[0:00] from line and members of the public who
[0:02] are here, just so you're aware that that
[0:05] we're going to do some training on
[0:06] property tax in general so that you
[0:09] understand how property taxes in Utah
[0:11] work.
[0:12] Um and then we'll talk about truth in
[0:14] taxation and what truth in taxation is a really transparent process that our
[0:20] local governments, regardless if it's
[0:21] county, city, school district, special
[0:24] district, they need to go through this
[0:26] process if they want to increase
[0:28] property tax revenue over what they
[0:31] received uh last year. And that's always
[0:33] the baseline is what they received last
[0:35] year.
[0:36] If they want more than that, they need
[0:38] to go through a process called truth in
[0:40] taxation. Actually, uh this training
[0:43] this evening is one of the recommended
[0:45] practices that you'll see in the
[0:47] training that we recommend that in May
[0:50] you have this kind of a town hall
[0:52] meeting. And then I also want to uh
[0:55] congratulate the city. When we walked
[0:57] in, we saw your property tax impact
[0:59] schedule that you have copies of it
[1:01] here. Uh this is a new requirement to
[1:04] have that schedule available in May and
[1:07] at the meetings where you discuss the
[1:09] budget. And so congratulations. Um we
[1:12] just learned from the tax commission
[1:14] last Thursday when I presented with them
[1:17] that they want copies of it, physical
[1:20] copies at the meetings. And so you were
[1:22] ahead of that curve. We tried to get
[1:24] that information out to all of our
[1:26] cities and towns as soon as we heard the
[1:28] tax commission answer the question that
[1:30] way. So without further ado, I'm going
[1:33] to jump into the the training. Um so and
[1:36] some of you I know have seen it and
[1:38] hopefully repetition helps. Um I will
[1:41] give the acknowledgement right now. This
[1:43] is a very horrible slide deck. It breaks
[1:46] every slide deck rule. It has a lot of
[1:49] words on slides and that's because this
[1:51] process is so detailed. We wanted to
[1:54] make sure that that had the information
[1:56] they need as we use it for a training
[1:58] guide for our local officials as they go
[2:00] through the process.
[2:02] So, let's start out just by talking
[2:04] about Scofield and Salt Lake City.
[2:07] Pretty different communities, right?
[2:09] When you look at their budgets, their
[2:11] budgets are very different. When you
[2:13] look at their population, population's
[2:16] very different. Hopefully you sit
[2:18] somewhere in between those two extremes,
[2:20] right? From population of 25 up to
[2:23] 217,000.
[2:25] You can see uh the total amount that
[2:27] they bring in in property tax revenue,
[2:30] and you can see how how dependent they
[2:33] are within their general fund uh on
[2:36] property taxes. Salt Lake City is a
[2:38] little bit more dependent than than
[2:41] um Scofield, but Scofield is about the
[2:43] average. Our cities and towns across the
[2:46] state of Utah are about 14% dependent on
[2:49] property tax. Do you know what your
[2:51] dependency is on property tax here in
[2:53] Heber by chance? Okay. I should have run
[2:55] that number for you, but I didn't.
[2:57] As different as these two communities
[2:59] are, there's one thing they have in
[3:01] common.
[3:02] It's called truth in taxation. So,
[3:05] regardless of the size of the community,
[3:07] everybody has to go through the same
[3:09] process, the process that we're going to
[3:11] talk about this evening. There is one
[3:14] very small carve out. For communities
[3:16] that do not have a website, you have a
[3:18] website, correct? So, we're not going to
[3:20] talk about the carve out because it's
[3:22] only for communities that don't have a
[3:24] website, and that's some of our very
[3:26] smallest. Scofield, by the way, has a
[3:28] website, so it doesn't even apply to
[3:30] them, the carve out.
[3:32] So, first thing to remember about
[3:34] property taxes in Utah is they are
[3:37] revenue driven. The rates you might be
[3:39] familiar with property taxes in other
[3:41] states, it works differently in Utah.
[3:44] It's revenue driven. The rate is
[3:46] calculated based on the amount of
[3:48] revenue that the government receives.
[3:52] And valuation increases uh and decreases
[3:55] do not result in higher taxes.
[3:58] Does anyone want to argue that point
[4:00] with me? I usually have somebody who
[4:02] wants to.
[4:04] Okay? It might in other places. A
[4:06] valuation increase might mean you pay
[4:09] higher taxes in other places. It does
[4:12] not in Utah. But, valuation increases
[4:16] and decreases can shift the tax burden.
[4:19] And we're going to talk about that
[4:20] tonight. So, if your valuation goes up,
[4:23] council member, and mayor's yours goes
[4:25] down, the city will get the same amount
[4:28] of revenue, but council member, you will
[4:31] pay a bigger piece of that pie. And the
[4:33] mayor would pay a smaller piece of that
[4:34] pie based on those valuation changes.
[4:37] So, the government didn't raise the
[4:39] taxes, but the valuation changes caused a burden shift. [snorts]
[4:45] Does that make sense? And that's how
[4:47] taxes work in Utah.
[4:49] So, the reason that's important is
[4:52] because if you have a large taxpayer or
[4:55] a commercial property taxpayer, and they
[4:58] might protest their value, and their
[5:00] value goes down, guess what? Everybody
[5:03] else pays a little bit more because
[5:06] their valuation went down because it
[5:09] works the same between homeowners as it
[5:11] works between different classifications
[5:13] of property.
[5:15] So, the other thing to remember about
[5:17] property tax in Utah is the way the
[5:19] system works, there's a natural downward
[5:21] bias. And that's because by design,
[5:24] inflation is removed from the
[5:26] rate-setting process. Government does
[5:29] not get an automatic bump every year to
[5:32] make up for inflation. So, the city has
[5:35] inflationary pressure, just like we have
[5:38] as as community citizens and residents
[5:41] in the community. When inflation goes
[5:43] up, we have to figure out how to pay for
[5:45] it. The same is true for the city, but
[5:48] their property tax does not adjust. Some
[5:51] of their own taxes do adjust. Sales tax,
[5:54] when it when people are buying more,
[5:56] they may get more money in sales tax.
[5:59] But property tax, the way the set the
[6:01] rate-setting process works, inflation is
[6:04] completely removed from the calculation.
[6:08] So, the city does not receive more
[6:10] property tax revenue just because of
[6:12] inflation.
[6:14] However, primary residential properties
[6:17] do not pay based on 100% of value. They
[6:20] are the only properties that don't pay
[6:23] based on 100% of value. Every other
[6:25] classification of property pays based on
[6:28] 100% of their market value. Primary
[6:32] residences get a 45% break, and then the
[6:36] rate is applied to 55% of the value of
[6:39] the primary residence.
[6:42] This used to say "None of these facts
[6:44] are likely to change." It now says
[6:47] "Most." And that's because during the
[6:49] last legislative session, the
[6:51] legislature actually discussed
[6:53] increasing that primary residential tax
[6:56] break.
[6:57] They They ultimately did not pass the
[6:59] bill, but we expect it to come back next
[7:02] year. We think there's pressure to get a
[7:05] higher break for our residential
[7:06] properties. And part of that is because
[7:09] if you look at the data across the state
[7:11] of Utah, the the burden has been
[7:13] shifting. It's been shifting away from
[7:16] commercial and other properties to
[7:18] residential properties.
[7:20] Um and so, as that happens, the part of
[7:24] the response that the legislature is
[7:25] thinking to help homeowners is to
[7:28] increase the amount that doesn't get
[7:31] taxed for homeowners, and then that
[7:33] would shift some of that burden back to
[7:35] other types of properties within the
[7:37] community.
[7:40] One of the things that we challenge
[7:42] local officials is to work to understand
[7:44] this process because you need to be
[7:47] able, as you know, to explain it to the
[7:49] residents in your community, especially
[7:51] when you're going through truth and
[7:52] taxation. And so, I'm glad that I'm here
[7:55] tonight to be able to help you with part
[7:57] of that process.
[7:59] And then, finally, I like to always end
[8:01] with noting that despite all of these
[8:04] challenges of property tax, it still is
[8:09] the most stable source of revenue for
[8:11] our cities and towns. It is the one tax
[8:14] There isn't inflation built into it, but
[8:17] deflation doesn't mean that they get
[8:19] less money. So, when values fall, rates
[8:22] go up so that they get the same amount
[8:25] of money. And especially when you're
[8:27] talking about things like public safety,
[8:29] and I saw on your property tax impact
[8:31] schedule that the reason you're going
[8:33] through truth and taxation is to help
[8:35] with the public safety bill that you
[8:37] have, especially with those kinds of
[8:40] expenses, you cannot pull back on those
[8:43] just because the economy might have
[8:44] sputtered.
[8:46] Um In fact, often times, during an
[8:49] economic sputter is when you want to
[8:51] keep your your public safety uh services
[8:54] kind of solid. And so, that's why, as I
[8:57] work with cities and towns across the
[8:59] state of Utah, I like to help elected
[9:02] officials start to close the gap between
[9:05] public safety expenditures and property
[9:08] tax revenue. If we look back to 2006,
[9:12] kind of when I started doing this kind
[9:13] of work, there was a very small gap
[9:16] between the revenue that we would bring
[9:18] in in property tax and our public safety
[9:20] expenditures. But then, we kind of went
[9:22] on this um
[9:24] feast of sales tax, and that gap widened
[9:27] because we didn't It's been 13 years
[9:30] since you've increased property taxes in
[9:32] your community. That's a lot of
[9:34] inflation eating away at your property
[9:37] tax revenue. And so, a lot of
[9:39] communities are starting to rethink
[9:41] their approach to property tax. To
[9:43] think, you know, should we go through
[9:45] truth and taxation more often and try to
[9:47] catch up with inflation a little bit
[9:49] more often. And if you do that, you'll
[9:52] start to narrow that gap between your
[9:54] public safety expenditures and your
[9:56] property tax revenue.
[9:59] So, if elected officials in your city or
[10:01] town, as as the officials here in Hooper
[10:04] do, want more property tax revenue,
[10:07] there are only three ways to get it.
[10:09] First way is new growth, and we're going
[10:11] to talk about the impacts of new growth.
[10:15] Um
[10:16] This is how the formula works. You can
[10:18] see the baseline property tax there, and
[10:21] we take the uh property values, the
[10:25] personal property, and then what we call
[10:27] centrally assessed property. Those three
[10:29] values get added together, and a rate is
[10:32] devised that gives you the amount of
[10:35] money you budgeted last year.
[10:38] And then, we go in and we look at new
[10:41] growth. That is real new brick and
[10:44] mortar. That is not inflationary growth.
[10:46] It's real new structures in your
[10:48] community. And we apply the rate that
[10:51] you have last year
[10:53] to that new growth. So, then that bumps
[10:56] up your new baseline.
[10:58] And so, you'll then start next budget
[11:01] year at a new amount of money that you
[11:04] received. So, that's one way to get the
[11:07] additional property tax revenue. If
[11:09] you're in a high-growth community,
[11:11] um you you may often get, you know, a
[11:13] pretty good number coming in in new
[11:16] growth. But, the catch is, when you have
[11:19] that new growth, you also have to
[11:22] provide services to those residences or
[11:25] businesses. And so, your expenses go up
[11:28] as well. It's not that you just get this
[11:30] revenue, and it's windfall revenue. You
[11:32] have an impact on your expenditure side
[11:35] as well. But, that's how new growth
[11:37] works. That's one way that cities and
[11:40] towns or school districts or special
[11:43] districts or counties can get additional
[11:45] property tax revenue without going
[11:48] through this truth and taxation process.
[11:51] You don't need to go through truth and
[11:52] taxation to get your new growth.
[11:55] There were some changes to the way new
[11:57] growth is calculated in our last
[11:59] legislative session. Specifically, it
[12:02] used to be that if you added a carport
[12:05] or you put on a new deck or you
[12:07] remodeled your kitchen, your it it that
[12:10] would bump it up and we would count that
[12:13] as new growth. The legislature has
[12:15] expressly taken all of that out of the
[12:18] new growth calculation now. It has to be
[12:22] new inhabitable
[12:24] brick and mortar. So, that means
[12:27] somebody adding a garage, even though
[12:30] it's new, it's brick and mortar, it's
[12:32] square footage, it doesn't meet the test
[12:35] of inhabitable.
[12:36] And so, it wouldn't count as new growth.
[12:39] And so, really the legislature's driving
[12:41] the new growth component to be new
[12:44] homes, new businesses, real new things
[12:48] in the community. Question.
[12:50] Would uh our accessory dwelling units
[12:52] considered new growth? You know, that was a question that was asked last
[12:56] week with the tax commission. And yes,
[12:59] if the new garage has an accessory
[13:01] dwelling unit, that could be partially
[13:04] new growth. The the garage wouldn't be,
[13:07] but the accessory dwelling unit on top
[13:10] of the garage potentially could be.
[13:14] Okay.
[13:15] So, that's one way to get more property
[13:16] tax revenue, new growth. The next way,
[13:19] annex new areas. So, if you annex in
[13:22] land, you get to apply your tax rates to
[13:25] the land and then you get new tax
[13:27] revenue. But, just like new growth, that
[13:31] usually means your expenses go up as
[13:33] well because there are more properties
[13:35] that you now have to provide services
[13:37] to.
[13:38] So, the third and only other way to get
[13:42] more property tax revenue is to go
[13:44] through this truth in taxation process,
[13:47] and to say, "We need more revenue than
[13:50] what we had last year, and so we're
[13:52] going to be very transparent, and we're
[13:55] going to talk to the public." And the
[13:57] change to the law is that we always
[14:00] talked about this in a hearing in
[14:02] August. And what the legislature has
[14:05] asked is, "Please, let's move that
[14:08] forward to May when you're when you're
[14:11] starting your budget discussions, and
[14:13] let's be very very explicit about the
[14:16] fact that we're requesting new property
[14:18] tax revenue." And so, that's why we're
[14:20] here tonight because you started through
[14:22] that process with your tentative budget
[14:24] last last week, right? With your
[14:26] tentative budget.
[14:28] So, the way the truth in taxation
[14:30] process works,
[14:31] um is that we we go through it because
[14:34] as I said, we've got that baseline of
[14:36] revenue, rates go up or or values go up,
[14:40] rates go down.
[14:42] Values go down, rates go up, but we get
[14:45] that baseline of revenue. If we want
[14:47] more revenue than that, we go through
[14:49] this process, this truth in taxation.
[14:53] So, let's talk a little bit about how
[14:55] the property taxes work so that you can
[14:57] see it. This is a very simple, very
[15:00] simple, um demonstration, but I think it
[15:03] drives home the point. We don't have
[15:05] commercial properties in here because
[15:08] most of us care the most about our home,
[15:10] and and our home's value and how taxes
[15:13] are applied. So, this is just homes, but the concept works the same.
[15:18] So, here we have homes. Um I know
[15:21] everyone wants to know where that home
[15:23] is that they can buy for $181,000
[15:26] because it quite frankly no longer
[15:28] exists in Utah.
[15:30] Um, but for our example, we're going to
[15:32] work with that because it it makes the
[15:33] example easy.
[15:36] The taxable value is not the market
[15:38] value. Remember, it's 55% of market
[15:41] value. So, the taxable value is
[15:43] $100,000.
[15:45] And the taxes that each homeowner pays,
[15:47] because look how lovely, every home is
[15:50] valued exactly the same in this
[15:52] community.
[15:53] Um, and every homeowner pays $1,000 on
[15:56] their tax bill.
[15:58] So, as a community, we have a $1.8
[16:00] million
[16:01] base taxable or market value. We have a
[16:05] $1 million taxable value once we take
[16:08] that residential exemption off.
[16:11] Uh, we need a 1% rate. This is much
[16:14] higher than what anyone's rates are, but
[16:16] it's the rate that we use to help make
[16:18] it easy to talk about. And that produces
[16:21] $10,000 for the community.
[16:24] Okay, that's in year one. Year two.
[16:27] Look at this. Everyone's value went up
[16:29] by the same.
[16:30] We know that doesn't happen, but but
[16:32] just go with me on this so that you can
[16:34] see in the example. Everyone's value
[16:37] went up the same. Our total value of the
[16:40] community increased 3.6 million. Homes
[16:44] now have a tax value of 200,000.
[16:49] We have a $2 million total tax value.
[16:53] And our rate went down.
[16:55] Now, some elected officials will try to
[16:58] say, as they're running for election,
[17:01] "I lowered your taxes. Last year, your
[17:03] rate was 1%. This year, your rate is
[17:06] 0.5%."
[17:08] And I say, "You can't say that."
[17:11] Everyone paid still the same $1,000
[17:14] each. You got your same $10,000.
[17:18] The rate is revenue driven. We needed a
[17:21] 0.5% rate to produce the same amount of
[17:24] revenue. You cannot talk about lowering
[17:27] taxes because you lowered the rate.
[17:30] That's why I don't like these
[17:31] discussions of rates.
[17:33] So, let's go to year three.
[17:35] This is a little more realistic. Homes
[17:38] kind of changed all over the place. Uh
[17:40] the the value changes weren't the same.
[17:42] Some went up, some went down from year
[17:45] two. We now have a $2.2 million market
[17:49] value for our community.
[17:51] We have homes that have different values
[17:55] uh that the rate will be applied to.
[17:57] We get our same $10,000 as the
[18:00] government because that's our baseline.
[18:02] We get 10,000.
[18:04] There's our taxable value, and look what
[18:07] happened to our rate.
[18:09] Now, someone who runs against somebody
[18:11] for office will say, "They raised taxes.
[18:15] Last year it was 0.5. This year it's
[18:18] 0.82. They raised taxes." And they are
[18:21] right to say, "No, we did not. We got
[18:23] the same $10,000 that we got in the
[18:26] previous year."
[18:28] But, let me tell you, when I take phone
[18:30] calls, I've taken many of these phone
[18:32] calls over my career from homeowner 10,
[18:35] does homeowner 10 believe that they did
[18:38] not raise taxes?
[18:40] They're paying more. They paid a
[18:42] thousand last year. Now they're paying
[18:45] 1,184.
[18:47] And what we have to explain to them is,
[18:50] "We did not raise taxes. We got the same
[18:53] amount of money, but because your value
[18:56] went up and others went down, you are
[18:59] paying a larger proportional share.
[19:02] Other homeowners are paying a little bit
[19:04] less, and you're paying a little bit
[19:06] more. It's not their fault. It's That's
[19:10] how property taxes work in the state of
[19:12] Utah. That's the system that we all live
[19:15] with.
[19:17] Now, let's go to year four. We didn't
[19:19] change anything from any of our other 10
[19:22] homes. That, you know, we kind of the
[19:24] economy leveled out, everything stayed
[19:26] steady.
[19:28] We had our same market value, but look
[19:31] what happened. We had a new house that
[19:34] was built in the community.
[19:36] It has now its taxable value. We get to
[19:40] apply our 0.82 rate. We get to bring in
[19:44] another 150,000 of taxable value.
[19:47] We get to apply that rate, and look what
[19:50] happens to our baseline for next year.
[19:53] We get an additional $1,224.
[19:56] We also have an additional home to
[19:58] serve, but the following year our
[20:01] baseline now starts at 11,124
[20:06] instead of instead of the 10,000 that we
[20:09] had.
[20:10] That's just how it works in Utah.
[20:12] Like it, hate it, you know, whatever.
[20:15] It's not these elected officials who set
[20:18] those rules. You just live within the
[20:20] system
[20:21] of these rules of how we do property tax
[20:24] rate setting in Utah.
[20:27] I don't like communities to compare
[20:29] rates to each other. And this I pulled
[20:31] this together for a training that I did
[20:33] down in Wayne County, but I thought it
[20:35] was really illustrative of why it
[20:38] doesn't make a lot of sense to compare
[20:40] your rate to the next community's rate.
[20:42] So, in this example, Bicknell has the
[20:45] lowest rate.
[20:46] But they don't have the lowest revenue,
[20:49] nor are they least dependent on property
[20:51] tax from any of the other communities in
[20:53] the example. The least dependent is
[20:56] Lyman, who has a larger rate than
[20:59] Bicknell does, but they are less than 1%
[21:01] dependent on property tax in their
[21:03] community.
[21:05] Um then you look at Lyman Croghan. The
[21:08] rate is almost identical on those two
[21:10] communities, but the revenue is not. And
[21:14] it's because the rate is multiplied by
[21:16] their taxable value. So, what you know
[21:19] from looking at these numbers is that
[21:22] Croghan has a higher taxable value than Lyman has in their community
[21:28] because of the revenue that's generated
[21:30] from nearly the same rate.
[21:33] I wanted to point out Salina. Salina
[21:35] made a policy decision a few years ago
[21:39] that they wanted to do more frequent uh
[21:42] property tax increases so that they
[21:45] would become more dependent on property
[21:47] tax as a total mix within their budget
[21:50] because they recognized that it is the
[21:52] most stable part of revenue for local
[21:55] government. And so, they set out on on a
[21:57] policy goal of doing more frequent,
[22:01] smaller increases to try to increase the
[22:04] amount of revenue that they bring in.
[22:06] And they are now exceeding the statewide
[22:09] average where I told you before we're
[22:11] around 14%
[22:13] on average within general funds
[22:15] dependent on property tax. Salina is
[22:17] around 20% now, and I love that because
[22:21] as an old budget policy geek, I like to
[22:24] be able to see, "Oh, you made a policy
[22:26] decision." And I can start to see the
[22:28] policy decision reflected in the numbers
[22:30] now.
[22:31] And then the same with Wayne County.
[22:33] does a property tax
[22:35] increase that's equal to the CPI every
[22:38] year. They just say they got their
[22:41] property tax to where they wanted it to
[22:42] be, and they said, "We don't want to let
[22:44] inflation erode it again. And so, we're
[22:47] going to go through truth and taxation
[22:49] in Wayne County every year so that we
[22:53] stay even. We want it to be almost a
[22:55] third of our budget." And that's where
[22:57] they are now in Wayne County. Again, you
[23:00] can see the policy decision in action
[23:02] here.
[23:04] Another really quick slide. This is I
[23:06] just recently did some training in
[23:08] Helper, Utah. So, I pulled the Carbon
[23:11] County slide so that you can see it's
[23:13] not just a Wayne County
[23:15] issue.
[23:16] You know, you can see the different
[23:18] rates, the different revenue, and and it
[23:20] just I hope drives home don't don't
[23:23] compare your rate to another community's
[23:26] rate and say that's what our rate should
[23:28] be because community X has that kind of
[23:31] a rate.
[23:33] So, back to our budget process and truth
[23:36] in taxation. Normally, when you go
[23:38] through your budget process, it lasts,
[23:41] you know, you you turn in your tentative
[23:43] budget at the first meeting in May. Your
[23:45] budget will needs to be adopted by June
[23:48] 30th. So, between May and June, that's
[23:51] the bulk of your budget process. When
[23:53] you go through truth in taxation, you're
[23:55] going to be busy all summer. There are
[23:57] things you need to do because you will
[23:59] not adopt your final budget until
[24:01] August. Um and we're going to talk
[24:04] through in excruciating detail
[24:06] um the way the process works out.
[24:09] So, I want to show you the differences
[24:11] between a regular budget process and a
[24:14] truth in taxation budget process. And
[24:16] this is the ugliest slide of the deck.
[24:19] I'll just give you a warning now.
[24:21] So, this is what a normal budget process
[24:23] looks like.
[24:25] Um I always train that kind of January
[24:27] to April, I want you to be talking about
[24:29] your big budget policy issues as you
[24:31] start to narrow in on your tentative
[24:34] budget and what you're going to need for
[24:36] the coming year. And then in May, the
[24:38] tentative budget uh becomes available to
[24:40] the public. In May and June, you provide
[24:43] notice of a public hearing on that
[24:45] tentative budget. And then before June
[24:48] 22nd,
[24:50] um you go ahead and well, you have your
[24:51] hearing in June. Before June 22nd, you
[24:54] adopt your certified tax rate.
[24:57] Um and then by June 30th, you adopt your
[24:59] final budget and you're done. You file
[25:01] it and and you move on to the next year.
[25:04] When I put this next piece up,
[25:06] everything in the dark blue is the
[25:09] regular budget process. Everything in
[25:11] green is what used to be truth in
[25:14] taxation and still is. And then
[25:17] everything kind of in the aqua, the
[25:18] light blue, is new for this year. And
[25:22] they're the new requirements that you're
[25:23] grappling with.
[25:26] Here it comes.
[25:28] So that's the new process to go through
[25:31] truth in taxation this year. And you'll
[25:33] notice that most of the light blue is
[25:36] loaded into May because that's where we
[25:39] wanted to fast forward all of that
[25:41] transparency. And so that's where a lot
[25:43] of those requirements are and you've
[25:45] already crossed your first hurdle,
[25:47] right? That with that transmittal of the
[25:49] tentative budget, you've got your
[25:51] schedule, your property tax impact
[25:53] schedule. I think I saw on your agenda
[25:56] that your budget officer made it very
[25:58] clear you had an intention of a
[26:00] statement and you made a statement that
[26:02] you were going to increase property
[26:04] taxes. And did you do your
[26:07] Did I see you did your May 1st to June
[26:09] 13th statement last week as well? So
[26:12] that second statement. So So the law
[26:15] changed and there are two statements and
[26:17] a schedule that need to happen and we're
[26:20] recommending that they happen at that
[26:22] first meeting cuz it's just totally
[26:24] completely transparent and that's what I saw that you all did.
[26:29] We're going to talk through this process
[26:31] in pretty good detail now.
[26:33] But that But just as we go through it,
[26:35] those are your new changes for this
[26:37] coming year.
[26:39] So one of the things that we want to
[26:41] remember is the legislature, by
[26:44] designing the process the way they have
[26:46] now, they recognize how transparent we
[26:49] are as local governments. We do a pretty
[26:51] good job of being transparent with what
[26:53] we're doing. They want us to be even
[26:56] more transparent when we're talking
[26:58] about increasing property taxes. The
[27:00] reason being is many many people in the
[27:04] community don't really clue into the
[27:07] fact that there was a property tax
[27:09] increase until they receive the notice
[27:11] from the county auditor that comes out
[27:14] right around July 22nd. And that's when
[27:17] legislator phones go off the hook
[27:19] because the public's calling and saying,
[27:21] "I I didn't even know about this and now
[27:23] there's a hearing and I have no idea
[27:25] what's going on." And so, what we're
[27:28] doing this year and the new changes are
[27:30] in response to that to try to really get
[27:34] the public informed early and before you
[27:37] adopt your budget that there's a
[27:39] property tax increase involved. I think
[27:42] it's a really great opportunity
[27:45] for you to do what you're doing tonight
[27:47] and other meetings where you really
[27:49] educate the public about the amazing
[27:52] services that you provide and the
[27:55] relatively small cost that they pay for
[27:58] them. And so, I like what we're doing
[28:02] that we are talking in a in a more
[28:05] direct way about the cost of providing
[28:08] those services and how we all need to
[28:10] pitch in a little bit so that we can
[28:12] have these great communities across the
[28:14] state that we live in.
[28:17] So, this is a headline out of the
[28:19] newspaper when this law passed and it
[28:23] was all about bolstering transparency
[28:25] with city school districts and other
[28:27] entities that are going through this
[28:29] process.
[28:30] We're going to spend a lot of time
[28:31] tonight talking about the new
[28:33] requirements of House Bill 236 and then
[28:36] there are some requirements in Senate
[28:38] Bill 238. We won't spend as much time on
[28:40] the other two because they're not quite
[28:42] as applicable to what we're doing.
[28:45] The objectives of the new law were to
[28:47] bring the public into the process as
[28:50] early as possible and you did that last
[28:52] week. But, you know, your first meeting,
[28:54] your first kickoff meeting in the budget
[28:56] season, you brought them in.
[28:58] And then also to alleviate the public
[29:00] concern that by the time they get that
[29:03] late July notice and they hear about the
[29:05] August meeting, you're already four or
[29:08] six or eight weeks into your budget. And
[29:11] the public was concerned that when that
[29:13] happens, you're already spending the
[29:15] money.
[29:16] Um and you haven't even gone through the
[29:18] public hearing process to determine, you
[29:22] know, whether or not you're really going
[29:23] to raise property taxes. And so, we've
[29:26] talked a lot of times about how we can
[29:29] change the process and this transparency
[29:32] is the best way to change the process
[29:34] moving forward.
[29:36] Um and so, there are a couple of budget
[29:38] things that we'll talk about that you
[29:39] need to do when you adopt what we're now
[29:42] calling an interim budget in June.
[29:44] Uh to move forward.
[29:46] So, the new requirements, I'm going to
[29:48] just populate this slide really quickly
[29:51] because at the end of the day, these are
[29:54] the four things that we have to do is we
[29:56] have to have the public statement, which
[29:58] you did last week, that a property tax
[30:01] is included in your tentative budget.
[30:03] We need to have the property tax impact
[30:05] schedule as a separate item from all
[30:08] other budget documents and that's what
[30:10] you have on your back table today and I
[30:12] think you have it on your website as
[30:14] well. Is that right?
[30:16] Um you need another public statement and
[30:18] that's the one that I asked about that
[30:20] May 1st to June 13th. There are some
[30:23] reasons why that latitude was given in
[30:25] that period of time and it's so that if your tax increase did wasn't so large
[30:32] and maybe new growth could have taken
[30:34] care of it, they want to give
[30:36] communities time to see the new growth
[30:39] number. And the new growth number now
[30:42] has to come to you from your county
[30:44] auditor by June 13th. So, that's why
[30:46] they've given some time, but if you know
[30:48] you're moving forward with truth in
[30:50] taxation because you know from your
[30:53] building permits that new growth is not
[30:55] going to produce the revenue you need,
[30:58] then we think you're wise to go ahead
[31:00] and do that second statement last week
[31:01] like you did with your budget
[31:03] transmittal.
[31:05] And then, this is a really great change.
[31:07] Previously, when communities would go
[31:10] through truth in taxation, we had to
[31:12] have them tentatively adopt their final
[31:15] budget in June.
[31:17] And and it couldn't be a final adoption
[31:19] because that's not until after August
[31:21] and after the truth in taxation hearing,
[31:23] and it was very confusing to the public.
[31:25] Like, why are we tentatively adopting a
[31:27] final budget? But, we had to do that so
[31:30] that our local officials had spending
[31:32] authority for July 1. There had to be
[31:34] something in place.
[31:36] Now, we've introduced this definition of
[31:39] what we call an interim budget, and I
[31:41] love this. I love that we came up with
[31:44] this during this last session. The
[31:46] interim budget authorizes your spending
[31:49] on July 1 and serves as your placeholder
[31:52] budget until you adopt your final budget
[31:55] in August.
[31:57] In the interim budget, you're required
[31:59] to hold in a separate account. For you,
[32:02] it will be $128,000
[32:05] because that's the amount of revenue
[32:07] that you want in new property tax
[32:09] revenue. You will hold that in a
[32:11] separate account. It will not be
[32:14] appropriated. It will not be available
[32:16] to spend on July 1. You cannot release
[32:20] that money until after you finalize the
[32:23] process, and if you don't finalize the
[32:26] process, your final budget that gets
[32:28] adopted does not include that $128,000.
[32:31] Does that make sense? And and we thought
[32:33] that was a much better way, a much more
[32:36] transparent way to demonstrate to the
[32:39] public that our local officials are not
[32:42] spending money on July 1 that they have
[32:44] not been approved to have yet. Carrie,
[32:47] can I ask a question?
[32:48] >> Yes, please.
[32:48] >> So, up here when you're talking about
[32:50] the public statement, the second public
[32:52] statement
[32:52] >> Yes.
[32:53] >> what we're talking about the increase
[32:54] >> to be here. Sorry.
[32:57] It's karaoke night.
[32:59] Uh when we're asking about the purpose,
[33:01] how granular or specific does that need
[33:04] to be? So, in our case, we're asking for
[33:05] 128,000 to to help fund law enforcement.
[33:09] >> Yep.
[33:09] And we only end up spending a hundred of
[33:11] that, is there is there blowback on that
[33:13] extra 28,000 or can a city just announce
[33:16] say, "Look, this is for our potential
[33:18] shortfalls in the general fund."
[33:21] So, it's supposed to be at the
[33:23] appropriation level. And so, that's the
[33:25] department level.
[33:27] And I would not put I would not only
[33:31] spend a hundred thousand on public
[33:33] safety and then have 28 that's kind of
[33:35] flexible. Be really specific. If you
[33:38] need to add specificity to your property
[33:41] tax impact schedule to use the full 20
[33:44] 128, do that. Um
[33:47] you know, certainly it's a budget. You
[33:50] get to amend your budget just like you
[33:52] always do. None of your budget authority
[33:54] is eroded in this process.
[33:56] But, it will hurt all cities and towns
[33:59] if we see cities and towns out there not
[34:02] staying true to the to the property tax
[34:05] impact schedule. There's a reason we're
[34:07] developing these schedules and it's so
[34:09] that we can show the public, this is
[34:12] where we need the money in our budget.
[34:14] And if you need the money because you
[34:16] need to bolster your fund balance
[34:18] because you're falling below the fund
[34:19] balance requirement, say that. Say, we
[34:23] need it in our fund balance. Question.
[34:26] So, for this exact situation, this
[34:29] 128,000 is is just kind of a
[34:31] pass-through increase that comes from
[34:34] the police force for public safety.
[34:36] Um but it's on a determined amount of
[34:39] head count that the
[34:40] uh sheriff's department is is taking in
[34:43] addition. And so they were working
[34:45] through a process of getting approved
[34:47] the six head count. But I don't think
[34:48] there was a discussion between 10 and 6
[34:50] and they essentially tentatively landed
[34:52] on the six coming out.
[34:54] If they do more or if they do less is
[34:57] not really up to us. So what happens in
[34:59] that situation where like we are
[35:00] contracted to spend for the six head
[35:03] count of 128,000,
[35:05] but if they don't pass three of those
[35:07] guys through the academy and don't get
[35:09] all six ready, um you know, I doubt
[35:12] they're going to charge us for three
[35:13] that aren't existing. So what would
[35:14] happen in that scenario? Then you would
[35:16] just have a holdover till next year
[35:18] because they'd probably get the
[35:19] additional three, right? The idea would
[35:21] be you're funding what you're
[35:23] contractually obligated to fund. But
[35:26] you're asking a very good question.
[35:29] You can go lower
[35:32] anytime between now and August. You can
[35:36] lower the amount of revenue you need
[35:39] after June 22nd. Once you adopt that
[35:43] rate, it gets put into the valuation
[35:45] notices, you may not go higher.
[35:48] So from now until June 22nd, you could
[35:51] go up a little if you needed to. Tax
[35:54] Commission doesn't love it if you do
[35:55] that, but but we fought really hard to
[35:58] keep the council's budget authority. You
[36:00] have that budget authority until June
[36:02] 22nd. Once you adopt a tentative rate on
[36:06] June 22nd and you let the county auditor
[36:10] know and the state tax commission know
[36:12] how much revenue you need, at that point
[36:15] you can only go lower. You cannot go
[36:18] higher.
[36:19] Does that make sense?
[36:21] Okay.
[36:22] Good questions, Foley.
[36:26] Okay. This is just a sample property tax
[36:29] impact schedule. Yours looks really
[36:31] similar. Uh this one got the check of
[36:34] the State Tax Commission. Um they like
[36:36] it and so I am certain that yours will
[36:38] be fine as well because it's modeled
[36:41] after it and you've got all of the key
[36:43] information there uh that the Tax
[36:45] Commission wanted to see on a property
[36:47] tax impact
[36:48] schedule.
[36:49] Um and this is new. This might change
[36:51] next year, right? This was our first
[36:53] time out. Um and they they told us Frank
[36:56] and I were on a Tax Commission training
[36:59] today on this and they said they've now
[37:02] reviewed dozens. Just so you know, we
[37:04] know right now of 50 different cities
[37:07] and towns going through this process
[37:09] this year. So you're not alone. There
[37:11] are a lot of us and and we're out there
[37:13] learning together. Tax Commission said
[37:15] they reviewed dozens and that they all
[37:17] look pretty good. That and I think it's
[37:19] because we put out an example and we had
[37:22] worked with the Tax Commission to get
[37:24] this example ready before we released it
[37:26] to our local officials 3 weeks ago now,
[37:29] right? Down in St. George.
[37:31] So these are just your applicable
[37:33] statutes. Um if you want to go back and
[37:35] look at the laws that govern truth in
[37:37] taxation, whether you're a city or town.
[37:40] Um the blue are the just the general
[37:42] budget process and then the green uh
[37:45] govern truth in taxation. Tax Commission
[37:48] told us today that the final language of
[37:51] the laws are now online live. So no
[37:53] longer do we have to go back and look at
[37:56] those um bills from last year. Up until
[37:59] just this week we've been using those
[38:01] bills to help us um
[38:04] sift through everything we needed to do
[38:06] because the language online hadn't
[38:08] caught up yet, but it's there now.
[38:11] This is um the Tax Commission checklist.
[38:14] So this is a really great tool. I hope
[38:17] you've downloaded it already. If if any
[38:20] resident wants to see the steps that
[38:22] cities and towns and school districts
[38:24] and everyone will have to go through,
[38:27] um you need to currently you need to
[38:29] email the tax commission if you want it
[38:31] directly from the tax commission. Um
[38:34] they're having an issue putting it on
[38:36] their website because it is not um ADA
[38:39] fully ADA accessible yet and they need
[38:41] to have they can only post links to
[38:43] things that are ADA accessible. However,
[38:47] if you look at your Friday Facts from
[38:49] the Utah League of Cities and Towns from
[38:51] either April 17th or 24th or May 8th,
[38:55] this is all online at the Utah League of
[38:57] Cities and Towns. We took their PDF and
[39:00] we've got it there for you. So, you can
[39:02] get to the checklist if you want to see
[39:04] the checklist. And if you don't get
[39:06] Friday Facts, you can just go to the
[39:08] Utah League of Cities and Towns website
[39:10] and look for the property tax resources,
[39:13] but this checklist is going to be
[39:14] invaluable to you.
[39:16] Secondly, at the Utah League of Cities
[39:19] and Towns website, we have um a really
[39:22] detailed spreadsheet that lists out
[39:25] Frank, was it 53 tasks?
[39:28] that you need to go through um
[39:31] and some of them are required by
[39:33] statute, some of them are tax commission
[39:36] rule, and then some of them are best
[39:39] recommendations that that we're just
[39:40] making to you.
[39:42] Um so, you can go look at can hold you
[39:45] can say, "I don't really care about
[39:46] Carrie's best practice recommendations.
[39:48] I just want what's in the statute." You
[39:51] can get rid of the recommendations and
[39:52] just see the statute requirements or you
[39:54] can just look at what the tax commission
[39:56] uh requirements are. So, that's a really
[39:58] helpful tool for you and you can see
[40:00] that on that we've uh cited the
[40:03] statutory reference so that if you want
[40:05] to go back and read the law for
[40:06] yourself, which we hope you do and we
[40:09] hope your attorneys do um because that
[40:12] you'll see it at the end, but but we're
[40:15] not giving you legal advice here. We're
[40:17] giving you our best read of the law. You
[40:19] have your attorney, and your attorney
[40:21] needs to give you the legal advice for
[40:23] your community.
[40:26] So, now we're going to do a deep dive
[40:27] month by month, and we're going to use
[40:29] this same legend that we used. We're
[40:32] going to focus a lot on the Aqua, which
[40:35] are the new requirements for 2026.
[40:38] So, January to April, we're well past
[40:41] that now. Um but that's when I like to
[40:43] have that annual goal setting session,
[40:45] and I start looking at the historic
[40:48] revenue and expenditure trends as we
[40:49] build the budget.
[40:51] Um at that point, and if you haven't
[40:53] already, please go in and create or
[40:55] update as a as a city your user
[40:58] information in the certified tax rate
[41:00] system. You're going to need to be
[41:02] putting information into that system
[41:04] throughout the process. So, you want to
[41:06] make sure that you can get in there, and
[41:08] you can access the system well.
[41:10] Um in mid-April, um
[41:13] we thought people should maybe have a
[41:15] training like this, where you talk about
[41:18] property taxes, and you talk about the
[41:19] way property taxes work in Utah.
[41:22] Okay, May.
[41:24] Um
[41:25] the first Tuesday or first meeting in
[41:27] May, depending on when your first
[41:29] meeting of May is, you've already passed
[41:32] that. As far as I can tell, you've
[41:34] already checked all the boxes that
[41:36] needed to be checked. You had your
[41:38] property tax impact schedule as a
[41:40] separate item on your agenda and
[41:42] separate from your budget. You made two
[41:44] different statements, and with each
[41:46] statement you made an intention that you
[41:48] were going to make the statement. Um I
[41:50] think that's where some people are going
[41:52] to get tripped up this year. Cam, when
[41:54] we were presenting last week at the
[41:56] Rural Growth Summit down in Wayne
[41:58] County, he said that's probably part of
[42:00] the language we'll work on next year, is
[42:02] that do it making an intention and then
[42:04] a statement feels
[42:05] a little clunky, but it is how we are
[42:08] all interpreting the code this year. And
[42:11] so, I'm glad you did it that way because
[42:13] we feel pretty strongly and and actually
[42:16] the tax commission in the meeting with
[42:18] me training last Thursday said, "Yep, we
[42:21] interpret it the same way. The same way
[42:23] you read it, that's how we read it." So,
[42:25] we're really glad that that you've got
[42:27] that through. You'll want to make sure
[42:29] in your minutes that it's well reflected
[42:32] in the minutes that you did all of that.
[42:34] So, you've got your agenda and then have
[42:36] your minutes before you finalize the
[42:37] minutes of that last meeting.
[42:40] For as you go through this process, what
[42:42] you don't want is the tax commission to
[42:45] have to go fumbling through your
[42:46] recordings and stuff to find the
[42:48] information they're looking for. So,
[42:50] talk to your clerk's for orders and have
[42:52] them be really great about really
[42:54] putting in these details as you go
[42:57] through in your minutes. So, that when
[42:59] you submit this as evidence and we're
[43:01] going to talk about that at the end of
[43:02] the process, you need to submit evidence
[43:05] to your county auditor and the state tax
[43:07] commission, your minutes become part of
[43:09] that evidentiary record. And then I
[43:12] think that you followed our best
[43:13] recommendation approach of three
[43:15] different resolutions. Um it looked like
[43:18] it on the draft agenda that I saw. And
[43:21] again, that's helping the tax commission
[43:24] see that that information was provided
[43:26] to the public. And doing it in
[43:28] resolution form then involves the
[43:31] legislative body giving the direction to
[43:33] move forward. And so, that's why we
[43:36] recommended that approach.
[43:38] Um you've got that then we said, you
[43:41] know, maybe have a mid-May town hall
[43:42] meeting and and you're doing that to
[43:44] talk about the reasons why. This is the
[43:46] next statement. I didn't put it in the
[43:48] first Tuesday because it's not legally
[43:50] required to be there. You've done it
[43:52] already, but but between those dates,
[43:55] that statement's required.
[43:58] These are our recommended practices.
[44:00] Number one is we think you should create
[44:02] an electronic file location and that's
[44:05] where you're going to start saving all
[44:06] of your evidence.
[44:08] So, you're going to save those signed
[44:09] resolutions. You're going to save the
[44:11] agenda. You're going to save your
[44:13] minutes, so that it's really easy for
[44:15] you to pull together this evidentiary
[44:17] package when you need to at the end of
[44:19] the process and send that through to the
[44:21] tax commission.
[44:23] Um
[44:24] And then, this
[44:26] It was very interesting to me when I was
[44:28] training with the tax commission last
[44:30] week. My recommendation for our cities
[44:33] and towns is that every time you discuss
[44:36] the budget from now until June 30th,
[44:39] whenever the budget's on your agenda,
[44:42] please include your property tax impact
[44:44] statement as a separate informational
[44:47] item and include it here in the meeting
[44:50] physically.
[44:51] Um When I said that, the tax commission
[44:54] said, "Because legally, the way the law
[44:57] is written, you only need do that if
[45:00] you're having a budget hearing."
[45:03] And I just think that this is all about
[45:05] transparency, and so why wouldn't we
[45:08] include it every time we have a budget
[45:10] discussion?
[45:11] And the tax commission said, "We agree,
[45:15] and we're going to be looking to see if
[45:17] the schedule was there at every meeting,
[45:20] because they they actually think it was
[45:22] kind of a drafting error that it says
[45:23] hearing, not meeting." And so, I really
[45:27] think if if as we move forward, just put
[45:29] it on every agenda as an informational
[45:31] item. And the example I gave in the
[45:34] training last week was
[45:36] say you have somebody who comes to your
[45:38] meeting,
[45:39] wasn't at your tentative budget meeting,
[45:42] comes to your next meeting where you're
[45:43] discussing the budget, but you're not
[45:45] discussing public safety or the tax
[45:47] increase, you're discussing that say
[45:49] animal control.
[45:51] If you don't have the schedule on your
[45:53] agenda, and if it's not there for them,
[45:57] they honestly could maybe not even know
[45:59] you're proposing a tax increase.
[46:02] And so, in transparency, if it's on the
[46:04] agenda every single time as your
[46:07] property tax increase impact schedule,
[46:10] then you've just been fully transparent
[46:12] that this budget that we're discussing,
[46:14] even though we might not be discussing
[46:16] that aspect tonight, the budget as a
[46:19] whole includes this property tax
[46:21] increase.
[46:22] Um and then,
[46:24] you know, again, I just I love town
[46:26] halls. I love bringing the public in.
[46:28] Frank and I worked with a client last
[46:30] year on doing theirs. By the way, when
[46:32] all of the others or many of the others
[46:34] didn't get through, ours did. Our
[46:36] the one we were working on did get
[46:38] through, but it was awesome. They had a
[46:40] community potluck. Now, who will show up
[46:43] to a community potluck where you're
[46:44] going to talk about taxes?
[46:46] Their community did. Um and they said it
[46:49] was great fun. Everyone brought food.
[46:51] They shared the food with one another,
[46:52] and then they talked about the budget,
[46:55] the constraints on the budget, and why
[46:57] the elected officials were were
[46:59] contemplating raising the taxes, which
[47:02] they ultimately did.
[47:04] We've talked about the first meeting in
[47:05] May recommendations and the three
[47:07] resolutions submittal. I won't go
[47:09] through those tonight.
[47:11] This, for the members of the public who
[47:12] are here, uh one of the things that we
[47:14] provided was a best practice sample
[47:17] agenda, and your agenda mirrored the
[47:20] sample. That was great. And so, we
[47:23] wanted again, we wanted to make it
[47:25] really easy for cities and towns uh to
[47:28] meet the requirements of that first
[47:30] meeting in May. You had all eight items
[47:32] on your agenda as as I saw them. Um and
[47:35] so, that was great.
[47:37] So, then into June. Um you always had to
[47:40] do this in June. You had to set the
[47:42] public hearing date and time for your
[47:43] truth in taxation hearing.
[47:46] Um and you need to notify by June 1st
[47:48] the auditor and the state tax
[47:49] commission. Um if you If you should have
[47:53] set that time in your last meeting, um
[47:56] notify them now. Don't wait till June
[47:58] 1st. If you haven't already sent that
[48:00] notification, get it sent on tomorrow.
[48:03] Um, because the county auditor needs to
[48:06] then take all of those dates that are
[48:08] set and needs to balance and make sure
[48:11] that no tax hearings are overlapping one
[48:14] another. So that a taxpayer has an
[48:17] opportunity to go to every tax hearing
[48:21] that will impact their property. And
[48:23] it's quite an elaborate process. I know
[48:25] in Salt Lake County, the county auditor
[48:27] has designated one night that's going to
[48:30] be all cities because they know they
[48:33] won't overlap with anyone else. So
[48:35] they're not going to have any other
[48:36] entities on that night. It's just going
[48:38] to be all the cities who are going
[48:39] through truth and taxation in Salt Lake
[48:41] County on that one night. But if you
[48:43] haven't already, you have until June
[48:46] 1st, but I would not wait until June
[48:47] 1st. You've already You did it last week
[48:50] procedurally, so go ahead and make those
[48:52] notifications to your county auditor and
[48:55] the state tax commission.
[48:57] Uh, in June, this has been a big
[49:01] question. Do we still need to have a
[49:03] public hearing on the tentative budget
[49:05] in June? Yes. Nothing in the law
[49:08] exempted us from not having the
[49:10] regularly scheduled June public hearing
[49:13] on our tentative budget. So you should
[49:15] still plan You should have set that date
[49:17] last week when you adopted your
[49:19] tentative budget. You should still plan
[49:21] to have that hearing and it can be no
[49:24] sooner than 10 days after the release of
[49:26] the tentative budget. So some
[49:28] communities I know like to have that
[49:30] budget at the end of May. They just need
[49:32] to make sure they've given enough time
[49:34] that the tentative budget's been out
[49:35] there. And then just a reminder, again,
[49:39] if at your June hearing, this isn't a
[49:41] recommendation of best practice, you
[49:43] must have that schedule available and it
[49:47] must be a separate item on your agenda.
[49:49] Can be informational, but it needs to be
[49:52] there on the night of your June budget
[49:54] hearing, okay? Your property impact
[49:57] schedule.
[49:59] And then before June 22nd,
[50:02] uh you need to adopt a resolution
[50:03] establishing the tentative tax rate. And
[50:06] you'll you'll narrow in on what that
[50:08] needs to be. The county auditor's going
[50:10] to help you with the tax commission uh
[50:13] because you're going to be exceeding the
[50:14] certified tax rate, but whether you're
[50:16] going through truth and taxation or not,
[50:19] everyone needs to do this step by June
[50:21] 22nd because this is what goes into the
[50:24] county auditor's notice that goes out to
[50:26] the public. Okay? So, by June 22nd, uh
[50:31] actually before June 22nd, you can't do
[50:33] it on the 22nd. It's The law says
[50:35] before.
[50:37] Um you need to adopt the resolution
[50:38] tentatively establishing the rate that
[50:41] will produce the revenue that you need
[50:43] it to produce.
[50:45] And then before the last day of June, so
[50:47] by June 30th, you need to adopt an
[50:50] ordinance or resolution approving your
[50:53] interim budget. This is where we're no
[50:55] longer in truth and taxation tentatively
[50:58] approving the final budget. You approve
[51:00] that interim budget to give you your
[51:02] spending authority beginning on July 1.
[51:07] So, also in June, you can request that
[51:11] the county auditor include your property
[51:13] tax impact schedule in the statements
[51:16] that they mail out to the public.
[51:18] If you want it included, you will have
[51:21] to pay for that. They They likely won't
[51:23] pay for it. You will need to get it to
[51:26] them in June,
[51:27] um but after June 22nd, you can only go
[51:30] down. You can't go up anyway. So, you
[51:32] should have that schedule pretty set. If
[51:35] you want to include it, ask your county
[51:37] auditor. They must include it if you're
[51:40] willing to pay to have it included.
[51:42] Yes, Frank.
[51:46] Yes, also in January you'll have three
[51:49] resolutions, but I want to make sure
[51:51] that there's also a resolution adopting
[51:54] your property tax impact schedule. So,
[51:56] by the time
[51:59] we're there,
[52:00] you've had your public hearing on your
[52:02] tentative budget and you're adopting an
[52:04] interim budget one resolution, tax levy
[52:07] two resolutions.
[52:08] We This is a best practice.
[52:11] Nothing is
[52:12] It's probably required, but we
[52:14] >> adopting your tentative budget by
[52:16] resolution for what? But but the
[52:17] tentative budget well uh And the rate.
[52:20] but
[52:21] uh the property tax impact schedule
[52:25] should also be adopted. And you may have
[52:27] refined it, you may have changed it, but
[52:29] you should adopt it
[52:32] at that same
[52:33] uh time.
[52:35] And and
[52:37] uh that's a good point, Frank. We asked
[52:39] that question today in the tax
[52:41] commission training.
[52:43] Uh we said, "Do they need to adopt the
[52:45] schedule separately?" And the tax
[52:47] commission said, "Yes." And we will want
[52:49] to see evidence that that was adopted
[52:50] separately. So, when you say that we
[52:53] what we could send to the county to mail
[52:55] out, it would be this schedule that we
[52:57] would be sending? [clears throat]
[52:58] Yes.
[52:59] But but by then we would have what they
[53:01] are giving us as our tax rate. So, this
[53:04] could change a little bit if the tax
[53:07] rate they come in and it does a little
[53:09] bit differently. Yeah, but they need to
[53:11] have that by June 13th. So, you should
[53:13] be able to adopt what the rate will be
[53:16] by June 22nd like you've always had to,
[53:18] even if you're not going through truth
[53:19] and taxation.
[53:21] If you consider sending that schedule,
[53:24] something you might want to add to the
[53:26] schedule is the monthly impact because
[53:30] many of your residents pay their taxes
[53:34] in monthly increments with their
[53:36] mortgage. And so, it's sometimes nice to
[53:39] be able to say in addition we By law you
[53:42] have to show the annual impact. But,
[53:44] sometimes it's nice to be able to say,
[53:47] "And that annual impact is $8.72
[53:50] a month."
[53:51] So, that people can understand what that
[53:53] monthly impact is. And for me, that's
[53:56] the benefit of sending that schedule. If
[53:59] you can get some information in the
[54:01] hands of the public that helps them to
[54:03] better understand what you're doing,
[54:06] it might be worth including that.
[54:09] So, and you'll just need to ask the
[54:10] auditor how much it will cost to include
[54:13] that in that mailing.
[54:14] Okay?
[54:16] Thanks for that, Ed Frank. That was That
[54:18] was right. We learned that today in the
[54:20] treatment taxation.
[54:22] Here are our recommended best practices
[54:24] for June. Um see, we had adopting the
[54:27] property tax impact schedule as a
[54:29] recommended best practice, and we'll now
[54:32] amend the language to say tax commission
[54:34] kind of wants it as a tax commission
[54:36] rule,
[54:37] um that we'll adopt that.
[54:39] And then, um
[54:42] again,
[54:43] each time in June and that you have, and
[54:46] we said this in May, but each time in
[54:49] June that you have the budget on, please
[54:51] have that property tax impact schedule
[54:54] on the agenda as a separate item, and
[54:56] then have hard copies in your meeting.
[54:58] The tax The way the tax commission
[55:00] answered the question was they said that
[55:03] they read the part of the law that says,
[55:06] "Make the schedule available." mean you
[55:09] have a hard copy. That's so you can hand
[55:11] it to somebody. You're making it
[55:13] available to them.
[55:15] Okay?
[55:16] So, now we're done with the regular
[55:18] budget process. We won't see any more
[55:20] dark blue. Now, we're just like, if we
[55:22] were not raising taxes, we're finished.
[55:25] But, because we're raising taxes, we're
[55:27] going to continue to go on.
[55:29] So, in July,
[55:31] sometime before July 22nd, you will
[55:34] receive a notice from the county auditor
[55:38] with your evaluation and and all of the
[55:40] information you need finalizing the
[55:43] time, date, and place of your public
[55:45] hearing for August. And also, you will
[55:47] get from them a schedule of all of the
[55:50] truth and taxation hearings that are
[55:52] going on in the county during the year
[55:56] or for for the tax season.
[55:58] You will need to prepare and publicly
[56:00] post your agenda for your August truth
[56:02] and taxation hearing. We put this in
[56:05] July because if you have the hearing
[56:08] early in August, you need to do this in
[56:10] July. It needs to be done as part of
[56:12] July.
[56:14] And then there are some date
[56:15] requirements. They're not new. Um needs
[56:17] to be 14 days a minimum of 14 days
[56:20] before the scheduled hearing date. And
[56:22] then there there can be it should it I
[56:25] can't even emphasize it enough should be
[56:28] it it must be. No other agenda items on
[56:32] the night of your truth and taxation
[56:34] hearing. No other agenda. You know,
[56:37] we've had lots of questions. Well, if we
[56:39] do this at 6:00, can we have another
[56:41] agenda at 7:00 to do general business?
[56:44] Not if you want a tax increase. You will
[56:46] not get certified if you have any other
[56:49] business other than the tax increase.
[56:52] Um the tax commission clarified today,
[56:55] you can adopt your final budget on the
[56:58] night of the tax increase hearing, but
[57:00] that's it. It's you're you're adopting
[57:03] you're having a public hearing on the
[57:04] tax increase, you're adopting your final
[57:06] tax rate, and adopting your final
[57:08] budget, and that is it that night. So,
[57:11] if it ends up that it's one of your
[57:13] regularly scheduled meeting nights, you
[57:16] might have to call a special meeting for
[57:18] another time if you have other business
[57:20] that needs to be conducted. This tripped
[57:23] so many communities up last year because
[57:25] they they said it wasn't on the same
[57:27] agenda. It was completely separate
[57:29] agenda. And the tax commission and it's
[57:32] not their fault. They have no latitude.
[57:34] The The law is what the law is, and the
[57:37] law says no other business on that
[57:39] night. No general business. Um so, that
[57:42] was really emphasized in the
[57:43] legislation. So, in public hearings
[57:46] no allowed comment over the comment. So,
[57:48] does that mean that we are restricted in
[57:49] what we can discuss in that public
[57:51] hearing as well? If we're asked about
[57:52] something and not related to that tax,
[57:54] do we need to
[57:55] instruct
[57:56] >> That's a good question, lawyer.
[57:59] >> [laughter]
[58:03] » You're not restricted. If somebody asks
[58:04] you a question, I mean, you're there to
[58:06] answer it. It's not on your agenda. Uh
[58:09] you have not agendaed it as something
[58:11] you would take action on.
[58:13] Certainly a member of the public's going
[58:14] to ask you a question. I feel like
[58:16] you're free to answer it.
[58:18] Maybe off topic. And you as you know, as
[58:20] council members, that happens all the
[58:22] time. So, uh yeah, sure. But, I think
[58:25] the issue is is it on the formally on
[58:27] the agenda uh that
[58:31] you're going to take action on it. That
[58:33] uh
[58:34] these other cities that got trouble or
[58:36] towns and cities that got in trouble
[58:38] last year were actually action items.
[58:41] So,
[58:42] uh yes,
[58:43] they bring something up, they're
[58:45] certainly free to answer the question
[58:46] and deal with it. Okay, thank you.
[58:49] Um and that's an interesting question to
[58:52] me because a lot of the public hearings
[58:54] that I participate in, there isn't
[58:56] dialogue back and forth. The body just
[58:59] accepts the public comment and doesn't
[59:01] make them serve the questions. That's
[59:03] your own rules. That's what you decide
[59:05] to do. Um and we'll get into this more
[59:08] when we talk about We've got a deep dive
[59:10] on the hearing night, but you do need to
[59:13] let you know, pretty much everyone who
[59:15] wants to speak needs to be able to
[59:16] speak. You can put time limits on it
[59:19] like you normally do for your meetings.
[59:21] Um but, you need to allow people to
[59:23] speak at the hearing. And we'll get into
[59:25] that a little bit more.
[59:26] Okay?
[59:27] Uh next in for July and into August
[59:31] for 14 days before the date of your
[59:34] hearing, whatever your hearing date is,
[59:37] you need to post on the front page of
[59:40] your website the county auditor's list
[59:44] of all of the hearings. This tripped
[59:46] people up last year as well.
[59:48] That posting needs to stay on the front
[59:52] page of your website until you get your
[59:55] certified rate from the State Tax
[59:57] Commission. That will probably be
[59:59] sometime in September.
[1:00:01] So, it will go on. You will not move it.
[1:00:04] You will leave it there. You're going to
[1:00:06] take a screenshot of it as evidence that
[1:00:08] it was there when you turn in your
[1:00:09] evidentiary file. Please have a way that
[1:00:12] you can see the date so that you can
[1:00:14] show the date that it went on. Maybe
[1:00:16] take one in the interim to show that it
[1:00:18] was still there. And then on the date
[1:00:20] that you submit your file, take another
[1:00:22] one to show it's still there.
[1:00:24] Um but it needs to stay and the law the
[1:00:27] law is very clear. It has to stay until
[1:00:30] the State Tax Commission certifies your
[1:00:32] new rate.
[1:00:33] And that that could be We're going to
[1:00:35] talk about that process, but it could be
[1:00:37] into September.
[1:00:39] So, in August uh your you need to at
[1:00:42] least 14 days before the August hearing
[1:00:44] date, you need to create a notice in the
[1:00:47] Truth in Taxation system. And that's the
[1:00:49] notice that you're going to post lots of
[1:00:51] different places. Um you need to post it
[1:00:54] It's a class A notice. Uh your clerk
[1:00:57] recorder should know what that means and how you post a class A notice. But
[1:01:02] it needs to be on the Utah Public Notice
[1:01:04] website. It needs to be on your
[1:01:06] municipality's website. It needs to be
[1:01:08] in a physical location where you meet.
[1:01:11] So, here you would post it there. And
[1:01:14] then you post in Utah Legals. Um there's
[1:01:17] no longer a requirement that you post in newspaper. However, our experience in
[1:01:23] working with Utah Legals is that they
[1:01:25] often require you to post in a newspaper
[1:01:28] so that you post up there's.
[1:01:30] Um Frank has a best practice that you do
[1:01:34] not wait until 14 days and he and I
[1:01:36] argued over this last year because I
[1:01:38] thought he was being a nervous Nellie.
[1:01:40] Um and it was a good thing that he that
[1:01:43] we tried to get that in 21 days in
[1:01:45] advance because it was a weekly the
[1:01:47] community we were working with they only
[1:01:50] their their Utah Legals in their
[1:01:52] community only goes weekly. And um they
[1:01:55] messed up the first one. And so because
[1:01:58] we had been 21 days out we had time to
[1:02:01] correct the error.
[1:02:03] Uh
[1:02:04] don't cut it so close that you don't
[1:02:06] have time because if you miss this
[1:02:07] you're done.
[1:02:09] There isn't there there in the law this
[1:02:11] year
[1:02:13] there is a little bit of grace for the
[1:02:15] things that are in aqua for the things
[1:02:17] that are brand new in 2026. There is no
[1:02:20] grace on any of the other stuff that's
[1:02:22] always been in the law for us.
[1:02:24] So don't don't cut it to the edge of the
[1:02:28] time. And and again that's airing on
[1:02:31] transparency you're giving more notice
[1:02:33] not less notice but also give yourself
[1:02:36] that pivot time. When we woke up I woke
[1:02:39] up at like 5:00 in the morning and he
[1:02:41] said will you go check and make sure the
[1:02:43] ad got posted and I pulled it up I'm
[1:02:45] like
[1:02:46] it's not there.
[1:02:48] Uh you know and so we had to scramble
[1:02:50] but then we had a week and then the next
[1:02:52] week when we woke up early and it was
[1:02:54] there you know we were doing the Snoopy
[1:02:56] dance the ad was there and we were able
[1:02:58] to continue with our client moving
[1:03:00] forward in the process.
[1:03:02] So that's just a horror story but give
[1:03:04] yourself time to pivot. But as everyone
[1:03:06] knows now in an open meeting on the
[1:03:08] record Frank she said you were right.
[1:03:10] Oh.
[1:03:11] >> [laughter]
[1:03:11] >> Thank you counselor.
[1:03:15] So
[1:03:16] uh again we talked about this posting
[1:03:19] that needs to be on your website. We put
[1:03:21] it again in the August recommendation
[1:03:23] because if your hearing's later in
[1:03:25] August, you'll probably do the posting
[1:03:27] in August, not in July. And we just
[1:03:30] wanted to make sure there was no
[1:03:31] ambiguity.
[1:03:32] Now, 24 hours before the hearing, you
[1:03:36] need to post instructions for virtual
[1:03:38] participation in the hearing on your
[1:03:40] entity's website. I've been working on
[1:03:44] this today.
[1:03:45] It's shocking to me how many of our
[1:03:47] communities do not have a way for people
[1:03:50] to participate virtually. So, they can
[1:03:53] watch virtually, but they can't
[1:03:55] participate virtually. They have to be
[1:03:58] able to participate virtually to meet
[1:04:00] the law.
[1:04:01] And so, if you don't currently, you've
[1:04:04] got time. It's We're only in May, but
[1:04:07] you've got to be able to have people be
[1:04:09] able to participate virtually, and we
[1:04:12] learned on the training today by phone
[1:04:14] call.
[1:04:16] So, it's not just I click a link and I
[1:04:18] participate. They also want to have a
[1:04:20] phone number that people can call into
[1:04:23] and participate by phone call as well.
[1:04:26] And we need to allow people to submit
[1:04:28] comments before the hearing, and if we
[1:04:31] get written comments before the hearing,
[1:04:34] we need to get them into the public
[1:04:35] record at the hearing to make sure that
[1:04:37] the council's aware of those comments.
[1:04:40] So, I don't know if that impacts you. I
[1:04:43] know it impacts some other people we're
[1:04:45] working with, um that they do not
[1:04:48] currently allow virtual participation.
[1:04:50] They allow people to watch on YouTube,
[1:04:52] on the Zoom, but it's not a two-way
[1:04:54] street. It's not a oh, you can comment,
[1:04:57] or you know, we can turn to you and take
[1:04:59] your virtual comment. So, we've got to
[1:05:01] figure out how to do that.
[1:05:03] By August. And And if you have to figure
[1:05:06] out how to do that, you're not alone.
[1:05:08] And I sent a a note into the League of
[1:05:10] Cities and Towns today to let them know,
[1:05:12] I think there might be a tripwire. We've
[1:05:15] got to We've got to figure out how we
[1:05:16] help our communities through this one.
[1:05:19] Okay? And then, on the assigned August
[1:05:21] date, you'll conduct your Truth in
[1:05:23] Taxation hearing on the proposed
[1:05:25] increase, and we've talked about that.
[1:05:27] Um you're going to state the dollar
[1:05:28] amount, you're going to explain the
[1:05:30] additional of tax revenue, you're going
[1:05:32] to explain the reasons for the proposed
[1:05:34] increase, and you'll include the
[1:05:36] intended use of the revenue.
[1:05:39] Now, this is what's kind of funny. This
[1:05:41] is basically your property tax impact
[1:05:43] schedule.
[1:05:44] What is all And this is green. This has
[1:05:47] always been required. We've always had
[1:05:49] to do this as part of Truth in Taxation
[1:05:51] in August. And so, that's where the
[1:05:54] thought process came from during the
[1:05:56] legislative session. Is when we were
[1:05:58] looking at it, I don't know if you were
[1:06:00] following the session, but during the
[1:06:02] session, the legislation started out
[1:06:05] that you would create two complete
[1:06:06] different budgets. One with a tax
[1:06:08] increase, one without. And the League of
[1:06:11] Cities and Towns and us, but you know,
[1:06:13] as contractors of the League, we were
[1:06:14] arguing that's just too hard on our
[1:06:17] communities to have to do two complete
[1:06:19] different budgets.
[1:06:21] Um and they said, "Then come up with a
[1:06:23] solution." And it was the fact that we
[1:06:25] already had to do this. We said, "Why
[1:06:27] don't we just make it a schedule and put
[1:06:30] it at the beginning of the process,
[1:06:32] because we have to do it in August
[1:06:34] anyway?"
[1:06:35] And so, that's that's kind of where that
[1:06:37] idea was born from. It's not a new
[1:06:40] requirement, the schedule. You had to do
[1:06:42] it anyway. We're just having you do it 4
[1:06:44] months earlier
[1:06:46] than when you had to turn it in.
[1:06:48] So, now let's talk about the night of
[1:06:50] the hearing. The hearing must be at or
[1:06:52] after 6:00 p.m.
[1:06:54] Um the hearing uh may not overlap with
[1:06:57] any other entity's hearing. The county
[1:06:59] auditor will make sure of that. They
[1:07:01] will make sure that they balance all of
[1:07:03] those out.
[1:07:04] This is new. It may not be on the same
[1:07:07] date as a public meeting for uh
[1:07:09] addressing any other kind of business.
[1:07:11] This is so explicit this year. It was
[1:07:14] Some people thought it was a little gray
[1:07:16] last year. We didn't think it was gray.
[1:07:18] It's super explicit this year. They did,
[1:07:21] however, say you could have it on the
[1:07:23] night of a regular meeting. It's just
[1:07:26] that then you can't do any other
[1:07:27] business that night. If you have it if
[1:07:29] you, you know, choose to ask the auditor
[1:07:31] to have it on that night.
[1:07:33] And then printed copies of your public
[1:07:35] property tax impact schedule should be
[1:07:37] made available at the hearing as well.
[1:07:41] The only items allowed on the hearing
[1:07:43] agenda, as we talked about before, are
[1:07:45] related to the hearing and then the
[1:07:47] final budget adoption. So, it'll be your
[1:07:49] hearing, it'll be adopting your final
[1:07:52] tax rate, and it'll be your final budget
[1:07:55] adoption. If you don't adopt your final
[1:07:58] budget that night, in that meeting, you
[1:08:00] need to state when you're going to.
[1:08:03] Okay? You don't have to adopt it that
[1:08:05] night. If you If after the hearing you
[1:08:07] just say, "We're not ready. We're not
[1:08:09] ready to adopt the final budget."
[1:08:12] Uh you need to tell people when you are,
[1:08:14] but it has to be done by September 1st.
[1:08:17] Um
[1:08:19] The These are just talking about the
[1:08:21] things that you need to explain and
[1:08:22] again, basically, it's your property tax
[1:08:25] impact schedule. It's everything on that schedule is what's
[1:08:28] required to be stated in that August
[1:08:30] hearing anyway.
[1:08:32] We've talked about the public must be
[1:08:34] able to participate both in person and
[1:08:36] online.
[1:08:38] And by telephone, we learned today.
[1:08:41] Call. They need to be able to call. And
[1:08:43] then, if your county auditor, if you
[1:08:45] have other hearings in the county, if
[1:08:47] the county auditor produced that list of
[1:08:49] the hearings, you need to have
[1:08:51] [clears throat] that list We've already
[1:08:52] talked about it being on your website.
[1:08:54] We need to have it available that night
[1:08:55] at the hearing. Question.
[1:08:58] Just looking at the worst the scenario.
[1:09:01] So, uh
[1:09:02] we don't participate now online in that.
[1:09:06] If we do everything in our power to make
[1:09:09] it work and there's a failure that
[1:09:11] night, what happens? Because it's blue
[1:09:15] because that online participation is in
[1:09:17] blue, I think that there's a little bit
[1:09:19] of give there, but it has to be a good
[1:09:21] faith effort. But, I think we're going
[1:09:23] to figure out a way to help people cross
[1:09:25] [clears throat] that finish line because
[1:09:28] you're not alone. Big communities don't
[1:09:31] have virtual participation. I mean, that
[1:09:33] I I was doing some sampling today
[1:09:36] um because one of our clients, they
[1:09:38] don't do that. And so, I called other
[1:09:41] communities and and I would And that's
[1:09:43] why I sent it in to the league and I
[1:09:44] said, "If our larger communities don't
[1:09:47] allow virtual participation, I can't
[1:09:49] imagine that this isn't going to be a
[1:09:51] problem for some of our smaller." So, as
[1:09:54] you mentioned, they can call in by
[1:09:55] phone. So, that could be We'll have that
[1:09:59] also option. So, if worst case scenario
[1:10:01] it doesn't work, then they still should
[1:10:03] be able to have that ability to call on
[1:10:05] the phone that we will have available
[1:10:07] there that I'm assuming then is on
[1:10:09] speaker when they call in ask a question
[1:10:12] Yep. Or make their comment. Yep. Okay.
[1:10:14] Yep. And you you can still put all of
[1:10:17] that, you know, all time restrictions
[1:10:20] around all of that
[1:10:22] like you would any normal hearing.
[1:10:23] Frank?
[1:10:28] So, we have not had an opportunity to
[1:10:30] look at this late. This is a a very uh a
[1:10:32] different bill. There was 236 and then
[1:10:35] there was another bill. So, this Senate
[1:10:36] bill 238 Yeah, 238. Uh
[1:10:39] that
[1:10:40] has these provisions in it. And so, uh
[1:10:44] we're going to explore this further. Uh
[1:10:47] we did not anticipate the our
[1:10:51] all these communities
[1:10:53] having this issue. So, we will get back
[1:10:55] and Terry will get back to you. Uh
[1:10:59] but we need we need
[1:11:00] an opportunity to look at this. We're
[1:11:02] going to look at it in the next few days
[1:11:04] and see and talk to the tax commission.
[1:11:07] You know, today they mentioned the phone
[1:11:09] and
[1:11:10] I was sitting there
[1:11:11] wondering whether if it provided
[1:11:13] comments, would that be adequate.
[1:11:16] Uh
[1:11:16] but then they then they brought up the
[1:11:17] phone. So,
[1:11:19] uh we need to explore that. We will get
[1:11:21] back to you on this issue in the next
[1:11:23] few days. One thing is a note on
[1:11:25] just encourage you to take that when you
[1:11:26] start professionally and do learning and
[1:11:29] development trainings and I do them
[1:11:30] virtually for hundreds of people.
[1:11:32] Um I don't know of a way or software
[1:11:35] that allows us to restrict multiple
[1:11:37] comments. Uh so, if we're publicly
[1:11:39] you're allowed to get up and make
[1:11:40] comments and you get 3 minutes, but
[1:11:42] that's what you get. On the phone you
[1:11:44] would get comments, but you get 3
[1:11:45] minutes, that's what you get. But if
[1:11:47] you're virtual and you're sending in a
[1:11:48] bunch of chats or spamming the chat or
[1:11:50] whatever that, you know, we have to have
[1:11:51] somebody monitoring those questions and
[1:11:53] how do we um regulate
[1:11:57] those comments coming in and making sure
[1:11:59] that it's not just kind of filibustering
[1:12:01] the meeting and gives an opportunity for
[1:12:03] us to make sure we're addressing what's
[1:12:04] being asked, but also holding people to
[1:12:06] the restriction of if they were talking
[1:12:08] in person, they'd have 3 minutes, but
[1:12:09] they could type as many questions as
[1:12:11] they want. So, I know in instance of
[1:12:14] Zoom that the league uses, they can do
[1:12:17] things. They can mute somebody, so they
[1:12:20] can give them their 3 minutes and mute
[1:12:22] them, and they can also completely turn
[1:12:24] the chat off. And I would assume that's
[1:12:26] what you would do, is you would say,
[1:12:28] "We're going to turn the chat off. Chat
[1:12:30] is not the way we're taking the
[1:12:32] comments.
[1:12:33] Uh if you want to submit written
[1:12:35] comments, here's the email address.
[1:12:37] Submit them through that."
[1:12:39] Um but I but I think So, so just the see
[1:12:43] you know, using Zoom that way, but I
[1:12:45] think the problem is it's an expensive
[1:12:48] license. And so, I I that's what some of
[1:12:50] our communities have faced. like one of
[1:12:52] the city managers I talked to today
[1:12:54] said, "Oh yeah, we allowed all of that
[1:12:56] during COVID, but then people weren't
[1:12:59] using it after COVID, so we dropped that
[1:13:01] licensing as a budgetary savings
[1:13:04] approach."
[1:13:05] So so as Frank said, this literally was
[1:13:08] unfolding in the hour and a half before
[1:13:11] we came here after the tax commission
[1:13:13] hearing, and so we'll follow up with
[1:13:15] you. We've got time to get this figured
[1:13:17] out as communities before August.
[1:13:20] Okay.
[1:13:22] Um and and so we talked about that list.
[1:13:24] You've got to have that list available.
[1:13:26] And then uh finally, you need to provide
[1:13:30] all interested persons the opportunity
[1:13:32] to speak on the proposed tax increase.
[1:13:37] All right. Oh, and then we talked about
[1:13:39] that. If you're not going to make your
[1:13:40] budget decision that night, you need to
[1:13:42] state in that meeting when you're going
[1:13:44] to when the next meeting is that you'll make the budget decision.
[1:13:48] So then into September. So by September
[1:13:51] 1st, you need to adopt an ordinance or
[1:13:54] resolution implementing your new rate
[1:13:56] that exceeds the certified tax rate, and
[1:13:59] adopt an ordinance or resolution
[1:14:01] approving your final budget for the
[1:14:03] fiscal year. Now, you don't have to
[1:14:05] re-adopt your uh impact statement
[1:14:07] because the revenue now is in your final
[1:14:09] budget. It's part of the final budget
[1:14:11] that you adopt.
[1:14:12] Um and then you need to send copies of
[1:14:16] those ordinances, and there are
[1:14:18] different things throughout the process
[1:14:20] that you need to send them to the tax
[1:14:21] commission, and times that you need to
[1:14:24] go in and you need to update things in
[1:14:25] the system, and that schedule on the
[1:14:28] League of Cities and Towns website will
[1:14:30] help walk you through like, "Okay, we
[1:14:32] need to go in and put the rate in now.
[1:14:34] We need to go do these things." And the
[1:14:36] tax commission will help you with that.
[1:14:38] Their checklist is going to tell you the
[1:14:40] things that you need to be doing, when
[1:14:42] you need to be updating their system.
[1:14:45] But once all of that is done, within 7
[1:14:48] days of adopting your budget, you have
[1:14:50] to send your package of evidence to the
[1:14:52] tax commission and the county auditor.
[1:14:55] And they told us that today. We need to
[1:14:57] update this slide now because it does
[1:14:59] need I asked the question. I said, "Does
[1:15:01] it need to go to the county auditor?"
[1:15:02] And they said, "Yes." Because the county
[1:15:05] auditor also can not by law look at it
[1:15:08] and certify that they helped the tax
[1:15:11] commission say, "Yes, they met all of
[1:15:12] the requirements from the county auditor
[1:15:15] perspective."
[1:15:16] Um and so you'll submit all of that.
[1:15:19] That's why I think you want your date
[1:15:22] earlier in August because if you don't do this until September
[1:15:26] 1st, they then have 30 days after you
[1:15:30] submit to certify your rate. They may
[1:15:33] not take the 30 days, but if they did
[1:15:36] and you didn't turn it in it like if you
[1:15:39] adopt Say you adopt on the 30th
[1:15:42] uh or the 31st of August, you take your
[1:15:45] 7 days, you're now into September and
[1:15:47] they take their 30 days, you could be
[1:15:50] October before they certify your rate
[1:15:54] and and you're home to the races and
[1:15:56] ready to go. And so for for the people
[1:15:59] we're working with, we're asking for
[1:16:01] early August dates even though it means
[1:16:04] we're going to have to do, you know,
[1:16:06] some advertising work during kind of
[1:16:08] what's that peak peak uh holiday season
[1:16:11] in July,
[1:16:13] um we think it's worth the trade-off so
[1:16:15] that we can get the process like
[1:16:17] front-loaded and get the certified rate
[1:16:19] back from the tax commission as early as
[1:16:22] possible. What date did you all put in
[1:16:24] to the tax or to the county auditor?
[1:16:28] I believe it was the first Thursday in
[1:16:30] August. I can probably look it up real
[1:16:31] quick. I'm pretty sure when we discussed
[1:16:33] it that we had that and it was our first
[1:16:36] meeting in August, but I can look.
[1:16:38] Perfect. No no need to look, but that's
[1:16:40] just to know I think that's wise because
[1:16:43] it keeps the process moving along.
[1:16:45] Hopefully, you'll get that date. It just
[1:16:47] depends on how they have to balance
[1:16:49] against everybody else.
[1:16:51] Okay? And then again, you go back in and
[1:16:54] you update the entity information in the
[1:16:56] certified tax rate system. And then
[1:16:58] there is a form PT-800
[1:17:01] that you will fill out and you will send
[1:17:03] to the tax commission and you can send
[1:17:05] it with the resolution that adopts the
[1:17:08] tax rate. You can send the In fact, when
[1:17:10] we write the resolutions, when Frank
[1:17:12] writes them, he actually authorizes the
[1:17:15] signing of the PT-800 form in the
[1:17:18] resolution so that the council has
[1:17:20] authorized that that can be signed. And
[1:17:22] I I looked up here, Carrie, and it was
[1:17:24] we set that for August 6th. Okay,
[1:17:27] perfect.
[1:17:28] So so yeah, your advertising, you'll
[1:17:29] just back up from that, you'll be
[1:17:31] advertising in July.
[1:17:33] Um and then within 30 days of your
[1:17:36] adoption of your final budget, you just
[1:17:38] do just like you would in a normal
[1:17:40] process and you submit that to the state
[1:17:41] auditor.
[1:17:43] So uh just the few things looking ahead,
[1:17:46] avail yourself of the tax commission
[1:17:48] checklist if you haven't already.
[1:17:50] Um I I spent a lot of time with the tax
[1:17:53] commission last week in Wayne County
[1:17:55] when we were doing this training.
[1:17:57] Their staff want you to succeed.
[1:18:00] They do not want to have to not certify.
[1:18:03] Um and so they've really put a lot of
[1:18:05] time and effort into being very
[1:18:07] comprehensive in their checklist so that
[1:18:09] you can get through the process.
[1:18:11] Um
[1:18:12] in that, however, they have very limited
[1:18:15] authority. They have very limited
[1:18:18] ability to say, "Oh yeah, they meant
[1:18:20] that. Oh yeah, that's what they meant to
[1:18:22] do." Uh that that was taken away from
[1:18:25] them last year. And so you really have
[1:18:28] to be, you know, super
[1:18:31] uh detail-oriented on this. And then in
[1:18:33] your minutes, really get things in those
[1:18:35] minutes. Otherwise, as your evidence,
[1:18:38] you're going to need to tell them where
[1:18:39] the timestamps are so that they can go
[1:18:42] listen to it because they don't want to
[1:18:43] have to listen to your whole meeting.
[1:18:45] They want to be able to go to the
[1:18:46] timestamp of where
[1:18:48] the information is. They are doing some
[1:18:51] trainings.
[1:18:52] We like I said, we went to one today. I
[1:18:55] can let you know if I hear of another
[1:18:57] one. Today's was pretty good. I thought
[1:18:58] they did a really nice job talking
[1:19:00] through what they're expecting, but they
[1:19:02] really leaned hard into the checklist
[1:19:05] and said that people should use that.
[1:19:07] And then the supplemental support that
[1:19:09] we have for you. And then the one-year
[1:19:11] grace period is for the things in this
[1:19:14] slide deck that are in aqua only. And
[1:19:17] what that means is mayor, exactly what
[1:19:19] you said. If the tax commission looks at
[1:19:21] it and says, "You know what? They They
[1:19:24] really did the spirit of what we were
[1:19:26] after, but they had a technology fail or
[1:19:29] they had something happen." Then there's
[1:19:32] that little bit of flexibility, but
[1:19:34] there is zero flexibility on anything
[1:19:37] that's a prior requirement. So, it's
[1:19:39] only the things that are new
[1:19:41] requirements
[1:19:42] with this year's
[1:19:44] lots of legislation.
[1:19:46] And then I always end with our lawyer's
[1:19:49] fine print that's not so fine. None of
[1:19:51] this is legal advice. Lean on your
[1:19:54] attorney. Your attorney might have you
[1:19:56] do things different.
[1:19:58] Frank does things, you know, with a lot
[1:20:00] of resolutions and ordinances. Other
[1:20:02] attorneys may choose to do motions on
[1:20:05] some of it, but we think the best
[1:20:07] practice is that that way Frank Frank
[1:20:10] does it because then we've created the
[1:20:12] record. And so that body of evidence, if
[1:20:15] we can put it, you know, Frank Frank has
[1:20:17] in the resolution for one of our clients
[1:20:19] we're working with now, we had them
[1:20:21] actually develop their purpose statement
[1:20:24] of why they're doing the tax increase
[1:20:26] and we put it as an appendix in the
[1:20:28] resolution. So that it's just And then
[1:20:31] they stood up and you were there. You
[1:20:33] can I I wasn't at that meeting. Tell
[1:20:34] them how that meeting went.
[1:20:37] I had to drive down to Wayne County, so
[1:20:39] he had to cover the meeting. Boy, she's
[1:20:41] really building you up tonight.
[1:20:43] I'm pretty impressed with you. Now, they read the statement into the record.
[1:20:49] The purpose statement of theirs was much
[1:20:51] longer
[1:20:53] uh than yours would be. Uh I can see it.
[1:20:56] You're focused on primarily one issue,
[1:20:58] that's public safety. Yours is a lot
[1:21:01] easier to see. So,
[1:21:03] uh maybe their their purpose statement
[1:21:05] was much uh
[1:21:07] had different departments and different
[1:21:09] issues, but they read in the record.
[1:21:11] Yeah, I believe in resolutions because
[1:21:14] we control that the the
[1:21:16] uh
[1:21:17] discussion and the the narrative uh
[1:21:19] and the tax commission. Uh
[1:21:22] they don't want to be looking into your
[1:21:24] minutes and uh they and then go look for
[1:21:27] the recordings. They can see what we've
[1:21:29] done. Uh
[1:21:31] that the sooner they they can see that,
[1:21:33] the sooner you get your tax rate
[1:21:35] certified.
[1:21:36] So, I I don't mind putting it piece by piece in a resolution. That's
[1:21:40] just the way I operate, but
[1:21:43] you're not required to do that. But your
[1:21:45] purpose statement should is very
[1:21:47] straightforward. I I read it. Uh it's
[1:21:49] pretty straightforward, so
[1:21:51] you can have it a little easier than
[1:21:52] most.
[1:21:54] And just so you know, Frank was a
[1:21:56] 10-year city attorney for Salt Lake and
[1:21:58] a 20-year city attorney for Murray.
[1:22:00] So, when I say he's writing all the
[1:22:02] resolutions, I would not attempt to
[1:22:03] write the resolutions. He does it
[1:22:05] himself.
[1:22:07] Okay? So, that's the end of my training.
[1:22:09] If there are any questions uh that we
[1:22:11] haven't asked along the way, I'm well
[1:22:14] happy to take any. So, I when you asked
[1:22:17] since I went back and did a little
[1:22:18] figuring here about most of them do
[1:22:20] about 14%
[1:22:22] of their general fund.
[1:22:24] >> That's average. Yeah.
[1:22:25] >> So, I figured ours and just for weighing
[1:22:28] those listening and those here, so our
[1:22:30] general fund anticipated budget is
[1:22:33] $4,192.50.
[1:22:37] Or
[1:22:38] yes, $190,150.
[1:22:42] Currently, we have 7%
[1:22:45] of our property tax
[1:22:48] is in the general fund. In the general
[1:22:50] fund because we get this year we'll
[1:22:52] probably get around $290,000
[1:22:56] per year tax. With our anticipation
[1:22:59] of this, which is on our form, of
[1:23:01] getting $428,000,
[1:23:04] that will bring us to 10%.
[1:23:07] So so still below average for the job
[1:23:10] cities we're at. Yes, we're still below
[1:23:12] average. And and in my humble policy
[1:23:14] opinion, moving in the right direction.
[1:23:17] Cuz I don't like to see us so low in
[1:23:19] property taxes that I like I said, I
[1:23:22] like to get a little closer to those
[1:23:24] services that we can't pull back on if
[1:23:27] we have the economy constricted on us.
[1:23:30] And so every other tax that we have is
[1:23:33] more volatile. It goes up and down with
[1:23:36] economic cycle. Property tax is the one
[1:23:38] that stays pretty stable for us. Yeah,
[1:23:40] carry with the
[1:23:42] >> [clears throat]
[1:23:43] >> I like how you talked about putting the
[1:23:45] monthly impact because when we tell our
[1:23:47] residents we're looking at a proposed
[1:23:49] 47% increase,
[1:23:51] that's got a sticker value. But when we
[1:23:53] tell them it's $3.27
[1:23:55] per month to be able to have access to
[1:23:58] those six new officers, it may make that
[1:24:00] a little easier to swallow.
[1:24:02] You know, that's a really good point and
[1:24:04] I should have mentioned this. Um
[1:24:06] one of the things and in the League of
[1:24:08] Cities and Towns, I think you saw down
[1:24:10] in St. George, they've created some
[1:24:12] training videos on property taxes for
[1:24:14] you. And part of that is showing the
[1:24:16] public that when we talk about a 47%
[1:24:20] property tax increase, We're talking
[1:24:22] about 47% of probably 8% of the total
[1:24:27] property tax. And so, it's showing that
[1:24:29] whole bill so that they can see that you
[1:24:31] don't take most of it, but the
[1:24:33] percentage feels so large because it's based on your little sliver of the
[1:24:40] pie.
[1:24:41] Um and you may want to figure that out.
[1:24:43] Unfortunately, you may not put that on
[1:24:46] that statement. We had or on the
[1:24:48] schedule. We had that on a schedule and
[1:24:51] the tax commission said, "You You That
[1:24:54] is an assumption because you don't know
[1:24:56] what every other entity is doing. And
[1:24:58] so, you don't know in that year what
[1:25:01] that slice of the pie is." But you could
[1:25:03] say in other materials,
[1:25:06] you know, you could you could have some
[1:25:08] other materials produced that say, "You
[1:25:10] know, we only take of your total
[1:25:12] property tax bill, we only get 7 or 8 or
[1:25:16] 9% of it." Whatever that is, you can
[1:25:19] look at it and see. Um and that 47% is
[1:25:23] just of that little slice. But yes,
[1:25:25] that's why we like getting it down to
[1:25:27] that monthly number because then
[1:25:29] people Otherwise, they think it's 47% of
[1:25:32] $2,000
[1:25:33] rather than 47% of the little slice that
[1:25:36] you get.
[1:25:38] Karen, um actually this year too in the
[1:25:41] legislature, as I recall, they actually
[1:25:44] had a bill that they were looking into
[1:25:46] that was going to limit cities to a 5%
[1:25:49] Yeah. annual bump in property taxes for
[1:25:53] our city
[1:25:55] wouldn't amount to We couldn't even buy
[1:25:56] popcorn with that. Well, and I think
[1:25:59] that's why we have 50 communities going
[1:26:01] through this because I think that people
[1:26:03] understand that the reality of that
[1:26:05] legislation coming back is likely.
[1:26:09] And so, they need to get their property
[1:26:11] tax kind of right-sized so that if they
[1:26:14] then are limited in any given year to
[1:26:16] 5%.
[1:26:17] It's it's more doable. If you're a
[1:26:20] community like some of those that I
[1:26:22] showed you that are less than 1% reliant
[1:26:24] on property tax, if you if we get
[1:26:27] limited to 5%, that community will never
[1:26:29] catch up. They will never be able to
[1:26:32] have property tax paid for their
[1:26:34] services in any kind of a holistic way.
[1:26:38] So, I that's a very good point and that
[1:26:40] was a piece of legislation that didn't
[1:26:42] pass this year. We fully expect it to be
[1:26:45] back. So, it it closed?
[1:26:47] Um yeah, it was talked about deep into
[1:26:50] the session.
[1:26:51] Carrie, do you
[1:26:53] think there would be any caveats to
[1:26:54] cities
[1:26:56] Obviously, it's hard to look in the
[1:26:58] future, especially with our legislature,
[1:27:00] but
[1:27:01] would they write in do you think they
[1:27:02] would write in any kind of exception for
[1:27:04] cities that basically don't collect a
[1:27:07] property tax that that 5% cap would keep
[1:27:10] them behind for decades?
[1:27:14] I I I could not presume to
[1:27:17] think what they would do.
[1:27:20] Yeah, but but
[1:27:22] I think that the headwinds against
[1:27:24] property tax are really strong right now
[1:27:27] and that's what you're seeing in the
[1:27:29] legislative session, but I do think that
[1:27:32] Cam and the team at the League of Cities
[1:27:34] and Towns were able to do a great job of
[1:27:36] educating legislators about our needs.
[1:27:41] You know, and then there were the bills
[1:27:43] that were limiting
[1:27:45] our fund balance and things like that.
[1:27:47] And so, I think that we did a really
[1:27:49] good job educating this year,
[1:27:52] but I do I mean, this process and for
[1:27:55] those who might be watching online feels
[1:27:57] very cumbersome, but it it is believe
[1:28:00] me, it is mountains better than two
[1:28:02] budgets.
[1:28:03] And so, and and and honestly, it's a
[1:28:07] transparency we should be having.
[1:28:09] They're discussions we should be having
[1:28:11] and we should be having them right now
[1:28:14] in May and in June, not in August. I
[1:28:18] mean, August should be perfunctory
[1:28:21] because we really should have hashed
[1:28:23] things out in May and June.
[1:28:25] You also made I believe you made your
[1:28:28] slide presentation available to us that
[1:28:30] you presented at the League of Cities.
[1:28:32] There are some changes in this. Will you
[1:28:34] also forward or make us a copy so that
[1:28:36] we can This is This is on your computer
[1:28:38] already.
[1:28:39] >> All right. I just want to say you've
[1:28:40] already got it. Yes, we made a couple of
[1:28:42] tweaks. And we're And we're continuing
[1:28:45] to tweak like Frank said, you know,
[1:28:47] we're going to figure out this new thing
[1:28:48] we learned today.
[1:28:50] Um I sent it off to the league just
[1:28:52] before we came here with a headline of
[1:28:54] Houston, we might have a problem.
[1:28:57] Um and so I just want them to be talking
[1:28:59] about it because we want to stay in
[1:29:01] front of these issues as we all go
[1:29:02] through this together this year.
[1:29:05] Okay?
[1:29:07] Any other questions, comments?
[1:29:09] And I just want to say we've tried to be
[1:29:11] really transparent with this and when we
[1:29:13] went through our, you know, tentative
[1:29:16] budget when we approved that because
[1:29:17] that's we knew there was this increase
[1:29:20] that was coming and that's one thing
[1:29:21] that our city treasurer really
[1:29:23] recommended. Look, we can keep
[1:29:25] subtracting from fund balance.
[1:29:28] But that's one-time money.
[1:29:30] But eventually there it's no longer
[1:29:32] there and if we don't somewhat start to
[1:29:34] get on top of this Yep.
[1:29:37] then we're we're not not being very
[1:29:40] solvent as a city. Well, it's not
[1:29:42] fiscally responsible, right? It's just
[1:29:44] like in our home budgets. When we have
[1:29:46] savings, we get to spend our savings
[1:29:49] once.
[1:29:50] Then it's gone and then we don't get to
[1:29:52] spend it again and if we don't have a
[1:29:53] way to replenish our savings and to make
[1:29:56] sure we've got it there, it's it's
[1:29:57] exactly the same scenario.
[1:30:00] Um and so I think your treasurer was
[1:30:02] right that if you've been, you know, for
[1:30:04] a few years spending down fund balance
[1:30:06] as the way to balance the budget, you
[1:30:08] don't get to do that forever. At some
[1:30:11] point, you have to say, we need
[1:30:14] additional ongoing revenue. And and then
[1:30:17] maybe you follow up with a a policy
[1:30:19] discussion of, you know, do we want to
[1:30:22] only do this once every 13 years or do
[1:30:25] we want to do it with more regularity so
[1:30:28] that we don't get ourselves into this
[1:30:31] position. So that we you know, and and
[1:30:33] then you adopt a policy uh that would be
[1:30:36] we're either going to do smaller more
[1:30:38] frequent or we're going to do less
[1:30:40] frequent larger.
[1:30:42] That's I mean that those are your
[1:30:43] choices, right? Um I would always
[1:30:46] advocate that never isn't a choice
[1:30:50] if you're being fiscally responsible
[1:30:52] with the community.
[1:30:54] Well, and that's the one issue that we
[1:30:55] are dealing with is we have a lot of
[1:30:56] capital improvement projects that we
[1:30:58] need to take care of and our fund
[1:31:01] balance isn't going to cover them. So we
[1:31:03] need
[1:31:04] stuff like this to Yeah.
[1:31:06] to help us still provide services that
[1:31:09] we need for the city.
[1:31:10] >> Right.
[1:31:10] There's another community right now who
[1:31:13] you know, they just they actually took a
[1:31:15] dollar bill and and I liked the way I
[1:31:18] can send these visuals to you if you
[1:31:20] want them, but they took a dollar bill
[1:31:22] and they broke down the dollar bill so
[1:31:24] that people could see where that was
[1:31:26] going to where a dollar of the tax
[1:31:27] increase was going to. And of their
[1:31:30] dollar, 43 cents is going to capital
[1:31:34] projects.
[1:31:35] And so they they just said, we're so far
[1:31:37] behind on capital infrastructure that a
[1:31:40] good chunk of this increase that we're
[1:31:42] asking for is going to every year we're
[1:31:45] we've adopted a capital improvement plan
[1:31:48] and we're going to dedicate this ongoing
[1:31:51] revenue source to funding those
[1:31:53] projects. You know, and I said Frank,
[1:31:55] wow, almost half of their increase is
[1:31:58] going to cap their capital projects to
[1:32:01] fund capital projects. We for sure need
[1:32:03] you to send us that dollar.
[1:32:05] Okay. Okay, I'll send my I thought they
[1:32:07] were really great visuals and so I'll
[1:32:09] send them to you because it just breaks
[1:32:11] it down into a way and then they had a
[1:32:14] pie chart that showed, you know, how
[1:32:16] much of the property tax bill total goes
[1:32:18] to their community. Um I just I thought
[1:32:21] they did a really nice job. So I'll send
[1:32:23] them off, Mayor. I'll get back to you.
[1:32:25] Great.
[1:32:27] See, I I like to go look at all this
[1:32:28] stuff, isn't it nice?
[1:32:30] Thank you. Is there any other questions
[1:32:32] that we have
[1:32:34] from the audience that is here? Any
[1:32:37] other questions that are
[1:32:39] I don't have a question, but thank you
[1:32:41] so much for coming. I I don't even know
[1:32:45] I just want to come give you a great big
[1:32:47] hug just for
[1:32:48] being here and explaining it to I mean,
[1:32:50] this is the second time I've heard it
[1:32:52] from you.
[1:32:53] And it made more sense to me tonight and
[1:32:57] by having it on our site, if anybody's
[1:33:00] uh listening to it,
[1:33:02] just go back and watch it and
[1:33:05] uh we really appreciate you. Yeah,
[1:33:07] absolutely and thank you for inviting us
[1:33:10] to come.
[1:33:11] Um and then also, you can get links to
[1:33:14] these, but you know, all of the
[1:33:15] different budget trainings that I do for
[1:33:17] you, if you want to use those with your
[1:33:20] community to just really talk about how
[1:33:22] you budget and how the budget process
[1:33:23] works, those are all on the League
[1:33:26] website as well. So Yeah, I was going to
[1:33:28] ask cuz this is a public meeting, so I'm
[1:33:30] sure we'll show it. It'll be listed cuz
[1:33:32] that's going to be displayed. So I
[1:33:34] wasn't sure how that works for your
[1:33:36] organization to allow your training to
[1:33:38] just be published out there, but I you
[1:33:40] know, we got to let it go. It's It's
[1:33:41] Yep, it's fine. It's It's my little
[1:33:43] business that I come out on. I do
[1:33:46] contract with the League of Cities and
[1:33:47] Towns for theirs and they put it out. Um
[1:33:50] but you know, Frank and I, we just
[1:33:52] laugh. We're like, we do this and then
[1:33:54] we just give it away to other people. We
[1:33:56] appreciate
[1:33:56] >> [laughter]
[1:33:57] >> you both and I'm not going to come hug
[1:33:59] you.
[1:34:02] Cuz he's a nervous Nellie.
[1:34:15] » [laughter]
[1:34:18] >> Alrighty, well hopefully I'll see you
[1:34:19] all in October, right? In Salt Lake
[1:34:21] City. Yes, and thank you so much and I
[1:34:23] will I'll just tell everybody anytime I
[1:34:26] met one of the Utah League meetings and
[1:34:29] I see Carrie's name, I attend every
[1:34:32] single one of the seminars that she does
[1:34:34] and after I've been down to the League
[1:34:36] in St. George and then you presented it
[1:34:38] online, I watched it again online and we
[1:34:41] had talked about it, those of us that
[1:34:43] were at the meeting. We could have tried
[1:34:45] to have explained this, it would have
[1:34:47] never ever been the information that you
[1:34:50] were able to do and that's why we felt
[1:34:52] like this was so important. And just as
[1:34:54] you mentioned, it'll now be online that
[1:34:56] people can go on, they can watch this
[1:34:58] over and over and hopefully people will.
[1:35:00] So again, yes, thank you and thank you
[1:35:02] as well for coming. Yes, thank you.
[1:35:05] And with that, um
[1:35:07] is there I don't think we didn't
[1:35:09] actually make a motion second, does
[1:35:11] someone want to make a motion to
[1:35:12] adjourn? So moved. Okay. Okay. We have a
[1:35:15] motion a second. A second. Okay, all in
[1:35:17] favor? Aye. Okay, this is now our
[1:35:19] meeting is adjourned. Thank you so much
[1:35:21] for coming. Yep, thank you. Recording.