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Good morning, everyone,

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and welcome to our budget committee meeting of Wednesday, March 19th. It's so great to see everybody here in the gallery full. We'll call them meeting to order. And our land acknowledgment that the Halifax Regional Municipality is located in Megmagi, the ancestral and the traditional lands of the Megmaw people. The municipality acknowledges the peace and friendship treaties signed in this territory and recognizes that we are all treaty people.

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We will ask now for an approval of the minutes of February 12th and 19th of 2025,

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Councillor

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Harding. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye, raising your hand,

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as carried.

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Approval of the order of business and approval of the additions and deletions. Mr. Clerk, do we

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have any additions or deletions? There are no proposed changes to this agenda today from the clerk's

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office. Thank you. A call for declaration of conflict of interest.

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Seeing none, we can now move on to public participation.

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I'm

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not going to back in the comment.

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One of the best parts of the meeting and public participation, please keep your comments

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respectful on topic and directed to the chair.

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The clerk will announce when you have 30 seconds remaining and when your time is complete

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for all speakers.

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Any member of the public who is registered with the clerk's office on this matter is

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given five minutes to address the topic. When I call your name, you can come up to

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the microphone. After everyone on the list has been given an opportunity to speak, we

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will call three times. If there are any additional speakers, our first speaker, however, is

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Philip Frazier. The second is Duncan Robinson. And the third is Wendy Wilson. Mr. Frazier, welcome.

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down

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until I'm not looking down at you.

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Let me sit down, it'll be a little bit more contrast.

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And can I just before I start, I just have one comment

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before I get my five minutes, and it's really,

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it's about affordability and housing affordability.

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And again, excuse me, my name is Philip Fraser.

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Excuse me, sir, could you please start again?

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Thank you.

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My name is Philip Fraser, and I'm in the President's CEO

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of Kill and Apparentment Read.

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I'll save my last, I'll save what I was going to save to the very end.

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I'm here today to express my concern regarding the 2025-26 budget.

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And the impact on property tax increases on rental housing providers and residents.

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So today what you have in front of you is a budget of $1.3 billion.

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Five years ago, you approved a budget of $787 million.

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The last year was $1 billion, $1 billion, $1.3 billion, which is about a $260 million increase.

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From my point of view, as I look out, in terms of my properties, then I got 5,600 units in the city.

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I've got about 1,000 apartment and

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manufacturing home sites, and about 225,000 square feet of commercial.

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My five year change in my property taxes expenses is 24.8%.

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It's gone from $8.2 million in 2020 to what's estimated to be in this year, is $12,446,000.

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My water expense has gone from $2.9 million to $3.9 million, a change of 25% in the last five years.

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And my garbage collection has gone from $748,000 to $1,380,000,

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a 37% increase, and just to sort of add a little bit more color in detail to this,

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I've owned a property over in Dartmouth for 23 years, probably all familiar with it, like front.

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In January of 2022, I decided to put one of the programs of CMHC financing to make it affordable.

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And in return, I committed to 40% of that project over there to be affordable to be 30% below the average medium rent for the next 10 years.

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It's a 296 unit complex, it's 37 buildings, they used to be military housing.

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In 2020, my assessed value was 25 million point eight.

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In 21, it was 26.6, 22, 28.6, 23, 30.2, 24, 30, 30 million, 0.1.

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So where is this going?

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What do you think it is this year?

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$49 million, a 63% increase.

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My tax expense will go from $334,000 to $548,000.

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on the most affordable rents I have in the city.

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So when I look at it and I look at this budget, the first thing that sort of comes to my mind and finally I took the time to go through it, and I do have to compliment everybody as a counselor, the amount of energy it takes to read these budgets and to understand them completely.

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But then it finally breaks down, there's 126,000 single family units in HRM.

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In the two to three unit complex, there's 8,000 properties or 17,000 dwellings,

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2,460 apartment buildings, or 72,000 of it where I'm going is the cap.

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18, 17, 18 years ago, I thought it was a stupid idea.

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All it's done is basically bridge the gap and ship the burden from single family over two apartments and commercial.

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Today, we see that the value under the cap is $42 billion from the single family.

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Two to three units, $3.4 billion, the apartments, $13 billion.

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And when you look at the cap, and you see it, the delta, which have always been

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interested to find out what it is in terms of the assessment values from the PDSC of HRM is $105 billion this year.

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Under the cap is $63.6 billion, the total residential is $87 billion, so that delta is $23.4 billion.

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Equates to $261 million that you could potentially take from single-family homes on terms of property tax.

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Because your budget, 82% of it comes from property taxes, and 2024, it was $240 million.

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So, the average assessed value, $338, according to your budget, $3757 the average tax bill.

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Not paying, that delta works out to $1821 a year.

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So in that, I got 30 seconds, all those homes, you got about 10% every year that rolls and

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comes up to the market, where I live, basically I, because I'm there for 28 years in single

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family home, the new neighbors, ethnic store, double.

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So the bottom line is, well, I can't even get to my conclusions except it's not fair.

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The tax burden basically has been shifted over to the apartments in the commercial.

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And I just don't understand it.

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Thank you, Mr. Frazier.

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Mr. Frazier, if you would, Councilor Austin has a question for you.

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Thank you, Mr. Frazier. Don't go away. I got a question for you. Thank you. Thank you for

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coming in and sharing today. I mean, I know it takes time under your day to come and present.

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I was curious on the cap piece that you've talked about. This Council 2019, we passed a motion

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basically saying we'd like to get rid of the cap, phase it out, and the Nova Scotia Federation

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of Municipalities has been active on that. I haven't had a chance with someone like

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you right in front of me to ask, are you folks actively lobbying the province on this issue

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because this is one that municipalities and the province would love to change, but we have

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consistently not been able to get any political traction to do so. I'm just wondering

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through whether it's yourself or investment properties, what that has looked like on the private sector side.

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We've raised it, I know we have with politicians at the provincial level.

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But the reality is, it's like two parts, right?

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You control one part, they control the other.

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The whole idea of what assessments are.

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When you look at it, it's just a random sort of model they produce based on something else that's sort of next door.

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The reality is you have a budget that you want to spend, where do you get your revenue?

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You get it from, basically, property tax.

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You can move that mill rate.

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You already have three different mill rates for single-family homes.

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Urban, less urban, and then the rural.

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You could be doing all kinds of things with your, basically, mill rate.

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But the fact is that you have a system in place today that rewards people that live long-term in a residence.

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And it punishes people that are trying to move in young people, new Canadians.

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And they pay way out of, fortunately way more taxes than the people have been around.

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It's just a bad tax.

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And then you shift this burden to the opponents.

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And then you sit there and you say, why are rents going up?

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They're going up because of the expense side.

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And the biggest expense I have is government.

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And then when you add the provincial government and the federal government, it's basically,

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what's left? So it is a bad tax, you could be doing something where you do, you bring it up

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$500 or 25% a year for the next few years. But how is it that it's fair, even from a single

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family point of view, let alone the sector that I'm involved in, which is my livelihood, which is

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the apartment business?

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And lobby them. I mean, affordability can be dealt with quite quickly.

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We don't talk about minimal wage, why not?

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The easiest way to push people up from that affordability crisis is increase minimal

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wage from $15 to $20.

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Now I know the provincial government, I've been in there and I've talked to this provincial

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government, I've talked to the new New Brunswick government, and it's like, why don't you

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do it?

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It's not your money, it's industry.

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Why don't you take minimal wage and go from $15 to $20?

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$15 gives you $30,000 a year, $20 gives you $40,000 a year, $25 middle wage gives you $50,000.

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That incremental $10,000 for all the people in Nova Scotia, there's 33,000 people that are on minimal wage.

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And there's another 13 to 16 at 1650, 50,000 people, which means by default it's 25,000 people in Metro.

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move the minimal wage, put that up in terms of discussion as elected officials to talk to the provincial government.

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Now, the premier is listening a bit.

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It's going to go to 1650, you know, talks about the biggest lift, it's got to be bigger.

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Why not?

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Thank you.

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Also, Austin, one more question, Mr. Frazier from Mayor Fillmore.

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Thank you, Mr. Frazier, and I, the conversation about minimum wage and

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and the assessment cap is extremely important.

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It's a distraction, however, from what the people around these tables can have an impact

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on, so I want to bring us back to the tax rate.

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You had a very thorough list of the cost of garbage collection, the cost of taxes and a number

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of other costs that have all increased rather dramatically in the last years, assessments

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and so forth.

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I would imagine you could add to that the cost of maintaining your housing stock as well.

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all the wages have gone up, materials, supply chain, all that, everything's more expensive.

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Who's paying for that?

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What do you mean?

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I'm paying for it.

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We are.

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The customers are paying.

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The tenants are paying.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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So every time.

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Okay.

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Last year we had a tax rate of .77.

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This year it's about the budget that we're presented a few, a couple of months ago was .792.

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That's a 3% increase in the tax rate that was presented to this council.

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That's going to go right on the rent, right?

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I mean, again, you say that.

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What I pay is a buck 11 because you don't add all the other sort of fixed charges through it.

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Like, all I see is the final bill.

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And it's a lot larger than that .77 to .79.

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You see what I'm asking you?

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Yeah.

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When the tax rate goes up, do the rents go up?

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They'll go up based on, and right now, because we've got to put it, we just get 5%.

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But again, if you set there and said, why do you have to spend this other $260,000, $260,000, $260,000,000 this year?

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And when I look at your budget, I mean, if I was sitting in one of these seats here,

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I would want to know the baseline in terms of the actual wages.

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Like if you've got a billion dollar budget, how much of it is going to wages?

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You've got 5, you've got 40, 800 people working here, all of it, most of it is essential services,

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the police, the fire, parks, the bus drivers.

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I get all that, but I mean, essentially, it's probably $100,000 times $5,000.

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That's 500 million.

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Where's the rest of the money going to be spent?

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I mean, wages are the simplest thing to get your head around, but you've got to know it collectively.

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You're in under the hood, and that's the work that the people around these tables are going to have to work on.

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But I think the important thing I want you to articulate is, when the tax rate goes up,

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what happens to the people in your rental units?

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Keep adding to our cost.

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When I started this, all expenses for running an apartment building was $2,000.

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$1,000 a unit. Every expense combined. Today, I mean, my average tax bill is between $3,000 to $4,000 per unit across the country.

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My rents have not gone up seven times. Like you're squeezing down.

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Just a few minutes. Let me ask a very specific question. You said at the Ex-military housing over in Dartmouth that you told the story of how the assessment has gone up dramatically and all that.

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When your tax bill goes up in those most affordable units in HRM, what happens to the rent

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in those most affordable units?

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I see it.

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I've got 40 percent committed that I cannot raise it now after this is after the fact.

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So I'll have to eat that and the rest of it is in terms of the terms they probably go closer to market.

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Does it mean that you're squeezing the balloon there?

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You can't raise the rent there because they're limited that the rent must go up elsewhere?

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Like overall, yes, when you talk about 18,000 units across the country.

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Excuse me, Mr. Mayor. Thank you very much for sort of getting into debate as opposed to public participation, but let's continue. Thank you, Mr. Frazier. And next, we will welcome Duncan Robertson.

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Welcome, Duncan.

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Okay.

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Freedom.

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Chairdeal, gamut and members of the Budget Committee.

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Thank you for allowing me to join you today to speak on Health Act Regiolamia's Budget for 2025-26.

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My name is Duncan Robertson.

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I'm the Director of Legislative Affairs for the Canadian Federation of Independent Business here in Nova Scotia, and I'm based in Health Act.

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As you may know, CFIB is Canada's largest non-for-profit organization devoted solely to the means, or to represent small businesses.

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We represent over 100,000 small and medium sized businesses across Canada, 4,200 of which

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are here in Nova Scotia, and over 1,450 are based here in the municipality.

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Over the past few years, CFIB has had a particular focus on the going on of municipal governments

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across the land to Canada, particularly surrounding taxation, red tape, permitting, and the impact

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of public construction on small businesses.

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Over the course of budget deliberations has been heartening to see mayor and council focus

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focus on finding ways to keep the current tax rate flat

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through finding efficiencies, such as those proposed

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during the February 26th Budget Committee meeting.

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Property taxes are a serious concern for our members.

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When asked which municipal issues have the largest impact

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on their business, six and 10 of our members cite

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property taxes as their top concern.

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This comes as no surprise when seven and 10

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of our members across Nova Scotia saw an increase

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the occupancy costs in the form of higher property taxes

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or rent during 2024.

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As you continue your deliberations, we ask that you keep the municipality's small businesses in mind.

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Beginning in 2020, small businesses experienced the impact of the pandemic, followed by high inflation environments,

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and now face the ongoing tariff situation, and which has caused exceptional uncertainty for 7-10 small businesses.

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These events have resulted in many small businesses operating on thin margins and limiting their ability to absorb increased costs.

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In fact, when surveyed six and 10 of our members in Nova Scotia have the head to increase their

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prices to keep up with rising occupancy costs.

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Therefore it's important to keep in mind that increases in commercial rates to not just

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impact businesses but also their consumers in terms of the prices they see.

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To address this concern we asked the council to do its utmost to freeze or ideally lower

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the commercial property tax rate.

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We also asked the council to be mindful of the tax gap or the difference in the tax rate

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between a commercial and residential property of the same value.

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During 2024, 2025, depending on where the business was located, commercial properties

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were paying a rate up to five and a half times higher than their residential counterparts.

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So we asked that council focus on reducing that tax gap going forward.

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In addition to property taxation, another area that we focus on is of course red tape.

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Now, while the HRM has had a strong history in reducing red tape and was a past golden scissors

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recipient during CFIVE's red tape ordinance week in 2019, there is always more work

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to do. In the 2024 iteration of CFIB's Atlantic Municipal Report, the HRM received a

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7 out of 10 tied for the highest score on red tape reduction. However, the municipality

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lost marks for not having a public red tape feedback portal in place. As budget deliberations

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near their end and you consider the budget adjustment list, we ask the council consider establishing

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a public feedback portal, a cost effective tool where small businesses can identify areas

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or instances of red tape, and allows the municipality to track these concerns in real time.

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We recommend that the HRM engage the provincial office of regulatory efficiency to replicate

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the current tool being used by the province.

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Finally with the ongoing economic uncertainty and impact of tariffs, the municipality must

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review fees that charge small businesses with the aim to reduce or eliminate when possible.

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Now more than ever, it's crucial that all orders of government be mindful of the cost pressures

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that place on small businesses.

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One such fee council could consider removing is the fee for sidewalk patio applications.

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In addition to the costs of parts and labor, small businesses in the hospitality sector

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must also pay around $1,000 to get their sidewalk patio application processed by the municipality,

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which is an amount higher than major cities such as Toronto, Calgary, and Edmonton.

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While we approach the warmer months, we ask that council eliminate this tax on summer and

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let small businesses in the hospitality sector take full advantage of the tourism season.

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by temporarily expanding their footprint and welcoming tourists and locals alike.

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In 2020, HRM Council stepped up by waiving sidewalk padiophies at a cost of only $40,000,

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or an equivalent to 0.005% of the city's overall budget for that year.

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We asked that you step up again for the misspal these small businesses in the hospitality sector,

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but to not simply waive these fees eliminate them.

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With that, we hope our members' views and recommendations will provide your committee

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with the necessary insights as you consider feedback from the public on budget 2025, 2026.

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I'm happy to answer any questions. Should you help them?

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Thank you very much. I don't see any

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questions for you. Thank you, Duncan. Our next speaker is Wendy Wilson. And after Wendy is Lou

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Campbell and then Sue Keller,

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Wendy Wilson. Welcome. Yes, good morning, everyone. Thanks for the opportunity

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to be able to speak in front of you this morning.

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I'm here to support the just action food plan.

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I will give you just a little bit of information,

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some background in terms of how I am connected

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to this program.

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Myself, along with four other African Nova Scotians,

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we're asked about three years ago to take part

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in an African Nova Scotian and Black Food Sovereignty

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Working Group.

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And as a result, we started working on a plan,

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similar to Toronto's black food sovereignty plan. We used that as a model. And what we did is

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created recommendations. And then those recommendations went through as part of the larger

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just food action plan for African Nova Scotia and black communities as well as indigenous communities

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as well. And so what we ended up doing is hiring a black food coordinator for the City of Halifax,

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which I work in the Black food sovereignty communities across Canada quite often I traveled

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to speak at some of these conferences that are held in different provinces. I've been

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welcomed into Indigenous communities and I have to say that when I speak I speak so

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proudly about being able to talk about a city that I live in and that I'm from and very

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well connected to that we have a we have a food plan. And we have a food plan that is

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targeted towards and has an emphasis towards those who are most food insecure. So black

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and indigenous people in this country are the most food insecure communities across

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the country. I'm primarily an educator. I've been a public education for the last 20 years.

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I worked in classrooms for 20 years. I've worked at the Department of Education. I currently

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They work at the Nova Scotia Teachers Union as an executive staff officer.

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I know education and I know the impact of food on children in education and their learning

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day.

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And so, we were able to, through this work that we're doing with the Black Food Coordinator,

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we were able to create this position and then create programming and initiatives in community,

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in indigenous communities, and in particular the program that I'm working with with the African

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Nova Scotian and Black Food Sovereignty Working Group that now is an advisory to the position

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of the food coordinator in creating programming.

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One of the programs that we created was called the Blended Forward Program.

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You, I think, got a QR code or were sent the link.

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You can watch the video if you haven't seen it yet.

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But what it is is a meal prep program and it's the beginning stages

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of really giving people sovereignty and the skills that they need

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and the capacity that they need in order to feed themselves.

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And so it was a Blended Forward Program.

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everyone got a free ninja blender at the end. We had a registered

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dietician who just happens to be part of the advisory group,

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Nakeda Paris and Cheyenne Jones, the black food coordinator.

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Those two wrote the curriculum. We came up with the idea.

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They wrote the curriculum and delivered it to community.

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Two communities, one in Halifax, one in darkness,

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over a four week period, and it was so successful.

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I tell you how successful this program was.

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It was so successful. I had so many people angry with me,

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not speaking to me, upset that they didn't get into the blend if for a program.

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And so we now have people across the province asking if we will deliver this curriculum

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in communities to help people become more self-sufficient, to be able to feed themselves,

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to be able to meal prep.

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And we were very strategic about who was in the program.

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We wanted credible messengers.

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We wanted people that would go out and share the information.

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And so therefore, it's a play on the words blended forward.

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It is a blending program that taught people how to make soups and juices and just all the

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tricks that a person would need in order to take very little money and to be able to come

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up with a very highly nutritious meal.

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It was very popular and I think it was popular because it was being created and delivered by

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people in community.

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So the advisory group took part in the program as well and were able to blend

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it forward and to teach other people what we learned in the program when we're talking

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about food we're really talking about social justice right and if we're talking about

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social justice we're going to be looking at the impact that food has on people every

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single day and I realize that as an educator that this is one of the first and foremost it's

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the most important thing that we can do is to not only fight racism which I fought on my

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life living in Nova Scotia, but to be able to give people what they need, students what

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they need, individuals what they need, in order to be healthy in order to fight racism.

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And so food is everything, and I would really like to see this added to the budget for

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this year.

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It's very little money for a really great impact.

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Thank you so very much.

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We have two questions coming from counselors if you're open to that.

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Councilor Hinch.

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Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you Wendy for that presentation. I greatly

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appreciate it. I have been in a few meetings lately with the with regards to the blended

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forward program and I do believe it's an awesome program that we have in our community. So I

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want to thank you for that. Going forward, I know you guys have you're at a limit right

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now. But going forward, what does it look like in the end if we continue on with the budget?

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What would it look like to our community, what we can do to initiate and make this more

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greater than what it already is?

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Because of our position as advisory and also the

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food coordinator, what we've done is we built partnerships with folks. You're going to hear from

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some folks likely later on today in support of the Just Food Action Plan. And so we're not

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Not necessarily asking for a handout, we're asking for, you know, funds to be able to get started, and so that we are able to continue this work on our own, we're not completely dependent on the city, we just need to start up money in order to grow the position of the Black Food Coordinator to give her and ask the advisory capacity to gain these funds on our own, we want to be sovereign, we don't want to be dependent, but this little bit of money, I think it was around about $12,000 that it took to run to

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complete programs and not a lot of money but very great impacts. People are

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asking for it. The programs are going to be delivered in community but what

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community now has to do is they have to somehow find the money themselves to

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pay for the program. We want to be able to have a spin on the different programs

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and different communities depending on what community needs are and so we're not

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just going in community and telling them what they need. We have a base

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foundational curriculum and then we go and work with community in order to give

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them and can tell the programming in in order to max the needs of the

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community. So what people what what it is it's it's putting food immediately and

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skills and capacity immediately in people's hands. Thank you. Can I ask one more?

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So again and I guess that I've already had consultations with folks with

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with regard to this program, but what it really does, I mean, it really puts it in the

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hands of African Nova Scotians indigenous, where we would normally not look for it, where

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we would normally have difficulty getting it.

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So I, and this program is one that I only know of with regards to African Nova Scotians and

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indigenous.

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So I thank you for your presentation today, and I will be supporting this.

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Thank you.

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Councilor White has a question.

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Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Wendy.

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I have a question. Is the Black Food Coordinator and HRM employee? Or who's that?

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Well, she's actually, so she's an employee of the one, the one north and economic society.

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That's who she's being hosted by, but obviously the funding is coming from. Okay, so it's a bit of funding to do that. I guess what I'm wondering is, like, this is obviously fantastic work. By doing this work, are we able to encourage funding from other orders of government? Like, does, does doing this bring in more so that it. What's, like I mentioned, what the black food coordinator and the advisory is able to do is to

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great gain, support and collaboration with other organizations, government organizations,

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grants.

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We need someone in that position to even be able to grow.

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The capacity to apply for grants, so this is not just the city initiative.

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We're looking to take this initiative to be honest with you.

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We're looking to be a beacon and to be able to model this program in other communities

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across the province as well, but our focus is on the HRM currently.

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And so, yes, we're looking for other funders where that's what the role of the black food

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coordinator is to do is to find other funding and to collaborative partners to continue

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not just this program but to grow the program into a black food hub.

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Okay, so if we didn't fund this, would that still happen?

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Well, we definitely need the funding for the black food coordinator because we need someone

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in the pay position to be able to do that because the advisory is very limited in what we can do,

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we work a couple hours, two hours a month, advise in the position. So we do, we need the position,

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but we also need that seed money in order to grow as well. So we need that money for programming

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and initiatives. People are looking forward to this. We have to find other means if you're not able

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to support this. We really have to hit the payment because this is something, when people got phone calls

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that they were in the program, some people cried.

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This is about their health.

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This is people who had pre-existing conditions,

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people who might suffer from diabetes,

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and want to learn how to treat themselves holistically.

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Many of the folks that are in the program

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never had direct engagement with the registered

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dietician before, so this was the first as well.

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And so we're building, we're not just looking at

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funding the program through the city,

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we're looking at having the city as one of our partners to be honest with you in order to grow

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this and so we do need the the budget to be fully funded in order to do that. Thank you very

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much Wendy. We have three more councillors with questions for you and Councillor Morse.

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00:47:37,260 --> 00:47:41,080
Thank you chair and thank you Wendy for coming in this morning. I'm wondering if you could say a

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little bit more about the experience of the participants when they get their blenders and what a

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difference this makes to them just so we could understand that a little bit better.

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Are these working parents and maybe it allows them to do a lot more in a shorter time

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or are they able to change their diets as a result?

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I'd just like to understand why this is such a hot commodity to have these blenders and

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the program to go along with it.

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Yeah so it is a program that participants told us what they wanted so prior to creating

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the program, we're actually able to go into community and do in community engagement,

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to surveys, found out what they wanted.

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So this is very tailored to community, black community, and them telling us what they

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wanted.

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And so delivering the programs, what they really needed is the educational piece, the skills

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and capacity that they needed in order to not only feed themselves, but also to be able

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to teach, to blend it forward, to teach other people as well.

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So the participants in the program were intergenerational, and this is how we wanted it.

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We wanted to introduce there was a mother auntie and a daughter that was involved in one

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of our programs at North Grove and so what this also offered beyond the food and the nutrition

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part is it offered fellowship to community members, people being able to get out and chat

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with each other and also if there was a cultural aspect as well because we really were

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highly focused on the African Nova Scotian community, so there was a cultural piece as well.

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So it was holistic, intergenerational.

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We really selected people based on their ability to be able to blend this information forward

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and not just keep it to themselves.

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So people that we knew as community would be key in disseminating this information to others.

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And we kept it very simplistic as well, so that people were able to digest information.

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and learn a new skill, and learn about food, and learn about how all you need is a blender.

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All you need is some access to fruits and vegetables, and that really could be something

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that anyone can participate in, right?

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You just need electricity.

431
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:58,000
You could carry that blender around with you, right, and the nutritional value that's packed

432
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,440
in these blending or blended recipes that were created by a registered dietitian who

433
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:09,240
who just so happened to be my grade three student many, many moons ago, and now she's

434
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:14,880
we're working collaboratively in community to help feed people, and not just feed people.

435
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:20,660
There's, you know, what they need nutritionally, but also feed people's souls, right?

436
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,660
We're working, we're working all, in terms of holistically, we're working on all of these

437
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:32,920
part, the spiritual part, the fellowship part, the, you know, collaboration piece, the

438
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,100
food knowledge piece, the wisdom that goes with it.

439
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:42,280
The program really was curtailed for a specific community, and that's what we would do when

440
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:43,480
we go into different communities.

441
00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:49,300
We would engage and find out what community wants and allow them to help develop the program

442
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:49,620
as well.

443
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:50,840
Great.

444
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:51,620
Thank you very much.

445
00:50:51,740 --> 00:50:51,940
Thanks.

446
00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:53,820
Councillor Gile.

447
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:55,820
Thank you, manager.

448
00:50:55,820 --> 00:51:04,080
Sure. Thank you, Wendy. I did witness in the video. It's very inspiring. I just have

449
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:10,160
a few inquiries here. So I believe that you mentioned that you do have a registered

450
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:17,720
dietitian on board, so that's great. And yes, it is a social deterrent of health, proper

451
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:25,200
food and everything. I do smoothies myself. One of the things I want to know is the stake

452
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,240
called a participation. So do you have a buy-in with local vendors, local businesses,

453
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,640
like maybe framers, where you get your products itself?

454
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:40,860
So this is something that just got started with a very limited budget. So this is where

455
00:51:40,860 --> 00:51:45,940
we are right now. This is where we are. We're making the connections where the advisory

456
00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:50,760
as well as the food coordinator is meeting with our partners in supportive feed and over

457
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,200
We've got some great stuff going on there as well, good food.

458
00:51:55,060 --> 00:51:59,860
People are also coming to us because they're interested in this knowledge hub that we do

459
00:51:59,860 --> 00:52:03,840
have in terms of what community needs and what works in community.

460
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:09,240
And I find what always works in community is what it's community people that are creating

461
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:14,640
the program for community as opposed to people from outside of community coming in community

462
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,760
thinking that they know better and they can do better.

463
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:22,380
We are a very competent group of folks, Rodney Small, who is the executive director of

464
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:22,760
the one.

465
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,220
We have Cheyenne Jones, who is a Black food coordinator, Nikaia Perris, who I mentioned

466
00:52:28,220 --> 00:52:33,680
former student of mine, who is now a registered dietitian and works in food security and policy

467
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,500
for the province.

468
00:52:36,020 --> 00:52:43,240
And we have Daniel Jackson as well, who does programming through, oh, she's a social worker,

469
00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:46,340
she does programming through, oh, she has this linked to community.

470
00:52:46,340 --> 00:52:53,560
So, we're not just looking for the city to fund, we're looking for money for grassroots

471
00:52:54,180 --> 00:52:59,580
seed money in order to develop the position as Black food coordinator and to have some

472
00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:01,660
money for program and initiatives as well.

473
00:53:01,980 --> 00:53:06,180
It's very important, it's not a lot of money, but it really has a huge impact.

474
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,040
Okay.

475
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,800
And I also like the holistic intergenerational approach to your program too as well.

476
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:13,760
Thank you.

477
00:53:17,140 --> 00:53:21,740
We came with the knowledge and the curriculum and then we placed it in the hands of community

478
00:53:21,740 --> 00:53:24,120
to direct us in terms of what they need it.

479
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:25,800
That's why the program was so successful.

480
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:26,740
Thank you.

481
00:53:27,020 --> 00:53:27,740
Councillor Hurtling.

482
00:53:29,060 --> 00:53:29,260
Hi.

483
00:53:29,580 --> 00:53:31,860
Thank you very much and thank you so much for showing up today.

484
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:36,860
I think that this program, you know, or I think that food security is an important issue

485
00:53:36,860 --> 00:53:40,100
and I think that it should be addressed.

486
00:53:40,100 --> 00:53:46,980
I think the challenge for counselors like me is the lane in which we are operating, which

487
00:53:46,980 --> 00:53:47,940
is a municipal one.

488
00:53:50,360 --> 00:54:00,940
I do know and that ultimately nutrition, there are all, there are nutrition, public health.

489
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:07,080
These things are all, like they fall under the province's mandate, like currently the community

490
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:14,960
food and access literacy grant is open right now. I feel like this is very much outside

491
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:21,100
of the municipal scope. So I'm wondering when you talk about like that you are engaging

492
00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:27,740
provincial partners who are nutritionists, who are those things. I'm wondering if you could

493
00:54:27,740 --> 00:54:31,820
kind of speak to that relationship a little bit more. And then again specifically about

494
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:40,960
the blended forward? So am I understanding that we bought blenders and gave them to, that

495
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:46,100
was the program? Can you can you speak a little bit more about the blended forward program

496
00:54:46,100 --> 00:54:53,020
specifically? We we bought blenders. Okay so it was a it was a five week nutritional program

497
00:54:53,020 --> 00:54:57,060
right where we want to be able to give people the skills that they need and also the equipment

498
00:54:57,060 --> 00:55:01,360
and tools that they need. That's why they got the blenders. So we wanted to be gave them

499
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,180
at the end of the program. People were given the blenders to take home to continue to work to

500
00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:12,020
blend it for. I mean the blenders weren't expensive. They were a ninja blender, an excellent blender

501
00:55:12,020 --> 00:55:16,680
that's able to crush ice and do all kinds of amazing things. And so they had the tool. So what we

502
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:22,320
wanted to do, we didn't want to give talk theory and talk about the nutrition and how this is done

503
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,060
And then not be able to give people the practical tools

504
00:55:25,060 --> 00:55:29,820
and the means and the avenue to be able to blend it forward

505
00:55:29,820 --> 00:55:30,820
and continue to do that.

506
00:55:31,140 --> 00:55:34,300
So it was actually, it was very important

507
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:36,180
that they did have not only the skills,

508
00:55:36,380 --> 00:55:38,980
the recipes, the experience of blending it,

509
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:40,940
the knowledge from the registered dietician,

510
00:55:41,140 --> 00:55:42,940
but they also needed the tool to be able

511
00:55:42,940 --> 00:55:44,040
to take home to do that.

512
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:44,500
Right.

513
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,620
So can you speak a little bit more

514
00:55:46,620 --> 00:55:48,420
about the provinces role in this?

515
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:52,180
And then also because I was the blended forward program

516
00:55:52,180 --> 00:55:56,760
was that attached to any other community garden or anything like that?

517
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,360
So it's attached to the bigger just food action planet, right?

518
00:56:00,460 --> 00:56:02,740
We were one component of that, right?

519
00:56:03,020 --> 00:56:08,080
There's the indigenous food sovereignty working group and then there was the African Nova

520
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,480
Scotia and black food sovereignty working group.

521
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:16,300
We were just one component of the bigger just food action plan, the strategic plan for

522
00:56:16,300 --> 00:56:17,060
the city.

523
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,480
And so what we're doing, we're in advisory.

524
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:26,900
We've been doing this, working with the help to curtail the path of the black food coordinator and advise this position.

525
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:36,380
So we work, well, we work more than two, we're supposed to be two hours a month, but because we're this is community and we're very committed to this.

526
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:43,360
We work overtime trying to create programs in community and trying to work with other funders as well.

527
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,720
Provincial funders, we're looking for federal money.

528
00:56:47,020 --> 00:56:51,040
the land infrastructure, fund that was the national program.

529
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:57,920
This is also, this is something that I feel very proud about when I am in other spaces to be able to talk that my city,

530
00:56:57,980 --> 00:57:05,980
the city that I come from, Halifax, we care about social justice and we care about people being able to be fed as well

531
00:57:05,980 --> 00:57:07,760
and have the knowledge to be able to feed themselves.

532
00:57:08,220 --> 00:57:12,720
So what we're doing is removing beyond food security, food security out the door.

533
00:57:13,220 --> 00:57:14,440
I'm a food secure person.

534
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:20,260
I have a great job, I've got a vehicle, I'm educated, I can chop the flyers, but if the

535
00:57:20,260 --> 00:57:24,500
transport truck stop coming in, if I'm not able to access food from the grocery store,

536
00:57:24,740 --> 00:57:28,120
I'm no longer, our food security is very vulnerable for all of us.

537
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,840
So what we want to be able to do is give people the skills we want to grow this program,

538
00:57:32,260 --> 00:57:35,140
the blended forwards only one part of it, it's just getting started.

539
00:57:35,420 --> 00:57:39,640
We also want to be able to teach people how to grow the food through a planter program

540
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,640
and connect to and build partnerships and support

541
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,080
with community gardens.

542
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:45,960
This is what we need this money for

543
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:47,080
to be able to do this.

544
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,720
This money is very important to see money

545
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,800
to be able to grow this position.

546
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,780
Okay, thank you.

547
00:57:55,780 --> 00:57:58,820
Thank you, we have another counselor with a question

548
00:57:58,820 --> 00:58:01,760
and we're gonna try to be succinct.

549
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,820
We've got a long day and lots of speakers, thank you.

550
00:58:05,580 --> 00:58:06,640
Thank you, Madam Chair.

551
00:58:07,860 --> 00:58:09,680
Ms. Wilson, thank you very much for your passion

552
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,320
in the work, and everybody in the advisory board that you do for a community.

553
00:58:13,860 --> 00:58:14,580
Quick question, though.

554
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,760
You mentioned a number of times you need that start up money, that seed money.

555
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:19,600
What's that dollar amount that you need?

556
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,560
From the just food action plan in here, it might be able to on a broader, specifically for

557
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:30,940
your group.

558
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:37,600
So for our group, we're looking at about $120,000, I believe should be able to, that we're looking

559
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:42,620
to find the position again, and then we're looking for money to run the black, the blended

560
00:58:42,620 --> 00:58:46,100
and for a program in other communities in the HRM.

561
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:49,180
And also we're looking to grow this program

562
00:58:49,180 --> 00:58:52,700
with teaching people how to grow in these cosmic planters.

563
00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:54,520
It's like a self-watering container

564
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:55,740
that's almost cooked proof.

565
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,000
And so we would need about that kind of money.

566
00:58:59,220 --> 00:59:01,860
And then next year when we're standing up here

567
00:59:01,860 --> 00:59:03,600
having a conversation, we're gonna talk to you about

568
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:08,320
the funding that we landed for maybe federally,

569
00:59:08,460 --> 00:59:10,960
maybe provincially, maybe through our partners in support

570
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,720
that we're growing these relationships currently right now.

571
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:15,800
We're growing these relationships.

572
00:59:16,220 --> 00:59:16,920
Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

573
00:59:17,140 --> 00:59:17,600
I appreciate it.

574
00:59:17,940 --> 00:59:18,320
Madam Chair.

575
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:20,600
Thank you very much.

576
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,580
Ms. Wilson, appreciate you answering all of our questions.

577
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:31,120
Our next speaker is Lou Campbell, and after Lou will be Sue Keller, who will be joining us

578
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:31,580
by Zoom.

579
00:59:34,580 --> 00:59:35,020
Welcome, Lou.

580
00:59:37,870 --> 00:59:42,710
I've spoken at many of these meetings, and I've tried a variety of approaches for what to

581
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:49,510
say and how to be here, I've taken hours to research, I've agonized over getting it just right,

582
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:54,590
I've spoken from experience and what I've witnessed, all to try to mold myself to the vibe of

583
00:59:54,590 --> 00:59:58,450
what this room seems to demand, and it's never worked.

584
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:06,640
So today I'm going to try something a little different. I've emailed you all the facts in advance, so don't worry. I do know them.

585
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:29,580
But today in this room I bring you in offering from the past and something to think about as you make your budgeting decisions. I'm an actor and an artist. I come from four generations of actors and artists. My grandfather Douglas Campbell was my introduction to social justice, and he used to read to me a poem by William Blake that has always stuck with me.

586
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:33,240
William Blake was also an artist in a revolutionary thinker.

587
01:00:33,500 --> 01:00:35,780
This poem was written in 1796.

588
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,600
It is a battle cry against state violence,

589
01:00:39,420 --> 01:00:42,860
the same state violence that continues today over 200 years later.

590
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,520
It has changed form, it changes shape, but it continues.

591
01:00:47,300 --> 01:00:48,560
Make no mistake.

592
01:00:49,420 --> 01:00:54,520
Funding an armored vehicle and 14 RCMP positions over food programs

593
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,660
when food insecurity is rampant

594
01:00:56,660 --> 01:01:10,020
and community alternatives to policing, not funding community alternatives to policing when two people have been killed by police on mental health calls in the past month is violence against community, it is state violence.

595
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:15,120
And just as William Blake did in 1796, we will stand to fight it.

596
01:01:18,190 --> 01:01:25,270
Oh, for a voice like thunder and a tongue to drown the throat of war.

597
01:01:27,010 --> 01:01:32,610
When the senses are shaken and the soul is driven to madness, who can stand?

598
01:01:34,830 --> 01:01:41,750
When the souls of the oppressed fight in the troubled air that rages, who can stand?

599
01:01:43,970 --> 01:01:49,330
When the whirlwind of fury comes from the throne of God, when the frowns of his countenance

600
01:01:49,330 --> 01:01:52,270
drive the nations together, who can stand?

601
01:01:53,710 --> 01:02:00,010
When sin claps his broad wings over the battle, and sails rejoicing in the flood of death,

602
01:02:00,450 --> 01:02:06,210
when souls are torn to everlasting life, and themes of hell rejoice upon the slain, oh,

603
01:02:06,490 --> 01:02:08,010
who can stand?

604
01:02:10,690 --> 01:02:14,550
Oh, who hath caused this,

605
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,900
who can answer at the throne of God?

606
01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:22,720
The

607
01:02:25,410 --> 01:02:27,990
kings and the nobles of the land have done it.

608
01:02:29,870 --> 01:02:33,390
Here it not heaven, thy ministers have done it.

609
01:02:35,670 --> 01:02:38,910
The decisions that you make in this room will be your legacy.

610
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,960
They will affect future generations to come.

611
01:02:45,340 --> 01:02:50,840
We're watching history does not forget who here can stand.

612
01:02:53,820 --> 01:02:58,080
Ask yourself why you are grilling someone who is suggesting a food program

613
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,300
and not giving that same energy to police.

614
01:03:02,180 --> 01:03:03,880
Why are you not going over their budgets

615
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:04,900
with a fine tooth comb?

616
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,740
Why is an armored vehicle even on this list?

617
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:10,440
I'm glad it's on this list for the chopping block,

618
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:11,080
that's for sure.

619
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,000
Make the right call.

620
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,860
Make the right call.

621
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:19,640
I don't know how else to say it.

622
01:03:21,380 --> 01:03:22,120
Thank you.

623
01:03:25,650 --> 01:03:26,770
Thank you very much.

624
01:03:28,010 --> 01:03:31,270
Our next speaker is Sue Keller by Zoom.

625
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:32,010
Mr. Clerk.

626
01:03:37,380 --> 01:03:44,040
Can you hear me? Welcome. Thank you and we can see you. Thank you. Thank you.

627
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:50,420
Hi, my name is Sue Kelliger. I'm the Director of Community Partnerships Innovation and Advocacy

628
01:03:50,420 --> 01:03:56,320
with Feed Nova Scotia, and I'm really grateful to be here and have the opportunity to speak on

629
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:02,700
behalf of Feed Nova Scotia. I'll start by saying we're really concerned about the proposal in front

630
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:09,840
to council today and the impact that prioritising flatlining property taxes over crucial community

631
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:16,060
services will have in the year ahead. We understand that property taxes are the main source

632
01:04:16,060 --> 01:04:22,140
of revenue for you as a municipality, and to achieve the tax options presented to you means

633
01:04:22,140 --> 01:04:28,240
service cuts. We are concerned about the impact of those cuts on folks across Halifax who need

634
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:35,040
at the most. This report before you has only been available since Friday of last week,

635
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:41,240
and it's 119 pages long, so it's challenging to read and digest in a meaningful way.

636
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,560
But from what we understand, it includes a recommendation to prioritise funding,

637
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:53,880
14 more or CNP officers at a cost of over a million dollars. There are no details available

638
01:04:53,880 --> 01:05:00,320
about what those positions would be, or why they would be a priority over social and community

639
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:07,020
programming. And at the same time, essential community services and supports, including the

640
01:05:07,020 --> 01:05:13,480
just-food gap funding are not listed, and therefore are absent for your consideration.

641
01:05:14,300 --> 01:05:21,540
Halifax is in multiple crises right now, including a food insecurity crisis, and all of the data that

642
01:05:21,540 --> 01:05:24,720
that we have indicates that things are getting worse.

643
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,240
Food bank uses up 43% since 2022,

644
01:05:29,620 --> 01:05:32,560
and up 17% in the last year alone.

645
01:05:33,220 --> 01:05:35,900
The social harms of food insecurity are devastating,

646
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,520
and we know that food banks are not the answer.

647
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,520
Hansel has committed to detasking the police,

648
01:05:43,780 --> 01:05:47,100
and we would argue that this doesn't mean more officers

649
01:05:47,100 --> 01:05:49,780
or armored vehicles in Halifax,

650
01:05:49,780 --> 01:05:55,600
but instead means investing in funding and support for programs and services that bring

651
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,780
people together and build resilience connected and strong communities.

652
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:07,200
The Just Food Action Plan, unanimously approved by Council, is leading edge social policy championed

653
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:07,880
by the municipality.

654
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:14,720
It's progressive, it's a vision focused on system level change and shaped by thousands of

655
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:21,480
voices from across HRM. And as Wendy mentioned, it does have a reputation across and beyond

656
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:29,440
the province as HRM being a regional food policy and programming lead. I want to highlight

657
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:34,700
some key components of just food and the value they bring to the table. The Halifax Food

658
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:41,300
Council creates critical space for champions coming together to take collective action towards

659
01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:46,920
common goals, which otherwise may not be happening. Collaboration between the municipality and the

660
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:52,580
mobile food markets helps to bring affordable quality food right into communities that need it

661
01:06:52,580 --> 01:06:58,740
the most. The emergency food truck is a critical component of the EMO response during events

662
01:06:58,740 --> 01:07:05,100
and is a resource and partner with Second Harvest to reduce food waste and connect communities to food

663
01:07:05,100 --> 01:07:11,160
in other times, ongoing collaborations between the EAC, one north end, the

664
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:15,580
Mid-Mornative Friendship Center and Nova Scotia Health Public Health highlights

665
01:07:15,580 --> 01:07:20,300
the need and the benefits of equitable governance within our food system.

666
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:25,300
And our partnership, Feed Nova Scotia's partnership with Just Food, has been

667
01:07:25,300 --> 01:07:30,400
focused on piloting dignified alternatives to food banks and our

668
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:35,920
Our collaborations to provide low barrier grants to community organisations have provided

669
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:41,940
opportunities for us to learn from each other, share resources and increase capacity for

670
01:07:41,940 --> 01:07:44,980
community-based food action across the region.

671
01:07:45,740 --> 01:07:50,600
You and your colleagues at Regional Council are vital partners in this work, and the provision

672
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:56,760
of adequate core funding is key to enable these relationships to grow and to leverage this

673
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:01,680
funding to increase the collective impact scope and outreach of the Just Food Action

674
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:09,340
Plan. The gap in the 2025-26 HREM funding for the strategy will mean potential loss of

675
01:08:09,340 --> 01:08:16,920
essential positions, programming and momentum in community, and further delay our collective

676
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:23,800
capacity to realise significant change for your residents. We are asking the Council reconsider

677
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:31,060
it's priorities and some the current gap in just food funding for 2025-26 and the report

678
01:08:31,060 --> 01:08:41,020
before you states that the tax impact of this funding is 0.03% or $1.16 to the average tax bill

679
01:08:41,020 --> 01:08:46,820
and that's an investment that can be leveraged into social and economic benefits across HRN,

680
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:53,020
prioritizing your most vulnerable residents and supporting the organizations that serve them.

681
01:08:55,080 --> 01:09:03,900
Great timing. Thank you, Sue. Our next three speakers are Sue Yutek, Peter Polly, and Don Mills.

682
01:09:05,340 --> 01:09:06,440
Welcome, Sue Yutek.

683
01:09:12,290 --> 01:09:14,290
Sit, I'm still recovering from St. Patrick's Day.

684
01:09:17,110 --> 01:09:21,590
So good morning, Council, my name is Sue Yutek, and I'm the Executive Director for the

685
01:09:21,590 --> 01:09:27,250
Scrooge Area Business Association. I'm also this chair, this year's chair for the Helifax Bids,

686
01:09:27,250 --> 01:09:32,210
which is a coalition of nine business improvement districts as stretching as far as Porter Lake.

687
01:09:32,890 --> 01:09:37,690
And we account for 23% of your commercial assessment here in HRM.

688
01:09:38,330 --> 01:09:42,950
So as you deliberate today, I'd like to make a few comments on behalf of our association and its members.

689
01:09:43,530 --> 01:09:50,150
One public safety, we fully can support the police budget if it contains officers on the streets of our downtowns.

690
01:09:50,330 --> 01:09:55,910
Currently on spring garden, we are having a noticeable police present and it's paying off in space.

691
01:09:55,910 --> 01:10:00,890
safety concerns amongst our members remains very high. Proactive community

692
01:10:00,890 --> 01:10:04,470
police has long been proven to be the most effective way to both prevent crime,

693
01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:08,870
while providing an excellent training ground for police to know and understand the

694
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:14,050
complex issues in our downtown districts. Spring Garden and downtown Halifax are

695
01:10:14,050 --> 01:10:17,570
the only two areas in our region without a community and policing office.

696
01:10:18,170 --> 01:10:22,850
This is a key piece of infrastructure that is needed. It means that an officer has

697
01:10:22,850 --> 01:10:26,450
have to make a report, it has to go back to Godigan Street each and every day.

698
01:10:26,570 --> 01:10:28,190
We lose valuable time on the street.

699
01:10:28,610 --> 01:10:32,630
If we had a community policing office, that presence would be there in the spring garden

700
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:32,930
area.

701
01:10:33,650 --> 01:10:40,530
While the central library is very lukewarm to this idea, both Paul McKinnon and I feel that

702
01:10:40,530 --> 01:10:46,170
this small portion could be set aside at the library for this function.

703
01:10:46,810 --> 01:10:51,490
The original plans for the library, I think Councillor Hensby would remember, and anyone

704
01:10:51,490 --> 01:10:56,530
else that's still the holdover. We actually had a community policing office, that was part

705
01:10:56,530 --> 01:11:01,870
of the plan. And so I'd like council to move forward and with the police this year,

706
01:11:02,290 --> 01:11:08,390
to look at the seriousness of getting a community policing office in the library. The library

707
01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:14,030
itself has issues, and I think having an office in that space can go a long way for safety

708
01:11:14,030 --> 01:11:18,990
for all around. Ground floor commercial space. We support Councillor Cuddle's motion to

709
01:11:18,990 --> 01:11:23,230
have the provincial government rescind its recent amendment to the municipal charter minimum

710
01:11:23,230 --> 01:11:27,990
planning requirements. This amendment allows for a reduction in the percentage for commercial

711
01:11:27,990 --> 01:11:33,390
space at ground floor level that if the commercial the construction starts before April 27.

712
01:11:34,110 --> 01:11:38,010
This commercial space is essential in providing amenities that cater to densification of

713
01:11:38,010 --> 01:11:43,390
our downtowns and main streets. Reducing commercial space will reduce our capacity to fund programs

714
01:11:43,390 --> 01:11:47,350
that drive events, marketing, maintenance, and beautification efforts.

715
01:11:47,630 --> 01:11:54,870
As I'll remind council today, BIDs, the business improvement districts are funded through a levy that's collected through the commercial portion.

716
01:11:55,070 --> 01:11:58,230
We don't get any portion of residential assessment.

717
01:12:00,010 --> 01:12:05,090
Marketing and beautification, as you strive to get folks out of the car, this will have the opposite effect.

718
01:12:05,890 --> 01:12:12,230
The commercial tax rate, the BIDs have seen successive tax rate increases over the last three years.

719
01:12:12,230 --> 01:12:14,110
on top of the assessment lift.

720
01:12:14,730 --> 01:12:17,270
We're asking that you not raise the commercial tax rate

721
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:19,850
this year above what you've already received

722
01:12:19,850 --> 01:12:21,590
from the assess value from the province.

723
01:12:22,110 --> 01:12:24,350
We're still recovering from COVID, sea balloons,

724
01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:26,530
and we're now in the middle of a trade war,

725
01:12:26,730 --> 01:12:28,250
which is affecting small businesses.

726
01:12:29,430 --> 01:12:30,590
Mental health and wellness.

727
01:12:31,150 --> 01:12:33,410
We are seeing firsthand the effects of a lack

728
01:12:33,410 --> 01:12:35,010
of mental health support system.

729
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:37,290
Please keep the pressure on the provincial,

730
01:12:37,570 --> 01:12:40,890
on the province, to get the appropriate supports in place

731
01:12:40,890 --> 01:12:43,090
so we can have healthy downtowns and main streets.

732
01:12:43,970 --> 01:12:46,310
And finally, I don't even want to bring this up,

733
01:12:46,450 --> 01:12:49,750
but we are hearing whispers of a hiking parking fairs.

734
01:12:50,230 --> 01:12:51,930
Again, the timing could not be worse.

735
01:12:52,450 --> 01:12:55,290
Both the downtown and Springgarden spend thousands of dollars

736
01:12:55,290 --> 01:12:57,210
each year on promotions of parking

737
01:12:57,210 --> 01:12:58,930
in order to combat the misconception

738
01:12:58,930 --> 01:13:00,770
that there is no parking downtown.

739
01:13:02,050 --> 01:13:06,390
Currently, I think we all recognize it's not an ideal transit system

740
01:13:06,390 --> 01:13:10,490
at this point, and it forces people to have to bring their car

741
01:13:10,490 --> 01:13:12,390
are into work, whether they want to or not.

742
01:13:12,990 --> 01:13:17,250
Another rate increase at the meter is a deterrent, not a visit to the downtown.

743
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:23,210
So since I have a little time left, I just want to say, take that hat off, sue taxpayer.

744
01:13:24,490 --> 01:13:29,330
We've seen as taxpayers an enormous increase in our residential property tax assessment.

745
01:13:29,930 --> 01:13:37,510
You know, a lot of people forget that as an example, I am a single female living in a house that each year

746
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:42,250
the expenses get to the point that every year I'm going, this is it, it's a year to sell

747
01:13:42,250 --> 01:13:47,870
the house. The fact is, right now, and we've heard from speaker after speaker, the

748
01:13:47,870 --> 01:13:53,890
affordability crisis says that I might as well move outside of Halifax because there is

749
01:13:53,890 --> 01:14:01,810
nothing affordable. So, by this continued assessment increases, increases, you're taking

750
01:14:01,810 --> 01:14:06,670
someone like me that should be downsizing a house, but there is nowhere for me to go.

751
01:14:06,670 --> 01:14:16,310
So thank you, I think we all say, you know, within our means, we already know there's a water height coming up, there's a power height coming up, there's a property tax coming up.

752
01:14:16,570 --> 01:14:21,270
I am certainly not getting a 7% tax raise this year. So thank you.

753
01:14:23,110 --> 01:14:26,090
Thank you, Sue. Our next speaker is Peter Polly.

754
01:14:34,300 --> 01:14:39,220
I had submitted a PDF. I was wondering if it could be brought up before the timer started.

755
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:51,900
Yeah, it's admitted to the clerk and they confirmed that it would be presented to council's correspondence

756
01:14:52,440 --> 01:14:56,140
They have a copy of it. They have it and they said it would be ready for the presentation

757
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:33,060
The correspondence has been circulated all members of council. They have it in front of them. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you council and to Mayor Fillmore for letting me come to express some brief comments here today. My name is Peter Polly. I'm with polycorp properties. We've been quite active in the real estate residential development sector in Halifax for the last 20 years. So I want to make three points here today with only five minutes to do so.

758
01:15:33,060 --> 01:15:58,580
But the first page of my PDF has a couple snippets from the HRM staff report on the budget cuts and one of the lines says if budget committee seeks long term cost saving staff should be given direction before the budget closes or the start of the 2025-26 fiscal year in order to have sufficient time to implement proposed service changes for the 2026-27 budget.

759
01:15:58,580 --> 01:16:03,240
I take quite a bit of exception to a comment like that because it indicates an assumption

760
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:08,540
that spending levels can continue to increase, renovate it, and without regard for the level

761
01:16:08,540 --> 01:16:13,080
of property taxes required to fund such spending. I would have thought that there would have been a

762
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:18,840
standing or operating assumption that programs would be reviewed on an ongoing basis with budget,

763
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:24,880
i.e. cost considerations always top of mind. But if this is not the case, which is what the report

764
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:32,020
that Council needs to explicitly direct staff to do so now for the 2026, 2027 budget year.

765
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:38,100
Furthermore, I question why this exercise would be pushed out for a full operational year,

766
01:16:38,580 --> 01:16:45,020
and why mid-year changes cannot be considered to minimize spending in the 2025, 2026 budget year.

767
01:16:45,380 --> 01:16:51,700
I strongly suggest that two council, that staff be directed to find mid-year changes in program and

768
01:16:51,700 --> 01:16:58,480
that can be made instead of deferring such a review to simply push the exercise out to a future date.

769
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:06,660
Second line of comments has to do with the statement in the staff report.

770
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,060
Atrium property taxes are already the most affordable.

771
01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:16,940
Our atrium property tax are amongst the most affordable in Canada relative to other cities.

772
01:17:16,940 --> 01:17:32,360
So I would direct Council to a number of exhibits that I found in the last few days to rebut such a statement which seems to essentially dismiss concerns over property tax levels in the municipality.

773
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:39,480
page 2 is compiled by a real estate information

774
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:44,640
at a glomerator called Zucasa, it's color coded and you'll

775
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:49,680
note that Halifax is in the amber color which indicates that it's at the mid

776
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:56,740
to mid price level for property taxes. Page 3 is compiled by the Canadian

777
01:17:56,740 --> 01:17:59,480
in real estate association, same thing.

778
01:17:59,900 --> 01:18:08,200
HREM is a colored amber indicating mid-level property taxes in a cross-key and a comparison.

779
01:18:09,260 --> 01:18:15,220
So neither of those would suggest, would support the statement made in the staff report and

780
01:18:15,220 --> 01:18:17,320
would actually be counter to that information.

781
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:21,820
Page four, and there's a lot to take in there.

782
01:18:21,820 --> 01:18:27,200
One doesn't need to study it very hard to determine that all of those

783
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:37,460
borrow lines indicate that HRM is at the top end of both property tax on the commercial and the residential levels across the country.

784
01:18:38,780 --> 01:18:46,340
Page five and this one I like the best because it's completely opposite to the position of the staff report.

785
01:18:46,340 --> 01:18:53,120
It indicates that Halifax has the fourth highest level of taxation on multi-unit residential housing,

786
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,660
which is the industry that I am in.

787
01:18:55,940 --> 01:19:03,100
So back to the mayor's question earlier, we'll increase property taxes cause upward pressure on rents.

788
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:04,680
Yes, definitely for sure.

789
01:19:06,660 --> 01:19:13,740
We are not active in the industrial sector, but very concerning from an employment perspective that

790
01:19:13,740 --> 01:19:20,960
Halifax has the uninviable title of having the highest industrial tax per square foot across the country.

791
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:26,520
So where the state became from that Halifax has very affordable property taxes, I have no idea

792
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:31,960
because nothing seems to support that based on a fairly cursory search that I've done last few days.

793
01:19:33,860 --> 01:19:40,360
So I just want to switch gears for a minute to the my page 6, which is a graph that shows

794
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:45,640
those the staff levels at HREM and how they've grown over the last five years.

795
01:19:46,480 --> 01:19:50,200
There was a development moratorium brought in in 2004.

796
01:19:50,540 --> 01:19:52,320
A lot of people might remember it.

797
01:19:52,820 --> 01:19:55,880
A lot of staff reports and effort went into that at the time.

798
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:01,700
Justifying how smart growth would contribute to a more efficiently operated city.

799
01:20:03,100 --> 01:20:08,640
In the last five years, 70 to 80% of the growth has been in the multi-unit residential buildings.

800
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:16,780
The typical building is a concrete sprinkler, so it's beyond me how the number of staff in

801
01:20:16,780 --> 01:20:23,880
HREM continues to rise essentially proportionate to the change in population when these buildings

802
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:30,380
are so much more efficient to service in terms of fire, police, security, recreation.

803
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:35,080
So your time is up, would you just like to have a closing statement quickly?

804
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:46,140
So I would suggest that HREM needs to operate smarter more efficiently and review staffing levels across the forward to try to minimize property tax levels.

805
01:20:46,900 --> 01:20:51,160
Thank you very much, sir. Our next speaker is Don Mills.

806
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,540
After Don Mills is Don Bartol.

807
01:21:01,750 --> 01:21:02,830
Oh, sorry.

808
01:21:02,830 --> 01:21:12,050
Sorry Morning Council. Thank you for the opportunity and thank you for the service to our city. It's a tough job for sure.

809
01:21:13,490 --> 01:21:26,470
I'm a business owner, a property owner. My partner's I built a new building in Windmill Road during the height of the pandemic as a sign of confidence in this economy.

810
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:33,890
and so we own a 30,000 square foot commercial building in Dartmouth.

811
01:21:37,590 --> 01:21:53,190
I guess I want to start with the new Council members because you might not know this and Peter Foley talked about this a little bit, but we are not a low cost property tax regime.

812
01:21:53,190 --> 01:21:56,490
I mean, that is false.

813
01:21:57,010 --> 01:22:00,530
My former counsel used to tell me all the time that I had really low taxes.

814
01:22:01,310 --> 01:22:03,290
Well, you know, here's one consideration that I want.

815
01:22:03,470 --> 01:22:09,270
When you do the numbers that Peter showed you included all the rural areas.

816
01:22:09,850 --> 01:22:17,530
If you exclude the rural areas from the calculation, our residential taxes that for the urban

817
01:22:17,530 --> 01:22:22,530
area are number one, the highs in the country according to Altist Group, which do an annual

818
01:22:22,530 --> 01:22:29,390
benchmark property tax study. Number one, at 125, which is a tax rate. So we're

819
01:22:29,390 --> 01:22:34,890
already at the highest level. And on the commercial side, we're number two. So

820
01:22:34,890 --> 01:22:40,530
let's have a reality check. We are not at low cost environment. And on top of

821
01:22:40,530 --> 01:22:44,990
that, we live in the highest tax jurisdiction in the country. We have the

822
01:22:44,990 --> 01:22:52,790
highest marginal taxes, we have the lowest tax relief on the low side.

823
01:22:54,130 --> 01:22:56,190
It's a very expensive place to do business.

824
01:22:56,390 --> 01:23:02,910
And I'll tell you, coming through the pandemic, coming through the inflation period, looking

825
01:23:02,910 --> 01:23:06,250
at tariffs as a business person, I shudder at what's coming.

826
01:23:07,390 --> 01:23:10,710
None of you around the table lost your job during the pandemic.

827
01:23:11,810 --> 01:23:20,330
None of you lost salary during the pandemic. On the private side, people lost jobs and income and they're still trying to catch up from that period.

828
01:23:22,050 --> 01:23:27,330
And the tax rates that you put on, residents and businesses, add to that cost.

829
01:23:28,730 --> 01:23:35,390
Now, you know, I know you have, I've heard the presentations. There's lots of good things that you can support. I get it. It's a hard job.

830
01:23:36,570 --> 01:23:41,550
But I want to just give you a couple of examples of things that I think need to be done.

831
01:23:42,970 --> 01:23:47,530
You need to have and the mayor has advocated for this an audit of the operations.

832
01:23:47,910 --> 01:23:50,990
It's the only way you're going to find real true structural savings.

833
01:23:52,090 --> 01:23:53,570
You're not going to do it around this table.

834
01:23:54,010 --> 01:23:56,910
None of you have the detailed knowledge to be able to do that.

835
01:23:58,110 --> 01:24:01,210
You need to go and get some expert advice on doing this.

836
01:24:01,610 --> 01:24:04,110
Let me give you just one example that I've known personally.

837
01:24:04,110 --> 01:24:08,030
You know, the transit system is a mess in this region, that's a mess.

838
01:24:08,950 --> 01:24:11,230
You can spend as much money as you want.

839
01:24:11,690 --> 01:24:13,670
I don't think it's going to make any difference, frankly.

840
01:24:14,410 --> 01:24:20,470
But I had a presentation to the former mayor and the CEO about assessiboss.

841
01:24:21,170 --> 01:24:24,550
Assessiboss is a terrible service, just asked for users.

842
01:24:25,030 --> 01:24:29,110
My mother had disability and it was almost unusable.

843
01:24:29,110 --> 01:24:37,270
Now, with Jerry Post, the advocate for disability for the province and Joanne for Bernard, we met

844
01:24:37,270 --> 01:24:41,170
with the mayor and CEO, and we said, why don't you outsource that?

845
01:24:42,230 --> 01:24:46,490
Do you know how much it costs per ride today, or at least two years ago, three years ago?

846
01:24:46,850 --> 01:24:51,430
$37 per ride, that does not count the cost of the capital of the buses.

847
01:24:52,230 --> 01:24:55,310
How do you explain that as an efficiency?

848
01:24:55,310 --> 01:24:58,890
If you outsource that to the private sector, that number would come down.

849
01:24:59,090 --> 01:25:02,310
You wouldn't have to spend all the capital on the buses, right?

850
01:25:03,070 --> 01:25:05,910
And there are some accessible cabs now available.

851
01:25:06,970 --> 01:25:10,110
But you know why, you know what they told us at that time, you know why it couldn't happen?

852
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:16,950
Because you had negotiated a contract with the transit union that prevented you from outsourcing.

853
01:25:17,610 --> 01:25:24,490
So, in other words, you're going to spend forever paying several million dollars extra a year

854
01:25:24,490 --> 01:25:29,050
For a service that is not well considered by users, does that make any sense?

855
01:25:30,230 --> 01:25:34,430
So in my final moment, you're probably not going to make much difference this year.

856
01:25:35,710 --> 01:25:36,850
I hope that you do.

857
01:25:37,570 --> 01:25:39,130
The cost is outrageously high.

858
01:25:40,030 --> 01:25:44,010
But the fact of the matter is the only way that can make a difference going forth is doing

859
01:25:44,010 --> 01:25:48,770
a full review of your operations, finding the structural opportunities, and start thinking

860
01:25:48,770 --> 01:25:51,490
about outsourcing things that don't need to be done by the municipality.

861
01:25:53,710 --> 01:25:56,330
and I'll leave it there. Thank you.

862
01:25:56,930 --> 01:25:58,250
Thank you, Mr. Mills.

863
01:25:58,430 --> 01:26:01,490
If you will, Mr. Mills, Councillor Austin has a question for you.

864
01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:05,130
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank you, Mr. Mills.

865
01:26:05,370 --> 01:26:09,110
Just a question, reference the Alters report.

866
01:26:10,510 --> 01:26:14,710
That's tax rates, not the tax bill, like the out-of-pocket, right?

867
01:26:14,890 --> 01:26:19,250
Because I think that's probably where some of the discrepancy is coming from in terms of

868
01:26:19,250 --> 01:26:24,690
a percentage of assess value that is taxed in a jurisdiction.

869
01:26:25,230 --> 01:26:29,270
And it's the best way to compare tax rates across the country.

870
01:26:29,570 --> 01:26:33,270
They do it on the 11th largest cities, which Halifax is one of them.

871
01:26:33,810 --> 01:26:34,570
So it's available.

872
01:26:35,090 --> 01:26:36,210
Please have a look at it.

873
01:26:38,510 --> 01:26:42,790
Halifax has been trending on the high end for some time.

874
01:26:43,730 --> 01:26:49,030
Do you realize that in the last three years, in the last three years,

875
01:26:49,030 --> 01:26:55,190
the compounded tax increase. The last three years alone is 17.7 percent.

876
01:26:57,570 --> 01:26:58,150
You know, that's

877
01:26:58,150 --> 01:27:02,810
well above inflation. And by the way, one other point, our population is grown in the last

878
01:27:02,810 --> 01:27:09,630
five years, 18 percent. Where do we get the dividend of growth, the sharing of the cost of

879
01:27:09,630 --> 01:27:14,490
our cost of government? It hasn't happened. We spend 20 years in the first part of the

880
01:27:14,490 --> 01:27:19,230
malgamation with no population growth, no new taxpayers contributing to the tax bill.

881
01:27:19,230 --> 01:27:23,430
So, now we have 18% more, and we still can't make it work.

882
01:27:23,650 --> 01:27:27,310
How does, what's going on, it's not right.

883
01:27:30,510 --> 01:27:31,470
Thank you, Mr. Mills.

884
01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:37,970
Members of council and members of the public, we're going to take a short break, and we'll come back promptly at 11 a.m.

885
01:27:38,430 --> 01:27:38,730
Thank you.

886
01:42:06,030 --> 01:42:16,330
Well, everyone, maybe I'll give you guys a one 30 second warning that it is 11 o'clock. Well, welcome, everybody back.

887
01:43:43,220 --> 01:43:47,640
Thank you, everyone. Well, continue with our public participation.

888
01:43:54,280 --> 01:44:06,760
So, the next speaker on our list was Don Bureau, but it seems that that person is not available. So, next on our list is Pam Glou, Dorsche.

889
01:44:07,660 --> 01:44:09,240
And hereby Zoom, I believe.

890
01:44:11,850 --> 01:44:12,870
Thank you, Mr. Clark.

891
01:44:24,350 --> 01:44:29,070
My computer's a little slow. So, hi, everybody.

892
01:44:30,410 --> 01:44:32,050
I've been asked to...

893
01:44:32,050 --> 01:44:32,730
Oh, yeah.

894
01:44:33,350 --> 01:44:36,590
Welcome, Pam. Sorry, I was just waiting a second to make sure we had you on the screen.

895
01:44:36,750 --> 01:44:37,050
Thank you.

896
01:44:37,850 --> 01:44:38,950
Perfect. Are you good?

897
01:44:40,230 --> 01:44:41,370
Yes. Also.

898
01:44:41,570 --> 01:44:42,030
Okay, wonderful.

899
01:44:43,530 --> 01:44:45,990
First, hi everybody. I've been asked.

900
01:44:45,990 --> 01:44:52,950
And I recognize I only have about five minutes to speak to actually talk about the funding

901
01:44:52,950 --> 01:44:58,910
for just food action plan that HRM has been kind of spearheading with the Friendship

902
01:44:58,910 --> 01:44:59,970
Center and all kinds of things.

903
01:45:01,540 --> 01:45:09,820
I really wanted to talk about the impact this particular project has had with the in my own community.

904
01:45:11,220 --> 01:45:29,540
We've seen a dramatic increase of people who are coming in through the doors the last few years, of course, since COVID, around food security issues. And this particular project has allowed us to actually strengthen our food sovereignty opportunities. And it has helped us really take the approach around truth.

905
01:45:29,540 --> 01:45:36,840
reconciliation and building ongoing partnerships, not just within HRM, but even outside of HRM.

906
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:44,080
So, we've been able to work with on the way, the Union of Nova Scotia Nigma around the food,

907
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:48,300
traditional food security pieces, so it could be moose hunting, it could be preparation,

908
01:45:48,860 --> 01:45:54,200
it could be eels, it could be fiddle heads, so really building that traditional knowledge for our

909
01:45:54,200 --> 01:46:01,340
community here in the urban context which has truly made a huge impact. I also want to raise the

910
01:46:01,340 --> 01:46:08,740
importance of this right now. We are in precedent at times. We're on shore of our neighbor to the

911
01:46:08,740 --> 01:46:16,400
south. There's the threat of tariffs and we all know that the most impact will be felt on the most

912
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:23,800
marginalized communities. So, community members who are already struggling to pay their rent to

913
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:30,100
find appropriate foods and this project will allow us to actually help combat some of those pieces.

914
01:46:30,500 --> 01:46:36,060
It's going to happen very quickly when it does and it will be those individuals that will be impacted

915
01:46:36,060 --> 01:46:43,320
dramatically. And this project has brought community together in such a way that it is actually

916
01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:48,700
building around healthy communities, and I think that shouldn't be lost in this opportunity

917
01:46:48,700 --> 01:46:52,060
that HRM has to actually continue to support.

918
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:58,400
The network that has been developed as well has been, I think, one of the most amazing

919
01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:03,080
group of individuals that have come together to actually address food sovereignty and food

920
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:04,280
issues, food security.

921
01:47:04,900 --> 01:47:12,120
And I really want to stress that in order to have healthy communities, people can't be worried

922
01:47:12,120 --> 01:47:17,900
about where their next meal is coming from. The impact that this has had on my own community

923
01:47:17,900 --> 01:47:25,140
is actually has decreased opportunities for people who are making choices. Do I pay my rent or

924
01:47:25,140 --> 01:47:30,240
do I feed my family? So we're actually helping keep people housed as well and I don't want to lose

925
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:36,440
those really important pieces. I know somebody said to me, well this is a really small part

926
01:47:36,440 --> 01:47:43,500
It of the needs of the community, and it is, but it is probably one of the biggest

927
01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:48,900
mechanisms that actually allow our communities to actually be together in healthy ways.

928
01:47:49,660 --> 01:47:54,480
Not only are we keeping belly's bowl, we're keeping little kids out of, you know, emergencies

929
01:47:54,860 --> 01:47:57,740
for being sick because they're eating healthy.

930
01:47:58,220 --> 01:48:03,480
We're increasing knowledge and education around food security and how to actually prepare

931
01:48:03,480 --> 01:48:11,360
your own meals, having the opportunity to actually understand the processing of traditional

932
01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:17,320
meats and how that can work and how you can actually store that for long-term use.

933
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:22,000
So actually learning and being able to plan long-term on these things.

934
01:48:22,700 --> 01:48:24,940
Working within HRM has been amazing.

935
01:48:25,700 --> 01:48:31,520
We know now that we're going to be able to actually be planting in 2025 around our own community

936
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:36,080
gardens, and this will actually play a big piece even in the New Friendship Center because

937
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:41,200
part of what we're doing there as well is actually making sure food sovereignty is part

938
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:44,420
of that landscape that we're actually developing.

939
01:48:44,860 --> 01:48:51,780
So this is really working well to actually support us in ways that other funding just won't

940
01:48:51,780 --> 01:48:59,280
do, and it has helped us create the network to support not just community members but staff

941
01:48:59,280 --> 01:49:02,160
as well to actually help carry out these projects.

942
01:49:03,140 --> 01:49:07,560
And I just, I really want to stress, like, this is keeping little bellies full.

943
01:49:08,640 --> 01:49:14,900
This is keeping kids out of health care systems, and I don't want to lose that.

944
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:23,020
And I'm really hoping that HRM, that this is truly considered really true, important

945
01:49:23,020 --> 01:49:25,620
piece of what a healthy community is.

946
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:33,700
I'm a believer that healthy community is not just about buildings, it is about the people

947
01:49:33,700 --> 01:49:37,020
that are in it and how we actually interact with each other.

948
01:49:37,460 --> 01:49:41,460
And this has been a great leverage piece for us to actually work together.

949
01:49:42,100 --> 01:49:47,520
And I think that if HRM is able to actually continue with this project, I think there's

950
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:52,200
going to be even bigger impacts as we develop it and we move it forward.

951
01:49:52,620 --> 01:50:02,040
So I just I want to want it to thank everybody and I know I have a short time here, but this truly has been an amazing project and has truly made a difference.

952
01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:06,320
Thank you, Pam. Your time is up. You can have one quick closing sentence outside.

953
01:50:07,180 --> 01:50:13,500
Yeah, no, that's great. I just want to thank you all for taking the time and letting me have this conversation today. So thank you.

954
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:21,620
Thank you very much. Our next three speakers are first Ron Lubbitt and then

955
01:50:21,620 --> 01:50:27,480
Pakistan Romana and then Joe Nickerson. Welcome Mr. Lubbitt.

956
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:37,130
Okay, okay. I'm sorry, great. Look, thanks for having me today Ron Lubbitt, my

957
01:50:37,130 --> 01:50:43,250
passionate entrepreneur and born and raised halagonian. I started off at the age of

958
01:50:43,250 --> 01:50:45,710
21 started a company called Source Security.

959
01:50:45,910 --> 01:50:48,670
I was doing physical guarding for concerts, festivals,

960
01:50:48,670 --> 01:50:51,290
I actually recognized a few people that had exit

961
01:50:51,290 --> 01:50:52,410
from the Pope for no years ago.

962
01:50:52,510 --> 01:50:53,730
I won't mention names here at Council.

963
01:50:54,830 --> 01:50:56,870
But we did concerts like the Rolling Stones,

964
01:50:57,070 --> 01:50:58,230
Big Shows, had lots of fun.

965
01:50:58,370 --> 01:51:01,910
And I exited that company in 2017 after almost going bankrupt

966
01:51:01,910 --> 01:51:05,470
a few years earlier, and was lucky to set myself up financially

967
01:51:05,470 --> 01:51:07,290
for my family's future.

968
01:51:08,030 --> 01:51:09,350
So I'm one of the lucky Canadians.

969
01:51:10,390 --> 01:51:16,270
And this gave me a different focus for chapter two in business, more based on purpose, scale, and impact.

970
01:51:17,150 --> 01:51:20,630
I was looking at what sector to enter, and of course, I was looking at housing.

971
01:51:21,970 --> 01:51:26,450
I saw a lot of the red tape in complexity with development, and I looked at existing housing,

972
01:51:26,450 --> 01:51:30,370
what I'll call work force housing, or no, and actually occurring affordable housing.

973
01:51:30,930 --> 01:51:35,170
And I looked, there was four major players in the space. There was unfortunately, but they were their slum lords.

974
01:51:35,170 --> 01:51:42,250
non-profits that were having challenges getting capital and scaling, public

975
01:51:42,250 --> 01:51:47,710
publicly traded companies and institutions and entrepreneurs and family offices

976
01:51:47,710 --> 01:51:52,510
that were mostly chasing market rents. And so I thought wow there was a big

977
01:51:52,510 --> 01:51:57,550
opportunity to come in and revolutionize how housing and people interacted with

978
01:51:57,550 --> 01:52:02,650
one another. And so my company VDEP was born in 2018 and we're a certified

979
01:52:02,650 --> 01:52:05,530
by B-Corp, so we are certified to do good in the world.

980
01:52:06,150 --> 01:52:11,170
So we started in late 2018, buying some very challenging buildings, some of the stuff

981
01:52:11,170 --> 01:52:14,750
on Dawn Street, and Evans, which were condemned by police, we acquired those as our starting

982
01:52:14,750 --> 01:52:15,170
properties.

983
01:52:15,170 --> 01:52:17,310
It wasn't an easy process.

984
01:52:17,650 --> 01:52:21,750
Today, we have over 2,800 units between Winnipeg and Atlanta, Canada.

985
01:52:22,490 --> 01:52:25,950
And our average rents are $925, including heat and water.

986
01:52:26,810 --> 01:52:29,910
This success comes from a few different aspects of our business.

987
01:52:29,910 --> 01:52:33,750
One, at 2,800 units, we don't have property managers,

988
01:52:33,970 --> 01:52:34,470
releasing agents.

989
01:52:35,010 --> 01:52:36,990
We've created a new model that allows the customers

990
01:52:36,990 --> 01:52:39,010
to manage the buildings, almost like Uber drivers.

991
01:52:39,230 --> 01:52:40,670
So our customers that work somewhere

992
01:52:40,670 --> 01:52:43,490
in the Canadian economy, they manage these buildings

993
01:52:43,490 --> 01:52:44,890
and we pay them through a rent credit.

994
01:52:46,190 --> 01:52:48,450
And that allows us to be a low-cost operator,

995
01:52:48,570 --> 01:52:49,890
have more people doing less work.

996
01:52:49,990 --> 01:52:52,110
It doesn't put bread on the table, but it helps them get ahead.

997
01:52:52,770 --> 01:52:55,930
The second innovative thing we do is we build what's

998
01:52:55,930 --> 01:52:57,250
called community contractors.

999
01:52:57,590 --> 01:52:59,370
This is where we look to our customers

1000
01:52:59,370 --> 01:53:00,710
versus say, what are your skill sets?

1001
01:53:01,410 --> 01:53:03,130
Can we put you to work through paint,

1002
01:53:03,390 --> 01:53:05,050
cock mud, those types of things?

1003
01:53:05,270 --> 01:53:07,710
And we approve them and train them as community contractors.

1004
01:53:07,890 --> 01:53:10,470
We have lots of folks that do work at the asset level.

1005
01:53:10,610 --> 01:53:11,890
We save 35%.

1006
01:53:12,300 --> 01:53:13,730
They have a sense of pride and ownership.

1007
01:53:14,250 --> 01:53:15,330
And they behave differently.

1008
01:53:15,890 --> 01:53:18,050
And it allows them to put money in their pockets.

1009
01:53:19,050 --> 01:53:22,190
And the last is treating customers as customer.

1010
01:53:22,310 --> 01:53:25,070
When I entered the space, it was 10 versus landlord.

1011
01:53:25,310 --> 01:53:25,830
And still is.

1012
01:53:26,310 --> 01:53:28,590
And sometimes when I'm in meetings in Toronto,

1013
01:53:28,590 --> 01:53:32,070
I don't want to use the word customer, people don't know what I'm talking about.

1014
01:53:32,270 --> 01:53:33,890
These are customers that pay rent, they're customers.

1015
01:53:35,550 --> 01:53:39,190
Residents may be used mostly, it's tenants, and so our business is a little different.

1016
01:53:39,410 --> 01:53:46,050
We look at what else can we do for the customers, and so we sell our customers products and services

1017
01:53:46,050 --> 01:53:49,350
like telehealth through their phones, this healthcare is a challenge, so we have a deal with

1018
01:53:49,350 --> 01:53:49,810
telehealth.

1019
01:53:49,970 --> 01:53:51,590
We sell Bluetooth locks or Amazon.

1020
01:53:52,270 --> 01:53:58,570
Our model, so innovative that we're actually doing work with none of it housing in the

1021
01:53:58,570 --> 01:54:06,670
who activated customers. So, you know, now's the challenge is unsustainable costs like taxes.

1022
01:54:07,050 --> 01:54:11,950
And so, for our business and Phil mentioned this, you know, he mentioned 40% affordable.

1023
01:54:12,190 --> 01:54:17,590
Most of our units are 60 to 80% long-term affordability all done through the federal government

1024
01:54:17,590 --> 01:54:21,610
and CMHC programs. And we wouldn't be where we are today if we didn't have that in place.

1025
01:54:21,890 --> 01:54:28,250
Although, we are at conflict with 30% in some cases, 30% tax increases in our portfolio.

1026
01:54:28,990 --> 01:54:30,230
And it's a major problem.

1027
01:54:30,350 --> 01:54:31,930
It's really inhibiting our affordability.

1028
01:54:32,650 --> 01:54:35,110
And so we are at odds that just doesn't work.

1029
01:54:35,390 --> 01:54:37,310
When rent caps came into play inflation,

1030
01:54:38,090 --> 01:54:43,590
was that hand and rental, sorry, interest rate hikes,

1031
01:54:43,890 --> 01:54:46,810
we went to the province, we own the 500 block

1032
01:54:46,810 --> 01:54:50,730
and different neighborhoods and throw it at your end.

1033
01:54:50,810 --> 01:54:52,050
And we went to them and said, let's do a pilot.

1034
01:54:52,230 --> 01:54:53,750
We need capital here for CAPEX

1035
01:54:53,750 --> 01:54:55,610
and we'll deliver long-term affordability.

1036
01:54:55,970 --> 01:54:56,390
And we did.

1037
01:54:56,390 --> 01:55:01,790
We did a pilot with the province, but again, we are having a hard time even delivering

1038
01:55:01,790 --> 01:55:05,810
on that because of the tax increases which were not budgeted.

1039
01:55:05,970 --> 01:55:07,130
So we're forced to sell units.

1040
01:55:07,210 --> 01:55:12,730
We're now into agreements to sell 425 of our 20-hundred units because we cannot sustain

1041
01:55:12,730 --> 01:55:13,670
it through taxes.

1042
01:55:15,270 --> 01:55:19,950
And so, you know, what we're asking is HRM to create a tax relief program and send a five

1043
01:55:19,950 --> 01:55:22,610
of landlords to commit the long-term affordability.

1044
01:55:23,690 --> 01:55:29,430
Non-profits receive a 50% tax break, not because of their low rents, but because they are in registered nonprofit.

1045
01:55:30,390 --> 01:55:32,150
And I think we have to be flexible.

1046
01:55:32,750 --> 01:55:36,990
We have to be stubborn on vision and flexible on execution anytime like this.

1047
01:55:39,540 --> 01:55:40,940
Thank you very much.

1048
01:55:41,140 --> 01:55:42,180
Yes, your time is up.

1049
01:55:43,980 --> 01:55:49,400
Excuse me, sorry, Mr. Lubick, but Deputy Mayor Mancini has a question for you if you're okay with that.

1050
01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:49,480
Yeah.

1051
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:51,320
It's wrong.

1052
01:55:51,420 --> 01:55:52,140
Good to see you.

1053
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:53,340
I hope things are well.

1054
01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:55,760
I know Ron's has property in the Dr.

1055
01:55:55,940 --> 01:56:01,840
Smith North area and E Stark with area and thank you for those properties because they

1056
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:03,620
are that affordable housing unit.

1057
01:56:04,100 --> 01:56:08,760
You know, you're speaking of rent caps and assessments and property cap and the previous

1058
01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:15,920
speakers that were also landowners that spoke to that also, you've never been shy to sit

1059
01:56:15,920 --> 01:56:17,760
down in front of politicians.

1060
01:56:18,260 --> 01:56:23,380
And so my question is similar to Councillor Austin to a previous speaker is, what's your

1061
01:56:23,380 --> 01:56:26,620
conversation with the province because a lot of the stuff you're talking about, again,

1062
01:56:26,780 --> 01:56:27,320
is not us.

1063
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:29,620
So, have you had those conversations with the premier?

1064
01:56:29,900 --> 01:56:35,500
Have you had the conversations with the minister of housing and if so, what's the response

1065
01:56:35,500 --> 01:56:36,180
you're getting from them?

1066
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:39,780
Great question, Tony, and good to see you as well.

1067
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:43,260
And I'd say that's everyone's problem, you know, because when I first started this with

1068
01:56:43,260 --> 01:56:47,180
Mike Savage and our past premier, it's not us, it's not us, there was a lot of it.

1069
01:56:47,180 --> 01:56:50,820
right both sides that's not so I will say this time I went to the federal

1070
01:56:50,820 --> 01:56:55,460
government I had I had breakfast with Danny said he's the head of policy for

1071
01:56:55,460 --> 01:56:59,660
the federal government so what can we do and we've since we had a call with our

1072
01:56:59,660 --> 01:57:05,360
mayor today had a policy and said let's be very strategic on this and and let's

1073
01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:10,100
all get together in one room and see how we saw the problem and in that call where

1074
01:57:10,100 --> 01:57:14,740
I had you know talked about or and certainly Danny saying can we use some of the

1075
01:57:14,740 --> 01:57:20,460
accelerator funds to start a program to reduce taxes for those who are committing to long-term

1076
01:57:20,460 --> 01:57:27,060
affordability. No, Brainer. I mean, you think about an innovative move like that that

1077
01:57:27,060 --> 01:57:31,740
would really put Halifax first and really put us on the map as far as being bold to solve

1078
01:57:32,340 --> 01:57:38,340
long-term affordability challenges for landlords that want to keep rents lower for long-term.

1079
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:44,620
And so, you know, that was certainly the conversation. And I think a pilot like that, if there were

1080
01:57:44,620 --> 01:57:48,800
a rebate or part of the budget that was put aside that was funded through the federal

1081
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:51,580
government through the accelerator program, I think we're in the money.

1082
01:57:51,860 --> 01:57:56,920
You know, I think that seems to be win-win and a no-brainer approach, and so I haven't

1083
01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:59,600
talked to the problems, but I just went right to the federal government in this.

1084
01:58:00,320 --> 01:58:06,260
Just a follow-up question on that, so your definition of affordable housing.

1085
01:58:07,540 --> 01:58:08,120
Great question.

1086
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:11,300
I think that that question always comes back to the customer.

1087
01:58:11,300 --> 01:58:15,500
So my definition is for our customer is our average rents are $925.

1088
01:58:16,460 --> 01:58:19,480
So my definition of affordability is different than others.

1089
01:58:19,660 --> 01:58:21,340
It's what can my customer afford?

1090
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:26,500
And so, you know, even with, I go back to the pandemic

1091
01:58:26,500 --> 01:58:31,480
and when inflation hit, I mean, we were raising rents much above what we had ever

1092
01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:32,580
done before on unit terms.

1093
01:58:32,620 --> 01:58:34,260
We didn't want to do that, but we had to stay alive.

1094
01:58:34,660 --> 01:58:37,920
And then we had to do an innovative deal with the province, which did work.

1095
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:43,860
you know if you drive by the 500 block you'll see a big a large mural there

1096
01:58:43,860 --> 01:58:46,800
those properties look very different that was with the help of the province we

1097
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:52,580
had to create a new vision for a community to turn it around and so yeah I

1098
01:58:52,580 --> 01:58:56,360
think it is time that everybody says we're in this you know this isn't just a

1099
01:58:56,360 --> 01:59:00,920
municipal problem it's not it's not a public sector problem it's it's everyone's

1100
01:59:00,920 --> 01:59:05,840
problem and I think we have to work together and solve this together versus

1101
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:07,040
it's your problem, it's your problem.

1102
01:59:07,380 --> 01:59:10,100
It's interesting to comment about using the term customer.

1103
01:59:10,640 --> 01:59:12,260
When I first got elected in 2016,

1104
01:59:12,500 --> 01:59:14,880
I started referring to residents as customer.

1105
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:17,420
And I took a lot of heat because we're not customers.

1106
01:59:17,740 --> 01:59:19,000
We're residents, we're taxpayers.

1107
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:21,380
But the point that's being missed is you take care

1108
01:59:21,380 --> 01:59:23,220
of a customer, you understand what the customer needs

1109
01:59:23,220 --> 01:59:24,740
and you address those needs.

1110
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:26,300
That's when you and I come from that private sector.

1111
01:59:26,740 --> 01:59:27,420
So I understand that.

1112
01:59:27,500 --> 01:59:29,100
Thank you for your time, ma'am.

1113
01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:30,860
Thank you.

1114
01:59:31,300 --> 01:59:33,700
One more, Councillor has a question.

1115
01:59:33,700 --> 01:59:38,980
if you're alright with that? Councilor Hartley. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you so

1116
01:59:38,980 --> 01:59:44,360
much for coming today. I really appreciate the innovation, obviously, your enthusiasm.

1117
01:59:45,260 --> 01:59:50,980
For what it's worth, like, Councillors like me were taken notes, right? Like, the rate cap is

1118
01:59:50,980 --> 01:59:56,680
highly problematic. You know, where is our return? Like, where's the dividend of growth? I think

1119
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:57,780
that's another thing that we've heard.

1120
01:59:58,140 --> 01:59:59,860
I appreciate you speaking to the concepts.

1121
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:27,220
That's a long-term affordability. You're saying 925? Is that for a bachelor or one bedroom? What is that? Our average will be two bedroom, including heat, hot water. So, so our, just to be clear, more than a lot of nonprofits. Yeah, that's, and I am very interested in picking up your idea. Like I think that there is value in merit there, and I appreciate you so much coming, coming forward today. So, when you say long term, what does that mean?

1122
02:00:27,220 --> 02:00:32,060
Well, our mandate is to have long-term affordable commitments.

1123
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:33,780
That's a company private mandate.

1124
02:00:33,940 --> 02:00:36,680
But we've done affordability commitments with CMHC

1125
02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:38,660
that really locks and loads that.

1126
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,140
I mean, there's your federal programs and Phil had mentioned that earlier.

1127
02:00:41,420 --> 02:00:50,120
So Vita would be the largest private lender and utilization of CMHC

1128
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:51,580
MLI select program in the country.

1129
02:00:51,780 --> 02:00:54,620
And so we're very dedicated to that program.

1130
02:00:54,620 --> 02:00:57,240
and we've used it, and it's been very successful.

1131
02:00:57,560 --> 02:01:00,900
But again, it doesn't work with the budgets

1132
02:01:00,900 --> 02:01:04,360
were never set to have 25, 30% tax increases, right?

1133
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:05,420
And so those are our odds.

1134
02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:10,100
And again, I'll just repeat, we are selling 425 units

1135
02:01:10,100 --> 02:01:12,260
because we cannot sustain the tax increases.

1136
02:01:12,800 --> 02:01:14,440
I don't have public capital,

1137
02:01:14,780 --> 02:01:16,480
and I don't have free capital like nonprofits.

1138
02:01:17,120 --> 02:01:19,360
So we are stuck in the middle trying to make this work,

1139
02:01:19,440 --> 02:01:20,240
and we're doing our damage.

1140
02:01:21,780 --> 02:01:22,360
That's great.

1141
02:01:22,620 --> 02:01:23,180
Thank you so much.

1142
02:01:23,180 --> 02:01:26,100
I really appreciate your time and I hope to see more of you. Thank you.

1143
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:33,520
We have two more buzzed in, so you get to stay and answer a few more if that's all right.

1144
02:01:34,380 --> 02:01:39,440
Councillor Young. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Ron.

1145
02:01:40,120 --> 02:01:48,460
It's really interesting to hear this. Councillor Haraldon mentioned about the long term low

1146
02:01:48,460 --> 02:01:54,080
rights, so she kind of took my question away. I just want to add to it. So is it, um, is there any

1147
02:01:54,080 --> 02:02:03,700
possibility for the customer to get to buy into at least the own during that period of time?

1148
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:10,740
In our model? Yes. Yeah, so, so, uh, no, not currently, although I will say we invested in a

1149
02:02:10,740 --> 02:02:15,960
company called Addy Invest and they're out of Vancouver and what they do is they let customers,

1150
02:02:17,020 --> 02:02:22,180
you know individuals and neighborhoods invest a dollar into a project and so

1151
02:02:22,180 --> 02:02:26,400
we're an owner of that company, small owner, it was just an innovative housing

1152
02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:31,360
company at Ivanku, we haven't plugged into our model just yet and you know we

1153
02:02:31,360 --> 02:02:35,900
are trying to tackle that problem in a different way so we we have a 55

1154
02:02:37,400 --> 02:02:42,520
modular development in Kentville, so 55 units of affordable net zero home

1155
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:49,100
ownership and we'll help finance those units off-roam

1156
02:02:49,100 --> 02:02:51,040
balancing with customers, helping them with deposits,

1157
02:02:51,040 --> 02:02:53,980
et cetera, but we haven't, it just doesn't work like

1158
02:02:53,980 --> 02:02:56,380
that from an ownership standpoint because they're not

1159
02:02:56,380 --> 02:02:56,860
condos.

1160
02:02:56,940 --> 02:02:57,620
These are rental units.

1161
02:02:58,660 --> 02:02:58,880
OK.

1162
02:02:58,980 --> 02:03:04,420
May I follow up with your turnover rate or how long do

1163
02:03:04,420 --> 02:03:06,720
they usually stay, your customers?

1164
02:03:07,720 --> 02:03:12,500
So our turnover rates were 30% in this asset class, pre-pandemic

1165
02:03:12,500 --> 02:03:19,300
they went down to sub 10. The training back, you know, 17, 15 to 17. I would say the new

1166
02:03:20,000 --> 02:03:24,060
migration has caused this new, not caused, but there's been a new customer that moves around

1167
02:03:24,060 --> 02:03:29,980
a lot faster, which, you know, that does make units available faster, versus the long-term

1168
02:03:29,980 --> 02:03:34,000
halagony in customer that we've had customers have been there for 20 years, some of our places.

1169
02:03:34,260 --> 02:03:37,960
Yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah. May your phone wars next.

1170
02:03:40,220 --> 02:03:43,700
Thanks very much, Ron, for taking time to come and talk to us about your very important

1171
02:03:43,700 --> 02:03:50,920
to work today, three short snappers for you, who pays in your ecosystem for a tax increase?

1172
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:56,620
Will you be forced to sell off more property to cover new tax increases?

1173
02:03:57,720 --> 02:04:00,120
And if the property is your force to sell, what becomes of them?

1174
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:02,520
Do they revert to market rent or what happens to them?

1175
02:04:02,700 --> 02:04:03,900
So great question, great decision.

1176
02:04:04,140 --> 02:04:08,960
Mrs. So first question was, who pays for a tax increase?

1177
02:04:09,020 --> 02:04:10,380
Yes, so who pays is the customer?

1178
02:04:10,840 --> 02:04:12,620
And actually, I'll just expand on that.

1179
02:04:12,620 --> 02:04:18,660
But the one of the things that I think that is interesting here is the customers, when

1180
02:04:18,660 --> 02:04:22,420
we entered the asset class, didn't understand that everything impacts a customer.

1181
02:04:22,580 --> 02:04:27,440
So even when, you know, we've heard of, like, a corn is a group and, you know, they came

1182
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:30,600
to some of our properties and said, okay, you know, like, you seem to be a great person

1183
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:32,140
and doing good things, so we'll back off.

1184
02:04:32,480 --> 02:04:36,620
And I said, well, we should be working together because the customer pays for inflationary

1185
02:04:36,620 --> 02:04:36,960
costs.

1186
02:04:37,500 --> 02:04:39,160
It is always the customer.

1187
02:04:42,200 --> 02:04:46,820
In one other piece I was going to say is we've also moved to what I'll call a co-state

1188
02:04:46,820 --> 02:04:47,700
holder environment.

1189
02:04:47,980 --> 02:04:52,180
And so when you're a customer, you get a video that says, let us tell you how this works.

1190
02:04:52,660 --> 02:04:55,820
If you pay around on time and people don't have to chase you around, we save costs.

1191
02:04:56,540 --> 02:05:00,460
If you recycle and we don't get fined by the municipality, we'd have garbage costs which

1192
02:05:00,460 --> 02:05:00,800
increase.

1193
02:05:01,240 --> 02:05:07,820
If you tell us about pest issues and you utilize less utility, you and the customers pay less

1194
02:05:07,820 --> 02:05:08,000
rent.

1195
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:14,200
because the operating costs come down. That is mind-blowing. Mind-blowing because there's a friction between tenant and landlord.

1196
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:21,840
And so we're big on customer onboarding, and yes, the customers get passed off the expenses of the business, and of course taxes is there.

1197
02:05:22,060 --> 02:05:29,520
And I mentioned earlier, you know, when the pandemic hit, we were starting to put rents up all much higher than 925.

1198
02:05:29,520 --> 02:05:34,920
You know, one better than getting up to 1100. I'm uncomfortable when I see that. And our team's saying, we don't do it, we're out.

1199
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:40,220
But, and now, to your second question, Andy, we're selling, you know, the units we're

1200
02:05:40,220 --> 02:05:43,940
selling there because it's off brand, I'm not going, and I'm not saying that there's

1201
02:05:43,940 --> 02:05:49,720
not a customer for it, but to put a two-bedroom to $2,000 is off brand for us, and it doesn't

1202
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:50,840
align with what we're trying to do.

1203
02:05:50,940 --> 02:05:54,540
So we will sell that to customers who will have to put those brands up.

1204
02:05:54,980 --> 02:05:58,260
They just will have to, but it's the only financial way to make it successful.

1205
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:03,120
So, the units that are at average in the 900 range will, we've heard, to market when you're

1206
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:04,460
forced to sell them by increased tax rates.

1207
02:06:04,460 --> 02:06:06,220
It's correct, they'll all be gone, yeah.

1208
02:06:06,780 --> 02:06:08,780
And look, we had to move quickly.

1209
02:06:09,100 --> 02:06:10,240
I'm a private business owner.

1210
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:11,800
I'm not gonna sacrifice my family

1211
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:13,180
for what we're doing here.

1212
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:15,800
And so yes, that was charge one.

1213
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:19,600
We would like to have an innovative program

1214
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:20,860
like non-profits.

1215
02:06:21,060 --> 02:06:23,740
Kelona has some very aggressive programs too for developers.

1216
02:06:24,420 --> 02:06:27,620
But like non-profits who receive a 50% tax break,

1217
02:06:28,280 --> 02:06:31,260
if we're stubborn on vision and flexible on execution,

1218
02:06:32,040 --> 02:06:32,700
it should work.

1219
02:06:32,700 --> 02:06:37,820
And I think if there was a slice of the budget, if it was $10 million, which would be less than a percentage,

1220
02:06:38,240 --> 02:06:41,400
funded by the federal government, no brainer, no brainer.

1221
02:06:41,500 --> 02:06:47,800
And we should be leading the path here in Halifax for the country on how to solve affordable housing.

1222
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:48,920
And it is a game of inches.

1223
02:06:49,420 --> 02:06:51,740
And it's just going to take, there's not one silver bullet.

1224
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:53,760
You have to move at this thing at all sides, right?

1225
02:06:54,080 --> 02:06:55,160
So yeah, thanks for your question.

1226
02:06:56,600 --> 02:06:57,260
Thank you.

1227
02:06:57,500 --> 02:06:59,320
Two more Councillors haven't buzzed in.

1228
02:07:00,600 --> 02:07:01,340
Councillor Hinch.

1229
02:07:01,340 --> 02:07:12,260
Thank you Madam Chair. Ron, I just want to know, is any of your stock based on income levels?

1230
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:22,720
So when you say stock based on income levels, sorry. So rent based on income levels.

1231
02:07:23,060 --> 02:07:30,160
I mean, part of our screening process is to ask customers what their current income levels are.

1232
02:07:30,160 --> 02:07:35,380
We do want them to be successful. If someone has an income level of $1,000 and the rent is

1233
02:07:36,580 --> 02:07:43,600
$925 we know that we are not setting them up for success. So so we ask our customers in advance during

1234
02:07:43,600 --> 02:07:48,720
an application process what their income levels are. Are you part of the subsidy programs at the

1235
02:07:48,720 --> 02:07:53,180
process? We would have I probably lost sight. Yes, we would we have

1236
02:07:54,480 --> 02:08:00,100
We have customers that are certainly subsidized by the government and we have some direct programs.

1237
02:08:00,100 --> 02:08:04,220
I believe with government, we certainly have deals with ICANN's abs and add some house

1238
02:08:04,220 --> 02:08:08,260
other nonprofits for sure, but we are not directly connected.

1239
02:08:08,400 --> 02:08:10,120
These would just be things that happen.

1240
02:08:10,480 --> 02:08:10,520
Yeah.

1241
02:08:11,300 --> 02:08:11,920
Thank you.

1242
02:08:12,220 --> 02:08:12,320
Yeah.

1243
02:08:13,740 --> 02:08:15,680
Kelsa Hartling, you have one more chance.

1244
02:08:16,660 --> 02:08:18,880
Thank you so much and then I promise I'll let you go.

1245
02:08:19,100 --> 02:08:20,060
But you've just been so great.

1246
02:08:23,060 --> 02:08:29,840
I'm just wondering if you would tell us about your experience with bylaws and building

1247
02:08:29,840 --> 02:08:31,000
in HRM.

1248
02:08:31,420 --> 02:08:37,280
If you could speak to whether there have been any challenges setbacks or whether you

1249
02:08:37,280 --> 02:08:43,740
see opportunities that we have not yet explored or alternatively, if you want to perhaps comment

1250
02:08:43,740 --> 02:08:46,780
on the way the development has rolled out in the last couple of years.

1251
02:08:46,780 --> 02:08:53,040
So before you answer that, sir, I guess it is better to take that offline, because we're on

1252
02:08:53,040 --> 02:09:00,920
budgets, and that's planning and development. Well, I would only in so far as perhaps it affects

1253
02:09:00,920 --> 02:09:06,280
your bottom line. Yeah, and I would say for the most part, and this was part of the design of our

1254
02:09:06,280 --> 02:09:11,820
business model, we buy buildings, we don't go into a unit to renovate unless someone's toilets broken.

1255
02:09:12,100 --> 02:09:16,060
Okay. Right. Okay. So we don't really run into lot of problems, and that was done by design,

1256
02:09:16,060 --> 02:09:20,060
mine only because when I had the security company and I would get a call from a compliance

1257
02:09:20,060 --> 02:09:25,620
officer to say the word security is 0.1 inches or 0.1 centimeters, 2 wide and I had to redo

1258
02:09:25,620 --> 02:09:27,700
all my uniforms that pissed me off.

1259
02:09:28,020 --> 02:09:30,680
And so I try to stay out of the compliance.

1260
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:37,420
And so we do very light touch with the properties, which is also allowed us to scale so quickly.

1261
02:09:39,000 --> 02:09:43,640
And I haven't had those talent challenges, but I've stayed intentionally out of the way

1262
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:44,360
that stuff.

1263
02:09:44,580 --> 02:09:44,820
Okay.

1264
02:09:44,820 --> 02:09:46,440
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

1265
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:51,980
Thank you, Mr. Love. It was a great sales pitch.

1266
02:09:52,740 --> 02:09:57,140
As well. Our next speaker is Paxton Romana.

1267
02:09:59,660 --> 02:10:03,620
Romana? My apologies if I mispronounced.

1268
02:10:04,860 --> 02:10:11,400
No, you're right. Can you? Oh, thank you. Sorry, I didn't realize you were right there on Zoom.

1269
02:10:12,480 --> 02:10:17,100
No worries. Can you hear me? All right. Yes, we can hear you and we can see you and thank you.

1270
02:10:17,100 --> 02:10:18,580
You have five minutes, please.

1271
02:10:19,080 --> 02:10:19,360
Percy?

1272
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:21,460
Good morning.

1273
02:10:21,700 --> 02:10:22,420
My name is Paxton.

1274
02:10:22,740 --> 02:10:23,800
I'm a resident of District 8.

1275
02:10:24,360 --> 02:10:26,040
I'm addressing you virtually today

1276
02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:28,200
to encourage you to consider as counsel

1277
02:10:28,200 --> 02:10:29,620
what would make HRM better.

1278
02:10:30,980 --> 02:10:34,060
Even in communities that want more traffic cops,

1279
02:10:34,280 --> 02:10:36,860
which I don't think would make any community safer

1280
02:10:36,860 --> 02:10:38,480
as many have said before me,

1281
02:10:39,120 --> 02:10:45,240
having a tank or having a tank present

1282
02:10:45,240 --> 02:10:48,620
doesn't communicate, communicate, communicate, safety.

1283
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:52,560
It creates a military state, and it's a steep downfall.

1284
02:10:55,400 --> 02:10:58,220
And there, sorry, bear with me.

1285
02:10:58,320 --> 02:11:01,180
I have my notes on my computer, and it's not there yet.

1286
02:11:01,660 --> 02:11:03,400
It tells your constituents that you're

1287
02:11:03,400 --> 02:11:06,280
going to treat them as if you were at war with them by a police.

1288
02:11:07,200 --> 02:11:12,700
And it doesn't matter if you see armored vehicles or as just

1289
02:11:12,700 --> 02:11:18,820
trucks, the community has said no. They have consistently said no. Every public consultation

1290
02:11:18,820 --> 02:11:23,360
I've been privileged enough to participate in has said no to any funding towards a tank.

1291
02:11:24,120 --> 02:11:30,340
Yet, it's already, you tell us it's already been acquired. But why was it when it's always

1292
02:11:30,340 --> 02:11:35,180
been opposed? Why are we continuing to overfund the police and cutting any prevention efforts

1293
02:11:35,180 --> 02:11:42,200
it's like the use advocate program in community that intervention programs, why are we spending

1294
02:11:42,200 --> 02:11:47,380
so much on commitment to violence and intimidation when the police force has a documented history

1295
02:11:47,700 --> 02:11:52,020
of murdering our neighbors, our neighbors who most often just need it help and care.

1296
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:58,380
We don't even have a policy to set a standard of conduct for operating this, not that any

1297
02:11:58,380 --> 02:12:04,820
policy has kept least from killing people. From killing people the most basic rule of community safety.

1298
02:12:05,640 --> 02:12:11,560
This massive weapon is also an OHS repressed and I think most people would consider the risk of

1299
02:12:11,560 --> 02:12:17,740
a back injury and OHS concern. One that increases when funding for snow plows and salted sidewalks

1300
02:12:17,740 --> 02:12:23,740
gets cut or misused for tanks. The fact that this was framed as an OHS concern should also feel

1301
02:12:23,740 --> 02:12:28,400
disrespectful to you. This was an expense that the public has said no to, that council

1302
02:12:28,400 --> 02:12:34,000
has said no to. This was a rare moment of clarity when we agreed that a tank or increased

1303
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:39,560
weaponry for police would be used to embolden police brutality specifically in anti-black racism.

1304
02:12:40,260 --> 02:12:47,800
We didn't solve racism since 2020 and police violence still disproportionately effects by

1305
02:12:47,800 --> 02:12:54,000
pop communities. Over 100 officers were present at a peaceful demonstration put on by the

1306
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:59,980
MIGMAL Rights Association last week. A demonstration against violence committed by police against the

1307
02:12:59,980 --> 02:13:05,320
MIGMAL community. I can't imagine what could have happened if a tank had been there. Nonetheless,

1308
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:10,340
their overwhelming presence was a very clear indication that racism is alive and well within the

1309
02:13:10,340 --> 02:13:16,600
police force. You've been seeing so many numbers thrown at you for weeks. I've been present for a

1310
02:13:16,600 --> 02:13:18,800
a lot of these meetings, I watch these on YouTube,

1311
02:13:19,640 --> 02:13:20,660
and reading through the bell,

1312
02:13:20,860 --> 02:13:22,820
I almost went cross-eyed and I read for a living.

1313
02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:26,260
And it's so easy for these to just become numbers

1314
02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:28,340
even when you're trying to put intention

1315
02:13:28,960 --> 02:13:31,100
into your work as a thoughtful person,

1316
02:13:31,360 --> 02:13:33,100
but as community members,

1317
02:13:33,460 --> 02:13:35,740
as people who can see just how much your constituents

1318
02:13:35,740 --> 02:13:37,460
are struggling with the cost of living,

1319
02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:40,140
with the epidemic of homicide,

1320
02:13:40,380 --> 02:13:42,980
with the housing crisis, with the mental health crisis,

1321
02:13:42,980 --> 02:13:47,960
I encourage you to remember how impactful these things are and to consider what serving

1322
02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:49,640
your community with care means.

1323
02:13:50,180 --> 02:13:53,900
Would you rather be a governing body that's connected to your community that listens

1324
02:13:53,900 --> 02:13:58,580
to the core needs of your community and that cares for youth growing up here in the future

1325
02:13:58,580 --> 02:13:59,640
of HRM?

1326
02:14:00,260 --> 02:14:04,420
Or would you rather choose this commitment to intimidation and to violence and to continue

1327
02:14:04,420 --> 02:14:09,720
to not prioritize things like preventive cancer screenings or firefighters, PPE for search

1328
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:16,040
rescue teams use advocacy programs and accessibility efforts. I encourage you to really consider

1329
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:20,600
what it means to show up for your community with care when you're considering this budget.

1330
02:14:21,200 --> 02:14:21,780
Thank you for your time.

1331
02:14:24,250 --> 02:14:25,330
Thank you very much, Paxton.

1332
02:14:27,150 --> 02:14:34,290
Our next speaker is Joe Nickerson and then Robert Summerby Murray and then Matthew Hans-Bartiger.

1333
02:14:37,130 --> 02:14:42,770
Welcome, Joe. Morning. I'm a long-winded speaker, so I'm going to read from

1334
02:14:42,770 --> 02:14:47,930
notes to keep me on time. So good morning council members. My name is Joe

1335
02:14:47,930 --> 02:14:52,070
Nickerson and I'm a partner at Sidewalk Red. We at Sidewalk Red are a

1336
02:14:52,070 --> 02:14:55,430
Halifax based apartment developer focused on rebuilding neighborhoods in

1337
02:14:55,430 --> 02:14:59,450
downtown Dartmouth and Halifax. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

1338
02:15:00,050 --> 02:15:29,930
I want to address the proposed property tax increase for 2025-26, and explain why rising real-state taxes will undermine the very growth that Halifax needs to thrive. I'll also present a specific development example that will require council support to generate future tax revenue, and which will be critical to funding the infrastructure needs to sustain Halifax's growth. So Halifax is at a turning point. The city is experiencing increasing

1339
02:15:29,930 --> 02:15:34,630
increasing demand for housing, driven by population growth and a thriving economy, but

1340
02:15:34,630 --> 02:15:39,450
to keep pace with this growth and make Halifax more affordable and accessible, we need

1341
02:15:39,450 --> 02:15:41,890
to incentivize development, not discourage it.

1342
02:15:42,950 --> 02:15:47,030
We need to incentivize housing and grow our tax base.

1343
02:15:47,450 --> 02:15:52,050
We understand that property taxes are vital revenue source for HRM, and there's no question

1344
02:15:52,050 --> 02:15:52,730
about that.

1345
02:15:53,350 --> 02:15:56,570
But the solution isn't taxing the existing stock more heavily.

1346
02:15:56,570 --> 02:16:00,710
The smarter path is actually increasing the overall tax revenue by growing the tax

1347
02:16:00,710 --> 02:16:03,710
base through new development and infrastructure investment.

1348
02:16:04,830 --> 02:16:09,030
The best way to achieve this is to green light new building construction and create an

1349
02:16:09,030 --> 02:16:11,150
environment that attracts investment.

1350
02:16:12,030 --> 02:16:14,890
Higher taxes will deter investment and slow growth.

1351
02:16:15,810 --> 02:16:19,650
Increasing property taxes sends the wrong signal to developers and investors.

1352
02:16:20,190 --> 02:16:23,670
Raising taxes now will cause developers to pause or cancel projects.

1353
02:16:23,670 --> 02:16:30,410
The result, fewer new buildings, less housing supply and ultimately a reduced long-terms tax revenue.

1354
02:16:31,070 --> 02:16:36,570
Maintaining competitive tax rates will stimulate new construction, expand the tax base,

1355
02:16:36,870 --> 02:16:39,950
and generate more revenue without burdening existing property owners.

1356
02:16:40,530 --> 02:16:46,330
More housing supply will lower rents, directly improving affordability for Halifax residents.

1357
02:16:47,670 --> 02:16:52,230
And now there's an economic impact to all of this, and there's also some lessons that we can learn

1358
02:16:52,230 --> 02:16:56,550
from some of today's headlines, which are more centered around trade and

1359
02:16:56,550 --> 02:17:01,910
tariff headlines. But I think there's some direct correlation to speak to. So

1360
02:17:01,910 --> 02:17:06,530
rising property taxes work in very much the same way as a tariff. When

1361
02:17:06,530 --> 02:17:11,310
tariffs rise, businesses pass their higher costs onto consumers through

1362
02:17:11,310 --> 02:17:15,950
increased prices. We've heard people talk a lot about that today. The same will

1363
02:17:15,950 --> 02:17:20,550
happen with property taxes. Higher taxes will either drive up rents or make new

1364
02:17:20,550 --> 02:17:26,710
projects less feasible, leading to fewer housing units, slower growth, and reduced tax revenue.

1365
02:17:30,460 --> 02:17:34,720
Halifax needs forward-thinking leadership. This isn't about short-term gains,

1366
02:17:34,980 --> 02:17:39,560
it's about positioning Halifax for long-term success. Forward-thinking cities are incentivizing

1367
02:17:39,560 --> 02:17:45,620
developments today through property tax reductions, streamlined approvals, and support for innovative

1368
02:17:45,620 --> 02:17:51,760
building methods. If Halifax becomes a more attractive place for development than other Canadian

1369
02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:58,280
in U.S. cities. Investment will flow here. Now for the real, for a real-life example of

1370
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:03,180
this playing out today in our city, we have a project that could change the way that

1371
02:18:03,180 --> 02:18:09,700
we build new housing across our province. What we're doing is we're proposing a 12-story

1372
02:18:09,700 --> 02:18:15,380
mass timber project in downtown Dartmouth. That would create 180 new residential units.

1373
02:18:15,380 --> 02:18:21,080
It would be an innovative new form of low-cost building materials and its modular nature

1374
02:18:21,080 --> 02:18:22,540
would allow us to build housing faster.

1375
02:18:23,540 --> 02:18:31,240
This is a clear, sorry, this project would generate millions in future tax revenue and

1376
02:18:31,240 --> 02:18:36,740
position Halifax as a leader in a new form of sustainable construction, yet HRM staff

1377
02:18:36,740 --> 02:18:44,500
are opposing the project due to a very rigid center plan rule which restricts us on a 12-story

1378
02:18:44,500 --> 02:18:51,500
mass timber building to 10 stories. Alternatively, the current zoning allows us to build a 31-story

1379
02:18:51,500 --> 02:18:56,540
pencil tower on the exact same site, but they will not allow us to build a 12-story

1380
02:18:56,540 --> 02:19:05,600
mass timber project. So something isn't working in the rigidity in the form of the current

1381
02:19:05,600 --> 02:19:10,980
center plan policy. Council can fix this by incentivizing sustainable and innovative construction,

1382
02:19:10,980 --> 02:19:18,140
green-lighting projects that align with long-term economic and environmental goals and to close

1383
02:19:18,140 --> 02:19:20,180
the solution is right in front of you.

1384
02:19:20,460 --> 02:19:25,500
If council reduces property taxes and provides incentives for new housing development

1385
02:19:25,500 --> 02:19:30,580
in Halifax, you will ultimately see more tax revenue through expanded tax-based, more housing

1386
02:19:30,580 --> 02:19:34,860
supply and lower rents, increase private sector investment and job creation, and a more

1387
02:19:34,860 --> 02:19:36,920
competitive and forward-thinking urban economy.

1388
02:19:36,920 --> 02:19:38,720
The opportunity is clear.

1389
02:19:39,340 --> 02:19:44,340
Halifax can adapt, adopt, a progressive growth strategy that attracts investment and expands

1390
02:19:44,340 --> 02:19:49,020
the tax base, or it can risk losing out to cities with more competitive tax and development

1391
02:19:49,020 --> 02:19:49,560
policies.

1392
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:50,920
I urge Council.

1393
02:19:50,960 --> 02:19:53,940
Sir, your time is up, but you'd have one closing statement there.

1394
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:54,480
Okay.

1395
02:19:54,640 --> 02:19:59,380
I urge Council to think differently, act boldly, and position Halifax as a leader in sustainable

1396
02:19:59,380 --> 02:20:00,100
urban growth.

1397
02:20:00,440 --> 02:20:01,080
Thank you for your time.

1398
02:20:01,980 --> 02:20:02,540
Thank you, Joe.

1399
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:05,280
Deputy Mayor Mancini has a question for you.

1400
02:20:06,180 --> 02:20:08,360
Ajo, thanks for the presentation.

1401
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:12,580
So, you've set a couple of times green light new development,

1402
02:20:14,240 --> 02:20:17,260
streamline approvals, and you talked about your proposed

1403
02:20:17,260 --> 02:20:20,320
project downtown, direct with the Councilor of Austin's area.

1404
02:20:20,960 --> 02:20:22,640
And then you mentioned incentive for new housing

1405
02:20:22,640 --> 02:20:23,300
a couple of times.

1406
02:20:23,480 --> 02:20:27,040
So, I'm not sure if I'm clear, what's your incentive

1407
02:20:27,040 --> 02:20:27,820
for new housing?

1408
02:20:28,400 --> 02:20:29,200
Can you explain that to me?

1409
02:20:29,880 --> 02:20:31,980
A variety of different ways you could go about

1410
02:20:31,980 --> 02:20:37,560
incentivizing new housing but reducing costs is the major driver cost factor into all of the

1411
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:41,940
pro-formas that we run when we're considering building a new housing. Property tax is the largest

1412
02:20:41,940 --> 02:20:47,280
component of that cost and it's directly correlated to the finished value of those buildings which drive

1413
02:20:47,280 --> 02:20:54,980
financing. So property tax is the largest cost and that is the largest impact in terms of a direct

1414
02:20:54,980 --> 02:21:01,120
incentive but it could be in other forms there's HAF funds but I think this is the the largest one

1415
02:21:01,120 --> 02:21:06,380
impacting us right now, which is directly green lighting new projects or halting new projects

1416
02:21:06,380 --> 02:21:09,700
is the cost incurred through property taxes.

1417
02:21:09,860 --> 02:21:14,080
And is your experience that we're not processing or your years in term green lighting?

1418
02:21:14,400 --> 02:21:15,320
That's not happening now?

1419
02:21:15,980 --> 02:21:18,440
It hasn't changed over projects you've done years ago?

1420
02:21:19,020 --> 02:21:23,400
Well, so certain things are not happening with more of the innovative projects that we're

1421
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:23,520
doing.

1422
02:21:23,640 --> 02:21:28,360
So we're doing multiple office to residential conversions in the city right now.

1423
02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:34,500
It's producing between the projects we have active and on the go it'll be 300 new housing units in the city

1424
02:21:34,500 --> 02:21:36,780
We started that program in 2021

1425
02:21:36,780 --> 02:21:43,120
So we're delivered we've already delivered 81 units. We're about to deliver 173 in July

1426
02:21:44,140 --> 02:21:49,980
We've been promised and led to believe that there was lots of incentives coming through HAF around the programming today

1427
02:21:49,980 --> 02:21:51,840
We've accepted zero dollars on that

1428
02:21:53,380 --> 02:21:59,260
There's just, I think there's a lot of promises and potential incentives out there, but a lot

1429
02:21:59,260 --> 02:22:03,300
of these aren't coming to pass, and I think the more controllable one that directly impacts

1430
02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:09,400
rents and costs of a project are the property taxes that we're going to face going forward,

1431
02:22:10,740 --> 02:22:14,840
and it's directly being passed down to the end consumer.

1432
02:22:15,760 --> 02:22:16,220
Thank you, Joe.

1433
02:22:16,320 --> 02:22:16,740
I appreciate it, Matt.

1434
02:22:17,640 --> 02:22:18,260
Thank you.

1435
02:22:18,260 --> 02:22:21,080
Joe, we have another Councilor with a question, Councilor Steele.

1436
02:22:21,960 --> 02:22:24,980
Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the presentation, Joe.

1437
02:22:25,560 --> 02:22:29,340
You mentioned the 12-story modular housing you're looking at.

1438
02:22:29,900 --> 02:22:33,020
Can you characterize the type of housing this would be?

1439
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:35,680
Would it be affordable housing?

1440
02:22:36,040 --> 02:22:36,920
Would it be high-end?

1441
02:22:37,040 --> 02:22:40,480
It's downtown Dartmouth, so expect it's fairly expensive.

1442
02:22:40,820 --> 02:22:41,860
Can you speak to that a bit?

1443
02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:45,040
Yeah, so we know Ron from before,

1444
02:22:45,420 --> 02:22:46,960
and we love the model that he's running.

1445
02:22:46,960 --> 02:22:53,860
our model is very different is new construction, completely new development, so it would be market housing on all of our sites.

1446
02:22:55,000 --> 02:23:05,540
We don't, we're building completely new products, we're facing new construction costs as a result all those new buildings are getting taxed as, you know, a valued new building would.

1447
02:23:06,140 --> 02:23:14,180
But we are not, we just simply don't have the model to run affordable housing if we did with our current model.

1448
02:23:14,180 --> 02:23:16,120
So like Ron said, we would be out of business.

1449
02:23:16,440 --> 02:23:18,200
It's just not something that we're set up for.

1450
02:23:19,160 --> 02:23:21,660
Easier to achieve when you're buying old housing stock

1451
02:23:22,340 --> 02:23:24,020
and your costs are relatively low,

1452
02:23:24,260 --> 02:23:27,600
different when you're facing new construction costs today

1453
02:23:28,300 --> 02:23:30,740
and all the fees that go along with that

1454
02:23:30,740 --> 02:23:33,480
and trying to then achieve sustainable rents

1455
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:35,780
with no form of government subsidy attached to what we're doing.

1456
02:23:36,200 --> 02:23:37,980
Okay, I have a follow on.

1457
02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:43,440
So you also mentioned disappointment about not being able

1458
02:23:43,440 --> 02:23:49,060
to access any funding through the Housing Accelerator Fund. Can you explain a bit more about that?

1459
02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:55,800
Because what appealed to me about your presentation was that you said grow your tax space, HRM.

1460
02:23:56,060 --> 02:24:01,660
I want to bill more and I want you to be able to collect more off more properties. So explain to me

1461
02:24:01,660 --> 02:24:07,480
your comment about the Housing Accelerator Fund, your disappointment, your perhaps expectation of

1462
02:24:07,480 --> 02:24:10,180
something and how that didn't happen.

1463
02:24:10,800 --> 02:24:14,060
It's not necessarily like a critique of exactly what's happened today.

1464
02:24:14,960 --> 02:24:17,760
If there was an incentive and it was followed through,

1465
02:24:18,080 --> 02:24:19,940
it would allow us to do more of these projects.

1466
02:24:20,520 --> 02:24:22,620
The fact that we don't have an incentive

1467
02:24:22,620 --> 02:24:25,720
and we can't model that into a new development project

1468
02:24:25,720 --> 02:24:27,680
means that we don't look for that

1469
02:24:27,680 --> 02:24:31,180
or it doesn't make financial sense or we pull back

1470
02:24:31,180 --> 02:24:33,120
from more of these conversion type of buildings

1471
02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:36,100
and we switch to another model that doesn't make sense.

1472
02:24:36,100 --> 02:24:49,160
So, the incentive piece is something that if it were there and presented and followed through on would allow us to look at more conversion buildings that would allow us to add more housing stock in a different way.

1473
02:24:49,600 --> 02:24:56,480
It is different from new construction, which is bottlenecked around formatting, construction cranes and trades.

1474
02:24:56,480 --> 02:25:07,160
So this works off of a different trade pool, but we can't go into projects that don't pencil out because there is no incentive attached to them.

1475
02:25:07,300 --> 02:25:13,560
And then hope that that incentive is going to be realized later on and finish and see it not be not happened.

1476
02:25:14,060 --> 02:25:16,460
Thank you. Hope is not a plan. Yes, thanks.

1477
02:25:17,820 --> 02:25:18,560
Thank you.

1478
02:25:18,560 --> 02:25:19,360
It's

1479
02:25:22,940 --> 02:25:30,160
modular and that it's pre-fab or fabricated off site and constructed and it is.

1480
02:25:30,260 --> 02:25:30,700
Thank you.

1481
02:25:31,260 --> 02:25:34,840
We're going to stay on the budget questions, but I want to get comfortable.

1482
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:36,300
We have two more that I'm buzzed in.

1483
02:25:37,100 --> 02:25:40,900
If you're okay with that, our next is Mayor Philmore.

1484
02:25:42,180 --> 02:25:42,740
Thanks, Joe.

1485
02:25:42,960 --> 02:25:46,160
I think what I heard you say is that incentives come in many different forms.

1486
02:25:46,160 --> 02:25:48,500
They could be housing accelerated fund money.

1487
02:25:48,500 --> 02:25:51,760
It could be a permit fee reduction.

1488
02:25:51,980 --> 02:25:55,880
It could even be a shorter approval time over which you don't have to, you know, you're

1489
02:25:55,880 --> 02:25:58,360
carrying costs for the financing is are less.

1490
02:25:59,020 --> 02:26:01,380
But the biggest one is is a property tax.

1491
02:26:01,500 --> 02:26:06,100
So all of those inputs into your pro forma when you're planning a project will then yield a

1492
02:26:06,100 --> 02:26:09,340
bottom line and yield determine whether or not you're going to build the homes that you

1493
02:26:09,340 --> 02:26:10,880
would like to build that that about right.

1494
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:13,560
And so the biggest input is taxes.

1495
02:26:13,800 --> 02:26:18,480
So the way that we do respond to the housing crisis and the housing, we have an affordability

1496
02:26:19,060 --> 02:26:27,960
affordable housing crisis, but we have a housing crisis in all ends of the spectrum in HRM right now, with only, I think less than a month of stock on the MLS right now.

1497
02:26:27,960 --> 02:26:32,480
We should have about six months at any given time, we have about a month. So we have a housing crisis right across the board.

1498
02:26:32,900 --> 02:26:41,580
So in order to build more homes, the largest input into your pro forma is the tax rate. So keeping that competitive is going to allow you to build more homes, is that right?

1499
02:26:43,020 --> 02:26:47,800
Certainly allow us to green light more projects and I can say for a fact it will also attract

1500
02:26:47,800 --> 02:26:52,280
outside investment that is currently looking at Halifax as an investment opportunity,

1501
02:26:52,580 --> 02:26:57,560
seeing good rents, but also doing the same performance that we are, and if their performance

1502
02:26:57,560 --> 02:27:02,240
are not penciling out because we are running higher property taxes compared to Calgary or

1503
02:27:02,240 --> 02:27:07,300
Edmonton or another market that compares to us, those investment dollars are going to

1504
02:27:07,300 --> 02:27:12,440
those markets, which means your tax base is not growing because those

1505
02:27:12,440 --> 02:27:15,760
funds are not here. They're not growing on the biggest base that you could

1506
02:27:15,760 --> 02:27:20,700
attract, which is new construction with highest value. And that's directly

1507
02:27:20,700 --> 02:27:26,620
impacting the business model of HRM. Trying to increase property taxes on

1508
02:27:26,620 --> 02:27:31,580
existing stock is hurting your existing stock and deterring your future

1509
02:27:31,580 --> 02:27:36,040
investment, which is killing your potential for future tax dollars that you need

1510
02:27:36,040 --> 02:27:40,580
to grow this in. Thank you. Councillor White.

1511
02:27:43,840 --> 02:27:45,920
Thank you Madam Chair. I was curious about your

1512
02:27:45,920 --> 02:27:53,080
Mass Timber project. Sounds like 10 stories doesn't work out for you economically. What's the reason

1513
02:27:53,080 --> 02:27:58,940
that the two story gap? So there's a bunch of features in it and I can relate it back to budget.

1514
02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:06,660
Yes, please. Thank you. You saw my face. Okay. Sometimes it will take me for my mouth. Okay.

1515
02:28:06,660 --> 02:28:20,760
So the mass timber component, it's an innovative approach, it doesn't conflict with the existing concrete construction industry, which involves different trades and form workers, and those people are becoming tapped.

1516
02:28:21,780 --> 02:28:29,420
So it brings in a new form of delivering housing that doesn't tie into the same trade pool, which will ultimately result in new units faster.

1517
02:28:29,420 --> 02:28:34,620
But in order to do something like that, there's a risk in new construction, there's a cost

1518
02:28:34,620 --> 02:28:39,980
of this new material, there's actually a plant in these hands being proposed, it would

1519
02:28:39,980 --> 02:28:43,880
create hundreds of jobs, it would actually be a direct source for that in Nova Scotia,

1520
02:28:44,060 --> 02:28:45,500
but that's going to take some years to build.

1521
02:28:45,860 --> 02:28:51,760
But if we get this project greenlit and prove that this is a viable way of building housing

1522
02:28:51,760 --> 02:28:56,900
here, that will support that plant, that will create jobs, that will create a source here,

1523
02:28:56,900 --> 02:29:01,420
but right now we have to order that from Europe and so there's a cost attached to that.

1524
02:29:01,860 --> 02:29:06,520
So the increased cost of doing this type of building means that we need some increased

1525
02:29:06,520 --> 02:29:10,220
density from what we would otherwise do in a ten-story concrete building.

1526
02:29:10,660 --> 02:29:15,900
And we have to wait whatever we do relative to building a 31-story pencil tower which we

1527
02:29:15,900 --> 02:29:18,060
are approved to do under center plan zoning.

1528
02:29:18,480 --> 02:29:24,880
So all of these things become a financial approach and it all factors into every input

1529
02:29:24,880 --> 02:29:29,600
down to rents, down to cost, everything, and we have to move forward with the most

1530
02:29:29,600 --> 02:29:36,320
viable approach. What we've worked on is a model that would allow 12 stories

1531
02:29:36,320 --> 02:29:41,000
would make that project viable. It creates 180 units of housing. If we are stuck at

1532
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:45,980
10, we get 150 units of housing. That would support a lower form, less risky way of

1533
02:29:45,980 --> 02:29:51,940
building it in concrete. But it would be a new approach to building that hasn't

1534
02:29:51,940 --> 02:29:59,920
been seen in Atlantic Canada but is super prevalent on the west coast and it also is in keeping with many of the

1535
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:29,240
It's here, but if there was an offsetting incentive to incentivize that, that could allow some of those cost inputs to be reduced and maybe it becomes more viable. Okay, something to consider. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're done. All good. Thank you. Our next speaker is Robert Somerville Murray. I think I just saw him leave, though. Okay. Next is Matthew Hansberger.

1536
02:30:29,240 --> 02:30:30,020
I

1537
02:30:40,520 --> 02:30:46,260
have to start despite the massive amount of time I spend with my son he refers to the mayor as his hero

1538
02:30:46,260 --> 02:30:49,320
So I just have to say hi on behalf of my five-year-old son to the mayor

1539
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:54,820
It's very disappointing in my household. Very disappointing in my household. My name is Matt Hansberger

1540
02:30:54,820 --> 02:31:00,100
I'm the owner of Royal Apagia Atlantic. We are a real estate brokerage

1541
02:31:00,100 --> 02:31:06,660
We do approximately eight to ten thousand transactions a year about 55% of those are here in HRM

1542
02:31:06,660 --> 02:31:11,600
We represent either buyers and sellers and those transactions, and I was just thinking

1543
02:31:11,600 --> 02:31:16,520
it was important to come give a little more context to the housing pressures that exist

1544
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:20,700
out here so that you can make decisions about how to govern yourselves with respect to

1545
02:31:21,300 --> 02:31:25,540
budget. I believe very much what Joe was just talking about and some of the previous speakers

1546
02:31:25,540 --> 02:31:32,960
were about tax increases not being the only way in which we could increase the revenue opportunities

1547
02:31:32,960 --> 02:31:36,700
for the municipality here, but also to continue to grow the tax base.

1548
02:31:37,680 --> 02:31:41,900
And I think a look into some of the underlying numbers of the housing market is important

1549
02:31:41,900 --> 02:31:42,540
to understand that.

1550
02:31:43,140 --> 02:31:45,360
I'm going to correct something that the mayor said.

1551
02:31:45,580 --> 02:31:51,060
As of the end of February, we actually do have two months of inventory here in HRM, but

1552
02:31:51,060 --> 02:31:54,820
going below just the HRM broad number is important to look at.

1553
02:31:55,380 --> 02:32:00,560
We've done a good job in the downtown core of building inventory, Halifax Central, actually

1554
02:32:00,560 --> 02:32:05,340
I'm referring to MLS districts now, not the districts that you would all refer to,

1555
02:32:05,480 --> 02:32:10,360
but Halifax Central has four and a half months, Halifax South has three point four months,

1556
02:32:10,780 --> 02:32:15,900
when you get into some of the other parts of the peninsula, Halifax West has less than one

1557
02:32:15,900 --> 02:32:20,320
month, point seven months, and Halifax North has about a month and a half.

1558
02:32:21,280 --> 02:32:27,480
It's when you get outside of the central part of the HRM area that you start to see some

1559
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:31,960
some of the challenges for people who are looking to afford housing and housing affordability

1560
02:32:31,960 --> 02:32:35,920
is something that I think is really an important thing to consider.

1561
02:32:36,840 --> 02:32:41,460
If you go over to Dartmouth, for example, and you go to what we refer to as the Creighton

1562
02:32:41,460 --> 02:32:49,420
Park Albro Lake area, there is, as of December of last year, .3 months of inventory, that

1563
02:32:49,420 --> 02:32:51,880
represents two houses on the market.

1564
02:32:52,320 --> 02:32:54,220
There are two dwellings that you could buy in that area.

1565
02:32:54,920 --> 02:33:08,160
Forrest Hills, which tends to be a very affordable part of our city as well, at the end of February had four houses available on the market for potential people who wanted to buy representing 0.3 months of supply.

1566
02:33:09,040 --> 02:33:18,800
If you go back and look 10 years ago at some of these areas, I'll relate for example, sorry, Forrest Hills for example would have had 98 homes on the market.

1567
02:33:18,800 --> 02:33:23,940
We would have had much more affordability if we could continue to increase inventory.

1568
02:33:25,460 --> 02:33:26,940
Sacville is another good example.

1569
02:33:27,120 --> 02:33:31,940
Right now there are 14 homes for sale representing half a month of inventory ten years ago.

1570
02:33:32,440 --> 02:33:33,900
There were 231 houses.

1571
02:33:34,620 --> 02:33:39,560
Housing affordability can't get solved unless we continue to increase supply in the areas

1572
02:33:39,560 --> 02:33:41,460
that we need to increase supply.

1573
02:33:42,080 --> 02:33:47,140
For people who are looking to own, like Councillor Young was talking about with his rent to own,

1574
02:33:47,140 --> 02:33:51,740
We need to find more supply in those areas where people want to live.

1575
02:33:52,340 --> 02:34:02,360
I recognize that we have some attention towards density to improve a lot of the other challenges we have in the municipality here with respect to infrastructure, transportation, things like that.

1576
02:34:02,620 --> 02:34:11,200
But people who are coming here, they want to buy homes that are affordable, that allow them to still get to work, but aren't necessarily apartments in the downtown core.

1577
02:34:12,180 --> 02:34:15,940
I read an interesting study at the beginning of this year about the pattern of immigration

1578
02:34:15,940 --> 02:34:20,680
as well and how people settle once they get to the country that they're looking to get

1579
02:34:20,680 --> 02:34:20,920
to.

1580
02:34:22,060 --> 02:34:27,320
It's a longitudinal study from sort of the late 90s into the early 2000s where they followed

1581
02:34:27,320 --> 02:34:33,780
a group of immigrants in Canada here within six months of arriving in Canada, about 20 percent,

1582
02:34:33,900 --> 02:34:36,140
19.9 percent are homeowners.

1583
02:34:36,140 --> 02:34:40,780
That rises within the first four years to 51%.

1584
02:34:40,780 --> 02:34:46,080
So if you think of the pattern of immigration that we've had here from other parts of the world into HRM,

1585
02:34:46,780 --> 02:34:54,220
we are about to unlock a lot of those immigrants interest in buying homes as well.

1586
02:34:54,800 --> 02:34:57,360
The renting now, they're going to want to buy over the next little while.

1587
02:34:57,800 --> 02:35:03,620
And we need to focus on making more availability in the areas that they are looking to buy in,

1588
02:35:03,620 --> 02:35:09,820
which are probably the affordable areas close to downtown but not necessarily right downtown.

1589
02:35:10,540 --> 02:35:16,080
We still have a lot of housing demand despite the fact that we've seen MLS sales drop pretty

1590
02:35:16,080 --> 02:35:21,920
dramatically from June of 2021. Interest rates certainly has impacted that but the cost of living

1591
02:35:21,920 --> 02:35:27,660
and even the cost of property taxes impacted that as well. We've seen assessments rise dramatically

1592
02:35:27,660 --> 02:35:35,320
the raising of property taxes by way of rates I think is a mistake I think it's

1593
02:35:35,320 --> 02:35:39,340
something that we need to continue to consider given that we have lots of

1594
02:35:39,340 --> 02:35:42,900
people who are going to be looking to enter the home ownership phase of their

1595
02:35:42,900 --> 02:35:50,480
career. They're housing career. Thank you. Thank you very much. We have a question

1596
02:35:50,480 --> 02:35:56,080
from Councillor Perdi. Thank you. Thank you for coming here today and we've

1597
02:35:56,080 --> 02:36:11,160
I heard this morning, a lot about the impact of the assessed value of properties, increasing substantially, resulting in like 20 to 30 percent increases in property taxes.

1598
02:36:13,080 --> 02:36:24,680
And, and also the cap I've heard is preventing homeowners from, you know, selling maybe they want to downsize or move to a different part of the city.

1599
02:36:24,680 --> 02:36:36,240
but I mean their their cap would be taken off their new home and I mean the yeah the impact to

1600
02:36:36,240 --> 02:36:44,740
their tax bill obviously is going to be much higher in a new home even if it's a smaller home

1601
02:36:44,740 --> 02:36:49,580
and a less expensive home because of that so I'm wondering it's part of the real estate association

1602
02:36:49,580 --> 02:36:52,740
and have you kind of following up on some questions

1603
02:36:52,740 --> 02:36:56,820
from my colleagues, have you approached the province

1604
02:36:56,820 --> 02:37:00,760
with these issues, how have you done that,

1605
02:37:00,860 --> 02:37:03,600
what has the response been, do you see any way forward

1606
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:08,440
to modify these policies that seem to be set in stone?

1607
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:11,180
Where do you see this going?

1608
02:37:12,180 --> 02:37:12,760
Yeah, certainly.

1609
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:15,360
I've been a part of our provincial association

1610
02:37:15,360 --> 02:37:17,320
for years, including being the past year.

1611
02:37:17,320 --> 02:37:22,520
I know that there is a provincial, you know, action committee, as well as a federal action

1612
02:37:22,520 --> 02:37:28,240
committee as well that advocates for home owners on behalf of the real-through association

1613
02:37:28,240 --> 02:37:35,600
as well, and, you know, understanding the impact of tax and the impact that it has on affordability

1614
02:37:35,600 --> 02:37:39,700
is key to what we do every day in our business, right?

1615
02:37:40,740 --> 02:37:46,200
You know, a 30% jump in the tax bill that you have to pay on a property that you're going

1616
02:37:46,200 --> 02:37:52,340
to hopefully acquire prices to put people out of the market right and when you have that

1617
02:37:52,340 --> 02:37:58,380
layered on top of an area where there's only four homes for sale if that is the area in which

1618
02:37:58,380 --> 02:38:03,340
you can sort of afford to live you are going to compete competing for those homes. I have been in

1619
02:38:03,340 --> 02:38:10,180
the business for 20 years and until 2021 it was very rare to see you know multiple offers on a single

1620
02:38:10,180 --> 02:38:17,520
home and even today in a much slower environment than we saw in the peak of the pandemic, one

1621
02:38:17,520 --> 02:38:23,540
out of every three homes through the MLS system had sold with at or above the list price

1622
02:38:23,540 --> 02:38:28,720
that it was at. At that number peaked in 2021 at 92 percent of home selling out or above

1623
02:38:28,720 --> 02:38:34,880
the list price here in HRM. So, you know, there's just so many ways in which affordability is

1624
02:38:34,880 --> 02:38:40,000
being impacted here, and we can only, in this room, control a couple of those levers.

1625
02:38:40,560 --> 02:38:46,780
We absolutely as an associate, a trade association are advocating to, you know, federal and

1626
02:38:46,780 --> 02:38:50,920
provincial governments to make sure that they are aware of the things that are negatively

1627
02:38:50,920 --> 02:38:53,940
impacting affordability, that they could control as well.

1628
02:38:55,200 --> 02:38:56,160
Thank you.

1629
02:38:56,160 --> 02:39:02,800
If you have two more buzzed in to ask your questions, Mayor Fillmore.

1630
02:39:04,520 --> 02:39:06,020
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

1631
02:39:06,780 --> 02:39:09,540
Thank you very much for making time today in my regards to your son.

1632
02:39:09,700 --> 02:39:10,400
Very kind.

1633
02:39:11,360 --> 02:39:14,920
I wanted to ask you, sticking with, again,

1634
02:39:15,080 --> 02:39:18,080
sticking with the things that are within the control of the council.

1635
02:39:19,720 --> 02:39:24,400
What, in your experiences, the impact of rising taxes on rents,

1636
02:39:24,400 --> 02:39:30,520
on the ability to purchase a home and the ability to attract builders to build new homes in HR.

1637
02:39:31,940 --> 02:39:36,700
Obviously, the higher the tax rate and the higher the assessments as well,

1638
02:39:36,960 --> 02:39:42,620
the more difficult it becomes for people to purchase homes, right?

1639
02:39:44,400 --> 02:39:51,000
We do some construction as well in our business and we've seen the rents in our buildings.

1640
02:39:51,000 --> 02:39:56,460
because we rent at market rent, they've risen fairly significantly over the last five

1641
02:39:56,460 --> 02:40:01,860
or six years. And we've sort of seen that that's been obviously a trend across the

1642
02:40:01,860 --> 02:40:06,460
municipality here. Property tax is one of the biggest inputs that we have into our

1643
02:40:06,460 --> 02:40:12,220
carrying costs for the buildings that we have as well. And so that has, you know, factored

1644
02:40:12,220 --> 02:40:17,500
into the decision making that we've had in terms of what rents we're going to charge to tenants.

1645
02:40:18,400 --> 02:40:25,720
When it comes to, let's call it the dream of home ownership, taxes is a significant impact

1646
02:40:25,720 --> 02:40:26,480
that people have.

1647
02:40:26,760 --> 02:40:34,880
So, I understand the D-transfer tax is not a significant portion relative to the annual

1648
02:40:34,880 --> 02:40:40,340
property tax that people pay of the budget here, but it is impactful as well.

1649
02:40:40,840 --> 02:40:47,480
And again, not the other way of this group here, but in a lot of cases there are homeowners

1650
02:40:47,480 --> 02:40:53,320
who have entered the province here or property owners who have entered the province with a new

1651
02:40:53,320 --> 02:40:58,200
D transfer tax that's layered over top of the one that even this fallity has here. So there

1652
02:40:58,200 --> 02:41:01,040
have been negative impacts there in that respect.

1653
02:41:03,300 --> 02:41:05,380
Higher taxes makes it harder for anyone to afford

1654
02:41:05,380 --> 02:41:11,520
anything, right? And so I would just continue to think that the better way for us to look at this is

1655
02:41:11,520 --> 02:41:17,360
to try and approach the developer partners in town here to, you know, be building the

1656
02:41:17,360 --> 02:41:23,300
type of housing stock that will kind of serve both needs. It will provide more affordable

1657
02:41:23,300 --> 02:41:29,220
housing by reducing the demand on the four specific homes and forest hills, for example,

1658
02:41:29,240 --> 02:41:34,080
or the the 14 that are in all the soccer belt right now. So if we're building the right type

1659
02:41:34,080 --> 02:41:40,140
of stuff, it reduces the demand there and you don't see this supply demand curve or the

1660
02:41:40,140 --> 02:41:45,300
supply demand pressure forcing up prices, but alternatively, it broadens the tax base

1661
02:41:45,300 --> 02:41:50,980
by having new homeowners come in, who are recurrently renting downtown, putting pressure

1662
02:41:50,980 --> 02:41:56,380
on, you know, Phil's buildings that, you know, he's got there, and you know, part of the

1663
02:41:56,380 --> 02:42:00,180
reason that you would see ranks being driven up as well, the supply demand in there, but

1664
02:42:00,180 --> 02:42:02,720
I understand it's complaining about property tax as well.

1665
02:42:02,900 --> 02:42:09,800
So, certainly, my thought is to broaden the tax base, broaden the property tax burden

1666
02:42:09,800 --> 02:42:11,880
and on to more people who are about to become

1667
02:42:12,480 --> 02:42:14,140
really interested in becoming homeowners

1668
02:42:14,520 --> 02:42:17,440
is a much better strategy than simply raising the rate

1669
02:42:17,440 --> 02:42:19,440
on the current group that's right now.

1670
02:42:19,620 --> 02:42:21,180
Oh, quick follow up, Madam Chair, if I could.

1671
02:42:21,500 --> 02:42:22,040
Oh, be quick.

1672
02:42:22,400 --> 02:42:23,260
Oh, be quick, thank you.

1673
02:42:23,540 --> 02:42:26,360
So the assessment cab, the D transfer attacks,

1674
02:42:26,960 --> 02:42:29,560
the assessments themselves are on the purview of the province,

1675
02:42:29,660 --> 02:42:30,580
we control the tax rate.

1676
02:42:31,520 --> 02:42:35,740
What advice would you give this group in this budget process

1677
02:42:35,740 --> 02:42:37,980
to help maintain access to housing and health tax?

1678
02:42:37,980 --> 02:42:44,580
I think that tax rate should be at worst maintained and if anything, the more that you can look

1679
02:42:44,580 --> 02:42:49,260
to lower that with, you know, and I empathize with a lot of the programming that I've heard

1680
02:42:49,260 --> 02:42:53,600
about today, that in some cases was for the first time I've heard about, and in many other

1681
02:42:53,600 --> 02:43:00,760
cases, I'm aware it's part of the municipality's burden as well, but you know, the idea of raising

1682
02:43:00,760 --> 02:43:07,260
tax rates is counterproductive to helping more people achieve the dream of home ownership

1683
02:43:07,260 --> 02:43:09,240
or even affordable housing.

1684
02:43:09,940 --> 02:43:10,280
Thank you.

1685
02:43:11,160 --> 02:43:12,240
Thank you very much.

1686
02:43:12,760 --> 02:43:13,680
Thank you, Matthew.

1687
02:43:14,240 --> 02:43:17,820
So that completes calling the list of registered speakers.

1688
02:43:18,720 --> 02:43:21,520
So we could maybe have a show of hands from the gallery.

1689
02:43:21,520 --> 02:43:24,100
We'll call three times in the gallery those that would like to speak.

1690
02:43:25,500 --> 02:43:27,560
One, two, three, four, five.

1691
02:43:27,840 --> 02:43:31,480
I guess we're going to break for lunch and we'll continue after lunch.

1692
02:43:31,580 --> 02:43:31,920
Thank you.

1693
02:43:33,140 --> 02:43:34,680
So we will be back at one o'clock.

1694
02:43:34,680 --> 02:43:35,100
Yeah.

1695
03:41:08,980 --> 03:41:10,000
Good afternoon, everyone.

1696
03:41:13,070 --> 03:41:25,010
Impressive council is back in the seat and it's one o'clock. Well done. We're continuing with the public participation. And okay.

1697
03:41:31,350 --> 03:41:46,970
So we have our next three speakers on the list. Frank Hempel, then Sue, and then Nancy Hunter. Welcome, Frank. Hi, my name is Frank Hempel. I live in district 8. I'm here.

1698
03:41:46,970 --> 03:41:52,290
to ask key folks to reject the proposed increases to the HRP budget, to the RCMP budget.

1699
03:41:52,890 --> 03:41:56,550
It's something that I have spoken about before. There's a lot of folks who have put information

1700
03:41:56,550 --> 03:42:02,770
forward citing the defunding the police to find the way forward report. There's a lot of people

1701
03:42:02,770 --> 03:42:07,210
who have put information into your hands, and I hope that you ask, like, act on it.

1702
03:42:08,050 --> 03:42:11,730
Something that I think is important to consider is that basically everyone who has come here today

1703
03:42:11,730 --> 03:42:16,070
is saying we can't do these tax increases, we can't make it work, we can't do any of that,

1704
03:42:16,070 --> 03:42:20,630
and I think it's important to consider in connection to funding the police budget and connection

1705
03:42:20,630 --> 03:42:25,570
to funding the RCMP and understand that there's only a finite amount of money coming in.

1706
03:42:25,770 --> 03:42:29,590
We don't want to be increasing taxes. That's not working for folks. And so it's the question

1707
03:42:29,590 --> 03:42:33,930
of what you do with the money that you have. And so I think it is important that you consider what

1708
03:42:33,930 --> 03:42:40,350
has been put on the table today. Food programming is crime prevention. Food programming is building

1709
03:42:40,350 --> 03:42:46,250
safe communities, food programming is essential. Firefighters are also essential. Their health is

1710
03:42:46,250 --> 03:42:51,690
essential. And so to see the position, the proposal that they have put forward about increased

1711
03:42:51,690 --> 03:42:56,550
screening for the race that they like incur ads, firefighters, and to see that not being met with

1712
03:42:56,550 --> 03:43:02,650
more. Oh, that makes so much sense. You put your lives on the line constantly. We want to support you.

1713
03:43:02,950 --> 03:43:08,210
We want to support you. It's wild that that isn't being seen in the same way. But then when police

1714
03:43:08,210 --> 03:43:11,890
come in, they say we need to tank, it's very quick to be taken up in that way and I know

1715
03:43:11,890 --> 03:43:15,910
that's an oversimplification and there's a lot of pieces that go into it but something that

1716
03:43:15,910 --> 03:43:20,210
I'm also seeing in this meeting is a lot of folks who say hi. I'm an association of businesses,

1717
03:43:20,530 --> 03:43:25,570
I am a landlord for like thousands of people but there's not a lot of community members who are

1718
03:43:25,570 --> 03:43:30,570
coming forward because it's not a super accessible process and I think it's really important to be

1719
03:43:30,570 --> 03:43:34,050
considering the voices that aren't in the room today, the voices who can't be in the room today,

1720
03:43:34,050 --> 03:43:39,450
the voices who are not asked to be in the room ever in these phases, thinking about the

1721
03:43:39,450 --> 03:43:43,050
folks who are unhoused, thinking about folks who are marginalized in any way, and the

1722
03:43:43,050 --> 03:43:47,450
way that we are all collectively saying we don't feel safer with police in our community.

1723
03:43:47,830 --> 03:43:52,650
That's not a way to increase community safety, it's not a way to build community, it's not

1724
03:43:52,650 --> 03:43:55,770
a way to build resilient communities, it's not the solution.

1725
03:43:55,990 --> 03:44:00,870
And so when you think about having this finite amount of money and spending it on policing

1726
03:44:02,290 --> 03:44:05,770
is that it looks like an intentional devaluing of community

1727
03:44:05,770 --> 03:44:09,710
and knowing that the consequences are worse conditions,

1728
03:44:10,190 --> 03:44:12,810
which is where crime thrives and so understanding that,

1729
03:44:13,090 --> 03:44:18,050
it really looks like this choice to fund police over community

1730
03:44:18,050 --> 03:44:20,070
is saying we know the choice that we're making,

1731
03:44:20,510 --> 03:44:22,930
we know crime will go up and we don't want to be holding that.

1732
03:44:23,290 --> 03:44:24,530
We want someone to clean up the mess,

1733
03:44:25,130 --> 03:44:27,210
we don't want to engage or support our community.

1734
03:44:27,770 --> 03:44:29,650
And so I'm asking you to think about this

1735
03:44:29,650 --> 03:44:34,650
and to think of what it would look like to meaningfully fund community. And even for just one

1736
03:44:34,650 --> 03:44:39,590
moment, one year in time, to listen to the Defunding Police Report, to find the way forward,

1737
03:44:39,970 --> 03:44:44,750
the recommendations within that and to say, what if we start here and see what that looks like?

1738
03:44:44,990 --> 03:44:49,390
What if we try with not funding them this year and see what we can fund instead to make our

1739
03:44:49,390 --> 03:44:53,510
community safer, to make our communities more resilient, to make our communities more connected,

1740
03:44:53,550 --> 03:44:58,190
and less afraid? And I know there's a lot of nuance that goes into that and five minutes can never

1741
03:44:58,190 --> 03:44:59,970
summarize it but a lot of people

1742
03:45:00,000 --> 03:45:29,520
People have been putting energy into trying to make you understand, and it is scary to think about defunding the police and what that could look like. But if you think about investing wisely, if you think about asking in a way that is fiscally responsible, if you think about saying, food programming has ripple effects in a beautiful, positive way, supporting firefighters, beautiful, positive ripple effects, what we plant right now, what we invest in, what we decide to fund, is significant. And the decision to continue funding the police in this way.

1743
03:45:29,520 --> 03:45:34,900
in this overinflated way, even when there has been so much evidence, so many asks, so much,

1744
03:45:35,780 --> 03:45:40,100
just creative imagination on what else we could do. It still seems like funding the police

1745
03:45:40,100 --> 03:45:45,940
is the highest priority and that's not okay. Two people have died in police custody in the last

1746
03:45:45,940 --> 03:45:50,480
month and that needs to be considered. It needs to be considered the way that people feel in

1747
03:45:50,480 --> 03:45:54,800
communities when there is a high police presence. It needs to be considered that there was a reason

1748
03:45:54,800 --> 03:46:05,180
that the tank was rejected in 2020 that everyone could understand, because there was community momentum behind it, and for just a moment, there was the ability to understand that police do not make us safer.

1749
03:46:05,840 --> 03:46:19,460
So if we could use that creative imagination, if we could tap back into that, if we could understand, it's not about whatever the police, your politics about the police, it's about how we're choosing to invest in our communities,

1750
03:46:19,460 --> 03:46:30,160
using to invest in safety, connection, collaboration, and understanding that everything we do has these ripple effects, and what are you willing to invest in now to see in the future?

1751
03:46:30,720 --> 03:46:31,040
Thank you.

1752
03:46:33,240 --> 03:46:36,040
Thank you, Frank. Our next speaker is Sue.

1753
03:46:41,670 --> 03:46:47,150
Your councillor's name is Sue. I live in District 5, and I work in food security in District 7.

1754
03:46:47,730 --> 03:46:55,290
I'd like to start off by saying I just wrote this today, very similar conclusions that the previous speaker drew,

1755
03:46:55,290 --> 03:47:00,590
but I do not enjoy being here because I generally don't feel like my opinion when I come here and

1756
03:47:01,130 --> 03:47:05,830
speak to you from a place of evidence. In fact, it's not listened to as much as the police

1757
03:47:05,830 --> 03:47:10,330
department is or the landowners, the residential developers are. I will probably not get any

1758
03:47:10,330 --> 03:47:15,690
follow-up questions, which is so fair. But I mean, it's not fair, but you know, I just don't feel

1759
03:47:15,690 --> 03:47:22,910
listened to here, but I also can't like stand to sit when you're putting food against a million

1760
03:47:22,910 --> 03:47:33,150
dollars in RCMP funding food against a tank and then kind of are leading to blame not increasing

1761
03:47:33,150 --> 03:47:38,610
residential taxes as a reason to cut off these fundings. I just can't watch that happen.

1762
03:47:39,450 --> 03:47:44,710
Firstly, we're here today because of previous decisions made by this council. I don't think we

1763
03:47:44,710 --> 03:47:51,190
need to be discussing increasing residential tax. If we had not funded the $2 million to

1764
03:47:51,190 --> 03:47:57,950
HRP for cameras or we looked at HRP budget a bit tighter. I don't think we would

1765
03:47:57,950 --> 03:48:02,670
need to be here if we hadn't already bought F350s and already approved an

1766
03:48:02,670 --> 03:48:08,690
armored rescue vehicle that once again the community does not want under OHS when

1767
03:48:08,690 --> 03:48:12,630
we rejected cancer screenings and like when we're talking about proper

1768
03:48:12,630 --> 03:48:17,570
equipment for firefighters. A lot of people here spoke in favor of the just food

1769
03:48:17,570 --> 03:48:22,990
Good funding, and I'd like to say to the councillors who think that food is not their

1770
03:48:22,990 --> 03:48:28,170
jurisdiction, food is your jurisdiction, because police do get called when people don't

1771
03:48:28,170 --> 03:48:28,730
have enough food.

1772
03:48:28,990 --> 03:48:31,470
Police get called when they don't have enough housing.

1773
03:48:31,590 --> 03:48:36,370
A lot of people who are developers spoke to affordable housing, so you do understand some

1774
03:48:36,370 --> 03:48:43,130
role of the councillor, safety is related to these things, and as someone who's coming

1775
03:48:43,130 --> 03:48:49,690
from an organization that has only $300,000 in annual budget but able to serve like a

1776
03:48:49,690 --> 03:48:54,910
thousand individual meals a week consistently and make connections with people through

1777
03:48:54,910 --> 03:49:00,570
that, give people my phone number to call me if there's an emergency, get to know people,

1778
03:49:01,130 --> 03:49:08,190
link them with employment, that is public safety and it costs so much less than the police

1779
03:49:08,190 --> 03:49:08,730
ever well.

1780
03:49:10,950 --> 03:49:15,750
So just putting the food on chopping block and then using residential taxes, I think

1781
03:49:15,750 --> 03:49:21,810
will be unacceptable. And where RCMP's community officers, I don't know what that means. It just

1782
03:49:21,810 --> 03:49:26,090
seems like they're attacking the word community. That does not build community. Food will build community.

1783
03:49:26,570 --> 03:49:34,010
The community led crisis response will build community, I hope. So I'd like you to consider these

1784
03:49:34,010 --> 03:49:37,910
before you make those decisions and I'd like you to think about the fact that your decisions

1785
03:49:37,910 --> 03:49:43,930
up until now, where you did approve the HRP funding, even when really valid questions

1786
03:49:43,930 --> 03:49:49,630
around the body-worn cameras were raised, you need to talk, think about all these decisions

1787
03:49:49,630 --> 03:49:55,650
that you've met and go against the current of always approving RCMP and HRP budgets just

1788
03:49:55,650 --> 03:50:01,270
because we equate them with safety because it's not. We've just learned that. I'm also

1789
03:50:01,270 --> 03:50:05,590
concerned about some budget items that were proposed to not raise property taxes, such as

1790
03:50:05,590 --> 03:50:13,010
cutting funding to trees. HRM, I believe, isn't a climate emergency. So, and we are making

1791
03:50:13,010 --> 03:50:18,810
strategic budgeting plans around that climate emergency. So, I don't understand why we would move

1792
03:50:18,810 --> 03:50:25,610
to cut funding to trees. I don't understand what decision is around that. I don't understand

1793
03:50:25,610 --> 03:50:29,030
and why the HRM voted to be in climate emergency

1794
03:50:29,030 --> 03:50:30,770
when they would make that decision.

1795
03:50:34,830 --> 03:50:39,170
And yeah, I don't have much to say other than,

1796
03:50:39,390 --> 03:50:41,550
don't fund the RCMP just for one year

1797
03:50:41,550 --> 03:50:42,830
and see what it does the community.

1798
03:50:43,290 --> 03:50:45,010
Fund Adjustment Program for just one year

1799
03:50:45,010 --> 03:50:47,690
to see what community connections that it leads to.

1800
03:50:48,270 --> 03:50:51,190
Fund the proper equipment for firefighters,

1801
03:50:52,070 --> 03:50:53,010
fund the drop-in center.

1802
03:50:53,310 --> 03:50:54,930
I don't see the money amount for that,

1803
03:50:54,930 --> 03:50:59,270
but it seems like it will be valuable. Fund the coming to lead response just for one year.

1804
03:50:59,450 --> 03:51:06,590
Do not fund the RCMP and the tank. Thank you. Thank you, Sue. If you don't mind,

1805
03:51:06,790 --> 03:51:10,950
Councillor Kent does have a question for you. Councillor Kent. Thank you, Madam Chair.

1806
03:51:11,110 --> 03:51:16,050
Thank you, Sue. So I just want to know a little bit more about your organization. I don't recall

1807
03:51:16,050 --> 03:51:21,950
you saying what it is. I didn't note it just because it's not funded by the city or by the province at

1808
03:51:21,950 --> 03:51:24,570
It's funded by students, it's called a loaded ladle.

1809
03:51:25,010 --> 03:51:27,910
It's a, yeah, it's levied through a student's budget

1810
03:51:27,910 --> 03:51:29,630
in the Atalhas University.

1811
03:51:30,290 --> 03:51:33,790
I just am able to see working in a food program

1812
03:51:33,790 --> 03:51:36,250
where we don't have to fight for our budget every year

1813
03:51:36,250 --> 03:51:39,070
that we are able to create like a free lunch program,

1814
03:51:39,330 --> 03:51:40,390
a free breakfast program.

1815
03:51:40,990 --> 03:51:42,930
I mentioned in my speech last time here,

1816
03:51:43,050 --> 03:51:45,210
we started a affordable food market

1817
03:51:45,210 --> 03:51:49,730
where the average customer spends $10 for a week of groceries

1818
03:51:49,730 --> 03:51:51,790
because it's heavily subsidized.

1819
03:51:52,330 --> 03:51:54,630
These things happen because we have a group of people

1820
03:51:54,630 --> 03:51:56,690
who are so passionate about community

1821
03:51:56,690 --> 03:51:59,450
and who wants to make things happen with very little budget.

1822
03:52:00,110 --> 03:52:02,970
I don't think that's paralleled

1823
03:52:02,970 --> 03:52:05,010
in other budgets, such as the RCF and ACR.

1824
03:52:05,010 --> 03:52:07,790
So back to my question, which is the organization,

1825
03:52:07,870 --> 03:52:09,230
that is within the university

1826
03:52:09,230 --> 03:52:12,690
and it's coming from funds from the university

1827
03:52:12,690 --> 03:52:15,890
or from the students, directly from the students.

1828
03:52:16,490 --> 03:52:17,730
Okay, and just to be clear,

1829
03:52:17,730 --> 03:52:21,930
Are you supportive of the Community Crisis Diversion Pilot service?

1830
03:52:23,630 --> 03:52:26,730
As long as it doesn't involve HRPs or the RCMP, yes.

1831
03:52:27,650 --> 03:52:29,470
But I think it's a good step, even if it does.

1832
03:52:29,910 --> 03:52:31,830
Okay, thank you very much, and the just food.

1833
03:52:32,130 --> 03:52:32,830
Okay, thanks.

1834
03:52:33,050 --> 03:52:33,750
Thanks for coming in.

1835
03:52:34,790 --> 03:52:35,570
Thank you, Sue.

1836
03:52:36,310 --> 03:52:42,010
Our next three speakers are Nancy Hunter, Brendan Marr, and then Joe Triff.

1837
03:52:42,810 --> 03:52:44,030
So welcome, Nancy Hunter.

1838
03:52:50,090 --> 03:52:57,230
I had no plans on speaking today, so please excuse my maybe a little bit of all over the

1839
03:52:57,230 --> 03:53:01,410
place, but I've certainly been listening and paying attention.

1840
03:53:02,030 --> 03:53:03,650
I live in District 12.

1841
03:53:04,330 --> 03:53:09,570
I was going to joke and say, I'm a taxpayer because when you say that, people seem to

1842
03:53:09,570 --> 03:53:10,930
pay attention more.

1843
03:53:12,210 --> 03:53:15,330
I'm a property owner, maybe I'll even get more attention.

1844
03:53:16,650 --> 03:53:22,070
I own my single home and I pay property taxes, I pay my property tax this morning.

1845
03:53:24,370 --> 03:53:28,690
I have worked and I've lived in Halifax all my life.

1846
03:53:29,170 --> 03:53:36,890
I've worked in for 35 years in some capacity or another through volunteer or paid in small

1847
03:53:36,890 --> 03:53:38,470
underfunded community groups.

1848
03:53:39,070 --> 03:53:43,130
I've worked in helping and addressing sexual assault, gender-based violence.

1849
03:53:43,130 --> 03:53:48,190
I've worked on anti-racism, anti-poverty and helping with mental health.

1850
03:53:49,110 --> 03:53:59,470
I have in one way or another been involved in knowing more about police through my work in many different ways,

1851
03:54:00,020 --> 03:54:08,490
both in the harms from marginalized people that police cause, but I've also learned a lot about police governance,

1852
03:54:09,970 --> 03:54:17,510
lack of governance, policy. I know a lot about the complaint system. I know a lot about

1853
03:54:17,510 --> 03:54:26,270
the in-accountability systems. And I say all this because I'm often dismissed. I called my

1854
03:54:26,270 --> 03:54:31,550
counselor the other day to talk about things here. And the first thing she did was a little

1855
03:54:31,550 --> 03:54:35,950
bit of a growth. She's not here to answer for herself. So I don't know if that's actually fair,

1856
03:54:35,950 --> 03:54:42,350
but I'm going to say it anyway. She kind of went, ah, you're against cops. And I'm like,

1857
03:54:42,710 --> 03:54:50,550
well, there's a little more to it than that. And I'm a citizen of this city. And my father

1858
03:54:50,550 --> 03:54:55,370
always called me an idealist, and I'm not. I'm a pragmatist. If we had been doing the things that

1859
03:54:55,370 --> 03:54:59,510
I've been fighting for 35 years, a lot of people wouldn't be in the trouble they're in now,

1860
03:54:59,730 --> 03:55:04,190
because a lot of them are on prevention, a lot of them are on health, a lot of them are on

1861
03:55:04,190 --> 03:55:09,530
anti-poverty and that we find ourselves in a crisis. We're in a crisis that is growing.

1862
03:55:09,990 --> 03:55:14,910
So those that have always not done well in our system or has been harmed by our system

1863
03:55:15,610 --> 03:55:22,010
are harmed much worse. So when we talk about property taxes and we talk about numbers,

1864
03:55:23,070 --> 03:55:29,950
you know, a property tax increase can really hurt some people and a lot of people, it doesn't

1865
03:55:29,950 --> 03:55:35,010
affect their day-to-day all at all. So when we're talking about complicated things, we need to

1866
03:55:35,010 --> 03:55:41,330
talk about the context and the impacts and who these things are impacting. But one place I am

1867
03:55:41,330 --> 03:55:47,250
an idealist is in democracy. And I still, I have so many people say, oh Nancy, I wish I could do

1868
03:55:47,250 --> 03:55:52,730
what you do. And I'm like, oh, I don't really do that much. But I do come here where most people don't.

1869
03:55:52,930 --> 03:55:57,690
But I know thousands and thousands and thousands. Well, maybe I don't know thousands and thousands,

1870
03:55:57,690 --> 03:56:03,150
but I know a lot of people in this city from all walks of life who agree with the things that I say,

1871
03:56:03,350 --> 03:56:07,670
but don't do anything about it. And they're not here and they're not here in their suits,

1872
03:56:08,070 --> 03:56:12,730
and they don't have power, and they don't like rub elbows with people in power.

1873
03:56:13,190 --> 03:56:18,070
And I've always thought that governments are supposed to do the counterbalances

1874
03:56:19,570 --> 03:56:26,030
that keep those people from suffering more. And I don't get the feeling from this council.

1875
03:56:26,030 --> 03:56:30,210
And we're here and we're in pretty stark reality when we have very rich people in this room

1876
03:56:30,210 --> 03:56:34,930
talking, and then we have a few people who are talking for the people who don't talk,

1877
03:56:35,190 --> 03:56:36,050
who have the least.

1878
03:56:36,770 --> 03:56:45,130
And we are debating things like food versus an overfunded police department that we don't

1879
03:56:45,130 --> 03:56:46,090
even question.

1880
03:56:46,870 --> 03:56:51,830
You know, I'm sitting here, there's firefighters behind me who are asking for cancer screening

1881
03:56:51,830 --> 03:56:54,210
for a health and safety issue.

1882
03:56:54,210 --> 03:57:03,970
and I think that's off the docket, you know, so I'm not just about against cops. I'm for all kinds

1883
03:57:03,970 --> 03:57:09,790
of things and I think I speak for a lot of people who don't get hurt as much, who don't get seen,

1884
03:57:10,190 --> 03:57:16,030
who don't get thought about, who have real, real challenges and I know it's not all your,

1885
03:57:16,270 --> 03:57:20,850
I know it's not all your responsibility, but you're going to have to do something different because

1886
03:57:20,850 --> 03:57:25,090
Because we have a province who really doesn't give a damn about anybody who is taking democratic

1887
03:57:25,090 --> 03:57:32,070
power away, and this city's got to get more creative and more value-based because a lot

1888
03:57:32,070 --> 03:57:34,970
of the people that are suffering in Nova Scotia live in this town.

1889
03:57:35,750 --> 03:57:40,270
And so I just am here to speak for all of those people.

1890
03:57:40,910 --> 03:57:41,210
Thank you.

1891
03:57:42,350 --> 03:57:43,950
Thank you very much, Nancy.

1892
03:57:45,730 --> 03:57:52,710
Your comment about the counselor that is absent reminded me of how I have been remiss.

1893
03:57:53,510 --> 03:57:59,610
Counselor Coddle is representing HRM at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities board

1894
03:57:59,610 --> 03:58:05,390
meeting in Montreal at the moment and of course nationally they're looking at some very significant

1895
03:58:05,390 --> 03:58:10,290
issues and so she wanted to make sure that she represented HRM and so that is why she is

1896
03:58:10,290 --> 03:58:10,690
not here.

1897
03:58:13,300 --> 03:58:15,240
Yeah, great. Thank you.

1898
03:58:18,920 --> 03:58:22,680
Our next speaker is Brendan Marr and then Joe Triff and

1899
03:58:22,680 --> 03:58:23,560
then Matt Stricklin.

1900
03:58:37,250 --> 03:58:41,650
Welcome, Brendan. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of Council

1901
03:58:41,650 --> 03:58:50,090
and Mayor Philmore for allowing me the opportunity to speak today. On February 14th, Councilor

1902
03:58:50,090 --> 03:58:56,530
Cleary made a motion to explore a cancer screening program. There's more detail on simplifying

1903
03:58:56,530 --> 03:59:03,110
what he said. I sense that day a great deal of sincerity from all of you in

1904
03:59:03,110 --> 03:59:10,290
council to do what's right for firefighters and you know if you remember it

1905
03:59:10,290 --> 03:59:14,070
was it was a little emotional for me and a lot of people that were here that

1906
03:59:14,070 --> 03:59:20,730
day hoping that we wouldn't need to continue going to the Canadian fall in

1907
03:59:20,730 --> 03:59:24,370
firefighters like we were doing this year for the third year in a row for one of

1908
03:59:24,370 --> 03:59:25,870
of our members of occupational cancer.

1909
03:59:26,490 --> 03:59:28,030
I helped a member of the week before last

1910
03:59:28,030 --> 03:59:28,970
were the cancer form.

1911
03:59:29,470 --> 03:59:32,390
I talked to two members who are experiencing,

1912
03:59:33,710 --> 03:59:36,930
they're having some skin cancers explored.

1913
03:59:38,170 --> 03:59:40,390
And last night I was made aware of the report

1914
03:59:40,390 --> 03:59:42,910
that was sent to council on March 6th.

1915
03:59:44,410 --> 03:59:46,370
And I'll just, I wrote the last paragraph down.

1916
03:59:47,690 --> 03:59:49,130
Based on available evidence,

1917
03:59:49,130 --> 03:59:57,130
It is the, it is premature to provide funding for the creation of a cancer screening program

1918
03:59:57,130 --> 03:59:59,210
for HIV firefighters at this time.

1919
04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:29,780
HREFE and HRE will continue to engage with appropriate system partners to determine the most appropriate approach to provide early cancer screening for HRFE firefighters. This was like a punch in the stomach for me last night when I read this and I know the member that brought it to me made me aware of it was so, so disappointed after being so optimistic last month. I noticed this morning the date on this report

1920
04:00:29,780 --> 04:00:38,360
was March 6th. I had my meeting for consultation on March 13th. This report was submitted before I

1921
04:00:38,360 --> 04:00:44,400
had an opportunity to share the information that I've gathered over 10 years as vice president

1922
04:00:44,400 --> 04:00:50,880
or president of this union. Being immersed in this is a high priority thing. The advocacy that we

1923
04:00:50,880 --> 04:00:59,160
did to change the cancer coverages. And, you know, to be fair, I had a week where I was out of the

1924
04:00:59,160 --> 04:01:05,360
office, I was on compassionate leave and we had two mediation processes so I was not in

1925
04:01:05,360 --> 04:01:10,780
the fire station responding to helfax.ca emails and I did miss an email looking for a meeting.

1926
04:01:11,560 --> 04:01:17,480
I got that meeting seven days after the report was submitted. Had I been consulted, looking

1927
04:01:17,480 --> 04:01:26,320
at the content of the report that said best practices are not identified. For me, there

1928
04:01:26,320 --> 04:01:32,620
our practices and then there is no practice. We have nothing right now. We have nothing to

1929
04:01:32,620 --> 04:01:36,520
screen our firefighters for cancer when the provincial health care system which we

1930
04:01:36,520 --> 04:01:44,420
all have acknowledged is where this should lie needs to take up the ball on this. We understand

1931
04:01:44,420 --> 04:01:50,240
that there may be meetings coming and the province has not said no to taking care of firefighters

1932
04:01:50,240 --> 04:01:58,740
but they've not said now. And we need now. We need to do this this year. We can't wait for another year to identify a best practice.

1933
04:02:00,080 --> 04:02:06,720
I am 100% certain that this screening program will save a life of an HRFE firefighter.

1934
04:02:08,140 --> 04:02:17,920
If not in the first year, within what we had talked about was maybe a four-year program where we started at ten years of service

1935
04:02:17,920 --> 04:02:20,200
and a member got screened every second year,

1936
04:02:20,340 --> 04:02:22,500
so we were screened twice in a four-year program.

1937
04:02:22,800 --> 04:02:25,880
That with the proposal that we went out and got,

1938
04:02:27,280 --> 04:02:30,020
would cost a little over $800 after taxes.

1939
04:02:30,660 --> 04:02:32,960
For each member, if you look at our membership

1940
04:02:32,960 --> 04:02:35,240
and the volunteers with 10 years of service,

1941
04:02:35,800 --> 04:02:38,380
that bill would be roughly $200,000 a year.

1942
04:02:39,280 --> 04:02:41,580
And I would suggest that we know,

1943
04:02:41,800 --> 04:02:44,060
based on work safe Ontario studies,

1944
04:02:44,060 --> 04:02:52,660
days. An early diagnosis and return to work costs an average of $35,000. A late-stage

1945
04:02:52,660 --> 04:02:57,940
diagnosis where the person does not return to work and usually dies is over half a million

1946
04:02:57,940 --> 04:03:05,480
to the work-safe system in Ontario. You combine that in Nova Scotia in Halifax with our

1947
04:03:05,480 --> 04:03:10,920
collective agreement where we have a line of duty death benefit for the members and the families

1948
04:03:10,920 --> 04:03:13,340
Mays receive compensation beyond the death.

1949
04:03:13,760 --> 04:03:18,220
This is folks an opportunity to do the right thing, but it's not an expense.

1950
04:03:18,560 --> 04:03:21,020
This is an investment that will save money.

1951
04:03:21,600 --> 04:03:27,720
I urge someone before budget is done this year to bring a motion forward because nobody's

1952
04:03:27,720 --> 04:03:32,520
voted no from council, nobody said no to us, but it was not in the chief's budget.

1953
04:03:32,740 --> 04:03:36,280
We asked for it last year, we asked for it this year, and it wasn't in his budget.

1954
04:03:36,280 --> 04:03:44,480
So I'm asking somebody from council, please make a motion and start screening program for our firefighters. Thank you.

1955
04:03:45,220 --> 04:03:53,260
Thank you, Brennan. There is a couple of questions from councilors. First up is council for clarification. Yeah, thank you Madam Chair.

1956
04:03:53,580 --> 04:04:00,300
Thank you. Thank you for speaking today again. And so you know when you hear words and you think you know what it means.

1957
04:04:00,300 --> 04:04:06,160
I'm just wondering, can you clarify for me what is the difference between a screening program?

1958
04:04:07,700 --> 04:04:12,860
And then, you know, firefighters taking the initiative to go to their doctor to get looked at

1959
04:04:13,800 --> 04:04:16,700
regularly for this. I'm not understanding.

1960
04:04:17,600 --> 04:04:21,940
We have some forms that have been developed in other municipalities and through the IFF,

1961
04:04:22,160 --> 04:04:27,380
and they're essentially physicians guides to treating a patient with who's a firefighter.

1962
04:04:27,380 --> 04:04:33,420
Firefighting is acknowledged by the IARC through World Health Organization as a category

1963
04:04:33,420 --> 04:04:34,220
one carcinogen.

1964
04:04:34,980 --> 04:04:40,280
What we hear back consistently from our members who appear young and healthy in without symptoms

1965
04:04:41,560 --> 04:04:45,300
is that they're not in the demographic for this screening.

1966
04:04:46,000 --> 04:04:51,680
The awareness in the medical community, the adoption of the risk factor of firefighting for

1967
04:04:51,680 --> 04:04:53,260
physicians is not there.

1968
04:04:53,260 --> 04:04:57,480
So our members go in and they ask for this and that blood test, this work that would

1969
04:04:58,300 --> 04:05:04,440
An example our member Billy Marr who passed April 4th last year would be 47 years old this year

1970
04:05:04,440 --> 04:05:09,040
Billy was on the poster for the Dartmouth General Hospital fundraiser for

1971
04:05:09,740 --> 04:05:11,640
For the fit test for screening

1972
04:05:12,220 --> 04:05:16,580
Billy still wouldn't be eligible for a fit test under the health care system because he's not 50

1973
04:05:18,120 --> 04:05:21,220
Okay, and so he still would not be eligible to get that screening

1974
04:05:21,220 --> 04:05:26,660
So we have, from the IFF, if we had been consulted before this report was filed, we have

1975
04:05:26,660 --> 04:05:30,680
recommendations for all types of screening on different types of cancer.

1976
04:05:31,700 --> 04:05:37,860
When it goes to the contracted health provider from the city, respectfully, I would not

1977
04:05:37,860 --> 04:05:40,020
say that is where I would go shopping for this service.

1978
04:05:40,340 --> 04:05:46,100
I would go to somebody that specialized, focused, and looked at firefighter cancers for decades.

1979
04:05:46,760 --> 04:05:49,000
Like the IFF has an on-staff doc.

1980
04:05:49,220 --> 04:05:50,760
We have a doctor on staff.

1981
04:05:50,760 --> 04:05:58,320
we have a research division and we've worked on this stuff for decades and getting it out

1982
04:05:58,320 --> 04:06:04,160
to the healthcare community. There are initiatives at the federal level. Nobody said no to us

1983
04:06:04,160 --> 04:06:08,100
with the province but we've been trying to get this done for four years and we haven't.

1984
04:06:08,860 --> 04:06:16,440
We can't wait any longer for someone else to do it and so we came to you.

1985
04:06:17,080 --> 04:06:18,840
Okay. Thank you. Thanks for that.

1986
04:06:20,320 --> 04:06:22,500
One more, Councilor Morse. Thank you.

1987
04:06:24,410 --> 04:06:28,990
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Brennan, for being here today and for all your advocacy

1988
04:06:28,990 --> 04:06:35,730
on this. You mentioned this could be an investment for Council. Can you talk a little bit about

1989
04:06:36,310 --> 04:06:41,030
where you see it as an investment if there's cost recovery in this preventative approach?

1990
04:06:43,160 --> 04:06:47,600
The Helifax Professional Firefighters members are not in workers' compensation right now.

1991
04:06:47,600 --> 04:06:52,120
We have our own, we went in 2008 and started our own job injury program.

1992
04:06:52,380 --> 04:07:00,460
So we fund our job injury program and there are studies done in, there's a study in Ontario

1993
04:07:00,460 --> 04:07:02,840
about the costs of these cancer claims.

1994
04:07:03,840 --> 04:07:08,220
And so those costs identified in that study are to the workers comp system.

1995
04:07:08,660 --> 04:07:14,100
So were we in workers comp as our volunteers are in, I believe, workers comp.

1996
04:07:15,080 --> 04:07:19,920
This would be a savings to workers comp and perhaps something they would have the ability

1997
04:07:19,920 --> 04:07:24,160
to use their things under their jurisdiction to mandate.

1998
04:07:26,820 --> 04:07:32,820
The cost of the city is a line of duty death compensation benefit for our members.

1999
04:07:33,320 --> 04:07:38,720
So if a member of the health professional firefighters is killed in the line of duty and that includes

2000
04:07:38,720 --> 04:07:44,000
occupational cancers, 70% of that person's salary will go to their spouse.

2001
04:07:44,000 --> 04:07:53,020
and so to speak for our member we lost last year was no longer married but has an eight-year-old

2002
04:07:53,020 --> 04:08:03,060
son who will get 70% of his salary including future raises until age 25. So that one payment alone would

2003
04:08:03,060 --> 04:08:09,580
have funded the program as we proposed I suggest seven or eight years and I don't think we're going to

2004
04:08:09,580 --> 04:08:11,880
go seven or eight years without another one if we don't do something.

2005
04:08:12,600 --> 04:08:13,220
Okay, thank you.

2006
04:08:14,440 --> 04:08:15,200
Thank you, Vernon.

2007
04:08:15,980 --> 04:08:17,660
Our next speaker is Joe Trif.

2008
04:08:19,540 --> 04:08:23,220
Trif, Matt Strickland, and then the last one on the list is Rebecca Howtery.

2009
04:08:24,580 --> 04:08:25,240
Welcome, Joe.

2010
04:08:25,720 --> 04:08:26,280
Oh, thank you.

2011
04:08:27,120 --> 04:08:33,380
I'm going to do my best to keep my anger and disgust for this report out of my response to you folks.

2012
04:08:34,800 --> 04:08:38,460
Most of you know, Vernon and I were elected to union reps.

2013
04:08:38,460 --> 04:08:46,840
We're elected by the firefighters that are doing the work that are going into these dangerous environments that are putting their lives at risk.

2014
04:08:47,540 --> 04:08:52,320
We don't work in an office. When I finish this meeting, I'm going back to a fire station to get on a truck.

2015
04:08:52,800 --> 04:08:54,880
There's a fire in Halvex today. I'll probably be there.

2016
04:08:56,840 --> 04:09:02,340
The people that contributed to this report are so long removed from the dangers faced by firefighters, if ever.

2017
04:09:04,870 --> 04:09:06,370
The language used that is premature.

2018
04:09:07,630 --> 04:09:12,530
tell my family it's premature. Tell Billy Myers family it's premature for this

2019
04:09:12,530 --> 04:09:18,150
screening. Billy died almost a year ago and he pleaded for many years to get

2020
04:09:18,150 --> 04:09:24,490
screening. Once he was finally screened he had to stage four cancer. He was young

2021
04:09:24,490 --> 04:09:29,850
previously healthy 46-year-old who's not going to get to see his kids grow up. His

2022
04:09:29,850 --> 04:09:33,750
boys were eight and ten when he died. My kids are eight ten and twelve.

2023
04:09:36,520 --> 04:09:36,860
Make no

2024
04:09:36,860 --> 04:09:41,280
The cost of delaying the investment in screening people is our people.

2025
04:09:41,860 --> 04:09:44,140
We have to backfill them when they're not at work, when they're sick.

2026
04:09:44,560 --> 04:09:46,560
Brennan already spoke to the compensation to the families.

2027
04:09:48,280 --> 04:09:53,700
The cost of screening is a fraction of the cost to the city when we lose somebody.

2028
04:09:55,020 --> 04:09:58,780
And we acknowledge that the province sets the guidelines for various medical screening and tests,

2029
04:09:59,160 --> 04:10:02,560
but they don't take into account the risks of the firefighting profession.

2030
04:10:03,360 --> 04:10:08,600
Our access is largely based on the general population and age, not the risk factor with

2031
04:10:08,600 --> 04:10:08,940
our job.

2032
04:10:10,060 --> 04:10:14,300
We will continue to work with the province to find long-term solutions, but in the meantime,

2033
04:10:14,840 --> 04:10:21,500
we are looking for HRM to step in and protect your investment, which is your people, by screening

2034
04:10:21,500 --> 04:10:23,000
our firefighters for cancers.

2035
04:10:24,320 --> 04:10:30,760
We don't know, I don't know, a single firefighter who feels it's premature and most of us are

2036
04:10:30,760 --> 04:10:33,680
question why this doesn't already exist in each room.

2037
04:10:38,390 --> 04:10:42,030
Thank you, Joe. Matt, you're up next

2038
04:10:42,030 --> 04:10:46,990
and my sincere apologies. I put an R in your name instead of Stickland. Matt Stickland.

2039
04:10:54,860 --> 04:11:00,020
Hello. Hello. This is on you. Okay. Excuse me. I missed something. Councillor Perty, did you have a

2040
04:11:00,020 --> 04:11:05,600
question for the previous speaker? I did. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see it. Sorry, Matt.

2041
04:11:08,140 --> 04:11:09,480
Thank you.

2042
04:11:09,480 --> 04:11:10,560
Thanks for coming back, Joe.

2043
04:11:10,880 --> 04:11:11,620
Yes, thank you.

2044
04:11:11,780 --> 04:11:11,920
Sorry.

2045
04:11:13,140 --> 04:11:18,400
This may have been said last month at one of our meetings,

2046
04:11:18,400 --> 04:11:21,240
but do other municipalities in the province

2047
04:11:21,810 --> 04:11:24,920
fund screening programs for their firefighters, do you know?

2048
04:11:25,700 --> 04:11:28,740
No, we're the biggest in the province.

2049
04:11:29,200 --> 04:11:31,360
The only other ones that are with the IFF,

2050
04:11:31,540 --> 04:11:34,400
Yarmouth, Truro, and Sydney combined

2051
04:11:34,400 --> 04:11:37,660
have less than 90 members between the three other locals.

2052
04:11:38,620 --> 04:11:45,680
This is very common in BC and Ontario, and it's very successful at keeping people healthy and at work.

2053
04:11:46,180 --> 04:11:47,280
Right, okay, thank you.

2054
04:11:47,520 --> 04:11:47,740
Thank you.

2055
04:11:48,160 --> 04:11:49,100
One more question.

2056
04:11:49,980 --> 04:11:51,240
Councillor Hensby has buzzed in.

2057
04:11:51,760 --> 04:11:51,980
Thank you.

2058
04:11:52,500 --> 04:11:54,000
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

2059
04:11:54,460 --> 04:11:56,560
You mentioned the other jurisdictions BC and Ontario.

2060
04:11:56,780 --> 04:11:59,200
How is that paid for by the municipalities or by the province?

2061
04:12:00,060 --> 04:12:02,380
I would have to dig into that response, Councillor.

2062
04:12:02,840 --> 04:12:03,360
Okay, thank you.

2063
04:12:05,020 --> 04:12:05,720
Thank you.

2064
04:12:07,950 --> 04:12:10,550
Now you're up bad. Thank you for your patience.

2065
04:12:12,010 --> 04:12:15,410
No problem. It's my favorite time of year and I'm going to sit because I hate public

2066
04:12:15,410 --> 04:12:18,070
speaking and would be shaking like a leak if I was standing right there.

2067
04:12:18,730 --> 04:12:23,570
Anyways, I also wasn't planning on speaking today even though my new boss does give me a

2068
04:12:23,570 --> 04:12:27,630
lot more leeway than my old boss. But I just come to the realization as I'm listening

2069
04:12:27,630 --> 04:12:31,990
to you guys talk is that we don't actually have a budget problem. We have a political

2070
04:12:31,990 --> 04:12:36,530
problem. If I can summarize the public speaking that we've heard so far today, it's taxes

2071
04:12:36,530 --> 04:12:40,390
is bad, public spending good. And if you look at the just food report that you see out

2072
04:12:40,390 --> 04:12:44,730
there, you'll see a line item on the last couple pages about vermicompost. Now, I tried

2073
04:12:44,730 --> 04:12:49,130
to join the vermicompost pilot. I learned about it. I learned about vermicompost because

2074
04:12:49,130 --> 04:12:53,690
I researched it through my day job. I didn't get into the pilot. My counselor couldn't help

2075
04:12:53,690 --> 04:12:57,250
me with it, 3-1-1 couldn't help me with it, but I ended up buying a vermicompost, and now

2076
04:12:57,250 --> 04:13:02,370
I divert about 30 pounds of food waste from the city. I do that in my own home, and it

2077
04:13:02,370 --> 04:13:05,570
gives me about a couple hundred dollars with a fertilizer that I don't need to spend. And

2078
04:13:05,570 --> 04:13:08,010
I also get a lot more fertilizer than I could buy out of pocket.

2079
04:13:08,890 --> 04:13:16,650
Fractions of fractions of a cent is saving you 30 pounds a year in food waste plus is

2080
04:13:16,650 --> 04:13:21,050
putting a couple hundred dollars in my pocket through fertilizer that I'm not buying.

2081
04:13:21,470 --> 04:13:25,370
Public spending you've heard from the firefighters just now saves us money.

2082
04:13:25,990 --> 04:13:37,890
The problem is District 5, 7, 8, 9, half of 6 and half of 10 paid almost all the taxes and I don't pay enough.

2083
04:13:38,710 --> 04:13:42,330
Most of you represent people who do not pay enough in taxes.

2084
04:13:43,210 --> 04:13:49,750
This year, if the city cuts everything they want to cut, I think I'm going to save about $89.

2085
04:13:50,970 --> 04:13:58,510
$89.89. That's why half a trip to the grocery store? Is that worth it? If you consider

2086
04:13:58,510 --> 04:14:03,190
the amount, I would have to pay out of transportation. I live in rural Nova Scotia, right? I live

2087
04:14:03,190 --> 04:14:09,570
in rural Halifax. My transportation budget is about $40,000 a year. My property tax bill

2088
04:14:09,570 --> 04:14:16,670
is $2,500. If Mr. Gears back there gets a properly funded, properly resourced transit service,

2089
04:14:16,670 --> 04:14:23,370
I'm talking road space, I'm talking resources, that's $30,000 or $40,000 out of my budget right

2090
04:14:23,370 --> 04:14:29,030
away because I can take the bus. I don't need to spend $30,000 on a car, $70,000 on a car,

2091
04:14:29,150 --> 04:14:32,950
newer use, whatever it is. I don't need that operating cost. I can't, I don't need to do that anymore.

2092
04:14:33,430 --> 04:14:40,950
I can take the bus instead if it's reliable, if it's funded, if, if, if, if, if, right? And there's

2093
04:14:40,950 --> 04:14:42,590
just a whole slew of that.

2094
04:14:42,770 --> 04:14:45,670
So, but like the problem is, how are most of you

2095
04:14:45,670 --> 04:14:48,230
going to tell most of your constituents?

2096
04:14:48,230 --> 04:14:50,090
Because I'm one of the 90 somewhat people

2097
04:14:50,090 --> 04:14:54,210
who are like very much helped by the property tax gap.

2098
04:14:54,350 --> 04:14:57,730
90% ish, I think, if I remember the report correctly.

2099
04:14:58,610 --> 04:14:59,970
90% of-

2100
04:15:00,000 --> 04:15:05,900
Local family homeowners are seriously benefiting from this cap, and I'm one of them. But happy

2101
04:15:05,900 --> 04:15:10,540
cities did a study in 2017, 2018, and if you take me and all my neighbors in the surrounding

2102
04:15:10,540 --> 04:15:15,460
area, I can't remember what their scope was. If you take all of our property taxes that

2103
04:15:15,460 --> 04:15:23,520
we pay, and in the same area, you just lack that into road costs, we are costing a city $1.5

2104
04:15:23,520 --> 04:15:29,660
million dollars. Property taxes minus roads. That's it. I'm not talking waste

2105
04:15:29,660 --> 04:15:34,420
collection which we also get. I'm not talking transit which we also kind of get.

2106
04:15:34,740 --> 04:15:38,380
I'm not talking active transit which we also kind of get. Like we get so many

2107
04:15:38,380 --> 04:15:45,900
public services and my taxes pay not enough for just the roads. Right? So I don't

2108
04:15:45,900 --> 04:15:51,300
pay enough in taxes. Most people in the HRM I would argue don't pay enough in taxes.

2109
04:15:51,300 --> 04:15:56,320
But how are you going to tell people that you can't?

2110
04:15:56,500 --> 04:15:58,980
Really, realistically, that's political suicide.

2111
04:16:00,140 --> 04:16:02,020
So, the problem is a political one.

2112
04:16:02,360 --> 04:16:02,880
You are a business.

2113
04:16:03,340 --> 04:16:04,120
You are a corporation.

2114
04:16:04,520 --> 04:16:05,020
You need revenue.

2115
04:16:05,500 --> 04:16:10,660
You need to spend that money in ways that saves me money, firm a composting, cancer screening, whatever.

2116
04:16:11,780 --> 04:16:12,580
How do you do that?

2117
04:16:13,360 --> 04:16:15,080
I don't know, but that's your problem.

2118
04:16:15,620 --> 04:16:16,500
It's not a budget problem.

2119
04:16:17,080 --> 04:16:18,060
It's a political one.

2120
04:16:18,060 --> 04:16:24,160
how do you raise fees and revenues to generate the money you need to spend the

2121
04:16:24,160 --> 04:16:29,660
public money you need to to make my budget go down in ways that are unpopular

2122
04:16:29,660 --> 04:16:34,160
i.e. raising fees and taxes right like how do you do that I don't know but

2123
04:16:34,160 --> 04:16:39,040
that's your problem you need revenue you can't raise taxes because it's political

2124
04:16:39,040 --> 04:16:45,480
suicide so what do you do I don't know that's a good question that's what you're

2125
04:16:45,480 --> 04:16:48,700
gonna be talking about for the next little while but I just wanted to let you

2126
04:16:48,700 --> 04:16:53,620
know that your problem is not a financial one. You have the power to raise money. You need

2127
04:16:53,620 --> 04:16:59,860
money. The more money you spend, the less money I have to spend out of pocket. How do you

2128
04:16:59,860 --> 04:17:09,940
communicate that? Challengingly. But hey, you guys are leaders, right? So, lead on. I'm out of time.

2129
04:17:09,940 --> 04:17:14,960
Thank you very much, Matt, an interesting perspective.

2130
04:17:15,960 --> 04:17:18,160
Our next speaker is Rebecca Hartnery.

2131
04:17:27,350 --> 04:17:30,770
Okay, I have nothing prepared, but the notes I've been writing as I've been sitting here.

2132
04:17:31,910 --> 04:17:37,610
And it's going to be, I'm nothing prepared, except for the notes, is it not on?

2133
04:17:39,790 --> 04:17:40,090
Okay.

2134
04:17:42,290 --> 04:17:46,010
Yeah, I've definitely been taking a lot of notes sitting here, because again, just like

2135
04:17:46,010 --> 04:17:55,650
last time that we all spoke, it is so clear that you're not listening to voices that

2136
04:17:55,650 --> 04:18:00,850
actually matter, you're listening to the 1% of developers in the part of this meeting

2137
04:18:00,850 --> 04:18:04,810
that was like a dragon stand episode, and you

2138
04:18:06,980 --> 04:18:08,520
have a firefighter almost at tears.

2139
04:18:08,940 --> 04:18:11,380
So I think the first thing I want to say is shame on you, Trish Birdie.

2140
04:18:12,040 --> 04:18:14,800
Those questions were so incredibly inappropriate.

2141
04:18:14,800 --> 04:18:14,960
it.

2142
04:18:17,000 --> 04:18:21,740
Just wait, I have this does lead into something. Am I not allowed to say the name?

2143
04:18:21,820 --> 04:18:25,000
Madam Chair, point of order. Point of order. Excuse me.

2144
04:18:27,020 --> 04:18:34,160
So we're just going to continue with respectful language and I think shame on you appreciate

2145
04:18:34,160 --> 04:18:38,360
that your comments. Please continue. If we're talking about taking initiative

2146
04:18:38,360 --> 04:18:43,300
for your own health, how much money and I will find the answers and email it to you, but

2147
04:18:43,300 --> 04:18:45,620
I've watched endless things where you've been talking to Don

2148
04:18:45,620 --> 04:18:51,980
Consul of the Chief of Police, and you ask point link, how can we, how can we

2149
04:18:51,980 --> 04:18:54,880
better fund your mental health care? How can we make sure that doctors are

2150
04:18:54,880 --> 04:18:59,180
there for you? How can we make sure that you are taking care of because your job is

2151
04:18:59,180 --> 04:19:05,720
hard, you're on the front lines, etc., etc., honestly blah blah blah. Then you say

2152
04:19:05,720 --> 04:19:10,600
that a firefighter should take their own initiative to get cancer screening when

2153
04:19:10,600 --> 04:19:16,640
when it is scientifically proven that they are at a higher risk of getting cancer.

2154
04:19:17,520 --> 04:19:23,080
But then the next person comes up and they talk about how their friend died after pushing

2155
04:19:23,080 --> 04:19:25,000
and pushing and begging and begging for screening.

2156
04:19:25,160 --> 04:19:26,140
Is that not taking initiative?

2157
04:19:27,820 --> 04:19:29,760
Is that taking initiative for your own health?

2158
04:19:30,280 --> 04:19:32,700
Why are coughs not asked to find their own therapist?

2159
04:19:33,040 --> 04:19:34,900
Why do you spill money into this?

2160
04:19:35,540 --> 04:19:41,160
Also, if we're going to talk about taxes, there are 94 positions from last budget in

2161
04:19:41,160 --> 04:19:44,860
the police, in the HRP, in the RCMP that are funded.

2162
04:19:44,980 --> 04:19:47,240
That's over a million dollars or something like that.

2163
04:19:47,880 --> 04:19:48,800
That weren't funded.

2164
04:19:48,880 --> 04:19:49,800
That's just money sitting there.

2165
04:19:50,320 --> 04:19:52,480
So why are you not looking into that?

2166
04:19:52,580 --> 04:19:57,080
Where is the investigative stuff that you should be doing for your constituents?

2167
04:19:57,080 --> 04:20:04,100
If there are 94 empty police salaries sitting there that could pay for cancer screening

2168
04:20:04,100 --> 04:20:10,620
times 10, could pay for the food act, could pay for the alternatives to policing after

2169
04:20:10,620 --> 04:20:17,040
we had two extremely tragic deaths here, and where you should have emergency meetings over

2170
04:20:17,040 --> 04:20:20,720
how to detest the police for mental health care.

2171
04:20:20,720 --> 04:20:29,540
this is absurd. I am on the verge of tears and I don't know I have like so much here and this is

2172
04:20:29,540 --> 04:20:34,380
just honestly so messed up honestly shame on you all except for the few of you that I know that

2173
04:20:34,380 --> 04:20:39,240
we'll vote against this tank and that's another thing this is a tank it doesn't really matter what

2174
04:20:39,240 --> 04:20:45,580
we call it an armored rescue vehicle still not a single critical question asked to the police about

2175
04:20:45,580 --> 04:20:51,260
that and when watching how they were saying that it differed from the F-350s, which I really

2176
04:20:51,260 --> 04:20:55,760
appreciate you all bringing those questions forward, the only difference that the police said

2177
04:20:55,760 --> 04:21:01,720
was the level of arming, which is the difference of like army level machine guns that we have never

2178
04:21:01,720 --> 04:21:08,080
seen here in Halifax. Level 3 arming is perfectly capable in a truck. The only thing that's not

2179
04:21:08,080 --> 04:21:15,120
there is a speaker so that they can yell outside the car in whatever they'll use the tank for.

2180
04:21:15,580 --> 04:21:20,420
I also want to say that it has been brought up year after year that you want a policy for

2181
04:21:20,420 --> 04:21:25,420
the tank before you approve it and the police had an entire month to do that.

2182
04:21:25,700 --> 04:21:31,140
And when I read the bell, all I literally see is that they'll look to other municipalities

2183
04:21:33,780 --> 04:21:35,720
to say how that policy is going to go.

2184
04:21:36,180 --> 04:21:39,580
And then they say it's not going to be used in public gatherings, which I just don't believe

2185
04:21:39,580 --> 04:21:42,540
and the police will always just pay the penalty and do what they want anyways.

2186
04:21:42,540 --> 04:21:43,660
we see that all the time.

2187
04:21:46,700 --> 04:21:54,130
Anyways, I'm up here because this is how I want you guys to vote.

2188
04:21:56,290 --> 04:22:01,450
I want you to fund the community mediation pilot program, the community crisis diversion

2189
04:22:01,450 --> 04:22:07,450
pilot service, just food program, youth advocate program, absolutely deplorable that you want

2190
04:22:07,450 --> 04:22:12,650
to take away youth advocate program that has seen the need for increase, increase firefighters,

2191
04:22:13,510 --> 04:22:19,910
10 positions. I want you to make a motion because once again, nothing that you voted on

2192
04:22:19,910 --> 04:22:23,650
already is set in stone until April 8th. You can change the budget. You can bring back

2193
04:22:23,650 --> 04:22:27,730
that cancer screening and you should because it's seriously not okay. You're showing your

2194
04:22:27,730 --> 04:22:31,310
cards right now. And please do not fund.

2195
04:22:31,410 --> 04:22:36,370
Rebecca, you're at time if you'd just like to have one closing statement. That would be great.

2196
04:22:36,370 --> 04:22:37,970
I have one closing statement.

2197
04:22:38,970 --> 04:22:41,690
The more that you cut funding to social programs,

2198
04:22:41,970 --> 04:22:45,050
the more the RCMP and HRP are gonna ask for more money,

2199
04:22:45,210 --> 04:22:46,970
because you criminalize everything that you cut,

2200
04:22:47,210 --> 04:22:50,410
and then the RCMP are misplaced and mistasked

2201
04:22:50,410 --> 04:22:51,130
to deal with it.

2202
04:22:52,790 --> 04:22:55,430
And it's like, it's shameful and it's like,

2203
04:22:56,390 --> 04:22:59,530
it's unavoidable to, like, we all see you,

2204
04:22:59,750 --> 04:23:00,390
and we know what you're doing.

2205
04:23:00,670 --> 04:23:00,750
So.

2206
04:23:02,010 --> 04:23:02,790
Thank you, Rebecca.

2207
04:23:02,790 --> 04:23:08,970
Rebecca, that is the last speaker on this list, but I had only asked once before the

2208
04:23:08,970 --> 04:23:12,630
restart at lunch. For the second time, is there anyone from the gallery that would

2209
04:23:12,630 --> 04:23:13,130
like to speak?

2210
04:23:16,380 --> 04:23:19,420
Excuse me for the third and final time, is there anyone from the gallery

2211
04:23:19,420 --> 04:23:20,240
that would like to speak?

2212
04:23:24,070 --> 04:23:28,530
Thank you very much, everyone. We need just two minutes to get

2213
04:23:28,530 --> 04:23:33,670
set up for the next item on our agenda. So, don't go too far.

2214
04:23:36,900 --> 04:23:41,520
Madam Chair, we have a request to go in camera maybe now is the time to do that.

2215
04:23:42,520 --> 04:23:46,540
So with a request to go in camera before the motion is on the floor?

2216
04:23:46,940 --> 04:23:47,520
We can do that.

2217
04:23:47,760 --> 04:23:47,780
Yeah.

2218
04:23:49,440 --> 04:23:50,400
The CAO.

2219
04:23:57,620 --> 04:23:58,060
Thank you.

2220
04:23:58,140 --> 04:23:59,240
Is there a motion to go in camera?

2221
04:23:59,720 --> 04:24:01,680
Councillor Kent, seconded Councillor Perdi.

2222
04:24:02,480 --> 04:24:08,400
So we'll come back then at 5-1 and we will be in camera.

2223
04:24:08,640 --> 04:24:08,880
How's that?

2224
04:24:17,940 --> 04:24:18,780
5-2.

2225
05:42:06,380 --> 05:42:12,380
Thank you all very much. We're ready to come back and continue. Before we start with our presentations,

2226
05:42:12,800 --> 05:42:19,240
I would like to extend an explanation and an apology to the members of gallery. Very unceremoniously

2227
05:42:19,240 --> 05:42:25,340
said at lunchtime that we would be coming back in camera. We would have had you come back at 1 o'clock

2228
05:42:25,340 --> 05:42:31,260
and then we would have had you leave within moments. So because we did need to go to in camera for some

2229
05:42:31,260 --> 05:42:38,500
inter-governmental advices, so that was the explanation, could have done that better at

2230
05:42:38,500 --> 05:42:45,240
noon time when everyone was excused for lunch, so that's where we're at, and now we can move

2231
05:42:45,240 --> 05:42:52,860
on to item 6, which is our bell, and before the staff presentation, our CAO has something to say.

2232
05:42:55,770 --> 05:43:01,770
Thank you, Madam Chair, and we're not going to do a long speech

2233
05:43:01,770 --> 05:43:12,110
and what we had thought would be a long presentation is going to be expedited in the interest of making up a little bit of time to try to move us forward.

2234
05:43:13,650 --> 05:43:29,050
So just as a refresh, council sets the strategic direction and decides which programs and services are offered by the municipality and in most cases to what level we're offering those services, so service levels.

2235
05:43:29,050 --> 05:43:37,790
Under the charter, under Section 35B, the CAO must ensure that annual operating and capital budgets are prepared.

2236
05:43:38,350 --> 05:43:51,270
After they're approved, it's the CAO's responsibility to administer the budgets and report back to council, you know, throughout the year on projections and how money's being spent.

2237
05:43:51,270 --> 05:44:00,450
So, there is opportunity all the time for us to be reviewing what we're doing, finding

2238
05:44:00,450 --> 05:44:05,430
nips and tucks, innovation, new ways to do things that happens on an ongoing basis.

2239
05:44:06,330 --> 05:44:14,670
I wanted to highlight that throughout the budget process since we've tabled, there are 25 proposed

2240
05:44:14,670 --> 05:44:20,310
adjustments that have been identified through the budget adjustment list process.

2241
05:44:20,610 --> 05:44:25,530
These changes could collectively amount to a budget reduction of over $26 million.

2242
05:44:27,290 --> 05:44:33,550
And of course, we're at the point in the process where Council can choose to vote on budget

2243
05:44:33,550 --> 05:44:40,930
adjustment list items separately, can choose to group some of them together, and can also still

2244
05:44:40,930 --> 05:44:47,430
raise new things that haven't been discussed yet to date. So I don't want any council member

2245
05:44:47,430 --> 05:44:53,270
to feel that just because something hasn't been discussed today, it can't be brought forward

2246
05:44:53,270 --> 05:44:59,590
now. And I want to just thank all of the members of the public who came out to speak throughout

2247
05:44:59,590 --> 05:44:59,910
the button.

2248
05:45:08,420 --> 05:45:28,400
Thank you for your thoughtful deliberations throughout this process today. I know we've got a little bit further to go, but I think the discussions have been excellent, so I'm going to turn things over to finance, and they're just going to give a quick recap of where we're at.

2249
05:45:29,280 --> 05:45:33,980
Thank you, Madam CEO, and Jerry has a comment as well before you start their day.

2250
05:45:41,650 --> 05:45:44,050
Sorry, thank you, Madam Chair.

2251
05:45:44,270 --> 05:45:51,910
Just before we turn it over today, and not to believe the debate here, but

2252
05:45:52,450 --> 05:45:58,090
just one of the things I wanted to bring up and I just think it's important because, you know, facts matter.

2253
05:45:58,350 --> 05:46:05,110
But just with regards to a couple of points that were brought up this morning about affordability

2254
05:46:05,110 --> 05:46:30,470
And I know benchmark studies are very subjective, but I think it's important to know that the studies that was brought up this morning by some members of the public with respect to, you know, how we benchmark those studies in terms of total tax burden would include the mandatory contributions that we pay by the provincial government that are downloaded onto us.

2255
05:46:30,470 --> 05:46:39,310
So out of the analysis, if you took the 200 million dollars out of that, we would then benchmark very close to the bottom.

2256
05:46:39,650 --> 05:46:45,710
That's why we use the Calgary survey because it's an Apple's Apples comparison, untax burden.

2257
05:46:46,470 --> 05:46:54,130
The other thing I'll point out is in those surveys with Altus Sends who cast, I believe.

2258
05:46:55,250 --> 05:47:00,690
We have the highest read lines on property taxes because we don't receive any provincial subsidies.

2259
05:47:01,130 --> 05:47:07,770
So like a city like Toronto, I think their tax, every line's on taxes is somewhere in the 50%.

2260
05:47:08,170 --> 05:47:15,490
They receive quite a bit of funding from the provincial government, which would go into their tax burden number for those.

2261
05:47:15,750 --> 05:47:23,850
So not to belagre the debate, but I think that was important that that got brought up the council before we get going here.

2262
05:47:24,130 --> 05:47:24,490
Thank you.

2263
05:47:26,690 --> 05:47:28,190
Before we begin the presentation,

2264
05:47:28,190 --> 05:47:30,170
there's a question from Councillor Perty.

2265
05:47:30,850 --> 05:47:31,270
Thank you.

2266
05:47:31,610 --> 05:47:34,850
So I just wanted to request the full presentation,

2267
05:47:35,190 --> 05:47:36,490
not every deuce version.

2268
05:47:37,190 --> 05:47:38,570
Just this is a big hefty.

2269
05:47:38,610 --> 05:47:39,810
There's a lot of information here

2270
05:47:39,810 --> 05:47:41,690
and I don't want to feel like we're rushing through

2271
05:47:42,110 --> 05:47:43,270
just to get through the time

2272
05:47:43,270 --> 05:47:45,270
because we had a big day today.

2273
05:47:45,910 --> 05:47:47,170
Yeah, we're going to be here another day anyway.

2274
05:47:47,230 --> 05:47:48,410
So if we can get the full presentation,

2275
05:47:48,650 --> 05:47:49,730
I'd really appreciate that.

2276
05:47:50,010 --> 05:47:50,370
Thank you.

2277
05:47:50,730 --> 05:47:51,710
Thank you, Councillor Perty.

2278
05:47:53,570 --> 05:47:55,550
I'm sure that's great with you guys, too, right?

2279
05:47:57,190 --> 05:47:58,110
Yes, thank you.

2280
05:47:58,390 --> 05:48:00,530
So Dave Harvey, Director of Financial Management and Operations.

2281
05:48:00,950 --> 05:48:05,270
And I'm joined here today by Tyler Higgins, our Manager of Budget Reserves and Daniel Freeman,

2282
05:48:05,590 --> 05:48:07,150
one of our Senior Financial Consultants.

2283
05:48:07,870 --> 05:48:13,630
So we'll just start with when we say the presentation of light,

2284
05:48:14,150 --> 05:48:19,950
the areas I'm going to be touching a little bit less on than we intended were more some of the color around it.

2285
05:48:19,950 --> 05:48:28,830
So not the actual important pieces of the presentation that I think are going to be very important for you to hear here in total and then be able to look at for discussion.

2286
05:48:29,190 --> 05:48:32,730
So we'll get started.

2287
05:48:33,650 --> 05:48:39,610
So we're here to discuss the budget adjustment list, just a quick recap of where we are in the process.

2288
05:48:39,950 --> 05:48:44,790
So we've gone through and approved our capital budget and all of our individual business unit budgets.

2289
05:48:44,790 --> 05:48:47,390
So we're now here at the budget adjustment list.

2290
05:48:47,550 --> 05:48:57,570
This is your opportunity to make adjustments to those budgets as they have been approved prior to the final budget ratification that comes forward on April 8th or plan to come forward in April 8th.

2291
05:48:57,870 --> 05:49:01,910
So this is really your opportunity to approve any modifications to that budget as you see fit.

2292
05:49:02,410 --> 05:49:06,670
And we've got compiled the list of items on the bowel that are here for your consideration.

2293
05:49:06,670 --> 05:49:07,690
So

2294
05:49:10,440 --> 05:49:17,920
as a starting point, our proposed 2526 budget is now based at $69.7 million increase.

2295
05:49:18,620 --> 05:49:22,400
So currently that would mean a tax rate increase of 0.022.

2296
05:49:23,260 --> 05:49:30,920
That's a 7.6% increase to the average residential bill, which would equate to about $189 or just under $16 a month.

2297
05:49:32,160 --> 05:49:36,020
The key pressures that are building this are related to compensation and

2298
05:49:36,020 --> 05:49:38,480
positions which have averaged about $44 million dollars.

2299
05:49:38,980 --> 05:49:43,840
The increase required in capital renewal is about $19 million, and then we have some contracts and

2300
05:49:43,840 --> 05:49:46,320
inflation pressures that have driven us another $1 million dollars.

2301
05:49:52,240 --> 05:49:56,280
So as Kathy mentioned, we have 25 items that are included on the ballot.

2302
05:49:56,760 --> 05:50:01,460
$8.4 million of these are over budget items, so these will increase your taxes.

2303
05:50:02,120 --> 05:50:10,980
We have a further 33.2 million items under budget, so these are items that you could bring forward that would decrease the tax burden that would be putting forward.

2304
05:50:11,980 --> 05:50:19,140
Of note, the other savings ballot item, ballot 23, is based on the mayor's motion from our fiscal presentation,

2305
05:50:19,560 --> 05:50:23,220
where we were asked to come back with the staff's recommendations for additional cuts.

2306
05:50:23,600 --> 05:50:26,780
And so there's actually 30 additional items that are within that.

2307
05:50:27,160 --> 05:50:32,660
So of that 25, we actually have about 50 different items on our ballot that you are going to be looking at.

2308
05:50:38,540 --> 05:50:42,180
So as we said, our beginning position is at 7.6%.

2309
05:50:42,180 --> 05:50:46,880
that would equate to a tax rate of 0.792 for that $189.

2310
05:50:47,440 --> 05:50:51,800
If we were to take the bow in total, so all the overs, all the unders that are included in there,

2311
05:50:52,860 --> 05:50:57,100
we would actually see a fall in the average tax bill to 4.1%,

2312
05:50:57,100 --> 05:51:01,440
and the residential rate would actually decrease from 0.77 to 0.765.

2313
05:51:02,740 --> 05:51:08,360
And the impact on the average tax bill would be fall from $189 down to $97.60.

2314
05:51:14,040 --> 05:51:17,500
So these are the items listed on the ballot that have the financial impacts.

2315
05:51:18,160 --> 05:51:21,380
Again, as you can see, I want to highlight ballot item 23.

2316
05:51:21,820 --> 05:51:24,300
That's the FTE review and savings that are outlined.

2317
05:51:24,540 --> 05:51:27,500
So that's $11.2 million of additional savings.

2318
05:51:27,620 --> 05:51:32,620
That's those 30 items that we mentioned that were came forward as part of the in response to the mayor's motion.

2319
05:51:37,500 --> 05:51:40,360
We also have a number of ballot items that don't have financial impacts.

2320
05:51:40,360 --> 05:51:46,580
These are things that, for various reasons, would not have an impact on this yours budget.

2321
05:51:47,220 --> 05:51:50,820
The drop in center funding and after hours individualized mobile engagement team,

2322
05:51:51,500 --> 05:51:55,780
we're still recommending that go forward. The funding there is actually available in the reserve.

2323
05:51:56,100 --> 05:52:00,300
That group had gotten reserve funding through the year and we're can utilize those funds to fund

2324
05:52:00,300 --> 05:52:04,040
this in next year's budget, so that would be going forward but would have no impact on our tax rate.

2325
05:52:05,340 --> 05:52:09,720
The collision data reporting, the cancer screening and the insurance company once,

2326
05:52:09,720 --> 05:52:17,920
As noted in the briefing notes, currently none of those have funding implications as built into the bell that we've presented for you today.

2327
05:52:24,000 --> 05:52:33,240
Now for bell 23, the 30 additional items, we have a number of items that are operating reductions and we've actually categorized these as ongoing or one time.

2328
05:52:33,800 --> 05:52:45,560
On going items or items that would, if you get that decrease, this year that decrease will continue next year, so it won't come back as a one-time decrease in your budget, that you'd have to tax for next year, that decrease will continue.

2329
05:52:46,580 --> 05:52:58,860
Your one-time savings are ones that we may take the saving in this fiscal year. When we get to next year's budget, we will have to replace those funds, and that would require a tax increase next year to make up for those lost funds.

2330
05:53:01,530 --> 05:53:06,910
And actually, in looking at that, so total reductions there are about $5.6 million, total

2331
05:53:06,910 --> 05:53:08,850
ongoing reductions would equal about $3 million.

2332
05:53:11,830 --> 05:53:14,630
We also had some capital reductions that were identified.

2333
05:53:15,230 --> 05:53:20,010
The majority of these are deferrals of capital projects and all of these capital projects

2334
05:53:20,010 --> 05:53:21,150
were funded from capital renewal.

2335
05:53:21,790 --> 05:53:25,730
So what we're able to do is, some of these we defer out a year or two, there's a couple

2336
05:53:25,730 --> 05:53:29,790
items based on their briefing notes that aren't deferrals, such as our corporate fleet project,

2337
05:53:29,790 --> 05:53:30,930
which is just a reduction.

2338
05:53:31,490 --> 05:53:35,910
But all of these are one-time cost or one-time savings because as they come from our capital

2339
05:53:35,910 --> 05:53:39,510
renewal, there will be other capital projects that will either come forward to take that

2340
05:53:39,510 --> 05:53:43,870
funding next year, or we'd actually have to do these projects next year when that deferral

2341
05:53:43,870 --> 05:53:44,150
is done.

2342
05:53:44,710 --> 05:53:48,490
So again, that's a one-time savings of about $4.9 million that we could see.

2343
05:53:53,220 --> 05:53:54,900
And finally, we have our deeper reductions.

2344
05:53:56,020 --> 05:54:00,640
These are items that are really service changes that we've identified that Council could make

2345
05:54:00,640 --> 05:54:03,540
a decision on whether or not they wanted more information on or wanted to bring forward.

2346
05:54:03,540 --> 05:54:10,300
We haven't included any of these items in the ballot at this point in time because we felt there were items that as their service changes

2347
05:54:10,300 --> 05:54:15,020
Council needed to make those decisions and decide whether or not they wanted to go forward but those are not

2348
05:54:15,520 --> 05:54:21,960
So there's an additional 13.1 million dollars in there about just under 10.1 or just under 11 million dollars

2349
05:54:21,960 --> 05:54:28,480
Sorry, would be considered ongoing savings so that items that if you made those changes they would continue on and out years

2350
05:54:28,480 --> 05:54:31,080
And you wouldn't have to increase taxes for in the next year

2351
05:54:31,920 --> 05:54:37,740
I do want to acknowledge with this table in the report there wasn't error in the table that's table 3.

2352
05:54:38,400 --> 05:54:42,980
It was showing a reduction of $13.9 million as opposed to $13.1 as we see here on the slide.

2353
05:54:43,400 --> 05:54:50,380
That was an order version of the table. The table included in attachment B is correct, so that table matches what we see here.

2354
05:54:50,880 --> 05:54:54,480
I just wanted to bring that table into attention and apologize for any confusion that may have caused.

2355
05:54:59,050 --> 05:55:06,890
When looking at the FTEs, we did identify that there are 9.5 FTEs that could be either deferred or removed from this year's budget.

2356
05:55:07,570 --> 05:55:11,350
That would actually bring about an additional savings of $706,000.

2357
05:55:12,650 --> 05:55:27,530
The reason that the FTE reductions are not more significant is really when we are doing our budget and I think it came out earlier this morning that there's significant vacancies through this organization, we actually account for those vacancies when we're doing our budget.

2358
05:55:27,530 --> 05:55:37,010
So we've actually built in $23.6 million of a credit into our budget, so that's $23.6 million that we will not tax for this year because we acknowledge that there are vacancies.

2359
05:55:37,570 --> 05:55:41,670
So that's already built into our budget, that's that 7.6% that numbers in there.

2360
05:55:42,310 --> 05:55:51,970
That's why when we did a review of the vacancies and of the FDE positions, we didn't identify a larger amount that we could actually save this year as a result of any position changes that could come forward.

2361
05:55:51,970 --> 05:55:59,050
We did find 9.5 FTEs and worth about $706,000 that you can take a savings this year.

2362
05:56:03,930 --> 05:56:07,410
And we did just want to flash up vacancies by business unit.

2363
05:56:07,610 --> 05:56:13,130
I won't go through this all, but 87% of our vacations are in what we call our course services

2364
05:56:13,130 --> 05:56:14,850
so our operations and public safety.

2365
05:56:15,650 --> 05:56:20,810
And of those positions, approximately 50% of our current vacant positions are, they're

2366
05:56:20,810 --> 05:56:22,230
currently in some form of recruitment.

2367
05:56:22,230 --> 05:56:26,250
So somewhere within our hiring process, they've already been moving forward.

2368
05:56:26,970 --> 05:56:31,490
That's why, again, we didn't feel there were significant savings to be had from vacant

2369
05:56:31,490 --> 05:56:34,490
positions through this budget, they've already been factored in.

2370
05:56:38,070 --> 05:56:44,470
And just wanted to quickly flush up chart, compares our staffing versus population growth.

2371
05:56:45,270 --> 05:56:50,010
Municipal FTEs, they're pretty consistently around just under 1% of the total population,

2372
05:56:50,250 --> 05:56:50,970
of the municipality.

2373
05:56:52,250 --> 05:56:57,090
as the municipality grows, those positions have grown in tandem with that as we're providing

2374
05:56:57,090 --> 05:57:02,950
new services or services to a growing population. We have to have additional staff to provide

2375
05:57:02,950 --> 05:57:08,950
those services. So we do acknowledge there are issues with attracting and retaining employees

2376
05:57:08,950 --> 05:57:11,410
over as we continue to grow the number of employees that are there.

2377
05:57:15,270 --> 05:57:20,030
So now we want to actually look at the, we did identify three scenarios for tax changes

2378
05:57:20,030 --> 05:57:22,030
is based on all the options on the bell.

2379
05:57:22,770 --> 05:57:25,650
So these are additional or initial starting points

2380
05:57:25,650 --> 05:57:26,290
for the discussion.

2381
05:57:26,430 --> 05:57:27,830
These are ones that staff have come up with,

2382
05:57:27,950 --> 05:57:29,430
but it's really up to council whether or not

2383
05:57:29,430 --> 05:57:31,310
they want to take any of them or none of them.

2384
05:57:31,690 --> 05:57:33,730
You have the option to do individual items

2385
05:57:33,730 --> 05:57:34,710
or you can group them yourselves.

2386
05:57:34,950 --> 05:57:37,490
We just group these together as a starting point

2387
05:57:37,490 --> 05:57:38,150
for the conversation.

2388
05:57:39,890 --> 05:57:43,170
So option one would provide you with a flat tax rate.

2389
05:57:43,910 --> 05:57:46,370
So the tax rate impact for here,

2390
05:57:46,410 --> 05:57:48,950
it would be a slight decrease of 0.003.

2391
05:57:48,950 --> 05:57:51,750
your average tax bill impact would be $107.

2392
05:57:52,690 --> 05:57:57,050
We also identified an option that would only use sustainable reductions.

2393
05:57:57,550 --> 05:57:58,430
So this is option two.

2394
05:57:59,030 --> 05:58:02,150
You do get a slight increase to the rate of 0.018.

2395
05:58:02,390 --> 05:58:06,190
It's $175 and 46 cents for your average tax bill increase.

2396
05:58:07,070 --> 05:58:11,450
And then we also took that same option two with the sustainable cuts and

2397
05:58:11,450 --> 05:58:17,130
identified a few items from the bell that we'd be able to fund with those sustainable cuts

2398
05:58:17,130 --> 05:58:21,190
to keep you at that 7.6% increase that we're currently at.

2399
05:58:21,810 --> 05:58:24,730
So again, that would have a rate impact of 0.02 to increase,

2400
05:58:25,070 --> 05:58:27,730
and you'd be at $189 average tax bill increase.

2401
05:58:32,710 --> 05:58:34,770
Looking a little closer at option one,

2402
05:58:34,930 --> 05:58:36,090
our flat tax rate increase.

2403
05:58:36,790 --> 05:58:38,170
In order to achieve this,

2404
05:58:38,430 --> 05:58:41,610
what you would have to do is not approve any of the over items

2405
05:58:41,610 --> 05:58:42,530
that are currently on the ballot.

2406
05:58:43,390 --> 05:58:45,430
It also have to utilize the $10 million

2407
05:58:45,750 --> 05:58:47,210
from the central library reserve,

2408
05:58:47,430 --> 05:58:50,410
and use that to decrease our taxes for the year.

2409
05:58:51,190 --> 05:58:55,910
You'd have to use the operating capital and FTE reductions that we identified in those tables.

2410
05:58:56,590 --> 05:59:07,310
And you'd have to use all the unders on the bow, excluding the ARV and the operating portion of the trees as well as the cat and the D transfer tax cut.

2411
05:59:08,290 --> 05:59:17,630
So this would provide you with a total reduction of $23 million and that would use one time funding that would be approximate increase of 2.4% next year.

2412
05:59:17,630 --> 05:59:21,510
So we did that one time funding would have to be made up for next year's budget

2413
05:59:21,510 --> 05:59:27,050
That's going to be 2.4% before we even talked about any of the compensation increases the

2414
05:59:27,610 --> 05:59:30,750
Contrash will increase is the inflationary increases that we see every year

2415
05:59:30,750 --> 05:59:34,730
So that would be your starting point for next year's budget would order to be at 2.4% increase

2416
05:59:38,410 --> 05:59:44,450
Looking at the we also have a table here just to show you the individual bowel items that you would need to include

2417
05:59:44,450 --> 05:59:48,430
With that and we have that motion is well listed as one of the alternatives within the budget

2418
05:59:51,940 --> 05:59:54,800
Moving on to our Sustainable Reductions option, so option two.

2419
05:59:55,540 --> 05:59:59,000
As you can see, we've again listed out the bell items that we'd have to do.

2420
05:59:59,000 --> 05:59:59,980
So, this is for...

2421
06:00:00,000 --> 06:00:17,760
There are no cases on our permanent cuts. So these were ones that you will save you money this year, but they'll also save you money in the next year and the out years. So it's a cut now that doesn't come back and increase taxes in the future. So we're trying to avoid short-term taxes, but it could mean reducing or scaling back on services if council wants to go that way.

2422
06:00:22,620 --> 06:00:33,880
And finally, option three. It's those same sustainable cuts, but we've also included a few of the increases. That would allow you to fund the community crisis diversion pilot, the drop in center,

2423
06:00:33,880 --> 06:00:36,580
the RCMP staffing, the youth advocate program,

2424
06:00:37,600 --> 06:00:42,020
the operating at 10 buses, as we talked about,

2425
06:00:42,640 --> 06:00:44,760
human resources partner for transit,

2426
06:00:45,000 --> 06:00:47,260
or the human resources business partner for transit as well.

2427
06:00:47,820 --> 06:00:48,900
All of those could now be funded

2428
06:00:48,900 --> 06:00:50,720
without having an increase to the tax rate

2429
06:00:50,720 --> 06:00:52,860
that we're currently seeing that 7.6% increase.

2430
06:00:54,640 --> 06:00:57,700
So once again, these are just the starting point

2431
06:00:57,700 --> 06:00:58,300
for the discussion.

2432
06:00:58,600 --> 06:01:00,100
Council can take any of these options,

2433
06:01:00,360 --> 06:01:01,220
or you can take none of them,

2434
06:01:01,440 --> 06:01:03,600
and you can make your own individual items.

2435
06:01:03,600 --> 06:01:07,700
you can do your own groupings. This is just our way of helping you start that discussion.

2436
06:01:10,800 --> 06:01:15,420
Just quickly on fiscal sustainability. So the kind of some of the guidelines we use for

2437
06:01:15,420 --> 06:01:21,220
looking at which cuts are sustainable or not. General approach around here is you want to maintain

2438
06:01:21,220 --> 06:01:26,000
one-time funding for one-time costs. So if you're using one-time funding, you don't want to fund

2439
06:01:26,000 --> 06:01:31,360
ongoing expenses. Those are just going to result in a tax increase in the next year. If you have

2440
06:01:31,360 --> 06:01:34,200
recurring costs, you can fund them from recurring revenues.

2441
06:01:35,080 --> 06:01:40,280
Tax increases, ideally you want them to mirror inflation when you can in certain cases.

2442
06:01:41,100 --> 06:01:45,400
We use inflation as a proxy of what your tax increase should be, but if you have other

2443
06:01:45,940 --> 06:01:49,580
costs here, if your compensation is going on more than inflation, that's not going to work.

2444
06:01:50,700 --> 06:01:55,820
But it's generally, or it's our rule of thumb of where you want to be in an average year.

2445
06:01:56,960 --> 06:02:00,680
We also want to make sure we're building up our reserves to fund future projects and

2446
06:02:00,680 --> 06:02:03,600
to have in case of a rainy day or for use in emergencies.

2447
06:02:03,880 --> 06:02:05,060
We saw that in the last couple of years.

2448
06:02:05,060 --> 06:02:07,900
We've had a lot of significant storms that hit our region.

2449
06:02:08,500 --> 06:02:12,820
And we've had to rely on our reserve funds to actually make those expenses that have come out of there.

2450
06:02:13,260 --> 06:02:17,540
So we want to be able to have those funds available whenever there's an emergency and we need those funds.

2451
06:02:19,100 --> 06:02:21,860
And finally, last piece on fiscal sustainability.

2452
06:02:22,680 --> 06:02:25,360
You always want to be looking more in just the current fiscal year.

2453
06:02:25,360 --> 06:02:39,300
You want to be looked at the out years, the impacts you're going to have on those because the decisions you make today have long reaching the implications and you want to make sure that the decisions you're making today are going to result in tax increases down the road that are increasingly unsustainable.

2454
06:02:44,760 --> 06:02:49,960
So some future budget implications and this is where we start taking some of that longer view look.

2455
06:02:51,340 --> 06:03:05,560
So next year we're expecting or we're going to be facing $45 to $60 million increases and that's not including any of those one time funding things that may be done so that's going to be your base that's probably in the range of 60% already.

2456
06:03:08,100 --> 06:03:12,180
Expecting increases before any bell changes, that's our compensation costs, they're going

2457
06:03:12,180 --> 06:03:12,940
to continue to increase.

2458
06:03:13,300 --> 06:03:16,420
We have a lot of collective agreements coming due in the next year or so.

2459
06:03:16,980 --> 06:03:18,480
Those are going to drive up your costs.

2460
06:03:19,620 --> 06:03:23,520
Our debt costs continue to rise as our capital plan continues to grow.

2461
06:03:23,800 --> 06:03:28,220
So as those capital projects come due, we're going out to take debt to fund a lot of those.

2462
06:03:28,380 --> 06:03:32,580
We've pushed a lot of our capital onto debt funding in order to maintain our tax rates

2463
06:03:32,580 --> 06:03:37,960
rates in the current year in previous years, so those debt costs are coming at us and

2464
06:03:37,960 --> 06:03:41,920
it's something we need to be aware of because we'll show it on a slider in a bit, but those

2465
06:03:41,920 --> 06:03:45,880
costs are going to have a significant impact on your tax increases required in out years.

2466
06:03:47,380 --> 06:03:51,580
We also have some pro-rated costs here, so costs, if we know something's not going to start

2467
06:03:51,580 --> 06:03:55,120
to midway through this year, we'll only budget for half that, you're going to get that full

2468
06:03:55,120 --> 06:03:57,320
year cost in the next year's budget, so those costs are going to come.

2469
06:03:58,100 --> 06:04:03,560
And our capital plan is still going to require significant funding as we look to do our

2470
06:04:04,780 --> 06:04:07,640
maintenance on capital and our keeping our roads and everything going.

2471
06:04:08,540 --> 06:04:10,820
That's going to require significant funding as well.

2472
06:04:11,080 --> 06:04:15,440
So all of these things are going to result in that $45 to $60 million increase and again

2473
06:04:15,440 --> 06:04:18,460
that's before we talk about anything that we're having to make up for for this year.

2474
06:04:21,970 --> 06:04:24,390
Now looking at the debt, these are our debt servicing costs.

2475
06:04:24,830 --> 06:04:26,910
So this is what we have to tax for each year.

2476
06:04:27,670 --> 06:04:32,530
And you can see right now this year, 2025, we are in a bit of a dip, we took a little

2477
06:04:32,530 --> 06:04:36,270
bit of a smaller debenture this year than we planned, so we're down at about $43 million.

2478
06:04:36,850 --> 06:04:40,010
But we do expect that to climb significantly over the next several years.

2479
06:04:40,910 --> 06:04:44,790
So as long as those projects are done and those projects are getting completed, we're having

2480
06:04:44,790 --> 06:04:48,570
to take that debt and these are the costs that are going to be coming as a result of that.

2481
06:04:48,690 --> 06:04:52,110
So that number is going to continue to rise and we're going to have to continue to tax

2482
06:04:52,110 --> 06:04:52,690
that every year.

2483
06:04:53,190 --> 06:04:56,490
So we want it to flag that because those are significant costs that are coming your way.

2484
06:04:56,490 --> 06:05:02,390
we want to make sure we're not doing things now that might impact our taxes on top of this growth

2485
06:05:03,010 --> 06:05:03,870
in those out years.

2486
06:05:14,620 --> 06:05:17,600
So just looking at the ballot itself, the process for today.

2487
06:05:18,460 --> 06:05:23,940
So we have indexed the ballot. Every ballot item has a number and that you can find your ballot

2488
06:05:23,940 --> 06:05:29,460
on attachment A. So you'll see every item there has a ballot number. Ball 23 is our other savings.

2489
06:05:29,620 --> 06:05:34,180
That's got some about 30 items included in that one. So there is a bit of a subheading for each one

2490
06:05:34,180 --> 06:05:38,420
those, but we've identified each one with a specific number, so for ease of discussion

2491
06:05:38,420 --> 06:05:38,700
today.

2492
06:05:43,560 --> 06:05:47,220
So the process for today, anything that's decided on today, we're going to be keeping

2493
06:05:47,220 --> 06:05:53,360
track of that. So our starting point is that 7.6% for a post budget. Whenever there's a

2494
06:05:53,360 --> 06:05:57,940
motion made to add a single battle item, bundle item or whatever, one decade's approved,

2495
06:05:59,180 --> 06:06:03,720
Tyler and Dan are going to be doing the calculations, keep us up to date on what we are actually looking

2496
06:06:03,720 --> 06:06:09,060
have for a tax impact as we go. So we're going to be doing that live for any decisions that you

2497
06:06:09,060 --> 06:06:13,840
make so you don't always know exactly where you are in terms of what the impact we're going to be

2498
06:06:13,840 --> 06:06:15,080
doing on our final tax bill is.

2499
06:06:17,600 --> 06:06:21,640
And we just wanted to finish with looking at our tax bill. So when

2500
06:06:21,640 --> 06:06:25,520
we, the reason we have a couple people here doing these calculations is these are all the different

2501
06:06:25,520 --> 06:06:30,860
rates that we actually have to keep track of as we're doing these calculations. So we've got 26 different

2502
06:06:30,860 --> 06:06:34,920
rates, any change we make on the expense side will impact each of these rates.

2503
06:06:35,100 --> 06:06:39,220
So we have to make sure we're properly counting for that and what that's going to be so

2504
06:06:39,220 --> 06:06:41,620
we can give you the proper tax implication as we go forward.

2505
06:06:41,840 --> 06:06:46,360
So just wanted to flag that, let everyone, help everyone understand the level of complexity

2506
06:06:46,360 --> 06:06:51,600
that is our tax bill and wanted to make sure everyone here was ready for that debate.

2507
06:06:51,720 --> 06:06:54,120
So I think that's the end of our presentation.

2508
06:06:54,800 --> 06:06:58,900
I know it's a little bit of abbreviated, but hoping we got the information you need, we're

2509
06:06:58,900 --> 06:07:01,840
here for any questions to have and let's go.

2510
06:07:09,680 --> 06:07:13,880
So you're ready? Thank you very much for

2511
06:07:13,880 --> 06:07:19,740
the presentation. Councillor Austin, I know that you buzzed in first. Council, Cleary

2512
06:07:19,740 --> 06:07:23,880
has something. Would you allow that? Thank you so much, Councillor Cleary.

2513
06:07:25,120 --> 06:07:30,960
Thank you, Madam Chair and thank you, Budget Committee. And also thanks to our staff.

2514
06:07:33,220 --> 06:07:33,820
I'll

2515
06:07:33,820 --> 06:07:37,480
the hard work you put in for months and months and months putting this together and presenting

2516
06:07:37,480 --> 06:07:38,000
it to us.

2517
06:07:38,500 --> 06:07:43,080
And of course thanks to our residents who sent us information over the last number of

2518
06:07:43,080 --> 06:07:47,140
months on all kinds of topics and the special thanks to all the residents who showed up at

2519
06:07:47,140 --> 06:07:51,580
our various budget meetings to present their views in person, very much appreciated.

2520
06:07:52,640 --> 06:07:58,000
We have certainly, from my point of view, the most transparent, comprehensive and exhaustive

2521
06:07:58,000 --> 06:08:02,660
budgeting process that I've ever seen or I'm aware of, especially when you compare

2522
06:08:02,660 --> 06:08:07,020
us to the other orders of government. You don't see this from the province or the feds.

2523
06:08:07,080 --> 06:08:10,940
They do it all behind doors with cabinet, and then it's presented, and it's a fate of complete.

2524
06:08:12,500 --> 06:08:15,980
And I don't know if it was actually von Bismarck who said, you know, you should never see laws and

2525
06:08:15,980 --> 06:08:22,280
sausages made in public. But I hope halagony still have healthy respect for our sausages and our budget

2526
06:08:22,940 --> 06:08:28,220
process after this. And I will talk about the budget globally later, but specifically what I want

2527
06:08:28,220 --> 06:08:35,340
want to do now because of the motion I brought earlier for the budget adjustment list but

2528
06:08:35,340 --> 06:08:42,380
also because of the timeliness of the presentations the intervention by Joe and Brandon earlier

2529
06:08:42,380 --> 06:08:48,300
today from our firefighters. So I would just like to put a motion on the floor that the budget

2530
06:08:48,300 --> 06:08:54,720
committee recommend to regional council that we direct the CAO in consultation with the IAFF,

2531
06:08:54,720 --> 06:09:00,240
specifically our local 268. The province of Nova Scotia and our service providers to establish

2532
06:09:00,240 --> 06:09:06,200
a comprehensive firefighter cancer screening program effective to be effective no later than

2533
06:09:06,200 --> 06:09:09,300
January 1st, 2026. So

2534
06:09:12,340 --> 06:09:19,240
very briefly on this you know we talked about it when I put it on the

2535
06:09:19,240 --> 06:09:25,140
budget adjustment list originally we had very impassioned intervention by Brandon Mar and

2536
06:09:25,960 --> 06:09:37,200
and some of our public who showed up in support of the firefighters who I don't know if they were originally thinking they were going to be supporting the firefighters when they showed up, but certainly after that presentation they did so as well.

2537
06:09:38,240 --> 06:09:52,100
And I know this might sound like it's far off in the future to say January is essentially the end of the year, but the idea is this is direction to our staff to go set up a program, work with the partners and the funding folks,

2538
06:09:52,100 --> 06:09:57,560
and of course health care is provincial, so with the province, to build a program and

2539
06:09:57,560 --> 06:10:01,380
start doing the screening. We are not saying explore it, we're saying go do it. However

2540
06:10:01,380 --> 06:10:06,640
that ends up looking, so I do want to assure our firefighters that we've got your back.

2541
06:10:06,820 --> 06:10:11,580
This is what we're serious about. We're telling our CAO to go do this, and so I'm very happy

2542
06:10:11,580 --> 06:10:16,120
with the discussion and moving forward on this. So thank you, Madam Chair.

2543
06:10:16,120 --> 06:10:16,700
So

2544
06:10:46,620 --> 06:10:48,020
everyone, oh,

2545
06:10:54,430 --> 06:10:57,650
there are no speakers on the list, is the question being called?

2546
06:10:58,770 --> 06:11:00,710
Thank you very much, shall we all proceed to vote?

2547
06:11:12,040 --> 06:11:12,980
Motion has passed.

2548
06:11:13,260 --> 06:11:18,860
Thank you very much, Councillor Cleary. Councillor Austin, for the main motion as well, please.

2549
06:11:20,580 --> 06:11:24,180
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll go ahead and put the motion on the floor.

2550
06:11:24,680 --> 06:11:28,160
I move that the Budget Committee direct the Chief Administrative Officer to finalize the

2551
06:11:28,160 --> 06:11:37,580
the 2025-26 operating capital budget and for your capital plan for regional council incorporating any accepted items from the budget adjustment list along with the proposed amendments.

2552
06:11:52,320 --> 06:12:02,320
Thank you, Miss Chair. And thank you to everyone around the room, colleagues and staff who've all participated and members of the public who joined us today.

2553
06:12:02,500 --> 06:12:10,180
I think today in a lot of ways was the microcosm of the whole kind of clash of priorities and challenges around resources that we all face.

2554
06:12:10,180 --> 06:12:14,460
And, you know, that all lands ultimately with us.

2555
06:12:14,860 --> 06:12:20,000
And, you know, when I looked through the staff report, I was very much struck by, you know,

2556
06:12:20,260 --> 06:12:28,180
I think it's a very solid piece of work, honestly, in terms of recognizing the role that staff have

2557
06:12:28,180 --> 06:12:29,500
and the role that we have, right?

2558
06:12:29,660 --> 06:12:30,960
Ultimately, this is our budget.

2559
06:12:31,260 --> 06:12:33,480
This is this council's budget, it belongs to us.

2560
06:12:34,100 --> 06:12:37,340
Staff have given us their expert advice, which is their role.

2561
06:12:37,340 --> 06:12:43,420
And, you know, we're wise to heed and consider it, but ultimately it's up to us now.

2562
06:12:43,600 --> 06:12:47,780
This is probably the most important council meeting of the whole year, or at least one

2563
06:12:47,780 --> 06:12:51,880
of them, for sure, when we go through our adjustment list and make the budget our own.

2564
06:12:52,900 --> 06:12:58,620
And so in that regard, what I'm looking for out of this is, you know, there was very much

2565
06:12:58,620 --> 06:13:02,680
a theme in what staff have come back with their expert advice, and it's a theme that I think

2566
06:13:02,680 --> 06:13:08,420
It's really important for us all to consider as we decide what you want to maybe add what

2567
06:13:08,420 --> 06:13:14,840
cuts you might want to go for when we weigh all those decisions and that is sustainability

2568
06:13:16,440 --> 06:13:21,600
because it doesn't do us a whole heck of a lot of good to be passing our problems to next

2569
06:13:21,600 --> 06:13:22,860
year or the year after that.

2570
06:13:23,080 --> 06:13:27,380
Whatever we decide to do today, whether it's to spend more money, whether it's to make cuts

2571
06:13:27,380 --> 06:13:31,260
to afford other things, it needs to be sustainable.

2572
06:13:31,260 --> 06:13:42,200
We can't base our budgets on, you know, spending what we have in the here and now, and then being doubly behind the eight ball next year or the year after that.

2573
06:13:42,500 --> 06:13:50,780
So that's what I'm looking for this. I have my own perspective. I think the services that we provide, the things we do in the municipality are really important.

2574
06:13:50,960 --> 06:13:54,000
I think we make a very big contribution and a difference out there.

2575
06:13:54,000 --> 06:13:57,460
that people might not always understand.

2576
06:13:57,660 --> 06:14:00,040
I mean, you'd notice, if we disappeared,

2577
06:14:00,320 --> 06:14:02,520
you'd notice the municipal government was gone pretty quick.

2578
06:14:02,520 --> 06:14:03,920
You might go a week before you noticed

2579
06:14:03,920 --> 06:14:05,560
that whether Ottawa was still there or not.

2580
06:14:06,700 --> 06:14:07,920
We're close to the ground.

2581
06:14:08,140 --> 06:14:08,940
The stuff we do matters,

2582
06:14:09,220 --> 06:14:12,300
and you get all of that on a relative bargain

2583
06:14:12,300 --> 06:14:13,520
in the grand scheme of things.

2584
06:14:13,520 --> 06:14:16,460
You get all the ingredients that make civilization possible.

2585
06:14:16,900 --> 06:14:18,300
So we do important work.

2586
06:14:18,400 --> 06:14:20,460
It's meaningful to the people that we represent.

2587
06:14:20,460 --> 06:14:26,260
they're also stressed regarding finances, and so we have to weigh all these things very carefully.

2588
06:14:27,180 --> 06:14:33,140
So really what I urge you all to consider as we start this debate is whether you want to add

2589
06:14:33,140 --> 06:14:39,060
something, whether you want to cut back on something, just keeps the long-term sustainability of this

2590
06:14:39,060 --> 06:14:47,380
municipality in your mind because I'll play back to the extent that it's been around a little while.

2591
06:14:47,380 --> 06:14:49,700
I'll reference back to the past councils.

2592
06:14:50,120 --> 06:14:52,320
We had some challenges around, you know,

2593
06:14:52,460 --> 06:14:54,560
well, do we take the kind of short-term measure?

2594
06:14:54,820 --> 06:14:55,900
And occasionally we did.

2595
06:14:56,480 --> 06:14:58,880
And some of what we are dealing with today

2596
06:14:58,880 --> 06:14:59,880
is because of some of those.

2597
06:15:01,580 --> 06:15:28,640
So, I urge you all to think over the long term. So, that's kind of my big picture budget thought. I did have one question for staff here. The homelessness measures where that's coming out of reserve and, I mean, contradict myself a little bit. I would prefer if they were long term funded, but for this year I would take reserve, especially where the AIN team is new,

2598
06:15:28,640 --> 06:15:38,360
where then we would have within a year presumably a report back to us on results and then we could decide whether we wanted to continue it, it's almost still pilot phase to me.

2599
06:15:39,320 --> 06:15:45,100
What I'm wondering where that is proposed zero dollar impact, does that still need to be moved?

2600
06:15:49,800 --> 06:15:56,360
Because this is budget and business plans, like is that built into the business plan or do you need a positive motion from us here today to do that?

2601
06:15:57,120 --> 06:16:01,960
No, because we actually have the funding already set aside for within the reserve and it's part of the

2602
06:16:02,740 --> 06:16:05,240
Falls under the offices of the work they were to do

2603
06:16:05,240 --> 06:16:08,880
I think we can go without having to make a motion to do that because they already have the direction

2604
06:16:09,460 --> 06:16:14,640
To do that work that it's very similar to what they actually did prop for it as a report last year to get direction on

2605
06:16:14,640 --> 06:16:16,340
That's why that money sit in the reserve

2606
06:16:16,340 --> 06:16:21,680
So there's no motion needed to do it that we would need a motion if we were to give an additional permanent funding this year

2607
06:16:21,680 --> 06:16:26,180
But I think it'll come back as part of next year's budget at which point you'll be able to provide it with that additional

2608
06:16:26,180 --> 06:16:35,880
if permanent funding should that be something the council wishes to do, but for this year, you have the money in the reserves, it's already approved, come out of the reserve, there's no need to actually do another motion to bring that forward.

2609
06:16:36,980 --> 06:16:39,820
Okay. Well, with that in mind, I'm not going to move a motion.

2610
06:16:42,120 --> 06:16:52,100
This is the drop-in, drop-in, after hours, it's about 0-0-1, so there's no budget implication.

2611
06:16:52,100 --> 06:16:57,800
and well, that's fine with me. I'd prefer if it was long-term funded, but I see the value of

2612
06:16:57,800 --> 06:17:02,960
let's have a year worth of activity with the aim team, and then that report could come back to

2613
06:17:02,960 --> 06:17:07,780
us and then we can decide, hey, is this something we want to continue to do once we've seen that impact

2614
06:17:07,780 --> 06:17:12,700
over the course of a year. So I'm okay with doing that. Thank you very much, Councillor Austin. You're

2615
06:17:12,700 --> 06:17:20,480
over time. Come back. Absolutely, Councillor Kent. Thank you very much Madam Chair, and thank you,

2616
06:17:20,480 --> 06:17:26,900
Councillor for putting that motion on the floor. This is this is hard work, but we all made

2617
06:17:26,900 --> 06:17:30,980
the decision to come in and do it. I think that we've had some really good dialogue

2618
06:17:30,980 --> 06:17:38,460
and discussions along the way. Today is when we really have to slice and dice this this

2619
06:17:38,460 --> 06:17:46,200
ball list, because I don't believe for a second that we can capture all of it. And frankly, I'm

2620
06:17:46,200 --> 06:17:54,120
I'm not sure that I agree with any one of the options that came for, or although I appreciate that they were put forward, so we have that perspective, right?

2621
06:17:54,760 --> 06:18:06,920
But I will put a couple of motions on the floor, and I want to see how they all sort of work their way through, so I'm going to start the process of doing one or two at a time.

2622
06:18:07,540 --> 06:18:11,240
I'll test the water there and then see where we go.

2623
06:18:11,240 --> 06:18:17,260
So I realize, and just to remind folks that we will be, our staff will be keeping a tab

2624
06:18:17,880 --> 06:18:21,920
on the implications of each of the, each of the moves that we make.

2625
06:18:22,140 --> 06:18:29,480
But I really think that these two are critical to our, I think our, I'm going to call it the

2626
06:18:29,480 --> 06:18:34,380
sustainability piece because, physically, we have to be sustainable, but service delivery,

2627
06:18:34,540 --> 06:18:39,220
that's what we're here for, too, and that has to be something that is sustainable and

2628
06:18:39,220 --> 06:18:47,580
effective for our communities based on the impact, the insight and engagement that we

2629
06:18:47,580 --> 06:18:54,940
have with them, and we had today and over the budget process, but also based on what

2630
06:18:54,940 --> 06:19:00,460
we are hearing from our staff. So I will put a motion for that the Budget

2631
06:19:00,460 --> 06:19:05,980
Committee amend the motion to direct Chief Administrative Officer to finalize the 2025-26

2632
06:19:05,980 --> 06:19:10,140
operating budget, capital budget, and four-year capital plan for regional council,

2633
06:19:10,640 --> 06:19:16,980
incorporating BAL-003, Community Crisis Diversion Pilot Service,

2634
06:19:17,640 --> 06:19:25,700
as outlined in attachment A and B, and two, as well, incorporating BAL-008,

2635
06:19:26,580 --> 06:19:31,660
which is the RCMP staffing request of 14 positions, and I'll leave it there for now.

2636
06:19:32,580 --> 06:19:39,820
Thank you, thank you, Councilor Hartling, crisis, community crisis.

2637
06:19:40,880 --> 06:19:48,060
Yeah, so I'll speak to both the community crisis diversion pilot is one that I believe

2638
06:19:48,060 --> 06:19:57,660
strongly is really, really an acknowledgement of the many, many, many people who came not

2639
06:19:57,660 --> 06:20:02,360
not only to this council but to the Board of Police Commission that I served on over the

2640
06:20:02,360 --> 06:20:10,860
last four years around new delivery models for responses and supports for people experiencing

2641
06:20:10,860 --> 06:20:18,720
mental health crisis. So, this one is led by our brilliant team, led by Dr. Amy Cisliano.

2642
06:20:18,980 --> 06:20:24,880
We are privileged really to have her on our team and I know our commissioner Bill Moore

2643
06:20:24,880 --> 06:20:30,340
would agree with us on that. A lot of work was done. This is a pilot. This is meant to be

2644
06:20:30,340 --> 06:20:37,500
what I believe is the Edmonton model. I think correct is that, right? Yeah, it's the Edmonton

2645
06:20:37,500 --> 06:20:47,460
model. It's with a twist for our city and that it's meant to be something that, and I believe,

2646
06:20:47,640 --> 06:20:52,820
based on what I've heard from it, that we can sustain and move forward with and we must.

2647
06:20:52,820 --> 06:21:06,780
That's about resourcing our, allowing our police resources to do their core policing as they should and only being involved when a crisis becomes a volatile situation.

2648
06:21:07,380 --> 06:21:13,460
And so when police are needed, so the first delivery and first contact would be would not be the police.

2649
06:21:13,460 --> 06:21:19,080
The second piece that I speak to is the 14 positions for the RCMP.

2650
06:21:19,700 --> 06:21:20,520
I said it before.

2651
06:21:20,740 --> 06:21:21,360
I'll say it again.

2652
06:21:21,560 --> 06:21:22,920
We are growing municipality.

2653
06:21:23,920 --> 06:21:32,560
Our expectations for growth into the rural areas of our municipality are very real and

2654
06:21:32,560 --> 06:21:39,280
we know that the RCMP are contracted now with the municipality to serve those areas.

2655
06:21:39,280 --> 06:21:46,280
And there is a will from them to and an interest of them to return to the community policing

2656
06:21:46,280 --> 06:21:52,360
office model, which I recall when I was on council the first time in 2004 to 2007,

2657
06:21:52,560 --> 06:22:00,520
that community policing offices were in a pilot space and with the anticipation that

2658
06:22:00,520 --> 06:22:05,700
we would go there, fell off the rail for a number of years and now it's being considered

2659
06:22:05,700 --> 06:22:12,720
at the best practice again. So I'm excited about that. I know that the position for two community

2660
06:22:12,720 --> 06:22:19,560
officers being positioned this year, Beachville and Fall River, each of them are requiring six FTEs,

2661
06:22:19,640 --> 06:22:28,440
not all officers, but also support positions. The other is the community policing officer for

2662
06:22:28,440 --> 06:22:34,500
sheet harbor having one FTE and the traffic services position, which is them for

2663
06:22:34,500 --> 06:22:39,800
Muscatob and Harbor. So those are the 14 that are being asked for this year and

2664
06:22:39,800 --> 06:22:44,400
and I don't need to just go over all the ones that are looking forward because I

2665
06:22:44,400 --> 06:22:51,100
think people can can take the time to do that. But I know that people have brought

2666
06:22:51,100 --> 06:22:58,760
to our attention that we don't need more policing resources. It costs to deliver policing.

2667
06:23:00,080 --> 06:23:07,780
The cost to deliver policing without the bodies to do it effectively has the potential to

2668
06:23:07,780 --> 06:23:19,940
be much higher and much more difficult to live with than to re-look at our budget to support

2669
06:23:19,940 --> 06:23:25,760
it, re looking at our budget to support it. I agree with a person that presented earlier

2670
06:23:25,760 --> 06:23:35,000
today that food security is a community safety issue. It really is. And that would be another

2671
06:23:35,000 --> 06:23:45,020
example of some opportunities for new models of delivery. So we have an obligation to be

2672
06:23:45,020 --> 06:23:54,000
be ready and really catch up to the growth that we have here in the municipality. I am happy

2673
06:23:54,000 --> 06:23:58,780
to support these positions. Look forward to hearing what other Councillors will have

2674
06:23:58,780 --> 06:24:05,340
to say on it. And I hope that you'll support these two parts of this motion. Thank you.

2675
06:24:06,200 --> 06:24:10,680
Thank you, Councillor Klery. Thank you, Madam Chair.

2676
06:24:12,200 --> 06:24:18,340
and obviously these will be splits we can vote on them separately because I can vote for one and not for the other.

2677
06:24:18,820 --> 06:24:24,420
So the community crisis diversion pilot happy to support that because that's an investment.

2678
06:24:24,620 --> 06:24:30,020
It has a payoff in the sense that we actually need fewer police resources hopefully with that program.

2679
06:24:31,000 --> 06:24:36,600
And I've made this argument previously so I'll just restate it very quickly for the RCMP 14 new positions.

2680
06:24:36,600 --> 06:24:41,500
and I'll back up one second, and this was presented to us by our staff.

2681
06:24:42,660 --> 06:24:46,120
And Councillor Oster talked about sustainability in our budget.

2682
06:24:46,420 --> 06:24:54,320
So one of the biggest drivers of our structural funding for operations increases over the

2683
06:24:54,320 --> 06:24:58,180
years is FTEs, it's full-time staff, it's employees.

2684
06:24:59,400 --> 06:25:06,200
And so over the last number of years, adding more and more positions means that your

2685
06:25:06,200 --> 06:25:10,740
We're increasing the cost because you have more people, but every single year after that,

2686
06:25:11,120 --> 06:25:15,520
because whether, especially if the unionized collective agreements are through non-unionized,

2687
06:25:15,700 --> 06:25:21,260
the formula we have for increases in compensation means that those go up every year.

2688
06:25:21,680 --> 06:25:24,080
And so there's an increase to that.

2689
06:25:24,620 --> 06:25:29,660
And including some other factors, I think Mr. Harley pointed out, that we're looking at a minimum,

2690
06:25:29,820 --> 06:25:34,300
68% increase in the budget next year, and a lot of that is salaries.

2691
06:25:35,040 --> 06:25:39,300
There's some other things to inflation and other things, but a good portion of that

2692
06:25:39,300 --> 06:25:39,540
sellers.

2693
06:25:40,400 --> 06:25:47,680
So, reimagining our approach to public safety includes retasking the from police to

2694
06:25:47,680 --> 06:25:52,020
more civilianized services, and that's what the community crisis diversion pilot is going

2695
06:25:52,020 --> 06:25:52,760
to help us with.

2696
06:25:53,840 --> 06:25:58,600
And if you look at some of the data that was in the report that HRP in particular provided

2697
06:25:58,600 --> 06:26:04,140
to us, but in the RCMP presentation as well, overall crime severity index has been

2698
06:26:04,140 --> 06:26:09,900
stable or decreasing. Violent crime severity index has gone below the national average again

2699
06:26:09,900 --> 06:26:14,160
for here in Halifax. Calls for service are not increasing dramatically. In fact, they're

2700
06:26:14,160 --> 06:26:20,480
stable if you look over the last five years. So I'm not sure if we're adding more civilianized

2701
06:26:20,480 --> 06:26:25,000
resources to deal with some of these public safety issues, why you would then continuously

2702
06:26:25,000 --> 06:26:32,820
add to the police because we're taking off their plate some of these things and their plate

2703
06:26:32,820 --> 06:26:38,660
it hasn't grown very much in terms of what they have to do, so it's not like they're overwhelmed,

2704
06:26:39,440 --> 06:26:43,180
and although they, some of them say they are, but if you look at what they've been doing the

2705
06:26:43,180 --> 06:26:47,720
last few years and you look at where we're going for the next year, it's kind of like, well, they're

2706
06:26:47,720 --> 06:26:51,960
doing the same amount of work. Why would we add more people when we're also adding more civilianized

2707
06:26:51,960 --> 06:26:55,960
employees to do some of that stuff that we're taking off their plate? Sorry, for that reason,

2708
06:26:56,160 --> 06:26:59,260
and I've mentioned this before, I'd probably be unsuccessful again because everyone loves their

2709
06:26:59,260 --> 06:27:11,460
But I will vote for the BAL-003 Community Crisis Diversion pilot, but I cannot vote for 14 more officers, especially for the RCMP.

2710
06:27:11,820 --> 06:27:12,600
Thank you, Madam Chair.

2711
06:27:13,460 --> 06:27:14,900
Thank you, Councillor Cleary.

2712
06:27:15,220 --> 06:27:16,120
Councillor Sainamond.

2713
06:27:17,260 --> 06:27:27,380
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to build off of Councillor Cleary's point, you know, looking at the first part of this, the Community Crisis Diversion pilot,

2714
06:27:27,380 --> 06:27:30,560
But this is still just a pilot.

2715
06:27:30,720 --> 06:27:33,020
So the fruit that it will bear is yet to be determined.

2716
06:27:33,540 --> 06:27:40,740
So I don't think we have a great one-to-one ratio here in terms of service delivery in

2717
06:27:40,740 --> 06:27:46,320
one area, delivering necessarily a one-to-one service reduction in another area.

2718
06:27:46,460 --> 06:27:47,720
We're just not there yet.

2719
06:27:48,460 --> 06:27:54,220
So I can understand why these things don't quite add up on either side of the ledger.

2720
06:27:55,040 --> 06:28:00,600
Just to speak for a moment about the crisis diversion pilot, I mean, ultimately this is

2721
06:28:00,600 --> 06:28:06,200
a community good delivery, you know, and that, to me, is a core municipal service.

2722
06:28:06,940 --> 06:28:13,660
You know, we're trying to build a better municipality for the people that live here, and this

2723
06:28:13,660 --> 06:28:18,500
is exactly the type of service that I think, you know, we're dipping our toe into it by doing

2724
06:28:18,500 --> 06:28:21,320
a pilot, but this is exactly the type of service we should be looking at.

2725
06:28:21,820 --> 06:28:40,520
because it does have the, arguably, we're kind of guessing a little bit as to what the impact is, but I think we can understand that there is a natural, and there's an intention that this will wind up reducing the amount of pressure that there are, there is on police services, but other social services as well.

2726
06:28:40,520 --> 06:28:46,740
It is also an alternative proactive service delivery which is consistent with the direction

2727
06:28:46,740 --> 06:28:50,900
that we have historically given to the municipality.

2728
06:28:52,040 --> 06:29:00,000
It is a redirection of police resources and because it's a pilot and I'm expecting, you know,

2729
06:29:00,140 --> 06:29:03,640
as soon as you use the term pilot you expect that there's going to be a degree of measurement

2730
06:29:03,640 --> 06:29:04,040
to it.

2731
06:29:04,440 --> 06:29:07,780
So we're going to have real metrics to be able to use.

2732
06:29:07,780 --> 06:29:12,620
we're going to be able to measure and adjust and refine the delivery of that program over time

2733
06:29:12,620 --> 06:29:17,560
such that we can reap better benefits from it as we get better and better at the service delivery.

2734
06:29:18,240 --> 06:29:24,120
And potentially even expand the service as its impact becomes a little bit more well-known

2735
06:29:24,120 --> 06:29:30,700
and we're able to steer our resources appropriately in order to ensure that the delivery of that service

2736
06:29:30,700 --> 06:29:34,500
is reaping the benefit that we're actually chasing by having it in the first place.

2737
06:29:34,500 --> 06:29:39,300
So, that is a service that I think is absolutely warranted, including here.

2738
06:29:39,880 --> 06:29:40,240
Thanks.

2739
06:29:42,530 --> 06:29:44,530
Thank you, Councillor Sainamon and Councillor Hartling.

2740
06:29:46,330 --> 06:29:47,550
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

2741
06:29:47,750 --> 06:29:50,250
Thank you very much, Councillor Kent, for putting this on the floor.

2742
06:29:50,570 --> 06:29:52,530
You have my full support in this.

2743
06:29:53,030 --> 06:29:59,350
I understand that if I could just follow up with Councillor Sainamon's point there, I feel like

2744
06:29:59,350 --> 06:29:59,810
And

2745
06:30:00,000 --> 06:30:29,520
The two services should not be conflated. I don't think that they are, I don't think that having the one service, the one valid, I don't think that that takes away from the current need for a greater RCMP presence in some of our more rural communities. Certainly within the rural communities, I think that there is a profound need for a continued and better presence for RCMP. That is something that for somebody like me.

2746
06:30:29,520 --> 06:30:32,340
I get asked about every single day, right?

2747
06:30:32,640 --> 06:30:35,280
Like this is, I would argue that this is the need

2748
06:30:35,280 --> 06:30:38,900
to look at metrics about how Halifax is doing generally.

2749
06:30:39,160 --> 06:30:41,640
I think that that is smart and I think that that's fair.

2750
06:30:42,160 --> 06:30:45,920
However, to say that we don't need more RCMP

2751
06:30:45,920 --> 06:30:47,700
in our rural communities, I don't think

2752
06:30:47,700 --> 06:30:49,580
that that is necessarily representative

2753
06:30:49,580 --> 06:30:51,820
of the amount of growth that we do go through.

2754
06:30:55,560 --> 06:30:58,500
Yeah, if I could just maybe leave it there

2755
06:30:58,500 --> 06:31:04,480
just because I think that we need to understand policing services beyond just the metrics in

2756
06:31:04,480 --> 06:31:08,940
terms of, you know, how safe we are creating it. I think that we also need to consider population

2757
06:31:08,940 --> 06:31:15,060
as well, as well as net need. Yeah, geography and need, so I will leave it there. But thank you very

2758
06:31:15,060 --> 06:31:19,540
much. I'll be supporting this. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Hartling.

2759
06:31:28,480 --> 06:31:28,480
Councillor

2760
06:31:28,480 --> 06:31:36,380
the community crisis, would that be just piloted in the urban service boundary?

2761
06:31:37,200 --> 06:31:46,560
Because RCMP of course are peripheral boundaries, the rural areas that are in desperate need for more boots on the ground out there.

2762
06:31:47,160 --> 06:31:52,500
So I don't think that there's much of an overlap here, but I could be wrong.

2763
06:31:52,820 --> 06:31:56,140
And then yes, and there's Amy, thank you Amy.

2764
06:31:56,140 --> 06:32:04,620
me. And I just keep thinking of Tim Outhet saying this is going to cost us a lot of money.

2765
06:32:07,420 --> 06:32:18,020
And my focus is on the folks in my district that can't afford an increase and to be initiating

2766
06:32:18,020 --> 06:32:26,500
new programs, even though this is such a good idea.

2767
06:32:27,780 --> 06:32:33,940
There's a real conflict, but anyway, thank you Amy for answering the geographic question.

2768
06:32:42,800 --> 06:32:44,900
Just buzz in and we're all great welcoming me.

2769
06:32:45,520 --> 06:32:50,120
Thank you, Amy Cislano, Public Safety Advisor with Community Safety through you, chairs who

2770
06:32:50,120 --> 06:32:51,900
cancel the pretty things for the question.

2771
06:32:51,900 --> 06:33:00,100
there would be overlap, the community crisis service that we're proposing would run in a small

2772
06:33:00,100 --> 06:33:04,520
geographic area so it wouldn't cover the entire, for the pilot, it wouldn't cover the entire

2773
06:33:05,110 --> 06:33:14,790
of HRM. Our intention would be, as a previous Councillor mentioned, to evaluate it, monitor how we're

2774
06:33:14,790 --> 06:33:19,690
and expand it as the results indicate we should expand it.

2775
06:33:19,890 --> 06:33:24,650
So I will say that we don't have the exact geography

2776
06:33:24,650 --> 06:33:27,910
determined yet because we're still looking at call data

2777
06:33:27,910 --> 06:33:30,990
to ensure that we're putting it in the most appropriate place.

2778
06:33:32,190 --> 06:33:34,710
But that's as much as I can share at this point.

2779
06:33:37,670 --> 06:33:38,690
Thank you very much.

2780
06:33:39,470 --> 06:33:42,130
Mayor Fillmore is on the list, but I think he's buzzed in for me.

2781
06:33:42,550 --> 06:33:44,010
So we'll go to Councillor Austin.

2782
06:33:46,060 --> 06:33:56,140
Okay. Surprise. So, I'm really much where Councillor Clary is. I think the, you know,

2783
06:33:56,240 --> 06:34:02,760
the alternative approach is really important. It's a pilot program for those of us who've

2784
06:34:02,760 --> 06:34:08,580
had the chance to, you know, participate in discussions across the country, FCM. It's

2785
06:34:08,580 --> 06:34:13,580
a model that works, right? Like, we're not reinventing the wheel here. It is effective in

2786
06:34:13,580 --> 06:34:20,260
other places, and it takes work off the police and it gives it to people who are more specialized

2787
06:34:20,260 --> 06:34:26,720
in being able to do that. I've used the example in the past of paramedics in the 1970s and

2788
06:34:26,720 --> 06:34:31,160
how transformational that was. I think this is where we are society wise. We're having

2789
06:34:31,160 --> 06:34:36,080
another moment, and if we skip forward 20, 30 years, we'll just never remember a time that

2790
06:34:36,080 --> 06:34:41,740
there wasn't mental health diversion type resources on call. So I think that's where we're

2791
06:34:41,740 --> 06:34:52,900
I think this is really essential work, I think it will pay dividends and I expect that when we do the pilot, what we'll find is when it comes back is it'll be something that we'll be wanting to grow and expand from there.

2792
06:34:53,380 --> 06:35:00,980
So fully on board with that, I'm not going to vote for the RCMP one. I didn't when it was first proposed.

2793
06:35:02,180 --> 06:35:07,320
And it really just, for me, it comes down to this piece about, you know, there's so much going on around policing.

2794
06:35:07,700 --> 06:35:14,340
And, you know, in past years, past councils, I didn't support adding HRP officers when they were requested.

2795
06:35:14,860 --> 06:35:19,180
I just can't, when we're in the midst of deciding what the direction is around policing.

2796
06:35:19,720 --> 06:35:24,360
Add more uniformed officers, unless there's a really, really solid case.

2797
06:35:24,680 --> 06:35:27,580
And I just don't think that that case has been solidly made on this.

2798
06:35:27,580 --> 06:35:32,280
I'm going to ask staff, where are we with the whole police

2799
06:35:32,280 --> 06:35:35,880
transformational stuff that has been initiated?

2800
06:35:36,580 --> 06:35:40,000
Like, when is that actually going to, you know,

2801
06:35:40,240 --> 06:35:43,240
I know it's a slow process, it's a long process to look

2802
06:35:43,240 --> 06:35:47,000
at those fundamental questions, you know, like even

2803
06:35:47,000 --> 06:35:50,660
where the appropriate boundary is between HRP and RCMP

2804
06:35:50,660 --> 06:35:52,900
and everything else under the sun regarding policing?

2805
06:35:53,480 --> 06:35:56,380
When is that work actually slated to come back to us?

2806
06:35:56,380 --> 06:36:00,860
because, you know, it'd be easier to add people if we knew where we were going.

2807
06:36:07,270 --> 06:36:11,250
Madam Chair, through to the Councillor, thanks for the question. Bill Moore, Commissioner

2808
06:36:11,250 --> 06:36:16,110
of Public Safety. So, what I would say is that the work has been ongoing. Quite frankly,

2809
06:36:16,230 --> 06:36:21,550
there's been, we were, for a lot of the work we're waiting for the HRP Chief to be finalized,

2810
06:36:21,630 --> 06:36:29,330
which has now occurred. We have a joint schedule for meeting of the strategic, between HRP and

2811
06:36:29,830 --> 06:36:35,510
And in my new role now, I've actually taken the transformation project with me to this new role.

2812
06:36:35,870 --> 06:36:36,610
So that's underway.

2813
06:36:37,030 --> 06:36:41,610
You're correct, there was an aviability of the integrated model report that was to come back to the council.

2814
06:36:42,210 --> 06:36:46,990
In discussion, as you're probably aware, the province is doing a policing review now, provincially.

2815
06:36:47,490 --> 06:36:52,150
So we're waiting to see the results of that report to be able to weave that into what we are doing.

2816
06:36:52,910 --> 06:36:58,930
We are having discussions preliminary right now in relation to areas that we can look at,

2817
06:36:59,350 --> 06:37:03,730
including updating the MOUs, are there areas that we can look at for integration?

2818
06:37:04,430 --> 06:37:09,950
There's been no direct discussion up to this point on any boundary changes or anything in those nature.

2819
06:37:10,530 --> 06:37:15,110
But it is part of my work plan and I'll leave it at that and defer to the subject.

2820
06:37:15,110 --> 06:37:17,610
So is that a few years realistically?

2821
06:37:17,610 --> 06:37:21,050
basically? Like I don't know what the province's schedule is.

2822
06:37:22,870 --> 06:37:32,450
Thank you. So our initial schedule of implementation of the results of the policing transformation

2823
06:37:32,450 --> 06:37:40,130
study, you recall I think we had presented it to Council around maybe end of May or June

2824
06:37:40,130 --> 06:37:46,650
of 2023. Later that fall, the province announced they were going to do the provincial policing

2825
06:37:46,650 --> 06:37:57,810
services review. Just this week in the NSFM released what they heard report through

2826
06:37:57,810 --> 06:38:06,150
their survey of policing agencies, municipalities with police forces in the province. And this

2827
06:38:06,890 --> 06:38:11,650
spring, later on, we do anticipate there will be something being released coming out of

2828
06:38:11,650 --> 06:38:22,490
the provincial review, and in the meantime, we have been trying to work on the, I'll

2829
06:38:22,490 --> 06:38:29,170
refer to them as low-hanging fruit, the things that are going to approve our interoperability

2830
06:38:29,770 --> 06:38:38,050
between RCMP and HRP in the meantime. So we are not going to be positioned to take any

2831
06:38:38,050 --> 06:38:43,290
large strategic decisions until we see what comes out of the final provincial review.

2832
06:38:44,170 --> 06:38:51,350
And also I did notice earlier this week or late last week, one of the last things that

2833
06:38:51,350 --> 06:38:57,650
the former Prime Minister Trudeau did on his way out of office was to express some opinion

2834
06:38:57,650 --> 06:39:04,070
about establishment of federal policing type force using the RCMP.

2835
06:39:04,070 --> 06:39:07,810
So I think we've got to wait and see what happens federally also.

2836
06:39:08,570 --> 06:39:15,430
So in the meantime, I'm really pleased that we've got the Commissioner of Public Safety on board now.

2837
06:39:16,230 --> 06:39:23,490
And it's going to be starting to work directly with the Chief Superintendent of the Halifax Detachment and

2838
06:39:23,490 --> 06:39:25,690
the Chief of Halifax Regional Police.

2839
06:39:26,150 --> 06:39:33,150
And I think the next update on the work being done under the Policing Transformation Study is scheduled

2840
06:39:33,150 --> 06:39:35,530
to come to Council in,

2841
06:39:38,500 --> 06:39:44,140
yeah, I think it's around May. So the other thing that will come forward is

2842
06:39:44,700 --> 06:39:50,940
in June Council receives a report from the Board of Police Commissioners that has the work

2843
06:39:50,940 --> 06:39:55,580
they've done in the last year plus their work plan for the current year. So you'll see some of it in

2844
06:39:55,580 --> 06:39:56,960
that. Thank you.

2845
06:39:59,220 --> 06:40:05,500
Thank you, Councillor Austin. Oh, I just wanted one of the pieces of work that I

2846
06:40:05,500 --> 06:40:08,140
I don't want to add there because I think it's important to the conversations being

2847
06:40:08,140 --> 06:40:08,300
hit.

2848
06:40:08,960 --> 06:40:14,920
So, for instance, the next board of police commission's meeting, Dr. Slano will actually be presenting

2849
06:40:14,920 --> 06:40:16,600
on the public safety strategy to the police board.

2850
06:40:17,160 --> 06:40:20,360
So we're starting to see the, because one of the pieces that came out of the policing transformation

2851
06:40:20,360 --> 06:40:22,280
was to build out the community safety function.

2852
06:40:22,460 --> 06:40:24,900
That was one of the deliverables in the policing transformation study.

2853
06:40:25,320 --> 06:40:27,340
So we are actually moving on that.

2854
06:40:27,560 --> 06:40:33,940
We have working groups from HRP, RCMP, and community safety that are working at mental health,

2855
06:40:34,100 --> 06:40:34,780
looking at the diversion.

2856
06:40:34,780 --> 06:40:37,960
So, that work is being done cross-pollination.

2857
06:40:38,560 --> 06:40:43,140
So, there is work being done in that alternate response space with both police agencies.

2858
06:40:46,220 --> 06:40:48,060
Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

2859
06:40:48,240 --> 06:40:49,160
We can switch chairs.

2860
06:40:49,360 --> 06:40:50,900
I think Councillor Kent would like to close.

2861
06:41:14,240 --> 06:41:15,460
Madam Chair, there are floor zeros.

2862
06:41:16,020 --> 06:41:17,280
Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

2863
06:41:18,740 --> 06:41:22,800
Thank you, Councillor Kent, for putting, whoops, we need to turn off.

2864
06:41:25,430 --> 06:41:25,850
Good.

2865
06:41:30,910 --> 06:41:32,130
Thank you so much.

2866
06:41:32,670 --> 06:41:34,190
I was hearing my own echo.

2867
06:41:34,190 --> 06:41:42,540
So thank you, Councillor Kent, for putting this on the floor.

2868
06:41:43,800 --> 06:41:44,580
It's really interesting.

2869
06:41:44,640 --> 06:41:45,820
I didn't think it would get to this today.

2870
06:41:45,880 --> 06:41:53,440
I thought we would be doing this by far, but it's great to have this conversation now.

2871
06:41:54,240 --> 06:42:00,200
I find it kind of interesting that the two Councillors say that they can't support it or not support

2872
06:42:00,200 --> 06:42:04,380
it by the RCMP, that their policing service is HRP.

2873
06:42:04,880 --> 06:42:08,980
And so a small amount, yes, a very small amount.

2874
06:42:10,320 --> 06:42:15,180
So I can speak for Fall River and say that our community has been working with the RCMP

2875
06:42:15,180 --> 06:42:20,480
now for about four years looking to say why we wanted to have a community office.

2876
06:42:21,460 --> 06:42:25,460
And there's a distinction between, you know, an attachment and a community office

2877
06:42:25,460 --> 06:42:29,660
and I really appreciated the conversation this morning from one of the speakers that said,

2878
06:42:29,880 --> 06:42:31,680
you know, what does community in front of it mean?

2879
06:42:31,680 --> 06:42:35,940
And actually what it means is the community safety and a presence.

2880
06:42:36,740 --> 06:42:42,400
And the stats that the RSNP and our community have worked together on is that, yes, the

2881
06:42:42,400 --> 06:42:43,940
calls for service has increased.

2882
06:42:44,520 --> 06:42:49,880
In terms of fall, where the pressure on the lower sackful detachment has been rather significant

2883
06:42:49,880 --> 06:42:56,460
and so because that's where the fall, river, Waverly, Wellington, Oakfield, all of that community

2884
06:42:56,460 --> 06:42:58,620
is being service by and Waverly.

2885
06:42:58,620 --> 06:43:04,660
So the, um, and the future growth, so the business about business, uh, briefing

2886
06:43:04,660 --> 06:43:09,560
note that we got did qualify, uh, the need and seeing the identified need.

2887
06:43:10,120 --> 06:43:16,500
Um, so, and, and the other thing is like, on the other side of things, I also said I

2888
06:43:16,500 --> 06:43:23,180
agree with retasking that there are positions within our policing services that shouldn't

2889
06:43:23,180 --> 06:43:24,480
be by uniform officers.

2890
06:43:24,480 --> 06:43:33,920
So this increase or this having a community office doesn't detract from that at all, it actually says that we're going to put more resources in the community where they're needed.

2891
06:43:34,580 --> 06:43:44,880
So I do hope that people will look at this and see where it is that its suburban and rural does need to have the kinds of support from policing.

2892
06:43:44,880 --> 06:43:48,640
We look about, you know, where are we, where are our taxes going?

2893
06:43:48,780 --> 06:43:52,820
And in the suburban rural place, the first two things everybody says is that it's fire

2894
06:43:52,820 --> 06:43:53,500
in its police.

2895
06:43:54,540 --> 06:43:59,940
Well, 50% of her firefighting force in all of HRM is volunteer.

2896
06:44:00,280 --> 06:44:03,580
And in the rural and suburban, the majority is volunteer.

2897
06:44:04,060 --> 06:44:07,560
So then you're looking at the police force and it is RCMP.

2898
06:44:07,980 --> 06:44:10,340
And that is actually where we want to see the support.

2899
06:44:10,340 --> 06:44:16,020
and the nice thing is that when we talk to the RCMP about what this community office will be like,

2900
06:44:16,620 --> 06:44:21,960
it'll be with public consultation, it'll be about where are the officers, what are the times,

2901
06:44:22,380 --> 06:44:25,660
how is this going to work, how is it going to really reflect the need of the community?

2902
06:44:26,120 --> 06:44:30,060
So it is something that can be uniquely delivered in terms of community office.

2903
06:44:30,300 --> 06:44:32,740
So I do hope that you'd support it. Thank you very much.

2904
06:44:37,750 --> 06:44:41,770
Well, the chair comes up, I can see that Councillor Gillis is next.

2905
06:44:45,520 --> 06:44:46,860
Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

2906
06:44:48,600 --> 06:44:53,160
I just want to say I'm going to support Councillor Kent's motion on this, of both parts of it.

2907
06:44:53,420 --> 06:44:58,640
I think it's important that the RCMP have the tools what they need to do their job.

2908
06:45:00,000 --> 06:45:29,800
My district is totally, totally covered by RCMP. I don't have HRP, it's sackful at all. And yeah, just like Councillor Deagle-Gammon said, you know, six officers for Fall River, which then lightens the load on Laura Sackville, enables them to do more proactive patrols. I'm sure you guys get lots of calls and everything for, you know, speeding, you know, all kinds of different calls.

2909
06:45:29,800 --> 06:45:34,960
and stuff like that. And I think this is a great initiative and I think this is something

2910
06:45:34,960 --> 06:45:39,360
I can support. So I'd like to say I would support Councillor Kent. Thank you.

2911
06:45:40,200 --> 06:45:45,080
Thank you Councillor Gillis. Just a moment we were to go to four o'clock is council okay

2912
06:45:45,080 --> 06:45:49,880
for us to finish this to get to a vote on these. Awesome. Is that consensus?

2913
06:45:53,200 --> 06:45:55,960
We're good. Okay. Councillor White.

2914
06:45:59,320 --> 06:46:01,480
I do need to leave round 425.

2915
06:46:04,660 --> 06:46:14,770
Okay. I support the community crisis, is that what, yes, diversion program. I can't vote

2916
06:46:14,770 --> 06:46:22,930
for the policing and the reason for me is financial life. I wanted to try and make some

2917
06:46:22,930 --> 06:46:32,350
reductions in the HRP budget with the body cams and that didn't go anywhere. I really appreciate

2918
06:46:32,350 --> 06:46:40,010
the community policing model. I do want that to happen. I see the benefits already with HRP

2919
06:46:40,010 --> 06:46:47,670
in my district. So, you textbook voted this morning and there's been other enforcement issues

2920
06:46:47,670 --> 06:46:54,510
working with the new constable that have just been things solved right away. So, I totally

2921
06:46:54,510 --> 06:47:01,350
appreciated I'm feeling this from a budget pinch. I would have wanted to save elsewhere, but that

2922
06:47:01,350 --> 06:47:03,970
that didn't happen, so that's why I'm going to vote against the policing part.

2923
06:47:04,430 --> 06:47:04,690
Thanks.

2924
06:47:05,870 --> 06:47:08,010
Thank you, Councillor White. Councillor Steele.

2925
06:47:09,330 --> 06:47:11,670
Oh, there I go. I wasn't flashing.

2926
06:47:12,790 --> 06:47:17,230
Okay. A couple of comments. I will be supporting both.

2927
06:47:18,270 --> 06:47:22,370
I do want to say that Community Crisis Diversion Pilot.

2928
06:47:22,610 --> 06:47:28,630
I still feel that we should be looking for other sources of funding around this.

2929
06:47:29,290 --> 06:47:36,430
The pilot is great once we do it and if we find out that it works and that it's effective, I think we need to find other sources of funding.

2930
06:47:36,690 --> 06:47:40,630
Because I think what we're really talking about mostly here is mental health support.

2931
06:47:41,370 --> 06:47:45,950
And so for the mental health support, I'd love to find some other sources of funding.

2932
06:47:45,950 --> 06:47:52,070
And it does appear as if there are other funding partners out there, but I'm willing to fund the pilot.

2933
06:47:52,070 --> 06:47:57,630
But I don't want to give the impression that this is going to be the long term and every

2934
06:47:57,630 --> 06:47:59,030
year we're going to do more of it.

2935
06:47:59,670 --> 06:48:06,950
On the RCMP, I can support it, unlike Councillor Dagle-Gammon, I haven't been part of a big community

2936
06:48:06,950 --> 06:48:07,350
effort.

2937
06:48:07,890 --> 06:48:11,110
I was only elected last fall, so I haven't been part of that.

2938
06:48:11,470 --> 06:48:17,430
But I'm comforted by the fact that there will be community consultation on what the community

2939
06:48:17,430 --> 06:48:23,570
policing office in the Beachville Lakeside Timberley area would look like. And I will say

2940
06:48:23,570 --> 06:48:28,690
that I'm probably somewhat unique in that I have both HRP and RCMP quite a bit of both

2941
06:48:29,330 --> 06:48:35,050
in my district. So I have seen kind of the evidence of both and I'm willing to support the

2942
06:48:35,050 --> 06:48:42,350
motion brought forward by Councillor Kent. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor Steele. May I feel more?

2943
06:48:43,910 --> 06:48:48,950
Thank you. Just to ask that we vote on the two items separately. That's all. Thank you.

2944
06:48:50,910 --> 06:48:51,750
Councillor Austin?

2945
06:48:55,180 --> 06:49:02,000
Okay, sure. I'll go now. I just wanted to comment, Miss Chair. I don't

2946
06:49:02,000 --> 06:49:08,120
know what the intent of the comment was, but you know, my record on policing budgets, and

2947
06:49:08,120 --> 06:49:12,220
actually he's not here right now, but it's pretty much Councillor Clarke will has been the

2948
06:49:12,220 --> 06:49:18,720
same is I voted against HRP officers adding I voted against RCMP officers adding I've been

2949
06:49:18,720 --> 06:49:23,340
completely consistent on we need to figure out what we do with policing and so if the

2950
06:49:23,340 --> 06:49:29,200
insinuation that it's interesting that the counselors that are not supporting this are ones

2951
06:49:29,200 --> 06:49:34,100
who don't have RCMP and therefore we don't care about policing in rural areas I just want to be

2952
06:49:34,100 --> 06:49:40,100
if that was what that was meant by that okay I appreciate that because I take exception to that

2953
06:49:40,100 --> 06:50:09,380
I had very much so because this is my, this is core philosophical belief here that I have been consistent about when it's in my own community and I've had to tell people that like, well, I'm sorry I don't support adding HRP officers at this time for the same reason my one exception was during COVID and you'll remember some of the in-camera discussions when we were in a pretty severe staffing situation or regarding policing so but other than that one year, I have not supported

2954
06:50:10,060 --> 06:50:15,660
uniformed officers in HRP or RCMP and I think my colleague, the clock, crossed the way is the same.

2955
06:50:16,080 --> 06:50:16,500
Thank you.

2956
06:50:16,720 --> 06:50:17,000
Thank you.

2957
06:50:17,040 --> 06:50:17,640
Thank you, Councilor Hauston.

2958
06:50:17,780 --> 06:50:18,260
Point taken.

2959
06:50:18,520 --> 06:50:19,300
Wasn't my intention.

2960
06:50:20,480 --> 06:50:21,060
Councilor Perdi.

2961
06:50:22,340 --> 06:50:26,940
The chair and I just wanted to pick up on Councillor Steele's comment about funding and another

2962
06:50:26,940 --> 06:50:30,420
question for Yemi.

2963
06:50:31,100 --> 06:50:38,580
Is funding going to be actively pursued during this pilot project from perhaps the federal

2964
06:50:38,580 --> 06:50:45,220
government to see if ongoing monies can be brought into this in future years.

2965
06:50:47,330 --> 06:50:53,010
Amy Cisliano, through you, Chair to the Council. Thank you, Councillor Perdi. I have been

2966
06:50:53,010 --> 06:50:59,430
in discussion with the province since we've started working on this pilot. To date,

2967
06:50:59,610 --> 06:51:06,550
I have no news to share around potential funding sources from other levels of government, but

2968
06:51:06,550 --> 06:51:09,390
But I am actively pursuing those.

2969
06:51:10,050 --> 06:51:14,510
I think it's also important to say that we are also looking at what's happening in

2970
06:51:14,510 --> 06:51:22,850
jurisdictions across Canada and from the knowledge that I have right now, municipalities

2971
06:51:22,850 --> 06:51:30,230
are offending this service because they are seeing a diversion in calls that are going to 911

2972
06:51:30,230 --> 06:51:31,390
and ending up this police.

2973
06:51:31,390 --> 06:51:38,450
So it's something that the police are already doing, and we're already funding police to do,

2974
06:51:38,730 --> 06:51:42,690
and so this would be an alternative to something that we actually are already

2975
06:51:42,690 --> 06:51:51,110
resourcing. Okay, in your professional experience doing this, how likely is it that there would be

2976
06:51:51,110 --> 06:51:58,580
some new funding stream coming online from like a federal government source in the next year or so?

2977
06:52:00,180 --> 06:52:05,320
Well, I can't say, for sure, especially at the federal level because we don't know

2978
06:52:05,320 --> 06:52:05,740
what's happening.

2979
06:52:06,120 --> 06:52:12,340
I do know that we've had great success working with the Office of Addiction and Mental

2980
06:52:12,340 --> 06:52:17,540
Health in a great example of that is they're cost sharing the stabilization center of 50-50

2981
06:52:17,540 --> 06:52:18,080
with us.

2982
06:52:18,620 --> 06:52:23,920
And that was direction from Council to ensure that we got that funding and they're stepping

2983
06:52:23,920 --> 06:52:32,360
out because of the healthcare component that that stabilization center would be providing

2984
06:52:32,360 --> 06:52:38,040
for some primary care to folks. So this particular service that we're talking about today,

2985
06:52:38,180 --> 06:52:49,780
the crisis response service, would not be staffed by healthcare workers just as in other jurisdictions

2986
06:52:49,780 --> 06:52:58,820
like Toronto and Ottawa, but staffed with folks who have specialized training,

2987
06:52:59,200 --> 06:53:02,800
training that some of you have taken, like nonviolent crisis intervention, mental health

2988
06:53:02,800 --> 06:53:07,440
foresaid, those types of training. So we wouldn't be providing a health care service.

2989
06:53:07,820 --> 06:53:13,260
There wouldn't be health care workers employed. It would be specially trained individuals

2990
06:53:13,260 --> 06:53:21,720
to respond to instances of crises that, in many cases right now, are police are responding to.

2991
06:53:23,100 --> 06:53:23,440
Okay.

2992
06:53:23,900 --> 06:53:24,320
Thank you.

2993
06:53:25,260 --> 06:53:27,860
Thank you, Councillor Kent to close.

2994
06:53:28,800 --> 06:53:30,040
Yes, thank you, Madame Chair.

2995
06:53:30,200 --> 06:53:33,280
Thank you, colleagues, for your input on these motions.

2996
06:53:33,280 --> 06:53:40,920
I appreciate the support that was clearly articulated for the crisis model, intervention model.

2997
06:53:40,920 --> 06:53:43,900
I'm going to focus my closing on the RCMP piece.

2998
06:53:44,460 --> 06:53:52,540
I want to recognize first that the payoff notion for the RCMP is in relation to the

2999
06:53:52,540 --> 06:53:59,060
structure for RCMP, you know, that's already in place and is functioning very well in

3000
06:53:59,060 --> 06:54:07,880
our communities that's contracted and Price Waterhouse Cooper report that we ask for strongly

3001
06:54:07,880 --> 06:54:09,320
recommends the integrated model.

3002
06:54:09,320 --> 06:54:18,620
So with that, there has to be an expectation that we will resource them appropriately.

3003
06:54:19,480 --> 06:54:27,460
I can't say that planning for growth should solely be on current data.

3004
06:54:28,620 --> 06:54:33,020
What we have to forecast as well, this is around forecasting.

3005
06:54:33,020 --> 06:54:39,660
You know, we forecast transportation corridors, we forecast transit, we forecast infrastructure

3006
06:54:39,660 --> 06:54:40,100
needs.

3007
06:54:40,540 --> 06:54:45,260
We should also be forecasting what we need in the way of RCMP and HRP.

3008
06:54:45,840 --> 06:54:49,220
I want to focus right now specifically on our rural areas.

3009
06:54:50,320 --> 06:54:52,440
They are becoming suburban areas.

3010
06:54:52,880 --> 06:54:57,100
We have some in the lower sacrifice areas that already are being policed by the RCMP.

3011
06:54:57,100 --> 06:55:02,400
But equal to that, we are also have very large geographic jurisdictions.

3012
06:55:03,120 --> 06:55:12,080
And what I see now in this ask is a position being forwarded that our community policing offices

3013
06:55:12,880 --> 06:55:16,760
really should be looked at as alternative models.

3014
06:55:17,520 --> 06:55:23,240
When we look at that, we are talking about community offices that have policing

3015
06:55:23,240 --> 06:55:31,300
building, um, constables that support, um, public servants. We have people who have the

3016
06:55:31,300 --> 06:55:37,260
ability to liaise and create relationships with our community leaders, our teachers,

3017
06:55:38,000 --> 06:55:44,480
uh, our, our restorative justice programs. They have the ability because they're within

3018
06:55:44,480 --> 06:55:50,320
a community understanding the needs of that community to work on crime prevention programs

3019
06:55:50,320 --> 06:55:55,380
that they otherwise wouldn't be able to because geographically they could be in the other

3020
06:55:55,380 --> 06:56:02,340
end of HRM responding to something that takes them out of the community. And yes, that

3021
06:56:02,340 --> 06:56:08,240
will happen at some critical moments. But knowing that there's a community policing office

3022
06:56:08,240 --> 06:56:14,580
in communities can transform communities. They're faith in community, they get to know the

3023
06:56:14,580 --> 06:56:20,120
the hospitals that are serving them, they get to create all of the relationships with

3024
06:56:20,120 --> 06:56:25,540
the community builders that we speak about every single time we talk about alternative

3025
06:56:25,540 --> 06:56:33,560
models. And I think that the Preston offices are some of the best examples of that. So

3026
06:56:33,560 --> 06:56:37,940
I ask that you support this. This is the way to go forward. Thank you very much.

3027
06:56:38,300 --> 06:56:41,340
Thank you Councillor Kent. Councillor Perdi has buzzed in again.

3028
06:56:41,340 --> 06:56:48,400
I have, because we're in committee of the whole, so, haha, I have, no, okay, sorry.

3029
06:56:48,840 --> 06:56:53,100
This is, I'm feeling tormented here, I want to be able to support this, but I tell myself

3030
06:56:53,100 --> 06:56:55,300
I'm not voting for any extras on the ballot.

3031
06:56:56,260 --> 06:57:02,540
I was wondering if I could ask HRP, if they believe this is going to be a benefit, yeah,

3032
06:57:02,740 --> 06:57:10,120
for the community crisis diversion pilot project, the pilot project, do you feel this is going

3033
06:57:10,120 --> 06:57:14,860
to be an asset, a benefit to your officers on the grant.

3034
06:57:15,000 --> 06:57:16,360
This is going to free up your officers.

3035
06:57:17,300 --> 06:57:22,400
It's, I don't think it's going to be in our CMP territory though.

3036
06:57:23,000 --> 06:57:23,920
Thank you very much.

3037
06:57:24,740 --> 06:57:25,200
Welcome.

3038
06:57:25,640 --> 06:57:26,380
I'll keep it simple.

3039
06:57:26,620 --> 06:57:27,340
Chief Dom McLey.

3040
06:57:28,920 --> 06:57:29,240
Okay.

3041
06:57:29,700 --> 06:57:31,400
I think we should ask the RSMP to.

3042
06:57:31,800 --> 06:57:38,120
Is our CMP here as well, because we don't know the geographic area, but I would assume

3043
06:57:38,120 --> 06:57:41,980
It would be inside the service ban ribbon.

3044
06:57:43,180 --> 06:57:46,940
Do you see this as an asset to welcome your officers?

3045
06:57:49,570 --> 06:57:50,050
Yes.

3046
06:57:50,250 --> 06:57:50,690
Good afternoon.

3047
06:57:51,150 --> 06:57:56,210
Council, Superintendent Don Moser, Acting Officer and Chair for Hall of Action Regional

3048
06:57:56,210 --> 06:57:56,670
Attachment.

3049
06:57:57,210 --> 06:58:00,250
Chair, through you, to the Councillor, thank you very much for the question.

3050
06:58:00,770 --> 06:58:03,610
All that drama and lead up to say, absolutely agree with that.

3051
06:58:04,070 --> 06:58:09,150
And we couldn't be more on board with alternative service delivery and off boarding things that

3052
06:58:09,150 --> 06:58:13,830
don't fall with or shouldn't fall within the purview of the police. So wonderful, wonderful.

3053
06:58:14,250 --> 06:58:19,950
I think a place to lead on behalf of HRM and we would play our part supporting that,

3054
06:58:20,410 --> 06:58:24,790
but make it, I would say make no bones about it. We would play a supporting role in the

3055
06:58:24,790 --> 06:58:29,630
effectiveness and the sustainability at any such model as well. So thank you.

3056
06:58:29,930 --> 06:58:32,170
Thank you very much. Thank you, Councilor Portee.

3057
06:58:33,210 --> 06:58:38,310
Councilor Hartling. Yeah. Councilor Hartling, I do know

3058
06:58:38,310 --> 06:58:42,750
that two of our Councillors have a hard stop at 420, so I promise this will be so super

3059
06:58:42,750 --> 06:58:47,330
fast. If you could also speak to, and I'm actually looking at the RCMP right now because

3060
06:58:47,330 --> 06:58:55,350
I feel like there was a little bit of conflation there. With the success of the first program,

3061
06:58:55,730 --> 06:59:00,970
assuming that that was a wild success, would you still feel that we are in a position to

3062
06:59:00,970 --> 06:59:04,410
require the 14 new RCMP officers? Yes or no?

3063
06:59:05,890 --> 06:59:09,170
Chair, through you, to the Council, ma'am, thank you very much for your question.

3064
06:59:10,310 --> 06:59:13,470
I would say I would need to review the results of the pilot.

3065
06:59:14,570 --> 06:59:16,670
They wouldn't change the here and now.

3066
06:59:17,090 --> 06:59:21,290
It wouldn't change the substance of the request here and now because I believe that would be

3067
06:59:21,290 --> 06:59:25,230
in it, it would be in it, it would be in it, it would be in it, it would be in the form and

3068
06:59:25,230 --> 06:59:25,570
council.

3069
06:59:25,830 --> 06:59:29,450
I don't have the data to be able to say that, and I think it would be disingenuous to tell

3070
06:59:29,450 --> 06:59:30,970
you that would change things in here and now.

3071
06:59:31,390 --> 06:59:31,590
Okay.

3072
06:59:31,830 --> 06:59:32,390
Thank you very much.

3073
06:59:32,410 --> 06:59:33,050
I appreciate that.

3074
06:59:33,630 --> 06:59:44,110
Thank you, Councillor Hartling. Mr. Clerk, we're going to vote on the first one, which is the Bell 003, the Community Crisis Diversion pilot. Call for the question.

3075
07:00:00,530 --> 07:00:13,520
Motion has carried. Thank you very much. We will now vote on the ballot item 008, which is the RCMP staffing request. Call for the question.

3076
07:00:38,020 --> 07:00:45,740
Motion has carried. Thank you very much, everyone. And now what we will do is we will recess and reconvene on Friday morning at 9.30.