[2:01] the king. [laughter]
>> Call our meeting to order with the
[2:05] pledge of allegiance. I pledge algiance
to the flag of the United States of
[2:09] America and to the republic for which it
stands, one nation under God,
[2:15] indivisible, with liberty and justice
for all for all.
[2:22] control the TVs. The first item was ICS.
Are we going to kind of skip over that?
[2:28] » Yeah, ICS um had a little delay this
morning. So, they're going to be here a
[2:31] little after 10. So, we'll do solid
waste and human services.
[2:35] » Hi, Josh.
[2:38] [clears throat]
[2:41] » All right. Good morning.
[2:47] Um so yeah this morning going to go
through I guess our proposed uh 2027
[2:52] budget.
Um
[2:55] we are I guess overall the budget is
coming in looking a little bit lower
[2:59] than it is in 2026.
Um so that's a positive. Uh don't have
[3:05] quite as many projects um in the hopper
this next year. Um we are looking at um
[3:11] having a solid waste assessment increase
of about 3% and I'll kind of get into
[3:15] that when we a little bit more when we
um go through our slide packet here. Um
[3:22] and then also uh tipping fees. We're
looking at adjusting them some which
[3:26] I'll get into. Uh we're looking at uh uh
proposing a slight increase to FTE for
[3:33] 2027 um to try to help cover um during
staff shortages that we've experienced
[3:40] uh during extended leaves. Um I've
attached our updated 10-year capital
[3:44] plan. Um
and we're continuing to plan for
[3:48] long-term uh regional demolition
landfill changes with that. And then uh
[3:54] at the end here I was going to discuss
uh our 2026 department reorganization um
[4:00] that we've been working on. Uh Mary's
put a lot of time into this um and
[4:06] putting a lot of time into just looking
at our department and uh going through
[4:10] uh starting a reorganization process
with that. So, um maybe since Mary's
[4:15] here, we can we'll jump into maybe do
that first um part of it first and then
[4:19] I can come back and go through my um
budget. But if you go to the last I
[4:25] think the last slide
in my packet um it shows our uh
[4:35] proposed organizational chart. Um,
and kind of what uh what kicked this off
[4:42] was we had uh um a new supervisor level
position that we had budgeted for last
[4:47] year and once we started working on
filling that position realized we should
[4:52] take a look at our entire department and
make sure you know the different staff
[4:55] positions are aligned appropriately
through that. Um, so working with Mary
[4:59] and working with DDA, we went through
that process of um, update updating job
[5:04] descriptions, uh, making sure they u job
titles kind of fit and have a clear
[5:11] outline of what the job and duties
entail. And then also uh through that
[5:17] process looking at um expanding our uh
um adding another level of operator
[5:23] position um just for some of the more
advanced equipment that we operate at
[5:27] our facility. Um but pretty much what we
did here was look at separating out you
[5:32] know a portion of our staff under the
recycling or sustainability branches and
[5:36] a portion under the the solid waste
operation type branches. um with this
[5:41] process and looking at the job
descriptions um some of the descriptions
[5:46] um we'll be look would be looking at uh
grade increases and to better align with
[5:51] the um um the market and also the
county's internal structure as well. So
[5:59] um
so I don't know if Mary if you have
[6:03] anything
>> Josh could I just comment on on
[6:06] something? So actually this discussion
happened when we were in union
[6:10] negotiations and they talked about how
um the highway was broken down into um
[6:16] categories of what they operate and
solid waste did not have that. So this
[6:22] came as a request to look at the
positions.
[6:25] » Yep. Yeah. I don't know that there's
anything else that I would necessarily
[6:29] add to it. Um just that you know a lot
of time and effort went into looking at
[6:34] the differences in um the other
counties. um internal structure, making
[6:38] sure that we were aligned. Um hopefully,
you know, this will be something that'll
[6:42] um work for Josh for years to come. So,
um
[6:47] yeah, I don't think there's anything
necessarily that I I think we need to
[6:50] add to what you've already said.
>> So, you're looking to add the two
[6:55] temporary positions. Is that right? Part
time. Um so that'll be I'll discuss I
[7:00] guess that as portion as will go through
my budget but that's you know that'll be
[7:03] a ask for next year but um
>> and those are to fill in for uh family
[7:09] paid leave. So in other words it might
be a wash then
[7:12] » yeah so I yeah we can I guess we can
jump into that now too. So, we got uh
[7:17] like this year for instance, we had
three full-time employees that were out
[7:20] on leave at the same time and it really
impacts our impacted our operation where
[7:25] we're not able to um do a lot of the
extras such as, you know, getting our
[7:29] grinder in use and having enough to
really fill our facility and and catch
[7:33] up on these different projects. So, um
just trying to brainstorm some possible
[7:38] solutions. I' I've thought if we could
get a temporary positions, you know,
[7:42] they're limited to 67 days and if
needed, you know, we could have them on
[7:46] kind of on standby to fill in either,
you know, if we have le running to
[7:50] leaves or if we, you know, are between
positions with, you know, people
[7:54] resigning or trying to fill positions
too. So, um, we did kind of in the
[7:59] budget plan for the worst case scenario
showing, you know, if we, you know,
[8:03] budgeting everything, but in all
likelihood if we would fill these
[8:07] positions, uh, we'd be coming in under
budget. Um, just cuz they would be kind
[8:13] of filling in when people aren't aren't
uh being staffed. And also, you know, if
[8:18] people are going out on any
uh Minnesota leave, you know, that
[8:23] that's mostly reimbursed through that
program, too. So,
[8:28] That led to one of my questions too
because I see the salary and wages are
[8:31] going from 667 to 836. That's 20%.
>> Yeah. So, the um I was kind of looking
[8:40] at that a little bit and the um
[8:47] with the uh
one thing that happened in the in this
[8:52] year's budget is we combined regular and
part-time all into regular. So, that you
[8:57] know makes that look a little bit
higher. And then also we uh um
[9:04] went down a little bit in on recycling.
So I think factoring everything
[9:10] everything in um between the two
recycling and the solid waste budget you
[9:13] know we were looking at about 14% is
what I had come up with. So cuz our
[9:19] recycling portion had came down a little
bit.
[9:23] » I see that now your preliminary last
year was
[9:28] your 26 was 777
like that. And then also this was these
[9:36] were uh you know the all the budget or
the HR numbers you know with payroll and
[9:42] uh benefits you know that was done
earlier this summer. We've had some you
[9:46] know different staff transitions as
well. So that will bring those numbers
[9:50] down even further. Um just where where
people are currently on steps and
[9:55] grades. Uh
um so I think by the time we get to the
[9:59] final budget numbers, you know, we'll be
really close to our budget will be
[10:03] balanced once we factor all that in even
with these changes. But um the uh yeah
[10:10] with the budget, you know, part of this
study, you know, with this
[10:13] reorganization that had some to do with
that with the the grades and you know, a
[10:19] lot of our people are still low on their
steps, you know, so they're, you know,
[10:22] getting a step increase and a cost of
living increase every year. So it
[10:26] doesn't take long to add up to them
increases.
[10:30] So, we
lock out any changes to the budget for
[10:35] personnel once we give you guys the
preliminary budget in August until after
[10:41] the um the preliminary levy is set and
we get our final numbers for um pay or
[10:48] for benefits. Then we'll recalculate
them one more time and that's the number
[10:52] we'll use in the TNT meeting. and then
we'll calculate one final time before
[10:56] that meeting in December where you
approve the final bill. But the previous
[11:00] practice was anytime something changed
then payroll would update IFS which
[11:05] means none of the reports I would give
you were accurate and for budgeting
[11:09] purposes we don't need real data in
there. We need real data in there a
[11:14] couple of times throughout the process.
So as Josh is saying some of these
[11:18] things have already changed. they have
and they'll be they'll be adjusted twice
[11:22] more before um you'll see a final uh
budget for approval.
[11:27] [snorts]
>> Hey Josh, I was just looking at a line
[11:31] item for equipment repair. Um it's it
goes up fairly significantly. Is there a
[11:38] reason? Is it because we have more
equipment now that or is it because the
[11:43] equipment is more specialized? It takes
a certain amount of technical aspects to
[11:47] to repair Were you looking at 391?
>> Um I am
[11:55] 392.
>> Okay. Um well both 39 391 that's I guess
[12:00] I'll just start with that one I guess
with the equipment repair that had a
[12:03] significant jump um in the actual spent
last year and then also what I'm
[12:07] budgeting for next year and 392 I don't
think was quite as steep. Um, but a lot
[12:13] of that is actually has to do with how
we've been coding some of our um,
[12:19] repairs. A lot of our uh, oil changes
and regular maintenance, we used to have
[12:24] that coded under 6597,
which is motor, fuel, and lube, and
[12:29] we've started to um, move that over into
that equipment repair category. Oh,
[12:34] » so if you notice like under the 391
um 6563,
[12:40] no, sorry.
3 916567.
[12:45] You know, we have for like 2025, for
instance, we budgeted 75,000 and we only
[12:51] spent um 35,000. So, a lot of that kind
of just got shifted into that other
[12:56] category.
>> Um but we have I mean that that
[12:59] partially explains it, but we have had
you know we've seen increasing repair
[13:04] costs too. Um our grinder does you know
impact that. we have additional repair
[13:09] costs and next year we're actually
budgeting to do some work on our dozer
[13:13] which is why that number is even up a
little bit higher for next year. So,
[13:24] um, so I guess just continuing to walk
through, uh,
[13:29] kind of hit on a couple of the items
here in my that I was going to bring up
[13:32] on the walking through the budget
report. Um, again, which with our
[13:36] special assessment, which is under the
391 5051, again, we'd be looking at
[13:42] increasing that by 3%.
um
[13:46] our uh fees and our out of county fees
in uh plan to have um increasing that
[13:53] slightly uh due to um just increasing
trends and also adjustments to the
[13:59] tipping fee. Um
jumping down to our um our main part of
[14:07] our budget, our main expenditures with
our tipping fees and hauling and
[14:10] loading. So that's what we end up paying
to Pulk County. So that's at 62 391 6256
[14:17] and 6259.
Um I did keep them relatively stable for
[14:22] next year. We've been coming in a little
bit under budget the last couple years.
[14:26] So um just keeping that flat. I think we
can account for any increases we might
[14:31] see um if we have any tipping fee
increases this year. And we actually
[14:35] have a advisory board meeting tomorrow
where we should learn, you know, if we
[14:38] have uh if we're going to be seeing tip
fee increases next year or not. But we
[14:43] should have enough room in there. Um, we
kind of touched on the equipment was one
[14:48] I wanted to highlight. We touched on
that. Um, and then just with the
[14:53] equipment purchases, uh,
you know, we have under 391 and 392, you
[14:59] know, 391 the equipment purchases is a
little bit down from last year. Again,
[15:03] it just kind of depends on whether we're
purchasing recycling or solid waste
[15:08] equipment on on where they fluctuate.
So, I'll kind of touch on the equipment
[15:12] a little bit further here. Um,
we uh under 391, the equipment we're
[15:20] looking at for next year, uh, just we'll
have some some continued container
[15:25] replacements. Uh, we're due to have a
forklift replaced, a backhoe replaced,
[15:30] and we're also looking at a skid steer
uh, snow pusher replacement for 391.
[15:37] Um, under our 392 equipment purchases,
uh, again, we're looking at some
[15:42] containers, uh, we're due to have one of
our packer truck recycling trucks
[15:47] replaced. Uh, looking at, um, pallet
jack, and then also,
[15:54] uh, with the one organics grant that we
received this year, we'll be purchasing
[15:57] some organics equipment, um, that will
get Cass County up and running for their
[16:03] organics program. So, that will be
outlined in the budget. Um and then also
[16:08] I have outlined in my budget for
equipment next year um to do some
[16:13] recycling totes and a trauma screener
and them two items would be grant
[16:17] dependent. So if we didn't get grant
funding for those then we wouldn't be
[16:21] moving forward with those projects. So,
and uh they were outlined kind of if you
[16:27] see in on the revenue side in their 392
budget um in 2027 we're looking at uh
[16:35] and that's under 5306
we're looking at $750,000
[16:40] for um state grants coming in. So again,
that was for the $500,000 grant that we
[16:46] already just received from the state.
Um, and then looking at possibly trying
[16:51] to get another $250,000 grant from the
state for for this dramal and and uh
[16:56] recycling equipment. So,
>> well, state grants have come down quite
[17:01] a bit.
>> Yeah. From last year, the last two
[17:05] years, you know, we had, you know, kind
of all these other projects we've been
[17:08] working on were all kind of bunched
together in there. [snorts] So, you
[17:12] know, our reuse project, our organ big
organics project that we had, you know,
[17:16] they're them are, you know, have been
completed or will be completed. So,
[17:20] they're coming out of the budget. So,
>> Josh, just curious, why did you switch
[17:26] out the organics to small containers?
>> Um, so like out in front of the
[17:31] building.
>> Yeah.
[17:32] » Um, just to try to keep keep it emptied
more frequently. Okay.
[17:36] » You know, keep it a little bit cleaner.
[17:41] Um, say Josh, I have a question. Um, as
far as containers, like for your, um,
[17:48] like the recycling, the regular garbage
and whatnot, um, are we taking those or
[17:54] is your whoever your maintenance person
is rebuilding the the containers at all,
[18:00] the metal containers, so that we can
reduce the cost of purchasing new? And I
[18:04] I was looking at them the other day when
I was there and it seems like it's
[18:08] extremely thin metal on the skids and
when you tip it, I mean there's a lot of
[18:12] abrasion there. If we could start using
heavier duty materials to rebuild them,
[18:18] that would be great.
>> Yeah. So, we uh with our recycling
[18:22] containers, we definitely go through all
winter and we're replacing floors and
[18:26] replacing steel. Um, we still try to
budget for, you know, a dozen or so
[18:31] containers every year just to keep
updating our fleet. Um, but we have
[18:34] quite a few in the back that we, you
know, during our slow times of the year
[18:38] we're constantly repairing. Um, and
yeah, for our our transfer station bins,
[18:43] uh, we've actually started to use like
some of the smaller bins and they're a
[18:46] lot more beefier and heavier duties. So,
I think, you know, we're starting to we
[18:50] got a good kind of a good product that
we're getting replace replacing some of
[18:54] the older ones with now. So,
>> great. Thank you. Um,
[18:58] » but yeah, we do, you know, we do spend a
lot uh a lot of time and going through
[19:02] them bins and repairing what we can. So,
>> smaller containers, you just have to
[19:06] have staff empty them more frequently.
So, it's going to take more staff time.
[19:10] So, it I mean there's pluses and minuses
to both ways of doing it, I guess. Thank
[19:15] you.
>> You mentioned the skid steer for pushing
[19:18] snow.
I mean, is there can equipment be used
[19:22] for more than one item instead of
something? Is that dedicated just for
[19:26] pushing snow or what?
>> No, we have we have two skid steers in
[19:29] our fleet. One's pretty much loading
recycling, you know, loading our
[19:33] recycling up all the time. The other one
we use for going out collecting bales um
[19:37] as a backup and pushing snow, too. So,
they get uh it's not just for pushing
[19:43] snow,
>> keeping it going year round with other
[19:45] uses. Just change you I do that myself.
Just change the front end and stuff like
[19:50] that.
>> Yep.
[19:51] And this would just be again for what
I'm budgeting is this the snow pusher we
[19:55] have is I think probably 15 to 20 plus
years old. So um just looking at getting
[20:01] that updated. So,
[20:06] uh, let's see with the
[20:14] Yeah, I guess just the other items in
the 392 budget that I was just going to
[20:17] highlight, you know, for the most part
and, you know, didn't really have too
[20:21] terribly many big changes throughout the
budgets um, from year-over-year. Uh we
[20:27] just had uh just to highlight you know
we have again this organics grant under
[20:31] our professional and technical services
and uh our um building acquisition
[20:38] construction and site site site
improvements under 392 you know that's
[20:43] accounting for that reuse reuse project
or sorry organics project for next year.
[20:50] Josh, on on a small scale here, I
noticed in the 392 towards the bottom,
[20:55] you've got sales tax at $10,000
where it's been zero the last couple
[21:00] years. [sighs]
>> Yeah, that's uh just with some of the
[21:05] the programs that we're starting, you
know, just kind of anticipating us, you
[21:09] know, possibly having to get into paying
sales tax on certain things. So, you
[21:14] know, by the end by my final budget, we
might kind of take that down as just
[21:18] kind of a a buffer in there in case we
end up needing it. So,
[21:21] » So, I'm assuming you're collecting sales
tax from the end user.
[21:25] » Yep.
>> Thank you.
[21:34] » Um, going back down to our um I think
it's page 11.
[21:42] um on the packet. So, it's just kind of
our the whole summary. Um
[21:48] keep going down, I guess.
Up one more page 11 there. Yep. So,
[21:54] we're looking at uh just the overall
budget. You can kind of see where the
[21:58] budgets have been um the last few years.
again our preliminary budget uh for this
[22:04] year uh looking at coming down a little
bit from last year and then um we were
[22:11] having showing expenditures a little bit
higher than revenues but I think as I
[22:15] mentioned I think as we get closer to
final HR numbers going in there um or
[22:20] payroll numbers going in there it'll be
closer to zero if not uh back to the
[22:24] positive side. So then the other thing
just to highlight we or a couple more
[22:29] things to highlight on that we have uh
um
[22:34] this will be the last year 2027 will be
the last year that we'll be repaying our
[22:38] landfill um cover project um that we've
been borrow borrowed from from the
[22:43] general fund. So 2027 will be the last
year for that. And then the bottom of
[22:48] that kind of the page there, we have our
trial balance. Just kind of gives us a
[22:52] snapshot of where we're at
year-over-year with with where we're at
[22:55] for reserves that we have. Um, so you
can see over the last couple years, it's
[22:59] been a, you know, positive trend into
into uh 2026 where we're currently
[23:05] sitting. So,
[23:08] going on the next couple slides, it's
just kind of a a budget uh picture that
[23:13] shows uh where our revenues are coming
from. Um it hasn't changed that much uh
[23:18] for the last few years. I have a couple
years of data in here. You know, 42% of
[23:23] our funding comes from the residential
assessment, 34 from the commercial
[23:27] assessment, about 7% from tip fees, 12%
from grant funding, and then kind of 5%
[23:35] makes up uh everything from the um sales
miscellaneous revenue that we get in and
[23:41] and a little bit of the levy that we get
in to meet our score score match
[23:46] requirements. So,
[23:53] And then our uh solid waste assessment.
Um going down to page 16. Again, this
[23:59] just shows you the breakout and a little
bit of history of where the solid waste
[24:02] assessments been. Um again, for this
next year, we'd be proposing a 3%
[24:06] increase. So the residential assessment
would go from $245 up to $252.
[24:13] And the minimum commercial assessment
would go from $36 up to $316
[24:19] um plus based on based on volume they
generate.
[24:23] Um
[24:26] tipping fees on the next sheet there. Uh
some of these numbers will change still
[24:33] continue to change and get refined um
before we do our final fee schedule
[24:38] review at the end of the year. But we
haven't uh increased our tipping fee. We
[24:42] didn't really increase our tipping fees
much last year and we're looking at
[24:45] making some adjustments to them um this
[snorts] upcoming year. So, uh for the
[24:50] most part, again to highlight, we are um
pretty much across the board besides our
[24:54] assessment, we're kind of on par lower
than um a lot of our surrounding
[24:59] counties. Um,
[25:05] and we might do some additional
diversion projects where we could help
[25:09] lower some of the costs that we have
too. So, one of the things we're looking
[25:13] at is possibly trying to recycle
sheetrock and drywall, which uh we just
[25:18] going to put that in our final tipping
fee schedule where we could have a
[25:21] little reduced rate for accepting that
material. So,
[25:29] and then uh towards the end there, I
have my capital improvement plan. Um I
[25:34] kind of walk through the equipment that
we're looking for for this next year. Um
[25:42] again, couple piece of them items would
be grant dependent.
[25:47] And I think we're at a good place with
what we're kind of budgeting annually
[25:51] now um for either for moving forward uh
either with purchasing equipment or
[25:58] sitting that aside for reserves if we
don't have equipment to purchase um each
[26:02] of those years. Um onto our building uh
capital building plan. Um again we have
[26:08] our um remodel for the organics transfer
station on on slate for 2027.
[26:14] And then, you know, I think we still
need to be keep budgeting quite a bit of
[26:20] money into reserves over the next
several years. Um, if you notice in my
[26:24] capital plan for buildings out in 2032
and 2033, that's when I kind of put in
[26:30] some of them placeholders for, you know,
what's going to happen when we can't be
[26:34] burying our demolition anymore um on
sites. So, this doesn't assume any state
[26:41] funding, but you know, it kind of
outlines a path forward if we have to
[26:44] start transferring all our demolition
waste and what them costs could possibly
[26:48] look like. So,
>> would that cost include building a
[26:54] regional landfill then? Our our share.
>> This would not be a regional landfill.
[26:59] This would just be our cost if we wanted
to be able to transfer material out to a
[27:04] different, you know, a facility that's
not within our our regional scope. So,
[27:10] » so that would be an annual cost going
forward.
[27:13] » Yep.
[27:17] » That doesn't work. [laughter]
>> Oh, that number is huge.
[27:22] » Yeah. And then you get to the landfill.
I mean, we we'll have major landfill
[27:25] expenses coming up too, you know, in the
next when our landfills fill up in the
[27:29] next 7 to 10 years. Uh, you know, with
closure costs and and that was outlined
[27:34] under my the landfill plan there. So,
you know, again, this year we'll be last
[27:38] year repaying that uh 150,000 to the
general funds. So, again, moving
[27:43] forward, it's going to be imperative
that we're sticking money away to plan
[27:47] for these these changes down the road.
And I think where we're currently at
[27:51] with our budget, um I think we'll be in
a good place to to be doing that on
[27:55] future years here. So,
but you know, at the end of the day too
[28:00] with the landfill closure, I mean, the
state's been going to be pushing hard
[28:03] for closure costs to help counties
coming from, you know, either
[28:08] legislative action or bonding dollars.
So, you know, again, it's who knows if
[28:13] anything will get traction and go
through, but, you know, there are some a
[28:17] little bit of light that we can get
still get state funding for some of
[28:20] these projects and and really help our
long-term capital planning needs. So,
[28:26] So that would that would be my next
question, John. Is it even realistic to
[28:31] have that
demo facility even categorized in 2032?
[28:39] Like we have to deliver it out because
it ain't going to happen.
[28:43] I mean, it can't. I don't know how we
would do that every year.
[28:50] » Are you looking at the building like the
building plan
[28:52] » in the capital budget then like that?
[28:57] I think just what it I think what it
does it helps give us some guidelines
[29:00] for when we're going out and asking for
um state bonding dollars. You know,
[29:05] gives us a kind of a picture of what
we're looking at needing anyway. Um so
[29:09] it's helpful in that regards. But you
know, this is a working document. So,
[29:13] you know, there's always going to be
changes to it as well. But I think you
[29:17] know what I showed like in the building
plan um if we get to that 2020 32 2033
[29:24] and we don't have any state fund state
bonding dollars you know looking at
[29:28] having to to bond for you know our
future infrastructure needs. So,
[29:38] » we had a breakout session at last year's
annual conference and uh it was Santa
[29:44] County that gave a presentation and I
don't remember the exact figure but
[29:47] there was a very low amount of the
percentage of their waste that goes into
[29:53] landfills. You know, lot they truck off
a lot to be burned. Um and you know
[29:58] we're here we're forming a regional
um uh disposal group. I mean is it
[30:05] possible for to reach those kind of
numbers with the region?
[30:10] » Um well right now I mean in rough number
very rough numbers about a third of our
[30:14] MSW goes to the incinerator and gets uh
you know to get burned to get processed
[30:20] and and uh you know a lot of that just
is the type of material we're taking in.
[30:25] a lot of the, you know, depends on if
it's big and bulky and can go through
[30:29] that that process. But we're we're
shifting, you know, a fair amount of our
[30:32] waste over there. I think we can we can
make improvements by getting uh we don't
[30:37] really have the infrastructure right now
to get burnable waste over to from our
[30:41] north transfer station. So, that's where
we can um improve upon getting some of
[30:45] that over to our burnable or to the
incinerator. But, you know, I think as a
[30:50] region, I think we're definitely going
in the right direction with where we're
[30:53] at and where we're set up compared to um
the rest of the state. And then also
[30:58] with our push for organics, you know,
hopefully seeing that continue to grow
[31:02] and diverting a lot of that waste from
the the waist stream as well. So,
[31:07] » yeah, the less you can go to the
landfill, the better off we'll be in the
[31:11] long term.
And then even with our I mean even with
[31:15] our construction and demolition
material. I mean we're you know we're
[31:18] pulling out shingles, we're pulling out
concrete. We're starting to pull out
[31:21] clean lumber um with the you know the
projects that we've been coming in the
[31:26] hopper with or with this grinder with
the screeners. You know it's just
[31:30] continuing to be able to pull out more
material out of the demolition landfill
[31:34] as well to um make that process easier
down the road too. So,
[31:39] » so the clean lumber, are you putting
that at the mall where people just pick
[31:44] it up or what are you doing with it?
>> Um, so like right now we're separating
[31:47] out pallets and clean lumber. So that's
being turned into the colored mulch
[31:51] right now.
>> Oh,
[31:52] » but we also do pull some out that goes
up to the reuse center. Um, it's just
[31:56] kind of a
evolving process. We still got a long
[32:00] ways to go to I think there's a lot more
we can pull out of there. So,
[32:14] and yeah, I think that was about all I
had unless you guys have any other other
[32:18] questions. So,
[32:28] any questions on the assessments?
[32:38] I I don't have questions on the
assessments. I just do have a comment. I
[32:41] really don't want them to increase if we
don't have to. Um
[32:46] just need to I It's tough.
We knew this was going to be a tough
[32:52] year going in and probably next year is
going to be another tough year. Um, so
[32:58] I'm just trying to take it easy on the
taxpayer is basically what my goal is.
[33:03] Um, so
>> someone commented to me this weekend
[33:07] that they're seeing a lot more garbage
around the county. That has not been my
[33:11] experience. Has anybody else? [snorts]
>> No. I I think the the one thing I see is
[33:17] people aren't securing their stuff when
they're taking it to the landfill.
[33:21] » Oh, more to the transfer stations.
There's a lot of loose stuff laying
[33:24] alongside the ditches.
But you know that's just personal
[33:30] habits. You know
[33:34] I guess as a policy question um with
Josh this is kind of off it's off the
[33:40] budget topic but anyway um our reuse
center um is that open to anybody even
[33:48] if they are out of county or is it just
county residents only to take items?
[33:55] Um, typically we will have them, you
know, try to get them signed up for our
[33:59] out of county permits if we're taking
items. Um, some of that is, you know,
[34:03] hard to track like the rest of our
facility, but, you know, that's the
[34:06] intent is that we're just taking either
incount items or items that people are
[34:11] bringing that they're part of our permit
programs.
[34:13] » Well, what about people removing items
from the reuse center and taking them to
[34:20] say Wadina County?
>> Um, it's kind of the same. I mean, if
[34:24] people are coming into our facility,
they should really be,
[34:27] » you know, having that out of county
permit, but it's something we, you know,
[34:31] we really haven't put much time into
tracking or enforcing at this point. So,
[34:35] » I just heard a couple complaints from
from people that
[34:38] » they know that these people live out of
county and yet they're coming here and
[34:42] taking items from the reuse center. They
don't know if well, they know one of
[34:46] them lives in an apartment, so they
don't need a weed whip because their
[34:49] maintenance is done for them. So, you
know, the fear is that they're taking
[34:54] them, selling them, and profiting off of
our county taxpayers, and they they just
[35:00] do not think it's fair.
>> Yeah.
[35:04] » Everything diverted through the reuse
center saves us money.
[35:07] » Yes. I
>> taking things out of the reuse center,
[35:09] they're not costing us anything.
[35:14] » It would be really hard to
>> I [clears throat] know it would be. I'm
[35:17] just
>> I mean I
[35:18] » there's just some frustrations out there
that
[35:22] » um that are voiced occasionally. I'm
just continuing to voice them.
[35:27] » I did have an attendant at the North
Station ask me if I was a resident when
[35:30] I was dropping off some tires.
I appreciated that.
[35:36] I I did mention it was my wife's tires.
[laughter]
[35:41] Uh yeah, I mean we've had uh you know
our out of county permits have been
[35:45] continuing to get more and more of them
every year. So I think we're you know
[35:50] again our system isn't isn't perfect by
any means but I think we're making good
[35:54] strides on uh um capturing that out of
county out of county volumes. So, and we
[36:01] even did uh up at our north station this
summer, we even Bel Tramy County was
[36:06] wondering how many of their residents
maybe were coming down using our
[36:09] transfer station, especially on days
that their facilities are closed. So,
[36:13] our guys actually went out and were
doing some survey work up there and uh
[36:18] so, you know, they had a handful of
people that kind of turned away when
[36:21] they got questioned, but um for the most
part that was good results up there,
[36:25] too.
And that would be one way to do it. Just
[36:29] randomly, once or twice a year,
interview everybody that comes into the
[36:35] gate.
[snorts] You get a sampling of kind of
[36:38] roughly
>> how big of an issue it is
[36:42] » and it would slow them down, too.
>> Then again, it takes staff time to do
[36:47] that. So, I mean, it's just
>> do it once or twice a year.
[36:50] » It all just kind of stacks up.
>> Yeah. you on a slow day when they have
[36:55] time?
>> Yeah, random and just do it randomly.
[37:01] » All right.
>> Anything else, Josh?
[37:05] » All right. Thanks.
>> All right. Thank you.
[37:09] » Do I see us now, Jeff?
>> Uh, no.
[37:12] » Yep.
>> Nope.
[37:14] » We're still waiting for All right, Mike.
Other staff.
[37:22] Hopefully Mike has good news. [laughter]
>> Right.
[37:30] » You got the same news at the end of the
legislative session.
[37:32] » Yeah. [clears throat]
[37:36] » Good morning.
[37:43] » No formal PowerPoint or anything this
year. Um
[37:48] what we have in front [clears throat] of
us is just a is our proposed 2027
[37:53] budget. Um coupled with the last few
years actuals. Um
[38:00] just want to point out a few things and
this would rather just um go question
[38:04] answer. We do have um significant
revenue
[38:10] loss on one on a partic one of our
lines. It's not a loss. What it is is
[38:15] it's with our MA recoveries. Um because
we didn't have that position for a
[38:20] significant amount of time, we got it, I
believe, late in 23 or halfway through
[38:25] 23. Um there was a huge backlog of
monies um tied to MA recoveries and
[38:33] estate recoveries um that we were able
to go after and um acquire through that
[38:39] process um which led to um some
significant ballooning on those
[38:44] revenues. Um now that we are essentially
caught up on that backlog, um what we
[38:53] have to represent now is what we propose
we can continue moving forward. Um which
[38:59] when compared to you compare 27 to um 25
and 24 actuals, it it is um about a half
[39:08] a million dollar change
in revenue.
[39:17] I'd also like to point out um
in our adult services system we have um
[39:27] conservatively put in our numbers. Um I
think they're they're fairly accurate as
[39:33] far as our our revenue gain on our
waiver programming. um we will have a
[39:39] little better picture of that following
third quarter which we should have
[39:45] um late November or early December um to
have it updated before the end of the
[39:50] year but um that's with our
[39:56] um
caddy CAC uh and developmental
[40:01] disability waiverss uh as well as our
EW. So those are tough those are tough
[40:06] to estimate moving out um because the
the billing cycles are be are behind and
[40:13] um at the beginning of this year with
the changes they made
[40:20] our our all our claiming was going in
and revenue wasn't coming in for so it's
[40:25] kind of it kind of got backlog at this
state which did um make me nervous there
[40:30] for a while but it is starting to catch
up but um so I'm hoping that'll kind of
[40:35] iron it itself out. And it had to do
with um them changing rates on what
[40:40] services cost and they weren't prepared
for the first of the year. Um so
[40:44] counties were implementing service uh
and then unable to receive money back
[40:49] for it. So
[40:59] » Josh, can you explain to Josh, sorry,
Mike, can you explain um
[41:04] so what we passed to Prime West for the
training?
[41:08] » Will you help me understand how that's
going to be implemented in Hover County
[41:14] and do you think that that will result
in a lot of changes? looking at Mer
[41:18] County it was significant
>> um
[41:22] » lot of home placements right
>> yeah so the safe generations program
[41:28] that is being proposed uh for the member
counties of prime west
[41:34] is in an attempt to um one follow
through with the um mandates out of the
[41:42] MAFPA legislation
um which in that legislation their their
[41:47] goal goal is to um making sure that we
lower or that we're reviewing with um a
[41:53] little more scrutiny on out of home
placements. um these member counties um
[42:00] MER County being the the pilot or the
pioneer of this particular program um is
[42:06] offering training
um so that we can kind of get on board
[42:11] one follow those mandates through the
MAP legislation and then at the same
[42:15] time kind of lower those costs um
through their presentation which is all
[42:19] I've had um
it looks like it's a proven program I
[42:25] mean at least for one county. Um it does
look like they have
[42:30] more of a collaborative setup in their
county. Um which we we would have to
[42:35] work towards um as far as getting law
enforcement involved. Um maybe change
[42:40] some changing within our screening and
screening teams, but um I think we can
[42:45] we can get there. Um our auto placements
by number I believe have been going
[42:51] down. um that doesn't always mean the
cost is going down. Um [clears throat]
[42:59] one one placement that is requiring 2 to
one staffing uh for a kid or unable to
[43:08] find a um placement within your own
state can balloon that number
[43:13] significantly unfortunately. But as far
as doing a better job in the auto health
[43:19] placements and making sure that we are
only doing what's necessary, I think it
[43:23] does work. Um there is a training coming
up. Um and we will have our entire um
[43:29] children's services attending that
training here in October.
[43:34] » So it's many hours over several months.
Correct.
[43:38] » The training.
>> Uhhuh.
[43:40] » I believe so. Um, thus far all I got,
uh, I believe it was last week, maybe
[43:44] the week before was kind of the save the
date. We have more information coming.
[43:49] » So, the one thing I remember is, um,
from the presentation,
[43:53] law enforcement was somehow involved and
there was a list created. And so,
[43:59] um, if there was an emergency with a
child,
[44:03] um, if I'm understanding this correctly,
a solution
[44:08] was found quickly because of the
collaboration is, and do we currently
[44:12] not do that? Is this would that be
something new for us?
[44:17] » It would be a change, I believe, for us.
We we do collaborate with law
[44:20] enforcement. Um, I believe what MER has
is law enforcement actually in their
[44:25] screening team every day.
>> Oh, okay. I wondered about that. Okay.
[44:30] » So, I believe Itaska has that similar
model.
[44:35] » Okay.
>> So, I'm just looking at the big picture
[44:38] right now to stimulate some more
discussion, but
[44:44] our expenditures have gone up basically
since 2023 from 9 a.5 million to 12
[44:50] million. Our revenues have stayed
relatively flat
[44:56] » between that time, but our levy
total county cost is the requested levy
[45:03] is going from 2.7 million to 7 million.
>> Correct.
[45:09] » I I I don't know how we do this.
Well, if we could look at more
[45:14] historical data, I think you'd show in
2016 that the levy used to be in three
[45:19] at the $3 million mark and it was cut
for about four or five years in a row
[45:24] and then it stayed stagnant for two
years and then the request to increase
[45:29] it started in 2024. So, there was an
8-year gap where it did not keep up
[45:36] » likely because the fund balance was
high.
[45:38] » That's why it was cut. Now our our fund
balance is hovering at the red.
[45:45] » So I get your point, but my point is is
the growth the growth of social services
[45:52] is is crazy.
>> Yeah.
[45:57] » And I don't know that we're any better
off for it.
[46:01] Seems seems like we're not.
[46:05] So I don't know. I don't know how we do
it. I don't know how we do a $2 million
[46:09] levy increase, period.
I mean, that's what is that almost 30%.
[46:16] » 40
>> 40
[46:17] » 40.
>> That's like whoa. Mix that with public
[46:20] safety. The way that's gone up the last
couple I I just don't know how we do
[46:24] this.
>> It's not possible.
[46:29] Something's going to break.
I mean, the state's not increasing
[46:34] hardly anything on on what they're
getting and also federal.
[46:38] » No.
>> Why is the county having to increase so
[46:41] much? I mean, are the programs all um
required that we're doing everything?
[46:50] All programs in in our office right now
are required mandated except for one
[46:55] service that we operate. Um, and that's
with our family- based um, social worker
[47:01] program, which I would not recommend
getting rid of.
[47:05] It it
it adds such a bridge to the children's
[47:09] services programming um, that if we rid
of that and then contracted it out or
[47:16] tried to eat the cost with just the
workers we have, we would we would go
[47:20] backwards.
They're a lower paying position anyways.
[47:26] Um, not that that's but you're not cost
savings isn't there to what potentially
[47:31] the cost would be of adding hours or
overtime to the social workers.
[47:37] » I know when I was with Mahubby a number
of times I heard Liz talk about she'd
[47:43] hold up her hands and start out, you
know, where they start with the programs
[47:48] and then at very end is getting them off
the the programs. I mean, are we trying
[47:52] to get them off programs?
I
[47:57] it depends where you on what your
reference is. If it's in adult services,
[48:01] typically not. There's no there's no
ending. I mean, you qualify for a
[48:06] service based on a disability or a
developmental delay. Um
[48:11] we're not going to change that. Um so
numbers grow and the only way to um
[48:16] decrease is when folks move or they pass
away. We're not going to we're not going
[48:22] to service somebody back to mental
health capacity. We're not can't service
[48:26] someone back into um gaining um
a different developmental um achievement
[48:34] levels. But what we can do is put
services around them so that they can
[48:37] live
a life similar to everyone else.
[48:42] We've increased our um assessments over
the last uh 10 years as well in Hubard
[48:49] County through our min choices program
which is o which does open up services
[48:53] to more people but they're all eligible
based on the the rules and regulations
[48:57] that exist.
>> Is there a large percentage of people
[49:01] who have moved into the area then
immediately go on to public assistance?
[49:07] » No, I don't believe we've had any
increase in our population.
[49:11] increase in services um and our highest
number is with our elderly.
[49:17] » So there's two basic things
commissioner. I mean one of your
[49:21] questions I think is related to cash
assistance. People are on cash
[49:24] assistance for very short periods of
time. People are on programs who are in
[49:30] nursing homes or in mental health
situations for long periods of time.
[49:34] That's our elderly population for the
most part aside from some of the the
[49:38] children stuff. um that we know when we
have auto home placements get to be
[49:42] expensive. Um
nobody's getting a paycheck from Hubard
[49:47] County Social Services. Um cash cash
programs are rent assistance. They're
[49:54] gas assistance. There are things that
help people bridge a gap so that they
[49:58] can continue to work at a job that they
have or stay in a place that they have
[50:02] to avoid them needing long-term
services. And those short-term services
[50:06] are
weeks, 30 days, very short periods of
[50:12] time intervals. People are moved off of
those because they're only um short-term
[50:18] programs. The long-term programs are
primarily our elderly population in
[50:23] Hubard County. Having a higher
percentage of elderly than just about
[50:26] any county in the state means we're
going to have higher services. Um
[50:32] there's there are other I can give other
context and I don't like it any more
[50:35] than you that we have to we have to be
looking at a levy like this but this is
[50:39] the that's how the math works out
relative to the programs we have to
[50:44] support. Um, when I look at
[50:51] $10 billion worth of county um,
uh, budgets across the state,
[51:00] 43% comes from property taxes. 32% goes
to human service expenses.
[51:07] And when I look at Harvard County,
37% of our of our budget comes from
[51:13] levy. So le less than the average county
and only 23%
[51:19] of our budget is going to human
services. Um
[51:24] honestly the numbers are catching up
with us. Uh like like other counties
[51:29] have been paying those kinds of rates.
where we're high is um
[51:37] honestly in our I mean I hate to say it
in our in our highway department
[51:41] typically uh transit is about 10% of a
budget
[51:47] um statewide for counties and it's 20%
of our budget
[51:53] but that's reflected in the fact that
people always comment on how good a
[51:55] roads we have and how incremental that
has been.
[52:00] If we looked at and it and you can you
can't change the past, right? But if
[52:04] from 20 instead of decreases from 2017
to 2022, if we'd have stayed at 3%.
[52:13] Just a marginal increase like we did
with highway department. We would have
[52:16] collected $6 million more and we'd still
only be at 3% and the levy request this
[52:21] year would be about 5 a.5 million
because we'd be able to use some of that
[52:24] builtup fund balance. I understand why
those things happen from 2017 to 2022,
[52:31] but we went just a little bit too far.
Um, April this year, we were
[52:37] writing checks we couldn't cash.
>> We had two months in a row where our
[52:40] operating budget was in the red. Yes.
[52:45] » So Tom, I agree that Muhammad is very
proactive at trying to change people's
[52:51] lives. And I think part of this picture
and the frustration, Dave, is that state
[52:56] and federally,
they're not that's not part of the
[53:01] equation.
And Liz will be the first to tell you, I
[53:04] mean, this is intensive. To change
somebody's life, it takes four to five
[53:08] years.
And and I I don't know what to do with
[53:14] this either. My problem my problem with
the whole big picture thing it's not
[53:19] it's not Harvard County per se it's not
our social service it's it's the big
[53:22] picture thing is
>> at what po at what point in time do you
[53:26] push back against this stuff because if
you don't push back it doesn't change
[53:30] the same old same old that the
definition of insanity is doing the same
[53:34] thing over and over again expecting
different results well if the state's
[53:37] going to keep acting like they are and
the counties just say okay I guess we
[53:40] just have to raise our levy and do it
nothing is going to change
[53:46] zippon and the rate of growth that's
going on here. It'll swallow us up
[53:52] before the next decade if it grows keeps
growing like this. This this just cannot
[53:57] happen. And somebody needs to wake the
hell up.
[54:01] And we know where it is. It's it's St.
Paul. But if you can't get them to move,
[54:07] you kind of got to push back somehow.
And I I I don't know what the right
[54:11] answer to that is, but um we have to
solve our problems. The pro the problems
[54:17] we were dealt with from St. Paul and the
federal government, we are now forced to
[54:22] deal with and our taxpayers are going to
have to deal with it in one way or
[54:25] another. And we have to figure out how
to best make that work.
[54:29] We got to be better. We got to be better
than St. Paul.
[54:35] Otherwise, it's going to hurt our entire
community.
[54:39] because people can't afford this
and it it just it's been going like this
[54:44] for three, four years now. This is
insane
[54:47] basically ever since co I mean it's just
like here we go. At some point we got to
[54:52] turn the ship around.
I'm not sure how to do it. I'm not an
[54:58] expert in your department. So I don't
know
[55:03] how to do it. But the first things I
would look at is can you reorganize? Can
[55:07] you do get by with less?
We have to figure something out. We
[55:12] cannot just keep raising the levy.
>> The challenge is
[55:16] » we have to do something different.
>> Every FTE you eliminate or think about
[55:20] cutting that's providing services is
also bringing in revenue. So every time
[55:25] you take 50,000 off of your cost, you're
taking $40,000 off your revenue and
[55:31] you're making the imbalance. still
gaining ground,
[55:34] » but you're not really. And and
>> and when we get to the point of error
[55:39] rates and not making um not meeting
requirements for case loads, etc., then
[55:45] our reimbursements go down even more and
you start losing money. The the the
[55:50] biggest challenge is the thing that was
has been easy to cut for the last 30
[55:54] years, public health. Public health is
optional in the state of Minnesota. So
[55:59] spending has gone down and every dollar
spent in public health puts back5 to $25
[56:06] back in returns. Those are the programs
that that catch people before they fall
[56:11] off the cliff and require those programs
and the fact that Harvard County um like
[56:18] many other counties outsources that
right and we just take the grant pass
[56:21] through money and we don't we don't put
anything into public health. So that
[56:26] that amount of money spent in the
community, the amount of money for
[56:29] that's available from a hubby and others
to to do those things and and intercede
[56:33] on people who are going to need
assistance.
[56:37] We've not spent we could spend our money
on that and in the long term have to
[56:42] spend less money on long-term programs.
Um but the way the way that that's gone,
[56:48] we're we're not doing that.
with what you just you just said there
[56:53] in looking at the numbers here that you
got on the screen right in front of me.
[56:56] You see those state and federal
reimbursement levels, they haven't
[57:01] changed with the additional people that
we've added since 20 uh 2023. They
[57:06] haven't changed much at all. So, I mean,
our Zit employee who who can bring in
[57:12] revenue doesn't look like it's
happening. Those are actually going down
[57:17] as a result of the 2025 federal
legislation and the state cost shares.
[57:21] Our estimates are that we're not going
to pay that. We're going to see a
[57:24] reduction in the revenues we get passed
through to us for that work.
[57:29] » Even in previous years prior to 2027,
[57:35] » those overall numbers, Tom, that you're
looking at on that page are made up of
[57:39] several lines. Um
that's just the total between all the
[57:44] revenue lines for a state. Um
which we can
[57:51] » Nancy
>> bring a different day or show you what
[57:53] they all are. Um but it's potent. There
is some that probably went down, some
[57:58] that don't do go up.
I think where you're probably more along
[58:03] what your
first question was whenever you're
[58:07] talking about state and federal revenues
is when you're talking adult services,
[58:11] you haven't se seen a increase in what a
case manager can earn since 2014.
[58:18] So that that
dollar amount they can bring in is the
[58:23] same. So, if they're bringing in $100 an
an hour as a case manager in 2014 and
[58:29] we're spending it at today's price in
2026, it ain't the same. I
[58:34] » I can remember uh I don't know how many
positions, but there probably a few that
[58:40] were added over the number of years that
I've been here and it was based on a
[58:45] grant with an expiration date. Are have
those have you keeping track of when
[58:50] those expiration dates for grants come?
And is that employee still with the
[58:54] county after an expiration or the
expiration of a grant?
[59:01] » I don't know that
>> I'm not aware of any positions that were
[59:03] grant fun.
>> That's law enforcement more specifically
[59:06] than
>> I can think of one position in adult
[59:08] services that was supplemented by Prime
West for a period of time. I do not
[59:12] recall that it was set up with a sunset
date though.
[59:15] » Okay.
And part of the reason um that position
[59:19] was added was out of the at that time it
was 13 counties and we had a much higher
[59:25] case load than any other county and we
were behind in getting
[59:30] the data needed to prime west.
[59:34] So so here's an example and Mike please
understand we're not frustrated with you
[59:41] we're just frustrated.
Um, so when I go to AMC
[59:47] and I get frustrated because the answer
is always we have to ask for more money.
[59:52] We have to ask for more money. But this
was an example given in one of the other
[59:57] counties. They had a child was either 12
or 13 and was extremely violent and
[1:00:03] there wasn't anywhere to put him. in
that particular county, I don't even
[1:00:06] remember which county it was, but they
had two social workers and the and the
[1:00:12] child was literally on the floor in the
social work department. And one of the
[1:00:18] things that aggravated the child greatly
was his phone,
[1:00:23] but they could not take the phone away
from him even though they knew that his
[1:00:28] behavior would greatly improve because
the parent would not sign off.
[1:00:35] And so we are frustrated but part of it
is this big picture that we don't have
[1:00:40] any control over. And so Dave when you
say we have to do something and I'm
[1:00:44] thinking if we don't do it this if I
understand it correctly the state will
[1:00:50] come in and do it and then bill us. I
don't know what the answer is unless all
[1:00:54] 87 counties get together and just say
we're not going to do this. So, you're
[1:00:59] going to get to the point then where
social services and highway or uh public
[1:01:04] safety are driving the entire budget and
other departments, you're going to have
[1:01:07] to cut services in other departments.
>> Is that right?
[1:01:11] » No, it's not right. But I I'm just
saying the the way it it's my
[1:01:16] understanding the way it's set up,
>> they're they're handing us unfunded
[1:01:21] mandates and if we don't do them,
they're going to come in and do them for
[1:01:24] us and then bill us.
>> My whole point behind the whole thing is
[1:01:29] all the counties. Nobody's screaming
loud enough about it.
[1:01:31] » So the con but the solution is for all
the counties to get together
[1:01:35] » because we could solve this problem
tomorrow if you could control your own
[1:01:38] programs on how you did them. This would
not be that hard to fix. You could do it
[1:01:44] the way you saw fit to serve our
residents best instead of being told
[1:01:47] what to do all the time. This would not
be that hard to fix.
[1:01:53] » I just have a couple of questions about
on the revenue end there. These are
[1:01:57] minor changes, but I mean there's
$20,000. I think it's in chemical
[1:02:01] dependency. Um, rule 25, not rule 25
assessments, CD consolidated fund admin.
[1:02:09] I mean, in the past few years, it's been
26,000, 24,000, 15,000, and 27 it's
[1:02:17] estimated is $50. And that's a to me
that jumps out right away that hey, did
[1:02:23] a program change? Is there a funding
source that dropped away? Um, or is
[1:02:28] there a program that has been eliminated
that we used to use to gain some
[1:02:33] revenue? And then I think that happens
in mental health as well. Uh, children's
[1:02:40] mental health services. There's a zero
when it was 15,000, 10,000, 8,000.
[1:02:47] Um,
>> arrestment grant.
[1:02:50] » Yeah. Yeah.
I'm just kind of wondering did something
[1:02:53] change at the federal or state level
that's impacting our revenues
[1:02:58] um in a negative way?
>> I mean I in a in the big picture it's
[1:03:02] not much money but you know in the total
budget but
[1:03:07] » y
>> so that that children's respit grant we
[1:03:11] did not receive that or we will not
receive that for 27.
[1:03:15] » Okay.
Um, and the chemical dependency fund
[1:03:19] admin
is
[1:03:24] » right here.
[1:03:31] » Case manager.
>> Well, it's
[1:03:36] » I know it's hard for you to know all the
ins and outs of these programs because
[1:03:39] they're vast.
>> It's just
[1:03:41] » complicated. Yeah, sure not. Is that
just because
[1:03:44] » I'm guessing because I it's a guess
without having it in front of me is we
[1:03:48] no longer offer um we don't do
assessments and case management work out
[1:03:52] of our office.
>> Okay. All right.
[1:03:54] » So all that's done and handled through
the community. So we just refer out
[1:03:58] » Okay. All right.
[1:04:02] And I'm just trying to pick up revenue
wherever we can because we need help. So
[1:04:07] if there's something that we overlooked
or or what have you that
[1:04:11] » and the challenge is with a with a fund
balance that's running on empty is we
[1:04:16] have to be conservative and overestimate
expenditures just a little bit and
[1:04:21] underestimate [snorts] revenues a little
bit. Um because if we get to the point
[1:04:24] where we don't have fund balance, we're
writing checks out of the general fund
[1:04:27] to cover it.
Um
[1:04:31] but I would like to to point out um
I took over in midocctober of last year.
[1:04:39] Um shortly after that or right around
that same time we did uh implement uh in
[1:04:45] the social service parts of children and
adult services a policy regarding case
[1:04:50] noting. Um it it is in our region,
northern region, I would consider it one
[1:04:57] of the um tougher, more more pressured
um policies as far as time entry and
[1:05:04] amount of time that needs to be put in
per month. And then it is it is followed
[1:05:08] through and monitored um not by the
supervisors but actually by myself. I
[1:05:13] monitor that every month with NY's help.
um
[1:05:18] that I think in time will make some
change. We made it late in in 25 and
[1:05:25] it's been um implemented through 26. So
there were some growing pains in that
[1:05:29] first quarter and probably somewhere
into the second quarter, but it is on um
[1:05:35] it's going well and um I think I mean
everyone's adhering to it the best they
[1:05:39] can. So with that is the increased notes
which means we have um more
[1:05:46] claims that we can make. That doesn't
mean they're all payable, but it is it's
[1:05:51] notes are going in so that they can make
it to finance so that we can process
[1:05:55] that down to the state. Um also,
um with the
[1:06:01] changes that we made late last year with
some staffing to um repurpose some
[1:06:06] positions, um in an effort to just kind
of rebalance,
[1:06:10] we did see um our targeted case
management numbers um which began in
[1:06:17] August of 26 um all increase. Um I don't
have the I don't have a full
[1:06:24] understanding of how they calculate that
number but it is based on number of
[1:06:28] worker per cases and am the amount of
work they can perform. Um, so they have
[1:06:33] a a happy zone and I I think we're
approaching that where we've seen um in
[1:06:38] our child welfare TCM uh we had an
increase from 26 to the 27 budget uh by
[1:06:46] 30%. In our children's mental health TCM
it increased almost 14%.
[1:06:52] And our VAD and adult mental health uh
rates went up 21%.
[1:06:58] So I do I can I strongly um strongly
feel that that is due to that change. So
[1:07:05] I know there was some concern and
confusion that maybe that move wasn't
[1:07:11] what we needed to do or maybe didn't
work. Um and when I look at these
[1:07:16] numbers that's a direct reflection of
those changes.
[1:07:20] » Um I don't know the ins and outs of the
system. Uh but uh
[1:07:27] the move to
the front desk staff to the case aid
[1:07:33] position instead of being so to say
receptionist office support.
[1:07:39] » Um are those hours billable when they do
the case aid work then
[1:07:44] » for for the two?
>> Yeah.
[1:07:46] » Up there. Um they're
not right. We left them off. So they're
[1:07:52] still under admin.
>> Oh, okay. All right.
[1:07:57] » What it did is open up what they can do
and how they can assist.
[1:08:01] » Mhm. Okay.
>> But it is not a monetary gain.
[1:08:05] » Okay. All right. That was that was my
question because if they could be
[1:08:08] utilized to do some case aid work that
would increase billable hours, we'd just
[1:08:12] be able to capture a little bit of
revenue anyway off of it.
[1:08:15] » Okay. Thank you. like the dysfunctional
um system that your staff has to
[1:08:22] implement things on. If that was
actually up and working efficiently,
[1:08:29] would that increase staff time by 25%.
[1:08:35] » I don't know the percentage of the what
the required work is going to add. I do
[1:08:41] feel it's going to add some um if we can
get it organized and structured so that
[1:08:48] it fits what we need.
I think we can
[1:08:54] minimize that that percentage or that
number, but it is going to increase
[1:08:59] because we they're telling us we do have
to follow through with a little more
[1:09:04] scrutiny, a little more extra work, a
little digging behind the scenes, more
[1:09:08] screening on um this um so it will
increase.
[1:09:13] » And you know what? I didn't I didn't
phrase my question correctly. So if if
[1:09:18] the system was up and running so it it
doesn't crash or you don't have to enter
[1:09:23] it in multiple what I meant how much
time is wasted because of the states
[1:09:30] amount of working
>> yeah because that's a factor also
[1:09:34] » and that's more in reference to income
maintenance um but speaking all programs
[1:09:38] computers in general
on any given week we have manh hours
[1:09:44] that are
[1:09:47] sedendary. I mean, we're sitting there
waiting for something to load or um a
[1:09:51] network cut or um
>> or having to reput it in.
[1:09:56] » Yep. Or duplication of entry.
>> Yeah.
[1:09:58] » Um so there is there is some time there.
Um I wouldn't know how to project it as
[1:10:05] to percentage or hours, but there
certainly is. I mean, even on an
[1:10:08] administrative side, there's times where
I I want to get in and log into a
[1:10:13] program and I'm waiting for a spinning
wheel to load. Um,
[1:10:19] so
>> because even though there was money
[1:10:21] allocated,
there isn't even a date to start.
[1:10:25] » No, there's no plan relative to the
problem we're facing here too, I don't
[1:10:29] think it would even make a dent.
The um probably the biggest challenge is
[1:10:37] the number of employees the state
employs in all of these divisions. None
[1:10:42] of whom provide direct services.
>> None of whom provide direct services.
[1:10:46] They are hired
to oversee and watch and count the
[1:10:52] tallies and the beans and report and
document
[1:10:57] all the legislative. Every time we have
someone come in and say you got to watch
[1:11:00] this, you got to do this twice a year
instead of once a year. You got to check
[1:11:04] this all these eligibility, all the
requirements into this old system.
[1:11:11] If our if our numbers have gone up from
54 to to 70 in human services in in
[1:11:19] eight nine years,
theirs have tripled. The number of
[1:11:23] employees the state employs is double or
triple what it was in the same amount of
[1:11:26] time. and they're not providing any
direct service.
[1:11:31] That's how last year 25 I think um the
human service budget exceeded the
[1:11:38] education budget
>> in the state of Minnesota for the first
[1:11:40] time because we're paying for things
that aren't provi that are not
[1:11:45] translating into services
that are helping people. and Prime West
[1:11:50] will tell you that they're not reading
the reports they're asking for because
[1:11:53] they'll come back and ask the very same
thing and Prime West will say, "Well, we
[1:11:56] already sent that to you the last
quarter."
[1:12:00] » If there's if there's an opportunity for
reform, it's the it's in the way the
[1:12:03] state is restructured so that more of
those dollars that are are available
[1:12:08] become available to provide services.
But to Dave's point,
[1:12:14] » counties cannot con sustain this.
>> And you're 100% right. The bulk of the
[1:12:20] problem is is at the state level. So the
bigger question is how are the counties
[1:12:25] going to react to it and how are they
going to force change
[1:12:28] because it can't keep going like this.
And I just want to summarize this for
[1:12:32] the public so the public understands
exactly what we're dealing with. We're
[1:12:37] asking for a 40% local levy increase.
Total revenues are down approximately
[1:12:42] $750,000 due to the cost shifts.
Expenses are going to be up
[1:12:48] approximately $750,000
due to mandates that come and and other
[1:12:54] factors like our payroll and yeah,
negotiations and all that.
[1:12:59] » So that's one and a half million plus.
Then we're trying to shore up our fund
[1:13:03] balance. So, we're we're trying to shore
up the fund balance by another $460,000.
[1:13:09] So, of this roughly $2 million levy
increase, how much of the expense is an
[1:13:15] added FTE for 27? We adding any FTEEs
and how much?
[1:13:20] » One one budgeted
>> one FTE at 135
[1:13:24] » 135,000
>> and then uh
[1:13:26] » which is a
which will go into um children's
[1:13:32] services to help
structure and lead um through the new um
[1:13:39] MAFPA. So for this year only or this
coming year it is offset by 100,000
[1:13:47] » and the other the other hidden thing
here is this gets worse in 28.
[1:13:52] » Yeah, it does.
>> This is just the beginning. This gets
[1:13:55] worse in 28. It could be just as bad if
not worse next year when we budget this.
[1:14:01] So the question I would have it, can we
reorganize in every any way and save
[1:14:06] that FTE?
That's the homework I would give you
[1:14:11] over the next next few weeks. Can we
reduce services to a bare minimum? Can
[1:14:16] you identify what though what that would
look like and how it would look? And
[1:14:21] » because unless you actually unless we
actually do the exercise, we don't know.
[1:14:26] You have to we have to unfortunately do
the exercise to see if there's anything
[1:14:30] there. There may be, there may not be.
Um, but I think we need to do the
[1:14:34] exercise. And I don't think we can
handle more than a 750 to a million
[1:14:40] dollar levy increase here this year
because we're going to get hit again
[1:14:44] next year and it's just going to get
ugly in a real big hurry if we don't do
[1:14:49] something to try and control it. Now,
>> we can certainly go through that
[1:14:53] exercise. We've talked about it on our
supervisor meetings. We do meet twice a
[1:14:57] month. Um, and it is a topic we bring
up. Do we have the right people in the
[1:15:01] arena out in the right spots?
[1:15:07] I would
[1:15:10] strongly
think about if we don't promote that $2
[1:15:15] million increase
and our
[1:15:20] actual ends up
700 to a million over budget like it has
[1:15:27] the previous three years.
We'll be in more trouble then.
[1:15:31] » Yeah.
>> Because the checks will still have to be
[1:15:33] written.
That go that goes to that next question.
[1:15:37] What is the bare minimum, you know, that
we would have to do to meet the all the
[1:15:42] requirements the state is asking to us.
>> Maybe it's gotten to that point.
[1:15:48] » I I understand Dave's point and I and I
agree for the most part, but but I'm
[1:15:52] also thinking
if we do shave everything down to the
[1:15:58] absolute bare minimum, what cost is it
going to be to public health? What cost
[1:16:04] is it going to be to law enforcement?
What cost is going to be uh spread to
[1:16:09] any other organizations or any other
part of government that doesn't affect
[1:16:15] our budget exactly on the front, but we
see it
[1:16:20] um as expenditures through other means.
Um
[1:16:27] I I don't know, you know, how is that
going to impact the rest of the
[1:16:30] community as a whole or the county as a
whole? If we take those things away, you
[1:16:35] know, there's not always someone else
there to to pick up that slack.
[1:16:41] Um, like I said, maybe we'll have more
mental health issues, so then all of a
[1:16:45] sudden we're skyrocketing there or more
child issues. We got an increase there.
[1:16:51] I mean, it because you cut it to the
bare minimum doesn't mean it really
[1:16:56] saves you in the long term. So, and it
is it's a battle. It is a huge battle.
[1:17:02] And if those numbers remain the same,
Steve,
[1:17:06] we do we will border on
potential going back to where we were on
[1:17:12] staff burnout and lack of retention,
which has been a goal of Hubards
[1:17:15] counties in the last five to six years
is strengthening retention, morale of
[1:17:20] staff, longevity.
And if we do cut to the minimum, even if
[1:17:25] the cases stay the same, now you have a
workforce that can't keep at that rate.
[1:17:31] And then you also have to account for
people being out on a maternity leave or
[1:17:36] an extended uh family issue that they
can't come in to work, you know, and
[1:17:42] then you have to try to backfill to fill
that void. And so that may involve some
[1:17:47] overtime, you know, that just increases
the amount of burnout that happens
[1:17:51] within the system. And it's a tough
enough thing that everybody has to deal
[1:17:55] with to begin with. Um, so I'm just I'm
frustrated with a lot of things, but um,
[1:18:02] it's just it's hard to really come up
with an idea to to solve the problem
[1:18:09] because we haven't created all these
problems ourselves within our
[1:18:13] organization. It it's the state and the
federal really that has has
[1:18:18] » changed the dynamics of everything and
they don't have a solution. They just
[1:18:22] they just want to keep kicking that can
down the road, make somebody else pay
[1:18:26] for it, and it's the county taxpayer.
>> Correct.
[1:18:28] » And it's it's shameful.
>> Yeah. The failure of the state to manage
[1:18:32] its budget properly has now become a
local tax liability. [snorts]
[1:18:36] » Yep.
>> You know, and
[1:18:39] if they don't fund the mandates they put
on us,
[1:18:43] we can't just keep past at some point in
time, you got to seriously look at
[1:18:46] cutting services because you you won't
have a choice and that's where you're
[1:18:49] going to end up anyhow. And that's
really where the taxpayers of the county
[1:18:54] need to contact the people at the state
and their federal representatives to
[1:18:59] keep pushing the envelope to tell tell
them they're disgusted with it because
[1:19:04] we can voice it up all we want at AMC
and and any legislative uh time we get,
[1:19:11] but if you don't have other people
backing you and saying those same
[1:19:16] things, they're just they just figure,
oh, you're just complaining to
[1:19:20] complaint. you just want to cut your
budget. You don't want, you know, so it
[1:19:25] takes more than just us.
>> It does. But the environment has been
[1:19:28] they haven't been they haven't even been
running their social programs
[1:19:32] effectively and then they're piling them
more on every year.
[1:19:35] » It's like at some point you got to fix
the ones you got. So I'll just make a
[1:19:40] note that we haven't discussed is that
in 2023 we use 1.3 million cash reserves
[1:19:45] and 24 800,000 and 25 750,000
budgeted to use 120 this year but we are
[1:19:53] outperforming that we are ahead of
schedule on revenues and expenses are
[1:19:58] about at at when I'm looking at the
financials from July
[1:20:03] um we can have a conversation about that
this this number Um, remember this is
[1:20:09] the only department that we when we
calculate payroll then we take 2% off
[1:20:14] because we always have vacancies in
that. This is the only group that we've
[1:20:17] done that since since I've been here and
half of this is that credit for having
[1:20:23] vacancies
which is not good, [snorts and laughter]
[1:20:27] right? It's it's stress on on on on the
people that are still there and doing
[1:20:31] the transitions but it's something that
we've noted we can always put in there.
[1:20:34] So half of that is this. So, I have a
couple of ideas relative to the overall
[1:20:39] budget request that we um are going to
look at
[1:20:44] next, but um I just wanted to point out
that this right now we're we look like
[1:20:51] we're instead of spending $120,000 of
fund balance, we're cont we're kicking
[1:20:57] back a few hundred,000 based on
performance this year to date through
[1:21:00] July. um which is good and necessary,
but um
[1:21:08] and it kind of turns the tide a little
bit from the year previous.
[1:21:15] [cough]
I just want to say, Mike, you you manage
[1:21:18] a
complicated department and I appreciate
[1:21:23] what you do.
>> Thank you.
[1:21:26] » We all I think we all do.
>> I think they've done a fantastic job
[1:21:30] since Um well obviously in the last four
years um or five years since I've been
[1:21:37] here the staff um have been much
happier. They've been much I think
[1:21:43] motivated to be doing their work. If we
could really solve some of the problems
[1:21:47] at the state with the systems that
they're using. If we could find some way
[1:21:50] to balance out the who's paying for what
and and how much of the money that's
[1:21:54] allocated is actually getting used to
provide services, we would be having a
[1:21:59] significantly different conversation.
But um I've I sit in try to sit on on
[1:22:04] the supervisor meetings and those people
are dedicated and they're working with
[1:22:07] their staff to do everything they
possibly can. I know that Mike is
[1:22:10] reviewing those numbers all the time. I
also see the the the
[1:22:16] comments we get from the public because
of the [clears throat] impact that staff
[1:22:19] have made on their lives which are not
things that we can always share with
[1:22:23] everybody, right? Um, we hear that and
we got to find a way to generally share
[1:22:28] those things so that you under
understand
[1:22:32] sometimes you do get a win. Um,
sometimes sometimes you're just managing
[1:22:37] a bad situation, right? End of life is a
bad situation and that's the biggest
[1:22:41] that's the biggest check writer for
human services in the state of Minnesota
[1:22:46] is end of life stuff. Um, that's just
the way we've set up our financial
[1:22:51] systems. people go to go into a
facility, we take all their we we strip
[1:22:56] away anything they've ever had until
they get down to having a thousand
[1:22:59] dollars left in their bank account and
then we pay those fees for them until
[1:23:05] they die. I mean that that's our end of
life strategy um in the state of
[1:23:09] Minnesota and the way we manage that and
the number of people that we have on
[1:23:12] programs like that is higher than
anywhere else because of our aging
[1:23:17] population.
[1:23:20] But we will go back and we will take a
look and test some of those theories
[1:23:23] that you've asked us to test. Um I will
take a look at our proposed projected
[1:23:28] fund balance for 2020 end of 2026 and
see if there's anything we can do with
[1:23:32] that. Um
[1:23:37] and then the one thing that I do want to
do that this tries to get at this
[1:23:41] summary, but it's still a lot of still a
lot of data. um when the three of us
[1:23:45] have a conversation of this, we can go
through and we can pick through it
[1:23:47] because we're used to working with this
stuff. But um one of the things that I
[1:23:53] think we need to we need to explain is
little pie chart that shows how much is
[1:23:57] happening in adult services, right? That
end of life stuff is how much is
[1:24:01] happening in mental health and
children's services. Um so you can so
[1:24:05] you can get that in the context of um of
what's happening with that. And then
[1:24:10] with the um cash assistance, where does
that come in and how does it work and
[1:24:14] get some statistics on that for you
because you need you people will those
[1:24:18] are the questions people in the
community are going to ask you and you
[1:24:21] need to have answers about that
[1:24:25] » and I know your staff goes above and
beyond as well, Mike. Um they donate
[1:24:29] their time
um items
[1:24:34] and it's appreciated.
>> Thank you.
[1:24:40] Thanks.
[1:24:48] » Yep. Okay.
by the budget overview.
[1:24:54] » Then just um just generally
um going through and and Mike suggested
[1:25:01] we had been we had looked at this for in
previous years from 2018 to the current
[1:25:05] year and um I went back to 2017 because
that's the point in time when um when
[1:25:12] the first cut to the levy for human
services was made.
[1:25:17] Um general fund levy has been relatively
stable from 2017 to 2026 because we've
[1:25:23] had increased interest earnings. Uh 2027
anticipated interest earnings are
[1:25:29] reduced by about 450,000. So instead of
1.1 million we're looking at six 6 and a
[1:25:33] half or 650,000.
um 2027
[1:25:40] uh we have $730,000 [snorts] in capital
projects for um paving at the courthouse
[1:25:47] and at the highway department which we
didn't have before. Those two numbers
[1:25:52] are the difference between um the 26
general fund levy and the 27 proposed
[1:25:58] levy.
Highway's been very consistent at 3%.
[1:26:03] [sighs] This is the curve relative to
social services. The red line is the
[1:26:07] actual. Um the green line is 3% and the
um yellow line is 7%.
[1:26:17] Um when we've already discussed that the
public safety one we know um the red
[1:26:22] line is the actual the yellow line is 9%
and the green line is 3% if it would
[1:26:27] would have been on that that range. The
decrease in levy requests for public
[1:26:33] safety is not a decrease in their
operating expense. It's because we had a
[1:26:38] spike last year because we were paying
to outsource prisoners during the um
[1:26:42] during the construction and we're not
budgeting for that for 2027. So, we're
[1:26:46] not seeing a decrease in their
operating. we're just seeing a normal
[1:26:50] increase um less that
[1:26:56] the um
[1:27:01] the number that I showed you last time
um was this 12.3% increase to 25.7
[1:27:10] million. What I am
proposing that we can do is reduce that
[1:27:16] by $500,000
um for our meeting next week when we set
[1:27:22] a preliminary levy and get us down to
10% or even 9.9 whatever you want that
[1:27:28] number to be because I can take
something from human services when we
[1:27:32] take a look at our fund balance as it is
right now and how much we need to add to
[1:27:36] that so that 28 doesn't catch us so far
off offg guard.
[1:27:42] um in the law enforcement center. I had
payroll run um
[1:27:48] had a had them run a report for
everything budgeted and then for
[1:27:52] everything um budgeted but has been
vacant for a period of time and there's
[1:27:58] about $150,000 worth of payroll that we
haven't spent because we have vacant
[1:28:02] positions we haven't been able to fill.
So that would be my proposal there would
[1:28:06] be uh they have a tendency to fill that
up with overtime
[1:28:11] but that's the conversation we need to
have there is much of the overtime
[1:28:18] I guess half of the overtime is because
of the nature of the business that
[1:28:21] they're doing. You can't stop what
you're doing at the end of a shift
[1:28:24] because you're in the middle of
something. Uh you can't not cover a
[1:28:27] shift in the jail or in the dispatch
because we have to have the coverage
[1:28:30] 24/7.
Um, but how you allocate that overtime
[1:28:34] and make sure that it's shared more
equally than it has been, that's
[1:28:38] something that management can do. And
then general fund, we could take
[1:28:42] $100,000 off of there um
and just use a budget to use additional
[1:28:49] fund balance.
We could um we could defer the paving
[1:28:56] project by a year. Um, but that doesn't
really help us because in 28 it's going
[1:29:02] to cost more than it will in 27.
And I think that we can see that that
[1:29:06] is. But what I'm proposing is barring
any further direction from you is that
[1:29:12] I'm going to bring you a number that
says 9.9 for a preliminary increase and
[1:29:16] then we still have two or three months
to work with it. And this is how I would
[1:29:20] get there is with a combination of those
numbers.
[1:29:29] And just a reminder, it doesn't make it
better, but it does make it better. Um,
[1:29:34] we are scheduled to see a 20% increase
in tax capacity this year because of
[1:29:40] throughput in our utility transmissions,
which means if you
[1:29:45] didn't pull a permit this past year, um,
even a 10% increase in levy from the
[1:29:50] county is end up is going to end up with
a reduction in county taxes.
[1:29:57] long term doesn't make it better
this year. Um I know we had a 7%
[1:30:05] increase for this year and many people
saw actual decreases in their taxes
[1:30:09] because the tax capacity growth was more
than that.
[1:30:11] » Uh cost for the personnel does that take
into account how much insurance might go
[1:30:16] up?
We are estimating 10% increase which is
[1:30:21] actually a 20% increase because we split
it with the employees. Uh we are going
[1:30:26] to get an update today and the benefits
committee is having a meeting later this
[1:30:30] week. Oh, she's not there. We will
discuss that in the personnel committee
[1:30:34] meeting after this. What we know um the
um six-month numbers for us were not
[1:30:42] good.
um our usage is significantly above, you
[1:30:48] know, you want you want your usage to be
at 100% of your premiums. [snorts]
[1:30:52] Actually, you want it to be about 93% of
your premium so you can pay the
[1:30:55] administrative costs. Then we would see
a decrease in our in our um proposed
[1:31:00] rates.
That's not the case. So, I think that
[1:31:04] the 20% we're estimating is probably
accurate, which is not good, but it
[1:31:09] seems to be consistent with what people
are seeing, and we would see half of
[1:31:12] that. That's what's included in this
these numbers. Now,
[1:31:17] we'll give personnel committee will get
a little more insight um right after
[1:31:21] this meeting and I will have likely a
number to include in here so that when
[1:31:28] um we do a preliminary we know what
we're accounting for.
[1:31:36] So I was thinking a little more too
about it across the board cut. But the
[1:31:41] problem with that is you know what we're
facing next year and generally when you
[1:31:47] do that you you end up having to grow
back pretty fast within two or three
[1:31:52] years.
I don't know that
[1:31:56] I don't know if that'll benefit us when
we're looking at probably a bigger
[1:31:59] problem in 28.
[1:32:03] you may compound your problem.
[1:32:08] » Yeah, there are more changes and and
less actual certainty on what they're
[1:32:11] going to be in 2028.
[1:32:26] So, we'll have more information, more
discussion,
[1:32:31] but that's what I'm going to bring you
next week for consideration.
[1:32:37] And then I see Jonathan did make it from
Wald,
[1:32:41] » so that's good. We're glad he's We're
actually glad he's here because he had a
[1:32:44] little I don't know some sort of a
traffic incident this morning and had to
[1:32:48] change cars before he could get here.
[snorts]
[1:32:51] Anybody
got any questions for J?
[1:32:55] » Just just that you know it'd be nice if
I I just want to make sure that every
[1:33:00] department head is really going through
everything with a fine tooth comb and
[1:33:05] really trying to seriously take it down
to where it's it's only what's
[1:33:11] necessary.
Um, I I don't want to
[1:33:16] say that we need to have a mandatory
such a percentage off of everybody's
[1:33:21] budget, but I I do think there's there's
some room in some of these. Um,
[1:33:27] but once again, we do need to keep our
eye on 28 and realize what impacts may
[1:33:35] be there. You know, is it going to be a
rubber band like you were saying that
[1:33:40] » we just end up trying to make up for it?
playing catchup is a lot harder because
[1:33:44] it impacts harder.
So, um I just want to [clears throat]
[1:33:49] just want to try to keep things to the
bare bones if we can um just so it is a
[1:33:56] little easier to absorb in 28 hopefully
without such a significant increase. Um
[1:34:02] because there there's probably things
that are asked for that are not
[1:34:07] necessary.
>> Yeah.
[1:34:10] And who knows, maybe we'll get
pleasantly surprised and something will
[1:34:13] change for 28. But you know, just just
the info we got from AMC District 2 on
[1:34:18] what the SNAP and Medicaid, it was like
twice as large in 28 than it was in
[1:34:25] » 27. So,
>> and they're um
[1:34:31] » and fraud,
[1:34:36] » and it's money we can't get back either.
>> Mhm.
[1:34:40] Plus, they're not doing anything to
prevent it yet.
[1:34:43] » Doesn't appear. I mean, they're finding
new stuff yet.
[1:34:46] » So, yeah.
[1:34:50] They got any
>> the only way to have government spend
[1:34:56] less money is to give them less money to
spend.
[1:35:00] » Perfect.
[1:35:05] Mhm.
>> It may not be a simple solution, but
[1:35:10] » yeah,
>> it's the truth.
[1:35:12] » Yeah, we're at the bottom of the totem
pole unfortunately and
[1:35:17] we're just pushing her down the line.
[1:35:23] And then that'd be great if they let us
run our programs the way we [snorts]
[1:35:27] » needed to probably make it work. Maybe
there'll be a change in the legislature
[1:35:32] this year.
>> Yeah.
[1:35:38] » All right. Anything else?
>> Well, let's hear the good news about the
[1:35:42] jail.
>> Let's go to IC where we can spend some
[1:35:45] more money.
>> You guys will have this wonderful
[1:35:47] solution for us and Mark, right?
>> Costf free.
[1:35:53] » Only my friends. [laughter]
[1:36:04] Perfect. Well, thank you for having us.
I'm Jason Splat with IC. I think most of
[1:36:08] you know me, and I'll let Jonathan
introduce himself here.
[1:36:12] » Jonathan Loz with W Architects. Um, firm
that's worked with ICS uh for a number
[1:36:17] of different years now. Um, we're out of
Minneapolis. Uh, been doing probably
[1:36:22] county work pretty much my whole career.
So, 20 plus years. worked with a lot of
[1:36:27] Minnesota counties and been through a
lot of these studies. So, just kind of
[1:36:31] the breadth of experience we have kind
of helps provide some knowledge base for
[1:36:36] um how we do what we do and I'm
certainly open to any questions there
[1:36:40] might be on the information, but this is
sort of a check in on the data that we
[1:36:44] found so far and then there's another
iteration of providing some, you know,
[1:36:47] different options and things like that.
So, we don't have a lot of pretty
[1:36:51] pictures for you today yet, but uh we've
got information that I think will
[1:36:55] hopefully help you kind of come along
with the process and understand where
[1:36:59] we're going from here.
>> Yeah. And as Jonathan said, you know,
[1:37:03] we're going to first review process.
We're going to look at the existing
[1:37:07] deferred maintenance needs of each of
the spaces. That kind of sets it, you
[1:37:11] know, apart. This is what we need to
invest in each of these spaces. Then
[1:37:16] Jonathan will walk us through some of
the space needs both short and long term
[1:37:20] and then kind of wrap that up with the
study next step. So Jeeoff if you want
[1:37:24] to go to process to date. So as you know
IC did a deep dive into your facility
[1:37:30] back in 2122
um just to understand what are your
[1:37:36] needs kind of helped develop some of
that capital improvement plan and we
[1:37:39] really looked at that and then rewalked
the spaces to provide those updates. Our
[1:37:45] focus area was attorney courts,
probation, the old jail area, um the
[1:37:51] basement of the LEC, and then also
looking at the human services just
[1:37:56] because of the adjacencies
of that space to courts and and
[1:38:01] everything kind of on this end of the
building here. So um from the space
[1:38:07] programming side, Jonathan and his team
came up, interviewed the department
[1:38:12] heads just to understand what their
needs are, sent out a survey that kind
[1:38:16] of tied into that and then met with
Jeff, met back with department heads
[1:38:22] just to validate the information that we
had. So
[1:38:27] when we look at [clears throat]
um the deferred maintenance, what we're
[1:38:32] showing you today is the 10-year needs.
So you know, not just short-term, this
[1:38:38] is the full next 10 years and kind of
use that as our baseline as we look to
[1:38:44] the future on some of the decisions and
some of the areas that need some
[1:38:48] attention. So start with the government
center here. Um notable issues there
[1:38:54] mainly is the mechanical systems. Those
were all updated um a while back, but
[1:39:01] they're coming due. The other major
piece of that is the roofing is going to
[1:39:07] be approaching 20 years old at 2033. So
something that we want to start planning
[1:39:13] for holistically. Um, when we look at
just that image there, as you folks
[1:39:18] know, the brown areas were all renovated
as part of the project that is kind of
[1:39:23] wrapping up now and then the rest of
that blue area was kind of that 2013
[1:39:27] project. So, um, just have a handful of
pictures on the next slides that just
[1:39:36] kind of identify some of those areas. Um
obviously county attorney, county
[1:39:42] auditor, there is no deferred
maintenance in those areas just due to
[1:39:46] the last round of projects being done.
As we look at the next slide being the
[1:39:53] probation area, um HVAC systems are
beyond their useful lives. You have your
[1:39:58] ACT or acoustical tile ceilings and a
lot of the finishes in that space that
[1:40:03] are in need of updates. Um only the one
employee bathroom. So, no duplication
[1:40:10] for your analysis, any of those things.
And then the ADA accessibility
[1:40:16] component, a lot of the round door knobs
that don't meet that ADA within there.
[1:40:22] So, Jeff, if you go to the next slide,
we can see some of the photos that just
[1:40:27] kind of accompany that space and some of
the areas that they're using today.
[1:40:33] So, [snorts]
>> and what's the issue with the wood door?
[1:40:36] [clears throat]
>> What's that? What's an issue with a wood
[1:40:38] door?
>> Uh, it's not so much the wood door, it's
[1:40:41] the door knobs.
>> Okay.
[1:40:43] » Yep.
>> So, replacing a door knob would be less
[1:40:45] than replacing a door.
>> Correct.
[1:40:47] » Yep.
>> Thank you.
[1:40:50] » Um, [clears throat] moving down to old
jail area. So, that connection point
[1:40:58] from our courts over to the um LEC
original HVAC systems. Again, we have
[1:41:05] the ceilings and a lot of those finishes
that are um existing jail cells that are
[1:41:11] now used for storage. Um VCT flooring in
poor condition. You got some paint
[1:41:16] peeling and just kind of an area that's
almost been mothballled at this point
[1:41:21] and just used as storage. Um and more or
less a pathway from the LEC over to the
[1:41:28] courts. So
>> really been no deferred maintenance done
[1:41:33] in 20 years.
because it's been it has you know the
[1:41:37] old jail has not been used. It's used as
transport and uh the probation space is
[1:41:43] in the old administrative offices for
the old jail.
[1:41:46] » Correct. So you can just see some of the
photos of that space and and how it's
[1:41:51] being used now. That bottom bottom
middle photo is just storage for jail
[1:41:56] probation for other areas. So
uh going down as we look at the judicial
[1:42:02] area again kind of similar concept HBAC
systems are nearing their life. You have
[1:42:10] some of the finishes. Um one of the
bigger components there is courtrooms
[1:42:16] lack ADA and then the jury room
restrooms that are right off that small
[1:42:22] meeting room don't meet ADA
accessibility within that area.
[1:42:30] So you can just see some of the photos
of that space.
[1:42:35] So when we look at the overall budgets
for that those areas again these are
[1:42:42] 10-year budget forecasts for what is the
deferred maintenance needs of each of
[1:42:48] those areas. So when we look at the
government center that 2.1 million again
[1:42:54] the majority of that is HVAC roofs. We
have the probation area at about
[1:42:59] 428,000.
We have the old jail at about that 1.3
[1:43:04] and then the judicial area at about 1.1
million. So about 5 million in total
[1:43:12] deferred maintenance needs in those
areas for the next 10 years. But that
[1:43:18] doesn't include any updates.
>> That doesn't include any changing of the
[1:43:23] spaces. That's just replacing what is
there like for like. So
[1:43:28] » So the the government center dollars are
identified in the deferred maintenance
[1:43:32] plan that we're working with now and the
other stuff is not really
[1:43:36] [clears throat]
because we haven't looked at that.
[1:43:38] » Yeah. So, knowing that we have an aging
roof and that we have mechanical systems
[1:43:42] that need to be updated, we did update
two major boilers and um but we've got
[1:43:49] some other things that'll be coming up.
So, this number is included in the
[1:43:53] capital plan that we have to this point
on a on a 10-year horizon. The other
[1:43:57] things are not.
>> So, what's that old jail that then that
[1:44:01] one 1.3 million doesn't have anything to
do with any potential changes to that
[1:44:06] space?
>> Nope. that's just fixing what is there
[1:44:09] now. So, we thought this step was an
important gives you that baseline for
[1:44:13] what are our deferred maintenance needs.
Jonathan's next going to talk about what
[1:44:18] are our programming needs and then we'll
come back to you folks with solutions
[1:44:24] both in the short term and the long term
to address not only the deferred
[1:44:29] maintenance but the space needs that
Jonathan's going to walk through here
[1:44:33] now.
>> Oh, go ahead. Well, just so I
[1:44:36] understand, Jeeoff, can you go back to
the slide, previous slide right there?
[1:44:40] Just so I understand better,
we're not using the old jail. Could we,
[1:44:46] if we only looked at this, could you fix
like probation without doing something
[1:44:51] to old jail or is everything
intertwined?
[1:44:54] » We could potentially
>> Perfect question. Uh, I was going to
[1:44:57] give you the caveat that although it
looks like the old jail number could
[1:45:01] just be scrubbed out. I mean, we have to
look at every option. And so, if it's a
[1:45:07] possibility to continue to use that
square footage and repurpose it for
[1:45:11] something else, that's on the table. So,
as far as we're concerned, we're looking
[1:45:16] at, you know, complete reuse and no
additional square footage all the way up
[1:45:21] to take it all down and start over.
That's a whole spectrum of options that
[1:45:25] we're going to be looking at. And
certainly, we hope that somewhere in
[1:45:28] between there, you'll find what works
for, you know, Hubard County. But I
[1:45:32] mean, that's why we're not saying take
this off yet. I think we need to kind of
[1:45:37] fold it all together and determine what
the best approach is from a budget and
[1:45:41] just planning standpoint.
[1:45:45] Meaning, you can't provide better
mechanical systems and probation without
[1:45:50] dealing with them throughout the old
jail.
[1:45:51] » Yeah, that's what I thought.
>> The roof the roofs are tied together.
[1:45:54] » Yeah.
um we can't come up with the actual the
[1:45:57] additional program space and office
space that probation needs primarily
[1:46:01] because moving walls in an old jail is
not like moving walls in a in a office
[1:46:07] building, right?
>> Um there's structural or the
[1:46:10] construction is such that they're really
a challenge. So, um I think we're going
[1:46:15] to do some mental calisthenics when we
get to the end of this once Jonathan
[1:46:18] goes through the the um the program
summaries.
[1:46:24] So, as uh Jason said before, we met with
um basically each of the department
[1:46:30] heads twice and checked in with Jeff on
that, too. Part of what we have is a
[1:46:36] survey that basically asks a bunch of
questions about every individual
[1:46:39] department. Talks about what their
current, you know, operating model is,
[1:46:44] what they foresee as potential future
needs in terms of program changes. I
[1:46:50] mean, you just talked about the, you
know, social services, the Medicaid
[1:46:53] stuff. Those are all things that people
see coming on the horizon that
[1:46:56] potentially have a staff impact and also
then a square footage impact to how much
[1:47:01] space you might need to take up. Um, in
addition to that, we're also looking at,
[1:47:06] you know, what are your current
deficiencies? If you're already in an
[1:47:09] office space that only holds 10 people,
but you got 15, that's something we need
[1:47:14] to recognize, probably needs to be
addressed sooner than later. Um, the way
[1:47:18] that we organized this is we actually
looked at kind of a fiveyear horizon and
[1:47:22] then we'll say like a 15 to 20 year
horizon. Now that means that Jason's
[1:47:27] 10year budget for the deferred
maintenance stuff is somewhere in
[1:47:31] between there. And I think that's just a
matter of us kind of deciding whatever
[1:47:36] the right solution is. We just need to
find the right year to plop that in so
[1:47:39] that we can budget that accordingly in
terms of, you know, escalation and all
[1:47:43] those other things. Um, but the reality
is the five-year need is just a
[1:47:48] short-term like let's try not to do too
much just to accommodate these
[1:47:52] departments for now knowing that it's
not likely that there's going to be a
[1:47:56] big investment until further down the
road. So that's when we looked at that
[1:47:59] 15 to 20 year mark and said okay if
you're thinking about your future what
[1:48:04] does that really look like and what more
you know probably bigger changes might
[1:48:08] need to be made to accommodate those. So
that's what those kind of three
[1:48:12] different categories are. Existing is
just what it is, how much space you're
[1:48:16] taking up now. 5 years is what you think
would look like then. And then 15 to 20
[1:48:21] is if we really like planned for as far
out as we could foreseeably understand
[1:48:26] your department's going to look like.
That's how much square footage we're
[1:48:29] looking at. So, just to go through some
bullet points on the um different
[1:48:33] departments, the county attorney um
obviously another legal assistant, an
[1:48:37] assistant attorney, they kind of um look
at that as needing an additional one
[1:48:42] every 5 years. And so, if you start to
add that up, that's just, you know, an
[1:48:46] office and then a workstation once every
five years. So, taking that into a much
[1:48:52] more detailed program that we have, um,
we're looking at every single individual
[1:48:57] space and assigning a square footage to
that. Um, and those square footages
[1:49:01] aren't based on what the departments had
told us. Those square footages are based
[1:49:06] on what, you know, other similar
counties are using and just sort of
[1:49:11] traditional um, office space design uh,
would utilize. So, if we're saying just
[1:49:17] a standard office, you know, we're
looking at about that 150 square f foot
[1:49:22] number, um we're not just taking
whatever number they've got now and
[1:49:25] saying, "Okay, well, you got 300 square
feet. We'll just kind of translate that
[1:49:29] forward." So, we're trying to use some
just um industry standards for those
[1:49:34] individual spaces. So, um that's all of
these different numbers kind of take
[1:49:38] that into account as we look forward
here. Uh the other one that um the
[1:49:43] county attorney is looking at is an
actual like conference room for their
[1:49:46] whole um department as well as bringing
in some outside parties as well. There's
[1:49:51] just not a great room for them to do
that right now in a private way. Um
[1:49:55] especially if you have a victim or
witness that you're um holding and you
[1:49:59] might have to have some individual
meetings or have them kind of outside of
[1:50:02] the public way until um courts in
session. So um those are the two big
[1:50:07] ones. Uh reality is five-year needs,
there really isn't anything um they're
[1:50:12] going to make do for now. Um but in 15
to 20 years, you're looking at about
[1:50:16] a,400 square foot increase for those
different positions that they're going
[1:50:19] to be looking to add.
[1:50:23] Um going on to court administration and
courts. Um so for this one, um we're
[1:50:29] looking at actually three or four
different groups. So, we're looking at
[1:50:33] court administration, just sort of
general court areas that would support
[1:50:38] um the courtrooms. So, that would be uh
you know, other offices, the judges
[1:50:44] chambers, um conference rooms that
support the courtrooms. Um and then we
[1:50:48] look at just the courts themselves
um purely. Uh, and then the fourth one
[1:50:54] is court security, which oftentimes we
kind of assign that to the sheriff's
[1:50:59] office, but for the purposes of today
because it's within this footprint,
[1:51:03] we're looking at the court security
piece of this as well. Um, so the
[1:51:07] numbers at the bottom of this one are
actually inaccurate because they only
[1:51:11] take into account just like the court
administration piece. Um, so I'm going
[1:51:15] to give you the numbers and then we can
update this slide for um, future
[1:51:18] purposes. But um just the bullet points
on it providing some separate offices
[1:51:23] for court administrator and court
supervisor. Um they're combined right
[1:51:27] now having um again I think Jason
touched on this before because there's
[1:51:31] kind of an overlap between uh deferred
maintenance and program needs when you
[1:51:36] have accessibility issues. Um so that's
something that certainly is a program
[1:51:40] issue as well and a square footage
issue. Once you start adding ramps to a
[1:51:44] courtroom and um the necessary turning
radius for wheelchairs and things like
[1:51:48] that, the courtroom just inherently is
going to get bigger. Um and then we've
[1:51:53] got just public counter kiosk queuing,
security glazing is improvement to that
[1:51:57] whole public area. Um and then more
visual privacy between the judges
[1:52:02] chambers and the sidewalk by probation
entry. So just sort of some security
[1:52:06] issues that um could potentially have a
space impact as well. Um, again, not
[1:52:11] every single one of these means that
there's more square footage. Um, it's
[1:52:14] just a deficiency in how it's organized
right now that if we do some sort of
[1:52:19] rethinking of how we organize their
space, uh, we'll try to take this into
[1:52:23] account and it may or may not have a
square footage impact overall. Um, if we
[1:52:28] look at the the big numbers, I'll say
from all of courts, so all four of those
[1:52:32] groups that I talked about, um, right
now you're at about 7,500 square ft. um
[1:52:38] the five-year need doesn't change at
all. There's maybe like one additional
[1:52:41] office, so it's only about a 40 square
foot change. Um but then in the 15 to 20
[1:52:47] year need, if we're looking at actually
providing a courtroom that provides for
[1:52:52] the full jury box, um all the
accessibility needs with the ramping and
[1:52:57] the turning radius and everything that's
there, as well as supporting a smaller
[1:53:01] courtroom that's actually a little bit
more user friendly for, um family court
[1:53:05] and other things like that. Um then
we're going from the 7500 that I said up
[1:53:10] to about 17,000 and that accommodates um
additional space for court security um
[1:53:17] expanded courtroom which is the biggest
component of that. Um and then some
[1:53:22] additional offices for court
administration and some different um
[1:53:25] additional conference rooms for um just
to support that whole courts area,
[1:53:30] especially when you have attorneys or um
defendants coming out and having some
[1:53:35] breakout meetings during se um while
court's in session. Um right now you're
[1:53:40] a little bit short on having those
meeting rooms to accommodate those sort
[1:53:43] of private meetings and that can create
some just privacy and security
[1:53:47] conflicts. Is the court meeting only in
person now or are they doing hybrid?
[1:53:52] » They're do I would say hybrid is the
model that they're taking right now. So
[1:53:55] there's definitely still a lot of remote
hearings and things like that. Um but
[1:53:59] when you do have to have um an in person
which can be requested by either party
[1:54:05] um or if it's a full jury trial um then
you would have to use that full
[1:54:10] courtroom and um just to support that
you know in the future that's where
[1:54:15] having that accessibility and some of
those other sighteline and security
[1:54:18] things I think updated would be
beneficial.
[1:54:23] So that's where those numbers set. Uh
moving forward to
[1:54:29] um county attorneys
>> going the opposite way.
[1:54:33] » Oh yeah, I got to go backwards now.
Sorry.
[1:54:39] Uh so then to probation
um you know right now looking at the
[1:54:45] their need is a minimum of about seven
private offices. Um and so that's a more
[1:54:50] immediate need for them right now. um
which means they're probably one of the
[1:54:55] departments here that actually does jump
up in that fiveyear mark. Um but that
[1:54:59] doesn't change much out to the long
term. Um just because their needs are
[1:55:04] already more immediate with the number
of staff and the clients that they have.
[1:55:08] Um so providing a minimum of seven
private offices. Um having a conference
[1:55:12] room for a larger group of 12 to 14
people. Um the need for an additional
[1:55:18] smaller interview room. Um, and that has
to have some of that visibility and
[1:55:23] safety um, embedded into it. Uh, and
then right now the um, UA testing that
[1:55:29] they do is actually in the staff
bathroom as well. Um, which, you know,
[1:55:35] in general is just not a great idea. Um,
and not real kosher, I would say, but it
[1:55:40] also just, um, creates some security
issues and things like that, too. if you
[1:55:44] have staff that have to go somewhere
else to use the bathroom while you have
[1:55:47] a client in there and you're doing UA
testing, um it just creates conflict.
[1:55:51] So, traditionally, most counties would
have a separated um public and um UA
[1:55:57] toilet or staff and UA toilet to be able
to do that in a more secure manner. Um
[1:56:01] and there's just um again, we we wrote
down plumbing and hot water issues
[1:56:06] within the current space. Obviously,
those are things that Jason picked up in
[1:56:09] his deferred maintenance stuff, but as
we go through these interviews,
[1:56:13] occasionally they'll bring up other
things and we just document it just to
[1:56:16] make sure that it's been written down.
So, again, the the jump between now and
[1:56:20] that 5-year need goes from around 1,900
up to about 3,000. Um, again, most of
[1:56:26] that is just the conference room and the
additional staff offices. Uh, and then
[1:56:30] there's really not much change between
there and that 15 to 20 year need.
[1:56:39] So, moving on to the sheriff's office.
Again, we we only really scratched the
[1:56:44] surface of this knowing that uh much of
their space has already been sort of
[1:56:48] updated and we only really looked at the
basement and kind of where the EOC and
[1:56:55] um emergency management and some of
their training rooms are to try to
[1:56:58] respect the fact that that's something
that just wasn't addressed in the last
[1:57:02] project. Um so the reality is their
needs right now are to have a separate
[1:57:06] emergency management um defensive
tactics and classroom training
[1:57:10] functions. Um having sort of a
dualpurpose space that creates a
[1:57:15] training classroom. Um but also provides
for an area where you can roll out some
[1:57:20] mats and do some of that DT training is
a pretty um I would say widely used
[1:57:25] model right now throughout Minnesota.
Just be able to not have to double up
[1:57:29] square footage. you're creating a whole
separate like let's say wrestling room
[1:57:32] and meeting room and this way you can
kind of do both if you've got those mats
[1:57:36] that can kind of roll up. So I think
that was a good idea that we talked
[1:57:40] about with them to do that combined and
doesn't really have any square footage
[1:57:44] effect u but then also creating some
existing space um for uh the needs for
[1:57:49] cubicles and and an emergency management
office that was separated from that
[1:57:54] area. So really, they can do most of
that within the space that there that is
[1:57:58] there now, which is why the square
footage doesn't change. Um, it would
[1:58:01] just require some additional remodeling
and adding some walls and things like
[1:58:05] that. So, it could be done pretty
modestly. Again, if something were to
[1:58:10] change with that overall square footage
in the future, this would need to be
[1:58:14] replaced with something else.
[1:58:20] And then lastly, um, as we said, I don't
know that there was a, um, huge push to
[1:58:26] change anything with human services, but
at the same time, um, we kind of
[1:58:30] advocated to look at it only because
they're connected to all these other
[1:58:34] spaces. And if we were going to talk to
all those other departments, only made
[1:58:38] sense to have them be a part of this.
and we knew if there was going to be
[1:58:41] some accommodation in 15 to 20 years, we
don't want to ignore that and not have
[1:58:46] that be a part of this process. Um the
reality is if you start to look at the
[1:58:51] growth that they've seen um historically
and potentially project out what some of
[1:58:57] those programs might be added in the
future, there's definitely some square
[1:59:00] footage added and most of that is going
to be staff space. Now, I think um the
[1:59:06] five of you, probably even more so than
me, see all the changes that happen
[1:59:09] within social services depending on what
federal or state programs come in and
[1:59:13] out all the time. Um but it's hard to
really predict that you're going to
[1:59:18] shrink. Um it's easy to try to plan for
that. You probably might need some
[1:59:23] additional square footage in the future.
Um that just seems to be the history.
[1:59:27] And so we kind of um talked through the
different programs that could
[1:59:32] potentially be changing for the ones
that they can see right now on the
[1:59:34] horizon. Um but then certainly they've
got some predictions about okay in 10
[1:59:40] years we've added five people so let's
at least plan for four or five people in
[1:59:44] the next 10 years. So some of this is
knowing what's happening in the future
[1:59:49] and some of this is making an educated
guess knowing what could potentially
[1:59:53] happen to this department. I would say
that's true for all of these groups. Um,
[1:59:57] and that's why at this 5-year mark when
you hit that, uh, it would make sense to
[2:00:02] go back to this planning exercise and
say, okay, are we still at the same mark
[2:00:07] that we thought we were or do we have to
sort of readjust the plan? Now, it might
[2:00:11] mean that you probably have a good idea
of what you wanted to do within that 15
[2:00:16] to 20 years. um but it could be modified
potentially with more real time data
[2:00:21] based on that fiveyear those five-year
numbers. So it isn't to say that it
[2:00:26] wouldn't change or wouldn't change. It's
just a good idea always I would say to
[2:00:30] look back at that and make sure that
you're not off the mark. Um for human
[2:00:35] services again private office for income
maintenance supervisor
[2:00:39] three to four shared spaces for hoteling
work points again they're continuing to
[2:00:44] look at doing remote working and so we
weren't going to change that and just
[2:00:48] add a bunch of offices continuing using
that model but knowing that they do
[2:00:52] still needed landing pad sometimes uh
and then monitoring equipment to
[2:00:57] visitation rooms in the LACE basement um
and allow limited growth capacity for
[2:01:02] child production and adult service. So,
there's just some modest growth in all
[2:01:07] these different departments. But again,
when you're looking at staff space and
[2:01:10] meeting rooms, it does jump from 13,700
up to about 17,000 square ft. So, the
[2:01:18] staff numbers are really more so what
impacts that than anything else along
[2:01:22] with, like I said, some additional
conference rooms and things like that.
[2:01:25] » I would probably additionally highlight
the next four points. Um
[2:01:32] the uh improve staff entry and
separation from public circulation and
[2:01:36] resolve lobby privacy and restroom
conflicts. That's just
[2:01:40] poor design, you know, and and I think
everybody knows that that was designed
[2:01:45] to be one thing and then it was made
into another thing and just kind of made
[2:01:48] to work. Um and those are things that
really wouldn't be done unless it was
[2:01:54] part of a larger project. Um, but the
one thing on here that that Michael and
[2:02:01] I have talked about is possibly going
through and doing a a facelift on the
[2:02:05] break room, which would actually have
pretty significant impact on morale over
[2:02:08] there. So, um, I might be putting that
on the 28 plan,
[2:02:14] but these these are all
[2:02:18] this this space hasn't been designed.
It's just evolved over time. And um and
[2:02:25] there's there's ways where it could be
done it could be done better, but we
[2:02:29] have the stairways and the elevator all
dump into the same place and the
[2:02:34] employees and the and the um um clients
are all in the same pl in the same
[2:02:40] spaces and it's just not very well
controlled. So it is something worth
[2:02:45] considering.
Um he's just the messenger when he's
[2:02:49] saying that we're projecting for
additional staff over the five and 10
[2:02:52] year period. He's just doing math. He's
not making a programmatic decision. So,
[2:02:57] » thanks.
>> Don't [laughter] don't hold that against
[2:03:00] him.
[2:03:04] » So, as we look at, you know, really what
are the the next steps in this is, you
[2:03:08] know, how can we meet, as Jonathan said,
the five-year the short-term needs, you
[2:03:14] know, Mark probation's a a good example
of that. Is there something that we can
[2:03:18] do there for renovations in the short
term that are going to meet the needs
[2:03:21] and and not cost a ton? Um, and then
what are that what is that right 15 to
[2:03:29] 20 year plan? Can we renovate the
existing spaces that are there and fit
[2:03:36] everybody? Do we need some additions or
does it look like we demo and
[2:03:42] reconstruct kind of that connection
point between
[2:03:47] the current government center over to
the LEC? So, those are all options that
[2:03:55] we're going to be exploring and bringing
back to you folks just for reference and
[2:04:00] for knowledge. So you'll have each kind
of one of those stepping points as you
[2:04:06] look to the future. Again, you're not
making any decisions on that. Just going
[2:04:10] through what is the right long-term plan
for these areas of our facility that are
[2:04:16] behind me here. So,
>> so we've talked about this for a number
[2:04:22] of years and if we could spend $250,000
and make probation the space that it
[2:04:27] needs to accommodate that, we would do
that because
[2:04:33] their collocation between the courts and
the law enforcement center and and
[2:04:37] accessibility and convenience for
everybody makes all kinds of sense. When
[2:04:41] we were looking through this, we were
really having a hard time. And you'll
[2:04:45] see this when we program it out trying
to carve out another 1,200 square feet
[2:04:50] out of the existing building um either
from jail pods or from the old Sallyport
[2:04:57] or from some of the other spaces um gets
to be more expensive than than just
[2:05:03] moving walls was on the second floor
when we did this. Um, and then thinking
[2:05:09] about long-term needs of court
administration. Well, we counties
[2:05:14] another one of those unfunded mandates.
We have to provide adequate space for
[2:05:18] them. But at what point do we continue
to
[2:05:23] um dress up the old the old building and
what at what point do we have to plan
[2:05:27] for the long-term um long-term goal?
We have a number on our capital plan pol
[2:05:35] capital plan projects list. It's just
outside of the 10-year horizon, right?
[2:05:38] We we've identified that $18 million
project and just put it out there just
[2:05:43] looming just off the edge of the page.
And um
[2:05:48] and and and we know that that's
potentially the case. What I will say is
[2:05:53] is short of the board wanting to add a
million and a half dollars to debt
[2:05:56] service to what we currently have, we
have to wait till 2034,
[2:06:02] 2035 before we could consider something
like that because that's about the point
[2:06:06] in time we could refinance the debt we
just took on and fold in some
[2:06:12] additional. So, this is a really good
time to be doing a 10-year plan because
[2:06:16] we're or a 20-year plan with this kind
of forgotten space in the middle because
[2:06:21] financially we're not in a position to
do anything other than this background
[2:06:24] work and kind of identify priorities and
figure out how it fits into a long range
[2:06:30] financial plan. there are going to be,
if nothing else,
[2:06:35] um, you know, millions of dollars worth
of infrastructure needs on those old
[2:06:40] buildings just to make them continue to
work beyond the next 5 to 10 years. And
[2:06:44] that's one of the points that argues in
favor of potentially doing a remodel or
[2:06:49] even a a replacement of some of those
spaces.
[2:06:54] And somebody asked me the case, well,
what do you do with courts? How do you
[2:06:57] displace them? And and I I just get this
idea the way that ICS did the last
[2:07:02] project for us that we could treat the
old jail and the court space as separate
[2:07:07] spaces.
Um demolish one, build one, relocate,
[2:07:12] demolish the other one, build that other
one, and then, you know, complete it. It
[2:07:16] wouldn't be a 24 to 30month project.
It'd be a 36 to 40month project to do it
[2:07:22] that way. Um, but that's how we would
accommodate that without anybody
[2:07:26] actually being displaced. Um, just from
a guess
[2:07:32] and you saw in the old in the pictures
you can see that we definitely have two
[2:07:35] different buildings there that were
built at different times. So that's what
[2:07:39] the we're interested in your comments,
your questions, uh, thoughts about what
[2:07:44] you want to see next. Um, and our the
charge that I've given them is what
[2:07:51] could we do within our existing annual
capital project dollars that would make
[2:07:56] it better? And we're going to come up
with a short list. What could we do to
[2:08:01] actually make the space more usable than
it is now, which is that middle piece,
[2:08:05] which is going to be we're going to find
out it's going to be more expensive, I
[2:08:08] think, than than the good it will
produce.
[2:08:12] Um, but that's that's the goal is to
bring back those things in more detail
[2:08:16] than than the general comments we've
made. So, if you have questions about
[2:08:21] the process to this point, Mark's got
any comments.
[2:08:28] » Yeah. Uh, one question. It appears from
from a potential design that there will
[2:08:34] be two conference bait conference rooms
pretty close to each other. one
[2:08:39] probation, one attorney. I mean,
can can things be streamlined a little
[2:08:45] bit so the lights will be on in one room
a little bit longer?
[2:08:50] » Maybe.
[laughter]
[2:08:53] I haven't designed anything yet. So,
>> it's like using a piece of equipment
[2:08:57] that when so uh solid waste was here,
you know, that that that skiitter being
[2:09:02] used for more than one item.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean on once we start kind
[2:09:07] of putting the puzzle pieces back
together again here, you know, we strip
[2:09:12] it all apart and we see what the overall
is and then when we start trying to
[2:09:15] build it back up again, if we find that
there's those overlaps, then we need to
[2:09:19] go back to those departments and say,
can you share this space? And the answer
[2:09:23] is either yes or no. And if the answer
is no, there's usually compelling reason
[2:09:26] as to why they can't. A lot of it comes
down to security and safety. Uh but
[2:09:31] certainly those are things that we would
vet through Jeff and potentially, you
[2:09:35] know, other committee efforts uh to get
to the right number. But yeah, we
[2:09:40] wouldn't ignore those kind of overlap
pieces.
[2:09:44] » We want to make sure it's efficient as
well and getting used as much of the day
[2:09:48] as it can be. You know,
>> empty spaces is not good use of money.
[2:09:54] » So,
>> so we've got all those functions now,
[2:09:56] but the attorney's over here and
probation's over there and courts over
[2:10:00] here. there's no adjacency to them. If
you put those adjacent spaces in the
[2:10:04] middle, they could be much more easily
shared. Um, but at the same point in
[2:10:09] time, when the attorneys are saying, "We
need a space that is kind of like our
[2:10:13] space for our this size," um, that's,
you know,
[2:10:21] that's something that's hard to share.
But when they talk about needing
[2:10:24] interview rooms for and private rooms
for families and consultation, those are
[2:10:28] things that can be shared with courts on
a calendar. You know, right now we have
[2:10:32] three small we had two two small rooms
downstairs and we divided into three.
[2:10:36] Well, that gives us more capacity
because typically you don't have more
[2:10:39] than three or four people in a room like
that. And if we had five or six of those
[2:10:44] rooms instead of three and they were
serving multiple functions, they would
[2:10:49] probably be sufficient. um putting these
all together. And yes, some of these
[2:10:54] will blend into each other if we have an
opportunity to program something where
[2:10:59] the shared space is in the middle of all
the users.
[2:11:08] » Any other questions?
[2:11:12] » Thank you guys. What's our next step in
timeline? Do we know? Do we remember? uh
[2:11:16] plan on coming back October with some
additional options.
[2:11:21] » Okay.
>> So, probably see us again in October.
[2:11:24] That probably won't be the final, but
just another update for you folks as we
[2:11:29] go through the process.
[2:11:33] » Sounds good.
>> Thank you all. Thank you. Appreciate it.
[2:11:39] » Thanks for shifting the agenda for me,
too.
[2:11:42] » No problem.
It timing worked out just fine.
[2:11:45] » Yeah.
>> Anything else, Jeff?
[2:11:49] » Nothing.
>> All right. Motion to adjurnn.
[2:11:53] » I move.
>> This is t second.
[2:11:56] » All in favor?
>> I opposed or journ.
[2:12:04] » So, do we have general government?
>> We are having a personnel committee
[2:12:08] meeting.