[0:01] All right. Good afternoon. This is the
September 10th meeting of the Fire and
[0:06] Rescue Planning Committee. And uh what
we I've been trying to do is first of
[0:11] all take up the minutes from the last
meeting. If everybody's had a chance to
[0:15] read them and have any questions on the
minutes
[0:20] or are we good to Oh, good. Somebody can
make a motion to adopt the minutes.
[0:27] Nelson moves.
We can come wrestle over who seconds it
[0:32] or we can call it Chief Mercier. Chief
Mercier seconds it. All in favor?
[0:36] » I.
>> Any opposed? Thank you.
[0:38] » I I did make one change. I spelled the
name wrong.
[0:42] » Oh. Oh yeah.
>> Nons substantive.
[0:46] » Um
yeah, just in the future I guess the
[0:51] only thing is under next meeting
details. It says adjourned at 2:35. I'm
[0:56] assuming that was the current meeting,
not the next meeting at the end of the
[0:59] just the way it was formatted in
previously.
[1:02] » We will adjourn at 2:35.
>> I think it was uh
[1:10] » All right. Um so we have a guest that
would like to speak to us and I think
[1:15] rather than beat around the bush, we
just let this happen.
[1:24] » I'm sorry.
[1:27] I wanted to just
[1:32] reconve
[1:59] The reason is fire alarms
calls.
[2:08] If you look statistically
at what has happened, I'm just going to
[2:12] talk about harps because I don't have
access to
[2:16] we've had 137 calls between January 1st
and August 31st at harps neck. Of those
[2:24] 42 were dealt in it. 42.
Now the vast majority of those are
[2:30] shortness of breath calls or loss of
consciousness calls. They're not MI or
[2:36] heart attack calls or cardiac arrest
calls. In fact, we had three cardiac
[2:41] arrest calls and three calls that were
described as MIS, but they all turned
[2:45] out not to be MIS when we arrived on
scene.
[2:48] So what's really happening is that in
our calls we're not spending a lot of
[2:55] time at scene. We're getting there
because the nature of these calls we are
[3:00] typically moving the patient fairly
quickly towards the hospital. And the
[3:05] idea that somebody can come from OBI and
render value to us is probably
[3:13] not supported by the facts. were gone by
the time that somebody from OBI could
[3:20] come or there really is no need for
somebody at OBI because it's not a
[3:25] cardiac arrest. It's not an MI. It's a
more basic call that can be handled
[3:30] pretty easily.
So what I'm telling you is I I
[3:36] understand the belief that these calls
all involve cardiac arrests or MIS and
[3:43] that value can be provided by sending
more bodies to the scene. But that's not
[3:48] what the data shows. The data shows that
the vast majority of these calls are
[3:52] pretty routine calls where we're moving
the patient fairly quickly from the
[3:56] scene and there is no opportunity for
additional people to arrive on scene and
[4:01] render care. Now, at Harpsswell Neck, it
may be a little different from your
[4:05] organizations, Ben. At Harpsville Neck,
anytime we have a Delta Echo, we expect
[4:09] more than one EMT to arrive on scene.
That's just our protocol. So, at harps
[4:14] neck for all of these Delta Echo calls
except for a handful that were in the
[4:18] middle of the night. When you go through
the the narratives on all these, we have
[4:23] two if not three EMTs are audiencing
from Harpell Neck in addition to the Mid
[4:29] Coast paramedics, in addition to our
drivers. So, we have a pretty full boat
[4:34] in often what is a small location
working on a patient. We're talking
[4:39] about six people uh on these Delta Echo
calls in a small scene. throwing in two
[4:44] more people
doesn't really add value unless that
[4:49] they're a higher level of care that we
can't provide which may exist in some
[4:53] situations but as I've told you the
cardiac arrest and MI calls where you
[4:59] need that higher level care simply are
the volume isn't there
[5:04] what I would suggest is
[5:09] Walgreens calling me because my
prescription is
[5:13] Uh
what I would suggest instead because I
[5:18] think you're going to have a lot of
wasted diesel as well as putting the
[5:22] community at risk because you're moving
your pdiums away from where they're
[5:26] stationed perhaps for no reason. That
the better approach would be allow the
[5:32] Mid Coast paramedic or the EMT on scene.
And by the way, I'm speaking only from
[5:37] Harpsville next standpoint. I can't tell
you what's right for you guys, but from
[5:41] a HARP next standpoint, my
recommendation would be let the mid
[5:46] coast paramedic or the EMT say we need
assistance. If you guys want to move and
[5:52] stage at the town hall, that's up to
you. If you want to stage at your
[5:57] station, that's up to you. But the
reality is in 95% of the cases, we'll be
[6:05] gone by the time you get there or at
such a low level call. she didn't need
[6:08] to come at all. So I would like you to
rethink this idea and not have an
[6:15] automated response travel to the scene
concept
[6:19] where the data doesn't support that
that's really needed.
[6:24] » So can you're you're not distinguishing
between delta and echoes.
[6:30] » Correct. I lumped them all together.
>> Okay.
[6:32] » We have 40 42 delta and echo. So echoes
have a very high prevalence of if it
[6:40] comes in with an echo,
>> right?
[6:42] » That's either respiratory or cardiac
arrest.
[6:44] » Understand?
>> That's that's not a questionable call.
[6:47] » Understand?
>> So
[6:48] » we have three echoes.
>> Okay.
[6:50] » Interstate.
>> We had a cardiac arrest at 10 Bailey.
[6:54] And by the way, I was on all three
calls.
[6:57] » 10 Bailey.
>> So you're the common denominator.
[6:59] » Yeah, I'm the one who's killing off
people. uh Tim Bailey and we hit a Rosk
[7:03] in the middle of the night off point.
Those were our three echo calls that we
[7:08] have had since the beginning of the year
in the U 10 Bailey. It was during the
[7:14] day. No one.
>> So So just so you're aware because
[7:19] this is being recorded.
>> Okay. I'm not going to mention names.
[7:22] » I I wouldn't I wouldn't even addresses.
>> Okay. All right. Three calls.
[7:28] um one south of our station, one
somewhat to the northeast of the
[7:34] station, and then the call at the very
tip of uh Ash Point.
[7:39] » Okay.
>> Uh the one to the south of the station,
[7:43] there was no effort. I I can't tell you
what day of the week it was. It was a
[7:47] weekday. Nobody from another department
responded. I was there along with three
[7:52] other EMTs, two paramedics, two
sheriffs, and three drivers. And Uh we
[7:58] worked that patient for 25 minutes. Uh
she was flatlining the whole time. It
[8:03] was in an 8 by 12 foot room. If you guys
had come, you would have been standing
[8:07] out on the porch or one of us would have
had to leave. It just there wasn't
[8:11] space. That that patient frankly I was
the first on scene. Um we had very
[8:18] limited opportunity with her. The rosque
was a rasque. It was in the middle of
[8:23] the night. PDMS could not have responded
because you got there's no at 11:00 p.m.
[8:28] at night, but we responded with three a
uh three EMTs, a paramedic, and three
[8:34] drivers. And we rosted and then
transported that patient. The third was
[8:38] interstate.
uh interstate.
[8:43] It was a difficult call, but I want I
wanted to keep in mind that we had four
[8:50] firefighters from Harold Neck, three
EMTs from Harps neck and a paramedic
[8:57] from Mid Coast before an OBI firefighter
or PDM arrived. And when the OBI
[9:04] prediums did arrive, I mean, you
remember this
[9:10] And Frank, you were there. You remember
how crowded that was?
[9:14] » I'm sorry. You remember how crowded that
was?
[9:17] » Yeah.
>> There wasn't a whole lot of room on
[9:19] that. We were working the patient in the
camera.
[9:23] » So,
that call was underway for a good 25
[9:28] minutes before
an OBI.
[9:34] So, just understand that there are
practical challenges with this idea of
[9:39] automatically sending
a predium firefighter to a location
[9:45] that's far away maybe falsely flagged as
a delta or echo. Uh
[9:52] and often we have space and time
limitations that exist in these calls.
[9:56] So just
be careful before assuming that this
[10:00] makes is going to change might.
So,
[10:07] um, and I've been thinking about the
Delta level calls because we've had a
[10:10] few that they've autoresponded on and I
don't know.
[10:16] Of course, we haven't had enough of them
to know if we're going to see positive,
[10:24] right?
But as I was saying before the meeting
[10:27] started, my intent is was to ask our
folks that if they get there and
[10:34] determine they don't need the staff to
turn them around. But the problem is one
[10:38] of the things you identified clearly is
response time.
[10:40] » Right.
>> Right. And if if you're shortanded and
[10:45] you wait till you get to the scene on a
on an echo level call before you call
[10:49] for help, you've just delayed that
decision, whatever your initial response
[10:54] time was, right? So I'm not talking
about the deltas right at the minute.
[10:57] I'm talking about I'm talking about the
echoes.
[10:59] » But if I'm a good AMT and I'm on shift,
I know who's coming to the call because
[11:04] I'm listening to my radio. I know what
bodies I've got when I climb in my car.
[11:08] I know who's coming and what what grade
they are. I know whether got a
[11:11] paramedic, how many EMTs and who's
coming. So, I have a good idea when I
[11:16] leave my house what the staffing is
going to be. Then I might hear Nelson or
[11:20] David chime in that they're coming as
well. So, it's not like we're in a
[11:24] vacuum and we have to show up on scene
and do a headcount. That's not the way
[11:27] it works. We know when we're leaving our
home what the staffing will be. So,
[11:35] my suggestion continues to be if you
want to move,
[11:40] fine.
But I would recommend you come as far as
[11:43] the town and wait for further direction
at that point. But coming all the way to
[11:48] the scene
is probably not a, you know, especially
[11:52] with an engine, it's probably not going
to help much. You have a question.
[11:57] » Um, so the Lucas device, I know that we
have a Lucas device and I believe
[12:02] Kundy's Harbor has a Lucas device on
their ambulance. I believe that you guys
[12:07] do not. Is that a correct statement?
We rely on mid coast MC2.
[12:13] » So if MC2 is not here, you don't have a
Lucas device. Is that
[12:17] » correct? In which case, we would then
call for
[12:19] » So that's why we need more people, you
know, like responding to you. If it's an
[12:24] echo, if you don't have a Lucas device
to take place of an EMT, if you're
[12:28] responding to an echo call, then you you
would use the Lucas device. But if you
[12:32] don't have a Lucas device, you need
other people. And I think it's better to
[12:37] er on the side of having too many people
than not enough people and have the
[12:43] delay that Ben just said. You know, if
you go on site and then say, "Hey, wait,
[12:48] don't call don't call anybody until I
say you're involved in a in doing
[12:53] compressions and if there are other
people there, then they could call the
[12:57] town and that you know the people that
are staged there and get them fast. But
[13:00] if they're already there, I don't
understand why you don't want additional
[13:05] help. To me, it just seems like you need
additional help. Why don't you come?
[13:10] » I think part of it what what Scott's
pointing out is if you're responding
[13:14] from your station, your 20 minute
response time is not effective.
[13:19] » It depends on where you are. I I guess
it depends on it doesn't take 20
[13:23] minutes. If you're responding from your
station,
[13:27] » your 20 minute response time is not
effective for us on our side of town.
[13:33] takes to address the issue with the
Lucas to the call that we had at
[13:38] Interstate.
>> Yeah.
[13:41] » The paramedics
were tied up on a call on your side of
[13:46] town.
So the Lucas tool wasn't available and
[13:50] they were transporting a basic level
call
[13:55] and yet they tied up the paramedic.
>> Yeah, we always do. Everybody does,
[13:59] right? Doesn't everybody
>> Can I finish please?
[14:01] » Yeah.
So on that call,
[14:05] the fly car Lucas tool was unavailable.
>> Your ambulance was transporting. Your
[14:12] Lucas tool was unavailable.
>> Yeah.
[14:14] » And the next paramedic for us arriving
came from a wool witch.
[14:19] » Yes, I remember. Yeah. So, we had a
perfect storm that by the time the
[14:26] people responded from your station, as
was pointed out, we were 25 minutes into
[14:31] the call without the life-saving
equipment we should have had.
[14:36] » So, you should just buy it.
>> Why don't you buy a Lucas?
[14:39] » Why you don't own one?
>> Just buy a Lucas device. We all the
[14:42] other ones have them.
>> That's a That's a wrong answer to the
[14:45] problem.
>> I mean, it's a Lucas thing, I think, is
[14:47] a different discussion than what we're
talking about. No, I I fully agree, but
[14:50] we're into the Lucas thing. So, I just
give you what I think should be the
[14:55] solution is is buy one. Solve this
problem.
[14:58] » You said we don't have this problem. We
got them all over the place. But the
[15:00] fact is we just give an example.
>> I've said it from the beginning. We need
[15:03] clear direction and every and I knew it
was going to be coming because as soon
[15:07] as we start responding and it's only
harmful side soon as we start
[15:11] responding, I knew it was going to we
were going to take flack.
[15:13] » Yeah.
>> And it's just a matter of time and it's
[15:16] all wants clear. clear direction of what
you want from town staff so that we can
[15:22] do what you guys want us to do so that
we can
[15:25] » Well, Muriel rolled today twice.
>> I mean, I don't know if she had anybody
[15:30] with her, but she rolled twice on any
>> I appreciate your
[15:37] think
>> and sending more people is different
[15:42] than sending equipment just and the
equipment in theory can be addressed,
[15:47] but the Lucas example doesn't mean that
you need to send pium firefighters to
[15:52] adopt the call.
>> I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the
[15:56] whole time factor. I I don't disagree
with some of that. Although I would say
[16:01] for an example, yesterday we were at the
town office and all the ambulances are
[16:06] basically out of town from other side of
Cook's Corner,
[16:10] » West Bath almost from the hospital and
we can make first patient contact,
[16:15] » right?
>> And which I thought I guess what's best
[16:18] for the patient even though it's wasn't
even I think it's an alpha call. It
[16:22] wasn't even a delta.
>> Correct.
[16:24] » Yeah, it was an alpha.
>> Again, I think some of the times that's
[16:27] prudent for somebody to make contact
with that patient. So, they're not
[16:31] waiting 15 or 20 minutes for somebody to
drive from mid coast to to make contact
[16:36] with
>> three was there at least 15 minutes
[16:39] before the
>> regardless. But that I mean that was one
[16:42] of the times when we said discretion
because
[16:47] I was here. I was at town office with
the engine when we're saying, "Well,
[16:50] it's one of those discretion things and
I guess they had toned out harbor and
[16:54] you were texted us."
>> Yeah, I texted the crew because they it
[16:57] was a rescue 5 call all the way on the
other side of town. I said, "Please
[17:00] start that way because I knew it was
going to take at least 25 minutes for
[17:05] rescue 5 to get over there."
>> And that was before we even knew what
[17:09] the call. We just knew it was an EMS
call in the address. I didn't want to
[17:12] delay patient contact for 25 30 minutes.
>> Time does matter though and I I I
[17:19] wouldn't argue that part.
>> So you rolled an engine to a patient
[17:22] that has known psychological problems
>> with the license. That's what happened
[17:28] to that.
>> Well, that's that that's okay. Why
[17:31] wouldn't that
>> No, it isn't.
[17:33] » I mean, that's not okay on that on a
protocol basis. So that that's a mistake
[17:37] in
>> Well, how would you know that? How would
[17:39] you know?
>> Alcohol. I know exactly what I'm
[17:41] supposed to be doing on an alpha call.
No lights, no siren. So, I mean, that's
[17:47] that's just the situation. Make main EMS
protocol statutory. Anything else you
[17:53] could want?
>> I've explained to our volunteers on on
[17:57] cold responses on alphas and bravos. I
don't believe I've yet had a
[18:01] conversation with Frank or the town
staff about alpha, excuse me, alphas and
[18:05] charlie. I don't think we've had that
conversation yet about town response. So
[18:10] I don't know if they responded lights
and siren or not on that call. I just
[18:15] know that
>> this room call is the volume.
[18:19] » We're not using addresses but
>> might agree with you.
[18:23] » I'm just saying Charlie call.
>> This is the one that rescue 5 got toned
[18:27] out for when rescue 3 and rescue 7 were
both at the hospital.
[18:30] » When I I saw you guys go by road and I
didn't see the lights.
[18:36] » I I didn't go with them. There was two
guys in the
[18:40] I wasn't I don't know if they used
lights or
[18:43] » I didn't assume lights or sirens.
>> I'm assuming they knew because it said
[18:46] on the radio that there was no issue
with it was just a dead whatever. It was
[18:51] the issue there wasn't a big issue with
what was happening.
[18:56] » Our thought was let's just make patient
contact so that it's not somebody's not
[19:01] waiting 20 minutes.
>> So I don't recall that there was any
[19:04] information provided about potential.
We know that. Um, did you hear that that
[19:10] Rescue 7 said it was going to the scene
and just disregard it?
[19:14] » They radioed in and said that they were
heading to the scene.
[19:17] » They were already resent 3 was in route
before rescue 7 said that they were
[19:22] going to clear and take the call.
>> Yeah.
[19:24] » So, just just to clarify this, I was on
a job at the intersection road, Mountain
[19:32] Road. I saw engine three go through, no
lights, no siren. Um, several minutes
[19:38] later, I saw rescue 7 go through with
the lights on and then they siren when
[19:42] they hit the intersection. So, that's
what I saw.
[19:45] » Okay.
>> Regardless, I I it was one of those ones
[19:50] where we No, I didn't I I did hear them
later on say something about cancelling
[19:56] I I did hear say something about
cancelling rescue 5
[19:59] » or whatever it was that they were going
to take the call,
[20:02] » but
Can I I don't mean to offend anybody,
[20:05] but I'm put my lawyer on it.
From an EMS standpoint, the only
[20:12] organizations that have authority to
make decisions about EMS care are OBI
[20:18] counties.
The town of Harpsville does not have an
[20:22] EMS license and cannot be making
decisions about how to staff calls.
[20:25] » And I believe he didn't because I think
it was
[20:28] » I just want to make sure that's clear
that town employees
[20:32] don't have the authority under manium as
rags
[20:36] » to decide whether to go to a call or
not.
[20:39] » That's correct.
>> Remember I I I told you at the very
[20:43] beginning right
>> as right not the chief of harps neck but
[20:47] the chief of the agency that was
assigned the call
[20:50] » which was I made the call and asked them
to respond.
[20:52] » I just want to make sure we agree on
that. when whenever the town staff
[20:56] responds and this this way in the town
ordinance as well they are operating
[21:00] under the agency under whose truck they
are responding on they are not because
[21:06] the town doesn't have an agency.
>> So
[21:10] I think we're getting way too deep on
that one alpha call that occurred
[21:15] yesterday. I just want to get back to
the concept of automatic response of
[21:20] Delta and Echo calls and try and
point out that the data doesn't indicate
[21:29] that there is a need for this. And when
you look at the 42 narratives, I read
[21:35] them all. There's no suggestion in any
of those Delta Echo calls that
[21:41] additional staffing would have changed
an outcome.
[21:45] And I'm happy to print them out and
redact them and let you read them and
[21:50] you can disagree. But I'm just telling
you
[21:52] » I I don't need to read your
>> okay
[21:54] » even redacted. I don't need to read your
reports. I I not going to in any in any
[21:59] form or shape or form suggest that you
are not presenting a true and accurate
[22:05] account of the data that you reviewed.
Um I I like I said uh today we had two
[22:12] calls. The staff responded on the calls
because that's what the policy was. They
[22:16] were both delta level calls. Um and It's
very hard to have a policy that reflects
[22:25] every scenario,
>> right?
[22:28] » We as a group and actually this was the
decision we had made years ago. The
[22:32] policy with Delta and Echo years ago and
we just re um we reaffirmed that last
[22:39] month. The same policy we had always had
that had fallen by the wayside. uh if
[22:44] deltas aren't necessary and the data
says they're not necessary and that's
[22:50] what Harpsack wants to do, I don't have
a problem with that. I would I would
[22:55] encourage, not my agency, I would
encourage that you continue to have them
[23:01] respond on echolle calls and then when
you get there, if you don't need them,
[23:05] cancel them because echoes you you said
you've had three of them, right?
[23:11] » This year.
>> Yeah. We had three of them this year.
[23:14] We're not talking a significant number
of calls. We're not talking adding uh a
[23:19] measurable risk to the community by
having them respond. But there is a risk
[23:23] to the patient if you don't have enough
staff and if you wait and delay
[23:28] treatment and find out you don't have
enough staff. That's my encouragement.
[23:32] » I completely agree with I completely
agree with you that staffing levels on
[23:37] these calls echo calls involve extended
onseen care. They're very different from
[23:43] all the other calls. You're working the
patient for 20 minutes to an hour on
[23:48] scene. Having more bodies can be very
valuable call.
[23:54] » And and even if you guys had a Lucas on
your truck, I've seen this. The Lucas
[23:58] does not fit every patient.
>> No, it doesn't fit everybody.
[24:01] » You you need the the backs that can do
the chest compressions that the Lucas is
[24:05] not going to fit the patient. It doesn't
happen very often, but it happened to me
[24:09] twice last year alone
>> on a number of patients that I had. So,
[24:14] » um, and again, like like we've all said,
uh, if if they're coming along, right,
[24:20] even on echolle calls, we should not be
driving four-wheel vehicles on two
[24:25] wheels, right? We should be operating
appropriately to maintain public safety.
[24:30] And if you have an EMS provider,
unnecessarily a driver, and they get
[24:34] there and they say, "This isn't a
cardiac arrest or you know, and I have
[24:39] three people and don't need any help
carrying and they want to call engine
[24:43] 3." He said, "We're all set. Thank you.
You can you can return." Nobody's going
[24:47] to be offended by that. That's the
lowhanging fruit. If you don't want to
[24:51] do deltas, I I think Obsc is perfectly
capable of deciding whether or not
[24:58] deltas fit your parameters. I I haven't
had them respond on enough deltas since
[25:03] we started this back up to know, but so
far I think I think when you look back
[25:09] at the policy,
we've had the policy in place for a long
[25:13] time. It's but what we experienced
during that period of time up till now
[25:19] is the only time we really saw the
municipal firefighters responding
[25:26] was to identified cardiac arrest calls.
I did not see them responding to calls
[25:34] that weren't identified as cardiac
arrest. They weren't going to those
[25:39] other calls. But you use the example
more recently. You use the example of
[25:43] the guy with his face down in the snow
like two weeks ago and two weeks before
[25:47] that and two weeks before that. That's
not a cardiac call.
[25:50] » But historically that's again it's been
pointed out you can't write a policy
[25:55] that covers every call. Now clearly in
that situation the the circumstances
[26:02] warranted a response but that was the
very you know that was very clear from
[26:08] the circumstances of that with the call
being south of the station and all the
[26:13] respondents being north of the station.
that made sense. But that was, you know,
[26:19] that's been one isolated case which
again comes back to there should be some
[26:25] discretion and people making some, you
know,
[26:31] » decisions. We can't we can't mandate
this thing so black and white that it's
[26:35] going to occur. You're going to do this,
you're not going to do that. But as a
[26:40] general policy or as a general rule then
I think we can say you know
[26:48] echo you know
I I don't want to start getting into
[26:53] carving this up into little pieces
>> about well you you got to listen to
[26:57] every
>> thing say is this we go we don't go or
[27:02] so so long as they're they're you know
being responsive to the pe to the
[27:08] district people responding and they say
we're good, thank you, but you can
[27:14] return and they respond effectively that
that's fine. Yeah.
[27:19] » Yeah.
Does I mean does that does that address
[27:24] some of the
>> I'm just here to provide facts.
[27:27] » I just wanted everybody to know what the
facts were.
[27:30] » But but I mean the facts you the facts
you're proposing are we we delete the
[27:34] Delta call on the role. I mean that's I
mean
[27:36] » well that's the
>> I mean it's not it's not like you know
[27:39] I'm just a fact it's like my proposal is
we're dropping Delta calls on the
[27:44] policy.
>> No my proposal if I were in charge and
[27:48] making all the rules which I'm not. I'd
say if you want to move move as far as
[27:52] the town and then wait for further
>> instruction. I don't see any I don't see
[27:55] any benefit of stopping once you're
rolling. Either you're not rolling or
[27:58] you're rolling. When you're rolling you
might as well keep going till somebody
[28:00] turns around.
And what if we're
[28:03] » talking about two quarts two quarts of
diesel
[28:07] » Excuse me. I didn't hear
>> Yeah.
[28:09] » I mean,
>> you know, and I know that I I've heard
[28:14] you have them staged over here on
certain calls too, like smoke alarms and
[28:18] stuff like that.
>> Yeah. I'm not bring I'm not going to
[28:20] bring that resource that's currently
stationed on the east side of town all
[28:25] the way to a to the vicorage for a false
line.
[28:29] I want to stage them somewhere that if
they're they're more ava they're
[28:34] available but not only to me they're
available to the
[28:38] » and those are those are
calls that you have experience with
[28:42] those specific buildings those same fire
alarm systems going off. So you're not
[28:48] going into it blind. It's not a well is
it really a cardiac arrest or is it you
[28:52] know is it an anxiety attack or what it
is. It's it's a known you've been there
[28:57] three times in the last two weeks,
right?
[28:59] » But but guys, we've switched to a
different topic and the fire calls,
[29:03] they're rolling. So now you're talking
about do you want to stage them
[29:05] somewhere or do something else? It's not
a policy question. They're rolling
[29:09] » that that's
I'm just I'm just saying on the on the
[29:13] medical call, I I would simply prefer
that
[29:19] have them roll and encourage the first
responders once they've gone on scene
[29:22] and verified what they have whether
whether they can use the help or not.
[29:26] They can't use them. Just simply call
them on the radio and say we're all set.
[29:29] You can
>> We've been doing this for years now on
[29:31] the fire side and we often cancel them.
It's no big deal. They're on their way.
[29:36] It's a known quantity. If we need them,
we need them. If we don't, we turn
[29:39] around.
>> And I don't have a problem with if if
[29:41] Harps wants to drop Deltas. I at least
on that side of town, I don't have a
[29:46] problem with that. I haven't examined
the deltas to come to the same
[29:50] conclusion you have yet. We haven't been
doing it long enough. Um It's great fun
[29:55] to help those consumers.
>> Uh what I may do is I may ask our EMS
[30:01] providers when they go on a delta to
give me feedback on whether or not and
[30:05] then see because the reality is if we
have 20 deltas over x period of time and
[30:12] it turned out three times they were
useful, I would probably keep them
[30:17] coming at least for Kundy's harbor
because of the response time even for
[30:20] Moors Island to get there. There are
differences. I
[30:25] » hope has the luxury of having
a schedule with a lot of EMTs that have
[30:32] committed to commit to certain times.
And I know you run your department
[30:36] differently, but personal is a little
bit of a different animal because I know
[30:41] I've got definitely an EMT on standby
every slot of the week and then I've got
[30:46] two more who the Delta call say that
they'll jump in. So, We have a pretty
[30:52] deep bench.
>> Yeah.
[30:54] » That doesn't match the circumstance we
just spent the last two weeks
[30:57] discussing, which is you're not you
don't have one somebody on the schedule
[31:01] and you don't have anybody else.
>> That's what we've just been discussing.
[31:04] That's why we revised the policy to deal
with that situation. So that is
[31:08] standardized that keep it standard that
description of the situation is in
[31:13] direct conflict with the description
given on the policy revision. Well, but
[31:17] but to be fair though, can if I could
correct to be fair, they have a
[31:21] schedule, but what I heard Chief Mercier
clearly say that they've identified
[31:25] certain slots won't be full and they're
not and they know that ahead of time so
[31:28] that they're going to
>> I'm 100% supportive of that whole
[31:32] situation. But the reason you have that
situation is that chief pers pointed out
[31:37] like okay we're trying to contain it but
we also know we don't have any backup
[31:40] during that period which is in direct
conflict with and in every call we know
[31:45] we got at least two more coming.
>> It just doesn't match that that the two
[31:49] things do not match together.
>> Just look look
[31:53] » this may be my doing.
I came from an environment where we had
[31:57] every shift covered
seven days a week, 24 hours a day, which
[32:03] is a very different environment than
what Ben has.
[32:06] We were looking at a situation due to
illness and retirements that for the
[32:11] first time in a long time, we might have
one or two shifts where no one was
[32:15] committed. That is frightening to me.
>> But I've realized now
[32:20] » I say what I said before. I'm fully
supportive of that problem. And what
[32:24] sending improved as you got them.
>> Let me finish.
[32:27] » Yeah,
>> I have realized that what I was worried
[32:30] about is what Ben lives with every damn
day of the week.
[32:33] » And I'm now very sympathetic to Ben. I'm
more realistic that even though I might
[32:39] have a six-hour gap on Saturdays which
what we have that'll be fine. We will
[32:45] live to fight another day and it's okay.
And I'm not going to panic over that. So
[32:49] if you want to blame anybody for
>> I'm not blaming anything. I'm just
[32:52] trying to understand the situation. So,
>> it's just that for the first time in our
[32:57] experience at Harvard, we were walking
in Ben's shoes for a little bit
[33:00] » and we realize how difficult that is.
>> Okay.
[33:04] » You do it long enough and you don't even
notice.
[33:07] » Well,
I'm just telling you I have more respect
[33:10] for what you have to deal with after
having fredded over this over this
[33:14] situation for some time.
>> So, I have great respect for what you
[33:18] deal with every day. But that's where
this comes from.
[33:22] I'm just trying to understand the
situation. So, I'm going to reiterate it
[33:26] in my own little brain, right? We have a
gap where Harshel neck can't have will
[33:31] not necessarily know that they have an
EMT coming. So, we are asking the town
[33:36] staff in that known gap to go and we're
saying that's what we've said that's
[33:41] changed the policy to say. So, I presume
that is still standing as what we're
[33:46] going to do.
I have absolutely that's great if you
[33:50] want to do that
>> and we are
[33:52] » well we already we already said we're
going to is it not needed
[33:55] » it's working right when they they'll
notify the town staff when there is that
[34:00] gap and we've got this your equipment
where it's working
[34:04] » and I assume that this is beneficial to
you that when no EMT responds that the
[34:09] town will respond to you because you
probably have more exposure than we do.
[34:15] Yeah, it comes and goes, es and flows.
>> Uh, we've got a fair number of EMTs on
[34:21] the roster now, but the
>> the question is,
[34:25] » uh, I've got I've got one person that's
going out with I think wrist surgery.
[34:29] I've got another person that's uh left
town yesterday, isn't going to be back
[34:33] till the 16th or whatever,
you know, and when you have that number
[34:38] of people on the roster, you need a lot
of people to cover up, right, the same
[34:43] amount of time. But the real the reality
is that's that's a day to you know or a
[34:49] week toeek thing where people are going
to take vacation time. People are and so
[34:56] far I have never been able to get the
volunteers to sign up for shifts.
[35:01] » So the fact that you have done that to
me is like
[35:06] but it's just never something as many
times we tried it over the years doesn't
[35:10] work. We're lucky and we appreciate
that. But we also have to be respectful
[35:13] what you have to deal with on a daily
basis because you never know who's gonna
[35:16] » for 30 years. It's not like it just
happened.
[35:19] » Yeah.
>> So, um then so I'll circle back around.
[35:25] David, do you want to drop Deltas from
hops neck response?
[35:29] » Is that what you want to have done?
>> What I'm saying is I don't think it adds
[35:35] value. as to whether you want to
continue to do that. That's a question
[35:38] for the chiefs because you're putting
your resources at risk because you're
[35:41] moving fire engines around. All I'm
saying is that the data doesn't support
[35:45] that that's going to achieve anything.
>> I'm willing to suspend the data the the
[35:50] Delta calls and
>> on both sides Dave for or at both
[35:57] stations on meaning if we're
Bailey and that
[36:03] » why wouldn't we just suspend them
totally? I don't think that's our
[36:06] » I'm just like, okay, let's just cancel
let's just cancel the town guys rolling
[36:10] as a matter of policy on Delta.
>> So much easier.
[36:13] » No real problem with that.
>> And if I show up at a Delta call and it
[36:16] turns out to be a serious am
>> I'll be on the radio right away asking
[36:20] for mutual aid.
>> So why don't we do this because it
[36:24] sounds like um sounds like we've you
need guidance. You've been loud and
[36:30] clear and it's our job to help provide
the guidance. I have no problem with
[36:34] suspending deltas, right? I'm going to
ask my EMS providers when they go on a
[36:39] delta level call to give me feedback
and we'll see if including if we need to
[36:46] at least on that side of town if we re
need to go back to deltas or not. It
[36:50] still doesn't take away from if we don't
have an EMS provider respond. That's
[36:54] already part of the policy. We're
already going to respond on the call. If
[36:58] it's an echo, we we're leaving echoes in
there. If they're asked for help,
[37:02] they're going to respond. We're just
talking about suspending delta and and
[37:07] » my side of town. I'll ask my providers
for feedback on deltas if there was a
[37:11] delta that they could have used and it
made a difference to wait for the delay
[37:14] and all that and we'll see what we can
come up with. It's probably going to be
[37:18] anecdotal. I don't want to add any more
fields to the EMS report.
[37:22] » Oh my god, there's too many. There's too
many.
[37:26] » So many. So it can be a crisis that we
have missed. I I will I will say this.
[37:32] Um EMD,
which is a nationwide thing, EMD is a
[37:38] very conservative program. So that it
if it could be read as serious or
[37:46] severely serious or moderately serious,
EMD automatically classifies it the
[37:51] higher
the higher level of seriousness when it
[37:55] comes to
>> determining codes.
[37:58] » And it's telephone. see something who
then reports it to somebody in the phone
[38:02] who then reports it and it gets
distorted.
[38:05] EMD is relatively unreliable. I get
that.
[38:09] » Um I don't know if I
>> I'm not willing to go that far, but it's
[38:13] statutoily required. So there we go. We
don't care.
[38:17] » Whatever it is, we don't care.
>> It's significantly more reliable to what
[38:22] we had before EMD. Fine. I'm just saying
I'm often surprised when I write on as
[38:28] I'm sure you are.
>> Yeah. That joke about two blind people
[38:33] describing something.
>> Uh all right.
[38:38] Are we good with that? So do do we need
to take official action on that or we
[38:42] just got consensus that we're just going
to suspend
[38:44] » suspend the date?
>> Okay.
[38:46] » And you know we'll turn them around if
on on any call. I don't care what it is.
[38:53] fires,
>> make sure they understand their role is
[38:56] to
>> so that we can keep those resources
[38:59] available.
>> My my only request on the turning them
[39:02] around is um and I say this to my folks,
please don't turn them around until you
[39:07] actually have verifi you're arrived on
scene and verified what you have because
[39:11] there's going to be nothing that puts
mud on your face quicker than turning
[39:15] somebody around because you think you
know what you have and and in your case
[39:21] you have them stage here. That's
completely different. I'm talking about
[39:23] outright cancelling them, especially
with the diesels because once you start
[39:28] the diesel, you really need to run the
diesel anyways. You don't want to just
[39:31] turn around and shut it off.
>> So, you end up driving around anyways.
[39:36] » Just have them come until you verified
it and then that gives the engine time
[39:40] to warm up the the exhaust and all that
that we have to deal with now before
[39:45] before they turn around. And it's
perfectly fine and we've all done it to
[39:50] say, "All right, keep coming, but you
can respond cold and we'll let you know
[39:54] or or you know, whatever." That's
perfectly fine, too. But I I would just
[39:59] hesitate cancelling somebody until
you've actually arrive arrived and
[40:04] verified what you
if they're already started is what I'm
[40:08] saying.
>> Well, no,
[40:10] » I was going to cancel somebody set. That
would be foolish.
[40:14] » I have I have no issue with that. But I
do have a question. And I thought like
[40:17] that happened today. Guys came in
utility three and my understanding was
[40:21] you were rolling in the fire truck so
that you were available as a fire crew
[40:25] when and turned around. So
>> what what happened on discussion?
[40:30] » Yeah, I I think we need to get back to
rolling the I know the utilities is a
[40:34] lot more.
>> So on the first one we took utility
[40:37] three because ins harbor that narrow
road that we was going to be very hard
[40:42] with the engine. That's why
>> that's fine. I just didn't know what
[40:45] what
discussion when we got on
[40:49] » the South D was it South Der that one
there
[40:52] » that was
>> I was here for that one so I think that
[40:56] was
>> so to add to that though I think we need
[40:59] to give the paid staff the latitude
>> I I'm not objecting I just it was not
[41:05] what I thought the policy said just
asking what the circumstances were that
[41:09] led to that decision agreeing with it
objecting to it or anything I just asked
[41:14] what it was engine three on that road
was going to be a a disaster. So they
[41:19] made a
>> we had the discussion and she said it's
[41:22] pretty narrow road terrible road
>> and I I really didn't want to move my
[41:25] gear out of the truck but I
[41:29] » my my biggest concern so I think the
reason we had discussed we should
[41:33] default to the engine. I'm not saying
that there can't be exceptions like the
[41:37] first call
>> was because you're if you need to peel
[41:42] off because there is a structure fire
>> a higher level call you need to you need
[41:45] to be in
>> it for that matter we don't carry a full
[41:49] jump bag on the utility truck we carry
an AED and we carry a stop the bleed kit
[41:54] and that's it the engine has a full jump
bag it has you know
[41:58] » so and I wasn't making a big deal out of
it and I don't want to pretend like I
[42:02] was I was just curious what happened
>> I didn't You know, I don't disagree with
[42:06] anything you said and and that is that
is the norm to take the engine
[42:11] » when and when they you know an example
is when they came to interstate they
[42:14] brought the pickup truck
>> because Sean spoke to me and said we
[42:19] know when we get here that we have an
engine in our station that's only
[42:23] » a mile or so away. So it it wasn't that
didn't diminish by coming over here. It
[42:31] didn't diminish their capability because
they weren't going to have to go back to
[42:35] OBI to get an engine. They had one a
mile away from them. So,
[42:39] » I have no problem with that explanation.
>> That that I'm 100% okay with that. You
[42:44] know, if you're coming over in the
pickup truck because you think, you
[42:47] know, my engine's sitting there waiting
for you, that's fine. You know, cuz
[42:52] you're not being displaced. I don't want
you going somewhere in a pickup truck
[42:58] when there is no engine available for
you to respond to.
[43:02] » Probably should
>> I agree.
[43:03] » Probably should grab the jump bag off of
the engine though if you're going to
[43:07] take the utility truck. So
like that that call that I asked them to
[43:14] take engine three because they
dispatched rescue 5 to Harps neck that
[43:17] they took the engine on that one. But if
they had had the utility truck for some
[43:20] reason, especially if you're making
initial patient contact and not I I I
[43:25] get it. You get an extra five or five
five minutes of response if you take the
[43:28] pickup truck or more depending on where
you're going. For sure.
[43:32] » Okay. All right. A beneficial response.
>> Are we good? Are we good on that topic?
[43:37] » I hope so.
>> All right.
[43:38] » Okay. We're ready to quit now.
>> Uh we've got 15 minutes left. So, um
[43:46] » yeah, I still would like to talk to you
though. And you don't have to wait.
[43:50] » You can do it over the phone. Um you
give me a call. Um
[43:54] the
did you have an opportunity to get some
[43:58] information back from Kennabport you'd
like to share?
[44:02] » I'll start and then you can
>> I was so
[44:05] sure. Yes.
>> So it was last week that um Frank and I
[44:14] spoke with Chief Zigga. He's in Kenny
Bunkport.
[44:17] » Zigga.
>> Zigga. Zigga. Thank you. Okay. Zigga
[44:20] » know him well. He actually owns property
in Harpsswwell in the Pendy's Harbor
[44:25] » where I grew up. His son was in our
>> Okay. Well, anytime he's here, we he has
[44:29] to go on calls.
>> Yeah.
[44:31] » So, he needs to join in Portland. So, he
was a colleague of Chief Wallace. He
[44:38] lives in Scarboro, but he is the fire
chief in Kenny Bun Court, and he just
[44:42] started in May, so he's kind of new to
the system that they have. Um he said
[44:48] that based on the knowledge he had
received that Kenny Bunkport
[44:54] started talking about transitioning to
or merging their nonprofit entities in
[45:00] the 2002 time frame and it didn't
actually go to a vote until 2005.
[45:07] At that time Nathan Poor who's currently
the town manager in Falmouth was the
[45:12] Kenny Bunkport town manager. So, we have
a phone call set up with him tomorrow to
[45:17] get his, you know, input on how that
merger, that's kind of the word they
[45:22] were using.
>> Yeah.
[45:23] » How that kind of came to be. Um, did
they hire a consultant? Did they have a
[45:29] report issued? So, we're going to have
that conversation tomorrow. But just to
[45:33] talk a little bit about the current
system in Kenny Bunkport, they actually
[45:38] only have two full-time paid staff. the
chief and he works four days a week and
[45:46] then they have a what do they call a
community risk reduction person
[45:52] full-time working Tuesday to Friday they
have what is considered an on call
[45:59] system is that the term that he used
yeah on call
[46:02] » means they get paid for the hours they
receive
[46:04] » and so they have these I don't know if I
should use the term district because I
[46:08] think he said they had one fire district
but they have these different locations
[46:13] where different historically these
departments have existed are these
[46:17] nonprofit entities and so the they're
call members he said he had about 25
[46:24] active call members but that is their
system that they use they do not he
[46:30] doesn't cover EMS that's a different
organization as a separate entity that
[46:35] does EMS so
>> is the on call people scheduled so you
[46:38] know they're on call
>> um that was a question I I don't know
[46:42] that we asked him
>> basically
[46:46] » got a pool of 30 and you don't know
whether any of them
[46:49] » 25ish I think but
>> I think it was like
[46:53] » he had more but
>> on the roster
[46:55] » but then the active group was much
smaller
[46:58] » sounds familiar
>> yeah we know all about that one
[47:02] » we got lots of people on the roster
>> so the EMS is a separate nonprofit that
[47:09] rents space from the town and they
apparently have all pdeiums, but we
[47:13] didn't spend a lot of time talking about
the EMS system. They have a fund in
[47:18] county bunk. It was based on someone
their estate and that is called the
[47:24] kitridge fund and it funds most of the
the large pieces of equipment that Kenny
[47:30] Bunport has to buy. So
>> apparatus.
[47:33] » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They described that
when they we interviewed him for the
[47:38] municipal program. They described that
process
[47:41] » of how there was a
>> good
[47:45] » historical donor.
>> That's good.
[47:48] » Sounds good.
>> So they have the village station which
[47:52] is where the fire chief is and the
compliance person. They have a Wildwood
[47:57] station, Goose Rocks and Cape Corpus. He
said they recently acquired Cape Corpus.
[48:04] So they merged in terms of operations,
but there was still, you know, entities
[48:10] that own certain property. So I think
that's taken time over the years to deal
[48:14] with.
>> This is a glimpse into the future.
[48:17] » It sounds very familiar, doesn't it?
>> Well, the the the volunteer fire
[48:21] companies, didn't they essentially
become auxiliaries?
[48:24] » I think we didn't really he he wasn't
there then, so he doesn't have all of
[48:28] that history. I think we're going to get
more of that tomorrow from Nathan for
[48:32] » some of the
companies,
[48:36] the corporations that own the building
still like one of them still owns the
[48:40] building, rents it to the
>> I think that's goose rocks.
[48:44] » Goose rocks and one of them gave it to
them. Different stages consolidation
[48:50] » and that happened in South Portland as
well when South Portland had a volunteer
[48:54] company station that they manned for
years and then eventually
[49:00] » But you didn't say each individual
company they took you kind of identity
[49:04] for their for their district or their
fire department
[49:10] » to buy stuff for that.
>> Yeah. Special stuff they want like if
[49:13] they wanted a Lucas device that wasn't
in their normal kit or something
[49:17] » or a pole. I don't know. You're just
>> I want one of those polls.
[49:22] » Yeah, we have a
>> He did say they relied heavily on their
[49:26] mutual aid partners Kenny Bunk or Rundle
and Bitterford. And he did say that, you
[49:31] know, they're starting to look at how
long their model is going to work
[49:36] because it's
>> Did they tell you how many people they
[49:38] try? I mean, when they have a a fire,
how many people they try and call?
[49:42] » So, I think they they get those three
departments.
[49:46] » Yeah. No,
>> I think he had like he had like he said
[49:51] he had a core of 198
that was the big difference between us.
[49:56] We just don't have people. He's got some
people still active.
[50:02] » So they didn't get into So if they get
call, they didn't tell you like how they
[50:05] get paid. Do they get paid on call or?
>> We didn't get into that. I mean, I think
[50:10] it was interesting for us to know what
their model was. And it is this on call
[50:15] model. They don't have eight full-time
employees. They have two. Um, and they
[50:20] do pay these on call people, but we
didn't really get into the structure of
[50:24] how
>> generally in the fire service, the
[50:27] difference between a volunteer and an on
call firefighters, they get paid for the
[50:30] on calls get paid for their hours.
>> We know they get paid, but we didn't get
[50:34] into what the structure.
>> So, they get paid what, like four hours
[50:37] if they get a call or
>> it depends on the department.
[50:40] » Okay.
>> They may have a minimum if you turn out
[50:43] you're going to get paid for hours. They
may just say a straight number of hours
[50:46] that you work.
That doesn't mean they're necessarily
[50:48] getting paid to set it home.
>> They're not get like call
[50:52] » the tones go off,
>> right?
[50:55] » No. When I was on the call department in
Brunswick, you got paid per hour, the
[51:01] hour that you were actually engaged.
>> Yeah.
[51:03] » But you you also got paid to attend
training and they had scheduled training
[51:10] once a month. So you you accumulated at
least a couple hours right a month pay
[51:16] by attending training but other than
that there was no uh minimum call out
[51:23] pay. You got paid for the hours that you
actually worked.
[51:27] » You so you didn't get called to like
back in the old days when you used to
[51:30] carry like a beeper. You're on call and
like when your beeper went on and you
[51:34] had to go in like when your call goes
off. You don't get paid like something
[51:38] an hour just to hang out.
>> No standby time.
[51:41] » Okay.
>> No.
[51:42] » Okay.
>> No, you only got paid when the tone went
[51:44] off.
>> Okay.
[51:47] » So, I have to say I was really surprised
that Kenny Bunkport with a lot of
[51:51] businesses and a kind of village area
only had two full-time paid staff.
[51:58] » And I'm surprised too.
>> That really surprised me.
[52:02] » What's their call volume? Did they give
you any idea? He said 350 calls per
[52:06] year.
>> How much?
[52:08] » That's just fire.
>> That's just fire. You're right. We, you
[52:11] know, his people do not. It It's a
separate entity. The EMS,
[52:16] » we probably do townwide.
>> That's a lot of calls.
[52:19] » EMS calls.
>> It's one a day.
[52:24] » Yeah. Yeah. I get that. But I'm just
saying.
[52:28] » So it was, you know,
>> we don't have two guys.
[52:30] » They're not having to consider higher
300 calls a year. They want to continue
[52:34] their model as long as they can is what
was saying, but they're concerned that,
[52:40] you know,
>> they have to start looking into the
[52:42] future.
>> Yeah.
[52:46] » So, you're going to reach out to the
current town manager in Felmouth
[52:51] » and hopefully he can tell you who they
use for somebody to help the
[53:02] » Yeah. and he said, "Oh, oh, let me think
about that. Let's talk."
[53:05] » Well, Chief Chief Everett was the chief
before Chief Zigga, but I don't I I
[53:11] suspect Chief Effort was hired after
they started the
[53:16] » merger.
>> Merger.
[53:18] » That was the word he used. Yeah.
>> So, the current town manager in Felmouth
[53:22] used to be in Kenny Bunk.
>> Oh, okay.
[53:25] » Yeah.
>> He was the chief.
[53:26] » Yeah. Okay.
>> Well, he was the town manager for Okay.
[53:30] All right. When we interviewed them at
the time
[53:34] for the uh administrative position,
the the man was head of the water
[53:42] district
>> and he was the administrator. He held
[53:47] the administrator's position
>> and all he did at the time as a fire
[53:51] administrator was pretty much almost an
HR administrative role.
[53:58] And then he transitioned
from the fire administrator to the PIG
[54:06] when the model changed,
but he was head of the water district.
[54:10] That was I I can't remember his name
back then when we did it.
[54:14] » I don't remember either.
[54:21] » Okay. All right. Um let's see. I see
that you adopted Jonathan's proposal for
[54:29] the EMS policy
>> tonight.
[54:32] » It's on the select board agenda.
[54:40] » I think it's I think it's perfect.
>> I'm sure you do.
[54:48] » And did somebody
>> Frank, you snuck in a little bit more
[54:51] than I said.
>> Oh, really? That's between two. just so
[54:54] you felt good about it and owned it.
>> The compromise
[54:59] was definitely a compromise.
>> Okay.
[55:02] » Was a lot shorter to read, Frank.
[55:07] So, the last thing um that's open that I
want to try to get because we're almost
[55:12] up on our time is I would like to
encourage the town to consider
[55:18] » putting to the voters on the November
ballot getting back into pers rather
[55:22] than
>> it's too late. You can't we can't even
[55:24] meet the deadline
>> for November.
[55:26] » Yeah.
It's a 60-day. You have to have the
[55:32] article to the town in a 60-day period.
We're meeting with main furs next week.
[55:37] There's a whole series of
um questions you have to respond to and
[55:43] they have to run their numbers through
actuaries. And so we're beginning the
[55:48] process, but and they they will give
when we get to a certain point, they
[55:52] will say this is the language you need
to use for your vote in your community.
[55:58] » So there's
>> so have you been able to verify there at
[56:02] July one?
>> Um they said any month.
[56:05] » Oh, any.
>> Okay, that all right. That makes me a
[56:08] little bit less concerned about it
because like I said in Portland made
[56:10] » the beginning of any month once you've
followed all of these steps.
[56:14] » Okay. All right. That's what I was
trying to beat. I didn't want us to get
[56:17] stuck with having to wait to 2028 to get
into it when these new employees are
[56:22] going to be on the books
>> six months before that is what I was
[56:25] trying to
>> I fel
[56:29] um
the EMT gap planning is that's an
[56:34] ongoing thing. There's nothing new on
that. Uh I'm going to talk to Scott
[56:39] after the meeting about the ambulance
equipment thing. There's nothing new on
[56:42] that.
the jump back thing.
[56:45] » Yeah,
>> budget and staff planning. Is there
[56:48] anything we need to know about that or
>> I think
[56:56] so I mean just real quick um I'm going
to be looking to um get authorization to
[57:02] recruit a couple of additional prediums
and uh as well as make some adjustments
[57:07] to the existing staff classifications
that we have now. as far as your but
[57:14] your question is asking about budgets
for the
[57:16] » well I was just going down the list
>> 2027 fiscal 2027 so uh this might be a
[57:22] Terry question
I mean do we now have
[57:27] the BAC
schedule that we're all going to have to
[57:33] live by
>> not yet not yet but I mean it's usually
[57:37] » the request for information starts
around that September time frame Yeah, I
[57:42] know. I'm well aware of that.
>> I'm I'm well aware of that. I'm well
[57:46] aware of the general schedule.
>> I'm wondering what whether we have the
[57:50] real schedule.
>> We we have not put together the official
[57:53] schedule.
>> Is this the budget?
[57:55] » Yes.
>> Yeah.
[57:56] » But I think the piece Frank's talking
about so maybe we jumped ahead is doing
[58:00] something prior to
>> a little something in 2026 because you
[58:06] can explain why.
>> That's a different.
[58:08] » Yeah. Because we still haven't I mean
you're doing the administrative position
[58:14] but nobody was hired to backfill the
slot you were
[58:17] » exactly
>> which was your slot a part-timer or was
[58:19] it a pdeium when you moved over to the
administrative position?
[58:22] » I'm sorry say that ask your question.
>> Was the position you moved in to
[58:26] administrator from was that part-time or
pdeium?
[58:29] » I was p
>> okay
[58:31] » and
so you need two pdeiums then right or
[58:34] one parttime one or the other. So, we've
been down one
[58:38] » pretty
>> um and we've got So, because we've been
[58:45] down one and I I actually put in kind of
a policy for no no overtime. So, people
[58:51] haven't been able to use their leave
that they wanted to be able to use. So
[58:54] people got some news that that they need
to use as well as um
[59:00] um being able to look at the whole
system wise as far as
[59:05] our core group of people that are
working and then a few people that not
[59:10] as many. Yeah,
>> it look
[59:14] I've come to the conclusion we we need
I'm looking at getting two pdeiums and
[59:18] then make some adjustments on because
we've got some a pdeium and a part-time
[59:23] really that are basically working
full-time.
[59:26] » Yeah, they are.
>> So that we're looking to make some
[59:30] adjustments there to the staff that we
have now.
[59:34] » But so you'd rather hire two PDMs rather
than bump the people up that are
[59:37] basically doing part-time and fulltime
work. No, I
[59:41] » both.
>> I'm I'm doing both without Yeah, I'm not
[59:45] trying to broadcast all personnel issues
out here, but yes, I'm going to be doing
[59:48] both.
>> Now, were we paying overtime, Christie,
[59:52] when uh Mike was hiring for the
>> for the storm coverages and stuff like
[59:59] that?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:00:02] » But you're advocating no overtime.
>> So, that's that's that's what I've been
[1:00:06] doing
>> just during this period. So I think
[1:00:08] maybe just step back a little bit before
Frank was brought on as interim and you
[1:00:14] know there were some discussions about
how we might need some additional help
[1:00:18] even with our current system and then
you know Mike obviously no longer here
[1:00:24] and then Frank comes on board and we
said Frank take time see how this system
[1:00:28] operates and then make a recommendation
about what you think for staffing. So
[1:00:33] within this current model, within this
current fiscal year, he's he asked his
[1:00:39] people to not kind of work overtime for
a period of time and he was evaluating
[1:00:44] and now he's saying they need to take
vacation. They have time off. We need
[1:00:48] more people to cover these shifts.
>> Yeah,
[1:00:50] » we're down a person anyway since Mike's
no longer with us. So
[1:00:55] » we need to add a couple people to our
none of this controversial to make.
[1:01:00] Okay, where are you going to find the
money? We have these people because of
[1:01:03] no
>> Yeah. because of no overtime other
[1:01:05] people have stepped up you and Mike
>> and worked more hours.
[1:01:08] » So it would just balance and bringing
people on to avoid overtime cost. The
[1:01:14] balance there's always a balance between
paying overtime or hiring additional
[1:01:19] personnel and that's the equation you're
looking at.
[1:01:22] » Exactly. And home life as well.
>> Right. Sometimes it's more
[1:01:26] » efficient just to bring somebody on
board. But we were definitely paying
[1:01:29] some overtime when Mike was not around
because people were stepping up to help
[1:01:33] in so many different ways. So, you know,
there are always exceptions.
[1:01:37] » Now, by overtime, you're strictly
talking about over 40 hours. You're not
[1:01:41] talking about predominant
[1:01:52] Chinese over all the time.
>> Yeah.
[1:01:56] » And as well as
Well, I mean,
[1:02:00] » but we have a really committed,
dedicated group of people
[1:02:04] » and I think what Frank is proposing
rewards perhaps some people that have
[1:02:09] really stepped up and taken on more
hours and, you know, and then we want
[1:02:14] people to be able to take their time
off, their vacation time, you know,
[1:02:18] their family time.
>> Yeah. I don't know how you tell somebody
[1:02:21] that they can't take their own time off
in their time. I can't
[1:02:28] say that
>> it was the overtime piece.
[1:02:29] » No, we didn't. They didn't they didn't
say that. I never said they couldn't
[1:02:33] take their leave. Yeah.
>> But
[1:02:35] » they took it more to heart that they
didn't want to create overtime. That's
[1:02:38] why they weren't taking leave. So,
>> yeah.
[1:02:40] » Well, I appreciate you taking care of
that.
[1:02:44] » Um, as far as the 27 budget though, is
there any any thing to report or are we
[1:02:50] are we good? You ready for BAC on what
we had recommended at the last meeting?
[1:02:56] How can you even expect that? We got a
month to go.
[1:03:00] » I've been I've been working on how many
hours and then I'm working on
[1:03:06] I mean I mean I can show you my I've got
a lot of work product. I don't have
[1:03:11] anything as far as uh
anything official to be able to I
[1:03:18] wouldn't want to pass it out as official
budget documents, but I've got a lot of
[1:03:22] work work product that we can Well,
Frank, I mean, you're going to get the
[1:03:26] schedule, so pretty soon we'll know what
the schedule is.
[1:03:29] » I think we would bring a draft committee
before
[1:03:33] » schedule is going to be faster than the
rest of us get sucked into this vortex.
[1:03:37] » Yeah.
>> And when you you you know, you got it
[1:03:40] sort of in the near final shape, we
should take a look at it and see what we
[1:03:44] got going.
>> I mean, I mean, at the end of the day,
[1:03:47] it's it's really not going to
salary wise, it's going to be pretty
[1:03:53] pretty easy to the hours.
>> Yeah.
[1:03:56] » How much how much we're paying by hour.
The benefit part will be a little
[1:03:59] different because the main
>> parasite.
[1:04:01] » No, I just wanted to make sure that
you're you're on target to make sure
[1:04:04] that based on the feedback we've given
you that town's on target for
[1:04:11] » numbers back that we believe meet your
recommendation and see if you're
[1:04:17] comfortable with that.
So basically, but you you you gave us
[1:04:22] you wanted 24 hours a day, seven days a
week,
[1:04:25] » right?
>> So those those are the numbers. Yeah.
[1:04:27] » Now it's up to us to figure out is how
many full-time, how many PDM, what's the
[1:04:32] combination of the two, all that stuff.
>> But there's some other basic assumptions
[1:04:36] that I think realistically you got to
put on the table eventually to get to
[1:04:41] the numbers like, okay, when are we
going to start?
[1:04:43] » Yeah, starting.
>> Well, we made that recommendation last.
[1:04:45] I know I understand, you know, but I
mean in terms of the budget that's
[1:04:49] that's really the
>> you know
[1:04:51] » some of the stuff is just what's your
set of assumptions.
[1:04:54] » Although I would hope that we be able to
ramp up soon.
[1:04:56] » No, no, no. Everybody agreed with that.
>> Yeah.
[1:05:01] » Okay. Um
>> and then on fiscal 27, I'm just going to
[1:05:04] say this because the building committee
met earlier, which is, you know, the
[1:05:07] other key one is like, okay, what's the
date?
[1:05:10] » We heard there's a flexible schedule
today.
[1:05:13] » I know. What is it? It was potentially
groundbreaking March of 2027 with a 12
[1:05:20] month construction period.
>> Okay. So, we're not going to have any
[1:05:23] building operating building operating
costs.
[1:05:26] » No, they're saying March.
Just hoping they can speed it up.
[1:05:30] » Correct.
>> Okay. There we go.
[1:05:32] » Yeah.
>> Or are we next meeting on the 24?
[1:05:41] That would be that. So
>> yes. Okay. Uh this will be the same
[1:05:48] court tomorrow where we do for city
first on our meeting afterward.
[1:05:52] » Yeah. Building committee at three fire
and rescue.
[1:05:55] » Sorry. So can I can I ask a little minor
discussion of that slightly?
[1:06:02] » I I said yes to that
but it's going to be more difficult than
[1:06:07] I expected.
So, I don't know if it's possible to
[1:06:11] have I mean, I'll live with the four. If
it's possible for Aaron to know, are
[1:06:16] there some times when he could do one
and the rest of the committee could do
[1:06:21] one so I could have the four back? one
what we talking about
[1:06:26] » one no 1 p.m. So back to could we
>> alternate or periodically or do
[1:06:32] something
>> or do we do we flip we'll do fire and
[1:06:36] rescue at three and do the building
I'm just saying I'm going to I I think
[1:06:42] you you might have traded Aaron not
making it at one for me not making it at
[1:06:46] four. Now, that might be a good deal and
you might want to take it,
[1:06:50] » but it's a committee decision,
>> but I don't know if Erin has any
[1:06:54] capability of knowing whether the one
could work.
[1:06:58] » No, it just depends what the office
schedules me and we're busy.
[1:07:02] » That's fine. So, 24th is at 4.
>> I I don't It makes no difference to me.
[1:07:06] » Well, could we like Ben suggested we do
it at We do this one at three and the
[1:07:11] building at 4. Would that help,
Jonathan?
[1:07:13] » That helps me for sure, but I don't
know. if that works for all the rest of
[1:07:18] the you know this is a
>> that's fine with me
[1:07:20] » a lot of moving parts in this
>> it's two hours for me one way the other
[1:07:24] so that's
>> it doesn't matter to me either so if we
[1:07:27] want to do it at three that's fine
>> I mean I think we have to check with
[1:07:30] port city and right
>> can somebody just check with the rest of
[1:07:33] the guys and see if that works
>> I'll pencil it in at four and I'll plan
[1:07:36] to be here but if I get some relief on
it will help me
[1:07:41] » okay I'll just put that on my
>> So we're meeting at what time three
[1:07:45] » we're going We're gonna
>> pencil in at 4 like we expect,
[1:07:48] » but it may be three
>> to three.
[1:07:50] » Okay.
>> Which won't matter to you because you're
[1:07:53] here anyways. You're going to be here
from 3:00 to 5:00 no matter what.
[1:07:58] » I think we got to make sure. Right,
Ryan?
[1:08:01] » Right. That's what I'm saying. Reports
that need to see if it's possible. Yeah,
[1:08:05] » I'm I'm on the 24th. I'm putting in
four,
[1:08:09] » but longer term it would be helpful if I
get
[1:08:11] » We'll see what happens. Hopefully, we
can move it.
[1:08:13] » Okay. for you. That's the benefit.
>> Yeah, I don't think we have I mean, we
[1:08:16] still have open items, but we have
nothing to report on the remainder of
[1:08:19] the open items unless somebody has new
business.
[1:08:22] » 510.
>> What's that?
[1:08:24] » It's 510. Mr. Chairman, co-chairman.
>> Are we good to adjourn?
[1:08:30] » I'm all set. I was good. 10 minutes.
>> All right. Thank you.
[1:08:34] » Thank you all. I think we did good.