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It

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One minute of warning. Have a great meeting.

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Hm. There's a little mirror right here.

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Uh, welcome to the October 12, 2026 council work session. I'm Council President Waterman

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filling in, um, presiding over the meeting though Mayor Hunter is online. Can I have

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a roll call, please? Councilor Nunnley. Councilor Walker here. Councilor

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Gabriel, Councilor Blank here. Councilor Dowd here. Councilor Lefridge. Councilor

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Fisher. Council President Waterman here and Mayor Hunter here.

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Oh, today we have one item on our um work session and that is to discuss traffic

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calming, um, and our traffic calming policies. I would like to invite the staff to

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give a presentation.

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Thank you. Good evening, Council President, Mayor, and council members. We are excited

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to kick off the discussion on the development of a traffic calming policy for the

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city of Kalispell. Traffic calming is a very important part of building safety and

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a livable community, and we recognize that concerns about speeding, pedestrian safety,

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and neighborhood traffic are an important part to our community and residents that

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live within our community. Currently, the city of Kalispell does not have an adopted

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traffic calming policy. While staff still routinely receives and evaluates traffic-related

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requests, we need a consistent framework that establishes some clear guidelines,

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prioritize, prioritization of certain projects, funding, and implementation of those

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traffic calming measures. An important part of this discussion is recognizing that

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not every traffic concern or request will result in a physical improvement. The policy

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needs to establish reasonable expectations, provide objective criteria for making

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those decisions, and ensuring that our limited resources are directed towards projects

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that provide the greatest benefit to the community. Tonight, we bring forward a working

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draft of the policy, um, as a starting point for discussion. We're looking for council's

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initial direction on policy framework, uh, particularly project eligibility, uh,

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prioritization, and funding. We'll talk about funding quite a bit cause that's one

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of the things we really need direction on tonight. And, and in future work sessions.

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Uh, from there, we, um, we envision refining the policy through additional council

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discussion, stakeholder involvement before bringing it forward for some official

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adoption. Ultimately, our goal is to develop a very practical, uh, transparent policy

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that staff can consistently implement, uh, with the support of both city council

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and the community. So with that, I'm gonna turn it over to our Deputy Public Works

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Director, Keith Haskins to walk through the draft policy that was provided to council.

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We're gonna do an in-depth look at the policy. Um, and what is, uh, the development

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of the process. Again, seeking quite a bit of council direction, and we're hoping

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it's a pretty interactive council meeting. Um, so feel free to question us during

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the slides and, and ask questions, uh, during the presentation. So with that, I'm

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gonna turn it over to Keith and I guess buckle up. It's, it's gonna be a, a long

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presentation tonight. All right, not too bad. Thank you, I guess we've done longer

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maybe.

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Thank you and good evening, Mr. President, Mr. Mayor and council. We have 3 main

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topics tonight. First, we'll walk through the working draft of the traffic calming

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policy. Second, I need your initial direction on the framework of the policy and

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on funding. There are 6 open questions which are policy choices and we'll get to

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those uh near the end of the presentation. Funding is one of the most important discussion

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points, as Suzie said, because it affects how the process is completed. Third, I

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want to confirm the process from here. Suzy mentioned, we're proposing a deliberate

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sequence with the kickoff tonight, a 2nd work session to refine the framework based

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on the discussions that we have here, a stakeholder review with residents um and

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developers and our own emergency responders, and then a 3rd work session with recommendations

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from that stakeholder group and um city staff and then public notice and adoption

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for council. So, that's the, the hopeful process. The outcome we're hoping for tonight

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is initial direction, not final answers. If we leave here with a sense of where council

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wants to go on funding and framework, staff can do the refinement work. So here's

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just to just to start that off, you want this to be a little bit conversational.

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So if we have questions in the middle of the presentation, interrupt, please do just.

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Because there's 3 of us who have not been on previous prior councils. So could we

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get a little history of where we got to doing where we are here as well? I'm sure

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that's in your overview, but, uh, yeah, and actually we had it in the overview, but

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I took it back out. But yeah, I'm happy to, um, in fact, so 2016 about, um,

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we had, uh, uh. A known traffic calming issue that came up with East Oregon. So we,

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we brought that to council, we went through the data with council and we had um some

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recommendations for council and as a, a result of that, um we had a second

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meeting with council and I can't remember the date of that meeting but um With that,

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we went through a preliminary traffic calming policy that staff kind of developed

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a very uh rough outline for and talked through some of um what we were suggesting

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as a policy to move forward. We got stuck in council really with the funding question.

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Um, and, and the issue that came up was really what is fair, um, because we didn't,

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we don't have a funding mechanism for traffic calming. And so the staff recommendation

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at the time was to do a special improvement district and that puts the funding on

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to the residents that are the nearest the traffic calming item. And so that kind

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of became a lot of back and forth of is that really fair to those residents or is

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it a benefit to the entire city and should we be looking at other funding mechanisms.

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And as a result of that, um, I think the direction that we had was to look at other,

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uh, municipalities and see how they're funding it. And then this has been kicked

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down the road since then. So that's, that's where we're, that was back in 2022 when

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that was. And then essentially everybody's world was shaken up a little bit with

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COVID and ARPA funding, and I think we just Uh, we didn't have the resources to come

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back with, um, more information on it. We just prioritized other things above traffic

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calming, and then we, the last six months, we've kind of taken a deeper dive into

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it and brought back this policy in front of council tonight. I just wanted to open

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that up as just a little bit of a historic that this has been a conversation, but

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again, the reason we're looking at a policy is that we're moving forward. But part

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of it is that when we have one-off requests for like First Avenue East or something

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like that, we really, the staff Doesn't have any guidance and having a larger policy

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gives us some framework for staff to be able to look at requests and this is and

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we'll go through some examples tonight, you know, um, kind of how we would apply

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what we propose and trying to get feedback on some of that too. So I just wanted

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to take a pause there just to one encourage counsel that questions are welcome in

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this and just sort of give a little. A bit of the history of where we've been before

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and why we're looking at putting some policy into this so that we have some guidance

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in case we have those future requests. And additionally, this is kind of one of those

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actionable items within our land use plan, so we have our kind of overriding master

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plan, land use plan. So this is talked about quite a bit throughout that document,

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the Main Street Safety Action Plan, although it focused on Main Street, did, you

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know, kind of identify a number of safety measures that could be incorporated into

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city projects, so, And just as growth has happened, it's Not been an issue that's

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gone away. It continues to come to the forefront, um, quite regularly, so yeah, and,

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and our list has definitely gotten longer with requests as, uh, population increased

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and traffic has increased, um, so, well, thank you, Keith for that, and then I just

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want to let everybody know that that's a question, Ms. Blank, if you have anything,

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anybody's welcome to participate into those questions. Yeah, go ahead. Would it be

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possible, I didn't see it in the report, so I'm sorry if I missed it just to know

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where those requests have come from, just to see a, a heat map of what, what's going

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on. Um, I, we might be able to do that. I, I don't know if we have that, but it would

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take a little bit of time for us to do it, but we're, we're gonna go through some

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examples. Yeah, OK. It'd just be helpful for me to see what parts of the city, you

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can imagine every part of the city, OK, OK, yeah, I, I, I don't think that there's

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not an area as we would sit and tick through all of the, uh, requests that we've

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kind of reviewed that you can imagine every part of the city. We could think of almost

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every part of the city. Uh, downtown new subdivisions, um, subdivisions that were

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developed in the 2000, so almost every area of the city, OK, thank you, and we'll

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have, uh, we'll, we'll show some, we, we developed a rubric, so we'll show some scores

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as we kind of put those side by side and how they lay out. Yeah, I saw that. I was

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just thinking in terms of where the If in terms of funding, right, who, who's, yeah,

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it just came to my mind, yeah, and that's, that's a good point because one of the

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funding mechanisms that is important. Go ahead. Oh, over the past 6 years at least,

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uh, the most requests have come from Oregon 7th West.

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Um, 4 Mile and Main Street.

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Yeah, kids sports, sports, yep, yep, yeah. Ah, Main Street and then also um First

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East. And then I would also add in, yeah, you could add in roads crossing. We've

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seen, we've seen other conversations come up. I do agree with the assessment. It

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comes from just about everywhere, which is why a guiding policy needed to be set

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up. So no problem. No, you're, you're fine. It's, it's a great question. Yep, yep.

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Yeah, I really like the format of work sessions for this reason. We have more back

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and forth. That's great. Um, so here's the, the shape of the document we have, um,

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the 1st 4 chapters are very short. Um, they define traffic calming. They provide

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a vision for the policy. They explain why Calpo needs a policy, and then they state

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the policy goals. Chapter 5 is the peer review, what other cities do with particular

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attention to the 4 Montana communities that we looked at. Chapter 6 provides the

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toolbox, which is the menu of physical measures and where each one is appropriate.

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Chapter 7 is geared toward traffic calming requirements for new development. Um,

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this chapter allows proactive installations of traffic calming that's new to this.

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Chapter 8 is funding. Which we'll spend a lot of time on. Chapter 9 is the procedure

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requester goes through for a traffic calming installation on an existing street.

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Chapter 10 covers construction and who maintains the device afterwards. And then

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we have 4 appendices, a flow chart of the procedure, an example ordinance for the

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street maintenance district as a funding mechanism, the recommended amendments to

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our standards, and the scoring rubric we'd use to rank the requests.

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So, why do we need a policy in the first place? Kalispell had an estimated 31,851

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residents as of July of last year. That's 27% growth since the 2020 census, which

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makes us one of the fastest growing micropolitan areas in the country. Growth does

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a specific thing to a street network. As the arterials fill up, drivers start looking

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for ways around them. And residential streets can become convenient cut-throughs.

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Speeds go up, volumes go up, and our phones start ringing. We complete traffic reviews

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as our workloads allow and unfortunately, we get more speed complaints than we can

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study. That's not a staffing complaint, it's a structural issue and honestly, one

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of the biggest issues is even when we see a need for traffic calming, we lack the

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funding mechanism to move forward. By having a traffic calming policy in place, we

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hope to be able to fairly prioritize projects, have a process in place for what traffic

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calming technique is used, understand how an installation is paid for, and know that

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we have the backing of council as we move forward.

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Since 2020, Public Works has logged 141 traffic related requests with 112 involving

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speed management, stop signs, intersection controls, and traffic calming. These numbers

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don't include requests handled directly by the police department or concerns that

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weren't formally logged, so the actual number is likely higher. And so and often

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we have follow-ups um with each one of those. This demonstrates the ongoing demand

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on staff to evaluate and respond to traffic concerns throughout the community and

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reinforces why we need a consistent policy to guide how requests are evaluated, prioritized

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and addressed.

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The definition we use for traffic calming is the Institute of Transportation Engineers

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definition, and probably the most important word in it is physical. Traffic calming

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is not normally signs or paint. Those are traffic control and those aren't usually

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lacking. Where a sign asks a driver to slow down, a curb extension or a speed table

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requires it. That distinction runs through the whole policy. In fact, for existing

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streets, the policy requires that standard traffic control has already been in place

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for at least a year before we consider traffic calming. Second, calming is not a

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substitute for enforcement. What it does that enforcement can't do is work continuously.

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The traffic calming measure is as effective at 8:00 a.m. when school traffic is highest

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as it is at 2:00 a.m. when a driver might think they're free to run as they will.

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Third, the cold weather climate is a constraint. Everything installed permanently

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on our list needs to be able to survive winter. It must be easily locatable by drivers

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as well as snowplow operators under the snow, and it can't be something that prevents

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our operators from performing required operations and maintenance. The photo on the

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right is a chicane, which is one of the horizontal deflection measures in our toolbox.

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Before I get into the toolbox and the procedure, I want to put the, the vision in

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front of you, which is safe streets for all Kalispell residents and guests. The vision

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is the aspiration. We've anchored this into Montana's Vision Zero, which is the Department

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of Transportation's goal of 0 deaths and 0 serious injuries on Montana roadways.

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That isn't just borrowed language. The comprehensive highway safety plan is the document

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federal safety funding is organized around, so a local policy that aligns with it

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is on a strong, is a stronger grant application than one that isn't. The middle system

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or sentence, I'm sorry, is the argument for the entire document. Speed decides more

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than whether a crash is survivable. It decides what a street is. Below about 25 miles

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an hour, a roadway is a neighborhood street. Above that, it becomes a thoroughfare,

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and everything else about the street is incidental to moving cars through it. Kalispell

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will build toward a transportation system that is safe, livable, and connected for

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all users. Hey Keith, yeah, just wanna comment on that. I appreciate, um, that reference

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to Vision Zero, in there, um, you know, that is, uh, nationwide, a lot of communities

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are adopting this Vision Zero, and I'm glad to see that Montana has it, um, and I'm

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glad that we're kind of anchoring this policy on that as well, and I just wanna flag

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it as Um, local municipalities can adopt Vision Zero, policy as well. And I know

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that kind of referencing that in this document is complimentary with that. Um, but

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I would just, uh, you know, flag that it'd be something that'd be good to maybe adopt

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a resolution or, or policy on Vision Zero as well in the future at some point. OK,

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thank you for that.

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All right. So there are 8 goals in the document. First, we want clarity for the public.

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Residents should be able to read the policy and know what will happen to their request

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and why. Second, we want the right measure in the right place. A device that works

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on a local street may be entirely wrong on a collector. The toolbox will say so.

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Third, we don't want to shift the problem. This one matters. If we calm one street

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and the traffic simply moves to the next street over, we haven't solved anything

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and we've just relocated it. The policy requires us to evaluate diversion.

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Fourth, maintaining a level of service, the network still has to work, including

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for emergency emergency responders and for our own snowplows and sweeper operations.

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Fifth, uh, we want standards-based design. Everything we install has to conform to

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the MUTCD, our own standards, and the Move 2040 transportation plan. 6, we want to

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be able to prioritize installations. There needs to be an objective system in place

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as issues arise so that projects can be appropriately reviewed and prioritized for

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implementation.

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7, this one, we've heard from council, develop standards for traffic calming implementation

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and new development. Rather than only addressing concerns retroactively, we need

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to be able to determine where traffic calming should be considered in new developments.

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This will require updates to the standards for design construction. And finally,

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and maybe the most obvious goal, reduce speeds. The overall goal for this policy

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should be to reduce speeds to posted speed limits which enhance the livability and

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community feel along our city's traffic corridors.

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For the peer review, we looked at two different groups of cities. The first group

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was a national selection of 3 cities. We had Howard County, Maryland, DeSoto, Texas,

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and Minneapolis, Minnesota. These cities are mainly useful for the broad strokes

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of the program structure. Minneapolis in particular has had to manage a backlog,

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which we will too. DeSoto funds installation directly out of its annual budget. Howard

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County uses community open houses. However, each of the reviewed national peer programs

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operate under enabling legislation and revenue authority that Montana cities don't

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have. So, we looked at 4 Montana cities which also have traffic calming programs

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because we all draw our authority from the same place, Montana Code. What's useful

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about these four cities is that they bracket our whole range. Missoula is at one

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end, fully city funded, Billings at the other, entirely SID funded. No dedicated

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city funding source at all. Bozeman is somewhere in between and Belgrade is at roughly

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the same stage of policy development we are.

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Quickly through the four Montana programs, Missoula funds installations out of city

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money, 50,000 in fiscal year 2026, which works out to about 63 cents per resident.

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What's distinctive is who screens requests. A standing interdepartmental team drawn

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from planning, engineering, street maintenance, fire, police, and communications,

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not one department deciding. Bozeman is citizen-initiated but city funded and city

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administered. 30,000 funding 7 projects this year chosen out of 20 applications which

239
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work out to about 50 cents per resident. They published a 100 point scoring scale

240
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and their installations are seasonal. Devices go in in the spring and they come out

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by late late October before the snow. Belgrade is where we are building their program.

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Their toolbox has 18 treatments and each one carries a winter maintenance note, and

243
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we borrowed that idea. Billings differentiates itself by having no dedicated funding.

244
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Everything runs through a special improvement district. Projects move forward based

245
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on local support and SID funding.

246
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So 5 conclusions that we took from this. One, every Montana program puts administration

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with city staff and most fund the less costly treatments of the toolbox with city

248
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money. For the most part, SIDs get reserved for the expensive permanent construction.

249
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Billings is the exception and only uses SID for traffic calming. 2, Bozeman requires

250
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quick build pilot projects prior to permanent installation. This is a bit of a mixed

251
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bag. On the one hand, it offers a potential benefit of proving a measure can work

252
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before investing money in a permanent solution. On the other hand, the pilot program

253
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has a higher final cost due to the pilot installation. It requires staff time to

254
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install, maintain and remove and requires staff time to contrast data before and

255
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after the pilot project, which then delays the installation of a more refined permanent

256
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solution. 3, Belgrade's practice of noting winter maintenance, which we mentioned

257
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already. 4, Missoula and Bozeman both moved from staff judgment to a scoring rubric,

258
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so did we, and that's Appendix D. And 5, on new development, there's no consistent

259
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standard anywhere. Requirements range from mandatory to absent, absent, and that

260
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gave us room to make a deliberate choice, which is our chapter 7.

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Now to the toolbox which is found in chapter 6. This is the menu. 16 measures organized

262
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into 5 categories. The 1st 4 are physical measures drawn from the Move 2040 transportation

263
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plan. The fifth is a driver feedback and perceptual measures which this policy adds.

264
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So the four physical categories we have horizontal deflection, which keeps a driver

265
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from going in a straight line. This group includes chicanes, realigned intersections,

266
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and traffic circles. Vertical deflection changes the height of the roadway so that

267
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the speed becomes physically uncomfortable for the driver. This includes speed humps,

268
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speed tables, raised crosswalks, and we're adding in raised intersections. The raised

269
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intersection is in addition to the toolbox we presented in 2022. It's appropriate

270
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in a pedestrian priority setting such as a downtown block face or a school frontage,

271
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but it's also one of the most expensive devices on the list and can interrupt drainage

272
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on all four approaches, so it cannot be installed in all situations. Street width

273
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reduction narrows the driving space. This includes curb extensions, median islands,

274
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and road diets. These, when paired with crossings, can shorten the pedestrian crossing.

275
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Routing restrictions is the heavy end. This includes diverters, closures, median

276
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barriers. These reduce volume rather than speed and they're the measures most likely

277
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to move a problem into a neighboring street, so the policy treats them very cautiously.

278
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And then a 5th category, driver feedback and perceptual measures. These are not traffic

279
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calming under the chapter 1 definition because they work on driver attention rather

280
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than geometry, but they are often the most practical first response and some of them

281
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can even collect speed data so we can measure their effectiveness as they're installed.

282
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One thing on that, uh, Keith, I, I didn't notice, um, on the, on the feedback, perceptual

283
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measures, uh, reference to rapidly flashy beacons, and I know we've used that in

284
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a number of cases. Um, Might be just a point of inclusion of referencing it in that

285
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section. Yeah, and that's, I think mainly because it's more of a pedestrian, um,

286
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traffic control device rather than a, a speed control device. Yeah, but it's, uh,

287
00:26:05,032 --> 00:26:09,099
I mean, the, the safety of the pedestrian and, and, and that for the vehicle. So

288
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if a vehicle is approaching, you know, a crossing, um, traffic calming of saying,

289
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hey, slow down, you have, uh, pedestrians crossing here with a flashing beacon, I

290
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would think would be appropriate. Yeah, I think, I think in a lot of cases, it probably

291
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would be, um, but it's specifically just a pedestrian, uh, device. But yeah, it's,

292
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that's something that we can note.

293
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Sorry, taking a note.

294
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All right, so this table is part of the toolbox staff will use to review the appropriateness

295
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of a measure. It rates every measure against arterials, collectors, and local streets

296
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on a 1 to 3 scale. So, uh, a 1 being least appropriate, 3 being

297
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most appropriate. And you can see the pattern immediately. Almost everything is appropriate

298
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on a local street. Very little is appropriate on an arterial. And what is appropriate

299
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there is the width reduction family like curb extensions and median nylons because

300
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those don't require a driver to slow abruptly. The scale is guidance, not a prohibition.

301
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If there's a compelling reason to use a two-rated measure, staff can and they can

302
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document why. But the default is on the page, it's published and the same for every

303
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neighborhood.

304
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So chapter 7, this is the, the new chapter which takes a proactive approach to traffic

305
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calming rather than a reactive approach. We added this chapter based on some of the

306
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feedback we received from the previous presentations to council on traffic calming.

307
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And here's what we found when we went looking. Our standards for design construction

308
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last updated and adopted in June of 2022 say in plain language that traffic calming

309
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devices may not be installed in new developments. However, our subdivision regulations,

310
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which council amended in May of this year by ordinance 91951, say that traffic calming

311
00:28:15,084 --> 00:28:19,091
techniques shall be incorporated into subdivisions when they're necessary for pedestrian

312
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safety. So, we have a conflict and section 9.1.1 of the standards tells us how to

313
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resolve it. Conflicts get resolved in favor of the standards, which means the operative

314
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rule today is the prohibition and the subdivision requirement you adopted in May

315
00:28:35,043 --> 00:28:40,008
has no effect on new development. I don't believe this is anything that anyone attended.

316
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Um, the subdivision regulations were amended 4 years after the standards were last

317
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touched, and the two documents simply drifted apart. But it does mean that right

318
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now, if a developer platted a subdivision with a half mile of straight local street,

319
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we'd have no authority to require anything. And then in 5 years, the residents of

320
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that subdivision would be in this room asking us to fix the problem at public expense.

321
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So Appendix C of the policy is the fix and we'll come back to it.

322
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Yeah. Mhm. Just from a historical perspective, why we did that? So. It's a change

323
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in Uh

324
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It's a change in evaluation of risk is how I would put it, um. And when I did the,

325
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the previous uh draft, traffic calming policy, we went through a lot of examples

326
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of these different methods. And one thing that was really apparent when you're looking

327
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at any of these is that the curbs, the, the railing, the signs, they're all beat

328
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up because they get hit a lot on these traffic calming measures. And so, you are

329
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creating a risk by putting something in the road. And it creates a little bit of

330
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a mixed bag from a risk perspective when you sign this road for 25 miles an hour,

331
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but you have to drive it at 20. And so, um, On the flip side of that coin is the,

332
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the safety for the residents, the pedestrians, the other users of the roadway, and

333
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so this is just an attempt to balance that out. But that's why the standards were

334
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the way that they were.

335
00:30:22,088 --> 00:30:26,009
So if you're saying May of this year, that must have been snuck in the Malupa stuff,

336
00:30:26,099 --> 00:30:32,086
right? Yeah, so I, I didn't notice that. So with that there wasn't really a lot of

337
00:30:32,086 --> 00:30:37,005
change language to that, but yeah, it was, it went along with it. What, what was

338
00:30:37,005 --> 00:30:42,086
it prior to May? Did it say shall be in the subdivision regulation or did it just

339
00:30:42,086 --> 00:30:49,044
not mention it at all? I believe it was in there before May as well. OK. Planners

340
00:30:49,044 --> 00:30:55,048
versus engineers is what Keith meant to say. Here, I, I, I got you on that.

341
00:30:57,042 --> 00:31:00,033
All right, go ahead. We're gonna come back to this, I'm sure.

342
00:31:03,045 --> 00:31:08,064
So, how do we add traffic calming and new development and um you know, this isn't

343
00:31:08,064 --> 00:31:13,096
part of the notes, but what, where we, where we found a good uh traffic calming policy

344
00:31:13,096 --> 00:31:18,068
for new development was out of Flagstaff, Arizona. Um, so we've, we've kind of tried

345
00:31:18,068 --> 00:31:25,000
to Mimic a lot of that here. After we talk through this slide and the next slide,

346
00:31:25,006 --> 00:31:28,068
we'll have some examples to look at to show you how this would have been applied

347
00:31:28,068 --> 00:31:32,008
on recently completed streets if we have already had this provision in place.

348
00:31:34,009 --> 00:31:38,048
The number we picked is 500 ft. That's the maximum distance between speed control

349
00:31:38,048 --> 00:31:42,024
points on a new street. We picked 500 because that's the figure Billings adopted

350
00:31:42,024 --> 00:31:47,004
last year, so we're aligned with another adopted practice in Montana. And the number

351
00:31:47,004 --> 00:31:51,096
is the easy part. The definition is where the work happens. A speed control point

352
00:31:51,096 --> 00:31:56,091
is a place where the design actually makes the driver slow down, a genuine stop condition

353
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or a curve tight enough to force it. 300 ft radius, 30 degree delta. Only if the

354
00:32:03,008 --> 00:32:07,066
designer can show that geometry can't do this, will we require a physical device.

355
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And here's the key point, a stop sign between two local streets does not count. That's

356
00:32:12,097 --> 00:32:17,007
deliberate. Studies show that unwarranted stop signs have a low compliance rate.

357
00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:20,076
We should not install unwarranted stop signs because that doesn't comply with the

358
00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:25,072
MUTCD. When stop signs are ignored, it can create conflicts with pedestrians who

359
00:32:25,072 --> 00:32:30,056
step out into traffic expecting traffic to stop. Additionally, the MUTCD prohibits

360
00:32:30,056 --> 00:32:34,095
stop sign use as a speed control. If stop signs were approved for speed control,

361
00:32:35,013 --> 00:32:38,096
that would be the cheapest solution for a developer to use, and we would end up with

362
00:32:38,096 --> 00:32:42,084
unwarranted stop signs to meet the traffic calming requirements. Again, this gets

363
00:32:42,084 --> 00:32:46,024
back to installing physical measures that require compliance rather than signage

364
00:32:46,024 --> 00:32:53,007
that asks for compliance. Our block length cap is already 600 ft. So if we only measured

365
00:32:53,007 --> 00:32:57,007
between intersections, this rule would do nothing. Because we exclude stop signs,

366
00:32:57,075 --> 00:33:02,082
a street running straight through 3 blocks gives you 1800 ft of uninterrupted run.

367
00:33:03,061 --> 00:33:07,003
That's the street that comes back to us as a complaint, and that's the street this

368
00:33:07,003 --> 00:33:07,008
rule catches.

369
00:33:11,077 --> 00:33:16,022
The spacing rule handles long straight streets, but some places need calming regardless

370
00:33:16,022 --> 00:33:20,027
of how long the street is. Which is why we have this section, which is, was not in

371
00:33:20,027 --> 00:33:26,006
that Flagstaff, Arizona. This is something that Suzie and I have ground out. So a

372
00:33:26,006 --> 00:33:31,006
pedestrian generator is a park of a half acre or more, a school or school walk route,

373
00:33:31,069 --> 00:33:37,008
a trail crossing, a transit stop, or a postal cluster box serving 6 or more homes.

374
00:33:37,088 --> 00:33:42,003
In new subdivisions, the postal service doesn't deliver to the door. Instead, you

375
00:33:42,003 --> 00:33:46,011
get a cluster box and every household in that block walks or drives to it. It creates

376
00:33:46,011 --> 00:33:50,058
a concentrated pedestrian crossing, usually mid-block to keep congestion from intersections,

377
00:33:50,008 --> 00:33:55,079
plus cars stopping and standing. It's a genuine generator and nobody designs for

378
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:59,047
it. So we've required that if it serves both sides of the street, there's a real

379
00:33:59,047 --> 00:34:04,007
crossing. Near any pedestrian generator, the spacing tightens to 300 ft, and at least

380
00:34:04,007 --> 00:34:09,029
one feature has to be within 100 ft of the crossing itself. That second requirement

381
00:34:09,029 --> 00:34:13,007
matters. Without it, a developer could satisfy the rule with a curve 300 ft away

382
00:34:13,007 --> 00:34:18,032
from where pedestrians actually cross. And one technical note, we reduce the target

383
00:34:18,032 --> 00:34:23,008
operating speed to 20 MPH, but we keep the design speed at 25 miles an hour. If we

384
00:34:23,008 --> 00:34:27,008
drop the design speed, we'd be reducing the site distance we require to a pedestrian

385
00:34:27,008 --> 00:34:32,008
generator. That's backwards. We want long stopping site distances where pedestrians

386
00:34:32,008 --> 00:34:39,000
are active. Hey, Keith, on this one. just a question. I, I like the idea of this

387
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,003
pedestrian generator. I think that's creative. Um, so I appreciate that inclusion.

388
00:34:44,026 --> 00:34:49,092
But just thinking about, and, and, you know, I, I'm not sure if this is, uh, in line

389
00:34:49,092 --> 00:34:54,006
with kind of the intent of the pedestrian generator. But if I think about, uh, what

390
00:34:54,006 --> 00:35:00,024
is a pedestrian generator, what, you know, what uh draws pedestrians, you certainly

391
00:35:00,024 --> 00:35:07,006
cover it with a lot of those, um, Uh, items on there. But I was thinking also of

392
00:35:07,006 --> 00:35:11,057
a commercial, a walkable commercial district like our main street. You know, if we

393
00:35:11,057 --> 00:35:16,014
have a new development, they have kind of like a, a block or a few blocks that has

394
00:35:16,014 --> 00:35:21,049
a lot of shops, um, ground floor retail, that's very walkable like our main street,

395
00:35:21,062 --> 00:35:26,045
that's gonna become a, a pedestrian zone as well. And I'm wondering if we, if there's

396
00:35:26,045 --> 00:35:31,085
any value in adding that as an identified pedestrian generator.

397
00:35:33,089 --> 00:35:38,004
Yeah, it's a, it's a good thought. Um, one thing I always struggle with and maybe

398
00:35:38,004 --> 00:35:43,043
we can, maybe we can, uh, mull this over a bit and come up with something is, uh,

399
00:35:44,004 --> 00:35:47,092
especially with new development, you never know what the use is going to be until

400
00:35:47,092 --> 00:35:52,093
it builds and so it's more of a something that might come forward during a Maybe

401
00:35:52,093 --> 00:35:58,073
a site review process rather than um a subdivision process but it's yeah so sometimes

402
00:35:58,075 --> 00:36:02,073
they're like tenant improvements and we just don't quite know what's gonna be occupying

403
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:08,062
that tenant improvement commercial space until later on or or a zoning that allows

404
00:36:08,062 --> 00:36:14,053
different uses, you know, if it's a residential versus a commercial use, it's just

405
00:36:14,055 --> 00:36:20,001
really hard to define a lot of times during the subdivision stage but Yeah, we'll,

406
00:36:20,047 --> 00:36:25,095
we'll take that comment and I can see where, I mean, we look up at Church Road and

407
00:36:25,095 --> 00:36:31,042
how that subdivision has finished off. They put a gym and they're putting those activities

408
00:36:31,042 --> 00:36:37,074
in one in that commercial cluster, and that is the gym, the playground area and stuff

409
00:36:37,074 --> 00:36:43,059
like that is creating a. Yeah, through some of the PDs we're a little more certain,

410
00:36:44,002 --> 00:36:50,031
so it might be possible in some of the PDs, but I wonder if, uh, you know, I don't

411
00:36:50,031 --> 00:36:55,036
know kind of the staging of the process, if it's too late and kind of that site review

412
00:36:55,007 --> 00:37:02,005
time to, you know, uh, come in and put in some of these um requirements. But

413
00:37:03,015 --> 00:37:10,078
Like just even a placeholder of or other um identified pedestrian generators as identified

414
00:37:10,078 --> 00:37:14,009
through the review process or something like that, you know, that could be uh allow

415
00:37:14,009 --> 00:37:20,036
for a little bit of uh discretion and leeway through the process. Yeah, that's a,

416
00:37:20,043 --> 00:37:21,027
that's a really good thought.

417
00:37:23,053 --> 00:37:24,008
Is there anybody else on that?

418
00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:33,097
All right, so this is, this is where it gets fun. Um, so now to look at an example.

419
00:37:34,083 --> 00:37:38,007
So this is Eagle Valley Ranch. We just wanted to pull something that's some somewhat

420
00:37:38,007 --> 00:37:44,068
recent, um, new, new development. The first few phases have already been completed

421
00:37:44,068 --> 00:37:48,064
and the last phases are currently under construction out here. I used our aerial

422
00:37:48,064 --> 00:37:53,057
mapping to measure some distances between speed control points for discussion. So

423
00:37:53,075 --> 00:37:59,058
the middle two streets are just under 500 ft. The northern middle street has a T

424
00:37:59,058 --> 00:38:04,041
intersection with the collector and a short radius curve on the west and a T intersection

425
00:38:04,041 --> 00:38:09,053
on the east. The total distance is below 500 ft and would not require a speed control

426
00:38:09,053 --> 00:38:13,041
point. Likewise, the southern middle street has a T intersection on both ends and

427
00:38:13,041 --> 00:38:17,049
has a total distance less than 500 ft. No speed control point would be required.

428
00:38:19,015 --> 00:38:23,051
The north-south street on the east end of the development has a length over 760 ft.

429
00:38:24,048 --> 00:38:28,023
Although it passes through two intersections, it's a through street rather than the

430
00:38:28,023 --> 00:38:31,083
branch, so those intersections do not count as speed control points.

431
00:38:35,053 --> 00:38:41,036
So if this was still in the design phase, what options could have been used to provide

432
00:38:41,036 --> 00:38:46,009
the speed control points on the stretch? Well, it could have been curveball routes

433
00:38:46,009 --> 00:38:50,045
at the intersection to narrow the roadway such as I drew in. This might get a little

434
00:38:50,045 --> 00:38:56,067
messy with the driveways that are in place at that site now. Another option could

435
00:38:56,067 --> 00:39:01,007
have been to install a couple of raised crosswalks that could have fit between driveways

436
00:39:01,007 --> 00:39:04,067
and provided a vertical deflection traffic calming element that would have split

437
00:39:04,067 --> 00:39:07,063
the roadway into acceptable links between speed control points.

438
00:39:12,078 --> 00:39:17,029
What about the road to the south? Although there may not be much of an issue today

439
00:39:17,029 --> 00:39:21,032
when the road is extended further east in the future. A long tangent length will

440
00:39:21,032 --> 00:39:26,052
have been created that may encourage higher driving speeds. Maybe a speed table in

441
00:39:26,052 --> 00:39:30,098
the center of the block would have been a good choice. Alternatively, a mid-block

442
00:39:31,005 --> 00:39:36,008
curveball choker configuration could have been completed or, you know, could have

443
00:39:36,008 --> 00:39:37,057
been a median island as well.

444
00:39:42,038 --> 00:39:48,039
When we zoom out again. At Jefferson, which is the north-south road, which runs up

445
00:39:48,041 --> 00:39:53,002
from Calmerna Town Center and into and through Eagle Valley Ranch, we see a very

446
00:39:53,002 --> 00:39:56,059
long stretch of roadway that is more than a quarter of a mile between intersections.

447
00:40:00,083 --> 00:40:04,083
Additionally, once you get into Eagle Valley Ranch, there's a pedestrian generator.

448
00:40:05,062 --> 00:40:10,086
In the form of a mailbox cluster. Again, if our draft policy was adopted and this

449
00:40:10,086 --> 00:40:14,005
was a new review, then the design would need to include a speed control point within

450
00:40:14,005 --> 00:40:19,094
100 ft of the pedestrian generator. Maybe that could be a raised crosswalk that would

451
00:40:19,094 --> 00:40:25,039
connect the neighborhood to the mailbox. This is one area that we already currently

452
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:29,007
get a lot of complaints about speeding. There would also need to be something done

453
00:40:29,007 --> 00:40:35,036
to split the 1500 ft into smaller sections, smaller than 500 ft with speed controls.

454
00:40:35,009 --> 00:40:41,005
Maybe another raised crosswalk or bulb out at the intersection at the left to the

455
00:40:41,005 --> 00:40:46,043
north. And maybe speed tables to split up the remaining portion of the straight tangent

456
00:40:46,043 --> 00:40:52,019
for the areas to the south shown on the right. Just How it could work, I guess that's

457
00:40:52,019 --> 00:40:52,094
what I'm trying to show.

458
00:40:55,062 --> 00:40:59,056
And here's another recent subdivision in another part of the city. This is South

459
00:40:59,056 --> 00:41:04,003
Side of states. There are some speed control points at intersections of local streets

460
00:41:04,003 --> 00:41:08,061
with collectors streets as shown at the intersection of Pintail Drive with Morganzer

461
00:41:08,061 --> 00:41:13,092
Drive, and at the intersection of Destiny Lane with Airport Road. Additionally, there

462
00:41:13,092 --> 00:41:17,096
are some curves that have more than 30 degrees change in direction with radii less

463
00:41:17,096 --> 00:41:23,036
than 300 ft. These would all be counted as qualifying speed control points. On the

464
00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:27,032
other hand, the long straight portion of Destiny Lane would need some sort of speed

465
00:41:27,032 --> 00:41:34,035
control added in to break up the 1500 ft into sections shorter than 500. And maybe

466
00:41:34,035 --> 00:41:39,042
this could be accomplished by choker bulbouts or speed tables in the area shown in

467
00:41:39,006 --> 00:41:43,007
orange. Where did they go? One more time. There you go.

468
00:41:45,072 --> 00:41:47,094
Got, got ahead of myself.

469
00:41:55,028 --> 00:42:01,059
So, 6 traffic calming features are what we are looking at to approve for new streets.

470
00:42:02,059 --> 00:42:06,018
This isn't the entire toolbox because we want items that are on the easier side of

471
00:42:06,018 --> 00:42:10,061
the spectrum for our streets and TSS staff to maintain and we'll work with current

472
00:42:10,061 --> 00:42:15,074
city designs um elements. Every one of these will need to be built to a city standard

473
00:42:15,074 --> 00:42:21,011
detail that will need to be created by engineering staff, vetted by emergency services.

474
00:42:21,048 --> 00:42:26,058
And added to an update of the standards. On emergency access, we kept the requirement

475
00:42:26,058 --> 00:42:31,077
narrow on purpose. We could require a sweat path analysis for several reference vehicles

476
00:42:32,014 --> 00:42:35,066
on every device, but that's expensive for the developer and it doesn't really tell

477
00:42:35,066 --> 00:42:39,066
us much. If the device matches the standard detail, we already know the apparatus

478
00:42:39,066 --> 00:42:44,003
fits. So the draft says build it to the detail and you're presumed compliant. The

479
00:42:44,003 --> 00:42:47,093
only exception is a traffic circle where the turning path is constrained not only

480
00:42:47,095 --> 00:42:52,003
by the circle, but by the geometries of the intersection. For traffic circles, we

481
00:42:52,003 --> 00:42:56,042
want a turning analysis for the model fire apparatus. That's the same turning movement

482
00:42:56,042 --> 00:43:02,065
question staff worked through on East Oregon in 2021. And winter Every raised feature,

483
00:43:02,078 --> 00:43:07,049
every curb extension, every island nose has to be marked so a plow operator and commuter

484
00:43:07,049 --> 00:43:12,058
knows where it is, even when buried in snow with plow friendly noses. Also, no vertical

485
00:43:12,058 --> 00:43:16,029
deflection devices would be allowed on grades over 6%.

486
00:43:19,095 --> 00:43:26,007
On the uh Go back the uh approved features for for new development um.

487
00:43:28,056 --> 00:43:34,075
I'm wondering, cause one of the things that I think is really valuable for um speed

488
00:43:34,075 --> 00:43:40,019
reduction is lane narrowing. And I know we have that kind of listed as a travel way

489
00:43:40,019 --> 00:43:47,043
delineation. Um, so, including that, but also just the idea of, um, you know,

490
00:43:47,056 --> 00:43:53,064
having adjusting our standards so we have narrower Uh, lane width. So I know the

491
00:43:53,064 --> 00:44:00,008
standard is 12-foot, uh, lane, but research, um, has shown that 10-foot lanes, 10,

492
00:44:00,085 --> 00:44:07,028
11-foot lanes are, uh, very effective in kind of slowing down traffic, uh, but still,

493
00:44:07,045 --> 00:44:14,052
you know, being functional. Um, so I'm just wondering if we could consider that as,

494
00:44:14,065 --> 00:44:20,081
uh, a feature too, uh, for if, uh, You know, coming in and say, hey, this is a local

495
00:44:20,081 --> 00:44:26,064
street, uh, we can have kind of a narrower uh width, or, or, and I know it's painted,

496
00:44:26,073 --> 00:44:31,048
so it's not a physical feature, but even just painted lines uh that narrow the the

497
00:44:31,048 --> 00:44:38,081
lane width. Yeah, I, I think that's something we can work through. Um, once we narrow

498
00:44:38,081 --> 00:44:45,007
the road, we also can remove parking. We also have, you know, uh, minimum standards

499
00:44:45,007 --> 00:44:52,022
for when and where parking can be, uh, included on our different street classifications.

500
00:44:52,051 --> 00:44:56,003
So that's something that we'd have to balance out, um, and especially with some of

501
00:44:56,003 --> 00:45:02,034
the new state law that, um, doesn't require off-street parking, um, that could be

502
00:45:02,034 --> 00:45:07,069
a That could be something that we need to to think about pretty uh pretty heavily.

503
00:45:08,097 --> 00:45:15,084
Yeah, and I know, I mean, we have the 12 ft width and, you know, parking lane. Um,

504
00:45:16,013 --> 00:45:20,076
so even if we kept the parking lane, it'd just be uh narrowing that allowed width

505
00:45:20,076 --> 00:45:25,061
of the Of the, and I know local streets, I guess we don't have any paint. We don't,

506
00:45:25,007 --> 00:45:30,011
yeah, yeah, so, so it would be hard. It would have to be physical with the curb,

507
00:45:30,066 --> 00:45:36,069
yeah, yeah. So I, I guess I'd, I'd look to that as part of our standards. I, I know

508
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:41,009
we've had that, um, we've had that discussion in the past, but, uh, there has been

509
00:45:41,009 --> 00:45:44,064
kind of more definitive research on that that's come out, so I'd be happy to share

510
00:45:44,064 --> 00:45:50,005
that, um, but just on the value of those narrower widths for you wouldn't mind sending

511
00:45:50,005 --> 00:45:54,042
that over, that'd be great. Yeah, and we could probably draw up some examples, no

512
00:45:54,042 --> 00:45:58,062
parking with no parking on there too if we narrowed some, so we could probably think

513
00:45:58,062 --> 00:46:03,086
that through a few examples and come back with something on that too. Yeah, I, I

514
00:46:03,086 --> 00:46:09,018
think what you're getting at mainly is the entire block length would have a narrower

515
00:46:09,018 --> 00:46:14,042
lane rather than just creating a choke point or a, a median, is that right? Exactly,

516
00:46:14,066 --> 00:46:15,053
yep, yep.

517
00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:21,087
All right. Anybody else have anything? OK.

518
00:46:24,024 --> 00:46:29,064
Appendix C is the operative language, the actual replacement text for the code sections,

519
00:46:29,076 --> 00:46:36,046
and there's 4 pieces. First section 9.1.4, delete the prohibition and put the spacing

520
00:46:36,046 --> 00:46:40,086
standard and the pedestrian generator rule in, and the performance test in its place.

521
00:46:42,004 --> 00:46:48,035
Second, section 9.1.17. Right now, our standards require that every traffic calming

522
00:46:48,035 --> 00:46:53,042
device be recommended by a study completed by a professional traffic operations engineer.

523
00:46:54,008 --> 00:46:57,057
Since we are setting up the minimum requirements, the standards will dictate where

524
00:46:57,057 --> 00:47:01,038
and how often traffic calming devices need to be installed, so that really doesn't

525
00:47:01,004 --> 00:47:06,065
need to be a PTOE. Third, matching amendments to the subdivision regulations, so

526
00:47:06,065 --> 00:47:11,013
the two documents say the same thing. And 4th, we'll need to develop new standard

527
00:47:11,013 --> 00:47:13,017
detail sheets for the design standards.

528
00:47:16,061 --> 00:47:20,008
All right. So, we're going to skip over funding for now and come back to it after

529
00:47:20,008 --> 00:47:24,071
this. Chapters 9 and 10 lay out the process for traffic calming on existing streets.

530
00:47:25,009 --> 00:47:29,088
This is the procedure. Appendix A of the policy is a flow chart of everything I'm

531
00:47:29,088 --> 00:47:34,004
about to describe, so if it gets hard to follow that chart is the picture version.

532
00:47:36,043 --> 00:47:43,067
OK. The proposed process is a gate, which is based on objective criteria. Not every

533
00:47:43,067 --> 00:47:48,043
complaint or concern can or should become a project. The first condition verifies

534
00:47:48,043 --> 00:47:53,011
we have all standard traffic control already in place, signs, striping, whatever

535
00:47:53,011 --> 00:47:57,039
is warranted, and it has to have been in place at least a full year without changing

536
00:47:57,039 --> 00:48:02,067
driver behavior. Now sometimes we'll get something that comes in, um, and we will

537
00:48:02,067 --> 00:48:07,058
do a site visit and realize That there's a sign missing, say from a higher speed

538
00:48:07,058 --> 00:48:12,053
low to a lower speed road and that happened just recently on um Spring Creek Drive.

539
00:48:13,021 --> 00:48:19,043
So, That that would be a scenario where we get a traffic speed complaint, we realize

540
00:48:19,043 --> 00:48:23,035
that we're missing something that should have been installed. We'll get that installed.

541
00:48:23,068 --> 00:48:28,035
And then if we continue to get um complaints, that's one that we'd monitor and make

542
00:48:28,035 --> 00:48:32,046
sure that that's in for a year and hopefully uh driver behavior modifies in that

543
00:48:32,046 --> 00:48:38,071
time. If not, then after the year, we would move forward with the next step. Is there

544
00:48:38,071 --> 00:48:44,082
a reason we would suddenly expect the traffic control devices that are just suggestions

545
00:48:44,082 --> 00:48:52,079
and not Mandatory to suddenly start working. Existing ones, yeah. No, I, I would

546
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:58,038
say if the existing ones have been in place for a while, we would say then that you're

547
00:48:58,038 --> 00:49:02,083
going on to step number 2. I mean, even if they haven't been, I mean, we kind of

548
00:49:02,083 --> 00:49:07,059
acknowledging that these things just in general don't work, right? Like the signs

549
00:49:07,059 --> 00:49:11,071
don't change behavior in general. That's why we're going through with all of this.

550
00:49:11,084 --> 00:49:17,091
So why would we subject people to a year of additional speeding if we know there's

551
00:49:17,091 --> 00:49:25,029
a problem. Yeah, I think it's because we haven't verified that behavior will continue

552
00:49:25,032 --> 00:49:28,091
and in this case, the, the one that I just mentioned, we haven't gotten a complaint

553
00:49:28,091 --> 00:49:36,007
since we installed that um sign. So, I, I see, I see where you're um where you're

554
00:49:36,007 --> 00:49:41,096
going with it, but I think a lot of times people don't realize um that they've, you

555
00:49:41,096 --> 00:49:46,051
know, they're in a lower speed zone until they're faced with it. Sometimes they do

556
00:49:46,051 --> 00:49:52,003
realize and, and just don't care. Um, and so I, I guess it gives the opportunity,

557
00:49:52,028 --> 00:49:57,019
it gives the sign the opportunity to work. It doesn't mean it always will, but at

558
00:49:57,019 --> 00:49:58,091
least then we can verify that it did.

559
00:50:01,033 --> 00:50:07,002
Gotta remember everything we do too, although. There's risk associated with it to

560
00:50:07,002 --> 00:50:11,052
the city as well, I mean even a traffic control device, there can be risk associated

561
00:50:11,055 --> 00:50:16,046
with that, so the most documentation we can have as a reason why we did it, will

562
00:50:16,046 --> 00:50:21,071
ultimately limit the liability to the city and any risk that may come to us, as well.

563
00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:26,014
So I think that's part of it, just the objective analysis and ultimately just trying

564
00:50:26,014 --> 00:50:31,091
to limit any risk to the city as well, using best practices. I understand where you're

565
00:50:31,091 --> 00:50:36,054
coming from as well because like you said, if what if something were to happen within

566
00:50:36,054 --> 00:50:41,006
that year, right? Yeah, like if we, if we know that this safety measure would be

567
00:50:41,031 --> 00:50:45,055
better and we don't put it in because we want to collect more data and something

568
00:50:45,055 --> 00:50:49,078
happens, are we then not opening ourselves up to liability that way too, right, so.

569
00:50:51,043 --> 00:50:55,065
To make sure we're using the best options available to us for the given situation,

570
00:50:55,067 --> 00:51:00,009
we're not hamstringing ourselves just to check a box, right? Yeah, and I mean, I

571
00:51:00,009 --> 00:51:05,087
think a lot of it like Jared's saying, you know, the MUTCD is a federal requirement,

572
00:51:05,095 --> 00:51:11,022
so we have to follow that, um, but so the documentation I think is important, but

573
00:51:11,022 --> 00:51:17,009
also we're struggling to keep up with stuff and so we wanna make sure that it's truly

574
00:51:17,009 --> 00:51:19,067
a problem that's not gonna be solved by the simplest solution.

575
00:51:23,077 --> 00:51:31,038
Um Hm Where was I? Oh yeah, 2nd condition. The measured average annual daily traffic

576
00:51:31,038 --> 00:51:36,071
has to fall between 1000 and 5000 vehicles per day. There's a floor and a ceiling.

577
00:51:36,083 --> 00:51:40,009
The floor is about proportionality, below 1000 vehicles a day. We'd be asking the

578
00:51:40,009 --> 00:51:45,054
city to build permanent concrete and then maintain and plow it indefinitely to address

579
00:51:45,054 --> 00:51:51,017
a problem affecting a small number of trips. This is a judgment about where limited

580
00:51:51,017 --> 00:51:56,079
public money and effort goes first. We still have a path for those low volume roads.

581
00:51:58,052 --> 00:52:02,081
Above 5000 vehicles a day, a street has stopped behaving like a neighborhood street.

582
00:52:03,024 --> 00:52:07,071
First, the traffic does not disappear when you calm it, it relocates. 5000 vehicles

583
00:52:07,071 --> 00:52:11,043
a day pushed onto parallel local streets can create a bigger problem than the one

584
00:52:11,043 --> 00:52:16,003
we set out to solve. Second, at those volumes, the measures like chicanes, traffic

585
00:52:16,003 --> 00:52:20,097
circles, single lane chokers begin to queue. Queuing creates its own hazards and

586
00:52:20,097 --> 00:52:24,096
it tempts drivers into passing where they should not. So the ceiling is not just

587
00:52:24,098 --> 00:52:29,033
us saying the street is fine, it's just saying it needs a different kind of attention

588
00:52:29,057 --> 00:52:33,049
through a different process with a different budget. And one practical point that

589
00:52:33,049 --> 00:52:37,025
you will see in the volume exhibit, a good share of our streets above 5000 vehicles

590
00:52:37,025 --> 00:52:42,013
a day are MDT routes such as Maine, Idaho, and Meridian. We could not install calming

591
00:52:42,013 --> 00:52:46,097
on those unilaterally even if we thought it was the right answer. The third condition,

592
00:52:47,001 --> 00:52:52,085
we need at least one of three things, a documented crash pattern in 5 years, an 85th

593
00:52:52,085 --> 00:52:56,072
percentile speed more than 5 miles an hour over the posted speed on a local street

594
00:52:56,074 --> 00:53:02,053
or 10 miles an hour over the posted speed limit on a collector or arterial, or 5%

595
00:53:02,053 --> 00:53:06,085
of the traffic running 10 miles 10 miles an hour over the posted speed limit on the

596
00:53:06,085 --> 00:53:12,006
local street, or 15 miles an hour on collectors or arterials. So these are what we're

597
00:53:12,006 --> 00:53:19,058
setting as the gate. Um Couple of things. I'm, and I'm just kinda looking at the,

598
00:53:19,076 --> 00:53:25,099
the, uh, the Appendix A, uh, flow chart, uh, for this as well in, in terms of my

599
00:53:25,099 --> 00:53:30,011
thinking. But, um, I know we're kind of basing the premise on a request, and obviously,

600
00:53:30,013 --> 00:53:37,022
a lot of this will be kind of, uh, resident driven from complaints and, and uh requests.

601
00:53:37,044 --> 00:53:43,027
But I also think it's important that we flag or note that staff should be able to

602
00:53:43,027 --> 00:53:50,095
initiate Uh, their own process. If, if we know of a road that's a problem, um,

603
00:53:51,057 --> 00:53:59,034
even if there's not kind of a resident initiated request or effort that And, and

604
00:53:59,036 --> 00:54:06,033
based on like our transportation plan or our safety action plan, we have analysis

605
00:54:06,033 --> 00:54:11,045
that says, yes, this is a good location for a traffic calming measure that staff

606
00:54:11,045 --> 00:54:17,041
can initiate that. Um, I, and I noted in the document too that all the references

607
00:54:17,041 --> 00:54:22,065
to staff um involvement is public works, which I understand because these are physical

608
00:54:22,065 --> 00:54:26,005
features, you're going to have the engineering side and you have to have public works.

609
00:54:26,043 --> 00:54:31,001
But on the, you know, safety action plan and the transportation plan, that's our

610
00:54:31,001 --> 00:54:36,035
planning department. So I think planning department should also have a role in this

611
00:54:36,035 --> 00:54:43,069
process of identifying locations and kind of initiating efforts, uh, to install traffic

612
00:54:43,069 --> 00:54:48,093
calming. So, um, that was kind of one of the first things I, I flagged on the, on

613
00:54:48,093 --> 00:54:53,056
the process end. But the second thing was, um, Again, in a lot of the references,

614
00:54:53,065 --> 00:55:00,048
it's uh uh an emphasis on speed reduction, which I certainly think that's, uh, uh,

615
00:55:00,077 --> 00:55:05,083
important, maybe one of the primary things. Um, but there's also other considerations

616
00:55:05,083 --> 00:55:12,007
of just safety, regardless of speed, uh, and also traffic volume. And so safety might

617
00:55:12,007 --> 00:55:17,011
be a, a pedestrian crossing area where you want to erase crossing because it's going

618
00:55:17,011 --> 00:55:22,031
to be more visible and, and uh people, traffic's going to be slowing to that point

619
00:55:22,031 --> 00:55:27,019
anyways uh for, for pedestrian crossings. But also, when I think about the street

620
00:55:27,019 --> 00:55:32,099
I live on, 3rd Avenue East, You could say that making it two-way rather than a one-way

621
00:55:32,099 --> 00:55:39,003
was a traffic calming. Effort Um, and it wasn't because of speed, because there was

622
00:55:39,003 --> 00:55:45,037
never really a documented speed problem on 3rd and 4th. It was a volume issue of

623
00:55:45,037 --> 00:55:51,022
people using it as a cut-through, uh, when 1st Avenue East was available and had

624
00:55:51,022 --> 00:55:56,005
capacity and was more appropriate for that. And so we implemented the two-way, and

625
00:55:56,007 --> 00:56:02,073
it worked. It effectively moved 80% of the traffic over to 1st or Main. And that

626
00:56:02,073 --> 00:56:08,038
had nothing to do with speed. So, I think it's important to acknowledge that um traffic

627
00:56:08,038 --> 00:56:13,061
calming can be more than just a speed issue. It can be a safety and a volume issue

628
00:56:13,061 --> 00:56:21,005
as well. Yeah, um, so on the, on the city staff, it's interesting because

629
00:56:21,072 --> 00:56:27,002
when we drafted this, we had city staff in and then we decided that wasn't appropriate.

630
00:56:27,022 --> 00:56:32,002
We pulled city staff out. Then we met to go through it and we added police and fire

631
00:56:32,004 --> 00:56:37,051
in. And then we ended up pulling it back out and, and part of what we are struggling

632
00:56:37,053 --> 00:56:44,008
with on the um city staff side of things is our process requires local support and

633
00:56:44,008 --> 00:56:51,051
so where we struggled was if, you know, if the fire chief wanted uh traffic calming

634
00:56:51,053 --> 00:56:57,059
in a place. Then who's going to be the person to go out and get the local support

635
00:56:57,061 --> 00:57:01,072
as part of this process and so that's another question we're gonna get to. What's

636
00:57:01,072 --> 00:57:05,072
that? It's a whole other section we're gonna get to we'll get to that in a minute.

637
00:57:05,089 --> 00:57:12,023
So, so some of it was we were. Waiting for this discussion to happen so we could

638
00:57:12,023 --> 00:57:17,098
recognize how to then maybe stick in who would initiate uh what certain projects

639
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:23,091
and what council would be acceptable for. So it, it was hard to just for me to initiate

640
00:57:23,091 --> 00:57:29,007
a pro a problem. And have a resident pay for it, you know, if they, if we decided

641
00:57:29,007 --> 00:57:34,031
that we were only gonna do SID for traffic calming, um, you know, and I was initiating

642
00:57:34,031 --> 00:57:39,035
all these traffic calmings and placing an SID, you know, out there that I wanted

643
00:57:39,035 --> 00:57:46,027
to make sure that, um, We got direction from council on how we were going to address

644
00:57:46,029 --> 00:57:53,006
the traffic calming issues that were arises and I. Yeah. I, and I get that. I mean,

645
00:57:53,069 --> 00:57:58,003
obviously, if our only funding mechanism is going to be an SID then uh it makes sense

646
00:57:58,005 --> 00:58:02,072
that you have that support. Um, that's the only way it's gonna happen. Um, but if

647
00:58:02,072 --> 00:58:08,076
we do choose to go with, um, you know, other options to include in, in addition to

648
00:58:08,076 --> 00:58:15,053
SID then, um, you know, I, I would expand it and You know, part of an example why

649
00:58:15,053 --> 00:58:21,043
is we all know that people love to complain about traffic circles and roundabouts.

650
00:58:21,065 --> 00:58:26,088
Um, but we also know the data is overwhelming about how effective they are as a safety

651
00:58:26,088 --> 00:58:33,023
measure. So, um, I, I wouldn't want, you know, our focus should be what works, right?

652
00:58:33,041 --> 00:58:39,094
What's safe. Um, and if that's a traffic circle, People are gonna complain about

653
00:58:39,094 --> 00:58:45,034
before it goes in, but it's going to be effective in making the streets safer, then

654
00:58:45,034 --> 00:58:52,066
maybe we should, you know, move forward with it. Um, so, uh, I just wanna, yeah,

655
00:58:52,093 --> 00:58:58,037
uh, I, I think public support, you know, residential support is important, but sometimes,

656
00:58:58,043 --> 00:59:05,078
um, the data speaks for itself. Mhm. Yeah, and we don't, we don't ask people about

657
00:59:05,078 --> 00:59:10,057
sewer line replacements, you know, when we need to do it, we need to do it. Yeah,

658
00:59:10,087 --> 00:59:14,006
but we also have a funding mechanism for that, and we bring that through a capital.

659
00:59:14,015 --> 00:59:21,006
So if we develop that process, yeah, I, I, I completely, yeah, as soon as we have

660
00:59:21,006 --> 00:59:26,061
a funding mechanism and a process, then I say yes, but I thought it was a little

661
00:59:26,063 --> 00:59:30,007
bit ahead of the discussion to put that stuff into the policy, knowing that we were

662
00:59:30,007 --> 00:59:36,002
going to talk about it. And then, uh, on the, the volume, um, that is, that is one

663
00:59:36,002 --> 00:59:44,002
of our, uh, minimums that are required there. Um. I, I guess our Uh, Mr. Mayor,

664
00:59:44,029 --> 00:59:50,036
are you speaking to the volumes that we've chosen, or, um, no, I, I think, I, I guess

665
00:59:50,036 --> 00:59:55,052
it's just maybe, uh, inconsistency in the, in the document because I did see it elsewhere,

666
00:59:55,057 --> 01:00:01,012
the, you know, reference to volume, um, but on the flow chart it Only mentioned speed

667
01:00:01,012 --> 01:00:06,064
issues. Um, so I would just maybe make sure that it's consistent that wherever we're

668
01:00:06,064 --> 01:00:11,006
referencing kind of the, the purposes or objectives of traffic calming that, uh,

669
01:00:11,077 --> 01:00:16,056
you know, it, it has the full complement of speed, safety, and volume. OK. Yeah,

670
01:00:16,085 --> 01:00:23,057
um, one thing we'll look at here in a minute is that the, the volume does, um, Increase

671
01:00:23,057 --> 01:00:30,047
the score on the rubric, so the higher the volume, the higher the score. Um, I, I

672
01:00:30,047 --> 01:00:35,003
also worry a little bit too about the, the documented collision pattern. Like, is

673
01:00:35,003 --> 01:00:41,003
this, we have to have 10 number of people hospitalized before we can put in. A safety

674
01:00:41,003 --> 01:00:45,074
feature or can we like can we put in language that if there is a safety feature,

675
01:00:45,082 --> 01:00:52,048
a near miss, if there is a problem that we can act before someone is hurt or dies?

676
01:00:52,087 --> 01:00:58,017
Yeah, it's, it's one of the measures, um, so the crash patterns, so we're saying

677
01:00:58,017 --> 01:01:01,085
one of those three, right? So if there is a crash pattern, we certainly want that

678
01:01:01,085 --> 01:01:05,075
to be included. So like what if it's just a high volume area with low visibility

679
01:01:05,009 --> 01:01:09,068
and it's not speed, so there's no, there hasn't been a crash yet, but there's been

680
01:01:09,007 --> 01:01:14,096
several near misses, for example, between pedestrians and cars. Near misses are really

681
01:01:15,006 --> 01:01:20,075
hard to document and qualify, so I don't know how to even You don't got a lot of,

682
01:01:20,086 --> 01:01:25,041
you don't, you just don't have a lot of verification with near misses. Uh, it's just

683
01:01:25,041 --> 01:01:30,016
hard to warrant something on a near miss. So we, we just don't have a lot of data

684
01:01:30,018 --> 01:01:35,049
to say, yep, this should be in here because we got a near miss. There's, there's

685
01:01:35,049 --> 01:01:41,009
not a lot of data or um warrants for us to go on on that.

686
01:01:43,036 --> 01:01:47,055
So we're, we're looking for something a little bit more direction. So with, with

687
01:01:47,055 --> 01:01:54,051
data that is, um, repeatable data that's defendable, but near misses are hard because

688
01:01:54,051 --> 01:01:59,086
we get a lot of calls on near misses, a lot of calls, so there's near misses everywhere.

689
01:02:00,024 --> 01:02:04,086
So it's just really hard to quantify a near miss. Well, sure, a lot of it's relative

690
01:02:04,088 --> 01:02:10,044
to the person, right, um, so two people aren't gonna say the same thing about the

691
01:02:10,044 --> 01:02:14,076
same. Incident and I guess like I said if we can identify that there is an issue,

692
01:02:14,093 --> 01:02:18,068
for example, poor visibility on a high volume street when you go out there, even

693
01:02:18,068 --> 01:02:23,028
if it's hard to verify that there's no missage, you can say yes, people are crossing

694
01:02:23,028 --> 01:02:28,056
here and it's not safe like you can, and, and in that case I think that's one of

695
01:02:28,056 --> 01:02:34,045
the instances where we would look at doing an RRFB, a pet actuated RFB, to, to let

696
01:02:35,005 --> 01:02:40,009
the drivers see that pedestrians are there needing to cross. Um, and, and there's,

697
01:02:40,022 --> 01:02:45,057
you know, we're, we're focused really on traffic calming, um, but, you know, there's

698
01:02:45,057 --> 01:02:50,027
other things that we're looking at, um, site vision triangles at intersections and

699
01:02:50,046 --> 01:02:56,013
those don't really fall directly into this, uh, policy. So, if we're looking at,

700
01:02:56,026 --> 01:03:01,017
um, when and where, uh, stop sign might need to go, that could be related to a site

701
01:03:01,017 --> 01:03:06,021
vision issue at an intersection. And if we, if, if it's a building and not a tree,

702
01:03:06,078 --> 01:03:11,037
Then we probably need to install a stop sign. It just really, you know, from situation

703
01:03:11,037 --> 01:03:16,004
to situation, it varies but um it's not necessarily a traffic calming thing. It's,

704
01:03:16,042 --> 01:03:21,019
it's uh more related to that specific location usually. OK.

705
01:03:25,006 --> 01:03:27,049
Um OK.

706
01:03:30,008 --> 01:03:35,021
All right. So the process we're proposing, once a request qualifies, it gets scored.

707
01:03:35,055 --> 01:03:41,094
We have 5 categories weighted. Speed and crash history carry 30% each. Pedestrian

708
01:03:41,094 --> 01:03:47,086
generators carry 25, volume is 10, and that's deliberate. Volume is already a gate

709
01:03:47,086 --> 01:03:52,093
in the qualifying criteria, so weighting it heavily here would count it twice. Street

710
01:03:52,093 --> 01:04:00,021
characteristics like um tangent length grade carry 5. Notice that speeds, crashes,

711
01:04:00,035 --> 01:04:05,025
and pedestrian generators together are 85% of the score. That's the statement of

712
01:04:05,027 --> 01:04:10,018
what we're saying the program is for. The score puts a request in one of 4 tiers,

713
01:04:10,023 --> 01:04:15,077
from monitor only up to critical. And the tears connect to a real response. A critical

714
01:04:15,077 --> 01:04:20,065
request goes to engineering design. A low one gets logged and monitored. There's

715
01:04:20,065 --> 01:04:25,059
an engineering discretion provision. I can move something into the queue for an emergency,

716
01:04:25,094 --> 01:04:30,041
a grant deadline, or to coordinate with a street reconstruction or other capital

717
01:04:30,041 --> 01:04:35,053
improvement project that we're already doing. The rubric answers the fairness question.

718
01:04:35,098 --> 01:04:40,037
When a resident asks why the street isn't first, we can show them the score.

719
01:04:44,008 --> 01:04:51,091
So our GIS staff put this together um and near the end, I can open it up.

720
01:04:53,001 --> 01:04:56,078
I'm just not wanting to do it now because I have to go out of the presentation. Um,

721
01:04:56,095 --> 01:05:01,001
but I think this, this is a pretty good snapshot of, uh, the main area out of the

722
01:05:01,001 --> 01:05:08,048
2040, uh, plan. Um, this maps the 2040 modeled volumes.

723
01:05:08,078 --> 01:05:16,008
Red is volumes over 5000, orange is between 1000 and 5000, and yellow is between

724
01:05:16,001 --> 01:05:23,083
500 and 1000. Orange per this recommended, recommended, recommended policy is what

725
01:05:23,083 --> 01:05:29,055
matters per um the document because 1000 vehicles a day is a floor on our qualifying

726
01:05:29,055 --> 01:05:34,018
criteria. And then I also want to be careful about what this does and doesn't say.

727
01:05:34,031 --> 01:05:39,001
First, volume alone qualifies nothing. Every one of these streets still has to have

728
01:05:39,003 --> 01:05:43,062
had standard controls in place for a year and still needs either a crash problem

729
01:05:43,062 --> 01:05:48,007
or a speed problem. Second, these volumes are from the Move 2040 transportation plan

730
01:05:48,007 --> 01:05:53,062
which was built on data about 10 years old. So in order to determine current volumes,

731
01:05:53,075 --> 01:05:55,006
data will have to be collected.

732
01:05:57,086 --> 01:06:01,085
We, we really just wanted to give you a picture of where the threshold would be applied

733
01:06:01,098 --> 01:06:05,078
cause it really does kinda, uh, these roads would be, but some of the local roads

734
01:06:05,078 --> 01:06:08,077
really don't apply. So just keep that in the back of your mind.

735
01:06:10,085 --> 01:06:16,096
So, we have scored eight locations against the rubric. Crash data comes from MDT

736
01:06:16,096 --> 01:06:23,001
crash summary reports for September 2021 through September 2026. Segment links were

737
01:06:23,001 --> 01:06:29,039
measured in City GIS. Four mile drive out of these eight is ranked the highest at

738
01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:35,099
41.75. It's the only location in the top speed band more than 10 miles an hour over

739
01:06:35,099 --> 01:06:42,001
the posted speed limit. And that single category contributes 24 of its points. Its

740
01:06:42,001 --> 01:06:46,097
crash density is among the lowest on the list. Three crashes over 2800 ft. And so

741
01:06:46,097 --> 01:06:53,096
this is a speeding problem, not a crash problem. East Oregon is 2nd at 39.5, and

742
01:06:53,096 --> 01:06:58,092
it's the mirror image, the highest crash density in the set, and that's not surprising

743
01:06:58,092 --> 01:07:06,026
due to the number of intersections. 14.5 per 1000 ft, 37 crashes in 5 years with

744
01:07:06,026 --> 01:07:11,094
8 involving injuries. You'll remember East Oregon from the 2021 presentation or you

745
01:07:11,094 --> 01:07:17,014
might not if you weren't here. Um, 5 years later, the rubric independently places

746
01:07:17,014 --> 01:07:24,094
it near the top. 7th Street is 3rd at 33.5, and those three make up the high tier.

747
01:07:26,016 --> 01:07:31,015
North Main and Silverbrook Drive are 4th and 5th, both at moderate. Silverbrook is

748
01:07:31,015 --> 01:07:34,098
worth a moment because it shows the scoring working at the margin. Three crashes

749
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:41,047
over 3100 ft puts its density at 0.96, just under the first break point, so it earns

750
01:07:41,047 --> 01:07:45,022
nothing from the density of the crashes, but one of those three was an injury crash.

751
01:07:45,006 --> 01:07:50,063
So the severity modifier gives it 10 points. An injury still registers even when

752
01:07:50,063 --> 01:07:56,089
the crash pattern is thin. That is the balance that we're trying to strike. Uh, Bluestone

753
01:07:57,009 --> 01:08:04,057
is 6th at 17. 2 injury crashes spread over 2600 ft and the density is modest. And

754
01:08:04,057 --> 01:08:09,021
the bottom two are useful ones. 5th Street East scores 8 and Riverview Drive scores

755
01:08:09,021 --> 01:08:14,061
5. Riverview has no crashes in 5 years, speeds at or below the posted speed limit,

756
01:08:14,066 --> 01:08:19,041
under 1000 vehicles a day, and short tangent sections. Its entire score comes from

757
01:08:19,041 --> 01:08:23,081
being near a trail on Whitefish Stage. The criteria and the rubric agree with each

758
01:08:23,081 --> 01:08:27,073
other and we can show a resident how their street compares to others based on these

759
01:08:27,073 --> 01:08:34,022
objective data. Some of these would also need MDT coordination and 4 mile drive is

760
01:08:34,022 --> 01:08:40,000
a minor arterial where most of our toolboxes rated least appropriate. As a side note

761
01:08:41,093 --> 01:08:46,052
This is great. I, I appreciate you putting together that slide because that's all

762
01:08:46,052 --> 01:08:50,064
the, you know, if I think about the complaints we've received in recent years, yeah,

763
01:08:50,077 --> 01:08:55,056
I, you know, you, you grabbed them all and, and, uh, being able to see how they rank

764
01:08:55,056 --> 01:08:59,052
against each other. That's a, that's a great, uh, great tool. I love that. Thank

765
01:08:59,052 --> 01:09:01,042
you. You bet.

766
01:09:03,089 --> 01:09:06,084
It's it even means more if you're not colorblind like me, cause then you can see

767
01:09:06,084 --> 01:09:07,067
where things go.

768
01:09:11,004 --> 01:09:15,068
It looks good. What happens when the volume is too low to qualify for traffic calming

769
01:09:15,068 --> 01:09:20,063
but speed or crashes verify a need? Just reporting to a resident that the project

770
01:09:20,065 --> 01:09:24,008
doesn't qualify, doesn't feel like the right place to leave a resident whose street

771
01:09:24,008 --> 01:09:28,058
has a real speeding problem, so we're proposing a second path. If a local street

772
01:09:28,058 --> 01:09:33,008
has standard controls in place for a year and shows either a crash pattern, and 85th

773
01:09:33,008 --> 01:09:38,003
percentile speed more than 5/ or 5% of traffic running 10 or more over, but its volume

774
01:09:38,003 --> 01:09:42,087
is at or below 1000 vehicles a day, it would not move forward with the standard traffic

775
01:09:42,087 --> 01:09:48,017
calming process. As a reminder, the 1000 vehicles per day volume threshold is the

776
01:09:48,017 --> 01:09:51,013
point where we've recommended permanent construction as a reasonable threshold to

777
01:09:51,013 --> 01:09:56,021
move forward with traffic calming processes. Limited city resources go to the locations

778
01:09:56,021 --> 01:10:00,004
that meet it, but a speed or crash problem on a quiet street is still a real problem

779
01:10:00,004 --> 01:10:04,044
to the people who live on it. Under this recommended policy, those locations may

780
01:10:04,044 --> 01:10:08,048
advance as non-threshold projects designed and funded entirely from sources other

781
01:10:08,048 --> 01:10:13,081
than the city. The technical process is still the same. They need the same 67% property

782
01:10:13,081 --> 01:10:17,044
owner support, a design prepared to city standards and approved by the city engineer,

783
01:10:17,082 --> 01:10:20,069
and the concurrence of the public works director, the police chief, and the fire

784
01:10:20,069 --> 01:10:24,093
chief. What they don't get is a position in the priority queue because they aren't

785
01:10:24,093 --> 01:10:29,024
drawing on city funds. In these cases, the usual mechanism is a special improvement

786
01:10:29,024 --> 01:10:35,011
district under Title 7. however, property owners could also use private funding,

787
01:10:35,044 --> 01:10:41,004
an HOA or POA contribution or an outside grant. Staff will hand over the traffic

788
01:10:41,004 --> 01:10:44,064
data, the crash records, and the technical work we've already done and we'll review

789
01:10:44,064 --> 01:10:48,099
and approve the design, but we will not prepare or administer a grant application

790
01:10:49,001 --> 01:10:54,002
or complete a design for a non-threshold project. What makes us defensible is that

791
01:10:54,002 --> 01:10:57,032
these streets don't meet the determined threshold for allocating city resources in

792
01:10:57,032 --> 01:11:01,084
the first place and the people paying are the people guiding and benefiting the most

793
01:11:01,084 --> 01:11:02,006
from the solution.

794
01:11:04,061 --> 01:11:09,081
I anticipate there's questions on that. I, I would just say, um, I, I think it makes

795
01:11:09,081 --> 01:11:13,033
sense, you know, we have a prioritization, so we're making the most effective use

796
01:11:13,033 --> 01:11:19,016
of our, our funds. Um, so it, it, it makes sense. I would just say that Someday,

797
01:11:19,022 --> 01:11:26,085
in a very um optimistic future, if we are able to meet our needs uh for traffic

798
01:11:26,085 --> 01:11:33,031
calming on the higher priority streets and There's, you know, we're flush with funding

799
01:11:33,031 --> 01:11:37,088
for doing these projects, uh, that we might come back and revise this to be able

800
01:11:37,088 --> 01:11:43,083
to go and do the lower volume streets, uh, and, and provide city funding, um, because

801
01:11:43,083 --> 01:11:47,075
I do think, you know, there are streets that are lower volume that could use it,

802
01:11:47,092 --> 01:11:51,006
um, obviously. With limited funding, they're not going to be a priority and they're,

803
01:11:51,073 --> 01:11:56,004
you know, so this makes sense. But, uh, someday in the future if we knock off our

804
01:11:56,004 --> 01:11:59,096
checklist of those higher priority streets and, and we still have funding available

805
01:11:59,096 --> 01:12:03,092
that we could come back and revise this and go, go do some of those, those lower

806
01:12:03,092 --> 01:12:06,012
priority ones. Yeah, that makes sense.

807
01:12:09,002 --> 01:12:13,039
Yeah, I, what I like here is again, I think the volume really helps us talk about

808
01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:18,096
where we're putting public dollars. But again, if there's. A neighborhood that's

809
01:12:18,096 --> 01:12:21,092
seeing the issue that they still have an option of a way forward and that there's

810
01:12:21,092 --> 01:12:28,012
some. Information that the staff's able to provide for that, but I think it. That's

811
01:12:28,012 --> 01:12:32,048
where I appreciate the threshold right now because I think that that helps helps

812
01:12:32,048 --> 01:12:34,055
us focus in on where the issues are.

813
01:12:38,001 --> 01:12:45,006
Great. All right, so what happens next once our project qualifies? The rubric score

814
01:12:45,006 --> 01:12:48,009
helps us prioritize projects. We'll take them in order of priority, then staff will

815
01:12:48,009 --> 01:12:52,097
write a tech memo and send it to the requester and to the benefited property owners.

816
01:12:53,027 --> 01:12:57,029
Then we need 2/3 of those property owners to sign in favor before we spend engineering

817
01:12:57,031 --> 01:13:03,036
time. An HOA or POA letter can substitute for individual signatures. We previously

818
01:13:03,036 --> 01:13:08,067
chose 67% or 2/3 as a reasonable number because it shows a large contingent of support.

819
01:13:08,093 --> 01:13:13,068
Also, if an SID becomes necessary for funding the construction, the chances are we're

820
01:13:13,068 --> 01:13:18,099
likely to get less than 50% protesting the SID. If we clear that, we do preliminary

821
01:13:18,099 --> 01:13:23,095
engineering, uh, make up to 3 alternatives with cost estimates, and hold a neighborhood

822
01:13:23,095 --> 01:13:28,046
meeting. To advance, we need 2/3 of the owners who attend plus the public works director,

823
01:13:28,056 --> 01:13:32,017
the police chief, and the fire chief to agree with the chosen alternative and a cost.

824
01:13:32,009 --> 01:13:36,064
Any of those three can stop a design that compromises emergency response or a level

825
01:13:36,064 --> 01:13:42,006
of service, and that's intentional. Then funding. Nothing goes to the final design

826
01:13:42,008 --> 01:13:46,068
without a secured funding source. We'd rather tell a neighborhood no at this stage

827
01:13:46,068 --> 01:13:50,042
than design something we can't build. If a special improvement district is needed

828
01:13:50,044 --> 01:13:54,031
in whole or in part, the petition has to be approved by the council before final

829
01:13:54,031 --> 01:13:59,083
design begins. Then final design, bidding, construction, and the city takes over

830
01:13:59,089 --> 01:14:00,056
for maintenance.

831
01:14:05,065 --> 01:14:11,001
So fun chapter funding. This is a chapter where we need the most from you and it's

832
01:14:11,001 --> 01:14:17,083
where the draft is deliberately incomplete. So possible funding sources include local

833
01:14:17,083 --> 01:14:21,091
assessment, which would include a special improvement district, which is the traditional

834
01:14:21,091 --> 01:14:27,027
route. The Montana Board of Investments revolving loan, which lets us borrow below

835
01:14:27,027 --> 01:14:31,023
market and pass that rate through so annual assessments on a homeowner is lower.

836
01:14:31,099 --> 01:14:35,074
And the Street Maintenance District Improvement Authority, which we'll come to in

837
01:14:35,074 --> 01:14:42,063
the next slide. Uh, city grants, uh, or city and grant sources, I'm sorry, an appropriation

838
01:14:42,063 --> 01:14:48,091
from the general fund that some of the communities have used, uh, federal HSIP safety

839
01:14:48,091 --> 01:14:55,086
money through MDT, transportation alternatives, um, at about a 13% local match,

840
01:14:56,044 --> 01:15:03,048
CDBG and NHTSA grants and tax increment financing where we're inside a district.

841
01:15:04,097 --> 01:15:09,024
Uh, development sources that could include developer constructed improvements like

842
01:15:09,024 --> 01:15:14,051
we have in chapter 7. Negotiating a cash contribution through a development agreement

843
01:15:15,008 --> 01:15:20,001
or we could collect in transportation impact fees where an adopted program identifies

844
01:15:20,001 --> 01:15:25,096
calming as an eligible facility. And then one that isn't on the list, which we want

845
01:15:25,096 --> 01:15:31,046
to know is gas tax money was considered. Wasn't considered for this purpose. Our

846
01:15:31,046 --> 01:15:36,068
fuel tax apportionment is fully committed to street maintenance and pavement preservation

847
01:15:37,014 --> 01:15:40,013
and STPU funds are restricted to the urban highway system.

848
01:15:44,048 --> 01:15:49,001
So, this section of the draft is deliberately blank. It says placeholder pending

849
01:15:49,001 --> 01:15:52,066
council input, and we didn't want to write the city's funding strategy without hearing

850
01:15:52,066 --> 01:15:58,086
from you first. These are the funding options, Group one, grants, HSEP, transportation

851
01:15:58,086 --> 01:16:04,082
alternatives, CDBG. Federal safety money is the cheapest money we can spend and if

852
01:16:04,082 --> 01:16:09,038
a location has a crash history, it may compete well. Each grant has its own hurdles

853
01:16:09,038 --> 01:16:14,046
though, one of which is commonly a competitive selection process. This is a source

854
01:16:14,046 --> 01:16:18,002
that may be opportunistic for certain projects that fit a grant's requirement when

855
01:16:18,002 --> 01:16:22,003
funding is available, but really isn't a dependable source for a continuous program.

856
01:16:23,004 --> 01:16:28,087
Group 2, tax increment financing. If we're inside a district and the project fits

857
01:16:28,087 --> 01:16:33,063
the urban renewal plan, these projects require review by the URA before coming before

858
01:16:33,063 --> 01:16:37,091
council. Projects must be within a TIFF district before the funds can be considered.

859
01:16:38,089 --> 01:16:43,064
3, general fund. Council could designate a certain amount of money annually to be

860
01:16:43,064 --> 01:16:47,032
used for traffic calming. Staff would work towards trying to complete projects as

861
01:16:47,032 --> 01:16:52,069
money is available. For the street maintenance district, this option would require

862
01:16:52,069 --> 01:16:56,093
counsel to amend the current ordinance. An example ordinance is provided in Appendix

863
01:16:56,093 --> 01:17:02,021
B which would need to be vetted by the city attorney. 5, an SID. This option remains

864
01:17:02,021 --> 01:17:05,097
a viable funding source but can put a burden on affected neighborhoods dealing with

865
01:17:05,097 --> 01:17:10,021
cut-through traffic. This became an issue of much discussion in our previous presentations

866
01:17:10,021 --> 01:17:14,063
to council. What we'd like from council is your ideas and how we should fund these

867
01:17:14,063 --> 01:17:18,079
projects. We could allocate monies from the general fund like other Montana communities

868
01:17:18,079 --> 01:17:22,034
do. We could modify our street maintenance district ordinance to include improvements,

869
01:17:22,006 --> 01:17:26,053
which would allow us to complete traffic calming projects. And we'll give you some

870
01:17:27,003 --> 01:17:29,009
time for input here in a couple of slides where we'll focus more on it.

871
01:17:33,059 --> 01:17:40,008
It's a great question. So Missoula pays for other general fund, right? And it's only

872
01:17:41,017 --> 01:17:48,077
50,000 a year. Or last year was 50,000. Last year was 50,000, yeah. And Billings

873
01:17:48,077 --> 01:17:53,057
does entirely by SID, right? Do you know the comparison on how many projects are

874
01:17:53,057 --> 01:17:59,065
completed by each city in the last fiscal year? I did not do an evaluation. I don't

875
01:17:59,065 --> 01:18:03,077
know if you looked at that. I, I didn't look at it, but I think it's just gonna depend

876
01:18:03,077 --> 01:18:07,004
on the project too, the, the scope of the project, whether you're doing small bull

877
01:18:07,004 --> 01:18:10,089
bouts, whether you're doing a traffic circle. So it just probably depends on what

878
01:18:10,089 --> 01:18:15,093
type of project they did year by year. Do we have any idea how effective either one

879
01:18:15,093 --> 01:18:22,004
has been for each city? Because one's even happy, one expanded, the other one's unhappy,

880
01:18:22,042 --> 01:18:28,004
and then nothing's stalling. Yeah, I think both Missoula and Bozeman have data showing

881
01:18:28,032 --> 01:18:34,074
that they're effective. Um, and you know, Missoula's program has morphed over time,

882
01:18:34,088 --> 01:18:40,051
um, so they, they have changed how they're, um, moving forward. Bozeman added the

883
01:18:40,051 --> 01:18:46,055
rubric, um, and yeah, I think both of those have data that shows their effectiveness.

884
01:18:46,092 --> 01:18:51,051
And Bozeman, if you recall, is only seasonal, so they, they rip theirs out. They

885
01:18:51,051 --> 01:18:58,039
install it in the spring and take it out in the fall. And does it make a sense difference

886
01:18:58,039 --> 01:19:03,088
as well because I know Missoula isn't. Citizen driven, right, they, it's all coming

887
01:19:03,088 --> 01:19:08,036
from their city planning department and they couple, they have a couple of their

888
01:19:08,036 --> 01:19:14,058
departments, right? They have a multi-department, um, review process, yeah, um, I

889
01:19:14,058 --> 01:19:19,008
think it's, I think it's, yeah, staff generated. That was what I got from my yeah.

890
01:19:21,094 --> 01:19:28,007
And then we currently sort of see from. Our current work with the grant process,

891
01:19:28,012 --> 01:19:33,019
I mean some of these things as permanent are not really currently eligible for a

892
01:19:33,019 --> 01:19:38,007
lot of the grants. That's where we ran across with the demo grant for Safe Streets

893
01:19:38,007 --> 01:19:45,001
for all, you as a demo project you couldn't put in permanent features. Which made

894
01:19:45,001 --> 01:19:51,029
it very difficult to find something that we could put in. And then you said that

895
01:19:51,037 --> 01:19:56,087
you could use a um impact fees, transportation impact fees, is that, where does that

896
01:19:56,091 --> 01:20:02,012
fall on this list? Uh, that's, did I forget to put that in the list?

897
01:20:06,075 --> 01:20:11,001
Well, we don't necessarily have traffic impact fees. So if that would be something

898
01:20:11,007 --> 01:20:15,042
that council wants us to move forward with to review traffic impact fees, then we

899
01:20:15,042 --> 01:20:20,026
would, that would be a whole additional conversation, but we don't have traffic impact

900
01:20:20,026 --> 01:20:25,069
fees at this time. It could be a potential projects we could add into it if we ever

901
01:20:25,085 --> 01:20:31,027
were directed to re-look at traffic. Impact fees and it can only be used on new development.

902
01:20:31,046 --> 01:20:35,053
Traffic impact fees are only for new development, so it wouldn't go into existing

903
01:20:35,053 --> 01:20:39,001
neighborhoods at all. It'd be only for support of new development, and that's what

904
01:20:39,001 --> 01:20:46,005
this slide is. I, the, the top is for existing streets. If traffic impact fees can

905
01:20:46,005 --> 01:20:49,099
only be used for new development, but we have a whole section about kind of new development

906
01:20:50,006 --> 01:20:55,063
and, you know, requiring it for the development. Um, we wouldn't necessarily need

907
01:20:55,065 --> 01:21:00,004
traffic impact fees because for that purpose because we would just, it'd be part

908
01:21:00,004 --> 01:21:05,044
of our requirements for the design, uh, approval, right? Yes, yes and no. I, I think

909
01:21:05,044 --> 01:21:10,095
where it might still have a place is off-site. So this works really well for on-site

910
01:21:10,095 --> 01:21:17,034
streets, the new streets, but where you're, um, having traffic funnel into a development

911
01:21:17,057 --> 01:21:23,067
can have a, a pretty big impact and so that could be utilized on some of those locations.

912
01:21:23,069 --> 01:21:25,088
Um, Right, OK.

913
01:21:32,013 --> 01:21:37,095
Uh, OK. Do you wanna explain a little more what this, the street maintenance and

914
01:21:37,095 --> 01:21:43,000
what a proposed change would look like and how implementation of that would be, cause

915
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:46,035
yeah, grant eligibility, it's hard to create a, you can't really create a program

916
01:21:46,035 --> 01:21:51,075
based off of that, it really be project specific. TIFF eligibility, certainly, as

917
01:21:51,075 --> 01:21:57,049
long as our TIFFs are active, the ability to do that is, would be, you know, relatively

918
01:21:57,049 --> 01:22:02,031
easy. I think everything we're talking about aligns with our TIFF districts as it

919
01:22:02,031 --> 01:22:06,007
is. Um, SID formation is very

920
01:22:09,006 --> 01:22:12,036
You know, it doesn't spread the cost throughout the entire city, but at the same

921
01:22:12,038 --> 01:22:17,037
time, if you have a neighborhood that wants something and 67% feel like it's needed,

922
01:22:17,042 --> 01:22:22,077
it could be a very easy tool as well, it just, you know, you're really the cost is

923
01:22:22,077 --> 01:22:27,077
being borne by really that neighborhood or that street, so certainly there could

924
01:22:27,077 --> 01:22:31,053
be some inequities there if you're looking at say a street that's getting a lot of

925
01:22:31,053 --> 01:22:36,002
regional traffic or something, but, At the same time it is an option, I think that's

926
01:22:36,002 --> 01:22:40,026
why Billings went that route. There still is a lot of staff time that goes into SIDs

927
01:22:40,033 --> 01:22:46,042
and creation and ultimate um. Kind of management of those, but it's probably the

928
01:22:46,042 --> 01:22:50,054
most straightforward and then the street maintenance and kind of our history with

929
01:22:50,054 --> 01:22:55,078
that and any changes that may mean may need needed is yeah so we currently have a

930
01:22:55,078 --> 01:23:01,038
street maintenance district called District one and as we that code was adopt adopted

931
01:23:01,054 --> 01:23:06,022
by the city years ago we identified what the street maintenance district could be

932
01:23:06,022 --> 01:23:13,034
used for and right now it's. to use for maintenance of the streets and so, but under

933
01:23:13,052 --> 01:23:18,035
uh Montana Code, we can add improvements to our street maintenance district and to

934
01:23:18,035 --> 01:23:24,086
do that, we would have to identify what improvements would be supported by the street

935
01:23:24,086 --> 01:23:28,063
maintenance district improvements portion and we would increase the assessment to

936
01:23:28,063 --> 01:23:34,006
accommodate those capital projects. So traffic calming could be a part of that. But

937
01:23:34,006 --> 01:23:39,081
that would take us going in and amending our street maintenance district to include

938
01:23:39,081 --> 01:23:45,008
improvements and then we would come back with what type of increase in assessments

939
01:23:45,008 --> 01:23:50,036
that we would feel comfortable with to support the projects that council feels um

940
01:23:51,007 --> 01:23:58,038
would benefit the city. So maybe if, if we wanted to do $100,000 worth of

941
01:23:58,064 --> 01:24:03,027
traffic calming or other types of improvements to our streets, we could add that

942
01:24:03,027 --> 01:24:07,071
into the street maintenance district parts of it, and we would kind of line out the

943
01:24:07,071 --> 01:24:12,007
capital projects year by year that those would support. With, without lowering our

944
01:24:12,007 --> 01:24:16,091
existing level of maintenance, that would be our goal as well, this would be above

945
01:24:17,015 --> 01:24:21,072
what kind of the existing street maintenance is, so it would be an improvement that

946
01:24:21,072 --> 01:24:26,071
then would be kinda on top of what our existing programming is for construction,

947
01:24:26,087 --> 01:24:31,055
have a capital list of Projects that we would look at on a yearly basis, dedicate

948
01:24:31,055 --> 01:24:35,035
funding towards that, that would come out of the assessment, which would be citywide.

949
01:24:36,064 --> 01:24:41,059
So would that be a new enterprise fund basically would that I mean we be funding

950
01:24:41,059 --> 01:24:45,046
100,000 and it carries over if we didn't spend that or how we could carry it over,

951
01:24:45,056 --> 01:24:49,023
yeah, you could carry it over. You would just have to identify what projects you'd

952
01:24:49,023 --> 01:24:53,075
be spending those on, which would be street improvements which could include traffic

953
01:24:53,075 --> 01:24:57,078
calming projects or however council wants to set that up. We would bring forward

954
01:24:57,091 --> 01:25:02,088
a couple examples for council to vet that. Do we have an idea on how much? You would

955
01:25:02,088 --> 01:25:09,000
want or we would need to we actually anticipated that we would be asked that. However,

956
01:25:09,029 --> 01:25:12,053
I don't have an example of that because I didn't know if you'd be interested in it.

957
01:25:12,069 --> 01:25:16,052
So if you're interested in it, then we'll come back in the second work session and

958
01:25:16,052 --> 01:25:20,028
we'll provide examples. I guess I'm just shocked that Missoula is only 50,000. Like

959
01:25:20,028 --> 01:25:25,032
it seems very low for these kind of construction projects. And if, if that's an effective

960
01:25:25,032 --> 01:25:29,028
amount of money to be doing projects here, it's very interesting to me because it

961
01:25:29,028 --> 01:25:34,004
doesn't seem like a lot at all. I was also extremely surprised. I would think that

962
01:25:34,004 --> 01:25:40,056
would be like one, right, one curve flare, you know, pretty much. It seems very low.

963
01:25:40,077 --> 01:25:45,002
So that was my question too is along those lines is what, what. How do, how do we,

964
01:25:45,029 --> 01:25:49,029
how did they come to that, and how do we come to our own? Is it, yeah, they've, they've

965
01:25:49,029 --> 01:25:55,096
modified their program a bit to, um, not do as much of the permanent installs. So

966
01:25:55,096 --> 01:25:59,006
they're, so that's why the money goes pretty far, yeah, so they've gone to adding

967
01:25:59,006 --> 01:26:04,008
those, uh, fiberglass delineators for their bulb outs instead of actual bulb outs,

968
01:26:05,025 --> 01:26:10,036
um, and so we're, we're kind of scared of that idea, that concept, just because,

969
01:26:10,053 --> 01:26:15,032
you know, with those few that we have in place. We have a lot of maintenance on and

970
01:26:15,032 --> 01:26:23,028
so that's just a constant um maintenance feature and um and It seems

971
01:26:23,028 --> 01:26:28,047
like they get run over on purpose sometimes and so the effectiveness of it aren't,

972
01:26:29,029 --> 01:26:32,092
you know, those are some of our concerns about that and that's one of the reasons

973
01:26:32,092 --> 01:26:39,047
that I'm not too excited about the, the Bozeman idea of seasonal installs and removals.

974
01:26:39,009 --> 01:26:44,049
Um, so we're just trying to make something that's fairly simple for our staff. It

975
01:26:44,049 --> 01:26:49,033
goes in, it's in, it's something easy to maintain, and it's effective. And did you,

976
01:26:49,046 --> 01:26:52,081
since you use Flagstaff, did you look at how much they, because that didn't come

977
01:26:52,081 --> 01:26:58,053
up in here? I was just curious how much they put out. Um, I, I don't. I don't, I

978
01:26:58,053 --> 01:27:02,089
don't remember. I, I, if I did look at it, I don't recall. We reviewed Flagstaff

979
01:27:02,089 --> 01:27:08,096
standard for, um, implementation of, for new development, not necessarily construction

980
01:27:09,007 --> 01:27:13,073
for existing development. So yeah, we didn't look at Flagstaff for that. It's really

981
01:27:13,073 --> 01:27:17,031
difficult because they just, uh, different states have different funding mechanism

982
01:27:17,034 --> 01:27:25,013
for street maintenance and improvements, so. Sit So, um, my

983
01:27:25,013 --> 01:27:31,024
opinion is that this should be like a flow chart with. 1 through 5 there, right?

984
01:27:32,005 --> 01:27:34,097
Uh, you start at the top, and if that doesn't work, go to the next one. If that doesn't

985
01:27:34,097 --> 01:27:42,015
work, go to the next one. but I will say that general fund and street maintenance.

986
01:27:43,043 --> 01:27:48,008
Probably should be pulled off of this list, and the reason why.

987
01:27:50,016 --> 01:27:56,006
Our top two complaints over traffic speeding are lack of sidewalks, which have no

988
01:27:56,006 --> 01:28:01,087
funding mechanism either. So if you put in traffic calming before you put in sidewalks

989
01:28:01,087 --> 01:28:06,087
in places that don't have sidewalks, you're gonna get, uh, using general funds, you're

990
01:28:06,087 --> 01:28:11,083
gonna get, uh, a lot of people really angry. Same thing with street maintenance.

991
01:28:11,092 --> 01:28:15,055
If you start messing with the street maintenance or increase, even if you increase

992
01:28:15,055 --> 01:28:19,091
it to cover this. People are gonna want that street maintenance to go into street

993
01:28:19,091 --> 01:28:24,071
maintenance because that is, you know, I don't know which one rates higher, the complaints

994
01:28:24,071 --> 01:28:29,043
about sidewalks or the complaints, the complaints about, um, street maintenance that,

995
01:28:29,052 --> 01:28:37,019
that are, I, I think they outweigh what the people might, um, accept. You know,

996
01:28:37,032 --> 01:28:42,031
for traffic calming beating either one of those two things. So that's just where

997
01:28:42,031 --> 01:28:47,011
I'm coming from on this, and this is for we're just talking about the existing streets

998
01:28:47,011 --> 01:28:54,092
right now, um. SID is kind of a surefire way to get this done, at least

999
01:28:55,041 --> 01:29:01,037
partially funded, uh, but realistically, even if you're eligible for a grant, it

1000
01:29:01,037 --> 01:29:04,081
might not cover the cost and you have to go to the next thing, the next thing, uh,

1001
01:29:04,009 --> 01:29:11,041
to, to cover it. So, that's what I'm thinking right now as far as existing, um, streets

1002
01:29:11,041 --> 01:29:16,033
and traffic calming, and I'd love to hear what everybody else has to think of, uh,

1003
01:29:16,005 --> 01:29:22,058
you know, say about that, but seriously, I mean, If we put in a traffic calming measure

1004
01:29:22,058 --> 01:29:27,028
and we don't put in a sidewalk, uh, they're going to be pretty sidewalk. What's that?

1005
01:29:27,039 --> 01:29:28,042
Well, let's put it in the sidewalk.

1006
01:29:30,092 --> 01:29:32,066
Extend the skybuck into the street.

1007
01:29:35,042 --> 01:29:43,038
Um Yeah, I, I'm, I'm OK with that. I think it would be nice if, I mean, there's nowhere

1008
01:29:43,006 --> 01:29:49,039
we're, we're, we're pretty stuck on, um, existing is gonna go in when the ownership

1009
01:29:49,039 --> 01:29:53,099
changes of the parcel that's uh associated with that piece of sidewalk, right? And

1010
01:29:53,099 --> 01:30:00,043
I can understand that, but, um, so sidewalks aren't getting built. Yeah, I would

1011
01:30:00,043 --> 01:30:05,011
agree with your observation there that, um, you know, my, my, the county ditch problem

1012
01:30:05,011 --> 01:30:10,075
that I see that we have 4 Mile, that is part of what's happening on 4 Mile is that

1013
01:30:10,075 --> 01:30:16,005
there's not the pedestrian zones, plus it's straight and narrow and like it's like,

1014
01:30:16,007 --> 01:30:20,006
so I agree with you that like we're not addressing the county ditch problem or that,

1015
01:30:20,024 --> 01:30:24,043
that issue. A, a really good example is Bluestone's on this list, right? Was on,

1016
01:30:24,052 --> 01:30:29,073
on that slide. If you went to Bluestone and asked them, would you rather have a sidewalk?

1017
01:30:30,064 --> 01:30:35,063
Because they have no sidewalks and they have a ditch right now. And that is a heavily

1018
01:30:35,063 --> 01:30:42,055
trafficked school walking road. Um, Or would you want traffic calming? They're gonna

1019
01:30:42,055 --> 01:30:45,055
want them both, but they're gonna want the sidewalks more. They've been complaining

1020
01:30:45,055 --> 01:30:50,059
about that for since the place we needed a rubric for sidewalk. What's that? Do we

1021
01:30:50,059 --> 01:30:54,089
need a rubric for where we need sidewalks and where those are in high demand? I think

1022
01:30:54,096 --> 01:30:59,095
we just necessary, you know, I think that the people of Kalispell would be OK if

1023
01:30:59,095 --> 01:31:07,031
we did set aside a fund for sidewalks specifically, but, um, like I said, they're

1024
01:31:07,031 --> 01:31:15,006
gonna be. More interested in getting those accomplished first, I think. So I, I hear

1025
01:31:15,006 --> 01:31:19,074
what you're saying, and I, I, I think you make a good point. I, one of my comments

1026
01:31:19,074 --> 01:31:23,079
on this was just, uh, one of the things missing from the list of options was the

1027
01:31:23,079 --> 01:31:26,094
voter-approved levy, which we've talked about several times. And we haven't pulled

1028
01:31:26,094 --> 01:31:33,043
the trigger on, um, in all the times we've spoken about it. Um. And so that it may

1029
01:31:33,043 --> 01:31:37,043
not rise to the top of the list just because it's been hard to get agreement and

1030
01:31:37,043 --> 01:31:42,095
get us there. But one of the things that we talked about was pairing traffic calming

1031
01:31:42,095 --> 01:31:50,019
with sidewalks, um, as well for a, a levee. So, um, I, I like that. The idea of pairing

1032
01:31:50,019 --> 01:31:55,047
the two as well, you know, if we set aside general fund money, that it would be traffic

1033
01:31:55,047 --> 01:32:01,043
calming as well as sidewalks. Um, the street maintenance, I, I guess I, so I, I guess

1034
01:32:01,043 --> 01:32:05,063
I, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I come, I actually come out the opposite

1035
01:32:05,063 --> 01:32:11,052
side of it is that I agree that we should kind of have, uh, I'm for all the above

1036
01:32:11,062 --> 01:32:17,073
on these options and kind of a step process like you uh spoke to. Um, but I would

1037
01:32:17,073 --> 01:32:23,034
actually, uh, put, keep the, uh, general fund and the street maintenance in there.

1038
01:32:23,042 --> 01:32:27,069
And I think those are some of the top, you know, would be the top kind of first go

1039
01:32:27,069 --> 01:32:33,061
to options. You know, SID I've I think it's great uh if people, you know, the neighbors,

1040
01:32:33,066 --> 01:32:37,053
the residents want to do that, but the problem with it, of course, is that it requires

1041
01:32:37,053 --> 01:32:43,086
a lot of work on behalf of the residents, a lot of organization. Um, and, uh, kind

1042
01:32:43,086 --> 01:32:49,002
of active civic civic engagement. And so what you're gonna find is very few neighborhoods

1043
01:32:49,002 --> 01:32:52,044
that actually do that, and the ones that do are going to be the wealthier, kind of

1044
01:32:52,044 --> 01:32:57,034
more involved, uh, neighborhoods. And so it's, it's not, I think, the, the, the most

1045
01:32:57,034 --> 01:33:05,004
fair, um, uh, or really The, the path that would result in kind of the, the,

1046
01:33:05,088 --> 01:33:09,099
the best way of, of getting these things done. So, I would keep general fund and

1047
01:33:09,099 --> 01:33:14,015
street maintenance, and I like street maintenance because I think traffic calming

1048
01:33:14,015 --> 01:33:22,015
is, is inherent to, um, you know, maintaining safe streets. Um, and so I

1049
01:33:22,015 --> 01:33:27,059
think the public would get that, that, um, our, the streets is not just filling a

1050
01:33:27,059 --> 01:33:33,061
pothole. It's also making sure that They're safe for our residents to uh use. Yeah,

1051
01:33:33,078 --> 01:33:39,041
and Mr. Mayor, I, I 100% agree with you on the, on the levy. I mean, I, I am always

1052
01:33:39,041 --> 01:33:43,069
for taking it to the people in, in circumstances like this where they're deciding

1053
01:33:43,069 --> 01:33:50,019
on like big chunks of their general fund, um. And, you know, the other thing we can

1054
01:33:50,019 --> 01:33:54,007
look at is what Bozeman did, uh, you know, I'm, I'm flipping back and forth between

1055
01:33:54,007 --> 01:33:58,007
sidewalks, and I, I understand that, but people don't see those as kind of separate

1056
01:33:58,007 --> 01:34:05,095
issues. Um, Bozeman. Went out and and did an uh did an SID for the

1057
01:34:05,095 --> 01:34:10,075
entire city and includes sidewalks. That's why the sidewalks are so good in Bozeman,

1058
01:34:11,032 --> 01:34:17,047
right? Um, now that was a voter approved thing as well, right? So either one of those

1059
01:34:17,047 --> 01:34:22,009
options totally for, in fact, I would put them above right below grant eligibility

1060
01:34:22,009 --> 01:34:28,049
right there and then if we're gonna keep. Street maintenance and general fund in

1061
01:34:28,049 --> 01:34:33,013
there. Let's put SID above general fund so that we can try that first because if

1062
01:34:33,013 --> 01:34:37,064
the, if the neighbor is gonna bite off, it's more of a sure thing for them than us

1063
01:34:37,009 --> 01:34:44,092
continuing to try to figure out funding. And we can use the general fund stuff if,

1064
01:34:44,096 --> 01:34:49,051
if we're gonna set aside that for the streets that probably aren't gonna have the

1065
01:34:49,051 --> 01:34:53,087
neighbors that are OK with being taxed because it might be a lower income area or

1066
01:34:53,087 --> 01:34:54,031
whatever.

1067
01:34:57,019 --> 01:35:00,082
I guess a question to consider is, do you want to create a program or not, because

1068
01:35:00,082 --> 01:35:06,046
a lot of the scenarios just continue to leave it out there and maybe land. No, I

1069
01:35:06,046 --> 01:35:10,017
have no problem you're talking about doesn't build anything unless you know what

1070
01:35:10,017 --> 01:35:13,013
I'm saying, so I guess that's something the council needs to consider if you want

1071
01:35:13,013 --> 01:35:20,053
to tackle the complaints. A street maintenance Assessment Would do that.

1072
01:35:21,042 --> 01:35:24,029
OK, that's the only one you're actually gonna be able to fund the program. General

1073
01:35:24,029 --> 01:35:28,004
fund is not gonna fund the program at all. I mean, like Missoula's budget is much

1074
01:35:28,046 --> 01:35:33,005
larger than us, and they put 50,000 to which that's not gonna do anything. So I don't

1075
01:35:33,005 --> 01:35:36,097
want there to be an expectation of using general fund because it's limited, it changes

1076
01:35:36,097 --> 01:35:40,002
every year based off of the needs, and you're not gonna be able to create a program

1077
01:35:40,022 --> 01:35:45,035
off of that. That's why even when we had the sidewalk conversation, it was essentially

1078
01:35:45,035 --> 01:35:49,051
creating a new district or assessment just for sidewalks. The reality is we've already

1079
01:35:49,051 --> 01:35:54,059
got a street maintenance one and by state law we can include improvements to that

1080
01:35:54,059 --> 01:35:59,063
which would include traffic calming. We can include sidewalks into that. So we're

1081
01:35:59,063 --> 01:36:04,089
kind of deciphering if we're, it's very easy to get sidetracked, you know, we had,

1082
01:36:05,008 --> 01:36:12,046
so we could, you absolutely could do a levy, but that's gonna. Be a whole other animal,

1083
01:36:12,071 --> 01:36:18,002
um. I think with new construction, there's that part of it with associated with traffic

1084
01:36:18,002 --> 01:36:25,044
studies, but if, if council really wants to tackle the complaints. Really that whether

1085
01:36:25,044 --> 01:36:29,066
it's a grant, which is questionable, TI has to be in the district and there has to

1086
01:36:29,066 --> 01:36:35,052
be funding. There has to be a need to which we use the same rubric, but um in SID.

1087
01:36:36,073 --> 01:36:40,092
It is relatively easy to do if the community wants it, and that's why I think Billings,

1088
01:36:40,097 --> 01:36:44,092
I believe, takes that route all the time. It's like, hey, if there's an existing

1089
01:36:44,092 --> 01:36:49,088
neighborhood and they've got an issue, that's the route. If you want to make it all

1090
01:36:49,088 --> 01:36:53,099
more equitable across the city, the, the street maintenance assessment is the only

1091
01:36:53,099 --> 01:36:59,016
way to do it. I mean, that's just one of the reasons I'm saying to put this SID above

1092
01:36:59,016 --> 01:37:05,036
that is because if, um, if you went out to a vote citywide with every single one

1093
01:37:05,036 --> 01:37:10,004
of these, right. The people around the problem are all gonna say yes, we want that

1094
01:37:10,004 --> 01:37:15,076
and everybody else that uses that street is gonna say no, right? So, it, it, it's

1095
01:37:15,076 --> 01:37:21,092
very subjective, but this gets around that problem by the, you know, the, the people

1096
01:37:21,092 --> 01:37:27,035
surrounding the, the problem area. If they want to step up and do an SID totally

1097
01:37:27,056 --> 01:37:32,000
great. I mean, at least that's a funding source. I don't know if we can start a program.

1098
01:37:33,012 --> 01:37:38,004
With any of these really. None of these are sure things except the street maintenance

1099
01:37:38,004 --> 01:37:44,003
thing which we're talking about raising an assessment, applying a fee. That's why

1100
01:37:44,003 --> 01:37:47,059
it's in there and that's why it's council discussion. But yes, it absolutely will

1101
01:37:47,059 --> 01:37:51,055
increase the assessment. There is a question by how much, how much does the city

1102
01:37:51,055 --> 01:37:56,051
want. Does this council even want to explore that idea, what would a program even

1103
01:37:56,051 --> 01:37:59,087
look like, you know, is it a million dollars a year, and a million dollars a year

1104
01:37:59,087 --> 01:38:04,095
is gonna do how much, or is it $500,000 a year, you know, we can kind of start to

1105
01:38:04,095 --> 01:38:09,062
look at that and present that to council what that would look like, um, and it is

1106
01:38:09,076 --> 01:38:13,051
just the general as the mayor stated, you know, whether you wanna just,

1107
01:38:15,064 --> 01:38:20,068
Leave the, leave the solution up to that neighborhood or that street, or if it's

1108
01:38:20,068 --> 01:38:25,039
more a citywide issue that should be looked at by the, the city population as a whole,

1109
01:38:25,041 --> 01:38:31,067
which is when, when the assessment would play into it. And again, I would just observe

1110
01:38:32,021 --> 01:38:38,072
billings being 100,000 people. I mean, the SEID approach works as well because it's

1111
01:38:38,072 --> 01:38:43,024
so sprawled that something that might be happening over Zimmerman Trail versus Poly

1112
01:38:43,024 --> 01:38:48,068
Drive and, and Billings. Like there's different neighborhoods, one large enough they

1113
01:38:48,068 --> 01:38:53,066
could be the size of the city. Of Cali spell to pull together an SCD, but like there's

1114
01:38:53,066 --> 01:38:57,085
different, it's hard. I can see how one that is the option that they're looking at

1115
01:38:57,085 --> 01:39:01,054
just because of the sprawl of buildings, but then they also have the population that

1116
01:39:01,054 --> 01:39:09,046
could make an SID. Work Sure, and you know, Missoula is bigger than us

1117
01:39:09,076 --> 01:39:16,034
and they allocated 50,000, right? Uh, what could we realistically do with 50,000?

1118
01:39:16,092 --> 01:39:20,089
Well, and I, I mean, I would agree that what we end up seeing is more of those temporary.

1119
01:39:21,063 --> 01:39:26,019
Well, we could probably do like the, the, a center island, the bull bouts, maybe

1120
01:39:26,019 --> 01:39:31,087
some, um, table tops. So I, I, I mean, I think there are some projects that we could

1121
01:39:31,087 --> 01:39:36,059
accomplish with. You know, 50,000, we're not gonna get them all, you know, it's gonna

1122
01:39:36,059 --> 01:39:41,008
take several years to, that's why we have the prioritization list and maybe we do

1123
01:39:41,008 --> 01:39:46,025
one bigger project the first year and several the next year based off the prioritization.

1124
01:39:46,068 --> 01:39:51,047
Obviously when we, when we go through the rubric, 4 mile drive obviously pops to

1125
01:39:51,047 --> 01:39:57,051
the top. So our focus would be 4 mile drive, um, in providing the appropriate traffic

1126
01:39:57,051 --> 01:40:03,006
calming through that corridor. Um, could we do that one for 50,000. There's a high

1127
01:40:03,006 --> 01:40:08,096
potential we probably could. So, so I mean if that's how we wanna do it then then

1128
01:40:08,096 --> 01:40:15,007
yes and if we had extra if it did cost us 35,000 and there was a priority number

1129
01:40:15,007 --> 01:40:20,071
2 and we could get it to fit in, then we would try to fit that in, um, so I, I think

1130
01:40:20,093 --> 01:40:26,071
the program itself will, will probably learn as we go and we can make some changes

1131
01:40:26,071 --> 01:40:31,086
and decisions on how if, if we use the street maintenance improvement district funding.

1132
01:40:32,029 --> 01:40:37,072
You know, um, we, we could review it every year to see what that would mean for residents

1133
01:40:37,072 --> 01:40:42,048
as far as assessments too. Well, one of, one of the things I don't like about the

1134
01:40:42,048 --> 01:40:46,075
street maintenance thing, I mean, I understand that the funding mechanism for sure,

1135
01:40:47,037 --> 01:40:52,008
but in all of these other cases where we're talking about like, um, you know, if

1136
01:40:52,008 --> 01:40:55,092
we were talking about a levy or whatever, the, the, the people would be voting for

1137
01:40:55,092 --> 01:41:01,052
it, we could administratively put through. Changes to our policy with the street

1138
01:41:01,052 --> 01:41:03,008
maintenance thing, we still have to have a public um

1139
01:41:05,042 --> 01:41:09,065
Whatever I'm losing the word you still have to go through you still have to do that,

1140
01:41:09,077 --> 01:41:15,016
but it's not the same as people, you know, if they, if, if it's on like the ballot,

1141
01:41:15,059 --> 01:41:19,077
everybody knows about it. If we do it here, everybody knows about it 3 weeks after

1142
01:41:19,077 --> 01:41:26,003
it's done, and then they get mad. Right, that that's the reality. You're not. I would

1143
01:41:26,003 --> 01:41:32,005
just, I, I would just note that, I mean, if we're talking about being able to complete,

1144
01:41:32,068 --> 01:41:39,027
you know, project on one of our high priority, you know, 4 mile for 50,000, if we,

1145
01:41:39,051 --> 01:41:46,002
you know, did an increase on The street maintenance, you know, citywide, it wouldn't

1146
01:41:46,002 --> 01:41:52,073
take. It it wouldn't be that much of an increase to get enough funding to make some

1147
01:41:52,073 --> 01:41:58,091
real progress on a year to year basis. So, um, You know, I obviously the concern

1148
01:41:58,093 --> 01:42:05,077
is you're raising rates that impact people's uh pocketbook, but, you know, it We're,

1149
01:42:05,009 --> 01:42:10,013
the numbers were tired. I mean, that's where we, we have to see kind of more of an

1150
01:42:10,013 --> 01:42:15,081
example of, of how far the dollars will go looking at our top priorities. But personally,

1151
01:42:15,086 --> 01:42:20,069
I think street maintenance makes sense. Uh, I would, I would be a, a, a vote in favor

1152
01:42:20,069 --> 01:42:24,097
of moving in that direction. Again, I, I still think it makes sense to have all of

1153
01:42:24,097 --> 01:42:29,089
the above because if, if you can save on the street maintenance to do a TIFF in a

1154
01:42:29,089 --> 01:42:34,052
TIFF district or somebody comes forward and wants to do the SID. That just means

1155
01:42:34,052 --> 01:42:38,044
more money in those, uh, street maintenance to go somewhere else and do something

1156
01:42:38,044 --> 01:42:43,013
else. So you should have kind of all options on the table. But, uh, I certainly think

1157
01:42:43,013 --> 01:42:48,008
a street maintenance district to have a program that's annual, we know where the

1158
01:42:48,008 --> 01:42:54,013
funding's coming from. Um, it's consistent and we're tackling these on a, on a year

1159
01:42:54,013 --> 01:42:58,077
to year basis, making real progress, and it sounds like the numbers are, are not

1160
01:42:58,077 --> 01:43:03,046
going to be so significant that, uh, you know, it'd be, uh, you wouldn't have to

1161
01:43:03,046 --> 01:43:07,094
raise that street maintenance district by, by a lot to have an impact. Yeah, and,

1162
01:43:08,006 --> 01:43:13,083
and you're, you're correct, Mr. Mayor, but the, the other issue is, um, this is all

1163
01:43:14,001 --> 01:43:19,076
a cumulative, right? So we have A new assessment or a higher assessment for the street

1164
01:43:19,076 --> 01:43:25,052
maintenance improvement. Um, we have higher sewer and water rates, we have, you know,

1165
01:43:25,061 --> 01:43:31,064
stormwater assessments, we, uh, you know, the, the, it, it just, it's all like little

1166
01:43:31,064 --> 01:43:35,008
tiny pieces and if you microscope down on the one thing, yeah, that sounds reasonable

1167
01:43:35,008 --> 01:43:39,072
for this price, right? But you have to add all of that stuff in and see what we're

1168
01:43:39,072 --> 01:43:45,076
doing to people that are on a, like a fixed income, right? Um, it I, I, you know,

1169
01:43:46,021 --> 01:43:50,052
I'm looking for, I'm looking careful, but you gotta be careful for sure. But I mean

1170
01:43:50,052 --> 01:43:53,079
if you go too far with that, you'll never spend anything, right? You'll never do

1171
01:43:53,081 --> 01:43:55,073
anything. I'm all for that.

1172
01:43:58,025 --> 01:44:01,074
I mean if you don't want fire, if you don't want roads, if you don't want police,

1173
01:44:01,083 --> 01:44:03,024
that's fine, right? We can,

1174
01:44:05,095 --> 01:44:12,014
I mean, that's where 80% of the budget goes. So I got you. So personally, I mean,

1175
01:44:12,019 --> 01:44:15,062
I, I guess I mean I agree that I can see where it fits into the street maintenance.

1176
01:44:15,071 --> 01:44:19,018
You raise an issue which I think is important to me, which is the sidewalk side of

1177
01:44:19,018 --> 01:44:24,062
things, um, because I do and thank you for just Elevating that because I do think

1178
01:44:24,062 --> 01:44:31,098
that that's sort of the other conversation that I, I hear is goes between. Traffic

1179
01:44:31,098 --> 01:44:38,017
calming, wanted to see slower traffic and sidewalks. Um, and this is the same conversation

1180
01:44:38,017 --> 01:44:43,028
that we had years ago of like when I wanted to see, um, Impact fees be able to be

1181
01:44:43,028 --> 01:44:46,096
used for sidewalks and it just doesn't work out that way because it's not penciled

1182
01:44:46,096 --> 01:44:50,052
out that way because it's about traffic and it was about new development. So in,

1183
01:44:50,077 --> 01:44:55,019
uh, so I see where we would go with street maintenance and seeing like what the nominal

1184
01:44:55,053 --> 01:45:00,088
50,000 a year might look like, but I also would look at exploring what a levy would

1185
01:45:00,088 --> 01:45:08,044
look like for calm traffic calming and sidewalks just because I do agree, you put

1186
01:45:08,044 --> 01:45:12,075
that to the voters. And I think that that is a concern I hear on a regular basis.

1187
01:45:13,055 --> 01:45:19,018
Is Mr. Dowd, as you said, it's the sidewalk side of things because, and again, that's

1188
01:45:19,018 --> 01:45:24,044
4 Mile. I mean, 4 Mile is. Is it a traffic calming problem or is it the fact that

1189
01:45:24,044 --> 01:45:29,008
it doesn't have sidewalks? Is, is, is just one of those challenges over there that

1190
01:45:29,008 --> 01:45:33,021
I, that I've heard and watched. Right, I mean, we're we're trying to keep

1191
01:45:35,053 --> 01:45:40,076
4 mile days connected by, that's why we just got the TA grant and it's all connected

1192
01:45:40,076 --> 01:45:45,096
and it's all in there, so just so you're aware, there are sidewalks on 4 mile's awesome

1193
01:45:46,005 --> 01:45:49,002
to see how we've been able to work on that, but again it's just sort of see that

1194
01:45:49,005 --> 01:45:55,015
that's just one of those. I hear that same thing that Mr. Dowd raised up, which is.

1195
01:45:56,038 --> 01:46:01,084
Traffic calming and sidewalks and you highlighted the fact that we're not talking

1196
01:46:01,086 --> 01:46:06,025
about sidewalks. Maybe the fun could be both things. That's what I'm saying, and

1197
01:46:06,025 --> 01:46:10,048
I would love to see it. We don't have to fix all this in a year, right? Or even 2

1198
01:46:10,005 --> 01:46:14,056
or 5, right? Like if we can just start some incremental progress and start making.

1199
01:46:15,007 --> 01:46:19,069
You know, baby steps towards this, I think you'll see some more public support that

1200
01:46:19,083 --> 01:46:22,093
their funds are going towards things that they can see, right, that they can actually

1201
01:46:22,095 --> 01:46:27,022
use and they can do. We don't need to fix it all in one day. No, of course this is

1202
01:46:27,022 --> 01:46:31,057
an incremental year by year thing and we're just making progress to hit small, right?

1203
01:46:31,066 --> 01:46:39,008
Um, yeah, and I'm all, I love the rubric. I love seeing the top two there. Obviously,

1204
01:46:39,013 --> 01:46:44,059
those are the top two that we need to attack first. Um, but I think both of those

1205
01:46:44,059 --> 01:46:49,067
were also a sidewalk concern. Uh, I don't know if they, I think 4 miles pretty much

1206
01:46:49,067 --> 01:46:57,038
there, but um, Uh, it's still, you know, I, I, I, the raised crosswalks will do a

1207
01:46:57,038 --> 01:47:03,059
lot for that as well. Um, anyway. I don't wanna keep going. I think we're on the

1208
01:47:03,059 --> 01:47:07,006
right track here. I just, I'm, I'm pretty resistant to the street maintenance increase

1209
01:47:07,006 --> 01:47:11,014
just because I, I, I know that we're hitting people left and right and the economy

1210
01:47:11,002 --> 01:47:17,028
is not getting better. And by the way, if gas and lithium prices keep going up, none

1211
01:47:17,028 --> 01:47:21,004
of this is a problem anyway. Nobody's going to be driving anywhere. That's why we're

1212
01:47:21,004 --> 01:47:22,019
going to need sidewalks.

1213
01:47:25,017 --> 01:47:26,018
We'll still need those.

1214
01:47:31,023 --> 01:47:37,002
All right. I would say too, um, we do have some fairly recent costs on Four-Mile

1215
01:47:37,002 --> 01:47:42,071
Drive. We, we looked at doing a raised crosswalk at that cross section or the crosswalk

1216
01:47:42,091 --> 01:47:46,009
on Four-Mile Drive and we didn't have the funds and the TA grant to move forward

1217
01:47:46,011 --> 01:47:51,099
with it. Um, but we did have a bid, so I, I can provide that to council as a, a cost.

1218
01:47:52,011 --> 01:47:57,056
My, my recollection was like $40,000 or something, um, so it was a significant cost,

1219
01:47:57,099 --> 01:48:03,049
um, and I think when we looked at East Oregon Street when we were considering, uh,

1220
01:48:03,063 --> 01:48:11,046
um. Traffic circle, which the residents hate, by the way, um, that was $20,000.05

1221
01:48:11,046 --> 01:48:16,001
years ago. So, uh, you know, since that time we've seen some significant increases

1222
01:48:16,001 --> 01:48:21,075
in construction costs at least 50 now. I was gonna say triple. I think too as we

1223
01:48:21,075 --> 01:48:27,074
discuss some of this, because the, the selection of the traffic calming treatment

1224
01:48:27,074 --> 01:48:33,033
is important to the surrounding neighborhood, we still Appreciate the, the thresholds

1225
01:48:33,033 --> 01:48:38,001
where we get their concurrence and what after it's engineered cause we really do

1226
01:48:38,001 --> 01:48:42,072
want their buy-in uh on the traffic calming that we select and want to move forward

1227
01:48:42,074 --> 01:48:48,038
with. So I think those part of the process are really still very valuable to this

1228
01:48:48,006 --> 01:48:55,055
whole policy. I, I, I, I think it's, it, it's important when we can get it. But as

1229
01:48:55,075 --> 01:49:01,005
uh Mr. Walker pointed out, I, I, we don't do that with other things. Like when we

1230
01:49:01,005 --> 01:49:06,006
know, we have data and we have, um, you know, the expertise to know that something's

1231
01:49:06,006 --> 01:49:10,002
going to be effective and it's going to solve a problem in our community. Uh, we

1232
01:49:10,002 --> 01:49:15,046
don't, we don't take a poll and, and see if the public, you know, is, is, supports

1233
01:49:15,046 --> 01:49:20,078
that we, you know, move forward with our expertise and our, and the data. Uh, what,

1234
01:49:20,008 --> 01:49:27,044
and so I, I would. I, I understand with the SID that's what we need to do. Um, and

1235
01:49:27,044 --> 01:49:33,057
I understand that that's ideal, but I would not want to, uh, not make safety improvements

1236
01:49:33,057 --> 01:49:39,004
that would save lives or save, prevent injuries because the public doesn't understand,

1237
01:49:39,078 --> 01:49:45,022
hasn't seen the data and doesn't have the expertise. I understand, but also sounds

1238
01:49:45,022 --> 01:49:48,094
like, hey, we know what's better for you. Yeah, so I, I believe that is a very important

1239
01:49:48,094 --> 01:49:53,039
discussion, and if that is the consensus and the direction of council, more than

1240
01:49:53,039 --> 01:49:56,082
happy to implement that. I'm just gonna need that direction from council.

1241
01:50:00,027 --> 01:50:06,002
Yeah, I'd like to see all of what what all of this means like what would the increase

1242
01:50:06,002 --> 01:50:10,000
in the in the maintenance fee be that kind of thing that those are yep yep I have

1243
01:50:10,003 --> 01:50:12,053
those takeaways to bring back for the next work session.

1244
01:50:14,079 --> 01:50:20,096
I think what Suzie was asking in regards to staff. Whether we would solicit public

1245
01:50:20,096 --> 01:50:26,016
input or not on a decision that staff was making outside of funding, I mean, it should

1246
01:50:26,016 --> 01:50:31,059
be solicited, sure, I just think if there's an overwhelming evidence that, you know,

1247
01:50:31,077 --> 01:50:35,025
something needs to be done. That it should be done.

1248
01:50:37,085 --> 01:50:43,046
Shouldn't our communications manager do that, right, right. I mean, it's unfortunate,

1249
01:50:43,051 --> 01:50:47,089
but you know it's, it is, it's like we need, you know, if we need new water line

1250
01:50:47,089 --> 01:50:52,042
because it's poisoning us like if you, you like the sweet taste of your water just

1251
01:50:52,042 --> 01:50:58,091
because of the lead, you can't keep it right like. We make those decisions all the

1252
01:50:58,091 --> 01:51:04,002
time and so there has to be. A threshold, I feel like if, if there is data that says

1253
01:51:04,002 --> 01:51:08,003
this is dangerous and it needs to be fixed, we need to be able to fix it regardless.

1254
01:51:08,087 --> 01:51:13,069
We wouldn't have a single roundabout in our community if we sought public support

1255
01:51:13,069 --> 01:51:19,006
before doing a roundabout, even though the data on roundabouts is unambiguous, it's

1256
01:51:19,006 --> 01:51:26,008
solid, you know, so. Though I, I appreciate where this is really community

1257
01:51:26,008 --> 01:51:32,004
driven as as suggestions, cause when I've seen problems, my neighbors know what.

1258
01:51:33,002 --> 01:51:38,006
The problem streets are, I mean, I think in sort of honestly relieving staff of having

1259
01:51:38,006 --> 01:51:42,076
that responsibility of being like that neighbor, that that intersection looks dangerous

1260
01:51:42,076 --> 01:51:48,059
without there being public feedback. I have neighbors who are concerned about different

1261
01:51:48,093 --> 01:51:54,028
um intersections in my neighborhood. Um, I think the thresholds really help address

1262
01:51:54,028 --> 01:51:57,076
some of those issues cause like I think that's also really important cause I have

1263
01:51:57,076 --> 01:52:03,032
one neighbor who would put a stop sign at every intersection if they could. Um, but

1264
01:52:03,032 --> 01:52:07,087
I don't think that that would be reasonable, but definitely when one of those intersections

1265
01:52:07,087 --> 01:52:12,051
had an accident in it, I became a little bit more aware of what that complaint was

1266
01:52:12,051 --> 01:52:18,092
plus I've now seen an accident happening there. So it was reinforced. What was somebody

1267
01:52:18,092 --> 01:52:25,024
was observing to also just much more empirical evidence where I sure and you know,

1268
01:52:25,041 --> 01:52:30,055
to, to that point, this is gonna be really hard for staff. I understand that because

1269
01:52:30,073 --> 01:52:36,006
you do one thing and it might partially solve another thing or might make it worse.

1270
01:52:36,071 --> 01:52:42,077
Like my guess is that if we get the funding for the south side of Main Street roundabout

1271
01:52:42,088 --> 01:52:49,026
on on 11th, if we put that in, it's probably going to become. A deterrent for some

1272
01:52:49,026 --> 01:52:52,058
people, they'll go, well, I can either take the bypass and go through roundabouts

1273
01:52:52,058 --> 01:52:56,076
or I could go down Main Street and do roundabouts, so which one is gonna be faster,

1274
01:52:57,015 --> 01:53:03,026
right? Um, so it might cause a decision point where people go down Main less, which

1275
01:53:03,026 --> 01:53:08,085
might alleviate some of the speeding, uh, complaints on First East. We don't know.

1276
01:53:09,019 --> 01:53:14,005
And if the speeding complaints about First East are being exacerbated by, uh, Friday

1277
01:53:14,005 --> 01:53:18,076
night cruising. And put that roundabout in and they can just go around the roundabout

1278
01:53:18,076 --> 01:53:22,044
instead of going on the side street and, and speeding. Well, you know, a lot of these

1279
01:53:22,046 --> 01:53:26,013
little things are going to affect each other and I, I don't even know how you guys

1280
01:53:26,013 --> 01:53:32,065
do it over there. Um, it's complicated. Again, I think that's where the rubrics really

1281
01:53:32,065 --> 01:53:37,092
helps because again, your example really raised up something which we all know. And

1282
01:53:37,092 --> 01:53:42,016
that's been my experience, like I was over in Walla Walla recently, where they have

1283
01:53:42,016 --> 01:53:46,052
a lot of roundabouts, and I sort of asked one of the people there, like, how did

1284
01:53:46,052 --> 01:53:50,036
you end up with so many roundabouts that are not very popular in Kalispell, and there's

1285
01:53:50,036 --> 01:53:54,056
like, well, we started with the right ones. Then that was, that was sort of their

1286
01:53:54,056 --> 01:54:00,068
examples like the spaces that they. Picked were really elevated. The rubrics seemed

1287
01:54:00,068 --> 01:54:05,021
to like identify where that would be the right solution, and then the community got

1288
01:54:05,021 --> 01:54:12,035
more accepting of that change. So I like the fact that we have the rubrics in just

1289
01:54:12,037 --> 01:54:17,082
the general direction that we're going with that. We'll talk about that again. We'll

1290
01:54:17,082 --> 01:54:24,005
talk about this again, Mr. Council President, just as a heads up, I have about 10-15

1291
01:54:24,007 --> 01:54:29,054
minutes and then I'm gonna have to go pick up my kid, um, so I, you know, there we

1292
01:54:29,054 --> 01:54:33,058
are. What we really need, I, I think we have the go-ahead for staff to, to drive

1293
01:54:33,058 --> 01:54:39,032
on with. Yeah, do we have more questions, presentations? Yeah, just a few more. OK,

1294
01:54:39,067 --> 01:54:42,002
let's go through a couple of those, and I definitely want to make sure that we have

1295
01:54:42,002 --> 01:54:46,065
a little bit of time for public comment. Yeah, we, uh, I have a lot to say about

1296
01:54:46,087 --> 01:54:53,007
the New construction piece of this, um, and that might be a work session in and of

1297
01:54:53,007 --> 01:54:59,084
itself actually well um are here tonight I well for a little while we're here tonight

1298
01:54:59,098 --> 01:55:06,075
councilman Dowd I, you know, I mean. We're here, the discussion's happening, so I

1299
01:55:06,075 --> 01:55:11,015
would suggest if you want to comment on it because like I said, we're going into

1300
01:55:11,015 --> 01:55:14,059
the next, we've got a lot of work sessions, a lot of meetings coming up. It's hard

1301
01:55:14,059 --> 01:55:18,055
to get things on the schedule. So, with that being said, coming back, we'll look

1302
01:55:18,055 --> 01:55:24,021
at more funding options, but if If there's some concerns, I would certainly, you

1303
01:55:24,021 --> 01:55:28,005
know, put that out there because like I said, it's not easy to get these meetings

1304
01:55:28,005 --> 01:55:31,009
scheduled and with staff time and stuff because that's the next thing we're going

1305
01:55:31,009 --> 01:55:35,071
into fine if it's like gonna be a half an hour from now, probably not.

1306
01:55:38,001 --> 01:55:43,089
I mean we got uh 3 slides till the questions at the end or we could just take it

1307
01:55:43,089 --> 01:55:51,022
now. OK, so I'll just go through this quick. Um, for the stakeholder, um, participants,

1308
01:55:51,039 --> 01:55:55,014
we, we think that this would be important, uh, as part of our process. We don't want

1309
01:55:55,014 --> 01:56:00,086
to bring you a policy that only public works is read. Um, so, between the 2nd and

1310
01:56:00,086 --> 01:56:04,005
3rd work sessions, we'd like to take a draft out to people who will use it, implement

1311
01:56:04,005 --> 01:56:08,007
it and design to it and be affected by it. And we think that should be made by residents

1312
01:56:08,007 --> 01:56:13,058
and neighborhood representatives as, as one, stakeholder group because they'll file

1313
01:56:13,058 --> 01:56:17,009
the requests and live with what gets built. We have some residents in this room,

1314
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:21,091
um, that we currently communicate with on traffic calming that would provide a great

1315
01:56:21,091 --> 01:56:27,072
perspective. Um, developers and consulting engineers because new development chapter

1316
01:56:27,072 --> 01:56:32,024
changes what they have to design and along the same lines, planning staff because

1317
01:56:32,024 --> 01:56:36,082
subdivision and site plan reviews where requirements land for new development. Our

1318
01:56:36,082 --> 01:56:40,042
own public works maintenance and engineering staff because they plow, sweep, and

1319
01:56:40,042 --> 01:56:45,002
maintain and design the devices that are put in. Um, police and fire because they

1320
01:56:45,002 --> 01:56:48,098
have power in the decision of preferred alternatives, um, so they ought to see it

1321
01:56:48,098 --> 01:56:55,002
before it's final. Um, the questions to the right are what we would anticipate as

1322
01:56:55,002 --> 01:56:58,098
providing to the stakeholder group unless you have additional, and then we would

1323
01:56:58,098 --> 01:57:01,095
summarize what we hear and bring those back to you as recommendations.

1324
01:57:04,056 --> 01:57:09,027
And here's the process we're proposing. Tonight is step one, the kickoff. Um, step

1325
01:57:09,027 --> 01:57:13,039
2 is a second work session where we would come back with revisions and work through

1326
01:57:13,039 --> 01:57:18,043
the questions that are still open, eligibility, thresholds, prioritization, neighborhood

1327
01:57:18,043 --> 01:57:22,043
support requirement, what treatments we allow, the funding framework, how we handle

1328
01:57:22,043 --> 01:57:26,051
new development, how much authority you want to delegate to staff. We'd anticipate

1329
01:57:26,051 --> 01:57:31,019
this meeting to occur in about a month. That's what I was hoping for. I was going

1330
01:57:31,019 --> 01:57:35,063
through this with Suzie, she said, I'm being optimistic. So I, I was thinking 1st

1331
01:57:35,063 --> 01:57:40,047
or 2nd meeting in November, potentially. Uh, step 3 is stakeholder review which I

1332
01:57:40,047 --> 01:57:46,011
just covered. My thought was this could potentially occur through December. Uh, step

1333
01:57:46,011 --> 01:57:50,034
4 is a third work session where we bring back, uh, what stakeholders said and what

1334
01:57:50,044 --> 01:57:54,031
changed because of it and confirm the funding framework and how funding, uh, how

1335
01:57:54,031 --> 01:58:00,009
traffic calming projects would compete in the annual budget process. And this would

1336
01:58:00,009 --> 01:58:05,001
be good to get settled before we go through the annual budgeting process. So, my

1337
01:58:05,001 --> 01:58:12,017
thought was, uh, shooting for January. Step 55 is public review, notice, um, an opportunity

1338
01:58:12,017 --> 01:58:16,077
for written comment and the draft available to anyone who wants it. Um, my thought

1339
01:58:16,077 --> 01:58:21,081
was that would take us through February. Step 6 is adoption by resolution, and that's

1340
01:58:21,081 --> 01:58:25,025
where the street maintenance district ordinance update would also come forward if

1341
01:58:25,025 --> 01:58:30,024
that's the direction you want to go, maybe sometime in March. Um, step 7 is ours,

1342
01:58:30,026 --> 01:58:33,096
and that's application forms, tracking data collection procedures, scoring process,

1343
01:58:34,013 --> 01:58:39,008
neighborhood notification materials, uh, all that stuff. Uh, most of, if not all

1344
01:58:39,008 --> 01:58:42,002
of those items we would be doing concurrently with the other steps.

1345
01:58:44,003 --> 01:58:51,082
Um, here's the 6 main questions for council and, um, and, you know,

1346
01:58:52,047 --> 01:58:58,046
updates to city standards, that really is the, that's number 6, but that's really

1347
01:58:58,046 --> 01:59:03,082
the, uh, development question. So, if we want to start there. Um, does council agree

1348
01:59:03,082 --> 01:59:07,009
with the approach staff proposes to include traffic calming requirements in new development?

1349
01:59:08,007 --> 01:59:11,066
Um, and if so, standards need to be updated.

1350
01:59:14,097 --> 01:59:15,007
Go ahead, Mr. Duff.

1351
01:59:18,048 --> 01:59:24,035
All right. So, um, when I'm looking at the construction standards, the pedestrian

1352
01:59:24,035 --> 01:59:30,051
generator piece of that, um, The features that we really like that developers put

1353
01:59:30,051 --> 01:59:37,005
into projects. Are the features that trigger the need for traffic calming, which

1354
01:59:37,005 --> 01:59:42,053
triggers the need for developers to pay more, so it might actually end up having

1355
01:59:42,053 --> 01:59:49,059
less of the features that we like because of that, um. Uh, you know, all of, all

1356
01:59:49,059 --> 01:59:56,053
of this, uh, you know, is going to raise the cost of a unit in that development.

1357
01:59:57,004 --> 02:00:03,075
And we are pulling out of the housing crisis, but we are still in it. Um, and I think

1358
02:00:03,075 --> 02:00:10,059
it would be Pretty, pretty sad of us to keep piling on costs and kind of combating

1359
02:00:11,007 --> 02:00:18,076
the affordability of housing, um, right now. Um, Destiny Lane was one of your

1360
02:00:19,031 --> 02:00:26,074
examples. So Destiny Lane by the criteria, if that was gonna be in put into a new

1361
02:00:26,074 --> 02:00:31,046
development would, would trigger a couple of those traffic calming because the streets

1362
02:00:31,046 --> 02:00:36,098
so long. But the reality of it is it's a local street only. There's no through traffic

1363
02:00:36,098 --> 02:00:44,091
there yet. And uh the traffic there is really, really not an issue today. Uh,

1364
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:48,051
now, it might be in the future, who knows how it's gonna develop out. There might

1365
02:00:48,051 --> 02:00:54,027
be a crossover between in the between the bypass and there, who knows? Um, things

1366
02:00:54,027 --> 02:01:00,001
could change in the future, but if we Did it a lot of these, I mean, we're gonna,

1367
02:01:00,019 --> 02:01:05,098
we're looking at increasing the cost of a development by quite a bit for putting

1368
02:01:05,098 --> 02:01:12,001
all of these automatic generators in there, um, if they're, you know, I, I like.

1369
02:01:12,091 --> 02:01:18,076
The word may be instead of shall be or will not. Um, it should be kind of a judgment

1370
02:01:18,076 --> 02:01:24,015
call. If we see, hey, this is going to end up connecting two parts of the city that

1371
02:01:24,015 --> 02:01:29,036
are really rough to get to, so we expect this to become a through street for a lot

1372
02:01:29,036 --> 02:01:34,084
of people. Yes, that probably would kick off some of this, but like Destiny Lane,

1373
02:01:35,037 --> 02:01:42,008
until that becomes the issue there, by design, it wasn't a problem when it was designed.

1374
02:01:43,003 --> 02:01:48,061
Um, Mr. Dow, can I ask you a question? Because I'm thinking of your statement that

1375
02:01:48,061 --> 02:01:53,092
if we don't do it, then later it becomes an issue and then. We end up paying for

1376
02:01:53,092 --> 02:01:59,044
it, which I know is a challenge, but I was wondering how you balance that. I, I balance

1377
02:01:59,044 --> 02:02:04,006
it completely. So my number one reason that I'm on council for this, this, this term

1378
02:02:04,095 --> 02:02:11,096
is to make sure that we are not raising the price of housing on council here, um,

1379
02:02:12,035 --> 02:02:15,004
and, and we all said that when we were campaigning, right? But don't we also, if

1380
02:02:15,004 --> 02:02:20,055
we raise taxes, then my Cost of living also increases. I, I don't know how. I'm just

1381
02:02:20,055 --> 02:02:24,035
trying to figure out how to put those two together. Well, I do understand at some

1382
02:02:24,035 --> 02:02:28,035
point destiny may become a problem. Let's say it was a new development. It was being

1383
02:02:28,035 --> 02:02:32,043
planned. Instead of putting the traffic calming in first, we put it in when it becomes

1384
02:02:32,043 --> 02:02:36,018
a problem, and then it comes back to how are we gonna fund it, right? I understand

1385
02:02:36,002 --> 02:02:42,016
that. Um, I'm, I'm just trying to tackle the number one top priority that I have

1386
02:02:42,052 --> 02:02:47,069
and not have it be kind of. I mean, we're, when we talk about construction standards,

1387
02:02:47,082 --> 02:02:50,053
you know, we've talked about all these things this year, and this is from the top

1388
02:02:50,053 --> 02:02:55,005
of my head for like a minute that I had to think about it. So like the dark sky compliant

1389
02:02:55,005 --> 02:03:00,038
street lights are more expensive. Landscaping requirements make things more expensive,

1390
02:03:00,043 --> 02:03:05,018
although I heard that we might be talking about lowering that threshold. The green

1391
02:03:05,018 --> 02:03:11,061
space requirements make new developments more expensive. Um And now we're talking

1392
02:03:11,061 --> 02:03:18,092
about the auto re um generated requirement for traffic calming and uh implementing

1393
02:03:18,092 --> 02:03:25,056
a traffic impact fee to pay for those uh in in some cases or here's here's my my

1394
02:03:25,056 --> 02:03:30,053
response to that so. We talk about like affordable housing, we wanna bring down the

1395
02:03:30,053 --> 02:03:36,073
cost of affordable housing, like true affordable housing. They were really like it's

1396
02:03:36,073 --> 02:03:41,063
not new house. It's old houses. That's where your, your real affordable housing is.

1397
02:03:41,068 --> 02:03:45,066
It's, it's the old 30 year old houses, right? 40 year old houses that were well built.

1398
02:03:45,083 --> 02:03:49,082
They were expensive at the time, but now they're 30 years old, right? So they're

1399
02:03:49,082 --> 02:03:55,065
still good, but they're not nearly as much as they were. So I'm. I'm not so concerned

1400
02:03:55,065 --> 02:04:00,054
about the cost of new building of new houses because if you're buying a $600,000

1401
02:04:00,054 --> 02:04:07,027
house, you can afford a $610,000. That's I mean that's the basic. I understand that

1402
02:04:07,027 --> 02:04:13,031
is the general concept and the increase in supply overall brings down the cost of

1403
02:04:13,031 --> 02:04:17,037
the older houses. When someone moves out of their older house into that new house

1404
02:04:17,044 --> 02:04:22,006
and pays the premium for the brand new house in the nice neighborhood with the crosswalks

1405
02:04:22,044 --> 02:04:26,095
and the dark sky compliant and the sidewalks, and they pay a premium for that, their

1406
02:04:26,095 --> 02:04:31,087
old house goes on the market. And now it's available at a cheap, you know, and the

1407
02:04:31,087 --> 02:04:36,023
price of everything as a whole comes down. Now the new houses, yes, they're going

1408
02:04:36,023 --> 02:04:40,051
to be more expensive. I understand that 100%, but I'm just not, I'm just not that

1409
02:04:40,051 --> 02:04:44,067
concerned about the cost of the new houses. I guess they will charge whatever they

1410
02:04:44,067 --> 02:04:49,044
can get for that house. There's not a penny less. There's no definition of what affordable

1411
02:04:49,044 --> 02:04:53,092
housing is. Well, no, there is none. It's not even a thing. There's only a third

1412
02:04:53,092 --> 02:04:59,056
of your paycheck goes to the housing costs, essentially, right? That's normal housing

1413
02:04:59,056 --> 02:05:05,016
right now, right? That's so I have a question just using your hypothetical to staff.

1414
02:05:05,022 --> 02:05:12,054
I mean, so Destiny Lane. Is it doesn't really have, does it have over 1000? I mean

1415
02:05:12,054 --> 02:05:18,008
like, so it's, so it wouldn't be required to because there's not confusing the existing

1416
02:05:18,015 --> 02:05:22,007
with the new development. If that was a new development, it would require by but

1417
02:05:22,007 --> 02:05:29,002
they could design in the road angles and things that would not cost extra cash necessarily

1418
02:05:29,002 --> 02:05:33,006
just by designing the layout to have more interesting roads and not just straight

1419
02:05:33,006 --> 02:05:38,056
long shots of flat road. They can still meet the requirements of having, you know,

1420
02:05:38,081 --> 02:05:41,002
speed intersections without having to

1421
02:05:44,008 --> 02:05:50,072
be. Designed differently, would it hit a threshold like new development doesn't have

1422
02:05:50,082 --> 02:05:55,001
the threshold issue if it was coming in today and this policy was adopted the way

1423
02:05:55,001 --> 02:06:00,003
we have it laid out, they would have to do something to break up that 1500 ft like

1424
02:06:01,014 --> 02:06:06,014
break that up so that they didn't have that. Long of us, I understand that that answers

1425
02:06:06,014 --> 02:06:09,082
my question. But now we're, we're talking about having very interesting streets in

1426
02:06:09,082 --> 02:06:14,062
Kalispell that don't, there's, there's no really great, right, which on, on the plus

1427
02:06:14,062 --> 02:06:19,034
side it's harder to invade us. But on the, on the, on the other side it's, it's,

1428
02:06:19,067 --> 02:06:24,022
it's more difficult to navigate right for if you're going a longer distance, um,

1429
02:06:24,039 --> 02:06:29,000
but I would agree with that, that the most of the new development design already

1430
02:06:29,019 --> 02:06:32,031
sort of has the curving roads and stuff like that. I mean that's just something that.

1431
02:06:33,038 --> 02:06:39,032
People are building into those so. I would also I would also just kind of point out,

1432
02:06:39,037 --> 02:06:43,075
I, I mean, I, I agree with Mr. Walker's assessment about affordable housing and,

1433
02:06:43,085 --> 02:06:49,004
and buying premium and into a new development, but I'd also point out that Building

1434
02:06:49,049 --> 02:06:53,058
these things into when you're actually constructing the road is going to be, I mean,

1435
02:06:53,067 --> 02:06:57,062
we're already talking about how, you know, not a big price tag some of these things

1436
02:06:57,062 --> 02:07:03,009
are when you're looking at just, you know, utilizing $50,000 or whatever. But also,

1437
02:07:03,065 --> 02:07:08,079
You know, when you have the equipment out there already doing the work, and you're

1438
02:07:08,079 --> 02:07:13,044
kind of starting from scratch of building this road, it's, it's even more kind of

1439
02:07:13,044 --> 02:07:19,012
cost effective to, to put it in when you're constructing the street rather than coming

1440
02:07:19,012 --> 02:07:25,005
back later. And basically retrofitting the street. So, I think ultimately, uh, even

1441
02:07:25,005 --> 02:07:28,009
on the kind of the cost of the new housing side, when you're building the street

1442
02:07:28,009 --> 02:07:32,072
and you just kind of incorporate it into the design from the very beginning, uh,

1443
02:07:32,091 --> 02:07:38,086
is, is, it's just not going to add a lot to the cost overall, I think, when you,

1444
02:07:39,003 --> 02:07:45,008
when you look at the overall, um, Cost of the, of the development, when they can

1445
02:07:45,008 --> 02:07:49,015
factor this in, it'll it'll be fairly marginal. Overall.

1446
02:07:54,056 --> 02:07:59,035
Yeah, I still don't agree with you. I, I, I would agree. I would have some questions

1447
02:07:59,035 --> 02:08:04,003
there because I've had conversations with developers about the difference between

1448
02:08:04,003 --> 02:08:09,002
2 inches and 3 inches on a sidewalk. I mean, like in those costs all are there, but

1449
02:08:09,002 --> 02:08:14,015
here, Mr. Walker, what you're also talking about of just which is the musical chairs.

1450
02:08:14,024 --> 02:08:19,019
When you add more chairs, the old chairs have a, have a lesser value that is part

1451
02:08:19,019 --> 02:08:22,016
of the market-driven solutions, so.

1452
02:08:24,078 --> 02:08:30,077
Do we wanna make sure that uh we address any of the other questions that staff has

1453
02:08:30,077 --> 02:08:36,074
for council before we get into the affordability conversation too much. I, I think,

1454
02:08:36,078 --> 02:08:41,086
uh, you know, the first two we've kind of, we've talked about quite a bit. Um, it

1455
02:08:41,086 --> 02:08:45,034
sounds like for the street maintenance district ordinance, you want us to come back

1456
02:08:45,034 --> 02:08:51,043
with what that would look like and um how much that would affect residents potentially.

1457
02:08:52,042 --> 02:08:58,021
Um, I think too we'll also look at Missoula's to see how far the funding goes to,

1458
02:08:58,003 --> 02:09:04,008
to see what projects they, they were able to construct with $50,000 so we, we can

1459
02:09:04,094 --> 02:09:09,025
ask some follow-up questions on that. And I'd also be curious how many, uh, applications

1460
02:09:09,025 --> 02:09:14,025
for SIDS that Billings has gotten, how many projects they're doing through self-funded,

1461
02:09:14,034 --> 02:09:18,085
self-requested SIDS. Yeah, we'll do that. I will say that going into our next work

1462
02:09:18,085 --> 02:09:24,062
session we're gonna keep. The formatting and stuff as it is, I will, I'm gonna send

1463
02:09:24,062 --> 02:09:29,089
out a link to the council on the password sessions cause adding sidewalks and trails

1464
02:09:29,089 --> 02:09:35,065
to this. This is traffic calming policy, it's not. So, that adds a whole other layer

1465
02:09:35,065 --> 02:09:40,065
of council wants to go there. But I, it totally changes this whole scenario, so I'm

1466
02:09:40,065 --> 02:09:45,023
gonna send that out so council can watch that or rewatch it cause there was a whole

1467
02:09:45,023 --> 02:09:50,089
cost to that as well in, in adding sidewalks to this unless that's absolutely the

1468
02:09:50,089 --> 02:09:56,068
direction council wants to head and wants to look at a more holistic um funding opportunity,

1469
02:09:57,014 --> 02:10:03,032
um. It adds a lot of complexity to what you're looking at for sure. So we'll, at

1470
02:10:03,032 --> 02:10:07,072
least going into our next work session, kind of keep it within this realm and look

1471
02:10:07,072 --> 02:10:12,012
at the funding options for council and if, if they, if you feel like you wanna head.

1472
02:10:13,005 --> 02:10:18,066
You know, a little broader, then we can have that discussion at that time, so. And

1473
02:10:18,066 --> 02:10:23,003
Mr. Council President, please, uh, please adjust quorum. I gotta, I gotta thank you

1474
02:10:23,003 --> 02:10:29,057
very much. But I, I really want to hear the public comment, uh, so I will watch this.

1475
02:10:29,099 --> 02:10:34,058
Uh, I, I, I hear our recordings, audios have been all fixed, right? Perfect. Great,

1476
02:10:34,071 --> 02:10:42,013
thank you. Thanks, Sid. Thank you. So, number 3 there um was the

1477
02:10:42,013 --> 02:10:49,032
67% support threshold that was developed um in our original draft council

1478
02:10:49,008 --> 02:10:56,025
and um the main reason for that is just so that if we do have to move forward with

1479
02:10:56,025 --> 02:11:01,033
an SID we feel comfortable that we're going to have the support um to move forward

1480
02:11:01,033 --> 02:11:07,017
with something. But that threshold is a policy decision and so, you know, we'd like

1481
02:11:07,017 --> 02:11:14,005
your guys' input on On that May I ask you a question? So if we go, and I'm not saying

1482
02:11:14,005 --> 02:11:18,018
which way I, I'm wanting to go, I'm just trying to understand. So if we go to the

1483
02:11:18,018 --> 02:11:25,069
street maintenance and district ordinance, then. Could we have a I guess what I'm

1484
02:11:25,069 --> 02:11:26,093
trying to think through is

1485
02:11:29,023 --> 02:11:33,013
I lived in Missoula for 20 years, so I know why they went the route they went because

1486
02:11:33,019 --> 02:11:37,079
they were that low income neighborhoods were not getting in there so uh it just kept

1487
02:11:37,079 --> 02:11:41,078
getting harder and harder for them so I'm concerned about going down that route because

1488
02:11:41,078 --> 02:11:42,066
I saw it happen.

1489
02:11:44,074 --> 02:11:49,037
And yet I don't wanna, if they're our neighbors who want it, could it be that there's

1490
02:11:49,037 --> 02:11:54,074
a threshold where that's what we do for street maintenance or levy or whatever? I

1491
02:11:54,074 --> 02:11:58,066
mean, there are other things thrown out here, right? But then, so that they, those

1492
02:11:58,066 --> 02:12:03,005
neighborhoods, and we all gain from that. And then if there are neighborhoods really,

1493
02:12:03,054 --> 02:12:09,026
really want something that, that's not denied them, but we, we have a baseline. Yeah,

1494
02:12:09,067 --> 02:12:13,066
does that make sense or am I just crazy? No, no, no, that makes perfect sense. If,

1495
02:12:13,079 --> 02:12:20,093
if, uh, SID isn't a funding mechanism, the threshold isn't important anymore, um,

1496
02:12:21,055 --> 02:12:28,003
but for the, uh, non-threshold installs which, um, would be on the streets that are

1497
02:12:28,003 --> 02:12:33,042
low volume potentially, then it would still be important. So, um, I guess either

1498
02:12:33,042 --> 02:12:38,002
way, whether, you know, if we were going to look at SIDs as a funding mechanism.

1499
02:12:38,047 --> 02:12:43,082
What would be the threshold support that um that we would want to utilize for the

1500
02:12:43,082 --> 02:12:45,018
local um support.

1501
02:12:47,054 --> 02:12:54,053
Thank you. So that would be for the SID, but for just a, a general project that maybe

1502
02:12:54,053 --> 02:12:58,065
we're gonna use street maintenance improvement funds, if hypothetically, if we were

1503
02:12:58,065 --> 02:13:03,016
to use that, would you want any type of threshold from the neighboring residents

1504
02:13:03,026 --> 02:13:08,009
that would receive a benefit from that traffic calming feature? And when you say

1505
02:13:08,009 --> 02:13:13,091
threshold, do you mean asking for that maintenance because it could be just one person

1506
02:13:14,011 --> 02:13:20,001
that lives in that area that is concerned about traffic and that one point, would

1507
02:13:20,001 --> 02:13:26,005
you like us to consider a threshold of 50% or 25% or none? And, and that, and I'm

1508
02:13:26,005 --> 02:13:31,074
OK with any one. I just would like direction on, on what that would be. I mean, I

1509
02:13:31,074 --> 02:13:34,097
can speak for myself, and that may or may not be with the rest of the council, but

1510
02:13:35,007 --> 02:13:40,005
I would like none if there's a threshold for safety issues. So that the income level

1511
02:13:40,005 --> 02:13:45,017
of the area does not dictate whether they receive services, but that, and knowing

1512
02:13:45,017 --> 02:13:49,006
that there is an argument, and I do understand it, that some neighborhoods benefit

1513
02:13:49,006 --> 02:13:54,054
more than others. So what's the social contract, right? At, at the social contract

1514
02:13:54,054 --> 02:14:00,026
level, I would say those areas that are clearly rising, you, you've got a list of

1515
02:14:00,026 --> 02:14:05,035
them, right? 4 mile, and you did the sidewalk, and yeah, it's way better. It is remarkably

1516
02:14:05,035 --> 02:14:09,086
better. I run that every day and it's amazing. So how changed and how many times

1517
02:14:09,086 --> 02:14:15,026
I haven't seen people almost get hit, just, it's better. So there's those kinds of

1518
02:14:15,028 --> 02:14:19,063
things versus wouldn't it be nice, right? So that, that's because I guess where I

1519
02:14:19,063 --> 02:14:23,075
fall is I'd love to have a baseline of this is what we hope the community as a whole

1520
02:14:23,075 --> 02:14:28,009
to have. I'm, I'm leaving sidewalks out and, and then, but if we have other areas

1521
02:14:28,009 --> 02:14:32,015
where if the neighborhood is so in, in.

1522
02:14:34,022 --> 02:14:37,009
Inspired, I don't think that's the right word, but I'm looking for something. But

1523
02:14:37,009 --> 02:14:40,089
it's convicted, convinced that this will be, this will be it, then they, then that

1524
02:14:40,089 --> 02:14:46,011
could also be an option, right? And, and there's an inherent threshold if an SID

1525
02:14:46,034 --> 02:14:51,004
is required. They have to get that local support anyway. So my, my thought goes to

1526
02:14:51,042 --> 02:14:56,063
Oregon because as we've done studies on that. Traffic circles are the the recommendation

1527
02:14:56,063 --> 02:15:00,086
in the neighborhood did not like traffic circles. So same in Missoula and guess what?

1528
02:15:01,012 --> 02:15:05,027
Now they all love them. OK, OK, yeah, yep. Just I think it's good that we talked

1529
02:15:05,027 --> 02:15:10,051
through some of these instances. Uh, I lived in one and I saw it play down that they

1530
02:15:10,051 --> 02:15:15,002
now like them and they're safer. They're faster. They're more efficient. Yeah, yeah,

1531
02:15:15,004 --> 02:15:19,084
I'm, I'm all good with it. I just wanted to have the conversation. Yeah, I'm, I'm

1532
02:15:19,084 --> 02:15:23,032
back to, there's a, there's a safety issue, we need to, we need to do it. We do that

1533
02:15:23,032 --> 02:15:26,008
for everything else, like we don't let people keep their lead lines, we're not gonna

1534
02:15:26,008 --> 02:15:31,064
let unsafe conditions linger, we shouldn't let an unsafe condition linger just because

1535
02:15:31,064 --> 02:15:38,013
somebody wants their unsafe condition. So, so you prefer none, is that right? If,

1536
02:15:38,033 --> 02:15:43,091
if required. I mean, I, I think we would like to have it, sure. OK. We should seek

1537
02:15:43,091 --> 02:15:45,001
it if possible.

1538
02:15:47,038 --> 02:15:54,061
I think we can write. Um, so then on thresholds, we have the volume and speed thresholds,

1539
02:15:54,063 --> 02:16:00,026
and, and so just as a refresher, the, the volume was a minimum of 1000 vehicles.

1540
02:16:00,068 --> 02:16:06,001
Um, so this council felt that that's appropriate. We didn't make that number up,

1541
02:16:06,015 --> 02:16:12,026
that was from another traffic calming, uh, policy or program, but, um, that's also

1542
02:16:12,047 --> 02:16:13,054
a policy decision.

1543
02:16:16,032 --> 02:16:22,071
That narrow down the number of roads enough to a manageable level. Yes, yeah, I,

1544
02:16:23,013 --> 02:16:29,066
I think the volume really does help where that is. Again, part of it is that And

1545
02:16:29,066 --> 02:16:35,002
the smaller volume issues, that's where a neighbor can go get one of those signs

1546
02:16:35,002 --> 02:16:37,054
saying kids are in the neighborhood sort of thing, I mean, like, I mean, like I'm

1547
02:16:37,054 --> 02:16:41,014
just saying that like it like, by the point where it's a public interest, I want

1548
02:16:41,014 --> 02:16:47,061
to make sure that there's a volume going through there, they do. Um, so I do think

1549
02:16:47,061 --> 02:16:52,023
that that's like where the volume makes a lot of sense to me because I think it really

1550
02:16:53,092 --> 02:16:58,087
Also helps staff know where we're focusing and on the public good that something

1551
02:16:58,087 --> 02:17:02,071
we could adjust in the future years if it determines that we've met all of these

1552
02:17:02,074 --> 02:17:08,006
or we need to expand our thresholds or whatever, right? Yep, absolutely. Um, speed

1553
02:17:08,006 --> 02:17:14,052
thresholds is another portion of this. So we have the 85th percentile of 5 miles

1554
02:17:14,052 --> 02:17:21,012
an hour over, um, for the locals or 10 miles an hour over for a collector or arterial.

1555
02:17:21,069 --> 02:17:29,024
Um, and then the other speed threshold is uh a 5% exceeding the um 10 miles an hour

1556
02:17:29,024 --> 02:17:37,019
for a local or 15 miles an hour for a collector. So just Is everybody

1557
02:17:37,019 --> 02:17:44,035
kind of on board with those ideas? OK, yeah, yeah, I think, um, just. It,

1558
02:17:45,028 --> 02:17:51,011
what sold me on kind of the thresholds was seeing your, your chart of how the roads

1559
02:17:51,011 --> 02:17:58,009
we've received complaints on rank out and that these, you know, roads that we buy,

1560
02:17:59,012 --> 02:18:02,009
you know, we know our priorities simply because of the complaints we received them.

1561
02:18:03,044 --> 02:18:08,051
They, with the thresholds, they still come out and they're, they seem ranked fairly

1562
02:18:08,051 --> 02:18:14,081
appropriately and they all uh qualify for You know, as a priority. So I think, I

1563
02:18:14,081 --> 02:18:18,048
think that was really helpful for me to, to say, yeah, the, the thresholds work.

1564
02:18:20,054 --> 02:18:25,014
Yeah, yeah, I think we've already talked about 5, so move on to the next, and that's

1565
02:18:25,014 --> 02:18:28,007
just kind of open for do we want to do, is there any more discussion on the updates

1566
02:18:28,007 --> 02:18:31,041
to the standards do is that.

1567
02:18:33,079 --> 02:18:38,057
I just said, I had a few notes and I'll, you know, do that more on the discussion

1568
02:18:38,059 --> 02:18:44,047
as well, but if we want. Focus on the standards. There was one section, um, this

1569
02:18:44,047 --> 02:18:51,019
is on page 42, reference publications. Uh, it says where reference publication conflicts

1570
02:18:51,019 --> 02:18:59,007
with the MUTCD and ASHTO policy, um, that the standards would, would be the

1571
02:18:59,007 --> 02:19:05,003
governing controls. Um, and You know, my, my general comment throughout the document,

1572
02:19:05,016 --> 02:19:11,043
anytime I see ASTO, I, I, you all know, I, I bring up NACTO, uh, National Association

1573
02:19:11,043 --> 02:19:15,079
of City Transportation Officials, that I want that to be, uh, kind of throughout

1574
02:19:15,079 --> 02:19:23,026
our documents, um, included as a standard. Um, and there was a question,

1575
02:19:23,006 --> 02:19:27,031
unfortunately, Mr. Dowd has left already, but, uh, in the past, he asked, well, what

1576
02:19:27,031 --> 02:19:30,089
is NACTO? I don't even know kind of what It does. And essentially what it does is

1577
02:19:30,089 --> 02:19:35,094
what we're trying to do here, uh, is it kind of lays out, uh, what these alternative,

1578
02:19:36,033 --> 02:19:42,085
um, ideas are for traffic calming and, and just better streets for pedestrian safety

1579
02:19:42,085 --> 02:19:48,093
and livability and so forth. So this is very much a NACTO aligned document, as I

1580
02:19:48,093 --> 02:19:56,003
understand it. Um, but the whole idea with NACTO, for example, is that Um,

1581
02:19:56,067 --> 02:20:03,002
Ashto is inadequate when it comes to questions like this. And so it's providing this

1582
02:20:03,002 --> 02:20:08,015
alternative view. So, if, uh, if we're saying that when Ashto and Nacto, for example,

1583
02:20:08,055 --> 02:20:15,033
were to conflict, that Ashto Um, prevails, then that kind of

1584
02:20:16,051 --> 02:20:20,066
That goes against the whole document in my mind. Uh, cause the whole document is

1585
02:20:20,066 --> 02:20:25,034
saying, no, actually, uh, we're, we're applying these standards that NACTO is trying

1586
02:20:25,034 --> 02:20:32,026
to elevate, uh, that gets away from these kind of cookie-cutter, uh, old-style standards

1587
02:20:32,026 --> 02:20:40,014
that's in Nashville. Um, At least as I Understand it from a cursory view. I,

1588
02:20:40,032 --> 02:20:46,043
you know, Keith, you may have, you know, studied Nacto versus Ashto more closely.

1589
02:20:46,069 --> 02:20:51,099
So correct me if I'm wrong, but, uh, that, that was just something that, that stood

1590
02:20:51,099 --> 02:20:59,074
out to me. Uh, I would, yeah, I guess my only, so we did add NACTO as

1591
02:20:59,076 --> 02:21:05,024
a reference document, a couple of different NACTO documents as reference items. Um,

1592
02:21:05,033 --> 02:21:11,021
as well as, you know, the ITE designing walkable urban thoroughfares, um, and I think

1593
02:21:11,021 --> 02:21:18,011
there may have been Uh Oh, Federal Highways, traffic calming primer. All of those

1594
02:21:18,011 --> 02:21:23,087
documents are, are very similar in that they're not providing exact engineer, uh,

1595
02:21:24,008 --> 02:21:31,076
engineering calculations or, or empirical data. They're, um, they're providing,

1596
02:21:32,007 --> 02:21:38,088
uh, general planning, um, best management practices, ideas like you're saying. But

1597
02:21:38,088 --> 02:21:45,076
the NACTO document itself, um, it, it suggests that you develop your own standards

1598
02:21:45,076 --> 02:21:51,044
based off of those as kind of a guiding principle. And so that I guess is kind of

1599
02:21:51,044 --> 02:21:55,076
our hope is that we're gonna be able to take some of these ideas from multiple sources

1600
02:21:56,005 --> 02:22:03,065
and then refine them down into what is Kalispell's um Toolbox, uh, detail designs

1601
02:22:03,084 --> 02:22:08,057
that we would include in the city standards which are then the engineering, um, standards

1602
02:22:08,057 --> 02:22:15,041
that Calspell adopts. Yeah, and that's, that's exactly my, you know, uh, that, that's

1603
02:22:15,041 --> 02:22:19,096
what I understand, and uh, and uh, I'm glad that we're doing this process. I guess

1604
02:22:19,096 --> 02:22:24,073
my concern is that there might be, and again, I'm not an expert on this, so I'll

1605
02:22:24,073 --> 02:22:29,073
rely on your expertise and knowledge of it. But if there's something in Ashto that

1606
02:22:29,073 --> 02:22:34,015
says, you know, we can't be doing some of these things because it's not in there

1607
02:22:34,015 --> 02:22:39,004
as a standard and it conflicts with some of the things we're, we're trying to do,

1608
02:22:39,007 --> 02:22:45,053
then I would say, You know, we should move forward with when we know we have a proven

1609
02:22:45,053 --> 02:22:50,095
solution. It's been implemented in other communities. The data shows it works on

1610
02:22:50,095 --> 02:22:56,047
safety and so forth, that we don't let the Asto standards, if it conflicts, to say,

1611
02:22:56,056 --> 02:23:02,054
well, we can't do it. Yeah, and I think the city standards would govern over the

1612
02:23:02,054 --> 02:23:08,095
other, other ones as well. So, OK, so as far as like where I am on that last standard,

1613
02:23:09,001 --> 02:23:13,046
I mean I do think when I see what Mr. Dowd's saying the difference with new development

1614
02:23:13,069 --> 02:23:18,019
when we have a lot of standards including sidewalks, curbs, gutters, and like the

1615
02:23:19,042 --> 02:23:23,068
Traffic triangle, the, the, the, the sightlines that we are building all these things

1616
02:23:23,007 --> 02:23:29,096
out to. I feel like in general this policy is talking about our more historic neighborhoods

1617
02:23:30,008 --> 02:23:31,072
and so that's. Uh

1618
02:23:33,074 --> 02:23:40,001
My 2 cents' worth on it cause I do see that a lot of new developments already. Designed

1619
02:23:40,001 --> 02:23:46,007
in a way that we're already putting have a lot of requirements that. We wouldn't

1620
02:23:46,099 --> 02:23:52,013
necessarily by theory need to go back and go into um traffic calming into those spaces

1621
02:23:52,013 --> 02:23:57,058
as a as a requirement, but again where I see these these features being added are

1622
02:23:57,058 --> 02:24:04,085
more of our historic areas, so not I, I would, I would. I would just I would say

1623
02:24:04,085 --> 02:24:08,041
I, I'm not seeing that actually in new developments. I'm seeing new developments

1624
02:24:08,041 --> 02:24:15,072
actually building rows um very much kind of on the, the old style, uh, where

1625
02:24:16,053 --> 02:24:20,044
Where they are, and, and we're seeing it. I mean, we've seen, we've gotten complaints

1626
02:24:20,044 --> 02:24:25,051
of Silverbrook, that was one of the, one of the lists, and, and there's a new development,

1627
02:24:25,082 --> 02:24:32,022
um. Uh, I forget the name, but, uh, it's brand new. I mean, they're still under construction

1628
02:24:32,022 --> 02:24:37,029
and we've gotten complaints about, uh, traffic calming issues. I would say that,

1629
02:24:37,005 --> 02:24:44,005
uh, We are not, we are not, we are not seeing these new, um, kind of approaches

1630
02:24:44,005 --> 02:24:49,014
to street design that would slow traffic in our new development. They're, they're,

1631
02:24:49,039 --> 02:24:53,073
they're, they're building out kind of the traditional road network and, and so I,

1632
02:24:53,083 --> 02:24:59,054
I, I think this is actually Very, very much important part of this traffic calming

1633
02:24:59,054 --> 02:25:05,046
policy to amend our development standards so that we get it upfront, so we're not

1634
02:25:05,046 --> 02:25:12,036
continuing to double down on the problem by building more and more roads that are

1635
02:25:12,036 --> 02:25:16,068
creating the problems we're trying to solve in our old neighborhoods, uh, and that

1636
02:25:16,068 --> 02:25:20,024
we're just going to have to come back with more money to solve in our new neighborhoods

1637
02:25:20,024 --> 02:25:26,072
that are getting built out the wrong way. Yeah, um, oh, sorry. Yeah, the, the last

1638
02:25:26,072 --> 02:25:31,008
one on, on the, the new standards. So there's, there's kind of at the end here, page

1639
02:25:31,008 --> 02:25:39,005
46, um. It talks about requiring for transportation impact study, uh, including

1640
02:25:39,005 --> 02:25:44,009
kind of analysis of traffic, uh, calming. And I, I think that should be expanded.

1641
02:25:44,099 --> 02:25:48,098
Uh, you know, this is something I've, uh, I've been interested in a while as well,

1642
02:25:49,019 --> 02:25:56,004
is, and we saw it with Tronstad. Where, uh, and, and the development there at Blue

1643
02:25:56,007 --> 02:26:01,041
Bluestone, uh, that Mr. Dowd was talking about as well, where you have new development

1644
02:26:01,048 --> 02:26:06,062
and there's a concern about the impact that that new development is going to have

1645
02:26:06,064 --> 02:26:12,051
on safety. And this could be pedestrian safety as it was on Bluestone, but it could

1646
02:26:12,051 --> 02:26:16,099
also just be vehicle safety, not considering pedestrian when it comes to Tronstat,

1647
02:26:17,012 --> 02:26:22,009
when you're looking at the intersection at Whitefish Stage and Tronstad. Uh, and

1648
02:26:22,009 --> 02:26:28,069
93 in Shaunstead. Uh, but it was difficult for us to have that conversation and require

1649
02:26:28,069 --> 02:26:33,057
things of the developer because our traffic impact study just looks at, um, carrying

1650
02:26:33,057 --> 02:26:38,068
capacity. The, the functionality of intersections in the road, uh, is not looking

1651
02:26:38,078 --> 02:26:45,028
at safety. And so, I think our traffic impact, um, study requirements. Should require

1652
02:26:45,006 --> 02:26:51,039
not only, you know, traffic calming features, but specifically looking at both traffic,

1653
02:26:51,065 --> 02:26:57,012
vehicle and pedestrian safety questions and what, what mitigation measures might

1654
02:26:57,012 --> 02:27:03,085
be required to address those. And Mayor Hunter, I would agree with you that I'd like

1655
02:27:03,085 --> 02:27:08,004
to see, unlike, um, Council Dowd, I'd like to see updates to city standards so that

1656
02:27:08,073 --> 02:27:13,077
we don't have to con incur costs later. Yeah, I would definitely also agree with

1657
02:27:13,077 --> 02:27:19,002
that. Going back to my earlier concern is I would certainly like to see uh pedestrians

1658
02:27:19,002 --> 02:27:23,046
saved before they get hit and see these calming measures put in before accidents

1659
02:27:23,046 --> 02:27:28,039
happen instead of always in a reactive manner after someone is hurt or killed. So

1660
02:27:28,063 --> 02:27:33,009
I, I, I 100% support them going in first. It's definitely the more financially viable

1661
02:27:33,009 --> 02:27:39,093
option and it saves lives and, and, and kind of uh piggybacking on that thought,

1662
02:27:40,004 --> 02:27:46,002
um. Our standards, I think, do a very good job now for pedestrians. I, I, I think

1663
02:27:46,002 --> 02:27:52,006
that's where our standards are in, in good shape, um, outside of maybe some of these

1664
02:27:52,006 --> 02:27:57,092
crossings that we're talking about with traffic calming. Um, but, you know, we have

1665
02:27:57,092 --> 02:28:03,047
straight sections, the, the one on um Jefferson is an example of the recent development

1666
02:28:03,008 --> 02:28:08,006
that has created an issue for the, the residents that are there trying to get to

1667
02:28:08,006 --> 02:28:13,056
the mailbox. And so that's why we brought it up as an example. I pulled in the um

1668
02:28:13,056 --> 02:28:17,052
south side of states just because it was another area of town that I wanted to analyze

1669
02:28:17,052 --> 02:28:22,064
and see how the, the curves in the road would um be affected and that sort of thing

1670
02:28:22,064 --> 02:28:27,024
and it, it showed that most of it was compliant, maybe some small things would have

1671
02:28:27,024 --> 02:28:35,005
to happen, but So, um, yeah, I think. Updates to the standards. I've kind of

1672
02:28:35,005 --> 02:28:40,061
changed my mind on this, um, uh, you know, originally I was really hesitant to add

1673
02:28:40,009 --> 02:28:45,096
any kind of traffic calming into the standards because of the risk that that, um,

1674
02:28:46,018 --> 02:28:51,065
would potentially put the city at or an engineer in particular at if someone got

1675
02:28:51,065 --> 02:28:56,073
into an accident at a traffic calming feature. Um, but, you know, I, I think there's

1676
02:28:56,073 --> 02:29:01,085
a risk and reward and there's a risk on both sides of that, um, argument, so Um,

1677
02:29:02,006 --> 02:29:08,057
you know, I, I do see how much more expensive it is for a traffic calming device

1678
02:29:08,057 --> 02:29:13,021
to go in in a built-out neighborhood and it's not just the cost of the construction

1679
02:29:13,021 --> 02:29:17,029
but also you have to figure out where to put traffic while you construct it. In,

1680
02:29:17,007 --> 02:29:21,085
in some of these new developments, you don't have those options, um, really if you're

1681
02:29:21,085 --> 02:29:27,041
taking away one of the two entry points to a development that they needed to, to

1682
02:29:27,041 --> 02:29:31,078
get built in the first place, so I, I see the advantage of going in with new development.

1683
02:29:31,087 --> 02:29:37,089
I, I think that's a very valuable thing and it's, you know, over time, um, that's

1684
02:29:38,035 --> 02:29:41,042
changed my opinion and seeing some of the things that we're dealing now with, with

1685
02:29:41,042 --> 02:29:47,062
new development. And some of that just comes with growth, right? You know, 1015 years

1686
02:29:47,062 --> 02:29:51,005
ago we weren't seeing these types of issues and now we are, so I think we just have

1687
02:29:51,005 --> 02:29:56,005
to be more open-minded and understanding what the community needs and try to implement

1688
02:29:56,005 --> 02:29:59,096
that into our new standards, so. I think those are good things. And one of the things

1689
02:29:59,096 --> 02:30:05,092
we did try to add, uh, Mayor Hunter, to your, um, concern as far as the traffic impact

1690
02:30:05,092 --> 02:30:11,028
study, we did add pedestrian generators to review that as a part of the traffic impact

1691
02:30:11,028 --> 02:30:13,036
study. So we did add that in.

1692
02:30:15,086 --> 02:30:21,081
Right. It was so, uh, yeah, but that's, that's specifically for those areas, right?

1693
02:30:22,001 --> 02:30:29,009
So, um, I don't know if like Bluestone or um Uh, you know, the intersection of wife

1694
02:30:29,092 --> 02:30:36,007
is stage and Tronstad, whether that would get captured in terms of a safety analysis

1695
02:30:36,007 --> 02:30:42,038
by that. So it might be too far away from the actual subdivision, but yeah. Well,

1696
02:30:42,051 --> 02:30:47,034
but we were talking about that stuff as part of like both development reviews, and

1697
02:30:47,034 --> 02:30:51,094
it was part of the traffic impact study to look at those streets, but because the

1698
02:30:51,094 --> 02:30:59,045
traffic impact study only looked at um you know, level of service. Uh, you know,

1699
02:30:59,054 --> 02:31:03,017
you're only looking at level of service with traffic impact study and, and kind of

1700
02:31:03,017 --> 02:31:08,081
the, the ability to handle the traffic volume, but not, it's not a safety question.

1701
02:31:08,094 --> 02:31:14,049
I mean that's the biggest. I, I reached out to our um third party traffic review

1702
02:31:14,058 --> 02:31:20,028
consultant about that very question and um we're, we're discussing what could be

1703
02:31:20,003 --> 02:31:25,006
done there. uh. You're right, like Transtad is, is a little bit different because

1704
02:31:25,006 --> 02:31:30,016
there is no pedestrian features out there per se, except for what the city's installed

1705
02:31:30,016 --> 02:31:37,035
on Quil, um, Quil Meadows or whatever the Quil one is. Um. So, you know, the intersection

1706
02:31:37,035 --> 02:31:43,033
of uh Whitefish Stage and um Tronstad Road, there's no pedestrian features out there.

1707
02:31:43,051 --> 02:31:48,022
Um, you know, I think where it comes up more common it would be like the landings

1708
02:31:48,022 --> 02:31:53,007
at 2 Mile where we wanted the connection down to, to Meridian and that was off-site

1709
02:31:53,007 --> 02:31:59,085
and it's not really addressed in the traffic um review, um, you know, we're providing

1710
02:31:59,087 --> 02:32:05,058
the The pedestrian features in the the development itself but off-site that gets,

1711
02:32:05,006 --> 02:32:10,055
uh gets more difficult to push that onto the, the development when it should have

1712
02:32:10,055 --> 02:32:17,033
been maybe in place years ago. Um, but yeah, I, I'm, what's, what's also difficult

1713
02:32:17,033 --> 02:32:25,001
is again when you don't have Uh, defined use in place for new development, it can

1714
02:32:25,001 --> 02:32:29,085
be really hard to determine what your pedestrian generation is going to be because

1715
02:32:29,085 --> 02:32:35,009
it can change dramatically by just different commercial uses. Um, so, those are things

1716
02:32:35,092 --> 02:32:39,023
that there's, I think there's methods out there. I'm just not familiar with them

1717
02:32:39,023 --> 02:32:40,091
and I'm trying to learn a little bit about it.

1718
02:32:46,002 --> 02:32:50,047
With that, I mean, I think we've had, we're clearly that we've given some direction.

1719
02:32:51,098 --> 02:32:57,008
Motion of council isn't here right now, so we're gonna have a clearly some more conversations

1720
02:32:57,008 --> 02:33:01,057
from those who are absent for today and stuff like that. I would love to make sure

1721
02:33:01,057 --> 02:33:07,016
that we make time for public comment for the willing public who stayed for 2.5 hours

1722
02:33:07,018 --> 02:33:11,093
of our meeting. So with that, I would like to now open our meeting up for public

1723
02:33:11,093 --> 02:33:15,077
comments. If you would like to provide comments on any items under the jurisdiction

1724
02:33:15,077 --> 02:33:19,069
of the city council, please approach the podium, state your name, whether you're

1725
02:33:19,069 --> 02:33:25,023
a city resident. And um where you would live, where you live with us. Um, if you

1726
02:33:25,023 --> 02:33:30,095
are attending via Zoom, please raise your hand and let's limit our comments to 3

1727
02:33:30,095 --> 02:33:34,079
minutes if we can. I'll give you a little bit of extra time if you want.

1728
02:33:43,083 --> 02:33:51,017
Is this on? Doctor Dewey. My name is Paula Mendel and um I've been coming since

1729
02:33:51,019 --> 02:33:56,099
2023 and I want to thank you guys for all your, I mean, this is huge for you guys

1730
02:33:56,099 --> 02:34:03,004
to do this kind of a study and everything. It really makes it fair and I think people

1731
02:34:03,004 --> 02:34:07,078
will understand that when they can see when you make choices. Unfortunately, there's

1732
02:34:07,078 --> 02:34:14,067
never enough funding to do all of this, but um I did wanna say thank you, um.

1733
02:34:16,003 --> 02:34:23,049
You guys completed the trail from on 4 Mile by Kidsport all the way down to Kidsport.

1734
02:34:23,071 --> 02:34:29,003
And so now, now we don't have folks running with strollers up 4 Mile to try to get

1735
02:34:29,003 --> 02:34:35,006
to the, the, the new path. So that, that bike trail, the walking path has been completed.

1736
02:34:35,087 --> 02:34:43,008
And we do have flashing lights. Unfortunately, I walked that. Every day, and usually,

1737
02:34:44,001 --> 02:34:49,065
1 out of 5 cars will stop for me when the flashing lights are all flashing. Some

1738
02:34:49,065 --> 02:34:54,012
of them are on their phones, they can't be bothered with a little gray-haired lady

1739
02:34:54,012 --> 02:34:58,088
trying to cross the street. But um thank you for getting that done. That's huge.

1740
02:34:59,013 --> 02:35:05,053
And now I'm hoping that we can get for 4 Mile some tabletops because 4 Mile, the

1741
02:35:05,053 --> 02:35:13,012
volume, you guys can see has Just increased. I mean, it's crazy. The people coming

1742
02:35:13,012 --> 02:35:18,082
down the hill, they will stop up at the top of the hill because it's a 25 mile an

1743
02:35:18,082 --> 02:35:23,003
hour flashing. They stop for that and then they roll down the hill and they're going

1744
02:35:23,032 --> 02:35:30,006
50 at least by the time they get through. All the exits for, you know, for the kids'

1745
02:35:30,006 --> 02:35:36,042
sports, the entrances and the exits. Now we have so much volume in kids' sport that

1746
02:35:36,042 --> 02:35:44,026
they're using the church um That empty lot that's next to the meadows.

1747
02:35:44,056 --> 02:35:50,091
I forgot my address. My address is 205 Meadow Vista Loop, but um, now they're using.

1748
02:35:51,095 --> 02:35:56,086
That empty lot, little kids coming out and their folks, you know, they're all geared

1749
02:35:56,086 --> 02:36:03,013
up and they're walking, they've got to get to the game, you know, to, uh, to play

1750
02:36:03,043 --> 02:36:09,078
and nobody's slowing down for them. I mean, it's, it's scary, the kids crossing,

1751
02:36:09,008 --> 02:36:15,019
so I'm glad you guys are, are working this and, and thank you for all your efforts.

1752
02:36:32,022 --> 02:36:38,044
I have to elevate this, excuse me. OK. Um, my name is Justin Van Emmerich. I'm a

1753
02:36:38,044 --> 02:36:43,072
resident of Kalispell. I live at 851 North Main Street, Ward 2. Hi, Councilor Blank.

1754
02:36:44,032 --> 02:36:49,044
Um, I, I have a lot of comments on this, and this is excellent work, but, uh, I know

1755
02:36:49,044 --> 02:36:54,056
we're focused on the money, so I'll just focus my comments on that. Uh, I would encourage

1756
02:36:54,056 --> 02:37:00,044
council to ultimately get to yes with establishing a permanent sustainable funding

1757
02:37:00,044 --> 02:37:05,095
source, um, that recurs annually. I'm by no means an expert on how to do that within

1758
02:37:05,095 --> 02:37:09,047
city budget mechanics, so I'll certainly leave that to you, but it sounds like there

1759
02:37:09,047 --> 02:37:14,077
might be something that would work with the um highway or street maintenance or improvement

1760
02:37:14,092 --> 02:37:21,000
uh mechanism. It's not gonna be a lot of money, you know, 20,000 to 30,000 $50,000

1761
02:37:21,002 --> 02:37:24,068
a year, it doesn't buy a whole lot, um, but I think we've just heard that we can

1762
02:37:24,068 --> 02:37:31,057
chip away at some of our highest priority problem areas and, you know, 5 years, 10

1763
02:37:31,057 --> 02:37:38,059
years, 15 years, that really makes a difference. Um You know, I, I'm a husband, I've

1764
02:37:38,059 --> 02:37:44,067
got a wife, I've got a 16 month old kid. We live on North Main, uh, and we cross

1765
02:37:44,067 --> 02:37:50,015
that street every day to access the multi-use trail directly across it. Um, we're

1766
02:37:50,015 --> 02:37:53,079
not, you know, we have a sidewalk, we have trails, we don't have is a street where

1767
02:37:53,079 --> 02:37:58,097
people drive at a safe speed. We just want people to slow down. Um, and we're not

1768
02:37:58,097 --> 02:38:03,021
even the worst in the rankings, you know, we're 4th, and I think that's totally valid

1769
02:38:03,021 --> 02:38:07,057
based on the, the data that Public Works has collected, so I can't imagine how people

1770
02:38:07,057 --> 02:38:13,098
living on 4 Mile and East Oregon feel. So, I would just ask that the city council

1771
02:38:14,000 --> 02:38:19,058
ultimately look at how to establish a modest budget to start making progress on this

1772
02:38:19,068 --> 02:38:24,059
so that safety isn't left to very uneven neighborhood engagement through strictly

1773
02:38:24,059 --> 02:38:30,009
SIDs. Um, and finally, I'll close just by saying this is, this is really excellent

1774
02:38:30,009 --> 02:38:34,064
work. I appreciate all the time and diligence that has clearly gone into it by Public

1775
02:38:34,067 --> 02:38:38,093
Works. So, yeah, I just want to specifically commend Director Wiles and Deputy Director

1776
02:38:38,093 --> 02:38:41,017
Haskins. So, thank you very much for your time.

1777
02:38:51,046 --> 02:38:59,001
Nothing online. No more public comment. Um, is there a city manager's report? Yeah,

1778
02:38:59,014 --> 02:39:03,041
Mary Council, so we do have direction. We'll kind of proceed forward as I mentioned

1779
02:39:03,041 --> 02:39:08,088
earlier, um. Trails and sidewalks does add a whole another layer to this, so at this

1780
02:39:08,088 --> 02:39:12,072
point in time, we'll kind of focus within the traffic calming policy and some of

1781
02:39:12,072 --> 02:39:16,098
the direction we heard. I'll send out the link to kind of some of those older work

1782
02:39:16,098 --> 02:39:24,072
sessions and meetings we had in regards to that, um. Other than that, ah. Sure, everybody's

1783
02:39:24,072 --> 02:39:31,004
aware, the president's coming to town. Um, we are doing the best we can to be prepared

1784
02:39:31,004 --> 02:39:36,035
for Wednesday, and, uh, with that being said, Please pay attention to any public

1785
02:39:36,035 --> 02:39:39,063
notices that are gonna be coming out. There's gonna be a lot of traffic control,

1786
02:39:39,072 --> 02:39:43,043
there's gonna be a lot of interruptions with traffic come Wednesday afternoon, so

1787
02:39:43,043 --> 02:39:49,056
please, Um, follow any public alerts and stuff that'll be coming out because, uh,

1788
02:39:50,061 --> 02:39:54,008
If you're on the north end of town, your day is gonna be a bit different come Wednesday.

1789
02:39:54,013 --> 02:39:58,082
I'm just putting that out there, there is gonna be a lot of disruption, um, so that,

1790
02:39:58,093 --> 02:40:00,017
that's all I got for today.

1791
02:40:02,047 --> 02:40:04,002
Any council reports?

1792
02:40:07,018 --> 02:40:11,009
Ms. Blank, I just have a quick one. It's late, so I won't go into it, um, but I would

1793
02:40:11,009 --> 02:40:17,093
love to request a work session to look at how we, um, manage public comment and can

1794
02:40:17,093 --> 02:40:23,029
we look at some models for comment cards for, uh, we have a police chief now whose

1795
02:40:23,029 --> 02:40:27,019
family has been threatened. We have a city council member whose family has been threatened.

1796
02:40:27,042 --> 02:40:31,066
I just feel like the temperature is rising. And I'd like to think that our staff

1797
02:40:31,069 --> 02:40:36,001
also probably feel some of this, and so I'd, I'd really like us to have a work session

1798
02:40:36,001 --> 02:40:40,001
about how we make sure everyone feels safe and there's space for all of us to say

1799
02:40:40,001 --> 02:40:44,094
what we have to say, but there's accommodation so that we feel safe. I don't know

1800
02:40:44,094 --> 02:40:46,035
what else to say except for that.

1801
02:40:49,028 --> 02:40:55,019
Mr. Walker, uh, just wanna say thank you, staff, for this, uh, traffic calming stuff,

1802
02:40:55,028 --> 02:41:02,032
um. It's, I think it's uh long overdue. I think it's a great policy, um, really excited

1803
02:41:02,032 --> 02:41:07,028
to see it. Um, nothing's perfect, but uh I, I think it's a great starting point,

1804
02:41:07,037 --> 02:41:12,014
um, see how these things go and I look forward to, uh, To getting this implemented.

1805
02:41:12,004 --> 02:41:17,055
Thanks again, and I echo your sentiments as well, but we all need to be safe to express

1806
02:41:17,055 --> 02:41:22,042
our opinions and feel safe to do so, uh, in here. So I know some people have trouble

1807
02:41:23,004 --> 02:41:28,063
understanding why our format is the way it is, um, but we want to ensure everybody

1808
02:41:28,063 --> 02:41:31,045
has the equal right to speak their mind, uh, in this hall.

1809
02:41:35,003 --> 02:41:40,056
OK. And I would just second both, um, I actually mentioned that to Mayor Hunter a

1810
02:41:40,056 --> 02:41:46,092
while back about the possibility of comment cards and modifying public comment perhaps,

1811
02:41:47,013 --> 02:41:53,004
um, so everyone that wants to speak has a chance to do so. Um, and thank you, Keith

1812
02:41:53,004 --> 02:41:59,034
and Suzie. I suspect you had something to do with all this too, Jared, but what a

1813
02:41:59,034 --> 02:42:06,048
great in-depth presentation and um appreciate. I could have given more comment, but

1814
02:42:06,048 --> 02:42:12,039
I'm really wanting to learn and listen um before I, I speak out, so thank you.

1815
02:42:14,076 --> 02:42:15,054
Bear hunter

1816
02:42:18,087 --> 02:42:23,052
Yeah, thank you. Um, uh, yeah, I just wanna echo, I've, I've been waiting for this

1817
02:42:23,052 --> 02:42:29,093
work session for a long time. Um, everybody knows this is a priority for me. Uh,

1818
02:42:30,019 --> 02:42:38,018
and I, um, apologize not being there in person. Um, but, uh, I, I'm very happy

1819
02:42:38,018 --> 02:42:42,077
that we had this discussion, and I'm very excited that we're, uh, uh, moving in the

1820
02:42:42,077 --> 02:42:48,000
direction of, of getting a policy like this in place. So, thank you to staff for

1821
02:42:48,002 --> 02:42:53,049
um putting together, I think, uh, excellent first draft of it. Um, I think it's definitely

1822
02:42:53,049 --> 02:42:57,024
on the right track, and I know a lot of work went into it, and I, I think it's very

1823
02:42:57,026 --> 02:43:02,055
good. Uh, one thing I didn't, uh, have a chance to mention, uh, just my last comment

1824
02:43:02,058 --> 02:43:10,037
on it is, I know we have, so the pedestrian generator for the new development.

1825
02:43:10,007 --> 02:43:18,001
Um, but in terms of the screening criteria, For projects um in existing

1826
02:43:18,001 --> 02:43:23,061
neighborhoods. I didn't, I, I'm wondering if there's value in having some sort of

1827
02:43:23,061 --> 02:43:28,027
pedestrian generator type criteria in that as well when we're looking at, I didn't

1828
02:43:28,027 --> 02:43:32,099
see anything that, oh, you know, if you have a school zone, or if you have a park,

1829
02:43:33,008 --> 02:43:38,011
or you have, you know, one of these pedestrian areas, that, that maybe rises up the

1830
02:43:38,011 --> 02:43:44,043
list a little bit of an area that needs treatment, uh, if there's ongoing concern.

1831
02:43:44,056 --> 02:43:49,091
So, uh, I didn't see that in there, and I just thought that might be um Uh, consideration

1832
02:43:49,091 --> 02:43:56,051
for, for inclusion. Um, in terms of, uh, you know, work session on doing things,

1833
02:43:56,064 --> 02:44:00,001
uh, differently on public comment, happy to have that discussion. And, and yeah,

1834
02:44:00,008 --> 02:44:04,039
I, you know, obviously, we've, we've been running into some problems, uh, with people

1835
02:44:04,039 --> 02:44:10,023
who don't respect, uh, kind of the, the reasons why we try to limit, um, uh, the

1836
02:44:10,023 --> 02:44:18,004
total time, um, uh. It's, there, there's reasons for that. Um, I did, I did, uh,

1837
02:44:18,036 --> 02:44:22,099
Ms. Gabriel had mentioned the comment card. I, I did give it serious consideration,

1838
02:44:23,025 --> 02:44:29,039
um, and can have that discussion, obviously, um, I would respect the majority of

1839
02:44:29,039 --> 02:44:34,075
counsel's opinion on that. I, I felt there was, um, some real issues with practicality

1840
02:44:34,075 --> 02:44:40,052
of implementation of it, um, but, uh, happy to have that discussion further. Thank

1841
02:44:40,052 --> 02:44:40,076
you.

1842
02:44:45,019 --> 02:44:52,045
Right, well. Thank you all for your work on a great presentation. A reminder to everybody

1843
02:44:52,045 --> 02:44:56,081
in the public that part of the reason we have conversations about traffic calming

1844
02:44:56,081 --> 02:45:02,006
is that we all could just drive a little bit slower. I mean, I know I, my husband,

1845
02:45:02,062 --> 02:45:07,069
and other people sometimes just add that extra 5 miles onto every speed, speed limit,

1846
02:45:07,074 --> 02:45:13,001
and that's, that's breaking the law. So I do think that just reminders that we also

1847
02:45:13,001 --> 02:45:18,064
have a responsibility for making our community safer. Um, and then also, um, really

1848
02:45:18,064 --> 02:45:21,093
excited that the president's coming here. I can see why he would come to Kalispell

1849
02:45:21,093 --> 02:45:27,047
because we're the greatest city in America. Um, and I know that city staff, the police,

1850
02:45:27,053 --> 02:45:32,021
and firefighters will do their best to make sure that we are a city that's proud

1851
02:45:32,061 --> 02:45:37,044
and what a great week to have. So best of luck with everybody, but, um, let's make

1852
02:45:37,044 --> 02:45:37,094
this work.

1853
02:45:43,022 --> 02:45:45,004
Get your sleep now. Yeah