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Okay.

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Hello, it is Monday, June 8th, 6:00. I'd
like to welcome everyone to the City of

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Juneau Joint Common Council Utility
Commission agenda.

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Um
Would you like to take roll call,

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please?
Chapman?

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» Here.
>> Seyfried?

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» Here.
>> Justin?

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» Here.
>> Lee?

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» Here.
>> Schoenauer?

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Wagner?
>> Here.

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» Uh Utility Commission members, Apple?
>> Here.

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» Coons?
>> Here.

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» And Cannon?

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Okay. So, with roll call being taken,
training presentation by Brian Goodman,

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attorney with Boardman Clark.
And I think I will just let you Does

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everyone have one of these?
>> Yes.

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» Okay.
>> I have some extras on that chair in case

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people come late.
>> I'll let you take it away.

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» All right. Well, hello everyone. It's
It's nice to meet you in person. I've

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been uh
over the phone and emailing with with

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other people in in the in the city.
Uh and it's my pleasure to be here

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tonight to kind of talk proactively
about some issues. Um I'm kind of

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calling this governance training, sort
of how the city needs to operate. Um

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those of you who um have been in uh
leadership positions or elected

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officials um
in the last uh few years, you may know

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my uh former colleague Steve Zaugg.
Steve Zaugg has retired. He officially

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has. As far as I know, he is actually
retiring and not and not hanging on. Um

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so, it was my pleasure to to do uh
transition and and help out the city uh

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once he has retired. So, I've been doing
this for

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a couple years and uh
this is just I guess it's an opportunity

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for me to come out, meet everyone, talk
about some things before I'm coming out

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for like a whole thing, right? So, it's
good It's good to do that. Um you know,

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as was putting together the materials I
was um

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you know, just kind of think through the
kinds of stuff that come up on a

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day-to-day basis so we can set a good
foundation. Um, I know some of you are

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are newer members and obviously we just
had an election and so it's just a

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perfect time to to kind of start start
with some education. I also think this

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is the first of a two-part series I'll
be doing. So, this one is broadly

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governance and then I think I'm coming
back to do it a very specific employment

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one because that's just a topic in and
of itself. So, if you're like, "How come

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we're not talking about employment?"
That's next.

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Um, I'm happy to take questions as we
go. Feel free to raise your hand or just

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shout them out. You're not going to
throw me. I used to be a middle school

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teacher. I get it.
All right.

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So, I like to start with with the oath
of office because it's it's the thing

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that that we all do and sometimes we do
it without thinking about it, right? We

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just say the words. Um
also a little twist.

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The word I'm quoting is actually the
oral version of the oath. The written

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oath that you sign actually has
different words in it. I don't know why

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the legislature has two different
versions of the oath, but they do. Uh,

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and the oral version
includes that you will faithfully and

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impartially discharge the duties of your
office. Uh, that impartiality is only

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referenced in the oral oath,
>> [clears throat]

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» uh, but I think it's important to
highlight that because impartiality is

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one of the most important concepts for
any elected or appointed official. Uh,

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you have to see the problem from the
lens of the community as a whole and not

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as your personal um
objectives. And that's that's hard to

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do, uh, especially if it's something
that is personal to you, something that

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you're passionate about. Uh, it's hard
to set to create some space and think of

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the big picture. And that's one of the
things I'm going to be talking about

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today is how do we remain impartial? How
do we avoid having a conflict of

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interest or a bias in a way that would
affect our ability to do our jobs. And

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at at the most extreme, you there's
certain situations where you cannot have

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bias. And if you have bias, you would
have to recuse yourself from the

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discussion and the vote. Um an example
might be let's say

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there was a termination hearing. Well,
start termination recommendation was

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that the personnel committee, they would
have to be impartial to make that

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decision. Then let's say there was a
grievance filed and it went through the

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process, then the council would have to
be the final decision-maker on the

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termination grievance. And you would
have to be impartial in order to hear

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that grievance and decide what the
outcome's going to be. If you do not

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recuse yourself, the risk is high
because the the remedy is that the

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employee that that was terminated could
potentially raise a due process this

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claim. And said that I had the right to
an impartial hearing on this matter and

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I that wasn't the case. They knew
you know, they were heavily involved

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with the situation from the inception.
Uh and that can then lead to, aside from

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monetary damages, the decision being
overturned. So, the more important the

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decision, the more important it is that
you remain free from bias so you can

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make those high-stakes, really important
decisions. And and hopefully you're

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going oh, well, that never that's never
going to happen. I don't have to worry

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about that. I hope that's true.
But one of the challenges is you don't

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get to know which
which situation might escalate to the

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point of an appeal before the council or
an appeal before a committee. And that's

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why I start the conversation right here
and right now because you you frame it

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the way
that's way from the beginning and it

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doesn't matter how high-stakes or how
far the matter goes, you will remain

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impartial.
One of the things to keep in mind about

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elected officials, especially but also
um appointed officials, is that you're a

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trustee of taxpayer money, right? With
that comes what we call a fiduciary

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responsibility. A fiduciary duty is like
the highest duty you can have under the

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law. It's the same kind of duty that
your stockbroker might have over what

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investments you make, right? And they
can't just

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take any of your money, right? That's
not legal. Sim- Similarly here, you're

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in charge of the city's money and you
have to make sure that you're always

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ensuring that it is spent in the way
that is best for the community. Now, you

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get to bring your personal beliefs in
how that money should be spent, right?

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That's part of the democratic process,
but there's a difference between I have

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um
uh

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if you want to call it a
a platform, right? That you might have

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run on a certain issues that I was told
to raise. That's okay.

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What's not okay is when you have a bias
of oh, I was involved in that, or oh,

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that was my kid that uh you know, got
hit by the snowplow. I'm just making

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things up, right? But you have to know
those those potential areas. And then in

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a small community like this, where I
know there's a lot of family members, a

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lot of relatives, a lot of people that
go back a lot of years, the potential

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for bias is just higher and you have to
be more careful about that. Um I love uh

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some of my smaller municipal clients. I
I think that they have something really

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special. But when it comes to bias, it's
really hard cuz they're like, oh yep,

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that was my great uncle and we've been
at it ever since they put a fence over

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our yard and took an extra 500 ft of our
territory.

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That's that's a thing that I've actually
had someone have a

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complete bias over and they're like,
okay, well, maybe I shouldn't be voting

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on their termination.
Um when we talk about your obligations

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to the community, it's important to also
talk about your authority. What power do

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you have?
And when it comes to

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the commissioners or it comes to the
council members, you don't have any

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power as an individual.
So one of you can't do anything. There's

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slight nuances if you might happen to be
a

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committee chair or something like that,
but in your role as a as a council

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member, you don't have the authority to
do anything. You're just a person who

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has ideas.
When you come together in a full council

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meeting,
that is where the authority comes

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together. You can come together and vote
on certain

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actions, and those actions carry the
force of of law. They are what will be

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done.
And that is powerful.

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Uh similarly, the utility commission
works the same way. We come together and

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when we vote, we can do things. As
individuals, we can't really do things.

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Um and that's just really important to
know. And and

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when we talk about council members and
and commission members, obviously the

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mayor has slightly different powers. The
mayor does have the authority to do

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certain things on her own.
Um but that does not apply to to just

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aldermen, right? Similarly, the the the
chair of the commission has some

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authorities that that rest just with the
chair.

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So,
what does that mean, right? It means

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that you have to come together in a
properly noticed meeting. And a properly

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noticed meeting means it's going to say
what you're talking about, right? Not

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just new business, old business, but
rather what are we talking about

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tonight? And then you act on that,
right? You talk about it, you act on it.

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Your actions become the voice of the
council.

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And that's how the council speaks.
Otherwise, there's seven different

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people saying slightly different things.
You can't actually really speak on

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behalf of the council. Now, the mayor
can speak on behalf of of the city as a

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whole. Even the in the clerk sometimes
has the opportunity to speak and

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from the city as a whole, but not as on
behalf of the council.

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That no one has that authority
individually to do that.

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Unless you give them that power, right?
You decide, "Okay, we're going to do

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this and we're going to designate this
person to talk about it." You can do

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that.
Um so,

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what happens if you as an individual
commissioner, an individual councilor,

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gets a complaint from the public, right?
Could be about anything. They forgot to

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plow my street.
Um I

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you know, they my my garbage is is
picked up late or they forgot. Uh

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they get these all the time.
As a council member,

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you don't solve that problem.
You direct You either call the person

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who has the authority to fix the problem
or you connect the citizen to the person

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who can solve the problem. Um rather
than

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jumping in and just doing it yourself.
And you might be going, "Well, it's

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simple. It's one phone call, right?"
I don't have any problem with any

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individual phone call. The the problem
that sometimes happens though is there

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are thousands of phone calls throughout
the course of your term of office. And

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if you are addressing each one, all of a
sudden,

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it's like you're administering the
functions of the city rather than

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governing.
And and that temptation is all the

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greater in a small community. You know
what I mean? Of course they came to me.

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I was their neighbor. Why would I call
someone else?

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But that's how the government is
designed to work is that

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Yeah, I mean you are the voice of the
community and you should hear their

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concerns and then direct them to the
person who can help. And you can follow

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up, too. "Hey, did that did you ever get
up to fix the garbage issue?" If they

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did, great. If they didn't, then go
right back to the person who's supposed

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to fix it and say they didn't fix it.
And if they still didn't fix it, well,

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now we've got a performance problem,
right? And and that would get referred,

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most likely, to personnel or the next
supervisor if there's a couple layers of

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employment in there.
But that's a rare situation. Most of the

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time, they will they will handle the
issue.

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Um
the other problem that can happen with

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even these smaller issues, smaller
issues can become big issues, right? If

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If one day it's my my road didn't get
plowed, the next day it could be road

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didn't get plowed and I swerved out on
the ice that formed underneath the snow,

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and now I've got a claim, right? And I'm
going to seek liability. All of a

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sudden,
you are now in the mix of something that

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is
turned high-stakes.

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And if you get too involved on the front
end, you may be biased at the end of the

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process, and that's where things can get
sticky. So, let's say that turned into a

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suit against the city, and they the
council had a vote on whether or not to

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pay a settlement based on that.
You have to be able to look at that

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impartially on behalf of the city as a
whole, not I'm going to look really bad

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if if we if we don't pay this, or we
can't pay this. I don't want to look bad

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cuz I handled it to start.
That all ties into that idea of your

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fiduciary responsibility to the
community as a whole. And I'm trying to

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put it in terms of of hands-on things
that could create that bias. I can give

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you all sorts of crazy hypotheticals,
but I I want to ground it in what you're

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likely to get, which isn't going to be a
lot of really heavy stuff. It's going to

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be occasional concern, and that's we
want to follow this process for the

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lowest possible stakes, so that when we
do the highest possible stakes, we can

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credibly say, "We followed our process."
And if you don't do that in something

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high-stakes, that's a problem, right? We
have to follow the process. And so, part

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of what I'm doing today is talking about
the process.

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Um
I want to talk about other forms of of

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complaints that you may get. At the
beginning of council meetings, you have

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a public comment period. You guys call
it public appearances, right?

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Great opportunity to hear from community
members who have concerns.

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But they're just that. They're listening
sessions. They're not designed for you

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to then immediately take on that cause.
There's a couple reasons you don't

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immediately take on that cause. One, you
didn't notice it on the meeting. So, the

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open meetings law won't let you address
it that night.

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And two,
that person may be going around the

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chain of command. The person might say,
"Ah, that department head doesn't like

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me." Or that um
um committee

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chair doesn't like me. So, I'm going
straight to the to the council.

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If the word gets out in the community
that the way to get things done is to

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come to the public appearances and tell
the council

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your problem, you guys will be running
this town one meeting at a time and all

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of a sudden you'll have 4-hour meetings
three times a week, right? And that's

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not an exaggeration, that's what
happens. The meetings get longer or they

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get more frequent because all these
problems are coming to you.

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One of the most important things that
the council does is set up a system so

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that they get the right people to solve
these problems for you. And if they

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don't do it right, that's where you have
a performance improvement system and

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evaluation system to hold those people
that you've in charged with that

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authority accountable.
Again, this is so much easier to say in

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theory than in practice. Cuz in
practice, when someone doesn't do what

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you think they should do, it's going to
feel a certain way. And you're going to

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want to
um

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make sure it gets done. And you have to
commit to the process or again,

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you're going to be involved in every
minor decision within the city, and

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that's going to be tedious and
inefficient. Not to mention, very much

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just not your job.
So,

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let's talk about how
you approach

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issues, right? Starts with with a
council agenda or commission agenda,

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right? And that agenda has to outline
what you're going to talk about and act

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on at that meeting.
So, usually it is set up between the

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clerk and the mayor,
with input from others as appropriate,

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but once that the agenda is set or 24
hours before the meeting hits, and you

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can't change it anymore.
And so, it's important that we recognize

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that one of the biggest process points
we have is the agenda itself. The agenda

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needs to represent the things that we
need to deal with. If this issue you're

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passionate about is not on the agenda,
you can't talk about it. Not at a

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meeting. You The only thing you could
talk about is, "I want to get this on

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the meeting." Right? As opposed to
getting into what that actual substance

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is. It's really important that you keep
that in mind cuz again, that's that's

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the process, and and it's not only is it
an orderly process designed for good

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governance, it's the law. The open
meetings law requires you to post public

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meeting notices with enough specificity
that a member of the public can come in,

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look at the agenda, and go, "Oh, I know
what you guys are going to be talking

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about."
What I sometimes see is

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template agendas that have certain
things that are just kind of always

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there.
If you have certain things that are just

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kind of always there, you got to
question yourself. Because

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what is it that we're talking about?
Things like,

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"Committee report." Right? Well, what
does that mean? You have an ordinance

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that tells you what it means, and I'm
going to talk about it.

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If you have other standing items like
new business,

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well, that doesn't tell me anything,
right? New business, what is that new

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business? Put it on the agenda. If not,
it can't Only new business that's going

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to come before you is, "Hey, I want to
put this on the next meeting."

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And I think that's just important to
keep in mind. That's That's the process

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by which this works.
Members of the public who um may have

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items that they want addressed, again,
they don't have the authority to demand

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that it be on a council agenda.
Um they can talk about their issue to

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the council during public appearances.
But other than that, they have no

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authority to make you do anything.
There'll be times where you'll want to

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take what they say very seriously and
and address it. There'll be times where

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you've already done that three times and
they're just not getting it. You aren't

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obligated to continue to engage in a in
a dialogue over that. You've done what

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is going to be done. The answer is
resolved. There's nothing further to

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discuss. Thank you for your time.
You can't actually stop them from coming

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and talking, but you can don't have to
do anything more than that.

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Um so And when they're speaking uh and
members of the public at uh public

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appearances, they can only um address
the body as a whole.

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So if if someone uh is coming to
personal appearances or public

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appearances and they just start trashing
an individual person,

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they're out they're out of order and
they have to direct it to the council.

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Council members, I wish to lodge this
concern. If instead they go, "Mayor,

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you're doing everything wrong." That's
incorrect. Or they turn and face someone

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00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,920
in the audience, right? You know, like
department head, this is you. That's

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wrong.
That's not the process. Public

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appearances is a public appearance
before the council. And And that again,

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it's easy to kind of let that slip over
time, but it's important because it's a

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way to kind of diffuse some of the
tension that comes from a public

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scorning of an individual.
And so, enforcing that requirement of

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attention attention, you know, I need
you to address the body as a whole, is

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is just one of several subtle things you
can do to kind of lower the temperature

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on on passionate members of the public
speaking public appearances.

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So,
one of the other questions I often get

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about setting the agenda and setting the
stuff that wants to be done, is there

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people who are like, "Hey, put put
basketball on the agenda."

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What basketball? Wreck it in? Okay, so
you were saying restrooms of wreck it

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00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:48,360
in. What about it? You have to, in order
to get something on the agenda, have

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enough specifics that we can write it on
the agenda sufficiently under the law.

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The public meetings law, the open
meetings law, requires you to state the

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00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,520
agenda items with sufficient
specificity. You might be going, "Well,

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00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,800
what is that?" Well, there's various
factors

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that establish it. There was a Supreme
Court case that that really helped

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00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:15,440
establish them. But the basic elements
of it are, the more important the issue,

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the more detail you need to have in the
notice. So, if you were just talking

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00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,360
about the need for volunteers for a
basketball tournament on Friday, you

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probably don't have to say all that in
the agenda. If it's, "We're going to

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eliminate the basketball program, and
this is one of our most beloved

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programs," probably need to notice it
not just basketball program, but

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action and possible discussion about the
elimination of the basketball team.

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Which
you're going to be like, "But then

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they're going to lose their minds." And
my answer to that is, that's the point

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00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,000
of the open meetings law,
right? So that they can see it, and if

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00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,480
they feel a certain way about the
topics, they can come to public

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appearances, or they can just come and
watch and hear what you have to say.

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And that's why you need to have those
those specifics. So, it's one of those

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00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:04,280
issues that can get over time a little
bit watered down. And some of you might

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00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,600
be like, "Well, I don't It's not my job
to write the agendas, right? That's

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00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,880
Megan's job, you know, with consultation
the mayor. But you have to get the

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information to her that it gets drafted
correctly. And again,

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sometimes that means you have to provide
more detail.

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Um [clears throat]
I noticed that you guys have a in your

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ordinances kind of a standard layout for
for meeting structure. One of those is

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new business, old business.
Uh that's a traditional way of holding a

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meeting that that goes back many years.
It's the way it's always been done.

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But the open meetings law doesn't
require that at all. The only thing open

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meetings law requires is that you say
what we're going to be doing, whether

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that's old business or new business,
it's what you're doing. And that's all

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00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:52,480
that it needs to clarify. If there isn't
something specifically noticed as old

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business or specifically noticed as new
business, you can't talk about it

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anyway. So it's a way of
organizing your agenda, but you may find

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that actually it's more complicated than
than it would appear. Um you could

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still, for example, eliminate old
business, new business

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just to have a standard agenda. And
things that are follow-ups, old business

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00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:18,560
if you will, they can go first. There's
nothing wrong with that. But you don't

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under law have to separate it into old
business and new business. That's just a

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00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,440
tradition. Some traditions are good.
Some other traditions are, you know

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what? Let's think about why we're doing
that anymore. And maybe that's just

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something we can we could eliminate when
we change our potential ordinances.

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Um some of the other things that are in
your ordinances is you do have an

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ordinance on public appearances. Um one
of the things I I have seen over the

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past few years, uh frankly it's been
since COVID where there's been a lot of

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00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:50,000
passion about um of various parts of
government reopening, um that people

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realized, "Hey, we might need a
framework for this public appearances so

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that we're not just listening to public
appearances all night." Um you cannot

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00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:04,240
discriminate based on what the viewpoint
is of the speaker. But you can establish

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00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:08,920
ground rules like every speaker gets no
more than two minutes, and they can't

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give their time to someone else. Right?
And you could say each speaker gets two

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minutes, but under no circumstances will
the public appearances last longer than

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30 minutes. Which will give you about 15
speakers. That's a good amount of

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speakers.
Uh but if

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uh you actually count it out, you're
probably not going to get people turning

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right on two minutes, and so 30 minutes
might not get you the full 15. Um but

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that's a neutral way of regulating. It's
a balance. We want to hear from you, but

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we have other business to do as well.
And I've I've heard from enough

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00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,320
municipal clients that are like, "We
just had a two-hour public comment

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period. That was not fun." Um and and
again, it's just get repetitive after a

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time, too. It's like, "Okay, I get it.
Let's talk about it, right? Let's Let's

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actually get into it." But I do
recommend, even if the public is

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speaking on an issue that's on the
agenda, that you wait until you get to

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that part of the agenda to discuss it.
Here's why.

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The council
discusses matters with the council. It

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00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,600
doesn't get into a debate with a member
of the public, whether they're public

355
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appearances, whether they're just people
who are attending the meeting. There's

356
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:21,000
There's no debate. You You can listen to
it. You can acknowledge their concerns.

357
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:25,080
But But you can't get into a discussion
if it's not on the agenda. And if it is

358
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on the agenda, when it gets there,
you're supposed to be talking about it

359
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:32,240
to the council. In in this little That's
why there's a tables are the way they

360
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:37,360
are, right? Cuz we can look at each
other and have these discussions. Again,

361
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,600
so much easier to say in theory than in
practice, which is why I encourage you

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00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:45,160
to do it now when there isn't something
really heated uh

363
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,120
coming up. Establishing new norms would
be a good thing.

364
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,280
Um
Another thing about complaints uh and

365
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:56,680
agenda language and all of that. The
reality is not everything is a

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council-level decision.
Not everything is a committee level

367
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,600
decision.
Not everything is even a supervisor

368
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:08,160
level decision. Some decisions are just
from the person whose job that is,

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subject to the person above them keeping
an eye to make sure they're doing it

370
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:16,480
correctly. Right? Every employee, every
appointed official has a certain role to

371
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:21,120
play, and they all have a certain amount
of authority. Whether that's a roads

372
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,760
crew who's going to decide, "Okay, which
side of the street do I want to plow

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00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:31,240
first?" Right? They might have that
authority. Um to really big things like,

374
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,960
"Hey, we need to buy a new plow." Right?
That is going to be a council member

375
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,800
from the council. This is going to be
expensive, right? It's probably going to

376
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:41,720
go through the public works committee
and then up to

377
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:46,760
a council level decision. So, you've got
to recognize that the goal of a

378
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:50,280
governance framework is to resolve
problems as low on the totem pole as

379
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:54,120
possible.
That's a good thing. If it's

380
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:58,200
resolved at the lowest possible level,
then great. Everyone's happy, we can

381
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:03,560
move on. We have to be careful that
there isn't this unspoken appeal. That

382
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,920
is, if I talk to this person and I like
their answer, I can go to their boss. If

383
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,120
I don't like that, I'll go to their
boss. If I don't like that, I'll go to

384
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,080
the committee. If I don't like that,
I'll go to the council.

385
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,720
If you do that,
uh

386
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:18,680
decisions will get dragged on and on.
Some things won't even get resolved for

387
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,920
a month or more. Uh not to mention,
it defeats the purpose of why you've

388
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:26,640
hired and appointed people to address
those matters. Their job is to solve

389
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:32,200
that. And if you don't like the way they
solved it, that's your ability to have a

390
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,360
performance session with that
individual, right? All right, we got to

391
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,560
talk about this. Maybe it starts with
the the the committee, right? This is

392
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:43,680
the person who's in charge of of running
the city. That's my committee. And then

393
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:47,840
we're going to have that conversation,
right? If if it's

394
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,000
let's take police for example, like
that's going to go through the chief. It

395
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:58,520
just is. And there's are things you're
not going to intercede on as a council

396
00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:01,880
until you're allowed to do it. But it I
I had I intentionally picked police

397
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,200
because there's a very specific amount
of authority for that and we generally

398
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,080
understand that like that's a police
thing. It should sort of be like that

399
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:14,880
for every
uh part of the city's operations, which

400
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:19,240
is okay, who's in charge of that? Who's
supervises that? And then who oversees

401
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,880
that person? Notice I used the word
oversee,

402
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:27,160
not supervise, cuz that's what a
governing body would do, again,

403
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:31,120
committee, council. We oversee, we make
sure that that the big picture is

404
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:35,720
getting met and that um they're doing
the job that that we asked them to do

405
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,720
when we hired them.
Uh and it and to kind of build off of

406
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:44,320
what I'm saying about bias, you have to
address these issues

407
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,440
uh eventually if they turn into
something like an employment grievance,

408
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:52,440
right? This is just an example where
there is defined ordinance and state law

409
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,840
that requires you to do certain things.
In the employment grievance, it has to

410
00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:01,480
be related to discipline, termination,
or workplace safety. But let's say that

411
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:05,120
a a supervisor,
you know, suspended someone for a day.

412
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:09,920
Hey, if you're going to um if you're
going to recklessly drive the plow like

413
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:14,120
that, we're going to need you to um
to take a day off, unpaid suspension.

414
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,960
All right? That's a discipline. So, they
could then grieve that discipline starts

415
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,400
by saying to the supervisor that, "Hey,
I don't agree with your decision. I'm

416
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:26,280
grieving that."
Then it goes to the the committee head.

417
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,600
And then it's going to go to an
impartial hearing officer, which is

418
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:34,720
another attorney, can't be me. Um an
independent uh attorney is hired to hear

419
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:40,760
that grievance and decide, "Hey, was
that a valid uh discipline?" And then

420
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,840
ultimately, the final decision is at the
council level.

421
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:47,920
That's how it works. And so sometimes
you guys don't even get to get involved

422
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,200
until the very end. And that's
intentionally. So that when it gets to

423
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,720
you, you've got you've got um clean
hands, right? And you're looking at it

424
00:28:53,800 --> 00:29:00,600
objectively still. Now, you're going to
hear rumors, right? Small town. But you

425
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,920
need to remember that you might have to
distance yourself, right? And the same

426
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,440
thing can happen at at various, you
know, department level matters where

427
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,960
you're like, "Yeah, I'm the front line.
I'm the first person who's going to get

428
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:16,075
that complaint." And we want to have
those department heads feel empowered to

429
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,920
address those issues when they come up.
>> [clears throat]

430
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:23,240
» It's really easy for the council to
tiptoe across that line. And it can have

431
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,320
the
the effect of those department heads

432
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,760
going, "I don't know if I can do this
cuz I don't know if the council's going

433
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:34,720
to approve." And then they get it just
starts to spin. It's like paranoid. They

434
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,360
don't know how to run the city.
It's their job to know how to run the

435
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,640
city, and you need to give them the
tools to do it. And then if they don't

436
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:45,040
do it right, we hold them accountable,
right? I'm an employment lawyer lawyer

437
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:50,040
first and foremost. I I'm very
comfortable with we need to address this

438
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:54,960
person's performance, right? Um but I
think that's just important because it's

439
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:58,600
easy to jump skip steps. And
statutorily, you're at the end of the

440
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,720
process. So you don't want to get ahead
of yourself.

441
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Questions about kind of structure of
governance and kind of structure of how

442
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,080
we put those agendas together?

443
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,680
I'm either boring you or you're
perfectly understanding this.

444
00:30:11,095 --> 00:30:14,480
» [clears throat]
>> Well, you talked about old business and

445
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,800
new business, and you shouldn't really
have it on unless you have a specific

446
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,680
item that you want to list for old
business or new business. Otherwise, it

447
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,960
should probably be taken off.
>> Yeah, cuz there's nothing you can talk

448
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:28,680
about because there's nothing noticed to
talk about. The only thing you could do

449
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,000
is propose topics for future, but that's
not new business, that's future

450
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,640
business.
>> And then the other thing is our

451
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:37,800
ordinance reads right now for all public
appearances 15 minutes. What's your

452
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,560
recommendation?
>> 15 Somewhere between 15 and 30 generally

453
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:47,960
makes sense. Usually I if I recall, your
policy is 15 unless approval is given.

454
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:52,560
So, if there's a hot topic and you want
to let people uh talk more, you can set

455
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,120
it higher or lower. So, if you know
going in, "Mhm, this is going to get

456
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,640
some people." You might say right before
the public appearances, "Let's go with

457
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:04,160
30."
You can also do it after 15 minutes is

458
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:09,200
up on the clock. The risk there though
is am I stopping it because 15 minutes

459
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,360
are up or am I stopping it because I
don't like what they're saying? Right?

460
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,960
You don't want it to be based on
viewpoint. So, that's why I usually

461
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,360
recommend deciding on the front end how
long we're going to let this go.

462
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,080
Um
there is some gray area there. So, if

463
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,000
it's been 15 minutes and and you thought
everyone would be done, but they're not,

464
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,280
um
you you might consider extending it at

465
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,960
that point. One of the things I don't
believe you have though is an individual

466
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,360
speaker time limit. Is that right?
>> That's what I was going to ask you is if

467
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,880
you recommend all or having an
individual time.

468
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:42,560
» I recommend having both because
you don't want any one person to eat up

469
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:46,920
all the time. So, if you have 30 minutes
and as many people as have time to

470
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:51,520
speak, speak. You could get someone who
comes in and speaks for 30 minutes

471
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:56,200
straight just to eat up the whole time.
Filibuster, if you will.

472
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:59,480
So, I would recommend having for both.
Two to three minutes is common.

473
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:05,600
Uh you'd be surprised how much you can
get said in two minutes. Uh but three is

474
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:09,920
fine, too. And that would be if you keep
15 minutes, it'd be five five speakers

475
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:14,000
taking the entire time. It's a good
amount of speakers because they aren't

476
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:18,320
going to take all day.
>> Would public appearances would be this

477
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:21,960
dedicated towards the posted agenda
items or cart blanche?

478
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:26,520
» You can Yes, good question. So, should
public appearances be only on agenda

479
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:30,320
items or should it be about anything?
That is uh a council-level decision.

480
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,800
The
I I find that things tend to work better

481
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,480
when it is based on the agenda so that
people don't just bring in extraneous

482
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:43,440
things that maybe have nothing to do
with the city at all, right? And I

483
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:47,640
certainly seen those individuals um they
might not even be community members. Um

484
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,720
so I I've seen people that say, you
know, yes, we're only going to talk with

485
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,120
the agenda items. We're not going to
talk with this other theoretical thing,

486
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,600
this other rumor that may be going on.
Let's stick to the agenda. That that has

487
00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:01,400
worked well for some some municipal
clients. The other one I have seen is is

488
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,680
we're all limiting public appearances
only to

489
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:09,480
residents of the city.
Um because we don't necessarily care

490
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,520
what someone outside of the city thinks
about what we're doing. Again,

491
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,320
uh which one of those things where you
know, yeah, but is it really a big deal?

492
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,080
Ultimately, I'd say it's a big deal
because the first time it happens,

493
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:25,600
you're going to want to know the answer
to it. It's better to set the rules in

494
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:30,000
play first rather than uh quickly
realize that hey, this is a coalition of

495
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:33,840
people from across this the city border
that are objecting to something we're

496
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:38,120
doing and we want to focus on on what
our community members want to say on an

497
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:43,360
issue. So those are the three I see most
commonly put in place as as regulations.

498
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,840
Um again, it's a balancing act. There's
there's not a right or wrong way to do

499
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,920
it.
>> The other question that was brought up

500
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:53,120
is on how should you at the beginning of
the agenda when you approve your

501
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:56,680
minutes, and it should it be review and
approve or should it be

502
00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:02,600
» Good question. And I think I have a
comment on that. I do I do have a I I'm

503
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:05,880
going to get there. Um but I yeah. Let's
let's hold it cuz I've got to go in my

504
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,320
head. And I that way we're on the same
page. Good question.

505
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,760
So I'll keep going cuz I know I want to
get to that topic. Um

506
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:16,280
one of the things that I want I think
it's really important for elected

507
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:20,320
officials and and appointed officials to
understand is is yes, the open meetings

508
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:25,360
law which I've kind of alluded to, but
also the public records law. These are

509
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:31,520
tools that Wisconsin state law has given
citizens to hold their

510
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:35,360
um elected officials and appointed
officials accountable.

511
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,600
So it's called sunshine laws, right?
Because the sunshine is the best

512
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:43,960
disinfectant. It's the everyone's above
board. Um these are these laws

513
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,159
are very helpful. But I'll be honest,
for administrative

514
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,639
leaders, like yourselves, it can be
really frustrating at times.

515
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:55,280
So, one of the things I want to talk
about is open meetings law.

516
00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:01,720
Open meetings law applies anytime there
are enough people in a room to decide an

517
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:06,160
action that is for the city.
Obvious example would be well, if you

518
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,080
get the four of the seven council
members in a room together, that's a

519
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:14,840
quorum that can do business.
So, if they're in a room together, we

520
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:18,080
have we know we have to take a pause on
talking about anything related to the

521
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:21,320
city.
Um

522
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,600
gets squishier from there though, right?
What if it's a committee? Well,

523
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,960
committee, there's only two of us on
there from the council, so that's okay.

524
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,560
But then, how many other members are
there in your committee?

525
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,880
Do the math. If you have a quorum of a
committee, you also are subject to the

526
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,800
open meetings law. And if you're going
to conduct official business, you have

527
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,840
to do it on a noticed agenda, just like
the council.

528
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,560
It it's hard sometimes to do that
because it's like, well, well, yeah, but

529
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,520
we're the people that are at all the
things, right? We we just sort of talk

530
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,640
to each other.
That's okay as long as you're not

531
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,640
talking about it together. So, an
example,

532
00:35:54,720 --> 00:36:02,040
let's say right now, there is a
a quorum of the commission here. Right?

533
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,040
And this quorum of the council here.
What does that mean? That means we had

534
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,800
noticed it as a joint meeting. Then
we're fine, right? It's not that you

535
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,000
can't do certain things, it's that you
have to give notice of those certain

536
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,360
things.
Another wrinkle that can come in is what

537
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:20,400
we call a negative quorum. A negative
quorum means I can't have enough as many

538
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:25,240
people in a room together talking about
city business as could stop something

539
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:31,120
from happening. So, think about
something that needs two-thirds of of

540
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:34,160
the the council, eight start looking at
how many votes is that? Is that only

541
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:38,000
three votes to vote against something?
If it is, then three of you are all of a

542
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,720
sudden
triggering a potential negative quorum.

543
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,520
And you better not be talking about
anything that requires two-thirds.

544
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:50,200
Um so yes, there is math and I'm sorry
for that, but you got to keep track of

545
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:54,400
it, um the negative quorum.
This one involves no math, but it's also

546
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,320
the one I see broken the most often, and
that's a walking quorum.

547
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:02,520
A walking quorum is when you talk to one
other person in your governing body, in

548
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,280
your commission, in your council, in
your committee. What does that mean?

549
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:10,440
That means
one member talks to another member,

550
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,320
totally fine.
That member then talks to another

551
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:18,520
member, still probably fine, who talks
to another member. Oh, you've just

552
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:23,200
gotten four. You've hit a quorum and you
shouldn't be doing that, because if you

553
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:27,280
guys all align yourselves outside of a
meeting on what to do, you've broken the

554
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:33,280
open meetings
So, be careful of straw polls or hit you

555
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,720
know, send it shooting out a text chain
to a

556
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:41,040
group or a subgroup of the council,
because that can be a walking quorum. If

557
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,080
you just kind of figure out what do you
Where do you lay on this? Where do you

558
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,400
lay on this? Where do you lay on this?
Before you know it, you've got a walking

559
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:51,160
quorum.
Um a lot of times there's not a record

560
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,280
of it. Maybe you did it, you know, um in
person over a series of meetings. That

561
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,720
doesn't change the fact that it's not
legal, and people have been caught um

562
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,400
doing walking quorums even without
paper.

563
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,480
Um
the most common one though is the

564
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:09,400
classic reply all to an email chain,
which is someone shares something with

565
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,560
the whole council and
one of you

566
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,640
is is um
wants to express your point about it.

567
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,880
Well intended, you hit reply all and you
share your feelings about that issue.

568
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,720
Well,
we've got a problem because you just

569
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,440
shared your feelings about that issue
with the quorum of the board, cuz they

570
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:30,040
weren't copied on that email.
Right? Got to be careful about that. We

571
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,240
don't want to be hitting reply all
discussing city business outside of

572
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:38,640
these meetings. That can be a form of
walking quorum. And technology has done

573
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:42,320
wonderful things. It's allowing us to
record and broadcast today's

574
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:47,040
meeting, but it also means that you've
got a world full of of

575
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:51,720
evidence on your personal electronic
devices in the form of texts, the form

576
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:55,960
of emails, all there and at a moment's
notice. So, that means it's your

577
00:38:53,320 --> 00:39:00,840
obligation to maintain
public records that are on your personal

578
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:05,920
devices. Right? If you get a city
provided device, fantastic. Make sure

579
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:11,800
you keep your city provided device
solely dedicated to city business.

580
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:15,560
Because it can very easily become that
you have to disclose everything that's

581
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,840
on that phone. And I will never forget
this.

582
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:22,520
Um I was a
new associate, Steve Zack asked me to

583
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,320
for help on a public records request.
What was the issue? A municipality had

584
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,960
got a public records request for the
contents of everyone's phones on the

585
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,880
line crew.
And I was like, "Okay. Hey, wait a

586
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:38,280
minute. How are we going to get all
their text messages?"

587
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:43,800
And Steve's like, "That's why I asked
you to do it. Figure it out." And what

588
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:48,960
did I have to do? I had to go down to uh
to city hall and collect a baggy full of

589
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,680
cell phones. And then I talked to the IT
department of my firm and said, "We've

590
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,320
got to get the text messages out of
this." And then they loaded them all up

591
00:39:53,640 --> 00:40:00,040
onto a a sheet. They ended up doing it
as a spreadsheet. And then I had to go

592
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:04,360
through every single text message to
determine if it was disclosable to this

593
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:09,000
public records request.
Spoiler alert. A lot Spoiler alert. It

594
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,040
It You didn't want me to see it, let
alone someone else to see it, right?

595
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,320
They had concerns that there were
inappropriate images on there, and they

596
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,040
were right. There were inappropriate
images on there. Fortunately, that

597
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:22,800
public records request got pushed
through before I had to disclose any of

598
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:27,080
those um
potential issues. But, I use this as an

599
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:31,640
extreme example of a thing that actually
happens, right? If you use your personal

600
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,920
device to talk about city business, your
personal device has public records on it

601
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:39,440
that can be requested, and you would
have to turn them over. Does that mean

602
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,680
the only way is a baggy full of cell
phones? Not necessarily, but you would

603
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,520
have to turn those over to the clerk
who's processing the public records

604
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:52,080
request. If you don't, the city could
get sued for violating the um

605
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:56,240
public records law, and that's bad. But,
it's even worse. You could be sued

606
00:40:53,360 --> 00:41:00,440
individually because you're the the um
official and the records custodian for

607
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:04,800
your own records that hasn't done it.
And what that court process is called

608
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:08,200
when someone files it and says, "You
need to give me those records." It's

609
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:13,200
actually called a writ of mandamus, and
it is essentially an order by the court

610
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:16,480
that the government do something. And if
you then don't listen to that order, and

611
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:20,480
then we should go, "No, it's my personal
phone. I'm not giving you anything

612
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:23,080
that's on it." Well, that's contempt.
And that can be jail time and serious

613
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,960
fines.
So, we don't play around with it, right?

614
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:31,400
We want to keep our personal devices
personal. And our work devices work. If

615
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:35,560
people are using your personal devices
to talk about city business, redirect

616
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:40,720
them to your official email accounts.
That way you have a record of it. Um if

617
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:45,880
you are you can use your phone if it
syncs with the city's official um

618
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,640
communication channels, right? And so,
if you have like um [clears throat]

619
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:53,120
Do you guys have email that you guys can
log in separately? Uh you could have an

620
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,600
app for that on your phone, that'd be
fine. Use the app. That way there's a

621
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:01,120
record of it, it's being retained, and
it can easily be found by

622
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:04,200
um by city hall without having to ask
you to screenshot a bunch of text

623
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,800
messages, right? So, it's really
important to keep that in mind. It will

624
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,760
make everyone's life easier.
Fortunately, there is an exception in

625
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:16,840
the public records law that records that
are purely personal

626
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:20,040
are not discloseable under the public
records law.

627
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,200
But, in order to determine that they're
purely personal, an attorney like me is

628
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:28,040
going to have to look at them all. And
you don't want to share all of your

629
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:30,520
deepest private secrets with me, either.
Um

630
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,000
it's just important to recognize that.
That is where the line is, and it's not

631
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:38,400
always clear what personal and private
is. So, to do separate them, so you have

632
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,400
clear
um separation in your own mind, right?

633
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:46,800
Your personal Facebook account is not
the account I use for city business.

634
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Um I don't use Facebook Messenger to
talk about city business because there's

635
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:55,600
no record of it, and I don't have a good
way to preserve it. And I don't want my

636
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:58,720
friends exchanging official emails right
before we talk about the football game

637
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,720
on Sunday and how much we're going to
have to drink, right? Cuz again, then

638
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:07,320
that all comes to an attorney to decide
if it's discloseable if you should get

639
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:10,640
that request. So, again, not trying to
scare you. I think the public records

640
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:15,000
law is great, but we just don't want to
be ambushed by it. We need to be aware

641
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:19,000
of it so that we can avoid uh avoid
trouble in that. And one of the things

642
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:23,080
that that that is that I really want to
highlight is is that walking quorum

643
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:27,720
issue where you hit reply all and talk
about thing that that uh the mayor

644
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:32,840
shared with you. Uh that creates a
public record showing you violated the

645
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,880
open records law. Right? I said the open
meetings law. So, it's a record that

646
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:40,880
shows you that you broke another law.
That's double problematic, right? It's

647
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:45,280
just that easy. So, do be careful. There
are specific statutory consequences for

648
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:49,920
violating the open meetings law. Biggest
scariest one is it can void the action.

649
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:53,760
So, let's say we didn't post tonight's
meeting. You would not be able to take

650
00:43:51,560 --> 00:44:00,280
any action whatsoever tonight if it
wasn't properly posted. Um and if you

651
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:03,960
did, it would be void upon someone
correctly calling out that you didn't

652
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:09,800
pop properly post it. Good news, you did
properly posted it. I checked.

653
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Um but again, that's like the highest um
example. And if someone's like if it's a

654
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:17,920
controversial decision and someone
doesn't like it, it's really low-hanging

655
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:21,640
fruit to uh challenge it under the Open
Meetings Law. Cuz then I just undid the

656
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,120
thing that you didn't like. So be
careful about that. There's also

657
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:32,400
individual fines.
Um, it's three three between $25 and $30

658
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:37,000
for each violation that is your fine
individually as a person.

659
00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:40,960
The city by law cannot reimburse you for
that. No way it's covered by insurance.

660
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:45,520
Do you have a fine? So you it's like
yeah, it's standard bucks. It's bad, but

661
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:49,960
that's like a bad parking ticket, right?
Um, there's also potential for

662
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:53,440
attorney's fees in there which all of a
sudden it's like oh, that's going to

663
00:44:51,880 --> 00:45:00,000
equal a thousand times, right? That's
like an hour of talking to an attorney.

664
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:03,800
Um, so be careful about that. Um, it is
uh a pretty significant penalty. Also,

665
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:07,760
when I find that someone breaks one
aspect of the public record, I find that

666
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:11,800
they do it more than once, right? Let's
say you never turned over your phone.

667
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:15,600
Each text that is a public record that
you didn't turn over is a separate

668
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:21,040
violation. So there's a hundred
messages, times that by 300, that's your

669
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:25,560
fine. So it's not it's not as toothless
as it might sound at first glance.

670
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:31,880
Um, when we're talking about public
records, we are talking about the

671
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:36,080
subject matter of the record, not just
um where you store it. So the fact that

672
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,680
it's on your official city email doesn't
mean it's a public record. If it's an

673
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,320
email to your wife saying you're going
to be home late, that's not a public

674
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:46,160
record. It's purely personal.
Similarly, if it's your personal email

675
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:50,360
and you're talking about how you're
going to vote tonight's meeting, it's

676
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:54,800
absolutely a public record regardless of
where um it's stored. So that's again

677
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:58,680
really important. And you each as
elected officials, appointed officials,

678
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:03,800
uh and and public servants in general
have a duty to retain those those

679
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:06,440
records. And if you alter, falsify,
destroy, or conceal those public

680
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:12,280
records,
uh there's it's class H felony.

681
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:16,360
So, do not the old adage uh the cover-up
is worse than the crime. Please do not

682
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:21,000
shred your public records.
Um that's that's bad. Um you do also

683
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:25,360
have a records retention um or
obligation under uh state law and under

684
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,880
your ordinances.
Um

685
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:32,760
your emails, your blogs, your Facebook
groups, if you get I know everyone's got

686
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:36,240
them, right? These community groups that
you're in, the informal, you just talk

687
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,720
about things. If you're in those groups
and you're talking about public

688
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:44,720
business, that means that the contents
of that Facebook group are at least in

689
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:49,080
part public records. And all of a sudden
this private community group is now a

690
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:53,600
public community group. So, be careful
about that. And that there's a um

691
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:59,240
Attorney General opinion right on that
on that point. So, be cautious.

692
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,920
All right, that's what I wanted to say
about open government uh and whether

693
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:08,480
we're talking about public records or
open meetings. Aside from scaring you a

694
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:11,960
little bit, any thoughts, questions?
>> Well, it sounds like on your email you

695
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:17,560
should have a disclaimer so do not reply
all and maybe informational only.

696
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:20,520
» I I I like that. You either you
One of the things I've done is yes, I've

697
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,960
seen just don't hit reply all. Do not
hit reply all. Or reminder do not hit

698
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:30,040
reply all. Another thing I've seen is
people put the council members in at the

699
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:34,040
BCC, then you can't hit reply all. It
won't let you or it will just go back to

700
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:37,240
the sender because you're BCC. That also
works. It kind of just forces someone to

701
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:42,240
then go in and add everyone
individually, which will usually mean,

702
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:46,000
"Oh wait, I shouldn't do that. Public
meeting right violation." But yeah, I do

703
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:49,360
like that disclaimer, especially if
someone's like, "Hey,

704
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:53,040
let's let's say you wanted to pass out
this agenda, right? My packet cuz I gave

705
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,600
it to you on Friday. You could have sent
it to the council and said, "Here's the

706
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:59,200
packet for Monday so So, can look at it
in advance. Do not hit reply all the

707
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,160
comments about it, right?
And

708
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:08,560
that's how we could do it. One-way
receipt of information rather than a

709
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,560
discussion. You can do that, yeah.

710
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:14,640
Other questions?
All right, let's dive into some of your

711
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,400
ordinances, right? I'm going to start
with committees.

712
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:21,560
Um and I I just pulled your ordinances
straight up, 2.08.040,

713
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:26,440
right?
At the organizational meeting, the mayor

714
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:29,800
shall appoint three aldermen to each of
the following committees. There they

715
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,080
are. So, now there's three of you on
each one of these committees, which

716
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:38,880
means any two of you can decide the
business of those committees. That's a

717
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:42,360
really small walking uh walk um sorry um
negative quorum.

718
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:46,120
So, just be careful about that. It also
is the mayor shall appoint, which means

719
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:51,080
the mayor gets to pick um whether you
like it or not, the ordinances say

720
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:54,720
that's who it is. And there's no appeal
process, no challenge, you just

721
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,800
it's just how it works.
Um

722
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:01,880
then there are specific duties for each
of those committees.

723
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:07,160
It's important that each committee
understands its scope and doesn't step

724
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,880
over the scope of their committee.
Um one of the committees I work with the

725
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:15,880
most often is is the personnel
committee, right? Cuz they're

726
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:20,880
making employment decisions.
And they also are hiring new new

727
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:26,920
candidates, and sometimes they are
terminating candidates. But they are not

728
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:31,640
replacing the administration of the
city, right? We have employees and

729
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:38,200
specific elected officials that do the
boots-on-the-ground work. The personnel

730
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:43,240
committee is in oversight of that work.
So, for instance, the personnel

731
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:46,640
committee would review um an employment
handbook. And then if there were changes

732
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,880
made, made recommendations to the
council, and then the council would

733
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:53,120
approve it, right? Big-picture
governance stuff in terms of the

734
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,880
personnel committee.
Then in certain cases, yeah, the

735
00:49:54,680 --> 00:50:01,640
personnel committee is going to be the
hiring committee for that position or be

736
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:04,720
part of the hiring process. And by
according to that handbook, there are

737
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:08,320
certain times when
the personnel committee is the

738
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,200
the committee that votes on whether or
not someone's going to keep your job

739
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,440
their job.
And that's tough. It's a hard place to

740
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:20,160
be.
But that's that's a specific job.

741
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:23,640
One of the things that can get
blurry quick

742
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:28,520
is let's say you're on the public works
committee and someone in the public

743
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:34,200
works department isn't doing their job.
Is that public works problem or is that

744
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,200
a personnel committee problem?

745
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:41,040
See, it's gray. The answer to that is it
starts with the the top employee in

746
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,480
public works.
And if that person is the subject of the

747
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:49,200
complaint,
then it could rightfully go either to

748
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:52,200
the chair of the public works committee
or the personnel committee.

749
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,800
But
the public works committee chair, when

750
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,960
they get that complaint, should turn it
over to personnel.

751
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:03,440
Cuz personnel has to be the one to
implement. There may be opportunities

752
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:07,600
for the to get information from members
of the public works cuz maybe there's a

753
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:12,440
you know, a whole thing that's going on
that's really you know, about

754
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:16,440
how public works operates. That can be
appropriate. But at the end of the day,

755
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:20,200
it is personnel that's going to do the
employment aspects of that.

756
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,800
Similarly,
the personnel committee doesn't just

757
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,320
take up every single complaint that
involves an employee because everything

758
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:29,920
involves an employee, right? That's just
how it works. Someone is hired to do

759
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,440
everything.
Um

760
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:37,400
then you the you similarly and the
personnel committee have to recognize,

761
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:41,920
well, wait. Has this gotten to us yet?
Or or should this be handled at a lower

762
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:45,560
level? Or is this not really a personnel
complaint, it's a structural complaint

763
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:49,440
about how we organize
part of our city. Structural complaint

764
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:53,160
goes right back to that committee,
right? The proper committee, finance,

765
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,640
public safety, public works.
So that the they can deal with the

766
00:51:55,160 --> 00:52:01,560
systemic problem.
Uh it's it is your obligation to keep

767
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:05,840
them straight. Sometimes you may have to
have a a meeting to simply decide that

768
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:10,960
this is not our meeting, right? It's
like we meet we met, this isn't us. Um

769
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:16,760
and it it moves on. But that's part of
why I was really emphasizing the need to

770
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:20,960
get the complaint to the employee
overseeing that work as soon as possible

771
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,840
so that they can funnel it to the
correct person. A lot of times what will

772
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:31,080
happen if if the system's working
properly is the the head of that of that

773
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:34,400
department will um decide yes, this is
going to be high stakes and I'm going to

774
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:38,400
need to make a recommendation of of
termination to the personnel committee.

775
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,760
They contact the chair of the personnel
committee and they copy

776
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,880
the chair of their department so that
they know what's going on.

777
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,480
The
um the

778
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:51,680
specific committee isn't getting
involved, but they now know that this is

779
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:56,240
going to have a ripple effect on your
committee, right? That's the ideal way

780
00:52:53,680 --> 00:53:03,000
to resolve it. In practice, what happens
is the chair uh or anyone else on the on

781
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:05,880
the specific committee is going to get
really excited about it. Oh, wow, this

782
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,240
is happening in the department I
oversee, my committee, I need to get

783
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,440
involved in that.
That's a perfect example where bias can

784
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:17,040
creep in, right? It needs to go to
personnel because personnel has that

785
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:21,800
general oversight over employment
matters. If it goes through a public

786
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,960
works debate first, all of a sudden
those three council members that are in

787
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:28,600
that committee have probably
predetermined their answer by the time

788
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:33,360
it gets up to the council. Not to
mention, it's now two meetings instead

789
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:37,840
of one, which slows everything down. Um
so again, that's important to

790
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:42,680
understand. The structure is still a
governance structure, right? It's the

791
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:47,880
business of the council that's is done
by committees so that you can really get

792
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:53,800
down and dirty in specific areas.
But, out That still doesn't mean that

793
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:58,960
you are the factor running that
department. And again, lines get blurred

794
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:02,200
very quickly. But, I like to think of it
as you're overseeing the head of your

795
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:05,240
department. And if that person isn't
doing their job, then you hold them

796
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:09,600
accountable with a performance
evaluation. That you don't you might do

797
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,960
the initial performance evaluation of
the head of but you're not going to do

798
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:17,280
the final
or any decision, right? That arises from

799
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:20,520
that. That's going to personnel.
So, you also have a recreation

800
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,760
committee, which is different than all
your other committees. And so, it's

801
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,760
important to note that that is a thing
that exists. And you have chosen to

802
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:32,720
allow it to be four members of the
committee. First of all, why four,

803
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:36,120
right? You're begging for a tie.
And they shall be appointed by the mayor

804
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,360
and approved by the common council. They
have to be residents, but they don't

805
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:43,600
have to all be council members, right?
One alder shall be on the committee.

806
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:47,000
Everyone else can be community members.
Notice that this is very different than

807
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:50,520
every other structure I just set up. Do
the people from the public who have

808
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:54,120
signed on to that committee know that
they are signing on to a public

809
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:57,960
committee that subjects them to public
records requests, open meetings laws?

810
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Has someone invited them to a meeting
like this, right? It's easier

811
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:07,640
to say yes than to really recognize what
you're saying yes to. So, I I put that

812
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,800
as a caution. I know that there's some
discussion about where where things are

813
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:14,960
going to go with respective rep.
But, ultimately, I just wanted to

814
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,800
identify it as as an outlier. It's
different than everything else. Doesn't

815
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:25,160
necessarily mean that's bad, but it does
mean you have to be aware of it.

816
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:30,320
In the policy, it says that committee or
say in the ordinance, it says that

817
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:34,240
you must make a committee report at each
regularly scheduled council meeting.

818
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:38,600
That's what the ordinance is saying. So,
yes, at every meeting, you'll chair of

819
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:43,280
this committee,
all right, is there is there a report?

820
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:48,720
But, if you read it, I put it in
italics, so you can all see it on page

821
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:54,880
five here. Submit an oral or written
report. Which means you do not have to

822
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:57,440
submit the report um verbally. You don't
have to read everything that was done,

823
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,720
you don't have to say everything that
was said. You just can say

824
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,840
the written report says and all, just
drawing your attention to, "Hey, we just

825
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:09,400
had a vote on this and the basketball
team will be playing on May 15th."

826
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:13,680
Right? Real short and simple. What is
the thing they need to know? Because the

827
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:16,440
report is the the real
document that says what the committee

828
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,080
was doing. And the report probably looks
a lot like the minutes of that committee

829
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,240
meeting
um

830
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:26,400
it
meetings will start and will continue to

831
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:30,440
be long if every committee person
reads out everything that was discussed

832
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:34,600
at the committee. Here's why. You set up
a committee to do all of that.

833
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:39,440
And if you have that then report to the
entire body in detail, you haven't

834
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:43,560
benefited from the efficiency that the
committee system can bring to you. You

835
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:47,280
intentionally, by forming committees,
said, "We're going to delegate that to

836
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:50,840
them." Now, we want oversight as a body,
that's why we have a

837
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:54,440
written report.
But, if no alder has a question on the

838
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,520
written report, it doesn't have to be a
discussion item at the meeting. You can

839
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,320
just say
Any questions? No questions? Okay, we'll

840
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:06,800
move on.
And again, that's just a way of running

841
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:11,400
an efficient meeting. And if people are
are hesitant to say, "Well, people want

842
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:14,600
to know what's going on." I would say
they can know, right? We've got the

843
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:17,920
committee report and they could have
been at the committee meeting.

844
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:20,720
There were plenty of opportunities for
people to hear.

845
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:26,080
Um you have to balance that with the
efficiency that would come from um the

846
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:29,720
meetings being longer uh if you do that.
Um

847
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:34,480
and then you'll notice that the the
ordinance on the agenda does say

848
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:38,640
uh will always be reports of committees
and officials." Yeah, reports. That

849
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:42,480
could be oral or written. You would
satisfy your ordinances with written

850
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:47,840
reports and not talking about it at all.
In the balance is probably the ideal way

851
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:51,120
way to do it. So, I do not think that
they have to be read aloud.

852
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:57,480
Questions about committees cuz I I know
how important committees can be to

853
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,480
running.

854
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,720
» Well,
I remember that I knew it was an annual

855
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:07,240
meeting where the appointments I had
were questioned and switched around

856
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,960
because
>> Appointments for committees?

857
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:17,600
» Yeah, okay. Because the council as a
whole has to approve them.

858
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:21,280
So, that is you know, just as because I
appoint people or any mayor appoints

859
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,840
people, that isn't necessarily where
people end up if they want to move

860
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:28,120
around.
>> Where in the ordinances does it say it's

861
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:31,200
approved by the council?
It says it for record.

862
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,520
» I'm pretty sure that it's part of the
law.

863
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:38,160
I don't have the ordinance with
>> I I copied it right out of the

864
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:41,360
ordinance.
So,

865
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:45,760
it could be that that is a long-standing
practice, but it might not actually be

866
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:49,360
what your ordinance is requiring.
Just something to kind of flag as a,

867
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:52,200
"Hey, are we doing this cuz we have to
or because that's the way we've

868
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:56,240
historically done it and we've tried to
reach consensus?"

869
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,360
Sometimes disagreement might be okay.
>> And maybe that's the way the resolution

870
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,560
was written.
>> It could be, yeah. I would I would look

871
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,400
at the ordinance and I'd look at the
resolution and I'd I'd decide what we

872
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,960
have to do versus what we are choosing
to do.

873
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,720
» Okay.
>> One of the big things I hate as a lawyer

874
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:12,720
is when people say, "That's the way
we've always done it." It's a terrible

875
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:16,680
reason to do anything, right? If it's
this is tradition, okay, tradition for

876
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:21,160
what? Like, what why is this a
tradition? Ask yourself the why and the

877
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:24,280
answer to the why is then probably a
much better reason than just because

878
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:30,680
it's what we do.
Um it's just very difficult to govern

879
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:34,320
based on unspoken tradition, right? We
want to rely on the structure given to

880
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:37,280
us by our ordinances, by our policy
manuals, etc.

881
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,680
A question. Are there questions about
committees?

882
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:45,320
» So, what you're saying with two of our
committee reports is basically the

883
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,040
minutes are the committee reports. So,
you can just say, are there any

884
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:52,000
questions regarding the
minutes? And then, if there's action,

885
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,560
that's what the
committee chairperson can present with

886
00:59:53,720 --> 01:00:00,560
the action taken from
>> Yes, you don't have to

887
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:03,360
you can I would say you base the report
on the minutes. You may add a little

888
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:07,720
extra commentary just so that people
understand what's going on a little bit

889
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:12,160
more cuz the minutes are really just,
you know, there was this action taken,

890
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:16,920
there was a vote, yay, yes, it passed.
That's all that a minute has to be. It's

891
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:19,840
minutes, right? Minute. Um
but

892
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:23,320
you could add a little more information
as background to the to the report.

893
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:26,720
Then, when you come to the council,
yeah, it don't have to be, "Hey, my

894
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:31,480
report says it all, but I need action
from the council on this agenda item."

895
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:35,400
And then, advance that.
And then, discuss that that agenda item,

896
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:37,960
right? That's it's the fully appropriate
thing to do.

897
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:44,760
Are there questions about committees?
>> Just comment about minutes, they're only

898
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:49,400
as good as the person taking them.
>> That's absolutely true, and I have seen

899
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:51,880
some terrible minutes in my day.
Which, by the way, I've seen them

900
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:55,320
terrible in both directions. I've seen
people say, "Wait, did this pass? How

901
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:59,520
many people were there? How many people
voted?" Hey, it's too too little. I've

902
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,320
also seen the bad minutes that are too
much, and it's like a transcription of a

903
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:07,560
court reporter. I was like, "How did you
type that fast?" So, really minutes are

904
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,080
who's there,
what actions did we take, right? And cuz

905
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:16,000
if the the agenda item says discussion
on whatever the topic is, well, then

906
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:19,880
then we know that that was discussed. We
don't need to know what every person

907
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:26,200
thinks about it. We need to go, "Okay,
the the was or the consensus was

908
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:31,440
this is and and again putting too much
in just actually confuses the issue is

909
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:34,080
then people are like okay so what what
happened?

910
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,640
Trying to keep the the difference
between the minutes and the

911
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,880
transcription and frankly that's why a
lot of people are recording everything

912
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:42,600
now. Makes it a lot easier to have
simple minutes.

913
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:49,160
Yeah.
>> Um with our question

914
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:51,800
um meetings we have the department heads
give their project updates

915
01:01:51,272 --> 01:01:55,840
» [clears throat]
>> and how much of that information needs

916
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:58,720
to be
detailed?

917
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:02,560
» It's a good question and I would say I
would function a lot like the committees

918
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:06,960
that we were just discussing. I think
what needs to be reported out verbally

919
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,960
maybe less than what is is provided
perhaps in in a documentation.

920
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:14,080
Um
and it part of it is is everyone have

921
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:17,320
something you know a project going on at
the same time.

922
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:20,680
Uh sometimes there often is like
someone's doing something right? But is

923
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:23,480
it important enough that the commission
needs to know about?

924
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,040
Uh I find that a lot of time when you
just kind of a standing agenda item of

925
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:31,600
report people tend [laughter] to use
that to cram in a lot of stuff that is

926
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:34,720
not really a report it's more of a
discussion at that point in which case

927
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:40,160
it should have been a separate agenda
item. So um I do think that that I would

928
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,480
say there should be some level of
reporting out or certain actions that

929
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:47,760
might need to be taken but it doesn't
have to be a comprehensive summary of of

930
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:52,520
what they're doing. If it's a minute or
two that's not so bad but I have seen

931
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:55,800
reports that get really long and I have
open meeting law questions about long

932
01:02:54,280 --> 01:03:00,480
reports like that. If it was important
enough that we're talking about it for

933
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:03,600
20 minutes why isn't it an agenda item?
>> Question could they like the department

934
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:08,120
head
submit their report in advance?

935
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:11,880
Like when they get their packet for the
meeting like you could read it all and

936
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,840
then at the meeting
the department head could give their

937
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,200
summary.
>> Absolutely which is

938
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,480
pretty much what the what the committees
are asked to do.

939
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,520
» Yeah.
>> I think that's efficient. Um certainly

940
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,160
something for the commission to consider
because again,

941
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:28,480
we've got a lot of things going on.
Let's get to the items we need to know

942
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:32,320
what's at council level for us to
discuss, what's the background that we

943
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:36,600
might need for future decisions. Keep it
efficient and I think reports are a good

944
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,600
way to do that.

945
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:42,440
Excellent question. I'm hoping that that
you're already getting Oh, let's get

946
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:45,960
let's get efficient in here cuz that's
that's what it's about, right? Um to

947
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:49,240
let's talk about parliamentary
procedures and running an efficient and

948
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:55,000
effective meeting. I set that up
intentionally as my transition. Um

949
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:59,480
Robert's Rules of Order are
what you've adopted to generally govern

950
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:03,000
how meetings are run.
I usually pull out my Robert's Rules and

951
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:07,400
set it on the table rather dramatically.
It's about this thick. Um

952
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:11,520
it it there's a lot in there, a lot in
there. And half of it is just for like

953
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:17,000
giant bodies like Congress kind of
level. But there's still a good amount,

954
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:20,320
3 400 pages of how to run a meeting with
parliamentary procedure.

955
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:25,080
I don't think you need to be an expert
on that book, but I do think you need to

956
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:29,000
understand the basic principles. So,
without Robert's Rules in front of me,

957
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:33,280
and at a very high level, what is
parliamentary procedure? It's simply the

958
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:39,440
the way in which you call for
discussion, debate, vote, and move on.

959
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:43,800
But it's also how you might challenge
that discussion. So, I'm going to give

960
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:48,080
you an example. In order for anyone to
to to do anything, right? To have the

961
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:52,320
body do anything, you have to make a
motion.

962
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:56,680
There is an infinite amount of motions.
You can motion for anything.

963
01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:01,440
But certain things are are certain kinds
of actions. Um so, for instance, let's

964
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:06,240
say I I mo- motion to approve the
minutes as presented. Excellent. You've

965
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:09,600
just asked for something to be done. You
need to have a second.

966
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:14,080
If you don't have a second,
goes away. It fails for want of a

967
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:18,400
second. That's the formal term for it,
which means and you might be going,

968
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:21,480
"Well, if we just uh fail to
to approve minutes,

969
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:25,360
how those minutes ever going to get
approved?" Well, they're going to stay

970
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,800
on the agenda for next month. It it went
away, but you still have to approve

971
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:32,600
them. So, we're going to have to deal
with it in the future. Um

972
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:36,880
Most of the time there'll be a motion,
there'll be a second, then it'll be any

973
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:41,840
discussion. You can discuss about the
item. If there's already a motion on the

974
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:44,480
table, sometimes I've seen
um

975
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:47,640
the governmental bodies that literally
will say, "Here's the motion we're

976
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:50,760
looking for because this is the thing we
need the council to do."

977
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:55,920
And if the
then someone makes that motion, right?

978
01:05:52,960 --> 01:06:01,160
Traditionally, the chair is uh the
mayor, and the chair doesn't make the

979
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:05,560
motions. It's traditional, it's not
necessarily the law. So, if everyone

980
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,120
just stares at the mayor that call for
the motion, that might that is not the

981
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:14,640
way it should be done. So, someone else
makes the motion, second, discussion.

982
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:18,560
Let's say that this is a divisive issue
and we got a we've got a 3-3 tie, and

983
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:23,120
the mayor's staying out of it because
the mayor knows the mayor has to break

984
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:27,080
this tie, right? Um how do we how do we
break tie? Well, eventually, it's going

985
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:31,120
to be a motion to close debate, call the
vote, right?

986
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:37,120
Um and a motion to close debate requires
um 2/3

987
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:41,760
vote. So, it allows for someone to talk
uh about and if they're in the the

988
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:47,200
minority position, but at some point,
the majority can say, "I'm I'm calling

989
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:50,440
the question." Or moving to close
debate. They all mean kind of the same

990
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:54,080
thing. It basically means, "Can we vote
on this?"

991
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:57,600
Um and if that motion passes, then you
proceed to the vote.

992
01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:03,120
Otherwise, you kind of let them the
conversation die down naturally, and

993
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:07,960
then you would call for the vote. Um it
is important that you recognize that um

994
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:11,160
once you're discussing a motion, you
cannot go outside the scope of that

995
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:14,760
motion. You can't start talking about
something else and coming back to it.

996
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:20,080
You got to stay on the action item in
front of us. If the consensus is that

997
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:23,880
the motion is going
to fail, right? There's going to be a

998
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:29,040
vote and it's not going to pass. Then
that motion fails. There could be a

999
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:32,840
motion that is made after that that's
something different.

1000
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:36,520
And related to it, right?
Then you can make the motion and maybe

1001
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:40,960
that one passes, right? So then you
voted down one action and voted up the

1002
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:45,120
other action. That's kind of how it
works. But the big reason I talk about

1003
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:50,640
parliamentary procedures is because it
provides structure to the meeting so

1004
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:54,560
that when things get potentially heated,
they don't get to the point where

1005
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:57,720
everyone's just screaming and talking
and no one's um

1006
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:00,800
uh
getting to the message, right? Getting

1007
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:05,040
to the point. Because there is a point
at which there's no reason for

1008
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:09,400
additional debate, right? At this point,
everyone knows that person doesn't agree

1009
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:14,440
with us. So let's call the vote and move
on.

1010
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:19,200
Once the action item is approved,
it should be done.

1011
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:23,000
And even if you voted against the
motion,

1012
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:25,759
you should stand behind the motion.
Now, what does that mean? That's not to

1013
01:08:24,359 --> 01:08:30,000
say that you have to say that you agree
with it, but it does mean you have to

1014
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:35,240
say the council's decided that issue,
right? I wasn't in favor of it, but now

1015
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:40,359
that is the rule of the city.
It's really important because I've seen

1016
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:44,720
a lot of governing bodies that I'll call
it um holding onto a grudge, right? That

1017
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:49,200
agenda item that didn't pass that was
really important to you and it just it

1018
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:53,359
just sticks with you. And it sticks with
you as a as a potential

1019
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:58,880
uh hostility.
You can't move on to govern the city if

1020
01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:01,920
you're still holding onto old business.
For one thing, it's done with. You don't

1021
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,839
even have the votes to bring it back up
if you wanted to. But then secondly, it

1022
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:09,680
goes against the principle of governance
governing that we're talking about here,

1023
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:13,480
which is we debate, we discuss, we come
to an answer, and then that's what the

1024
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:17,319
council says. You can say I disagree
with it, but it's it's the official

1025
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:23,880
stance of the council.
In very rare situations, there is the

1026
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:29,080
opportunity to reopen the discussion,
but they are very very slim. Um one of

1027
01:09:26,440 --> 01:09:33,000
them, for example, is if there was a
mistake in the You can before the end of

1028
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:36,000
the meeting, you could call it again to
change the vote. Every so often I get

1029
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:42,240
that question.
But you can't reconsider the vote the

1030
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:47,400
next meeting. You just can't unless you
have uh a specific basis for doing so as

1031
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:51,680
outlined in Robert's Rules. Because
Robert's Rules is designed to be

1032
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:55,760
efficient way of coming to a resolution.
Not to bind you forever. There are ways

1033
01:09:53,640 --> 01:10:00,480
to get through it. But it does bring
finality. And I think finality is a

1034
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:05,800
really important concept in in
democratic governance, because you

1035
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:09,760
you have to agree to disagree sometimes
and move on.

1036
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:14,000
The end move on, I think, is missing a
lot for

1037
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:17,520
the history of political politics,
right? People have a hard time with that

1038
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:23,360
one forever.
But it is necessary in order for the

1039
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:26,760
machine to work, the machine that is our
our system of governance here in the

1040
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:32,960
city.
Um so let's talk about the procedures in

1041
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:35,400
your own ordinances about running your
meetings.

1042
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:39,160
As
we've got

1043
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:42,520
um the we've got a whole bunch of things
on pages five and six that are straight

1044
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:46,120
out of your ordinances, right?
The first bullet point is all about

1045
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:50,000
public appearances,
but it also is

1046
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:54,080
um
discussion of the council itself, right?

1047
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:57,840
When two or more members simultaneously
seek recognition, the presiding officer

1048
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:02,200
shall name the member who is to speak
first. It's common sense, but that's

1049
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:06,920
actually the ordinance, right? If two
people chime in, you don't the mayor

1050
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:09,480
gets to say first, second, right? And
then they get to talk, and then they get

1051
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:12,040
to talk.
A lot of times we're like, "Hey, we

1052
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:16,640
don't do that, right? We just talk to
each other." That's fine. Until it's not

1053
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:20,760
fine, right? And so what this is is
giving you the tools to when it's not

1054
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,280
working for the mayor or the presiding
officer, cuz if the mayor's gone,

1055
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:29,120
there's a different person who'd step
in, and they would just say, "Okay.

1056
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:32,600
That's how this is going to go, right?"
Um same thing with the commission, by

1057
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:36,920
the way, it's not council exclusive. Um
there is a presiding officer for the

1058
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:40,840
commission as well.
When the member is called to order, he

1059
01:11:39,440 --> 01:11:45,320
shall take his seat and shall not
proceed until the question of order is

1060
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:49,440
decided. That's a hint for if you don't
get the message, you need to sit down

1061
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:53,320
and be quiet now, right? It's fancy
lawyer words, and that's what it means.

1062
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:57,680
Then when it's made seconded, it shall
be stated by the mayor or read by the

1063
01:11:55,360 --> 01:12:03,400
clerk treasurer, right? That's again,
motion second, what is the question?

1064
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:07,080
Then any discussion? But that's fine. So
what I just said was basic Robert's

1065
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:10,720
Rules, but it's actually what your
ordinance has adopted, and that's not a

1066
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:14,760
coincidence, right? They they've adopted
traditional Robert's Rules parliamentary

1067
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:18,400
procedure.
Five. Okay, so now we're under

1068
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:23,080
discussion. It says, "No action shall be
in order except This is basically

1069
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:27,800
whittling the field of possible Robert's
Rules motions from infinite to A through

1070
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:31,280
G. Those are the only motions you can
make during the discussion, and some of

1071
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:35,920
them um
are more extreme than others. One of the

1072
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:40,040
things I like to say uh is clarifying
what a motion to lay on the table is.

1073
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:44,320
Everyone thinks to table something is to
put it on the next agenda for the next

1074
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:47,960
meeting. That's not what it means.
That's what D, to postpone to a certain

1075
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:51,880
date, is.
So the motion to put it on the table is

1076
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:55,200
a totally different thing. It requires
you to take it up in a certain amount of

1077
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:59,320
time and with a certain amount of thing.
Laying on the table is not the motion

1078
01:12:56,520 --> 01:13:03,040
you want. You want postpone to a certain
day. That's just one of my little

1079
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:06,720
Robert's Rules pet peeves.
Um but notice postpone to certain day is

1080
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:10,200
different than postpone indefinitely.
Right? If you If it's I want to talk

1081
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:15,360
about it at the next meeting, I propose
I recommend postponing this motion until

1082
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:18,160
the next meeting on name of the day. Or
you can make the motion of a postpone

1083
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:22,560
this indefinitely. I don't want to see
it again until, right? Something

1084
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:26,840
happens.
Which could be in a week, could be in a

1085
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:31,000
month, or it could be never.
And they even have established which

1086
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:34,960
motions take precedence over the other
in case you get motions on motions on

1087
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:38,440
motions. You go in order top down. We're
getting a little in the weeds on that

1088
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,440
now.

1089
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:45,080
If you want debate to end, but it says
right there, "A move the previous

1090
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:48,320
question." It's calling the question,
moving the previous question, also the

1091
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:51,200
same thing as close debate. There's like
three different words for the same

1092
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:54,720
thing. I would say you have the most
old-fashioned one with move.

1093
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,320
Uh remove the previous question. But
anyway, it says

1094
01:13:56,200 --> 01:14:01,440
"Then the presiding officer announces
the question. And then if a majority

1095
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:04,480
members vote in the affirmative,
the main question shall be taken without

1096
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:08,720
further debate."
The effect is such end to the debate,

1097
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:11,480
bring it to a vote. You first deal with
the amendments, blah blah blah, and then

1098
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:15,960
you get it done.
So, there is a process to bring the

1099
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:19,480
debate to a close. Um
debates should not be ongoing and

1100
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:23,520
frankly sometimes it can't be until it
reaches its logical starting stopping

1101
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:28,480
point. Cuz I can see it, right? Two
aldermen or two commission members that

1102
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:32,120
are just passionately disagreeing and
they will take all night to express

1103
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:36,360
their passionate disagreement.
That's the motion. Call the previous

1104
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:39,960
question, call the question, motion to
close debate, whatever it is. And then

1105
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:44,040
if that motion passes,
we go to the final vote. Don't forget

1106
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:48,240
though that motion to close debate is
its own motion. So, it needs a motion,

1107
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:53,280
it needs a second, it needs a vote.
You cannot debate a motion to close

1108
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:57,240
debate. One fact, right? Cuz then you'd
have a motion to close the debate of

1109
01:14:55,080 --> 01:15:01,280
motion to close the debate. So, you
can't do that infinitely.

1110
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:04,840
You can just call it, no discussion,
does it pass or does it fail? If it

1111
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:10,480
fails, back to the discussion. If it
passes, on to the vote. And those votes

1112
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:15,000
can change, right? As as the night grows
long and the sun sets, we want I can

1113
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:17,240
easily see someone flipping their vote
to move on.

1114
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:20,480
Including, by the way, the people that
are still debating. They might be like,

1115
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:22,120
all right, I'm done, you too.
All right.

1116
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,720
» What's your
>> Yes.

1117
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:29,640
» So, you can't make a motion to make the
big debate or end the

1118
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:32,200
the discussion and the debate and
proceed to vote.

1119
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:36,200
» You can't. Yeah, that's called move the
previous question. Yeah.

1120
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:40,200
So, that's number six. What you can't
do, so you get a motion to close the

1121
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:43,280
debate, all right? That's on the table,
get a second.

1122
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:45,720
You can't discuss it.
Can't debate the motion to close the

1123
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:49,720
debate.
>> What if the action is taken to close the

1124
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:53,800
discussion and proceed to vote?
>> Yeah, you're good.

1125
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:58,400
» You don't have to put that extra step.
>> No, you don't have to. I'm saying you

1126
01:15:55,520 --> 01:16:00,960
can't. So, we're saying the same thing.
A motion to close the debate, you can't

1127
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:04,640
debate whether or not we're going to
talk about about closing it. Which I

1128
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,960
absolutely have seen happen. We can't
stop talking about this. This is too

1129
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:11,200
important, right?
>> I was hearing an extra vote at the end

1130
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,840
of the debate.
>> Yeah.

1131
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,600
» Another motion has to be made to proceed
to vote.

1132
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:19,080
» See the picture of this taking its own
tail? That's what it is, right? We can't

1133
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:22,920
just keep debating whether we should
still be debating this. It's a It's

1134
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:26,520
designed to be a quick motion to bring
it to a resolution. And if the if the

1135
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:30,280
debate isn't done, then the motion
fails, onward you go. But that's a

1136
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:33,560
motion I think is probably one of the
most useful motions, cuz we've all been

1137
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:36,360
at that meeting where you're like, are
we

1138
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:41,160
still talking about this, right? And
it's not representing a majority of the

1139
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:44,600
commission of the council.
Notice you have a um

1140
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:48,520
a requirement that a roll call vote be
taken on every question. Robert's Rules

1141
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,440
does not require roll call vote for
every question, but your ordinance does,

1142
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:55,720
which means every time you vote, you got
to go name the person and name the way

1143
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:58,720
they vote. Nothing wrong with that. It's
just a formality that that you've made

1144
01:16:57,480 --> 01:17:02,520
you've chosen.
Um in other um if it weren't for this

1145
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:08,360
ordinance, you could do certain things
by consensus. Um you can One example of

1146
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:11,280
you have to have a roll call vote by law
would be going into closed session.

1147
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:15,560
You're going to go into closed session,
you must do a roll call vote because if

1148
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:20,560
you go into an improper closed session
and you voted for it, you can be sued.

1149
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:23,560
So, they need to know who you are. Um
most of the time though it's not it's

1150
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:26,960
not necessary. It's just a formality
that you know, people like so that if

1151
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:29,520
there's controversy, they know what
people stand on the issues.

1152
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,640
» But what about the question?
>> Yeah.

1153
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:34,920
» Does that go for all committees,
resolutions, and so on?

1154
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:40,480
» That's a good question. I do believe
technically this is just about the

1155
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:44,520
council, but I do think there is a
It wouldn't be the worst framework to

1156
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:48,160
use for for committees as well. But if
you normally don't collect the eyes and

1157
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:51,120
nays, right, the votes, you don't
necessarily have to. But the rule about

1158
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,880
if you're going to go into closed
session,

1159
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:56,080
uh that always has to be a roll call by
law.

1160
01:17:55,480 --> 01:18:00,320
Good question.
>> Our best practice is all the time it's a

1161
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:02,800
roll call vote for a resolution.
>> Mhm.

1162
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:06,360
» Or for something finance.
>> Yeah. Or and you should add to go into

1163
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:09,000
closed session, too, because the law
would require that.

1164
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:12,720
» Right. That would but in
the day and day committee any votes that

1165
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:14,480
are at the level we don't do a roll call
vote.

1166
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:17,720
» I I think at the committee level that's
okay, but the council

1167
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:19,280
should per this ordinance
>> Council level, too.

1168
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:22,840
» Well,
>> we don't when we approve minutes of

1169
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:26,800
previous meetings, we don't take a roll
call vote. We

1170
01:18:24,480 --> 01:18:28,720
the mayor calls for for the eye and
everybody

1171
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:31,160
» Then I would recommend changing your
ordinance because I don't think there's

1172
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:35,520
a problem with doing that. That's the
way most people do it. But this says a

1173
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:38,680
roll call shall be taken on every
question. So, if you're like, "Well, we

1174
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:42,400
don't want to need to do that." Right?
You could say, "Well, just strike it." I

1175
01:18:40,440 --> 01:18:45,640
mean, just take it out entirely. Then,
the law and Robert's Rules would take an

1176
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:49,200
effect. Cuz you're right, financing, you
need to know votes, resolutions. That's

1177
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:52,720
why they're more formal and and close
sessions. So, like I said, the the law

1178
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:55,760
doesn't require you to Your own
ordinances require you to, and you

1179
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:59,200
control the ordinances. So, if you don't
like it, you vote to change it. Just

1180
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:02,680
make sure you change it with a roll call
vote cuz it said you had to. One last

1181
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:06,240
time.
Um and then, a motion to adjourn is

1182
01:19:04,440 --> 01:19:11,080
always in order, which means that if
this is you just always do it, right? Um

1183
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:15,800
and once you have a motion to adjourn,
uh you if it passes, you all get to go

1184
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:19,720
home. So, it's an extreme version of a
motion to close debate. Um but notice it

1185
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:24,280
is the first thing on the order of
priorities, which means it controls over

1186
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:27,120
everything. That avoids the filibuster
of, "Oh, no, we're going to stay here

1187
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:30,640
all night until you do what I want."
Nope, we adjourn. See you.

1188
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:32,640
And then, it's going to be another 24
hours before you can meet cuz you have

1189
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:35,160
to post the meeting.
>> So, you're saying no roll call for

1190
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,920
adjourn.
>> You don't You don't have to roll call

1191
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:40,360
for adjourn.
>> say roll call for every question.

1192
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:43,840
» Oh, sorry. Your ordinance says yes, you
would technically have to do so. But if

1193
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:48,320
you got rid of that, the law doesn't
require you to. Yeah.

1194
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:51,160
So, again, it's it's a formality, right?
And I'm sure when these were written,

1195
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,280
there was a perfectly good reason why
they wanted that, right? There's no

1196
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:58,120
video, they wanted a little more
documentation, but the law doesn't

1197
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:02,440
require that. So, you can get some
efficiency there if you'd like.

1198
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:06,160
Um all right.
Notice I talked about reconsideration.

1199
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:10,400
There's a reason for that. It's called
council. That's basically um where you

1200
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:12,560
want a more formal vote.
I want to talk a little bit about the

1201
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:16,280
sergeants-at-arms and disorderly
conduct, right? Um

1202
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:19,280
if you're debating something
passionately and there's a bunch of

1203
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:22,720
people in the office that in the
audience, which

1204
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:26,960
uh not to pick on you guys, but but they
have a a and you know, they really don't

1205
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:31,120
want you to pass this thing, right? And
they just start interrupting you while

1206
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:34,400
you're while you're trying to to
Um

1207
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:38,040
the chair usually knocks their
theoretical gavel. We don't have gavels,

1208
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:42,840
right?
Order, right? I'm calling for order.

1209
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:47,640
Um if that doesn't work, you can name
the offender, which is

1210
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:51,720
order, I instruct you to sit down and
stop interrupting the meeting.

1211
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:56,000
They don't stop.
You're out of order. What does it say?

1212
01:20:53,400 --> 01:21:01,120
You can do in extreme, the mayor can
cause the room room to be cleared, which

1213
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:05,760
is you need to leave now.
If they don't,

1214
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:10,440
the mayor or presiding officer may order
the chief of police to come and take

1215
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:13,911
them into custody. So, Chief Field,
that's you. You're going to have to do

1216
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:17,320
it all personally. Uh-huh.
>> [laughter]

1217
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:21,600
» But in seriousness, you that's the level
of authority you have in controlling

1218
01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:24,720
your meetings, right? 99.9%
of the time you're not going to have to

1219
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:28,560
haul someone out, but sometimes you
might have to explain to someone that

1220
01:21:26,480 --> 01:21:31,200
you could in order for them to realize I
better sit down.

1221
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:35,160
Um
I I It's It's been since COVID since

1222
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:38,000
I've actually seen anyone arrested. Uh
it's a good way to make the front page

1223
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:42,160
for your city, by the way, if you haul
someone out of it. So, be careful about

1224
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:46,000
it. But then is
it's important to know what what the

1225
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:48,560
framework is so that we can resolve the
dispute well before it reaches that

1226
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:52,720
level.
What you can't do, by the way, is throw

1227
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:56,280
an alder out of your meeting. So, no
matter how frustrating you get, you

1228
01:21:54,840 --> 01:22:00,000
can't throw out an alder and you can't
throw out a commission member, either.

1229
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:03,880
They, by law, have the right to be at
the meeting. Um if they're being unruly,

1230
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:08,880
there's a lot of other things you can do
to them. Let's go to the back of this

1231
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:13,080
outline. But you can't kick them out.
All right. Questions about how to run

1232
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:16,080
official meetings, some of that basic
parliamentary stuff?

1233
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:21,640
Yeah.
>> So, explain to me stuff like I take

1234
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:24,960
table something and put it table in a
second and pass it. Who can bring it

1235
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:28,360
back off the table?
>> That's why I would recommend not tabling

1236
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:31,600
it. I would recommend making it a
motion.

1237
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:33,720
» Who's going to bring it back live?
>> Right.

1238
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:38,080
» People that made the motion
>> If you table it, only the people that

1239
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:41,560
made the motion. If you postpone it,
then it can be on the regular agenda for

1240
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:45,960
the next meeting. And that's where I
find people use them

1241
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:49,920
interchangeably. And so, if you're going
to lay it on the table, you're going to

1242
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:53,200
say, "Until this person brings it back
up." And you may not actually have

1243
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:56,640
intended it to give them that level of
authority over the issue. That's where I

1244
01:22:55,000 --> 01:23:00,520
think motion to postpone is what most
people intend when they make that

1245
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:04,240
motion, which is let's talk about it
next meeting when so-and-so is here.

1246
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:06,720
That's what I see most common. Good
question.

1247
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:11,760
All right. Let's talk about
confidentiality briefly. It's a very

1248
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:15,080
important thing of what we do, and it's
the little opposite of everything we

1249
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:18,560
were talking about before this, right?
Everything else is about how do we do

1250
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:24,040
this openly without any secrets, right?
The people have a right to know.

1251
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:27,720
There are times where you have a right
to do things privately.

1252
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:31,040
And it is really important that if
you're going to go into a closed

1253
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:34,680
session, that you
have a specific reason for doing so, and

1254
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:37,000
that specific reason is noted on the
agenda.

1255
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:41,080
And that there's a motion to go into
closed session, and there's a second,

1256
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:44,480
and there's a roll call vote, then you
go in to the closed session.

1257
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:50,080
Once you're in the closed session, you
need to stay within the discussion noted

1258
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:52,480
on the agenda. You can't just say, "Ooh,
we have a closed session at the next

1259
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:57,000
meeting. I'm going to throw this in
there so that they know." That is a

1260
01:23:54,600 --> 01:24:00,160
violation of the open meetings law.
You might be now thinking to yourself,

1261
01:23:58,480 --> 01:24:05,920
"Well, if I turn the camera off, and
it's just us, how is anyone going to

1262
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:10,120
find out that we exceeded the the
scope of that closed session?" There is

1263
01:24:07,440 --> 01:24:13,840
two ways. One would be a deposition,
right? There's a lawsuit, and a lawyer's

1264
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:17,800
going to sit you down and under oath
say, "Did you talk about this?" And if

1265
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:22,360
you lie under oath, that comes with the
penalty of contempt.

1266
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:28,520
Um, but the other um way in which this
resolves itself is perhaps even a little

1267
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:32,960
bit snarkier, which is you can sue
yourselves.

1268
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:36,440
I have seen a very big public records
case. It was a year and a half ago. Went

1269
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:40,840
all the way up to the Wisconsin Supreme
Court and it was an alder suing the

1270
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:43,720
council for exceeding the limits of
closed session and that council member

1271
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:47,440
won.
Why you would sue yourself is a totally

1272
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:52,000
other question.
There was obviously much bigger concerns

1273
01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:56,960
there. But I say that to say your
obligation is to regulate

1274
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:59,840
as a team and you would say if someone's
getting outside of scope you'd say

1275
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:03,840
that's outside the scope. You can also
do a motion to close debate to save

1276
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:07,560
yourself from discussing something
that's outside the meeting because again

1277
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:12,760
each one of you has a separate
obligation to comply with that with the

1278
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:17,320
scope of this closed session. Most of
the time a simple reminder gets it done.

1279
01:25:15,440 --> 01:25:21,120
We're not noticed for that. Save it for
the next meeting or

1280
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:24,760
I'll consider for future closed session
meeting.

1281
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:28,240
I people skirt that closed sessions and
there's a reason for it, right? The

1282
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:31,000
public has a right to know. Except in
the limited cases when they don't have a

1283
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:35,760
right to know.
And you know, one of the

1284
01:25:32,880 --> 01:25:40,800
obvious examples is this 19.85 sub one
sub C to discuss employment matters.

1285
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:44,960
Closed session. But you have to say
which employees you're talking about.

1286
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:48,000
Not names, but like categories, right?
If you're going to talk about

1287
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:52,080
um
uh your department head, right? You

1288
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:56,880
probably have to say to discuss a
department head because it's important

1289
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:59,880
as opposed to just an employee, right?
It shouldn't even necessarily be an

1290
01:25:58,040 --> 01:26:03,240
employee. Maybe the most appropriate
thing to do would be to say an hourly

1291
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:06,000
employee or
um

1292
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:09,440
an employee from this department or a
member of the police department,

1293
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:13,120
something like that. Um
but you have to then stay within that

1294
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:17,800
framework because if you've noticed it's
talk about let's use um, a fire

1295
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:22,400
official, right? Okay, we can talk about
that fire official. And sometimes that

1296
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:25,480
means talking about another employee
because maybe they're, you know, having

1297
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,600
a disagreement.
But once you start talking about the

1298
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:32,520
other person and not talking about the
first person, you can see that the scope

1299
01:26:30,480 --> 01:26:38,760
of your closed session. It is so much
harder in in practice. And I just urge

1300
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:42,600
you to find that line and stay on the
safe side of it because it's not a

1301
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:44,760
problem until it is, right? And then you
call me and you're like, do we have a

1302
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:48,760
problem here? And I'm like, yeah, we
have a problem here. And I can't fix it

1303
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:53,320
because you already did it, right? So,
be cautious on that. Um,

1304
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:57,560
along the same lines, anything that
happens in closed session should stay in

1305
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:01,400
closed session, period. Don't tell your
wife, don't tell your department heads,

1306
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:06,200
don't tell the committee that you're on,
don't tell the citizens that elected

1307
01:27:03,440 --> 01:27:09,120
you. Closed session means no one talks
about it except for the people in that

1308
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:12,680
meeting.
The body that's meeting in closed

1309
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:15,440
session decides if anyone else gets to
come to that, right? So, you may have a

1310
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:19,480
closed session discussion on an
employment matter, maybe the department

1311
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:21,840
head does come to that meeting in order
to explain what's going on with their

1312
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:25,880
employee.
That's fine. The governing body decides

1313
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:28,960
that though. And if the governing body
says, "Nope, we're going to need you to

1314
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:32,880
leave." then they have to leave. And you
can discuss it among yourselves. So,

1315
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:36,840
it's really is important to know that
you have that authority over who can be

1316
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:40,600
here. The only thing you can't do is is
kick each other out, as I said. You have

1317
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:44,160
the the right to be here if you're on
that governmental body.

1318
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:46,680
Um,
as a general rule, the public has a

1319
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:50,640
right to record. They probably wouldn't
cuz you're recording automatically, but

1320
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:54,400
they can record. Uh,
they can't record closed session.

1321
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:59,520
Um, so sometimes when there's a closed
session, we encourage people to take all

1322
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:04,400
their things with them so there isn't,
uh, a cell phone in a bag that's still

1323
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:09,000
recording. I've had that happen, right?
Just keep in mind they that

1324
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:12,880
just like uh, the the default is
everything is open. When things are

1325
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:15,840
closed, they are closed tightly.
But there's a difference in closed

1326
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:17,920
tightly and it's never going to come
out.

1327
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:22,080
Because something that happens in a
closed session can come out. How what's

1328
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:26,080
the most common way? Well, maybe there's
a public record that was created that

1329
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:29,520
discussed what what happened. And that
public record might end up being

1330
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:32,400
published at some point. Another thing
that could happen is it could be a

1331
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:36,160
lawsuit where what you discussed in
confident in closed session needs to

1332
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:39,440
come out. Let's say if you there was
closed session you all talked about how

1333
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:43,200
you didn't want to hire this individual
because they were were a man and you

1334
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:48,120
wanted to have a female input, right?
That that statement is discriminatory

1335
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:51,760
and will get you sued. And they can ask
you that in a deposition. Did you say

1336
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:55,280
that? And you would have to say yes and
therefore it's coming out. So, I I want

1337
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:59,120
to say that that there's a big
difference between I can't I can't talk

1338
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:03,800
about it and it's never going to come
out. No one is going to let it out, but

1339
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:08,360
there are certain mechanisms to force it
out. So, don't be too confident in

1340
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:11,800
closed sessions, right? It's not
privileged. You can't say you I don't

1341
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:15,360
have to talk about that it was closed
session. That's not always how it's

1342
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:18,720
going to work if you get a subpoena.
So, just again

1343
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:24,000
you want to be thoughtful, stay within
the confines of closed session, and um

1344
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:28,080
make sure you recognize that still
whatever I say may come back and be read

1345
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:33,560
in court one day. So,
just uh just a good caution.

1346
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:36,960
This is where I um I I emphasize on
under B here. The contents of closed

1347
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:40,720
session remain confidential until the
council determines that they're no

1348
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:45,320
longer confidential, right? Here's an
example, you're going to um

1349
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:49,280
vote to approve a development, right?
It's very very um closed session while

1350
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:52,760
you're debating and negotiating the
terms. Because if it comes out what

1351
01:29:51,240 --> 01:29:56,920
you're doing, then they'll know exactly
how much you're willing to pay and you

1352
01:29:54,920 --> 01:30:02,280
lose your ability to negotiate, right?
But once the deal is signed, who cares,

1353
01:29:59,960 --> 01:30:06,040
right? Then the need for confidentiality
would end.

1354
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:12,200
Um so, that's just an example of when it
may no longer be necessary to keep it

1355
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:15,960
confidential.
There's a a lot of problems with with

1356
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:20,320
leaking
closed session business.

1357
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:24,440
One, if you the moment someone leaks
closed session business, no one else is

1358
01:30:22,480 --> 01:30:26,640
going to trust closed sessions anymore.
You might as well do it all in open

1359
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:31,000
because they're all going to be too
afraid to talk openly with each other

1360
01:30:28,440 --> 01:30:36,320
and voice your opinions. It was nothing
will erode the trust of the of the board

1361
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,880
and itself
than people leaking closed session

1362
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:43,080
things.
Right?

1363
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:47,680
It also can lead to legal liability,
right? There's a catch-all statute for

1364
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:51,440
misconduct in public office. And if you
engage in misconduct in public office,

1365
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:54,920
that can be a potential felony and that
can include publicly disclosing

1366
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:59,880
sensitive information from a closed
session. I'm not saying it's

1367
01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:02,760
automatically a felony, I'm saying it
could be. And you don't want to be the

1368
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:05,880
person that was like, "I didn't think
that one was going to be a felony."

1369
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:09,320
Um
it's just it's it is essential. And and

1370
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:13,320
the other thing about leaking is it can
just it can prevent you from doing what

1371
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:18,040
you're trying to do, right? Well, now
that everyone knows that we're

1372
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:21,000
negotiating with Biggly Wiggly, now
it doesn't even matter. We're going to

1373
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:24,880
have to cancel the deal because it's,
you know, our negotiating language has

1374
01:31:22,480 --> 01:31:28,520
been has been blown or the developer
didn't want to

1375
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:32,840
this to come out. Now that it is, they
pulled the deal, right? And that's

1376
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:36,120
that's bad in its own way.
Closed sessions are the most common form

1377
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:39,160
of confidential information that you're
going to run into, but it's not the only

1378
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:42,880
one. Any employment records and
information, any medical records of

1379
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:47,040
employees,
those are protected by law from

1380
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:51,840
disclosure. Most of the time, you as
aldermen shouldn't even know it, right?

1381
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:57,440
It should never even come to you. In the
rarest situation where someone's medical

1382
01:31:54,640 --> 01:32:02,240
status is rightfully before yours, you
cannot share that information onward.

1383
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:05,320
Example when it might come into issue is
perhaps someone needs to take an

1384
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:09,520
extended leave of absence for a medical
condition and you want to inform the

1385
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:11,538
board um that that's going to happen,
right? That this person's going to be

1386
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:13,400
out. Okay.
>> [clears throat]

1387
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:17,240
» But now you don't get to share why that
person is out, right? That needs to stay

1388
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:20,800
confidential. And I still think to some
extent you might not even need to know

1389
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:25,040
why they're out. A medical condition
might be enough or a family member's

1390
01:32:22,480 --> 01:32:28,560
medical condition may be enough.
Um there's also Wisconsin privacy

1391
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:31,800
statute which basically just says you
can't make someone's private business

1392
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:34,680
public without their permission, you
could be sued for that. And that's an

1393
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:38,920
individual cause of action they have
against you. So, uh be careful about

1394
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:42,840
that, too.
If you breach confidentiality, I've

1395
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:47,240
scared you about class I felony for
misconduct in public office, 3 and 1/2

1396
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:50,760
years, $10,000 fine. Not They're not
kidding around with that. The other

1397
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:55,680
thing to keep in mind about criminal
statutes is that the council has no

1398
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:59,480
legal obligation to defend you from
criminal charges. So, you'd be paying

1399
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:02,600
for your own attorney and you'd be
paying your own fines. Um not only would

1400
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:05,960
the council not do it, but your
insurance carrier won't do it if you're

1401
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:10,120
outside the scope of your official
duties, which you probably are if you're

1402
01:33:08,440 --> 01:33:14,120
leaking confidential information, right?
Cuz you were not supposed to do that.

1403
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:18,000
And this this applies to commissions as
well and it and it does

1404
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:21,880
um apply to employees to the extent that
they're getting um

1405
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:25,880
this information and maybe being part of
the dissemination of the information. Be

1406
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:29,720
careful with that.
So, the last topics I'm going to go over

1407
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:32,960
pretty quickly. This is the scary stuff,
right? That I don't like to emphasize in

1408
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:34,920
things like this, but what happens,
right? What happens if we just blow this

1409
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:39,080
all off?
>> Yeah. I have a quick question before we

1410
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:43,200
go into closed session. It's not
I guess in regards to

1411
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:46,520
the Robert's Rules of the Meeting
itself, but we tape film our

1412
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:53,640
meetings when we go into closed session
obviously recording them.

1413
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:57,640
When you come back and reconvene to open
session, are you required to then

1414
01:33:56,120 --> 01:34:02,240
start recording again?
>> Really good question.

1415
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:06,440
I believe that the law does require you
to go back into open session and turn

1416
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:10,960
the camera back on for
live streaming purposes. And so that

1417
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:14,640
there's a record of what happened at the
end of the meeting. Because otherwise,

1418
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:17,640
in theory, right, you could have a long
closed session, everyone's left city

1419
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:21,280
hall because they don't want to stick
around for it, and then you do something

1420
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:24,520
surprising
in the at the end of the meeting there's

1421
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:26,760
no record of it, right?
>> still be sufficient in the minutes to

1422
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:31,640
solve that.
>> Yes, but I will say it's sufficient

1423
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:35,480
until someone says, "Well, why didn't
you turn the camera back on?"

1424
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:39,440
And so, I general practice is that is
the safer course of action. I'm not

1425
01:34:37,440 --> 01:34:43,920
saying that the law absolutely requires
it, but I I I do recommend it. It's it's

1426
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:46,480
the more transparent
approach.

1427
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:49,640
Um, cuz you're right, as long as the
minutes reflect that all we did was

1428
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:53,280
adjourn, it's fine. But that isn't
always what happens, right? If this was

1429
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:56,720
a Let's use an extreme example. This was
a termination here, right? And the board

1430
01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:00,560
is deliberating on whether or not to
terminate someone. They're probably not

1431
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:05,080
terminating them in closed session. They
probably have to come out into open to

1432
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:08,480
terminate them. Which is the only thing
the public wants to know, right? They

1433
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:12,320
want to hear that motion. I find that or
not that that employee is terminated.

1434
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:15,800
Um, certainly if it's something like
that, you got to get that camera back

1435
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:19,240
on. If it's just we're
we're just adjourning right afterwards,

1436
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:23,040
less of a concern.
That makes sense.

1437
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:26,240
Good question. Really good question.
Um, so I just want to kind of talk to

1438
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:29,200
you about the bad stuff that can happen,
right? So there are some ethics rules

1439
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:33,120
you need to keep in mind, right? You
can't accept anything because of your

1440
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:36,720
official city position. In other words,
no bribes,

1441
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:40,760
right? You also can't ask for a bribe,
right? That's one. You can't ask for a

1442
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:44,160
bribe. Two, you can't accept a bribe.
Um, but three is one that sometimes

1443
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:48,840
people miss, which is you can't accept
items that could influence your vote on

1444
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:53,680
official actions or reasonably be
considered a reward for any official

1445
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:58,000
action. This is the Maybe it wasn't
technically a bribe, right? Maybe that

1446
01:35:56,160 --> 01:36:01,760
city developer just wanted to take you
out to a steak and lobster dinner,

1447
01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:05,200
right? That would catch you. It would
violate the code of ethics if the only

1448
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:08,480
reason the developer is taking you out
because he wants your wants your

1449
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:13,240
favorable vote. So, it's something to be
cautious of and it can slip in

1450
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:15,720
accidentally. I find that the public or
the private sector just doesn't

1451
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:18,440
understand these laws and they're like,
"Well, yeah, of course I'm buying you

1452
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:22,160
dinner. I'm a vendor for the for the
city. We're we're buds." I'm a vendor

1453
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:25,840
for the city. I can't take you out to
lunch because of this rule.

1454
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:29,920
So, it's just something you got to be
careful of, right? And one of the things

1455
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:34,960
I say is, "It doesn't matter if you
actually did it because of influence,

1456
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:39,760
it's going to look like it." So, you
want don't do anything that carries the

1457
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:44,920
appearance of of of impropriety.
Public private interest in public

1458
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:50,920
contracts is a criminal statute.
If you have a business that does

1459
01:36:48,440 --> 01:36:53,560
business for the city, contract with the
city.

1460
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:58,080
If that contract totals more than
$15,000

1461
01:36:55,160 --> 01:37:05,120
in in a rolling calendar year,
that is a class I felony.

1462
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:05,120
$10,000, 3 and 1/2 years in jail.

1463
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:10,800
Don't get anywhere near that $15,000
limit, right? I sometimes see people

1464
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:17,240
that are like, "Well, we'll just write
down this invoice and now it's $14,999."

1465
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:21,040
Um that's a real
harsh line. It's a strict liability

1466
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:24,840
statute. The moment you do it, boom, you
could be uh criminally prosecuted. I'm

1467
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:28,480
not saying that the first time you do
it, they're going to throw the absolute

1468
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:31,960
book at you, but it's going to
potentially get district attorneys

1469
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:35,080
interested. Um so, you want to be real
careful about that.

1470
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:39,640
The other thing to keep in mind is it
it's a prohibition in your official

1471
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:43,840
capacity and in your private capacity.
So, not only can you not vote on your

1472
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:49,560
own contract, I think people understand
that one. You can't negotiate as a

1473
01:37:47,080 --> 01:37:54,280
private citizen the contract with the
city. The moment you do that, you are

1474
01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:59,840
breaking the statute as well.
And I get it. You're like, "Well, I'm

1475
01:37:56,840 --> 01:38:03,880
the only business in town."
Strict liability. Law does not care.

1476
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:06,440
They don't create an exception for that.
So, you've got to make sure it's under

1477
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:11,880
15,000 if you're going to do something
like that. Very tricky. I have had um

1478
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:16,000
school board members and and older
persons that have had to resign once the

1479
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:19,720
statute was pointed out to them. Most
common one I've seen is the IT vendor.

1480
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:22,800
Um the IT vendor is like, "Yeah, I love
working with the schools, right? I mean,

1481
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:25,400
we do all the software.
Um I want to be on the board.

1482
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:29,480
Fantastic."
But, you can't negotiate that contract

1483
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:33,280
anymore, right? You're going to have to
give it to someone else uh in your

1484
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:35,880
organization. You have to wall yourself
out. And by the time they're done with

1485
01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:38,800
that, they're like, "No, I want to bid
on the work, right? I want to get that

1486
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:43,080
work." Well, you can't have it both
ways. So, it's definitely something to

1487
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:45,480
keep in mind. It is a very strict law.
Um

1488
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:49,560
So, let's talk broadly about
consequences. If you don't listen to

1489
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,840
anything I said tonight, what's the
worst thing that's going to happen?

1490
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:54,480
Well, the first thing that's going to
happen is I'm going to have to come out

1491
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:57,760
and talk to you. So, that's punishment
one.

1492
01:38:55,400 --> 01:39:01,400
Punishment two, right? Misconduct in
public office, it could be a crime,

1493
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:06,080
right? If you're breaking the rules, it
could be misconduct. And the the law has

1494
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:09,880
said that your ordinances and conduct
procedures

1495
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:13,040
can be the basis for a misconduct
violation. In other words, you didn't

1496
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:16,680
break the law, but you broke what the
the rules of the body itself has

1497
01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:22,360
established for itself.
Could be potential criminal charges.

1498
01:39:19,440 --> 01:39:26,360
Uh censure is basically a written
document that a majority of the of the

1499
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:30,680
body would put together, and it
basically says, "I'm saying that this

1500
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:34,160
person broke the rules, and they did
bad." And then you can add the finger

1501
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:38,400
shaking. But, that's what a censure is.
It's a formal record calling the person

1502
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:41,920
out for for being for breaking the
rules.

1503
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:45,240
It is not enforceable beyond that. It's
not like they have to leave, but it can

1504
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:48,160
be a really helpful political tool,
right? And then the community is like,

1505
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:53,320
"Yeah, that guy keeps getting in trouble
and keeps getting censured. That's a

1506
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:58,080
problem." Um it does have um persuasive
value. And it By the way, it does not

1507
01:39:55,520 --> 01:40:02,880
violate the First Amendment for um
people to get censured based on what

1508
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:06,320
they say. It is was a Supreme Court
case, the US Supreme Court case, where

1509
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:10,800
they said, "They censured me because of
what I said." And the Supreme Court

1510
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:16,080
said, "They're allowed to censure you.
It's their speech. The censure itself is

1511
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:19,440
a form of the council speaking, and you
are allowed to speak on behalf of the

1512
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:23,040
council through this formal action. So,
it's not a First Amendment issue."

1513
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:25,640
Um I had long thought that to be the
case, but when this case came down a

1514
01:40:24,440 --> 01:40:30,800
couple years ago, I was like, "Yes, I
was right." Um so, it's now very clear.

1515
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:36,000
It's not a First Amendment issue.
Common Council can remove Can remove

1516
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:38,840
holders with 3/4 of the vote for cause,
defined as inefficiency, neglect of

1517
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:43,600
duty, official misconduct, or
malfeasance. Uh I found that in

1518
01:40:41,480 --> 01:40:46,360
practice, before that vote ever occurs,
the person will likely resign by the

1519
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:50,760
time they found out that the votes are
going to realize they're going to lose.

1520
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:56,680
Um hopefully that doesn't happen. Um
the removal process can be instigated by

1521
01:40:53,720 --> 01:41:00,280
anyone. Um so, uh sorry, any resident
taxpayer. So, it doesn't have to be the

1522
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:05,800
council bringing the charges. Resident
taxpayer uh can can bring the charges

1523
01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:10,240
against a public official. They would be
before the board could terminate, there

1524
01:41:08,440 --> 01:41:12,080
would have to be a chance for that
person to defend themselves.

1525
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:16,160
» [cough]
>> Notice, though, that is before you

1526
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:20,280
terminate. If you get a complaint and
you just dismiss it, you you don't have

1527
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:25,280
to go through all these steps. Certain
complaints don't rise to the level of a

1528
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:29,200
general board member or council agenda.
That happens, you just let it die. But

1529
01:41:27,480 --> 01:41:33,080
if you're going to keep and make this an
issue, then there is a process there,

1530
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:37,440
and it's all established by act. It's
also um

1531
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:42,040
a process for a judge uh to
uh re- remove someone, but that doesn't

1532
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:46,120
happen. I mean, that actually never
happened. And then, recall, right?

1533
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:49,600
Recall got a lot harder about
Oh, I used to say a few years ago, and

1534
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:53,000
now I'm realizing it's like 20. Um it
was back when Governor Walker faced a

1535
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:58,200
recall election. They then changed the
number of signatures, increased them. Um

1536
01:41:55,240 --> 01:42:02,520
so, you now need 25% of the vote cast
for governor within the city.

1537
01:42:00,760 --> 01:42:07,760
Um so, whoever voted in the office for
governor, figure that out. 25% of them

1538
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:12,320
need to sign your petition in order to
even get a recall election scheduled.

1539
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:17,080
And then, you have to pass the recall
election. It's a very complicated

1540
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:21,680
process, but it is one of those things
that usually is combined with a censure

1541
01:42:19,280 --> 01:42:27,520
in order to get someone to resign rather
than go out kicking and screaming.

1542
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:30,440
The most obvious consequence is if you
break all these rules, you run the risk

1543
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:33,600
of the community not wanting to vote for
you anymore because you're

1544
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:37,160
you're considered a disruption and not
part of the team.

1545
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:40,280
Um cuz you can't get anything done if
all you're doing is screaming, right?

1546
01:42:38,480 --> 01:42:44,280
You need to work within the system to
achieve your objectives.

1547
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:47,440
Other issues that can happen is
liability. You can get sued as an

1548
01:42:45,880 --> 01:42:52,080
individual. One of the things you can be
sued for is defamation. You're in a

1549
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:55,680
public meeting and you say some horrible
thing about someone, and it's not an

1550
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:59,440
opinion, right? You're just You're just
saying that they did this,

1551
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:03,560
and you know that's wrong,
you could be sued for that. That could

1552
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:07,240
be liable for defamation. However, it is
not defamation to give someone your

1553
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:10,520
opinion
or to tell the truth.

1554
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:13,640
Those are Those are absolute defenses to
defamation.

1555
01:43:11,720 --> 01:43:17,600
But, it is definitely something to be
concerned of. I see it most often during

1556
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:21,160
public appearances where someone is
going to call out someone, and you're

1557
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:26,040
worried that they might be engaging in
defamation in public comment. I usually

1558
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:30,480
say when that happens is after the
person's done speaking, uh the mayor can

1559
01:43:28,440 --> 01:43:33,720
say, or whoever is the presiding officer
can say,

1560
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:37,240
"This represents the the views of an
individual and do not represent the

1561
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:41,560
council as a whole. Moving on. Right, if
you just want to just claim that it's

1562
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:44,400
not us engaging in potential defamation.
I sometimes that that write a little

1563
01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:48,720
blurb that they read to the public
before and it says you get the 2

1564
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:53,840
minutes, 15 minutes total, and you're
not protected from from liability for

1565
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:58,200
what you say. Just FYI. And sometimes it
helps diffuse tension.

1566
01:43:56,040 --> 01:44:02,000
Talk about invasion of privacy.
Um

1567
01:43:59,960 --> 01:44:05,120
Where does this all go? Well, if you get
sued, you have insurance, which is good.

1568
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:08,120
This that means you're only out your
deductible.

1569
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:13,240
But, the insurance policy isn't
unlimited. There's always exclusions to

1570
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:17,160
an insurance policy. And it is an
exclusion if you're acting outside of

1571
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:19,560
the scope of your job. If you're doing
things that you're not supposed to be

1572
01:44:18,400 --> 01:44:23,200
doing,
this they you their insurance company's

1573
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:26,200
not going to cover you. And I just spent
all this time telling you what it is

1574
01:44:24,480 --> 01:44:28,520
you're allowed to do and not do. So, you
don't want to fall outside of that

1575
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:32,360
coverage cuz then you're paying for your
own attorney and you're paying for your

1576
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:35,200
own damages.
Um if you're not cooperating with the

1577
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:38,760
insurance company when they're trying to
defend you, they can deny the claim and

1578
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:41,960
deny your coverage of it. So, if they're
like, "Hey, I you're getting sued for

1579
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:44,800
public records. I need your phone. I
need those records." and you refuse to

1580
01:44:43,440 --> 01:44:48,000
do it,
insurance company may say,

1581
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:51,640
"No, we no longer have to defend you
because you're not cooperating."

1582
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:55,040
Um
Similarly, the city has an obligation to

1583
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:59,120
defend as long as you're in your
official capacity. There's also an

1584
01:44:57,080 --> 01:45:02,400
immunity statute that covers you from
your official actions if they're

1585
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:05,520
discretionary.
But,

1586
01:45:03,480 --> 01:45:11,520
notice there are exceptions to it,
right? And and at the end of the day,

1587
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:17,000
the standard is don't do anything
stupid, right? Don't invade someone's

1588
01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:21,080
rights. Don't exceed your authority. Cuz
if you do, a lawyer's going to find five

1589
01:45:19,440 --> 01:45:23,760
or six ways to bring claims against you,
right? They're not just going to put all

1590
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:26,840
their eggs in one basket. They're going
to put a couple different causes of

1591
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:31,040
action in there. So, try to stay on the
up and up, and hopefully you won't ever

1592
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:34,560
have to deal with that.
So, I was able to get through what I

1593
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:37,920
wanted to, uh but I'd love to answer any
last-minute questions you have.

1594
01:45:38,480 --> 01:45:44,760
» We were going to cover the
title [clears throat] list on the

1595
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:44,760
agenda, the approval of the minutes.

1596
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:51,080
You may have covered it, but
>> Oh, yeah. We we we we talked about that

1597
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:56,880
being an agenda item. So, your ordinance
says that you have to read the minutes,

1598
01:45:54,800 --> 01:46:00,640
and then approve them.
Because that's what your ordinance says,

1599
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:03,880
that's what you're supposed to do.
Please stop doing that, right? You don't

1600
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:06,880
need to read the minutes out loud. So,
you could change your ordinance to

1601
01:46:05,440 --> 01:46:10,920
simply say
minutes will will be approved, um and

1602
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:14,360
you can say that they will be submitted
in writing or something like that.

1603
01:46:12,480 --> 01:46:17,440
Because, again, you can just read them.
They shouldn't be all that complicated,

1604
01:46:16,040 --> 01:46:21,880
because really they're just a record of
votes. Um and then, you can just approve

1605
01:46:20,480 --> 01:46:25,480
them and move on. It can be a simple
motion. And if, by the way, simple

1606
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:29,520
motion, but you have a question about
it, then ask the question during the

1607
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:33,880
discussion. Hey, I noticed it says this,
or I didn't vote that way. Let's make a

1608
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:38,040
correction. That can all happen, even
though you're not actually reading the

1609
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:42,320
the minutes out loud. I
I I get the spirit of it, but again, now

1610
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:45,640
that you're recording and archiving
this, you don't need to recap the last

1611
01:46:44,040 --> 01:46:49,880
meeting. Someone can go find the minutes
online. They can find the recordings.

1612
01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:53,320
Just just a fish.
>> Yep. Just approve them. That's what most

1613
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:58,600
people do.
>> So, the item on the agenda should be

1614
01:46:56,240 --> 01:47:02,200
approved minutes as presented.
>> It should just say approve minutes. It

1615
01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:05,600
doesn't It shouldn't say as read, but it
should say approve minutes.

1616
01:47:04,160 --> 01:47:08,840
» Ours have never said as read.
>> Right, but your ordinance says it.

1617
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:12,040
» And all our ordinances
>> That's why you're doing it. So, so

1618
01:47:10,480 --> 01:47:14,720
don't, you know, just just change your
ordinance. And my guess is after this

1619
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:17,800
presentation, there'll be a few things
you're like, why are we doing it this

1620
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:21,320
way? And you might go, okay, just tweak
some of your ordinances to be a little

1621
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:25,560
more efficient. Cuz I I was trying to
give you the the balance between what

1622
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:30,000
the law requires and what your past
practices require. And that's just one I

1623
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:34,400
think you can definitely change without
a lot of public scrutiny. You're not

1624
01:47:32,040 --> 01:47:36,880
hiding anything. There's a camera now.
>> So in other words, our ordinances are

1625
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:40,360
maybe a little outdated.
>> Yeah, I think that's true.

1626
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:45,040
And I I I think what I was
saying when calling the question was was

1627
01:47:42,280 --> 01:47:48,520
worded as previous previous question. I
was like, "Ooh, haven't seen that one in

1628
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:50,819
quite a bit." So, yeah.
They all need a refresh from time to

1629
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:53,600
time.
>> [snorts]

1630
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:56,600
» And I primarily work with the city on on
labor and employment matters, but I do

1631
01:47:55,160 --> 01:48:01,480
have other counsel that helps you on
general matters that can help you with

1632
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:04,920
the getting your muni code updates in
place.

1633
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:07,560
» I have a question about having a meeting
about potential hiring of new

1634
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:10,920
candidates.
>> Mhm.

1635
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:15,480
» Um when you're discussing
candidates, are we allowed or

1636
01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:20,440
I guess up to this point we've always
did candidate one, two, three, give it a

1637
01:48:17,480 --> 01:48:25,600
number because we want to protect
that person. They're obviously seeking a

1638
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:29,840
job from a different employer, possibly.
Are we allowed to do that? Or are we

1639
01:48:26,680 --> 01:48:33,160
supposed to be disclosing names with
>> Good good good question. Um

1640
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:36,360
if you're talking about a committee
level and they're considering a

1641
01:48:34,240 --> 01:48:40,920
candidate for hire, on the agenda you
can just say discuss candidates for

1642
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:45,560
exposition. Then in the closed session
you you can use the names.

1643
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:49,240
Um they're not supposed to leave that
room, right? That's what part of that

1644
01:48:47,040 --> 01:48:53,760
the emphasis on closed session is. So,
if the everyone is following the rules,

1645
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:58,200
you can use the names.
If you're nervous someone isn't going to

1646
01:48:55,640 --> 01:49:01,880
follow the rules, then candidate A, you
know, A, B, C, and D, and E could be an

1647
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:04,680
option.
But,

1648
01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:08,800
um
that may not be the best answer because

1649
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:12,640
you sometimes just know the person,
right? You might know something

1650
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:14,880
some context. Or frankly, you might not
know that it's someone that you

1651
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:19,560
shouldn't be talking about, right?
That's really close to you. So, I think

1652
01:49:17,080 --> 01:49:23,320
that I get the point of it, but I think
it's going to be a little bit more of a

1653
01:49:21,200 --> 01:49:27,240
hindrance than a help. Um the other
thing is there is a law under the public

1654
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:30,720
records law that they have to you have
to

1655
01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:31,960
um disclose the names of final
candidates.

1656
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:36,600
» Yeah.
>> Um and so you always have to balance the

1657
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:40,240
well, is this the final candidates? All
right, the statute says it's less than

1658
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:43,720
five, but it can be fewer than that if
you know, you depending on how you start

1659
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:48,760
it. I think in practice most people are
talking about they're having like one

1660
01:49:46,440 --> 01:49:51,920
meeting that talks about everyone like
A, B, and C. Those are probably your

1661
01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:54,720
final candidates. So, you're not even
going to be able to keep them

1662
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:59,240
confidential if there's a public records
request. Um so again, a little bit of a

1663
01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:02,640
balance. I think ultimately the thing to
do is respect them and go, "Hey,

1664
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:06,320
we are going to have to disclose your
name, but it's confidential in closed

1665
01:50:04,200 --> 01:50:09,640
session and and hopefully that's the end
of it."

1666
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:13,040
Yeah, that's always a tough balance.
Good question.

1667
01:50:11,160 --> 01:50:16,840
» But we don't make any decisions in
closed session. We wait till we come out

1668
01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:19,560
of the closed session and then post the
findings, which would [clears throat] be

1669
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:24,160
open to the public.
>> But you wouldn't then give up everyone's

1670
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:25,520
name, just the person you offered.
>> The final candidate.

1671
01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:29,400
» Just the final candidate.
>> Yeah. At that point, here are the names

1672
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:32,800
that we've discussed. Here's the person
who got the job. They're going to all

1673
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:35,600
focus on the who who got the job. That's
what you talk about in open. In open you

1674
01:50:34,440 --> 01:50:40,880
won't talk about the candidates you
didn't hire.

1675
01:50:37,880 --> 01:50:44,800
» I think he is referring to the the point
the guy might not accept it.

1676
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:48,000
» It it was both, right? Both there's
potential multiple candidates, but in

1677
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:49,920
the end you're making an offer to
someone that could turn around and say

1678
01:50:49,360 --> 01:50:56,120
no.
>> You you can in closed session do a

1679
01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:57,400
motion to negotiate with a specific
candidate.

1680
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:00,920
» Okay.
>> And you would designate like motion have

1681
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:04,800
the chair or the department head
negotiate for the hiring of this

1682
01:51:02,480 --> 01:51:10,200
candidate. Um and kind of give them
authority, right? Up to $75,000, right?

1683
01:51:08,080 --> 01:51:14,920
And then they go in and they negotiate
it. That would then stay in closed up

1684
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:17,920
until the point of of the hiring. Once
they're hired, then that's no longer

1685
01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:20,880
confidential. But that can happen,
especially if it's a particularly

1686
01:51:19,480 --> 01:51:25,000
sensitive hire.
>> So, after you left closed session, how

1687
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:29,080
would you record your findings then?
>> You You wouldn't. Uh that would be a

1688
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:31,840
motion you could take in closed session
and approve in closed session.

1689
01:51:30,440 --> 01:51:34,680
» It's like your findings would be no
action.

1690
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:38,360
» No, cuz that would be a lie. It You
would have You would have closed session

1691
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:41,600
You'd have minutes for the closed
session. Cuz you'd have to record that

1692
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:45,240
agenda. So, then you leave closed
session, what do you put for findings?

1693
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,240
You would have to reconvene in the
closed session the next meeting,

1694
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:50,120
correct?
Well, if you're going to

1695
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:53,360
If you're going to discuss it further,
yes. Otherwise, you can just have those

1696
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:56,520
minutes be approved in open session and
no one talks about them. Right? It's

1697
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:59,200
just routine.
But yeah, you wouldn't have to have You

1698
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:02,320
don't have to have findings in closed
session. You just come out of closed

1699
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:05,960
session.
Yeah. It was It was What happened in

1700
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:09,360
closed session, you don't get to know.
It was closed session.

1701
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:12,120
Yeah. Well, and it's cuz it's rare,
right? I mean, I can only think of like

1702
01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:16,600
one example of an employment matter you
do in closed. Um negotiating it It's

1703
01:52:14,760 --> 01:52:18,120
under sub E of the closed.
>> It would be the same thing like you

1704
01:52:17,360 --> 01:52:21,320
said,
negotiation with a developer. Something

1705
01:52:20,120 --> 01:52:23,840
like that would be the same thing.
You're kind of, yeah, leaving it out

1706
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:28,120
there for the
>> the rule is not no action in closed

1707
01:52:26,200 --> 01:52:30,200
session. The rule is
um

1708
01:52:28,760 --> 01:52:34,040
if you're going to take action in closed
session, it has to be because if you

1709
01:52:32,480 --> 01:52:36,960
didn't, it would undermine the purpose
of everything.

1710
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:41,400
And that's where negotiation is is the
best example. So, in practice, it's

1711
01:52:39,480 --> 01:52:44,520
almost all the time. But there's an
important exception that that we were

1712
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:45,440
just discussing.
Yeah.

1713
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:48,600
» So,
just to reiterate, when we are in closed

1714
01:52:47,440 --> 01:52:52,480
session
it's just a discussion

1715
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:55,160
to decide to hire an employee
or give away something or whatever it

1716
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:58,960
is.
And when we come out of closed session,

1717
01:52:56,480 --> 01:53:03,160
we've always had on our agendas
to school staff or something.

1718
01:53:00,480 --> 01:53:06,160
» I Yes, I absolutely would as a routine
action, I would. I would do the open

1719
01:53:05,120 --> 01:53:10,840
session.
But if it's someone that you're not sure

1720
01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:15,280
is going to take the job and you're not
sure you can meet their offer and their

1721
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:19,400
expectation, this is a motion to have
that discussion. That's not going to be

1722
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:24,240
the end of it then. Yeah, once that
person is hired then it will be it will

1723
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:26,120
become public. So, routine you don't
have to do it.

1724
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:30,840
» So then
should the

1725
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:32,440
commission council keep records of
closed session minutes?

1726
01:53:32,120 --> 01:53:34,480
» Yes.
>> If so

1727
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:37,240
» Yes.
>> I assume you got to keep them but then

1728
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:40,280
the findings will come out.
>> Yeah, you would keep the closed session

1729
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:44,320
minutes and they would be approved like
any other minutes.

1730
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:47,360
Um there may be a time at which they
become a public record subject to

1731
01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:50,680
disclosure because once you hired the
person there's no reason to keep it

1732
01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:53,160
secret. Um
so it it's kind of one of those things

1733
01:53:52,000 --> 01:53:58,360
where it's confidential until all of a
sudden it's not.

1734
01:53:55,400 --> 01:53:58,360
Yeah, [snorts] good question.

1735
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:05,160
Yeah.
>> So when you go into closed session in a

1736
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:05,880
committee meeting
>> Mhm.

1737
01:54:05,484 --> 01:54:08,560
» [clears throat]
>> does that require roll call?

1738
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:11,240
» Yes.
Everybody has to do a roll call vote in

1739
01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:12,920
to close.
>> And out?

1740
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:15,560
» Yeah, um
technically not out but a lot of people

1741
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:18,560
do it.
>> Yeah, where do we get all this wrong

1742
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:19,880
wrong information?
>> It's the way it's always done in the

1743
01:54:19,800 --> 01:54:22,080
past.
>> that for

1744
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:24,760
well before I got here.
>> This is something that we've just been

1745
01:54:23,240 --> 01:54:29,400
doing in the last couple of years.
>> From roll call vote out?

1746
01:54:27,440 --> 01:54:34,120
» Do you recommend in and out?
>> No, I in I definitely I mean that you

1747
01:54:31,600 --> 01:54:38,800
have to. Out doesn't really matter. I
I've never actually heard of someone

1748
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:43,080
fighting out of open out of closed so
it's usually always unanimous anyway.

1749
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:46,120
So, that makes it easier. It's a roll
call vote by default.

1750
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:55,520
It's a great question.
Anything else?

1751
01:54:54,320 --> 01:55:01,000
Tired of me and want to move on to the
other agenda item that has something to

1752
01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:01,000
do with something that isn't me?

1753
01:55:01,159 --> 01:55:05,799
» [laughter]
>> So I think it's wages.

1754
01:55:03,779 --> 01:55:05,799
» [clears throat]

1755
01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:10,840
» Thank you guys so much for having me.
You want me to stick around for the this

1756
01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:14,760
vote or Yeah, I'm going to marry wine.
All right. I will take off and I will

1757
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:18,400
leave you with the extra copies if
someone couldn't be here.

1758
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:21,760
Thank you guys so much.
I'll be back at some point.

1759
01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:31,240
» Go ahead, Jane.
So, we are on number three,

1760
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:36,240
resolution 35 2025 to approve city wage
scale.

1761
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:41,120
Uh we have those attached here.
And [clears throat]

1762
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:46,800
we have a motion to approve the
city wage scale

1763
01:55:43,840 --> 01:55:46,800
as amended.

1764
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:16,320
I.
Troy.

1765
01:56:12,120 --> 01:56:16,320
I'll second. Who second by Lee?

1766
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:22,280
Any discussion on approving the city
wage scale?

1767
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:29,960
It is amended. It's amended. Well, we
have to amend the existing wage scale.

1768
01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:39,680
There was a previous wage increase for
an employee

1769
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:44,800
and that wage was not on the wage scale.
So, the wage scale had to be amended to

1770
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:51,080
» accommodate that.
>> accommodate

1771
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:51,080
uh the wage increase that was received.

1772
01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:55,160
» This one is utility.

1773
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:09,680
» So, since the city wage scale is
approved by council every year,

1774
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:14,000
um it was
mandatory that this happened.

1775
01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:18,120
Um typically it's
you know, for once for

1776
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:27,000
the coming year, but since she or there
was a wage that was increased mid-year,

1777
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:30,560
um that has had to be addressed.
>> And for those members that are not on

1778
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:33,400
Utility Commission,
it's specifically the Utility Billing

1779
01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:37,080
Clerk.
>> Correct.

1780
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:39,480
» So, if you want to look at that line,
that's

1781
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:47,800
as there's an amount recommended by the
by the Utility Commissioner.

1782
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:47,800
» Mhm.

1783
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:56,720
» Does anybody have have any more
discussion on this?

1784
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:56,720
Any questions?

1785
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:02,640
Okay.
Then we'll take a roll call vote.

1786
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:03,880
» Justin?
>> Aye.

1787
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:05,400
» Lee?
>> Aye.

1788
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:06,640
» Chapman?
>> Aye.

1789
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:08,720
» Seibert?
>> Aye.

1790
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,960
» Uh Wagner?
>> Aye.

1791
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:16,800
» Okay, so motion has carried to approve
the

1792
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:21,960
wage scale.
And then we're to number four to adjourn

1793
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:25,000
the meeting. Is there a motion?
So, Chapman?

1794
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:27,560
» Second.
>> Who was the second?

1795
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:32,360
Okay.
Seibert?

1796
01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:32,360
Okay, roll call vote.

1797
01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:35,160
Uh Chapman?
>> Aye.

1798
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:36,160
» Seibert?
>> Aye.

1799
01:58:35,520 --> 01:58:37,080
» Justin?
>> Aye.

1800
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:39,400
» Lee?
>> Aye.

1801
01:58:37,520 --> 01:58:44,000
» Wagner?
Okay, this meeting is adjourned at 7:59.

1802
01:58:44,440 --> 01:58:46,920
Roll call vote.