[0:00] 
[0:01] All right.
[0:02] It is now 7:33 PM.
[0:05] Council has been in
a closed session.
[0:10] I will ask that we
reconvene at this time.
[0:15] I do have a few
announcements tonight.
[0:17] 
[0:20] Herndon is certainly part
of a much broader community,
[0:24] and we have a number
of our residents who
[0:30] or of Nepalese origin.
[0:32] And I do want to take
a moment to recognize
[0:36] and extend our collective town.
[0:39] Condolences to the
people of Nepal
[0:42] following the
catastrophic disasters
[0:45] that have brought them
unimaginable loss and
[0:48] devastation with these floods.
[0:50] We mourn, certainly for those
that have lost their lives
[0:54] or have family members and
friends that are missing,
[0:57] and we hold them in our
thoughts and the stand
[0:59] with their communities that
have been forever changed.
[1:03] I want our Nepalese
community here in Herndon
[1:07] to know that we offer our
heartfelt compassion to them
[1:12] as they endure this, as well
for their family members
[1:15] and their national
community as they await
[1:21] for news of any loved ones.
[1:26] While we continue in
that vein of remembrance,
[1:30] I also want to note that
September 11 is coming up
[1:34] and it's the 25th anniversary to
a profoundly devastating action
[1:41] that occurred here in the United
States and has certainly changed
[1:45] the course of our nation.
[1:47] I choose to remember that
as what came after, with how
[1:53] the nation and the people of
this country came together,
[1:57] and we saw it right
here in Herndon.
[1:59] There was a shortage
of American flags
[2:01] and certainly no shortage
of heart and compassion
[2:05] for our neighbors.
[2:06] So just want to remember 11.
[2:14] We do have a few items
that are coming up
[2:16] that are of potential interest,
and I think one of them
[2:19] would be a very strong interest
given emails that I've received
[2:23] from people we do have
on the agenda tonight,
[2:26] roadway safety action plan.
[2:28] And part of it,
our chief of police
[2:30] will be joining to talk a
little bit about e-bikes,
[2:32] but we will be having a big
e-bike 101 session on Wednesday.
[2:38] So tomorrow,
September 9 at o'clock
[2:41] PM at the Herndon
community center.
[2:43] Herndon will be there.
[2:46] It's designed to help
riders, parents, community
[2:48] members to understand safety.
[2:50] Please wear a helmet, but
also the classifications
[2:55] and regulations because we have
to operate within the state
[2:59] laws, and we are trying to
work with our state legislators
[3:03] to change some of
those laws, to allow
[3:05] us to support what we
need in our communities
[3:08] to make it safer.
[3:10] But we understand that
we need to educate.
[3:13] So that way, people,
because we have
[3:15] seen a rise in the prevalence of
these modes of transportation.
[3:20] We also have a community
health and wellness fair.
[3:23] This Saturday, September 12,
from 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM,
[3:27] cornerstones will be conducting
this with Fairfax County
[3:31] at the Herndon
neighborhood Resource
[3:34] Center at 1086 Elden street.
[3:37] You can get information about
health services and programs
[3:40] there.
[3:40] Also on Fairfax
county's website.
[3:44] And then something
a little more fun.
[3:46] This is a very popular parks and
rec event with puzzle palooza
[3:52] on Sunday, September 20.
[3:54] I'm sorry.
[3:55] No Oh, yeah.
[3:57] It's very popular, apparently.
[3:59] I don't think I
could potentially
[4:00] put together a 500 piece puzzle
as quickly as these groups can.
[4:04] If you would like to
try your hand at that.
[4:06] I don't even know if
there's registration
[4:09] spots still available,
but check it
[4:10] out because it is that popular.
[4:13] Sunday, September 20 from 2 to
4:30 at the community center.
[4:18] You can get a team
of four people.
[4:19] You work on a 500 piece puzzle.
[4:21] You can register
and get information
[4:23] on the town's website.
[4:27] Town clerk I will ask if
we've received any comments
[4:29] for the record or transactional
disclosure declarations
[4:32] from council and any items
on the agenda tonight.
[4:34] Yes, Mr. mayor, comments were
provided to the town council
[4:37] and entered into the record
on discussion item two
[4:40] a Herndon Centennial
golf course.
[4:42] Hole number 9 protective
netting request, data
[4:45] review and mitigation options.
[4:46] The clerk did not receive
additional comments
[4:48] or any disclosures
on any other items
[4:51] listed on tonight's agenda.
[4:53] Thank you, Mr. mayor.
[4:54] Thank you.
[4:56] Next on our agenda is a
discussion item about the
[4:58] Herndon Centennial golf course.
[5:00] Hole number 9 protective
netting request, which
[5:02] came in from said emails, data
review and mitigation options
[5:07] for counsel.
[5:07] I will recognize Kirsten
Jovanovic, deputy town
[5:09] manager for the update on this.
[5:11] Thank you.
[5:12] Mayor good evening.
[5:14] Tonight, I have a
discussion item that came
[5:18] about from resident concerns.
[5:19] Many of those residents
are here this evening
[5:21] regarding the impact
of golf course activity
[5:24] on their properties, both from
a property damage perspective as
[5:29] well as a quality of life
and just general ability
[5:31] to enjoy their property.
[5:33] So staff took a
look at this issue,
[5:37] and we identified some
mitigation strategies that
[5:41] might help reduce the impact.
[5:43] Though I think we
recognize that there's
[5:45] no one solution that's
going to eliminate
[5:49] impact from the golf course.
[5:51] So we wanted to
bring this to you
[5:52] this evening to have a
conversation around what
[5:55] the concerns are and the
research that we did,
[5:59] and talk about these mitigation
strategies, because some of them
[6:04] do require capital
investment, which
[6:06] will require council direction.
[6:11] So let's see this.
[6:13] 
[6:18] All right.
[6:19] So just the we prepared a report
that's included in your packet.
[6:26] It has much more detail
around the background the data
[6:30] and the mitigation strategies.
[6:31] So this is a pretty high level.
[6:34] I just kind of wanted to go
over some of the larger things
[6:36] to talk through
that should help you
[6:39] in making decisions or giving
some direction to staff
[6:42] on how we want to move
forward with this.
[6:44] So I'll give you a little bit of
background on what the resident
[6:47] concerns are related
to the golf course,
[6:48] impacts the data and site
evaluations that we did.
[6:53] We identified some near term
as well as some long term
[6:56] mitigation strategies.
[6:57] And then at the end
of this, we would
[6:58] like some direction from council
on how we might move forward.
[7:03] So to start with how we
got here, this issue,
[7:08] this netting request has been
around since at least 2024,
[7:13] starting in 24.
[7:14] Residents at 1117 Berwick drive
had contacted the town regarding
[7:18] property damage in
the neighborhood,
[7:21] not just on their property but
throughout the neighborhood,
[7:23] broken windows, vehicles,
and siding damage as a couple
[7:27] examples that were included.
[7:28] They also provided a resident
petition that specifically
[7:32] requested a protective
netting along hole number 9,
[7:36] and at the time, we were just
getting started on a tee box
[7:39] and irrigation
project on the course
[7:43] that the tee box renovation
adjusted the location of the tee
[7:50] box to try to reduce directional
directional directional shift
[7:55] of the tee box to aim it further
away from adjacent properties,
[7:59] not just hole number 9.
[8:00] All of our tee boxes
went through that,
[8:01] so we're just starting
that and we communicate
[8:03] that to the residents.
[8:04] In May 2025, residents
from that neighborhood
[8:07] attended a town
Hall meeting, again
[8:09] requesting protective
netting along hole number 9.
[8:13] And at that time, we were just
about done with that project.
[8:16] And so we advised that
realignment project was nearing
[8:18] completion with the idea that
the realignment would help
[8:23] reduce some of that
impact that they
[8:25] were getting from the course.
[8:28] So that project was
completed with the opening
[8:31] in June 2025, where the
renovation project was done.
[8:35] And again, that
hole number 9 was
[8:37] realigned to reduce that
directional conflict
[8:40] with adjacent properties.
[8:42] Then fast forward to
this year in April,
[8:44] I'll note that Dominion did
significant again invasive
[8:47] removal along the
wnod corridor, which
[8:51] did take out quite a
bit of natural buffer
[8:53] that was in that area.
[8:55] We received a complaint from the
resident at 1119 Berwick drive.
[8:59] We met with her on
April 17 and requesting
[9:03] again a netting installation
along a whole number 9.
[9:06] And at that point, we
asked for two weeks
[9:10] to take a quick look at
what the concerns were.
[9:13] And at the end of that, we asked
to set up a community meeting
[9:16] with the residents,
and we put together
[9:20] a internal
cross-departmental team,
[9:21] take a look at what is the issue
and take a more holistic view
[9:27] at the request, as
well as what else
[9:29] we could do to try
to help in this area.
[9:32] So we had that on site
community meeting on June 24.
[9:36] We had a number of
residents attend.
[9:38] I think 17 homes were
represented, and at that time
[9:43] we shared information on
the preliminary information
[9:46] that we had at the
time, and received
[9:50] feedback from the residents on
what they were experiencing.
[9:53] And from that point, we
prepared the analysis
[9:55] that is included in
your report and schedule
[9:57] this for work session.
[10:00] So let's talk a little
bit about the data
[10:03] and what the data is saying.
[10:06] As a piece of
information, we have
[10:08] about 48,000 rounds per year
are played at the golf course.
[10:13] And I'll mention 2, I
included in the report
[10:15] that we have what's called
a good neighbor program.
[10:17] It's not necessarily
insurance, but it's
[10:20] through our enterprise fund.
[10:24] But the people playing
on the golf course
[10:26] are actually responsible
for any damage that they do.
[10:29] However, it is very difficult
to identify who those people
[10:33] are when the damage does occur.
[10:34] So the town provides
this program
[10:37] to reimburse reimburse
residents who
[10:41] have damage on their
property from golf
[10:42] course, golf course play.
[10:44] Horseplay so with that
said, on average we have
[10:48] about three claims per year.
[10:51] These aren't
complaints or concerns
[10:54] around golf balls on property.
[10:56] These are claims
that are submitted
[10:58] through the good
neighbor program.
[10:59] So we have about three a year.
[11:00] There are around $1,000 each.
[11:03] So annually, we
spend around $3,000
[11:06] to the good neighbor program.
[11:09] And in the area
of hole number 9,
[11:12] we've had one claim
that's currently pending.
[11:15] But at the time, and
this is one claim
[11:21] since we started tracking
that data starting in 2019,
[11:24] we have one claim.
[11:26] So we wanted to take
a look to these areas
[11:28] that I've noted here,
there again in more
[11:30] detail in the report, but
we wanted to take a look
[11:33] at where claims are occurring.
[11:36] So what is the cost to the town
for damages for due to active
[11:40] play on the course.
[11:42] What were the impacts of
the vegetation removal
[11:45] along the course.
[11:46] What does the buffer do to
help protect those properties.
[11:50] We wanted to take a look
at the current health
[11:52] of our current buffer.
[11:54] On the course, we
also looked at what's
[11:56] called the cone of safety.
[11:58] As it relates to hole
number 9 and where average
[12:01] play would go in terms
of shot trajectory.
[12:06] And we looked also somewhat at
the trail and resident safety
[12:12] as it relates to active play.
[12:15] And we also looked at
other things like wildlife
[12:17] activity and
maintenance activities
[12:19] that could be displacing balls.
[12:20] We do have
documentation of crows
[12:23] removing balls, relocating
them, dropping them
[12:26] all over adjacent
properties we have.
[12:29] So wildlife is
definitely a factor
[12:31] in terms of how these balls
might leave the course
[12:34] other than the active play.
[12:35] So we wanted to take a
holistic look at what's
[12:38] actually happening here.
[12:42] The vegetation removal was
relatively significant.
[12:47] They reduced quite a
bit of natural buffer,
[12:50] which I have some photos to
show you in a couple slides.
[12:52] We also noted that there's a
gap in the buffer on the course
[12:55] around 150 yard
marker at hole 9,
[12:59] which is across the trail
between 1117 and 1119.
[13:04] So it's kind of right across
within that cone of safety.
[13:07] So that is an area of
concern that we saw.
[13:11] And the shot geometry, when
we took a look at the shot
[13:13] geometry, we were doing
it in terms of what is
[13:15] an average golfer going to do.
[13:17] And that data showed
us that they would have
[13:22] to have quite a
significant deviation
[13:25] offline to get it outside
the cone of safety
[13:28] onto those adjacent properties.
[13:31] And that is I'm
not we never we're
[13:34] not saying that it never
happens because never
[13:38] is a very strong word.
[13:39] Onward, but the
likelihood is very low
[13:42] that is what's that
is how the golf
[13:45] balls are exiting the course.
[13:47] So the data does show
that active play is not
[13:51] necessarily the primary source
of what those neighbors are
[13:55] experiencing.
[13:57] Again, I mentioned the wildlife
and then the trail safety.
[14:00] That has been a concern.
[14:01] That's been brought
up several times.
[14:03] Our look into that is that
yes, there is no records.
[14:07] Not saying it can't happen,
but when you look at movement
[14:10] on the trail, movement of the
ball and the shot geometry,
[14:14] it is a very low
likelihood that there
[14:16] is going to be personal injury,
at least along the trail
[14:23] due to active play.
[14:25] Again, not saying it
can't happen, just saying
[14:27] it's a lower probability.
[14:30] When did we build the golf
course or when was it opened.
[14:33] 70s have we ever had.
[14:36] I haven't.
[14:38] None of the records indicate
that based on what we have.
[14:42] 
[14:45] So in short, again,
what the data is telling
[14:48] us is that a majority of the
golf balls that are being found
[14:51] on neighboring
properties are likely
[14:53] not the result of active play.
[14:55] And I think this context is
relevant as we think about both
[14:59] what the town's exposure and
the appropriate mitigation
[15:01] strategies that we
can use to try to help
[15:04] reduce that impact
on our neighbors.
[15:06] 
[15:10] All right.
[15:10] So just a couple photos.
[15:12] These are from the report.
[15:13] I wanted to go a little
bit more in depth.
[15:15] There's the cone of
safety that I mentioned.
[15:19] It is a.
[15:22] It is a standard
architectural model
[15:25] that is used when developing
golf courses to a lot of times
[15:29] it's used around the
perimeter to make sure
[15:30] that how the course is
set up is not impacting
[15:35] neighboring properties.
[15:38] But it essentially follows the
center line and extends 200 Off
[15:42] and you can see it kind of lands
somewhere in the easement there
[15:47] in that tree line, right across
between one 1119 and 1117.
[15:54] And I will note that gap
that I mentioned earlier
[15:56] is in that area as well.
[15:59] And there is that tree
line is a little thin.
[16:02] So I'll just note that it's
the tree line, as you can see,
[16:05] is thicker up
toward the tee boxes
[16:07] and it thins out the
further you go down.
[16:12] And that gap is used by
Dominion to access the utility
[16:15] from the golf course.
[16:16] So there's some work to be
done with Dominion on that one.
[16:21] I also wanted to note, we
did a little bit of a heat
[16:24] map to identify where
we're seeing filed claims.
[16:28] These aren't complaints
about golf balls.
[16:30] These are actual claims
filed through the neighbor
[16:32] good neighbor program.
[16:34] As you can see, a
lot of our claims
[16:36] are up at the Herndon
community center.
[16:39] Cars in the parking lot and
then also up on Crestview
[16:43] drive near that 7-eleven.
[16:46] We have had communications
with a neighbor.
[16:48] I think it's hole number 6.
[16:50] He's a Fairfax County resident.
[16:52] We've had communications
with them,
[16:53] and we've also
had communications
[16:54] with the Montessori school.
[16:57] We actually do have a
netting system over there.
[16:59] It's about 100 yards or
sorry, hundreds linear feet.
[17:06] So we do have an editing
system over there for that.
[17:09] 
[17:13] All right.
[17:14] And I also wanted to show
a little bit of the impact
[17:16] that we're seeing with
the vegetation removal
[17:18] along the wnod.
[17:19] I know everybody
here probably walks.
[17:20] So you don't already know
what I'm talking about,
[17:23] but the picture at the
top is Berwick drive.
[17:26] One nine 1119 is
over, kind of closest
[17:30] to the camera on the left.
[17:33] You can see that's the
vegetation from 2022.
[17:36] Pretty high.
[17:37] Now when you look at the bottom
one, that's the same position.
[17:40] In July of 26, quite a reduction
in the amount of buffer
[17:44] that was available previously.
[17:47] And then in the center there
is we have been in contact
[17:52] with Dominion and Nova parks
talking through this issue
[17:56] and what we can do.
[17:58] And I believe the neighbor at
1119 is also in communication.
[18:05] But they have a
replanting plan to plant.
[18:07] Quite a number of trees
in that general area
[18:10] is a little bit on the slope.
[18:12] They did plant it.
[18:13] None of it survived.
[18:14] So they are going to come
back and replant all of that
[18:17] this fall.
[18:18] But that is the
level of replanting
[18:20] that we're aware of
right now that Dominion
[18:22] is going to be doing.
[18:23] 
[18:26] And then on the right,
you'll see that's the gap
[18:29] I was talking about.
[18:30] That's a picture.
[18:31] It's near the 150 yard
line on hole number 9.
[18:35] But again, it's right there
in that cone of safety
[18:37] right across from 1117 1119.
[18:42] But that's where
Dominion access is.
[18:45] Was there always a step or
was there vegetation before.
[18:47] I think there's always been a
gap based on my conversation
[18:51] with Mike, the golf manager.
[18:55] That's how Dominion gets.
[18:57] We'd have to have some
conversation with them
[18:58] about that.
[19:01] So let's talk a little bit about
a couple different mitigation
[19:04] strategies.
[19:05] These are some short and
mid-term things that we can do.
[19:09] They don't necessarily
have immediate impact
[19:11] but they'll have a
longer term impact.
[19:13] One of those is the Dominion
replanting along the road.
[19:17] We are aware that they
are coming back this fall,
[19:21] at the end of this month,
to do more invasive spraying
[19:24] along the wnod corridor.
[19:27] We staff is
communicating with them
[19:30] on what the replanting plan is.
[19:32] We don't have that information
other than that one
[19:35] section behind 1119
that we do know
[19:37] that they're going to be doing.
[19:40] So I think so we want
to continue to work
[19:45] with Dominion and Nova parks.
[19:47] We have a really good
relationship with Nova parks.
[19:48] They are very amenable to
plantings and vegetation
[19:53] and beautification
along the corridor.
[19:55] So assuming whatever we
do has to be in accordance
[20:00] with Dominion and their
transmission lines,
[20:02] but they're very
more open, I think,
[20:04] than they have been
in the past to doing
[20:06] some improvements along there.
[20:08] The town can choose to add
some additional vegetation
[20:12] along that corridor behind
Berwick drive residences.
[20:18] We could basically replicate
what they're doing behind
[20:20] 1119 and extend that
beyond is around
[20:23] 27 to $30,000 to get down to.
[20:26] I want to say it's 1113,
but essentially, it's about
[20:31] $10,000 per property.
[20:33] If we wanted to do
plantings, basically
[20:36] replicate the plantings
that are going by 1119.
[20:39] I put fall, I'm not sure if
we'll be able to do fall,
[20:42] really just depends on
council direction and timing
[20:46] and what we're
able to accomplish.
[20:48] Fall is obviously
the best time to do
[20:49] it because you have plantings in
the spring, they didn't survive.
[20:52] So we also want to look at
closing that vegetation gap
[20:56] at the 150 yard marker.
[20:58] There might be balls that
are exiting through that.
[21:01] It's pretty clear.
[21:03] And that goes along
with number four
[21:05] there where there's some
opportunity to add to our tree
[21:07] line there, especially where
it got a little thinner further
[21:10] down as some vegetation to
help create more of a buffer
[21:14] in that general area.
[21:15] That's around 6,000 to
$15,000, depending on how
[21:19] many trees size of the trees.
[21:20] We can, depending
on how much we can
[21:23] do, more or less,
depending on how much
[21:26] we want to do in that area.
[21:28] And then we also talked
internally about course signage.
[21:31] There's very little
communication
[21:33] about the golfers responsibility
for damage on the course.
[21:39] And so our communications team
has been working with our golf
[21:42] team to come up with
signage for that location,
[21:45] as well as communicate
that out and basically
[21:47] say there are neighbors,
be mindful of that
[21:50] as you're playing the course.
[21:52] That is an operational thing.
[21:54] We will likely just do that.
[21:56] I don't that's easily
enough to be implemented.
[22:02] All of these things,
other than the signage,
[22:04] are going to take time to
grow and be beneficial.
[22:08] So I recognize that while
we can take some action now,
[22:12] the benefit of that is going
to take some time to develop.
[22:16] So just give you.
[22:17] So I talked about the
signage, just to give you
[22:19] an idea of where we're
talking about putting signage,
[22:21] the language we're
talking about using.
[22:23] And then this is showing the
kind of just a really quick what
[22:29] they're planting behind 1119
and then replicating that along
[22:34] the 30,000 that I mentioned.
[22:38] Yeah it gets to I
think that's 1113.
[22:42] So if you want to if the
council wants to go beyond that,
[22:44] it's another 10,000 per.
[22:47] And again, this is
kind of on the slope.
[22:49] It kind of slopes down.
[22:50] So it's not like
right on the trail
[22:52] but just kind of
on the edge there.
[22:56] So then let's talk about
the netting solution,
[22:58] which was a specific
request from the residents.
[23:00] And so we wanted to make
sure we take a look at this
[23:03] and see what makes the
most sense in this area.
[23:08] So again, while the data is not
really saying that active tee
[23:13] shots are what is active
play is what is exiting
[23:17] is not the main source.
[23:20] It is likely happening
to some level.
[23:22] It's going through the
tree line and impacting
[23:26] the impacting the residents.
[23:29] So a couple key points
I wanted to point out
[23:31] was the existing tree canopy
in that area is around 75.
[23:35] The 60 foot netting that we're
including, as in there would be
[23:41] shorter than portions of that.
[23:43] So again, the netting is
really for going through,
[23:46] not over not over
the tree canopy.
[23:50] If we were to
increase it to 80 feet
[23:53] would be just above
that tree line.
[23:56] Anything over 60 feet is going
to require significant amount
[23:59] of engineering, which increases
that price to around 1.2
[24:03] to $1.3 million.
[24:05] So same distance, 450
linear feet at feet, goes
[24:09] from 146,000 to 1.2 million.
[24:14] And then again, no
netting solution is going
[24:17] to eliminate all errant balls.
[24:20] But we do believe that
the 450 linear feet.
[24:25] Will cover.
[24:28] Most active T shots that
are coming where they land
[24:34] is likely to catch
most of those because I
[24:38] mean you have to have a strong
drive to even get that distance.
[24:42] Yeah I mean, it can happen.
[24:43] And we talked a lot too, about
advancements in technology
[24:47] with clubs and balls,
and they're going farther
[24:49] and they're going higher,
which is why we were talking
[24:52] to the contractor about
80 feet, because feet
[24:55] used to be the standard.
[24:56] Now it's really feet.
[24:58] So it's a question of yeah,
we were trying to figure out
[25:03] what the minimum solution is.
[25:04] That would have the
greatest impact.
[25:07] That made the most sense
in terms of meeting,
[25:09] meeting that need.
[25:11] And I will say these
are really rough costs.
[25:13] Assume they are going to be
including the vegetation.
[25:16] We were trying to get real rough
numbers so that we could have
[25:18] this conversation
and get direction,
[25:20] but it's likely going to
be much more than this.
[25:25] I would imagine the I would
imagine more of the vegetation
[25:31] and the fencing is probably
going to if you do a combination
[25:34] around 250, it would
be my guess is probably
[25:36] more realistic depending.
[25:39] So really rough numbers
just to make sure we're
[25:42] all aware of that.
[25:43] Can you explain the engineering
part while you're here.
[25:46] If the feet I'll do my best.
[25:48] So I had assistance in this,
but because of wind shear,
[25:53] all of that and you have to go
deeper and there's different.
[25:59] Poles yeah.
[26:00] Poles and it's just it's a
different level of engineering
[26:03] that's required for that
same netting or different
[26:06] netting for the material.
[26:09] And I'm not sure I
didn't go that deep.
[26:11] All I know is that it is
escalated significantly because
[26:17] of the height, and I don't
even know if Dominion would
[26:19] be OK with feet right there.
[26:21] That's another conversation
to be had now because it's not
[26:25] underneath it, but it's close.
[26:26] So we again, this would have to
be a conversation with Dominion
[26:30] on what their comfort
level is with netting
[26:33] in that general area.
[26:34] It's not in their
easement we're talking
[26:36] about on the course
property, but feet of pole
[26:39] could hit maybe I don't know.
[26:41] 
[26:44] So with that said, I
wanted to give you an idea
[26:47] of what we're talking about.
[26:48] So we kind started here.
[26:49] Again, this is kind of based
off the cone of safety,
[26:51] where the shot geometry is and
what we think the best what
[26:57] is going to catch
most of the shots that
[27:01] would the errant
shots that would exit.
[27:04] And so this is 450.
[27:07] And when we quoted between
350 which is here and 450,
[27:13] it's not a huge
price difference.
[27:16] So it probably makes
sense to go to the 450.
[27:20] If the netting solution
is the direction we go.
[27:23] At the community meeting,
we've gotten some feedback
[27:26] about concerns about not
going the full distance
[27:30] and whether these properties
would be protected.
[27:32] Again, because of the shot
geometry and the safety,
[27:35] majority of errant shots that
are going through the tree line
[27:39] will likely be caught by this.
[27:40] But if council did want to go,
the full is around $250,000
[27:44] or so at the 60 foot
height, and again,
[27:48] 450 at feet is going to
be around 1.2 million,
[27:52] just because of all the
engineering requirements that
[27:54] are going to be needed there.
[27:55] 
[27:58] So with that said, with those, I
did a real high level briefing.
[28:02] Again, there's quite more
information in detail
[28:06] in the report, but
I wanted to give you
[28:10] two options to think
about, one being vegetation
[28:12] signage and master plan.
[28:15] Adding some canopy
and evergreen trees
[28:18] to the golf course
side of things,
[28:20] filling that gap
where that exists.
[28:23] Talking to Dominion
and Nova parks
[28:24] about how we can
supplement further
[28:26] to create more of a barrier
of vegetation barrier.
[28:29] Again, these are we
can put them in now,
[28:32] but it's going to take some
time to get the full impact
[28:36] from that signage.
[28:38] We can do that
relatively quickly.
[28:41] We are starting a
master planning effort,
[28:45] and I mentioned
earlier that we had
[28:46] some conversations with
some of our neighbors,
[28:49] and we have higher
incidences of.
[28:53] 
[28:57] Impacts at on other
areas like Crestview
[29:01] and the community center.
[29:05] And so the thought
would be to include this
[29:08] as part of a larger
master planning effort
[29:11] to take a look at the course's
impact on neighboring properties
[29:14] and where do we need to
realign tee boxes again.
[29:17] Do we need to shift
our course more.
[29:19] As we look at a more
comprehensive level,
[29:22] as opposed to a case by case,
which is currently what we're
[29:25] doing, not just with this,
but also the resident that we
[29:28] had in the Montessori school.
[29:30] We're kind of dealing with
them on a case by case basis.
[29:33] So the idea would be to do
vegetation, do some things now
[29:37] and partnership, but look
at this more holistically
[29:41] about what we can do in the
master planning process,
[29:44] and then just continue to be
engaged with the residents
[29:46] there after we put the
vegetation, see how it's going.
[29:49] We have very little
data from that area.
[29:53] So keeping that
communication and finding
[29:55] out what they're experiencing.
[29:57] So that cost is around
33 to 45, again,
[29:59] depending on how much vegetation
we want to do, at least
[30:02] from the town's perspective.
[30:04] The sign is operational.
[30:05] And then we have the master plan
funded in the CIP for this year.
[30:10] Again, the timing is just
dependent on the weather
[30:15] and how we move on this.
[30:17] Option 2 includes the signage
and vegetation from option one.
[30:23] As well as the minimum netting
system, which we're saying
[30:25] is 450 linear feet
at 60 feet in height.
[30:29] We do think this is likely
the minimum span that would be
[30:34] needed to address the highest
probability corridor there
[30:39] for any balls that
might be leaving
[30:40] the course through active play.
[30:43] Again, just mentioning
the 75 foot canopy.
[30:46] So it's not going to
catch things going over.
[30:48] It's going to catch
things going through.
[30:50] And again, maintaining that
relationship with the residents
[30:53] and continuing to track and see
how it's going that cost with
[30:58] the vegetation and the
netting is somewhere
[31:00] between 180 and 200,000.
[31:04] This would require either if
we wanted to do it this year,
[31:07] we'd need a budget
Amendment for FY 28,
[31:09] or it could be a
future CIP request.
[31:12] And I'll note all
of this would come
[31:13] out of the golf
course enterprise
[31:14] fund, not the general fund.
[31:17] So just as a piece
of information.
[31:20] So I will stop there and I'm
happy to answer any questions.
[31:25] Questions from council.
[31:26] Yes, sir.
[31:27] Thank you, Mr. mayor.
[31:28] And thank you for that update.
[31:31] So does that mean
I'm trying to avoid
[31:35] the budget special request is
bonding out of the possible ones
[31:42] here for that amount.
[31:43] For that cost.
[31:44] Yeah it wouldn't make sense to.
[31:48] Well, how about we do this
because I looked at this.
[31:51] I mean, look, if we're going
to do is we should do it.
[31:53] Well, the one point
I think the most I'm
[31:56] not talking about
the 1.2 mill option,
[31:58] I'm talking about the 750.
[32:01] If you look at well, first of
all, let's go back to slide 7.
[32:06] So I was with you.
[32:10] In combining I had combined.
[32:15] See, number one is
never going to happen.
[32:17] I don't think we
look at, for Dominion
[32:21] to entertain any additional
cost burden for our residents.
[32:24] That's just my personal opinion.
[32:26] But if we're combining 2,
4 and 5 and then slide 9,
[32:34] we go to option on the full.
[32:37] If I'm reading that
full 700 foot span,
[32:42] does that amount and then make
it more amenable to a bond
[32:48] versus no, it's
actually probably too
[32:50] small to include into a bond.
[32:53] If it was, we wouldn't go
out for an amount that small.
[32:59] We could go out for something
larger would make more sense.
[33:05] But I think the big question
there is the effectiveness
[33:09] of 60 versus feet.
[33:11] Kirsten kind of referenced the
fact that 60 might help a few
[33:17] of the already small number.
[33:20] 80 is what the standard would
be for especially for homes
[33:25] this far away from
the golf course.
[33:27] 80 is probably the bare minimum.
[33:29] We need to have some degree
of effect on the already small
[33:34] number of balls that are
entering that way due to play,
[33:39] and you can't
really do 60 and see
[33:41] what happens, because it's
still going to cost you to read
[33:45] the whole thing, to do it all.
[33:47] Yeah well, exactly.
[33:49] But then I think the cost
benefit of 1.25 million versus
[33:56] just the paying for
the five claims we get
[34:00] each year at about $1,000 each.
[34:04] It's a taxpayer
question, of course,
[34:07] that council's unfortunately
equate this again to tax
[34:12] rate 1.2 million.
[34:17] Well, it's about a penny
for the 250 option.
[34:21] I believe it's about two
5,250 penny on the road.
[34:26] That's about four or
five pennies in tax.
[34:28] I know in this case, it's
coming from golf course.
[34:30] But just to equate
it in our minds,
[34:32] if it was coming from tax rate,
that's about a penny on the tax
[34:36] rate and maintenance.
[34:38] Even if we borrowed for the
1.2, you're going to pay
[34:42] debt service of about a penny.
[34:44] 
[34:48] And quite a penny.
[34:49] I'll mention two.
[34:50] I mean half a penny every year.
[34:53] Well I'm sorry.
[34:54] Continue your thought.
[34:55] So that's why I wanted
to have that discussion,
[34:58] because most people, it's
more palatable to have.
[35:04] They can understand half
a penny of debt services.
[35:07] Choices We just cut
spring fall trash pickup
[35:12] because we couldn't find a
couple hundred thousand dollars.
[35:14] So that's why I think.
[35:16] Sorry, this is just me, guys.
[35:18] Yeah please.
[35:19] I think it would make more
sense for me to address.
[35:22] And by the way,
I put this under,
[35:25] if we go the strategic plan
under good governance, right.
[35:33] Let me just read it because
I was reading here's
[35:35] the justification, right.
[35:37] Heritage government provides
effective and efficient
[35:39] community centered services
and programs that are focused
[35:42] on improving quality of life.
[35:44] This is clearly one
of those things.
[35:46] So it aligns with
our strategic vision.
[35:49] It aligns with good governance,
and half a penny is more
[35:54] palatable for a lot of people.
[35:57] You'll get people well,
you're raising a penny
[36:01] or a penny half, do this,
do that, I think that.
[36:06] And plus we have
triple-a bond rating.
[36:09] I mean, just.
[36:10] So yeah, I mean, again, it's
just a matter of crunching
[36:15] the numbers a bit as to what
good governance would cost
[36:20] relative to the actual impact.
[36:23] So even if we quadrupled
the number of claims
[36:27] that we were getting
for damage, we
[36:31] get about a year, roughly
three a year in 50 years.
[36:37] We've never had an
incident of somebody
[36:39] being I get that, I get that,
but there's a human element.
[36:45] So if you live there, I'm
sure you talk to the folks.
[36:49] It's a different
quality of life issue.
[36:54] It is.
[36:54] That's why we're
putting it at your feet.
[36:56] Because it's a policy
decision that staff
[37:01] are not going to make
because it doesn't pencil out
[37:05] to the actual damage or risk.
[37:08] If we've got an issue that's
generating a handful of claims
[37:13] a year, a $1.2
milliosmole solution,
[37:19] we won't get to $1.2
million of taxpayer funds
[37:25] for the life of the golf
course, like we pay out.
[37:29] We have so few
claims for this now.
[37:32] Claims are damaged.
[37:34] Not just hey, I found
a ball in my yard.
[37:37] If someone's got a
ball in their yard,
[37:38] it's not damage that's going
to happen from time to time,
[37:41] but actual instances
where it has caused damage
[37:45] are very small.
[37:48] Has anyone ever been hurt
by one of these before.
[37:51] Not in 50 years of
that golf course.
[37:53] There's no record of that.
[37:55] Plus, millions of people live
on or around golf courses
[37:59] and pay a premium to do
that all over the world.
[38:02] No one's getting
hurt by these things.
[38:05] I got hit by a baseball.
[38:07] You got about a 1 Q&A if you are
in or around living near a golf
[38:11] course, I think the
stat is you've got
[38:13] about a one in 250,000 chance
of getting hit by a hurricane.
[38:19] Jesus I not saying
it can't happen.
[38:21] No one still means
there's a chance.
[38:23] Of course.
[38:24] And most of the research that
I found on golf course injuries
[38:26] was on the golf course,
like through play.
[38:29] I mean, they put
netting on baseball
[38:32] stands for the fan experience.
[38:34] If you're saying
like near the dugout.
[38:36] I haven't seen more like I could
only think of Wrigley Field
[38:40] where they just like, let it
the balls travel out the stadium
[38:44] the few chances that it does.
[38:46] But again, I think
about the safety.
[38:49] I mean, they put up
safety for a reason
[38:52] so people won't get
hit with baseballs.
[38:54] I don't it could be,
someone hits a golf ball
[38:58] and hits one of these poor
residents in the head,
[39:00] and now we have a
serious issue now.
[39:03] Yes if it ever happened.
[39:05] If it.
[39:06] Yes I'm just saying,
hypothetically speaking,
[39:08] I would say I've not
heard of any story.
[39:10] That's why I mentioned
somebody getting killed.
[39:13] I mean, I think that's why
I mentioned that we can't
[39:17] eliminate even if we put
a NetApp, that could still
[39:21] that probability still exists,
that a golf ball can exit
[39:25] the course and hit somebody.
[39:28] But yeah, and even putting a
NetApp is not going to eliminate
[39:35] golf balls ending up in
the residents property
[39:39] because there are other things
happening like the wildlife is
[39:43] real thing that is moving.
[39:46] But I have a question.
[39:47] So in your slide, you said
that it was like one claim,
[39:49] but in our email
that we received,
[39:51] it seems like there
was like two instances
[39:54] already where people had
their windows broken.
[39:58] We haven't gotten
a claim submitted.
[40:00] We've provided the
information, but there's
[40:03] no claims submitted to them.
[40:05] So go ahead.
[40:06] No go ahead.
[40:06] No yeah.
[40:08] There are.
[40:11] We know of we do have the one
pending claim that's recent.
[40:15] And we do have one
from Crestview,
[40:19] which was a legitimate claim.
[40:22] That's the recent 1 over 5.
[40:24] I don't know that one.
[40:26] The guy who talked to his house.
[40:28] Oh, that's hole six.
[40:29] Yeah hole six.
[40:30] I'm sorry.
[40:30] That's right.
[40:31] So they do happen
from time to time.
[40:34] We pay for that.
[40:35] We cover all the costs
associated with if someone's
[40:38] window, because that does
happen in the parking lot of
[40:40] the community center regularly.
[40:43] Yeah and when I say
regularly, it's.
[40:45] And we're working off
the information we have.
[40:47] I mean, I think you hit
the nail on the head
[40:49] talking about quality of life.
[40:51] They are experiencing golf
balls in their property.
[40:53] No doubt about that.
[40:54] It is happening.
[40:56] How they get there.
[40:57] That's where we're unsure.
[40:59] And the damaged part.
[41:02] When you're talking
about the investment
[41:04] on the course for this issue
in terms of the people using
[41:10] the trail and the 10 or so homes
specifically along the trail
[41:14] there, you have to that's what
we're looking at, which is why
[41:17] we're bringing it is so it's
a balance of stewardship
[41:20] and governance and community.
[41:23] I mean, we want to be responsive
to the residents, which
[41:26] is why we're trying to come
up with some lower cost things
[41:29] that we can get in faster.
[41:32] You mentioned the tee boxes.
[41:34] Have we also in
particular this hole.
[41:37] The hole is usually right.
[41:41] Go back to if you don't
mind the picture of the.
[41:44] So the flag and the
hole are usually more
[41:47] on the side towards the wnod.
[41:50] Have we thought
about shifting that.
[41:54] Yeah go.
[41:55] Oh no.
[41:56] Nope yeah.
[41:57] You're right, I'm sorry.
[41:58] Well, the boxes are here.
[41:59] Like this is the.
[42:00] Yeah, that's the tee box.
[42:01] And we shifted the
tee boxes a little
[42:03] bit to point go to the green.
[42:07] Sorry the.
[42:08] Yeah so have we thought
about shifting that over.
[42:13] So not only the tee box.
[42:14] But then we direct the golfer.
[42:16] And again it's never going to
completely stop because you
[42:19] can have a crazy person.
[42:20] But that's why I play
master planning effort.
[42:23] I mean there's funding that
could be used to install
[42:28] a netting solution, but if
that's not necessarily 1.2
[42:33] million, but the golf plan,
the master planning effort is
[42:38] to look at the whole
course and what
[42:40] we want to do with the course
and how it should be aligned.
[42:44] And that's why in
that suggestion,
[42:46] we're talking about
looking holistically at it,
[42:49] because the gentleman on hole 6
also wants a netting solution.
[42:52] We have a netting solution over
were already at Montessori.
[42:56] That one's only feet tall.
[42:59] So it was.
[42:59] It's only 100 linear feet.
[43:01] Feet tall.
[43:01] So it was a relatively low cost.
[43:04] But that's been there
like 20 years, I think.
[43:07] But that was the idea,
was looking at the course
[43:10] and seeing if there's more
realignment to help alleviate
[43:15] some of this interaction.
[43:17] Yeah That's longer term.
[43:19] So again, that's the balance.
[43:22] They've been dealing with
this for quite a while.
[43:25] I don't think that's a
bad long term solution.
[43:29] But I mean, you're
talking about remapping
[43:32] re-engineering basically
a larger effort for sure.
[43:35] Are there any other vendors
that you guys looked at into,
[43:38] like for nets and
stuff like that,
[43:39] or is this just
one specific one.
[43:41] No, we had a few.
[43:42] It's and it's not hard
to get those numbers.
[43:45] Mike Miller out of the golf
course has his association.
[43:49] All of the golf courses
municipal golf courses.
[43:52] They have I think there's
an association for them.
[43:54] In fact, they all share
information and data that's
[43:58] about to go and price for it.
[43:59] And again, those nets, you see,
let's say around a Top Golf
[44:03] or whatever out by the highway.
[44:05] Those I mean that's
millions of dollars
[44:08] worth of netting because it's
got to be wind rated engineered.
[44:11] You got to go down super deep.
[44:13] And if we were to move
forward, we'd have
[44:15] to do an RFP process anyway.
[44:16] And do a purchase
through purchasing.
[44:20] And we can assume that these
nets can guarantee to protect
[44:24] the ball if it goes through it.
[44:26] Correct it's just that it's
over that it becomes a problem.
[44:31] We at 60 feet, you're
probably going to could
[44:33] still get some that go over it.
[44:35] So I couldn't say it
would be definitely
[44:37] help with the
completely affected
[44:39] if it were to hit the
net and hit the net.
[44:41] The net should stop it.
[44:42] Yeah for sure.
[44:43] That's what I'm
thinking here, is
[44:44] that if we go with the
Bush treaty option,
[44:47] that it wouldn't necessarily.
[44:49] It'll take time.
[44:51] It will it'll take some time.
[44:52] Yeah, it would take definitely
a little bit of time there.
[44:56] And then the trees would grow.
[44:57] So yeah.
[44:58] Yeah that's what I mean.
[44:59] It's not an immediate
thing, but I
[45:02] did want to mention
on the netting
[45:03] it's about 10 to 15 years.
[45:05] And there probably have
to be some replacement
[45:07] just as a maintenance piece
of maintenance information.
[45:12] Probably just the netting.
[45:12] Not necessarily stay
within the general fund,
[45:14] never in the operating
in the office.
[45:17] We would try to make this.
[45:18] The golf course covers the cost.
[45:20] So we would try to use the
reserves of the golf course
[45:24] or yeah, future revenues.
[45:27] If we do a 50 year I'm sorry.
[45:30] If we do the master
plan, that's a master
[45:32] plan to look out over the course
of a few decades of these.
[45:37] This is the kind
of thing that would
[45:39] be discussed in the course of
that as a major infrastructure
[45:41] improvement.
[45:42] Yes and I know we already,
at the golf course
[45:44] have significant needs
related to the clubhouse
[45:49] and in the cart.
[45:51] The cart barn.
[45:52] So it's very possible
that we may at some point
[45:56] end up bonding for
all of those things,
[45:59] but we'd be bonding
against the revenue
[46:00] that comes off the golf course.
[46:02] So it wouldn't impact
our general fund.
[46:04] But it's not an
enterprise fund expense.
[46:08] Yeah, it still is.
[46:10] But the debt service,
the debt service
[46:13] is paid for by the enterprise.
[46:14] OK yeah.
[46:16] But we could still bond.
[46:17] Yeah, yeah.
[46:18] Bond enterprise funds.
[46:20] Yeah we've got our credit limit
to not we don't go above to.
[46:24] So we don't threaten our
triple-a golf course has I don't
[46:28] it's not rated like we are.
[46:30] But it would basically
we would go out
[46:33] and borrow money
based on the revenue
[46:34] coming off the golf course.
[46:36] So it doesn't hit against
our debt capacity.
[46:38] And it could depending
on where we go.
[46:40] I mean, it could impact
user fee rates depending
[46:42] on what solution we do.
[46:44] And like I said, the areas that
we have high incidence of claims
[46:49] is up here and down here.
[46:51] We've added trees along here to
try to do something about that.
[46:55] Yeah so there's other areas
we need to look at as it
[46:58] relates to adjacent impacts.
[47:02] So I get the master plan, how
quickly we look at the perimeter
[47:07] and assess those issues
and get something more
[47:11] comprehensive than this one.
[47:15] Because if we're going to
do something right, yeah,
[47:19] we need to know
what that cost is.
[47:21] And that one on the right.
[47:22] How many years is that.
[47:25] This one.
[47:26] Yeah well no, no,
for the whole Mike
[47:28] I see your hand up
will come to you.
[47:29] Sorry 2019 to today.
[47:33] So yeah about a year seven
years and we worth of claims.
[47:39] And we do suspect there might
be some underreporting depending
[47:43] on whose cars are
being damaged so
[47:45] that there could
be stuff happening
[47:46] that we're just not aware of.
[47:48] 
[47:51] How often does that happen.
[47:53] The way the residents.
[47:54] Just so it's hard to say.
[47:58] It's hard to say if normally
if there is damage involved
[48:01] and someone will someone will
find a way to contact about it.
[48:04] I mean, I can definitely
imagine the community center
[48:07] because the whole
one is about whole,
[48:10] and I try not to park in
the front, park in the back.
[48:14] That's why I always
see it empty.
[48:16] I'm like, man, this
could be something.
[48:18] Mike has a question, I believe.
[48:20] Mike thank you.
[48:24] What is the yardage on hole 9.
[48:26] 
[48:30] Pull it up real quick.
[48:30] It should be on mine.
[48:31] Yeah, I don't know.
[48:33] I know it, but I don't know it.
[48:36] Is it a par 3 or par 4.
[48:38] It's a par 4.
[48:39] Yeah OK.
[48:42] I cannot get there in three.
[48:45] He took off.
[48:46] That is it.
[48:48] Once it's over, it's.
[48:51] It's over 400, I believe.
[48:53] They told me and
I don't remember.
[48:55] Yeah because that
if your line right
[48:57] there is at the 200 yard mark.
[49:00] Yeah because the 150 yard
marker is before those trees.
[49:06] Just after the ditch.
[49:08] My reason for asking.
[49:10] Yeah, it's like right here.
[49:10] It's a par 4.
[49:11] There's less that you could
do about it, but is there any.
[49:15] I was just thinking, if there's
a way to shorten the hole
[49:17] and make it 150 yard par 3
and just move the tee box up
[49:22] to that upper right
hand corner that's
[49:25] in the middle of the fairway.
[49:27] And if shortening the
hole actually also
[49:31] takes care of some
of the problem.
[49:33] Yeah well that's
something definitely
[49:34] something could be looked at
as part of the master plan.
[49:36] That's probably
not a viable that's
[49:38] probably not a viable option.
[49:40] So that's why I asked.
[49:42] Well we've had some internal
conversation about the course
[49:47] and as part of the
master planning,
[49:49] like could we make it more.
[49:51] Par 3 as opposed to par 4 to try
to reduce some of that impact
[49:55] on certain holes.
[49:56] But again, that's long term.
[49:57] It is long term.
[49:58] All of these are a lot
of this is long term.
[50:00] Yes so are we.
[50:02] And they're going to
be whatever social
[50:04] will have to be multifaceted.
[50:05] Like if we need
trees which we're
[50:08] going they need to go in now.
[50:10] So yeah at some point
they'll be larger.
[50:13] Better time would have
been 20 years ago.
[50:14] But we can't get that back.
[50:15] So today the trees are nuts.
[50:20] It could be both.
[50:21] I think we need both.
[50:23] So I think it's going to be
a combination of something.
[50:26] But I personally would like to
know the full span of what we
[50:30] might need to do with
perimeter, knowing
[50:32] that there may be other things
that we do inside the course.
[50:34] 
[50:38] You could disagree with.
[50:39] No, I'm aligned with that.
[50:42] All those things I can
bring back in the course
[50:43] of the budget discussion.
[50:45] We can look at it
as part of that.
[50:47] Yeah because we would need.
[50:48] We would definitely need
an Amendment at a minimum.
[50:52] And if I did it, I
couldn't do it this year.
[50:57] What kind of reserves do
we have in the enterprise.
[51:00] It's healthy.
[51:01] Yeah, it's pretty healthy.
[51:02] I don't know exactly,
but it's also I mean,
[51:05] we couldn't use it all on this.
[51:09] We don't have that
kind of I mean,
[51:10] we have funding for
the master planning.
[51:14] So if we wanted to maybe
do a more specific look
[51:19] at the perimeter
piece, we might be
[51:21] able to use some of that already
budgeted funding for that,
[51:23] because we haven't
quite launched
[51:24] the master planning effort yet.
[51:26] So we need to talk about scope.
[51:28] So that could be
something we could do
[51:30] because that funding is there.
[51:32] We wanted to get
somebody to help.
[51:34] 
[51:37] Kelvin, you have a
question or comment.
[51:41] And so the netting.
[51:45] So like the size of the netting.
[51:47] So if you were to put trees
and netting how much would
[51:51] that actually cost.
[51:53] So that would be
the 80 or the 60.
[51:57] The 80.
[51:58] It has to be 80.
[52:00] Yeah 80 foot.
[52:01] That's like 1.2
over with the trees.
[52:05] It'd be close to 1.5, 3.0.
[52:08] So the feet is it's because of
the height and the engineering
[52:12] and how deep you got to go and
the types of poles, it just.
[52:16] Yeah, it's a little
more I thought
[52:18] it would be like some cutoff
like, OK, we'll use I don't 450
[52:22] and then the rest
trees everywhere.
[52:23] Well OK.
[52:24] That's a good point.
[52:25] What I'm quoting is
from here to 450.
[52:28] And if you wanted to say, do
200, that would reduce it.
[52:34] But if there's
another variation,
[52:37] it's just we were
trying to catch.
[52:40] It's hard to say where
the balls are coming from
[52:42] and how they're
exiting the course.
[52:44] And so we wanted to try to
get because I would hate
[52:46] to invest that much
and miss the spot
[52:50] that they're exiting through.
[52:54] Yeah and realistically, we
should get Dominion to tell us.
[52:59] Yeah, we need before
we go too far.
[53:02] We need to know what it's
not permissible power lines,
[53:05] but it's close.
[53:06] So there's an easement on that.
[53:08] But we're talking about
putting it on our side.
[53:10] But if the pole came down
right there they might still.
[53:14] So we'd have to work with them
on what's it 50 or 100 foot
[53:20] by default. They have is feet.
[53:23] Is the easement feet.
[53:24] And like I said, they
have access point.
[53:28] I want to say it's
right around here.
[53:31] 
[53:33] To get into their
utilities from the course.
[53:36] So we'd we were
talking about doing
[53:39] netting where it's stops here.
[53:40] And then there's a section that
starts here so they can get in.
[53:45] So we definitely
have to coordinate.
[53:47] We were talking about
that with the trees too.
[53:49] How do you layer it to
where they can still
[53:51] get a vehicle in or
confirm that they even
[53:54] need that access right there.
[53:55] I'm not entirely
sure why they have
[53:58] it, so that we could be able to
get in short order to the trees.
[54:02] No, the Dominion
Power information.
[54:05] Yeah, we can work with them
if the netting solution is
[54:10] something you all would like
to see more information on,
[54:14] we can get some
more information.
[54:18] If you're thinking
of sectioning,
[54:22] I would want to have somebody
like more informed on golf
[54:27] courses.
[54:27] So yeah, of course,
help with that
[54:29] to identify what would be
the best location for that
[54:33] if we're going to
invest in, let's
[54:36] say Dominion is OK with feet.
[54:39] So what phase.
[54:43] So if we broke this up into
phases with the limited budgets,
[54:49] what could we get done sooner.
[54:53] And what does that look
like in terms of here's
[54:56] the total solution phase.
[54:59] Vegetative planning could go
in first because that's yeah,
[55:02] we could do on our
property vegetation
[55:05] hopefully in this planting
season, which is coming up.
[55:08] So that I think we have I
think we have some funding.
[55:11] I think for that we
could do that would
[55:14] be along the tree line there
and addressing that gap.
[55:19] Phase 2, Dominion is coming out.
[55:21] I know they're coming
out to do more spraying.
[55:24] And I think we just got some
communication from staff today
[55:27] about that, of wanting to
talk to them a little bit more
[55:29] about what other
planting can they do.
[55:31] They have been amenable to it.
[55:33] They're not putting
huge trees, but they're
[55:35] definitely putting some
evergreens and some things.
[55:38] Like I said, behind 1119,
they're putting some vegetation.
[55:41] Which house is 1119?
[55:42] It's the furthest all
the way on the end
[55:45] in the call to add the call.
[55:46] Yes The property damage claim
is this house right now.
[55:54] Wow gosh, that's a strong swing.
[55:56] That's a bad shot.
[55:58] Yeah like I said, I
mean, strong and wild.
[56:00] We have some amateurs, and
technology has improved.
[56:05] And I do think that is
impacting how hard and far some
[56:08] of these golf balls are going.
[56:10] So again, I'll just beat this
dead horse one last time.
[56:13] Why don't we just bond.
[56:17] Why are we trying to scrape up.
[56:19] I mean, I get that
it's a minimal amount.
[56:21] It's not a matter of us
having the money or not.
[56:23] It's a matter of
council deciding.
[56:26] Is that much money worth
spending for basically
[56:32] a one in 250,000 chance.
[56:37] Even I said, even if we went
from three average claims
[56:41] a year to 30, that's still
way less than a $1.2 million
[56:50] net is going to cost,
and a 12 $2 billion net
[56:53] is probably also going.
[56:55] Even if we borrowed for that,
it's going to severely limit.
[57:00] 
[57:04] The amount we have in
reserves for the golf course
[57:07] and the ability to
do anything else out
[57:08] there for the foreseeable
unless we Jack up rates a lot
[57:14] to cover it.
[57:15] So it's just more of a cost
risk analysis in my opinion.
[57:18] It's not a matter of, do
we have the money or not.
[57:20] So again, not to guess when
we do the full 1.4 million
[57:26] whatever.
[57:27] But option two was that we
combined 2, 4 and 5 with I
[57:33] mean that somewhere South of.
[57:36] No, no, no.
[57:36] If you want to do option two.
[57:39] Yeah I mean that would just work
that into next year's budget
[57:43] discussion because there's going
to be other stuff related to the
[57:46] we keep going back
to the budget again.
[57:48] That would be increasing.
[57:50] No no no it I would
use fund balance out
[57:53] of this for any regard.
[57:56] So it's not a matter of I
would use the Enterprise
[58:00] fund, the enterprise funds fund
balance if we needed to use
[58:06] the towns, the
general funds fund
[58:08] balance, that's also an option.
[58:09] So it's not a matter of money.
[58:12] It's a matter of how
much do you want to spend
[58:16] on insurance kind of question.
[58:19] 
[58:23] And again, it's
whatever solution
[58:28] we put up there will still
be golf balls in the yard.
[58:32] I can't stop animals
from dropping and doing
[58:36] that, which goes into some
damage is caused if a mower
[58:40] catches it and hooks it.
[58:42] If there's balls that
land in the vegetation,
[58:46] they can rock it
out like the siding
[58:48] damage is pretty significant.
[58:50] On the one and that is
definitely a ball rocketing.
[58:54] I don't know how it
happened, but it's
[58:57] a hole in the siding, so
probably got hit by a lawnmower.
[59:00] I mean, otherwise we're
not sure it's physically
[59:02] possible for a ball
to go that distance
[59:06] and punch a hole in siding.
[59:08] Yeah so to say all that
it's not going to it
[59:13] will keep balls that are errant
from going through in that area.
[59:17] Yeah I just want to
set expectations.
[59:20] So if I think I'm
hearing us converge on.
[59:26] So if we can get
fall planning inning.
[59:29] We at least want to do some
plantings and vegetative stuff
[59:33] in any solution we would
need to direct for sure.
[59:36] Now so that way that can
be planned this fall.
[59:40] Are we in agreement there.
[59:42] Yes OK.
[59:42] We have some
informational needs.
[59:46] And since any kind of netting
solutions going to have to come
[59:50] through a budget
Amendment and we
[59:51] have to do procurements
or anything
[59:53] if we choose to do that.
[59:54] Do I have here convergence on
Get the additional information
[59:59] on Dominion easement
concerns, the pass through
[1:00:06] and any alternatives there.
[1:00:08] And look at the rest
of the perimeters,
[1:00:11] because I would want
to package up anything
[1:00:14] that we're doing in a budget
Amendment or whatever together.
[1:00:17] Yeah and that would
include the 700 foot.
[1:00:20] And then we would
come back once we
[1:00:22] have that information,
700 or 80 foot
[1:00:25] height, 80 foot height or both.
[1:00:27] Well, I think the 80
might be a stretch.
[1:00:33] I mean, I guess asking
Dominion if you can ask them,
[1:00:37] but I think we need to
know what Dominion says.
[1:00:41] But then all right,
then we get to
[1:00:43] a real financial conversation.
[1:00:45] That's a huge hole in
the budget at that point.
[1:00:47] So well, yeah, I mean do it all.
[1:00:50] But my preference would be that
entire because you got people
[1:00:54] that I mean I've
seen people play
[1:00:57] this course even at if
you're on your third shot,
[1:01:01] there is a chance.
[1:01:03] That thing goes sideways.
[1:01:06] So yeah, it's not always.
[1:01:08] But your third shot
is not a driver.
[1:01:10] So for most people,
yeah, but you
[1:01:13] got people out there drinking.
[1:01:14] I mean, it's like LEGOs.
[1:01:16] So no, I would be in favor
of the full 700 at the 60
[1:01:22] and then look at options
for the 450 at 80.
[1:01:26] Et cetera I think as
far as the distance
[1:01:34] and how far we need
to go, I definitely
[1:01:37] would want to enlist a
expert in golf course
[1:01:41] to give us a better idea
of what that prime spot is,
[1:01:44] to protect the houses
all along that area.
[1:01:47] I would assume Mike has people.
[1:01:49] Yeah Cool OK.
[1:01:53] Anything else from anyone.
[1:01:55] Long term in master
plan, we need to look at.
[1:01:59] Lots of other things regarding
interior of the course and.
[1:02:02] Yes OK I think I
have what I need.
[1:02:08] Great thanks.
[1:02:10] I'm not going to stop sharing.
[1:02:12] Yeah OK.
[1:02:15] Thank you.
[1:02:17] Thank you.
[1:02:20] All right.
[1:02:21] I will now recognize
Mike shingledecker,
[1:02:23] our transportation engineer,
to begin the discussion
[1:02:26] of traffic calming,
crosswalks, crosswalks,
[1:02:29] and bike safety discussion.
[1:02:30] And Chief will also
be assisting this.
[1:02:34] Chief, we have a spot
for you up here too.
[1:02:36] Thanks Oh, by the
way, that's it.
[1:02:40] 
[1:02:43] Actually, kick it off
with a couple things
[1:02:45] while they're getting settled.
[1:02:47] So you guys know
Mr. shingledecker
[1:02:50] and chief behonick, we
want to hit two topics
[1:02:54] tonight that are very timely.
[1:02:57] One is traffic.
[1:02:58] Now, of course, we're hearing.
[1:03:02] More and more interest we've got
in traffic calming around town.
[1:03:08] We've got our drive
differently effort.
[1:03:10] We've got a variety
of different things.
[1:03:13] But one of the things
that happens all the time
[1:03:15] is we have residents
come to us and say,
[1:03:18] can we get a stop sign here.
[1:03:19] Can we get a crosswalk there.
[1:03:21] Will you lower the speed
limit from there to there.
[1:03:23] I'm sure all of
you, especially when
[1:03:25] you're out and about
talking to residents,
[1:03:27] you get similar questions.
[1:03:29] So today Mike's going to
talk a little bit about what
[1:03:32] that process looks like.
[1:03:33] Because a lot happens.
[1:03:34] We can't just slap a
stop sign in somewhere.
[1:03:36] A lot happens behind the scene.
[1:03:39] And we take a look at
all the requests we get.
[1:03:41] So Mike's going
to talk about that
[1:03:42] and some of the common
measures that you
[1:03:46] frequently get asked for.
[1:03:48] So when you're out and
about can talk a little bit
[1:03:51] about why things can't
go in certain places
[1:03:55] or why they could.
[1:03:57] And then chief is going
to talk about e-bikes,
[1:03:59] another hot topic of the day,
more and more on the trail
[1:04:03] and around town.
[1:04:05] A lot of illegal bicycles,
electric bicycles.
[1:04:10] And we've got an event
coming up tomorrow,
[1:04:12] actually, about the topic.
[1:04:16] Mike.
[1:04:17] Thanks, Dan.
[1:04:18] Good evening council.
[1:04:20] Wonderful to be in
front of you again.
[1:04:23] Quick, quick, brief history
of where we've been.
[1:04:26] Back in 2011, we had this
thing neighbor travel
[1:04:30] guide and then that
supported that was
[1:04:33] this marked crosswalk guide.
[1:04:36] We merge these two
things together
[1:04:37] about two years ago in
2024, and adopted standards
[1:04:41] for traffic calming crosswalks.
[1:04:42] That's this one.
[1:04:43] And we clarified the process
that involves how our residents
[1:04:50] and members of our community
essentially ask for things
[1:04:53] in the transportation
network and how that moves,
[1:04:56] what supports our
findings to help clarify
[1:05:00] how we operate internally.
[1:05:04] So what we have
up on the screen,
[1:05:06] this little timeline is
what the requester sees when
[1:05:09] they want to see
something change
[1:05:10] in our transportation network.
[1:05:12] They'll report it,
clarify details about it.
[1:05:15] And then we may ask for
additional information.
[1:05:18] We may hold a public meeting
or something like that.
[1:05:21] And then we'll track it
through a funding process,
[1:05:24] a programmatic process.
[1:05:26] And then one of the
key changes that we
[1:05:28] made in the 2024 standards
was the after study process.
[1:05:32] Making sure that what
we did is actually
[1:05:35] being effective and using
data to justify that case.
[1:05:40] If you aren't fully
aware internally,
[1:05:43] staff has a committee called
the traffic engineering
[1:05:47] improvement committee.
[1:05:48] Teak will sometimes
refer to it as.
[1:05:51] And this is comprised
entirely of staff
[1:05:53] from Department of Public Works,
engineering operations, Herndon
[1:05:57] police department and planning.
[1:05:59] And we'll pull in
others as necessary.
[1:06:01] And really that's
there to help staff
[1:06:03] holistically look at concerns
and requests that we receive.
[1:06:07] 
[1:06:10] So the question is,
how does it all start.
[1:06:12] Herndon on the go.
[1:06:13] Our app is honestly the number
one way to put in service
[1:06:17] requests because it generates.
[1:06:19] I didn't even know that.
[1:06:20] OK, well, we can link
up with the link there.
[1:06:25] And we'll continue to try
to get that information out.
[1:06:27] That generates a work order
internal to our system,
[1:06:30] and it gets routed immediately
to the team that does that work.
[1:06:33] So if there's a traffic
calming complaint,
[1:06:35] it literally comes to me.
[1:06:36] I get it in my inbox.
[1:06:38] If there's a signage complaint,
it goes to a signage team.
[1:06:40] If it's a safety complaint,
if it's life threatening,
[1:06:43] call 911 or dispatch.
[1:06:45] But if it's non-life
threatening,
[1:06:47] we can route it to HPD
as well in the process
[1:06:49] that when we get these
types of requests,
[1:06:52] the more detail is better.
[1:06:53] A picture is worth
a thousand words.
[1:06:55] It helps us understand
what's happening,
[1:06:57] because the way that staff
looks at these requests
[1:07:00] in our transportation
network isn't what you want.
[1:07:04] I want a stop sign.
[1:07:05] It's about the problem.
[1:07:06] People are not paying
attention to pedestrians here.
[1:07:09] Those are two different things
from the staff perspective,
[1:07:12] and we have different
engineering countermeasures
[1:07:14] based on what's
actually being observed,
[1:07:16] the problem at in hand.
[1:07:18] And again.
[1:07:19] So this is very dry.
[1:07:21] This is an engineering document.
[1:07:22] That's why I'm not sharing
too much directly from it.
[1:07:25] It is available on our
website within our Department
[1:07:28] of Public Works section.
[1:07:29] So I can always link that
if you would like that.
[1:07:33] And when that comes
in it gets logged
[1:07:36] and we track that continuously
through the process.
[1:07:39] We have a couple
different levels
[1:07:40] of how we understand requests.
[1:07:42] At a basic level, if it's
something very simple,
[1:07:44] like a sign is damaged or a Bush
is in the way of sight distance,
[1:07:48] we can process
that very quickly.
[1:07:50] A work order goes out
and our operations team
[1:07:52] takes care of it.
[1:07:53] If it maybe involves a
little bit more detail,
[1:07:56] perhaps we need
to collect traffic
[1:07:58] data, something like that.
[1:08:00] We may bring on call engineer
staff may self-perform it,
[1:08:04] but usually those
things go to teak
[1:08:06] and we make sure that we're
looking at it holistically
[1:08:08] and multidisciplinary from a
multidisciplinary approach.
[1:08:11] When things get complicated,
say we need to add a lane
[1:08:15] or add a traffic signal.
[1:08:16] That's where we have to really
ramp up the level of detail.
[1:08:19] And we may go to vdot
and ask for their support
[1:08:23] or seek grant funding.
[1:08:24] Those can take a long time
years to process those requests.
[1:08:27] But we do track them
and we keep them
[1:08:29] moving as the need justifies.
[1:08:33] And like our standards that
we have outlined in the guide,
[1:08:37] they're not just
stuff we came up with.
[1:08:39] It's best practices.
[1:08:41] It's federal dot standards.
[1:08:44] It's right from a lot
of different sources.
[1:08:48] Yeah, this document wasn't
just staff prepared.
[1:08:50] We did bring our third
party engineer to help
[1:08:53] US Aggregate best practices.
[1:08:54] We compared it to
peer jurisdictions
[1:08:56] such as Falls Church or Vienna.
[1:08:58] We're using vdot guidance.
[1:09:00] They are our state
body of knowledge
[1:09:03] when it comes to transportation
and following best practice.
[1:09:06] That's why we had this
update in the first place,
[1:09:08] is to keep us at the
cutting edge of traffic
[1:09:10] calming and pedestrian safety.
[1:09:13] Thanks all right.
[1:09:17] A couple of quick
definitions just
[1:09:18] to get a sense of what
I'm talking about when
[1:09:20] we talk about traffic calming.
[1:09:22] These are changes
within the roadway
[1:09:25] within our
transportation facilities
[1:09:28] that change a behavior.
[1:09:30] There is a reason
for them to be there.
[1:09:33] And very often it's
safety oriented
[1:09:35] reducing speed, improving
visibility, or enabling
[1:09:39] a safer pedestrian crossing.
[1:09:43] We do have limitations
on where certain things
[1:09:45] can be implemented.
[1:09:47] So for example, a lot of
people ask for speed humps.
[1:09:49] It's a very popular
request when we have buses
[1:09:53] or we have an arterial facility
that's maybe 35 miles an hour,
[1:09:57] those become a
balance of operations.
[1:10:00] Damage to vehicles
speed can damage buses.
[1:10:04] Especially think of
a school bus when
[1:10:06] you have 50 school children.
[1:10:08] It's a lot of weight
on the suspension.
[1:10:10] We try to avoid heavily
impactful full countermeasures.
[1:10:14] Instead, we'd rather use
behavioral modifications
[1:10:16] like our speed feedback signs.
[1:10:18] So we do have a fair number
of those in our community.
[1:10:20] There are just different tools
that we use in engineering
[1:10:23] to elicit a change.
[1:10:26] Anytime we do traffic
calming, it's data based,
[1:10:28] we collect speeds
out in the field.
[1:10:31] You probably haven't seen our
little data collection boxes.
[1:10:34] They're about yay big,
about inches to 10.
[1:10:37] They're very discreet,
and the intent
[1:10:39] is to deploy those in a way
that doesn't affect behavior
[1:10:43] that's sometimes laugh.
[1:10:45] Oh, when are you
doing data collection.
[1:10:46] You usually say, we're
not telling you because we
[1:10:48] want it to be unbiased.
[1:10:49] We want our data to be truthful.
[1:10:51] We also, of course,
look at Crash history
[1:10:54] and conduct staff observations.
[1:10:56] So you'll probably
see me out and about
[1:10:58] on occasion in my safety desk
watching what's going on.
[1:11:01] And the more detail I
get on the front end,
[1:11:03] the more we understand
on the back end
[1:11:04] how to and what to look for.
[1:11:08] There is a key
decision gate that we
[1:11:10] do use in terms
of traffic calming
[1:11:12] with respect to vehicle
speeds, because that
[1:11:14] is such a prevalent request.
[1:11:16] We use what's called the
85th percentile speed.
[1:11:19] It's the measured speed
at which 85% of vehicles
[1:11:22] are traveling at or below.
[1:11:26] That is usually the industry
accepted threshold for what
[1:11:32] we call speeding in a sense.
[1:11:33] And it has to be
10 miles an hour
[1:11:35] above the posted speed limit.
[1:11:37] That's not arbitrary.
[1:11:38] It's not something
staff came up with.
[1:11:40] It's accepted
within the industry
[1:11:42] as an appropriate balance of
data, real world conditions,
[1:11:47] and then a response to that.
[1:11:49] 
[1:11:52] Crosswalks a little bit more
straightforward in terms
[1:11:55] of what we're looking for.
[1:11:57] We're making sure they're
spaced sufficiently
[1:12:00] from other crosswalks.
[1:12:01] So we don't have too many
crossings all at once.
[1:12:03] That can be very
difficult to manage
[1:12:06] for both pedestrians
and drivers when
[1:12:08] there's too many interruptions.
[1:12:10] And again, we use data such
as how many pedestrians are
[1:12:12] crossing at a
particular location
[1:12:15] to justify
implementing something
[1:12:16] that is going to be impactful
to vehicular travel flow.
[1:12:20] 
[1:12:22] All right.
[1:12:23] So how do we actually
come up with the solutions
[1:12:24] we're going for.
[1:12:26] The timeline at the
bottom is what you would
[1:12:28] expect through the practice.
[1:12:30] But in general, it's
professionals making
[1:12:33] judgment calls based on data.
[1:12:34] That's what it
all comes down to.
[1:12:37] If it's significantly going
impact going to significantly
[1:12:41] impact a transportation
facility,
[1:12:43] we may hold a community meeting.
[1:12:45] We do a couple of times a year
with a focus on transportation.
[1:12:48] Or we may engage
a specific group.
[1:12:52] So for example, when we did
our Bennett street traffic
[1:12:54] calming review, we actually
had at the time, our youth
[1:12:59] advisory committee
acting as a focus group
[1:13:02] and involving those that are
directly affected by any changes
[1:13:05] that we're proposing.
[1:13:06] 
[1:13:09] How the change happens.
[1:13:10] Again, it depends on the scale.
[1:13:12] We do have programmatic
and operational funds that
[1:13:14] allow us to make minor changes.
[1:13:16] We try to leverage
our paving repaving
[1:13:19] program, our concrete
maintenance programs
[1:13:22] to take advantage of those.
[1:13:23] So again, Bennett street was a
great example of this, where we
[1:13:26] had to repave the road anyway.
[1:13:28] We had to do concrete
repair anyway.
[1:13:30] So we tacked on the
traffic calming elements
[1:13:33] to help leverage
multiple funding accounts
[1:13:35] and keep it cost
effective for larger work.
[1:13:40] It enters into the
CIP, which you all are
[1:13:42] familiar with at this point.
[1:13:44] Or we may seek grant funding,
depending on the scale.
[1:13:49] All right.
[1:13:50] So once we're done, once it's
in place, we do measure it.
[1:13:53] And if we find that we've
generated a new safety issue,
[1:13:56] we should be capturing those.
[1:13:58] But we do reserve the
authority to remove it.
[1:14:01] If we've created
a new problem, we
[1:14:03] want to make sure we
put in a safe and moving
[1:14:05] in the right direction.
[1:14:07] But on top of that, we will
assess if it's effective
[1:14:10] and go back out
with something else
[1:14:11] with the data suggests
otherwise isn't working.
[1:14:16] The other thing
that's pretty much
[1:14:18] all I wanted to share with that.
[1:14:21] I did pass out a print
version of the roadway
[1:14:23] safety action plan.
[1:14:24] This is the exact
same thing that's
[1:14:25] online as we start
to get requests,
[1:14:30] because we do now have
a high Injury Network.
[1:14:32] And this is essentially
a legislative priority.
[1:14:35] That said, these
are the locations
[1:14:36] where we're trying to
focus the projects in here
[1:14:39] are going to get a
little bit more priority
[1:14:41] than any community concerns
that are tangential or adjacent
[1:14:46] to those areas.
[1:14:47] Not that we would ignore them,
but this is where we're trying
[1:14:50] to get the most bang for our
buck in reducing the injuries
[1:14:53] we have on our roadway.
[1:14:55] And transportation facilities.
[1:14:57] So that's kind of a new thing.
[1:14:59] We haven't exactly worked
it into our process yet.
[1:15:03] We might come out with a version
1.1 or something like that.
[1:15:06] There's a couple changes we
want to implement anyway.
[1:15:09] Roadway safety action
plan will start to color
[1:15:12] how we approach some of these,
especially when it comes
[1:15:14] to larger capital funding.
[1:15:16] So I don't know if we want to go
right into chief's presentation.
[1:15:21] We can pause briefly
for questions for me.
[1:15:24] Otherwise, great work.
[1:15:26] Thank you.
[1:15:28] I have a quick question.
[1:15:29] Yes, sir.
[1:15:30] You can tell me it's too early
and not statistically relevant,
[1:15:32] but with school starting, do
you have any anecdotal things
[1:15:36] that you can share around
all the measures that we put
[1:15:39] in place and what it may
be doing impact wise,
[1:15:43] specifically at Bennett
street or administrator.
[1:15:46] We haven't received, knock on
wood, a single complaint, only
[1:15:50] positive feedback
from school parents,
[1:15:53] Bus Operations and the folks at
the church across the street.
[1:15:57] And did we get signalization
changed during the signalization
[1:16:04] station at the intersection
of Bennett street
[1:16:06] and Janesville road is
functioning as we expected it.
[1:16:09] We're processing all vehicles,
all school bus departures,
[1:16:13] and essentially a single cycle.
[1:16:14] Sometimes there's
some stragglers
[1:16:16] if they're moving a little
slow, but we've essentially,
[1:16:20] I would say,
completely effective.
[1:16:23] We are planning to go collect
speed data in the next month
[1:16:28] or two once
conditions normalize,
[1:16:31] and I'll be able to confidently
bring back some data that says,
[1:16:34] from a speed perspective,
we were all so successful.
[1:16:36] And then over time, crash trends
will tell us that as well.
[1:16:40] But anecdotally, 100% success.
[1:16:45] OK thank you chief.
[1:16:48] Sure yeah.
[1:16:49] Thanks Are you
bringing up for me.
[1:16:53] Yeah, thanks.
[1:16:55] OK OK.
[1:17:03] So we'll get into the e-bikes.
[1:17:07] We started maybe
around springtime is
[1:17:11] when we really started seeing.
[1:17:13] And when we talk
about e-bikes we're
[1:17:14] talking about more motorcycles.
[1:17:17] We're not having problems
with the e-bikes that we
[1:17:20] call with the pedals and stuff.
[1:17:21] So we saw a lot of problems with
and we have a lot of youngsters
[1:17:26] on e-bikes or the motorcycles.
[1:17:29] And now these things get up
to 30, 40, 70 miles an hour.
[1:17:34] I'll tell you in a minute.
[1:17:36] Yeah they're fast.
[1:17:38] So yeah.
[1:17:39] Yeah I'm sorry.
[1:17:41] So what we're seeing a lot is
these over on the far right.
[1:17:45] They're basically motorcycles
and much smaller ones.
[1:17:47] The one on the far right,
their dirt bikes, dirt bikes,
[1:17:51] they're going up
and down the trail.
[1:17:52] And so that's what we've
been really working on.
[1:17:54] But what we're
doing is it's really
[1:17:57] an education because
parents are buying
[1:18:00] these things for their kids.
[1:18:01] They don't know
what they're buying.
[1:18:03] They don't know if
they're legal or not.
[1:18:04] And we're trying to especially
when we get kids out
[1:18:08] on the trail that
we're stopping when
[1:18:10] they're crossing over our
roads, we're stopping them.
[1:18:12] And we'll call the
parents to the scene.
[1:18:15] We've been seizing
them from adults,
[1:18:17] putting them on flatbeds,
impounding them.
[1:18:20] So you'll see
that, the state has
[1:18:24] given us these classifications
class Ii, and three.
[1:18:27] Some of these are.
[1:18:27] Pedal pedal assist.
[1:18:28] Some of them also have the
capability of some throttle,
[1:18:31] but they all have some
form of pedal assist.
[1:18:33] So anything that exceeds
those standards like it
[1:18:36] says on the bottom illegal.
[1:18:39] And Chief, when you say
folks are getting these
[1:18:42] for their kids, a lot
of the illegal ones,
[1:18:44] they're getting online.
[1:18:46] Yes these are like
Amazon, Amazon,
[1:18:49] our local bike shops will
sell you legal e-bikes
[1:18:53] or the scooters,
giving you any issues
[1:18:55] as you see a lot of
kids with the scooters.
[1:18:58] Yeah, not just kids.
[1:18:59] I've seen an adult down
Eldon street in the middle
[1:19:02] of the street going on to
say, yeah, we do see those
[1:19:05] and they're there in the road,
but once you're in the roadway,
[1:19:07] you become a motor
vehicle essentially.
[1:19:09] Just like so you're subject
to the laws and regulations
[1:19:12] of the problems
that we're seeing
[1:19:15] is that when you're
walking down our bike path
[1:19:18] here and someone scoots by
you going 30 miles an hour,
[1:19:21] that's a problem.
[1:19:23] And also on the streets, we
don't want kids getting hurt
[1:19:26] and traffic accidents
because a lot of them
[1:19:28] are not wearing helmets either.
[1:19:29] Yeah they don't even
have license plates.
[1:19:31] So now how are you going to
get the insurance from them.
[1:19:34] And they shouldn't be using cell
phones while they're operating,
[1:19:40] because I've seen
kids almost run
[1:19:41] into telephone poles on their
phone while on an e-bike.
[1:19:45] Yeah, yeah.
[1:19:47] How many people you
can fit on one e-bike
[1:19:49] is also something
I see regularly.
[1:19:51] Yeah out my window.
[1:19:53] Yeah Yeah and this is
I mean this problem
[1:19:56] this is not going to go away.
[1:19:57] This is the transportation
mode in the future,
[1:20:00] and it's here now.
[1:20:01] But we've just got to work
make it the safest and the best
[1:20:06] we can to make it
work for the town.
[1:20:07] So this is part of
the presentation,
[1:20:10] we're going to be giving
to the town tomorrow night.
[1:20:12] It's at the community center.
[1:20:14] We wanted to really launch this
with a good educational piece
[1:20:17] for everybody.
[1:20:18] And really this is an
education for the parents.
[1:20:20] We're hoping that's the crowd
that's going to show up.
[1:20:24] So this is our roadways, bike
lanes permitted, sidewalks
[1:20:29] and trails generally permitted.
[1:20:32] And this is for our e-bikes
that fit those classifications.
[1:20:35] We're not talking
about the motorcycles,
[1:20:39] the helmet required.
[1:20:42] There is a local ordinance
that would make that under 15.
[1:20:46] We don't have that.
[1:20:48] But, all the other laws there
do apply for e-bike riders
[1:20:52] here in the state.
[1:20:55] So this is your typical bike
that we're seeing out there.
[1:20:59] So the 15 greater than
1,500 watts, that becomes
[1:21:03] essentially motorcycles.
[1:21:04] So isn't it.
[1:21:06] Sorry these are
not pedal assist.
[1:21:09] Just throttle over
20 is basically
[1:21:13] these are not pedal assist.
[1:21:14] These are just strictly
throttle mini motorcycles.
[1:21:18] And when you see them
you try to stop them.
[1:21:21] Yes OK.
[1:21:23] I mean, we have people.
[1:21:24] I'll show you some stats here.
[1:21:25] What we've been doing
over the last month.
[1:21:26] We have a lot of people that
run to they just see us.
[1:21:29] And do you guys have
a chase policy here.
[1:21:33] No we're going to be
very careful about.
[1:21:36] Do you want to chase policy.
[1:21:37] No we have a pursuit policy.
[1:21:40] It's not like he's thinking pit.
[1:21:44] No no no no no no no.
[1:21:46] So a lot of times
if it's a kid, we're
[1:21:51] going to know who they are.
[1:21:52] We'll go find them.
[1:21:53] But we don't want to
cause a bigger issue.
[1:21:57] When they take off, not
fully developed brains
[1:22:00] sometimes with everybody.
[1:22:01] So are they wearing helmets.
[1:22:03] Well, we see it both sides.
[1:22:05] We see somewhere in
helmets, some not.
[1:22:07] So quick question
for the 50 cc's
[1:22:10] does Virginia like
DC law you need
[1:22:12] to have it's like 40 CC you
need to have a vehicle register.
[1:22:16] Is it the same here.
[1:22:17] Yeah so if anything is greater
than any of those numbers there,
[1:22:20] essentially it becomes
a motorcycle that has
[1:22:22] to be registered or insured.
[1:22:24] All that.
[1:22:24] So anything above
those parameters
[1:22:27] automatically
becomes motorcycle.
[1:22:28] Not legal on especially
on the trails.
[1:22:32] Can't ride and people
are modifying these now.
[1:22:36] So like 750.
[1:22:38] We had one the other
day that we stopped.
[1:22:40] That was 35,000w.
[1:22:42] It went 0 to 60 in
like three seconds.
[1:22:45] It's crazy.
[1:22:46] And he was riding
on the wnod here.
[1:22:48] He stopped and he impounded it.
[1:22:50] So this is just some more
Paramus sidewalks and operated.
[1:22:56] These are the motorcycles.
[1:22:57] Basically, if you have
a nice piece of property
[1:22:59] somewhere in the
country, or there's
[1:23:00] a place designated on private
property where you can ride it,
[1:23:04] that's fine.
[1:23:05] But in Herndon,
there's probably not
[1:23:08] a lot of places like that here.
[1:23:10] So this is some of these are
some of the pamphlets that we
[1:23:15] created that we put
on social media who
[1:23:18] are going to be handing
out to the public tomorrow.
[1:23:20] We get this stuff out there that
parents just have to understand.
[1:23:25] We pulled over, I think it
was a 12 or 13-year-old kid
[1:23:28] and parents had no idea they
got their dad was a little upset
[1:23:32] because he spent his money on
this thing, but he can't ride
[1:23:35] any private property.
[1:23:37] We ran into that
kid a few days later
[1:23:39] who was riding a
regular bicycle,
[1:23:41] and we said, oh,
where's your bike.
[1:23:43] He said, well, my dad won't
let me drive it anymore.
[1:23:45] So that's the
education part of it.
[1:23:48] It's working.
[1:23:48] Yes, it could be.
[1:23:51] So So this is just some
more things here that we're
[1:23:55] going to be giving the public.
[1:23:56] So that way they have
a good understanding.
[1:23:57] We just want the
knowledge is out there.
[1:23:59] So in the last, I would say
this was sometime from mid-july
[1:24:03] into maybe the end of August.
[1:24:05] This is just a little snapshot.
[1:24:07] We had 22 of those motor
I mean it's not e-bikes
[1:24:09] but motorcycles stopped.
[1:24:11] We impounded eight of them,
10 of them, either warnings
[1:24:15] or talking to the parents.
[1:24:17] Call the parents to the scene.
[1:24:19] Eight of those 22 were
cited, some of them
[1:24:23] with multiple citations, because
there was multiple violations.
[1:24:26] So a little bit of enforcement
in there, heavy on the education
[1:24:30] part right now.
[1:24:33] So we had them at
the community picnic.
[1:24:36] We just got them.
[1:24:36] We just got two recon
interceptor bikes.
[1:24:39] They're specifically made for
police, very heavy duty bikes.
[1:24:43] And, if we want to be out there
patrolling, we need to have,
[1:24:47] we need to be able to paddle
and keep up with those guys.
[1:24:50] So do we have officers that
can go 0 to 60 and no hours.
[1:24:54] No, because we have to be
within those restricted.
[1:24:55] These are legal.
[1:24:56] These are legal.
[1:24:58] These are pedal assist.
[1:24:59] These are pedal assist.
[1:25:00] So you guys don't use segues
or anything like that.
[1:25:03] No so you guys use this now.
[1:25:04] Yeah they're great.
[1:25:05] Yeah I tested them when
they brought them here.
[1:25:07] They're fun.
[1:25:08] They're great.
[1:25:09] They're safe.
[1:25:10] They're heavy duty.
[1:25:11] So we got them
with a state grant.
[1:25:14] There's a heat grant
that we got them with.
[1:25:16] So I'd love to get two
more at some point.
[1:25:18] Maybe put in for
it again next year.
[1:25:21] So yeah, so far they've
been in the public's been
[1:25:24] loving seeing them out there.
[1:25:25] So this is the bike
flyer that's been out.
[1:25:30] Obviously we put out
in two languages there
[1:25:32] for everybody because
we'll have translation
[1:25:35] services there as well tomorrow
night for that meeting.
[1:25:40] So this is Vienna police
department reached out to us
[1:25:44] and chief Janicki down there.
[1:25:45] We're going to do
a rodeo with them.
[1:25:47] Kind of these two
towns coming together
[1:25:49] is that we're going to do a
safety bike rodeo down there.
[1:25:53] At the end of the
month, we'll send
[1:25:55] some of our motor units down
there, some of our bike team,
[1:25:57] kind of a good fun
event with Vienna.
[1:25:59] And then my hope was
to do one here locally,
[1:26:02] maybe a little bit later on.
[1:26:04] Get some of our businesses
involved with that as well,
[1:26:07] and maybe invite in
one of the other towns
[1:26:08] from North of us,
Leesburg or something,
[1:26:10] to come down and do that, to
keep that chain moving up.
[1:26:12] Percival and Percival
or yeah anywhere,
[1:26:15] so we're just trying to
stay on top of things
[1:26:18] get do the education part, have
a little fun with the families
[1:26:22] and so that's good.
[1:26:24] That's coming up.
[1:26:25] So any questions I know I kind
of went quickly through that.
[1:26:28] But how easy is it to
recognize some of this
[1:26:34] as an officer looking
out, of course,
[1:26:36] you're not going to know if
they've souped it up unless.
[1:26:38] Yeah so the ones
without the pedals,
[1:26:41] that's the dead giveaway.
[1:26:42] Like it's just it's
probably not there.
[1:26:44] Well, and then there
should be a lot of them
[1:26:46] should have plates that have
either information on the motor
[1:26:50] size, things like that.
[1:26:51] Our bike guys are
getting very good at
[1:26:53] of peeling back the layers to
check and see if these things
[1:26:57] are legal or not.
[1:26:58] So some of the ones
that they're modifying,
[1:27:03] a lot of the frustration
from the parents
[1:27:04] is they're bringing these
things into the bike shop.
[1:27:06] So when they break,
because they don't last
[1:27:08] very long because they're
delivered by Amazon
[1:27:10] and that the bike
shops here won't work
[1:27:13] on them because they just can't
they won't say they won't do it.
[1:27:16] So they're trying
to steer the parents
[1:27:19] towards those reputable
shops so buy something
[1:27:21] that at least should work.
[1:27:24] OK Other questions.
[1:27:29] Come out to the
meeting tomorrow night.
[1:27:30] Thank you.
[1:27:30] Tell everyone about it.
[1:27:31] Thanks Thank you guys.
[1:27:32] Thank you.
[1:27:32] 
[1:27:46] Thank you, bring up.
[1:27:50] Thank you.
[1:27:51] I have no comments this evening.
[1:27:53] And we will come into the room.
[1:27:58] Kelvin, do you have anything.
[1:28:00] Just want to say that our book
bag giveaway council member book
[1:28:05] bag giveaway was a success.
[1:28:07] We donated book bags for four
seasons for kids in the area.
[1:28:12] We'll do it again next year.
[1:28:13] Hopefully so thank you.
[1:28:16] OK, Susan, two
things I'll be quick.
[1:28:21] First, I did want to make
a quick announcement.
[1:28:24] The green lizard foundation
name of the race next year.
[1:28:32] They're targeting April
17 or 24th of next year.
[1:28:37] So chief get your team ready.
[1:28:39] We're going to represent Herndon
proud with the law enforcement.
[1:28:42] Yes So it's April 17 or 24th
since we have people listening
[1:28:48] or watching the stream.
[1:28:49] Can you explain
what you're talking.
[1:28:51] Sure, sure.
[1:28:51] Yeah my apologies.
[1:28:53] So the town set
aside a grant fund.
[1:28:58] One of the requests came from
the green lizard foundation
[1:29:01] to support a town what's
called a criterium.
[1:29:06] It's a race within the town.
[1:29:08] Laps so if you figure
10 heats, 10 laps
[1:29:13] and it's a national
thing, it'll be regional.
[1:29:15] There'll be
professionals, amateurs.
[1:29:18] It's a serious race event.
[1:29:20] Serious revenue
driver for the town.
[1:29:22] And I do want to thank
the council, the staff
[1:29:26] and the police for
finally getting aligned
[1:29:28] and getting this thing happen.
[1:29:29] So April 17, 24th
next year and they are
[1:29:33] interviewing race directors.
[1:29:35] So this is going to
really put us on the map.
[1:29:38] The other thing is I wanted to
be mindful of our discussion
[1:29:42] in the closed meeting.
[1:29:45] I'll ask that we
give these back.
[1:29:48] But I wanted to share with you
all one of the requests that
[1:29:53] has come from residents
regarding the Herndon Park
[1:29:57] Station collection request.
[1:30:00] I apologize for how I take these
because it printed out weird.
[1:30:03] So all you got to do
is flip up on that.
[1:30:05] So it's a very
nice presentation.
[1:30:09] So bottom line here
and my ask here
[1:30:11] is really to can we discuss
this further in a future work
[1:30:15] session with staff input.
[1:30:17] Just because I think we want to
come up with a solution here.
[1:30:22] So just a little background.
[1:30:24] There is a situation
where historically
[1:30:29] the trash bins
had been collected
[1:30:33] by our disposal trucks.
[1:30:36] Recently that was changed.
[1:30:39] And I've documented from
the residents, the impact
[1:30:43] that they're
grappling with today.
[1:30:45] So if you look at page, I think
it's labeled number three.
[1:30:51] There's some requests
there in terms of what
[1:30:55] a potential solution could be.
[1:30:57] And we still collect just
in a different location.
[1:30:59] And so that's the next
slide is page four.
[1:31:03] So if you look at
page 4 you look
[1:31:06] at how it's moved from
the private drive alley
[1:31:10] into the street collection area.
[1:31:14] There's some pictures there.
[1:31:15] There's some documented concerns
there that they voiced in terms
[1:31:19] of how that's being
managed, not managed,
[1:31:22] but how it's contributing to
traffic flow on Park there.
[1:31:27] So there are a couple different
concerns that neighbors have
[1:31:31] voiced their documented here.
[1:31:34] That's why I wanted to
make sure we get with staff
[1:31:38] at a future work
session, to capture
[1:31:40] some of these other concerns.
[1:31:42] In terms of some of the
historical components,
[1:31:48] it's been this way
for a long time.
[1:31:50] The concern is, can they get
it back to the way it was.
[1:31:55] So that's something we
should discuss and have
[1:31:57] a future discussion on.
[1:31:59] The last thing I want to
go through here just being
[1:32:01] mindful of what was discussed
in the closed session,
[1:32:05] is there are some
options that I think
[1:32:09] are worth pursuing,
considering that would
[1:32:13] improve the quality of life.
[1:32:16] And I go back to our
strategic focus on this.
[1:32:19] We talked earlier.
[1:32:20] This is under good
governance, right.
[1:32:23] It's about providing a
solution, a community
[1:32:27] centered service to a concern
that the residents would have.
[1:32:32] So I think it aligns well
with our strategic plan.
[1:32:37] Again, we're going to
need more data to verify
[1:32:39] and validate with staff.
[1:32:41] Some of those things.
[1:32:43] So again, my request is I
know I can't necessarily
[1:32:47] leave you all with this, but.
[1:32:49] 
[1:32:52] Try to digest it.
[1:32:54] And I look forward to having
that future discussion
[1:32:56] with staff on this topic at
some future work session.
[1:33:00] So this is just
to bring everyone
[1:33:01] up to date on what was
discussed in the closed session.
[1:33:05] So, well, not what we
discussed in a closed session.
[1:33:10] A concern, a concern to
talk about that I wouldn't
[1:33:14] go into the details of this.
[1:33:17] So that was my commitment to it.
[1:33:18] But I did want to
get this on the books
[1:33:20] to make that request to have
that future work session.
[1:33:27] Those are the things that
I wanted to come up with.
[1:33:30] And again, April 17,
the Herndon bike race.
[1:33:36] Thank you.
[1:33:38] OK no comments, Mr. mayor.
[1:33:43] For me, so we did receive
speaking of inputs
[1:33:49] from community about some
of our locations and grass
[1:33:56] and other kinds of things.
[1:33:57] I also have been seeing and
I'm sure it's on the list,
[1:34:01] but one of our signs on Alden
street by Fairfax County
[1:34:06] on that side, someone must have
hit it because it's really,
[1:34:10] broken up.
[1:34:11] Do we have especially
on the sign
[1:34:13] like is what's the timing
those pillar sign things.
[1:34:18] Oh, anytime.
[1:34:20] Traffic signs knocked down.
[1:34:22] Like, is it a traffic.
[1:34:23] No it's that pseudo
brick entryway
[1:34:26] that says welcome to Herndon.
[1:34:27] And it's like, completely
askew and everything.
[1:34:30] I'll have staff
look at that one.
[1:34:31] And then are we
doing like I didn't
[1:34:35] necessarily see the other kinds
of tall grasses or whatever.
[1:34:40] Maybe it's at a few
other locations.
[1:34:42] This is the heavy mowing season.
[1:34:45] So we get to all of
those in a sequence.
[1:34:48] If there are specific locations,
we'll take a look at it,
[1:34:51] and we'll look
into that as well.
[1:34:53] All right.
[1:34:53] Thank you.
[1:34:55] And if you don't mind,
Mr. town manager,
[1:34:57] I'd like to ask Madam
town attorney if she
[1:35:01] has an update on
parcel h, otherwise
[1:35:05] known as Comstock development.
[1:35:07] Sure I'm sure many of you
all, and folks at home
[1:35:13] are aware that the town filed
litigation against Comstock
[1:35:16] last year in the
Circuit Court of Fairfax
[1:35:20] County seeking return of the
Downtown real estate known
[1:35:24] as parcel h.
[1:35:27] The town's been waiting on a
decision from Fairfax County
[1:35:30] Circuit Court on the town's
motion for summary judgment,
[1:35:35] seeking a resolution
to the matter
[1:35:39] without having to go to trial.
[1:35:43] Also, at the same
time, there was
[1:35:45] a trial set for September 14.
[1:35:50] Coming up next week.
[1:35:52] Late last week we
were contacted.
[1:35:54] The attorneys were contacted
by the Circuit Court judge
[1:35:57] for Fairfax County, who
advised that she was going
[1:36:01] to be entering an order
that would remove the trial
[1:36:08] date of September 14
because she would be issuing
[1:36:11] her opinion, her decision on
the town's motion for summary
[1:36:16] judgment very shortly.
[1:36:18] And that would alleviate the
need for a trial in the matter.
[1:36:22] So there is no trial
pending for September 14.
[1:36:27] We're expecting a decision
from the judge very imminently.
[1:36:32] Any decision from
the judge, however,
[1:36:35] will be subject to appeal.
[1:36:37] And we will certainly
let everyone know when
[1:36:40] that decision comes through.
[1:36:43] Thank you Mr. town
manager, do you want
[1:36:46] to close us out with comments.
[1:36:48] I'll just say shout out
to my Public Works police,
[1:36:56] both first responders
of the storms.
[1:36:58] The past weekend.
[1:36:58] We had a lot of trees down
intersections, a lot of folks
[1:37:04] having to stand out
in the rain to make
[1:37:05] sure our intersections
were safe,
[1:37:07] crews coming in, getting
called in to clear trees.
[1:37:10] Big effort.
[1:37:11] And I also want to
include in this shout
[1:37:13] out the IT department, because
the storm and the power outages
[1:37:17] knocked out our entire network.
[1:37:18] So IT department had a
lot of folks coming in
[1:37:21] over the weekend, this past
weekend, on a holiday weekend
[1:37:23] to make sure that our
systems were up and running.
[1:37:25] Today when we got to the
office after the weekend.
[1:37:29] So thanks to town staff.
[1:37:31] Great thank you.
[1:37:34] So we do need to go
into a closed meeting.
[1:37:38] Is there a motion to go into
closed meeting under the code
[1:37:40] of Virginia, pursuant to
the following a closed
[1:37:42] meeting pursuant to the code of
Virginia, Section 2.2 3711 A1.
[1:37:47] For discussion of
prospective candidates
[1:37:49] relative to appointments
to boards and commissions.
[1:37:53] So moved.
[1:37:53] Second OK, I heard you
first for the motion,
[1:37:57] and I'll take yours second.
[1:38:00] OK I will ask the
clerk to call the roll.
[1:38:03] Council Member.
[1:38:04] Yes council member.
[1:38:05] Garcia yes.
[1:38:06] Council Member.
[1:38:07] Lloyd Lloyd.
[1:38:09] Yes council member.
[1:38:10] Reyes yes.
[1:38:11] Mayor LeBlanc.
[1:38:12] And that LeBlanc is a yes.
[1:38:14] So that carries 5 and
0 with two absent.
[1:38:17] And it is 9:11 PM
I. Let's start again
[1:38:21] at 9:15 to allow us to adjust.
[1:38:25]