[0:14] September 23 starting at September 23 starting at 09:09. So roll call. 09:09. So roll call. Commissioner Meyer? Commissioner Meyer? Here. Here. Commissioner Mobley? Here. Commissioner Mobley? Here. Commissioner Petrie on Zoom? Commissioner Petrie on Zoom? I’m here. I’m here. Commissioner Swanson is absent. Commissioner Swanson is absent. And excused. And excused. Commissioner Commissioner not here. not here. Asset.
[0:45] Asset. Chair Blair, here. Chair Blair, here. So So Missy, take it away. We’re gonna Missy, take it away. We’re gonna have have the only item on the agenda the only item on the agenda today today I’m aware of is this training on I’m aware of is this training on public meetings law. public meetings law.
[1:05] And And Max, are you gonna be Max, are you gonna be bringing up the slideshow? bringing up the slideshow? No. If you could share, Missy. I No. If you could share, Missy. I don’t have the slideshow. don’t have the slideshow. Okay. Let me take down all of my Okay.
[1:15] Let me take down all of my other other private things here. private things here. I don’t know Ronnie’s Outlook I don’t know Ronnie’s Outlook email. email. Okay. Okay. Now I’m terrible at sharing Now I’m terrible at sharing that, so you might have to work that, so you might have to work through this.
[1:25] Let me see if I through this. Let me see if I can find it. can find it. Okay. So here we go. Okay. So here we go. Screen. Screen. There. There. Okay. Okay. You see that? You see that? Yep. Great. Yep. Great.
[1:46] This is our training on public This is our training on public meetings and public meetings and public records as well as ethics laws records as well as ethics laws for the planning commission. for the planning commission. Happy to do this. I know we have Happy to do this.
[1:57] I know we have some sort of new planning some sort of new planning commissioners that are commissioners that are haven’t gone through necessarily haven’t gone through necessarily this training before. this training before. It is a requirement in Oregon It is a requirement in Oregon Oregon ethics commission that Oregon ethics commission that commissioners take a certified commissioners take a certified or accredited training at least or accredited training at least once during their term.
[2:08] once during their term. This is not certified or This is not certified or accredited accredited but I can but I can at the end of this, I can at the end of this, I can recommend some really excellent recommend some really excellent certified certified accredited ones.
[2:20] They are more accredited ones. They are more in the range of two hours. in the range of two hours. So, it’ll take a little bit more So, it’ll take a little bit more time, but time, but you can do it. You’re measuring you can do it. You’re measuring it as it as a self reporting a self reporting situation.
[2:29] situation. And please feel free to ask And please feel free to ask questions during the questions during the slide presentation if you don’t slide presentation if you don’t save them till the end. save them till the end.
[2:35] So what we’re going to talk So what we’re going to talk about in order are about in order are public meetings public meetings public records, and ethics and public records, and ethics and conflict in interest laws. conflict in interest laws.
[2:53] Are you able to see me Are you able to see me forwarding the slide? forwarding the slide? So So the statutorist came the statutorist came that covers this is in ORAZ that covers this is in ORAZ chapter one ninety two. chapter one ninety two. And in particular, public And in particular, public meetings laws are covered in one meetings laws are covered in one ninety two point six six eight. ninety two point six six eight. That That stat... Statutory scheme stat...
[3:08] Statutory scheme requires requires the planning commissioners to the planning commissioners to meet in public to make meet in public to make or deliberate towards new or deliberate towards new decisions. decisions. You might wonder who is subject You might wonder who is subject to the law. to the law. Well, it’s a governing body of a Well, it’s a governing body of a public body.
[3:22] public body. That does not mean only the city That does not mean only the city council for our elected council for our elected officials. It means all decision officials. It means all decision making bodies and advisory making bodies and advisory bodies bodies It does include the city It does include the city council. council.
[3:31] It includes the planning It includes the planning commission. commission. The budget committee, The budget committee, any subcommittee of the city any subcommittee of the city council that would be council that would be something like a a hiring something like a a hiring subcommittee that the city subcommittee that the city council forms. council forms.
[3:45] And citizen groups form to And citizen groups form to advise a public body. advise a public body. And those would be things like, And those would be things like, a parks advisory boards or a parks advisory boards or quite common. quite common. That’s when it comes to mind. That’s when it comes to mind. Charter Charter committee. committee.
[4:02] Do you have a question? Do you have a question? Like, the charter committee Like, the charter committee would be another another would be another another example. Another great one. example. Another great one. Right. The city council adopted Right.
[4:13] The city council adopted a resolution a resolution for for to form the charter Review to form the charter Review Committee My my recollection is Committee My my recollection is that they actually adopted a that they actually adopted a resolution that resolution that instructed the city manager to instructed the city manager to form that committee, so that’s form that committee, so that’s hiding the the front. But hiding the the front.
[4:20] But I would like to see the charter I would like to see the charter when you really did when you really did consider itself a public body. consider itself a public body. Okay. What’s a meeting? Okay. What’s a meeting? So what... I’ll tell you what So what...
[4:30] I’ll tell you what isn’t a meeting is when you’re isn’t a meeting is when you’re all getting together all getting together for a barbecue for a barbecue and there is no discussion and there is no discussion of public business. Really, the of public business. Really, the fourth of July parade is a great fourth of July parade is a great example. example.
[4:43] A meeting is the convening of a A meeting is the convening of a governing governing body. body. Of the public body Of the public body for which a quorum is required for which a quorum is required in order to make a decision or in order to make a decision or deliberate towards a decision deliberate towards a decision on any matter. And so on any matter.
[4:55] And so the key things there are the key things there are a board is required if you’re a board is required if you’re gonna make a decision gonna make a decision or talk about or talk about making a decision. making a decision. If that’s the situation, If that’s the situation, that must be that must be in a public place.
[5:07] in a public place. They have to be open to the They have to be open to the public. public. And And people have to be permitted to people have to be permitted to attend attend executive sessions with the executive sessions with the planning commission really planning commission really doesn’t have because
[5:18] doesn’t have because your your scope of authority is your your scope of authority is you know, narrowed to planning you know, narrowed to planning matters. matters. All meetings also now after the All meetings also now after the pandemic must provide an... A pandemic must provide an... A Zoom on Zoom on option or a telephone option.
[5:31] option or a telephone option. And And the meeting should not proceed the meeting should not proceed if that if that Zoom or telephone option can’t Zoom or telephone option can’t be provided. be provided. A quorum can’t meet in private. A quorum can’t meet in private.
[5:47] The quorum is The quorum is for for for the, the planning for the, the planning commission. Even though there’s commission. Even though there’s a vacancy, it’s still four. a vacancy, it’s still four. May not be the private for the May not be the private for the purpose of deciding purpose of deciding on or deliberating towards a on or deliberating towards a decision on any matter.
[5:56] decision on any matter. And where this gets a little bit And where this gets a little bit tricky is tricky is when we have an accidental when we have an accidental quorum. And so quorum.
[6:04] And so you know, perhaps four of you you know, perhaps four of you end up in Aisle 4 of the end up in Aisle 4 of the Safeway. Safeway. That is fine. That is not a That is fine. That is not a quorum because quorum because no discussion going on right no discussion going on right now. You’re only discussing now. You’re only discussing which pasta to buy. which pasta to buy.
[6:13] You’re not discussing You’re not discussing public business. public business. But if a citizen approaches you But if a citizen approaches you they wanna talk to you about they wanna talk to you about public business, public business, that would that would all of a sudden trigger the all of a sudden trigger the public meetings laws.
[6:25] public meetings laws. Because there would be a core of Because there would be a core of an idol core. an idol core. I would suggest that you tell I would suggest that you tell that public citizen that you’re that public citizen that you’re not able to talk to them. not able to talk to them. In aisle four.
[6:40] In aisle four. This is the next slide. When is This is the next slide. When is a public meeting convened? a public meeting convened? If you gather in a physical If you gather in a physical location, let’s say, for location, let’s say, for example, example, if you use if you use electronic technology to
[6:51] electronic technology to communicate contemporaneously, communicate contemporaneously, So a public meeting can occur So a public meeting can occur if if there’s a... An email to more there’s a... An email to more than four a minimum of four than four a minimum of four planning commissioners, planning commissioners, that involves that involves a a planning commission matter.
[7:08] a a planning commission matter. Uses serial or electronic Uses serial or electronic written communication, or uses written communication, or uses an intermediary to communicate. an intermediary to communicate. And I’ll go through And I’ll go through one of those on subsequent one of those on subsequent slides. slides.
[7:17] The others in a physical The others in a physical location is location is is certainly, you know, is certainly, you know, potentially the most potentially the most straightforward straightforward We have some exceptions carved We have some exceptions carved out here. out here.
[7:32] Communications between or among Communications between or among members members the planning commission that are the planning commission that are factual or educational in nature factual or educational in nature and and that convey no deliberation or that convey no deliberation or decision decision on any matter on any matter the great example is a holiday the great example is a holiday gathering where no business is
[7:47] gathering where no business is city business is conducted. city business is conducted. Also, fourth of July parade, it Also, fourth of July parade, it was assumed that was assumed that no city business would be no city business would be discussed, with more... A forum discussed, with more...
[7:54] A forum of either city councilors or of either city councilors or plan commissioners. plan commissioners. If it’s not related to any If it’s not related to any matter that could reasonably be matter that could reasonably be foreseen foreseen come before the governing body come before the governing body for deliberation decision. for deliberation decision.
[8:10] So here, So here, planning commissioners may planning commissioners may meet and discuss nonplanning meet and discuss nonplanning city city business city city business with each other. That is not with each other. That is not going to violate going to violate the public meeting’s law. the public meeting’s law.
[8:20] That would be things That would be things though, I I would though, I I would be cautious about that because be cautious about that because even the most, even the most, straightforward straightforward even a straightforward of the even a straightforward of the discussion of the budget could discussion of the budget could potentially impact potentially impact impinge on impinge on planning commission business if
[8:34] planning commission business if the if the budget touches on a the if the budget touches on a plan plan a planning commission matter, a planning commission matter, that would be something like that would be something like example, if in next year’s example, if in next year’s budget, there is a sum of money
[8:41] budget, there is a sum of money for for Max to work on Max to work on housekeeping amendments to housekeeping amendments to the city’s the city’s zoning code. zoning code. Those are going to come before Those are going to come before the planning commission. the planning commission.
[8:55] And then we have communication And then we have communication related to scheduling. related to scheduling. Leaves of absence, and other Leaves of absence, and other similar matters are also similar matters are also excluded. So in my example, I excluded.
[9:06] So in my example, I have social gatherings, have social gatherings, but a caution and a but a caution and a and advice to not discuss any and advice to not discuss any business. And I understand that business. And I understand that that is really hard that is really hard particularly in in particularly in in you know, tight communities. you know, tight communities. Like King City. Like King City.
[9:17] The next one is The next one is it’s a little trickier, uses it’s a little trickier, uses electronic video or telephonic electronic video or telephonic technology to communicate technology to communicate contemporaneously. contemporaneously.
[9:27] This is where you don’t wanna This is where you don’t wanna send an email send an email that involves city business to that involves city business to all of the all of the planning commissioners. planning commissioners.
[9:39] You don’t want to reply all to You don’t want to reply all to an email from city staff because an email from city staff because you’ll engage in a public you’ll engage in a public meeting without the required meeting without the required advance notice. advance notice.
[9:50] So if Max is forwarding So if Max is forwarding something to you that’s a matter something to you that’s a matter of substance that is before the of substance that is before the planning commission, planning commission, He is sending that to you for He is sending that to you for informational purposes only, and informational purposes only, and probably his email would say, probably his email would say, please don’t reply all to avoid please don’t reply all to avoid violating public meetings laws. violating public meetings laws. Right? That’s probably Right? That’s probably Yeah. Alright.
[10:01] Just Yeah. Alright. Just usually just be CC. usually just be CC. All the planning commissioners. All the planning commissioners. Okay. That’s another great way Okay. That’s another great way to do it. to do it. Okay. Okay. Does anyone have any questions Does anyone have any questions about that? about that? I I do. So Yes.
[10:15] You know, on the I I do. So Yes. You know, on the last slide, you were talking last slide, you were talking about, you know, meetings in about, you know, meetings in physical location. physical location. So... And then your list of So... And then your list of examples there. So examples there.
[10:24] So according to that slide, how according to that slide, how would this training be a would this training be a meeting? meeting? Because it’s not talking about Because it’s not talking about anything specific. anything specific. To To know, planning commission know, planning commission business. business.
[10:36] Well, planning commission Well, planning commission training training to the planning commission about to the planning commission about public gains laws public gains laws is broadly planning commission is broadly planning commission business because it’s such a business because it’s such a trining that is trining that is important for you to have. important for you to have.
[10:49] So just like a training on, So just like a training on, we’re gonna do a land use we’re gonna do a land use land use training, land use training, that will also be, you know, that will also be, you know, planning commission business. planning commission business. Well, I’m just focusing, like, Well, I’m just focusing, like, deliberation or decision making.
[10:56] deliberation or decision making. So So you know, you know, Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That... That’s a good Yeah. That... That’s a good point. There probably is a point. There probably is a workaround there. workaround there. Yeah. I’m I’m just, you know, Yeah. I’m I’m just, you know, looking...
[11:08] Because it’s such a looking... Because it’s such a gray area. gray area. So many cases. Right? It’s like So many cases. Right? It’s like you know? you know? Right? I mean, you laugh because Right? I mean, you laugh because it’s it’s true. Right? Because it’s it’s true.
[11:17] Right? Because it is it is tough sometimes it is it is tough sometimes to go, okay. Is this something to go, okay. Is this something that that you know, we need to be careful you know, we need to be careful of? Yeah. So what is My answer of? Yeah.
[11:25] So what is My answer is is My observation of the city since My observation of the city since I, you know, I, you know, came on board is that I’m happy came on board is that I’m happy to see that the city is to see that the city is pretty cautious and Ronnie in pretty cautious and Ronnie in particular particular is is I think, appropriately cautious
[11:36] I think, appropriately cautious about making sure that, you about making sure that, you know, meetings are noticed and know, meetings are noticed and and not not having a quorum. and not not having a quorum. We’re we’re we’re pretty shell We’re we’re we’re pretty shell shocked over the last shocked over the last few years.
[11:43] Right? I mean, there few years. Right? I mean, there was a lot of was a lot of a lot of business. Right? So a lot of business. Right? So so one of the one of the so one of the one of the questions I do have is, like, questions I do have is, like, a planning commission is talking
[11:53] a planning commission is talking about maybe counsel related, about maybe counsel related, issues Mhmm. issues Mhmm. If the planning commission is If the planning commission is not talking about planning not talking about planning commission business, but commission business, but let’s say there’s a quorum let’s say there’s a quorum that’s talking about that’s talking about council business.
[12:02] council business. Is that an issue? Is that an issue? Probably not. It would depend on Probably not. It would depend on the issues. I’m I’m trying to the issues.
[12:19] I’m I’m trying to think back to think back to last couple of council meetings, last couple of council meetings, and there was a and there was a there was a presentation by there was a presentation by commissioner Snyder... commissioner Snyder... Commissioner Jason Snyder on, Commissioner Jason Snyder on, something to do with Washington something to do with Washington was about? was about? I think it was gonna be a tax I think it was gonna be a tax increase.
[12:24] increase. Yeah. I believe it a levy or Yeah. I believe it a levy or something. something. A levy. Okay. So that is a good A levy. Okay.
[12:34] So that is a good example of example of that’s not related to planning that’s not related to planning commission business, and that commission business, and that will never ever come before the will never ever come before the planning commission. planning commission. That would be perfectly fine to That would be perfectly fine to talk about. talk about. A group of planning A group of planning commissioners in Aisle 4 can commissioners in Aisle 4 can talk about that.
[12:40] talk about that. Yes. Okay. Alright. Yes. Okay. Alright. So the sand So the sand and it’s be... This is because and it’s be... This is because the city council had some the city council had some different different rules because everything is rules because everything is technically... All city business technically...
[12:52] All city business is technically city council is technically city council business. Right. business. Right. But because you’re planning But because you’re planning commissioners, your scope of commissioners, your scope of authority authority is smaller. Right. is smaller. Right. Okay. Okay. Thank you. So so, let’s say, Thank you. So so, let’s say, example that comes to my mind...
[13:03] example that comes to my mind... Question that comes to my mind Question that comes to my mind is is this particular this particular planning commission is planning commission is I’ve noted is I’ve noted is very involved very involved and it’s and it’s not unheard of not unheard of for us to have for us to have a quorum
[13:17] a quorum observing a city council observing a city council meeting. meeting. Mhmm. Mhmm. Where, obviously, city business Where, obviously, city business is being talked about. is being talked about.
[13:32] And And city business that city business that could come back to us could come back to us is is does that count as a quorum if does that count as a quorum if we’re observing we’re observing a city council meeting a city council meeting for four or more of us. for four or more of us. Thank you, sir. That is Thank you, sir. That is that is a quorum. And I I have that is a quorum.
[13:44] And I I have not not I wanna pay better attention I wanna pay better attention because you asked that question. because you asked that question. But But I have not observed the I have not observed the quorum quorum in the city council meeting in the city council meeting where a particular item that where a particular item that might be
[13:57] might be before the planning commission before the planning commission is discussed. But what I would is discussed. But what I would say is it’s say is it’s totally appropriate to totally appropriate to attend your city council attend your city council meetings meetings But if But if there is an agenda item there is an agenda item that is
[14:05] that is going to come before going to come before the planning commission I would the planning commission I would work it out among you so that work it out among you so that somebody steps out of the room. somebody steps out of the room.
[14:16] So the TSP is hot and So the TSP is hot and hot item right now. hot item right now. And that’s something that’s a And that’s something that’s a planning commission. It could be planning commission. It could be a planning commission. Well, it a planning commission. Well, it will be. It will be.
[14:26] So will be. It will be. So if there are four of us in the if there are four of us in the room and they’re talking about room and they’re talking about the TSP, which is on the TSP, which is on every agenda now, every agenda now, Right? Right? Because there’s an update on the
[14:30] Because there’s an update on the TSP. TSP. Mhmm. Then that’s I would say the Then that’s I would say the chairs and really maybe decide chairs and really maybe decide who’s gonna step out. Okay. who’s gonna step out. Okay. So... Yeah. So... Because that’s So... Yeah. So... Because that’s that’s that’s happened.
[15:09] I’m that’s that’s happened. I’m pretty sure it’s probably pretty sure it’s probably happened. Mhmm. So I haven’t happened. Mhmm. So I haven’t noticed. Yeah. But that... noticed. Yeah. But that... Maybe... I don’t know. Maybe Maybe... I don’t know.
[15:13] Maybe with with this group, I’m not with with this group, I’m not That when they That when they they do talk about TSP or or they do talk about TSP or or planning commission matters that planning commission matters that they they look around the room, look around the room, and... Or and... Or just verbally say, do we Just just verbally say, do we Just Right. What the heads up.
[15:27] Many Right. What the heads up. Many planning commissioners do we planning commissioners do we have you know, right now in in have you know, right now in in the room or online. Right? Yeah. the room or online. Right? Yeah.
[15:30] present, then that would be present, then that would be of the planning commission, of the planning commission, that’s perfectly fine for you to that’s perfectly fine for you to take that on. And the take that on.
[15:41] And the the reason I’m hesitant to say the reason I’m hesitant to say it’s the mayor’s or it’s the mayor’s or council president’s council president’s responsibility is because this responsibility is because this is really a planning commission is really a planning commission situation. situation. And it’s not really the city And it’s not really the city council’s job to monitor council’s job to monitor Okay. Planning commission public Okay. Planning commission public meetings compliance. It’s meetings compliance. It’s really the planning commissions.
[15:51] really the planning commissions. Nice to identify what the rules Nice to identify what the rules are. So Yeah. How we’re gonna are. So Yeah. How we’re gonna manage that. manage that. Okay. Thank you. So, you know, I Okay. Thank you.
[15:58] So, you know, I would say would say planning commission chair planning commission chair planning commission vice chair, planning commission vice chair, and then we’re getting down to and then we’re getting down to you know, you still could have you know, you still could have four without the two of you four without the two of you there. Mhmm. there. Mhmm. And And I I just would I I just would encourage you to figure it out.
[16:12] encourage you to figure it out. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. We And this is not this is Yeah. We And this is not this is not uncommon. You know, we not uncommon.
[16:19] You know, we represent some represent some cities that have design review cities that have design review boards and boards and it’s it’s you know, you know, design review boards and then design review boards and then playing commission boards or playing commission boards or of our cities have historic of our cities have historic resources commissions. And so resources commissions.
[16:31] And so this does happen where there’s this does happen where there’s cross pollination between cross pollination between boards and commissions. boards and commissions. Because people are interested in Because people are interested in what’s going on, and that’s a what’s going on, and that’s a good thing. good thing.
[16:41] We also have the flip side We also have the flip side where we’ve got a number of where we’ve got a number of counselors that are attending counselors that are attending planning commission meetings. planning commission meetings. That is also a problem. That is also a problem. Yes. So So I actually think, Yes.
[16:52] So So I actually think, though, that the council though, that the council you know, is fully staffed at you know, is fully staffed at seven. I think that seven. I think that the council is more aware of the council is more aware of quorum quorum but I do think that, but I do think that, it’s worth a mention it’s worth a mention to make sure that if there’s
[17:03] to make sure that if there’s that there’s never four of them that there’s never four of them in the room at the same time. in the room at the same time. Yeah. And Yeah. And planning commission meeting. planning commission meeting. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. We’re we’re back to emails. We’re we’re back to emails. Don’t reply all.
[17:17] Don’t reply all. That’s my advice on that. So That’s my advice on that. So serial meetings are a a hot serial meetings are a a hot Ethics. Commission. They’re they issued Commission. They’re they issued with the quorum of the governing with the quorum of the governing body. body.
[17:50] So I wanna emphasize this is So I wanna emphasize this is true. Even though at no time true. Even though at no time does a does a core core communicate contemporaneously communicate contemporaneously about this topic, about this topic, So I have a couple fun examples So I have a couple fun examples here, which I here, which I literally plagiarized from the
[18:01] literally plagiarized from the training I did with the council training I did with the council at Cole. at Cole. Months ago. Months ago. So we have So we have commissioner a calling commissioner a calling commissioner b asking them, commissioner b asking them, well, how are you thinking about well, how are you thinking about voting?
[18:11] voting? On this zone change? On this zone change? Then commissioner c, Then commissioner c, walks into commissioner d, walks into commissioner d, again, in Aisle 4. again, in Aisle 4. And discusses the zone change And discusses the zone change hearing. hearing. Then Then commissioner b and commissioner commissioner b and commissioner sorry.
[18:29] Commissioner a sends a sorry. Commissioner a sends a text message to commissioner b text message to commissioner b and discusses how they’re and discusses how they’re considering voting. considering voting. In this example, the Oregon In this example, the Oregon Government Ethics Commission Government Ethics Commission most likely would consider a most likely would consider a serial serial public meeting to have occurred
[18:38] public meeting to have occurred in violation of the in violation of the public meetings laws. public meetings laws. This is This is even though even though no one really knows what the no one really knows what the other people are talking about. other people are talking about.
[18:51] The policy reason for this is The policy reason for this is that the OGE that the OGE got got frustrated with frustrated with a particular situation in Lane a particular situation in Lane County with the Lane County County with the Lane County Board of Commissioners where Board of Commissioners where this situation was happening this situation was happening and there was, no
[19:06] and there was, no contemporaneous contemporaneous communication, but it still was communication, but it still was communication about how everyone communication about how everyone was going to vote on a was going to vote on a certain... certain... Matter. Matter.
[19:15] And so they issued some And so they issued some pretty severe guidance pretty severe guidance about about don’t do that. don’t do that. The next one is a lot more The next one is a lot more common where we have common where we have somebody posting a comment on somebody posting a comment on Nextdoor about an upcoming land Nextdoor about an upcoming land use hearing. use hearing.
[19:29] If that generates the If that generates the discussion... A discussion discussion... A discussion three of you three of you make comments on that post. make comments on that post. Or thread or whatever it’s Or thread or whatever it’s caled, and that the fourth caled, and that the fourth comments and also makes comments and also makes the comment.
[19:42] the comment. The Oregon government ethics The Oregon government ethics commission would also consider commission would also consider this to be a serial public this to be a serial public meeting. meeting. It is about a matter that is It is about a matter that is coming coming that is that is planning commission business.
[19:53] planning commission business. Use... Using an intermediary is Use... Using an intermediary is is is really exactly what the really exactly what the situation was in Lane County situation was in Lane County this is a violation of the this is a violation of the public meetings laws. public meetings laws.
[20:11] In this situation, In this situation, this is an okay situation. this is an okay situation. City manager wants to talk to City manager wants to talk to each of you about whether each of you about whether application fees should be application fees should be increased. increased.
[20:26] He doesn’t convey any He doesn’t convey any information that he receives information that he receives he or she receives to the other he or she receives to the other members of the planning members of the planning comission. comission. But he does generate a staff But he does generate a staff report report to come before the planning to come before the planning commission. commission.
[20:34] The application fee is The application fee is considered considered when the city manager presents when the city manager presents the staff report the staff report You all talk about it, and you You all talk about it, and you determine the fee amount. determine the fee amount.
[20:46] Really, it would be a Really, it would be a recommendation to the city recommendation to the city council. council. This is okay because the city This is okay because the city manager is gathering information manager is gathering information but he is not conveying but he is not conveying each commissioner’s opinion on each commissioner’s opinion on the matter the matter to the other commissioners.
[20:56] to the other commissioners. The reason this is okay is The reason this is okay is because because all had an open debate about the all had an open debate about the fee fee at the meeting. at the meeting. Not a private debate with the Not a private debate with the city manager.
[21:08] city manager. The... This next situation is The... This next situation is where it gets where it gets be a problem. be a problem. And that is in using an And that is in using an intermediary intermediary to share information with other to share information with other commissioners about what each of
[21:22] commissioners about what each of the other commissioners are the other commissioners are thinking. thinking. I’ll I’ll kinda let you read I’ll I’ll kinda let you read through that slide, but we have through that slide, but we have the same situation the same situation But the city manager here, she
[21:31] But the city manager here, she is talking to the chair. is talking to the chair. The chair proposes, I think, a The chair proposes, I think, a 10% fee increase across the 10% fee increase across the board. board. Necessary. We need revenue. Necessary. We need revenue.
[21:43] The city manager then The city manager then talks to commissioners to talks to commissioners to through through six. six. About the chair’s suggestion. About the chair’s suggestion. One of the commissioners says, One of the commissioners says, I’m I’m 5% increase, and the city 5% increase, and the city manager then manager then talks to the other commissioners talks to the other commissioners about each of those
[21:57] about each of those increases. increases. You can see where this is going. You can see where this is going. This is using an intermediary This is using an intermediary acting as an intermediary. acting as an intermediary. And that does violate the public And that does violate the public meetings law. meetings law.
[22:16] This is very unlikely to happen This is very unlikely to happen because my observation, again, because my observation, again, of King City is that of King City is that it has implemented it has implemented a lot of a lot of best practices best practices and it and it and exercises caution. and exercises caution.
[22:28] And And it is it is very very interested in following the law. interested in following the law. So I’m not too concerned about So I’m not too concerned about this situation. But I wanna put this situation. But I wanna put it up there. it up there. I’m gonna go ahead unless anyone I’m gonna go ahead unless anyone has questions. has questions. Question about intermediary.
[22:38] Question about intermediary. Yes. Yes. As you know, this is a very As you know, this is a very tight community. tight community. Right? And we have a lot of very Right? And we have a lot of very engaged citizens. engaged citizens. Mhmm. A spouse then could be Mhmm.
[22:50] A spouse then could be considered an considered an intermediary then. Correct? intermediary then. Correct? Because Because there’s a lot of That’s there’s a lot of That’s lot of discussion, and sometimes lot of discussion, and sometimes the spouse gets brought in. the spouse gets brought in.
[23:05] Then if that spouse then Then if that spouse then communicates to communicates to you know, you know, their their their spouse, you know, that’s their spouse, you know, that’s on the commissioner of the on the commissioner of the council. council. Then that’s considered in. Then that’s considered in. Obviously. That is correct. Obviously. That is correct.
[23:15] That’s, like, actually a really That’s, like, actually a really good example good example I think that the thing to keep I think that the thing to keep in mind is that, in mind is that, when you accept appointments when you accept appointments with the planning commission, with the planning commission, it’s a hefty responsibility it’s a hefty responsibility And And you are, in many ways, you are, in many ways, setting aside
[23:28] setting aside you know, some of your personal you know, some of your personal relationships or your relationships or your personal communication personal communication templates. templates.
[23:43] And And the answer really does need to the answer really does need to be be I’m I’m really don’t feel comfortable really don’t feel comfortable talking about this matter talking about this matter because I want to make sure that because I want to make sure that I follow I follow the the the law. the law. And that is a perfectly okay And that is a perfectly okay thing to say. thing to say.
[23:55] Many people who don’t want to do Many people who don’t want to do that, though, maybe have to that, though, maybe have to rethink rethink about whether they’re really about whether they’re really maybe their public service would maybe their public service would be be better served in a different better served in a different capacity. capacity.
[24:05] So I have a very So I have a very I’m sure. I’m sure. Well, I was just gonna ask. So I Well, I was just gonna ask. So I in that last example, in that last example, the Internet the Internet is that because the city manager is that because the city manager is getting is getting exact opinions, and those
[24:21] exact opinions, and those opinions are then getting opinions are then getting discussed amongst discussed amongst individuals, but it’s not in a individuals, but it’s not in a public public like, meeting forum. Like, is like, meeting forum. Like, is that why? that why? Yes. It’s it’s because the city Yes.
[24:31] It’s it’s because the city manager is manager is gathering gathering gathering all the commissioners’ gathering all the commissioners’ different different thoughts on a matter that is thoughts on a matter that is then going to be brought up at a then going to be brought up at a public meeting and public meeting and she is sharing those thoughts
[24:46] she is sharing those thoughts Okay. So she is essentially Okay. So she is essentially conducting conducting noncontemporaneous negotiations noncontemporaneous negotiations or sharing information with the or sharing information with the commissioners. And the ultimate commissioners.
[24:58] And the ultimate goal here is that goal here is that these take place in public these take place in public where the public has a chance to where the public has a chance to weigh in. weigh in. Okay. And then Or at least the Okay. And then Or at least the public has a chance to observe. public has a chance to observe. The commissioners. The commissioners.
[25:08] So so then using So so then using understanding that going back to understanding that going back to the next door the next door example, example, Mhmm. I would think that Mhmm.
[25:19] I would think that I can’t think of any time, like, I can’t think of any time, like, while sitting in this chair that while sitting in this chair that I would make a post on next I would make a post on next door, but you’re saying any door, but you’re saying any public citizen that makes a public citizen that makes a post. And then if post.
[25:28] And then if we’re we’re all reading that post or all reading that post or I would think reading it would I would think reading it would be one thing, but actually be one thing, but actually making comments making comments And then there’s It’s the And then there’s It’s the making comments. That’s right. making comments. That’s right. Okay. Okay.
[25:38] I’m just trying to And this is I’m just trying to And this is surprising. I mean, I know that surprising. I mean, I know that this is surprising, and this this is surprising, and this this is another Oregon this is another Oregon government ethics government ethics commission maybe commission maybe five years ago. Really, they five years ago.
[25:45] Really, they start clamping down on start clamping down on these ways of these ways of pub... Public officials pub... Public officials communicating with each other communicating with each other outside of a public meeting. outside of a public meeting.
[25:59] I mean, I think is a really good I mean, I think is a really good example because, you know, when example because, you know, when you have four plans you have four plans commissioners and they’re all on commissioners and they’re all on a thread and they’re sharing a thread and they’re sharing their their personal views about personal views about planning commission matter. planning commission matter. That is essentially a public That is essentially a public meeting. meeting. Mhmm.
[26:08] Mhmm. Okay. Okay. I’ve seen examples like that. I I’ve seen examples like that. I was just was just I thought I wanted to make sure I thought I wanted to make sure I was understanding the the the I was understanding the the the the council member or the the council member or the commissioner wasn’t the one
[26:20] commissioner wasn’t the one actually starting the post. actually starting the post. Like, that wouldn’t... It Like, that wouldn’t... It wouldn’t be wouldn’t be be something we would do, but, I be something we would do, but, I mean, not to say somebody hasn’t mean, not to say somebody hasn’t done it in the past.
[26:29] done it in the past. But but even if it was just just But but even if it was just just anybody in the public, anybody in the public, that’s what I wanted to clarify. that’s what I wanted to clarify. Alright. Thank you. So now we Alright. Thank you. So now we got a bunch of questions. Sorry.
[26:38] got a bunch of questions. Sorry. Okay. So you’ve got a counselor. Okay. So you’ve got a counselor. That represents himself as on That represents himself as on the... On the city council. the... On the city council. That contributes an article to a That contributes an article to a community newsletter. community newsletter.
[26:50] And gives his opinions on And gives his opinions on things. Right? things. Right? How would that not be How would that not be a potential a potential problem? problem? It’s because it’s not a back and It’s because it’s not a back and forth. forth. Okay. So the Okay.
[27:05] So the I guess the way to maybe keep it I guess the way to maybe keep it in your mind is that there has in your mind is that there has to be two way I to be two way I essentially two way essentially two way communication. So if one communication.
[27:11] So if one person’s sharing out something, person’s sharing out something, that person is just sharing that person is just sharing their opinion. their opinion. Okay. Okay. So if she is So if she is you know, you know, on and on and and and starts a Facebook post and starts a Facebook post and don’t... And that’s don’t... And that’s that’s the post.
[27:25] Right? Or I that’s the post. Right? Or I think that was your example. think that was your example. I can’t remember. I can’t remember. That in itself is not That in itself is not a problem. That is not a public a problem. That is not a public meeting. But it...
[27:33] That person meeting. But it... That person can be swept into a can be swept into a public meeting’s fault public meeting’s fault violation, violation, depending on depending on who responds to the threat. who responds to the threat.
[27:45] And then so there are other And then so there are other like, three more city councilors like, three more city councilors on there responding to this on there responding to this Facebook threat. I Facebook threat. I Okay. This is likely a public Okay. This is likely a public meeting. Got it. meeting. Got it. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So another So another that popped in here.
[27:53] One great that popped in here. One great way to think about it is way to think about it is really try not to post. Right. really try not to post. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. So So alright. alright. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. Okay.
[28:08] The TSP, of course, is a huge The TSP, of course, is a huge subject. subject. And so a lot of us are And so a lot of us are personally invested personally invested as well as being, you know, on as well as being, you know, on the commission. So we have to be the commission.
[28:17] So we have to be careful careful about, of course. When it comes about, of course. When it comes to decision making and to decision making and deliberation, you know, about deliberation, you know, about know, declaring potential know, declaring potential conflict or actual conflict conflict or actual conflict We’re gonna talk about that. And We’re gonna talk about that. And whatnot.
[28:25] But But whatnot. But But so during the TSP open house, so during the TSP open house, I had prepared some... Okay. So I had prepared some... Okay. So commissioner, I do... So commissioner, I do...
[28:39] So I wanna stay away from I wanna stay away from actual real life examples actual real life examples because because this agenda is for training, and this agenda is for training, and there’s nothing on the agenda there’s nothing on the agenda about the TSP. So I don’t wanna about the TSP.
[28:47] So I don’t wanna give give if you can give me a a if you can give me a a hypothetical example hypothetical example Okay. Hypothetical. We could Okay. Hypothetical. We could talk about that. talk about that. Hypothetical, I give my personal Hypothetical, I give my personal opinions about a matter. opinions about a matter. To the city manager. To the city manager. Is that Is that okay? Because No problem. okay? Because No problem. Okay.
[28:59] Because he he wouldn’t Okay. Because he he wouldn’t accept it. accept it. It. Well, I don’t... I’m not It. Well, I don’t... I’m not gonna get into this. gonna get into this. This is... That sounds like it’s This is... That sounds like it’s not a hypothetical. not a hypothetical. So... Okay. So... Okay. Okay.
[29:12] Well, I guess you answered Okay. Well, I guess you answered my question because, he he can my question because, he he can accept accept Hypothetically, he could accept Hypothetically, he could accept a personal opinion information a personal opinion information from from me as a me as a so... Yeah. I mean... Okay. so... Yeah. I mean... Okay. By email, by by talking. The...
[29:27] By email, by by talking. The... So the the planning So the the planning commission has some commission has some other challenges, right, with other challenges, right, with conflicts of interest, but conflicts of interest, but people do share people do share you know, you can you know, you can share your opinions with any
[29:38] share your opinions with any members of the members of the staff. Of staff? Okay. I think staff. Of staff? Okay. I think the issue is that when the issue is that when know, you share an opinion with know, you share an opinion with the city recorder about the city recorder about something,
[29:48] something, I know him. And in the back of I know him. And in the back of his head, he’s his head, he’s thinking, thinking, I don’t wanna accidentally walk I don’t wanna accidentally walk into a serial meeting. into a serial meeting. Mhmm. Because all of these Mhmm.
[29:58] Because all of these people are talking to me about people are talking to me about something. And so I might just something. And so I might just listen, but I might not respond. listen, but I might not respond. Okay. Okay. Because they’re they’re Because they’re they’re cautious. cautious. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. I’m I’m gonna circle back. Okay. I’m I’m gonna circle back.
[30:14] To To say, say, planning commissioner states an planning commissioner states an opinion opinion in a in a public or semi public forum public or semi public forum on something, and and we on something, and and we determined determined that’s okay. that’s okay.
[30:35] When When other other commissioners start weighing in commissioners start weighing in is it is it the fourth commissioner that has the fourth commissioner that has committed committed the violation the violation Or... It’s all of them. Or... It’s all of them. All of them. So when you All of them.
[30:48] So when you when you when you state state an opinion on an issue that an opinion on an issue that we can do... That we’ll be we can do... That we’ll be dealing with. dealing with. You’re setting yourself up You’re setting yourself up potentially potentially to be in violation to be in violation out of your own control. out of your own control. Yes. Yes. K.
[31:00] This is the Oregon government K. This is the Oregon government ethics ethics commission’s position. commission’s position. And it’s... I mean, I will tell And it’s... I mean, I will tell you, it’s controversial because you, it’s controversial because a lot of people a lot of people feel like it’s kind of feel like it’s kind of entrapment and how could I know.
[31:13] entrapment and how could I know. If this was gonna happen? I If this was gonna happen? I didn’t know when I made this didn’t know when I made this post. post.
[31:19] That three other commissioners That three other commissioners were going to chime in were going to chime in and create a public meeting in and create a public meeting in violation of the violation of the public meetings law. And OGAC is public meetings law. And OGAC is basically unsympathetic basically unsympathetic Okay. Good. That’s good to know. Okay. Good. That’s good to know. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. That’s a tough one. Yeah. That’s a tough one. Yeah.
[31:31] Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s hard. It’s Yeah. You know, it’s hard. It’s it’s it’s a difficult situation. it’s it’s a difficult situation. I’m gonna go on to here. Okay. I’m gonna go on to here. Okay. So let’s talk about liability. So let’s talk about liability.
[31:43] So So we know any person can file a we know any person can file a complaint complaint complaint with OGEC for a public complaint with OGEC for a public meeting, law violation meeting, law violation This liability is personal, and This liability is personal, and OGEC might investigate, find a OGEC might investigate, find a violation, violation, penalties up to $1,000 per penalties up to $1,000 per violation.
[31:58] violation. Importantly, public money may Importantly, public money may not be used to not be used to pay the penalty, pay the penalty, Also importantly, the city Also importantly, the city is is not, going to be not, going to be defending defending individuals individuals in their in their response to the public meetings
[32:16] response to the public meetings law violation. The city does law violation. The city does have to respond on behalf of the have to respond on behalf of the city. city.
[32:24] To a public meetings law To a public meetings law allegation, but sometimes the allegation, but sometimes the interest of interest of individual public officials individual public officials differ from differ from the city’s interest? the city’s interest? And one example would be if the And one example would be if the city has to respond and they city has to respond and they take a look at the facts and take a look at the facts and they say,
[32:36] they say, we are going to admit that a we are going to admit that a public meetings law violation public meetings law violation occurred. occurred. That may be not consistent with That may be not consistent with how individual commissioners how individual commissioners that are that are the subject of the complaint
[32:46] the subject of the complaint would prefer that the city would prefer that the city responds. responds. Generally, OGAC, I mean, I’m Generally, OGAC, I mean, I’m gonna say they do start gonna say they do start very soft. They may issue a very soft. They may issue a letter of reprimands.
[33:00] They may letter of reprimands. They may issue a letter of explanation. issue a letter of explanation. And most And most often, they often, they issue is issue is education and training education and training requirement, which you’re requirement, which you’re already gonna do. already gonna do.
[33:13] Because I’m gonna send you the Because I’m gonna send you the link to the two hour So you have link to the two hour So you have some really excellent questions. some really excellent questions.
[33:22] The main The main main danger is that the court main danger is that the court might be able to invalidate might be able to invalidate certain decision certain decision This is a very high This is a very high burden to overcome burden to overcome in statute. in statute.
[33:34] I don’t wanna spend a ton of I don’t wanna spend a ton of time talking about it time talking about it I can’t think of a circumstance I can’t think of a circumstance where that has ever actually where that has ever actually happened, but it is a tool that happened, but it is a tool that the legislature kept in the the legislature kept in the statute. statute.
[33:46] So So I know it’s easy to think about I know it’s easy to think about the parade of horribles. That’s the parade of horribles. That’s my job. my job. Okay. So this is just a summary Okay. So this is just a summary again. again.
[33:56] Refrain from physical gatherings Refrain from physical gatherings and serial communications and serial communications via email, face to face, via email, face to face, or Facebook and Nextdoor. or Facebook and Nextdoor. This is This is very easy to put on a PowerPoint very easy to put on a PowerPoint slide, and it’s slide, and it’s much more difficult in practice. much more difficult in practice. I wanna acknowledge that.
[34:10] I wanna acknowledge that. Don’t try to use staff or under Don’t try to use staff or under other other individuals as intermediaries. individuals as intermediaries. And definitely refrain refrain And definitely refrain refrain from using reply all. from using reply all.
[34:19] So So three kind of three kind of things to keep in mind as you’re things to keep in mind as you’re going forward. going forward. K. K. Public records, just wanted to Public records, just wanted to be clear that be clear that public records are any writing public records are any writing containing information relating containing information relating to the conduct of the to the conduct of the public’s business.
[34:32] public’s business. This is very broad This is very broad and has... This definition has and has... This definition has kept up a little bit with kept up a little bit with technology. technology. And is into the twenty first And is into the twenty first century. century. Although it does still talk Although it does still talk about facsimile.
[34:48] about facsimile. Just wanna be clear. Notes that Just wanna be clear. Notes that you take during a planning you take during a planning commission meeting commission meeting text that you send during a text that you send during a planning commission meeting, planning commission meeting, that relate to official city that relate to official city business,
[34:57] business, For example, if you’re texting For example, if you’re texting with someone during the planning with someone during the planning commission meeting about commission meeting about the meeting, what is before the meeting, what is before that, that is a public that, that is a public record. record.
[35:08] Those are not limited Those are not limited to records if you have a city to records if you have a city issued device. And this means issued device. And this means that that I can’t remember. Do you all get I can’t remember. Do you all get issued iPads issued iPads Or Or No.
[35:15] Is this We got phones, No. Is this We got phones, though. though. Didn’t you? Didn’t you? No. Just the emails. No. Just the emails. Just the emails. Okay. Just the emails. Okay. So in this matter, I just... My So in this matter, I just...
[35:26] My advice is to keep advice is to keep so if you’re gonna be sending an so if you’re gonna be sending an email email you know, that’s a public you know, that’s a public records or records or something like that. something like that. Keep it separate, and I would Keep it separate, and I would say separate it even by subject say separate it even by subject title. title.
[35:40] Don’t talk about personal things Don’t talk about personal things in it, you know, so you’re in it, you know, so you’re going and saying, like, oh, going and saying, like, oh, my mother-in-law is driving me my mother-in-law is driving me crazy. crazy. And And I have the upcoming zone change I have the upcoming zone change hearing. hearing.
[35:51] Because all of that is Because all of that is potentially discoverable under potentially discoverable under public records request. So public records request. So vant about your mother-in-law in vant about your mother-in-law in a separate email a separate email that says the title, I’m venting that says the title, I’m venting about my mother-in-law. about my mother-in-law.
[35:59] Then a separate email should Then a separate email should say, you say, you something about the planning something about the planning commission business. commission business. I know that’s a I know that’s a a wild example because everybody a wild example because everybody loves it under a lot. loves it under a lot.
[36:16] So there are exemptions So there are exemptions that that permit the city to keep certain permit the city to keep certain documents confidential. documents confidential. That’s another whole That’s another whole training of its own. training of its own. Mostly, that relates to health Mostly, that relates to health records and records and personal addresses. personal addresses.
[36:32] Okay? Okay? Make sure that if you’re Make sure that if you’re conducting city business, conducting city business, in... You know, as a planning in... You know, as a planning commissioner, commissioner, you keep at least a copy... One you keep at least a copy...
[36:45] One copy of that record copy of that record Just understand that Just understand that records that you create are records that you create are subject to subject to public inspection. What that public inspection. What that really means is really means is a disclosure through a public a disclosure through a public record record request. request. Hey, missy. Hey, missy. Yeah. Oh, never mind. You got Yeah. Oh, never mind. You got rid of it. Thanks.
[36:57] rid of it. Thanks. Know. I was worried about I was Know. I was worried about I was worried about that. worried about that. So I’m terrible at screen So I’m terrible at screen sharing. sharing.
[37:06] So one thing that you might So one thing that you might think about doing is think about doing is setting up an email inbox setting up an email inbox like perhaps, you can work with like perhaps, you can work with Max to set up an email inbox Max to set up an email inbox where where emails emails that are... You know, maybe you that are...
[37:19] You know, maybe you received in your personal received in your personal capacity now. Do you all have capacity now. Do you all have planning commissioner emails? planning commissioner emails? You said that you do. You said that you do. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. So those are just So those are just you know, city property.
[37:28] But if you know, city property. But if someone happens to track down someone happens to track down your your personal email your your personal email they send you they send you something that’s Citi Business, something that’s Citi Business, you can just forward that you can just forward that to your planning commission
[37:34] to your planning commission email, then we would have a email, then we would have a a a copy of that. copy of that. That way, we don’t have to... That way, we don’t have to... In... With a large public In...
[37:41] With a large public records request, we wouldn’t records request, we wouldn’t have to have to take over your take over your personal computer personal computer to search for those public to search for those public records. records. To fulfill the request. To fulfill the request.
[37:57] And and another thing to keep in And and another thing to keep in mind is that if you are texting mind is that if you are texting Citi Business on your personal Citi Business on your personal phone, that could also be phone, that could also be subject to subject to a public records disclosure a public records disclosure If we did receive If we did receive a large public records request a large public records request that indicated
[38:08] that indicated that it would be necessary to that it would be necessary to to to provide provide texts that were on your personal texts that were on your personal phone, the city may have to phone, the city may have to secure your phone for a limited secure your phone for a limited period of time.
[38:20] period of time. To get to get those texts. To get to get those texts. But probably they would work But probably they would work with you so that you could just with you so that you could just turn them turn them Do you have any questions about Do you have any questions about public records?
[38:35] public records? Again, it’s really... It seems Again, it’s really... It seems pretty straightforward on the pretty straightforward on the page, but I acknowledge that it page, but I acknowledge that it is more difficult and is more difficult and practice. practice.
[38:45] But just be aware that now that But just be aware that now that you are you are planning to start discussing for planning to start discussing for anybody who’s come on, like, anybody who’s come on, like, the last year. the last year. Your Your your your discussion discussion electronic discussion, or electronic discussion, or written discussion of of written discussion of of planning commission business planning commission business is a public record.
[38:59] is a public record. So just So just verifying, verifying, having gone through this having gone through this type of training type of training before when I first became a before when I first became a planning commissioner, planning commissioner, I have my planning commission I have my planning commission email email which is which is strictly planning commission
[39:16] strictly planning commission business. business. Yeah. And I then set up a Yeah. And I then set up a email for myself, which is email for myself, which is separate from separate from my wife’s my wife’s which includes all the family, which includes all the family, blah blah blah blah blah. blah blah blah blah blah.
[39:30] Is that Is that is that an appropriate way to is that an appropriate way to deal with that? deal with that? Well, it is. I mean, the real Well, it is.
[39:41] I mean, the real I think that the the best I think that the the best guidance would be to don’t guidance would be to don’t really do any really do any planning commission business planning commission business off of your official email off of your official email because then you don’t have because then you don’t have issues. issues. But I think it’s an excellent But I think it’s an excellent suggestion suggestion to to separate... Have a separate separate...
[39:56] Have a separate email for yourself email for yourself in which you... So that, you in which you... So that, you know, your entire family is know, your entire family is life isn’t discoverable. Right. life isn’t discoverable. Right. Someone’s not gonna have to go Someone’s not gonna have to go through it. through it. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.
[40:09] Also, Also, is is your your And don’t use signal. your your And don’t use signal. That’s my other advice. That’s my other advice. Don’t use the signal chat. Don’t use the signal chat. Don’t use signal or Don’t use signal or Discord or some of these apps Discord or some of these apps that that can disappear things. After thirty seconds. All...
[40:44] After thirty seconds. All... Also, is is the presentation Also, is is the presentation you’re putting on will you be you’re putting on will you be able to forward us a copy of able to forward us a copy of that so I Oh, yes. Cool. Thank that so I Oh, yes. Cool. Thank might already be in the packet.
[40:48] might already be in the packet. I’m not sure. But definitely. I’m not sure. But definitely. Okay. Thank you. I’m gonna move Okay. Thank you. I’m gonna move on to ethics. For really good on to ethics. For really good stuff. So we have, again, Oregon stuff.
[40:51] So we have, again, Oregon Government Ethics Commission Government Ethics Commission provide us with a lot of provide us with a lot of guidance. guidance. Mainly, the legislature has Mainly, the legislature has provided guidance and provided guidance and this is an ORS chapter two this is an ORS chapter two twenty two forty four. Sorry. twenty two forty four. Sorry. That’s the typo.
[40:55] That’s the typo. So we were So we were for the last time we were living for the last time we were living in RS Checkered 192. Now we’re in RS Checkered 192. Now we’re switching to RS244. switching to RS244. Cannot use your public position Cannot use your public position to to obtain a financial benefit.
[41:09] obtain a financial benefit. There is a gift prohibition. There is a gift prohibition. This is anything of economic This is anything of economic value not offered to the general value not offered to the general public. public. It’s a maximum of $50 total per It’s a maximum of $50 total per calendar year.
[41:20] calendar year. So in a hypothetical situation, So in a hypothetical situation, if if some organization wanted to some organization wanted to organize a kayak trip organize a kayak trip and they offered and they offered planning commissioners and city planning commissioners and city councilors free councilors free fair... Free free rental. fair... Free free rental.
[41:42] $0 rental, $0 rental, but they did not offer that same but they did not offer that same deal to the general public. deal to the general public. That would need to be That would need to be categorized as a gift. categorized as a gift.
[41:50] It’s up to you to It’s up to you to keep keep track of keep keep track of how many gifts like that you how many gifts like that you receive in a calendar year. receive in a calendar year.
[42:00] My suggestion in that My suggestion in that circumstance circumstance would be to just pay your way would be to just pay your way unless you’re very comfortable unless you’re very comfortable that that will be your $50 for that that will be your $50 for the year. the year. This includes relatives, This includes relatives, household, and businesses. household, and businesses. Relatives is very broadly Relatives is very broadly defined in ORS chapter two forty defined in ORS chapter two forty four.
[42:15] four. You’ll you’ll wanna take a look You’ll you’ll wanna take a look at that. It it essentially at that. It it essentially includes includes your spouse, your spouse, your step parent, your parent, your step parent, your parent, your children, your children, your daughter-in-law, your your daughter-in-law, your son-in-law, son-in-law, and and all of those for your spouse as
[42:28] all of those for your spouse as well. well. That’s the household cover. It That’s the household cover. It also includes anyone also includes anyone Excuse my dog. Excuse my dog.
[42:43] Anyone who’s a dependent of Anyone who’s a dependent of of you that maybe isn’t related of you that maybe isn’t related to you, but, for example, to you, but, for example, you’re a foster parent. you’re a foster parent. That it it also includes that, That it it also includes that, and it includes biz... Any and it includes biz... Any businesses that you have in businesses that you have in it for set. it for set.
[42:53] Violation can result in personal Violation can result in personal liability liability which are fines plus up to two which are fines plus up to two times of financial gain. times of financial gain. So this is the definition of So this is the definition of conflict of interest. Finally, conflict of interest. Finally, I’ve got this...
[43:07] The statutory I’ve got this... The statutory citation nailed down. It’s two citation nailed down. It’s two forty four point zero two zero. forty four point zero two zero. I’m gonna close my door. I’m gonna close my door. Excuse me. Excuse me. Alright. I hope that’ll help. Alright. I hope that’ll help.
[43:26] So we have conflict of interest So we have conflict of interest when acting in your official when acting in your official capacity, you participate capacity, you participate in an action decision or in an action decision or recommendation recommendation the effect of which would be the effect of which would be or could be or could be to the private financial benefit
[43:36] to the private financial benefit or debt or debt detriment of the public official detriment of the public official or your relative or your relative or a business group that you’re or a business group that you’re associated with. associated with.
[43:49] Just to drill down a little bit Just to drill down a little bit more, more, there are two kinds of there are two kinds of conflicts of interest, and conflicts of interest, and depending which path depending which path we go down, we go down, your disclosure and your your disclosure and your participation participation are limited. are limited.
[44:04] So the potential conflict of So the potential conflict of interest interest exists when the action could exists when the action could financially impact financially impact your relatives or your household your relatives or your household or business. or business. An actual conflict of interest An actual conflict of interest exists when exists when it’s apparent that it would it’s apparent that it would financially impact any financially impact any individuals.
[44:19] individuals. And the difference here is And the difference here is not crystal clear in the law, not crystal clear in the law, but it rests on the certainty but it rests on the certainty that a financial impact will that a financial impact will result from the decision. result from the decision.
[44:35] I wanna note that you can have I wanna note that you can have an actual conflict of interest an actual conflict of interest even if the action will need even if the action will need further approval or action by further approval or action by another public another public official or governing body official or governing body before it can be implemented.
[44:50] before it can be implemented. That is really particular to the That is really particular to the planning commission whose role planning commission whose role is often to make recommendations is often to make recommendations to the city council, but to the city council, but sometimes is the final stop. sometimes is the final stop. On an approval letter.
[44:57] On an approval letter. So So this is the... Another way... this is the... Another way... Another Another slide just because I wanna slide just because I wanna emphasis it. emphasis it. I do wanna also say that I do wanna also say that there’s there’s often confusion about conflicts often confusion about conflicts of interest. of interest.
[45:14] A personal A personal position or position or strong feeling about a matter is strong feeling about a matter is not a conflict of interest. not a conflict of interest. This is the epicenter’s speaking This is the epicenter’s speaking to financial conflicts of to financial conflicts of interest of whether a interest of whether a could could suffer or benefit financially.
[45:28] suffer or benefit financially. From a decision. From a decision. Okay. Okay. So So this is what we need to do to this is what we need to do to comply with the ethics laws. comply with the ethics laws.
[45:42] We want you to identify the We want you to identify the conflict of interest conflict of interest we want you to describe the we want you to describe the nature nature then we want you to properly then we want you to properly disclose and dispose of them. disclose and dispose of them.
[45:52] What that means is that if you What that means is that if you have a a have a a a wood, you have an actual a wood, you have an actual conflict of interest, conflict of interest, You are You are very likely prohibited from very likely prohibited from discussing or voting on discussing or voting on the matter. the matter. This might seem obvious, but This might seem obvious, but it’s worth repeating.
[46:08] it’s worth repeating. You have to make the public You have to make the public announcement in a public announcement in a public meeting. meeting.
[46:15] You have to make it each time You have to make it each time the conflict arises, and that the conflict arises, and that means if you’re considering a means if you’re considering a matter over multiple meetings, matter over multiple meetings, the law requires you to make the law requires you to make this public announcement this public announcement at each meeting. at each meeting. Okay. Okay. There are some exceptions. There are some exceptions. So when...
[46:37] Essentially, when a a So when... Essentially, when a a a conflicted public official’s a conflicted public official’s vote is necessary vote is necessary to meet quorum. to meet quorum.
[46:47] Or to to reach a decision Or to to reach a decision that then that then you are allowed to you are allowed to vote vote but not allowed to participate but not allowed to participate in the discussion. in the discussion. Your your role is limited to Your your role is limited to I or nay. I or nay.
[47:01] If there’s more than one If there’s more than one conflicted official, conflicted official, once we get that first person, once we get that first person, the other people remain the other people remain conflicted and and cannot conflicted and and cannot participate. participate. So I know you’re gonna have a So I know you’re gonna have a lot of questions about this. lot of questions about this.
[47:11] Do you wanna ask them? Do you wanna ask them? So so one example is, in the So so one example is, in the last, last, council meeting, council meeting, there was a matter on the there was a matter on the agenda, and the mayor con... Had concluded the mayor con...
[47:43] Had concluded that prior to the meeting that that prior to the meeting that she had a potential conflict of she had a potential conflict of interest based on the location interest based on the location of her residence. And so she of her residence.
[47:47] And so she made a statement at the made a statement at the beginning of the discussion of beginning of the discussion of the matter that she wanted to the matter that she wanted to disclose a potential conflict of disclose a potential conflict of there’s a there’s a a proposal to, a proposal to, a community center. a community center. In the city In the city adjacent to your adjacent to your property that you own. property that you own.
[47:57] I would suggest disclosing that I would suggest disclosing that as a potential as a potential of interest. of interest. I would suggest reaching out to I would suggest reaching out to the Oregon Government Ethics the Oregon Government Ethics Commission if Commission if for guidance on whether for guidance on whether they think that that would
[48:11] they think that that would qualify as an actual conflict of qualify as an actual conflict of interest. interest. I will say that an actual I will say that an actual conflict of interest generally conflict of interest generally requires requires a level of specificity a level of specificity that isn’t available to most
[48:23] that isn’t available to most people at the time that they people at the time that they reach out to the OGAC. reach out to the OGAC. So in that scenario, the So in that scenario, the community center community center it’s potential it’s potential because it’s next door. because it’s next door.
[48:34] And because you don’t know if And because you don’t know if it’s going to impact your it’s going to impact your you financially. you financially. However Either way. However Either way. Either way. Right. Whether it be Either way. Right. Whether it be negatively or positively. negatively or positively. Correct.
[48:45] It would be an actual Correct. It would be an actual conflict of interest if that conflict of interest if that community center was being community center was being considered for your property. considered for your property. Specifically. That is that is a Specifically. That is that is a great example. Another example great example.
[48:51] Another example might be might be a community center is a a community center is a I use that purposely. It’s a I use that purposely. It’s a fairly benign fairly benign example. example. But, you know, But, you know, it’s it’s say that the proposal was for, say that the proposal was for, cannabis cannabis marijuana retail shop.
[49:04] marijuana retail shop. Next to your Next to your your commercially owned property your commercially owned property that you own. that you own. That would be perhaps a little That would be perhaps a little bit bit trickier to resolve depending on trickier to resolve depending on whether whether the facts show that that would
[49:23] the facts show that that would be a be a positive or negative positive or negative you know, financial you know, financial implications in your property. implications in your property.
[49:34] So it gets a little trickier So it gets a little trickier when it depends on when it depends on you know, what you know, what in the example, what is going in the example, what is going in. in. Going on. Going on. So you you brought you brought So you you brought you brought us this. So another example us this.
[49:46] So another example is is you you you have an actual you you you have an actual of interest where your employer of interest where your employer is is the applicant. the applicant. For a condition estimate. For a condition estimate.
[49:57] You probably have an actual You probably have an actual of interest depending on, of interest depending on, whether your employer is a whether your employer is a business, business, maybe maybe it’s you and it’s you and other people, other people, The... This conditional use The... This conditional use permit, if it permit, if it if it gets approved, is going to if it gets approved, is going to increase your commissions. increase your commissions. Please go ahead. Please go ahead.
[50:16] Oh, I Oh, I I’m retracting my comment. I’m retracting my comment. Okay. Okay. I’d like to go back to I’d like to go back to you explaining how you explaining how if there’s if there’s more than one person on the more than one person on the planning commission that planning commission that has a conflict or a potential
[50:32] has a conflict or a potential conflict of interest conflict of interest how we would not how we would not participate in the discussion, participate in the discussion, but but possibly still need to vote. possibly still need to vote. Yes. Yes. So this is because the law So this is because the law that...
[50:46] Or as chapter two forty that... Or as chapter two forty four acknowledges that four acknowledges that its conflict of interest rules its conflict of interest rules could prevent a decision from could prevent a decision from actually actually being made that’s really being made that’s really unnecessary unnecessary thing to happen and also that an
[50:57] thing to happen and also that an applicant is entitled applicant is entitled to a decision often. So to a decision often. So sometimes it’s referred to as a sometimes it’s referred to as a rule of necessity. rule of necessity.
[51:07] And it recognizes that people And it recognizes that people with actual conflict of with actual conflict of interests interests as long as they don’t as long as they don’t participate in the delivery... participate in the delivery... The deliver... Deliberation, The deliver... Deliberation, their vote their vote is okay to get is okay to get the matter across the finish the matter across the finish line. line.
[51:20] Because, particularly, like, for Because, particularly, like, for our... When he’s like, our... When he’s like, judicial matter, you... When you judicial matter, you... When you have an applicant, have an applicant, they’re entitled to a decision they’re entitled to a decision under the law. under the law.
[51:31] And so we can’t hamstring And so we can’t hamstring the proceedings so much that the proceedings so much that they don’t get the decision they don’t get the decision they’re entitled to. they’re entitled to. Alright. Thank you. Alright. Thank you. This is a land use concept also, This is a land use concept also, which I’ll talk about when we do which I’ll talk about when we do our land use training.
[51:44] our land use training. And it does... It happens more And it does... It happens more frequently than frequently than think. think. Where Where there is someone who... There’s there is someone who...
[51:56] There’s a commissioner or a counselor a commissioner or a counselor who came out who came out strongly against strongly against a proposal, and they, so a proposal, and they, so strongly, in fact, strongly, in fact, that they say, I can’t make an that they say, I can’t make an impartial decision on this. impartial decision on this. This is an acquiescing visual This is an acquiescing visual context. context. I’m biased. And they say, I’m I’m biased. And they say, I’m gonna refuse myself.
[52:07] gonna refuse myself. But for whatever reason, there’s But for whatever reason, there’s a vacancy or something like a vacancy or something like that, their vote is actually that, their vote is actually needed needed to allow that body to reach a to allow that body to reach a quorum quorum and make a decision or a
[52:15] and make a decision or a majority vote, make a decision. majority vote, make a decision. Case law allows Case law allows that person to just vote that person to just vote not participate in the not participate in the discussion, but just vote. discussion, but just vote. So...
[52:25] And here is the conflict So... And here is the conflict of interest statute. of interest statute. Okay. So Okay. So kind of looking looking at kind of looking looking at so I can define in my mind so I can define in my mind the border between potential and the border between potential and actual actual for for for example,
[52:39] for example, if you have if you have commissioners that live commissioners that live in the... And and this... I’ve in the... And and this... I’ve done this as we’ve done this as we’ve done, done, decisions before. decisions before.
[52:59] That That live live within the within the urban growth boundary urban growth boundary in talking about land use in talking about land use actions. They declare a actions. They declare a potential conflict potential conflict of interest I have of interest I have and noted that and noted that I can still make a fair decision I can still make a fair decision for what I’m deciding. for what I’m deciding. Does it make a diff...
[53:11] So Does it make a diff... So that’s... It’s an obviously that’s... It’s an obviously potential. potential. I increase the value of my I increase the value of my house, I decrease it. house, I decrease it.
[53:29] Does it make a difference? Does it make a difference? If If the the issue being discussed issue being discussed definitely, definitely, will will do something to the value of do something to the value of your property. Say you live on a your property. Say you live on a road that’s being proposed, road that’s being proposed, as opposed to in the area. as opposed to in the area. That...
[53:36] I think that does make a That... I think that does make a difference because if difference because if even if you don’t necessarily even if you don’t necessarily know exactly is this gonna know exactly is this gonna benefit benefit me to my benefit or to my me to my benefit or to my detriment, I think if you can,
[53:46] detriment, I think if you can, in good conscience, say, in good conscience, say, this is gonna have some this is gonna have some some financial effect if some financial effect if if this happens or if this happens or keep in mind, if it doesn’t keep in mind, if it doesn’t happen.
[53:56] Right? Because it’s not happen. Right? Because it’s not only talking about only talking about things that get approved. It’s things that get approved. It’s also talking about things also talking about things that don’t get approved. And if that don’t get approved.
[54:06] And if something doesn’t get approved something doesn’t get approved because because a commissioner or a counselor is a commissioner or a counselor is worried about worried about the financial effect that’s the financial effect that’s gonna have on their gonna have on their property value, that is probably property value, that is probably an actual complex. an actual complex.
[54:20] But this is something that it’s But this is something that it’s really really frustrating frustrating I think, for commissioners and I think, for commissioners and counselors, which is that counselors, which is that this calculation is up to you to this calculation is up to you to make. Right. make. Right.
[54:33] So, again, I really recommend So, again, I really recommend the OGEC is the OGEC is is, open and is, open and and pretty reachable when it and pretty reachable when it comes to talking comes to talking through the industry. through the industry. Yeah. I had some real life Yeah. I had some real life experience with this. experience with this. Mhmm. Potential versus versus Mhmm. Potential versus versus actual.
[54:44] And actual. And like you said, it is up to the like you said, it is up to the individual to declare individual to declare which one. which one. To make that declaration. But To make that declaration. But the OGEC is very good about the OGEC is very good about providing providing guidance.
[54:57] providing providing guidance. I agree. And I... Can I get back I agree. And I... Can I get back to something that the chair to something that the chair said? So said? So I like what you said about how I I like what you said about how I wanna declare that I have a
[55:01] wanna declare that I have a potential conflict of interest. potential conflict of interest. So the part that where I think So the part that where I think people get tripped up is people get tripped up is when you say I can still make a when you say I can still make a fair and partial decision,
[55:11] fair and partial decision, that’s not really necessary. that’s not really necessary. That is That is mixing up mixing up two different concepts. One is two different concepts. One is bias, bias, and one is conflict and and one is conflict and interest. And that’s why I interest.
[55:22] And that’s why I wanted to emphasize wanted to emphasize when we’re talking about when we’re talking about conflict and interest, we’re conflict and interest, we’re talking about talking about financial financial implications. implications. We are not talking about We are not talking about impartial decision making, which impartial decision making, which is more of a is more of a personal personal issue.
[55:40] Does that make sense? issue. Does that make sense? It it does, yes, to me. And so It it does, yes, to me. And so one of the things one of the things come up recently too is signing come up recently too is signing a petition. a petition.
[55:47] If you’re signing a petition, If you’re signing a petition, I don’t consider that being a I don’t consider that being a conflict of interest. conflict of interest. No. It could be evidence of No. It could be evidence of bias. bias. Later down the road. Well, it’s Later down the road. Well, it’s bias.
[55:55] If if Right? bias. If if Right? Bias if bias is Bias if bias is at issue. So Right. So bias only at issue. So Right. So bias only comes into play when you’re in comes into play when you’re in crazy judicial role. crazy judicial role. Yes. When you’re in legislative Yes.
[56:05] When you’re in legislative role, role, bias is not bias is not relevant. relevant. Because Because legislative decisions are legislative decisions are are are just that legislative, are are just that legislative, and there’s not an applicant and there’s not an applicant right to impartiality since right to impartiality since for that. for that. But we, the planning commission, But we, the planning commission, don’t find ourselves in quasi...
[56:20] don’t find ourselves in quasi... Quasi judicial situations, do Quasi judicial situations, do we? we? Because Yes. Not anymore. Because Yes. Not anymore. Not lately. Not lately. Yeah. Because of Yeah. Because of of the high interest rates and of the high interest rates and all the other things.
[56:33] Well, but all the other things. Well, but quasi judicial is... Their quasi judicial is... Their decisions. Right? Correct? decisions. Right? Correct? Their their decision. So, Their their decision. So, traditionally used traditionally used permits. I mean, I’m gonna look permits.
[56:41] I mean, I’m gonna look to Max and maybe help me out a to Max and maybe help me out a little bit. But little bit. But coincidental, our decisions on coincidental, our decisions on variances variances conditionally used permits Okay. conditionally used permits Okay.
[56:54] Things that require you Things that require you where, you know, where the where, you know, where the applicant has a hundred and applicant has a hundred and twenty day clock ticking Yeah. twenty day clock ticking Yeah. Usually, Usually, those are quite judicial, and those are quite judicial, and those do implicate those do implicate both. both.
[57:04] Financial conflicts of interest Financial conflicts of interest and also the concept of bias, and also the concept of bias, which is which is have you looked at all the have you looked at all the evidence evidence that’s presented and make a fair that’s presented and make a fair decision? decision? Those are very specific Those are very specific situations. situations. Yes. Yes. And so only to those facts. And And so only to those facts.
[57:15] And for the planning commission, for the planning commission, we’re generally making we’re generally making recommendations to recommendations to council for the most part. council for the most part. I think. I think.
[57:27] Well, on quasi judicial matters, Well, on quasi judicial matters, you you so, like, for example, like, so, like, for example, like, Max, can you help me out through Max, can you help me out through The Kensington Square... Max The Kensington Square... Max left the real joke room. left the real joke room. Oh, Oh, But go ahead. But go ahead.
[57:36] So the Kensington Square, that So the Kensington Square, that one was a little complicated one was a little complicated because it was both an because it was both an annexation and annexation and a zone change. But the zone a zone change. But the zone change piece of that was change piece of that was definitely created by judicial definitely created by judicial It had a hundred and twenty day It had a hundred and twenty day clock. clock.
[57:44] Probably, and it required Probably, and it required application application of of the actual criteria to a really the actual criteria to a really specific set of facts specific set of facts that the applicant had to that the applicant had to meet a burden of proof to prove. meet a burden of proof to prove. That’s the place I did this all.
[58:01] That’s the place I did this all. So even though it’s a it’s a So even though it’s a it’s a compound amendment or a zone compound amendment or a zone change, change, that doesn’t make it that doesn’t make it automatically legislative. It automatically legislative. It depends on depends on nature of the application.
[58:11] nature of the application. An easy way to keep it in mind An easy way to keep it in mind is is is there an applicant is there an applicant and who is the applicant? If the and who is the applicant? If the applicant is something something applicant is something something LLC, LLC, it’s
[58:21] it’s very likely quasi judicial. If very likely quasi judicial. If the applicant is the city of the applicant is the city of King City, King City, it’s very likely legislative. it’s very likely legislative. Okay. Okay. And we’ll talk more about this. And we’ll talk more about this. This is a whole thing...
[58:30] Whole This is a whole thing... Whole section section of my land use training. of my land use training. We will talk more about that. We will talk more about that. I I wanna do a quick I I wanna do a quick verification verification Max. Max. We haven’t heard from We haven’t heard from commissioner Petrie yet.
[58:42] She commissioner Petrie yet. She Make sure she’s able... She’s Make sure she’s able... She’s she’s doing monitoring. She can she’s doing monitoring. She can Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. That’s all I need to Okay. Cool. That’s all I need to know. know. She’s she’s still on a panelist. She’s she’s still on a panelist. So So Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good.
[58:52] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Okay. Okay. This is... Here’s the bad news. This is... Here’s the bad news. Maximum symbol Maximum symbol civil penalty civil penalty is is $5,000. $5,000. The o... OGAC in my The o...
[59:12] OGAC in my observation only, has gotten a observation only, has gotten a little bit worse little bit worse stringent about stringent about assessing penalties for assessing penalties for violations of asset violations of asset law... Ethics laws, law... Ethics laws, in the last couple of years. in the last couple of years.
[59:27] But, generally, But, generally, they’re gonna always start, they’re gonna always start, particularly if it’s a particularly if it’s a nonintentional violation, nonintentional violation, they’re almost always gonna they’re almost always gonna start with start with some sort of letter of education some sort of letter of education or reprimand or reprimand or go through some ethics or go through some ethics trainings. trainings. This is what I was talking about This is what I was talking about before. before.
[59:39] Public officials cannot use Public officials cannot use public resources to address a public resources to address a case opened by ODAG. case opened by ODAG. That is That is unfortunately on your own dime. unfortunately on your own dime. That’s why you get paid the big That’s why you get paid the big bucks. bucks. K.
[59:52] And then I did wanna point K. And then I did wanna point out here too, and this is the out here too, and this is the the end of the slide. the end of the slide. King Cities code has its own King Cities code has its own conflict of intersection. This conflict of intersection.
[59:57] This is fairly common in is fairly common in city city codes. city city codes. It does mirror It does mirror in almost in almost word for word, the ORS two forty word for word, the ORS two forty four prohibition, but it is four prohibition, but it is a sort of a separate a sort of a separate separate,
[1:00:15] separate, situation in the event that situation in the event that the... For some reason, OS the... For some reason, OS checked OS checked checked OS checked two forty four was ever repealed two forty four was ever repealed or or or or you know? you know? Lessened in its effect.
[1:00:24] We do Lessened in its effect. We do still right now have this King still right now have this King City code division. City code division. So now that you know all about So now that you know all about how to not do posts on Facebook, how to not do posts on Facebook, These are some guides.
[1:00:38] These are some guides. You. And I do wanna say again You. And I do wanna say again that, oh, yeah. Can that, oh, yeah. Can a surprisingly helpful a surprisingly helpful and and guidance on these matters. guidance on these matters.
[1:00:50] They have a whole department They have a whole department or division that’s set up or division that’s set up to do this, which I find to do this, which I find actually kind of heartening actually kind of heartening because because often the legislature will kind often the legislature will kind of of pass these draconian laws, but pass these draconian laws, but then not provide any
[1:00:58] then not provide any support for anyone who has to support for anyone who has to live under them, dengue or gay? live under them, dengue or gay? And, you know, oh, the And, you know, oh, the legislature and all gang have legislature and all gang have really stepped up to
[1:01:04] really stepped up to to fill in that void. to fill in that void. And I I would add And I I would add for for our new counselors, our new counselors, OGEC is not OGEC is not surprisingly helpful. They are surprisingly helpful. They are helpful. Very supportive. helpful. Very supportive. Yeah. They are. I...
[1:01:21] I’ve had to Yeah. They are. I... I’ve had to use them in other instances use them in other instances you know, where I had questions you know, where I had questions and details and details And a lot of time, like, now, And a lot of time, like, now, we can’t talk about specific we can’t talk about specific instances.
[1:01:33] instances. You call OTC you can give them You call OTC you can give them exactly exactly every specific their every specific their and they will give you and they will give you their best take or their best take or move you up a chain of command move you up a chain of command if
[1:01:43] if if it’s a higher issue. Yes. if it’s a higher issue. Yes. But that’s that’s a resource to But that’s that’s a resource to use. use. Mhmm. And so for the for the Mhmm.
[1:01:53] And so for the for the mandatory training, you know, mandatory training, you know, that’s that’s certified, again, that’s once certified, again, that’s once per term. per term. And so I know And so I know least a couple of you are in least a couple of you are in your your first kind of first term, first kind of first term, still. still.
[1:02:06] And I’m not sure if you’ve done And I’m not sure if you’ve done that mandatory training, but I’m that mandatory training, but I’m gonna I’m gonna gonna I’m gonna pass along to Ronnie who I point pass along to Ronnie who I point people to is the law firm of people to is the law firm of Gary, Elsner, and Hammond.
[1:02:15] Gary, Elsner, and Hammond. That did set in to do some, That did set in to do some, emergency work for the city. emergency work for the city. They have a really excellent They have a really excellent accredited training accredited training that I have recommended to that I have recommended to people before.
[1:02:25] And so we’ll make people before. And so we’ll make sure that we get that sure that we get that shared out to you. shared out to you. How is it? Yeah. You can do it How is it? Yeah. You can do it your at your leisure, and it’s your at your leisure, and it’s self reporting.
[1:02:35] self reporting. Yeah. I was just gonna ask how Yeah. I was just gonna ask how is that registered. is that registered. But But Oh, is it credited? Oh, is it credited? Yeah. Yeah.
[1:02:43] The the OPAK actually goes The the OPAK actually goes through, and it has a list of, I through, and it has a list of, I think, think, there’s, like, eight to there’s, like, eight to 10 accredited trainings. And it 10 accredited trainings. And it goes... You know, they go goes...
[1:02:52] You know, they go through a rigorous process so through a rigorous process so they make sure that the training they make sure that the training covers covers you know, a list of 55 things you know, a list of 55 things that they that they have have that needs to be covered in that needs to be covered in order for it to be amended. order for it to be amended.
[1:03:01] So who’s keeping track of So who’s keeping track of who’s done it and who hasn’t who’s done it and who hasn’t done done Is it just you... I think it Is it just you... I think it self reporting instead. Right? self reporting instead. Right? So Trust you. So Trust you. Okay. Because they trust you.
[1:03:11] Okay. Because they trust you. Okay. So are we calling Ronnie Okay. So are we calling Ronnie and Sam I’ve completed the and Sam I’ve completed the training, or we’ll just take it? training, or we’ll just take it? Actually, Actually, what happened is some of the what happened is some of the city councilors did did email
[1:03:17] city councilors did did email Ronnie I think they might have Ronnie I think they might have emailed me emailed me too and said, I completed the too and said, I completed the training. training. This is my record of it. And, This is my record of it.
[1:03:24] And, also, a lot of them said, by the also, a lot of them said, by the way, I found it incredibly way, I found it incredibly helpful. helpful. So the city is keeping track of So the city is keeping track of that. that. Correct? Correct? Kind of. Kind of. Okay. But I do Kind of. Kind of. Okay.
[1:03:32] But I do think that, you know, think that, you know, commissioner, where it might commissioner, where it might come up is come up is you know, you know, it would be nice to have that it would be nice to have that record in record in case case there is a complaint filed and there is a complaint filed and the object app
[1:03:45] the object app will, you know... Would this will, you know... Would this have happened if we did your have happened if we did your mandatory training? Or mandatory training? Or you do your... You know, it’s you do your...
[1:03:50] You know, it’s sort of like a sort of like a a threshold question that I a threshold question that I could see them maybe asking, could see them maybe asking, which is which is why are we having these issues? why are we having these issues? Who are you doing the training? Who are you doing the training? Right. Right.
[1:03:58] So So you know, I mean, I do think you know, I mean, I do think that that you’re all you’re all adults that can be present. adults that can be present. Self report? Self report? Yeah. I’m not trying to get Yeah. I’m not trying to get around it. I’m just wondering, around it.
[1:04:11] I’m just wondering, you know, if you know, if somebody doesn’t take it, you somebody doesn’t take it, you know, if that’s red flag and know, if that’s red flag and there’s a reminder, you know, there’s a reminder, you know, that, hey. Yeah. You need to that, hey. Yeah. You need to it. So it. So alright. alright. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great.
[1:04:19] I mean, you know, right now, the I mean, you know, right now, the city doesn’t really have a city doesn’t really have a mechanism other than mechanism other than Ronnie’s record keeping. Ronnie’s record keeping.
[1:04:30] To make sure that To make sure that commissioners and counselors commissioners and counselors take required training take required training but but perhaps maybe a future city perhaps maybe a future city council might council might you know, wanna adopt a you know, wanna adopt a resolution that resolution that know, sort of requires that. And know, sort of requires that. And requires record keeping. requires record keeping. They can do that if they wanted They can do that if they wanted to. to.
[1:04:44] But they have But they have Okay. So I’m gonna stop sharing. Okay. So I’m gonna stop sharing. I’m gonna figure out how to stop I’m gonna figure out how to stop sharing. sharing. I might be able to do it for I might be able to do it for you. you. That’d be awesome. That’d be awesome. Let’s see.
[1:05:03] Let’s see. I have to go back to calendar I have to go back to calendar school if I have trouble setting school if I have trouble setting meetings meetings I have to go back to I have to go back to screen share. screen share. Alright. I got it. Alright. I got it. Not sharing anymore.
[1:05:11] Not sharing anymore. Thanks. Does anybody have any Thanks. Does anybody have any wrap up questions? And wrap up questions? And and and and sorry. I know you you had a and sorry. I know you you had a lot of lot of concrete questions. concrete questions.
[1:05:18] That you wanted to go through, That you wanted to go through, but I but I don’t really feel comfortable don’t really feel comfortable talking about specific talking about specific situation unless it’s situation unless it’s included on the agenda as included on the agenda as an item for discussion. an item for discussion. Okay? Okay? Hey. Hey.
[1:05:36] Looks like you got forty five Looks like you got forty five minutes back. minutes back. I’m trying I’m trying Oh, you’re supposed to do my Oh, you’re supposed to do my train? train? Exactly. Let me see if I can... Exactly. Let me see if I can...
[1:05:50] I wish that I could I wish that I could maybe at max, I can email you maybe at max, I can email you the link to the burial ulcer the link to the burial ulcer training training and you can just and you can just share that right out. Yeah. If share that right out. Yeah.
[1:05:57] If you could email me the link to you could email me the link to that training and also the that training and also the slides. slides. Oh, oh, the slides are in Oh, oh, the slides are in I think the slides are included I think the slides are included in what, Ronnie? in what, Ronnie? Called the packet. Called the packet. Don’t know. Don’t know. I’ll see if I...
[1:06:12] I remember you I’ll see if I... I remember you sent them a while ago. I can sent them a while ago. I can see if I can take them off. Did see if I can take them off.
[1:06:17] Did you guys you guys see the slides? I didn’t see the slides? I didn’t any connections to any connections to the sides. Oh, yeah. No. He the sides. Oh, yeah. No. He didn’t post them. didn’t post them. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I’ll get those to you. I’ll get those to you. Thank you. Thank you. I know Max, you were out last I know Max, you were out last week.
[1:06:26] So week. So walking back into this walking back into this Nice work. Yes. Yes. Well, Nice work. Yes. Yes. Well, Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Messy. Messy. Appreciate it. You Messy. Messy. Appreciate it. You soon. soon. Great to see you all. Great to see you all. K. Bye bye. Bye.
[1:06:39] K. Bye bye. Bye. Alright. Alright. Okay. Okay. Any Any updates updates since since Yeah. So I actually had a pre Yeah. So I actually had a pre application meeting with application meeting with a business last week that wants a business last week that wants to to come in and take over the
[1:07:01] come in and take over the Sherry’s property and put in a Sherry’s property and put in a drive through coffee sand. drive through coffee sand. So they’re, like, a nationwide So they’re, like, a nationwide business. business. They seem super excited about They seem super excited about the location. We included ODOT.
[1:07:13] the location. We included ODOT. CWS, CBF, and R. It would be CWS, CBF, and R. It would be nice to see the Sherys get nice to see the Sherys get turned into something. turned into something. Instead of just being a derelict Instead of just being a derelict building. building. That’s the only update I have.
[1:07:27] That’s the only update I have. We’re only a Would it only be a We’re only a Would it only be a drive through? Or Yeah. I drive through? Or Yeah. I would... No. They would have a would... No. They would have a walk up.
[1:07:30] It’s the the way that walk up. It’s the the way that the... It’s seven Brew coffee, the... It’s seven Brew coffee, which is now just coming into which is now just coming into Oregon, Oregon, Washington, Idaho. Washington, Idaho.
[1:07:38] And it’s sort of like And it’s sort of like you don’t have a window, so you you don’t have a window, so you go into the queue. go into the queue. Then someone comes out, takes Then someone comes out, takes your order, goes back, and then your order, goes back, and then brings you your drink, and then brings you your drink, and then you go your way. you go your way. But But yeah.
[1:07:47] yeah. Those things are getting pretty Those things are getting pretty popular. popular. And they’re they’re including And they’re they’re including some landscaping and some grass some landscaping and some grass and and you know, trying to make the you know, trying to make the the vase a little bit nicer.
[1:07:59] the vase a little bit nicer. Commissioner Mobley? I have a Commissioner Mobley? I have a So the Sherri’s property, is So the Sherri’s property, is that connected to the other that connected to the other complex there with, like, the complex there with, like, the grocery store and stuff, or are
[1:08:12] grocery store and stuff, or are they owned separately? they owned separately? Separately? Or They’re owned by Separately? Or They’re owned by the same business. I believe the same business. I believe it’s Prosper Properties, which it’s Prosper Properties, which is just a is just a huge conglomerate huge conglomerate real estate conglomerate.
[1:08:17] real estate conglomerate. Which is also a subsidiary of Which is also a subsidiary of Blackstone, which Blackstone, which seemingly owns everything. So seemingly owns everything. So Well, I was just wondering Well, I was just wondering because we... I mean, there is a because we...
[1:08:23] I mean, there is a coffee shop coffee shop there if that would be a there if that would be a conflict of interest to conflict of interest to you know, have two businesses you know, have two businesses similar. similar. I mean, competition never hurts. I mean, competition never hurts. Mean, like Sure. I just Mean, like Sure.
[1:08:32] I just sometimes there’s there’s some, sometimes there’s there’s some, you know, you know, written... I have never seen a written... I have never seen a conflict event. If the owner of conflict event.
[1:08:41] If the owner of Coffee Time was on the planning Coffee Time was on the planning commission, then, yes, it would commission, then, yes, it would be a conflict of interest for be a conflict of interest for him. I mean, I him.
[1:08:47] I mean, I just don’t know how the just don’t know how the I have seen sometimes where I have seen sometimes where a business a business you know, just They might They you know, just They might They cannot have another business in cannot have another business in the the same kind of business. So within same kind of business. So within so many so many No. We don’t have any of that in No.
[1:08:54] We don’t have any of that in our code, but the our code, but the I mean, coffee time might come I mean, coffee time might come and testify and testify know, at the hearing. know, at the hearing. So that’s... The the drive So that’s... The the drive through facility is a provision through facility is a provision in the in the zoning for limited commercial, zoning for limited commercial, which is what that zone is.
[1:09:04] which is what that zone is. It’s a conditional use. It’s a conditional use. So if if they were just coming So if if they were just coming in and building their coffee in and building their coffee stand, I stand, I pretty sure it would be an pretty sure it would be an administrative review.
[1:09:14] But since administrative review. But since it’s a conditional use, it will it’s a conditional use, it will come to planning commission. come to planning commission. Okay. Okay. But that was just a pre But that was just a pre application. I’m not sure application. I’m not sure exactly what their timeline is. exactly what their timeline is. Great.
[1:09:23] Great. I got a question regarding, I got a question regarding, Kansas City Square. Kansas City Square. Mhmm. Mhmm. So that So that serve the groundwork. serve the groundwork. Yes. They’ve had their early Yes. They’ve had their early grading permits. grading permits.
[1:09:34] And I’ve heard that And I’ve heard that maybe they’re restricted to only maybe they’re restricted to only nine homes. Is that... Is there nine homes. Is that... Is there some truth to that? some truth to that? Until the road situation is? I Until the road situation is? I haven’t heard anything of that. haven’t heard anything of that. Okay. Okay.
[1:09:43] And they haven’t submitted for And they haven’t submitted for building permits yet. So, I building permits yet. So, I mean, they they can’t build mean, they they can’t build homes until they put in homes until they put in necessary infrastructure. necessary infrastructure.
[1:09:55] But But yeah, I’m not I’m not super yeah, I’m not I’m not super surprised on what Ken Kensington surprised on what Ken Kensington Square is doing right now. Square is doing right now. They’ve been negotiating some They’ve been negotiating some stuff with the county. stuff with the county. And CWS. So that one, it would And CWS. So that one, it would have been...
[1:10:00] If if it’s true, have been... If if it’s true, that one, it would be that one, it would be placed on that by the county. placed on that by the county. Even though Potentially. Like, Even though Potentially. Like, so similar situation happened so similar situation happened with with the town center. Mhmm.
[1:10:07] They were the town center. Mhmm. They were initially only able to initially only able to 15 certificates of occupancy 15 certificates of occupancy until they put in some until they put in some improvements at that improvements at that intersection of Beef Ben and intersection of Beef Ben and White Rogers, and that was the
[1:10:16] White Rogers, and that was the Washington County Restriction. Washington County Restriction. That was the Washington That was the Washington County engineer telling them County engineer telling them that they had to do that. that they had to do that. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the training Okay.
[1:10:25] So the training that that we we didn’t have didn’t have they’ve got they’ve got put, you know, put, you know, The one that was meant for The one that was meant for today. today. Mhmm. That was meant for today. Mhmm. That was meant for today. Yeah. Yeah. Should we be scheduling that? Should we be scheduling that? I’m thinking. I’m thinking. Certainly.
[1:10:39] So would you like to Certainly. So would you like to schedule it schedule it for the second or the fourth for the second or the fourth week of October? week of October? Fourteenth or the twenty eighth? Fourteenth or the twenty eighth? Yeah. Yeah. Either one’s fine. Either one’s fine. Thank you. I’m sorry.
[1:11:01] I didn’t Thank you. I’m sorry. I didn’t have a sound. have a sound. Sorry. What was that? Sorry. What was that? Laurie? Laurie? No. I I I put this No. I I I put this and the fourth always on my and the fourth always on my calendar. So Okay. calendar. So Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:11:15] And then the other question is And then the other question is do you want it to do it in the do you want it to do it in the morning again, or do you wanna morning again, or do you wanna do it in the evening? do it in the evening? We don’t know exactly why We don’t know exactly why commissioner Boehner couldn’t
[1:11:20] commissioner Boehner couldn’t make it, but make it, but commissioner Swanson’s just out commissioner Swanson’s just out of town. of town. So So Right. Right.
[1:11:31] But I understand that the the But I understand that the the meeting that we are rescheduling meeting that we are rescheduling right now is a longer meeting right now is a longer meeting than what than what today’s meeting is? I think today’s meeting is? I think it’ll probably be similar. it’ll probably be similar. You might... There might be more You might... There might be more questions, and it’s questions, and it’s I’m not I’m not I don’t...
[1:11:43] I I haven’t seen I don’t... I I haven’t seen Missy’s specific land use Missy’s specific land use training, but the one that Peter training, but the one that Peter gave to the plan commission a gave to the plan commission a couple years ago was pretty couple years ago was pretty long. long. It was up two hours.
[1:11:49] It was up two hours. I’m good for you. I’m good for you. So So So So the dates are fine, I guess. the dates are fine, I guess. I’ve been I’ve been prefer an evening meeting. But prefer an evening meeting.
[1:12:00] But if there’s if there’s gonna be a longer agenda that we gonna be a longer agenda that we have to have to be reviewing things, then be reviewing things, then separate separate meeting would be good too. meeting would be good too.
[1:12:09] I mean, I just don’t know what I mean, I just don’t know what our our what will be on the agenda in what will be on the agenda in October for us to As far as October for us to As far as what we’ve got right now, it’s what we’ve got right now, it’s gonna be the only thing. gonna be the only thing.
[1:12:15] So So can make sure that you have can make sure that you have access to the slides access to the slides on the agenda before on the agenda before so you can review them. so you can review them. But But it should be pretty similar to it should be pretty similar to this meeting. this meeting. Okay. Okay.
[1:12:22] I heard it’s June 28 in the I heard it’s June 28 in the evening. evening. Alright. Alright. Preference would be twenty Preference would be twenty eighth in the evening. eighth in the evening. It’s good for me. It’s good for me. Let’s make a motion. Let’s make a motion. Is that Is that Laura is saying for her.
[1:12:33] She Laura is saying for her. She sounds like she’s Yeah. She said sounds like she’s Yeah. She said that she’s open later in those that she’s open later in those days. days. Twenty eighth in the evening? Twenty eighth in the evening? Alrighty. Good. Twenty eighth at Alrighty. Good. Twenty eighth at 06:00. 06:00.
[1:12:54] Anything else, sir? Anything else, sir? Anything else else, And the last Anything else else, And the last thing is I thing is I just have to make sure that just have to make sure that Missy can attend. So tentative. Missy can attend. So tentative. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good.
[1:13:02] Am I submitting my notes Good. Am I submitting my notes to someone? to someone? Take a picture of them. Okay. Take a picture of them. Okay. Okay. Are we all good? Okay. Are we all good? Yes. Yes. Motion to observe. Motion to Motion to observe. Motion to adjourn. adjourn. I second it. Aye.
[1:13:14] Are you I’m I second it. Aye. Are you I’m asking for... Oh, I got... He asking for... Oh, I got... He looked at him for the motion. looked at him for the motion. I’ll make a motion to adjourn. I’ll make a motion to adjourn. And I’ll send it. And I’ll send it. And And and vote and vote shoot. shoot. Alright.
[1:13:25] Alright. I’ll say yes. Okay. We adjourn. I’ll say yes. Okay. We adjourn. May is adjourned. May is adjourned. Thank you.