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Good evening. I'd like to welcome everyone here tonight to the Deism of Field Special Meeting of the Hennelgenic Planning Commission, and the purpose of that meeting tonight is to review changes to the comprehensive plan.

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First of all, I would like to ask Ms. Baderson, she would call the roll, please.

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Here. Mr. Live Better.

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Mrs. Averson here. Mr. Hadra.

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Here. Mr. Abbott.

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Here. Mr. McGee.

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Here.

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Here.

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I think I heard someone over this corner that might be able to catch a certain meeting sometime and lead us himself.

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At each of our meetings, we do allow 20 minutes, we've got citizens time, and that's time that we allow citizens to address the plan and commission on any.

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I don't, that is not one tonight's agenda that you would like to discuss with us or bring

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to our attention.

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So I'm going to open Susan's time at this right now and ask if there's anyone here who

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would like to address the commission and discuss anything that is not one tonight's agenda.

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It's a regime.

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So you know, no, no.

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I'll close Susan's time.

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We'll move right along to our political hearings that are advertised for someone clock,

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which is the Comprehensive Plan of Amendment CPA-1-17 at this time I'll turn it over to Mr.

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Garmin for his presentation.

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Planning Commission.

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As you're aware, May of 2017, the Board of Supervisors,

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authorized the Commission to begin the 2017-2037 update to the Comprehensive Plan.

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Subsequent to that, the staff held a series of community meetings eight to be exact for in the summer to get public input on the planned before it was drafted and then the fall together public comment on the plan after it was drafted.

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Planning Commission further held five public work sessions to discuss the citizens'

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comments and to provide staff direction for preparing an updated plan.

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And I'll be going through tonight some of the most significant changes to that plan.

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In section one, the growth management plan was updated with new population forecast

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based on the U.S. Census and county estimates,

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that assumption would be that the county would grow

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at a growth rate of 1.5%.

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We also updated the land capacity analysis

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using the new population forecast.

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The growth management plan,

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one minor change in the high was area here,

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and that would be the area west of that hatched line

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to be added to the suburban service area.

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The land use plan, section two,

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density range for the suburban general designation,

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which changed from one to four dwelling units per acre

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to one and a half to three and a half dwelling units per acre.

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And in the suburban high designation,

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the change from four to eight dwelling units per acre

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to three and a half to eight units per acre.

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The suburban transitional one to two dwelling unit per acre

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designation was eliminated or replaced with the general, with the suburban general, designation

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at one and a half to three and a half. Also, the multi-use designation, the recommendation

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was revised so then no more than 50% of the development be residential and no more than 25%

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of non-residential B for retail uses. And this is the proposed general land-use plan map.

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Some of the detailed changes, this corresponds with the expansion to the suburban service area.

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We went through just a minute ago.

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This would be a change from agricultural to commercial.

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This is in the highless area in the vicinity of Ponzi track in Ashland Road.

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This is an expansion of an existing commercial note in the cold harbor area.

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If you're familiar with Allison's garage, it's a triangle that's in the middle of this intersection.

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and it's currently zone B3.

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The existing commercial note reflected at the three. There was a request from some citizens to the planning commissioner and the board member to expand that commercial note to the adjoining properties.

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I will say, with this request and all the other land use requests, this does not change

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a property's zoning, and we change as the land use designation, and as zoning requests

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from the property owner can come later with specifics of that use in the design of the

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use.

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But it would need to be compatible with

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another request from a citizen was to change the designation.

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this is approximately a six-acre parcel,

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like joining what used to be shownies and I can't

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remember the name of the church, maybe you know Mr. Whitaker, that's on the west side of this,

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maybe church of the Creator. Here to the Creator, thanks so.

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This would be a change from the

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existing in suburban general, one-to-word dwelling units per acre, two industrial. This is in the

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along Virginia Crane 5. In the transportation section, we did add a reference to corridor specifications for at least station road.

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We did add standards for level of service for intersections when evaluating new development.

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We did eliminate two future thoroughfare, major collector from woodside lanes, five, the future

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route 1250,

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five, and a minor arterial from mechanic field turnpike to Creighton Road.

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Lead-out has reviewed the proposed land use changes, and the proposed changes to thoroughfare

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plan, and has stated that no additional traffic modeling would be required with this update.

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They are sending us a letter to confirm that

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email that V dot will be sending us a letter.

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Also, in response to a concerns submitted by a citizen during the update about transportation funding not being in our comprehensive plan.

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Staff consulted with V dot and V dot gave us an idea that other jurisdictions have referenced their applicable MPOs.

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So staff is recommending text, additional text to the transportation plan, and you've

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been handed out a copy of Section 3 Transportation on the second page, and it's in red,

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is the new language.

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It pretty much generally references the Richmond Regional Transportation Organization, which

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hand over as a part of, and that organization's Transportation Improvement Program, which provides

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approved projects, cost estimates, and obligated funds for those proposed projects.

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On the major thoroughfare plan map, the two changes that I referenced, this is the thoroughfare

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between Woodside Lane, on the eastern side of Ashland over to 95, and eliminating the

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corridor from metal bridge down to Creighton Road, which is also known as a 1250.

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The new conference of plan, we also added a section four active in healthy living.

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This is a new component of the plan.

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It addresses the impacts of the built environment on the health of the community.

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We encourage a environment that promotes active living, import, incorporate physical activity

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into the daily lives of its residents, fosters interaction among residents to encourage social

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cohesion and it supports the natural resource management to maintain and improve air and

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wallet water quality.

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In Section 5, utilities and community facilities plan was primarily updated with the new

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population forecast as they relate to future community facilities.

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The utilities component was updated to reflect utilities conducted since 2012 and additional

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facilities. We updated the fire EMS component to better forecast growth and to add two future

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stations on the map in the vicinity of our 95 years ago. And at pole green and rural point

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road,

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the classification of various parks on the park were changed based on their acreage

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facilities, identified schools that can be utilized during certain hours for their facility.

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There was an addition of a new park in the vicinity of Cold Harbor, not far from that proposed expansion at Ellison's garage.

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And we removed some future park locations that were determined.

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It's a public utility plan, electing the changes as proposed by our Public Utility Department.

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Community facilities plan is hard to tell on here, but it does show the future fire stations here near 995 in Lowestam,

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right in the area of a rural point in school.

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Park facilities plan is proposed by our Department of Parks and Recreation.

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The schools and libraries plan had no changes to it.

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Also, other sections of the comprehensive plan were updated references

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or revised strategies for better clarification,

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concluded section six in environmental section seven historic resources here to

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tourism, in Section 8 economic development, in Mr. Abbott Section 8 did include a reference

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about the Hanover Airporting Economic Impact that has.

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The historic resources map that were no changes to this, it was just updated to show.

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I think just one additional property that was listed on the State National Register and

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no changes to our economic development zones.

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With that staff does recommend a adoption of the draft resolution that recommends a

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approval of CPA1117 as an amendment to the Comprehensive Plan for Hanover County.

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As SWF 4th in the draft document, you've received titled Hanover County Virginia

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draft comprehensive plan, 2017-2037, dated November 16th, 2017, with the additional

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text referencing the Richmond Regional Transportation Planning and Organization. Staff will be happy to address any comments we've reviewed at this point.

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Thank you, sir.

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We're going to have citizens time. If it's okay with the commissioners, I think maybe we'll do that first and then have comments.

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questions input from the commissioners, is that okay with everyone? How many people are here

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tonight who would like to address the commission on the plan?

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All of you want to speak

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individually? Clear?

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Pardon me?

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Was it three or four over here? Would generally allow 20

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minutes, citizen's time. Each of you three will get five minutes and if you would maybe select

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two people, I'm sure everyone's got the same opinion. Maybe select two people, we'll let them

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go first. If that's okay, you can sort of discuss amongst yourselves who you want to speak,

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and I'll let two of them speak for five minutes each also. So I'll be able to tell you 25 minutes

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instead of 20. I assume we've got a total of five speakers. Is that okay? The form

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that's a little different because we really don't have an applicant where someone is

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going to speak in favor of a particular case and reserve time for a bottle. So everyone would

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just be allowed five minutes to make their comments on the comprehensive plan, which

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of a topic it is you want to discuss. So the three gentlemen over here, Mr. Nelson,

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And you want to go first,

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and if you would, as you come up, state your name in the district

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that you're in.

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Good evening, Chairman Verley, and members of the Planning Commission.

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My name is Bob Nelson, and I reside in the Czechahomany Magistral District.

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I have comments in five areas, and I will try to be brief.

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One, county needs to fund road and water sewer improvements.

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At your October 3rd, WorkSession, Messers flag, and Herzog discuss the challenges in funding hundreds of millions of dollars in hand over road and water sewer projects.

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Schools only add to that challenge.

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Two, careful and comprehensive studies are required under state law before hand over commits to a bicycle and pedestrian plan.

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For 35 years, Hanover has not planned for bike and pedestrian infrastructure.

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Funding, costs, benefits, feasibility, and community impacts have not been adequately studied.

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3.

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Hanover citizens should have complete information on every element related to growth management.

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That includes the location of undeveloped lands, and approved developments, and housing units, as of June 30, 2017.

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Transparency must be a core planning commission, a comprehensive plan objective.

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4. Population estimates should include new apartments and senior living units. The town

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of Ashland should not be ignored in the land consumption analysis. Again, careful and comprehensive

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studies are required by state law. In complete one should not be accepted. 5. All land

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which cannot be developed should be excluded in density calculations.

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Counting some wetland acreage 50% and other wetland and transmission line acreage 100% in computing

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density is a strange practice with bad incentives.

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Even developers have recognized it makes no sense.

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Chesapeake Bay Protection requires exclusion of retlins in computing density in a 21st-century

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compound.

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On election day, 2015, a planning commissioner told me citizens didn't participate in

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compound reviews.

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On that same date, ground was broken at the Charleston Ridge Apartments and staff was informed

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that Taylor Farm would be filed.

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One day, three messages to get involved, you'll receive detailed presentations and recommendations

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on major planning problems in Hanover County.

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I respectfully request today that you positively respond to them.

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Thank you.

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Thank you,

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sir.

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The next, you know sir, it's your name and district, and before you, Mr. Nelson is spoken

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before he's a little familiar with our time limits, it's five minutes, Mr. Hager keeps

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time, he'll let you know when you have 30 seconds left of the five minutes of us occur.

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Thank you very much. My name is Hank Kiper. I have two homes. My current residence

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is in the McCanksville district. The new house that I'm constructing is in the cold harbor

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district, and that's the one I'd like to discuss right now. This is my first time visiting

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the Planning Commission. I didn't even know it applied to my situation until I got a note

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from the Parks Direct Department just the other day asking me to participate in what amenities

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we want in the new park that it led to my property, which I haven't even moved into yet.

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I have a 22 year old autistic son, severely disabled.

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We're moving out of our neighborhood in Pebble Creek.

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We're moving out of it though to a rural setting.

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We spent three years identifying property.

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We reviewed the comprehensive plan last year before we closed on the property.

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So I was completely surprised by the plan for a park, especially since there's three

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battlefield parks less than a half mile away.

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So, my comments are to section four and section five, the active and healthy living, which I think is what's driving this park.

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The active and healthy living is a wonderful thing, but what costs in the rural parts of coal fiber district.

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It's a very rural part of the county, and it also is the crossroads of two major bells, which we all know.

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It's a huge tourism, and it's a cultural resource.

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In this particular park, it sits right at the corner

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of both major battlefields.

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And then Section 5 is where these proposed park is

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in the plan, which butts to my property

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that I'm going to hopefully finish in a month or so.

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And the hiking trails on the proposed drawings come

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within 30 feet of my new house that I'm building.

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And basically, it was had no idea it was there.

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So my question is, is there a burning need for this type of facility in the Cold Harbor District?

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Is there a giant problem that the county needs to fill?

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Second of all is, every drop of stormwater created on this property is going to come on to my property into my wetlands and into two large culverts that I maintain.

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So there's both a cultural resource issue and then there's also a very large stormwater issue.

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Your plan for this will have to include very large BMPs that deal with the storm water issue and all that

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Like I said 100% of that new storm water comes on to my new property

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So I really would give consideration wish you would give consideration about

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Both sections four and section five and if this this park solves a burning problem and if there's not a better place

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I would like to say that we can allocate funds for it. Thank you very much.

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Thank you, sir.

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Okay. The next speaker that was yesterday.

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Good afternoon, commission. Chairman Bailey. My name is Mr. May. I'm from the Home Building Association of Richmond.

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And I just have three quick points I'd like to bring up about this year's comprehensive plan update.

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First one is the H bar supports the current designation of the suburban service area.

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we think it's a really good idea, it's a really good way to organize growth while maintaining

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the rural character of Hanover, which I know is so important to so many of its citizens.

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The second point is that H bar supports higher density development within the suburban

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service area. By allowing a greater range of potential density, it grants the planning

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department, the planning commission yourselves, and ultimately the board of supervisors

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there's more flexibility in their decision-making process

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for individual development applications.

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As chapter two of the comprehensive plant states,

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the goal of the SSA is to have compact and continuous

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development that maximizes the efficient use

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of public facilities that provides a variety of housing

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options that meet the demand of developing workforce

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and satisfies population demand trends,

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which the comprehensive plant does an excellent job

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of pointing out.

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H bar believes that by limiting the suburban general land use zoning designation to 3.5 dwelling units per acre

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It will inevitably use up the finite resource of real estate faster than if it remained at its current destination of 4 dwelling units per acre

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And as you take a look at market trends, an older generation is moving out of houses and they're looking for smaller houses that are easier to maintain on smaller acres

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So more density, and if you're looking at the younger generation of millennials that are going

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into the market for the first time, your first time home buyers, they too are looking

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for smaller, more dense urban feeling developments.

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Now, that's not to say that your traditional developments don't still have a place.

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In fact, I think that that will still likely be a driving force, however, by keeping it at

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forward units per acre, it gives you all the flexibility to make the game time decisions that

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you need to per every application, or yeah, per every development application. Finally, AESPRO

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supports keeping the mixed use land use ratios at their current level, decreasing the amount of

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residential development and the total projects to 50% and raising commercial to 50% will likely

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make this designation unusable by the development community. And I know I've heard concern

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about the mixed use and I empathize and I understand those. I just don't know if that if this

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is the best mechanism to handle some of those concerns. So I'm happy to answer any questions

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if you ever need to reach out. I know Director Maloney and Mr. Garmin both have my contact and

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I'm happy to help. Thank you so much.

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It was

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all from the side of the group here, and we got to two speakers within a third place.

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Good evening Chairman Belly. My name is Gary Willen. I reside in the Chica Harmony District.

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I'm speaking to support section for the active and healthy living section.

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I was fortunate enough to be the chairman of the Citizens Advisory Committee for

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and cyclability that was set up by the Board of Supervisors to inform this activity.

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So I was lucky enough to work with a number of other hand over residents, business representatives,

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building representatives who put in a lot of work and effort to fully research and develop a lot of what went into the section.

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We appreciate that Hanover is competing for funds, and there are a lot of competing issues

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across Hanover District, Hanover County for the funds.

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We understand that.

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We're not trying to say everywhere it needs a cycle path, everywhere it needs a walking

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path.

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We're very sensitive that everything needs to be in context.

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We're aware that over a thousand Hanover residents responded to our survey, largely the

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The vast majority fully supportive of a more active, connected, safe, Hanover County, where

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communities are joined up, and people can move between them, not necessarily in a car,

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and be safe doing that.

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There's currently...

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Bye-bye.

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Walu un robl y ddof pfddol i jirgu dd 쓰�bum gael tipo, rholr arll llwn, hyn,

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o man E onga'u

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mae ei'n wneud y cyfrdyn, mae动 y mwychod.

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Mae yn ydydd drwyfdydd gydaedd ywyddaedd ywyddaedd, mae eisiauedd, o'i fferfaenid ywyddaedd'n

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fferfaenid ydydd gefferd ywyddaedd iwell yn ywyddaedd.

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A ydyddsin fferd yn ywyddaedd ywyddaedd hwnn mwychodd yfyddaedd ywyddaedd.

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Ydydd ywyddaedd ywyddaedd hwnn yn fferd yn ywyddaedd hynt â'n fferd yn ywyddaedd

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ywyddaedd.

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lifa y siolilia, sydria, bywintigs oedau sic joybldys.

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Ldri rhoi yan geldeno chef, bywintig te i they sing,

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justhi chi'r plazwraud am'r fweu.

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E ca'i gweith y di o'r ôl hyn o gwgau, ydydd ddeu, i o'r d fild ydiol, mae'n ddeolau chi'n ddeolau, e'r ydyl'i

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Rydyl amendment yw dmitrydd atrad.

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Mae'n pw endorsed aweithuntheyw theych rydynt ysaר yw betjw i oinder yw

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hynflwre chael ydvi Forgetriaath ac rydym ddynd yw ysayrw

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mae lleu swn?

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Ydy endwrgu wedi

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hwn y

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Gud nomu yna'd sut.

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Mae ywlegiwfraig yn siun o di Diyrlu 지�ryw yma din ei sydd mesures

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yr caud mor szuperdaes i' am siun seud â ni никто chi cil ei yn,

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findinggae formodag o deotun Iwrefa gwneud.

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Gud y people o was anghti griad critid,

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mae'n 다�book o weif sicrhau zilffu o又 yn yen,

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o no eithel o nynnfraig ddlwod.

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yn miodol grau o gan ullyd rwfnyn gallu i y cyfan goo Sagewalen.

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Siwn o валd fi dddddddiglwyn o bydd defender o'n sydd brwl i draitha

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i dddddddyl chi yно hna'n hwreud yn 5dw y doedog gwyfenre.

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Tot o pow'w nel bydd i pffd drwingofoen gan argoddo,

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michael o nh talentedf Como at mae'n hy Wolver yn'n viaud y cyn...

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what's going to happen in hilys.

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I'm concerned because all of us in the county are going to be on the hook

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for whatever utilities, whatever other support services

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will be required for that denser development

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in that suburban service area.

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I went to the very first meeting at Elmont

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and the subgroup that I ended up in had two gentleman in it

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and they immediately pulled out plans

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for this expansion of a suburban service area

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Rahesdio, oedd ydych'n eddw'n cynnddwyn i'ny ddeaf unf υgodfnychd yn yddwyn,

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fy oedd yn hynn ddeaf unfifyd i'r fasoddu yn ddeaf unfifyd i'n myr gweith,

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boedd mae g� y ddydym oedd gyresdyn,

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oedd gwrl, eich rof ddim ddeaf unfifyd i'r yddwyn.

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Whether they're in Henrico, we want to build a commercial note to those folks, you know, can walk over and get a cup of coffee or buy a newspaper.

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And I thought maybe that area has changed a lot since I last went through there. So I've driven through there a few times over the last months.

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And that doesn't seem to me to make sense. And my concern is if there's no plan, am I understanding there isn't any plan to expand utilities beyond 33,

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for five years or way beyond, that to make this extension and that make this addition to the

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suburban service area now is premature, that we know we'll do another update in five years,

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it seems to me that would be the time, let's consider it then, if in fact, there's no way

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we're going to run utilities to it in that time frame, because I am concerned about any expansion

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of the suburban service area, and particularly about the pressure that that will create in that

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area for that Henrico short pump, Western style development to be pushed over in the hand

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over.

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And I think we need more time and a longer discussion for that.

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So I would ask that that not be included in this update.

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So thank you.

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Thank you.

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I don't owe my speakers for the night.

329
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Yes, sir.

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Yes, ma'am.

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I'll let her go first.

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I'm Mary Lynn White from the Chick-Homony District

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who lived in Hanover almost 25 years.

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I just want to make sure that the record will show

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there are over 25, 20 people here in support

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of chapter four, the healthy and active living chapter.

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And we're saving everybody's time by not repeating

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ourselves, but I was afraid maybe it wouldn't be recorded.

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So is that work?

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Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time

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and your service to the county.

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I am both a fiscal conservative and a bike rider who rides more than 1,000 miles a year

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on the back roads of Hanover County.

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I know the roads very well.

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I may have a slightly different perspective on a walk and bike plan in Chapter 4.

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I lived in Dayton, Ohio, for 13 years.

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It has hundreds of miles of walk and bike trails that were converted from old and unused

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railroad lines as part of the rails to trail movement.

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I have observed that walking by trails have more

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of the recreational benefits for a local community.

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They also have economic benefits.

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They attract people from outside the local area who

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spend money on local businesses when they come to ride the trails.

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I even saw an ice cream shop that probably made any enormous amount

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of money is probably the richest ice cream shop I've ever seen.

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If anyone has any doubt about this in Hanover County,

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consider the number of bike riders and handover who stop at Ashley and County and T or

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I'm sorry coffee and T. Also consider the growing number of neighborhood developments that now include

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walking bike trails such as Rutland. Home builders believe that trails add value and benefits to their

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neighborhoods which adds value to home prices. I don't like to waste tax dollars anymore than the next

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person. But I believe that based on real-world experience that walking and bike and trails have a

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turn on investments in the community that goes beyond health and recreational benefits.

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They also have important economic benefits.

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Thank you for listening.

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Okay, I'm there going to close citizens' time.

366
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Before we get into the commissioners, Mr. Maloney, do you prepare to address the points

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that were brought up by the citizens?

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Mr. Chairman, at this point, I think I would prefer to address any questions that

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commission may have regarding questions you all have, and issues that the citizens have raised

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this evening.

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Then we'll open up for the commissioners.

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And the commission won't be recognized, and they come as I have questions to the led

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button.

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I'd like to first of all thank everybody for coming out and participating.

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I know Mr. Nelson has been here and been very involved in the process and Mr. and Mrs. Wayne

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Field and a lot of others have been forwarded throughout the whole process and we really

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appreciate you and put it and appreciate all the work you all have done and the basis you

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have given us for information on the biking and trails and walking paths and that type of thing.

379
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And I just want to appreciate and thank you all for doing that.

380
00:34:58,720 --> 00:34:59,960
I like the first thing I've got.

381
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:08,680
The elected dress is probably Mrs. Wingfield's comments and reference to the council track and the area there at Hollis.

382
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We had looked at that and talked to a lot of the residents in that area.

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And we all feel nothing is going to happen in that area, probably for anywhere from attend to 20 a period, because there's absolutely no infrastructure there.

384
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And it's on the other side of 33 at this point, which is about eight miles away.

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So with some kind of extensive development going on in between that area, it's going to have

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to push the infrastructure to get to that point.

387
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:44,920
And there's no projects that are right now that have come forward for that.

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00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:51,560
The reason we were looking at making it commercial is because we didn't want it, we did not

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wanted to turn into high density housing, and that was supported by the community that lived

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00:35:56,620 --> 00:36:03,480
in the lives in that area. The reason that we wanted to do something now is because it will

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help include the infrastructure and the size and the future projects come along in case they

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do come along within the next five years. So that is the reason behind why it was included in this

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process and I'll make a recommendation that we leave it in the plan.

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And the other comments, questions from commissions at this point.

395
00:36:34,510 --> 00:36:34,750
I'm sorry.

396
00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:41,290
I wanted to ask Mr. Maloney and if we could on that the section that we talked about in

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the transportation that we received the response from V dot and it was triggered as a result

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of the citizen concerns.

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And looking at the verbiage it appears to me that that's that's pretty much satisfies what we're looking for

400
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:59,670
What was referenced in that concern by the citizen.

401
00:36:59,990 --> 00:37:03,110
Based on the guidance, we received from Vita.

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We do believe that including a reference to the Richmond Regional TPO

403
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:20,630
The year 2018 transportation plan does fulfill the purpose and intent of the code.

404
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:26,010
And bear in mind what the code states is our call and I don't have the section in front

405
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of me at the moment is localities are to include cost estimates for road infrastructure

406
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:34,150
as provided by V dot.

407
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:42,650
In our communication with V dot, their comment essentially was, we can prepare cost estimates,

408
00:37:43,390 --> 00:37:50,330
time permitting for what we have advised other localities is they look at their local and

409
00:37:50,330 --> 00:37:54,150
regional transportation funding plans and include references.

410
00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:57,150
The Hanover County Major Thurfare Plan

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00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:06,200
is intended to address what I will call the theoretical

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build out of Hanover County. And that would be where all the

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00:38:11,140 --> 00:38:15,680
developable land within the county is developed in accordance with

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the comprehensive plan and that includes development within the

415
00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:23,120
rural areas of the county as well as the suburban service area.

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And the reality is there's no time frame for the build out of

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Hanover County. Our policies over years and decades will inevitably

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change. And so there's really no, no feasible way and no real purpose to come up with sort

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of a theoretical cost estimate of what it would take to build out the major thoroughfare

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00:38:55,970 --> 00:39:04,430
plan if build in accordance with our anticipated standards. So what this document references

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are those projects that are currently in the funding and construction cycle, and it not only

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00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:20,130
includes projects in Hanover County, but throughout the Richmond Regional TPO area, which

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includes all nine jurisdictions within the Richmond region. And what we've, what citizens

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00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:34,410
can specifically look at are the list of Hanover County projects that are funded. The document

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00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:40,530
And it self-contains projects that actually have been completed and completed for a number

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00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:41,170
of years.

427
00:39:41,810 --> 00:39:48,310
But if we look at just the projects that are currently in the funding process and or construction

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00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:51,690
cycle, that amount is about 75 million dollars.

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00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:58,650
And so we do think, again, based on guidance from Vita and consultation with our attorney

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00:39:58,650 --> 00:39:59,970
that the addition.

431
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:07,320
The land which has proposed fulfills the purpose in a ton of state code as it relates to the transportation plan.

432
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Anything else? I have one comment on one, I'm not sure which section is in the blue.

433
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I believe it was the third speaker who was talking about the density and the change that we've run the risk of using up available land.

434
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And I'm looking at a chart that was in the right path.

435
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And Mr. Malone, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

436
00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:38,490
It appears that we have right now over 10,000 acres

437
00:40:38,490 --> 00:40:40,030
of land that's available.

438
00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:46,850
That's land that has been zoned, or that's what is available to be zoned.

439
00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:50,270
That's land that's available to be developed.

440
00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:54,430
And I'm looking at Mr. Garmin a moment.

441
00:40:54,430 --> 00:41:02,490
But my recollection, that includes both land that's been zoned, but undeveloped as well as

442
00:41:02,490 --> 00:41:06,590
unzoned land that's positioned to be developed for resident purposes.

443
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:14,730
So if I'm looking at this chart, depending on the density, whether it's 1, 2, 3, 4,

444
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:21,230
we would have a minimum worst-case scenario of 18 years of available land right now.

445
00:41:21,230 --> 00:41:25,270
That's what in best case scenario is we could have as much as 76 years.

446
00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:28,410
Potentially based on our planning metrics. That's correct.

447
00:41:28,750 --> 00:41:33,630
So the likelihood of using that up in a time soon is pretty remote.

448
00:41:33,830 --> 00:41:36,610
I would say it's very likely remote.

449
00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:40,330
And again, based on historic growth patterns,

450
00:41:42,850 --> 00:41:48,930
we believe we have decades worth of available land for development.

451
00:41:48,930 --> 00:41:54,450
And as a practical matter, the average density within the sperm and service area, we have

452
00:41:54,450 --> 00:41:57,010
planned a three units per acre average density.

453
00:41:57,470 --> 00:42:02,570
We now, because of the various land use designations, they're going to be projects that are

454
00:42:02,570 --> 00:42:07,610
higher than three units per acre and also projects lower than three units per acre.

455
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:13,950
But we're confident that for decades to come, we will have sufficient capacity within the

456
00:42:13,950 --> 00:42:15,010
sperm and service area.

457
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:16,190
Okay.

458
00:42:17,350 --> 00:42:18,550
There we go.

459
00:42:19,210 --> 00:42:21,210
Just for some clarity, Mr. Maloney.

460
00:42:22,090 --> 00:42:23,910
The 10,000 acres you're talking about is,

461
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:25,490
it's a suburban service area only.

462
00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:26,490
Not the entire car.

463
00:42:26,490 --> 00:42:27,250
That is correct.

464
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:28,590
Okay, thank you.

465
00:42:31,370 --> 00:42:32,770
Any other comments from anyone?

466
00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:35,250
Mr. McGee.

467
00:42:35,690 --> 00:42:38,170
I'd like to, once again, lean on Mr. Maloney.

468
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:40,370
If you could, could you please,

469
00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:42,950
for Mr. Kipers, benefit and others,

470
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:45,550
maybe articulate briefly why,

471
00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:51,650
the reasoning for the positioning of the park and coal harbor and the potential stormwater run off

472
00:42:51,650 --> 00:42:53,370
concerns. Certainly.

473
00:42:55,770 --> 00:43:01,610
Certainly the facilities that are planned with that park will support

474
00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:10,090
chapter 4. But I think it's important to note that chapter 4 obviously it's in draft form now.

475
00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:15,070
The planning for this park, the negotiation with the property owner for the acquisition and the land,

476
00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:18,050
He's taking place over many years.

477
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:25,390
However, County does have a Parks and Recreation Master Plan, and that plan is reflected

478
00:43:25,390 --> 00:43:29,090
in the Park Facilities Plan of the Comprehensive Plan.

479
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:38,790
There's been a planned East End Regional Park in both the Department's Master Plan as

480
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:40,510
well as the Comprehensive Plan.

481
00:43:40,510 --> 00:43:45,190
The county was able to identify property that appeared to be suitable for the development

482
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:51,390
of the park. A number of years ago, that property has been acquired by Hanover County

483
00:43:51,390 --> 00:43:56,130
and the Parks and Recreation Department are in the early phases of development.

484
00:43:57,230 --> 00:44:10,490
Having said that prior to the park actually being constructed, has to go through a

485
00:44:10,490 --> 00:44:17,910
from the Planck Commission Board Supervisors, a detailed master plan of that project has to be approved by the Board.

486
00:44:18,090 --> 00:44:27,530
The citizens have an opportunity to weigh in on that and guide how that park is to be developed.

487
00:44:28,570 --> 00:44:40,070
So, although we are in the process of planning for that park, there are still a number of steps that have to be taken for its actual construction development.

488
00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:50,830
With regard to stormwater management, any project in Hanover County has to apply with the county's stormwater mitigation requirements.

489
00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:59,970
We have to control both the quality of water, leaving a site, post development as well as the...

490
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:09,620
Quantity of water leaving the site. One of the advantages of a park is that relative to the entire area

491
00:45:09,620 --> 00:45:15,580
of the project, there is relatively little impervious area. Now, there may be a change in land cover,

492
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:21,600
which necessitates a modification as to the calculations regarding the amount of runoff.

493
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,940
But, for the most part, a vast majority of the land cover will still be pervious surface

494
00:45:27,940 --> 00:45:29,820
rather than impervious surface.

495
00:45:30,540 --> 00:45:37,460
So I'm confident that the engineers designing the park will not only design a stormwater

496
00:45:37,460 --> 00:45:44,920
management system that meets the water quality issues, but addresses downstream water quantity

497
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:45,940
issues as well.

498
00:45:45,940 --> 00:45:46,360
And

499
00:45:50,330 --> 00:45:59,010
what you're saying, the park will go through all of its, through us, the board, and everything before it's actually approved.

500
00:45:59,270 --> 00:46:00,210
That is correct.

501
00:46:01,290 --> 00:46:01,930
Thank you.

502
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:09,030
I have, um, anyone else having a comment on the park section?

503
00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:13,510
I have a couple of comments on the section four, okay?

504
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:24,170
In looking at this, what comes to mind, and Mr. Nelson mentioned this too, is how you go

505
00:46:24,170 --> 00:46:25,110
about funding this.

506
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,200
I mean, the end of the district, and everybody wants to pull green road widen, you know?

507
00:46:32,060 --> 00:46:34,420
So, where do we get the money to do that?

508
00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:35,800
That's number one.

509
00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:39,640
In this section,

510
00:46:42,050 --> 00:46:47,170
I'm not sure, I like how we are proposing to go about deciding which

511
00:46:47,170 --> 00:46:52,910
developments will comply with this, and I'm referring me to the complete streets, this

512
00:46:52,910 --> 00:46:53,970
mentioned in section four.

513
00:46:55,150 --> 00:46:59,670
How do we determine which developments will have to comply with that?

514
00:47:00,430 --> 00:47:05,130
And don't we already address some of this if you go to the transportation section?

515
00:47:05,850 --> 00:47:10,110
on the transportation where it has goals, the goal of the section.

516
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:12,290
I'm just going to read two sentences.

517
00:47:12,610 --> 00:47:16,430
A transportation system that supports and enhances the quality of life,

518
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:21,930
for hand of a candidate citizens and businesses characterized by the following.

519
00:47:23,310 --> 00:47:31,110
Convenient and accessible, multimedia, mobile networks that allow the movement of people and goods efficiently.

520
00:47:31,110 --> 00:47:33,690
We already addressing that in transportation.

521
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:39,870
We are indirectly addressing it in transportation.

522
00:47:41,370 --> 00:47:43,690
Let me start with your last statement.

523
00:47:44,370 --> 00:47:47,170
Worked towards the beginning of your question if I may, Mr. Chairman.

524
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:54,070
In terms of multimodal and transportation planning,

525
00:47:54,070 --> 00:48:10,590
That typically refers to multiple modes of transportation to facilitate the movement of people in goods, but it's primarily focused on motorized transportation.

526
00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:20,410
So an example would be if we were, let's just say for the sake of discussion, if we were more urbanized locality.

527
00:48:21,590 --> 00:48:33,890
Does our transportation network have facilities that will support conventional motor vehicles both passenger and commercial motor vehicles?

528
00:48:34,830 --> 00:48:46,690
Will it have facilities and will it be designed to accommodate public transportation, whether it be some sort of a light rail system or bus or what have you?

529
00:48:46,690 --> 00:49:15,430
Will those facilities be connected to ports and airports to allow the efficient movement of people and goods from, say, manufacturing across the road, across the roadways to a rail facility or a port facility or an airport facility so that the mode of transportation or shipping changes based on the need of the shipper.

530
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:24,930
And so it really refers to more of a, if you will, a mechanized or motorized, interconnected

531
00:49:24,930 --> 00:49:26,570
transportation system.

532
00:49:27,390 --> 00:49:37,470
If we talk about complete streets, we're really focused on a holistic scalable approach

533
00:49:37,470 --> 00:49:43,330
to how we design and build public rights of way.

534
00:49:43,330 --> 00:49:53,470
So, rather than designing a neighborhood road, exclusively for the use of motor vehicles within that neighborhood,

535
00:49:54,370 --> 00:49:59,650
is that road designed to also safely accommodate bicyclists.

536
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:07,240
And or pedestrians. And so we're really focused on the design of the right of way itself.

537
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:26,720
And the importance of a complete street concept in the context of Hanover County and our long-term funding is that there are a number of existing policies and requirements, both local and at the state level,

538
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:36,660
that really mandate us to pay close attention as to how we plan roads in the future.

539
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:43,420
So for instance, as part of the Smart Scale Funding Program,

540
00:50:46,410 --> 00:50:48,070
road improvement projects that

541
00:50:48,070 --> 00:50:56,650
are to receive state funding, there is a premise in the funding formulas that those facilities

542
00:50:56,650 --> 00:51:02,310
will contain bicycle and or pedestrian facilities. That's sort of off the top.

543
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:07,910
VDOT says, when you plan an expansion or an improvement to at least a station road or

544
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:12,230
sliding hill road or pole green road, you have to take into consideration to consider and

545
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:18,890
design for pedestrian and bicycle facilities. In an example of where that was put into

546
00:51:20,290 --> 00:51:24,490
implementation was the improvement to the Sliding Hill,

547
00:51:24,670 --> 00:51:29,310
Newshake Road Intersection, where there are very specific

548
00:51:29,310 --> 00:51:32,850
marked bike lanes for that improved section of road.

549
00:51:33,650 --> 00:51:37,270
Now, localities in the state can opt out of designing

550
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:47,130
for those things, provided there's a determination that the

551
00:51:47,130 --> 00:51:54,630
percent of the project cost, the estimated project cost, if that's the case, then the

552
00:51:54,630 --> 00:52:00,970
locality can automatically opt out and say, now we don't believe this project qualifies.

553
00:52:02,110 --> 00:52:07,050
From a local standpoint, well, let me state the state level.

554
00:52:09,090 --> 00:52:14,950
from a neighborhood or subdivision transportation policy,

555
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:20,890
V.Now requires roads be stubbed to its external boundaries.

556
00:52:21,570 --> 00:52:24,090
And where existing connections exist,

557
00:52:24,590 --> 00:52:27,270
connect into those adjacent neighborhoods,

558
00:52:28,110 --> 00:52:31,710
and failure to abide by those requirements,

559
00:52:32,830 --> 00:52:36,230
the developer and locality, in this case, Hanover County,

560
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:40,090
risk the possibility that the road will not be accepted

561
00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:44,150
into the state system for maintenance, which means, in essence,

562
00:52:44,710 --> 00:52:47,010
there's subdivision roads become private roads.

563
00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:51,110
So VDOT already has policies both at the funding level,

564
00:52:51,490 --> 00:52:53,470
and at the neighborhood road design level,

565
00:52:55,730 --> 00:53:00,070
for the facilitation of bicycle and pedestrian facilities,

566
00:53:01,630 --> 00:53:05,330
and their subdivision road standards also have requirements for sidewalks.

567
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:14,550
In Hanover County, our residential zoning districts, which include the RS, RM, and MX zoning districts,

568
00:53:14,850 --> 00:53:20,050
and we're really confined this conversation to the primarily suburban service area, we have

569
00:53:20,050 --> 00:53:27,190
requirements that those neighborhoods include pedestrian pathways or sidewalks along the external

570
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:30,690
a thoroughfare buffer and internal sidewalks.

571
00:53:31,110 --> 00:53:33,830
So at the local level, we also have policies

572
00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:38,650
that require the improvements for pedestrians.

573
00:53:40,030 --> 00:53:42,870
So really, when we talk about complete streets,

574
00:53:43,890 --> 00:53:46,070
what we're really attempting to do

575
00:53:46,070 --> 00:53:48,950
and the staff's recommendation with the staff plan

576
00:53:49,250 --> 00:53:53,310
is to recognize these various policies exist

577
00:53:53,310 --> 00:54:02,030
And to ensure that when we plan roads, when we plan neighborhoods, when we take, when we consider

578
00:54:02,030 --> 00:54:09,650
a zoning case, that we are looking holistically at all of these policies, both at the state and

579
00:54:09,650 --> 00:54:15,590
local level, and ensuring that we have an efficient transportation system within the public

580
00:54:15,590 --> 00:54:21,030
right of way that meets the users of motor vehicles, pedestrians, and cyclists.

581
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:40,390
Those policies are in place, really what's intended is to draw deliberate attention to those policies to ensure that we are building communities that are sustainable and that meet the needs of the residents and fulfill the various state local policies.

582
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:52,230
So, if we are to have a policy on the, within the subdivision for the sidewalks, why do we need this section?

583
00:54:52,670 --> 00:54:59,950
Well, I think it comes up to, I think there are a number of ways that we can...

584
00:55:01,610 --> 00:55:09,770
Peel this onion, so to speak. We can certainly include policies and hands policies in the major

585
00:55:09,770 --> 00:55:19,370
thoroughfare plan. But part of this, the intent of this chapter, goes beyond simply transportation. And

586
00:55:19,370 --> 00:55:28,670
it really addresses the concepts raised by and forgive me if I get your name incorrect. I wrote down Mr.

587
00:55:28,670 --> 00:55:36,370
the latest speaker, that it really goes to the point of creating vibrant neighborhoods, creating

588
00:55:36,370 --> 00:55:44,830
neighborhoods that are desirable for people to move into that are sustainable, that provide

589
00:55:44,830 --> 00:55:48,790
inner connection in the promote a healthy lifestyle.

590
00:55:50,270 --> 00:55:55,730
Study after study suggests that where these facilities are purposely built into communities,

591
00:55:55,730 --> 00:56:02,350
is whether it's a suburban location or locality, such as Hanover County, or the middle

592
00:56:02,350 --> 00:56:07,850
of an urban core, where there are strong bicycle and pedestrian facilities, where they

593
00:56:07,850 --> 00:56:15,150
link to existing businesses and jobs, where they link to planned public spaces.

594
00:56:17,290 --> 00:56:17,750
The values

595
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:25,270
of those communities are substantially higher than comparable values in communities where

596
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:32,470
those types of facilities are lacking. And so, yes, it does address transportation but it

597
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:38,830
also addresses the economic and long range viability of a community and it addresses the

598
00:56:38,830 --> 00:56:46,650
our ability of community, and it also addresses very specifically the public health of the

599
00:56:46,650 --> 00:56:52,330
community. If you look at the public health ratings for Hanover County, we don't fare very

600
00:56:52,330 --> 00:56:59,630
well. And much of the elements that arise on our health assessment such as type 2 diabetes, such

601
00:56:59,630 --> 00:57:07,890
as hypertension, such as cardiovascular disease are directly attributable to lack of exercise

602
00:57:07,890 --> 00:57:14,830
and lack of access to alternative modes of mobility.

603
00:57:16,010 --> 00:57:22,670
And so I can only speak to what we have heard expressed from the residents.

604
00:57:23,970 --> 00:57:27,910
The Bike Walk Committee, last spring, sponsored a survey.

605
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:35,390
I believe 94.96% of the respondents were hand over residents.

606
00:57:37,050 --> 00:57:44,350
Well, over 80% of the respondents supported planning for these very sorts of facilities.

607
00:57:44,790 --> 00:57:52,070
There is currently a petition circulated as Mr. Weilin stated.

608
00:57:53,930 --> 00:57:57,010
After a week, 450 residents have signed that petition.

609
00:57:57,010 --> 00:57:59,330
And there is a demand for these facilities.

610
00:57:59,550 --> 00:58:06,550
I had the opportunity with Mr. Whitaker, Mr. Hedra, to conduct a small focus group with

611
00:58:06,550 --> 00:58:11,690
the assistance of the U.L.I. urban landings to young leaders group.

612
00:58:11,730 --> 00:58:14,810
It was held at CO2 Brewery last summer.

613
00:58:15,530 --> 00:58:25,030
And I'm guessing there were maybe close to 2,000 younger millennials in attendance.

614
00:58:25,030 --> 00:58:26,570
And to the person,

615
00:58:30,030 --> 00:58:34,030
the communities they said they were attracted to were those communities

616
00:58:34,030 --> 00:58:42,510
that were walkable that had access to amenities, shopping, dining, access to local food sources.

617
00:58:43,170 --> 00:58:46,210
They were not attracted to the short pump town centers.

618
00:58:46,350 --> 00:58:52,910
They were not attracted to subdivisions that lacked this sort of infrastructure that we're

619
00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:53,950
discussing tonight.

620
00:58:55,470 --> 00:59:14,310
Smaller street, smaller local businesses, and what this section of the plan is intended to accomplish is again provide guidance to directly steer our planning efforts so that we give a critical eye.

621
00:59:14,650 --> 00:59:20,170
You asked Mr. Chairman, how do we know which communities to apply these standards to?

622
00:59:20,170 --> 00:59:25,470
And the responses, I don't know, until we have applications.

623
00:59:26,130 --> 00:59:30,050
We received an application yesterday for a very large community.

624
00:59:30,490 --> 00:59:35,890
It'll be clearly the largest community that we have planned in Hanover County

625
00:59:35,890 --> 00:59:39,410
if it is successful and goes through the process.

626
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:45,210
I would suggest a neighborhood like the one being proposed is a prime candidate

627
00:59:45,210 --> 00:59:49,150
for a critical view of a complete street policy.

628
00:59:50,570 --> 00:59:55,330
If it's a small 20-lot RS subdivision

629
00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:59,450
the suburban service area to the extent we can connect to

630
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:08,960
Individual neighborhoods, we would certainly endeavor to do that. Do we need an extensive improvements

631
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:16,040
to the public right of way beyond sidewalks and internal subdivision, probably not? So sort

632
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:23,920
of the scale and character of the development being proposed. I think is going to help us guide our decision

633
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:32,880
making if this chapter is in fact included, but I think the important takeaway is that

634
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:39,620
these concepts are scalable. It is not a one-size-fits-all policy. We know that there

635
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:46,220
are fiscal constraints and are transportation planning efforts and there is no effort on

636
01:00:46,220 --> 01:00:53,900
the part of staff to ignore those very real needs, but where we can, where we should

637
01:00:53,900 --> 01:01:03,460
and where we have the ability to plan for a more cohesive, holistic, transportation network.

638
01:01:04,380 --> 01:01:06,980
Frankly, I would say it's our obligation to do that.

639
01:01:07,140 --> 01:01:11,320
And that's what this chapter will help us guide those decisions in the future.

640
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,560
I'm just sitting here thinking, would that not encourage a developer?

641
01:01:19,130 --> 01:01:28,110
perhaps to look at the perimeter of the SSA versus coming in close to say up near King's

642
01:01:28,110 --> 01:01:32,690
charter where maybe they would have to do that, to go outside where they probably would

643
01:01:32,690 --> 01:01:39,170
not have to do that. And what's that going to do if we're going to include Mike walks and

644
01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:42,950
benches, what does that do to the cost of the housing and the development?

645
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:50,590
Well, clearly cost is cost and that's a hard issue.

646
01:01:51,850 --> 01:01:59,710
I don't, I would be hesitant to take a path that looks solely at the least common denominator.

647
01:02:00,990 --> 01:02:07,930
My view is in terms of any improvement, whether it's community development or self-improvement,

648
01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:10,630
you don't raise the bar by lowering the bar.

649
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:21,730
And, again, I believe that by including this chapter, we are raising the bar, which means we are raising the value of development.

650
01:02:21,970 --> 01:02:25,370
We are raising the desirability of development in Hanover County.

651
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,500
Well, I agree with you. I'm not against bike pass or anything like that.

652
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:37,360
It just seems the way it is now, that it's very subjective on who's going to have to comply.

653
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:43,360
Well, here again, I think we will end up taking that on a case by case basis.

654
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:49,060
The lead, but I'd like to make some comments on that as well.

655
01:02:49,860 --> 01:02:51,480
I've made a list of some comments.

656
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,160
I'd like to just go over with a low men chair with everybody.

657
01:02:55,260 --> 01:02:58,860
And I don't want anybody to construe this as I'm negative against healthy living.

658
01:02:59,620 --> 01:03:01,680
I don't have anybody that would be against healthy living.

659
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,780
So I think the objective here is to finally exactly what we have in this document.

660
01:03:06,780 --> 01:03:13,420
But whether we go from here and how do we make it, the objective here is to benefit all parties.

661
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:18,260
We need to benefit the citizens that want to bike paths that want to sidewalks.

662
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,900
We need to benefit the applicants that have to plough for these projects so that they can make it

663
01:03:22,900 --> 01:03:25,440
feasible for them to do so otherwise we don't have a project.

664
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:31,480
We also, one of the main problems we have in this county is transportation and in negative

665
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,920
impacts of transportation every time we build something.

666
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:40,500
So, we have to benefit the transportation side of this.

667
01:03:41,060 --> 01:03:46,600
We cannot have this, have any kind of negative impact on transportation because it will probably

668
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,220
kill most of these projects.

669
01:03:49,620 --> 01:03:55,840
So, with those comments being said, what I see we have here, and I'm just going ask for

670
01:03:55,840 --> 01:04:00,680
for you by assumption whether it's correct or not, I view these objectives and strategies

671
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:06,760
and goals and desires, but I do not see enough detail to actually implement any of this into

672
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:13,060
any kind of policy. Is that a correct assumption from what I'm reading in this?

673
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:19,620
I think that's your reading. I think this staff would say this does provide direction for

674
01:04:19,620 --> 01:04:20,440
implementation.

675
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:27,420
And bear in mind, the conference plan is intended to be a general plan.

676
01:04:28,140 --> 01:04:34,620
I agree. The only problem I have with that assumption is that the other sections I see

677
01:04:34,620 --> 01:04:43,720
in this conference plan have detail. And I think applicants have a good intent on what

678
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:49,620
the detail and what is expected for them to apply for a certain project. I don't see enough

679
01:04:49,620 --> 01:04:57,400
detail in this section of that direction. I don't know if I'm looking at it. I don't

680
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,620
don't know how would know how to build a project.

681
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:08,280
And we just made the statement that it's not going to apply. So the next question I have is, who has the discretion

682
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:15,600
that assumption as to which projects they apply to? Ultimately, it'll be the Board of Supervisors.

683
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,960
Is this considered a policy going into?

684
01:05:25,830 --> 01:05:32,350
The conference plan as a document is a policy, so I would have to say the answer is yes.

685
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,340
inclusive through a whole hell of a county or just in the suburb of the service.

686
01:05:43,020 --> 01:05:53,900
The active living in terms of the pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure is really confined to the suburban service area.

687
01:05:54,040 --> 01:06:05,320
We understand issues associated with connectivity in the rural areas of the county, lack of density, lack of other amenities to utilize these facilities.

688
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:14,520
So now I wouldn't envision these policies to be implemented county-wide.

689
01:06:16,570 --> 01:06:21,290
The question is, how does the town of Ashland play into this scenario?

690
01:06:22,330 --> 01:06:31,230
Well, we certainly tried to coordinate our planning efforts on the borders of the county and the town.

691
01:06:32,290 --> 01:06:38,030
And here again, I think we'd have to discuss specifics on somewhat of a case by case basis,

692
01:06:39,930 --> 01:06:48,410
but the town has gone on record, supporting the settlement of the comprehensive plan.

693
01:06:50,850 --> 01:06:58,150
So I think we would have some very interesting opportunities to better coordinate transportation

694
01:06:58,150 --> 01:07:02,510
of slowies with the town, if the section were included in the plan.

695
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:13,660
I have some very deep concerns with the implement policy based on the vagueness of what I think it needs a lot more work to.

696
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,460
And staff would be happy to make any adjustments.

697
01:07:21,420 --> 01:07:31,540
Are there any specific, and I don't mean exact language, but are there any specific areas concerned that staff can go back and evaluate?

698
01:07:31,540 --> 01:07:38,060
I hope think we're going to evaluate by the time we have to vote on this and move this

699
01:07:38,060 --> 01:07:39,660
complaint forward.

700
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:47,740
I think this is a very complex issue and I think it's it changes from project to project

701
01:07:47,740 --> 01:07:48,900
just like we've mentioned.

702
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:54,680
I think it's going to take a lot of thought process and a lot of detail and a lot of people

703
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:56,520
involved in it in order to get it right.

704
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:04,620
I brought a article, you know, if Mr. Garmin would put that up on the screen and it's basically

705
01:08:05,420 --> 01:08:14,300
Mrs. Blandon and Mrs. Wingfield and their group invited me to a meeting in the head of

706
01:08:14,300 --> 01:08:21,020
Speaker there that is actually has a background in planning and also his engineer. He's got

707
01:08:21,020 --> 01:08:27,200
a company called Strong Towns and he goes across the United States speaking and looks at issues

708
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:33,680
that problems that towns have in this type of thing with the way infrastructure is done,

709
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:40,860
the way things are financed and very good. It was a very out and an experience. I really

710
01:08:40,860 --> 01:08:45,860
appreciate you all for inviting me to that as well. But I'd like to just pull this up just to go

711
01:08:45,860 --> 01:08:49,780
a couple of points, if you could get to the first map, let me

712
01:08:53,430 --> 01:08:53,970
keep going.

713
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:03,240
This map right here is based on a complete street, and I believe it's in Ohio somewhere.

714
01:09:05,630 --> 01:09:09,530
Based on what you see right here, there's some comments made, there's a Megat McDonald's

715
01:09:09,530 --> 01:09:17,510
in a Taco Bell, and they're basically adjacent to each other, and the right of this made

716
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:18,310
a very good point.

717
01:09:18,310 --> 01:09:23,530
If you go into McDonald's and you decide on the way, within five or feet, you'd rather go

718
01:09:23,530 --> 01:09:26,090
to Taco Bell, you can't get there.

719
01:09:27,070 --> 01:09:30,590
You're caught in a maze of roundabouts, turn around.

720
01:09:31,190 --> 01:09:36,310
This was designed for a complete street and it was designed with the help of the National

721
01:09:36,310 --> 01:09:38,430
Complete Street Coalition.

722
01:09:39,710 --> 01:09:44,850
And I think this is a very excessive example what could happen.

723
01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:47,990
I don't think this would happen here because I think there's too many people that know

724
01:09:47,990 --> 01:09:55,010
going on involved in it. But I think another aspect that that bothers me, if federal input

725
01:09:55,010 --> 01:09:59,970
gets into it, this is what encourages this type of thing, because you have people involved in it.

726
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:29,980
All right, they do not live here that make decisions that you have to live with. So I wanted to bring this map in. And this is a real picture. This is not something that was drawn up. This is an actual project that was built and you can see that it is a very expensive multi-million dollar project. If you scroll down, lean, go to, you can go ahead and go to the next scene. This is going down a similar situation of smudge rate. And you can see how confused and it is by just saying,

727
01:10:29,980 --> 01:10:38,400
looking at the street, as to where you go and the small mediums and all the traffic sands and

728
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,460
so forth. We're all down to the last page.

729
01:10:44,950 --> 01:10:47,090
Here you have a, I'll go back to this. Here you

730
01:10:47,090 --> 01:10:52,170
have a bike path that just stops because they don't have easements and so forth to give to other

731
01:10:52,170 --> 01:10:57,090
places at this point. And I know that may be in the future. I'm not saying this, not in the future.

732
01:10:57,090 --> 01:11:03,890
But go to the last, back, back up, back up,

733
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:08,090
they have to throw it here.

734
01:11:08,290 --> 01:11:13,670
And I think this is very, very important, it says, there's another lesson, we're not going

735
01:11:13,670 --> 01:11:17,870
to create places that have account of found grain, attention to detail, necessary to make

736
01:11:17,870 --> 01:11:22,750
them productive through centralized program, mandating, walkable, bikeable design.

737
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:28,170
We might do a small bit of good in some areas, but until we bust up the shallow delivery system,

738
01:11:28,170 --> 01:11:33,810
But this kind of thing will dominate, even if it's not obvious, building successful places

739
01:11:33,810 --> 01:11:39,330
as a complex undertaking, there is no cookbook or manual that can accomplish it.

740
01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:43,650
And therefore, whether we like it or not, it's going to have to be done primarily at the

741
01:11:43,650 --> 01:11:45,370
block neighborhood community level.

742
01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:49,850
And I agree with that statement, I know it's not politically correct, but I don't know

743
01:11:49,850 --> 01:11:50,630
that it needs to be.

744
01:11:50,750 --> 01:11:54,270
I think it gets the point across that we need to do this only local level.

745
01:11:54,270 --> 01:12:00,430
And I think we need to come up with those solutions prior to trying to implement policy

746
01:12:00,430 --> 01:12:02,050
to live it forward.

747
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:08,110
Mr. Chairman, if I may.

748
01:12:08,350 --> 01:12:08,770
Yes, sir.

749
01:12:08,950 --> 01:12:11,890
I think that's exactly what we're doing by including this.

750
01:12:12,450 --> 01:12:15,090
This hasn't been mandated to us by the federal government.

751
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:18,030
It hasn't been mandated to the state government.

752
01:12:18,090 --> 01:12:23,910
This has been developed at the grassroots level with the involvement of an active citizen

753
01:12:23,910 --> 01:12:30,010
committee, it's reached out to other citizens and has gained widespread community support.

754
01:12:30,510 --> 01:12:32,830
This is Hanover County's comprehensive plan.

755
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:34,290
It's not a federal plan.

756
01:12:34,450 --> 01:12:35,330
It's not a state plan.

757
01:12:35,330 --> 01:12:40,710
It's a plan that was devised here in Hanover County by Hanover County staff with the

758
01:12:40,710 --> 01:12:45,190
input of the residents and with input from the Planning Commission.

759
01:12:45,770 --> 01:12:51,770
And so I agree with this statement, and one size fits all, but if we're going to plan

760
01:12:51,770 --> 01:12:55,530
for these things at the local level, I think we've done that.

761
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:05,260
I'd like to hear more input from some of the people that will be applying for these type

762
01:13:05,260 --> 01:13:12,000
projects to get that in the south of it, because I just see a lot of, I'm not sure how they

763
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:24,860
would desire something and give it to us as part of a project that would include things that they

764
01:13:24,860 --> 01:13:28,580
I don't have any definition here exactly what they need to do.

765
01:13:35,890 --> 01:13:38,930
But I also have any questions or comments.

766
01:13:46,900 --> 01:13:49,900
I'm sort of with Mr. Ledbert.

767
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:56,400
I'm all for the active health and lifestyle of the bike,

768
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,120
pay us and walk in trials.

769
01:13:59,620 --> 01:14:05,020
I'm just concerned on how we go about implementing this particular section.

770
01:14:05,020 --> 01:14:12,170
And if we don't have a more definitive guideline on how it's going to be implemented.

771
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:18,800
I mean, I was sitting at thinking about this for the entire county and didn't realize

772
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,120
that you said, you know, that it was just in the SSA, but we don't say that in this

773
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:23,040
section.

774
01:14:23,540 --> 01:14:24,760
Unless I overlooked it.

775
01:14:30,130 --> 01:14:38,210
I think staff would ask for guidance from the Planning Commission what greater specificity

776
01:14:38,210 --> 01:14:40,050
you would like in the plan.

777
01:14:43,420 --> 01:14:44,600
Well, I mean, I'm sorry.

778
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:45,560
Go ahead, Mr. David.

779
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:47,840
Well, there are a couple of areas that I always

780
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:56,660
concerned about, and there's a lot of things I agree with Mr. Ledbear and some of the specific

781
01:14:56,660 --> 01:14:59,960
things. I don't want to throw the bat baby out with the bath water, but it's the same time.

782
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:09,600
Some of the verbiage that I read throughout it, and a question got asked, is this policy? Well, that's specifically what's referenced

783
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:26,980
in throughout this document throughout the draft. The, and it's being recommended that the planning commission in the Warsaw Supervisors implement these policies has dictated by this organization, although not specifically mentioned.

784
01:15:26,980 --> 01:15:31,060
And I can't think of, I don't recall the name of the organization, but this standards,

785
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:37,480
if you go online, you see many of the phrases in the terms, incorporate into this,

786
01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:42,840
the draft that is also outlined in their website.

787
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:46,640
Also retrofitting.

788
01:15:46,700 --> 01:15:48,120
That's referenced on page 4.

789
01:15:48,700 --> 01:15:55,420
I would strongly suggest any reference to retrofitting be shied away from.

790
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:03,380
You know, that we can't get roads done and improvements done to roads as it is.

791
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:10,880
To start retrofitting, and I'm still not 100% sure whether the funding aspect got answered.

792
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:20,650
I've heard two suggestions, as we've talked about this, one being with Vietot that there's

793
01:16:20,650 --> 01:16:26,290
there, and there are certain things there that would help fund some of these projects.

794
01:16:26,410 --> 01:16:32,610
And then I've also heard, well, some of it would come from the developers, well, as I

795
01:16:32,610 --> 01:16:35,910
thought about that, you know, that's going to cause the,

796
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:39,860
they're not going to do it for free.

797
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:44,760
And the bottom line is those funds are going to be attached somewhere, and that's going

798
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:51,860
attach to the price of homes. I speculate. That's my own opinion. It's speculation. Well,

799
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:56,240
during this entire process, in all our community meetings, we've heard over and over again,

800
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,580
we need to really be considering the availability of less expensive housing in the county.

801
01:17:00,780 --> 01:17:03,300
Well, that's just up in the prices of homes.

802
01:17:07,020 --> 01:17:14,740
I, again, I don't want to throw the baby out with a

803
01:17:14,740 --> 01:17:23,580
But, and I enjoyed it, but I think if we could make some things, and I like what you did

804
01:17:23,580 --> 01:17:26,860
say, Mr. Maloney, and it's a holistic approach.

805
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,320
Well, and we're not trying to be very real, real specific.

806
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,180
The plant plans not designed for that.

807
01:17:34,180 --> 01:17:45,070
But I think we could be a little bit more phrase things and articulate what we have in mind

808
01:17:45,070 --> 01:17:49,010
without making things as if it's man, it's going to be mandated.

809
01:17:49,770 --> 01:17:54,110
And that's the impression that I get, as I read through this,

810
01:17:54,110 --> 01:17:55,810
and I've read it several times.

811
01:17:56,850 --> 01:17:59,490
And I keep thinking, I'm being mandated.

812
01:18:00,150 --> 01:18:04,270
If I'm a citizen, I'm being mandated to,

813
01:18:04,370 --> 01:18:05,550
I've got to have a healthy life.

814
01:18:05,670 --> 01:18:10,470
I've got to do this through this, what's written here?

815
01:18:10,470 --> 01:18:16,490
And, but I'd like to see it if we can work on some things to save the context,

816
01:18:16,990 --> 01:18:25,850
save the holistic aspect of it, but maybe just tone it down a little bit, I think.

817
01:18:26,490 --> 01:18:27,150
That's my thoughts.

818
01:18:33,870 --> 01:18:38,810
Is it possible to move this through without it becoming mandated policy?

819
01:18:40,590 --> 01:18:46,950
The plan commission can recommend any modification of the plan to the board if that's your desire.

820
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:50,010
If you'd like to eliminate the section that certainly you're prerogative.

821
01:18:50,830 --> 01:18:56,450
Because I don't think we'll get to the point within the next week when we may be looking at it.

822
01:18:58,570 --> 01:19:05,150
I think it's going to take a lot more work to get it to the point where I feel like it should be, obviously.

823
01:19:05,150 --> 01:19:13,930
because I think we need a realistic expectation of any applicant that wants to build a project that

824
01:19:13,930 --> 01:19:18,290
may need to include this as being part of the project.

825
01:19:19,270 --> 01:19:25,050
Because if I was an applicant and I had to go submit a set of conceptual drawings to the

826
01:19:25,050 --> 01:19:29,570
plan department, based on this right here, I'm not sure that I would know where to start.

827
01:19:29,570 --> 01:19:30,030
We

828
01:19:33,870 --> 01:19:42,030
need some of these things in here, but there's a lot in my opinion, Mr. Chairman.

829
01:19:43,490 --> 01:19:50,210
I haven't weighed in on this, but I do think there's something that's important for the commission to remember as we go forward.

830
01:19:50,530 --> 01:19:59,970
And it's been touched on a little bit, and that is that the comprehensive plan is really, while it may be a policy, it really does not mandate anything.

831
01:20:00,050 --> 01:20:25,130
Other than, if an application comes in, what that application is expected to address. And we have multiple sections in our comprehensive plan that deal with things like environmental resources, historic resources, that really, it's impossible to mandate anything because throughout the county those resources are different.

832
01:20:25,870 --> 01:20:32,330
It's an expectation that the zoning ordinance and the subdivision ordinance are going to contain those technical details.

833
01:20:32,570 --> 01:20:37,770
So if someone comes in and they want to know what a pedestrian path they should include,

834
01:20:38,230 --> 01:20:41,290
the comprehensive plan will never tell them what that is supposed to be.

835
01:20:41,470 --> 01:20:43,130
That's not what it is intended to do.

836
01:20:43,570 --> 01:20:50,210
The zoning ordinance will say it needs to be in a certain location, in a certain size, constructed of a certain material.

837
01:20:50,210 --> 01:20:53,810
And if it's not there, then it's a consideration.

838
01:20:54,230 --> 01:20:56,430
So if someone were to come in now with say Rutland,

839
01:20:56,970 --> 01:21:01,370
which was not done under this, with a comprehensive plan

840
01:21:01,370 --> 01:21:05,510
that stated this, there would be an expectation

841
01:21:06,170 --> 01:21:09,610
that these issues would be addressed.

842
01:21:09,850 --> 01:21:12,190
So they would say, so for instance,

843
01:21:12,310 --> 01:21:14,190
there's one here about sidewalks.

844
01:21:14,390 --> 01:21:18,390
So the question is, we intend to provide sidewalks

845
01:21:18,390 --> 01:21:25,350
pedestrian and bicycle use. There's crosswalks. To my knowledge, I think there's one crosswalk in

846
01:21:25,350 --> 01:21:31,430
Rutland. If that were to come in now, arguably the developer may want to provide more of those.

847
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:37,710
There have been a number of developments since Rutland that have shown that crosswalks can be

848
01:21:37,710 --> 01:21:45,250
very useful. That's not a requirement in our zoning ordinance. So if a developer did not come in with that,

849
01:21:45,250 --> 01:21:49,170
It would not be an automatic disqualification unless the zoning ordinance said,

850
01:21:49,270 --> 01:21:56,310
you need to provide A, B, C, and D. So my concern and the biggest issue that always comes

851
01:21:56,310 --> 01:22:00,870
up for the Planning Commission and ultimately the Board of Supervisors is you will make that

852
01:22:00,870 --> 01:22:06,710
subjective decision all the time because the main thing is whether a community is harmonious

853
01:22:06,710 --> 01:22:11,770
with the neighboring communities. There is no way that you could put in a comprehensive plan

854
01:22:11,770 --> 01:22:17,230
how one defines what a harmonious area is.

855
01:22:18,050 --> 01:22:21,170
You can provide criteria for that.

856
01:22:21,730 --> 01:22:26,710
House development size, road networks, appearance, viewsheds.

857
01:22:26,770 --> 01:22:29,810
Those are all things that can be provided for,

858
01:22:30,170 --> 01:22:34,030
but you can't expect that a comprehensive plan

859
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:36,310
is going to provide that much detail.

860
01:22:36,750 --> 01:22:39,670
And I would, as for Council with the Land Commission,

861
01:22:39,670 --> 01:22:43,130
And we would recommend that you never get into that much detail, because what that winds

862
01:22:43,130 --> 01:22:50,290
of doing is ties your hands when it comes time to create zoning districts, to create subdivision

863
01:22:50,290 --> 01:22:50,890
regulations.

864
01:22:51,150 --> 01:22:55,490
In essence, then your comprehensive plan is your zoning ordinance and your subdivision

865
01:22:55,490 --> 01:22:57,730
ordinance put together.

866
01:22:57,770 --> 01:22:58,890
And that's not what it's intended to.

867
01:22:58,910 --> 01:23:03,450
It's intended to create an expectation of the current and future needs of an area, as

868
01:23:03,450 --> 01:23:06,810
well as the community's expectations for how things are going to change in the future.

869
01:23:06,810 --> 01:23:17,450
And if you wait until you have the technical details all set out, you really aren't planning ahead you're just stating the policies that you already have in place.

870
01:23:18,090 --> 01:23:25,750
And part of the part of a comprehensive plan is to be aspirational is to show the changing of a community for the better over time.

871
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:29,930
And so I, certainly, it's up to the commission as to whether it would include this or not.

872
01:23:30,470 --> 01:23:34,170
I would suggest that we really don't want to get too much into detail.

873
01:23:34,470 --> 01:23:39,790
So any recommendations for staff to come back, I think if there's areas that you don't think are appropriate.

874
01:23:40,350 --> 01:23:42,930
Certainly, that's good to give direction to.

875
01:23:43,350 --> 01:23:46,590
But to come back and say, well, what do all of these various things mean?

876
01:23:47,230 --> 01:23:51,230
That sounds more like a zoning ordinance implementation than a comprehensive plan.

877
01:23:53,090 --> 01:23:54,670
I have a question, Mr. Chairman.

878
01:23:56,130 --> 01:24:00,610
So based on what you just said of Apple comes and looks at,

879
01:24:00,610 --> 01:24:02,350
provide you a conceptual set of drawings,

880
01:24:03,130 --> 01:24:07,070
then you would base the policy on the zoning on it,

881
01:24:07,290 --> 01:24:08,550
not the comprehensive plan.

882
01:24:09,210 --> 01:24:10,150
They work in tandem.

883
01:24:10,450 --> 01:24:15,490
So for instance, if an applicant who is in the high-less area,

884
01:24:15,630 --> 01:24:16,970
where there is not a whole lot of development,

885
01:24:17,090 --> 01:24:21,010
we're saying we think that bicyclists are primarily

886
01:24:21,010 --> 01:24:26,970
going to use the area along Ashland Road, more so than the internal ones, they may come in

887
01:24:26,970 --> 01:24:30,570
with something that shows that, but say, you know, there's probably not going to be a whole

888
01:24:30,570 --> 01:24:36,630
lot of internal cross traffic. So we may not include crosswalks, whereas if you're in old

889
01:24:37,110 --> 01:24:41,910
mechanicsville, where more people are going to be walking than bicycling likely, you may

890
01:24:41,910 --> 01:24:46,910
want to have more pedestrian ones. So they're on the list of things that you need to address,

891
01:24:47,550 --> 01:24:50,990
as well as the reasons why you're not addressing that. You may say it's not appropriate here.

892
01:24:50,990 --> 01:24:54,170
And that's entirely possible for an applicant to come in.

893
01:24:54,230 --> 01:24:57,530
The applicant can come in and say none of these seem to be appropriate here.

894
01:24:57,550 --> 01:24:59,970
And if the planning commission and the Board of Supervisors may...

895
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:05,880
The determination, so long as it's not inconsistent with our zoning regulations, that's fine. That's perfectly

896
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:11,900
defensible and that's why you have them in here so that their areas of consideration not requirements

897
01:25:11,900 --> 01:25:13,040
for approval.

898
01:25:16,060 --> 01:25:22,880
Hold in, temp, is I'm in favor of trying to get Mike Pass, walkways, anything we need for

899
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:29,660
healthy living, but I want to make sure that we've got documentation. The gifts us there

900
01:25:29,660 --> 01:25:35,980
without going through wasted expense trying to figure out in the process what we're trying to do.

901
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:44,860
Mr. Chairman, if I may, if I could draw the Planock missions attention to page 2 of Section 4,

902
01:25:45,860 --> 01:25:53,520
in the middle of that page is a chart that details the elements of a complete street.

903
01:25:54,380 --> 01:26:00,340
And I view that similar to a menu, not a checklist, but rather a menu.

904
01:26:01,480 --> 01:26:06,980
And so in the first column we have facilities promoting safe travel for all users, which

905
01:26:06,980 --> 01:26:10,760
can include sidewalks, shared-use path bike lanes, paved shoulders.

906
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:19,800
Nothing in that column suggests that a road design has to include all of those elements, but

907
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:22,360
rather those are elements that could be considered.

908
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:28,040
Safe road crossings improved by accessible curb ramps, crosswalks, refugee

909
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:35,660
islands, pedestrian signals and signage. All of those options aren't applicable on

910
01:26:35,660 --> 01:26:43,180
all types of roads. If we wanted to put a pedestrian signal with a crosswalk in the

911
01:26:43,180 --> 01:26:48,140
middle of Rutland because we thought it was a good idea, we couldn't do it if we

912
01:26:48,140 --> 01:27:01,980
So there are specific design criteria that dictate how and when those sorts of facilities

913
01:27:01,980 --> 01:27:03,960
can be implemented.

914
01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:11,480
Third column, street design options promoting safety and comfort, buffers and separation

915
01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:18,160
between vehicles and a path, narrow vehicle lanes, road diets, street connectivity, traffic

916
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:19,260
calming circles.

917
01:27:20,260 --> 01:27:28,540
Every one of those are design features that we've incorporated in a variety of projects,

918
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:31,340
not every project has those.

919
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:38,000
Additional features for improving bike and walking comfort, pedestrian scale lighting,

920
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:44,020
bench is in street furniture, bike parking facility, street trees and landscaping.

921
01:27:44,860 --> 01:27:51,000
Again, in some instances we have requirements, certainly for the street trees and landscaping.

922
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:56,700
We have provisions for lighting entrances and subdivisions and so forth.

923
01:27:58,780 --> 01:28:04,940
If the question is, how does a developer know what to plan for?

924
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:17,320
in terms of good design, we can point to this and say, which one of these elements seems to fit

925
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:25,200
the applicable project. Not have you included all of these elements in check the box, but

926
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:34,520
is there an opportunity to incorporate any of these elements or several of these elements. And if

927
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:40,860
answer is yes, then we've provided that guidance and the project moves forward.

928
01:28:41,440 --> 01:28:45,400
That's not dissimilar to the criteria that we use now.

929
01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:53,320
The difference being is we're just grabbing its draws when we're evaluating a plan with

930
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:55,500
the developer and making recommendations.

931
01:28:56,460 --> 01:29:01,240
We say, hey, it'd be nice to have a crosswalker, it'd be nice to put some benches here

932
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:02,320
what have you.

933
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:03,940
That's just a good idea.

934
01:29:03,940 --> 01:29:13,160
We have no documentation suggesting there is a rationale to include that feature other than it seems like a good idea.

935
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:16,180
To me that's very subjective.

936
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:22,720
By including a menu of options to be considered, not to be mandated, but to be considered,

937
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:30,500
that's the sort of guidance that we see answering the questions Mr. Ledbetter is raised.

938
01:29:30,500 --> 01:29:37,920
we've included examples of many of these types of facilities.

939
01:29:40,540 --> 01:29:42,780
Mr. Hader, you spoke, I'm

940
01:29:42,780 --> 01:29:50,080
moving forward to page four about concerns about retrofitting. We know of one community right now

941
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:57,120
that has expressed an interest in retrofitting and existing thoroughfare road through that community.

942
01:29:59,160 --> 01:29:59,980
I'm not prepared.

943
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:07,480
Here to comment on how that gets funded or if it gets funded. But we have some guidance as to the type of

944
01:30:07,480 --> 01:30:17,180
retrofitting that could be accomplished and provide guidance to that particular neighborhood. Again, these are intended

945
01:30:17,180 --> 01:30:19,040
to be guidelines, not mandates.

946
01:30:21,220 --> 01:30:27,500
And again, I think staff would just simply request specific

947
01:30:27,500 --> 01:30:37,580
guidance. We have no objection, modifying, evaluating, strategizing on how to modify this

948
01:30:37,580 --> 01:30:49,600
component of the comprehensive plan. But it seems it would be a lost opportunity if

949
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:56,520
in element, whether it's written exactly as proposed, but it would seem to me that we have

950
01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:05,880
lost opportunity, if an element addressing these various issues from transportation to bicycle

951
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:13,260
and pedestrian facilities to interconnectivity to access to local businesses to healthy

952
01:31:13,260 --> 01:31:20,920
living wasn't included in the comprehensive plan and so we've had a number of workshops

953
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:27,460
on this, and staff is simply seeking guidance from the commission so that we can come back to you all

954
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:30,080
next week with some revisions.

955
01:31:38,410 --> 01:31:41,410
I agree. I think that with

956
01:31:42,370 --> 01:31:44,610
attorney, we

957
01:31:44,610 --> 01:31:50,210
this has to be a generalized plan. We've heard from a lot of people that this is what they want in here.

958
01:31:52,030 --> 01:31:56,910
We don't need to design this. We don't need to fund it. It just needs to be our aspiration.

959
01:31:57,810 --> 01:32:04,710
And judging by the turnout we've had, and the feedback we've had, that's what the county wants.

960
01:32:05,110 --> 01:32:06,310
That's what the people want.

961
01:32:06,910 --> 01:32:11,590
And I don't think that this is limiting any of your developers.

962
01:32:12,430 --> 01:32:19,630
Ashland's already put in Rogers' built Lansing Bridal, put in pathways in there,

963
01:32:20,110 --> 01:32:23,070
with Lord Dell and Ashland.

964
01:32:23,370 --> 01:32:25,650
They're putting pathways in that community as well.

965
01:32:25,650 --> 01:32:29,390
It's just an aspiration, it's not design.

966
01:32:30,370 --> 01:32:31,510
As far as I'm concerned.

967
01:32:33,690 --> 01:32:35,530
Can I bring up something Mr. Chairman?

968
01:32:35,910 --> 01:32:39,910
So Mr. Maloney, when a developer comes in,

969
01:32:40,110 --> 01:32:43,130
and we have some guidance like this.

970
01:32:44,850 --> 01:32:48,730
So I think that will help speed up the process up and help them.

971
01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:52,410
I mean, not that we try to speed everything up.

972
01:32:52,410 --> 01:32:57,270
Now, but for my perspective, it actually adds clarity in guidance.

973
01:32:58,210 --> 01:33:02,330
Again, the RS ordinance has certain mandates.

974
01:33:02,530 --> 01:33:03,750
You have to put in street trees.

975
01:33:03,870 --> 01:33:05,330
You have to put in thoroughfare buffers.

976
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:07,750
You have to put in pedestrian paths.

977
01:33:08,350 --> 01:33:12,630
The ordinance itself doesn't really talk directly about interconnection

978
01:33:12,630 --> 01:33:15,590
with other neighborhoods and communities.

979
01:33:17,210 --> 01:33:21,130
That's really sort of the aspirational aspects of the comprehensive plan.

980
01:33:21,130 --> 01:33:24,230
Let me use a real-life example.

981
01:33:26,150 --> 01:33:31,210
The neighborhood I live in off-of-value station is connected to

982
01:33:32,650 --> 01:33:37,490
topotomy, atly-redge, castle wood,

983
01:33:42,890 --> 01:33:47,830
someone can travel and honeymettos and through honeymettos

984
01:33:47,830 --> 01:33:48,650
to the schools.

985
01:33:48,650 --> 01:33:59,630
So somebody can travel from the intersection of sliding hill road and autonomy trail to

986
01:33:59,630 --> 01:34:08,510
atly high school without going onto sliding hill road or atly road.

987
01:34:09,350 --> 01:34:18,210
And when I say travel, travel by foot or bicycle, there is not any vehicular interconnection.

988
01:34:19,750 --> 01:34:24,650
and I'll add Kingswood Court to that list as well.

989
01:34:26,270 --> 01:34:30,270
Understanding concerns about neighborhoods not connecting.

990
01:34:31,790 --> 01:34:39,990
If when topotomy and Kingswood Court and some of those somewhat older neighborhoods were planned,

991
01:34:40,330 --> 01:34:43,470
and we said, well, there's nothing around these neighborhoods,

992
01:34:44,390 --> 01:34:47,910
So we're not going to provide for interconnection.

993
01:34:48,510 --> 01:34:52,170
Then all of that traffic would be absolutely forced out on to

994
01:34:52,170 --> 01:34:54,390
Sliding Hill Road Nalli Station Road.

995
01:34:55,210 --> 01:34:57,890
And so nobody wants to build a road to nowhere,

996
01:34:58,050 --> 01:34:59,950
nobody wants to build a sidewalk to nowhere.

997
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:20,880
Where there is no realistic possibility of interconnection within the foreseeable future. But we have to have some amount of foresight and look at what the development potential is not only for the subject property but adjacent properties.

998
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:27,240
And that's how we base those decisions. Do we provide an interconnection or do we not provide an interconnection?

999
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:36,580
And so, you know, whether it's what facilities do we include in the comprehensive plan

1000
01:35:37,180 --> 01:35:43,780
that we negotiate as part of a development to whether or not we interconnect neighborhoods,

1001
01:35:44,700 --> 01:35:51,980
so much that is decided as I stated on a case-by-case basis in the context of a specific

1002
01:35:51,980 --> 01:35:58,080
development proposal. But if we don't plan for it, it's not going to happen. That's

1003
01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:04,420
one certainty. There's a lot of certainty about what happens, how do we fund it, how is it

1004
01:36:04,420 --> 01:36:10,000
going to be expanded if we plan for it. But what I can tell you is the certainty is if we

1005
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:16,420
don't plan for it, it doesn't happen. And I think those are really the two choices handover's

1006
01:36:16,420 --> 01:36:21,840
facing. Regardless of what's in the plan, I just want to go back to the fact that from

1007
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:29,220
state funding standpoint from a local regulatory standpoint from a state road maintenance

1008
01:36:29,220 --> 01:36:36,840
standpoint, these things are mandated. And so do we plan for it deliberately or do we continue

1009
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:42,920
to approach it on an ad hoc basis like we've done for many years? And that's really the question

1010
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:44,080
facing the commission.

1011
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:53,840
I can understand what Mr. Walter saying that it's hard to, I guess, put

1012
01:36:53,840 --> 01:37:00,100
and exact number on how many houses have to go into a subdivision before you implement this.

1013
01:37:00,660 --> 01:37:03,420
But I believe it was just gentleman back here, said he lived in Kohl Harbor.

1014
01:37:04,780 --> 01:37:11,120
I can understand why, where you live in King's Charter, it's nice to have those

1015
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:15,880
past and why the streets pedestrian. But if he's in Kohl Harbor,

1016
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:20,380
and it's just the same. He was in Bander Runoff, a westward road.

1017
01:37:21,400 --> 01:37:26,440
But, well, I would, we want to put something where, out there, we probably wouldn't.

1018
01:37:27,060 --> 01:37:33,080
And the nice thing about this is a flexible plan like this, gives the planning commission

1019
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:35,340
to board the option to make those decisions.

1020
01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:42,100
If we want to give the developer a very clear guideline, the easiest way to do that is mandated

1021
01:37:42,100 --> 01:37:43,080
through ordinance.

1022
01:37:43,580 --> 01:37:48,360
Not provide a menu of alternatives to be considered, but rather, rather than the ordinance

1023
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:54,080
saying, if you're going to build Norris development, you have to have ABC and D. And if we go

1024
01:37:54,080 --> 01:37:59,700
down that path, then we end up with the very poor examples that Mr. Ledbetter has pointed

1025
01:37:59,700 --> 01:38:02,960
out. And I don't think any of us want to go down that path.

1026
01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:05,420
Yeah, I think that's what we're trying to avoid.

1027
01:38:11,530 --> 01:38:19,950
For me, I would like to, and I welcome input from the other commissioners. I would like to

1028
01:38:19,950 --> 01:38:23,630
I have some time to study this particular section a little bit more.

1029
01:38:23,910 --> 01:38:24,850
Rather than voting on it tonight,

1030
01:38:25,010 --> 01:38:28,950
I would like to delay the vote until our regular meeting on the 14th.

1031
01:38:29,490 --> 01:38:30,670
That's now and days on that.

1032
01:38:30,830 --> 01:38:34,070
Give us some time to look at it in a little more detail.

1033
01:38:35,530 --> 01:38:40,390
And, of course, staff is happy to meet individually with any of you

1034
01:38:42,350 --> 01:38:47,890
to identify specific concerns and make any adjustments that you feel

1035
01:38:47,890 --> 01:38:54,870
appropriate. I'm at some anyone else. Anyone else have any objections to waiting until

1036
01:38:54,870 --> 01:39:01,860
our regular meeting on the 14th? I don't miss a jam. It's just some of the verbiage.

1037
01:39:01,860 --> 01:39:08,640
I mean, maybe it's just vague, but encourage, promote. It can kind of lean towards mandate.

1038
01:39:08,860 --> 01:39:12,600
And I think if some simple verbiage could be put in, it's like this is not a mandate.

1039
01:39:16,460 --> 01:39:19,340
This is what

1040
01:39:19,340 --> 01:39:23,700
goal of hand over carry being a community to support physical, social, mental, well-being,

1041
01:39:23,860 --> 01:39:26,960
is all that citizens to help create vibrant and safe places to live.

1042
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:29,180
I think that's us now.

1043
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:37,600
But that's for this policy, but just maybe some verbiage legalese that it's not a mandate

1044
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:38,500
to retirement.

1045
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:42,040
It would be my favor.

1046
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:50,240
I agree with Mr. McGee and you take a look at some of the areas that health impact, I don't

1047
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:54,520
I think anybody argues health impacts should be considered when evaluating new developments.

1048
01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:58,340
Encourage the consideration of biking and walking facilities.

1049
01:39:58,940 --> 01:39:59,620
That's great.

1050
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:09,120
Purposeful placement of open spaces which provides for various types of recreation. We talk about buffers and landscaping throughout it.

1051
01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:17,940
We already take a lot of that in consideration when we have applications. Also, crosswalks, connectivity, proposed neighborhoods.

1052
01:40:17,940 --> 01:40:26,960
I see those as feasible ideas, I think it is in some of the verbiage just gets to, even

1053
01:40:27,700 --> 01:40:32,360
though according to our attorney, it's not necessarily mandated.

1054
01:40:33,440 --> 01:40:38,160
It gives the impression that we are mandating it.

1055
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:44,280
And that's what I say if we could work on, I want a section like this.

1056
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:52,360
but I want a section that we is not making us walk out or when we have this put for us we're

1057
01:40:52,360 --> 01:40:58,360
having to really struggle with is this something we have to have. I think staff can go through

1058
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:03,920
the document between now and your next meeting and reevaluate some of that language and address

1059
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:10,080
those concerns absolutely. I'll be happy to. I got time if you want me to come down. I'll talk with

1060
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:11,660
I also want to let you know.

1061
01:41:11,740 --> 01:41:12,060
All right.

1062
01:41:12,220 --> 01:41:17,920
How long do you think it would take to come up with something like that and get it to each of us

1063
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:22,460
so that we have time to look at this final language in review it prior to the meeting?

1064
01:41:23,500 --> 01:41:29,960
I think if it's the generally speaking, if it's the wordsmithing that you, several of you have suggested,

1065
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:38,860
I think we could turn something around to you early next week and have a couple days before your regular December meeting.

1066
01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:51,740
I don't think it's nothing, this is not what all of us want it, just want a little clarity on it, but we all want it, you know, anything that's better for the county.

1067
01:41:53,980 --> 01:42:08,020
I think what we're trying to prevent is not having any clarity that the two parties that have to get together, planning and who of the applicant may be.

1068
01:42:08,660 --> 01:42:13,120
So, and I know you made the comment as ultimately the planning commission and the board

1069
01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:13,960
response building.

1070
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:20,180
The problem with that is we may not always be in those meetings when this project or what

1071
01:42:20,180 --> 01:42:21,560
other project is being planned.

1072
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:28,040
So there's going to be a lot more in my opinion from what I see that we have here, a lot

1073
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:33,400
more frustration trying to get to the point where what you interpret this being with the

1074
01:42:33,400 --> 01:42:39,200
in terms of being taken number of passes to get to that point.

1075
01:42:39,580 --> 01:42:43,380
And when we start adding that cost and that timeframe,

1076
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:47,320
that's expense for the county as well as the applicants.

1077
01:42:47,980 --> 01:42:52,580
And it could deter projects like this from getting built.

1078
01:42:54,460 --> 01:42:55,800
And I understand that.

1079
01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:59,100
And so again, if it's the desire of the commission,

1080
01:42:59,100 --> 01:43:06,180
And then my staff and I will go back and try to add some little more clarity as to the

1081
01:43:06,180 --> 01:43:10,440
purpose in the tent, so as to not create that potential confusion.

1082
01:43:15,440 --> 01:43:16,580
Very complex issue.

1083
01:43:17,020 --> 01:43:17,920
I mean, you know, I call it great.

1084
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:19,300
There's no one in ambiguous this way.

1085
01:43:19,300 --> 01:43:26,320
Every piece of property is different and appreciate the capacity to develop a basis of information

1086
01:43:26,320 --> 01:43:29,240
for exactly what those desires are on that side.

1087
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:30,180
So

1088
01:43:36,620 --> 01:43:43,700
is there one in agreement that we will delay vote to the 14th and that the plan to

1089
01:43:43,700 --> 01:43:52,060
pomegranate will have some revised wording on Section 4 midweek next week?

1090
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:55,340
Everybody okay with that?

1091
01:43:56,060 --> 01:43:57,100
All right.

1092
01:43:57,940 --> 01:43:59,360
Do we have anything on the miscellaneous?

1093
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:00,940
Well, I was going to ask.

1094
01:44:01,460 --> 01:44:04,520
We've spent a considerable amount of time on Chapter 4.

1095
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:06,540
That's only one component of the plan.

1096
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:11,800
Are there any other areas of concern or discussion for the commission?

1097
01:44:15,170 --> 01:44:17,230
That was the only hurry that I really had some concern.

1098
01:44:17,630 --> 01:44:19,310
OK, we'll try to clarify that.

1099
01:44:19,410 --> 01:44:19,650
OK.

1100
01:44:20,910 --> 01:44:23,290
I think you've given us clear direction.

1101
01:44:24,070 --> 01:44:28,350
And hopefully we will be able to provide you a product that addresses your concerns.

1102
01:44:30,270 --> 01:44:31,810
We have anything in the miscellaneous.

1103
01:44:35,190 --> 01:44:36,870
That was then the journey to the 14th.