[0:00] Good evening, I'd like to call to order
[0:01] this public hearing for the council for
[0:04] the Borough of Gettysburg.
[0:05] Monday, February 2nd, 2026, 6:30 p.m.
[0:10] Um we do need to record a roll call of
[0:13] everybody in the room. Uh so we will
[0:15] start over here with Sergeant Evans.
[0:17] We'll go around
[0:19] the table this way. And then we need to
[0:20] work our way back and forth through the
[0:22] gallery. Everybody needs to say their
[0:24] name out loud, please.
[0:26] Um Sergeant Evans, please.
[0:28] >> Sergeant Christopher Evans.
[0:29] >> Thank you.
[0:31] >> Mayor Chad Alencar.
[0:34] » Kimberly Myers.
[0:37] >> William Mooney.
[0:39] >> Chris Berger.
[0:40] >> Alicia Sanders.
[0:41] >> Matthew Moon.
[0:44] » Peter Bales.
[0:46] >> Jeff Rio.
[0:48] >> Sarah Stoll, Borough Secretary.
[0:50] >> Charles Gable, Borough Manager.
[0:52] >> John Whitmore, Planning Director.
[0:55] >> Chad Clebowicz, Engineer.
[0:57] >> All right. Uh Ella, would you mind
[0:59] stating your name for the records in the
[1:01] hearing, please?
[1:01] >> Yeah.
[1:03] Elizabeth Prieto.
[1:04] >> Thank you.
[1:05] >> Stacey Steffan.
[1:06] >> All right, over here, please.
[1:07] >> Harlan Lawson.
[1:09] >> Alaina Murray.
[1:11] >> Thank you.
[1:13] And then in the back.
[1:15] Thank you.
[1:15] >> Jennifer Daniels.
[1:16] >> Thank you.
[1:18] >> Cindy Small.
[1:19] >> Carolyn Waggaman.
[1:20] >> Mary Grace Kaufman.
[1:21] >> Troy Dean.
[1:23] >> Kelly O'Connor.
[1:24] >> All right. Did we miss anybody? Did
[1:26] everybody state their name and is
[1:27] everybody signed in?
[1:30] All right, thank you all.
[1:35] Um
[1:37] Mr. Lawson, would you like to take the
[1:38] podium?
[1:39] >> Thank you.
[1:44] » [snorts]
[1:48] » Are you ready for me to start my
[1:49] presentation?
[1:50] >> Certainly.
[1:50] >> Great.
[1:51] So my name is Harlan Lawson. I work with
[1:53] GMS Funding Solutions. I'm assisting the
[1:57] Adams County Children's Advocacy Center
[1:59] with their brighter tomorrow center
[2:00] renovations project.
[2:02] Um I'd like to first start out by
[2:03] thanking the borough staff for their
[2:05] collaboration and coordination getting
[2:07] this meeting scheduled and then
[2:09] rescheduled with the weather event we we
[2:11] received about a week ago. I appreciate
[2:13] you all your efforts on that front.
[2:16] Each year approximately 12% of the um
[2:20] state's CDBG allocation is set aside for
[2:24] the discretionary CDBG program.
[2:26] Any eligible Act 179 entitlement borough
[2:29] like Gettysburg is able to apply to that
[2:31] program if 75% or more of their most
[2:35] recent entitlement allocation is
[2:36] approved for a project.
[2:38] Um as we were we were fortunate enough
[2:40] to be selected for the borough's FY 2025
[2:43] entitlement allocation
[2:45] and that unlocks our ability to apply.
[2:48] So as a follow-up to that we would like
[2:50] to um submit a $1.2 million request to
[2:54] the discretionary CDBG program,
[2:56] sometimes referred to as the competitive
[2:58] CDBG program, for the brighter tomorrow
[3:00] center renovation project.
[3:03] The CAC is currently um located at 450
[3:07] West Middle Street where they provide a
[3:08] limited number of services. Those
[3:10] services are limited to what they could
[3:12] provide due to layout and security
[3:15] constraints. The renovations at 224
[3:18] Baltimore Street will provide ample room
[3:21] to accommodate the CAC's wide array of
[3:23] programs and services including child
[3:25] abuse investigations, forensic
[3:27] interviews, medical exams and clinical
[3:30] care, and mental health services.
[3:33] The project itself is eligible under the
[3:36] areas benefiting low and moderate income
[3:38] persons national objective
[3:41] via the limited clientele category
[3:43] as abused children are considered a
[3:45] presumed benefit population.
[3:48] Any renovations or improvements
[3:50] constructed at the facility will
[3:51] directly expand the CA's the CAC's
[3:54] ability to provide services to that
[3:56] presumed benefit population.
[3:59] Since our last presentation, we were
[4:01] fortunate to receive $500,000 from the
[4:04] local share account grant towards the
[4:06] project. This was a grant program that
[4:07] we applied for
[4:09] in 2024 and we were awarded funds
[4:11] towards the end of 2025.
[4:14] We also toured the DCED Deputy Secretary
[4:17] Rick Valello
[4:19] at the facility in January and received
[4:21] very encouraging feedback from the
[4:23] Deputy Secretary on the project's
[4:24] competitiveness for the discretionary
[4:27] CDBG program.
[4:29] So with that, on behalf of the
[4:31] Children's Advocacy Center, I'd like to
[4:32] respectfully request that the Borough
[4:34] Council entertain a resolution to apply
[4:37] to the competitive CDBG program for $1.2
[4:40] million
[4:41] for the Brighter Tomorrows Center
[4:42] Renovations project and I'm happy to
[4:44] answer any questions that the the
[4:45] Council may have
[4:47] on that request. Thank you.
[4:50] >> All right. Um,
[4:51] do we ask questions in a hearing? I
[4:53] don't think we do, do we?
[4:54] >> No.
[4:55] Um, so alas, we are not able to ask you
[4:57] any questions this evening, but for the
[4:59] folks who came in, do please record your
[5:01] names for us. Thank you.
[5:03] Um
[5:05] Is there any other information we need
[5:07] to discuss at this moment?
[5:10] >> Just a procedural matter. If you do have
[5:12] questions,
[5:14] you would be able to ask those at the
[5:16] formal business meeting, which will be
[5:18] after this.
[5:19] >> Right.
[5:20] All right. So at this point, we are here
[5:22] to accept public comment on this
[5:24] application.
[5:25] Thank you, Mr. Mr. Lawson. So is there
[5:27] anybody here who would like to speak for
[5:29] or against this intended use?
[5:37] » Can I We weren't
[5:39] expecting to say anything, but we're all
[5:41] here
[5:42] in support.
[5:44] >> Okay. Did anybody You to make a
[5:45] statement?
[5:47] This is a public hearing, so we're here
[5:48] to hear your your statements.
[5:54] » This is a prior board member, but
[5:57] >> I know. [laughter] I know, Irene. I
[5:59] know.
[6:00] We need you to state your name and your
[6:02] address, please.
[6:03] >> My name is Irene Powell.
[6:05] And I live at 212 Springs Avenue.
[6:08] Uh
[6:09] a few houses down from Matt and around
[6:11] the corner from Chris.
[6:12] Um I'm a not a current board member, but
[6:15] I have been for 6 years and I'll come
[6:17] back again in June.
[6:18] We've been working on this quest
[6:22] for many years because the Children's
[6:25] Advocacy Center has long outgrown the
[6:28] capacity of their current location
[6:31] on Middle Street.
[6:33] So, this is
[6:34] a greatly needed thing for all of the
[6:36] children in this county
[6:38] and their caregivers.
[6:40] And it's it's really really important.
[6:43] But, I do want to add
[6:45] this is a really neat old building
[6:48] right on Baltimore Street
[6:50] and we're going to comply and fully
[6:52] intend to have it
[6:55] face the community the way it has for
[6:58] I don't know how many years. And it's
[7:00] one of the only properties that has a
[7:02] front lawn.
[7:04] So, we're going to take good care to
[7:06] preserve everything as best as possible
[7:09] and be an integral part of the whole
[7:12] downtown community, participate in
[7:15] celebrations,
[7:17] be present. We will be there for
[7:18] everybody. I just wanted to add that
[7:20] little bit. Thank you.
[7:21] >> Thank you, Irene.
[7:23] Is there any other statements?
[7:34] » Hello. Thank you for the opportunity to
[7:35] speak. I'm Cindy Small. I'm the vice
[7:38] president of the board of the Children's
[7:39] Advocacy Center. And I think it might be
[7:41] important to point out what might happen
[7:44] if we are not able to move into this
[7:48] expanded space. Currently, we're really
[7:52] able to to
[7:54] with utmost privacy
[7:57] serve one child at a time in the old
[8:01] overstuffed house
[8:04] uh we are grateful for this house and
[8:06] for the members of the community that
[8:09] started the CAC over 20 years ago. But
[8:13] what we have done as an organization
[8:16] is we've grown from a service that
[8:19] provides the very basic most required
[8:23] services for these children in the
[8:25] immediate time where they may need to uh
[8:29] be seen or have to make an appearance in
[8:31] court
[8:33] to working with these children as they
[8:37] grow into teenagers and into adults. We
[8:41] are with them for life, we tell them. We
[8:44] do not discharge
[8:46] these children at the end of a forensic
[8:49] interview or at the end of mental health
[8:53] services. We tell them and their
[8:55] families, which is another extension of
[8:58] what we do, that we uh will provide
[9:02] these services. Therefore, this house
[9:05] that we would be
[9:06] uh rehabilitating
[9:09] will also provide support services for
[9:12] the families. We have um
[9:15] support groups for teenagers
[9:18] that goes, let's say if it extends for 6
[9:21] weeks, we've had the teenagers in the
[9:23] support groups ask us if they could stay
[9:26] for another 6 weeks because of the
[9:29] difference that it provides for them in
[9:31] their lives. So I guess it is really an
[9:34] example of the fact that we've expanded
[9:37] our services to encompass these young
[9:41] children and their families as they grow
[9:44] so that they can be healthy adults in
[9:46] our community
[9:48] and can appreciate a good life because
[9:52] of us being able to have the room to
[9:54] provide the extra services that are
[9:57] really important for them to move
[9:59] forward. Thank you for the opportunity.
[10:01] >> All right, thank you.
[10:03] Uh for everybody who just entered the
[10:04] room, we are in the middle of a hearing.
[10:06] If you intend to stay in the room, we do
[10:07] need you to sign in at the podium.
[10:10] Is there any further public comment?
[10:13] Thank you.
[10:16] » Hi, I'm Alida Murray, the executive
[10:18] director of the Adams County Children's
[10:20] Advocacy Center and uh the hopeful executive director of the
[10:24] Future Bright Tomorrow's Center. So, I
[10:26] thought um you know, I've got our board
[10:29] members here doing a wonderful job of
[10:31] explaining what the what the value is
[10:33] long-term to the community, but I
[10:34] thought it would be helpful
[10:36] in the here and now to give you a sense
[10:38] of the numbers that we are talking about
[10:40] in terms of what's happening within our
[10:42] Adams County community. So, in 2025, the
[10:46] Adams County Children's Advocacy Center
[10:48] conducted received referrals for 538
[10:52] referrals across Adams County.
[10:55] We served at our little one child at a
[10:58] time center at 450 West Middle Street
[11:01] 244 children accompanied by their family
[11:04] members, meaning their non-offending
[11:06] caregivers and their siblings or other
[11:08] family members. So, think about in the
[11:10] scope of a year one at a time 244
[11:13] children walk through our doors.
[11:15] Um and what an amazing difference it
[11:17] would make to have be able to be able to
[11:18] provide an additional level of support
[11:21] for who however many of those other
[11:24] remaining of the 538 kids who we weren't
[11:27] able to serve.
[11:29] Um
[11:30] to put a number on it in terms of
[11:32] Gettysburg and Gettysburg um
[11:35] the Gettysburg area, the areas um that
[11:38] is served by Gettysburg area school
[11:39] district, 24% of our kids come from
[11:42] Gettysburg area school district
[11:44] residences. So, the um in terms of what
[11:47] the borough and the and the kind of
[11:49] surrounding areas, that's 24% of the
[11:51] service continuum here in Adams County
[11:54] to put a reference on that. So, um yes,
[11:58] the decision, if you were to make the
[11:59] decision and I hope you do to um
[12:03] to approve this resolution, it's not
[12:05] just a today decision, but it's a
[12:06] forever decision for kids in Adams
[12:08] County. So, thank you for your
[12:09] consideration.
[12:11] >> Thank you. Any further public comment?
[12:16] All right, seeing none, we will adjourn
[12:18] to our next special meeting.
[12:33] business meeting for the Borough Council
[12:34] for the Borough of Gettysburg for
[12:36] Monday, February 2nd, 2026 6:50 p.m.
[12:40] that we are commencing at 6:44 p.m.
[12:48] All right. Uh so, we only have one
[12:50] matter of business before us here, and
[12:52] that is a potential resolution to
[12:55] support uh this this application for
[12:57] grant funding. Uh Mr. Whitmer, could you
[12:59] please give us the pertinent facts?
[13:03] » This is a complement to the prior FY2025
[13:07] CDBG project. It's basically the you
[13:11] you've uh
[13:12] they've been able to attain a certain
[13:13] level of funding through the um
[13:17] uh the guaranteed funds associated with
[13:19] being a state entitlement community.
[13:22] Uh this will allow them to then stretch
[13:24] the dollars to the 1.2 million as
[13:26] presented earlier at the public hearing.
[13:29] Um specific project um
[13:32] details and such I would recommend
[13:34] asking the applicant specific questions.
[13:36] >> Okay.
[13:37] So, a little background for council
[13:39] members. Uh last year we did vote to
[13:42] allocate our CDBG funds for the year uh
[13:44] to this project.
[13:46] Um I'm going to sort of loosely
[13:47] paraphrase the story, but essentially
[13:49] what we are providing them is seed money
[13:51] to begin their actual fundraising
[13:54] campaign. They needed to establish that
[13:56] they had the support and the financial
[13:58] support of the municipality to open up
[14:00] this other funding stream for them.
[14:02] So, if we were to adopt this resolution
[14:04] this evening, what we would be doing is
[14:06] continuing um
[14:09] to help them find the funding they need.
[14:12] Um I don't believe we're actually voting
[14:14] to contribute any additional funds
[14:15] ourselves at this point. Is that
[14:17] correct? All right.
[14:19] Does anybody have any questions for Mr.
[14:20] Lawson?
[14:25] Okay. Would anybody care to make the
[14:26] motion?
[14:28] >> I will.
[14:29] >> Um Matt, do we have to do It says public
[14:31] comment before.
[14:32] >> Oh, you're right. I'm so sorry.
[14:33] Uh is there any public comment before we
[14:35] do that?
[14:36] >> I'm so sorry. Thank you.
[14:38] >> Okay.
[14:39] Would anybody care to make that
[14:40] resolution?
[14:41] >> Sure.
[14:42] Going to read from the board.
[14:44] Um a motion to adopt resolution number
[14:46] 0122626
[14:50] authorizing the submission of an
[14:51] application to the Pennsylvania
[14:52] Department of Community and Economic
[14:54] Development by the Borough of Gettysburg
[14:56] for grant funding through the
[14:58] competitive Community Development Block
[15:00] Grant CB CDBG-C
[15:03] program to support the Adams County
[15:06] Children's Advocacy Center Writer
[15:07] Tomorrow's Center renovation project at
[15:10] 224 Baltimore Street within the Borough
[15:13] of Gettysburg. Charles R. Gable, MPA,
[15:16] Borough Manager and Sarah L. Stoll,
[15:18] Borough Secretary are are authorized to
[15:21] sign, attest, execute, and deliver any
[15:23] necessary application forms and
[15:25] documents required for the submission of
[15:28] the CDBG-C Grant Program application.
[15:31] >> Is there a second?
[15:33] >> Second.
[15:33] >> We have a motion and a second. Is there
[15:35] any discussion?
[15:39] All those in favor, please say I.
[15:41] >> I.
[15:42] Any opposed?
[15:44] All right, that motion carries. Is there
[15:45] any additional public comment on this
[15:47] matter?
[15:50] All right, thank you all. We are
[15:51] adjourned.
[16:00] Good evening, everybody. I'd like to
[16:01] call to order
[16:03] this workshop for the Borough of
[16:04] Gettysburg Borough Council
[16:07] for February 2nd, 2026.
[16:10] We do have a very full room tonight, so
[16:12] I just like to remind everybody, please
[16:14] make sure you've signed in at the door,
[16:15] particularly if you intend to speak this
[16:17] evening.
[16:18] And what a lovely moment this would be
[16:19] for everybody to silence their phones.
[16:22] Okay.
[16:24] Uh couple announcements.
[16:26] An executive session was conducted by
[16:27] the Borough Council of the Borough of
[16:29] Gettysburg immediately following the
[16:30] adjournment of its monthly general
[16:32] business meeting held on January 12th,
[16:34] 2026, consistent with Section of the
[16:37] Sunshine Act.
[16:40] An executive session of the Borough
[16:42] Council will be conducted immediately
[16:43] following the adjournment of this
[16:45] evening's monthly work session meeting,
[16:47] consistent with Section 708 A1, Section
[16:49] 708 A5 of the Sunshine Act, for the
[16:52] following purposes. One, to provide
[16:54] updated information and to discuss
[16:56] matters involving the employment or
[16:58] appointment of current or prospective
[17:00] Borough employees, and two, to review
[17:02] and discuss matters of Borough business,
[17:03] which if conducted in public could lead
[17:05] to the disclosure of information or
[17:07] confidentiality protected by law.
[17:10] Uh we do not have any special
[17:12] presentations this evening, so we'll
[17:13] move directly into our first public
[17:15] comment section of the evening. This
[17:17] section is reserved for items appearing
[17:19] on tonight's agenda.
[17:21] Uh we ask that you use the podium, speak
[17:23] directly into the microphone, please
[17:24] state your name and your address of
[17:26] residence,
[17:27] and please limit yourself to 5 minutes.
[17:30] If you do approach the 5-minute mark, I
[17:31] will ask you to conclude your thoughts
[17:33] as it seems there might be multiple
[17:35] people who would like to speak this
[17:36] evening.
[17:38] Uh is there any public comment?
[17:42] » [snorts]
[17:47] » Since everyone's storming, I'll go
[17:48] first.
[17:49] >> Thank you.
[17:50] >> [clears throat]
[17:50] >> My name is Miranda Weiser. My home
[17:52] address is 30 Musket Drive, Gettysburg.
[17:54] My work address is 140 Baltimore Street,
[17:57] where I am the executive director of the
[17:59] Adams County Library System.
[18:01] First, I want to recognize and thank the
[18:04] many library supporters that are in the
[18:05] audience this evening. So, thank you for
[18:08] coming out and supporting us.
[18:11] Community members with I'm speaking to
[18:14] uh number of 300 new business PB 222-4,
[18:19] the expansion of the historic district.
[18:22] Community members with close connection
[18:24] to HARB have approached us at the
[18:26] library to tell us that this is a move
[18:28] to control the library's future
[18:30] development plans on the south side of
[18:32] the seminary campus, and in doing so,
[18:35] perhaps usurp the Borough Council's
[18:37] authority.
[18:39] While I don't want to speculate to the
[18:41] validity of these rumors or why anyone
[18:44] would want to injure the economic
[18:46] liberty of an institution
[18:49] dedicated to to the public good, the
[18:51] functional outcome of this expansion
[18:54] will be exactly what the rumors assert.
[18:57] This change will make future development
[18:59] for the library system
[19:01] and any other property owner in the area
[19:04] significantly more challenging and
[19:06] expensive.
[19:08] The properties and landmarks of genuine
[19:10] historic significance within this area
[19:13] are already preserved through the
[19:14] Seminary Ridge Historic Preservation
[19:17] Foundation.
[19:19] And view shed protections from the
[19:21] National Park Service.
[19:24] These those structures in the area that
[19:26] merit historic Civil War era oversight
[19:30] currently fall within the existing
[19:31] harbor responsibilities.
[19:34] Expanding the district further would
[19:36] therefore create overlapping layers of
[19:38] regulation without providing meaningful
[19:41] additional preservation benefits.
[19:45] Instead, such an expansion would have
[19:47] negative consequences.
[19:49] It will significantly restrict
[19:51] development, rehabilitation, and
[19:54] adaptive reuse, particularly for
[19:57] buildings constructed in the 1960s and
[19:59] 1970s
[20:00] that do not possess the same historic
[20:02] character or significance of other
[20:05] protected buildings.
[20:07] These structures require flexibility for
[20:10] modernization in order to remain
[20:12] functional, economically viable, and
[20:15] align with the contemporary building
[20:17] standards of today.
[20:19] Imposing historic regulations on these
[20:22] later era buildings would discourage
[20:23] investment, slow redevelopment, and
[20:26] hinder the area's ability to evolve
[20:28] responsibly.
[20:30] Preservation and progress are not
[20:32] mutually exclusive.
[20:34] And the current framework
[20:36] existing already strikes a reasonable
[20:39] balance between protecting truly
[20:41] historic assets while allowing
[20:44] appropriate growth elsewhere.
[20:47] For these reasons, I urge the council to
[20:49] deny the proposed expansion exploration
[20:52] and to maintain the existing historic
[20:54] district boundaries. Doing so will
[20:57] preserve our community's heritage
[20:59] without unnecessarily constraining
[21:01] development, modernization,
[21:04] or economic vitality. Thank you.
[21:07] >> Thank you.
[21:08] Public comment.
[21:13] » Good evening. My name is Judy Morley. My
[21:15] home address is 1210 White Church Road,
[21:18] Gettysburg. My work address is 61
[21:20] Seminary Ridge,
[21:22] Gettysburg. I am the president of the
[21:24] Seminary Ridge Historic Preservation
[21:26] Foundation. I am also the author of um
[21:30] several books and articles on historic
[21:32] preservation policy, and it is what I
[21:34] got my doctoral dissertation what I did
[21:36] my doctoral dissertation on. My books
[21:38] are still required reading in city
[21:39] planning
[21:40] uh curricula throughout the United
[21:42] States. I don't say that to brag. I say
[21:44] that to say that I stand before you
[21:45] today as someone who understands the
[21:47] balance between historic preservation
[21:49] and development. And there must always,
[21:51] for a community to stay vital, there
[21:53] must always be a balance between
[21:55] historic preservation and development.
[21:57] When you lose that balance, you get
[21:59] Disneyland or you get Colonial
[22:02] Williamsburg.
[22:03] And we are a community where people live
[22:06] and work as well as come to visit.
[22:09] So, the Seminary Ridge area already has
[22:11] multiple layers of protection, as
[22:14] Miranda referenced. Not only are we the
[22:17] Seminary Ridge Historic Preservation
[22:18] Foundation, but our Civil War era
[22:21] buildings are part of the Harb
[22:23] Ordinance. So, Schmucker Hall, Schmucker
[22:25] House, and Crap House are already
[22:27] protected by Harb. Um
[22:30] we have National Park Service view shed
[22:33] uh
[22:35] requirements. We have an American
[22:37] Battlefield Trust easement on our
[22:38] property. And of course, the
[22:40] constrictions of any zoning within the
[22:42] Borough of Gettysburg. And so, that
[22:45] property is already well protected. I
[22:47] believe that if the expansion of the
[22:50] historic district goes through, that it
[22:52] will tip the balance from a healthy
[22:55] balance between preservation and
[22:58] community development to one that is
[23:00] overly bureaucratically weighted toward
[23:04] preservation when not really necessary.
[23:07] So, I too urge that the borough council
[23:10] do not uh consider the expansion of the
[23:13] historic district into Seminary Ridge.
[23:15] Thank you.
[23:17] >> Thank you. Public comment.
[23:30] » [clears throat]
[23:31] >> My name is Janelle Woodsberger.
[23:33] Um my home address is 3359 East Lincoln
[23:35] Avenue in Gettysburg. My work address is
[23:38] 300 North Washington Street.
[23:40] I'm speaking this evening against HARB's
[23:42] recommendation to create a new Seminary
[23:44] Ridge Historic District. Imposing new uh
[23:48] {quote} guiding principles, as HARB
[23:50] claims, is just not necessary at this
[23:53] gateway. More importantly, new
[23:55] restrictions are likely to negatively
[23:56] impact the construction of the new
[23:58] Gettysburg Public Library in that area
[24:00] of town. The benefits of having a
[24:03] purpose-built modern library available
[24:06] to our citizens far outweigh the
[24:08] architectural value of dormitories built
[24:10] in the mid-20th century, which are
[24:12] riddled with environmental problems that
[24:14] will be very expensive to remediate.
[24:16] Furthermore, the Seminary has expressed
[24:18] no interest in remediating them as their
[24:20] institution undergoes changes in student
[24:22] population after the merger. HARB's
[24:24] recommendation is simply unnecessary at
[24:26] the structure. Thank you.
[24:29] >> Thank you.
[24:30] Public comment.
[24:41] When we have these pauses, don't be shy.
[24:43] We can line folks up. That's not a problem. So.
[24:49] » Uh good evening. Um my name is Todd
[24:51] Maritz. I live on 61 East Broadway in
[24:53] Gettysburg.
[24:54] Um I've lived in the borough for more
[24:56] than 30 years and then the county for
[24:58] more than 50 years.
[25:00] I'm a library member.
[25:02] Uh I've been a library member for most
[25:03] of that time and a board member for more
[25:05] than 10 years.
[25:08] All the other branches of the library
[25:09] system have dedicated buildings that I
[25:12] believe except for New Oxford, but that
[25:14] includes Biglerville and East Berlin.
[25:18] Gettysburg does not. When I first came
[25:20] here, the library was in this building,
[25:23] the old prison. Um
[25:26] it's been beautifully repurposed,
[25:28] but um
[25:30] and then the library moved to the post
[25:32] office, which is also not a library
[25:35] building.
[25:36] So, um
[25:39] after many years of thought and
[25:42] discussion about what the library should do, whether it
[25:47] should stay where it is or move, um it's
[25:50] the the decision has been to
[25:53] uh to move to the area by the seminary,
[25:57] uh which though I believe the library
[25:58] has purchased. I don't know the
[25:59] financial
[26:01] uh
[26:02] what the uh
[26:03] how what the outcome would be if if this
[26:06] were prevented, because I think
[26:09] if the historic district were expanded
[26:12] as proposed, it would prevent the
[26:14] construction of the new library.
[26:18] I strongly oppose that and uh it makes
[26:21] no sense. It would result in a
[26:24] tremendous financial and social cost to
[26:26] the community.
[26:28] The library is one of the most important
[26:30] institutions in this in this community.
[26:32] Um it serves the central library in
[26:36] Gettysburg serves not only the borough,
[26:39] but I believe Straban and Cumberland
[26:41] Townships, which do not have their own
[26:43] library.
[26:44] So, more than 75,000 people walk into
[26:49] the library every year.
[26:51] Um
[26:52] and as you know uh uh
[26:55] parking is a a huge problem. The new
[26:58] library would
[26:59] um
[27:00] alleviate that problem.
[27:03] Um please don't prevent um the the move
[27:06] of the library to
[27:08] the proposed location. Thanks very much.
[27:12] >> Thank you, Don.
[27:13] Public comment.
[27:20] Please don't be shy.
[27:28] » Good evening, members of council. My
[27:29] name is Brandon Stone. I live at 358
[27:31] Park Street and I'm the chairman of
[27:33] HARB.
[27:35] Thank you.
[27:36] I just wanted to briefly note that at
[27:38] our December meeting, the Historic
[27:40] Architectural Review Board voted
[27:42] unanimously to recommend the creation of
[27:44] the Seminary Ridge Historic District.
[27:47] This proposal includes the Lutheran
[27:49] Seminary and the surrounding properties
[27:51] along 116 in West Confederate Avenue,
[27:54] which together form one of the borough's
[27:56] primary historic entry corridors.
[28:00] This recommendation follows the same
[28:02] rationale used by this council in 1999
[28:06] when the historic district was extended
[28:09] to protect the key with gateways into
[28:11] the borough.
[28:12] The Seminary Ridge represents the last
[28:14] remaining unprotected entry of that
[28:17] kind.
[28:19] Tonight, no action is required.
[28:22] The intent was simply to make the
[28:23] council and the public aware that the
[28:26] recommendation is complete
[28:28] and available should we wish to continue
[28:31] it as this year's priorities for
[28:33] council,
[28:34] including the upcoming chapter 11
[28:37] ordinance updates and recommendations to
[28:39] update the design guides. Together,
[28:42] working with the public, we can identify
[28:44] this as It's priority.
[28:46] Thank you.
[28:48] >> Thank you, sir.
[28:50] Public comment.
[28:57] » [clears throat]
[28:59] » Good evening. My name is Angela Soma. I
[29:01] live at 44 Winding Drive in Gettysburg.
[29:04] And I am speaking in opposition to the
[29:07] expansion of the historic district. As
[29:09] has been mentioned, the important
[29:10] historic buildings in that area are
[29:12] already preserved. And as also has been
[29:14] mentioned, the library is a critical
[29:16] institution to this area and to this
[29:19] town. But it is in woeful need of
[29:21] modernization. And they do need a new
[29:24] building. As was mentioned, parking is a really is really terrible at the
[29:27] library. And I think it's important that
[29:29] there not be more impediments put into
[29:31] place to creating a a more modern,
[29:35] bigger library that can serve the
[29:36] community better. Thank you.
[29:39] >> Thank you.
[29:42] Public comment.
[29:58] » Good evening to you all.
[30:01] My name is Teresa Smallwood. I am the
[30:03] Dean and Vice President for Academic
[30:05] Affairs at United Lutheran Seminary.
[30:08] I had absolutely no intention of
[30:10] speaking tonight, but once I heard the
[30:11] gentleman say there was no need to take
[30:14] action, it just warmed my heart.
[30:17] I live in Craft House. I've been there
[30:19] for almost 5 years.
[30:21] There is no more preserved institution
[30:25] than what lies on Seminary Ridge.
[30:29] And my concern is as a resident and
[30:32] someone who lives there,
[30:34] I want to see this library come about.
[30:37] Because it is the young people. It
[30:40] is the folk who come to our institution
[30:43] who will benefit the most.
[30:45] More particularly, we need to be
[30:47] concerned about the intergenerational
[30:50] interest we have in developing our young
[30:53] people to grow up and appreciate reading
[30:56] again. Thank you.
[30:59] >> Thank you, ma'am.
[31:06] » Good evening. My name is Rob Williams.
[31:08] Um I'm an employee of Seminary Ridge
[31:10] Museum and Education Center um located
[31:12] at 61 Seminary Ridge, Gettysburg. I'm
[31:15] also a member of the Board of Trustees
[31:17] of the Adams County Library System. Um I
[31:19] would like just like to mention um and
[31:22] um remind that after a survey from the
[31:25] Adams County Historical Society, um they
[31:27] did note that the location of the
[31:29] proposed location of the new library
[31:33] is of no historical significance. Uh so,
[31:35] there is no um reason for the Historical
[31:38] Society to believe that that library
[31:39] should not be built there. And uh to my
[31:41] knowledge, the the um library project
[31:44] does currently enjoy the full support of
[31:46] the Historical Society. I would also
[31:48] like to note, to my knowledge, um none
[31:50] of the organizations in question,
[31:51] whether it's the seminary, the library,
[31:54] or our museum, were approached by any
[31:55] members of HARB for our consideration on
[31:58] this on this proposal.
[32:00] Thank you.
[32:01] >> Thank you, sir.
[32:02] Any more public comment?
[32:08] Last chance?
[32:10] All right, we'll move on. Thank you.
[32:15] Um
[32:18] It is correct, we will not be taking any
[32:19] action tonight. Um
[32:21] one of the legislative priorities that
[32:23] the council has set for this year is to
[32:26] uh take a deep dive on potentially
[32:29] repealing and replacing the HARB
[32:30] ordinance with something a little bit uh
[32:33] more contemporary and um easy to
[32:35] navigate. Um
[32:39] Every time we change an ordinance, there
[32:41] is a significant cost to the borough.
[32:43] So, it is unlikely that we would
[32:46] consider making a change to an ordinance
[32:48] that we are about to scrap. So, if
[32:51] that's the way council decides to go
[32:53] with it. So, while the um
[32:56] discussion will be had by council at
[32:57] some point this year, we're not going to
[32:59] be acting on this anytime soon. In fact,
[33:01] tonight's meeting is a workshop where we
[33:03] simply discuss ideas. Um we will not be
[33:05] taking any votes this evening.
[33:08] Uh I'd like to hand this over now to Mr.
[33:09] Whitmore, who will make his presentation
[33:12] on uh the harb issues before us.
[33:15] >> So, good evening. Um
[33:17] we do have materials that were provided
[33:19] electronically.
[33:20] Overall, the uh policy briefing summary
[33:23] provides the gist. There's two separate
[33:26] themes that have been, I guess, running
[33:28] with this that aren't necessarily
[33:30] related. A, the need to update chapter
[33:34] 11 historic districts, the actual
[33:36] ordinance text, and the associated
[33:38] Gettysburg design guide, which was last
[33:41] published in 1997.
[33:43] Um we've reached a point where these
[33:47] documents are becoming obsolete. In
[33:50] particular, as the solicitor, Mr.
[33:52] Eastman, has indicated, there are some
[33:54] were issues with the um previous draft
[33:59] of the ordinance. There have been
[34:00] modifications made by council to that
[34:02] document. But, there are still some
[34:05] issues associated with the design guide.
[34:08] Um generally, an update of this
[34:10] magnitude would involve services of um
[34:16] a, I guess, a professional associated
[34:18] with an architectural firm that has
[34:21] experience in documenting in historic
[34:23] properties. In particular, um
[34:26] we want to make sure that the design
[34:28] guide that we're establishing for the
[34:30] borough is something that's not only
[34:32] defensible for the bureau, but is also
[34:34] in keeping with Pennsylvania State
[34:36] Historic Preservation Office guidelines
[34:39] and the Department of Interior
[34:41] guidelines as they relate to historic
[34:42] properties.
[34:44] Overall,
[34:46] the
[34:47] there's that aspect and then the second
[34:49] aspect being the expansion of the
[34:51] district. At this time, that's not
[34:53] something that staff is encouraging. The
[34:55] district itself is used as a kind of
[34:58] form-based code to a certain extent,
[35:01] which were from a I guess the zoning
[35:04] perspective of it, that may be better
[35:06] handled
[35:07] with the subdivision land development
[35:09] ordinance for some aspects as it relates
[35:11] to physical block development, the
[35:14] rhythm and scale of how buildings are
[35:16] arranged, not necessarily for the
[35:19] historic district, but it could be
[35:21] something identified and reviewed.
[35:24] Overall, though, what we're what staff
[35:26] is really concerned with is more about
[35:28] the design guide ordinance itself. Um
[35:32] Yes, at this time, we've presented we
[35:35] provide you all with the information
[35:37] provided by HARB at their December
[35:39] meeting recommending study be produced
[35:42] for the expansion or creation of a new
[35:44] district. Um overall, when we're talking
[35:46] about districts, it's also important to
[35:48] remember the entirety of the bureau is
[35:50] in a federal historic district as it
[35:53] this is that relates to the
[35:56] military park. Um
[35:58] being able to
[36:01] um
[36:02] facilitate the development of buildings
[36:04] within the bureau is something that the
[36:06] comp plan encourages. It's something
[36:08] that the
[36:10] I guess there's there's a want to be
[36:12] able to establish affordable housing in
[36:14] the bureau that's also
[36:16] potentially constrained with expansion.
[36:18] So, there's a lot of things to consider
[36:20] on that aspect. It would be something I
[36:22] don't think um
[36:24] staff it prepared to do for at this
[36:26] time, but it is something we can do but
[36:29] we're not recommending.
[36:31] A lot a lot of words just came out of
[36:33] myself, a lot of rambling to a certain
[36:35] extent, but overall
[36:36] the
[36:38] what we were proposing is a process
[36:40] whereby over a period of about the end
[36:42] of this year, we'd probably be able to
[36:43] have
[36:44] the ordinance updated relatively quickly
[36:46] and on a pathway for the design guide,
[36:49] engaging with HARB in this process, and
[36:52] then be allowing for public comment
[36:54] during those meetings.
[36:56] Overall, this shouldn't be a very taxing
[36:59] process, but like I said, once if it
[37:02] becomes necessary to engage the
[37:04] a professional architect in these their
[37:07] services, then we'll be able to evaluate
[37:10] any potential grant funding through uh
[37:12] SHPO.
[37:14] So.
[37:16] >> All right. Questions for Mr. Wilmer.
[37:22] All right.
[37:23] Uh so, we had previously been counseled
[37:26] by our solicitor that um perhaps we can
[37:29] look to some sort of uh model ordinance,
[37:33] uh something that is derived directly
[37:35] from the empowering state legislation.
[37:38] Um we
[37:40] our uh ordinance goes back about
[37:44] 60 years-ish
[37:46] and has had
[37:48] um
[37:49] multiple revisions and iterations that
[37:51] sometimes conflict, which is is causing
[37:53] issues. So, uh we think there's probably
[37:55] a path for a much um
[37:57] simpler approach to this, so that is
[37:59] something uh Mr. Whitmore, I believe,
[38:01] will be digging into with the solicitor
[38:03] in the coming months.
[38:04] Um
[38:05] in the uh interim, I would ask that
[38:07] members continue to identif- um
[38:09] familiarize yourselves with um
[38:11] documentation as it's provided to you.
[38:13] Um
[38:14] it would be beneficial that we all
[38:15] understand the full
[38:17] uh history of HARB within the borough.
[38:20] Um any questions for Mr. Whitmore?
[38:24] Anything else from you?
[38:25] >> Uh, that's all on this topic. Thank you.
[38:26] >> Thank you. Uh, Mr. Claybaugh.
[38:36] » Oh, man, he's going to the podium.
[38:46] So, I'm going to talk to you about
[38:48] street work. And before I get started,
[38:50] I'm guessing that majority of the people
[38:52] in this room are not here to listen to
[38:54] me talk about street work. So, I won't
[38:56] be offended at all if you get up in the
[38:58] middle of my presentation.
[39:00] No, I I love street work, and I hope you
[39:02] do, too, but I won't be upset.
[39:04] >> Okay, stand up.
[39:05] >> [laughter]
[39:08] » I didn't want this to be this awkward
[39:10] where somebody gets upset.
[39:12] >> [laughter]
[39:17] » But, you need streets to get to the
[39:18] library.
[39:19] >> Yeah, you do need streets to get to the
[39:20] library,
[39:21] and to all of our historic districts.
[39:25] So, so, um,
[39:27] the the main reason for my presentation
[39:29] today is because on your agenda next
[39:32] week, I'm going to be asking for an
[39:33] authorization to advertise the 2026
[39:36] street work. So, I wanted to go over a
[39:38] little bit what uh the scope of that
[39:40] project, talk to you about a few changes
[39:43] I'd like to make to the scope um from
[39:45] what was in your 2026 budget, and um
[39:48] kind of go over the schedule of the
[39:49] project for you. So, just kind of tee
[39:51] you up for the decision that you need to
[39:53] make next week.
[39:56] So, first we'll talk about the budget.
[39:59] Um,
[40:00] what you had in your budget is this
[40:02] number right here, the 363,000.
[40:04] And that incorporated two different
[40:06] things. It was It was $284,000
[40:09] worth of street preservation, base
[40:11] repair, that those kind of things, and
[40:13] also the $79,000
[40:16] um for the Steinwehr crosswalks. Uh two
[40:18] different
[40:20] budget items in your budget, but we put
[40:22] them all together and we bid them all
[40:24] together. Now, here's the complicated
[40:25] part is that we actually bid the
[40:27] crosswalks with the base repairs that go
[40:30] with the street because it's like type
[40:32] of work for contractors separate from
[40:34] the preservation. The preservation that
[40:36] we propose is this is there's there's
[40:38] crack sealing and then we put down a
[40:40] high-performance chip seal, which is
[40:43] a glorified chip seal with with
[40:44] high-performance chips that lock
[40:46] together a little bit better. They don't
[40:47] whip off so much. They're used in
[40:49] downtown settings and not like state
[40:52] roads out in farmland. Um and then we
[40:54] cover those high high-performance chips
[40:57] with this fog seal. And that's really
[40:59] the secret behind this this preservation
[41:01] treatment is this uh we call it a a
[41:03] griptight is is the
[41:05] formal name. Generic name is fog seal.
[41:09] Um but we cover that with this
[41:10] griptight. We've done this in a lot of
[41:11] streets in the past.
[41:13] Um Ridge, Howard, Washington High. Those
[41:16] are a few streets that we've done. And this is kind of a tried-and-true
[41:19] practice and we're we're really happy
[41:21] with it. Um so that's what we'd like to
[41:23] do again. There's only a certain amount
[41:25] of contractors that do this. There's
[41:26] only three that I know of. We had Martin
[41:28] that did it 5 years ago. AMS does it.
[41:31] Russell Standard. Um so we kind of bid
[41:33] that separately because we know what
[41:35] kind of contractors that come in and do
[41:37] the preservation. We bid that separate
[41:38] from all the rest of the street work. Um
[41:40] so that's kind of how this presentation
[41:42] is going to go. I'm going to talk to you
[41:43] a little bit about this $120,000 another
[41:45] line item and then I'll talk to you
[41:46] about the the Steinwehr crosswalks and
[41:48] then I'll go back to the preservation.
[41:49] Now, the streets that are in this
[41:50] $120,000 line item and the streets that
[41:53] are in the preservation are the exact
[41:54] same streets.
[41:55] So before we put the preservation down,
[41:58] we first fix all the potholes, all of
[42:00] the base repairs, and then we come
[42:01] through and make the whole thing black.
[42:04] So again, you what what you have
[42:05] budgeted is 600 or or 363,000.
[42:09] If you add up all of these numbers, you
[42:11] get to 348,000.
[42:13] >> [clears throat]
[42:13] >> So, we're a little bit under the budget,
[42:15] and one of the questions I'm going to
[42:15] have for you at the end of this is
[42:17] whether you want me to bid it this way,
[42:19] or do you want me to add one of the
[42:20] streets that I cut from this to be able
[42:21] to get below the budget, and that's
[42:22] Constitution. I'll get to that later in
[42:24] the conversation.
[42:27] >> [clears throat]
[42:27] >> Okay, so here's the streets. Um this top
[42:30] list of streets here is in your 2026
[42:32] budget.
[42:33] The bottom list of streets is what I'd
[42:35] like to change it to.
[42:39] This top list First, let me go back and
[42:41] say that this list of streets is
[42:43] something that Robbie and I developed
[42:45] over 5 years ago. When we developed the capital improvement plan, our CIP, 5
[42:49] years ago, that's where a large amount
[42:51] of these streets came from, and we just
[42:52] basically cut and pasted that into your
[42:53] 2026 budget. Um
[42:57] A lot of things have changed since 5
[42:58] years ago. There's utility work, you
[43:00] know, Columbia Gas does some stuff, we
[43:02] do some curb ramps, so there's some
[43:03] reasons why we wanted to change a couple
[43:05] of things. Plus, some of those streets
[43:07] have degraded to a point where it just
[43:08] doesn't make sense to do them with a
[43:10] preservation anymore.
[43:12] Um and then there was one Locust here
[43:14] that were that we're adding. So, the the
[43:15] things that are in red are the streets
[43:17] I'd like to cut from the list. The
[43:19] things that are in green are the the
[43:20] street that I would like to add to the
[43:22] list. So, Fourth Street, the reason I
[43:24] want to cut that from the list is
[43:25] because it's an $83,000
[43:27] line item just for the base repair, and
[43:30] then the preser- preservation is another
[43:31] 17,000. It's close to $100,000
[43:35] to preserve that street. For $100,000,
[43:38] you could basically mill and overlay
[43:40] that street. Brand new hot mix asphalt,
[43:42] not a preservation treatment. Um
[43:44] and the reason why it's so expensive is
[43:46] because the base has in the past 5 years
[43:48] failed to a point where it's about 50%
[43:50] of it that needs to be replaced. There's
[43:52] some details over here that just show
[43:53] you the different methods of base repair
[43:55] that we do. We basically mill out that
[43:58] the bad areas, there's potholes, and
[44:00] replace them with hot mix asphalt before
[44:02] we make the whole thing black.
[44:04] Whenever you get to close to 50% of the
[44:05] street, it doesn't make sense
[44:07] financially
[44:09] to do that anymore. Then it's better
[44:10] just to bring in a big milling machine
[44:12] and just do the entire street. So, I
[44:13] like to cut that one for that reason.
[44:15] And the And by the way, the the cost
[44:16] estimate that I gave you on the previous
[44:18] slide already excluded these these red
[44:21] line items.
[44:24] Constitution, I would I'm going to come
[44:25] back to that one. We We cut that one out
[44:27] of there to get below the budget, but
[44:29] I'm not so sure that I want to remove
[44:31] that one. That might one I might be
[44:33] want to stick back in, but I I'll talk
[44:34] to you about the budget for that one
[44:35] later. And then the last one is Queen
[44:37] Street. The reason why we want to cut
[44:38] that one is because Columbia Gas has
[44:40] come to us and they want to do a
[44:41] significant significant amount of work
[44:43] in Cool Park. Um and they're going to be
[44:46] chopping up that street. So, it doesn't
[44:47] make sense for us to put any money into
[44:48] it now.
[44:50] And then lastly, um down here is Locust
[44:52] Avenue. So, this is the the street that
[44:54] right at the bottom of Hillcrest.
[44:56] Everybody knows where Hillcrest is and
[44:57] Locust. Locust comes right off of of uh
[45:00] Baltimore Street and intersects at the
[45:01] bottom of the hill at Hillcrest.
[45:03] Whenever we did the preservation on
[45:05] Hill- Hillcrest 5 years ago, um we
[45:08] included Locust. I'm not sure why that
[45:10] wasn't included in the list this time,
[45:11] but it makes sense for those two to stay
[45:12] together. And it's not extreme uh uh
[45:15] a lot a lot of money to do that one.
[45:16] $85,000 to add that one.
[45:19] So, those are the change- changes I
[45:20] would like to make in the scope.
[45:23] Um
[45:27] Whenever we do preservation, there is a
[45:29] couple of things that we keep in mind,
[45:30] too. We don't necessarily have to do
[45:33] curb ramps with preservations. Um that
[45:35] is not a a a federal requirement, but
[45:38] there are some places where it makes
[45:40] sense. Um
[45:42] In that list was Washington Street and
[45:45] Stratton Street. So, this is the
[45:46] intersection. This is Stratton here, and
[45:48] this is Washington Street here. And if
[45:49] you ever come to this intersection, this
[45:50] inlet right here is real low. This
[45:53] curb ramp sits um
[45:56] sits full of water. There's a puddle of
[45:58] water right here at this intersection.
[46:00] And then And then just down from this
[46:02] intersection is this curb ramp and this
[46:04] one sits full of water. Uh
[46:06] we didn't have a whole lot of control
[46:08] whenever this project when it came in,
[46:10] this is a Columbia Gas related project.
[46:12] If you ever go down West
[46:14] Middle Street, the south side of the
[46:16] sidewalks are brand new.
[46:18] The north side aren't. And that's
[46:20] because Columbia Gas came in and put a
[46:21] brand new gas line down the south side.
[46:23] So we got a free gift. We got a brand
[46:25] new sidewalks from Columbia Gas down
[46:27] that side, but we didn't have a whole
[46:28] lot of control over these. And this is a
[46:29] typical thing whenever the curb ramps,
[46:31] they have to come in flush. The new law
[46:33] says that they have to be flush. You
[46:34] know, they don't have them raised at
[46:35] all. So it's a common thing where they
[46:37] get them in too low and then they sit
[46:39] full of water. We would like to make
[46:40] those adjustments. Anytime you do a
[46:42] preservation, you're making a street
[46:43] good again,
[46:45] drainage is a very important thing. In my paving courses in college
[46:48] actually,
[46:49] um the first three three lessons that my
[46:51] professor gave us was drainage, drainage. It's always fix the
[46:54] drainage first and then you fix the rest
[46:55] of the street. So these things are
[46:57] related to drainage. So we would like to do those couple of things. Get this
[47:00] just the just the dome area of those
[47:02] curb ramps, just the dome area of this,
[47:04] and this inlet changed a little bit. And
[47:06] I think there's a couple more. So this
[47:07] is Stratton Street here as well. The
[47:10] water comes down the street here and it
[47:11] misses it. There's a it's like raised up
[47:13] right here a little bit too high. And
[47:14] then that's one of my pet peeves is
[47:16] whenever we spend all this money to put
[47:17] these inlets in and the water doesn't
[47:18] even get in the inlets, just goes right
[47:20] around. And then that intersection sits
[47:21] full of water and it gets icy. Um it's
[47:24] not a major issue, but while we're doing
[47:25] this, now's the time to fix it.
[47:28] The the solution to this is really easy.
[47:29] Just mill the pavement down a little bit
[47:31] on the side before we put the
[47:32] preservation down.
[47:33] Um and this is also a Middle Street. If
[47:35] you go down West Middle Street, you
[47:37] might have hit this with your tires. Um
[47:39] I know Robbie hits it often with his
[47:40] snow plows. It's only 5 years old and
[47:42] it's already showing signs of distress
[47:44] from the snow plow hit get hitting it.
[47:46] So before we again before we do Middle
[47:48] Street, we'd like to just lower that
[47:49] inlet a couple of inches.
[47:52] >> [clears throat]
[47:53] >> Um now as like I said, it goes with all
[47:55] of those the street work that's the uh
[47:57] the Mill and Fill areas is these
[47:59] crosswalks. And just a council just as a
[48:02] refresher to the council that was here
[48:03] last year and
[48:05] an update to the new council members, we
[48:07] did bid this project last year.
[48:09] We bid the replacement of the two
[48:11] crosswalks. It's It's this one here in
[48:13] front of This is the Dobbin House.
[48:15] is sitting on this side.
[48:16] So, this is the crosswalk in the Dobbin
[48:17] House and this is the one right in front
[48:19] of Tommy's Pizza. So, that's the two
[48:20] crosswalks I'm going to talk about. We
[48:22] bid them last year. We only got one
[48:23] bidder and our bids were really high. We
[48:25] kind of bid it late in the season. I'm
[48:26] thinking that's why we
[48:28] our
[48:29] We got high prices, but for whatever
[48:31] reason it didn't fit our budget. So, we
[48:33] excluded that from the work we did. It
[48:36] was actually 2 years It wasn't last
[48:37] year. It was 2 years ago. We excluded
[48:39] that from the work and now we're back to
[48:41] back around a new cycle street work and
[48:43] we'd like to add it back in. We still
[48:45] have a highway occupancy permit from the
[48:46] state. We've been extending our permit.
[48:48] We are extended through this year. So,
[48:50] as long as we do the work this year,
[48:51] we're still within that same permit. Um
[48:53] but we would like to go ahead and try to
[48:54] replace place these two. Um One of the
[48:56] issues with this crosswalk is there used
[48:58] to be these in-road lights that flashed
[49:01] whenever you pushed a button there was
[49:02] in-road lights that flashed, but they
[49:04] were problematic. Um every time a
[49:06] snowplow hit them, they would knock the
[49:08] lights out and they were very expensive
[49:09] to replace. Um so, those have been
[49:11] removed and whenever they got removed,
[49:13] they weren't done great and now the
[49:14] whole thing's starting to fail.
[49:16] So, we would like to replace that
[49:17] crosswalk and then the other one is this
[49:19] one and pretty obvious um
[49:22] distress here in the street um on that
[49:26] western lane mostly
[49:28] um that needs to be cut out. So, the
[49:29] base the base repair is this line right
[49:31] here. So, you'd cut out all that base
[49:33] the bed area before we do the crosswalk.
[49:35] Uh whenever we did those crosswalks,
[49:38] they were done with an imprint material.
[49:39] Now, we would like to use an a material
[49:41] that's called um StreetPrint XD. The
[49:44] Tawney Town Road, which is this
[49:46] intersection way up here, and then also
[49:48] this other Steinwehr leg has a
[49:50] StreetPrint XD. It looks very similar to
[49:52] this one, but they're holding up way
[49:54] better. It's just a better procedure in
[49:55] my in my opinion. So, that's how we
[49:57] intend to do these. So, that's the same
[49:59] thing that we bid 2 years ago. It's
[50:00] exactly the same thing now, exact same
[50:02] price. That's That's not changing in
[50:04] your budget at all. I'm just letting you
[50:05] know that that's included in here. The
[50:07] only other thing I wanted to say about
[50:08] that is that's what's driving the
[50:10] schedule here. We would like to and the
[50:11] reason I'm coming to so so soon in the
[50:13] season to get this out in the street is
[50:15] because we hoping to get this thing bid
[50:17] sooner to get better bid results and to
[50:19] beat a lot of the 250th anniversary
[50:23] events that are happening this summer.
[50:25] So, we're hoping if we
[50:27] if if you authorize me to advertise this
[50:29] next week, I'll have bids ready for you
[50:31] to consider at your March meeting and
[50:34] then hopefully go to construction as
[50:36] soon as April, maybe May at the latest
[50:38] and beat a lot of the 250th anniversary
[50:40] things.
[50:44] So, we're back to the list of streets.
[50:45] This is exactly the same street list
[50:47] that I showed you earlier. Now, we're
[50:48] just talking about the preservation.
[50:50] That's the crack sealing, this chip
[50:51] seal, this high performance chip seal,
[50:53] and the and the grip tight salt fog
[50:54] seal. Um this is a a map just showing
[50:57] you the streets that we were talking
[50:58] about before. Um
[51:01] I was showing you that we wanted to
[51:02] eliminate This is Queen Street that we
[51:04] wanted to eliminate. I want to talk to
[51:06] you a little bit more about
[51:07] Constitution. As you can see,
[51:08] Constitution is a pretty long street. Um
[51:10] so, keep that in mind as we get to the
[51:12] next slide. And then,
[51:15] uh 4th Street right here, I'd like to
[51:16] eliminate that one. And then,
[51:19] like I said earlier, Locust. This is
[51:22] next to Hillcrest.
[51:25] But, that's just to show you on a map of
[51:26] all the streets that we're coming
[51:27] working on.
[51:30] Okay, so this is a very similar slide to
[51:33] the first slide. It's exactly that what
[51:35] you have in your budget, $263,000.
[51:37] I showed you all of the streets that I'd
[51:39] like to do is $348,000.
[51:42] Um so, we got a little bit of a balance,
[51:44] uh $14,000. So, you kind of have three
[51:47] options here. It's either say yes Chad,
[51:49] I'd like you to go ahead and
[51:52] advertise it excluding Constitution.
[51:55] We'll keep the $14,000 in our budget for
[51:57] something else. If you have a lot of
[51:58] other expenses that you're you're
[51:59] getting hit with, maybe you tell me that
[52:01] that's what you wanted me to do.
[52:03] You might tell me, "No Chad, I want you
[52:04] to add Constitution
[52:06] um and we're we're going to bite the
[52:09] bullet and we're going to increase the
[52:10] budget to to to pay for that as well."
[52:12] Or you might say, "Well, we're not sure
[52:13] yet. Can we bid it as an alternate?"
[52:15] That's also an option. We can bid
[52:17] Constitution as an alternate. I would
[52:18] say only
[52:20] that
[52:21] it'll add a little bit of effort from my
[52:23] end to bid it as an alternate, but not a
[52:25] lot of money. We're talking about maybe
[52:26] 500 to 1,000 dollars. If you absolutely
[52:28] are sure that you're not going to want
[52:29] to do it, just tell me don't do that.
[52:31] We'll save the 500 bucks. If you want me
[52:33] to bid it as an alternate, takes a
[52:34] little bit of time to bid it as an
[52:36] alternate, but it's not a huge lift. Um
[52:38] so, you might tell me that, "Just just
[52:39] go ahead and bid it as an alternate for
[52:40] now and then we'll decide if we want to
[52:42] do that once we get bid results." Again,
[52:44] all of these estimates I'm providing you
[52:45] are engineers' best guess, right?
[52:47] They're Once we get the bids in from the
[52:49] contractor, you'll have another
[52:50] opportunity to decide on exactly what
[52:52] streets you want to do.
[52:54] So,
[52:55] um
[52:56] Constitution again is is a it's a pretty
[52:58] expensive street, right? So, it's a long
[53:00] street. There's $9,000 worth of base
[53:02] repairs. Preservation's 38,000 for a
[53:05] total of 47,000. So, if you wanted to
[53:08] add the $47,000
[53:11] to the project, obviously the $14,000 um
[53:15] but balance isn't going to cover the
[53:17] full 47,000.
[53:22] So, that is
[53:24] it for the street preservation work
[53:27] unless you guys have any questions for
[53:29] me.
[53:32] » Any questions?
[53:33] Um
[53:36] Was this Was this under um
[53:39] what, liquid fuels that we budgeted
[53:41] this?
[53:44] » No.
[53:45] >> I I think the the street preservation
[53:48] work was liquid fuels, but not the
[53:51] Steinwehr crosswalks.
[53:53] >> Okay.
[53:55] Um
[53:59] I guess just could you speak a little
[54:00] bit about like
[54:02] you know, your pick like why these
[54:04] streets or why like this one just gets
[54:07] improvement while this one gets repairs?
[54:08] Is it just because of the conditions or
[54:10] like do you have a criteria you go by
[54:12] for that?
[54:13] >> Yeah, yeah, certainly. Um so so one of
[54:16] the things whenever we do um street
[54:18] maintenance plans is we like to keep the
[54:20] good streets good. That's kind of the the slang for it. Um if there's a
[54:25] street that's within
[54:27] 7 to 10 years old before it starts to
[54:30] degrade to a point where you need to do
[54:31] a full base repair, you try to do a pre-
[54:34] preservation treatment. These
[54:35] preservations only cost about $5 a
[54:37] square yard. If you have to do a full
[54:39] replacement, it's $50 a square yard. So
[54:42] it's 10 times more expensive to replace
[54:44] a street than to preserve a street. And
[54:47] you can preserve a street over and over. Every 10 years you can
[54:50] preserve it again. And you could extend
[54:52] the life of a street by 100 years if you
[54:54] kept doing it every 10 years versus
[54:56] having to wait till it fails. Once it
[54:58] gets to a point where it's
[55:00] showing failure like I was talking about
[55:01] with Fourth Street. That one's to the
[55:03] point where a preservation isn't going
[55:05] to help it anymore. The preservation
[55:07] There's There's all kinds of things that
[55:08] degrade pavement and a preservation
[55:11] keeps the pavement from degrading, but
[55:13] it doesn't fix the base below it. It's
[55:15] just a It's just a band-aid on the top
[55:17] es- essentially. Um so everything that
[55:19] we're doing in this
[55:21] preservation plan is just that, a
[55:23] preservation. None of this work is full
[55:26] replacement. Any Any street that gets to
[55:28] the point where it's getting to be a
[55:29] full replacement, we remove those. So
[55:32] the base repair areas that I'm showing
[55:34] are small areas. They're just pothole
[55:36] areas, you know, 5
[55:38] 10-x-20, you know, those kind of things.
[55:41] And maybe just a straight-line mill right down the
[55:44] middle if there was a crack down the
[55:45] middle or those kind of things. It's not
[55:47] full milling the street out and
[55:48] completely rebuilding it because again,
[55:50] that would be $50 a square yard. And if
[55:52] anybody any any municipality that's only
[55:55] re- doing the older streets
[55:57] and taking care and and putting all of
[55:59] their money into the older streets is
[56:01] usually falling behind because it's just
[56:04] dumb and money into those older streets.
[56:06] It's always better to keep those good
[56:07] streets good while you can. Does it Does
[56:09] that answer your question?
[56:11] >> Yeah, I think so.
[56:13] Um
[56:14] for that 14 grand
[56:16] would you I mean
[56:18] is there already a contingency line item
[56:20] built into the initial budget for that?
[56:23] >> Yeah, yeah. So So like I said, there is
[56:25] some engineering These are engineers'
[56:27] estimates. And we do have a little bit
[56:30] of contingency. I'm going to say about
[56:32] 5%. We don't really know until we get
[56:34] our bids back. Even once we get our bids
[56:36] back, I usually say that you should have
[56:37] a little bit of contingency in your
[56:38] budget because
[56:40] you know, as we're doing these base
[56:41] repairs, we try to estimate them as We
[56:43] had our inspectors go and look at all
[56:44] the streets
[56:46] and get an estimate of how like the
[56:47] percentage of base repairs that we'd
[56:49] have to do on the street before we do
[56:50] the preservation.
[56:52] Once again, once before we actually go
[56:54] to construction, we're going to go out
[56:55] there with our inspectors again. We'll
[56:56] actually paint out squares on the on the
[56:58] pavement on the areas that he has to
[57:00] actually replace. And then we'll pay him
[57:02] for exactly what he did. So, that whole
[57:05] process it ebbs and flows a little bit.
[57:07] So, there is a little bit There's
[57:08] probably about a 5% contingency I would
[57:10] have to say in some of the quantities
[57:12] that we gave you. But I I I hate to give that away too early in the
[57:16] process because if we get really bad bid
[57:18] results,
[57:19] >> Yeah.
[57:20] >> you know, it might it might be a year
[57:21] where all of these There's only three of
[57:22] these contractors that do this and they
[57:24] might all
[57:25] just happen to have filled their
[57:26] schedule and they don't really need any
[57:28] more work. And all of a sudden, we get
[57:29] really high bid results. Now, one thing
[57:32] that is good news so far is that fuel
[57:34] prices have been step pretty steady to
[57:36] low
[57:37] and pavement preservation is highly
[57:40] dependent on fuel prices or oil prices.
[57:44] >> Um and then I saw there's like that
[57:46] little line where it says like March
[57:48] 30th, contract one through May 29th, and
[57:52] contract two April through May.
[57:55] Would you try to have like say for the
[57:57] Steinwehr project where it's high
[57:58] volume, would you try to have that in
[58:00] the earlier of that schedule?
[58:02] >> Yep. Exactly.
[58:03] >> Okay.
[58:04] >> Yep, which we would like to try to get
[58:05] to that one as soon as possible. Now,
[58:07] you can't start any work on state roads
[58:09] before April 1st. So, that's part of
[58:10] what drives that schedule, but as close
[58:12] to April 1st as possible, we would like
[58:14] to get Steinwehr done. The rest of the
[58:15] streets are not going to have as big of
[58:17] an impact on tourist traffic.
[58:20] >> Thank you.
[58:20] >> Sure.
[58:24] » I just have a quick question.
[58:26] Um so, um it's sort of about the
[58:28] contingency um
[58:30] built in and that was already answered,
[58:32] but um
[58:34] suppose that there's close to $14,000
[58:37] left when you're getting sort of nearing
[58:40] the end of the project, would you be
[58:42] able to consider or reconsider some of
[58:44] the curb ramps that we sort of set
[58:46] aside?
[58:47] Um or could you not sort like mix
[58:51] apples and oranges and and use money
[58:53] from this budget to take care of some of
[58:55] the curbs that we
[58:59] aren't using the CBD?
[59:00] >> Yeah, I I understand the question. I
[59:02] think the answer is that it would be
[59:05] difficult.
[59:06] I don't think the answer's no. I think
[59:08] you could, but there are it's I think
[59:11] you like you said it's a bit apples and
[59:12] oranges
[59:14] or apples and
[59:17] vegetables. Yeah, so it would be it
[59:18] would be something it would be it would
[59:20] be a little bit difficult to add it.
[59:22] >> Yeah.
[59:22] >> Okay. Thank you.
[59:25] » Any thoughts about
[59:27] >> I'm sorry, go ahead.
[59:27] >> I might have missed uh
[59:29] you talking about what would what would
[59:30] be the benefit of adding Constitution.
[59:33] Did you originally take that out and
[59:35] then
[59:36] you
[59:37] brought it back in, but
[59:39] you're hypothetically saying it's going
[59:40] to be over budget by about 50,000. What
[59:43] would be the benefit of then doing it
[59:45] this year and
[59:48] going over budget to do it is
[59:50] >> Good question and I don't think you
[59:51] missed it and so let me be I'll try to explain a little bit better. So,
[59:55] um
[59:56] Constitution is one of like just like I
[59:57] was explaining to Mr. Bales,
[1:00:00] if you can keep your good streets good,
[1:00:01] that's that's really important.
[1:00:03] Constitution is one of those streets
[1:00:04] where you can still keep it good. If you
[1:00:06] would get a treatment on it soon, it
[1:00:09] hasn't shown a lot of base failure. It's
[1:00:11] got a decent cross-section. It's not
[1:00:13] rutting. It's not blanketing. It's not
[1:00:16] um getting polished, uh bleeding out.
[1:00:19] It's all of the things that we look for
[1:00:21] in pavement um failure. So, it has the characteristics of a street that
[1:00:25] could use a preservation to preserve it.
[1:00:27] And if you would not preserve it now,
[1:00:30] that's a pretty long street um that's
[1:00:31] going to cost a lot of money later down
[1:00:33] the road. Um
[1:00:35] 10 times as much later down the road. Um
[1:00:38] so,
[1:00:38] >> just to interrupt real quick, um
[1:00:40] since we
[1:00:42] uh as the bids exist now, we're looking
[1:00:44] at a $14,000 surplus on the budget line
[1:00:46] item. So, if we add in the 40
[1:00:49] $7,000 item, then we're looking at a
[1:00:51] $33,000 overage.
[1:00:54] >> Yeah, and that's and that's exactly
[1:00:55] Thank you, Matt. Is that that's exactly
[1:00:57] why I was looking for what street could
[1:00:59] I cut and get it back within the budget.
[1:01:02] And that was the only really big one.
[1:01:04] All the rest of them are, you know, five
[1:01:06] or $10,000
[1:01:07] line items and they weren't getting me
[1:01:08] below your budget. That was the one that
[1:01:10] I had to chop to get below your budget
[1:01:12] and get that $14,000 balance.
[1:01:14] >> But you're saying we'll get the cost
[1:01:15] savings over time
[1:01:17] >> Oh, absolutely. Yes.
[1:01:18] >> by
[1:01:19] biting the bullet now and saving money
[1:01:21] in the future.
[1:01:22] >> In in a perfect world, if if I could
[1:01:24] give you a you know, and of course my
[1:01:26] engineering judgment has to include your
[1:01:28] budget. Has to
[1:01:29] I got to be the a steward of your of
[1:01:31] your finances.
[1:01:32] Um
[1:01:33] but I would say it's a good use of your
[1:01:35] money to preserve Constitution now. So,
[1:01:38] in a perfect world, if you could use if
[1:01:39] you could do that, too, that would be a good idea.
[1:01:42] >> And so, Charles, would we fund the
[1:01:43] overage through liquid fuels? And do we
[1:01:45] have I I think we have a pretty
[1:01:47] substantial liquid fuels balance there,
[1:01:49] don't we?
[1:01:50] >> we could do it through liquid fuels. We
[1:01:51] could do it through capital projects or
[1:01:53] just absorb it into the general fund, as
[1:01:55] well.
[1:01:55] >> We have a pretty significant liquid
[1:01:57] fuels balance, right?
[1:01:58] >> Over 900.
[1:01:59] >> Yeah.
[1:02:00] So,
[1:02:02] um you know, $33,000 out of a $900,000
[1:02:05] fund to preserve a road that's going to
[1:02:06] cost us 10 times more if it fails in 10
[1:02:09] years. I mean,
[1:02:10] what do you guys want to do with that?
[1:02:12] >> Um I have maybe a silly question. Is it
[1:02:15] possible to split up the improvements
[1:02:19] and the preservation, or does that all
[1:02:21] have to be done at the same time?
[1:02:22] >> Yeah, they kind of go together. Yeah, because the the preservation
[1:02:26] itself, um that that Grip Tight fog seal
[1:02:29] and that chip seal, doesn't fix any of
[1:02:31] the base failure. And the base failures
[1:02:33] are kind of underneath. We cut those
[1:02:35] areas out, fix them first, and then we
[1:02:36] cover the whole street black. So, they
[1:02:38] kind of go together.
[1:02:39] >> My other question is if you were to do
[1:02:42] Constitution Avenue, would that be done
[1:02:44] over the summer?
[1:02:46] >> All of these things would be done over
[1:02:48] the summer, yeah. Yeah. And and
[1:02:50] >> With the exception of Steinway.
[1:02:52] >> Except for Steinway. Steinway would be
[1:02:53] as soon as possible, April April 1st at
[1:02:56] the soonest. Um all of the rest of the
[1:02:58] things, so because there's two different
[1:02:59] contracts that we deal with, the first
[1:03:01] contractor if if he comes in to do
[1:03:03] Steinway in in the end of April, that
[1:03:05] same contractor might go through and do
[1:03:06] all of the base repairs and get that
[1:03:07] done in April or May, and then contract
[1:03:10] two with the street preservation, that
[1:03:12] contractor might come not come in until
[1:03:14] August or September.
[1:03:16] They don't like to do those
[1:03:17] preservations into October, but those
[1:03:19] could be as late as September.
[1:03:20] >> Right. Yeah, I guess with Constitution I
[1:03:23] was just like I walk on Constitution
[1:03:25] every single day. Like that's super busy
[1:03:27] for the college. Um
[1:03:29] so just thinking we could do it when the
[1:03:31] college is out of session.
[1:03:32] >> Absolutely. Yeah, and that is something
[1:03:34] that we work closely with with Jim
[1:03:36] Bisecker on any street work we do and
[1:03:38] make sure that we're coordinating with
[1:03:40] his events and try to try to avoid
[1:03:43] freshmen are moving back in and that
[1:03:44] kind of thing. So yeah, absolutely.
[1:03:46] >> Great. Thank you.
[1:03:48] >> I think um sorry.
[1:03:50] I think um
[1:03:52] that $14,000 might might might not
[1:03:54] actually be there when we get quotes
[1:03:55] back. We might be well over that. We
[1:03:57] might have to pull into the budget just
[1:03:59] to get that done. So I think it would be
[1:04:01] a good idea to bid that as a um ala
[1:04:04] carte so to speak. Like you you like you
[1:04:06] mentioned um so go with the your
[1:04:09] recommendations and see where that comes
[1:04:10] back and
[1:04:12] have an extra bid
[1:04:13] for Constitution if and if it falls
[1:04:16] within if the numbers work then I think
[1:04:17] that would be good. I agree with you. Uh
[1:04:19] we want to avoid um
[1:04:22] pushing the pushing the bill down the
[1:04:24] road.
[1:04:25] But
[1:04:26] when these bills when these bids come
[1:04:27] back it might that 14,000 might not be
[1:04:30] there.
[1:04:31] We'll see.
[1:04:32] >> Accurate. Yeah.
[1:04:33] >> Yeah.
[1:04:35] >> Do we do these street improvements,
[1:04:37] street preservation every year?
[1:04:39] >> No, we do them in the in this last SIP
[1:04:42] which was is it five or six years ago
[1:04:44] that we were
[1:04:45] >> Right. That Charles five
[1:04:46] >> Five years ago. We've had two two street
[1:04:48] preservation contracts in that five
[1:04:50] years.
[1:04:52] So you we usually have
[1:04:53] every other year we'll do a street
[1:04:55] preservation contract three years at the
[1:04:57] most. We like to do a preservation
[1:04:58] contract and then the off years we'll do
[1:05:01] some some complete street repave so next
[1:05:04] year we already have a couple of streets
[1:05:06] that we're going to be completely
[1:05:07] rebuilding. That's going to be East
[1:05:08] Lincoln Street associated with a storm
[1:05:10] water project. Um East Railroad Street
[1:05:13] we're going to be completely rebuilding.
[1:05:14] So, there's some full rebuild projects
[1:05:18] that are different than these
[1:05:19] preservations.
[1:05:21] And that's not an exact science that we said two two times within five
[1:05:25] years. It's that's a a roundabout what
[1:05:27] we'd like to try to do.
[1:05:33] » Okay.
[1:05:34] Um
[1:05:36] any other thoughts?
[1:05:40] Um I kind of like Mr. Mooney's approach
[1:05:43] there of um
[1:05:45] breaking out the bids
[1:05:47] as the add-on there. I think that might
[1:05:48] be the way to go.
[1:05:51] Anybody else?
[1:05:52] >> I agree with that.
[1:05:54] >> All right. Cool.
[1:05:55] >> I'll move forward with uh bidding
[1:05:56] Constitution as an alternate.
[1:05:58] >> Great and perfect.
[1:05:59] Uh now I I think you're also going to
[1:06:01] talk to us about the Charters of Freedom
[1:06:03] Plaza.
[1:06:03] >> Yeah, and I can be pretty quick with
[1:06:05] this one and um
[1:06:07] and for the for the council members that
[1:06:08] aren't aware of this, through our
[1:06:10] subdivision land development process and
[1:06:12] our ordinance, we have a requirement for
[1:06:15] a developer's agreement. Uh there's two
[1:06:18] different forms of developer's
[1:06:19] agreement. There's a small form and a
[1:06:21] large form. The large form includes a
[1:06:22] lot of financial security items for
[1:06:25] whenever there's like new streets or
[1:06:26] things be dedicated to the bureau. Um we
[1:06:29] require the the developer post a bond to
[1:06:31] secure those things. Then there's a
[1:06:33] smaller form. In this case, we'd be
[1:06:35] using this smaller form of the
[1:06:37] developer's agreement. Um but really
[1:06:40] what I'm the reason and and and this is
[1:06:41] a very very much a formality. Um the
[1:06:44] planning commission has approval
[1:06:45] authority in Gettysburg for subdivisions
[1:06:48] land developments. And they would
[1:06:49] approve a in this case a subdivision and
[1:06:53] then the developer's agreement would
[1:06:55] come to you guys. I wouldn't usually
[1:06:56] have this presentation to you like this.
[1:06:58] It would just come to you and say, "Hey,
[1:06:59] look, they they approved the
[1:07:00] subdivision. Now we need the developer's
[1:07:02] agreement to
[1:07:04] um be approved by you guys." Only you
[1:07:06] guys can approve agreements. The
[1:07:07] planning commission can't do that. So,
[1:07:08] that still have to come to you guys.
[1:07:09] Just like an operation and maintenance
[1:07:11] stormwater management agreement. This
[1:07:12] These would also come to you guys.
[1:07:14] Uh the reason why I'm coming to you in
[1:07:15] this case is because there is a bit of a
[1:07:17] chicken and an egg thing. So, this is
[1:07:20] the subdivision plan and John has a copy
[1:07:22] of the big packet of subdivision plans
[1:07:24] that are all going to go to the planning
[1:07:25] commission in 2 weeks from now.
[1:07:27] Um that's way more detailed than this
[1:07:29] one.
[1:07:30] Um but just to give you an idea of what
[1:07:32] what's being proposed here is So, the
[1:07:35] Dawbin house is right here. The Charter
[1:07:37] of of Freedom Plaza is proposed right
[1:07:39] here. Well, this house right here
[1:07:41] currently sits in that location. The
[1:07:43] HARB has approved it to be relocated to
[1:07:46] this location. Currently, there is a old
[1:07:49] block garage that sits in that location.
[1:07:51] That's also been approved for for
[1:07:52] demolition. This is the old red um barn
[1:07:55] that sits in the back. So, this house is
[1:07:57] going to get moved to this location. And
[1:07:59] then this house is going to stay. Um and
[1:08:02] it's going to get turned just slightly
[1:08:03] so that it kind of marries up with
[1:08:05] Washington Street, but it also faces the
[1:08:07] charters. Um that's the best way it
[1:08:09] could fit in there.
[1:08:11] As you can see by its configuration,
[1:08:13] there's a lot line that exists currently
[1:08:14] down the middle. This new building will
[1:08:16] sit right on top of that lot line. So,
[1:08:18] you can't really
[1:08:20] build or move that house until that lot
[1:08:22] line's fixed. But you also can't create
[1:08:24] this line
[1:08:26] until that's this process is done
[1:08:28] because now you have create a garage on
[1:08:30] the back of that lot that lot and that's
[1:08:33] a not a
[1:08:35] it's not a primary it's not able to be a primary use a garage by
[1:08:38] itself.
[1:08:39] So, there's this chicken and an egg
[1:08:41] dilemma
[1:08:42] um on how to get past this. And after
[1:08:44] meeting with John and talking about the
[1:08:46] best way to approach this, we said,
[1:08:47] "Well, we got to do this developer's
[1:08:48] agreement anyways. Why don't we just say
[1:08:50] in there that that the borough will
[1:08:52] allow this development to move forward
[1:08:54] and Jackie White, the pro project owner
[1:08:57] here, will agree to finalize the
[1:09:00] subdivision process. So, she will
[1:09:02] eliminate essentially this line. Don't
[1:09:05] let that She won't let that line there.
[1:09:06] She'll actually She's got to sell that
[1:09:08] property to herself essentially for a
[1:09:09] dollar or whatever, so that that line is
[1:09:12] eliminated, right? So, that's how this
[1:09:13] is going to have to happen. It would be
[1:09:15] awfully So, in today's world, it's
[1:09:17] actually kind of really cool that you
[1:09:18] can move a house, but as you can
[1:09:20] imagine, you wouldn't be able to just
[1:09:22] hover that house in air while you're
[1:09:24] going through this month or two process
[1:09:26] of the subdivision. So, rather than
[1:09:28] hovering a house in the air while you're
[1:09:30] going through all this stuff, you would
[1:09:31] do a developer's agreement that would
[1:09:33] say that both parties agree that borough
[1:09:35] would agree to approve the process of
[1:09:37] moving the house.
[1:09:39] Ms. White would approve or agree to
[1:09:42] finalizing the subdivision process, and
[1:09:45] that would allow her to go ahead and
[1:09:46] proceed with the project. So,
[1:09:49] that is essentially why this developer's
[1:09:51] going to come This development
[1:09:52] agreement's going to be on your agenda
[1:09:56] prior to the subdivision being approved
[1:09:59] by the planning commission. That's why
[1:10:01] there's this chicken and egg thing.
[1:10:04] Although they go together. Does that
[1:10:05] make sense?
[1:10:07] Clear as mud.
[1:10:08] >> No. [laughter] No.
[1:10:10] >> I apologize if I confused you cuz
[1:10:12] sometimes I confuse myself with this.
[1:10:14] >> [laughter]
[1:10:15] >> All right. Any questions about that?
[1:10:21] All right. Thank you, sir.
[1:10:22] >> Sure.
[1:10:28] » Cats.
[1:10:33] » Good evening. I was told to keep this
[1:10:35] very quick, and I think we can.
[1:10:37] Um overall, we've received some concern
[1:10:40] from our spay neuter partners, Forever
[1:10:44] Love Rescue,
[1:10:45] uh regarding enforcement of our current
[1:10:47] cat regulations as they appear in
[1:10:49] chapter two, animals.
[1:10:52] In particular,
[1:10:54] the owner of a cat is defined as someone
[1:10:56] that feeds a cat. That presents a
[1:10:58] problem as individuals who engage with
[1:11:02] the services of Forever Love Rescue are
[1:11:04] bringing them stray animals to be spayed
[1:11:06] or neutered, which
[1:11:08] research indicates does decrease the
[1:11:11] population of feral cat colonies. So,
[1:11:14] it's a positive.
[1:11:15] By ending that program, that would be a
[1:11:18] net negative for the borough. We'd have
[1:11:20] increased feral cat populations. Um
[1:11:23] staff has proposed uh that either we,
[1:11:27] the borough,
[1:11:29] just directly update the ordinance with
[1:11:31] basic language that we provided whereby
[1:11:33] instead of saying any person owning,
[1:11:36] keeping, feeding, uh harboring, or
[1:11:39] having custody of a cat, any person who
[1:11:41] allows a cat to reside or remain about
[1:11:43] his or her premises shall be considered
[1:11:45] a cat owner,
[1:11:46] uh getting rid of most of that language
[1:11:48] to just have it state any person owning,
[1:11:50] keeping, providing permanent shelter and
[1:11:52] habitat, harboring, or having custody of
[1:11:55] a cat is a cat owner. Um that should
[1:11:58] alleviate the initial concerns, but
[1:12:01] additionally, if it's council's wish, it
[1:12:03] would be probably beneficial to actually
[1:12:05] have a meeting with Forever Love Rescue
[1:12:07] and to discuss their concerns and
[1:12:10] formulate a more proactive ordinance to
[1:12:14] facilitate their efforts and efforts to
[1:12:16] control feral cats.
[1:12:18] So, that that's what we have from staff.
[1:12:24] » Okay.
[1:12:26] Um any thoughts on that?
[1:12:30] » I do, but I'm just I'm laughing about it
[1:12:32] only because it's
[1:12:33] um
[1:12:34] I never knew it was in there and um I
[1:12:37] just think about all the good deeds that
[1:12:38] people do and feeding cats and just
[1:12:41] making sure they're well-kept and and
[1:12:43] just out of the goodness of their heart
[1:12:44] and I don't think they should be
[1:12:46] considered the owners of the cats. I
[1:12:48] mean
[1:12:49] >> So,
[1:12:50] >> of like old, but I'm trying to
[1:12:51] understand it.
[1:12:52] >> We heard arguments to the to the exact
[1:12:54] opposite a few years ago when we started
[1:12:57] the trap, neuter, release program. Um
[1:12:59] there were, I believe, four key areas of
[1:13:02] the borough that had large colonies. Our
[1:13:06] neighborhood has several colonies.
[1:13:09] And there are good-natured folks who
[1:13:11] will do things like put out
[1:13:14] a ton of wet cat food for these feral
[1:13:16] cats. And
[1:13:17] um not only do the cats enjoy the cat
[1:13:20] food, but so do populations of skunks,
[1:13:22] so do um rabbits, so you know, all sorts
[1:13:25] of stuff.
[1:13:26] Um
[1:13:28] So there there are um multiple
[1:13:30] overlapping public health issues. Uh cat
[1:13:33] feces in your garden is bad for you. You
[1:13:36] shouldn't eat any plants if they've been
[1:13:38] um
[1:13:38] fertilized by cat.
[1:13:40] Um there's lots of reasons to control
[1:13:43] those populations.
[1:13:44] Um
[1:13:45] when they at the at the very least when
[1:13:48] they become overpopulated, they tend to
[1:13:50] starve.
[1:13:51] So um
[1:13:53] we did partner to create the trap,
[1:13:55] neuter, release program. It is a
[1:13:58] minor expense. I think the first year we budgeted $2,500 and it's dropped
[1:14:03] every year since.
[1:14:05] But we're still having good success in
[1:14:07] controlling those populations.
[1:14:09] Um
[1:14:10] so if you are a person who is
[1:14:12] encouraging the breeding of feral cats
[1:14:14] in your neighborhood, um
[1:14:17] there is a level of responsibility that
[1:14:20] you know, you will
[1:14:22] um
[1:14:23] need to take on and just having a good
[1:14:25] heart and wanting to feed them is not
[1:14:26] necessarily the end of the conversation.
[1:14:29] [laughter]
[1:14:30] >> I [snorts] wasn't making it the end of
[1:14:31] the conversation. I was just pointing
[1:14:33] out that sometimes people don't know
[1:14:35] that their good deeds are leading to
[1:14:37] other issues and complications and
[1:14:39] totally respect what Forever Loved does.
[1:14:41] They've been
[1:14:42] >> Yeah.
[1:14:42] >> doing that for a long, long time and
[1:14:44] >> Yeah, and it's been a it's been a
[1:14:46] success for us.
[1:14:48] >> [clears throat]
[1:14:48] >> Um
[1:14:49] All right, does anybody have opposition
[1:14:51] to begin a conversation with them to
[1:14:52] make sure that we're crafting the
[1:14:53] language in a
[1:14:55] way that's um
[1:14:57] as mutually beneficial as possible.
[1:15:00] >> All right.
[1:15:01] >> So, let's get going on that.
[1:15:03] >> But clarification, as a cat owner, do I
[1:15:06] have to keep feeding my cat until we
[1:15:07] decide on this or can I stop feeding
[1:15:09] [laughter] my cat?
[1:15:12] >> I'm not going to tell you how to live
[1:15:13] your life, so.
[1:15:16] Uh Mr. Gable, juror parking.
[1:15:19] >> Uh yes, juror parking. Um there is a
[1:15:22] draft
[1:15:24] uh memorandum of understanding or
[1:15:26] agreement uh between the uh the the
[1:15:29] bureau and the county
[1:15:31] uh in your packet for your review.
[1:15:34] It's uh
[1:15:36] just some minor tweaks from what we have
[1:15:38] existing uh previously for uh those uh
[1:15:41] new on council
[1:15:43] uh the bureau partners with uh the court
[1:15:46] system here in Adams County to provide
[1:15:49] for the parking of citizens called to
[1:15:52] jury duty.
[1:15:53] Uh whenever court is in session,
[1:15:56] uh those potential jurors uh park in the
[1:15:58] Resource Alley garage uh at designated
[1:16:01] spaces
[1:16:03] um and then a nominal fee is charged to
[1:16:06] the county for those parking privileges.
[1:16:09] Uh so, all of that is articulated in the
[1:16:11] renewal of this MOU. Um
[1:16:15] it's it's been successful from the
[1:16:17] bureau's perspective. Uh the court
[1:16:20] communicates with uh the folks in the
[1:16:21] parking department for when court is
[1:16:23] going to be in session. We uh then uh
[1:16:26] promptly reserve those spaces uh at the
[1:16:28] top of the garage.
[1:16:30] Uh the jurors come in,
[1:16:32] uh do their civic duty, and leave.
[1:16:35] Um
[1:16:36] this happens about once a month.
[1:16:38] It's not onerous. Obviously, it's
[1:16:40] usually during the week, so it's not an
[1:16:42] issue of you know, taking up spaces,
[1:16:45] storing large events, or other things
[1:16:47] happening in town.
[1:16:49] Uh so, the MOU is terminating, so we
[1:16:53] should renew it.
[1:16:55] >> All right. Any questions on that?
[1:16:59] Any opposition to continuing our
[1:17:01] long-standing practice of helping people
[1:17:03] engage in their civic duty?
[1:17:05] All right.
[1:17:06] >> That's good.
[1:17:06] >> We'll be good to go.
[1:17:07] >> Thank you.
[1:17:08] >> All right. That concludes our new
[1:17:10] business. We don't have any current or
[1:17:11] old business, so that takes us back to
[1:17:13] our second public comment section of the
[1:17:14] evening. This section is not restricted
[1:17:16] to items appearing on tonight's agenda.
[1:17:18] We do ask that you use the podium.
[1:17:21] Please state your name and address, and
[1:17:22] limit yourself to 5 minutes. Is there
[1:17:24] any public comment?
[1:17:29] » Good evening, again.
[1:17:32] Thank you for the opportunity to speak,
[1:17:33] Mr. Wilson.
[1:17:39] Thank you.
[1:17:41] I appreciate the comments
[1:17:43] offered earlier this evening. I want to
[1:17:45] clarify a key point for the record.
[1:17:48] The historic architectural review board
[1:17:50] recommendation to create a new district
[1:17:53] does not halt, nor does it prohibit the
[1:17:56] development, nor does it automatically
[1:17:58] prevent the demolition of any structure
[1:18:00] within the borough.
[1:18:01] The historic district establishes a
[1:18:04] review process for the exterior, so that
[1:18:07] decisions are made deliberately and
[1:18:09] transparently.
[1:18:11] Importantly, no application related to
[1:18:14] the library project or the seminary
[1:18:16] dormitories is before HARB
[1:18:19] at this time, and any future proposal
[1:18:22] would be reviewed on its own merit
[1:18:24] without with full opportunity for public
[1:18:26] input,
[1:18:27] deliberation
[1:18:29] of the project's public benefit.
[1:18:32] The intent of the recommendation is to
[1:18:34] ensure one of the borough's most
[1:18:36] important, significant, historic
[1:18:38] gateways is thoughtfully managed over
[1:18:40] time consistent with the approach
[1:18:43] Council has already taken elsewhere. It
[1:18:46] is not intended to preclude civic
[1:18:48] investment or institutional growth.
[1:18:51] If Council were to consider funding a
[1:18:53] study as part of the Chapter 11 update,
[1:18:56] that effort could align with the borough
[1:18:59] with other certain state and federal
[1:19:01] grant opportunities
[1:19:03] related to planning, preservation, and
[1:19:06] community development.
[1:19:08] Ultimately, the recommendation simply
[1:19:10] provides Council with an option for
[1:19:12] future consideration. It does not impose
[1:19:16] any outcome on any specific projects.
[1:19:20] Thank you and good evening.
[1:19:22] >> Thank you, sir.
[1:19:25] I don't see any other people from the
[1:19:27] public here, so I think I can safely say
[1:19:30] we can adjourn to executive session.
[1:19:32] Thank you.