[0:06] like to call this meeting to order of
the Geneva Historic Preservation
[0:10] Commission for Tuesday, August 18th,
2026.
[0:15] Can you call the role?
>> Zelmer
[0:18] » here.
>> Tobler
[0:20] » here.
>> Jensen
[0:23] McManis
>> here.
[0:25] » Phillips
>> here. Reie Solomon.
[0:31] » Okay, we do have a quorum. So, we'll
start with the five minute field guide.
[0:38] » Oh, I'm sorry. Approval of minutes.
>> Jeez, I'm out of practice.
[0:43] Uh, approval of the story uh the meeting
minutes for July 21st. Uh, can I get a
[0:49] motion to approve?
>> Motion to approve.
[0:52] » Second.
>> Okay. Call the RO. Zelmer
[0:56] » abstain.
>> Tobler
[0:59] » I
>> uh Mcmanis
[1:01] » I
>> Phillips
[1:03] » I
>> motion passes. Okay now we can go right
[1:07] to the fiveminute field guide.
>> Okay
[1:10] » take it away Emma.
>> Thank you. So today's fiveminute field
[1:14] guide we're going to zoom in. I've
actually done this I think four or five
[1:17] times this month so it's been top of
mind for me. And we're going to zoom in
[1:21] on looking at dating and researching
based on hardware inside of a home or a
[1:27] commercial building [clears throat] too,
but I've been doing it mostly at homes.
[1:31] So, first we can talk about hardware.
So, nails and screws and those types of
[1:35] fasteners.
Um, and there are lots of ways that
[1:39] fasteners like this can help us state.
For example, handdrawn nails are usually
[1:45] a sign that you're looking at pre-800
construction. You can see that on the
[1:48] far left of this nice little chart here.
Um, and wire nails really came in to
[1:54] being around 1900. So, when you're
looking at the nails physically holding
[1:58] your building together, sometimes you
can see by what type they were about
[2:02] when those nails were put into the
building. So, this can either mean
[2:05] that's when it was originally
constructed or if there were additions
[2:08] when those additions were slowly added
on. You'll see a lot of properties that
[2:12] have multiple different kinds of nails
or screws. That typically means
[2:15] additions and things changed over time.
Um, you can also look at patas and
[2:20] things with fasteners like this. So, the
metal material might either change color
[2:25] itself or it might change things like
the wood or stone around it. That can
[2:29] often be a sign that it's been there for
a while. If there's no patina or
[2:32] staining, that could be a sign that uh
that was a replica fastener and was put
[2:38] in later. It could also mean nothing,
but it's something to keep in mind and
[2:42] keep an eye on.
There was uh
[2:47] nails and screws were a lot harder to
make. This might surprise you when they
[2:51] were hand wrought or weren't as easily
machine-made. There is a fun little myth
[2:55] that people would burn their properties
down and go through the ashes for the
[2:59] nails and screws to reuse and do that on
purpose.
[3:03] It's not really probably true that they
were purposely building burnings down
[3:07] when they were moving just to get nails
and screws, but it is probably true that
[3:10] nails and screws get would get reused a
lot. So, that's sort of an interesting
[3:13] trend to also keep an eye on when you're
doing analysis like this, just to
[3:17] understand, you know, this might be from
a pre- 1800 building, but it might even
[3:21] be from earlier and it was reused
because they only had so many hand rot
[3:25] nails.
You can also look at sort of the
[3:29] production type and production formats
of different hardes. This example
[3:35] specifically are uh row iron latch bars
and locks from the older slide convent
[3:40] down in New Orleans. That dates to 1752.
So that's well before cast iron, which
[3:46] is the other type of iron, which we'll
actually be seeing tonight. Uh really
[3:51] got came popular in New Orleans. Cast
iron really became popular around 1850.
[3:57] So when you're looking at a property
like this, if we didn't know that it was
[4:00] built in 1752, which we do because this
is a pretty notable building, we could
[4:04] at least say, okay, this is rod iron,
not cast. It's probably from before
[4:09] 1850. It's also useful to know those
types of production methods when you're
[4:14] looking to replace things. In the case
of this building, you can see on the
[4:17] left, they keep a lot of their old
hardware up in the attic. That's like
[4:21] their hardware room where you can kind
of dig through and find replacements for
[4:24] anything you might need. That's not
really common. That's a very lucky thing
[4:29] for that building to have
>> the the convent.
[4:32] » Oh, okay.
>> So, um yeah, the convent stores like
[4:37] that's all of their matching to the
hardware that they have. Um so, they
[4:43] it's good to know that for when you are
looking to replace things so that you
[4:46] can look in the right places to replace
when you don't have a handy dandy attic
[4:50] that's 200 years old full of everything
you might ever need.
[4:55] And then this is really what I've been
doing. Like I said, I've done this a
[4:58] couple times this month, so it's been
top of mind. A lot of hardware,
[5:02] especially as you got further into the
late 1800s and then basically on has
[5:08] been mass- prodduced over time, and a
lot of that comes out of cataloges,
[5:12] which I'm sure you've all seen some
things of or heard of like a Sears
[5:16] catalog, a Sears catalog house. You
could also buy your hardware from a SE a
[5:20] catalog of all different brands. This is
a trick that I use pretty frequently to
[5:25] date hardware, both to date the houses
themselves and to look at if it's
[5:29] possible to replace hardware in kind or
just to know more about sort of the
[5:33] people that were living in a property.
This uh house specifically is Piner
[5:38] Mansion or the Martin Mitchell mansion
in Neighborville. You might have seen it
[5:42] before. It's a neighbor settlement and
it's sort of a Victorian eclectic
[5:46] property with some Italian 8 uh and
Queen Anne influences. And we also know
[5:51] the family was really into the exoticism
trend that was going on at the time of
[5:55] its construction, which was 1883. And
you can kind of see that in these hinges
[5:59] and uh doorork knobs. This is their
front door that they use. They're sort
[6:04] of pulling in some of those more uh
trendy at the time exoticism imagery
[6:10] into even just the very detailed
hardware of their property. So, if I
[6:15] didn't know what date this house was
produced, I could look at the style and
[6:19] generally judge it as mid 1800s, early
1900s, and then I could start zooming in
[6:23] on the details like this hardware. And
what I've been doing this month a lot is
[6:28] pulling it into this handy dandy thing
called reverse image Google searching.
[6:33] Uh, so this is me pulling it right into
that on Google. You can see down at the
[6:38] bottom there's an AI mode, all answers,
exact matches, visual matches. I tend to
[6:43] avoid the AI mode, especially right now.
It can kind of pull from a lot of
[6:49] different things and it doesn't always
notice the exact details of specific
[6:53] hardware like this just because that's a
very sort of small thing for it to look
[6:58] at and it is tending right now to look
more generally at things. So I what I do
[7:04] is actually go to the visual matches tab
and start using my human eyes that
[7:09] notice the exact details that I need to
look through and find something that's
[7:13] similar.
Places that I tend to look for are sort
[7:17] of reuse sites, eBay, auction sites,
that type of thing. And it's really me
[7:24] taking advantage of the fact that I
don't have every catalog ever memorized
[7:27] quite yet. I don't even really have
every catalog that was commonly used in
[7:31] Geneva quite yet. But, uh, it does
start, you start seeing repeats as you
[7:36] go through town. So, I know that other
people have a lot more experience with
[7:40] this. And I know that if I go on these
auction sites, I can frequently find
[7:43] repeats because they were mass-produced.
So, in this case, on that top left, I
[7:48] saw that that was an exact match up in
Urban Remain Chicago. and I was able to
[7:53] click into it and find that in its
description it mentioned that it was
[7:57] made by the Brford Lock Works. Now, the
one thing I do know is where to find all
[8:02] of these different cataloges because
there's a couple different options that
[8:04] I'll show you in a minute um where they
might be. So, I went to my databases,
[8:09] found some of the Brford Lock Works
cataloges that we still have existing
[8:14] and which are digitized today for free,
which is very nice, and scanned through
[8:19] and found the exact doorork knob and
hinges that I was looking for. This
[8:25] specific catalog was published in 1881.
It was pretty typical that they would
[8:29] sell the same things year after year, or
at least for a couple years. So, there's
[8:32] sort of a range there. And 1881 is
actually really close to that 1883
[8:36] construction date. So now I have the
date construction date of the house
[8:41] narrowed down to within two years of its
actual construction date just from
[8:45] looking up these hinges and doorork
knobs and spending some time going
[8:49] through cataloges and finding what other
people have also been able to discover.
[8:56] So the things that I really pay
attention to when I'm doing research
[8:59] like this is that I'm looking at
regional trends. I know the exoticism
[9:03] was huge around here. I know about when
the Queen Anne and the Italian a sale
[9:08] started coming in and out of style
around here. I also know, for example,
[9:12] for the New Orleans site that cast iron
came into style in the 1850s. In a lot
[9:17] of other places in the US, that came
into style a little bit earlier. So,
[9:21] that helps date things in that way, too.
I also make sure I'm using reliable
[9:24] sources. My goal is always to get to the
primary source. So that's the catalog,
[9:28] not a second or third tertiary source
like those eBay sites that just kind of
[9:33] say what they think it is. I like to
find exactly where things came from. I
[9:37] think that's very important when you're
trying to date things this specifically.
[9:41] And then also just using all the clues
you have. So starting with that style
[9:45] and sometimes you can even go into that
search bar
[9:48] up here and add to your search, you
know, 1850s to 1950s somewhere in the
[9:53] state. I know this house was
constructed. and that'll help narrow
[9:56] down your searches and make it easier to
go through the different listings.
[10:01] So, in conclusion, I mentioned I have
some of those databases that you might
[10:06] be able to find. So, this up on the top
right is one of those cataloges, just a
[10:09] cover page of what a lot of them looked
like. And then a couple databases that
[10:14] are very useful. The building technology
heritage library I've had the most
[10:17] success with that's stored on the
internet archive. It's all completely
[10:20] digitized. Smithsonian Libraries and the
Library of Congress are both partially
[10:25] digitized, but they both have decent
sets of cataloges and things. Uh,
[10:29] usually it'll be called something like a
trade literature collection, something
[10:32] with that name. The um AIC wiki up there
can be very helpful for giving summaries
[10:38] of things like different types of nails
and less specific things. They might not
[10:42] have cataloges, but they have good
summaries of how things were constructed
[10:45] and where those things were used.
And that's really all I've got for
[10:50] today. Any questions?
>> Just a quick little research trick.
[10:56] » How long did it take you to find those
knobs and hinges?
[11:00] » This one?
Probably half an hour to 45 minutes, but
[11:06] I've gotten really quick at flipping
through cataloges. When you first start
[11:11] out, it takes a little bit longer to be
like, "That's not it. That's not it.
[11:14] That's not it." I'm now where I can sort
of pick out. For this one, I was like,
[11:17] "There's a triangle and there's a half
circle." And I just kept going until I
[11:20] found a triangle and a half circle and
that makes it a little faster. So,
[11:24] another good trick.
>> Cool. Thank you.
[11:29] » Cool.
>> Thank you.
[11:30] » And I had a sweets catalog when I
started architecture, [laughter] but
[11:34] they're all gone now. There were It was
14 volumes of stuff. So, but
[11:40] » that's the big thing. It's sometimes you
spend I was lucky and I clicked on a
[11:44] good catalog for this guy like I think
my second try because sometimes you go
[11:48] through all 14 volumes it took
>> exactly
[11:51] » okay
[clears throat]
[11:54] » thank you
>> so interesting to have those resources
[11:57] available to you just sitting you know
at your desk you know and to your point
[12:02] you know you used to have these physical
>> physical cataloges and
[12:06] » now you can figure things out pretty
quickly not using AI though to your
[12:09] point yeah
>> I have a lot of physical builder
[12:12] cataloges and things too that I've just
gotten from people because they're going
[12:15] to throw them out and I don't like to
see that happen.
[12:17] » Yeah.
>> But it's really cool and good to know
[12:20] that these digital copies are so
available to us cuz
[12:23] » Oh, yeah.
>> It's such a nice resource.
[12:25] » It is
[12:29] » very good.
>> Okay. Uh next is uh concept reviews
[12:35] 28 South Fifth Street.
>> Okay. So, we're looking at 28 South
[12:40] Fifth Street. Like Paul said, this is a
concept review. It actually hasn't been
[12:44] purchased yet. So, a lot of this is sort
of getting an idea of what would work
[12:48] with the potential purchasers uh vision
versus what the HBC really is looking
[12:55] for and if that would be a successful,
you know, collaboration.
[13:01] So, we're over here on sort of the
westish middle section of the district,
[13:09] right off of Third Street, pretty close
to the commercial area.
[13:13] And just a quick history on the
property. So, it was originally a
[13:17] residential property. It was constructed
in 1890 for the Henry Child Hawkins
[13:21] family, but somewhere between 1923 and
1930, we know from Sanborn Fire
[13:26] Insurance maps that a rear porch was
added on there. And in 1957, we know a
[13:30] garage was constructed from newspaper
records. In 1968, Betty Johnston got a
[13:37] permit for new porches and walks. That's
also from newspaper records. And in
[13:41] 1994, we know there was a fire in the
attic when it [clears throat] was owned
[13:45] by Lozen, who at the time was more of a
local politician. And you can see sort
[13:50] of the 1903 newspaper excerpt that the
Henry Charles Hawkins family lived there
[13:57] for a time, but after uh Henry Hawkins
passed, it was rented out for some time
[14:01] by his wife and then remained
residential basically until uh the I
[14:07] believe the 80s around 80s and 90s.
[14:14] And then just some permanent history
that we do have on file. In 1994 there
[14:18] was that fire so repair for that and a
fence. 99 the property was re-roofed and
[14:23] there were some signs more signs in
2000. 2006 new walk and steps another
[14:28] re-roofing project in 2012 and more
signs in 2014 and 2023. So it's really
[14:34] been a commercial property
pretty regularly used as such since
[14:39] then.
and we're looking at potentially turning
[14:43] it into an inn or a bed and breakfast
style property. There's a couple
[14:48] locations where work might be performed
that would really undergo HPC review.
[14:52] Excuse me. [clears throat]
Um, one of those is the front porch
[14:56] where we know from Sanborn Fire
Insurance maps that a front porch
[15:00] existed once and no longer does.
Additionally, down on the south kind of
[15:05] facade there, looking at putting that
porch back on too that we know from
[15:09] Sandborn environ maps existed and might
have been enclosed at one point. Just
[15:13] looking at sort of the footprint of the
property. And then also looking at uh
[15:17] creating an addition between the garage
and the house that's existing in order
[15:22] to make that garage into an additional
space for the inn for people to stay in.
[15:26] And then also sort of a welcoming area
into the inn, sort of an atrium space.
[15:32] So, I included a bunch of existing
conditions photos because I think
[15:35] that'll be a big part of the discussion
today is just looking at what might be
[15:40] possible on the facades that are there.
So, you can see sort of in this
[15:44] straighton photo where the porch might
have existed. Also, based on the
[15:48] footprint, it's very possible that that
uh section on the side there that would
[15:52] be the north facade used to be porch and
was enclosed. Obviously, since the house
[15:57] hasn't been purchased yet, not total
investigation hasn't been done to
[16:00] actually what's going on physically
inside there. So, just looking at the
[16:03] outside and the maps and the things that
we do have, that's probably a good
[16:07] guess.
And then just some more photos. So, I
[16:12] it's been raining a lot. Wasn't able to
get to the um house to take good non-
[16:18] rainy pictures myself. These were
actually sourced from the 2016 survey.
[16:21] I'm not sure why I put 1999. And then
those previous photos are from the real
[16:25] estate listing that's online.
And you can kind of see the north side
[16:29] of the property, which is out of view
from the street, but it's good to see to
[16:32] get an idea of everything. And then more
of those side views and where it might
[16:37] connect to the garage there.
And then we've had some sort of very
[16:43] conceptual images submitted so far. I
would note that this porch wraps further
[16:48] than that historic porch did. I included
those sandborn maps up there for your uh
[16:54] sort of comparison at the same time. A
lot of these changes that are sort of
[16:58] happening on this image wouldn't
probably happen on the main properties.
[17:02] So, just really focusing on the
characters of the porches and the
[17:06] characters of that style of potential
addition uh and how that might carry
[17:11] over into the rear as well.
And additionally, one of the other
[17:16] things that the potential owner is
looking at is replacing a lot of the
[17:20] windows because other than the two attic
windows, they're all fixed right now.
[17:24] Um, and the potential owner applicant is
looking at, you know, hopefully having
[17:31] functioning windows. So, what that might
take for discussion as well. And I
[17:37] believe, yep, that's really all we've
got. So Sue, if you want to come up for
[17:41] discussion [cough]
[clears throat]
[17:43] and just introduce yourself for the
record and then we can
[17:46] » My name is Sagato.
[17:53] » I can go to whichever slide we prefer.
If you want to give a little summary of
[17:59] what you're looking at too, that might
be useful. So, I am hoping to create um
[18:04] a small inn um five suites and have it
also be, you know, an area, a
[18:13] destination place that is welcoming, do
tours, do events, and yeah, just have it
[18:21] be more like a a little quaint little
inn for the town. Mhm.
[18:29] » So when you say the windows are fixed,
just out of curiosity, it does it mean
[18:34] what do you mean? Is it fixed glass? Is
it a window that's not operating
[18:38] operable? Is it
>> Yeah. So if you can you can kind of see
[18:42] it in these pictures, but it's confusing
because there's shutters, but they're
[18:45] all single pane glass basically fixed
picture windows right now.
[18:50] » Ah,
they are
[18:52] » other than you can see up top on that
attic,
[18:54] » right? But those are functioning,
>> right?
[18:56] » They've got that
>> there are some double hungs on
[19:00] » all the way on the second and third
floor.
[19:02] » Yeah. [clears throat]
But the first floor are all
[19:10] if they've already been replaced,
which it sounds like they probably have,
[19:17] I don't think the windows that are that
have already been replaced would not be
[19:22] a problem to replace them. They go back
to an operable window. Mhm.
[19:28] » I think
>> Yeah, because you're saying that they
[19:31] were probably would have been operable
in the first place and then someone
[19:33] » It depends on the location and whether
they're original or not, I guess.
[19:39] » I mean, I guess maybe it's a question
for you, Emily. The house was built in
[19:43] 1890.
Is that correct? I mean, were they even
[19:48] capable of making sheets of glass for
windows that size at that time?
[19:54] » It would have been very expensive. So
really the main place that they would
[19:58] have been even considering a picture
window might have been in that little
[20:03] bump out there that um
on the bottom left.
[20:09] But realistically a lot of them would
have been functioning more because they
[20:13] would not have had a lot of other good
climate control solutions and it might
[20:18] not have been as hot as it gets today
but it still would have gotten pretty
[20:22] hot and they would have wanted to be
able to open their windows. So typically
[20:26] would you think they'd be double hung
with would they have typically been one
[20:31] over one or you know four over one or
would there be muttons typically in the
[20:38] windows like that at that time?
>> Um there could have been there could
[20:42] have not been it. A lot of that depended
on what the owner could afford and what
[20:46] the owner kind of preferred when they
were constructing it. I would say almost
[20:50] for sure they would have been double
hung for sure for um that specific
[20:55] detail. The muttons might
[clears throat and cough]
[20:58] take a little bit more research to prove
without putting in sort of
[21:01] unsubstantiated
uh details to the property. We are
[21:06] looking at getting in contact with the
history museum I believe um to get some
[21:10] historic photographs as well which might
be able to show some of those details
[21:14] but yeah double hung would be very very
likely especially like on that second
[21:18] floor front facade there would have been
no reason to spend all that money to get
[21:23] picture windows that you couldn't even
breathe out of during the summertime.
[21:27] » Right. Well, I'm assuming since it's
been a business since 1994 at least,
[21:30] it's probably been replaced. And that's
what they, like you said, probably the
[21:34] cheapest option they probably put around
there for the business cuz they weren't
[21:38] going to open up windows.
>> That's kind of the thought that I've
[21:40] been having. And then if the property uh
if you did end up going through and
[21:44] purchasing the property, really the
easiest way to do that would be just for
[21:47] me to go visit, and we've talked about
this, and look at all the windows and
[21:50] photograph them and
>> Yeah.
[21:52] » see what I can see.
>> Yeah. And if you were to replace them,
[21:56] part of what we would look for is a
window survey to see when they were
[22:00] built, what a good idea when they were
built and, you know, if they were, you
[22:06] know, if they're operable or what shape
they're in, too. So,
[22:10] » absolutely. Um, and then with that,
[clears throat] because if you do have I
[22:15] mean I know that if if any of the
existing ones in the back are double
[22:21] hungs that are that are existing and
original windows, they're probably would
[22:28] almost be better to have those re
refurbished than it would be to have
[22:33] them replaced because if you if you talk
to window people um that refurbish
[22:40] windows. Even
replacing windows,
[22:45] you don't get the quality of window that
you would have got in the 1880s,
[22:50] especially for a a house of this scale
and size.
[22:54] » Yeah.
>> So, um but it could be that somebody
[22:58] came through and changed them all out,
too.
[23:01] » Yeah.
>> So,
[23:02] » I I've I've been in the home um three
times. I I did not see any double hungs,
[23:09] but maybe I missed the back porch, the
ones that are above the back porch.
[23:14] » Yeah,
>> now that I'm trying to remember. Um, but
[23:19] almost every window that I looked at and
I thought I went through there was a
[23:23] fixed glass. So, yeah,
>> I'm I'm happy to replace them. I want to
[23:28] keep the um historical integrity and and
make sure that it looks um as it should.
[23:36] You know, definitely.
>> And I guess what I was just trying to
[23:39] get at was probably double hungs were
originally on the house. And if there's
[23:44] no photographic evidence that they were
one over one or two over two or you know
[23:51] there were muttons
>> you know
[23:55] » what do we think about you know if if
you wanted to include you know
[23:59] » muttons
>> muttons would would that be acceptable?
[24:03] » Yeah.
And I I think we'd probably rely on any
[24:08] photograph, but if there wasn't any if
there wasn't any, it would really be I
[24:13] think it'd be probably up to you about
what
[24:17] what you feel is a I guess
>> period appropriateness. Yeah,
[24:22] » period. There might be more than one
answer to that. It sounds
[24:25] » and there could be. Yeah, especially if
there's no evidence, photographic
[24:29] evidence. It's like, okay, probably
something like, you know, 12 over 12 is
[24:34] not, you know, is not appropriate, but
you know, something else,
[24:39] » something that would have harmony with
the home. Yeah.
[24:41] » Yeah. And and you could get clues maybe
from homes of similar age
[24:47] » in the neighborhood and size. Yeah.
>> Absolutely. because uh
[24:52] yeah, I know that I know that the house
that I'm in right now doesn't have any
[24:58] buttons in it at all. And it the windows
are from 1888
[25:03] or 1890. So
>> pretty close.
[25:06] » Yeah.
>> But
[25:08] » but they're double hung, right?
>> They are double hung and they do not
[25:12] function, but [laughter]
>> but we're working on that. Um but yeah,
[25:17] I think that Yeah. Now, when it comes to
the porch, I guess again it it would
[25:22] [clears throat] be nice to see more uh
historic
[25:27] » Yeah.
>> Uh if there were any historic
[25:29] photographs and if this is a this is a
prominent house in Geneva, I think that
[25:35] you probably will be able to find
something to tell you what what's going
[25:40] on there. Um
>> yeah, I hope I find some. I definitely
[25:46] I'm going to be searching for them.
Yeah, I I think the history center would
[25:49] be able to help you with that.
>> I'm not sure that the uh the images that
[25:54] you put together are,
>> you know, are are entirely appropriate
[26:02] without having any visual. I mean, I
don't think they'd be wrapound porches,
[26:08] but again, without any uh visual
evidence, it it would be tough. Just
[26:16] based on the sandborns, I think I'd be
reluctant to approve a wrap around I
[26:20] mean a wrap around that one corner.
>> Yes.
[26:23] » Exactly.
>> And on the and on the smaller one on
[26:29] » um
>> the
[26:30] » James Street there.
>> Yeah.
[26:33] » That doesn't need to be wrapped around.
That would just be opened up, I would
[26:36] say.
>> Yeah.
[26:37] » Right.
>> And I think
[26:39] » that's just a small little porch off the
side.
[26:41] » And I think there's a clue. There's a
the house right to the north of there
[26:45] has a similar
um wrap around to that sandborn map
[26:50] where it's just you know half of the
front and it wraps around to one side.
[26:54] So
>> you know maybe some clue like that um
[26:58] you know you might take a clue from that
house or others that have a similar
[27:04] » porch to what we see on the sandborn
maps.
[27:10] » Yeah.
Once I am able to I think um
[27:17] if I put an offer in, if I if I am able
to get this building, then I I already
[27:22] had an architect look at it with me
once. Um but we haven't done any work on
[27:27] it yet. So I would keep it to just
what's on the map and do it like from
[27:33] the front door onto the north side. Um
the wraparound there. But um the I did
[27:41] have a question about the front like the
full width of the front there under the
[27:45] windows. There's like a gabled end
return that's just sticking out like
[27:51] that. So do we hopefully we can find
from maybe some photos if there was
[27:57] something under those windows that went
across the whole front. I don't know.
[28:02] Yeah, I think
is it what what's do you know what the
[28:07] sighting is on that right now?
[28:12] » It's uh aluminum.
>> I think it's aluminum. I want
[28:15] » I don't think it's vinyl.
>> I don't think it's wood right now,
[28:18] » but there could be wood underneath it.
I'd be
[28:20] » there. Yeah. And and and the other thing
that that would tell you whether the
[28:26] extent of the porch might help you is if
you if you do a little destructive to to
[28:33] see what's under that aluminum because
there might be
[28:36] » Okay.
>> ghosts of what was back there.
[28:39] » Okay.
>> Yeah.
[28:40] » And investigate on the back side of the
house.
[28:42] » Yes. Exactly.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
[28:45] And that's something I can walk you
through sort of which patches might be
[28:49] useful to take off and was scale because
that's not something where you would be
[28:53] able to take off everything all at once
without a permit or anything. But a
[28:57] little bit of investigative demolition
>> we do allow just to see what we've got
[29:02] going on under there.
>> Okay.
[29:04] » Before you go through with everything
else,
[29:07] » right?
>> Yeah. You don't want to commit to that.
[29:10] » Yeah, I [laughter] know. and and and
once once it's all off it, you're kind
[29:15] of pige holding which way you have to go
back.
[29:20] » So,
>> and we've had that discussion before.
[29:23] » We have we have someone has unearthed,
you know, historic materials through a a
[29:30] demo process and then had to, you know,
>> deal with those proceed with the drive
[29:37] down the road. So, just tread lightly.
Um, the other thing is before you end up
[29:41] um, you know, signing a a contract with
or enlisting the architect to do any
[29:46] work, you might want to have the
architect check in with Emily so that
[29:50] they're not spending, you know, design
hours on something that's maybe
[29:54] » not going to be relevant toward the
cause.
[29:57] » Absolutely.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think that
[30:01] um I think the connection with the
garage and that sort of thing, I think
[30:08] that's something that you c we could
probably
[30:12] we we do allow additions onto buildings.
And I think the one thing that Emily can
[30:19] walk your architect through on how
if they're not familiar with historic
[30:24] preservation, how you can marry the two
buildings together so that the intent of
[30:32] our of lot we we want to see what the
building originally be able to tell what
[30:38] the building originally looked like,
right? And then [clears throat] the the
[30:41] addition is not so much a copy of what's
there, but you can kind of see that
[30:46] there's a break between the two, the old
and the new.
[30:50] » Okay. So, and uh I think there's some
very successful
[30:57] uh I think it's Grahams 318, which is no
longer Grahams 318 is a very successful
[31:04] version of that where they added on to
the building and it didn't it you can
[31:09] still tell what the original building
was.
[31:12] » Right. So,
>> I think in addition on the back there,
[31:16] it to me might be a a tricky thing
because you've got a pretty unique set
[31:22] of roof lines in the back there.
>> Yeah.
[31:24] » That,
>> you know, if you if you put a large
[31:28] twostory addition right smack up against
there
[31:31] » that might be a little overwhelming and
problematic. So, that that's just my
[31:36] opinion. But were you planning on
tearing down that garage or building
[31:41] over top of it potentially or?
>> Yeah. Uh, at first I was thinking of
[31:46] going, you know, on top of the garage
that I think that when I met you, Emily,
[31:51] that was my thought. Um, but after
looking at it again and really doing
[31:57] some more research and discussion about
it, I think the garage would come down
[32:01] completely. there would be kind of a
connector area between the existing
[32:08] structure and the addition and I don't
know how high the addition would be but
[32:14] I it would have a second floor but um
like a connector like similar to well
[32:21] not similar to but I know that
past basket has like a connector
[32:26] building to it and I think um we're
behind
[32:32] Um, Margaret Matson that is like another
building behind there. I don't know if
[32:37] it has a connector, but even Dodson
Place does like so it'll be saying just
[32:43] like a singlestory transition
>> something transition and it could be a
[32:46] nice um vestibule entry guest you know
entry which I think would be nice too.
[32:53] So, it would serve a couple purposes
there and it would have um it would be
[32:58] very bright, very light is what I was
envisioning and then the other building
[33:03] kind of trying to match that roof line
which has all that, you know, asymmetry
[33:09] to it, all the
different things happening. So
[33:13] » yeah, I think that might be a a a way to
start looking at it, you know, as the
[33:18] addition separate, you know, maybe in
that space where the existing garage is,
[33:22] but have it connected by one a one-story
portico of some sort or whatever to the
[33:28] existing building so that you definitely
get that separation between the addition
[33:33] and the old building.
>> Yeah.
[33:35] » Um but it still potentially could serve
your purposes,
[33:39] » right?
>> Yeah. You know, there's like three
[33:41] levels of roof on that
>> building and at least
[33:47] » there's many many levels.
>> And I don't know that I would like, you
[33:52] know, go to the highest level, you know,
that we see here on the front facade.
[33:57] » No.
>> Um, that might be a little overwhelming
[34:00] for the neighborhood.
>> I think so, too. Um,
[34:04] » yeah, but I I do think that and and I
think your architect will find that
[34:09] there's there's I don't know whether the
zoning still is that you take the area
[34:14] of if you slice the building at 20 foot
and then everything if if you're in the
[34:21] if you have lower eaves and you're doing
a story and a half, you actually can put
[34:26] a lot more square footage in per zoning
because of that. because you can use
[34:32] that area under the not under the eaves
but at the eaves to be able to um as
[34:39] floor space. So it's it you're really it
it the and that would also help with not
[34:48] making it overwhelm the existing house I
believe. So that that sort of thing and
[34:55] Emily knows about that. So she would
let your complicated walk your architect
[35:01] [laughter] through.
>> We kind of looked at that that that
[35:03] house on Ford Street recently with that
large addition. Correct. Where
[35:08] » you know they maintained that smaller
one on onetory kind of portico that went
[35:13] from the very small farmhouse type
building to a larger addition. And I
[35:19] don't know if you were thinking about,
you know, applying for the um state tax
[35:24] freeze. Um but
they approved that type of um connection
[35:31] between an an older building and a new
building. So
[35:34] » is that a for commercial?
>> This would probably be more of a tax
[35:39] credit because it would technically be a
commercial building, but I can also do
[35:43] that, too.
>> Yeah.
[35:47] Okay.
Yeah, the tax freeze is for residential
[35:50] and then credit is for commercial
>> and it kind of balances itself out that
[35:57] way, right?
>> That will, just so you know, if you are
[35:59] interested in that, that does kick in a
higher level of review because the state
[36:03] gets involved and the state looks at
both the interior and the exterior.
[36:07] » Okay.
>> But that's totally something I can talk
[36:09] to you about if you're interested.
>> I read through it, but it's a lot.
[36:12] » It's a lot and there's a lot going on
other than that, too. So, totally one
[36:16] piece at a time. Yeah. And and [snorts]
it if it was a commercial building
[36:20] inside, they might have been completely
different than what it was originally.
[36:24] So
>> there aren't any fireplaces and it it
[36:28] doesn't look like there's Yeah. In the
inside there's
[36:32] » I didn't find anything historical,
unfortunately.
[36:36] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. So,
[36:38] » is there even a kitchen in there?
>> No,
[36:42] no kitchen. There's a refrigerator off
the back porch. [laughter]
[36:48] That's historic.
>> Is it historic?
[36:50] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I I I Well, and actually with
[36:55] with the new guidelines, September 1957,
the two-car garage
[37:02] could be considered
historic, but I'm not sure just looking
[37:07] at what it is right now that we would
consider it historic.
[37:14] » Not very significant.
or significant. So, yeah, that
[37:18] » contributing.
>> I mean, you're almost thinking about
[37:22] it's kind of like a an ADU type of
construction,
[37:25] » correct?
>> For that addition that has been, you
[37:29] know, approved previously. So,
>> I'm hoping the addition doesn't even
[37:33] come out as far as the garage is sitting
currently.
[37:37] » So, because the garage almost um comes
right to the property line.
[37:43] » Sure. So, and right to that tree behind
it. So, it would be nice if it if there
[37:49] was like a space there and it didn't
come all the way out that far. That
[37:53] would be almost too big for a building
to be sitting on that corner with
[37:59] as a twotory going all the way to the
back of the garage. I feel
[38:04] » Yeah.
[38:07] Well,
>> in summary,
[38:09] » yes, in summary, I think uh we do look
at those those samps just to kind of
[38:15] give us a hint as to what the old
footprints are. We do try to stick to
[38:19] those things and and make sure that
we're giving a nod to what's uh happened
[38:24] in the past, using historic photos as
references. So, if we see something
[38:28] happening in there that, you know, was
referenced to something historic, we
[38:32] it's nice to see maybe that uh brought
back if it's not there today, like we
[38:37] were talking about the windows and the
details can help give us those types of
[38:41] of insights. Um, seeing the original
frame of the building and making sure
[38:47] that any addition or anything like that
isn't overpowering what's happening. and
[38:52] it sounds like it won't, you know, it'll
be set back enough and we'll still see
[38:55] the the original building and it'll
still be the the primary focus. That's
[39:01] always important as well. So, I think
that um as long as we do that and then,
[39:06] you know, we can work you can work with
Emily in terms of materials and things
[39:09] like that to make sure that we're, you
know, not um swapping out or um
[39:14] replacing things with materials that
wouldn't be, you know, um in kind with
[39:19] what's already there. That's uh that's
what we're looking for. So,
[39:22] » okay.
>> Sound good?
[39:24] » Great.
>> Sounds good.
[39:25] » Thank you.
>> Do you have any other questions?
[39:27] » Not at this moment.
>> I'll be back.
[39:30] » Well, good luck.
>> Thank you so much.
[39:32] » It would be nice to have something
that's of a little different use in that
[39:36] space, I think.
>> Thank you.
[39:38] » Very good. Thank you.
>> Thanks for coming in.
[39:40] » Thanks.
>> Okay.
[39:44] » Move past the fifth street.
>> We're gonna skip fifth street. Okay. The
[39:49] next U item on our agenda is 402
Campbell Street. It's review of building
[39:55] permit application.
>> Okay. So, we are looking at 402
[40:00] Campbell, just a little bit south of
where we just were. Quick history on the
[40:04] property. It was uh erected in 1856 as a
house for Michael Jones/
[40:12] Jones depending on what period of time
it was in the newspapers uh and when he
[40:18] sort of switched to Americanized Jones.
In 1955 it was purchased by Frank W.
[40:24] Harding Jr. from that Jones family. So
it remained in the Jones family for 99
[40:28] years which is pretty impressive. In
1957, the south and west wing additions
[40:32] were in constructed, including the
staircase that we're looking at right
[40:36] now. And in between 2016 and 2018, the
house was remodeled and topouses were
[40:41] added to the property. And during that
time, there was a lot of discussion of
[40:46] different pieces of the house and the
different wings and the staircase, which
[40:49] some of you might remember happening or
some viewers at home might remember
[40:55] happening.
Uh just a couple permit histories on
[40:59] this property. Other than that, in 2016
the windows were done and in 2023 it got
[41:05] a new roof. So like I said, we're
looking at that staircase there, which
[41:09] isn't really in the footprint because
it's a staircase, but I outlined
[41:13] generally where it is on this little
plat. And here are some photos of the
[41:18] existing condition. So the proposal is
really to replace the steel frame of the
[41:23] staircase, not that cast iron there.
That's sort of a it goes by a lot of
[41:27] different names, but one of them the my
favorite name for it is the twisty oak
[41:31] cast iron pattern. Um, and that's still
sort of in production today actually.
[41:36] It's still a pretty popular cast iron
attempt to be built. That all all of
[41:41] those elements would be taken down. The
steel would be replaced and then the
[41:45] cast iron would be put back up. So
anywhere where there's cast iron,
[41:49] there's sort of steel framing it and
that's what would be replaced under this
[41:53] proposal. You can see, especially in the
photos kind of underneath the stairs,
[41:57] and you have some of them online, too,
if it's easier to look at it there. You
[42:00] can see a lot of the pitting happening
in the existing frame.
[42:05] Um, but there's not really a lot of
damage almost at all to the cast iron.
[42:09] So, that's all in good shape. It would
not need to be really repaired in any
[42:13] way beyond being removed for that frame
and then put right back on.
[42:18] And these stairs are especially
interesting because you can see even on
[42:21] the risers they put cast iron in. They
hit it everywhere they could. I think
[42:26] we've had past
permit reviews where it was discussed
[42:30] that this was maybe one of those
situations where it was really the the
[42:33] owner's style in the 50s when that
addition was added on that the property
[42:38] owner was really into sort of this
style. And it wasn't quite that it was
[42:41] of the period, but more that she got to
do what she wanted to do to her house
[42:45] and that's what she wanted to do to her
house. And now we have this very ornate
[42:50] cast iron stair in the district.
very New Orleans like
[42:55] » very New Orleans like. Actually, one of
the cataloges I found it in was uh New
[43:01] Orleans replicas of different cast iron
pieces found out in New Orleans.
[43:08] So, these are just some more of the
existing conditions photos what it sort
[43:10] of looks like from behind and then also
a photo from the street that looks much
[43:15] grayer because I took it on a rainy day.
And then this is just drawings of what
[43:21] that frame would be that would be being
replaced. So we're looking at sort of
[43:24] the stringers and platforms and then
also
[43:29] uh the footings and replacing the frames
for the columns. And if you read your uh
[43:36] documents very very closely, you might
see that sand blasting is on there as
[43:39] part of the estimate. As we know, sand
blasting is not really approved by the
[43:42] Secretary of the Interior Standards
because that's a pretty aggressive
[43:45] method. that sand blasting would not be
on the existing historic materials. It
[43:50] would be on the replacement materials in
order to basically rough it up so that a
[43:54] primer and a a coat of protection,
excuse me, could be applied on site. Um,
[44:02] and it then after that is when the cast
iron would be applied so they would not
[44:06] be touched by the sand blasting. Just
pointing that out because anytime I see
[44:10] that, big red sirens go off in my head
and I want to get ahead of it before
[44:15] they start going off in your head, too.
>> Sand blasting is an aggressive word.
[44:20] » Yeah, even the word is like that's a
crazy visual to have in your head. Um,
[44:26] and that's really the whole application.
So, really replacing those frames and
[44:29] footings and then putting everything
back. Is the second floor landing
[44:36] » being done also or are we just talking
about the first landing?
[44:40] » Yeah, so that's a good question. So, um
it would be kind of a three-phase
[44:44] project
where it would first be the landing on
[44:48] the left, the landing on the right, and
then it would go to the riers and all
[44:52] that up to the second floor in that set.
And actually, we can have the applicant
[44:58] come up and explain that more if you
want.
[45:02] introduce yourself.
>> Yep. Good evening everybody. Chris
[45:05] Landis,
uh owner of Valley Acupuncture and also
[45:08] 402 uh Campbell Street. We uh just
purchased it this year from uh Bob
[45:13] Rasmusen who did the historic um
renovation of this. Did a really
[45:16] phenomenal job. Him and his partner uh
Rick Doll. Um you know, so we're happy
[45:21] to be here in Geneva. And all we're
doing right now was trying to uh you
[45:25] know, just from a structural standpoint,
maintain what we have. Um you can see
[45:28] those columns right there. Um they're
actually subgrade. So those steel
[45:33] columns actually go below um the ground
and obviously, you know, that's just
[45:38] primed for rust. And a couple of those
are starting to rust out. We have some
[45:42] of the boards that are starting to pop
up. The nails are popping up. So it's
[45:45] it's definitely past its point um to to
be replaced. But amazingly, you know,
[45:50] all that ornamental steel is in really
great shape. There's really no rusting
[45:55] um or ornamental rod iron. There's no
rusting going on there. So from an
[45:58] aesthetic standpoint, it'll all stay the
same. Um it'll just be the structural
[46:02] parts such as the stringers, you know,
the step frames, things like that. And
[46:06] to your question, sir, um all that that
second floor right there that stays the
[46:10] same with the exception of, you know,
that stringer that connects in um that
[46:15] that gets replaced on that uh that, you
know, second rise of stairs up there.
[46:19] And there's one little post that's
rusted out and and it's not even there.
[46:23] So we're going to fix that. It's on the
right hand side as you're facing the
[46:27] building. It's just like a little steel
stainless steel post that we're going to
[46:30] weld on there. Just because it's
missing, it looks weird. Um, but other
[46:33] than that, everything will, you know, be
true to what you see right right now.
[46:39] Um, and uh, yeah, it we we like the
looks of it. Even if it's not, you know,
[46:44] from the original building in 1847, it
still looks kind of cool.
[46:49] » It's been there long enough that I think
we'd probably struggle with like, you
[46:52] know, removing it and, you know, not
having it there. Yeah, I know there
[46:57] there [clears throat] were people not of
the of the preservation partners that
[47:00] thought it was inappropriate, but I it
it does have character in my mind and I
[47:06] think that that something to be said
about that. So yeah, I I don't see any
[47:13] issues with it because you're really
replacing in kind
[47:16] » and take the important thing to me is
that the uh u the u the railings and the
[47:24] the the
>> cast iron stuff more than anything else.
[47:29] And I think you're you're answering that
question. So
[47:33] » are are the stair treads wood or what
are they?
[47:37] » They're they're uh Yeah. So the actual
like I guess in terms of like the the
[47:41] steps themselves the they're just like a
wood they're just they're just wood
[47:45] decking. I don't know. I guess they're
missing the correct term there, but it's
[47:48] just you know like typical wood decking
steps that you step on. Then frames
[47:52] themselves are are steel.
>> So are you replacing the wood?
[47:57] » The the wood we're actually going to
it's not in terrible shape. We're going
[48:00] to pop it off, put a couple coats of
paint on there and just just nail them
[48:04] back on. I mean screw them back on
there. Um, we might replace a couple of
[48:08] those, uh, those pieces of of of wood
that, you know, have a little bit of
[48:12] water logged on there. They're starting
to like bend or warp a little bit when
[48:15] there's a lot of humidity. Um, but for
the most part, they're they're they're
[48:18] fine. Um, I guess we could use, you
know, down the line and we'd have to get
[48:22] approval for that is, you know, what is
it? Tyveback or what is it?
[48:25] » TX.
>> TX. Thank you. Tracks. Yeah. A little
[48:27] bit more costly, right? But it it has a
longer duration to it. Then we also have
[48:31] to be mindful of uh you know just
because the residents up on the second
[48:35] floor do come up and down from there. Um
just having something that they can
[48:40] actually grip onto. The nice thing about
wood uh you can get you know from
[48:44] Sherman Williams you can get like you
know matching it obviously to the
[48:47] existing paint but you can get something
with a little bit of coarseness to it to
[48:49] put those granulars so you can actually
and and wood just looks nicer sometimes.
[48:54] So yeah,
>> I noticed that there was some curly
[48:58] maple missing from some of the risers
for the steps like
[49:04] » Yep. Yeah.
>> Are are you going to replace that or are
[49:07] you leaving that or
>> Well, we're going to do is actually when
[49:10] we when they take off and then put back
on, we're going to from the bottom,
[49:14] we're going to we're going to put it
back from the bottom so it doesn't look
[49:17] as awkward because right now when we
bought the building, they're missing a
[49:21] couple up on top. And I I agree it looks
kind of awkward where there's like a
[49:24] part of it missing. Um but yeah, it's
nowhere to be found. You know, it's not
[49:28] on the property. So, we're just going to
take some from the bottom and put them
[49:32] up on the the top when we replace, you
know, when we take it off and then put
[49:35] it back on. That way, there's
uniformness, you know, with it all.
[49:39] » So, there'll be missing pieces on the
bottom.
[49:42] » Yeah, exactly. Yeah. On the bottom, you
won't even notice it just because I
[49:45] think there's only two missing. I think
there's those two right there. Other
[49:49] than that, they're they're all there. So
it'll just be a couple that are missing
[49:51] at that point. You can find that in a
catalog somewhere.
[49:55] » I actually that's the one part because I
did look I started finding all the
[49:58] railings and everything. I was like, "Oh
my god."
[50:00] » Yeah,
>> those are so easy. But those are the one
[50:02] things that are way less easy to find
those pieces on the risers than the rest
[50:05] of it.
>> What are they called? What is that? What
[50:08] is that?
>> Yeah. I don't
[50:09] » There's a term for that.
>> I would like if I was describing it and
[50:14] putting it in a nomination, I would like
a
[50:17] » Yeah.
decorative hanging
[50:21] » riser. I mean,
it's a very riser unique element.
[50:25] » It's actually the riser. So, it's a find
that outative riser. I'm looking. I'm
[50:31] looking.
>> It probably gets kicked out over time,
[50:34] you know.
>> That's very cool.
[50:36] » Yeah.
>> So, one other thing and I'll be done.
[50:39] » Um,
the 2016 photograph.
[50:43] » Yes.
>> Um, there's curly maple on those.
[50:48] um
posts that hold up the second floor. Is
[50:52] are is that missing?
I mean, I know it's So, the two posts on
[50:57] the each side.
>> Oh,
[51:00] » wooden. I I I'm assuming they're wooden
posts.
[51:04] » Yeah, that the one that that's true to
existing right now. I'm not sure if
[51:09] there was if there was some ornamental
steel that was uh or rot iron that was
[51:15] curly maple in nature. Um, yeah, we
don't see any. That's when they did that
[51:20] renovation 2018, they must have um taken
it out. I don't know. At some point,
[51:25] it's but it's it's not there anymore.
>> Okay.
[51:28] » Yeah.
>> Didn't know if it was like in the garage
[51:31] somewhere or something.
>> Well, we do, to your point, we do have
[51:33] some some old and I'm not sure where it
comes where it where it came from, but
[51:38] we do have some some pieces, you know,
still in the the shed. There's a shed
[51:42] out back. And uh at some point, you
know, we'll plan to, you know, I'll be
[51:47] back here to, you know, the windows are
like shot out, you know, it's like one
[51:51] of these things you like try to do it in
steps. Sure. You know, so it's been for
[51:54] us like drainage has been a big thing
this year just, you know, because it was
[51:57] like this old corrugated
um
[52:01] » um what the corrugated pipe, you know,
being that
[52:04] » that black stuff that goes down. We put
like nice PVC so it actually like flows
[52:08] where it's supposed to flow. But and
this is like a big project for us right
[52:12] now that we're going to do, but slowly
pieces. But yeah, to your point, I think
[52:15] there is some old, you know, that that
ro maybe that that's what it's from. And
[52:19] in the shed
>> Yeah. I mean, it's it basically I think
[52:21] was the the ornamental stuff on the
second floor that goes from the from the
[52:26] deck to the roof. That that was
continued from the deck down to the
[52:30] ground.
>> Okay.
[52:32] » I think there's photos of that.
>> Yep.
[52:34] » It basically exactly matched.
And there's the packets over there. You
[52:39] can grab
>> if you ever need a copy.
[52:42] » Oh, that's good.
Um, and I can send you digital copies,
[52:46] too, that you Thank you.
[52:51] » Yeah, you just get the flavor of it on
the 2016 picture. There's just a little
[52:55] bit of
>> Yeah.
[53:03] » Oh, I see what you're talking about.
Yep. Um, that very well could be some of
[53:09] the stuff that we have in our uh our
shed. Um,
[53:13] » or the seller.
>> Looks What's that?
[53:15] » Or the seller.
>> Yeah.
[53:18] » Yeah. I just bring it up. I mean, I'm
not asking you to do that. I just was
[53:22] curious if if you had thoughts of doing
that potentially in the future if it was
[53:26] still available.
>> We're definitely not getting getting rid
[53:28] of it. I saw it there and I was like, we
could use it at some point if some of
[53:31] this ever rusts out. We're trying to
replace it in kind. Um but uh but yeah,
[53:36] that's exactly probably the pieces that
you're speaking to. Um are those are
[53:41] those right there? And like I said, all
the ornamental I'm not sure. It's just
[53:45] it's upheld really well. Probably
because it doesn't get exposed to too
[53:48] much salt. And that's our plan when we
do this. It's just to keep, you know, a
[53:52] better eye on um once we put that zinc
epoxy primer on there and, you know, the
[53:56] polyurethane intermediate top coats just
stay up with that every couple years
[54:01] because it does take a beating with all
the salt. make sure that the tenants are
[54:04] safe.
>> Yes.
[54:07] » Well, I don't see any any other
questions or comments. No.
[54:12] » If if not, can I get a motion to
approve?
[54:16] » Move to approve the stair rehabilitation
at 402 Campbell Street.
[54:22] » Second.
>> Zelmer.
[54:25] » I.
>> Tolbler.
[54:27] » I.
>> McManis.
[54:28] » I.
>> Phillips.
[54:29] » I. Okay.
>> Your motion passes. Thank you very much.
[54:32] » All right. Thanks. Yeah, it's been a joy
having experience it.
[54:35] » Yeah.
>> Thanks for coming in.
[54:37] » Thank you.
>> So, I'll send you an email tomorrow with
[54:41] this review and then building will
continue to finish up the rest of the
[54:44] review so that you can pick up your per
permit soon.
[54:47] » Oh, great on. Do I need to uh reach out
to building at all or just naturally
[54:50] just
>> N forward it on. We try to keep it
[54:53] smooth for you guys.
>> All right. Thank you.
[54:54] » Great.
>> Have a good night.
[54:55] » Thank you.
>> I do love that house. That
[54:59] » Yeah, that thing's awesome.
>> Yeah. Yeah, we uh when we went there
[55:04] with uh with Bob, we leased it at first.
Um and I worked with Calamos. I helped
[55:08] out with their whole real estate
portfolio at Citygate Center. And uh I
[55:12] was going in with my wife, we just took
over the business, made it more of a
[55:15] holistic center. And when we got there,
we were like, man, we can't imagine it
[55:18] like the business anywhere else, you
know, just because it has so much
[55:21] character there. And people, you know,
from all around the Tri Cities used to
[55:24] go there and they're just like you feel
like you can actually heal once you walk
[55:27] into the building. just it those uh
those buildings just there's a presence
[55:31] there. That's awesome to have that kind
of use in that building.
[55:34] » Exactly.
>> Yeah.
[55:35] » And that rot iron steer
>> that's Yeah, that thing is
[55:41] great.
>> Yeah, they they uh Yeah, they've got
[55:44] they've got their fair share because I
forget what the insurance company was,
[55:47] but it was like the largest
>> I think it was a cattleman's insurance.
[55:49] » Yeah, it was it was the largest one east
of Mississippi. They insured the most
[55:53] cattle. Yeah. It was wild. So yeah, it's
fun working with Bob and Rick. They're
[55:57] really good people.
>> Great.
[56:00] » Thank you very much. Thanks.
>> Okay,
[56:05] now that our public has left, [laughter]
>> secretar's report.
[56:11] » All right, kind of not a lot of going
on, but also kind of a lot going on. So,
[56:15] I'll get real quick. Uh, building permit
update. Only three cases
[56:18] administratively approved this month. Uh
for those of you keeping an eye on
[56:22] what's going on with the comprehensive
plan sort of build out that we've been
[56:26] doing, we're expecting an existing
conditions report to be presented
[56:30] sometime in September and that'll be in
front of council and PCC. Um currently
[56:36] it's being edited and going through
several layers of edits. The next HPC
[56:40] meeting is September 15th. So the
materials for that will be September
[56:44] 1st. I already have two projects that
you all can expect to see that. So those
[56:48] are in progress. And then this is just
something that's happening nationally
[56:52] that I want to make sure the commission
is aware of and anyone sort of
[56:56] interested in preservation in the
community is aware of. Um these two QR
[57:00] codes will take you both to a couple
different resource pages on what's going
[57:05] on. Section 106 is basically the part of
the national register the n national
[57:12] historic preservation act which keeps an
eye on regulation of properties that are
[57:18] federally owned or affected by federal
money or regulation. So that's the
[57:22] review that goes on anytime anything
um involving federal money really gets
[57:29] involved on historic properties. So
there is a proposed several proposed
[57:35] changes to section 106 right now that
are being reviewed at several layers
[57:39] that's not officially open for public
comment yet, but you can comment uh talk
[57:44] to your congress people and governors
and not sure people about it right now.
[57:48] These both of these websites that
they're linked will announce when the
[57:51] public comment officially opens. If you
are interested in making a public
[57:54] comment, anyone is welcome to. That's
how the democratic process works, I
[57:59] guess you could say. Um the major
changes that are important for us to be
[58:04] aware of as a commission and as a local
government are and as a a CLG
[58:10] is that the proposed changes will really
restructure the consultation process. So
[58:16] agencies would have more of the power
over that consultation process rather
[58:20] than it being what it is now which is
led more separately from the agencies
[58:24] with very set people involved. the
agencies would really have the choice
[58:28] over who would they would be getting
involved in the timing of that process.
[58:32] So right now as cogs we have the right
to comment on anything happening within
[58:36] our bounds and they're also required to
look at what sort of citizens have to
[58:41] say and different preservation
organizations locally have to say. They
[58:45] would have a lot more of a choice were
this to be approved over who they would
[58:49] be speaking with and that would all
happen at the end of the process. they
[58:53] would circulate a report rather than
gathering comments throughout the
[58:56] process and having it be more sort of a
discussion.
[59:01] Um, also good to just know about with
these differences is that it would
[59:05] reduce review requirements in general.
So, it's really reducing review to uh
[59:13] much smaller spaces. They're saying
compact areas basically. So, cultural
[59:19] landscapes, which I've talked about in
meetings before, really would lose a lot
[59:23] of their review because they're a larger
area. It's specifically looking now at
[59:27] areas that have been like specifically
constructed. I don't know the exact
[59:30] wording, but specifically constructed
historically by humans. So those
[59:34] landscapes and areas where it might have
be, you know, sacred spaces for Native
[59:38] American land, not totally touched by
human hands, but still very historic,
[59:44] would undergo a very different level of
review and essentially a lower level of
[59:47] review. And they're also looking at
lowering review for anything outside of
[59:52] direct action. So that includes things
like view sheds would be considered much
[59:56] less. Uh effects on sound would be
considered much less, things like that.
[1:00:00] things that are expected to happen a
long time in the future might be
[1:00:04] considered a lot less than things that
are more direct like for example a
[1:00:07] window replacement. So like if we were
looking at a window replacement under
[1:00:11] section 106 the changes would be this
window's getting replaced where
[1:00:15] currently we look at this windows
getting replaced and in 50 years that's
[1:00:19] what that might mean. So all of those
are really just details to be aware of
[1:00:24] under these changes. Like I said it's
undergoing a review process. This
[1:00:28] National Trust QR code up there has a
lot a lot of information and a lot of
[1:00:32] links to other websites that are
explainers. They've been doing webinars
[1:00:36] about every two weeks on it that are
free. You can attend. The NAPSY National
[1:00:41] for Preservation Commissions has just
started putting their work out on it.
[1:00:44] They're also doing a webinar in the next
few weeks. You all have actually a
[1:00:49] printed out copy of what that QR code
goes to in your documents so that it's
[1:00:54] easier to access. and they're really
giving summaries based on how that
[1:00:58] affects the local commissions, which
will be more helpful for your
[1:01:01] understanding of what's going on. We
don't have a lot a lot of section 106
[1:01:05] reviews in town, but 302 North River is
an example of one that did undergo
[1:01:09] section 106 review and that did end up
having some requirements put in place
[1:01:14] due to that review, including that the
one house that's left was preserved as
[1:01:19] part of that section 106 review. And a
lot of artifacts and things like that
[1:01:22] are preserved in our plan to be
integrated into the new construction
[1:01:26] there. And that was all part of that
review process. So, just to be aware,
[1:01:32] um, just to be able to do any research
that you want to do on it. Like I said,
[1:01:38] comments are not open yet officially for
the actual edits, but you can reach out
[1:01:43] to people now if you want and then to be
aware later, the city does plan on
[1:01:48] putting up a comment when the time
comes.
[1:01:52] » How does that affect the the state and
>> Illinois Shipo? Are they being cut out
[1:01:57] of a lot of things or
>> Yes. And we expect a lot of confusion in
[1:02:05] general if it was to happen. Um just
because it's a major change to something
[1:02:11] that's been happening since the 60s.
So a lot of that would be not only would
[1:02:16] the state have sort of a different level
of review than they're accustomed to,
[1:02:21] but also just getting used to those
changes. I would expect that uh there
[1:02:25] would be some slowing down of certain
things, not due to any fault of anyone
[1:02:30] in particular, but just getting used to
things would take a minute for other
[1:02:34] reviews to happen as well as all of that
was happening and processing through the
[1:02:40] Shipo. The state historic preservation
office is has some federal funding and
[1:02:44] then also has some state funding. And in
Illinois, we're really lucky that we've
[1:02:48] been able to keep a lot of our state
funding through the different changes
[1:02:51] that have been happening with historic
preservation recently. Um, so they're
[1:02:56] able to run a little bit more
efficiently than some other states. Um,
[1:02:59] but I would expect to see a little bit
of slowing as things changed over and
[1:03:07] new processes were kind of put into
place, if that makes sense.
[1:03:10] » Do people expect lawsuits to be filed to
prevent this? the National Trust uh page
[1:03:18] actually describes
some of the lawsuits that are sort of
[1:03:22] being planned if it were to go into
place. And there are a few other sort of
[1:03:29] national organizations that are less
philanthropic and more based on um sort
[1:03:35] of encouraging preservation. So that
that would really be involved in that
[1:03:39] that have stronger legal teams. There
are similar organizations to the ones
[1:03:43] that are currently working on projects
like the uh projects at the White House,
[1:03:50] » the demo of the ballroom kind of thing.
Yeah.
[1:03:53] » Gotcha.
>> And um things like the the arch and that
[1:03:59] type of
>> the OB.
[1:04:03] » All right. I have one more comment on
any of that at this point.
[1:04:06] » Just just to be aware, I've been keeping
an eye on it. Um, and I will continue to
[1:04:11] keep an eye on it and if anything gets
updated that really directly affects us
[1:04:15] here, I'll make sure everyone knows.
>> Great. Thank you very much.
[1:04:19] » That's all I've got.
>> Great. Um, new business. Any questions
[1:04:24] from the commission?
>> Nope.
[1:04:29] » If not, um, I get motion to adjourn.
I'll make motion to adjurnn.
[1:04:40] » Second.
>> All in favor? I.
[1:04:42] » Anyone oppose? No.
[1:04:46] [music]