[0:23] All right. Hello everybody. Uh, thank
[0:24] you for taking time out of your Tuesday
[0:26] evening to join us for tonight's Burough
[0:28] Council meeting. I'm Council President
[0:30] Brennan Phillips and Mayor Papadopoulos.
[0:32] Would you please lead us in the
[0:33] invocation?
[0:41] As we begin tonight's meeting, let us
[0:43] take a moment to reflect on the
[0:45] responsibility we share to serve our
[0:47] community with fairness, patience, and
[0:49] good judgment. As another school year
[0:52] gets underway, we wish the children of
[0:53] our community a year filled with
[0:55] learning, friendship, growth, and
[0:57] opportunity. We also recognize the
[0:59] teachers, staff, parents, and families
[1:01] who support them throughout the year.
[1:04] We ask for continued safety and
[1:05] protection from our police, for our
[1:07] police officers, first responders, and
[1:09] all those who work each day to keep our
[1:11] community safe. We also give thanks for
[1:13] our burough employees and all they do,
[1:15] often behind the scenes in service to
[1:17] our residents. May we be guide May we be
[1:20] guided tonight by wisdom, understanding,
[1:22] and respect for one another. May our
[1:24] discussions be thoughtful, our
[1:26] disagreements respectful, and our
[1:27] decisions always made with the best
[1:29] interests of our community in mind.
[1:31] Amen.
[1:32] I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
[1:35] United States of America and to the
[1:37] republic for which it stands, one nation
[1:40] under God, indivisible, liberty and
[1:43] justice for all.
[1:47] » All right, roll call. Uh, as I
[1:49] mentioned, I'm Council President
[1:50] Phillips, Council Vice President Warner,
[1:53] Council Member Bones.
[1:55] He's joining us via phone, I believe, so
[1:58] hopefully he'll be able to hear us. Uh,
[2:00] council member Frederick
[2:01] >> here.
[2:01] >> Council member Coons
[2:02] >> here.
[2:03] >> Council member Neim
[2:04] >> here.
[2:04] >> Council member Rashetti
[2:05] >> here.
[2:06] >> And Mayor Papadopoulos
[2:07] >> here.
[2:07] >> All right. Announcements. Anyone
[2:09] recording the meeting is asked to
[2:10] announce so at this time in accordance
[2:12] with resolution number 875. Uh, you are
[2:14] permitted to record. We just need to let
[2:16] people know and the bureau will be uh
[2:18] recording for the purposes of not only
[2:20] streaming it but also putting it on the
[2:22] burough's website. Do I have anybody
[2:24] recording?
[2:25] All right. And just so that you're
[2:26] aware, impromptu recording may occur at
[2:29] any time. Um, resolution number 875 also
[2:32] establishes the con protocol for burough
[2:34] council meetings. Uh,
[2:37] for those of you who haven't been here
[2:38] before, this isn't a place for
[2:40] screaming, carrying on, yelling
[2:42] profanity. At least everybody, you know,
[2:45] act like you're in a place where
[2:48] everybody can be respected. All right.
[2:50] Uh, you'll have three minutes to make
[2:52] public comment. uh the period for public
[2:55] comment in the beginning is for anything
[2:57] that is not an agenda item and then for
[2:59] the various agenda items, you will have
[3:01] another opportunity to make public
[3:02] comment. All right? So, if there's
[3:03] something that you see on the agenda,
[3:06] save that for when the agenda item comes
[3:07] around. Okay?
[3:09] Uh a reminder that public comment is a
[3:11] time to bring comments to council, not a
[3:13] time for questions and answers. So, if
[3:15] you have questions about a particular
[3:16] topic, uh we might not be able to answer
[3:18] it right on the spot. And I recommend
[3:20] that you go to Burough Administration.
[3:22] They have office hours and you can speak
[3:23] to them at any time on any topic. Okay.
[3:26] Uh join the Malvin Environmental
[3:28] Advisory Council for a guided migratory
[3:31] birdwalk at the Malvin Retreat House on
[3:33] September 12th at 8 a.m. Uh registration
[3:36] is required on malvinourn.org.
[3:39] >> People can park here. I think we'll walk
[3:40] over from
[3:41] >> Okay. And parking is available at uh
[3:43] Burough Hall here. Uh, and Chief
[3:45] Marcelli will participate in the third
[3:46] annual cheers to CDC, the battle of the
[3:48] badges event benefiting the crime
[3:50] centers vict crime victim centers of
[3:52] Chester County on September 17th from
[3:54] 5:00 to 8:00 p.m. at Bellefor Property
[3:56] Restoration. Uh, it was a great event.
[3:58] Uh, I attended last year as did a number
[4:01] of members of council and I believe the
[4:03] chief uh was the highest earning uh
[4:07] police chief for the entire uh event.
[4:09] So,
[4:10] >> and we'd like to keep that going In
[4:12] that vein, there is a ticket for each
[4:15] council member and the mayor, um, Sylvia
[4:17] Nicole at the door for you.
[4:19] >> Sounds good. And good luck to the chief.
[4:23] Uh, on Friday, September 18th from 5:00
[4:25] to 8:30 is the craft and merkantile
[4:27] event, uh, security night market
[4:30] celebrating local makers and artisans
[4:32] alongside live music, food, and drink.
[4:34] And it'll take place at Burke Park. And
[4:36] it's one of our community's best events.
[4:38] So, I hope to see you all out there.
[4:41] Uh, PY Battlefield Heritage Day will be
[4:43] held on Sunday, September 26 from
[4:44] [clears throat] 11:00 a.m. to 4 pm. Uh,
[4:46] it should be fun. So, I hope to see you
[4:48] guys out there, too. Parks and Wreck is
[4:50] hosting a family movie night on
[4:52] September 26th at 7:30 p.m. at Burke
[4:55] Park featuring the film Sarah's Oil.
[4:57] Malvin Burough will participate in the
[4:59] domestic violence center of Chester
[5:01] County's Paint the Town Purple awareness
[5:03] event uh for the month of October. And
[5:05] then, please also visit the Burough's
[5:07] website regularly for upcoming community
[5:08] events. Uh next we're going to move on
[5:10] to the approval of the agenda. Uh we
[5:12] have the PMA here. Uh and they would
[5:15] like to discuss the heritage center at
[5:17] the pale memorial grounds. Uh Mr.
[5:19] Ortner, who's been our liaison to the
[5:20] PMA, has requested uh since some of the
[5:23] members of the PMA might not be able to
[5:24] stay the whole meeting that he be moved
[5:26] to the top of the agenda under council
[5:28] business. And I think that's a good
[5:29] idea. So, uh, with that, I'd like to
[5:31] approve the agenda, uh, but move, uh,
[5:35] the Paley Memorial Association up to the
[5:37] first item under council business. So,
[5:40] with that said, do I have a motion?
[5:41] >> So, move.
[5:42] >> Second.
[5:43] >> All in favor?
[5:44] >> I. All right. Motion passes. Next up is
[5:46] public comment. If anybody would care to
[5:48] make public com comment on a topic that
[5:50] doesn't appear on the agenda, you may do
[5:52] so now. Uh, Mr. Petty John.
[5:57] All
[6:06] right, Betty John
[6:08] Street. Um, now that we [laughter]
[6:12] now that we've moved the uh uh meeting
[6:15] on from Zoom to YouTube, um, a couple neighbors were asking about how
[6:20] to ask a make a comment or, you know,
[6:24] participate in a meeting since it's on
[6:26] Zoom. I don't know if we have that
[6:27] worked out yet or not. So, that was my
[6:30] curiosity
[6:31] question. Maybe send something out.
[6:33] Thanks, guys.
[6:34] >> Thank you. And as I mentioned before, if
[6:36] you have any questions or comments,
[6:37] you're always welcome to either email uh
[6:39] malvin.org or stop in to the office to
[6:42] discuss with the administration. Mr.
[6:44] Buckley, would you care to make public
[6:45] comment?
[6:46] >> Yeah.
[6:48] >> Thank everybody for coming out here
[6:49] tonight.
[6:51] >> Okay, let's get let's get down to
[6:53] business now. Um, as you see, I came in
[6:56] there wasn't no agendas.
[6:59] We're getting paid to do that. What's
[7:01] the big idea about making some instead
[7:04] of a few? Cuz you don't know when it's
[7:06] going to be crowded or not. That's okay.
[7:08] You don't have to answer me. I know what
[7:09] I'm saying. Um, another thing is these
[7:14] builders come into our town and these
[7:16] taxpayers don't get nothing when they
[7:18] want something w. They got to get a
[7:20] permit for a shed and all. If you want a
[7:22] shed, you should have a shed. Everybody
[7:24] had a shed back in the day, but the
[7:26] builders get away with what they want
[7:28] and stuff. Wait,
[7:30] um 162 Church Street and 156 Church
[7:35] Street across the street from me and two
[7:37] over, three over. Um if you get a if you
[7:41] got a permit, you have to post it so
[7:43] people in the street can see it. Prove
[7:45] me wrong if I'm not. Um over next to
[7:49] Vicky Sharps, I was over that way. Uh
[7:52] two houses going up this way. They did a
[7:56] roof. And how come I didn't see no
[7:57] permit? And I had to get permit when I
[7:59] did my roofs and stuff on good work. I'm
[8:01] tired of coming down here when somebody
[8:04] like somebody's helping somebody on low
[8:06] income, poor people or somebody that
[8:09] needs help and they're improving their
[8:10] property. That's not right to nail them.
[8:13] They nailed them over $300 the first
[8:15] one.
[8:16] >> Okay. We'll keep on rolling with you so
[8:18] I don't lose my time. Uh,
[8:24] okay. Um,
[8:28] traffic light. I'm not going to keep
[8:31] bringing this up. I won't keep bringing
[8:32] it up. I mean, till I get one there
[8:34] because the bur can have one and it
[8:36] won't cost enough, but they don't want
[8:38] it. So, I'm working on it. Get go higher
[8:40] up. We're getting that light there
[8:41] before a kid gets hit. You talk about
[8:44] safety in this bird, you're going to
[8:46] wait till a kid gets hit. That's what it
[8:48] is. An older person going out for
[8:50] dinner. I hope it ain't none of your
[8:52] kids are you.
[8:54] Uh
[8:58] oh. I like to see the police once in a
[9:00] while. We talk how great they are, but
[9:02] it'd be nice to see them. Oh, we got all
[9:05] these police and we just hire more three
[9:07] part-times and another full-time.
[9:10] you it'd be nice to see them because the
[9:12] taxpayers pay their salary and all and
[9:14] everything that goes on in this bur
[9:16] don't go nowhere but here you don't make
[9:19] you don't get down to do your job you
[9:21] know so I'm going to keep you know thank
[9:24] you all right just to uh clarify some of
[9:28] these points uh I see the police
[9:31] multiple times a day every day I think
[9:33] we've got a great police force I don't
[9:35] think that statement is accurate
[9:36] secondly we've discussed the traffic
[9:38] light at King and Bridge many times
[9:39] We've studied the intersection. You know
[9:41] this, John. Uh, and the chief has
[9:43] recommended that we don't put a light in
[9:45] there. Our traffic engineer has
[9:46] recommended that as well. We believe
[9:48] putting a light in that intersection
[9:49] will make the intersection more
[9:51] dangerous. Everyone needs to stop at a
[9:53] stop sign. Not everyone uh when the
[9:56] light turns yellow, people start
[9:57] speeding, right? No one stopping at a
[9:59] green light. We believe the safest
[10:00] solution, and we've told you this many
[10:02] times, is to keep the stop signs where
[10:04] they are. Lastly, you did a great job
[10:07] tattlettailing on your fellow residents,
[10:09] right, with all your complaints. But
[10:11] what disgust me, one of the people
[10:13] you're attacking is someone who just
[10:14] lost their husband a couple months ago.
[10:16] She's a widow and she's got a young son
[10:18] and you're beating up on them when
[10:20] they're down.
[10:22] Your neighbor right across the street.
[10:24] Okay. Enough.
[10:28] Well, if I may um just um I know that
[10:35] this hasn't just just to clarify on the
[10:39] building permit issue and I think Dan
[10:42] will tell me if I'm wrong. When the
[10:45] uniform commercial or the uniform
[10:47] construction code was adopted, the rule
[10:50] was changed so that a building permit
[10:54] needs to be on site, but it no longer
[10:57] has to be posted
[10:59] because for various reasons, they get
[11:01] damaged. Um, people who don't need to
[11:06] know anything except that a permit has
[11:08] been issued. Um, so in and we I believe
[11:12] we changed the burough ordinance. You
[11:15] don't remember? Yeah, I'm pretty sure
[11:16] that it's no longer required to be
[11:20] posted, but it does have to be on site.
[11:23] >> No.
[11:26] >> All right. Would anyone else care to
[11:27] make public comment?
[11:29] All right. Uh, let's move on to the
[11:33] professionals report. Uh, Wendy, would
[11:34] you care to give the soliciters report?
[11:36] >> Sure.
[11:42] So, um Scott and I have continued to
[11:45] work on various um ordinances
[11:49] that um like the the dog ordinance, food
[11:52] truck ordinance that are that are in
[11:54] various stages of approval.
[11:57] Scott has been monitoring andor
[12:00] participating in the various
[12:03] um lawsuits that are pending.
[12:07] um a as well as um
[12:11] monitoring
[12:13] and participating to the extent
[12:14] necessary regarding the um home rule
[12:18] charter amendment petitions.
[12:21] We both keep ch uh tabs on the status of
[12:26] subdivision and land development
[12:27] projects and participate in um those as
[12:32] needed, drafting resolutions or giving
[12:35] advice. Scott spent uh quite a bit of
[12:38] time with past couple of months with the
[12:42] trash bids, developing the packages,
[12:46] going through the process, reviewing the
[12:48] packages. [snorts]
[12:50] Um he also has been involved in zoning
[12:53] ordinance enforcement matters and right
[12:56] to know requests. Um I've been
[12:59] continuing work on the um zoning and
[13:03] subdivision land development ordinance
[13:05] rewrite and also um I uh keep track or
[13:12] keep tabs on things like developments in
[13:16] the data center
[13:19] um legislation or lack thereof and other
[13:22] state um legislative initiatives.
[13:27] So that's our report. Thank you. Uh Dan,
[13:29] would you care to give the engineers
[13:30] report? Sure.
[13:31] >> Um [clears throat] for the uh past month
[13:33] here, uh various uh permit plan reviews
[13:35] and subdivision land development
[13:37] reviews, including the two on the agenda
[13:39] for tonight. Um for public works
[13:41] projects, uh we're still working on um
[13:44] getting some uh sewer repairs done for
[13:46] uh 2026, including the Minor Hill uh
[13:49] sewer meter um uh which we have some uh
[13:52] proposals to uh repair that meter. Um
[13:55] and also uh some additional work on
[13:58] North Warren Avenue and Old Lincoln
[13:59] Highway. Um the paving program here for
[14:03] 2026
[14:04] um coordinating with the contractor
[14:06] which uh work is scheduled for probably
[14:08] the week of September 14th or the 21st
[14:12] um for the um uh paving of half of
[14:15] Pennsylvania Avenue from the Cold Sack
[14:18] out um halfway out um through the uh to
[14:22] North Warren. Um
[14:25] the uh North Warren uh Avenue stream
[14:27] bank stabilization project here. Um we
[14:30] have uh oversaw the construction of that stream bank stabilization work is
[14:34] complete. Um we still have um tree
[14:37] plantings and live state plantings uh
[14:39] scheduled for the fall. Uh but all the
[14:41] stream bank channel work has uh has been
[14:43] completed. Um and uh the we had a couple
[14:46] week detour um uh established during
[14:49] that process during the daytime and
[14:51] that's all been uh completed and taken
[14:52] down. I finally got the signs down. They
[14:55] took a little while to get down. Um the
[14:58] Randolph Woods project here, we're
[14:59] overseeing the uh phase one construction
[15:02] improvements. Uh the boardwalk has been
[15:04] completed. Uh the bridge should be
[15:06] completed this week and uh they're going
[15:09] to be moving over to the pavilion uh
[15:11] here next um for that project. Um, so
[15:14] we've been working with the contractor
[15:15] on uh on overseeing that work. Um, and
[15:19] also been working with DCNR to um uh do
[15:23] the phase 1A grant contract closeouts.
[15:27] Um, the uh First Avenue um handicap
[15:31] ramp, the the building here, the Mel
[15:32] Burough uh building here, we're going to
[15:34] be replacing the um uh the sidewalk uh
[15:38] right in front of the building uh with a
[15:40] handicap ramp. Um we're hoping to get a
[15:43] schedule for that. They were potentially
[15:44] going to start here this week. It's not
[15:46] doesn't look like that's going to
[15:47] happen. Um so uh probably uh within next
[15:50] week or two uh they'll be out to uh to
[15:53] replace that. Uh just for everybody's
[15:55] knowledge on that one. We're going to um
[15:57] we're going to the access to the front
[16:00] door will be maintained um for um for
[16:03] people that need to get to the elevator.
[16:06] We're going to look to uh um divert the
[16:08] majority of traffic over to the side um
[16:11] side uh side entrance in here for uh for
[16:14] when that works being done around when
[16:15] the contractor is working just to avoid
[16:18] conflicting with the uh the um uh the um
[16:21] the construction workers and the access
[16:23] in and out. But if you need to get in to
[16:26] use the front door, that will be open.
[16:28] Um so we'll set up some uh barricades
[16:30] and signs associated with that work. Um
[16:32] the pump house uh I've been trying to uh
[16:35] to consult with that um which is on the
[16:37] agenda tonight which I'll defer to uh to
[16:40] that point. Um the truck signage uh
[16:43] ordinance was passed as you guys know in
[16:45] your past or uh past um meetings. We've
[16:47] uh been working with uh Bowman and we do
[16:50] have the traffic pendot traffic signal
[16:53] uh approval um from uh from PennDOT. So,
[16:56] I'll be working with public works staff
[16:58] to uh to uh order signs and get the um
[17:02] final uh that implementation of that um
[17:05] truck signage up here shortly. [snorts]
[17:07] Um but we just got here the end of last
[17:09] week the um signed uh signed approval
[17:11] from uh from Pendot.
[17:14] The um I guess that's the uh bulk of my
[17:17] uh public works projects have been
[17:18] working on.
[17:19] >> All right. Thank you question.
[17:22] >> Can you just a rough order of magnitude?
[17:24] What's the timeline from the approval to
[17:27] getting the signs actually up?
[17:29] >> Um, so I had uh um we have to order the
[17:32] signs and I don't know what the time
[17:34] frame that would be to to to have those
[17:36] signs ordered, but basically we wanted
[17:37] to get all through the pendot approval.
[17:39] Um we're going to I told public works
[17:41] staff here last week that I would we'd
[17:43] sit down and go through and make sure we have all the right sizes and
[17:47] everything ordered. So hopefully I don't
[17:48] know if I'll maybe have a chance this
[17:50] week to to schedule time to stop over to
[17:52] see them and go through that. So we can
[17:54] have a a full list of signs to be ready
[17:56] to be ordered by Christmas.
[17:58] >> Uh I I would I I mean I would anticipate
[18:01] they're all standard signs, so they're
[18:02] not I mean other than the two signs as
[18:04] you enter the burrow on King Street on
[18:06] either side. Um uh but I would
[18:08] anticipate it be could be complete this
[18:10] year.
[18:10] >> Halloween sounds great.
[18:12] >> Y got it.
[18:13] >> Hey Dan, on the uh Randolph Woods, the
[18:16] new trail now the bridge looks like it's
[18:19] pretty much getting done. When do you
[18:21] think that trail will be really
[18:24] available for people to uh to use?
[18:26] >> People are using it now. We haven't shut
[18:28] it down during construction. People are
[18:29] out there for it now. Um they were going
[18:32] to try to get all of the trail work kind
[18:35] of cleaned up um and accessible here u
[18:39] before they moved over to the nature
[18:40] play area. They wanted to kind of button
[18:42] all that up. Um, so, uh, I'm hoping here
[18:44] within the next week or two, they'll
[18:46] have the bulk of that kind of pulled
[18:47] together for, um, that loop trail to be all accessible and all the
[18:52] construction equipment out of the way.
[18:53] >> Yeah. Thank you.
[18:54] >> Y
[18:56] >> All right. Thank you. And, uh, we're
[18:58] going to skip the manager's report
[18:59] tonight because, frankly, Nicole's been
[19:01] too busy to create a report. So, she'll
[19:02] be giving the report next month. So,
[19:04] it's going to be extra long, I'm sure.
[19:07] Um, let's move up to the Burough Council
[19:09] subcommittees. Uh, finance
[19:10] administration. Uh they will next meet
[19:12] on Thursday, September 17th. Have you
[19:14] guys I don't believe we've met since our
[19:16] last meeting. Um public safety uh when
[19:20] we Okay. Uh when we last met, uh we
[19:23] discussed walkability, uh crosswalks on
[19:26] King Street, things of that nature. And
[19:27] we'll next meet on Monday, September
[19:29] 28th, and uh public works.
[19:32] >> Yes, we met this week on August 25th. We
[19:35] discussed most of the stuff that Dan
[19:37] just went through. We also talked about
[19:39] the King Street lights, the King Street
[19:41] crosswalks, uh the public works garage
[19:44] remodel, potential fence down at the
[19:46] public works building, and the new trash
[19:49] cans. So, I just wanted to give props to
[19:50] our uh public works guys for installing
[19:53] the new trash and recycle bins in Burke
[19:55] Park. They look great. Thank you guys.
[19:57] We are meeting again on Tuesday,
[19:58] September 22nd.
[20:00] >> Thank you. Uh let's move on to council
[20:02] business. uh to consider the application
[20:05] of the Paley Memorial Association for
[20:07] preliminary preliminary/final
[20:10] land development for the Heritage Center
[20:11] on Paley Memorial Grant. Uh Dan, I know
[20:14] you did a lot of uh work with this
[20:16] group. Uh I noticed that uh they're
[20:19] requesting a couple of waiverss. Uh do
[20:21] you want to walk us through those?
[20:24] >> Um sure. Do um do you want the the folks
[20:27] on them to give an overview of the
[20:29] project to handle? ask Frank to speak in
[20:31] a little bit, but I just want to make
[20:32] sure that we all know what it is that
[20:33] we're discussing and what they're
[20:35] requesting. Uh, and I noticed in your
[20:38] report that there was a number of items.
[20:41] I don't know if this was the final one,
[20:43] but there were some documents that you
[20:44] were still anticipating uh from this
[20:47] group.
[20:48] >> Uh, yes. So, um, so I have an August
[20:50] 14th, 2026 review letter here. Um, and,
[20:53] uh, that letter does outline, uh, the
[20:55] number of outstanding items. The
[20:56] majority of the items are planning
[20:58] related items um for PL um I'm sorry
[21:01] plan content um nothing critical from a
[21:04] uh construction perspective they have to
[21:07] uh um do some odds and ends but I I'll
[21:09] you want me to kind of run through just
[21:11] the the key items that are related to
[21:13] the waiverss you want me to start with
[21:14] >> I I would start with waivers and then if
[21:16] council has any questions about what
[21:18] that means uh answer
[21:21] >> so um the the uh the waivers waiverss
[21:26] are going to uh they don't um there were
[21:28] a couple waivers that they had requested
[21:30] related to primary final. Uh we were
[21:32] determining this project to be a minor
[21:33] plan. So they don't need a preliminary
[21:35] final waiver. They're able to move right
[21:37] to final plan. Um assuming that uh
[21:40] everything goes according with the
[21:42] waiverss and they don't need to do any
[21:43] street widening. There'll be a minor
[21:44] plan. They don't need to or the fi
[21:47] fourstep design process. Um the uh I'm
[21:50] just running through which were the
[21:52] waiverss here for this um track
[21:54] boundary.
[21:55] Um
[21:58] a waiver request. Um so section 503 of
[22:01] the ordinance requires that any new
[22:03] subdivision is required to widen uh
[22:05] public streets and or dedicate
[22:07] additional rightways. Um uh this is a
[22:10] small little project inside the memorial
[22:11] ground there. And uh so they were asking
[22:13] a waiver not to have to uh do any
[22:15] roadway improvements out on the public
[22:17] streets um for uh for that. They uh
[22:21] requesting a waiver to not install curbs
[22:24] along all public streets. As you're well
[22:26] aware, you're able to require uh
[22:28] property owners to install curb um
[22:30] during a subdivision of land
[22:31] development. Same thing with sidewalk.
[22:33] Um so they're asking for a waiver not to
[22:35] do sidewalk around the perimeter. They
[22:37] have a very large frontage along Wayne
[22:39] um Monument Avenue and Sugartown. Um and
[22:43] so they're asking waiverss for both the
[22:44] curbs and the sidewalks for those areas.
[22:47] Um
[22:50] see I think that might be sewage
[22:52] disposal. No waiverss for that. um water
[22:56] supply
[22:57] electric service and then a waiver for
[23:00] um installing uh street trees um along
[23:03] the property frontage again along Wayne
[23:05] Monument and uh Sugartown um and they
[23:08] obviously uh the the shade tree
[23:10] commission supported that waiver. They
[23:11] did come in and meet with the shade tree
[23:12] commission um and that was they
[23:14] definitely supported that. The shade
[23:16] tree commission in the bureau uh works
[23:17] with the the PMA grow folks for tree
[23:19] plantings every every year also. Yeah.
[23:21] Good.
[23:22] >> Dan, being as this is the first time the
[23:24] historic ordinance has come into play,
[23:27] is that going to require a waiver? The
[23:29] historic commission recommended treating
[23:31] it as a tier three versus a tier one.
[23:34] Will that need to be a waiver?
[23:36] >> Um, I don't I to be honest with you, um
[23:39] I I that's in I don't think that's in
[23:42] the that's not in the subdivision land
[23:44] development ordinance. So that's not a
[23:46] waiver. That's not a waiver uh an item
[23:49] for a waiver for that.
[23:50] >> Okay. um still has to be reviewed.
[23:53] >> Yeah.
[23:53] >> With that ordinance.
[23:55] >> Yeah. So that that that that's a that's a standalone ordinance,
[23:58] correct? I
[23:59] >> think so.
[24:00] >> Um so the enforcability here, I'm going
[24:01] to ask Wendy on that one here. The
[24:03] enforcability of the standalone
[24:05] ordinance. It's not a subdivisional land
[24:06] development, so it won't be a waiver. Um
[24:08] how's that how's that process worked?
[24:11] >> I'd have to look at it. I I don't know
[24:16] off the top of my head, but this is um
[24:19] an accessory structure also. Um so, uh I
[24:27] if if it does require a waiver, it seems
[24:30] like they they could add that to the
[24:34] list, but I don't know without looking
[24:36] at it.
[24:40] » Okay. Are there any other questions from
[24:41] council? I I have a question not related
[24:44] to waiverss. Um so Dan, it looked like
[24:48] the square footage of the building was
[24:50] maybe just under what would require um a
[24:54] full storm water management plan. I
[24:56] guess it's some it's the it's in that
[24:58] middle range of
[24:59] >> they're they're required to do a
[25:01] simplified simplified approach and they
[25:02] are proposing a seepage bed. Um the bed
[25:05] was uh the last application that came in
[25:08] showed two beds. Um the engineer put it
[25:11] in as one uh right now and it's a little
[25:14] bit under size. So they uh they have to
[25:15] my note my note for that was to increase
[25:17] the size of it to manage that uh that additional runoff.
[25:21] >> So simplified does that mean that it's
[25:23] only for um the over between nothing and
[25:30] what is it 2500 square feet or something
[25:32] like that?
[25:32] >> Yeah. So, the simplified approach is
[25:34] between um uh 400 and um I think it's
[25:38] 1,000 square ft. And then everything
[25:40] above 1,000 ends up being uh requires a
[25:44] full storm water designed. Um I believe
[25:47] is I believe the threshold is 1 1,000
[25:49] square ft for uh for the burrow here. Um
[25:52] and uh and they were under that
[25:53] threshold to to be able to do the
[25:55] simplified approach. and simplified
[25:56] approach is is basically uh managing um
[26:00] the uh the the 1-in runoff uh event from
[26:03] uh for those impervious coverage. Um so they
[26:07] basically that's that's what they were
[26:08] proposing to do. So because I I'm pretty
[26:12] sure that in the new zoning we have made
[26:14] it now if there's disturbance that they
[26:16] have to apply it that it we're not we
[26:18] didn't maintain that sort of
[26:20] intermediate um
[26:21] >> that's in this that's in the storm water
[26:23] management ordinance the new zoning the
[26:25] new zoning and subdivision ordinances
[26:27] have not did not address the storm water
[26:29] ordinance that still stays as the uh the
[26:31] model ordinance uh from the county which
[26:34] the bureau is more restrictive than the
[26:36] county model ordinance county model
[26:38] ordinance is The minimum threshold was a
[26:41] thousand square feet and you don't have
[26:42] to any 10,000 square feet unless you
[26:44] don't have to do anything. The burrow
[26:46] had decided years ago that we were going
[26:48] to make that threshold 400 square feet
[26:50] before when we have to kick in storm
[26:51] water.
[26:52] >> Oh, okay. So, that's why we had talked
[26:54] about looking at our storm water
[26:55] ordinance once we finish the zoning to
[26:58] make sure that we're comfortable with
[26:59] that. Correct.
[27:00] >> MS and and right now we're we exceed the
[27:03] minimum requirements necessary from the county as as it's written
[27:06] today. Right.
[27:10] Any other questions from council before
[27:12] I ask Frank to
[27:14] come up? All right. Uh, Mr. Orner, would
[27:16] you care to say a few words about the
[27:18] project and maybe answer some questions
[27:20] from council?
[27:21] >> Just a few.
[27:25] >> Uh, good evening. First of all, I'd like
[27:27] to mention uh we have member a number or
[27:31] a number of our board members here this
[27:33] evening. And if I could just mention who
[27:36] they are. Uh Jim Fiscus. Uh if you'd
[27:39] stand up when I give your name so people
[27:41] can see who that person is. Jim uh and
[27:45] Bill Shoemaker next to him. Joe Boris
[27:48] next to Bill.
[27:50] Uh Chad Darlington.
[27:55] Jay Kappa.
[27:57] Anybody else here? Oh, Hugo. Hugo
[28:01] Schmidt back there in the back.
[28:06] Okay. and and I asked them to come in
[28:08] case they would like to say something
[28:10] with regard to the whole thing that I
[28:12] maybe left out. Um, okay. I I was up in
[28:17] here today and I gave Sylvie some
[28:20] information I'd like to go through at
[28:22] this point. This is new information as
[28:25] of today. Really, I picked up the stuff
[28:29] from the architect today. And is there
[28:33] any Well, okay. I guess that's the
[28:35] brightest one over there.
[28:38] Yeah.
[28:40] But, uh, this represents the, uh,
[28:44] heritage center that we anticipate being
[28:46] able to put in. Uh, and it's going to
[28:49] go. If you go back to the first one,
[28:51] Sylvie,
[28:53] uh, can you can you sharpen that up at
[28:56] all or make it larger?
[28:59] >> That's that's better. [laughter]
[29:01] Thank you.
[29:03] Um you'll you'll take you'll you'll
[29:06] notice that the building uh is
[29:11] very near where that grandstand is and
[29:15] we're not looking to make any changes as
[29:17] far as a grandstand is concerned and
[29:19] which gets to maybe Lynn's Lynn's point
[29:22] on the historical uh commission. Um, and
[29:26] we're going to be moving it a couple
[29:27] feet back of where that lowest stone is
[29:33] uh on that um on either side. Uh, by the
[29:38] way, the grandstand is 18 and 1/2 ft on
[29:41] each of three sides. It's a three-sided
[29:44] square, if you will. And so on the on
[29:48] the side, there is no there is no uh uh
[29:53] stone or railroad tie. That's where
[29:55] we're going to be putting the um the
[29:58] heritage center. And one of the things
[30:01] that we need to do in order for this to
[30:04] be done, this was approved by the the
[30:07] shade tree commission, which Brandon you
[30:09] mentioned before, and that is there's an
[30:11] oak tree that's relatively close to
[30:14] that. And this is something that we
[30:17] would we would have to take down the oak
[30:20] tree and um but we would replace it with
[30:25] three other trees uh that are colonial
[30:28] in nature
[30:29] and um so that's again what we're
[30:34] looking to do. Um, we had talked to the
[30:38] Shadri Commission and actually we met
[30:40] out there and uh while there uh we got
[30:46] uh they got Joe Bones on the phone and
[30:49] uh as as an arborist is no longer on the
[30:51] shade tree commission but of course he's
[30:52] on Burough Council and I'm hoping that
[30:55] Joe can hear me at this point. Uh but uh
[30:59] that being the case, that was that's a
[31:02] black oak tree that we're talking about
[31:04] and it's part of the red oak family and
[31:07] that um apparently there's a a disease
[31:11] going around with regard to red oaks.
[31:14] So, uh, Joe felt that by putting in the
[31:19] foundation out there, it might may
[31:22] disturb some of the roots and, uh,
[31:24] affect the longevity, if you will, of
[31:27] that particular black oak. So, bottom
[31:30] line is they they came back and said,
[31:32] "Okay, let's well, if it's going to be
[31:36] uh dying off in a few years, the best
[31:40] thing to do is take it down now before
[31:41] we get the heritage center up." And um
[31:45] so again we look we're looking to
[31:48] replace it with three trees in a similar
[31:52] area. Some trees have already been taken
[31:55] down years ago because of the uh because
[31:58] of the uh diseases. And uh so uh that
[32:03] was the first slide. Now Sylvie, if you
[32:06] want to go back or there we go.
[32:09] Okay. This is now you have an individual
[32:13] walking on the pathway. We're we're
[32:16] looking to go into
[32:18] uh the the heritage center on the north
[32:21] side. So uh and that's what that's what
[32:26] you would see if you will uh from the
[32:30] road the the
[32:33] uh road that's of course going through
[32:36] the going through the park. facility. If
[32:39] you go to the next one. Okay, this is
[32:42] the front entrance.
[32:44] So, you can see where
[32:47] uh the doors there's a door on either
[32:49] side of the glass window. And that door,
[32:53] the door on the right is the entrance.
[32:55] Door on the left is the exit. And
[32:57] there's a uh as you can see, a porch
[33:00] there. And that's about 8 ft uh in
[33:06] width and about uh 7 7 1/2 ft
[33:13] from the cement to the the beam
[33:18] um and obviously going in. Okay, next
[33:22] one. And by the way, I have copies for
[33:26] you so you can take it home and look at
[33:28] them. This is okay. This is now looking
[33:32] into the the center. And if you take a
[33:35] look at the roof,
[33:37] this is where the timber part comes into
[33:38] play. And the timber part
[33:42] uh it's going to be I think it's going
[33:45] to be very very well done. And we're
[33:48] looking at it as a now on the sides on
[33:52] the walls. We're not seeing timber. It's
[33:56] really going to depend on the money that
[33:58] we are able to generate for this entire
[34:02] project. So, um the more money we are
[34:06] able to generate, I think the better
[34:08] it's going to look because we can do
[34:10] timber throughout
[34:12] and uh but it'll be something similar to
[34:14] what you'll see there on the on the uh
[34:18] on the roof. The window there on the
[34:21] right side is the window that's going to
[34:23] be looking out the south side
[34:26] um of the park of the building and it'll
[34:31] be looking onto the grave site. It'll
[34:34] you'll be able to see the grave site
[34:36] from there and also uh looking at on a
[34:40] different angle you'll be able to see
[34:41] the monuments that are on the right hand
[34:43] side. The monument that's there in the
[34:45] middle is the monument that we're
[34:47] looking to move from the grave site to
[34:51] the u to the center and the center. And
[34:55] the reason for that is the the the u
[35:00] the monument itself is two over 210.
[35:04] It'll be 210 years old next year. And uh
[35:08] it's it's gone through a lot of
[35:09] weathering over the years. And this will
[35:13] protect it going forward, but we're
[35:16] going to replace it with another
[35:17] monument very similar to what the
[35:20] monument looked like when it went in. Uh
[35:25] over the years, people have taken little
[35:26] chips off of it and so on and so forth
[35:28] and and uh which whatever however it
[35:32] looks now, that's how it's going to look
[35:35] inside. We're going to have to put some
[35:37] glass around it. um but not like the
[35:41] plexiglass that was on it uh up until
[35:44] recently.
[35:47] And the window on the left is looking
[35:49] out over the pale battlefield.
[35:53] So you have windows on the left looking
[35:55] at the pale battlefield on the right
[35:57] looking out over the grave site. on as
[36:00] you enter, if you're standing by the by
[36:03] the monument and you're looking north,
[36:06] [clears throat] that's that's the the
[36:08] white or the uh glass window that you'll
[36:11] see and you'll be able to see out onto
[36:13] the rest of the grounds.
[36:16] Uh as well as the grounds, the the
[36:19] windows coming in and out.
[36:22] Next one, Silly.
[36:24] Okay. Again, this is now looking at the
[36:30] uh looking at it on the north side. On
[36:32] the left side, that'll be looking north.
[36:35] So, you'll be able to see an awful lot
[36:37] of the area
[36:39] uh outside of the of outside of the uh
[36:43] the building itself, looking both north
[36:46] as well as uh northeast and northwest,
[36:51] looking at the rest of it. And what you
[36:55] don't see and uh are the the as you walk
[36:59] in on the right hand side will be a
[37:04] bathroom restroom and there will be a
[37:07] storage area next to it and
[37:11] um it'll be an ADA restroom.
[37:16] Uh and the storage area is going to be
[37:18] for the pale battlefield primarily to
[37:21] have different artifacts that are that
[37:23] we have that they have. And uh we want
[37:27] to where that where you see the person
[37:30] standing there by the window uh on the
[37:32] east side. We're going to we're looking
[37:34] to have uh some cases that will have the
[37:39] artifacts that again the Paleo
[37:42] battlefield has and those cases can hold
[37:45] the artifacts and there may be some room
[37:47] maybe some some bookshelves. We're
[37:50] looking to have some bookshelves above
[37:51] it. So again depending on what we have
[37:55] to uh show
[38:00] as far as the battle itself is
[38:02] concerned.
[38:04] Um and that's a pretty good I think
[38:07] indication of what the entire
[38:10] um center will be looking like.
[38:14] >> Sounds good. Um does anybody want to ask
[38:18] questions or make comments? Uh I have a
[38:20] few questions and comments myself. Um,
[38:22] do you want I'm going to go first
[38:23] though?
[38:25] Okay. Well, first off, I think it looks
[38:27] great and as you know, I've been, you
[38:29] know, very interested in this and the
[38:30] history of it. Uh, send you some my
[38:32] ideas and renderings. Uh in terms of
[38:37] uh you know that front porch area uh for
[38:41] times when the heritage center is
[38:44] closed, would it make sense to have some
[38:48] uh signage on the outside so that people
[38:50] can read some of the history of the
[38:53] monument of you know the battle without
[38:55] the ability to walk in to the heritage
[38:58] center itself? We are looking to put in
[39:01] put [clears throat]
[39:02] on the outside some signage with regard
[39:04] to that.
[39:05] >> Okay. And then what are the actual hours
[39:08] of the heritage center and how will it
[39:10] be kept open? Will it be done by being
[39:13] staffed or will it be done you know
[39:15] based on certain times a day dawn till
[39:18] dusk? What do you
[39:19] >> dawn to dusk? Excuse me. [clears throat]
[39:22] No. Uh we're looking maybe 10 to 4. I
[39:24] mean some of these things still have to
[39:26] be worked out.
[39:27] >> Okay. But 10 to 4, not every day of the
[39:29] week, but maybe Wednesday to Sunday.
[39:31] >> Okay.
[39:32] >> Uh [clears throat] so Monday and Tuesday
[39:33] wouldn't be open, but Wednesday to
[39:35] Sunday, those are the times that we're
[39:37] looking at, but again, nothing's written
[39:40] in stone.
[39:40] >> Okay.
[39:42] And then,
[39:44] you know, one of the things I did
[39:45] discuss with you before was, you know,
[39:47] we I don't know about all burough
[39:49] council, but I know a number of
[39:50] counselors
[39:52] were hoping that we could get some sort
[39:53] of restrooms that were accessible to the
[39:57] public on from the outside of the
[39:58] building so that we don't have to plop a
[40:02] portaotty on hallowed ground, right?
[40:05] uh so that individuals who are maybe
[40:08] visiting the grave or visiting the
[40:09] battlefield during times that aren't
[40:12] times that the heritage center are open
[40:14] would still be able to use the
[40:15] restrooms. And I'm guessing that you
[40:18] guys thought it wasn't a great idea
[40:20] because you know of the potential for
[40:22] vandalism or graffiti, but I don't know
[40:25] that that's the case with the other
[40:27] restroom by the ball field which is also
[40:28] on the Pale Memorial Association
[40:30] grounds. So what are your your thoughts?
[40:33] And the other thing I was thinking as
[40:35] well is if you were to not have a door
[40:38] to the restroom on the inside, that
[40:40] would give you more space forformational
[40:43] signs and more display cases instead of
[40:45] wasting that space with a door to a
[40:48] restroom. Um, so would you guys be
[40:51] consider consider being open to that?
[40:54] Um, I know in the past we've been from
[40:56] my perspective good partners to the PMA
[40:59] and vice versa. Uh, you know, we
[41:01] maintain some of these grounds. Uh, you
[41:03] know, if you do have a restroom in there
[41:06] during the winter time, in all
[41:07] likelihood, you're going to have to heat
[41:08] it somehow.
[41:10] Is the burrow going to be paying for
[41:11] that energy? I I don't know who
[41:13] currently is paying for the portaotty. I
[41:15] would assume it's the burrow is paying
[41:16] for that portaotty as well.
[41:17] >> The portaotti is on the on the pale
[41:19] battlefield grounds.
[41:20] >> Right. But are you paying for it?
[41:21] >> No, you are.
[41:22] >> We are. Yes.
[41:23] >> Right.
[41:24] >> Because it's on your grounds,
[41:25] >> right?
[41:26] >> It's on the pale battlefield grounds.
[41:28] And because it is, that's another reason
[41:30] why we thought it wasn't necessary to
[41:32] have it because you have the the the
[41:34] porta potty there. The the restroom that
[41:38] you mentioned at the ball field, I don't
[41:40] think that's open during the time when
[41:42] the games are not being played.
[41:44] >> That's a good point. Yeah. Not sure
[41:45] about that.
[41:45] >> So, I think that's the that's going on
[41:48] there. and and obviously when when uh
[41:52] and we're looking to have the the um
[41:56] center
[41:58] uh personed
[42:02] um by an individual every day that it's
[42:06] open.
[42:07] >> Just a a quick note. Um [clears throat]
[42:10] excuse me. Speaking as also a member of
[42:11] the Paley Battlefield Preservation Fund
[42:13] board, it is my understanding that Jim
[42:15] Christ is planning on leaving that
[42:17] portaotti there even with the bathroom
[42:19] that is there um in the the PMA Heritage
[42:22] Center.
[42:24] >> So I don't mean to speak for him, but as
[42:25] far as I know in our meetings, that's
[42:26] what he said,
[42:27] >> right? But I guess my concern is
[42:30] why, you know, if we have this the
[42:33] ability to have a restroom, why would we
[42:35] also want a portaotty and why would we
[42:37] also want to pay for that? And if the
[42:39] burough is considering,
[42:41] you know, in the future installing a
[42:43] restroom,
[42:45] that might be potentially money that we
[42:47] wouldn't necessarily have to donate to
[42:49] the PMA, right? Uh, you know, I want to
[42:52] see the project succeed. I want to see
[42:54] Burough Council be in complete support
[42:56] of it. Uh, and you know, when equipment
[42:59] breaks in when like the playground, when
[43:02] the slide broke, the burrow stepped in
[43:04] and we, you know, fixed that, right? I
[43:06] think we've been pretty good partners
[43:07] and
[43:09] we helped you guys get this grant,
[43:10] right? I don't know if it would have
[43:11] been possible for you to even achieve
[43:12] this grant and now it kind of seems like
[43:16] the residents of the bureau aren't being
[43:18] served as well as they could be if they
[43:20] had the ability to access this and the
[43:22] people who are interested in the history
[43:23] of the town. If people wanted to come
[43:25] visit the battlefield or visit the
[43:28] grave,
[43:30] they might not want to use a portaotti,
[43:31] right? And I don't think it's a good way
[43:33] to honor our patriots by plopping a
[43:35] portaotty on hollow ground. Right.
[43:38] >> Well, agreed. But the portaotti is there
[43:42] at this point. It's been there for a
[43:43] number of years
[43:45] >> and I assume that it's been been
[43:47] utilized. Um, as far as the as far as
[43:50] using this particular restroom as a
[43:54] restroom outside of the hours that were
[43:56] open,
[43:58] that creates a number of issues, I
[44:00] think, from our standpoint. And I know
[44:03] that the people on on Remington, and I
[44:06] don't know if they're
[44:08] >> Yes. Okay. I I think they'll have a few
[44:11] things to say with regard to that as
[44:12] well. Um it it does create an issue
[44:16] where
[44:18] uh
[44:20] I I think it it can open it up to as you
[44:24] said vandalism and and that's that's an
[44:26] issue that we don't want to get involved
[44:28] with and if we leave it open only when people are there
[44:34] uh again the portaotty would still be
[44:36] there and they could use it but to uh
[44:40] open it up from the outside Then we're
[44:43] talking about maintenance on a daily
[44:45] basis basically. And who's going to pick up the bill on that
[44:49] one? Uh
[44:50] >> who do you plan to have maintain it
[44:52] >> in its current state? Who will will you
[44:55] be hiring staff to
[44:56] >> We will have to hire someone and it's
[44:58] going to have to be maintained but and
[45:00] we're not looking to to pay people to be
[45:03] there from 10 to 4. We're hoping that
[45:07] once a month somebody from the community
[45:11] can come up whether it's somebody from
[45:14] the Paley Memorial Association
[45:16] Historical Commission, you know, there's
[45:18] a number or the Paley Battlefield, uh,
[45:21] somebody could sit in there. If if any
[45:24] one of you would like to do that, it's,
[45:26] you know, that would be fine, too. Uh,
[45:28] but [clears throat] basically keeping an
[45:30] eye on what's going on. We're going to
[45:32] have to have the electric eye outside.
[45:35] uh keeping an eye on it from that
[45:37] standpoint, making sure people aren't
[45:39] climbing up on the roof or whatever. And
[45:41] uh although we haven't had any issues
[45:43] with regard to the other buildings that
[45:45] are on our property, the house, the
[45:47] garage, the municipal building, we
[45:50] haven't had any issues with regard to
[45:52] that. We hope we wouldn't have any
[45:53] issues here. We're looking at I mean the roof is going to be 14 and a half
[45:57] feet. So um those are those are some of
[46:01] the things that we have to be concerned
[46:04] about and and uh that's why again for
[46:09] opening it up I I you know to the
[46:11] outside
[46:14] >> I mean other communities do this even
[46:15] Greenree Park, East Ocean Park they do
[46:17] it. They uh I know the uh restrooms by
[46:20] the ball field, they have um Wi-Fi
[46:23] enabled locks and you know custodian has
[46:26] a key when um so somebody can unlock it
[46:29] with an app and it hasn't been a
[46:31] problem. I know Green Street Park has an
[46:33] automatic lock that opens at various
[46:34] times and if you're in the restroom when
[46:37] it locks there's a button that you can
[46:39] push to still get out. Um so you're not
[46:42] trapped in there. Right. Um
[46:44] >> don't want to be stuck.
[46:45] >> Right. Right. But I I don't know for the
[46:48] community and for other visitors I would
[46:50] highly recommend that you guys give it
[46:52] another thought and you know
[46:53] >> we have thought about it and but again
[46:55] the expense involved in doing it and the
[46:58] possibility of people just wanting to
[47:00] use the bathroom. Well again there's
[47:03] >> that's that is a possibility that they
[47:04] might just want to use the bathroom but
[47:06] you know but that's kind of community
[47:08] stuff. Um the other thing though is um
[47:12] you know and that's just being a good
[47:13] neighbor kind of opening your house to
[47:15] your community. But um you off you have
[47:17] often mentioned the the heritage um
[47:20] center in Brandy Wine and I'm curious
[47:23] what their hours are and if they're
[47:24] manned because
[47:26] um
[47:27] >> well
[47:30] >> Marshall I don't believe are they
[47:32] manned. Brand new brand new on
[47:34] Battlefield.
[47:35] >> It's not.
[47:36] >> Yeah. So, I mean, it seems to me that
[47:39] it's possible that if you're expecting
[47:41] to have somebody in there when it's open
[47:44] and you won't be open without somebody,
[47:45] it could be a beautiful building that
[47:48] isn't utilized enough if you're counting
[47:50] on volunteer hours. So, I think you guys
[47:53] are on the right track. It's beautiful.
[47:55] It's welldesigned. Um, but I think
[47:58] you're probably going to need to think
[48:00] about how to be more open. um because
[48:04] what's the sense of creating something
[48:06] that we're not um you know we're not
[48:09] making accessible and as Brendan said we
[48:12] have people in our community who are
[48:15] history buffs who um will want to enjoy
[48:18] it but at the same time we also have
[48:20] people who just love that park and maybe
[48:22] they have an emergency. So, you know,
[48:25] it's it I think it all works together to
[48:28] create a space that's welcoming that um
[48:32] adds to the community. So, I there are
[48:34] some things that I you know, as I said,
[48:36] I think you're on the right track, but I
[48:38] think there are some things that you
[48:39] still probably need to work through.
[48:41] >> I I think the difference between what
[48:43] you're talking about is bathrooms at
[48:45] parks and the ballparks and whatever.
[48:48] Those are that is property that is owned
[48:52] by a municipality.
[48:54] This is private property and unless
[48:57] we're
[48:57] >> department used to be completely
[48:58] volunteer and now they only have a
[49:00] handful of volunteers. They're mostly
[49:02] employed staff at this point. Right
[49:04] there time may come when you don't have
[49:06] volunteers to staff this to open it up
[49:08] to sit there for eight hours and then to
[49:11] Zoe's point does it become closed to
[49:13] public? Do we not get to experience that
[49:15] history? uh is something to consider and
[49:18] maybe that is something the bureau looks
[49:20] into and maybe we do have staff that
[49:22] opens it up but I don't know that it's a
[49:25] viable model and if it's not going to be
[49:27] open
[49:29] it's going to be difficult to
[49:33] I I'll say this if we don't have if if
[49:37] you change this model and you say okay
[49:39] we don't have volunteers we're not going
[49:40] to open it up then we never have the
[49:42] ability to use this bathroom we never
[49:44] have the ability for the community to
[49:45] really use it right And I know that's
[49:47] not your intention, but I think you need
[49:49] to look 10 years down the road, too.
[49:52] >> Well, I I I think it's true, but I also
[49:55] think that there's enough people here, I
[49:58] think, who really want this. We've had a
[50:00] number of contributions already, and
[50:02] I've sent a a letter to um the your
[50:06] finance committee, and I think for those
[50:09] of you who are on that, I think you
[50:11] received that from me. and we've got 77
[50:14] people and businesses who've already
[50:16] made contributions. We're looking for a
[50:19] lot more contributions as well. But uh I don't see us having a building and
[50:26] maybe I'm just uh not looking at it
[50:29] correctly, but I don't see us having a
[50:30] building but not having it open. And uh
[50:34] I think we can get a number of people
[50:37] here in the in the community, maybe even
[50:40] outside the community. Willistown
[50:41] surrounds us. I mean, this was part of
[50:43] Willistown Township when and when
[50:45] everything took place back in the Battle
[50:46] of Pey. So, I think we can get people to
[50:50] volunteer once a month
[50:53] uh to come up there from 10 to 4 and we
[50:55] may even open it up more often if we
[50:59] find that it's going to be needed more
[51:01] often. Uh it's it's I think it's going
[51:04] to we're gonna have to contingency plan
[51:06] if you can't
[51:06] >> I'm sorry. Do you have a contingency
[51:08] plan if you can't get volunteers for
[51:10] from 10 to 4?
[51:12] >> Yeah, we're going to call on Burough
[51:13] Council to volunteer.
[51:14] >> Well, I'm I'm being serious, Frank. Um
[51:16] because I think all of us up here have
[51:19] experienced the difficulty of
[51:20] maintaining volunteerism. Um you know,
[51:23] throughout the burrow. So, I I do hope
[51:25] you will consider a contingency plan if
[51:27] you're not able to fully you know,
[51:29] that's you're saying Wednesday to Sunday
[51:32] 10 to 4. That's a lot of hours. Um, and
[51:35] I think we've sort of experienced the
[51:37] heartbreak of of not being able to do
[51:39] things because you just don't have the
[51:41] volunteers that you that you would hope.
[51:44] So, you know, just bring it back to the committee and and think on that one.
[51:49] >> Yeah, I would I will. We will. And we
[51:52] will. Um, I'd like to ask if other
[51:55] members of the board would like to add
[51:59] anything I've said,
[52:02] Chad.
[52:10] I'm Chad Arlington. I've been a lifelong
[52:12] resident here. Grew up here. Matter of
[52:15] fact, I used to walk across for 12
[52:17] years. I walked across those grounds
[52:19] because we lived adjacent, which is now
[52:22] part of Remington. Uh, nobody ever came
[52:26] to Memorial Park except for Ray Steel
[52:29] and Katherine and nobody bothered.
[52:32] Malard is a great place. We were the
[52:34] best well-kept secret for many years
[52:38] until we became the crossroads to the
[52:41] corporate center. Now everybody wants to
[52:44] live here. We have a great town. It's
[52:47] safe. We have a good business community.
[52:50] We
[52:52] have a good public works. We get good
[52:54] snow removal,
[52:56] trash removal. Everybody wants to live
[52:59] here. The memorial grounds have been
[53:01] there. whether it's a private piece of
[53:03] property, but everybody thinks it's part
[53:06] of the burrow and it's a public
[53:08] [clears throat] park. Frank has done
[53:10] wonders since he's been chairman of the
[53:12] grounds committee.
[53:14] We also see now a lot of people using
[53:16] the park to walk their dogs to go down
[53:19] through the woods. I remember when
[53:22] Malvin Prep was a residential school
[53:26] with a pig pen in the woods that the
[53:29] people now walk. So times have changed.
[53:33] Malvin Fire Company, every when the
[53:35] alarm sound, everybody left their
[53:38] businesses locked up and went to help
[53:40] the fight the fires. Volunteerism is
[53:44] fading. It doesn't matter where it is,
[53:47] you know, and it's going to get worse
[53:49] probably because nobody everybody is
[53:51] busy working, raising their families.
[53:54] They don't have time to volunteer. They
[53:56] also put more back on government and
[53:59] think that well I'm paying taxes let
[54:01] them why should I volunteer Malver
[54:04] Memorial Paley Memorial Browns is
[54:06] private property is an asset to this
[54:10] town
[54:12] it's got the ball field at 10 and some
[54:14] acres it's got the ball field the tennis
[54:16] courts the scout cabin it's beautiful
[54:19] when people see it they want to come to
[54:21] here they want the park you guys need to
[54:24] get behind
[54:26] and help
[54:29] the heritage center will take that
[54:32] monument that's on the graves of those
[54:33] 53 men and preserve it.
[54:37] I never saw such little picky stuff to
[54:39] get it worked out. It can be done. The
[54:43] bathrooms, okay, that is an issue. It
[54:46] came up at at a lot of the committee
[54:47] meetings. Okay. We never had bathrooms
[54:51] at the Little League field all the
[54:53] 20some years that I was involved in
[54:55] Little League and Bay Ruth league that
[54:57] had a portaotti. Even now that they have
[54:59] the restrooms, the portaotti stays
[55:03] because they can't be open all the time.
[55:06] So there has to be something there. The
[55:08] portaotti that's at the memorial
[55:10] grounds, that's not ours. That's the
[55:12] battlefield. We were lucky enough. We
[55:15] were lucky to have a piece of
[55:17] revolutionary history right here in our
[55:20] town.
[55:22] We should be honored that there's 53 men
[55:24] that made it possible for Malvin to be
[55:26] so great today.
[55:29] Frank has done a great job along with
[55:31] Jay and so many others that have
[55:35] brought the grounds up to stuff.
[55:38] It's expensive
[55:40] to put roadways in and stuff.
[55:44] I would urge you
[55:46] to get behind this and help. There's a
[55:49] lot of things you got to crawl before
[55:51] you can walk. There's a lot of things we
[55:54] don't know and you don't know. It's
[55:56] council.
[55:58] But we do the best we can. But we got a
[56:01] piece of history that you need to
[56:03] preserve. We were lucky enough to to
[56:06] have Malvin Prep sell that property to
[56:09] the battlefield which you have to
[56:11] oversee or are in control of. I guess
[56:15] I urge you stop being so picky. Let's
[56:19] get behind this and get it done. It's going to be an asset the center.
[56:24] Maybe we could even get a plaque with
[56:27] the 53 names that we have are lucky
[56:29] enough to know that they call out when
[56:32] we do the reefs around America once a
[56:35] year.
[56:37] Don't be so technical.
[56:39] Frank has done a wonderful job and and I
[56:42] give Frank credit and Jay and so many
[56:45] others, Bill and Jim.
[56:49] It sure has changed a lot. And I don't
[56:52] know whether your volunteerism and keep
[56:53] it open. I know there are some places of
[56:55] police open and closed to restrooms. I
[56:58] think that's in East Co.
[57:01] Thank you.
[57:01] >> Thank you. And just for the record, bro
[57:03] Council is very much in favor of this
[57:05] pro project. We want to see it succeed
[57:08] though, right? And
[57:10] >> well, not only that, we just to even try
[57:13] to get the grant, we had to set up
[57:14] special meetings. We're actually being
[57:16] sued because we were trying to help you
[57:18] guys so much. So it's Yeah. Uh, so
[57:23] everybody likes to sue today, but we
[57:25] were very much in favor of this project,
[57:26] but we want to see it succeed. We want
[57:28] to honor our Patriots. We want to make
[57:30] sure that it it can do all the things
[57:33] that we want it to do and that we hope
[57:35] it it can accomplish. So, and I think
[57:38] Frank's done a great job. We has
[57:40] communicated well with us and I've given
[57:42] him ideas and suggestions as well and I
[57:44] think he's taken them into account. So,
[57:46] I I'm not trying to, you know, hurt
[57:49] Frank or his feelings or anything of
[57:51] that nature. I just want to make sure
[57:52] this is a project that can be successful
[57:55] and that we can have money in the bank
[57:57] that we can give you guys in the future
[57:58] to accomplish other goals. Right.
[58:02] >> And is it fair to say um this isn't just
[58:06] a Melbourne project,
[58:09] >> right?
[58:11] >> You live in Willistown,
[58:13] right?
[58:14] speak into my
[58:15] >> and and the president of the president
[58:17] of the uh preservation fund doesn't live
[58:20] in Malver all volunteer.
[58:24] So this is a at least a regional park
[58:28] versus a Melvin park at least that
[58:32] probably national because I keep meet
[58:34] whenever I walk there I live in right
[58:37] next to it. Um,
[58:40] on occasion I meet people that are from
[58:42] all over the United States.
[58:45] I' I've met a a father and a couple of
[58:48] sons. Andrea was with me on that one.
[58:51] From Idaho.
[58:54] I met a couple from down south. I think
[58:56] it was Mississippi or Alabama.
[59:00] People are know about this. And if you
[59:03] watch that PBS special on the
[59:05] Revolutionary War,
[59:08] he did a great job for for maybe a
[59:12] couple of minutes, whatever it was,
[59:14] featuring that battle and it's right in
[59:17] our backyard.
[59:19] Not many burrows or towns or cities have
[59:23] something like that.
[59:25] Uh so what we're trying to do here is
[59:27] protect the history for the next
[59:30] generations. That's one of the main
[59:32] goals, right? Which is the the monument,
[59:37] >> right? And then provide more information
[59:40] and maybe artifacts
[59:43] that have been found on the property
[59:47] will be in display and and explained
[59:51] what you're looking at.
[59:53] So,
[59:55] um I think I I I give Frank and and his
[59:59] team a lot of a lot of credit. This is
[1:00:03] uh and and my colleagues. We're all in
[1:00:06] support. Okay. Thank you.
[1:00:09] >> Yeah. And and as Brandon said, without
[1:00:12] your support, we wouldn't have got the
[1:00:14] grant. I mean, that's a given. We know
[1:00:16] that. And we appreciate all the support
[1:00:19] we we have been getting over the years.
[1:00:22] I mean, it's not just the last couple
[1:00:24] years. It's been a long time.
[1:00:27] >> And I think the the the the field for
[1:00:31] volunteers is much bigger than the
[1:00:33] burrow.
[1:00:35] >> And I would agree. But also where you
[1:00:37] live, where Jay lives over in Tidewater,
[1:00:40] >> I think there's a number of people there
[1:00:42] that we could look to get as volunteers
[1:00:45] to help out. So Frank,
[1:00:48] >> just because I know we have another presentation. Um, do you mind if
[1:00:53] I open it up to public comment?
[1:00:55] >> Well, I want
[1:00:56] >> Oh, I'm sorry.
[1:00:57] >> If I may, Bill Shoemaker, I'm the
[1:00:58] president of the PMA. I just wanted to
[1:01:01] say very quickly, the partnership
[1:01:03] between PMA and the bureau is of
[1:01:05] longstanding and we deeply appreciate
[1:01:07] everything that the bureau does day in
[1:01:09] and day out for us. and we are in no way
[1:01:12] diminishing what's been going on here
[1:01:14] and and the support that you have and
[1:01:18] clearly there are some things that we
[1:01:20] need to work out but we are going to
[1:01:22] have the center open the best possible
[1:01:25] hours we can. Now we are actually
[1:01:27] receiving a lot of commentary from
[1:01:29] people who want to see it closed more
[1:01:32] because they don't want to see people
[1:01:33] gathering around it. They don't want
[1:01:35] crowds. They are requesting that we
[1:01:38] codify that the bathroom not be
[1:01:40] available to the general public because
[1:01:42] they don't want people hanging around
[1:01:43] and so forth.
[1:01:45] These are all issues that have to be
[1:01:47] reconciled. But um you know having the restroom available to the general
[1:01:53] public.
[1:01:55] Obviously there's cleaning and
[1:01:56] maintenance and all those kinds of
[1:01:57] issues which would be there to a greater
[1:01:59] or lesser extent regardless. One of the
[1:02:02] challenges that we fa that we face and
[1:02:04] this is you know pure mechanics. We're a
[1:02:08] private property that functions as a
[1:02:10] public park. We pay liability insurance
[1:02:14] out the years because of that and having
[1:02:17] a public restroom available on the
[1:02:19] grounds is going to again increase those
[1:02:22] issues. So we have to address those but
[1:02:25] we have no um institutional hard line
[1:02:29] saying it's not going to be a public
[1:02:30] restroom. We need to work those issues
[1:02:32] out and you know moving a door is is not
[1:02:35] a huge issue in terms of the planning
[1:02:37] and so forth going forward. We are
[1:02:39] committed to having this open as much as
[1:02:41] possible to be available to the public
[1:02:45] reasonable hours. The grounds are you
[1:02:47] know closed from dusk to dawn. So it's
[1:02:50] not going to be a nighttime thing. We
[1:02:52] don't want to have a lot of bright
[1:02:54] lighting. We don't want to do more
[1:02:55] paving than is absolutely necessary. But
[1:02:58] we clearly are working with the burrow
[1:03:01] to make it work for everybody
[1:03:04] that's involved. And we are going to
[1:03:06] have a lot of work to get volunteers to
[1:03:09] cover those hours, but we're not going
[1:03:11] to reduce the open time. I mean, Frank
[1:03:13] and I will take shifts to be sure that
[1:03:16] it's open. I know Frank looking forward
[1:03:18] to it. Uh, but I certainly am as well.
[1:03:21] But, you know, we really want to
[1:03:23] emphasize how important our partnership
[1:03:24] with the burrow is.
[1:03:28] >> Did you hear that?
[1:03:28] >> No, I did.
[1:03:29] >> Wasn't just me. But emphasize how
[1:03:32] important our partnership is with the
[1:03:33] burrow. And we certainly want to be
[1:03:36] supportive of the burrow's efforts as
[1:03:39] well as the burrow support of what PMA
[1:03:41] is doing. So, thank you very much.
[1:03:42] >> Thank you. All right. With that, I'll
[1:03:45] open up to public comment. Uh, Mr.
[1:03:47] Sharpless.
[1:03:56] Vicky Sharpless 328 East Broad. Um, real
[1:03:59] quickly, um, I just think it would be
[1:04:02] wonderful if we could have a bathroom
[1:04:03] available. I I think that would be the
[1:04:05] best of, you know, of options. But if
[1:04:08] it's not going to happen, we can make do
[1:04:10] with with a portaotti. I don't think
[1:04:13] that that's should be something that
[1:04:14] should stand in the way of them
[1:04:17] continuing their work and spending a
[1:04:20] million more hours figuring out how can
[1:04:22] we use a bathroom, how can we keep it
[1:04:23] clean, how can we make it secure when we
[1:04:26] do have another option. We have the
[1:04:28] Paley Battlefield offering to maintain
[1:04:31] and keep that portaotty. It's, you know
[1:04:34] what, 100 ft away from where this
[1:04:36] building's going to be. It's not that
[1:04:38] big of an issue. Um, and I'm just
[1:04:40] speaking. I don't have anything to do
[1:04:41] with PMA. I just live in the burrow.
[1:04:44] I've lived here my whole life. And I
[1:04:46] just think that it's an issue that's
[1:04:49] almost a non-issue at this point. Thank
[1:04:51] you.
[1:04:51] >> Thank you, Mr. Buckley.
[1:04:53] >> Thank you.
[1:04:58] » Okay.
[1:05:05] » You can come. Yeah. Sorry.
[1:05:06] >> All right. Um we're making putting this
[1:05:08] beautiful building up there and here's a
[1:05:11] chance to have um regular um bathroom
[1:05:16] because that sink sits there look like
[1:05:18] crap and you're having people come from
[1:05:20] other towns in here and look at that and
[1:05:23] got to use a port
[1:05:25] and maybe it's time the burr and then
[1:05:30] work together and make this happen
[1:05:32] because this town gets a lot of grants
[1:05:34] and stuff. There's money can be found
[1:05:36] somewhere to make this happen. But I
[1:05:39] mean, how would you like it? You bring
[1:05:42] your kids up there and oh, you got a
[1:05:44] nice you talk to this and um then they
[1:05:46] close or whatever. It's about time we
[1:05:48] get do it with portable Johns in there.
[1:05:51] We were talking about the park and up
[1:05:54] here at the B up in county that should
[1:05:57] be a nice toilet like um Green Park got
[1:06:01] and we're spending all the I'm
[1:06:02] disappointed. I challenge anybody out
[1:06:04] here in the audience, go down and see
[1:06:05] the way that working. It ain't as nice
[1:06:07] as it is for the money we're spending.
[1:06:09] Thank you.
[1:06:11] >> And for the record, we did help the PMA
[1:06:14] get grant funding for this and the
[1:06:16] portaotti at Randolph Woods is for the
[1:06:18] people doing the work on Randolph Woods.
[1:06:19] So, Mr. Petty John 139 Church. Um, strangely for
[1:06:30] once in a while, Brendan, I agree with
[1:06:32] you in so many facets on this, uh,
[1:06:35] building, it's beautiful. It's gorgeous.
[1:06:38] And as a father who takes his young kids
[1:06:40] up to that area regularly, and also as a
[1:06:43] scout leader who participates in that
[1:06:45] area regularly,
[1:06:47] to use the 100 ft away from his
[1:06:50] brand new building. It's a technical
[1:06:52] term.
[1:06:54] >> It is. Um, but to use that plastic porta
[1:06:58] potty that's 100 ft away from a brand
[1:07:00] new building when we have the
[1:07:02] opportunity to open it up to the public,
[1:07:05] to the young people, because let's be
[1:07:07] honest, guys, um, there's not a lot of
[1:07:10] young people sitting in this room,
[1:07:12] there's not a lot of young people on the
[1:07:13] PMA. You want to keep kids interested in
[1:07:16] history and keep them coming to see a
[1:07:17] monument, they got to want to go to the
[1:07:19] building and they're going to go there
[1:07:20] and say, "Hey, what's this?" And they're
[1:07:21] going to ask questions. But when you
[1:07:23] say, "Nope, you can't go in there. it's
[1:07:25] not open today, then they don't care.
[1:07:27] History disappears when you don't pass
[1:07:29] that information on. And that monument
[1:07:30] can be perfectly protected and nobody's
[1:07:32] going to see it and nobody's going to
[1:07:34] care about it in 25 years, 30 years.
[1:07:36] They just won't because they won't know
[1:07:37] about it. Just open the damn open Sorry,
[1:07:40] Brennan. Open the bathrooms up. It's so
[1:07:42] easy. It's a It's And and Chad, I hear
[1:07:45] you. It's ticky tacky stuff, but these
[1:07:47] little things, they can build up and you have to answer these
[1:07:50] questions. You have to hit all the
[1:07:52] little things and knock down all the all
[1:07:54] the dominoes so that everybody's on the
[1:07:56] same page. I I I think we really need to
[1:07:59] do this PMA. I think you need to
[1:08:01] reconsider it to sit there talk about
[1:08:03] what a great town this is. It's an
[1:08:04] awesome town. It's amazing town. It's
[1:08:05] wonderful. It's awesome. And I agree.
[1:08:07] I'm never leaving Malvin Burrow ever.
[1:08:10] But you can't then turn around and say,
[1:08:11] "But it's not safe enough to leave a
[1:08:13] bathroom open during the day." That
[1:08:15] doesn't make any sense. That's both
[1:08:16] you're talking both sides. So, uh, you
[1:08:19] know, I'm just speaking as a community
[1:08:20] member with young pe young children and,
[1:08:23] uh, how helpful bath, not to mention
[1:08:25] special needs kid who, uh, using a porta
[1:08:28] potty is always a challenge. Um,
[1:08:31] because, well, let's be honest, they're
[1:08:32] gross even when they're clean. Um, and I
[1:08:34] use them every day on the job site. So,
[1:08:36] uh, but they're gross when they're
[1:08:37] clean. Just it's it's stupid. It seems
[1:08:40] stupid chat. It is ticky tacky and it
[1:08:42] seems dumb, but the change for the
[1:08:44] community, it will have an impact.
[1:08:46] That's all. Thank you. All right. Thank
[1:08:47] you. Uh Mr. House,
[1:08:59] Matt House, 105 Woodland Avenue. Um I
[1:09:03] was thinking about the the bathrooms as
[1:09:06] well and what uh one of the gentlemen
[1:09:08] said about the insurance and it being uh
[1:09:11] private property
[1:09:13] um owned and insured that way. And um
[1:09:17] they are going to have to, you know,
[1:09:19] talk to their insurance agent and find
[1:09:22] out from the underwriters at the company
[1:09:25] um whether or not they can
[1:09:29] and if the insurance company will be
[1:09:31] able to insure them with a public
[1:09:35] 247 bathroom like that. Um that that
[1:09:40] does change their underwriting. And so
[1:09:43] if if they were just to put it in and
[1:09:46] the insurance company finds out, they
[1:09:48] may turn around and say, "Eh, we can't
[1:09:50] do this." Or their insurance rates
[1:09:54] jump way up and, you know, that's an
[1:09:57] expense that they weren't looking for.
[1:10:00] So, you know, that that is a that is a
[1:10:03] real concern. um you know so um I I
[1:10:09] would say you know if if you're going to
[1:10:11] look into this call your insurance agent
[1:10:13] first get that answer. Um, and then the
[1:10:17] other thing I was thinking, you know,
[1:10:18] with that um with that tree that you
[1:10:22] were going to cut down, um, you know,
[1:10:24] could the the lumber be mil and use part
[1:10:30] of that lumber in the construction of,
[1:10:34] you know, maybe some of the beams on the
[1:10:35] outside or, you know, just using a part
[1:10:39] of what was cut down as,
[1:10:44] yeah, something in the building. I I
[1:10:46] think that'd be kind of cool. But
[1:10:48] >> so we actually did think about uh so we
[1:10:51] had the stream bank stabilization
[1:10:52] project and we talked about maybe trying
[1:10:54] to use the trees that we had to remove
[1:10:56] for that project and do what you've
[1:10:58] suggested for this project. Uh and it
[1:11:00] sounds like you have to wait at least
[1:11:02] like couple of years for the wood to
[1:11:05] dry. So it doesn't sound like that would
[1:11:06] be feasible. Um, you know, Frank and I
[1:11:09] have talked in the past about
[1:11:10] potentially the burrow, you know,
[1:11:13] renting other portions of uh the PMA
[1:11:16] grounds that so we can do things like
[1:11:18] maintain the tennis court. Uh maybe I I
[1:11:22] would assume our insurance would cover
[1:11:23] that if we were to do something like
[1:11:24] that. And then the other thing too would
[1:11:26] be maybe we rent that space of the
[1:11:29] bathroom from the PMA [clears throat]
[1:11:30] and we put that on our insurance. But
[1:11:32] these are all conversations I'll have
[1:11:33] with Frank when the time comes.
[1:11:37] Mr. Schmidt,
[1:11:38] >> I also just want to say I don't think
[1:11:40] anybody expects a 24-hour bathroom. No,
[1:11:42] [laughter]
[1:11:43] >> it's not Waw Wa, but just when people
[1:11:45] are using the park.
[1:11:47] >> Yeah, I just I know we've had uh
[1:11:49] discussion about volunteers and
[1:11:50] volunteerism. And I know that's been a
[1:11:52] concern, but one group that I have not
[1:11:54] heard really um that we're going to be
[1:11:56] relying on is the Pale Battlefield
[1:11:57] Preservation Fund um board. Um the PMA
[1:12:01] board is 11 members of which I believe
[1:12:04] I'm the youngest. However, the PBPF
[1:12:05] board um h I want to say at least half
[1:12:08] of those dozen or so members are younger
[1:12:10] than me and they are champing at the bit
[1:12:12] to be able to find places to volunteer
[1:12:14] and to spend their time and they love
[1:12:16] their history. They're very
[1:12:17] enthusiastic. So, I know they're all
[1:12:19] looking forward to helping out with that
[1:12:21] as well.
[1:12:22] >> All right. Thank you.
[1:12:23] >> Uh sir with the white shirt, I don't
[1:12:25] know that we've met if you don't mind
[1:12:27] just stating your name for the uh
[1:12:28] meeting minutes.
[1:12:31] Yeah, I'm Kevin Julie and I live on
[1:12:33] Remington Lane uh behind the memorial
[1:12:36] grounds. Uh and I want to say um we're
[1:12:39] fully in support of the center. Um we
[1:12:41] think they've done a great job. Uh we've
[1:12:42] had some discussions with Bill and Jim
[1:12:44] and and Frank about the designs. Uh
[1:12:48] they've listened to our concerns. It's
[1:12:50] been a it's been a great process. And
[1:12:52] you raised the concerns of the residents
[1:12:54] of Melvin. There are neighbors, I think,
[1:12:56] who would be very concerned to the
[1:12:58] burough staff about the plans. Um, and
[1:13:00] we're waiting for answers back on zoning
[1:13:03] and on emergency access. So, we hope
[1:13:05] that we'll get answers to those at some
[1:13:07] point in this process. Thanks.
[1:13:09] >> Thank you. All right. Anybody else?
[1:13:12] All right. Well, thank you and good job,
[1:13:14] Frank. And thank you everyone for uh
[1:13:17] chiming in. I appreciate it.
[1:13:29] All right. Uh with that, let's move on
[1:13:31] to our next uh agenda item, which is uh consider the
[1:13:37] application of DEFRA LLC for
[1:13:39] preliminary/final subdivision and land
[1:13:41] development plan. Uh Wendy, do you want
[1:13:44] to take us through this? Or Dan, who do
[1:13:45] you think would be more appropriate?
[1:13:49] Um, well, I think I Dan, do you want to
[1:13:53] run through your f the letter you just
[1:13:55] did um a few days ago?
[1:13:59] >> Is that the best thing to to um
[1:14:03] >> that's fine. I'm happy to talk about the
[1:14:05] applicants here too um to uh to talk
[1:14:08] about it here. Um,
[1:14:13] so you want me to jump into my letter or
[1:14:15] you want to have them kind of introduce
[1:14:16] your job here? I know you guys are all
[1:14:18] familiar with it here. Tell me, tell me
[1:14:20] what you prefer, you guys.
[1:14:21] >> Uh, maybe maybe Mr. Carr would like to
[1:14:23] go ahead. you've um we've been through
[1:14:26] your letter a few times and maybe if he
[1:14:30] just goes if if council has questions
[1:14:33] about
[1:14:34] what he says about your letter then you
[1:14:37] can respond. Um I think that would
[1:14:40] probably be more efficient at at this
[1:14:42] point. So, if you want to go, if you
[1:14:45] want to talk about where you think you
[1:14:48] are in terms of compliance with
[1:14:52] everything, including Dan's most recent
[1:14:55] letter, which had a a few items on it,
[1:15:00] um, and then you and Dan can field
[1:15:03] questions as to the details of those.
[1:15:07] >> Thank you so much for being here
[1:15:08] tonight. My name is Owen Carr. I'm a
[1:15:11] member of Duffernar LLC, the developer
[1:15:13] of this project. Um, tonight we bring to
[1:15:17] you a 5,337
[1:15:21] square foot ground floor commercial with
[1:15:23] 14 upper floor dwelling units located on
[1:15:25] King Street at Bridge Street.
[1:15:28] Um, we are proposing a 30 space parking
[1:15:32] lot uh off Woodland Avenue in the rear
[1:15:35] of the building.
[1:15:37] Um this is a plan that I think has been
[1:15:39] seen before, but this is a new
[1:15:41] application. Um we're coming to you
[1:15:44] today with a plan that has um no
[1:15:47] variances and I believe five waiverss um
[1:15:51] that were supported by the planning
[1:15:54] commission with um conditions. Um we
[1:15:58] have support from the um shade tree
[1:16:01] commission for our work that we're doing
[1:16:03] along King Street to improve the
[1:16:05] streetscape. Um we have support from the
[1:16:08] Minne Fire Company um and have addressed
[1:16:10] concerns that they have regarding access
[1:16:13] and the ability to address fires. Um the
[1:16:17] waiverss that we requested from the
[1:16:19] planning commission um were of a minor
[1:16:22] nature and we uh went through them
[1:16:25] pretty carefully with the planning
[1:16:26] commission over several meetings um and
[1:16:29] I think worked through uh the details.
[1:16:32] The main point I want to make tonight is
[1:16:34] that throughout this project, our goal
[1:16:37] has been listening to the community. We
[1:16:39] were looking at a blank piece of land
[1:16:42] that was a real eyesore at the base of
[1:16:44] Brid Street. And my father and I said,
[1:16:46] you know, we want to give something back
[1:16:47] to the burrow. We want to have a
[1:16:48] statement piece. When people drive over
[1:16:50] Brid Street and into the burrow, there's
[1:16:52] something that the burrow can be proud
[1:16:53] of rather than a vacant lot. Um, and
[1:16:57] through the process, we've decreased the
[1:17:00] number of units. We've oriented the
[1:17:02] parking. We've changed buffers. We've
[1:17:05] done a numerous numerous changes. Every
[1:17:07] time we received a comment, we took it
[1:17:08] in. We listened and we made improvements
[1:17:11] we feel to the plan that we have today.
[1:17:14] Um so I'm happy to walk through Dan's
[1:17:17] letter. I think um of the open design
[1:17:20] items, everything has been addressed
[1:17:22] that I'm aware of Dan. Um but we can
[1:17:25] certainly go through it in in detail. Um
[1:17:29] the uh waiverss that were requested and
[1:17:32] recommended for approval by the um
[1:17:35] planning commission have to do with the
[1:17:38] application being viewed as a
[1:17:39] preliminary
[1:17:41] which is a pretty common request that is
[1:17:44] made. There is another variance waiver
[1:17:47] that was requested regarding the cartway
[1:17:49] width of King Street. Um given the
[1:17:52] nature of the road, there is a part of
[1:17:54] the ordinance that would require greater
[1:17:56] setback than what we have proposed. As a
[1:17:58] result, we're trying to keep in the
[1:18:00] character of the burrow and it would set
[1:18:03] the building further back than any other
[1:18:04] building on King Street to a buildout
[1:18:06] width that would never be done in that
[1:18:08] part of the burrow um in given its
[1:18:10] historic nature. Uh we have also
[1:18:13] requested a waiver um regarding curb
[1:18:16] height. The current ordinance requires
[1:18:18] an 8 inch curb height which is greater
[1:18:20] than the recommended ANIE step height of
[1:18:23] seven inches um and is really I think a
[1:18:26] result of former um use of milling and
[1:18:30] graving before paving um which is no
[1:18:33] longer really done um because now you
[1:18:36] mill in lie of of paving over and over.
[1:18:38] So, we're requesting a a waiver from
[1:18:41] that. And then the the tree waiver I
[1:18:43] mentioned as well, due to the
[1:18:44] limitations of the existing building at
[1:18:46] the corner of King and Woodland being up
[1:18:47] against the sidewalk, we don't have the
[1:18:50] ability to install the required street
[1:18:51] trees there. So, we went and worked with
[1:18:54] the Shade Tree Commission and we're uh
[1:18:56] going to do a sort of pilot program for
[1:18:58] the Shade Tree Commission to introduce
[1:19:00] something called a Silva cell system,
[1:19:02] which is a root management system. So
[1:19:04] our hope is that through the use of this
[1:19:06] root management system, we'll be able to
[1:19:07] keep the sidewalks in their intended
[1:19:10] condition, the Silva cell system helps
[1:19:12] direct the root systems down rather than
[1:19:14] up and heaving the sidewalk and creating
[1:19:17] tripping hazards. So the shade tree
[1:19:19] commission is really excited to see how
[1:19:20] that program works and and uh how we are
[1:19:23] able to implement it and approving. And
[1:19:25] then the final um waiver had to do with
[1:19:28] the grading against the property line
[1:19:29] just because of some um limitations we
[1:19:31] have on slope. And then the final um
[1:19:35] item had to do with the stormwater
[1:19:36] management ordinance. And um while we
[1:19:39] have an on-site storm water management
[1:19:41] system designed to handle uh backto-back
[1:19:43] hundredyear storms, uh there is no um
[1:19:46] public storm sewer in the area as the
[1:19:50] parcel is probably the highest point in
[1:19:52] King Street there. Um and so we'll
[1:19:54] require um if there ever were
[1:19:57] backto-back hundredyear storms and we
[1:19:58] were to exceed our on-site storage,
[1:20:00] there's a bubble up that would flow uh
[1:20:02] following the natural path of water onto
[1:20:04] Woodland and then King Street and then
[1:20:05] down. So there's a waiver that's been
[1:20:09] requested for that as well.
[1:20:11] >> All right. Um All right. with that. Dan,
[1:20:13] did you have any feedback for us in
[1:20:15] terms of I guess I don't necessarily
[1:20:18] need you to read the letter or anything,
[1:20:19] but
[1:20:21] >> those are the key items here that
[1:20:23] introduction to the job. I think um I
[1:20:24] think applicant did a good job with that
[1:20:26] and spelled out the waiverss um and uh
[1:20:28] the only thing is the uh the planning
[1:20:30] commission had made a couple
[1:20:31] recommendations um uh for some
[1:20:33] conditions on theirs also um that uh was
[1:20:36] in your packet here and I'm happy to
[1:20:38] discuss those if they if you feel
[1:20:39] necessary for that.
[1:20:40] >> Um
[1:20:41] >> I know you've seen them all. Yeah, we've
[1:20:42] seen them, but uh I guess for the
[1:20:44] interest of the public, maybe we'll
[1:20:46] discuss them.
[1:20:47] >> Okay, so I'll jump over to that waiver
[1:20:50] here. I'm sorry, their the
[1:20:52] recommendation.
[1:20:55] » Well, I just just want to clarify, Dan,
[1:20:58] are you are you in since it's hard to
[1:21:01] read the what's up on the screen, I've
[1:21:03] read it. You've read it. is are are you
[1:21:07] um agreeing that pretty much all of the
[1:21:10] things that you have brought up in your
[1:21:15] prior reviews have been satisfied
[1:21:19] in terms of um you know whatever in
[1:21:23] terms of the storm water and the uh I
[1:21:26] think the one of the prior waiver
[1:21:29] requests had to do with a turning radius
[1:21:32] and that's no longer on the lists,
[1:21:35] right?
[1:21:35] >> Correct.
[1:21:36] >> And um
[1:21:38] >> radi was on the a former plan that's no
[1:21:40] longer in play. Correct.
[1:21:42] >> Yep. And um they've done the truck
[1:21:44] turning templates for the access in and
[1:21:46] out of the site has been that was a big
[1:21:47] issue of making sure that vehicles can
[1:21:50] get in and uh turn around within the
[1:21:52] property and not require to back out
[1:21:54] onto the site. Uh that's been uh that's
[1:21:56] been looked at and the tr truck turning
[1:21:58] templates have been reviewed um and
[1:22:00] approved by both our office and the
[1:22:02] traffic engineer. Um, so that was one of
[1:22:04] the big items. They'll have to do a
[1:22:05] shared uh driveway access easement
[1:22:07] because there are two lots associated
[1:22:09] with this property and uh so they'll
[1:22:11] have a shared access agreement to uh to
[1:22:14] use the parking lot. Um that will get
[1:22:16] reviewed and approved by the solicitor.
[1:22:18] Um
[1:22:21] the uh parking from a zoning point of
[1:22:23] view here, the the uh the proposed uh
[1:22:26] unit count and the commercial space um
[1:22:29] meets the required parking requirements
[1:22:31] that without requiring any uh use of
[1:22:35] off- streetet parking to count towards
[1:22:36] the credit. That was a really big
[1:22:39] street, right?
[1:22:40] >> That's that's another
[1:22:42] >> thing that's off that that's a change
[1:22:44] from
[1:22:44] >> that was that was a change. So they they
[1:22:46] are not asking to utilize um any of the
[1:22:50] on street parking as credit for the
[1:22:52] parking requirements to meet the
[1:22:54] ordinance. Um so that's been modified
[1:22:57] and adjusted here throughout the process here. Um
[1:23:03] they've met all the landscape buffering
[1:23:05] requirements here uh associated with the
[1:23:08] project here. Um we did ask for a um uh
[1:23:12] to update a storm water conveyance
[1:23:14] system. They with the modification they
[1:23:16] made in the parking lot recently for a
[1:23:17] handicap, they added another inlet in
[1:23:20] and uh I one of my comments was to
[1:23:22] update the stormwater report to show the
[1:23:24] conveyance piping uh within that report
[1:23:27] design of that. I've worked offline with
[1:23:29] the applicant. Uh they haven't made the
[1:23:30] official submission into the burrow yet,
[1:23:32] but they provided me a copy of that and
[1:23:34] it appears to be acceptable. So I'm okay
[1:23:36] with the storm water design. There are
[1:23:37] not any outstanding stormwater comments.
[1:23:40] Um so uh so no the majority of the uh
[1:23:43] the items um um are uh or the design
[1:23:46] related items are have been addressed uh
[1:23:48] per the ordinance requirements um um
[1:23:51] here for uh for in my opinion in my
[1:23:54] review.
[1:23:55] >> Okay. So if if I were if I was
[1:23:58] instructed to write uh a a denial, is
[1:24:04] there anything in your letter that would
[1:24:08] make it that I could hang a hat on or is
[1:24:10] everything as far as engineering and
[1:24:13] design things are concerned? Is does the
[1:24:16] plan now meet the objective standards of
[1:24:20] the zoning and subdivision and land
[1:24:22] development ordinance? Yes, with the uh
[1:24:24] with the except for the the waivers
[1:24:27] requested which are are pretty nominal
[1:24:29] uh from from that end.
[1:24:30] >> Right. Okay.
[1:24:33] >> The um planning commission um made a uh
[1:24:36] recommendation for the uh the project
[1:24:38] here um uh subject to certain conditions
[1:24:41] that all waiverss um um uh be comply
[1:24:44] with all the outstanding comments of uh
[1:24:46] our letter here. the waiverss be granted
[1:24:49] um and modified. I guess unless specific
[1:24:51] answers or or waiverss are granted um
[1:24:54] they should comply with all of our
[1:24:56] letters um comments in our letters. Um
[1:25:01] uh there was a comment in here about the
[1:25:02] bureau uh related to the proposed
[1:25:04] rightaway improvements prior to plan
[1:25:06] recordation. Uh they are dedicating some
[1:25:08] rightway along King Street. Um so
[1:25:10] they'll uh they'll be required to uh do
[1:25:12] a deed dedication for that strip of
[1:25:14] rightway. Um the uh the applicant um
[1:25:18] there was a condition in here that the
[1:25:20] applicant um uh shall provide written
[1:25:23] correspondences from each utility
[1:25:25] company with facilities along East King
[1:25:27] Street identifying the ownership of the
[1:25:30] overhead utility and communication lines
[1:25:32] whether underground relocation is
[1:25:33] feasible and whether relocation
[1:25:35] protection or modification is required
[1:25:37] to accommodate um emergency apparatus um
[1:25:40] access. uh the bureau engineer and the
[1:25:42] fire company shall receive copies of all
[1:25:44] utility responses uh for review. So um
[1:25:48] there's been some discussion here for uh
[1:25:51] this application here about um the uh
[1:25:53] the overhead wires. There are I to best
[1:25:56] my knowledge there are Comcast and
[1:25:58] Verizon lines uh not electric lines um
[1:26:02] uh along the uh property frontage um for
[1:26:05] those um the applicant has the desire to
[1:26:09] um remove them from an aesthetic point
[1:26:11] of view here. um fire company has um has looked at this and and would love to
[1:26:16] have them out of the way here too, but
[1:26:19] um there's no ordinance requirements
[1:26:20] that can do that and those are going to
[1:26:22] be dictated whether or not the utility
[1:26:23] companies will allow them to be put in
[1:26:26] the ground. As many of the council
[1:26:27] members are aware, um we tried that
[1:26:30] exercise with the east side flats and uh
[1:26:32] the utility companies rejected, that was
[1:26:34] Pico in particular, rejected um the the applicant from uh putting those
[1:26:38] underground. they did not choose, they
[1:26:40] did not want them underground. Um, by
[1:26:43] discussions with the applicant, they
[1:26:44] would like to have that from from a
[1:26:46] project perspective. Uh, but that's
[1:26:48] going to be dictated whether or not the
[1:26:49] utility companies uh will allow that to
[1:26:51] occur.
[1:26:52] >> And these are just Comcast and Verizon.
[1:26:54] You said
[1:26:55] >> Comcast and Verizon is the best
[1:26:56] liability. The electrics on the opposite
[1:26:58] side of the street and so um they're not
[1:27:01] electrified wiring here.
[1:27:03] >> Yeah. with with the caveat that there
[1:27:05] are other utilities that have rights and
[1:27:08] that becomes our sticking point because
[1:27:09] there are
[1:27:10] >> those polls were originally I believe
[1:27:12] put up by belic and you know belic no
[1:27:14] longer exists but their successor and
[1:27:15] subsidiaries still hold certain
[1:27:17] privileges and
[1:27:18] >> and that's what we're trying to
[1:27:19] navigate.
[1:27:20] >> Okay.
[1:27:21] Um, the applicant also suggested uh I'm
[1:27:24] sorry, the planning commission also
[1:27:25] suggested that a traffic impact and
[1:27:27] pedestrian safety evaluation addressing
[1:27:30] the proposed street rightway, pedestrian
[1:27:32] circulation, sidewalk connectivity,
[1:27:34] crosswalks, emergency vehicle operation,
[1:27:36] loading and delivery movements, and site
[1:27:38] distances associated with the
[1:27:39] development. Um, and then any
[1:27:42] recommendations affected by the proposed
[1:27:44] rideway or public improvements shall be
[1:27:46] incorporated into the final plans to the
[1:27:47] satisfaction of the burough engineer. Um
[1:27:50] that was one of their conditions uh that
[1:27:52] they had listed on there and they also
[1:27:54] uh had a condition that the uh um plan
[1:27:57] uh prior to the plan recordation they'll
[1:28:00] update the storm water report which I
[1:28:02] have been working with the applicant on
[1:28:03] and have uh and have found that to be
[1:28:05] satisfactory for what's been submitted
[1:28:07] here
[1:28:09] >> terms of traffic study. Uh does this
[1:28:12] maybe this is more of a question for
[1:28:13] Wendy's or maybe it is for you uh Dan.
[1:28:16] Is this something that a project of the
[1:28:18] size normally does? Is it something we
[1:28:20] can compel the applicant to do? Is it
[1:28:24] legal legally viable? So the ordinance,
[1:28:26] your current uh ordinance right now as
[1:28:28] is written today does not have a
[1:28:30] provision for this um uh to require that
[1:28:33] as a as a mandatory requirement. um from
[1:28:36] a uh talking with a traffic engineer um
[1:28:39] uh and being involved with projects with
[1:28:42] traffic studies in the past. Um the
[1:28:44] typical PennDOT project if this King
[1:28:46] Street happened to be a Pendot road or
[1:28:48] um involved with a PennDOT intersection
[1:28:51] um uh this project is sized um does not
[1:28:54] uh would not require a traffic study to
[1:28:56] be completed uh because of the number of
[1:28:58] peak daily trip peak hourly trips that
[1:29:01] are anticipated for the for 14 units in
[1:29:04] the commercial space. Um so the
[1:29:06] ordinance uh doesn't require that. Um
[1:29:08] the applicant did as part of a previous
[1:29:10] application um do u um kind of a traffic
[1:29:14] assessment here um back in June of of
[1:29:17] 2025 that did address um the anticipated
[1:29:20] uh um traffic uh peak peak hourly rates
[1:29:24] and traffic movements um and that was
[1:29:26] reviewed by the uh by the burough
[1:29:28] traffic engineer. Um part of this uh
[1:29:31] application process has been sight
[1:29:34] distance analysis has already been
[1:29:35] completed for the driveway. Um been
[1:29:37] reviewed and approved. Um the loading
[1:29:40] and delivery movements have been looked
[1:29:42] at um extensively here through the land
[1:29:44] development process with the planning
[1:29:46] commission. Um emergency vehicle
[1:29:48] operations have been reviewed and looked
[1:29:49] at um by the fire department. Um
[1:29:52] sidewalk connectivity. Um uh they we
[1:29:55] looked at the crosswalks. they're going
[1:29:56] to be as part of this project to
[1:29:58] proposing um traffic on pedestrian
[1:30:01] improvements around King Street
[1:30:02] intersection. Um and uh they've also
[1:30:05] designed handicap ramps at the driveway
[1:30:07] crossing um for this. So a lot of these
[1:30:09] items were um addressed as part of the
[1:30:13] um uh part of the uh land development
[1:30:16] process here that was uh that was
[1:30:18] reviewed by the traffic engineer and our
[1:30:20] office. And just to key off what Dan was
[1:30:22] saying as feedback that we received from
[1:30:23] this council, uh we are improving the
[1:30:25] intersection of King and Bridge.
[1:30:26] There'll be new crosswalks on all
[1:30:28] locations crossing King in two places as
[1:30:32] shown on the plan and then crossing
[1:30:33] bridges one. Uh all those uh landings
[1:30:36] will be updated to uh all the new
[1:30:38] landings be updated to ADA standards. Um
[1:30:41] and the burrow has requested that
[1:30:43] special uh pavement markings be
[1:30:44] provided. So, we feel that we're making
[1:30:46] a a large contribution to the safety of
[1:30:48] King Street by by improving that that
[1:30:50] intersection from a pedestrian
[1:30:51] standpoint.
[1:30:52] >> Yeah. As far the legal standpoint, um
[1:30:55] because, you know, I don't come to all
[1:30:57] these meetings, but I sometimes watch
[1:30:59] them and I, you know, I'm generally
[1:31:02] aware of what's going on, but and and
[1:31:05] any project in the bureau, this traffic
[1:31:09] question always comes up. And there's a
[1:31:13] couple things that I just want to make
[1:31:16] clear. Um there are not
[1:31:21] standards that we can um look at any
[1:31:26] report and say, "Oh, well that's going
[1:31:29] to be that's going to be too much
[1:31:30] traffic or that's okay or whatever."
[1:31:32] There's um in the in the pendot world
[1:31:35] there's things called levels of service
[1:31:37] that and if you're you know there's ABC
[1:31:41] D um and often um you know a traffic
[1:31:45] report will say well it's level of
[1:31:48] service F now and it's going to be level
[1:31:51] of service F later. There's nothing
[1:31:53] lower than F. So um and there's no
[1:31:57] standards that um we have available to
[1:32:02] say
[1:32:03] that um you know it'll people will have
[1:32:07] to wait 20 seconds longer to make a turn
[1:32:11] or cross the street. We can't make a
[1:32:14] denial based on some on
[1:32:18] um something that doesn't have a a very
[1:32:22] objective standard. Now, in some
[1:32:24] municipalities, like most notably here,
[1:32:27] West Whiteland, they have gone through a
[1:32:31] very long process, a very expensive
[1:32:33] process to create something called a um
[1:32:37] traffic impact
[1:32:40] fee thing. I forget the name of the
[1:32:42] statute, but um developers in in West
[1:32:46] Whiteland
[1:32:48] um may be required to um do certain
[1:32:52] things. based on a plan that was
[1:32:55] developed after a whole separate process
[1:32:58] from the subdivision land development
[1:33:01] procedure. And the reason for that is
[1:33:04] that
[1:33:06] under the municipality's planning code
[1:33:08] and the case law, if there's an existing
[1:33:12] problem in the municipality, whatever it
[1:33:16] may be, a U developer coming in cannot
[1:33:21] be made to fix all of the existing
[1:33:25] problems. You can't make them do that.
[1:33:29] And if you have the traffic impact
[1:33:31] study, you can ask for a fee um which is
[1:33:37] calculated according to this big
[1:33:39] expensive study that says, well, okay,
[1:33:42] you're going to increase increase
[1:33:44] traffic by a thousand cars a day. So, we
[1:33:47] have this formula that we worked up
[1:33:50] using our big expensive study. And that
[1:33:52] means that you have to contribute $100
[1:33:56] per rental unit to our traffic fee. So
[1:34:01] you can do that. Melvin doesn't have
[1:34:03] that. And I can pretty much tell you
[1:34:06] that if Melvin tried to do that, it
[1:34:08] would be a failure because the burrow is
[1:34:12] too small. Um but you know, if you want us to do it, you know, let me know.
[1:34:17] It be make somebody a whole lot of
[1:34:20] money. So anyway, the short story is I
[1:34:23] know there have been a lot of concerns
[1:34:25] raised about traffic. I've but there is
[1:34:29] no lawful way to turn down this plan at
[1:34:34] this point based on anything having to
[1:34:38] do with traffic. There just isn't. So
[1:34:42] that's all I have. And if anything, I
[1:34:44] think some of the improvements this
[1:34:47] project provides, like I think you've
[1:34:49] agreed to straighten out the kink in
[1:34:51] King Street. Uh there's a bend. Uh
[1:34:54] that's one of the reasons why uh
[1:34:56] visibility is kind of poor in that
[1:34:58] intersection of King and Bridge. So I
[1:35:00] think that would be a great improvement
[1:35:01] as well as, you know, potentially the
[1:35:03] crosswalk on the western, you know,
[1:35:05] going north south on the western side to
[1:35:07] kind of make [clears throat] that box.
[1:35:08] So theoretically safety will be improved
[1:35:11] by some of these u recommendations in
[1:35:14] terms of the sidewalks and whatnot.
[1:35:16] Um any other questions from council?
[1:35:20] >> Yeah, [clears throat]
[1:35:21] the building the architecture that we
[1:35:24] see.
[1:35:25] >> Yes.
[1:35:26] >> This is a public meeting. Is that what
[1:35:28] we're going to see when it's built?
[1:35:32] >> As the architect of the project
[1:35:33] >> that look Yes.
[1:35:34] >> and the developer. Yes. Our intent is to
[1:35:38] deliver uh of course it's an artistic
[1:35:40] rendering and it's not going to be pixel
[1:35:42] for pixel but yes it's going to be a
[1:35:44] brick facade building with an elaborate
[1:35:46] cornice again our our hope was to echo
[1:35:50] what used to be the hires factory that
[1:35:52] was across the street that had very
[1:35:54] similar architectural elements and we
[1:35:55] drew a lot of that in hoping to
[1:35:57] incorporate this as well as other
[1:35:58] historic buildings further down on King
[1:36:00] Street that include some of these
[1:36:01] elements as well. the bay windows. We're
[1:36:04] really trying to play to u Maver's
[1:36:06] historic character. And as like I said,
[1:36:08] this is the gateway. We're heavily
[1:36:10] invested in providing a a true gem for
[1:36:14] when you come over street.
[1:36:15] >> I only bring this up because we've had
[1:36:18] other incidences where we saw something,
[1:36:21] but that's not what was built,
[1:36:24] >> right?
[1:36:25] >> And I'm not questioning, you know, but
[1:36:27] uh I'm glad to hear you're committed to
[1:36:29] that. Thank you. And again, we're not a
[1:36:32] developer who's going to be out of town
[1:36:33] tomorrow. We hold many properties in the
[1:36:35] burrow. I plan to hold these properties
[1:36:37] for my lifetime. So, we're here to stay
[1:36:39] and we want to deliver something that's
[1:36:40] quality. I'm a burough resident. I'm
[1:36:42] going to see it every day. I want it to
[1:36:43] look great, too.
[1:36:46] >> Right. Any other questions for from the
[1:36:48] rest of council?
[1:36:52] All right. Um, anything else, Dan,
[1:36:54] before I open up for public comment?
[1:36:56] >> All right. With that, we'll open it up
[1:36:57] for public comment. Uh, Miss Daddy,
[1:36:59] would you care to comment on the
[1:37:02] uh proposal?
[1:37:11] » Thank you everyone. My name is Cassandra
[1:37:13] Dowy. I live at 145 Woodland Avenue
[1:37:16] right here in the burrow. And
[1:37:20] um, Mr. Car, I'm here to stay too.
[1:37:23] I've been here for almost 15 years.
[1:37:28] I raised my family here and um
[1:37:33] I guess let me just get to the point.
[1:37:35] I'm really excited about this new
[1:37:37] burough council because this is a new
[1:37:40] opportunity for us to vote in favor of
[1:37:44] the residents to vote in favor of
[1:37:46] walkability,
[1:37:48] pedestrian safety, and small town
[1:37:51] livability. Um,
[1:37:54] just wanted to do a to quote from the
[1:37:58] summary of the walkability study from
[1:38:01] 2015.
[1:38:03] Seems like a long time ago, but the
[1:38:06] principles in that study still hold.
[1:38:09] Quote, Mal presents itself to the world
[1:38:12] as a walking community, and we aspire to
[1:38:16] live up to that.
[1:38:18] So, I'm quoting from the walkability
[1:38:20] study because a lot of members from our
[1:38:23] community work very hard on it and it
[1:38:27] was an important study and it the truths
[1:38:29] in that study still hold. The 2018
[1:38:32] multimodality study, the truths in that
[1:38:36] study still hold. The 2022 comprehensive
[1:38:40] plan for our community still hold. This
[1:38:44] plan for Duffren Maher does not line up
[1:38:48] with any of the principles in spirit to
[1:38:51] those studies.
[1:38:54] So until there's an alignment
[1:38:57] and until there's a true effort at from
[1:39:01] this builder to listen to the to listen
[1:39:05] to the residents, I I'm not interested
[1:39:09] in the safety at King and Bridge and all
[1:39:11] the work that you're doing there
[1:39:14] at the expense of the safety at the at
[1:39:18] the um intersection of Roberts and
[1:39:21] Woodland. So you have 300 to 500 new
[1:39:25] traffic units
[1:39:28] based on the 5,000 square foot retail
[1:39:32] medical office space we don't know plus
[1:39:34] the 14 apartments
[1:39:37] going through that intersection every
[1:39:38] day
[1:39:41] driving by a school with 300 school
[1:39:44] students
[1:39:45] who are not all 300 but they're either
[1:39:48] being dropped off in cars school buses
[1:39:51] that are right on Woodland or that yes,
[1:39:53] they are walking to school.
[1:39:58] So, I'm planning on retiring here. I
[1:40:01] have family member a family member with
[1:40:03] a disability
[1:40:05] and I think that the
[1:40:08] legal amb ambiguity
[1:40:11] even still
[1:40:13] regarding the upper floor dwelling units
[1:40:16] >> needs to be looked at.
[1:40:18] >> Z finish your thoughts and
[1:40:21] >> Okay. Thank you.
[1:40:22] >> And I'm just really excited about this
[1:40:24] final vote because I'm
[1:40:26] >> I know you guys will all do the right
[1:40:28] thing. Thank you so much.
[1:40:29] >> Thank you.
[1:40:31] >> Uh Miss Hus,
[1:40:39] » Shannon Hus, 105 Woodland. Um first I do
[1:40:42] want to just say the building does look
[1:40:43] really nice. Um but I am bringing
[1:40:46] concerns about safety. I love that
[1:40:48] you're going to help out on King Street.
[1:40:50] I think that is great, but we are
[1:40:51] forgetting about woodland. We don't know
[1:40:53] what the commercial space is going to
[1:40:54] be. Kids I'm going to piggyback off of
[1:40:58] Cassandra because it is so important.
[1:41:00] Um, kids are playing all day. We also
[1:41:02] have a bus stop at the end of Woodland
[1:41:04] in the mornings. Um, sometimes twice
[1:41:07] depending for elementary as well as high
[1:41:08] school and middle school. Um, so kids
[1:41:10] are walking there early morning. It's
[1:41:12] dark. It's going to be busy coming out.
[1:41:14] We're also forgetting that he has 14 in
[1:41:18] this building and seven in the other
[1:41:20] building. So that brings the total to
[1:41:22] 21, not 19 with having one entrance. So
[1:41:28] we should have two. We're now combining
[1:41:31] these buildings together, which isn't
[1:41:33] okay. If we follow the plans, it should
[1:41:37] have two, not one. That would be safe.
[1:41:41] Also to bring up everybody coming out on
[1:41:44] Woodland, it's going to be blocked.
[1:41:46] Everybody forgets about the buses. I
[1:41:48] will say St. Pat's just started. It is
[1:41:51] blocked. It is It's hard for people on
[1:41:54] Roberts to even get by. It's You can't
[1:41:57] Robert should be right now. I'm just
[1:42:00] bringing it up as safety. Especially if
[1:42:01] this does go through, you should really
[1:42:03] look at Roberts as one way because it
[1:42:06] isn't safe. You can't turn. You're
[1:42:07] blocking. There's people all the way up
[1:42:09] on Woodland. people parked all sides.
[1:42:13] You can't get by. Unfortunately, it's
[1:42:15] not safe. Safety is key. Kids are out
[1:42:19] there riding bikes. All these cars
[1:42:21] coming. People go through the stop
[1:42:23] signs. People come down Woodland the
[1:42:24] wrong way every day. I could count every
[1:42:27] hour at least five cars coming down the
[1:42:30] wrong way. That's just right now. That's
[1:42:32] not okay. It's unsafe. There's a school.
[1:42:35] Kids are outside playing, walking
[1:42:37] around, going to Randolph Woods. That's
[1:42:39] what our town is about. Yes, we want to
[1:42:41] grow and develop, but we need to do it
[1:42:43] safe. We need to look at this project
[1:42:46] and we need to take a step back. If we
[1:42:48] follow the rules and make it safe, then
[1:42:50] it's okay. I do want to thank you for
[1:42:53] listening to us with a lot of our
[1:42:55] concerns. I do want to give you credit
[1:42:57] for that. But we still have work on this
[1:42:59] project that we need to do when it comes
[1:43:01] back to safety. And we are continuing to
[1:43:03] grow and it is about the children and
[1:43:05] family here. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
[1:43:08] Buckley.
[1:43:12] » This is not against you, but I don't
[1:43:14] want to say so. Um, I'm just going to It
[1:43:19] may sound against you, but this is the
[1:43:20] whole point. Um, all right.
[1:43:23] All this stuff about this, these people
[1:43:26] wouldn't be fighting. He gets what he
[1:43:29] wants if you just put a light at that
[1:43:31] bridge before some kids get there. And
[1:43:34] if we can get the light for free and it
[1:43:36] ain't costing him, he gets what he want.
[1:43:39] And these people out here get what they
[1:43:41] want because all the traffic when they
[1:43:43] come out of his property, they're going
[1:43:45] to come up to Robert and nine out of 10,
[1:43:48] I bet you they go down to um Wooden to
[1:43:50] First Avenue. If I'm wrong, I'll
[1:43:53] apologize, but prove me wrong first. And
[1:43:55] traffic studies, they ain't know been
[1:43:57] those traffic. When was the last traffic
[1:43:59] stud? Like 10 years ago. Five at least.
[1:44:03] Yes, it was because you can't get a
[1:44:06] traffic light at the bridge and that's
[1:44:07] more light more traffic at the bridge
[1:44:09] and when they come over that bridge it's
[1:44:12] going to take a villa girl to get hit
[1:44:14] because you never put a sidewalk on that
[1:44:17] side of the bridge to let that people on
[1:44:19] Woodland Avenue like her cross on that side of the bridge. It's a safety
[1:44:24] issue there.
[1:44:25] >> I'll be back.
[1:44:27] >> All right. So, I think Mr. car has
[1:44:29] already done a study with the larger the
[1:44:32] prior plan with more units and that
[1:44:35] intersection at bridg and king public
[1:44:38] safety subcommittee has looked at that
[1:44:39] we had our traffic engineer look at that
[1:44:41] we determined that the flow of traffic
[1:44:43] would be better can't remember exactly
[1:44:45] what it was maybe moving southbound from
[1:44:50] bridge onto King uh but traffic in
[1:44:54] general wouldn't be improved in terms of
[1:44:55] speediness uh and we believe that it
[1:44:58] would actually, like I mentioned
[1:45:00] earlier, create more of a safety problem
[1:45:02] for pedestrians at that intersection
[1:45:05] with a light. There a time may come
[1:45:07] where we may put the flashing lights
[1:45:09] that were similar to in front of East
[1:45:11] Side Flats at that intersection. We have
[1:45:13] concerns about uh the reliability of
[1:45:16] them. The ones that we currently use
[1:45:19] fail all the time uh and then they
[1:45:21] become even more unsafe, right? So,
[1:45:23] we're looking into trying to make them
[1:45:25] better. But John, we've discussed this
[1:45:28] with you at every meeting you attend.
[1:45:30] So, thank you for your comment.
[1:45:33] >> Don't work there.
[1:45:34] >> Miss Ruts,
[1:45:35] >> they don't work.
[1:45:36] >> Mr. Buckley, you had your opportunity.
[1:45:39] Mr. Buckley, please stop interrupting.
[1:45:41] >> Barbara Ruts, Monument Avenue. I would
[1:45:43] just like to first of all thank the cars
[1:45:46] for the tremendous amount of work that
[1:45:48] they've taken the time to do with over a
[1:45:50] year and changing as many things as
[1:45:54] they've changed. Um, I one of the other
[1:45:57] speakers I would just like to say
[1:46:00] Wendy said that we can't require a
[1:46:02] builder to fix problems that are already
[1:46:05] there. And what I hear is that the
[1:46:07] traffic on Roberts is horrendous with
[1:46:09] the school buses. It's not this building
[1:46:11] that's going to be causing any more
[1:46:13] problems than what there already are.
[1:46:15] And I think since you'll be considering
[1:46:18] voting on this, I would just like to say
[1:46:20] I think that he's done a tremendous job.
[1:46:23] I like the way it looks. He's made it
[1:46:25] smaller.
[1:46:26] I don't think that it's going to cause a
[1:46:30] whole lot more problems than there
[1:46:31] already are. And I think we should work
[1:46:33] on fixing the problems that there are,
[1:46:36] not um turning down somebody who really
[1:46:40] has a vested interest in Malvin. It's
[1:46:42] not like somebody coming in that did
[1:46:45] another big development here. and he's
[1:46:49] big enough that he didn't listen to
[1:46:51] anybody, made promises, didn't quite
[1:46:54] live up to his promises. He lives here,
[1:46:57] but I I just think that these are people
[1:47:01] that live here and have a vested
[1:47:02] interest and they don't want the
[1:47:04] community to be awful and I would say
[1:47:07] that I support them and I think we
[1:47:10] should work some other way on fixing the
[1:47:13] traffic problems that we have because we
[1:47:15] have a lot and they're not just right
[1:47:16] there.
[1:47:18] Thank you. And I'm sure everyone's aware
[1:47:20] this town existed before we had cars,
[1:47:25] giant SUVs, right? I mean, this was a
[1:47:28] town with horse and buggy, right? And
[1:47:30] carriages. And so, you know, our roads
[1:47:32] weren't designed for this. That
[1:47:34] intersection, one of the reasons why
[1:47:35] it's tough is because the flying pig is
[1:47:37] so close to that intersection. And you
[1:47:39] know, where you approach uh modern cars,
[1:47:42] what that front beam in your car that
[1:47:44] supports the windshield, it's called the
[1:47:45] A-pillar. We know that there's a blind
[1:47:47] spot there and hopefully this project
[1:47:49] when they iron out the kink in uh King
[1:47:52] Street, hopefully it improves visibility
[1:47:54] and people can see traffic on Bridge
[1:47:56] Street from King and aren't blinded
[1:47:58] with, you know, by not being able to see
[1:48:00] through their apillar of their car. So,
[1:48:02] we know we have issues and we're doing
[1:48:04] what we can to solve them. Uh, and I
[1:48:07] know that Roberts, I believe there was
[1:48:08] parking on both sides of the street and
[1:48:10] when I first got on council, we removed
[1:48:12] some of the parking on the one side to
[1:48:13] try to improve it. So, we're doing our
[1:48:17] best. Mr. Petty John,
[1:48:20] >> we're going to make my way up here
[1:48:21] again. Harry P Street. Um, yes, the cars
[1:48:25] have done a lot of work um to make the
[1:48:28] changes that were required. Um, wasn't
[1:48:32] out of the goodness of their hearts. It
[1:48:33] was mandated. Um, however, um, we're not
[1:48:38] there yet. Uh, and the safety is a
[1:48:41] problem. And while you can't for tell a
[1:48:44] builder that they have to fix an
[1:48:46] existing problem, that is correct and
[1:48:48] doesn't always happen. Other townships
[1:48:50] take advantage. Um, [clears throat] but
[1:48:53] they're not at the
[1:48:56] requirement yet. There's still too too
[1:48:59] many units. And if they go down to
[1:49:01] what's
[1:49:03] the requirement, then there is nothing
[1:49:05] else to do.
[1:49:07] But they're not there. They still have
[1:49:10] too many units.
[1:49:11] and the square footage of the commercial
[1:49:14] space. While that has a traffic count
[1:49:17] that's uh allotted for what will end up
[1:49:20] happening is when the cars find tenants,
[1:49:23] a tenant has to come in for their
[1:49:25] permits and then they have to come in
[1:49:27] for their variant. They're going to
[1:49:28] they're we're going to have to give them
[1:49:30] waiverss because maybe it's a high
[1:49:32] traffic business like a medical place um
[1:49:35] or maybe a restaurant that doesn't have
[1:49:37] enough parking. We don't know that yet.
[1:49:39] That's an unknown. So that's why we have
[1:49:42] a lot of these rules to try to
[1:49:44] accommodate for those unknowns. That's
[1:49:45] why he's two too many apartments. Just
[1:49:48] is I think you still need to cut it.
[1:49:51] Owen, I think you need to cut it to
[1:49:52] apartments. And then you're within the
[1:49:54] zoning. There's nothing left to do. But
[1:49:56] that that's this council's job to hold
[1:49:59] them to what our current ordinance is.
[1:50:02] It is our current zone zoning ordinance.
[1:50:05] Or they have to have two driveways,
[1:50:06] which they you can't. So get it down to
[1:50:09] the right number.
[1:50:11] >> Thank you.
[1:50:11] >> All right. Thank you. And just the
[1:50:13] record, they are not the or the waiverss
[1:50:15] they're requesting are preliminary final
[1:50:18] plan being the same. Correct me then if
[1:50:20] I'm wrong. Uh King Street cartway width,
[1:50:23] right, which they're we're not going to
[1:50:25] widen King Street. The curb height, so
[1:50:27] it conforms to the same curb heights.
[1:50:30] Street trees, which the shade tree
[1:50:32] commission is okay with. Property line
[1:50:35] grading, which it sounds like you're
[1:50:36] okay with. in the storm water which they
[1:50:38] have no way to correct because there's
[1:50:41] no storm sewers on King right there's
[1:50:44] nothing about size there's nothing about
[1:50:47] number of units there's nothing about
[1:50:49] they're okay with number of parking
[1:50:51] spaces correct uh they don't they aren't
[1:50:53] requesting a waiver uh to have two
[1:50:59] you know they don't require two
[1:51:01] ingresses and egresses right they're the waiverss I described are the only
[1:51:05] things that We are considering.
[1:51:07] >> Yes. So, yes. So, is that So, sorry if
[1:51:10] we're having a conversation. I like to
[1:51:11] have a conversation.
[1:51:11] >> No, I'm asking Dan. I
[1:51:13] >> Okay. Well, you were seem like you're
[1:51:14] rebutting what I was saying.
[1:51:15] >> No, I'm just making sure everyone is
[1:51:16] aware of what it is.
[1:51:18] >> Well, then then I do believe when the
[1:51:20] planning commission sent their their approval with the traffic study
[1:51:24] being has to be done was because of the
[1:51:27] size and the volume because we just
[1:51:28] don't know what the unit count is. It is
[1:51:29] a lot of cars. There's a lot of cars
[1:51:31] going on oneway street in front of a
[1:51:33] school. and to just be like, "Oh well,
[1:51:37] we have traffic. Oh well, that's that's irresponsible on our end."
[1:51:42] Thanks.
[1:51:44] All right. Uh, Mr. McCain,
[1:51:58] Stacy Petty, John, 139 Church Street.
[1:52:03] Justice is the recognition of rights
[1:52:05] that exist by nature. Certain rights
[1:52:07] exist before any ordinance or council
[1:52:10] vote. They are recognized, not invented.
[1:52:12] When a legal system treats those rights
[1:52:14] as gifts it can redefine at will,
[1:52:17] justice becomes whatever the stronger
[1:52:19] party can impose.
[1:52:21] Fairness is the working rule that makes
[1:52:24] justice visible. Like cases are treated
[1:52:27] alike. that the same standard applies to
[1:52:30] the citizen and the official, the
[1:52:32] applicant and the objector. Fairness is
[1:52:35] not that everyone gets the same outcome.
[1:52:38] It is that no one is measured by a
[1:52:40] secret ruler. Liberty is in the
[1:52:43] security, the the predictability of law
[1:52:46] and the knowledge that officials
[1:52:48] themselves are bound. Without that,
[1:52:51] liberty is only a slogan. The three
[1:52:53] belong together. Rights that cannot be
[1:52:56] secured are not rights in practice. A
[1:52:58] process that is not fair cannot secure
[1:53:01] them. That is the test on Duffare. Judge
[1:53:05] Verway's ruling allowed this matter to
[1:53:07] start a new and required that the word
[1:53:09] create be given its proper meaning. This
[1:53:12] application creates new apartments on an
[1:53:15] assemblage that already holds seven. It
[1:53:19] creates added commercial. It creates new
[1:53:22] traffic on King and Woodland. You are
[1:53:25] not required to allow the two extra
[1:53:28] apartments Duffer More is still asking.
[1:53:30] You are required to apply the zoning
[1:53:33] ordinance and the SAO as written. A true
[1:53:36] traffic study before any commitment is
[1:53:38] not a courtesy. It is the evidence the
[1:53:41] same rule demands. A study deferred
[1:53:44] letters deferred until after the burrow
[1:53:46] is already bound is a different ruler
[1:53:48] for this applicant. To allow more
[1:53:51] apartments than what the code permits
[1:53:53] and to skip the traffic study the code
[1:53:55] exists to compel is an abortion of our
[1:53:59] existing laws and of the power that the
[1:54:02] people of this town invested in you not
[1:54:05] to manage a project around the ordinance
[1:54:08] but to secure the ordinance for everyone
[1:54:10] who must live with the result. Does this
[1:54:14] process secure the rights under the same
[1:54:16] rule for everyone or does it merely
[1:54:19] manage them? Please hold Duffer more to
[1:54:22] the laws we already have. Thank you.
[1:54:25] >> Thank you. Do we have anyone else who
[1:54:27] would care to make public comment?
[1:54:30] All right. Uh ma'am
[1:54:37] » and please state your name for the
[1:54:39] minutes.
[1:54:41] Um, my name is Cindy Curry. I live at
[1:54:43] 135 Woodland.
[1:54:46] And I think most of what's need to be
[1:54:48] said uh has been said, but I'll say one
[1:54:50] more thing. So, with 30 parking spaces,
[1:54:55] 14 apartments,
[1:54:58] assuming two people will live in each or
[1:55:00] pretty close to that. And assuming
[1:55:03] they'll be paying a decent rent, um,
[1:55:06] they're probably going to have assigned
[1:55:07] parking. Or at least I would want that.
[1:55:09] It's a tenant.
[1:55:11] So, we're looking at 28 spaces
[1:55:15] gone now for the people that live there.
[1:55:17] So, that leaves two spaces
[1:55:20] for 5,000 square ft of retail shoppers,
[1:55:23] people that work there.
[1:55:26] Where are they going to park? Well,
[1:55:29] probably not on monument. So,
[1:55:33] well, they might. And if it's too much,
[1:55:35] I am sure we'll
[1:55:36] >> For the record, ma'am, uh you can't
[1:55:38] address the
[1:55:39] >> public. You have to address Bur County.
[1:55:40] >> Sorry about that. Um so again, 30
[1:55:45] parking spaces, 28 of them will be gone
[1:55:48] for the people that live there and two
[1:55:50] [clears throat] remaining. So they're
[1:55:52] going to be parked on Woodland, on
[1:55:55] Roberts, etc., etc. It's it's not
[1:55:59] responsible. It's too big. It's a prime
[1:56:05] spot of real estate. I'm sure a lot of
[1:56:07] developers would love to have that spot.
[1:56:10] It's a beautiful building. It's the same
[1:56:13] photo that's been up since the
[1:56:15] beginning.
[1:56:17] So, maybe less apartments, but it's
[1:56:19] still too big. And we that live here and
[1:56:24] our children that live close to that are
[1:56:27] the ones that are affected. people that
[1:56:30] work there and shop there have to have
[1:56:32] somewhere to park.
[1:56:35] And right now it leaves our streets
[1:56:38] where we live.
[1:56:40] I can't even get parking even on a
[1:56:43] Sunday.
[1:56:45] So it's not they speak of the ordinances
[1:56:48] and the sal and all that stuff that I
[1:56:50] don't really know much about. I'm just
[1:56:52] using a little common sense. It's a
[1:56:54] monstrosity. It's it's not the right
[1:56:58] building. However pretty it is
[1:57:01] for that size space. That's all. Thank
[1:57:05] you.
[1:57:05] >> All right. Thank you. All right. Uh
[1:57:08] looks like everyone's had a chance to
[1:57:10] make public comment. Uh Nicole, what are
[1:57:13] your thoughts on I know we have a number
[1:57:14] of other topics.
[1:57:17] >> One final com.
[1:57:17] >> Oh, I'm sorry. Miss Titus wanted to say
[1:57:19] throughout this process, speaking of
[1:57:20] volunteerism tonight, it's been a real
[1:57:22] pleasure working with the Burough Malvin
[1:57:23] from the Shade Tree Commission that as
[1:57:25] volunteers, the planning commission, the
[1:57:26] countless hours I spent with them, the
[1:57:28] burrow council, as well as the
[1:57:30] professional staff. It's been a real
[1:57:31] pleasure. So, I just want to thank you
[1:57:32] guys for all that you do to make this
[1:57:34] community great.
[1:57:35] >> All right. Thank you. Um Nicole, are
[1:57:37] there any agenda items you would think
[1:57:39] that we could postpone? I know we have
[1:57:41] some like the uh
[1:57:44] >> have to do
[1:57:45] >> we have to do the trash bids dodge Ram
[1:57:47] probably anything
[1:57:50] >> the Ram
[1:57:51] >> Ram can come wait okay
[1:57:53] >> but um
[1:57:54] >> we have to do
[1:57:55] >> when is the conference
[1:57:57] >> the conference is um October
[1:58:02] >> October 7th
[1:58:04] >> Oh the the um
[1:58:06] >> it says October
[1:58:08] >> um the resolution to to make the uh the
[1:58:12] >> you can ratify
[1:58:13] >> voting member that's going to be a
[1:58:14] quickie and we have to do the trash
[1:58:16] bids.
[1:58:17] >> Okay.
[1:58:18] >> But the truck sale can wait.
[1:58:19] >> These are all considerations. So it's
[1:58:21] only for discussion. There's no action
[1:58:23] tonight.
[1:58:24] >> Okay. Sounds good.
[1:58:25] >> Yeah. But on the tra on the trash, we
[1:58:27] have to talk about it tonight.
[1:58:29] >> Talk about trash. We have to award
[1:58:31] items.
[1:58:32] >> All right. So, let's hold off on
[1:58:33] everything but trash. And what was the
[1:58:35] other room said?
[1:58:36] >> Voting uh me. You have
[1:58:38] >> and the escrow. You have to do the
[1:58:40] escrow.
[1:58:40] >> Oh, the escrow release, right?
[1:58:41] >> Also, quick
[1:58:43] >> escrow. Um, so E and G and um the trash
[1:58:47] bid. So E and G and then we can go back
[1:58:49] to the trash bid.
[1:58:50] >> So do we have to vote to amend the
[1:58:52] agenda or
[1:58:55] » um
[1:58:57] Well, we can just table the trash.
[1:58:59] >> Let's let's table everything and we'll
[1:59:01] move on to uh trash and recycling
[1:59:04] collection bids.
[1:59:06] >> Yeah.
[1:59:07] Okay. So, table
[1:59:09] >> um
[1:59:10] >> So, you're going to table C, you're
[1:59:12] going to table
[1:59:14] >> F.
[1:59:17] >> Do you want Do you want me to talk about
[1:59:19] that, Nicole?
[1:59:20] >> What? Which one?
[1:59:21] >> The trash bit.
[1:59:22] >> Yes. Go ahead.
[1:59:22] >> Yeah. So, um we got uh um I think it was
[1:59:28] five alto together. Um there are what it
[1:59:32] comes down to is we got we got a lot
[1:59:34] more bids actually than the last time
[1:59:37] which was very nice. There's two
[1:59:39] newcomers to the business locally. Um
[1:59:44] the two there there were a couple that
[1:59:47] were way high. There was um one company
[1:59:52] that didn't bid. They said they weren't
[1:59:55] going to they just wanted to let us know
[1:59:57] that the burrow is basically too small.
[2:00:00] So anyway, we have we have two bids. Um,
[2:00:04] one is Bzenski, which is our current
[2:00:07] hauler. The the other low bidder is a
[2:00:12] new company called Unique Waste
[2:00:14] Solutions.
[2:00:16] Um the issue is whether um unique waste
[2:00:22] and blazinski are qualified. Mascaro and
[2:00:27] optendaker are are way higher. So
[2:00:32] um
[2:00:34] unique is very new. They did not
[2:00:38] entirely comply with the bidding
[2:00:41] instructions. they did not supply all
[2:00:45] the information that was required. Um so
[2:00:50] we we what the staff needs to do and
[2:00:53] probably uh one of the committees is
[2:00:57] look at whether um unique is not just
[2:01:03] the lowest bidder but the lowest
[2:01:05] qualified bidder. And if not, because of
[2:01:09] whatever circumstances exist, in
[2:01:12] addition to the fact that they didn't
[2:01:14] comply with the instructions,
[2:01:17] um they they may be eliminated from the menu. Um and we'll figure that out
[2:01:26] before the next meeting and the staff
[2:01:29] will have a recommendation for you.
[2:01:31] >> So, what does that look like? see and
[2:01:33] trying to ensure they're qualified like
[2:01:34] co calling towns that they service or
[2:01:36] >> well they don't service any towns that's
[2:01:38] part of the problem with them but
[2:01:41] >> company that doesn't
[2:01:42] >> they they do they don't do municipal
[2:01:45] they do HOAs and they do individual
[2:01:49] um but it will we'll dig a little deeper
[2:01:53] into uh they didn't supply any financial
[2:01:56] data
[2:01:58] um as I said they didn't comply with the
[2:02:01] instructions and which technically is
[2:02:04] enough to throw throw it out anyway. But
[2:02:08] in public bidding, you have to be really
[2:02:10] careful and we need if some if they come
[2:02:12] back or somebody else says, "Oh, you
[2:02:14] know, they were lower by $20,000. Why
[2:02:17] didn't you?" Well, there's not only did
[2:02:20] they not fulfill the instructions, but
[2:02:23] we have investigated. They're they're
[2:02:27] not they they didn't give us any
[2:02:29] information like the other companies did
[2:02:31] as to how many vehicles they have. Um
[2:02:35] it's a one from what I've determined so
[2:02:38] far it's a corporation but it's a sole
[2:02:41] member LLC which means it's really one
[2:02:45] guy and some employees. Um he's and I
[2:02:49] I've you know I've between Dan and I
[2:02:53] we've learned some information.
[2:02:56] Blazinski was really forthcoming with we
[2:03:01] had a list of every piece of equipment
[2:03:04] on their lot and numbers of you know and
[2:03:07] they've been our hauler for a long time.
[2:03:10] So, if we're if we're going to pick
[2:03:12] Blazinski over Unique, we have to have
[2:03:17] solid justification for that. And um I'm
[2:03:21] predicting that that will be the case at
[2:03:23] the next meeting. And the staff when
[2:03:26] they make their recommendation will tell
[2:03:28] you why.
[2:03:30] >> You said that you weren't sure that
[2:03:32] Bluinski was qualified. What? Why would
[2:03:34] >> No, I I I said when you get down to
[2:03:38] um you know, you've got some that are
[2:03:39] way high
[2:03:41] um and then you've got two that are
[2:03:44] comparable to each other, including your
[2:03:46] current holder. The you know, you're
[2:03:48] looking to make sure you have the lowest
[2:03:51] qualified bidder. Blazinski, when you
[2:03:54] look at it that way, this one's
[2:03:56] qualified for sure. This one, we don't
[2:03:59] know. So, it's not that I suspect
[2:04:02] they're unqualified. It's just, you
[2:04:04] know, you kind of have to take them and
[2:04:07] look at them that way.
[2:04:10] >> Can can I ask it how how do these
[2:04:12] numbers like the 242
[2:04:15] compare to what we would expect in our budget?
[2:04:21] >> Like how does it compare to what we've
[2:04:22] been paying the past few years? Is that
[2:04:24] what you're
[2:04:24] >> I mean, yeah, for for the building next
[2:04:27] year's budget. you know how I don't
[2:04:30] remember the number for this year for
[2:04:32] example. How does it compare?
[2:04:36] >> Um well that we can put that in the the staff can put that in the
[2:04:41] recommendation. The um
[2:04:44] my from my recollection we're in the
[2:04:46] right ballpark. The other thing that council will uh what well you need
[2:04:53] to look at what's in your packet because
[2:04:56] Sylvie has done a huge tabulation that
[2:04:59] goes deeper than this because we had
[2:05:02] them bid on a number of scenarios
[2:05:06] um a base contract of one year two year
[2:05:12] three years and then some number of
[2:05:14] renewals. So those numbers are are
[2:05:18] different and Sylvy's laid those all
[2:05:20] out. So you could um consider which of
[2:05:27] the options we set out you you want. Um
[2:05:31] so there in that regard you need to put
[2:05:34] on your um you know what was it that
[2:05:37] turban that Johnny Carson used to put
[2:05:40] on. You and I remember that but nobody
[2:05:41] else does.
[2:05:43] >> Our neck. Yeah. and say, "Well, if
[2:05:45] inflation is going to continue to go up,
[2:05:48] we should take the three-year with three
[2:05:52] renewals." But if you think prices are
[2:05:55] going to plummet, you may want to do the
[2:05:58] one year with fewer renewals is whatever
[2:06:01] you pick, you're going to be locked into
[2:06:03] it for some number of years. So, those
[2:06:06] are things that you still need.
[2:06:07] >> 24 It's a $2,400 difference between on
[2:06:09] bidc between the the Bzinski and Unique
[2:06:12] Waste. Unique Waste does not have
[2:06:14] comparables. They did not have anything
[2:06:16] that they like they did not come forward
[2:06:18] with a legitimate thing. So the really
[2:06:20] the question is is it worth $2,400 for
[2:06:23] three years to have the current provider
[2:06:26] >> take the risk, right?
[2:06:27] >> Yeah.
[2:06:28] >> So that's the that's the question.
[2:06:29] >> Yeah. And then we have to document that
[2:06:31] because you know trash bids.
[2:06:34] >> I don't I don't So like So let's let's
[2:06:36] end the conversation. We can document
[2:06:38] the things that they didn't qualify for.
[2:06:40] I agree with you. All I have to do is
[2:06:42] have is have that listed
[2:06:43] >> and is there any
[2:06:45] >> This has gone a very long conversation
[2:06:48] right. Yeah. So just cover our bases
[2:06:50] from a legal standpoint. I guess
[2:06:52] >> I I have I mean you know you've got the
[2:06:54] data. We have to write it down. We have
[2:06:57] to award it at the next meeting.
[2:06:59] >> You know everybody it's all on the table
[2:07:01] now. So
[2:07:02] >> yep. Let's write it down. Let's move on.
[2:07:04] >> I do have to open it up for public
[2:07:05] comment. Mr. Buckley.
[2:07:11] All right. Um, when it's faster
[2:07:15] some days I brought I said it to the bur
[2:07:18] too about it. Um,
[2:07:19] >> all right, John. I'm going to cut you
[2:07:21] off because this is not about um
[2:07:24] complaints about pickup or missed
[2:07:27] pickups or anything in the street. So,
[2:07:30] that's
[2:07:30] >> how our money these taxpayers pay.
[2:07:33] >> You're off. That's not on the agenda,
[2:07:35] >> right? We're talking about
[2:07:36] >> that's it. It's irrelevant.
[2:07:38] >> And again, John, you can take your
[2:07:40] concerns and talk to bro to burrow
[2:07:42] administration during office hours.
[2:07:44] Okay.
[2:07:46] >> All right. Uh, anybody else?
[2:07:48] >> Sir, and just state your name for the
[2:07:50] minutes, please.
[2:07:53] >> Hi, my name is Andrew Casey. I'm from AJ
[2:07:56] Blissinski. I just want to say that, you
[2:07:58] know, I do have 27 municipal contracts
[2:08:00] right now. I have been your provider for
[2:08:03] quite some time and I'd really love the
[2:08:05] opportunity to partner with you again to
[2:08:08] keep your burrow clean.
[2:08:10] >> Thanks.
[2:08:10] >> Thank you for showing up.
[2:08:12] >> Um,
[2:08:13] >> anyone else? All right, let's move on.
[2:08:15] Uh, consider the escro release in the
[2:08:16] amount of $17,980.3
[2:08:20] for 155 Channing Avenue. Dan,
[2:08:22] >> yep, that's the project here at the
[2:08:24] corner of Channing and first and uh
[2:08:26] they've completed all their work uh
[2:08:27] storm water. Um, the house has been
[2:08:29] sold. They've made the repairs out in
[2:08:31] the street. Um, everything is complete.
[2:08:32] I recommend that we close that project
[2:08:34] out and release the final escro funds
[2:08:36] for that.
[2:08:36] >> Sounds good. [clears throat] Um, any
[2:08:39] concerns?
[2:08:40] >> Uh, public comment. All right. Nobody.
[2:08:43] Uh, next to consider the appointment for
[2:08:45] of a voting delegate for the resolutions
[2:08:47] committee for PML summit on Thursday,
[2:08:50] October 1st, 2026. Uh, Nicole, what is
[2:08:54] this? I guess
[2:08:55] >> we're members of PML. annual summit is
[2:08:58] in Hershey, PA this year. Is anyone
[2:09:01] planning on going? Any of you planning
[2:09:03] on?
[2:09:03] >> I don't know that I was aware of it. So,
[2:09:05] >> okay. So, I'll share it with you. Um and
[2:09:07] then you can um appoint a delegate and
[2:09:11] um a voting and an alternate delegate if
[2:09:13] anyone um wants to go. I haven't decided
[2:09:16] if I'm planning on going yet, but we can
[2:09:18] decide in two weeks. But that's what
[2:09:20] that is. It's a resolution has to be
[2:09:21] sent in.
[2:09:22] >> Okay. Any questions from council?
[2:09:25] >> Nope. public comment. No. All right.
[2:09:27] There's no new business. Do I have a
[2:09:28] motion to adjurnn?
[2:09:30] >> Do I have a second?
[2:09:31] >> Second.