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All right. Good evening. I assume everybody's here for the air conditioning only.

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this is the montgomery township planning board. Montgomery township, somerset county and new jersey. It's our regular meeting june 23rd,
2025 at 5 p.m..

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and it is our intention to conclude this meeting no later than 8 p.m..

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right now, the time is 502. Under the provisions of the open public meetings act.

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notice of the time and place of this meeting has been posted and sent to the officially
Designated newspapers.

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roll call please. There. Yes. Here. Here. Blodgett.

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here. Hamilton. Here. Roberts. Here. Here. Taylor.

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todd. Here. Here. You see here. Sullivan. Working on this for michael.

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here. Thank you. Okay. Please join me in the salute to the flag.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america.

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and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god,
Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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okay. The first item is public participation for items not on the agenda tonight.

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do we have anybody from the public here to ask a question? Make a comment for anything not on the agenda.

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okay. Our next item is the master plan. Public hearing and adoption of resolution.

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it's the presentation of the master plan 2025,
Fourth round housing element and fair share plan dated june 13th,

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2025. Just a couple of notes. Here's how I would like to.

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can I help you? Yeah. I thought the comments were given by names.

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oh, yes. Yeah. Sure. So we can talk about it. It was not part of the. I was about to go over everything.

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oh, sorry. Okay, so here's what we're going to do. We're going to start with our presentation from our professional planner,
Michael, as well as some potential comments from our,

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our town folks. Then we're going to open it up to questions from the board.

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okay. So questions directly to michael and or lori from the board.

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then we're going to open it to public questions. So questions from the public. Not comments yet.

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just questions. Okay. Think of it as michael makes a presentation.

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you want to ask him a question. After that, we will then take public comments.

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and depending on where we're at and how many folks we have signed up,
We will limit that to a certain amount of time and we'll see where we are with sign up

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sheet. And then after that we will have a board discussion and potentially a vote
Depending on time.

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now there is a sign there are two sign up sheets going around,
One for questions and one for comments.

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is that correct? Well, there's this one right here. Okay. So let's go ahead and pass that around.

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okay. So with that we're going to start with with michael.

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michael and laurie. Why don't I just swear you in for tonight? Do you both swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful?

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yes. Thank you. Okay. Good evening. And thank you.

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tonight we're here. The purpose of this hearing is to have the planning board consider the
Adoption of the housing plan element.

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fair share plan. Addressing montgomery's fourth round obligation to provide opportunities
For affordable housing pursuant to the fair housing act of new jersey.

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who am I? I'm michael sullivan. I'm with clarke hayden in trenton,
New jersey. We're an architecture, planning and landscape architecture firm.

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I'm a licensed professional planner in new jersey. I'm certified by the american institute of certified planners. And when I need to be,
I'm a licensed landscape architect.

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isabel rodriguez, my project manager on this,
Is not here with us tonight.

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but she was instrumental in drafting of the plan. We serve as the township affordable housing planning consultant,
As well as their planning consultant for other matters.

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so that's who we are. So the purpose of the hearing,
As I said, is to consider the adoption of the 2025 fourth round housing plan element and

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fair share plan. The planning board is responsible and vested,
Has vested powers through the municipal land use law to adopt the master plan and

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elements thereof. Tonight, I'm going to walk the planning board and the public through the
Primary points of the plan.

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I will answer any questions from the planning board and the public. And then,
As the chair said,

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public comment will be opened after the direct presentation and questions.

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so in 2024, the reason we're here in 2024, the state of new jersey adopted an amended fair
Housing act.

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and that was pretty important. It abolished the council on affordable housing.

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some folks call it coa. Established an affordable housing dispute resolution program,
Which is charged with administering and reviewing plans and any disputes.

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and it significantly changed how the affordable housing matters in new jersey are
Administered.

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the affordable housing dispute resolution program is an entity which is really a
Clearinghouse for all of the housing plans.

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and it's essentially court based. The fair housing act revision amendment was really
Instituted,

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adopted and enacted in order to remove the courts from the process.

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in the third round, we all may remember we all had to file lawsuits in order to protect
Ourselves and to get to a point of resolution for our third

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round of affordable housing plans. Although that was the intent of the fair act,
It didn't work that way,

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and the court now manages the affordable housing compliance program.

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any disputes or challenges will be mediated by the program,
And judges specializing in mount laurel or affordable housing matters will issue

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orders as necessary for the process. And michael,
If I could just for for the board members and also members of the public what we're

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talking about now dates back to 1975 the mount laurel lawsuit that took place in the state
Of new jersey.

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and then decades later, as we've been seeing rules change and modified within our plan
That's available online,

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it has a great, very detailed history of all of that. So it's sometimes good to know how did we get where we're at.

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so I just wanted to lay that out. It started in 1975. So what does this mean for montgomery township and all the other 400 plus towns who are
Participating?

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you have to adopt a new fourth round housing plan element and fair share plan.

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no later than june 30th. And after you adopt it,
You have 48 hours with which to upload your plan to the program.

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and it must provide for the fulfillment of your obligation to provide affordable housing
Between july 1st,

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2025 and june 30th, 2025, which is that's the period that the fourth round covers.

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so next tuesday we will be in the fourth round,
If anybody's counting.

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so there's been some key milestones with respect to montgomery and that is that on january
16th,

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16, 2025. I sat here and we held a public information meeting to review,
Discuss and answer questions regarding the fourth round and your obligations.

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on january 27th, 2025, the township adopted a binding resolution to accept the obligations
That were created or calculated by the new jersey

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department of community affairs and stipulated to that number and stipulation also that
They would submit.

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the township would submit a fourth round plan. On january 29th of this year, the township filed a declaratory judgment action with the
Program,

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which is required a lawsuit in order to establish immunity from builders,
Remedy lawsuits during the period where you will be developing and

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adopting your plan. On march 26th, the program issued an order saying setting forth your
Fourth round obligations.

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and so we know that what the obligations are and this plan is going to address it,
As I already said,

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june 30th, 2025, that's your deadline. And then after you submit there's a period whereby
Any challenger could make a challenge to your plan

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based on how you've done it or what you've done. And the deadline for that is august 31st and then march of next year.

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is the deadline for the adoption of your implementing ordinances.

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the housing plan is a master plan element, and the spending plan is adopted by the
Governing body and is included in the housing plan element tonight.

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but the ordinance is the zoning and other ordinances that are required.

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you have some time to develop them. There was a recognition that that does take some time.

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so those are our real key milestones and upcoming events.

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michael, if I could just let the board members know because actions are also taken by the
Township committee.

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the township attorney has just dialed in to just hear the proceedings in case there's any
Questions from that aspect.

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but as you can imagine, with the time frames that michael talked about,
She's in another town in a little bit to do this exact same thing.

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so we had asked her if she could she could call in. Thank you. It's a very popular assignment lately.

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so what's in a housing plan element? Very briefly. The first section contains a lot of required census information.

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demographic information that's required by the law. The second section and the section we're going to really be focusing on tonight is how the
What the affordable housing obligations are and how we satisfy them.

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and what's new is that we have to do we have to document round by round.

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so the prior round, the third round and now the fourth round are all documented in there.

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the third section is administrative. How do you administer the affordable housing
Programs?

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in the final section is the spending plan, which talks about how you will utilize your
Affordable housing trust funds that accumulate in the trust fund account.

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so the big picture, what are your fourth run obligations? The dca issued these numbers back in october,
And your present need or rehabilitation obligation is 73.

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that's dealing with rehabilitation of existing units. The your prospective need which is envisioned.

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you can think of that as new new units that are needed or new credits is 260.

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tonight I'm really going to be focusing 99% on the perspective need because that's the
Most intricate part.

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so there are various compliance mechanisms that you can use in order to satisfy your
Obligation.

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you can zone you can extend affordability controls on existing units and other things.

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so the compliance mechanisms that we have focused on in this plan are first and foremost,
We looked at existing affordable units

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that would have expiring controls. And these are units that were created 30 years ago.

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they had 30 year deed restrictions. Those restrictions will be lapsing during the fourth
Round.

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so it's an opportunity to extend those. And there's a monetary cost to that.

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but you can extend those. And it doesn't create a new unit but it creates a new affordable
Credit.

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going into the fourth round. So we're focused on that first,
Second new inclusionary developments and inclusionary development is a

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development that's composed of both market rate and affordable units.

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and they're usually a ratio of, you know, 85% to 80%,
Market to the rest being affordable.

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and that's the theory behind that is that a developer can develop market rate housing and
That the,

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the profits from that subsidized the creation of the affordable units. It's a very common practice that's been utilized all over the state through all of the
Previous rounds.

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finally, the strategy here was to maximize the fourth round bonuses of the 260 credits
That are required.

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65 of them may be bonuses. We have maximized all of the bonus credits that you could use
Within the fourth round.

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ultimately, the plan that we have results in a surplus of 24 credits that may be carried
Into future rounds or used to satisfy a shortfall of

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anticipated mechanisms within this plan. The plan has been thought out pretty well in
Terms of the capacity of the sites to accommodate the proposed development or the

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anticipated development, but you never know. Something could come up on a site and it
Shrinks it a little bit,

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so you might lose some, or you may not be able to get as many extensions as you thought.

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so having a little bit of surplus is not a bad idea. And then there are 22 unused extensions of expiring controls.

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they cannot be used in this round, but they may be used in the fifth round.

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I can't believe I'm saying fifth round, but that's that's what you could use was.

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so let's talk about the extensions of expiring controls. We have 92 of these in the plan. Mckinley court the township is going to extend 60 of
Those because they expire in the fourth round.

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you cannot wait till the fifth round to do that. But only 38 of those will count now because you have a cap on senior units.

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okay. Mckinley commons has 35 family for sale units.

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they will be extended. Montgomery glen has 19 family for sale units and those will be
Extended.

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now there's a little bit difference. These cost money and and the fees or not the fees but
The cost of these of obtaining these.

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the minimum costs for these new deed restrictions is set by the fair housing act and
Newark.

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so mckinley court rentals will cost $1,050,000 and that would come from affordable housing
Trust funds.

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the mckinley commons and montgomery glen units,
The for sale owner units and the extensions will cost $1,080,000,

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and that total will be funded through the canvey redevelopment noncontiguous cluster,
Whereby that will not come out of the township coffers.

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I want to talk a little bit about the inclusionary development. So the first one I want to talk about is at 23 orchard,
Its existing research office building,

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associated parking. They've got a solar field. You can see the aerial up on the plan. The township has worked with the owner of that.

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they would like to subsidize their rehabilitation of the existing office building to help
Create an innovation hub.

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the way they've talked about it. There's a lot of renovation and retrofitting that needs
To go on to make it,

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to bring it up to today's standards for those kind of uses. And they came to the township and are seeking a residential development.

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there was a back and forth on this, and ultimately the township felt that 180 multifamily
Units,

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these are not senior multifamily units, could be accommodated on the site while continuing
The use for the nonresidential portion of it,

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and that would produce 36 affordable units. It's located near the intersection of orchard
Road and 206,

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right near the new jersey transit 605 bus line. So low, close to transit. And the 36 is included in the 180 total units.

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and the market rate units would be a mix of one and two bedroom rental apartments.

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yes. It's also right across the street from here,
So it's near municipal services.

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the second inclusionary development I want to talk about is that the can view facility.

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there's been a proposal and for 417 total dwelling units.

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70 of those units on site would be affordable,
And they would be integrated within the market rate units,

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which is requirement of uac. At this point, 54 extensions of the affordability controls.

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that's mckinley and mckinley commons in montgomery glen would be funded through this,
But they would be off site.

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so the the way this would be, the ordinance would work. This would be a noncontiguous cluster development that would fall under that.

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it's an alternative. This proposal, which is all residential,
Is an alternative to another proposal made by this the kennedy folks which would have been

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industrial for the most part, research and industrial. And so this is an alternative to that proposal which had a lot of associated truck traffic
With it.

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and in addition this proposal includes 125 acres that would be dedicated to the township
For public use.

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in addition to the open space that will be created within the residential area.

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the third inclusionary project mechanism that's in the plan is thrive at montgomery
Continuing care community.

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there's a total independent age restricted units of 127 maximum,
And then a minimum of 40 assisted living

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memory care units. They kind of juggle back and forth and then affordable assisted living
Units.

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there will be ten units with 20 medicaid eligible beds.

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the credits are by bedroom, so you get 20 credits out of those. And that's part of your senior cap. That's what we can't take.

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all those seniors extensions okay. This zone exists right now.

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this is part of the redevelopment. Which plan? Which was for country club meadows senior living redevelopment plan,
Which was adopted in april of this year,

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and it is also the result of a 200 2014 settlement of litigation with the owner of the
Property.

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and I think just to add to that, prior to the redevelopment plan for this,
We did engage with montgomery ems,

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which is an all volunteer organization, to talk about this. There is a concern about the increased calls from a facility like this.

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and so we talked a little bit about stonebridge and what we could do here.

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and so we increased the total number of independent living units,
Decrease the assisted living component,

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which is what has most of the calls. And so this this project will have 50% less assisted
Living

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beds than stonebridge. So that was something that was very important to the town and
Working with ems on that.

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okay. There's there's one unit that I didn't talk about and I didn't put a slide up for.

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and that's a village walk. Village walk was just there was just a a new amendment to the
Redevelopment plan that was adjacent

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to village walk. Village walk, a portion of village walk was made part of that
Redevelopment area,

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the kepner trigo redevelopment area. As a result of the negotiations for that village
Walk,

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which has a residential component, already agreed to deed restrict one additional unit
Above the 11 that they already had for affordable housing.

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it's not creating a new unit, it's just characterizing that as affordable.

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right. Taking one of their already approved market rate units and making it an affordable
Unit.

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right. So there's one I didn't do a slide for. So let's talk about the present need, which is the rehabilitation need.

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montgomery township will establish a local rehabilitation program open for eligible owner
And renter occupied units.

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and that means that somebody who is eligible for low or moderate income housing,
But may not have a deed restriction on their place,

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but they need improvements or other things like that,
That the township can fund a portion of those improvements with a minimum payment and

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that as a as a part of that agreement, they would agree to deed restrict their unit.

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okay. So that's how that works. That program would be administered by community grants
Planning and housing inc,

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ccp and commonly known. Who is your administrative agent?

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and then that would be money that would be used for that would be paid through the
Affordable housing trust fund.

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that's your that's how you address the rehab. Need doesn't require the creation of any new units.

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so next steps adoption by the planning board.

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planning board needs to adopt this plan. No later than june 30th in order to maintain
Immunity from builders remedy lawsuits.

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I can talk about buildings remedy lawsuits later endorsement by the township committee.

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the plan must be endorsed by the township committee,
And the spending plan must be adopted by the township committee. That's important because

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that this plan requires the spending of funds from the town.

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so that's a requirement. Upload to the program. Once the plan is adopted, it's uploaded by your affordable housing attorney to the
Program,

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and then it's open for public viewing. Beyond just the public viewing that you've provided
For.

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and then within 30 days, you'll have to file the plan with the new jersey office of
Planning advocacy and the somerset county planning board.

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that's what you do with any master plan element. So that's where we go with that.

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I have a few extra points, guiding principles really,
That I think are helpful to understand where the plan came out of and what what drove us

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access to public of transportation. It was a priority and a goal for us in round three,
So you'll see a lot of that infill development that has taken place along

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206 along the new jersey transit route 605 bus line,
And we carried that guiding principle into this planned development.

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so that 23 orchard road project, which is at a bus stop,
It kind of checked that box of what we were trying to achieve

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trying to limit development in greenfields. So what areas are already redeveloped that,
That that may need to be redeveloped?

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and trying to stay out of other areas that were green. Green. Michael already mentioned maximizing those bonus credits because the state sets a
Limit on how many and bonus credits come in the form of

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if you're redeveloping on a property that's already been developed it's a half a credit.

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yeah. So so there's a they have a structure. It used to be in the third round that if you
Did rental family housing,

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you got a one for one bonus on that. That's gone. Now in redevelopment, if you repurpose a place that has already been developed for non
Residential use,

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then you get a half credit bonus for that. If you extend controls those extensions of
Controls,

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get a one for one bonus if it's a rental. So the the mckinley commons get a one for one
Bonus on that.

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and so utilizing extension of expiring controls,
This was our first round that we were able to do that.

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so we set that as michael had said as a high priority prior rounds. We we did not have that ability because they were not expiring.

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that 30 year deed restriction was not expiring 100% affordable developments.

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so in this plan, we do not have any 100% affordable developments,
But we do still have them from our prior round.

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and one is under construction on this property. So 100% affordable developments while we were not doing any in this round.

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we do have them in town, and I'd like to share a little bit about them.

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they mean that there are no new market rate units associated with those.

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so the two developments that we have, we have a 100% 71 bedroom age restricted development
Happening here with the in partnership with the developer

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rpm. Those projects need a lot of assistance in financial assistance because there's no
Market rate units that are subsidizing them.

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so the land is given there's infrastructure improvements that,
You know, assistance money from our housing trust.

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and then the biggest one is the low income federal low income housing tax credit.

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without that, they they would not be able to to do a project like that.

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the other 100% affordable housing development,
Which is is unique because it's a hybrid.

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but we we we like to think creatively here in montgomery. Is the 87 units that are at hartwick and village drive apartments at what is it crossing
Sheri montgomery crossing.

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so a portion of that was part of an inclusionary development. So some of those units were required as part of montgomery crossing townhouse development.

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but at the time, we asked the developer, because of its somewhat close proximity to public
Public transportation and walkability to jobs and

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shopping, could they do additional units? So I so I believe the number is something like
60 of the 86

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units could technically be considered a 100% job.

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so the developer gave the land. The developer had the requirement to assist with a portion
That met with the townhouse requirement.

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but the rest of those units there was assistance from the township. So I guess overall, to understand that while 100% percent.

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projects are great that they don't bring market rate and those additional development.

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there is a cost. There's a cost to to the township. So we have to be just mindful of that. See, one of the things we wanted to talk a little
Bit about what this plan is and what

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this plan isn't. To have some clarification. The plan has concept plans in it.

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it's kind of setting forth the parameters of what we what we intend to do,
But it does not give.

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the zoning is not being implemented tonight that those those zoning regulations will be
Drafted and public hearings in the future will be held.

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we have, I think michael said about a year to do to do that.

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and that will take place at the township committee level and then site plan approval.

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that happens before your board, as you well know. And so those plans will be more carefully crafted.

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certainly with any public comment here and any,
Any members of the public that want to come into the planning department and offer some

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comments on the draft site plans that would also be considered.

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so I think we wanted to just let people know the action that happens with this plan.

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and then it's there's subsequent actions that need to be taken.

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and I think that was some of the talking points I just wanted to to share in terms of
Guiding principles.

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so that ends my presentation. Welcome. Any questions from the board of the public?

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well, I do have one question. I just want do I have to say my name?

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I'm al battle. The 54. I'm reading from my notes so the can view site.

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you mentioned that there were going to be 417 units,
70 affordable.

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54 of the units are there was some credit given based on montgomery mckinley mckinlay
Court,

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were you mentioning those there in terms of the credit given for them?

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would they be recognized twice for credit? No no no. Go ahead. Let me let me explain that a little.

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it's a pretty unique approach. Okay. Essentially ken view will be doing 15% set

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aside, and we say set aside. That means 50% 70 units.

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the additional 54 are the existing units that are already there which have expiring
Controls in the fourth round.

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we're including them within that because they will be paying for those extensions.

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they will be paying the funds for that. They will not come out of the trust fund,
The developers paying it.

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so it really turns their set aside from 15, a little over 15% to 26%.

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so it's it's a substantial it's a substantial set aside when you look at it in the terms
Of the overall set aside for can view.

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it's rare to get a 26% set aside. Just doesn't happen. 20%. That's that's usually as high as you can get for sure.

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so I had a question. Actually, to continue on to to laurie's last point about kind of what
We're doing here tonight.

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just to clarify for myself and maybe other board members,
Maybe the public, what we're doing here tonight and and it's it's.

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so from laurie's last point, you said that this is a plan that is being put forth as a
Requirement by the deadline of

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june 30th, right? So I just put a mental note. Can you clarify what that requirement is? The specific requirement that is,
Is put upon towns.

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maybe you should do that now. Okay. And then I'll continue on. Yeah. So the requirement in
The fair housing act set the deadline of june 30th for the fifth fourth round and every

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subsequent round. They're envisioning this to to carry forth interminably.

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so that that's part of the fair housing act. Right. That deadline of june 30th is a requirement for towns to file and be part of the program.

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and it means that what that means is. But you but you said something about so the the
Indemnity against the

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builders. Yes, please. Can you specify that? Yeah. So, so when you filed your jw action and you stipulated to the number of affordable units
That you would plan for,

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you received and the court accepted it, you got an order giving you immunity through june
30th.

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okay. If you do not adopt this plan by june 30th,
Then you will be at risk for a builder's remedy lawsuit and a builder's remedy lawsuit.

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in case we want to talk about that. Builder's remedy lawsuit is where you don't provide
For the zoning or the plan to address your affordable housing obligation.

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and a developer shows up and he's and they say,
Hey, listen, you haven't done anything.

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00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:12,920
here's my plan for a thousand units, and I can solve your whole plan.

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and you'll argue with them in court and you'll do other things,
But ultimately they're going to get to build something and,

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and, and you really lose control of your ability to zone and plan at that point.

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so yeah, that's I think that's the really important point for me to understand is that
This is a plan to provide the township

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immunity against a lawsuit by a builder. Correct.

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00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:44,040
right. But but this specific plan to laura's last point does not approve any of these
Sites.

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it does not say that the township agrees, because the zoning in these sites will need to
Change.

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and that will have to happen at a subsequent later hearing,
Is that correct?

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yes. Yes, yes. So, so this does not give any approval at all for,
For the, the sites in this place.

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so to take eisenhower's adage plans are worthless,
But planning is everything, right?

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that's correct. Right. So so these plans are worthless in a sense,
But they're everything because we have to have a plan by

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june 30th. That's right. Is that right? You have to have it to protect yourselves from a
Builder's remedy lawsuit.

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right. The other thing is that to your point about the ordinances,
In order to do this plan,

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we had to have a a legitimate sense of what these sites could accommodate in terms of the
Inclusionary development.

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we had to have a legitimate sense that these controls were expiring and all the
Mechanisms,

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we couldn't just say, we're going to do it. It had to be legitimate. And that's why we
Have site suitability analysis in here and the deed restrictions that are expiring.

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to your point about the ordinances. Those ordinances will be developed post plan.

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and as they're developed, they will be introduced by the governing body. They would come back here for consistency review.

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and when the consistency review happens, you look at your newly adopted housing plan
Element and you say,

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oh yeah, they said, ken, you will get 4 in 17 units,
417 units. That looks right. And you can make any comments back that you want on that.

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but that's the role that the planning board would play. Or we could say it doesn't make sense. Then totally.

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we could. You could totally say that in bringing up builder's remedy.

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00:33:32,670 --> 00:33:32,670
it's, it's it's something to consider because under what I would consider like a do
Nothing scenario.

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so we don't we don't have a housing plan. We know that montgomery is a desirable place to
Live.

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we know that there's housing demand, and we know that we have top schools in the state.

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00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:49,750
so we know that there would be developers eager to file a builders remedy lawsuit.

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suit. One, two. We could. We could have many with that tract.

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you are solely subject to inclusionary development. So we're not doing extension of controls, which produces no new units.

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00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:12,270
we're not doing, you know, extension of senior units. And so you're really looking at that 260 number,
Multiplying it by four market rate units,

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five five market rate. And so you're talking about a totally different build out in the
Township than what we're

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proposing. So I didn't run the numbers for the five. I ran the numbers for the four. But we're talking about a thousand,
Over a thousand market rate units versus the under the 500 that we

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00:34:42,990 --> 00:34:42,990
have in this plan right now. And and, and 260 affordable units versus we have less than
That in this plan because of the bonus credits and the

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00:34:52,910 --> 00:34:52,910
extension of controls. So the overall impact of not doing anything in terms of public
School children or strain on infrastructure

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00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:02,900
is is magnified multiple times. If we did nothing because we know that we will be sued
Because we are a desirable place to

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00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:15,900
be. Yeah, there are some communities that don't worry about this. You're not one of them. Yeah, we have to worry about that.

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00:35:22,780 --> 00:35:22,780
other questions from the board for michael. Lori.

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00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:29,260
and just just one real quick question. The rehabilitation that you covered,
Just very briefly.

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00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:34,780
yeah. Those are for non deed restricted units today.

293
00:35:39,980 --> 00:35:39,980
correct. Correct. Okay. I mean, I hope that's I don't want to hijack the whole floor,
But I do want to have some specific questions

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about the can view property specifically I think in incorporation into this plan,
Which we've already said the plan is not is not approval for that.

295
00:35:58,130 --> 00:35:58,130
but I kind of would like but once you kind of suggest something,
It kind of becomes more of a reality,

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00:36:06,250 --> 00:36:06,250
which is, is is is is a concern, right? I, I guess I wonder what why the kennedy property
Was

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00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:17,010
considered at, at such a magnitude when, you know,
For instance, these other particularly in terms of

298
00:36:27,250 --> 00:36:27,250
the public transportation around the area, the character of the area is significantly
Different than characters of other

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00:36:37,210 --> 00:36:40,890
of another area, for instance, the 23 orchard property. I mean, it seems to me that, you know, right now that zoning does not allow housing,
You know,

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00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:45,450
at all. At all. I believe it's a it's commercial a highway commercial property.

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00:36:51,970 --> 00:36:55,010
right. Maybe I'm not specifically right about that. It is. Right. So it has no housing on it or not,
But we're kind of taking it for granted in some,

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00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:04,490
in some ways that there's going to be 180 units on that. On which 36 are applied to affordable housing.

303
00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:09,090
that seems a little bit excessive to me from the standpoint that that seems like a much
More logical place

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to fulfill our obligation, our state mandated obligation for affordable housing.

305
00:37:24,370 --> 00:37:24,370
so that can be you can view approach to the township.

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00:37:28,690 --> 00:37:28,690
last year maybe sometime and said we're we're moving out of montgomery.

307
00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:33,770
we're relocating all of our offices to a smaller footprint in summit.

308
00:37:38,930 --> 00:37:38,930
and so the last of our employees, which there aren't that many now after covid,
Really none came back.

309
00:37:47,290 --> 00:37:50,960
and the last will be out in 2026 and we're going to be marketing it. When we met with them, we said we would like a user in-kind.

310
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,400
that's you know, and they marketed it as such. They hired cbre, which is a national, one of the national top firms for,
For commercial real estate and they,

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00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:07,840
they the, the interested buyer, they didn't they didn't have any buyers at that sort of
In-kind swap of like a pharmaceutical company

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00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:17,640
or whatever. And so the company came in and said,
We have a couple of options.

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00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:22,760
we have the bi-rite plan, which is essentially what does the current zoning permit me to
Do?

314
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:29,760
we don't have the option to rezone it, farming or open space.

315
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:38,120
that would be a taking of the land. So you're sort of by,
Right. What could they do? And that is that light industrial flex space that michael talked about
Earlier with the truck traffic.

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00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,080
so we ran some numbers on truck traffic for that. And and so we know that the trucks that exist on our roads right now,
We already have complaints.

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00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:56,760
so adding I think was it 400 and something trucks at a minimum to that area,
400 something trucks per day,

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00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:04,640
420 per day, 420 per day. So that was so we we we said what other plans do you have?

319
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:14,400
and so there was a residential plan and that was for a little over 600 units.

320
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:20,400
so we said, well, we'll get back to you. So then we're working on this plan to back in.

321
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:25,560
what would we need there? And so we don't need 600 units there to get where we need to be.

322
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,760
and so that's where we sort of arrived and how it sort of happened. And I was talking to someone today about the property and we were you know,
I remembered I've been in montgomery a while now,

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00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:41,880
and I remember when j and j was operating where there were a lot of people coming in and
Out of the site,

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00:39:48,350 --> 00:39:48,350
and that we would get a lot of complaints about the the traffic of those.

325
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:52,790
a lot of them worked in pennsylvania. So they went,
You know, west of the mountain.

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00:39:56,910 --> 00:39:56,910
so, you know, whether it's a large scale office,
Light industrial with trucks, you know, it's it's a site.

327
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:04,310
but the law allows the property owner to have the development potential.

328
00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:10,670
and so to your point of how did we arrive? Something is happening with this,
The property,

329
00:40:15,870 --> 00:40:15,870
they have the right to do something. And so is it going to be something that would bring
In truck traffic,

330
00:40:22,350 --> 00:40:22,350
or would it be something that would help us meet our state requirement at a level that is
Not in exceedance of what we what

331
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:32,270
we would need? I'm going to go ahead. I was going to say,
And you mentioned it before, but I think it it it's worth mentioning

332
00:40:42,070 --> 00:40:42,070
again what they are going to do potentially if they build this for the credits for our
Existing units,

333
00:40:50,740 --> 00:40:50,740
because that that's that's a big addition of credits that we're going to get for the deed
Restrictions that are coming up.

334
00:40:57,580 --> 00:40:57,580
correct. Right. They'll be making a payment towards those extension of controls elsewhere
In town.

335
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:04,500
they'll be dedicating 125 acres to the township.

336
00:41:09,820 --> 00:41:09,820
yeah. There are other benefits. Yeah. Can you speak a little more on the extension of
Controls?

337
00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:17,420
I find that there is a little bit of confusion with people. Can you reiterate it a little bit that these are,
You know, not being new built and that the owners of,

338
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:25,300
well, who can be would be paying for the township doesn't have to pay for it.

339
00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:29,460
so if you can, you know, elaborate a little more on on that.

340
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:34,620
on what what is the question. The, the fact that these would can you would be paying for
Or can we or the owners would be paying for the extension of the

341
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,620
mckinley, because that somehow is not getting through. Or that's the questions I've heard from everyone is to,
You know, the money.

342
00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:52,260
the state does require that there's a payment made to extend the controls.

343
00:41:58,860 --> 00:42:01,780
and so we have an affordable housing trust fund. It's generated by development that is not providing affordable housing,
Which because a lot of the development that you see happening in montgomery right now

344
00:42:11,740 --> 00:42:11,740
is part of our round three. It's not generating as much money.

345
00:42:15,940 --> 00:42:15,940
so the affordable housing trust can cover some of the extension of controls,
But not all of the extension.

346
00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:23,060
and so that's the negotiation that happened between the township and and the contract
Purchaser for the can view property so that they would their whole

347
00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:32,660
obligation would not be developed on site. And part of their obligation will be done
Through extension of controls.

348
00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:39,650
so further kind of reducing that overall number that they they would have done right.

349
00:42:46,290 --> 00:42:46,290
I had one question to the can you cite once it's redeveloped for that residential permit,
It would be residential only.

350
00:42:55,410 --> 00:42:55,410
it wouldn't be office space or a portion of it be one or the other.

351
00:42:59,970 --> 00:42:59,970
right. It's 100% residential, 100% residential,
But varying types.

352
00:43:05,330 --> 00:43:05,330
I mean, they've got when they've described the proposal,
There's a variety of types of, of dwelling prototypes say that.

353
00:43:13,730 --> 00:43:13,730
okay. I have a question. It may be a question for the attorneys,
But can you elaborate?

354
00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:21,490
if you know, if the attorneys know about the towns that have been subject to builder's
Remedies or any other court enforced remedies?

355
00:43:31,450 --> 00:43:31,450
well, I can say that my experience as planning a planning firm and we've this is we've
Done.

356
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,440
this is one of 30 plans we've done this year. So and we've been the planners for myriad towns,
Both as the planner, the affordable housing planner,

357
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:48,160
but also as special court masters advising the courts on these things.

358
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:53,040
we can talk about towns that have lost not just their immunity.

359
00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:58,680
they've lost the jurisdiction over their planning board.

360
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:03,120
there are towns where the court has said any of these,
Any of these proposals come in.

361
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:08,160
they have to build a residential site improvement standards. You can't add any cost
Generative elements to these,

362
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:13,800
like nice plants or things like this. And by the way,
You don't even get to review it.

363
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:18,200
there's somebody special who's going to review it,
And that's all they're going to be looking at. So all the negotiation that's done at the

364
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:24,760
planning board to massage these to make them fit better in the community,
That gets taken away from you.

365
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:31,400
and and that's the last part of it. The first part of it is they come in and they're going
To do a lot more units than you plan for,

366
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:38,680
and you're going to have to do it. There's nothing that's going to stop the court from
Allowing a developer to come in and at some

367
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:48,600
level do it now. They'll come in big, they'll come in bigger than they need to because
They know they might get it reduced,

368
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,440
but ultimately it doesn't end well. And you lose. You lose control of your zoning. You lose control over your review powers.

369
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,000
I mean, these are the worst case. The worst case. There's some really there's been some bad towns out there that have really not complied,
And it's been very costly.

370
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:10,440
I mean, the, the the lawyers and the planners and the engineers and everybody they have
Just to to fight with these guys and negotiate.

371
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:17,520
it is insane how much it costs. So it almost significant implications,
Negative implications to not filing a plan.

372
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:25,840
the way you're explaining it, it almost seems like there might be developers waiting for
Towns to not comply so that they can swoop in and try to enforce a the remedy.

373
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:34,710
do any of the the names of the towns? Just let me just say that they are like the minute
That this came out.

374
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:40,950
I mean, in all of our towns, we've gotten. Oh,
By the way, I hear you're doing an affordable housing.

375
00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:48,470
we want to be part of it. Here's our plan. Is it? And it's like blood in the water. And do any of the names of those towns come to mind if
You can share?

376
00:45:57,470 --> 00:45:57,470
I don't think it's any secret that south brunswick had their immunity pulled and lost
Control of their planning board.

377
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:03,910
sorry. South brunswick, south brunswick. Englewood cliffs,
Let's go ahead.

378
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:12,590
and michael, you said this is worst case scenario. Best case scenario is we could get double or more number of units anyway.

379
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:18,710
potentially correct. Okay. Can you can you talk about I don't know if you covered the
Timeline of the fourth round and how

380
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:28,550
long this fourth round window occurs. I mean,
This has been over the course of 25, 30 years,

381
00:46:37,350 --> 00:46:40,350
the three rounds, right? Oh, no. No, it goes for 50 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the 75 was mount laurel one.

382
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:42,950
so. Right in 1975, mount laurel one, the court said mount laurel,
You're being discriminatory.

383
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:49,030
you need to have housing in 19. And then nobody did anything.

384
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:53,670
the towns just said, okay, whatever. In 1983 was mount laurel two.

385
00:46:57,950 --> 00:46:57,950
that's when it got teeth. And then the first round was after 1985.

386
00:47:02,590 --> 00:47:02,590
I guess my specific question is what this is the plan that's due by by a plan that's due
By june 30th.

387
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:14,230
but what is the time horizon which the plan has to be implemented. So so so here's here's what happens june 30th.

388
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:21,030
let's assume that the plan is filed july 1st. The fourth round starts goes to 2035 june 30th 2035 2035.

389
00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:28,550
you will be developing the ordinances by next march so that there's built development
Rights for your inclusionary development.

390
00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:36,260
you'll be doing your rehabilitation program,
Getting that geared up.

391
00:47:40,620 --> 00:47:40,620
you will be planning for the extension of controls.

392
00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:45,300
you'll be doing all these things, and you'll be collecting funds through your trust fund
That will start.

393
00:47:50,140 --> 00:47:50,140
but you will have to monitor this. And if for some reason,
These sites that we have in the plan haven't progressed in five years,

394
00:47:57,340 --> 00:47:57,340
you're going to have to replace them. So you provide the you provide the platform,
You provide the ability and the development rights,

395
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:06,180
the entitlements, so that folks can developers can build these things.

396
00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:10,380
but if they're not progressing for some reason,
You'll have to reexamine those and determine whether or not the site was suitable for that

397
00:48:16,060 --> 00:48:18,580
or whether it can accommodate it. And things happen. Right? So there's a monitoring that goes on throughout the,
The, the rounds.

398
00:48:24,580 --> 00:48:24,580
and you've been doing that for the third round. The monitoring has been going on. We
Monitor units.

399
00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:32,730
what's been built? Did it get a ceo? When was the ceo? You want to know when the ceo was. Because that's when the development controls go on. The
Affordability controls.

400
00:48:38,770 --> 00:48:38,770
so they'll be monitoring throughout this. And if at some point one of these sites is not
Reasonable or one of these mechanisms doesn't work,

401
00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:46,970
you'll have to replace it. Will they have to be started within that ten year period or.

402
00:48:53,210 --> 00:48:53,210
yes. They know this is this, this they want to see.

403
00:48:58,210 --> 00:49:01,370
they anticipate that everything is built within the third round. Built within the fourth round. So built within,
Completed within the fourth round.

404
00:49:05,330 --> 00:49:05,330
that's ten years. Completed by 2035. Yes. Right.

405
00:49:12,810 --> 00:49:12,810
so when is the next? The next threshold? I think you mentioned about nine months.

406
00:49:17,050 --> 00:49:19,650
you said you had to have. Yeah. What was the nine months? Nine months. So a march 15th of next year. All of the ordinances that are necessary to
Implement the plan must be adopted.

407
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:32,490
so it gives you time to work through the details of those. And if those are not adopted, then do we lose the indemnification for the builder's
Remedy?

408
00:49:37,050 --> 00:49:41,010
you would be at risk of losing immunity to builders remedy lawsuits. Yes. So in terms of the the number you didn't speak about all about the

409
00:49:50,650 --> 00:49:53,930
township's assessment of. Is that a fair number or not? I assume I assume you went through that process and you think that this is a fair number.

410
00:49:57,850 --> 00:50:01,010
you have no questions about their calculations? Yes. So michael can talk a little bit about that.

411
00:50:03,450 --> 00:50:03,450
but before before he did the analysis on that.

412
00:50:07,610 --> 00:50:09,850
I did get an update from the township attorney. So of the 431 towns that are participating in the state's process,
159 calculated their own number,

413
00:50:18,530 --> 00:50:18,530
meaning, they said to the state, we think our number is lower than your number.

414
00:50:23,490 --> 00:50:23,490
and so those 159 challenge towns aren't challenging that there is a requirement.

415
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:29,480
they are challenging just that the number that the state set forth was was too high.

416
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:34,800
so they are all still doing that. As mike will talk a little bit about the number that we
Did on our own to assess whether to challenge the number.

417
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:45,360
our review didn't provide kind of a meaningful difference between the state number and any
Number that we could potentially challenge.

418
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:52,320
and every town that did, did challenge the state got challenged by then,
The new jersey builders association and usually the fair housing center share

419
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:02,160
center. So that's where there's a kind of a meeting of the minds between the state and
Those two parties that challenged the town.

420
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:09,920
and from what I've been told by our township attorney,
From what she has seen, less than ten towns had their number approved and that most were

421
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:17,880
only 4% less than the state number. So in terms of that that dialog.

422
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:24,400
we did do that exercise to see what could we challenge.

423
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:28,640
and so I guess the outcome really, of all of that time that the towns that did is that it
Really didn't change much.

424
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:36,400
and that's and that's my experience too, because we have had towns who did challenge the
Number,

425
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:41,440
and we went through the process where you had to appear before a judge and explain,
And they had a report,

426
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:49,160
you did a report and fair share housing center was there.

427
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,320
and they and they well, they do what they do. They don't want any lower numbers. The builders are there.

428
00:51:59,160 --> 00:51:59,160
they don't want any lower numbers. And even to the extent that I think personally,
That they didn't comply with the law in there,

429
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:07,720
saying that our numbers wouldn't comply on the lower towns,
They didn't provide any evidence of it,

430
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:12,240
and the court accepted their non evidence to the challenge.

431
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:16,720
so these little incremental changes were maybe negotiated,
But it was not meaningful.

432
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:26,670
the only town. The only town. I had one town. So clark came and hence built a statewide model.

433
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:29,390
we built the same model that the dca built, but we used slightly different factors that
The law permits.

434
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:34,470
and in one town we we did get a roughly 10%,
9% reduction.

435
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:44,950
but we only got it because the court master or the special adjudicator reviewed our model
When we had a little white paper with it.

436
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:52,950
we reviewed our model and said, you comply with the state law. You're the only firm in the
State that did a statewide model.

437
00:52:59,150 --> 00:52:59,150
and they gave them that, but they wouldn't then further adjust it downward based on lack
Of developable land.

438
00:53:05,790 --> 00:53:09,630
the lack of developable land was the only factor you could use. And when you look around montgomery and you say,
Well, look at all this land, blah, blah, blah, it only considered land in pa three and

439
00:53:16,510 --> 00:53:16,510
less. It didn't consider any pa for land. So if you see things out there that wasn't in
It.

440
00:53:22,340 --> 00:53:22,340
so I think that was the best deal we got. And it was only because they relied on our
Model,

441
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:27,500
and our model demonstrated that there was a significant difference.

442
00:53:32,260 --> 00:53:32,260
so your model for round four for us? Yes. The model for you didn't show a dramatic
Difference at all.

443
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:39,700
it was a very minor difference. And my experience from negotiating with this is that if we
Had walked in in montgomery with our model,

444
00:53:48,820 --> 00:53:48,820
they might have given us that little bit, but they wouldn't have given us any more. Right.
You know,

445
00:53:53,340 --> 00:53:53,340
they wouldn't give you the cherry on top. I noticed that you referred to 100% low cost
Housing

446
00:54:03,420 --> 00:54:03,420
in the third round. Did you consider doing that in the fourth round?

447
00:54:08,740 --> 00:54:08,740
and if we were to develop a 100% affordable housing development in the fourth round.

448
00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:18,420
what would be the impact on some place like? Can view of our having dealt with that
Problem?

449
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:24,900
I would I would add, in addition to what I had talked about earlier in terms of the
Financial commitment the township would need to make.

450
00:54:32,740 --> 00:54:32,740
that was another conversation that we had had with ems,
And the response that they also have had to some of the to the one building that we have

451
00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:42,220
so far. And so that was definitely a consideration that we have two projects now.

452
00:54:48,820 --> 00:54:48,820
and that, you know, maybe we take a break from,
From the 100% buildings just to explore other opportunities,

453
00:54:58,020 --> 00:54:58,020
because we had this opportunity for extension of controls,
Which we have never had before.

454
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:03,500
so we really wanted to put efforts, all our efforts towards that as being our number one.

455
00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:08,900
how do we extend those controls, especially on the seniors units,
Because we want to make sure that we keep as much affordability in montgomery for seniors

456
00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:17,130
as possible. And so that's I guess that's an answer.

457
00:55:22,530 --> 00:55:22,530
so a 100% affordable project is pretty cost prohibitive for the township.

458
00:55:30,570 --> 00:55:30,570
yes. We would not have any money for it in this round,
Given that we're putting the money that we do have towards the extension of controls.

459
00:55:37,850 --> 00:55:37,850
right. Okay. I just have. Oh. Go ahead. I just have another question that was asked by a
Resident.

460
00:55:46,690 --> 00:55:46,690
I want to bring up the bi-rite. So if can you if we are not doing housing,
Which obviously still far out there and can view the new owners want

461
00:55:56,690 --> 00:55:56,690
to do the light manufacturing. That's the question the resident wanted to.

462
00:56:01,730 --> 00:56:01,730
you had mentioned that it is about 420 trucks a day for all the bays that they would have,

463
00:56:07,530 --> 00:56:10,170
and we can't say anything because that's why. Right. They have that. Is that something that you can explain?

464
00:56:13,890 --> 00:56:13,890
right? They were proposing one point 6,000,000ft² of flex industrial space.

465
00:56:19,210 --> 00:56:19,210
and when we kind of took a look at what that would be with traffic implications.

466
00:56:24,890 --> 00:56:24,890
24 hour trip generation, it would be 402 trucks in and out,
400 to a day.

467
00:56:30,930 --> 00:56:30,930
okay. Any other questions from the board?

468
00:56:40,770 --> 00:56:40,770
okay. Do we have a list of folks that have questions from the public?

469
00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:48,170
penny. Paraiso. Sign myself up first. Hold on,
Hold on one second.

470
00:56:55,210 --> 00:56:55,210
miss paraiso, we need to swear you in. Do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening?

471
00:57:01,450 --> 00:57:01,450
we'll be truthful. Yes. And, lori, we have the addresses for all these speakers.

472
00:57:06,450 --> 00:57:06,450
correct. Lori. Lori, do we have everybody's address on there?

473
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:13,480
no, we do not. All right, miss paris. So do you feel comfortable giving us your address or
You okay?

474
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:20,000
I live at 404 stillman road. Okay. I, I grew up here.

475
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,480
I've lived here all my life. Moved away for a bit. Came back. I remember ken before it was even jay and jay.

476
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:32,560
anyway question. I have a couple of questions.

477
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:36,840
the affordable housing piece, and I'm not sure if my math is right.

478
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:40,920
penny, we're just going. Ma'am, can you pull the microphone towards you? Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Penny. You have to literally talk into it.

479
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:49,920
is that better? There you go. I just want to check and make sure my math is okay.

480
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:55,640
you said you have to provide 260 units, 260 credits,
260 credits.

481
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:02,560
so the extendable units that you mentioned are a 1 to 1 credit.

482
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:07,440
not all of them. The rentals that's a 1 to 1 credit.

483
00:58:12,670 --> 00:58:12,670
okay. That's where my math is off. Because I'm doing math on the fly and I'm like,
You're only missing,

484
00:58:17,830 --> 00:58:17,830
like, 16 units, but they're not all one to ones.

485
00:58:23,230 --> 00:58:23,230
I also noticed you didn't mention pike run. Are there any units in pike run that have
Extensions available on them?

486
00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:31,510
yes. So pike run has 210 affordable units, right?

487
00:58:36,350 --> 00:58:39,150
they will be expiring over that period of time. We've reached like within these ten years of the fourth round.

488
00:58:42,510 --> 00:58:44,830
okay. But they're not included in this presentation. We reached out to the property owner, and they were not able to agree to extend the
Controls.

489
00:58:52,190 --> 00:58:52,190
awesome. Fantastic. And then my other question is,
Obviously, we cannot address the

490
00:59:02,110 --> 00:59:02,110
location of some of the ideas here. But my understanding is that generally when builders
Come in,

491
00:59:09,550 --> 00:59:09,550
they go at like a 20% rate, 80 to 20, because the can view presentation is at 16% of
Affordable to market rate units.

492
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:19,550
so so first first question. 15% for rentals,
20% for ownership.

493
00:59:25,310 --> 00:59:25,310
and if you zone and you don't have a negotiated plan,
Then the way it would be zoned is it would require 15%.

494
00:59:34,030 --> 00:59:34,030
if they are rentals, 20% of their owner occupied for sale units.

495
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:38,750
okay. In the case of ken view, they're doing around 616% on site.

496
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:44,630
but because you add in the 54, they're now up at 26%.

497
00:59:50,110 --> 00:59:50,110
okay. Roughly. Hence I say check my math. Other question is and somebody up here is asking
About can you came into the process.

498
00:59:59,630 --> 00:59:59,630
just curious if anybody ever reached out to,
Say, research park as a potential area of putting in additional apartments.

499
01:00:08,220 --> 01:00:10,740
there's not a lot of building use over there. And it is close to public transport, as you mentioned.

500
01:00:13,580 --> 01:00:13,580
yes. And if that's been explored, by the way,
We we did meet with the owner of wall street,

501
01:00:20,740 --> 01:00:20,740
a research park. It's in the airport hazard area.

502
01:00:24,780 --> 01:00:24,780
so it does restrict the amount. There are small areas on the fringes of that development
That are outside.

503
01:00:33,740 --> 01:00:33,740
and they they are interested in improving the property as a as a non residential property.

504
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:45,700
but they were not interested in having housing there. And we we talked to them in round three, round four and that,
That we can't force them to do it.

505
01:00:53,660 --> 01:00:56,020
and just, just to be clear about an air hazard. It's not an air hazard but air safety zone. The minimum lot size for for a home in that
Area is three acres by statute.

506
01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:05,130
yeah. Over by me. It's five and ten acres. Zoning.

507
01:01:09,730 --> 01:01:09,730
but. But for the purposes of affordable housing,
We're not building. Right? So. Yeah, exactly.

508
01:01:13,890 --> 01:01:13,890
we're building multifamily housing, so you're restricted. You can't do it by statute.
Okay.

509
01:01:18,810 --> 01:01:18,810
so most of my other questions were answered already.

510
01:01:23,450 --> 01:01:23,450
but I did have one question. And it does pertain to the ken view properties.

511
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:29,450
and you're talking about obviously, jay and jay can do whatever they want with their
Property and sell it to whomever warehouse housing,

512
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:37,250
whichever. Where does csx come into this conversation for that flat road level road
Crossing?

513
01:01:46,610 --> 01:01:46,610
does that become part of any of the equation at this level of conversation,
Or does that then kind of come down to the.

514
01:01:56,810 --> 01:01:56,810
detailed conversation of property use. So 601 is the county road.

515
01:02:02,370 --> 01:02:06,130
so the county is part of that conversation as well. And I know that on their plans, they the county has plans for a left turn lane onto
Grandview and then there will be other intersection improvements

516
01:02:16,010 --> 01:02:19,450
needed no matter what happens on that property. On the property. So and then just going back to when you were doing the whole can be
Affordable housing,

517
01:02:27,650 --> 01:02:27,650
new units versus potential manufacturing when you're talking about the truck traffic,
Are we talking about warehouses?

518
01:02:35,610 --> 01:02:35,610
it's flex industrial space. So it is multiple users with different truck bays.

519
01:02:43,690 --> 01:02:43,690
so not necessarily an amazon warehouse, but not excluding it.

520
01:02:50,050 --> 01:02:50,050
but our zoning does not permit a one user warehouse like an amazon.

521
01:02:56,810 --> 01:03:00,130
that's not permitted. But it does permit multi use. Right. But but those late industrial users, they manufacture things.

522
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:04,160
they're little manufacturing. And so they have to manufacture. So they have to bring in
Materials and then they're shipping out goods.

523
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,200
so I have light manufacturing literally across the street from me. So and they're very quiet. And, and I don't want to limit the number of questions.

524
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,440
but I will ask that we want to make sure we give people a chance. And also if you are just going to ask the same question,
Please just be understanding of time.

525
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:28,840
absolutely. For the folks to come up. The rest of them,
You'll see me at zoning meetings and planning board meetings if I see me a lot.

526
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:36,240
thank you so much. Sorry, I don't know my harold wasserman.

527
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:49,960
name is harold wasserman. I've lived in this town probably 40 years.

528
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:55,680
sir, we need. Sir, we need to this, sir. Hold on one,
Sir, we need to swear you in.

529
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:01,320
so, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful.

530
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:05,960
yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay. So questions. So my question is,
Are are you all comfortable with this,

531
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:16,360
with this fourth round and the way they kind of force you into things.

532
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:22,520
are you are you comfortable. Do you think this is right?

533
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:29,080
tell the truth. Well, I think you you will be you'll be here for the board discussion
After everybody's questions and

534
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:39,040
comments. So here's my next question. There is a group of 27 municipalities that's suing
The state of new jersey to address the unfairness of the fourth round

535
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:48,520
affordable housing law. This is a group if you are uncomfortable with this.

536
01:04:56,590 --> 01:04:56,590
why? You know, it seems to me that this guy is railroading you,
You know, into this thing right at the.

537
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:04,710
okay. Is there. Is there a question, sir? So do you plan to join this group?

538
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:12,630
that's not for tonight's discussion. So. We we are here to talk about the

539
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:22,390
plan. Okay. Thank you. Lori. Who's next? Next.

540
01:05:30,790 --> 01:05:30,790
sorry, I at the risk. I'm over speaking. But to honor the man's question,
Which I think is a good one.

541
01:05:40,070 --> 01:05:40,070
do we have the authority to make a statement like that?

542
01:05:44,590 --> 01:05:47,870
because I don't think that's in the planning board's purview. Just to be clear. That is a township question.

543
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:50,870
and I mean, I and that's and and I would agree and I just want to remind everybody,
We are not elected officials up here.

544
01:05:59,580 --> 01:05:59,580
right. So but we're not trying to absolve anything,
But it's right.

545
01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:04,620
I mean, the the just to be clear, nancy.

546
01:06:15,220 --> 01:06:19,220
I'm a township resident for 25 years. Ma'am. Before you continue. We have your last name. Toledo. Could you spell that?

547
01:06:23,300 --> 01:06:23,300
c a s t e l I n o. Thank you. And do you feel comfortable giving us your address?

548
01:06:31,740 --> 01:06:31,740
yes. 37 fairview road. All right, ma'am, and then we need to swear you in.

549
01:06:36,220 --> 01:06:38,900
do you swear any testimony you give this evening? We'll be truthful. Yes. Thank you. Please proceed with your question.

550
01:06:44,060 --> 01:06:44,060
okay. I've been here for 25 years. And this thing I came to know about the meeting just
Yesterday through one of my neighbors.

551
01:06:53,060 --> 01:06:53,060
so it just spurred up. Wanted to know if proper notices were given to the township and
Where the neighbors within the 200ft knew that.

552
01:07:03,420 --> 01:07:03,420
and there is a sign that says this contamination on the property can view as that.

553
01:07:09,620 --> 01:07:09,620
and another one about the open space. You know,
Is is part of the open space.

554
01:07:14,300 --> 01:07:14,300
I'm a part of another group which is mostly indians,
And I've been known there, you know,

555
01:07:19,940 --> 01:07:19,940
for 25 years. And missing is a part of that group.

556
01:07:25,620 --> 01:07:25,620
and I put the question in the same group asking,
Does anybody know or anybody knows where the township,

557
01:07:33,020 --> 01:07:33,020
you know, has posted this may or may have put up in the.

558
01:07:37,260 --> 01:07:37,260
we need to shut this group down. And I lost a lot of my friends who went out from that
Group.

559
01:07:45,220 --> 01:07:45,220
as you'll see in the last 25 years, we as an indian community has grown quite a bit.

560
01:07:50,780 --> 01:07:50,780
the message that has been sent. That if you come,
I have to stop you.

561
01:07:54,890 --> 01:07:58,290
because if you have a comment, we will welcome that,
I promise. I just want to get to everybody's question. So is there a specific point? So my question
Is using the political office to intimidate people is I don't think is

562
01:08:08,250 --> 01:08:08,250
right. Is that a question? That's a comment. And the question is,
Ma'am, I'm sorry, I have to I have to limit you to questions.

563
01:08:15,250 --> 01:08:18,490
I'm really sorry. Is is a proper notice given. That's what I want to know if proper notice. Sherry I believe notice was given.

564
01:08:23,130 --> 01:08:23,130
yes, proper notice was given. For a master plan,
Hearing notice is required to be published

565
01:08:32,970 --> 01:08:32,970
in the courier news ten days before it was posted on the township website.

566
01:08:38,890 --> 01:08:38,890
it was transmitted to all the neighboring township or township clerks,
And it was sent to the somerset county and to the planning advocacy.

567
01:08:48,650 --> 01:08:48,650
the 200 foot. Notice that you're talking about doesn't come into play until the
Application gets submitted to the planning board.

568
01:08:55,770 --> 01:08:55,770
right. Okay. But I did not see it. I thought it was to be in the local because required to
Put in the local paper newspaper,

569
01:09:04,330 --> 01:09:04,330
which is mammoth. Yep. So the courier news is our official paper because it must be a
Weekly published paper in somerset county.

570
01:09:13,370 --> 01:09:13,370
so when was it put in for? I'm sorry. When was it for the for the municipal land use?

571
01:09:18,170 --> 01:09:20,410
yeah. When was it put in? I'm sorry. When was. When was the information put in on the for for on the 12th.

572
01:09:27,290 --> 01:09:27,290
thursday the 12th. June 12th. Ten days before this hearing.

573
01:09:31,450 --> 01:09:35,330
okay. Because I saw something on the 17th that was sent to me,
So I wasn't sure. Okay. No, it was in the courier on the 12th. Yep.

574
01:09:38,210 --> 01:09:38,210
okay. I have the affidavit upstairs, so if you want to stop by tomorrow.

575
01:09:42,650 --> 01:09:42,650
yeah. Yep. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Doug hill. Okay.

576
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:51,120
okay. What was the name? Doug hill. Doug hill.

577
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:57,320
here it comes. And again, I just want to remind everybody,
When you come up, we're going to ask you for your name,

578
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:05,680
your address, if you're comfortable giving it. And we are. And we are going to support you, sir. Sir, please.

579
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:08,680
we need your name and where you live. And then we have to swear you in.

580
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,360
what was that? We need. And we need your address. If you're comfortable giving it. And? And miss casey has to swear you in.

581
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:23,600
mr. Hill, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful.

582
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:30,400
yeah, I have one comment. What is your contingency plan?

583
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:37,800
desert contingency plan that you have besides using the can view property?

584
01:10:47,390 --> 01:10:47,390
you don't have one. We do have, as michael described,
Some excess credits.

585
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:54,950
and if we, if the can view property didn't work out for some reason,
We would look at other properties.

586
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:04,550
there's other properties in this town. Yeah,
The state on the corner of orchard and burn hills.

587
01:11:11,670 --> 01:11:11,670
why wasn't that considered? Just so you know,
Something will happen at the can view property.

588
01:11:18,350 --> 01:11:18,350
they have the right to redevelop that property under the current zoning.

589
01:11:22,590 --> 01:11:22,590
right. So whether it's what's in this plan or something else,
Something will happen there.

590
01:11:29,830 --> 01:11:29,830
yeah. We can't prevent a builder from building on property that they own.

591
01:11:33,910 --> 01:11:33,910
so thank you. Thank you sir. Shelly. Jacobs. Shelly.

592
01:11:43,950 --> 01:11:43,950
jacob. My name is shelly jacobson. I live at 309 grandview road.

593
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:53,350
and do you swear gilman already? And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening
Will be truthful.

594
01:11:58,910 --> 01:12:01,590
absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. And your questions. Okay, so I signed up for both questions and comments.

595
01:12:04,030 --> 01:12:07,750
do you want me to stop with questions, or do you want me to continue? Just just questions. Okay. The question I have, which was not stated is what do you plan to demolish on the ken
View property?

596
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:19,430
so their concept plan has them demolishing everything on the on the property?

597
01:12:24,070 --> 01:12:28,030
pretty much. Okay. I really feel terrible for you. I'm really depressed about all this. You did an excellent job.

598
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:32,470
I've learned an awful lot about the process,
But I'm not sure that you should be aware of this.

599
01:12:40,830 --> 01:12:40,830
I'm not sure that you are aware of the j and j building it was built in,
Finished the construction I think

600
01:12:50,740 --> 01:12:50,740
in 1979, maybe occupied in 80. So it's been a good neighbor the whole time I've been here.

601
01:12:58,140 --> 01:12:58,140
so my question is, do you know who the architect was who designed the building?

602
01:13:04,980 --> 01:13:04,980
one person on the board. Yes, I am pei. I am pei.

603
01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:12,260
I am paid. Do you. Have you ever heard of I.m. Pei? I think he did a little thing called the louvre,
I believe I.

604
01:13:17,460 --> 01:13:17,460
he is a world class architect. He was responsible for the addition for the louvre.

605
01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:25,100
he built the baltimore willard world trade center and the rock and roll hall of fame for
Just a few of his projects.

606
01:13:35,820 --> 01:13:38,300
can I go on? Is this part of my question? Okay. I would prefer that that you would come back for a comment,
Which you will absolutely have.

607
01:13:43,180 --> 01:13:43,180
have the opportunity to do. I just wanted to lay that out there,
Because there has been no comments made about what happens to the to

608
01:13:53,060 --> 01:13:56,420
the existing buildings. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Frank. Drift.

609
01:14:06,740 --> 01:14:06,740
frank. Drift. Sir. Can we get your drift? 361 sunset road,
Skillman.

610
01:14:15,020 --> 01:14:15,020
alrighty. And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful.

611
01:14:19,140 --> 01:14:19,140
yes. Thank you. I live on sunset road. I've lived here for 82.5 years.

612
01:14:27,580 --> 01:14:30,780
so nobody can tell me anything about montgomery. Right. I was with I went to work for johnson and johnson in 1970.

613
01:14:36,940 --> 01:14:40,130
you know, when we had to get zoning to get them in there. But they came and they did a great job. I'm going to ask you,
Why can't they sell it to someone else?

614
01:14:49,530 --> 01:14:52,290
you know, I mean, here we're going to tear this building down. When johnson and johnson just made a statement that they were going to bring,
What, $55 billion of work back to new jersey or united states.

615
01:15:02,570 --> 01:15:05,530
why would we tear the building down? Not only that. Building this one over here. I mean, come on,
People.

616
01:15:10,130 --> 01:15:10,130
you know, we have ems volunteer. There's there's stress that they're there.

617
01:15:16,010 --> 01:15:16,010
max. The fire company. Nobody thinking about them,
But they can't handle it either.

618
01:15:21,730 --> 01:15:21,730
volunteer. We have everybody volunteer. If nina wants to put this over here by the state
Property,

619
01:15:30,530 --> 01:15:30,530
that's where it should go. Or by the school. Because you know that the kids could walk to
School instead of bussing them.

620
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:42,960
and that school is going to cost us a fortune. You know, nobody's thinking of these things. You know I love candy.

621
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:48,680
I started working for them in 1970, and I've been working for them ever since.

622
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:53,640
johnson and johnson ever since. And I think they've been a hell of a good neighbor.

623
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:01,880
I would hate to see that knocked down to build houses. You know, years ago that side of mr.. I, I have to limit you to a question.

624
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:09,000
you certainly can come back for a comment. I want to get to everyone's question questions.

625
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:14,400
when we had the zoning for that over there, you know,
That was considered the least area to live.

626
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:22,000
so that's why they put that there. Where would you like them to move to or what would you
Like to have there?

627
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:28,280
like that gentleman said before they sold the property,
I mean, that johnson and johnson sold the property.

628
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:33,800
I mean, certified johnson and johnson doesn't own the property you can view.

629
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,000
so they're two different companies, right? How many trucks are they used? Did you say that comes in and out of there today or will the estimate was 402.

630
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:49,160
never happened? No, I've been there since day one.

631
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:56,280
I've never seen 24 hour operation. It was never done. This is a different use than what is there now.

632
01:16:59,040 --> 01:16:59,040
same space. You know, I'm telling you, we're making a big mistake.

633
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:03,680
there are good people. I don't I don't, you know,
But it should be zoned for light manufacturing and warehouse just like it is.

634
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:14,160
thank you. If I could just clarify that the land near the

635
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,200
schools is owned by the state is deed is restricted land. So we wouldn't be able to do an affordable housing development there.

636
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:30,880
right. Next story. Oh, sorry. Patrick whalen.

637
01:17:38,670 --> 01:17:38,670
no question. Barbara fanning. Cooper. Fanning.

638
01:17:47,590 --> 01:17:47,590
so I remember barbara manning, 284 grandview road.

639
01:17:53,150 --> 01:17:57,150
ma'am, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful? I do. Thank you. So my biggest concerns, and I'm curious of what kind of transportation
Will you offer people who need it when they go to.

640
01:18:06,310 --> 01:18:06,310
can you cite. The. The township does not have to offer any transportation.

641
01:18:11,990 --> 01:18:11,990
okay. So they're going to be the people who don't have any transportation will have no
Options.

642
01:18:16,750 --> 01:18:16,750
is that correct? I didn't say that. They have cars.

643
01:18:22,350 --> 01:18:22,350
okay. What happens if for right now, the closest highway besides 601,
Which has nothing on it,

644
01:18:29,310 --> 01:18:29,310
is five, 18, 518. And or at the other end 206.

645
01:18:34,220 --> 01:18:34,220
you're talking at least, and somebody can help me on this one at least a mile and a half
To two miles.

646
01:18:40,940 --> 01:18:44,780
so the question is, how are they going to be able to get back and forth? Right. So what they need, what I would say would be we have really focused on trying to do
Infill and redevelopment along that bus line for that

647
01:18:54,740 --> 01:18:54,740
very reason. There is practically no land left that we can redevelop along the bus line.

648
01:19:02,180 --> 01:19:02,180
there are other affordable housing developments like pike run,
Which are not in areas that have access to public transportation.

649
01:19:09,940 --> 01:19:09,940
so while we wish we I think we had a more expansive public transit system.

650
01:19:16,620 --> 01:19:16,620
we're not unlike many other suburban communities where we there are gaps in our public
Transit,

651
01:19:22,060 --> 01:19:22,060
but we 100% have tried to maximize the number of units that are walkable to retail,
Shopping and the public transit line.

652
01:19:31,220 --> 01:19:31,220
okay. Now you're saying if we go into residential,
We're going to have how much traffic?

653
01:19:37,940 --> 01:19:37,940
and if we go into commercial, we'll have four,
Give or take 100 trucks.

654
01:19:42,820 --> 01:19:42,820
what? How much are you expecting if we do residential per per person?

655
01:19:47,220 --> 01:19:47,220
because you're looking at 417 times 400 or 4 per family.

656
01:19:53,660 --> 01:19:55,860
we'll get that number. We'll look that up for you. If you wanted to ask, would you like to continue to pull that off?

657
01:19:58,860 --> 01:19:58,860
I'm sorry. You want me to continue or do you want me to wait? I think that would be good.
Yeah. Are you going to have to put traffic lights up at the corner of 518 or 2 06601 and

658
01:20:08,860 --> 01:20:08,860
grandview. Yes. So with that and we were talking about the the truck,
The train traffic.

659
01:20:17,780 --> 01:20:20,820
what's going to happen with that? How is that going to affect us? Because right now when there's the train traffic that backs up and vice versa,
The other direction.

660
01:20:29,010 --> 01:20:29,010
yeah. Okay. Are they? Exactly. And is it zoned for trucks?

661
01:20:38,090 --> 01:20:38,090
yes. It's own light manufacturing. Yes. On grandview,
Are we?

662
01:20:42,210 --> 01:20:42,210
no, no, I'm talking the roads. I'm talking the roads. Are the roads zoned for trucks? I
Know, of course. Grandview and those who live behind me.

663
01:20:49,330 --> 01:20:49,330
we have a bridge at the other end of grandview that has been taken out multiple times by
Trucks because they went down and they can't get through.

664
01:20:57,090 --> 01:20:57,090
and I'm talking taken out. I would definitely encourage you to reach out to the state
About the trucks,

665
01:21:04,890 --> 01:21:04,890
because we have tried to do weight limits on roads and the state enacted karen,
Maybe you could help a law that prohibits towns from

666
01:21:14,810 --> 01:21:14,810
doing that. And the state regulates the weight limits because of the,
The, the commerce that they want to,

667
01:21:22,090 --> 01:21:22,090
to have happen in the state. So while we would love to do some of those things.

668
01:21:26,210 --> 01:21:26,210
sometimes we are superseded by the state. That's correct.

669
01:21:30,250 --> 01:21:33,370
think about that. Our roads cannot support. And I'm going to. I was on montgomery ems. I have retired since.

670
01:21:36,490 --> 01:21:36,490
having new ambulances. We have to be careful how we drive down some of those roads,
Because we have taken out sides of ambulances,

671
01:21:44,090 --> 01:21:44,090
because our telephone poles are leaning, because our roads are very narrow.

672
01:21:48,210 --> 01:21:48,210
so my question is, what are we going to do if somebody goes down our road,
They're going to back up a mile to get to a turnaround,

673
01:21:55,530 --> 01:21:55,530
which has happened multiple times. Things to think about.

674
01:22:02,170 --> 01:22:02,170
we already talked about options for ken view. So I'm just curious of what besides
Multi-use is that the only thing they're allowed to use,

675
01:22:08,850 --> 01:22:08,850
or can we do research. Can they look at getting research facilities in there?

676
01:22:15,810 --> 01:22:15,810
they're permitted to do so. What about purchasing for open space?

677
01:22:22,210 --> 01:22:22,210
is that an option? I don't understand the question.

678
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:27,520
can they purchase can view as an open space if that if that is that anybody.

679
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:31,760
I mean township whoever. I'm just curious. I,
I don't think that the property owner would would sell the option would be we would have

680
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:40,760
to condemn the property. And I guess the other question was,
What kind of tax revenue would we get from a company versus

681
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:50,680
people who are rent or living there or renting them?

682
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:55,800
so some of the projections that we've done, the residential is a more productive ratable
Than the non residential.

683
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,840
so say that again, the residential is more more productive. Yes. Would produce a higher revenue property tax revenue.

684
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:11,520
okay. Thank you. Thank you stephanie. Hi, dear.

685
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:21,360
stephanie. Highview. Okay. Okay. Okay. Jorge desantis.

686
01:23:33,590 --> 01:23:33,590
okay. Jorge. Sanctus. I don't see a need to give my address.

687
01:23:39,550 --> 01:23:42,190
that's fine. Do you live in montgomery, sir? Yes. I've been here for 25 years. Okay. And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening
Will be truthful.

688
01:23:48,110 --> 01:23:48,110
absolutely. Thank you. So I have several questions.

689
01:23:53,510 --> 01:23:53,510
has montgomery ever challenged the state quotas?

690
01:23:57,910 --> 01:23:57,910
and if. If not, why? In recent years, have you ever questioned the quotas?

691
01:24:08,790 --> 01:24:08,790
I believe the answer is no. I am not sure anyone up there could speak to that,
Because all of those were done prior to them sitting on the board.

692
01:24:17,590 --> 01:24:17,590
oh, I'm sure, I'm sure this must be common knowledge for something,
The gravity of the situation and the amount of housing that's being put into montgomery.

693
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:30,430
I would think that people would know that answer. My understanding is the answer is no. Given what I've been told.

694
01:24:37,190 --> 01:24:37,190
so the question is, why haven't you question the quotas even for the last round?

695
01:24:45,910 --> 01:24:49,550
does anybody have an answer? Let me let me say this. I'm addressing. I'm addressing the planning board.

696
01:24:53,870 --> 01:24:53,870
well, I'm sorry, what was the question? The question is,
Why hasn't montgomery, the planning board questioned the state quotas?

697
01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:03,990
I'm not sure anybody on the planning board was here at the beginning of round three.

698
01:25:08,310 --> 01:25:11,070
was anyone here? Well, for the for the last round. For the last round? Certainly. You've been around for the last year. Mr.

699
01:25:14,390 --> 01:25:14,390
desantis, I believe that the board's planner testified that he had prepared a model,
I guess,

700
01:25:23,500 --> 01:25:23,500
statewide model that. Municipalities could rely on in terms of calculating what their unit
Allocation should be.

701
01:25:33,260 --> 01:25:33,260
shouldn't montgomery township be the one researching and questioning that model and the
Quota,

702
01:25:40,580 --> 01:25:40,580
rather than someone who, in my mind, probably represents a conflict of interest?

703
01:25:46,460 --> 01:25:46,460
I'm sorry. Did I make myself. I didn't hear your last comment,
So thank you.

704
01:25:54,740 --> 01:25:54,740
I would think that montgomery township would be the one to research and question these
Models.

705
01:26:01,540 --> 01:26:01,540
this gentleman, in my mind, probably represents a conflict of interest in setting these
Models.

706
01:26:09,260 --> 01:26:12,780
but that happened in january. Excuse me, but that happened in january. Yes. Okay. I'm going to I'm going to insist that I be able to respond to this?

707
01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:17,100
yeah. Please go ahead. Okay. Please do. My firm is hired by the township.

708
01:26:23,260 --> 01:26:23,260
we're the township affordable housing consultant and and planning consultant.

709
01:26:27,860 --> 01:26:27,860
we work for the township. We develop the model on behalf of,
Not the state.

710
01:26:33,140 --> 01:26:37,060
we've developed that model on behalf of all of our municipal housing clients. Only those towns had access to our calculations and the results of the model and the
Methodologies in that model.

711
01:26:43,980 --> 01:26:47,380
we shared those results with montgomery township. They revealed a minimis difference between our model and what the state dca had done
Pursuant to the law.

712
01:26:56,740 --> 01:26:56,740
there was a decision made. I don't know exactly when it was made that it was not worth
Risking the litigation or the challenge involved,

713
01:27:06,540 --> 01:27:06,540
and at that time, we had no idea how that would play out with the program.

714
01:27:11,140 --> 01:27:11,140
we didn't know. We didn't know if we would lose immunity,
If we would be in a protracted battle and the decision was made not to challenge the

715
01:27:18,570 --> 01:27:18,570
fourth round number. I'll say this in the third round,
All the numbers were negotiated through litigation.

716
01:27:24,410 --> 01:27:27,970
every town that participated there was a number. It came out, it was back and forth. And ultimately you had to have a settlement agreement
And a judgment that said,

717
01:27:33,650 --> 01:27:37,290
here's your number and here are your mechanisms for it. And that was fair share. In prior rounds, which preceded the third round,
There was no ability to challenge the number.

718
01:27:42,330 --> 01:27:42,330
you were handed a number. It was developed in a black box by the state.

719
01:27:46,970 --> 01:27:50,890
and they handed you the number and you solved as much as you could. So I just want to make the record clear about that and I hope that's helpful.

720
01:27:54,890 --> 01:27:54,890
is this planning done in consultation with developers?

721
01:28:01,810 --> 01:28:01,810
the in terms of the involvement, the planning is done to try to solve for the obligation.

722
01:28:08,730 --> 01:28:08,730
there are developers who have approached the town,
And when those developers approach to town, the town considers whether or not there's a

723
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:15,080
reasonable. It's a reasonable proposal and how it can address the affordable housing.

724
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:20,680
and those developers who have approached the town that the town felt were on suitable
Sites that had a good model for how they

725
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:34,200
would address the housing, were put into the plan. There's three of them. Okay. You mentioned 400 to 420 trucks.

726
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:41,960
I'd be curious. What are the assumptions that you made in coming up with this number?

727
01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:48,480
and can this report be made available to the general public so that we can actually look
At how these calculations were made?

728
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:00,240
the. So the concept plan was sent to our traffic engineer,
Who then ran the numbers based on the

729
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:09,760
concept plan. So there's not a formal report,
But we could probably prepare some type of information to answer your

730
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:19,160
question. Thank you. One of the committee members mentioned earlier.

731
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:25,120
why are we here? It sounds to me like this is a fait accompli.

732
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:32,080
this is more of an informative evening. All of the questions and comments made by all of
These folks.

733
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:44,000
do they really amount to anything? Because it sounds like nothing's going to change.

734
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:49,680
if we challenge this, then we are legally liable.

735
01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:55,280
to the developers, we. Montgomery township stands to lose their immunity,
And we could be litigated.

736
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:02,080
so it almost sounds like a form of extortion to me.

737
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:08,240
is there? No, there wasn't a question in there,
But I'll answer a question.

738
01:30:18,150 --> 01:30:18,150
I came to this meeting tonight to learn everything I possibly could,
Because I don't look to make any decisions until I get all of the

739
01:30:27,590 --> 01:30:27,590
information from our professionals, as well as get questions and comments from the public.

740
01:30:33,270 --> 01:30:33,270
so I don't know what a fait accompli is in relation to us,
But I, I think you heard from the questions from the board.

741
01:30:42,270 --> 01:30:42,270
we asked some pretty specific questions to get answers,
But it sounds to me like everything is pretty much set in stone.

742
01:30:53,110 --> 01:30:53,110
we have a june 30th deadline I can't imagine before june 30th and anything is going to
Change.

743
01:30:59,910 --> 01:30:59,910
is that correct? What I would say is we had the information session earlier in the winter.

744
01:31:07,350 --> 01:31:07,350
we kind of laid out what our number was and a little bit about the approach.

745
01:31:11,710 --> 01:31:14,910
and so the number is the number and how we approached it. I think we tried to share some of those guiding principles,
Some of the challenges we were faced,

746
01:31:20,350 --> 01:31:20,350
some of the decisions that needed to be made by the township,
And trying to convey those to you tonight as to why you see the things in the plan and how

747
01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:29,030
we tried to come up with a plan that reduced the total number of new units certainly
Protected us from any builders remedy developments,

748
01:31:38,030 --> 01:31:38,030
which would, you know, be far worse than what's in the plan.

749
01:31:42,390 --> 01:31:42,390
extend the controls, especially on those senior citizen units,
And maximize the number of bonuses which would not be available to us.

750
01:31:49,790 --> 01:31:49,790
so we tried to lay out what the parameters were,
And the plan is quite detailed also to, to go into that.

751
01:31:57,150 --> 01:31:57,150
so in terms of it's more why, why did the town make the decisions that we made that are in
The plan?

752
01:32:04,430 --> 01:32:04,430
okay. Lastly. I can't understand why all the residents who live in the areas

753
01:32:14,420 --> 01:32:14,420
of this affordable housing, why they were not sent legal notices informing them as to what
Was coming around the corner.

754
01:32:23,420 --> 01:32:23,420
you mentioned that it's this was this was put in the courier.

755
01:32:28,740 --> 01:32:28,740
well, I, for one, never read the courier. And I'm sure there are many residents in
Montgomery who don't read the courier,

756
01:32:35,380 --> 01:32:35,380
so that is not a very effective form of communication to montgomery residents.

757
01:32:41,660 --> 01:32:41,660
I think. Everyone here is affected by that. In particular,
You

758
01:32:51,620 --> 01:32:51,620
know, anybody who's into these areas where there's going to be an enormous amount of
Congestion amongst other issues,

759
01:32:59,180 --> 01:33:02,180
their property values are all going to be affected by this. And I can tell you the house is along. 518 right behind that new development are now up
For sale.

760
01:33:08,610 --> 01:33:12,210
I can't imagine that at this point in time that they could. They can even give away those properties. Yep.

761
01:33:16,890 --> 01:33:16,890
thank you. And by the way, we are not here to approve any developments.

762
01:33:22,930 --> 01:33:22,930
we're not. No, I understand that. And if if a builder is ready to present plans,
Then yes,

763
01:33:29,250 --> 01:33:33,010
people who live in the area will be noticed directly. Also, this meeting, the plans for the agenda etc.

764
01:33:37,290 --> 01:33:37,290
is always on the website for the township. I understand that,
But we're all the residents in these affected areas,

765
01:33:45,730 --> 01:33:45,730
were they notified by mail? If there is a plan for for the builder to build on on the
Land,

766
01:33:54,890 --> 01:33:54,890
then they will be. Yeah. Michael. Well we'll also so there's a couple steps here.

767
01:33:59,850 --> 01:33:59,850
this is the master plan. The master plan doesn't create any ordinances.

768
01:34:05,210 --> 01:34:05,210
ordinances are adopted. If a zoning ordinance is changed,
The zoning is changed.

769
01:34:10,050 --> 01:34:10,050
there would be notice to 200 foot property owners within that zone and within 200ft of
That zone.

770
01:34:15,410 --> 01:34:18,770
so there's a notice when the property is zoned. And there will be a notice for major development applications on those sites.

771
01:34:23,530 --> 01:34:23,530
when a developer would actually come in and do the plan. So those are the two times you'll
Get 200 foot notice.

772
01:34:29,010 --> 01:34:31,650
and one of those notices are actually sent out. What recourse do the residents actually have in affecting those plans?

773
01:34:40,490 --> 01:34:43,810
I don't know how to answer that. What is the answer? Well, what I've been telling some of the folks that I've talked to to come into the
Planning office or look at the concept plan and zoom with myself or

774
01:34:53,410 --> 01:34:53,410
sherry, talk a little bit about it, and provide feedback and input into what's now a
Concept plan and what will become something,

775
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:05,920
you know, that would go before the planning board to get those comments in. So sherry and I would be available to do that with any residents or some of the folks that
I talked to today.

776
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:11,080
we talked about that. Laura, you testified to me,
To me that you you said that there would be a change in there would be a required change

777
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:20,120
in zoning, which would propagate a either a planning board or a zoning board meeting.

778
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:24,680
zoning board. Right. Depending on the scale of the change,
Probably a zoning board, right? Unless the township committee,

779
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:30,200
township township committee for a zoning ordinance,
It would be referred to the planning board for consistency review.

780
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:36,120
it would not go to the zoning board. Right. So the planning board then would have a
Meeting, and then it would go to the township committee to adjudicate and change the

781
01:35:44,080 --> 01:35:44,080
zoning. At that time, sir, you would then you would be able to speak at a future planning
Board meeting,

782
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:49,840
different opportunities and a future township committee meeting to state your objection to
Any,

783
01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:56,680
any specific pacific development. That was why I was trying to say that these plans are
Are just planned.

784
01:36:03,590 --> 01:36:03,590
that it's not there's nothing approved here. I understand what the state the state is
Mandating that we

785
01:36:13,270 --> 01:36:13,270
provide x number of units for affordable units.

786
01:36:17,910 --> 01:36:17,910
so there's no sounds to me like there's no getting around that.

787
01:36:22,030 --> 01:36:22,030
the state has mandated that. Okay. If sir if you have no other questions,
You certainly can come back for comments.

788
01:36:32,110 --> 01:36:32,110
so thank you. Thank you. Okay. Nancy defazio.

789
01:36:46,350 --> 01:36:49,430
ma'am, I'm nancy defazio and I live in skillman. Alrighty. And, ma'am, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful.

790
01:36:54,590 --> 01:36:54,590
I do. Thank you. Questions. My first question was a little bit already addressed,
But I just want to clarify because I have personal confusion from some from something that

791
01:37:04,110 --> 01:37:04,110
was said in the january meeting. So my question first is,
Is the consultant ever represent the state or consult for the state?

792
01:37:12,870 --> 01:37:12,870
thank you. Sorry. Just my. So this is from confusion from a january meeting.

793
01:37:18,710 --> 01:37:18,710
I'm asking if the consultant ever consults or represents this state.

794
01:37:24,230 --> 01:37:27,110
man, the state's very large. I mean, there are many agencies. No, no, I know. I'm asking, does the consultant ever represent the state of new jersey or
Consult or or consult for them?

795
01:37:35,070 --> 01:37:35,070
yes or no? Yes. Okay. Not not as a not an affordable housing.

796
01:37:42,710 --> 01:37:42,710
not not an affordable housing. Correct. Okay.

797
01:37:49,070 --> 01:37:49,070
but I'm trying to, like, make this a simpler question.

798
01:37:53,550 --> 01:37:56,940
so I have a question a little bit about extension of controls. And I'm basing it on something you said. So I'm not sure I understood what you said,
But it sounds like because most of the building,

799
01:38:04,820 --> 01:38:04,820
a lot of the building now is related to affordable housing,
That less money is coming into some fund that funds the extension of controls.

800
01:38:12,620 --> 01:38:12,620
so my question is where does the money come from for the extension of controls and if
There's less money coming in.

801
01:38:18,580 --> 01:38:18,580
is that a tax burden on the township citizens.

802
01:38:24,180 --> 01:38:24,180
so let's say montgomery promenade that's under development right now.

803
01:38:29,060 --> 01:38:29,060
they are not providing affordable housing. So they will pay an affordable housing
Development fee when they apply for building permits for each of them.

804
01:38:38,420 --> 01:38:38,420
that money goes into the dedicated affordable housing trust.

805
01:38:42,580 --> 01:38:42,580
and so developments like that pay, pay into it.

806
01:38:46,620 --> 01:38:50,300
and that's the money that we have available to you. So when we talked about the 100% projects. So over the years we've been accumulating our
Trust fund.

807
01:38:58,980 --> 01:38:58,980
and so that's why in the last round, we had money available to help subsidize the 100%
Affordable projects.

808
01:39:05,820 --> 01:39:05,820
so we've drawn down on that. We're recovering with new montgomery promenade is under
Construction.

809
01:39:12,940 --> 01:39:12,940
and so that will that those fees will go into the affordable housing trust.

810
01:39:17,300 --> 01:39:17,300
but in terms of being able to have that financial burden shared between the township's
Affordable housing trust fund and

811
01:39:27,380 --> 01:39:27,380
the developer at the can view site, that helps us extend more controls without directly
Impacting the general budget of the township.

812
01:39:35,620 --> 01:39:35,620
okay, okay. Just my one one question. Like, so if there's like an 80 over 20 development,
Do they give any money to the.

813
01:39:42,060 --> 01:39:42,060
no. So if they build even one unit of affordable housing,
They give nothing to that fund.

814
01:39:47,540 --> 01:39:47,540
well, I mean, nobody's building one, but you know what I'm saying? That's correct. If it's
An inclusionary development that is doing a set aside,

815
01:39:53,970 --> 01:39:53,970
let's say it's 15% or 20%, they do not pay the residential fee.

816
01:39:59,810 --> 01:39:59,810
however, if you have a mixed use residential and nonresidential like village walk,
They will pay developer fees on all the non residential portion of that,

817
01:40:09,770 --> 01:40:13,570
but they will not pay residential fees on the market rate units within that. Okay. And all the money comes from developers and and also homeowners.

818
01:40:19,370 --> 01:40:19,370
if you apply for any additional square footage.

819
01:40:24,130 --> 01:40:27,650
so not interior renovations but additional square footage. That's all by the state. This isn't done by the township.

820
01:40:30,450 --> 01:40:30,450
that's the state as part of the the rules. Okay.

821
01:40:34,690 --> 01:40:34,690
I think that's it. I just need oh, yeah. George basically just asked this question,
But I wanted to ask,

822
01:40:43,570 --> 01:40:43,570
are there any changes? I know you guys keep saying this isn't set in stone,
But it's hard to believe that,

823
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:49,000
to be honest. So my question is what is like are there changes at this point that could
Result from the public comment?

824
01:40:57,240 --> 01:40:57,240
what are the most effective ways to give input and what changes could possibly result from
That input?

825
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:03,520
like honestly? I want to take a shot, michael.

826
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:09,520
I mean, I'm I it's speculation. I don't know if you if you own some property that you
Would like to use to develop

827
01:41:19,480 --> 01:41:19,480
affordable housing, then that would be a change or could be a change.

828
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:23,680
so I have to own property I want to develop to make a change in this plan so nobody else
Can make.

829
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:31,120
so public input isn't going to change anything. It's only if you have property to offer. No,
I mean that's what she said.

830
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:39,040
I will answer that question in a future meeting. We could deny the application, whatever future application. We could deny it because it
Doesn't meet the plan of the township.

831
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:45,240
we could. Okay. So so the best way to give is there going to be like ways to give written
Comments or just speak at a meeting?

832
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:56,960
is there anything in particular? Is it the ken view site or is it? I'd like to have a time to develop more questions than what I have right this minute.

833
01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:02,120
and I'm also probably going to meet other people that don't know this is happening.

834
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:06,280
so I want to be able to tell people, hey, if you have something to say about this,
You can write an email to this email address or whatever.

835
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:14,040
but I need to know what that is or I can't do that.

836
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:19,000
what I've been telling folks that I've talked to,
If they have the the can view plan is a concept plan.

837
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:26,280
so if so, some of the people that live in the area had had a chance to talk to they can
Reach out to me or sherry.

838
01:42:34,640 --> 01:42:34,640
I can give you my email, my phone number. So there's not going to be like a place where
You're collecting comments from the general public.

839
01:42:41,320 --> 01:42:41,320
well, I reach out to you personally. Can I ask a clarifying question?

840
01:42:46,990 --> 01:42:49,790
I don't have my glasses on. Hi. I'm here. Okay. Mine are for reading. Are you questioning the the affordable housing plan numbers that
We're talking about,

841
01:42:58,950 --> 01:42:58,950
or are you questioning, like, what the can view site could look like?

842
01:43:03,630 --> 01:43:07,430
well, my understanding is that you guys thought of not I don't. If you don't feel like you as part of this, then just exclude yourself.

843
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:10,870
but my feeling and an impression is that the people running our town think of this as just
Something that we have to say yes to,

844
01:43:19,390 --> 01:43:19,390
because the state has passed laws that the process creates a situation.

845
01:43:24,830 --> 01:43:24,830
I'm going to. You're putting me in a position where I'm commenting,
But like, you can't say no or you lose your rights.

846
01:43:30,870 --> 01:43:30,870
well, and so so I it's not so my what I want to know is it's you.

847
01:43:37,310 --> 01:43:40,390
it seems to be too. It's too late to object to the numbers. So I guess my question is now we have people might want to object to the plans.

848
01:43:45,670 --> 01:43:45,670
so how? Besides calling somebody personally,
How can the general public contact you with input?

849
01:43:51,670 --> 01:43:51,670
okay. And again you're talking about the housing plan not the individual like can view
Site.

850
01:43:58,590 --> 01:43:58,590
correct. I don't know. I want to be able if I talk to someone and they say,
Oh I don't think it should be at the kennedy site.

851
01:44:05,070 --> 01:44:05,070
it's not just me. If I want to contact one of you,
I will do it.

852
01:44:10,150 --> 01:44:13,510
but I'm here. There's other people that don't even know about this meeting. I'm more asking for those people. How do they talk to you if they don't like ken view or
They don't like the numbers or I mean the numbers,

853
01:44:21,630 --> 01:44:21,630
it's that's wrong because it's too late. But if they don't like the site or they don't
Like the fact that there's not enough exits from the development or whatever that is,

854
01:44:28,430 --> 01:44:28,430
that's a really good question. And I would urge everybody to watch the website look at
The.

855
01:44:37,110 --> 01:44:37,110
so you're not going to provide like an email to,
To submit like you're telling us.

856
01:44:41,860 --> 01:44:44,260
we all should be gotten constant vigilance. No,
No, no. If if yes. Well, well, I am a witness. I'm here,
But other people aren't.

857
01:44:51,300 --> 01:44:54,500
because they don't know. Okay, let's let's turn it down a little bit. First of all, I hope you understand. Hope everybody understands.

858
01:44:58,140 --> 01:44:58,140
we are all residents as well. I mean, I hope everybody gets that right.

859
01:45:03,500 --> 01:45:06,780
you were appointed by elected officials. Right. But we are residents of the town. I can assure everybody that when a site plan comes up to
The planning board,

860
01:45:15,900 --> 01:45:15,900
there will be sufficient notice. And I believe,
Cheri, if someone lives within a certain amount of feet,

861
01:45:23,820 --> 01:45:23,820
miles, yards, 200, 200ft, right, they will get a personal notice in their mail.

862
01:45:30,220 --> 01:45:30,220
so you're not going to provide a collection place for everybody here.

863
01:45:34,460 --> 01:45:37,060
she said she would. Here's the township administrator. The township administrator provided. Oh, thanks for telling me.

864
01:45:41,170 --> 01:45:41,170
okay. That's it. I'm done. Here's here's the thing.

865
01:45:45,250 --> 01:45:45,250
for every. For the township committee, for the planning board,
For the zoning board.

866
01:45:51,210 --> 01:45:51,210
if you're we are not supposed to just take comments from people who don't come to the
Meeting because they

867
01:46:00,730 --> 01:46:04,290
don't they haven't listened to the presentation. And I remember having an issue. I wanted to speak to the township committee about,
And I had a very fussy toddler,

868
01:46:11,810 --> 01:46:11,810
and I had to leave the meeting, and I wanted to leave,
Drop off a letter, and they weren't supposed to look at it.

869
01:46:21,530 --> 01:46:21,530
sometimes they say they'll take it as a courtesy,
But the comments that come from people who haven't listened to the presentation

870
01:46:32,210 --> 01:46:34,970
they may not know what they're commenting on. So that's my understanding, is why it isn't allowed.

871
01:46:39,530 --> 01:46:39,530
and is that a state law about planning boards not taking letters and petitions and things
Like that?

872
01:46:48,410 --> 01:46:48,410
if I could clarify, perhaps it would be helpful in terms of providing comments or asking
Questions about what happens

873
01:46:59,770 --> 01:46:59,770
moving forward from the master plan and the housing element,
Which the planning board is being asked

874
01:47:09,690 --> 01:47:09,690
to approve. Both the administrator, who's also our planning director and our assistant
Planning director,

875
01:47:17,170 --> 01:47:17,170
sherry cruz, have stated tonight their emails are right there on the township website.

876
01:47:24,730 --> 01:47:24,730
any questions? Any information you're looking for,
They are available to you.

877
01:47:30,970 --> 01:47:34,130
you send them an email, they will get back to you. In terms of the properties that this plan anticipates will be able to generate affordable
Units.

878
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:44,840
those properties still require adoption of ordinances by the governing body.

879
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:52,320
those agendas are posted before every meeting.

880
01:47:57,520 --> 01:47:57,520
in addition, each application needs a site plan.

881
01:48:04,400 --> 01:48:06,960
we don't know if they need variances as well. They may. All of you within 200ft will get a notice indicating the application is coming
Up.

882
01:48:16,160 --> 01:48:16,160
what is the applicant looking for? Are they looking just for variances.

883
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:23,280
they also need a site plan. Where are they going to put the buildings. Where are they putting access. What kind of landscaping are they putting.

884
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:27,920
all of these issues are down the road. It will come in front of this planning board,
And all of you will have the opportunity to see the

885
01:48:37,870 --> 01:48:37,870
plans ahead of time to come to the meeting to raise your concerns.

886
01:48:43,590 --> 01:48:43,590
to send comments to the planning director of something particular that bothers you.

887
01:48:49,670 --> 01:48:49,670
the reason for planning board applications not this hearing,
But planning board applications.

888
01:48:55,150 --> 01:48:55,150
the reason we require people to come in person is because the state land use law requires
Sworn testimony.

889
01:49:04,270 --> 01:49:04,270
if I'm the developer, I'm the applicant. Letters are sent.

890
01:49:09,750 --> 01:49:09,750
I say, well, that's not correct. I would like to question the person who's making these
Statements.

891
01:49:16,390 --> 01:49:16,390
suppose you live within 200ft of can view and you feel there is going to be a terrible
Traffic

892
01:49:26,470 --> 01:49:29,710
impact. Okay. The developer says, no, that's not true. Or you feel your driveway is going to be impeded and I'm just picking examples out of the
Air.

893
01:49:37,550 --> 01:49:37,550
the state land use law requires that you be there so that questions can be asked if you by
The board as well.

894
01:49:44,790 --> 01:49:44,790
if you sent a letter and said it's going to ruin my landscaping.

895
01:49:49,670 --> 01:49:49,670
okay. How is that going to happen? Tell us. The board wants to know.

896
01:49:55,150 --> 01:49:58,190
the developer may say, well, I'd like to know,
Too. Maybe there's a way I can alleviate that. So I don't know if that's helpful,
But that's the reason why at planning board

897
01:50:07,550 --> 01:50:07,550
applications, we need you here in person. Deborah keenan.

898
01:50:26,230 --> 01:50:26,230
keenan keenan skillman and miss keenan, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this
Evening will be truthful?

899
01:50:34,740 --> 01:50:34,740
I do. Thank you. So in the state plan, when they were coming up with a 260 that number,
They kept certain portions

900
01:50:44,660 --> 01:50:44,660
of properties out. It was considered rural or so forth.

901
01:50:49,860 --> 01:50:49,860
so, mike and one of those properties is considered rural is actually in the ken view area.

902
01:50:54,540 --> 01:50:54,540
so it wasn't put in as a developable site for affordable housing in the state's
Calculation.

903
01:51:00,820 --> 01:51:00,820
so aren't you are we concerned that when the state calculated that montgomery's number,
That the rural properties that were excluded and

904
01:51:10,740 --> 01:51:10,740
can view is now going to be included? Are we concerned that this could change the state's
Calculations because we are opting in properties

905
01:51:20,700 --> 01:51:20,700
that they would they did not include in their own calculations.

906
01:51:25,540 --> 01:51:25,540
can I ask you a clarifying question on that,
Deborah? Because I think it's a great point. So are you specifically,

907
01:51:30,980 --> 01:51:30,980
are you testifying now that that that when the state determined the 260 that the can view
Site specifically was not a part of their calculations?

908
01:51:40,700 --> 01:51:40,700
is that what you're correct. It was. Thank you of the property because it was rural.

909
01:51:47,940 --> 01:51:47,940
it's testimony. Can you confirm that that that testimony,
Miss aaron?

910
01:51:52,980 --> 01:51:52,980
well I if I to answer the question, the whether it's in or out would not change your
Number at all.

911
01:52:00,900 --> 01:52:00,900
but but the state calculated we're throwing in properties and saying they could come back
And say hey then all of montgomery is included in this.

912
01:52:08,980 --> 01:52:11,900
the court has set the number. The number cannot change. Okay. So there's no concern about that. Okay.

913
01:52:14,500 --> 01:52:14,500
so if I look at the can view properties there's it's made up of four lot blocks.

914
01:52:19,340 --> 01:52:19,340
okay. The one that there the developer is considering donating is not in the sewer system
Area anyway.

915
01:52:26,930 --> 01:52:26,930
so, you know, if they sold it to a developer,
The most, they could put in this 12 houses because it's mountain zoned right around their

916
01:52:33,170 --> 01:52:33,170
mountain residential. So I don't think that really kind of comes in calculation wise.

917
01:52:38,650 --> 01:52:38,650
and then the other portion that is in there,
Which is the commercial aspect, it is 160 acres.

918
01:52:46,410 --> 01:52:46,410
so if you look at 160 acres and the zoning mountain zoning,
It would only mean a developer could come in there and put in 16 if you switch it to

919
01:52:55,210 --> 01:52:55,210
residential, or if you did it residential five,
It would be a maximum of 32.

920
01:53:01,490 --> 01:53:05,130
or even if you did the r-2 zoning, it would be a maximum of 80. And now we're talking 417. Okay. This is in an area that is southlands.

921
01:53:11,810 --> 01:53:11,810
it's considered very sensitive. So why would we all of a sudden say oh 412 is,
Is totally fine.

922
01:53:18,290 --> 01:53:18,290
that's very problematic I think. Does anyone concerned about those numbers.

923
01:53:24,050 --> 01:53:24,050
yeah. Can I ask you a clarifying question? Did your 160 acres include the wetlands also,
Which would be reducing?

924
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:37,240
I don't even know. All I know is it's the. So 14. If you look at the block and lock number 14 I'm going to assume it's this is the part that
Is possibly developable because 14.

925
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:48,400
is it 14001 lot two. There's a portion that's property class code of four eight,
Which is commercial.

926
01:53:55,080 --> 01:53:55,080
that's what they're getting. The what we get as a township,
The highest level of taxation on that commercial.

927
01:54:00,560 --> 01:54:00,560
and that is it. It's valued right now a net of $41 million.

928
01:54:05,720 --> 01:54:05,720
right. That is the 140, sorry, 160 acres. There is another parcel that there is qualified
As farm on that same side in

929
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:15,520
that I would call sewer area. And that is qualified as farm and that is 97 acres.

930
01:54:22,800 --> 01:54:26,200
so I don't know how developable it is or not. But even if you said, hey, the whole thing could be,
We're still talking.

931
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:30,760
if it was, that's a total of 257 acres. That would be for ten acres owning.

932
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:35,640
it's 25 buildings. It's 25 houses. We're not 417.

933
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:43,720
if you did five acres zoning, it's 51 housing,
Even two acres. It's 128 a lot, right? But nowhere near 400 something units.

934
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:48,840
so I just don't know if that is, has that been brought into any kind of consideration when
Just switching from commercial to residential?

935
01:54:58,200 --> 01:54:58,200
so I know that the state has smart growth goals in the state plan,
Which is being formulated and finished now.

936
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:05,840
and so areas with existing development like the can view site would be sites they would
Recommend for redevelopment,

937
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:13,840
because they're not we're not expanding on footprint that hasn't already been degraded.

938
01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:22,870
so that would be the 160 acres because the rest has not been developed. Correct. Okay. So it sounds from I know this would go in front of the township committee
And zoning and stuff,

939
01:55:27,750 --> 01:55:31,350
but it seems to me very problematic that this parcel is even in there. Who owns who currently owns the property? We're working with the contract purchaser.

940
01:55:37,710 --> 01:55:37,710
okay. But it's currently owned by ken view, aka johnson and johnson.

941
01:55:42,230 --> 01:55:42,230
so if you look at the deed and stuff, I think it still says johnson and johnson,
Who made the determination from a corporation to leave montgomery and to go to summit.

942
01:55:49,750 --> 01:55:49,750
right. So that is and we that's a significant amount of taxes that we get as a township
For that property.

943
01:55:57,550 --> 01:56:01,550
my sense is that I don't know what we're doing to make life better for them. They own the property. They're going to have to keep paying the taxes on that.

944
01:56:05,110 --> 01:56:07,990
we should find the right thing that fits for montgomery. So switching it from commercial to residential,
There be better be a very, very, very good reason.

945
01:56:14,670 --> 01:56:17,550
a huge benefit for montgomery to even consider doing this. And I don't think just a couple of things, and they're trying to buy out of something
Affordable housing.

946
01:56:22,510 --> 01:56:22,510
is that so? I'm sorry it wasn't a question on that one,
But I did want to clarify some of those things.

947
01:56:29,830 --> 01:56:29,830
and then this idea that there is more taxes that would come in residential taxation versus
Commercial taxation,

948
01:56:35,870 --> 01:56:35,870
it's also how much how much of that tax dollars do you actually use generally?

949
01:56:40,830 --> 01:56:44,430
commercial. They don't use a lot of the services within the town. So then to switch it to residential, it's huge.

950
01:56:46,470 --> 01:56:46,470
it's massive. And so they're not equal. So my question is for plan b right.

951
01:56:54,350 --> 01:56:54,350
the old municipal building site was that considered.

952
01:56:58,750 --> 01:56:58,750
it was in a prior plan. But that project has moved down to this property,
The 100% seniors to be closer to public transportation because there's not public

953
01:57:08,430 --> 01:57:08,430
transportation up there. Okay. But it could be part of this plan,
Right?

954
01:57:13,990 --> 01:57:13,990
I mean, it could be this. Right? Well, I believe someone would have to buy it and then
Someone would have.

955
01:57:20,660 --> 01:57:20,660
or we could build it. We could build it as a as a municipality.

956
01:57:25,460 --> 01:57:25,460
we're building over there. I mean, it is it's it's in our.

957
01:57:29,620 --> 01:57:29,620
we could do it. Okay. It costs money and we'd have to look at the finances,
But that is certainly part of it.

958
01:57:34,580 --> 01:57:34,580
and we could maybe hit maybe we could do 260 units there or something.

959
01:57:39,740 --> 01:57:39,740
so as opposed to opening that. So I don't know why that property isn't part of this.

960
01:57:44,540 --> 01:57:44,540
so so so I. Right. So I, I know something will happen at can view.

961
01:57:50,180 --> 01:57:50,180
but I think as a township we should help decide even if we're like I'm sorry that you
Can't sell this to get this off your corporate books.

962
01:57:58,340 --> 01:57:58,340
not our problem. Right. We should be. Let them pay the taxes until we as a township decide
What works best for them.

963
01:58:04,860 --> 01:58:04,860
and not just deborah, I understand. I'm not sure we can determine who they sell to or not.

964
01:58:12,100 --> 01:58:12,100
no, but we don't have to change the zoning. You say,
Hey, buy it the way it is.

965
01:58:16,210 --> 01:58:16,210
I actually have a question for you. This hearing is about our state numbers.

966
01:58:24,090 --> 01:58:24,090
no, it's not about the state numbers. Those were. I'm sorry. This is about approving. This
Is about approving our plan.

967
01:58:29,610 --> 01:58:29,610
right. So for. So it's not about the can view property per se.

968
01:58:34,330 --> 01:58:37,210
well it is in terms of how we come up with our numbers too. In terms of the can be property. We're given this massive property and a massive pass.

969
01:58:41,970 --> 01:58:41,970
they're hardly putting in any units that are actually affordable,
And they're just putting in a lot of properties.

970
01:58:47,010 --> 01:58:47,010
I think it's a well, they're also putting in funds in order for us to extend.

971
01:58:55,570 --> 01:58:55,570
well, frankly, I would think if we wanted to change the zoning for them from something
That isn't there saying they can't sell it.

972
01:59:01,850 --> 01:59:04,450
well, if you want to change, we want to change the zoning. You know what? I think we're in a better driver's seat than just,
Say, put a little bit of money into something else.

973
01:59:10,170 --> 01:59:10,170
I think that the numbers that we've come up with on that property should be hugely should
Be changed.

974
01:59:16,330 --> 01:59:16,330
but I want to talk to about 23 orchard, if I may because.

975
01:59:20,650 --> 01:59:24,130
is there a question. There is a question about that one. Okay. So 23 I'm sorry, 23 orchard is in the sewer service area,
Correct?

976
01:59:31,810 --> 01:59:31,810
yes. Okay, great. Thank you. It's commercial right now.

977
01:59:37,010 --> 01:59:37,010
and I know the owners. It was bought at bankruptcy,
And they're now they've just done a they've come back to the taxes and they've moved it

978
01:59:45,970 --> 01:59:49,210
down to half of what they paid last year in taxes. How much do they currently pay in taxes? I don't have that off the top of my head.

979
01:59:54,570 --> 01:59:54,570
can we get it for last for 2024 and 2025? Because they did come to come back to get it
Reassessed.

980
02:00:02,170 --> 02:00:02,170
because my point is these this developer has come in and bought a commercial property at
Bankruptcy and is now actually doing a very good job of filling that property and

981
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:14,600
now saying, hey, I got to make it work for myself. So I want to put in a huge amount of units of residential units.

982
02:00:19,400 --> 02:00:19,400
if that's indeed the case, then we as a township should sure as heck demand more than 20%.

983
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:25,920
right? You're changing the zoning, right? If you want a zoning change,
Then 20% is nothing.

984
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:33,280
and we should be saying why not put all put 40% in there?

985
02:00:37,360 --> 02:00:39,880
right. If you can make a go of it, great. If you can't,
Oh well. But we shouldn't be settling for 2,020% 20. Right.

986
02:00:43,320 --> 02:00:43,320
it's 20. Is it 20%. Is that the units. So how many was it for?

987
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:48,640
23. Orchard 180 total with 36 affordable. So affordable units 36 would be it.

988
02:00:56,160 --> 02:00:56,160
so if we're if they're wanting to basically really develop this thing,
I think 20% is not enough.

989
02:01:02,160 --> 02:01:02,160
so would you consider changing it to say 40%?

990
02:01:08,240 --> 02:01:08,240
I could say that as a practical matter. Project projects like that without subsidies from
A municipality or from tax credit financing are

991
02:01:18,120 --> 02:01:18,120
infeasible at that set aside. But we don't really even need it to be developed.

992
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:22,840
right? So why does it why would we giving it away in essence,
For free?

993
02:01:27,920 --> 02:01:27,920
like we should be getting something more that I would hope that the that the planning
Board would really consider that either now or in the future when it comes to that.

994
02:01:37,200 --> 02:01:37,200
so and then if just as just a note to people in the audience,
If you want to get more information on collecting names afterwards and contact information

995
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:45,880
will keep people apprized. Thank you. Craig craig johnson,
City

996
02:01:55,640 --> 02:01:55,640
manager. Rom. Rom a sorry. Rom.

997
02:02:06,160 --> 02:02:06,160
nope. Claude takano and paul vecchione.

998
02:02:15,870 --> 02:02:15,870
kristen paul is coming. Hello. Paul vecchio and six mathew storm road.

999
02:02:24,670 --> 02:02:28,390
sir, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful. I do. Thank you. Just a question in regards. I know the state's going to force pretty much
Everything on us here.

1000
02:02:35,950 --> 02:02:35,950
after the adoption. I'm assuming the adoption of some plan.

1001
02:02:40,470 --> 02:02:44,310
if. What? What's that time frame look like after that? As far as what we have to do in the in the various steps have to be taken.

1002
02:02:47,590 --> 02:02:47,590
kind of. What's that general. So, so the the the housing plan element is required to be
Adopted and filed by june 30th.

1003
02:02:55,670 --> 02:02:55,670
okay. After that, there are a series of implementing ordinances that would have to be
Adopted.

1004
02:03:01,430 --> 02:03:01,430
and we have until march 15th of 2026 to adopt those ordinances.

1005
02:03:07,020 --> 02:03:07,020
all right. Would that be where the variances take place? No no,
No. The variance happens at a at a hearing,

1006
02:03:12,740 --> 02:03:12,740
either a planning board or a zoning board application where there's a deviation from the
Standard. What would happen in that step, that first part then between now and march 26th.

1007
02:03:20,860 --> 02:03:24,500
march 15th of 2020 2022. What would happen in there? They're the ordinances that are required to create the zoning opportunities,
The ordinances,

1008
02:03:31,300 --> 02:03:31,300
the updated ordinances for the municipal fee ordinances.

1009
02:03:35,340 --> 02:03:35,340
those will all be updated and to comply with the new fair housing act and to be able to
Implement the plans that are talked about in here in terms of the

1010
02:03:44,860 --> 02:03:44,860
inclusionary development. So any other agreements that have to be made.

1011
02:03:49,580 --> 02:03:49,580
okay. So at that point, I guess there's still 27 municipalities challenging that are suing
The state of new jersey.

1012
02:03:56,180 --> 02:03:59,580
I know they've all adopted plans up to this point. Would we consider as a town or the planning board joining those 27?

1013
02:04:02,980 --> 02:04:02,980
because my understanding is they're opposing the formula. And then any other changes have
To happen at the legislative level in between now and then,

1014
02:04:10,900 --> 02:04:10,900
we have an election coming up at the state level,
Which could potentially change this. I think we should reach out as a group if we haven't

1015
02:04:17,060 --> 02:04:19,700
reached out to our state legislators already. As to our opposition to the formula, we should do that right away.

1016
02:04:24,020 --> 02:04:24,020
but then consider joining the other 27 municipalities,
You know, against this fight about the formula,

1017
02:04:30,500 --> 02:04:34,380
and then let the legislative area kind of play itself out in that regard. Can I ask a clarifying question based on what you just said to our planner,
The 27 towns that have filed a lawsuit?

1018
02:04:41,820 --> 02:04:44,220
I have one of them was that I have one of them. You have one. One of them. Okay. Did they did they ever pass a resolution as a township to
To agree to the

1019
02:04:53,940 --> 02:04:53,940
number, or did they follow the lawsuit before that time?

1020
02:04:58,340 --> 02:04:58,340
I guess have have have we already missed the opportunity to do that or could we?

1021
02:05:03,130 --> 02:05:03,130
as as the commentator says or the questioner says,
Join a.

1022
02:05:07,730 --> 02:05:07,730
I think they would always love to have more riders on the bus for that,
Right?

1023
02:05:11,970 --> 02:05:15,690
I guess I'm asking your perspective as a as a planner. Not not in your opinion. Not illegal. Not legal stuff.

1024
02:05:18,770 --> 02:05:18,770
not not not as a yes. Yes. Based on your knowledge of the affordable housing act that was
Passed.

1025
02:05:27,810 --> 02:05:27,810
like, warren township's still part of it. You know,
Our neighbors to the north. No, I, I.

1026
02:05:32,250 --> 02:05:32,250
well, let me let me pull back a second and say this,
That in all of the towns where we've passed resolutions,

1027
02:05:38,610 --> 02:05:38,610
adopted a plan, those resolutions include a caveat in there that if this litigation ends
Up changing what has happened in here,

1028
02:05:48,010 --> 02:05:48,010
the assumptions that this is based on, or there's a change to the fair housing act that
Changes things,

1029
02:05:54,210 --> 02:05:54,210
we reserve the right to go back and change that plan to reflect that so that that will be
In there.

1030
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:01,080
that's all I know is a plan. So I guess. But my question is,
Did they comply with their requirement to and then file the lawsuit?

1031
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:12,560
yeah, they adopted a plan. They did adopt the they adopted all 27. Adopted a plan. So so what's happened? Avoid the builder.

1032
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:19,480
this is my expert. So I just want to make sure from my expert that. Yeah. But I think your point is very valid. And it's a good question. Yeah.

1033
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:26,800
yeah. Yeah. Yes. Please. Please, please. I don't want to interrupt. Yeah. The the towns that I work with and the ones I'm familiar with,
They all stipulated to a number,

1034
02:06:32,680 --> 02:06:32,680
and they figured we're going to do this, and we'll figure it out later. Maybe we'll file a
Plan, maybe we won't.

1035
02:06:37,360 --> 02:06:41,200
and then going down the road, they decided we're going to file. And they file the plans with that caveat in there.

1036
02:06:43,400 --> 02:06:43,400
they still have that caveat on there that if things change because of litigation,
Right.

1037
02:06:47,680 --> 02:06:47,680
they want that out to be able to revise their plan without fear of having builders come in
And say,

1038
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:52,920
no, you're changing your plan. You can't do that. So if we did adopt our plan,
It would have those caveats as well.

1039
02:07:00,360 --> 02:07:00,360
that's what I suggest that the resolution and I think she has that too.

1040
02:07:05,160 --> 02:07:05,160
what's what's the downside of joining that litigation with those groups? Money.

1041
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:09,840
we don't know what that amendment is. Yeah. Well that's also not a decision for the
Planning board.

1042
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:14,440
that would be the township committee. I mean,
This whole plan is going to cost us money. So it's a matter of how much?

1043
02:07:20,760 --> 02:07:24,680
how what what's the process if you do have to pivot properly? Properties like if that. I want to talk about the kennedy property.

1044
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:30,760
let's just say for instance variances are in passed. And I think someone brought up the state property that's restricted land,
The orchard and or by the church or the right.

1045
02:07:38,800 --> 02:07:40,960
right. And that what does that mean? Restricted. The state would not allow us to buy that from them,
Or a developer to buy it from them for this type of a project.

1046
02:07:47,240 --> 02:07:47,240
well, close to the school, walk to school, all that township is currently working with the
State to acquire the property,

1047
02:07:53,960 --> 02:07:53,960
but it has a restriction on it, so we couldn't put it in the plan right now.

1048
02:07:58,150 --> 02:07:58,150
one, we don't control it and two, there is restrictions. So there would have to be a
Process we would go through to lift those restrictions.

1049
02:08:05,830 --> 02:08:05,830
so that is probably a two year process. And it's a farmland restriction right.

1050
02:08:12,310 --> 02:08:12,310
it has to be used for farmland. I'm sorry. Say it again.

1051
02:08:16,470 --> 02:08:20,270
farmland restricted to farmland. That's preserved farmland. Right, right. And just to your other question,
If I just I just ran some numbers quickly here to replace ken view as a site in here.

1052
02:08:28,190 --> 02:08:28,190
let's say you want to say there was a sea change in the township's view of this and
Whatever.

1053
02:08:34,430 --> 02:08:34,430
to replace ken view, you would need a site or sites capable of producing over 700 market
700 total units.

1054
02:08:44,390 --> 02:08:46,670
how does that number get? So let me explain this. So if you assume that you you had to change ken view.

1055
02:08:50,150 --> 02:08:50,150
and ken view is a unique property because we're doing on site inclusionary plus the
Extension of controls and there's bonuses attached to that.

1056
02:08:57,030 --> 02:08:57,030
we get redevelopment bonuses, we get extensions now,
We don't get the extension.

1057
02:09:01,430 --> 02:09:04,710
we get the redevelopment bonuses. You take all that away. If you were just going to replace it with family rentals,
It just zone a spot without any concept plan.

1058
02:09:09,910 --> 02:09:09,910
you just said this is a field that's in the sewer service. Er we're going to do that. To
Replace it you would need 706 units because you would only 20% for 15% set aside on that

1059
02:09:19,750 --> 02:09:19,750
straight zone, because they're set aside because the set aside 15% set aside. So that
Translates to 700 units.

1060
02:09:24,470 --> 02:09:24,470
it's the freelander given that's given. So I wanted to make sure because you were talking
About replacing can view the implications of that.

1061
02:09:31,470 --> 02:09:35,030
or how many sites or what size site would you need for that. And this plan tried to accommodate, economize on the land and new units to try to maximize
The bonuses in the production there.

1062
02:09:42,830 --> 02:09:42,830
so that just gives you a sense of and it's not easy to find a site where you could or two
Sites where you could do 350 units each.

1063
02:09:50,230 --> 02:09:52,590
it's not an easy job. How big is that site? I'm sorry. Total acreage can view is the developable part.

1064
02:09:58,020 --> 02:09:58,020
it's 160. Two. My plan is to big.

1065
02:10:08,780 --> 02:10:11,700
while they're looking. Any other questions? That's good. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And as soon as they have it,
They'll they'll yell it out.

1066
02:10:20,980 --> 02:10:20,980
thank you. Hey, sherry. Could you see who's next on the list while there?

1067
02:10:27,980 --> 02:10:27,980
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Christina. Christina. Thank you.

1068
02:10:35,180 --> 02:10:35,180
yes. Okay. Hello, everyone. I'm christina. Fire,
32 east ridge road.

1069
02:10:42,180 --> 02:10:46,060
ma'am, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful. Yes. Thank you. So I only learned about this meeting an hour ago.

1070
02:10:55,210 --> 02:10:55,210
but it seems, or most of us are trying to do the right thing for this township.

1071
02:11:01,690 --> 02:11:01,690
one question. When did this, however many page document come out with all the can you
Stuff on it?

1072
02:11:10,770 --> 02:11:10,770
like when was it made available on the website?

1073
02:11:15,450 --> 02:11:15,450
june 13th. Was there any news of this like site plan and everything about can view prior
To june 13th?

1074
02:11:27,610 --> 02:11:27,610
we did the information session in january where we talked about the overall numbers.

1075
02:11:31,850 --> 02:11:35,170
we did not specifically talk about can view at that time. Okay. How many people in this room are here? Mostly about the can view site.

1076
02:11:41,850 --> 02:11:41,850
okay. So I guess ten days would have been better than one hour to prepare for this.

1077
02:11:49,330 --> 02:11:49,330
but as being an optimist, I don't think we can stop.

1078
02:11:57,450 --> 02:12:01,010
my question is, has anyone to multiple questions? Has anyone looked at the impact of 417 housing units in the environmentally sensitive
Area?

1079
02:12:09,090 --> 02:12:09,090
ken view is at the foot of the southland preserves,
Which is the largest contiguous green space,

1080
02:12:16,570 --> 02:12:16,570
to my knowledge, between new york and philadelphia.

1081
02:12:25,530 --> 02:12:25,530
okay. One of the things I would add is that the township has bought a significant amount
Of land up on the mountain to preserve that contiguous tree

1082
02:12:35,450 --> 02:12:35,450
canopy that you're referring to at a significant investment,
And remains committed to it to this day.

1083
02:12:42,170 --> 02:12:42,170
so true. And that's. Yes. And I we moved to this township because of this township's
Commitment to the environment,

1084
02:12:51,560 --> 02:12:51,560
to the open space and nature. So wooden and I know 700 is a lot more than 417.

1085
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:01,200
but could we do everything in our power to leave that environmentally sensitive area with
Wetlands that

1086
02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:11,200
is here, which would a lot of it been taken away by the proposed developer and find some
Other

1087
02:13:20,640 --> 02:13:20,640
area which is more near transportation, which is already more developed and away from this
Area.

1088
02:13:30,160 --> 02:13:30,160
I think it behooves us to do that. Okay. And if we don't

1089
02:13:40,000 --> 02:13:40,000
do that and the zoning comes up, and what what if we all get together and say,
No, we don't want this zoning to change.

1090
02:13:51,440 --> 02:13:51,440
then we have this in the plan. Does that put us at risk for litigation since we already
Have it in the plan?

1091
02:13:59,120 --> 02:13:59,120
well earlier we talked about how the contract purchaser has a plan to develop what they
Call buy.

1092
02:14:06,360 --> 02:14:06,360
right? So under the current zoning. So I don't know if you were here for that part of the
Discussion that we were having because so something's going to change that can be right

1093
02:14:15,520 --> 02:14:15,520
that that we understand. Right. But taking and looking at the environmental and traffic
And all sorts of impact of a 417 unit

1094
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:25,400
housing complex versus a research complex versus light manufacturing.

1095
02:14:32,960 --> 02:14:32,960
the trucks that you were talking about. Can I ask what the definition of a truck is?

1096
02:14:37,680 --> 02:14:37,680
is it an 18 wheeler? Is it it the big dump trucks that go down,
Up and down 601 from the mine.

1097
02:14:43,720 --> 02:14:43,720
is it an amazon delivery truck? Right. It it could be a box truck.

1098
02:14:49,630 --> 02:14:51,990
it. What happened to you? It could be a box truck. It could be a tractor trailer. It could run the gamut depending on the user of.

1099
02:14:57,430 --> 02:14:57,430
they were doing flex space. So there would be units where someone might be creating one
Thing,

1100
02:15:04,750 --> 02:15:04,750
and they do need a small box trucks to come and bring various parts that they assemble.

1101
02:15:11,110 --> 02:15:11,110
and then maybe once they're all assembled, a large tractor trailer takes it off of the
Site.

1102
02:15:16,310 --> 02:15:16,310
so it really they, the traffic engineer kind of uses an average number,
So it could be less.

1103
02:15:24,910 --> 02:15:27,830
it probably it could be worse, depending on the actual users. And we can't zone the users and users that go into that building so they could change.

1104
02:15:35,190 --> 02:15:35,190
so that so the answer is it could be it could be anything.

1105
02:15:39,870 --> 02:15:39,870
it could be anything. Okay. But as barbara pointed out,
Looking at the traffic from 417 housing units should be compared to that

1106
02:15:49,060 --> 02:15:49,060
420. So I don't think we've done a good comparison for all the different possibilities of
This can view property,

1107
02:15:59,260 --> 02:15:59,260
right? So if and I it sounds like we have a week to do this.

1108
02:16:06,220 --> 02:16:06,220
it's the 23rd. And by the 30th we need to approve this part plan.

1109
02:16:10,260 --> 02:16:10,260
realistically we have a couple of years to get any developments approved.

1110
02:16:18,940 --> 02:16:18,940
okay. Tonight is about approving a plan for affordable housing because I think most of us
In this room

1111
02:16:28,420 --> 02:16:28,420
understand that. And I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of line that there will be some change,

1112
02:16:34,180 --> 02:16:34,180
but I feel probably that most of us in this room are against the housing unit parked in a
Rural area.

1113
02:16:42,900 --> 02:16:42,900
if you go between 200 and 6 down to 518. It is rural all the way.

1114
02:16:49,180 --> 02:16:52,300
it is one of the most beautiful parts of montgomery. People even living in montgomery sometimes don't know that area back there.

1115
02:16:57,540 --> 02:16:57,540
so I'm going to go off book here, I apologize.

1116
02:17:02,340 --> 02:17:02,340
and michael said it earlier. Let's say that I think we probably all agree that this kind
Of stinks.

1117
02:17:13,540 --> 02:17:13,540
the alternative is, though, that a developer,
Maybe not the ones buying, can view today.

1118
02:17:21,420 --> 02:17:21,420
but a year from now, if we do not have a program or a plan,
Approved developer could come in and say they want to build

1119
02:17:31,020 --> 02:17:31,020
1500 houses and that that would not come to this board.

1120
02:17:36,140 --> 02:17:36,140
that would not go to the township committee. It would go to a judge and they would decide.

1121
02:17:43,130 --> 02:17:46,130
yes. And I now understand that having sat through this meeting. So I appreciate that. So we're basically between a rock and a hard place,
And we have to make the best of what we

1122
02:17:55,690 --> 02:17:55,690
have. And usually the best solution is when everybody's unhappy.

1123
02:18:04,410 --> 02:18:04,410
okay. The last, I guess, question, question. How many of you will

1124
02:18:14,250 --> 02:18:14,250
be more attentive to what's going on in this township and looking at the websites more
Frequently and looking at every single

1125
02:18:24,170 --> 02:18:27,570
piece of paper? That's that's a question for for everybody. Not not here. Until an hour ago I was not that we support that.

1126
02:18:32,810 --> 02:18:32,810
so all right. We will solve this. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1127
02:18:38,930 --> 02:18:38,930
stephen. Voorhees. Stephen. I'm sorry. Stephen.

1128
02:18:48,330 --> 02:18:48,330
lauren. Paul. I'm sorry. Paul. I gotta put paul s paul.

1129
02:18:53,370 --> 02:18:53,370
s paul. Let's do this. Hi. My name is paul shaw.

1130
02:19:00,610 --> 02:19:00,610
I live in skillman. Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.

1131
02:19:05,770 --> 02:19:05,770
yes, I do. Thank you. So, actually, I just want to just piggyback a little bit on what
Christina was just talking about and just ask about timeline,

1132
02:19:14,090 --> 02:19:14,090
because, again, for me, it was found out about this an hour ago.

1133
02:19:18,210 --> 02:19:18,210
so at the very beginning, you talked about milestones for,
For, like, how we got to where we are here and where we are here.

1134
02:19:24,890 --> 02:19:24,890
we have an 800 page report that was provided for general consumption ten days ago.

1135
02:19:31,050 --> 02:19:31,050
presumably the planning committee has taken those ten days and poured exhaustively over
Those 800 pages over ten days.

1136
02:19:39,800 --> 02:19:39,800
I just want to sort of walk backwards. So the milestone you had before that was in late
March.

1137
02:19:46,400 --> 02:19:46,400
what happened in late march? The court issued an order approving the number of affordable
Housing.

1138
02:19:53,320 --> 02:19:53,320
okay, but it wasn't a meeting of any sort that had any input from.

1139
02:19:57,720 --> 02:20:01,560
no, it was it was a it was a an order from the court. It was an order from the court. Okay. And that's when the town understood that its number
Was locked in.

1140
02:20:05,960 --> 02:20:05,960
okay. And so a court ordered, okay, lock in this number late march.

1141
02:20:10,800 --> 02:20:14,760
and then prior to that, we're talking a handful of january dates. Was it? Well, in january, there was a public information meeting about what we're facing
In terms of this mandate from the state and how we're going to,

1142
02:20:22,600 --> 02:20:25,800
you know, that we need to solve it. It talked about the need. By the end of january that the township had to stipulate to a number,
And they did that by resolution.

1143
02:20:31,320 --> 02:20:31,320
and the resolution also said it would participate in the program.

1144
02:20:35,350 --> 02:20:35,350
we waited for the the court to solidify that through their order,
But.

1145
02:20:41,630 --> 02:20:45,390
and then the next deadline is june 30th. Okay,
Great. So correct me if I'm wrong, then. So to summarize in in january.

1146
02:20:50,550 --> 02:20:53,190
like the number was sort of discussed and decided. And then in march a court said like okay, lock in this number.

1147
02:20:58,430 --> 02:20:58,430
and then on june 13th we're provided an 800 page document for a june 23rd the

1148
02:21:08,150 --> 02:21:11,910
meeting in order to approve it by june 30th. That's correct. That's correct. Okay. And this was this was like,
Is there something in the process that I'm not understanding that like,

1149
02:21:20,950 --> 02:21:20,950
that was like that this could have been done in a sort of more collaborative kind of way
Or I don't know.

1150
02:21:30,150 --> 02:21:30,150
I think the timeline that you discussed is set by the state,
Which is why michael probably hasn't slept.

1151
02:21:37,630 --> 02:21:40,390
you know, working on these 800 pages is hard to do. Yeah. So we understand where you're coming from,
And the timelines are really not reasonable.

1152
02:21:48,550 --> 02:21:48,550
yeah. And to give you an idea, the third round plan probably took a year or more to do it
Because we didn't have the gun to our head.

1153
02:21:56,110 --> 02:21:56,110
can can. Can I ask you a clarifying question then,
Miss aaron, if you just said as a testimony that the timeline is not reasonable,

1154
02:22:04,550 --> 02:22:04,550
can then we. Is it possible that the township committee could file a lawsuit stating just
That,

1155
02:22:10,510 --> 02:22:13,110
and we don't have to make a decision by june 30th? Is that is that a reasonable thing to do? You just.

1156
02:22:16,270 --> 02:22:16,270
I. Think so. There are towns that have asked for

1157
02:22:25,870 --> 02:22:25,870
extensions who have brutal circumstances in terms of,
You know, whatever's going on and there hasn't been any success.

1158
02:22:34,060 --> 02:22:34,060
you have to fight with the court. You have to file a motion to extend the time period and
The time frames that have been mentioned have been like

1159
02:22:43,900 --> 02:22:43,900
90 days, 60 days, things like that. I can't speak personally.

1160
02:22:48,780 --> 02:22:48,780
I know one's pending and it's june 30th, so you're going to have we're going to have no
Way to know.

1161
02:22:54,900 --> 02:22:54,900
but the attorneys that I've worked with have said they've had very limited success with
Any kind of extension.

1162
02:23:00,060 --> 02:23:00,060
it would have to be a circumstance that was truly extraordinary from what I'm hearing.

1163
02:23:05,580 --> 02:23:09,460
but it doesn't mean that you couldn't file. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Just a just a just a quick time check.

1164
02:23:16,900 --> 02:23:16,900
it's 724, and the meeting will go to eight. And we will have to continue it to thursday
Night to make sure everybody gets heard.

1165
02:23:26,820 --> 02:23:26,820
so, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What? Fire! Fire!

1166
02:23:37,850 --> 02:23:37,850
oh, lauren. Long.

1167
02:23:48,570 --> 02:23:48,570
lauren. Long. Grandview 322 grandview road. And,
Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.

1168
02:23:56,330 --> 02:23:56,330
yes, I do. Thank you. So, it's been very interesting to listen to this.

1169
02:24:01,010 --> 02:24:01,010
my understanding is that we have to commit to some lockdown numbers,
Like by the end of this month.

1170
02:24:09,170 --> 02:24:12,570
and those locked in numbers include, like, for instance,
The 400. And so how housing units from can view. Is that correct.

1171
02:24:19,010 --> 02:24:19,010
can view does contain in the plan 417 total units on site.

1172
02:24:24,650 --> 02:24:24,650
so if if something happens and they can't do the can view,
Be it.

1173
02:24:28,810 --> 02:24:28,810
they don't get zoning permissions or they run out of money or something like that.

1174
02:24:33,130 --> 02:24:33,130
do we still have the obligation to find some other similar set of housing units that will
Meet the requirements?

1175
02:24:40,730 --> 02:24:40,730
yes. So I mean, for instance, if ken view had some other brilliant use on the property or
Something.

1176
02:24:45,850 --> 02:24:45,850
yeah, I just put it on the record that if you wanted to replace ken view with just a
Straight zoning of 15% set aside,

1177
02:24:53,450 --> 02:24:57,330
you'd require a site that could accommodate 706 units. Wow. Okay. Anyway the only other question to have is we talked about 400 and some odd
Trucks.

1178
02:25:04,250 --> 02:25:04,250
if we had used a light manufacturing at ken view.

1179
02:25:10,450 --> 02:25:10,450
what was the number of trucks that johnson and johnson had on the road during the same,
You know,

1180
02:25:16,010 --> 02:25:16,010
during their peak? I don't have that number,
But it must have been.

1181
02:25:22,970 --> 02:25:22,970
okay. So I guess the only other thing is, do we have.

1182
02:25:29,520 --> 02:25:29,520
you said you had an estimate of the number of cars that we put on for the new population,
If we did,

1183
02:25:35,360 --> 02:25:35,360
with the 400 and some houses or you have that somewhere number that they gave us was based
On their original of 617 units,

1184
02:25:45,320 --> 02:25:45,320
and the number of cars would have been 4065 for 24 hour period.

1185
02:25:51,320 --> 02:25:51,320
is that per hour? I mean, per day? Yes. Okay.

1186
02:25:57,880 --> 02:25:57,880
I'm sorry. Sherry, when you say 4000 odd, are you talking about trips or.

1187
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:06,360
yes, trips a day. A day? Because the people in the back of ontario.

1188
02:26:12,240 --> 02:26:12,240
yes. Thank you. According to the traffic summary sheet that the developer gave us at 617
17

1189
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:22,120
total units. The total number of trips in a 24 hour period was 4065.

1190
02:26:29,480 --> 02:26:29,480
at full buildout for the cam view site as the light industrial,
It was 7820 for car

1191
02:26:39,480 --> 02:26:39,480
trips and 402 truck trips. Wow.

1192
02:26:50,720 --> 02:26:50,720
I have no other questions. Okay. Maria. Coachman.

1193
02:27:00,880 --> 02:27:00,880
hi. Maria councilman, 139 fairview road. Ma'am,
Do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.

1194
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:07,800
yep. Thank you. First. Thank you. I know a lot of you are volunteers,
And I appreciate it,

1195
02:27:13,640 --> 02:27:16,800
because that would be. That would be all. All of us. And and I'm going to add more grief. I'm sorry.

1196
02:27:21,110 --> 02:27:21,110
who determined the lot sizes can view since I'm in that neighborhood because my
Neighborhood is mountain rural.

1197
02:27:30,710 --> 02:27:30,710
we have ten acre zoning, and you want to put something with lots marked and feet right
Next door to our area.

1198
02:27:40,270 --> 02:27:40,270
I actually counted within a mile of the driveway of grandview circular.

1199
02:27:46,870 --> 02:27:46,870
there's like 300 houses, and you want to put 400 on 160 acres.

1200
02:27:52,830 --> 02:27:52,830
can you justify how they came up with these tiny things?

1201
02:27:57,710 --> 02:27:57,710
lots. So we had alluded to a higher number that they came up with in terms of a site
Suitability.

1202
02:28:05,630 --> 02:28:05,630
so the township was not agreeing to 600 plus units.

1203
02:28:12,470 --> 02:28:12,470
and so the total number of units is backed into from what is needed on the property.

1204
02:28:17,630 --> 02:28:17,630
so it's a mix of single family townhomes and so we should be grateful it's not 600.

1205
02:28:25,300 --> 02:28:29,300
and we're getting 400. I did not say that I was just. You asked how we arrived at the total lot number.

1206
02:28:32,460 --> 02:28:32,460
another question. Another question. Your calculation of the 600 something houses that
Would needed to be replaced can view does that.

1207
02:28:42,100 --> 02:28:42,100
the view developer is proposing to give money for the buybacks.

1208
02:28:46,900 --> 02:28:50,380
and without that buyback money you would need more housing. Is that your cash? It's threefold actually. It's it's the extension of controls that are
Off site.

1209
02:28:55,700 --> 02:28:55,700
so we would have to load them back in. It's the law requires a 15% set aside.

1210
02:29:02,660 --> 02:29:02,660
so that means that there's more more market rate units to get to the number that we would
Need to make up.

1211
02:29:08,140 --> 02:29:12,100
and we're at what set aside with both the on site and off site. We're at 26. So that's that differential. And isn't there?

1212
02:29:17,340 --> 02:29:20,380
there was a third. Not to cut you short, but I get it. I'm trying to speed it up. In addition to that question,
You are putting in 20.

1213
02:29:27,820 --> 02:29:27,820
I don't know, it's 22 extensions and 24 surplus as extra stuff.

1214
02:29:34,820 --> 02:29:34,820
that's 46 units. You're putting 70. That's more than half of what's happening at at ken
View.

1215
02:29:43,220 --> 02:29:46,860
and I do understand the ken view has to be developed. I get that we always knew that. We've lived there 33 years.

1216
02:29:51,140 --> 02:29:51,140
but I don't understand the desire, the desire to change the entire character of art.

1217
02:29:58,700 --> 02:29:58,700
we chose to live there because of the open vistas,
Because of the large housing lots and going to

1218
02:30:08,020 --> 02:30:08,020
change. Change the nature of that part of town.

1219
02:30:13,580 --> 02:30:13,580
and my belief is that just going to be the start of the creep that happened on the other
Side of 206,

1220
02:30:20,210 --> 02:30:20,210
which is why I would not live there. It's just not my choice of where I want to live.

1221
02:30:24,610 --> 02:30:24,610
it's fine for a lot of people, but I chose to live in an area that was rural,
And you want to go against that fairly severely

1222
02:30:35,170 --> 02:30:35,170
and change that dynamic. I understand some of it does have to do with the sewer service
Area.

1223
02:30:40,250 --> 02:30:40,250
and so the town has tried to reduce where development can be through limiting the sewer
Service area limits.

1224
02:30:49,810 --> 02:30:49,810
so all about poop. It's all about poop. I get it,
I and I understand that and I understand that we are in an

1225
02:30:59,690 --> 02:30:59,690
area that's heavily, you know, it's all septic and wells which goes to another issue
That's for down the road of if

1226
02:31:09,450 --> 02:31:09,450
there's going to affect our aquifer, etc., etc..

1227
02:31:15,490 --> 02:31:15,490
sorry. Your comment about the tax revenue is higher from residential than from what jay aa
Or

1228
02:31:25,290 --> 02:31:25,290
can view currently. But in my 33 years of living here,
The township school district has gone from 1500 students to

1229
02:31:35,170 --> 02:31:35,170
5000 something students, which has increased my taxes over 400%.

1230
02:31:41,330 --> 02:31:41,330
and I don't see how getting a little more money for the houses will change that tax
Revenue.

1231
02:31:48,930 --> 02:31:48,930
and I wish you would explain how you think that's going to benefit our town.

1232
02:31:57,210 --> 02:31:57,210
and thank you. That's all for now. Do you want to talk about how that works?

1233
02:32:05,570 --> 02:32:05,570
just before the next person comes up I just want to clarify the 22 units,
The extensions that we have to purchase.

1234
02:32:11,680 --> 02:32:11,680
in the fourth round, we cannot use in the fourth round because we have a senior cap.

1235
02:32:16,960 --> 02:32:20,520
so we those will be banked for a future round,
Right? We're limited to those. Yes. In this there are 24 surplus units which gives us that
Flexibility.

1236
02:32:28,120 --> 02:32:31,120
should we have a little slide in any of our other areas. Right. We have a quick question. Do we have any recourse?

1237
02:32:34,280 --> 02:32:34,280
I heard it mentioned before that pike run decided they didn't want to be involved in the
Equation or the extension of

1238
02:32:43,640 --> 02:32:43,640
controls. Do we have any recourse for properties like that,
Or is it just.

1239
02:32:50,680 --> 02:32:50,680
yeah, I don't want to be involved. Leave me alone. Or is there anything that we can do in
The event that and then this is just hypothetical,

1240
02:32:56,640 --> 02:32:56,640
that the can of you site doesn't, you know, go through it goes before the board and we,
We make a decision that,

1241
02:33:04,400 --> 02:33:04,400
you know, it's not going to happen in terms of the zoning. And we need the,
The affordable credits.

1242
02:33:11,670 --> 02:33:11,670
is there any way that we could sort of discuss that with other properties?

1243
02:33:15,710 --> 02:33:19,390
I just thought about that when I heard about the bike run thing. Other properties? Yes. But the the extension of controls at pike run is governed by a
Series of documents that are legal documents and

1244
02:33:29,350 --> 02:33:29,350
recorded documents, and they don't give us the the right to sue essentially over that
Extension.

1245
02:33:37,030 --> 02:33:37,030
okay. Jake schwartzman. How's it going? Jake schwartzman

1246
02:33:47,190 --> 02:33:47,190
920 cherry hill road. Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will
Be truthful.

1247
02:33:52,990 --> 02:33:52,990
yes. Thank you. So I just want to preface by saying this is kind of my first time at a,
At a at something like this.

1248
02:34:00,790 --> 02:34:04,030
I don't I don't quite know what I kind of heard about this last night. I don't even fully know what this is. I just heard about what's going to happen to the
Kennedy thing. I don't know who all these people are or anything. I'm pretty new to this,

1249
02:34:11,870 --> 02:34:11,870
as I think some people here might be. But my question.

1250
02:34:19,070 --> 02:34:19,070
yes. So I, I feel like it. My question has kind of changed as I'm sitting here listening
To everybody's questions,

1251
02:34:27,270 --> 02:34:27,270
and it's kind of like, it sounds like we're being almost bullied into this in that we have
To like,

1252
02:34:34,430 --> 02:34:34,430
I know we have to add some sort of some sort of housing,
Low income housing or something.

1253
02:34:40,590 --> 02:34:44,190
but like, why can view why do we have to redevelop it? People, people are saying we have to redevelop it. Why can't you just why can't it just be
Because we have power as the town to say,

1254
02:34:51,070 --> 02:34:51,070
no, you can't rezone this. And no, like I just,
I think there's so many different consequences on a larger scale,

1255
02:34:59,110 --> 02:34:59,110
which I can talk about if I won't get to the comments,
But I can talk about it later.

1256
02:35:04,750 --> 02:35:04,750
but like, I think there's so many consequences and more things that this says other than
Just,

1257
02:35:10,060 --> 02:35:10,060
oh, we're putting up more housing, like this is kind of a big deal and messes up the whole
I just think it's a really awful idea.

1258
02:35:16,220 --> 02:35:19,140
and it's like, how is there anything we can do about this? Because it's really being made sound like we're being bullied into this or forced into
This.

1259
02:35:23,620 --> 02:35:23,620
that's really what it sounds like to me. And unfortunately,
That bullying started, I think,

1260
02:35:27,900 --> 02:35:27,900
somewhere around 1976, in the state. So but why does it have to be?

1261
02:35:34,700 --> 02:35:34,700
why does it have to turn into. I went to preschool actually in that in that I've lived
Here my entire life.

1262
02:35:39,540 --> 02:35:39,540
monti, class of 2021 I went to preschool, the jnj preschool.

1263
02:35:43,620 --> 02:35:47,060
bright, bright horizons. That's back there. Why do we have to change it? Why? Why does it have to be all this, this housing that's going to screw up the southland
Mountains,

1264
02:35:52,660 --> 02:35:52,660
which is beautiful. This whole town is beautiful. But the southland mountains. That's so
Beautiful. Why do we have to put housing there? Why are we. Why does it sound like we're

1265
02:35:59,500 --> 02:35:59,500
being bullied into this? Someone purchased the property,
Right?

1266
02:36:03,820 --> 02:36:03,820
right. So can you. Is selling the property, the purchase,
The company buying the property has an option,

1267
02:36:11,420 --> 02:36:15,100
a concept to develop it under the current zoning. So they have the right to do that. We kind of refer to it as the bi-rite plan.

1268
02:36:20,060 --> 02:36:20,060
and that was where the truck traffic conversation was,
Was abuzz about.

1269
02:36:24,340 --> 02:36:24,340
so their redevelopment could either be under the current zoning,
Which we don't have legal authority to stop them from doing.

1270
02:36:31,900 --> 02:36:31,900
or an alternative. Who's in charge of the zoning that,
That says they can't rezone it because that's the municipal land use law.

1271
02:36:39,260 --> 02:36:39,260
so the state says to each town, we're giving you the right to zone.

1272
02:36:44,060 --> 02:36:47,540
this is how you will. This is how these are the rules you will follow. And so the property is zoned limited manufacturing now.

1273
02:36:50,740 --> 02:36:50,740
so they have the right to to develop it and redevelop it under that current zoning.

1274
02:36:55,420 --> 02:36:58,140
so it's above the town it's state it's state level that zones. It does that. So yeah the town zoned it limited manufacturing when j and j first developed
The property,

1275
02:37:04,570 --> 02:37:04,570
and it has stayed that zoning through all these years.

1276
02:37:08,810 --> 02:37:08,810
the town had hoped that they can view, and through their sale would find a buyer that
Would be similar to what operation is leaving.

1277
02:37:17,770 --> 02:37:17,770
but that did not happen. The company that's buying it has two options that they've put
Forth to the town.

1278
02:37:25,410 --> 02:37:25,410
we can develop it under the current zoning, which would be this flex industrial space or a
Residential,

1279
02:37:33,130 --> 02:37:33,130
which would require zoning. So they can do they can do the flex industrial under the
Current zoning.

1280
02:37:39,890 --> 02:37:43,890
and the housing would need to be done through a zone change. So it could be done through affordable housing.

1281
02:37:47,130 --> 02:37:47,130
it could be done. They could sue the town and say we,
You know, we can't develop it as a commercial.

1282
02:37:54,610 --> 02:37:54,610
so or you let's say they, they applied to do their buy right plan and the township denied
The zoning.

1283
02:38:01,040 --> 02:38:01,040
sorry. The planning board denied it. They can sue and say to the judge this is a permitted
Use.

1284
02:38:08,640 --> 02:38:11,080
you have to. You know, let me let me do this. We'd likely be overturned unless there was something,
You know, and then they have some right to develop it in some way.

1285
02:38:17,720 --> 02:38:17,720
so if it's not under the current zoning, it could,
You know, it could be housing then.

1286
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:23,160
so we can't zone for farmland or open space so that it could just remain,
You know

1287
02:38:33,200 --> 02:38:33,200
open and I guess a decaying office building because they wouldn't at that point take it
Down.

1288
02:38:39,040 --> 02:38:39,040
okay. I'm still confused. I'm not. No, no, I hear what you're saying,
But I don't know how to I don't know how to argue it because I'm not I don't know I don't

1289
02:38:45,560 --> 02:38:49,040
know how to. I don't know how it all works. Any alternatives? I'm not a politician. I'm just, you know. But I just think. I think it's really important that we fight hard to
To keep it how it is,

1290
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,840
I don't know. That's, that's that's basically the moral of my whole thing. I think everybody here agrees with me. Okay. Lawrence,
Can I.

1291
02:39:05,400 --> 02:39:07,960
can I actually, I mean, you you just raised a point,
Laurie. Actually, that. That caused me to ask a question in a different way.

1292
02:39:12,480 --> 02:39:12,480
I think I've already asked it, but if if. If johnson and johnson never left.

1293
02:39:18,120 --> 02:39:18,120
if ken view never sold their property, what would be the alternative then?

1294
02:39:23,240 --> 02:39:23,240
where? What is your what would would would have been the town's plan if johnson and
Johnson was still a viable property?

1295
02:39:36,240 --> 02:39:36,240
in in the past, we sometimes have had like, backup alternatives.

1296
02:39:41,760 --> 02:39:44,840
we didn't have any backup alternatives for this plan. So if this were to fall through, you would come we would come back to the planning board
To amend the plan to say this particular project

1297
02:39:54,480 --> 02:39:54,480
mechanism isn't working, and we would need to come up with another idea.

1298
02:39:59,830 --> 02:39:59,830
but but the numbers would stay the same. I mean,
Well, under michael's calculation, we would be looking for land that could accommodate

1299
02:40:08,710 --> 02:40:12,190
706 correct housing units. Right. That's what I mean. That's right. Yeah, but. And I don't want multiple pieces.

1300
02:40:16,750 --> 02:40:16,750
yeah, I think I would like to talk too much. Thank you.

1301
02:40:20,990 --> 02:40:20,990
hello. We are the cg from coldstream court at skillman.

1302
02:40:26,910 --> 02:40:26,910
all righty. Do you both swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.

1303
02:40:31,270 --> 02:40:31,270
yes. Thank you. We do. Thank you. Voila. So I was I was at this at this meeting since the
Beginning,

1304
02:40:40,790 --> 02:40:40,790
and I listened to the whole the whole meeting.

1305
02:40:45,390 --> 02:40:45,390
and I was wondering if you're going to do more work for the township or if your job is
Stopping today.

1306
02:40:55,420 --> 02:40:57,580
I didn't understand the question. Both of you. I mean, have you finished your mission? And is it the summary of what you propose?

1307
02:41:04,780 --> 02:41:08,300
or are you continuing to work for the township? Yeah. So first of all, the adoption of the housing plan doesn't end the process,
Right?

1308
02:41:13,500 --> 02:41:17,260
the adoption of the housing plan, we still there's still ordinances that need to be done. There's agreements that would need to be done. And over the next,
You know, 4 to 8 months those things would happen.

1309
02:41:24,420 --> 02:41:24,420
that okay. But your job I would like to know you your job.

1310
02:41:29,180 --> 02:41:29,180
are you continuing to recommend something or does it stop today?

1311
02:41:33,300 --> 02:41:33,300
was it your final recommendation? What you shared with us today?

1312
02:41:38,180 --> 02:41:38,180
let me be very clear. As a as the consulting affordable housing planner,
My job is to work with the town to help develop a plan that fits the rules and the law.

1313
02:41:47,900 --> 02:41:47,900
and that's what I've done. The decisions about how these sites can in here,
That's.

1314
02:41:52,580 --> 02:41:56,300
I'm an adviser. I'm not a decider. Yeah. So I work with the town. Thank you. They're behest. Thank you. So I want to tell you you gave me the impression
That you were

1315
02:42:06,100 --> 02:42:09,220
paid by the developer and not by the township. Because you you to you, the people you represent.

1316
02:42:14,460 --> 02:42:14,460
because all that you showed us was one planner,
One choice.

1317
02:42:21,220 --> 02:42:21,220
let me finish. Let me finish. We don't have a lot of time.

1318
02:42:26,060 --> 02:42:26,060
so you you you said there is there. Is there a question?

1319
02:42:31,660 --> 02:42:31,660
because you have. Yeah, it's my question. So I haven't I mean,
This is I have not finished with my question.

1320
02:42:37,540 --> 02:42:37,540
okay. So you know, we are attached to this site.

1321
02:42:44,260 --> 02:42:44,260
you were trying to hide during the whole meeting that it was owned by johnson and johnson,

1322
02:42:49,540 --> 02:42:52,770
but the deed is owned by johnson and johnson. So you are seeing can view. Can view. Can view is almost gone.

1323
02:42:56,690 --> 02:42:56,690
okay. So you said earlier that the developer said that there would be 4000 trucks.

1324
02:43:07,290 --> 02:43:07,290
so, you know, whatever the number. Yeah. So the thing is,
Can you be a little more objective instead of,

1325
02:43:17,210 --> 02:43:17,210
like, saying what the developer said, can you please,
Like, like have a multiple what if what did we do to have a

1326
02:43:26,890 --> 02:43:26,890
research group take over the site? What effort has been made?

1327
02:43:32,130 --> 02:43:32,130
all the what? The impression you gave us tonight is that all the efforts were made to
Build additional housing.

1328
02:43:40,010 --> 02:43:40,010
that's it. This is all. This is the only solution.

1329
02:43:44,770 --> 02:43:44,770
this is not the solution. Ma'am, I have to limit you to a two question if you have if you
Have comments and you want to just talk rationally,

1330
02:43:53,170 --> 02:43:56,450
that would be great. There's no reason to yell at anybody. I mean, there really isn't. Okay. Okay.

1331
02:44:07,010 --> 02:44:07,010
have you confirmed that the deed for that property is in the name of j and j right now,
And not can view?

1332
02:44:16,410 --> 02:44:19,890
what? What would it matter? We are dealing with the contract purchaser. Okay. So that goes to my next question. No, I'm dealing with the contract purchaser.

1333
02:44:24,450 --> 02:44:24,450
yeah. My next question is why are you dealing with the contract purchaser if the numbers
Won't change,

1334
02:44:30,370 --> 02:44:30,370
regardless of what the owner of the property is?

1335
02:44:34,850 --> 02:44:34,850
because why are we having conversations with the contract purchaser that hasn't is that
That's who's going to be owning the property?

1336
02:44:41,970 --> 02:44:41,970
well, they are contract purchasers, which means that it's not a done deal yet,
Right?

1337
02:44:48,280 --> 02:44:50,920
so we don't know if the deal is going to go through. So why are we dealing with them like they are going to be the owners?

1338
02:44:55,320 --> 02:44:58,280
ken view has said this is who you will be speaking with. We are no longer discussing the property. We're selling the property to this company.

1339
02:45:03,000 --> 02:45:03,000
right. But that property is only going to be purchased if they like what you decide.

1340
02:45:08,160 --> 02:45:08,160
so they you can make decisions that they're not going to like,
And then the contract won't go through and then it will remain as it is.

1341
02:45:15,200 --> 02:45:15,200
so they are very interested in buying the property under the current zoning.

1342
02:45:19,440 --> 02:45:19,440
yes. They'll just they'll just, you know, that's what they that's what they have.

1343
02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:27,160
let me let me get to my next question. I hear your answer. I'm just trying to move it along. Is there an advantage to being a part of the lawsuit?

1344
02:45:34,280 --> 02:45:34,280
to the extent that the court could decide that the participants in the lawsuit get a
Particular remedy,

1345
02:45:40,240 --> 02:45:40,240
that people who are not in the lawsuit won't get?

1346
02:45:47,110 --> 02:45:47,110
I mean I. Possible I mean if the if that litigation results in let's let's

1347
02:45:57,030 --> 02:45:57,030
make a proposition here. Let's say that that litigation results in a change to the fair
Housing act that impacts everybody.

1348
02:46:04,430 --> 02:46:04,430
right. But it could result in changes for the obligations of individual municipalities.

1349
02:46:10,390 --> 02:46:10,390
right. They're not they're challenging the law and not not just not just for their not
Just for theirs.

1350
02:46:17,790 --> 02:46:17,790
yeah. Last thing. The property of the form of municipal building.

1351
02:46:22,270 --> 02:46:22,270
could we change the zoning of that now to make it entirely low income and thereby relieve
The burden from other properties to it?

1352
02:46:32,070 --> 02:46:32,070
is it is it within your authority to change the zoning for that one piece of property?

1353
02:46:37,870 --> 02:46:37,870
so that I talked a little bit about why 100% percent affordable is not the best option for
The

1354
02:46:47,670 --> 02:46:47,670
town to pursue right now, including the strain on ems.

1355
02:46:52,670 --> 02:46:52,670
the cost to the taxpayers because our affordable housing.

1356
02:46:57,110 --> 02:46:57,110
what's the current zoning of the municipal building? The old municipal building. It's
Zoned ppe,

1357
02:47:02,750 --> 02:47:02,750
public parks and education. Okay. So we can at least make it residential with a high
Percentage.

1358
02:47:09,630 --> 02:47:09,630
now to make it easier for someone to come in and do a deal there and take some of the
Credits.

1359
02:47:16,550 --> 02:47:20,350
we would have a different 50 people that are in here. Okay. All right. That would say not in my backyard either,
Right.

1360
02:47:23,950 --> 02:47:23,950
okay. Diane. Got a quick one before diane gets up.

1361
02:47:32,710 --> 02:47:32,710
do do we have enough property to accommodate the number in the event that

1362
02:47:42,900 --> 02:47:42,900
can view is not approved. Are there enough lots or properties that we can engage

1363
02:47:52,700 --> 02:47:52,700
to to support the number in montgomery? So you would need to look at properties that have
Public water and public sewer.

1364
02:48:02,260 --> 02:48:02,260
and and they're large enough that could support 700 and some.

1365
02:48:07,380 --> 02:48:07,380
but the other thing is there's a practical reality.

1366
02:48:14,620 --> 02:48:14,620
is there a practical reality to the scale of a project that would actually be feasible in
Some places where you have very small sites,

1367
02:48:23,060 --> 02:48:23,060
you can get away with very small little developments that are inclusionary,
But when you're talking about 15%,

1368
02:48:28,220 --> 02:48:28,220
you need a project that can support at least at six,
Five, you know, five total units at six units per acre,

1369
02:48:34,460 --> 02:48:34,460
per the law. Okay. How many of those can you cobble together because you get one for every
One of those projects.

1370
02:48:40,540 --> 02:48:43,060
so there's a scalability that's important to this. In terms of the market and understanding that,
The other point I should make is that the the law really recognizes that the public,

1371
02:48:50,180 --> 02:48:50,180
the the private sector developers are largely the the entities that will create affordable
Housing,

1372
02:48:56,300 --> 02:48:56,300
whether they are the 100% affordable developer or the 15%,
You know, pulte or whatever they are.

1373
02:49:04,220 --> 02:49:07,900
it's the private sector that does most of this,
And the implementation is really there. So they call the tune in terms of whether it's feasible or not.

1374
02:49:11,900 --> 02:49:11,900
and if we have a site that's sitting there for eight years and it hasn't been built,
We're going to be replacing it. So they have to be they have to have feasibility. And when

1375
02:49:18,380 --> 02:49:21,540
the developers approach, we have to consider those. And those are the ones that are presumed to be feasible because the developer has said
This is what it takes.

1376
02:49:27,460 --> 02:49:27,460
right. That's a good answer. Okay. Again, time check.

1377
02:49:31,940 --> 02:49:35,540
nine minutes left. So I'll be quick, ma'am. Diane. Last name diane taylor, 213 grandview road. 14.

1378
02:49:39,890 --> 02:49:43,290
do you swear or affirm? Any testimony you may give will be truthful? Yes. Thank you. I do have just a couple questions.

1379
02:49:47,370 --> 02:49:47,370
well, I'll tell you. My father sold the property to jay and jay back in the 70s for the
Purpose of bringing in commercial

1380
02:49:56,850 --> 02:49:56,850
type. I don't know what you want to call it,
But instead of seeing 700 houses, a thousand houses,

1381
02:50:04,850 --> 02:50:04,850
whatever you're going to put in there. With that said,
I know it was brought up about the ten acre zoning.

1382
02:50:10,730 --> 02:50:10,730
is there a line in the southland mountains where that ten acre zoning begins and ends?

1383
02:50:18,370 --> 02:50:18,370
yes. Like, I mean, we live about a half mile from the jnj or.

1384
02:50:23,130 --> 02:50:23,130
sorry, can you. And if we we own the farm at the top of the hill,
And if we were to sell the farm,

1385
02:50:28,690 --> 02:50:28,690
we're ten acre zoning a half a mile away from this.

1386
02:50:32,770 --> 02:50:32,770
so what is that border? Or pretty much right at the at the end of the can view property.

1387
02:50:39,560 --> 02:50:39,560
so the sewer service area ends and that's where the limited manufacturing zone is.

1388
02:50:44,880 --> 02:50:44,880
so as you come up the hill, because they own a small little house that sits there on that
Hill.

1389
02:50:50,560 --> 02:50:50,560
so you're telling me to basically my property line,
My property line to fairview is where the ten acre zoning begins.

1390
02:51:05,080 --> 02:51:05,080
you're on the corner of grandview and fairview.

1391
02:51:10,000 --> 02:51:10,000
yes. And there's one small. You own the christmas tree farm,
Right?

1392
02:51:14,240 --> 02:51:18,000
and there's two small lots on in the front along grandview. Right. One is ours, and one is the neighbors right on the corner.

1393
02:51:21,000 --> 02:51:21,000
yeah. Okay. So, yes, your property line is the dividing line.

1394
02:51:25,240 --> 02:51:28,280
it's limited manufacturing to you. And then it goes to mr.. So based on the map that I had seen that it doesn't look like they're going to develop
From my property line to where that wetland sort of

1395
02:51:38,120 --> 02:51:38,120
begins down the road, correct? Yeah, I think the concept plan shows it in the area of the
Buildings.

1396
02:51:48,160 --> 02:51:48,160
right? Sorry, I have a zoning map. There, there,
There.

1397
02:51:53,680 --> 02:51:53,680
that's fine. Thank you. All right. Question answered.

1398
02:52:02,440 --> 02:52:02,440
okay. The other thing was, have you considered truly the impact on the schools?

1399
02:52:06,800 --> 02:52:06,800
I mean, I work for the school and we're nearing capacity,
And you're going to put in 400 and some odd more houses.

1400
02:52:15,120 --> 02:52:15,120
average two kids to the schools. It's going to eventually affect all of us as taxpayers,
Because you're going to ask for more taxes

1401
02:52:25,600 --> 02:52:25,600
so we can support the schools. So I can answer that.

1402
02:52:30,920 --> 02:52:30,920
the planning department does analyze that. We obtain the data directly from the school
District,

1403
02:52:37,350 --> 02:52:37,350
and we apply a public school children ratio to the housing type.

1404
02:52:42,150 --> 02:52:44,390
so if it's apartment, townhome, single family. So all of the ratios that we develop are based on the actual numbers of public school
Children residing in similar types of development in montgomery township.

1405
02:52:54,350 --> 02:52:54,350
we get that data from the school. Companion to that is the june 2024 enrollment report
That the board of education prepares,

1406
02:53:02,470 --> 02:53:05,030
and they work with demographer doctor ross haber. They have for years. So he concluded in his 2024 report that the montgomery township
Schools have decreased in enrollment between 2018 and 19 and

1407
02:53:14,470 --> 02:53:14,470
2023 and 24 school years. When reviewing earlier enrollments 2010 to 11,
The enrollment was considerably higher 5091.

1408
02:53:23,630 --> 02:53:26,470
that's the bubble that sometimes we used to talk about. This indicates that notwithstanding added programs or repurposing of classrooms that the
District will not have issues with instructional space over the next five years,

1409
02:53:36,030 --> 02:53:36,030
even with the impact of new housing added. The decline in enrollment should be mitigated,
But will only reach current enrollment levels.

1410
02:53:44,390 --> 02:53:44,390
okay, so that's from the board of education's demographer,
And he prepared that report.

1411
02:53:49,270 --> 02:53:49,270
so we did take the data that I talked about,
The number of public school children that are generated by different developments in in

1412
02:53:57,550 --> 02:53:57,550
town. So through the can view plan through number of single family townhomes

1413
02:54:06,630 --> 02:54:06,630
condos, apartments there. Would we project 291 public school children.

1414
02:54:13,870 --> 02:54:13,870
okay. And that has different and this is based this is based on actual student numbers of
Similar developments.

1415
02:54:21,670 --> 02:54:25,110
so country club estates that's our latest single family house. We take a look at every student that comes out of that development and we come up with
That ratio.

1416
02:54:31,540 --> 02:54:31,540
so I heard you say two per. It may be surprising,
But I'm telling you, we use actual data that we obtain from the school district.

1417
02:54:39,020 --> 02:54:39,020
that's 0.81 public school children per household.

1418
02:54:43,420 --> 02:54:46,660
for the townhomes we use the development across the street. That's 0.973 public school children. So that generates that's where we're coming up with
That 2.91.

1419
02:54:53,540 --> 02:54:57,260
it's based on actual data that we obtain from the school. And we apply that that ratio to this. And 23 orchard would be 40,
56 public school

1420
02:55:06,940 --> 02:55:06,940
children. With the combination of 144 market rate,
One and two bedroom units and 36 affordable

1421
02:55:16,740 --> 02:55:16,740
units. Now that between those two developments,
We're looking at 347.96 students.

1422
02:55:24,860 --> 02:55:27,610
we did also run the numbers on the do nothing scenario. We call it the do nothing scenario. It means that we don't adopt a plan and we allow
Developers,

1423
02:55:32,690 --> 02:55:32,690
if they're interested, they will come and they sue the township on the builder's remedy.

1424
02:55:37,210 --> 02:55:37,210
we use those numbers. And actually now I guess they're a little bit lower since I was
Using the for market rate per and those would be so this number will be lower

1425
02:55:47,090 --> 02:55:47,090
than if we ran it a different way. 952 public school children.

1426
02:55:53,930 --> 02:55:53,930
so our plan does have 63% less public school children than if we did nothing.

1427
02:56:02,090 --> 02:56:02,090
and we we allowed the developers to just, you know,
Come in with a plan and sue us, and we go before the judge to do that.

1428
02:56:11,450 --> 02:56:11,450
and that number I just want to say will be higher because I was using a mark,
A different market rate,

1429
02:56:16,730 --> 02:56:20,570
the old market rate multiplier, which has increased. Okay. Last question is the sewage. Sewerage. I mean can you currently has their own
Self-contained contained

1430
02:56:30,570 --> 02:56:34,210
treatment plant. What is this builder's plan? Are they going to try to tap into the one are.

1431
02:56:37,450 --> 02:56:37,450
the one that the school is currently using which is a public one or city sewer?

1432
02:56:42,730 --> 02:56:42,730
we all have wells and skeptics up there. So,
You know, city sewer is something foreign to me a little bit.

1433
02:56:50,370 --> 02:56:50,370
but have you considered that impact on that system?

1434
02:56:55,890 --> 02:56:55,890
I didn't hear the what did you hear? The question is it has to do with the service area or
Will there be an impact on your septic and.

1435
02:57:03,210 --> 02:57:06,170
well, well, obviously there'll be an impact on septic and. Well, because it has to do with the aquifer. But my question is can you currently has
Their own treatment plan?

1436
02:57:12,610 --> 02:57:16,450
j and j have their own treatment hooked up to public sewer and public water. So there won't be an impact on the aquifer. They won't be drawing from the same aquifer
That your well does.

1437
02:57:21,290 --> 02:57:21,290
so it will be city water they're going to be connecting then to like the sullivan lake,
Which is what the school is at that septic.

1438
02:57:28,400 --> 02:57:28,400
yes. That the the skillman village plan, gilman village,
Sullivan lake, depending how long you lived here.

1439
02:57:37,400 --> 02:57:37,400
I think one more question. And it's just with all the traffic,
Whether it's the trucks or the cars that you feel are going to be up and down

1440
02:57:46,960 --> 02:57:46,960
this country road. A traffic light at the bottom of grandview and 601 with the railroad
Track being there.

1441
02:57:54,080 --> 02:57:54,080
if you've ever driven on that road at any rush hour,
You can't make a left for a very long time.

1442
02:58:03,320 --> 02:58:03,320
so the our traffic engineer said, under any of the scenarios,
Whether it's the bi-rite, so the existing zoning,

1443
02:58:10,080 --> 02:58:10,080
if they were to redevelop under the existing zoning or a residential plan,
A traffic light is warranted at that intersection because years ago with j and j,

1444
02:58:19,960 --> 02:58:23,710
you had mentioned like 7000 cars in 24 hours. There were not 3500 employees at j&j. We didn't have that traffic at all.

1445
02:58:29,830 --> 02:58:29,830
I don't think they were saying that was the traffic under the if they were to redevelop
Under the flex,

1446
02:58:36,590 --> 02:58:40,070
the office, the not the not back then under j and j. No, but it would still be the same type of limited manufacturing or,
You know, trucks or whatever coming in and out of there and never at full

1447
02:58:51,630 --> 02:58:51,630
capacity that they were running. Was there ever that much traffic?

1448
02:58:55,950 --> 02:58:55,950
I what is it the it the institute of. I'm just thinking the traffic impact is going to be
Big either way,

1449
02:59:02,350 --> 02:59:02,350
whether it's housing and or left at limited manufacturing or and they'll you'll have to
Consider that because 601 will become the new

1450
02:59:11,750 --> 02:59:11,750
206. Thank you. Thank you. Sand car. Okay. Actually,
That was going to be the last

1451
02:59:21,470 --> 02:59:21,470
question, laurie, for tonight. We have reached 8:00.

1452
02:59:28,110 --> 02:59:28,110
we're close. I mean, is it is it possible that we would continue tonight?

1453
02:59:33,870 --> 02:59:33,870
I mean, I would be amenable to that. I think it's a preferable solution then coming back.

1454
02:59:42,950 --> 02:59:45,430
thursday is a limited time. We have a community event. That's the community we all want to participate in.

1455
02:59:48,630 --> 02:59:48,630
so I would extend my time personally. Yep. I just want to make sure everybody gets a
Chance to be heard.

1456
02:59:55,550 --> 02:59:55,550
okay. So we do it today. So can we get an idea of how many folks still have to go?

1457
03:00:01,030 --> 03:00:04,190
how many more questions do we have? Raise hands. One. Two more. Three more questions. Would people like to forego their questions and go to
Comments?

1458
03:00:15,230 --> 03:00:18,060
no. I want to go through all the finish the question. Yeah, let's finish it off. They got three. Yeah.

1459
03:00:21,580 --> 03:00:24,900
I we can't be here forever, is what? The point is. We can't be here forever. Here. Is that okay?

1460
03:00:32,060 --> 03:00:32,060
before before this gentleman comes up. How many people have comments to make?

1461
03:00:38,060 --> 03:00:38,060
well, frank. Five. Six. Seven. Okay, so if we limit everyone's comments to three minutes,
Does everybody promise to try to stick to that

1462
03:00:48,180 --> 03:00:48,180
30 minutes. Okay. Very good. I'm sorry. It seems logical to

1463
03:00:57,780 --> 03:00:57,780
me. I'm going to get three minutes to interview.

1464
03:01:04,060 --> 03:01:06,860
okay. We can stop. We can stop now. Okay. Yes. So we can stop. We we can I it. We have to be reasonable, right?

1465
03:01:10,860 --> 03:01:10,860
we can stop now. You ken. It's ridiculous. Why don't you stand up for us and fight and do
These

1466
03:01:20,780 --> 03:01:24,300
things? We don't have this at all. Why do you let it get this far? We don't even need to the day before. You should be fighting for us.

1467
03:01:27,860 --> 03:01:27,860
what did you say? Thank you. Sir. Sir. Sir. Sir.

1468
03:01:36,100 --> 03:01:39,220
sir! I can't hear you. Please, sir. We have a lot of people. I hear you, sir. Sit down please. Okay. Shame.

1469
03:01:46,100 --> 03:01:49,060
shame on it. I think I think we should stop this for tonight,
Then. I was willing, I was willing, I was, I was willing to offer my time.

1470
03:01:53,700 --> 03:01:53,700
yeah, I was okay. We will continue this till thursday night at 5:00.

1471
03:01:58,820 --> 03:02:02,020
we've noticed. Correct. Thank you sir. Yes. Thank you. So we will continue this to thursday at 5 p.m..

1472
03:02:07,460 --> 03:02:09,740
we are. What happens when we're not reasonable? Right. We're done. Well, I think I don't.