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All right. With that, I will call to order the September 9th, 2026 meeting, Harris of a planning commission. We have a quorum, five of the members are present. Mr. Sites contacted us earlier today, sitting, standing under the weather, so he's not here. And Mr. Alcendi is still in Iraq, and we were setting up for him to participate virtually. And then Ms. Dynes, Ms. Dynes,

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Pointed out that oh, yeah, our bylaws say you get to do this twice a year

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He's not sure he's going to be back next month city decided to bank

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Keep this one in the bank

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So with that we've got it. We've got the other five of the skiers, so we have a quorum

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First item then is review of the August 12 minutes.

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I like to make a motion that we accept the minutes is submitted

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Second

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All right, move the Vice Chair Porter, seconded by Commissioner Kettler, discussion.

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All in favor say aye.

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Aye.

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Opposed?

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No.

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All right, those minutes stand approved.

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This day, you want to come in on the next slide for August 18th?

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Yes, thank you.

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So, for the August 18th meeting, I'd like to request one amendment to the draft minutes, which

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is the change in the heading, the date to reflect that it's a August 18th instead of July

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for what date it is.

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21st.

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Yeah.

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21st there, which is incorrect.

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And then also, there's another heading at the very top of the first page of the minutes

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also at the very top of the page.

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Right.

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Just two spots on the first page that we were given.

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So July 21.

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I think that looked August 18.

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Any other changes, comments or motions?

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Motion to approve with the amendment as presented by staff.

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Second.

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All right.

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with the amendments against by staff,

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I Commissioner Kepler,

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second by Commissioner Chezio.

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Discussion?

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All in favor say aye.

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Aye.

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Opposed, no.

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All right, minutes, August 18th,

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minute meeting approved.

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All right, which gives us some

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to new business, and I assume

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for A and B, we'll take it up together.

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We've got a request of Easter midnight school

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to approve or require another Wall Street parking spaces,

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and to amend the master plan in seven or one

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and eight or one park would drive

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All right, good evening commissioners.

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I'm a grab key planner with community development.

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These requests tonight are from Easter midnight school or EMS.

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They're requesting to request, they have to request tonight.

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They are requesting to establish a minimum number

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of off street parking spaces required for their school use

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and to approve an amendment to the school's

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institutional overlay master plan.

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EMS campus is, sorry, the EMS campus includes property

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zone, R3 and V2, with the institutional overlay district applied to the whole campus.

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This site is identified as institutional and limited commercially in the comprehensive

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plans of future land use guide, and here is an aerial of the site.

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Here's a little bit zoomed in aerial.

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The subject of property is the EMS campus.

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It is located at 701 and 802 Parkwood Drive and 1251 Virginia Avenue.

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The campus is approximately 26.3 acres and is located near Eastern men in the university.

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The property currently includes school building, athletic facilities, parking areas, and

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various associated campus uses.

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We'll talk about the school parking request first.

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The first request is related to the school parking.

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For school uses, the zoning ordinance requires planning commission to approve the appropriate

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number of required off-street parking spaces.

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EMS had used the Virginia Departments of Education's

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Guidelines for School Facilities in Virginia's Public Schools, sorry, mouthful, to calculate

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their parking needs. Those guidelines recommend parking for staff, additional parking for visitors,

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and student parking equal to one third of enrollment. Using the lower 10% of the suggested

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visited parking rate, EMS has calculated the need for 200 parking spaces for their school

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use.

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Staff supports the establishment of the 200 spaces at the minimum required parking for

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this school.

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To the master plan, the second part of the request is amendment to the master plan.

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EMS originally received a approval for an institutional master plan in 2002 that a

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approval address.

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The last campus expansions, parking, athletic fields, and provided limited zoning relief to

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setbacks. In 2016, the institutional overlay was amended and expanded by approximately two

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acres. That amendment supported the conversion of the former men and media building for the

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current elementary school use. Since then, internal property rights have been vacated, resulting

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parking in one single current parcel for the campus.

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Today's request would supersede the previous approval of master plans in the amendments.

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This is the proposed, this shows the proposed master plan map for EMS, sorry.

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The master plan identifies existing development as well as areas that have shown in yellow,

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the yellow buildings that are new buildings, there's new parking, existing parking,

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The master plan requires a narrative to be part of their request.

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The master plan narrative identifies up to 435 total parking spaces on the campus.

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Of the spaces, 200 of those spaces would be part of that.

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200 spaces would satisfy the parking requirement for the school use.

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With remaining 235 spaces intended to accommodate additional uses on the property such as church services that are hosted, athletic events and other school or various special events that are hosted on this property.

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In addition to the number of parking spaces being requested the applicant is requesting flexibility as part of their master plan from the parking lot design standards required by section 10 325.4A.

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This code section requires two things.

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It requires a five foot separation between non-residential parking uses and adjoining residential

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property.

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EMU is zone residential so they would have to apply with non-residential parking being

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the school use.

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They would have to have additional separations with residential zoning next door.

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And they would also like to allow for parking to occupy more than 50% of the area between

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the kind of the building and the public street that's shown in the area circled on, circled in red on the screen.

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The code would not, that code section would not allow them to build their parking lot as it is shown.

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They would have to provide more green space for the parking.

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The application is also requesting flexibility from certain parking lot landscaping requirements as required by section,

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in my section is 10, 3, 30, 0.10, and 5 of the parking lot landscaping ordinance.

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The deviation would allow parking lot landscaping to be located either within parking lots as

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it is typically required within their required landscaping islands or within 15 feet of the

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final parking lot on the master plan it is shown by those green trees on the screen and there's

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a note on the map showing those are the general areas that parking lot landscaping may

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may be met in the future, allowing the flexibility allows the final design of the future parking

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in lots and drive-iles to be designed at a later date, while still requiring and maintaining

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that landscaping will be provided within the plan. Since individual parking lots have not

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been fully designed yet, the master plan areas show where the flexibility can be used.

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The master plan narrative also identifies existing private access assessments that are within

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the property as well as proposed. The best plan provides the existing private access

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easement from Virginia Avenue that serves Virginia and the Knight Missions and Annabest

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and Baptist Missions partners referred to as VMM and APM to provide access along their

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property to get to and from the sites. The narrative also provides a proposed easement

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that to address existing access concerns that are with, sorry, the narrative also identifies

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proposed easements to address an existing EMS access encroachment onto the VMM-AMP property.

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I had that on the screen there. That easement that seemed referred to is proposed.

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It is on the screen where, showing where people currently drive an access on the site today.

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And

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then the master plan also identifies a potential future access easement connecting EMS to Parkwood, connecting EMS and EMS.

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AMU through Parkwood Drive.

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The master

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plan also identifies a potential access easement, connecting AMU through the EMS property to Parkwood Drive. Located at 1194 Parkwood Park Road is the AMU property, where this is shown on the screen in that square. It is accessed in access easement that would provide the ability to get from AMU's property to Parkwood.

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from EMS. In this easement, it would only be provided if EME requested, but it is shown

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that it is able to be accommodated when and if they are to request it.

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And then, notice the master plan identifies a possible future connection to Mt. Clinton

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Pike to serve the campus and parking lot three identified on the map. As it is shown on

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the master plan map, the entrance to Mt. Clinton Pike does not meet city access management

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requirements. Staff has advised that any future access should be coordinated with the driveway

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across mountain clean pipe wherever feasible. And the applicant has noted on their master plan

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that the final entrance location and design will be determined at a later date subject to city

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review.

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Staff recommends approval of the two, we'll start with two rest. Staff recommends approval

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of the request to establish 200 off-street parking spaces as required for the minimum off-street

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school parking. And then staff also recommends approval of the EMS master plan amendment.

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The proposed master plan amendment is consistent with the proposed institutional overlay district.

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It supports and continues development of the existing private school campus. It provides

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additional educational support buildings, athletic facilities, parking open space areas to

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help support the school.

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I

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just want to question about the potential access from the EMU property are those currently those athletic fields that are adjacent to the property

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I ask you guys it's the athletic fields that are currently there's an existing

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I feel along this okay. Thank you

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Mr

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I have a question if I made other slide that shows the EMU that you're just showing where a connection could be made

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Yeah, it's not the location of the future easement yet to be determined

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That is okay, thank you for clarifying, it is a potential location of how it could be accomplished.

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Not the final, for sure, location, apologies.

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Anything else to say?

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Thank you.

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We'll now invite the applicant's representative to forward tell us if you can meet here.

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Good evening.

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Chair of all and commissioners and council member.

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Thank you for reviewing this application for us.

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and then considering the master plan amendment

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with the parking also requirements here.

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I think the only issue that I take with Meg,

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she said it was a square, but it wasn't a square,

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it was a rectangle.

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No, I mean, we're here and guess if you have any questions,

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we're happy to address them.

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But I don't know that we have anything that we want to present

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at this point.

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And everything, you know, what stuff was in it was, I think, percent of our interest.

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I guess I have a question about the request to relax the landscaping departments within

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the actual parking itself.

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Also, the five, the relaxing of the five foot setbacks with the residential areas.

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What is the rationale for that and, you know, what is the impact on your neighbors effectively?

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Yeah, that's that there's actually interesting because the the setback that we have I forget is the five feet of the 10 feet setback

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so

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It's really more a consideration in in the future or or or we have one of the parking lots

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That's just right adjacent to to EMU that that could be an issue

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But for the most part that's an issue for us at all because we are we are already more than ten feet back and most of the other parking

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Situation so it's really more in in one area that could be an issue

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So I think the consideration is to have, I mean, this is more ordinance requirement in terms

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of having a separation that you have a buffer between parking and then adjacent properties.

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And especially in this case, it's talking about residential, make sure there is no car lights

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and things like that.

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In fact, on a residential, residential, a neighborhood, residential views, but there's no residential views right now surrounding VMS. Can we bring the map of professional? I don't want you to point out where that? Yeah, if you want to meet the case. I think it's maybe here. Yeah, I can, but I can point. So on the left side right there, that's just a narrow part right there where that could be an issue. That's the only place right now that could be an issue. There's no really no other place right now.

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That's right adjacent to the athletic fields there for EMU.

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I'm one of the things that could be put in the areas is a fence, for example.

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Fence, I could satisfy that requirement.

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I don't know if fence that's much in terms of blocking light or anything like that,

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but it's satisfied the requirement.

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And if there was a larger residential neighborhood around this, I might have an opinion.

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There is, there is none, that's right.

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Yeah, I think EMU is considered the residential, I'm not sure what.

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on the other side of Parkwood Drive would be considered there would be some houses and that is of course of three so it's beyond beyond

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There on the left of the diagram where there's just the little grass the green strip before

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EMU's property begins

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There's then a pretty large green buffer between

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That boundary and EMU's turf soccer field

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Then the city also put in that very, very close to that boundary of the generators to save on electric demand.

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They're not shown because they're on e-mode part of it, but they're probably right around that boundary line as well.

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I know there's a close association between the school and the university.

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Would you be effectively offering up your parking for potential athletic use at e-mute as well?

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It happens. Yeah. It happens a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of collaboration between the entities there. Yeah, which makes sense.

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Which is a good way to use that parking lots to put in more parking lots. So yeah, I was thinking kind of where you were talking about the setback being limited.

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It was a long park would drive because of the added

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width there and making that closer to park. Right. And that's pretty much

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Check the quality of the area there.

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And the requirements, you know, 50% of that space,

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and we are not even there, we're not okay.

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So we're good, I think we'll be all right with that.

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And the all set of landscape also,

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that was the second part of your question,

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is also two, and that's one of the provisions

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that typically is allowed for, to allow

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to place landscape other than within the islands.

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In this case, even on our plan, we're kind of showing landscape within the islands.

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I feel like that if that's doable, we will do it, but otherwise that we're reserving the opportunity to good landscape around the edges also.

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Another point to make here is that most of these parking is already there, and from some point of redeveloping that parking, because there's existing parking, we don't have to comply with parking landscape requirements in that case.

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If it is new parking, new areas, yes, we do, that doesn't mean that we won't necessarily

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add more islands.

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As a matter of fact, this might actually show some more islands in the world where they

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are known right now.

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And that may occur that way or not.

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But right now we are reserving the option of having landscape surrounding the parking, the

226
00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:37,230
parking area.

227
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:41,830
And it's within a limited space within 15 feet of that area, which, again, we don't want

228
00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:44,950
to encourage further out, in that sense, we're probably going to stay within that space

229
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:45,550
anyways.

230
00:18:45,550 --> 00:18:50,830
So, and there's already some already, some landscape that is compliant with that.

231
00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:53,210
I don't know if that answers your question, but it does.

232
00:18:53,410 --> 00:18:53,710
Thank you.

233
00:18:56,390 --> 00:19:02,550
Just for clarification, based on the tables, you're really only adding 25 parking spaces,

234
00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:02,970
correct?

235
00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:05,970
It's just allocating 204 schools specifically.

236
00:19:06,610 --> 00:19:07,050
Yes.

237
00:19:07,390 --> 00:19:12,310
What it is, the parking spaces where they are added is because of some displacement of the bus

238
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:18,710
parking, which right now is occurring on the tennis courts. I mean, all that area is hopefully

239
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:23,230
to clean up all that and package a little bit better, you know, and this place and rearrange some

240
00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:29,210
parking. And we have some area there that was already impervious, semi impervious and we're

241
00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:35,550
reworking that and we're just gonna use that for parking and moving the parking devices onto the side

242
00:19:35,550 --> 00:19:39,450
where they can be more easily accessed in our front of these buildings.

243
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:54,080
It seems to me that since it's already zoned R3 and V2 with institutional overlay,

244
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:57,300
the

245
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,900
The setbacks are normally associated with the resident.

246
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:19,600
So, that is correct. So, we have a 10th setback throughout the property. So, that is that the setback, there was also, by master planning, we did that a couple of iterations ago and that we are, we're maintaining that question

247
00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:31,010
on the calculation of the parking spot. Getting back to that slide. I can't do it. Well, maybe I can. I don't know.

248
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:42,180
And so, and I'm not terribly familiar with these guidelines.

249
00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:55,460
So, I was just wondering are these guidelines that in general, you know, by the state that you ought to follow or these, you know, if there's some other calculations that work here.

250
00:20:55,460 --> 00:20:58,700
So, I'm going to be familiar with them either.

251
00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:00,880
That's something that staff actually made us aware of.

252
00:21:01,020 --> 00:21:06,940
In the past, in the past, we had discussed certain numbers that EMU or EMS in this case

253
00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:11,460
was comfortable with saying this is a number of parking spaces that we need and that's what

254
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:12,180
we were going with.

255
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:17,460
But then staff pointed out during this time, it's like, well, we, you know, the requirements

256
00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:20,660
are an ordinance that we follow the guidelines of Virginia Public Schools.

257
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,360
So that is, I think I don't know if it's a guidance or it's a requirement, a firm requirement

258
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:35,360
but that is what we utilize for it and there is certainly more parking than what we need and you know

259
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:40,260
that's no question about it. I never know somebody else can answer that. I can't answer that easily.

260
00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:45,400
We certainly have ample parking and often we'll kind of share our parking lots with you know

261
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,300
VMRC if they're doing some asphalt work or EMU.

262
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:56,180
I guess part of what I'm thinking is, I mean, it seems like the guideline suggests that

263
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:59,480
every single staff member drives a single occupancy vehicle.

264
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,800
Which is not true.

265
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,820
Well, I mean, that was my question, so that's sort of it.

266
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,640
These are recommendations for the Virginia Department of Education and they're not requirements

267
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,720
and our ordinance does not require it.

268
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:23,500
We've used it, we staff, have used this to help guide us in absence of other guidance or standards available.

269
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:35,600
And I guess this is a question for staff. Is there a way to approve this with the option of them making less working if they so desire?

270
00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:42,990
I'm not familiar with this kind of request, so I'm not, I mean, be asking the question wrong.

271
00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:52,610
I suppose you could recommend less, but I guess you could, yeah, I don't understand.

272
00:22:52,790 --> 00:22:57,830
And just to be clear about my thinking, I mean, I don't want to delay this anymore or deny

273
00:22:57,830 --> 00:23:02,090
in any kind of fashion, but I'm wondering if there might be a way to provide some flexibility

274
00:23:02,970 --> 00:23:04,270
for the applicant.

275
00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:09,890
Yeah, we were comfortable with what they are comfortable accepting with the 200,

276
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:15,810
because they're proposing to provide 435 total on the property and we thought

277
00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:19,830
well the requirements only 200 which is half of what they're going to be

278
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:20,370
providing.

279
00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:22,450
It

280
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,320
would mean they don't have to construct the other 235 if they do not, you know,

281
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:33,060
our plan is only going to require the 200.

282
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:38,900
I wasn't clear on this, I appreciate that and I don't know how many students drive

283
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:47,100
Yeah, I found it interesting. One third of the enrollment of students. Well, these are

284
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:51,120
what middle and high school and elementary.

285
00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:57,320
So if anybody, only the high school, I was

286
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:04,120
high school included in this map as well. So they would be the only ones actually driving.

287
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:12,720
Yeah, I don't think we would have close to 200 cars on campus every day in the park, but there

288
00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:16,890
are events that fill the parking.

289
00:24:18,610 --> 00:24:21,870
I was going to ask how often you would get up to that 435.

290
00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:29,950
Well, yeah, I would say rarely what happens is particular event spaces will be too small.

291
00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:35,210
So you know if we're playing a local public school the gym lot isn't quite

292
00:24:35,210 --> 00:24:40,910
adequate so it spills out front or if we have a large event in the auditorium

293
00:24:40,910 --> 00:24:45,930
that spills over to the dining area parking but people just need to walk

294
00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:51,390
further which is what happens now. And you host a couple churches on site

295
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:56,770
Crankings as well. Sometimes those I mean I've seen those party lots of pretty. Yes. Yes.

296
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:23,400
Go ahead. Go ahead. It sounds like, and unfortunately, I couldn't go this like this. So, forgive me. It sounds like some of those uses we're talking about, gym uses and general school uses and church uses. It sounds like those would tend to be at different times, depending on the events. They are.

297
00:25:26,340 --> 00:25:29,800
But they tend to fill in, whichever parking lot they are.

298
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,520
But they're utilizing, so that's the interesting part also.

299
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,860
Yeah, I mean, I've seen all the parking sometimes, but it's very rare to have everything

300
00:25:38,860 --> 00:25:39,200
full.

301
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:40,880
That's a question about.

302
00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:46,710
Yeah.

303
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:50,890
I just want to ask a quick, also a quick question about, it looks like there's some discussion

304
00:25:50,890 --> 00:25:55,370
about changing the circulation pattern for a cup and drop-off.

305
00:25:56,790 --> 00:25:57,230
Yeah.

306
00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:04,190
There would be a limited amount of parking at the very front of the school for guests.

307
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:09,270
And, you know, we had a lot of visitors and guests were an enrollment-based school.

308
00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:13,130
We want families to come visit, and it's kind of disappointing when they can't park

309
00:26:13,130 --> 00:26:13,690
in the front.

310
00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:18,590
And they have to find their way to the front entrance by parking in the gym or the dining

311
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:18,810
hall.

312
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:27,770
So in the future, and again, you know, parking isn't real exciting money for donors to

313
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:28,290
give toward.

314
00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:34,670
so I'm not promising a parking being a high priority because we do meet our

315
00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:39,850
general needs with parking. But long-term we would love to have much more

316
00:26:39,850 --> 00:26:45,250
parking in the front and that would allow a connecting without going out in

317
00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:51,370
the park would drive from the gym parking lot to the dining hall parking lot with

318
00:26:51,370 --> 00:26:56,890
kind of angular parking that would designate the direction of traffic flow.

319
00:26:56,890 --> 00:27:04,810
So sometimes we have people going backwards in our current circular drive because parking

320
00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:10,190
is parallel, so it's hard to know which way should I go if I'm a guest and not familiar

321
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:10,810
with the campus?

322
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:12,550
So you would make it a one-way?

323
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:14,010
It would be a one-way.

324
00:27:14,410 --> 00:27:14,930
Great.

325
00:27:15,210 --> 00:27:15,930
That would be a great idea.

326
00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:25,410
Any eventual desire to try to connect the elementary school in a driving way where you

327
00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:29,450
drive from one side to the other. My only concern being just that I know there's

328
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:35,010
like a gestion on 32, particularly in early morning and in the afternoon for pickup.

329
00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:41,850
And I would be concerned about traffic trying to leave the campus through the

330
00:27:41,850 --> 00:27:45,330
elementary school or just curious if there'd be any attempt to try to do that.

331
00:27:46,090 --> 00:27:51,630
Topography really doesn't allow for that and is why we have forced

332
00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:56,770
worst parents of elementary students to park in the gym parking lot.

333
00:27:57,010 --> 00:28:03,570
So there really is very limited really for handicap accessibility or elderly, only there

334
00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:04,790
at the elementary side.

335
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:09,470
And we like kids to walk, so we're good with the footbridge.

336
00:28:10,110 --> 00:28:10,690
Thank you.

337
00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:16,550
It looks like, and I'm just on Google Maps over here, there's about five.

338
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:17,510
Oh no.

339
00:28:18,170 --> 00:28:18,250
Yeah.

340
00:28:18,250 --> 00:28:21,790
for especially that's again we partner with

341
00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:27,290
What's now called in that mission? Yeah, Virginia Mennonite missions with that parking lot

342
00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:28,770
pretty regularly

343
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:38,660
And and some of the one of the plans also for the for the loop behind the school was to also provide for a Q and Q

344
00:28:38,660 --> 00:28:40,520
Inline there for the elementary school

345
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:46,640
So that's part of it also trying to get a traffic in there instead of anybody who went out to 42 which yeah

346
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,600
I mean, this actually concentrates everything in two entrances.

347
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,280
It's better than, I mean, right now, there are like one, two, three, four, or five,

348
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,980
therefore, there are four entrances.

349
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,480
So we'll limit the two, well, it will be three with a double entrance over here,

350
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:07,200
but on the west side, but we're trying to minimize that also because of conflict and

351
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,740
traffic, and then having a better circulation works for everybody in and out.

352
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:15,060
Because I haven't, having also a child before there, I know how it is.

353
00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:16,720
some of the people trying to get out of this.

354
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:19,000
It makes it a little bit difficult.

355
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,040
So yeah, I think it's great in that too.

356
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:29,460
It's just all seems really complicated for something

357
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:30,780
that ought to be fairly simple.

358
00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:33,820
I think it was a good question.

359
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:37,480
But you know what you're doing?

360
00:29:37,780 --> 00:29:40,440
So I'm like, you've planned it well, I guess.

361
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:41,220
Thank you.

362
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:45,140
Art, before you step away, please

363
00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:46,640
both state your name and trust me.

364
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,480
I apologize.

365
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:54,560
Thank you all for your comment with comment engineer and we're presenting EMS and Paul layman head of school at Easterman night school

366
00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:57,620
Thank you. Thank you. All right

367
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:28,420
So we're on the roof there with a thousand. Right. Still there. Yep. Working well. All right. We're ready to keep on. All right. With that, I will open the public hearing on this matter, on these matters. By dating room, once to speak, come forward. And anyone not physically here can call in 540-437-2687. And please, please come forward.

368
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,000
Good evening, members of the commission.

369
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,000
My name is Ron March on the owner of Sitmeats at Harrisonburg, we're a dog training franchise.

370
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:45,880
I've been working with the city zoning staff for.

371
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,620
Chair Baugh, I think he, I think you mean to come to the mayor's office to talk about the matter.

372
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:51,880
Oh, sorry.

373
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,500
All right.

374
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:55,460
We'll give you a try to give it a try.

375
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:59,060
In the meantime, I'll be looking the back.

376
00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:02,580
You get five, four, zero, four, three, seven, two, six, eight, seven.

377
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:03,620
For anybody on the wishes.

378
00:31:03,860 --> 00:31:04,160
Get a comment.

379
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,500
On the proposed plan, the best plan amendments

380
00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:10,900
for Eastern Midnight School and parking issue.

381
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,780
Appreciate your enthusiasm, though.

382
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Yeah.

383
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,080
Okay.

384
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:22,840
Is that a?

385
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,180
There's a lot of clear on the windows.

386
00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:36,820
I guess

387
00:31:41,340 --> 00:31:46,800
my question comes down to be take these separate layer together.

388
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,580
Any objection to taking it together?

389
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,740
Unless somebody wants to speak further on separately.

390
00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:59,340
So I don't mean the only thing I'm thinking is since we recently had a work session in

391
00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:08,040
large part on parking and on this kind of issue, I am thinking again about why this is

392
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,120
before planning commission and I'm struggling to think of a reason why I would ever vote

393
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,440
no for something like this.

394
00:32:17,620 --> 00:32:23,320
So I think that's something to consider in this or any reform process.

395
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:24,440
Yeah.

396
00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:25,500
I have a similar question.

397
00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:28,900
Why do we even need to go through this?

398
00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:29,560
Sorry.

399
00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:32,780
I mean, in the ordinances that it requires to, but that's correct.

400
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,780
There ought to be some way of streamlining, I guess I would say.

401
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,980
You can do what you want with your parking, I don't know.

402
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,420
Staff will speak to that.

403
00:32:41,420 --> 00:32:48,500
Well, we've proposed some amendments from the last work session we were seeking your input on what those numbers and

404
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:53,880
values should be if we should just, I think what we've proposed is for public schools.

405
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:07,400
K-312, that it would be determined based on the public school entity, for private schools, we would consider their parking with their special exception review.

406
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,260
consider a parking plan at that time.

407
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,380
I'm going off of them right here. I don't

408
00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:19,660
know that we've resolved the colleges and universities questions. Right we

409
00:33:19,660 --> 00:33:23,460
haven't resolved that part yet but still working throughout. Yeah meaning for

410
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:24,940
private colleges and universities.

411
00:33:27,650 --> 00:33:28,790
I mean is there I mean it might

412
00:33:31,730 --> 00:33:32,390
be a number

413
00:33:32,390 --> 00:33:36,910
but out of the existing ordinance we've got a master plan and you're gonna

414
00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:43,690
the change in, you've got to come tell them to come out and, like so, I hope it will be

415
00:33:43,690 --> 00:33:48,230
part of the looking at streamlining for things that look like they could be handed

416
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:50,970
and straight away with that. Can't do that tonight.

417
00:33:52,410 --> 00:33:57,670
That's right not to make a mess this motion. I move that we approve the request from Eastern

418
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:05,490
Minonite School to approve the required number of off-street parking spaces and also approve

419
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:12,290
their request to amend the master plan at 7-1-801 Parkwood Drive and at 12-51 Virginia Avenue.

420
00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:20,410
Second. All right, there's a motion by Vice Chair Porter. Number of seconds, I'll give it to

421
00:34:20,410 --> 00:34:26,370
Commissioner Chessier and this has to take up both of these together. I'm getting asked before.

422
00:34:26,770 --> 00:34:32,590
No objection to that. All right, so voice vote again, we're taking both these matters together.

423
00:34:32,590 --> 00:34:34,550
but that was both wrong, all please.

424
00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:38,550
Commissioner Jezior.

425
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:39,130
Hi.

426
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:41,010
Vice Chair Porter.

427
00:34:41,670 --> 00:34:41,810
Hi.

428
00:34:42,210 --> 00:34:43,170
Council Member Dan.

429
00:34:43,650 --> 00:34:43,810
Hi.

430
00:34:44,510 --> 00:34:45,250
Commissioner Catler.

431
00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:45,750
Hi.

432
00:34:46,370 --> 00:34:46,830
Chair Bob.

433
00:34:47,530 --> 00:34:47,690
Hi.

434
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:51,710
So these go forward with favorable recommendations.

435
00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:54,870
City Council, October 15th, that'd be right.

436
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:57,230
I anticipate it.

437
00:34:57,230 --> 00:34:58,010
Go ahead and do it again.

438
00:35:00,660 --> 00:35:22,860
Okay. Yes, that is correct. Thank you very much. All right. Next two items will be taken together separately. They would be separately. Okay, then we'll start with item 4c. Requests to amend the definition of dwelling single family within the zoning ordinance to include qualifying manufactured homes.

439
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,400
Good evening. My name is near Muscle. I'm a planner. What community development?

440
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,980
Okay, so this is the first

441
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:47,160
First of two zoning ordinance amendments that are as a result of recent changes in state legislation.

442
00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:56,460
So in 2026, the General Assembly of Virginia enacted SB 346 and its companion bill HB 655,

443
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:07,560
which amended sections 15.2-2247 and 15.2-2290 of the code of Virginia related to manufactured housing.

444
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:20,500
This requires localities to allow the placement of manufactured homes in all zoning districts where site built housing is permitted and prohibits localities from treating manufactured homes differently.

445
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:28,500
If approved, the zoning ordinance amendments will bring the zoning ordinance into compliance with the code of Virginia.

446
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:29,560
The

447
00:36:31,830 --> 00:36:42,470
change mimics the language in the code, which is just simply adding manufactured homes to the definition of single-family dwelling.

448
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:58,990
So this use, the part there in yellow orange, is what is added to the definition that the use includes a manufactured home provided that the manufactured home is one converted to real property in accordance with the code of Virginia.

449
00:36:58,990 --> 00:37:07,290
to construct it so that the certificate of occupancy is issued within five years of the date of manufacture and placed on individual lots.

450
00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:22,950
So, to convert to real property according to that section 46.253.1, the advocate would have to remove all mobility equipment, surrender their DMV title, and file an affidavit of

451
00:37:25,970 --> 00:37:36,870
We would have to establish procedures to work with them to ensure that they can comply with the state requirements while at the same time complying with building codes.

452
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:44,230
There's a little bit of a check in and a going there, but we will work that out with the permitting process.

453
00:37:45,610 --> 00:37:49,730
foundation permits would still be, building permits would still be required for the foundation

454
00:37:49,730 --> 00:37:55,490
and for the placement and then utility connections would require their permits as well.

455
00:37:58,530 --> 00:38:03,810
The second item there that the certificate of occupancy be issued within five years of

456
00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:11,720
the data manufacturer means that when a unit receives that certificate of occupancy it is

457
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:13,800
there's no older than five years.

458
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,700
And then finally being placed on individual lots means it's a single family home on its

459
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:22,080
own lot, not a manufactured park.

460
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,740
The other section, 15.2, 2247 is not affected.

461
00:38:32,180 --> 00:38:36,460
Our zoning ordinance already complies with the state regulations.

462
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,160
So staff recommends approval of the zoning ordinance amendment.

463
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,620
Do you have any questions?

464
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:53,030
I don't remember exactly the way this came from federal state or just technology advancements.

465
00:38:53,350 --> 00:39:04,330
As I recall somewhere, many factored homes are approved or beginning to be made without the chassis or any other mobility equipment as it said,

466
00:39:04,690 --> 00:39:09,050
so that they're designed to be just permanently installed on a foundation.

467
00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:14,590
So in any case it either has to be removed or it doesn't have it in the first place, right?

468
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:19,090
Well the chassis would remain, it's just the mobility equipment that would be removed.

469
00:39:19,810 --> 00:39:24,510
I mean in the love of our future, not in the future of won't even have the chassis for the mobility.

470
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:32,450
So the state definition and our definition includes that chassis.

471
00:39:34,290 --> 00:39:42,290
the federal changes that have still haven't gone through the whole rule-making process

472
00:39:42,290 --> 00:39:47,910
from what I understand of the rule that HUD put out would be that the second story,

473
00:39:48,410 --> 00:39:53,450
there are some manufactured homes that are two stories and that second story would

474
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:57,890
not be required to have a chassis, but that first story still would.

475
00:39:57,890 --> 00:39:57,970
Good.

476
00:40:00,270 --> 00:40:02,850
But it's still in rulemaking, it's still in flux.

477
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:29,580
Yeah, I think that's where I was thinking of it. The new road to home federal legislation. Yeah, but this zoning ordinance amendment brings us into compliance with the state regulation. Okay, thanks. Which means we don't really have an option. Pass it. Yeah, that was my question. There are options on here. No, you don't have to do it. You'll just be bound by it, even though you didn't.

478
00:40:29,580 --> 00:40:32,740
I read this as confusion.

479
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:36,730
Anything else to stand?

480
00:40:38,810 --> 00:40:40,310
All right, thank you.

481
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:43,930
And I will go ahead and open public hearing on this.

482
00:40:44,290 --> 00:40:48,930
So anyone who wishes to come forward to speak on this provoked proposed zoning ordinance,

483
00:40:48,970 --> 00:40:49,950
please come forward.

484
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:54,610
Otherwise, we'll keep in line open for a minute or so.

485
00:40:55,590 --> 00:40:58,570
540-437-2687.

486
00:41:38,830 --> 00:41:40,650
All right, I've got a signal that no one's calls.

487
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:51,250
I'm excited for the possibilities of lowering housing costs and also we have to.

488
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,960
And I think this is a recognition that manufactured housing is the quality is improved significantly.

489
00:42:01,420 --> 00:42:06,040
There's some of the standards that some of these bills are being held to now are extremely high.

490
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:14,660
And I think it's a wise choice on behalf of the legislature to make this opportunity available for people

491
00:42:14,660 --> 00:42:18,160
and eliminate some of these barriers to folks

492
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,600
being able to live in these types of homes.

493
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,920
And I think when more of these get built,

494
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,200
I think people will probably have no idea

495
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,220
that they are a manufacturer.

496
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:29,860
Right.

497
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,580
Or note that there was a time

498
00:42:32,580 --> 00:42:33,720
if you brought up these issues.

499
00:42:39,930 --> 00:42:42,190
Yes, I'm glad it's becoming a non-issue.

500
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,240
Motion to recommend approval

501
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:49,460
of the zoning ordinance amendment

502
00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:50,520
as presented by staff.

503
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:51,280
Second.

504
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,600
All right, moved by commission.

505
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,560
and seconded by Council Member Denny. Any additional discussion?

506
00:42:59,620 --> 00:43:00,640
All right, roll call of it, please.

507
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,100
Council Member Denny.

508
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:02,680
Aye.

509
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:05,000
Commissioner Dutton.

510
00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:05,960
Aye.

511
00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:07,640
Commissioner Dutton.

512
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:08,360
Aye.

513
00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:09,460
Vice Chair Mourn.

514
00:43:09,660 --> 00:43:09,820
Aye.

515
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:10,860
Chair Mourn.

516
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:11,180
Aye.

517
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,960
All right, so it goes forward to see Council favor for recommendation.

518
00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:20,510
It gets us to item 4D.

519
00:43:21,350 --> 00:43:28,090
Request them in zoning wardeners to reduce them in one way with their single family detached dwellings in the R8 district.

520
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:33,360
Okay, and you're a must awful planner with community development.

521
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:49,640
In this case, General Assembly of Virginia enacted HV 1212, which amended the code of Virginia by adding section 15.2-2286.2 relating to small lot residential zoning districts.

522
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,400
requirements. The requirement is that a single family dwelling that every jurisdiction

523
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:06,420
have a zoning district that allows for lots that are do not exceed 3,000 square feet

524
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:13,180
and a minimum lot with not to exceed 30 feet. The R8 district already allows for lot sizes

525
00:44:13,180 --> 00:44:20,280
of 2,800 feet the lot width is currently 35 feet so it would be a matter of lowering it to 30 feet.

526
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:27,780
The change then is simply that changing the lot width from 35 to 30.

527
00:44:28,580 --> 00:44:30,020
That's a minimum, right?

528
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:30,840
Yes.

529
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,000
And this would bring us in compliance with the state regulations.

530
00:44:35,780 --> 00:44:38,700
So staff recommends approval of the zoning ordinance amendment.

531
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:44,510
And again, we don't have to, but we're bound by, so I might as well.

532
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,900
I guess I'm going to ask staff, is this something that you generally support?

533
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,920
I mean, it's a small change, but it is an important change.

534
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,980
And I'm just curious, you would have-

535
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:30,560
There are some concerns with driveways. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Does that mean they might not have room for a driveway or however it might, however the layout might work? If they build it where it's 30 feet of lot width, that means there's just a lot more driveways serving each of the single-family homes. And it's also, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Russ, your findings are that this isn't a

536
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:36,920
And a number, a lot with number that is uncommon in the state, if doesn't exist.

537
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:53,160
Yeah, virtually every urban area, by right districts, rather than a district you'd have to rezone to, 50 feet wide, is 50 or 60 feet wide, is relatively standard.

538
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:59,460
Charlottesville's the only one with something smaller at 40 in the house, but most urban

539
00:46:01,980 --> 00:46:08,440
areas, yeah, their by-right districts are on 50 and then you rezone and address things

540
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:09,760
like driveways in the process.

541
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,680
Also, again, you may not be able to speak to this, but I just find it interesting that communities

542
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,820
that are less than 50,000 citizens are exempted from this are not included in this change

543
00:46:22,820 --> 00:46:29,620
I don't understand the rationale in terms of and you may not be able to explain it either. I don't need them. I'm sorry. Yeah, I have a question.

544
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:35,350
Yeah, it captures us.

545
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:41,210
It's a bit more than 50. Yeah, it captures up. We're right around there. And I haven't looked at it lately.

546
00:46:42,410 --> 00:46:45,370
The Charlotte's Villainville, the two that are around their size.

547
00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:49,830
And everybody else is either considered more so, but less.

548
00:46:51,330 --> 00:46:56,830
Yeah, my sense that I mean, I'm pretty sure because I knew a situation in Richmond where I think it was especially used to be.

549
00:46:56,830 --> 00:46:58,550
prevent item to do lower.

550
00:46:59,590 --> 00:47:02,370
And I think, and my instinct tells me that it's driven

551
00:47:03,010 --> 00:47:05,130
by the more urban jurisdictions.

552
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:09,190
And yeah, you can make an argument

553
00:47:09,190 --> 00:47:13,290
that it really wouldn't be the end of the world for Harrison

554
00:47:13,290 --> 00:47:13,850
Murray to

555
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,120
35 would probably be OK, as well.

556
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,280
But please feel free to lobby your local market

557
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,820
representatives in Richmond to amend this if you think

558
00:47:27,820 --> 00:47:33,580
I think that's appropriate because we got what we got, but yeah, I know some picnic

559
00:47:33,580 --> 00:47:39,420
bridge, but I know some infill projects where I don't know, they might be 30 feet, I mean,

560
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:46,380
they've managed to get some sort of infill in sort of older areas with sort of narrow town

561
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:52,830
house kind of structures on it, so if somebody obviously thought it was a good idea, I'm just

562
00:47:52,830 --> 00:47:53,870
to everyone.

563
00:47:54,910 --> 00:47:55,610
I don't know.

564
00:47:56,910 --> 00:47:58,050
Anything else on staff?

565
00:48:00,780 --> 00:48:02,460
All right, thank you.

566
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,060
Now I'll open public hearing into this.

567
00:48:05,180 --> 00:48:08,120
And by anyone here who wishes to speak to this proposed,

568
00:48:08,660 --> 00:48:10,300
there's only one that's amendment to come forward.

569
00:48:10,740 --> 00:48:12,420
Otherwise the phone line is open.

570
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,780
540-437-2687.

571
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:54,550
I'm getting a signal of no call.

572
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:56,470
So we'll close public hearing.

573
00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:04,700
At a certain point I wonder how meaningful.

574
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:14,220
Reducing the minimum amount with, or having a minimum amount with, it is small, lot, single family home

575
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:19,900
Developments just because the effective limit there is really side-setbacks

576
00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:27,160
Because I mean in this even if you have a side-setback of five feet, you have a house. It's only that's 20 feet wide and

577
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,400
Not a whole much more small or you can make it narrow narrowly at that point

578
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:50,520
So I mean the driveway point I think is well taken and I think that in the zoning reform process there's probably going to be needing more discussion about what functional changes might be needed.

579
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,140
I'm thinking in particular of like the townhouse regulations.

580
00:49:56,820 --> 00:49:59,840
But in terms of this change, I mean, once again.

581
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,420
We have to do so to make sure a little difference.

582
00:50:03,790 --> 00:50:32,560
Yeah, and especially since all right, it's also designed to be higher density, right? Like, duplex is by right, and I bring that right. And can you apply for a triplex? I don't remember exactly how that goes. You can apply to have a town home. Yeah, town a road town homes. Right. So they're obviously the minimum you think wider than that. And are there minimums for say a duplex side by side or a town home?

583
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,660
There's a lot area dimensions and a lot width dimensions.

584
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,460
So this is strictly for the single family that it's minimum 30.

585
00:50:42,820 --> 00:50:43,280
That's correct.

586
00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:51,230
And I doubt that there's an answer to this, but do we know how many potential infield

587
00:50:51,230 --> 00:50:55,270
lots in our community might be affected by this that might make it easier for someone to be

588
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:55,690
able to build?

589
00:50:55,890 --> 00:50:56,970
I mean, do we have a sense?

590
00:50:57,250 --> 00:50:57,950
I don't know if there's a.

591
00:50:58,690 --> 00:51:04,450
It's probably a very involved question, but just.

592
00:51:04,450 --> 00:51:07,290
be curious to find out if it actually affects anything.

593
00:51:07,390 --> 00:51:12,170
In this district, for RA, there's only a handful of lots

594
00:51:12,170 --> 00:51:16,610
that are that zoning district right now.

595
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:21,590
And very few of them are a string of RA properties

596
00:51:21,590 --> 00:51:25,210
where you'd be able to go from five lots to six or something.

597
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:30,790
So in practice, I don't know that there's really

598
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:32,550
anything that could squeezed out of this.

599
00:51:32,550 --> 00:51:39,390
Yes. Well, are there areas that are zone R8? I've only seen it as a spot rezoning.

600
00:51:39,810 --> 00:51:45,570
That's correct. That's how properties become zone R8. When we created the R8 district,

601
00:51:45,850 --> 00:51:52,190
we did not, on the city's initiative zone properties, R8. So people have had to come

602
00:51:52,190 --> 00:51:55,150
through a rezoning process to become R8.

603
00:51:57,100 --> 00:52:01,300
Can I ask what that looks like in the proposed rewrite? I know that might be given a little

604
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:03,080
over the head, but what would that look like?

605
00:52:03,860 --> 00:52:06,920
What would that zone be called and?

606
00:52:07,660 --> 00:52:11,940
It would be the earth, I'm getting the urban residential

607
00:52:11,940 --> 00:52:12,520
district.

608
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,340
Is that the right name kind of urban neighborhood?

609
00:52:15,660 --> 00:52:17,600
Yeah, residential district.

610
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:20,440
So that would impact more properties.

611
00:52:21,660 --> 00:52:24,120
Some of the more older, non-conforming properties

612
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:25,400
that are already fairly close,

613
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,360
and some maybe a little bit wider.

614
00:52:35,340 --> 00:52:36,960
I mean, I'm not sure I'm impactful since of being,

615
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:45,220
that I appreciate the mindset of our legislature attempting to try to make it easier to build in general.

616
00:52:45,380 --> 00:52:52,180
It seems like that that's a, particularly with the ADU change, I just appreciate the fact

617
00:52:52,180 --> 00:52:57,000
that there's some attempt to try to simplify the process, make it a little bit more accessible,

618
00:52:57,180 --> 00:53:01,340
easier to be able to build, and even though this is kind of nibbling around the edges,

619
00:53:01,340 --> 00:53:04,060
is it is, it widens the strike zone, never so slightly.

620
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,400
So I appreciate it.

621
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,280
Yeah, I can't help but think it really, really what this is

622
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,780
targeted with, which kind of does, does it really apply to us

623
00:53:12,780 --> 00:53:14,120
in our current big regions?

624
00:53:14,300 --> 00:53:16,600
I go back to places I know of where this has come up

625
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,680
in Richmond's where you have older residential and narrow

626
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,660
lots with zero setbacks.

627
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:29,460
And somebody wants to do this and when it's something

628
00:53:29,460 --> 00:53:34,920
and especially use permit item, you get a lot of objection to it, just because people

629
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,200
just sort of decided they don't want another house of the neighborhood.

630
00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:42,980
And that kind of, you know, when you're sitting there going, well, they want to build one

631
00:53:42,980 --> 00:53:43,280
in there.

632
00:53:43,420 --> 00:53:45,060
Why not let them?

633
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,760
I can't help but think that those types of things are the driver here again.

634
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:55,020
We start saying, where is our section of old zero setback, where is it eventually this

635
00:53:55,020 --> 00:53:57,980
And I

636
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,900
agree with you, Vice Chair Porter, in terms of the general direction assembly is

637
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:11,960
taken with respect to some of the land use options and increasing housing options.

638
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:18,740
It seems like relatively modest changes, keeping in mind that it's a wide variety of localities

639
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:23,420
that's being affected, but I think they're modest steps to the right direction.

640
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,120
And that's the thing about being a deal in rural stages when they're making these things

641
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:33,480
they have to, they plot everywhere, or although in this case it's cities that are over

642
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:34,440
50,000 people.

643
00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:42,120
Well, and there was the case where we considered it overreach, leaving on the ML influence,

644
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:48,040
the proposed legislation that said you must be able to build by right, multi-family and

645
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,840
all commercial districts and whatever variations it were.

646
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,080
We said, wait a minute, that would negate what we do in Planning Commission and Dunning.

647
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,980
So we in general want to...

648
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:08,120
From preserved local authority, however, I do appreciate the state making these efforts to make it easier to build housing.

649
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:08,780
We're

650
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,760
supposed to check the Charlottesville and Danville, but we can cut.

651
00:55:17,620 --> 00:55:20,360
So it is similar, after us it's much worse, so yeah.

652
00:55:20,460 --> 00:55:24,120
Danville's population has actually decreased considerably over the last two years, yeah.

653
00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:28,100
And Charlottesville is smaller than us.

654
00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:29,240
That was a surprise.

655
00:55:31,940 --> 00:55:34,760
The city limits, the metropolitan areas are larger.

656
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:35,300
True, right.

657
00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:37,860
The population of the city yet.

658
00:55:40,180 --> 00:55:43,840
Motion to recommend approval of his only ordinance amendment as presented by staff.

659
00:55:44,180 --> 00:55:44,520
Second.

660
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:45,340
All right.

661
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:46,040
Move by.

662
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:46,400
Connect.

663
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:47,500
Commissioner Kettler.

664
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:49,700
Seconded by Vice Chair Porter.

665
00:55:50,340 --> 00:55:51,320
For the discussion.

666
00:55:52,780 --> 00:55:53,920
We'll call the police.

667
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:56,220
Aye.

668
00:55:57,060 --> 00:55:57,640
Vice Chair Porter.

669
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:58,360
Aye.

670
00:55:59,200 --> 00:55:59,760
Vice Chair Porter.

671
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:00,060
Vice Chair Judger.

672
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:00,780
Aye.

673
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:01,880
House member Dan.

674
00:56:02,340 --> 00:56:02,500
Aye.

675
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:03,260
Chair Bob.

676
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:04,020
Aye.

677
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:08,540
So those two goes forward to City Council with a favorable recommendation.

678
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:10,120
All right.

679
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:13,480
Which gets us over the new business other items first.

680
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:21,120
Request initiates zoning ordinance amendment to sections 10-3-110-H related to refuse collection

681
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:21,640
facility.

682
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:22,580
Yes, thank you.

683
00:56:22,980 --> 00:56:26,760
So, this is a request for a zoning ordinance amendment, but I'm going to give a little

684
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:31,260
bit of background of how, why we're doing it, so I'm going to talk about the solid waste

685
00:56:31,260 --> 00:56:36,940
ordinance in section 6238 of the solid waste ordinance.

686
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,880
It requires that apartment and townhome developments of six or more dwelling units provide their

687
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,240
own private refuse collection, which move the city doesn't pick up from them.

688
00:56:47,420 --> 00:56:52,180
Over the last year, maybe year and a half, we've had some conversations with some local

689
00:56:53,060 --> 00:57:00,320
smaller developers who have expressed the expense of having to provide the dumpster facilities

690
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:05,240
or private collection facilities, not just for the area that's dedicated for the storage

691
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:12,000
of the trash collection, but also for the vehicles, the dumps, private dump trucks coming onto

692
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:18,240
the site and having the maneuver to do the pickup. So our staff at community development

693
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,980
have been working and having communications with the public works department staff and

694
00:57:22,980 --> 00:57:27,320
I think Mr. Russ was in one of those meetings with us as well just brainstorming on what we

695
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:36,940
could do to change what the city's requirements are. So alongside a zoning ordinance amendment,

696
00:57:37,820 --> 00:57:51,660
which I'll talk about in a moment, we're also working on drafting a solid waste ordinance amendments to be presented to City Council that would allow for developments of townhomes and apartments that have,

697
00:57:52,360 --> 00:58:04,200
let me make sure I say the number right, I think it's six between six and 11 units, that option to request City collection.

698
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:13,800
So city total service the ordinance amendment to the zoning ordinance would be to apply the screening and

699
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:21,380
location requirements for where the storage of the total cans are. So that if they collect them all, you know,

700
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:27,060
together in an area, they're still going to have to screen them and place them at the same locations on their

701
00:58:27,060 --> 00:58:33,960
property that we would limit private collections to. So that is what we are proposing to bring to you all

702
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,500
in the future and requests that you allow us to initiate.

703
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:48,700
So at this be changing in from one large dumpster to individual cans at each unit?

704
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:55,720
So yes, and also know that when somebody has to provide private collection service,

705
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,880
they could provide private totor service, but we usually see dumpsters.

706
00:59:00,380 --> 00:59:03,380
But there have been a few developments that have proposed private.

707
00:59:03,380 --> 00:59:09,040
So, but generally I think what we would see is instead of the dumpster as you describe,

708
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,640
we would have a collection of city toters on the property.

709
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,740
And then let me add also that when it comes to trash collection day,

710
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:27,200
the residents would have to pull their totor cans to the public street because our city sanitation crews do not enter upon the private property to do the property.

711
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:31,080
That was going to be my question, is if there was a private street that had been created

712
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,080
to create the development, whether you would come onto that street or not.

713
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:35,000
We would not.

714
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,320
Well, it's not a question, but it's a statement.

715
00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:48,000
My day job is with Habitat for Humanity, and we build a lot of, we'll be building a lot

716
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,460
of these types of smaller developments.

717
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:56,740
And this is a wonderful thing to provide some flexibility to allow people to have this option.

718
00:59:59,460 --> 00:59:59,980
Some of the

719
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:21,220
These general, you know, a lot of times when we're developing, we want to sell all these properties off and then we don't want to have an HOA or some other overlay to be able to handle things like trash collection. So this allows people to effectively to access the city services and pay the fees. And I think it's an outstanding change. So thank you for considering it.

720
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:36,860
I'm going to go ahead and make motion now. If no one else has anything they want to say. Okay, it's just a little longer. I move that the planning commission

721
01:00:36,860 --> 01:01:04,440
initiated consideration of zoning ordinance amendments to the city of Harrisonburg zoning ordinance to amend provisions related to a refuse collection of facilities, the planning commission finds that such amendments are required by the public necessity convenience general welfare and good zoning practice and hereby direct staff to prepare appropriate draft ordinances for public hearings recommendations in accordance with section 15.2-2286 of the code of Virginia.

722
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:04,540
Yeah.

723
01:01:05,460 --> 01:01:06,060
Second.

724
01:01:06,740 --> 01:01:07,160
All right.

725
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:08,740
Moved by Commissioner Kepler.

726
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:10,220
Seconded by Commissioner Jezio.

727
01:01:10,660 --> 01:01:11,840
You know the discussion.

728
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:15,040
Roll call vote, please.

729
01:01:15,940 --> 01:01:16,820
Commissioner Jezio.

730
01:01:17,220 --> 01:01:17,820
Hi.

731
01:01:18,220 --> 01:01:18,940
Council member dead.

732
01:01:19,460 --> 01:01:19,640
Aye.

733
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:20,600
Vice Chair for.

734
01:01:21,020 --> 01:01:21,260
Aye.

735
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:22,380
Vice Chair Kepler.

736
01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:22,880
Aye.

737
01:01:23,340 --> 01:01:23,520
Chair for.

738
01:01:23,820 --> 01:01:24,100
Aye.

739
01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:27,360
Go forth and talk.

740
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:27,880
Aye.

741
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:29,060
All right.

742
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:30,740
Item five.

743
01:01:30,740 --> 01:01:33,380
Be consider appointing Nermus Sofil.

744
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,380
Sofil has planning commissions.

745
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:36,620
Deputy Secretary.

746
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:37,560
I want to say aye.

747
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:49,120
So as you all are aware, the by-law state that the secretary would serve at the request

748
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:54,300
of the commission and that they be elected every January, currently in the stage among

749
01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:59,100
Tigny is that person who was appointed by the planning commission in January, and she's

750
01:01:59,100 --> 01:02:05,080
been absent for the past few meetings until she returns we'd like to ask that you appoint

751
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,580
Ms. Soffold to be the deputy secretary.

752
01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:10,760
Sir, motion to that final.

753
01:02:11,660 --> 01:02:12,280
That's how to move.

754
01:02:13,300 --> 01:02:13,660
Second.

755
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:14,500
Thank you.

756
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,260
Mr. Kettler, seconded by Vice Chair Porter.

757
01:02:21,140 --> 01:02:22,660
Waste mode, all the favor say aye.

758
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:23,260
Aye.

759
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:24,440
Opposed no.

760
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:26,200
Congratulations.

761
01:02:27,460 --> 01:02:28,220
All right.

762
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,780
Item 5C, discuss future amendments

763
01:02:30,780 --> 01:02:32,180
to planning commission bylaws.

764
01:02:32,660 --> 01:02:37,280
Yes, so included in your packet is a copy of the bylaws

765
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,660
that was last amended in June of 2022.

766
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,520
I'd like to propose, you all don't wouldn't vote on it today,

767
01:02:45,540 --> 01:02:48,340
but I'd like to kind of use this opportunity

768
01:02:48,340 --> 01:02:52,880
to one propose an amendment and also open the opportunity

769
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,040
to see if there's other amendments that you all would like

770
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,240
to entertain that we could present to you all

771
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:58,220
at the next meeting.

772
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:03,520
What I'd like to propose is an amendment to section 4.4-1

773
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,940
related to the item that you all just voted on

774
01:03:05,940 --> 01:03:12,520
about the secretary wanting to amend it to state to change the language so that it would

775
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:17,420
state that the director of community development would designate an employee of the city of

776
01:03:17,420 --> 01:03:21,860
Harrisonburg to serve as secretary and that would address any kind of future turnover

777
01:03:21,860 --> 01:03:27,560
things that mean absences that we might have. And then we would amend section 42 to make

778
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:34,640
it all work together as well. But is there any other section that you all and I could give

779
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,940
all another week or so to kind of think about it and get back to us if anything

780
01:03:37,940 --> 01:03:38,740
comes up.

781
01:03:48,590 --> 01:03:52,370
Yeah yeah and then we'll bring back to you the amendments at the

782
01:03:52,370 --> 01:03:52,890
next meeting.

783
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,280
Thank you. All right next item is public comment so we will

784
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:08,480
invite anybody to come forward who wants to speak to us on anything that's not a

785
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:13,940
matter on tonight's agenda so please march if you want come forward again and we

786
01:04:13,940 --> 01:04:17,540
We also have the phone line open for anybody who wants to call in.

787
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:22,520
Again, that number is 540-437-268-7.

788
01:04:23,580 --> 01:04:25,420
Yeah, I apologize for interrupting earlier.

789
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,840
I've never done this before, so, yeah, I'm Ron March.

790
01:04:29,300 --> 01:04:32,060
I own, it means that Harrison Byrd, we're a dog training business.

791
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:39,300
I've been trying to find a location to do on site facility style dog training, which

792
01:04:39,300 --> 01:04:43,500
is a little bit different than what most people know is dog training since December.

793
01:04:44,820 --> 01:04:51,740
and unfortunately the M1 zoning has not worked out too well for me and so what I

794
01:04:51,740 --> 01:04:55,480
wanted to bring to you today is that I believe that there's a running to an

795
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:59,720
issue with the current that the current ordinance did not anticipate.

796
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:15,560
Currently, the city classifies paid dog training in the same category as kennel operations. I don't operate a kennel, I don't operate a daycare, we don't house dogs overnight. So that kind of puts me in a tough place.

797
01:05:17,300 --> 01:05:26,280
Dogs come to me in the morning, usually around 9 a.m., and then go home to their family in the evening after I get done providing training to the families well.

798
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:32,780
So generally, I'm asking the council to consider whether this low impact use should be continued

799
01:05:32,780 --> 01:05:36,020
to be governed under like a high volume use, like canals.

800
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:43,120
And then first on comparison, B2 already permits a lot of animal related businesses, vets,

801
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:49,700
rumors, the retail stores have training right within the retail store, which would be a much

802
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:53,240
higher volume than a situation like mine or a similar business.

803
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:59,420
And then we also have puppy cells that are allowed, which is pretty high volume for things

804
01:05:59,420 --> 01:06:01,200
that you guys might consider waste, etc.

805
01:06:04,410 --> 01:06:11,090
Ultimately, what I'm really asking of the group today is to consider separating professional

806
01:06:11,090 --> 01:06:13,650
dog training without boarding from canal use.

807
01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:19,950
And I would like to seek this commission's feedback and permission to work with the zoning

808
01:06:19,950 --> 01:06:25,170
team to create a draft amendment to well animal services would be considered.

809
01:06:30,490 --> 01:06:34,890
Question of staff just related to exactly the point that was brought up that, for

810
01:06:34,890 --> 01:06:40,830
example, the pet smart has a training facility right within its store.

811
01:06:42,850 --> 01:06:46,890
And I'm not, I don't have the zoning map in front of me, but what is the zoning for

812
01:06:46,890 --> 01:06:50,870
that facility and how is that different than what he's proposing?

813
01:06:52,650 --> 01:06:59,750
So it is zone B2, the principal use of the pet smart would be the pet store.

814
01:07:00,050 --> 01:07:00,670
Yeah, retail.

815
01:07:00,830 --> 01:07:01,250
I can't remember.

816
01:07:01,390 --> 01:07:02,330
It's like a retail use.

817
01:07:03,030 --> 01:07:06,150
If they, I'm not aware that they have access.

818
01:07:06,610 --> 01:07:09,250
I know they have accessory uses in there.

819
01:07:10,290 --> 01:07:14,890
Wasn't aware of the dog training, but I suppose we would treat that as an accessory use to the,

820
01:07:15,370 --> 01:07:16,090
I'm not sure.

821
01:07:16,710 --> 01:07:23,670
And this would probably even low how many dogs would you be working with on a given day if I live my wireless dream or anybody that would have a

822
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:29,790
Similar business right because you guys have to consider all people that would start this I might have 10 dogs in a facility

823
01:07:29,790 --> 01:07:35,430
And that wouldn't mean I would need to have four to five trainers. So they're supervised the entire time

824
01:07:35,890 --> 01:07:41,770
It's not like a daycare where we have one person managing 10 dogs you go to lunch. It's on you know supervised

825
01:07:41,770 --> 01:07:45,710
were high end obedience, high distraction obedience.

826
01:07:46,090 --> 01:07:48,310
Now most of our time is spent in public spaces

827
01:07:48,310 --> 01:07:50,710
because that's where dogs have the most distraction.

828
01:07:50,910 --> 01:07:53,170
But the facility is very useful for dogs

829
01:07:53,170 --> 01:07:55,910
that are aggressive or very timid or things like that

830
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:57,570
so that we can get them in a great place

831
01:07:57,570 --> 01:07:59,950
before we bring them back out into this work community.

832
01:08:00,430 --> 01:08:02,150
How about the dogs be helped during the day?

833
01:08:02,350 --> 01:08:03,830
I mean, if you're not working with them directly

834
01:08:03,830 --> 01:08:06,130
because you're working with all 10 at once, right?

835
01:08:07,050 --> 01:08:07,510
No, no.

836
01:08:07,730 --> 01:08:11,230
And dogs can't work constantly for eight hours, right?

837
01:08:11,230 --> 01:08:13,390
we have to give them brakes, hydration, et cetera.

838
01:08:13,690 --> 01:08:16,830
So we would use candles, not like a boarding facility,

839
01:08:17,230 --> 01:08:19,110
like you'd have in the back of a vehicle.

840
01:08:19,330 --> 01:08:21,390
And we use particularly ridgeline candles

841
01:08:21,390 --> 01:08:24,270
in our case, which are high-impact molded,

842
01:08:24,290 --> 01:08:28,110
so that we're there with them, keeping them quiet.

843
01:08:28,210 --> 01:08:30,470
That's part of the training is noise control.

844
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:33,840
But your request is specific

845
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,460
because the issue is running into an M1.

846
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:40,300
Yeah, I can go into M1, but the challenge is

847
01:08:40,300 --> 01:08:41,520
it's very large spaces.

848
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:48,460
And so for a small business like me, now it's high cost, plus to be frank, the language

849
01:08:48,460 --> 01:08:51,660
in any of the leases is very predatory for a small business.

850
01:08:51,780 --> 01:08:56,500
I think if you're a large business, you can handle some of the risk that's there but dealing

851
01:08:56,500 --> 01:09:00,500
with my real estate broker, there's never been a good fit over the last nine months.

852
01:09:00,740 --> 01:09:06,640
So currently I've taken on a B2 as an office space, but the ideal outcome for me would be

853
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,240
and a smaller space like a B2 for the beard picture.

854
01:09:12,420 --> 01:09:16,680
Now, did you say that VETs and such are allowed in B2s?

855
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,700
Yeah, animal services defined as what VETs, groomers,

856
01:09:22,500 --> 01:09:26,160
or companion pet sales, a couple other things.

857
01:09:27,060 --> 01:09:29,860
Some maybe a solution would be to add to that list

858
01:09:29,860 --> 01:09:33,520
something like a non-boarding training or whatever it might be.

859
01:09:33,580 --> 01:09:34,680
That's what I would suggest, yeah.

860
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:35,720
All right,

861
01:09:39,210 --> 01:09:44,870
well, I think we get what you wanted to hear, let's go ahead and complete

862
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:48,890
the public comment period when you come back to this with that piece of information.

863
01:09:49,490 --> 01:09:49,810
Thank you.

864
01:09:50,010 --> 01:09:54,370
So, public hearing, I mean, the public comment period remains open if anybody else wants

865
01:09:54,370 --> 01:09:55,030
to come forward.

866
01:09:55,170 --> 01:09:57,550
Otherwise, I'll be looking at the back to see whether or not he's funded.

867
01:10:04,780 --> 01:10:33,120
And I'm getting a signal that no one's funded. And so we will close the public comment to get it. Now, before we move on, let's see if we want to talk a little bit about Mr. March. I mean, I guess mechanically, we're back to the thing where we need staff to recommend. You take some action to quite staff to really work on an ordinance. I think that would be the most direct way to proceed really, is that sound right?

868
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:39,640
Yeah, and I would, I would, my recommendation would it allow us to explore this as we,

869
01:10:39,740 --> 01:10:45,460
and we have been, and know that we have been, Mr. March has been working with one of our colleagues,

870
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:51,340
Mattigan Bright on this matter and she shared with us, you know, their discussions and what his hope is for.

871
01:10:51,740 --> 01:11:00,520
And the team of us that have been working on the zoning ordinance update, have been talking about all the animal related uses and how to make that fit in the ordinance.

872
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:12,560
So I would like to continue exploring it through that means and let us continue with that the other option that you have is to direct us to work it into the current ordinance, but that will take some time as well.

873
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:13,440
Yeah.

874
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,300
Does everybody okay with that?

875
01:11:18,300 --> 01:11:23,340
Then we've got sort of, we've got the sense that we'd like staff to continue to work on it with an eye-to-word,

876
01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:25,160
bringing some sort of proposed.

877
01:11:26,580 --> 01:11:30,980
Ultimately, that would be you come back to us for the proposal to officially move forward.

878
01:11:31,620 --> 01:11:37,520
Yeah, through the list of uses in the zoning ordinance update, so in conjunction with that project.

879
01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:44,740
Well, preferably to me, at least in the shorter term, not waiting till phase two, you know, month or year.

880
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:52,640
And again, to provide the potential applicant the opportunity to be able to move forward with the business site,

881
01:11:54,480 --> 01:12:01,800
is it reasonable to, and again, I don't know if this is under his purview or not, but is this something that Tyler can maybe look and see if there's other

882
01:12:02,580 --> 01:12:08,880
communities that might have already addressed this issue or provide us with some sort of boilerplate kind of be able to follow?

883
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:16,760
I think that's Tyler's work with Mr. Russ and I, Mr. Blanks, who will work with Mr. Russ and I see there's any ordinance update project on that.

884
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:35,500
This would appear to be a somewhat, you know, unique example, but I think it does relate back to the broader point of use restrictions being overly restrictive compared to what they probably ought to be.

885
01:12:35,500 --> 01:12:44,980
I think other examples of you seen in previous work sessions, I've been like at home by right commercial uses.

886
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:52,860
And so I think that this isn't keeping the general direction that I would like to see.

887
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:57,720
Yeah, it almost seems sometimes when I read these things I could be better just to say what

888
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:01,360
we won't allow as opposed to listing all of these things that are permissible by right.

889
01:13:01,580 --> 01:13:07,060
I mean, it's sometimes it's a significant list and this is something that falls in a gray

890
01:13:07,060 --> 01:13:12,540
area that, you know, clearly probably should be permissible with a lot of these other types

891
01:13:12,540 --> 01:13:15,180
of businesses that are already currently allowable.

892
01:13:15,460 --> 01:13:21,520
So, you know, it's just how zoning is done but it's unfortunate that it's limiting the

893
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,740
Children's and Pillar to be able to run his business.

894
01:13:30,180 --> 01:13:31,720
In front of the Related Public Commentary,

895
01:13:33,740 --> 01:13:36,220
not we will move on to report a secretary of committees,

896
01:13:36,420 --> 01:13:39,560
and we start with County Planning Liaison 14.

897
01:13:40,660 --> 01:13:41,020
That's me.

898
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:44,360
So that was me for this month.

899
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:50,780
So there were roughly four items.

900
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:57,160
The first was some town homes, about 60 town homes,

901
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:04,060
and as an amendment to a master plan west of wing tip way, I reckon I'm

902
01:14:04,060 --> 01:14:08,340
chanting county geography is not great but it was an

903
01:14:08,340 --> 01:14:14,020
existing an amendment to an existing master plan community relatively built out

904
01:14:14,020 --> 01:14:19,340
and this seems like it's likely to be the final phase. There were there were some

905
01:14:19,340 --> 01:14:26,520
comments in discussion on that from the public ultimately it was passed and

906
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:36,760
And second was a request to rezone about a current half of median density residential

907
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:44,280
to plan single family after a short discussion that was approved.

908
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:56,260
And then one interesting discussion on property zone general residential to R3 to A2C which

909
01:14:56,260 --> 01:14:59,960
which is agricultural, generally agricultural with conditions, they're

910
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:16,580
We basically had to do with the fact that it was separated considerably from the road and limited by typography. So it just wouldn't sell or be particularly useful as residential property to begin with. And so that was part of the reason for the change. And that also passed.

911
01:15:18,940 --> 01:15:26,980
There was a resolution of appreciation for Commissioner Michael Harvey, whose term on a planning commission come to an end.

912
01:15:27,900 --> 01:15:40,760
and appointments were made to the capital improvements program, which included Commissioner Keith Sheets and a citizen rep, Kevin Flint, and

913
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:45,300
that's it.

914
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:48,820
Thank you.

915
01:15:49,340 --> 01:15:51,560
Oh, I'm sorry. There was one more.

916
01:15:52,580 --> 01:15:56,260
I didn't really understand it, but I was there and I heard it.

917
01:15:56,260 --> 01:16:05,660
It was a lengthy ordinance amendment relating to Biomask Conversion Facility, a small scale

918
01:16:05,660 --> 01:16:09,180
as opposed to a Biomask Conversion Facility of a larger scale.

919
01:16:14,490 --> 01:16:19,810
There's a great little discussion about that and about how it can often be an industrial

920
01:16:19,810 --> 01:16:20,410
use.

921
01:16:21,170 --> 01:16:24,990
But in a small scale, it's often a byproduct of existing agricultural uses.

922
01:16:25,810 --> 01:16:30,930
and so that's basically what the ordinance amendment was hoping to distinguish.

923
01:16:39,410 --> 01:16:40,170
How's the member did?

924
01:16:40,670 --> 01:16:40,910
Okay.

925
01:16:41,190 --> 01:16:49,330
The two meetings since we met August 25th, very short, very long, very short agenda,

926
01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:58,090
very long night because it was hearing the Lindsay and we passed it by a hair pretty much.

927
01:16:58,150 --> 01:17:02,090
It was two to two and then the master came around to supporting it.

928
01:17:02,090 --> 01:17:08,250
He was basically hearing both sides and making up his mind.

929
01:17:08,350 --> 01:17:15,190
His primary reasoning was he had committed as far as possible not to raise taxes.

930
01:17:16,030 --> 01:17:19,310
And therefore we need to raise our, to increase our tax base.

931
01:17:19,550 --> 01:17:20,230
So we need housing.

932
01:17:20,590 --> 01:17:21,570
So thank you.

933
01:17:22,450 --> 01:17:22,650
Whew.

934
01:17:23,430 --> 01:17:31,130
That was a long haul and much consternation, but ultimately that's the outcome.

935
01:17:32,850 --> 01:17:33,410
Okay.

936
01:17:33,410 --> 01:17:38,370
Okay, and then we had the amendment to the subdivision ordinance that also came through

937
01:17:38,370 --> 01:17:39,150
planning commission.

938
01:17:39,330 --> 01:17:45,090
That was about changing, looking back at it, changing the director to the designated

939
01:17:45,090 --> 01:17:47,930
agent to cover more of city staff, right?

940
01:17:49,610 --> 01:17:58,090
And then some other alignment into the state code, and the other thing was about variations

941
01:17:58,090 --> 01:18:04,630
and exceptions, to make it clear the distinction between that and the official variance, right?

942
01:18:05,310 --> 01:18:09,250
Not getting that right, I'm still getting the hang of the terminology.

943
01:18:11,110 --> 01:18:18,990
Okay, so that was that meeting, and then last night, a lot more events and it was kind of fun.

944
01:18:20,350 --> 01:18:27,970
First, I'll be hearing for the CDBG Caper, I'll be able to stand for the update on the CDBG

945
01:18:27,970 --> 01:18:36,410
program request from Caitlin Denney for a special use permit at Monticello Avenue for

946
01:18:37,590 --> 01:18:44,470
short-term rental and that provoked a sort of rambling discussion on our part about what

947
01:18:44,470 --> 01:18:47,910
What happens when the ADU's are permitted by right?

948
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:56,530
Is there some loophole by which a formally designated short-term rental, if it becomes

949
01:18:56,530 --> 01:19:04,110
an ADU, then become under the jurisdiction of or under the requirements that the city

950
01:19:04,110 --> 01:19:13,110
can add by state law, I believe, for instance, that an ADU must have a minimum lease of

951
01:19:13,110 --> 01:19:17,950
30 days, meaning so it's actual logic, not just a short-term rental.

952
01:19:18,690 --> 01:19:26,630
And I believe the city attorney was, maybe you know, this, Mr. Rest was saying, actually

953
01:19:26,630 --> 01:19:35,170
if we give them a short-term rental permit now, it would stay in effect even if they

954
01:19:35,170 --> 01:19:38,230
say, added a stove to make it a dwelling unit, is that right?

955
01:19:38,230 --> 01:19:44,590
That was the kind of thing that we were wary of would currently approve short-term

956
01:19:44,590 --> 01:19:49,870
rentals suddenly become what could be accessory dwelling units which they're

957
01:19:49,870 --> 01:19:55,650
not allowed to be now, right? So we just banded around that discussion and to be

958
01:19:55,650 --> 01:19:57,770
determined but later much later.

959
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:02,140
What else then?

960
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:29,180
Here are some rich. Oh, this was the final one. And the former artisan packaging to 91 West, West Wolfstreet and West Market Street. Staff had added a much longer list of substantially similar kinds of, let's see, of use recreational uses. Let me see if I can backtrack to that this month.

961
01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:38,940
Council because it struck me slightly hilarious how long it got but works. Let me see.

962
01:20:43,110 --> 01:20:43,770
Let me find it.

963
01:20:47,090 --> 01:20:54,070
What would be under, I'll get the presentation because it puts it in there.

964
01:21:00,140 --> 01:21:04,580
Yeah, this is Adam presenting this all about the West Market Street, Wolf Street.

965
01:21:05,380 --> 01:21:10,380
Okay, here we go. The recreational and leisure time activity you shall be

966
01:21:10,380 --> 01:21:15,820
limited to recreational athletic fitness and sports related activities, including but

967
01:21:15,820 --> 01:21:22,040
not limited to indoor rock climbing, pickleball, gymnastics, soccer, futsal, basketball, volleyball,

968
01:21:22,440 --> 01:21:27,460
tennis, racquetball, dodgeball, cheerleading, martial arts, dance, bowling, trampoline

969
01:21:27,460 --> 01:21:30,380
parks, and substantially similar recreational uses.

970
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:38,240
How about that, pretty broad, and it gives staff some leeway to determine what's substantially

971
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:43,780
eventually similar or not, right, like no shooting ranges please or whatever else you might

972
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:50,360
suspect would be ejectional or whatever it might be. I mean, the sort of on the line is paintball.

973
01:21:51,340 --> 01:21:55,080
Go carts came up and we want that to do noising or not. What?

974
01:21:55,920 --> 01:22:03,640
Anyway, so good work on staff's part to expand based on our feedback last time. Okay, next was

975
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:08,580
is amend the conference plan to incorporate the Northeast

976
01:22:08,580 --> 01:22:10,400
neighborhood small area plan.

977
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:12,000
A lot of good feelings about that.

978
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:17,580
And yes, that's becoming the first small neighborhood

979
01:22:17,580 --> 01:22:20,600
small area plan that's now an addendum

980
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,340
rate or appendix to the comp plan, OK?

981
01:22:25,020 --> 01:22:27,080
And then the poultry hatchery thing.

982
01:22:27,300 --> 01:22:30,100
That's the sort of chain reaction of amendments

983
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:30,800
we've been through.

984
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:40,380
Supplemental appropriation, moving around a lot of money, and I raised the question about some of it was arpefunding that has to be spent by the end of this year.

985
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:41,960
So that was understood.

986
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:50,780
And this was interesting, the request for the variance on North Liberty Street, the big debate about the sidewalk that we got into.

987
01:22:51,620 --> 01:23:00,060
As I recall, the recommendation to approve it came from planning commission at 4 to 2.

988
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:04,120
And in council, it flipped the other way.

989
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:09,720
Went with staff's recommendation to deny at 4 to 1.

990
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:17,920
I was the one that voted to know to deny it, just not to be changing my vote from what I

991
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,300
and you know, came to and planned a commission.

992
01:23:20,780 --> 01:23:23,140
But there was an understanding of the issue.

993
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:25,680
It's just a matter of where do we draw the line

994
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,120
if we don't go by the letter of the law?

995
01:23:28,660 --> 01:23:30,340
I have a question about that.

996
01:23:30,540 --> 01:23:30,700
Sure.

997
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,680
I was disappointed to counsel with the direction.

998
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,720
It did, obviously, because it was heavy proponent

999
01:23:37,420 --> 01:23:38,300
for the variance.

1000
01:23:39,660 --> 01:23:42,780
I still believe that the ordinance is written.

1001
01:23:42,780 --> 01:23:53,280
in the section 10 to 61 per-graph-c regarding this issue with the sidewalks that having

1002
01:23:53,280 --> 01:24:01,660
a joining sidewalk and what have you, I would like to see that ordinance looked at simply

1003
01:24:01,660 --> 01:24:07,860
because the discussion that we have is about the cost of those infrastructure improvements

1004
01:24:07,860 --> 01:24:10,500
It's on a large project versus a small project.

1005
01:24:12,420 --> 01:24:15,140
You know, I really do feel in this circumstance

1006
01:24:15,140 --> 01:24:21,480
that this particular property is written in terms

1007
01:24:21,480 --> 01:24:24,500
of it being necessarily potentially a,

1008
01:24:24,500 --> 01:24:28,080
I think it's a hardship, topographical or unusual conditions.

1009
01:24:29,940 --> 01:24:31,940
You're not going to meet that standard in this case.

1010
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:35,160
And I understand why our two lawyers voted in favor

1011
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:40,480
of denying the variance, but I think that that ordinance is a bit of a blunt instrument.

1012
01:24:40,740 --> 01:24:45,200
I think that there needs to be some delineation between the size of the development, and

1013
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:49,660
where we draw that line is up for debate, but I would ask, I don't know what the process

1014
01:24:49,660 --> 01:24:55,060
is to get that reconsidered or looked at from staff to make a recommendation, but I really

1015
01:24:55,060 --> 01:24:59,560
feel that, you know, a small development, one or two homes being subdivided within an

1016
01:24:59,560 --> 01:24:59,860
Infield.

1017
01:25:08,540 --> 01:25:27,960
I feel like there should be some sort of curing or delineation between small developments of larger developments. And I don't know that I know staff, you know, very much was in support of denying the variance. But I felt like that.

1018
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:35,980
The ordinance has written is not nimble enough to be able to allow for anything other than

1019
01:25:35,980 --> 01:25:40,620
what is currently written which is pretty much if you subdivide and there's a joining

1020
01:25:40,620 --> 01:25:42,400
sidewalk you're stuck with the infrastructure.

1021
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:47,820
So I don't know what that process is, I don't know if that's a motion that we would have to

1022
01:25:47,820 --> 01:25:52,140
make and it would certainly need to be a lot cleaner than what I've just presented but what

1023
01:25:52,140 --> 01:25:54,240
is that process of looking at that?

1024
01:25:57,460 --> 01:26:02,960
And I think that Commissioner Sites felt fairly similar to me on this when we discussed it.

1025
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:06,220
And I think it's merely a more discussed.

1026
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:10,900
I was hoping that Council had debated a little bit more on those lines than they did.

1027
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:20,260
I think that watching the hearing of Vice Mayor Fleming kind of nibbled around it,

1028
01:26:20,300 --> 01:26:26,260
but really never got to the meat of that issue, but I do think that it's something that's worthy of looking at.

1029
01:26:27,380 --> 01:26:33,140
So at this point in time, the process is that you all could request staff to look at it

1030
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:36,880
and evaluate it and we can come back with the recommendation.

1031
01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:41,720
Is that possible for us to do?

1032
01:26:41,900 --> 01:26:47,380
Do we need to submit you some sort of, you know, allow you to be able to work with it

1033
01:26:47,380 --> 01:26:48,960
or do we need to provide you some more guidance?

1034
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:56,640
You can provide us with as much guidance as you would like to, we'll do the work that

1035
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:00,660
we usually do, which is we'll evaluate and coordinate with other city departments.

1036
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:05,280
It won't be, I mean, just admittedly, it won't be a quick turnaround and you're expecting

1037
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:10,160
something to be presented in the next month or two, so it will take some time, you know,

1038
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:16,800
for us to evaluate, and I don't know at this time what our recommendation will be, because

1039
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:24,940
I have already seen some challenges, but I'm going to try to keep an open mind and can, you know, as we explore and consider it.

1040
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:33,060
I understand. Council is concerned about opening Pandora's boxes that related to, you know, everybody gets a variance because of, you know, the precedent.

1041
01:27:34,300 --> 01:27:42,780
But, you know, it just seems to me that this is, as I stated in the previous meeting, it just seems like we should be able to delineate this a little bit more.

1042
01:27:42,780 --> 01:27:48,420
and I felt that if there was ever a point where a variance should have been allowed, it was because it was a smaller development.

1043
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:53,760
I just think it's worth looking at and seeing if there's value in it.

1044
01:27:53,880 --> 01:28:03,480
And I do reject the notion that somehow we are going to complete our sidewalks along liberty by doing this piecemeal,

1045
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,660
waiting for people to subdivide and put this infrastructure in place.

1046
01:28:07,660 --> 01:28:13,980
I feel like we're putting that developer through something in terms of costs that's not

1047
01:28:13,980 --> 01:28:16,340
going to really produce much public good.

1048
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:18,620
And that was my other concern.

1049
01:28:18,940 --> 01:28:22,360
And I understand the reasons why we ended up where we are, but I just think it's worth

1050
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:22,860
looking at.

1051
01:28:23,140 --> 01:28:33,200
We can look into it, and then once we come back to you all, I'm trying to think through

1052
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:37,220
this because we haven't, we don't usually go through this type of process that, you know,

1053
01:28:37,300 --> 01:28:42,340
there, I expect that there, if there is an ordinance amendment, that is to be considered,

1054
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:47,820
and that would be presented as we have to, to requesting you all to initiate, but let,

1055
01:28:47,820 --> 01:28:52,640
let us kind of think about this more so that we, you know, what we're asking if, you know,

1056
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:59,780
if we come back and recommend that you initiate something, we know what we're kind of working.

1057
01:28:59,780 --> 01:29:03,860
It is clear what I'm asking for, which is basically I'm just saying, let's delineate

1058
01:29:03,860 --> 01:29:09,240
one, whether it's worth making an exemption for a certain development size.

1059
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:12,120
And if so, what that line, where that line would fall.

1060
01:29:12,180 --> 01:29:16,880
And that's where I think it's going to be challenging, is figuring out what that line is and what

1061
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:24,060
size development, and realistically it will be calling other communities and asking what

1062
01:29:24,060 --> 01:29:24,820
they do.

1063
01:29:24,820 --> 01:29:32,300
And I know there are certainly some communities that for a duplex would not require sidewalks to be installed.

1064
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:36,480
That's with the ADU legislation. That was one of the things that the state included.

1065
01:29:36,540 --> 01:29:41,720
You can't try and rope in infrastructure improvements like sidewalks when someone wants to convert their single family home

1066
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:46,780
into a single family home in an ADU. We could take that a step further and say,

1067
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:53,540
if it's an existing lot, it's intended for single family home and all you're doing is sub-dividing to make it a duplex and you don't have to install it.

1068
01:29:53,540 --> 01:29:59,720
You can set the bar very low, just move it one step beyond what we currently do rather than the full evaluation.

1069
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:28,900
And that was something. And this is a very unique circumstance. I don't know if there's a lot of infield lots in the area that have got sidewalk on one side. But just something to consider. And again, it did not set right with me. And I just feel like it's worth creating some better public policy by potentially looking at an exemption. And speaking for myself, I mean, I voted against a variance, but I'm very interested in that policy discussion as well. I mean, as you suggested, you know,

1070
01:30:28,900 --> 01:30:34,660
My decision on that had more to do with following the guidelines as they are currently set,

1071
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:40,300
but isn't necessarily opposition to re-evaluating those guidelines themselves.

1072
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:46,740
I think Mr. Russell, you just highlighted in terms of conversion and duplexes is a good

1073
01:30:46,740 --> 01:30:47,620
example of that.

1074
01:30:48,420 --> 01:30:55,300
I think that might be a good example where it might make sense to be can get some right

1075
01:30:55,300 --> 01:31:00,820
way if there is an existing right of way, that's a different matter. But I wouldn't, you know,

1076
01:31:00,860 --> 01:31:05,700
if someone's trying to convert a single family home to a duplex, I don't want to add additional

1077
01:31:05,700 --> 01:31:12,160
costs like that on there. And certainly not they're subdividing and hoping to, you know, sell one

1078
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:20,500
part of it or increase housing stock that way as well. The only other thing that I would add is in

1079
01:31:20,500 --> 01:31:25,920
In terms of infrastructure costs, as we're moving into the broader zoning reform process,

1080
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:32,800
I mentioned a moment ago, a few minutes ago, about the townhouse regulations, and I really

1081
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:38,620
do like those regulations, I in that it allows for an alley in the back wires, an alley in

1082
01:31:38,620 --> 01:31:46,940
back for rear parking, and doesn't require other additional parking beyond that.

1083
01:31:46,940 --> 01:31:55,060
so it neatly deals with the parking in relation to increased density but also increases

1084
01:31:55,440 --> 01:31:59,900
the walkability of the space by allowing trees where otherwise would just be parking

1085
01:31:59,900 --> 01:32:11,100
or driving driveways. But it is also increasing infrastructure costs. And so I think evaluating

1086
01:32:11,100 --> 01:32:17,460
different ways to encourage more housing and lower and cost more broadly while

1087
01:32:17,460 --> 01:32:20,740
still meeting the needs that we have is important. I don't think we're going to

1088
01:32:20,740 --> 01:32:28,460
solve that anytime soon but that's it. So in this particular case it's simply just

1089
01:32:28,460 --> 01:32:33,940
making a request or do I need to make a motion? We've never wrote it. As long as

1090
01:32:33,940 --> 01:32:37,460
everybody's satisfied with staffs. That's fine. I'm going to be fine with that.

1091
01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:41,000
I

1092
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:51,940
Let me recap and see what as far as procedures go, if you all agree and if Mr. Russ agrees with this, is that you know Plenty Commission is asking staff to explore this topic.

1093
01:32:52,600 --> 01:33:07,100
Staff will come back at some point in the future with the recommendation whether whether it's to amend or not amend, and if it is a recommendation, if we have a recommendation to amend the ordinance, then that would be when you would make a.

1094
01:33:09,220 --> 01:33:13,060
I'm going to read the motion to initiate and then we'll work on the amendment at that

1095
01:33:13,060 --> 01:33:13,840
point in time.

1096
01:33:14,460 --> 01:33:18,680
But I just feel like we need to explore this topic a little more to see what options there

1097
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:25,440
are and what thresholds may or may not be before I can put a semblance of what that ordinance

1098
01:33:25,440 --> 01:33:26,440
might look like.

1099
01:33:27,140 --> 01:33:30,380
And I appreciate you, you know, and I know it's putting more on your already full plate.

1100
01:33:31,060 --> 01:33:35,200
And again, it's just maybe something we may look at down the road.

1101
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:42,140
We may not ever have a case that comes before us again like that, but I think it's a worthwhile thing to consider

1102
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:44,360
Thank you. I appreciate that

1103
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:50,260
Okay, I was doing my city report a couple more things

1104
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:53,060
personal property tax relief

1105
01:33:56,260 --> 01:34:03,600
The mosaic design for the spray grounds at the pump house with the the diver

1106
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:10,200
I was really excited to see one thing that got moved to next time.

1107
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:17,700
And then several things that some of us had put on the agenda, the passenger reel.

1108
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:22,120
Thank you, KC, for presenting in Gabriel Mori's absence.

1109
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:30,840
That was from Blue Ridge Rail, that KC and I are both on the steering committee to put in

1110
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:41,040
a comment to the Department of Rail and Public Transit, DRPT, who provide passenger rail

1111
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:48,920
service to Harrisonburg. And those comments are due September 30. So in response to

1112
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:53,920
the presentation, City Council agreed to direct City Attorney to come up with a letter

1113
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:59,960
or a resolution that we'll vote on next meeting in September to send.

1114
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:11,280
And then time to the DRPT. So, that was a good two-step process that we had time to do. The other thing was much more kind of urgent because we don't have time for two steps.

1115
01:35:13,780 --> 01:35:29,980
And we all, we approved the city of participation in the state corporation commission proceedings regarding the dominion energy and the next era merger. Huge thing. And HEC through VMA and

1116
01:35:29,980 --> 01:35:38,320
and some other organization, I can remember, that gets something, purchasing power, anyway,

1117
01:35:38,820 --> 01:35:44,140
HEC is already participating through two organizations, and we had to be clear that we're

1118
01:35:44,140 --> 01:35:51,460
not conflicting with that, we're adding to it specifically with the community goals

1119
01:35:51,460 --> 01:35:57,660
that Council has adopted for environmental action, specifically most importantly greenhouse

1120
01:35:57,660 --> 01:36:02,160
gas emissions and clean energy and adjust transition and so forth.

1121
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:09,580
So I had to be clear that by participating we aren't stating a position pro-orcon just

1122
01:36:09,580 --> 01:36:16,880
stating our concerns so that we can be part of the confidential hearing process and we

1123
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:23,640
can optionally later join coalitions with other localities whether we have the same concerns

1124
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:30,840
like clean energy, or different concerns that raise rich ones, concerns about their

1125
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:38,060
own workforce, when big chunks of the managers at Dominion would be laid off in a year

1126
01:36:38,060 --> 01:36:39,320
and a half, for instance.

1127
01:36:40,420 --> 01:36:41,800
So yeah, that was huge.

1128
01:36:42,020 --> 01:36:47,300
And we did that because it was directing, again, city attorney, or giving a lot of homework

1129
01:36:48,580 --> 01:36:51,940
to file by the deadline of September 11th.

1130
01:36:51,940 --> 01:36:52,880
That's this Friday.

1131
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:54,640
So wow, yeah.

1132
01:36:55,180 --> 01:36:59,580
And then we had brought by council member Al Sadoon.

1133
01:37:02,620 --> 01:37:07,440
Another direction to City Attorney and City Manager,

1134
01:37:07,440 --> 01:37:11,360
I guess, to draft an ALPR ordinance.

1135
01:37:11,820 --> 01:37:16,100
We already passed the resolution to cancel the contract

1136
01:37:16,100 --> 01:37:17,560
and take down the flock cameras.

1137
01:37:17,900 --> 01:37:19,500
This is to put it in the ordinance,

1138
01:37:19,500 --> 01:37:36,900
which the only effect that really has is that for an ordinance amendment there's a second reading which is technically just the consent agenda that we usually just pass with, you know, as is.

1139
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:43,740
But that way, I think that was all we could do. We couldn't add in a provision that any

1140
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:50,520
sending of this ordinance will take a public hearing. No, we can't do that. We can't

1141
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:56,640
find a future council that way. So anyway, it provided some reassurance to the people

1142
01:37:56,640 --> 01:38:02,840
who would want to have some notice if a future council wanted to readdress this issue.

1143
01:38:03,580 --> 01:38:07,800
So that was pretty much it for the agenda, but one other thing that I had put on the agenda

1144
01:38:07,800 --> 01:38:16,240
that I just took off because I hadn't come up with a plan or a letter for it is the pending

1145
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:23,060
or potential rescinding of the roadless rule in the National Forest and a lot of the

1146
01:38:23,060 --> 01:38:28,020
environmental and even our water system, huge concerns about that.

1147
01:38:28,460 --> 01:38:35,040
So I just said, and I'll say again to you, y'all in the public, whoever, just go to friends

1148
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:42,000
of Shenandoah Mountain.org, that's the people who put together the coalition to request

1149
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:49,000
Congress to pass the Shenandoah Mountain National Scenic and Wilderness Area. And I put

1150
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:57,240
in calls to our two senators and our congressmen saying, even if essentially my question was,

1151
01:38:57,240 --> 01:39:05,280
Even if the roadless rule were rescinded, would that scenic and wilderness area provide

1152
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:06,680
the protections that we're seeking?

1153
01:39:08,580 --> 01:39:14,180
And got a response from our congressional representative that said, of course, the opposite

1154
01:39:14,180 --> 01:39:16,180
of what I would want, and that's the usual.

1155
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:22,220
Basically, how we need to get rid of these burdensome restrictions, no, we don't.

1156
01:39:22,740 --> 01:39:25,680
Anyway, editorializing here of it.

1157
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:30,300
So, yeah, that was a thing that I just brought up in other matters as well as that I'm going

1158
01:39:30,300 --> 01:39:36,560
to New York Climate Week in a couple of weeks and may be logging into Council remotely

1159
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:44,800
if I can figure out how from there, but it'll be as soon as well as, oh, yeah, I also mentioned

1160
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:55,200
the Sustainability Success Summit that's being held next Friday, September 18, 830-1 at

1161
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:59,980
Lucy Simms Center, so y'all go to that. I unfortunately can't go because I

1162
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:13,100
I've signed up for a class that I'm taking at the time. But I may drop in for the last, and I've just gotten an invitation to provide a recording or something. I don't know what. Okay, sure. So, yeah, that's what's going on.

1163
01:40:15,200 --> 01:40:16,160
Thank you.

1164
01:40:18,580 --> 01:40:32,820
Anybody have anything before we ask that? Tell us about the next one. Briefly. Two things. Why just want to echo what council member debt said was saying about reading the past of Jareil back to

1165
01:40:32,820 --> 01:40:43,660
Harrison Byrd in addition to City Council's support as of right now there's also 680 comments

1166
01:40:43,660 --> 01:40:50,260
in favor going to the Department of Rail and Public Transportation and you can learn

1167
01:40:50,260 --> 01:40:53,020
more of BlueRetrile.org or just ask me or whatever.

1168
01:40:54,140 --> 01:40:58,560
I didn't get to watch your presentation but when did we stop having passenger rail and

1169
01:40:58,560 --> 01:40:58,820
why?

1170
01:40:58,820 --> 01:41:06,060
I believe it was 1946, but it was in the 40s at some point, I don't remember why.

1171
01:41:08,060 --> 01:41:15,800
The rail system here is awkwardly laid out, it's a two-piece, then it was compounded

1172
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:24,560
by the fact that in the 1980s major railway regulation, where abandonments went from being

1173
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:29,600
hard things that you need to work hard to justify to why are we bothering the nice railroads

1174
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:34,600
if they say they don't need this one, they don't. And we're an example of one of them that there

1175
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:43,000
used to be rail access to Harrisburg from the north and the abandoned some little tiny segment

1176
01:41:43,580 --> 01:41:49,500
presumably for no reason other than shades of the type of thing commission, I also did

1177
01:41:49,500 --> 01:41:53,680
with sort of talking about it. We don't want to just make a decision right now, we want to do

1178
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:57,560
something that will make it hard for people to change it ever again.

1179
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:06,640
And so, as an area that nonetheless has a poultry industry still needs a lot of feed,

1180
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:15,400
that then meant that the only way to give you directly the line runs up basically page

1181
01:42:15,400 --> 01:42:15,780
valid.

1182
01:42:16,620 --> 01:42:22,960
So, you've got to go to Elkton and get a train that just comes to Harrisonburg, and if

1183
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:26,160
It went north and came over for it because it eventually did ends.

1184
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:32,700
You can go south and connect to CSX and stand the whole history and actually in between

1185
01:42:32,700 --> 01:42:33,460
is a short line.

1186
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:39,860
There's no value in it, which I helped for many years ago, because when the North and Southern

1187
01:42:39,860 --> 01:42:46,560
abandoned that line, then we got a little private short line because, again, the short version

1188
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:56,800
this, after all, things with it was the poultry industry, but the two local groups that still

1189
01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:04,080
made me, that Railroad is essentially about that. And at the time they said it was the only

1190
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:11,480
time they ever had a joint venture, but the economics were such that even though it was more expensive

1191
01:43:11,480 --> 01:43:17,320
to bring gray in using the two railroads to do that stand.

1192
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:21,640
They also got it that once that option went away,

1193
01:43:22,240 --> 01:43:25,380
and there were totally captive shippers on Norfolk's side,

1194
01:43:25,860 --> 01:43:27,860
then guess what was going to happen to the race,

1195
01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:30,360
so there were a whole lot of machinations,

1196
01:43:30,740 --> 01:43:33,840
but then it gets to the piece of, because you can't,

1197
01:43:34,180 --> 01:43:36,720
because the way the lines are set up,

1198
01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:39,680
it's challenging to figure out how to get

1199
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:44,020
in and out of Harrisonburg with other places because the line's kind of

1200
01:43:44,020 --> 01:43:51,520
if you stand and they go through Elton. We're we're we were kind of you

1201
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:55,980
really are. We're sort of the we're sort of the end of the line really from the

1202
01:43:55,980 --> 01:43:59,600
way that from the Southern Southern standpoint which is who serves

1203
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:03,860
Harrisonburg we're the end of the earth you know we they come to Harrisonburg

1204
01:44:03,860 --> 01:44:09,440
and then they basically stop. And in terms of the in terms of the very basics

1205
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:16,660
But basically the reason why this is happening right now is the, you know, they need

1206
01:44:16,660 --> 01:44:20,180
comments by September 30th, and that's as part of their four-year plan.

1207
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:26,380
So we can do it now, or we can do it four years from now, so that was generally better.

1208
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:36,060
And the approach right now is about neutral, which basically means south-western east through

1209
01:44:36,060 --> 01:44:41,760
and part of the rationale for that is, you know, if you, if you ask for a particular route,

1210
01:44:41,940 --> 01:44:43,960
a particular kind of service they can just say no.

1211
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:48,660
And you ask for a study to evaluate options and so forth.

1212
01:44:49,100 --> 01:44:51,320
And they would, they may have to do a study.

1213
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:55,040
And that's the first step to actually getting the thing done.

1214
01:44:55,500 --> 01:44:59,440
They being the general assembly, right, directing the RPT to do a study.

1215
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:29,580
I have the words next. Gabriel is really the best person to ask about that, but in general, yes, that is my understanding. Thank goodness for him. He's a, he is raised in Harrisonburg, and he is a project manager at DC Metro. And so, this will not be happening for him. Yeah, and it's a long-term vision anyway. It may happen five, 10, 20 years from now or not, but it won't happen if we don't ask for it. Exactly.

1216
01:45:30,900 --> 01:45:36,520
But you have presumably, I mean, stands on Amtrak, so that would be, but then that's where

1217
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:39,760
you've got Chino Valley Railroad in there. So you've got a new, we've got a short line

1218
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:42,560
between North and Southern and CSI connections.

1219
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:46,780
And the state's been making a lot of investments in right-of-way, which really improves travel

1220
01:45:46,780 --> 01:45:54,300
time. And yeah, the only other thing that I wanted to mention is I would like, and not

1221
01:45:54,300 --> 01:46:04,180
certainly today. Some kind of update on what's going on with housing fund. That's it. Maybe

1222
01:46:04,180 --> 01:46:11,440
next month or. We'll talk to again our housing coordinator to see is a good time for some

1223
01:46:11,440 --> 01:46:17,160
discussion. I know that that's been on her mind, but I think I just don't know about the

1224
01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:22,520
timings I'll ask. Yeah, I don't remember exactly where it is, but I believe there's a study

1225
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:25,720
in the office and then the consultants. That was my understanding.

1226
01:46:26,340 --> 01:46:29,980
There was time. There was other consultants.

1227
01:46:29,980 --> 01:46:32,340
And that's what we would need to know. What are the

1228
01:46:34,340 --> 01:46:36,580
the legalities, the constraints, the financing,

1229
01:46:36,580 --> 01:46:39,820
the this, that it's not just well-out-proof housing,

1230
01:46:42,120 --> 01:46:45,020
which would be nice over these past few years

1231
01:46:45,020 --> 01:46:48,420
if we could have done but we're working on it slowly but surely.

1232
01:46:48,420 --> 01:46:49,340
It's

1233
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:52,840
the gist of it.

1234
01:46:55,930 --> 01:46:56,490
Other problems?

1235
01:46:58,250 --> 01:46:58,970
Well, there's nothing else.

1236
01:47:00,090 --> 01:47:01,810
Staff, tell us about next month, the meeting.

1237
01:47:02,170 --> 01:47:02,630
We still have.

1238
01:47:02,630 --> 01:47:02,770
Great.

1239
01:47:03,110 --> 01:47:04,050
Yeah, next month.

1240
01:47:05,650 --> 01:47:07,350
I messed this up with the point.

1241
01:47:07,550 --> 01:47:08,450
Let me help you with the.

1242
01:47:09,450 --> 01:47:10,270
Thank you very much.

1243
01:47:10,730 --> 01:47:13,790
We've got two items anticipated on the agenda.

1244
01:47:14,150 --> 01:47:18,050
One is subdivision ordinance variations and deviations related

1245
01:47:18,050 --> 01:47:19,850
to the Lindsay project.

1246
01:47:20,470 --> 01:47:23,850
And then what you didn't see at this meeting

1247
01:47:23,850 --> 01:47:30,010
Is the shopping center parking ordinance because we went through staff review we had some more things we wanted to work through

1248
01:47:30,010 --> 01:47:32,110
So we hope to bring it to you in October

1249
01:47:32,710 --> 01:47:35,770
You know, we've got yet another word deviations opposed to

1250
01:47:36,530 --> 01:47:37,990
Variations have exceptions

1251
01:47:38,950 --> 01:47:40,130
Oh, did I think I

1252
01:47:43,770 --> 01:47:48,010
An exceptions could catch should say variations and exceptions not

1253
01:47:48,010 --> 01:47:49,670
Lays a shallow overdone.

1254
01:47:51,710 --> 01:47:52,970
Alright, anything else?

1255
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:53,610
We're

1256
01:47:56,110 --> 01:47:56,510
adjourned.