1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,560
Welcome to

2
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:21,320
NJSPA's podcast program, School of Law today. A program that discusses school

3
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:27,440
law issues with school board attorneys throughout the state. Today's guest is Jonathan Bush and

4
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,140
I'll introduce him formally later. And we'll be talking about the navigating the referendum

5
00:00:32,140 --> 00:00:40,320
process from his perspective and his background. Jonathan is the partner of the Bush Law

6
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:41,900
So welcome Jonathan.

7
00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:45,100
Thank you. Thanks for that. I appreciate you having me.

8
00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:53,980
Just tell us a little bit about how long you've been in school law and a little bit about your firm before we get started on the referendum process.

9
00:00:55,380 --> 00:01:01,000
Absolutely. So I've been practicing school law for most of my legal career.

10
00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,680
It's pretty great to be able to practice law but do so within the constraints of the schools.

11
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,640
you know if you're at any interest in education the idea of doing you know

12
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,200
school law is really you know it's really the perfect job in my opinion

13
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,240
yeah the

14
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:29,280
firm yeah sure yeah do keep going yeah sure so so the firm the firm was the

15
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:36,460
firm was founded in 2014 couple guys and I started the Bush Law Group and we

16
00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:44,360
started with, you know, seven clients in one county and we're up to 19 now in 10

17
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,840
counties where as far north is, you know, high point regional up in Sussex

18
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,600
County as far south as commercial township down in Cumberland County. So we're

19
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,080
really far and wide across the state of New Jersey and we're doing some really

20
00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:08,460
interesting work with school boards in urban, suburban, you know, areas and in fascinating

21
00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:13,180
to see the way that these issues play out in various communities.

22
00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:19,760
Of course, the issue that we're talking about today is referenda and how boards respond

23
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:26,180
to referenda and what school districts can do to keep themselves out of trouble if you

24
00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:34,660
will. Okay, before we get to the role of the board once they decide to do that, and they

25
00:02:34,660 --> 00:02:39,660
don't come to the decision of doing a bond referendum lightly, it's usually something

26
00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:44,020
that's decided with over the course of many discussions. Is there any advice you would

27
00:02:44,020 --> 00:02:50,260
give to a school board or school district before they make the decision from your perspective?

28
00:02:50,260 --> 00:02:57,120
So it's a great question, you know, typically speaking school districts rely on both their

29
00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:03,940
general counsel and their bond counsel for handling referendum projects.

30
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:12,180
You know, the bond counsel really helps a school district put together a plan that is feasible

31
00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:17,060
and you typically would work if it's a capital project for example as most of these are, you

32
00:03:17,060 --> 00:03:24,240
work with your local architect and you also put together engineers and you put together

33
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:30,920
a plan, that front-end work like you referred to earlier can be time-consuming and process

34
00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:38,260
oriented, but once you have presented a plan, the general council is really important

35
00:03:38,260 --> 00:03:46,900
to consult with because you need to be able to get a sense from them as to what you can

36
00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:52,840
and what you shouldn't do, because there really are a lot of rules that come into play

37
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:59,460
and a lot of concerns under certain circumstances that may jeopardize a board's interest.

38
00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:08,760
Yeah, now the board decides usually through a vote that they want to place this on the ballot.

39
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,980
That action in of itself kind of shows a support for the project.

40
00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:20,740
You want to put that on there if you aren't supporting the project, but during the education

41
00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:26,980
of the voters, they kind of, this goes back to when we had a lot of ballot, when we

42
00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:32,460
had the past budget a lot, they have to remain neutral, and what does neutral mean in educating

43
00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:32,940
the voters?

44
00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:38,320
Well, before getting into that, let me just say in your question, I have confronted and seen

45
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,280
board members who may be opposed to their own referendums.

46
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:49,420
So it's interesting because, like you said, the board is voting on a question, but there

47
00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:50,480
isn't supposed to be.

48
00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:55,960
And again, it may fly in the face of all that is practical, at least in most places.

49
00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,780
But in more unconventional circumstances, there are board members who oppose a referendum.

50
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,440
Typically, they wouldn't put it on the ballot, but there could be a situation where a ballot

51
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:13,560
question is presented and you know there's some controversy associated with it. So what

52
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:23,000
we what we suggest oftentimes is is you know is is keeping the language neutral you ask

53
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,960
what does neutral mean you know don't take a position. The theory in the law behind it

54
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:34,480
is that if the board is is funding an election it shouldn't be taking a position on the election.

55
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,040
So some people listen to this and say, well, how the heck we not take a position on something

56
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:39,740
that we're presenting?

57
00:05:39,740 --> 00:05:45,200
Well, informational campaigns, informational campaigns where you describe the amount

58
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:52,920
of money that's going to be proposed, what the project means, the impact it would have

59
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:58,840
on the district, sometimes we're walking a fine line, but basically speaking, so long as

60
00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:04,900
you're not specifically asking people to vote yes, or in some cases, rare, but some cases

61
00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:10,340
vote no, then you've done your job, you've remained neutral.

62
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:18,360
Just a piece of advice we usually give is you're trying to get it, hopefully the referendum

63
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,820
if you really believe in it, you have all the board members on board, but you don't want

64
00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:28,280
to try to probably go into a referendum with the four three vote because I think that would

65
00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:31,440
be difficult message for your community.

66
00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:36,100
Just to agree.

67
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:43,280
And the poll, yeah, well, real quick, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it is a very complicated

68
00:06:44,220 --> 00:06:47,300
political process, and each community is so different, right?

69
00:06:47,380 --> 00:06:51,320
I mean, we see that across the state in the districts we represent, you know, although we

70
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:59,880
are lawyers and we give legal advice, you sometimes observe the politics that occur in some

71
00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,900
in some communities, the boards are really their own units and separate.

72
00:07:04,060 --> 00:07:08,880
In other communities, the boards are more tied to the township or municipal, I should say dynamic.

73
00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:16,760
And so those factors all play into, at the end of the day, whether or not a referendum passes.

74
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,800
Now, when you say the board member, let's get into what board members and boards can do.

75
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,360
But this is tied, particularly for the board, is that they cannot be expending this neutral

76
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,940
campaign because they're expending district resources.

77
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:35,660
Is that the debate?

78
00:07:38,780 --> 00:07:40,340
Let's be really clear.

79
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,820
Just because the board of education, and I say board of education, I'm speaking of the legal

80
00:07:45,820 --> 00:07:52,880
entity of a board of education, just because a board of education can't publicly, as a board

81
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:59,580
board act take a position on a referendum does not mean that board members individually

82
00:08:00,140 --> 00:08:01,520
may not take a position.

83
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:08,560
In fact, board members often do effectively and are some of the best advocates for passage

84
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,300
of a referendum.

85
00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:15,740
And so one of the things that we have seen is that board members ask questions like, what

86
00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:16,280
can I do?

87
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:25,760
What am I able to participate in as a means of helping a referendum pass, because the

88
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,360
first thought they have is that their hands are tied.

89
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:28,600
Their hands are not tied, right?

90
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:38,580
I mean, they can't speak from the microphone and encourage a yes vote in their capacity

91
00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:42,900
as a board member during a official time, like you said, using district resources.

92
00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:46,780
But they can speak and say that they're personally for the referendum.

93
00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,900
They can even probably do so from a microphone at a board meeting, so long as they say it's

94
00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,860
their own opinion and not the opinion necessarily of the board.

95
00:08:57,060 --> 00:09:02,980
We've said and told board members they can put up lawn signs, for example, assuming that

96
00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:06,800
there are lawn signs in a particular campaign which we've seen, you know, a vote yes, signary,

97
00:09:07,060 --> 00:09:08,400
vote no sign.

98
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,360
They can distribute pamphlets, you know, they can go door-to-door.

99
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,660
They have that first amendment right to do that just because they're a member of the board does not strip them of that right

100
00:09:17,660 --> 00:09:27,740
They can, although there's been no case law on this, they can donate to a campaign and I'll talk to you about that

101
00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:35,860
Maybe a little later, but some districts have chosen to form what are called political committees not not packs

102
00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:42,440
But political committees are similar to candidate committees in the context of New Jersey's

103
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,860
Election Law Enforcement Commission, where you create a candidate committee for the

104
00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:51,140
purpose of running for office, groups of people in a particular community can form a political

105
00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:57,040
committee for the purpose of supporting or opposing a referendum question.

106
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,740
So that's how you often end up with the yes or no signs.

107
00:10:01,740 --> 00:10:04,860
You have a political committee and a paid for line at the bottom of the sign just like you

108
00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:08,980
would if you were running your own campaign for public office they can donate funds to

109
00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:09,200
that.

110
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,940
Letters to the editor, you know, in certain communities and not just letters to the

111
00:10:13,940 --> 00:10:18,220
editor could be, you know, letters to or posts on a blog.

112
00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:29,540
In some communities there are there are particular, you know, media entities that are highly

113
00:10:29,540 --> 00:10:37,220
effective and a local blog where people read frequently or look, let's take it to social

114
00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:44,360
media, social media posts, websites that relate to particular communities. You can post

115
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,280
on all of those. Those are just like letters to the editor in the more traditional and

116
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:56,360
print context, but you have to say that your writing is you individually and that is from

117
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,140
you individually and that you're not speaking as a member of the board.

118
00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:04,280
and that relates to an older school ethics decision with respect to letters to the editor.

119
00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:10,940
Right, and before we get on to my next lecture, if anyone has a question, they can type it in the chat room.

120
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,960
You can log in to the chat room. You just have to register with a blog talk radio.

121
00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:26,420
Or you can call 1-3-4-7-989-8904-1347-989-8904

122
00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:32,300
and just press one and Mike is working our switch board and he'll get the question up to me

123
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:41,180
and your name and everything else. Just going back to yours, when you were talking about the social

124
00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:48,600
media and writing stuff, letters to the editor, you put the disclaimer that you're speaking for

125
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,500
yourself as an individual, not as a board member. That's correct, right? Yeah, absolutely. Now it's so

126
00:11:54,500 --> 00:12:00,740
important because yeah go ahead. And so a lot of these laws that we the was that are governing

127
00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:04,140
a board role here is comes from the school ethics commissions rulings.

128
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,420
It's correct. It comes

129
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,000
from the school ethics commission ruling and again there are two important decisions I think to note

130
00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:18,600
and in fact I'm going to plug another school board publication if I can during this conversation

131
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,160
in the most recent school leader magazine I think it's the January February 2017 edition

132
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:33,360
Doug Silvestro from my office, and I authored basically a written version of the subject of

133
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,800
this podcast, which is called How to Successfully Navigate Your Board Through the Referendum

134
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:38,840
Process.

135
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:48,340
I think it begins on page 12, and I outline and describe some of the decisions of the School

136
00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:50,920
Ethics Commission that are most helpful.

137
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:59,540
There's no specific decision on a board member's, you know, a board's involvement in

138
00:12:59,540 --> 00:13:04,500
a referendum except for one that involves two current board members who were opposed

139
00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:10,980
to a referendum and it addressed the essential question, I guess, is do you have a right

140
00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:20,000
to oppose the Board of Education's referendum and the answer was, of course, they do.

141
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,040
they have a right just like anybody has a right to support

142
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,160
the referendum

143
00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:27,080
right and i i guess as we move through this

144
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,820
when we start talking about what the board member can and cannot do

145
00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:32,500
in support of a referendum

146
00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:34,620
the reverse holds true

147
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,180
for the opposite they have put their to one board member who opposes it

148
00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:42,140
they can still write the letters they can still post on uh... social media

149
00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:44,520
they can do the same things

150
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:47,540
just in opposition to the the referendum

151
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:50,460
them if they're to loan to sent to sentin vote.

152
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:57,580
You know the mindset ray for a board member in a district that is presenting a referendum

153
00:13:57,580 --> 00:14:03,900
to the voters should be we are presenting this referendum to the voters here is what

154
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:11,100
it would do if it passed here's what it would do if it failed this is a proposed plan let

155
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:16,080
us know if you support it or not by going to vote please vote it's important to vote that's

156
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,700
about the limit you can say in your official capacity again

157
00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:22,140
you can buy you on sign you can contribute you can do all those other things

158
00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:25,200
some of the things that you have to be particularly careful about again is

159
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,020
is claiming to speak

160
00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:28,660
on the board's behalf without

161
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,560
the authorization to do so

162
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,680
uh... you're really really cannot

163
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:35,300
and this is important because it could potentially

164
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:36,340
carry other

165
00:14:36,340 --> 00:14:39,900
concerns but uh... you know i i i think concerns

166
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,100
boards have to be very careful about

167
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:49,860
potentially spending district resources to support or oppose and usually the

168
00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,640
context that we're concerned about most would be a district using district

169
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,600
resources to support a referendum. For example, telephone lines, you know, you

170
00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:59,960
may not pay any additional money.

171
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:07,640
The fact that you could potentially be using a telephone in your district. Again, this sounds

172
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:13,980
fickle, but it could be an issue. If you're using your telephone to make phone calls, to

173
00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:19,240
encourage people to vote yes, that's a problem. You can't do that. If you're using a district

174
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,260
email because you're a district employee, let's say, or a board member and you have a district

175
00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:30,820
address, and you're sending out emails, encouraging people to vote yes, that's a problem potentially.

176
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:40,160
Again, you're allowed to express your opinion, but you can't be using district resources to support a position one way or the other.

177
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:47,800
The other issue we see with board members sometimes is sharing information that's not otherwise available to the public.

178
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:54,260
and if you have information about the referendum that's not public information and I mean something

179
00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:58,440
that's subject to say attorney-climate by something your bond counsel told you or something

180
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:04,020
your general counsel told you and you go out and you describe that that's as a way of

181
00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:10,320
either undermining or supporting the referendum that's a potential concern and the biggest

182
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,740
issue we see is let's get back to that disclaimer for a second ray and that's writing an opinion

183
00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:24,680
on either Twitter or Facebook or a blog or a letter to the editor without the

184
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,540
disclaimer language. According to School Ethics Act is a specific violation of

185
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:34,140
the rules of ethics that all board members are subject to in the State of New

186
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:42,280
Jersey. Okay, I have a caller. Jay, you have a couple of questions. Do you want to get

187
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,760
on the bidding process.

188
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,800
Hi, thanks for taking my call.

189
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,300
I just had a question going through the process.

190
00:16:53,620 --> 00:16:56,760
If you were initially in the stages of a capital project,

191
00:16:57,060 --> 00:16:59,460
a new construction or something along those lines

192
00:16:59,460 --> 00:17:03,200
and you're working with the engineer and architect firm,

193
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:08,380
would it be wise to get more than one different firm or company

194
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:14,480
to use for proposals for initial estimated costs that ultimately are going to be what's on the ballot.

195
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,060
Is this something that happens in the past or is that something that you would recommend doing?

196
00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:21,520
Yeah, so that's a great question and I have seen that.

197
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,680
I saw that a couple of years ago in a district that I've been working for years.

198
00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:33,820
You know, you have proposals from architects because look, you're not supposed to do this often, right?

199
00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:38,160
It's supposed to be a once in a while task, a once in a while activity.

200
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:40,740
It's how you maintain your credibility with voters.

201
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:49,460
So when you do it, you got to make sure that you do it with every bit of effort and every thought considered.

202
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:58,700
So when you're asking about architects and engineers, look, all professionals will come to this with different idea.

203
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:05,520
And so I think asking for the proposals is a way for you to be able to tell your public,

204
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:09,520
and again, this is from an informational standpoint, this would be okay.

205
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:13,860
And even from an advocacy standpoint where you're wearing your advocacy hat,

206
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,780
which is, again, not in your physical capacity as a board member,

207
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,360
but you really want to be able to say that you considered everything.

208
00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:25,620
And that the reason that you came up with the particular approach that you're presenting is X, Y, and Z.

209
00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:32,040
and that other plans may have presented A, B and C, but X, Y, and Z was better because,

210
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:33,980
you know, for whatever reason.

211
00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:40,720
So I think it's essential that you get proposals, you know, and I know that, you know, it can

212
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,820
be difficult, especially in a place where an architect or an engineer has been for years,

213
00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:48,440
you know, you have your district architect or your district engineer.

214
00:18:49,060 --> 00:18:54,720
But that doesn't necessarily mean that some fresh ideas aren't important and it's something

215
00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,720
that, you know, the district has to care, you know, carefully consider. So it's a good

216
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,100
idea to answer your question.

217
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:03,880
Great, thanks for taking the call.

218
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:04,440
Okay.

219
00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:05,260
Absolutely.

220
00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:12,460
Yeah, that's kind of the, I think when you go forward with the referendum, your public really

221
00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:16,880
wants to know that you kind of went through everything. All the steps in that, you covered

222
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:23,420
all your bases, and this is the proposal before that you ask all those questions.

223
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,020
And Ray, you're asking your public for millions of dollars that the board wouldn't otherwise

224
00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:31,400
have the authority to spend in doing so.

225
00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:36,140
How could you do it without telling them that you turned every rock over and made sure

226
00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:40,620
that you did the best for them in presenting it, and that you saved them as much money as

227
00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:40,960
possible?

228
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,500
Now, I just want to switch gears a little bit, and this will hold for both a board member

229
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,160
who might support or oppose.

230
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:55,820
There's a lot of people involved in the community and sometimes, oftentimes, the district has

231
00:19:55,820 --> 00:20:01,100
a referendum, the superintendent, the business administrator or some of the board members

232
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:04,660
may go to organizations like the parent groups, the PTA.

233
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,740
Are there any restrictions in that area if a, say, the board president and the superintendent

234
00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:13,700
want to go to PTA meetings and talk to the parents about the proposal?

235
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:16,360
are there any restrictions that they have?

236
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,840
You know, again, they can go and explain their person.

237
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,920
So they can certainly provide informational campaigns.

238
00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:26,000
And let me also say that we have seen

239
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,880
districts print flyers that are

240
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,360
informational in nature.

241
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:37,040
And, you know, they are really

242
00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:41,660
designed in a way that some people would suggest

243
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:48,740
you know, advocate for passage. But again, if the language doesn't specifically advocate

244
00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:54,480
for passage, the informational aspect is encouraged. It really is. As long as it's done

245
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:59,520
within reason, and I think the school accountability regulations speak to that to some degree. I'm not

246
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:10,360
going to get into that now, but the informational aspects of the campaign in general, I don't

247
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,760
yes or no i mean the district's campaign to educate

248
00:21:13,230 --> 00:21:17,220
it are central so part of that i think is to go around a community organizations

249
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,380
pto's are are huge part of most communities

250
00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:25,420
uh... school district you know political activism in in in our great resource

251
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:26,560
for getting people to vote

252
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,160
so yes i would highly encourage a superintendent

253
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,340
and say a board president or anyone else

254
00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:35,080
uh... to go and at least in advocate for an informational standpoint

255
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:35,800
the

256
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,480
there's nothing restricting a superintendent

257
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:45,380
and or a board member from going to one of those meetings and advocating for passage as

258
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:48,460
well, so long as they follow the rules that we talked about earlier and they're doing

259
00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:51,100
in their personal capacity and they let everyone know that.

260
00:21:52,900 --> 00:22:00,700
And your parent organizations, I guess in your education, the teachers union, they can advocate

261
00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:05,260
as much as they want for this proposal.

262
00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:10,400
They can, and they do, Ray, they can, and they do, Ray, you know, another piece of this

263
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,900
that I've seen that can be very successful are, you know, something called project labor

264
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:14,280
agreements.

265
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:21,360
And project labor agreements are agreements by boards of education to do everything they

266
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:26,600
possibly can to use organized labor when push comes a shove if the project passes and they're

267
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:27,240
building something.

268
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,200
You know, there are the criticism of the potential for project labor agreements is it almost

269
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,440
always increase the costs. I don't necessarily agree with that. And I've had

270
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,440
conversations with labor leaders over the years, over the years that have suggested

271
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,860
otherwise. But, you know, that's a perception of people. It sometimes has to be

272
00:22:45,860 --> 00:22:51,740
overcome. That being said, if a district adopts a project labor agreement where

273
00:22:51,740 --> 00:23:01,220
they're basically agreeing to go forward with, you know, organized labor, when

274
00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:06,300
then they construct whatever their project is a new school or an addition to the school

275
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:12,000
or multiple editions or multiple, you know, construct schools, you know, what you find

276
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:19,500
is an incredible, obviously, incredible amount of support from organized labor, from unions

277
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:25,660
in New Jersey because, obviously, if this thing passes, there's an opportunity for a lot

278
00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:33,900
of jobs and so you do see a correlation between the passage of, again, what are called

279
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:41,200
Project Labor Agreements and the assistance in passing a referendum with the assistance

280
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:46,480
of, you know, of organized labor and, you know, I can't say enough about that in my experience

281
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,060
over the years.

282
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:53,040
And in most districts, the teachers and the staff support something like this because it

283
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,660
usually improves their work environment.

284
00:23:56,780 --> 00:24:03,020
Well, the NJA has done a great job at putting support

285
00:24:03,020 --> 00:24:04,820
and even lots of money in some cases

286
00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:08,240
into campaigns to support referendum.

287
00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:12,540
Because again, if you're going to build new schools likely,

288
00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:15,140
you're going to need more teachers and more staff.

289
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:22,100
And beyond that, like you said, right, it depends on the proposal.

290
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:27,500
But typically speaking, it will enhance the environment in which these people work.

291
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,200
So of course, they're trying to support education.

292
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:39,180
Going back to, like, if I've heard of board members doing this because going back to

293
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:44,460
your original, sometimes they feel hesitant in that neutral thing as a whole board, they

294
00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:47,620
take personally, that they can't do anything as an individual.

295
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,060
So, if they're speaking, just say it's a board member.

296
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,480
Maybe they're a parent and a member of the PTA and they feel they're asked by the PTA members.

297
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,580
Are you supporting this?

298
00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:01,480
They can just floor out. Yes, I'm supporting it personally.

299
00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:08,360
I think it's a good project. I'm speaking as a board as an individual in this case.

300
00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:11,260
Because I've heard a board member say, well, I can't talk to that.

301
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:16,620
And that kind of can really hurt your potential passage of it if the board member is not individual.

302
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:24,160
individually speaking on behalf of that right so and that's why a lot of board members are not a lot of board members are you know

303
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:31,560
they're elected officials but they're not politicians right so they do their best to to stay out of trouble and and speak from the heart and

304
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:38,340
that's important with what you're describing because yes people are become so afraid of what you can't do and this is one of

305
00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:43,960
the issues we face as lawyers in general I mean in my firm you know we try to give people practical advice because

306
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,580
because there's so much about what you can't do that they forget about everything they can.

307
00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:54,100
And in this case, really, you can almost do everything else that anyone who's not a

308
00:25:54,100 --> 00:26:00,540
board member can do, except when you're sitting at that dais and you're writing a letter

309
00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:01,120
to the editor.

310
00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:04,580
That's really the only, you know, on a blog or a Facebook, when I say letter to the editor,

311
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,760
I'm really speaking about all the formats because these days are far more than just a letter

312
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,620
to the newspaper, right?

313
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:13,380
So, but you really can do everything that everyone else can do, except when you're at the

314
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:18,160
days at the board meeting, right, or speaking somehow in your official capacity as a board member.

315
00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:23,180
If you're, you're, you're getting, there's even a probably a way for you, all those questions

316
00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:26,720
not been addressed directly by the school ethics commission, but to speak from your chair

317
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,220
as a board member, to say what you personally believe.

318
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:33,380
So even when you're at the day as you can do it, but again, it has to be made clear.

319
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,180
As long as you say this and then say, but this is my personal opinion and as a board member

320
00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:43,320
I'm not representing the, you know, the board in this position, that is, you know, that's

321
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:43,700
essential.

322
00:26:43,940 --> 00:26:48,300
So, my advice is there's a lot more you can do than you can and then don't worry so

323
00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:48,560
much.

324
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:55,140
And say we're, we'll be very positive thinkers here and your district passes the referendum.

325
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:01,900
Are there any restrictions can they, it's not a blank check that the money that the referendum

326
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:07,980
and say it's a million dollars for replacing air conditioning in windows, say it comes under

327
00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:13,720
that the bid process and they have extra money, can they just spend that money however they want?

328
00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:17,520
No, absolutely not, and that's a big issue.

329
00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:27,700
Again, talk about trust of board members and the trust of the public who elect them and the project that's being presented.

330
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:35,460
You know, Ray, you think about it, you're asking them for a specific dollar amount to do something very specific.

331
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:43,380
You cannot do anything else than that which you said you would do in the proposed question.

332
00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:48,460
And even if you said something during an informational campaign but it's not in the actual question,

333
00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:51,620
you have to stick to what it is that you presented.

334
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,620
And that's something that you and your bond council will have to really discuss

335
00:27:55,620 --> 00:28:25,280
if you're a board member you have to discuss with your bond council because if there's something that you think should be in there but it's not and you're still within the deadline to present the Department of Education and your local board of elections then you really have to make sure that that that's in there because you can't educate the public on something that you know they're not voting on and again the money certainly can't go to just whatever they want air conditioning windows so that's important. I'll tell you one other quick piece and that is

336
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:33,620
One of our districts recently had a devastating fire to one of its schools and as a result had

337
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:41,620
to construct an entirely new school building but was unable to find the resources obviously

338
00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:46,920
without a referendum to construct a new school, part of it was because they were in the process

339
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:53,320
of arguing with their insurance carriers to how much money was owed but they needed to

340
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,740
start the project knowing they'd get insurance money later

341
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,280
but they had no authorization to do so from the department of education until

342
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,720
such time as they had

343
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,420
money that was guaranteed to them in some way

344
00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:06,080
so they went out to referendum for the amount of the school

345
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,860
but at some point got the money needed from the insurance company

346
00:29:09,860 --> 00:29:12,160
and as a result did not have to pay

347
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:12,900
one

348
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:13,880
dollar

349
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,520
uh... out of the referendum so the voters basically gave them permission

350
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:19,940
if necessary to spend this money

351
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:24,040
but once they got the money secured from the insurance carrier, they didn't have to spend

352
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:24,820
one of those dollars.

353
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,620
And, you know, again, that is the type of thing that you could really do, and hopefully

354
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:33,020
gain the trust of your voters to understand that we're not just spending your money, we're

355
00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:36,120
doing so responsibly, and when necessary, we don't spend it at all.

356
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,060
So basically, the vote served to allow them to begin construction of this brand new school,

357
00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:45,160
which I'm happy to say, and proud to have been a part of just opened this past January.

358
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:59,980
Well, okay, we've come to the end of it, so your basic message there is that while you have limited ability to promote it as a board.

359
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:23,780
As an individual, you have quite a bit of a latitude in promoting a referendum. Absolutely, and thanks so much for having me, Ray. Appreciate it. Thanks, and that's Jonathan Bush with the Bush Law Group in Middlesex County. So I think you all for listening. If you have any questions, you can email me and I'll pass them on to Jonathan. Thanks, Jonathan. Take care. Thanks, Ray. Okay, bye-bye.

360
00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:24,220
Thank you very much.