[0:00] Heat.
[0:15] [music]
[0:24] Heat.
[music]
[0:35] » [music]
[0:45] » Heat. Heat. [music]
[0:56] » [music]
[1:03] » Call this meeting to order. Please stand
for the pledge.
[1:06] » I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the
[1:11] republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[1:17] justice for all.
>> I was wondering
[1:22] First item up on the agenda today is
opportunity for questions and comments
[1:26] from the public. If anyone would like to
come up, please come to the mic. State
[1:31] your name and address for the record.
>> Which mic?
[1:33] » Uh this one over here is
[1:39] how's it going? Uh my name is Dan. This
is my wife Sarah. Um we live on 909 Lime
[1:46] Kilm Pike, 5 minutes away down the
street. and we're just trying to make
[1:51] awareness known of an issue that um we
experienced last Thursday. Um it rained
[1:57] 3 in I think in about 45 minutes and um
in the two years we lived at the house.
[2:03] It never really flooded like the way it
did and we had property damage as well
[2:09] as our neighbors. There was property
damage that happened. Um, when the rain
[2:14] stopped and I was taking videos and
pictures, I walked to the top of the
[2:18] hill where Welsh and Limekllin meet.
There's a development being built on the
[2:24] upper Dublin side, Maple Point, and I
have videos of, you know, the rain water
[2:30] coming right down the hill off of their
giant mounds. Um, there was an upper
[2:35] Dublin cop in the video and I don't know
who moved it, but there's like rain
[2:40] barriers that are on the side of their
property that someone moved that was
[2:46] redirecting the water right down our
street, which flooded us. Um, I called
[2:51] Upper Dublin the day after they directed
me to this guy named Tom Felton who was
[2:56] a township engineer. Um, he said
basically Upper Dublin doesn't really
[3:01] have any responsibility. as soon as uh
the permits are finalized. So, we would
[3:06] have to take up some kind of possible
lawsuit with um the builder um Blair or
[3:14] um Maple Point, and I was just seeking
more information. and he said they have
[3:21] already installed the rain basins so
they should work but my next door
[3:26] neighbor said they might have redirected
the water because they were concerned
[3:30] about mud going down the sewer drains.
So I was kind of wondering like these
[3:34] things kind of don't add up as far as
why they would move the rain barriers
[3:37] and um flood out our property. Um
there's a nursery across the street from
[3:42] us. They took pictures, but they had to
immediately repair a bridge to their
[3:48] driveway cuz they need to keep operating
their business. But I have videos,
[3:52] pictures. Um, we're just seeking um is
there some [clears throat] kind of a
[3:59] solution that we can seek? I know
Limekllin Pikes is a state road, so it
[4:03] gets maybe a little more complicated,
but there's a large amount of rainwater
[4:08] that comes down and you know, our our
property is lower than the street. So,
[4:14] we're seeking to make this known and uh
in 2 years that happened and I don't
[4:22] want to find out ne the next time it
rains like that or harder. So, I'll let
[4:27] my wife Sarah say something.
Yeah. Um, we're new homeowners. We've
[4:33] had our house for two years. We got
married. March will be two years. So,
[4:39] we're newly relatively newly married.
We're the new the newest married in our
[4:43] families. Um, and we're trying to save
up to have a family and it makes it a
[4:49] little bit difficult when things in the
community that are outside of our
[4:53] control are affecting our budget. um
when we're trying to do what we can to
[4:58] invest in our community. We both work
within the community. I do hospice. I'm
[5:03] a hospice social worker and my husband
is in the pl the plumbing drains
[5:09] industry. And so we have a deep
investment in the community both through
[5:14] living in the community, um going to
church within the community, um working
[5:19] within the community.
Uh and so when we've spoken with our
[5:24] neighbors whom we've become very close
with and friendly with, they've all
[5:27] expressed that this has been a growing
issue over the years where it formerly
[5:32] was not a problem and then when Lime
Pike was subsequently, it sounds like it
[5:38] was raised up in the past where it was
formerly lower than the lines of the
[5:45] property. Maybe it was like repaved or
something, but they were making comments
[5:49] that it would the lawns were formerly
not flooded out. And ever since the road
[5:54] was changed and then the construction
started up the road and the water was
[5:58] coming running off of those construction
sites that it's become an even bigger
[6:03] problem. And we've noticed that just in
the time that the second construction
[6:06] site started development because the the
one that started across from the bank
[6:13] was already being built when we moved
in. And then when this second one at
[6:18] that intersection broke ground and they
started putting the the houses and the
[6:24] developments in, it became significantly
worse because now it's not the grass
[6:28] being able to absorb the water. Um, and
I think we just kind of want to know if
[6:33] it's appropriate for police to be or
whoever moved the rain barricades. I'm
[6:38] not going to allege something that I
didn't see, but if it's appropriate for
[6:42] those rain barricades to be redirecting
water directly to our properties and
[6:46] local businesses and getting flooded out
or if that's something that should be
[6:50] going down the the rain the sewer, what
are they called?
[6:54] » Storm drains.
>> Storm drains. Thank you.
[6:56] um the storm drains and if there's
something that could possibly be done to
[7:01] create more of a long-term fix so that
way the community isn't paying the price
[7:05] for
builders who've got a lot of money on
[7:08] their hands.
[7:12] » Thank you. [clears throat]
>> Thank you.
[7:13] » Yeah. First of all, welcome to Horscham.
Thank you. Thank you for choosing
[7:16] Horscham. Um I for Were you speaking?
No, I was going to pitch this over to
[7:22] [clears throat]
>> I'll and then I'll toss it to the our
[7:25] engineer. Um, so we did call Upper
Dublin Township as as you could probably
[7:30] like we had no control enforcement or
authority in another township. Um, so I
[7:36] did advise a few residents to call the
Montgomery County Conservation District.
[7:40] Um, they do have jurisdiction and
authority um on erosion and sediment
[7:46] controls on new developments throughout
the county. Um, so I don't know what the
[7:50] outcome of that has been. Um, but the
rainstorm is a rarity. Um, the entire
[7:56] town was flooded. Um, my I live off
Welsh Road um, closer to Dresser Road.
[8:03] Um, and my neighborhood was flooded. Um,
when you get those type of storms, and
[8:10] I'll let Eric talk about the 100redyear
storms and all that, it doesn't matter
[8:14] what you have. um what type of basins
they get full, the pipes get full,
[8:19] inlets get full. They're only designed
to hold so much water. Um so we're lucky
[8:24] in this area of the country that we
don't get those floods on a normal
[8:29] basis. Um so like you said, it was 3 in
in 2 hours or whatever it was. That's a
[8:35] rarity in this area. Um but we've had
them before. Um, and I've lived here
[8:42] most of my life and had, you know, the
worst one was 11 in in about 2 hours and
[8:49] um, it was bad. Um,
>> so we're fortunate. Um, but I wish I had
[8:55] the answer and the solutions. We don't
when we get hit by those storms and it's
[9:00] just not that area of the township and
it's just not Horscham Township, it's
[9:06] um, the whole entire area. Um, and
luckily, I want to knock on wood. Um,
[9:12] this summer, um, when we've been hit by
these major thunderstorms, some odd
[9:17] reason, someone's watching over
Horscham, um, we they've gone north,
[9:21] south, and around us, and we've watched
on the news the communities where people
[9:26] have lost their homes. So, um, I I um,
your situation, I don't know if
[9:32] everything was in place where it should
have been. Um, we we did contact Upper
[9:36] Dublin and I would also encourage you to
contact the Montgomery County Soil
[9:41] Conservation District. Um, their offices
are located in Collegeville. Um, but
[9:47] they're the ones that oversee those new
developments and make sure that
[9:51] everything but even if it was when you
get hit by a storm like that.
[9:58] » Yeah. Sometimes it just gets mother
nature does what mother nature wants to
[10:02] do and it just overtakes even all the
erosion and sedimentation controls they
[10:07] have in place. But I'll let Eric talk
about
[10:11] » Sorry, can I ask just a clarifying
question if you don't mind sharing what
[10:15] kind of damage you sustained at your
home because it could like we've had
[10:18] things where it diverted from a corner
of our house that's lower. So just
[10:22] thinking about
>> So we're saving up to redo the driveway.
[10:26] So, it's a gravel driveway, but
basically we've been using stone from my
[10:30] work to sort of fill in where sometimes
uh it was low when we first moved in,
[10:36] but it basically created a giant pothole
in our driveway and it was and the
[10:41] concrete. Um, and across the street, the
nursery, it was a giant hole in the
[10:48] bridge and they had to I have pictures.
I'm happy to share them. Um I have
[10:52] videos too, but they didn't really have
time to like fight it out in court or
[10:57] whatever.
>> Sure. Sure.
[10:59] » We can also come out um if you give us
your phone number to Dennis before you
[11:04] leave. Um you know, we can schedule a
time like Eric and myself and some
[11:09] others from the township staff can come
out and take a look at things. I can
[11:12] tell you um from having spent most of my
life here and working here that area of
[11:20] the town is not a typical area where
there's flooding problems. So I don't
[11:26] want to sort of like smooth over what
you experience but I want to also sort
[11:30] of raise your comfort level being new
homeowners that that is not an area
[11:34] where we have concentrated normal
flooding problems.
[11:39] » Yeah. if you do come, feel free to take
some herbs from the garden. Um, but I
[11:44] think my question would be, is it an
appropriate
[11:47] response from the neighboring township
of Upper Dublin to have rerouted those
[11:53] large black tubular sandbags to redirect
the water down Lime Pike? Um, it
[12:00] effectively [clears throat] stopped
traffic moving in a particular
[12:02] direction. And I thought it was quite
odd that a storm drain, which is
[12:08] designed to take on water, was being
surpassed at the expense of our
[12:14] properties. Our front yard was
essentially a river for a couple hours
[12:18] and our neighbor got completely flooded
out. Like you couldn't see any grass on
[12:22] their property. And like I said, we've
been noticing that water kind of
[12:26] accumulates in our driveway and our
neighbors driveways over the two years
[12:30] that we've been in the property. Um, and
by no means are we saying that like
[12:35] Horscham needs to take responsibility
for acts of God. Um, but is the
[12:40] intentional actions of the neighboring
township appropriate? That would be like
[12:45] my most primary concern.
>> I don't know. Oh,
[12:49] » yeah.
[laughter]
[12:52] » This is Chief Fida. He's our He's our
police chief here in Horscham.
[12:56] » So, I saw what you're videotaping in the
in the roadway. I don't think that
[13:02] they're they're those large socks that
you you know you're you're
[13:05] » So these are the silt socks,
>> correct? Silt socks. It looked to me
[13:09] because I was trying to find I live
right down the street from you guys
[13:11] trying to find my way home. It looked to
me that there was just so much water,
[13:16] storm water buildup on that property
that it just pushed these out into the
[13:20] street because I'd love to throw shade
at a neighboring police department if I
[13:24] could, but I but they they certainly
wouldn't put it across as as you said.
[13:28] It also blocked the entire length of
Welsh. So, and I haven't been doing this
[13:33] 25 years. I've seen it happen before
where I think I don't I think that was
[13:37] just a rush of water. They do have their
storm drains and and whatnot in there,
[13:43] but I like like you were saying, I just
think they were overwhelmed. So, I if
[13:46] that helps you, I don't think they
intentionally did. I think that was just
[13:49] mother nature doing.
>> Thank you, Sarah.
[13:52] » Are they supposed to be tacked in, Eric?
>> So, yeah. And so, thank you, Chief, cuz
[13:57] I was going to ask, who did you see move
these things? Cuz it wasn't making sense
[14:01] to me that
>> I didn't see anybody move them. I just
[14:03] walked to the corner.
>> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see anybody move
[14:06] them. It just at the corner. The the cop
was just conveniently parked right where
[14:12] it was happening. And then like it's
obvious in the video it's like
[14:17] » so so these silt socks come in different
sizes and they are sized based on the
[14:22] drainage area that are coming to them.
Um and what Bill was saying and not to
[14:27] get too nerdy engineer on everybody but
like a 100red-year storm is like 8 in
[14:32] over 24 hours right so getting 3 in in
an hour the intensity of that far
[14:40] exceeded the hundred-year storm. So like
the Namy Creek, the Penny Packac creek
[14:45] probably had no flooding in it, but we
get these localized issues. Um, and not
[14:50] to get into a political debate about
global warming or not global warming,
[14:53] but we're getting more rain at higher
intensities. Who knows why, but we are.
[14:58] Um, and so a lot of these local areas
that silt sock was designed for the
[15:03] hundred-year storm to get eight inches
over 24 hours and then it gets three in
[15:06] a short period of time and it's just too
much pressure, too high of velocity and
[15:11] it blew it out. Um, and I haven't driven
past upper Dublin site. It sounds like
[15:16] it's still under construction. It's
still bare earth. Um so during
[15:22] construction and you know Bill called me
I guess about a year or two ago when the
[15:26] Miracle League field was under
construction and said oh you know water
[15:29] went on horse road and it's like well
during construction things are sized
[15:33] differently there's more runoff so
longterm as that development gets done
[15:39] and grass gets established and those
basins get converted to their final form
[15:45] this shouldn't happen again. this might
just I know this doesn't like make you
[15:49] feel much better but like of what
happened already but it could have just
[15:53] been quoteunquote the perfect storm of
under construction three inches in an
[15:57] hour nothing's ever sized to deal with
that um but as Bill said um you know you
[16:04] get your name and number certainly happy
to go out and see it firsthand um and
[16:10] oftentimes and you said you're below the
the elevation of the road um you know
[16:15] because of that you're kind of like a
low point. It's a relief point for
[16:18] drainage on the road. And so there might
be some just suggestions that I could
[16:21] make, we could make that if it happened
again, making sure the water goes around
[16:26] the house and not in the garage or in
the basement or whatever else.
[16:29] » Absolutely.
>> Thank you.
[16:30] » And the road just the road was paved, I
think, in Pendot paved Limekill Pike in
[16:35] 2017, and they only pave every 25 to 30
years, so you're safe. But um they uh
[16:42] they mill. So, um, before they pave,
they mill the road down. So, they're not
[16:48] putting asphalt on top of asphalt on top
of asphalt, like raising the road. So,
[16:52] it gives that impression like it might
might have been raised, but they do mill
[16:56] the road. We do too when we do our road
paving. So, we take several inches off
[17:00] of it before we put the new asphalt on.
Um, so that that's But it was around
[17:06] 2017 that Pendot [music] paved Limekill
Pike. The issue that my next door
[17:10] neighbor was talking about with that is
they made the asphalt into almost like a
[17:16] like a rounded curb. It's like this high
off of the grade of the street and it's
[17:23] like a it looks like it might be a good
idea, but it in practice of the rain, it
[17:27] like literally like ramps it into the
into the yard in the driveway.
[17:31] » So that was like he was like that this
didn't happen before where it sits. We
[17:35] can take a look like if like um when we
come out to visit we could take a look
[17:40] at that and it's PennDOT's road but we
can also make phone calls to Pendot to
[17:46] suggest them doing different things to
try to help out. And then my last
[17:50] comment would be so for work I'll get
calls where an older home got flooded
[17:56] out at being a lower point when they
just built a brand new development right
[18:01] across the street and they will say our
basement never flooded out and now like
[18:05] it looks like the groundwater has
nowhere to go because they built a brand
[18:08] new neighborhood and like obviously how
you going to prove that in the in the
[18:13] scenario of us living there for 2 years
but I just wanted to throw that onto the
[18:17] record of uh I've seen it plenty of
times at work. So, um, thank you.
[18:23] » Um, adding on to what Dan said and then
I had just one last question. Um,
[18:28] there's also instances where he's told
me about clients where the rainwater is
[18:32] so significant on the property, the
front property where the main drain is
[18:36] that it causes the yard to sink and
effectively damages the main drain pipe.
[18:41] Um, which you get perks having a husband
who's in the plumbing industry and he's
[18:46] like camered our line and made sure that
everything's good. Um, we don't have any
[18:50] surrounding trees that could possibly
have roots come into our line. We took
[18:54] out the biggest one that was anywhere
near it. Um, and so like that would be a
[18:59] concern as well that if the if over time
if the rain is not mitigated off of our
[19:04] lawn and it's just kind of coming off of
the street and onto our lawn, whether
[19:08] it's one of a 100redyear storm or
greater than or just standard rain
[19:14] coming off of the street continually
with no storm drains or anything like
[19:18] that that it could potentially incur a
substantial cost um to us and the
[19:24] surrounding neighborhood. My question
would be if Thank you, Chief, for
[19:29] providing the clarity. Um, I know that
in the medical world, it's very easy for
[19:34] things to appear one way and then they
really are a different way. It's my job
[19:38] as a social worker to clear those
confusions up a lot of the time. Um,
[19:42] would it be a realistic
action step that if we see that happen
[19:47] in the future where the salt bags, I
think you called them,
[19:51] » salt socks.
>> Salt suck. Okay.
[19:53] » Salt sock. It sounds good. Um,
[laughter]
[19:56] if a salt sock is coming into the road,
blocking storm drains or redirecting
[20:02] water onto the properties of us that are
beneath the construction site, would it
[20:06] be a an appropriate action step to call
the non-emergent 911 and ask that it be
[20:13] moved so that way the rain can go in the
appropriate channels? Um, that would be
[20:18] my only ask. Like if something's where
it shouldn't be and it's causing damage,
[20:22] if we could n it.
>> I'd say the rationale to call would be
[20:26] that it's blocking the roadway and could
cause an accident. So the call still
[20:30] happens, whatever the outcome would be.
>> That's why I was confused. The cop that
[20:35] the police officer sitting there that's
why it looked kind of intentional, but
[20:39] I'm not trying to I didn't see it
happen, but just it felt like why why
[20:44] leave
>> just to defend even though the chief
[20:46] doesn't want me to. the Upper Dublin
Police Department. Um, those silt socks
[20:51] are very heavy, especially when there's
water in there. So, the police officer
[20:55] would not have been able to by himself
move it,
[20:58] » right? Like it would need like
construction equipment to do it. So, if
[21:02] you saw it during a storm, you could
call, but like the the logistics of
[21:07] getting someone out there in the middle
of a storm to move it might not be
[21:10] possible either. And I'm just speaking
for
[21:14] someone who I don't know, right? Just
the logistics of if there's no one on
[21:19] site in a construction vehicle, it would
the response time. I don't even know if
[21:23] the police would have someone they could
call that would be able to get out
[21:26] there. Public works. All right. For
public works might be able to do it.
[21:30] » Well, life is complicated. Life has in
our country has become complicated. Um,
[21:36] you know, back in the 80s and 90s, life
was much simpler. Um, even for local
[21:41] government. um back in the 80s and 90s a
police officer probably would try to
[21:47] move that or public works would come
with a backhoe and move it out of the
[21:52] road. Um now um because of the society
that we live in um very latigious
[21:59] society very um in insuranceminded
society um what happens with those
[22:05] construction sites is um the township
this in this case it would be upper
[22:10] Dublin Township they have emergency
contacts.
[22:14] So it um normally what happens is
something like that happens, the
[22:18] township has to call the emergency
contact for that development project and
[22:24] they have to respond. Um I don't you
know how long it takes them to respond?
[22:29] Did Upper Dublin call them? I don't know
all those details, but that's how it
[22:32] works in Horscham. If one of our
employees goes and moves that, then
[22:38] workers comp gets involved
>> and then they start asking us questions.
[22:44] Why did you have your staff do that? Now
you have an injured employee. So now all
[22:48] of a sudden we have a workers's comp
insurance company that gets involved. So
[22:53] again, it it's so it gets so life is
complicated. Um so uh we do the best we
[23:01] can. Um, but that's the process we
follow in Horscham with the new
[23:04] development project is we have emergency
numbers and contact numbers and when
[23:08] something like that happens, our police
have them, our fire company, our public
[23:12] works, our code enforcement, and they
make those phone calls and says, "Hey,
[23:15] get someone out here right away and get
your silk sock back on your property."
[23:20] Um, is how it works in the 2026. Um,
1986, our people would have just moved
[23:28] it. [laughter]
Um but um but uh you know you you talk
[23:33] about your uh your plumbing pipe and
stuff and um you know sinking and stuff
[23:38] like that. Um it's it's
I I don't want to say the joys of home
[23:43] ownership, but it's it's all about
insurance and and Dan, you probably know
[23:49] like you know you got to check your
homeowners insurance of what they cover
[23:52] and what they don't cover. And most of
the time, basic homeowners insurance
[23:56] does not cover that line from the house
to the street. So that's an additional
[24:01] coverage that you have to have to
protect yourselves. So um it's
[24:06] » I tell people about it every day.
>> Okay. [laughter]
[24:10] » Um what would be an appropriate amount
of time to expect something like that to
[24:14] be moved? Like in within what time frame
would it be? Like I want to give people
[24:19] grace. Like we get grace from God. I
want to give people grace. So what is an
[24:25] appropriate time frame that we could
expect something like that to happen? I
[24:29] know that it's not in Horscham Township.
You can't speak for it on a official
[24:33] capacity, but within Horscham
on construction sites, what is a
[24:38] reasonable time for that to be
remediated so that way we could apply
[24:42] that in situations moving forward?
>> I I mean in this situation it was
[24:48] Thursday night at like 6:00. If it was
in Horscham, calls would have been made
[24:52] that night and I would expect the next
morning at some point the next day a
[24:56] contractor would be out there moving it.
Now, if it was in blocking traffic,
[25:00] right, that might, you know, hey, no, we
can't wait. You've closed the road here.
[25:04] We got bigger issues. They might have
been able to get someone out there, but
[25:07] again, it's based on the contractor. So,
giving grace, I would say the next day
[25:11] for something like that because for a
contractor, it's not a big deal, right?
[25:15] For us sitting in the room, it would be
a big deal to move that. But for all
[25:18] intents and purposes, that's any of
these time frames is essentially well
[25:22] after the rain has conceivably stopped.
>> Yeah. Yeah. They're not coming out in
[25:25] the middle of the storm 30 minutes later
to move it. It's likely that no one's
[25:30] that close that's going to be able to
get there. And um you know, I was
[25:34] driving around Blue Bell, not right
there, and there was roads closed
[25:37] nowhere near construction because the
area was flooded. So, um there's also
[25:44] that to keep in mind that the logistics
of someone even getting there depending
[25:47] on how bad it was. Yeah.
[25:52] » But again, give your names and number
>> to Dennis and we can set something up.
[25:57] » Thank you very much.
>> All right. Thank you.
[26:03] Other
[26:08] questions or comments from the public
while
[26:17] uh next item up is for the approval of
the list of checks. Any commentary on
[26:22] this beforehand?
I move to approve the list of checks in
[26:27] all funds from August 21st, 2026 to
August 26, 2026 [music] in the amount of
[26:33] $244,371.76
[26:38] and further move to authorize payment of
seam. Second been moved and seconded.
[26:44] This is a voice vote. All those in
favor, please say I. I. Any opposed?
[26:49] honestly.
Uh, next item up is to render a decision
[26:54] on the Ross Eve Corporation Kurov Ernest
Defavic 1026 Lime Kilm Pike conditional
[27:00] use application 26-06-CU.
[27:06] Oh, I I had a note. Turn it over to Mr.
Walco.
[27:08] » Thank you, Madam President. Uh as you
recall, council held a public hearing on
[27:11] this conditional use application at the
uh last uh public meeting and at this
[27:16] time this uh decision is now before the
board. I'd uh make a recommendation
[27:23] uh for a motion that the board grant the
conditional use application uh with the
[27:28] following conditions. Uh first, that the
applicant comply with all testimony
[27:31] exhibits presented by the applicant at
the hearing on the application unless
[27:35] otherwise amended by uh councel. The two
that the applicant comply with all
[27:41] provisions of all statutes, laws,
regulations, rules, codes, and
[27:45] ordinances of United States, the
Commonwealth, Horscham Township, and any
[27:48] other municipal agency having
jurisdiction, including the uh D and the
[27:52] Horscham Water and Sewer Authority.
Three, that the applicant submit a
[27:56] corridor management plan deemed
satisfactory to the Horscham Township
[27:59] Engineer. four that the applicant comply
with all applicable requirements of land
[28:04] development plan approval for the
property uh as established by the
[28:08] township and as applicable and comply
with the Horian Township zoning hearing
[28:13] board decision 257 which is again
relevant to this project. So those would
[28:17] be the four conditions um that would be
subject to a motion to grant the
[28:21] approval.
[28:25] Any other questions or comments from
anyone on council? Or do we have a
[28:29] motion?
[28:32] » I move to approve the conditional use
application for
[28:37] Rossi. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
Corporation Care of Ernest Stefc 1026
[28:42] Limekilm Pike 26-06-CU.
[28:47] » Second.
>> Moved and seconded. This is a roll call
[28:50] vote.
>> Mr. McCarti, how do you vote?
[28:53] » I. Dr. Patterson, how do you vote? I.
>> Miss Thompson, how do you vote?
[28:56] » I.
>> Miss Chunky, how do you vote?
[28:58] » I.
>> And Miss Staff, how do you vote?
[29:00] » I.
>> Motion passes unanimously.
[29:05] » Next item up is to consider a resolution
approving financing by the Horscham
[29:10] Industrial and Commercial Development
Authority to provide funding for the
[29:13] Gratz College project.
>> Just a quick explanation um because
[29:18] people might be wondering why our
authority is providing funding for Gratz
[29:23] College. So our um industrial and
commercial development authority is set
[29:28] up by state law. Um ours was set up in
1978
[29:32] and uh it follows um the state
industrial and commercial development
[29:37] authority laws as well as the economic
development laws of the state and uh
[29:42] these authorities and the state laws
were set up to provide economic
[29:46] development opportunities across the
state. Um and so our authority has the
[29:54] legal authority to provide for taxexempt
um interest rates um low interest rate
[30:01] loans for projects across the
Commonwealth um not just Horscham
[30:05] Township. And as you know we've done
others in the past. Our authority has
[30:09] done for Gwennet Mercy. Um, this one for
Gratz College, as we all know, is in
[30:15] Sheltonham Township currently. Uh, they
are relocating to Lower Marian Township
[30:21] and have um an economic uh academic uh
facility that they have to construct
[30:28] down in Lower Marian and Ardmore. Um,
and they are looking for um tax exempt
[30:34] funding and low interest rate funding to
for the project. So, our authority met
[30:39] in on August 12th. They had a public
hearing um and then followed by a public
[30:45] meeting and they have [clears throat] um
voted to authorize up to $6 million of
[30:51] funding uh to Gratz College. Again, we
are we are uh the our authority is a
[30:58] middle bypass. There's no there's no um
financial hardship on us. It's not us
[31:06] taking out a $6 million loan. It's not
$6 million passing through us. It's all
[31:12] done through the state laws, their
economic uh state laws, the IRS code um
[31:18] that provides provides Gratz College
then to go get this taxexempt um
[31:24] financing. So, uh nothing's on our
sheets um our audit sheets or anything.
[31:30] It doesn't hurt the township. If Gratz
College doesn't pay back the loan, we're
[31:33] not involved with that. It doesn't hurt
us in any way with our credit rating or
[31:38] bond rating. So, um staff recommendation
is that you also um approve this
[31:46] funding.
>> Are there any questions or comments from
[31:50] anyone on council or do we have a
motion?
[31:55] I move to adopt the resolution as
proposed approving issuance by the
[32:00] Horscham Industrial and Commercial
Development Authority of its revenue
[32:04] notes in a principal amount not to
exceed $6 million for Gratz College.
[32:10] » Second moved and seconded. This is also
a roll call vote.
[32:14] » Mr. McCarti, how do you vote? I.
>> Dr. Patterson, how do you vote?
[32:17] » I.
>> Miss Thompson, how do you vote?
[32:19] » I.
>> Miss Chunky, how do you vote?
[32:21] » I.
>> And Miss Laf, how do you vote?
[32:22] » I. Motion passes unanimously.
[32:28] » Um, next item up is to review the zoning
hearing board applications to be heard
[32:32] in September. There are two this
evening.
[32:36] » Uh, yes. Uh, your first one um is a
business commercial. It's located in our
[32:42] R six uh zoning district um retirement
prosperity group at 424 Dresser Road. I
[32:49] won't go into a introduction because
their council here is tonight. Mr.
[32:54] Serria is going to present their
application to you this evening.
[32:58] » Thank you very much. Uh yes, my name is
Rob Sia from Elliot Greenleaf on behalf
[33:03] of the applicants uh Lisa and Daniel
Baram and their their company uh
[33:08] Retirement Prosperity Group. I am joined
tonight uh by the applicant Lisa as well
[33:12] as the architect on the project Jeff
Famma as well as the engineer Jun Pac.
[33:17] Um the application's pretty
straightforward. Uh we're proposing a
[33:20] 750 foot uh square foot addition uh to
the existing non-conforming structure.
[33:26] Uh and that's to accommodate ADA
compliant restrooms. Uh what I call a
[33:30] conference room, but it's really a
larger uh receptionist area to greet
[33:34] clients as they come in and as well as
converting the existing barn on the
[33:38] property into an additional uh kind of
office meeting space, not necessarily
[33:42] offices themselves. Um due to the the
site uh and the various setbacks and the
[33:48] widening of the road, it's an extremely
narrow building envelope. It's
[33:51] approximately 15 feet deep, which is why
the the structure is non-conforming. Um
[33:56] so in order to accommodate the uh the
proposed addition, we're expanding
[34:01] laterally and then slightly into the
rear yard setback. And that's mainly for
[34:04] those bathrooms. Um because of that,
we're requesting three points of relief.
[34:09] The first is to um to expand into that
rear yard setback. The second one is to
[34:14] reduce the number of required parking
spaces um because of the the conversion
[34:18] of the barn and the additional square
footage. The parking calculations um in
[34:22] our opinion are are a little high um
based on the number of employees, the
[34:26] fact that they usually only see one or
two clients at a time. We're proposing
[34:29] 18 spaces. Um so we would we a sea of
parking as is and we don't anticipate
[34:34] needing any more parking than there
currently is even though we are adding
[34:37] additional spots already. And then
additionally, because it's an existing
[34:41] um non-conforming, there's a provision
in the code that allows you to expand up
[34:45] to 25%. Um we're requesting to expand to
28.3% and part of that also is uh as a
[34:52] result of the additional square footage
from the barn. Um so we're here tonight
[34:55] to answer any questions that you may
have. Um and of course we we'd love a
[34:59] letter of support, but if the board
council decides to stay neutral, that's
[35:02] that's acceptable as well.
council
[35:08] was recently there on a tour. So, um I
know I think your husband or you were
[35:14] there in the hospital with my son.
[35:19] » It's okay.
>> So, I know they're very familiar with
[35:21] the property.
>> Um and the staff recommendation on this
[35:25] one, Mr.
>> This um staff recommendation would be
[35:30] neutral. Um, and if they do get as a if
they do get their variances, they would
[35:36] be back in front of you with some type
of level of land development, whether
[35:40] it's a waiver, minor, or full, but it
they would be back in front of you. But
[35:46] the staff's recommendation would be
neutral.
[35:50] » Well, in alignment with that.
[35:56] » All right. Thank you.
[36:12] Thanks.
[36:22] » Okay.
[36:25] Next item up is Benjamin and Nicole
Hoover, 322 West Morland A.
[36:30] » The next one is a residential and our R4
zoning district. Um they they they
[36:35] jumped ahead a little bit um and and got
in their um basketball court before u
[36:41] they knew um about um zoning and and um
fig and we figured out that there was an
[36:48] impervious coverage issue. So, this
isn't a scale um but this is what they
[36:53] submitted in their application. But you
can see the basketball court in the rear
[36:57] of the house um and that has been built
and it's an impervious coverage where
[37:04] they're allowed 25%.
Um and uh they would be at and are at
[37:11] 28.7%
with the basketball court. Um they have
[37:16] I don't know if it's up yet or not. Um
they aside from this zoning, they have
[37:20] um um put in a fence application for a
6-ft privacy fence in their rear yard. I
[37:26] don't know if that's done yet or not,
but unrelated to this application. It's
[37:30] just FYI. Also, you'll see in your
application um they did um hire an
[37:36] engineer, Protra Engineering. Um they
have committed [music] to um a uh
[37:42] seepage pit um uh designed engineered
designed um so I I they met um with
[37:52] Kelsey and and Mike Shinton and myself
and u we were on their property we met
[37:57] with them. You know, I I do in this case
feel that um they um just got ahead of
[38:05] things and nothing was intentional and
um that they're genuine in trying to
[38:12] correct their mistake by submitting a
zoning hearing board application by
[38:17] hiring an engineer. Um usually at this
percentage, as you know, uh the
[38:22] homeowners don't hire engineers. Um so
they've hired an engineer and um he's
[38:28] designing either a stone seepage bed
system or a surface stormwater storage
[38:34] area um to help with the impervious
coverage um um and I think the staff
[38:41] recommendation is neutral um with the
condition that um the storm water
[38:45] control feature is installed.
[38:50] » Any
questions, comments from council? Are we
[38:53] in agreement?
>> Yes.
[38:56] » Okay. All right.
[39:01] Uh, next item up is to review a request
for a waiver of land development from
[39:05] the Ukrainian American Sports Center,
one lower state road to construct a
[39:10] synthetic turf field 23-07-W.
>> As everyone is very familiar with the
[39:16] Ukrainian Club at lower state and county
line. Um, been in town a long time. just
[39:22] had their festival this past weekend
that I heard was a great success. Um so
[39:27] um they have done this in the past. Um
they've converted some grass fields to
[39:31] art, um synthetic turf, artificial turf,
whatever you like to call it. Um and
[39:36] they are looking to do it again to
convert some of grass fields to
[39:41] artificial synthetic turf. Um and in
Horscham we've always considered these
[39:46] projects even ourselves our own Horsesh
soccer association the Miracle Field
[39:51] Hatport Horscham School District they've
all been in front of you for a waiver of
[39:55] land development for um turf fields and
they are present this evening to review
[40:02] um your their request to get a waiver of
land development from you.
[40:08] So, if you want to just make sure that's
on.
[40:12] There you go. And just I I got your what
you sent us today. So, you just tell me
[40:17] to flip flat back and forth and just
explain your project and what you want
[40:22] to do.
>> Great. So, my name is Amanda Rose. I'm
[40:24] an engineer with Tarquette Sports
Design. Um, sorry.
[40:29] » Move the mic, too. It
>> Hello. Okay. Great. My name is Amanda
[40:34] Rose. I'm an engineer with Tarquet
Sports Design and um we're all familiar
[40:39] with Ukrainian Sports Center site. So we
have an existing conditions presentation
[40:44] up there and it's three grass sports
fields with existing sports lighting. Um
[40:50] you could change the
and as you can see we're going to turf
[40:54] we're proposing to turf two of the
fields and then use the top soil to
[40:59] raise the third field. Um we have
NPDS coverage already for this site and
[41:07] we are just looking for a waiver of land
development. Um same use.
[41:12] Um there is some pedestrian
access to the lower field and that is
[41:17] ADA compliant. It also connects to the
upper turf fields. There is a pathway
[41:22] around the field, bleacher pads, sports
lighting, and we have a path for um
[41:27] maintenance vehicles to access.
[41:33] » I think um one thing that I I know
internally at the staff and I brought up
[41:38] to Dan, do you guys want to introduce
yourselves too just so we know
[41:43] » who's sitting in front of us?
>> Sure. Uh my name is Joe in Piriali. I'm
[41:47] I'm a board member for the Philadelphia
Ukrainian Nationals, a volunteer and
[41:51] I'll let Mr. Nisher.
>> Yeah.
[41:53] » Uh introduce yourself as well.
>> Just share the space. [laughter]
[41:58] » Yeah. That's funny.
>> Does this work as well?
[42:03] » I'm Dan Nes. I I sit on the Philadelphia
Ukrainian Nationals board and the
[42:10] Ukrainian American Sports Center board
and um been all day, all weekend at the
[42:15] festival. Thank you for mentioning the
festival.
[42:18] » Um the one issue and I'll let Eric um
talk about the review letter, but I
[42:23] think at at the staff level is is this
um you mentioned about the trail and and
[42:30] stuff and it's called it's it's
mentioned in the Gilmore review letter
[42:34] where you you do all the ADA compliance
around the field. You had the but you
[42:40] end right here. And it suggested if if
you went
[42:47] full land development, you'd be required
under our land development code to take
[42:52] this to the driveway. So someone in a
wheelchair um could be dropped off here,
[42:58] get on the asphalt path um and get there
um to the spectator area or the
[43:06] sideline. Um, so, um, that's a
requirement in our land development
[43:13] ordinance and that was mentioned in our
engineers review letter that there's no
[43:18] connection there.
>> So, the club is planning on putting a
[43:23] pathway there. That will just be after
the turf fields are constructed, but
[43:27] they will be doing that. And the area
leading from the path that we show to
[43:32] the parking is already ADA compliant.
It's under 5% slope. So, we see no
[43:37] issues
with them.
[43:40] » Can you identify where that path is?
>> Um, so I actually have
[43:44] » another plan.
>> Are we able to like stick one on
[43:49] » I have to I don't know if it's on one of
these plans. Is it on one of these?
[43:53] » No. No. I just Okay.
>> Sorry.
[43:56] » Um,
>> I can try. I can try.
[43:59] » You like zoom in to just
>> Do we have the pointer? I guess the
[44:03] question is why do it afterwards and not
do it while the contractor who's putting
[44:07] all the other stuff's there.
>> Um
[44:10] » yeah, I I I think that's a kind of a to
be honest a continuity of of planning um
[44:17] type of operation. I came in as a
volunteer
[44:22] um when this project was under a
different design builder.
[44:28] um we weren't having a ton of um
successful progress. Um we spent um just
[44:37] an inordinate amount of time with the
conservation district. Um
[44:43] over a year um trying to get um our
permit in this respect. Um getting this
[44:52] financed and approved has really been
our attention. it was drawn to our
[44:56] attention in the Gilmore letter that we
need to make this connection. So, we did
[45:01] make the request uh that we get a plan
for that. Um and that is our intention.
[45:07] Um and the question was would we do it
after we would have target do it as part
[45:15] of this project? It's not part of these
plans that we've bied about for the last
[45:22] two years, but we have had them come in
and and create a new plan in order to
[45:28] have a path that fully extends. And it
would be our intention to have that
[45:33] these fields open with that plan that
that path completed.
[45:37] » So, I know it's not shown on this plan.
So, if I'm understanding you, if I'm
[45:42] understanding things, it's going to be
done. it just will be the last thing
[45:47] that is done with this project. So if
council um if council agrees to give you
[45:53] a waiver of land development, one of the
conditions of that will be that path
[45:58] continuing and finishing to the
driveway.
[46:01] » Yeah, we're we're fully comfortable and
committed to that. And um yes,
[46:07] » just a quick question. So is it going to
connect to the path that you're saying
[46:11] goes to the parking lot? It's going
right right to the driveway and driveway
[46:16] goes to the parking lot.
>> I guess someone
[46:19] » what she was saying is the slopes right
now allow it to be ADA compliant. The
[46:25] surface itself is not ADA compliant
until they put the trail in.
[46:29] » Does that make sense?
>> I think so. But do we
[46:33] is it Sorry. If there's a connection
directly to a parking lot versus
[46:38] directly to the to the driveway,
does that accomplish the same goal or it
[46:46] has to connect to
>> what driveway? Can you point I'm sorry.
[46:48] Can you show me what
>> this is? This is this is lower state
[46:51] road here. So, this is your driveway in
there. Parking lots over here.
[46:55] » There's another small parking lot, I
believe. Keep going
[47:00] up right there. Whoop. Nope. Isn't there
another small parking lot right next to
[47:04] the building there?
>> No. The um the the bridge right there
[47:08] goes over the little creek below right
there.
[47:11] » Yep.
>> There's a pathway on both sides of that.
[47:14] » There's a white barrier there. So, there
is a walkway there that's ADA compliant
[47:19] right now that goes right to the
driveway, right to the parking lot
[47:24] » and that would extend right right to the
turf. the um
[47:29] » I've directed parking during tournaments
before and I thought there was some
[47:32] handicapped parking
>> in that area. Is that
[47:36] » like for special events? Oh, it's grass.
>> Got it. Thank you.
[47:40] » Yeah.
>> And we did park on a grass festival.
[47:45] » So or they they would meet our ordinance
that they bring this trail out to the
[47:49] driveway. So someone in, let's just use
someone with their wheelchair could be
[47:53] dropped off here and then the car could
go park in the parking lot in the
[47:56] handicap and then pick them up, you
know, when they're done. As long as the
[48:01] wheelchair has that accessibility that
>> it, you know, as as it was mentioned,
[48:06] the slope is fine, but the surface is
not. And but they've already you you've
[48:12] agreed to put it in. So, you've agreed
to put that trail connection in, path
[48:17] connection into the driveway, and
that'll be a condition of their um
[48:25] your approval if if you pass the
resolution. That was one issue. I don't
[48:30] know if Eric, if there's any other
>> I mean, that was the this was our fourth
[48:34] review, so it really got narrowed down.
So, I think just the condition that they
[48:37] comply with our August 10th letter,
which includes that comment, is all you
[48:42] guys need to do. And then we'll make
sure at the end of construction that
[48:46] that path's in there.
>> So, and I want to confirm that as well
[48:49] that that path will be installed prior
to use of this field. Is that our
[48:55] understanding? Okay.
>> Yes.
[48:58] » I can Are we Are we still the way
question?
[49:01] » Okay. I have another question. I'm just
curious cuz you mentioned that they're
[49:05] going to take the um soil that's going
to get scooped up when you put the turf
[49:10] field down and move it and raise elevate
the other field. Is there any
[49:17] environmental engineering
questions, concerns of changing
[49:22] elevation and slope, etc., etc., on that
lot?
[49:26] » No. And and like they told you, they've
been through the conservation district
[49:29] for longer than they ever imagined it
would have taken. Um,
[49:33] » was it in relation to that? Is that what
that was about?
[49:36] » So, they need they need what you call an
MPDES permit, which is a environmental
[49:40] permit that D issues through the
conservation district. Um, so although
[49:44] they're raising it, they're not they're
this artificial turf fields act like
[49:48] impervious because the water goes right
through and right off. From a stormwater
[49:53] perspective,
they're not really changing disorder
[49:57] characteristics. A that slopes a little
higher, but they're not adding runoff
[50:01] and and these guys know the conservation
district probably made you change the CN
[50:06] numbers. So, you know, so they have
taken care of any kind of stormwater
[50:11] concerns through that process um with
raising that field.
[50:15] » Okay. But this stormwater cons concerns
really because of the increase in
[50:21] impervious coverage by the artificial
fields.
[50:23] » Correct. that that is the main driver of
the storm water on this project, not
[50:27] raising that field.
>> It's sort of almost identical to our
[50:32] horse and soccer association when they
put their artificial turf in. Uh they
[50:36] moved all the soil to one of their other
fields and they raised that field um as
[50:42] part of their project.
[50:46] They also needed an NPDS permit um to
for their project.
[50:53] And so those were you've already
received those then?
[50:55] » We have. Yes.
>> Okay.
[50:59] » So what will happen now is council's
next meeting is September 9th. Um the
[51:03] solicitor will prepare a resolution for
council to consider um the waiver
[51:08] approving the waiver at their September
9th meeting. Um based upon this
[51:13] discussion this evening. Um, in the
meantime, um, I can get a
[51:18] pre-construction meeting scheduled, um,
while we wait for September 9th to come
[51:23] and so we can have that scheduled and
ready to go right after, um, September
[51:28] 9th.
[51:31] » Great.
>> That's [laughter] great.
[51:33] » Thank you.
>> We're excited to start. Thank you.
[51:36] » Yeah. Thank you very much.
>> Yeah.
[51:39] » All right. Thank you very much.
>> Thank you.
[51:43] say perogi's for everybody, right?
[laughter]
[51:46] » I love me perogi.
[51:50] » Okay, so next item up is just to
announce that our next Horscham Township
[51:54] Council meeting will be held on
Wednesday, September 9th at 6:00 p.m. Uh
[51:59] farmers market is every Sunday, June
through October, 10 to 1 at the library.
[52:04] Horscham Restaurant Week is September
13th to the 18th. I believe there's
[52:09] already been some advertisements about
it on social media, so you can find the
[52:14] full list of participating restaurants
there. Carpenter Cross Bike Race is at
[52:21] Chestnut Creek Park September 19th, 8:00
a.m. to 400 p.m. And our eco event, eco
[52:28] event, tree giveaway, e-waste, and
shredding will take place at the
[52:32] municipal complex right here. Um,
October 3rd. Well, in the parking lot,
[52:37] not like here. Here. October 3rd, uh,
900 am to 11 am. And with that meeting,
[52:42] » and I would just say if you haven't been
to the Carpenter Park, um, and it's
[52:46] become, and I'll let maybe Dennis say a
few words about it, but it has become a
[52:51] destination bike race where we have
people from sometimes four to six
[52:56] different states coming to the race. Um,
Dennis started this um, and has done a
[53:02] great job uh, with it. And um but I
would encourage you when I I'm not I
[53:08] don't bike race. So when he first
started this um event um and I I saw all
[53:14] the yellow tape I was like what you know
um but I went and watched and it's
[53:19] really fun just to watch just to watch
the bike racers and doing their thing.
[53:24] But let Dennis say a few words. Yeah. So
um we're fortunate enough to be a part
[53:29] of the um Pennsylvania state um cycle
cross series. So that brings out a lot
[53:34] of people from uh different states
around us. It's always cool to see the
[53:39] heat map from when people register. It's
all the way from Connecticut down to um
[53:44] Lake Virginia area and uh for two years
in a row. I remember we had a gentleman
[53:49] from Colorado. Um he was here for work,
but he liked it so much that he timed
[53:55] his work to be here again the next year
so he could race in the race. And um
[54:00] it's really shaping up for this year.
We're really excited because we're very
[54:05] very fortunate to be able to have our
third
[54:10] um different race in a different park
which is like unheard of. So it's the
[54:15] trifecta this year and uh it's going to
be at Chestnut Creek Park and we're
[54:20] really looking forward to it and um it's
our eighth year so it's kind of crazy.
[54:25] I'm really looking forward to the 10th.
Um,
[54:29] but ju let's just hope that it's a nice
sunny day and the weather's nice.
[54:33] » And we appreciate the Hawks football
program. Uh, they're they're working
[54:36] with us and they're away that weekend.
So, um,
[54:40] » we appreciate them working with us.
>> Thank you for all the work you put into
[54:45] planning that. It's awesome.
>> All our kids. No, I'm kidding.
[54:50] » Well, maybe not. Not me. Um,
no, I meant I'm not kidding because I
[54:54] will sign Henry up.
>> Oh, but I won't be here. Anyho
[54:57] [laughter]
[54:59] um okay and with that meeting is
journed.