[This transcript was generated automatically from audio using AI and hasn't been reviewed by a person -- it can contain mistakes, including plausible-sounding sentences that were never actually said. Treat it as a starting point, not a verbatim record.] [0:06] Okay, I don't say anything naughty, recording. [0:11] Okay, nobody's hot on you. There you go. [0:18] Yeah, so I did this place to come. [0:21] Guys, I need it. [0:23] Is that what you're seeing? [0:25] Do you like to read? [0:26] It's the effort. [0:27] Oh, that's so awesome. [0:29] You may be thinking, what are you going to want to see? [0:33] Oh, especially because there's things to go with. [0:37] You heal it, right? [0:38] Actually, I was going to read this here. [0:40] Come on, come on, Jason, help me. [0:41] I would be asked if I got the big old boat with the nature sprays and that's what we do. [0:50] That's what we do. [0:52] For old Costco. [0:54] Are you okay? [0:55] I'm okay. [0:56] Very enthusiastic, [0:59] very interesting. [0:59] Hmm okay, let's hope he speaks over. [1:04] I'd like to show them to you on the table. [1:11] Let me see you. [1:15] Continue は なっ [1:16] The other day in that little place [1:18] Altair looks fabulous. [1:21] That little place I should have looked so nice. [1:26] It's all nice and awesome. [1:29] You heard of that one, isn't it? [1:30] But the little one over there, you can see it now. [1:33] It's really cute as a cute hole. [1:36] I just left all the lilacs. [1:39] Yeah. [1:40] The things that are there, still that were left there. [1:43] because, okay, what house? [1:46] Did you buy a house? [1:47] So there's a little work thing at the house. [1:49] Miss this one. [1:51] If you go right behind your place, [1:53] there's one of the old original fire hydrants [1:56] from back in the 30s. [1:58] It's stuck in the weeds not too far from your back door, [2:01] but it's the coolest looking thing. [2:04] Oh, yeah, from the old town, [2:06] it's all, it's just sitting there's a, [2:08] you walk on that little trail a little bit, [2:10] you'll see it sit back there, it's in the corner, yeah. [2:16] Yeah, I like to pull it out and like put it in front of the, because it's not working, but being [2:21] able to paint it and put it in front, it's back from the 30s root-cool old fire hydrate. [2:28] Yeah, I think we need a survey because I'm not quite sure where the property lines are there. [2:37] You want a pretty good square there? [2:40] Yeah, I think so. Just judging from the counties high. [2:43] Yeah, but I'm not sure. [2:47] Yeah, we're not going to be doing anything. [2:50] I meant to permit to the yard, but. [2:52] What we might want to put some gravel parking in, you know, [2:54] gravel where you drive in front and back. [2:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [2:57] I don't want to do anything. [3:01] You have a lot of room there because they used to park in front. [3:03] very used to yeah and then in the back room they're so cool there yeah I [3:08] would like that place. Well I don't know are we is it canceled? What's it [3:13] canceled? No time to get on I think. Is he trying to get on? He'll be on in just a [3:19] second time trying to get on. Yeah okay. I'll leave everybody to the house where? I told [3:25] I told you, I told you a while ago, it's time to go on Cascade. [3:31] Yeah, it's time to go on the other side. [3:33] I told you, didn't I? [3:34] Yeah, I think you did, but I, it was like, what? [3:39] You did it? [3:40] Yeah. [3:42] You did it. [3:43] It's like a little fairy tale. [3:44] Yeah. [3:45] You don't have to sit over there. [3:47] No, you don't. [3:48] Yeah. [3:49] You can come sit over here. [3:51] You don't have to go. [3:52] We don't bite. [3:54] Believe me. [3:54] What do you have to ask? [4:00] I mean, I imported a bunch of chocolate from New Zealand on the other day. [4:13] Like three boxes. [4:15] Are you there? [4:17] Yes, I am. [4:19] I can't hear you. [4:24] Let's see if we can turn you out. [4:25] No. [4:28] Sorry. [4:29] I'm [4:31] Can you turn him up? [4:32] Yeah, maybe. [4:34] Yeah, turn me up. [4:37] Turn you up. [4:39] I don't think so. [4:40] Probably when it is. [4:43] Volume. [4:44] Where have a hundred. [4:46] Bingo, bingo, bongo. [4:49] Yeah, definitely. [4:50] A lot of the kids. [4:52] Okay. [4:53] I could put a little microphone here. [5:00] We just got these, so we're still figuring it out. [5:05] Maybe. [5:07] And then Northwest. [5:09] Maybe we go like. [5:12] So now you probably lost your view of Pacta. [5:26] Actually. [5:28] Okay. [5:30] Say something now. [5:33] So [5:38] you sent them now, Tom. [5:40] 2009. [5:41] Yeah. [5:42] That didn't really help. [5:47] Okay, keep talking. [5:50] Okay, you go there. [5:53] Yeah. [5:54] One more thing. [5:56] Better. [5:57] That's louder. [5:58] Okay. [6:00] Well, we'll see. [6:05] Yeah. [6:05] off the computer, which I'm not even sure where it's at. Okay, so there's something now. [6:11] There's something now. [6:15] No. [6:19] It's not super helpful. Okay, you'll just have to talk loud. [6:26] Okay, is that loud? [6:28] Not really. It doesn't like being right there. [6:32] Oh, it's going to give you feedback. Yeah, what? [6:37] What? Keep talking. [6:40] How about this? [6:44] Any better? [6:45] Okay. Well, sort of. [6:47] Sort of kind of. [6:50] And that is for. [6:52] You're them all right? [6:56] No. [6:57] No. [6:58] No. [6:59] Anybody talking? [7:01] Yeah, I can hear that. [7:04] Can you hear me, Tom? [7:06] Yes, I can. [7:13] I hope we don't get too much feedback. [7:21] Okay. [7:22] Okay. [7:25] Okay. [7:29] Who's [7:33] all there? [7:37] Yeah, but who's there who do we got there from the commission? [7:43] Ones here and Quincy's here. [7:46] So Quincy and [7:50] Donna. [7:52] Yeah, sad. [7:53] And Katie's gonna be there so. [7:57] Okay. [8:13] So we just wait just wait and we'll have. [8:18] Yep, you don't have a poem. [8:29] So when Katie shows up, she's the vice chair. [8:37] Yes, [8:40] we're just trying to log in. [8:45] But it's really great to meet you. [8:53] Right. [8:53] you can find a [8:57] little white. [8:58] I'm going to do a fire department. [9:04] What are you doing? [9:04] Wait, whoa, whoa. [9:06] I didn't read it that way. [9:08] What are you guys writing? [9:10] I came over and called the Brian and Brian. [9:17] This is just sound, size, complete. [9:21] I'm going to complete this communication [9:24] and this other schedule. [9:27] Oh, so that's how I see it. [9:35] You know what, [9:40] yes, oh, I'm Katie's here, I have a microphone in front of me, [9:59] I'm just an alternate, so we see you and I can share. [10:08] So Katie's gone to order. [10:12] 338pm on Tuesday, May 3rd. [10:15] Okay, need to call Donna. [10:18] Donna, would you like to come to the table to be a voting member tonight? [10:22] We'll do. [10:23] Excellent. [10:24] Mom, would you like to call roll for us? [10:30] Okay, who do we got? [10:31] Katie and [10:36] Quincy and Donna, is that who we got? [10:39] Yes. [10:41] Okay, and we're missing GM, right? [10:44] Yes. [10:45] Okay. And who we got from the public? [10:52] Councilman Josh Good. [10:59] Josh Good? [11:00] Yep. [11:04] Any other public? [11:06] Uh, what's like now? [11:09] Okay. [11:10] You [11:47] don't have minutes, huh? [11:51] You should have the minutes. [11:59] What's there the minutes there? [12:01] I [12:07] just love this internet being down. [12:16] So this is set up by the convention report. [12:26] You don't have to. [12:27] is there a copy of the minutes there? [12:31] Motion to approve the meeting minutes from April 5, 2022. [12:39] Seconded. [12:40] One. [12:41] Who made the motion? [12:44] Wednesday. [12:45] Okay. [12:47] Seconded. [12:49] Donna second. [12:51] Yes. [12:55] Okay. [13:01] Looks like there are [13:11] public. [13:11] Where are you here? [13:13] I'm here. [13:14] here. I was just going to be here. I can't speak on behalf of people. [13:24] I do. I just want to have a mic. [13:32] So this is a chance for a good member of the public and council. I just wanted to make myself [13:39] available you guys at this meeting today because I decode to move some of the [13:48] commission nominees forward and not the others. So I just want to make myself [13:52] available to have any questions that you guys may have during before or after [13:58] the meeting. So I'm going to make myself present and available. [14:25] So [14:29] Tom, Councilman Good is here to help answer questions about what might have happened [14:36] at the last council meeting regarding voting for certain planning members. [14:44] You're absolutely right. It's not on the agenda. It's not a discussion topic. I mean, [14:49] you can make a statement, but it's not a topic of debate or discussion. [14:57] And let's just [14:57] on the agenda. Let's you choose. [15:00] I put it on the agenda, but then it really is not a planning issue. Well, it's kind of on there under the members reappointed by city council. Well, that's you're going to have to reappoint somebody. Donna to take one of those two vacant positions because you got a vacancy on there. And Donna, Donna is still an alternate needs to be appointed as a regular member. That's why I put that on there. Donna, if you choose. [15:29] You need to recommend that the council appoint Donna to one of those two open positions. [15:35] Okay, it looks like we are on staff and commission reports. [15:39] We have anything for us. [15:42] No other than two people were appointed to weren't. [15:49] And we have other things that will be coming up on the, you know, [15:53] planning here and probably within a month or so, [15:57] there's quite a few little things hanging out that are in the works. So they're going to take [16:02] planning approval. So I think they're [16:18] just, you know, this is a huge elephant in the room. [16:22] And I think the two founding members that have been here forever and used to just [16:30] be, you know, they had open comments a lot of the time and that's what I enjoyed the most about the [16:38] add that to the agenda, Tom? [16:43] What's that? [16:45] Dissection about the reappointment [16:48] and or not reappointment of meeting numbers. [16:53] You guys are allowed to discuss whatever you want. [16:55] It's just whether you choose to discuss it or not. [17:02] OK. [17:03] It looks like Marby has joined the call. [17:05] Hello, Marby. [17:07] Hello. [17:07] So [17:10] let's put that under commission. [17:12] It [17:16] has everyone listen to the audio. [17:21] I mean, from the city council. [17:24] No, I didn't listen to it. [17:27] I did this morning. [17:28] I should. [17:29] It looks good. [17:30] Well, it looks like they declined. [17:37] Reappoint. [17:38] Right. [17:39] cartnel to this position because he paired the meeting and loaded while his position was [17:46] fired. That was last week. That was last month. Yeah, that was last month. And so because of that, [17:55] that they decided to not get [18:04] fired by my nub surprise. [18:09] He [18:12] was not approved. [18:14] It looked like the council heights and reservations over being able to work. [18:23] They were probably so easy to work with. [18:29] So Tom. [18:31] So Tom, are these permanent? [18:34] or I [18:38] don't know how this works are they can they're [18:43] extended or is this just a cut and dry. No, they cannot be on the commission anymore. How does that work? Yes. Is this Quincy? [18:57] Okay, no, in this case, no, it's the council appoints the planning commission. So where you we operate at their pleasure, I guess. So if they choose not to appoint two members, that's it. [19:17] Can they change their minds? [19:23] I guess you'd have to go back before them again because it's, you know, like, I don't [19:29] know, you know, they, you have to have a motion to reconsider something like that. [19:36] I guess then you go through all that process, but, you know, it's, [19:42] but it's, it's their action. [19:45] They, we recommend they approve on this issue. [19:50] some planning issues, the planning to the final phase. [19:53] Other things the council is and you recommend. [19:56] And in the case of planning commission members, [19:59] we recommend and they appoint the position. [20:04] So what happens if there aren't enough planning commission [20:08] members to make a quorum? [20:09] What happens to all the issues coming forward? [20:13] Then you don't have a quorum to have. [20:15] You can't pass that issue. [20:17] So all of the public [20:19] like it's trying to get stuff down in the city of Stuck [20:22] and cannot move forward. [20:26] It's a pickle. [20:28] Yeah, it's a pickle. [20:32] I'm just, I'm trying, this is Quincy. [20:35] I'm just trying to understand and so I carefully listen [20:41] and it was kind of a mix between what I didn't understand [20:45] partly was issues between [20:48] I mean, what came to light with the foundation, the frails foundation, and then also some issues with, with Jake and Greg outside of that, and they were kind of all blurred together a little bit to me, but what I heard was one of the things was that Greg, which has been brought up in the past isn't a resident. [21:17] of our city. [21:21] And that he voted in the last meeting when his turn was already over by Katie said. [21:29] And the other things I understood and I apologize from wrong, but that there was a grant issue where somebody caught it, which is great. [21:42] maybe it was done should have been done differently or something like that, but that that that that somebody in the city caught it and but in like that was a big issue that sounded like a lot of money and then also maybe the way and emotional speech given by Jake, that felt contentious or something to some people. [22:12] So those are the things that I understood as kind of reasons for the council's vote. [22:24] We've got to be careful here folks that we don't go too far afield of what we're [22:31] supposed [22:33] to be doing. [22:33] In other words, discussion is one thing, but it's like it has to relate to the discussion [22:40] of planning commission matters, not other issues. [22:45] Let's put it that way. [22:46] I'm sorry. [22:47] I'm just, well, it's a learning opportunity, too, because I mean, we're here volunteering [22:52] and... [22:53] I know. [22:55] And we've tried really hard at that. [22:57] That's why there was a foundation, and you guys know that, that the planning commission [23:04] used to take care of the trails, and we got out of it because there was a parents of [23:08] with the open meeting law. And so it evolved. So I think Katie knows that because Katie was on it back when it was so. [23:19] And only two members could could be on it and beyond planning. [23:32] So other than that, it's like there's not a lot that can be done like I said, we operate at the pleasure of the council. [23:42] So they appoint or not appoint so and [23:50] like you said though the the nonmembers not an issue because that's in the code that's allowed and that one real state persons allowed when construction persons allowed. [24:01] But there again doesn't have to be any they don't have to have a reason they can either say yeah and a for any reason so they just say I just don't want those I don't like your last name. [24:11] They ain't appointing us. [24:13] So [24:25] we could make a [24:38] motion about [24:49] the last month was everybody just kind of trying to [24:55] step in where they left off or code it maybe we didn't do it right but I think people [25:05] being punished for, [25:09] it's, I don't know, just me, Donna. [25:15] It doesn't seem to add up. [25:20] I [25:20] think I feel like we're missing something. [25:31] It's just excruciating the hard-to-get [25:33] volunteers and there's a huge learning curve and [25:42] I mean it's it's it's it's [25:46] I mean, it's crippling to our city and [25:52] it doesn't make anybody really want to continue, you know, it's it's I [26:02] just feel like I am just going to say there's a lot of talk of being neighbors and that's what neighbors do and that's what neighbors do to help each other. [26:12] At the meeting at the at the council meeting, which I love, but I think, you know, sometimes there's disagreements and maybe they seem really big. [26:22] that the betterment of the city and the city in its whole, you know, we've worked [26:30] together before we've worked together again. Everybody's hard is in the right [26:35] place. [26:42] It's called agree to disagree and find a way to work it out. It can't [26:49] leave that hard, guys. [26:55] One of you like to make a motion that the City Council [26:59] So we visit their decisions for the mission to be great [27:04] heart now and at the forefront. [27:08] Is Jake going to be able to attend the meeting? [27:11] Don't leave reason I'm asking this is because Jake is [27:15] permanently based out of Seattle now. [27:19] So does he still living here? [27:22] Or well, that was part of really quick. [27:24] That was part of, I think, the last planning meeting, which [27:28] had been the first planning meeting since COVID that I remember quite a while. And one of the things [27:34] that I thought was really, really, um, special about that was when grade and um, big spoke. They both [27:45] had, you know, a lot of, just kind of, you could tell going through some things that they wanted to [27:52] share with us that besides this city step that seemed like it was really tough. And so I think, [28:05] if I can make a motion, [28:12] that the council might reconsider [28:15] reinstating Jake Hartnell and Jake Meyer and Greg Hartnell, I do it in a minute, [28:23] and maybe I should just maybe I'm just going to do it. [28:28] Is that a motion? [28:30] Yes, it was. [28:31] We have a second. [28:32] Three, [28:40] four. [28:41] And I just think it's so cool that Margie here [28:45] and also that Josh did is here because, you know, [28:51] one of the things I was thinking about was, [28:53] even though we've only had one planning commission. [28:55] Yeah. [28:56] Since COVID was, you know, maybe the council could come to our meeting, you know, in a couple [29:06] of years. [29:06] So that's great. [29:08] Yeah. [29:09] They can't do that either because we've been down that road to on certain things. [29:14] If it's an issue that's going to come before them, they can't be there for deliberations on something [29:21] that they're going to be in a quasi-judicial position. [29:25] So on planning issues, you got to be careful [29:27] on what they can attend on some things [29:30] other things they can't, so. [29:32] OK. [29:34] So I will be supposed to give Donna a position one [29:40] if he's the only person that can second. [29:51] Did you hear me tell him? [29:53] What's that? [29:55] We're wanting to put Donna on there. [29:57] Got it. [30:00] The regular member once you put her up there, you know, you know, once you've called her the table, she becomes a regular board member. She allowed to vote on herself. Absolutely. Allow to make motions and vote once she just called to the table. Right. [30:21] So, yeah, you have a quorum of three that can vote and make motions. [30:26] Do you like to make a motion that you appoint? [30:38] I got it. [30:39] I thought I told you to put it in your mouth. [30:41] Yes. [30:42] Oh, so we don't have an open. [30:48] Yeah. [30:48] Oh, you're making a motion to what? [30:51] We're not making a motion. [30:53] I just got bounced out, Tom. [30:56] It's Donna. [30:57] Oh, [31:03] yeah. [31:08] Well, if you're doing that, you already did the motion to reconsider. [31:12] That's right. [31:14] Well, then I don't know. [31:16] you might want to table any appointing somebody to a vacant position if you're asking them to reconsider. [31:21] Exactly. That's what we that's the conclusion we came to as well. [31:28] So you just make a motion to table. [31:32] Somebody make a motion to table it and second and table it. [31:37] I make a motion to table [31:40] We'll nominating Donna Anzelotti to one of the vacant landing commission positions until next time. [31:53] Until next month. [31:55] We have a second. [31:56] I second. [31:57] All in favor. [31:59] I bring you favor. [32:02] Would anyone like to talk with Howard Strawberry? [32:06] Oh, you did. [32:07] So nice of you. [32:10] Why don't we get you back in here? [32:15] Oh, getting better. One of these days. [32:17] Be nice at the Internet work, too. So. [32:21] Yeah, they're having lots of issues. [32:33] Next, we have unfinished business on there's no unfinished business. [32:45] Are we allowed to invite the public to speak? [32:51] Allow the public to what? [32:52] What? [32:52] Speak. [32:54] Yes, you're meeting just, you know, whatever. [32:59] Yeah. [33:00] I would like to speak it all. [33:04] So, [33:17] this is, this is constantly Josh. [33:19] I speak for for myself, but I cannot speak for myself. [33:33] Obviously, there's a lot of, there's a lot of backstory and conflict that has gone in. [33:40] with the rail foundation and Greg and Jake from all over the Trial [33:48] Foundation. [33:52] One of my [33:55] reservations from that was the Trial [34:01] Foundation was corresponding to council members and the very very [34:11] studious about following the ruins, [34:18] to see Greg share a meeting for a body of [34:25] which he was not a member of, [34:29] and for Jake also to participate and promote the [34:34] building. That was a big concern for me because they demonstrated for me in a [34:42] and asked if they knew what they needed to work for. [34:50] I had a ponderous spectrum of what those guys [34:54] have, and what they contribute to the center. [34:58] The trails are a great resource here. [35:03] I really appreciate the work that, that one, [35:08] it wasn't a reputable breakdown, [35:09] communication between them and the administration, but the council and the [35:19] unrulyness to really talk with us was disappointing, and that really worried [35:28] me that if there were going to be situations where the council made it to [35:33] and commission. [35:37] I wasn't confident that there would be an open line of communication. [35:44] I would question any of the council meetings to give it a mere set of differences. [35:53] You know, for the first few invites, I wouldn't mind getting no response. [36:15] Yeah, and I can't hear anything and he's saying. [36:33] I [36:36] would [36:39] like to get the personal issues with all between the [36:46] I mean, essentially council and Greg and other concern on it kind of brought to my attention is if Jake isn't. [37:00] It's not exciting here in the city. He's based out of Seattle. It's the and Greg also isn't living in the city. We can only take one of. [37:11] Jake lives in the city. He works away. He lives in Stoke residents here. He still has a resident here. [37:22] Yeah. Yeah. [37:23] Question, Tom. [37:24] Um, [37:27] you know, and the way the council voted, we very deliberately ensure that you guys had enough voting members for, for a quorum. [37:36] We didn't want to disrupt the activities of the planning commission. Well, I didn't want to disrupt the activities of the planning commission. Again, I can't speak for my. [37:49] I said, not working again. [37:55] I just had some serious reservations about [37:59] equity and professionalism. [38:02] That's [38:05] why I debated the way I did it. [38:07] I would like to get a result of everyone [38:09] together and talk. [38:12] I tried calling numbers on the trails commission website. [38:15] I didn't get a good response. [38:19] You know, [38:39] I [38:48] think [39:04] that's [39:13] those are valid points and I appreciate that that council are good as. [39:22] But I also think there just feels like such a rigidity when our [39:33] city a lot of the times has had roadblocks. [39:38] We've been stagnant. We haven't had vision at times. [39:44] And I just think it's a huge loss. [39:49] It's very disheartening to have, you know, all of a sudden, I get what they're saying and when you can't have communication, it's frustrating, doesn't make sense. [40:04] But I do know there's always two sides to a story and I do think the amount of time that's been put in in the past 17 years since I've, pretty much since I've lived here, these guys have been showing up. [40:16] I don't know what that is in the amount of meetings twice a month, that many years and the goodness far outweighs, you know, this last minute after COVID. [40:30] and aspiration and everybody's lives, [40:35] meaning to kind of ahead and just think, [40:39] I just think we should be able to get over [40:40] this as a city because we [40:46] can't lose people like this. [40:48] And even though, I mean, I think these are good points [40:52] about non-residents of Greg Hartnell, [40:56] you know, we've gone through these before in the past. [40:59] We just can't, you know, it's not for not wanting to reside here. [41:04] I've talked to Greg, Greg would give anything to live here. [41:08] He loves this place, he gives it, it's all, he, I think he actually is planning on moving [41:14] here in the future and I, I just think he's dedicated so much of his time more than most [41:21] of the residents here to the betterment of our city and we've gotten past this, you know, [41:28] this idea in the past, I think we can get past it again. [41:32] That's all I have to say, but very good points. [41:37] Yes, great points, but sometimes, you know, [41:43] times we just have to look at each other and say, [41:46] hey, we need to work this out. [42:01] Am I honest opinion? [42:02] Yes. [42:06] And I know Brian can hear me. [42:10] We need to learn to agree to disagree and fix it. [42:17] Find middle ground because [42:22] this doesn't work. [42:24] This is not that big of community. [42:26] It's big enough. [42:28] But it's not like we're living in Vancouver. [42:33] Anyway, that's all I have to say. [42:37] Welcome. [42:37] in [42:40] the stake, in [42:51] the stake, the right people on. [42:53] And I think these two members are the heart and soul [42:58] of this planning commission. [43:02] If he was saying to lose on this way, [43:05] it would be a slap in the face to all of us. [43:08] And I don't think we're going to afford to lose that. [43:14] Yeah, it'll all come. [43:17] What's that? [43:20] We get the recording. [43:22] Looking for the coding. [43:25] I could hear all of it pretty much. [43:27] and bless, I'll play it back. [43:29] Hopefully the recording works out. [43:34] Does anyone else have anything to add before we adjourn? [43:40] Go ahead, Pablo. [43:44] So since you guys voted to put them before Council again, [43:49] I would, I would suggest that they [43:55] reach out [43:56] to Council members independently. [43:58] We ever come, we should website at the minimum I would encourage [44:05] them to attend the council meetings so we can I want to make an important distinction to also [44:14] I'm not opposed to having people who do not live [44:21] as a huge resource and knowledge base [44:25] it's always good to have outside eyes so my other council members had concerns about that that's [44:36] I would encourage them to come to the council meeting and to communicate with the council. [44:44] I'm going to be asking for us to put them on the commission. [44:48] Yala [44:53] Yala [45:00] It is going to be next Tuesday, May 10th. [45:25] That's all. I make [45:32] a motion to adjourn. I second it. Good job, [45:44] guys. Get a good job. Thank you, Tom. [45:51] Thank you. Well, [45:56] I do the same thing.