[7:27] Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. It is September 28th, 2026. And this is the.
[7:37] Second meeting of the month for the Georgetown Select Board. Um, first thing we'll do is we'll, uh, uh, prepare to go into the meeting and then a pledge of allegiance. And we'll go through the agenda items, not necessarily in order tonight, but but first, just prepare yourselves to, to, uh, for this meeting.
[8:17] Thank you. Pledge of allegiance.
[8:24] I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
[8:40] I wonder if there is.
[8:50] Okay. Well, we started.
[8:56] Okay. So.
[9:00] I don't see any announcements. Uh, is there any public comment on items that are on the agenda? Hearing none will go forward. Uh, then the first item on the list of the meeting minutes from September 14th and September 22nd. And, uh, I'd like to take them individually. So for the 14th, I'm sure you all had a chance to review them.
[9:36] And were there any comments or changes that you found that need to be? S2:
[10:00] For the build cost.
[10:02] I thought it said I thought I was taking this as the revenue.
[10:07] The tax income.
[10:08] I don't have that one.
[10:10] It's on page two of the.
[10:12] Yeah. No, I remember it was we expected over $1 million in revenue.
[10:17] Didn't mind.
[10:17] Getting. Um but I don't recall off the top of my head what we stated for the build cost. So yeah, roughly 800,000 unit per build cost. I mean, when you include the road and.
[10:32] Okay, so just to set out to me, I could have sworn I thought I asked the question, how much would we expect in yearly tax revenue? I thought it was answered as about three quarters of a million, I believe.
[10:44] I mean, I can go back and double check.
[10:46] Okay. And then the other one was we on the, um, milfoil, um, you know, there was some back and forth and only um Mr. Dawes was name was mentioned. And I don't know if you want to put a little more, more color into that conversation.
[11:01] What page is that on? What's the headline?
[11:04] It's the milfoil. Those are my only two comments.
[11:29] What are the comments would be in there.
[11:32] Well, I mean, again, you were the only one that was mentioned and there was some more back and forth. I don't know if you want to add a little bit more.
[11:39] You want to identify who was speaking.
[11:42] A little bit. I think it you know, I think it might help, but if you guys don't want to, I mean, that's fine too.
[11:52] I don't have anything to add. What would you like to add? Does anybody have anything to add? Laura. No. Mike.
[12:05] So did you have anything in specific in mind? S2:
[12:10] Okay. Well, then why don't we leave that where it is and, uh, moving forward, if people would like to, uh, they can review that meeting online, you know, on the cable. Sure. And, uh, I believe the zoom is recorded.
[12:31] Well, that's what's on the cable, right? S3:
[12:39] All right. But they can go. People can go on to GC TV. Yes. Right. Okay. And then we'll, uh, we'll make an effort to, uh, uh.
[12:57] Be more explicit. I think that what can happen is prior to a meeting that if we let the minute taker know there's some issues, we can bring that up.
[13:07] Yeah. And unfortunately, I didn't, you know, I, I didn't really have a whole lot of lead time.
[13:12] Okay.
[13:13] So Mr. Chair, a couple.
[13:16] Sure. Uh. My good.
[13:19] That was it. Uh, just to be.
[13:21] Consistent with what we're trying to do all along with the meeting minutes. Uh, Board of selectmen would be select board in the title.
[13:31] Yes.
[13:32] Just so that all. They say that from now on and selectmen present would be members present. And I think I think you have it on the September 22nd. Yeah. You do. But there should be a page number one of however many there are for this.
[13:49] Oh yeah. We did talk about page numbers on this. Yes.
[13:52] This should be standard.
[13:54] Which is just a in words. Yeah. You can just do that.
[13:59] That's all I.
[13:59] Have. Okay. So if there's no other discussion, uh, Mr. Doby will be, uh, was absent. So he'll be abstaining probably. So if there aren't any more conversation about this, then the chair will entertain a motion to accept the minutes of the select board meeting from September 14th, 2026 as, uh, edited.
[14:26] So moved.
[14:27] Second.
[14:28] Okay, so that's.
[14:31] I'm just going to look at that one line item on the, on the cost to build out.
[14:35] Yes.
[14:35] Okay, perfect.
[14:44] Is there any further discussion? Hearing none.
[14:47] All in favor? S2:
[14:48] Aye.
[14:50] Any abstentions? S2:
[14:51] Adobe abstained. So it's 4 to 0. And one abstention. Oh.
[14:56] Whoops. Sorry.
[15:00] Moving to September 22nd, 2026. Same thing. Is there any comments from anybody on the board regarding this?
[15:18] No. No hearing none. The chair will entertain a motion to accept the Select Board minutes from September 22nd, 2026 as presented.
[15:29] So moved.
[15:30] Second.
[15:32] Okay, we have a motion and a second.
[15:35] All in favor? S2:
[15:36] Aye.
[15:37] And any abstentions? Adobe. Adobe abstains four to 0 to 1 abstention.
[15:45] Put it right there.
[15:49] Okay.
[16:00] Okay. In your handbook, we have an appointment for the Council on Aging. Um, the co director was here at our last meeting and we had that information. So I think that we're just, uh, have the formality of appointing moniker. I gotta read here to the Council on Aging and her term would expire June 30th, 2027. So do we have any comments regarding that? No. Then I'll take a motion to appoint Monica Chouinard to the Council on Aging term to expire June 30th, 2027.
[16:46] So moved.
[16:47] Second.
[16:48] Okay.
[16:56] What's wrong Mike? S1:
[17:00] All in favor? S2:
[17:00] Aye.
[17:00] I will accept abstention.
[17:04] Okay.
[17:05] Since I wasn't here for it.
[17:07] Okay. Four to 0 to 1 abstention for Mr. Dobey.
[17:18] Okay. Next is Kurt Slavinski, the Whittier school update.
[17:27] Correct. You have this, too, because I just had to come in as I was doing the packet. So basically any report we get from. From where? Uh, good.
[17:36] Evening, Chairman Dawes. Rest of the Select board. Orlando. Um, I just wanted to give a little update on the possibility of a new Whittier Tech, uh, school building project at the NEC. Um, campus. Um, as we all know, in early 2024, um, the vote for a new school in the current site was voted down in ten out of the 11 communities. Um, I'm hoping this time around it will be a little different with all the 11 cities and towns, um, participating in the process this time. I know Orlando has been pretty much at every meeting, so he's aware of a lot of things going on and, uh, some of the behind the scenes stuff, um, the MSBA has, um, us looking at several options, um, this time around. Um, some of those are, uh, um, sorry. Uh, upgrades to the current school building a school at the current site and then on the NEC campus.
[18:38] As opposed to a new building or.
[18:41] A new building on the NEC campus. Um, uh, and Orlando is on that committee as well as, um, um, the building committee, uh, one, so they're in the process of, um, going to hire an OPM, um, soon. Um, but I know a lot of people, uh, a big issue is the, um, regional agreement, which is kind of not equitable for any of the towns, uh, except for one. Um, I won't name who, but um, but we've been meeting at the RAC for the last year plus, um, and trying to change that agreement to make it more fair and equitable for all the towns, cities and towns.
[19:29] Um, so where do we stand with that?
[19:31] Um, right now we've had some votes, um, where the voting has been, they want to go per pupil as far as it's more the um I think they've agreed on a lot of things except for the capital cost is. Yeah. I mean I would kind of speak to that a little bit.
[19:52] I would say that's that's been the item that.
[19:54] That's.
[19:55] The thorn in the side. We can't seem to resolve that. And so it stymies everything else.
[20:02] Yeah.
[20:03] So Lebanon, they took a vote and ten out of the 11 voted to go to a per pupil formula. Um one town abstained. We all towns have to vote yes unanimously to get anything to pass one town. It doesn't favor going to that formula. So they had a representative.
[20:28] From Salisbury Town Manager Neil Harrington. Um, he brought up a 5050 um, uh, formula hybrid model where it's 50% based on. The current regional agreement and 50% on pupil to try to, you know, come to the middle a little bit. There's probably 3 to 4 towns that are digging their heels in about wanting to just go to the. Per pupil. Um, but the other thing people are forgetting is they were going to vote in a two thirds majority vote. Instead of everybody unanimously having to pass it. Um, so which is a big, in my opinion, it's a big, it's a big thing to ask.
[21:07] Um, what about the other, um, the other form of doing it was by population.
[21:14] Population. The uh, the home assessment cost in that town.
[21:20] Um, yeah. There was an equalized value component. Um, and so that, that disproportionately impacts specifically like in Newburyport, that has.
[21:34] Less than ten kids.
[21:35] High value, less than ten kids. So they, they're very small portion of the enrollment, but a much larger portion of the assessment compared to the enrollment, right. They in particular would like to see this formula changed. Um, for reasons which are obvious.
[21:52] I may I ask another question? Certainly I was part of the movement to not do that project.
[22:01] I remember you specifically in the library. Uh, I was, I literally was, I just got voted in and I come to that meeting and it was just like, what did I get myself into? Um, I think nobody knew what was going on.
[22:18] It well.
[22:20] And the assessment is.
[22:22] I'll be reclaiming my time. Yeah. Um, I, I have have the, uh, powers that be learned anything from that thrashing they took.
[22:34] I believe they have. And Orlando can speak to that too. But they're including all the towns now and going through this whole process. So now everybody's aware of what's going on. Um, we know we need to save money and we knew we need to change the regional agreement because it's not fair and equitable for ten out of 11 towns, to be honest with you. So those that one town needs to pay. They have the majority of people going to that school. They need to pay what they need to pay. Now, that being said, to defend them a little bit, they can't fully take that on right away. Right.
[23:12] We've heard that one before.
[23:14] Well, I mean they have budgets too, you know, and we, I, they have a model of, you know, 50/50, but then revisit it every five years to make it get to that per pupil number, you know, so we can work towards it. You know what I mean? We should have some middle ground to start at. Not just. No. This is the way it's got to be.
[23:38] I think that we all recognize the value of Whittier.
[23:44] Yeah.
[23:44] But again, if you remember some of the things that stuck in my craw, I'll give you a brief test. You remember.
[23:52] Go ahead.
[23:53] Well, for one thing, it was the way it was presented to us. Like we were children.
[23:59] Yeah.
[23:59] I mean, that stupid slide show, they gave us no respect. The other thing was they just automatically assumed that we were going to buy into that high cost building. It was like a Taj Mahal. It was like they were in La La land making these decisions, and then we all had to accept it. That's the reason I was angry. And I would do it again, because I think in the end, it worked out better for everyone.
[24:30] I'm not going to disagree with you like I'm a taxpayer in this town. It was a lot of money. I am. Yeah.
[24:36] Yeah. I mean, even I had said it's the number is just such an obscene number. And I'm not saying the building wouldn't cost that under construction. I mean, I think I had conversations with with Kara a number of times. Kara Cosmos, the school business manager. I think she was legitimately nervous, like, we need this. It's not a matter of what you need at 400 plus million, it's a number. Nobody here has ever seen before. It is a number that is rivaling, you know, the Newton North sort of type projects, which are now obviously a lot more. Yeah. But you know, you're you're talking about 400 million divided by 11 and then only.
[25:26] Not fairly divided.
[25:27] Yeah. And then only sending up. And it's important to send those kids, but you're still only sending 50, not even 50.
[25:35] Kids. Yeah.
[25:36] And you're still paying for them.
[25:37] Yes.
[25:38] Right. I mean, it isn't. So you pay one and don't pay the other. So so I'm I'm distrustful. Let me put it to you that.
[25:46] We need to earn your trust back.
[25:47] Because I, you know, the way it was handled the last time, it's. And yes, maybe I overreacted, but I'm not going to be treated as a child.
[25:58] Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. It was handled badly on both sides a little bit there.
[26:02] Well, I'll admit to that.
[26:03] Yeah.
[26:04] Well, and nobody's ever accused you of being subtle, but I do think whether it Happens or not. I think they've realized that there's a. The fundamental problem is before you even get to the building. We have to address how we're going to pay for it on a macro level. Meaning through the, um through the regional agreement, which hasn't been touched since 1974. So the formula of 1970 4th May have worked then, but it doesn't today. And maybe shame on us for not having revisited it sooner as communities. But we are where we are. That has to change because it doesn't matter what the building costs. I mean, I suspect that the building is going to be dramatically less now, since you're sharing facilities and you've removed a lot of site work and some of those other things.
[26:57] That was not reimbursable.
[26:58] Yeah. So you had you had a very expensive building that had a lot of components that didn't even qualify for your MSBA reimbursement. So no, there was no money to help offset that. This project is a lot different. But even if you get to 200 million or 150 million, I don't think the number matters. If everybody feels like they're not that the way to pay for it hasn't changed.
[27:24] Yeah.
[27:24] Regardless of whether it's 400 million or 200 million, the taxpayers still have to pay for it.
[27:30] Yeah.
[27:31] And there's no way around that. And the problem that I have with all of these things is that you're forcing a lot of people out of town because they're going to be unable to pay the taxes, people on fixed incomes, people that don't make the big salaries. There's only so much that you can get out of a taxpayer before it becomes ludicrous, as was the original proposal. Did the plight of the taxpayers wasn't even considered? And I think that's the biggest thing I'm concerned about is the taxpayers. Yeah.
[28:07] And I think that has been a focus on this agreement and on the building committee as well. I think they heard they heard those 1011 towns say no very loudly. So they understand what they're up against. Um, there's also another district looking to get a school that's within the Whittier district. So it's a tough road to hoe to get there. Um, I will say that if we don't do anything and we keep the same regional agreement, we're still paying the same amount. I think that regional agreement needs to be changed if we get a new building or not.
[28:46] Well, I think the other thing too is we have to kick the state people in the rear end because they're sitting on a lot of money. And I think that now has come the time where they have to share it with the cities and towns.
[29:04] I think there has been at some discussion of the. From the 11 towns, and there's been a few meetings with the Lieutenant Governor as well, that this millionaire's tax and the billions that are there, a portion of which goes to education should be used to offset projects. A portion of projects like this, because the MSBA formula treats a vocational high school the same way it treats a non vocational high school. The problem you have with that, and I've dealt with it in two other situations, is your cost per square foot to build a vocational high school is much higher because there are nuances to a vocational high school that don't exist to another high school. And Essex Tech is a perfect example. Minuteman is a perfect example.
[29:51] I think the schools such as these are taking on more and more responsibility and expanding the educational opportunities. Then the state should look to supporting them. They support the community colleges. I would say that Whittier is probably a precursor to another level that leads into university and college.
[30:13] Yeah, I would agree with that. Um, I think there needs to be more money for this type of schooling. Um, and I think that's why they're kind of pushing towards the Neco campus and more of a collaboration with them. So we could get more funding from the state that way. Um they are pushing for more um programs as well. So and adding more, more kids. But what does that do for the smaller towns? That takes some of those kids out of that school system and takes them to a regional school that's hurting that town. So there's a lot to work there.
[30:51] You know, we're going through that.
[30:52] Yes we.
[30:53] Are anyway. Yep. Regardless of what happens at Whittier.
[30:56] Right.
[30:57] Um, things have changed and we have to adapt.
[31:01] Yeah I agree.
[31:03] But MSBA did give us clear guidance and there was definitely some push for larger Whittier from a feasibility study standpoint to build a larger building to accommodate all the applicants. And MSBA was very clear, I think 1200.
[31:18] Uh, they gave us up to 1500.
[31:20] Up to 1500 to.
[31:21] 15.
[31:22] Yeah. But in some years you're getting 2200 applicants.
[31:26] Yeah.
[31:27] Well.
[31:27] And you could, if you built a building that big that could accommodate all those students. And I struggle with this myself because you want every student to go where they where they want. You could disproportionately impact your other school districts. And that is not good. So there has to be some balance there.
[31:49] I don't know why in recent history, meaning to say the last 30 or so years where the pendulum swings on vocational schools, or what do you want to call it? Trade school. But there was a point in time where 60 some odd percent of the students in the vocational schools were all under chapter 766 IEPs. So they were taken. Loading. All the special ed students, the schools, the public schools were dumping them to vocational schools under just the label. You'll do better there. Yeah, right. And then now that has shrunk back. And we have a number of students that want to leave the public school because they don't like the public school. So they figure I'll get a better education at Whittier, but they have no intention of many of them of going into any vocation. So, so that pendulum has swung this way. It's got to come back someplace in the middle. And I don't I don't want to comment on the lottery system, but.
[32:53] I think that but I think the state.
[32:54] System, the state forced us to do that, which was.
[32:58] Part of it. Yeah. Um. I think there is. Hey, Doug, this is one of those things where you see the surveys and the answers are all over the place because it's never any one answer. Part of it is more kids are looking at trades because of the cost of higher education. Um, more kids are looking at trades because of wage escalation. Um, more kids are looking at trade because they think it's funner.
[33:26] And opportunity.
[33:27] The opportunity is there right now.
[33:28] I understand, but I.
[33:29] Mean.
[33:31] You have a lot I don't, I won't, I won't rehearse it. There's a lot that folks that are using the vocational school just to we don't want to stay here.
[33:40] And I think the other thing, and you hinted on this a little bit, but what the schools are now doing is a little bit different. The trade schools have evolved. The vocational high schools have evolved a lot over the last 30 years. And computer science and engineering and architectural prep. And those were not programs that deviated to those schools 30 years ago. And they do now.
[34:05] Yeah. Because you're not just talking about woodworking and plumbing. You're talking about.
[34:11] Robotics, right? Right. AutoCAD.
[34:14] And I think that what happens is, and I'll be honest with you, Doug, going back, if I had the opportunity to go to Whittier or Lynn English High School, I would have gone to Whittier because it's the opportunity and it's the ability to come out of there with some. You could come out there and.
[34:30] Make a good paying.
[34:31] Job. Thousand dollars.
[34:33] Yeah. In some cases, yes.
[34:35] Yeah.
[34:36] There's no you know, there's nobody going to argue the benefit of trade vocational school.
[34:41] Right.
[34:41] And that's something we in Georgetown and the other cities and towns we cannot offer. And they're they're fulfilling a niche that's opened up.
[34:49] And that's, that's very much needed because everyone that retires, you know, every five that retire, we're only putting 1 or 2 back into that spot.
[34:58] So what happens if we don't get if we don't get the intermunicipal agreement and it just stays the same? Are we still looking at a project at echo?
[35:07] Or if we don't get a regional agreement, then there's no project, any project.
[35:12] No project.
[35:13] At all.
[35:14] We won't. We won't have the votes.
[35:15] So no. So. So MSBA wants us to change the agreement. Okay. That's part of the agreement. I agree with this. Way forward. So there has to be an agreement some way somehow.
[35:27] Okay. Even if we change the agreement, I'm not sure we have the votes in all the communities to pass this. I still think we definitely don't. If the agreement doesn't change.
[35:35] I still think we need to change that agreement, even if we don't build a building, because the capital assessment going forward to fix this school, after doing a walk through last week of how really how bad it is behind the scenes that you don't see, there's a lot going on.
[35:51] Mister chair?
[35:51] Yeah, sure.
[35:54] So as of today, is it fair to say that this discussion of 5050 and whatnot that was introduced, I have you moved forward? Has the ball moved forward from the last vote? And what Ed's talking about?
[36:10] I would say no, no.
[36:14] It's moved laterally.
[36:16] Yes, we have had some new members come in and they're looking to do some maybe some other models, which they're going to bring to the meeting in October. Um, and I think that's where it's got to, that's where we're going to make a decision of which way we're going. Uh, at that point.
[36:35] Uh, how long is before we have to send something to MSBA?
[36:41] I believe it's late 27, early 28. Yeah.
[36:46] So let me just interject there, Doug, is our deadline for MSBA on a feasibility study is is 27 May 27th.
[36:56] 27.
[36:56] The problem is a feasibility study is going to cost $1 million, if not more. And why do a feasibility study if you don't have.
[37:07] Support.
[37:08] You don't have support for the agreement. You're better off taking $1 million and pumping it back into the building.
[37:13] Why spend the 1.5 million on the sure on the agreement, on the feasibility study?
[37:18] So I am, and I'm not alone. But I am one of the folks who is. You want to hire an OPM? Great. I think getting somebody on board who can manage the process is fine. But before you sign a contract with an architect, we should know. We should know whether we actually have a viable project or not, because otherwise I don't see how any of us can come back if it's me, my boards, um, or the select board to their voters and say, we we did this right.
[37:51] I just is there a potential that you a contract could get signed?
[37:56] Uh, I mean.
[37:57] I'm only one vote, so I mean, yeah, somebody could say, yeah, let's.
[38:01] Because.
[38:02] That that's just crazy.
[38:03] Yeah. Some I mean, somebody could say, listen, we're going to take a leap of faith and hope it all happens. But you know, I'm, I'm not really feeling great, Rob, to be honest with you right now. I mean, I've been in these things from the start, from the first project I've seen. I've seen it all happen. And, you know, we have 2 or 3 communities who really don't like the 50/50 formula. And I think that is as far as you're going to get Haverhill up front. Now, the mayor there has said, you know, she's put in all these other caveats that, you know, I will agree to the two thirds as long as we keep the existing formula for ten years. I mean, ten years goes by quickly, but it's still ten years.
[38:53] Why I support. I mean, obviously the per pupil enrollment would be better for us at Georgetown, but the 5050 I don't think is also that bad. And anything anything.
[39:06] Is an.
[39:06] Improvement is an improvement from what we have. And I think that's what people are missing. That's what the communities who are saying we want more are missing is that if we do nothing, we actually have the worst case scenario because we have no project. You have a building that is going to need millions of dollars worth of work. And when I mean millions, I'm not saying 1 million. I'm talking 30, $40 million plus.
[39:30] Yeah, because it's not 80 compliant. There's a lot of things going on with that.
[39:34] So you got to have to deal with all those code issues and what that's going to trigger.
[39:37] No sprinkler system.
[39:38] Then you're going to have to pay for that under a capital formula that's punitive with no MSBA money. There's nothing but bad that comes out of doing nothing. And even if doing something isn't great, I think this is where the art of compromise has to come in to kind of move all 11 communities forward.
[40:00] And that's I'm sorry. Go ahead. And that's why I think the 50/50 is a good start. Yeah, a good start. And then next five years we go 45, 40, 60. You know, just keep moving that needle to, you know, down the road.
[40:18] So even at 5050.
[40:22] That should be beneficial to all the schools, right?
[40:26] Yes.
[40:26] Everybody would.
[40:27] I mean, there's one city that will pay more. Yeah. Because of that.
[40:33] But they've agreed.
[40:34] But they've agreed to.
[40:35] Pay more to do that.
[40:36] Right. Yeah. Yeah. In the two thirds vote, which is I think everybody's missing a little bit.
[40:42] Because that's will avoid this situation in the.
[40:44] Future that we're in now of everybody needing to.
[40:47] Unanimity amongst 11 amongst 11 communities.
[40:54] Is.
[40:54] Incredibly difficult. I mean, I was at Chili's the other day with my daughters, and they couldn't agree on what to get on a menu that I said, get whatever you want. Try to get 11 communities of different at different financial points with different capital obligations lingering. Now we're not looking at new schools. But, you know, I think both the chiefs have said, you know, we're very much investigating a public safety facility. You know, so we're not without our own obligations that we're looking at.
[41:32] Right.
[41:33] That's a difficulty. Well.
[41:35] And I don't want to sacrifice Whittier to accomplish what the town's needs are because we have a fiduciary responsibility to those students, but it's it. All these things weigh on you when you're making these decisions, like how do you do it all? Or what gets punted a little while so you can do one thing and let that sort of become part of the budget, and then something else has to wait because you can't load up too much debt at any one given time.
[42:06] You know? And this debt's probably not coming on the books for ten plus years, I would imagine.
[42:11] Yeah. I mean, I think it'll take, I would say.
[42:14] Six.
[42:14] 6 or 7 if it gets started on time.
[42:18] Well that's good. I'll be dead.
[42:20] Yeah. No, I hope not, I hope not. I need your vote.
[42:26] If I may have one more question, please. Has has there been any attempt to put the 11 cities and towns representatives that are not directly involved in the project to go verify what is happening in the schools in terms of the capital building itself, and.
[42:49] As far as doing a walk through with the school to.
[42:52] See. I think that might be valuable.
[42:56] There's been a couple.
[42:57] There's been a couple, but we can definitely set that up again.
[43:00] A couple with what type of people?
[43:02] Um, various select board members, some finance committee members. Um, some of the school committee members. I mean, the school committee doesn't really get a deep dive into the building either. Right. Um.
[43:16] Yeah. I think just some of the other elected officials.
[43:19] But we can certainly set that up. Council members, we can definitely set that, set that up. If, if you're interested in seeing what actually is. Um.
[43:27] Interesting.
[43:27] Yes, we can definitely set that up. I can reach out to anybody if anybody else wants to partake in that.
[43:34] Yeah. I mean, I think they would like to do.
[43:37] We would welcome it honestly.
[43:39] Well, if I can come back and make a report, if it's me or anyone else can come back, subject to obviously, the chairman. Yeah. Come back and make a full report to support what's going on. Yeah, I think that's the best way to do it because last time all we saw were pictures.
[43:56] Yeah, yeah, we can definitely set that up. Yeah. I think it'd be a good thing even if everybody wanted to come.
[44:02] Okay, well, good luck in negotiating. Maybe you can.
[44:06] So we did throw out some of the suggestions that you and I had talked about. And that wasn't really enough.
[44:12] Really.
[44:13] It's been a little frustrating.
[44:15] Well, it seems to me that if you have.
[44:20] The towns. Each town is going to benefit from the 50/50 arrangement, except one, which I'm assuming is the city.
[44:28] Yep.
[44:30] Um, they really should vote for that.
[44:36] Yes. I can't speak for them, but. Yes.
[44:39] Yeah. No no no. I know. I know. I'm just. I'm just saying that. Okay. Uh.
[44:43] Really quick. What was the 11th community that didn't want to join or didn't vote?
[44:48] Uh. Hey. Um. Haverhill.
[44:50] Haverhill.
[44:51] Uh, per pupil. Yeah, the per pupil. That was Haverhill.
[44:54] Yeah, that was Haverhill.
[44:54] And then if I look at this, we have, what is it, $1.2 million we spend on the budget for, uh, for Whittier.
[45:02] Yeah, yeah.
[45:04] Yeah. And that translates to about, what, 18.5 per pupil. So if we were to go to per pupil, would that be favorable or unfavorable to the town.
[45:13] Favorable. Favorable.
[45:13] Favorable by about ballpark.
[45:17] Couple hundred thousand.
[45:19] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
[45:21] Those are my only questions.
[45:21] Thanks.
[45:22] Yeah.
[45:22] And I think that 50/50 formula. I think we would have been on the. No, we would be paying 30 million at the current. And if we went 5050, we'd be paying like 15 million. Like it's it's quite a bit of savings going to that formula to start.
[45:38] Thank you.
[45:38] Keep chipping away.
[45:39] I mean, if we hit the interest rate climate well, that will have a significant impact too.
[45:44] But good luck.
[45:45] Okay.
[45:46] Thank you. Thank you.
[45:47] Yeah. Thank you.
[45:47] Thank you. If you guys want to reach out to me and set something.
[45:50] Up for October.
[45:51] 22nd.
[45:52] 22nd.
[45:53] Yeah, yeah, I if Doug allows. Yeah, I would one of us would like to do it.
[45:59] Yeah. Please reach out and we'll we'll set that up for sure. Okay.
[46:02] All right. Thank you.
[46:03] Yes.
[46:03] Thank you.
[46:04] Yep.
[46:07] Have a good evening.
[46:07] You too. Thank you too.
[46:08] Okay.
[46:10] That's my baby.
[46:13] Moving on.
[46:16] Mr. chairman, do you want to take some things out of order just because we have some folks here? Yes, I do. You have votes by the board, and then we have some department heads here as well.
[46:28] All right.
[46:32] Why don't we start with Chief McKay.
[46:38] As I saw him walk in the door.
[46:44] Yeah.
[46:54] Good evening. See everyone again.
[47:02] Hello? S5:
[47:03] Uh, sure. So let me. Yeah. I think it would be good to explain how this whole thing started. Um, so I'm not sure exactly how long ago it was anymore, but some of the folks in Raleigh had reached out to. I'm sorry, Raleigh Rowland had reached out to some of the folks in our department, the Georgetown Fire Department. Um, looking to see if there was a possibility that the town of. Would the town of Georgetown be interested in a joint arrangement in running both fire departments? Um, so I had met with some of the firefighters in Georgetown because I didn't want to have that conversation with Matt if they weren't going to support it as well. Um, because of the relationship between the two departments, uh, and because there is such an interwoven, um, response between the two. They are our first and foremost mutual aid partner. Um, and we've actually had to, on a number of occasions have served as incident commanders for various responses in Groveland and the ambulance and so forth. Um, it made sense to continue that discussion. Um, so I had spoke spoken with chief McKay. He had said I'd be, I'd certainly be interested in it. And there are a number of reasons why and we can get into that later. Um, because obviously it was a much longer conversation than what I'm, what I'm stating. Um, so I then set up a meeting with my counterpart in Groveland, um, and the deputy chief, the four of us met and there seemed to be, I was surprised. They were very welcoming of our desire to support, um.
[49:09] The Groveland Fire Department in this, in this arrangement. Um, so what we, what my request was leaving that meeting was that we get a draft of a short term, uh, inter-municipal agreement in which chief McKay would would serve as the essentially interim chief in Groveland in conjunction with his duties in Georgetown. Um, for I for I think it was a 90 day period is what I with the ability to extend it 90 days. Uh, that will give us an opportunity to, I think, evaluate one, whether the relationship is good.
[50:03] Not the personal relationship, but whether the co-management relationship is good, but also evaluate how we can improve response and collaboration between both departments, S3:
[50:44] If I can also add, I just came from the Groveland Select board meeting. Uh, they voted in favor of this agreement 4 to 1. Uh, in attendance were over 12 Groveland firefighters in support of this as well.
[51:03] Uh, our firefighters are in support of this S5:
[53:04] It.
[53:04] Stops is about.
[53:06] The mutual aid agreement stays in place. Everything else stays in place. Nothing changes on the Groveland response model. Nothing changes on the Georgetown Response model. Everything stays consistent. If we were to do this in a longer term, I do envision ways of finding more efficiencies, right? So, you know, I'll take the risk and put them out there. What are those types of things. Fire prevention right. Fire prevention is a very serious thing. There's a lot of codes constantly changing. Uh, with the construction techniques, everything that's out there. We have dedicated fire prevention officers. Do both communities need to have one? I'm not convinced of that. Right. Ladder trucks. Right. Does every community need to have a ladder truck? Three engines and a ladder truck. No, I am 100% convinced on that. Um, these are shared resources. And ultimately what it comes down to is we've been investing a lot over the years, and rightfully so, because we had a lot of good call firefighters and there was a lot of, quite frankly, cheap labor. Right. You've heard me talk about it. I'll continue to talk about it. Is that the call firefighting nationally is on a decline, not a regional problem, a national problem. And if there was a way to fix that, I can tell you I probably wouldn't be sitting here. I'd probably be making a lot of money consulting all over the country. But it hasn't been fixed and it probably won't be fixed. And that's got to do with various dynamics that go into it. So this is our part in trying to figure out how do we start to stabilize? How do we get more efficient? How do we spend money in a more efficient manner while being able to recognize that we need to grow on another side of things? And that's the labor side. So shifting the resources from one side of the pendulum to another, that's how I envision this. That's how I think both departments envision this. And I would hope that's what both communities would support if we were to go long term. Right? As Orlando mentioned right now, this is a 90 to 180 day type agreement where, quite frankly, Groveland can test it out and see if it's for them. We can test it out and see if it's for us. And then most importantly for me, if I can test it out and see if I can actually do it right, I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't optimistic and think I could, but I don't know, getting into it. Right. So, um, those are the dynamics. That's, that's what I got for you.
[55:37] Well, in the spirit of mutual aid, right? Yep. I don't see where that would be. Well, it'll be more, uh.
[55:51] Responsibility for you, but it's not like rolling is a long way away, either. What's it? Maybe four miles over test station. Five miles.
[56:01] Five miles, maybe tops. Ten minutes. Lights and sirens less.
[56:05] Right, right. So, um, I think I had talked to somewhat about this before, so I don't really have any.
[56:21] My questions were answered, but anybody on the board want to open up? S2:
[56:22] Couple. Um, just to confirm. So this is this is a short term process right now.
[56:27] Right now, the the, the inter municipal agreement would be for 90 days option to extend based on both communities.
[56:34] Okay. Um, and then I guess the only concern I have, and it's just out of ignorance that I don't know what all the responsibilities are on a day to day basis, but let's say you have ten units of responsibility in Georgetown. Um, now I know it's.
[56:49] It goes to 18.
[56:51] It goes to 18.
[56:52] It's not exactly double, but it's a substantial.
[56:56] So that so so so that's my concern.
[56:59] Sure. That's my concern too. I bet it is. I bet it is. Absolutely. If you're the top.
[57:03] Dog there that that's really important.
[57:06] Yeah. And these are all discussions that we've been having amongst both departments, um among, amongst both communities. Um, again, I, I wouldn't be stepping into this if I didn't think that I could handle that responsibility. Right. So I think what I was very clear with them tonight on is that I'm not responding to every call over there. Right. Just as much as I wouldn't respond to every call here. Right. We have firefighters that are very, very good at what they do and paid to do, and they can handle the majority of the calls. Right? I listen, and I'll have to listen to them. Right. Much to my wife's dismay in the middle of the night.
[57:44] Is she ready?
[57:44] Yeah. Uh, but yes, it's it's going to be double the payroll. Double the the vendor warrants TTAS double select boards, right? That many things are double. Um, but I do envision other areas where I need to be a better leader and delegate to. There's responsibilities that I need to delegate. Yeah. Well.
[58:10] Thanks.
[58:11] Thank you. I'm sorry. Will you still.
[58:12] No, no, no, I just.
[58:13] That's the one thing that that I picked up on and we had talked about was that here in Georgetown, you have a strong command structure in place where, uh, Groveland may not have that same strength, which would then be able to, uh, free you up somewhat.
[58:34] Yeah. So I, I don't want to say that I.
[58:36] Don't want to use the term free up, but.
[58:38] No, I understand. So I would just say it's more about the resources that Georgetown has, right? They have a very strong command staff over there, but unfortunately their command staff is all call. Right. So there's nobody there during the daytime hours. And that's why they're in this predicament. Right. Their their current deputy chief that was handling these responsibilities. Just quite frankly, it's too much with another full time job for him, especially when you're not doing it on a day to day basis and you have only so much availability to be able to, to answer things. Right. I think a lot of this, and Orlando and I have discussed this right in the beginning. A lot of this is going to take my time over there to get up to speed on systems, processes and working knowledge over there. With that also comes the ability for me to still come back to Georgetown in the daytime hours and evening hours and manage my responsibilities over here, but I have a very, very good core staff that is here on a daily basis that I know can can handle Georgetown. And if they need extra help, I'm a five minute ride away. Right. Right. So I think that's where this this works, right.
[59:51] If it was more than that, if it was there were two much larger departments. It probably doesn't work without extra help. Right. I'm I can be pretty confident in saying that, but I believe that the similarities of our departments, the similarities of the structure, the way we operate, um, allow us to be able to do this. Really the biggest probably differences is going to be at the administration level through town hall.
[1:00:20] May I ask you a question?
[1:00:22] Certainly.
[1:00:24] I respect you. You've done a great job.
[1:00:26] Thank you.
[1:00:28] And I think you can do this job. The concern that I have is that when you're looking at it, you can say, well, I'm going to allocate 40% of my time and I don't know, but 40% of my time at Groveland and 60% at Georgetown or vice versa. But there will come a time where you're going to have to make a decision between this and that. I just want you to be prepared for that, because it isn't all math and percentages. You're going to end up in a position where you're going to have to make priorities.
[1:01:09] Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. AM I prepared for it? I don't I, I don't know how to answer it without being in that situation. Right. I'd like to think I am.
[1:01:19] Well I think you are too. But I at least wanted to put it in your mind. And again, for everyone that's watching, make sure that we're not losing what we require.
[1:01:30] Sure.
[1:01:30] To help someone else.
[1:01:32] And that's and I think that we've had many discussions on this. We had discussions over there. Right. Is this isn't about hours in a seat. Right. It's it's about being able to. And again, this is going to take work from me from a delegation standpoint, a leadership standpoint. But this is about being able to multitask and about getting certain things done and scheduling my day around where those priorities are going to lie. It's going to be a moving target every single day, right? I hate to say that. To your point, a 60/40, right. That's a lot of times what people want to see, right? Well, how much what's. It's a tale as old as time when it comes to operations. Right? What's what's the output going to be on the work that's going in. Right. So that's going to fluctuate quite consistently. Right. I'm going to have to spend those first probably 2 to 3 weeks with the majority of my time in growth.
[1:02:33] That will eventually start to swing back what that percentage is, I don't know. I don't know until I get into it. And that's why I think an interim 90 to 180 day agreement is best, right? What I don't want to do is get into this and just I'm not going to throw my hands up right and say, we can't do this. We got to get out of it. It'll be a conversation. I'm not going to leave the Groveland community and the Groveland Fire Department high and dry. They've been open enough and supportive enough to even entertain this. And because of that, I have that mutual respect that I'm not going to leave them high and dry. I'll help them find a full time chief, if that if that, if we feel that's the way it needs to go. I need to be honest with myself. I need to have honest feedback from Orlando that this is working in this board as well as my family at home. Right. I think those are all important inputs. And my own department, right. My own my own members here in Georgetown. I think this is a collective, uh, movement forward of something that we've been talking, quite frankly, I'm just sick of talking about it. Right. I'm just sick of talking about regional. Right. Um, this is this is the test. This is the way forward.
[1:03:45] And I guess the final part of my question is I've been led to believe, and I have no reason not to believe that you have someone. Is it a fire captain? Yeah. That that is more than qualified to handle most everything.
[1:04:01] 100%, 100%. I wouldn't be doing my job if we didn't have officers in place that could step in, um, at the moments that they need to step into.
[1:04:10] I don't know his name.
[1:04:12] Uh, Captain Moyer. Um, and then also Captain Bridges, who's on the call side, both of them together are very strong in their abilities. Captain Moyer is full time, so he knows a lot more of the day to day administrative stuff. But both of them are seasoned firefighters. Um, Captain Moyer can step right in and handle a lot of those administrative duties right off the bat. Captain bridges, there's no other person I would want to be on a fire scene with.
[1:04:33] So you've got a strong bench?
[1:04:35] Yeah, 100%.
[1:04:37] I think that was my that was my first concern. Um, but again, having worked with the bench, I knew and even on the administrative with, with Brian Coolidge and you know, I think for us, it's, it's a lot easier. You know, my concern was what was grovelands feel around this? And I did say, uh, to Rebecca.
[1:05:04] Because we had spoken about, I guess, some of the challenges in hiring interim. And this is where I think this agreement really works, even if it's not long term, is from an interim standpoint, somebody from the outside coming in, especially on an interim level, not a permanent level, isn't going to provide the same level of value as somebody who you respond with on a regular basis. Right. Um, your neighboring communities are especially, and those ones that you work with on a mutual aid level, on a regular basis, they understand your departments much better than anybody coming from the outside.
[1:05:44] Mhm.
[1:05:46] Well, chief, I've known you for a long time, and I must say, I do have confidence in you. And I'm being from your town. I'm very proud of you.
[1:05:56] Thank you. I appreciate the vote of confidence, and I also appreciate you keeping me honest with making sure that I'm ready for it as well.
[1:06:05] Well, just remember this agreement also encumbers Groveland in their process of searching for a replacement chief. Yeah. So that's part of it, too. It's not like, there you go. And there's mats there for 90 days and then he's not. Right. You know.
[1:06:26] Really quick. Um, you know, if this were to go long term, what do you see some of the benefits. Because what I see is maybe some enhanced training opportunities between departments, maybe, you know, pooled resources to kind of enhance the overall growth of both departments. Like I think we talk about an engine almost on a yearly basis.
[1:06:45] So what do you think some of those opportunities could be? S5:
[1:08:34] I just have one more. Sure. Um, I see that in this agreement, we have a top down review approach from the town administrators. I know it's not in here, and I'm not asking for it to be changed, but it might it might be a good idea to have the number twos in both departments to also do a bottom up review to make sure that we're getting the same data points.
[1:08:54] You can do that. Absolutely.
[1:08:57] 360.
[1:08:59] Yeah. Another term for it.
[1:09:01] Not not a question. Just Matt. You know, this isn't a question, but just um, I guess be prepared for if something were to happen to you after like 40 days, 55 days, you're right in the middle of it all. What your backup plan is. Yeah.
[1:09:17] Thank you.
[1:09:17] And I, and I want to second everything Ed said about you. That was right on the money.
[1:09:22] I appreciate that. No, George sounds lucky to have you.
[1:09:28] Okay. Anybody else? Do you have anything?
[1:09:31] Good. Thank you.
[1:09:32] Rob.
[1:09:35] Uh, Mike? S2:
[1:09:36] Okay. So.
[1:09:42] I would entertain a motion to accept the intermunicipal agreement by. In between the town of Georgetown, the town of Groveland, for shared services of the fire chief on an interim basis. Second.
[1:09:57] I'm sorry. I thought you were done.
[1:09:59] Well, I was going to say as presented.
[1:10:01] But what were you going to say? S2:
[1:10:01] Okay.
[1:10:02] Nobody made the motion.
[1:10:04] Well, yeah. We need somebody needs to move it.
[1:10:06] I'll make the motion.
[1:10:07] Okay.
[1:10:08] So moved. Second. Second. We're good. Perfect.
[1:10:12] All right. Mike, any further discussion? Hearing none.
[1:10:18] All in favor? S2:
[1:10:21] Thank you.
[1:10:22] I appreciate.
[1:10:23] It. Now you've done it, chief.
[1:10:26] Only for 90 days.
[1:10:27] Yeah.
[1:10:28] You'll be fine.
[1:10:29] I don't know. At some point let's let's let's just pick a time to come back and revisit it with everybody. Yep. I'm sure Groveland is going to want to do the same.
[1:10:37] So thank.
[1:10:37] You.
[1:10:38] Have a good night. Thank you.
[1:10:39] Okay. So why don't we do common vitro license? I think that one will be.
[1:10:46] It should be. I got everything I needed from the Board of Health. Um, which I can explain when they, when they come up.
[1:10:52] This is.
[1:10:53] Uh, the folks here.
[1:10:54] Yes.
[1:10:56] Do you want to come forward? Thank you.
[1:11:03] Oh, would you come forward? S9:
[1:11:09] Good evening. Good evening.
[1:11:13] Okay. If you would each make sure you speak into the microphone clearly and just say your name and your business before the board.
[1:11:22] My name is Nadine. Um, and we just open our in Georgetown cigar lounge, and we're just here for a common week license. And we've been through all the process. It's been over two years now. And finally we are on the verge to open soon. So.
[1:11:36] Okay. And your compatriot.
[1:11:38] Uh, my name is Ashraf and, uh, I work for Nadim as a manager GM in a few lounges and hopefully one of, the G Town lounge as well.
[1:11:49] Okay.
[1:11:50] So, gentlemen, I'm sorry, can you can you just spell your.
[1:11:53] Okay.
[1:11:55] I have a question for you. I'm just currently there's a there's a spot. Right. And then there's a building to the right where there's a smoke shop. Yeah.
[1:12:08] Is this lounge part of that smoke shop? S10:
[1:12:08] No no. Is it a different building?
[1:12:10] No, it's the same building, but it's next to us, you know. And the same plaza.
[1:12:15] I don't know.
[1:12:16] Is it where the dry cleaner was?
[1:12:18] I don't know, like.
[1:12:19] It wasn't the Eagle building. No, that's where.
[1:12:22] It's where the gym plastic or the gym classes was right between the nail salon and the smoke shop. It's all one building, but it's a separate unit.
[1:12:32] Yeah, yeah. So. All right, I'm in the right spot. Yes. Yeah.
[1:12:35] We've been in the process for last in 2023. We started the process, you know, and the smoke shop and everybody came after us. You know, it took us a long time to get all the licensing done and department to get approvals and everything, you know.
[1:12:46] Okay. Have you all had experience in running a.
[1:12:50] Yes, we do have. Yes, we do have a business. And every two. We have a cigar lounge over there too.
[1:12:57] There was a day.
[1:12:59] Yeah.
[1:13:00] A what?
[1:13:01] There was a day when I would enjoy a cigar.
[1:13:03] Oh.
[1:13:04] Those days are gone for me.
[1:13:07] Oh, that's too bad, Rob. No, I know every day is that day for me.
[1:13:10] I know.
[1:13:11] I know.
[1:13:11] So why don't you tell us a little bit about your idea and how this is going to play out, and how it would be beneficial for the community.
[1:13:19] Uh, the main reason for us to come to Georgetown was like, there is a, like a golf course here, you know, and there are many people, but a few of our friends, they want a place where they can just sit down with their friends, like mostly or all the people. It's over 45 plus, you know, and people who are retired, they have no place to hang out or something, you know, so they want a location where they can sit down and just enjoy the cigar, you know? So that was the whole idea about that.
[1:13:46] Okay. So when I was going through your your menu of things, I noticed that said to me, this doesn't compute. And it said, besides the cigar menu, it said hookah.
[1:14:00] Hookah is like some people they want to ask like they want to smoke tobacco is a hookah, that traditional thing. You have the tobacco in there and you put the coal and they can enjoy the hookah.
[1:14:09] Hookah elicits a different picture from me.
[1:14:12] No no no no no. So basically it's a just tobacco. And we serve with that same license we carry now it's good for both. And we have a hookah and a cigar lounge in Everett that's been operating for over seven years and a half with not even one single violation, or not even one single day of late payment to the state taxes. Because the taxes on this tobacco is between 40 to 70%. So basically, since we don't serve alcohol in most of our places. Uh, it's like a hangout place for most of the senior citizens in every town. Especially in the winter time. In the summertime, they might come and just buy a cigar and go enjoy it in a golf course or in a Marina. But in the winter time, this is their only hangout place. And, uh, basically, uh, 90% of my customers right now in Everett are 40 plus. So between 40 to 60, 65 years old. So basically, uh, even the atmosphere that we create is totally not would fit. Like, uh, you know, young 20s or 30s. So that's what we usually aim for.
[1:15:30] And, and even the board of Health, the bill, he came down to a location to see how does it operate and system and everything. Then he went further, you know.
[1:15:38] So then of course there will be another question will be on people's minds would be older and older mitigation.
[1:15:46] Yes. And we have that as well. And that's why we worked with the building inspector and the health department in every of our locations, especially even this one. We spent $45,000 on ventilation system, which we have in our HR system that brings fresh air and circulate the air 24 over seven or from open to close. And it's connected with the heating system, so it keeps the temperature the same in the room with bring in air a long the business hours through the whole time. Now I serve about 30 to 46 hours a day in average, and maybe 40 to 25, 25 to 40 hookers a day, which is flavored tobacco. And when you get in, you don't smell nothing. You don't get your clothes smelling the old fashion cigar lounge that maybe you're thinking of. They don't have good ventilation, but now the ventilation is mandatory and required by the city and the state. So the ventilation system that we added to the building is $45,000 plus. Plus we worked with the building inspectors. So this whole building that you are referring to did not had an alarm system. And the landlord unfortunately is cheap enough not to work on that. So we end up paying out of pocket, which we worked with the chief that just left the gentleman, and he requested us to have a fire panel through the whole building, which we got nothing to do with the whole building, but we end up doing the whole building for almost another $40,000 investment. And the landlord unfortunately did not mention with us on this. So we got it done the right way and invest on it a lot of money over the years just to get to this point.
[1:17:33] And for the last three years, like to go into step by step, because the state has a very high requirement for this ventilation system. They want to make sure everything is correct. So we pass the inspection. Everything is done from building, from fire, from plumbing, from electric. Everything is done. This is the last thing for the license.
[1:17:51] Okay. Thank you.
[1:17:53] May I ask a question?
[1:17:54] Sure.
[1:17:54] I'm sure this has been done. It's been approved. But what's the impact on parking? Because there's not much parking there.
[1:18:01] I know, but we just are requesting for 13 are sitting right now, you know, because we don't know how it's going to go here, you know. So I think that will be enough and not 13 people going to come at the same time sometime. Two people, three people, four people. So that.
[1:18:15] Much.
[1:18:15] That's it. That's it.
[1:18:16] Maybe a max of five.
[1:18:17] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Parking spot at the back side and the street parking, you know.
[1:18:22] Yeah. Okay. Because that was my concern.
[1:18:24] Yeah. And especially most of our business hours, we even that we open from 1030 to 11 a.m.. Most of our business starts after 5 p.m.. So between 5 to 10 p.m. so the traffic is usually less and the parking is usually plenty of parking.
[1:18:42] But obviously the spot and.
[1:18:43] No.
[1:18:43] Of course.
[1:18:44] Yes of.
[1:18:45] Course. Yeah. In Raleigh they closed at six. Yeah. So you'll probably get some overflow traffic there. Not that I've been there, but I'm just saying thank you. Thank you.
[1:18:55] Why? Georgetown?
[1:18:57] Okay. As I told you, like when we when I was researching, like, you know, many of our friends, they come to play golf here and they keep requesting us. You should open. There's one Raleigh, but it's not that good. It's the old school type. And Georgetown is the perfect town. The age limit is 45 plus, and there are so many retired people over there. They love cigar. You should try. So I've been searching, searching. And finally, when we get approval from here. Then I just started the project, you know.
[1:19:21] So we were thinking about Raleigh, but we saw that cigar lounge. There was old, uh, not vented. Right. To invest the money. We rather invest it on a new location. So we built this location basically from scratch. We from Florence. Tiles. Ceiling lighting. Um, you know, the fire department request fire panel. So basically we built it the way we wanted to see it. Uh, if you guys got a time, please stop by one day, hopefully after the opening. You will love the place. It's one of probably the nicest in the area. Like even look wise and everything.
[1:20:01] Is so far. Now.
[1:20:04] What was that.
[1:20:05] $260,000 we spent so far?
[1:20:07] Oh, wow.
[1:20:08] Yeah.
[1:20:09] So the state will love you.
[1:20:11] Yeah. The state, the state was very impressed. Like the way we built it, you know.
[1:20:16] Well thank you. I don't have any more questions you've already asked. Okay.
[1:20:18] So
[1:20:21] it's a very interesting business model because you can't smoke indoors anywhere. And, you know, if you finish your game of golf. You're not going in the bar? Yes. To enjoy a cigar or whatever. So this will be very interesting. Very, very interesting. Thank you. Thank you for investing in us.
[1:20:45] Thank you. Thank you so much.
[1:20:47] Yeah. I think that's what gets overlooked.
[1:20:49] Sure.
[1:20:50] We appreciate you coming to Georgetown.
[1:20:52] Thank you so much. They're very cooperative. All the departments have been working for years now.
[1:20:58] So I noticed with the fire departments okay. The building departments. Okay.
[1:21:05] How are we with the Board of Health? S3:
[1:21:05] So Board of Health.
[1:21:06] I spoke to Bill. Um, the only thing is, uh, with any of these types of businesses before they fully open, we do one final inspection just to make sure everything is finalized. But in terms of issuing the common Vick, it's not an issue, but there will be like one final pre-inspection.
[1:21:25] That's what we've been told this morning.
[1:21:27] So this morning that came in. Yeah. He came for a walk. He checked. Everything is fine. He said. Just put the sign in. And whenever you open, just. I will come one more time.
[1:21:35] The big issue is obviously the the air filtration system, which you guys are a new entity he.
[1:21:40] Invented this morning. Yeah.
[1:21:42] And you had the alarm panel, unfortunately, because it's smoking.
[1:21:45] Yeah, that was done.
[1:21:46] That's a fire code issue. Yeah. The chief doesn't have a lot of discretion there.
[1:21:51] So what about signage? Uh, one thing I know we're concerned about for the town is signage. And it doesn't get flamboyant, let's say.
[1:22:01] So that's exactly our last question to the building inspector Jim this morning. And, uh, as of the last discussion, he's going to email us aspects of what the town limitation on sign and lighting and all the requirements. And we'll send it to the signage company and they will follow the rules that would be required by, uh, city of, uh, Georgetown. Uh, But beside that, it should be 2 to 3 weeks before the sign can get ready. We're just waiting for his email. Uh, on regulation on that. So he's.
[1:22:37] Okay.
[1:22:41] I think all of that is what the site plan approval.
[1:22:43] Um, it's in it's in the zoning. Yeah.
[1:22:47] Okay. Any other discussion? None.
[1:22:52] Wish you guys well.
[1:22:54] Thank you so much.
[1:22:55] Thank you.
[1:22:55] Well, we have to. We have to vote on attracting.
[1:22:58] I never thought of that one. It's funny.
[1:23:01] I've been saying that for a while, though, that there is a kind of a void for those of us who are cigar smokers. It's kind of a void in lounges because, you know, you're either in Middleton or Raleigh or you're in, uh, Seabrook.
[1:23:20] Seabrook, right.
[1:23:21] And then Salem, New Hampshire.
[1:23:26] Okay.
[1:23:29] So this common victory license Orlando would expire June 30th of 27.
[1:23:35] December 31st, 2000.
[1:23:36] December 31st. This year. Okay. This year. Okay. So.
[1:23:45] So all the licenses are calendar year.
[1:23:48] Oh, okay.
[1:23:49] So we'll probably schedule a meeting in.
[1:23:54] Late November, uh, to start approving them with the understanding that they'll have until December 31st to get compliant, if not, which probably won't be an issue for you guys because.
[1:24:04] You're.
[1:24:05] New, but some of the older businesses may have some issues when we do our annual inspections that they'll have to follow up on.
[1:24:12] Okay, so then I'll accept the motion to approve the Common Victoria license for G Town Lounge, LLC located at seven West Main Street, unit three. There it is to expire 123126. So moved.
[1:24:34] Second.
[1:24:38] What if I wasn't done?
[1:24:39] I apologize.
[1:24:40] Pending pending approval by the building department on signage.
[1:24:51] So moved. Second.
[1:24:52] Okay. Okay, we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Hearing none.
[1:24:59] All in favor? S2:
[1:25:00] I. 5 to 0. Thank you, sir, and good luck so much.
[1:25:03] Thank you so much.
[1:25:04] Just one more question about the hours. Is it mentioned on the comment or usually the question?
[1:25:15] I think they match pretty close to the restaurant.
[1:25:17] Yes.
[1:25:18] Yes, exactly.
[1:25:19] Yeah.
[1:25:21] I gotta find it.
[1:25:24] I know the weekends are like 11 to 11, something like that.
[1:25:30] Uh.
[1:25:33] I can't find it now.
[1:25:35] Well, because we don't address it in the in the common book, it would be in the whatever the entertainment license is.
[1:25:41] Okay. Okay.
[1:25:44] Thank you.
[1:25:44] Because this is just really, at the end of the day, it's really for just serving food.
[1:25:48] Okay.
[1:25:48] But I know I saw the hours.
[1:25:50] So it's it's it's on the actual.
[1:25:52] There it is. Monday to Thursday, 11 to 10, 11 a.m. to ten.
[1:25:57] I think we can extend.
[1:25:58] Friday, Saturday and Sunday 11 to 11. Yeah. I think that pretty much.
[1:26:02] Sure.
[1:26:03] So the restaurant next door to us, the sports bar, I think at 11:00 or.
[1:26:11] They, they close earlier than that.
[1:26:12] They close earlier.
[1:26:13] But.
[1:26:14] But they, but they, they have the legal ability to stay open later if they like.
[1:26:18] Okay. Okay.
[1:26:19] Thank you sir.
[1:26:19] Thank you.
[1:26:20] Okay. Thank you.
[1:26:21] Thank you. Gentlemen. Thank you.
[1:26:27] Thank you.
[1:26:34] Okay.
[1:26:38] Next.
[1:26:46] There's no people here for that. So we would go to. Well, it says Heather road.
[1:26:55] But are we talking about Heather Road or Pentucket Ave? S3:
[1:26:58] Yes.
[1:27:01] Heather road here.
[1:27:04] Heather road. You know, the water department is you go up there and hang a right on.
[1:27:09] I don't.
[1:27:09] Think it's.
[1:27:10] I don't know.
[1:27:10] Heather Row is. That's the.
[1:27:12] And then it goes down.
[1:27:13] This is.
[1:27:13] The borders rock pond.
[1:27:15] And.
[1:27:15] Yeah yeah yeah.
[1:27:16] Yeah.
[1:27:17] Um.
[1:27:20] It doesn't look like it's on the agenda. So.
[1:27:24] Well, I mean, the documents that we have, the documents we have Heather road, but we also have documents in here for Pentucket. Pentucket.
[1:27:37] Which was.
[1:27:41] Pentucket. Where's your Pentucket.
[1:27:44] I had in my folder was under ongoing business.
[1:27:49] Yeah, but it's actually not on the agenda.
[1:27:53] For BBC way.
[1:27:56] Business.
[1:27:57] Oh it is here.
[1:27:58] Well they mentioned it in as mentioned in regard to access road and Pentucket Ave. So it's kind of merged with Heather.
[1:28:08] Oh is that.
[1:28:09] If you look at if you look at under new business.
[1:28:16] There's a letter from, uh.
[1:28:18] Uh.
[1:28:19] Frank O'Connor.
[1:28:20] Yeah.
[1:28:21] And they talk about, as I mentioned, with regard to Access Road and Pentucket Avenue, there's a specific process for a municipality, and it goes through the whole layout. And then there's just supporting documentation regarding Pentucket Avenue.
[1:28:45] So should we take that up or move that to October?
[1:28:51] Um.
[1:28:51] I wouldn't take any votes on it. Um, if it's in conjunction with, with the Heather road discussion.
[1:28:59] Um yeah it is. I know Mr. Brown on Pawtucket Avenue is here and he'll probably like to address us.
[1:29:07] Um, I don't see a problem with that.
[1:29:09] Okay.
[1:29:12] Okay. Why don't you bring us up to date?
[1:29:14] Um.
[1:29:16] Do you have that letter?
[1:29:17] I do.
[1:29:20] Um.
[1:29:24] So I know we, we have received a request from, I believe it's Mr. Oswald on Heather road to look into whether we would accept that as a public way.
[1:29:42] Um my S3:
[1:30:39] Okay. So then why don't I.
[1:30:44] Yeah, I mean, I think the recommendation is the road is not sufficient in terms of its width and condition to be made a public way.
[1:30:56] You're talking of a pentucket.
[1:30:58] Yes. In terms of the, uh right.
[1:31:03] What has been communicated to the board? S1:
[1:31:06] So I think I see Peter, Peter, could you come up and talk to us for a second?
[1:31:17] The the memo that Frank gave you guys, um, regarding any private way or should I say any gravel roadway? Um, because I think if you, I don't know where the money would come from to get these roads to, you know what the planning board would say to their specs. So right now, I think their specs are 26 foot wide roadway. Um, it would be a lot of land taking and it, um, I from my understanding is the towns don't pay for the roads to get to an acceptable state.
[1:31:51] So I mean, that's what the documentation that Frank sent us would indicate. Yep. Although they did mention the possibility of a betterment process with the town.
[1:32:03] Each year we, you know, grade the, the dirt roads in town, um, you know, wait till spring and then we come in with a grater and a roller and grade every dirt road in town, because we can spend up to $500 per road. So, you know, Hampshire Lane, Pine Grove Ave, Pentucket Ave, Heather Road and Mohawk Circle. So.
[1:32:24] So with the, with the, with the Status of streets document.
[1:32:31] How is the road determined private versus.
[1:32:35] I would say.
[1:32:35] It's accepted but open for public use.
[1:32:39] Um, I would say it's because private means that the landowner owns to the center of the road. Like we've had an issue on Heather road that the person down at the end, um, he put fences out right next to the road. We have no place to put snow, so we don't plow the road now because of that reason. Um, we used to have a great place to put snow. I didn't think it was a problem, but it turned out that it was a problem. But it's their land. So, you know, I mean, I worked in Boxford before. Here. We didn't plow private ways, you know. Here it was. That's how it was done before I got here. So.
[1:33:14] Okay, so now, on an unaccepted road.
[1:33:18] An accepted road like that, for instance. There's two unaccepted roads right now. Martel way that could be accepted, but it's not. Or should I say three now the access road. Um, a portion of it is accepted, but the new addition that they did in early 2000 is not accepted. And that's what we're working on now. And the other road is um Martel access and.
[1:33:45] Uh long Hill or long view way is not accepted. So he has a road that's been completed for, you know, I think I talked to Harry, uh, 19 if not 20 years ago about trying to get this road accepted because it was completed. The person that did the subdivision has passed away. There is probably bonded money that's available that you could do anything you needed to do. It's going to get to the point that when the town does accept it, we're going to have to pave it right away because it's, you know, it's getting into that condition. So.
[1:34:17] Right. So how does it when the legend for unaccepted says unaccepted but open to the public?
[1:34:25] Um, like, like I said, you know, there's only three roads in town that are unaccepted. You know, so, you know, we need to get these roads accepted because it's more chapter 90 money. Um, when I started 19 plus years ago, there were seven roads that were accepted by the town, but the paperwork didn't get sent in to the state to get accepted. So it's on that document. So we get the more chapter 90 money. So right now there's, you know, if we're going to accept Pentucket Ave, we should probably accept Martel way and long view way before we end the access road before we do.
[1:35:02] That, because it keeps coming up over the years.
[1:35:05] Uh, which.
[1:35:06] Well, it doesn't, it could be from Mohawk, it could be from Pentucket. It could be for Martel.
[1:35:10] And we. I don't have the money in my account to get these roads up to par. There'd be a lot of land taken. They, they would not have much land if you made that a 50 foot right of way, a 26 foot road, you know, planning board specs.
[1:35:22] So uh.
[1:35:23] Mark so Martel way. No, not Martel way.
[1:35:29] Maureen Lane is not accepted either.
[1:35:31] Maureen Lane probably will be because they had to finish that road in order to get the a ANR approved um access road. We are we actually might I think we got an email today. We might need a drainage easement from MassDOT.
[1:35:47] I find it very hard to believe that there was not a drainage easement done when they built that road originally because of what we're going through with West Main Street, the rail trail, for all these easements that we have to have done before we even start roadwork. So, I mean, it should be very simple from the state if that's the case.
[1:36:06] Yeah, I would think so. Um the other reasons would probably be easy. Um Mohawk circle is not. Is that built to the width.
[1:36:13] No it is a like it's almost like there were camps up there and they put a dirt road in and it's, it's rough. One, one side going up the hill is steep. Um, not in good shape.
[1:36:31] Okay. All right. Uh, I'd like to invite Mr. Brown.
[1:36:38] Did you want to say something? S8:
[1:36:43] 19 years, Peter.
[1:36:45] 19 or 20.
[1:36:46] God damn. It went fast. Good.
[1:36:50] How are you? S8:
[1:36:50] So, name and address?
[1:36:52] Yeah. Uh, Paul Brown, 15 Pawtucket Ave.
[1:36:56] And.
[1:36:57] And so. Yeah. So I'm here today just because as a resident on Pawtucket Ave, uh, I just we've seen I've been here for six years. And since I've been here, it's, uh, the traffic's been crazy going up and down Pawtucket Ave. It's a small road. It's very narrow. The traffic, uh, maybe, you know, back in the day when there wasn't a lot of activities at the park, um, you know, there wasn't a lot of traffic going up and down Pawtucket Ave, so it was probably okay. Um, but now we have Pawtucket pop up there. Um, so that's been advertised at the end of Pawtucket Ave, which is a private road. And so that's just welcoming more traffic coming down that road. Um, not just for residents, but people just walking up and down the road, kids moving up and down the road. Um, you guys, I mean, Peter already put in two speed bumps and people are flying over those speed bumps. Like they can't even see those speed bumps.
[1:37:54] Just to correct you for a minute. Yeah. Pentucket Avenue is an unaccepted road, not a private road.
[1:38:01] Well, it's. So when we bought our property, it was labeled as a private road. And I think even on the town up until today, when I heard about that, this is the first time I've heard it was unaccepted.
[1:38:13] Um.
[1:38:14] Orlando, did you make a copy of those documents? Yeah. That you could give to. Mr.. Maybe a couple of them so he could give to his neighbors.
[1:38:24] Do you know your property line for the the side of your property toward Pentucket Ave?
[1:38:30] Uh, on the road part the road side, like where it goes up to, I think right when my, uh, split rail fence is.
[1:38:43] Right. Everybody on that road has a well.
[1:38:45] So I try to ask it in a group chat that I have with all my, my neighbors and everything, but, uh, I didn't get a response back, so I thought it was me and, uh, Allie and Justin. We have Wells. Uh, and then you have the new people that just moved in on, um, leeway. Uh, right. That's facing the park. So they, I think they have a well.
[1:39:11] I think they have Watertown water.
[1:39:13] Oh, do they have town water? So I know we don't. I think Justin and Allie doesn't have town, um, town water. I don't really know about the rest of the residents moving towards Main Street. I'm not really sure.
[1:39:26] All right.
[1:39:27] Well, I do know that there is an increased traffic there. And what makes it interesting is that Milton Way is private. Yeah, private leeway is private.
[1:39:41] And I think I think leeway is actually public.
[1:39:46] Well, I don't know. There's some Milton on that.
[1:39:48] Milton way is private. And Pawtucket Ave I thought was private up until just now.
[1:39:54] It says here that Milton is unaccepted. Yeah.
[1:39:59] So that's unaccepted to unaccepted.
[1:40:01] But it has a right of a right of use or right of way for the town.
[1:40:04] I think that's for the, um, you know, when they donated the land to make American Legion Beach.
[1:40:12] So it could be that. And also when they had the ice house down there, that was what Pentucket. I was reading the deed and Pentucket ave they had like a rail spur.
[1:40:21] I mean, I'm just saying like as a resident. Yeah. On the street. What happened like 1935 and 2026 is completely different. You know, there wasn't a lot of traffic. There wasn't a lot of sports. Um, you know, we got the summer concert series we do during the summer and I'm part of that summer concert series. Uh, so I contribute to some of the traffic as well. Uh, but at the end of the day, you have two public roads. I mean, I'm sorry, you have two private roads leading into a town park. So that's a concern, I think. And that's something for the city of the town of Georgetown to take over these roads. If we're allowing the public to use them for access to the park.
[1:41:05] And so for me, it's a safety issue. My neighbors have complaints. Um, you know, with the little kids, you know, these cars are flying up and down the road. Um, you know, like I said, you know, at the end of the road, you know, some of the kids are wiping out, you know, because of the gravel that's being laid down and everything. Um, so I guess, you know, my, my biggest concern is safety. Safety is number one. Um, and then, you know, a secondary thing is just like all the dust from all the cars getting over my house, cars, everything. It's just, it's a nuisance. Mhm. Uh, so that's a secondary for at least me, but obviously public safety and safety of the, uh.
[1:41:43] Well, it's an interesting it's an interesting situation because of the access into a public space. And, uh, I mean, it's always been as far as well since 1920 something, it's been that way. But I think that according to the documents that we have, and I think you'll see with the ones that Orlando just provided you that, uh, they're pretty, uh, uh, thorough. Not saying that anything like this is impossible. It's just a matter of finding a way to be able to do it.
[1:42:18] Yeah. I mean.
[1:42:19] Because if you got to make, would you say, Peter, a 50 foot roadway.
[1:42:22] You've seen.
[1:42:23] 50 foot right away.
[1:42:24] 26 foot roadway. I mean, that'd be a lot of, um, you know, uh, taking of land.
[1:42:32] How wide would you say the roadway is now 12ft?
[1:42:36] 10 to 12. It's a.
[1:42:38] Lot. Peter. Why would it be a taking of land if it's a 50 foot right of way already?
[1:42:43] I don't think it's.
[1:42:44] Not right now.
[1:42:46] Uh.
[1:42:47] So I think they own like I know.
[1:42:49] Okay.
[1:42:49] The the house you're talking to on on leeway. The new house facing the pond.
[1:42:53] I got.
[1:42:54] You. There are, um, corner markers and I was looking at a map today in the corner marker is from there to the fence behind the backstop, where the where you have the constant series. That fence, that's what the town owns. That 50 foot right of way. The rest of the road it narrows right down. So and you know, it's going to be tough this year. Um, his neighbor across the street put a fence in, I would say two feet off the road. And it's a plastic fence and it would take six inches of snow that I plow up against it to take the fence down. You know, so I don't have any place to put snow there on that side. And it's not fair to him that I come down the road and plow all the snow toward his property. You know? So.
[1:43:37] Okay.
[1:43:40] Okay. I think this is something that we need to further investigate on all sides.
[1:43:50] Any members of the board have anything to say? S8:
[1:43:51] Well.
[1:43:52] I'm just curious. It seems a real hardship that you're suffering because of the access to a public area. And even though our requirements are so stringent. I would love for us to find a back door way to to help you with, um, those challenges.
[1:44:18] No. The one thing that I have a question because I was, I was doing some research today. Um, if we don't have you guys take over the road, I think there's a mass general law that says that you can probably because it has town access or town park access, you might be able to use funding to, um, to help with the road improvement, uh, or paving the road. And I'll just give you the, the mass general law. It's, um. It's a chapter 45, section four, and it just says it's roads connecting to a public park. And I would just probably maybe dive into that a little bit if you could. Um, I'm not really sure if it's going to help my situation, but briefly looking at it, it looked like, um, it might have something that the town could probably look at to maybe utilize some funds to help with that road situation.
[1:45:15] Well, thanks for that.
[1:45:16] Yeah. Good question. Is that something the CPC could do under that?
[1:45:20] I have no idea.
[1:45:22] We'd have to really dig into that one.
[1:45:23] Yeah. Because.
[1:45:24] Because the road.
[1:45:25] It's got to do with the park though.
[1:45:28] Yeah. I mean, we would have to reach out to. I mean, my thought is to reach out to council anyway on 45 section four. So I could tell you I know we can't use chapter 90 money for it, but that doesn't mean we couldn't use other sources of funding.
[1:45:42] Well, I can ask.
[1:45:43] Chapter 90 is specifically regulated to public wages.
[1:45:46] We have a, um. I'm sorry.
[1:45:48] No.
[1:45:48] I'm done. I was going to say we have, um, some resources we can ask that question to. It's a good question.
[1:45:54] Another question, if I may.
[1:45:56] Go right ahead.
[1:45:57] Peter.
[1:45:59] How are you? S8:
[1:45:59] How are you?
[1:46:00] Good. Um, is there room for the 50 foot right of way?
[1:46:08] It is tight. You know, like his neighbor is probably.
[1:46:15] His house might be 20ft off the road. And your house is not far off the road.
[1:46:20] Well, the other thing, too, is I have a well, and my well is right there next to the road. So that could have a problem to having like, easing the road over into my yard.
[1:46:29] So the price of this project could go up.
[1:46:32] Oh, yeah. And you know, where do the funds come from?
[1:46:35] Yeah. Well, that's why I said maybe the CPC could chip in something, but if it's going to require major Improvements.
[1:46:43] CPC wise, I think you'd be scratching the surface.
[1:46:46] Yeah, that's what I mean.
[1:46:47] Yeah. I mean, I think if you're going to make an improvement, you're just paving the existing kind of gravel base and not widening the road and not making it a public way.
[1:47:00] Which just means that cars can go faster.
[1:47:03] Well, I mean, if I if you wanted my opinion about this, the speed bumps would work. But I think you need to spread them out further. I think one in front of one of my neighbor's house and then one down by my. Well, I think, and if you had this as a paved road with clear indication of a speed bump that's like highlighted, I think that would slow down the traffic tremendously on that road. Now, one other thing too is like, if you look at Mass general law, chapter 40, section six N, which I'm sorry, it's a mass general law. Chapter 40, section six N, it says repairs to roads. Now, this kind of coincides with the Georgetown Bylaw chapter 134, article four, about private roads open to public over six years. This could like benefit where you guys can utilize some of that money. And I think what Peter was saying was that, you know, you can't exceed, what, $500 a year on a private road. So that's in there and this this bylaw and everything. So I don't know if there's any way between the the mass general law and what you guys have for a bylaw to maybe somehow formulate like funding just to improve the road itself. Because if you're using recycled millings or recycled pavement and everything, how much is the cost there? And then on top of that, you know, like the degrade it every single year. That's, that's an ongoing cost. If you pave it one time. Yeah, it might be cost costly, but over a course of time it it might be beneficial. So like I said, I just dived into to this a little bit today before I came here and everything. So I just was hoping that maybe this could be beneficial to you guys.
[1:48:51] All information is can be beneficial. Either lead you someplace or you get a dead end.
[1:48:57] So say again.
[1:48:58] I said it either lead you someplace or you lead you to a dead end.
[1:49:02] Hopefully all this. Oh. I'm sorry.
[1:49:04] No, go ahead.
[1:49:05] Saying all of this. I hate to have Mr. Brown leave tonight without us saying, all right, this these are the steps we believe we can at least look at in order to to do something working with Peter or.
[1:49:20] Well, in your packet is a very comprehensive. It's ten pages from KP from 2020. And the other information in there that's very helpful.
[1:49:31] Have that.
[1:49:32] Yes.
[1:49:32] I.
[1:49:32] Do.
[1:49:33] And um, so there's that. And we can we refer it to the, uh, have the, the traffic traffic committee. Yeah.
[1:49:46] I don't see why not.
[1:49:49] I mean, we can get a ball rolling.
[1:49:50] I don't.
[1:49:51] Know. That's that's all I'm asking.
[1:49:52] What? That I'd have to look at what that committee is like.
[1:49:55] Well, right.
[1:49:55] It might not full jurisdiction. Right. Normally when it comes to public ways. That's why I suggested referring to the Planning Board first.
[1:50:01] Could we also look into these mass general laws too? Yeah. For Mr. Brown.
[1:50:06] And, you know, on the, uh, letter that Frank handed out, you know, it says on the, uh, underneath the bullets under Massachusetts law, city or town is strictly prohibited from spending taxpayer monies to make permanent improvements, pave, regrade or repair private roads that have not been formally accepted as public property.
[1:50:30] Right.
[1:50:31] So, I mean, you know, I don't think that I know for a fact I don't have the money to do this, and I just did some rough calculations just for Pentucket Ave. The 12 foot wide, you know, would be close to $14,000 just to pave it.
[1:50:46] Just to pave it.
[1:50:47] Yeah. And then you're going to get Heather road, Pine Grove Ave, Hampshire Lane. And then who's to say that, um, little Hill doesn't come and say, hey, we need our road repaved?
[1:50:59] Yeah. But I think the biggest difference between those is you don't, you don't mind is that they both both roads lead into a public um.
[1:51:09] Park conservation land on Littles Hill.
[1:51:11] Well Little Hill is a private road.
[1:51:14] So is this.
[1:51:15] These are pentucket and that is unaccepted. I want to know the difference.
[1:51:20] You know, I don't know what Frank's letter says, but we should definitely look into that to see if it's private or if it's accepted. I mean, not accepted.
[1:51:26] Yeah. The, the, the, uh, from the highway department status of streets. It gives a legend that says you unaccepted open to the public. A is accepting. P is private and not open to the public.
[1:51:41] I my my question about that is if it's unaccepted who unaccepted it, the town unaccepted it. And then on top of that, why did somebody make a decision to allow public access right to unaccepted road that residents live on.
[1:51:55] That.
[1:51:56] When you read the deed that's in there from 1923, it may give you a partial explanation of that.
[1:52:02] It was before because of the ice House.
[1:52:05] Yeah.
[1:52:06] And it was before that. You know how old your house. 18 something.
[1:52:09] 1890.
[1:52:10] So can I ask there's a lot of things happened that happened. Well, nobody can answer it because no one's alive now, Laura, you had. So, um.
[1:52:23] My suggestion when I first heard about this was to was to block off your road. So it's not.
[1:52:29] Me to.
[1:52:30] As as a public way. But I do understand that it's, um, it's a safety consideration for, you know, exiting the park in the event of whatever, whatever it reminds me of the back road coming out of Penbrook, which is never used, but it is there as like an escape route.
[1:52:53] Well, it will be used.
[1:52:53] Could we could we block off this road somehow? But it is only to be used as as a pedestrian way or like your driveway or as an emergency exit. I don't know if that's, um, if that's a thing I would do.
[1:53:15] And I, I had the same idea. I worked on the fire department here in Georgetown and in Beverly, and there's plenty of like utility roads in the city that's not, uh, up to public use, which they block off. and they just they have a code for the fire department, the police department to use. So if they needed to get in there for whatever reason, they could. So I had the same exact thought process because you have, again, Pawtucket pop up, they're brand new. They've been there for a little while now. And they're, they're basically advertising their business at the end of a unaccepted or private road and everything without the consent of any of the other residents there. Um, and that's because Park and Rec allowed them to do that. They, they went into a business agreement with them to do that, which is fine. They have the right to do that. But now you're utilizing a private road on a accepted road to produce more traffic than that road can probably handle. When you have cars basically playing chicken with each other. That's a problem. And I can tell you right now, my, my house, I have a steep decline to the road. So my yard is like hills down so people can't ride up on my my lawn. But for my other neighbor, uh, they've ruined his his flowers and things that are close to the edge of the road because people can't get out of the way of another vehicle because they don't know how to handle themselves. Driving down that road and having two cars, not compact cars, but big SUVs going down these roads is a problem. And it's ruined the property. It's ruining some of the property of the residents that live there.
[1:54:56] So it strikes me as absurd that we are we're we're, um, strictly guided by an ice house that no longer exists, a 100 year old, um, right of way for something that does not exist. And we're holding residents hostage.
[1:55:22] Hostage, not hostage. No one's holding anyone hostage.
[1:55:27] They can get in and out. You're right. They're not held hostage. But we are. We are holding them to a. We are 100 and they are being held to a 100 year old out, completely non-existent thing anymore.
[1:55:45] And it is somewhat out of our purview as well.
[1:55:48] True. But I just wish that we could.
[1:55:51] And that's why. That's why I asked the chairman if there's any way we can at least get a ball rolling, as the chairman said. So at least there may be a process that we can approach, and maybe it's not for a year or two years, but there's got to be something that can be done.
[1:56:08] So my question to you guys is that if it's a private road, unaccepted road, whatever you want to call it, can I, as a resident that live there with the consent of everybody else on that road, put a gate up and shut it down.
[1:56:27] With the park.
[1:56:27] We shouldn't be answering that. We don't.
[1:56:30] I mean, I can tell you this. I wouldn't plow it if that were the case.
[1:56:34] So basically, if I put a gate up, there's going to be no more town support with planning, I think.
[1:56:40] I think your insurance company would advise you against that.
[1:56:43] Well, yeah. Plus, I think there's a big question of access to the public park.
[1:56:47] Yeah.
[1:56:48] Well, there is.
[1:56:48] Another there's Milton way. So you got Milton Way, which based on the deeded, uh, rights, they have a right of way. They use Milton way.
[1:56:57] It's it's it's is that a, it's not a one way.
[1:56:59] That's not a one way.
[1:57:01] So is it I, I think a good step would be to try to get answers on these laws.
[1:57:05] Yeah. I mean, I think just looking at what what other avenues we might write and then we can, once we figure out what we can or can't do, I think then you figure out, okay, what resources. Right. Because we know we can't use chapter 90, but, you know, can we appropriate some other resources. And what limitations do we have as it relates to that? Because I hear dust control has got to be got to be an issue.
[1:57:29] Yeah. But, you know, I live on the corner of Pine Grove and, you know, in the summer that's dusty as well. That's a little bit of a stretch.
[1:57:39] That the dust.
[1:57:41] Yeah. And you got to imagine what it's like living on West Main Street with all the trash trucks and everything that go by. I wouldn't lead with that one.
[1:57:50] No, I'm not leading it. But if you come over during the mid-summer, you'll see both my cars and my house caked in dirt.
[1:57:57] And same thing is for our house. Yeah, except we get it from the front and the side.
[1:58:02] Yeah, that's a nuisance.
[1:58:03] That's all. The reason for all this is that I think that it has come up for years about unaccepted roads and private roads. And what do you do and what, what can they do, what they can't they do. And I think that we really need to take a look at it and put the issue to bed.
[1:58:22] That's the primary purpose, right?
[1:58:24] Yeah.
[1:58:25] And see if there is something that can be done and we can get funding for it.
[1:58:31] But at least that's the first thing that has to be done. That's concrete that we have to determine what those laws mean to us.
[1:58:38] Well, you see, this is what.
[1:58:39] We can find a back door.
[1:58:42] That to.
[1:58:44] Four houses. I don't know that the the.
[1:58:46] It's four houses on Pawtucket.
[1:58:48] Because it's like a multifamily on the.
[1:58:50] Yeah. That's facing.
[1:58:52] Main Street.
[1:58:52] So that's their address.
[1:58:54] Has the driveway cut off of Pawtucket across the street from it. It's like a four family or five family.
[1:58:59] Yeah. The one that's been.
[1:59:00] West Main Street addresses.
[1:59:02] Yeah, they have West Main Street. Yeah.
[1:59:03] So it's maybe what, four houses, four houses?
[1:59:06] Yeah.
[1:59:06] That would, uh, looking at the prospect of bearing the financial burden of constructing a roadway to specifications for the town to accept it.
[1:59:17] Well, so here's, here's my thing. As a resident, I don't know how much it's going to cost to bring a road up to standard to give over to a town. I don't think that's financially feasible for the residents on, like, if it's in the thousands and thousands of dollars, I think it makes no sense to just pony up all that money just so you can just turn it over.
[1:59:41] I don't know. That's why I have a hard time with that.
[1:59:44] There's an affordability issue, too.
[1:59:46] Well, no, I don't have 20 grand.
[1:59:47] Not like it's an investment.
[1:59:49] Right. That's what I'm saying. It's just money going out the window for you guys to benefit for the town. Yeah.
[1:59:53] I mean, well, that's I mean, because it's subdivision. So that generally what happens is the developer is doing this while they're building the houses to turn it over.
[2:00:02] Right. But that's certainly not the case here.
[2:00:04] No.
[2:00:05] Well, then I would, I would just take this and say we can keep it on our project.
[2:00:15] Yeah. Keep it rolling. Yeah, exactly.
[2:00:18] And, uh, and then try to find out how to go about it. And you and your neighbors can do the same from your end.
[2:00:27] Is there any timeline, Mr. Chairman, that we can give Mr. Brown that says maybe by end of October, of November, we will at least be able to update him?
[2:00:39] Well, I can tell you that what we have in our package is pretty comprehensive. And, uh, that's, that's we, that's where we are right now. We can look at the mass general laws that Mr. Brown has, you know, provided us and the, uh, the bylaw 1344. We can look at that. We can certainly talk to people.
[2:01:02] Well, what I'm asking, though, is to show Mr. Brown in good faith that we're we're still working on it. And if he comes back later on in the year, we can give him an update of where we are, what we can and what we cannot do.
[2:01:21] Well, I mean, I hesitate to put a timeline on it because those things tend to move.
[2:01:26] Yeah, I think before you get to that point, I think you still need to you've still got a request of Heather road in front of you, right? I think you want to make sure you get a report back on that before you deal with any other roads.
[2:01:42] I just want to make sure that this doesn't fall off into the abyss.
[2:01:46] Um.
[2:01:49] I mean, I can certainly answer. I can certainly follow up on some questions, but at the end of the day, the answer may be we can't do anything or we're going to have to deviate from a best management practice in order to do it.
[2:02:05] Right. But Mr. Brown deserves answers on whatever the timely basis is that is available to us. I again. I want to have him have some answers so that he can take whatever action he needs to do next.
[2:02:22] Well, the answers are right here in these probably 20 pages that are agreed. Okay.
[2:02:28] No. And again, I'm not saying we schedule it for the next meeting, but what I'm saying is I think that we have to at least keep this ball up in the air so we can give him at least some answers what we can do.
[2:02:43] I agree, but I hesitate to to put a hard and fast timeline on it. I accept that because things get shifted.
[2:02:50] I accept that, but I'll remember it.
[2:02:53] Well, I wish you would. I hope you do.
[2:02:54] You're in charge.
[2:02:55] Yeah.
[2:02:57] Okay. So. Well, thank you, Peter and Paul.
[2:03:02] Thank you.
[2:03:03] We'll try to move it forward as best we can.
[2:03:05] You presented yourself really well and what you presented yourself.
[2:03:09] Really? S12:
[2:03:10] It was pretty great.
[2:03:11] Thank you.
[2:03:13] Okay.
[2:03:13] Great. Now, I think regarding the.
[2:03:16] Thank.
[2:03:17] You, the agenda item that we probably need, should we move that forward for the Planning Board?
[2:03:26] And the goal would be for them to put a report together similar to this.
[2:03:30] Yeah.
[2:03:31] And then I think maybe you can revisit both of them at the same time.
[2:03:34] The.
[2:03:34] Whole.
[2:03:34] Plan. Okay.
[2:03:35] So because there will probably be some parallels between the two.
[2:03:38] Right. So we need to take a vote to move that to the planning board.
[2:03:43] Yeah. I would say just vote to forward the matter to the Planning Board. Heather.
[2:03:48] Heather road. Okay.
[2:03:49] Can I ask for a brief recess?
[2:03:51] Sure.
[2:03:52] Go ahead. Yes. Uh, motion for a brief recess.
[2:04:00] Made.
[2:04:00] Move. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Five minutes.
[2:11:34] How are you?
[2:11:37] Hey, we're back from a brief recess.
[2:11:40] I don't know.
[2:11:41] Uh, Orlando's downstairs right now, making some copies of, uh, of one of the agenda items that just came in today. Um, but I do want to go to the, uh, Selectmen's report. We have a report from Eastern Essex Veterans Service director. And this. What Steve Bond does is that once a quarter, he provides a quarterly report of his activities, and I sit on that as Georgetown's representative. So that's in your packet, but I will update you on. One thing is that we did get a a donation of $6,000 that that will go in the unrestricted donation fund, but we are going to institute a trial program for emergency transportation.
[2:12:38] For veterans to medical appointments. Now, when I say emergency, I mean, you had your appointment, you had your ride all set up, and all of a sudden the ride went away or something came up right away. And you didn't have that two weeks to schedule a ride with the VA. Something like that. So what we're going to do is use Uber and and trial it that way for that type of, uh, uh, transportation. It's not meant to have a fleet of vehicles and drivers or anything like that. It's just meant for, if somebody finds themselves in a situation where they can't go to the medical appointment because they lost their ride.
[2:13:22] I mean, because I've used alternative transportation, it's actually the name of the company. But you got to do that two weeks at least in advance, and they come to your house, pick you up, drive you there. You got to call them when your appointment is done. So hopefully you don't have a five minute appointment, but you call them and then you just wait till they get there and they drive you back to your door.
[2:13:43] Great.
[2:13:44] Huh? And then in this area, you can do Miva get a ride with them. Um, you can also, through the VA clinic in Haverhill. They have a shuttle that leaves there that goes to Bedford, you know, to Edith Nourse, VA hospital. Um, I don't know that they go to Jamaica Plain, but they go to Bedford and they give you that round trip there. So there's but there are some areas that are that you got to fill in to try to get the veterans to their, their doctor's appointments and all. So that that's the report for that.
[2:14:26] Thank you.
[2:14:27] Do you know how many people you served in Georgetown?
[2:14:30] Well, there's over 300 veterans in Georgetown. Well, veterans that we know about because the only way, you know, is that they've clicked, you know, checked the census off, saying they're a veteran. But yeah, we have like 300 some veterans in Georgetown.
[2:14:44] I was surprised you didn't know I was a veteran, to be honest.
[2:14:47] No, I didn't know. I probably did, but I long forgot, but.
[2:14:52] That's me in a nutshell.
[2:14:55] Mr. chair, I just want to add something, if I might, to that. To the report. Sure. Um, I was reading this many times and I read the, you know, in particular the Purple Heart Day recognition and who had made the ultimate sacrifice by shedding blood. And I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but but I don't care. Um, you know, I got to speak up on this one. Um, I suspect if the military and the people involved in the military could speak up, they, they would speak up, but they'd be put in jail if they did speak out, um, in this way. Um, but, uh, to see the leader of our country, uh, in, in, in full regalia, standing beside, uh, Patton and MacArthur is an absolute disgrace. Absolute disgrace. And, um. Yep, I they said it. And I have no regrets.
[2:15:50] Well, with respect, it's not about that person. It's about the individuals like you and me that were killed in action, defending.
[2:15:59] That's why I'm saying it.
[2:16:00] Well, I.
[2:16:01] That's why I'm saying it.
[2:16:02] I understand, but no one else says I don't care for the linkage.
[2:16:06] Well.
[2:16:06] Well, I disagree. I disagree, and that's a big problem.
[2:16:10] Okay. We can.
[2:16:10] Disagree.
[2:16:11] Not for me. It's not a big problem if it's for you. No.
[2:16:14] Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. We can we can disagree about this big problem, but it really doesn't doesn't link to the Eastern Essex Veterans Services.
[2:16:24] Well, that's my point.
[2:16:25] This was just a Purple Heart recognition day they.
[2:16:27] Had, and that's my point.
[2:16:29] They had Raleigh and Ipswich. It wasn't a national thing like we had. We had a Purple Heart day.
[2:16:34] This is about veterans. Veterans about.
[2:16:38] Purple Heart.
[2:16:39] Are you a veteran?
[2:16:40] No.
[2:16:40] Okay.
[2:16:41] No, that doesn't matter.
[2:16:43] In a way it does because you're purporting to speak for the veterans and you're not.
[2:16:48] I know the fact that I'm not a veteran doesn't mean I can't speak.
[2:16:51] About this stuff. And if it does, why or if it political.
[2:16:55] That's a.
[2:16:55] Problem. Why are your political views necessarily not political? That's not political. Political, Rob.
[2:17:03] You call it political. When I have a brother who I have been studying, you want to know why this came up for me when I have a brother?
[2:17:09] Does it have a place here? Bottom line.
[2:17:11] You just asked me a question.
[2:17:12] Does it answer? Does it have a. You ask me.
[2:17:15] A question I'm trying to answer.
[2:17:17] Point of order.
[2:17:18] A place I think it did. Gentlemen, gentlemen.
[2:17:21] The chair has asked for point of order.
[2:17:23] Please stop.
[2:17:24] This. This discussion does not fit the Eastern Veterans Services District director's report on what we're doing in the seven communities that we cover, and the. The compensation and purple hot days and all types of veteran activities. Whether there's veteran spots in a in a town hall parking lot or in a store. This is all within our seven communities and not for the national stage. Although I appreciate what you're saying, Mr. Hoover. It's just that that doesn't really fit with this report. But I, I respect your your opinion and I understand what you're saying.
[2:18:13] And I respect his opinion too. I just didn't think it had a place.
[2:18:17] Right.
[2:18:18] So and how many how many veterans did we help out this in Georgetown? I know we have 300 veterans, but do you know how many we might have helped out?
[2:18:28] Um, no, it's it's a it's a moving target. I don't know the exact number for that, but there are several. And things come up. Veterans die and there. Sure. And he goes through with the with the with the veteran spouse to see if they're entitled to any VA benefits. And he'll look up. He's found a couple of folks that would do medals. Sure. They didn't know about. They. They found another one that had a claim that he gave up on. And the VA never closed it. And the claim was from 1980 something. And the VA said, oh, and they owed that gentleman a lot of money. It was, you know, six figures.
[2:19:14] Yeah.
[2:19:15] They made up. That's the big.
[2:19:16] Thing. Right. So there's a lot of stuff that goes on there that that really is, uh, it's difficult to talk about sometimes, but most of it is on your benefits. And he's fully certified. We don't have to use the state systems anymore. That saved us, saved all the communities a ton of money. And he's fully certified as a, uh, through the, uh, well, he used Vietnam Veterans of America certification to be VA certified. You can do that through the DAV, too. But and we were we did mention that there was a fishing trip this year, and the winner, the one in August, the winner of the smallest and the winner of the largest fish, got to go on a. One of the boats in the Wicked Tuna from Hard Merch has a few boats, and they were able to. They had a dinner. They had some celebrities at the dinner and they brought them out to fish and have that camaraderie.
[2:20:20] That sounds.
[2:20:20] Like a.
[2:20:21] Good time.
[2:20:21] Yeah, yeah. And I think they're going to do it every year now. But but that's basically yeah.
[2:20:28] How can you not? Well thank you. Thanks for the update.
[2:20:31] Yeah. Well then what is it? Next Tuesday is military Day at the fair. And he'll have a table. Steve won't have a table right there as you come in from route one.
[2:20:42] I'm still trying to have my wife find my picture so I can be up.
[2:20:46] Well, find it because that program is closed, but find it for the veterans gallery at the Koa. Okay, so, Orlando, we decided that we would do the, uh, while you were getting this documentation, we figured we'd do something easy, like the veterans report.
[2:21:05] That sounded real.
[2:21:05] Easy. Yeah.
[2:21:07] So let's go on to ongoing business.
[2:21:10] Did you did you forward the Heather road to the Planning Board?
[2:21:13] Oh, no, we didn't do that yet. So we need a motion to forward the, uh, Heather road street acceptance to the planning board for their, uh, uh, uh, investigation and advice.
[2:21:31] So moved.
[2:21:32] Second motion, a second. Any discussion? Hearing? None.
[2:21:37] All in favor? S3:
[2:21:38] Aye. 5 to 0.
[2:21:42] Oh, wait. I did that in the wrong place.
[2:21:50] Okay. So now Ford Regency.
[2:21:54] Yes. So we we had a second appraisal done as as you recall, the first appraisal we had done came in at 465,000. We wanted something more in depth, especially based on the review, the internal review we got from some of the other departments. Um Howard dono, who is actually the appraiser who has handled some of the rail trails, um appraisals, um, they are certified, uh, to do the work. They have developed a value of 315,000, which is probably much more in line. I think there are some people who would tell you that even that is too high. But I don't quite.
[2:22:42] At the end of the day, the lot is still coming in as a buildable lot. And so that that does impact the value from an income approach. Um, so if the town were to keep the property, um at 315,000, we're probably still looking at potentially compensating the, uh, the previous owner who we have to give the net proceeds of about $100,000.
[2:23:14] I think we're into the property for about 220 or so, $230,000 in back taxes, fees legal here. Yeah. Once you add everything up. Um.
[2:23:29] So we have $100,000 to where would that come from?
[2:23:35] We would probably have to appropriate it at town meeting. Um, uh, Tom McInerney, who handles the tax title, accounts for the town. Um, he would communicate that to the court. And obviously, um, because we're a municipality, we can't do anything within 30 days. So they, you know, they would have to understand that in order to comply with the law, we would have to get an appropriation from town meeting first.
[2:24:01] Um, but in doing so, that doesn't limit your ability to sell the property later. And I think that's something the board should consider is maybe not selling it today, but maybe selling it later. We could try to sell it now. I don't know if the climate is ideal to do that.
[2:24:18] What would we use it for? Open space.
[2:24:23] Would we give it to open space or we just hold? S3:
[2:24:23] It open, sent it to Peter Burns because it abuts, it abuts an existing piece of open space. And it also provides a connectivity corridor from 133 over to Rock pond. So, um, it occurred to me that that might be something they would want to pick up, but I haven't heard back from him.
[2:24:46] So I think what Peter had communicated to me was if it wasn't a substantial amount of money, um, that he, he could see open space and rec recommending to keep.
[2:24:57] Does he consider a substantial.
[2:24:59] Well certainly the 465 number was not.
[2:25:04] So you've already talked to him.
[2:25:05] I have. I went to one last meeting.
[2:25:07] Okay. I sent it to him today.
[2:25:09] Um.
[2:25:12] I. So if we were to do that though, then we could probably use CPC funds for the 100,000. If the board wanted to retain it and sell it for developable purposes later. Um, you wouldn't use CPC funds, but you could also recoup the 100,000 and then some.
[2:25:34] It looks like a very difficult development situation.
[2:25:41] It does in a sense.
[2:25:43] It's very steep and wet.
[2:25:47] It is.
[2:25:48] And narrow.
[2:25:49] Um, and as I was have always been told, if you got the money anything's buildable. Yeah.
[2:25:58] That's true.
[2:25:59] Um again, I mean the site might be, you know, because the lot itself conforms. Um everything else is just, you know, just permitting really.
[2:26:11] Just.
[2:26:13] Um, and of course you're in a little bit more of a climate where if the lot is conforming and there's a denial, you better have really good grounds because the courts really don't like to see that. But I don't. I don't think there's harm in. And just holding on to it. And as conservation either. I mean, the town's into it for a lot in terms of the back taxes, but you may never recoup all that anyway. I mean, that's the problem with the way tax title is now. Yeah.
[2:26:49] Can we just hold on until we hear back from open space and see if they want it?
[2:26:55] You could. I mean, we've held on as long as.
[2:26:58] There's not a ticking. Ticking.
[2:27:01] There is.
[2:27:01] Well how much time is there left?
[2:27:04] It passed a long time ago.
[2:27:05] Oh. Negative time.
[2:27:08] So in a couple of weeks.
[2:27:10] Um, and we have a meeting October 5th. Yeah.
[2:27:17] But at some point we do have we we're well beyond the period where we would have already notified the Land Court other than Thomas communicated to them that we were moving the process along.
[2:27:29] So my question also is if we need CPC money to, um, to purchase it, that won't be here for eight months. And that's that.
[2:27:40] That is something that we would communicate to the court. Right now, we haven't, we need to tell them we're either keeping it or not.
[2:27:47] I see. Okay, great.
[2:27:49] Because there are notification requirements that we have to make.
[2:27:51] Okay. So that's still okay.
[2:27:54] Works well. We.
[2:28:00] Should we be taking a vote on this this evening?
[2:28:03] It would obviously be better if you did. But if as October 5th. What a week from now.
[2:28:09] Yeah.
[2:28:09] Yeah.
[2:28:11] I mean, if we wait till Monday, a week from today. I don't think that's. If we can come out of Monday with a commitment that would be ideal.
[2:28:20] Okay, well, that'll give everybody time to go through the appraisal. But think about it. I mean, I know which direction I'm thinking of, but yeah, make sure that's on the agenda for October 5th.
[2:28:34] All right.
[2:28:36] Can you talk to Peter about the 100 K instead of the 315 or or I'll email one of us. We need to let him know.
[2:28:48] I can reach out to.
[2:28:49] Him. Okay. Thank you.
[2:28:53] All right, now we can go to.
[2:28:58] Oh, I missed one. Health insurance analysis.
[2:29:02] Yes. So as I as I had stated in the last meeting, we had Maya working on a comparison using the group insurance commission, the GIC, which is the.
[2:29:17] Which is the state's, uh, basically the state's employee and a number of municipalities, um, Are also in the GIC as sort of the benchmark. And the reason why Maia wanted to use that as the benchmark was because that is the legal authority that the selectmen can push the health insurance to. Um.
[2:29:43] I think without really violating collective bargaining agreements or the rights of any of the public employee unions. Um, I'm trying to find my I just had it here.
[2:29:54] Sorry. Where is it in our.
[2:29:56] It's not it's a one page.
[2:29:59] I know I saw it, but it's not under new business in our folder.
[2:30:02] It wasn't it was right up front there.
[2:30:08] I've lost it.
[2:30:09] It's it's in there under new business.
[2:30:12] Yeah. It is.
[2:30:13] Yeah. It's just one page.
[2:30:14] I don't have it.
[2:30:18] Okay. It's somewhere else.
[2:30:22] So it should look like this.
[2:30:23] Yeah, I know, I looked at it earlier.
[2:30:30] Oh, here it is.
[2:30:36] It's in the middle of the fire chief.
[2:30:40] Well, good that you found it. So bring us through this, Orlando.
[2:30:46] What are we looking at? S15:
[2:30:48] Current options that we have, which are the blue tab. Um we have this is the plan. So the town offers a couple of plans, but this is what 85% of the employees are on. So this is comparison is based on the existing numbers today not next year's numbers because we don't know those. Um the current deductible of zero moving to a $500,000 deductible for individual family plan. Um, no, no changes to the, uh, to the medical services. Really? Um.
[2:31:31] No, not 500,500 slash 1000.
[2:31:36] Yes. Did I say.
[2:31:39] 500 slash.
[2:31:40] 1000.
[2:31:41] An alarming number.
[2:31:42] Between.
[2:31:43] Between the individual or family plan. Sorry, I gotta use some light because, um.
[2:31:48] And you said you had great eyesight.
[2:31:50] I, I generally do.
[2:31:53] Um, uh, PCP office visit. Our current copay is $10. That would go to 20. Um, a specialist office visit would go from 25 to 60. Um, emergency room, $100 copay waived if admitted. Um, that wouldn't change. That actually wouldn't change. Um, ambulatory care would go from 150 50 to 250 after the deductible. So even if you met the deductible, there'd still be a cost there. Um.
[2:32:26] Diagnostic X-rays, things like that. Covered in full. Um.
[2:32:35] I'm trying to just highlight the differences here. The short term physical occupational therapy would be go from $15 for 90 visits to $20. Um, basically without going through this whole massive list. What, what we've got is a plan that goes from, uh, this zero deductible plan with low copays to a deductible plan that does increase the out-of-pocket cost for employees. Um, so I had a meeting with, um, almost all of our unions and the superintendent of schools last Thursday. And as you can imagine, this wasn't entirely well received, but I didn't get thrown out of the room. And, and there's a reason why is first of all, collectively, I actually think that there's while this may not have been ideal, the cost of premium is affecting the employees as much as it's affecting the town. So we have to everybody is in agreement that we probably need to do something. Some people, very few might say, just leave it alone. But for the most part, I think everybody recognizes that this this is a cost that's going up double digits on average annually. It is the largest non-personnel line item we have. Um, you know, not including like, actually it's more than debt service. Um, so yeah, now it is the largest non-personnel line item we have. So there's clearly a motivation that if this number continues to increase, you will be in a position where you're choosing between benefits and jobs. You're not going to be able to keep both. It's just impossible.
[2:34:37] The direction I got from the unions, I wanted to say, was they wanted to have a sit down with Maya and explore other alternatives other than this alternative. And I did explain to them this was an alternative based on a particular benchmark. I'm happy to have more meetings and talk about other alternatives with the understanding that there has to be. We have to find a way to create two things some savings and a certain level of, I guess to the best of our degree. Some a little bit more stability in the pricing. And unfortunately, we will have to bear some of that cost as employees. How that savings gets shared or divvied up. I think that's a discussion for this board to have, and I'm sure some of our counterparts on the School Committee will want to be involved in that when it gets to that point. Um, I mean, I think we're we're a little bit a ways from that, but I thought the meeting overall went well, actually, because there were some really good questions about what the staff really wanted. And I think particularly those that are representing police would say, we want to make sure we still have access to good care in Boston when we need it without it being an astronomical price. Not to say that people aren't willing to pay a little bit more, but a lot more. Again, it's just they there was a feeling that we were just wanting to put all this on the backs of the employees and then save 750, 000 and, you know, call it a day. And I said that was that is not the direction we're looking to go in. There has to be some dialog about how this transpires, but there also has to be some savings because keeping what we have, as much as I think we all like it, we're also recognizing that the cost of premium is high. And just these changes resulted in a swing of $750,000, you know, on a $4 million line item.
[2:36:49] That's pretty significant, right? S1:
[2:36:55] Just by going from current to alternative.
[2:36:57] Yes.
[2:36:58] Based on based on current year pricing.
[2:37:00] Can I ask a couple of follow up questions. So on the alternative right, it says, you know, we'll just use the deductible $500. Single family. 1000.
[2:37:19] And is there any, like, negotiating to maybe move some of those numbers just to see what the difference in price would be? S3:
[2:37:31] Like what would that do? S2:
[2:37:31] Right. Yeah. So, so like the PCP office visit, like $20, it's still really low. Like what is $30 get us right? The emergency room visit 100 hundred dollars. That's still fairly low. Like what is 150 or 200 to 250 get us to kind of move the numbers a little bit. Right. And then I also saw down here, like the chiropractic visits, that's almost like a specialty. And so what would that look like if it was a little bit higher? And I'm just trying to think of like, how can we maybe look at this and just have like a broad set of options to kind of present to people, um, for, to see what, okay, this is what the worst case would be out of your pocket, but this is what the savings would be for not only your take home, but also for the town. Does that make sense? Yes.
[2:38:14] Um, so there was there was a lot of that back and forth. And I think that therein lies and I sort of say everybody was kind of going around the room talking about certain things. And I said, you've all made the case why you don't want to just go into the G. I c because it's tens of thousands of employees. So when the GIC has to make changes, the yes, they can do it a lot quicker. Um, because there's just no bargaining and really very little dialog there in terms of because it's just so massive. But the problem is you can't tailor it to you because if Georgetown were in the G, I c we'd just be one of many entities.
[2:38:56] And that might be a good I'm sorry to cut you off. That might be a good say, hey, this is this is the suite we're looking at here. This is what the GIC is. And here's the differences.
[2:39:05] Yeah, we should have some side by sides.
[2:39:07] Well, yeah.
[2:39:08] And you can I think you can tailor changes a little bit more to your organization's usage, where you know where to target certain increases and where to target certain decreases. That may be a win win for everybody. Um, and I did talk about, yes, increasing out of pocket costs, but also bringing on flexible spending, which historically, which well, I shouldn't say historically we don't have, but historically there was never a push for it because the out of pocket costs on our health insurance were so low. You know, so everything is built into just high premium and low out of pocket costs. But when you're doing this with pretax dollars, there is some incentive to shift to more out of pocket costs. And I thought Margo made a good point. Like we should just be doing flexible spending now regardless. Like that's not a big administratively it's a burden, but it's not a huge cost.
[2:40:07] And there's also the HSA too. And I don't know if these plans would kind of necessarily qualify for that.
[2:40:12] Probably not. I mean, there's still.
[2:40:17] You know, they're a little bit different in there in your a lot of your private sector insurance where I mean, I don't know what what you have, but it's probably high deductible, but then everything else is covered. But you got to meet that deductible first.
[2:40:31] Yeah, I'll be honest with you. Like the health insurance right here on the table is, is, is far better for the employee. Like I, I can tell you that I've had, I've, I do have a higher deductible, but there's also we also have co-insurance that's built into it. The premiums here are, are really, really good. So and I, and I have what's considered like really good coverage.
[2:40:54] Yeah.
[2:40:54] And so if you compare that to somebody who had like complete private market insurance, like I can see where, uh, certain people may look at this and say it's too rich a benefit. I think you also have to look at it from the perspective of the employee. Sure. And I try to balance both of that as a supervisor, but as also a fiduciary to the taxpayer. And so I again, some movement is better than nothing. And I don't think dismantling morale or making employees feel like they're not, they're not being properly represented is a good idea. And that's why, you know, it may be a little slower, but it is a collaborative approach. Sure. But I did say like, come February, March, like there's some decisions or some agreements need to be made in order to get ready for July. And if we can't get there, I think the board is going to have some decisions to make.
[2:41:53] One last question. Is this an HMO plan? HMO? So so there's no in-network out of network.
[2:41:59] We have a PPO plan, but there's not a lot of people on it. But this changes would be similar. Sure.
[2:42:05] That was a thank you.
[2:42:08] So we do offer, um, dental and vision too. Mhm.
[2:42:13] Mhm.
[2:42:14] No, I mean it's a, it's a, it's an unbelievable plan.
[2:42:19] Which are, which are fully funded by the employees. Um.
[2:42:23] Mhm. I think that the board did want to see this is good to have this, but we, we did ask and do would like to see, uh, more options, different plans other than, gee, I see I'm. Excuse me. Mhm. You know. Maya.
[2:42:43] Yeah. That might be that might be a little bit more difficult because people are leaving the market. Um.
[2:42:52] So what do you mean they're leaving?
[2:42:54] So when we bid it out two years ago, um, Maya was still the low bidder in Capital strategic. I think it was, um they, they had a, a consortium to put us in which no longer exists. It split up and some of those members went to the GIC some went on their own. Um so we can see what, what else is out there. Um but you really don't have like Harvard Pilgrim really active anymore in this space. Um, you know, so the thing is that whether it's mine or anybody else, you still end up at Blue Cross Blue Shield.
[2:43:38] You know, Maya is just the broker, right? At the end of the day, the, you know, blue cross, blue shield, Tufts Fallon, Harvard Pilgrim. That's that's who has the ultimate control.
[2:43:50] Yeah.
[2:43:53] It's a good starting point. A couple of questions.
[2:43:56] Sure.
[2:43:57] Um, so my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the override has basically been used up already. Uh, and that from, from basically chasing out and with insurance.
[2:44:23] I don't think we've used the additional monies that's in stabilization funds.
[2:44:29] Yes. Stabilization, but the, but the additional money that was there to carry us three years.
[2:44:36] This would be the third year, wouldn't it?
[2:44:39] Yes.
[2:44:40] This would be the third year.
[2:44:41] Really? Yeah.
[2:44:43] Wow.
[2:44:44] Really fast.
[2:44:46] Wouldn't it? I missed a year.
[2:44:47] No.
[2:44:48] No, this is the second year I thought you were talking about the next. Yeah, yeah. No, I was wrong. It was the second year you stole.
[2:44:55] My.
[2:44:55] Heart.
[2:44:56] So I, so I. So I guess I'm just. I guess I'm concerned. And I was talking with Alicia a little bit about this, and she was bringing me up to speed and I really appreciated it, but it, it's, um, it's a really tough spot and it's coming up and, um, it's not going to be just, uh, the insurance plan versus, uh, people in their jobs. Um, it's going to be bigger than that. And I just want everyone aware of that, that, you know, the override that was passed, meaning for ex, um, has pretty well been chewed up. And, um, we're going to have to face that very difficult issue with the public. Um, and it's not going to be easy, but that's all I wanted to say.
[2:45:47] And you're right. And that's the reason why we wanted to come up with a plan where we could do rolling predictable overrides because inflation alone kills the budget. Yeah.
[2:46:02] But I did make, I think everyone in the room when we met Thursday aware that, you know, I think in order to make taxpayers feel confident about overrides, other difficult decisions are going to need to be made that show a certain level of fiscal discipline.
[2:46:26] How tough.
[2:46:27] How how close is finance Committee kept up to speed with this?
[2:46:33] They don't they don't. I mean, I just sent this to Alicia today.
[2:46:36] So this is the first time.
[2:46:37] They don't have this.
[2:46:39] Oh, okay.
[2:46:39] I mean, they other than they understand they understand the ramifications of this cost, but they're not haven't been actively engaged in like helping reduce the cost.
[2:46:50] They haven't had their first meeting yet, have they?
[2:46:53] Uh, not on the not on the new budget cycle.
[2:46:56] Okay. Because I, as I promised, I will be going to those meetings to be a conduit back and forth. And I did speak to Alicia this week myself.
[2:47:09] Do we have any more talk on health insurance? If not Orlando, your two items, we could probably move to October 5th report. So because it's already headed towards 930.
[2:47:27] Uh, yeah, that's that's fine.
[2:47:29] Okay.
[2:47:34] So that being.
[2:47:35] Um, and we're meeting Monday anyway, so.
[2:47:40] Okay. So we're moving the town administrator's report to October 5th.
[2:47:56] All right, if there's nothing else. Motion to adjourn.
[2:48:01] So moved.
[2:48:02] Second.
[2:48:03] We have a motion to, uh. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? Aye. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be back October 5th.