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Let me call tonight's town council work session to order. The first item for discussion tonight is the fiscal year 2022 by to work session. Public works and CIP. Mara, thank you, say during talking, a little minutes tonight.

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And they have it asked for additional five minutes.

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Well, 10 together.

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Good

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evening Madam Mayor members of Council tonight as the Mayor mentioned we're here for our next budget work session tonight's topics are public works and then this six year capital improvements program so with that I'm actually going to turn it over to Renee for the public work section.

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It

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would even be not a mayor, members of Council, Renee LaFalle, Public Works Director.

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It's strange to stand up here and say only public works since since we did the split.

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So for our department, our annual budget for 2027, 23.7 million, again, the high percentage

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of that personnel, but then another big one is that trash and recycling contract last year.

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It was 20% this year, it is at 21%.

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And that larger increase for the trash

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and recycling contract was driven by the $20 per ton increase

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of TIPC for the Lab County landfill this fiscal year.

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You look at the 11 divisions that are in public works.

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This is a quick breakdown of what each division has

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within their budgets.

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The regional transportation, I don't really count

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as a division within public works is that is

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level county transit that is the safety ride is the

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dollars for that on that line item and it is in our

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budget under transportation.

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Our recent budget highlights in the operating and

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personnel from in 2025 you approved a construction

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manager for capital projects and a full time storm

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water GIS coordinator.

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We have hired that GIS coordinator and did so in

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fiscal 25, fiscal 26, you authorized the transportation engineer and the pavement and bridge manager position.

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We have been successful in hiring the transportation position.

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We did hire a transportation planner and he started an August of this year.

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We are still trying to find our pavement and bridge manager.

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We did a series of interviews and we're not able to make an offer based on that first recruitment

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that will be going back out and advertised in the next couple of weeks.

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We did our reorganization, effective July 1st,

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and separated capital projects out of public works,

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so I get to focus on one department now.

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We do have our new deputy director of operations hired.

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He started today as name as Roscoe Coles,

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and I will try and get him to a council meeting soon,

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to introduce him to you.

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Trash recycling contractual increases.

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We talked about that. The big hit this year was that $20 a ton increase for TIP fees at the

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Loudoun County landfill. They have told me verbally that we do not have an increase expected

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for fiscal 28. They're plan that they are putting forward to the Finance Committee and the Board

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of Supervisors shows TIP fees staying flat for this year. But as we know that could change after

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gets through the Finance Committee. And we are continuing to have investments in stormwater

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the payment management program. Under the capital asset replacement, thank you for keeping

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at around a million, around a million dollars. That has helped us with keeping up with the

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equal replacement facility improvements. And staff is working with both budget and procurement

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to help streamline how those monies get appropriated to us so that we can be more timely in getting

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our orders placed, since we are one of the smaller jurisdictions, sometimes we are at 12 to 18

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months from order to receipt of vehicles because we're at the end of the line. So we're working

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with them to try and speed some of that up as best we can. As far as the capital projects that

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touch public works, the town hall projects, that's a compilation of the fire system upgrade,

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which is in design now, the parking garage structural repairs which is just about complete

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we're looking at handrail and railings now and also the roof for town hall which is

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in the out years.

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You're familiar with milling and pick...

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Moving with those significant investment we've made there, townwide bridge maintenance, our signal replacements. We have two of those signal projects that will be going to construction soon.

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And then with stormwater we're in the process of doing a number of design projects there.

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You look at one metric where our public works department is FTE per lane mile.

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And if you look at the larger jurisdiction,

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monassus were very similar in lane miles

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and were also similar in staff per lane mile.

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And this is just one metric and doesn't tell the complete story for us,

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but it is a good indicator of where we are in relation

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to other public works departments that are similar in size.

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So as the seasons change,

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so does the workload and work areas of focus for the department.

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One of the interesting things is some of the overlaps that we have, where if we do crack ceiling in house, for example, that has an overlap with leaf collection and October and December, and with potential winter weather response in the end of that winter one in March, because that's the best time of your temperature wise to do the crack ceiling.

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So, some of those overlaps do create some pressures on where we focus resources within the department.

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If you look at our department based on percent of time that we spend in different areas,

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so this is based on the available number of work hours for all of the staff within the street division.

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And if you take just leaf collection, asphalt and roads, storm water and mowing that 60% of the available

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work hours for our front line staff, if you had rough collection into that were at 71% of our available hours just in those five areas of work.

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A topic near and dear to our heart, storm water, we are going to be going into the final year of our five year

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We do have a number of compliance issues and responsibilities that we need to make sure

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that we take care of during fiscal 28 completing the balance of inspections on public and private

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underground and above ground that we are responsible to get eyes on once every five years.

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So we have a number of those that we have to be ready to do.

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The VES inspection, the EES MP inspection responsibilities.

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That is every active construction site has to be inspected every other week,

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or within 24 to 48 hours after a quarter inch of rain.

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So at times, this is a very difficult inspection responsibility to meet with the staffing level.

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So we will have a task order going to the town manager shortly to have some assistance from an outside company so that we stay in compliance with that.

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The low compliance rate with private stormwater management facility owners, we only had 17% of the 94 or so private entities submit a complete inspection report to the town this year.

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So staff is working with further outreach to them and they're also working beginning to work with the town attorney's office on what our next steps are.

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That we just have our increased number of assets and our major equipment replacements that will become enough for storm water.

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Our pavement management side, we have concentrated again on the neighborhood centric.

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We've got the mill in overlay and all the concrete work done in green way and our in process in

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Ashton in over medows, they will be paving Wilson and Persian tomorrow and so far we have spent

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a million fifty one thousand dollars not counting the asphalt that will go down tomorrow and Wednesday in that

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continuing to do concrete work, we have advertised and awarded a micro-surfacing contract and

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that work will be done this spring and we also have a rejuvenation contract that we are

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working with that vendor for that work to be done in the spring as well. And where it says

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the operating money is responding to those first and then going to the capital monies which gets

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into the debt service and bonding.

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So we're spending the operational side of that work first.

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Under accomplishments, we are continuing to work

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on improving our on-time service delivery.

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We have done some streamlining work of our

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lucid work order system.

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Leaf collection last year, we had a significant decrease

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in the number of complaints.

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Then we typically get in leaf collection.

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They slightly changed how they did the...

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Election by Zones. And trash collection, we're still working with Patriot. They had a 45 day period where

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they, their computer systems completely went down. They were a victim of a ransomware attack. And they're still trying to recover from all of that.

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So a lot of the complaints that you've heard in the last two to three months had a lot to do with that, but we still have more to do on customer service with them.

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And our fleet availability through our fleet services group, we are running roughly 94-90-06% available on our fleet.

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So if the neighborhood centric paving were continuing and we did start the facility condition assessment, they have completed their inspection and assessment of all of the buildings we're waiting on the model work now.

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And to pay to challenges, are the same as last year recruitment and retention, our aging infrastructure, and our regulatory requirements going into our last year of the permit, we're not sure what our next five year permit cycle will require of the town.

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And with that, I'm available for questions.

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So I assume those responsible for maintenance of private stormwater management are aware of that,

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but the compliance rate is only 17 percent.

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Of those that more than that submitted, they didn't submit complete inspection reports or maintenance reports.

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that was only 17% that had complete records.

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So we give them another notice and another 30 days

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to get their compliance and their plan in.

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That letter has been sent and we're just starting

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to get a trickle of responses for that.

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So is this a situation that they're just becoming aware of

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the last year or two years that they've been,

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it's been a problem for a number of years.

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So now it goes to how hard can we drop the hammer for lack of a better way to put it.

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We have language in the town code that allows for fines and allows for penalties.

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So now we need to work with the town attorney's office and figure out where we are in that process.

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And when do we start implementing those fees and fines?

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out of curiosity from the state's point of view, what is our position with the state with

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of its non-compliance?

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As long as we are continuing to work with them to get them in compliance, we're good.

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They have to show that we have to reach out to them, that we're working through the process

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and then if it gets to a final position, that we are willing to then send that letter

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for fines. We've been able to get compliance without having to go the fine route before

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this year, but we haven't been this low in level of compliance as long as I can remember.

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Can you give me an idea of what kind of percentage last year we were around 53% at this

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this time of the year, but we were able to get the balance of them within compliance by sending

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another letter. This year, we're hoping we'll be able to do the same thing without having to

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let the fees and fines. Is this an annual? It is an annual certification request requirement,

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yes. And in the end, it's all on the town. It's the town's responsibility to make it ultimately, yes.

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It is not going to step in and say, okay. It's on us. Okay. Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Do you anticipate using all of the 3.8 million for paving in the script?

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Okay.

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All right.

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It's all right.

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I have a question for you.

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The county charges us.

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All right.

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Tipping fees to use the landfill.

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They charge all commercial haulers.

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And anyone actually that uses the landfill.

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So our commercial hauler was paying $55 a ton.

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They increased that by $20 a ton, so we're at $75.

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We are love county's tip fee is still significantly lower

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than Fairfax county.

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Fairfax county is over $100 a ton.

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They've always charged us.

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They've always charged us.

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We have been talking to them about maybe given us a discount.

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We have not, I'm not aware of any jurisdictions that has been able to do that with...

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We could be the first.

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We have not. They're solid waste report, and they're operational pro-rata shows that, so we could...

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We could potentially ask, but I don't think it'll go anywhere.

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There's no reason not to try. All right, anyone else? Okay, thank you very much.

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Appreciate the information.

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Good to give you back the whole 10 minutes. You're lucky.

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Great. Good evening, Council. Not a mayor member of the Council on Doug Wagner.

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I'm the deputy director of Capitol Public Works.

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Capitol Project, sorry, I still get used to it.

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Here this evening to talk to you about the 208, 6-year capital improvement program.

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As councils of where every year we update the capital improvements plan to 6-year program,

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we are currently in the process of reviewing and preparing the 208-2033CIP.

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When adding projects into CIP, new projects can be requested by all departments, they can

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to be requested to be added by Council and by the Town Manager's Department, projects.

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Once projects are decided to potentially be moved into the CIP, they're prioritized

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with based on cost and potential benefit by the Town Manager and the Office of Finance.

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There is no study money in operating budget.

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I'll explain that a little bit later.

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I'll explain that more a little bit later.

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If projects are removed forward, projects can

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not be programmed in the CIP, until there is funding

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and staffing capacity available.

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In 2028 to 233, we're anticipating limited funding.

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So to date, we had seven projects requested to be added,

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only four are potentially being added.

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Those are two airport projects, which have DOAV funding.

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And then T-words projects which have VDOT smart scale funding.

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I'll also mention that there are seven projects coming out of the CIP.

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Mostly because they're completed.

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B projects like the Lawson Road, the Destrian Crossing.

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Pickleball courts will be done.

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Fencing for the airport also completes.

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So the seven projects will come out of the CIP.

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Many projects in 2027 were deferred to later years.

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It was where the town shop expansion, the Balsh library rehab, tennis courts, and fence replacement at Idley, locker room and pool renovations also at Idley,

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Battlefield Parkway Safety Improvements, the Conductance Circle, Turnling, and Trail, Fort Evans Road, and Plaza Street, drainage channel, and the airport parking lot.

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I mentioned I would talk about future projects a little bit later.

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There are future projects in all of our CIPs.

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They are potential future projects which have no study, no study has been done on them,

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so they don't have a real scope, they don't have a budget and we move to priority future

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projects which have had a minimal study done.

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They do have a scope associated with them in potential costs and with study money and potential

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funding that the goal would be that projects from the priority list removed into the CIP

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as funding becomes available.

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Again, the outlook for the 2020 ACIP, very limited project increases any increases.

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We have to offset by shifting other capital projects, schedules and scopes, fewer new

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projects, if any, without outside funding, as I mentioned before, projects that are potentially

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and moving forward, I'll have outside funding.

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We could also move projects forward if cash funded

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with prior data center computer equipment task.

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Equipment tax revenue is used,

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or potential utility, stormwater utility is implemented,

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which would take pressure off of the general fund

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and then external funding sources identified

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such as V.F.A.A.D.O.A.V.

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In the fiscal year 28 plan, we have approximately 62 million

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available for multiple government projects.

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These are, we're starting design of the North Street

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Improvements, North Street Improvements is all funded by NVTA

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30%.

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Construction funding for the Traffic Signal at Sickland

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and Gateway, which has VDOT revenue sharing funding,

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and then the Air Traffic Control Tower and Parallel Taxi

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Way, which is almost entirely funded by FAA and DOAV.

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For utilities, there's 18 million for utilities projects,

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which includes automated meter reading technology and hog back tank recoding.

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This year, a capital project staff, each staff member has approximately seven projects.

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A normal workload for where we would anticipate would be three or five.

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So we are definitely busy, you can tell based on 25, we're getting a little bit busier.

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We have used staff augmentation this past year to help move projects forward.

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and with

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That all answer any questions.

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Before we begin the questions, I just got a text that sounds the webcast doesn't have any sound.

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Anybody having questions?

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I'll let Mr. Cummings first.

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It's some out of mayor.

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We did address the sound issue on the webcast.

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We did.

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Okay, thank you.

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Thank you, Madam Mayor.

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When we talk about the future CIP, would you say the pressure points are funding

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related or staff capacity related, which is greater right now a little bit of both with staff

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augmentation we've been able to move projects forward which is quite a bit but that's

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more expensive.

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If we were to take data center revenue and put it into the CIP, it would help but it wouldn't

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help because we're not hiring staff with that those funds.

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It would provide more money for staff augmentation.

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we do have all of our all-call engineers have staff augmentation built into their contract,

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so it could help to move projects forward. But yes, ultimately hiring or staff would be a big benefit.

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And then if we were you know, I know you mentioned there's no money currently in the CIP for studies,

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and so to in order to get on the CIP you have to have that study.

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So, you know, the mayor and I met with a, with a, with a property owner talking about trying to build another parking garage in the downtown area.

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And if, and obviously that needs to come, if that project would ever come to fruition, there's a lot of steps to get there.

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But, but we would still need to have money in the CIP.

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So, is the process, if we were to try to begin that since it's six year plus process,

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for the council to fund the study of that first, and then, and then it would have to get into the CIP, or could you do both?

258
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If we have the money, could you run both simultaneously?

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Right now, we're in the process of updating the CIP, we could absolutely add it to the CIP, but the first step would be doing a study to get a budget and a scope.

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So, would you say if we, if the will of the council was to move forward on something like that,

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we would, would we be able to fund the study and put it in the year six of the CIP

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or would we need to have the study done first?

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Without a budget, it'd be hard to add it in the CIP.

264
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We could, we could take a shot at it, but we really need to have the study done before.

265
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I appreciate that it's kind of like my son's Christmas list, you know.

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Thank you.

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Thanks in the realm of unintended consequences now that we have seen the reality of the

268
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Lawson Road Project in the last storm.

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Is that kind of maintenance built in to our CIP or some other budget that we know now that we're going to have to deal with.

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the maintenance for it, we are in the process of the stabilization will be done and complete

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so that the site will be stabilized before the contractor leaves.

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The upgraded maintenance for removing debris was in our CIP for future maintenance dollars.

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We were anticipating that we would probably, we would need to be doing that kind of maintenance

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long term.

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Some maintenance.

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I don't know that we were anticipating we were going to have that much to do.

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All right.

278
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Thank you.

279
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Thank you.

280
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And that's it.

281
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Thank you.

282
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And you made it in five minutes.

283
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Tried.

284
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All right.

285
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Next we have the zoning ordinance rewrite.

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Further discussion on the dive list.

287
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I know it's related to article three.

288
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All right.

289
00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:18,340
good evening Madam Mayor and members of Council.

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Tonight we continue our discussion on the zoning ordinance rewrite deep dive list.

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And recall that this is our second work session on the deep dive list.

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Last time on October 5th we talked primarily about those items Council had identified related

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to Article 2, zoning districts and dimensional standards and so tonight's discussion focuses

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on Article 3, which is uses, but again, remember that these are just the items that Council

295
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has identified for specific discussion, it's not the entirety of Article 3 tonight.

296
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So, previously...

297
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We heard from Mayor Burke, council member Cummings, Will, and Vice Mayor Seminojansson that they'd like to take a look at the permissibility of uses.

298
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And when I say that, what I'm talking about is really table 9-2 in your drafts, only when it's rewrite, which indicates whether or not uses require a administrative review, a minor special exception review or special exception review.

299
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There was also direction to revisit short-term residential rentals, and that was from Council

300
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Member Steinberg and Council Member Kukowski.

301
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So we'll talk a little bit about those use-specific standards for short-term residential rentals.

302
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And then the last general topic under Article 3 uses was data center use standards.

303
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And that was also from Council Member Kukowski and Council Member Steinberg.

304
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So, jumping into it, just a quick refresher on what we mean by the use table and permissibility

305
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:57,660
of uses.

306
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Essentially, this is table 9-2 in the zoning organizations, one excerpt to show you what

307
00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:09,880
it looks like, but in this table you'll see their land uses are listed in rows and organized

308
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by use category and then the districts are across the top and then each column coming down

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at the intersection of a row and a column will see a letter there that indicates the permissibility

310
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of the use. Also, off to the right, your rightmost column is a link to use specific standards

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as needed or related to a particular use. And what are those letters mean? As a refresher,

312
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yet again, here's your key. So P means permitted use. That means the use is allowed without

313
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additional review provided it complies with all the relevant zoning regulations of course.

314
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L stands for limited use. This is a use that's allowed with specific conditions. So that

315
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indicates there is use specific standards that are codified that must be met and if they are met,

316
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the zoning administrator can't approve it. However, if the zoning administrator cannot approve it,

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then there is a process to proceed as a minor special exception before the council. This is a new

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that we've added in the rewrite that will hopefully help streamline the process.

319
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Minor special exception that's indicated with an M, that's reviewed and approved by Council only,

320
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so no planning commission recommendation on those uses.

321
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Obviously they need to adhere to the base zoning standards,

322
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but the Council has the ability to impose additional conditions as needed as part of the review,

323
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and there is a public hearing required.

324
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S stands for the full special exception, so like the minor special exception, public hearing

325
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required, may impose conditions, but these uses go before the Planning Commission for

326
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Review and Recommendation before they come to Council for Decision, and that if you see two

327
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dashes in that table, that means prohibited use, not allowed in this district.

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So a task to your packet tonight is a track changes version of the use table, and you'll

329
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see that we've marked it up so you can see in red where we might have added or changed text

330
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proposed for table 9-2.

331
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I just wanted to talk a little bit about the y behind some of these proposed changes.

332
00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:23,320
Number one is implementing that town plan, right?

333
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That's kind of the main objective of our zoning ordinance rewrite.

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So for example, your new town plan has policies supporting more housing options and that's

335
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implemented by allowing more housing types in certain zoning districts, so you're increasing

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potential for additional housing options, corresponds directly to the policy that's adopted.

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Another example is your town plan policy support tourism in the downtown, and so that can

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be implemented here by permitting hotel and bed and breakfast in other lodging uses in the downtown

339
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as permitted or limited uses, reviewed administratively rather than a special exception.

340
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,540
So that's our examples of how the zoning is starting to carry forward some of those policy statements.

341
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:13,020
And another tenant of the rewrite was to look at streamlining process.

342
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This was one of the items that you all put in your council endorse the project plan when we started a few years back.

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And an example of how we streamline process in the use table is if there's a particular use that was always getting approved.

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be a special exception, maybe with the same conditions of approval.

345
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We went back and looked at the record, and we went ahead and just codified those conditions

346
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and made it a limited use.

347
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So a perfect example is like a doggy daycare.

348
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There was quite a few of those rolling through the council.

349
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Wasn't much discussion.

350
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It was approved with the same conditions.

351
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So we went ahead and made it a limited use subject to codified standards rather than going

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through that additional process.

353
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:59,920
Okay, so, again, that markup version of section 9-2, the use tables is included.

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As the attachment to, and for these slides, what I've done is I've grabbed excerpts from those sections

355
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that the council wanted to talk about, and then we can always, matter, may or go to an open discussion

356
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as well once we get through these hot topics.

357
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All right. So, the first topic, council member Cummings would like to talk about was Flex and Warehouse.

358
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And so a little bit more on what you see on the screen.

359
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So the industrial use category is what we're talking about.

360
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And then within the industrial use category,

361
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you see a couple of different rows here,

362
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contractor, data center, flex,

363
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many warehouse facility, research and development

364
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and then all industrial uses other than listed.

365
00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:51,600
And remember that we went with a use category approach.

366
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This was deliberate.

367
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This is a paradigm shift.

368
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This is to create more flexibility and use regulation.

369
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Instead of a long list of every single potential land use term listed out,

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if it's caught under the all industrial uses,

371
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:09,100
characteristics of that use category,

372
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then you would just go with that last row,

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the catch all there, all industrial uses other than listed.

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But in some instances, we've called out specific uses,

375
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either because we wanted to make them more or less permissible

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or change the permissibility and so we pulled those out of the general industrial category

377
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for example, Flex shown here. So I can read the characteristics of the industrial use

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00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:40,200
category if we need to revisit that but specifically Council Member Cummings wanted to look

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at Flex and Warehouse. So what the draft proposes is adding Flex use as a special exception

380
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and service commercial, and that is your regional serving commercial zoning districts, so that's a new addition, and then keeping it as a limited use in the industrial research park and the brand new innovation center zoning district. And there are some use standards that come with that as well.

381
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for many warehouse facility that proposal is to eliminate those from a service commercial

382
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because those are really more regional serving retail parks.

383
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But then make the process a little more streamlined in your industrial research park.

384
00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:33,020
So to take that from a special exception to a limited use and then leave it as an S and I see.

385
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And you don't see warehouse specifically on this list because it's captured under that all

386
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industrial uses other than listed catch also if it was a warehouse as a principle use it

387
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would be special exception in IR special exception in IC and with that I can pause and we

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can talk about those uses. With with these changes there is a limit to the amount of public input

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in my correct. So the L is a administrative approval so there would be no public hearing associated

390
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:13,280
with those. But if it's say a black L showing on the screen, that means that's how we're already

391
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:19,540
doing it, that it pretty much already had a administrative review with some specific conditions

392
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that were needed. So the change I'm showing on the screen would go from an S2 and L for many

393
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:31,260
warehouse facility in IAR. So that would yes be eliminating that public hearing component,

394
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and that example.

395
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:40,900
All right, that's one of my pet feeds.

396
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,900
I believe that the public should have some input

397
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into these things.

398
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,180
And so it concerns me that so many, as I've reviewed this,

399
00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:50,960
it seemed like there were so many that were being cut out.

400
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,160
The public was being cut out.

401
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,120
But I appreciate the information.

402
00:33:57,540 --> 00:33:58,640
Just a little bit of a question.

403
00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:00,060
Thank you.

404
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:08,240
So I appreciate you highlighting and including the flex in the commercial suburban.

405
00:34:08,580 --> 00:34:09,700
I think is what it's.

406
00:34:09,740 --> 00:34:10,120
I'm sorry.

407
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:10,880
That's all I should say.

408
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:11,400
Oh, you're right.

409
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,580
I want to make sure I had a right.

410
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:19,700
Marshall suburban because in the definition of flex it does mention it as as not only in industrial

411
00:34:19,700 --> 00:34:21,060
use, but also a commercial use.

412
00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:25,720
And so my question is kind of a process question.

413
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:37,300
If I am a landowner look in the IR or the IC, the Innovation Center, how will I know what

414
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,140
limited uses are available?

415
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,160
Is it just clicking on this, use specific standard?

416
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Yeah, let me talk a little over to the actual ordinance we can walk through that together.

417
00:34:52,380 --> 00:34:52,680
Yeah, please.

418
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:53,540
Thank you.

419
00:34:57,740 --> 00:34:57,920
Okay.

420
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:58,660
Got it.

421
00:34:58,900 --> 00:34:59,180
Alright.

422
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:10,260
Okay, so in this instance, let's go to, let's see the table here under uses. We'll go to Article 3, oops.

423
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:23,030
Okay, and we'll go to Division 9, and we'll go to 9, too. And so we'll scroll down to where we were. Give me one moment.

424
00:35:26,270 --> 00:35:35,710
Okay, there we go. So now we are in the industrial use category. And you see the SLL. So first of all, you might be wondering, well, what do you mean by flex?

425
00:35:35,730 --> 00:35:38,990
So you could hover over this definition there.

426
00:35:39,290 --> 00:35:41,050
And it's a cohesive development comprised

427
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:42,970
of one or more flexible space buildings

428
00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:45,390
with a compatible mixture of light and industrial facilities

429
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:47,950
and other principal accessory commercial office

430
00:35:47,950 --> 00:35:49,870
and our civic institutional uses.

431
00:35:50,090 --> 00:35:53,010
So quite a bit of flexibility in that definition.

432
00:35:55,170 --> 00:35:57,990
And then if you met that definition,

433
00:35:59,570 --> 00:36:03,990
then essentially it's a limited use in these different districts

434
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:06,190
in the IR and the IC.

435
00:36:06,990 --> 00:36:10,530
If you wanted a little bit more additional information about what do you mean by the industrial

436
00:36:10,530 --> 00:36:15,650
use category altogether, you click on that and you can see that the characteristics clearly

437
00:36:15,650 --> 00:36:20,890
defined its uses engaged and research manufacturing and simply processing, et cetera, et cetera,

438
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:21,710
factory production.

439
00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:26,970
And it shows some examples of primary uses, then also lists accessory uses in that category.

440
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:41,420
In my correct and saying in the I.C. The innovation center districts, civic facilities are not permitted.

441
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,440
All right, let's take a look. I see civic uses.

442
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:54,010
There we go.

443
00:36:57,860 --> 00:37:09,260
So in terms of civic uses, you've got library, permitted, all community services, uses other than listed,

444
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:17,380
special exception, and then you've got educational facility, government facility, so there

445
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:24,020
aren't quite a few specific uses that are allowed in the I see. And then what in the I see,

446
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:29,360
what about warehouse or mini warehouse? Okay, let me just hop back there.

447
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:38,920
Go. I see mini warehouse

448
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,940
is a special exception and then warehouse would go under that umbrella term of all industrial

449
00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:47,520
uses other than listed so it's a special exception.

450
00:37:49,020 --> 00:37:55,460
And so typically my understanding of flex when they're developed, similar to Alex St.

451
00:37:55,500 --> 00:38:00,680
John's was developed off of the sickle and they build these properties and they build

452
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,600
the buildings and they don't have the tenants yet.

453
00:38:03,620 --> 00:38:05,620
They don't know who's going to fill.

454
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,980
Are we going to be requiring under the news, owning ordinance, those St. John's properties

455
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:18,720
for instance to come in with every tenant they're trying to sign a lease with to get a special

456
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,200
exception for that use?

457
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,840
I'll give you my answer but then I'll defer to the person over here that'll be interpreting

458
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,920
the code.

459
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:35,600
If St. John's wanted to propose a mini warehouse facility as the principal use public storage

460
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,820
self-storage, and that's the proposal, it's a special exception, but if it's a flex building,

461
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:47,200
meaning it could be carved up into different tenant spaces, then it's a limited use.

462
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:53,740
So the difference becomes what's the principle versus what is within those buildings,

463
00:38:54,120 --> 00:39:00,220
but go ahead Mr. Watkins. You nailed it. I don't really have anything to add other than the

464
00:39:00,220 --> 00:39:04,940
change in non-residential tendency would be monitored with zoning permits, but

465
00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:06,400
now additional not just late of application.

466
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,060
I appreciate it.

467
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:10,160
That's all the questions I have.

468
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:11,920
Sure.

469
00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:13,180
There are two seminar, Johnson.

470
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,420
Thank you for your presentation.

471
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:17,860
I do have one question.

472
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,920
The IR and the IC, could you give us some examples

473
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160
of areas around these burg that we would see that

474
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:32,440
that flex and many warehouse and one other

475
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,960
category I can't remember now,

476
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,080
but would possibly show up.

477
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:36,540
Sure.

478
00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:40,320
So I'm clicking on the interactive zoning map now.

479
00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:42,920
IR is this light purple.

480
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,180
Do some circling here.

481
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,840
This light purple color.

482
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,720
And then I see as this light tan color.

483
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:59,980
So if we zoom in a bit, you can see the IC, or sorry, the IC.

484
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:11,260
A.R. is over here, down near the airport and Compass Creek. I.R. is over here by Village of Leedsburg. This is the one I was

485
00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:19,980
circling before. That's Compass Creek. And then you've got some additional industrial research park. Oops. Sorry.

486
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:30,050
Over here, along Russell Branch Parkway, should really

487
00:40:30,050 --> 00:40:31,770
a mouse next time, sorry,

488
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:41,240
up in this area as well, so that's industrial research park and then

489
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:50,080
innovation center, erase those, that's that light tan color, so you're looking at, this is

490
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:55,660
innovation center over here, so that's your leaseberg gateway or mentions property innovation

491
00:40:55,660 --> 00:41:03,900
center here across the way, which is formally called LEGATE, and then you've got a bunch of

492
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:07,800
I don't feel parkway near the airport and over here.

493
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:12,340
So what types of uses might you find in those districts?

494
00:41:12,540 --> 00:41:13,720
Let's take a look.

495
00:41:20,890 --> 00:41:22,970
One moment, sorry, let me just give you to this.

496
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:25,160
OK,

497
00:41:31,330 --> 00:41:31,790
all right.

498
00:41:32,510 --> 00:41:38,430
So I see, and I are looking at the industrial use category,

499
00:41:39,310 --> 00:41:43,330
contractor, flex, mini warehouse, research development

500
00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:46,730
and production, and then other industrial uses,

501
00:41:46,730 --> 00:41:54,170
other than listed, some other examples, you know, commercial uses in those districts or things like adult

502
00:41:54,170 --> 00:42:03,750
datecare, child care center, craft beverage production, looks like in the IC, restaurants, office uses,

503
00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:04,790
outdoor entertainment.

504
00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:11,710
So quite a few different uses to kind of achieve that district of industrial research or an

505
00:42:11,710 --> 00:42:17,470
innovation center, it's meant to be mixed use, but heavy-related towards the employment generation

506
00:42:17,470 --> 00:42:20,350
with a little bit of housing. Excellent. Thank you so much.

507
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:30,700
Yeah.

508
00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:41,340
Um, then I'll ask you after. Okay. All right. So that was our first discussion question.

509
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:47,280
Did you want to go with our straw poll on these yellow ones like we did last time or?

510
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:49,460
Yeah, I can do that if that would be helpful. Thank you.

511
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,080
So, does the Council agree with the

512
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:56,720
the

513
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:57,120
the

514
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:57,900
the

515
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:57,920
the

516
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:58,060
the

517
00:42:58,060 --> 00:42:58,300
the

518
00:42:58,300 --> 00:42:59,080
the

519
00:43:00,540 --> 00:43:01,820
the

520
00:43:01,820 --> 00:43:03,320
the

521
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:03,960
the

522
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:11,720
the CS, the IR, and I see designations.

523
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:15,040
Are there four people that agree with that?

524
00:43:17,550 --> 00:43:17,710
All right.

525
00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:22,550
And the many warehouse facility.

526
00:43:25,310 --> 00:43:26,870
Four people with that one.

527
00:43:27,010 --> 00:43:28,150
They have that one.

528
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,320
Yes, sir.

529
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:34,980
Claire, fine.

530
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:36,540
Excuse me.

531
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,680
The many warehouse facility where you were

532
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,620
equilating that to a storage facility is a correct storage.

533
00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:46,690
What else would qualify for that?

534
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:48,740
That's pretty much it.

535
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:49,360
Right, Mr. Walkins.

536
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,260
Prime storage over there across from the airport.

537
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,040
Where people just have their stuff and stored in individual lock.

538
00:43:57,420 --> 00:43:58,220
Special exception.

539
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,720
I see limited use.

540
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:01,520
I are.

541
00:44:01,540 --> 00:44:04,060
And you scrapped it from the commercial,

542
00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:05,320
or commercial suburban.

543
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,920
All right. Thank you.

544
00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:08,260
All right.

545
00:44:08,380 --> 00:44:12,920
There are four people that are okay with what's been proposed for that.

546
00:44:15,130 --> 00:44:26,150
Okay, that passes this forward, and then all other industrial, all other uses other than listed, all industrial uses other than listed.

547
00:44:26,610 --> 00:44:28,530
Do we have four people for that one?

548
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:33,050
No, that does not, that does not move forward.

549
00:44:33,250 --> 00:44:35,790
I don't, it was 33.

550
00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:43,590
So I guess if we could just get some direction on maybe where the majority would like us to go with that category.

551
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,280
Does anybody have a suggestion on what they want?

552
00:44:50,420 --> 00:44:52,200
The three of you didn't vote for it, is there a reason

553
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,200
that you, what are you looking for?

554
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:57,480
Mr. Wilt?

555
00:44:57,860 --> 00:44:58,860
Yeah, just got a clarification.

556
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:07,200
We were voting on the changes. And I heard last thing I heard was all industrial uses. I thought we were

557
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,440
taking up the research development and production item.

558
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:13,990
The reason I framed it this way, council member

559
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:22,030
willad is because there was a request to look a little bit more at how we are permitting or not permitting

560
00:45:22,030 --> 00:45:30,350
flex and warehouse uses. So while it's not necessarily a change, warehouse would be in that all industrial

561
00:45:30,350 --> 00:45:36,330
uses other than listed, and will be a special exception on both counts in the industrial research

562
00:45:36,330 --> 00:45:41,450
park district and the Innovation Center district. So if the majority of the council wants to

563
00:45:41,450 --> 00:45:46,310
change that S to an L or an M or get rid of it or add it to more districts we'd love to hear

564
00:45:46,310 --> 00:45:54,470
that direction. Yeah, just in clarification. Which S are we talking about? Sure. Let me just use

565
00:45:54,470 --> 00:46:00,510
vote was, sorry about that. So here we go, this one here, talk about that one and this one.

566
00:46:00,690 --> 00:46:04,310
Okay, we're no proposed changes on. No proposed changes, correct?

567
00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:06,590
We skipped the research development production line, I don't know.

568
00:46:06,850 --> 00:46:08,170
We didn't do anything on that yet.

569
00:46:08,850 --> 00:46:10,630
Okay, that's what I thought we were going in order.

570
00:46:12,010 --> 00:46:14,570
I'm going down here at the questions. One, two, three at the bottom.

571
00:46:15,050 --> 00:46:15,970
Got it. Okay.

572
00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:25,590
So do we want to look at all industrial uses other than listed? Do we have four people in the

573
00:46:25,590 --> 00:46:27,310
I ask you a question on that one.

574
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:28,510
Thank you.

575
00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:33,970
On the way, it's written currently with the special exceptions in the IR and the IC.

576
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:41,950
Can you walk me through just quickly what's that's going to use to evaluate the standards for this special exception?

577
00:46:43,610 --> 00:46:43,810
Sure.

578
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:45,930
All right.

579
00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:47,590
Let me get back to the rewrite.

580
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:51,870
So there.

581
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,140
So we would go, and we'd see it's a special exception, all industrial uses that then listed.

582
00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:08,780
Let's get down to that part of the table here.

583
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:13,560
What about it?

584
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:14,160
What about it?

585
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:15,300
Thank you.

586
00:47:18,130 --> 00:47:19,470
Nope, I think it's up top.

587
00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:21,250
Industrial, where are you?

588
00:47:23,580 --> 00:47:24,100
There it is.

589
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:29,160
And so if it's all industrial uses other than listed, that's the catch all.

590
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:30,760
So we would go to this use category.

591
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:40,560
And so somebody proposes a special exception and we look at the characteristics and so the administrator would look at what's in that gray box.

592
00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:49,980
Is this a use engaged in the research manufacturing assembly, processing, servicing or warehousing of chemicals, animal products, equipments and metals.

593
00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:59,760
The activities which are likely to have characteristics that discourage adjacency to residential uses factory production industrial cleaning industrial yards warehousing and distribution are located here.

594
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,520
So, that's the first test.

595
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:04,780
Does it meet the characteristic of the use category?

596
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,600
And then, here's some examples of primary uses within this use category.

597
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:12,820
So let's say it's a hypothetical warehouse that's being proposed.

598
00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:14,560
That looks pretty clear.

599
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,420
And then, here's your second test, accessory uses.

600
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,780
What else is going on in that proposal?

601
00:48:21,340 --> 00:48:23,000
Is there some office space?

602
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,880
There's there, fueling facilities, outdoor storage, et cetera.

603
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,360
That's all right, as well.

604
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:36,140
But then you got to look at the special exception criteria, which is what the council is intended to use whenever they review special exceptions.

605
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,340
And that's things like compatibility with the neighborhood impact on the neighborhood.

606
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,240
Let's see what number is that special exception criteria.

607
00:48:44,980 --> 00:48:45,560
28.5.

608
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,940
So then you have to code of that, which is the kind of the general special exception criteria.

609
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,120
28.5.

610
00:48:55,940 --> 00:48:58,720
So we would look through all of these.

611
00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:03,710
Let's see the planning commission.

612
00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:05,090
I'll keep going, sorry.

613
00:49:05,850 --> 00:49:06,650
Here we go.

614
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:12,080
Approval criteria.

615
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,500
So the proposed use will not effortlessly affect the use of neighboring properties.

616
00:49:17,860 --> 00:49:18,540
Number one.

617
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:23,920
Well, the use shall comply with the applicable zoning district regulations and applicable provisions of the doctor town plan.

618
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,160
Number two.

619
00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:29,060
Number three, location size and height of building structures walls and fences.

620
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,500
etc., etc., does not hinder or discourage the appropriate development in use of adjacent or nearby land,

621
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,020
and then there's a criterion about pedestrian if you hit your traffic as well.

622
00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:45,220
So that's the main decision criteria for any special exception proposal.

623
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,560
And the reason we go through that is because we want to make sure it's compatible with the neighborhood.

624
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,800
It's not creating any unforeseen impacts.

625
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:55,960
I appreciate that.

626
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,980
from where I said, I understand the person.

627
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:16,400
I suspect of the kind of catch all for everything, because we don't want to have a long list, but I do find it in my conversations with property owners and folks who work with property owners to be more, create more confusion.

628
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:22,360
And so, that's why I keep my hand down for the all other uses.

629
00:50:28,330 --> 00:50:34,250
So on real terms, if we look in different parts of the town, we have storage facilities

630
00:50:35,790 --> 00:50:40,070
on trail view, cyclin road, and battlefield.

631
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:49,820
And I would offer that, for example, in those three sites, in those two locations you probably

632
00:50:49,820 --> 00:50:55,600
would not want, and industrial use, as you described, where they were storing chemistry

633
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,720
and so on because they're all in relatively close but well, except for trail view, the other

634
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:04,860
tour within relatively close proximity, very close proximity to residential.

635
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:13,480
So it doesn't seem unreasonable that you would want to be able to have a structure review

636
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:22,600
of those some industrial uses as opposed to permitting anything within these two

637
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:50,700
And I would be worried about that very same thing, so I think this is pretty straightforward in, and, you know, if I can follow it, that's a pretty good indication that it's okay, but, you know, I think that the special acceptance appropriate, we need to be able to have the public input, especially on things of this nature, so I have no problems with what we have in that place.

638
00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:56,220
So then I go back and ask do we have four hands that are a favor of the all industrial use other than listed

639
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:04,660
Where it how it's set up right now. All right, that passes. Thank you. Thank you

640
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:08,900
Did you Mr. Will wish to go back to research and development?

641
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,100
Yes, that's still an open question. That was a proposed change there. I think was that resolved?

642
00:52:16,580 --> 00:52:20,140
I know sir. So the proposed change for research and development is to

643
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:23,100
remove it as a special exception use in

644
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:23,860
commercial suburban.

645
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:32,070
So, do you need a vote on that one? Sure. Okay.

646
00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:38,510
Are there questions, since we're on that topic? Currently, research and development

647
00:52:39,050 --> 00:52:43,250
wise, I can only think of one building, but I'm sure there's others, and that would be

648
00:52:43,250 --> 00:52:46,690
off Tolbert Lane, I believe. Do you know of any others?

649
00:52:49,770 --> 00:52:50,930
We're about hope.

650
00:52:57,190 --> 00:53:01,730
What was the discussion on removing the special exception for that?

651
00:53:02,770 --> 00:53:03,930
I can get on board.

652
00:53:04,490 --> 00:53:05,250
I just want to understand.

653
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:08,790
This was removed from the Planning Commission, correct?

654
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:10,210
These edits here.

655
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:11,910
These weren't the ones that we suggested.

656
00:53:13,390 --> 00:53:17,070
So what you see is mutual recommendation from staff and the Planning Commission.

657
00:53:17,070 --> 00:53:26,970
And the reason for removing it as a special exception use in suburban commercial is because that district is really regional serving retail.

658
00:53:27,870 --> 00:53:36,370
And so occupying that retail commercial space with research development production used in necessarily aligned with the new town plan policy.

659
00:53:44,900 --> 00:53:44,980
Okay.

660
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:46,620
Not problem.

661
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:47,540
Thank you.

662
00:53:47,540 --> 00:54:00,720
Okay, on this one, do you want to have anything on this one, are there four hands that would be willing to support the research and development and production community suburban, no commercial suburban, right?

663
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:06,860
Being removed is especially exception and not permitted at all, are there four hands in favor of that?

664
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,440
All right, that goes forward.

665
00:54:08,740 --> 00:54:09,220
Thank you.

666
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:10,780
Thank you very much.

667
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:18,020
All right, the next specific deep dive topic relative to permissibility of uses is lodging.

668
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:25,900
And so consumer Steinberg, consumer Kukaski, wanted to look at lodging as a whole, but

669
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:31,240
also short-term residential rentals, which will get to once we get through the use table.

670
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:34,660
We'll take a little deeper dive at the use standards for those as well.

671
00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:42,980
So what I've done here is I've grabbed where these lodging uses are allowed for the residential

672
00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:49,380
districts. That's the top excerpt here and then the non-residential mixed use districts. That's

673
00:54:49,380 --> 00:54:55,360
the bottom one that you see on the screen there. So in terms of residential districts,

674
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,960
Bed and breakfast is the only lodging use and it's allowed by special exception.

675
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:26,580
And in residential suburban and residential historic, it's currently allowed in those districts as well. There is a change though to the number of rooms. We've increased that to proposed 15 max rooms in a bed and breakfast. In the non-residential mixed use, you see bed and breakfast is permitted in downtown. There's no change there from the existing zoning ordinance. But the other change that you see is to hotel.

676
00:55:28,060 --> 00:55:33,900
So, hotel is permitted in suburban commercial suburban, no change.

677
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,140
Can I have two first of, are we talking about bed and breakfast first?

678
00:55:37,860 --> 00:55:39,220
Before we go into hotel.

679
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,020
I don't know if anybody else has any questions on it.

680
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,340
But I, in reading it, I had some real concerns.

681
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:51,400
First off, the fact that we're increasing the room a lot to 15.

682
00:55:51,400 --> 00:56:06,500
And when I looked at other residential areas, most of them have them capped at five and I'm concerned that in the downtown we're going to start allowing a 15 room bed and breakfast that seems pretty excessive.

683
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:19,960
And it concerns me because then you've got to start thinking about parking and traffic and things of that nature when you're adding 15 possibly two people at room you're now talking about 30 people in a bed and breakfast.

684
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:27,280
But it also, I'm also concerned because it seems to remove the protections that we had in place before.

685
00:56:28,580 --> 00:56:32,960
You've gotten rid of no alterations to the exterior appearance of the building,

686
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:39,900
or any accessory structure, or the premise shall be made within changes within the residential character of the property.

687
00:56:40,580 --> 00:56:46,060
No traffic shall be generated by such bed and breakfast and greater volumes than would normally be expected in residential neighborhood.

688
00:56:46,060 --> 00:56:55,780
No need for parking generated by the bed and breakfast shall be met with the use of off-street parking in a manner which protects the residential character of the area and the visual appearance.

689
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:04,480
The bed and breakfast located at a commercial zoning district may only have weddings, receptions, and businesses as an excess acceler...

690
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:07,020
What's the word?

691
00:57:08,540 --> 00:57:10,020
An additional use.

692
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:12,420
Sorry about that.

693
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:25,640
And so I feel like you've taken the protections away from the residents that live in the downtown commercial, not the commercial, but the residential areas, by not taking these into consideration.

694
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:36,440
Why were these taken off and you're changing it from, you're making it permitted, excuse me.

695
00:57:37,740 --> 00:57:38,180
Is that correct?

696
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:46,600
And the downtown is it was already permitted by right, but not at that 15 room number at your correct.

697
00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:55,320
So I can explain a little bit, but certainly open to changes as well if that's the way we want to go.

698
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,440
The existing ordinance has bed and breakfast commercial in and hotel.

699
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,120
And recall a few years back that this council changed the definition of commercial in,

700
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,540
increased it from, what was it, 10 rooms Mr. Watkins, to 40.

701
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:20,620
And so you lost that middle ground between, you know, bed and breakfast and hotel.

702
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:28,680
And so we figured you don't really need that commercial in term anymore, because it's essentially functioning just like a hotel with 40 rooms.

703
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:34,620
But maybe there's an opportunity to increase the capacity of bed and breakfast a bit to hit that sweet spot.

704
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,260
But if the council feels like five rooms is where you'd like to be, staff is open to that.

705
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:47,860
I can tell you that I had a neighborhood community meeting out there and knocking doors.

706
00:58:48,780 --> 00:58:55,760
There, people are very concerned about making it 15, because of the impact to the downtown.

707
00:58:56,820 --> 00:59:03,680
If you want to do it, they didn't have quite the issue elsewhere, but in the downtown you've got narrow streets.

708
00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:06,920
You've got different types of housing.

709
00:59:07,660 --> 00:59:14,720
I don't know that there was many houses that would have room for 15, but it's a real concern.

710
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:26,140
And the fact that they're not going to have to, that you're taking away these particular items for 15 rooms is going to have a huge impact on the downtown.

711
00:59:26,740 --> 00:59:41,620
And again, in other areas maybe not so much, but the downtown being unique and small and historic, the 15 is very worrisome to individuals within that live in that area.

712
00:59:41,620 --> 00:59:44,540
and the concern that a lot of the residential,

713
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,040
they're concerned that we're not preserving the residential aspect

714
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:48,720
of the downtown.

715
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:51,560
So we need to be aware of that.

716
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:52,880
We need to be careful about that.

717
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,340
And I just think 15 rows is way too big.

718
00:59:56,620 --> 00:59:58,500
I would be OK with having five.

719
00:59:59,380 --> 00:59:59,980
But the 15.

720
01:00:00,980 --> 01:00:04,380
And I said the people that I spoke to,

721
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:11,480
so I got to be on record for saying 15, Mr. Kerkelsky. I mean, same five.

722
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:26,580
Thank you, Mayor. I was going to approach this as well. So I guess, holistically approaching a question, understanding we took away commercial and so it's basically bed and breakfast and then anything over is just straight to hotel.

723
01:00:26,580 --> 01:00:35,420
So we're going one room to 15 I do have downtown is Max 50. I'm sorry. I started in a Ruppah hotel

724
01:00:35,420 --> 01:00:46,210
Met downtown is Max 50 rooms. Yes. Thank you. So looking for a middle ground to try and understand. So I agree that 15

725
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:55,370
The reason I have an issue with 15 would be because I don't think there's any room or any homes in Leesburg because I think the idea

726
01:00:55,370 --> 01:01:00,950
with the bed and breakfast is that it's a home generally turned into a service. I don't know

727
01:01:00,950 --> 01:01:06,970
there may be some homes with 15 rooms, but I'm trying to think through possibly the carriage

728
01:01:06,970 --> 01:01:14,090
house, I don't even think that has 15 rooms. So I'm not sure, I'm not to say five is not the right answer,

729
01:01:14,230 --> 01:01:25,350
I think that might be maybe a tad low, but I'm thinking through if we're going to turn one of these

730
01:01:25,350 --> 01:01:29,370
But there certainly are some that maybe exist in that eight to ten area.

731
01:01:30,510 --> 01:01:33,790
So I guess this is more just a, as a conversation start.

732
01:01:34,510 --> 01:01:37,590
So that's my input is to look at it as if we're going,

733
01:01:37,750 --> 01:01:40,770
I don't want anybody building it and then calling it a B&B.

734
01:01:40,830 --> 01:01:44,290
I think that loses its charm and character of what a B&B really is.

735
01:01:44,490 --> 01:01:47,210
And in order to, if you're going to go to that 15 to maximize,

736
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:48,850
you're probably going to have to build it.

737
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:51,310
It's not going to come from a home that already exists here.

738
01:01:51,310 --> 01:02:04,250
So as a conversation starter, certainly lowering the 15 number, I think is important, but perhaps we can examine a little higher than five.

739
01:02:04,890 --> 01:02:15,910
You know, some localities, I have a list of different localities, and I forgot to write which one, I'm sorry, but one of them requires that the house has to be 50 years older.

740
01:02:16,650 --> 01:02:19,730
So you don't have to build things on Mr. Welp?

741
01:02:19,730 --> 01:02:28,130
Thanks, can I follow up on that line of questioning James the assumption that it's a

742
01:02:28,130 --> 01:02:32,000
residential house converted into a bed breakfast? Is that a requirement on the zoning code?

743
01:02:34,310 --> 01:02:39,550
Yes, yes, it is. Okay, and then so you don't simply

744
01:02:43,110 --> 01:02:45,970
build new construction and then call it a bed and breakfast.

745
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,960
The ordinance doesn't distinguish new versus old construction.

746
01:02:55,100 --> 01:03:00,100
It's intended to be a home with a resident manager for which transient guests can stay.

747
01:03:00,740 --> 01:03:06,440
OK, so in that case, can you briefly, in the downtown, then discuss what are the functional

748
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,820
distinctions between the bed and breakfast category and the hotel category?

749
01:03:09,820 --> 01:03:10,640
I'll

750
01:03:12,660 --> 01:03:13,940
pull it up, and you can...

751
01:03:13,940 --> 01:03:14,860
I think the number of rooms.

752
01:03:15,940 --> 01:03:16,720
But I think there's...

753
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,120
There are major disabilities on site.

754
01:03:19,020 --> 01:03:20,820
Yeah, so the major distinction is again,

755
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,540
it's a residence where you have a resident manager.

756
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:29,760
So it could be that there's a out-of-a-town owner

757
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,440
who has a resident manager who operates the facility.

758
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,660
Okay, so in that distinction, so for example,

759
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,460
you'll have a night manager who's station there,

760
01:03:38,460 --> 01:03:42,220
So you're saying it resident manager who has a living residence on site.

761
01:03:42,340 --> 01:03:45,840
Is that the distinction that must have a live on site living manager?

762
01:03:46,140 --> 01:03:52,340
So one of the living spaces has to be dedicated to a manager, correct?

763
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:53,780
And not be overnight rental.

764
01:03:54,220 --> 01:03:56,140
Or the owner, one of the other owner, all right?

765
01:03:56,420 --> 01:03:57,140
Yeah, all right.

766
01:03:59,660 --> 01:04:02,700
Versus a hotel to commercially use.

767
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:03,940
Mm-hmm.

768
01:04:04,060 --> 01:04:04,800
Thank you.

769
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,120
You could say that faster than I could pull the definition of.

770
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:14,680
Okay, and there are no other requirements, so a hotel, you know, a satisfactory restaurant.

771
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:21,140
It's a, are there any functional, other functional requirements that distinguish the two?

772
01:04:21,260 --> 01:04:22,080
Others are not one.

773
01:04:22,540 --> 01:04:24,740
Sure, so I've got the definition pulled out.

774
01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:30,100
I know it's a little hard to read, but hotel is a building or a group of buildings, collection

775
01:04:30,100 --> 01:04:32,880
of guest rooms or suites with it without cooking facilities.

776
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:39,080
They may also have additional services, conference meeting rooms, restaurants, bars, personal

777
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,760
services, retail services, rec facilities.

778
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:49,220
Ben breakfast, it's much less intense as Mr. Watkins was describing, overnight accommodations

779
01:04:49,220 --> 01:04:53,720
a morning meal, provided in a single family detached residence.

780
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:55,440
There's a big distinction there.

781
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,980
you've got to be a single-family detached residence that's owner or...

782
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:14,380
Manager occupied. In the rooms cannot have cooking facilities. So, when you say so in the hotel, the only requirement was overnight accommodation. The rest of those were may have something but they're not requirements.

783
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:23,360
Correct. So, overnight accommodation. The bed and breakfast is an overnight accommodation. But when you say in a single family residence.

784
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,040
So, you go family detached residents?

785
01:05:25,220 --> 01:05:27,720
It's zone, then, as a residential property.

786
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:30,200
Not necessarily no.

787
01:05:30,380 --> 01:05:32,080
Structure just has to resemble.

788
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,200
Is this a single family structure?

789
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,100
It has to have a permit as a single family dwelling.

790
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,400
Okay, but it had in the past or it's current.

791
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,960
Yeah, it's current uses currently permitted

792
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,100
as a single family, then you can supplement

793
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:53,120
that use with the B and B.

794
01:05:56,130 --> 01:05:57,530
All right, and so then.

795
01:06:00,730 --> 01:06:03,430
Back to the slide here. Back to the slide. Okay.

796
01:06:11,340 --> 01:06:13,860
You originally had that it was

797
01:06:13,860 --> 01:06:16,460
permitted, bed and breakfast, in the downtown.

798
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,700
Yes, and that's up to 15 rooms.

799
01:06:21,860 --> 01:06:24,180
That's the change. The existing ordinance is

800
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:26,200
10.

801
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:28,960
So 10 or 11, isn't it?

802
01:06:29,460 --> 01:06:32,260
We're going to double check what the existing ordinance is real quick.

803
01:06:33,980 --> 01:06:36,100
Okay, while you're doing that, the hotel,

804
01:06:36,100 --> 01:06:46,120
You had proposed a minor special exception of the downtown and you're proposing to change that to limited use.

805
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:47,160
Correct.

806
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,360
What's the reasoning behind that?

807
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,580
As I mentioned earlier, implementing town plan policy.

808
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,140
So there's policy that supports tourism in the downtown.

809
01:06:56,900 --> 01:07:04,680
And so this is an opportunity to streamline the process for what the town plan and the council is calling for in the downtown district.

810
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,980
Okay, and that would be limited use subject to use standards.

811
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:10,120
What are those?

812
01:07:10,420 --> 01:07:12,360
No more than 50 rooms primarily.

813
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:15,540
Oh, if you're under 50 rooms, it's essentially permitted.

814
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:17,080
Yeah, let's look at that together.

815
01:07:17,100 --> 01:07:18,400
See if there's any other use standards.

816
01:07:19,740 --> 01:07:21,560
And Mr. Watkins confirmed the existing ordinance

817
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,260
is five rooms in a bed and breakfast.

818
01:07:30,410 --> 01:07:31,910
Okay, so I'm just going to click on these.

819
01:07:32,510 --> 01:07:34,170
Use standards here for bed and breakfast.

820
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:35,230
Others hotel.

821
01:07:36,070 --> 01:07:38,130
So there's two standards in the DT district,

822
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:39,370
no more than 50 rooms.

823
01:07:39,370 --> 01:07:44,230
And a minimum of 60% of the gross full area of the hotel you shall be for lodging.

824
01:07:44,790 --> 01:07:45,330
Thank you, James.

825
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:46,370
A problem?

826
01:07:47,430 --> 01:07:48,310
I just am in a Johnson.

827
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:55,390
I don't know if this will help, but in the current Virginia 30th have.1 they defined bed and breakfast

828
01:07:55,390 --> 01:08:00,290
as a maximum of 18 transient guests on any single day.

829
01:08:00,610 --> 01:08:04,210
So it does not list number of rooms but number of people.

830
01:08:05,350 --> 01:08:13,210
But bringing it down certainly I could see us making some change because 15 rooms and not sure I would consider a bed and breakfast ever.

831
01:08:14,950 --> 01:08:17,090
I might even be more rooms than most residents have.

832
01:08:18,750 --> 01:08:22,550
So, I would, I would be right with nine, but I'm not sure about I'm right with 15.

833
01:08:25,480 --> 01:08:26,220
I mean, thank you.

834
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,060
I just, sorry to ask, maybe dumb question.

835
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:38,920
So the current downtown that we're changing the zoning in our downtown, the zoning names, right?

836
01:08:39,260 --> 01:08:45,500
The map names that we're going from, we have downtown, which is kind of the commercial one, right?

837
01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:52,280
And then the, the R-H, the residential historic, is the homes kind of surrounding the B-1.

838
01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:55,880
Exactly right. It's currently called R-H-D, so we dropped the D.

839
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:02,380
and so we're I want to just make sure I'm under state so to do a bed and breakfast in the

840
01:09:02,380 --> 01:09:07,380
RH is a special exit you have to come to the planning commission go through the council through the

841
01:09:07,380 --> 01:09:14,960
MN through the council the existing and also right and it's not and do we have a cap on rooms for that

842
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:21,320
It's currently five five. Okay, all right, so we're not we didn't change that we only changed the downtown

843
01:09:22,300 --> 01:09:25,180
No, we changed bed and breakfast to 15 across the board

844
01:09:26,500 --> 01:09:27,840
I'm having so much fun.

845
01:09:28,180 --> 01:09:29,960
I would never stay to bed and breakfast, that's probably what.

846
01:09:31,740 --> 01:09:34,800
Yeah, I agree with what the mayor and the vice mayor and others have said,

847
01:09:34,980 --> 01:09:37,980
I think 15 is a lot for a bed and breakfast.

848
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,260
I would support bringing that number down.

849
01:09:41,460 --> 01:09:42,900
I don't know what that number is.

850
01:09:43,020 --> 01:09:48,320
I mean, I don't think there's a house in the downtown that can have 15 rooms

851
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:49,760
with a bed and breakfast, maybe one or two.

852
01:09:50,220 --> 01:09:53,480
So, yeah, I mean, I would support, you know, somewhere between five and eight,

853
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:55,620
I guess is the two numbers I heard or five or nine.

854
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:06,840
I will be bringing this up as a point of scale, so the colonial lid, which is in the business

855
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:10,340
district downtown, do we know how many rooms they have?

856
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,500
I think it's five, I don't know for a fact, I think it's a ballpark of five.

857
01:10:18,780 --> 01:10:24,620
So it's a substantial building in terms of size, typically it's bigger, I think, than your average

858
01:10:24,620 --> 01:10:30,180
house in any case and certainly wealth and walking distance of restaurants and parking and so on.

859
01:10:30,180 --> 01:10:36,920
And so if you took that operation and tripled it and then tried to put it into a house,

860
01:10:37,140 --> 01:10:40,500
I think you'd really be over taxing both the house and the neighborhood.

861
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,780
So I have no problem leaving it at five,

862
01:10:49,010 --> 01:10:50,450
and most properties in the areas.

863
01:10:53,070 --> 01:10:58,190
And I do have, I'll get back to the hotel, but I'll wait till we get to the hotel.

864
01:10:58,930 --> 01:11:03,850
So, do we have four people that would be willing to compromise on it?

865
01:11:04,230 --> 01:11:07,670
There are a couple of us that would want five, a couple that would be okay with seven,

866
01:11:08,530 --> 01:11:10,490
a couple, one, eight, nine, whatever.

867
01:11:11,750 --> 01:11:14,130
How about if we come from, well, let's start with five.

868
01:11:14,690 --> 01:11:18,470
Are there, are there any four people that would be willing to do the five?

869
01:11:20,710 --> 01:11:21,590
Okay, six.

870
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:29,410
How about if we compromise that seven, could you accept seven,

871
01:11:32,290 --> 01:11:35,490
seven, probably then put your hand up?

872
01:11:36,750 --> 01:11:37,970
Okay, wait a minute.

873
01:11:38,230 --> 01:11:38,870
Is your hand up?

874
01:11:40,110 --> 01:11:40,670
You're almost there.

875
01:11:41,790 --> 01:11:42,510
You're getting forward.

876
01:11:42,930 --> 01:11:44,150
No, we only got three.

877
01:11:44,290 --> 01:11:44,650
For seven.

878
01:11:44,890 --> 01:11:45,550
For about to get.

879
01:11:49,060 --> 01:11:50,260
Oh, I'm going to have.

880
01:11:50,540 --> 01:11:52,720
Yeah, so now we're at.

881
01:11:56,440 --> 01:11:59,960
That's a lot of people that's 16 people in a house.

882
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:01,200
My name out of mayor.

883
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:03,480
I actually have a couple of homes in mind.

884
01:12:03,620 --> 01:12:04,600
I'm not saying I'm, you know.

885
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,080
But I do know a couple of homes that are eight bedroom,

886
01:12:08,260 --> 01:12:10,380
and they would make fantastic R&BVs,

887
01:12:10,480 --> 01:12:13,000
and I'd hate, or I'm sorry, I've been breakfast,

888
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:17,320
and I'd hate to shutter the opportunity one day

889
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:22,080
because we had an arbitrary option for the number of rooms,

890
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,440
And I think that eight would be the sweet spot.

891
01:12:25,220 --> 01:12:27,900
If I could add one of those eight has to go to the owner or manager.

892
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:29,140
That's a good point.

893
01:12:29,620 --> 01:12:30,220
There you go.

894
01:12:30,620 --> 01:12:30,780
Okay.

895
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:31,220
Eight.

896
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,080
Do we have four people that's only just a word question?

897
01:12:36,220 --> 01:12:41,280
If we said, if we said it five, but somebody came through and they're one and eight.

898
01:12:41,620 --> 01:12:46,300
Is there any process by which they could gain that or is it or close?

899
01:12:47,820 --> 01:12:50,760
Well, it's special exception already in our H and R S.

900
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:57,920
So you could entertain, there was a process that we could achieve that if it was deemed

901
01:12:58,560 --> 01:12:59,040
doable.

902
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:04,560
But for the downtown, it's permitted at eight, so they would have to ask for a zoning

903
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,160
minor special exception of the council, a modified special entity.

904
01:13:08,440 --> 01:13:09,620
It may just make a point of order.

905
01:13:10,260 --> 01:13:12,960
Somebody can mention the colonial and only has five rooms.

906
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:14,340
It actually is ten guest rooms.

907
01:13:15,180 --> 01:13:15,740
Just that way.

908
01:13:16,060 --> 01:13:19,540
I'm not, yeah, I'm just saying it.

909
01:13:19,540 --> 01:13:23,400
but hey. Okay. Got it.

910
01:13:23,420 --> 01:13:24,300
Do we got eight?

911
01:13:24,380 --> 01:13:25,700
Great. Thank you.

912
01:13:25,860 --> 01:13:26,740
Thank you.

913
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:28,620
On this topic, super brief.

914
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,640
So I'm looking at our staff packet and under bed and I just might be in the wrong section.

915
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:41,360
But the bed and breakfast on this form only has permitted dt.

916
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:45,540
But we are allowing bed and breakfast in other areas, correct?

917
01:13:45,540 --> 01:13:52,140
R S and R H yes something maybe I missed that in the staff report that's an

918
01:13:52,140 --> 01:13:58,600
actual suburban and residential what's the H historic yes

919
01:14:02,380 --> 01:14:04,220
well okay so up

920
01:14:04,220 --> 01:14:14,860
there it still shows permitted only for DT so we are is that wrong are you

921
01:14:14,860 --> 01:14:18,180
looking at the residential tables as well as the non-residential mixed use

922
01:14:18,180 --> 01:14:18,980
because it's separate.

923
01:14:19,380 --> 01:14:22,460
What you got on the screen is what we got.

924
01:14:22,940 --> 01:14:26,040
Okay, so that's in, so that's in table 921.

925
01:14:26,340 --> 01:14:27,960
So it's at the beginning of that section.

926
01:14:28,580 --> 01:14:32,700
You'll see an S next to R, S, and R, H.

927
01:14:32,980 --> 01:14:34,300
A lot to go through here along.

928
01:14:35,980 --> 01:14:37,400
While you're looking, can I ask a question?

929
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:38,080
Yes, ma'am.

930
01:14:38,740 --> 01:14:42,260
So the things that I brought up about the traffic generation

931
01:14:42,820 --> 01:14:44,940
and the appearance of the building

932
01:14:44,940 --> 01:14:50,340
and the need for parking, all of that is gone.

933
01:14:50,740 --> 01:14:53,820
So we're not going to have that be a consideration at all.

934
01:14:55,100 --> 01:14:56,420
No, it's not gone.

935
01:14:56,620 --> 01:14:59,980
It was covered in other parts of the ordinance, off street parking.

936
01:15:01,460 --> 01:15:12,840
Requirements, special exception criteria that I read earlier, compatibility, etc. But if you'd like, we can go back and look at those standards and make sure that nothing has been removed and add them back.

937
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:16,800
Well, I think that's important protections for the residents.

938
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:17,620
No problem.

939
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,920
Okay. Oh, but you don't have a question about it. Okay.

940
01:15:29,710 --> 01:15:31,790
Okay, I guess I got it. It's much as I'm going to get.

941
01:15:31,790 --> 01:15:36,710
And the hotel, before you begin, talk about the hotel.

942
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:42,250
The first thing that strikes me about the hotel

943
01:15:42,250 --> 01:15:48,110
is we just made bed and breakfast, which are eight rooms.

944
01:15:50,370 --> 01:15:53,830
We made them, especially exceptions, but in the hotels,

945
01:15:54,070 --> 01:15:57,970
we're making it permitted and limited use.

946
01:15:57,970 --> 01:16:04,010
Those are much bigger buildings, which will much bigger requirements and much bigger implications.

947
01:16:04,370 --> 01:16:07,350
And we're going to do it by permit.

948
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:12,930
We're going to permit them to do that without any public input.

949
01:16:13,770 --> 01:16:14,310
Not exactly.

950
01:16:15,910 --> 01:16:20,010
So, bed and breakfast is only a special exception in those residential zoning districts.

951
01:16:20,010 --> 01:16:23,330
Ben and breakfast is permitted by right downtown.

952
01:16:24,370 --> 01:16:28,650
So in the non-residential districts and mixed use districts,

953
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:31,710
hotel is also permitted or limited.

954
01:16:32,530 --> 01:16:36,150
So it's the same treatment in that category of districts.

955
01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:39,170
hotels are not allowed in residential districts at all.

956
01:16:40,390 --> 01:16:40,390
Okay,

957
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:44,680
I still don't have all these old things.

958
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,640
So hotel is in commercial suburban.

959
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:59,300
So hotel is already allowed by right in the equivalent of the commercial suburban, which is what we call it now, Mr.

960
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:03,260
Why I can see are the old zoning ordinance for CS?

961
01:17:03,260 --> 01:17:04,320
No, it helps.

962
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,200
Our B3.

963
01:17:07,700 --> 01:17:13,000
And then it used to be a minor special exception in the Industrial Research District.

964
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:18,520
We took that out, again, to get doesn't really align with the town plan for that type of district.

965
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:26,780
but yes, it used to be a minor special exception in downtown or B1. Remember, MU and I see

966
01:17:26,780 --> 01:17:33,460
are new districts. So it used to be like, oh, one and B4 basically. Right. And we made it

967
01:17:33,460 --> 01:17:40,380
permitted and limited based on that town plan policy based on the direction that your comprehensive

968
01:17:40,380 --> 01:17:46,820
The document gives us which is a tracked and support tourism and lodging downtown.

969
01:17:48,060 --> 01:17:52,180
Yeah, but that's nice to attract tourism and lodging downtown, but we also want to make sure

970
01:17:52,180 --> 01:17:54,840
we're taking care of the residents that live here now.

971
01:17:54,840 --> 01:18:02,060
I just had M-U, this M-U is basically,

972
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:02,560
excuse me.

973
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:03,160
Excuse me.

974
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:03,740
Excuse me.

975
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,280
Is it where I live?

976
01:18:13,100 --> 01:18:13,960
Is that mixed juice?

977
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,740
So if we're property, we've got that mixed juice,

978
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,760
and then Village at Leesburg mixed juice,

979
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:22,680
and then also the old Wal-Mart building

980
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:29,940
in that road kind of paralleling the gateway or the bypass mixed use Shenandoah square.

981
01:18:31,980 --> 01:18:35,420
Again, you know, this is what the Commission and staff are proposing to try and implement

982
01:18:35,420 --> 01:18:36,200
that town plan.

983
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:41,280
But if the council feels more comfortable leaving it at legislative review, we're open to

984
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:42,300
it.

985
01:18:42,860 --> 01:18:43,260
I would.

986
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:47,960
I think, you know, the mixed use has a potential to be significant.

987
01:18:47,960 --> 01:19:00,760
And I just don't think that having a building of 50 rooms with restaurants and other accessory parts of it are, I don't think it should be just simply permitted.

988
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:07,560
I think it should be, you know, at the very minimum, a minor special exception,

989
01:19:10,340 --> 01:19:16,300
but, but I think there has to be more eyes on it than just to permit, you know, being a permitted use myself.

990
01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:22,400
But anyway, so, Mr. Cummings.

991
01:19:22,660 --> 01:19:23,360
Thank you.

992
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:24,580
I hear you on the mixed use.

993
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,240
But kind of the, in my understanding of the mixed use district,

994
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,980
it's going to have commercial office.

995
01:19:32,540 --> 01:19:39,380
So I don't know if, I'm less concerned at the mixed use than the downtown.

996
01:19:39,660 --> 01:19:40,460
Well, very true.

997
01:19:40,900 --> 01:19:45,160
So, I mean, I would be, I would be up to talking about looking at that downtown

998
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:49,560
versus the mixed-use. I think the mixed-use is a natural place for a hotel versus the downtown,

999
01:19:50,420 --> 01:19:53,340
which has only so many limited places to put another hotel.

1000
01:19:53,740 --> 01:19:58,580
And I don't disagree with you, but I'm saying that the building itself is a large building.

1001
01:19:58,660 --> 01:19:59,980
Like you said, it could be a multiple...

1002
01:20:01,220 --> 01:20:12,400
And I'm concerned that we're not going to have much many eyes on it. And we have had, you know, we know that we need to have eyes on these big buildings without name anybody.

1003
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:22,380
And so, but I agree with Mr. Cummings, I'm also concerned about the downtown being

1004
01:20:22,380 --> 01:20:36,120
a limited use, you know, our downtown is very special and very unique, and I've been fortunate enough to be able to travel around Virginia lately.

1005
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:40,360
And that's one of the things that many of the other localities really

1006
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:45,580
MV us because we do have the historic downtown that does, that we've

1007
01:20:45,580 --> 01:20:47,120
preserved and that they have not.

1008
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:51,360
And so I don't want to be in a position where we're not taking care of the downtown.

1009
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:54,980
I wish.

1010
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:01,420
So anyway, I don't think there's a vote yet on the hotel.

1011
01:21:01,740 --> 01:21:03,880
I just, I was trying to editorialize there.

1012
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,920
So if you wanted to continue with what you were doing it,

1013
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:12,960
see there's nobody over here with you, so it's right now

1014
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:14,300
I know I have to

1015
01:21:14,300 --> 01:21:15,440
You usually carry hits

1016
01:21:15,980 --> 01:21:24,600
Okay, yes, okay, so two parts here to this question then so I'll start with it maybe the easier one

1017
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,980
So I feel that the mixed use

1018
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:29,760
Zoning

1019
01:21:30,820 --> 01:21:36,220
Districts but parcels are really like where the mixed use are there they're pretty spread out

1020
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:42,700
they're generally kind of smaller little tracks. I'm looking at the map here. And, and of course,

1021
01:21:43,380 --> 01:21:47,880
fortunately for us, the mayor lives right next to one, so it gives us the opportunity to examine

1022
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:53,380
a little deeper. So my question would be, were there, would you say that maybe commercials of

1023
01:21:53,380 --> 01:22:03,900
bourbon and mixed use have a lot of overlap and maybe that's one of the ones that I see shaking your head

1024
01:22:06,740 --> 01:22:20,280
I guess what I'm getting at is when we're looking at these individual, this is difficult, obviously, you have a very complex, we have a very complex town here.

1025
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:31,340
And so when I see mixed use here, right next to residential and then right next to residential historic and then next to our new I see.

1026
01:22:31,340 --> 01:22:38,700
I can understand that it, you know, it can create some maybe difficult situations like the mayor was alluding to.

1027
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:50,560
So my question would be, you know, would any of these parcels or mixed use, for instance, would they be up for reconsideration for a different zoning standard?

1028
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,560
And that was a perfect segue to the point I was about to make.

1029
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:57,920
Use the points.

1030
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,660
So everywhere you see mixed use is largely already resowned.

1031
01:23:03,660 --> 01:23:06,220
So that means that entitlement, which was approved,

1032
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:08,600
supersedes what we're talking about here.

1033
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:11,680
And if they want to change to come into the new mixed use district,

1034
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:12,720
it's a full rezoning.

1035
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:16,780
And this council will get a chance to look at it and have the public process.

1036
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:23,660
But if there are already mixed use, and I know there's probably a million examples throughout

1037
01:23:23,660 --> 01:23:28,260
this document, but in this case we're talking about hotel, hotel would be permitted

1038
01:23:28,260 --> 01:23:34,780
on mixed use currently with this, there's no rezoning already in place.

1039
01:23:37,030 --> 01:23:43,010
Well, this map is the rewritten map, correct, the interactive one that's on the website.

1040
01:23:43,410 --> 01:23:47,090
Correct, but this map does not supersede a previous rezoning entitlement.

1041
01:23:48,010 --> 01:23:48,530
Okay.

1042
01:23:48,990 --> 01:23:50,210
With Prophors on it?

1043
01:23:50,430 --> 01:23:50,610
Okay.

1044
01:23:51,050 --> 01:23:51,270
All right.

1045
01:23:51,490 --> 01:23:53,710
Well then that does help explain that a little bit.

1046
01:23:54,430 --> 01:23:54,530
Okay.

1047
01:23:54,810 --> 01:23:56,770
So second question really quick.

1048
01:23:56,850 --> 01:23:58,810
I know you've gone through limited use.

1049
01:23:59,430 --> 01:24:04,930
Can you give an example of when you're talking hotels and downtown limited use?

1050
01:24:05,450 --> 01:24:08,170
What specifically would that mean?

1051
01:24:08,410 --> 01:24:08,630
Sure.

1052
01:24:09,730 --> 01:24:11,690
Just to get a better feel for,

1053
01:24:12,270 --> 01:24:13,650
because if it's permanent,

1054
01:24:13,650 --> 01:24:17,510
They can, as long as they meet their heights and they're all their stuff. They're good

1055
01:24:17,510 --> 01:24:23,450
But limited means essentially that zoning ministry takes a look at it and says all the stuff needs a match up

1056
01:24:34,010 --> 01:24:35,790
There's my hour

1057
01:24:37,670 --> 01:24:39,350
Okay, hotel

1058
01:24:39,350 --> 01:24:46,050
Limited use downtown. So the first thing the administrator would do it would be look at the definition of hotel

1059
01:24:46,050 --> 01:24:48,410
Is it is it meet this test?

1060
01:24:48,410 --> 01:24:51,870
is it have guest room, sweets, with or without cooking,

1061
01:24:52,250 --> 01:24:56,430
logic for transient guests, may provide additional services.

1062
01:24:56,670 --> 01:24:57,710
We talked about that earlier.

1063
01:24:58,530 --> 01:24:59,970
And then the administrator...

1064
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,140
We look at the use specific standards.

1065
01:25:04,220 --> 01:25:29,140
If it's in the downtown district, no more than 50 rooms. So I need to see a floor plan. I need to see that you're not exceeding 50 transient rooms. And then I also need to see to make sure that the gross floor area of the hotel 60% of it must be minimum used for lodging. So you're not creating a hotel and making 75% of it a bar or a restaurant. And that's it.

1066
01:25:29,140 --> 01:25:34,000
So it meets these codified standards, it meets the definition of hotel, it can get approved

1067
01:25:34,940 --> 01:25:39,940
administratively, and it cuts down on that process, streamlined things, which is what we

1068
01:25:39,940 --> 01:25:43,860
were charged with doing in that council and doors project plan as well as in the town

1069
01:25:43,860 --> 01:25:44,280
plan.

1070
01:25:44,540 --> 01:25:45,340
If you can't out the public.

1071
01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:51,840
In this particular instance, there is no public meeting, and we feel like the public was

1072
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:58,520
engaged in that policy document, but again, if the council would like to have minor special

1073
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:04,700
exception approval we're not going to stand on any time of rock for that is that there's

1074
01:26:04,700 --> 01:26:09,820
no floor for the number of rooms for the hotel correct excuse me there's no floor for

1075
01:26:09,820 --> 01:26:17,960
the number of hotel rooms I mean or minimum sorry oh no theoretically you could have I and

1076
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:25,360
sound silly but a three room hotel good yeah I would you make it a practice and I understand that's

1077
01:26:33,610 --> 01:26:38,150
I got a couple of questions on this one then.

1078
01:26:39,250 --> 01:26:42,970
Obviously, I don't like the fact that the public is not involved.

1079
01:26:43,450 --> 01:26:44,890
You'll hear me say that more and more times.

1080
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:52,540
Does the 50 room hotel limit apply for establishment,

1081
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:55,240
for building, for parcel, for development?

1082
01:26:56,040 --> 01:26:58,800
What about multiple locations that are under the same management?

1083
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:00,980
at the same reservation system.

1084
01:27:01,480 --> 01:27:02,880
When you have one business putting everything

1085
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,180
under one, same umbrella at some point,

1086
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:09,700
it feels like we're, you know, are we still counting

1087
01:27:09,700 --> 01:27:10,860
that 50 rooms?

1088
01:27:13,650 --> 01:27:14,510
Give me the hard one.

1089
01:27:15,370 --> 01:27:18,590
So it depends on the application when it comes in.

1090
01:27:18,610 --> 01:27:20,390
We're gonna evaluate it based on the facts

1091
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:21,290
of that application.

1092
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:24,310
So there's no prohibition and crossing parcel lines

1093
01:27:24,310 --> 01:27:25,390
in the draft ordinance.

1094
01:27:26,350 --> 01:27:28,310
We don't monitor who's much,

1095
01:27:28,490 --> 01:27:29,890
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

1096
01:27:29,890 --> 01:27:30,930
That's fine.

1097
01:27:31,190 --> 01:27:31,310
Sorry.

1098
01:27:31,450 --> 01:27:31,670
Go ahead.

1099
01:27:31,730 --> 01:27:32,150
You were talking.

1100
01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:33,730
I didn't mean to interrupt you.

1101
01:27:34,190 --> 01:27:37,070
We don't monitor the management coming to be because they're meeting the underlying

1102
01:27:37,070 --> 01:27:42,590
use standards and not necessarily, um, advertisement or business license purposes.

1103
01:27:44,070 --> 01:27:52,870
How do you, uh, but are you still required to stay within the 50 room, 50 room requirement?

1104
01:27:53,650 --> 01:27:54,190
Absolutely.

1105
01:27:54,190 --> 01:28:05,510
But we've got, you know, so you've got a hotel with 39 rooms and three restaurants, five hotel rooms next door, a condos,

1106
01:28:05,990 --> 01:28:12,790
booking on the hotel sites, plus 20 rooms and number of condos on another location.

1107
01:28:15,130 --> 01:28:22,330
We've gone way above the 50 and we're, it's okay.

1108
01:28:22,330 --> 01:28:29,290
So each of those locations, if they're subject to one zoning permit, because we don't discriminate

1109
01:28:29,290 --> 01:28:36,750
by parcel, then we air it in approving that, which we wouldn't have because it surpasses

1110
01:28:36,750 --> 01:28:37,910
the 50 threshold.

1111
01:28:39,010 --> 01:28:44,150
If it's less than that cumulatively, again, each property, if there were separate applications,

1112
01:28:44,970 --> 01:28:49,550
each property is subject, each application is subject to the underlying use standards.

1113
01:28:51,020 --> 01:29:01,000
The ordinance does not, the, the, the land use regulations does not monitor or require a certain qualification and the management of that facility.

1114
01:29:07,150 --> 01:29:07,270
So

1115
01:29:09,480 --> 01:29:27,140
I, I, obviously I have issues with this, but I will, I, I think it, we've got, we've got to requirement this is 50 rooms and, and I don't, I don't think that this is going to help us to maintain that it be 50 rooms.

1116
01:29:27,140 --> 01:29:37,400
So that it won't extend beyond the 50 rooms with additional usage and sharing amenities kind of thing.

1117
01:29:38,220 --> 01:29:39,460
So that's my concern.

1118
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:43,560
Anyone else have anything at this point?

1119
01:29:46,190 --> 01:29:48,410
I guess we have to, we voted on the bed breakfast.

1120
01:29:50,730 --> 01:29:52,370
Eight, remind me again.

1121
01:29:53,250 --> 01:29:53,650
Hotel.

1122
01:29:54,570 --> 01:29:56,090
What is the question on the hotel?

1123
01:29:56,810 --> 01:29:59,670
So it sounds like the majority of the council would like to see.

1124
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,740
Oh, tell us a minor special exception in the downtown.

1125
01:30:02,940 --> 01:30:03,640
What's there?

1126
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:05,580
Let's see if that's actually true.

1127
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:07,980
Are there four people that want to see hotels?

1128
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,760
Minor special exceptions in the downtown?

1129
01:30:12,980 --> 01:30:14,200
Is that what you were saying?

1130
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:15,940
Yes. Got it.

1131
01:30:17,340 --> 01:30:18,540
And then, how about the other district?

1132
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:24,540
So, we're proposing hotel become a permitted use in mixed use, M.U.

1133
01:30:25,740 --> 01:30:27,400
and innovation center, I.C.

1134
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:29,660
Councillor O'Key with that?

1135
01:30:29,660 --> 01:30:30,100
Yes.

1136
01:30:30,300 --> 01:30:31,320
Councillor O'Key with that, yes.

1137
01:30:31,460 --> 01:30:32,140
One more question.

1138
01:30:32,460 --> 01:30:39,700
You mentioned, as one of the potential areas, the old Wal-Mart shopping center,

1139
01:30:40,260 --> 01:30:41,640
Royal, that site there.

1140
01:30:44,420 --> 01:30:51,600
If that came in, that has no proposal on it now, other than the individual businesses

1141
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:55,740
under there, plus the restaurant or whatever it was we approved and office building.

1142
01:30:55,740 --> 01:31:04,080
while back. But there's no mixed use application for that site now. And if I understood what you said,

1143
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:12,160
if it comes in with a new application, they're going to have to seek, let me rephrase it.

1144
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:18,060
If that's an MU, then when they come in with an application, whatever they come in with,

1145
01:31:18,060 --> 01:31:26,640
long as it meets the MU requirements, then they're okay. They're not okay. Because there's

1146
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:33,460
existing entitlement CDP. So they, they, they would. So there would be oversight. It's

1147
01:31:33,460 --> 01:31:41,240
the point in a site like that. Correct. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Can I ask one follow to that? I'm

1148
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:47,120
so sorry. Yes. Your professional opinion don't have to look it up. Most of the, this, I'm

1149
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:51,660
to make statement. Most of the town probably has these

1150
01:31:51,660 --> 01:31:56,280
profit previously profit or rezoning, so they're all, most of the

1151
01:31:56,280 --> 01:31:58,820
properties we're talking about mixed use or anything is going to

1152
01:31:58,820 --> 01:32:00,080
have to come in front of council.

1153
01:32:01,100 --> 01:32:05,280
Yeah, I think staff shared a map a while ago, 75% of the town is

1154
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:06,800
encumbered by a profit of rezoning.

1155
01:32:10,580 --> 01:32:11,840
Didn't let's go home now.

1156
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:18,180
Okay, the last question mayor was just, are we comfortable eliminating

1157
01:32:18,180 --> 01:32:22,860
commercial in since we increased that to 40 anyways. It's kind of functioning like a hotel.

1158
01:32:26,460 --> 01:32:29,980
Commercial facility for housing and feeding the transient guests and a building contained

1159
01:32:29,980 --> 01:32:36,380
no more than 15 guest rooms. This is commercial. This was previous. Okay.

1160
01:32:40,950 --> 01:32:42,170
I don't know. Do we end up

1161
01:32:42,170 --> 01:32:46,450
limiting ourselves? That's at 40, 40 rooms.

1162
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:53,060
It's 40. This is the commercial end.

1163
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:06,020
I think we just, I think we increase the oversight on the downtown for hotels, I think we

1164
01:33:06,020 --> 01:33:10,520
just eliminated to keep the zoning ordinance a little clearer.

1165
01:33:11,080 --> 01:33:14,980
It helps us with administration as well.

1166
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:16,940
I was going to say something snarky, but I won't.

1167
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:23,940
All right, there are four people that are okay with limiting commercial in.

1168
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:25,520
Great, thank you.

1169
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:28,620
Just want to check on timing, would you like to proceed?

1170
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:32,140
I have to ask because we have, we've gone beyond the hour.

1171
01:33:33,860 --> 01:33:35,180
There's some more.

1172
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:39,120
Actually, there's quite a bit more.

1173
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:42,260
Are we okay going in an additional hour or two?

1174
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:45,190
Okay.

1175
01:33:45,810 --> 01:33:46,370
Okay.

1176
01:33:46,630 --> 01:33:47,630
Thank you.

1177
01:33:50,350 --> 01:33:50,510
All right.

1178
01:33:50,650 --> 01:33:51,530
Places of assembly.

1179
01:33:52,730 --> 01:33:55,190
Councilmember Willt wanted us to look a little bit more.

1180
01:33:55,390 --> 01:33:56,170
Excuse me there.

1181
01:33:56,250 --> 01:33:56,670
Yes, sir.

1182
01:33:56,670 --> 01:33:57,050
Just a backup.

1183
01:33:57,550 --> 01:33:59,530
We resolve that hotel question.

1184
01:34:00,550 --> 01:34:01,210
Or is that?

1185
01:34:01,270 --> 01:34:01,910
Which one?

1186
01:34:02,330 --> 01:34:03,850
The one about the hotel category.

1187
01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:06,010
In

1188
01:34:08,030 --> 01:34:09,810
the bottom, the bottom chart.

1189
01:34:10,450 --> 01:34:11,230
The proposed changes.

1190
01:34:14,190 --> 01:34:18,930
We talked about downtown, we didn't talk about the IRME or I see, I believe, do we?

1191
01:34:18,930 --> 01:34:23,990
We did not, is that something you would like to look at?

1192
01:34:27,300 --> 01:34:39,440
We took it out of the IR, which is the research area, and we made it permitted in the mixed use in the IC.

1193
01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:41,880
Yeah, that's the proposal.

1194
01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:43,020
Yes, sir.

1195
01:34:43,140 --> 01:34:44,780
I didn't air of council.

1196
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:46,700
Agreed with that.

1197
01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:49,500
I have four people that are in favor of that, is every two on one.

1198
01:34:49,780 --> 01:34:49,840
Yes.

1199
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:52,200
Are there four people that are in favor of that?

1200
01:34:53,340 --> 01:34:54,580
Thank you.

1201
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:55,840
Thank you.

1202
01:34:56,860 --> 01:34:57,100
Okay.

1203
01:34:57,120 --> 01:34:57,880
Places of Assembly.

1204
01:34:58,140 --> 01:34:59,440
So council number will ask.

1205
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:12,860
And the Council to look a little bit more at places where folks gather and congregate to ensure that we have the appropriate level of review and permissibility in the table.

1206
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:24,960
So what you see on the top table is the residential districts, places of worship or public assembly are special exceptions across the board at any residential district.

1207
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:28,600
So that doesn't sure plan and commission and council review.

1208
01:35:29,700 --> 01:35:36,700
The bottom is your non-residential and mixed use table and places of worship are limited

1209
01:35:36,700 --> 01:35:45,020
uses in commercial neighborhood, commercial suburban, downtown, innovation center, medical

1210
01:35:45,020 --> 01:35:51,380
center, government center, special exception in mixed use district and removed in the industrial

1211
01:35:51,380 --> 01:36:04,240
research park district. So those would need to meet the criteria in 10.3H as limited uses and I can navigate there just to illustrate what we're talking about.

1212
01:36:16,570 --> 01:36:17,810
There we go.

1213
01:36:18,330 --> 01:36:19,830
So 10.3H.

1214
01:36:20,650 --> 01:36:27,230
These are the use standards they would have to meet in order to be reviewed and approved as limited use.

1215
01:36:27,230 --> 01:36:30,130
So apply with applicable noise standards,

1216
01:36:30,950 --> 01:36:34,410
have a traffic management plan, maximum number of seats

1217
01:36:34,410 --> 01:36:36,470
and occupancy if it's in residential,

1218
01:36:37,070 --> 01:36:38,790
or a commercial neighborhood district,

1219
01:36:39,010 --> 01:36:42,090
no more than 1,500, if it's in mixed use

1220
01:36:42,090 --> 01:36:45,010
and non-residential, no more than 5,500.

1221
01:36:45,850 --> 01:36:47,350
If it's an industrial district,

1222
01:36:48,250 --> 01:36:52,150
it has to be located in an office or industrial complex.

1223
01:36:52,430 --> 01:36:54,290
It has to have the vehicular access,

1224
01:36:54,290 --> 01:36:59,470
any accessory dorms must be located in a conjunction with or on the same or

1225
01:36:59,470 --> 01:37:04,350
a continuous lot, accessory bank with facilities may be provided in an

1226
01:37:04,350 --> 01:37:09,250
accessory education facilities must comply with all standards for schools. So

1227
01:37:09,250 --> 01:37:15,430
a pretty significant list there again to mitigate impacts, keep things

1228
01:37:15,430 --> 01:37:23,350
compatible. So staff comfortable with the proposal as is, which is to keep the

1229
01:37:23,350 --> 01:37:29,790
place of worship use as you get to it.

1230
01:37:31,570 --> 01:37:36,190
Special exception in the residential districts and a limited use that has to meet those standards

1231
01:37:36,190 --> 01:37:37,010
I just read.

1232
01:37:37,690 --> 01:37:41,630
In the majority of the non-residential mixed use districts with the exception of the mixed

1233
01:37:41,630 --> 01:37:42,710
use district itself.

1234
01:37:45,560 --> 01:38:01,040
Don't we have some issues with how's it's a foreshap going into the mixed use, is that why you have it as a special exception?

1235
01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:01,880
Correct.

1236
01:38:04,300 --> 01:38:06,300
The village of Leedsbury comes to mind in particular.

1237
01:38:07,900 --> 01:38:08,780
All right.

1238
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:12,520
Okay.

1239
01:38:12,660 --> 01:38:13,880
Anybody have any questions, Mr. Will?

1240
01:38:15,220 --> 01:38:18,880
Thank you, James Wing, we spoke about this earlier.

1241
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,540
Our discussion wasn't limited to places of worship.

1242
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:29,540
It was about places of assembly, commercial private, anything.

1243
01:38:31,140 --> 01:38:32,640
What happened to the rest of that discussion?

1244
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:36,020
This is an or so place of worship or public assembly.

1245
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:45,040
I see, okay, so it's just, okay, or I get.

1246
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:50,560
So, then the specific elements, because we were talking about a variety of places,

1247
01:38:51,980 --> 01:38:58,020
conference centers, private schools, sports centers, or those all categorized

1248
01:38:58,020 --> 01:38:59,380
under as places of assembly.

1249
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:01,040
Good question.

1250
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,040
Let's take a look at that.

1251
01:39:03,660 --> 01:39:04,500
Use category.

1252
01:39:04,900 --> 01:39:10,160
When the nature of the discussion was in places which are

1253
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:16,960
design for large groups of people that congregate, where there could be noise issues,

1254
01:39:18,860 --> 01:39:27,660
amplified noise, a music, traffic, parking, congestion that at least go through some sort of

1255
01:39:27,660 --> 01:39:30,300
public input process, which we admire special exception.

1256
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:36,260
The use category for a place of worship or

1257
01:39:36,260 --> 01:39:41,020
public assembly is uses of a public nonprofit or charitable nature providing worship or assembly

1258
01:39:41,020 --> 01:39:43,560
to the general public on a regular basis,

1259
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:46,220
club or lodge, place of assembly, place of worship,

1260
01:39:46,740 --> 01:39:50,440
could also have accessory uses such as schools,

1261
01:39:50,780 --> 01:39:53,980
offices, classrooms, recreational facilities, et cetera.

1262
01:39:55,980 --> 01:39:57,100
So you're exactly right, sir.

1263
01:39:57,180 --> 01:39:59,980
The crux of the question was, do we want to...

1264
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:10,720
Change this, which is proposed now as limited in those districts to a minor special exception to ensure some oversight.

1265
01:40:12,900 --> 01:40:21,220
That was the just of my request that I think the public's input is valuable in cases like these.

1266
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:26,220
That's why I wanted these to go through a minor special tool to give that opportunity to the public.

1267
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:46,760
I have a question, a legal question about this, so are we, if we put a minor special exception

1268
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:53,500
on here, are we limiting, are we putting more of a burden on places of worship or public

1269
01:40:53,500 --> 01:41:01,480
assembly where we're not putting as much burden on something else that we could get in trouble for.

1270
01:41:01,500 --> 01:41:02,840
Would you like to answer that question?

1271
01:41:03,340 --> 01:41:04,580
I would be happy to try.

1272
01:41:09,210 --> 01:41:14,010
I don't know that it's that the status of

1273
01:41:16,860 --> 01:41:24,860
a structure with a religious use from a land use perspective as any special protections.

1274
01:41:24,860 --> 01:41:32,940
we are entitled to look at impacts, whether it's religious, whether it's secular, whether

1275
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:40,480
it's something else. From a use perspective, there are other types of protections

1276
01:41:40,480 --> 01:41:48,820
that religious institutions get in terms of what can be said in other things, tax status,

1277
01:41:49,140 --> 01:41:52,940
et cetera. But from a use perspective, which we're talking about tonight,

1278
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:03,140
So whatever your judgment is, in terms of what are the uses we're going to look at, what level

1279
01:42:03,140 --> 01:42:11,940
of public review do you want, but you are legally entitled to assess the use, whether it's a religious or a secular use.

1280
01:42:13,180 --> 01:42:14,420
Okay, impacts of use.

1281
01:42:14,860 --> 01:42:22,640
So if we just for example, if we allowed movie theaters to come in, permit it in every, every district.

1282
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:27,740
would we be signalling out or could someone argue we're signalling out places of

1283
01:42:27,740 --> 01:42:28,860
our ship?

1284
01:42:29,440 --> 01:42:33,340
Someone could argue that there's inconsistency in your decision making but ultimately

1285
01:42:36,070 --> 01:42:42,390
as long as your zoning characterization and the conditions you put on the

1286
01:42:42,390 --> 01:42:46,530
use is based upon impacts, that's a permissible zoning.

1287
01:42:48,350 --> 01:42:49,290
Thank you.

1288
01:42:55,630 --> 01:43:07,230
So are there four people that would like to see the public places of worship or public assembly become minor special exceptions?

1289
01:43:07,930 --> 01:43:09,150
Are there four people that would like that?

1290
01:43:11,650 --> 01:43:12,730
Okay, that passes.

1291
01:43:13,390 --> 01:43:20,290
Okay, if I could just confirm would you like to keep the special exception in MU or just make it in across the board?

1292
01:43:24,290 --> 01:43:27,110
You wouldn't want to fight this up, Mr. Well, what was your intention?

1293
01:43:27,570 --> 01:43:28,830
That was across the board.

1294
01:43:28,990 --> 01:43:31,990
Awesome board. Okay. Thank you.

1295
01:43:32,470 --> 01:43:34,110
All right.

1296
01:43:35,150 --> 01:43:35,830
All right.

1297
01:43:37,470 --> 01:43:40,430
The last specific topic that was identified

1298
01:43:40,430 --> 01:43:45,290
comes from the vice mayor and that was a discussion about uses with drive-throughs.

1299
01:43:48,210 --> 01:43:51,970
So, there's three types of uses with drive-throughs.

1300
01:43:51,970 --> 01:43:57,330
going to circle them because this is a lot to look at here. I'm going to use blue. So you've

1301
01:43:57,330 --> 01:44:04,310
got restaurant with drive through right there. Then the next one down we're going to

1302
01:44:04,310 --> 01:44:11,590
go to green. You got restaurant without drive through and then you got a bank with drive

1303
01:44:11,590 --> 01:44:21,490
through and then finally you've got pharmacy with drive through. And so what we've currently

1304
01:44:21,490 --> 01:44:29,430
proposed is if it's a drive-through restaurant, it's a limited use in suburban commercial,

1305
01:44:30,150 --> 01:44:37,630
not a special exception anymore, and it is no longer allowed in mixed use districts, and

1306
01:44:37,630 --> 01:44:45,090
it is a special exception in innovation center. Of course, if it's without drive-through, that

1307
01:44:45,090 --> 01:44:50,630
removes the primary thing that's creating that impact, so there is more permissibility

1308
01:44:50,630 --> 01:44:59,030
with that one. Same holds true for bank with drive-through. It's added as a limited use in

1309
01:44:59,030 --> 01:44:59,970
your commercial neighbor.

1310
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:28,600
Hudzoni District for call, that's a new district. It's been to serve the neighborhood. It's changed to a limited use in commercial suburban, remove, in mixed use and then a special exception in D.T. not a lot of the innovation center, but never was before. And then pharmacy with drive through minor special exception in the CN, limited in CS and limited in ICNMC.

1311
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:36,060
And so the justification for these changes is, you know, the intent of the mixed use zoning

1312
01:45:36,060 --> 01:45:44,600
district is pedestrian oriented, walkable uses that activate that amenities driven core.

1313
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:51,960
And when you think about pedestrian oriented, walkable, active, a drive-through restaurant

1314
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:55,020
is not implementing that town plan vision.

1315
01:45:55,020 --> 01:45:58,360
and that is why we've removed it from the next use district.

1316
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:06,380
So with that, we'd just like to check in with the council to see if you agree with

1317
01:46:06,380 --> 01:46:10,340
how we have proposed the permissibility for these different uses with drivers.

1318
01:46:12,720 --> 01:46:14,000
I have any questions at this point.

1319
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:18,420
I was going to ask about the MU, why you decided not to allow it there.

1320
01:46:25,850 --> 01:46:32,670
I was so surprised that the bank, the bank would drive through facility is not allowed in the MU.

1321
01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:39,980
Again, if that's auto-dominated use, basically, if you got the drive through, you got the

1322
01:46:39,980 --> 01:46:44,840
three stacking lanes, you've got queuing, you've got cars idling, then it does not implement

1323
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:48,820
that town plan policy for walkable mixed use center.

1324
01:46:50,420 --> 01:46:56,440
And we felt there's adequate area throughout the town and your commercial suburban and

1325
01:46:56,440 --> 01:46:58,180
other places that it is allowed.

1326
01:46:58,180 --> 01:46:59,060
than

1327
01:47:05,330 --> 01:47:10,430
the pharmacy, it's not allowed in a number of districts.

1328
01:47:10,770 --> 01:47:14,530
Yeah, no change is there, that's pretty much carrying forward what you have, currently.

1329
01:47:15,930 --> 01:47:16,690
And Mr. Cummings?

1330
01:47:17,230 --> 01:47:20,690
Just had a question on the downtown district.

1331
01:47:22,110 --> 01:47:30,670
I want to make sure the bank with drive-through is permitted with special exception in the downtown.

1332
01:47:30,890 --> 01:47:31,710
Am I reading that correctly?

1333
01:47:32,210 --> 01:47:32,490
Correct.

1334
01:47:32,490 --> 01:47:34,670
That's a carryover from the existing ordinance.

1335
01:47:37,470 --> 01:47:39,970
I don't know if there's others on Council

1336
01:47:39,970 --> 01:47:43,710
that would support eliminating that as a altogether

1337
01:47:43,710 --> 01:47:45,010
in the downtown district.

1338
01:47:45,390 --> 01:47:48,710
One, I don't think banks would thrive through this or here

1339
01:47:48,710 --> 01:47:49,410
for the future.

1340
01:47:50,270 --> 01:47:52,850
But also I think in our downtown, we have limited,

1341
01:47:54,070 --> 01:47:55,810
just like what you mentioned in the mixed use,

1342
01:47:55,910 --> 01:47:58,530
we want to make the downtown a focus on walkability,

1343
01:47:58,790 --> 01:48:02,370
focus on pedestrian, eliminating that.

1344
01:48:02,370 --> 01:48:08,790
that you even even with special exception for banks in the downtown I would I would hope to

1345
01:48:08,790 --> 01:48:16,530
gardener some support for them. Well except except there are some banks in the downtown that

1346
01:48:16,530 --> 01:48:25,970
it's not a it's a walk-up ATM so that wouldn't count as a drive drive through facility.

1347
01:48:26,350 --> 01:48:30,490
No. Okay. I don't have a problem with that.

1348
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:39,320
Do we have four people that would support

1349
01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:45,570
Mr. Cummings idea of, what do you ask him to do?

1350
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:48,490
So just eliminate the use of the back to drive through in the downstairs.

1351
01:48:48,610 --> 01:48:49,930
Okay, eliminate it all together.

1352
01:48:50,430 --> 01:48:52,810
Okay, to we have four people that would be willing to do that.

1353
01:48:53,350 --> 01:48:53,650
All right,

1354
01:48:59,130 --> 01:49:01,610
and you go to else have any issues with the rest of it.

1355
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:08,620
Do you, so you're okay on that on the rest of it?

1356
01:49:08,740 --> 01:49:09,720
Yeah, okay.

1357
01:49:12,860 --> 01:49:14,100
And you have a question?

1358
01:49:14,100 --> 01:49:20,480
You just have one quick question, the Apple Federal Credit Union that's going out on market.

1359
01:49:20,540 --> 01:49:21,920
That's not downtown, right?

1360
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:30,340
Excellent work.

1361
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:33,400
We made it through the use tables and the...

1362
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:33,820
Not done yet.

1363
01:49:33,980 --> 01:49:38,320
The specific topics that were identified, but at this time we'd like to check in, are there

1364
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:42,640
any other areas you'd like to look at and I'm going to transition over to the attachment

1365
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:45,220
so I can scroll around in here real quick.

1366
01:49:46,420 --> 01:49:49,800
Yeah, there is a couple that I'd like to talk about.

1367
01:49:49,800 --> 01:49:58,500
And one of the first ones is, and this may seem inconsequential, but to a number of people it is not.

1368
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:05,800
Only on Mount Zion, there's two cemeteries.

1369
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:08,960
We

1370
01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:34,860
have two cemeteries. One is the Mount Zion cemeterie that is predominantly white and the other one is the Mount Zion cemeterie that's predominantly black.

1371
01:50:39,140 --> 01:50:51,480
So, one of them is known medical MC, and it's only one thousands of a percent covered by that.

1372
01:50:51,680 --> 01:51:00,660
It's next to the hospital, and the other ones are there in the historic residential district.

1373
01:51:01,980 --> 01:51:11,220
And my concern is the difference, does it, what's the implication of having the difference

1374
01:51:12,080 --> 01:51:16,220
when they're both cemeteries, and they're both right across close to each other?

1375
01:51:18,060 --> 01:51:23,440
And can we, I don't want to see the hospital come and dig up the cemetery and move everybody.

1376
01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:28,080
We want to protect the black cemeteries, much as we want to protect the white cemeterie.

1377
01:51:29,780 --> 01:51:43,760
You can remember the issue that we have with the right off of work street, the three houses that were built and the spillover.

1378
01:51:44,440 --> 01:51:53,540
We relied on a lot of state code requirements for cemeteries to protect those grave sites.

1379
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:55,960
I think there were

1380
01:51:59,610 --> 01:52:03,410
very small percentage of the loss that they actually found.

1381
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:22,120
It was hard to discern whether they were actually complete or partial, but we would rely mostly on those regulations to deal with removals of existing cemeteries.

1382
01:52:26,310 --> 01:52:35,390
Maybe I'm trying to be overly sensitive here, but it concerns me that, is it necessary

1383
01:52:35,390 --> 01:52:40,310
that we have, I mean, since their, their cemeteries can't, they all have the same zoning.

1384
01:52:46,310 --> 01:52:53,250
The first blush for the mapping was just looking at existing districts, and then slotting

1385
01:52:53,250 --> 01:52:59,770
them into similar districts, you know, did we miss looking at those existing use of the property,

1386
01:52:59,770 --> 01:53:05,310
maybe they would be existing or conforming uses or they would be existing conforming uses.

1387
01:53:07,350 --> 01:53:12,590
So, they wouldn't be necessarily removed unless done so by the property owner.

1388
01:53:13,610 --> 01:53:19,110
So, the zoning net wouldn't necessarily protect it other than identifying whether or not

1389
01:53:19,110 --> 01:53:21,030
that was an acceptable use on the property.

1390
01:53:24,440 --> 01:53:27,680
Do we need extra protections other than just the designated land use?

1391
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:34,300
I'm just pointing out that we have a black cemetery that has a different zoning than the other

1392
01:53:34,300 --> 01:53:41,260
cemeteries, and they're right beside each other, and so that was pointed out to me as

1393
01:53:41,260 --> 01:53:41,700
a concern.

1394
01:53:42,180 --> 01:53:46,340
We can absolutely go back and look at the mapping for you, but it's not a problem, but it was

1395
01:53:46,340 --> 01:53:46,960
not intentional.

1396
01:53:46,960 --> 01:54:03,120
Okay, and okay, now into, there's a number of these that have already been taken care of, but on page 27 of you report to us.

1397
01:54:05,680 --> 01:54:10,000
If you want one moment, just a track with you here.

1398
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:10,840
Okay.

1399
01:54:16,480 --> 01:54:19,740
I've got 27 as the future dive list.

1400
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:22,420
All right.

1401
01:54:22,700 --> 01:54:24,220
And it's halfway down.

1402
01:54:24,660 --> 01:54:29,500
And it says modify the use table to maximize administrative handling of my minor manners.

1403
01:54:30,660 --> 01:54:32,540
What constitutes minor?

1404
01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:39,240
It's one of those big words to do.

1405
01:54:39,280 --> 01:54:42,780
Modify the use table to maximize administrative handling of minor matters.

1406
01:54:42,780 --> 01:54:44,860
So, this one came from the vice mayor.

1407
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:58,100
I think he wanted to just make sure we were looking at it as in a lens of where it makes sense to change things to the L or the P rather than the M or the S.

1408
01:54:58,280 --> 01:54:59,860
Is that about right, vice mayor?

1409
01:55:01,200 --> 01:55:17,520
Oh, no problem? Oh, hi, attention. So this was one of the comments from that email you sent to us, and that the general tone was, take a look at the use table to see if there's opportunity to streamline and create administrative versus legislative review. Yes, yes.

1410
01:55:18,620 --> 01:55:22,200
We'll go back to minor. Is that a term within that?

1411
01:55:23,180 --> 01:55:29,480
In this case, minor went administrative. So that might be the wrong word choice there.

1412
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:32,480
And the rest of the, we have,

1413
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:41,260
okay, so after this, the rest of my questions kind of are November 9th.

1414
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:44,960
So I'll hold them till November 9th.

1415
01:55:45,180 --> 01:55:46,360
Okay, I mean December 9th.

1416
01:55:46,700 --> 01:55:47,500
Is it November 9th?

1417
01:55:47,520 --> 01:55:49,040
Yes, November 9th, yes.

1418
01:55:49,120 --> 01:55:49,320
Yes.

1419
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:50,340
It's getting later.

1420
01:55:50,780 --> 01:55:52,460
Okay, so I'll hold those.

1421
01:55:53,160 --> 01:55:56,820
Since that isn't on the agenda for right now.

1422
01:55:56,820 --> 01:56:00,500
And then you answer these questions.

1423
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:02,680
So I'm good at this point.

1424
01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:05,960
So the only thing I want, the last thing that I would ask,

1425
01:56:06,640 --> 01:56:09,480
is I'm looking for my paper that had it,

1426
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:14,000
is that the question I asked you before about the protections

1427
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:14,740
for the,

1428
01:56:17,410 --> 01:56:20,110
not that I have a lot of papers here,

1429
01:56:20,730 --> 01:56:22,970
for the downtown by the making the changes.

1430
01:56:23,770 --> 01:56:24,970
For the B&B?

1431
01:56:25,470 --> 01:56:28,470
Yeah, that those are somewhere else.

1432
01:56:28,470 --> 01:56:33,910
and that those residences are protected very similar to what they were previously.

1433
01:56:34,530 --> 01:56:36,410
We'll double check if they're not covered elsewhere.

1434
01:56:36,670 --> 01:56:37,530
We'll add them back in.

1435
01:56:37,630 --> 01:56:38,290
Thank you.

1436
01:56:39,190 --> 01:56:40,030
Anyone else have anything?

1437
01:56:40,890 --> 01:56:42,910
There's a few other topics for tonight.

1438
01:56:43,850 --> 01:56:43,870
Okay.

1439
01:56:43,910 --> 01:56:45,150
So, term residential rentals.

1440
01:56:45,270 --> 01:56:47,950
Would you like to continue with that?

1441
01:56:48,890 --> 01:56:49,590
Is that for tonight?

1442
01:56:52,150 --> 01:56:52,850
I guess so.

1443
01:56:53,010 --> 01:56:53,250
Okay.

1444
01:56:54,130 --> 01:56:56,430
I mean, does everybody want to go keep going on?

1445
01:56:58,270 --> 01:57:04,270
Okay, so Council Member Steinberg and Krukowski asked to take another look at short-term residential rentals.

1446
01:57:05,290 --> 01:57:12,710
Recall that this use and the use standards were recently adopted by the Council,

1447
01:57:12,710 --> 01:57:16,770
I believe it was back in about 2024 if my memory serves me correctly.

1448
01:57:17,910 --> 01:57:27,350
And at that time, the commission recommended some things and not all of those items stayed.

1449
01:57:27,350 --> 01:57:29,930
and we've added them back into the draft.

1450
01:57:29,970 --> 01:57:31,730
So I'll go over what that means.

1451
01:57:33,630 --> 01:57:37,490
So the draft requires a registration of the short-term

1452
01:57:37,490 --> 01:57:39,590
residential rentals per town code.

1453
01:57:39,930 --> 01:57:41,370
That's a change from your existing.

1454
01:57:41,410 --> 01:57:44,350
The existing says you just have to get a home occupation permit.

1455
01:57:44,670 --> 01:57:47,370
So we've tightened that up and moved to the town code

1456
01:57:47,370 --> 01:57:49,350
and keeping with state code.

1457
01:57:49,610 --> 01:57:51,770
So our town attorney's office felt like that was

1458
01:57:51,770 --> 01:57:54,750
a better foolproof plan for handling the registration

1459
01:57:54,750 --> 01:57:55,810
of these things.

1460
01:57:55,810 --> 01:58:05,790
Give that to me again. Sure. We're going to rely on the state to do it. Yeah, so the existing ordinance, the registration was the vehicle was a home occupation permit

1461
01:58:06,410 --> 01:58:11,250
which was being, you know, policed by us in the community development department.

1462
01:58:11,890 --> 01:58:17,850
And then there was some new state code that came out around these short term residential rentals, and especially on the registration piece.

1463
01:58:19,050 --> 01:58:24,350
And so for more efficient government administration, our town attorney office thought,

1464
01:58:24,350 --> 01:58:32,730
Let's put the registration requirement in the town code, it doesn't really have that much to do with the zoning, it's more about the business licensing and just refer over to that.

1465
01:58:33,050 --> 01:58:34,670
And so that's what we've done in this draft.

1466
01:58:35,010 --> 01:58:36,710
Will the state collect the money?

1467
01:58:37,170 --> 01:58:37,430
There's the state.

1468
01:58:37,730 --> 01:58:41,170
No, the local authority still collects the TOT.

1469
01:58:43,230 --> 01:58:43,250
Okay.

1470
01:58:44,190 --> 01:58:50,570
There's a handful of operational occupancy parking and appearance standards that were in that original

1471
01:58:52,810 --> 01:58:53,570
2024,

1472
01:58:57,150 --> 01:59:01,670
sorry, 2022 ordinance that you all adopted and those remained.

1473
01:59:02,950 --> 01:59:07,790
The one thing that was added back in was the residency requirement.

1474
01:59:08,910 --> 01:59:14,250
Previously in 2022 staff and commission were recommending a residency requirement.

1475
01:59:14,890 --> 01:59:20,430
The council at that time voted not included but we still feel like that is a very important

1476
01:59:20,430 --> 01:59:25,810
regulation so we've added it back in here and essentially what that is is it

1477
01:59:25,810 --> 01:59:30,530
requires the operator of the short-term residential rental to reside

1478
01:59:30,530 --> 01:59:35,890
at that location for a minimum of 185 days out of the year.

1479
01:59:36,910 --> 01:59:38,250
And why do we feel like that is important?

1480
01:59:38,770 --> 01:59:44,130
We feel like that helps with the pride of ownership and ensures consistent

1481
01:59:44,130 --> 01:59:47,130
upkeep of the short-term residential rental in the neighborhood.

1482
01:59:47,130 --> 01:59:50,910
So that's added back in in the draft.

1483
01:59:52,930 --> 01:59:59,730
The other item that the Planning Commission added is that the short-term residential rental

1484
02:00:00,620 --> 02:00:08,620
The property can only be used as a short term rental for a max of 90 days per year. So that's new.

1485
02:00:09,340 --> 02:00:15,380
All right. Now there's no limitation. And that was more of a commission recommendation. That was included.

1486
02:00:16,520 --> 02:00:28,020
And then the other aspects that remain the same from what's existing is one short term rental per parcel, maximum of six lodgers for less than 30 days.

1487
02:00:28,020 --> 02:00:32,440
and it remained a limited accessory residential use.

1488
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:37,780
It is a limited use, which is administrative

1489
02:00:37,780 --> 02:00:39,420
in all residential districts.

1490
02:00:39,780 --> 02:00:41,680
The mixed use district, the downtown district,

1491
02:00:41,900 --> 02:00:45,280
and most of your crescent district sub districts.

1492
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:49,280
I don't see here.

1493
02:00:49,900 --> 02:00:55,880
Is there any way that we could control the amount,

1494
02:00:55,880 --> 02:01:02,900
the number of short-term residential rentals in a particular neighborhood or area?

1495
02:01:04,160 --> 02:01:10,740
That. We don't have, and I'm not sure we can. Glad to do that. There's no specific line

1496
02:01:10,740 --> 02:01:16,900
which to rely on other than how do we police first come first? I don't know if you want to add

1497
02:01:16,900 --> 02:01:23,480
anything else, Mr. Attorney, but that was the general just. If I may have had a Mary, that's really

1498
02:01:23,480 --> 02:01:26,440
been a challenge, as we've talked through this.

1499
02:01:28,980 --> 02:01:32,840
I think the phrase that Mike uses is the appropriate one.

1500
02:01:36,340 --> 02:01:40,520
There's an inequity to sort of a first come first served.

1501
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:48,560
When you have a cap like that, what we're regulating is use and impact.

1502
02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:51,620
If the use is the use,

1503
02:01:54,020 --> 02:01:57,820
then within that zone, it should be

1504
02:01:57,820 --> 02:02:04,960
allowed. That's kind of where we're at. There's not. I'm unfamiliar with anybody who any

1505
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:09,700
jurisdiction with Virginia who's been successful in finding a new mayor cap like that.

1506
02:02:11,310 --> 02:02:15,310
It seems like the equity should go towards the people that live there. At that point,

1507
02:02:15,630 --> 02:02:21,390
the impact of the neighborhood can be pretty dramatic when you have 15 houses and nine of them

1508
02:02:21,390 --> 02:02:27,030
are Airbnb's. It seems like a shame that we can't do something to help

1509
02:02:28,110 --> 02:02:33,090
that aspect of it. Mr. Kerkowski.

1510
02:02:34,550 --> 02:02:43,950
Thank you, ma'am. So my question is in relation to, there seems to be a delta between these

1511
02:02:43,950 --> 02:02:47,330
days. Obviously, it doesn't add up to 365.

1512
02:02:49,370 --> 02:02:51,830
So I'm wondering if it was just the left hand

1513
02:02:51,830 --> 02:02:58,410
wasn't talking the right hand. So we have minimum of 185 days a year, the owner of the residents

1514
02:02:58,410 --> 02:03:04,570
must live there. And we have no way to verify they live there, really, right?

1515
02:03:06,410 --> 02:03:23,470
No, we do. We have it as part of our criteria. Like the properties inspected to say that they're

1516
02:03:23,470 --> 02:03:25,890
home, Florida, and they own a home here.

1517
02:03:26,730 --> 02:03:32,890
How do you determine that they are living here and not in Florida during the 185 days?

1518
02:03:33,790 --> 02:03:37,250
We'd call up that section of the ordinance, we can look together.

1519
02:03:39,630 --> 02:03:42,990
I know it seems like the numbers aren't adding up, but that's purposeful, they're not meant

1520
02:03:42,990 --> 02:03:43,550
to.

1521
02:03:43,950 --> 02:03:44,090
Okay.

1522
02:03:44,450 --> 02:03:50,690
185 is just about the operator has to reside there for more than half the year, basically.

1523
02:03:51,950 --> 02:03:55,310
The other two numbers are more about the renters.

1524
02:03:56,290 --> 02:04:02,210
You can only use your property for 90 days total out of the year as a short term rental.

1525
02:04:02,470 --> 02:04:10,730
That was a commission add on and then what defines a short term rental is that you're not renting it for longer than 30 days.

1526
02:04:11,110 --> 02:04:12,590
No more than a month basically.

1527
02:04:13,190 --> 02:04:19,670
But let me just go to that section of the code to answer your question about how do we verify the residency requirement.

1528
02:04:20,630 --> 02:04:21,090
So,

1529
02:04:36,450 --> 02:04:39,160
no, we're all these things are by now, but here it is.

1530
02:04:40,070 --> 02:04:40,870
Okay, accessory residential.

1531
02:04:40,990 --> 02:04:42,330
Use your short term residence rental.

1532
02:04:42,530 --> 02:04:44,070
You click on this 112G.

1533
02:04:44,630 --> 02:04:45,970
That takes you to the use standard.

1534
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:52,600
So zoning permit required.

1535
02:04:53,940 --> 02:04:56,000
So they have to submit an application.

1536
02:04:56,500 --> 02:04:59,980
And they have to submit evidence of compliance with or extension from the register.

1537
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:11,700
We talked about that earlier. And then the application for a certificate of registration has to have written consent of the property owner. And

1538
02:05:22,360 --> 02:05:38,600
there you go. So for a, the operator must occupy the dwelling in which the short term residential rentals and accessory use for a minimum of 185 days out of the calendar year. The zoning administrator may request appropriate documentation to determine proof of residency.

1539
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:45,840
examples of appropriate documentation include driver's license with the property address utility bills or bank statements or tax returns.

1540
02:05:46,660 --> 02:05:59,700
Okay. So what I'm kind of getting at is if we have 185-day requirement, but only a maximum of 90 days that you can rent why is it not just 275 days.

1541
02:06:00,500 --> 02:06:02,140
is your residency requirement.

1542
02:06:04,930 --> 02:06:05,910
That's a good question.

1543
02:06:06,350 --> 02:06:09,690
The 90-day was added at the last discussion.

1544
02:06:10,230 --> 02:06:11,570
That's kind of what I'm getting ahead.

1545
02:06:12,190 --> 02:06:15,310
It kind of layered in the numbers just didn't match because of that.

1546
02:06:15,430 --> 02:06:20,470
It wasn't that there's some Delta in there that I'm missing somewhere else.

1547
02:06:21,710 --> 02:06:22,330
That's fine.

1548
02:06:23,330 --> 02:06:25,510
Staff is okay without the 90-day requirement.

1549
02:06:26,610 --> 02:06:29,770
Without the 90-day maximum.

1550
02:06:29,870 --> 02:06:30,290
Correct.

1551
02:06:30,290 --> 02:06:40,470
So no, like no matter essentially, whatever the difference is, 365 minus 185, 180 days, that's what staff is okay.

1552
02:06:40,550 --> 02:06:44,550
Remember that you can have a short-term rental in your accessory dwelling.

1553
02:06:45,430 --> 02:06:49,190
So I could be living in the main house and renting out my accessory dwelling at the same time.

1554
02:06:49,550 --> 02:06:58,030
So the 185 doesn't necessarily constrain when you can use it as a short-term residential in all situations.

1555
02:06:58,030 --> 02:07:06,110
Okay, so if somebody has an accessory dwelling, they are not kept by the 90 days under the new.

1556
02:07:06,290 --> 02:07:08,050
Now, the 90 days is per parcel.

1557
02:07:09,530 --> 02:07:11,030
Okay, so I

1558
02:07:13,080 --> 02:07:13,900
want to make sure I'm clear.

1559
02:07:14,540 --> 02:07:15,900
So this is accessory dwelling.

1560
02:07:15,900 --> 02:07:23,060
When is there's a, use as an Airbnb is still kept at 90 days, or it is not.

1561
02:07:23,500 --> 02:07:29,080
As of right now, the way it's proposed to the council, no dwelling may be used as a short-term residential rental

1562
02:07:29,080 --> 02:07:31,960
for more than 90 total calendar days per year.

1563
02:07:34,310 --> 02:07:37,450
So if someone builds an accessory dwelling

1564
02:07:37,450 --> 02:07:41,330
for the purposes of an Airbnb and we pass this

1565
02:07:41,330 --> 02:07:41,910
or the grandfather,

1566
02:07:45,230 --> 02:07:47,130
if they have an existing permit today

1567
02:07:47,130 --> 02:07:49,490
they're grandfathered, but after it's passed no.

1568
02:07:52,830 --> 02:07:55,030
And on that topic, just the,

1569
02:07:55,030 --> 02:07:56,910
so there's the, I think the planning commission

1570
02:07:56,910 --> 02:07:59,710
had two different areas of concern.

1571
02:07:59,990 --> 02:08:01,490
One was the residency requirement.

1572
02:08:01,750 --> 02:08:03,390
The other was just the use and activity.

1573
02:08:03,390 --> 02:08:09,410
The 90 days was specifically to the use of activity, not directly associated with the residency.

1574
02:08:10,050 --> 02:08:11,030
And that's why there's a bucket.

1575
02:08:11,170 --> 02:08:12,050
Two different numbers.

1576
02:08:12,270 --> 02:08:14,210
They're not necessarily compatible.

1577
02:08:17,090 --> 02:08:17,290
Yeah.

1578
02:08:18,650 --> 02:08:19,650
I'll come back.

1579
02:08:21,070 --> 02:08:21,490
Okay.

1580
02:08:21,610 --> 02:08:23,530
So that I got a piggyback on this one.

1581
02:08:25,390 --> 02:08:29,390
So I'm thinking short term rentals are Airbnb's.

1582
02:08:29,970 --> 02:08:30,250
Correct.

1583
02:08:30,530 --> 02:08:32,250
So someone lives in there for half a year.

1584
02:08:32,250 --> 02:08:35,970
I guess, can they have, could they run it out while they're living here?

1585
02:08:36,230 --> 02:08:36,710
Correct.

1586
02:08:36,710 --> 02:08:40,410
If they run it out of room, two rooms, a basement, an accessory dwelling.

1587
02:08:44,930 --> 02:08:52,290
And so limiting the 90 days, even though that's, I'm not sure what, I'm confused

1588
02:08:52,290 --> 02:08:53,370
about the 90 days too.

1589
02:08:53,610 --> 02:08:59,130
It doesn't, the 180 days, I can, I can understand, but I don't understand the 90 day

1590
02:08:59,130 --> 02:09:10,730
next. This was something the commission wanted to just put an overall cap saying, hey,

1591
02:09:10,970 --> 02:09:16,070
do dwelling can be used as one of these for more than 90 days period. So if you're using

1592
02:09:16,070 --> 02:09:20,370
an accessory dwelling unit, it's not affordable housing. It's not direct. It's a rental.

1593
02:09:21,310 --> 02:09:26,770
So it's nothing. It's no more different than you having somebody come in your house or stay

1594
02:09:26,770 --> 02:09:31,270
with you for a period of time and pay you for it.

1595
02:09:31,810 --> 02:09:36,050
So I don't have any problems with the 180 days myself.

1596
02:09:37,350 --> 02:09:42,090
I wouldn't like to see it be an Airbnb for the entire year.

1597
02:09:42,770 --> 02:09:44,090
That's one problem with that.

1598
02:09:44,130 --> 02:09:45,870
Yeah, you're on the right path.

1599
02:09:45,890 --> 02:09:48,710
That's what they were thinking as well.

1600
02:09:48,790 --> 02:09:49,930
Mr. Steinberg.

1601
02:09:52,500 --> 02:09:52,920
It's right for you.

1602
02:09:53,060 --> 02:09:54,460
This conversation is fraught.

1603
02:09:54,460 --> 02:09:59,940
First of all, anybody could have a primary resident.

1604
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:13,200
And use it as an Airbnb or some sort of sure say rental while they live there all year round. So are we saying, in that kind of a situation in theory, they're still limited to the 90 days?

1605
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:16,880
As it's currently drafted, sir. Yes? Okay.

1606
02:10:20,520 --> 02:10:21,380
Now what if

1607
02:10:23,400 --> 02:10:25,480
you have, you have,

1608
02:10:28,040 --> 02:10:33,920
you're going to go away and you want someone to stay at your house because you have plants and pets.

1609
02:10:33,920 --> 02:10:41,060
So, in effect, you are swapping residents for a period of time, maybe, could be a month or what have you.

1610
02:10:41,380 --> 02:10:46,540
How would an arrangement like it, and you're not, there's no monetary exchange.

1611
02:10:46,900 --> 02:10:50,420
You're just, they're just coming to say your house and you're going somewhere else.

1612
02:10:51,120 --> 02:10:55,260
So, does that in any way fall under this?

1613
02:10:55,300 --> 02:10:57,340
That's an entirely separate situation.

1614
02:10:58,460 --> 02:11:00,100
No registration or anything like that.

1615
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:09,500
Are we actually going, is the state going to actually allow us to limit a situation like this

1616
02:11:09,500 --> 02:11:15,020
to the 90 days that we're hoping for, first of all, that's the first question.

1617
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:18,820
Yes, we do feel that we're unable to draft this regulation.

1618
02:11:20,140 --> 02:11:27,580
Okay, and given that we have asked our legislative packet through VML, they have asked the

1619
02:11:27,580 --> 02:11:34,640
legislature and their legislative packet to eliminate what is section B of the registry

1620
02:11:36,840 --> 02:11:45,220
forgiveness, so to speak. If they don't do that, then where are we going to be? I'm not saying

1621
02:11:45,220 --> 02:11:49,140
we shouldn't do what we should, but we want to do and see what happens. I'm just wondering

1622
02:11:49,780 --> 02:11:51,440
where we might be in the end.

1623
02:11:54,440 --> 02:11:54,800
We don't know.

1624
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:55,640
where we are now?

1625
02:11:56,380 --> 02:11:58,800
It's hard to speculate on whether...

1626
02:11:59,900 --> 02:12:05,940
I mean, as it stands now, there is, you can be forgiven for the registry if you're

1627
02:12:05,940 --> 02:12:14,140
of some sort of management agency and a less-than-state deems it in our interest to strip

1628
02:12:14,140 --> 02:12:15,680
that out.

1629
02:12:16,440 --> 02:12:19,740
It's somewhat limits us in terms of the registration altogether.

1630
02:12:20,140 --> 02:12:20,320
Yes?

1631
02:12:21,520 --> 02:12:31,080
I think that's one of the reasons we wanted to put that registration in the town code so that it's easier to amend as the state may or may not change their mind.

1632
02:12:31,780 --> 02:12:34,640
But, and I see Mr. Spears about the jump-up there as well.

1633
02:12:35,260 --> 02:12:40,640
If I may, Madam Mayor, we're trying to address multiple issues here.

1634
02:12:40,640 --> 02:12:50,760
The 185-day requirement is designed to avoid this sort of corporate ownership of these

1635
02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:53,160
rental properties which has become a problem throughout the country.

1636
02:12:54,240 --> 02:13:00,600
The 90 days is to unlike the mayor's suggestion which I don't think we can do about limiting the number

1637
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,700
that can be in a particular zone.

1638
02:13:03,700 --> 02:13:11,160
The 90-day use limitation that would apply across the board limits the number of times the properties you use that way.

1639
02:13:11,300 --> 02:13:17,040
So it's reducing the impact in what we believe is a legal way, as opposed to a numeric cap.

1640
02:13:18,960 --> 02:13:32,460
But the issue that we've put in the legislative package is to be sure that we other than just word of mouth or just asking people that we actually have some official way of tracking all the properties.

1641
02:13:32,460 --> 02:13:37,380
within our community that are operating in this way and the way that the code is current.

1642
02:13:37,440 --> 02:13:41,660
The state code is currently drafted, certain folks are exempt from registration.

1643
02:13:42,020 --> 02:13:44,480
So how do we know? We're basically being told.

1644
02:13:44,900 --> 02:13:53,860
We'll just trust us because you've got to trust the websites and the software companies that operate these things.

1645
02:13:54,420 --> 02:13:56,880
And yeah, they're going to remit the right amount of tax to you.

1646
02:13:56,880 --> 02:13:58,040
And it's all going to be taken care.

1647
02:13:58,040 --> 02:14:03,980
We're basically being asked to accept that on faith as opposed to having an active across the board registration

1648
02:14:03,980 --> 02:14:04,380
requirements.

1649
02:14:04,580 --> 02:14:10,000
So the things we're talking about are really designed to address three different problems.

1650
02:14:11,220 --> 02:14:12,820
If that clarifies it.

1651
02:14:14,760 --> 02:14:21,760
We feel we need to do to protect the neighborhoods and the community and then where things fall out.

1652
02:14:28,360 --> 02:14:29,180
Mr. Cummings.

1653
02:14:29,460 --> 02:14:30,900
Thank you.

1654
02:14:31,220 --> 02:14:37,280
In the, I know when we were, a couple years ago when we were working the, when it was still in the zoning ordinance,

1655
02:14:37,280 --> 02:14:42,460
the standards for accessory or the homestay short-term residential.

1656
02:14:43,380 --> 02:14:44,360
There was kind of like a,

1657
02:14:44,360 --> 02:14:46,280
I using the term three strikes policy.

1658
02:14:47,060 --> 02:14:50,880
Few were head by at two or three violations on that third violation.

1659
02:14:51,180 --> 02:14:53,580
You lost your ability to have the permit.

1660
02:14:54,220 --> 02:14:55,560
Do we maintain that?

1661
02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:59,480
Or is it the changes that the state did not allow us to maintain that?

1662
02:15:00,270 --> 02:15:08,830
We did revise that section per the town attorneys guidance to read number five here, penalties.

1663
02:15:11,150 --> 02:15:19,370
Violations of the Subsection of Child Constitute of Zoning, Violation of Subjected, Forcement of Fines, Per article, 8 of the Zoning ordinance.

1664
02:15:20,410 --> 02:15:29,900
And then it talks about town code, separate violation of Subjected, Forcement, Fines, etc. So that whole section was reworked with their guidance.

1665
02:15:29,900 --> 02:15:34,940
But we lost that, like one, two, three, you're done.

1666
02:15:36,200 --> 02:15:37,260
And we have to.

1667
02:15:37,740 --> 02:15:42,180
But we still have the, it still include the right to revoke.

1668
02:15:42,660 --> 02:15:43,240
It's still in there.

1669
02:15:43,360 --> 02:15:46,980
I just, I don't know that we have it expressly, one, two, three.

1670
02:15:47,200 --> 02:15:52,900
It's basically going to be up to the,

1671
02:15:52,900 --> 02:15:57,680
The zoning administrator, telling us, okay, this person's a habitual offender.

1672
02:15:58,660 --> 02:16:06,740
Well, I think it would be good if we're able to define it to two or three to bring that back

1673
02:16:06,740 --> 02:16:13,660
as a vehicle to help regulate, which is what I think we're all trying to talk about as regulating them.

1674
02:16:14,080 --> 02:16:20,040
And so if we are able to do that, I'd like to see three, you know, three to return.

1675
02:16:22,460 --> 02:16:23,100
But I'm seeing the...

1676
02:16:23,100 --> 02:16:24,640
Well, violations do the second.

1677
02:16:24,820 --> 02:16:26,160
Yeah, I'm seeing you.

1678
02:16:26,160 --> 02:16:27,700
You're certainly free to put it in there.

1679
02:16:27,700 --> 02:16:37,460
If you choose, I mean, I think that the intent here was to basically defer to the zoning

1680
02:16:37,460 --> 02:16:42,400
administrator as he works through his normal process of, you know, outreach, education,

1681
02:16:43,760 --> 02:16:49,700
hope for corrective action, if it, and then let him or her, whoever's in the chair, make

1682
02:16:49,700 --> 02:16:55,040
the determination based upon the conduct of the individual, do we have a true recidivist,

1683
02:16:55,040 --> 02:17:04,620
Do we have some of you switching management companies who's are they dropping the ball for that reason as opposed to making it automatic adding that the human factor?

1684
02:17:05,560 --> 02:17:12,940
Giving the zoning administrators some discretion. I think that's that's the long-weird trend draw and on and on most things I appreciate that on this

1685
02:17:12,940 --> 02:17:13,980
I think it's having

1686
02:17:13,980 --> 02:17:22,320
Having it say and giving the zoning administrator no matter who it is. Hey, you've got they've got three to get their act together on the third one. They're they're out

1687
02:17:22,320 --> 02:17:24,980
You're legally able to do that. Thank you

1688
02:17:25,040 --> 02:17:29,700
What about if, if, if the matter may have to go mind Mr. Spare, what, what other

1689
02:17:30,560 --> 02:17:35,000
Apologies or opportunities do we have to regulate short-term rentals? Are we able to tax them differently?

1690
02:17:36,200 --> 02:17:37,780
No, that is

1691
02:17:39,260 --> 02:17:41,180
I don't think we can

1692
02:17:41,180 --> 02:17:47,140
Okay, so they just paid the same TOT tag the transit oxygen right and that's where the

1693
02:17:48,420 --> 02:17:53,360
There's a couple of problems. That's where the the non-registration

1694
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:58,900
And how do we know, right, we're essentially in a situation where we have taxes in place

1695
02:17:58,900 --> 02:18:03,680
that we can assess both the property tax based on value and the transient occupancy

1696
02:18:03,680 --> 02:18:08,880
tax based upon number of nights that the facilities occupied.

1697
02:18:09,880 --> 02:18:12,240
But we don't have direct access to that data.

1698
02:18:12,780 --> 02:18:17,540
It all basically goes to the state and with the registration requirement, there's no way

1699
02:18:17,540 --> 02:18:18,260
for us to verify.

1700
02:18:18,740 --> 02:18:19,060
Got you.

1701
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:20,680
I appreciate that.

1702
02:18:20,680 --> 02:18:25,540
And for me, what I think, what I'd like to see is do,

1703
02:18:25,720 --> 02:18:27,920
and I did a little research, I of course, left it at home.

1704
02:18:29,240 --> 02:18:30,980
But I'd like to see us look at it,

1705
02:18:31,280 --> 02:18:32,540
and we don't, I'm just going to say it though,

1706
02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:34,340
it's out there and ask for maybe a future work session

1707
02:18:34,340 --> 02:18:36,140
on it, because it's not something I think we can do tonight.

1708
02:18:36,800 --> 02:18:42,420
But I'd like to see us look to create regulation

1709
02:18:43,320 --> 02:18:50,660
and to push the short-term ranchers that property

1710
02:18:50,660 --> 02:18:55,860
willing to adhere to the strict standards that we've put in place to run their short-term rentals

1711
02:18:55,860 --> 02:19:03,020
in the town of Leesburg, or incentivize them in a way to instead of going short-term rentals

1712
02:19:03,020 --> 02:19:08,840
to look at taking the property and renting it to a family, renting it to an individual for

1713
02:19:08,840 --> 02:19:14,300
a multiple month longer than a short-term, a long-term rental, 12 months or more. Because

1714
02:19:14,300 --> 02:19:20,640
to me, that's the balance we have to strike is these properties that go to, you know,

1715
02:19:20,640 --> 02:19:24,320
handful of owners, sometime in Leesburg, we're seeing it on the same street.

1716
02:19:25,240 --> 02:19:29,680
And that's not inventory that goes back, whether it's a rental for a young family,

1717
02:19:29,760 --> 02:19:34,220
our young person moving into the town, or someone trying to move up and just stay in

1718
02:19:34,220 --> 02:19:34,520
the town.

1719
02:19:35,000 --> 02:19:39,420
And so I'd like to, I'm going to ask later for a work session to ask staff to kind of

1720
02:19:39,420 --> 02:19:44,160
look to see what options we have to try to incentivize current owners of a short-term

1721
02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:49,280
rental to convert that to a long-term rental versus continuing to use the short-term rental.

1722
02:19:51,580 --> 02:19:59,980
Is that, does that mess with, what, you know, which of the timeline is or can we, at a later date have?

1723
02:20:00,000 --> 02:20:03,800
Have a work session and maybe change this if needed?

1724
02:20:05,140 --> 02:20:11,820
We certainly can do the research to see if we're even unable to put something in there that says,

1725
02:20:12,000 --> 02:20:18,900
hey, adhere to these standards, or you can get some sort of incentives to rent towards your typical process.

1726
02:20:19,140 --> 02:20:20,100
That's fine.

1727
02:20:21,020 --> 02:20:21,620
Any

1728
02:20:24,400 --> 02:20:26,340
other questions at this point?

1729
02:20:26,340 --> 02:20:32,960
Well then, does Council, are there four people on Council that agree with the Residency requirement?

1730
02:20:36,640 --> 02:20:37,400
Okay, that passes?

1731
02:20:39,340 --> 02:20:39,460
Yes.

1732
02:20:39,460 --> 02:20:41,500
Does Council agree with the 90D Max?

1733
02:20:42,200 --> 02:20:43,840
Are there four people that agree with that?

1734
02:20:44,540 --> 02:20:45,760
That doesn't go.

1735
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:48,400
Is there an alternative number?

1736
02:20:48,560 --> 02:20:49,220
No, Max.

1737
02:20:49,440 --> 02:20:54,040
I'll throw out 180 because that would be the other part if you're not there.

1738
02:20:54,360 --> 02:20:58,580
If you're down and floored at that point, it gives you the opportunity to use it.

1739
02:20:58,580 --> 02:21:02,000
there are four people that would be interested in that. Nope.

1740
02:21:04,880 --> 02:21:08,280
Anyone else have any, I guess not, I guess it's just, yes.

1741
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:22,200
So I guess I just want to understand what planning commission added a 90 day max in the attempt to help mitigate the issue of just having an Airbnb that's just rendered all year constant churn.

1742
02:21:22,200 --> 02:21:28,800
The residency requirement was also thrown into sort of fixed that as well.

1743
02:21:30,700 --> 02:21:37,560
So, you staff thinks that one 80 is appropriate because that is our full year 300 now.

1744
02:21:37,640 --> 02:21:42,860
Now, staff is comfortable with the residency requirement, addressing pride of ownership,

1745
02:21:43,720 --> 02:21:45,680
keeping the residential neighborhood character,

1746
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:52,700
staff, it does not need or support the 90 days max per year limitation.

1747
02:21:54,540 --> 02:21:56,600
So, sorry, I'm not a word of that wrong.

1748
02:21:56,840 --> 02:21:59,200
So, 180, which is the Delta.

1749
02:21:59,880 --> 02:22:03,100
When I say 180 max, really you're saying there wouldn't be a max.

1750
02:22:03,120 --> 02:22:06,160
Because you're already 180 as max.

1751
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:07,720
Because you need to live there 185.

1752
02:22:08,800 --> 02:22:09,400
Not exactly.

1753
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:12,760
You can rent it at the same time you're living there.

1754
02:22:12,760 --> 02:22:17,920
It could be all right. Well, then it's a bed breakfast. Well, not necessarily. You're utilizing

1755
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:24,520
40 or stays of 30 days or less. Okay. If you live there, you're around. You could do it. You're around. Okay.

1756
02:22:24,620 --> 02:22:32,240
Okay. I see what you're saying. So staff is okay with 365. If you're living there, 185 out of the year. Yes. Okay.

1757
02:22:33,640 --> 02:22:40,760
So yeah, I was going to say so we don't have any sort of agreement across council on this.

1758
02:22:43,580 --> 02:22:53,580
So if it's under occupied, I don't agree with a max, but if it's non-over occupied, absolutely, I would put a 90 day max on it.

1759
02:22:53,860 --> 02:23:02,400
Can we do we can specify that? Well, I mean, if it's owner, I mean, if we're doing the 185, it's got to be no matter what owner occupied.

1760
02:23:02,400 --> 02:23:17,560
It's our own operating and occupied operator, thank you operator occupied, so with the 185 in place do we feel that adequately adjust addresses some of the issues that we were trying to address.

1761
02:23:18,960 --> 02:23:20,280
I don't but.

1762
02:23:20,880 --> 02:23:28,700
Okay, so I mean, that's I guess I just I don't want to leave this one out on the table, that was my point. I mean, or we can return it.

1763
02:23:28,700 --> 02:23:30,980
If we want to think about it more, is that the plan?

1764
02:23:31,980 --> 02:23:35,060
Well, I don't, gentlemen, none of you voted for it.

1765
02:23:35,060 --> 02:23:37,200
Are you opposed to having any number on it?

1766
02:23:39,050 --> 02:23:44,310
I think that, for me, I find with the regulation of the residency requirement, the 185 days.

1767
02:23:48,140 --> 02:23:48,680
All right.

1768
02:23:48,880 --> 02:23:49,660
Let's strike that part.

1769
02:23:51,700 --> 02:23:56,860
And then, does council wish to revise any other short-term residential rental regulations?

1770
02:23:57,340 --> 02:24:02,320
We might, in the future, when we have that work session, are you anticipating bringing it back sooner

1771
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:03,800
than having a work session.

1772
02:24:04,460 --> 02:24:05,860
I will try our best to do that research

1773
02:24:05,860 --> 02:24:07,880
and bring it back most likely

1774
02:24:07,880 --> 02:24:09,900
and their December date.

1775
02:24:10,060 --> 02:24:10,420
The December?

1776
02:24:11,100 --> 02:24:12,600
Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Cummings?

1777
02:24:21,660 --> 02:24:21,860
OK.

1778
02:24:21,860 --> 02:24:22,200
All right.

1779
02:24:23,440 --> 02:24:24,000
OK.

1780
02:24:26,180 --> 02:24:27,760
The final topic for tonight

1781
02:24:27,760 --> 02:24:30,120
was data center use standards.

1782
02:24:30,480 --> 02:24:33,380
And this came from Council Member Steinberg and Krukowski.

1783
02:24:34,660 --> 02:24:36,740
And this is when we also worked

1784
02:24:38,180 --> 02:24:52,300
relatively recently recall that we evaluated, which district status centers should be permitted in, and we came up with a pretty significant list of data center use standards.

1785
02:24:53,300 --> 02:24:57,120
And that occurred back in, let's see,

1786
02:24:59,390 --> 02:24:59,750
2020.

1787
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:08,500
3. We also define data center and data center electrical utility substation. And so those standards carried

1788
02:25:08,500 --> 02:25:15,260
forward to the draft. There's use standards that cover building placement, building mass, articulation

1789
02:25:15,260 --> 02:25:22,160
and fenestration, which is a fancy word for windows or faux windows or glass, equipment screening, landscaping,

1790
02:25:22,360 --> 02:25:29,840
and accessory uses and structures such as substations and generators. So we had recall that we adopted

1791
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:36,580
those use standards and data centers were permitted in the I1 district but then we had a subsequent

1792
02:25:36,580 --> 02:25:41,860
legislative effort to say no actually it's just special exception in the I1 district and that's

1793
02:25:41,860 --> 02:25:50,000
what's carrying forward now is special exception used in the IR district only. And so you know a little

1794
02:25:50,000 --> 02:25:59,080
bit of trip down memory lane when we were developing these use standards the council asked us to

1795
02:25:59,080 --> 02:26:01,180
work with industry representatives.

1796
02:26:01,940 --> 02:26:08,980
So we went back and forth and worked with the industry reps and came up with a set of

1797
02:26:08,980 --> 02:26:16,480
standards that we felt hit a good middle ground of mitigating impacts and addressing compatibility,

1798
02:26:17,620 --> 02:26:22,500
but still ensuring efficient operations for the data center provider.

1799
02:26:23,220 --> 02:26:27,760
We also heard from the environmental, folks, the Peat Modern Environmental Council and then some

1800
02:26:27,760 --> 02:26:30,160
the standards were revised based on that input as well.

1801
02:26:31,340 --> 02:26:34,400
So staff is comfortable with the use standards as is.

1802
02:26:34,660 --> 02:26:36,780
We feel like they strike a good balance,

1803
02:26:37,720 --> 02:26:41,000
but the council members wanted to talk a little bit

1804
02:26:41,000 --> 02:26:45,680
about is their desire to perhaps add hours of operation.

1805
02:26:46,300 --> 02:26:50,420
For backup generators, is there a desire to support

1806
02:26:50,420 --> 02:26:52,760
additional energy efficiency measures,

1807
02:26:53,260 --> 02:26:55,900
such as battery backup or high efficiency generators,

1808
02:26:55,900 --> 02:27:06,500
And then also is there a direction to pursue additional incentives for adaptive reuse of data centers in the zoning ordinance.

1809
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:08,800
So those were the three questions.

1810
02:27:09,040 --> 02:27:15,760
And before we go to those questions, I just wanted to cover data center reuse in a little bit more detail.

1811
02:27:16,680 --> 02:27:22,120
So the idea here and this is an idea that the Virginia Municipal League is talking about now.

1812
02:27:22,120 --> 02:27:28,720
They've thrown up a subcommittee to discuss whether or not we need to start being concerned

1813
02:27:28,720 --> 02:27:31,360
about the reuse of data center buildings in the future.

1814
02:27:32,340 --> 02:27:37,920
So we did a little research, couldn't find anything in the state code as specifically enables

1815
02:27:37,920 --> 02:27:43,840
legislation for requiring developers to plan for reuse of data centers or industrial buildings.

1816
02:27:44,640 --> 02:27:47,900
However, the state code does enable pretty broad zoning or it's authority.

1817
02:27:47,900 --> 02:27:55,380
We also looked at some comparators, didn't find much in the way of adaptive reuse regulations,

1818
02:27:56,180 --> 02:28:00,620
looked at loud and county Fairfax County, Henrico County, City of Alexandria, City of Hampton,

1819
02:28:00,840 --> 02:28:01,480
City of Richmond.

1820
02:28:02,060 --> 02:28:06,620
There wasn't an interesting concept in Arlington County called the Adaptive Reuse Amendment,

1821
02:28:07,400 --> 02:28:13,200
and this was geared towards not just data centers, but industrial and commercial buildings.

1822
02:28:13,200 --> 02:28:15,980
and the idea was, they recognize that they have a

1823
02:28:15,980 --> 02:28:22,420
a dearth of vacant office space, and so they're trying to encourage and incentivize

1824
02:28:22,420 --> 02:28:27,780
reuse of some of that that derelict office space, and so they've done that through

1825
02:28:27,780 --> 02:28:33,720
streamlining the process and forming up some methodologies and some

1826
02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:37,060
SOPs around quicker site plans for reuse.

1827
02:28:37,520 --> 02:28:40,500
So that's one potential concept.

1828
02:28:40,500 --> 02:28:47,560
And then we did some market research, and I've got the economic development director here, Mr.

1829
02:28:47,860 --> 02:28:54,420
Seymour, that can speak to these data points in more detail, but based on Mr. Seymour's research,

1830
02:28:55,460 --> 02:29:00,440
we're really not at any risk of market driven obsolescence for data centers right now.

1831
02:29:00,440 --> 02:29:04,460
You've got approximately 230 data centers around county.

1832
02:29:04,460 --> 02:29:11,220
That's 56.5 million square feet in operation under development, 35.7 million square feet

1833
02:29:11,220 --> 02:29:16,760
approved in the pipeline and based on conversations, Mr. Seymour had with local developers.

1834
02:29:17,380 --> 02:29:22,540
The demand is still outpacing the supply, based on the need of next-gen computing for AI and

1835
02:29:22,540 --> 02:29:30,680
everything like that. So, based on all those data points, staff feels like this might not be

1836
02:29:30,680 --> 02:29:35,880
of the time to address data center reuse and the zoning orders rewrite, however, it would be

1837
02:29:35,880 --> 02:29:40,940
advantageous to keep monitoring what the Virginia Municipal League is doing in their data center

1838
02:29:40,940 --> 02:29:41,560
subcommittee.

1839
02:29:41,860 --> 02:29:44,440
So with that, I'll go back to the discussion questions.

1840
02:29:45,260 --> 02:29:51,890
My first question to you is, do we have any control over when the generators are used?

1841
02:29:52,940 --> 02:29:58,680
It was my understanding that that's determined by things of

1842
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:08,960
So use the usage and the fact that if there's any sort of emergency, such as one of the substations going

1843
02:30:08,960 --> 02:30:16,160
out, the generators have to go on, because it has to, it can't, if you, if it were not to be

1844
02:30:16,160 --> 02:30:23,240
cold, it would cause all of those servers to go down. So are we really, I mean, I thought

1845
02:30:23,240 --> 02:30:27,840
we couldn't be the ones to say when you can have generators running in someone you can't, am I

1846
02:30:27,840 --> 02:30:33,900
correct on that? I think what you have illustrated is a pretty safe assumption of the operational

1847
02:30:33,900 --> 02:30:38,400
needs which is going to speak to that balancing act that we were going back and forth when

1848
02:30:38,400 --> 02:30:44,620
we initially developed these standards. And so we didn't want to put any constraints on the operations

1849
02:30:44,620 --> 02:30:50,100
that might cause the operation of fail so we did not include hours of operation on those generators

1850
02:30:50,100 --> 02:30:57,700
at this time. Mr. Seymour walked right behind you at that point. Will you try and do you want

1851
02:30:57,700 --> 02:31:03,440
to participate in this? You do have an opportunity when they're testing them. So they do have to

1852
02:31:03,440 --> 02:31:07,840
test them on monthly basis. Sometimes they'll do it at certain hours of the day, certain hours

1853
02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:13,620
in the evening. You do have the opportunity when they're testing them for non-emergency to be able

1854
02:31:16,280 --> 02:31:22,740
to

1855
02:31:22,740 --> 02:31:28,400
there. I mean, what hours would you, what hours of operation? I mean, when is the better

1856
02:31:28,400 --> 02:31:34,300
time to let them do their testing? Is it better in the morning? Is it better in the

1857
02:31:34,300 --> 02:31:39,080
morning? I don't, I have no idea. Does anybody, not at night? Not at night? Not at night?

1858
02:31:39,180 --> 02:31:42,380
Not at night? Well, everybody may be asleep, but not know it.

1859
02:31:42,480 --> 02:31:49,340
If I may have had a mayor, this is at least partially my item. What this actually part of this

1860
02:31:49,340 --> 02:31:54,280
discussion stem from it and it seems to have evolved a little bit in the direction was the

1861
02:31:55,380 --> 02:32:01,400
the running of generators and this is where I'm afraid that we may not have the ability to limit

1862
02:32:01,400 --> 02:32:10,200
or push in any direction but this past summer we had issues because there was an abundance of heat

1863
02:32:10,200 --> 02:32:16,260
and problems with that. Generators were essentially running continuously at some data centers

1864
02:32:16,260 --> 02:32:22,900
and it came down to the fact that their battery backups were not able to keep up, essentially.

1865
02:32:24,300 --> 02:32:29,050
So even though it could be deemed an emergency, a heat emergency, or related to the heat,

1866
02:32:30,220 --> 02:32:34,020
in the end, it may have been that they just didn't have enough battery backups,

1867
02:32:34,180 --> 02:32:37,540
that they were not adequately prepared with enough battery backups.

1868
02:32:38,960 --> 02:32:46,240
And so my question was actually more so about, are there any levers we can turn to state

1869
02:32:46,240 --> 02:32:52,080
say that you will make sure that you have enough battery backups to sustain operations and not

1870
02:32:52,080 --> 02:32:58,160
have to turn your generators on in these events. Now, yes, the heat was pretty bad this summer,

1871
02:32:59,200 --> 02:33:04,600
but there's nothing to say that can happen every summer for the next 10 years. It wasn't that crazy.

1872
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:15,760
So I guess my question is, is there any way that we can legislate that they are

1873
02:33:15,760 --> 02:33:20,300
to handle a moderate heat emergency.

1874
02:33:21,840 --> 02:33:24,000
That's kind of where I was going with that.

1875
02:33:25,360 --> 02:33:27,940
Well, look at the town of 30 for that one.

1876
02:33:29,960 --> 02:33:32,720
If I may, Madam Mayor, I think, prospectively,

1877
02:33:33,960 --> 02:33:39,400
you can require that just like in our initial design

1878
02:33:39,400 --> 02:33:43,340
standards, we specified a type of generator, right?

1879
02:33:43,340 --> 02:33:46,260
There was a, I forget what the, there you go.

1880
02:33:46,260 --> 02:33:50,060
And I don't think this is any different than that.

1881
02:33:51,360 --> 02:33:53,980
I don't know that we have the technical expertise

1882
02:33:55,500 --> 02:33:58,180
or the necessarily the authority

1883
02:34:00,580 --> 02:34:05,420
to define what the level of battery backup should be.

1884
02:34:05,640 --> 02:34:08,640
I don't know what we have that in it.

1885
02:34:09,040 --> 02:34:11,880
We can use words like adequate sufficient things like that.

1886
02:34:11,880 --> 02:34:17,720
But I don't know that we're going to call a disowning violation

1887
02:34:17,720 --> 02:34:19,920
if we get a super high day and the battery back up

1888
02:34:19,920 --> 02:34:20,700
gets overwhelmed.

1889
02:34:21,280 --> 02:34:25,000
We can put a requirement in, but if it doesn't work,

1890
02:34:25,820 --> 02:34:27,660
I don't know that we can violate.

1891
02:34:27,980 --> 02:34:29,880
I don't think we can cite them.

1892
02:34:31,760 --> 02:34:34,900
That was the direction I was actually going with my portion

1893
02:34:34,900 --> 02:34:36,100
of the generator.

1894
02:34:37,220 --> 02:34:41,180
Discussion was making sure that their battery backups

1895
02:34:41,180 --> 02:34:46,880
adequate enough to handle what it's designed for and not that they're going to just say,

1896
02:34:47,020 --> 02:34:51,600
well, it's fine. We can just run our generators for the next three days during this heat wave.

1897
02:34:52,740 --> 02:34:58,200
That was that was the aim of my discussion for that. So if you have anything additional, that's great,

1898
02:34:58,880 --> 02:34:59,960
but I didn't imagine that.

1899
02:35:00,460 --> 02:35:12,340
And I also imagine that the state is probably looking at this too, because we had our own issue with the Microsoft campus, not that long ago. That was the same situation, right?

1900
02:35:13,140 --> 02:35:13,920
That was the blowout.

1901
02:35:16,080 --> 02:35:28,000
So none of the last, I'm sure that there's a lot of changes at the state level, and that we're constantly just watching to see what they're doing and then reacting to that, but I just wanted to kind of make sure.

1902
02:35:28,000 --> 02:35:32,560
make sure that that was something that we were paying attention to. Thank you.

1903
02:35:32,560 --> 02:35:34,280
Yeah, we're two, one to three.

1904
02:35:35,940 --> 02:35:36,320
Understood.

1905
02:35:38,760 --> 02:35:39,720
Yes, Mr. Stranger?

1906
02:35:40,800 --> 02:35:46,080
Well, first of all, and I don't know who in the room is expert enough to answer it.

1907
02:35:46,280 --> 02:35:53,840
To what extent can a data center actually have battery backup for any appreciable amount of runtime?

1908
02:35:55,300 --> 02:35:55,940
Nobody knows.

1909
02:35:56,580 --> 02:36:03,160
I wasn't aware, I mean, I know there's discussion now at the state level that a data center

1910
02:36:03,160 --> 02:36:10,600
could do a solar installation and conjunction with a high energy use and that might

1911
02:36:10,600 --> 02:36:16,200
buy this in time, but in the end the power consumption is so great, I don't know what type

1912
02:36:16,200 --> 02:36:21,480
of battery backup is actually available. You're shaking your head. You're not in your head,

1913
02:36:21,480 --> 02:36:23,120
I guess I should say.

1914
02:36:25,010 --> 02:36:27,590
So, you're absolutely right.

1915
02:36:28,270 --> 02:36:31,490
No amount of battery backup is gonna sustain the data center

1916
02:36:31,490 --> 02:36:33,410
use, is that to normal operating time.

1917
02:36:33,750 --> 02:36:35,510
Even if you just look at what it takes to cool

1918
02:36:35,510 --> 02:36:36,810
out of the data center areas,

1919
02:36:37,810 --> 02:36:39,650
no battery backup is gonna be able to do that.

1920
02:36:39,710 --> 02:36:41,610
So that's why the generators kick in.

1921
02:36:41,730 --> 02:36:43,950
And as you mentioned, when the heat gets up there,

1922
02:36:44,190 --> 02:36:46,170
or when a substation goes down,

1923
02:36:46,490 --> 02:36:49,270
one of the conversations we had with Microsoft for your example

1924
02:36:49,830 --> 02:36:51,410
was the substation went down,

1925
02:36:51,510 --> 02:36:53,210
Microsoft had no control over it.

1926
02:36:53,210 --> 02:36:57,710
they kick on right away so they can't lose the data, but there is no battery back up it's

1927
02:36:57,710 --> 02:36:58,650
going to sustain it.

1928
02:36:58,910 --> 02:36:59,350
Yes, sir.

1929
02:36:59,770 --> 02:37:05,210
Now, as I recall, when we were negotiating with stock for the data center at the village across

1930
02:37:05,210 --> 02:37:11,370
the village of Lee's bird, we negotiated for Tier IV generators, but I then, I wasn't aware

1931
02:37:11,370 --> 02:37:16,410
that we'd actually built that into an ordinance, but am I mistaken there, or...

1932
02:37:16,410 --> 02:37:17,310
No, you're correct.

1933
02:37:17,310 --> 02:37:20,030
We don't actually have a tier for requirement.

1934
02:37:21,050 --> 02:37:24,230
In fact, we were advised that we didn't really

1935
02:37:24,230 --> 02:37:28,550
have explicit state code enabling us to mandate energy

1936
02:37:28,550 --> 02:37:30,850
officially standards, but it is something that

1937
02:37:30,850 --> 02:37:32,450
can be negotiated through the offers.

1938
02:37:33,570 --> 02:37:35,670
So when we get an application, we

1939
02:37:35,670 --> 02:37:39,190
can certainly strongly suggest such things.

1940
02:37:40,890 --> 02:37:45,390
Well, in the end, within the time of the time limits of Leedsberg,

1941
02:37:45,390 --> 02:37:52,210
for which there aren't that many opportunities for data centers anyway, which isn't to say we shouldn't be as cautious and careful as we can be.

1942
02:37:53,170 --> 02:38:01,390
I think we are going to, you know, have to step carefully and we're any other applications to be approved,

1943
02:38:01,650 --> 02:38:10,170
then we will have to be willing to accept certain realities for that kind of operation.

1944
02:38:10,170 --> 02:38:17,890
In today's technology, who knows what will happen next year or five years and so on, but for now,

1945
02:38:18,550 --> 02:38:20,550
this is where we are with these buildings.

1946
02:38:21,730 --> 02:38:22,510
So, okay, thanks.

1947
02:38:23,730 --> 02:38:28,830
Do we have any requirement of how far away these buildings need to be from residential?

1948
02:38:29,170 --> 02:38:29,710
Yes.

1949
02:38:30,010 --> 02:38:30,230
Yes.

1950
02:38:30,550 --> 02:38:31,890
Component of it, okay.

1951
02:38:34,210 --> 02:38:38,330
Does the council wish to add hours of operations for generators?

1952
02:38:38,330 --> 02:38:40,330
Do we want to go there?

1953
02:38:43,030 --> 02:38:48,970
Does the count want to enhance support for energy efficiency measures, such as battery backups or high efficiency generators?

1954
02:38:50,550 --> 02:38:51,810
No, can't do that one.

1955
02:38:52,090 --> 02:38:56,390
Does the council want to pursue additional incentives for data center adaptive use?

1956
02:38:57,090 --> 02:38:58,790
I don't want to incentivize them to do much of anything.

1957
02:39:03,510 --> 02:39:07,710
I think on that point, we can just keep monitoring the efforts of the VML subcommittee.

1958
02:39:07,710 --> 02:39:16,490
I believe that at the state level the governor has issued an executive order and a lot of

1959
02:39:16,490 --> 02:39:22,510
it involves the state of senate conversation and I believe that after we use this part of the

1960
02:39:22,510 --> 02:39:30,070
conversation but I don't know to what extent it's in any way solidified or certainly not

1961
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:46,320
We have a work plan, my question to you is the November 9th, what are we looking at November 9th?

1962
02:39:46,540 --> 02:39:46,660
Sure.

1963
02:39:47,220 --> 02:39:53,320
So if we go back to the attachment one that was in your packet, that's your deep dive list.

1964
02:39:54,340 --> 02:39:59,980
And I'll just give a quick summary of what's coming up on November.

1965
02:40:00,000 --> 02:40:27,700
So, I am on packet page 27, about two-thirds of the way down. So, review the work parking requirements, revisit and strengthen sustainability and set of measures, attainable housing, review consistency of setbacks across multiple districts, review the zoning map, gateway district boundaries.

1966
02:40:29,520 --> 02:40:37,600
perhaps reducing those to market street after the bypass, review the zoning map for the carriageway

1967
02:40:37,600 --> 02:40:42,060
town homes, whether or not to remove those from the old and historic district overlay.

1968
02:40:42,940 --> 02:40:50,240
And then finally, to start looking at the revisions that your planning commission has been

1969
02:40:50,240 --> 02:40:56,740
working on related to recent 2026 Virginia General Assembly legislation.

1970
02:40:56,740 --> 02:41:12,080
And so there was a whole host of bills that came through and staff and the commission has drafted language to address some of those bills related to accessory dwellings, parking high energy use facilities solar facilities and affordable housing.

1971
02:41:13,970 --> 02:41:14,490
Okay.

1972
02:41:14,490 --> 02:41:15,410
Any questions?

1973
02:41:16,070 --> 02:41:16,730
Yes sir.

1974
02:41:18,030 --> 02:41:27,150
To that point, then the conversation about retail cannabis obviously we have to deal with relative sooner rather than later.

1975
02:41:27,150 --> 02:41:31,130
And so is that going to become part of this conversation as we try to wrap this up?

1976
02:41:32,090 --> 02:41:36,010
Yes, we've tentatively scheduled that one on December 7th.

1977
02:41:36,010 --> 02:41:39,150
The commission's just getting started on that one, but they're moving quickly.

1978
02:41:41,450 --> 02:41:46,890
And at setting the tax rate is something already in the work side for Zoom as far as our schedule goes.

1979
02:41:47,750 --> 02:41:50,190
If I may have met a Mayor, yes, we have that schedule.

1980
02:41:50,590 --> 02:41:55,230
We've got a timeline developed and when we have to implement the tax rate is part of that schedule.

1981
02:41:55,230 --> 02:42:00,040
All right. Thank you. Thank you.

1982
02:42:00,840 --> 02:42:02,440
Appreciate everybody's efforts.

1983
02:42:06,240 --> 02:42:08,000
And the next item is the finding

1984
02:42:08,000 --> 02:42:09,600
creases for zoning violations.

1985
02:42:10,820 --> 02:42:13,160
And that's Mr. Spara and Mr. Watkins.

1986
02:42:28,500 --> 02:42:30,160
I will try and go quickly.

1987
02:42:31,940 --> 02:42:34,520
You requested this discussion a couple of months ago.

1988
02:42:35,060 --> 02:42:37,220
We included this in our legislative agenda.

1989
02:42:38,160 --> 02:42:39,940
But in our legislative agenda there's

1990
02:42:39,940 --> 02:42:48,780
have any numbers in it. We just have tried to get some subtraction with our general assembly

1991
02:42:48,780 --> 02:42:50,000
representatives.

1992
02:42:52,680 --> 02:42:57,540
Just to refresh everybody's recollection, the state code allows us both civil

1993
02:42:57,540 --> 02:43:05,300
penalties and criminal remedies. There's some thresholds before you can invoke the criminal

1994
02:43:05,300 --> 02:43:10,440
violations we have incorporated both of those things in the zoning ordinance rewrite.

1995
02:43:11,060 --> 02:43:15,880
Summary of the civil penalties we basically track what the state allows.

1996
02:43:18,420 --> 02:43:23,640
So we're doing the maximum allowable under the state code.

1997
02:43:27,690 --> 02:43:32,050
There is one thing that this relatively new in the state code.

1998
02:43:32,050 --> 02:43:45,970
It allows a slightly enhanced violation of maximums for multi-family residential where in certain areas,

1999
02:43:46,250 --> 02:43:50,710
it's going to get a lot more complaints because it's multiple units that may not be maintained properly.

2000
02:43:51,850 --> 02:43:55,430
We don't have a lot of properties like that this earlier in the town.

2001
02:43:55,830 --> 02:44:00,610
We've proposed in the draft ordinance that we're not going up to the maximum there.

2002
02:44:00,610 --> 02:44:05,550
But again, this is not your generic zoning violation.

2003
02:44:05,730 --> 02:44:10,310
These are limited specifically to specific multi-family properties.

2004
02:44:11,070 --> 02:44:16,650
So that's the one place where we deviate from the maximum fines allowed by the state code.

2005
02:44:18,370 --> 02:44:24,650
Our technical process, how we work, is, well, I'll back up.

2006
02:44:24,970 --> 02:44:27,570
This is the statutory enforcement process.

2007
02:44:28,670 --> 02:44:33,850
The notice of violation is what is the first thing that's required under the state code.

2008
02:44:34,410 --> 02:44:38,070
If they get a notice of violation, the correction order, they have the right to appeal,

2009
02:44:38,210 --> 02:44:39,370
it goes to the BCA.

2010
02:44:39,990 --> 02:44:44,390
If there's no appeal, then it comes to my office and we begin enforcement.

2011
02:44:45,250 --> 02:44:49,670
And then when you get an aggregation of civil penalties above a certain amount,

2012
02:44:50,830 --> 02:44:52,350
then we can go the criminal route.

2013
02:44:52,450 --> 02:44:53,590
And it's a misdemeanor.

2014
02:44:55,430 --> 02:44:59,970
current staff practices as we've discussed previously we have

2015
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:05,360
We have a complaint-based system. Once we receive a complaint, staff verifies the facts alleged

2016
02:45:05,360 --> 02:45:12,360
in the complaint. Our process, this is not required by the code, but our process, is we start

2017
02:45:12,360 --> 02:45:16,740
with a courtesy letter. A curation letter, not required by law,

2018
02:45:19,450 --> 02:45:20,690
but ours on the administrator

2019
02:45:20,690 --> 02:45:28,210
and I agree with him, believes that outreach and education and working with the property

2020
02:45:28,210 --> 02:45:32,870
in order to obtain corrective action is the best way to do things.

2021
02:45:33,110 --> 02:45:35,710
They've had doesn't work, and we move to the formal process,

2022
02:45:35,950 --> 02:45:38,110
which includes the notes of violation,

2023
02:45:38,790 --> 02:45:40,830
potential referral to my office.

2024
02:45:41,750 --> 02:45:43,270
We don't go to court very often.

2025
02:45:44,410 --> 02:45:45,230
We don't have to.

2026
02:45:45,330 --> 02:45:48,990
I think Mr. Watkins experienced tracks for the last six years.

2027
02:45:49,070 --> 02:45:54,130
What mine has been that normally people work it out.

2028
02:45:54,130 --> 02:45:59,390
they listen to what we're saying and they come around.

2029
02:46:00,670 --> 02:46:03,670
This chart lays out since 2021,

2030
02:46:04,110 --> 02:46:05,690
these are all the times we had to go to court.

2031
02:46:06,910 --> 02:46:11,150
It's 14, 14 times in six years.

2032
02:46:12,030 --> 02:46:14,510
And then there were two other times we went to court,

2033
02:46:14,910 --> 02:46:18,430
not because we weren't getting compliance with the violation,

2034
02:46:19,150 --> 02:46:28,710
But because we had sort of odd record ownership situations where basically the honor of record was deceased.

2035
02:46:30,630 --> 02:46:34,310
And because there's a requirement in the state code, you have to give notice to the honor.

2036
02:46:34,630 --> 02:46:36,030
But we knew the honor was deceased.

2037
02:46:37,590 --> 02:46:48,410
We were sort of between a rock and a hard place and we ended up having to go to the circuit court and get into

2038
02:46:48,410 --> 02:46:51,310
and there was no, quote, legal owner of record.

2039
02:46:53,230 --> 02:46:55,830
So those two additional instances

2040
02:46:55,830 --> 02:46:56,870
were we had to go to court,

2041
02:46:57,010 --> 02:47:02,810
but it really had nothing to do with Mr. Wyckon's approach,

2042
02:47:02,810 --> 02:47:03,570
not working.

2043
02:47:04,090 --> 02:47:06,510
It was somebody taking advantage of a situation

2044
02:47:06,510 --> 02:47:08,670
where they knew, well, if I don't probate the property

2045
02:47:08,670 --> 02:47:10,350
and put the house in my name,

2046
02:47:10,550 --> 02:47:11,730
they can't do anything to me.

2047
02:47:12,970 --> 02:47:16,810
But once we got the, got the order from the judge saying,

2048
02:47:16,810 --> 02:47:19,750
This is adequate for notice purposes,

2049
02:47:21,810 --> 02:47:25,470
then we were able to do our normal process.

2050
02:47:27,730 --> 02:47:33,870
There are some exclusions when you can go straight to criminal remedies.

2051
02:47:35,490 --> 02:47:38,150
Again, this is all just in the way of summary.

2052
02:47:39,470 --> 02:47:45,850
There are some special exceptions for non-permated commercial uses that don't apply within our planning district.

2053
02:47:45,850 --> 02:47:47,870
again, that just summary what's in the state code.

2054
02:47:49,110 --> 02:47:56,690
But as we talked about some other things that we could do, if the council wants to stay

2055
02:47:56,690 --> 02:48:01,370
to take a different approach, we could engage in more proactive enforcement.

2056
02:48:01,530 --> 02:48:09,870
Again, we have a complaint-based system, but if you wanted us to engage in more proactive enforcement

2057
02:48:09,870 --> 02:48:15,850
either town-wide or, within a particular district, we could, we could look at that.

2058
02:48:16,030 --> 02:48:20,070
Again, if staff is going out and doing stuff more proactively and not just responding

2059
02:48:20,070 --> 02:48:23,510
to community complaints, that we might need more bodies to do that.

2060
02:48:24,710 --> 02:48:30,910
We could skip the courtesy notice, again, that's not required by code, that's the best practice

2061
02:48:30,910 --> 02:48:37,310
that staff believes is appropriate in a community like ours, but we don't have to do it.

2062
02:48:37,310 --> 02:48:42,910
if you think that taking a firmer position sooner would help.

2063
02:48:44,570 --> 02:48:49,310
For certain egregious situations, we can go right to court.

2064
02:48:49,850 --> 02:48:54,510
And we have the right to go, and if the situation is bad enough,

2065
02:48:55,070 --> 02:48:58,290
to get a temporary restraining order in a new junction,

2066
02:48:58,770 --> 02:49:01,310
and basically to skip the other stuff.

2067
02:49:03,150 --> 02:49:04,210
Against staff's views,

2068
02:49:04,210 --> 02:49:08,710
at the current process of communication, education, and outreach remains the best practice,

2069
02:49:09,370 --> 02:49:12,690
and it resolves the overall majority of the cases that we have.

2070
02:49:16,240 --> 02:49:27,840
So we really need some guidance from you, as we, as if we can get one of our state delegation

2071
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:35,200
folks to carry the flag for us for state code amendment, what number do we want to ask for?

2072
02:49:37,040 --> 02:49:43,780
You have to make a decision if you want to include in the zoning ordinance the higher multi-family penalties that the state code now permits.

2073
02:49:44,300 --> 02:49:53,000
Again, we don't have that many properties and it's not staff recommendation that we match the higher penalties for multi-family properties.

2074
02:49:55,960 --> 02:49:59,980
Again, as we've already discussed when we've put in legislative agenda, the higher penalty amount.

2075
02:50:00,560 --> 02:50:14,040
Would require a change to state law. One of the other things that we talked about among staff is we could ask, even if we don't get them to give us a higher fine level.

2076
02:50:14,460 --> 02:50:24,500
We could ask the general assembly to amend the state code to make unpaid zoning violations, statutory leans against the property like unpaid taxes are. That might give some additional leverage.

2077
02:50:26,480 --> 02:50:53,840
I know from personal experience in a prior position where a company I worked for ended up owning a number of properties in New York City that when a property conveyed all the building code violations sort of conveyed with it and so you got a report as a purchaser in New York City of your outstanding violations that happened at closing.

2078
02:50:54,500 --> 02:51:00,440
I think one of the problems we have here is that in the context of a sale, there's no

2079
02:51:00,440 --> 02:51:07,800
notification to a buyer that there's an outstanding unpaid zoning violation fees.

2080
02:51:08,360 --> 02:51:14,500
So if they attach like an unpaid tax lien would, that might give some more leverage and incentivize

2081
02:51:14,500 --> 02:51:21,120
people to either not get fine to begin with or if they get fine to pay.

2082
02:51:23,040 --> 02:51:26,120
So, that's sort of all we had for you on this tonight.

2083
02:51:26,320 --> 02:51:29,140
Again, the question is what's the order of magnitude

2084
02:51:29,140 --> 02:51:33,120
that the Council desires in our ask to the General Assembly

2085
02:51:33,120 --> 02:51:38,400
if we get one of our legislative delegation to take up the flag for us?

2086
02:51:38,520 --> 02:51:43,840
And then whether or not we want to change our current enforcement practices

2087
02:51:43,840 --> 02:51:45,620
in any other ways that we've suggested.

2088
02:51:46,940 --> 02:51:49,760
Mr. Watkins and I, preferably Mr. Watkins,

2089
02:51:49,760 --> 02:51:52,980
We'll answer any questions that you have.

2090
02:51:53,000 --> 02:51:54,020
Mr. Kerkowski.

2091
02:51:54,580 --> 02:51:54,960
Thank you.

2092
02:51:55,000 --> 02:51:55,780
Thanks Chris.

2093
02:51:56,620 --> 02:51:58,460
I believe this was my item, I think.

2094
02:51:59,580 --> 02:52:05,840
And part of the reason that I asked that this get added was that we had some issues regarding

2095
02:52:07,600 --> 02:52:10,940
demolition here of structure or something.

2096
02:52:11,220 --> 02:52:16,720
So do you mind going back to the slide that you had where there were cases that you had taken to court?

2097
02:52:17,660 --> 02:52:24,640
And I just want to try to find an example, but so for instance say unpermitted parking lot expansion.

2098
02:52:25,360 --> 02:52:26,500
That's easily correctable.

2099
02:52:26,560 --> 02:52:31,720
Even regardless of the fine, you just could be like, hey, you're going to rip this out, right?

2100
02:52:31,860 --> 02:52:38,020
That would be fall under dismissed as resolved, perhaps, or something like that.

2101
02:52:38,220 --> 02:52:39,500
And that might be a question for Mike.

2102
02:52:39,500 --> 02:52:49,180
But what a more seeking to understand is if there was, say, a historic or contributing fence,

2103
02:52:49,340 --> 02:52:54,900
very historic fence, and somebody knocked it down and demolished, you know, took it out of there.

2104
02:52:55,340 --> 02:53:03,040
Remedy-wise, whether it's fines or what have you, you know, you can't always reconstruct that fence per se.

2105
02:53:03,880 --> 02:53:07,720
So what do we have as an enforcement mechanism when those kind of things happen?

2106
02:53:07,720 --> 02:53:10,640
This, that was the driver of this conversation.

2107
02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:14,240
Equi would elevate it to more than just a zoning

2108
02:53:14,240 --> 02:53:14,980
infraction.

2109
02:53:15,180 --> 02:53:17,660
And I think we would look for punitive actions,

2110
02:53:17,900 --> 02:53:19,840
which would be handled by the tenant attorney's office.

2111
02:53:21,340 --> 02:53:24,680
So that would fall, and that would be in the event of,

2112
02:53:24,760 --> 02:53:27,100
and again, I don't want to limit it specifically to say,

2113
02:53:27,540 --> 02:53:29,680
a historic item because I know that obviously

2114
02:53:29,680 --> 02:53:32,140
brings in some other organizations probably,

2115
02:53:32,220 --> 02:53:34,730
but just in general, when, if somebody maliciously

2116
02:53:35,970 --> 02:53:43,170
go out of their way or, you know, demolishes something and it can't be resolved.

2117
02:53:45,770 --> 02:53:47,090
It's not necessarily going to be a fine.

2118
02:53:47,310 --> 02:53:51,590
I think the more, again, one of the options that we laid out here is,

2119
02:53:51,710 --> 02:53:56,310
it's one of the tools available is if we see something that's egregious,

2120
02:53:56,890 --> 02:54:00,390
we don't need to go through the, the fine process.

2121
02:54:00,470 --> 02:54:03,790
We can go straight to court and get temporary restraining order.

2122
02:54:03,790 --> 02:54:10,690
And so in a situation like that, where in your hypothetical where you see something being demolished

2123
02:54:10,690 --> 02:54:18,070
or you see some other egregious use, which is causing something that has more immediacy

2124
02:54:18,070 --> 02:54:26,330
to, we're not limited to, you know, to know the violation, $200 fine, we can go down the street

2125
02:54:26,330 --> 02:54:29,110
and get judicial relief and make them stop.

2126
02:54:29,110 --> 02:54:33,930
And if they disregard that order, then you get a bench warrant and they go to jail.

2127
02:54:35,670 --> 02:54:40,830
So in the more egregious circumstances, we would use the more

2128
02:54:44,230 --> 02:54:45,010
severe remedy.

2129
02:54:45,610 --> 02:54:46,410
I guess it's what I think.

2130
02:54:46,830 --> 02:54:54,650
Do you feel that our fine tables, and I do agree with the community aspect of a courtesy letter

2131
02:54:54,650 --> 02:54:58,750
and trying to, I think that fits what we try to do in this community,

2132
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:10,280
After that, do you feel the fine tables are adequate? Based on what you showed us, there is some room for us to move, but staff, recommendation-wise, do we feel like those are adequate?

2133
02:55:11,040 --> 02:55:17,380
We are at the maximum, and there was some wiggle room for...

2134
02:55:17,380 --> 02:55:22,180
The only place where wiggle room was on the multi-family, and that's something that's relatively new.

2135
02:55:22,180 --> 02:55:32,170
Okay. But for non-multi-family situations or minds, track exactly what the, this is the multi-family

2136
02:55:32,170 --> 02:55:40,510
chart you saw, but we track exactly what the state code allows. Okay. Excellent. For the vast majority

2137
02:55:40,510 --> 02:55:46,430
of violations, we're right at the max when the state allows. The only place where we digress from that

2138
02:55:46,430 --> 02:55:54,110
is, and these multi-family enhanced multi-family violations are new. So they weren't in the

2139
02:55:54,110 --> 02:56:01,250
because these are new limits that were recently, recently allowed by the state code.

2140
02:56:01,690 --> 02:56:06,390
But staff based upon the mix of properties that we have in our history and enforcement,

2141
02:56:07,170 --> 02:56:13,390
we don't feel the need to go up to the new state statutory max for multifamily.

2142
02:56:14,030 --> 02:56:19,130
So that's really the only place where we deviate from the max that the state allows.

2143
02:56:19,870 --> 02:56:22,110
And this is, this is in town code, correct?

2144
02:56:22,110 --> 02:56:24,250
This is the state code.

2145
02:56:24,370 --> 02:56:25,330
This is from state code.

2146
02:56:26,470 --> 02:56:29,850
So the first column there of Virginia code, maximum.

2147
02:56:30,230 --> 02:56:32,250
That's the max allowed in the state code.

2148
02:56:32,410 --> 02:56:36,610
And then it works as draft ordinance as it were proposing in the new zoning ordinance.

2149
02:56:37,550 --> 02:56:38,650
Thank you.

2150
02:56:42,250 --> 02:56:43,470
First of all.

2151
02:56:44,350 --> 02:56:45,190
Keltsman Kaskin.

2152
02:56:45,310 --> 02:56:46,270
I got to have the thumb rest of all.

2153
02:56:46,330 --> 02:56:47,270
Whose idea this was.

2154
02:56:48,590 --> 02:56:49,010
But.

2155
02:56:50,010 --> 02:56:51,010
Look in the end.

2156
02:56:51,510 --> 02:56:54,210
The whole point of this conversation wasn't to be over.

2157
02:56:54,210 --> 02:56:59,050
trying to be overly punitive as opposed to trying to discourage what we sometimes perceive

2158
02:56:59,050 --> 02:57:06,170
is consistent, bad behavior. Because the low level of fines simply was not much of a deterrent

2159
02:57:06,790 --> 02:57:11,510
for certain individual scratches, do things knowing that there was not much of an expense

2160
02:57:11,510 --> 02:57:17,650
in the end. I guess we're going to have to wait and see what legislature does. It's a short

2161
02:57:17,650 --> 02:57:22,390
session whether or not they will get to this or other jurisdictions that probably don't have this

2162
02:57:22,390 --> 02:57:24,710
We're going to have any sympathy for us whatsoever.

2163
02:57:26,250 --> 02:57:35,150
So I will say I had a conversation with folks from the city of Richmond who seemed to have some interest in this.

2164
02:57:35,630 --> 02:57:36,990
So I don't think we're alone.

2165
02:57:37,230 --> 02:57:37,730
Oh, good.

2166
02:57:38,030 --> 02:57:39,050
I don't think we're alone.

2167
02:57:40,550 --> 02:57:42,730
But ultimately, you're right.

2168
02:57:42,770 --> 02:57:49,530
Councillor Stranger, it will require some action by the state before we can exceed the dollar amounts.

2169
02:57:49,530 --> 02:57:50,470
Yeah, exactly.

2170
02:57:50,650 --> 02:57:55,230
And again, I tried to lay out the few things that we could do if you want us to be a little

2171
02:57:55,230 --> 02:57:59,370
more aggressive and enforcement, but I don't think that's what staff desires.

2172
02:58:00,010 --> 02:58:06,390
I'm given the way that Mr. Watkins and his staff do a really good job of keeping stuff

2173
02:58:06,390 --> 02:58:10,830
from creating work for my staff, because they work through it with the property owners.

2174
02:58:11,270 --> 02:58:12,830
They get the property owners to comply.

2175
02:58:13,170 --> 02:58:19,030
We've got a few folks who don't, and then they have to talk to my staff.

2176
02:58:19,030 --> 02:58:22,410
But generally, those are few and far between.

2177
02:58:22,830 --> 02:58:25,010
And I understand that completely and again,

2178
02:58:25,310 --> 02:58:28,090
it's not an effort to be generally heavy-handed.

2179
02:58:28,350 --> 02:58:31,470
But when it deserves that kind of attention

2180
02:58:31,470 --> 02:58:33,470
that I think we should be more firm

2181
02:58:33,470 --> 02:58:38,330
in our approach in certain situations, you brought up something,

2182
02:58:38,870 --> 02:58:41,270
and it was discussed at the VML.

2183
02:58:41,730 --> 02:58:45,010
What is there's a legal term, and this is actually

2184
02:58:45,010 --> 02:58:53,110
was brought up hopefully for consideration by state legislature when you have a change of ownership.

2185
02:58:54,870 --> 02:59:00,390
And so you have basically a transfer of the same facts from one owner to the other,

2186
02:59:01,130 --> 02:59:06,850
why you shouldn't have to go back to square one to re-establish a case. What is I can't remember

2187
02:59:06,850 --> 02:59:14,990
legal term for that. I don't want to put you out of the spot either. What you're describing

2188
02:59:14,990 --> 02:59:23,290
is if something is, for example, like a tax lien, that's a record. So that's in the land records

2189
02:59:23,290 --> 02:59:28,490
and when someone does their title search when they buy the property, they're on notice of that.

2190
02:59:28,910 --> 02:59:36,810
So it basically follows the conveyance. It's of record. So I think what I was suggesting

2191
02:59:36,810 --> 02:59:46,630
in my comments there was that if the unpaid violations became a lean like an unpaid tax

2192
02:59:46,630 --> 02:59:59,030
would, then the purchaser is on notice because it's in the land records that this is a

2193
02:59:59,030 --> 02:59:59,910
and stop the shaker.

2194
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:07,580
Please, just be great. But I can't remember the term. Okay. Maybe I can find it for you. All right. Well, I'm going to have to talk to anybody about that.

2195
03:00:07,980 --> 03:00:18,700
Thanks. Thank you. Thanks, Chris. I want to go back a little bit and kind of refresh my memory of the genesis of this topic.

2196
03:00:18,700 --> 03:00:27,480
But I thought I recall that this was brought up in a work session as if there was a problem

2197
03:00:28,360 --> 03:00:29,700
that needed some resolution.

2198
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:38,200
When asked, staff gave a couple of recent examples that my perception was that staff felt

2199
03:00:38,720 --> 03:00:46,720
the way the issue was handled, the tools staff had available to them, there was still a gap

2200
03:00:46,720 --> 03:00:51,160
in terms of applicant behavior.

2201
03:00:52,220 --> 03:00:58,200
So one was, I think I recall, a couple of stop work orders were issued, but we're ignored.

2202
03:00:59,980 --> 03:01:05,000
And resolving that was considered unsatisfactory.

2203
03:01:06,060 --> 03:01:11,880
And so what we did, Chancellor Wilt, was we sort of bifurcated our discussion into two pieces,

2204
03:01:12,880 --> 03:01:16,380
a discussion in open session regarding, here's what we do.

2205
03:01:17,220 --> 03:01:22,740
Here's the things we can potentially ask for from both the town or assembly, and things

2206
03:01:22,740 --> 03:01:29,480
we could potentially do differently generally, and then we have closed section where we

2207
03:01:29,480 --> 03:01:35,460
would talk about specific cases, because my advice was to not talk about specific cases that

2208
03:01:35,460 --> 03:01:43,380
were still ongoing in open section, because that's contrary to the legal advice that I get.

2209
03:01:43,380 --> 03:01:49,340
So that I think is how we've tried to bifurcate the issue.

2210
03:01:49,940 --> 03:01:52,300
So those couple of issues, there were specific.

2211
03:01:53,440 --> 03:01:57,880
I'm not quite drawing a specific line between

2212
03:01:57,880 --> 03:02:02,380
a recommendation that you feel would satisfactorily, for example,

2213
03:02:02,580 --> 03:02:07,560
have prevented or mitigated those couple of, which are the rare

2214
03:02:07,560 --> 03:02:08,400
I agree just cases.

2215
03:02:09,140 --> 03:02:13,620
What are the specific recommendations that we think we should pursue?

2216
03:02:16,900 --> 03:02:23,100
Again, I feel like if we're in a situation where the zoning administrator feels as if he's

2217
03:02:23,100 --> 03:02:32,180
not getting compliance with a situation that is egregious, then he would come to me and we

2218
03:02:32,180 --> 03:02:33,980
would discuss getting a temporary restraining order.

2219
03:02:34,300 --> 03:02:38,940
I think that's sort of the biggest hammer in our talk in our toolbox that we could use.

2220
03:02:38,940 --> 03:02:46,920
Okay, and that's a tool that was available, so it could have been used in those cases as you would just say, if it wasn't chosen.

2221
03:02:47,640 --> 03:03:02,280
Yeah, I believe, as I was just in my opinion, but there was enough, enough back and forth with staff and enough attempted cooperation that we never really got to the point where we talked about doing a temporary restraining war.

2222
03:03:02,540 --> 03:03:04,440
But that tool was available to us.

2223
03:03:04,440 --> 03:03:14,240
But we also feel that the increased fines would be, you know, another tool if, and it might be more meaningful.

2224
03:03:16,540 --> 03:03:23,640
So as specifically on the options page, the one that you recommend pushing forward with is,

2225
03:03:23,640 --> 03:03:31,060
If the general assembly bites, then yes, I feel like the current finds out for not attention.

2226
03:03:31,280 --> 03:03:35,680
With the property values up here, I think they're too low.

2227
03:03:36,460 --> 03:03:40,840
Or would be the word that would prevent that behavior?

2228
03:03:42,080 --> 03:03:42,920
It's a disincentive.

2229
03:03:43,540 --> 03:03:48,020
Okay, so do we have that already actively on our?

2230
03:03:48,040 --> 03:03:48,300
Yes.

2231
03:03:48,780 --> 03:03:50,680
Let's say who is pursuing that?

2232
03:03:50,680 --> 03:04:03,590
We have met with members of two, I believe two or three, and we have our legislative delegation and have brought that up each time.

2233
03:04:05,690 --> 03:04:08,230
So, we're waiting to hear if we get some traction back.

2234
03:04:08,430 --> 03:04:08,610
Okay.

2235
03:04:08,810 --> 03:04:10,310
We've discussed that specific issue.

2236
03:04:10,670 --> 03:04:11,610
We don't know if they're waiting.

2237
03:04:12,110 --> 03:04:13,170
Success on that front.

2238
03:04:13,870 --> 03:04:20,050
So, in interim, then the current posture is that

2239
03:04:21,690 --> 03:04:31,010
The assertiveness or the timeliness in which we pursue restraining orders is the tool in the toolbox of choice.

2240
03:04:31,670 --> 03:04:34,950
And when Mr. Watkins tells me he needs me to go get one, I'll go get one.

2241
03:04:35,430 --> 03:04:36,490
All right. Thanks, gentlemen.

2242
03:04:42,100 --> 03:04:43,280
Is there a motion to adjourn?

2243
03:04:45,000 --> 03:04:45,400
What's the matter?

2244
03:04:45,960 --> 03:04:47,440
So we have closed session.

2245
03:04:54,250 --> 03:04:56,810
It's your progative if you want to continue with them or not.

2246
03:04:56,810 --> 03:04:59,890
You can skip it if you want, but we have, but we have, they're not urgent.

2247
03:05:02,380 --> 03:05:27,360
We'll proceed with the section 2.2-711-A7-and-8 if a kind of Virginia that's released for a ten council convene and closed meeting for the purpose of consultation with legal council and staff regarding a potential litigation and a provision of legal advice related to zoning matters and consultation with legal council and briefing by staff members regarding specific legal matters of all the encouragement on the town owned Air Force property. Is there a second?

2248
03:05:27,360 --> 03:05:29,740
I want to say...

2249
03:05:29,740 --> 03:05:30,120
First.

2250
03:05:35,140 --> 03:05:35,740
Renée's.

2251
03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:36,500
Yeah.

2252
03:05:37,640 --> 03:05:38,500
You need to know who...

2253
03:05:41,550 --> 03:05:42,110
You gotta be joined.

2254
03:05:46,970 --> 03:05:47,270
Bye.