[10:18] Fix this.
>> What's wrong?
[10:31] Please say something.
>> I can barely hear you.
[10:34] » Say something.
>> Karen, we need we need a sound check
[10:38] from you. Keep talking.
>> Okay. I can barely hear Brian. I can
[10:43] barely hear Rob. I hear Mike very well.
>> I hear I hear
[10:53] » Gale. I don't think I heard it.
>> No, we got to live with it.
[10:56] » You didn't talk.
>> It's the um if we speak into the
[11:00] microphone, Karen, you can hear us.
>> Okay, I hear you perfectly.
[11:04] » Thank you.
>> Do we have anyone else on?
[11:11] Okay. So,
[11:59] is a barn.
>> Okay, we're on.
[12:04] » Good evening everyone. Welcome to the
meeting of the Mashby Planning Board.
[12:08] Today is Wednesday, February 4th, 2026.
The time is 6:30. Um we're meeting at
[12:13] Mashp Town Hall, McCoy meeting room 16
Great Neck Road North, Mashby,
[12:18] Massachusetts 02649.
We're being broadcast live on channels 8
[12:23] and 1072. The meeting is recorded. Um
it's streamed live on town of Mashby
[12:29] website www.mmashbma.gov/
[12:34] channel-8.
Um the meeting will be rebroadcast. To
[12:39] join the meeting via Zoom, the meeting
ID is 971 2130-5251.
[12:46] The meeting ID is 971-2130-5251
[12:50] and the password is 268-280.
That's 2-68-280.
[12:56] That information is on our um agenda
that was posted with the town clerk. So,
[13:00] I'd like to welcome everyone um and
invite you all to rise with me to recite
[13:05] the pledge of allegiance.
[clears throat]
[13:09] I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the
[13:13] republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[13:19] justice for all.
>> Thank you. First order of business is
[13:25] approval of minutes. We have two sets of
minutes. January 10th um 2026 and the
[13:31] minutes of our meeting on January 21st,
2026. I reviewed them um quickly. I
[13:37] didn't see any um edits or corrections.
Does anybody have any edits or
[13:40] corrections to these sets of minutes?
>> No.
[13:45] » Okay. I'll take a motion to um approve
um the minutes of January 10th, 2026 as
[13:52] presented.
>> Is there a second?
[13:54] » Second.
>> Second.
[13:56] » Oh, you know what I got to do? I have to
open up the meeting by roll call vote
[13:59] because we have somebody remoting in.
Sorry. So, um who's present? Michael.
[14:06] Yes,
>> Dennis.
[14:08] » Yes,
>> Dale.
[14:09] » Yes,
>> Cameron Faulner.
[14:11] » Yes,
>> Rob.
[14:13] » Yes,
>> Mary Wagan. So, all our votes have to be
[14:16] by roll call vote. So, um we have a
first and a second for the minutes of
[14:20] January 10th, 2026.
Um
[14:25] by roll call vote, Michael,
>> yes.
[14:27] » Dennis,
>> yes.
[14:28] » Dale,
>> abstain.
[14:30] » Karen,
>> yes.
[14:32] » Mary is a yes. Um the minutes of January
21st, 2026. Do I have a motion to
[14:39] approve as presented?
>> So be second.
[14:43] » There's a second. Thank you. By roll any
discussion by roll call vote. Michael,
[14:48] » yes.
>> Dennis,
[14:49] » yes.
>> Dale,
[14:50] » yes.
>> Karen,
[14:51] » yes.
>> Mary, yes. Okay. All right. We have a
[14:55] public hearing. Um we did get a uh
request to continue that, but we'll have
[15:00] to do that at 6:40.
Um,
[15:06] there are
invoices.
[15:09] » Yes, there are.
[15:13] » I'm going to um, regarding the invoices,
I'm just going to recommend we hold back
[15:17] the uh, 2026 invoice number 2352 for
Island Pickle. I'd like the opportunity
[15:23] to discuss that invoice with the
applicant. He had uh expressed some well
[15:29] he had made a request to be able to
review invoices. Um
[15:33] » okay so um the the chair will table
invoice number 2026-2352.
[15:43] » Okay. We'll put that on the next
>> agenda.
[15:47] » Okay.
[15:51] » All right. We have five minutes. Um
okay. We have an invoice number
[15:55] 2026-2348.
[15:59] The project location is 474 Main Street
and 31 Schumit Road. The balance due is
[16:06] 1,76769.
[16:11] The work is travel time review plans and
letter travel and attendance to planning
[16:15] board meetings. Is there a motion to
approve payment?
[16:22] » So be. Is there a second?
>> Second.
[16:27] » Okay. Any discussion? By roll call vote.
Michael,
[16:31] » yes.
>> Dennis,
[16:32] » yes.
>> Dale,
[16:33] » yes.
>> Karen,
[16:35] » yes.
>> Mary, yes. Oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm going
[16:37] to abstain.
>> Yes.
[16:40] » Okay. Next invoice. 2026-2349.
[16:46] This is Osprey Court, Great Oak Road
subdivision. The amount is $1,71855.
[16:56] This is for travel time preparation of
emails with contractor regarding rosion
[17:00] control uh erosion control and travel
and attendance at planning board
[17:05] meetings. Is there a motion to ex uh to
uh approve payment?
[17:10] » So second
>> Dale's a second. Any discussion by roll
[17:15] call vote. Michael,
>> yes.
[17:17] » Dennis,
>> yes.
[17:18] » Dale,
>> yes. Karen,
[17:20] » yes.
>> Mary's a yes.
[17:24] » The next one is 20 2026-2350
for the amount of $2,164.38.
[17:33] Um, the work is at Country Club Estates.
Um this is the attend this is for
[17:39] attendance at planning board meetings,
travel and site visits to conduct to
[17:42] review existing conditions meet with
contractor review construction plans and
[17:47] [snorts] at travel and attendance at
planning board meetings.
[17:50] Is there a motion to accept?
>> So be second.
[17:55] » And Dale's a second. Now these funds
this 21164
[18:01] does this come out of
>> this at present is coming out of the
[18:05] department budget
>> and we still have money for that.
[18:08] » Uh yes it is funded. Um it is it is
funded. I I do want to now that we have
[18:14] new engineers and uh you know this uh
departmental funding of these invoices
[18:20] predated my tenure in the planning
department. I do want to have a
[18:23] conversation with our new engineers and
with the applicant about um the most
[18:29] appropriate path forward.
>> Okay.
[18:32] » But we have money to cover this. Okay.
Good.
[18:35] » Um by roll call vote.
>> Yes.
[18:37] » Michael, that was Michael. Dennis,
>> yes.
[18:39] » Dale,
>> yes.
[18:40] » Karen,
>> yes.
[18:42] » Mary is a yes. Okay.
Um, next one is 2606-2351
[18:50] for the amount of $1,951.38.
[18:54] This is for Willow Circle engineering
peer review and construction inspection
[18:59] plans. This is for travel and uh site
visit emails with Mr. Miller Scott
[19:05] Miller regarding final work items
evaluation estimate and preparation of
[19:09] email report for Willow Circle bond
reduction request. also travel in
[19:14] attendance to planning board meetings.
So, this the project proponent is paying
[19:20] for, right? Correct. Okay. Is there a um
a motion to approve the payment of this?
[19:25] » Yes. So, be
>> is there a second?
[19:28] » Second.
>> Any comments by roll call vote? Michael?
[19:32] » Yes.
>> Dennis?
[19:33] » Yes.
>> Dale?
[19:34] » Yes.
>> Karen?
[19:36] » Yes.
>> Mary is a yes.
[19:39] » The next one is a hold. That's 20263552.
The last one is 2026-2353.
[19:47] It's for $95. It's review of an ANR at
17 and 23 Alma Road.
[19:56] Now, this is something that comes out of
our department budget.
[19:59] » This is department
>> and we have money to cover this.
[20:02] » Yeah. Actually, we may we may have it's
funded either way. We may have received
[20:07] um some money from the applicant for it,
but it's it is funded either way.
[20:12] » All right. I'd take a mo I'd accept a
motion to approve.
[20:14] » It's $95. So be
>> Is there a second?
[20:19] » Second.
>> Second.
[20:20] » I'll in um any any discussion by roll
call vote. Michael,
[20:25] » yes.
>> Dennis,
[20:26] » yes.
>> Dale,
[20:27] » yes.
>> Karen,
[20:28] » yes.
>> Mary is a yes. Okay.
[20:33] » Okay.
Excuse [clears throat]
[20:41] me.
[20:44] Seeing that the appointed time has
arrived, uh the chair opens up the
[20:48] public hearing. The applica of 6
scheduled for 6:40 tonight. The
[20:52] applicant is Shellback Development LLC.
The location is 647 Falmouth Road, 9
[20:58] Shellback Way, Mashby, Mass. The
assessor's map is 81 parcel 132. The
[21:02] request is a special permit to construct
a 13,229
[21:06] plus or minus square foot realy
specialty realy grocery store on 3.97
[21:12] plus or minus acres of undeveloped land
pursuant to sections 17424 C and 1742E1
[21:19] and E2 of the Mash zoning bylaw. So, we
received um a request from the project
[21:25] proponent to continue um the matter um
to February 18th.
[21:34] » Is Mary Wagan on there?
>> Yeah.
[21:36] » So, this is behind that one.
>> So, I we can hear you. [laughter]
[21:41] Hello. Um thank you for zooming in.
So just to explain to everybody um so
[21:49] when we uh get a request from the
project proponent um to continue the
[21:54] meeting um the chair um asks for a
motion in a second and a vote to
[22:00] continue it. We don't open up um the the
public hearing tonight for public
[22:05] comment. Um, if there are people that do
have public comment that's new or
[22:10] something special, I recommend you uh
send it immediately into the planning
[22:15] board so that we have it in our packets
for our next meeting. Um, and that email
[22:19] is planning boardba.gov.
[22:24] Okay. Um, so thank you for attending. I
sometimes we don't know about this till
[22:29] the last minute. Um, this was in our
packet. Um, but if there's something
[22:33] like this, you can always check with the
planning department um 508-5391414
[22:40] um to double check that the public
hearing will be held and that there's no
[22:44] continuence. I'm going to have you talk
to our town planner if you have a
[22:47] question because I was wondering you
don't you still don't entertain before
[22:51] you you don't entertain it for people
that came here to talk.
[22:55] » No,
>> because the project proponent isn't
[22:57] here.
>> But what if I wanted to talk to the
[22:59] board? So, so what I'm I'm asking if you
if you have comment, I would email it
[23:06] into the planning board at mashbma.gov.
Um, [clears throat]
[23:11] » or or also come to the continued hearing
date.
[23:14] » Oh, yeah. You can come to the continue
hearing which they've asked uh to
[23:17] continue this till February for uh
sorry, February 18th,
[23:22] and I recommend a 6:40 start time. Yes.
>> So, I watched it on Zoom and I would
[23:28] have to do that on the 18th.
>> [cough]
[23:31] » I couldn't [clears throat] figure out
how to because you open it up for
[23:34] comments from the people watching on
Zoom. I couldn't figure out how to do
[23:38] that. Is it on
>> Do you know how to raise your hand when
[23:41] you're on Zoom?
>> Yes. So I if I raised my hand then you
[23:46] would have allowed then you guys do
something to allow
[23:50] » Yeah. You're not you're not
automatically muted.
[23:53] » Okay.
>> Right. Like we don't mute everybody. I
[23:57] think that um we could if people started
getting rowdy, but if you ever find
[24:02] yourself in a situation where you don't
know how to raise your hand, just call
[24:08] out to me.
>> Okay.
[24:09] » Like, madame chair. Madam chair, I want
to be recognized
[24:13] » and you can hear that.
>> Oh, yeah.
[24:15] » Okay. Because I couldn't. All right. I
didn't realize that. Yeah. I'm going to
[24:19] watch on the 18.
>> Yeah. Okay.
[24:24] » Okay.
Yeah, I will just quickly add we did we
[24:29] did try to get the word out as much as
possible because we didn't want to
[24:32] inconvenience people. Um, so luckily it
looks like the majority of the public
[24:38] did get the word. Some folks had
contacted us to confirm directly. We
[24:42] wanted folks to know it was continued.
a bit of backstory that's not in your
[24:47] packet is I was uh you know through my
assistant engaging in a little bit of
[24:51] dialogue with the applicant and uh
learned that the the lead of the
[24:55] applicant was actually going to be out
of town this week. So we then called up
[24:59] his council's office uh and asked him
whether or not they plan to continue and
[25:04] then got this email the next day. So
[25:10] » okay. So, I'd accept a motion to
continue this public hearing to February
[25:15] 18th at 6:40 p.m.
>> So, be.
[25:18] » Is there a second?
>> Second.
[25:20] » Any discussion?
>> By roll call vote, Michael?
[25:23] » Yes.
>> Dennis?
[25:24] » Yes.
>> Dale?
[25:25] » Yes.
>> Karen?
[25:27] » Yes.
>> Mary's a yes. Okay.
[25:30] Thank you.
[25:37] I feel like I can breathe. [laughter]
[25:47] All right.
[25:52] » All right. So, um,
excuse [clears throat] me. The next item
[25:57] is board engineer report. Do we have our
engineer zooming in or do we have any
[26:04] report?
>> Uh, the engineer is not zooming in
[26:05] because there is nothing to report this
evening. So, I thought I would be kind
[26:09] and allow her to have the evening off.
>> Cool. And then, um, we did the invoices.
[26:15] Okay. Now, we can get right into the LCP
review and update.
[26:37] Okay. So, oh,
>> so we have two chapters to look at
[26:41] tonight. First one is land use and
growth management
[26:46] and the second one is municipal
buildings facilities and services. So,
[26:52] who wants to lead us through the land
use and growth management?
[26:56] » Be happy to.
>> Okay, Brian.
[26:57] » That was that was my chapter. It was
assigned to me.
[26:59] » It [laughter] was. Okay, good. Go for
it. So, uh, I did make some fairly
[27:04] substantive changes to this chapter. I
think in large part because there were a
[27:10] number of themes, um, that I thought the
public might want reflected. Uh, not the
[27:16] least of which is the important of
balancing any development with our need
[27:20] to protect the environment as well as
protect uh, nitrogen and phosphorus
[27:24] input. um as well as continued the
legacy
[27:29] um or tradition of having a significant
amount of land restricted for
[27:33] conservation and open space purposes.
And then finally to uh preserve,
[27:39] maintain and promote the kind of Cape
Cod feel and aesthetics of of
[27:45] construction in town. Um so that those
are the ongoing themes. Um there's a lot
[27:51] of red lines to go through regarding
that. There seemed to be in the prior
[27:55] version a little bit more of a theme to
uh urbanize Mashbby and just based on
[28:01] general comments from town officials as
well as members of the public that theme
[28:06] [clears throat]
doesn't really appear to track with um
[28:11] the overarching perspective of the
public. So those were the significant
[28:15] » that that's the reason for the
significant changes to this chapter.
[28:20] Uh so I'm not if the board wants we can
go through each one line by line or we
[28:26] can do page by page or if anybody has
any particular questions.
[28:32] » Why don't you call out the goals?
>> Okay,
[28:34] » just go right down.
>> So
[28:36] » and ask if anybody has any comments for
like LU1.
[28:40] » Yeah. So for goals LU1 through
LU7, I can ask if anybody has any
[28:46] comments. I'll let you know that there
were just adjustments made to LU2, LU3,
[28:50] and then LU7 was added. Um,
>> I was just wondering on LU3.
[28:57] » Yep.
>> If we can somehow weave um wastewater
[29:02] infrastructure in there.
>> Okay. And actually, thank you. You're
[29:04] just you're now you're now pointing to
another uh small change I realized in
[29:09] that section is that I I I added both an
LU3 and an LU7. So when you're
[29:14] referencing LU3, you mean the new LU3 or
the prior LU3?
[29:18] » The redlinined LU3.
>> The all. Yeah. So balance development
[29:21] with protecting open space by
encouraging innovative ways for
[29:24] development to promote open space,
recreation, conservation, and
[29:28] agriculture.
And what did you want to add or what did
[29:32] you think?
>> I don't know like wastewater management
[29:34] or water water. You know, we have big
storm water and wastewater initiatives.
[29:40] » Yeah. Should we somehow throw those in
in some of our goals?
[29:44] » Yeah, absolutely. How about
[clears throat and cough] because I I
[29:46] feel like protecting the environment
covers both of those two categories. So
[29:51] potentially like to not be too verbio,
we can just say for development to
[29:56] protect the environment as well as
promote open space, recreation,
[30:00] conservation and agriculture. Would that
work or
[30:04] » No.
>> Okay. I think with protecting
[30:07] I I think we we you should just by
encouraging innovative ways for de for
[30:12] development to promote open space,
recreation, conservation, agriculture
[30:17] and clean water.
>> Okay, that works too.
[30:20] » That's it.
>> Yep.
[30:23] » Because that will capture our storm
water and our waste water.
[30:26] » That works.
>> And it's clear.
[30:29] » And it's clear clean water.
So under prior LU3 and current LU4, I
[30:36] just added and open space after
wastewater treatment.
[30:40] » Yep.
>> Uh then the only other change to goals
[30:43] was LU7, which is partner with local
land owners to encourage development
[30:47] that allow aligns with town values like
protecting our environment, promoting
[30:52] open space, and preserving Cape Cod
aesthetics.
[30:56] » It's put in there, clean water.
>> Okay. promoting open space, cleaning up
[31:00] our water,
whatever the grammatical term is.
[31:05] » I'll just say providing clean water and
preserving. Y
[31:13] » Karen, I know you're on Zoom. Do you
have any comments for goal LU1 through
[31:17] goal LU7?
>> No, I think they're all very good.
[31:28] So for uh thank you for that feedback
Aaron. For policies
[31:33] um again
other than the insertion of L LU1 and
[31:40] LU12
uh very light or sparing changes
[31:45] um with the exception of LU2. So LU1 I
inserted promote the attributes that
[31:51] make MASHBY unique, including among
others, its small town feel, its
[31:56] substantial open space, its Cape Cod
aesthetics, its noteworthy ecology, and
[32:01] its coastal charm.
So I I will say this though, there were
[32:07] instances other instances where I didn't
add it in there, but the goal of
[32:10] protecting the small town feel was in
there, which was at times at odds with
[32:16] the goal of, you know, and this is in
the substance of the paragraphs of the
[32:20] actual chapter. Um, it was at times
seemingly at odds with the goal of
[32:27] effectively urbanizing MASHB. So I just
wanted to make sure that because it was
[32:31] in the substance of the chapters, we
actually brought it forward to the goals
[32:35] and uh and policies. So
>> thank you.
[32:40] » Yeah. I on that matter mean how does
that
[32:45] impact all the development that's
happening right around Mashby Commons
[32:49] right now? We're trying to protect a
small town feel. We've got one going on
[32:53] Market Street. One one has already been
approved for cross jobs fishing.
[32:59] » Yeah,
>> there looks like another one 40B coming
[33:02] on on Route 28. Um getting a little
crowded, isn't it?
[33:07] » 100%. And I think um
I think a couple of things are worth
[33:14] noting to that effect. The first is a
lot of those projects have already been
[33:17] approved. So unfortunately the milk's
already spilled there. Uh it's something
[33:23] to keep in mind for the approval of
certain projects. Certainly when we're
[33:27] dealing with 40Bs though, then we also
have to deal with the challenge that the
[33:31] developer until we get into our safe
harbor of 10% is going to have a whole
[33:36] lot of leverage in doing what they see
fit. Um that being said though, I think
[33:41] there are ways that our department can
be proactive about it. Um you know, not
[33:47] the least of which is traffic on 28,
Mike. And I that's an important issue to
[33:50] you and uh you know I know you've
suggested a townwide traffic study
[33:55] there. I'm not sure if that's something
you want to chat about now more.
[33:58] » I if I don't know if it's the
appropriate time but I did mentioned it
[34:01] to Rodney Collins. He said he had funds
for a study and I think an independent
[34:06] study you know as I understand it. Uh, I
mean, there's only going to be one entry
[34:11] from into the 40B project on 28, and
that's going to be on jobs fishing, and
[34:18] it's going to be a short distance from
from the light to the entrance to that
[34:23] development. And that's I mean, we're
moving a lot of moving pieces around
[34:28] now. And I'd really like to see if we
could
[34:31] » fully fully agreed. The unfortunate
reality of that is that it does fall
[34:34] under a 40B. So unless the developer
I it's it's the developer needs to to a
[34:41] certain extent out of the kindness of
their heart um make adjustments to the
[34:46] plans that could be beneficial to the
town as a whole. There's uh less than in
[34:52] the usual circumstances we can do to um
force their hand so to speak. Uh to
[35:00] begin with that's a commercially zoned
area, right? So 40B is what's allowing
[35:04] them to put residences in there in the
first place.
[35:09] So that's kind of the nature of that
beast that we're dealing with.
[35:12] » Well, it's becoming a bit of a beast for
me. I
[35:14] » mean I mean Mashp Commons is the reason
why a lot of people come here and now
[35:20] just plunking down development after
development around it because it's it's
[35:26] possible is going to it's going to cause
significant issues I think. But
[35:32] » and the other thing like the other
things we can control
[35:35] not only what we approve when projects
come before us but our zoning right
[35:41] we've been asked to to uh change our
zoning and the town has said no right um
[35:51] what we do with our town funding
>> the town has said no by select board has
[35:55] said no or is it
>> no the outcry the public outcry to the
[35:59] point that the per the the group
proposing the zoning withdrew,
[36:05] you know. So, that's something that's
under our control, you know, like how do
[36:09] how how do we preserve our our small
town feel? Well, you don't you don't
[36:15] approve zoning that would overdevelop
the town,
[36:18] » right? You approve zoning that preserves
our small town feel. Also, you know,
[36:25] what do you do with your town funds,
your community preservation money,
[36:29] right? you don't sponsor
um a development that's, you know, going
[36:34] to pollute our waters, going to do, you
know, add to our traffic congestion,
[36:39] that kind of stuff. [clears throat]
>> And the town can also use those funds to
[36:43] acquire
pivotal pieces of land to preserve them.
[36:48] » Right.
>> Right. So that there are some things we
[36:50] can do. We can't control everything and
the planning board can't control
[36:53] everything, but to have this as a goal
is important.
[36:57] » Control it all though. Mashby Commons um
you know they own what 180 acres of land
[37:03] they've developed 50
>> right? Yeah, they have permits that
[37:08] » and they have they have a a a
comprehensive permit from
[37:13] [clears throat] 2007 which actually when
you look at comprehensive permits it's
[37:18] really not that bad, right? I think it
comes to about 10 units per acre or
[37:23] something like that. I forget. I did
that calculation once.
[37:26] » It is it is spread out. The majority of
the density is near the commercial area
[37:30] of the commons because then you know the
way it's modeled out is something like
[37:35] the the remaining 280 plus or minus a uh
units are spread out on a large acre
[37:41] parcel back behind Job's Fishing Road
and have more of a townhouse or single
[37:47] family home feel to it.
>> So they could have put a lot more.
[37:51] » Do you know what I mean? Like the
architecture is nice, the planning is
[37:55] nice. It's a walkable community. It's
near our senior center. It's near our
[37:59] library. It's near, you know, it it I if
if it was not a chapter 40B and it was a
[38:07] DRRi, a development of regional impact,
probably the roads would have been
[38:11] improved a little bit more, you know,
but hey, that's life in the big city.
[38:16] There was a Mass Works um grant for that
road. Job's
[38:21] » Fish.
They got money from the state to build
[38:26] that road.
>> Now it's a town road, right?
[38:29] » Now it's a town road, but
>> Oh, I thought Job's Fishing was still
[38:33] private.
>> It got it. It is private, but it got a
[38:37] Mass Works.
>> Okay.
[38:38] » Grant for the infrastructure,
>> but it wasn't. So, but it hasn't been
[38:41] adopted at town meeting as a town road,
right?
[38:44] » Yeah.
>> I don't think so.
[38:46] » That's the way it works.
>> That's why remember the curbing?
[38:49] » Yeah.
>> Remember like you were like, "What the
[38:51] heck? What's with all this curbing?
That's because that was from that was
[38:54] funded by Mass Works, I think.
>> And and and uh
[38:57] » they got the right to put house in there
or something. They got some
[39:02] » that role. They got some
>> Well, it's probably Mass Works. It was
[39:04] almost a million dollars and it was like
I don't know like 10 years ago. So, that
[39:08] was worth a lot of money.
>> Yeah. The other thing to Mary's point
[39:11] about the 40B is I believe that parcel
that's back behind
[39:15] Job's Fishing where they're going to put
kind of the more um
[39:20] » town
the less dense feeling
[39:24] » uh also a butts on uh 151 also because
of the combined parcels of butts on 151
[39:29] as well there. So, there's a potential
for a pass through. But I think
[39:33] combining Mike and Mary's points, one of
the things that we can do if we do do a
[39:38] traffic study is then consider passing
bylaws specifically related to traffic
[39:44] management, like zoning bylaws that are
specifically related to it, you know.
[39:49] » Well, I I'm
>> We'd like to hear more. Why don't you
[39:51] put that as a You better put that as an
action step.
[39:55] » Yeah.
>> Is it Would it
[39:57] » That's actually not a bad idea.
Okay, we're going to add that to an
[40:01] should it go in this? I'll recognize you
in one second, Karen. Would that be an
[40:06] action step for this land?
>> I think so. I mean, if we do them as
[40:09] zoning bylaws, absolutely.
>> All right. So, we would we want to
[40:14] investigate,
[40:18] zoning tools
to manage
[40:24] traffic congestion.
>> Yeah. Where do you want to put that?
[40:29] » I think that's that's an action step
under this in this sure chapter.
[40:34] » Which number? I mean
>> just add it to the end.
[40:36] » Okay.
>> And and include a independent traffic
[40:40] study.
>> Definitely. Yeah.
[40:42] » I think we have a traffic study in the
traffic and um
[40:46] » we can say based on an independent.
>> Yep.
[40:48] » Yeah.
>> Based on
[40:51] » Right.
>> So what was that wording there? Cuz I
[40:53] really like that wording. Um,
investigate zoning tools to manage
[40:56] traffic congestion based on townwide
traffic
[41:03] study.
>> And you know what else actually
[41:08] » based on future
>> future in that
[41:12] town anticipated?
>> Yeah.
[41:15] » Townwide traffic study.
>> Hey Karen, respectfully, is there a
[41:20] volume button on your mic? cuz we've
kind of tried to troubleshoot everything
[41:24] on our end and you're still coming out
very very loud over here. Do you have do
[41:28] you have a volume button on your mic?
>> I can turn it down. You're telling me
[41:33] I'm turning it down as we I speak. How
is that
[41:38] » loud? Yeah, I guess it I guess there's
something else.
[41:40] » No, no, I do when I turn that down,
you disappear.
[41:45] » Oh, really?
>> No, that's not that's that's
[41:48] » that's your volume. What you want to
look for is your mic volume.
[41:52] » Yep.
>> What if I just talk like this?
[41:57] » That's better.
>> Whisper.
[41:59] » Okay,
>> I'll whisper. I'll pretend I'm in
[42:00] church.
>> Pretend you're me. [laughter]
[42:04] » Okay.
>> Um
[42:06] » Okay. So, where were we? Oh, sorry.
>> So, we added an action and we're we're
[42:11] on policies now.
>> Uh yeah, sorry. I just wanted to double
[42:14] back over that wording. This is in
actions.
[42:16] » Karen, I'm sorry. Karen, did you want to
say something?
[42:21] » Yeah, I wanted to say I'm whispering.
I don't think Mike is aware that um
[42:27] Mashby Commons can build on 28 across
the street.
[42:32] » Yeah,
>> but maybe Brian can
[42:33] » I am aware.
>> It's already
[42:36] » the shed place deal. Well, it it's a
done deal to the extent that zoning they
[42:44] can they can construct there in
accordance with current zoning. It's not
[42:49] a done deal in the sense that they may
want to partner with the town to do a
[42:54] more proactive layout with the remaining
land, you know, that is mutually
[42:59] beneficial.
>> Yeah. They don't have a special permit
[43:01] for that area yet.
>> No, there there's there's nothing
[43:03] permitted there. So they can only
construct to my knowledge there's
[43:07] nothing permanent
>> there
[43:09] about all that you know years ago they
had big designs like right across the
[43:15] street right beside the gas station.
Yep. A piece there behind the picnic box
[43:20] they own that then where the stop and
shop is they own all the way up to the
[43:25] the fire station
>> and they were going to put housing and
[43:28] stuff there. They had this big plan and
it was a lot
[43:32] » and it was about it it it's it's come
before us twice.
[43:36] » Welcome
>> months worth of public comment and both
[43:40] times they've withdrawn their proposal
>> and then they were working with the Cape
[43:46] Commission
>> without telling us.
[43:51] » Point is they had the right to build
something.
[43:53] » The first round was pretty bad,
[laughter]
[43:56] » right? I mean, one one reason to
potentially look into partnering with
[44:02] them would be that if they could just
sell off the land to the highest bidder.
[44:08] » That's what they're going to be doing.
>> And so that that could result in
[44:13] something to the effect of a hyis.
>> Yeah. you know,
[44:16] » which
>> one time they came [snorts] in.
[44:18] » I say I say that with the knowledge of
just feedback that I've received from
[44:22] people in Hyannis, not personal
experience, but
[44:25] » years ago they mentioned that and I said
to him, are you still going to control
[44:29] the development once you sell it to like
say me and I was going to put up
[44:34] building up my design and he said, "Oh
no, you have to go buy our book and
[44:38] stuff."
>> But that was like 15 20 years ago. You
[44:42] know what I'm saying? Agreed. Yeah, I
get it.
[44:44] » So, you can sell if you own land, you
can sell it to somebody with some type
[44:49] of restriction on it.
>> Yeah, you can. But,
[44:51] » i.e., you know,
you're going to you're going to start to
[44:56] to build out portions of of land that
are part of a master plan where, you
[45:02] know, it might behoove them to continue
the architectural and site design
[45:08] standards they've already placed there
because it keeps the value of their
[45:11] current property. 100%. And and I will
say that the the main area of the
[45:17] Commons, you know,
has a the walkability component gives it
[45:23] a very kind of charming feel compared to
other
[45:26] » Yeah.
>> more congested,
[45:29] less,
organized,
[45:33] you know, center areas, for lack of a
better phrase.
[45:37] » Yeah.
>> So,
[45:38] » and and we have always had an open door
for them to come in. So um you got to
[45:42] remember master is dealing with younger
people now. The daughter took over.
[45:47] » Yeah.
>> Chase in the background, but
[45:50] » they have different ideas.
>> Yeah.
[45:52] » Well, isn't it possible to get them in
for conversation about this long range
[45:57] planning?
>> Yeah, we could. I mean,
[46:00] » we could anything's possible, Mike.
>> I mean, when you this so quickly.
[46:05] » Well, so and I I and Rob and Dennis was
went through this. I mean, we we left
[46:12] it. We had 27 questions for them.
We've never heard back, you know what I
[46:18] mean? So, the door was open for them
anytime to come back and talk to us
[46:22] about their master plan,
>> you know, their projections, how we can
[46:26] help them,
>> especially with a new body, somebody in
[46:29] position, open the door again.
>> So, guys, I don't I don't mean to be
[46:33] rude, but I do want to focus on this
chapter.
[46:36] » I think Okay.
>> Yeah.
[46:39] [cough] I so I [clears throat] just
wanted to get that wording that you
[46:41] suggested. Mary,
>> do we have any action items about like
[46:44] working cooperatively with developers to
um meet our goals and policies?
[46:49] » So, let's let's look, but can I first
just I didn't hear all of the wording
[46:53] that you suggested the last time, so I
just want to make sure I have it.
[46:57] Investigate zoning tools to manage
traffic congestion in current and
[47:01] anticipated. That's all I got.
>> No. Uh to manage traffic congest
[47:06] congestion. Yeah.
>> Um, based upon
[47:10] » Yep.
>> anticipated
[47:14] » development
>> townwide traffic study.
[47:17] » Based upon and anticipated
and
[47:21] » Yep.
>> and comprehensive. How's that, Brian?
[47:24] Okay.
Let me read that back to everybody. Lots
[47:28] of adjectives there.
[47:33] Investigate zoning tools to manage
traffic congestion based upon
[47:37] comprehensive and anticipated townwide
traffic study.
[47:43] » Awesome.
>> Okay.
[47:44] » All right.
>> And then we want to add an action item.
[47:47] We're cooperatively.
>> So that's the L4.
[47:50] » I think there is stuff in there though.
So let's just make sure because I mean
[47:54] there's a lot of action items here and I
do
[47:56] » recall there being something to that
effect in here. But if it's
[47:59] insufficient, then we should uh
certainly add it.
[48:04] » Okay. So, we've gone through the goals,
right?
[48:07] » Yep. We're on the action.
>> All right. We're on policies now.
[48:10] » Yep. And um
[48:16] so I just rewarded goal one. I'm not
sure if the board
[48:20] » goal one or policy one,
>> excuse me, policy one. I'm not sure if
[48:23] the board wants me to walk them through
all the details of that, but again, it
[48:27] was with this theme of promoting open
space, recreation, conservation, and
[48:32] agriculture was kind of the bigger ad to
it. Um
[48:38] and then other than that, the only other
major change to the policy section was
[48:43] LU12, which is obtained safe harbor by
affordable housing that promotes livable
[48:48] communities incorporating open space,
recreation, conservation or agriculture
[48:54] as well as Cape Cod aesthetics.
>> I I want to jump to that one.
[48:59] » Okay. Is this cross-pollinated um in for
the in the housing section?
[49:04] » I believe so. I mean, our housing
section. Oh. Oh. Oh. You in the LCP?
[49:09] » In the LCP.
>> I just I just want to make sure LU12 Y
[49:14] » is repeated in the housing section.
>> We can do that. Yeah.
[49:30] Okay. Um,
>> so
[49:33] » can we go to to LU policy LU6?
>> Sure. And that is new
[49:40] » ensure that any new growth. Yeah. Okay.
>> Ensure that any
[49:46] » Karen, did you want to go? Go ahead.
>> Correction on policy. Lu says 54. What
[49:54] does that mean? That four
>> identify opportunities. Okay. Five.
[50:00] Identify opportunities for mixed use
development existing blah blah blah that
[50:04] are designed.
>> Just a verb there.
[50:11] » Instead of is designed ours is
>> Sorry. What number was that? I I just
[50:15] » number five.
>> Number five.
[50:17] » Yeah. But so old five or new five?
>> New five.
[50:20] » Let's do all the new numbers.
>> Okay.
[50:24] So areas that are designed to
[50:35] I have one for number six.
I think we should say to meet our um
[50:42] TDMLS
or clean water goals.
[50:46] » Where do you want that located? um
provide high quality drinking water and
[50:52] to meet our clean water goals such as
TDMLS.
[50:56] I lost my mic.
[51:00] » Can you still hear me?
>> I can hear you fine.
[51:02] » All right. to ensure that any new growth
does not exceed the town's capacity to
[51:07] provide high quality drinking water and
instead of andor treat waste water
[51:14] » say to meet our clean water goals and
TDMLS
[51:20] » MDLs
>> TMDLs
[51:27] » all right so sorry after wastewater what
do you want
[51:30] » so strike
treat
[51:33] wastewater
and replace it with meet our clean water
[51:38] goals including to meeting our TMDLs.
[51:53] » Okay.
And should we put something about storm
[51:58] water in there too or
[52:02] I think it's okay because we have clean
meet our clean water goals. Okay.
[52:10] » I'm sorry. Policy 33
33.
[52:15] There's another little
[snorts]
[52:19] » Can you tell us which one you're on?
Just read it.
[52:23] » Okay. It's um
ensure town services and facilities are
[52:29] adequately addressing.
>> So, it's policy number three.
[52:34] » Yep, I got it.
>> Okay.
[52:37] » I'd also like you to read and explain,
and I know that you didn't probably
[52:40] write this one, but LU9.
[52:46] » Um, yeah, I I did not write that one. It
says ensure coordination of planning and
[52:51] management efforts.
>> The one before,
[52:53] » right?
>> Oh, okay. that says provide for limited
[52:56] neighborhood serving businesses where
appropriate.
[53:01] I have no idea what that is. I just it
was a carry forward from a prior draft
[53:06] so I didn't I didn't want to touch it
because I didn't understand it.
[53:08] » So I think this is what it is
>> I wanted to make sure I think it was me.
[53:15] I wanted to make sure that in every part
of our town we were able to have like a
[53:21] little convenience store or a little
coffee shop or a newspaper stand. You
[53:24] know what I mean? Like I didn't want any
part of our town to not have access to a
[53:29] place they could get a cup of coffee, a
gallon of milk, the newspaper.
[53:35] » Sounds kind of urban.
>> Yeah. You think that's too much?
[53:39] » All right, let's strike it.
>> Strike that.
[53:43] Well, it says where appropriate.
I mean, I don't think it I don't think
[53:49] that necessarily says every part of
town. Do do we have do we have areas in
[53:54] town that like don't have things like
that and people find that they have to
[53:59] » be their burden
>> she see from from
[54:03] the start of the fall when everybody
leaves and everybody shuts down their
[54:07] businesses and at puffiness
you know Dennis you're how how far are
[54:12] you from the for Roge brothers 5 miles
six miles
[54:15] » yeah 10 miles up five miles up five
miles back you know off the ros
[54:20] » yeah but That's in part market forces,
right? Because much of that area of town
[54:26] is not annual.
>> I'm not really worried about it. The
[54:29] three miles I have to go to Roach
Brothers is okay, but
[54:32] » yeah. And and when it's summertime and
when it's summertime, you can walk to
[54:36] some commercial places, right? It's good
healthy walk, but it's
[54:41] » actually, you know, where Top Spin Way
is, there was talk of a coffee shop
[54:45] convenience store [clears throat]
>> at that intersection with Great Oak.
[54:52] » As long as they serve good coffee, I'm
for it.
[54:56] » Do you think we need that or
>> No. [clears throat] Okay, let's strike
[54:59] it.
[55:02] » Yeah, I think it's uh vague and
confusing. Yes, it's vague and confusing
[55:07] and not necessary.
>> All right.
[55:13] » Any Go ahead, Brian. Sorry.
>> Oh, no. That's all right. I was just
[55:16] going to move on to actions unless uh
[55:22] » so um
[sighs and gasps]
[55:25] » I'll I'll just touch upon the the
heftier changes. Um so LU2
[55:32] um again I added preserve Cape Cod
aesthetics and promote open space
[55:36] recreation conservation and agriculture.
Um for LU5
[55:43] um
I said prioritize affordable housing
[55:48] that is connected to town sewer or is
otherwise net zero for nitrogen and
[55:54] phosphorus input. utilizes best
practices for a green community like
[55:58] solar power and thermal heating.
Incorporates Cape Cod aesthetics into
[56:03] its design scheme and includes open
space as recreation, conservation or
[56:08] agriculture. I just felt that that was a
sufficient expansion of what the
[56:14] originally worded LU5 was trying to
accomplish, which simply said prioritize
[56:21] waiverss from the flow neutral bylaw to
support friendly 4DB projects that help
[56:25] the town meet the affordable housing.
Actually, I guess it really turns that
[56:29] on its head because it's saying we're
not prioritizing waiverss to flow
[56:32] neutral bylaw. We're trying to
prioritize affordable housing that is
[56:36] flow neutral, i.e. gone sewer. So,
>> yeah, I like that.
[56:42] » Can you cross-pollinate that to the
housing?
[56:44] » Sure.
>> Make sure it's in the housing ch.
[56:46] » Okay.
>> Do we have geothermal?
[56:50] » I wouldn't expect it on the Cape.
>> I know.
[56:54] » Oh, it's possible. Yeah, it's actually
growing. It's actually growing. Yeah.
[56:57] Okay.
>> That's the newest. Thank you.
[56:59] » Yeah. No, I want it.
>> Solar power.
[57:02] » They've been having a lot of bad
problems with
[57:03] » Well, and it heats your house.
>> Yeah. You don't have to dig that far
[57:06] below the frost either. There's a guy
like out in, I don't know, Omaha or
[57:13] Nebraska and some place where it gets
cold in the winter. He's got a
[57:17] greenhouse that stays at a consistent
70° and he grows his own orange trees in
[57:23] it. Like while there's snow outside, he
wants fresh squeezed orange juice. He
[57:28] just walks out to his greenhouse, plucks
an orange, comes back inside.
[57:32] » Please don't show my husband that.
[laughter]
[57:35] I definitely got a little jealous
myself.
[57:37] » Be like, "Yeah, let's go."
[57:42] » Uh, so LU
six. Oh, no. That's a minor change. Uh,
[57:49] LU9 I rewarded to to say develop a
formbbased code. I think we should even
[57:55] say explore developing a formbbased
code, but yeah. Okay, good.
[57:59] » All right.
[58:05] Explore developing a formbbased code
uh to encourage aesthetically pleasing
[58:12] structural
structures utilizing Cape Cod design
[58:15] schemes.
uh consistency with the traditional
[58:19] character of the town and the region and
seamless integration and utilization of
[58:26] appropriate
structure size
[58:31] uh type and design considered overlay
first. So that previously read as
[58:38] develop a formbbased code
uh that would encourage aesthetically
[58:44] pleasing
consistent
[58:48] yeah I guess it was grammatically
incorrect but consistent with the
[58:51] traditional character of the town and
type
[58:57] considered overlay first. So part of it
was grammatical but part of it I think
[59:02] really just kind of unpacked more
what we're talking about in terms of
[59:07] consistency.
[59:11] All right, I got some comments on these
>> and then everything else in the activity
[59:16] section was, you know, fairly cosmetic
or, you know, like for example, it
[59:22] talked about the HPP, but it dated the
the last draft before adoption, whereas
[59:28] the draft that was adopted was 2025, so
I fixed the year. You know, little
[59:32] little changes like that in the activity
sections.
[59:36] So LU3 which talks about uh reassess the
role of transfer of development rights
[59:43] um
and growth management priorities and
[59:47] consider overhaul of the open space
incentive development bylaw. I'd like to
[59:53] add to make it more accessible
[59:58] because it's it was designed for one
property owner only.
[1:00:03] » Yeah.
>> Right. And the way that was done was it
[1:00:07] the minimum
acreage was 20 acres. So nobody else in
[1:00:13] town owns 20 acres of continuous land.
So there's a couple of ways to do that.
[1:00:21] One, you would allow this on smaller
continuous land or allow people to
[1:00:28] cobble together
>> parcels. So, it's it's it needs some
[1:00:32] skilled planning to make sure this
doesn't go down wide. Um, but that was
[1:00:37] one of the comments that was received at
some of the public meetings
[1:00:42] um
on expansion of Mashby Commons with
[1:00:47] formbbased code was that other people
were saying, well, I I own seven acres.
[1:00:53] How come I can't use it?
>> Yeah, that's interesting. They can of
[1:00:58] course avail themselves of the cluster
development provisions.
[1:01:02] » Yeah. But they wanted to do commercial.
They wanted to do top of the shop,
[1:01:06] commercial, walkable. Okay.
>> And they had
[1:01:11] partnerships
with other land owners
[1:01:15] » where they could have provided the open
space offsite
[1:01:20] and concentrated the development on this
like 7 acre parcel. So um there was some
[1:01:27] discussion that it should be opened up
to other property owners.
[1:01:30] » Okay.
>> We spent a year or more
[1:01:35] did this but master car
[1:01:41] » and we said the words what did we say?
>> No they we changed
[1:01:44] » we said trout pond.
>> We changed their zoning father. They got
[1:01:48] to zoning chain and then they
>> decided not to go that way after they
[1:01:52] got the zoning change. Anyways, we're
not going to fall for that again. All
[1:01:56] right. So, next one is on four.
Um, I think we should add to the and and
[1:02:04] to meet MASHB's clean water goals.
[1:02:15] » I don't Do we need that one?
[1:02:26] kind of reads like a different um
>> Yeah, it's I think it's already in
[1:02:32] there, right?
>> Yeah, it reads like Yeah, I think we can
[1:02:34] strike it.
>> You think?
[1:02:38] » I think we can.
>> All right. If Dale and Mary say you can,
[1:02:43] I'm going to take their word for it.
We're just going to exit out. So, we're
[1:02:46] exing out number four. Do we know what's
going on with that flow neutral bylaw?
[1:02:50] Are there any regs coming out?
>> Well, we have the flow neutral bylaw.
[1:02:54] » All right. Do we need regs on that?
>> Um, I don't think so. I think the bylaw
[1:03:00] itself is the regulation.
>> I mean, there may be
[1:03:04] RNR associated with it, but that would
probably be under the sewer commission.
[1:03:08] So,
>> got it.
[1:03:11] Um, number eight, overhaul the MASHB
sign code with, for example, formbbased
[1:03:18] approach.
[1:03:22] So, I think I've been on one or no, I
think I've been on one committee
[1:03:28] » signed by law committee. It was nine
people. It was absolute torture and we
[1:03:31] didn't change one thing.
>> Yeah.
[1:03:33] » Um, but um if if you ever read the sign
code, you're like, you know, It's It's
[1:03:40] prime for being overhauled.
>> As long as we don't allow too many
[1:03:47] flashing neon signs in town, I shouldn't
have a problem.
[1:03:50] » Well, neon signs aren't allowed. Um, I
know
[1:03:52] » there's some signs that are popping up
that
[1:03:54] » But if you over if you overhaul it, they
people may advocate for flashing
[1:03:59] flashing neons.
>> They did.
[1:04:02] » I think I think Tom, he was like, I love
neon. I'm like, no.
[1:04:07] We the one that we that was very
interesting to look at was the town of
[1:04:11] Dennis. They actually in their code
about signs actually had pictures of
[1:04:18] what was allowed and what wasn't because
the descriptions can be interpreted in
[1:04:22] lots of different ways.
>> Yeah. Like
[1:04:24] » they finally put actual photographs in
there.
[1:04:28] » Yeah. Depending on the way it's worded
on the outside.
[1:04:33] » Yeah.
But anyways, and the last one that I
[1:04:38] have comment on is
LU13.
[1:04:45] Set a target population
that balances the projected needs of
[1:04:50] housing supply and the environmental
carrying capacity of the town following
[1:04:54] a buildout analysis.
zoning changes proposed
[1:05:01] in this LCP and the HPP.
So in the 1997
[1:05:08] plan, the the population was year- round
population was set the target was
[1:05:14] 15,000.
>> So that's that's where that is in here.
[1:05:20] » It says set it. It doesn't set it in the
LCP. It puts it as an action step.
[1:05:29] So, what do we want to do?
>> I think that in the text we should
[1:05:32] somehow acknowledge that it was set at
15,000
[1:05:37] yearround residents
um in the 1998 plan.
[1:05:43] » Okay. How do you want to do that?
[1:05:47] » Well, we can reference it here or we can
put it in the text.
[1:05:51] » Can you
>> Oh, the text of the the text of the
[1:05:53] chapter.
>> Yeah.
[1:05:55] » Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's move on to
the chapter.
[1:05:56] » Or you could just balloon it. You put a
blue box outside of that one.
[1:06:00] » Can we put a balloon?
>> I don't think in the goal section. It
[1:06:03] would be the only one. It would be weird
in the in the chapter. Yes. But not in
[1:06:08] the goal section. It would just disrupt
the format. It would disrupt the
[1:06:11] formatting of the whole
>> We're on 51 now. If you're doing the
[1:06:14] chapter, right?
>> Yes, sir. So, I just took out that whole
[1:06:18] first introductory paragraph. I thought
I was super fluous and candidly a tad
[1:06:23] too uh just theoretical and I jumped
right into what in my professional
[1:06:29] opinion a land use chapter is about. Um
and it just says now for an
[1:06:36] introduction.
The land use chapter is a guide for
[1:06:40] thoughtful municipal decision-making on
how to best manage land in MASHBY. It
[1:06:44] includes everything from conserving open
space to managing real estate
[1:06:48] development. This chapter discusses the
existing conditions in town including
[1:06:53] the current uses of land and the
regulatory framework.
[1:06:57] It also identifies challenges and
opportunities associated with land use.
[1:07:02] Just thought we should keep it simple
and uh that tightens things up and makes
[1:07:07] it a little cleaner and a little
crisper.
[1:07:10] Appreciate the thumbs up, Mike. Oh, and
then we have um Okay. Do we have um
[1:07:20] do we have a chart of um
[1:07:28] of population growth?
[1:07:33] See, we have this nice chart class of
land use.
[1:07:37] You know, it goes on page 51.
[1:07:43] There we are.
>> Right. I'm wondering if we can squeeze
[1:07:45] in there
that there's a famous, you know, the
[1:07:50] census numbers
and then there's a ch there's a graph
[1:07:55] that shows how mashp population just
and that's where we can we can put that
[1:08:02] that 1998 or 1997 sorry LC8
>> 98 thank you LCP set the um target
[1:08:11] population for the town at 15,000 year
around.
[1:08:15] » Yeah, we can put it as an asterk at the
bottom of the chart. How does that
[1:08:18] sound?
>> I think a blue box.
[1:08:19] » Hold up.
>> Yeah.
[1:08:21] » So that' be right under 99.
>> I right after the end of table 5.1. It's
[1:08:29] land use change over time. And I think
it's interesting to put the population
[1:08:33] change over time. And I think that's
from our HPP. I think it's in the HPP.
[1:08:39] And there might even be a little
narrative associated with that that we
[1:08:43] can just grab from the HPP, throw it in
there, and then add, you know, Rob
[1:08:48] wanted a blue box about
how we set the target population in 1998
[1:08:54] is 15,000 and just I think that's good
history.
[1:08:58] » I think it works. All right, I've added
that to my notes.
[1:09:03] Um oops, pardon me.
So on 52 minor, very minor changes. 53
[1:09:11] no changes other than again the date at
the top which is consistent throughout
[1:09:14] the document. Same with 54. Same with
55. Same with 56. 57 is where I'm
[1:09:23] inserting the recently suggested changes
by Madame Chair and uh member Rob
[1:09:29] Hansen. Uh other than that, no changes
to 57. very minor adjustment to 58. At
[1:09:36] the end of the first paragraph, I just
added the phrase, typically they provide
[1:09:40] either more flexibility or greater
restrictions relative to the use and
[1:09:44] dimensional provisions of the underlying
zoning. That sentence is intended to
[1:09:48] clarify what overlay districts do in
general.
[1:09:51] » Thank you. Um, in the description of the
poppiness overlay district, I also added
[1:09:58] it also allows for smaller setback
requirements and limits structure height
[1:10:03] to 30 ft. It's just a couple of details
that I think are important uh regarding
[1:10:07] the poppiness overlay district. It it
it's not just smaller lots, it's also
[1:10:11] smaller setbacks and reduced height.
uh 59.
[1:10:18] Um
very little changes other than uh I uh
[1:10:24] added the following sentence to the
light industrial overlay district. Uh it
[1:10:29] combines the use provisions of the
commercial three and industrial one
[1:10:33] zones together with light industrial
uses as defined in the zoning bylaws. Uh
[1:10:39] just so I think it's nice to have a
clarity of what the actual use changes
[1:10:43] are that the light industrial overlay
district accomplishes.
[1:10:47] Um so put that in there for a concise
statement to do that.
[1:10:53] 510. A little bit more substantive
changes here uh because of the updates
[1:10:58] to our formerly accessory apartment uh
unit bylaw now called our accessory
[1:11:05] dwelling unit or excuse me our formerly
accessory apartments bylaw now called
[1:11:08] our accessory dwelling units bylaw. So
as you all recall uh it was uh
[1:11:15] approximately a year ago. So, the last
Springtown meeting, we passed a bylaw
[1:11:21] that brought our accessory apartment uh
bylaw into conformance with the
[1:11:26] affordable homes homes act provisions,
the recently passed state law, the
[1:11:32] affordable homes act uh provisions
relating to accessory dwelling units.
[1:11:36] So, this paragraph was significantly
rewarded to walk the reader through that
[1:11:41] process. Uh passed a town meeting. It
allows things like ADUs as of right um
[1:11:48] in single family uh neighborhoods and
has various other provisions associated
[1:11:54] with it. So that's that's the genesis of
those red lines. Uh
[1:12:00] I'm not sure why, but uh this section
was origing that was originally labeled
[1:12:05] the setbacks bylaws, but it really talks
about the wetlands bylaws. So, I changed
[1:12:11] the title of that and then I changed the
first and the last sentence. Uh, the
[1:12:15] first sentence is the town of Mashby has
local regulations for wetlands in both
[1:12:19] its general bylaws and it zoning bylaws.
Then the majority of the text in that
[1:12:25] paragraph was left the same because it
discusses both the general and the
[1:12:29] zoning bylaws uh as they pertain to
wetlands. And then I added the sentence
[1:12:34] pending litigation
may have implications for these
[1:12:38] provisions of the zoning bylaws or other
related provisions like section 174-31
[1:12:44] which excludes from lot coverage
calculation any wetlands as defined by
[1:12:49] MGL chapter 131 section 40
five
[1:12:56] » oh Karen has her hand raised
>> hi Karen go ahead
[1:12:59] » uh wetlands I've kind of forgotten the
section of that but um wetlands in
[1:13:06] there's a definition I think it's in the
general laws wetlands are flood planes
[1:13:11] so I think you should define what what
wetlands
[1:13:16] constitute
>> so it's
[1:13:18] » I I don't have don't have that in front
of me so I can't I can't tell you but
[1:13:23] » so it is
>> all wetlands are flood planes
[1:13:26] » yeah so it is defined in the code and
you're 100% right Karen that um our code
[1:13:32] does point to flood plains as a part of
the definition of the wetlands because
[1:13:37] it references state statute. That's 100%
correct. I feel that the code is uh you
[1:13:43] know unpacks that definition in detail
and I think it may be just a tad uh
[1:13:48] verbio and a little less uh reader
friendly if we actually took that whole
[1:13:53] definition from the co code and stuck it
in here. Um the intentions of my last
[1:13:58] sentence there are to also reference
that because that's that's the same
[1:14:02] provision of the code that provision.
Yeah. So
[1:14:08] » I have um three questions for you.
>> Sure.
[1:14:12] » So in our housing production plan, I
think one of our zoning actions was to
[1:14:16] look at cluster subdivision that would
allow multif family housing
[1:14:22] » perhaps.
>> Yeah. So maybe we can double check that
[1:14:24] because if that it's in the HPP under
zoning, we should probably add it in
[1:14:28] here. So we allow cluster subdivisions
for single family detached units, but
[1:14:34] since we're trying to um offer different
types of housing, not just the single
[1:14:41] family home, we were thinking that we
could look at the cluster subdivision
[1:14:45] bylaw and allow for multif family, which
it used to allow, right?
[1:14:50] » And I think it was a growth management
technique was to withdraw that from take
[1:14:55] that out of the zoning, but now it might
be good to put in. You might even get
[1:15:01] more open space out of it because you're
taking all the units and making them
[1:15:05] even closer together.
>> Yeah.
[1:15:07] » Um so yeah, it was cluster subdivisions
that would allow multif family housing.
[1:15:13] » Um
in here, do you have it referenced that
[1:15:17] you're working on the raise and replace
bylaw?
[1:15:20] Um, I thought it was referenced.
>> Yeah, you do.
[1:15:24] » Okay.
>> I don't
[1:15:27] know where it is.
>> The other Good. And then the other the
[1:15:31] last one was,
>> "Hey, Karen, how are your ears?"
[1:15:35] [laughter]
>> You're blowing ours away. Um,
[1:15:39] » I know. I'll try to whisper.
>> Thank you. And then the other thing was
[1:15:43] and and forgive me for bringing it up
like and not giving you a heads up
[1:15:48] before I thought that the town had to
zone for shortterm rentals.
[1:15:55] I thought towns had to
put them in the zoning bylaw as an
[1:15:59] allowed use.
>> My understanding of the current Oh, no.
[1:16:03] No. It's not mandatory to my knowledge.
It's not mandatory to my knowledge. My
[1:16:08] understanding is the current status of
the law is if you do not have a
[1:16:13] prohibition on short-term rentals and do
have rental provisions in your code,
[1:16:20] then the rental provisions in your code
apply to short-term rentals.
[1:16:24] » So, we don't have to do anything
as far as I know. Okay.
[1:16:29] » So,
>> all right, then. Strike that. Thank you
[1:16:31] for that update.
>> Any other zoning that we're working on?
[1:16:35] Go ahead, Rob. Oh, well, not zoning, but
>> Go ahead.
[1:16:38] » My one of my comments I sent to you,
>> you didn't incorporate it.
[1:16:43] » Yeah, I didn't incorporate any of your
comments, Rob. You weren't supposed to
[1:16:45] be commented on chapter 5. You're
supposed to bring your comments to this
[1:16:48] meeting.
>> I did. I have.
[1:16:49] » So, raise them. [laughter]
>> So, what do you got, Rob?
[1:16:52] » Okay. Wait,
>> Mike. I can't hear you.
[1:16:54] » Okay.
>> Okay. I found a couple of minor things
[1:17:01] uh when I took a review of this. Um
table 53
[1:17:08] uh one of the columns uh talks minimum
lot frontage
[1:17:13] in in the page
>> what page are you on
[1:17:16] » 5.7
57 page
[1:17:19] » okay
>> so minimum frontage is identified as
[1:17:23] square feet should be linear feet
[1:17:29] » um yeah that and that is a great uh
point out and actually I thought I did
[1:17:34] put that one in there. So, I I retract
my prior statement. [laughter]
[1:17:38] » No, that is that you should specify that
that's linear feet. And I thought I did
[1:17:41] actually make that change. That's so
weird.
[1:17:43] » Yeah, I that was a great catch. Yep.
>> Okay. Uh then uh we we talked about uh
[1:17:50] my comment three and we were going to I
was going to ask for a small town in
[1:17:56] paragraph 5.31
>> and you what page you're on, sir? Oh,
[1:18:01] uh, I'm reading my comments. Um,
>> 5.31.
[1:18:07] » It It's 531.
>> This is be on page 5-12 for folks
[1:18:13] » going from the packets.
>> Yep.
[1:18:17] » And
>> what what did you want?
[1:18:19] » I was going to add the uh word small
town. Uh, please add the word small town
[1:18:25] after uh striking out the last line of
paragraph one.
[1:18:31] » Um, so is that my paragraph one or the
old paragraph one?
[1:18:36] » Cuz because the the paragraph one I
completely rewrote the paragraph one in
[1:18:40] that. So
>> 5.3.1 has an entirely new paragraph
[1:18:46] first paragraph.
>> And
[1:18:49] that that's fine. That's fine. I see I
think what happened is I had made my
[1:18:53] changes and then you sent your changes.
I thought I had incorporated the ones
[1:18:56] that uh
>> Well, it says in promoting its striking
[1:18:59] character.
>> Oh yeah, that's where you wanted small
[1:19:02] town.
>> Yeah,
[1:19:04] » right here.
>> So you wanted striking small town
[1:19:08] character.
>> Well,
[1:19:13] yeah.
>> No, adding the word small town.
[1:19:14] » So I think instead of striking
character, small town,
[1:19:18] » right?
>> Okay, good.
[1:19:19] » You wait. Do you want to strike
striking?
[1:19:21] » Mhm.
>> I don't want to strike striking.
[1:19:23] » Striking small town character.
>> Okay. I We can combine both.
[1:19:28] » Thank you.
>> As long as we're not striking striking.
[1:19:30] » Okay. I will leave striking in for you
about nothing. Move on, please.
[1:19:33] » Who's on first? [laughter]
>> Okay.
[1:19:36] » All right. What's next, Rob?
>> Okay. Paragraph 54
[1:19:41] 2, which is
>> What are we doing now?
[1:19:45] » Page 12-3. 13 and 542.
>> Yep.
[1:19:51] » And which number [snorts]
>> look I guess uh let's see.
[1:19:57] Okay. Uh under policies police number
nine.
[1:20:03] No. Uh
>> under policies or under goals? Policies
[1:20:08] is 5.4.2. Goals is 5.4.1.
>> Okay.
[1:20:14] 5.
Under policies. Okay.
[1:20:18] » And and you said number nine.
>> Yes.
[1:20:20] » Okay. So that's on 5-14, everybody.
>> Okay. 514. Right.
[1:20:25] » And I just wanted Let's see.
>> Get rid of that.
[1:20:31] » I wanted to uh It says uh please add the
word and or civil after
[1:20:39] dot dot dot or
uh proposed military operations
[1:20:45] on Mashby. So proposed military and/or
civil operations.
[1:20:48] » Yes.
>> Okay. You got it, sir.
[1:20:52] » And and my clarification was uh comment
four uh has to do with recent proposal
[1:20:59] to relocate Hyannis Civil and commercial
airport to Joint Base Cape Cod.
[1:21:04] » Oh, that's that was a great suggestion,
man. I So
[1:21:07] » where is
>> I know I added that. That's a really
[1:21:09] good point. And I know I added that,
Rob.
[1:21:11] » Yeah.
>> Okay. And so you want we should add that
[1:21:14] to nine, right?
>> Uh
[1:21:17] » you want to Yes. We should be direct and
say okay. So give me that sentence again
[1:21:21] please sir.
>> Okay. Uh please add the word and or
[1:21:26] civil.
>> Oh, I got that. The other one about the
[1:21:28] airport
>> after
[1:21:31] and the or
uh proposed military operations on
[1:21:37] Mashby.
>> Yeah.
[1:21:40] » On Mashby. Just tell me the sentence
about the airport. Just reread the
[1:21:44] sentence about the airport, please, sir.
>> Oh. Oh, the sentence about the airport.
[1:21:48] Okay. Says, uh, uh, comment four has to
do with recent proposals to relocate the
[1:21:56] Hyana Civil/Commercial
Airport to Joint Base Cape Cod, JBCC.
[1:22:05] » Okay. So, I will just say take
a careful
[1:22:11] look at recent proposals to relocate the
civil
[1:22:18] hyenasis
airport
[1:22:23] to JBCC
if the issue
[1:22:29] presents because I think it's dead now,
isn't it?
[1:22:32] » Yeah, I think and I think we should use
engage.
[1:22:35] » Yeah. So
>> again, engage where?
[1:22:39] » In the very beginning.
>> Yeah. So
[1:22:41] » and engage in, you know what I mean?
Like we want to engage in those
[1:22:45] conversations. Oh,
>> okay.
[1:22:47] » You know. Yeah. Good. Good catch. Yeah.
So that was all, you know, that whole
[1:22:51] discussion about the PAS pollution.
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[1:22:54] » Right.
>> Yeah.
[1:22:55] » And the bur and the and the
environmental and other burdens on that
[1:23:00] area.
So, it was I I've been to some of those
[1:23:03] meetings and they're like meeting,
>> oh, we'll just put it in MASH PE and I'm
[1:23:08] like, that's the end of my street, guys.
[laughter]
[1:23:11] » Very, very thoughtful comments and
especially just even
[1:23:15] » not that it's our concern, but the
tactical concerns about having a civil
[1:23:19] civilian airport on a military
[laughter] base
[1:23:23] poses some unique challenges. Let's put
it that way. So,
[1:23:27] » excellent com uh didn't
Did I think,
[1:23:34] correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it might
be almost 15 years ago, there was land
[1:23:40] on the base
that was
[1:23:44] designated as surplus land.
Remember the tribe
[1:23:50] » put in a letter of interest
>> for that land.
[1:23:53] » Oh, amazing.
>> I heard about it. I heard about this.
[1:23:56] » There's something very right. So I think
the when the federal land is surplus
[1:24:01] land
um indigenous tribes recognized tribes
[1:24:08] if I understand this right and I could
be completely wrong
[1:24:10] » no they did
>> have precedents
[1:24:13] » it it it's first dibs
>> but what they did is they set up
[1:24:17] training for um
>> they did something okay
[1:24:22] » to keep the base viable like
>> it's it and you did some work in
[1:24:27] Falmouth too. Brian, you might have
heard about this kind of stuff, but any
[1:24:31] type anytime that land becomes like
surplus land, there's like a pecking
[1:24:36] order. But I remember it was in the
newspaper that the tribe put in an
[1:24:40] official letter saying, "We're
interested in it."
[1:24:46] » Okay.
>> All right.
[1:24:47] » Got it.
>> Bringing back memories.
[1:24:50] » I think it was in the Mashp Enterprise.
>> That was That's a really good chapter.
[1:24:55] » Great job. Thank you.
>> You're quite welcome. I'm not sure if
[1:24:59] you want me to, you know, button things
up because the only other page with
[1:25:02] substantive changes is 512. If you want
me to walk you all through that or if
[1:25:06] you feel it's sufficient coverage for
now.
[1:25:09] » I'm good.
>> Sufficient coverage for now.
[1:25:11] » And as long as those charts, the goals,
the policies, and the actions match
[1:25:17] the list of goals, policies, and actions
at the end of every chapter.
[1:25:22] » Sure.
>> Do you know what I mean? Like you have
[1:25:23] to change them in both places. Yep.
Right.
[1:25:28] » Right. So, we're going to add
um after that nice summary of by year of
[1:25:36] how zoning or land use changed in
Mashbury, we're going to add in there
[1:25:41] how the population changed. It's
staggering. It's staggering.
[1:25:46] And then that little blue box or some
type of info box about how in 1998
[1:25:52] the town set the population target at
15,000.
[1:25:56] » We should also target the summer
population. Yes,
[1:25:59] » that goes up to 40,000.
>> We we may even be able to do it as a
[1:26:03] double line graph, you know, summer
population estimates over
[1:26:07] » year round estimates. And then you could
even put another line marking where we
[1:26:12] hit 15,000,
>> right? And it's very And that was 200.
[1:26:18] That was 2020. That was the 2020 census.
>> Oh, really? Yeah.
[1:26:22] » And And
what I'd love is the year that we would
[1:26:27] declared a nitrogen sensitive area.
>> It's like right there.
[1:26:33] It's like the population hit that target
goal and boom, I think within three
[1:26:38] years we were declared a nitrogen
sensitive area.
[1:26:42] » Yeah. So that's
>> so you talk people talk about all the
[1:26:45] time how do we know when we hit our
environmental capacity? Well that's how
[1:26:50] you know.
[1:26:53] » So I have something here. So the next
thing on the local comprehensive plan is
[1:26:58] chapter 8. This is uh pretty much all of
Rob's changes. Um
[1:27:03] » all what?
>> Rob's changes. Rob and I had not yet sat
[1:27:07] down to huddle up. in part I I have the
capital facilities plan that I want to
[1:27:13] add to this. Um or I should say I have a
draft of the capital facilities plan
[1:27:17] that I want to add to this. Uh the
genesis of which came primarily from as
[1:27:22] I had mentioned in a prior board meeting
uh conversations with uh Rodney Collins
[1:27:28] the town manager as well as Wayne Taylor
the assistant town manager. And so um
[1:27:34] you know we kind of went over thing
everything building by building. I did
[1:27:38] want to also loop in uh Katherine
Laurent, the DPW director with all the
[1:27:44] snow storms, etc., etc., she's obviously
had [clears throat] her hands full. So,
[1:27:48] we are just kind of waiting. Um, this
isn't it's not a final capital
[1:27:52] facilities plan, but it didn't go in
your packet. So, I wanted the board to
[1:27:56] decide whether or not to take a look at
this draft or to wait until Katherine
[1:28:00] had the opportunity to opine on it.
>> Bobby, wait. I mean, is there
[1:28:05] » I don't have any comments. No,
>> changes to this right now. What we got?
[1:28:10] » Well, what I'm referring to, not chapter
8 per se. I'm referring to the capital
[1:28:14] facilities plan that I haven't yet added
to it.
[1:28:16] » Right.
>> Wait for Catherine's comments.
[1:28:20] » The only
>> I like that. I like that, Dale.
[1:28:22] » Agreed.
>> And then um
[1:28:26] » Dale says with the eyes of a young
father, [laughter]
[1:28:30] » can I please go home and put my kids to
bed,
[1:28:33] » please? So, um the the only thing I've
ever really picked up on on facilities
[1:28:40] is um
the library is is during storm events
[1:28:48] or heat waves. The library is often used
as a de facto shelter.
[1:28:55] Um but they don't have a generator.
Um, so we might want to see if that's in
[1:29:03] the capital plan. I think that the
library director has talked about it.
[1:29:08] » When when was the last time it was used?
>> Um,
[1:29:12] maybe I don't know. I'd have to ask her.
>> Well, li the library is discussed in the
[1:29:16] capital plan. Let me see what it says.
And we can
[1:29:19] » the library
>> cross reference any comments with Kath's
[1:29:22] comment as well. But let me see.
>> Cuz there were parts of town that was
[1:29:27] out and it it could be it's within the
last decade cuz I remember we went my
[1:29:35] daughter and I went to the library.
No, she was in college. So it's the last
[1:29:41] it's within seven years. So we went to
the library because parts of town were
[1:29:46] out for power
and everybody was at the library.
[1:29:51] Everybody. It was like mobbed and
luckily they had power. But I saw the
[1:29:57] library director and I was like, "Oh,
thank you for being here and keeping
[1:30:01] this open for us." And she said, "Well,
we're lucky. We didn't lose power. This
[1:30:06] is a great spot for a generator."
>> Oh, so you're saying consider adding a
[1:30:11] generator?
>> Have making sure the library has a
[1:30:14] generator. So during storm events is a
public place for people to go get warm,
[1:30:21] try to get on the internet, read a book.
The
[1:30:26] » library is the only shelter.
>> No, we went to the school with Hurricane
[1:30:30] Bob.
>> Yeah, that's what a lot of a lot of
[1:30:32] towns do schools because there's just
more space.
[1:30:34] » Yeah.
>> But it's I'll tell you a lot of people
[1:30:39] will go to a library that's open and
heated before they'll go to
[1:30:43] » I added the common. Thank you. Then
they'll go to a a a an auditorium.
[1:30:48] » The official the official official
shelter
[1:30:50] » for the library that were already there
were adequate condition constructed in
[1:30:55] 2010. So no no funds are necessary.
Where do you think we would get funds
[1:30:59] for the generator for that though?
>> Uh general fund
[1:31:02] the capital plan
>> RCA develop.
[1:31:04] » How about CPC? That's community, right?
It's uh I'm not I'm not
[1:31:10] I'm not sure that that facility is
covered by um a recreational
[1:31:18] building might be.
>> Okay.
[1:31:21] » But not a library. Excuse me.
>> There's an RCA store just down the
[1:31:26] street. Maybe they can work out a deal.
[laughter]
[1:31:30] I mean, they do a lot of business in
this town. It's only
[1:31:34] » Well, I remember when when we had a
blizzard, remember Panera was the only
[1:31:38] place that was open and everybody in
town was there
[1:31:43] and the general manager kept coming in
and going, "Okay, everybody, we love you
[1:31:47] very much, but you can only sit at the
seat for two hours and then you have to
[1:31:50] go and let somebody else have a seat."
It was like everybody's rotating in and
[1:31:53] out.
>> So, I think the uh the short of it is
[1:31:58] then that the board is comfortable with
the current changes to chapter 8. I may
[1:32:02] give it a once over as I discussed after
I get feedback from Katherine on the
[1:32:08] capital facilities plan and then I'm
going to just insert it into that
[1:32:11] section in an appropriate place.
>> Um
[1:32:14] » I think so.
>> Yep. Great. So eight's down. So Dale, we
[1:32:21] just need seven from you and
>> seven and then um
[1:32:26] » did we ever get anything from the
historical commission?
[1:32:29] » My comments.
>> What's that? We never sat through my
[1:32:32] comments,
>> but Well, I think everybody's saying
[1:32:34] they looked at them and they were good
with them.
[1:32:35] » Do you want to go bring us through them,
Rob?
[1:32:38] » Dale doesn't want you to, but [laughter]
>> Well, well, wait a minute.
[1:32:42] » No, no. Last time I got criticized for
letting us go after 10.
[1:32:47] » It was a joke. It was a joke.
>> My apologies. I thought before they went
[1:32:52] out to the board, you and I would sit
back.
[1:32:54] » We can do that. We can do that. we can.
So, I think what we can do,
[1:32:58] » how about how about once we get
>> Okay.
[1:33:01] » the capital plan comments in here,
>> we authorize Rob and Brian to finalize
[1:33:09] chapter 8.
>> All right.
[1:33:11] » Okay.
>> So, Catherine, after you get Katherine
[1:33:14] Lance's work in there, then you and Rob
finalize it. How's that, everybody?
[1:33:20] » Sounds good. And we'll we'll hopefully
time that with Dale's as well. And we'll
[1:33:24] just crank out seven or eight and then
we'll be done. And
[1:33:26] » so Dale, what you're doing
sustainability
[1:33:29] » chapter seven? Yeah.
>> It's open space and wreck, I thought,
[1:33:32] isn't it? Or no,
>> sorry. So, which chapter is that? That's
[1:33:36] not seven then. My apologies.
>> Okay.
[1:33:38] » We already do sustainability.
>> We already did seven. We already did
[1:33:41] seven.
>> And then we have heritage and cultural
[1:33:44] resources.
>> That's you too, right? No, it I sent it
[1:33:48] to the historical commission.
>> Oh, so we have to follow up with them.
[1:33:54] » Ava emailed me that she had comments, so
I will follow up with them.
[1:33:59] » Okay.
>> Can I get CCed on those if I'm not
[1:34:02] already?
>> Yeah.
[1:34:02] » Okay.
>> Thank you.
[1:34:03] » Awesome.
>> I think I think they switched over to my
[1:34:06] Hotmail account. Sorry about that. All
right. Um
[1:34:13] Karen, anything else on the LCP? Jason,
>> I think it's very good.
[1:34:21] » Great.
Did we delete that language about in the
[1:34:26] neighborhood? I think I the dog started
barking when I
[1:34:31] » We did
>> heard that. Okay. About the
[1:34:34] neighborhood, you know, neighborhood
store kind of thing you were talking
[1:34:38] about.
>> Yes.
[1:34:39] » We showed in two places.
>> Oh, where was the second place? We only
[1:34:42] deleted it now. Oh gosh, I don't know
now.
[1:34:45] » Is that in the list at the end of the
chapter?
[1:34:50] » Yes.
>> Yeah. So, right. So, the the goals,
[1:34:53] policies, and actions are listed in two
places. In the chart and then as a list
[1:34:57] at the end of the chapter. So, whoever
we have proof it all, you know, at the
[1:35:03] end. We have to make sure that the
changes we've made to the chart make it
[1:35:07] to the lists at the end of every
chapter. So, that will be done.
[1:35:13] Thanks, Karen.
All right. New business, proposed zoning
[1:35:18] bylaw amendment, article five,
non-conforming building and uses red
[1:35:23] lines. Do you want to take us through
that, Brian?
[1:35:26] » Sure. Just a moment, Madam Chair. I want
to make that change that Karen suggested
[1:35:32] and then I want to turn to that portion
of our packet.
[1:35:38] For some reason, I thought we were
covering the annual report before that.
[1:35:42] Um,
that was next up in the packet.
[1:35:49] Okay.
[1:35:53] So, okay, let me just
>> Yeah. So, the short of it is this. As
[1:35:59] you all know, we created what's now
called PENS, right? It stands for pre a
[1:36:04] pens working group, which stands for
pre-existing non-conforming structures.
[1:36:10] » So, say that again. pre-existing.
>> That was no reflection of Karen's
[1:36:14] thoughts on pens. That was I think her
reacting to her cat. [laughter]
[1:36:18] » So it's pre-existing noncon.
[1:36:23] [laughter]
[1:36:26] » Um so PEN stands for pre-existing
non-conforming structures. This was
[1:36:30] formerly the poppiness raise and
replace. The raise and replace is only
[1:36:34] one portion of that bylaw which is
article 5. The primary theme that we're
[1:36:39] addressing is structures and/or
non-conforming lots. Um, we formulated a
[1:36:46] working group to discuss this issue. Uh,
during the course of the working group,
[1:36:51] I realized that you could really
categorize the changes that we were
[1:36:56] looking to make into two overarching
categories. The first overarching
[1:37:00] category is changes to the bylaw to make
it compliant with current state law and
[1:37:06] to more clearly reflect how it's
actually being applied now, which is
[1:37:12] compliant with current state law. The
second category of changes is criteria
[1:37:18] for the ZBA to go by when they're either
issuing a special permit or a section
[1:37:24] six finding on pre-existing
non-conforming structures.
[1:37:30] Um that second category is going to
require more expansive public input. And
[1:37:36] so what I recommended to the working
group and the working group unanimously
[1:37:40] agreed is we would bifurcate the
process. We would first make all the
[1:37:45] changes that needed to be made in order
to make the Karen can you put us on mute
[1:37:50] please?
[1:37:53] » I'm sorry. Just excuse me, Rose. Can you
come here, please? I You know, I'm not
[1:38:01] that skilled in this thing. I'm looking
to put
[1:38:04] » So, you can just mute yourself by
clicking audio and and killing the
[1:38:08] audio.
>> I'm looking for audio.
[1:38:12] » Lower lower left hand corner.
[1:38:18] » Oh, okay.
So um the working group agreed that we
[1:38:24] should go ahead and move forward with
the changes that are basically
[1:38:28] departmental changes in technical in
nature and therefore do not require
[1:38:32] expansive public input or discussion
among the working group but are
[1:38:36] nevertheless fairly uh comprehensive.
Um and so that's what we're bringing
[1:38:41] forward for this spring town meeting and
that's what's in front of the board.
[1:38:45] Now, the plan of the working group is
after this ideally passes at Springtown
[1:38:50] meeting, we then know what we're working
from, which is current with state law.
[1:38:55] So, we're then building off of that to
do something that's MASHP specific in
[1:38:59] setting those criteria for either a
special permit or a section six finding
[1:39:04] under article 5, uh, which addresses
pre-existing non-conforming structures
[1:39:09] and lots. So, that's the context. I'm
happy to walk you all through the red
[1:39:13] lines, but I think in the interest of
time, it may be best just to answer any
[1:39:17] questions the board may have about these
red lines, but they're based on the
[1:39:22] Bjorkland case as well as a series of
other cases that followed from the
[1:39:25] Bjorkland case, uh, which was a Supreme
Judicial Court case and, uh, they also
[1:39:31] involve a land court case, um, which
slightly modified Bjorkland.
[1:39:39] » So, I do have one edit. Yeah.
>> Um,
[1:39:44] in section 17.1A,
I think the first sentence
[1:39:50] shall be torn down, not to down. There's
a typo.
[1:39:57] » Oh,
>> it must have been some type of optical
[1:40:00] reader.
>> Yeah.
[1:40:03] » Um,
>> you sure it says torn?
[1:40:06] » That may actually in mine it says torn,
but maybe it's just my eyes. But I'll
[1:40:11] I'll make a note of it.
>> I see it as Tom.
[1:40:13] » It does say Tom.
>> Well, it definitely shouldn't say Tom
[1:40:15] down. So, I I made a note of it.
>> And it's just like the one you caught on
[1:40:20] 17418 on the next page.
>> You caught that. It was con fawning and
[1:40:26] it needs to be conforming.
>> Yeah.
[1:40:29] » So, there must have been some optical
reader that converted some version of
[1:40:34] the bylaw.
>> Better. There's two really embarrassing
[1:40:36] typos [laughter] in our zoning code.
>> That's really bad. Tom down.
[1:40:40] » Yeah, don't tom down any structures.
>> But otherwise, I mean, I see these
[1:40:45] changes as not changing this bylaw, just
clarifying it.
[1:40:50] » It's clarifying it because the way the
bylaw reads now, like it
[1:40:57] it's being applied in a slightly
different manner and the way it's being
[1:41:00] applied is compliant with state law.
Does that make sense? So, it's updating
[1:41:04] it to more more accurately reflect both
state law and how it's being applied.
[1:41:10] And that's because how it's being
applied is in compliance state with
[1:41:13] state law. Yeah.
>> And that this working group, this Pence
[1:41:18] working group, they've seen this.
>> Oh, 100%. And we had at least two
[1:41:22] meetings dedicated exclusively to
>> And they're good with it.
[1:41:25] » Yes.
>> Okay.
[1:41:26] » Yep.
>> So, I um I like it. I think we should uh
[1:41:30] vote to send it it submit it as a
proposed amendment to the zoning bylaw
[1:41:35] and we should send it into the board of
selectman for inclusion on the warrant
[1:41:41] and that's due on Monday the 9th. Is
that good?
[1:41:45] » Anybody want to make that motion?
>> I make that motion. So that's be
[1:41:49] » Is there a second?
>> Second.
[1:41:51] » Is that motion acceptable, Brian?
>> Absolutely.
[1:41:54] » Okay. It's going to be roll call vote.
Michael,
[1:41:56] » yes.
>> Dennis,
[1:41:57] » yes. Dale Karen,
>> she's muted.
[1:42:02] » Just thumbs up.
>> She waved
[1:42:06] » for the record.
>> Yeah, she's a yes and I'm a yes. Rob,
[1:42:10] how do you feel about it all?
>> I do.
[1:42:12] » Okay. He supports it as well. Okay.
>> Looking at this gives me a nostalgic
[1:42:18] feel. When I when I first started, we
were they were talking about this
[1:42:22] [laughter]
was even being said.
[1:42:25] It's really e excellent work. Thank you
very much.
[1:42:28] » Thank you. I appreciate that. Very nice.
>> Thank you.
[1:42:31] » Okay. Uh I drafted up an annual report.
Don't know if you guys have any
[1:42:36] comments.
[1:42:40] » My only comment is it looks great.
>> Thank you.
[1:42:44] » So you do you want to take a you want to
take a vote
[1:42:48] » to to send in that annual report? I I I
make a motion we accept this accept the
[1:42:53] stand and report as
>> and send it into the
[1:42:56] » Yep. Is there a second?
>> Um I before you do that Yeah. I just
[1:43:01] » uh one little clarification. You have my
name who reports to on the activities of
[1:43:07] the Cape Guide Commission. Now it's Dale
since he's on the commission.
[1:43:12] » Um well this was last year. [laughter]
>> Okay.
[1:43:14] » I'll just keep you there.
[1:43:18] There's a place there.
>> Yeah.
[1:43:21] » Where was that spot? Wait, give me a
second. Oh, correct. Correct. Pickle
[1:43:26] Island.
>> Okay.
[1:43:31] » Oh, yeah. That's actually in the center
of the first paragraph. Instead of
[1:43:34] pickle island, it should say Island
Pickle. So, we can make that change.
[1:43:38] » Island Pickle. All right. Thank you.
[snorts]
[1:43:46] Great catch, Karen, as usual.
[1:43:51] » Pickle Island. Oh my god, [laughter]
that is what I could find.
[1:43:54] » That actually is kind of a cool name,
too, though, you know. [laughter]
[1:43:59] » All right. Uh, with that uh edit, I'll
take roll call vote. Michael,
[1:44:05] » yes.
>> Dennis,
[1:44:06] » yes.
>> Dale,
[1:44:07] » yes.
>> Karen,
[1:44:08] » yes.
>> Mary's a yes. And Rob, how do you feel
[1:44:11] about it?
>> Yes.
[1:44:11] » Good, too. All right. All right. I'll
submit that.
[1:44:16] Okay. And then town plan or report.
>> Um I am not going to report on anything
[1:44:24] this evening.
>> H
[1:44:25] » I'm not going to report on anything this
evening.
[1:44:27] » So there's something in here we need to
sign.
[1:44:29] » Oh yes. Sorry. I do need to report on
something this evening.
[1:44:33] I'm I'm uh
>> the annual anti-discrimination and
[1:44:37] anti-harassment policy. Uh, and then I
did want to briefly chat about the
[1:44:41] affordable housing speaker series.
>> All right. So, we received it in our
[1:44:44] packet. There's a form we need to sign.
>> I want to have everybody's signature on
[1:44:48] one form, so I'm going to pass it
around.
[1:44:51] » Okay.
>> Uh, actually, there are two separate
[1:44:55] forms.
um one that you're going to print your
[1:44:59] name on and sign and then the other
is uh list of signatures. So, let's just
[1:45:10] do them both.
>> While that's passing around, I do want
[1:45:13] to go back to um chair's report.
>> I got an email from somebody that works
[1:45:22] for GHD
[1:45:25] translation. GHD
>> GHD is an engineering firm and the town
[1:45:31] has hired them to do a lot of our
wastewater planning and engineering. And
[1:45:38] so I didn't know what it was at first.
It's a pre-notice
[1:45:44] of a of the of the town's official
notice of project change for the
[1:45:50] wastewater nitrogen management plan.
and it's due out that notice of public
[1:45:58] change like that public notice
>> is going to be published
[1:46:03] February 11th
in the environmental reporter that mass
[1:46:08] DP
um has they have a website I don't did
[1:46:15] you receive their email
>> I'm sorry I was distracted okay GHD
[1:46:20] email about what
>> GHD
[1:46:24] on behalf of the town is submitting to
Mass D
[1:46:30] a notice of project change
to our
[1:46:35] » ENF or ENIF, whatever. That's our
nitrogen management plan.
[1:46:40] » You want to say
>> you don't. Okay. So, it took me a while
[1:46:43] to figure out what this was and the
links they had were like to Google Docs.
[1:46:47] I could never get in. But um it's this
legal notice is going to get posted on
[1:46:53] the mass D website on February 11th and
it's it's for the um
[1:47:00] » No, it's for for it's for the satellite
wastewater treatment plant north of
[1:47:04] Mashby Wakeby.
>> Right.
[1:47:06] » So that's coming out on the 11th.
So, it was like a pre-notice
[1:47:13] that went to um because I'm the chair of
the planning board, I was on the
[1:47:18] recipient list. And see, it might have
gone to an old email address for the
[1:47:24] planning department.
>> That may have.
[1:47:26] » So,
it just warns you you're going to get
[1:47:29] it.
>> Yes. It's a pre It's a pre-notice of the
[1:47:33] official notice.
So, and I think it I think it even went
[1:47:38] to like my old email. I think it went to
my Hotmail account and not my um
[1:47:44] » Gmail account.
>> So, I'll get it. I'll send it to Brian
[1:47:48] and you might want to make sure you're
on that list.
[1:47:51] » Yes. And we should also distribute it to
the board.
[1:47:54] » Yes.
>> And then I'm assuming I'm going to get a
[1:47:57] copy of the the um the notice on the
11th. I'm assuming they're going to
[1:48:02] email it since they told me it was
coming.
[1:48:05] Oh,
[1:48:09] it's for you.
[1:48:22] Okay. May I circle back and chat a bit
about um the affordable housing
[1:48:27] committee speaker series while folks are
signing?
[1:48:31] » Yep. Started sign. Yes, Karen.
>> Uh, when is that to be put in when
[1:48:39] resource department? No later than
February 13th.
[1:48:43] » So, how would I get that? Do I need to
sign it?
[1:48:46] » Uh, if you get me an ecopy, I think we
should be good. Is that something you
[1:48:50] could sign on your own and scan up and
email on over to us?
[1:48:54] » Is this I'm only signing one of these,
right?
[1:48:57] » No, please sign both. Oh, yeah. One one
of that
[1:49:00] » and then there's another one coming
along. Yep. I I'll talk to you about
[1:49:04] that.
>> Yeah, let's we'll handle it offline, but
[1:49:06] we'll make it work, Karen. Not to worry.
You don't have to fly back up or drive
[1:49:10] back up rather.
>> There's another one. See?
[1:49:13] » Thank you.
[1:49:16] » Yeah, we'll bring it.
[1:49:21] » Um, so just chatting briefly on the le
let's talk housing speaker. We had two
[1:49:26] fantastic speakers here this week. um
Reinie Hammond, who's the program
[1:49:31] coordinator for Barnesville County Home
Consortium, uh as well as Erin Perry,
[1:49:36] the deputy director uh of the Cape Cod
Commission. Um both did wonderful jobs.
[1:49:43] They brought really thorough and
wellthoughtout uh slides that get into a
[1:49:49] lot of details and are excellent
resources uh for big picture um issues
[1:49:56] uh and resources in affordable housing
uh in Barnesville County, you know,
[1:50:03] basically on Cape Cod. So, uh that if
you weren't able to make it because of
[1:50:09] the cold, I know it was it was very very
cold that evening. Um it the video is
[1:50:14] BashPTV has put the video up on YouTube
and the resources uh should be already
[1:50:20] up on our web page um including both the
slides uh and a link to the video. Um it
[1:50:27] went really well. It was really
informative. The affordable housing
[1:50:30] committee uh asked some very very
thoughtful questions as usual. Um and
[1:50:35] there was some good discussion and
dialogue afterwards. And we're getting
[1:50:39] excited for the upcoming speaker in
March which is uh gonna be Poa and Hack
[1:50:45] and they're going to talk about theair
village project here in Mashby and uh
[1:50:50] Marylair is going to be the guest of
honor. So should be exciting. So that'll
[1:50:54] be the the first um first week in March
coming up next month. So
[1:51:01] » awesome.
[1:51:11] Thank you.
>> Those are the blank.
[1:51:15] » Those are the blank ones.
>> I found the emails,
[1:51:18] » Brian, I'm sending them to you now.
[1:51:23] [clears throat]
[1:51:25] » And then Mary, after the meeting, I just
have a couple things for you to sign as
[1:51:28] chair. Okay.
>> All right. Uh board member committee
[1:51:32] reports Cape Cod Commission.
>> No meeting
[1:51:37] community preservation. Okay. So
um at our last meeting we made we voted
[1:51:44] and made uh two uh recommendations. Uh
the town meeting um one was for the
[1:51:52] historic preservation of the Baptist
church on Route 130 which is in the
[1:51:56] historical district.
>> Right. Yep. Right. And so, um, we're
[1:52:02] provide we rec we're recommending to
town meeting an authorization of
[1:52:06] $100,000 of community preservation money
to, um, do the roof and siding and doors
[1:52:12] of that building, um, to maintain, um,
the building structure, preserve its
[1:52:18] historic value,
um, Brian Hyde, who's uh, the chair of
[1:52:24] the historical district
>> commission or commission. and then also
[1:52:29] a member of the historical commission.
>> Yeah.
[1:52:32] » Really had some spectacular things to
say about
[1:52:37] who it's a simple building, but who has
been members of that congregation and
[1:52:43] how important it was to have that
congregation here in town. Um he said
[1:52:47] that it opened up in the 1930s when
there was a lot of segregation. And so
[1:52:52] it made that congregation uh which
originally met at town hall um and and
[1:52:58] then started to meet in a in a spot that
where a donated building was placed. It
[1:53:03] made safe space for people to meet that
were otherwise segregated uh from uh
[1:53:10] religious worship. Um so that was that
was kind of cool. Um
[1:53:17] then um they also voted
recommended to vote I think it's
[1:53:23] $400,000
for the restoration of the Amos house
[1:53:29] which is on Great Neck Road South.
>> Yep.
[1:53:33] » That's the property that's owned
>> by by Fox.
[1:53:36] » By Fox.
>> Yeah. So um
[1:53:39] » did they get that? It's private though,
>> right? So anyways, there was uh
[1:53:46] basically it there's not a lot of
historic buildings
[1:53:49] » in Mashby. People love that building. Uh
people want it to be preserved.
[1:53:56] » Great.
>> So there was there was a vote to support
[1:54:00] $400,000. The original request was four
times that. It was 1.2 million. Um so we
[1:54:07] started talking about what would be
covered
[1:54:11] by a historic restriction right that's
the exterior work and like you know
[1:54:21] there was some there was some thought
that even the plumbing inside it you
[1:54:24] know protects the exterior but a
historic restriction would not restrict
[1:54:31] the plumbing inside so it was exterior
and then Mr. Fox, you know, cut his
[1:54:37] request in half. So, it was like 50% of
50%. So, anyways, um that I'm sure we'll
[1:54:42] get some spirited conversation at town
meeting.
[1:54:46] » Um so, we'll we'll see what happens.
>> So,
[1:54:49] » yeah, because
>> because he still have his rights to the
[1:54:53] property.
>> It's privately owned.
[1:54:55] » Are you going to rent it out?
>> Um and Right. And he's not he Yes.
[1:55:00] » Can I apply for one of those?
>> Do you have a historic house?
[1:55:05] working on
historical because I work for the
[1:55:09] historical you had to do hush here.
>> Yeah.
[1:55:13] » Insulation. The paint had to be
>> Yep.
[1:55:15] » You know, it it was I don't know how
people really did that because they had
[1:55:20] to pick out the certain paints
>> and make it the same way they did like
[1:55:25] » in Boston. They were like the 1800
paints and stuff. It was like pretty
[1:55:29] extensive. Well, I think if Mike put a
plaque on his house that said the
[1:55:32] Milbury house and then just put 1890 on
it, that would
[1:55:36] » almost pass. Right.
>> Right. They're going to require a plaque
[1:55:40] that it be that it be restored to the
federal standards on historic
[1:55:46] rehabilitation.
>> In all seriousness, that is a really
[1:55:48] cool and note and noteworthy history.
You know, I do think it raises the
[1:55:53] question about private ownership and CPC
funds, which I don't have the answer,
[1:55:57] » right? And Yep. So, we did have town
council
[1:56:01] um come in and talk to us and if the if
the town determines that it's being
[1:56:09] preserved for a his its historic bene
benefit
[1:56:14] and does not violate the anti- aid
laws like aiding somebody
[1:56:22] [clears throat] personally with public
funds, then they you could go forward.
[1:56:26] So, is he going to petition to make it
like a state historic landmark or
[1:56:30] something like that?
>> So, at this time, there's no public
[1:56:33] access to the property.
>> We did request that the property is
[1:56:38] opened up x amount of days a year, you
know, for historic tours. Um, but since
[1:56:45] it's being rented out,
um, he wasn't comfortable doing that.
[1:56:50] When he first bought that property,
there was a little building beside it
[1:56:54] and he he was going to make it his
office and they put a driveway going
[1:56:58] towards that. So, was that historical or
was that added on? Because he changed it
[1:57:04] all. I mean, what do you do with that
building?
[1:57:06] » Right.
>> And what about like a local historic
[1:57:09] restriction? Is there going to be a
local historic restriction placed on it
[1:57:12] or
>> It's going to be the state's historic
[1:57:14] » Oh, it is
>> uh restriction. Yeah.
[1:57:16] » All right. So the the town's community
preservation program Yeah.
[1:57:21] » uses the state's model restrictions.
>> Okay. Right.
[1:57:26] » The interpretation of our chair that
that is required and I support that.
[1:57:30] » I I mean I like to keep that building
but
[1:57:33] » it's very difficult. So a lot of members
um
[1:57:38] I think there were two members that
voted no.
[1:57:41] » Right. And uh we anticipate debate
um on town meeting floor about these
[1:57:49] issues. Um
it it right it and there was an idea
[1:57:54] floated by one of the members. Um if
that building were to um apply for a
[1:58:02] demolition permit,
>> there would be an 18month delay.
[1:58:05] » Oh, is it up to 18 months now?
>> I think so. That's what I haven't read.
[1:58:09] » Oh, that's right. Cuz we got the Yeah.
Okay. We have a demolition delay bylaw.
[1:58:13] » Yeah, I think it you Well, okay. Anyway,
>> and that would give time for the
[1:58:17] historical commission to try to save the
building
[1:58:20] » or salvage the parts of the building.
Sometimes they take out beams and
[1:58:24] windows and doors and store them for
something else. Um, but at this point
[1:58:29] I'm not hearing that the historical
commission
[1:58:33] um, uh, is going to approach the
community preservation
[1:58:38] committee for money to transport that
building to another spot to salvage it.
[1:58:43] Um, mostly because it is very wide. It's
it's it's very wide.
[1:58:49] » Well, it's a significant size parcel
too. lie it and do it like you know we
[1:58:53] have a museum at the bottom an office
space or something for the historical
[1:58:57] commission I mean I I don't want to see
that building go because we don't have
[1:59:03] many historical building
>> it's it is really nice looking too it's
[1:59:06] it does have
>> yeah but that begs the question if you
[1:59:10] don't have any access to it
>> you put given them $400,000 and
[1:59:15] » he's just got a home improvement loan
for free wave at the side Mhm.
[1:59:23] » And that's why Right. And that's why the
church got a unanimous vote was because
[1:59:29] that's a public building. Anybody can go
in there when it's open.
[1:59:33] » Yeah.
>> Right. And you know
[1:59:35] » what about the pastor's building?
Go work there. They have money, right?
[1:59:40] » Yep. There was $400,000
provided to that to the tribe to do uh a
[1:59:47] detailed survey.
I don't know if it's ultra I don't know
[1:59:52] what x-ray there's like this
>> right and they wanted to document all
[1:59:57] the different parts. I don't know if
that contract was ever signed. Um
[2:00:04] » put plywood around it. That was it.
>> And uh sorry, which church was that
[2:00:08] again? right here down the street.
>> Okay.
[2:00:12] » The I think it's the Baptist church.
>> Oh, sorry.
[2:00:15] » Yeah, I think the pastor actually came
into my office initially and I told him
[2:00:19] to put in a CPC. So, it's great to hear
that he got funding.
[2:00:23] » Brian went there was there was a
minister there. I want to say his last
[2:00:27] name was Green. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
um and he he was their minister and he
[2:00:34] passed away and they had the funeral
there and Brian said that bishops from
[2:00:40] all over the country came.
>> Really? Yeah.
[2:00:42] » Like it's a it's actually it's a very
simple building. It's a very simple
[2:00:47] site.
>> It's been around since like the 30s.
[2:00:49] » It was Yep. But it it um
it's connected.
[2:00:54] » Has a lot of history to it. has a lot of
history and a lot of very important
[2:00:59] people in our community worship there.
>> So, um, so sometimes it's not the most
[2:01:06] beautiful or spectacular building that
can be historic. Sometimes it can be a
[2:01:10] perfectly simple building that has huge
historic significance. So, but
[2:01:18] » okay, that's my report. Design review.
>> Who's on that? Karen.
[2:01:23] » Karen.
>> Yeah, she's going to say no meeting. Oh,
[2:01:26] there she is.
>> Plan review.
[2:01:28] » No meeting.
>> Environmental oversight committee.
[2:01:33] » No meeting.
>> You meet next week though.
[2:01:36] » Next week.
>> Yeah, I just cuz I looked at the list of
[2:01:38] meetings coming up. Historic district
commission.
[2:01:40] » We just have one tonight.
>> Really?
[2:01:43] » No.
[laughter]
[2:01:46] No. [gasps]
>> All right. A joke.
[2:01:50] » Anything else?
>> Accept a motion to adjurnn. So be
[2:01:55] » is there a second?
>> Second.
[2:01:57] » By roll call vote. Michael,
>> yes.
[2:01:59] » Dennis,
>> yes.
[2:02:00] » Dale,
>> yes.
[2:02:01] » Karen,
>> yes.
[2:02:03] » Mary is a yes. And Rob, how do you feel
about that?
[2:02:06] » Yes.
>> Yes. Sorry.