good evening can everybody hear me okay
great thank you
so we're going to get started in a
couple of
minutes so one thing I would like to ask
every just a couple housekeeping items
if uh if you haven't signed in please do
so there's two Sig in sheets at each of
the
entryways feel free to grab some cookies
and and water that's important
housekeeping
oh and I would also ask if if anybody
has a laptops or phones with microphones
to disable them if they could because it
picks up the signal in the room and
we'll get feedback on these
microphones so I believe are we ready to
get started
everyone okay well um again
welcome my name is Dr Greg Kramer I'm
the superintendent parks and trees and
the tree warden for town of Greenwich
and uh this is our our first kickoff
meeting related to our master plan for
pomarance tuckman and we have our GZA
team here I'll introduce very shortly um
tonight I'd like everybody to kind of
give the feedback um that they feel
they'd like to express there's no good
or bad feedback is just feedback so I
want this to be an open forum for for
discussion and thoughts and and ideas
because that's how we develop really
good plans and from there team will take
all that information and start to
develop uh a plan so right now there is no P plan per se but there is
some ideas and again this is an open for
to express those
ideas so I would like to introduce our
team who's here today uh Steven Leo is
the principal in charge in planning for
GZA um he's been with the organization
for 35 years in planning and permitting
and environmental analysis of natural
resources and management
projects um he specializes in land use
planning Trail assessment and planning
wet L assessment environmental impact
evaluations as well as federal state and
local
permitting uh Mr Leo has been involved
with numerous large scale planning
efforts throughout the Northeast United
States with a focus on
Connecticut uh where there is a broad
knowledge of many technical elements
allow him to successfully manage large
scale interdisciplinary and complex
projects
um the next is our is Daniel
Shaw he's our project manager and point
of
contact uh Dan has been a project
manager and primary point for contact
during this process he's a registered
landscape architect who's created
landscape designs for a range of clients
including Architects municipalities and
state agencies
uh to name a few Dan's background has
given him a broad knowledge of design
public spaces Parks Trails playgrounds
and waterfronts his knowledge in green
infrastructure resilience planning and
natural and build environments to
promote Health ecology restoration and
planning at both neighborhood and
Regional
levels uh Dan is a collaborator and
Communicator with skilled in participate
design and public speaking will actively
involved in a community engagement
process he's an active listener making
interactions with the community and
accountable and positive
progress um to my immediate left is CC
Saunders she's a historical
documentation specialist um she's the
principal of historic preservation since
1982 has been served and a principal
investigator and primary author and
public manager for numerous cultural
resource projects she's met professional
qualifications for national park
services uh Miss Saunders currently
serves as the governor's appointed
member of the Connecticut State historic
preservation review board a position
she's held since
1993 the board is also for reviewing and
editing Statewide National registered
nominations before transfer to
Department of interior national park
services where can Connecticut Urban
rule in Waterfront sites Miss Saunders
has directed a full range of projects
that encourages I'm sorry encompasses
archival research archaeological
evaluation and field investigations
structural assessment visual impacts
analysis master plan development she's
also unique prior experiences having
served the town of granch Conservation
Commission and also with us tonight is
Kora atani
anania um she's an ecological scientist
she's helped out in ecological site
visits in the park with staff her
background is in biology with a degree
in Environmental
Management she's worked with a range of
clients including local Connecticut
towns state agencies and involving
projects focusing on trail maintenance
ecological assessment and living
shorelines so that's our team uh from
GZA and then I also would would like to
introduce some of our staff here on on
board we have Dan Carlson who's our
assistant Park director and Darren
Wigglesworth who's our park operations
manager so without further Ado um I
believe we can get the presentation uh
present start so Dan if you'd like to
take it
away thanks for the introduction Greg
just gonna start sharing my
screen thank you all for coming out can
you all hear me all right thanks to
anyone listening at home on Zoom so
we're here to talk about the pommerin
and tuckman site here in Greenwich it's
a town-owned pair of parcels that is
used as a public open space for Passive
Recreation and has has been in town
ownership um at this point for a couple
of decades and it saw an uptick in use
around 2020 and the need for a long
range vision for the plan to to manage
it going forward was was highlighted
during that time
so um this project is to create an
overall guiding vision for the p and
tuckman
site so this is a map showing the the
project area the pomerance parcel is the
larger one that's uh to the west and the
tuckman parcel is the slightly smaller
one to the east they together comprise
just over a 100 acres of open space
and the significance of this as an open
space is uh not only its its size and
the resource that it offers but also its
uh connectivity to other parks in the
neighborhood as well as it's being
walking distance from you know the the
center of ccob and neighborhoods where
lots of people live so as I'm sure you
know it's it's a valuable resource for
those
reasons um where we're currently at is
we're creating this master plan and
we're at the stage right now where we're
not drafting recommendations or anything
like that yet we've been working on
background research site investigation
historical research and now we're here
to present background information about
the project and the site with you all
and to have a discussion in the second
half of the evening tonight to get your
ideas your thoughts your experiences of
how you use the site and we'll be
recording those ideas so that we can um
reflect those in the recommendations
that we're going to produce for this
project so that's that's what this slide
here summarizes this is where we're at
in the scope of the project so in bold
there is where we're at now um the the
next steps after we uh there's this
public meeting simultaneous with this
there's an online survey that's been
launched and so far we've had a lot of
uh participants I think we're already up
to 500 responses on it it poses a range
of questions about how you use the Pomer
and tuckman park what you see as the
priorities there um and you know
together with the discussion that we'll
have tonight we're taking that feedback
into account as we then move on to the
next step um in the coming weeks of
starting to draft uh initial
recommendations for the master plan so
when we get to that stage there will be
a second public meeting it hasn't been
scheduled yet it may be in December but
we'll we'll post that when it's been
planned and at that point we'll share uh
preliminary ideas that we've started to draw together as a project team um
for some further discussion and feedback
on that and then we'll finalize the
master plan after
that so to give a little background um
we'll get into the the history of this really interesting pair of sites
but they they were purchased by the town
in um 2000 starting with the pomerance
parcel which is 75 acres and when the
town acquired that piece of land they
put together a committee to look at what
the best use for as a public uh resource
this this could be and the the pomerans
planning committee in 2001 recommended
to keep the the land used as open space
protected for Passive
Recreation and um their recommend
included a few modest site improvements
which have been implemented there's a
small parking area and there's a
restroom and they looked at the
feasibility of various uses that had
been floated for that site in 2007 um
the town had the opportunity to buy the
31 acre tuckman parcel and so now
together those two Parcels have formed
one contiguous Park and really the two
Parcels are seamlessly connected with
the Montgomery pinetum as as well so it
all together forms U an extensive open
space and then uh various uh open space
plans and planning uh reports and
Studies have been done by the town since
then which this open space uh supports
the goals of and I'll I'll just run
through those quickly in a second and as
I mentioned in in 2020 with the pandemic
people staying at home we saw an uptick
in the use of this park and um you know
when a park starts to become almost
loved to death you have to start to say
okay well how are we going to sustain
this level of foot traffic and
visitorship and all of this so that
highlighted the need to take a step back
and look at the master plan for how we
prioritize improvements in this park and
how we Steward it um so just a few of
those reports I was talking about so the
town looked at the pomerance parcel in
2001 made some recommendations there's a
cob neighborhood plan which um this pair
of pars as open space supports goals of
the uh 2019 Greenwich plan of
conservation and development um has
goals that the uh Palmer and tuckman
site can
support um protection of of this par
pair of parcels also supports the 2022
Greenwich open space plan when we look
at things like you know protecting
undeveloped land from uh development
that is one aspect of the the two
Parcels that will get into a little bit
tonight it's um owned by the town but
these two Parcels don't have any kind of
formal restriction from development
placed on them there's there's no
conservation easements or anything like
that so being owned by the town is a
measure of protection but it's not
technically uh fully protected from
development so that and that is one of
our goals going into this project the
project team feels it would benefit from
protection um and this is an excerpt
from that open space plan the pommer and tuckman Parcels are down at the
bottom of that area that's circled but
what this is showing that these two
Parcels form a uh Greenway of uh
connectivity to larger Open Spaces in
the region the myis uh Greenway is not
far to the north from this so that adds
you know another level of priority to to
protecting open space when it connects
other existing open
spaces so the the goals that our project
team you know uh with the town here have
going into this project are to form a
master plan for Palmer and tuckman that
protects provides a pathway for
protecting the parcels from
development a strategy for mitigating
climate change impacts in the
community enhancing biodiversity and
climate resilience in the parcels
identifying appropriate recreational
uses inside Improv
improvements finding an appropriate
strategy for celebrating the site's
unique history we'll get into that in a
moment um CCE our historical consultant
dug up there's a ton of History here and
as you probably know there's a lot of
remnants of that sites of of that
history on the
site so finding out how to celebrate and
feature that if we choose um building
Community understanding of the project
site and background in part we're doing
that that tonight by sharing the
background with you all and then forming
a master plan based on all of that that
provides a guiding Vision big picture
and then also uh priority projects and
improvements that can be implemented and
we'll identify um you know paths forward
and and a master plan like this can be
used as a resource for applying for
funding for pursuing grants showing that
there's been a assessment and
prioritization of what the the most
meaningful improvements would be for a
space like
this so with that I'm going to turn it
over to Cece to share the site's history
with
us thank you Dan um I'm gonna stand up
because I'm so short that I would really
be a talking
head
um as Greg said I am an
archaeologist and I must say that my
first Stateside archaeology
project was in costop you know 45 years
ago uh and I know that most of you know
this history of kostov this parcel but
uh bear with me I'm just going to do
some highlights I have written many many
pages beyond what I'm giving but for
your patience I've cut it that back down
but I will give you the whole thing
okay um
most of the settlers who came to the
kasab
area started farming uh mainly for the
Staples for their own
family uh and that was the 18th century
uh it was one of the first densely
populated areas because of the harbor it
was myanus River provided a fantastic
Harbor uh the soil wasn't so good as you
know it's Rocky right all of you who
work in a garden uh they were able
mainly to do apples
potatoes and
onions uh but as the colonist continued
to arrive the remaining indigenous
inhabitants M speaking members of the
larger Delaware
Nation uh they were pushed
out um and I'm gonna say that they were
part of the sanoi
satum you had other smaller tribes along
the coastline but they were all part of
the sil sanoi Saum which is west of the
Norwalk fivemile
River we have radiocarbon dates in ccob
of 13,000 years ago we know that in
Connecticut um you have many
more
archaeological sites and in um
particular in he's trying to do my
slides based on my speech but I'm not
following it am I okay here you are oh
close enough okay you want to see this
yeah there you go um I'd like to
congratulate West uh grenwich it was the
second town in the state to enact
archaeological preservation as part of
your planning and zoning and so you were
seeing not that I think you could PR
read it but this is one of many pages of
about more than 75 archaeological sites
in Greenwich and so we know that 13,000
years ago is just a drop in the bucket
because we have radiocarbon dates in
Connecticut from 12,000 years ago um but
I think you should be proud of
greenwich's contribution to this record
for the state it was the spread of
exotic diseases as well as ever growing
conflicts with settlers and with the
British army um and
intermarriage with uh the settlers um
with uh freed blacks and with enslaved
Africans that really disp and the
dispersal of the
sanoi so that you do not have a
representative First Nation here we have
a record of the
last occupation which was about 30 Acres
um in the ccab area near Exit 4 that's
the greinwich Deeds show that uh that
was the last occupation of Native
American tribes here okay um the first
big transformation of this string of
little Villages along the coastline was
the introduction of Roads first the
Boston Post Road or Benjamin Franklin's
uh postal route um that came um the uh
1806 was when it came through the area
which is now the Greenwich High
School through that uh Israel putnam's
Hill that's when it was blasted that was
the first time they had the blasting
available there um then you had the
railroad come through in 18 19
48 uh that was the big turning point
because you
were part of the big city now uh
Greenwich changed its name and at that
time from Horseneck to Greenwich horck
being a little too provincial it was
felt by 1850 you already have three
trains a day going between Greenwich and
New
York uh within a few more years there
were seven trains a day going back and
forth and by 1902 you had a trolley that
would connect you with Forester and to
the East
Stamford so it was that timing that gave
you this outsides market and connections
with the bigger
world uh it was this combined ease of
using the railroad excuse me I already
have up
here uh our
parcel Orchard Street on one side Bible
Street on the the other uh it was the
combined ease of traffic and getting
back and forth that introduced the next
big era which you all know about the era
between 1870 and 1920 the greatest
States so you could come out to
Greenwich and have
a an Italian Villa or you could have
um an aristocratic estate or or or a
French Chateau whatever you chose to
create on your private
property and then you would have
outbuildings to evoke this image and
that's the reason you had these greatest
States I'm sure all of you have seen the
book that came out what 30 year 30 40
years ago the greatest States and it was
very very much a dominant part of this
property and how it was settled and cre
and created for the the first family
that took
over um it was the same time period that
the ccob harbor was turned into um a
famous art colony so we had a lot going
on at this time now what is now the
pomeran tuckman property it began as a I
think originally it was like an 80 and a
half undeveloped acres formed from uh
two uh
farms and it was a landscape full of
hillocks streams bounded by Wetlands
craggy Bedrock
outcroppings uh you've all walked it
you've stumbled on some things here and
there I think on those U on those lovely
walks through there as I have um this is
what it was like in 1900 when Ernest
Thompson Satan bought it and it was
ultimately transformed into Satan
version of a gentleman's
estate Satan was a ruggedly
handsome
Outdoorsman illustrator and
rur when he moved to America in
1896 he had been living in
Canada and while he was in Canada he
worked out in
Manitoba and became very enamored of
wolves and the wildlife and so forth out
in Manitoba and he brought that love of
the outside and nature with him when he
came to Kasa he arrived with his um
wife a wealthy um
American uh and he was well known
already at that time for his animal
stories he had written his first book
wild animals I have
known and he was
part of an elite group of writers who
could actually support himself and
support himself very well with his
writing uh magazine articles and books
this was an extremely popular
book
um there is a quote that his a a Critic
at the time when this book came out
wrote not only a naturalist and an
animal artist of very high attainments
but is a master of a literary style that
is at once graphic and fascinating
though doubtless much of the charms of
the book is due to his sympathetic love
of the wild animals and I think that
comes across every time you read any of
his
Works um Now by
1900 Satan had earned enough money and
he and his wife and that's his wife's
name on the deed map there gray
sceleton uh and he found this property
because he loved its
wildness and people who went property
shopping with him noted that his
excitement was in the fact that it was
so wild that he could Envision the
animals and and the cragginess and and
the reason you probably love it
too um he earlier in 1800 oh I'm talking
about the greatest States
okay I want you to
know that the great States was already
here because Montgomery pinea was a
great estate right we had some on North
Palmer just over the mananas river also
so Satan was already as part of the
Great EST States when he came in at
1900 the Montgomery Pine Edom used to
have an 18 Mansion 18 room mansion um
there it had uh Barns and uh all kinds
of support animals and so forth so uh
Satan was moving right into that
area Satan christened his new cab estate
windig now he says that when he told
everyone that windigo was named for his
British
Scottish always back and forth British
or Scottish um
ancestors now he often claimed to have a
connection with a
um royal family or lineage we don't know
if that was ever documented and we don't
know how uh secure that was but he often
used that other houses he had later on
he also named for these British
ancestors
now Wendy
ghoul uh was reached by a driveway a
quarter of a mile uphill driveway not
from where you see the driveway today
but uh originally all the way at the
very southern
end now you see these lovely um Gates
and
um this the gates and the gate post and
the rod
iron keep that in
mind now um he built the house along his
own design plans it's not
necessarily
um a fabulous architectural
design but it's his combination
of seatan style u boxy frames boxy rooms
um terracotta roof um it was his own
design and and because we have no record
of who designed
it it was only a family home was only
one part of his facet of
transformation he also designed and
Damned a brook to create the pond he um
added folies around the house around the
grounds um he had the a root cellar put
in we don't know there's your there's
your U Folly Springhouse folly
he also put in
um Al also brought in lots of animals to
help
um populate the area he brought in he
imported squirrels we can hardly imagine
why you would import squirrels but we
have enough but he brought in squirrels
otter Fox water file
peacocks and over a hundred
skunks he was doing some cross breeding
experiments with skunks
and so um that was very interesting uh
now if you look back on the Gate of the
house keep this gate in mind uh Satan
built the gate and all the walls around
the property because he didn't like the
local kids coming in and killing the
small animals he felt you should live
with nature and of course the small
young boys were were used to being able
to walk onto that property and kill the
squirrels or the rabbits I mean that was
their childhood activity and he said no no you can't do that so he kept
that's the reason he put up the wall but
that didn't keep the boys from being
very angry and then they put lwd uh
graffiti and terrible signs on his Gates
and around the walls so instead of going
to the uh local police Poli and
complaining what he did is he went to
the costop
school because his theory was
that not one boy in a thousand is born
bad bad boys have Badness thrust upon
them okay so he's thinking okay I can do
this I can help these boys so he talked
to them it was about the Easter of
1902 and he invited them to come and
spend the weekend on his
property and they had a hoot and a half
they enjoyed it there are some wonderful
oral oral history about these young boys
and what they had fun doing while on the
property with Ernest Thompson
Sean they let me see if I I want to make
sure I get this they had days and nights
filled with learning about indigenous
folklore camping tp's environmental
stewardship canoeing on the pond and
learning the sport of archery and woven
into these fun group activities with
principles of living
immorality this was wonderful for them
it's what was important to Ernest
Thompson
Satan and it went on and on for this is
the young this is the man who gave this
picture to the Greenwich oral history um
it was quite fun for them I think
situated up high on the wendou property
Satan and his he called him the
Woodcraft Indians created a permanent
ceremonial
Center a large it was two large stones
that he set up um perpendicular using
cement which I don't think was original
indigenous cement but he put them up
together and uh you can still go and uh
find it today this medicine rock is
still intact and it's on the trail now
Satan wrote articles on how he worked
with these young boys and it's published
in the Ladies Home
Journal and these articles
became kind of his uh subsequent book on
the Woodcraft and this is what he pulled
together um as a of how he was setting
up this Woodcraft Indians now what
happened was um while Satan was in
England on a speaking tour he met
Colonel Robert pton Powell now Robert
Payton Powell was a soldier a retired
Soldier he had been in the bore war and
he had an idea of how to teach scouting
because he had been a scout in the war
so it was his idea to do scouting for
boys that was in England and Satan met
with him and they exchanged papers and
so forth and so that's how the Woodcraft
Indians became part of the founding of
the Boy Scouts of
America um in 1910 Satan helped find uh
found excuse me the Boy Scouts of
America and he became the chief Scout
for the first five
years um he severed ties with the Boy
Scouts because they were um
including the use of guns and so forth
in the uh Boy Scouts and he did not
approve of that still trying to protect
the
animals um in
1912 the
seans sell windigo
to New York Finance year excuse me
Maurice work time it was for
$250,000 the most expensive real estate
transaction of the
time Ernest Satan Thompson eventually
moved to Santa Fe and lived until 1946
his daughter
Anna I'm sure all of you know this from
your childhood she was um the author of
many popular historical novels including
the winthrip woman which was partly uh
set in Old
grenwich now Maurice was a successful
investor of a very successful industrial
father industrialist
father um and he enjoyed Wendy ghoul in
ccob as a summer weekend
retreat
um I don't know if any of you know this
but in 1931 it burned had a very very bad fire there and when they
rebuilt it they got rid of the third
floor and uh the arcaded
porch but
um wor time was uh quite an impressive
man he was the founder and former
director of the New York theater Guild
an avid art
collector all now at the fog Museum in h
Harvard he was a champion chess player
he is credited with founding the
initiating the American Russian uh chess
battles uh foremost he served as
president of the American Jewish
committee and he was honorary Trustee of
the Federation of Jewish philanthropies
of New
York now over
time the the acreage
grew uh it was at this time that you see
here was 150 Acres this is a 1938
map and you can't it's very hard to tell
but up close you can see that it's
already divided into the Estates
separate Estates for the work times
daughters they had um uh three
daughters um and the property was
divided at that
time the um Ann langum Barbara tuckman
and
Josephine uh
pomerance now as noted on the two plaqu
installed on the windy
walls on June 7th 1942
Zionist uh and selected American Jewish
committee leaders met
informally at
wyou um and developed the ccob formula
that advocated unrestricted Jewish
immigrant
ation um to make organized and auton
autonomous Commonwealth the costop
formula caused a great deal of
controversy among the American Jewish
committee leadership and was
rejected uh only after World War II when
the full extent of the Holocaust became
known and no no refuge was found for its
survivors did the dissenting factions
join in an effort to establish a Jewish
State Maurice uh werheim died in 1950 at
the age of 62 but his children and
grandchildren have carried
on his legacy and also Satan's Legacy
that's all about caring and
stewardship Josephine W
time pomerance Josephine wor pomerans
spearheaded efforts for nuclear arms
control as founder head of the committee
for World development and World
disarmament she later helped lead the
non-governmental committee on
disarmament a group that played a major
role in promoting disarmament at the UN
W times's daughter Barbara tuckman
two-time Pulitzer prize-winning
historian grew up and continued to live
in ccob on a part-time
basis there is the claim that Barbara
tuckman is the one woman who unwittingly
taught JFK
strategy after reading her guns of
August Jack Kennedy bought dozens and
dozens of copies of the
book and he considered it such an
insightful examination of what led up to
World War I that he distributed it to US military leaders
with the command read it Kennedy
credited the insights gain from
tuckman's book to have been very
instrumental in settling the Cuban
Missile
Crisis Barbara tuckman had three
daughters Jessica Lucy and
Elma barbera's writing Studio or cabin
still stands on the 43 acre Alman
tuckman parcel at the southern limit of
the outside the Sean worktime party
Jessica excuse me Jessica tuckman
Matthews at one time was director of
global issues for the National Security
Council she is a recognized American
International Affairs expert with a
focus on climate and energy defense and
Security nuclear weapons and conflict
and
governance now RI
pomerance Josephine son is an American
environmentalist he is a distinguished
senior Arctic policy fellow of the
woodwell climate Research Center since
the late 1970s he has played a key role
in ra raising awareness of the risk of
climate change in US government
policy until
2001 Satan's Wendy ghoul was a
functioning residential home the town of
granch IR ired the property
approximately 75 Acres the town with
much public input and
consideration stabilize the historic
resources for the
future today the remaining stone walls
outline the first story of the original
windy
gou all of us are currently in the
process of considering the best path for
the future for the public and the varied
resources how do we care for preserve
celebrate and enjoy this historical and
natural
treasure thanks
Cey and that all leads us to the site
today so it has this incredible Rich
history and there's remnants of that
physically all throughout the landscape
which is what makes the Pomer and
tuckman site so interesting to explore
so I'm going to go through some of the
existing uh features that a visitor
nowadays uh experiences when you come to this park it's as we said uh it's set
aside for Passive Recreation that was um
the goal that was achieved in 2001 when
the palmerin parcel was first bought the
park today offers
um hiking trails or probably the the
main feature all throughout its acreage
there's a parking area off of orchards
Street um there's signage that orients
visitors right off of that parking area
and restrooms not far from there in the
center of the park uh at the pond which
you can see on in the middle of the map
there there's um a dam which affords
Waterfront uh access uh fishing is
allowed boating is not allowed there
isn't really access to to bring a boat
to the interior of the park and then the
rest of it is Earth Earth and trails
used for hiking jogging and dog walking
so the two main points of arrival that
are somewhat formalized are the Orchard
Street parking lot which has that
signage kiosk with the map on the left
and then on the right there's a more
modest signage kiosk welcoming people
from the Bible Street
playground there's also informal access
from um the Montgomery Pine nedum that
just sort of weaves its way into the
pomerat and tuckman parcels and as I
described there's the the parking area
the next few slides you'll see where we
are on the map with these photos with
the little yellow circle on the map
that's going to move around so over here
is the Bible Street
entrance there's um a few former
driveways which are paved with asphalt
um and there's stone dust Paving along
the dam and then the remainder of the
site is access
by informal packed Earth uh hiking
trails there's one place where there's a
wooden Boardwalk crossing a wetland in
the north crossing over Brothers Brook
and there's a little bit of directional
signage throughout the park not a ton
there's um some Blaze Trails so a bit of
um organization to keep people oriented
while while walking here there's a rest
one restroom not far from the parking
area
this is that Folly that CC was telling
us about constructed back during the
Great EST States
era these are basically decorative
structures built to make the landscape
look almost more historic than it was at
the time but now even the Great Mansion
is a
Folly this is the dam this is kind of
one of the most of the sit's forested
the dam is the place where it opens up
to to a wider Vista um you get out into
the sun
spend time by the
water the um house up on the west side
of the pond was a more modern house that
was um occupied I think by the the
pomerans family and when the town
acquired this property in 2001 part of
the um recommendations that the
committee put together were to find a
nonprofit who could uh lease this house
that wouldn't be incompatible with the
rest of the property prop use as a park
so there's a a nonprofit abelis is a
organization that assists people living
with disabilities and they there's uh
people who live here and uh stay here
during the day and it's um compatible it
seems to be compatible with the uses of the site and it's a good use for that
house so that that part's a little bit
off limits to the public um the so on
the other side across from that from the
pond is this Sunken Garden back from SE
era which has no special attention
brought to it it's off of one of the
formalized trails you just sort of
stumble upon it if you're walking um a
little bit off Trail but it's kind of an
interesting place with its retaining
walls and it's terracing uh despite
overgrowth it still kind of reads like a
garden whereas up on top of the hill the
windy ghoul Mansion ruins have been
purposely curated by the town uh um The
Mansion was becoming dilapidated and
posed a lot of risks and um was falling
into disrepair so it was decided I think
it was back in 2014 to selectively
demolish the house but leave the rugged
intact Stone first floor so now it it
provides this kind of interesting ruin
that is surrounded by a mowed lawn up on
the top of the hill that really centers
the site's history kind of in the middle
of the park and flanking it are a couple
of overlooks to the East and to the West
which um at times can be overgrown with
vegetation that kind of blocks the
views there's a boardwalk that um spans
between the two hilltops at sedan's
former
mansion and this leads over one of the paths down in the woods over to the
um former swimming pool of windy ghoul
which has since been filled in but its
Stone Terraces and stairs are still
there semi intact in the woods overgrown
with invasive Vines and Plants and
Things there's a lot of cor we'll talk
about this in a moment a lot of
residential garden plants that sort of
became established in the woods because
of its history as a overgrown you know
former Mansion site there's this
interesting feature down here associated
with Wy ghoul The Root Cellar on the
hillside coming down from Windy ghoul
down in the woods and that's just you
can walk right into it it's just kind of
left in an unaltered State a bit of
graffiti in there
today um and cor is going to talk a bit
about the existing ecological conditions
on the
site hello okay uh so yeah as Dan
mentioned uh a site visit was conducted
in early September that focused on
reviewing the ecological details
characteristics of the park the map on
screen was put together based on these
characteristics that we observed um most
of these characteristics are influenced
namely from geography much of this park
is either high and Rocky or wet and low
and that therefore then influences what
vegetation you have growing throughout
the park um over story and under story
vegetation um so much of the vegetation
that we observed on site is fairly
typical of a southern New England Forest
a lot of the dominant trees included
American Beach Red Oak red maple Norway
maple which is invasive um but uh one
big characteristic is the tulip trees we
um we observed quite a few um large
tulip stands on the property um tulip poplar it's the same species with
different names um is has quite a large
range um but if you're looking at just
New England it's mostly concentrated in
Southern New England so Connecticut
Massachusetts Rhode Island so it's
fairly um it's more common in our lower
States um another feature that we were
looking for was Wetlands um before going
out to the site we were um we conducted
desktop surveys to kind of see where
Wetlands had been formally mapped
looking at hydric soils and then going
out to those parts of the park and
seeing if the desktop survey was
confirmed um by on-site
investigations um no formal delineations
were conducted it was mostly kind of
just observ quick quick observations of
soil and looking at signs of um
hydrology and Wetland
vegetation um these are some examples
the lawn behind the um restrooms near
the main parking area is a notable wet
area there's also areas along trails
that are quite notable we found some
areas that had not been formerly mapped
that appeared to be additional Wetlands
on property as
well um another feature that people are
probably familiar with if you've been to
the park is the meadow there's a trail
that leads from The Root Cellar up and
around the meadow um Meadows are could
be a Meadows are a fairly unique habitat
um typically when you find a meadow you
develop it because it's flat and it's
there's not much to get rid of but
Meadows also make for important habitats
not just pollinators but also a lot of
native birds will um use Meadows for
nesting and for cover habitat um there
are we found evidence of what look to be
quite a few invasives in the meadow I'll
get deeper into invasives in a later
slide but and also what looks to be
evidence of encroachment from trees that
are encroaching on the meadow from the
sides and also trees and invasives that
are growing up um within the meadow
itself but that is typical um it's
common for habitats to shift and change
typically if you want to keep a meadow a
meadow that means you would need to
maintain it as a
meadow and here we are sorry um
invasives everyone's favorite topic um
as Dan mentioned before um with the
previous history of the site being
homesteads being um uh big Estates it's
common to have invasives sites with a
lot of previous disturbance it's easy
for invasives to establish themselves a
lot of these many of you here are
probably familiar with youve probably
seen them in your own backyards tree of
Heaven is a common one um Japanese
Barberry is a very common one um spotter
Lantern fly has gotten a lot of
attention in recent years uh Beach Leaf
Disease is becoming a growing problem in
Connecticut and much of the rest of the
country um Japanese silk um Japanese
silk grass many of the invasives that we
observe though were mostly concentrated
along the trail edges rather than within
the park interior that does make sense
where you have most of the activity most
of the movement of people it's easier
for invasives to establish and move
around with AIDS with the AIDS of
um people moving
around so to start to summarize all of
the the background information that we
were looking into we're going to talk
about challenges and opportunities at at
this unique site so cor was just talking
about in invasive uh you know plant
diseases invasive plant
species um in addition to some of the
ones cor mentioned there's um you know
jumping worms or a newcomer to the area
that affects the soil there's there's a
host of of challenges that that are
typical to a large property like
this um there's impacts of foot traffic
on Trails which is ongoing we talked
about that at the beginning one of the
slides cor shared shows where you have
ponding in a trail people tend to walk
around it to avoid that and then that
causes the trail to get wider and wider so that gets into you know m
maintenance and uh planning of where
Trails go it's a one one of the great
uses of the park is it's well used for
walking dogs but with that comes um the
need to pick up dog waste and that
that's often cited as a challenge um and
then just general ongoing maintenance of
trails trees and structures on the site
so some some images of some of those
challenges uh Trail erosion is a common
one again not unique to this site but
this site has you know a few instances
where the clear space where foot traffic
goes is also where water flows as it
makes its way downhill and that scourers
and causes
damage and of course there's loads of
opportunities for a site as unique as
this as we've been over it's not just a
woodland it's a woodland that's full of
uh remnants of greenwich's
History there's
a diverse Forest composition mix of
species there's Scenic diverse
Landscapes it it's a very interesting
place to walk
through for that reason um including
Meadow the meadow itself has the
potential for enhancement as as a
pollinator habitat it serves that role
already but there's there's further
opportunity
there um thinking larger in scale the site's walking distance from a lot
of people's homes it's connected to the
neighborhood and the other neighborhood
parks there could be potential for
additional signage whether that's
historic ecological educational trail
maps this gets into the the content of
what we'll
discuss um the rest the rest of the the
evening so what we're planning to do is
we'll turn it around to all of you and
we'll um spend some time together um
having some kind of question an answer
discussion time it's open-ended you know
we haven't started drafting
recommendations for this plan yet but um
the goal as I think you can probably
tell from the presentation so far is
we're not trying to reinvent the wheel
here with the Palmer and tuckman site I
think we probably all agree that it's well used uh as a site for Passive
Recreation and provides a valuable
resource and the goal is probably
finding out how to Steward it and
protect it so it can Contin continue to
serve as that resource that seems to be
so well
valued so that's yeah so we'll just open
it up and I'm just for the sake of
anybody who's watching on Zoom because
this is being
recorded um since you all don't have
microphones as a formality I'm going to
do my best to repeat the questions that
you each say go
ahead
maybe on Greg do you want to speak to
that the question was um what is the
status of current maintenance at the
park yes so the current maintenance is
we're as a department parks department
and with volunteer groups are removing
invasives uh planting native trees and
plants and shrubs and perennials working
in the meadow so there is work being
done but we're looking for this project
and this master plan to cohes ofy all
the work and and and set some priorities
and sort of you know produce the road
map to achieve all the goals we're doing
now and other goals as well so there is
maintenance and work happening in the
park but we're looking for this to
really
highlight what it is we want to do and
collectively and but also um you know
maybe even help set some timelines and also you know request extra funding
or capital projects or you know maybe go
for Grants to help support some of these projects as we have them spelled
out in the master
plan go
ahead my
name
and I want say that we up this
place I mean minimum we want to see it
maintained maintain really well this
year I don't know what happened but all
these trees are growing usually they
andow the hill all these trees are
growing all those um but my main concern
was you know in your letter you said
we're concerned about traffic and
eological
degradation and yet some of the ideas in
the survey would only
increase bike trails
dog Recreation these are things that I
totally against
idea I know
my thank
you I'm going to assume that the
Applause generally signifies
agreement um just for the sake of those
who couldn't hear um the the comment was
we love the park the way it is it's
valuable resource and some of the um
options that were floated in the online
survey including bike paths dog parks
represent too high a level of active
Recreation and we want to maintain that
passive use that it currently has and
the focus in that case would be keeping
up with what we already love making sure
it can continue to to offer essentially
the same program it currently
does note down the
Applause
yes hi my name is Art Shermer I'm living
in the area
for about 18 years I spent time there at
least two three times a week I love this
area it's a major reason I actually both
brage I'm a very active person I do like
bicycling and so on but I am in
agreement this is an oasis the quiet
areas of whatever bicycling or something
like that is okay but it has to be a
separated clear area because hiking dogs
scrollers and bicycles
you can have like disorder and so on so
this is certainly something to wrestle
with right um I would encourage you to
think winter and summertime I don't
quite understand why you cannot have a
skating rink or something like that
because we don't have enough skating in
greenage snowshoeing is wonderful in
Winter an observation I have is the
trail sign isues are not very good
there's no distances so somebody doesn't
know
one mile Gentle Family Walk Five Mile
more sporty type of Trail it goes a bit
to a bigger point the town of Greenwich
somehow is not capable of doing a mobile
app that would have a map because if we
didn't it all together right we could
get this on our devices then we don't
need to do so much signage because we
can bring it along I am for signage in
the park particularly if you have out of
town visitors that are not familiar the
area and so on that could help I would
ask you as our consultants and so on to
consider a few
things I'd like to really understand who
uses that Park the most suspect it's
very nearby I see a lot of FO traffic
there's not really so so many cars most
cars have Conneticut plates cob is a
large part of brage unfortunately it
does not have an active current
neighborhood association which is a
disadvantage
I don't know whether there's the friends
of pman and park but I would encourage
you to seek a little bit like who is
involved we have various Representatives
here from tree conver Conservancy byro
you represent sustainability committee
and some others so there's a lot of
expertise in in this room I do have a
crazy Visionary type of idea we have a
water water flow problem in
Greenwich and I'd like to see something
like small Lake whichever we're want to
call it Omar because we need to redirect
water we have water issues everywhere
ppw has looked left and right Mr Kramer
it's not easy we have huge challenges
but we cannot defer into the
future there is a possibility to have
some sort of a drought Reserve to do
this in an aesthetical way with nice
daming or walking things and so on so
that peacefulness can be preserved but
we need to deal better with water too
complicated to expensive is not an
answer we need to make progress and
think differently doesn't have to be
pumps and pipes maybe it could be a
beautiful Aqueduct or something so let's
also think about the water issues around
please and the other thing is I don't
see too many people in here sorry I'm 63
years old I'm an old fart okay but I
don't see too many families with pits
here people's in their 20 and 30 we have
a lot of newcomers to town especially in
cost please do a Saturday morning
meeting at the costop library where the
families with the strollers and the dogs
can come by please spend the extra time
to come and seek for feedback thank you
so much for your work I really
appreciate it thank you
uh and once again I'll I'll respond to a
few of those things um assuming not
everyone who would listen in later hears
uh the comments
included um when multi-season
opportunities uh should be looked at uh
potentially skating um Trail signage
There's an opportunity there a Mobile
app could help greatly with that to
further enhanced
signage um more involvement in the
neighborhood could help though there is
the friends of uh the park organization
already the water flow problem um there was a study done who was the
consultant um there was a study done a
few years ago that looked at possible
sites in Greenwich for for flood
mitigation and this they did a chapter
on on this site looking into the
feasibility of that no progress there's
been no progress since it you say need
to continue to work that their
recommendations were very very general I
looked through it and it didn't really
say here's what you would engineer
here's what you would do it was kind of
okay for further study I don't want to
speak too much but it all leads to no
action which is not acceptable it's
2023 yeah so we'll we'll we'll note that
down um and then yeah further public
Outreach for this project I think that is a great suggestion any
strategies to reach the broadest
audience possible a Saturday morning
meeting at the library could be a good
idea for the next meeting so we still
have to plan that one yes go ahead
hi my name is Lindsay and I'm the
director of the CER and very much wanted
to thank you all this process and this
meeting and
having um obviously the pum and the
comand properties are backyard the home
for the grenwich Botanical center and
point we also don't want to see much
change and that is primarily because he it is a laboratory for we are
able to reach many many children we have
uh we're in sh experience for the all
entire third grade BR Public Schools we
also do many field for the first grade
and we're reaching out to many other
schools to offer our property and
programs um to the school to learn
abouty dant caty water Etc we also have
onsite programming for uh for children
and nature Emer program called Forest so
the fact that this amazing Place offers
an environment in which to do all of
those things and reach the families and
the children and our communi is hugely valuable so um I'm just going to
put that plug in and we would also very
much be happy to host a meeting atan
Center and I would also be very happy to
Rally all of our families in support of
uh the vision for
the thank
[Applause]
you yeah yep uh guys we do apologize we
uh were supposed to have the mobile
microphone for the podium we did not
have that set up but um we do want to
hear your comments we want to capture it
accurately so one of our thoughts is we
have that far right microphone next to
uh Dr Kramer over there we could turn
that microphone on if you guys feel
comfortable speaking directly in there
so we can have everybody on zoom and on
the recording hear your comments because
we just want to make sure that we
accurately uh present that so if that's
uh comfortable with you guys we can get
that set up over on the far right uh
side of the microphone right
there all right thank you yeah don't be afraid to step up to the
microphone go
ahead
yeah well I I can recap it too if you
yeah yeah there there seems to be
agreement I mean the comment was that
uh dog walking is currently a highly
valued use of the park and for any uh
plan going forward to continue to
include that and and not further limit
um walking dogs on the
Park
goe stat from
first says over years AG when
I
went thank you so that was that was a
pilot program that allowed dogs where
exactly I didn't I just didn't catch
that part I didn't hear you sorry
um just that there was a pilot plan when
he was on years ago because there
was in
and program and never
Chang oh I see I see so basically the
use of the park today which does allow
walking dogs on the park was piloted 20
years ago that was considered successful
and then it has never changed it was
basically it was
instituted
okay
it's
thank yes
thanks I saw this hand first I think my
name is Tom kill I love thank you for
what you've done so
faral way it is CC I appreciated your
history and I think that the one thing
that I would love to see is that on the
in the hill on the hill at the sou part
of the park you can see the the house
where bar talk yeah right there like a
going up just barely see it I would love
there to be some sort
of really remarkable that this woman in
the woods of kasav wrote books that
arguably
Sol is just amazing and I just feel like
it's not recognized at all I always tell
people when I'm there like that be black
well it's not actually on the property
you can just see it so you see it on the
yeah it's on the
that that's that's exactly it
yeah yeah so the the the comment uh was
the writer Cottage where Barbara tuckman
wrote her famous books should be should attention be brought to it
currently that structure is just off the
town-owned property it's located on the
privately owned parcel of one of Barbara
tuckman's daughters who still lives on
the property so um I guess all I can
really say is just currently it's not
owned or controlled by by the town and I suppose um any sort
of point out it's up there you wouldn't
even know
that yeah you know and I agree it's a
fascinating structure and I think that
it would it would have to be done in
coordination with the person who owns
that land to make sure it was done
appropriately if if so go
ahead so the the the comment was that
the the owner of that property has um
had to struggle with vandalism an upkeep
of that structure in the past and we
want to make sure we're being the best
neighbor
possible you raised your hand a while
ago I
thinks
another I've
been there any fall off
um thank you for that comment yeah the comment was um first additional
support of walking dogs on the property
and secondly attention to the raised
Boardwalk that has gaps in between the
rails that are probably out of
Regulation and should be addressed as
soon as possible to for
safety go
ahead yes please yeah that that'd be
great yeah go to the far right one just
because we have the zoom here I don't
want so good evening folks uh my name is
James hello oh okay good evening folks
um just wanted to say as maybe one of
the younger family oriented individuals
in the room here uh so we have two young
daughters um we're we're a dog loving
family we use this park a lot and um the
survey concerned me just uh you know
kind of some of the questions and how
they were asked so so a few things I
want to get out there one I think really
all the park needs is some TLC right you
need better signage um you need uh you
know directional signage Maps be it
online or print um you know maybe a you
know when you enter you also need I
think one of the things that was a big
worry was the whole parking um I think
the parking is fine as it is uh you know
maybe better advertising that you can
park on Bible Street you know in the
large parking lot there I feel like
that's kind of a back entrance to the
park that many don't know of as an
option of parking um unless you're really uh you know in the weeds
in the area to say but um you know
besides Trail maintenance uh you know
and and mowing the meadow now and again
to kind of keep it and also preserving
those historic structures you talked
about right to to young kids that's it's
a Whimsical area you know I think one of
the questions talked about getting rid
of the bridge right that bridge is kind
of phenomenal when you're a young kid
you can go over run around come down and
underneath it right and uh the the
little Stone House that you guys had up
in your slid before I think these are
all things that make this property
unique um you know to families to
Children um and it's also uh just great
to get out there and walk with your dog
right um and I see dogs using the park
all the time uh you know winter spring
summer and fall so I would ask please no
additional pavement um in the park right
no additional parking spaces um I I
think we're we're kind of good good
there um but you know just just maintain
it right right give it that TLC it needs
give it the better signage um uh so
individuals can enjoy it more maybe a
historic note or two about uh you know
more about the park as a whole and the
property as a whole but it's so well
connected with ccob um and with the uh
you know the school next door with the
garden center um you know next door uh
that it would be a shame to turn it into
a more active use area or to pave it
over uh with a larger uh parking lot I
think you know keep it the way it is
give it some TLC and that'll be it will
be a great use you know for generations
to come thank you thank
you been walking this park since I was
seven and over that time I absolutely
love that at least one pavement became
lawn again um so this is a space that
has been fantastic at being the
environment and for many of the school
groups many of the people in this area
this is the pressure valve forgetting to
still be in this area uh paper trail
maps I hike extensively these QR codes
great there is not cellular reception
for most of this park I am unofficial
Lorax guide um you know Trail
maintenance person I haul as big a thing
as I can haul off these Trails uh but
there are many people who do get turned
around in the space but these little QR
codes aren't going to help for this
particular spot given the geology of
this particular spot um unless you're
way up on the Hills so post storm not
just volunteer citizen but just the
trails themselves the existing Trails
getting the huge stuff off when the
trees just fall lengthwise down the
favorite Trail and it takes years for
that tree to rot before it's cut up um
so just the actual trails that people
want to stay on uh and can't you know
just collectively get everything off
because sometimes you do need Machinery
to get some of the bigger logs off but
otherwise echoing what everyone else has
said is that it is special because it is
what it currently
is yes go
ahead that's okay I'll repeat
it
stairs
then
thank you the the comments were uh about
after
um it was you seeing after storms Fallen
trees or is that the previous comment
I'm looking at my notes I apologize the
fish ladder was the first comment um
could there be a way for you you know
where there's a change in elevation in a
Waterway to have a way for migrating
fish to come up an elevation with a fish
lad or eels and the stairs from the
ruins to um clean those up and make them
safe and usable and was the program was
called Forest
days okay yeah I don't I I haven't
learned about that
I they they used to have an awesome um
teaching area that um the the commenter
wishes could remain in
place go ahead hi um I'm s i right on
the edge so I
my so but my question is really about me
because it is a little scary I've been
um in town for 30 years on the pum and
every time after the storm it really
looks different and I do get concerned
that there are trees that are about to
fall the trail and you guys have been
very responsive by email the town and
people called me where is that spot and
you found
but what is the current maintenance
programs so the question was what is the
maintenance program in place currently
with regard to dangerous and Fallen
trees um in the pum but I assume in the
pommer and tuckman site as well um maybe
Greg do you want to answer that sure I can answer that yeah if there's
something that's precarious or dangerous
certainly you know send me an email um
or let staff know and we'll take a look
at it we don't
as as a ecological reason go around and
remove dead trees or snags unless
they're really close to a trail or or
seem to be dangerous only because dead
Deadwood is int it's it's so intricate
to their survival in the Ecology of the
woodlands you have various species that
only live in Deadwood so to remove dead
trees excuse me if they're not a hazard
is really um eliminating a very
important part of the ecological uh
component of the woods so so again it's
really on a case-by Case basis um if you
see something that you know just kind of
stands out to you certainly let us know
well we'll take a look at it and make
that that determination
absolutely uh yes the microphone
now my oh you may have to turn your
little red button on got my red button
on um I'm a neighbor to the pomarance uh
property we live right along brother
Brook and I think it it needs to be uh
mentioned that part of the experience of
the park is destroyed uh on the weekends
in Winter uh beginning this next weekend
the ski shooting from the um Country
Club the Greenwich Country Club will
commence uh at 10: in the morning and
persist through 400 p.m. uh Saturday and
Sunday
and it's heard throughout the park and
throughout the neighborhood and I I I
don't know what we can do about it uh
within this master plan but it is part
of the experience of that Park and it
needs to be
noted thank
you
yes
I'm Pete Yuri and I've lived in town
about 50
years and my wife and I use the pomin
tuckman and pine edum property at least
once a week probably twice a week and
it's
marvelous it's marvelous
because it is still virtually untouched
Woodlands that's not to say that in the
presentation we heard this evening that
there
are I don't want hotpots let's call them
that which can be
very
entertaining or fun or
educational for someone visiting the
park I I think the sunken garden is a
good example of
that I think the ruin is an example of
that I think the history of Mr seatan is
interesting to highlight and have some
information
about on the other
hand I think there's a real danger if
you do too
much
now but I learned because I was involved
with the master planning for Benny Park
that you can make a plan not only for
what to do
currently but also for the
future and you can not necessarily have
to
execute and I'm sure if Mr ceciliano is
in the room there's probably a budget
issue that will go along with that too
that may actually prompt something not
to happen in in the immediate
future but the message there is allow
the ideas that go into the master plan
to reflect not only what all of us you
be everyone else wants to have happen in
the short range and I share that feeling
let's get it looking a little better
let's improve the sunen
garden but then set some priorities for
what this open space
will do to serve our community 10 15 20
years from now the beauty of Benny Park
90 years old is that it still has as
part of its five
sections about a 10 acre untouched
Woodland from say
1930 and if I ask how many people knew
this to raise their
hand how many hands would go up any
kitchel well maybe 15% of
you and it's right there in the middle
of old grenage it's a wonderful resource
untouched open
space thank you for the comment it it
reminds me of a question that I think
we're going to be looking at as we get
into um
the the master plan recommendations I
think we're hearing a lot of over and
over we we love the park the way it is
we don't want it to we don't want to
lose this resource we don't want to
change it and we're going to probably
start zeroing in on okay how do we best
Steward what's there today and one of
those questions that maybe is a little
more nuanced is how best to showcase the
site's history specifically like there's
ruins where there's weeds growing over
them do we clear those weeds away do we bring a formalized path to more of
those ruins do we put educational
signage on more of those do we put uh
more of like commemorative plaqu on them
do we leave them completely alone and
have them as sort of features you
discover that are overgrown that whether
to clear weeds away gets into the
invasive species management question too
if there's a plant that ought not be in
the park for the sake of the native
ecosystem you're kind of clearing out
the historic ruin while you're at it so
they can be a little bit interrelated
but
finding an appropriate strategy for
celebrating the fact that this site has
such unique history and it has these
physical ruins that can deteriorate they
can become overgrown do we want to bring
more attention to those and if so how
that that's that's kind of the the level
of detail we may find ourselves zeroing
in on with that particular
topic so this hand first
yeah I mainly came here because of
dogging I think see that
CH dogs over there
years um and it sounds like I'm in
agreement with most here if you came
there in the
morning 75% of the cars
par I mean yeah 7% they would have dogs
only
25% but way it is used
now somebody else just mentioned another
thing that's what the or what not but
when you come out of that
car go left you can
hard there's one big tree in the that
there's an awful lot of bushes
to I got to admit I went home one day
and I almost felt whack I got
Myers out
there problems
with I work in La was in this 31 years
and I
never
there never there once
remember they pick up after themselves
90%
I my fo on the grass but that's rare
really
take I'm glad to see that most
people thank
[Applause]
you the the the comment was further
agreement that uh dog walking needs to
remain uh un unsed with as is on the
site it's an extremely valuable use and
that there could be improvements made
for the visibility of cars turning out
of the or street parking lot because of
vegetation blocking the view of oncoming
cars and that uh in the uh gentleman's
experience there has not been um issues
of um kind of negative encounters
between dogs and users of the
park was there yeah go ahead yep it's
you
yep see a couple of walking friends that
I don't know who they are but I've seen
them I live on Montgomery Lane
says you know it's completely different
Five Point with apologies
Gass and the well
AC Wellness woodiness it is is what feel
like breathing you know real
air
I've been working through through there
about six days a week for 20 years I
will say the uh the signage is issue I I
had person rescued one little girl
mother was did a run away i' I've
periodically steered people back to
where they think the might
possibly so I agree with the point
about this doesn't work on your
phone so I would be in favor
for
with
Arona I I do think um you know there so
many pass like primary second some of
them get kind of
swamp and and I would have objection to
making them pass withs like that I know
this also the with this small area next
to is also Cal s right which is owned by
the aut but basically connected through
the PO sanct all way through through
everything else and what they done the
PO they put you know kind of little
bridges over the areas and that's very
intermittent right I think one yeah
the my final point
is it's a shame that the the overlooks
don't really allow you to see the lake
most of the time there a lot of
overgrowth Tre or whatever I don't
whether it's native or not but it seems
to me when you're in elev position you
got the the ruins and everything the
park nice to be able to look down and
see the and my experience you really
can't see it very well obsc most the
time the elevation
El I don't see why you would open that
up final point you said something about
we put in more
access to notable sites I I personally
would like to see that i'
like thank
[Applause]
you um the the comments included uh
reinforcement of that agreements that
more physical way finding signage could
be useful QR codes won't be practical
due to reception here paths that get
swampy could benefit from boardwalks and
there's uh nearby examples where that's
done well and that the overlooks are
quite often overgrown with with the
views blocked and um the uh gentleman
feels uh formalized Pathways to the
ruins might not be um the the most
appropriate
treatment go ahead
my name's Bob Angelo born and raised
here in GRE right across from p park
spent a lot of time in there as a kid I
didn't shoot any animals in
there
every a warm day your high skip school
jump in the
lake a lot of fun in there um I'm on the
selectman's transportation task force
and my primary focus is SA riding for
young kids to try to get to school
safely so um you I know I'm I'm
certainly not advocating opening up the
park for bike riding but there's a main
uh main artery Trail there basically
from the lake that goes up to the mam
Road you know Montgomery Lane
back and multipurpose Trail normally
about 8 ft wide um there's uh different
substrates not not advocating mam not
baving not cutting down trees not moving
anything um we we would love the task
force would love to see some
consideration to feasibility of if that
one uh trail that links the lake to um
the road there near the Botanical center
could become a multi-purpose pass that
shared uh so that kids could basically
ride their bike to school to the new
Central Middle School and credit b b
kids are looking s in F Track is really
bad think people would use the park if
they could have family ride in there
basically
um yeah that's it there's there's
different substrates that you know that
drain that withstand weather um seen
them around basically and uh we'
appreciate just some consideration
to make
that
schoolf in that area
thank you thank
[Applause]
you okay then I'll summarize both
comments in winter
time oh that that route would be perfect
for losing in wintertime so the the the
comment was um could a uh suitable route
be found on one of the main artery
Trails through the park that would
connect uh with a more of a paved
multi-use trail treatment uh for
children biking to school uh I I as I
understood it kind of on a
North sorry sorry sorry as a landscape
architect when I think of compacted
stone dust I think of that as a a type
of pavement but not
[Laughter]
asphalt but more solid than Earth more
solid than just the packed Earth trails
that we have something kind of in
between is what you may be envisioning I
mean a multi-use trail can be paved with
asphalt and it becomes more durable and
I I want to add to that um is there a
need for a handicap accessible Trail
through here and would that double is
that say that basically I mean I think
the part of active transportation is
access for all users and you know
adaptive users uh with a safer you know
with a safer raid basically or just
safer substrate uh enjoy the part yeah
well when we um maybe after we're
finished together you could point out
the route you had in mind that sounded
fairly specific and we could talk about
that a little
further go ahead hi my name
ISO and I use
the I've also done a lot of
Hing with and without
dogs I would like
to pose for
consideration once
you um introduce bikes trail
system it can be difficult to
control to
use I have geered away from pking in my
because tax of mountain bikers not just
one or two and I'm a previous mountain
biker I love it but tax event bikers
come in from westest County because they
found the park online
and I'm there with a dog trying to
prevent the dog from being run over by
the bike and they don't you know go
along and FL they go along and very
fast um I would hate to see anything
like that happen to this gorgeous you
know Reserve
that thank you
[Applause]
so the comment was a concern that once
biking is introduced as a uh activity at
a park and the park starts to
accommodate that it can be discovered by
mountain bikers who can overuse the park
and make it less um usable for uh hikers
and and other other uses and so to be
cautious of
that
yes about five years
ago
off there several times and when I first
back I live for a while in California
which when I first back to it was many
times in the park I was really kind of
shocked that this particular town with
the resources and the wealth and the
intelligence that it has wasn't doing
take care of the car from the
perspective of the invasives
that just
like
not I think
this
toon allocate more resources to it and a
couple of people tonight people on the
Chanel haveed the word
terms of us taking care of the park I
would like there to be ace to the par as
there someone who really their
responsibility to take care of the park
Institute and implement the plan that we
all come up with and make sure that some
of the degradation that we're seeings
and the habitat and all that isn't taken
away and as much as possible I really
love it something that we don't have a
lot which is this
State um so from that point well I
definitely love that so many job owners
use the it's so great to walk there and
see everyone lots of people let their
dogs off Le and perspective of a
natural to maintain this as a natural
that's it also turns away some people
who don't like having for
them and I agree that
most every time I walk in there I see
not I see the little B ofg left on the
[Music]
trail so um yeah that's kind of the main
I really
we
and
this so much more than other places to
really take care of them and preserve
them for
children thank thank
you the comment was um to uh
continue aggressively tackling invasive
vegetation um could there be a steward
specifically for this park a a person
designated who ensures invasive species
are managed trails are maintained and
then the perspective that um while
walking dogs is a valuable use of the
par Park letting dogs off leash can turn
off people who aren't comfortable around
dogs can um stress the environment and
that dog waste uh being picked up needs
to be um done more diligently so it may
lead to um further infrastructure or or
attention emphasis being brought to
bring your dog here but do it properly
yeah
[Music]
r
know
there um that I
haveen are
not um the other thing is I think bags
that are around the
par I don't see a lot
of that was
thank you uh the the comments were um in
support of it was the perspective that
offleash um time for dogs is is valuable
and a space like this can provide that
opportunity for for dogs who who who
need that and um that it hasn't been an
issue in in this person's experience and
should be considered and that um dog
waste the dog waste issue can be
addressed by making cleanup easy for
people by providing more more
bins is this one
first
thats
are
and there are
many are not near
thank you U the comment was um the the
other perspective that this person has
had um bad encounters with dogs
including being bitten here has been
knocked over and that elderly people
they know have been afraid to to come
here because of the prospect of of dogs
being off leash and and jumping on them
and things like that
and
Y who I see next I think I think it was
you yeah go ahead
I lot of people love do but I think
this understanding BR that maybe you can
let your dog off I see it all the time
some not only not a problem but
occasionally dogs
aggressive used to have this huge
MGS around but not everybody is
responsible seems I see dogs up the
leash this part more of than any other
part and I think maybe not close
supervis understanding that probably
inform trouble personally I have time
but
Pati I right
there yeah thank you and and by the way
I'm
going um just to uh pause for a moment I
think we've kind of formally scheduled
ourselves between 6: to 8:00 P.M so
we're getting close to the end of our
time so the conversation can obviously
to go on and on and on and I want I just
want to make it known we're going to
hang out longer and be available to
speak kind of more on an informal basis
because I'm sure there's still going to
be additional questions and comments to
discuss um so you can speak to any any
of us on the project team at the end of
this and we'll hang out over there near
the maps U we we brought sticky notes
you can write comments down and stick
them right to the maps and there is the
online survey which is on the town's
website under the parks department page
and we've gotten a lot of survey
responses already and if you haven't
taken it please tell your friends and
family members and anyone who uses this
park to to take it and that has the
opportunity for open-ended responses as
well if you have additional comments
that don't fit the form of all of the
questions on there so I just wanted to
make sure that that was clear as since
we'll take a couple more questions here
but we're we're going to begin to wrap
up after maybe two or three more
questions I think I think I saw your
hand longer
ago I'm
justce and I just want appreciative
this coms
but take
questions love your
name far as ma um I just wanted to
celebrate the work of Darren and have
created a
map um it is posted on our website so
download
it
[Music]
fish it was they walked it all the way
up from um with the library
went and um
conion May more
than um
[Music]
I there he may get a tough winter this
season so um yeah I am a
lifelong um
and please come up me with any other
ideas
down thank
you and I think the dog issue is
complicated round
Applause
[Applause]
who was pregnant no idea at the time and
during the very rainy couple of days
like every single gear
pth the
G um but one thing I did want to mention
about the dogs it is actually law to
have your dog so that's why those are
very concerned about the um survey
question we spent a lot time talking
about how to phrase that question and I
think this team did a really good job of
handling
it so I think be a group that together
and talk about it to invol
he larger gr so I think it is
complicated and I know you're raising
your hand I know I just want to know how
do you get hold of board
of I'm not on the board of
I we
take
here yeah yeah yeah probably start
wrapping it up
iail we can send it I know we have Sur
but I
want part of we can kind of separate
that out and kind of have that as a
comment in the meeting speak for that
receive yeah yeah you're gonna respond
to those people who typed additional
comments with the email address I'll
just ask them to
email
conly com the meeting itself
okay all
right okay um I'll take I'm going to
sorry I'm
gonna there's two people that we have
not heard from at all yet that's a good
point we have not heard from the two of
you your two comments or questions will
be the final group wide ones and then we
are going to disperse and talk more
organically no pressure
yeah oh yeah yeah sorry Dan other Dan
has one comment first yes I I do want to
mention that I do know that we have a
couple of people that have raised their
hands um on the online Zoom option like
I said we are running out of time here
we do have other stuff on the agenda and
we want to take in time to consideration
with our um Consultants here so if you
guys do have any additional comments
that are related to this meeting please
send them to parks and trees at
Greenwich
c.gov with the pomerance tuckman public
meeting as the um as the headline for
that and we will forward those on to the
consultant GZA to get those recorded
within the meeting um I do know we have
as Dan reiterate we do have the survey
online TI for additional feedback but we
do want to make sure that I mean you
took the time out here to uh listen to
this so we want to have your comments on
record for this particular meeting so I
apologize for not getting to your
comments to those of you on Zoom or for
those in the audience but feel free to
um email us at that address and we will
get that incorporated into the comments
of this meeting all right thank
you okay yes go ahead people have
mentioned
stewardship and who would be stewards of
this and might even take a case from The
Playbook of the land trust who has
multiple lands all over place and has a
steward in a steward group for each
location so it's like a friends group
and so we could have the friends under
the direction of N St being the steward
it would work perfectly we've got it at
gr point point it's everything from
pulling down the invasive V to worrying
about making being on making the
observations and getting things
corrected and keeping the
place thank you uh yeah the comment was
uh in response to who would be the
steward of a property like this you have
examples such as the Greenwich Land
Trust which has a steward for each of
its locations and that could be where uh
the role of the the friends of pomerance
and tuckman could step in and do
something similar to Steward this
park and and the final the final comment
first of all I want to thank you for
having this public for educational
valuable
lot
um I and my dog are in that Park every
day my dog is there at least
twice and constantly amazed that 10et
after I walk into the park I he cars
barely here ples it's the G so I
encourage you to try keep it as much
like it is today in 15
years someone mentioned bags in the park
um and dogs that are disbehaving in the
park um I see a lot of other dog owners
here the dogs that are the problems the
people that don't pick up bags think are
the outliers I urge you not to make
decisions based on the vast minority of
people bags by the side of Trail I can
tell you Le once every week and a half I
walk out of the park five bed I away it
my mind that people will pick up Poe the
bag and leave it next to the trail for
someone your question I'm one of those
elves just to show that it's not unique
to the park when I walk to the park from
my house of
Valleywood once a month I see a PO bag
on some lawn on the street so it's not
unique to the par people do this is what
people do and they must have people pick
up for them at home that let them feel
this is way the world supposed to work
um I urge you also to keep B off trails
I don't I don't want to talk about kids
going to school on bikes I went to
school on
bike of high school and it's but I don't
go to Miami part because I've been
scared by bikes sing around the turn um
f than I do I just don't go there
besides not wondering my dog's going to
be bik I don't want to be so if you
could limit if you have bike access
these are limited to a
very
that's I thank you so that that that'll
be our final official comment which I'll
recap which is reiterated that dog
walking is a very valuable use of the
park it's a quiet Gem and should be kept
that way um to not make decisions based
on uh the the sort of problem dogs or
dog owners who are likely the outliers
and decisions not to be made solely on
that um and that spikes should be kept
off the trails uh other nearby parks
like the mananas Greenway mananas Park
are too unsafe due to mountain biking
and to take that into consideration so
thank you and um so thank you all for your comments for for listening to
all of the information we had to share
and then for engaging in this discussion
I I think everyone's in agreement that
it's it's a really valuable well-loved
space you're really lucky to have it in
town and I think we can all agree we
want to find the way to uh move forward
with uh keeping it the way it is uh and
since change is inevitable in in the
world just find ways to Steward this
site appropriately so it can continue to offer what what people love about it
with just the improvements that are
necessary to to continue to enable those
things um so like I said our our next
steps are we're going to start uh
working internally drafting
recommendations based on all of our
analysis we've been doing and the
feedback we're hearing the the public survey that's online which once
again is on the parks department website
on on the town of greenwich's website um
is going to be open until November 17th
so so please participate in that if you
have not already and spread the word
about it and uh we're going to be uh
capturing the results of those uh of the
survey responses and and formulating
recommendations for the master plan um
based on on what we Insight we glean
from that survey as well
um and the the next meeting which hasn't
been planned yet will be for us to share
preliminary initial thinking about
master plan recommendations to hear some
further feedback and discussion on those
things I I don't think that we'll be at
the stage where we share a draft master
plan publicly or anything like that I
think it's going to be kind of in the
midst of that process we'll share kind
of our initial thoughts publicly at a
forum um and then from there we'll wrap
up the master plan so that that that'll
be in the the coming months and and
you'll hear about that when that meeting
is planned so we'll stick around for for
a while longer and please uh stay if you
want and um you can come talk to any of
us and we'll be here for a little while
thank
you thank you everybody yeah we'll be
around so if you wanna if you want to
wait and have conversations I'll I'll be
here for a little bit myself and thank
you GZA team and and park
sta it's all
right
so
I