1 00:00:01,839 --> 00:00:09,519 All right. Good afternoon. This is the September 10th meeting of the Fire and 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,040 Rescue Planning Committee. And uh what we I've been trying to do is first of 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:18,560 all take up the minutes from the last meeting. If everybody's had a chance to 4 00:00:15,599 --> 00:00:24,000 read them and have any questions on the minutes 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:30,320 or are we good to Oh, good. Somebody can make a motion to adopt the minutes. 6 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:34,239 Nelson moves. We can come wrestle over who seconds it 7 00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:36,800 or we can call it Chief Mercier. Chief Mercier seconds it. All in favor? 8 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:41,520 » I. >> Any opposed? Thank you. 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,920 » I I did make one change. I spelled the name wrong. 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:49,039 » Oh. Oh yeah. >> Nons substantive. 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:53,840 » Um yeah, just in the future I guess the 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:57,520 only thing is under next meeting details. It says adjourned at 2:35. I'm 13 00:00:56,239 --> 00:01:00,960 assuming that was the current meeting, not the next meeting at the end of the 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:06,080 just the way it was formatted in previously. 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,040 » We will adjourn at 2:35. >> I think it was uh 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:18,000 » All right. Um so we have a guest that would like to speak to us and I think 17 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:21,640 rather than beat around the bush, we just let this happen. 18 00:01:24,479 --> 00:01:27,280 » I'm sorry. 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,400 I wanted to just 20 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:35,799 reconve 21 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:07,880 The reason is fire alarms calls. 22 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,680 If you look statistically at what has happened, I'm just going to 23 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:20,080 talk about harps because I don't have access to 24 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:28,800 we've had 137 calls between January 1st and August 31st at harps neck. Of those 25 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:33,200 42 were dealt in it. 42. Now the vast majority of those are 26 00:02:30,959 --> 00:02:38,319 shortness of breath calls or loss of consciousness calls. They're not MI or 27 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:43,519 heart attack calls or cardiac arrest calls. In fact, we had three cardiac 28 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:47,040 arrest calls and three calls that were described as MIS, but they all turned 29 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:52,480 out not to be MIS when we arrived on scene. 30 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:57,680 So what's really happening is that in our calls we're not spending a lot of 31 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:02,319 time at scene. We're getting there because the nature of these calls we are 32 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:09,519 typically moving the patient fairly quickly towards the hospital. And the 33 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:17,599 idea that somebody can come from OBI and render value to us is probably 34 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:22,879 not supported by the facts. were gone by the time that somebody from OBI could 35 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:28,239 come or there really is no need for somebody at OBI because it's not a 36 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:32,799 cardiac arrest. It's not an MI. It's a more basic call that can be handled 37 00:03:30,959 --> 00:03:40,159 pretty easily. So what I'm telling you is I I 38 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:45,200 understand the belief that these calls all involve cardiac arrests or MIS and 39 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:50,959 that value can be provided by sending more bodies to the scene. But that's not 40 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:54,799 what the data shows. The data shows that the vast majority of these calls are 41 00:03:52,959 --> 00:03:59,040 pretty routine calls where we're moving the patient fairly quickly from the 42 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:03,599 scene and there is no opportunity for additional people to arrive on scene and 43 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:07,200 render care. Now, at Harpsswell Neck, it may be a little different from your 44 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:12,159 organizations, Ben. At Harpsville Neck, anytime we have a Delta Echo, we expect 45 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:17,359 more than one EMT to arrive on scene. That's just our protocol. So, at harps 46 00:04:14,959 --> 00:04:20,959 neck for all of these Delta Echo calls except for a handful that were in the 47 00:04:18,799 --> 00:04:26,320 middle of the night. When you go through the the narratives on all these, we have 48 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:31,120 two if not three EMTs are audiencing from Harpell Neck in addition to the Mid 49 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:37,680 Coast paramedics, in addition to our drivers. So, we have a pretty full boat 50 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:41,919 in often what is a small location working on a patient. We're talking 51 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:46,720 about six people uh on these Delta Echo calls in a small scene. throwing in two 52 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:51,440 more people doesn't really add value unless that 53 00:04:49,199 --> 00:04:57,520 they're a higher level of care that we can't provide which may exist in some 54 00:04:53,520 --> 00:05:01,360 situations but as I've told you the cardiac arrest and MI calls where you 55 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:09,479 need that higher level care simply are the volume isn't there 56 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,479 what I would suggest is 57 00:05:09,919 --> 00:05:15,680 Walgreens calling me because my prescription is 58 00:05:13,919 --> 00:05:20,240 Uh what I would suggest instead because I 59 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,080 think you're going to have a lot of wasted diesel as well as putting the 60 00:05:22,479 --> 00:05:29,840 community at risk because you're moving your pdiums away from where they're 61 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:35,919 stationed perhaps for no reason. That the better approach would be allow the 62 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:39,440 Mid Coast paramedic or the EMT on scene. And by the way, I'm speaking only from 63 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:44,160 Harpsville next standpoint. I can't tell you what's right for you guys, but from 64 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:50,160 a HARP next standpoint, my recommendation would be let the mid 65 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:55,440 coast paramedic or the EMT say we need assistance. If you guys want to move and 66 00:05:52,880 --> 00:06:00,479 stage at the town hall, that's up to you. If you want to stage at your 67 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:07,120 station, that's up to you. But the reality is in 95% of the cases, we'll be 68 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:12,400 gone by the time you get there or at such a low level call. she didn't need 69 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:17,759 to come at all. So I would like you to rethink this idea and not have an 70 00:06:15,039 --> 00:06:21,759 automated response travel to the scene concept 71 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:28,160 where the data doesn't support that that's really needed. 72 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:32,560 » So can you're you're not distinguishing between delta and echoes. 73 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:37,840 » Correct. I lumped them all together. >> Okay. 74 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:41,600 » We have 40 42 delta and echo. So echoes have a very high prevalence of if it 75 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,680 comes in with an echo, >> right? 76 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,639 » That's either respiratory or cardiac arrest. 77 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,240 » Understand? >> That's that's not a questionable call. 78 00:06:47,039 --> 00:06:50,080 » Understand? >> So 79 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,080 » we have three echoes. >> Okay. 80 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,000 » Interstate. >> We had a cardiac arrest at 10 Bailey. 81 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,160 And by the way, I was on all three calls. 82 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,639 » 10 Bailey. >> So you're the common denominator. 83 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:05,280 » Yeah, I'm the one who's killing off people. uh Tim Bailey and we hit a Rosk 84 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:11,039 in the middle of the night off point. Those were our three echo calls that we 85 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000 have had since the beginning of the year in the U 10 Bailey. It was during the 86 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:20,880 day. No one. >> So So just so you're aware because 87 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,800 this is being recorded. >> Okay. I'm not going to mention names. 88 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:32,560 » I I wouldn't I wouldn't even addresses. >> Okay. All right. Three calls. 89 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:36,319 um one south of our station, one somewhat to the northeast of the 90 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,520 station, and then the call at the very tip of uh Ash Point. 91 00:07:39,039 --> 00:07:45,840 » Okay. >> Uh the one to the south of the station, 92 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:50,400 there was no effort. I I can't tell you what day of the week it was. It was a 93 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:55,120 weekday. Nobody from another department responded. I was there along with three 94 00:07:52,479 --> 00:08:01,440 other EMTs, two paramedics, two sheriffs, and three drivers. And Uh we 95 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:06,000 worked that patient for 25 minutes. Uh she was flatlining the whole time. It 96 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:09,599 was in an 8 by 12 foot room. If you guys had come, you would have been standing 97 00:08:07,039 --> 00:08:15,520 out on the porch or one of us would have had to leave. It just there wasn't 98 00:08:11,919 --> 00:08:22,560 space. That that patient frankly I was the first on scene. Um we had very 99 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:25,520 limited opportunity with her. The rosque was a rasque. It was in the middle of 100 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:31,280 the night. PDMS could not have responded because you got there's no at 11:00 p.m. 101 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:36,159 at night, but we responded with three a uh three EMTs, a paramedic, and three 102 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,479 drivers. And we rosted and then transported that patient. The third was 103 00:08:38,719 --> 00:08:46,720 interstate. uh interstate. 104 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:53,760 It was a difficult call, but I want I wanted to keep in mind that we had four 105 00:08:50,880 --> 00:09:01,040 firefighters from Harold Neck, three EMTs from Harps neck and a paramedic 106 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:06,880 from Mid Coast before an OBI firefighter or PDM arrived. And when the OBI 107 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:10,040 prediums did arrive, I mean, you remember this 108 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,760 And Frank, you were there. You remember how crowded that was? 109 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,480 » I'm sorry. You remember how crowded that was? 110 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,839 » Yeah. >> There wasn't a whole lot of room on 111 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:25,760 that. We were working the patient in the camera. 112 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:31,120 » So, that call was underway for a good 25 113 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:36,560 minutes before an OBI. 114 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:41,760 So, just understand that there are practical challenges with this idea of 115 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:48,080 automatically sending a predium firefighter to a location 116 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:54,240 that's far away maybe falsely flagged as a delta or echo. Uh 117 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:58,720 and often we have space and time limitations that exist in these calls. 118 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:05,600 So just be careful before assuming that this 119 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:09,040 makes is going to change might. So, 120 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:15,120 um, and I've been thinking about the Delta level calls because we've had a 121 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:19,040 few that they've autoresponded on and I don't know. 122 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:25,760 Of course, we haven't had enough of them to know if we're going to see positive, 123 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:32,320 right? But as I was saying before the meeting 124 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:35,680 started, my intent is was to ask our folks that if they get there and 125 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,680 determine they don't need the staff to turn them around. But the problem is one 126 00:10:38,079 --> 00:10:41,360 of the things you identified clearly is response time. 127 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:47,839 » Right. >> Right. And if if you're shortanded and 128 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:52,160 you wait till you get to the scene on a on an echo level call before you call 129 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,920 for help, you've just delayed that decision, whatever your initial response 130 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:58,560 time was, right? So I'm not talking about the deltas right at the minute. 131 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,800 I'm talking about I'm talking about the echoes. 132 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,680 » But if I'm a good AMT and I'm on shift, I know who's coming to the call because 133 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:10,320 I'm listening to my radio. I know what bodies I've got when I climb in my car. 134 00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:13,360 I know who's coming and what what grade they are. I know whether got a 135 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:18,480 paramedic, how many EMTs and who's coming. So, I have a good idea when I 136 00:11:16,079 --> 00:11:22,480 leave my house what the staffing is going to be. Then I might hear Nelson or 137 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:26,240 David chime in that they're coming as well. So, it's not like we're in a 138 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:30,000 vacuum and we have to show up on scene and do a headcount. That's not the way 139 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:38,320 it works. We know when we're leaving our home what the staffing will be. So, 140 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:41,360 my suggestion continues to be if you want to move, 141 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:46,560 fine. But I would recommend you come as far as 142 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:50,399 the town and wait for further direction at that point. But coming all the way to 143 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:55,680 the scene is probably not a, you know, especially 144 00:11:52,720 --> 00:12:00,320 with an engine, it's probably not going to help much. You have a question. 145 00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:04,880 » Um, so the Lucas device, I know that we have a Lucas device and I believe 146 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:10,720 Kundy's Harbor has a Lucas device on their ambulance. I believe that you guys 147 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:16,079 do not. Is that a correct statement? We rely on mid coast MC2. 148 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,720 » So if MC2 is not here, you don't have a Lucas device. Is that 149 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,680 » correct? In which case, we would then call for 150 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:26,720 » So that's why we need more people, you know, like responding to you. If it's an 151 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:31,040 echo, if you don't have a Lucas device to take place of an EMT, if you're 152 00:12:28,959 --> 00:12:34,880 responding to an echo call, then you you would use the Lucas device. But if you 153 00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:41,200 don't have a Lucas device, you need other people. And I think it's better to 154 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:45,600 er on the side of having too many people than not enough people and have the 155 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:50,639 delay that Ben just said. You know, if you go on site and then say, "Hey, wait, 156 00:12:48,079 --> 00:12:56,000 don't call don't call anybody until I say you're involved in a in doing 157 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,120 compressions and if there are other people there, then they could call the 158 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,639 town and that you know the people that are staged there and get them fast. But 159 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:07,680 if they're already there, I don't understand why you don't want additional 160 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:12,399 help. To me, it just seems like you need additional help. Why don't you come? 161 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:17,519 » I think part of it what what Scott's pointing out is if you're responding 162 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:21,760 from your station, your 20 minute response time is not effective. 163 00:13:19,839 --> 00:13:25,839 » It depends on where you are. I I guess it depends on it doesn't take 20 164 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:29,600 minutes. If you're responding from your station, 165 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:35,680 » your 20 minute response time is not effective for us on our side of town. 166 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:40,720 takes to address the issue with the Lucas to the call that we had at 167 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Interstate. >> Yeah. 168 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:48,000 » The paramedics were tied up on a call on your side of 169 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:53,680 town. So the Lucas tool wasn't available and 170 00:13:50,959 --> 00:13:57,760 they were transporting a basic level call 171 00:13:55,279 --> 00:14:00,639 and yet they tied up the paramedic. >> Yeah, we always do. Everybody does, 172 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,959 right? Doesn't everybody >> Can I finish please? 173 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:09,839 » Yeah. So on that call, 174 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:14,560 the fly car Lucas tool was unavailable. >> Your ambulance was transporting. Your 175 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,680 Lucas tool was unavailable. >> Yeah. 176 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:21,519 » And the next paramedic for us arriving came from a wool witch. 177 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:28,560 » Yes, I remember. Yeah. So, we had a perfect storm that by the time the 178 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:35,199 people responded from your station, as was pointed out, we were 25 minutes into 179 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:38,079 the call without the life-saving equipment we should have had. 180 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,079 » So, you should just buy it. >> Why don't you buy a Lucas? 181 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:43,120 » Why you don't own one? >> Just buy a Lucas device. We all the 182 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,920 other ones have them. >> That's a That's a wrong answer to the 183 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,959 problem. >> I mean, it's a Lucas thing, I think, is 184 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:52,560 a different discussion than what we're talking about. No, I I fully agree, but 185 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:57,279 we're into the Lucas thing. So, I just give you what I think should be the 186 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,279 solution is is buy one. Solve this problem. 187 00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:01,839 » You said we don't have this problem. We got them all over the place. But the 188 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:06,399 fact is we just give an example. >> I've said it from the beginning. We need 189 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:09,279 clear direction and every and I knew it was going to be coming because as soon 190 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:12,639 as we start responding and it's only harmful side soon as we start 191 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,000 responding, I knew it was going to we were going to take flack. 192 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,839 » Yeah. >> And it's just a matter of time and it's 193 00:15:16,079 --> 00:15:24,880 all wants clear. clear direction of what you want from town staff so that we can 194 00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:28,800 do what you guys want us to do so that we can 195 00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:34,320 » Well, Muriel rolled today twice. >> I mean, I don't know if she had anybody 196 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:39,760 with her, but she rolled twice on any >> I appreciate your 197 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:45,279 think >> and sending more people is different 198 00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:50,000 than sending equipment just and the equipment in theory can be addressed, 199 00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:54,320 but the Lucas example doesn't mean that you need to send pium firefighters to 200 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,320 adopt the call. >> I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the 201 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:03,279 whole time factor. I I don't disagree with some of that. Although I would say 202 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:09,120 for an example, yesterday we were at the town office and all the ambulances are 203 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:13,680 basically out of town from other side of Cook's Corner, 204 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:16,320 » West Bath almost from the hospital and we can make first patient contact, 205 00:16:15,839 --> 00:16:21,120 » right? >> And which I thought I guess what's best 206 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,160 for the patient even though it's wasn't even I think it's an alpha call. It 207 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,680 wasn't even a delta. >> Correct. 208 00:16:24,639 --> 00:16:29,600 » Yeah, it was an alpha. >> Again, I think some of the times that's 209 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:33,920 prudent for somebody to make contact with that patient. So, they're not 210 00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:38,000 waiting 15 or 20 minutes for somebody to drive from mid coast to to make contact 211 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,639 with >> three was there at least 15 minutes 212 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:45,839 before the >> regardless. But that I mean that was one 213 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:48,880 of the times when we said discretion because 214 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:52,160 I was here. I was at town office with the engine when we're saying, "Well, 215 00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:55,440 it's one of those discretion things and I guess they had toned out harbor and 216 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,680 you were texted us." >> Yeah, I texted the crew because they it 217 00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:03,680 was a rescue 5 call all the way on the other side of town. I said, "Please 218 00:17:00,959 --> 00:17:07,679 start that way because I knew it was going to take at least 25 minutes for 219 00:17:05,919 --> 00:17:10,400 rescue 5 to get over there." >> And that was before we even knew what 220 00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:17,760 the call. We just knew it was an EMS call in the address. I didn't want to 221 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:20,880 delay patient contact for 25 30 minutes. >> Time does matter though and I I I 222 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:25,439 wouldn't argue that part. >> So you rolled an engine to a patient 223 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:28,720 that has known psychological problems >> with the license. That's what happened 224 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,240 to that. >> Well, that's that that's okay. Why 225 00:17:31,679 --> 00:17:35,120 wouldn't that >> No, it isn't. 226 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,400 » I mean, that's not okay on that on a protocol basis. So that that's a mistake 227 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,320 in >> Well, how would you know that? How would 228 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,200 you know? >> Alcohol. I know exactly what I'm 229 00:17:41,919 --> 00:17:50,960 supposed to be doing on an alpha call. No lights, no siren. So, I mean, that's 230 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:54,240 that's just the situation. Make main EMS protocol statutory. Anything else you 231 00:17:53,840 --> 00:18:00,559 could want? >> I've explained to our volunteers on on 232 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,520 cold responses on alphas and bravos. I don't believe I've yet had a 233 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:07,360 conversation with Frank or the town staff about alpha, excuse me, alphas and 234 00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:14,080 charlie. I don't think we've had that conversation yet about town response. So 235 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:16,240 I don't know if they responded lights and siren or not on that call. I just 236 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:22,880 know that >> this room call is the volume. 237 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:25,679 » We're not using addresses but >> might agree with you. 238 00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:29,360 » I'm just saying Charlie call. >> This is the one that rescue 5 got toned 239 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:34,240 out for when rescue 3 and rescue 7 were both at the hospital. 240 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:38,480 » When I I saw you guys go by road and I didn't see the lights. 241 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:42,160 » I I didn't go with them. There was two guys in the 242 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,120 I wasn't I don't know if they used lights or 243 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:49,440 » I didn't assume lights or sirens. >> I'm assuming they knew because it said 244 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:54,320 on the radio that there was no issue with it was just a dead whatever. It was 245 00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:58,320 the issue there wasn't a big issue with what was happening. 246 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,799 » Our thought was let's just make patient contact so that it's not somebody's not 247 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:07,120 waiting 20 minutes. >> So I don't recall that there was any 248 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:12,720 information provided about potential. We know that. Um, did you hear that that 249 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,919 Rescue 7 said it was going to the scene and just disregard it? 250 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:20,240 » They radioed in and said that they were heading to the scene. 251 00:19:17,679 --> 00:19:23,840 » They were already resent 3 was in route before rescue 7 said that they were 252 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:28,880 going to clear and take the call. >> Yeah. 253 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:35,600 » So, just just to clarify this, I was on a job at the intersection road, Mountain 254 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:40,720 Road. I saw engine three go through, no lights, no siren. Um, several minutes 255 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,679 later, I saw rescue 7 go through with the lights on and then they siren when 256 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:48,080 they hit the intersection. So, that's what I saw. 257 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:53,760 » Okay. >> Regardless, I I it was one of those ones 258 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:57,280 where we No, I didn't I I did hear them later on say something about cancelling 259 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,720 I I did hear say something about cancelling rescue 5 260 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:03,520 » or whatever it was that they were going to take the call, 261 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:09,039 » but Can I I don't mean to offend anybody, 262 00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:14,000 but I'm put my lawyer on it. From an EMS standpoint, the only 263 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:20,400 organizations that have authority to make decisions about EMS care are OBI 264 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:24,000 counties. The town of Harpsville does not have an 265 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:27,520 EMS license and cannot be making decisions about how to staff calls. 266 00:20:25,679 --> 00:20:30,240 » And I believe he didn't because I think it was 267 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:35,280 » I just want to make sure that's clear that town employees 268 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:38,400 don't have the authority under manium as rags 269 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,280 » to decide whether to go to a call or not. 270 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,799 » That's correct. >> Remember I I I told you at the very 271 00:20:43,039 --> 00:20:48,720 beginning right >> as right not the chief of harps neck but 272 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:52,000 the chief of the agency that was assigned the call 273 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,320 » which was I made the call and asked them to respond. 274 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:58,559 » I just want to make sure we agree on that. when whenever the town staff 275 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:03,520 responds and this this way in the town ordinance as well they are operating 276 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:08,480 under the agency under whose truck they are responding on they are not because 277 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:12,400 the town doesn't have an agency. >> So 278 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:17,280 I think we're getting way too deep on that one alpha call that occurred 279 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:24,559 yesterday. I just want to get back to the concept of automatic response of 280 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:32,799 Delta and Echo calls and try and point out that the data doesn't indicate 281 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:38,799 that there is a need for this. And when you look at the 42 narratives, I read 282 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:42,559 them all. There's no suggestion in any of those Delta Echo calls that 283 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:48,960 additional staffing would have changed an outcome. 284 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:52,000 And I'm happy to print them out and redact them and let you read them and 285 00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:54,000 you can disagree. But I'm just telling you 286 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,400 » I I don't need to read your >> okay 287 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:02,960 » even redacted. I don't need to read your reports. I I not going to in any in any 288 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:08,080 form or shape or form suggest that you are not presenting a true and accurate 289 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:14,799 account of the data that you reviewed. Um I I like I said uh today we had two 290 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:20,880 calls. The staff responded on the calls because that's what the policy was. They 291 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:27,440 were both delta level calls. Um and It's very hard to have a policy that reflects 292 00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:30,559 every scenario, >> right? 293 00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:34,480 » We as a group and actually this was the decision we had made years ago. The 294 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:41,600 policy with Delta and Echo years ago and we just re um we reaffirmed that last 295 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:48,640 month. The same policy we had always had that had fallen by the wayside. uh if 296 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:52,559 deltas aren't necessary and the data says they're not necessary and that's 297 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:58,159 what Harpsack wants to do, I don't have a problem with that. I would I would 298 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:03,840 encourage, not my agency, I would encourage that you continue to have them 299 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:09,760 respond on echolle calls and then when you get there, if you don't need them, 300 00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:12,720 cancel them because echoes you you said you've had three of them, right? 301 00:23:11,679 --> 00:23:15,840 » This year. >> Yeah. We had three of them this year. 302 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:21,039 We're not talking a significant number of calls. We're not talking adding uh a 303 00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:25,679 measurable risk to the community by having them respond. But there is a risk 304 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,840 to the patient if you don't have enough staff and if you wait and delay 305 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:35,360 treatment and find out you don't have enough staff. That's my encouragement. 306 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:40,960 » I completely agree with I completely agree with you that staffing levels on 307 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:45,679 these calls echo calls involve extended onseen care. They're very different from 308 00:23:43,679 --> 00:23:52,480 all the other calls. You're working the patient for 20 minutes to an hour on 309 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:56,640 scene. Having more bodies can be very valuable call. 310 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,440 » And and even if you guys had a Lucas on your truck, I've seen this. The Lucas 311 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,360 does not fit every patient. >> No, it doesn't fit everybody. 312 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,960 » You you need the the backs that can do the chest compressions that the Lucas is 313 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,720 not going to fit the patient. It doesn't happen very often, but it happened to me 314 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:18,080 twice last year alone >> on a number of patients that I had. So, 315 00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:23,679 » um, and again, like like we've all said, uh, if if they're coming along, right, 316 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:28,320 even on echolle calls, we should not be driving four-wheel vehicles on two 317 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:33,279 wheels, right? We should be operating appropriately to maintain public safety. 318 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,320 And if you have an EMS provider, unnecessarily a driver, and they get 319 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,120 there and they say, "This isn't a cardiac arrest or you know, and I have 320 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:45,200 three people and don't need any help carrying and they want to call engine 321 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,799 3." He said, "We're all set. Thank you. You can you can return." Nobody's going 322 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:55,760 to be offended by that. That's the lowhanging fruit. If you don't want to 323 00:24:51,360 --> 00:25:01,520 do deltas, I I think Obsc is perfectly capable of deciding whether or not 324 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:06,799 deltas fit your parameters. I I haven't had them respond on enough deltas since 325 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:11,520 we started this back up to know, but so far I think I think when you look back 326 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:17,120 at the policy, we've had the policy in place for a long 327 00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:22,960 time. It's but what we experienced during that period of time up till now 328 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:30,320 is the only time we really saw the municipal firefighters responding 329 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:37,679 was to identified cardiac arrest calls. I did not see them responding to calls 330 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:41,840 that weren't identified as cardiac arrest. They weren't going to those 331 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,440 other calls. But you use the example more recently. You use the example of 332 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:49,440 the guy with his face down in the snow like two weeks ago and two weeks before 333 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:54,320 that and two weeks before that. That's not a cardiac call. 334 00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:58,799 » But historically that's again it's been pointed out you can't write a policy 335 00:25:55,919 --> 00:26:06,400 that covers every call. Now clearly in that situation the the circumstances 336 00:26:02,159 --> 00:26:11,279 warranted a response but that was the very you know that was very clear from 337 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:16,000 the circumstances of that with the call being south of the station and all the 338 00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:22,720 respondents being north of the station. that made sense. But that was, you know, 339 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:30,320 that's been one isolated case which again comes back to there should be some 340 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:33,279 discretion and people making some, you know, 341 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,440 » decisions. We can't we can't mandate this thing so black and white that it's 342 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:44,159 going to occur. You're going to do this, you're not going to do that. But as a 343 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:51,600 general policy or as a general rule then I think we can say you know 344 00:26:48,159 --> 00:26:55,600 echo you know I I don't want to start getting into 345 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:59,679 carving this up into little pieces >> about well you you got to listen to 346 00:26:57,679 --> 00:27:06,240 every >> thing say is this we go we don't go or 347 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:11,760 so so long as they're they're you know being responsive to the pe to the 348 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:17,600 district people responding and they say we're good, thank you, but you can 349 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:21,600 return and they respond effectively that that's fine. Yeah. 350 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:25,679 » Yeah. Does I mean does that does that address 351 00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:29,360 some of the >> I'm just here to provide facts. 352 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,320 » I just wanted everybody to know what the facts were. 353 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:36,640 » But but I mean the facts you the facts you're proposing are we we delete the 354 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,840 Delta call on the role. I mean that's I mean 355 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,799 » well that's the >> I mean it's not it's not like you know 356 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,039 I'm just a fact it's like my proposal is we're dropping Delta calls on the 357 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:50,159 policy. >> No my proposal if I were in charge and 358 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,600 making all the rules which I'm not. I'd say if you want to move move as far as 359 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,200 the town and then wait for further >> instruction. I don't see any I don't see 360 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,760 any benefit of stopping once you're rolling. Either you're not rolling or 361 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,799 you're rolling. When you're rolling you might as well keep going till somebody 362 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,520 turns around. And what if we're 363 00:28:03,679 --> 00:28:08,720 » talking about two quarts two quarts of diesel 364 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:12,559 » Excuse me. I didn't hear >> Yeah. 365 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:16,159 » I mean, >> you know, and I know that I I've heard 366 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,120 you have them staged over here on certain calls too, like smoke alarms and 367 00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:22,799 stuff like that. >> Yeah. I'm not bring I'm not going to 368 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:28,720 bring that resource that's currently stationed on the east side of town all 369 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:32,399 the way to a to the vicorage for a false line. 370 00:28:29,679 --> 00:28:36,640 I want to stage them somewhere that if they're they're more ava they're 371 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,960 available but not only to me they're available to the 372 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:45,840 » and those are those are calls that you have experience with 373 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:50,480 those specific buildings those same fire alarm systems going off. So you're not 374 00:28:48,159 --> 00:28:55,279 going into it blind. It's not a well is it really a cardiac arrest or is it you 375 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:59,679 know is it an anxiety attack or what it is. It's it's a known you've been there 376 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,360 three times in the last two weeks, right? 377 00:28:59,919 --> 00:29:04,720 » But but guys, we've switched to a different topic and the fire calls, 378 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:07,279 they're rolling. So now you're talking about do you want to stage them 379 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,760 somewhere or do something else? It's not a policy question. They're rolling 380 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:16,960 » that that's I'm just I'm just saying on the on the 381 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:20,880 medical call, I I would simply prefer that 382 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:25,039 have them roll and encourage the first responders once they've gone on scene 383 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,600 and verified what they have whether whether they can use the help or not. 384 00:29:26,399 --> 00:29:29,440 They can't use them. Just simply call them on the radio and say we're all set. 385 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:34,159 You can >> We've been doing this for years now on 386 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,919 the fire side and we often cancel them. It's no big deal. They're on their way. 387 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,600 It's a known quantity. If we need them, we need them. If we don't, we turn 388 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,640 around. >> And I don't have a problem with if if 389 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:48,320 Harps wants to drop Deltas. I at least on that side of town, I don't have a 390 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,840 problem with that. I haven't examined the deltas to come to the same 391 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:57,679 conclusion you have yet. We haven't been doing it long enough. Um It's great fun 392 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:03,279 to help those consumers. >> Uh what I may do is I may ask our EMS 393 00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:08,880 providers when they go on a delta to give me feedback on whether or not and 394 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:14,399 then see because the reality is if we have 20 deltas over x period of time and 395 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:18,559 it turned out three times they were useful, I would probably keep them 396 00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:22,559 coming at least for Kundy's harbor because of the response time even for 397 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:29,279 Moors Island to get there. There are differences. I 398 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:35,120 » hope has the luxury of having a schedule with a lot of EMTs that have 399 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:38,720 committed to commit to certain times. And I know you run your department 400 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:44,399 differently, but personal is a little bit of a different animal because I know 401 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:49,679 I've got definitely an EMT on standby every slot of the week and then I've got 402 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:53,600 two more who the Delta call say that they'll jump in. So, We have a pretty 403 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,080 deep bench. >> Yeah. 404 00:30:54,399 --> 00:30:59,200 » That doesn't match the circumstance we just spent the last two weeks 405 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,360 discussing, which is you're not you don't have one somebody on the schedule 406 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:06,960 and you don't have anybody else. >> That's what we've just been discussing. 407 00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:11,200 That's why we revised the policy to deal with that situation. So that is 408 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,640 standardized that keep it standard that description of the situation is in 409 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:19,360 direct conflict with the description given on the policy revision. Well, but 410 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,440 but to be fair though, can if I could correct to be fair, they have a 411 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:27,279 schedule, but what I heard Chief Mercier clearly say that they've identified 412 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,679 certain slots won't be full and they're not and they know that ahead of time so 413 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,159 that they're going to >> I'm 100% supportive of that whole 414 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:39,440 situation. But the reason you have that situation is that chief pers pointed out 415 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,720 like okay we're trying to contain it but we also know we don't have any backup 416 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:47,600 during that period which is in direct conflict with and in every call we know 417 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:51,279 we got at least two more coming. >> It just doesn't match that that the two 418 00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:55,760 things do not match together. >> Just look look 419 00:31:53,440 --> 00:32:00,159 » this may be my doing. I came from an environment where we had 420 00:31:57,919 --> 00:32:04,640 every shift covered seven days a week, 24 hours a day, which 421 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,720 is a very different environment than what Ben has. 422 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:14,240 We were looking at a situation due to illness and retirements that for the 423 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:18,799 first time in a long time, we might have one or two shifts where no one was 424 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:22,480 committed. That is frightening to me. >> But I've realized now 425 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,480 » I say what I said before. I'm fully supportive of that problem. And what 426 00:32:24,399 --> 00:32:28,399 sending improved as you got them. >> Let me finish. 427 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,240 » Yeah, >> I have realized that what I was worried 428 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:36,960 about is what Ben lives with every damn day of the week. 429 00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:42,159 » And I'm now very sympathetic to Ben. I'm more realistic that even though I might 430 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:47,600 have a six-hour gap on Saturdays which what we have that'll be fine. We will 431 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:51,600 live to fight another day and it's okay. And I'm not going to panic over that. So 432 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,440 if you want to blame anybody for >> I'm not blaming anything. I'm just 433 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:59,120 trying to understand the situation. So, >> it's just that for the first time in our 434 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:04,159 experience at Harvard, we were walking in Ben's shoes for a little bit 435 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,399 » and we realize how difficult that is. >> Okay. 436 00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:08,960 » You do it long enough and you don't even notice. 437 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,240 » Well, I'm just telling you I have more respect 438 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:16,640 for what you have to deal with after having fredded over this over this 439 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,240 situation for some time. >> So, I have great respect for what you 440 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,720 deal with every day. But that's where this comes from. 441 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:28,960 I'm just trying to understand the situation. So, I'm going to reiterate it 442 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:33,360 in my own little brain, right? We have a gap where Harshel neck can't have will 443 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:39,600 not necessarily know that they have an EMT coming. So, we are asking the town 444 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:43,600 staff in that known gap to go and we're saying that's what we've said that's 445 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,159 changed the policy to say. So, I presume that is still standing as what we're 446 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,440 going to do. I have absolutely that's great if you 447 00:33:50,399 --> 00:33:53,919 want to do that >> and we are 448 00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:58,080 » well we already we already said we're going to is it not needed 449 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:02,720 » it's working right when they they'll notify the town staff when there is that 450 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,480 gap and we've got this your equipment where it's working 451 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:11,119 » and I assume that this is beneficial to you that when no EMT responds that the 452 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:15,399 town will respond to you because you probably have more exposure than we do. 453 00:34:15,919 --> 00:34:23,040 Yeah, it comes and goes, es and flows. >> Uh, we've got a fair number of EMTs on 454 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:27,520 the roster now, but the >> the question is, 455 00:34:25,359 --> 00:34:32,480 » uh, I've got I've got one person that's going out with I think wrist surgery. 456 00:34:29,839 --> 00:34:36,639 I've got another person that's uh left town yesterday, isn't going to be back 457 00:34:33,919 --> 00:34:40,639 till the 16th or whatever, you know, and when you have that number 458 00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:46,240 of people on the roster, you need a lot of people to cover up, right, the same 459 00:34:43,359 --> 00:34:51,839 amount of time. But the real the reality is that's that's a day to you know or a 460 00:34:49,359 --> 00:34:59,119 week toeek thing where people are going to take vacation time. People are and so 461 00:34:56,079 --> 00:35:03,839 far I have never been able to get the volunteers to sign up for shifts. 462 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,720 » So the fact that you have done that to me is like 463 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:11,680 but it's just never something as many times we tried it over the years doesn't 464 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:15,119 work. We're lucky and we appreciate that. But we also have to be respectful 465 00:35:13,359 --> 00:35:18,800 what you have to deal with on a daily basis because you never know who's gonna 466 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,560 » for 30 years. It's not like it just happened. 467 00:35:19,359 --> 00:35:27,520 » Yeah. >> So, um then so I'll circle back around. 468 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:32,880 David, do you want to drop Deltas from hops neck response? 469 00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:36,880 » Is that what you want to have done? >> What I'm saying is I don't think it adds 470 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,680 value. as to whether you want to continue to do that. That's a question 471 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,760 for the chiefs because you're putting your resources at risk because you're 472 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:48,160 moving fire engines around. All I'm saying is that the data doesn't support 473 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:53,760 that that's going to achieve anything. >> I'm willing to suspend the data the the 474 00:35:50,880 --> 00:36:01,040 Delta calls and >> on both sides Dave for or at both 475 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:04,560 stations on meaning if we're Bailey and that 476 00:36:03,359 --> 00:36:08,800 » why wouldn't we just suspend them totally? I don't think that's our 477 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,640 » I'm just like, okay, let's just cancel let's just cancel the town guys rolling 478 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,040 as a matter of policy on Delta. >> So much easier. 479 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:19,119 » No real problem with that. >> And if I show up at a Delta call and it 480 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,320 turns out to be a serious am >> I'll be on the radio right away asking 481 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:27,920 for mutual aid. >> So why don't we do this because it 482 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:32,480 sounds like um sounds like we've you need guidance. You've been loud and 483 00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:37,520 clear and it's our job to help provide the guidance. I have no problem with 484 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:43,200 suspending deltas, right? I'm going to ask my EMS providers when they go on a 485 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:48,560 delta level call to give me feedback and we'll see if including if we need to 486 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:52,960 at least on that side of town if we re need to go back to deltas or not. It 487 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,160 still doesn't take away from if we don't have an EMS provider respond. That's 488 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,320 already part of the policy. We're already going to respond on the call. If 489 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:04,320 it's an echo, we we're leaving echoes in there. If they're asked for help, 490 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:09,440 they're going to respond. We're just talking about suspending delta and and 491 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,480 » my side of town. I'll ask my providers for feedback on deltas if there was a 492 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,560 delta that they could have used and it made a difference to wait for the delay 493 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:20,640 and all that and we'll see what we can come up with. It's probably going to be 494 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,880 anecdotal. I don't want to add any more fields to the EMS report. 495 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:29,200 » Oh my god, there's too many. There's too many. 496 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:34,960 » So many. So it can be a crisis that we have missed. I I will I will say this. 497 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:43,119 Um EMD, which is a nationwide thing, EMD is a 498 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:49,280 very conservative program. So that it if it could be read as serious or 499 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:53,680 severely serious or moderately serious, EMD automatically classifies it the 500 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,200 higher the higher level of seriousness when it 501 00:37:55,599 --> 00:38:00,720 comes to >> determining codes. 502 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,599 » And it's telephone. see something who then reports it to somebody in the phone 503 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:08,000 who then reports it and it gets distorted. 504 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:12,000 EMD is relatively unreliable. I get that. 505 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:15,920 » Um I don't know if I >> I'm not willing to go that far, but it's 506 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:19,760 statutoily required. So there we go. We don't care. 507 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:25,520 » Whatever it is, we don't care. >> It's significantly more reliable to what 508 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:30,800 we had before EMD. Fine. I'm just saying I'm often surprised when I write on as 509 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:35,680 I'm sure you are. >> Yeah. That joke about two blind people 510 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:40,320 describing something. >> Uh all right. 511 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,760 Are we good with that? So do do we need to take official action on that or we 512 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,760 just got consensus that we're just going to suspend 513 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:50,400 » suspend the date? >> Okay. 514 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:55,040 » And you know we'll turn them around if on on any call. I don't care what it is. 515 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,960 fires, >> make sure they understand their role is 516 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,560 to >> so that we can keep those resources 517 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:05,760 available. >> My my only request on the turning them 518 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:09,839 around is um and I say this to my folks, please don't turn them around until you 519 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:13,599 actually have verifi you're arrived on scene and verified what you have because 520 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:17,280 there's going to be nothing that puts mud on your face quicker than turning 521 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:22,240 somebody around because you think you know what you have and and in your case 522 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:27,040 you have them stage here. That's completely different. I'm talking about 523 00:39:23,839 --> 00:39:30,079 outright cancelling them, especially with the diesels because once you start 524 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,920 the diesel, you really need to run the diesel anyways. You don't want to just 525 00:39:31,839 --> 00:39:38,079 turn around and shut it off. >> So, you end up driving around anyways. 526 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:43,680 » Just have them come until you verified it and then that gives the engine time 527 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:47,680 to warm up the the exhaust and all that that we have to deal with now before 528 00:39:45,839 --> 00:39:52,240 before they turn around. And it's perfectly fine and we've all done it to 529 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:56,960 say, "All right, keep coming, but you can respond cold and we'll let you know 530 00:39:54,720 --> 00:40:02,240 or or you know, whatever." That's perfectly fine, too. But I I would just 531 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:06,880 hesitate cancelling somebody until you've actually arrive arrived and 532 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:09,119 verified what you if they're already started is what I'm 533 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,680 saying. >> Well, no, 534 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:16,160 » I was going to cancel somebody set. That would be foolish. 535 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:19,440 » I have I have no issue with that. But I do have a question. And I thought like 536 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:23,280 that happened today. Guys came in utility three and my understanding was 537 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:28,480 you were rolling in the fire truck so that you were available as a fire crew 538 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:32,240 when and turned around. So >> what what happened on discussion? 539 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:36,000 » Yeah, I I think we need to get back to rolling the I know the utilities is a 540 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,839 lot more. >> So on the first one we took utility 541 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,359 three because ins harbor that narrow road that we was going to be very hard 542 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:46,720 with the engine. That's why >> that's fine. I just didn't know what 543 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:52,079 what discussion when we got on 544 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,400 » the South D was it South Der that one there 545 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,520 » that was >> I was here for that one so I think that 546 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:02,480 was >> so to add to that though I think we need 547 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:07,200 to give the paid staff the latitude >> I I'm not objecting I just it was not 548 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:12,319 what I thought the policy said just asking what the circumstances were that 549 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:16,880 led to that decision agreeing with it objecting to it or anything I just asked 550 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,240 what it was engine three on that road was going to be a a disaster. So they 551 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,599 made a >> we had the discussion and she said it's 552 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:29,160 pretty narrow road terrible road >> and I I really didn't want to move my 553 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:29,160 gear out of the truck but I 554 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:35,680 » my my biggest concern so I think the reason we had discussed we should 555 00:41:33,839 --> 00:41:38,960 default to the engine. I'm not saying that there can't be exceptions like the 556 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:44,400 first call >> was because you're if you need to peel 557 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,160 off because there is a structure fire >> a higher level call you need to you need 558 00:41:45,839 --> 00:41:51,200 to be in >> it for that matter we don't carry a full 559 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:56,160 jump bag on the utility truck we carry an AED and we carry a stop the bleed kit 560 00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:00,720 and that's it the engine has a full jump bag it has you know 561 00:41:58,319 --> 00:42:04,079 » so and I wasn't making a big deal out of it and I don't want to pretend like I 562 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:09,119 was I was just curious what happened >> I didn't You know, I don't disagree with 563 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:13,359 anything you said and and that is that is the norm to take the engine 564 00:42:11,359 --> 00:42:16,319 » when and when they you know an example is when they came to interstate they 565 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:21,359 brought the pickup truck >> because Sean spoke to me and said we 566 00:42:19,119 --> 00:42:27,520 know when we get here that we have an engine in our station that's only 567 00:42:23,839 --> 00:42:33,680 » a mile or so away. So it it wasn't that didn't diminish by coming over here. It 568 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:37,760 didn't diminish their capability because they weren't going to have to go back to 569 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:41,119 OBI to get an engine. They had one a mile away from them. So, 570 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,440 » I have no problem with that explanation. >> That that I'm 100% okay with that. You 571 00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:49,520 know, if you're coming over in the pickup truck because you think, you 572 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:55,599 know, my engine's sitting there waiting for you, that's fine. You know, cuz 573 00:42:52,960 --> 00:43:00,720 you're not being displaced. I don't want you going somewhere in a pickup truck 574 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,200 when there is no engine available for you to respond to. 575 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:06,960 » Probably should >> I agree. 576 00:43:03,839 --> 00:43:11,280 » Probably should grab the jump bag off of the engine though if you're going to 577 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:15,040 take the utility truck. So like that that call that I asked them to 578 00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:19,440 take engine three because they dispatched rescue 5 to Harps neck that 579 00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:22,640 they took the engine on that one. But if they had had the utility truck for some 580 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:26,800 reason, especially if you're making initial patient contact and not I I I 581 00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:30,319 get it. You get an extra five or five five minutes of response if you take the 582 00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:34,960 pickup truck or more depending on where you're going. For sure. 583 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:38,400 » Okay. All right. A beneficial response. >> Are we good? Are we good on that topic? 584 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,119 » I hope so. >> All right. 585 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:48,480 » Okay. We're ready to quit now. >> Uh we've got 15 minutes left. So, um 586 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,760 » yeah, I still would like to talk to you though. And you don't have to wait. 587 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:56,240 » You can do it over the phone. Um you give me a call. Um 588 00:43:54,319 --> 00:44:00,319 the did you have an opportunity to get some 589 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:03,599 information back from Kennabport you'd like to share? 590 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:08,400 » I'll start and then you can >> I was so 591 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:16,880 sure. Yes. >> So it was last week that um Frank and I 592 00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:18,079 spoke with Chief Zigga. He's in Kenny Bunkport. 593 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,800 » Zigga. >> Zigga. Zigga. Thank you. Okay. Zigga 594 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:27,520 » know him well. He actually owns property in Harpsswwell in the Pendy's Harbor 595 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:30,960 » where I grew up. His son was in our >> Okay. Well, anytime he's here, we he has 596 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:35,359 to go on calls. >> Yeah. 597 00:44:31,839 --> 00:44:40,640 » So, he needs to join in Portland. So, he was a colleague of Chief Wallace. He 598 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:45,200 lives in Scarboro, but he is the fire chief in Kenny Bun Court, and he just 599 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:50,960 started in May, so he's kind of new to the system that they have. Um he said 600 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:56,880 that based on the knowledge he had received that Kenny Bunkport 601 00:44:54,079 --> 00:45:03,599 started talking about transitioning to or merging their nonprofit entities in 602 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:10,079 the 2002 time frame and it didn't actually go to a vote until 2005. 603 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:14,560 At that time Nathan Poor who's currently the town manager in Falmouth was the 604 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:20,720 Kenny Bunkport town manager. So, we have a phone call set up with him tomorrow to 605 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:23,520 get his, you know, input on how that merger, that's kind of the word they 606 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,040 were using. >> Yeah. 607 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:30,640 » How that kind of came to be. Um, did they hire a consultant? Did they have a 608 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:35,680 report issued? So, we're going to have that conversation tomorrow. But just to 609 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:43,359 talk a little bit about the current system in Kenny Bunkport, they actually 610 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:49,359 only have two full-time paid staff. the chief and he works four days a week and 611 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:56,400 then they have a what do they call a community risk reduction person 612 00:45:52,400 --> 00:46:02,160 full-time working Tuesday to Friday they have what is considered an on call 613 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,160 system is that the term that he used yeah on call 614 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,440 » means they get paid for the hours they receive 615 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:10,480 » and so they have these I don't know if I should use the term district because I 616 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:15,599 think he said they had one fire district but they have these different locations 617 00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:21,440 where different historically these departments have existed are these 618 00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:27,119 nonprofit entities and so the they're call members he said he had about 25 619 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:32,880 active call members but that is their system that they use they do not he 620 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:36,800 doesn't cover EMS that's a different organization as a separate entity that 621 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,400 does EMS so >> is the on call people scheduled so you 622 00:46:38,319 --> 00:46:44,960 know they're on call >> um that was a question I I don't know 623 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:48,480 that we asked him >> basically 624 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,960 » got a pool of 30 and you don't know whether any of them 625 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,480 » 25ish I think but >> I think it was like 626 00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:57,839 » he had more but >> on the roster 627 00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:00,160 » but then the active group was much smaller 628 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:05,680 » sounds familiar >> yeah we know all about that one 629 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:11,119 » we got lots of people on the roster >> so the EMS is a separate nonprofit that 630 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,480 rents space from the town and they apparently have all pdeiums, but we 631 00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:22,079 didn't spend a lot of time talking about the EMS system. They have a fund in 632 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:27,440 county bunk. It was based on someone their estate and that is called the 633 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:32,319 kitridge fund and it funds most of the the large pieces of equipment that Kenny 634 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,599 Bunport has to buy. So >> apparatus. 635 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:40,640 » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They described that when they we interviewed him for the 636 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:45,119 municipal program. They described that process 637 00:47:41,599 --> 00:47:47,119 » of how there was a >> good 638 00:47:45,359 --> 00:47:49,839 » historical donor. >> That's good. 639 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:54,560 » Sounds good. >> So they have the village station which 640 00:47:52,800 --> 00:48:01,280 is where the fire chief is and the compliance person. They have a Wildwood 641 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:07,119 station, Goose Rocks and Cape Corpus. He said they recently acquired Cape Corpus. 642 00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:12,079 So they merged in terms of operations, but there was still, you know, entities 643 00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,480 that own certain property. So I think that's taken time over the years to deal 644 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,680 with. >> This is a glimpse into the future. 645 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,480 » It sounds very familiar, doesn't it? >> Well, the the the volunteer fire 646 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,480 companies, didn't they essentially become auxiliaries? 647 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:29,920 » I think we didn't really he he wasn't there then, so he doesn't have all of 648 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:34,319 that history. I think we're going to get more of that tomorrow from Nathan for 649 00:48:32,559 --> 00:48:38,559 » some of the companies, 650 00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:42,880 the corporations that own the building still like one of them still owns the 651 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:46,880 building, rents it to the >> I think that's goose rocks. 652 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:52,319 » Goose rocks and one of them gave it to them. Different stages consolidation 653 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:57,280 » and that happened in South Portland as well when South Portland had a volunteer 654 00:48:54,559 --> 00:49:01,599 company station that they manned for years and then eventually 655 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:07,839 » But you didn't say each individual company they took you kind of identity 656 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:12,160 for their for their district or their fire department 657 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,960 » to buy stuff for that. >> Yeah. Special stuff they want like if 658 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:19,680 they wanted a Lucas device that wasn't in their normal kit or something 659 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:23,839 » or a pole. I don't know. You're just >> I want one of those polls. 660 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,559 » Yeah, we have a >> He did say they relied heavily on their 661 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:34,079 mutual aid partners Kenny Bunk or Rundle and Bitterford. And he did say that, you 662 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,359 know, they're starting to look at how long their model is going to work 663 00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:40,240 because it's >> Did they tell you how many people they 664 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:44,640 try? I mean, when they have a a fire, how many people they try and call? 665 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:47,839 » So, I think they they get those three departments. 666 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:53,839 » Yeah. No, >> I think he had like he had like he said 667 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:59,280 he had a core of 198 that was the big difference between us. 668 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:04,240 We just don't have people. He's got some people still active. 669 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:08,240 » So they didn't get into So if they get call, they didn't tell you like how they 670 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:12,480 get paid. Do they get paid on call or? >> We didn't get into that. I mean, I think 671 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:17,760 it was interesting for us to know what their model was. And it is this on call 672 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:23,040 model. They don't have eight full-time employees. They have two. Um, and they 673 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:25,280 do pay these on call people, but we didn't really get into the structure of 674 00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:29,119 how >> generally in the fire service, the 675 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:33,359 difference between a volunteer and an on call firefighters, they get paid for the 676 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,839 on calls get paid for their hours. >> We know they get paid, but we didn't get 677 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,040 into what the structure. >> So, they get paid what, like four hours 678 00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:41,680 if they get a call or >> it depends on the department. 679 00:50:40,559 --> 00:50:44,480 » Okay. >> They may have a minimum if you turn out 680 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,280 you're going to get paid for hours. They may just say a straight number of hours 681 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,880 that you work. That doesn't mean they're necessarily 682 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,280 getting paid to set it home. >> They're not get like call 683 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:57,680 » the tones go off, >> right? 684 00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:03,200 » No. When I was on the call department in Brunswick, you got paid per hour, the 685 00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:06,240 hour that you were actually engaged. >> Yeah. 686 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:13,119 » But you you also got paid to attend training and they had scheduled training 687 00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:18,960 once a month. So you you accumulated at least a couple hours right a month pay 688 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:25,760 by attending training but other than that there was no uh minimum call out 689 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,960 pay. You got paid for the hours that you actually worked. 690 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:33,280 » You so you didn't get called to like back in the old days when you used to 691 00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:36,319 carry like a beeper. You're on call and like when your beeper went on and you 692 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:40,559 had to go in like when your call goes off. You don't get paid like something 693 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,160 an hour just to hang out. >> No standby time. 694 00:51:41,839 --> 00:51:43,040 » Okay. >> No. 695 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,440 » Okay. >> No, you only got paid when the tone went 696 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,119 off. >> Okay. 697 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:54,720 » So, I have to say I was really surprised that Kenny Bunkport with a lot of 698 00:51:51,280 --> 00:52:00,400 businesses and a kind of village area only had two full-time paid staff. 699 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,520 » And I'm surprised too. >> That really surprised me. 700 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:07,760 » What's their call volume? Did they give you any idea? He said 350 calls per 701 00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:09,280 year. >> How much? 702 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:13,680 » That's just fire. >> That's just fire. You're right. We, you 703 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:18,559 know, his people do not. It It's a separate entity. The EMS, 704 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:21,040 » we probably do townwide. >> That's a lot of calls. 705 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:24,599 » EMS calls. >> It's one a day. 706 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:29,280 » Yeah. Yeah. I get that. But I'm just saying. 707 00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:32,240 » So it was, you know, >> we don't have two guys. 708 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:37,680 » They're not having to consider higher 300 calls a year. They want to continue 709 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:41,359 their model as long as they can is what was saying, but they're concerned that, 710 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:45,280 you know, >> they have to start looking into the 711 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:48,720 future. >> Yeah. 712 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:53,920 » So, you're going to reach out to the current town manager in Felmouth 713 00:52:51,599 --> 00:52:59,160 » and hopefully he can tell you who they use for somebody to help the 714 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:07,760 » Yeah. and he said, "Oh, oh, let me think about that. Let's talk." 715 00:53:05,839 --> 00:53:14,079 » Well, Chief Chief Everett was the chief before Chief Zigga, but I don't I I 716 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:17,520 suspect Chief Effort was hired after they started the 717 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,559 » merger. >> Merger. 718 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:24,720 » That was the word he used. Yeah. >> So, the current town manager in Felmouth 719 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,000 used to be in Kenny Bunk. >> Oh, okay. 720 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,520 » Yeah. >> He was the chief. 721 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:32,720 » Yeah. Okay. >> Well, he was the town manager for Okay. 722 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:38,720 All right. When we interviewed them at the time 723 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:44,160 for the uh administrative position, the the man was head of the water 724 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:49,440 district >> and he was the administrator. He held 725 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:55,119 the administrator's position >> and all he did at the time as a fire 726 00:53:51,839 --> 00:54:01,520 administrator was pretty much almost an HR administrative role. 727 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:08,559 And then he transitioned from the fire administrator to the PIG 728 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:13,359 when the model changed, but he was head of the water district. 729 00:54:10,319 --> 00:54:18,119 That was I I can't remember his name back then when we did it. 730 00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:18,119 » I don't remember either. 731 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:30,960 » Okay. All right. Um let's see. I see that you adopted Jonathan's proposal for 732 00:54:29,359 --> 00:54:36,920 the EMS policy >> tonight. 733 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:36,920 » It's on the select board agenda. 734 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:47,160 » I think it's I think it's perfect. >> I'm sure you do. 735 00:54:48,319 --> 00:54:52,319 » And did somebody >> Frank, you snuck in a little bit more 736 00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:57,440 than I said. >> Oh, really? That's between two. just so 737 00:54:54,960 --> 00:55:01,839 you felt good about it and owned it. >> The compromise 738 00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:06,440 was definitely a compromise. >> Okay. 739 00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:06,440 » Was a lot shorter to read, Frank. 740 00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:15,760 So, the last thing um that's open that I want to try to get because we're almost 741 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:19,920 up on our time is I would like to encourage the town to consider 742 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:22,400 » putting to the voters on the November ballot getting back into pers rather 743 00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:25,920 than >> it's too late. You can't we can't even 744 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:29,040 meet the deadline >> for November. 745 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:35,760 » Yeah. It's a 60-day. You have to have the 746 00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:40,319 article to the town in a 60-day period. We're meeting with main furs next week. 747 00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:45,599 There's a whole series of um questions you have to respond to and 748 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:51,200 they have to run their numbers through actuaries. And so we're beginning the 749 00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:54,720 process, but and they they will give when we get to a certain point, they 750 00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:59,359 will say this is the language you need to use for your vote in your community. 751 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,520 » So there's >> so have you been able to verify there at 752 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,480 July one? >> Um they said any month. 753 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,200 » Oh, any. >> Okay, that all right. That makes me a 754 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,720 little bit less concerned about it because like I said in Portland made 755 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,760 » the beginning of any month once you've followed all of these steps. 756 00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:20,400 » Okay. All right. That's what I was trying to beat. I didn't want us to get 757 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:24,079 stuck with having to wait to 2028 to get into it when these new employees are 758 00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:26,640 going to be on the books >> six months before that is what I was 759 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,760 trying to >> I fel 760 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:35,839 um the EMT gap planning is that's an 761 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:41,040 ongoing thing. There's nothing new on that. Uh I'm going to talk to Scott 762 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:44,079 after the meeting about the ambulance equipment thing. There's nothing new on 763 00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:47,359 that. the jump back thing. 764 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:50,400 » Yeah, >> budget and staff planning. Is there 765 00:56:48,799 --> 00:56:53,640 anything we need to know about that or >> I think 766 00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:05,440 so I mean just real quick um I'm going to be looking to um get authorization to 767 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:10,319 recruit a couple of additional prediums and uh as well as make some adjustments 768 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:16,079 to the existing staff classifications that we have now. as far as your but 769 00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,839 your question is asking about budgets for the 770 00:57:16,559 --> 00:57:24,960 » well I was just going down the list >> 2027 fiscal 2027 so uh this might be a 771 00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:31,119 Terry question I mean do we now have 772 00:57:27,839 --> 00:57:33,680 the BAC schedule that we're all going to have to 773 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:39,520 live by >> not yet not yet but I mean it's usually 774 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:44,480 » the request for information starts around that September time frame Yeah, I 775 00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:48,799 know. I'm well aware of that. >> I'm I'm well aware of that. I'm well 776 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:51,040 aware of the general schedule. >> I'm wondering what whether we have the 777 00:57:50,319 --> 00:57:54,400 real schedule. >> We we have not put together the official 778 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,000 schedule. >> Is this the budget? 779 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,319 » Yes. >> Yeah. 780 00:57:56,559 --> 00:58:02,640 » But I think the piece Frank's talking about so maybe we jumped ahead is doing 781 00:58:00,559 --> 00:58:07,520 something prior to >> a little something in 2026 because you 782 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,040 can explain why. >> That's a different. 783 00:58:08,799 --> 00:58:16,160 » Yeah. Because we still haven't I mean you're doing the administrative position 784 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,599 but nobody was hired to backfill the slot you were 785 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,599 » exactly >> which was your slot a part-timer or was 786 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:24,400 it a pdeium when you moved over to the administrative position? 787 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:28,400 » I'm sorry say that ask your question. >> Was the position you moved in to 788 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,319 administrator from was that part-time or pdeium? 789 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,040 » I was p >> okay 790 00:58:31,359 --> 00:58:38,160 » and so you need two pdeiums then right or 791 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:40,160 one parttime one or the other. So, we've been down one 792 00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:47,520 » pretty >> um and we've got So, because we've been 793 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:52,880 down one and I I actually put in kind of a policy for no no overtime. So, people 794 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:56,720 haven't been able to use their leave that they wanted to be able to use. So 795 00:58:54,400 --> 00:59:01,760 people got some news that that they need to use as well as um 796 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:07,839 um being able to look at the whole system wise as far as 797 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:12,319 our core group of people that are working and then a few people that not 798 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:15,599 as many. Yeah, >> it look 799 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:20,319 I've come to the conclusion we we need I'm looking at getting two pdeiums and 800 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:25,280 then make some adjustments on because we've got some a pdeium and a part-time 801 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,200 really that are basically working full-time. 802 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:31,599 » Yeah, they are. >> So that we're looking to make some 803 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:36,319 adjustments there to the staff that we have now. 804 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:39,599 » But so you'd rather hire two PDMs rather than bump the people up that are 805 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,760 basically doing part-time and fulltime work. No, I 806 00:59:41,359 --> 00:59:47,359 » both. >> I'm I'm doing both without Yeah, I'm not 807 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:50,400 trying to broadcast all personnel issues out here, but yes, I'm going to be doing 808 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:56,720 both. >> Now, were we paying overtime, Christie, 809 00:59:52,720 --> 01:00:00,640 when uh Mike was hiring for the >> for the storm coverages and stuff like 810 00:59:59,839 --> 01:00:04,559 that? >> Yeah. Yeah. 811 01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:06,720 » But you're advocating no overtime. >> So, that's that's that's what I've been 812 01:00:06,319 --> 01:00:11,599 doing >> just during this period. So I think 813 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:16,079 maybe just step back a little bit before Frank was brought on as interim and you 814 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:21,680 know there were some discussions about how we might need some additional help 815 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:25,680 even with our current system and then you know Mike obviously no longer here 816 01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:30,720 and then Frank comes on board and we said Frank take time see how this system 817 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:35,920 operates and then make a recommendation about what you think for staffing. So 818 01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:42,400 within this current model, within this current fiscal year, he's he asked his 819 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:46,400 people to not kind of work overtime for a period of time and he was evaluating 820 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:50,160 and now he's saying they need to take vacation. They have time off. We need 821 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:53,040 more people to cover these shifts. >> Yeah, 822 01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:57,440 » we're down a person anyway since Mike's no longer with us. So 823 01:00:55,040 --> 01:01:00,960 » we need to add a couple people to our none of this controversial to make. 824 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,000 Okay, where are you going to find the money? We have these people because of 825 01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:07,760 no >> Yeah. because of no overtime other 826 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:11,599 people have stepped up you and Mike >> and worked more hours. 827 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:16,720 » So it would just balance and bringing people on to avoid overtime cost. The 828 01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:21,599 balance there's always a balance between paying overtime or hiring additional 829 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:24,160 personnel and that's the equation you're looking at. 830 01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:28,000 » Exactly. And home life as well. >> Right. Sometimes it's more 831 01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:32,000 » efficient just to bring somebody on board. But we were definitely paying 832 01:01:29,839 --> 01:01:36,319 some overtime when Mike was not around because people were stepping up to help 833 01:01:33,839 --> 01:01:39,359 in so many different ways. So, you know, there are always exceptions. 834 01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:44,520 » Now, by overtime, you're strictly talking about over 40 hours. You're not 835 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,520 talking about predominant 836 01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:58,400 Chinese over all the time. >> Yeah. 837 01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:01,839 » And as well as Well, I mean, 838 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:07,119 » but we have a really committed, dedicated group of people 839 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:12,079 » and I think what Frank is proposing rewards perhaps some people that have 840 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:16,319 really stepped up and taken on more hours and, you know, and then we want 841 01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:20,079 people to be able to take their time off, their vacation time, you know, 842 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:24,880 their family time. >> Yeah. I don't know how you tell somebody 843 01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:28,480 that they can't take their own time off in their time. I can't 844 01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:31,440 say that >> it was the overtime piece. 845 01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,480 » No, we didn't. They didn't they didn't say that. I never said they couldn't 846 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,040 take their leave. Yeah. >> But 847 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,240 » they took it more to heart that they didn't want to create overtime. That's 848 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,400 why they weren't taking leave. So, >> yeah. 849 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:47,359 » Well, I appreciate you taking care of that. 850 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:53,200 » Um, as far as the 27 budget though, is there any any thing to report or are we 851 01:02:50,799 --> 01:02:58,240 are we good? You ready for BAC on what we had recommended at the last meeting? 852 01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:03,280 How can you even expect that? We got a month to go. 853 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:10,079 » I've been I've been working on how many hours and then I'm working on 854 01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:15,520 I mean I mean I can show you my I've got a lot of work product. I don't have 855 01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:20,640 anything as far as uh anything official to be able to I 856 01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:25,359 wouldn't want to pass it out as official budget documents, but I've got a lot of 857 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:28,480 work work product that we can Well, Frank, I mean, you're going to get the 858 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:32,240 schedule, so pretty soon we'll know what the schedule is. 859 01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:34,319 » I think we would bring a draft committee before 860 01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:37,760 » schedule is going to be faster than the rest of us get sucked into this vortex. 861 01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:42,799 » Yeah. >> And when you you you know, you got it 862 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:45,119 sort of in the near final shape, we should take a look at it and see what we 863 01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:50,880 got going. >> I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, 864 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:55,599 it's it's really not going to salary wise, it's going to be pretty 865 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,839 pretty easy to the hours. >> Yeah. 866 01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:00,000 » How much how much we're paying by hour. The benefit part will be a little 867 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,720 different because the main >> parasite. 868 01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:06,880 » No, I just wanted to make sure that you're you're on target to make sure 869 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:15,680 that based on the feedback we've given you that town's on target for 870 01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:19,280 » numbers back that we believe meet your recommendation and see if you're 871 01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:24,640 comfortable with that. So basically, but you you you gave us 872 01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,680 you wanted 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 873 01:04:25,359 --> 01:04:30,000 » right? >> So those those are the numbers. Yeah. 874 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:35,119 » Now it's up to us to figure out is how many full-time, how many PDM, what's the 875 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:39,280 combination of the two, all that stuff. >> But there's some other basic assumptions 876 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:42,799 that I think realistically you got to put on the table eventually to get to 877 01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,480 the numbers like, okay, when are we going to start? 878 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,839 » Yeah, starting. >> Well, we made that recommendation last. 879 01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:50,880 I know I understand, you know, but I mean in terms of the budget that's 880 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,119 that's really the >> you know 881 01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:56,000 » some of the stuff is just what's your set of assumptions. 882 01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:58,400 » Although I would hope that we be able to ramp up soon. 883 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:01,400 » No, no, no. Everybody agreed with that. >> Yeah. 884 01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:05,839 » Okay. Um >> and then on fiscal 27, I'm just going to 885 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:10,400 say this because the building committee met earlier, which is, you know, the 886 01:05:07,839 --> 01:05:13,119 other key one is like, okay, what's the date? 887 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:17,119 » We heard there's a flexible schedule today. 888 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:22,240 » I know. What is it? It was potentially groundbreaking March of 2027 with a 12 889 01:05:20,559 --> 01:05:25,680 month construction period. >> Okay. So, we're not going to have any 890 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:28,960 building operating building operating costs. 891 01:05:26,319 --> 01:05:31,200 » No, they're saying March. Just hoping they can speed it up. 892 01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,079 » Correct. >> Okay. There we go. 893 01:05:32,559 --> 01:05:38,839 » Yeah. >> Or are we next meeting on the 24? 894 01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:50,480 That would be that. So >> yes. Okay. Uh this will be the same 895 01:05:48,079 --> 01:05:54,640 court tomorrow where we do for city first on our meeting afterward. 896 01:05:52,960 --> 01:06:00,559 » Yeah. Building committee at three fire and rescue. 897 01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:05,520 » Sorry. So can I can I ask a little minor discussion of that slightly? 898 01:06:02,559 --> 01:06:09,119 » I I said yes to that but it's going to be more difficult than 899 01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:14,240 I expected. So, I don't know if it's possible to 900 01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:19,599 have I mean, I'll live with the four. If it's possible for Aaron to know, are 901 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:24,880 there some times when he could do one and the rest of the committee could do 902 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:30,079 one so I could have the four back? one what we talking about 903 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:32,880 » one no 1 p.m. So back to could we >> alternate or periodically or do 904 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:40,160 something >> or do we do we flip we'll do fire and 905 01:06:36,559 --> 01:06:44,319 rescue at three and do the building I'm just saying I'm going to I I think 906 01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:48,319 you you might have traded Aaron not making it at one for me not making it at 907 01:06:46,559 --> 01:06:52,799 four. Now, that might be a good deal and you might want to take it, 908 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:57,440 » but it's a committee decision, >> but I don't know if Erin has any 909 01:06:54,720 --> 01:07:00,240 capability of knowing whether the one could work. 910 01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:04,720 » No, it just depends what the office schedules me and we're busy. 911 01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:09,200 » That's fine. So, 24th is at 4. >> I I don't It makes no difference to me. 912 01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:13,280 » Well, could we like Ben suggested we do it at We do this one at three and the 913 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,520 building at 4. Would that help, Jonathan? 914 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:19,599 » That helps me for sure, but I don't know. if that works for all the rest of 915 01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,240 the you know this is a >> that's fine with me 916 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:25,200 » a lot of moving parts in this >> it's two hours for me one way the other 917 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,400 so that's >> it doesn't matter to me either so if we 918 01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:31,760 want to do it at three that's fine >> I mean I think we have to check with 919 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:35,119 port city and right >> can somebody just check with the rest of 920 01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:39,760 the guys and see if that works >> I'll pencil it in at four and I'll plan 921 01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:43,119 to be here but if I get some relief on it will help me 922 01:07:41,039 --> 01:07:46,799 » okay I'll just put that on my >> So we're meeting at what time three 923 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:50,000 » we're going We're gonna >> pencil in at 4 like we expect, 924 01:07:48,799 --> 01:07:51,359 » but it may be three >> to three. 925 01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:55,200 » Okay. >> Which won't matter to you because you're 926 01:07:53,440 --> 01:08:00,319 here anyways. You're going to be here from 3:00 to 5:00 no matter what. 927 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,400 » I think we got to make sure. Right, Ryan? 928 01:08:01,039 --> 01:08:07,680 » Right. That's what I'm saying. Reports that need to see if it's possible. Yeah, 929 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:11,039 » I'm I'm on the 24th. I'm putting in four, 930 01:08:09,039 --> 01:08:12,640 » but longer term it would be helpful if I get 931 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:15,599 » We'll see what happens. Hopefully, we can move it. 932 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:18,319 » Okay. for you. That's the benefit. >> Yeah, I don't think we have I mean, we 933 01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:21,920 still have open items, but we have nothing to report on the remainder of 934 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,759 the open items unless somebody has new business. 935 01:08:22,239 --> 01:08:28,239 » 510. >> What's that? 936 01:08:24,719 --> 01:08:32,960 » It's 510. Mr. Chairman, co-chairman. >> Are we good to adjourn? 937 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:38,880 » I'm all set. I was good. 10 minutes. >> All right. Thank you. 938 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,880 » Thank you all. I think we did good.