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My name is Robert Vice. I'm chairman of the Landmarks Commission. And presently, we are joined by commissioners

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Pondis, Dutric, Haskins, Blue, Stottman, and that may be an, oh, yeah, anamidi, sorry.

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So and I understand that Commissioner Wheater's honors way she has called in and I think

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we're expecting a couple of others as well.

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So we will, our agenda today has a couple of items on it.

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Some routine we need to approve, review and approve the minutes from our last meeting

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in June and then we have a public we will then move into a public hearing on a designation

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request for a local landmark if we ever the commissioners want to take a minute and review

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the minutes from June we can do that and then if there aren't any comments we'll accept

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a motion to correct or amend and if not we'll accept a motion to approve and we've now

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I've been joined by Commissioner Wheater.

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We also had received requests from Commissioner Kurt Storfer and Owen to be excused absences

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and while we're reviewing those we can all accept a motion to excuse those two absences.

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So moved and a second.

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Thank you all in favor, please say aye.

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Thank you.

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Motion is approved.

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But

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the minutes be approved as submitted.

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A second.

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Okay, thank you all in favor, please say aye.

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Any opposed?

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Thank you, the motion is approved, the minister approved.

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We are now ready to move into our next item of business, which is a public hearing for

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the designation of the Powell Smith House.

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The public hearing date was set on July 18, 2016 by the Commission Chair and accordance

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This was Section 32-260-D2 of the Metro Court code of ordinances.

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This decision was made following a review of the recommendations from the Commission's committee on local landmark and preservation district designation special meeting on July 11th, 2016 is required by Section D2 to receive testimony and consider the question of designation of the Powell Smith House as an individual local landmark.

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The action was taken pursuant to the requirements of Section 322-60 of the Metro Code of Ordnances entitled Designation of Districts and Local Landmarks, as amended in August of 2012, which requires a commission to conduct a study and hold a public hearing after it receives a written request of an owner or owners of a structure or property or a petition requesting designation containing the verified signatures and addresses of no fewer than 200 residents.

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of Louisville Metro and provided that at least 101 of those verified signatures and addresses

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are residents or property owners within one of the following boundaries. One, a one mile radius

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to the council district in which the proposed landmark is located or three, the cumulative area

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formed when the boundaries of one and two are combined. A petition meeting these requirements was

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received on June 10th, 2016, and subsequently verified on June 16th, 2016.

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Notice of this public hearing was duly published in the Courier Journal in accordance with

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chapter 424 of the Kentucky Revised Statutes on August 6th, 2016, being at least 7 and

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not earlier than 21 days before the date of this hearing.

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Additionally, further requirements of the Metro Court of Ordnance's 32 to 60, D2, notice

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was sent to the required and applicable subsection, persons listed in subsections eight, excuse me eight

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through each of that ordinance. Additionally, Assign was posted on the property proposed for landmark

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designation no less than 14 days prior to the public hearing. I would like to ask Cynthia Johnson to

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present the draft designation report. Good morning, Cynthia.

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Good morning, commissioners.

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My part of the

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The staff has reviewed the petition received on June 10, 2016 to determine that they contain

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at least 200 signatures of Louisville Metro residents, with at least 101 names being

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residents or property owners of District 8, as required by the ordinance. Per section 32.260d2,

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the commission chair directed staff to prepare a draft designation report on June 17, 2016.

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Staff has drafted a preliminary findings concerning the Powell Smith House qualifications

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for designation.

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The draft designation report was prepared and published on the Planning and Design

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website within 18 days of the petition's submittal.

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The report was published on June 27, 2016.

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The pre-hearing conference section 32.260d2 was held on July 11, 2016.

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The published notice of this public hearing also included an address for the Louisville

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Metro Planning and Design Services website, which posted information on the following subjects.

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Local preservation districts and individual landmarks, design guidelines, national

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registered districts and national historic landmarks, and an application for a certificate

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of appropriateness.

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Additionally, the homepage link provided in electronic form a notice of the public meeting and draft

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designation report prepared in accordance with the landmark's designation provisions of

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We'll go ahead into the presentation of the draft report,

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of course obviously the location

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in of the property is here is in the Hayfield Dundee area of the upper ironwinds.

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It's at 2833 Tremont Drive and see the of course Bardstown Road is here and this is the

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water sin, there's Farmington, there in Gardner Lane Shopping Center over here,

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it's for

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your orientation.

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It's an aerial view of the property to give you a sense of the parcel.

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It was subdivided last year and it's a minor plat, so this parcel is actually not under consideration

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for the designation.

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It is this parcel here.

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This is the north facing facade, roughly speaking.

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This would be the south side where the pool area is, the east over here and the west side

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here, so that just to give you some orientation as we go through the photographs of what the

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actual house looks like. We'll go ahead and do that. This is a view looking at the north elevation,

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looking south.

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Here's a closer up view of the north elevation, which is the orientation of the main

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entrance at the current time.

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It is a federal style building that does have craftsman bungalow,

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colonial revival neoclassical elements to it over time as it added. It shows a kind of a

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northeast orientation and you can see the octagonal addition over here.

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It's a close-up view of that.

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Some of the different types of windows that these are casement windows here.

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There's a view of that octagonal addition,

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and this is on the west side of the house.

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And then this is the south elevation.

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There's the octagonal addition on this side.

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There is a doorway over here.

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This is the 1870s carriage house.

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It was built obviously after the period of the initial construction of the house.

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And then this is the swimming pool, it's located in the backyard.

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So come in some of the high points about this property, I know you've read the designation

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report, but just to kind of go through kind of the major themes about this property, it's

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first that it is related to early development, suburbanization, along Bart's Monroe corridor,

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that Bardstown Road turnpike being a major link between downtown Louisville and to the farm areas south and

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south to Bardstown obviously and as the development in the early 1800s occurring there were a lot of

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farms of course Farmington being there around 1810 so to see this land subdivided in 1830s is an

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an interesting development as far as thinking that downtown Louisville is about two miles

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away and there's suburbanization starting to occur in this area. There are lots. This

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is the Ward Place plat. They were divided into 40 acre plates. And so the property that

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Strupal developed was lot number 10. This is the 1859 atlas. So it's a little bit later that

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is subdividing but there's this and the property was likely speculatively developed that Mr.

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Powell had put an advertisement in the paper after he built the structure on the site and

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advertised it as either an institutional use or a dwelling space so or dwelling but had

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had enough property on it that there would be orchards and other land use development going

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on that property. And then this is the 1879 atlas, right around here where it's this glazed

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book, is where the property is. So you can see that there's increased development in

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this whole area of Bardstown Road. That's occurring by the late 19th century.

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And then this is

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into the 20th century. I'm probably not going to see where my property is. Here it is.

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So this

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This is the property here.

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Tremont drives, it was not shown yet, it's going to be developed along here.

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So imagine the parcel actually didn't have Tremont by sifting it a little bit later.

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And here's when the later suburbanization starts occurring and there's Tremont.

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This is the property here.

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It's still a larger parcel, it's about 20 acres at this point.

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So it will further be cut down to two acres and then the property that's under the consideration

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for the designation is less than an acre, so that is a correction in your draft designation

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report.

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It's not the full two acres.

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Bishop Smith is a person associated with the property and he's the first Episcopal Bishop

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for Kentucky.

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He also was the third superintendent of public schools in Kentucky and he operated and

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in the first in Lexington and then here in Louisville,

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some school spokesman here for girls.

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Calorama is the school that was associated

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with the site that we're looking at today.

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There was a study that he had also on the site right here.

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There were letters and talking about the students

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being at the property.

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They've likely lived in the first story and then studied.

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And so the study is associated

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related with the Bishop Smith's running of the school.

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This study is no longer located at the site, so it is relocated, but it's still intact

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in a different place.

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Here's a photograph, a stork photograph.

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Notice that the octagonal addition was on purers and now has a masonry foundation and is enlarged

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from what it is today. I mean, it has been in large today on what it was. This, another photograph,

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close up from the school period, and just to talk about, let's see, the proposed boundary

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again, is this parcel here, not the full parcel since it was the minor plat.

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Just to go through,

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I wanted to also address integrity as well that the building was built as a

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federal style structure. It does have alterations for the craftsman style from

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from the... really...

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20th century. It wasn't considered for integrity of craftsmanship, but it was considered for integrity

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of location, which it still has the same location. The materials are intact as far as the

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basic framework of it, but it does have diminished integrity of design, feeling and association

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due to those craftsman architectural style changes.

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Also for this site has been reduced over time

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in the suburbanization of the area.

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So it is obviously no longer the 48 or a lot

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that it was originally.

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So it's a consideration as far as that aspect

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of the significance.

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And I'll go through the designation criteria as well.

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It does meet a, its character and interest or value

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as a part of the development or heritage of Louisville Metro Jefferson County and the Commonwealth

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or the nation is representative and to Bill and period in Jefferson County.

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The palace, Smith House constructed in circa 1836, relates to a significant period in the

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development of Jefferson County.

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This is a period when the urban core is growing and increased development along Louisville

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Bard's town term bug is occurring.

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It meets B. It's an exemplification of the historic aesthetic, architectural, archaeological, prehistoric

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or historic archeological, educational, economic,

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or cultural heritage of Louisville and Jefferson County

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in the commonwealth where the nation.

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I should go back and say something about the archeology,

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do you mind if I skip back?

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If the archeology on this site, of course,

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it relating to that early development

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along Bart's Town Road and the types of properties

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of farm properties and early suburban properties,

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is likely yield a lot of archeological information.

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So there are other properties around Jefferson County

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that have been surveyed archeologically over time.

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This is a parallel property too.

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So it does have archeological,

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likely to yield archeological significance as well.

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That is in the report.

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So back to be, the house is associated

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with the Girl School established by Bishop Smith,

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known as Calorama.

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The site is likely to yield significant archeological

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information about the antivellum period of development, including a possibility of enslaved

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person's dwellings. It does not meet C, which is location as the site of a significant

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historic event. There were many identified. D, it's identification with a person or person

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who significantly contributed to the culture and development of Louisville, Metro, Jefferson

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County, the Commonwealth, or the nation. Bishop Benjamin Bosworth Smith was the first

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state government and served as superintendent of public schools for the state of Kentucky.

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It does not make e. It's embodiment of distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type

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or specimen. It does not meet f. It's identification as the work of an architect, landscape, architect,

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or master builder whose individual work has influenced the development of Louisville Metro Jefferson

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County, the Commonwealth, or the nation. It does not meet g. It's embodiment of elements

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or architectural design details, materials, or craftsmanship, which represent a significant

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architectural innovation.

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It meets age, its relationship to other distinctive areas, which are eligible for preservation

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according to a plan based on its historic cultural architectural motif.

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The palace in the palace is enclosed proximity to Farmington, which is an early example of

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federal architecture in the area.

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Palace in the palace is a surviving example of the development in the area as a suburban

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development rather than a plantation house. This shift in land used indicates the growing

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development of Jefferson County is an urbanized area. 2011 Kentucky Historic Resources Survey

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Form indicating that the building is eligible for listing the National Register of Historic

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Places as part of a group of multiple resources and to clarify what that means. This area was subject

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to a survey in 2010. There was a 20th century survey that was conducted and this neighborhood

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was surveyed at the people doing that work.

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We're looking at properties that have been early dwellings

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that become enveloped around suburban 20th Century

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development.

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So there are a number of these properties in this vicinity.

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So that's what they mean when I say it's part of a group

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is that it's related to those multiple resources.

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It's not that it was, so there's a distinction as far as

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it's not the individual eligibility it's part of a group.

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And

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it meets I, its unique location or physical characteristics representing an established

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and familiar visual feature, which reinforce the physical continuity of a neighborhood

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area or place with the Louisville Metro.

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The house was constructed in 1836 by Dr. Powell and sold as a speculative property.

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It represents an early example of community development.

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It is a surviving example of the settlement period in Jefferson County along Broughtton-Barthstone

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Road.

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And that's my report.

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If you have any questions, be happy to answer them.

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Thank you, Cynthia.

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Before we take any questions from commissioners,

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I would like to note that we've been joined

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by two additional commissioners, Jones and Hartman.

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00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:36,190
And I think that's, oh, good.

232
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:39,510
And as I speak, we're also joined by Commissioner Jackson.

233
00:20:40,050 --> 00:20:40,230
Good morning.

234
00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:42,550
Are

235
00:20:47,610 --> 00:20:51,970
there any questions for Cynthia from the commissioners?

236
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,580
I do have a couple of questions just to help me get oriented.

237
00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:11,660
I am having a hard time reconciling the orientation of the 1911 photo, which if you, since

238
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:17,000
there's writing on it, I know it can't be reverse negative, like we didn't flip it.

239
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,200
but that octagonal addition is in the front right.

240
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:27,180
But when you look at the North elevation and addition,

241
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,380
if it's the same one I don't know, is in the rear left.

242
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,120
So is the, so is the octagonal addition in the 1911 gone

243
00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:41,980
and is the addition in the modern photo, a newer addition.

244
00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:48,520
Looking at the building evidence, the modern edition, the octagonal edition that's there

245
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,860
now, I mean, of course, first of all, there's the change in the foundation that was on

246
00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:55,960
peers here, and then it's on this brick foundation now.

247
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,700
It also, let me get to that picture.

248
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:06,620
If you see in this picture, the sort of the plane of the facade and this window here appear

249
00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:09,160
to be basically in the same plane.

250
00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:18,080
But when you consider that they and this photo there's a

251
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:24,720
screen porch that projects out and this wall meets that it's no longer flush with the original

252
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:30,120
masonry wall. So my read on the building is that that addition has been changed.

253
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,420
I think it's a different addition.

254
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,260
I mean, it's on the wrong side of the house.

255
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,900
I mean, unless that's the old front of the house.

256
00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:38,580
Right, which is the other possibility,

257
00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:43,660
as far as did this orientation change of this house.

258
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,740
There are two doors, there are two, it's a central passage,

259
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,840
so it has two federal style entrances on each side.

260
00:22:53,580 --> 00:22:57,520
The staircase is oriented towards the entrance on this side.

261
00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:05,160
So, when you walk in on the north elevation, the staircase is facing the back door, what's

262
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:05,800
now the back door?

263
00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:07,140
So, there are questions.

264
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,640
I talked to the person that did the survey form as well, Janie Rice's brother about

265
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,720
that, because looking at the building, I was trying to figure out what is the orientation

266
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,120
of this.

267
00:23:18,260 --> 00:23:23,740
And, she said that sometimes federal staircases would be oriented to the back like that, you

268
00:23:23,740 --> 00:23:30,760
seen that before, but she didn't have a distinct conclusion herself about which was the original

269
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:39,080
facade. But in the last photograph, of course, when there's chimneys here, and then in this

270
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:46,720
last picture, there's a chimney here. So it's in the backside, and there's another chimney over here

271
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:53,100
on this side, I don't know, on the current building, but, you know, it looks like that

272
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:58,940
could be the original facade, this is the south facing facade, but it's, it's debatable.

273
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,280
In other words, this would have faced the pool.

274
00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:01,940
Yes.

275
00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:03,160
Is that what you're suggesting?

276
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:04,220
Right.

277
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:11,960
But I also take your point that the, if that is, that if we are looking at the south facade

278
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,780
in the modern photograph. That addition has certainly been changed because as you said,

279
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,020
it extends now beyond the porch and the porch extends beyond the facade.

280
00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:22,960
Okay,

281
00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:27,680
thank you. That's

282
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:36,740
helpful. Is the facade still brick? Yes. It's a common bond. You mentioned some modern window openings,

283
00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:40,160
do you know offhand? And as soon as the dormers are also added.

284
00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:44,360
Right. Yeah. The dormers are added on this facade.

285
00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:48,440
Obviously there's been some changes in the window patterning here

286
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,340
versus what's there in the photograph.

287
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,420
You know that there's the two flanking windows and now it is

288
00:24:57,700 --> 00:25:00,420
right about this. Those windows are gone.

289
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,320
On the west elevation, those windows are intact.

290
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:09,920
In fact, there was some alteration of windows on the east elevation, on the north elevation

291
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,780
the windows are there, other than that there's a dormer on the second part of the, on the

292
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:16,180
roof line.

293
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:21,560
And it's hard to tell from the shadow, but you see where the awning is on the left there.

294
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,260
Is that wall flush with the wall, but that's inside the screen, you know?

295
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:32,640
Well, the way that there's this engaged pile-aster here, it was around root call, I can look

296
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,060
in my phone. Make sure I have I may have a closer up photo I could show you. I mean, I just can't tell if that's all part of the

297
00:25:38,060 --> 00:25:45,100
property. I'll be able to clarify that aspect for us. Okay. All right. Well, thank you. I'm just trying to figure out which side is it.

298
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:53,220
There's been such so many alterations. It's hard to tell which was the original front of the house. Right. All right. Any other questions?

299
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:09,680
question about the windows the the windows were original on I mean obviously not

300
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,180
all of them are but right but on the main facade or the main facades on the

301
00:26:14,180 --> 00:26:18,920
north elevation exactly the button pattern as well yes so it had it so it was a

302
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,900
single light on the bottom sash originally six the six over one there you just

303
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:31,900
can't see it because of the screen. Yeah. So it's still six over six. On the front on the north elevation, I'll verify that for you.

304
00:26:32,180 --> 00:26:32,520
Okay.

305
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:49,540
I guess I do have another. Well, I tell you what, I'll hold the question when we get into more discussion, but I suppose at this point, are there any other

306
00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:56,140
questions of commissioners before we hear from the petitioners and the homeowner.

307
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:04,740
Okay, I think perhaps at this point, then, Cynthia, unless you have anything else to add, we'll go ahead and move into the public testimony.

308
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,200
Okay, that's fine.

309
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,120
First, I'd like to recognize Ted Stone, representing the petitioners.

310
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:19,010
Yeah, sure.

311
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:22,130
Yeah, if you just identify yourself with the record, thank you.

312
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:25,770
Good morning, my name is Ryan Fenwick, attorney for the petitioners.

313
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:26,710
The

314
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,700
Powell Smith House is an exceptional link to this county's history.

315
00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:39,020
I'm here this morning representing over 800 signatories to the petition asking this

316
00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:43,680
commission to review whether this structure is historically significant enough to be designated

317
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:44,380
as a landmark.

318
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,140
Obviously, only a small fraction of them could be here this morning, but it's 9 o'clock

319
00:27:50,140 --> 00:27:51,920
on a Thursday, so we're doing pretty good.

320
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,480
The commission has an opportunity today to save this unique property for future generations

321
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,440
of the city and it's very important that they take this opportunity and allow the needs of the

322
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,920
many, both today and the county and the future residents of our county, toutway the needs of the few.

323
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:16,100
Despite some later additions, the house remains an excellent specimen of its style.

324
00:28:16,740 --> 00:28:21,480
Its location and the history behind how it was built and how it remains standing today

325
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:27,760
is an important part of what makes this building historical. The property meets numerous

326
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,580
interest criteria that the commission has been asked to consider this morning.

327
00:28:31,420 --> 00:28:35,120
The structure represents the development of the county along the Bardstown Road Turnpike.

328
00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:40,100
It's the transition from a plantation style of development along the Turnpike to a suburban

329
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:41,640
style development along the road.

330
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,560
The building also is the side of a historical girl's school.

331
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:53,140
This school, this school educated many young women from important families in the city at

332
00:28:53,140 --> 00:28:56,440
at a time when education for women was necessarily

333
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,240
provided by such boarding schools.

334
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,860
The building also, and underneath the parcel,

335
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:07,260
there were likely to be many important architectural details.

336
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:09,740
In fact, there's even anecdotal evidence

337
00:29:09,740 --> 00:29:12,580
that the Underground Railroad tunnels

338
00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:14,060
connected to this property.

339
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:17,680
Furthermore, the buildings identified

340
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,080
with Bishop Benjamin Smith, who was the first

341
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,020
Episcopial Bishop of Kentucky.

342
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,640
Mr. Smith was a man who rode for over 40 years in a saddle

343
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040
across a primitive Kentucky spreading

344
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,060
his Episcopial faith across the state.

345
00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:35,860
Both in his role as Bishop he rode

346
00:29:35,860 --> 00:29:39,080
and also as an early superintendent of the Kentucky's

347
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,100
public school system.

348
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,300
In this role, he fought rampant illiteracy across the state

349
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:48,580
and made great strides in the history of 19th century

350
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:49,080
Kentucky.

351
00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:59,780
The house is also in close proximity to the speed's plantation house Farmington at one half-mile distance between the two parcels.

352
00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:06,400
There was quite a bit of contact between the owners of the two houses, and without a doubt, Bishop's

353
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,880
speed influenced what happened on Farmington. Finally, the house is unique in the area

354
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:20,480
and familiar to neighborhoods. Already, just in this process, 800 signatories have come

355
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,960
together to ask this commission to save the house. People recognize the house, and the more

356
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,340
they learn about it the more significant it becomes to people as an indicator of where

357
00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:38,040
the counties come from. So the research done just to prepare for this petition has already

358
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,020
been elucidating for many of us including myself who's learned important facts about the past

359
00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:48,060
of Louisville Jefferson County. So I'd like to ask today that the Landmark Commission landmark

360
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:52,880
this property and protect it for the future. I'd like now to ask Mr. Smith to come up

361
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,640
and present the details of this petition.

362
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,780
Thank you, and if you would identify yourself

363
00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:00,640
for the record, thanks.

364
00:31:00,820 --> 00:31:01,920
I'm Bishop Smith.

365
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,560
No, I'm Ted Stone.

366
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,920
I had a handout, or a handout, and I

367
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,080
wanted to put the map up, because it's kind of instrumental.

368
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:12,520
Maybe with the handout, you can look at it as we go.

369
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,220
So I am Ted Stone.

370
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,260
I appreciate the opportunity to come.

371
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,280
I'm a neighbor.

372
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,080
I'll admit that.

373
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,960
And it was a history major actually many years ago.

374
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:54,160
but you know this thing we got into it and it's just everything we dug into it was more,

375
00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,420
not less. I mean they're dead ends but it was pretty curious and lightning experience to

376
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:11,220
to go into this. So for starters, Kalorama, I think the south side is the old front because Kalorama

377
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:17,620
means beautiful view. And if you look out to the south, you would have seen the hill descending

378
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,620
and what became orchards and so forth.

379
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,660
A little bit of serendipity, my wife started looking

380
00:32:28,660 --> 00:32:38,840
into Bishop Smith and fortunately his name was Bosworth. So when you go looking, you don't want

381
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,000
a bishop Smith, you want a bishop Bosworth Smith, and sure enough she found

382
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:52,160
an old bit for a guy in Savannah, Benjamin Bosworth Smith, who had died just a

383
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:59,180
few years ago. Checked him out, his descendant, the bishop's descendant is Burton

384
00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:05,320
Smith, who lives four daughters down from my mom in the Episcopal Church home

385
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,280
period of legal. So he cast a long shadow.

386
00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:19,740
How do I make this thing change?

387
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:22,060
Scroll.

388
00:33:26,010 --> 00:33:29,190
We took a more

389
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:37,570
historical perspective, I guess. I know architect, I understand the criteria to a degree, but what we

390
00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:44,270
found was history, history, history. And when we scratched more, we got more. So it was important to

391
00:33:44,270 --> 00:33:47,530
understand the relationship of this property,

392
00:33:47,710 --> 00:33:53,030
the site to the character and heritage of the area,

393
00:33:53,210 --> 00:33:55,650
not just Louisville, but the state and the US

394
00:33:55,650 --> 00:33:57,930
because of the nature of the Bishop

395
00:33:57,930 --> 00:33:59,590
as a national figure.

396
00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:04,390
And this map is indicative of a relationship

397
00:34:04,390 --> 00:34:09,110
to the adjoining properties, many of which were slaveholding,

398
00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:12,710
and not just slaveholding, but large slaveholding properties.

399
00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:23,590
So, he's, the bishop is right in the mix, pre-civil war, antebellum of all this stuff going on.

400
00:34:24,130 --> 00:34:30,330
And in the midst of that, he comes down from Lexington, establishes a girl school which is there for 20 years

401
00:34:31,930 --> 00:34:36,650
and has got to be influencing the folks around him as we'll get into.

402
00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:39,650
He was the first Episcopal bishop.

403
00:34:40,350 --> 00:34:42,010
This is one of his down in Lexington.

404
00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:44,290
He was made bishop in 1832.

405
00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:49,810
He relocated to Louisville when things in Louisville

406
00:34:49,810 --> 00:34:50,890
really started popping.

407
00:34:52,670 --> 00:34:56,110
And it may be that he did that because it was a superintendent

408
00:34:56,110 --> 00:34:56,970
of public schools.

409
00:34:56,970 --> 00:35:00,590
He was all over the state on horseback.

410
00:35:02,210 --> 00:35:05,330
Meanwhile, when he's made Bishop, he said,

411
00:35:05,330 --> 00:35:08,410
And how am I going to start churches with no ministers?

412
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:11,570
So he establishes a seminary in Lexington

413
00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:14,970
to populate the churches he's going around the state.

414
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:19,890
As not a bad record for superintendant of public instruction,

415
00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:22,510
doubling the number of students in two years.

416
00:35:23,310 --> 00:35:25,230
What kind of charismatic guy does it take

417
00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:27,630
to talk to local officials and make that happen?

418
00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:31,910
Then he becomes the ninth presiding bishop of the United

419
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:32,350
States.

420
00:35:32,350 --> 00:35:33,330
So

421
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:44,880
in 1836, we have Dr. Willem Powell, we believe, building this structure on the 40 acres.

422
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:51,640
Benjamin Bosworth Smith in Lexington, he gets named, he establishes a seminary, meanwhile

423
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,740
he's also got to make a living and he has a school, a girl school down there, and one of

424
00:35:56,740 --> 00:35:58,840
his first students is a daughter of Henry Clay.

425
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:12,000
He gets down, oh, just a side note, the longest known Episcopid in the Anglican Church.

426
00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:14,120
That rose back to Henry VIII.

427
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,280
So now he comes down to Louisville.

428
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,860
In 1837, he lays the quarter stone of St. Paul's Episcopal Church.

429
00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:26,800
This would be the second church of Louisville, after the Cathedral.

430
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:34,940
Lays the cornerstone, the speed family, and the well and power will charter members of the church.

431
00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:42,510
Then he becomes superintendent of public instruction, goes around the state and so forth.

432
00:36:43,850 --> 00:36:47,410
Calorama itself operates for 20 years.

433
00:36:49,960 --> 00:37:00,080
In his time as Bishop, he establishes more churches, more Episcopal churches in the state than exist today.

434
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,560
again this guy was no slacker.

435
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,260
I have some orientation slides which I think we

436
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:16,860
pretty well covered but you can see it's very proximate to Farmington. We

437
00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:25,740
decided early on that we would seek landmark designation not for the entire

438
00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:31,860
property but just the house property. We just didn't want to be overly ambitious.

439
00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:36,000
we understood there's infield development, it's going to happen, that's a natural thing.

440
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:41,200
And we weren't really opposed to that, but as a cultural landscape,

441
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:47,200
that's pretty instrumental as well. But we limited our analysis and

442
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:50,400
work to petitioning just for the House.

443
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:59,320
As a side note, those in the neighborhood really

444
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,580
understand what a cultural institution this was. The Ertans lived there 50 years. Easter Sunday,

445
00:38:04,580 --> 00:38:09,460
Christmas thanks given there were 50 people over there if not 80 there were cars everywhere we watch

446
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:14,800
4th of July from our front porch we didn't go downtown because they're shooting off rockets over there

447
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:23,260
on the site in the middle is a pecan tree they're not really this is the northern limit of their

448
00:38:23,260 --> 00:38:29,220
growth area but there is about a 90-foot pecan tree there there was another one until Hurricane

449
00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:41,120
night came through a few years back. And so that's a little bit of an anomaly, and I don't know how old it is, but it's very old, and couldn't possibly relate to go back to 1860.

450
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:55,720
On the right's a mulberry tree, the white mulberries and introduced species for silk production. Again, it's really old. We had one in our yard, and when it got knocked out by stormers over 100 years old.

451
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:02,480
And on the left is the sassafras grove, now in production, in the lot out front.

452
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:05,900
So if anybody needs a sassafras tree, I know where you can get one.

453
00:39:11,370 --> 00:39:15,390
This is the Hancock Cradock Platt 1834.

454
00:39:16,010 --> 00:39:20,720
It shows Dr. Lowellan's property.

455
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,880
Obviously, this is deedbook 00.

456
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,060
That tells the tale all by itself.

457
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:29,100
some

458
00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:39,160
historic context, and this is where the map, the bourbon map is instrumental.

459
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:44,360
Bashford Manor's there in 1817, 1996.

460
00:39:45,740 --> 00:39:48,980
That's the home back of the large town road.

461
00:39:49,660 --> 00:39:51,560
Trost Springs is there.

462
00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:57,160
That's the Clark home built by Fajanathan.

463
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,380
and that's where some of the stuff

464
00:40:00,380 --> 00:40:03,580
from the William and Clark expedition got sent to.

465
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:06,380
Farmington, we know about that,

466
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,100
large hemp plantation, and Daniel Dubb,

467
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:12,540
his house was likely present there.

468
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,420
So in the midst of all these large-track farms,

469
00:40:18,620 --> 00:40:21,340
plantations, they plot for speculation.

470
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,920
In 1837, there's a panic, why is there a panic?

471
00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:32,620
The president, Andrew Jackson, decides he doesn't like the bank and this goes back in time.

472
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:38,080
But he pulls all the money out of the federal bank and puts it in state banks.

473
00:40:38,380 --> 00:40:43,940
The state banks start lending wildly and speculatively.

474
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,140
And so all through this period from the time of the early plating, a lot's going on.

475
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,460
Money is flowing and pretty crazy things.

476
00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:57,280
The Turnpike gets completed in 1838.

477
00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:06,780
The 1840 and 50 census is enumerate the numbers of slaves and it's clear that, you know, it's largely a slave holding air.

478
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:13,860
Meanwhile, 1841 Lincoln comes and visits Farmington when he's on the outs with Mary Todd.

479
00:41:15,020 --> 00:41:20,200
And he goes to see his friend Joshua Speed, who is at Farmington, obviously.

480
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:28,840
We don't know whether Lincoln might have seen the bishop speak, but he might have, because

481
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,460
he did that, down at St. Paul's, which was the speed's church.

482
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:40,240
A little while later, Hayfield develops that's a little farther away from Bard's town road,

483
00:41:41,260 --> 00:41:48,020
and it was occupied by short, Charles Short, who was a world-renowned botanist.

484
00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:53,280
and I'll touch on him again in a minute but again there's just there's a whole

485
00:41:53,280 --> 00:42:00,420
web of fabric of history in this media area and and certainly when we got

486
00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:04,040
into correspondence from the time period of the speed family the bullet fan

487
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,200
they're talking slavery it's just a constant topic and here we have a guy right

488
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:19,490
in the middle of that who's anti-slavery so I'll pause here for a second here's the

489
00:42:19,490 --> 00:42:24,790
The Bray property, Farmington, the Bishop right in the middle, Daniel Dupes was the

490
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:30,210
wealthiest reported to be the wealthiest man in Jefferson County at the time.

491
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:34,490
This is Taylor'sville and Bardstown.

492
00:42:35,530 --> 00:42:37,310
The Waterson comes through here.

493
00:42:38,610 --> 00:42:40,510
This is Dr. Short's property.

494
00:42:41,350 --> 00:42:42,730
This is the Chamberlain property.

495
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:44,470
They're the descendants of Clarks.

496
00:42:45,250 --> 00:42:48,910
So you can see the historic context here.

497
00:42:52,310 --> 00:42:57,610
So in 1836, the bishop is quoted.

498
00:42:57,850 --> 00:43:00,010
He's an activist, I guess you could say it away,

499
00:43:00,210 --> 00:43:03,170
and he's interested in homicides in the violence in Kentucky.

500
00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:08,050
And his article says, he believes,

501
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:11,450
thoughts on the frequency of homicides in the state of Kentucky.

502
00:43:11,550 --> 00:43:12,770
That's the name of the article.

503
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:19,630
He starts statistics and found from these returns it appears that in 27 counties there

504
00:43:19,630 --> 00:43:27,230
have been within the last three years of homicides of every grade, 35, not only 8 convictions.

505
00:43:27,490 --> 00:43:35,830
So he's decrying the situation and he goes on to say he thinks slave holding is an instrumental

506
00:43:35,830 --> 00:43:36,830
factor in this.

507
00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:43,790
are not some of the direct influence of a system, the existence of which amongst us can

508
00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:49,770
never be sufficiently deplored, discoverable in these affairs, the phrase, are not our

509
00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:54,970
young men more hetty, violent, and imperious in consequence of the early habits of command.

510
00:43:55,590 --> 00:44:02,250
Is not in temperance more social, more inflammatory, more pugnacious, where a fancied superiority of

511
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:05,490
gentleman character, gentlemanly character is felt.

512
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:10,230
And he was not reappointed superintendant

513
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:13,350
of public instruction, because it came about

514
00:44:13,350 --> 00:44:16,530
that he was critical of a grand jury somewhere in the state

515
00:44:16,530 --> 00:44:20,310
that had no literate individual sitting on a grand jury.

516
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:24,610
And again, he was a crusader for education.

517
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:35,350
We know this because he tried to keep

518
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:40,250
on as a superintendent of public construction partly for financial reasons and he writes

519
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:46,850
Henry Clay and says, can I continue? Can't you influence the outcome of this? And he

520
00:44:46,850 --> 00:44:54,030
says, you know, if I was thrown out because I was so critical, so be it. But because my

521
00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:59,110
sacred office as long since taught me that the surest way of making an enemy is to tell the truth.

522
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:59,930
So that?

523
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:06,440
That's the kind of guy this guy was. He was not an abolitionist, a number of historical records

524
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:13,980
demonstrate that, but he did support the American Colonization Society, which was the, started

525
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,980
much earlier, Henry Clay was president for a time, Lincoln was a supporter earlier in

526
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:25,000
this career, but it basically said, it's an unfortunate state of affairs slavery and the

527
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,460
best situation, best solution is to send the slaves back to Africa. That's what the American

528
00:45:30,460 --> 00:45:37,140
Coalination Society stood for. In a book called Fifty Years of Slavery in the United States

529
00:45:37,140 --> 00:45:46,760
of America, there are a number of narrations by a former slave. Among those, he says that

530
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:53,820
one, Briscoe, who's the neighbor to the north on the map, if you see the Bergman map, was

531
00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:59,700
beating his slaves, and he was kind of the guy. If you had a recalcitrant slave, he took

532
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:04,720
it over to Briscoe, and he'd straighten it out for you. So the bishop, here's all this,

533
00:46:07,460 --> 00:46:12,940
basically, tortured one on, and he comes over, and after praying on the poor man, told Briscoe,

534
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,960
if he ever struck the man again, he prosecuted him to the fullest extent of the law.

535
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:25,080
And in

536
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:35,300
Bishop Smith was recruited a minister for St. Mark's Episcopal Church Collard and ordained

537
00:46:35,300 --> 00:46:37,840
the first black Episcopal minister in the state.

538
00:46:43,850 --> 00:46:51,470
So here we have the young man and the elderly man in his role and again on the left that

539
00:46:51,470 --> 00:46:56,470
photo was provided by his great-great-granddaughter who left here in the wood.

540
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:06,870
Looking at these pictures, you can see why the girls at the school called him Tunic affectionately.

541
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:13,710
We don't know as much about the school as we wish,

542
00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:16,770
sorry.

543
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:24,660
There were ads in the paper that we have found and we have found some correspondence

544
00:47:24,660 --> 00:47:32,720
and this notebook on the left shows the enrollment based on what's written in one of the girl's schoolbooks in 1849.

545
00:47:37,770 --> 00:47:44,850
Who's the woman behind the man? Harriet Staplesmith. She was the daughter of the

546
00:47:44,850 --> 00:47:48,250
gentleman who was the first instructor of the private law school that became

547
00:47:48,250 --> 00:47:56,150
Yale. She ran the school obviously the bishop is out running around and she's

548
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:59,870
got to be the person at home making sure everything works so she's

549
00:47:59,870 --> 00:48:04,870
corresponding with parents keeping the kitchen in order their servants and

550
00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:12,410
slaves at some point and a whole place to manage and it's no small task.

551
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:18,280
So the Bishop

552
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,200
really had a lot going on. He established more churches in Kentucky than exists today.

553
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:29,160
He was instrumental in bringing the south, the southern churches back into the fold after

554
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:35,100
the Civil War that didn't happen in other denominations. He sketched churches during

555
00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:37,160
and his travels that you can see on the right.

556
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,980
That was what was on the inside of Lansdown,

557
00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:44,260
which was that little study that Cynthia showed

558
00:48:44,260 --> 00:48:46,300
that's migrated to the Speed Museum

559
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:49,080
and then out to Francis in the fields today.

560
00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:54,620
He was responsible for establishing all these churches.

561
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,380
He's actually designated as the architect

562
00:48:58,610 --> 00:49:00,800
of the Herod'sburg Church on the left.

563
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:07,280
And he was known as the Whittling Bishop, so he did sketches, but he also did carvings.

564
00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:11,420
And he carved the altar at the Herod's Bird Church.

565
00:49:12,580 --> 00:49:14,700
So he's a many-faceted guy.

566
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:21,860
He also was responsible for the churches in Senthiana, Georgetown, and Henderson, all on the

567
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:22,720
National Register.

568
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:32,020
His grave is next to Daniel Boone, down in the Frankfurt cemetery, overlooking the Kentucky

569
00:49:32,020 --> 00:49:32,400
River.

570
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,380
His

571
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:40,280
students held him in high esteem.

572
00:49:40,780 --> 00:49:43,840
He was their guide, philosopher and friend.

573
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:50,180
He evidently was area-dite, but he had a way with the kids, and he could lead him out

574
00:49:50,180 --> 00:49:56,560
on expeditions in the local area and bring back things, and they would learn from their

575
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:57,120
studies.

576
00:50:01,390 --> 00:50:05,030
Cynthia's noted the archaeological aspect.

577
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:10,830
In fact, we know that there was a kitchen, a stable, a greenery, and a smokehouse.

578
00:50:11,610 --> 00:50:12,830
There had to have been cisterns.

579
00:50:12,930 --> 00:50:14,010
This is not on the well.

580
00:50:14,370 --> 00:50:17,230
Farmington, not on a spring.

581
00:50:17,690 --> 00:50:19,670
Farmington's on a spring, trough spring.

582
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:25,430
Most of the properties in those days were associated with the spring.

583
00:50:25,710 --> 00:50:28,730
So they had to have a large water collection system.

584
00:50:29,290 --> 00:50:32,610
To what extent that overlaps a tunnel, we do not know.

585
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:42,830
We haven't been able to look, but my wife went on a tour by Dr. Erdogan before he passed

586
00:50:42,830 --> 00:50:50,290
away a number of years ago, and he told us that the tunnels were related to the Underground

587
00:50:50,290 --> 00:50:53,910
Railroad, and he went so far as to say, one tunnel went to Bardstown Road.

588
00:50:55,670 --> 00:51:02,590
Later, his daughter said they were cemented up as a safety factor, but when we got started

589
00:51:02,590 --> 00:51:08,750
on this whole exercise. Everybody in the neighborhood, Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

590
00:51:09,090 --> 00:51:13,190
All these people came forward and they said, oh yeah, so and so he knows about those tunnels.

591
00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:19,090
It's a little confusing because there are some sewers there, like storm sewers and I know my

592
00:51:19,090 --> 00:51:24,450
daughter played in there, but I think there's more to it. And certainly there's cisterns and what

593
00:51:24,450 --> 00:51:32,170
not there. And Jeff Parr did come forward and he said he saw the entrance to a tunnel under the front

594
00:51:32,170 --> 00:51:32,510
approach.

595
00:51:36,970 --> 00:51:42,310
So ours has been primarily a concern for history. It's slipping away in every direction,

596
00:51:42,410 --> 00:51:50,230
particularly in this kind of situation. You see a lot of change downtown, but this is kind of a

597
00:51:50,230 --> 00:52:00,550
unique. We've got a house dating from the 1830s, not the 1860s, not the 1880s, the 1830s. That's really

598
00:52:00,550 --> 00:52:08,470
old. There is no competing economic interest here. It's a house. The issue is tearing down

599
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:18,050
a house to build another house. We think that is a sad state of affairs. And we believe

600
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:25,650
the history demonstrates that the landmark criteria are met. And I thank you very much for

601
00:52:25,650 --> 00:52:29,050
or the ability to present today.

602
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:30,430
Thank you very much.

603
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,140
At this point, I'd like to recognize

604
00:52:34,140 --> 00:52:37,680
the property owners, Genevieve Gillford,

605
00:52:38,060 --> 00:52:39,780
or Clifford, I'm sorry, Genevieve Clifford,

606
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,040
and I think she has counsel with her team, Heather.

607
00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:43,800
I

608
00:52:51,130 --> 00:52:52,450
am Tina Heather, and I'm the counsel,

609
00:52:52,450 --> 00:52:54,870
but I'm not speaking, Genevieve is gonna present

610
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:57,750
and Sean Clifford is gonna present.

611
00:52:57,910 --> 00:52:58,890
Okay, well thank you very much.

612
00:52:59,030 --> 00:53:00,510
And Genevieve, if you would mind

613
00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:02,370
just identifying yourself with the record, please.

614
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:02,850
Sure.

615
00:53:02,850 --> 00:53:08,430
Hello, everyone. Thank you for letting us speak. My name is Genevieve Clifford. I go by

616
00:53:08,430 --> 00:53:14,310
Jenny, so I know the papers have said Genevieve, but I go by Jenny. My husband, Sean, along

617
00:53:14,310 --> 00:53:22,310
with our two children, Jack and Caitlin, own the property on Tremont Drat. Let me start by

618
00:53:22,310 --> 00:53:26,650
saying that I'm not a public speaker in this entire situation. It's very overwhelming,

619
00:53:26,650 --> 00:53:33,730
But as the owner, I feel like it is our responsibility to talk about our property, 2833 Tremont Drive.

620
00:53:34,590 --> 00:53:37,390
The last year has been a very trying time in our family.

621
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:42,630
We have made head to make some very difficult decisions that has taken both emotional and

622
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:44,010
financial toll on us.

623
00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:46,890
So let me try to explain how we got here.

624
00:53:47,470 --> 00:53:51,670
Last August, we got word that the Tremont property was going to be listed for sale.

625
00:53:51,670 --> 00:53:57,670
We were really excited because I grew up just a block away from the house and it was

626
00:53:57,670 --> 00:54:00,170
always intrigued by that property.

627
00:54:01,930 --> 00:54:06,630
We heard from a listing agent that there were a lot of developers and contractors who

628
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:08,890
were eager to get their hands on the property.

629
00:54:09,630 --> 00:54:15,190
And so when we toured the home, he said, if you're interested, I'm encouraging you to get an

630
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:15,830
offer in quickly.

631
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,720
We liked the idea of the house, but we did recognize that there was a lot of work that needed

632
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:27,320
to be done, but we felt like we could not pass up this opportunity.

633
00:54:30,090 --> 00:54:34,790
We also know that the House was old and could immediately tell that it needed some significant

634
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:36,490
structural alterations.

635
00:54:37,370 --> 00:54:42,350
So I did check with both the listing agent and I called the preservation office to make

636
00:54:42,350 --> 00:54:45,850
sure that the House was not on the historic registry.

637
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:54,520
The sellers also did not disclose about the 2010 survey that was conducted with the House,

638
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:00,140
and they also didn't provide us any paperwork or say anything about it being

639
00:55:00,140 --> 00:55:01,680
historically eligible.

640
00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:07,720
Although we can certainly appreciate historical homes, it

641
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:12,240
was not our intention to buy one. We were just looking to create our forever home

642
00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:13,920
in an area that we love.

643
00:55:16,310 --> 00:55:19,010
We certainly would not have stretched ourselves so

644
00:55:19,010 --> 00:55:24,970
financially to that extent if there had been any restrictions or easements in the

645
00:55:24,970 --> 00:55:32,790
house. We closed on the house late last September. And over the next two months I spoke with about

646
00:55:32,790 --> 00:55:36,750
a half a dozen architects and contractors meeting them at the house, trying to figure out how we

647
00:55:36,750 --> 00:55:42,870
were going to make this house work for our family. It wasn't until we started meeting with them, did we

648
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:50,090
really realize the true condition of the house. There were major structural repairs, for example the

649
00:55:50,090 --> 00:55:53,370
kitchen slopes, that kitchen addition, that's where the kitchen is.

650
00:55:55,330 --> 00:56:00,950
And they suggested that you just remove it and rebuild it in order to get it to where

651
00:56:00,950 --> 00:56:01,550
it needed to be.

652
00:56:02,050 --> 00:56:06,970
The same with the garage, it's crumbling and they said it was unsafe and we shouldn't

653
00:56:06,970 --> 00:56:09,970
even go around it, and it too should be removed and rebuilt.

654
00:56:11,450 --> 00:56:15,590
Amongst other things we were disappointed to learn that we were unable to change the layout

655
00:56:15,590 --> 00:56:19,090
out of the house because of how it was originally constructed.

656
00:56:20,010 --> 00:56:22,850
This restricted us from being able to have that open concept,

657
00:56:22,850 --> 00:56:26,470
living family that we had desired.

658
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:31,010
All of the contractors suggested that we either add an addition

659
00:56:31,010 --> 00:56:34,310
to the back or the side of the house in order to get that

660
00:56:34,310 --> 00:56:35,430
created for us.

661
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,840
Our other main concern was the second floor.

662
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,100
That's where the bedrooms are located.

663
00:56:44,340 --> 00:56:46,200
The ceilings are only seven feet tall

664
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:53,520
and the doorways are even shorter than that and so when they came in they said

665
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,780
that the only thing we could do is to raise the roof which would change the

666
00:56:56,780 --> 00:57:03,020
look of the house something that you know everybody liked that front porch it

667
00:57:03,020 --> 00:57:08,120
wasn't enough just to bring the house up to code what we found out you know

668
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:12,080
you know we knew we'd had to add central air because it didn't have that we'd

669
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,060
have to update the heating system we later found out it cost about $800 a month

670
00:57:16,060 --> 00:57:23,120
to heat the place, updating the plumbing, electric, the expenses just kind of started

671
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:23,640
adding up.

672
00:57:24,620 --> 00:57:28,740
And it was clear after meeting with these experts that this and hearing that same thing

673
00:57:28,740 --> 00:57:32,820
over and over again, that this house was just not going to meet our needs.

674
00:57:33,620 --> 00:57:35,320
And it was going to cost a fortune to repair.

675
00:57:36,540 --> 00:57:41,920
So we created Plan V. We thought we'll try to sell the house, hoping to find someone with

676
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,160
more resources than us that could maybe invest in the property.

677
00:57:46,140 --> 00:57:51,760
The house was on the market for over six months with a well-known realtor, and we never

678
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,160
received an acceptable offer and continually heard the same thing.

679
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,760
The house needed too much work.

680
00:57:57,780 --> 00:58:02,540
And as a young working family, we certainly cannot afford to let this house sit on the market

681
00:58:02,540 --> 00:58:08,840
indefinitely, so we created Plan C. When that demolition notice went out, our lives returned

682
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:09,600
upside down.

683
00:58:10,220 --> 00:58:17,420
We had anticipated that some people in the neighborhood would be upset about our decision,

684
00:58:17,980 --> 00:58:20,320
but nothing could have prepared us for the last four months.

685
00:58:21,340 --> 00:58:26,580
We are not developers, and we did not buy this property to develop the land.

686
00:58:27,420 --> 00:58:32,440
We are not public figures and did not expect to be in the front page of the career journal.

687
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:39,280
And we certainly were not prepared for the nasty comments from strangers that have known nothing

688
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:46,580
about us or our situation. It has been a brutal four months. I've lost a lot of sleep, missed

689
00:58:46,580 --> 00:58:50,480
a lot of time with my kids that I could have been because I've been tied up in this,

690
00:58:51,220 --> 00:58:57,740
and we've suffered financially because of this delay. This process has created our tremendous

691
00:58:57,740 --> 00:59:03,460
stress on us and our children. We thought that last August that our dreams had come true,

692
00:59:03,820 --> 00:59:07,620
that we get to live in the highlands around the corner from my mom and stepfather,

693
00:59:07,620 --> 00:59:12,900
down the street from my sister and her family and within walking distance to

694
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:17,600
most of our family and friends. We could not have been happier. But that was a

695
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:23,720
year ago and that dream has turned into horrific nightmare. We have always

696
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,540
tried to make sound financial decisions based on our family and our future and

697
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,460
there were never any limitations or restrictions when we bought this property.

698
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:37,600
And as

699
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:43,560
since we were married we had a dream, we had been working towards that dream since that day.

700
00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:48,320
We both work hard and Sean especially his missed holidays and

701
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:54,520
birthdays and other events because he's trying to provide for our family and help us attain those dreams.

702
00:59:55,420 --> 00:59:59,300
Just a dream of a simple home that we can have a family

703
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:18,940
Raise our children, where we can enjoy the fun times with friends and family, and just enjoy those moments that life has blessed us with. We know that we are supported with many of those here today, and we hope that you consider us when making your decision. Thank you. Thank you.

704
01:00:18,940 --> 01:00:19,740
Yes,

705
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:32,850
Sean, do you want to speak as well again, just identify yourself with a record?

706
01:00:33,370 --> 01:00:33,530
Yes, sir.

707
01:00:37,300 --> 01:00:40,480
Can I ask a question about the order of the presentations?

708
01:00:41,740 --> 01:00:44,140
You'll go to four next and then against?

709
01:00:44,540 --> 01:00:47,500
Just as the order of the original presentation.

710
01:00:47,780 --> 01:00:47,920
Okay.

711
01:00:48,060 --> 01:00:49,080
Additional preceded.

712
01:00:49,420 --> 01:00:49,640
Right.

713
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,640
We have some people who may have to leave.

714
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,660
Is there a way you can call those when the against starts before?

715
01:00:56,740 --> 01:00:57,860
What time do they need to leave?

716
01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:58,260
11.

717
01:00:58,940 --> 01:00:59,720
I'll watch that.

718
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:01,440
and how many do you think there are that have to leave?

719
01:01:01,740 --> 01:01:02,760
Just one, I think.

720
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:04,560
Well, we'll see how the time goes,

721
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,780
and yeah, and if you've seen me forgetting that,

722
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:08,780
just lay that in the air.

723
01:01:09,060 --> 01:01:09,520
Thank you.

724
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,060
I'll let Ms. Johnson pass out our materials here

725
01:01:13,060 --> 01:01:14,280
that if you wouldn't mind,

726
01:01:14,460 --> 01:01:15,800
hit some of my talking points.

727
01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:18,520
And I want to be as respectful of your time as possible

728
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,600
so that a B is synced as possible.

729
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:24,560
Good morning.

730
01:01:24,980 --> 01:01:25,880
My name is Sean Clifford.

731
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:31,440
I'm the owner of the property on 2833 Tremont Drive and a representing wife Jenny who just

732
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:36,360
heard from my son Jack who's back there in Caitlin, Jack 7 and he's starting the second

733
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:42,100
grade at St. Agnes and Caitlin just started pre-K at Strathmore so we're very proud of them.

734
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:48,780
As Jenny noted the last few months have been very difficult time for a family and it feels

735
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:54,600
like we've had a very biased narrative directed at us or delivered against us in very public

736
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:59,680
forms. Much of the information was spread with speculative, incorrect, and even

737
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:06,720
outright lies. And we are happy today to share our story with you. And it's

738
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,560
amazing and heartwarming to see such support for us here today. We really

739
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,920
appreciate all you guys showing up and you can never thank me for everything you

740
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:18,100
all have done for us. So while Jenny told you more about our family struggles over

741
01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:22,160
the last year, I want to discuss some of the nuts and bolts of the designation

742
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:29,000
report. I want to offer alternative assumptions to claims presented in the report. I want to

743
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,380
discuss the local landmark criteria in relation to this dwelling.

744
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:40,100
So the first assumption of the report is that the property located at 2833 Tremont is the

745
01:02:40,100 --> 01:02:46,880
actual house purchased from Dr. Powell by Bishop Smith. The historical evidence behind this

746
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:47,960
is actually very weak.

747
01:02:49,220 --> 01:02:51,160
Page 4 of the designation report, so I'm

748
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:52,380
going to refer to the designation report.

749
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:53,960
Page 4 of the designation report lists

750
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,480
that pal own lot number 10, list in hand

751
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:58,700
cock and critics' plans.

752
01:03:00,340 --> 01:03:02,800
Nextuality, he owned lots 10 and 11.

753
01:03:03,740 --> 01:03:05,060
And that is why the advertisement

754
01:03:05,060 --> 01:03:09,160
he placed in Louisville Daily Journal in 1836 states 40

755
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:10,780
acres of first-rate land.

756
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,320
And just as a size reference, if we're going by our five zoning

757
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:21,220
restrictions today, 40 acres can almost encompass 300 houses at this point, so it's a very,

758
01:03:21,220 --> 01:03:27,140
very big area as my point. The house pile was advertising may have been located anywhere

759
01:03:27,140 --> 01:03:31,620
on those 40 acres, and like many other houses from that period, it could have disappeared

760
01:03:31,620 --> 01:03:37,280
at some point when the property changed hands. On page five, the designation report notes

761
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:44,200
that Bishop Smith likely resided in from 1841 to 1860, but did show that he actually purchased

762
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:46,040
just 20 acres from Powell in 1845,

763
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,080
likely running the house before buying.

764
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,040
Page 10 of the reports suggest

765
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:52,660
that the dwelling was likely constructed

766
01:03:52,660 --> 01:03:55,140
as speculative real estate by Dr. Powell.

767
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,320
In fact, Smith could have rented a house

768
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,740
anywhere on those 40 acres of Dr. Powell's land

769
01:04:02,180 --> 01:04:05,220
and then purchased 20 acres off the side in 1845.

770
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:07,920
We know from the 1840 census

771
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,280
that Dr. Powell lived somewhere on those 40 acres.

772
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:17,440
If Smith rented from Powell until 1845, and Powell lived on the property, so would likely

773
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,540
suggest that there are multiple structures somewhere on these 40 acres.

774
01:04:22,020 --> 01:04:26,180
Page 10 of the report introduces Samuel Thomas' The Architectural History of Louisville,

775
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:31,220
which identifies the dwelling structures, Colorado, and identifies it as Bishop Smith's Boarding

776
01:04:31,220 --> 01:04:31,840
School for Girls.

777
01:04:32,620 --> 01:04:35,140
He includes a photograph from 1911 that we've seen.

778
01:04:35,140 --> 01:04:45,480
The only evidence of a connection between Smith and the structure currently at 2833 Tremont is the 1911 house that is pictured as Calorama.

779
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:53,100
Of note, Samuel Thomas is the only historian that attaches the address of 2833 to Tremont on that picture.

780
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:59,360
And if you look at his sources, his source to do that is this in the 1836 advertisement I just discussed.

781
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:06,240
Reverend W. Robert Inscot, the major historian for Smith's life, also shows a 1911 picture

782
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:09,780
of Kaloram in his work, but he does not pinpoint a specific address.

783
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,720
Regardless, there is no evidence that Smith and the picture.

784
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:18,280
The house in the picture is the same as the house referenced in the 1836 advertisement.

785
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:19,680
It's complete speculation.

786
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,020
Until your point, Mr. Vice-Murler.

787
01:05:23,820 --> 01:05:28,100
Not only that, I would argue that the house in the 1911 picture is not the house currently

788
01:05:28,100 --> 01:05:29,760
currently on 28-33 Tremont.

789
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:35,460
Is it possible that alterations from the house that included tuna and porches, a modified

790
01:05:35,460 --> 01:05:40,480
roof line, a demolished and then significantly enlarged side addition, modernization of the

791
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:46,020
windows and doors, multiple dormers, alterations in the e-detail, that's possible all those

792
01:05:46,020 --> 01:05:50,260
changes occurred, but maybe the alternatives of the house pictured is not the house on Tremont.

793
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:56,600
When the base house from the picture is scaled to the actual size house, the height to width

794
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:01,220
ratio do not match. And the horizontal and vertical window spacing does not appear to match either.

795
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:07,460
The Petitioners Report and the Designation Report, as we've heard today, they suggest the 1911

796
01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:12,680
picture demonstrates the south elevation of the house. The south elevations, but we will

797
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,660
consider the back of the house today as they've already stated. If that is the case, as you

798
01:06:17,660 --> 01:06:26,580
mentioned of, you had several specific questions. Why did some of the windows disappear only to be

799
01:06:26,580 --> 01:06:29,220
all the windows changed in a house with a brick frame

800
01:06:29,220 --> 01:06:31,040
that is 16.5 inches thick.

801
01:06:31,700 --> 01:06:33,300
Was a walk-out staircase and door

802
01:06:33,300 --> 01:06:34,540
from the basement, a later addition.

803
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:36,480
That's not in the 1911 picture.

804
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:38,300
These details just don't add up.

805
01:06:38,980 --> 01:06:40,040
And where's the carriage house?

806
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,460
A structure that was reportedly built in the 1870s.

807
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,280
It's not seen in that 1911 picture from far away,

808
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,340
and it certainly would have been in the angle of view.

809
01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:52,220
So to repeat, there's no evidence the house

810
01:06:52,220 --> 01:06:55,260
in the picture is the same as that house in the 1936 ad.

811
01:06:55,260 --> 01:06:58,940
And not only that, I have significant doubt that the house in the picture is the current

812
01:06:58,940 --> 01:06:59,740
dwelling on Tremont.

813
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,560
On page 5, the designation report states that Bishop Smith sold the property to the

814
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,020
Hornsby family in 1860, and the property was an investment property for that family.

815
01:07:10,820 --> 01:07:15,980
If you look in the deed, the deed from Smith to Hornsby, Hornsby agreed to build two houses

816
01:07:15,980 --> 01:07:17,520
in the city for Smith's sons.

817
01:07:18,500 --> 01:07:23,940
We know the Hornsby family owned the property for about seven years, and if this was an investment

818
01:07:23,940 --> 01:07:28,280
property for them, and their work was actually building houses, it's certainly reasonable

819
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,880
suggests that they may have built structures on that 20 acres.

820
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,900
So again, there's no proof that the 28-33 structure is the one occupied by Smith.

821
01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:42,440
The Hornsbees are possibly builders of the house, of course that's speculation too, but

822
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:43,700
it's a reason for speculation.

823
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,820
So while the house may be old, it may have no connection to Bishop Smith.

824
01:07:49,020 --> 01:07:54,700
The second assumption of the designation report is that the 23-tremont structure is the

825
01:07:54,700 --> 01:07:57,040
actual building that housed a school called Calorama.

826
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,680
Page 10 of the designation report states that while living at the property, Smith operated

827
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,280
a private school known as Calorama.

828
01:08:06,820 --> 01:08:11,240
We know in the advertisements from the Currier Journal that when Bishop Smith sold the 20 acres

829
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:14,900
in 1860, he referenced the entire property as Calorama.

830
01:08:15,860 --> 01:08:20,280
We know that the area was slightly known as Colorado prior to the purchase of the property

831
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:25,460
as evidenced by letters from young school girls writing from Colorado Kentucky instead

832
01:08:25,460 --> 01:08:26,620
of writing from Colorado school.

833
01:08:27,940 --> 01:08:33,500
Page 9 of the report states, the 1850 census shows that not only was Smith's family residing

834
01:08:33,500 --> 01:08:36,880
in the house, but also several young girls were boarding at the house as well.

835
01:08:39,060 --> 01:08:44,840
In my report, I gave you, you see the Filsen Club records from 1849 that showed that 40

836
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:50,700
women were enrolled in the school. Certainly, at the school had 40 students. The

837
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:55,020
Tremont property could not have accommodated this large family in addition to 40

838
01:08:55,020 --> 01:09:00,120
students. As reasonable suggests, there was another structure that did not survive

839
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:05,860
at the school. So where could this school have been? When you look back to the

840
01:09:05,860 --> 01:09:08,960
historical street names in the city of Louisville, you will see that Winston

841
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,080
Avenue, which is two-box away from Tyler Lane, very close to the property, was

842
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:18,760
actually referenced as Calorama Avenue until 1938. So it seems reasonable that

843
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:22,880
the school may have been located on Calorama Avenue. Of course it's speculation

844
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,880
just as all the other arguments or speculation from their side. So while the

845
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,920
house may be old it could have no connection to Bishop Smith or the school. The

846
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:35,620
third assumption the designation report makes is that the house on Tremont was

847
01:09:35,620 --> 01:09:41,880
built in 1836. Page two of the report states this is a 1.5 story

848
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,720
in masonry structure constructed in circa 1836

849
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,420
in the federal style, except for the completely

850
01:09:48,420 --> 01:09:50,940
circumstantial evidence from the 1836 ad

851
01:09:50,940 --> 01:09:52,880
about a dwelling somewhere on the 40 acres.

852
01:09:53,740 --> 01:09:55,920
There's no evidence that the 2833 dwelling

853
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:57,560
was built in circa 1836.

854
01:09:57,780 --> 01:10:00,180
That's where the date comes from, 1836 ad from Patel

855
01:10:00,180 --> 01:10:01,140
from the William Powell.

856
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:03,560
Page 11 of the report.

857
01:10:04,260 --> 01:10:05,820
Built as a federal style structure,

858
01:10:06,140 --> 01:10:08,740
it does have visible evidence of the craftsman style

859
01:10:08,740 --> 01:10:11,180
updates that is unrelated to the period of significance

860
01:10:11,180 --> 01:10:13,200
related to Dr. Powell and Bishop Smith.

861
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,180
If you look carefully at the detail of the current house,

862
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:20,060
it actually has features that closely resemble the colonial

863
01:10:20,060 --> 01:10:24,880
revival style that's popularity rose in the latter 1800s.

864
01:10:24,940 --> 01:10:28,460
Page two of the report, there is a garage structure located

865
01:10:28,460 --> 01:10:29,800
to the southwest of the dwelling.

866
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,060
It is thought to date to the 1870s.

867
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:34,800
It is possible to the current dwelling

868
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:36,580
with features that match a popular building

869
01:10:36,580 --> 01:10:38,260
style in the late 19th century.

870
01:10:38,260 --> 01:10:40,740
could have been built circa the 1870s,

871
01:10:40,780 --> 01:10:42,160
concurrently with its carriage house.

872
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,460
Instead of assuming it was built in one style

873
01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:46,880
and then continually modified to another style.

874
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:49,240
So while the house may be old,

875
01:10:49,700 --> 01:10:51,120
it may not be as old as some suggest.

876
01:10:53,500 --> 01:10:56,060
Fourth assumption, the palace Smith house

877
01:10:56,060 --> 01:10:58,660
has a potential for containing archeological resources

878
01:10:58,660 --> 01:11:01,120
and its representative of the Antebellum period

879
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,100
of development in Jefferson County.

880
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:05,640
H-10 of the report.

881
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:07,840
Although the lot is rather small,

882
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:14,820
The remnants of domestic outbuildings and artifact middens associated with domestic activities are likely present on property.

883
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:20,540
The current property at 2331 is only 0.8 of the original 20 acres,

884
01:11:21,260 --> 01:11:24,100
whether there are any artifacts on this property is completely speculative.

885
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,200
These artifacts may have been disturbed during the property's farming days,

886
01:11:28,740 --> 01:11:31,960
when it was subdivided over and over again, when a carriage house was built,

887
01:11:32,300 --> 01:11:36,520
when a pool was built, when a large driveway was installed, et cetera, et cetera.

888
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,640
It's just as likely that artifacts exist in the backyards of any other house on Tremont

889
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:41,040
and beyond.

890
01:11:42,900 --> 01:11:43,440
Page 10.

891
01:11:44,220 --> 01:11:47,160
Some local stories suggest there are brick tunnels under the property.

892
01:11:47,580 --> 01:11:51,100
If they stand, the brick tunnels could potentially yield archeologic information.

893
01:11:51,860 --> 01:11:55,900
There's also potential for slave dwellings on sites in Spishop Smith was identified as

894
01:11:55,900 --> 01:11:59,100
owning nine enslaved African Americans in the 1850 slave index.

895
01:12:00,660 --> 01:12:02,920
There is no evidence there are tunnels under this house.

896
01:12:03,220 --> 01:12:04,320
I will tell you, there are no tunnels.

897
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,860
This is urban neighborhood legend just as there's a goat man that lives under the Pope

898
01:12:08,860 --> 01:12:09,760
lick railway trust.

899
01:12:10,860 --> 01:12:15,800
Neither history, geology, nor basic common sense support the logic of underground tunnels

900
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:17,800
extending from this house to barge town road.

901
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,680
We know the underground railway wasn't underground and it wasn't a railway, but that's besides

902
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:24,060
the point.

903
01:12:25,180 --> 01:12:28,820
In actuality, the property was surrounded by slave owners and artifacts are just as likely

904
01:12:28,820 --> 01:12:30,280
on the opposite side of Tremont.

905
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:34,620
the Hook Neighborhood, Gladstone, Winston, or any property in the area.

906
01:12:35,300 --> 01:12:42,200
And of course, if Bishop Smith's residence was at another location, then any RF acts from that era could be on adjacent lots.

907
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:50,960
Page 10 suggests that the building of the property at 2833 marks a change in land use during antebellum period of development in Jefferson County.

908
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:57,140
The plantations and farms were now being joined by smaller parcels demonstrating a move from the grain land use patterns

909
01:12:57,140 --> 01:13:00,400
to increasingly suburban development as Jefferson County and Louisville's

910
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:01,240
urban corps was growing.

911
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,300
So we know that the 20 acres of Bishop Smith, the

912
01:13:07,300 --> 01:13:12,100
Bishop Smith owned was not subdivided until 1908. It's 1908. It was still being

913
01:13:12,100 --> 01:13:18,540
farmed in 1877 as evidence by the 1877 bankruptcy auction reciting the

914
01:13:18,540 --> 01:13:23,020
fruits and trees on the property. So this is not a change during the

915
01:13:23,020 --> 01:13:27,300
antebellum or pre-civil war period in Jefferson County. It's after that period.

916
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:30,040
So

917
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:36,220
It may not be as old as the prior owner indicated and the location of any artifact from the 1830s could be anywhere on the 20 acres.

918
01:13:37,340 --> 01:13:39,760
Now I'm going to discuss an error in the designation report.

919
01:13:42,180 --> 01:13:45,140
On page two, the designation report states, a

920
01:13:45,140 --> 01:13:55,820
2010 historic resources survey form indicated that the building is eligible for listing in the national register of historic places as part of a group of multiple resources since Johnson mentioned that earlier.

921
01:13:56,460 --> 01:14:01,900
The survey is also used in the petitioner support, but the survey is misguided and reliance

922
01:14:01,900 --> 01:14:04,400
on its problematic for numerous reasons that I'll get to.

923
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,700
First of all, the survey indicates that the only source of information as to the age

924
01:14:09,700 --> 01:14:11,720
and ownership of the property was the prior owner.

925
01:14:12,380 --> 01:14:16,760
The prior owner stated that Bishop Smith was the original owner of the property and that

926
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:17,640
he built the property.

927
01:14:18,020 --> 01:14:19,700
Neither of these statements are correct.

928
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:23,800
It estimated a construction date that did not document one.

929
01:14:24,340 --> 01:14:29,800
It stated that the octagonal kitchen was a late 19th century edition, whereas the 1911

930
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:34,140
picture, if you believe that is the actual house, did not have that structure attached.

931
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:39,560
It stated that the house was built in Georgian style, while arguably it was built in a Federalist

932
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:40,640
or Colonial Revival style.

933
01:14:41,540 --> 01:14:44,840
It states that the 20-acre farm encompassed the Hook Subdivision.

934
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:45,860
This is not true.

935
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:47,660
Hook Subdivision is to the east of the property.

936
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,280
So, the final report, the summation of these surveys,

937
01:14:53,060 --> 01:14:56,540
Janie Rice-Brother, Jennifer Ryle, J. Stottman, entitled,

938
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,320
they came, they saw, they bought, the 20th Century Housing

939
01:14:59,320 --> 01:14:59,960
in the middle of it.

940
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:29,880
I will finish with a short discussion of the local landmark designation criteria, the structure

941
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:36,940
reportedly meets. Criterion A, its character, interest, or values as part of the development

942
01:15:36,940 --> 01:15:41,760
of heritage at Louisville Metro, Jefferson County, the Commonwealth of the United States.

943
01:15:42,900 --> 01:15:47,300
The draft report states that this criteria is met because the house is representative

944
01:15:47,300 --> 01:15:51,860
of the antebellum period in Jefferson County. This is a period when the urban core is growing

945
01:15:51,860 --> 01:15:55,080
and increased development along the Louisville-Barge town turnpike as a crime.

946
01:15:56,140 --> 01:16:01,800
In actuality, the change in land use of this property came after the significant period

947
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:03,780
of changes for the rest of the area.

948
01:16:04,340 --> 01:16:08,640
We know the 20 acres weren't subdivided until 1908 and we know it was a working farm until

949
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:10,580
at least the late 19th century.

950
01:16:10,900 --> 01:16:13,460
So this is not an example of Antibell and change in land use.

951
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:15,480
Criterion B.

952
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:22,100
It's exemplification of the historic, aesthetic, architectural, archaeological, prehistoric or historic

953
01:16:22,100 --> 01:16:26,920
archaeologic, educational, economic, or cultural heritage of Louisville Metro, Jefferson County,

954
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:28,980
the Commonwealth, or the nation.

955
01:16:29,340 --> 01:16:30,540
Sorry, it's a mouthful.

956
01:16:30,940 --> 01:16:34,420
The designation reports states that the house is associated with the girls school established

957
01:16:34,420 --> 01:16:35,720
by Bishop Smith, known as Colorado.

958
01:16:36,420 --> 01:16:40,540
The site is also likely to yield significant information about the antebellum period of development,

959
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,340
including the possibility of enslaved persons dwellings.

960
01:16:44,460 --> 01:16:49,800
So once again, there's no proof that this was the actual site of this school, that this

961
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:51,680
This was even the actual resonance of Bishop Smith.

962
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,540
There are reasonable alternatives as I have presented.

963
01:16:55,860 --> 01:17:01,800
Also it is speculative, the 0.8 acres, but the original 20 has any significant archeologic

964
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:02,400
information.

965
01:17:02,940 --> 01:17:03,800
Complete speculation.

966
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:07,720
It could be speculated that all dwellings and proximity to Barth's town road could have

967
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:08,240
these findings.

968
01:17:09,740 --> 01:17:10,520
Criterion D.

969
01:17:11,140 --> 01:17:15,220
It's identification with a person or persons who significantly contributed to the culture

970
01:17:15,220 --> 01:17:17,800
and development of Louisville Metro, Jefferson County,

971
01:17:18,140 --> 01:17:19,780
the Commonwealth, or the nation.

972
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,120
The designation report states, Bishop Benjamin Bosworth Smith

973
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,140
was the first Episcopal Bishop of Kentucky.

974
01:17:27,900 --> 01:17:30,060
Bishop Smith was also involved in the state government

975
01:17:30,060 --> 01:17:32,240
and served as the superintendent of public schools

976
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:33,100
from the state of Kentucky.

977
01:17:34,260 --> 01:17:36,120
We do, and looking through all this history,

978
01:17:36,260 --> 01:17:38,360
we believe that Bishop Smith was an important person

979
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,180
and religious and educational figure in the state of Kentucky.

980
01:17:42,480 --> 01:17:44,420
And he's been, he's been memorialized

981
01:17:44,420 --> 01:17:46,060
and various cities throughout the Commonwealth.

982
01:17:47,460 --> 01:17:49,660
Less the petitioners continued to insist

983
01:17:49,660 --> 01:17:51,920
he was a champion of African-Americans, he was not.

984
01:17:53,020 --> 01:17:56,120
He was a known slave owner in both Lexington and in Louis.

985
01:17:57,210 --> 01:18:00,340
He maintained nine slaves in Louis in 1850,

986
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:04,820
since he had seven females, two males, ages two to 45.

987
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,020
I'll talk about Underground Railway shit in there.

988
01:18:09,440 --> 01:18:10,980
While I believe Bishop Smith lives somewhere

989
01:18:10,980 --> 01:18:12,680
on the 20-acre plot that we've been discussing,

990
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:17,600
There's no proof that he actually lived on the structure of this currently, 28-33 Tremont.

991
01:18:18,220 --> 01:18:21,080
Or that the structure on Tremont served as a boarding school for girls.

992
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:26,440
We know that several other large antebellum dwellings nearby have not survived.

993
01:18:27,500 --> 01:18:31,740
The house on Tremont certainly may have been built after the bishop arrived,

994
01:18:32,340 --> 01:18:34,420
possibly by the horns we said it, as I discussed earlier.

995
01:18:35,540 --> 01:18:39,140
Criterion H. It's a relationship to other distinctive areas,

996
01:18:39,140 --> 01:18:44,820
which are eligible for preservation according to a plan based on an historic, cultural, or architectural motif.

997
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:50,400
The designation report states, the palace Smith House is in close proximity to Farmington,

998
01:18:50,740 --> 01:18:53,140
which is an early example of federal architecture in the area.

999
01:18:53,820 --> 01:18:59,500
The house is a surviving example of the development in the area as a suburban development rather than a plantation house.

1000
01:19:00,140 --> 01:19:04,240
This shift in land use indicates the growing development of Jefferson County is an urbanized area.

1001
01:19:05,180 --> 01:19:09,680
Funny enough, even the petitioners in their report did not argue this criterion had been met.

1002
01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:14,980
The House being close proximity to Farmington is a very weak argument for meeting this criterion.

1003
01:19:15,660 --> 01:19:21,240
If that is the case, the need dwelling on Bardstown Road, Newberg Road, Taylor's Road could

1004
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:23,880
all be considered close to Farmington and fit this criterion.

1005
01:19:24,820 --> 01:19:28,940
And we know the property was a working farm until the late 1800s that keep repeating it was

1006
01:19:28,940 --> 01:19:33,880
not subdivided until 1908, thus arguing against this role in Jefferson County's early urbanization.

1007
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:40,480
Criterion I, the unique location or physical characteristics representing an established and

1008
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:44,920
familiar visual feature of which reinforced the physical continuity of a neighborhood

1009
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:46,940
area, a place within the rural metro.

1010
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:53,300
The designation report states the house was constructed in 1836 by Dr. Powell and sold as

1011
01:19:53,300 --> 01:19:54,260
a speculative property.

1012
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:59,260
It represents an early example of community development as a surviving example of the settlement

1013
01:19:59,260 --> 01:20:01,000
period in Jefferson County, Lombard, Center.

1014
01:20:01,900 --> 01:20:07,380
Once again, even the petitioners do not consider this criterion to be applicable to the property

1015
01:20:07,380 --> 01:20:08,040
in the report.

1016
01:20:09,060 --> 01:20:12,960
And in reply to the designation report, there's no proof that Dr. Powell bought or sold

1017
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:14,400
the property is speculative to the property.

1018
01:20:14,980 --> 01:20:19,140
You know that he lives somewhere on the 40 acres and his house may have been large enough

1019
01:20:19,140 --> 01:20:23,080
to renovate and accommodate the 40 students referencing fields and club records, and that's

1020
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:25,200
in relation to Dr. Powell, not Smith.

1021
01:20:26,660 --> 01:20:29,140
Guys, thank you for bearing with me through all that.

1022
01:20:29,140 --> 01:20:30,960
I know it was a lot to sit through.

1023
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:34,480
This hearing is a vital importance to my family.

1024
01:20:35,900 --> 01:20:38,640
Implications have an enormous impact on our future.

1025
01:20:39,740 --> 01:20:41,100
We are completely invested in this.

1026
01:20:41,260 --> 01:20:41,940
This is our life.

1027
01:20:44,460 --> 01:20:47,180
While the petitioners are championing their calls to Azure,

1028
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,700
they have no skin in this game that they forced us to participate in.

1029
01:20:51,820 --> 01:20:54,600
And their arguments from a historical perspective are very weak.

1030
01:20:55,380 --> 01:21:00,560
From Powell to Smith to Hornesby to Harris to Maryweather

1031
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:07,560
to Glazedbrook, to Chase, to Curse, from the numerous owners from the 1920s to 1960s through

1032
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:13,960
the Ertems. This property has been unburdened. We purchased this property unburdened. Much

1033
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:20,080
of what lies in the designation report and links meeting to the meeting designation criteria

1034
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:27,600
is based off of assumption, speculation, folklore, and inaccuracy. In the end, this is an old house

1035
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,360
in very, very poor repair.

1036
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:33,120
Is it reasonable to retroactively take away properties rights,

1037
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:36,240
property owners rights based off speculation, assumption,

1038
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:37,040
and folklore?

1039
01:21:38,300 --> 01:21:38,720
Thank you.

1040
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:40,180
Thank you.

1041
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,900
Can I just ask a quick question?

1042
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:51,480
I assume that you were giving us a lot of information there

1043
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:53,920
and I was flipping through the handout you gave us.

1044
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,880
I assume that everything you were discussing is included

1045
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,320
in this handout so we can reference that.

1046
01:21:59,700 --> 01:22:00,720
Thank you very much.

1047
01:22:01,820 --> 01:22:07,460
Okay, we are at 10.30 and I think there's another meeting in here later today.

1048
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:08,980
What time is that next meeting?

1049
01:22:09,580 --> 01:22:10,060
1 o'clock.

1050
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:10,420
Okay.

1051
01:22:11,100 --> 01:22:14,940
Well, we have several speakers who have signed up to speak.

1052
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:20,880
And I think what we'll do is allow those, we'll move to that next.

1053
01:22:21,440 --> 01:22:26,360
As you all know, when you came in, there was a sign in slip of paper if you wanted to speak.

1054
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:42,860
and so what I'd like to do is we've got people speaking for the designation, it looks like there's a half a dozen, and I'd like to let them speak, and Tina, I'm aware of the time here, just like I said, if it gets too close to lagging.

1055
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:50,020
But let's go ahead, the first person to speak in support is Leslie Sissle, if she's here.

1056
01:22:50,020 --> 01:22:50,960
I'll

1057
01:22:57,590 --> 01:22:59,550
identify myself, Leslie Siffle.

1058
01:23:00,070 --> 01:23:04,050
I'm going to start with the remarks that I had prepared and obviously there's been

1059
01:23:04,050 --> 01:23:08,970
information presented that I didn't know until I was sitting here today, so I'm going

1060
01:23:08,970 --> 01:23:11,610
to address that after my prepared remarks.

1061
01:23:12,410 --> 01:23:17,830
And I want to start by saying that I do appreciate that there is a waiting period when an application

1062
01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:22,950
is received to demolish a structure that's eligible for the National Register of Historic

1063
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:23,450
Places.

1064
01:23:23,450 --> 01:23:28,410
I have told people during this process, nobody's doing anything illegal here.

1065
01:23:28,870 --> 01:23:33,890
The owners are allowed to request a permit to demolish, and the petitioners are allowed

1066
01:23:33,890 --> 01:23:36,490
to request that it be designated a local landmark.

1067
01:23:36,710 --> 01:23:38,650
We're all following the rules here.

1068
01:23:39,910 --> 01:23:44,850
When I first learned of the intent to demolish, I walked over to the home because I walked

1069
01:23:44,850 --> 01:23:50,170
by it many times, and my thought was, over my dead body.

1070
01:23:50,170 --> 01:23:57,810
Now, I don't want to give anybody any ideas, but that's how strong my reaction was to it.

1071
01:23:59,110 --> 01:24:04,550
As I researched the home and its occupants, my respect and my admiration grew.

1072
01:24:05,310 --> 01:24:07,010
It's almost 200 years old.

1073
01:24:07,530 --> 01:24:12,290
It has stood in the 19th, the 20th, and the 21st centuries.

1074
01:24:13,310 --> 01:24:18,570
It's a remarkable testament to the ability to adapt and to remain relevant.

1075
01:24:18,570 --> 01:24:24,150
It's clear to anyone who sees it, that it's a historical property representing a farm

1076
01:24:24,150 --> 01:24:29,930
of yesteryear, but it's been integrated into suburbia by adding current architectural

1077
01:24:29,930 --> 01:24:30,530
details.

1078
01:24:31,150 --> 01:24:36,350
It is a touchstone for the area, and it's an important link to Louisville's historical

1079
01:24:36,350 --> 01:24:36,890
heritage.

1080
01:24:37,730 --> 01:24:42,430
It exemplifies you can't know where you're going until you know where you've been.

1081
01:24:43,070 --> 01:24:49,330
It helps the young understand that what went before, it helps the young understand what

1082
01:24:49,330 --> 01:24:53,330
went before and it stores appreciation in adults.

1083
01:24:54,210 --> 01:24:58,830
I'm not the only person who had such a strong reaction to the demolition news.

1084
01:24:59,190 --> 01:25:04,770
It prompted a similar reaction in many people who had any association with the house at any

1085
01:25:04,770 --> 01:25:06,390
time and at any age.

1086
01:25:06,390 --> 01:25:07,330
I

1087
01:25:09,470 --> 01:25:15,670
mentioned the architectural details that have been added to keep it relevant as the area evolved.

1088
01:25:16,050 --> 01:25:19,870
And one of the questions early on from Mr. Vice was about the addition.

1089
01:25:20,670 --> 01:25:25,510
And the reason that addition is there, it serves currently as the kitchen.

1090
01:25:25,750 --> 01:25:31,730
When the house was built, one of the slides indicated there was a separate structure as was common at the time.

1091
01:25:31,730 --> 01:25:36,410
There would have been a different building that housed the kitchen for fire reasons they

1092
01:25:36,410 --> 01:25:38,250
didn't usually have it inside the house.

1093
01:25:38,810 --> 01:25:41,050
But now that addition houses the kitchen.

1094
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:48,400
I want to reiterate that the history that the house represents is remarkable, having been

1095
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:54,000
the home of the first abyscable bishop in Kentucky who went on to serve as the presiding bishop

1096
01:25:54,380 --> 01:25:55,700
of the United States.

1097
01:25:56,300 --> 01:26:01,900
It also served as a private school for young women from throughout the South, not just the state

1098
01:26:01,900 --> 01:26:07,800
of Kentucky, and the bishop traveled extensively, not only domestically, but internationally,

1099
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,700
and he spread the word about Calorama.

1100
01:26:11,300 --> 01:26:18,620
That's what he called it, but the name stuck because in the 1911 photo, it is captioned

1101
01:26:18,620 --> 01:26:22,540
as Mr. Vice noted, it has handwriting, it's still called Calorama.

1102
01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:28,160
That's 50 years after the bishop lived there, so that is really a historical legacy.

1103
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:34,640
One of the things that I want to address is what I consider to be an elephant in the room.

1104
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:38,280
As my shirt indicates, I live in the upper highlands.

1105
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,320
I don't live near this house.

1106
01:26:40,580 --> 01:26:42,020
I live six blocks away.

1107
01:26:43,060 --> 01:26:48,420
Any development or construction on that site is not going to affect my home at all.

1108
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:56,120
But one of the things that I've heard is there's a perception neighbors don't want the property

1109
01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:03,360
developed because nobody wants development next to them. I have never heard that

1110
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:09,600
concern from the petitioners, and I have had numerous conversations with them.

1111
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:14,660
No one who lives next to this property, the petitioners have not mentioned,

1112
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:19,640
don't want construction, don't want development. The petitioners are

1113
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:25,320
are truly driven by a desire to preserve an important historical landmark.

1114
01:27:26,020 --> 01:27:31,220
Their only motivation is an abiding love of the property and the people and history

1115
01:27:31,220 --> 01:27:34,400
it represents and that is what they want to protect.

1116
01:27:38,150 --> 01:27:43,370
The House is worthy of being designated a local landmark because it bridges the past and

1117
01:27:43,370 --> 01:27:43,930
the present.

1118
01:27:44,470 --> 01:27:52,410
It's vital to demonstrating the development of the barge town road turnpike as Louisville

1119
01:27:52,410 --> 01:27:58,230
repeat, it meets the criteria of exemplifying the historic and cultural history of Louisville.

1120
01:27:58,830 --> 01:28:04,070
It's an established and familiar visual feature and it reinforces the continuity of the area.

1121
01:28:04,770 --> 01:28:09,190
It's identified with a person who significantly contributed to the culture and development

1122
01:28:09,190 --> 01:28:13,510
of not only Louisville, but also the Commonwealth and the nation.

1123
01:28:14,350 --> 01:28:19,330
It possesses character interest and value as part of the development and heritage of Metro

1124
01:28:19,330 --> 01:28:24,930
Louisville and Jefferson County, and finally, its location near Farmington shows the transition

1125
01:28:24,930 --> 01:28:30,750
of the area from plantations to urban development as growth occurred from Louisville's core

1126
01:28:30,750 --> 01:28:32,790
along the Bartstown Road Turnpike.

1127
01:28:34,270 --> 01:28:40,250
I know a previous speaker mentioned that it wasn't urban development or perhaps wasn't

1128
01:28:40,250 --> 01:28:40,930
suburbia.

1129
01:28:41,450 --> 01:28:47,230
It was an urban farm which was far different than the plantations that were dotting the

1130
01:28:47,230 --> 01:28:47,650
area.

1131
01:28:47,650 --> 01:28:50,430
And that is the type of development we are talking about.

1132
01:28:50,610 --> 01:28:53,290
It is a piece in the development of the area,

1133
01:28:53,510 --> 01:29:00,810
plantations, urban farms, and then as it got further subdivided into what we typically call suburbs.

1134
01:29:02,570 --> 01:29:08,270
I implore you to recognize the importance of this historical place and designated a local landmark.

1135
01:29:08,870 --> 01:29:13,370
At this point, I was going to say thank you, but I'm going to continue, as I said,

1136
01:29:13,370 --> 01:29:18,830
But there has been some information brought up that I didn't know was going to be offered here.

1137
01:29:19,130 --> 01:29:25,190
And I want to say a few things, I was going to say facts, but I'm going to instead going to say these are things I know.

1138
01:29:25,970 --> 01:29:31,250
I cannot ascribe intent to any other person, all I can say are things I know.

1139
01:29:33,950 --> 01:29:40,310
I have no doubt that as the owner said, they are under tremendous stress, they've paid a lot for the property.

1140
01:29:40,310 --> 01:29:45,410
They bought it for 605,000 and they closed on its September 30th of 2015.

1141
01:29:47,470 --> 01:29:54,210
One of the things that they didn't mention is, as you know, the designation is only being

1142
01:29:54,210 --> 01:29:56,810
sought for the parcel where the house is.

1143
01:29:56,810 --> 01:29:59,990
It's not being sought for what it's now a-

1144
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:28,320
So, that's a separate parcel. When the owners bought it, it was all one parcel. And they closed on it September 30th. And then November 23rd, they submitted to Metro Government application to subdivide the property. And that is when they then asked for what served as the front yard of the property. It's half acre, 0.55 acres with, there's no structures on it. They asked to go ahead and make that a separate parcel.

1145
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:30,840
So they bought it September 30th, and November 23rd,

1146
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:33,860
they went ahead and applied for that vacant part

1147
01:30:33,860 --> 01:30:35,720
of the front yard to be a separate parcel.

1148
01:30:36,820 --> 01:30:39,620
And then they left the house on 0.8 acres.

1149
01:30:39,780 --> 01:30:43,000
That's what's remaining 0.825 acres is what the house is on.

1150
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:47,280
So after they subdivided the property,

1151
01:30:47,820 --> 01:30:49,580
they went ahead and relisted it.

1152
01:30:49,820 --> 01:30:52,060
And I'm getting this information off Zillow,

1153
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:53,400
which is a common website.

1154
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,320
I can't verify that it's 100% accurate.

1155
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,420
it's used across the country, and this is what it represents.

1156
01:31:00,660 --> 01:31:05,940
It says August 27th of 2015, House went on the market for 650,000.

1157
01:31:06,380 --> 01:31:08,880
Virtually immediately, the House is pending.

1158
01:31:09,420 --> 01:31:11,420
That it's got a contract on it.

1159
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:16,180
The closing is on September 30th.

1160
01:31:16,620 --> 01:31:22,320
Then, the House is re-listed for sale on November 5th of 2015

1161
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,480
at a price of 550,000.

1162
01:31:24,480 --> 01:31:26,720
So they paid $605 for the whole thing.

1163
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:30,660
They have since subdivided it, taken off a half acre,

1164
01:31:30,900 --> 01:31:34,360
and then they re-listed it November 5th for $550,000.

1165
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:36,420
And they kept it on the market.

1166
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:39,360
The listing was finally removed April 23rd of 2016.

1167
01:31:39,780 --> 01:31:42,520
In that time, it started at $550,000,

1168
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:45,080
and it got down to $500,000 according to Zillow

1169
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:48,540
by the time it was taken off of being listed.

1170
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:52,780
And again, I know they're under tremendous stress.

1171
01:31:52,780 --> 01:32:03,380
I have they they did know how all of this would go when when they started this process, you know, I don't want to interrupt you

1172
01:32:03,380 --> 01:32:08,080
But we are running short on time and I don't I mean does any of this speak to the designation criteria?

1173
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:10,960
only to

1174
01:32:12,140 --> 01:32:16,800
The emotional estate and and what what was going on at the time

1175
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:23,120
I should have yeah, I should have preceded your comments and fairness to you by saying we don't want repetitive testimony

1176
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:36,040
And we want testimony that addresses the designation criteria just because there's a bunch of speakers and I'm not trying to be I will change to is that the house that Bishop Smith had and is that where the school for the girls was.

1177
01:32:36,620 --> 01:32:43,660
You saw the study in the slides that since been moved but the person who moved it lived in the house.

1178
01:32:44,220 --> 01:32:48,820
Sunshine Harris her parents bought the house in 1867.

1179
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:52,220
Bishop Smith sold the house in 1860.

1180
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:53,800
There's seven years difference.

1181
01:32:54,740 --> 01:32:58,220
She talks of that house being the Bishop's house,

1182
01:32:58,460 --> 01:32:59,820
and that study, his study,

1183
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,380
and it was on the land of that house.

1184
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:04,380
She used the study as a play house.

1185
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:05,880
She loved it, she saved it.

1186
01:33:06,100 --> 01:33:07,560
She moved it to the Speed Museum,

1187
01:33:07,860 --> 01:33:09,920
and she's now, it's on a church grounds.

1188
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:13,420
That's one of the connections that we have to say, yeah.

1189
01:33:13,820 --> 01:33:15,420
That is the house where the Bishop was,

1190
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:16,400
and that was his school,

1191
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:17,880
and that's where his study was.

1192
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:22,560
Let me make sure that there's nothing outside of it.

1193
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:26,380
And that cited in the record, by the way, just to help us put together a timeline that

1194
01:33:26,380 --> 01:33:31,400
the quote you were just referring to, was that in one of the records, either in your

1195
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:35,140
petition or in their designation report, her statement about the study.

1196
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:38,940
I have to go back and look, is it in your report?

1197
01:33:39,100 --> 01:33:40,680
I know you have a picture of the study.

1198
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:42,420
Is it in the petition?

1199
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:45,040
If it's not, if you would get us that information.

1200
01:33:45,220 --> 01:33:45,440
Okay.

1201
01:33:45,440 --> 01:33:47,120
Well, we'll double check the petition,

1202
01:33:49,490 --> 01:33:50,650
and

1203
01:33:54,910 --> 01:33:56,150
this

1204
01:33:58,770 --> 01:34:00,090
is a difficult one.

1205
01:34:00,230 --> 01:34:03,710
I understand what you said that you only want to know about things that have to do with

1206
01:34:03,710 --> 01:34:05,190
declaring a historical landmark.

1207
01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:10,950
I bring this up because my husband and I made an offer on the house to the owners.

1208
01:34:11,670 --> 01:34:20,270
So we were willing to buy it in its current condition, and we have history with historical

1209
01:34:20,270 --> 01:34:29,030
homes, and the last one we did was 1865, the earliest was 1810, so we believe we can use

1210
01:34:29,030 --> 01:34:35,690
the home as it is. We did not offer their asking price, which is currently back to $550,000,

1211
01:34:35,910 --> 01:34:44,650
but it's not for lack of interest in the home. We believe that it is structurally sound.

1212
01:34:47,100 --> 01:34:52,640
Okay, thank you very much, and let's see, I tell you what, it's quarter to 11, and Tina,

1213
01:34:52,940 --> 01:34:57,380
I just want to, I don't want you all to be concerned about your person has to leave.

1214
01:34:58,300 --> 01:35:04,840
And I think you told me the woman's name that, okay, well thanks, appreciate it.

1215
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:09,100
If you would identify yourself, then I'll pull you out of this list of speakers that signed

1216
01:35:09,100 --> 01:35:09,740
up to.

1217
01:35:09,740 --> 01:35:10,260
Thank you.

1218
01:35:13,270 --> 01:35:14,370
Good morning, Mr. Commissioner.

1219
01:35:14,590 --> 01:35:15,630
My name is Joe Clawzand.

1220
01:35:16,670 --> 01:35:18,110
K-L-A-U-S-I-N-G.

1221
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:23,220
Thank you and fellow commissioners for your time today.

1222
01:35:24,180 --> 01:35:27,860
Appreciate you all listening to this interesting argument.

1223
01:35:29,440 --> 01:35:35,720
I've been on how much resident grew up there for 23 years, moved when I got married, out

1224
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:36,740
of the J-town and moved back.

1225
01:35:36,900 --> 01:35:37,480
Still a resident.

1226
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:40,680
I too live close to the property and I'm fine with the demolition.

1227
01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:49,880
doesn't affect me one bit, I'm thankful for this case because I do a lot of

1228
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:54,140
civil law and I very rarely look at the fifth amendment. You know I always think

1229
01:35:54,140 --> 01:35:57,480
you have the right to remain silent. Well the fifth amendment also says as

1230
01:35:57,480 --> 01:36:02,640
that no private property shall be taken to taking clause and that's what the

1231
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:09,280
petitioners are asking today but they're not asking it based on anything sound or

1232
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:15,220
have a foundation. What we've heard today is we do not know. These are quotes. Don't know

1233
01:36:15,220 --> 01:36:20,940
as much as we like. He might have seen Lincoln speak. Could possibly. I think, anecdotal

1234
01:36:20,940 --> 01:36:25,580
evidence, which we know is not evidence. There may have been many additions. I'm confused

1235
01:36:25,580 --> 01:36:30,020
by the House. I'm confused with the front door is. I'm confused by the additions likely

1236
01:36:30,020 --> 01:36:35,920
with said seven times. In fact, the House may have been 180 degrees rotated. If it were, in

1237
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:39,800
the house, which we don't know. The property that they're saying, the whole

1238
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:46,020
property could fit 300 houses on it. Think of that, 300. There's what? Three, six,

1239
01:36:46,220 --> 01:36:50,980
there's 10 of you all up there. 30 times as many as your old homes could have

1240
01:36:50,980 --> 01:36:57,380
been with this gentleman lived. We've got litany of mistakes in the report. The

1241
01:36:57,380 --> 01:37:03,180
designation where it was eligible in 2010 has been proven to be inaccurate and what

1242
01:37:03,180 --> 01:37:04,660
What we have here is a slippery slope.

1243
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:10,720
We're asking, or we're not, the petitioners are asking for this commission to retroactively

1244
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:17,060
designate a citizen's private property as a store, as a landmark.

1245
01:37:17,780 --> 01:37:22,040
There's architects on this committee, there's real leaders on this committee.

1246
01:37:22,820 --> 01:37:25,920
You all understand the costs needed to make changes.

1247
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:28,940
You understand the costs needed to get permits.

1248
01:37:28,940 --> 01:37:32,880
It also would open up a floodgate of litigation.

1249
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:36,060
Think of the 300 homes that this property could have sat on.

1250
01:37:36,440 --> 01:37:36,940
Think on it.

1251
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:39,900
Every realtor, when they sell a home, they have a disclosure.

1252
01:37:40,700 --> 01:37:44,060
And within that disclosure it says, has that anything been

1253
01:37:44,060 --> 01:37:47,400
due with, you know, landmark status.

1254
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:50,260
Here's another disclosure from the GLAR contract.

1255
01:37:50,820 --> 01:37:52,860
Do you know anything that would affect the value of this property?

1256
01:37:54,240 --> 01:37:57,140
Well, I guess it could be a historic landmark to use their criteria.

1257
01:37:57,140 --> 01:38:00,680
Ontario, it's close to Farmington, well so are a thousand other homes.

1258
01:38:02,180 --> 01:38:07,640
Well, it's where Bishop Smith may have lived. Well, so are 300 homes. Well, you should have known that.

1259
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:14,640
What we're doing here is what they're requesting you do is very dangerous. The evidence does not support that.

1260
01:38:15,340 --> 01:38:25,640
When we're talking about a taking, talking about a taking, landmark status should not be arbitrarily given out,

1261
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:28,100
especially to private property landowners.

1262
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:31,720
It should be based upon strict scrutiny.

1263
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:34,480
Strict scrutiny is the highest standard

1264
01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:36,160
constitutionally that one can have.

1265
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:39,040
It's not to be based upon allegedly

1266
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:42,980
unconfirmed data.

1267
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:45,380
Speculation, what could be one in 300?

1268
01:38:46,620 --> 01:38:48,640
What is that, a .03 chance that it could be?

1269
01:38:49,300 --> 01:38:50,580
Could it be, we don't know.

1270
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:53,800
It's not to be based on historically eligible properties

1271
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:57,660
that are now being to be incorrect based upon inappropriate information.

1272
01:38:58,460 --> 01:39:04,880
It's based on facts and to discussions of, well, could have been a storm sewer or could

1273
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:07,080
have been the underground railroad, is not a fact.

1274
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:09,540
That's not a strict scrutiny.

1275
01:39:10,140 --> 01:39:14,480
You all are tasked with upholding a strict scrutiny of a private property owner.

1276
01:39:15,460 --> 01:39:18,580
And the evidence before you today does not arise to evidence.

1277
01:39:19,220 --> 01:39:21,360
To use an own attorney's word, it's anecdotal.

1278
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:23,880
Well, we wish we would have known more.

1279
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:28,700
There may be stuff underneath it, we don't know, we can't explain what this happened.

1280
01:39:29,500 --> 01:39:36,480
This is not the case for this commission to retroactively apply a landmark status to

1281
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:41,020
a privately held owned property, where it's never been deemed landmark before.

1282
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:44,360
No petitions ever been any for this property before.

1283
01:39:46,770 --> 01:39:49,510
There's any questions I'm happy to take those, but thank you for your time today.

1284
01:39:49,790 --> 01:39:50,130
Thank you.

1285
01:39:52,210 --> 01:39:57,670
Let's get back to those who speak and support the next person is Reverend James

1286
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:03,880
Wilkinson.

1287
01:40:12,630 --> 01:40:15,270
And if you would, just identify yourself for the record, please.

1288
01:40:15,410 --> 01:40:15,710
Thank you.

1289
01:40:16,650 --> 01:40:16,770
Okay.

1290
01:40:18,090 --> 01:40:19,110
Thank you very much.

1291
01:40:20,050 --> 01:40:21,010
Good morning, everyone.

1292
01:40:21,350 --> 01:40:27,370
I am James R. Wilkinson, historiographer of the diocese Kentucky of the Episcopal Church.

1293
01:40:27,370 --> 01:40:34,730
I work out of the Bishop's Office for the Bishop of Kentucky here in Louisville.

1294
01:40:37,130 --> 01:40:44,630
First of all, I want to thank everyone for the opportunity to speak about the significance

1295
01:40:45,310 --> 01:40:47,410
of the place called Colorado,

1296
01:40:49,590 --> 01:40:53,890
the house of an extraordinary churchman and citizen of

1297
01:40:53,890 --> 01:40:57,970
the Commonwealth of Kentucky, Bishop Benjamin Bosworth Smith.

1298
01:40:57,970 --> 01:40:58,270
us.

1299
01:41:00,510 --> 01:41:07,210
I also want to thank all of those who have worked so hard in researching facts and

1300
01:41:07,210 --> 01:41:13,870
gathering signatures for the petition to recognize his house as an historic landmark.

1301
01:41:16,380 --> 01:41:26,480
Colorado is a Greek word that may be translated a view of goodness. It was indeed a view of

1302
01:41:26,480 --> 01:41:33,960
goodness at Benjamin Bosworth Smith brought to Kentucky. Born in 1794 in

1303
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:39,360
Rhode Island, he had already demonstrated his potential as a young man as a

1304
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:43,440
journalist and communicator by being the editor of the largest church

1305
01:41:43,440 --> 01:41:48,420
publication in the nation at that time, the Episcopal Recorder in Philadelphia.

1306
01:41:50,810 --> 01:41:55,010
Only in his 30s when he came to Kentucky as a young married man with several

1307
01:41:55,010 --> 01:42:02,050
children to be the director of Christ Church Lexington. He also immediately was

1308
01:42:02,050 --> 01:42:09,290
challenged by the cholera epidemic. In that tragic event, he was tireless in his

1309
01:42:09,290 --> 01:42:16,750
ministry to the sick. His wife died in the epidemic, leaving him to be a single

1310
01:42:16,750 --> 01:42:22,870
father. The city government in Lexington recognized him at the time with an

1311
01:42:22,870 --> 01:42:29,230
inscription and silver. When we were sick, you visited us.

1312
01:42:32,190 --> 01:42:34,770
His ordained ministry of 67 years

1313
01:42:35,650 --> 01:42:44,290
included 52 years as the first bishop of Kentucky from 1832 onward, culminating in his service as

1314
01:42:44,290 --> 01:42:51,590
the ninth presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church from 1868 until his death at the age of 90 in 1884.

1315
01:42:51,590 --> 01:42:58,530
for. His many accomplishments during his long and distinguished ministry over a lifetime

1316
01:42:58,530 --> 01:43:07,650
have been well documented and recorded and are referenced in the petition. I will not

1317
01:43:07,650 --> 01:43:14,430
be able to mention all of his accomplishments now. I will use this time given to me this

1318
01:43:14,430 --> 01:43:21,870
morning to focus our attention on things that happened while he was a resident in his

1319
01:43:21,870 --> 01:43:31,330
home here in Louisville, around about that time from 1841 to 1869 when he became the presiding

1320
01:43:31,330 --> 01:43:38,070
bishop of the Episcopal Church. By events in his lifetime, during this time, I will show

1321
01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:47,890
how he distinguished himself while at Colorado in three ways as an educator, as a

1322
01:43:47,890 --> 01:43:57,430
reconciler, and as an architect. In 1841 he establishes a home here at what he

1323
01:43:57,430 --> 01:44:04,990
called Colorado in Louisville, Kentucky. Bishop Smith was an educator prior to

1324
01:44:04,990 --> 01:44:08,790
residing in Louisville, Bishop Smith established one of the first Episcopal

1325
01:44:08,790 --> 01:44:14,770
seminaries west of the mountains. First at Lexington and later at Shelbyville.

1326
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:21,040
He established in his home aboarding school for girls.

1327
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:25,020
He had been appointed

1328
01:44:25,020 --> 01:44:40,030
Superintendent of Public Instruction in February 1840 and served until the

1329
01:44:40,030 --> 01:44:45,350
for years after that to operate the school for young ladies at their residence

1330
01:44:46,650 --> 01:44:53,540
Colorado near the barge town road in the east end of Louisville. Bishop Smith

1331
01:44:53,540 --> 01:44:59,440
was a reconciler his vigorous ministry to and among blacks

1332
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,040
And Kentucky was well known.

1333
01:45:04,610 --> 01:45:27,830
When the dioceses in the southern states broke with the Episcopal Church during the Civil War, he did not allow the diocese of Kentucky to be one of them. And both during and after the Civil War, he sought reconciliation and reunion in his church. In 1865, he accepted a priest from the Confederate diocese of Georgia.

1334
01:45:29,190 --> 01:45:37,190
In that same year, he had managed the Dyson Convention of Kentucky, convened at St. Paul's

1335
01:45:37,190 --> 01:45:37,870
in Louisville,

1336
01:45:40,030 --> 01:45:45,310
to resolve to receive with open arms the southern bishops are deputies

1337
01:45:45,310 --> 01:45:49,950
that might return to take their seats in the upcoming general convention.

1338
01:45:52,030 --> 01:46:00,270
The Dyson Convention passed the following resolution, resolved first that the sentiments

1339
01:46:00,270 --> 01:46:04,250
experts expressed in the foregoing extract from the bishop's address are especially in the

1340
01:46:04,250 --> 01:46:09,710
present crisis of the church in our country a very noble illustration of the true spirit

1341
01:46:09,710 --> 01:46:16,170
of Christ, intimately worthy of a bishop in the Church of God, and have the cardinal approval

1342
01:46:16,170 --> 01:46:23,410
of this convention resolve second that this convention disapproves of uncharitable sermons, addresses

1343
01:46:24,090 --> 01:46:28,310
and church newspaper articles against the bishop's clergy and laity of the south.

1344
01:46:29,310 --> 01:46:37,450
As tending inevitably to greatly impair, if not to destroy, the true Christian policy

1345
01:46:37,450 --> 01:46:41,430
enunciated in the extract from the Bishop's address.

1346
01:46:42,350 --> 01:46:49,650
So the 37th Annual Council of the Dice of Kentucky was held at St. Paul's in Louisville.

1347
01:46:50,730 --> 01:46:54,450
Bishop Smith addressed to the Convention was unusually optimistic.

1348
01:46:55,490 --> 01:47:01,450
He could report with satisfaction that St. Mark's mission for colored people in Louisville

1349
01:47:01,450 --> 01:47:04,110
was conducting a day-in-night school.

1350
01:47:04,890 --> 01:47:09,670
The high point of his dress was an appeal to those whom the convention would elect as

1351
01:47:09,670 --> 01:47:14,550
deputies to the forthcoming general convention for them to receive with open arms.

1352
01:47:16,180 --> 01:47:21,930
Any Southern bishops or laity who might return to take their seats in that body.

1353
01:47:21,930 --> 01:47:29,480
In 1868, the Reverend Francis McNeese Whittle,

1354
01:47:29,940 --> 01:47:33,700
director of St. Paul's Louisville, was elected as one

1355
01:47:33,700 --> 01:47:35,240
of the deputies to General Convention.

1356
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:40,200
At the General Convention, he moved the resolution originally

1357
01:47:40,200 --> 01:47:44,000
passed at the Dawson Convention to seat Southern deputations.

1358
01:47:44,740 --> 01:47:47,700
This action led to the reconciliation reunion

1359
01:47:47,700 --> 01:47:49,900
of the Episcopal Church as the Civil War.

1360
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:57,500
A similar resolution and speech was made by the Reverend George David Cummins of Illinois,

1361
01:47:58,390 --> 01:48:02,900
who was later nominated and elected the Assistant Bishop of Kentucky.

1362
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:10,580
In the House of Bishops, the resolution introduced by Bishop Benjamin Bosworth Smith's self-bishop

1363
01:48:10,580 --> 01:48:16,720
of Kentucky was adopted, and the Southern bishops and attendants were officially seated in

1364
01:48:16,720 --> 01:48:17,460
the House of Bishops.

1365
01:48:18,540 --> 01:48:27,260
It was, you see, primarily the leadership of Bishop Smith from Kentucky that secured

1366
01:48:27,260 --> 01:48:30,580
the unity of the Episcopal Church after the Civil War.

1367
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:40,360
Also in 1868, hearing Kentucky, he ordained the first black priest ordained in the Diocese

1368
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:40,980
of Kentucky.

1369
01:48:42,480 --> 01:48:47,320
The Reverend Francis Riddle resigned as Rector of St. Paul's to become the assistant bishop

1370
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:53,820
of what had been outside the Episcopal Church of the Diocese of Virginia during the Civil

1371
01:48:53,820 --> 01:48:54,140
War.

1372
01:48:56,320 --> 01:49:00,740
After holding several cures in Virginia and serving as chaplain of the Confederate Army,

1373
01:49:00,920 --> 01:49:06,780
the Reverend Edmund Taylor Perkins was elected and accepted in the Diocese of Kentucky

1374
01:49:06,780 --> 01:49:10,580
as the Sixth Rector of St. Paul's in Louisville.

1375
01:49:11,980 --> 01:49:15,400
Finally, Bishop Smith was an architect himself.

1376
01:49:16,860 --> 01:49:21,380
Having traveled to England, he learned and copied designs for church building.

1377
01:49:22,500 --> 01:49:27,960
Several churches in Kentucky were built on his designs, including St. Philip's, Harrisburg,

1378
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:35,560
Grace Church, Hopkinsville, and the Church of the Advent, Senthiana, which are all good

1379
01:49:35,560 --> 01:49:45,140
examples of his Gothic revival style. Certainly it would be appealing to me for a

1380
01:49:45,140 --> 01:49:52,260
house called Colorado to be recognized as an historic landmark as a building

1381
01:49:52,260 --> 01:49:58,060
fabricated at least in part by hand to suit his purposes as a retirement home for

1382
01:49:58,060 --> 01:50:01,300
himself and as a boarding school for girls.

1383
01:50:03,390 --> 01:50:06,530
Perhaps some future use of such a

1384
01:50:06,530 --> 01:50:15,250
The building may take advantage of its 16-inch interior brick walls to provide a fire retardant

1385
01:50:15,250 --> 01:50:18,930
environment for archives of a significant part of Kentucky history.

1386
01:50:21,300 --> 01:50:27,080
That in preserving this place, we have done something to preserve for those who come

1387
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:30,640
after us a view of goodness.

1388
01:50:32,580 --> 01:50:34,180
What would be more fitting?

1389
01:50:34,180 --> 01:50:44,060
Thank you for allowing me to participate in this appeal to recognize Colorama as a historic landmark.

1390
01:50:45,060 --> 01:50:48,680
I strongly support this petition.

1391
01:50:49,940 --> 01:50:55,080
And I hope the desire, hope and desire, will be favorable.

1392
01:50:56,020 --> 01:50:57,000
Thank you.

1393
01:50:57,360 --> 01:50:58,120
Thank you very much.

1394
01:51:00,700 --> 01:51:04,300
Again, I've been an update here on our time situation.

1395
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:10,580
We have to give up the room at 12.30 because the next planning commission needs it at 12.30

1396
01:51:10,580 --> 01:51:12,240
to prepare for their 1 o'clock meeting.

1397
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:16,840
So we've got about 90 minutes down and a little take that long, but we do need to move this

1398
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:20,020
along a little bit because we have quite a few speakers who have signed up.

1399
01:51:20,420 --> 01:51:27,280
Again, as a courtesy to others, if please try to limit your remarks to whether you're in

1400
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:31,660
support or opposed and try not to repeat information that's already in the record.

1401
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:34,120
But we do appreciate your participation.

1402
01:51:34,620 --> 01:51:41,080
The next person to speak is Ryan Fenwick and these are still speaking in support of the

1403
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:41,460
petition.

1404
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:44,580
Oh, sorry, I missed that.

1405
01:51:44,740 --> 01:51:45,120
Yeah, sorry.

1406
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:45,540
Okay.

1407
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:47,840
Cynthia Cook.

1408
01:51:57,540 --> 01:51:58,120
Good morning.

1409
01:51:58,380 --> 01:51:59,720
Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

1410
01:51:59,880 --> 01:52:00,780
My name is Cynthia Cook.

1411
01:52:01,240 --> 01:52:04,020
I'm the owner of a historic landmark as well.

1412
01:52:04,020 --> 01:52:11,620
the historic break place is built in 1796 and I just want to say I totally

1413
01:52:11,620 --> 01:52:16,920
empathize with the family that own this house because as an owner of a

1414
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:22,760
historic property it is an ordeal to make it what you want it to be and I want

1415
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:27,800
to say that it's an opportunity to make it great it's an opportunity to work with

1416
01:52:27,800 --> 01:52:33,260
the structure to make it what it can be for the service of the family that's

1417
01:52:33,260 --> 01:52:37,800
occupying it. So that's basically what I wanted to say. It would be great if the

1418
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:42,500
preservation community would provide more support for people who do own

1419
01:52:42,500 --> 01:52:46,920
historic properties. I understand the tax credits and I think they're very

1420
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:51,740
valuable and I haven't personally taken advantage of them. I did everything on my

1421
01:52:51,740 --> 01:52:59,020
own in preservation and I feel good about that. But it is really wonderful if like

1422
01:52:59,020 --> 01:53:03,520
commission's and preservation communities can really support families who do

1423
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:07,600
take on projects of this scale so that they feel really good about the

1424
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:12,120
projects and good about the property and think about it really seriously is

1425
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:16,380
there forever home. Thanks so much. Have a great day. Thank you.

1426
01:53:18,410 --> 01:53:19,810
The next person is

1427
01:53:19,810 --> 01:53:20,970
Peter Moran.

1428
01:53:39,300 --> 01:53:43,640
Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm the director of

1429
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:48,820
of the Speed Art Museum, and I have a lifetime of study

1430
01:53:48,820 --> 01:53:51,080
in art and architecture history.

1431
01:53:51,820 --> 01:53:54,140
And I am totally convinced of the legitimacy

1432
01:53:54,140 --> 01:53:56,380
of the draft designation report

1433
01:53:56,380 --> 01:53:58,420
and the legitimacy of the recommendation

1434
01:53:59,060 --> 01:54:02,180
for local landmark designation of this property.

1435
01:54:02,820 --> 01:54:05,860
I would disagree only slightly with the report

1436
01:54:05,860 --> 01:54:09,140
in saying that I think there is an argument

1437
01:54:09,140 --> 01:54:10,540
for architectural significance,

1438
01:54:10,740 --> 01:54:13,080
both in the scale, the citing and the character

1439
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:20,800
of the building. It really is a remarkable example of early suburban development.

1440
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:24,860
I hope

1441
01:54:24,860 --> 01:54:29,300
that the building will be preserved and that the cultural legacy of future generations

1442
01:54:29,300 --> 01:54:37,540
is not diminished by the demolition of the building. Demolition is forever preservation

1443
01:54:37,540 --> 01:54:43,880
is a bold and important step. I do hope too that stronger provision for designation of

1444
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:51,120
historic properties in advance of the building's possible demise might someday be a reality

1445
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:57,840
here in Jefferson County. It certainly would save a lot of heartbreak. Thank you very

1446
01:54:57,840 --> 01:55:01,540
much for the opportunity to speak to you. Thank you very much.

1447
01:55:04,040 --> 01:55:05,940
Martina Khaniki.

1448
01:55:17,130 --> 01:55:18,430
Martina Khaniki,

1449
01:55:18,830 --> 01:55:24,650
president of neighborhood planning and preservation, 2729 Northwestern Parkway.

1450
01:55:27,210 --> 01:55:33,530
I come speaking in two capacities as the president of a preservation organization here

1451
01:55:33,530 --> 01:55:38,510
in town, and also as the former director of exhibits for the Kentucky Center for African

1452
01:55:38,510 --> 01:55:43,690
American Heritage, where I was responsible for all the content that was supposed to accompany

1453
01:55:43,690 --> 01:55:44,890
those exhibits.

1454
01:55:46,750 --> 01:55:51,710
You're going to have a lot of folks make the case in a lot of ways that are not germane to

1455
01:55:51,710 --> 01:55:53,570
what your job is here today.

1456
01:55:53,570 --> 01:56:01,050
you just look at the rules, you just understand how many criteria this house has

1457
01:56:01,050 --> 01:56:07,230
passed and only one is required and therefore and as a historian I would

1458
01:56:07,230 --> 01:56:12,570
argue that perhaps there should be five because we can't say for a certainty

1459
01:56:12,570 --> 01:56:18,590
what did or did not happen in historic significance in this very historic

1460
01:56:18,590 --> 01:56:27,350
historic community. That's the way historians talk. I know that some folks want more clarity,

1461
01:56:27,990 --> 01:56:33,750
but historians deal with the greater deal of leeway in terms of interpretation.

1462
01:56:35,790 --> 01:56:38,010
Here's something I want you to consider.

1463
01:56:42,220 --> 01:56:47,860
Property owners who buy property that they later find or

1464
01:56:47,860 --> 01:56:55,660
challenged by historic constraints, often argue that it's their right to do with the

1465
01:56:55,660 --> 01:57:03,500
property as they see fit, it's property rights. So I would like us as a community to understand

1466
01:57:03,500 --> 01:57:08,300
that argument, but also to understand that the property rights of people who have lived

1467
01:57:08,300 --> 01:57:13,460
in the community for decades, who have loved their homes, have loved their community, who

1468
01:57:13,460 --> 01:57:18,960
brought their homes and took care of their community in a way that was consistent with the

1469
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:22,280
ambiance of the community and with the reason they bought that home.

1470
01:57:23,300 --> 01:57:29,100
The efforts of this neighborhood has been significant in terms of trying to protect

1471
01:57:29,100 --> 01:57:35,120
a piece of history that they admire and that lends to the value of their homes.

1472
01:57:35,900 --> 01:57:38,960
So let's think about all the property rights of everyone.

1473
01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:48,160
And in the final analysis we have to ask ourselves, is are the wishes of people who wish to force

1474
01:57:48,160 --> 01:57:54,540
themselves into a neighborhood that they are trying to change significantly against the will

1475
01:57:54,540 --> 01:58:03,220
of their future neighbors, is what important to them, born important to the 800 or more people

1476
01:58:03,220 --> 01:58:09,540
that signed that petition and said please do not destroy our history. I know for a fact

1477
01:58:09,540 --> 01:58:16,680
that the Kentucky Trust and others have reached out to these property owners. We don't want

1478
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:21,080
them left holding the bag. I know the Kentucky Trust and others have reached out to them

1479
01:58:21,080 --> 01:58:26,560
to try to figure out a way to either help them with the property or purchase the property.

1480
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:32,260
they have options and I'm not so sure that their options are anymore.

1481
01:58:34,970 --> 01:58:35,730
I don't

1482
01:58:35,730 --> 01:58:40,510
think that the current neighborhood should be put at risk because of the

1483
01:58:40,510 --> 01:58:44,670
wishes of folks who obviously do not respect the neighborhood. It's history and

1484
01:58:45,130 --> 01:58:47,610
want to change its character. Thank you.

1485
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:53,860
Okay, that is the last speaker that I

1486
01:58:53,860 --> 01:59:01,420
show that signed up in support and we'll now switch and hear from people who have signed

1487
01:59:01,420 --> 01:59:07,860
up in opposition to the designation. The first one I have is Laura Clifford and

1488
01:59:19,180 --> 01:59:19,660
if you

1489
01:59:19,660 --> 01:59:24,240
identify yourself. Thank you for letting me speak to this committee and before I, my

1490
01:59:24,240 --> 01:59:29,540
name is Laura Clifford and before I begin my speech I'd like to comment about what the last

1491
01:59:29,540 --> 01:59:36,600
speaker just said by saying, and I know she wasn't here for earlier speakers, but we're

1492
01:59:36,600 --> 01:59:41,160
all from the Highlands. We're not forcing ourselves into this community, the property

1493
01:59:41,160 --> 01:59:47,380
owners grew up in the Highlands. We're all from the Highlands. So we all are vested

1494
01:59:47,380 --> 01:59:52,000
in this area, not just the petitioners. If we had a petition for the other side, I have

1495
01:59:52,000 --> 01:59:58,000
no doubt for what we could get 800 signatures. So once again, my name is Laura Clifford. I was

1496
01:59:58,000 --> 01:59:59,280
as an American history teacher.

1497
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:29,280
I love everything historical, including historical properties. When Jenny and Sean first came to us to look at this property in this house, I was very excited. From the outside it looked nice. But my excitement soon faded when we entered the house. I was shocked by the alterations that had been made and by how historically compromised it was. It was chopped up, it was changed, and it was unidentifiable as to historical era.

1498
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:38,360
I had some really serious doubts that it could ever be restored, but Sean and Jenny were

1499
02:00:38,360 --> 02:00:43,960
excited. They thought that they could make something of the south that they could work it out.

1500
02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:49,440
Unfortunately, as you heard after many months of trying, they found out that they could not

1501
02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:56,320
work things out and that no one else was interested in restoring this property. So they had to do

1502
02:00:56,320 --> 02:01:03,510
do something so they decided that it was best that they tried to demolish the house.

1503
02:01:04,070 --> 02:01:09,190
And of course that's when the people with the petition started and Bishop Smith was

1504
02:01:09,190 --> 02:01:09,950
resurrected.

1505
02:01:10,870 --> 02:01:15,210
As I said before, I was a teacher of American history as a matter of fact, I taught American

1506
02:01:15,210 --> 02:01:17,070
history for more than 36 years.

1507
02:01:17,830 --> 02:01:22,170
I was the social studies specialist for the Jefferson County public schools.

1508
02:01:22,170 --> 02:01:30,970
I was the project director on three large federal grants teaching American history grants and trained many other teachers of history.

1509
02:01:31,410 --> 02:01:47,510
I served on several local and state committees, including the Lewis and Clark committees, the Jefferson County Committee on the Kentucky Bacentennial, the Kentucky Bacentennial Committee, the African American History Advisory Committee.

1510
02:01:47,510 --> 02:01:54,470
I've worked with noted state and local historians like Dr. John Cleaver, Dr. J. Blaine Hudson,

1511
02:01:55,130 --> 02:02:03,910
Jim Cleaver of the Philson Club, and I have never heard of Benjamin Bosworth Smith.

1512
02:02:04,410 --> 02:02:10,510
I would venture to say that before this petition, not two people in this room had heard of him.

1513
02:02:10,510 --> 02:02:17,670
He is not a significant historical person and the Highlands are in the local community.

1514
02:02:18,470 --> 02:02:26,710
Bishop Smith's association with this property is brief and not related if he was a property

1515
02:02:26,710 --> 02:02:31,090
owner here and it's not related to his religious work.

1516
02:02:32,210 --> 02:02:39,510
It is mentioned in some of the historical research that I've done that he was pro-union, but

1517
02:02:39,510 --> 02:02:43,930
But most of us who know about the Civil War know that pro-union was not necessarily the

1518
02:02:43,930 --> 02:02:46,150
same thing as anti-slavery.

1519
02:02:46,690 --> 02:02:49,010
He was not necessarily anti-slavery.

1520
02:02:49,850 --> 02:02:53,670
It made sense to be pro-union if you lived in this area at that time.

1521
02:02:54,150 --> 02:02:56,470
We were still part of the union.

1522
02:02:57,270 --> 02:03:05,290
The census records show us that Bishop Smith was a slave owner in Lexington and in Louisville.

1523
02:03:06,210 --> 02:03:09,890
He may have been part of the back-to-Africa movement.

1524
02:03:10,690 --> 02:03:15,650
That's not necessarily a big hallelujah in historical works today.

1525
02:03:16,290 --> 02:03:19,570
Even with Henry Clay, we kind of shove that one under the carpet these days.

1526
02:03:20,190 --> 02:03:24,190
Even if he did live on this property, there's little about him.

1527
02:03:24,570 --> 02:03:31,690
There's enough important historical note to deny the rights of these property owners.

1528
02:03:31,690 --> 02:03:38,370
In this nation, property owners have reasonable rights as to the use of their property.

1529
02:03:39,150 --> 02:03:45,390
When purchased, the property owners, this property had no easements and no historical information.

1530
02:03:45,990 --> 02:03:49,730
And when asked the previous owners, told the buyers there was none.

1531
02:03:50,530 --> 02:03:55,810
The current owners tried for many months to sell the house and the larger portion of this property.

1532
02:03:56,330 --> 02:03:58,270
But no reasonable offers were made.

1533
02:03:58,270 --> 02:04:03,350
I get it, I understand that some of the neighbors loved the previous owners.

1534
02:04:03,810 --> 02:04:06,470
It was party central there for maybe 30 years.

1535
02:04:06,850 --> 02:04:08,310
I know Mr. Stone mentioned that.

1536
02:04:08,790 --> 02:04:11,730
They swam in the pool, they had big parties, they had fireworks.

1537
02:04:12,250 --> 02:04:16,210
That's not a reason to deny the rights of these property owners.

1538
02:04:17,290 --> 02:04:18,730
I love old homes too.

1539
02:04:19,310 --> 02:04:20,190
I love history.

1540
02:04:21,030 --> 02:04:25,850
Good memories does not make it mandatory that you preserve a home.

1541
02:04:25,850 --> 02:04:29,610
I ask that you rule in favor of the property owners.

1542
02:04:34,540 --> 02:04:35,140
Thank you.

1543
02:04:35,420 --> 02:04:37,140
The next person is Juliet Dillon.

1544
02:04:45,100 --> 02:04:46,240
Hi, I'm Juliet Dillon.

1545
02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:48,860
Everybody's pretty much covered in anything

1546
02:04:48,860 --> 02:04:51,500
that I wanted to say, so we can just move to the next person.

1547
02:04:52,100 --> 02:04:52,440
Thank you.

1548
02:04:56,150 --> 02:04:58,350
I'm opposed to designating in a landmark.

1549
02:04:59,910 --> 02:05:01,070
Well, thank you very much.

1550
02:05:03,270 --> 02:05:08,420
The next person is Greg Pike and the speakers

1551
02:05:08,420 --> 02:05:09,620
that follow you, thank you, too.

1552
02:05:14,700 --> 02:05:17,480
Good morning, if it is still morning.

1553
02:05:18,180 --> 02:05:20,880
Thank you for the opportunity commissioners

1554
02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:23,680
to speak with you and to allow me to share

1555
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:25,900
some of my concerns regarding this petition.

1556
02:05:26,660 --> 02:05:29,500
Just so that you are aware and to be totally transparent

1557
02:05:29,500 --> 02:05:33,680
with you, Jenny is my stepdaughter, Sean is my son-in-law

1558
02:05:34,220 --> 02:05:37,000
and the two kids that we showed mercy to

1559
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:39,020
and let them leave are my grandchildren.

1560
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:42,660
My wife Nancy and I have lived

1561
02:05:42,660 --> 02:05:53,000
to 2026 Tyler Lane, we live at 2026 Tyler. Our property is probably less than about 200 feet

1562
02:05:53,520 --> 02:06:01,820
from 2833 Tremont. We have been neighbors to this property for quite some time. Nancy has

1563
02:06:01,820 --> 02:06:11,440
lived in this home, Jenny's and Julie's the family home for over 25 years. Myself for the past 13

1564
02:06:11,440 --> 02:06:18,700
years since Nancy and I married. But I actually have about 50 years history with this block. Two

1565
02:06:18,700 --> 02:06:26,820
of my very best high school friends grew up, one grew up at the corner of Tremont and Tyler,

1566
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:35,100
and in a home, the Meyer home that was built in the early 60s. My other friend, Tom Barrett,

1567
02:06:35,660 --> 02:06:40,660
actually lived in the home that Nancy and I lived in at the other block on the corner of

1568
02:06:40,660 --> 02:06:49,760
white way and Tyler. I took this to both of my friends. We have remained friends

1569
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:55,060
all these years. I showed them what we have here, the Powell Smith House and

1570
02:06:55,060 --> 02:07:01,620
Calorama. And I said, guys, did you ever hear any of this growing up?

1571
02:07:10,000 --> 02:07:10,640
Did

1572
02:07:10,640 --> 02:07:14,740
They weren't even remotely aware of any alleged historical significance.

1573
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:21,300
It was just another old house in the neighborhood with a really great front yard to play sports in.

1574
02:07:22,580 --> 02:07:28,420
I also asked Bruce since his parents were the original builder and owners of the house,

1575
02:07:28,700 --> 02:07:34,240
which is directly in front of 2833. I said, when that basement was dug,

1576
02:07:35,020 --> 02:07:39,420
you almost really had a lot to talk about when archaeological things were found.

1577
02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:42,620
He didn't know what I was referring to.

1578
02:07:42,840 --> 02:07:44,080
He said nothing was found.

1579
02:07:46,100 --> 02:07:50,420
Petitioners tell me that we are doing this because of our love of the neighborhood.

1580
02:07:51,340 --> 02:07:55,360
My point here is, where was this love for the past year?

1581
02:07:55,900 --> 02:07:59,840
Where was it a year ago, five years ago, ten years ago, twenty years ago?

1582
02:08:00,740 --> 02:08:02,860
Why wasn't this information shared?

1583
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:05,420
Why wasn't this home celebrated?

1584
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:20,060
Why wasn't some action taken cooperatively with the owners, the previous owners who had this home for, I believe, 40 years and helped them land market?

1585
02:08:21,000 --> 02:08:26,840
Why now is this being done after it has been sold to a new owner as an unencumbered property?

1586
02:08:27,740 --> 02:08:31,940
My second point has to do with not in my backyard syndrome.

1587
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:40,420
A neighbor, not knowing my relationship to the owners, leaned over in a meeting to me

1588
02:08:40,420 --> 02:08:46,360
and said, you know, we moved here 20 years ago for the peace and quiet. I don't want new

1589
02:08:46,360 --> 02:08:53,540
homes being built next to me. I'm sorry, but that's not concerned for a historical home.

1590
02:08:54,820 --> 02:09:01,120
That's an example of resistance to change. Neighborhoods need to be dynamic and able to grow

1591
02:09:01,120 --> 02:09:06,100
with the times to meet the needs of its residents, both old and new residents.

1592
02:09:07,780 --> 02:09:13,880
If 2833 Tremont is landmarked, an opportunity for positive change will be lost,

1593
02:09:14,340 --> 02:09:20,960
and both the immediate neighbors, me included, and especially Jenny and Sean will be the losers here.

1594
02:09:22,280 --> 02:09:29,980
I too love this neighborhood, and I want it to continue to grow and be a vibrant, beautiful area.

1595
02:09:31,120 --> 02:09:37,280
I also know that preservation can absolutely be a part of this, and I respect that.

1596
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:39,320
An example is Farmington.

1597
02:09:39,660 --> 02:09:42,780
It's beautiful and deserved to be landmarked.

1598
02:09:43,380 --> 02:09:49,640
It has the documented history and the physical attributes that are needed for landmarking.

1599
02:09:50,220 --> 02:09:55,240
Factually, ladies and gentlemen, 2833 Tremont does not.

1600
02:09:55,240 --> 02:10:00,440
The petition for landmarking is based on suppositions and assumptions.

1601
02:10:01,260 --> 02:10:07,540
We know that 2833 Tremont has been severely modified from when originally built to the

1602
02:10:07,540 --> 02:10:09,880
degree that has lost any historic character.

1603
02:10:10,580 --> 02:10:15,960
The criteria for landmarking deemed to met are marginal, marginal at best.

1604
02:10:17,040 --> 02:10:24,160
Lastly and most importantly, 2833 Tremont was purchased by Jenny and Sean Unencumbered.

1605
02:10:24,160 --> 02:10:33,240
To reverse this after the petitioners and past owners literally had decades to seek this designation,

1606
02:10:33,540 --> 02:10:40,820
yet didn't, would be unfair to Jenny and Sean and truly a violation of their property rights.

1607
02:10:41,360 --> 02:10:42,880
Thank you very much.

1608
02:10:47,420 --> 02:10:48,060
Thank you.

1609
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:50,620
The next speaker, buddy, mattingly.

1610
02:10:59,020 --> 02:11:03,260
Obviously, I'm going to curtail my remarks somewhat because all of it has been discussed.

1611
02:11:03,260 --> 02:11:05,560
Yes, I do have anything I want.

1612
02:11:05,620 --> 02:11:06,360
Yeah, I didn't mean interrupt.

1613
02:11:06,560 --> 02:11:08,520
You need to state your name too.

1614
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:10,120
My name's Buddy Mattingley.

1615
02:11:10,360 --> 02:11:13,080
I'm a 40-year resident of the Upper Highlands.

1616
02:11:13,580 --> 02:11:16,300
And I'm here to express my support for Ginny and Sean Clifford.

1617
02:11:16,780 --> 02:11:20,460
And they're desire to remove a house and build

1618
02:11:20,460 --> 02:11:22,840
a home of their dreams.

1619
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:26,940
I think they should be allowed to create new memories.

1620
02:11:27,300 --> 02:11:29,200
In that part of Louisville, they so love.

1621
02:11:29,620 --> 02:11:31,680
It's just a stone throw away from Ginny's house.

1622
02:11:31,680 --> 02:11:36,740
and again I'll give you these remarks but I'm not going to repeat everything Sean I just will say

1623
02:11:36,740 --> 02:11:43,780
I sat in my office for two weeks thinking about this and writing this up Sean sat somewhere

1624
02:11:44,640 --> 02:11:52,340
and came up with the same conclusions I haven't talked to Sean we have not any I read their report

1625
02:11:53,080 --> 02:12:00,440
I did disagree with most of it I would suggest that it is vague like Greg just indicated so I'll try

1626
02:12:00,440 --> 02:12:05,900
to skip all the evidence of the new porch, the new design, everything that's been changed

1627
02:12:05,900 --> 02:12:13,800
about that. I will just go to my comments. I believe the statements in the report actually

1628
02:12:13,800 --> 02:12:20,180
support the conclusion that the criteria have not been met rather than been met. There's

1629
02:12:20,180 --> 02:12:26,220
numerous statements that would indicate maybe likely could potentially a brick tunnel,

1630
02:12:26,220 --> 02:12:29,380
No definitive evidence to support that.

1631
02:12:30,160 --> 02:12:35,060
And I don't believe the commission should make any determination as to whether to preserve

1632
02:12:35,060 --> 02:12:42,840
an old house and put a tremendous burden on Jenny and Sean based on words like likely

1633
02:12:44,020 --> 02:12:47,020
could potentially our definitive evidence.

1634
02:12:47,580 --> 02:12:52,580
It's my opinion there are times we simply need to move forward and stop trying to preserve

1635
02:12:53,500 --> 02:12:54,300
an idea.

1636
02:12:54,300 --> 02:13:03,160
The 1836 House does not exist, the House has been altered, modified, modernized, and in

1637
02:13:03,160 --> 02:13:05,280
the case of the school study actually removed.

1638
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:14,240
Those residents in the subdivisions bound by Tyler, Dahlia, Tremont, and Barghtown Road

1639
02:13:14,240 --> 02:13:21,180
should be thrilled that the residents living there long ago didn't prevent Dr. Powell and

1640
02:13:21,180 --> 02:13:27,960
owners, the old past owners, from selling off that valuable property, 40 acres of first

1641
02:13:27,960 --> 02:13:34,160
rate bear grass land, whatever bear grass land is, from ultimately selling off all the

1642
02:13:34,160 --> 02:13:41,760
two acres. Many of the people today, that's you people and you people, would not be living

1643
02:13:41,760 --> 02:13:51,120
there if the residents had stopped progress. I've heard a lot about Bishop Smith. He

1644
02:13:51,120 --> 02:13:55,940
did a lot for the church. I'm not so I haven't heard what he's done for the

1645
02:13:55,940 --> 02:14:00,540
state. It can tuck you the city of Louisville, the Commonwealth, and the

1646
02:14:00,540 --> 02:14:08,560
nation. I don't believe homeschooling is that significant. I don't believe that the

1647
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:13,000
building that you would homeschool in that doesn't look anything like the

1648
02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:19,980
pictures of the 1911 is that significant. The bishop spent less than 20% of his

1649
02:14:19,980 --> 02:14:26,660
life here less than 20% Jenny and Sean have lived in this community much longer and are making

1650
02:14:26,660 --> 02:14:34,820
significant contributions towards its welfare. So what should you be preserving in my opinion? I

1651
02:14:34,820 --> 02:14:41,020
believe you should be preserving the spirit of the upper highlands that spirit not defined by a

1652
02:14:41,020 --> 02:14:47,680
house one lives in rather by the people who continue to be part of the community that is bounded by those

1653
02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:53,880
four streets I mentioned. That spirit comes from people like Sean and Jenny who have

1654
02:14:53,880 --> 02:14:56,840
to live their entire lives as your neighbors.

1655
02:14:58,150 --> 02:14:59,760
That couple who is contributing.

1656
02:14:59,760 --> 02:14:59,980
Thanks for watching.

1657
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:18,060
So much community in their roles in the healthcare industry hope to raise their family as your neighbors. I encourage you to allow them to remove that modern structure, modern structure, and let them build the home of their dreams. Thank you. Thank you very much.

1658
02:15:22,010 --> 02:15:23,370
Perry Lyons is next.

1659
02:15:28,190 --> 02:15:36,730
Perry Lyons 11503 Main Street, Middletown, Kentucky. Thank you for the opportunity to come up here and speak about this. Let me say first I met Jenny.

1660
02:15:37,350 --> 02:15:44,430
at that house to look at remodeling it to see and we went there with the idea

1661
02:15:44,430 --> 02:15:49,430
of remodeling the home, not tearing it down. I spent quite a bit of time in

1662
02:15:49,430 --> 02:15:56,170
there, looked at it structurally, I looked at it architecturally and there

1663
02:15:56,170 --> 02:16:00,270
are a lot of issues with the house, some of which when we look at the pictures

1664
02:16:00,270 --> 02:16:06,710
in here, the house has been altered drastically and I'm very familiar with

1665
02:16:06,710 --> 02:16:13,790
historic properties. I owned a property in Middletown. It was built in 1792. We

1666
02:16:13,790 --> 02:16:18,810
restored it completely. I owned another property in Middletown that was built

1667
02:16:18,810 --> 02:16:27,210
in the 1920s and we again restored it. One that we wanted to remove but they

1668
02:16:27,210 --> 02:16:31,570
wouldn't allow us to do it. I eventually became chairman of the Middletown

1669
02:16:31,570 --> 02:16:36,870
historic commission because of my knowledge about historic property.

1670
02:16:37,170 --> 02:16:41,950
So, I would say that this property, I think you should take a very hard look at it.

1671
02:16:42,130 --> 02:16:48,190
It's got some significance, but does it meet the landmarks?

1672
02:16:49,410 --> 02:16:52,190
I mean different than your report here.

1673
02:16:52,310 --> 02:16:58,910
When I look at item D on page 16, its identification with the person or persons, know a lot about history,

1674
02:16:58,910 --> 02:17:07,910
have spent a lot of time in the field of historic properties and I've never

1675
02:17:07,910 --> 02:17:11,410
heard of this gentleman. Now that doesn't mean I hear of everybody but I had not heard.

1676
02:17:12,250 --> 02:17:15,770
So the identification with that person, I'm not sure that there's a significance

1677
02:17:15,770 --> 02:17:20,090
there that I probably would have had to exhaler here on it does not meet.

1678
02:17:21,350 --> 02:17:30,490
On item age page 17, when it talks about the house in proximity to a relationship with

1679
02:17:30,490 --> 02:17:37,310
other distinctive areas, it would be tough for us and I will say that I'm a builder

1680
02:17:37,310 --> 02:17:41,270
developer but it would be tough for me to ever look at a piece of property because any

1681
02:17:41,270 --> 02:17:49,810
property within a designated area can find a piece of property that we could say has

1682
02:17:49,810 --> 02:17:52,610
some significance with another piece of property.

1683
02:17:53,130 --> 02:17:55,670
I live in a home that I built 40 years ago.

1684
02:17:56,150 --> 02:18:01,330
I'm a builder and a developer, and does that make it,

1685
02:18:01,590 --> 02:18:04,950
I mean, would my property be considered a significant property?

1686
02:18:05,070 --> 02:18:06,210
I think that's what we look at.

1687
02:18:06,910 --> 02:18:12,050
I'm not discounting the farming and I don't discount all the properties on Tyler Lane over there.

1688
02:18:12,470 --> 02:18:16,010
Some of which were built in the 1950s, 60s, 70s.

1689
02:18:16,010 --> 02:18:30,010
So I would say that again, just strictly from a landmarks commission, I would question H whether whether or not that should should have that it would meet or not meet.

1690
02:18:30,010 --> 02:18:39,470
And then on page 18, the unique location in physical characteristics.

1691
02:18:39,490 --> 02:18:41,290
I go back to the physical characteristics.

1692
02:18:41,290 --> 02:18:44,870
If you look at the pictures, it has been altered.

1693
02:18:46,810 --> 02:18:49,850
There's been some question as to whether it's the same building or not.

1694
02:18:51,290 --> 02:18:52,670
The building may have been turned.

1695
02:18:52,930 --> 02:18:53,850
I couldn't tell you that.

1696
02:18:54,030 --> 02:18:58,290
I didn't get into to the take anything apart on the foundation.

1697
02:18:58,290 --> 02:19:26,350
We just looked at it to try to see whether the foundation was, whether we could actually salvage the home and the salvation was structurally sound I didn't take any part of that apart so I can't really say whether the house was turned or not but I tell you it has been it has been altered the dormers definitely have been added to it I think the overhangs on the on the the properties are on the property has been altered significantly from what you look at in the pictures.

1698
02:19:28,150 --> 02:19:34,490
and I would question the validity of this particular house and it is a need house.

1699
02:19:34,710 --> 02:19:42,990
I went there with the thought of trying to save it, but I've got two very, very detailed

1700
02:19:42,990 --> 02:19:48,810
estimates and I can tell you that if you try to put it on the landmarks, it may sit there

1701
02:19:48,810 --> 02:19:50,170
for 50 years in deteriorate.

1702
02:19:50,170 --> 02:19:56,210
We've seen that happen, so I would ask you to look at not putting it on the landowner.

1703
02:19:56,790 --> 02:19:57,710
Thank you.

1704
02:19:57,710 --> 02:19:58,190
Okay.

1705
02:19:58,310 --> 02:19:58,590
Thank you.

1706
02:20:02,250 --> 02:20:03,190
Adam Gallagher.

1707
02:20:05,630 --> 02:20:06,530
Well, thank you.

1708
02:20:06,650 --> 02:20:06,870
Okay.

1709
02:20:07,130 --> 02:20:07,410
All right.

1710
02:20:07,570 --> 02:20:08,170
But you are.

1711
02:20:08,410 --> 02:20:10,170
We just have you down as being opposed.

1712
02:20:10,350 --> 02:20:10,710
Thank you.

1713
02:20:10,830 --> 02:20:12,110
All right.

1714
02:20:12,130 --> 02:20:13,510
And Ben Robbins.

1715
02:20:21,100 --> 02:20:21,960
How are you doing?

1716
02:20:22,160 --> 02:20:22,860
I'm Ben Robbins.

1717
02:20:23,140 --> 02:20:23,580
I'm opposed.

1718
02:20:24,440 --> 02:20:25,460
I'm an architect.

1719
02:20:26,740 --> 02:20:29,240
I've been an architect for 15 years.

1720
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:31,420
I'm licensed in Kentucky.

1721
02:20:32,220 --> 02:20:35,920
Most of my experience was 10 years in Atlanta working

1722
02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:40,020
for, I'd term it the traditional,

1723
02:20:40,380 --> 02:20:44,020
the premier traditional architect in the Southeast,

1724
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:46,400
Harrison Design Associates.

1725
02:20:47,280 --> 02:20:49,720
I want to make two quick points.

1726
02:20:50,480 --> 02:20:53,080
If you look at both of these pictures,

1727
02:20:53,960 --> 02:20:57,360
what sits there now and the original house,

1728
02:20:58,620 --> 02:21:02,340
This is not a historic specimen.

1729
02:21:04,900 --> 02:21:11,200
This house may be the original house, but what's there now has no semblance to that.

1730
02:21:12,300 --> 02:21:18,320
I can't really figure out there's a second floor on what's there now,

1731
02:21:18,320 --> 02:21:21,680
and there's obviously not a second floor on the original house.

1732
02:21:23,820 --> 02:21:32,360
And walking the house yesterday, the second floor just, it doesn't seem safe.

1733
02:21:34,120 --> 02:21:39,620
It was obviously added, the head heights are 6'11", on the second floor, the door heights

1734
02:21:39,960 --> 02:21:42,600
are 6'3".

1735
02:21:43,300 --> 02:21:50,720
Those obviously don't meet code in today's standards and the floor system was added on the

1736
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:59,040
second floor ceiling joists. So the floor system is not structurally set up for, you know,

1737
02:21:59,120 --> 02:22:04,020
what you would expect, you know, the live and dead loads on a second floor. And you'd

1738
02:22:04,020 --> 02:22:13,040
have to tear off the roof and increase the floor system size. So I just don't see renovating

1739
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:19,460
this house and bring it up to code without significant alterations. It just, it didn't

1740
02:22:19,460 --> 02:22:24,640
going to work. So those are my points. Thank you. Thank you.

1741
02:22:28,910 --> 02:22:29,630
Nancy Pike.

1742
02:22:33,320 --> 02:22:33,620
Oh,

1743
02:22:33,660 --> 02:22:39,540
did she have to leave? Okay. Well, we'll record hers being opposed. Shelly Snyder.

1744
02:22:46,870 --> 02:22:51,530
Hi, I'm Shelly Snyder. I live at 1904 Dillon Drive just down the street from

1745
02:22:51,530 --> 02:22:57,230
Heyfield Mansion. My sister is Jenny Clifford. My brother-in-law is Sean, my niece

1746
02:22:57,230 --> 02:23:03,570
and nephew, our Caitlin and Jack, the people that have spoken before have much smarter than

1747
02:23:03,570 --> 02:23:09,050
me, and no much more about this as do you. But what I can tell you is that if this is deemed

1748
02:23:09,050 --> 02:23:15,750
a landmark, the hurt that it will put on our family, who has, regardless of what we have

1749
02:23:15,750 --> 02:23:25,330
been called, greedy, murderers, apparently, it's just untrue. We grew up in the neighborhood,

1750
02:23:25,330 --> 02:23:30,090
neighborhood. We love the neighborhood. We all want to grow back, go back, and raise

1751
02:23:30,090 --> 02:23:35,290
our children there, send our kids to school and walking distance. We are not here to

1752
02:23:35,290 --> 02:23:40,110
destroy the neighborhood as someone has stated. We love this neighborhood. We want to live

1753
02:23:40,110 --> 02:23:46,710
here for 100 years, but we have to live in a home that is safe. And fits our family, is

1754
02:23:46,710 --> 02:23:54,610
up to code, and just makes sense for the neighborhood. And I can tell you if what is missed is going

1755
02:23:54,610 --> 02:24:03,110
to be the family fun. Our family is a lot of fun. I promise you that you will not go without that.

1756
02:24:04,210 --> 02:24:08,890
When this all started, I had just learned I was pregnant with my son. He is now four and a half

1757
02:24:08,890 --> 02:24:16,250
months old. This has been going on too long. It has cost thousands upon thousands of dollars for

1758
02:24:16,250 --> 02:24:22,070
a family that works hard for our community. You can ask their students. You can ask their patients.

1759
02:24:23,370 --> 02:24:27,430
When Jenny called me after getting the call from the reporter, she was leaving the hospital,

1760
02:24:28,370 --> 02:24:32,670
having cared for patients all day to get a call from a reporter about this.

1761
02:24:32,870 --> 02:24:34,790
And I thought, there's no way that this is a story.

1762
02:24:35,630 --> 02:24:39,530
This is a family home and a decision of private property owners.

1763
02:24:39,530 --> 02:24:45,470
I am shocked at the people who have commented against our family and as Sean said, and Jenny

1764
02:24:45,470 --> 02:24:51,530
said, have no idea of truly the history and what has gone on to bring us to this point.

1765
02:24:51,530 --> 02:24:58,650
And just one last thing, a really truly regardless of the pain that you have put our family

1766
02:24:58,650 --> 02:25:01,530
through and the financial strain on my sister.

1767
02:25:02,110 --> 02:25:07,390
You will still be invited to watch the fireworks that will happen on 4th of July on this

1768
02:25:07,390 --> 02:25:11,650
property when Jenny and Shawn build a beautiful home that is only going to add to the neighborhood

1769
02:25:11,650 --> 02:25:16,550
and the property values and the fun that is meant to be what neighborhoods are about.

1770
02:25:16,550 --> 02:25:23,530
out. And that's why I'm 100% opposed to making this landmark. Thank you. Thank you.

1771
02:25:27,710 --> 02:25:29,530
The next speaker is Marilyn Burr.

1772
02:25:38,290 --> 02:25:42,730
Hi, my name is Marilyn Burr. I just have a quick

1773
02:25:43,330 --> 02:25:53,130
little comment. We live on Winston Avenue and the Crossbars Town Road. And in our block,

1774
02:25:53,130 --> 02:26:00,170
there was there has been a new house built we have these you know houses like

1775
02:26:00,170 --> 02:26:07,590
ours that are 80 years old and this

1776
02:26:09,600 --> 02:26:13,300
one is lovely the person the young

1777
02:26:13,300 --> 02:26:22,040
person who has built it has a baby she and her husband and this child and they

1778
02:26:22,040 --> 02:26:29,000
I built a house that on some property that was there and it's a different looking house

1779
02:26:29,420 --> 02:26:36,260
but it's very welcomed and they have been very welcomed by the community around us and

1780
02:26:36,260 --> 02:26:38,900
I think we should think of it that way.

1781
02:26:39,360 --> 02:26:43,200
I also am related to Jenny.

1782
02:26:43,960 --> 02:26:52,020
She has been my niece all of her life and she is a gentle, wonderful person and they have

1783
02:26:52,020 --> 02:26:58,220
suffered and should not suffer anymore. I am against this. Thank you.

1784
02:26:59,000 --> 02:26:59,580
Thank you.

1785
02:27:03,080 --> 02:27:04,720
Rick Wepplin, please.

1786
02:27:13,910 --> 02:27:16,870
Hi, my name is Rick Weppler. I'll be very, very brief.

1787
02:27:17,290 --> 02:27:22,970
I've known Jenny and her family for 45 years. I've known the Clifters, I guess for the

1788
02:27:22,970 --> 02:27:26,230
last 15 years since they they've been part of the family, but I just want to make

1789
02:27:26,230 --> 02:27:31,970
quick comment in the summary, but pretty much this couple, the owners, they've been

1790
02:27:31,970 --> 02:27:34,870
deceived when they were deceived when they bought this

1791
02:27:34,870 --> 02:27:37,530
piece of property by the sellers and I think that needs to be

1792
02:27:37,530 --> 02:27:41,010
emphasized. They bought this in good faith to be able to do

1793
02:27:41,010 --> 02:27:44,410
with what they wanted to with this property. Now the

1794
02:27:44,410 --> 02:27:47,870
petitioners have created stories and a number of speculations

1795
02:27:47,870 --> 02:27:50,930
and assumptions which we've talked they we've heard

1796
02:27:50,930 --> 02:27:56,270
discussed today. My I implore this committee you all have a

1797
02:27:56,270 --> 02:28:01,790
responsibility to be 100% certain before you all place a

1798
02:28:01,790 --> 02:28:06,890
burden on this young family who I think you've seen has already taken on a

1799
02:28:06,890 --> 02:28:10,350
burden that anybody in this in this room here wouldn't want to have to

1800
02:28:10,350 --> 02:28:15,950
undertake. So I please make the right decision and let them create the dream

1801
02:28:15,950 --> 02:28:17,850
house that they want to create. Thank you.

1802
02:28:23,580 --> 02:28:26,140
Okay, thank you. The next speaker and

1803
02:28:26,140 --> 02:28:30,400
the last person I have signed up to speak in opposition is Mike Ward.

1804
02:28:36,630 --> 02:28:36,950
Thank

1805
02:28:36,950 --> 02:28:42,010
you so much. My name is Mike Ward and of course I'm no stranger to

1806
02:28:42,010 --> 02:28:45,750
to public speaking, and I appreciate the opportunity

1807
02:28:45,750 --> 02:28:46,730
to be here today.

1808
02:28:46,990 --> 02:28:49,770
But today, I'm not here as a politician.

1809
02:28:49,770 --> 02:28:51,170
I'm here as Uncle Mike.

1810
02:28:52,490 --> 02:28:53,350
Jenny is my niece.

1811
02:28:54,790 --> 02:28:58,510
Her aunt, my wife, Dean Heverin, who is her attorney today,

1812
02:28:59,030 --> 02:29:00,650
is a volunteer attorney.

1813
02:29:01,090 --> 02:29:05,010
That has not been very luckily for Jenny and Sean

1814
02:29:05,010 --> 02:29:08,050
and all the financial burden this has caused.

1815
02:29:08,810 --> 02:29:10,690
Not a burden they've had to bear.

1816
02:29:10,690 --> 02:29:12,850
They've gotten a free lawyer.

1817
02:29:13,590 --> 02:29:19,330
You know, a couple of points, if this was Bishop Smith's house, and that has not been

1818
02:29:19,330 --> 02:29:27,550
established 100 percent, there are already in Kentucky for other historic sites, for

1819
02:29:27,550 --> 02:29:30,910
other historic sites in Kentucky related to Bishop Smith.

1820
02:29:33,130 --> 02:29:39,570
And his vice chair, the vice chairman vice, that would be nice.

1821
02:29:39,570 --> 02:29:47,890
As Chairman Vice has said, the house is not very clear, it is not very clear that this

1822
02:29:47,890 --> 02:29:50,430
is the house that's in those pictures.

1823
02:29:51,050 --> 02:29:56,310
I have looked at those pictures a hundred times, I've been with Sean when he's measured

1824
02:29:56,630 --> 02:29:59,930
to see if the windows are in the right place and it does not

1825
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:29,680
Aye. Match up, especially if what we're seeing as the front of the house and the Calorama picture is really the side with the pool on it. If you look at the side with the pool on it, it isn't even close to what the front of that house looks like. As you pointed out, Bob, excuse me, Mr. Chairman, the distant, you know, there is an offset in that facade of the house. The kitchen that is on the left,

1826
02:30:29,680 --> 02:30:35,800
as you're facing what is currently the front of the house with the front porch isn't there.

1827
02:30:36,140 --> 02:30:43,260
It is not the same as the building that's on the right of the house in the photograph you see.

1828
02:30:43,700 --> 02:30:51,020
So it is simply not clear that this is the house that they have referred to this whole time.

1829
02:30:52,100 --> 02:30:55,880
There have been a number of mentions to 800 signatures.

1830
02:30:55,880 --> 02:30:59,580
Well, I've done a lot of petition gathering.

1831
02:30:59,900 --> 02:31:05,380
I've done a lot of door to door work in my political life and I can tell you that if you

1832
02:31:05,380 --> 02:31:11,500
go to a door and have a reasonable explanation, we need you to sign this petition because

1833
02:31:11,500 --> 02:31:16,060
we don't want this house torn down, you're going to get a lot of signatures.

1834
02:31:16,940 --> 02:31:22,540
You'll notice there are not 800 people here speaking to designate this as an historic

1835
02:31:22,540 --> 02:31:28,660
property. In fact, there is a fellow out front before we started who said, is this

1836
02:31:28,660 --> 02:31:32,580
where the meeting is? And I, of course, immediately said, where are you here in

1837
02:31:32,580 --> 02:31:38,780
favor or opposed? You know, I was going to tell him the wrong room. And he said,

1838
02:31:38,780 --> 02:31:44,400
well, I live directly behind the house right next to the pool. And I'm concerned

1839
02:31:44,400 --> 02:31:47,800
that they're going to build condos there. So, well, where did you get that idea?

1840
02:31:47,800 --> 02:31:54,620
This is my niece's house. She wants to build a new house on that site and make it the home for her children.

1841
02:31:55,540 --> 02:31:58,920
And he said, well, that's what I heard when the people came to my door.

1842
02:31:59,860 --> 02:32:07,340
Now, I don't know what anybody said at any door, but I can repeat to you exactly what he told me this morning.

1843
02:32:07,660 --> 02:32:12,360
He couldn't stay. He had to go to work because he was going to get up and make that point.

1844
02:32:14,560 --> 02:32:21,860
Jenny and Sean called to find out if this was an historic property. That was a concern

1845
02:32:21,860 --> 02:32:30,960
to them. They called to find out and they were told it was not. Then they bought the house.

1846
02:32:31,480 --> 02:32:36,700
They fell in love with this house. They saw it as something they could fix up with their

1847
02:32:36,700 --> 02:32:39,800
an egg at eye and make a home for their family.

1848
02:32:40,220 --> 02:32:44,000
Well, you've heard from the builder and the architect,

1849
02:32:44,580 --> 02:32:46,940
not just a couple of people off the street,

1850
02:32:47,440 --> 02:32:50,140
a builder and an architect who have come in and told them

1851
02:32:50,140 --> 02:32:53,180
it doesn't make financial sense.

1852
02:32:53,820 --> 02:32:56,300
Now, I know the designation of an historic landmark

1853
02:32:56,300 --> 02:33:00,600
does not rely on the economic underlying situation,

1854
02:33:00,880 --> 02:33:02,540
but it's certainly a factor.

1855
02:33:02,540 --> 02:33:09,420
this house cannot be restored. You probably couldn't get a mortgage on it if you

1856
02:33:09,420 --> 02:33:13,520
put the money in it that you needed to because it wouldn't appraise for the

1857
02:33:13,520 --> 02:33:19,140
value you needed. You've heard from Ms. Cecil that she made an offer on the house

1858
02:33:19,140 --> 02:33:27,640
that's true. Barely half of the purchase price and barely half of the asking price

1859
02:33:27,640 --> 02:33:29,140
it's a $550,000.

1860
02:33:30,040 --> 02:33:31,480
So there is not.

1861
02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:35,220
Six months is a pretty good opportunity

1862
02:33:35,220 --> 02:33:37,980
for someone who felt this could be done

1863
02:33:38,460 --> 02:33:42,540
in a way that made any economic sense at all to find out.

1864
02:33:43,980 --> 02:33:44,780
There isn't.

1865
02:33:45,020 --> 02:33:47,300
It just doesn't work financially.

1866
02:33:47,920 --> 02:33:50,620
I've been through, my dad was an architect.

1867
02:33:51,140 --> 02:33:53,900
I've gone through old houses since the time I could walk.

1868
02:33:53,900 --> 02:34:03,060
he specialized in revitalizing things and I have a great appreciation for our

1869
02:34:03,060 --> 02:34:09,340
community's history because of that. This house cannot be done in a way that

1870
02:34:09,340 --> 02:34:14,620
makes it allows you to get a mortgage to pay for the house and then lastly the

1871
02:34:14,620 --> 02:34:19,180
decision that you have in front of you I know is a tough one but remember these

1872
02:34:19,180 --> 02:34:23,320
people don't want to build condominiums they don't want to put a shopping

1873
02:34:23,320 --> 02:34:28,700
center there. They want to build a new home for them and their family. Thank you.

1874
02:34:29,820 --> 02:34:30,500
Thank you.

1875
02:34:34,120 --> 02:34:39,180
And we did have one speaker who signed up Shelly Snyder that didn't

1876
02:34:39,180 --> 02:34:45,580
indicate for her pose but she signed up to speak. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, you already

1877
02:34:45,580 --> 02:34:50,400
spoke. Okay, sorry about that. Okay, they just lot of names. Is there anyone else at

1878
02:34:50,400 --> 02:34:54,860
this time? This is everybody who has signed up. Is there anyone else who wishes to

1879
02:34:54,860 --> 02:34:57,720
speak before we conclude the public hearing portion.

1880
02:34:59,520 --> 02:35:04,820
Okay, if Tina, if I'm gonna let him have some or bottle and I'll give you the same, okay.

1881
02:35:06,160 --> 02:35:06,640
Yes.

1882
02:35:09,550 --> 02:35:16,490
Sir, I'm going to advise the, you also have written testimony and received that I was up there

1883
02:35:16,490 --> 02:35:22,250
and just to make sure that we have that acknowledged for the record as well, that I receive 58 emails

1884
02:35:22,250 --> 02:35:25,530
in support and 27 opposed.

1885
02:35:25,530 --> 02:35:28,810
And you have provided copies of those here.

1886
02:35:29,350 --> 02:35:30,930
They've been floating around, although it's, yeah.

1887
02:35:30,970 --> 02:35:33,130
Okay. Thank you.

1888
02:35:33,130 --> 02:35:34,390
And yeah, come on forward.

1889
02:35:37,950 --> 02:35:40,170
Of course, I'm deeply sympathetic with the family.

1890
02:35:40,650 --> 02:35:44,050
And I'm sure that everyone who's given very recent comments this morning

1891
02:35:44,890 --> 02:35:49,730
would probably be willing to apologize to the family for this sharp comments

1892
02:35:49,730 --> 02:35:52,150
directed toward them in the part in this process.

1893
02:35:52,930 --> 02:35:57,910
However, this is the correct process to make sure that we aren't about to demolish

1894
02:35:57,910 --> 02:36:03,210
important part of the city's history. The history is pretty clear as we have it before us.

1895
02:36:04,190 --> 02:36:09,910
Our historical preservation officer is painstakingly provided a reasoned and measured study based

1896
02:36:09,910 --> 02:36:16,670
on historical fact. If you'll look at the 1859 survey in your packets, you'll see we're very

1897
02:36:16,670 --> 02:36:23,070
clearly this home is identified as the Smith House. Bishop Smith lived in this house.

1898
02:36:23,070 --> 02:36:28,810
The personal interpretation of history that's been offered today is largely irrelevant.

1899
02:36:29,670 --> 02:36:35,070
Whether the people testifying today find Bishop Smith's life to be important or not is irrelevant.

1900
02:36:35,810 --> 02:36:40,730
You've heard plenty of evidence today to see that Bishop Smith was a very important person

1901
02:36:40,730 --> 02:36:41,770
in the history of Kentucky.

1902
02:36:42,630 --> 02:36:47,150
He was a superintendent of public schools in the early days of our state.

1903
02:36:47,690 --> 02:36:50,450
Additionally, he was the state's first episcopal bishop.

1904
02:36:51,410 --> 02:36:57,190
Furthermore, this house will not remain empty for 50 years should you give it to the landmarks designation.

1905
02:36:57,970 --> 02:37:00,970
The Kentucky Historical Trust is offered to buy this property.

1906
02:37:01,570 --> 02:37:03,850
There's at least one other person in the room who's offered.

1907
02:37:05,110 --> 02:37:06,750
Thank you very much for your consideration.

1908
02:37:07,750 --> 02:37:08,050
Thank you.

1909
02:37:09,330 --> 02:37:16,570
And I said Tina, but actually, if there's somebody else, you or someone else that wants to robot on behalf of the homeowner.

1910
02:37:16,570 --> 02:37:19,930
Or have another comment, I should say, yeah, thank you.

1911
02:37:19,930 --> 02:37:21,070
I should have another comment.

1912
02:37:22,230 --> 02:37:25,690
My name is Tina Haveren, I'm familiar with the landmarks ordinance.

1913
02:37:26,350 --> 02:37:34,890
I think that it's important to remember that this area of the upper highlands is not a designated landmarks district.

1914
02:37:35,570 --> 02:37:39,810
It doesn't have the characteristics of a landmarks district itself.

1915
02:37:40,590 --> 02:37:43,790
And it probably, we really believe that this house,

1916
02:37:43,790 --> 02:37:48,910
because you cannot demonstrate that this house is actually the house referred to as Vicious

1917
02:37:48,910 --> 02:37:51,170
Smith's home in the historic record.

1918
02:37:52,810 --> 02:37:59,830
As my husband said, Mike Bord, office close, four churches across the state of Kentucky

1919
02:37:59,830 --> 02:38:04,950
are part of, have been designated on the National Register of Churches that have been associated

1920
02:38:04,950 --> 02:38:06,290
with Bishop Smith.

1921
02:38:06,290 --> 02:38:15,390
Those are appropriate facilities to honor a major religious figure in the state of Kentucky.

1922
02:38:16,130 --> 02:38:22,530
A house he may have rented for a while, he may have lived in for a while while he was

1923
02:38:22,530 --> 02:38:27,330
traveling, he didn't really have a lot of time to live there since he was on a course going

1924
02:38:27,330 --> 02:38:36,370
across Kentucky a lot is not necessarily the correct kind of remembrance of a religious

1925
02:38:36,370 --> 02:38:36,830
figure.

1926
02:38:37,110 --> 02:38:41,110
We think he has been honored across the state of Kentucky and this house really doesn't

1927
02:38:41,110 --> 02:38:42,490
need to be preserved for that purpose.

1928
02:38:43,130 --> 02:38:43,510
Thank you.

1929
02:38:44,570 --> 02:38:44,950
Okay.

1930
02:38:45,090 --> 02:38:45,770
Thank you.

1931
02:38:49,330 --> 02:38:55,490
Well, if there's no further comments at this time then we will conclude the public hearing

1932
02:38:55,490 --> 02:39:00,410
and the Commission, although it's now quarter till 12,

1933
02:39:01,010 --> 02:39:04,350
the Commission will now consider the question of designation

1934
02:39:05,150 --> 02:39:08,550
and the record of the hearing is going to be entered

1935
02:39:09,270 --> 02:39:11,370
with one of the reasons we meet in this room,

1936
02:39:11,370 --> 02:39:14,490
as you all know, is because of the technology now we can,

1937
02:39:14,790 --> 02:39:17,430
it's all on record, it's video and audio,

1938
02:39:18,170 --> 02:39:21,970
and I think at some point it probably gets uploaded to a website.

1939
02:39:22,750 --> 02:39:23,430
Yeah, thank you.

1940
02:39:23,430 --> 02:39:31,370
So, we now will now conclude the public hearing and engage in discussion questions by the

1941
02:39:31,370 --> 02:39:38,890
commission based on what we've heard from Cynthia in the designation report and also what

1942
02:39:38,890 --> 02:39:40,070
we've heard from other speakers.

1943
02:39:42,310 --> 02:39:48,510
First of all, are there any commissioners that have questions of either further questions

1944
02:39:48,510 --> 02:39:53,330
of Cynthia now that we've heard everything, or even questions of the petitioner or the

1945
02:39:53,330 --> 02:39:57,170
property owner that would want to speak, you know, Commissioner Mahan, and you need

1946
02:39:57,170 --> 02:39:57,290
that.

1947
02:39:57,410 --> 02:39:57,730
We got to turn.

1948
02:39:58,390 --> 02:39:59,010
Thank you.

1949
02:39:59,950 --> 02:40:07,070
I'm having a hard time reconciling the photographs we have, the two, it appears that there are two

1950
02:40:07,070 --> 02:40:13,610
photographs that we have that are labels as a Calorama home, both of the same side of

1951
02:40:13,610 --> 02:40:13,930
the home.

1952
02:40:13,930 --> 02:40:17,710
And the one that we've seen from farther away,

1953
02:40:17,830 --> 02:40:19,170
but there's one that's closer.

1954
02:40:19,590 --> 02:40:21,710
Right, the one that's in the PowerPoint presentation

1955
02:40:21,710 --> 02:40:22,350
is closer.

1956
02:40:22,770 --> 02:40:23,330
Right, right.

1957
02:40:23,430 --> 02:40:27,490
But it's the same perspective, because of that.

1958
02:40:27,810 --> 02:40:29,730
Right, I'm having a hard time reconciling

1959
02:40:29,730 --> 02:40:32,370
that with the photographs we have of the current home.

1960
02:40:33,230 --> 02:40:37,090
I wonder, does a 1905 sandborn, does it go out this far?

1961
02:40:37,450 --> 02:40:37,730
No.

1962
02:40:38,190 --> 02:40:38,810
That's too bad.

1963
02:40:39,410 --> 02:40:45,830
Well, then other than, I don't really think we have enough information at this point,

1964
02:40:46,030 --> 02:40:53,450
especially given the new information provided by the applicant, I mean by the homeowner,

1965
02:40:54,710 --> 02:41:01,150
it seems to me that I would like personally to take a look at the home physically myself,

1966
02:41:01,790 --> 02:41:04,990
to get a picture, to better understand.

1967
02:41:04,990 --> 02:41:09,150
and I think there are things that you could see on site

1968
02:41:09,150 --> 02:41:12,650
that would help me at least get a better idea

1969
02:41:12,650 --> 02:41:14,430
whether these are the same building.

1970
02:41:18,320 --> 02:41:19,740
Thank you, Commissioner behind us.

1971
02:41:20,200 --> 02:41:22,100
Any other comments from other commissioners?

1972
02:41:22,180 --> 02:41:24,100
I have a question, Cynthia.

1973
02:41:25,300 --> 02:41:26,000
Regarding the windows again,

1974
02:41:26,800 --> 02:41:33,320
because when I looked through the report from the survey,

1975
02:41:34,940 --> 02:41:39,600
It shows those windows as having a single light underneath.

1976
02:41:40,100 --> 02:41:41,880
Yes, I did confirm that from my phone.

1977
02:41:42,120 --> 02:41:43,520
Pictures too that I took when I was at on site.

1978
02:41:43,660 --> 02:41:45,860
The ones that are on the north elevation are 6 over 1.

1979
02:41:46,440 --> 02:41:51,520
The raised basement windows on the west elevation have the 6 over 6 pattern.

1980
02:41:52,580 --> 02:41:54,860
And there could be, I mean, there's that porch that's built out.

1981
02:41:54,960 --> 02:42:00,660
I don't know if the windows are still there from the raised basement piece on the north elevation.

1982
02:42:02,900 --> 02:42:20,560
So it's hard to say those are from and I didn't go in the house when I was there on the site, but where the there's a door way that raised basement part. So there were no windows of evident six or six on the lower part of it.

1983
02:42:20,560 --> 02:42:26,600
on the, on the, there's the federal doorway on the south elevation, then there's another

1984
02:42:26,600 --> 02:42:32,040
doorway that's a basement, or a French doors, so could have been a window.

1985
02:42:35,780 --> 02:42:41,160
We think that the windows have been modified, though, that might not be right.

1986
02:42:42,240 --> 02:42:46,240
Although there are the lentils on the north elevation, bullseye lentils.

1987
02:42:49,700 --> 02:42:56,260
I have a number of comments, but I'll wait two week to finish asking questions to staff and then present those.

1988
02:42:56,940 --> 02:42:57,260
Thank you.

1989
02:42:57,420 --> 02:42:57,980
Sure.

1990
02:42:58,300 --> 02:43:00,020
Are there other questions?

1991
02:43:02,940 --> 02:43:13,900
Well, while you're thinking about that, actually, Cynthia, I do have a question that is sort of intriguingly just because of my other experience professionally with historic buildings.

1992
02:43:13,900 --> 02:43:19,560
and I may even offer the Joanne Weeter concignment on this.

1993
02:43:20,120 --> 02:43:23,400
I've had experience in the past where, for tax credit purposes,

1994
02:43:23,600 --> 02:43:26,160
we've tried to get properties listed on the National Register

1995
02:43:26,160 --> 02:43:27,840
that had been substantially altered.

1996
02:43:28,640 --> 02:43:31,960
And we couldn't get them on because they've been substantially altered.

1997
02:43:33,100 --> 02:43:38,900
And the only way, for example, we got the Howard Hardy House on in downtown Louisville,

1998
02:43:39,040 --> 02:43:42,240
which was at that time only one of three remaining residences in downtown

1999
02:43:42,740 --> 02:43:47,700
was to prove to the keeper, and I didn't do it, I wasn't the architect, but the firm

2000
02:43:47,700 --> 02:43:51,960
that did had to prove to the keeper that they could do enough architectural archaeology

2001
02:43:52,440 --> 02:43:58,180
on that building to show that there was something under the old Miller cafeteria that could

2002
02:43:58,180 --> 02:44:04,700
be restored and listed on the national register, and they eventually did prove that, but it

2003
02:44:04,700 --> 02:44:10,640
was a substantial effort, and frankly some risks, because they had to take off whole sections

2004
02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:15,900
of that building that had been added because the keeper wasn't going to list it as it was.

2005
02:44:17,760 --> 02:44:26,000
And I just question whether as it sits today, that house, and I don't, again, I want to

2006
02:44:26,720 --> 02:44:32,700
figure out if I'm not sure that the house we're looking at today is the house in this photograph

2007
02:44:33,200 --> 02:44:38,400
and if it is how it's been altered, but as it sits today, could that house be listed on

2008
02:44:38,400 --> 02:44:43,180
the National Register and I know that's speculation and we're not the keeper of the National Register

2009
02:44:43,180 --> 02:44:49,100
although we are a local preservation district and we do review and approve National Register

2010
02:44:49,100 --> 02:44:55,100
nominations. But and if this House were a tax credit project they'd be asking us to designate

2011
02:44:55,100 --> 02:44:59,980
and of course again that question would come up. I just wonder if you have an opinion about this.

2012
02:45:00,110 --> 02:45:30,090
And I hope that's not a very question. No, my prior life, I was a national registered consultant before coming to the Landmarks Commission. So I did 13 different nominations over that time. In my experience, those buildings to me in historic integrity and the significance are intertwined. And the buildings, I would make the argument, historic context is demonstrating why a building was significant and then demonstrating the integrity of the building that is representative of

2013
02:45:30,090 --> 02:45:30,850
of that significance.

2014
02:45:31,730 --> 02:45:34,910
So I wouldn't want to speculate with the National Register

2015
02:45:34,910 --> 02:45:36,690
would do with this particular property.

2016
02:45:37,930 --> 02:45:43,250
But an individual level of a nomination integrity

2017
02:45:43,250 --> 02:45:45,610
is just as important a significance I would argue.

2018
02:45:46,430 --> 02:45:50,530
I do have one nomination that I did do in Winchester, Kentucky

2019
02:45:50,530 --> 02:45:52,250
that had had some alterations.

2020
02:45:52,430 --> 02:45:56,170
But they're still recognizable from the particular,

2021
02:45:56,270 --> 02:45:59,290
the primary facade, you could still,

2022
02:45:59,290 --> 02:46:01,370
from its original period of significance.

2023
02:46:01,610 --> 02:46:03,710
So that's my, and I don't know less about the experience

2024
02:46:03,710 --> 02:46:06,170
with National Register, look, and Joanne may have.

2025
02:46:06,250 --> 02:46:09,090
And I'm trying to do the debate, but it's just that we're

2026
02:46:09,090 --> 02:46:10,670
sort of confronted here with the building

2027
02:46:10,670 --> 02:46:13,130
that appears to have been substantially altered.

2028
02:46:14,330 --> 02:46:18,510
I would characterize it slightly differently.

2029
02:46:19,050 --> 02:46:23,290
Instead of characterizing it as significantly altered,

2030
02:46:23,290 --> 02:46:35,490
I would characterize the house as a, you know, property that dates from potentially around 1836 that has evolved over time.

2031
02:46:36,550 --> 02:46:52,690
From a federal-style house into a craftsman bungalow with neoclassical detailing and I would submit that there are too many to count national register properties that are, you know, craftsman bungalows,

2032
02:46:52,690 --> 02:46:54,890
that appear as craftsmen bungalows now.

2033
02:46:55,470 --> 02:47:02,870
I think that when you have a structure that dates to the early 1800s,

2034
02:47:03,110 --> 02:47:08,070
it is certainly not unusual for houses to change.

2035
02:47:08,070 --> 02:47:11,930
It was fashionable for a house to change just as today.

2036
02:47:12,190 --> 02:47:19,230
We sometimes change portacos or ad garages and things of that nature to update.

2037
02:47:19,230 --> 02:47:27,650
So I see it as an example of a federal house that has evolved into the craftsman bungalow

2038
02:47:27,650 --> 02:47:33,350
that it is today, and I would submit that that's part of the natural evolution of the

2039
02:47:33,350 --> 02:47:33,630
house.

2040
02:47:35,070 --> 02:47:35,450
I

2041
02:47:41,340 --> 02:47:44,760
had Cynthia had one other question, I'm sorry I forgot to ask it earlier.

2042
02:47:44,760 --> 02:47:52,440
I'm sorry on on your page 26 you have an enlarged version of the of the photograph

2043
02:47:53,680 --> 02:47:59,240
1911 photograph yes to the right of the building there appears to be a

2044
02:47:59,240 --> 02:48:04,380
building in the background a two-story building do you have any idea what that

2045
02:48:04,380 --> 02:48:11,720
is there's a there's a window there's a window pattern I do not know

2046
02:48:11,720 --> 02:48:14,700
Yeah, that seems to be that's two-story building.

2047
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:19,140
And it's far enough in the background to be maybe

2048
02:48:19,140 --> 02:48:22,500
on a separate piece of property or some large out building.

2049
02:48:23,100 --> 02:48:23,600
Right.

2050
02:48:24,560 --> 02:48:29,920
I mean, I see there's two lower or potential openings there.

2051
02:48:30,460 --> 02:48:34,180
Yeah, but there's one on page 26.

2052
02:48:34,380 --> 02:48:37,620
There's one to the right of the tree that appears

2053
02:48:37,620 --> 02:48:38,660
to be on the second floor.

2054
02:48:38,760 --> 02:48:40,080
Maybe that's something else.

2055
02:48:40,080 --> 02:48:43,420
Yeah, yeah, it's hard to tell if

2056
02:48:47,320 --> 02:48:50,120
I could just jump in with a with a thought

2057
02:48:51,120 --> 02:48:58,240
Cynthia, I wonder have you did you have an opportunity to look at the Park Areal survey photos that date from

2058
02:48:59,020 --> 02:48:59,620
I would

2059
02:49:00,280 --> 02:49:00,880
Submit

2060
02:49:00,880 --> 02:49:01,700
1928

2061
02:49:02,220 --> 02:49:06,280
They're about didn't have a chance to find them yet. I think that

2062
02:49:08,020 --> 02:49:12,080
Perhaps the staff needs a touch more time

2063
02:49:13,200 --> 02:49:26,480
to evaluate and I guess provide some validity that the house there is today was indeed the

2064
02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:33,660
the Bishop Smith House and I think that the Park Aerial Survey images would would verify that.

2065
02:49:37,260 --> 02:49:41,480
Well, it's a valid point. I'm not familiar with that document, but are you talking about

2066
02:49:41,480 --> 02:49:47,020
aerial photographs? The Park Aerial Survey Company was housed in the Old Bowman Field,

2067
02:49:47,360 --> 02:49:53,860
and they are the, to my knowledge, the oldest aerial photography company in the nation,

2068
02:49:54,500 --> 02:50:00,060
and so they would, they certainly in the Louisville area, I'm not sure whether they go out quite

2069
02:50:00,060 --> 02:50:09,000
this far in the rural area but it would have been in the 20s but they photographed to my knowledge

2070
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:14,580
the entire city of Louisville and that might provide some additional data.

2071
02:50:15,460 --> 02:50:22,380
Thank you. I also had another question trying to unravel the orientation of this house and all that.

2072
02:50:22,380 --> 02:50:34,460
And I think in the report and also in the material that I think that the petitioners provided there's a this is probably opal logic.

2073
02:50:34,640 --> 02:50:44,320
Yeah, we actually we have the great. Okay. So on this. Well, yeah, it says logic. So I assume this is the carriage house or the garage down here in the corner.

2074
02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:48,680
And which where the which where the doors facing on that building.

2075
02:50:48,680 --> 02:50:50,980
they face towards the south elevation.

2076
02:50:51,460 --> 02:50:52,860
So they face away from the house?

2077
02:50:53,080 --> 02:50:54,000
They face toward the house.

2078
02:50:54,160 --> 02:50:56,100
Oh, they face toward that south elevation.

2079
02:50:56,120 --> 02:50:57,760
Oh, they face the south elevation house.

2080
02:50:58,660 --> 02:51:00,540
Okay, so if this was the front of the house,

2081
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:04,360
if we were looking at the front of the house

2082
02:51:04,360 --> 02:51:06,660
like the 1911 photo at the south,

2083
02:51:07,160 --> 02:51:08,680
the carriage house would have been

2084
02:51:08,680 --> 02:51:13,900
to the photographers' right rear facing the house.

2085
02:51:15,040 --> 02:51:17,740
Potentially, they could have been in between the house

2086
02:51:17,740 --> 02:51:23,960
and the carat house, but the other thing to consider it could still be the north elevation

2087
02:51:23,960 --> 02:51:25,480
is the primary elevation.

2088
02:51:26,380 --> 02:51:28,820
If you look at, you know, I mean, that's what it's a mystery.

2089
02:51:30,140 --> 02:51:34,500
If you look at the north elevation of the house and imagine the porch is taken off, then

2090
02:51:34,500 --> 02:51:40,600
you can see the window pattern and the federal style door, then the raised basement.

2091
02:51:41,360 --> 02:51:48,600
The octagonal addition is what I think makes why the orientation seems like this must

2092
02:51:48,600 --> 02:51:50,800
be the south elevation because that's on the right side.

2093
02:51:51,340 --> 02:51:55,340
But another option could have been that got torn away at some point because we pretty

2094
02:51:55,900 --> 02:52:01,780
sure that the octagonal addition that now serves the kitchen is not the original picture.

2095
02:52:04,720 --> 02:52:09,020
So I looked at it several times too, I went back and forth which is the primary elevation.

2096
02:52:09,020 --> 02:52:16,080
I mean, you know, it's, that's, it's hard to tell, but the, and the, because the entry

2097
02:52:16,080 --> 02:52:23,060
ways are, is ornate on both sides, yeah, and so much like Farmington itself or, yeah,

2098
02:52:23,200 --> 02:52:28,360
the central passage house, yeah, so, and it's possible that the staircase, you know,

2099
02:52:28,500 --> 02:52:32,080
with everybody's acknowledging there's been alterations on the interior, maybe somebody

2100
02:52:32,080 --> 02:52:35,840
moved the staircase at some point, or that's where the staircase was, and it's just that,

2101
02:52:35,840 --> 02:52:41,060
because there's a little while I just could see from looking in the window while the jets out on it.

2102
02:52:41,200 --> 02:52:52,220
So reading the building from those elements too, it's hard to definitively say which elevation was the front at a certain time.

2103
02:52:52,420 --> 02:52:52,580
Okay.

2104
02:52:52,680 --> 02:52:56,100
There are references that Tyler Lane was the address as well.

2105
02:52:56,700 --> 02:53:00,160
Okay. Well, thank you. I'm just trying to understand what I'm looking at.

2106
02:53:00,300 --> 02:53:01,300
Okay. Thank you very much.

2107
02:53:01,300 --> 02:53:02,400
Mr. Chairman.

2108
02:53:02,880 --> 02:53:02,940
Yes.

2109
02:53:03,260 --> 02:53:08,420
I chair the board of Riverside, the Farnsley-Morban landing.

2110
02:53:09,060 --> 02:53:20,500
Our house was built in 1837 and the pictures identified the house as it looks now.

2111
02:53:21,200 --> 02:53:31,000
There was a kitchen built and when we restored the house, that kitchen was removed but the

2112
02:53:31,000 --> 02:53:41,300
The house is still identifiable from 1837 and looking at these pictures, it's hard to

2113
02:53:41,300 --> 02:53:44,800
think that this is the same house.

2114
02:53:47,270 --> 02:53:47,670
Thank you.

2115
02:53:49,350 --> 02:53:52,250
Other questions or comments of the commission?

2116
02:53:53,530 --> 02:53:54,230
Sure.

2117
02:53:54,770 --> 02:53:54,890
Yeah.

2118
02:53:55,030 --> 02:53:55,570
The commissioner is talking.

2119
02:53:57,390 --> 02:54:02,810
First, let me say I appreciate everyone coming because that's what this process is all

2120
02:54:02,810 --> 02:54:03,050
about.

2121
02:54:03,150 --> 02:54:08,490
Everyone being able to say what they want to say during this process and my heart definitely

2122
02:54:08,490 --> 02:54:09,510
goes out to the family.

2123
02:54:11,250 --> 02:54:16,490
I probably would do the same thing if I was in your situation, but we do have to remember

2124
02:54:16,490 --> 02:54:22,430
as a commission that we have to treat everyone the same.

2125
02:54:22,430 --> 02:54:28,870
So, whether it's a developer worth millions of dollars standing there against this petition

2126
02:54:28,870 --> 02:54:35,130
or someone in your situation, we have to be fair and treat them the same.

2127
02:54:36,270 --> 02:54:39,610
And, unfortunately, that's the way it is.

2128
02:54:41,130 --> 02:54:51,330
I will say that the issue with the orientation of the House, I think that it's very well

2129
02:54:51,330 --> 02:54:55,850
likely that this is the house. It's not unusual for houses for their

2130
02:54:55,850 --> 02:55:00,730
orientations. The change, and that doesn't mean physically taking the house and

2131
02:55:00,730 --> 02:55:04,290
turning it around. It means that you just make the back door the front door and

2132
02:55:04,290 --> 02:55:08,130
the front door the back door. And this has happened many times. You know, and if

2133
02:55:08,130 --> 02:55:13,090
that was an exclusionary for being a landmark, then Locust grow would not be a

2134
02:55:13,090 --> 02:55:18,910
landmark. Same thing happened there. And so this is something that happened all the

2135
02:55:18,910 --> 02:55:23,750
time especially with these kinds of houses because that's the way they were built.

2136
02:55:24,010 --> 02:55:26,890
So these orientations change all the time.

2137
02:55:27,900 --> 02:55:36,590
It is not unusual and I can see where the elevations are just just with sides in this case.

2138
02:55:36,830 --> 02:55:38,230
Certainly, there's been a lot of modification.

2139
02:55:38,830 --> 02:55:42,790
I think people made the point that these buildings have been all over time.

2140
02:55:43,170 --> 02:55:43,710
Thank you, Joanne.

2141
02:55:44,690 --> 02:55:51,750
Again, some of our most notable landmarks, because they were changed over time, precluded

2142
02:55:51,750 --> 02:55:57,210
them from becoming landmarks, they would not be landmarks, just because they look differently

2143
02:55:57,210 --> 02:56:01,290
today, because they've had all that stripped away and they're preserved to a particular

2144
02:56:01,290 --> 02:56:07,690
time, doesn't mean that it's really much different than this particular case.

2145
02:56:08,010 --> 02:56:11,830
To me, this is a textbook example of what's happened to buildings over time.

2146
02:56:11,830 --> 02:56:17,150
And then our discussion today is also a textbook example of how history works.

2147
02:56:18,750 --> 02:56:24,890
It's amazing how you can take these pretty much the same information and have two people

2148
02:56:24,890 --> 02:56:28,670
look at it through different lenses and get completely different answers.

2149
02:56:29,610 --> 02:56:30,950
And that's the nature of history.

2150
02:56:32,090 --> 02:56:38,570
We're never going to know the past and as a professional in the field, we're never going to know exactly

2151
02:56:38,570 --> 02:56:39,130
what happened.

2152
02:56:39,310 --> 02:56:40,450
That's the way it is.

2153
02:56:40,450 --> 02:56:46,790
And we write history in the present, but we have to take what gives us the most information.

2154
02:56:47,390 --> 02:56:51,030
And is it going to be evidence that supported in the court of law?

2155
02:56:51,530 --> 02:56:54,350
No, because this is not a court of law, history is not a court of law.

2156
02:56:55,030 --> 02:57:01,950
And so, while this is much to the detriment for attorneys, that's not how history works.

2157
02:57:03,290 --> 02:57:09,230
We make interpretations based on the best available information, what supports information, what supports

2158
02:57:09,230 --> 02:57:17,210
interpretations the most. And when I look at this, I see that there is more information

2159
02:57:17,210 --> 02:57:25,450
that supports of being Bishop's Miss House than not. And while you can take the complete

2160
02:57:25,450 --> 02:57:31,430
history of any property, let us go, Farmington, Riverside, and you can poke holes in that,

2161
02:57:31,950 --> 02:57:38,230
just like you did here. It doesn't make that history invalid. It brings up questions.

2162
02:57:38,230 --> 02:57:40,510
questions that we have to investigate.

2163
02:57:41,030 --> 02:57:45,990
So it's not going to be a 100% factual thing,

2164
02:57:46,130 --> 02:57:48,390
because if that was a standard that we have to live by here,

2165
02:57:48,750 --> 02:57:50,190
then we would not need this commission

2166
02:57:50,190 --> 02:57:52,250
because there would be no landmarks

2167
02:57:52,810 --> 02:57:55,870
because no historic building or no historic property

2168
02:57:55,870 --> 02:57:57,990
could attain that.

2169
02:57:58,990 --> 02:58:03,870
That's just the nature of what we do as professional historians

2170
02:58:03,870 --> 02:58:07,090
and architectures and architectural historians,

2171
02:58:07,090 --> 02:58:09,530
and switch, by the way, is different than an architect.

2172
02:58:11,450 --> 02:58:13,230
So that's what we have to live with.

2173
02:58:13,490 --> 02:58:17,050
Now, I do want to speak something to about the archaeology,

2174
02:58:17,150 --> 02:58:18,710
because that is my particular field of study.

2175
02:58:20,250 --> 02:58:22,450
And that's one of the reasons I'm on the commission.

2176
02:58:23,190 --> 02:58:27,770
When you look at a designation, it's not just one thing.

2177
02:58:28,210 --> 02:58:30,290
It's a culmination of a lot of different things.

2178
02:58:30,990 --> 02:58:33,070
So a decision is not going to be made

2179
02:58:33,990 --> 02:58:36,210
that it may have archaeological resources.

2180
02:58:36,210 --> 02:58:44,350
It may add a little bit to that, it's not going to be made because someone famous lived

2181
02:58:44,350 --> 02:58:44,590
there.

2182
02:58:44,930 --> 02:58:48,890
We will landmark many places because famous people didn't live there.

2183
02:58:48,970 --> 02:58:53,330
We would not have any landmarks of African Americans if that was the standard.

2184
02:58:54,230 --> 02:58:59,170
So, it's a combination of things that makes a place significant.

2185
02:58:59,470 --> 02:59:00,850
Archaeology is just one of them.

2186
02:59:00,850 --> 02:59:07,790
Now, yes, there's a good chance you can find archeological remains in your yard, no matter

2187
02:59:07,790 --> 02:59:10,470
where you live in this community, that could happen.

2188
02:59:11,930 --> 02:59:17,870
But I think I have to explain so people understand why this place might have more potential.

2189
02:59:18,690 --> 02:59:20,710
And that's what we talk about, that it has potential.

2190
02:59:21,050 --> 02:59:22,850
Has anyone gone there and dug and found anything?

2191
02:59:23,470 --> 02:59:23,730
No.

2192
02:59:24,530 --> 02:59:26,630
It's possible there may not be anything there.

2193
02:59:28,070 --> 02:59:35,790
But when we see a property that's been preserved within development, then it has a better

2194
02:59:35,790 --> 02:59:41,210
chance of preserving things because there's been less movement of the dirt on places like

2195
02:59:41,210 --> 02:59:41,390
that.

2196
02:59:41,570 --> 02:59:46,850
When they built a subdivision even in the 1930s, they took bulldozer to it and spread

2197
02:59:46,850 --> 02:59:49,730
around everything and changed that landscape.

2198
02:59:50,690 --> 02:59:55,850
usually if there's an island of a property within those where a historic

2199
02:59:55,850 --> 02:59:59,730
building is that hasn't happened so places like the

2200
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:29,980
House, places like many historic buildings in the middle of newer subdivisions. Those are little islands of preservation for archaeologists because once you move artifacts around, it has very little, very little archaeological significance left, very little integrity left. So that's the way we think about it. So, yes, when you have a property that has been there for 100 years and hasn't really been affected by the development around it.

2201
03:00:29,980 --> 03:00:32,780
that it has a better chance of containing archeological resources.

2202
03:00:33,440 --> 03:00:37,540
So that's what we think about it in that sense, and that's what we mean by that.

2203
03:00:37,960 --> 03:00:41,780
Now, the whole tunnel thing, I'm with you there, every historic house I've ever heard

2204
03:00:41,780 --> 03:00:45,640
of, someone said there's a tunnel there, and then they always think it has something to

2205
03:00:45,640 --> 03:00:46,980
do with the underground road.

2206
03:00:47,620 --> 03:00:48,820
I've never found a tunnel.

2207
03:00:49,020 --> 03:00:53,500
I've found lots of things that people might think are tunnels, but is it the most important

2208
03:00:53,500 --> 03:00:53,680
thing?

2209
03:00:53,840 --> 03:00:53,960
No.

2210
03:00:54,380 --> 03:00:54,700
It's not.

2211
03:00:54,700 --> 03:00:57,620
and a decision about this house based on tunnels

2212
03:00:57,620 --> 03:00:59,640
and its condition on the ground railroad

2213
03:00:59,640 --> 03:01:01,920
is not going to make one difference one way or another.

2214
03:01:03,800 --> 03:01:09,580
So just think about that with regards to some of the things

2215
03:01:09,580 --> 03:01:10,780
that have been brought up.

2216
03:01:12,280 --> 03:01:14,520
Now my main concern is the integrity.

2217
03:01:15,920 --> 03:01:18,160
I think the history is pretty solid.

2218
03:01:18,580 --> 03:01:21,780
Certainly, you know, there are some liberties taken here there.

2219
03:01:23,260 --> 03:01:46,120
But my read of it is that I think it's pretty solid history on this and it's probably, and it is most likely a Mr. Smith out so we say most likely and probably and things like that because we know that if we say definitive things, you know, someone who doesn't understand history is going to call you out on that and say, well, we produced a photograph that says you're wrong.

2220
03:01:47,300 --> 03:01:48,180
That can happen.

2221
03:01:48,960 --> 03:01:50,740
So that's why we say those things.

2222
03:01:51,500 --> 03:01:53,800
It's the nature of our business.

2223
03:01:54,100 --> 03:01:57,620
It's the nature of what we have to deal with because it's constantly evolving and changing.

2224
03:01:59,180 --> 03:02:03,360
But I do have a problem with the integrity or have some issues with the integrity of the house.

2225
03:02:03,520 --> 03:02:08,520
And that is the main concern, I think, for the designation of this property.

2226
03:02:09,000 --> 03:02:14,240
Does it retain enough of its original fabric?

2227
03:02:14,240 --> 03:02:19,360
Can we tell that there's enough of it left there that it warrants preservation?

2228
03:02:20,620 --> 03:02:23,540
I think there are some questions about that.

2229
03:02:24,160 --> 03:02:29,520
For me personally, I think there probably is enough left, but I want to make sure that

2230
03:02:29,520 --> 03:02:34,360
everyone understands that what we're really doing here is not denying somebody their rights

2231
03:02:34,360 --> 03:02:43,420
or their proper rights or telling them they can't build, tear it down, because that's not

2232
03:02:43,420 --> 03:02:49,140
the case. What we have to decide, well, and Bob can probably speak to this, but the

2233
03:02:49,820 --> 03:02:56,700
landmark process has been upheld and is perfectly legal and no one's rights are being taken

2234
03:02:56,700 --> 03:03:06,100
away. And that has been challenged in court before and it's still here. But we have to

2235
03:03:06,100 --> 03:03:13,820
I think about this property as does it deserve an extra level of consideration when a demolition happens?

2236
03:03:14,980 --> 03:03:19,540
Because we limit, I think one of the emails sent a list of all these properties,

2237
03:03:19,960 --> 03:03:24,720
where there used to be historic buildings that got torn down and they built beautiful new homes in their place.

2238
03:03:25,520 --> 03:03:28,140
Why do you think those places have new homes in their place?

2239
03:03:28,280 --> 03:03:32,080
Because there was no one say of the old houses.

2240
03:03:32,880 --> 03:03:40,980
And this is a way that we have to do that, to give more scrutiny to historic buildings

2241
03:03:40,980 --> 03:03:47,880
that deserve a little extra attention towards making the decision about a demolition.

2242
03:03:48,680 --> 03:03:57,280
And that's what we need to decide, as a commission, is does this building have, does it deserve an extra level of review,

2243
03:03:57,280 --> 03:04:03,100
to an extra level of consideration before a demolition is made.

2244
03:04:04,560 --> 03:04:09,960
And so we have to be careful about this process that we have.

2245
03:04:10,040 --> 03:04:12,000
We have to maintain the integrity of that process.

2246
03:04:14,920 --> 03:04:20,940
So let's think about that because just because it's designated doesn't mean it can't be demolished,

2247
03:04:21,460 --> 03:04:23,100
doesn't mean it can't be modified.

2248
03:04:23,880 --> 03:04:30,120
It just means there's a higher level of scrutiny to do that, to make sure that we are protecting

2249
03:04:30,120 --> 03:04:36,740
things that we don't want to lose, so 100 years from now we're going, wow, why isn't that

2250
03:04:36,740 --> 03:04:41,780
building here anymore, which we could have kept that building, like we do now, with lots

2251
03:04:41,780 --> 03:04:43,740
of buildings that are not here anymore.

2252
03:04:44,620 --> 03:04:45,780
And so that's why we have this.

2253
03:04:45,780 --> 03:04:54,660
And I'm sure it depends on your perspective on where you are and how great the people

2254
03:04:54,660 --> 03:04:56,480
who are in this unfortunate situation are.

2255
03:04:57,160 --> 03:05:04,600
I'm sure they're really wonderful people, but we have to keep our focus on this resource

2256
03:05:04,600 --> 03:05:07,540
and what we are here to do as a landmarks commission.

2257
03:05:08,480 --> 03:05:15,400
If for some reason or for whatever reason it is designated landmark, you can still apply

2258
03:05:15,400 --> 03:05:15,920
for a demo.

2259
03:05:16,200 --> 03:05:17,600
You can go through economic hardship.

2260
03:05:17,800 --> 03:05:26,320
You can make your case for that was made today about the financials of it all and about

2261
03:05:26,320 --> 03:05:28,460
what can and can be done with the property.

2262
03:05:31,970 --> 03:05:32,350
Thank you.

2263
03:05:32,750 --> 03:05:34,570
Any other comments from other commissioners?

2264
03:05:36,090 --> 03:05:44,610
I guess I would like to make this comment, especially at 1215, candidly I think enough questions

2265
03:05:44,610 --> 03:05:52,770
have been raised about the historical significance of the house and its connections, I just need

2266
03:05:52,770 --> 03:05:56,870
to understand that timeline personally and what the connections are.

2267
03:05:56,870 --> 03:06:06,470
and then I'd like for the staff to follow up maybe to see if there's some other

2268
03:06:06,470 --> 03:06:12,510
evidence that we can gather, aerial photos, whatever. But I'm not comfortable

2269
03:06:12,510 --> 03:06:19,890
myself making a decision today and as you know we can table this and take it up

2270
03:06:19,890 --> 03:06:25,090
at our next meeting in September. But I would like to review, I mean we've got a

2271
03:06:25,090 --> 03:06:30,490
a lot of information from the homeowners and while he spoke to most of this I'd like

2272
03:06:30,490 --> 03:06:32,050
to go through it more carefully.

2273
03:06:33,010 --> 03:06:38,250
We've got more, we had other evidence from the petitioners that I would like to receive

2274
03:06:38,250 --> 03:06:46,190
and I'm, excuse me, review and this is an important question and there's, I don't feel comfortable

2275
03:06:46,190 --> 03:06:50,990
but I've got a fair enough command of all that right now to make a decision today.

2276
03:06:51,510 --> 03:07:04,830
So I would prefer that we table this and take the decision up at our next meeting, but I may be the only person that feels that way, but I would welcome any other comments that people might have on that.

2277
03:07:04,990 --> 03:07:07,330
I would move that we table it until the September meeting.

2278
03:07:08,090 --> 03:07:08,430
I agree.

2279
03:07:09,070 --> 03:07:09,470
Second.

2280
03:07:11,570 --> 03:07:14,090
So there is a, I'm sorry, your question.

2281
03:07:18,760 --> 03:07:19,920
Well, it's our next schedule meeting.

2282
03:07:26,600 --> 03:07:27,800
I don't know, I can look at that.

2283
03:07:28,080 --> 03:07:29,840
But I wasn't prepared to address that.

2284
03:07:30,660 --> 03:07:32,160
So I'll amend my motion to say.

2285
03:07:32,580 --> 03:07:38,060
I move that we table the issue until we successfully have a quorum

2286
03:07:38,060 --> 03:07:40,220
or at our September meeting.

2287
03:07:40,600 --> 03:07:42,020
Or at our next meeting as well.

2288
03:07:43,100 --> 03:07:46,280
Or I mean, we can discuss the email and see if we can get a quorum on a date.

2289
03:07:46,280 --> 03:07:54,420
before that. Okay. Yeah. Well, and it would also seem to be a good idea for us perhaps

2290
03:07:54,420 --> 03:08:01,660
to meet on site to do a little bit further investigation. Is that an issue? You don't

2291
03:08:01,660 --> 03:08:05,780
mean a landmarks commission meeting but just a separate meeting. A separate meeting on site.

2292
03:08:06,640 --> 03:08:10,880
Is that an issue Cynthia? I think it's the owners who would have to consent to that too.

2293
03:08:10,880 --> 03:08:15,080
And also for the record, obviously we have the great recording equipment here.

2294
03:08:16,820 --> 03:08:21,940
So I don't know, I mean, it's maybe our county attorney could advise us on that question.

2295
03:08:22,080 --> 03:08:28,180
You do have the open meetings requirements, so if you have a certain percentage, you would have to meet the open meetings.

2296
03:08:28,320 --> 03:08:30,900
And we would have to notice that meeting on site.

2297
03:08:31,560 --> 03:08:39,860
I think people could, again, it's private property, so I think we'd have to work that out if the owners were even willing to consent.

2298
03:08:43,310 --> 03:08:48,470
I would just like to suggest that we may want to table it to the next regular meeting

2299
03:08:48,470 --> 03:08:51,870
simply because then we don't have to re-notice everything.

2300
03:08:52,310 --> 03:08:57,950
But then if the commission decided to hold a meeting sooner, then we'll go ahead and notice anyway.

2301
03:08:58,350 --> 03:09:00,070
Okay, so generally it works better.

2302
03:09:00,290 --> 03:09:05,450
Right. If we just table without a date, then we have to start over in term noticing.

2303
03:09:05,450 --> 03:09:13,450
Okay, so we would, we would, we would table it to the next schedule meeting, but if we can find a time to meet before that, we can always do that at your point.

2304
03:09:15,860 --> 03:09:25,600
Okay. Any other comments? I think there is a motion on the table. Commissioner Harbin, would you restate it just because we talked about a couple of different ways?

2305
03:09:25,600 --> 03:09:43,160
So I move to table this issue until either we establish that a quorum can be made at a meeting time before a September meeting or then by default until our September meeting September 15th, 9 o'clock in this building.

2306
03:09:43,160 --> 03:09:46,280
Okay. Thank you. And there is a second.

2307
03:09:47,700 --> 03:09:52,960
That's so second. Mr. Chairman, do you want to consider closing the record at this point?

2308
03:09:53,300 --> 03:09:55,660
Or do you want to leave it open, pending the...

2309
03:09:55,660 --> 03:09:57,900
I think we might have to leave it open. That's a good point.

2310
03:09:58,880 --> 03:10:02,760
John, because I think one of the things we want to do is get some additional information,

2311
03:10:02,760 --> 03:10:05,300
which means we need to receive that information.

2312
03:10:06,200 --> 03:10:07,420
And we may have additional questions.

2313
03:10:07,420 --> 03:10:21,880
Yes, are the commissioners allowed to meet with staff between now and the subsequent meeting, whether it's a special meeting or a regular schedule meeting to work through to walk through.

2314
03:10:22,460 --> 03:10:29,980
I mean, there's a lot of information that I'd like to just ask some questions of staff.

2315
03:10:35,520 --> 03:10:37,360
Okay, thank you.

2316
03:10:37,640 --> 03:10:40,120
Any other comments or questions on the motion?

2317
03:10:41,080 --> 03:10:44,040
Just about the possibility of a site visit.

2318
03:10:44,440 --> 03:10:46,880
We could do what we did with colonial gardens,

2319
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:49,880
because we were able to make a visit

2320
03:10:49,880 --> 03:10:51,860
and expect the building.

2321
03:10:52,400 --> 03:10:54,060
I think we just went at different times

2322
03:10:56,020 --> 03:10:59,880
and showed up not a particular meeting time

2323
03:11:02,380 --> 03:11:13,180
to take a look at the building, I don't, that can be arranged and of course that would be completely up to the property owner whether they want to do that or not, so, but just that possibility might be there, right?

2324
03:11:14,180 --> 03:11:20,660
Well, we don't have to decide that question now, but if they're welling and all that that can be coordinated later, right?

2325
03:11:21,620 --> 03:11:26,100
Thank you. All right, we'll call the question all in favor of the motion, please say aye.

2326
03:11:26,100 --> 03:11:26,180
All right.

2327
03:11:26,660 --> 03:11:27,200
All right.

2328
03:11:27,420 --> 03:11:27,760
Okay.

2329
03:11:28,200 --> 03:11:28,740
All opposed.

2330
03:11:29,640 --> 03:11:30,080
None.

2331
03:11:30,500 --> 03:11:30,720
Okay.

2332
03:11:30,820 --> 03:11:31,680
The motion carries.

2333
03:11:33,220 --> 03:11:37,820
And Bob, I know that we had another item but we'll carry that to the next meeting if

2334
03:11:37,820 --> 03:11:38,260
That's okay.

2335
03:11:38,820 --> 03:11:39,420
Or the next.

2336
03:11:39,540 --> 03:11:39,760
Okay.

2337
03:11:39,760 --> 03:11:40,160
All right.

2338
03:11:40,360 --> 03:11:42,580
Although I am anxious to see that presentation.

2339
03:11:43,280 --> 03:11:45,060
Any other business before the commission?

2340
03:11:45,500 --> 03:11:46,580
Is there a motion to adjourn?

2341
03:11:46,760 --> 03:11:46,940
No.

2342
03:11:47,320 --> 03:11:47,760
Okay.

2343
03:11:48,100 --> 03:11:48,520
Second.

2344
03:11:49,000 --> 03:11:50,140
All in favor, please say aye.

2345
03:11:50,480 --> 03:11:50,700
Aye.

2346
03:11:51,000 --> 03:11:51,300
Thank you.

2347
03:11:51,360 --> 03:11:53,600
And thanks to everybody who participated today.

2348
03:11:53,600 --> 03:11:53,660
Okay.