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Okay, we'd like to welcome everyone to
the uh planning commission meeting this

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evening, August 25th, uh 2026. We'll go
ahead and start with a pledge of

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allegiance by myself and then a roll
call uh by Haley.

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» I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to theublic

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for which it stands, one nation under
God, indivisible, with liberty and

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justice for all.

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» Commissioner Shelley Baldley,
>> present. Commissioner Scott Justinson

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» present.
>> Commissioner Heidi Murdoch excused. Uh

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Chairman Justin Wright
>> here.

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» And Council Member Mark Cotrail
>> here.

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» Okay. Uh we'll [clears throat] open the
floor up uh to any public comments that

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anybody might have. They'd like to
address the planning commission this

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evening.
>> I wasn't Here

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you go.

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» Frank 980 road. Uh I think the interest
in the city right now is why this

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position to be worried about the
timeliness of aance.

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Oh, sorry.

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» [laughter]

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[laughter]
>> There you go.

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» Business. Um I my understanding is the
state actually passed the requirement

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for us to have that ordinance in place
by October 1st. Clear back before March

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and we're now finally discussing it at
this level. Uh, and if you look at the

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timeline, that means there's going to be
very little opportunity for any input

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from the citizens of Fruit Heights, and
I think that's a real concern on

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everybody's part. I likewise would like
to raise the question seriously about

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the R3 zone, how that was presented to
the planning commission clear back last

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March to make modifications on that.
There was actually a red line document

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and nothing has ever been done. And now
we're finding ourselves in another

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situation like that. So, I just would
raise both those questions with you

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folks. Hopefully they'll get addressed
tonight.

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» Thank you.

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» Any any others? Anybody [clears throat]
else interested in uh making a public

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comment?

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Okay. Um, seeing nobody else, we will go
ahead and move on to uh review and

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approve the planning commission me uh
minutes from the July 28, 2026 meeting.

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» Justin, let's do the swearing in first.
>> Okay.

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» And then we can continue on and
everybody can be

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» okay.
So, well, we'll go ahead and um so Ken,

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everyone, this is Ken Bagley. Kellen's
been um I don't know the right word.

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He's a new planning commission member.
Um, this is his first meeting. So, we're

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excited to have him. And, uh, the city
will do your swearing in.

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» Okay.
Where do you want me?

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So I state
>> I Ken Bagley

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» swear that I will support the
Constitution

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» do solemnly swear that I will support
defend and obey the Constitution

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» of the United States of America
>> of the United States of America

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» and the Constitution of the State of
Utah

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» and the Constitution of the State of
Utah

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» and that I will discharge the duties of
my office

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» and that I will discharge the
the duties of my office with fidelity.

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» Okay,
>> you got it.

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» Congratulations, Kellen. We're excited
to have you uh on the commission to to

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join us. So,
>> thank you.

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» Okay, we'll go ahead and move on to uh
review and approve the planning

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commission minutes uh from our July
28th, 2026 meeting.

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There any any comments
or any any red lines to those minutes?

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Um I did give Haley a couple um this
evening. They were just uh grammatical

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uh and spelling in nature, but nothing
that substantively changed anything.

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Any

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thoughts on the
>> a lot of minutes?

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» There was a I think that was the longest
uh minutes we've had since I've been

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» participating. Yeah.
>> When I read through it, it it appeared

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that that was accurate.
>> Um the best that I could remember on

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those.
>> Yeah.

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» Um we we'll need a a motion to uh
approve the minutes. I'll make a motion

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that we approve the minutes of planning
commission meeting July 28, 2026.

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» I guess second on that.
>> I'll second.

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» Second. And what what's the right
terminology? Is it all

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» in?
>> All in favor? All in favor say yes.

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» Yes.
>> Yes.

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» Okay.
>> Any opposed? No. Okay.

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Um we'll go ahead and move on to
planning commission business then. Uh so

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we've uh addressed uh 6.1 and so we'll
move on to 6.2

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uh reviewing MIH strategies.

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[clears throat]

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Okay. Um,
welcome Mr. Bagley to the planning

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commission.
Thank you.

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Um,
so I think it was a couple of meetings

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ago that we talked about the um,
moderate income housing strategies and

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I've been doing some work on that and
wanted to bring that back for another

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discussion. Remember, ultimately we're
trying to send a recommendation to the

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city council on um what the recommended
strategies would be for the moderate

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income housing plan.
So, let's see. There's one, two, three,

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four, five, six, seven, eight items.
eight different items that the planning

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commission identified it last time we
talked about that could be a

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possibility, things that we could um um
that could be considered and and um

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for for the city to uh look at. Um, I'm
just going to start with um what I think

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should be our top the top uh uh items to
look at and the reasons why and then we

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can go down the list from there. Um
remember and this will be new

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information you know for for you. We are
required as a city to have at least

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three um
three of the strategies. We have to have

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at least three strategies that are
required by the state out of I think

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there's like 25 different strategies we
three of them we have to we we have to

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man we have to identify in our general
plan and we have to identify how we're

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going to implement and work on these
strategies

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and I'll remind you also that in our
current general plan the three

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strategies that we have identified well
they're in the general plan but in the

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yearly report we're required to to file
a yearly report July 1st of each year

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saying how are you doing on the
identified strategies so we the the

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three strategies we have right now are A
and F that's what we identified in our

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last re re report which was due in July
of

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July of 26, we just simply had to file a
report stating how many new residential

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units we built in the city.
So next July, what we're talking about

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right now is what's going to happen
between now and next July. So just keep

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that in mind. Next July, we will have to
report on whatever we've done.

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So strategy A, which is reszone for
densities necessary to facilitate

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facilitate the production of moderate
income housing. That's currently one of

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the ones we've picked and also in my
mind one of the ones that is going to be

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the easiest to um
um to uh to meet. Um

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this was the discussion at our last
meeting. The planning commission

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discussed that the city's adoption of
the R16 zoning and noted that approving

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the future R16 or R3 developments would
demonstrate continued progress toward

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implementing the strategy. Staff noted
that while a previous higher density

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project did not move forward, the
project failed due to private

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development factors rather than city's
actions.

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So, if the city approved
one or both of the

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um proposed um the current proposed
projects that were recently brought in

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for reszone request,
if if you approved one or both of those,

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you have met this requirement.
So, if the city ultimately decides to

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approve one or both of those projects in
in some kind of format,

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um you would meet that strategy. That
seems like a no-brainer to me right off

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the bat is that you could do that and um
that is showing that um that um you're

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reasonzoning uh for higher density
projects. So, in my mind, that one's one

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that you keep it on the plan.
If the the either or both of those plans

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move forward, um you've met that
requirement, it's easy to demonstrate

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that. C
>> can I ask?

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» Yeah. So, [clears throat] just a
question just to confirm. So even if the

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units that are theoretically if it if
resone gets approved and those units um

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do not qualify at a sales price level to
be medium income housing, this still

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shows um that we're trying and basically
the city gets credit. Is that correct?

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» We're making an effort. Yeah. We will
leave it up to the state to ultimately

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say yay or nay on whether or not it
meets their definition of the

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requirement, but it shows that we're
making the effort.

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» Yeah.
>> And I think that's the important piece.

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» Okay.
>> Excuse me. Is there any precedent on

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what decisions the state has made in
other areas regarding the cost of the

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homes that are built under this, you
know, reszoning where they've said,

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"Okay, the cost of the homes is a little
high, but we're going to give you the

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credit." Um,
that's a good question. I think the

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answer to that to my knowledge is no.
There is not a precedent saying that um

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that um that that is the case. But I
wanted to this is probably a good time

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to talk about this. I I I wanted to to
discuss what that threshold is just so

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you understand it.
I've made previous comments that it's

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going to be
uh [sighs] did I forget that paper

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that it's going to be very difficult to
meet those numbers? Um it's going to be

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very difficult if not impossible. And
I've had some recent discussions with

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some developers about it. Um I still
maintain that it's

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I I mean at some level you could do it,
but I I I'll tell you this is what you

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have to do to meet the affordable
housing criteria as it sits now. First

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of all, it's based on the county's Davis
County median income. The highest number

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that I can find that that's comes from a
legitimate source is $118,000.

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many other there there are other
legitimate sources that put it closer to

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like 108 to 110. So the higher that
number is obviously the higher the home

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value that would qualify, right? So
let's just take 118,000.

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80% of that is 94,400.

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That's the That's the That's the
household income that a household

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uh
can make

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and be able to afford an a home.
So, I if if you're if you live in a

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household that makes $94,000 and you can
afford a home, you're considered to be

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in an affordable housing unit. Let's
break that down a little bit further.

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Now, the state requires that a maximum
of 30% of your income can be spent on

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housing. So, if you take 30% of that,
that's 20 $2,360

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a month. That's the nut. That's the
number. That's your that that that's

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your that's your monthly expense on what
you can um realistically spend on a home

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and meet their guidelines.
>> What was that number again? Sorry.

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$2,360.
Now, then now let's break that number

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down. That includes principal and
interest. It includes

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uh insurance, taxes, and utilities. All
of those things have to be factored into

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it.
When we were originally talking about

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this, we were talking about this number
somewhere, this home value somewhere in

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the neighborhood of 400,000. No, it's
way off when you calculate all those

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other pieces into it. The the the um the
insurance, the utilities, the the taxes,

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and I've estimated those things to be on
average $710 a month. Um broken down by

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uh insurance is 150, taxes are 260,
utilities are 300, and at a 6.6% 6%

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interest rate. 2360 a month buys you a
$260,000 home. Okay, that's the number.

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That's the number right now. And that's
countywide. Doesn't matter if you live

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in Fruit Heights or you live in Clinton.
That's the number that's considered an

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affordable housing unit. There aren't
anything there there there there's not

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there there's barely anything out there
for sale at that price. So, now

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let's bring this back to this discussion
about

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um how do you get to affordable housing
in in in the city? In talking to some

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developers now, they're saying
with the price of property, with the

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price of ground in in in in fruit
heights and construction costs, so on

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and so forth, they said
we're $250,000

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per door to just build the structure.
So just the cost of the materials to

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build the building is nearly at the
number we are trying to sell the

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building at the whole thing. That
doesn't include the price of the

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property. That doesn't not include the
utility installation and bringing

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utilities and all that to the property
and installing all those things. That's

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just the cost of the construction of the
unit. 250,000 a door. Can can you

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provide some more details on what
250,000 buys you?

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» How big is the house? How many bedrooms?
How many bathrooms? Is that kind of an

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average?
>> That that would be an average of like a

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twobedroom unit. Um let let um
he said let um

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1600 to 2200 square ft two-bedroom unit.
Um,

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so
I asked the question, what

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um what kind of density do you need?
This is going to this is going to be

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part of our R3 discussion. Now, what
kind of density do you need to make to

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be able to sell $260,000
units?

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and he said well over 30 units per acre
probably closer to 40 units per acre. So

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our R3 currently the maximum that we do
is the maximum we allow is 25.

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» And this the the one of the project
developers is saying that is the

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absolutely bare minimum
that I can swallow and make this thing

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pencil
is what it is at 20 proposed at 25 units

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an acre. So if you're at 10 15,
you're going backwards probably. Now

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this is a small sample size, right? I
mean, we've I I I've talked to two or

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three different developers. Um you you
could probably get a myriad of answers

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on that. The bottom line is is that um
if we have an intent as a city to do

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some affordable housing or try and get
homes that are in an affordable housing

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range, we are going to have to keep that
density number up there somewhere

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somewhere. Just keep that in mind. Now,
let's say this.

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If
you could use the city's median income,

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which is 140,000, almost $141,000
instead of the county median income of

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118.
Now you've pushed that number to 300,000

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a $300,000 unit. That
that objective is reachable to these

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developers that are proposing projects
in our city. Now they're saying not all

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of them, but we could get a few of them
[clears throat]

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close to that number. 260, no, 300 to
325ish

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probably.
So,

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one of the things that I think we go
back to the state with, and this is goes

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back to uh your question, Justin, is
that,

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you know, if you look at this in terms
of like I if you'll allow us to use the

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city's median income, household income,
we're

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we can probably do some things with
that. We can probably do some things

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with that.
That's currently not what the law says,

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but um that's part of the argument that
you make back to them is that well,

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we're making an effort and we're
probably in line with what value should

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be in our city. Um
so that that's just some commentary.

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That's just some commentary.
Um,

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if
strategy A, if we can figure out how to

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make these projects work,
that's that we've met that we've met

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that requirement. Um, that that that
that seems like something that we should

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um we should keep on the table.
Okay. Strategy E, which is

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» Sorry, before we get on, can I ask one
more question? Sure.

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» Is the cost of the development based on
what we've learned so far, is it so high

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based primarily on land prices?
>> Yes.

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» Is it building costs or is it the the
profit the developers want to make?

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» Uh
land and building are expensive. Okay.

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Everybody knows that. But what I'm being
told is that the extreme cost, the

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extreme value of land in this city,
>> thank you. It's very high. And so that

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is dominating the affordability
discussion.

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You you can buy and and it's not just
Fruit Heights. You can throw Cisville

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00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:54,960
and you can throw Farmington and
portions of Leighton into that same

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00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:58,400
discussion. Bountiful, put them
Bountiful and Centerville. Put them in

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the same discussion. It's high
everywhere. there you can get you start

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00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:10,799
to get a little more affordability when
you get out on the west side of the

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county. Syracuse, Clinton, West Point,
and I'm saying a little bit cheaper, not

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drastically.
It's just high everywhere, but it's

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particularly high in this city. and and
that is stated as one of the reasons,

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00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:35,039
hey, I got to pay this guy
X amount per acre for this property that

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really affects my bottom line.
>> That's probably a true statement. We've

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heard that over and over and over
>> and I think a number of you can attest

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to that effect.
>> Yeah, Jeeoff, if I may, also to back up

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what you're saying to Ken is that is the
number one cost in development. not only

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00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:57,200
the what you pay for raw land, it's the
improvements to that land. And uh going

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00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,360
back to what you're saying, the
criteria, they came up with this number

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00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:05,760
of 30,000
um

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00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:09,600
or 30% is what the ratio they've come
up. They figure you is the maximum you

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00:24:07,919 --> 00:24:13,360
can put in for housing and expenses, a
debt to income ratio for for a

260
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,000
mediumriced
uh buyer in our area.

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00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,640
I'm wondering where that number came
from because that's not the number the

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00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:28,080
the maximum number. If any buyer is out
there getting an FHA or VA loan, you can

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00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:32,400
be at 36% which is realistic and
conventionally can actually be up to

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00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:36,559
50%. So I'm wondering who's deciding to
put that number so far down that it

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00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:41,919
makes it very difficult for the cities
to come up with this kind of a plan. And

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00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,440
once again too to say what Jeff is
saying on these two proposals projects

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00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:49,440
that we have in our city right now. We
have I know one of the developers has

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00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:54,080
committed to put some of the units as
far down as he can to see if it can

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00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:58,720
qualify for that amount. Um other one I
don't know. So

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00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:02,480
the the the first answer to your
question is that's a question we got to

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00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:11,600
ask the state legislature. They're the
ones that set that that bar at 30% of

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00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:16,000
housing for um they set that number.
That's the number that they have set.

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00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,080
» And I agree with you what you just said
about uh and Justin brought this up.

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It's it's vastly different from city to
city what the medium income is. And so

275
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,000
it affects what housing costs in that
area. So I think the argument is very

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00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:34,240
legitimate to go back and say our medium
income here is 140 plus. we need to

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00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,840
raise that amount up to meet our demand
here, not somewhere else.

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00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:44,159
» And other cities are saying the same
thing. They're saying this doesn't make

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00:25:39,679 --> 00:25:51,200
any sense to to make high value areas,
higher value areas use a counties a

280
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:57,200
county median income. Let us use the
median income in our city. Um we'll have

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00:25:54,799 --> 00:26:01,120
a better shot. It it's more
proportionate.

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00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:07,440
Um,
so I I I mean, but we are where we're at

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00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:11,520
right now. This could all change in
January and February of next year. We

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00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:16,000
don't know. That's just where we're at
right now. Um, that that that's what

285
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:22,559
we're facing.
Um, I know that I've in the people that

286
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:31,720
I've talked to, I said, "Can you hit
that 260 number?" Not in this city. Not

287
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:31,720
in this city. No. maybe 300.

288
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:41,440
Um, so that's just that that that's some
background. Anything else on that before

289
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:45,840
I move on? So, strategy E is uh create
or allow for and reduce regulations

290
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:51,440
related to internal or detached
accessory dwelling units in residential

291
00:26:47,919 --> 00:26:59,919
zones. We're already mandated to
uh create an external ADU ordinance. So

292
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:06,480
strategy should just automatically be
forwarded. We we create the ordinance.

293
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:12,960
We have complied with that request for
the year. So that that one's the easiest

294
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:18,799
one to we we have to do it anyway. So
why not just keep that on the list of

295
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:22,960
things now? Now now you've met possibly
two of the three that you're required

296
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:27,600
to.
Um

297
00:27:25,679 --> 00:27:34,159
number three
is strategy F. Uh zone or reszone for

298
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:39,919
higher density or moderate income
residential development in commercial or

299
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:45,039
mixeduse zones near major transit
investment corridors, commercial centers

300
00:27:41,919 --> 00:27:50,559
or employment centers. Now granted that
we don't have number one mixeduse zones.

301
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:57,200
We have very little in the way of
commercial. We have a little bit. We

302
00:27:53,440 --> 00:28:01,760
don't have we we we have a major transit
uh corridor on Highway 89. Um but we

303
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:08,320
don't have much in the way of employment
centers. So I want to read what our

304
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:15,480
general plan says about strategy F and
why that is probably still pretty valid.

305
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,480
Um,

306
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:30,120
so this is what we said in about
strategy F in our in our last report.

307
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:49,840
Okay, so Fruit Heights has plans to zone
or reszone for higher density or

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00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:54,320
moderate income residential development
in commercial or mixeduse zones near

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00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:58,799
major transit investment corridors,
commercial centers or employment

310
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,960
centers. Fruit Heights City's general
plan, zoning map, and transportation

311
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:10,000
plan encourage development around
transit corridors and commercial centers

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00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:14,159
access by Main Street, US 89, and I-15.
The city, this is this is the this is

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00:29:12,399 --> 00:29:19,440
the important part. The city has
identified a number of vacant parcels

314
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:23,360
that it will consider as locations
um to implement a new zoning

315
00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:27,919
classification that targets higher
density housing. Incentives geared to

316
00:29:25,919 --> 00:29:33,120
encourage higher density may include
higher density deed restrictions and

317
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:37,520
waiver of impact fees. Um this was our
implementation goal. We will work with

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00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:41,840
developers to modify infrastructure and
lot size requirements. We will hold a

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00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:46,320
work session with the planning
commission and city council to identify

320
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:52,320
densitive incentives for new development
in the city and and create a toolkit and

321
00:29:50,159 --> 00:29:58,559
resource guide for developers that
included guidance based on work session

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00:29:55,039 --> 00:30:01,840
feedback. This is what we did.
So far, there have been a number of work

323
00:30:00,159 --> 00:30:06,399
sessions with the planning commission to
identify areas in the city that would be

324
00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:10,480
appropriate for higher density zoning.
When the process is finished, the city

325
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:14,880
intends to modify the general plan and
identify on a map areas that should be

326
00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:21,120
considered for higher density zoning.
Um, you remember when we had a number of

327
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:26,880
these discussions and we actually went
in on a map and identified uh some areas

328
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:31,200
that collectively that we thought, you
know, could be considered for this. And

329
00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:38,000
we even broke some of those down into
saying maybe this is R3 an R3 area,

330
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:44,320
maybe this is an R16 area. And and we
did some of that work. In my mind, if we

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00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:49,760
finish that work, we have met that
requirement. We have largely met that

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00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,960
requirement. And because we've already
committed to do it and we're partway

333
00:30:51,760 --> 00:31:00,000
down that road, it would seem to me to
let's finish that. It doesn't mean that

334
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,760
you're going to develop any of those
properties. It doesn't mean you're going

335
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:10,399
to reszone them. It says we've
identified areas that could be high d

336
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:18,399
higher density areas in the city. That
to me makes a lot of sense. So I would

337
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:25,120
recommend that that stay on the list and
be one of the top priorities for

338
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:33,279
furthering that work and uh meeting that
requirement. If we chose those three,

339
00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:37,120
it's a matter of just implementing what
we said we were going to do as we've

340
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:42,559
described here tonight. We don't have to
change anything. Anything else that we

341
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:48,559
implement is going to have to be amended
and included in the general plan. So the

342
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:55,840
fourth thing that out of this list of
eight that I think is is worth taking a

343
00:31:51,919 --> 00:32:02,880
serious look at is O.
And let me read that to you.

344
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:08,080
This was essentially Eileen Moss's idea
and I think it has some merit.

345
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:12,720
So, it says, "Apply for or partner with
an entity that applies for state or

346
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:17,279
federal funds or tax incentives to
promote the construction of modern

347
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:22,720
income housing. An entity that applies
for programs offered by the Utah Housing

348
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:27,279
Corporation within the Utah Housing
Corporation's funding capacity. An

349
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:31,279
entity that applies for affordable
housing programs administered by the

350
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:35,360
Department of Workforce Services. An
entity that applies for affordable

351
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:41,279
housing programs administered by the
association of governments established

352
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:47,279
by an interlocal agreement. Uh an entity
that applies for services provided uh by

353
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:52,480
a public housing authority to preserve
and create moderate income housing or

354
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,799
any other entity that applies for
programs or services that promotes the

355
00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:01,919
construction or preservation of moderate
income housing. That's the That's the

356
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:07,279
the
um that's the description. So, here's an

357
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:14,480
idea.
Um

358
00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:21,360
um Eileen's idea was that we could maybe
go to another city that is building or

359
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:26,880
implementing some kind of high density
project and partner with them with some

360
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:34,000
kind of financial obligation on behalf
of the city.

361
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:39,120
Um, I had a conversation with um,
uh, one of the county's

362
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:45,840
guys that works on all kinds of things
affordable housing wise. And we have

363
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:56,320
right now we have a grant program by
which um we will grant up to $50,000

364
00:33:51,760 --> 00:34:02,720
for a new homeowner to buy an affordable
housing unit somewhere in the county. So

365
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:09,359
that's up to $50,000. It it could be
less than that. It might be 25 35, but

366
00:34:06,159 --> 00:34:15,599
it's up to 50. I talked to him about
this thing today and he said, "Yeah,

367
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:20,720
we would be interested in having that
conversation." Let's just say, for

368
00:34:17,919 --> 00:34:27,760
instance, that the city said, "We'll
commit $100,000 a year for five years."

369
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:32,159
That would pay for two
grants

370
00:34:29,359 --> 00:34:37,919
for two homeowners to buy an affordable
housing

371
00:34:33,919 --> 00:34:42,320
um uh home somewhere in the county.
And it it could be anywhere in the

372
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:50,000
county or
each one of those homeowners is

373
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:57,119
presently required to um put down a 25%
of the cost of the home on on for for

374
00:34:53,119 --> 00:35:04,240
the project. The city's money could help
offset their 25%. So, you could say,

375
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:10,160
"Well, we'll give 10 people $10,000 to
help offset their 25% down payment."

376
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:16,160
There could be a myriad of options that
you could do to stretch that money

377
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:22,320
around. But the the the idea here is
that you're promoting

378
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:27,040
affordable housing efforts somewhere in
this county. Not necessarily your city

379
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:33,040
and probably not likely your city, but
somewhere in this county. And

380
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:38,560
I believe that that meets that
requirement

381
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:44,000
and I think that that is certainly worth
an effort to try and go down that road

382
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:48,480
in some form or fashion.
Um

383
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:53,280
that could be a fourth option. It could
replace one of the other three options

384
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:59,760
that we previously talked about.
Um, so I I think there's I I I I think

385
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:04,880
there's definitely some some validity in
in that if that's if the city wants to

386
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:11,280
make some kind of financial commitment.
Um, I just use this as an example of

387
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:16,079
this this this grant program that's, you
know, out there right now. There there

388
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:23,680
there may be other things and and other
opportunities out there.

389
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:30,800
The other four which is B, C, I, and M
are all going to need some significant

390
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:36,800
amount of steel research and work. I
just want to read what they are. So B is

391
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:41,680
um
demonstrate investment in rehabilitation

392
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:46,720
or expansion of infrastructure that
facilitates the construction of moderate

393
00:36:43,359 --> 00:36:54,760
income housing. So, we're talking about
water, sewer, storm drains, utilities,

394
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,760
uh, road building,

395
00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:02,960
somehow tying an infrastructure project
to leading it to the construction of

396
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:10,320
modern income housing. That's going to
be pretty difficult to That's going to

397
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:14,880
be pretty difficult to to do it. It just
I I mean we're going to build a road

398
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:18,720
that only benefits moderate income
housing people. That's going to be

399
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:24,400
pretty hard to do in this city, but it's
still one that we identified as one that

400
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:32,400
we could look into further. I just think
it's going to be hard to do it. Um

401
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:37,200
C demonstrate investment in the
rehabilitation of existing uninhabitable

402
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:42,320
housing stock into moderate income
housing. So, the idea here is you take

403
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:48,079
old housing stock and you rehabilitate
it and you bring it up to current

404
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:54,400
standards and those units are selling
for um moderate income housing. Again,

405
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:59,760
one, I don't know how much of that
housing we have in this city. Probably

406
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:05,760
very little. I don't think we've got a
lot of vacant houses. Number two,

407
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:11,920
it's going to be difficult given the
value of property in this city to make

408
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:18,720
those houses into affordable. I mean,
you're going to have to get the owner to

409
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:24,400
agree to basically something worth well
less than what it's the market value of

410
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:30,480
that property really is. So again, that
one is going to be difficult.

411
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,599
What would it take to find out what our
stock on homes like that?

412
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:41,160
» Uh, I don't know. Darren, you got any
thoughts about that? How How many vacant

413
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,160
homes do we have that are like run down?

414
00:38:43,839 --> 00:38:50,320
» I I Yeah. I I mean,
>> we could look into that a little bit. I

415
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,040
mean, I just don't honestly just don't
know. But I think the number is probably

416
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:56,480
really low.
>> Yeah, for sure.

417
00:38:54,640 --> 00:39:01,760
Whereas some other cities, you take
Clearfield City for example, there's

418
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:10,000
dozens of homes
that are in that category.

419
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:15,280
Um I, strategy I is amend land use
regulations to allow for single room

420
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:20,320
occupancy development. So this is
renting out a single room in a home. Um

421
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:26,160
again,
that is a strategy. It's one that

422
00:39:23,359 --> 00:39:33,440
traditionally is not popular with
neighbors and other people that live in

423
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:38,960
the neighborhood. Um, it is would take a
lot of thought and effort to to craft

424
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:45,040
something that would be acceptable to
the public. So, it's a possibility, but

425
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:49,680
one that is going to need a lot more
work than, you know, what we know about

426
00:39:47,839 --> 00:39:56,400
right now.
Remember,

427
00:39:51,839 --> 00:40:00,880
you're you already have internal ADUs,
so you can rent out your whole basement

428
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:06,720
to somebody. Now, we're going to have
external ADUs. You can rent out a

429
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:11,839
detached dwelling in your backyard. Now,
do you on top of that want to allow

430
00:40:09,359 --> 00:40:16,800
rented rooms in addition to those two
things? That's a lot.

431
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:23,040
» But is that is that the intent of this?
To me, when I read that, it sounded more

432
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:26,880
like like a um not a hotel, but for one
of a better word, something like a hotel

433
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,400
where like with seniors, for example, a
boarding home or something like that

434
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:34,720
where it's it has more density in it.
There's 50 rooms in one building where

435
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:40,640
seniors can rent a room, assisted living
type situation. That's that's what I

436
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:46,960
» You may be correct. I I don't have the
the absolute definition of what that is,

437
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:51,280
but I know what you're saying. And that
is maybe another road we could go down

438
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:53,200
where you say, "Okay, we're going to
build

439
00:40:53,003 --> 00:40:57,680
» [clears throat]
>> uh let's just call it an apartment

440
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:01,200
complex for lack of a better word, and
we're going to rent this to um elderly

441
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:03,040
people."
>> Um

442
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:06,079
» yeah,
>> because is this is the term, am I am I

443
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,839
remembering right, the term for
something like like what you're speaking

444
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:13,760
about is an SRO, right? like a single
resident there's a I can't remember what

445
00:41:11,359 --> 00:41:17,119
the acronym is but there's a shared
kitchen and multiple people in

446
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:24,640
residential spaces
>> you share a kitchen you share uh

447
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:26,720
restroom facilities but basically
>> individual has their own room

448
00:41:26,408 --> 00:41:31,760
[clears throat]
>> yeah okay

449
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:36,800
» that by the way is currently not allowed
in our city code we would have to amend

450
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:43,680
our code to go down that road
>> so that's just something to think about

451
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:49,280
um and then the last one was M
demonstrate creation of or participation

452
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:54,720
in a community land trust program for
moderate income housing. Um

453
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:59,359
the commission discussed the concept of
establishing the community land trust

454
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:04,640
but agreed it would require willing land
donations and was not a practical option

455
00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:09,440
for Fruit Height City at this time but
we still left it on the list of

456
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:15,119
possibilities. Um, again, that would
take a lot of work and a lot of

457
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:21,040
cooperation on not only the city's
behalf, but private land owners behalfs

458
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:26,319
and those kinds of things. So,
those seem like distant things that need

459
00:42:24,319 --> 00:42:34,400
a lot of
work to bring to fruition.

460
00:42:29,359 --> 00:42:38,640
Um, I think the top four are the obvious
top four.

461
00:42:36,319 --> 00:42:45,040
And um,
so what what questions do you have? What

462
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:49,680
discussion do you want to have? Um, what
do you want what what additional

463
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,960
research would you like to see at this
point? C

464
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:56,640
» can I ask? So the the
I believe the ask of the planning

465
00:42:54,560 --> 00:43:06,160
commission is to come up with a minimum
of three strategies to recommend to the

466
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:11,680
um city council for implementation
between now and next July or this July.

467
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:16,560
Is that correct?
>> Well, we will have to report on these

468
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:21,760
things by next July. So yeah,
>> we need to be working on them between

469
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:26,400
now and then. So I think the expectation
of the city council is that we would

470
00:43:23,359 --> 00:43:31,839
bring something to them in September.
>> Yeah. So basically it's a recommendation

471
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:34,079
between to the to the city council what
what do we want to work on between now

472
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,680
and July?
>> Yeah.

473
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:42,160
» Is that correct? Okay. So just to
clarify that couple couple questions I

474
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:45,280
had um on the identify areas for
potential reszone just to clarify was

475
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,359
that
>> this is strategy A right? No, this is

476
00:43:47,839 --> 00:43:51,920
the third one you presented.
>> Okay, this is strategy F

477
00:43:51,359 --> 00:43:55,839
» F.
>> Zone or reszone for higher density or

478
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,760
moderate income housing.
>> Okay.

479
00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:01,440
» Is that right?
>> I that that's what I was clarifying.

480
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,480
» That's that's the third one we talked
about.

481
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:07,280
» Okay.
>> So, this is identifying the areas in the

482
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:14,000
city that could be considered for
>> pension. And as far as like compliance,

483
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:18,000
um where what structure would that
identification happen? Is that just

484
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:22,160
because it's not going to be on the
general plan.

485
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:27,839
» Well, the idea is is that we would put
that in the general plan and say we have

486
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:32,640
identified that because
the strategies are already in the

487
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:38,000
general plan. So, if you're going to
create as part of the strategy, you're

488
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:41,359
going to create a map
>> that shows higher density, you'd want to

489
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:48,319
put that in the general plan.
>> Yeah. Okay. And then just for

490
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:52,880
clarification, if that were to happen on
the general plan and a piece of property

491
00:44:51,280 --> 00:45:00,319
was
um listed on this map as a higher

492
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:04,400
density zone and a owner of that
property were to come before the

493
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:10,240
planning commission and request a
different zone,

494
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:15,119
would that go that's not what's listed
in the general plan

495
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:19,599
That wouldn't would that be would that
follow kind of procedure?

496
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,480
» Can you do that? You're asking could you
do that?

497
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:24,240
» Yes,
>> absolutely.

498
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:25,520
» We we've got to we've got to make one
thing clear.

499
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:31,040
» Yeah.
>> Um general plans are not mandatory.

500
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:35,599
You've heard in some recent public
hearings differently. That's absolutely

501
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:40,400
not true. General plans are
discretionary. They are not mandatory.

502
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,720
There are numerous examples in this city
where property has been reszoned that

503
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:50,000
was not identified at that as that zone
in the general plan. So

504
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:56,960
that's the beauty of it. That's the
beauty of that um that strategy is that

505
00:45:54,400 --> 00:46:03,280
you're not held to any standard. You're
not it's not a mandatory thing. You

506
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:08,240
don't have to do this. it it's if all
the pieces fall into place and if

507
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:12,319
somebody some property owner or some
developer comes along and says I want to

508
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:17,440
do something different and the city and
they can convince the city that this

509
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,640
different thing is a better thing go for
it.

510
00:46:18,319 --> 00:46:22,480
» Okay.
>> The property right behind us right here

511
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:27,680
was all zone commercial.
>> It's now an R18 zone with homes with

512
00:46:25,359 --> 00:46:33,040
nice homes on it.
So, so one more question I had um

513
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:38,000
strategy I that was discussed um to
amend land use regulations to allow for

514
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:43,680
single room occupancy developments to
Shel's comment about

515
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:49,680
um senior care facilities
>> if so I just pulled up the C1 zone and

516
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:54,880
C1 currently doesn't discuss that at all
but it has it has light manufacturing

517
00:46:51,839 --> 00:47:01,599
and restaurants and that sort of thing.
If we were to update C1 zone to add in

518
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:07,667
the possibility for a senior care, would
that meet do we believe that would meet

519
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:10,880
strategy I
[sighs]

520
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:14,560
» andor increase density really per acre?
Right.

521
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:19,839
» I I I I don't know. I I mean, it's it's
hard to say that right now. It's it it

522
00:47:17,359 --> 00:47:24,240
it it it it it's like I said, that's
going to take some

523
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:28,800
» some research and some looking into and
some vetting. I that that's a hard

524
00:47:27,119 --> 00:47:32,880
question to answer right now.
>> Yeah, I think that's fair. I I wouldn't

525
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,839
be opposed to that myself. I mean, if
>> Yeah,

526
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:41,839
» every care facility every senior care
facility around is very nice right in in

527
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:45,280
the area. And if you're going to put a
>> light manufacturing next door to

528
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:47,200
somebody or a senior care facility,
you're going to have a little more

529
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:53,280
you're going to have more traffic with a
senior care facility. But

530
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:58,839
I think that would go over easier in the
city than potentially something else.

531
00:47:55,839 --> 00:47:58,839
» So,

532
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,440
okay.
>> Well, I think we've said this before.

533
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,440
There's a lot of talk about bringing
young families in for first-time home

534
00:48:05,359 --> 00:48:10,960
buying, but what about all of the
housing stock that is held up for people

535
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:14,160
who want to retire and sell and move
into a senior or or smaller units?

536
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,960
» There's nowhere for them to go
>> within the city. Yeah. So, there's

537
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:19,520
nowhere for them to go and this might be
a possible

538
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,000
» solution to that.
>> I I agree.

539
00:48:25,119 --> 00:48:35,440
Justin, to answer your question about
commercial zones, C2, you could probably

540
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:40,480
um put the that kind of building in um
because it's a multifamily

541
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:43,040
or multi-family unit or or whatever. So,
you could probably do that in a C2 zone.

542
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:48,000
» Okay.
>> Um where C1 is more of your

543
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:52,800
manufacturing and those kind of things.
>> Okay.

544
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:59,520
» Um just one more comment about that,
Justin.

545
00:48:53,920 --> 00:49:05,599
um in my mind I mean it's better to get
zoning matched up with the proper land

546
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:10,000
uses. So rather than put it rather than
do that in a commercial zone, I'd say

547
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:14,960
you take like your R3 zone and amend
that to allow that kind of thing there.

548
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:20,800
So you're matching uses. The zoning is
matched up with the land use.

549
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:25,839
But that that's that that that's just a
you know I mean that's just maybe that's

550
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:31,040
something that you do later.
>> Okay. If that if that was something that

551
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:37,680
the city said that's important to us to
create some senior living

552
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:43,599
» area then you go to work and say okay
how can we make that happen

553
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:49,280
» and I would be interested in in
what type of density what is the

554
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:54,559
definition of density in that situation
because I'm unsure right is they're not

555
00:49:51,359 --> 00:49:56,800
really condos they're not um owned by
the individual

556
00:49:55,359 --> 00:50:00,800
» well they Maybe they maybe they could
be,

557
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:03,520
» but you know, housing units per acre,
>> what does that mean for for something

558
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,680
like that?
>> Yeah. And and that's I mean, you lay out

559
00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:10,160
all those details.
>> Yeah.

560
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:15,760
» Um
I I mean, there's a

561
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:19,839
senior housing building right down here
in Farmington, right next to

562
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,760
Chick-fil-A. It's a big building.
>> Yeah.

563
00:50:20,319 --> 00:50:26,079
» I don't know how many units are in
there. And I don't know what the I I I

564
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:32,559
don't know what they are, whether
they're apartments or condos.

565
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:37,280
Um but um I mean that's probably an
example of what you're talking about on

566
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,079
a much larger scale.
>> We'd have a hard time fitting something

567
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,960
like that even in the city.
>> Yeah.

568
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:47,680
» Yeah. And not even that, right? But
you've got right here on Main Street in

569
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:49,280
Cisville, you've got Whisper Cove,
>> much smaller.

570
00:50:48,319 --> 00:50:51,520
» Yes. Like
>> that's something on a much smaller

571
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,480
scale.
>> Yeah. I mean it looks it looks like it

572
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,800
fits in with the neighborhood.
>> Yes. I I know the one you're talking

573
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:00,800
about.
>> Yeah.

574
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:06,000
» Yeah. So
>> I think did we do we discuss strategy V

575
00:51:03,599 --> 00:51:09,680
where it's create or allow for and
reduce regulations related to multif

576
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:14,559
family residential dwellings compat
compatible in scale and form with detach

577
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:20,559
single family residential dwellings and
located in walkable communities within

578
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:23,839
residential or mixed zones.
Seems as though that might be something

579
00:51:21,839 --> 00:51:30,400
that's pretty achievable here because of
the residential or mixed use zone

580
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,920
language.
>> Sorry. B

581
00:51:31,359 --> 00:51:33,920
» V.
>> Oh, V is in Victor.

582
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:38,559
» It's in Virginia.
>> Yeah, you're good.

583
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:41,760
» I mean, yeah. I I mean, we could we
could put that one on the list. I mean,

584
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:48,240
I could see how that could be
achievable. Um

585
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:55,040
um it's
>> create

586
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:58,319
» uh I mean it's very similar to
>> a

587
00:51:56,079 --> 00:52:06,000
» in the terms of what it accomplishes,
>> right? So, you could probably say you

588
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:11,920
could do that or you can do a um
but [clears throat] yeah, that is

589
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:15,680
probably something that you would, you
know, amend and incorporate into one of

590
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,640
your zones.
>> But certainly that that I mean that's

591
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:23,760
one we could add.
>> Is that just allowing like a duplex on a

592
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,920
lot that currently has a single family
residence on it?

593
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:30,400
» Possibly. That's what it seems like.
>> That's what it seems like.

594
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:37,960
» I mean, possibly. We already have.
>> Yeah.

595
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:37,960
» Yeah, that seems easy.

596
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:45,119
» Which strategy was that one?
>> The what you can't do

597
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:49,559
» the is in Virginia.
>> What you can't do is

598
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,240
» use

599
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,720
two different strategies.
You can't knock out two birds with one

600
00:52:57,599 --> 00:53:04,480
stone.
>> You You can't say that

601
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:11,680
You can't say that we're re we're
reszoning

602
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:16,559
property for higher density and say
these two strategies are both that same

603
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,680
thing. That counts as two. That's what
you does that make sense?

604
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:25,119
» Yeah. Yeah.
We're going to have to have three

605
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:33,680
separate strategies with three distinct
um programs related to them.

606
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:39,520
And a lot of these strategies are very
similar and parallel in nature.

607
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,520
It's just another way of saying the same
thing.

608
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:50,480
I I I know we talked about be the
infrastructure. Um, I know Kevin's

609
00:53:48,559 --> 00:53:53,119
comment before was
>> like, "Let the state tell us no,

610
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,400
» right?"
>> Yeah.

611
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,319
» Just try it.
>> Yeah.

612
00:53:54,800 --> 00:54:00,240
» Um,
I know we've talked about sewer being an

613
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:04,559
issue, you know, in the city. Um, I
think there's some I I believe there was

614
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:10,000
some discussion about upgrading some
areas. Maybe I'm wrong. Um, but I don't

615
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:15,119
know. I'd rather than I'd rather try it
and have them tell us no, right? and

616
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:19,440
then not try it. Especially because
there's no additional cost at this

617
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:25,520
point. It's just
to me it's a worthwhile venture.

618
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:34,800
» Yeah. Um yeah, that idea let the state
tell us no. Yeah. Okay. Um but remember,

619
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:38,559
we only need three. We don't need six.
>> Well, that's I guess I'd rather do that

620
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:43,760
than O.
>> To me, O I think is gonna I

621
00:54:41,839 --> 00:54:45,760
Um, I was going to there's a cost to
this.

622
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:49,359
» Well, there's a there's certainly a cost
associated to it.

623
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:55,280
» Yeah. And there's a potential multi-year
commitment and basically to me that's

624
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:59,040
like we're we're taking Fruit Heights
tax dollars and giving it to a different

625
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,720
city.
>> I just don't know, Justin. Let's say

626
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:08,319
that you're going to replace a sewer
line in just Mountain Road for instance.

627
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:14,079
How many how many sewer connections go
into that? How many of those people are

628
00:55:12,319 --> 00:55:19,760
living in a moderate income housing
home? None. I just don't know how we're

629
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:24,240
going to get to I just don't know how
we're going to make the numbers match.

630
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:30,640
Is any Can I ask is any just looking at
the Fruit Heights um zone map, it looks

631
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,440
like the property, right? So, if if it's
Mountain Road, are we upgrading sewer on

632
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,119
Mountain Road?
>> Well, I don't know. I don't think I

633
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:42,000
don't know where specifically. So, the
sewer systems owned by Central Davis and

634
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:46,319
and they have their plans of where they
would start upgrading. Um, and the city

635
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:50,079
itself is not.
>> Is it? Okay. So, we couldn't claim any

636
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:55,440
of that because it's not the city doing
it. It's the water district.

637
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:58,400
» Anything that we do has to lead to does
it lead to moderate income housing?

638
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,319
» Yeah.
>> Ownership.

639
00:56:00,319 --> 00:56:08,319
Um,
so I just think that infrastructure

640
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:11,520
thing is going to be very difficult to I
mean it's going to be very difficult to

641
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:16,760
prove. They're going to say, "Well,
prove it.

642
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,760
What' you do?"

643
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:25,200
I mean, and to me, just looking at it, I
mean, the create the EADU ordinance,

644
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:31,119
that's a no-brainer to me. We have to do
that. And I really like the idea of just

645
00:56:27,839 --> 00:56:36,480
adding senior care center somewhere into
one of the ordinances. To me, those are

646
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:40,000
two very simple check the box
and then we got to find a third.

647
00:56:38,319 --> 00:56:42,720
» Can I ask another question? I feel like
I've peppered you with a lot of

648
00:56:41,119 --> 00:56:48,720
questions. I got a lot to learn. So, I
apologize. But regarding F, I want

649
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:53,440
clarity on all that we're required to do
is identify

650
00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:58,319
a higher density area or do we have to
actually reszone for a higher density? I

651
00:56:56,079 --> 00:57:01,760
want to understand clearly is it just
identify? I know it says but

652
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:06,799
» zone or resone.
>> Okay, so it is zone or resone. It's not

653
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:13,440
as simple as just identifying it. Well,
um, the commitment that we made was that

654
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:17,680
we would identify, but it says zone or
reszone here. Here's the here's the

655
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:23,280
difficult part of your question. We
don't know what they're going to accept

656
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:30,319
or not accept. We make our best attempt
to put the put our best foot forward and

657
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:35,040
they will tell us they're what I can
tell you is that we are in compliance

658
00:57:33,359 --> 00:57:40,799
right now.
And the three things that we picked was

659
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:45,839
A, E, and F. If we know that we were in
compliance with those three things to

660
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:50,160
start with, it's easier to stay in
compliance with those three things. And

661
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:55,359
the thing that we haven't the only part
of F that we haven't complied with is is

662
00:57:53,359 --> 00:58:01,040
finishing this map and identifying these
areas. So, we're more likely to be in

663
00:57:58,799 --> 00:58:05,040
compliance with that than starting fresh
with something else. and we won't know

664
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:12,960
until you get a letter in the mail
saying no, denied. And that happened. We

665
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:17,599
we had to massage these things for
months to get our get the city in

666
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:21,040
compliance on some of the things that we
did.

667
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:25,760
It's not
what have you done in the past, it's

668
00:58:23,359 --> 00:58:33,280
what have you done lately.
So, it's it's nearly impossible to ask

669
00:58:28,799 --> 00:58:38,240
that question. What are the what is 1 2
3 4 the requirements? We don't know.

670
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:42,000
This is what we got. What you're reading
here, that's the Now, you can get on the

671
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:46,480
phone with these guys and say, "Would we
be okay if we do this?" And they'll

672
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:52,160
generally give you some some ideas.
They'll guarantee you nothing.

673
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:58,079
And listen,
there's plenty of rumor out there that

674
00:58:55,839 --> 00:59:03,359
this is likely this whole deck's likely
to get shuffled in the next legislative

675
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:08,240
in the next legislative session. So, we
should take that into consideration

676
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:13,680
knowing that we have very little time to
react after the legislative session is

677
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:20,000
ended in February and we've got a report
in July. We should be doing now what we

678
00:59:17,119 --> 00:59:23,680
think we is just an absolute slam dunk.
What's going to be the slam the three

679
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:27,599
things that we can just boom, we're
done. We did it. C

680
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:33,520
» can I ask may I follow up to Ken's
question earlier? Do we do we know of

681
00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:39,280
any cities that um the legislature has
said are not in compliance currently and

682
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:43,119
what have been the repercussions?
like what what if we come into the three

683
00:59:40,799 --> 00:59:46,559
easiest things and then we get a letter
from the state. This

684
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:52,240
» Justin I answer that. Right now all the
cities are in compliance. Um there's not

685
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:59,119
a city that isn't in compliance. They've
worked uh really well um with the cities

686
00:59:56,319 --> 01:00:05,520
of on their reporting. Uh like I said,
the first report that Jeff and I did, uh

687
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:10,960
I think we had three or four submitts.
Um, and they worked with us that whole

688
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:14,480
time till our report passed. Um,
>> so there was back and forth with

689
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:18,079
» there was Yeah, there was back and forth
after we sent it in. There was

690
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:24,559
» they worked with us. Yeah.
>> So, and right now um

691
01:00:22,319 --> 01:00:30,480
that is still what they say they're
willing to do is is work with cities to

692
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:34,160
help them be compliant. But part of the
process is you got to be showing an

693
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:39,280
action and you have to be doing
something.

694
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:44,480
» So I think for for one right a we've
we've had two we've had recently we've

695
01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:52,720
had two pieces of property come up for
reszone that like you said Jeeoff that's

696
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:58,400
a slam dunk. Two is e create an eu e au
ordinance which we have to do. Um, and

697
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:03,520
then I we our general plan currently
says that we're going to do F anyways.

698
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:11,200
» So, I think
that does seem easy. Um, I I'm sure

699
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:17,440
there will be um a lot of push back on
that um within the city, but current

700
01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:24,160
currently our general plan says we're
going to do that. I'm confident F can be

701
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:28,799
massaged to to be a compatible a
compatible use.

702
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:31,599
I'm sure that it probably can.
>> Okay.

703
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:36,559
» And that that they'll work with us.
Listen, they're they're already saying

704
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:42,079
that we've met the requirement. So now
it's a matter of what are you doing to

705
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:45,760
implement it?
>> So could we just present those like

706
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:50,000
those three?
>> Yeah.

707
01:01:47,359 --> 01:01:54,640
I I I I have concerns with O. I guess it
just doesn't feel right to me.

708
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:59,839
» Well, it's going to cost the city money.
>> Yeah, that's my concern.

709
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:06,160
» Um
um it seems like it's would be easy

710
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:10,559
enough to meet the requirement, but it's
going to cost the city money.

711
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:14,720
» Yeah, it's easy to write a check, but I
don't think it's I don't think it's the

712
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:21,520
right thing to do.
>> Okay. So Justin, just a just a reminder,

713
01:02:18,319 --> 01:02:28,640
the council um did ask the planning to
commission to come up with probably um

714
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:33,280
five to six uh strategies that they
>> and they're going to narrow it down.

715
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:37,760
» And then they've already kind of been
supposed to be researching as a council

716
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:42,640
member which ones they think that could
possibly be. And once they receive the

717
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:47,680
recommendation from the planning
commission on which ones they believe

718
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:51,680
that we can work forward and accomplish,
uh, then the council will start that

719
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:55,839
next process of saying, "All right, yes,
we think we can hit this one." Well,

720
01:02:54,079 --> 01:03:01,119
yeah, we're willing to donate money to
it or we're not willing to donate money.

721
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:05,680
Um, we have to remember, we can
recommend, yeah, there there could be a

722
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,799
financial cost to the city, but that's
all legislative. So that

723
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,599
» yeah,
>> they could turn around and say, "No, we

724
01:03:10,559 --> 01:03:14,240
don't want to do that one." Or they
could say, "Well, why didn't they give

725
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,799
us one with financial?"
>> Um,

726
01:03:15,039 --> 01:03:19,119
» so I I think
>> my recommendation to the planning

727
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:26,799
commission
>> is um pick seven of them that you could

728
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:32,400
feel comfortable with. We will send
those. Um, I mean, I have comments

729
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:38,000
written down. We've recorded comments
from the last meetings. Um we'll per

730
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:42,240
recommend here's the recommendation
these strategies and then we let the

731
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:47,119
council take the next step on that of
saying

732
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:50,280
which ones they think that they can also
work with.

733
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:59,839
If
the two projects fail, we'll need to

734
01:03:57,839 --> 01:04:04,480
shift direction
into something else.

735
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,760
» Unless the legislature changes Yeah.
>> direction.

736
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,760
» Yeah.
>> Well, they could always make it more

737
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:11,839
strict, too.
>> They could, but then they give us time.

738
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:18,799
» Yeah.
>> That's probably my thought, too, Justin.

739
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:23,440
If they change direction significantly,
my guess is they'll give cities more

740
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:27,359
time to deal with it
and

741
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:30,240
something's going to happen. We just
don't know what direction it's going to

742
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:34,319
go. Some somebody's going to do
something.

743
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:39,200
This is a this is on the tip of their
tongue, they're saying.

744
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:44,160
» So So maybe just in in looking at time,
right? It's 8 o'clock now. Does anybody

745
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:51,520
have any concerns with the first the the
four that were presented uh AEF and O to

746
01:04:48,559 --> 01:04:53,440
to present uh or to recommend to city
council and then

747
01:04:53,039 --> 01:04:59,520
» I
>> to Darren's point will pick three more.

748
01:04:57,039 --> 01:05:02,079
Are we good with those first four?
>> Yeah.

749
01:05:00,319 --> 01:05:05,640
» I share your concerns with O.
>> Yeah.

750
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,640
» But

751
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,839
» yeah. Yeah.
>> I think like like was mentioned, right?

752
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,880
They're looking for seven. and they're
going to pair it down.

753
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,400
» Yeah.
>> And ultimately that's a legislative um

754
01:05:13,839 --> 01:05:19,920
decision that's not held in our we don't
control the

755
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:23,520
» the purse. So
>> the other one that was mentioned was

756
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:27,280
» V. Yeah.
>> So I was going to maybe if we can narrow

757
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:31,920
down are we good with those four and
then we can talk about three more

758
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,799
» and I what about I that might be an easy
one.

759
01:05:32,559 --> 01:05:37,280
» Yeah. Foren those four first.
>> Yeah absolutely.

760
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:46,000
» Is everyone okay? So now we need three
more. And yeah my notes were IV and then

761
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:50,720
I I picked Q. So I was um Shel's comment
about multi- about uh senior care

762
01:05:49,039 --> 01:05:57,920
centers potentially updating.
>> You'd like that twist that it that it be

763
01:05:53,760 --> 01:06:00,720
it be um directed at senior
some kind of senior living.

764
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:07,599
» Yeah.
>> I do. Yeah. That's our interpretation of

765
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:13,200
that strategy. And then V,
which was also Shel's comment, was um

766
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:17,119
create or allow for and reduce
regulations related to multifamily

767
01:06:15,039 --> 01:06:22,319
residential dwellings
uh compatible in scale and form with

768
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:25,599
detached single family residential
dwellings and located in walkable

769
01:06:24,319 --> 01:06:30,960
communities within residential or mixed
use zones. to me that just my

770
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:35,520
interpretation is something that looks
like a single family residence but is

771
01:06:33,359 --> 01:06:36,880
multifamily in a single family
neighborhood.

772
01:06:36,559 --> 01:06:40,480
» Yeah,
>> there's an example of that if you on

773
01:06:38,799 --> 01:06:43,920
Second North on the Quasil side where
they're redoing there. There's under

774
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:47,520
construction there is a duplex there
amongst single family and across the

775
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:51,200
street they've had some duplexes there
but that is pretty much a mixeduse area

776
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,799
right there.
>> Yeah.

777
01:06:52,559 --> 01:06:59,599
» Yeah. Right down here on Main Street in
Farmington before you what is it? Get to

778
01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:03,680
like Smith, there's a duplex on the
right hand side. Looks like a single

779
01:07:01,359 --> 01:07:07,680
family dwelling. Like I drove by it for
years before I realized it was a duplex.

780
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,920
» Where's that at?
>> By Smith.

781
01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:13,920
» On Main Street.
>> Main Street.

782
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:16,480
» Yeah.
>> It looks like a big home. There's a

783
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:19,119
single drive. It's like a double
driveway in the center. And there's

784
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,680
» Oh, that's a duplex.
>> Yeah. [laughter]

785
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,119
» Yeah.
>> Right. Hey, it [clears throat] looks

786
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:27,680
like a nice place.
>> It looks like a single family dwelling.

787
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:28,960
Yeah.
>> Yeah.

788
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:35,520
» Yeah.
>> Okay. So, I and V and then the other one

789
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:40,319
I marked was Q. Um
>> Q.

790
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:45,039
» So, this was and this is something that
we had discussed before is just impact

791
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:49,280
fees. U basically eliminate impact fees
with accessory dwelling units. Uh the

792
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:53,599
comment on here was that uh we're not
currently collecting any revenue from

793
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:58,000
ADUs. So maybe it's a moratorum of a
year, 18 months, something like that.

794
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:04,627
Basically just inviting those that are
that currently have um internal ADUs

795
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:09,039
that have not permitted them with
[clears throat] the city to come out of

796
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:14,079
the woodwork, get their permits done.
>> It checks the box fairly low cost to the

797
01:08:12,559 --> 01:08:16,560
city
>> and gets us in good standing.

798
01:08:15,359 --> 01:08:20,080
» Yeah.
I like that idea of having a moratorum

799
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:23,759
on the fees
>> to get people to want to get them

800
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:28,480
registered with the city.
>> Yeah, because I think we have less than

801
01:08:25,679 --> 01:08:33,679
10 currently registered
>> and I'm

802
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:43,839
» okay. So that's seven. You got A, E, F,
and and O and then I V and Q.

803
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:47,600
» Yeah, that was recommendation was seven.
>> There's seven. Are we good?

804
01:08:45,839 --> 01:08:52,239
» We need we need a motion.
>> Can I ask a quick question? Can you will

805
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:56,319
you can you can you define exactly so
and I say this having worked on an area

806
01:08:54,080 --> 01:09:00,080
station plan but what what is the de
definition of a station area plan? What

807
01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:02,000
has to be inclusive in that?
>> What strategy is that

808
01:09:01,199 --> 01:09:08,880
» you?
>> Well, first of all, it has to be a major

809
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:13,440
transit stop and that's been defined as
one of the stops on front runner. So,

810
01:09:11,279 --> 01:09:16,319
it's not possible here. We don't have a
frontr runner stop.

811
01:09:14,480 --> 01:09:21,920
» We don't, but we have a major travel
corridor and um develop and adopt a

812
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:26,080
station area plan.
>> It doesn't say anything about building

813
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:28,480
it, but could that be included in our
master plan

814
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:32,880
» if we think we're going to get
FrontRunner up here at some point? But

815
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:38,239
I'm pretty sure they have defined the
stationary plans have to be centered

816
01:09:35,679 --> 01:09:43,839
around a Front Runner stop. So that's
everything along front runner.

817
01:09:41,839 --> 01:09:46,159
But but it just says develop. Oh, well I
guess what one is that?

818
01:09:45,759 --> 01:09:48,319
» You.
>> That's you. Let me

819
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:52,159
» develop and adopt.
>> Let me get over there.

820
01:09:49,199 --> 01:09:57,840
» Develop and adopt doesn't mean build.
Develop and adopt means in my mind

821
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:01,199
connection, right? Create a plan,
design.

822
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:06,159
» It says in accordance with section 1021
203. I could go back and read that and

823
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:09,760
see if that's something that's even
remotely possible. But

824
01:10:07,679 --> 01:10:15,679
» I read that a long time ago. I know what
it says. I know that I have been told

825
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:19,840
before that station area plans are
directly related to frontr runner

826
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:24,400
stations.
>> Okay.

827
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:30,000
» Like Farmington did a stationary plan,
>> right?

828
01:10:26,719 --> 01:10:34,640
» Down here at the at you know by the
Front Runner stop

829
01:10:31,679 --> 01:10:38,560
» they completed a stationary plan. and
the idea that, you know, there there is

830
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:43,600
one that talks about collaborating with
another, you know, entity that has, you

831
01:10:41,679 --> 01:10:49,840
know, some of the same interests that we
have. And so I I know it doesn't have

832
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:53,679
this language in there, but to propose,
hey, we're going to connect with, you

833
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:56,719
know, Farmington
>> maybe,

834
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:58,159
» right? I don't know, maybe as a backup.
I don't know.

835
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,760
» Um,
>> it seems as though it would be kind of a

836
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:04,719
low.
>> These secondary strategies are going to

837
01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:07,520
take some work. Yeah. to figure out how
to make them work.

838
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,920
» I guess if we if there's
>> there's there's lower fruit to be

839
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:13,840
picked.
>> If there's going to be work done on the

840
01:11:11,199 --> 01:11:15,120
master plan, then this might be
something.

841
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:19,040
» I mean, we could certain we can look
into think about.

842
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:25,040
» Yeah.
>> Yeah. Just I this is just an a this is

843
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:29,280
AI's version of of what that section
states basically is that we have to it's

844
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:32,800
a plan that addresses specific goals
including increased housing, transit

845
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:36,080
writership, and economic development.
specifically within a half mile radius

846
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:39,440
of the station.
>> So I think it would it'd be a lot it'd

847
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:42,640
be effort like it's a
>> it'd be an effort to put that together.

848
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:48,080
Not saying that
>> but maybe more of the the math the the

849
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:49,520
general plan outlook.
>> Yeah.

850
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:57,400
» Okay.
>> Any any other discussion on um med uh

851
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,400
MIH strategies?

852
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:08,520
» Not
um we'd be looking for a motion. correct

853
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:08,520
to to um recommend the strategies.

854
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,960
» Do we have a a motion?

855
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:22,560
» A motion to recommend the strategies to
the city council.

856
01:12:19,679 --> 01:12:26,600
» Yeah. Is that sufficient? Do we need to
call them out? We're good.

857
01:12:26,719 --> 01:12:33,520
» Probably had to call them out.
>> Yeah. Just to be

858
01:12:31,679 --> 01:12:38,080
» O.
>> Yep.

859
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:40,400
» B is in Virginia. [laughter]
>> Yes.

860
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:43,040
» Okay. Do I have a second?
>> Second it.

861
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,239
» Uh, all in favor, please say yes.
>> Yes.

862
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,920
» Yes.
>> Yes.

863
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:50,400
» Any
>> nos? No.

864
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:55,360
» Okay. Thank you everybody. Uh, we'll
move on to the next section. Uh, section

865
01:12:53,760 --> 01:13:00,520
6.3,
R3 zone. R3 zone discussion.

866
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,960
» Uh Scott,

867
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:22,400
so um in council meeting it was brought
up um that back in March we were talking

868
01:13:19,199 --> 01:13:31,040
about an R13 zone. Um, and I'm not sure
if that was a rewrite for the R3 zone or

869
01:13:27,199 --> 01:13:35,199
just creating an R13 zone. Um, I went
through the minutes, read a little bit

870
01:13:32,239 --> 01:13:43,600
about what was happening. Um, in the
minutes we talked about, uh, taking in

871
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:48,719
the in that zone, um, it was 8,000 foot
lot for individual homes. Um, the

872
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:58,159
discussion was moving that to a 4,000
foot lot. Uh it also talked about um

873
01:13:54,159 --> 01:14:05,679
number of units um possible on that same
area which would put it closer to seven

874
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:09,520
to with the maybe going to nine units.
Um

875
01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:14,719
there there's a couple concerns that
were coming up um that we did you did

876
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:19,520
talk a little bit about uh current um
multif family units having up to 25

877
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:23,679
units per acre. Um there was uh
discussion about parking. Um there was a

878
01:14:21,679 --> 01:14:30,400
little bit of discussion discussion
sorry uh making it less units

879
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:35,360
uh maybe comparable to the the ivory
over at the bottom of Nicholls Road

880
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:41,760
which is currently um I looked it up
today according to their map and all the

881
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:48,320
open space that they tied to it was um
about 15 units per acre. I'm just it was

882
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:56,000
just three or something like that. units
per acre. Uh there also was talk um and

883
01:14:52,880 --> 01:15:00,640
concern um about if you took an acre and
put 25 apartments on it, what kind of

884
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:05,760
open space was available and should
there be a percentage more than what we

885
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:09,960
have in the current ordinance?
And um

886
01:15:11,679 --> 01:15:20,800
the discussion was also talked about um
where uh higher denses density would be

887
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:25,360
appropriate in the city. Uh there was a
discussion of that and there was a

888
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:31,679
couple areas pointed out for that. Um
and then also the current infrastructure

889
01:15:28,239 --> 01:15:37,679
um in those areas could it handle um the
increased housing.

890
01:15:34,719 --> 01:15:46,239
I think the last um there was one other
one um that um actually I think it was

891
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:51,120
Shel that density density
isn't just about the unit count it's

892
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:55,760
about form scale and livability
high-rise apartments with no green space

893
01:15:53,520 --> 01:16:01,360
very unpopular um was one of her
comments um a better layout with open

894
01:15:58,239 --> 01:16:09,040
space is a lot more acceptable was kind
of a comment and We talked and um like I

895
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:17,199
said, I don't know if this is a rewrite
to the R3 zone or if it was to create an

896
01:16:13,199 --> 01:16:23,360
R1 zone to um R13 zone.
>> I think a rewrite of the R3.

897
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:32,520
» So, but that was the discussion. Um
council uh asked me to bring that back

898
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:32,520
and continue with that council. Um

899
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:43,040
and um the last of it is that um we
could look at it. I know we just created

900
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:48,159
the R16 zone um which has a 6,000 foot
lot for each individual. We're up to

901
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:53,920
eight units. Uh so I think there was
some discussion also with that making

902
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:58,080
sure we're we're providing an area where
we can have higher density but we're

903
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:03,280
also um
being mindful of what's around is the is

904
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:11,840
the how I took the minutes as I read
through them. So, um I did look up both

905
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:17,199
ordinances um like the R3 went through
the R3 uh and just kind of compared to

906
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:22,640
what was talked about in in size wise.
But, um other than that, that was the

907
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:30,719
discussion. And so I guess that's a
discussion that we probably should

908
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:38,560
continue um to look at u an R13 zone and
setbacks it um different different items

909
01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:43,920
through that. I I think u that could hit
a different couple different things. So,

910
01:17:41,199 --> 01:17:51,360
I don't know if you create a R3 zone and
do it for multifamily dwelling units and

911
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:56,480
then do an R13 for your town homes and
your uh little bit different, you know,

912
01:17:54,880 --> 01:18:02,719
single family dwelling homes on a
smaller lot um or how you want to do

913
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:07,280
that. But, uh that's direction
also that the planning commission needs

914
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:11,679
to talk about and so we can continue to
work on that process.

915
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:15,840
So here, let me just give you my two
cents about this.

916
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:21,120
» I'm the one that suggested that we go
from go like a 7 to nine unit per acre

917
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:26,080
density
>> based on what we know today and new

918
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:32,159
information we've got. That'll that that
that won't create any affordable

919
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:37,520
anything. Um it's not realistic. Let's
not create another zone that can't be

920
01:18:34,239 --> 01:18:43,040
used by anybody. The R16 zone has been
used by no one. It's been tried a couple

921
01:18:40,159 --> 01:18:47,440
of times. Couldn't make it pencil.
Doesn't mean it couldn't be used. It

922
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:53,120
hasn't been used.
I honestly believe that if you're going

923
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:58,960
to redo this zone, you think very
methodically about this before you take

924
01:18:55,120 --> 01:19:04,880
any action. And that is if this city is
seriously interested in doing higher

925
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:14,400
density, you've got to match the what
the market is able to build. So

926
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:19,120
7 8 9 10 units of the acre, it's not
going to cut it. You're not going to

927
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:22,400
create any affordable anything. So
you're going to have to look at

928
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:28,640
something more than that. I don't know
if the city can

929
01:19:24,719 --> 01:19:33,120
has the pallet can swallow it. Um, that
has to be vetted before you even talk

930
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:39,920
about what you're going to do with a
zone because basically just give give me

931
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:44,400
a dense a density per acre and we'll
create the rest of it around it. That's

932
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:48,960
that's what we need to know. We'll
create all the we'll put all the details

933
01:19:46,239 --> 01:19:54,480
to it and make it look pretty and and
all that, but we need to know what

934
01:19:52,640 --> 01:20:01,840
density do you want this thing to look
at. Right now, that R3 is allowed up to

935
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:07,920
25 units per acre. You got two projects
on the table. They both proposed at 25

936
01:20:05,199 --> 01:20:15,120
units per acre.
Now, that didn't seem to be palatable to

937
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:18,640
at least a bunch of neighbors. So, I
don't know. I don't I don't know where

938
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:26,719
you want to go with that, but don't just
charge into it unless you've got some

939
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:33,520
market analysis to back it up.
Can Can Yeah. Is there any um

940
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:36,480
clarification from the city council as
far as why they wanted us to look at it

941
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:41,199
again?
>> I don't know. I wasn't there.

942
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:44,560
» It was just brought up that
>> I'm sorry. It was brought up that the

943
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:51,120
planning commission had looked at it um
last year um and it it had not moved

944
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:58,199
forward
that so um I said I would bring it back

945
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:58,199
up to the planning commission.

946
01:21:00,719 --> 01:21:08,320
» I guess I don't understand I don't
understand the value or to to Jeff's

947
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:12,719
point. I mean
the the only opportunity that I I think

948
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:17,199
I would see potentially and it's not
going to make I I assume right I'm not a

949
01:21:15,199 --> 01:21:20,640
developer I don't work in developing I
assume it's not going to everything

950
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:25,120
we've heard though from developers is
that it it doesn't make sense right they

951
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:29,840
need they need more than um seven to
nine units per acre to make it work the

952
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:34,800
only opportunity that I would see that
this potentially would be used is if

953
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:39,440
it's not a developer right it's grandma
and grandpa's property

954
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:44,719
they pass away and you have cousins,
siblings, whatever that decide we want

955
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:50,800
to build four units and live on it
together, right? Um when it's not

956
01:21:47,840 --> 01:22:00,080
financially motivated.
Um but we also already have the R16 that

957
01:21:53,679 --> 01:22:04,719
was brought up earlier as well. Um so I
maybe I'm wrong here. I just I don't

958
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:09,840
know what the value of the R13 would be.
it potentially. It's right. We already

959
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:17,280
have a minimum of 6,000 square. It's
it's smaller lots. You could do a 4,000.

960
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:23,360
You could minimum of a 4,000 foot lot.
You said the the units um the ivory

961
01:22:20,719 --> 01:22:27,840
development on Nicholls are those what
what's the average lot size there?

962
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:32,800
» When you said 15 per acre, did you
include the entire development or just

963
01:22:30,239 --> 01:22:37,199
the apartment piece? Did you
>> I included all the open space.

964
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:39,199
» Did you include all of the units? Even
the single family units?

965
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:44,159
» No. None of those.
>> So just the 80.

966
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:49,600
» Just the 80 apartments in what I figured
the boundary was around it. Yeah. And

967
01:22:47,199 --> 01:22:53,280
it's just just under four acres.
>> Okay. But part of that development down

968
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:57,840
there incorporated all the single family
for the open space because you can buy

969
01:22:55,199 --> 01:23:02,719
in and pay your HOA fees and have access
to the pools. So that open space was not

970
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:07,840
just created for those those apartments
that were supposed to convert to condos

971
01:23:04,639 --> 01:23:12,480
at some point. Um it includes all the
the smaller lot single families to be

972
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:17,679
able to use those amenities. So that's
why you're down to approximately 15

973
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:22,400
units per acre on that. On the R3 zone
that we were talking about, the piece on

974
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:27,440
Lloyd Road that was proposed there uh
were the town homes and I think if I

975
01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:29,520
remember right, there were 19. He said
20, but um

976
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:32,239
» he proposed 20.
>> He proposed 20. I counted 19 on his

977
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,440
plat.
>> That's right.

978
01:23:32,719 --> 01:23:41,360
» Yeah. But um
uh that's the kind of density that

979
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:45,120
works. On the other piece that Mr. Ivy
has there on Main Street. Uh his was

980
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:50,239
doing apartments and I think the
opposition to the R3 zone on there was

981
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:54,560
the height restriction up to 45 ft if I
remember that correctly that for some

982
01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:58,800
reason down to three stories was a
little bit more palatable or whatever

983
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:02,560
was going to be and less units in there.
Now since then, you know, I know that

984
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:06,560
developers also talked and said he's
open to whatever we come up with. He's

985
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:10,400
he's not married to that that
hypothetical development. And I think a

986
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:14,560
lot of people misunderstood on both of
those. This is what this is final

987
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:17,360
decision made. This is what I'm
proposing. This is what I'm trying to

988
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:18,880
get. Okay. Which wasn't the case on
either development.

989
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:23,360
» Y.
>> So I think the onus is on us to come up

990
01:24:21,199 --> 01:24:30,239
with a density. Just like you said, what
are we willing to do here? Doesn't mean

991
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:34,239
we're going to approve 25 units.
It just means it has the capacity to do

992
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:38,560
that.
>> 6,000 square foot lots are not going to

993
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,840
get you the density.
No,

994
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:44,800
» just not going to.
>> No.

995
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:49,920
» Um, it's also worth mentioning there is
no vacant property in the city zoned R3

996
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:54,800
right now that isn't already
fully developed. So,

997
01:24:52,800 --> 01:25:00,639
you've got the two projects that have
been proposed as R3. Um, what what I'm

998
01:24:58,239 --> 01:25:10,639
saying is you got time to figure this
out. I mean, um, you know, let's figure

999
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:14,239
out what's going to work the best. Um,
um,

1000
01:25:12,239 --> 01:25:17,920
this this doesn't need to be this
doesn't need to be you don't need to

1001
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:21,840
rush into this. That's what I'm saying.
>> So, we don't have to make a decision.

1002
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:25,920
You're at this point. It's just a
discussion. We're not we're not moving

1003
01:25:24,239 --> 01:25:28,880
on it tonight.
>> Okay.

1004
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:34,239
Well, and that's another point I would
like to make to the general public is

1005
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:37,679
the the attitude and the position that
the planning commission has taken as

1006
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:40,800
long as I've been on it is very
methodical and we've taken our time and

1007
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:45,920
these have been in on the works and
being talked about since last March when

1008
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:51,360
I was put in. So, it's it's not an
overnight thing. Um, we do try to put a

1009
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:54,560
lot of thought and get input on here.
We're not going to make everybody happy

1010
01:25:52,719 --> 01:25:59,840
all the time. It's that's an impossible
task. So, our decisions are going to be

1011
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:05,600
based on the best information we can get
and what makes sense in the in the

1012
01:26:02,639 --> 01:26:11,760
overall plan. As Jeff says, a general
plan is simply a guideline. It's not

1013
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:15,760
law. It's not cast in stone. It can be
revised. And it sounds like our current

1014
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:22,480
general plan is in the works of being
revised again. And you were saying the

1015
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:27,199
legisl the legislature on this MIH plan
that may mix it all up again. So, we're

1016
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:31,360
trying to make decisions on things that
are probably going to change on us

1017
01:26:30,239 --> 01:26:36,159
» con constantly.
>> Constantly.

1018
01:26:34,159 --> 01:26:42,480
» Yeah.
>> Okay. Any questions? Any further

1019
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:49,440
discussion on
R3? Um I I guess at this point

1020
01:26:46,239 --> 01:26:54,320
we're we're good to have discussion. Do
um is there any request I guess of the

1021
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:58,239
city? Where would we like to go for from
here on this?

1022
01:26:55,120 --> 01:27:03,040
» What do you want to do, Darren?
>> Like I said, I was asked to bring it

1023
01:27:00,159 --> 01:27:08,000
back and uh for the planning commission
to look at or maybe it's just something

1024
01:27:04,719 --> 01:27:12,320
we start to um talk about for the next
couple council meetings as we we go

1025
01:27:10,159 --> 01:27:16,880
through the process. I think one
important thing that we need to realize

1026
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:22,800
is that we're going to have the um
external or the detached um dwelling

1027
01:27:20,239 --> 01:27:27,920
units. Um we we need to have that
ordinance and I I think there's more

1028
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:30,400
discussion over the next few weeks that
we need to have on that as far as

1029
01:27:29,679 --> 01:27:34,480
» do that first.
>> Yeah.

1030
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:37,840
» Yeah. As far as setbacks, uh how do you
where we where do we think we should be

1031
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:40,320
on setbacks for those?
>> Agreed.

1032
01:27:38,239 --> 01:27:45,120
» We need to focus on are we going to
allow it in every zone?

1033
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:49,520
» Are we or is it just a certain size lot?
There are some things that we need to

1034
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:54,639
talk about because we can't just throw
an ordinance together and without

1035
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:58,800
at least some direction from the
planning commission of you know we could

1036
01:27:56,719 --> 01:28:03,120
put every zone we could put everything
we start putting that out and then we

1037
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:06,639
end up changing the whole thing. Um, so
tonight the reason I put the that on

1038
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:12,480
there is so we could start that
discussion probably looking at do we

1039
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:19,040
want it available in every zone? Um, or
is there just a certain size lot that we

1040
01:28:14,719 --> 01:28:24,639
want to allow it to? Um, do we want to
um allow it to have its own sewer

1041
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:29,360
connection and its own water connection
or are we going to say it's required to

1042
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:34,639
have that or is it going to be required
to hook into the current homes? um sewer

1043
01:28:32,719 --> 01:28:40,400
system. Those are things that I think we
need to start talking about. Um yes,

1044
01:28:37,679 --> 01:28:46,719
this is due the 1st of October, but it's
also a work in progress. Um and it's not

1045
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:51,760
going to be done the 1st of September. I
promise you, it's going to be closer to

1046
01:28:49,440 --> 01:28:54,960
the end of November by the time we we
have an ordinance. It's gone through and

1047
01:28:53,920 --> 01:29:00,000
it's gone through the planning
commission. After that, it's still got

1048
01:28:57,199 --> 01:29:04,560
to go to the city council and go through
their process. Um, and so this is

1049
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:08,800
something that we'll have done probably
closer to the end of the year

1050
01:29:06,239 --> 01:29:16,560
» and it will fit within the general plan
that we're doing and that that's part of

1051
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:22,480
my goal is we do all these steps to get
to that point and it's so but we need to

1052
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:27,199
start somewhere and somewhere is do we
put it in every zone? That's up to the

1053
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:32,239
planning commission to recommend. We
start there. Do we have different

1054
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:36,719
setbacks? Do we do it same as a shed or
do we say it's needs to be a little bit

1055
01:29:35,199 --> 01:29:42,000
harder than three feet from the property
line? Those are things that's up to the

1056
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:46,400
planning commission to talk about
tonight and in our next meeting. But

1057
01:29:44,639 --> 01:29:50,159
that helps us start putting a draft
together that we can start presenting a

1058
01:29:48,639 --> 01:29:55,760
draft and saying, "Okay, here's what we
talked about. Here's what we're moving.

1059
01:29:53,360 --> 01:30:00,320
What do we need to change?" Um, and so
that's why that's on discussion for

1060
01:29:57,199 --> 01:30:05,920
tonight. So, the October deadline is
movable. It sounds like

1061
01:30:02,639 --> 01:30:10,000
» we're supposed to have it adopted by
October.

1062
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:13,760
» Um, but there's a lot of cities that are
still working on this same process

1063
01:30:11,679 --> 01:30:17,840
trying to go through and meet the
requirements for both the

1064
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:22,159
infrastructure, all the different items.
Um, so we're not the only one in this

1065
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:27,840
ballpark. Um, but it's something that we
need to show we're working on. um and

1066
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:31,360
and going through the process.
>> So, I know that there's other cities,

1067
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:38,719
Salt Lake City, I believe they already
have EADU ordinances in place to allow

1068
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:42,719
how could we get consensus and get some
uh data on other cities that have have

1069
01:30:41,199 --> 01:30:46,639
put this in place and what they have
done with these very things, setback,

1070
01:30:44,239 --> 01:30:51,040
sewer, parking spaces, that whole thing.
>> We need that we need that research.

1071
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:55,280
» So, I think we need that. H have we just
to clarify I we kind of went from R3 to

1072
01:30:53,440 --> 01:30:59,840
EADU I think
>> are we are we good to kind of table R3

1073
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:04,880
» let me let me just make a recommendation
on the R3. Yeah, I

1074
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:08,480
» if you would consider this between this
planning commission and the city

1075
01:31:06,480 --> 01:31:15,600
council,
give the staff a range of densities that

1076
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:20,000
is palatable to the city and let us go
back and do some economic analysis on it

1077
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:26,480
and come back to you with some
recommendations on why that may or may

1078
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:35,440
not, you know, what what what is that
what is 15 units to the acre going to

1079
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:41,679
result in home cost. What's 25 units of
the acre going to,

1080
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:49,120
you know, um give us some parameters and
let us put together some information

1081
01:31:43,440 --> 01:31:53,360
that you can analyze. Um that's what I
think you do there. But as Darren

1082
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:59,199
mentioned, we have got to get on this 8U
thing now. We the the the R3 can come

1083
01:31:56,719 --> 01:32:03,520
later. it comes after the we need to get
this done now that that the clock's

1084
01:32:01,360 --> 01:32:07,920
ticking on that. So that that's got to
come first.

1085
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:13,440
» So right now we have R3 which is 25
units per acre. We have R16 which is

1086
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:17,280
eight units per acre.
>> Well, it's really only six

1087
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:25,520
» six R1 excuse me
>> R16 is only six units per acre

1088
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:31,679
» and that's we go from six to 25. Well, I
want to I want to clarify that there

1089
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:36,000
there was two different paths. One would
go up to 10 units per acre, one up to 25

1090
01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:38,880
units per acre.
>> That's the area A or the area B, which

1091
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:42,880
we don't have.
>> And those areas don't even exist

1092
01:32:40,159 --> 01:32:45,840
anymore, right? Those are long gone.
>> Yeah.

1093
01:32:43,679 --> 01:32:49,679
» So, there is no such thing as areas.
>> Yeah.

1094
01:32:47,679 --> 01:32:55,280
That's what we've talked about doing as
part of strategy F is redefining areas

1095
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:58,440
that could be considered for these kinds
of things.

1096
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:06,239
» Okay. So,
>> if you wanted to look at 25 and I don't

1097
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:10,159
know, do we just stair step it 25?
>> I don't know. Pick a number two two

1098
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:13,920
numbers between 25 and six.
>> Well, do we just pick a number or do we

1099
01:33:12,239 --> 01:33:18,159
is it we figure out what the city
council wants us to look at? What do

1100
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:21,360
they what's going to be palatable? What
can they sell?

1101
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:24,639
» I I think that's what
>> Well, I think you I think you guys can

1102
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:30,320
come up with a number and say, "This is
our our number. What do you guys want us

1103
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:34,800
to do or what do you want to do?" Um,
you've got developers telling you it's

1104
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:38,159
the absolute minimum.
>> They can't do it for less than 25 units

1105
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:41,520
per acre.
>> Well, isn't that what the city council

1106
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:44,880
wants as a planning and zoning
commission? They want us to give a

1107
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:47,520
number to suggest for them to consider.
So, it's our job to come up with a

1108
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:52,159
number. So,
>> probably

1109
01:33:49,440 --> 01:33:58,719
» and let them mulle it over and see what
their thoughts are. So, I would say the

1110
01:33:55,040 --> 01:34:02,880
25 is going to be what numbers pencil
out having been in that business know it

1111
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:06,080
there. We're not going to no matter what
we do, if it doesn't pencil out for

1112
01:34:04,719 --> 01:34:09,920
somebody, it doesn't do any good.
>> Yeah. They they just won't use it. It

1113
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:14,800
just won't happen.
>> Why don't Why don't you just let us kind

1114
01:34:11,679 --> 01:34:20,400
of work on a range? let's say maybe
between 15 and 25 and just see what I I

1115
01:34:18,719 --> 01:34:27,120
I think we could put something together
that gives some some good analysis on

1116
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:32,320
what that means given you know land
values in this city and stuff and and

1117
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:37,199
then you you can adjust it. You can say
we're never going down that road. It

1118
01:34:34,480 --> 01:34:41,679
needs to be 10. Or you might come back
and say if we're going to do anything

1119
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:45,080
it's got to be 30.
I don't know.

1120
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:55,440
» Yeah. So, so it sounds like there's some
desire on the city council to have

1121
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:59,679
something in between R3 and R16 and it's
just trying to figure out what that is.

1122
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:07,520
» Is that fair?
>> I I think so. I I suspect

1123
01:35:04,159 --> 01:35:12,800
that based on our comments earlier this
year when we were talking about knocking

1124
01:35:09,199 --> 01:35:17,760
the R3 down to 7 to nine units per acre
that they're like, "Well, yeah, let's do

1125
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:22,080
that." Um,
I suspect that that's the the I don't I

1126
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:26,000
mean, nobody's told me, but I suspect
that's the idea behind it is let's get

1127
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:32,400
less density. Let's getting it less
density into this ordinance. um that

1128
01:35:29,440 --> 01:35:36,960
will just probably likely end in an
ordinance that does nothing.

1129
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:44,080
» I think Jeff along with that too though,
but if you look at the the ordinance R3,

1130
01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:49,120
it's a 6,000 square foot lot is for an
individual

1131
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:52,960
dwelling. Um a multifamily dwelling can
take more space

1132
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:57,360
and so so it's two different things
you're looking at there. We're not

1133
01:35:54,320 --> 01:36:02,239
looking at an individual dwelling.
um for maybe that number. We're looking

1134
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:08,639
at a multif family dwelling. What's the
amount for that multifamily dwelling? So

1135
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:12,639
like you know is it 20 apartments?
That's that's the max we want to look

1136
01:36:10,159 --> 01:36:15,199
at. Or is it 20 condos? Is that the max
we want to look at? That's your multif

1137
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:20,400
family dwelling because that's your
building and their separation. Um

1138
01:36:17,679 --> 01:36:25,280
individual lot size as far as the you
know it had 8,000. We talked about going

1139
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:29,600
down to four is for an individual
dwelling on that. on a single lot

1140
01:36:27,440 --> 01:36:33,920
» on that on that lot. Yes.
>> Yeah.

1141
01:36:30,159 --> 01:36:35,520
» So that's I mean I think that's two ways
to look at it.

1142
01:36:34,639 --> 01:36:39,920
» Yes.
>> Is it a single family dwelling and we

1143
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:47,360
could go up to nine um so we have nine
different units on there or is it a

1144
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:52,400
multifamily dwelling which is your condo
or whatever. Watch your units on that. I

1145
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:57,920
that's how we need to look at that. I
think on that saying units per lot and

1146
01:36:54,960 --> 01:37:03,600
not units per acre.
>> It still comes out units per acre, but a

1147
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:08,639
multifamily building is different than
an individual building.

1148
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:18,560
» Sure. And and so you can you could zone
a R3 right now and in a have what four

1149
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:25,040
possibly five
homes on 8,000 square foot lots in that

1150
01:37:21,679 --> 01:37:29,280
because it's 43,000 square ft. So you're
you're right in that ballpark by by the

1151
01:37:27,360 --> 01:37:32,800
time you do driveways and all that kind
of stuff. um

1152
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:38,880
» might all it might
>> but a multifamily unit you could have 25

1153
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:42,400
because you have apartment building that
has 25 units or town homes

1154
01:37:40,480 --> 01:37:47,600
» or town home.
>> You just tell us what you can stomach on

1155
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:50,560
a density per acre and we'll create an
ordinance that makes that does that.

1156
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:53,679
» But at the same time, why are we going
to make an ordinance for that's a waste

1157
01:37:52,719 --> 01:37:56,880
of all of our time,
>> right? That's my point.

1158
01:37:54,960 --> 01:38:00,400
» Yeah. So the eight eight, you know, six
to nine units per acre just doesn't meet

1159
01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:03,440
any goal.
>> Yeah.

1160
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:05,119
» It doesn't appear that financially that
that's

1161
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:07,600
» it doesn't make any sense.
>> That that that makes any sense.

1162
01:38:06,239 --> 01:38:10,719
» It's got to be 25.
>> It's got to be 25. I I know it's

1163
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:14,239
» Yeah,
>> that's the hard part.

1164
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:22,560
» This could all become irrelevant
>> where when the legislature for the last

1165
01:38:17,199 --> 01:38:28,880
two years has threatened to create 4,000
square foot lots as approved lots

1166
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:34,719
anywhere in the state of Utah
and

1167
01:38:31,199 --> 01:38:40,719
that I'm told it will be back on their
agenda again this year. It was defeated

1168
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:47,520
last year by a much narrower margin than
people were comfortable with. Um,

1169
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:52,480
at some point in the future, you're
probably going to have the state of Utah

1170
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:54,639
telling you what you can and can't do.
>> That's probably coming in the next five

1171
01:38:54,239 --> 01:38:59,840
years.
>> How big was that piece on Lloyd Road?

1172
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:01,440
Was that 8/10 of an acre? What was that,
Darren?

1173
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:04,960
» It was 810 of an acre.
>> Yeah, that's what I'm remembering. And

1174
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:10,800
they were going to do 19ish
>> Yeah. units on that.

1175
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:14,159
» That works out to just about 24 25 units
per acre.

1176
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:17,840
» And that is typical what a town home
development is going to look like there,

1177
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:21,440
you know, minus some open space. He had
some open space on there, but you're you

1178
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:27,600
have two roads that he was fronting on.
So,

1179
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:34,639
and he told me in a discussion I had
with him on the phone the other day that

1180
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:36,400
if it's less than that, he's walking.
Oh, yeah.

1181
01:39:35,679 --> 01:39:39,280
» But it sounds
>> I can't I I can't pencil.

1182
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:45,119
» But it sounds like we need to have the
city council look at two options. One of

1183
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:47,679
them is it 15 to 20 and 120 to 25 and
see

1184
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:50,480
» and see where they go with it.
>> Correct.

1185
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:55,840
» Yeah. And and certainly it's only going
to pencil out at 25 and then it's up to

1186
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:57,600
is that palatable.
>> I mean

1187
01:39:56,320 --> 01:40:02,080
» we already have that, right?
>> I mean

1188
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:05,840
» but that's thing is right. This stuff's
being built all around us. Yeah,

1189
01:40:04,159 --> 01:40:10,639
» every city in this county is building
high

1190
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:14,239
we can all get on a bus and travel
around and and and [snorts] look at

1191
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:18,719
these things. I mean, we don't have to
go far.

1192
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:22,320
» It's it's being done all around us. So,
>> what do you do? You want that? Do you

1193
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:26,639
not want that?
>> It's where everything is going. So, we

1194
01:40:25,199 --> 01:40:28,239
just have to decide whether we want it
here

1195
01:40:27,440 --> 01:40:32,080
» and where
>> and where

1196
01:40:28,800 --> 01:40:34,159
» and where do you want it?
I mean that that's what the general

1197
01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:37,920
plans for.
>> Yeah.

1198
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:44,480
Okay.
um

1199
01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:50,800
on the DEA on the external ADU. Um
let's commit to come back to our next

1200
01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:58,480
planning commission meeting with um
let let's say just a rough draft with

1201
01:40:53,840 --> 01:41:06,320
some ideas about the key points of what
needs to be in a DAU ordinance and then

1202
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:10,000
start massaging it from there. Can we
ask?

1203
01:41:06,719 --> 01:41:14,719
» And I will look at what other cities
around us and what other people that

1204
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:17,520
have already done it and try and glean
the best and brightest.

1205
01:41:16,239 --> 01:41:19,679
» That's just what I was going to ask if
we can have that information.

1206
01:41:19,040 --> 01:41:22,560
» Agreed.
>> I we when we talked about this before,

1207
01:41:21,199 --> 01:41:27,840
it seemed almost like a moot point
because Darren was saying that the

1208
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:32,719
capacity for sewage and water and all of
that infrastructure that is required for

1209
01:41:30,639 --> 01:41:35,760
this ordinance to be successful wasn't
there.

1210
01:41:34,159 --> 01:41:42,239
Yeah, that's right. That's
>> that that is that is one of the concerns

1211
01:41:38,639 --> 01:41:48,080
of of having them. Um and that's where I
think it comes to where we're putting

1212
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:53,360
them. Um are we just tying into the
original sewer? Because if we're tying

1213
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:57,440
into the original sewer, it should be
planned for. But if we're going to

1214
01:41:54,560 --> 01:42:02,960
require them to have uh their own sewer
connection and their own water

1215
01:41:59,440 --> 01:42:09,040
connection, you're creating
more than what that subdivision or what

1216
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:12,639
that area was designed for. Um I mean,
we're we go through right now we're

1217
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:16,159
upsizing water lines and all that
different thing just to meet state

1218
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:19,920
requirements or they're getting old and
it's time to do that. So we're we we do

1219
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:26,080
that anyway as a city,
>> but it may put things on a faster track.

1220
01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:30,159
um if they're if they're undersized
through that area. That that's the

1221
01:42:28,159 --> 01:42:34,560
concern. So, I think that's part of it.
Some cities will say in this area um

1222
01:42:33,440 --> 01:42:40,320
yeah, they have to have their own
service and their own sewer connection.

1223
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:43,360
Um the other parts, nope, they they have
to tie into the house sewer and the

1224
01:42:42,480 --> 01:42:49,360
house water,
>> but it was about it was about capacity.

1225
01:42:46,639 --> 01:42:52,719
So, uh, great, they have their own water
line and their own sewer, but that

1226
01:42:51,199 --> 01:42:55,600
capacity is not there to carry it away
and bring it in. Right.

1227
01:42:53,760 --> 01:43:01,920
» Well, yeah. And that's why if you're
looking at it and you're going to tie

1228
01:42:57,360 --> 01:43:06,080
everybody into that current connection,
>> is it there or is it a not you're not

1229
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:11,520
adding another connection.
>> You're just adding more volume. What

1230
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:14,719
what Shelley is is is alluding to is
that several years ago, Central Davis

1231
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:18,080
Sewer said,
>> right,

1232
01:43:15,119 --> 01:43:24,239
» told Kisville and Fruit Heights,
>> you cannot exceed three units per acre

1233
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:29,119
on our sewer system because it can't
handle it. Okay, since that time, I

1234
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:34,080
can't tell you how many projects have
been built in Cisville that exceed that

1235
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:39,440
by 10 times.
And there are projects in this city that

1236
01:43:36,480 --> 01:43:44,880
even exceed that. And guess what?
>> Central Davis Sewer has to sign off on

1237
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:49,679
every single subdivision we approve. So
they can start denying these things.

1238
01:43:47,840 --> 01:43:53,840
» The fact that they're approving them
tells me that well maybe they're not so

1239
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:58,000
concerned about it as they made out
because they have the right on any

1240
01:43:56,159 --> 01:44:01,360
project [clears throat] to say we're not
signing off

1241
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:07,440
» and they've yet to do that on one single
project. Yeah. So that's what Darren and

1242
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:13,520
I have been told and we're like, "Okay,
is this a thing or isn't it a thing?"

1243
01:44:09,360 --> 01:44:18,880
What I'm told is that there is a a a a
major choke point with the sewer system

1244
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:24,639
going underneath I-15 and down to the
sewer plant. And it's going to cost

1245
01:44:21,119 --> 01:44:29,199
millions of dollars to fix that and
nobody have wants to spend the money on

1246
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:33,199
it. And two, there's going to be some
other things I think next planning and

1247
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:38,159
zoning will be good to discuss that that
to take in consideration for these

1248
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:44,000
units. For instance, um how the sewer
district, my brother was the boss there,

1249
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:47,760
um they're going to consider how many
uh total units, bedrooms, bathrooms are

1250
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:51,920
in those units and that's how they're
going to base a lot of their decision.

1251
01:44:49,199 --> 01:44:56,159
And also at these this EADU is being
built on one tax ID number versus

1252
01:44:53,760 --> 01:45:00,159
another. How do you separate that in
util utility billing service all those

1253
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:03,600
kinds of things? So there's many things
we need to address and that's why

1254
01:45:01,440 --> 01:45:06,560
information from these other cities was
going to help us do that.

1255
01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:11,440
» I'll note too that we we have seen a
decline in in population size. So even

1256
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:16,800
though right over the last six years
since the census was done, so we do have

1257
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:27,760
fewer number of people living in the
city than we did six years ago. So,

1258
01:45:21,199 --> 01:45:34,960
but okay. Anything else on EAD use?
Uh, any tabled items?

1259
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:39,760
Uh, any reports?
Okay. Now, looks like our next meeting

1260
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:44,239
is September 22nd.
Um, we get a motion to close the

1261
01:45:42,719 --> 01:45:48,960
meeting.
>> Uh, motion to close the meeting. I will

1262
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,960
second