good evening everyone and Welcome to our
last meeting in 2024 December 17 2024
uh director Fitz could you please do a
roll call Mayor James here councilman
Winkler here councilman trolinger presid
councilwoman Bryant Ward pres councilman
Jenkins pres Adam Mary you have a quorum
thank you very much if you all could
stand and join us in the Pledge of
Allegiance
please I PL allegiance to the flag from
the United States of America
and to
thece thank you Council if you've had a
moment to uh look over the agenda I will
entertain a
motion Madame mayor yes I move that we
accept the December 17 2024 meeting
agenda as presented thank you very much
do I have a
second second
thank you any uh
discussion all in favor please indicate
by saying I I motion
carries
next we have answer that see needs to be
no she okay next on the agenda is the uh
approval of the minutes from the regular
meeting I'm going to separate these out
uh as two motions
uh for the regular meeting of December
10th 2024 do I have a motion to accept
the uh to approve the minutes from the
regular meeting of December 10th 2024
Madame mayor yes I move that we approve
the meeting the regular meeting minutes
of December 10th for 2024 as presented
thank you very much do I have a second any
discussion all in favor please indicate
by saying I I I motion carries and if
you've had a opportunity to look at the
closed session uh minutes I will
entertain a motion as well Madame mayor
yes the December 10th Clos session
meeting minutes need to be amended to
remove Jay Gullo um as being in
attendance he wasn't ask to attend and
with that I I make a motion that we
accept it with the corrections thank you
very much do I have a mo uh second to
accept the amended closed session
minutes Madam mayor I second the motion
to accept the amended minutes for the
Clos session all right thank you uh any
discussion all in favor please indicate
by saying I I any opposed motion carries
all right that brings us to our uh
public comment if anybody would like to
speak I ask that you state your name
whether you live within the Incorporated
Town limits and if you could limit your
um talking points to 3 minutes that
would be greatly appreciated any
takers all right we'll go into our
monthly reports first up is the finance
uh Department M uh Miss
Larson good evening Council any
questions regarding the um monthly
Treasures report all right I'll open the
floor Council any questions go ahead
thank you thank you Miss Lon um
a couple questions
um there's a um I'm not sure what page
is but it's a there's a 25% variance in
Year date with the sewer Enterprise fund
I think it's uh the pie chart
on page 20 one of
41 it's actually the spreadsheet in the
pie chart the sewer are you referring to
the capital
outlay well the total expenditures yeah
that that so it's the capital it's the
projects we have two projects that are
near completion we still have a few more
items on the Southwest quadrant okay and
um mod one those are coming to an end
and that's why the decrease is
there and then there another variance
for stor Water Management of
88.6% and that's probably again the ms4
on those projects
okay all right any other questions for U
Miss l
thank you very much all right next up is
Human Resources Director Kennedy any uh
questions for director Kennedy's
report mam mayor yes thank you director
Kennedy has the RFP been put out for the
town
manager that was being um managed by the
assistant Town manager and yes they are
uh we are actively recruiting and taking
first applications on January 20th
okay are doing the first review I'm
sorry the first review of applications
on the 20th and we've received
applications the search firm has yes
okay thank
you I'm G to do that question I'll just
follow over the planning director any
applications yet for the plan director
position um I have not heard but it has
gone out okay and then back to the town
man how many applications have you
receed have they received is there a
number
last week 24 24 okay thank
you right any other questions answer
mine thank you very
much all
right director Mossy on
up any questions for uh
inspections thank you for the thanks
again and I know you're
busy um several years ago there was a
request to look at enhancing our code
with a our our code Zone enforcement
talking about a livability code and I
know it's kind of Fallen because of
different reasons is there any potential
that we maybe we could revive that
because I know I provided an example
from Westminster Maryland not that
that's the end all be all but maybe that
can be a template for future
consideration and I asked the question
because uh there's
another
recurring let's to say trouble spot uh
in in our neighborhood and this uh I I
my idea would be perhaps if we beef up
our enforcement actions we get greater
compliance and perhaps have greater
credibility with with the state's
attorney and circuit court so I would
just throw that out there absolutely
it's my hope with the new planning
director we have a fresh start a clean
slate we can work on that livability
code code and then the other couple
issues that I noted on the monthly
report okay um dealing with very minor
issues um so we'll jump right in with
the new director and get to work on the
code thank you you're very welcome any
other
questions uh yes um I know we had a
resident last week that came and you
probably know about this because there
was some further communication about it
via email that expressed some concerns
with
um you know the development of Pine
Grove and the effects thereof as far as
sediment erosion and how the this
particular developer has gotten in
trouble in a different area of Maryland
I'll be it um and I know um met a mayor
I'm not sure if that was through
capacity as um acting Town manager or
not but regardless address those issues
as far as it related to mde
um compliance but I it it's come up a
couple times where either councilman
Jenkins because his Ward is
affected or myself because of
agricopia um have asked in the past of
director Harrington or director stall
when they were here do we have
enough
manpower on the town side to ensure that developments that are going up in
our community are being watched and I
know we can't uncover every rock or
watch every nail being hammered in um
but the response that councilman Jenkins
and I had gotten in the past was look we
use vendors everything's going fine I'll go drive over there and take a look
kind of a thing um what can we do or
what are we already doing to know that
this is being taken care of or or does
the town need more help in that aspect
I'd like to know what your thoughts are
yeah absolutely your Forte basically
absolutely uh I know my personally
myself and inspector clagett we're over
there a whole lot uh we do our routine
patrols through the neighborhoods
keeping an eye on the construction I
will say that uh when issues have come
up over there um Dr Horton's very
responsive uh and we've had us there's
always going to be growing pains uh with
any development anywhere um but they're
very responsive uh they're very quick to
address any
issues um and it it it from my
standpoint being over there every day um
it's going pretty smooth like I said
there's always going to be
hiccups um but I couldn't ask for a
better crew over there to deal with any
issues that come up so I have to give
them credit where it's due
um and as far as the coverage goes we
are keeping a close eye on it uh plan
check does an excellent job for us they
report any issues that they see when
they're in the field um so I'm very
confident that um things will happen
that we're not on site but we're quick
to respond to it and um I don't see the
need that we need any additional
Personnel over there
um it's it's actually running pretty
good I know there's a lot of growth and
I know even beside that you guys have
lots of responsibilities on just
existing structures existing um codes
and so if there is a need um just let
Council know because we don't obviously
the the fix later on is going to be even
more painful than the growing pains um
and I guess maybe if there's any
opportunity to see where we may be
vulnerable mhm um that would be helpful
I know um just growing up in Damascus
seeing Clarksburg the way they developed
too fast and they had
inspectors but essentially they they
just did whatever they wanted and then
later on there were fines but at that
point the whole character and community
that was supposed to be put in place it was it was too late absolutely and
I'm not saying we're at that point but
it's something to just keep in mind you
know as Council like we we want we want
you to have what you need I appreciate
that do you know what I mean absolutely
thank
you um you mentioned plan check do does
plan check do site
visits they or do they just do a rud I
mean to cut off but or do they just do a
preliminary like a plat approval you
know um initially and
then um do they do they do ongoing site
throughout the sure they do have
specific uh inspections that they go out
to um but the inspectors at plan check
have they we work great with them and if
they see something in their travels uh
they'll report it to me so essentially
they're an extra set of OD absolutely
okay I just have one F question that
councilman TR brought up I just I just reminded that the previous plan
director there she indicated they had
monthly meetings with pine grve
I believe that was the case so I don't
know whether because of the turb I know
that's still happening no I have not had
any direct contact with but to your best
recollection during those particular
monthly meeting were there any red flags
or issues or concerns that were raised
not at all not at all um I again I have
to give them credit uh deal with all all
sorts of developers um but they run a
pretty tight ship over there and um
they've not given us any issues or any
concerns they seem to be on top of
things councilman Jenkins I'll address
that we do still meet monthly um aon's
not part of those meetings but the town
manager is uh Kirk is on those meetings
as well as far and the engineers are on
there um there's several people on those
meetings and we are meeting monthly so
you don't I mean so I'll ask it again I
mean there so there's no red flags or
issues or indic
or we had some back and forth things
have gotten
resolved okay thank
you and I would just like to um end with
you know it was great that Miss pinkis
brought this concern to council because
it gave not only us uh awareness of that
others are watching what's going on in
town but um our team was able to all get
together and we spoke with mde and our soil and conservation Specialists uh
storm water management the assits and
town manager our our attorney and the
developers attorney and the developer
and I learned so much about the process
and um Carrie was very responsive with
mde she said nope this happens all the
time and it's not unique to Pine grve
and gave examples of other developments
within our Incorporated Town limits that
they may get some something that they're
pinged on and immediately they fix it
it's kind of like and she told me it's
like a um punch list when you buy a new
house you identified 10 things that may
not be up to your standards and they're
immediately addressed that doesn't mean
that that has gone that's a black mark
against them so it was a very
educational thing for me as well and and
appreciate all that you're doing big
project with a lot of moving parts and uh the the important thing to me in
inspections is if there's a problem how
quickly do they address it and um and
they they've been pretty successful at
that with no push back so that's all I
can ask right thank you and thank you
very much for your hard work too all
right
Chief good evening mayor and councel uh
any questions from the police report
well first of all I don't like that
you're in front of Kings Grant right now
for the reason that you're in front of
Kings Grant so prayers to everyone
involved in that accident but thank you
uh I understand on good authority that
the traffic is moving through and uh you
all are instrumental in that I'll open
up the floor for uh comments thank you
Madame mayor Chief in the um 21 22 23 we
were having problems with retention and
recruitment how are we doing with
retention well we we have done fairly
well with retention uh I I did get
notice that one offer is going to be
leaving this week but uh comparative to
some of our other uh jurisdictions we
haven't done too bad okay we we'd love
to keep it that way okay uh any other questions uh yes it's
just a comment uh Chief thanks for your
report um I did want to thank you for
the continued uh Community work uh with
your officers and toys for to program
and with the Maryland State Police um it
really uh was touching to see the
Departments locally get together um and
affect the community the way that you
did I know sometimes um even though
everybody's trying to do the right thing
it's hard to get everybody on the same
page and um it was great to see that so
thank you for your work in that um 21
tons of food is a is a lot to pick up
and there it's a lot of cans you better
have some friends to help you along the
way right um I did want to ask you as
far as
in this time of year typically we see
kind of a decrease in a number of
certain incidents and an increase of of
incidents at the big box stores is that
what we're seeing typically right now is custom for this time of year we're
not seeing as being as busy as the big
box stores and I think that has a lot to
do with uh loss prevention rules that
the box stores have placed on their
folks who do their security uh we do
find that when we do have things uh some
places the officer will get there and
they've already documented for this
particular individual of interest that
they've already had five 10 20 cases so
when the officer does go they're there
for the whole day writing a report or
whatever but uh uh as the council knows
a uh they helped us purchase a couple of
the trailers that have cameras on them
uh I know one's immobilized and the
other one's going out and I think those
uh help deter crime at our big box
stores uh but you also have this time of
year where domestics and mental health
calls go up and there's it there's been
no uh no slowing down in those sorts of
calls for
service um the other question was and
Madam mayor mentioned it as actually the
second time in what two two meetings
where we've had a very serious Collision
out near bath on
488 and you know that road is of course
where some of council resides like we're
off that road and it's a major thorough
away and we have talked
to um our Traffic Engineers along the
way the last couple years about what do
we need to do to get the attention of
the state with regards to traffic coming
in that area is there a report you guys
can run as far as number of incidents
that we can be looking at comparison
wise for the data between current and
maybe five years ago where we can
present and packets at that that's
actually pretty easy for us to generate
through the uh Maryland State Police
Collision uh system and uh they're
really good about
it all goes by coordinates now but uh we can do that I can tell you that I
personally have walked from the area
there where the traffic light is now all
the way up to the entrance of Kings
Grant with people from Sha citing the
challenges that we have and uh I I know
they have lots of projects and lots of
other things but um when we have
collisions there they're usually serious
collisions I I don't know how bad the
rollover was but tonight's in the roll
over um thank you yeah just let us know
when you get that together and you know
Chief even something as simple as a
putting um a reflective mirror up there
is so they can see because
usually uh the the accidents are because
someone is turning and someone is going
straight and that person coming out of
the entrance is not they can't see that
other car and that's usually what
happens and I've been asking for that I
didn't think that would be so difficult
to provide I I remember that
conversation in the Sha telling us that
the mirrors were not something that they
use as a a traffic cing device but uh I
think as the council can see we had uh three fatal collisions in four days
and our collisions I think it was last
month we we really exceeded the number
of collisions that we had year to date
so uh uh it's things that we keep an eye
on and we we do try to do traffic
enforcement in those areas but the calls
for service this time of year tend to
keep our folks
busy anything else but go ahead thank
you Madame Chief is there anything we
can do on Ken Avenue we've got a lot of
kids that walk up and down there and I'm
telling you folk are going at least 40
miles an hour on Kent Avenue this one
car came around yesterday and it was
going so fast it bearded into the other
lane something has got to happen because
they are not observing that 25 miles an
hour we can uh we can do two things we
can do enforcement we can also put the
speed trailer out to give us some sort
of idea about car counts it and I know
when they see the speed trailer the
natural tendency is for people to slow
down but it helps us pick up on the most
active times of the day for that roadway
because it gives us car counts and
that's helpful for enforcement
okay thank you just to concur with
councilwoman Bryant Ward and councilman
trer I mean we've talked about it and
it's again happening in Clark's run I
mean this morning this young lady I know
where she lives must have gone 50 miles
an hour down east pin and I'm walking in
the street with two dogs and two other
people anyway um so uh so I certainly
concur that you guys are stretched
because of the calls and enforcement is
not it's one element of it so uh Ive
I've still attempted to get the clock
run citizens Association meet with you
guys and I can't get them a date yet
they haven't given me a date I'll reach
out to them again because they're
interested in doing that so and then
we're happy to do so I know you are and
I tell them that but I I can't drag the
horse to water if they don't want to do
it but I'll keep trying and then I know
I forwarded to you and maybe the council
different techniques for traffic
neighborhood traffic coming that I
believe as a council we should try to
look at those as
policies as part of either complete
Street or or zero you know traffic zero
because the state's now doing it and and
so the other jurisdiction and I would
just throw that out there for further
discussion thank you we're happy to be
part of that discussion thank you thank
you Chief keep for great Work Director
fips all right I will open the floor for
any questions for director fips
thank you keep up the great work and the
great report all right um the planning
do you want to take any questions uh
since uh Celia might not be on but any
questions for planning I will try okay
go ahead I have thank you I have a
couple questions uh in her report talks
about reviewed rosewick scoping proposal
I don't know what that is I don't that
was the one that was the one I don't
have any answer okay I'm sorry about
that and then
um what else I had something else I
can't remember what it was oh um so and the there's a bullet about
annexation oh the last one reviewed
annexation restrictions draft Ordinance
do you have any information about what
that is um there's a rule now that when
the zoning changes when and property is
beinged from the county and the zoning
there's a 5e wait right putting that in
ordinance form we do not have that in
ordinance oh you just going to
institutionalize it in the order clean
it up to the state law yes thank
you any other
questions go ahead thank you Madame
mayor um so with all of the growth right
how do we prepare as a town to increase
our capacity to service all of the
growth that we're experiencing is that
something planning looks at you know I
can't imagine that we could continue to
maintain the town on the existing
Staffing levels that we have additional
homes you know additional trash how do
we main how do we prepare for that type
of growth well they do maintain all
those figures they have to report those
to the state department of planning each
year the population growth they keep
track of that the building permits and
all of that
that's something I would think we would
talk about during the budget season and
when we're doing our strategic
planning and also if I can add on to
that with the developers they are
required to do traffic um reports they
uh to they do impact reports as well to
impact uh on the schools on the roads
all of that that is all part of their
package that they have to submit and you
probably know better than I do because
it comes to the Planning Commission uh
and now we've got uh apfo that should be
coming out in January that has been
reviewed and written and U being
reviewed so th that's how they do that
they are required to do studies upon
studies but that's not the question the
question is for us as a town as a
municipality infrastructure do we have
the Staffing that's adequate to cover
the services that we have you know we
could cover you know know the smaller
developments that most of the
developments that we have are not really
big I just noticed Pine grve has town
homes on um rosewick and St Charles so
how do we prepare when when we are
looking at picking up trash with the
number of um you know staff members that
we have are we adequately going to be
able to do that without over tasking
them you know are they going to be
picking up trash from sun up to sun down
you know well that that it's going to be
something we need to talk with each
director about um Pine grve that example
was one that um previous director um
Garner was looking into yeah um those
are things we're going to need to
discuss yes the schools I'm not
concerned about because I know that's
going to happen but as a municipality
we're confined by Resources by space by
you know building capacity to sta staff
and house them we only have so many
garbage trucks so many people to work
the garbage trucks and with time off and
everything now just making sure that we
are adequate to take care of those needs
um one of the things we've always said
we want to be able to provide the same
level of service great service that we
provided in the past and how do we make
sure that we do that keep doing
that go ahead ask I just want to add a
comment g go
ahead uh I had a question as to um so
mayor James mentioned that the
developers are required to of course
provide impact studies whether it's
traffic or environment or whatever
um in our growth as I think a more
mature municipality in getting a an
engineer um that we begin to work with
um is is there an opportunity for us to
also have um maybe look at an
independent entity that can
evaluate traffic studies
because um when someone is coming for an
application and we've seen this multiple
times for their own
development it is not comprehensive as
it relates to the other developments
that are going up either simultaneously
or close in time and unfortunately
that's not how we live
right so development on one side of town
is certainly going to affect the traffic
flow on the other and I've noticed that
they all come back pretty clean and
pretty non-disruptive and unfortunately
six is not that way right and
so uh just in what I do for a profession
there are experts on multiple sides and
unfortunately sometimes um they're paid in a way that supports
their position position before it's
written and I don't want to say that is
what what happens but it's ripe for for
that and so I would say like maybe as we
work on kind of growing out and securing
our infrastructure as councilwoman
Bryant Ward discusses like making sure
we can produce the services our
residents need that we look at perhaps
an
independent traffic engineer at the same
time um because that's they're going to
have the town's best interest in mind as
we evaluate and they can look for any
vulnerabilities as to something produced
by the developer not not to say ill
intent but could happen no
but any other questions go ahead thank
you I I would concur with the previous
comments by counciler and Council Bryant
Ward
um the other related issue I remember I thought in early in our term
didn't we we did a sta a staffing
analysis and study um so I'm going to
make a big assumption that perhaps
that's still somewhat valid and perhaps
that can provide some guidance as we go
into the budget season of what staffing
needs we may or may not need in the
future and then I would again throw out
um which was proposed in last year's
budget then it was
removed uh uh an analys that's because
land use patterns have a significant
physcal impact on us
infrastructure and and I know there was
a budget item that was in the budget in
FY 24 but for some reason it was removed
in the current budget a $90,000 study to
do a land use analysis of the impact of
different land uses on our fiscal
sustainability and I would again argue
for that as well thank you all right
last but not
least acting
director
wood any questions for public
works thank you you came prepared
tonight with two little iPad
huh he stepped up there looking like a
director um question SMI um who monitors
the lights for smco we have all around
that our town the lights are out once
before the light there was a a light out
at the parking rod and um I work with
Brent to get that light turned back on
or bul replaced or whatever but we've
got it all across you know the town
where they're out and the base of some
of the light poles are eroding and I'm
afraid that they're going to topple over
so who takes us who does that who looks
at that um I'm not 100% sure if
uh if we do that or if Smo is
responsible
for I don't believe Smo riding around
looking to
see I'll address that for you okay um
smco is responsible for them but they do
not they do not we have to report them
we have to physically go out there and
get the the there's a number on the
light pole and report that to get it
changed so I got to walk around steeple
just and get the number
we do that in King's grand for sure
taking Brooklyn yes but we we report
that just make out okay so the next
question I can't remember who did it or
why but they came through and that's
when they were shaving the sidewalks
down because the trees were uprooting
them and making them an Mak them a trip
Hazard so it must have stopped because
we have all of these marking on the
sidewalk and nothing's been done in over
a year with those
markings yes so we
have a list of all the sidewalks in the
town that uh need to be repaired or
replaced and we're uh trying to come up
with a contract to uh get all that taken
care of
okay so uh I was working with Kristen
and uh we're going to put more detail
into it so like if we have a contractor
come out to uh look at it they're more
aware what they're going to have to work
with Okay and last question how are we
on the meters are we at 100% yet because
we were supposed to be 100% first year
in we're in the high 90s I think it's
like 97% so we probably never gonna hit
100% might as well just live with that
97% okay thank you so much all right any
other questions just just a thank you
cuz I
know between leaf removal and water man
breaks you'll probably be sick of me
talking to you so I want I want to
publicly say thank you for you guys
going the asra exra effort and I as we
talked earlier I tried to tell the
community that there at times there are
things that are beyond the control of
the pl and Public Works namely the
weather and the water main breaks and
then sometimes priorities change like
water system versus leaf leaf pickup so
I appre appreciate you you and your
staff doing that job thank you very much
thank you all right good thank you very
much all right so matters of council
discussion pension Pension Plan update
director
Kennedy thank you mayor and councel um
as requested I am putting together a
separate uh memo here
for uh where we are with the pension uh
last month when I was here the the
council had asked for some documentation
and further information about where did
some of the numbers come from that I had
presented last month so I was able to go
back to the vendors have them create um
something like a statement of work that
would better explain where the data is
coming from and why the projected costs
are so much more than we initially
planned for and what we had budgeted for
so I've included them um the USI summary
was there um when we went to publication
and then today I was able to get the
final answers and information from amret
so those were included to in a separate
email um neither of those organizations
were able to meet with the council as
requested um before the end of the year
because of the holidays and their staff
taking vacations they have um USI is
committed to being here late um next
month for the January 28th meeting and
Amrit is I believe waiting um for final
information from their team about when
their availability is either for January
14th or for one of the February dates
um so what we wanted to do in the
meantime is make sure you had something
in front of you that showed kind of what
the costs are where our hurdles are
going to be where some of the expenses
are how many moving pieces are part of
this Pension Plan creation um and then
um what we've what we thought would be
the best plan to do is have you guys
have these in front of you read them and if you have any further or continued
questions to give them and send them to
me by the 10th that way we can give them
and pass them along to the vendors so
that they have time to prepare answers
and have all the information ready for
you when they do come and
present right do I have I'll open the
floor any questions for director Kennedy
on
this go ahead thanks again for the work
and the effort i i u is it possible
to have a a sheet or whatever where you
where all the pl are compared on one
piece of paper or you know column A is
this I mean is it this to me right now
for me this is a little disjointed so
I'm having a hard time P together we're
not anywhere near a comparison plan yet
right now we're looking at just these
are the con these are the Consultants
that are getting all those pieces
together and that the administrative
costs are already exceeding um what
we've budgeted by two to three times and
also one of the plans doubles the amount
that we budgeted for even like the
initial payment to start the fund um so
we're not even at the pen to paper stage
yet and that's what I was trying to
explain last month is that because these
costs are already escalating so much
more than what we were that this is
still the intent to keep going because
we will have to have a budget amendment
once we get to get into these contracts
to continue working on this plan because
it is more than what we
anticipated so that's why we've got this
in front of you is to have those further
questions about um where we go from here
well we get more information um in
January when they when uh USI comes here
will they be able to say here's exactly
what we can do for you is that the
intent for January or and um AMR this is
what we can and cannot do in that way we
can
have a conversation with them saying
okay we kind of understand and this is
quite admittedly above my head on this
but what they're trying to put together
is that the kind of conversation you
envision on um in January I I I believe
the conversation is going to be just to better help answer the counil
questions about the challenges um with
the plan that we are trying to create
okay thank you go ahead thank you Madame
mayor is it possible for us to see the
ask what is the scope of the work that
we're asking these actuarials to do I I
gave um I gave them the 12 bullet points
that the council selected out of the
Bolton plan and I said we would like to
make a plan based on these 12 bullet
points so if I go so you're telling me
to go back where to look at that the
December 19th meeting when Bolton
presented their um their their summary
of the different plan options that the
council got to look at and choose
December 19th 2023 yep and it should be
also in the approved budget um for
fiscal year 25 because we also included
a copy of that in there I believe
all right any other
questions go
ahead is there
any I don't know how to how to I guess
what I'm kind of still hung up on is Bolton was hired and and obviously I
came into this this late to the to the
table so to speak and it had already
been discussed but Bolton came with a
selection of
ideas but nobody ever asked whether they
were feasible or whether they were even
practical I guess is what I'm so is
there is there any response from this
USI or amret as
to what Bolton has suggested if that
could be
tweaked to be more accommodating or to
be
more I guess um match what's already
existing in the marketplace that was
actually their first response when I
handed the the B bullet points to them
their first response was we should maybe
tweak and try something different
yeah they um to do it exactly as written
they said would be very challenging so I
guess I mean if if Bolton had suggested
that we build a spaceship to Mars
whether that's practical or not I mean
that's what we're trying to do correct
yeah what what Bolton provided us was
some very very high level Concepts and
made a lot of assumptions a lot of
vagaries okay I think that that's we can
spin our wheels and try to create
something that's
non-existent or we can go and find
something that's already in place that
matches what the police
officers are are entitled to and what
they're asking for and just find
something that more is in line with
where the work's already been done
because I I I if I hear you correctly
you're saying this isn't just to run the
plan this is just to get it up and
running is already exceeded and and some
estimate of the annual um annual
Administration once it is in planned um
so these numbers also include the legal
plan document which is will be that
probably just that one time cost unless
the plan changes in the future because
um the idea was that this wraps around
Maryland so if Maryland changes then we
have to go through the legal process
again um so the legal part would be a
one-time cost and then the
administrative fees are are significant
year-over-year and then we already know
one of them said the Actuarial F go up
at least 3% every year
okay and this includes public works as
well yes thank you Madame mayor yes um
councilman Winkler just a correction
when Bolton sat here this was based upon
we received a list of other
municipalities who had this outside of
um the big thing at that time was um
what was the plan leops and we said we
were not doing leops corre find other
municipalities of similar size and scope
and what are they doing and they did
have plans for their Police Department
that's what Bolton brought to us the
recommendations we had multiple
conversations and at the the last
conversation ended with Miss Larson
saying that one is doable that's why we
moved forward we we didn't have one
conversation we had several
conversations looking at the carve out
and what could and couldn't be done we
moved forward because when we got
different conversations we saidwell that
won't work if we do that this is going
to be that the in the last conversation
that made this Council move forward with
the plan and we all moved forward was
because we were told this was
doable disagree with that statement
because you weren't pres it was never
said it was doable yes it I would I
suggest that you go back and look at the
umil meeting counc Brian word I'm not
trying to be argumentative but the
evidence is such this plan does not
exist in the United States if I can
interrupt for a second the the its
doable plan was based on much lower
administrative costs and a much lower
buyin and now that we're discovering
that that is not the case then miss
Larson's comment about it's doable is no
longer valid because but at that time
and that's why we moved forward when
what we're saying now is that this is no
longer the case I understand but we
moved forward because we were told it
was
doable we also were making a lot of
assumptions about what the plan would
include and and how how it would be
execut if what it looks like financially
and what it looks like to create
understand all that I understand the
reality versus Theory I'm clear right we
made a decision based on Theory okay but
we made the decision based upon the
advice and the information that was
given to us so I asking that
we we're putting up a lot of barriers to
this thing and I I just feel that it's
barriers and a a lack of desire to see
it move forward that's causing all of
this anxiety if this is not the plan we
they only wanted certain things then we
find the plan that would get to the the
retirement age that they were asking
that matches what we approved and agreed
to instead of making it something bigger
than what we started out with so I'm
asking so if you're telling me that the
ask in the plan that we had from Bolton
is the thing that saying we can't do
this we can't do that I don't believe
that there's anything on this Earth
that's totally impossible I I can't
imagine that this has never been done
when we saw multiple municipalities that
had retirement plans for the police
officers that matched what they were
asking why did we deviate also asking
for public works as well if this was
just as simple as a police plan this
would be a completely different approach
but even Bolton Said Public Works is not
a thing including them is that what's
causing the
problem well no it's still overall it's
still going to be overall costs well I
mean I'm looking at this not just from
you know from this perspective but from
a financial responsibility and this is
you know much much more than than where
we think we're going to be and and I
just want to make sure that we
understand understand before we put in
time and effort that this is almost
double just administratively from the
ground and I don't think it is feasible
and I don't think it
is you know I mean we could we could
make a plan all day but I don't know
that that's in the best interest for
fiscal responsibility for the town I
think there's other solutions that I
mean and Karan and I have said this in
multiple meetings there are other there
are other options that are more fiscally
responsible to the town and more
sustainable to the town that will still
accomplish the same
thing that is not going to take all
these steps and create something from
scratch we can use our existing options
to do
this and and we've the treasurer and I
have been saying that since the
beginning we can we can do the same
thing for less without the complications
of paying thousands tens of thousands of
dollars to another consultant to another
agency to for legal fees and for all
actuarials and trust funds and finance
commit you know all that we wouldn't
have those extra expenses and it's it's
educating and getting people better of
managing the funds and the money and
matching we can still do an employer
contribution maybe get the employee to
put some skin in the game and and get
them enough money that they can retire
at age 50 or 55 or wherever it wants to
be and I think part of the hangup here
is we're looking for a plan that has it
in writing that says you can leave at 55
and I think if we do it the right way
with like the other plans that we have
that exist that we already are part of
through Mission Square then once you
have that Financial goal then go right
like we don't have it could be at 45 if
that's what they wanted to retire
at I just think there's it's just it's a lot of money to to to go down a
path to to create something
that like to cman Winkler's Point other
organizations already have existing
plans that we could mirror better or
again include people we're including
people that are not typical and Bolton
Said that too and a matter of fact in
Plan Three which is what the council
wanted Bolton very specifically said
that this was probably a decrease in
benefits to the public works team I
don't remember him saying it's actually
in it's actually in the report
underneath Plan Three it says in writing
this is probably decrease in
benefits and that's the one that the
council picked
anyway any other comment yes absolutely
um thank you for
your um contextual analysis from what I
hear you are saying today that you and I
don't think Council found Bolton to do
the analysis right you guys presented
Bolton to give us the analysis right who found
Bolton how did Bolton end up Captain
Norris what's that Captain
norrison all right so
Bolton they have no idea what they're
talking about essentially is what I'm no that's not what I'm saying Bolton gave us what we asked
for which was very high level concepts
of things that we might be able to do in
some world but you're you're telling us
today that that you can come up with a
plan that gives us everything we're
looking for and more at a fraction of a
cost that isn't going to require any
thirdparty vendors it's not going to
require any legal oversight it's not
going to require you know maintenance
cost to anything that we're looking at
from amret which we got today and from
USI
um is that that's what you're telling us
that you've got something in mind that's
going to
eliminate any need for increase of taxes
to provide benefits for the police
department as well as Public Works yes
and I believe Treasurer tried to present
that as part of the budget process this
year okay and that's of
equal detail and insight as what what
Bolton gave us is that fair I just want
to make sure that we we understand
because you're trying to tell us you've
got it all figured out we're not paying
attention what as to the needs of our
Police Department what we're trying to
tell you is there's other options but it
requires the employees to have some
fiscal responsibility meaning see a
financial advisor every year to make
sure they're on track by doing a
contribution or a matching
contribution um I'll just throw out
numbers say the town says okay we're
going to do 5% matching the employee
does 5% that would be 10% going into a
um contribution plan that the employee
would build up over 25 years and if you
look at rate of returns and how much
risk the employee wants to take but they
have to take some responsibility and
monitor this so it's the town will be
and then they also have more varieties
on choices they can use the funds how
they want when they want if they want to
work longer if they want to take
everything it gives them more options
instead of having a defined plan
they'd have a contribution plan aren't
you
assuming in making that analysis that is better for them than what the
employee actually wants so for example
when we look at other police departments
throughout the state and locally that's
not a comparable plan I'm not assuming
anything but they already have a pension
plan what it would do is give them
another Avenue another another bucket to
choose from instead of um saying well
this is what you get this is all you get
because this is what the plan is you
have no say in how you're going to
manage it how much it's going to make
you have no say in it and it also gives
the talent say okay we know exactly each
year what it's going to cost us to
provide this benefit to the employee but
again it's it's saying well the employee
needs to take some fiscal responsibility
and the town will help them with
that okay um
councilwoman Bryant Ward asked for what
the ask was of these companies can you
remind me and I know we talked about
this the other time how why the net was
cast for the vendors to participate and
trying to create this bolt-on plan that
they said was feasible it's nobody we
didn't ask them to create a unicorn we
asked them to give us something that we
could use but we've got we've got two
you did what we asked you to do and we
we're scheduling them to talk to us
about it how are these the only two that
responded out of 10 are these two that
responded out of two no there's three
other vendors that uh chose not to
engage with us okay when I gave them
what our ask was and I told them and I
showed them the 12 bullet points that we
wanted to make a plan out of um they
either um stopped communicating or they
declined to um
participate and so these are the only
two that are still
left that I have asked that are willing
to engage and to try how does this
request go out that we send it writing
do we make phone calls um so a lot of it
was so I started by reaching out to
Bolton and asked them for who they
worked with I reached out to our Brokers
and asked who their people work with I
reached out to Mission square and asked
who the who they have relationships with
and each one provided me multiple
sources so Mission Square provided me
three options andf P had provided me two
options um and then uh Bolton had
reached out to some contacts and I never
heard back from them so um so these are
from existing sources that have
relationships with people who do it who
have given me those points of contacts
okay and then from there you get the
points of contact and
then and then I reached out to to the
points of contacts and I said hey here's
what we're looking to do here's where
we're starting from are you willing to
help us um create this plan do we do
that in
writing emails I mean most of it was
email communication um and then um once
I made the initial contact then um a lot
of the discussion happened via Zoom
calls can I see those emails to the
vendors set can we see those are you
okay with that that's really going
that's operations that's going beyond
the scope of what the council is to do
is to start going into communication on
that and and to you know personally I
feel like that's a questioning my
Integrity of being able to ask for the
right thing if if the council doubts
that i' I've gone out and seek five and
talked to multiple sources I believe
that you did okay then why do we need I
mean I don't understand what my emails
are going to help I just want to make
sure that we're on track what happens
appar what appears to happen with this
project and it may be the nature of the
project itself is that one step leads to
three studies which has been happening
for the last I don't know six eight
years um it seems strange to me and it
that we paid Bolton and maybe this is
maybe this
is who who they are I guess is what
we're we're hearing that we paid them
all that money and they're not willing
to communicate with us back as to what
they've recommended so I'm trying to
figure
out but they they made a re that's all
we asked them to do is make
recommendations and then they did that
so there's nothing more for Bolton to do
they were never building a they were
never buil having them build a plan was
never part of the conversation
understood but that's the basis for what
we're trying to build and we're saying
that that Foundation is not appropriate
I have given all these vendors Bolton's
plan right so they have seen exactly
what Bolton gave us right so okay so
typically if you've got one piece of
information you give it to a separate
expert and they say nah that doesn't
work I've seen it where you go back to
that first source of information and say
hey they say this is a problem do you
want to comment on that sounds like you
tried to do that but they did not
respond back
um I talked to Tom last week with an
email and his response was you know I
said hey just for some clarity of what
you did and and he said what they gave
us was some highlevel concepts for
somebody else to build a plan off of um
you know they're I gave them you know I
gave the amarant USI the information and like Bolton said they they did a lot
of their work based on a lot of
assumptions and some rough Actuarial
data that is not the same Actuarial data
that we will need to use once the plan
is created because once we have a clear
definition of of what the scope of that
is going to be then another Actuarial
will give us actual numbers of what the
plan will be based off of when we look
at these
two
um statement works that you've given us
would you say they're Apples to Apples
no
um each one has a different approach you
I is more of uh an all-in-one um
organization so it'll be a one point of
contact streamline they will manage all
the moving parts for us whereas amaret
is more of a u peac mail consultant
where they will have they will reach out
and have separate pieces um a separate
trust a separate legal team a separate
everything and communicate individually
with each of those rather than under one
umbrella because the
I mean they're vastly different as to
the maintenance and annual um but the
request was the same they had all the
same information and this is what they
came back as their plan of this is how
we would develop it based on on their
area of expertises but to be clear and I
just want to make sure I understand this
is not for a this is not for the plan
yet this is to develop a
plan and this is the um expected cost to
not only create the plan but then to
maintain it once it is
created I guess my big
concern
is as you've stated it it's Unique to us
as a
town it's Unique potentially
to um the
vendors and again going back say
something that we had talked about on
developers and traffic
studies um you know is there an
independent
Source aside
from um perhaps aside from the
Departments and I say that in plural who
can analyze these issues right I
mean I mean and I don't know I don't
know I'm concerned about it but
have either of these been
given
uh the Miss Kennedy and Miss Larsson
plan no because the council asked us to
pursue Plan Three and so that's what I
requested okay those are all questions I have
thank you right any other questions just
a quick question thank you uh so uh is
there any participation by police
department members or Public Works in
any conversations you have so you
understand their needs or their feelings
we're not at that what this is wouldn't
be part of that that conversation this
is just developing a a a plan like
this the the members of Public Works and
police are
not are not trained in the same way that
HR and finance are in these areas so I
don't we're not to what are their needs
because the plan that we picked is clear
about age
requirements uh uh contribution
requirements and those this the stuff
that we have to to wrinkle out is not a
decision from the Departments it's a
decision uh from the operational side
how much are we going to contribute when
are we going to contribute to it are the
employees going to have skin in the game
are we grandfathering anybody that's
nothing that involves the
Departments I guess that just I'm
disappointed by that because I think
okay you're you're trying to build the
plan but it it just seems to me that it
would be great to have an ongoing
dialogue with potential participants in any plan whatever it is so I'm really
disappointed that there's no Outreach uh
participation there just just a dialogue
to talk and listen so and I would just
add that as as another
concern but again again councilman we're
not in any state stage where where those
are needed yet if we get further down
the road then maybe that would make
sense but right now well we're not there
I respectfully disagree because
again existing and potential future
employees are going to be engage are
going to be part of the process and
they're going to be from my view again
unless I'm getting it wrong and
apparently I am they're going to be
blindsided and they're going to have no
knowledge no participation no
they're going to be like blind almost so
all I'm I agree with you this is maybe
not the time but I would think as good
best practices you would have a dialogue
with the staff that's right but we don't
do that for we don't do that for any
other benefit we don't do that for
health insurance decisions we don't do
that for I'm not going to argue with you
I this different I'm just trying to
express my disappointment and and and my
ask is that there be a dialogue simple
very simple thank you okay councilman
Jenkins way before the plan that was
decided to move
forward we had the conversations with
the police department and what they were
looking for they were looking for the
age they were looking
for not having to work 30 years extra so
did have those conversations prior to we
haven't had any sense but we did have
those conversations I didn't say we
didn't the say why can't you continue
well maybe once we get like uh director
Kennedy said at this point it's more
operational get the plan going first and
then
but well I I still like express my
disappoint all right well thank you well
we look forward to um seeing what
happens in January thank you for a very
robust conversation appreciate that
moving on to our next part is a reports
from the mayor and Town Council
councilman
Winkler um historic preservation
committee um met with a local architect
regarding some of the updates to uh the
train station and a feasibility study so
once we um about kind of finishing off
that as a as a potential Museum um to
how some of the historic uh artifact for
the town um and once we get that
information back we'll have that to uh
hopefully in January or February to
present to council for moving forward
with it great thank you very much
councilman
challinger no nothing thank you
councilwoman ryant Ward so I'm I
reported on the Planning Commission last
week but I wanted to report that the
chief and I did me to talk about the DCC
and I completed all of the past due
annual reports reports that need to be
submitted I'm going to bring them up for
um to talk with um assistant Town
manager Miner um so that we can get
those filed and then we did discuss
going forward you know a new board that
would represent the entire community and
then looking at having establishing um
board meetings because we would need to
do that once we're back in good
standings based upon the annual filings
then we'll look to revise the bylaws and
in the Articles of Incorporation and um
identify a new resident agent and so
that we get things moving again well
thank you and thank you for all your
hard work that's great councilman
Jenkins uh thank you and councilman
Brian W thank you for that effort that's
really good I appreciate that effort I
know it takes a lot of work to do that
um I was not able to attend Wednesday's
last Wednesday's um Tri County council's
Bicycle pedestrian infrastructure
committee meeting unfor I was in transit
so I could not attend but I will provide
a uh report out from that meeting at our
next meeting because this there will as
we all know there will be a significant
impact on pedestrian safety projects all
over the state because of the
significant uh budget cuts to the
Maryland Department of transportation's
budget so I'll give a report in January
thank you thank you and I had the great
pleasure and honor of attending
Washington squares holiday event over
the weekend which boy those people can
cook and uh it was really nice and they
are just always so grateful for the town
um when they apply for Grants to that
they are recipients of those at least
they have been for the last couple years
so they wanted me to thank you all and
so I just have um this is our last
meeting of 2024 so as we conclude this I
wanted to take a moment to acknowledge
the hard work and dedication of our town
staff you all have been absolutely
amazing this year we weathered some
storms didn't we we said goodbye to our
dear friend and colleague Jeff Garner we
also saw several key team members move
on to advance their careers a bitter
bittersweet Part of growth and success
and we continue to address important
issues such as water allocation
development within our Incorporated Town
limits in infrastructure that tends to
fail at the most inopportune times and
Personnel changes but together we made
it through this year and you know what
maybe next year's going to be a little
less hectic so I would also like to
recognize Carolyn Johnson who is
retiring after almost 24 years of
dedicated service to the town of L pla
her retirement is well well deserved and
we wish her nothing but the best in her
next chapter of her life um she will
leave a mark here on Town um she was
quite uh she is quite the presence here
and she will be greatly missed looking
ahead to 2025 holds exciting
opportunities for our town we will
continue collaborating with the county
on the library and water
allocations make strides towards
creating a more walk downtown expand the
bike trail that is going down um on
Radio Station Road and work to make
bring a greater presence of the Arts
into the home into our hometown which
should we should see something visible
in the first quarter so I personally
want to wish you all and your families
the very best may you enjoy a joyous
holiday season and a prosperous healthy
new year thank you and
um again thank you for uh all that you
do for the town and with that I call
this meeting adjourned at
7:09 have a good night