[This transcript was generated automatically from audio using AI and hasn't been reviewed by a person -- it can contain mistakes, including plausible-sounding sentences that were never actually said. Treat it as a starting point, not a verbatim record.]

[5:52] That way. And then, as you recall, that the Friends of Hillmore partnered with the Aden Committee to go for the grant. And we won that grant and got over at least $500 worth of plants. And the Friends of Hillmore are offering another $500 to help complete the project. So I think it's really a good idea that we're all on the same page. And I'm glad to see that it's all working. So thank you for approving our little project. Hope it continues.
[6:22] The other item was the zone 2A for Hillmore, and this one is a little bit confusing because, as I remember it, I'm hoping you can clarify this at some point tonight, but as I remember it, zone 2A, I thought it was just that really steep hillside, that's on that side of the property, and that's where the GLC was trying to make a trail down the hill and it was way too steep.
[6:49] So I think there's a lot of confusion in the community that the land on top of the hill there that goes out all way out to Sheridan Springs is those three or four lats that you're thinking about selling to the simple group and I think it's just getting confusing if you say that two a is part of hillmore because it's really not it's adjacent to it.
[7:16] And I think it needs to be considered when you're thinking about planning for homework,
[7:21] but I don't think we should be referring to it as part of homework. Just confused as the public.
[7:28] So I'm personally in favor of what simple is proposing and I think it's a great fit and benefit
[7:35] for homework, but I think the city needs to retain some small part of that land for public access
[7:42] to public land. And this is not, in any way, I'm not trying to disrespect anybody or an
[7:50] group, but I think that public land should have public access, and it should be in perpetuity,
[7:56] not subject to a different private owner or a different city council or whatever. So if there's
[8:02] some way we could put some little easement or some little strip of conservation, something that
[8:09] preserve the public access. I think it would be a good idea. Thank you. Thank you.
[8:18] Anybody else from the public like to speak?
[8:26] Good evening. Very Joe Fez and Meyer,
[8:28] 1085 South Lake Shore Drive. I would like to address item number seven. I am always very
[8:35] disappointed when we do not have packet materials for the public and for anyone else that's
[8:43] voting. I don't think it's fair to the commission to listen to an oral report or be passed out
[8:50] a packet that's not available to the public at home that may be viewing. In other words, if there's
[8:57] paper materials, you may get a copy. Maybe there's copies for the audience, but the people at home
[9:04] wouldn't have access. And that's why we have this packet because we want everyone informed and
[9:09] to speak and articulate items in communication. So I'm going to do my best on number 7, which is
[9:17] zone 2A and I believe Betty referred to it as that steep slope attached to lot 1 up on shared
[9:26] in springs. I voted against actually selling lot 1. I made an amendment and tried to pull that out
[9:33] of the package of the surplus, because, and it failed, and we had two other people vote with me.
[9:41] But it's important that we retain ownership.
[9:45] This is the same idea as hellmore, not having easements, not having restrictions.
[9:50] We did our best with hellmore, but we can do better with Sheridan Springs, retaining ownership
[9:55] because that's the only North access, and we're not quite sure of the future of the other
[10:02] access point to the west, but retaining ownership so that we can control it. Obviously there's a parking lot there already. That's paved that we can use for the highway 50 construction. So I don't think decisions have been made about that. I also don't believe that you should be suggesting anything to the council with that steep slope because it is part of lot one.
[10:30] And this is part of an appraisal I believe that was given to or purchased had done commissioned by the city administrator.
[10:41] So I'm not sure how we use an appraisal if you're recommending that we peel off part of that property.
[10:47] Again, you may speak and correct me. I don't. I don't have the facts because it's not in the packet. So let's try to do better. We know we can. Thank you.
[10:55] So don't don't take a recommendation on number seven, please.
[11:00] Thank you.
[11:02] Okay, any other comments from the public?
[11:09] Sheerian, six or three centers,
[11:11] street up, piggyback off of Betty and Mary Joe about that.
[11:19] Zone one, piece of property.
[11:22] I think it's important for us to keep something
[11:25] there for us to get through.
[11:27] The other thing is number eight.
[11:32] I liked what Peggy put in there.
[11:34] We need wide sidewalks there.
[11:37] Because we do have a lot of people who use wheelchairs
[11:41] and various objects there.
[11:44] So we just need to keep it wide.
[11:47] Today was a great day.
[11:48] I thought everybody learned a lot.
[11:51] I hope people could come on Saturday.
[11:54] And again, I'd like to thank all of you for your time, your energy, and what you're trying
[12:02] to do for our community and saving, Hilomord, and making it a wonderful place that everybody,
[12:11] the locals and our visitors will be able to use, and it's going to be a long drawn-out
[12:19] ordeal here.
[12:20] But thank you guys.
[12:21] Thank you. Any other comments from the public? We got two rates from the microphone.
[12:32] Ross, Magnusen, 450, Conch Club Drive.
[12:40] I agree with the two other speakers about the access through Zone 1 to Sheridan Spring Road, which is behind Piglet Bickley.
[12:50] and there should be some sort of pathway where we can walk through the park and then
[12:58] go to like a little bit of Lake Chineva town square as well as the Piccola Biggle and the shopping
[13:04] areas back around 2022 or so when there was multiple meetings at the Badger when we had
[13:17] focus groups or strategy sessions, different ideas. It was a recurring theme that we were
[13:24] going to be some sort of path. Now I understand as wetlands and it has to be sort
[13:29] of planned accordingly, but the river going from the train, the old train bridge here,
[13:39] all the way down to where that road is.
[13:42] There's a gravel road by the water or treatment center.
[13:49] That has been re-done.
[13:51] They put new cul-de-sax in there that looks great.
[13:53] I think that the tree removal and the progression
[14:03] has been made by the river looks great.
[14:05] and it has been minimal, but it's tastefully done.
[14:11] The bridges look good, but I think that there should be some sort of a pathway
[14:16] where people can walk and access the, uh,
[14:21] particularly basically that area there by walking to the park.
[14:25] And I think that's the lot one, which I believe is by surf pro,
[14:32] You know, the serve-pro building is the business that is the farthest into that area, somewhere there would be great to have a path where people could walk through the park.
[14:47] And then, you know, previously when people have been talking about homework, you know, it's like, okay, we identify property that may be for sale.
[15:00] You know, something that we're saying, okay, we're considering selling this to a nonprofit or a business, and if that's the case, then maybe there should be identifying a lot or lots that are going to be for sale and then having some sort of criteria or vetting process or some sort of
[15:26] open sale that allows other people to consider putting their bid in or proposing something
[15:35] that may mesh to a park like atmosphere.
[15:41] Okay.
[15:42] That's all I have to say.
[15:43] Thank you.
[15:45] Any other comments from the public?
[15:53] Please state your name and address and if you could just pull that one.
[15:56] in a living at Geneva Hills, which is 1384 by El Corde Roll, which is eight.
[16:03] Here's a common I have to make. I have been a like disc golf, and I don't know why you
[16:09] want to, that's a nice part. And here's a common I have to make. You know, it's a little
[16:16] deceiving. It's a dog part in there. But you know what the people do to me? It says,
[16:21] They have, you can let the dog lose in the, in the, in the fence.
[16:26] It's, it's, it's, it's a little deceiving.
[16:27] It says, doesn't need to be on a leash.
[16:29] So he let the dogs loose.
[16:30] I mean, all the time when I'm at that part.
[16:33] Now to have pretty, it could shape because I've outrun dogs.
[16:36] And I had one sucker on me, a real big terrier at the veterans part.
[16:40] And I had a weird feeling there was a bunch of cars there,
[16:42] but no people.
[16:43] And I turned to look this big guy, came up behind me.
[16:47] And he had a leash in his hand.
[16:49] and they let loose and I, you know, I did, I ran that dog and I could have climbed the fence,
[16:54] but I didn't and I just weighed goodbye in that size. So I think it's just, they think that's funny,
[17:01] you know, and I've been bit twice by dogs and connoisseurs, it's not funny. So I think that that's the
[17:07] reason why they, maybe they don't know how to play sports and I like this golf, but that's funny at all.
[17:13] I don't know, I don't know the reason, I know that the city owns that property, but I don't know
[17:18] Where would you move that part to that disk off over to move it to it?
[17:23] This is just public comments, so you're speaking to some people where you're going to
[17:27] That's the only thing I think that's a little strange, but you know, but that's all in common
[17:31] I have to make it so and there's nothing I can do I just leave because people are that's
[17:36] Uncivilized so let dogs decide before you leave could you just give us her name and address one more time
[17:41] Please oh and do yeah
[17:43] And I'll tell Carl Roe, which is age 13.85.
[17:46] Oh, Carl Roe.
[17:47] OK, great.
[17:47] We just need that for the record.
[17:49] Oh.
[17:49] So I hope you don't move it anyhow.
[17:50] Thank you.
[17:51] OK, anybody else from the public?
[17:58] All right.
[17:58] Seeing them, we'll go ahead and move on.
[18:02] Before I do item number four, I'm just going to take the letter
[18:04] to announce that Saturday is another round of our strategic
[18:09] planning.
[18:10] We had a session today at the Riviera from 9 to noon.
[18:14] We had approximately 40, 50 people show up to participate in this strategic plan and since we're being broadcast I do want to announce that Saturday at Lake Geneva Middle School goes through the front main doors follow back to the cafeteria and there will be a second think tank we call it session so we'd love to see as many residents as possible to attend that so thank you.
[18:41] All right, so moving on, then item number four is approval of the minutes from December 3rd
[18:48] 2025 is our motion
[18:51] Mr. Hap motion to approve. Yes, second
[18:55] Second second, but Mr. Ed and any corrections or changes
[19:00] See none all those in favor. I I
[19:04] Post okay minutes are approved
[19:08] Item number five consultant report and by the way are parked director Mr. Winder is under the weather with the flu. So he's not here with us tonight.
[19:18] But Mr. Kojovic would you like to thank you mayor. I spoke to David.
[19:24] We are earlier in he sends his regrets as the mayor mentioned. They have the flu circulating through his family at home.
[19:31] I'd also similar to what the mayor said, but would like to invite the public to one of
[19:38] Hillmore's public input means to be held on February 5th or February 7th Saturday, upstairs
[19:44] in the police training room, the initial three draft layouts of Zone 1 or the white river
[19:50] corridor next to the skate park will be presented for public comment and your opinion matter,
[19:56] So, please make an effort to attend.
[20:00] Recently, this past Monday, I was invited to give a brief update on the Hillmore Project to City Council's committee of the whole.
[20:08] There are several important issues, mostly related to funding that were brought to the attention of Council, which will be discussed in future meetings.
[20:17] I wanted to reiterate that the mayor is encouraging everyone to participate in the City Strategic Planning process.
[20:24] there is a survey that you can access on the city's website that's still open and I think
[20:32] the consultant mentioned approximately 150 people had completed it so far. I mean it would
[20:37] be nice to see that get up to 1,000 so we're really encouraging people to participate. The city
[20:44] will also be updating its comprehensive outdoor recreation plan or court plan in 2026.
[20:54] I believe
[20:54] make an effort to participate in that as well and provide input as the city and the park
[20:59] commission move through the planning process in 2026. The plans we are developing for
[21:05] Hillmore will be incorporated in the both plans, the court plan and the city strategic plan.
[21:11] Moving forward, we need to maintain good communication with city council, other committees and
[21:16] commissions, especially the city's park commission. One of our agenda items tonight will be
[21:24] we're guarding Highway 50 frontage. Also with the help of Lowell, we hope to have the next
[21:33] issue of the Hillmore newsletter out next week. Lowell is also helping develop a poster and
[21:39] handouts to promote attendance at the February 5th and 7th public input means there's a
[21:44] copies circulating on a desktop here. If you'd like to volunteer to help distribute some of the
[21:51] So there's a round town for these two meetings, please let me or Lewell know and with that I just wanted to end with thanking Lewell publicly for all this help on on these projects.
[22:06] Okay, very good any questions for Michael.
[22:09] Lewell, where will these all for the public's sake? Where will these all be posted so if people want to?
[22:15] I think we're going to print them out actually. It looks much better.
[22:18] This, yeah, Mike, do you want to?
[22:20] No, they're going to be in color.
[22:22] This is going to print them out.
[22:23] We'll have about 50 posters, eight and a half by 11
[22:26] that we could distribute to businesses
[22:28] and also about 400 low handouts.
[22:30] We could leave it a little table tops for people to pick up.
[22:33] OK, and then also on our suited web page.
[22:35] Yep, put it in.
[22:36] OK, perfect.
[22:37] So people can find it.
[22:38] OK, very good.
[22:39] Anything else for Michael?
[22:41] All right, moving on then.
[22:42] Item six, a presentation discussion.
[22:44] We're going to super PAC of his vegetation survey of Hilmer property with Zach Brown.
[22:50] Good evening.
[22:51] Welcome back.
[22:52] Hi, thanks.
[22:53] Thanks for having me.
[22:54] If I could just take a second to introduce Zach is the senior biologist with sewer pack.
[23:02] He and his team spent this past year going over the Hilmer property and resolving in this report.
[23:09] they put a lot of effort into it, and I talked about it, and it's going to be a big help to
[23:16] us moving forward.
[23:18] Thank you.
[23:19] Okay.
[23:20] All right.
[23:21] So thanks again for having me looking forward to presenting this to you guys and helping another
[23:26] other way we can.
[23:29] So with that, it looks like everything's loaded up, so we'll go ahead and get started.
[23:35] You could move to the next slide.
[23:36] All right, so additionally, we received a request from the former mayor to conduct a vegetation
[23:46] inventory of the property back in 2024. Due to some miscommunications and requirements for
[23:55] additional information,
[23:58] that we'd ever finalized that request. And so when Mayor Krauzi
[24:03] was elected and took over, we got that confirmed, and we were able to continue with our work
[24:11] at Commission this year, or at the Hillmore property this past year. So we got that request to
[24:20] conduct a biological or botanical inventory specifically, survey for rare species, and then provide
[24:27] estimates of invasive species cover. So specifically,
[24:31] uh,
[24:32] uh,
[24:32] uh,
[24:32] uh,
[24:33] at species invasive species. So just so everybody is aware, we the commission has surveyed the
[24:41] property before, the commission surveyed the property back in 1989, 1991, and I provided those
[24:49] as an appendix in the report, so everybody could take a look at those just summarizing real quick,
[24:54] 83 species were found and 51 species were found respectively for those dates. So those were
[25:02] completed, those historical surveys were completed, as a wetland and corridor delineation
[25:09] request from, I can't remember exactly who they're from at this time, but it's in the
[25:15] report.
[25:17] So, for this current investigation, we utilized the roughly utilized the DNR's time
[25:25] the under method, I'm just going to skim through it real briefly so everybody can get a better
[25:31] understanding of how I did the assessment and how that may influence the results.
[25:38] So basically what I did was took a map of Hillmore and multiple overlapping maps, including
[25:45] historical, aerial photography, soils, light, wetland, or delineated wetland maps, and then
[25:55] defined assessment areas based off of my perception of the limits of specific communities.
[26:05] And so I did all this before going out into the field. We then visited. So as we move to each
[26:14] one of those defined assessment areas, we start our timer clock, so much like I have going here.
[26:22] So, basically, the objective is to record all species that are observed within the assessment area.
[26:31] And you do this in five-minute intervals, and I'll explain why in a second.
[26:34] So, basically, you record all species you can find in five minutes.
[26:39] And then you can stop, pause, take bathroom breaks, or eat lunch, and then continue the survey for an additional five-minute interval.
[26:49] You stop the survey when you stop finding new species or when you find less than 5% of the running total of the species you've seen thus far.
[27:05] And so there's a time limit to the survey.
[27:09] So what that means for the surveys is I didn't necessarily find every species that's out there,
[27:15] but I found most of them. So that's just something everybody should be aware of.
[27:23] So after you're finished with that, you reach your limit, you then assign estimated
[27:30] percent cover values for every species you do identified in that assessment area.
[27:37] And then
[27:38] And after that, you take information on disturbances, you know, is the area drained?
[27:47] Are there drain tile present?
[27:48] Are there subsurface drain tiles, features, ditches, fill, other notable disturbances,
[27:55] presence or evidence of mowing or logging?
[27:58] All this gets wrapped up into the summary at the end of the assessment.
[28:04] So, these types of surveys generally take about an hour to complete, so an individual assessment
[28:10] area, but diverse units, like the one I have in the picture here, which is not at the
[28:16] Hilbert property. Unfortunately, this is a very, very high-quality Calcary's fund in Jefferson County,
[28:22] but like sites like this can take a couple of hours to complete per survey, because they have
[28:28] hundreds of species.
[28:31] So just a few quick brief definitions before I jump in just for clarification
[28:37] sake. So native species here I'm specifically talking about species indigenous to Wisconsin.
[28:47] And these these definitions come from the state of Wisconsin, the net resource code and our
[28:54] So that's, that's why I chose these definitions.
[28:57] If you look up the definition for native,
[28:59] non-native species, you'll get a hundred different variations.
[29:04] So I'm using this because it's DNR's definition.
[29:09] So non-native species are those species that are non-indigenous
[29:12] to Wisconsin. They are typically introduced,
[29:14] whether that is intentionally or unintentionally.
[29:17] So intentionally, introduce species would be, you know,
[29:24] or harder cultural plantings and things of that nature, unintentionally introduced
[29:31] invasives would be things like Fregmites, Common Readgrass, which was brought over in
[29:37] Bellus Water in the Great Lakes.
[29:41] So invasive species are, it's best to think of invasive species as a subset of non-native
[29:48] species.
[29:49] So invasive species are non-native species, including all their hybrids and cultivars, that cause harm.
[30:00] Or perceived harm to either the environmental health, human health, or it could be economic harm.
[30:10] So, DNR regulates invasive species, the chapter on our 40 code. So, there's restricted in prohibited
[30:19] species. So, it's best to, I guess, to sum up invasive species are not native, but not all
[30:27] non-native species are invasive.
[30:32] These next few definitions are just just to make you guys familiar with what I'm going to
[30:39] be talking about for their remainder a couple minutes of the presentation here.
[30:43] So richness in this case is simply just the count of the number of species present within
[30:49] a unit and that could be native riches that could be non-native richness.
[30:53] coefficients of conservatism, these are generally values ranging from 0 to 10.
[31:02] And they essentially, they indicate the fidelity of a species to some natural community.
[31:11] It's a some remnant natural community, so invasive, non-native species, they get a zero
[31:17] because they are not part of our native natural communities.
[31:21] native species get a value from 0 to 10 if given a 0 that means it has no
[31:29] fidelity to any natural community. 10 meaning that it's almost always found in
[31:37] a high-quality remnant community that is minimally disturbed.
[31:43] These are generally
[31:44] signed by a panel of experts, and I used DNR's metrics for this investigation.
[31:54] So the main coefficient of conservatism is just simply that.
[31:58] It's the mean of the scores, so you sum up all the coefficients of conservatism for
[32:04] the species divided by the number of species or richness.
[32:09] And Flair's the quality index is simply just the mean C multiplied by the square root of the number of species, so richness again.
[32:19] So generally, like the big takeaway for those last two definitions is that areas that have a mean C higher than four to half, those are pretty nice.
[32:29] Those are nice, you know, generally good quality communities, they have a lot of naturally very potential.
[32:36] If you have an FQI score greater than 45, you're probably in a natural area, or a remnant
[32:42] natural community.
[32:45] If the FQI score is greater than 35, less than 45, but you have a mean C over 3.5,
[32:52] you're still looking pretty good, at least a natural area of marginal.
[32:56] next one. So just wanted to present the results real quickly here. I am on my way to wrapping
[33:06] up my promise. And what I found were at least 20 fairly distinct plant community types.
[33:16] Total of 319 vascular plant species. So again, I did not inventory for non-vascular
[33:25] plant species, you know, mosses, liver warts. That was not part of this, but we did find
[33:32] 216 natives and 103 non-native species. So overall, when I combine all of these assessments into
[33:42] one, so assess the Hilmore property as a whole, the mean C was relatively high, 3.92,
[33:50] which is considerable considering the
[33:54] Flurster Quality Index was a 57.6.
[33:58] So looking pretty decent.
[34:00] And again, if you look at the map,
[34:03] the areas that have an NA were areas that I,
[34:07] I shouldn't have said again,
[34:08] because I didn't explain this yet,
[34:09] but the areas labeled with an NA were not assessed
[34:14] or not available.
[34:16] That's primarily because those were open parkland,
[34:21] We can go to the next one.
[34:28] Don't have to read this.
[34:29] I just wanted to provide these results in the slide,
[34:33] so that it's available to the public.
[34:36] So this is each point community area.
[34:38] It's acreage.
[34:40] And then I have non-native relative cover.
[34:44] And that's relative to the total cover
[34:48] observed within the unit.
[34:49] So,
[34:53] how you assess and how you share percent cover can vary.
[35:00] So, in this case, I chose to share with the commission here the relative cover.
[35:08] So, that is basically the non-native cover summed up all the non-native species divided by the total cover.
[35:17] the sum of all cover for that was observed within the unit.
[35:24] And then I have invasive non-native species cover that's the IN and M.
[35:30] Sorry, that's an old wetland mitigation acronym that I couldn't give up apparently.
[35:37] And then native species richness, so again, just that native species count,
[35:41] There's the quality index for each individual assessment unit and the mean coefficient of conservatism.
[35:49] So hopefully everybody can see that okay, looks like it's coming through okay.
[35:56] The big takeaway, you know, for this figure, is that the non-native relative cover is higher in those redder, orange or darker, deeper colors.
[36:10] So, areas like 17 north of the white river, 14, which is basically a shrub ticket.
[36:21] Those had really high non-native relative cover.
[36:25] And again, note that this is the sum of all non-native species.
[36:30] This is not just invasive species, so this includes invasive species.
[36:35] So next one.
[36:37] So here we have restricted or I should probably change that to invasive.
[36:44] I'm still considering this a draft, so I will adjust.
[36:48] So this is invasive species cover.
[36:51] So again, this is relative invasive species cover.
[36:55] So this is relative to the total cover within each assessment area.
[36:59] So, generally, invasive species cover is a little bit higher towards the north end of the property,
[37:08] but not in every case.
[37:10] So areas like 13, so south of the river were actually like pretty decent quality.
[37:18] Even though they had a relatively high invasive species cover, having a high invasive species cover
[37:24] doesn't necessarily preclude you from having a high-quality natural community next month.
[37:35] So this is native species richness.
[37:37] So again, down at the bottom, the legend there, these are just increments of account
[37:44] of the native species.
[37:46] So the takeaway on these figures is that the redder colors here have a higher count
[37:56] native species relative to other areas so that area north of the, the, I assume the clubhouse
[38:06] parking lot where I have that little N. A, you know, there were a lot of species in there,
[38:12] a lot of native species, so it was a pretty nice area.
[38:18] Next one, so it flourished the quality
[38:21] index. Again, we see kind of similar patterns where, you know, 13, the area south of the river,
[38:31] the Wetland unit there, fairly good quality relative to the rest of the units identified
[38:39] and also that, you know, I would call it a dry music for us. Well, it's more of a, it will get into that.
[38:49] but it's number three, kind of that wooded main central parcel.
[38:54] I had a relatively high native richness.
[38:57] Alright, next one.
[39:00] And mean coefficient of conservatism, you see kind of slightly different patterns here and that's
[39:07] okay. So that's why we use both metrics to help identify higher quality areas.
[39:15] So again, areas like 13 still standing out, but now an area is like three standing out as relatively good quality, but areas like nine are now showing that there's a relatively higher proportion of species within unit nine that have higher coefficients of conservatism compared to other areas.
[39:41] So that's that oak woods that's kind of east of the old clubhouse area, but then you can see the old fairways are very low quality, very species poor in terms of native richness, very high and non native species.
[40:00] So, this is just some general considerations for the park.
[40:06] I tried to sum if you read through the report.
[40:09] I made management recommendations for each individual assessment area.
[40:14] This is kind of just a summary of the higher level points of what those recommendations are getting at.
[40:22] So, maintain and restore hydrology buffer riparian corridors and wetlands.
[40:26] utilize prescribed fire if possible.
[40:30] And if not identify alternative methods that can maintain
[40:34] that target community type.
[40:37] Prevented various suspicious reductions,
[40:40] or limit their spread when possible after introduction,
[40:44] so that's with that early detection
[40:46] rapid response acronym is getting it.
[40:50] Control existing invasive species populations
[40:52] improve resistance to pest and pathogen,
[40:55] via management. So that kind of circles back to several of the preceding points, which you can do
[41:02] through invasive species management, improving the general health of communities through utilizing
[41:10] prescribed fire, buffering habitats. You can also improve our manager Bivry to promote national
[41:19] natural regeneration, and you could do that, not necessarily just through, you know,
[41:25] lethal methods, you can utilize exposures or caging, say specifically for dominant
[41:34] taxid that you would like to, that are desirable, so such as oak regeneration. If you wanted
[41:40] to regenerate oaks, you could fence and or cage or use tree tubes to encourage oak regeneration.
[41:50] And then, of course, utilize plantings where necessary,
[41:56] where you want to enhance biodiversity
[41:58] within a unit, particularly where you've done a lot of management, and you have a lot of bare ground.
[42:05] And then, you can also favor species if this is something that the commission is interested in,
[42:14] favorite species that are projected to do a little bit better under projected climate, changing
[42:21] climate scenarios. So, there's a lot of information out there, which is a whole
[42:26] other topic in presentation, but I included a link there and also a citation for folks
[42:33] that look at that might be useful. And with that, that's all I have. Happy to take questions,
[42:38] comments. I already have a lot of comments, but we're impressed. Thank you. All right, any questions for Zach here?
[42:50] What is a dry music forest? That is a specific community type. So in this case, it's
[42:58] characteristic of Southern Wisconsin forest. The dry music is referring to the moisture
[43:04] conditions of the soil. So they can be rather what early on in the spring, but they dry out quite
[43:10] a bit towards the end of the year. So they're generally found on glacial topography some marines
[43:20] until characterized by usually a component of a heavy component of oak, usually maple, sugar
[43:30] maple, it could be present, but red oak, basswood.
[43:33] Thank you.
[43:36] Very?
[43:38] Okay.
[43:39] Very, very extensive.
[43:42] It's over a little bit of a warmly to the novice here, so.
[43:46] Did, is there something that you reflect on this that hit you as one?
[43:53] Boy, there's something urgent, we really should sort of tackle here, because this
[43:58] area over the back throw and already didn't just explode and take over and if we do something
[44:02] quick, we got to do something. And on the same category, is there something that's low hanging
[44:07] fruit that's almost cost us? Nothing. We can get some big benefit for a very little cost that we
[44:13] should do. Is there any of those two categories? Is there something hitch? Yeah. So I believe the forested unit
[44:23] three, and then the open unit seven. So three was that the dry
[44:29] music forest that had relatively high species diversity. Three was kind of like a
[44:37] dry dry music prairie ish. It resembled a prairie at least. It wasn't necessarily a
[44:46] prairie parade. It's slightly different. But it had a number of prairie species in it
[44:51] that had relatively high coefficients of conservatism.
[44:56] So those two units together,
[45:00] You know, it being dominated by oak has very high plant diversity, likely that's your, that's one of your, you know, biggest banks for your buck if you wanted to think about it that way in terms of biodiversity within that unit.
[45:16] Other areas would be the unit south of the river where there's still oxbow, wetlands, emergent marsh.
[45:24] Some of those areas were rather nice, still had a lot of invasive species cover, particularly
[45:31] granbonoids, like Reed Canary Grass, but recoverable with work.
[45:41] The majority of the forested wetland area adjacent was fairly degraded, even though it had
[45:53] higher mean C when we looked at, and this is,
[45:58] sorry, getting into more detail,
[46:00] we've looked at weighted mean C, so the cover of
[46:04] invasive, it's weighted to indicate, you know,
[46:11] how healthy a system is, not just whether or not
[46:15] species are present, but how much cover do they have,
[46:18] how much area does it cover, that had a really low weighted mean C.
[46:23] because there was so much European black alder within that unit.
[46:27] And if you look back at our previous 1991,
[46:32] 89 survey, there's no European black alder.
[46:36] So that is a relatively recent invasion,
[46:39] and it is dominant within that lower forested area,
[46:45] along terraces along the river.
[46:47] So that area is going to take some work.
[46:52] Are you suggesting that something an area that is going to continue to expand poorly quickly?
[46:58] If we don't do something, is that what you started applying there?
[47:02] Uh, yeah, that area will continue to create to degrade if nothing is done.
[47:06] It is, you know, recoverable, depending on what the goals of the commission are.
[47:14] But it would, it would take some work to get it back there.
[47:24] Good.
[47:26] Exactly.
[47:28] In the wetlands, one of the topics we'll be talking later on is about access to the northern
[47:34] end of the property, clothing going through the wetlands, which would require most likely
[47:39] a bridge and boardwalk.
[47:43] What's you're feeling about building structures or with the invasive, does that need to
[47:49] be taking care of first and do you have an opinion on that or do you see a problem if we
[47:54] would move ahead with construction before and bases
[47:57] or taking care of, or how do you see that?
[48:00] Yeah, in general, it is from a management perspective,
[48:06] certainly more efficient from like a cost perspective
[48:12] to complete at least like a first couple years
[48:16] of management prior to installing infrastructure.
[48:22] Just because especially if you're doing, say, European Black Altair Removal, theoretically dropping trees, you don't want to damage your new infrastructure, but also then, as you remove those non-native trees and shrubs, you start to manage that ground layer.
[48:45] If you then utilize prescribed fire that's going to complicate managing with fire to have a boardwalk,
[48:56] depending on how it's oriented and the path of it, it may be challenging to work with,
[49:04] given the conditions of the topography.
[49:12] Also, just to follow up your comment about climate-resolient plants or trees and a conversation
[49:20] you and I had, it was interesting to learn, for example, species of oak, if we wanted
[49:25] to help bring back oak forest, which was, I think I heard you say that's more native for
[49:32] of the property that, you know, oh, white oak, for example, might have subspecies from
[49:40] more southern climates. You could actually, are you recommending like buying trees from further
[49:47] or south rather than like a nursery in Tennessee or somewhere versus,
[49:59] you know, because they
[50:00] better than our native Oaks, White Oaks, or I don't know, could you just comment on that,
[50:05] how can I understand that better?
[50:07] Yeah, and I didn't mention this at all, but so looking at the original survey, there's
[50:13] notes from like the 1830s, I don't know the exact date, this area was predominantly, and
[50:20] I mentioned it in the report, predominantly Oak, opening, Oak Woodland, and then along
[50:27] the river was all, as far as we could tell, marsh.
[50:32] So marsh can include any number of communities
[50:35] re-recognized today, sedimental, wet prairie, wet
[50:38] mosaic prairie, the list goes on.
[50:42] But yes, historically, hillmore would have been,
[50:46] the hillmore area would have been oak opening, oak
[50:49] woodland, probably some some dry prairie openings
[50:52] in there on some of the dry or gravel images.
[50:58] So, yeah, using that as a target community type would certainly be appropriate,
[51:07] and I will say that OX, you know, looking at the data, the models that USDA and the climate adaptation resource, I can remember the exact name, but I have the book in my bag if anybody wants to look at it.
[51:26] They've modeled this using various climate models to see how OX will fare in, you know, projected, minimal change and projected major change scenarios regarding temperature climate precipitation and OX.
[51:46] As far as we can tell, our projected to do quite well in a change in climate, both under the
[51:53] you know, minimal change and high change scenarios. Specifically, you know, black oak,
[51:59] bur oak, white oak, red oak, they're all projected to do quite well.
[52:06] Do our species here have the genetic capacity to handle those stresses
[52:16] in this location. It's a bit unknown. I can't answer that, but you could certainly improve
[52:26] diversity by planting additional individuals to improve diversity. I believe that is a recommendation
[52:37] in the book. So I wouldn't go as far south as Tennessee, because then you're getting outside
[52:44] of where our climate is projected to get to at the turn of the century, but there are certainly
[52:50] other nurseries in Wisconsin, even that offer that variability.
[52:56] So they have material sourced from, say, further south that comes from a diversionatic stock
[53:05] that could be planted here, that would theoretically prospered and then improve diversity
[53:12] about native population. David, do you have something? Mark, I'm actually. Yeah. Just curious
[53:21] on the river. I noticed that there's no color or anything there. There was that part of
[53:26] the survey to look at the river. I did actually look at the river. I just, so, you know,
[53:33] the community of a lot of aquatic areas, the plant communities of aquatic areas are not extraordinarily
[53:39] diverse. So I think there are like five-tenth species in there. I could always
[53:43] include it in the next version of the report if you want. Yeah. I just curious if that was
[53:50] part of the survey and how the ecological restoration that we're in the process of
[53:56] doing next year, about that might fit into this, but I question for Mike than you. So thank you.
[54:03] Yeah, it's it's about what you would expect a couple of pondweeds some semi-riff island
[54:11] cocktail. Yeah, not much. Thank you. All right, very good anything else. I guess I just
[54:21] I know with all the study that you've done here on the areas that are you know some of the invasive
[54:26] made of plants and you know some of the work that's been done so far about the street department and clearing
[54:31] I mean, I know they're mainly starting down at the south end, which is some of the areas that aren't the best for native species at all.
[54:40] But I guess they do want to make sure that if they are doing any more cut there in clearing areas, that they aren't maybe going into any areas where they would be endangering native plants that we're trying to keep or wouldn't want to keep that they're not clearing out whole areas.
[54:53] But wait a bit, there was a lot of good native plants in that area, and so I think it would be important that they are aware of what information that you have in this study.
[55:03] I mean, if they're just indiscriminately forest remowing, yes.
[55:08] But if they wanted to target specifically in a basis, that would be beneficial.
[55:15] Yeah, in your report, you say that stream area that's in Hillmore's only one, or the park is, it looks like it's been straightened a lot, and we look at the map, it's pretty straight, and you recommend maybe putting in some back in the meandering, yeah, there are some old maps, there are ways to show where the old meandering was.
[55:42] I did look. I looked at the original survey or notes which have like the meanders from the 1830s and it honestly
[55:50] doesn't appear that it varied much from the current channel like there was there was a little bit more
[55:56] wiggle to it but not that much. So I don't know I'd have to look at it a little bit more closely
[56:04] and it's also not like a very refined picture of where the meanders would be because it it gives you a
[56:11] path, but it doesn't give you a width per se of the river. But you can see, if you look
[56:18] on a wide-r, coupled with some early spring imagery, you can see low-ponded areas throughout
[56:29] adjacent to that straightened channel, which do look like old meander scars. I don't know how
[56:37] when they were filled in or if they were filled in or if it was natural. I'm unclear at this point in time.
[56:47] Yeah. And Larry, just the ecological restoration plan includes recommendations on this stream bank and bed enhancements in that section.
[56:58] may not be regarding, you know, restoring the original, which is as
[57:04] as Zach is saying, as kind of hard to determine, but we're going to look at
[57:08] as an option and come up with some recommendations along the stream bank.
[57:13] I sort of like the idea.
[57:15] I mean, maybe the Upland people can work something into the design where you have a
[57:20] little bit of a meandering and it's a place where there's rocks or something.
[57:24] The kids can jump from one area to another, or maybe that can be a
[57:29] There's something we can maybe play on that thought, but I just was wondering, there's a natural spot.
[57:36] Yeah, it would take a little bit closer look.
[57:40] Yeah, it was kind of unclear.
[57:44] I was just curious to what we're talking about, the different species of oak and all of that.
[57:47] I know like a Kishwakito, Vanoy and May, and the jimble construct, they've been advocating, you know, for restoring the oak savannas in this area, they're predominant.
[57:57] had you done any work? I know they I thought they'd work someone's super packed and yeah
[58:01] I didn't know there were certain species. I know when I come to a rotor club we help plant over in a little fishing
[58:07] the kids fishing area. We planted some old trees and stuff and so I'm trying to give
[58:12] their specific types of oaks that they've been using or uh recommending over there.
[58:18] That's that one. Yeah. They were down some of the options for what we might want to look at.
[58:22] I'm not sure what they have been planting specifically. I did a bunch of similar
[58:26] type survey work for them. But I didn't work on their management plan, but yeah, I can't
[58:34] remember what they, I don't think that would be a little bit something that'd be appropriate
[58:37] for this area or that would do well in this area. Yeah, and I could certainly provide you a list,
[58:43] and I'm sure whoever does the restoration plan will provide those. Thank you. Okay,
[58:53] very good. Anything else? Well, we thank you, Mr. Crown. I was a great, great presentation and a lot
[59:00] to think about. So yeah, fantastic. Let me know if you have additional questions. Thank you. Appreciate your time.
[59:10] Okay. Moving on then to item number seven discussion, presentation discussion regarding zone
[59:16] to a potential development time hurts.
[59:21] Mayor, can I just make a couple comments?
[59:24] I accept responsibility for people being confused about 2A back in, you know, 23.
[59:31] It was just zone 2.
[59:33] 2A was added when the North Access point came in to play.
[59:38] It's a joining property to help more that could have an impact on the
[59:44] or property because of this North Access issue.
[59:48] But the reason why Tom is here is just
[59:50] to give information and form the commission
[59:53] that the city has approved entering.
[1:00:00] The discussions with Tom about the potential development on this piece of property, which could impact
[1:00:07] him or in that's why it's for a subject for the commission to hear what Tom is discussing.
[1:00:14] I, Tom and I met on the property, he wanted to go back into it and brave the thickets and we worked
[1:00:23] the way back to the river. So because he has a keen interest in the property. And so as I mentioned it's
[1:00:34] this is really for our information. It would clear this is an issue that's going to be taken
[1:00:39] up with City Council. But if we haven't input their direction or suggestions, we'd like to make
[1:00:44] He'll announce the time to be thinking that.
[1:00:48] Thank you.
[1:00:50] Thank you.
[1:00:52] I'm Tom Hart, one of the founding partners of Simple Cafe in the Simple Food Group.
[1:00:58] We are in the process of trying to buy the four lots that are part of,
[1:01:09] or maybe all of them to a that are up on Sheridan Springs Road.
[1:01:16] And in fact, I believe Monday evening the council will consider the offer that we made.
[1:01:24] I passed out or asked to have passed out what we call a vision.
[1:01:30] And what we do, the way we work our businesses, we pick a point in time out into the future.
[1:01:36] And then write a narrative of what we want that to be, what our preferred future would be.
[1:01:42] And what that does is what I consider the Subaru effect.
[1:01:49] And this is completely made up, but it works.
[1:01:53] Let's say you're looking at buying a new car and you have a friend that you trust,
[1:01:58] who knows a lot about cars.
[1:02:00] And he said, what should I buy?
[1:02:01] New friends says, oh, you should buy a Subaru.
[1:02:04] And you think, wow, I don't know if I've seen Subaru's before and what I guarantee will happen
[1:02:11] is as you're walking along the sidewalk, you'll see every Subaru that was parked.
[1:02:17] And they were always there, it's not that you manifested them.
[1:02:21] You just had it in your mind that you would see them.
[1:02:25] So a vision is the same way.
[1:02:27] So we've written a vision for what we would like to do on those four lots and what that
[1:02:33] is allow us as we're in conversations with you all and with the public and and the
[1:02:39] planning commission and so forth is to see opportunities to make that vision come true.
[1:02:45] There might be something that comes up. So that's why we write them. They have a very specific
[1:02:51] date and time. They help all the folks in our business stay focused on exactly where we're going.
[1:03:00] I thought this would be helpful for you all.
[1:03:05] This is just a draft.
[1:03:06] We have a big group.
[1:03:07] They get together and goes through it and changes and so forth.
[1:03:12] It's a very collaborative effort.
[1:03:15] They haven't done that yet.
[1:03:18] So this is a draft.
[1:03:19] But I think it's close to where we'll end up.
[1:03:23] Our intention if we are able to purchase the property is to put a number of
[1:03:30] businesses and facilities up on top of those lots. And the idea is ultimately that these
[1:03:45] are buildings and structures that are made of materials that we are able to source
[1:03:53] from close by. So a wild example might be the European black
[1:04:00] older, might say in the right term. If that is all to be cut down, that could become
[1:04:08] building material. That could become something that we would use. And so the idea is to
[1:04:15] make it seamless between the natural environment and the built environment. We don't want to
[1:04:21] and target and best buy our fine businesses and they do well, but we don't want to
[1:04:28] be a building that sits on the back with a sea of cars in front. We wanted to look
[1:04:33] like something that fits with the land that deemphasizes the cars and provides a place
[1:04:43] that really is welcoming to people and not necessarily vehicles.
[1:04:51] That's the bigger picture.
[1:04:54] One of the things I think that is,
[1:04:57] issues that all their aims and Fessa Meyer raised
[1:05:02] was about a trailhead.
[1:05:06] And when we first presented this,
[1:05:09] I'd believe it was back in September.
[1:05:10] We had thought it would be a great idea to have a trailhead from this property down to the park.
[1:05:22] And in that, in our view, it would be accessible to all, meaning it was ADA compliant.
[1:05:31] That's a steep slope, so that takes some engineering, that'll take some careful thought.
[1:05:39] The question is, where's the best location for it?
[1:05:44] And I would venture to say that I'm looking at the folks who might have that answer,
[1:05:49] maybe not tonight and probably not tonight, but in two years as you're doing studies
[1:05:54] and figuring out where the wetlands had and where the, you know, if you've had to do burns
[1:06:01] and all those sorts of things, you start to figure out what naturally makes sense.
[1:06:06] What drew us to this property initially was just one interesting idea and that was East
[1:06:14] Few School, fourth and fifth grade, fourth grade is where students start learning Wisconsin
[1:06:22] history and our thought was wouldn't it be interesting if we had a facility up on top
[1:06:29] of that hill and a teacher one day says to our students, hey let's take a field trip.
[1:06:35] They walk out the door, walk through zone one, go through some paths through Hillmore, go up the slope of the hill, stop off at our place, we'll have indigenous plantains, maybe corn hills or rich gardens, we'll have native species, we'll have ancient weeds, all that sort of thing, and we can teach them about what was here of four,
[1:07:04] What foods we use to eat, all those sorts of things, serve them lunch, and then they can walk back.
[1:07:11] And we thought what a great, what a great physical connection that could be, and that spurred the rest of us.
[1:07:20] The business need for us really is basically production.
[1:07:23] We need more space, and that's what drove the idea of expansion.
[1:07:29] So, we're very excited if we have the opportunity to be a neighbor to help more.
[1:07:38] We think it's with what you all are talking about, going to be something that's truly special.
[1:07:44] And we would try to do everything we could within the design and the development to honor
[1:07:51] that.
[1:07:54] It's something that I think the city will be proud of both our development and what's done at Hillmore.
[1:08:05] The trailhead, specifically, there's a term that is called Popo.
[1:08:09] That's an acronym POPOS, privately owned public open space.
[1:08:15] And these are places all over the country that have this, and the idea is simple,
[1:08:27] would once an area is designated as where the path should go and where it should end,
[1:08:34] we would design, build, and maintain the pathway down the structure, whatever it turns out to be.
[1:08:44] And that would be done within a permanent easement that goes with the land not with the buyer.
[1:08:53] So if we disappear one evening whoever ends up with a property has to live by the covenant that is part of the deed that says that that group has to own maintain and take care of that property.
[1:09:11] It also would say that it's open to the public.
[1:09:16] Now we'll have parking, we'll have bathrooms, all that sort of thing up on top already.
[1:09:22] Why not make use of that? Why not make use of funds that we're putting into it?
[1:09:31] And we certainly would have vested interest in keeping open and keeping it usable,
[1:09:38] shoveling it in the winter, making it accessible for all, because that's really important
[1:09:44] to us.
[1:09:46] So I think
[1:09:50] one other thing, water, and I've heard some conversation about the white river
[1:09:59] being, have some meandering parts to it about water quality, about the plants along the river,
[1:10:05] those sorts of things. One of the things that would help is if what the stormwater management
[1:10:14] that is done on the property at the top of the hill those four lots was infiltration rather
[1:10:21] than gray pipe and retention ponds. The infiltration is a much better way of dealing with water.
[1:10:29] it's our friend, let's keep it in the soil there, eventually it probably leaches out whether
[1:10:37] it's a fan of a spring or something of that sort at the bottom, but you're not pouring it
[1:10:45] into the wetland there, you're not pouring it into the light river, it lands on the land and it
[1:10:50] absorbent that land. So that would be the way we would engineer the runoff from the hill.
[1:11:01] So that was another thing that we thought would honor Kilmore and what's going on there
[1:11:08] and at the same time get water back into our aquifers and do the things that we should do.
[1:11:16] So in that, that's, that's what I have for tonight, if there are any questions, I'm glad
[1:11:23] to do my best to answer them.
[1:11:27] And Michael, thank you for inviting me to speak and let you know at least what we're
[1:11:34] thinking.
[1:11:34] Now, we don't own the yet-land, so, but we're trying to buy it.
[1:11:42] Okay, thank you.
[1:11:43] Any questions from the commission? Michael?
[1:11:48] Just Tom, I think again the main thing that we're concerned about is that North Access for the property, even before you came forward.
[1:11:59] There's discussions about maybe that could be a parking area with restaurants and so forth.
[1:12:05] And what I heard you say is that that would be available.
[1:12:08] I mean, if someone living on that side of Townsend Stone Ridge wanted to go to Hillmore and
[1:12:15] they could pull into your parking area and access Hillmore if there was that path trail boardwalk
[1:12:22] through the wetlands.
[1:12:24] We would invite them.
[1:12:27] Absolutely.
[1:12:28] That's the whole idea.
[1:12:29] And it's, to us, that's an opportunity really to be a catalyst for something to happen at that
[1:12:37] in the park anyway. If there's an entrance there, then we'll want to path there too, and how
[1:12:45] does that work? And so, yes, absolutely, that would be open to the public, and the public is
[1:12:51] anybody. You don't have to have any skin color papers and you get to use that, because you're
[1:12:59] by the public.
[1:13:04] Yeah, Tom also, you mentioned about the permanent easement tied to the,
[1:13:10] indeed, effectively, some sort of decondition or restriction, yes, to provide that access.
[1:13:16] And I've heard tonight with public comment and I've heard it before about maybe a better
[1:13:22] option is not to sell a piece of the property and preserve that access that way. What you're
[1:13:29] on this, I'd like to hear how you think about this issue.
[1:13:34] Well, I think if I were sitting up there, which I'm not, I would look at that cost.
[1:13:45] I would look at both capital and maintenance.
[1:13:50] I would look at parking and snowplow and all those sorts of things.
[1:13:56] I look at maintaining public bathrooms and I think if we can get all of those things at no
[1:14:06] cost to the taxpayer, why wouldn't we?
[1:14:10] And in addition, and I'm not the person making decisions on the budget, but there'll
[1:14:19] be, if indeed we are able to negotiate a deal, the money that comes in from the purchase
[1:14:25] But, certainly, you have some of that put toward the improvements that you all are talking
[1:14:30] about at Hillmore.
[1:14:32] And so the more you can get, meaning for lots instead of three, that's more for the capital
[1:14:40] budget.
[1:14:40] It's more for the operating budget, however that gets spent.
[1:14:45] So to me, I've seen these, there's a really good example of a proposed Epolyte College.
[1:14:52] They built a bridge across Night Street to there, there's two.
[1:15:00] It wouldn't sort of wreck center facility, which is on the river. Before they built that bridge, the public, particularly folks who are unable to walk, couldn't get to the river walk.
[1:15:17] And what they did was they built it. They maintained it. It's open to the public. They go across the bridge into the building. There's an elevator there.
[1:15:26] takes them down to the first floor and they go out and then they're right there on the river.
[1:15:32] That's an example of what we're talking about.
[1:15:37] The city doesn't own that.
[1:15:40] The college does and it will always be used for public access to that river walk.
[1:15:47] Irrespective of whether the college is there or not.
[1:15:51] There are lots of those examples all around the country.
[1:15:58] is the late path kind of a similar
[1:16:02] as example of that where the public is able to walk through
[1:16:06] people's property and around the entire
[1:16:10] lake and it doesn't matter who owns the piece of property
[1:16:13] that's just a given with each dwelling.
[1:16:19] That I don't know.
[1:16:21] I mean, I know that that's what I've heard
[1:16:24] it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure that there's an
[1:16:27] He's been in Don every piece of property, I couldn't answer it.
[1:16:31] There's a, I'm fritting the term, can you help me with that term?
[1:16:35] But there, there is some kind of, I'll just say, covenant, if I, as a word, there's some kind of a covenant or agreement on that legpath that it will, it, for all, both time be intended as a, took, be, remain there as a legpath, regardless of the honor.
[1:16:54] So I know that that was written about back a few years ago and I forget the word, but yeah,
[1:17:00] there's a agreement, a covenant, something, and some sort, so. But this is much like what you're
[1:17:06] talking about. And Mayor, I just, on this point of access, um, uh, maybe you could maybe answer
[1:17:14] the, understand this better, but even if the city should not sell a parcel for access,
[1:17:22] that a future council could change that.
[1:17:27] They could decide to sell up 10 years from now or something like that.
[1:17:31] That would be to make it permanent.
[1:17:33] How do you do that?
[1:17:35] So how it works is one council can't bind a future council basically.
[1:17:41] It's how you look at that.
[1:17:44] So, you know, I think Mr. Hertz makes a valid point.
[1:17:51] We are assuming you were to purchase all the property.
[1:17:53] There can be a restriction put in the deed put on that,
[1:17:57] that for all of time that will remain an access point for public use.
[1:18:04] And, you know, sitting in my seat, you know, my concern would be, you know,
[1:18:08] Now you're bringing the city into maintain,
[1:18:12] plowing in bathrooms and everything else
[1:18:15] when you have an entity that's willing to do that,
[1:18:17] and still agree to put a deed and that for all of time
[1:18:23] can be used by the public.
[1:18:26] So that would only make sense,
[1:18:27] I think, from the city standpoint, to do that,
[1:18:31] because you're really gaining quite a lot by that.
[1:18:34] So yeah, I think that, and again, you are correct.
[1:18:39] The council is dealing with us on Monday night.
[1:18:43] We have received an offer and we're going to be discussing that at the city level.
[1:18:48] But again, for tonight's sake, you know, we really want to miss your hearts to be before
[1:18:52] you folks to give you kind of a summary of ideas, what they're thinking, because depending
[1:18:58] on the outcome of Monday and in next few weeks, in a negotiation, whatever it turns out
[1:19:03] be we'll be right back here talking about ideas how this might incorporate into the
[1:19:09] Hillmore property. So. And in addition to I know if you were going to raise your hand,
[1:19:15] but we're concerned that the way it would proceed, let's say, that the Council agrees to the
[1:19:21] purchase or the sale, it would go through planned unit development process. So we would present
[1:19:27] a concept plan to the Plan Commission, then our General Development Plan, and then a precise
[1:19:32] implementation plan in all of that. There are public hearings. There would be, I think,
[1:19:40] lavish discussions with this particular group about making sure that within those plans,
[1:19:46] that easement is there. Make sure that it's in a place that is most appropriate to the
[1:19:55] And that takes time and that involves the public as well.
[1:20:03] So this to me can really be a great collaboration that really comes to something that we are all very proud of and that anybody could use it.
[1:20:15] And Mayor, I would also suggest that the city with if it did go this route and in the
[1:20:23] green it was reached and there were deed restrictions, but there also would be clawback
[1:20:28] provisions, tawn, it's very community-minded in my opinion, and more so than many businesses.
[1:20:37] But he said maybe the future owner could change and they don't have the same philosophy that tawn
[1:20:44] has if they don't fall through or provide that access or
[1:20:48] playback provisions or somehow there's teeth to ensure that
[1:20:53] what time is offering would be still there.
[1:20:58] Right, okay, and so it would be
[1:21:00] deeded, and it would be much like the restrictions
[1:21:03] we currently have on Hillmore, right?
[1:21:05] The deed restrictions on Hillmore are public use
[1:21:08] or 501c3, that's it.
[1:21:11] Okay, and so much like that, we can place
[1:21:13] permanent restriction on that property that does not change with the potential future owner.
[1:21:20] Okay, which I think is the valid concern we all have, which is, you know, 20, 30 years
[1:21:26] down the road.
[1:21:26] We don't want a new owner and then we lose that privilege of what the public knows we come
[1:21:31] used to having a trailhead and a place to, you know, enjoy the park from that perspective.
[1:21:36] So, I have talked with the attorney about this just in brief, and yeah, we are able
[1:21:43] to put that type of restriction on the deed and, and that would stand for time.
[1:21:51] So, law, it further now are we to make a recommendation to do that with that word?
[1:21:57] No.
[1:21:57] So, right tonight's purpose is just to kind of let Mr. Hertz share ideas with you questions you may have,
[1:22:04] but yeah, this is just kind of an introduction tonight.
[1:22:07] So, no recommendations of any nature tonight.
[1:22:10] So, so with that, is there anything else, I would ask two things, one, if we could, well,
[1:22:17] I started to get this presentation put into the, it's all of the public, can access it.
[1:22:23] And, secondly, if you have that presentation that you gave with a council back a few months ago,
[1:22:29] okay.
[1:22:29] I'd like to also re-include that with, into the packet.
[1:22:33] I think you had a pretty in-depth presentation to give it the council.
[1:22:37] I think would be beneficial for the commission to see or read.
[1:22:42] I'll send that to the city administrator.
[1:22:44] Okay, that'd be great. Appreciate it.
[1:22:45] All right, very good, Larry.
[1:22:47] I'm just saying if you just put this in just like it is,
[1:22:51] you're going to write a couple of paragraphs of introduction of what this is,
[1:22:55] your dream concept kind of thing.
[1:22:57] But if someone reading this sort of has that understanding what they're reading,
[1:23:02] otherwise it's going to be confusing.
[1:23:03] We speak a different language and we always think everybody understands it. Thank you. That's a great recommendation.
[1:23:11] Okay, very good. Anything else?
[1:23:14] All right. Thank you, Tom, I appreciate your time.
[1:23:16] Thank you.
[1:23:21] Oh.
[1:23:22] Yeah.
[1:23:22] Say, could you like a USB drive in case you want to take off?
[1:23:27] I mean, you can stay for the rest of the meeting. We're getting close, but in case you want to leave.
[1:23:33] Okay.
[1:23:33] This is children, I know.
[1:23:37] All right, very good.
[1:23:39] Let's move on to item number eight.
[1:23:41] This is a presentation discussion
[1:23:42] and possible recommendation regarding
[1:23:45] Route 50 for anage improvements, Peggy.
[1:23:48] All right.
[1:23:49] So in the packet is the motion that the
[1:23:54] Archcomission is just sent to the council.
[1:23:56] Has it gone to the council?
[1:23:58] Okay.
[1:24:00] Anyway, I'm glad I got other perk people here.
[1:24:02] Anyway, so at our November meeting, it was presented that the city is in the design phase for the upcoming highway 50 improvement project, which includes the addition of sidewalk along the Hillmore property frontage.
[1:24:18] And as Michael frequently states, this is the gateway into the city.
[1:24:23] So can't hear me?
[1:24:24] Okay.
[1:24:24] A little closer under my phone, pull away up close.
[1:24:27] I'll get you turned all the way up here.
[1:24:29] Okay.
[1:24:30] Okay.
[1:24:30] So, anyway, so it was brought to the park board and it was deemed that it is our role to be able to
[1:24:41] review and discuss the proposed sidewalk alignment and its connectivity to the various parks and trails within the city.
[1:24:49] And so through a fairly lengthy discussion, we kind of came up with these five bullet points that we felt needed to be included with the revision of Highway 50.
[1:25:05] And I don't know if you are all north-south challenged, so I will try and dummy this down into ways that I understand it.
[1:25:17] So we wanted to have the sidewalks and on the hill more side to be 8 feet wide, currently
[1:25:24] and this sidewalk would continue from Dunkin' Donuts all the way to...
[1:25:32] That's a ton of real.
[1:25:33] That's a ton of real.
[1:25:34] And right now to give you a perspective, the sidewalk in front of Dunkin' Donuts is 5 feet.
[1:25:41] Now, I'm going to do a little side thing because I have a captive audience, and I'm really into ADA compliance.
[1:25:50] Five feet is the minimum for ADA compliance.
[1:25:54] And if you think about a house, a door has to be 32 inches wide in order to meet ADA compliance or to fit a wheelchair through.
[1:26:03] So, I always use the example that two wheelchairs should be able to pass on a sidewalk, without getting banged into each other.
[1:26:13] So, if you have a five foot wide sidewalk, that will not happen.
[1:26:18] One of those wheelchairs is going to have to go off because you've got 32 plus 32 is 64 and 5 feet equals 60.
[1:26:26] So, just kind of tuck that in the back of your mind when people express that ADA compliance means 5 feet.
[1:26:33] It does, but it doesn't mean that it's really user friendly.
[1:26:39] So, thank you.
[1:26:41] So, we wanted to have eight feet in front of Hillmore and then on the other side of the street,
[1:26:46] we wanted to have it five feet. So, it would continue from
[1:26:52] same Francis down to comfort sweets. We also, next to Dunkin' Donuts, there is a green space grassy
[1:27:01] area, we wanted to make sure that we maintain that whole grassy area all the way from Edwardsville
[1:27:08] of our two shafts a little bit. It gives a much more homey, um, I don't know. It's just pretty
[1:27:17] early. Um, so then along the other side of the street, we wanted this shaft to pursue reaching
[1:27:26] to the town of Lynn because they're the ones who own that parcel of property to see if we
[1:27:31] would be able to extend the sidewalk on that side. We don't know what will happen but we wanted
[1:27:38] to make that recommendation.
[1:27:42] To kind of
[1:27:46] create a cohesive look to the city, we wanted to take
[1:27:52] the lighting that we are currently using along main street in front of library park and runs downtown
[1:28:01] and be able to incorporate that style of lighting again all the way through him or while
[1:28:08] where is it? Being dark skies compliant so that it's not interfering with or it's not providing
[1:28:17] necessary lighting and less necessary. And let's see, the last thing is currently we do not have
[1:28:26] cross sidewalks on both sides. We're not going to have sidewalks on both sides for a while,
[1:28:32] but we need to explore having crosswalks that connect St. Francis or specifically
[1:28:39] Curtis Street and West Street so that you have a way to go from St. Francis to the Hillmore side
[1:28:47] and also from comfort sweets to the hillmore side. And I don't know if any of you
[1:28:53] whoever have ever walked along Highway 15, it is terrifying. And the cars go 40 miles an
[1:29:01] hour, they do not slow down. There's there is not a continuum of sidewalk from downtown
[1:29:09] two Edwards Boulevard. You do literally have to ping pong back and forth. My
[1:29:16] rule of thumb is always face traffic and you can't always face traffic and so you are trusting
[1:29:23] those people driving behind you. It is a horrifying experience and all I can think of is
[1:29:31] when somebody is propelling a wheelchair down that road it must be terrifying. So those are my side
[1:29:37] my little side comments, but we wanted to the park board wanted to present it to the hillmore before
[1:29:43] it was going to go to City Council and let you know that these were recommendations.
[1:29:49] Okay, very good. I'm going to start with these a little bit and help out where I can.
[1:29:55] First of all, the third bullet point requests the City 2%
[1:30:00] Do means to include the town of Lynn segment sidewalk. First of all, that is the town of Lyon. It's not the town of Lynn. Lyon's owns the segment, you know, basically where the hotel ends. Okay. All the way to, you know, where would connect on by the restaurant down there.
[1:30:20] I do have a concern with that one because I think the issue there is you have a, I guess if we talk about the bowling alley, that's a large parking lot that to incorporate a sidewalk there may be very, very difficult.
[1:30:40] and so that sidewalk then would serve basically to the hotel right and I'm not
[1:30:46] discounting and I'm just saying I think that would be a little bit of a challenge
[1:30:49] on the south side so we can have that dialogue. The first bullet point you know I've
[1:30:57] been working with the DOT once about every three weeks I meet with DPW staff and
[1:31:03] myself and all the higher upset that Wisconsin DOT, we talked through all these items, the
[1:31:12] five-foot was created, obviously, because as you go up, as you go up the hill on 50, that's
[1:31:20] a currently, I think it's a five-foot sidewalk. And so the ideas they just wanted to
[1:31:26] keep with the five-foot worth to stay with the consistency of the sidewalk systems on either
[1:31:36] I apologize, I forgot at this moment in time if whether the DOT is paying for that sidewalk,
[1:31:44] which is what I think is happening.
[1:31:47] But I think any improvements beyond that five foot and that falls on the city to pay
[1:31:52] that difference.
[1:31:55] So I'm not disagreeing at all with the wider walks, I think that's a smart option, because
[1:32:02] I've traveled as we all have with Michael to different parts and we've seen the effect between the five and the eight foot pathways and and I don't think any of us here disagree that that
[1:32:15] Eighth would be a substantial improvement. So with that, I think the next step. I haven't figured out the exact order how this would go. I mean, this can come as a recommendation from this committee.
[1:32:29] I think this probably would filter through public works a little bit, maybe council next
[1:32:35] I'm not sure of the route that it would go beyond here, but we can figure that out.
[1:32:42] The green space, matching distance currently from the Dunkin Donuts, I think I addressed
[1:32:46] that.
[1:32:47] The one thing that I guess I am kind of working with the DOT on is the green space or the
[1:32:58] and then we're the sidewalk is they're going to have that same basic terrace with is it goes
[1:33:04] down past home or which I haven't quite figured out because we all know that the terrain there
[1:33:10] is is really a deep swell so I'm not sure how they're going to address that but they keep
[1:33:15] indicating that that terrace will be of width that will be similar to what it is as you come up
[1:33:23] you know about the real there. I'm trying to encourage them to set it back a bit further which I
[1:33:28] they're ultimately going to need to,
[1:33:30] but that's one item that's in discussion with the DOT as well.
[1:33:37] The lighting I totally agree with,
[1:33:40] I think that would give a sense of connectivity,
[1:33:42] if you will, from downtown, the lighting system,
[1:33:46] that would all fall on our dime to do that.
[1:33:49] So that would be a city expenditure
[1:33:50] and those things I can't state how much they are off hand,
[1:33:54] but they're, you know, I wanna say they're about $20,000 per
[1:33:58] light, you know, because it's not just the cost of the light, now it's the cost of the infrastructure,
[1:34:05] getting electricity and so forth and. But that does mean this all can't come as a recommendation
[1:34:10] for the Council on Public Works to consider. Lastly, the crosswalks between Western
[1:34:17] Kurdish Street, I can double check, but I know the DOT has proposed there's 60% design and they
[1:34:26] proposed all the projected crossings. And certainly there would be a crossing at Curtis.
[1:34:32] I just don't recall the drawing with the currently have on the plans. But we can certainly
[1:34:38] look at that rendering and bring that back to this group. So you're aware of one, not necessarily.
[1:34:43] I'm not aware of West, although we currently is at West Street that they currently have a pedestrian
[1:34:50] cross-ring. That's comfort. Oh, that's up there. Okay, yeah, that one they may not, but oh, that's gonna
[1:34:56] have to check. Okay. So again, remember some of this were bound by the DOT. This isn't just something
[1:35:04] the city can decide to do. We'll have to petition the DOT because it affects flow in all those those
[1:35:10] issues. So for tonight's sake, let's have some dialogue. This has been discussed at the park board.
[1:35:19] So I guess that's just take kind of bullet point, but bullet point in your role fast if you have any comments.
[1:35:26] So anybody thoughts on the five versus eight foot width?
[1:35:30] Is it basically going to be $1.6 dollars more to go eight feet versus five feet?
[1:35:40] Or is it really not a big deal?
[1:35:44] I'm going to answer that this way, I know that if we do the improvement now, right, alongside
[1:35:50] the DOT, it's going to be at a better cost point, because they're doing it already, right?
[1:35:55] So we're just going to be paying that difference for a wider walk, but it's going to be
[1:36:01] measurably cheaper than if, obviously, if we redo it down the road, so.
[1:36:06] But I think the DOT would be very commendable to letting us say here, we want to bid this at
[1:36:11] foot sidewalk. And it's starting out five, then it's going to widen to eight, then it's
[1:36:17] soon you, it's going to go back to five.
[1:36:21] Yeah. Yeah. I get the idea of having it
[1:36:24] wider, that's a good thing, but it seems a
[1:36:29] little, it's a, to me, it's a, a money thing now.
[1:36:34] Well, it's not sure that you're really gaining that much here. Well, all this is a money thing.
[1:36:39] We're, I mean, we're going to have to see because the city does capital boring every three
[1:36:43] years and we're coming up on a season to do that so I mean we can certainly consider all
[1:36:47] this but yeah it's going to be a cost factor too yeah as far as the eight foot I think
[1:36:57] we also need to take into consideration the slope of that part of the road how quickly it
[1:37:04] goes up and down a hill and if you have only five feet wide and you cannot pass another person
[1:37:11] easily and you're on a slope that's going to be even more difficult. That's why eight feet would
[1:37:18] be advantageous going in front of film more. I know that moms with strollers and holding
[1:37:28] kids hands, especially on a busy street, you want to be side-by-side walking down or walking
[1:37:34] up that hill. I think the eight foot is advantageous. I mean, given the lengths of that stretch,
[1:37:45] you know, I mean you're probably in the neighborhood of 100,000 minimally additional to
[1:37:50] widen that walk from the five foot, guessing. But it's that today's discount of doing it with
[1:37:56] versus the other person who would be considering doing it at the same time.
[1:38:01] And that's just a guess, but yeah.
[1:38:04] I think it's just smarter to do more of the front if we can.
[1:38:09] Especially if this is the Route 50 corridor where everybody's going to come and see it.
[1:38:14] It's like the entrance to the Taj Mall, like Geneva.
[1:38:19] I think it makes sense to really make it.
[1:38:21] do as much as you can with the DOT, and make it look good, so eight feet for sure, would be, that would be my suggestion.
[1:38:34] Okay, and I think this future goes on.
[1:38:36] I mean, eight foot could be re-introduced to the current five foot walks.
[1:38:43] All right. So, yeah, Michael.
[1:38:46] Michael? Yeah, just the importance of the green space between the road and the sidewalk. Cindy mentioned about the
[1:38:53] slope factor if you're stepping off the sidewalk but it also impacts the the possibility of lighting.
[1:38:59] So we need to make sure that green space is wide enough and level enough
[1:39:03] that you could put the light there if you extended along the front to help more to tie in with the downtown area.
[1:39:09] So I don't know whether that with minimum if it's level with five feet, you know if it's sloped maybe it
[1:39:16] to be greater, but that would have to be determined. But it's very important to the visual
[1:39:23] impact that Mark does talking about.
[1:39:28] Okay. And I'll speak with administrator tomorrow because there might be a different
[1:39:33] road map that I'm suggesting tonight might just be us going to write to the DOT and say,
[1:39:38] hey, this is coming up from committee level, you know, whatever possibilities. So, but for tonight's
[1:39:46] we want your ideas. All right, south side, the Dunkin Donut or Dunkin Donuts we talked about
[1:39:55] thoughts there, otherwise the south side of the street
[1:40:04] begging. All the way down, you know,
[1:40:06] so when we talk about not just the bowling alley, I understand the bowling alley, you come down
[1:40:11] and you've got the sidewalk and it goes through the parking lot and then you have another sidewalk
[1:40:15] that goes to comfort sweets. And then from that point on, there is nothing until you hit
[1:40:23] the Sherman Williams base. And that's how you can actually currently access Walmart because
[1:40:32] on the other side of Dunkin Donuts. It stops there and can't, there is no sidewalk currently in front
[1:40:39] of noodles in Kudoba.
[1:40:42] And so somehow we have to figure out
[1:40:44] how we're going to have a continuum
[1:40:48] on at least one side and where there isn't one side
[1:40:52] and there has to be some type of crosswalks
[1:40:54] so people can get where they need to go.
[1:40:57] The particular with Haven will be in on that side of things.
[1:41:01] Because you're not accomplishing anything
[1:41:03] if you create that system but then you get to Kudoba
[1:41:05] and now they go back out to the road to Kudoba.
[1:41:08] And again, I don't know. I'll double check. I don't know if the DOT hit identified putting a walk there.
[1:41:14] That's a really good point. I forgot. There's not a walk. Connecting that point. So.
[1:41:21] Okay. Yeah.
[1:41:23] The south side is going to be difficult, not only because of the properties and clients, but also the terrain.
[1:41:33] As I was driving down, looking at it, there are quite a few very steep hills, like within three to five feet of the road currently.
[1:41:44] So they would have to be terrorists or leveled or something to be able to get through there.
[1:41:50] So that's going to take a lot of work, but if it can't be done for some reason, I would prefer it be done, but if it can't be done,
[1:41:59] then those crosswalks are huge. They've got to be there because they didn't lower the speed limit.
[1:42:08] It's 40 miles an hour in front of Fillmore and if people have to cross to get from one place to the next,
[1:42:17] we need to have very clear crosswalks and multiple ones to be able to access.
[1:42:24] And I think that has to be really looked into.
[1:42:29] Are they going to be elevated crosswalks?
[1:42:31] So they're just going to be the normal one, just normal.
[1:42:35] Mark, you cross 50 there, don't you?
[1:42:37] Yeah, we play Frogger going across over by the comfort ends over there,
[1:42:42] because we kind of the way we get there,
[1:42:44] we funnel through the back and then come down through that,
[1:42:46] whatever that road is that the comfort suites around.
[1:42:50] It's hard when they're coming down around 50.
[1:42:52] You can't almost see the cars coming.
[1:42:55] They haven't done it.
[1:42:55] They haven't done it.
[1:42:57] And they're going fast.
[1:42:59] Well, the one thing that I've petitioned very hard with the deal,
[1:43:02] team these meetings has been the rapid crossing that we've just
[1:43:06] put in by the bottle shop.
[1:43:08] I requested that every single crosswalk from one end of the
[1:43:13] reconstruction to the other end, get those rapid flashers.
[1:43:18] Because people get used to seeing them every
[1:43:22] intersection. So we're really petitioning hard to get those everywhere. And, you know, we have
[1:43:27] an issue in interest to be able to go all the way to the other side. Tom, where Sky Lane is,
[1:43:33] you know, how you come in from the from the west down the hill, come up over the hill,
[1:43:38] your, you know, most traffic that I heard is speed. Well, they have a crosswalk, pedestrian crosswalk
[1:43:44] go to right-ed at Sky Lane and I told the high engineers go out there and spend a half hour
[1:43:52] and tell me that you're going to figure that one out. And so they're talking, you know,
[1:43:57] they're going to have to probably put trombone arms out over the over highway 50 so that people
[1:44:02] will see the flashing occur, you know, to slow down. But again, this is a DOT project and they're
[1:44:08] the experts and and and you know we just we live here I think we have a fantastic understanding
[1:44:15] of what works and what doesn't but we're petitioning hard with the deal to get a lot of the stuff.
[1:44:21] As far as the last one the crosswalk and Western Curtis I'll just come back to you guys with that one
[1:44:26] because again that's a deal of tea thing. Yeah. Just the comments on the overall city strategic plan
[1:44:34] talking about quality of life issues, walkability,
[1:44:38] bikeability, there are a lot of residents like Mark
[1:44:42] that live on the south side of Hillmore
[1:44:45] and we don't really want to encourage that the only way to get there safely
[1:44:49] is to use your car.
[1:44:51] You know, if they're going to go for a hike, why not walk from their house
[1:44:54] to get to the property and be able to cross 50 safety right now.
[1:44:57] It's a barrier. It's not safe.
[1:44:58] this this
[1:45:00] Fits in, to me, a bigger vision for the city, not just even with Helmore.
[1:45:06] Okay.
[1:45:09] All right. So,
[1:45:12] we have the sign here for recommendation. These all came as a recommendation from the park board.
[1:45:20] You guys can simply just to read all this and we'll look in the all of it or if you want to item out stuff.
[1:45:31] So, do you want to motion?
[1:45:36] Let's do it this way.
[1:45:37] Why don't we just get the ideas on the table and we'll pursue it?
[1:45:41] I don't think we need a full motion on it.
[1:45:44] So if we're looking to pursue the eight foot walks,
[1:45:48] I mean, is there anyone that would disagree with that?
[1:45:53] All right, so we'll look into that.
[1:45:58] I think the Duncan Donuts we talked about.
[1:46:00] There's no, I shouldn't really need it there. It is what it is.
[1:46:05] Again, I agree. I think the soil size is going to be very difficult.
[1:46:09] I think funding is going to come into play.
[1:46:12] And I'd rather funding it on the north side contiguous than to, you know,
[1:46:16] have any issues with a personal, you know, cross the system up north.
[1:46:21] So we can look, I think what I would suggest on that.
[1:46:24] I'll talk to the DOT about it and staff about it,
[1:46:28] And I think that's going to be a really, really tough sell to get that sell side done.
[1:46:34] But we can sort of look into it.
[1:46:37] And will that come back then, both to this committee and to the park?
[1:46:41] Yep.
[1:46:42] Yep.
[1:46:42] We'll bring it back.
[1:46:44] So in the minutes, I'll put that the commission concurred with the park commission's recommendations
[1:46:50] and that the mayor would advance through the city and with Wisconsin government.
[1:46:57] because some stuff's DOT which we're bound and then some stuff is city but then
[1:47:02] it's fun to get so. So yeah let's let's I'll talk to the administrator and we'll
[1:47:08] create a pathway for all of this bring it back.
[1:47:13] Okay Dan just let's say thank you Peggy
[1:47:18] and you have a very nice job with your captive audience and your descriptions. Okay
[1:47:24] Anything else on this?
[1:47:28] All right.
[1:47:31] Next meeting.
[1:47:34] Are we on for January 22nd?
[1:47:37] Oh, four.
[1:47:38] Yeah.
[1:47:39] Our next meeting is two weeks from now.
[1:47:42] Upland design will be presenting
[1:47:44] preliminary work on the drafts.
[1:47:47] This would be an opportunity to provide additional input
[1:47:51] before the three final draft or preliminary five draft versions are presented for a public review.
[1:47:58] So, it's very important meeting on January 20th.
[1:48:01] So what time is it?
[1:48:02] It's Thursday six o'clock, okay. All right. All right, very good.
[1:48:08] Item nine adjournment, is there a motion?
[1:48:10] You say, okay, you said those, the 26th.
[1:48:14] 22nd. 22. Yep. I make a motion. Okay.
[1:48:17] We have motion by Lowell, the journey is a second, second, second by Clark, all in favor
[1:48:22] eye.
[1:48:23] I close.
[1:48:23] We're journey, thank you for your time folks.
[1:48:33] I'm going to tell you today.