[0:01] Good evening and welcome to the May 26th
meeting of the Madison, Indiana Historic
[0:04] District Review Board. My name is Chris
Cody and let the record show that board
[0:08] members Bill Jewell, Jared Anderson, and
Happy Smith are present along with city
[0:13] staff Brenna Hailey and we have a new
member of city staff who I believe is
[0:17] going to introduce himself.
[0:23] » Good evening. My name is Chris Layton.
I'm the new building and mint inspector
[0:27] and happy to be here. I'll help out any
way
[0:31] Thank you.
>> Thank you very much, Mr. Layton.
[0:35] We will conduct this meeting by having
applicants come forward to the podium.
[0:38] City staff will then review their
application as it was submitted to the
[0:42] city. Then applicants will have the
opportunity to address the board.
[0:45] Following the applicant's presentation,
board members may ask the applicant
[0:49] questions, then the applicant will be
dismissed.
[0:52] The public will then have the
opportunity to comment on the
[0:54] application, following which the board
will deliberate and vote.
[0:58] Please remember that all applications
are evaluated solely for their
[1:01] compliance with the Madison Historic
District Design Guidelines and restrict
[1:05] your comments to relevant matters.
Thank you very much, everyone, for being
[1:08] here this evening. Brenna, please begin
with the first application.
[1:14] » So, our first application on the agenda
is 1229
[1:18] West Main Street and that one remains on
the table. So, our next one
[1:24] will be City of Madison project,
a request to build an amphitheater in
[1:30] Bicentennial Park
at 101 East Second Street.
[1:34] » Good evening,
board. My name is Tony Steinheart,
[1:37] deputy mayor and director of economic
and redevelopment. Tonight we're here
[1:41] and happy to present to you
a project that was in the Madison
[1:45] Destination Plan
and has received great support from our
[1:51] region through our regional development
commission Um, and uh,
[1:57] has been receiving uh, good comments
from the committee that was put together
[2:01] uh, to review both the uh,
design as well as the needs for the
[2:06] professional uh, tours.
So, the goal of this project was to
[2:10] develop a amphitheater uh, for 2026
standards and expectations for both
[2:16] patrons and performers and to enhance
the accessibility and safety uh, of the
[2:21] park for all.
Um, we wanted to develop
[2:28] » Let the record show that uh, board
member Jed Skillman has now joined us.
[2:33] » We um,
we wanted to develop uh,
[2:37] a a theater that was flexible
uh, for both local as well as the
[2:42] national acts
and we wanted to provide a facility that
[2:45] was as transparent as possible
um, for the neighborhood and the
[2:50] citizens of Madison on the other 340
days, pick a number, three whatever
[2:55] number that is, uh, when it's not in
use. This this is intended to be a park
[2:59] that it's engaging uh, throughout the
entire year. We think the design will
[3:03] open up new opportunities for uses in
the park um,
[3:07] as well as give amenities to again those
patrons and performers that
[3:12] expect in 2026 for for uh, acts. So, at
this time I'd like to introduce
[3:18] um,
uh, Jeff De Smith to talk through uh,
[3:22] our design work from Access Studio Axis
and answer any questions you have on
[3:39] » Good evening.
[3:43] Make sure this comes up here.
[4:16] » Now it's just not
going over.
[4:19] Like that.
>> It's the connected piece.
[4:22] Let's see.
[4:32] » Yeah, will the gray one reach?
[4:37] Oh, we're on wheels. There we go.
Perfect.
[4:46] Yeah.
This is where it should go.
[4:52] Okay, now it's just pushed in.
Okay, let's see.
[4:57] Yep.
[5:02] There we go. Perfect.
All right.
[5:05] Thanks. Uh my name's Jeff De Smith uh
with Studio Axis in in Indianapolis. I'm
[5:10] happy to be here to kind of walk you
guys through um where we're at from a
[5:13] current design standpoint um on both the
uh stage frame and the um accessory
[5:19] building and then more than happy to to
get your uh
[5:22] feedback and comments.
Um so just quickly to kind of walk you
[5:25] through from an orientation standpoint
um the updated site. So, one of the
[5:30] things that we really looked at
um in kind of reimagining what this
[5:35] would be is how can we provide um some
additional
[5:39] features for the park, you know,
upgraded restrooms,
[5:44] um you you upgraded uh electric and
audio visual
[5:48] infrastructure for the actual stage
to really enhance what the city can do
[5:54] from a like, you know, weekly and
monthly use standpoint without the need
[5:58] to kind of rent and bring in a bunch of
extra equipment. So,
[6:01] part of that
research was really looking at how do we
[6:05] center the stage building,
get it closer to where a future building
[6:10] might want to go.
And in looking through all of those
[6:14] different aspects,
it ended up to where kind of centering
[6:19] the kind of stage and the main viewing
area kind of between Central and and and
[6:26] and West seemed to be the the right move
so that we could keep a building that
[6:31] was still close enough to be able to
provide that infrastructure,
[6:34] but a long West Street out of the kind
of visual line of sight
[6:40] that you would see from First Street or
even from Vaughn Drive if you're looking
[6:43] back back up.
Um,
[6:46] so in this site plan here, you'll see
that there's a revised kind of parking
[6:51] layout up here at the north end.
One of the things that this does is kind
[6:54] of reestablish that neighborhood edge.
This is one of this is the only block
[7:00] along First where the sidewalk is not
continuous from corner to corner.
[7:05] Parking here right now is front end
directly from the street. So, that was
[7:09] one of the the kind of items that we
looked at. The other thing that this
[7:13] will do is it will allow us to get
parking kind of inside what we would
[7:16] consider a a secure kind of ticketed
zone for larger events, but also give
[7:21] the ability to to park
food trucks and those sorts of things
[7:25] off of the street so they have less
impact from a pedestrian standpoint for
[7:31] for other events.
As part of this, we would then
[7:34] reestablish kind of the the brick
kind of pilaster system that is
[7:39] currently around the park.
And the current concept essentially
[7:42] reuses about 75% of the existing
pilasters that are there in their exact
[7:48] locations. And then where we have to
make adjustments from a sidewalk
[7:51] standpoint or a parking standpoint, we
would essentially rebuild and kind of
[7:55] duplicate those to kind of fill that in
to connect it all the way around the
[7:59] entirety of the park.
Um
[8:02] as we work our way down from north to
south, you'll you'll see some kind of
[8:07] open lawn areas.
The main accessory building here on the
[8:11] side.
This has a couple of things. It has area
[8:15] for concessions, an area for
storage and janitorial,
[8:19] a much larger restroom block. There's
right now eight fixtures per side in the
[8:23] main block and that is before you count
in a family restroom and then two
[8:28] additional
handicap accessible restrooms. As well
[8:32] as storage space
for
[8:35] things that the city might own.
Um
[8:39] And then also a large electrical and AV
room component to kind of support
[8:44] everything that's that's happening on
there.
[8:47] And then as you work your way toward the
south, then you have the actual stage
[8:50] itself.
Actually has a similar from a concrete
[8:53] pad standpoint a similar footprint to
what's actually down there now.
[8:57] Just reorientated. Um
to kind of be on this central axis.
[9:04] So as I go to the stage frame, so this
would be the the front or the north
[9:08] elevation.
One of the things that we kept hearing
[9:12] when we were looking at all the comments
kind of discussing with all the groups
[9:15] is how do we provide something down here
that meets and checks these boxes from a
[9:20] performance standpoint, but also doesn't
block the view of the river, right?
[9:23] Because as
Tony mentioned and is what has been on
[9:26] the forefront of our thought the entire
time is
[9:29] you know, what is this going to be the
other 340 days of the year that it's not
[9:33] a performance event, right?
So what this does is accomplish a
[9:37] few things. So, we've raised the actual
stage elevation itself is at 5 ft
[9:43] to get that up so that groups don't have
to bring in a separate stage.
[9:46] It provides easy load-in and load-out
from an access standpoint. And then
[9:50] we've paired that with what we're kind
of calling a stage frame or a proscenium
[9:55] that allows
groups to hang speakers. There'll be
[9:59] permanent speakers and lighting that the
city can use.
[10:03] Or that other smaller events,
whether it's a
[10:07] a church or a graduation or
movie night in the park,
[10:11] everything will be there to for them to
just come in and use those those those
[10:15] those items.
From a material standpoint, we've really
[10:19] tried to keep it simple
and try to kind of mimic and respect
[10:24] what's around there. So, really there's
three main materials on here. It's
[10:28] brick,
some limestone accents, and then steel.
[10:32] I did bring material samples for for
what we're currently thinking.
[10:37] So, essentially two different types of
brick. There's both a kind of red, kind
[10:42] of very
very
[10:46] standard kind of terracotta color,
as well as more of an almond, which is
[10:51] what we're using as kind of the what you
would consider the water table or the
[10:55] lower section.
You'll see in the renderings there's
[10:59] kind of a two-tone look. And one of the
things that we're considering right now
[11:04] is that instead of doing an alternate
color of brick is using a secondary
[11:08] texture
as the as the kind of accent piece for
[11:12] some of those areas.
You'll also see that the specific size.
[11:16] So, from a constructability standpoint,
one of the things that we are trying to
[11:20] really think about is cost. And what
this is is a full
[11:25] it's a clay product, so an actual brick
product, but it's a structural brick Um,
[11:30] that we don't have to do a CMU wall with
a brick veneer.
[11:36] Um, so it it eliminates the need to have
to do a cavity wall system, which saves
[11:41] cost. So, essentially all of these walls
around the exterior would be the
[11:44] structural walls for that. Um, and then
we would have a a a steel kind of gable
[11:49] frame at the top. This one is a little
bit elongated, so it feels more like
[11:54] from a distance, it feels more like a
Norman from a uh from a length
[11:57] standpoint. So, it's 4 by either, you
know, 6, 8, 10, 12 deep depending on the
[12:02] structural needs, and then 16 in long.
Um, so along this kind of north stage
[12:09] view, you'll see that we have brick. Um,
there are some some some accents here,
[12:13] as well as kind of a a limestone colored
uh
[12:17] what I like to call like a a a tiered
step seating.
[12:21] Um,
and then the steel stage frame that
[12:25] comes up and around the um top.
The detailing for the stage frame,
[12:30] um and the detailing for the steel
that's on the building, um is really the
[12:34] the effort will be there to really try
to use to make it look more like, you
[12:37] know, actual like rivets, gusset plates,
those type of things, not just simple
[12:41] welds,
um
[12:43] to really kind of tie into some of the
more uh kind of older and historic steel
[12:47] kind of uh frame structures and crane
structures and
[12:50] uh
bridges that are in Madison.
[12:56] This is a view from the from the side,
so you'll see here um as well as the
[13:01] main stage frame, there's a secondary
piece here
[13:04] um that kind of protrudes from the from
the back from a structural standpoint.
[13:08] Um, it provides some additional anchor
points.
[13:11] And then also, there is a canopy out of
the front.
[13:14] Um, obviously a canopy of this height is
not necessarily intended to provide
[13:18] rain, you know, cover, but what this
does is it gets additional rigging
[13:21] points for the um the uh
performers um and the and those acts, as
[13:27] well as permanent lighting and speaker
hang locations
[13:31] that are that will be out there 365 days
a year for the city's use.
[13:39] Next, I'll go to the building.
So, we have both a north and the east
[13:44] view here. So, this would be
looking from the north um
[13:49] main things that you'll see here again,
there's a the terracotta one here is the
[13:54] one that you see in the center.
And that that alternate kind of striped
[13:58] or raked texture, as well as the
lighter color, which is really more
[14:03] focused as kind of at that traditional
limestone or cobblestone base.
[14:07] Um
And then limestone accents for the
[14:11] window sills,
as well as aluminum storefront and then
[14:14] a standing seam metal roof.
You'll see that the the site does step
[14:19] quite a bit. One of the interesting
things here is we essentially have three
[14:21] different grade levels. So,
as the building
[14:25] kind of steps down the the the hill,
you'll have storage and concessions up
[14:29] here on the north end. The entrance to
the restroom lock is here at the at the
[14:35] middle.
And then as you get down to the bottom
[14:37] side, storage and the two additional
restrooms down here at the lower plaza
[14:42] level.
Um, right now we're again just using
[14:45] brick and then kind of these steel
accents that extend out both a kind of
[14:50] 10-ft
completely covered canopy and then that
[14:54] steel structure is then extrapolated out
to form kind of a shade structure
[14:58] on on both the north and south ends.
[15:04] Obviously, the west view looks very very
very similar.
[15:08] You can see against the south view.
Essentially, this is just kind of a
[15:12] tucked in vestibule for both storage
doors and the two
[15:15] unisex restroom doors. Um, and then
providing kind of these kind of stripped
[15:19] more transom windows
um both
[15:23] uh along both the long elevation sides
to get natural light into
[15:27] uh the restroom blocks.
[15:33] Have a couple views here from uh
exterior standpoint. You can see this is
[15:37] that south end as you're kind of coming
from the stage walking walking up.
[15:41] Um
I again, a lot of the the building
[15:44] placement, the different um levels for
the plazas and those sorts of things is
[15:48] really all centered around
accessibility, right? How can we make
[15:52] sure that um the entirety of this park
is is is accessible,
[15:56] um which it isn't currently today.
[16:03] This is more from the uh kind of top
plaza area. You can kind of see the the
[16:07] the length of the building as it goes
down the side, and then the actual stage
[16:10] frame here off to the right.
[16:16] And then we have a view of uh
you know, a
[16:19] sample view of just a small uh
performance event. Um and again, one of
[16:24] them where all of the infrastructure
that's that's up here would be owned by
[16:28] the city or a permanent piece, um and it
wouldn't have to be brought in as
[16:33] compared to something like a Unbroken
Circle or a Rooster Tail where they
[16:37] would have a much
uh kind of larger package from a you
[16:41] know, the current things that they rent
now. They would bring out and be able to
[16:44] place on that stage and have that that
stage platform ready for them.
[16:50] So, I'm more than happy to take any
questions that you have.
[16:56] » Thank you. Are there any questions for
the applicant from the board?
[17:02] » Out of your curiosity here, when you on
the stage with the the
[17:08] uh
structure for lighting,
[17:10] » Yes.
>> you know, in you got your cursor right
[17:14] up at I'm talking about. From front to
back of that structure, how how wide is
[17:19] that?
>> The actual footprint of the physical
[17:22] stage itself?
>> No, the the the lighting grid.
[17:26] » Oh, here at the top. Yeah, so from the
actual stage frame piece itself, it
[17:30] extends out about 15 ft. If you were
looking at it from kind of this side,
[17:35] from the edge here out to this kind of
outer lip is about 15 ft.
[17:38] » So, it's 15 ft from the front of the the
awning that hangs out.
[17:42] What about to the back of that uh
to right there. What is that?
[17:48] » roughly the same. So, that that kind of
total depth from here to here is roughly
[17:51] 30 30 30 ft.
>> Okay.
[17:57] And then the
the height is 50 ft to the top.
[18:01] » Yeah, so 50 ft to the top. So, if we
were looking at it, obviously the zero
[18:05] elevation right at the actual lower
plaza, 5 ft to the top of the stage. The
[18:10] rigging height or kind of the the lowest
portion of this proscenium arch would be
[18:15] 40 ft from grade or 35 ft from the
actual stage proper. And then the the
[18:19] top of the structure is roughly 50 ft.
>> Okay.
[18:23] Uh did you consult with any stage
lighting people when you were
[18:27] » yes, so we have um Theater Projects,
which is a um
[18:31] a a stage
>> Okay.
[18:33] » consultant. And we're working with with
them on all of the details for stage
[18:38] lighting, sound, all the electrical and
AV requirements, all of that.
[18:43] » Did anybody mention that you may want
light out in front of the stage? I mean,
[18:48] off to the side, but
>> Yeah, so there there are a couple of
[18:50] different ways that that those things
are being considered, whether it's um
[18:54] having, you know, lighting very far out
of the very edge of that canopy itself.
[18:59] Um
>> No, I'm talking about like
[19:02] from the front of the stage
50 ft out, 60 ft out.
[19:07] » Or or the op- the opportunity for them
to either bring in either you know,
[19:10] temporary or you know, like uh pole
mounted additional lighting from a front
[19:16] artist standpoint.
>> Right.
[19:17] So, that's that's all been planned for.
>> Correct. Yeah, that's Yeah, we're we're
[19:20] currently within
the
[19:23] design stages to work through all of
those details.
[19:25] » Got you.
[19:29] Thank you, Jed. Are there any other
questions from the board?
[19:32] » Uh the
>> Go ahead.
[19:34] » The um the current bathroom building is
going to go away and this new bathroom
[19:38] building is coming in in its place.
>> That's correct. Yes.
[19:40] » And uh what How do they compare in size,
the old bathroom building versus the new
[19:44] bathroom building?
>> Yeah, so I believe, correct if I'm
[19:47] wrong, the existing restroom building
has four restrooms per side.
[19:51] Yeah, so we're essentially more than
doubling the existing capacity. This has
[19:55] eight per side for the main blocks and
then there's a family restroom and then
[19:59] two additional
um two additional unisex restrooms that
[20:02] are on the uh south plaza.
>> So, at least twice the size of the old
[20:06] building, maybe more?
>> I would say from a footprint standpoint,
[20:10] yes.
Um one of the key considerations in
[20:13] working through all of this is providing
the permanent audio visual and
[20:17] electrical components that are out of
the floodway. So, the current building,
[20:22] where it sits, it sits about halfway
within the floodway and the other half
[20:26] is is within the flood plain. Um
and so, one of the main considerations
[20:30] here is that we have to get the building
far enough to the north that we can
[20:33] provide all of this permanent electrical
and audio visual equipment um without
[20:39] the risk of it being flooded.
[20:45] Yeah, and I I think, you know, same
thing for the stage, right? So, you
[20:48] know, all of the
We've received all the kind of the the
[20:51] artist riders, which are the the the
technical requirements that all they
[20:55] have from both Unbroken Circle and from
Rooster Tail, and then also our um
[21:00] our theater consultant has been has you
know, has hundreds of of of riders that
[21:05] they can go back and and kind of view
and reference on um to really make sure
[21:09] that the electrical requirements, the
audio-visual requirements,
[21:13] all of that stuff is is taken care of so
that there's there's not anything
[21:16] missing when kind of the the first act
shows up.
[21:24] » Thank you. Are there any additional
questions from the board?
[21:28] Uh thank you very much.
Yeah, you may be seated. Do we have any
[21:32] comments from the public?
[21:36] » You want me to unplug and take this off
or you want me to leave it
[21:38] » let's see. It sounds like we don't have
any comments from the public, so
[21:42] uh
you can have a seat or stand there if
[21:44] you'd like. It's now time for the board
to deliberate.
[21:48] Um
I for one
[21:51] am incredibly grateful to the city for
pursuing this project and for bringing
[21:56] this
um excellent upgrade to us. It is not an
[22:01] easy thing to develop projects of this
scale and given our city's status as
[22:07] Indiana's music city, I think that um
upgrades to this park and the building
[22:12] of this amphitheater are very welcome
and appropriate. Um
[22:17] I don't want to monopolize the
conversation. Do any other board members
[22:20] want to chime in? Um you know, I for one
think that this is a very
[22:24] well-thought-out, extensively studied
proposal.
[22:29] » I really like how it's see-through. We
can see the river through this stage and
[22:35] I think that's a real important thing.
That river is a big thing to our
[22:38] community and to block it off, I think
would be a a mistake. I think you did a
[22:43] great job on design.
[22:50] » Any other comments from the board? Does
anyone have any concerns about it? I
[22:53] mean, the only concern that I have right
now is that we have non-ADA accessible
[22:58] facilities and uh things are getting
flooded, so I think this is actually
[23:02] fixing concerns that I have about what's
going on down there.
[23:10] Well, if there's no further discussion
to be had, let's uh let's have a roll
[23:13] call vote for this one, Brenna.
I Well, first I need a motion.
[23:19] » I move that we
grant a COA to the city of Madison based
[23:25] on the preceding uh
discussions.
[23:29] » Do we have a second?
>> I'll second it.
[23:33] » Okay, Chris Cody.
>> Approve.
[23:35] » Abby Smith.
>> Approve.
[23:36] » Phil Jewel.
>> Approve.
[23:38] » Jared Anderson.
>> Approve.
[23:40] » Jed Skillman.
>> Approve.
[23:43] » Thank you very much.
>> While I've got you real quick, um we
[23:47] need to approve the minutes from the
last meeting.
[23:50] » Oh. We should have handled that up
front. Okay.
[23:54] » So
>> So, do I have a motion to Has everyone
[23:57] reviewed the minutes from the last
meeting and Does anyone have a motion
[24:01] that they can put on the table to
approve them?
[24:03] » I have a motion to approve the minutes
of last month's meeting.
[24:05] » I second that.
>> All right, all those in favor? I.
[24:08] » I.
>> Any opposed? None.
[24:12] Okay, what's the next application,
Brenna?
[24:14] » Next up is 820 Walnut Street. Um
the main structure here is a
[24:19] contributing structure, a federal style
built in 1840, and this request is to
[24:25] place a 10 by 20 utility shed at the
rear of the property.
[24:31] » Thank you very much.
[25:27] » Okay. Um Brenda, was a site plan
submitted with the application to show
[25:30] where the shed will go on the property?
>> This is all that we have. Um
[25:35] we do not have one that has changed with
the
[25:39] the not 14 ft.
[25:50] So, that has been extended down.
>> So, we don't have a drawing that
[25:54] reflects an accurate location of this.
>> We do not.
[26:01] » That's going to be That's a That's
challenging. Um
[26:06] So, can you indicate on this image
where, roughly in relation to the front
[26:10] building, 14 ft off, as you're
describing it, is, and where the shed
[26:15] will be placed?
[26:21] Mhm.
[26:29] So, can you I just want to have
something indicated on the record that
[26:32] we saw where on this image
the building's going to be placed?
[26:42] Okay, right where that
black blob is.
[26:47] » And that's what you said, 14 ft back
from the alley?
[26:50] » 14 ft
off the sidewalk.
[26:53] » Okay.
>> And then
[27:08] So, you're centering it on your property
in the back. Yeah.
[27:14] All right.
>> Thank you for that description. That
[27:17] that helps given that we we don't have a
site plan. On the sheet of shed options
[27:22] that you showed, is there one in
particular that you picked out from a a
[27:25] design standpoint? Are there just three
different ones?
[27:29] That one? Okay.
>> On the left.
[27:31] » Okay.
I just
[27:32] » What siding and uh roofing are you going
to put on have them put on this?
[28:18] » Thank you. Are there any more questions
for the applicant from the board?
[28:24] Thank you. Is there any public comment?
[28:29] All right. Hearing none, let's begin
board deliberation.
[28:32] Um
the application's obviously deficient in
[28:35] terms of what was submitted. It would be
really helpful to have a site plan so we
[28:38] don't have to go through the exercise
that we just did, but I do feel as
[28:42] though the applicant has now accurately
described on the record where the
[28:45] building will be located um and
identified exactly which one he wants to
[28:50] build, and I don't have a problem either
with the siding or the design.
[28:56] » I like that the applicant talked to the
neighbor and has taken the traffic
[28:59] pattern and the truck drivers into
consideration.
[29:03] » I agree with both of you.
>> We're usually very
[29:09] concerned about having site plans, but
we all looked at the property, and this
[29:13] being a prefabricated shed,
if there's a problem, you can pick it up
[29:19] and move it a couple feet, right?
There's no reason you can't do that. So,
[29:24] I'm okay with it.
>> Does anyone have any concerns about this
[29:27] application?
>> I do.
[29:30] Um
I'm concerned about your roofing and
[29:32] about the siding that's on it. Um
the roofing looks like it is uh probably
[29:37] drawn as barn siding, basically, and
you'd have T1-11 siding on the building,
[29:42] at least that's how it's drawn. Um is
there any chance that you could convince
[29:46] these folks to put a standing seam roof
on like we we do on other uh properties,
[29:51] and possibly a lap siding?
Any chance of that?
[29:57] Yeah, if you'd like to come up, please.
>> I can check that.
[30:06] » Right, but it's a barn siding roof, and
[30:11] you don't see a barn siding necessarily
as being all that appropriate.
[30:19] » Okay, so uh
what are you suggesting?
[30:23] » Um a standing seam roof, and they're
they're readily available. A lot of them
[30:27] are going into town now,
and uh say
[30:32] HP or LP uh smart siding, something like
that, a lap siding that would have more
[30:37] of the feel of the historic area.
>> I I can look into it.
[30:44] » Mhm.
>> Yeah, Bill, that's a really good catch
[30:47] on the roof materials. I think that that
would be an an easy change
[30:51] that would make a big difference.
>> Should
[30:54] this be conditional on that?
>> Well, that's that's for the board to
[30:58] discuss.
[31:03] Yeah, I I that I think the question is
whether they're those are both excellent
[31:07] suggestions, Bill, and and
very correct points.
[31:12] Um I guess the question is whether
this could be a conditional approval or
[31:16] an approval with them as mere
suggestions.
[31:19] How does the rest of the board feel?
[31:23] » I I would be concerned solely because
these are
[31:28] pre-constructed buildings, so I'm not
sure
[31:32] I'm not sure these people are going to
go out of their way to put a standing
[31:35] seam
Um
[31:39] I
Yeah.
[31:41] » I don't know why they would have a
problem with the roof. You know, they're
[31:44] going to put metal on one way or
another, standing seam, barn roof, all
[31:47] goes on the same way. I could uh deal
with it if we did have a standing seam
[31:52] roof, and I could probably live with a
T1-11 pattern siding because it is a a
[31:58] shed and then in the back.
Um
[32:01] » That seems like a good compromise, and I
do think that the roof is going to be
[32:05] more significant in terms of the
material affecting the overall
[32:08] appearance.
[32:12] Would anyone be willing to make a motion
to that effect?
[32:19] » I didn't bring my cheat sheet.
>> So, based on the the the preceding
[32:23] discussion,
we issue a COA for the property
[32:30] at What is it?
>> 820 Walnut.
[32:35] » 820 Walnut,
uh
[32:38] conditional
on a standing seam roof.
[32:41] And what kind of siding did you say?
>> Uh stock T1-11.
[32:45] » Stock T1-11 siding.
Do I hear a second?
[32:50] » I second.
[32:54] » Let's do a roll call vote for this one
since it's a conditional approval.
[32:58] » Sorry, who seconded?
>> I did.
[33:00] » Okay.
Okay. Uh Chris Cody.
[33:03] » Approved.
>> Kathy Smith.
[33:05] » Approved.
>> Bill Jewel.
[33:07] » Approved.
>> Jared Anderson.
[33:10] » Approved.
>> Jed Skogen.
[33:12] » Approved.
>> Thank you very much.
[33:17] All right.
Rana.
[33:20] » Next up is 526 Jefferson Street. This is
a contributing structure built in 1835.
[33:26] It is part of a series of five uh row
houses.
[33:31] Um this is zone historic district
residential and this request is to build
[33:34] a 21 and 1/2 foot by 36 and 1/2 foot
garage.
[33:41] » Thank you.
>> Good afternoon.
[33:44] » Oh, wait. Where are we?
[33:48] » I thought I believe the measurements
you've been recently submitted a
[33:51] different measurement of 20 and 1/2 feet
by 32 feet.
[33:56] » Uh possibly Was that submitted today?
>> Uh not if it was submitted today.
[34:01] I'm sorry. I don't know exactly what day
it was submitted.
[34:06] Yes, I'm sorry. It wasn't submitted
today.
[34:10] I do have the the plans here, updated
plans if that helps.
[34:14] I thought you already submitted the
updated plans, too. I'm sorry.
[34:18] » It Yeah, we need to see what's being
proposed for approval. But if you're
[34:23] saying 32 by 20 and 1/2, that's the
dimensions of what's on the screen right
[34:28] now. So maybe
[34:37] » All right.
>> Sorry, that's correct.
[34:39] » Okay.
Well,
[34:42] please tell us about your proposal.
>> Uh we'd like to build a new garage in
[34:47] the back of 526.
Leaving there's a some room between
[34:53] the building, I'm sorry.
And we'll leave between the existing
[34:55] structure with the back porch, it'll
leave 20 ft 9 in.
[35:00] And then from the property line, which
is the alley behind, it will leave 25
[35:03] ft.
Off the back of the alley.
[35:07] We're proposing to do a
Sorry, the
[35:12] the windows, there's one window beside
the man door that would be a aluminum
[35:16] clad wood window.
Um there also the entry door would be
[35:20] fiberglass.
The siding would be LP SmartSide.
[35:24] Um and
[35:31] the roof would be a hidden seam within
our standing seam with hidden fasteners.
[35:37] Um
and then the garage door would be a
[35:39] carriage style garage door.
When I say style, it'll be a carriage
[35:43] look.
It'll be an actual roll-up door, but
[35:45] it'll have the hinges on it and handles
on it to make it look like it's a
[35:47] carriage style door.
[35:54] » Are there any questions from the board
for the applicant?
[35:58] Bennet, can you pull back the the
drawing back up? I just want I was
[36:00] wondering about the the total height. I
can't read that number there.
[36:04] » That's 16 ft.
>> 16 ft?
[36:07] » And that's a shed style roof. So,
there's an existing garage on the next
[36:10] side of the side of that that will start
with a shed style off of that garage and
[36:14] come down.
Um which will match what's on the actual
[36:17] house itself.
>> That's very helpful context, especially
[36:21] given the zero-foot setback.
>> Okay.
[36:24] Um the actual roof on the house has uh
where you can exposed fasteners. Um,
[36:29] when we do this it will be hidden
fasteners.
[36:31] So, not so much a barn look to it.
>> Thank you for that clarification.
[36:36] » Thank you.
>> Any other questions from the board for
[36:39] the applicant?
[36:42] Um, thank you very much. Is there any
public comment?
[36:47] And hearing none, let's move on to board
deliberation.
[36:51] » Actually, Chris, if you don't mind, I'm
not sure the the correct place to put
[36:54] this. I like your garage very much and I
will vote in support of it. I just
[36:59] wanted to talk to you just for a minute
about your amazing house.
[37:03] Uh, there are not any other five
house blocks in Madison. There's four
[37:08] house blocks, three house blocks, but no
other five house blocks. This is built
[37:12] in 1835
and it's known as the McLean block. So,
[37:16] here's your whole block of houses here.
And you know, we can look at some of the
[37:20] other structures and guess um about, you
know, how this building how these five
[37:26] buildings looked together back in 1835.
So, here is a completely fantasized
[37:32] picture of the buildings with the six
over six windows, with the transoms over
[37:37] all the doors, and it is just a unique
block. You know, we don't have anything
[37:41] else like it in town. And Madison, you
know, was unlike other historic
[37:45] districts in the country. We have
preserved our smaller and medium-sized
[37:48] buildings. You know, other towns, they
save all the big ones. Everybody wants
[37:52] to save the big ones, but everybody
doesn't always save the little ones. And
[37:56] so, we have such a complete intact uh
situation here. I think you can think of
[38:00] your house, you know, your own building.
Each house here is its own distinct
[38:05] unit, but this also is a whole
streetscape, all of these five buildings
[38:09] together. And so, I just want to thank
you so much for putting investment and
[38:14] attention into this magnificent
building. There's so many signs here of
[38:17] high-quality construction. The entire
five-unit block is Flemish brick bond,
[38:23] which is high quality brick
construction. It's not common bond.
[38:26] There's neat um
arched not arched but um
[38:30] brick um
things over the windows. Uh sort of flat
[38:34] arches if you will over every single
window in the whole structure. I mean
[38:38] it's just it's a magnificent set of
buildings. I you know, I just want to
[38:41] congratulate you on your amazing
building in this whole amazing block and
[38:45] just thank you for putting the attention
that it needs because it's been a sorely
[38:50] neglected block. So, that was a little
bit of a transgression but thank you.
[38:53] » one that the owner Mark Puckett has
done. We did one on Walnut Street. I'm
[38:56] sure you guys are familiar with the one
we did on Walnut Street and this one.
[38:59] So, I believe with this block here, the
one on the very end has already been
[39:01] redone also and then we're doing the
other end. Hopefully somebody will do
[39:04] something with the ones there through
the middle too.
[39:06] » Right. No, over time, you know, they've
been changed and some of them have these
[39:10] entrance entrance ways, you know, that
was a new thing. So, I I must say that,
[39:15] you know, Link LeDington who's I think
here tonight, he was the one who helped
[39:18] me understand all of these neat uh
historical uh features of this very cool
[39:23] block. So, anyway, thank you very much.
>> Well, happy it is never a procedural
[39:29] transgression to point out very good
news. So, thank you so much for sharing
[39:33] and thank you again.
[39:38] So, uh
board deliberation Does anyone have any
[39:42] concerns about the proposed project?
[39:47] If not, does anyone have a motion?
[39:52] » I do.
>> Oh, you do have some concerns, Bill?
[39:55] » Uh I don't have a concern. I have
>> Oh, you have a motion. Oh, even better.
[39:59] » I move that we accept the application
that's been presented for 526 Jefferson
[40:05] uh to build a new garage with standing
seam roof and LP SmartSide.
[40:11] Do I hear a second?
>> Uh Bill, I think that was the the last
[40:16] one that we were talking about the
standing seam roof and the the LP Smart
[40:19] Siding. I think that's inherent in the
application. So, we just need a motion
[40:22] to approve the application as proposed.
>> I move to accept the application as it's
[40:27] proposed.
>> I second.
[40:30] » Thank you.
All those in favor?
[40:33] » I.
>> I.
[40:34] » Any opposed? Hearing none.
Thank you.
[40:40] Okay, Brenna, on with the next one.
>> Okay.
[40:43] Next up is 205 Saint Michaels Avenue.
This um structure was built this year,
[40:49] 2026.
Um it is zoned residential medium
[40:52] density, and this request is to build a
12-ft by 16-ft deck off of the back of
[40:57] the house, and to place a 10 by 12
garden shed in the backyard.
[41:02] » Hello, Mr. Taylor. Welcome back.
>> Well, thank you for having me back.
[41:07] So, this is the request. Um
the house is almost done, and I have got
[41:13] approval for the fence for the back by
the alley. And but before I do the
[41:18] fence, I like to get that uh garden shed
in there first.
[41:22] And uh it's LP
siding. Uh
[41:25] the picture has uh metal, but I'm going
to put shingles on it.
[41:30] And um it's a 10 by 12 just to store a
bunch of garden stuff, and um
[41:36] Um and then the deck, um
just a regular 10 by 12 deck
[41:42] in the back. This is just uh an example,
and it might change a little, but not
[41:47] too much on that. But the it's just
going to be coming out of the sliding of
[41:51] the back door, and uh
just
[41:55] enjoy some cookout.
So,
[42:00] if there's anything else I need to bring
up, or if you all have any questions,
[42:04] just feel free to ask me.
>> Well, I think that you benefit from us
[42:07] having reviewed the plan for your house
and understanding the property and its
[42:10] context. So, I don't Does anyone else on
Does anyone on the board have questions?
[42:18] Thank you.
>> Um so out of curiosity, so the the shed
[42:21] itself is 12-ft tall, correct?
>> Tall?
[42:25] » Yeah.
>> Uh you know, I didn't get that
[42:27] measurement. I don't believe uh
>> That's not the end of the world. I was
[42:31] just curious. Um
and then how tall will your fence be?
[42:37] » Well, I'd like it to have a little
taller, but I think uh per
[42:40] it can't be taller than 6 ft.
>> 6 ft is the limit.
[42:43] » Okay.
Um
[42:45] » Cuz the the side of the fence between my
neighbors, we put that up. Uh
[42:50] so it it would it's not It's going to be
about almost the same height.
[42:53] » Okay.
>> So.
[42:56] But the fence is already approved.
>> Sure.
[42:59] » Yeah.
[43:03] » Are there any other questions for the
applicant from the board?
[43:08] Is there any public comment?
[43:12] Thank you. Hearing none, let's move on
to board deliberation.
[43:16] Um I agree with the staff recommendation
here.
[43:23] » Yeah, I I agree as well.
[43:26] » Does anyone have any concerns they'd
like to to bring to our attention?
[43:32] Hearing none, would anyone like to make
a motion?
[43:37] » I move the Madison Historic Board of
Review approve the uh the deck and the
[43:42] um the shed being proposed for um sorry,
I forgot the address.
[43:48] 205 St. Michael's
um as presented.
[43:51] » I second that.
[43:54] » All those in favor?
>> I.
[43:56] » I.
>> Any opposed?
[43:58] Hearing none.
Thank you.
[44:04] » Okay. Next up, we have 317 West 3rd
Street. This is a contributing
[44:10] structure. It is a federal and
Italianate style duplex double
[44:16] house um built in 1845 zoned historic
district residential. And this is a
[44:20] request to place a black vinyl privacy
screen along the property line.
[44:26] » Thank you, Breanna.
>> Hi. My name is Sandy Deardorff. This is
[44:29] my husband, Jim, and we own the property
here at 317. I prepared a statement
[44:34] which I'm going to give you He's going
to give each of you a copy and I'm going
[44:37] to read it because I want to address the
issues that were uh presented to all of
[44:41] you.
[44:46] » Thank you, Breanna.
[44:55] I'm over here, I think.
>> So, we are requesting approval of the
[45:00] privacy screen that we have attached to
the existing wrought iron
[45:05] fence that was already in place. The
existing fence remains in good condition
[45:10] as we did not remove or alter this hot
historic fence. Rather, we attached a
[45:16] black privacy screen panels um to the
fence using removable fasteners. To
[45:22] provide additional support for the
panels, black painted 2x2 in boards were
[45:27] attached horizontally to the existing
fence and the panels were secured with
[45:33] black zip ties.
The privacy screen panels are
[45:36] approximately 48 in by 72
by 72 in high. The installation is
[45:41] reversible and could be removed without
damage to the wrought iron fence. The
[45:46] purpose of the installation was to
provide privacy, not to replace the
[45:51] existing fence.
We understand that concerns have been
[45:54] raised regarding sections 20.8 and 20.9
of the historic district design
[46:00] guidelines regarding
contemporary materials and alterations
[46:05] to existing fences. However, we
respectfully request that the board
[46:09] consider the following.
The historic wrought iron fence remains
[46:14] intact and visible. The privacy screen
is an attachment to the existing fence
[46:19] rather than replacement of the historic
feature.
[46:23] Similar contemporary fencing materials
including vinyl fencing already exist
[46:29] throughout the historic district.
Several white vinyl fences are visible
[46:33] in public view within the district. In
addition, there are examples of other
[46:37] non-historic screening materials being
used on residential properties. We have
[46:42] provided photographs of some examples.
The privacy screen is black in color and
[46:48] visually unobtrusive. It was selected to
blend with the existing black wrought
[46:52] iron fence rather than draw attention to
itself.
[46:56] The screen addresses a legitimate
privacy concern. Without the screen,
[47:01] there's a direct line of sight from
neighboring properties, the public
[47:05] sidewalk, and passing traffic into our
porch area and into portions of our
[47:09] kitchen and dining room.
The privacy screen allows us reasonable
[47:13] enjoyment of our home while maintaining
the existing historic fence.
[47:19] In addition,
we ask the board to consider the
[47:23] personal
circumstances that make the privacy
[47:26] especially important at this time.
[47:31] Approximately 5 months ago, I was
diagnosed with lymphoma and currently
[47:35] facing treatment decisions
that may include chemotherapy. As my
[47:40] family and I navigate this difficult
period, maintaining a greater degree of
[47:43] privacy at our home has become
particularly important to our comfort
[47:48] and to our well-being.
The screens help provide that privacy
[47:52] while allowing the historic wrought iron
fence to remain in place.
[47:57] We respectfully request that the board
approve the installation as a reasonable
[48:02] accommodation that balances the goals of
historic preservation with the practical
[48:07] privacy needs of Jim and Lisa
as homeowners in the Madison Historic
[48:11] District.
We thank each of you for your
[48:14] consideration.
[48:17] » Thank you very much. Do any members of
the board have questions for the
[48:20] applicant?
Well,
[48:25] » the fence is already up. Does that mean
[48:29] » The fence
has already been
[48:32] erected?
>> The screens are already The screens are
[48:35] already installed.
>> Okay, so you did that without approval.
[48:39] You just went and did it, right?
>> We did not know that we needed approval
[48:42] because we were just putting it along
the fence line. A complaint was filed,
[48:47] so we were advised that we need to get a
certificate of appropriateness. So,
[48:53] that's why we're doing this backwards.
>> Uh-huh.
[48:58] Um
[49:01] Hm.
>> Is uh the privacy screen um does it have
[49:06] fence posts going down into the ground
or is it sort of a more temporary kind
[49:10] of thing?
>> It is It does not have anything The
[49:13] screens are sitting um level on the
ground.
[49:16] » And they're just attached to the metal
historic fence behind it.
[49:20] » Yes, and that is with a black zip tie.
So, unless you get very close to it,
[49:25] you're you don't see the zip ties at
all. So, it's temporary. It was just to
[49:29] provide It also is slotted so that
there's still air flow through it.
[49:34] There's still is some view through the
fence, but it provides a
[49:40] a level of privacy.
>> Is it known on which property the the
[49:45] historic fence
lies? Like whose property the historic
[49:49] fence is?
>> From our records and from everything
[49:54] that we have seen, this fence line has
been there since 1990. I have photos,
[50:00] not with this particular wrought iron,
but photos when back when Evan
[50:04] Summerfeld owned the building owned the
whole He actually owned both of the
[50:08] houses at that time. Um so there is a
fence row. So the metal fence along the
[50:13] line there butts up to a cedar fence
that goes um just past There's a shed
[50:20] there. Goes just past the shed all the
way to the alley. So we have a complete
[50:26] fence line all the way along there. So
all we have done instead of changing or
[50:30] moving anything or even extending the
cedar fence, we've added a privacy
[50:35] screen to give us some a little bit more
privacy.
[50:38] » Okay.
Thank you.
[50:44] » Are there any additional questions from
the board?
[50:45] » Yeah, I just
[50:48] Looking at it from from your
your side,
[50:51] it's a nice background to your plants.
>> It really is.
[50:55] » It makes a nice clean background.
Um I don't know that you it should stick
[51:00] out beyond the There's a building over
there.
[51:04] Um
if you look at the picture on the left,
[51:08] you see on the right side there is a all
the way to the border, there's a
[51:12] building there. So it looks like about
two of the panels
[51:16] stick out beyond that.
Um
[51:22] » That is um a shed that belongs to the
neighbor property.
[51:27] So if we And so that shed doesn't really
block the two windows and the door that
[51:32] go into our kitchen and our dining room
and it doesn't block This This view here
[51:38] is from the sidewalk
walking towards our home.
[51:43] So
And And that another thing that we did
[51:47] was we stopped the the uh screen right
at the edge of our porch because we
[51:52] weren't trying to block the whole view
of the house or be
[51:57] obtrusive in any way. We wanted to just
give a little bit of privacy to that
[52:02] lower porch because we are out there a
lot and because you can see from this
[52:06] view directly into
that first window there is my dining
[52:10] room, the door and then there's a long
kitchen window that goes from ceiling to
[52:14] floor. So, that's why we extended to
where it is.
[52:19] » All right.
How long have you lived in this house?
[52:23] » We purchased the house in 2016, July of
2016.
[52:28] So,
right at 10 years. When we bought the
[52:31] home, it's completely overgrown. We have
three gas light fixtures, couldn't even
[52:37] see those. Everything There were vines
growing into the windows.
[52:41] We've had to replace several in the back
with wood-clad aluminum windows or
[52:45] aluminum-clad windows.
Um but we've been working on the house
[52:49] for 10 years and
the reason we decided to add the screens
[52:53] this year is only before some health
reasons and just wanting a little bit
[52:56] more privacy at this time.
[53:01] » Um
I'm not
[53:03] being argumentative here.
We have a similar situation at our house
[53:07] and we we use curtains, you know, cuz
our dining room
[53:12] looks across an alley
into a
[53:15] and not really well-fixed up house next
door.
[53:19] And uh
we just pull the curtains closed when
[53:23] we're sitting there.
That's all. That's all I have to say.
[53:27] » We do have window shades on all of our
windows and we do close them typically
[53:31] at night, but if we do have company or
family over for dinner or something, I
[53:36] don't normally close everything up while
we're there. And then sitting on the
[53:40] porch outside, we have a beautiful side
porch and love spending time out there
[53:45] and it just affords us a little bit more
privacy.
[53:52] » I have no more comments right at the
moment.
[53:54] » Are there any further questions from the
board?
[53:58] Thank you. Is there any public comment?
[54:02] » I would like to
I just like to point out in favor of the
[54:07] couple here that in our UDO there is
nothing specifically pertaining to
[54:11] privacy fences or screens, rather.
Uh only fencing, which this is not a
[54:17] permanent structure.
Um so, I believe they have that going
[54:21] for it and I hope you guys approve it
for them.
[54:27] Thank you.
[54:30] » Mike Pittman, 420 Elm Street. It's
different. I'm usually on S uh days.
[54:39] Uh
I'd like to tell you about that fence
[54:42] that's covered up.
That fence was covered up uh uh it was
[54:47] Linda and I bought our my house back in
the last century. Hard to believe it's
[54:51] the last century. In late 1990s,
mid-1990s.
[54:55] There were two gentlemen on our street.
Some of you may have heard of them. Evan
[54:58] Summerfield
and uh
[55:04] Evan Summerfield and uh he'll come to
me.
[55:11] » Happens to me, too.
>> No, Arliss Helton.
[55:15] Arliss Helton worked for for Duke. And
and of course Evan Summerfield, if you
[55:19] knew him, he did had a wonderful uh
historic uh
[55:24] store downtown and and he searched the
world for different different antiques
[55:30] and things and we have several in our
house.
[55:32] But from the standpoint of Arliss
Helton, Arliss came to us as we were
[55:36] rehabbing our house at 420 Elm Street
and he basically said, "Hey Mike,
[55:42] all this all the houses
on
[55:46] Third Street on the south side between
here and the fountain have beautiful
[55:52] historic iron fences.
He said, "I got one for you, but you got
[55:56] to buy it,
but Evan's trying to buy it, too."
[56:00] So, and Evan's our neighbor, too.
So, I mean it was kind of a a race here,
[56:05] so Lynn and I were going to Louisville
to get the wrought iron fence
[56:10] and lo and behold we're able to purchase
it.
[56:13] But, we didn't have enough fence. So,
Evan, being the gentleman he was, said,
[56:17] "Well, I can get you some other type
fences along the sides and back and
[56:21] forth." So, I'm pretty emotional about
that and I feel very bad for Sandy's
[56:25] situation. I think there's another way
to accommodate what she needs with
[56:30] another
addition to her home that wouldn't cover
[56:34] up that wonderful fencing we have and
everyone can see. Believe it or not,
[56:39] right now those of you went by the house
probably couldn't see
[56:42] back between the houses because
my wife's a prolific gardener
[56:47] and Sandy's got some beautiful stuff and
everything is is grown up, so it's very
[56:50] difficult to see.
But, in the summertime
[56:54] when the leaves come off the trees in
the winter
[56:57] it's nice to be able to see that iron
fence and see that the beauty of it as
[57:00] well as the iron fence we have around
the front. I have some pictures.
[57:05] The Deer Dors have been very active in
Excuse me.
[57:09] » modifying fences
wrought iron.
[57:16] » That is the wood fence that Sandy talked
about
[57:19] that you can see that the fencing has
been wood fencing has been moved and
[57:23] changed.
This is the way the the
[57:27] plastic fence is attached to the iron
fence.
[57:39] » Tho- Those of you that know
wood
[57:43] and if you know if it's not painted and
treated, it's going to rot. I I expect
[57:47] that will not last.
[57:51] These are the installations of the fence
as you walk back into the
[57:55] through the area of Sandy's house.
[58:00] You can notice that they're not aligned
and there's missing screws.
[58:15] This is a picture of what you could see
without the
[58:18] leaves on the trees.
[58:28] Well, I understand Sandy's need for
privacy. I had a very ill wife for a
[58:32] number of years.
Of course, she's pro- hopefully looking
[58:35] down on me right now and saying, "What
are you doing up there, dummy?"
[58:38] But, uh she she uh she had a rough go of
it, too, and I understand the need for
[58:43] privacy.
But, I also understand the need for us
[58:46] maintaining
the block we have
[58:49] right there on on Elm Street and and
also uh
[58:53] West 3rd Street.
Uh
[58:55] there's not a day goes by that we don't
get somebody stopping. In fact, we had
[58:59] some people from St. Joseph, Michigan.
We had some gentleman from Champaign,
[59:02] Illinois. They stopped me, talked to us
for 20 25 minutes. Linda's a great
[59:07] ambassador for this town. She she does a
lot of good things.
[59:11] My fear is that
this fence won't be
[59:14] temporary.
I think it it uh should not be approved,
[59:18] and I think there are other alternatives
for for covering that up. Uh this fence
[59:22] was installed, I think, in about 3 days.
So, those of you who know fencing, you
[59:26] don't install a fence in 3 days if it's
going to last. So, gentlemen, I urge you
[59:30] not to approve this
application. Thank you.
[59:34] » Thank you very much, Mr. Pittman.
Is there any additional public comment?
[59:40] » I have a question about one of your
pictures here.
[59:43] » Yeah.
>> So, this one here, is this the wood
[59:45] section of fencing that it's
attached to the iron fence?
[59:51] It's not the privacy screen. It's not
the middle black fence.
[59:55] » No, that fence is not
Excuse me, that fence is not attached.
[1:00:00] That is the wooden fence. It is not
attached to the wrought iron fence. We
[1:00:05] added that because that was a direct
view right into my kitchen. So, all we
[1:00:11] did was extend the wooden fence
because the
[1:00:15] the iron fence butts up to
the front of the
[1:00:20] the front of the fence butts up to the
back of our
[1:00:25] of the wooden fence. So, we extended
that since we
[1:00:29] took over. There was a gap between where
the shed
[1:00:33] on their property and the garage where
our fence starts. So, there was a big
[1:00:39] 6-ft gap that was directly into our
porch. So, and we did that several years
[1:00:45] ago. I would say 2020 2021, something
like that.
[1:00:50] We've never heard a word about it. We've
never heard any complaints or any issues
[1:00:53] at
all about that particular
[1:00:56] piece.
And that was completely out of the
[1:00:59] question.
>> Okay. Th- Thank you for that
[1:01:01] clarification.
Um
[1:01:04] so, no further public comment
uh leaves us with board deliberation and
[1:01:08] discussion.
>> I could see
[1:01:12] uh the petitioner's point of view from
the point of
[1:01:17] uh
cancer treatment. Um and I can
[1:01:21] understand the need for privacy.
Um,
[1:01:28] but I also see the next door neighbor's
point of view.
[1:01:33] Um,
[1:01:36] would we be able to do this if we say
you can leave the fence there for 18
[1:01:42] months or something, you know, a
definite period to get her through the
[1:01:47] treatment and then the fence comes down.
Does that make sense?
[1:01:54] » Yeah, I I understand. I don't think that
we can put conditional time limits on
[1:01:59] certificates of appropriateness. We
either grant them or we don't. Um, I
[1:02:03] don't think that we can have them
expire. I do agree though that this is
[1:02:07] an extremely
um, difficult
[1:02:11] decision. It's It's It's funny how some
of the hardest things we have to think
[1:02:14] of are totally reversible and permanent
privacy screens. You know, these things
[1:02:18] that don't seem like they would arouse
the
[1:02:21] complex decision-making required that
that this does. Um, cuz I certainly
[1:02:27] understand uh, Mr. Pittman's
perspective, but uh, my heart absolutely
[1:02:31] goes out to the applicant and the need
here is clear and
[1:02:34] reversibility is such a key um, aspect
of historic preservation and the fact
[1:02:40] that this is entirely reversible and I
think
[1:02:42] to Mr. Pittman's point inherently
non-permanent just because of the um,
[1:02:48] nature of the materials construction
methods used. I mean, zip ties don't
[1:02:51] tend to last decades.
Um,
[1:02:54] uh, it's it's it's tough. I do have a
a question for city staff. I appreciated
[1:03:00] the
comment about
[1:03:03] the
guidelines and our zoning ordinance not
[1:03:07] speaking to truly impermanent
changes. So, you know, this isn't a
[1:03:12] fence. This is a screen that's been
applied to a
[1:03:17] uh, zip ties, you know, are they
permanent
[1:03:21] fasteners that
imbue this fence with some sort of level
[1:03:25] of permanency that puts us in our within
our purview, or is this something that
[1:03:30] the board might not even have purview to
review as an impermanent alteration?
[1:03:39] » So, typically this would be something
that is considered staff, but given the
[1:03:43] complaint, um
it was brought to to the board for that
[1:03:48] reason.
Um, because of the impermanence of it,
[1:03:54] that is why it would typically stay as
staff, but because of the complaint,
[1:03:58] that is why we have it here. So,
does that answer?
[1:04:01] » It it does. My understanding is is that
we only review permanent alterations. If
[1:04:07] someone did an art exhibit in their
front yard or something that was, you
[1:04:11] know, impermanent, that's not typically
within our purview.
[1:04:15] Um, so
I think that
[1:04:19] even if as a if we were to consider it
permanent, then we would have the
[1:04:24] question of does it comply with the
guidelines, but if the decision is and
[1:04:30] the opinion is that it's impermanent,
then it's, you know, again, not not up
[1:04:34] to us.
[1:04:38] I
I I I sure wish the city attorney was
[1:04:42] here right now to give us a very formal
opinion on whether or not this is
[1:04:45] appropriate for us to even take action
on.
[1:04:49] » Does the guidelines I I couldn't find it
in here, but do do the guidelines
[1:04:54] specify
what temporary means
[1:04:58] in this case?
>> I don't believe so.
[1:05:00] » Okay.
>> This is kind of a an unusual case.
[1:05:03] » Yeah.
>> Yeah.
[1:05:05] » I'm looking here on 28 uh, 20.8 and 20.9
and this is in the the on fences and
[1:05:11] walls.
And I think, you know, we have
[1:05:13] guidelines about fences, but we really
don't have guidelines about something
[1:05:17] like this that is temporary. I walked
past both these properties. These are
[1:05:20] absolutely stunningly beautiful
properties, both of them. Both a credit
[1:05:23] to the neighborhood and to the historic
district. Both these owners are doing
[1:05:27] wonderful jobs with their properties.
From the street,
[1:05:30] it seems an unobtrusive
um kind of fitting in uh privacy screen.
[1:05:37] Um and it would seem that though being
temporary, it might not fall under our
[1:05:43] perview.
>> Yeah, I I think that the safest course
[1:05:47] of action for us here
um
[1:05:50] is probably to table the application and
I can get a reading from or an opinion
[1:05:57] from the city attorney as to whether or
not this is in fact temporary. If we
[1:06:01] were to table the application, the
privacy screen would remain as it
[1:06:05] currently is
um while we figure that out. And if the
[1:06:10] ultimate opinion of the city attorney is
that it is temporary and not in our
[1:06:14] perview, then no further action would be
needed by this board. It would only be
[1:06:18] if the city attorney decided that this
is in fact a permanent installation that
[1:06:22] requires our approval that it would come
back to us.
[1:06:26] Um
without having clarity on that issue, I
[1:06:29] don't feel comfortable saying yay or nay
at this juncture personally.
[1:06:34] » Well, if we agree it's it's uh a
temporary structure, and then you got to
[1:06:39] say how temporary. I mean, 10 years?
>> Well, and that's So, the issue there is
[1:06:45] that this board is not empowered to make
a decision about what the definition of
[1:06:49] the word temporary is. We're only
empowered to
[1:06:52] uh evaluate applications for their
conformance with the guidelines. And so,
[1:06:57] I think that that's where we need the
city attorney to tell us whether or not
[1:07:00] this is in fact within our perview. And
you know, if it's impermanent, it's not.
[1:07:05] If it's permanent, it is, and we'll hear
it again.
[1:07:09] » I'd also like to say on on their defense
that they are keeping the existing
[1:07:16] wrought iron fence. So, even if it was a
permanent structure,
[1:07:20] the next person who bought the property
or later down the line, that wrought
[1:07:24] iron fence is still there and can always
be re-exposed.
[1:07:28] » Yeah, the reversibility is, you know, a
key consideration here, and the fact
[1:07:32] that no historic materials are being
harmed today by us not resolving this
[1:07:37] question right now and getting this
extra clarity. I think if there was
[1:07:41] substantial harm to materials or, you
know, building occurring here, we might
[1:07:47] feel more pressure to make a decision,
but I think getting this one exactly
[1:07:51] right, especially um given how
well-founded Mr. Pittman's concerns
[1:07:56] were, and then giving the
heartbreaking extenuating circumstances
[1:07:59] for the applicant, I think that, you
know, taking some time to do this
[1:08:03] correctly is warranted.
Um would anyone be willing to to help me
[1:08:08] out with a a motion to table this
application
[1:08:11] pending uh review of its
uh whether or not it falls within the
[1:08:15] purview of our board by the city
attorney?
[1:08:20] » I move that we table the application
um
[1:08:24] um being proposed by the uh
by the uh the owners at uh 317 West 3rd
[1:08:31] Street uh pending deliberation by the
Madison uh city attorney.
[1:08:38] » Do we have a second?
>> I second.
[1:08:42] » All those in favor?
>> I.
[1:08:44] » I.
>> Any opposed?
[1:08:47] None heard.
>> Opposed.
[1:08:49] » Oh, one We do have one opposed.
>> I don't think we're talking about this
[1:08:53] enough, but
you guys carried the You have the
[1:08:56] majority here.
>> Well, while we made a motion to table,
[1:08:59] if If have anything else you'd like to
add, I we be to hear it.
[1:09:03] » you know, the
I hate to say we're spending all this
[1:09:07] time on a plastic fence, you know, cuz
we got a lot of stuff to go through
[1:09:11] here. And it how I never would have
thought we'd get stopped on something
[1:09:14] like this, but you deal with something
uh
[1:09:18] it's a personal opinion of mine that in
a historic district when you fix your
[1:09:24] house up uh
it's not just not what you see what
[1:09:31] somebody driving by in a car sees your
house and say, "Oh, that's swell."
[1:09:35] The guy the the neighbors see what your
house is. So, we're and I've dealt with
[1:09:41] this we've had this several times before
where somebody put they already put the
[1:09:46] windows in. Remember that just happened
up on on a couple blocks from here. They
[1:09:51] already took the good windows out and
put plastic windows in. Um and uh it's
[1:09:57] but right next door was a house that
somebody had actually done it right. So,
[1:10:02] when he looks out his window, he sees
plastic fencing or he sees plastic
[1:10:07] windows. When they look out their
window, they see a restored house. So,
[1:10:13] and there's there is uh
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what
[1:10:16] kind of language to use on saying
something like that. What you uh
[1:10:21] diminish someone else's effort by not
doing the effort yourself. You follow
[1:10:26] what I'm saying? They get a free nice
view out their front window of a
[1:10:29] beautiful house. And whereas in this
system uh this situation of of a couple
[1:10:36] months ago
the
[1:10:38] man that put the plastic windows looks
out the windows and he sees a really
[1:10:42] nice house across the street. So, um
we're we're kind of into that territory
[1:10:48] for me. And and I would say if we would
say
[1:10:51] it's temporary because I don't think
vinyl fencing is even permitted. We make
[1:10:56] allowances for it.
And And we could make an allowance here,
[1:11:01] but I would say also make an allowance
that it can be there
[1:11:05] 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, but there's a
end point to it where it's got to come
[1:11:10] out. You can't sell the house with a
plastic like, you know, 5 years down the
[1:11:14] road, it's too big a house for you guys
and you want to downsize.
[1:11:19] That fence has to go.
Do you follow me?
[1:11:22] » Yeah, I think I I agree with your
concerns and I think that there perhaps
[1:11:27] are
more architecturally sensitive ways to
[1:11:31] achieve privacy in some of these
settings.
[1:11:35] You know,
and again though, I think what we're
[1:11:37] suffering from is a lack of a definition
of what is temporary versus permanent
[1:11:43] and
>> Probably there is no definition of
[1:11:45] temporary.
>> which is which is why the city attorney
[1:11:47] needs to look to probably Indiana case
law
[1:11:50] » Okay.
>> to determine what that word means.
[1:11:53] If
5 years down the road this vinyl fence
[1:11:57] is still up, then I
really pushes the envelope of being
[1:12:00] temporary. So to me, um
you know, this is a question that that
[1:12:05] is bigger than this application and it
is indeed always interesting at these
[1:12:10] meetings as to what these small
>> You never know what these things are
[1:12:12] going to turn into big things.
>> to turn into big conversations. So, um
[1:12:17] thank you very much to the the applicant
and and to Mr. Pittman for your patience
[1:12:21] as we try and and figure this out. We
understand both your situation and why
[1:12:26] you want the fence and your concerns and
we're going to, you know, try and handle
[1:12:30] this by the book and we appreciate your
patience in what we do.
[1:12:35] So,
um with that, I think we've officially
[1:12:38] tabled the application. Um thank you
very much.
[1:12:45] » Okay. Next up, we have 1017 West First
Street.
[1:12:50] This is a contributing structure built
in the Italianate style in 1876. Zone
[1:12:55] historic district residential and this
is a request to build a 24 by 26 two-bay
[1:13:00] garage in line with the house
with a second floor deck to attach to
[1:13:05] the house.
>> Good evening. My name is Lisa York and I
[1:13:08] live at 1017 West 1st Street.
And
[1:13:13] I'm at the next phase and I'm
approaching you all to see if you can
[1:13:18] agree with me that I can have a garage.
[1:13:27] » Okay.
Are there any questions from the board
[1:13:31] for the applicant?
[1:13:36] » Well,
I don't want to start off again with the
[1:13:41] same thing of same tone that I had with
the
[1:13:44] uh privacy fence.
Um
[1:13:48] go back Can you go back to the pre- No.
There you go.
[1:13:53] You got a neat house there.
And it's a gem. Um and I was actually
[1:13:59] I've been surprised. We've talked. We
know her personally. That wow, you're
[1:14:03] really tackling this thing and you're
doing a great job.
[1:14:07] This changes the feel of the house. Um
although I can understand you need a
[1:14:12] garage. I totally agree with that.
Um
[1:14:19] when I was looking through the
uh the the paperwork that we get on
[1:14:24] this, I never really figured out how you
Is there going to be step You want to
[1:14:30] put a a deck on top, right?
>> Yes, that's correct. I My master bedroom
[1:14:35] is the of those three windows there and
the purpose was to have a deck that
[1:14:41] connected the house to the the garage
and not only is that going to give me
[1:14:47] living space outside to enjoy the river,
but it will also give me a fire egress,
[1:14:52] which I think is critical.
[1:14:58] » Are there any other questions for the
applicant?
[1:15:00] » Well, well, okay, so we're looking at a
little mini wall here. That's where
[1:15:05] the peak comes together like that,
right?
[1:15:08] » The the parapet wall was designed for
privacy for my for my deck, but it also
[1:15:16] Ryan
brought it to my attention that the
[1:15:20] height of the garage is
minuscule compared to the height of the
[1:15:24] house. So the the parapet basically
kind of brings everything kind of to
[1:15:30] scale, so to speak, proportional.
So that's the purpose of the parapet
[1:15:35] wall.
[1:15:37] Now,
I have
[1:15:41] I originally
had envisioned a a crown mold there
[1:15:47] rather than the X's.
I think that
[1:15:51] Ryan was just thinking outside the box
as far as decor,
[1:15:55] but a crown molding would be very
appealing to me as well if it would be
[1:15:58] for you all.
[1:16:01] » Brenna, can you switch to the drawing
that shows the pitch of the garage roof?
[1:16:09] Yeah, I'm this one or the last one. At
any point did
[1:16:13] any point did you ever consider going
with just a flat roof to the garage to
[1:16:17] really capture a larger second floor
deck or is the pitch absolutely
[1:16:21] necessary for some reason?
>> I originally had planned a a flat deck
[1:16:26] all the way across and there would not
have been a breezeway,
[1:16:31] but from a cost standpoint the the
membrane that you put on top that you
[1:16:36] can use the upper level was just crazy
expensive.
[1:16:41] And so that is why I I did the second
version and used the breezeway instead
[1:16:47] to make, you know, a nice area up
upstairs, but uh it's not huge.
[1:16:55] Brian and I calculated the three the
pitch there is 3 12 pitch.
[1:17:00] » That's that's helpful. Brenna, can you
show the other
[1:17:03] There we go.
>> And he is telling me that uh there's
[1:17:07] about 6 in
that are s- going to allow for flashing.
[1:17:12] » Okay.
[1:17:15] Thank thank you for that clarification
and discussion.
[1:17:20] » Well, the para- parapet parapet wall
that we're seeing in the other picture
[1:17:24] is hiding, yeah, that that stretch in
the whole length of your structure here
[1:17:29] and it's sort of hiding or giving you
privacy for both your deck and then the
[1:17:34] part of the garage roof that slopes down
that we saw in that other picture.
[1:17:37] » That's correct.
[1:17:40] » Um and
um why do you want that parapet wall to
[1:17:45] go s- back so far? You could just have
had it giving you the privacy from the
[1:17:49] deck, right?
>> Yes, that that would be an option.
[1:17:53] » I guess I'm having a little trouble with
the permanent alteration of the back of
[1:17:57] your historic building. There are
words in the guidelines, you know, about
[1:18:01] a permanent
alteration. I mean, there are a lot of
[1:18:04] buildings in town that had a almost like
a shed or a back portion uh attaching.
[1:18:10] I'm not sure that we've seen anything
that looks like this yet in the historic
[1:18:14] district. Somebody can correct me, but
this is kind of a new new one
[1:18:18] a little bit for me.
>> I got the idea while I was jogging
[1:18:22] downtown. Um there's a home that and I
don't I'm forgive me, I I can't remember
[1:18:27] the name of the street, but it it's on
the west side of the Lanier home.
[1:18:31] There is a a two-car garage that has um
is basically crown molding.
[1:18:38] uh that goes along the top, but it
basically kind of mimics what Ryan has
[1:18:44] here as far as the two car the the
garage door and then the roof slant
[1:18:49] slants down going west.
I'm
[1:18:53] at a loss at the name of the street. I
showed you the picture. Mhm. Um
[1:18:57] it wasn't uh I think their front
actually went all the way up. It wasn't
[1:19:02] a parapet wall, but it would it gives
you a very similar look than what I'm
[1:19:06] getting or what I'm asking for.
But that's where I really got the idea.
[1:19:14] » Are there any other questions from the
board for the applicant?
[1:19:19] » Um
well
[1:19:25] the whole parapet
the wall that goes all the way out
[1:19:30] that could be removed, right?
>> Mhm.
[1:19:33] » And then you just have
maybe a rail fence
[1:19:38] on this side.
>> Mhm.
[1:19:40] » Maybe put slats in there. But they're
they could be at an angle to give you a
[1:19:45] little more privacy. Possibly.
>> Okay.
[1:19:48] » And we shouldn't be I don't mean to be
redesigning her project. Uh
[1:19:53] but
this changes the whole appearance of the
[1:19:57] house.
>> I would not be opposed to um removing
[1:20:03] the parapet um and and using a form of a
handrail.
[1:20:08] Um
[1:20:11] » And then you got there's three windows
as I remember at the top. So you're
[1:20:15] going to take the windows out and put it
>> all three. Just just the center one. And
[1:20:21] my plan was to and that's not in this
drawing, but my plan is to use that
[1:20:26] window that I'm taking out and putting
it on that south wall.
[1:20:29] I uh
I plan to put a a door
[1:20:34] a 3-ft by 6-ft door
>> Like French doors type of thing?
[1:20:37] » It would just be a single door. From a
cost standpoint
[1:20:41] and it would be symmetrical when you
have two windows on each side of a a
[1:20:46] door that's all glass.
>> So it'll be two windows and one door.
[1:20:51] » One door.
>> Okay.
[1:20:52] » And then I would use reuse that window
that I'm taking out of the house and
[1:20:56] putting it on that wall.
>> What wall? On the on the garage wall?
[1:21:07] Okay. Are there any more questions from
the board for the applicant?
[1:21:11] » Uh Prana has um got here on the staff
recommendation raised the roof pitch
[1:21:16] along the south wall.
Can you kind of um just kind of comment
[1:21:20] on that what your thinking is there?
>> That had been a discussion that Lisa and
[1:21:24] I had had about
um how steep the pitch was.
[1:21:28] Um and just raising it just so it wasn't
quite so severe.
[1:21:33] Um
given the
[1:21:37] » You want this to be steeper?
>> No.
[1:21:40] » Less steep?
>> Less steep.
[1:21:41] » And how how come?
>> Can't go less than 312.
[1:21:45] I I wouldn't
with shingles anyway.
[1:21:48] » water
um
[1:21:50] » Okay.
>> purposes.
[1:21:51] » So this is the plan. What what we have
here.
[1:21:55] Okay.
>> Yeah. Ryan is telling me that that's a
[1:21:57] 312 pitch.
[1:22:01] » And you
you wouldn't recommend less than 312?
[1:22:06] » Not with a shingle roof, no.
>> Oh.
[1:22:08] » You can't.
>> Okay.
[1:22:09] » by code. Um may I make a suggestion to
you, Lisa? So when I looked at it, I
[1:22:14] think uh
kind of same concerns popped up with
[1:22:17] that parapet wall just not matching.
Um my idea was and I like your crown
[1:22:24] molding idea as well because that does
tie into historical.
[1:22:28] What about raising the parapet wall even
higher to match the roof line
[1:22:34] and then do your crown molding like it's
a gutter
[1:22:38] and match the a brick facade on that
parapet wall. So, it almost looks like
[1:22:42] the whole building goes all the way
across.
[1:22:46] » I I mean so you're talking about the
>> Go to the last picture, please.
[1:22:50] » west exposure of the house or of the
building
[1:22:54] » the parapet wall
>> wherever it is That side would be would
[1:22:58] be brick here?
>> Taking the parapet wall, raising it up
[1:23:02] to where the gutters essentially are
and then our crown molding would would
[1:23:06] basically match the gutter profile all
the way across to the end of the parapet
[1:23:12] wall and matching a brick facade on that
parapet wall. Essentially making it look
[1:23:17] like it's all part of that same
building.
[1:23:21] Just my idea. Not
>> Well, before we we start redesigning the
[1:23:25] applicant's project for which I think a
lot of us want to
[1:23:30] you know discuss. Um
I think we need to just clarify are
[1:23:33] there any further questions from the
board for the applicant and then we need
[1:23:36] to hear if there's any public comment.
>> No more.
[1:23:40] » that you have on there, are they
actually three-dimensional? You have
[1:23:43] them drawn in the black.
>> Uh well, again Ryan um
[1:23:48] threw that in as a kind of a design
concept. Um
[1:23:53] I'm
uh It would be 3D if if the dentals
[1:23:57] remain, but again I'm not opposed to a
crown molding, too.
[1:24:05] » I look at the dentals as being out of
size for the building and for other you
[1:24:09] know other buildings that we see they're
generally pretty small.
[1:24:14] Um
>> I'm actually not opposed to um Jed's
[1:24:18] idea about a a handrail
and that we would um just top the garage
[1:24:26] off appropriately, you know,
aesthetically
[1:24:30] and just have a handrail.
I would be opposed to I would not be
[1:24:33] opposed to that
if you guys do not like the parapet
[1:24:38] wall.
[1:24:41] » Any further questions from the board for
the applicant?
[1:24:46] Thank you very much. Is there any public
comment?
[1:24:50] Okay, hearing none, let's move on now to
board deliberation. Bill, I agree with
[1:24:56] the last point that you just made that
this dental is a bit out of scale.
[1:24:59] This is a very different design,
different from anything that we've seen
[1:25:02] before, but that doesn't make it bad.
Differentiation
[1:25:08] from the historic is one of the
important tenants for the treatment of
[1:25:11] historic properties and within our
guidelines.
[1:25:14] That being said, I think that there are
some design challenges here as as were
[1:25:19] brought up during the
questions to the applicant that perhaps
[1:25:22] we should talk through
in order to
[1:25:25] fully evaluate whether this complies
with the guidelines.
[1:25:37] » I'm really struggling with this one. I
would be more comfortable with the
[1:25:40] free-standing garage and maybe just a
deck coming out from the master bedroom,
[1:25:46] not connecting the buildings.
You know, with the historic district,
[1:25:50] you know, we're we're trying to preserve
what's historic here in the historic
[1:25:54] look so we can continue to maintain our
national historic landmark district
[1:25:58] status, which was very hard to get. So,
we're trying not to change the historic
[1:26:03] structures too much. I understand people
really want to do what they want to do
[1:26:06] with their houses, but it's just really
a struggle. So, I'm having trouble
[1:26:12] trouble with the connectedness of your
design to the historic building.
[1:26:17] » I would like to see
uh
[1:26:20] another continuation here where we cable
it for now.
[1:26:25] She gets together with Ryan
and they work
[1:26:30] on another way of approaching this to
get rid of the parapet.
[1:26:35] Um give her a deck and that uh the you
know
[1:26:40] I hate the idea of taking historic
windows out, but she's going to reuse
[1:26:44] them.
But it's on and it's also on the back of
[1:26:46] the house. So, it's not like it'll be
seen.
[1:26:51] Um
>> Yeah, they're not historic. They were
[1:26:54] actually They were
replaced 30 years ago by a plastic
[1:26:59] » Ah.
Okay.
[1:27:02] Um
[1:27:05] The uh but I
[1:27:09] I'd like to see this
she let her and Ryan work on this for
[1:27:13] another month and see what they could
come up with.
[1:27:18] » Well, let's let's talk through the
specific things that are we believe are
[1:27:22] not in compliance with the guidelines
and that
[1:27:25] would be the focus of any re-study if
that is indeed the motion that we make.
[1:27:30] And I think the one thing that everyone
has identified as being
[1:27:33] uh different from other
buildings in our district and maybe not
[1:27:37] compatible with the context of the
combination of the scale of the parapet
[1:27:41] with the
uh pitched roof in the rear. You know, I
[1:27:45] I wish that you I I I completely
understand why you uh the applicant
[1:27:48] wants to have a deck and have a a great
view. I think it's a fantastic
[1:27:52] improvement to this property and I wish
it was the entire, you know, a giant
[1:27:57] deck that went all the way to the back
of the the garage. Um but I understand
[1:28:02] why they haven't gone that direction.
That being said, I don't know if the
[1:28:05] parapet needs to extend the entire
length of the garage. I think the
[1:28:09] condition of the parapet extending past
the pitch.
[1:28:14] You know, it it it is a little
challenging.
[1:28:19] The detailing of the parapet is also the
dentals in particular out of scale, but
[1:28:23] I think the detail could use further
study, but you know, I I for one am fine
[1:28:28] with a parapet on the Craigmont side
that is facing the street and a handrail
[1:28:34] on the interior. The parapet could be
detailed and have some of the accent and
[1:28:40] flare that I think the design is going
for if if at scale.
[1:28:45] I just don't know if it needs to run the
whole length all the way down to the the
[1:28:49] end of the garage or if it could stop
where the porch stops.
[1:28:52] » Mhm.
>> That might make it a bit of a lighter
[1:28:56] addition to the historic building. To
Happy's point, I think if you know, if
[1:29:01] the parapet was was shorter, but
those are are again, my particular
[1:29:07] design concerns or or suggestions. Um
[1:29:14] How does How does the rest of the the
board feel?
[1:29:19] » I kind of feel like that if we took the
whole parapet off, get rid of it. Um
[1:29:24] there I don't think there is a privacy
kind of an issue from the west side.
[1:29:28] There's you know, there's nobody over
there to be able to see what's going on.
[1:29:32] Um I just think if we got rid of that
parapet wall, we'd be pretty much in
[1:29:36] compliance, but uh that's just me.
>> Yeah, no, I agree with you, Bill. I I
[1:29:41] would
I would be willing to vote in favor
[1:29:46] of what we have here if we can just take
off the parapet and go to the railing.
[1:29:53] » I do like the design flare of the
parapet though. It made this cool and
[1:29:57] different. So, I mean if there's a
little bit of parapet instead of a
[1:30:00] handrail that has you know, some of the
the design elements. Uh albeit the
[1:30:05] dentals restudied for scale. um
I I think that would be fine.
[1:30:16] » When you say uh smaller, are you
thinking maybe a shorter parapet wall?
[1:30:20] » No, I'm I'm
I'm I'm looking to the length of it. Um
[1:30:24] so, yeah, that Brenna, if you want to go
back
[1:30:28] um for There you go.
So, the portion of the parapet wall that
[1:30:33] extends above the pitch of the garage
roof is what I propose eliminating and
[1:30:38] to just have the parapet actually where
there is a deck. That is sort of a false
[1:30:44] building element that's being tossed up
there that almost reads like a
[1:30:48] commercial uh marquee or parapet
>> Yes, it does.
[1:30:52] » more so than something that we would
find in the context of Madison's
[1:30:56] residential historic district. So,
that's what's giving me pause is, you
[1:31:01] know,
precisely. Precisely.
[1:31:05] Um
>> I missed that. What did you say?
[1:31:08] What
Brenna, can
[1:31:11] » She's She's
>> at the screen, the right here.
[1:31:14] » Yep.
[1:31:17] » And I think that, you know,
the applicant still gets their garage,
[1:31:21] they get a deck with privacy if they
want a solid parapet to Craigmont and uh
[1:31:26] all those great views and I think, you
know, aside from this question that
[1:31:30] we've been noodling over of the parapet,
that this is overall an excellent
[1:31:33] project that's going to add value to
this historic home.
[1:31:42] » I could go with that.
[1:31:45] » I I could as well.
So, given that we've discussed um
[1:31:51] what essentially be a conditional
approval uh pending the alteration of
[1:31:55] the uh design to remove the parapet as
it uh is attached to the pitched garage
[1:32:01] roof,
prior to doing that, I would just ask
[1:32:04] the applicant, is that is that a
condition that is okay or would you
[1:32:08] prefer a different sort of re-studying
in that opportunity or would you be okay
[1:32:12] with what we've proposed?
>> I would be okay with the
[1:32:16] but I would not be
happy
[1:32:18] paying much more than the standard
garage.
[1:32:21] But, you know, I really
I really need
[1:32:24] to enjoy the privacy that
we are afforded by that
[1:32:28] wall.
[1:32:32] » Which is completely understandable and
thank you for being amenable.
[1:32:37] » Thank you. This board really it exists
at the intersection between, you know,
[1:32:42] public myth of the historic district and
private ownership and ownership rights.
[1:32:46] So, it's not popular what we do up here
sometimes.
[1:32:50] The mayor in his wisdom has appointed a
diversity of people up here with a
[1:32:54] diversity of opinions. So, there might
be some do not approves. Um, take it as
[1:32:59] a just a vote of confidence in your
amazingly wonderful historic house and
[1:33:04] um, just that we're just balancing the
needs of the historic district and
[1:33:08] private ownership. So, it's kind of a
struggle, but thank you.
[1:33:14] » I think I'd also be remiss if I didn't
say something positive about our fellow
[1:33:17] board member and how nice it is to get a
decent set of drawings.
[1:33:26] And an original thought, those are
contrary to what the public might
[1:33:29] believe, innovative architecture and
different ideas are very much welcome
[1:33:35] and had we not had a lot of those
throughout our history, we wouldn't have
[1:33:39] such a cool town.
[1:33:46] Well, I might go ahead
even though it's somewhat unconventional
[1:33:50] for the chair to make a motion, but
since I was sort of the one who was
[1:33:52] articulating it earlier, I'll go ahead
and do it this time. Um,
[1:33:57] I make a motion to approve on the
condition that the parapet be removed
[1:34:03] from that the parapet be removed from
the length of the garage itself,
[1:34:08] which does not include the deck.
[1:34:13] » I'll second.
[1:34:17] » So, we've got a motion and a second.
Um
[1:34:20] » Do we want to roll call this one?
>> I think we should roll call this one.
[1:34:23] » Okay. Chris Cody?
>> Approve.
[1:34:25] » Happy Smith?
>> Do not approve.
[1:34:27] » Bill Jewel?
>> Approve.
[1:34:30] » Jared Anderson?
>> Approve.
[1:34:32] » Jed Skillman?
>> Approve.
[1:34:36] » Thank you very much.
[1:34:40] All right. On with the next, Brenda.
>> All right. Next up is 745 West 3rd
[1:34:45] Street. This is a contributing structure
in the Folk Victorian style built in
[1:34:49] 1890. It is zoned historic district
residential, and this is a request to
[1:34:54] open the enclosed windows on the back
porch.
[1:34:59] » Thank you.
>> Thank you. Yes, we're looking at this
[1:35:04] back porch which is not original to the
house. The the foundation is not the
[1:35:07] same. There's actually a window inside
uh between the basement and the
[1:35:12] the the the bottom of the porch here.
Uh the porch is basically an
[1:35:16] interstitial space to the house itself.
Um
[1:35:21] Originally, I not originally, but I
guess when they built this porch, I
[1:35:26] believe they had windows there, but you
can see that they've covered them up now
[1:35:29] with
the vinyl siding.
[1:35:32] Uh we're looking at uh adding
four windows there.
[1:35:37] And what we'd like to do is use uh some
repurposed materials.
[1:35:42] Uh these are 22-in
by I believe 7-ft. Uh and they actually
[1:35:48] have safety glass in them, so there's no
issue as far as, you know, being too
[1:35:51] close to the floor. It's probably a lot
safer than a lot of the other
[1:35:55] uh windows that we have currently in the
uh
[1:35:59] in the town that that that are that long
uh
[1:36:02] So I actually have a sample of it there.
You can't tell but it has the like the
[1:36:05] chicken wire. It's laminated and has the
chicken wire in between it.
[1:36:09] Uh
it's not conditioned in any way. It's
[1:36:12] not heated or cooled. It's just uh
We want to open that back up so it looks
[1:36:18] better. And we also want to replace the
Look at the replacing the the door.
[1:36:22] That's just a metal
door from the uh you know the '80s uh
[1:36:25] insulated metal door.
And and rebuild the uh steps going up to
[1:36:30] it.
Uh in addition to that we are going to
[1:36:34] finish off with a
uh cement board either Hardy or
[1:36:38] uh some something uh
Menards doesn't carry Hardy. They have
[1:36:42] another brand.
But uh we're looking at continuing the
[1:36:46] uh
the horizontal siding when we replace
[1:36:49] pull that off and replace it. It's uh
currently aluminum siding on it.
[1:36:55] » Do you have four of them that are alike?
>> Four Four of them?
[1:36:59] » Yeah.
>> Yes. Yeah, they're they're four exactly
[1:37:02] the same size. They actually have five
of them but I can only fit four in
[1:37:05] there.
>> Are you going to be restoring them?
[1:37:07] » Yes.
>> Will the windows be openable?
[1:37:12] » No.
>> So they're not going to be like
[1:37:14] casements and swing out.
>> No. No, not at all. They're they're just
[1:37:17] a fixed pane uh
uh
[1:37:20] uh
windows, yeah.
[1:37:22] They're actually metal
clad wood.
[1:37:27] » Mhm.
[1:37:29] That's a metal clad?
>> Yes.
[1:37:35] It doesn't doesn't look like it from
there but
[1:37:38] » It doesn't.
Is it metal on the other side?
[1:37:41] » Yes.
>> Am I missing Yeah, I'm missing
[1:37:43] something. Okay.
>> So you're going to put four of those
[1:37:47] door door window doors
in the on the back. Okay.
[1:37:51] » Yes.
And that's just old attic cuz it's uh
[1:37:54] you know, it's it's really dark in there
now.
[1:37:56] » Uh-huh.
>> You know, it's it's a
[1:37:58] the uh porch is also about 5-ft deep.
So, we're just looking for a place to
[1:38:03] you know, sit on the back porch and be
able to have it opened up to the the
[1:38:06] backyard there.
>> Since this is not the original historic
[1:38:09] building itself, you know, we have much
more leniency, much more flexibility.
[1:38:13] So, it seems like a nice improvement.
>> Yeah, I I don't know when it was added.
[1:38:17] Place definitely was poured concrete on
the uh
[1:38:22] on the footers and uh then they built on
top of that. Like I said, and the only
[1:38:27] reason I knew that was
you know, you have the a window right
[1:38:31] now. There's a window between the porch
underneath it and the house itself,
[1:38:35] which obviously would have been
discovered up when they put the porch
[1:38:37] on.
[1:38:40] » Mr. Hayne, you must be pretty excited
about this. This is kind of nice to to
[1:38:43] use existing material and repurpose.
>> Yeah, exa- exactly.
[1:38:48] And uh
you know, obviously since it's not
[1:38:53] heated or cooled, you know,
the energy factor's not not not an issue
[1:38:57] with it.
[1:39:00] » Are there any other questions for the
applicant?
[1:39:05] Thank you. Is there any public comment?
[1:39:08] » Well, that's an old picture you have of
our house. So, you don't have a newer
[1:39:11] one?
>> Yeah, our survey pictures have not been
[1:39:15] updated yet.
>> Well, let's let's move on to board
[1:39:18] deliberation. I agree with what everyone
said. I think this is a fantastic
[1:39:21] project. It's wonderful to see and I'd
be ready to entertain a motion.
[1:39:31] » I move the Madison Historic District
Board of Review
[1:39:34] approve the porch modifications with the
repurposed windows at
[1:39:40] 745 West 3rd Street as proposed by the
applicant.
[1:39:44] » I will second that motion.
>> All in favor?
[1:39:48] » I.
>> I.
[1:39:49] » Any opposed?
Hearing none. Thank you.
[1:39:53] » Congratulations.
[1:40:00] » I'm sorry. I don't know why that address
isn't correct. That isn't correct. Our
[1:40:04] next one is 215 West Main Street.
Um
[1:40:10] Let's see.
It's still there in the app. Okay.
[1:40:13] Um this is a contributing and
individually eligible structure um in
[1:40:17] the Federal and Italianate styles built
in 1830 zoned Central Business District
[1:40:23] and this request is to build an addition
to accommodate extra kitchen space for a
[1:40:28] bakery.
[1:40:32] » Hello. My name is Gabriella Bogdan and I
bought 215 West Main a couple of months
[1:40:37] ago
and uh with the intent of using the
[1:40:40] space as a bakery.
Um
[1:40:45] I think it's maybe a little bit small to
see, but the yellow outline is the
[1:40:49] current footprint and there is um at the
front of Main Street, the building uh my
[1:40:57] building touches the next building next
to it. They're a lot line. But then for
[1:41:02] the remainder of the lot, it is
um a tiny little alleyway that is
[1:41:09] grass
and there is a gate or was a gate there.
[1:41:14] So, we are in the process of uncovering
um some of the natural uh original
[1:41:20] materials underneath um the exterior and
working on uh some interior
[1:41:27] renovations as well. And so, um we do
plan to put the gate back, but the
[1:41:34] um red slashes are sort of the
extension. So, there is a um
[1:41:41] non-original HVAC
building um kind of part of that red
[1:41:47] space right now um that had some the
structure of that HVAC building had some
[1:41:53] uh roof and structural damage, so it
needs to be replaced anyway.
[1:41:58] The actual HVAC unit itself needs to be
replaced as well. So, rather than just
[1:42:04] replacing just the few square feet, um
we would like to extend um partway
[1:42:11] through the alley so that I can add a
little bit more space to accommodate the
[1:42:15] future use of the building.
And then um as I mentioned, we are going
[1:42:20] to rebuild the gate.
Um and that addition actually will not
[1:42:25] be visible from any
views.
[1:42:34] » Thank you very much. Are there any
questions for the applicant from the
[1:42:36] board?
>> Glad to hear a bakery's coming in.
[1:42:41] Um so, the building that's yellow,
>> Mhm.
[1:42:44] » all the way to the back, is that is that
all going to be bakery space?
[1:42:49] » It is not all going to be bakery space.
There is going to be a short-term rental
[1:42:53] in the back, which has been approved
through zoning already.
[1:42:56] » Okay.
I have a question for staff. So, had
[1:43:00] they built the gate first, would this be
publicly viewable from the public
[1:43:04] right-of-way?
>> No.
[1:43:05] » No. So, it wouldn't even be in our
purview had they done the gate first.
[1:43:08] » Yes.
>> And when the gate's done, it won't be in
[1:43:11] our purview again.
>> Yes.
[1:43:13] » Okay.
>> Uh-huh.
[1:43:14] » We're kind of in a an interesting window
here.
[1:43:18] » Well, that's that's uh
a helpful clarification.
[1:43:22] I'll just say to the applicant,
congratulations on buying a wonderful
[1:43:25] historic building.
>> Mhm.
[1:43:27] I'm very excited about the project.
>> The back of it looks like it's air
[1:43:31] conditioned pretty well.
Along that way
[1:43:37] » is completely open to your building, it
looks like. So
[1:43:39] » Yes.
[1:43:42] » Are there any other questions from the
board for the applicant?
[1:43:46] Thank you. Is there any public comment?
[1:43:49] Let's move on to board deliver- Oh, we
do have a public comment.
[1:43:55] » Hi, my name is Jackie Fraser and I work
at the Tello's.
[1:43:59] My question is, are you going back to
the end of this driveway?
[1:44:03] » No.
>> Do you see the Or where's the gate?
[1:44:06] » The gate is going to go exactly where it
is now, at the back of the structure.
[1:44:09] Can you see that? She drew it up a
little bit.
[1:44:12] So, the old gate that was there, we just
removed it because it was falling down.
[1:44:17] So, we're just going to put the
new gate back where the old gate was.
[1:44:21] » My only concern is
[1:44:25] are we going to be able to get our
trucks out of there?
[1:44:28] » Should be. No change.
>> There's no change in that part.
[1:44:31] » Not at all. We're not extending the
building out.
[1:44:35] » That's what I wanted to
[1:44:39] » Thank you. Is there any other public
comment?
[1:44:43] I'll thank you the applicant for
answering that question, resolving that.
[1:44:46] Um moving on to board deliberation.
Uh
[1:44:49] this is
minimally within our purview for a very
[1:44:53] temporary amount of time and it's going
to enable
[1:44:56] uh a business on Main Street.
So, I for one am in complete support of
[1:45:00] this.
>> I feel the same way.
[1:45:03] 100%
>> I agree.
[1:45:05] » I agree. I also just want to say I
really appreciate the thoughtfulness in
[1:45:10] your description of what you're doing.
We've noticed that you
[1:45:13] exposed the wood on the side that faces
Comfort Station and here you say you
[1:45:18] were going to be attempting to restore
that and you know, patch where you can.
[1:45:22] Thank you. Thank you so much for doing
that. A lot of people in town are
[1:45:25] covering up the old wood siding and it
it you know that you're appreciating it
[1:45:30] and keeping it. That's just a wonderful
thing. Thank you so much for that and
[1:45:33] the other careful things you're doing
with this really old 1830 building. It's
[1:45:37] just a fabulous building. So,
congratulations.
[1:45:47] » Well, would someone like to make a
motion?
[1:45:50] » I would.
I move that the Madison HDR accept the
[1:45:55] application from Gabriella Bogdan at 215
West Main for an addition onto the back
[1:46:01] of the building for a bakery.
>> Do you have a second?
[1:46:05] » I second.
>> All those in favor?
[1:46:08] » I.
>> I.
[1:46:09] » Any opposed?
Hearing none.
[1:46:12] Thank you.
[1:46:18] » Okay, next is 117 West Main Street. This
is another contributing and individually
[1:46:25] eligible structure in the federal and
Italianate style built in 1850. Zone
[1:46:30] central business district
and this is a request to add a new door
[1:46:34] on the west facade to provide proper ADA
compliant entrance to the office.
[1:46:41] » Good evening. I'm Chad Lewis. I
purchased 117 West Main Street about a
[1:46:45] year and a half ago. Um it's at the
opposite block here of city hall. It has
[1:46:51] operated an Edward Jones financial
services office for over 45 years.
[1:46:57] Um and
Edward Jones as a corporation would not
[1:47:02] renew the lease unless we made the
building ADA compliant for clients and
[1:47:08] the public.
Um so
[1:47:11] we have a 4-in step snap into the
building. Um we did not want to put a
[1:47:17] ramp on Main Street as there's no other
ramps um
[1:47:22] out on Main Street, so we did not want
to do that. So, our alternative was to
[1:47:27] build a,
um, a new door
[1:47:29] on the west side of the building and
have a small ramp that would make this
[1:47:34] ADA compliant.
[1:47:39] » Thank you. Does the board have any
questions for the applicant?
[1:47:42] » Is Edward Jones is out of the building
now? They're gone, right?
[1:47:46] » No, it we're currently
remodeling to make it ADA compliant so
[1:47:51] we can stay.
We service a lot of families that live
[1:47:55] downtown and would like to remain
downtown. Edward Jones would not let us
[1:48:00] stay there if we did not make it ADA
compliant.
[1:48:04] So, we're in the process of trying to do
so.
[1:48:06] » Where would the ramp go?
>> Where?
[1:48:09] » Where is it? Interior of the door? Do
you open the door and then go up a ramp?
[1:48:13] Is that it or
>> No, it would be on the sidewalk.
[1:48:17] » On the sidewalk there?
>> west, yeah.
[1:48:19] » So, you come out what, about 3 ft with
your ramp? About that kind of width for
[1:48:23] wheelchair access?
>> ADA compliant needs to be a 4-ft ramp.
[1:48:27] » Four
Has to be 4 ft wide.
[1:48:32] Um
[1:48:34] » How
did you say that you looked into putting
[1:48:38] it right on Main Street or you didn't
want to put it on Main Street cuz
[1:48:40] there's no other ramps?
Did you look into what it would have
[1:48:44] looked like on Main Street? Like how far
out it would have had to come?
[1:48:49] Like how far extended onto the Main
Street sidewalk?
[1:48:53] » Like how wide or how long?
>> How long?
[1:48:56] » Right.
[1:48:59] We we did look at it.
>> Yeah, they they actually I I I think
[1:49:02] Edward Jones looked at that prior to me
being involved, but basically your
[1:49:06] landing
>> say your name for the record just so we
[1:49:08] have
>> Brian Martin, 104 Sycamore Street.
[1:49:10] Um
It it it has to do with, um,
[1:49:14] you know, with your egress and direction
of travel. So, that landing outside of
[1:49:17] the door has to be 5 ft by 5 ft clear.
It's a It's a 5 ft diameter circle for a
[1:49:23] wheelchair
movement. It's the the landing is
[1:49:26] different than than the actual ramp. The
ramp can be smaller. The ramp can be
[1:49:29] down to almost 36 in between handrails.
But, it would be it would be a
[1:49:34] substantial impact on that sidewalk. 5
ft landing plus additional handrail
[1:49:38] around because you can't have that
obstruction. So, it would be a
[1:49:41] tremendous impact on on Main Street for
sure.
[1:49:44] » So, you're saying 5 ft kind of onto the
sidewalk of Main Street.
[1:49:48] » 5 ft 5 ft plus
>> Plus, and then you have a hand Then you
[1:49:51] have cuz I was looking at the Girls Inc.
building
[1:49:54] and that one um is a pretty substantial
structure. Uh that is a beautiful brick
[1:49:59] wall you're cutting into. I know you're
already aware of this. I'm not telling
[1:50:03] you anything. Um and it's not been
altered in any way. A lot of our brick
[1:50:06] walls have had previous doors and
windows, but this one's just a pristine
[1:50:11] beautiful brick wall. So, that's a
painful thing. So,
[1:50:16] um Edward Jones made this conditional
upon their staying. They are going if we
[1:50:19] don't make it ADA compliant. Is that
correct?
[1:50:22] » Yeah, I mean I think
certainly the compliance and any ADA
[1:50:26] responsibility is important for our city
as it as we grow we go we sure as we
[1:50:31] grow regardless.
>> Yeah.
[1:50:32] » Um but no, I really think it's it's uh I
mean call the lesser of two evils. I
[1:50:37] mean I don't I don't I think we can be
accommodating as we can. Um again, you
[1:50:42] know, location location is specific to
the floor plan on the inside. You know,
[1:50:47] based on cuz again the the ADA
responsibility is not just getting
[1:50:51] someone in the door, but it's also
throughout the entire office. So, that
[1:50:54] front say that front reception area
needs, you know, seating and needs desk
[1:51:00] space that that can accommodate, you
know, all capacities. So,
[1:51:04] again, it's really kind of dictated just
based on ADA compliance throughout
[1:51:08] through.
>> That's why the door is where it is.
[1:51:10] » Yes. Up towards the front. Okay. Okay.
Looks like Sounds like a lot of thought
[1:51:15] has gone into this and you have really
thoroughly explored the option that
[1:51:18] wouldn't have cut into the brick wall,
so I appreciate that. Thank you.
[1:51:21] » also working with
working with Tony Steinhart and Chris
[1:51:25] Hale on
modifying
[1:51:28] the sidewalk
cuz the
[1:51:30] Edward Jones
office had sent a uh
[1:51:34] sent this design
but extending the ramp down the
[1:51:38] sidewalk, which would have again been
quite a uh
[1:51:42] an obstruction of sorts, you know,
visual if nothing else. So, that
[1:51:46] sidewalk is in terrible shape, curb is
in terrible shape. So, we've got our
[1:51:50] initial approval to be able to modify
that. Technically, what you'd call 5-ft
[1:51:54] landing out that door and then and then
still be compliant within the grade on
[1:51:58] the sidewalk, too. Basically, there'll
be there'll be
[1:52:02] next to nothing there as far as, you
know, the sidewalk grade for the most
[1:52:05] part to be compliant with ADA
responsibility, but it won't be an
[1:52:08] extended version of a ramp, which is
what was originally
[1:52:11] proposed, anyway. So.
>> Could you put a ramp inside? Just go in
[1:52:16] this door and start up
>> it's all it it affects the the floor
[1:52:20] space. You know, you I mean, what comes
up time and again on the start board is
[1:52:23] limited capacity on any uh you know,
these these narrow lots. It's the same
[1:52:26] concept in there as far as his business.
It it it affects the use of that space
[1:52:31] so much inside that And again, they
looked at that on the
[1:52:34] first entry door.
>> We did look at that.
[1:52:37] » How much do you have to rise up from the
street?
[1:52:40] » It's from the sidewalk. It's about 4 in.
>> 4 in?
[1:52:43] » It has to do with It has to do with so
so
[1:52:46] travel is important as far as how you
come into it, you know, you go through a
[1:52:50] door, you have to have a landing space
on the outside. You know, your your your
[1:52:54] ramp is specific to your slope. You have
to have a landing space on the inside.
[1:52:57] So, it really takes up a lot more room
than just getting through the door.
[1:53:01] » We had a question here uh before this
board
[1:53:05] 4 or 5 months ago, historic building and
involved
[1:53:11] significant alteration of a
gem of a historic building for ADA
[1:53:18] compliance.
And uh
[1:53:22] uh
after it passed
[1:53:25] uh
I went home
[1:53:28] and did a search on ADA compliance
for historic buildings, which this one
[1:53:34] is. There are seven clauses that
Now, of course, that's federal. That's
[1:53:40] not Edward Jones. Edward Jones wants us
in, you're not doing this because of
[1:53:46] uh
a federal
[1:53:49] ADA requirements because there are are
several
[1:53:53] classifications of of I think it was
seven
[1:53:57] ADA requirements that you wouldn't have
to do this.
[1:54:00] So, first off, to be clear, this is
strictly for Edward Jones, right?
[1:54:05] Doesn't have anything to do with anybody
coming out of Washington, D.C. because
[1:54:09] this building is not ADA requirement
now, and the ADA has been around for
[1:54:15] over 30 years. So,
uh
[1:54:18] this is this is
all
[1:54:22] uh
uh
[1:54:24] directed from
up the corporate ladder, correct?
[1:54:28] » Chad, would you mind if I rephrase your
question cuz I had the same one, but
[1:54:31] wanted to pose it a little bit more
directly. Had have there been any
[1:54:34] conversations with Edward Jones about
the fact that there are ADA waivers
[1:54:38] available for historic buildings and
that you do not need to comply with the
[1:54:42] ADA in a building like this?
>> Thank you, Chris.
[1:54:46] » Yes, there have been discussions and
they wanted ADA compliance.
[1:54:52] » I understand that sometimes that can be
a condition of your insurance policy, so
[1:54:55] there are other legitimate
considerations, but I really appreciate
[1:54:59] you bringing that up, Chad, because ADA
waivers are such an important tool in
[1:55:03] communities like ours to allow these
historic buildings to remain in service
[1:55:07] without having to chop them all up to
put ramps and all this other stuff
[1:55:10] everywhere. Sometimes you just can't.
You know, you've got a chance here to
[1:55:14] make it work, but sometimes you just
can't.
[1:55:16] » Cuz I looked at it and uh
it's about a 4-ft
[1:55:21] step up to get in the front door.
>> 4 in
[1:55:25] » 4 in I mean, excuse me, 4 in.
Um
[1:55:29] that whole front of the building is not
original. That was put on sometime in
[1:55:34] the '70s or '80s. So,
we got some room to work here.
[1:55:39] Um
and you also are redesigning the whole
[1:55:44] inside of the store anyways, right?
Yes.
[1:55:48] » complete. It's it's a it's a
modification of of hallway
[1:55:52] » Okay.
>> for accessibility reasons.
[1:55:53] » Okay.
How about removing the stone sill that
[1:55:58] you have to go up
and you put the ramp in there and you
[1:56:02] either put a door
or recess the door somewhat like they do
[1:56:08] at the um
What's the Gallery 21?
[1:56:14] » We can I think we can talk about this
during the board deliberation about
[1:56:17] design changes we might be interested
in. Um
[1:56:21] You know, I don't I don't want to jump
jump the gun on those conversations.
[1:56:24] Does anyone have any questions for the
applicant?
[1:56:27] » I have a question for city staff. So,
is there
[1:56:35] is the street department going to widen
the sidewalk?
[1:56:39] » Um I don't believe they have the full
plans for for what they're doing there
[1:56:44] yet. Um that has been a discussion, but
I don't know if that has been finalized.
[1:56:49] » So, I guess just to clarify, what is the
actual width of the ramp that will be
[1:56:53] placed there?
>> So, so technically there's there's
[1:56:56] really no ramp per se. It's the It's the
the landing is the the the area of of
[1:57:01] major concern as far as how much space
it takes up. So, technically
[1:57:06] a flat ramp out of that lane out of that
doorway, centered on the doorway, is the
[1:57:12] first step and then transitioning grade
back to proper slope to the sidewalk,
[1:57:16] which we have some modification we can
do
[1:57:19] on the brick pavers. But, again,
uh Chris and Tony both have been on site
[1:57:23] a couple different times discussing
when basically we can kind of lead that
[1:57:27] charge as far as get our our um
our landing and our proper slope in and
[1:57:32] then all the sidewalk kind of come comes
back to that. Because, again, the the
[1:57:35] sidewalk is in terrible shape to the
south, which is really probably the
[1:57:39] the major issue of of transition.
Otherwise, we'll be compliant with
[1:57:42] everything else ramped to the west and
to the north.
[1:57:45] » Okay.
All right. Thank you. Are there any
[1:57:48] other questions from the board?
>> I think the one that the comment about
[1:57:53] trying to go in the front, you also have
to remember
[1:57:56] the requirement of width of the doorway.
Not only has the door, but you also have
[1:57:59] clearance on each side of the door. And
even though you say that's not an
[1:58:03] original storefront, which I understand,
there's still a steel there's a steel
[1:58:06] and/or cast column
just inside to the right of that door
[1:58:09] that's supporting that cast lintel
that's still probably a carryover from
[1:58:13] the original.
>> Okay.
[1:58:14] » So,
that's a tremendous modification of
[1:58:17] making that opening compliant. Cuz you
can't If If If If you walk in that door,
[1:58:22] you know, within inches there's a
there's a cast column to your right and
[1:58:25] then there's a sidewalk to your left.
And you need you need much more
[1:58:28] clearance than that to to make that
possible. So,
[1:58:31] » Thank you.
>> into that.
[1:58:32] » You can't widen that door because of
that cast iron support.
[1:58:36] » One of the reasons, yes. Clearance on
the sidewalk coming into the left is
[1:58:39] also another reason.
>> Yeah.
[1:58:42] » Multiple reasons. And again,
transitioning that ramp inside, it it's
[1:58:46] how it affects it's a small office to be
in, so how it affects the floor space in
[1:58:49] there is also just doesn't it's it just
doesn't work really well.
[1:58:53] » Mhm.
Thank you for those clarifications. Are
[1:58:56] there any additional questions from the
board?
[1:59:00] Is there any public comment?
[1:59:04] All right, thank you. We'll move on to
board deliberation. Um
[1:59:09] I think it's unfortunate that uh the
long-term tenant is unwilling to seek
[1:59:15] just an ADA uh waiver here.
But uh they are a very long-term tenant.
[1:59:21] We do want to keep our businesses on
Main Street. And I think that this is a
[1:59:25] reasonable accommodation. Um I for one,
just to comment on the conversation that
[1:59:31] sort of arose, uh would never support a
ramp on Main Street. I see the
[1:59:36] streetscape of Main Street as sacrosanct
and one of the most important aspects of
[1:59:41] our historic district. So, you know, if
this was a mid-block building, I think
[1:59:45] I'd be telling him to do it in the rear.
I think they're fortunate that they
[1:59:48] happen to be at the end and could just
do it on the side. Um
[1:59:53] and I you know, I I don't see how they
could accomplish the goal that they have
[1:59:58] any other way.
[2:00:01] » I uh
I I agree with everything you're saying,
[2:00:05] Chris. I I am
I still am just slightly concerned about
[2:00:11] digging into the side of the building
solely because
[2:00:14] uh the city did a study in 2022 that
specified that this building
[2:00:20] uh is one of only 134 significant
structures in the historic district. Um
[2:00:27] and that was approved on by city council
and and the mayor's office and whatnot.
[2:00:32] Um
it does concern me doing new openings
[2:00:36] just because we typically are not
supposed to do that on a building that
[2:00:41] is on the same list at, you believe it
or not, as
[2:00:45] the Linier, the Shrewsbury Windle. uh
all of these other important properties.
[2:00:50] But,
I also understand that
[2:00:56] we're kind of in a tough a tough spot
here cuz obviously we don't want Edward
[2:01:00] Jones to leave downtown.
Um so,
[2:01:04] that's kind of where I I'm I'm torn.
[2:01:09] » Yeah, I think just to be clear, we're
not evaluating this in any way, shape,
[2:01:12] or form based on our desire to not have
or to have Edward Jones on our main
[2:01:16] street. This is purely about the
building and whether this complies with
[2:01:20] the guidelines. And
you are correct that the guidelines
[2:01:23] generally frown upon the creation of new
openings, um but they are just
[2:01:27] guidelines.
[2:01:32] » I'm with Jared um on this. Really don't
want to
[2:01:37] put a new opening in such a beautiful
brick wall. But, um I do like the idea
[2:01:42] that we're going to have almost the best
possible scenario for creating an ADA
[2:01:47] compliant entrance. We have one of the
most wonderful historically
[2:01:51] um sensitive contractors in town working
the project in Brian Martin. You know,
[2:01:57] we have a long-term tenant. You know, I
think there's worthy goals here and
[2:02:01] maybe it's a good place for an
exception. But, yeah, I really hate
[2:02:05] busting into that brick wall.
[2:02:10] » I can't support
this.
[2:02:13] So, um
[2:02:16] I think uh
discussion with
[2:02:21] upper management of Edward Jones
letting them know it's a historic
[2:02:26] building. What did we say? 135 of these
of the top-tier buildings
[2:02:32] of of the couple thousand that we have
in downtown Madison.
[2:02:37] Um
[2:02:41] um
[2:02:44] And they have been there so long
there had to have been some
[2:02:49] precipitating
incident
[2:02:53] somewhere
uh for them to come make this decision.
[2:02:57] What's what happened? You know, why did
this happen? Unless it's just a
[2:03:01] corporate uh policy
in which case they can be flexible, too.
[2:03:10] » Yeah, I uh
I we have to rely upon the
[2:03:14] representation of the applicant that
they did do
[2:03:18] what they could to
try and have Edward Jones make an
[2:03:23] exception from their corporate policy.
And I very much appreciated their
[2:03:27] response to to that specific question
that we had.
[2:03:31] I don't think it's within our power to
compel a applicant to attempt to
[2:03:38] address something that with their
tenants with the tenants' needs and the
[2:03:41] tenants' policies. I think all that
we're willing we're able to look at are
[2:03:45] the physical alterations which um
you have the creation of a new opening
[2:03:51] which is not desirable. You have ADA
compliance for this building, which is
[2:03:57] desirable, although perhaps unnecessary.
Um
[2:04:02] it's uh it's a it's a tough call, and
obviously I think there's going to be a
[2:04:05] split vote here.
[2:04:11] Would anyone like to make a motion one
way or the other?
[2:04:18] » I move that the Madison Historic
District Board of Review approve the the
[2:04:23] ADA modification at 117 West Main
Street.
[2:04:28] Um
uh as proposed um
[2:04:33] by the uh by the owner and by the
contractor here.
[2:04:38] » We have a motion. We have a second?
>> I second the motion.
[2:04:43] » Yeah, let's do a roll call vote. Brenna?
>> Chris Cody?
[2:04:46] » Approve.
>> Happy Smith?
[2:04:48] » Approve.
>> Bill Jewel?
[2:04:49] » Approve.
>> Jared Anderson?
[2:04:53] » Approve.
>> Jed Skillman?
[2:04:55] » No.
[2:04:58] » Well, thank you very much. And just also
want to note to my fellow board members,
[2:05:02] I thought that was a really good
conversation about a very difficult
[2:05:05] application for a lot of ways. We've had
some tough ones tonight, guys.
[2:05:14] Okay, Brenna.
>> Okay.
[2:05:16] Um our last application tonight is 1020
East 1st Street. This is currently an
[2:05:21] empty lot. It is zoned historic district
residential.
[2:05:25] And um this request is to build a new
residential structure on this vacant
[2:05:29] lot.
>> Thank you. Is the applicant here?
[2:05:42] Jerry Bryner?
>> My name is Ed Demery.
[2:05:46] » Owner, builder.
>> Good evening, gentlemen.
[2:05:53] Um is there anything you'd like to tell
us about your project?
[2:05:57] » Yes.
Similar to the other homes in the
[2:06:00] location as far as
footprint.
[2:06:05] And
the basement with stone.
[2:06:09] We
can burn the wood siding, which is a
[2:06:12] tongue and groove,
and it's manufactured locally
[2:06:16] by this company.
He has built somewhere in the
[2:06:19] neighborhood of 200 homes. This is
It's sticked up like any other home.
[2:06:24] It's just got this really nice Eastern
pine wood
[2:06:27] that is horizontally laid.
[2:06:31] It holds up very well. It's going to be
treated.
[2:06:56] » Thank you. Are there any questions from
the board?
[2:06:58] » Could you describe the siding a little
bit better? I'm still a little little
[2:07:02] fuzzy on that.
>> The siding is an eastern white pine and
[2:07:05] it's laid horizontally with a tongue and
a male and female tongue and groove
[2:07:09] engagement.
>> Mhm.
[2:07:11] » It's a common old world club.
>> Okay. The corners, kind of hard to tell
[2:07:17] there, are you log style corners,
overlap kind of?
[2:07:20] » That is correct, dovetail style.
>> That could be done either way. You know,
[2:07:26] I had two options and I I I thought it
was suitable. I mean, it's stained down.
[2:07:35] » So, are the boards uh kind of rounded
like a log cabin look?
[2:07:39] » Uh no, ma'am. They are uh horizontal
similar to your other architecture like
[2:07:43] the previous picture you showed for the
bakery.
[2:07:47] Uh it's a horizontal and it's a flat
siding.
[2:07:51] » You don't have a photograph?
>> Uh we have a
[2:07:55] We have a
full size brand of this. I mean, it's
[2:07:58] out in the car.
>> Oh, okay. Well, maybe let's see how it
[2:08:02] goes here. So, yeah.
Okay.
[2:08:05] » Are there any other questions from board
members for the applicant?
[2:08:10] Thank Thank you. Is there any public
comment?
[2:08:14] Hearing none, we'll move on to the board
deliberation. Um I had the same
[2:08:18] question. I think one of the sheets
actually says log cabin on it. So, I was
[2:08:21] wondering about the profile of that
siding.
[2:08:24] Um I'm relieved to hear that it's a flat
profile and it sounds like a high
[2:08:27] quality um plan for the siding.
>> Yeah, and the inside's
[2:08:33] not going to
>> I'm sorry, we're we've got board
[2:08:35] deliberation now, so we got to
We might ask you another question, but
[2:08:40] um
How does everyone else feel?
[2:08:45] » Um I'm um
So everybody loves downtown Madison and
[2:08:50] I think one of the reasons we like it is
because it has this cohesiveness. It was
[2:08:54] built, you know, between 1830 and 1870
and we got like the same house repeated
[2:08:58] all over the place, so there's this real
continuity. And when you put something
[2:09:02] in that doesn't go with everything
around it, it kind of has a jarring
[2:09:06] effect. So that's the only thing I'm
worried about here. You have really a
[2:09:10] bunch of houses over there that look
very similar. They're board and batten,
[2:09:14] white painted with faux um veneer um
like stone or brick on the lower story,
[2:09:19] which I understand you are having here.
And then the top, but every building
[2:09:24] over there is sort of wide board plank
siding, doesn't have the corner
[2:09:29] detailing There. There it is right
there. The board and batten look. So
[2:09:33] they're all the same over there. So then
if you build one that looks different,
[2:09:36] then everybody wants their house to look
different. I do understand that. But if
[2:09:41] you build one thing that looks different
in a whole cluster of
[2:09:44] I think it's about six or seven or eight
houses now over there. It's going to
[2:09:48] kind of
stand out. I guess it can stand out good
[2:09:50] or it can maybe stand out like whoa,
what's that?
[2:09:54] Right. So that's maybe a concern here is
this the compatibility and the the sort
[2:09:59] of a fabric over there of things that
fit in with each other.
[2:10:03] » Corners and all.
>> Well,
[2:10:06] Happy, I think you're exactly right
about a new uh
[2:10:11] design typology emerging over on this
far east side of town, but I do have to
[2:10:15] take issue with one thing that you said
about Madison being built between 1830
[2:10:19] and the 1870s. I live in a 1909 house
that I love.
[2:10:25] There are many
different different types of buildings
[2:10:29] in Madison. That's one of the strengths
of our historic district is its
[2:10:32] diversity and
I for one am always a fan of any attempt
[2:10:37] to make something special and to make it
different and to put in a little bit
[2:10:41] extra effort towards that end.
[2:10:47] » And there are there are a number of
these homes throughout
[2:10:50] » I'm sorry. We're just doing the board
deliberation.
[2:10:53] You've already made your case, sir, and
you've done it you in my mind you've
[2:10:56] done it well, but I think we need to um
keep this to the board.
[2:11:01] Does anyone have any other comments? Um
and if not, does any Would anyone like
[2:11:05] to make a motion?
[2:11:13] » I'm still concerned about the siding.
>> What are your concerns? I'd love to hear
[2:11:18] them.
>> As far as I know, we have one log house
[2:11:22] in town and it's over on Presbyterian
over here and it's uh
[2:11:25] it's an old style, you know, like you
would see anywhere in the uh out in the
[2:11:29] country built 150 years ago.
Um
[2:11:33] I think that we need to be
along the lines of uh what the other
[2:11:39] buildings are looking at.
Something similar to that.
[2:11:43] Not really have something stand out.
Right.
[2:11:49] » I'm sorry. I get we this is our we got
to talk right now. We will we will
[2:11:53] directly ask you a question um
if necessary.
[2:11:57] So, would I you know, having just just
asked the gentleman to refrain, I was
[2:12:03] going to make the exact same point that
he just did that I think that this is
[2:12:05] now
flat tongue and groove siding as opposed
[2:12:08] to anything resembling a log.
I came in very worried about it
[2:12:12] potentially having a rounder profile and
reading like a log cabin.
[2:12:17] But you know, you know materials better
than than I think any of us up here,
[2:12:20] Bill. So, if you have concerns, is it
is it the
[2:12:25] fact that it would just be, you know,
what what about the siding concerns you
[2:12:28] knowing that it's a flat
>> My main concern would be corners. You
[2:12:31] know, when you have a log siding, you
usually have an overlap kind of a, you
[2:12:35] know, alternate overlap. If you're going
to have straight corners on it, I can go
[2:12:39] with that. I don't have a problem. I
just don't want to see a log cabin, a
[2:12:43] fake log cabin look in that house.
But I I don't, you know, after looking
[2:12:48] at your siding a little bit more, I
don't think that that would give that
[2:12:51] impression.
>> So, I'll ask the applicant to clarify.
[2:12:55] The corners, you said you could do it in
one way where they would sort of
[2:12:59] Yeah, where they
um
[2:13:01] Would you mind responding to
uh board member Jewels' concern about
[2:13:06] the corners? And I know you represented
that there were two different ways that
[2:13:09] you could potentially even do them.
>> Yeah, when we manufacture the corners,
[2:13:13] we can do it uh
We've done 10 of these in Jefferson
[2:13:16] County recently.
Uh none in downtown, obviously. So, we
[2:13:21] can uh not put the dovetail block as you
will on the corner to appease that and
[2:13:27] just actually have the sidings come
together with a traditional, like what
[2:13:32] you saw in the previous picture, a uh
1 by 6 uh trim corner over those if
[2:13:38] that's what this that would be up to.
We can go either way.
[2:13:43] » Can you give me an address of one of the
ones you've done in Jefferson County?
[2:13:47] » I have a whole list.
>> Just one. I'm just trying to try and
[2:13:51] pull up a picture on my phone.
>> Pull up a picture of Larry and Rita
[2:13:55] Andrus on Little Cedar. Uh don't have
the address memorized.
[2:13:59] » Mhm. Oh, okay. Okay. Well,
um okay.
[2:14:05] » Will with that um
alteration of the plan for the corners
[2:14:08] help cure some of your concerns?
>> That would. Yeah, that would really help
[2:14:11] a lot.
>> Would you uh care to maybe offer a
[2:14:15] motion with that concern articulated?
>> Sure enough.
[2:14:19] I would like to move that the Madison
Historic District Board of Review
[2:14:24] approve your plan for the house as it
stands with
[2:14:29] more traditional corners not unlock
overlap corner.
[2:14:33] » As described by the applicant.
>> As described by the applicant, excuse
[2:14:36] me.
>> Do we have a second for that motion?
[2:14:43] » I'll second that.
>> Think we should do another roll call
[2:14:47] vote here. Brenna?
>> Chris Cody?
[2:14:50] » Approve.
>> Happy Smith?
[2:14:51] » Approve.
>> Phil Jewel?
[2:14:53] » Approve.
>> Jared Anderson?
[2:14:55] » Approve.
>> Jade Skillman?
[2:14:56] » Approve.
>> Thank you, gentlemen, for talking that
[2:14:59] through with us and
>> Thank you for your time.
[2:15:04] » Okay, so now we move on to the new old
business portion of the meeting. Uh,
[2:15:10] do we have any old business that we
should discuss?
[2:15:13] » not.
>> Is there any new business that we should
[2:15:17] discuss?
>> Not that I'm aware of unless
[2:15:22] I don't I don't think so.
>> I'll also make an offer to the public.
[2:15:25] Is there anything that the public would
like to bring to the board's attention?
[2:15:33] Thank you very much.
>> Okay.
[2:15:35] Then we will move real quick into staff
report. So, this month
[2:15:40] we've had a couple.
Um
[2:15:44] couple signs, several fences, um one
walkway,
[2:15:49] and some doors and shutters.
And then
[2:15:53] for our annual review, all of the
projects have been completed.
[2:16:03] » Well, thank you very much, Brenna.
Is there any other business that anyone
[2:16:07] on the board would like to address? If
not, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.
[2:16:15] » I move that we adjourn.
>> Second.
[2:16:17] » All those in favor?
>> Aye.
[2:16:18] » Aye.
>> Any opposed?
[2:16:22] Hearing none.
[2:16:27] » Any opposed will leave you here.
[2:16:31] » Well, that