All right. Good evening. I assume everybody's here for the air conditioning only.
this is the montgomery township planning board. Montgomery township, somerset county and new jersey. It's our regular meeting june 23rd, 2025 at 5 p.m..
and it is our intention to conclude this meeting no later than 8 p.m..
right now, the time is 502. Under the provisions of the open public meetings act.
notice of the time and place of this meeting has been posted and sent to the officially Designated newspapers.
roll call please. There. Yes. Here. Here. Blodgett.
here. Hamilton. Here. Roberts. Here. Here. Taylor.
todd. Here. Here. You see here. Sullivan. Working on this for michael.
here. Thank you. Okay. Please join me in the salute to the flag.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america.
and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god, Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
okay. The first item is public participation for items not on the agenda tonight.
do we have anybody from the public here to ask a question? Make a comment for anything not on the agenda.
okay. Our next item is the master plan. Public hearing and adoption of resolution.
it's the presentation of the master plan 2025, Fourth round housing element and fair share plan dated june 13th,
2025. Just a couple of notes. Here's how I would like to.
can I help you? Yeah. I thought the comments were given by names.
oh, yes. Yeah. Sure. So we can talk about it. It was not part of the. I was about to go over everything.
oh, sorry. Okay, so here's what we're going to do. We're going to start with our presentation from our professional planner, Michael, as well as some potential comments from our,
our town folks. Then we're going to open it up to questions from the board.
okay. So questions directly to michael and or lori from the board.
then we're going to open it to public questions. So questions from the public. Not comments yet.
just questions. Okay. Think of it as michael makes a presentation.
you want to ask him a question. After that, we will then take public comments.
and depending on where we're at and how many folks we have signed up, We will limit that to a certain amount of time and we'll see where we are with sign up
sheet. And then after that we will have a board discussion and potentially a vote Depending on time.
now there is a sign there are two sign up sheets going around, One for questions and one for comments.
is that correct? Well, there's this one right here. Okay. So let's go ahead and pass that around.
okay. So with that we're going to start with with michael.
michael and laurie. Why don't I just swear you in for tonight? Do you both swear from your testimony this evening will be truthful?
yes. Thank you. Okay. Good evening. And thank you.
tonight we're here. The purpose of this hearing is to have the planning board consider the Adoption of the housing plan element.
fair share plan. Addressing montgomery's fourth round obligation to provide opportunities For affordable housing pursuant to the fair housing act of new jersey.
who am I? I'm michael sullivan. I'm with clarke hayden in trenton, New jersey. We're an architecture, planning and landscape architecture firm.
I'm a licensed professional planner in new jersey. I'm certified by the american institute of certified planners. And when I need to be, I'm a licensed landscape architect.
isabel rodriguez, my project manager on this, Is not here with us tonight.
but she was instrumental in drafting of the plan. We serve as the township affordable housing planning consultant, As well as their planning consultant for other matters.
so that's who we are. So the purpose of the hearing, As I said, is to consider the adoption of the 2025 fourth round housing plan element and
fair share plan. The planning board is responsible and vested, Has vested powers through the municipal land use law to adopt the master plan and
elements thereof. Tonight, I'm going to walk the planning board and the public through the Primary points of the plan.
I will answer any questions from the planning board and the public. And then, As the chair said,
public comment will be opened after the direct presentation and questions.
so in 2024, the reason we're here in 2024, the state of new jersey adopted an amended fair Housing act.
and that was pretty important. It abolished the council on affordable housing.
some folks call it coa. Established an affordable housing dispute resolution program, Which is charged with administering and reviewing plans and any disputes.
and it significantly changed how the affordable housing matters in new jersey are Administered.
the affordable housing dispute resolution program is an entity which is really a Clearinghouse for all of the housing plans.
and it's essentially court based. The fair housing act revision amendment was really Instituted,
adopted and enacted in order to remove the courts from the process.
in the third round, we all may remember we all had to file lawsuits in order to protect Ourselves and to get to a point of resolution for our third
round of affordable housing plans. Although that was the intent of the fair act, It didn't work that way,
and the court now manages the affordable housing compliance program.
any disputes or challenges will be mediated by the program, And judges specializing in mount laurel or affordable housing matters will issue
orders as necessary for the process. And michael, If I could just for for the board members and also members of the public what we're
talking about now dates back to 1975 the mount laurel lawsuit that took place in the state Of new jersey.
and then decades later, as we've been seeing rules change and modified within our plan That's available online,
it has a great, very detailed history of all of that. So it's sometimes good to know how did we get where we're at.
so I just wanted to lay that out. It started in 1975. So what does this mean for montgomery township and all the other 400 plus towns who are Participating?
you have to adopt a new fourth round housing plan element and fair share plan.
no later than june 30th. And after you adopt it, You have 48 hours with which to upload your plan to the program.
and it must provide for the fulfillment of your obligation to provide affordable housing Between july 1st,
2025 and june 30th, 2025, which is that's the period that the fourth round covers.
so next tuesday we will be in the fourth round, If anybody's counting.
so there's been some key milestones with respect to montgomery and that is that on january 16th,
16, 2025. I sat here and we held a public information meeting to review, Discuss and answer questions regarding the fourth round and your obligations.
on january 27th, 2025, the township adopted a binding resolution to accept the obligations That were created or calculated by the new jersey
department of community affairs and stipulated to that number and stipulation also that They would submit.
the township would submit a fourth round plan. On january 29th of this year, the township filed a declaratory judgment action with the Program,
which is required a lawsuit in order to establish immunity from builders, Remedy lawsuits during the period where you will be developing and
adopting your plan. On march 26th, the program issued an order saying setting forth your Fourth round obligations.
and so we know that what the obligations are and this plan is going to address it, As I already said,
june 30th, 2025, that's your deadline. And then after you submit there's a period whereby Any challenger could make a challenge to your plan
based on how you've done it or what you've done. And the deadline for that is august 31st and then march of next year.
is the deadline for the adoption of your implementing ordinances.
the housing plan is a master plan element, and the spending plan is adopted by the Governing body and is included in the housing plan element tonight.
but the ordinance is the zoning and other ordinances that are required.
you have some time to develop them. There was a recognition that that does take some time.
so those are our real key milestones and upcoming events.
michael, if I could just let the board members know because actions are also taken by the Township committee.
the township attorney has just dialed in to just hear the proceedings in case there's any Questions from that aspect.
but as you can imagine, with the time frames that michael talked about, She's in another town in a little bit to do this exact same thing.
so we had asked her if she could she could call in. Thank you. It's a very popular assignment lately.
so what's in a housing plan element? Very briefly. The first section contains a lot of required census information.
demographic information that's required by the law. The second section and the section we're going to really be focusing on tonight is how the What the affordable housing obligations are and how we satisfy them.
and what's new is that we have to do we have to document round by round.
so the prior round, the third round and now the fourth round are all documented in there.
the third section is administrative. How do you administer the affordable housing Programs?
in the final section is the spending plan, which talks about how you will utilize your Affordable housing trust funds that accumulate in the trust fund account.
so the big picture, what are your fourth run obligations? The dca issued these numbers back in october, And your present need or rehabilitation obligation is 73.
that's dealing with rehabilitation of existing units. The your prospective need which is envisioned.
you can think of that as new new units that are needed or new credits is 260.
tonight I'm really going to be focusing 99% on the perspective need because that's the Most intricate part.
so there are various compliance mechanisms that you can use in order to satisfy your Obligation.
you can zone you can extend affordability controls on existing units and other things.
so the compliance mechanisms that we have focused on in this plan are first and foremost, We looked at existing affordable units
that would have expiring controls. And these are units that were created 30 years ago.
they had 30 year deed restrictions. Those restrictions will be lapsing during the fourth Round.
so it's an opportunity to extend those. And there's a monetary cost to that.
but you can extend those. And it doesn't create a new unit but it creates a new affordable Credit.
going into the fourth round. So we're focused on that first, Second new inclusionary developments and inclusionary development is a
development that's composed of both market rate and affordable units.
and they're usually a ratio of, you know, 85% to 80%, Market to the rest being affordable.
and that's the theory behind that is that a developer can develop market rate housing and That the,
the profits from that subsidized the creation of the affordable units. It's a very common practice that's been utilized all over the state through all of the Previous rounds.
finally, the strategy here was to maximize the fourth round bonuses of the 260 credits That are required.
65 of them may be bonuses. We have maximized all of the bonus credits that you could use Within the fourth round.
ultimately, the plan that we have results in a surplus of 24 credits that may be carried Into future rounds or used to satisfy a shortfall of
anticipated mechanisms within this plan. The plan has been thought out pretty well in Terms of the capacity of the sites to accommodate the proposed development or the
anticipated development, but you never know. Something could come up on a site and it Shrinks it a little bit,
so you might lose some, or you may not be able to get as many extensions as you thought.
so having a little bit of surplus is not a bad idea. And then there are 22 unused extensions of expiring controls.
they cannot be used in this round, but they may be used in the fifth round.
I can't believe I'm saying fifth round, but that's that's what you could use was.
so let's talk about the extensions of expiring controls. We have 92 of these in the plan. Mckinley court the township is going to extend 60 of Those because they expire in the fourth round.
you cannot wait till the fifth round to do that. But only 38 of those will count now because you have a cap on senior units.
okay. Mckinley commons has 35 family for sale units.
they will be extended. Montgomery glen has 19 family for sale units and those will be Extended.
now there's a little bit difference. These cost money and and the fees or not the fees but The cost of these of obtaining these.
the minimum costs for these new deed restrictions is set by the fair housing act and Newark.
so mckinley court rentals will cost $1,050,000 and that would come from affordable housing Trust funds.
the mckinley commons and montgomery glen units, The for sale owner units and the extensions will cost $1,080,000,
and that total will be funded through the canvey redevelopment noncontiguous cluster, Whereby that will not come out of the township coffers.
I want to talk a little bit about the inclusionary development. So the first one I want to talk about is at 23 orchard, Its existing research office building,
associated parking. They've got a solar field. You can see the aerial up on the plan. The township has worked with the owner of that.
they would like to subsidize their rehabilitation of the existing office building to help Create an innovation hub.
the way they've talked about it. There's a lot of renovation and retrofitting that needs To go on to make it,
to bring it up to today's standards for those kind of uses. And they came to the township and are seeking a residential development.
there was a back and forth on this, and ultimately the township felt that 180 multifamily Units,
these are not senior multifamily units, could be accommodated on the site while continuing The use for the nonresidential portion of it,
and that would produce 36 affordable units. It's located near the intersection of orchard Road and 206,
right near the new jersey transit 605 bus line. So low, close to transit. And the 36 is included in the 180 total units.
and the market rate units would be a mix of one and two bedroom rental apartments.
yes. It's also right across the street from here, So it's near municipal services.
the second inclusionary development I want to talk about is that the can view facility.
there's been a proposal and for 417 total dwelling units.
70 of those units on site would be affordable, And they would be integrated within the market rate units,
which is requirement of uac. At this point, 54 extensions of the affordability controls.
that's mckinley and mckinley commons in montgomery glen would be funded through this, But they would be off site.
so the the way this would be, the ordinance would work. This would be a noncontiguous cluster development that would fall under that.
it's an alternative. This proposal, which is all residential, Is an alternative to another proposal made by this the kennedy folks which would have been
industrial for the most part, research and industrial. And so this is an alternative to that proposal which had a lot of associated truck traffic With it.
and in addition this proposal includes 125 acres that would be dedicated to the township For public use.
in addition to the open space that will be created within the residential area.
the third inclusionary project mechanism that's in the plan is thrive at montgomery Continuing care community.
there's a total independent age restricted units of 127 maximum, And then a minimum of 40 assisted living
memory care units. They kind of juggle back and forth and then affordable assisted living Units.
there will be ten units with 20 medicaid eligible beds.
the credits are by bedroom, so you get 20 credits out of those. And that's part of your senior cap. That's what we can't take.
all those seniors extensions okay. This zone exists right now.
this is part of the redevelopment. Which plan? Which was for country club meadows senior living redevelopment plan, Which was adopted in april of this year,
and it is also the result of a 200 2014 settlement of litigation with the owner of the Property.
and I think just to add to that, prior to the redevelopment plan for this, We did engage with montgomery ems,
which is an all volunteer organization, to talk about this. There is a concern about the increased calls from a facility like this.
and so we talked a little bit about stonebridge and what we could do here.
and so we increased the total number of independent living units, Decrease the assisted living component,
which is what has most of the calls. And so this this project will have 50% less assisted Living
beds than stonebridge. So that was something that was very important to the town and Working with ems on that.
okay. There's there's one unit that I didn't talk about and I didn't put a slide up for.
and that's a village walk. Village walk was just there was just a a new amendment to the Redevelopment plan that was adjacent
to village walk. Village walk, a portion of village walk was made part of that Redevelopment area,
the kepner trigo redevelopment area. As a result of the negotiations for that village Walk,
which has a residential component, already agreed to deed restrict one additional unit Above the 11 that they already had for affordable housing.
it's not creating a new unit, it's just characterizing that as affordable.
right. Taking one of their already approved market rate units and making it an affordable Unit.
right. So there's one I didn't do a slide for. So let's talk about the present need, which is the rehabilitation need.
montgomery township will establish a local rehabilitation program open for eligible owner And renter occupied units.
and that means that somebody who is eligible for low or moderate income housing, But may not have a deed restriction on their place,
but they need improvements or other things like that, That the township can fund a portion of those improvements with a minimum payment and
that as a as a part of that agreement, they would agree to deed restrict their unit.
okay. So that's how that works. That program would be administered by community grants Planning and housing inc,
ccp and commonly known. Who is your administrative agent?
and then that would be money that would be used for that would be paid through the Affordable housing trust fund.
that's your that's how you address the rehab. Need doesn't require the creation of any new units.
so next steps adoption by the planning board.
planning board needs to adopt this plan. No later than june 30th in order to maintain Immunity from builders remedy lawsuits.
I can talk about buildings remedy lawsuits later endorsement by the township committee.
the plan must be endorsed by the township committee, And the spending plan must be adopted by the township committee. That's important because
that this plan requires the spending of funds from the town.
so that's a requirement. Upload to the program. Once the plan is adopted, it's uploaded by your affordable housing attorney to the Program,
and then it's open for public viewing. Beyond just the public viewing that you've provided For.
and then within 30 days, you'll have to file the plan with the new jersey office of Planning advocacy and the somerset county planning board.
that's what you do with any master plan element. So that's where we go with that.
I have a few extra points, guiding principles really, That I think are helpful to understand where the plan came out of and what what drove us
access to public of transportation. It was a priority and a goal for us in round three, So you'll see a lot of that infill development that has taken place along
206 along the new jersey transit route 605 bus line, And we carried that guiding principle into this planned development.
so that 23 orchard road project, which is at a bus stop, It kind of checked that box of what we were trying to achieve
trying to limit development in greenfields. So what areas are already redeveloped that, That that may need to be redeveloped?
and trying to stay out of other areas that were green. Green. Michael already mentioned maximizing those bonus credits because the state sets a Limit on how many and bonus credits come in the form of
if you're redeveloping on a property that's already been developed it's a half a credit.
yeah. So so there's a they have a structure. It used to be in the third round that if you Did rental family housing,
you got a one for one bonus on that. That's gone. Now in redevelopment, if you repurpose a place that has already been developed for non Residential use,
then you get a half credit bonus for that. If you extend controls those extensions of Controls,
get a one for one bonus if it's a rental. So the the mckinley commons get a one for one Bonus on that.
and so utilizing extension of expiring controls, This was our first round that we were able to do that.
so we set that as michael had said as a high priority prior rounds. We we did not have that ability because they were not expiring.
that 30 year deed restriction was not expiring 100% affordable developments.
so in this plan, we do not have any 100% affordable developments, But we do still have them from our prior round.
and one is under construction on this property. So 100% affordable developments while we were not doing any in this round.
we do have them in town, and I'd like to share a little bit about them.
they mean that there are no new market rate units associated with those.
so the two developments that we have, we have a 100% 71 bedroom age restricted development Happening here with the in partnership with the developer
rpm. Those projects need a lot of assistance in financial assistance because there's no Market rate units that are subsidizing them.
so the land is given there's infrastructure improvements that, You know, assistance money from our housing trust.
and then the biggest one is the low income federal low income housing tax credit.
without that, they they would not be able to to do a project like that.
the other 100% affordable housing development, Which is is unique because it's a hybrid.
but we we we like to think creatively here in montgomery. Is the 87 units that are at hartwick and village drive apartments at what is it crossing Sheri montgomery crossing.
so a portion of that was part of an inclusionary development. So some of those units were required as part of montgomery crossing townhouse development.
but at the time, we asked the developer, because of its somewhat close proximity to public Public transportation and walkability to jobs and
shopping, could they do additional units? So I so I believe the number is something like 60 of the 86
units could technically be considered a 100% job.
so the developer gave the land. The developer had the requirement to assist with a portion That met with the townhouse requirement.
but the rest of those units there was assistance from the township. So I guess overall, to understand that while 100% percent.
projects are great that they don't bring market rate and those additional development.
there is a cost. There's a cost to to the township. So we have to be just mindful of that. See, one of the things we wanted to talk a little Bit about what this plan is and what
this plan isn't. To have some clarification. The plan has concept plans in it.
it's kind of setting forth the parameters of what we what we intend to do, But it does not give.
the zoning is not being implemented tonight that those those zoning regulations will be Drafted and public hearings in the future will be held.
we have, I think michael said about a year to do to do that.
and that will take place at the township committee level and then site plan approval.
that happens before your board, as you well know. And so those plans will be more carefully crafted.
certainly with any public comment here and any, Any members of the public that want to come into the planning department and offer some
comments on the draft site plans that would also be considered.
so I think we wanted to just let people know the action that happens with this plan.
and then it's there's subsequent actions that need to be taken.
and I think that was some of the talking points I just wanted to to share in terms of Guiding principles.
so that ends my presentation. Welcome. Any questions from the board of the public?
well, I do have one question. I just want do I have to say my name?
I'm al battle. The 54. I'm reading from my notes so the can view site.
you mentioned that there were going to be 417 units, 70 affordable.
54 of the units are there was some credit given based on montgomery mckinley mckinlay Court,
were you mentioning those there in terms of the credit given for them?
would they be recognized twice for credit? No no no. Go ahead. Let me let me explain that a little.
it's a pretty unique approach. Okay. Essentially ken view will be doing 15% set
aside, and we say set aside. That means 50% 70 units.
the additional 54 are the existing units that are already there which have expiring Controls in the fourth round.
we're including them within that because they will be paying for those extensions.
they will be paying the funds for that. They will not come out of the trust fund, The developers paying it.
so it really turns their set aside from 15, a little over 15% to 26%.
so it's it's a substantial it's a substantial set aside when you look at it in the terms Of the overall set aside for can view.
it's rare to get a 26% set aside. Just doesn't happen. 20%. That's that's usually as high as you can get for sure.
so I had a question. Actually, to continue on to to laurie's last point about kind of what We're doing here tonight.
just to clarify for myself and maybe other board members, Maybe the public, what we're doing here tonight and and it's it's.
so from laurie's last point, you said that this is a plan that is being put forth as a Requirement by the deadline of
june 30th, right? So I just put a mental note. Can you clarify what that requirement is? The specific requirement that is, Is put upon towns.
maybe you should do that now. Okay. And then I'll continue on. Yeah. So the requirement in The fair housing act set the deadline of june 30th for the fifth fourth round and every
subsequent round. They're envisioning this to to carry forth interminably.
so that that's part of the fair housing act. Right. That deadline of june 30th is a requirement for towns to file and be part of the program.
and it means that what that means is. But you but you said something about so the the Indemnity against the
builders. Yes, please. Can you specify that? Yeah. So, so when you filed your jw action and you stipulated to the number of affordable units That you would plan for,
you received and the court accepted it, you got an order giving you immunity through june 30th.
okay. If you do not adopt this plan by june 30th, Then you will be at risk for a builder's remedy lawsuit and a builder's remedy lawsuit.
in case we want to talk about that. Builder's remedy lawsuit is where you don't provide For the zoning or the plan to address your affordable housing obligation.
and a developer shows up and he's and they say, Hey, listen, you haven't done anything.
here's my plan for a thousand units, and I can solve your whole plan.
and you'll argue with them in court and you'll do other things, But ultimately they're going to get to build something and,
and, and you really lose control of your ability to zone and plan at that point.
so yeah, that's I think that's the really important point for me to understand is that This is a plan to provide the township
immunity against a lawsuit by a builder. Correct.
right. But but this specific plan to laura's last point does not approve any of these Sites.
it does not say that the township agrees, because the zoning in these sites will need to Change.
and that will have to happen at a subsequent later hearing, Is that correct?
yes. Yes, yes. So, so this does not give any approval at all for, For the, the sites in this place.
so to take eisenhower's adage plans are worthless, But planning is everything, right?
that's correct. Right. So so these plans are worthless in a sense, But they're everything because we have to have a plan by
june 30th. That's right. Is that right? You have to have it to protect yourselves from a Builder's remedy lawsuit.
right. The other thing is that to your point about the ordinances, In order to do this plan,
we had to have a a legitimate sense of what these sites could accommodate in terms of the Inclusionary development.
we had to have a legitimate sense that these controls were expiring and all the Mechanisms,
we couldn't just say, we're going to do it. It had to be legitimate. And that's why we Have site suitability analysis in here and the deed restrictions that are expiring.
to your point about the ordinances. Those ordinances will be developed post plan.
and as they're developed, they will be introduced by the governing body. They would come back here for consistency review.
and when the consistency review happens, you look at your newly adopted housing plan Element and you say,
oh yeah, they said, ken, you will get 4 in 17 units, 417 units. That looks right. And you can make any comments back that you want on that.
but that's the role that the planning board would play. Or we could say it doesn't make sense. Then totally.
we could. You could totally say that in bringing up builder's remedy.
it's, it's it's something to consider because under what I would consider like a do Nothing scenario.
so we don't we don't have a housing plan. We know that montgomery is a desirable place to Live.
we know that there's housing demand, and we know that we have top schools in the state.
so we know that there would be developers eager to file a builders remedy lawsuit.
suit. One, two. We could. We could have many with that tract.
you are solely subject to inclusionary development. So we're not doing extension of controls, which produces no new units.
we're not doing, you know, extension of senior units. And so you're really looking at that 260 number, Multiplying it by four market rate units,
five five market rate. And so you're talking about a totally different build out in the Township than what we're
proposing. So I didn't run the numbers for the five. I ran the numbers for the four. But we're talking about a thousand, Over a thousand market rate units versus the under the 500 that we
have in this plan right now. And and, and 260 affordable units versus we have less than That in this plan because of the bonus credits and the
extension of controls. So the overall impact of not doing anything in terms of public School children or strain on infrastructure
is is magnified multiple times. If we did nothing because we know that we will be sued Because we are a desirable place to
be. Yeah, there are some communities that don't worry about this. You're not one of them. Yeah, we have to worry about that.
other questions from the board for michael. Lori.
and just just one real quick question. The rehabilitation that you covered, Just very briefly.
yeah. Those are for non deed restricted units today.
correct. Correct. Okay. I mean, I hope that's I don't want to hijack the whole floor, But I do want to have some specific questions
about the can view property specifically I think in incorporation into this plan, Which we've already said the plan is not is not approval for that.
but I kind of would like but once you kind of suggest something, It kind of becomes more of a reality,
which is, is is is is a concern, right? I, I guess I wonder what why the kennedy property Was
considered at, at such a magnitude when, you know, For instance, these other particularly in terms of
the public transportation around the area, the character of the area is significantly Different than characters of other
of another area, for instance, the 23 orchard property. I mean, it seems to me that, you know, right now that zoning does not allow housing, You know,
at all. At all. I believe it's a it's commercial a highway commercial property.
right. Maybe I'm not specifically right about that. It is. Right. So it has no housing on it or not, But we're kind of taking it for granted in some,
in some ways that there's going to be 180 units on that. On which 36 are applied to affordable housing.
that seems a little bit excessive to me from the standpoint that that seems like a much More logical place
to fulfill our obligation, our state mandated obligation for affordable housing.
so that can be you can view approach to the township.
last year maybe sometime and said we're we're moving out of montgomery.
we're relocating all of our offices to a smaller footprint in summit.
and so the last of our employees, which there aren't that many now after covid, Really none came back.
and the last will be out in 2026 and we're going to be marketing it. When we met with them, we said we would like a user in-kind.
that's you know, and they marketed it as such. They hired cbre, which is a national, one of the national top firms for, For commercial real estate and they,
they the, the interested buyer, they didn't they didn't have any buyers at that sort of In-kind swap of like a pharmaceutical company
or whatever. And so the company came in and said, We have a couple of options.
we have the bi-rite plan, which is essentially what does the current zoning permit me to Do?
we don't have the option to rezone it, farming or open space.
that would be a taking of the land. So you're sort of by, Right. What could they do? And that is that light industrial flex space that michael talked about Earlier with the truck traffic.
so we ran some numbers on truck traffic for that. And and so we know that the trucks that exist on our roads right now, We already have complaints.
so adding I think was it 400 and something trucks at a minimum to that area, 400 something trucks per day,
420 per day, 420 per day. So that was so we we we said what other plans do you have?
and so there was a residential plan and that was for a little over 600 units.
so we said, well, we'll get back to you. So then we're working on this plan to back in.
what would we need there? And so we don't need 600 units there to get where we need to be.
and so that's where we sort of arrived and how it sort of happened. And I was talking to someone today about the property and we were you know, I remembered I've been in montgomery a while now,
and I remember when j and j was operating where there were a lot of people coming in and Out of the site,
and that we would get a lot of complaints about the the traffic of those.
a lot of them worked in pennsylvania. So they went, You know, west of the mountain.
so, you know, whether it's a large scale office, Light industrial with trucks, you know, it's it's a site.
but the law allows the property owner to have the development potential.
and so to your point of how did we arrive? Something is happening with this, The property,
they have the right to do something. And so is it going to be something that would bring In truck traffic,
or would it be something that would help us meet our state requirement at a level that is Not in exceedance of what we what
we would need? I'm going to go ahead. I was going to say, And you mentioned it before, but I think it it it's worth mentioning
again what they are going to do potentially if they build this for the credits for our Existing units,
because that that's that's a big addition of credits that we're going to get for the deed Restrictions that are coming up.
correct. Right. They'll be making a payment towards those extension of controls elsewhere In town.
they'll be dedicating 125 acres to the township.
yeah. There are other benefits. Yeah. Can you speak a little more on the extension of Controls?
I find that there is a little bit of confusion with people. Can you reiterate it a little bit that these are, You know, not being new built and that the owners of,
well, who can be would be paying for the township doesn't have to pay for it.
so if you can, you know, elaborate a little more on on that.
on what what is the question. The, the fact that these would can you would be paying for Or can we or the owners would be paying for the extension of the
mckinley, because that somehow is not getting through. Or that's the questions I've heard from everyone is to, You know, the money.
the state does require that there's a payment made to extend the controls.
and so we have an affordable housing trust fund. It's generated by development that is not providing affordable housing, Which because a lot of the development that you see happening in montgomery right now
is part of our round three. It's not generating as much money.
so the affordable housing trust can cover some of the extension of controls, But not all of the extension.
and so that's the negotiation that happened between the township and and the contract Purchaser for the can view property so that they would their whole
obligation would not be developed on site. And part of their obligation will be done Through extension of controls.
so further kind of reducing that overall number that they they would have done right.
I had one question to the can you cite once it's redeveloped for that residential permit, It would be residential only.
it wouldn't be office space or a portion of it be one or the other.
right. It's 100% residential, 100% residential, But varying types.
I mean, they've got when they've described the proposal, There's a variety of types of, of dwelling prototypes say that.
okay. I have a question. It may be a question for the attorneys, But can you elaborate?
if you know, if the attorneys know about the towns that have been subject to builder's Remedies or any other court enforced remedies?
well, I can say that my experience as planning a planning firm and we've this is we've Done.
this is one of 30 plans we've done this year. So and we've been the planners for myriad towns, Both as the planner, the affordable housing planner,
but also as special court masters advising the courts on these things.
we can talk about towns that have lost not just their immunity.
they've lost the jurisdiction over their planning board.
there are towns where the court has said any of these, Any of these proposals come in.
they have to build a residential site improvement standards. You can't add any cost Generative elements to these,
like nice plants or things like this. And by the way, You don't even get to review it.
there's somebody special who's going to review it, And that's all they're going to be looking at. So all the negotiation that's done at the
planning board to massage these to make them fit better in the community, That gets taken away from you.
and and that's the last part of it. The first part of it is they come in and they're going To do a lot more units than you plan for,
and you're going to have to do it. There's nothing that's going to stop the court from Allowing a developer to come in and at some
level do it now. They'll come in big, they'll come in bigger than they need to because They know they might get it reduced,
but ultimately it doesn't end well. And you lose. You lose control of your zoning. You lose control over your review powers.
I mean, these are the worst case. The worst case. There's some really there's been some bad towns out there that have really not complied, And it's been very costly.
I mean, the, the the lawyers and the planners and the engineers and everybody they have Just to to fight with these guys and negotiate.
it is insane how much it costs. So it almost significant implications, Negative implications to not filing a plan.
the way you're explaining it, it almost seems like there might be developers waiting for Towns to not comply so that they can swoop in and try to enforce a the remedy.
do any of the the names of the towns? Just let me just say that they are like the minute That this came out.
I mean, in all of our towns, we've gotten. Oh, By the way, I hear you're doing an affordable housing.
we want to be part of it. Here's our plan. Is it? And it's like blood in the water. And do any of the names of those towns come to mind if You can share?
I don't think it's any secret that south brunswick had their immunity pulled and lost Control of their planning board.
sorry. South brunswick, south brunswick. Englewood cliffs, Let's go ahead.
and michael, you said this is worst case scenario. Best case scenario is we could get double or more number of units anyway.
potentially correct. Okay. Can you can you talk about I don't know if you covered the Timeline of the fourth round and how
long this fourth round window occurs. I mean, This has been over the course of 25, 30 years,
the three rounds, right? Oh, no. No, it goes for 50 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the 75 was mount laurel one.
so. Right in 1975, mount laurel one, the court said mount laurel, You're being discriminatory.
you need to have housing in 19. And then nobody did anything.
the towns just said, okay, whatever. In 1983 was mount laurel two.
that's when it got teeth. And then the first round was after 1985.
I guess my specific question is what this is the plan that's due by by a plan that's due By june 30th.
but what is the time horizon which the plan has to be implemented. So so so here's here's what happens june 30th.
let's assume that the plan is filed july 1st. The fourth round starts goes to 2035 june 30th 2035 2035.
you will be developing the ordinances by next march so that there's built development Rights for your inclusionary development.
you'll be doing your rehabilitation program, Getting that geared up.
you will be planning for the extension of controls.
you'll be doing all these things, and you'll be collecting funds through your trust fund That will start.
but you will have to monitor this. And if for some reason, These sites that we have in the plan haven't progressed in five years,
you're going to have to replace them. So you provide the you provide the platform, You provide the ability and the development rights,
the entitlements, so that folks can developers can build these things.
but if they're not progressing for some reason, You'll have to reexamine those and determine whether or not the site was suitable for that
or whether it can accommodate it. And things happen. Right? So there's a monitoring that goes on throughout the, The, the rounds.
and you've been doing that for the third round. The monitoring has been going on. We Monitor units.
what's been built? Did it get a ceo? When was the ceo? You want to know when the ceo was. Because that's when the development controls go on. The Affordability controls.
so they'll be monitoring throughout this. And if at some point one of these sites is not Reasonable or one of these mechanisms doesn't work,
you'll have to replace it. Will they have to be started within that ten year period or.
yes. They know this is this, this they want to see.
they anticipate that everything is built within the third round. Built within the fourth round. So built within, Completed within the fourth round.
that's ten years. Completed by 2035. Yes. Right.
so when is the next? The next threshold? I think you mentioned about nine months.
you said you had to have. Yeah. What was the nine months? Nine months. So a march 15th of next year. All of the ordinances that are necessary to Implement the plan must be adopted.
so it gives you time to work through the details of those. And if those are not adopted, then do we lose the indemnification for the builder's Remedy?
you would be at risk of losing immunity to builders remedy lawsuits. Yes. So in terms of the the number you didn't speak about all about the
township's assessment of. Is that a fair number or not? I assume I assume you went through that process and you think that this is a fair number.
you have no questions about their calculations? Yes. So michael can talk a little bit about that.
but before before he did the analysis on that.
I did get an update from the township attorney. So of the 431 towns that are participating in the state's process, 159 calculated their own number,
meaning, they said to the state, we think our number is lower than your number.
and so those 159 challenge towns aren't challenging that there is a requirement.
they are challenging just that the number that the state set forth was was too high.
so they are all still doing that. As mike will talk a little bit about the number that we Did on our own to assess whether to challenge the number.
our review didn't provide kind of a meaningful difference between the state number and any Number that we could potentially challenge.
and every town that did, did challenge the state got challenged by then, The new jersey builders association and usually the fair housing center share
center. So that's where there's a kind of a meeting of the minds between the state and Those two parties that challenged the town.
and from what I've been told by our township attorney, From what she has seen, less than ten towns had their number approved and that most were
only 4% less than the state number. So in terms of that that dialog.
we did do that exercise to see what could we challenge.
and so I guess the outcome really, of all of that time that the towns that did is that it Really didn't change much.
and that's and that's my experience too, because we have had towns who did challenge the Number,
and we went through the process where you had to appear before a judge and explain, And they had a report,
you did a report and fair share housing center was there.
and they and they well, they do what they do. They don't want any lower numbers. The builders are there.
they don't want any lower numbers. And even to the extent that I think personally, That they didn't comply with the law in there,
saying that our numbers wouldn't comply on the lower towns, They didn't provide any evidence of it,
and the court accepted their non evidence to the challenge.
so these little incremental changes were maybe negotiated, But it was not meaningful.
the only town. The only town. I had one town. So clark came and hence built a statewide model.
we built the same model that the dca built, but we used slightly different factors that The law permits.
and in one town we we did get a roughly 10%, 9% reduction.
but we only got it because the court master or the special adjudicator reviewed our model When we had a little white paper with it.
we reviewed our model and said, you comply with the state law. You're the only firm in the State that did a statewide model.
and they gave them that, but they wouldn't then further adjust it downward based on lack Of developable land.
the lack of developable land was the only factor you could use. And when you look around montgomery and you say, Well, look at all this land, blah, blah, blah, it only considered land in pa three and
less. It didn't consider any pa for land. So if you see things out there that wasn't in It.
so I think that was the best deal we got. And it was only because they relied on our Model,
and our model demonstrated that there was a significant difference.
so your model for round four for us? Yes. The model for you didn't show a dramatic Difference at all.
it was a very minor difference. And my experience from negotiating with this is that if we Had walked in in montgomery with our model,
they might have given us that little bit, but they wouldn't have given us any more. Right. You know,
they wouldn't give you the cherry on top. I noticed that you referred to 100% low cost Housing
in the third round. Did you consider doing that in the fourth round?
and if we were to develop a 100% affordable housing development in the fourth round.
what would be the impact on some place like? Can view of our having dealt with that Problem?
I would I would add, in addition to what I had talked about earlier in terms of the Financial commitment the township would need to make.
that was another conversation that we had had with ems, And the response that they also have had to some of the to the one building that we have
so far. And so that was definitely a consideration that we have two projects now.
and that, you know, maybe we take a break from, From the 100% buildings just to explore other opportunities,
because we had this opportunity for extension of controls, Which we have never had before.
so we really wanted to put efforts, all our efforts towards that as being our number one.
how do we extend those controls, especially on the seniors units, Because we want to make sure that we keep as much affordability in montgomery for seniors
as possible. And so that's I guess that's an answer.
so a 100% affordable project is pretty cost prohibitive for the township.
yes. We would not have any money for it in this round, Given that we're putting the money that we do have towards the extension of controls.
right. Okay. I just have. Oh. Go ahead. I just have another question that was asked by a Resident.
I want to bring up the bi-rite. So if can you if we are not doing housing, Which obviously still far out there and can view the new owners want
to do the light manufacturing. That's the question the resident wanted to.
you had mentioned that it is about 420 trucks a day for all the bays that they would have,
and we can't say anything because that's why. Right. They have that. Is that something that you can explain?
right? They were proposing one point 6,000,000ft² of flex industrial space.
and when we kind of took a look at what that would be with traffic implications.
24 hour trip generation, it would be 402 trucks in and out, 400 to a day.
okay. Any other questions from the board?
okay. Do we have a list of folks that have questions from the public?
penny. Paraiso. Sign myself up first. Hold on, Hold on one second.
miss paraiso, we need to swear you in. Do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening?
we'll be truthful. Yes. And, lori, we have the addresses for all these speakers.
correct. Lori. Lori, do we have everybody's address on there?
no, we do not. All right, miss paris. So do you feel comfortable giving us your address or You okay?
I live at 404 stillman road. Okay. I, I grew up here.
I've lived here all my life. Moved away for a bit. Came back. I remember ken before it was even jay and jay.
anyway question. I have a couple of questions.
the affordable housing piece, and I'm not sure if my math is right.
penny, we're just going. Ma'am, can you pull the microphone towards you? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Penny. You have to literally talk into it.
is that better? There you go. I just want to check and make sure my math is okay.
you said you have to provide 260 units, 260 credits, 260 credits.
so the extendable units that you mentioned are a 1 to 1 credit.
not all of them. The rentals that's a 1 to 1 credit.
okay. That's where my math is off. Because I'm doing math on the fly and I'm like, You're only missing,
like, 16 units, but they're not all one to ones.
I also noticed you didn't mention pike run. Are there any units in pike run that have Extensions available on them?
yes. So pike run has 210 affordable units, right?
they will be expiring over that period of time. We've reached like within these ten years of the fourth round.
okay. But they're not included in this presentation. We reached out to the property owner, and they were not able to agree to extend the Controls.
awesome. Fantastic. And then my other question is, Obviously, we cannot address the
location of some of the ideas here. But my understanding is that generally when builders Come in,
they go at like a 20% rate, 80 to 20, because the can view presentation is at 16% of Affordable to market rate units.
so so first first question. 15% for rentals, 20% for ownership.
and if you zone and you don't have a negotiated plan, Then the way it would be zoned is it would require 15%.
if they are rentals, 20% of their owner occupied for sale units.
okay. In the case of ken view, they're doing around 616% on site.
but because you add in the 54, they're now up at 26%.
okay. Roughly. Hence I say check my math. Other question is and somebody up here is asking About can you came into the process.
just curious if anybody ever reached out to, Say, research park as a potential area of putting in additional apartments.
there's not a lot of building use over there. And it is close to public transport, as you mentioned.
yes. And if that's been explored, by the way, We we did meet with the owner of wall street,
a research park. It's in the airport hazard area.
so it does restrict the amount. There are small areas on the fringes of that development That are outside.
and they they are interested in improving the property as a as a non residential property.
but they were not interested in having housing there. And we we talked to them in round three, round four and that, That we can't force them to do it.
and just, just to be clear about an air hazard. It's not an air hazard but air safety zone. The minimum lot size for for a home in that Area is three acres by statute.
yeah. Over by me. It's five and ten acres. Zoning.
but. But for the purposes of affordable housing, We're not building. Right? So. Yeah, exactly.
we're building multifamily housing, so you're restricted. You can't do it by statute. Okay.
so most of my other questions were answered already.
but I did have one question. And it does pertain to the ken view properties.
and you're talking about obviously, jay and jay can do whatever they want with their Property and sell it to whomever warehouse housing,
whichever. Where does csx come into this conversation for that flat road level road Crossing?
does that become part of any of the equation at this level of conversation, Or does that then kind of come down to the.
detailed conversation of property use. So 601 is the county road.
so the county is part of that conversation as well. And I know that on their plans, they the county has plans for a left turn lane onto Grandview and then there will be other intersection improvements
needed no matter what happens on that property. On the property. So and then just going back to when you were doing the whole can be Affordable housing,
new units versus potential manufacturing when you're talking about the truck traffic, Are we talking about warehouses?
it's flex industrial space. So it is multiple users with different truck bays.
so not necessarily an amazon warehouse, but not excluding it.
but our zoning does not permit a one user warehouse like an amazon.
that's not permitted. But it does permit multi use. Right. But but those late industrial users, they manufacture things.
they're little manufacturing. And so they have to manufacture. So they have to bring in Materials and then they're shipping out goods.
so I have light manufacturing literally across the street from me. So and they're very quiet. And, and I don't want to limit the number of questions.
but I will ask that we want to make sure we give people a chance. And also if you are just going to ask the same question, Please just be understanding of time.
absolutely. For the folks to come up. The rest of them, You'll see me at zoning meetings and planning board meetings if I see me a lot.
thank you so much. Sorry, I don't know my harold wasserman.
name is harold wasserman. I've lived in this town probably 40 years.
sir, we need. Sir, we need to this, sir. Hold on one, Sir, we need to swear you in.
so, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful.
yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay. So questions. So my question is, Are are you all comfortable with this,
with this fourth round and the way they kind of force you into things.
are you are you comfortable. Do you think this is right?
tell the truth. Well, I think you you will be you'll be here for the board discussion After everybody's questions and
comments. So here's my next question. There is a group of 27 municipalities that's suing The state of new jersey to address the unfairness of the fourth round
affordable housing law. This is a group if you are uncomfortable with this.
why? You know, it seems to me that this guy is railroading you, You know, into this thing right at the.
okay. Is there. Is there a question, sir? So do you plan to join this group?
that's not for tonight's discussion. So. We we are here to talk about the
plan. Okay. Thank you. Lori. Who's next? Next.
sorry, I at the risk. I'm over speaking. But to honor the man's question, Which I think is a good one.
do we have the authority to make a statement like that?
because I don't think that's in the planning board's purview. Just to be clear. That is a township question.
and I mean, I and that's and and I would agree and I just want to remind everybody, We are not elected officials up here.
right. So but we're not trying to absolve anything, But it's right.
I mean, the the just to be clear, nancy.
I'm a township resident for 25 years. Ma'am. Before you continue. We have your last name. Toledo. Could you spell that?
c a s t e l I n o. Thank you. And do you feel comfortable giving us your address?
yes. 37 fairview road. All right, ma'am, and then we need to swear you in.
do you swear any testimony you give this evening? We'll be truthful. Yes. Thank you. Please proceed with your question.
okay. I've been here for 25 years. And this thing I came to know about the meeting just Yesterday through one of my neighbors.
so it just spurred up. Wanted to know if proper notices were given to the township and Where the neighbors within the 200ft knew that.
and there is a sign that says this contamination on the property can view as that.
and another one about the open space. You know, Is is part of the open space.
I'm a part of another group which is mostly indians, And I've been known there, you know,
for 25 years. And missing is a part of that group.
and I put the question in the same group asking, Does anybody know or anybody knows where the township,
you know, has posted this may or may have put up in the.
we need to shut this group down. And I lost a lot of my friends who went out from that Group.
as you'll see in the last 25 years, we as an indian community has grown quite a bit.
the message that has been sent. That if you come, I have to stop you.
because if you have a comment, we will welcome that, I promise. I just want to get to everybody's question. So is there a specific point? So my question Is using the political office to intimidate people is I don't think is
right. Is that a question? That's a comment. And the question is, Ma'am, I'm sorry, I have to I have to limit you to questions.
I'm really sorry. Is is a proper notice given. That's what I want to know if proper notice. Sherry I believe notice was given.
yes, proper notice was given. For a master plan, Hearing notice is required to be published
in the courier news ten days before it was posted on the township website.
it was transmitted to all the neighboring township or township clerks, And it was sent to the somerset county and to the planning advocacy.
the 200 foot. Notice that you're talking about doesn't come into play until the Application gets submitted to the planning board.
right. Okay. But I did not see it. I thought it was to be in the local because required to Put in the local paper newspaper,
which is mammoth. Yep. So the courier news is our official paper because it must be a Weekly published paper in somerset county.
so when was it put in for? I'm sorry. When was it for the for the municipal land use?
yeah. When was it put in? I'm sorry. When was. When was the information put in on the for for on the 12th.
thursday the 12th. June 12th. Ten days before this hearing.
okay. Because I saw something on the 17th that was sent to me, So I wasn't sure. Okay. No, it was in the courier on the 12th. Yep.
okay. I have the affidavit upstairs, so if you want to stop by tomorrow.
yeah. Yep. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Doug hill. Okay.
okay. What was the name? Doug hill. Doug hill.
here it comes. And again, I just want to remind everybody, When you come up, we're going to ask you for your name,
your address, if you're comfortable giving it. And we are. And we are going to support you, sir. Sir, please.
we need your name and where you live. And then we have to swear you in.
what was that? We need. And we need your address. If you're comfortable giving it. And? And miss casey has to swear you in.
mr. Hill, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will be truthful.
yeah, I have one comment. What is your contingency plan?
desert contingency plan that you have besides using the can view property?
you don't have one. We do have, as michael described, Some excess credits.
and if we, if the can view property didn't work out for some reason, We would look at other properties.
there's other properties in this town. Yeah, The state on the corner of orchard and burn hills.
why wasn't that considered? Just so you know, Something will happen at the can view property.
they have the right to redevelop that property under the current zoning.
right. So whether it's what's in this plan or something else, Something will happen there.
yeah. We can't prevent a builder from building on property that they own.
so thank you. Thank you sir. Shelly. Jacobs. Shelly.
jacob. My name is shelly jacobson. I live at 309 grandview road.
and do you swear gilman already? And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening Will be truthful.
absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. And your questions. Okay, so I signed up for both questions and comments.
do you want me to stop with questions, or do you want me to continue? Just just questions. Okay. The question I have, which was not stated is what do you plan to demolish on the ken View property?
so their concept plan has them demolishing everything on the on the property?
pretty much. Okay. I really feel terrible for you. I'm really depressed about all this. You did an excellent job.
I've learned an awful lot about the process, But I'm not sure that you should be aware of this.
I'm not sure that you are aware of the j and j building it was built in, Finished the construction I think
in 1979, maybe occupied in 80. So it's been a good neighbor the whole time I've been here.
so my question is, do you know who the architect was who designed the building?
one person on the board. Yes, I am pei. I am pei.
I am paid. Do you. Have you ever heard of I.m. Pei? I think he did a little thing called the louvre, I believe I.
he is a world class architect. He was responsible for the addition for the louvre.
he built the baltimore willard world trade center and the rock and roll hall of fame for Just a few of his projects.
can I go on? Is this part of my question? Okay. I would prefer that that you would come back for a comment, Which you will absolutely have.
have the opportunity to do. I just wanted to lay that out there, Because there has been no comments made about what happens to the to
the existing buildings. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Frank. Drift.
frank. Drift. Sir. Can we get your drift? 361 sunset road, Skillman.
alrighty. And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful.
yes. Thank you. I live on sunset road. I've lived here for 82.5 years.
so nobody can tell me anything about montgomery. Right. I was with I went to work for johnson and johnson in 1970.
you know, when we had to get zoning to get them in there. But they came and they did a great job. I'm going to ask you, Why can't they sell it to someone else?
you know, I mean, here we're going to tear this building down. When johnson and johnson just made a statement that they were going to bring, What, $55 billion of work back to new jersey or united states.
why would we tear the building down? Not only that. Building this one over here. I mean, come on, People.
you know, we have ems volunteer. There's there's stress that they're there.
max. The fire company. Nobody thinking about them, But they can't handle it either.
volunteer. We have everybody volunteer. If nina wants to put this over here by the state Property,
that's where it should go. Or by the school. Because you know that the kids could walk to School instead of bussing them.
and that school is going to cost us a fortune. You know, nobody's thinking of these things. You know I love candy.
I started working for them in 1970, and I've been working for them ever since.
johnson and johnson ever since. And I think they've been a hell of a good neighbor.
I would hate to see that knocked down to build houses. You know, years ago that side of mr.. I, I have to limit you to a question.
you certainly can come back for a comment. I want to get to everyone's question questions.
when we had the zoning for that over there, you know, That was considered the least area to live.
so that's why they put that there. Where would you like them to move to or what would you Like to have there?
like that gentleman said before they sold the property, I mean, that johnson and johnson sold the property.
I mean, certified johnson and johnson doesn't own the property you can view.
so they're two different companies, right? How many trucks are they used? Did you say that comes in and out of there today or will the estimate was 402.
never happened? No, I've been there since day one.
I've never seen 24 hour operation. It was never done. This is a different use than what is there now.
same space. You know, I'm telling you, we're making a big mistake.
there are good people. I don't I don't, you know, But it should be zoned for light manufacturing and warehouse just like it is.
thank you. If I could just clarify that the land near the
schools is owned by the state is deed is restricted land. So we wouldn't be able to do an affordable housing development there.
right. Next story. Oh, sorry. Patrick whalen.
no question. Barbara fanning. Cooper. Fanning.
so I remember barbara manning, 284 grandview road.
ma'am, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful? I do. Thank you. So my biggest concerns, and I'm curious of what kind of transportation Will you offer people who need it when they go to.
can you cite. The. The township does not have to offer any transportation.
okay. So they're going to be the people who don't have any transportation will have no Options.
is that correct? I didn't say that. They have cars.
okay. What happens if for right now, the closest highway besides 601, Which has nothing on it,
is five, 18, 518. And or at the other end 206.
you're talking at least, and somebody can help me on this one at least a mile and a half To two miles.
so the question is, how are they going to be able to get back and forth? Right. So what they need, what I would say would be we have really focused on trying to do Infill and redevelopment along that bus line for that
very reason. There is practically no land left that we can redevelop along the bus line.
there are other affordable housing developments like pike run, Which are not in areas that have access to public transportation.
so while we wish we I think we had a more expansive public transit system.
we're not unlike many other suburban communities where we there are gaps in our public Transit,
but we 100% have tried to maximize the number of units that are walkable to retail, Shopping and the public transit line.
okay. Now you're saying if we go into residential, We're going to have how much traffic?
and if we go into commercial, we'll have four, Give or take 100 trucks.
what? How much are you expecting if we do residential per per person?
because you're looking at 417 times 400 or 4 per family.
we'll get that number. We'll look that up for you. If you wanted to ask, would you like to continue to pull that off?
I'm sorry. You want me to continue or do you want me to wait? I think that would be good. Yeah. Are you going to have to put traffic lights up at the corner of 518 or 2 06601 and
grandview. Yes. So with that and we were talking about the the truck, The train traffic.
what's going to happen with that? How is that going to affect us? Because right now when there's the train traffic that backs up and vice versa, The other direction.
yeah. Okay. Are they? Exactly. And is it zoned for trucks?
yes. It's own light manufacturing. Yes. On grandview, Are we?
no, no, I'm talking the roads. I'm talking the roads. Are the roads zoned for trucks? I Know, of course. Grandview and those who live behind me.
we have a bridge at the other end of grandview that has been taken out multiple times by Trucks because they went down and they can't get through.
and I'm talking taken out. I would definitely encourage you to reach out to the state About the trucks,
because we have tried to do weight limits on roads and the state enacted karen, Maybe you could help a law that prohibits towns from
doing that. And the state regulates the weight limits because of the, The, the commerce that they want to,
to have happen in the state. So while we would love to do some of those things.
sometimes we are superseded by the state. That's correct.
think about that. Our roads cannot support. And I'm going to. I was on montgomery ems. I have retired since.
having new ambulances. We have to be careful how we drive down some of those roads, Because we have taken out sides of ambulances,
because our telephone poles are leaning, because our roads are very narrow.
so my question is, what are we going to do if somebody goes down our road, They're going to back up a mile to get to a turnaround,
which has happened multiple times. Things to think about.
we already talked about options for ken view. So I'm just curious of what besides Multi-use is that the only thing they're allowed to use,
or can we do research. Can they look at getting research facilities in there?
they're permitted to do so. What about purchasing for open space?
is that an option? I don't understand the question.
can they purchase can view as an open space if that if that is that anybody.
I mean township whoever. I'm just curious. I, I don't think that the property owner would would sell the option would be we would have
to condemn the property. And I guess the other question was, What kind of tax revenue would we get from a company versus
people who are rent or living there or renting them?
so some of the projections that we've done, the residential is a more productive ratable Than the non residential.
so say that again, the residential is more more productive. Yes. Would produce a higher revenue property tax revenue.
okay. Thank you. Thank you stephanie. Hi, dear.
stephanie. Highview. Okay. Okay. Okay. Jorge desantis.
okay. Jorge. Sanctus. I don't see a need to give my address.
that's fine. Do you live in montgomery, sir? Yes. I've been here for 25 years. Okay. And do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening Will be truthful.
absolutely. Thank you. So I have several questions.
has montgomery ever challenged the state quotas?
and if. If not, why? In recent years, have you ever questioned the quotas?
I believe the answer is no. I am not sure anyone up there could speak to that, Because all of those were done prior to them sitting on the board.
oh, I'm sure, I'm sure this must be common knowledge for something, The gravity of the situation and the amount of housing that's being put into montgomery.
I would think that people would know that answer. My understanding is the answer is no. Given what I've been told.
so the question is, why haven't you question the quotas even for the last round?
does anybody have an answer? Let me let me say this. I'm addressing. I'm addressing the planning board.
well, I'm sorry, what was the question? The question is, Why hasn't montgomery, the planning board questioned the state quotas?
I'm not sure anybody on the planning board was here at the beginning of round three.
was anyone here? Well, for the for the last round. For the last round? Certainly. You've been around for the last year. Mr.
desantis, I believe that the board's planner testified that he had prepared a model, I guess,
statewide model that. Municipalities could rely on in terms of calculating what their unit Allocation should be.
shouldn't montgomery township be the one researching and questioning that model and the Quota,
rather than someone who, in my mind, probably represents a conflict of interest?
I'm sorry. Did I make myself. I didn't hear your last comment, So thank you.
I would think that montgomery township would be the one to research and question these Models.
this gentleman, in my mind, probably represents a conflict of interest in setting these Models.
but that happened in january. Excuse me, but that happened in january. Yes. Okay. I'm going to I'm going to insist that I be able to respond to this?
yeah. Please go ahead. Okay. Please do. My firm is hired by the township.
we're the township affordable housing consultant and and planning consultant.
we work for the township. We develop the model on behalf of, Not the state.
we've developed that model on behalf of all of our municipal housing clients. Only those towns had access to our calculations and the results of the model and the Methodologies in that model.
we shared those results with montgomery township. They revealed a minimis difference between our model and what the state dca had done Pursuant to the law.
there was a decision made. I don't know exactly when it was made that it was not worth Risking the litigation or the challenge involved,
and at that time, we had no idea how that would play out with the program.
we didn't know. We didn't know if we would lose immunity, If we would be in a protracted battle and the decision was made not to challenge the
fourth round number. I'll say this in the third round, All the numbers were negotiated through litigation.
every town that participated there was a number. It came out, it was back and forth. And ultimately you had to have a settlement agreement And a judgment that said,
here's your number and here are your mechanisms for it. And that was fair share. In prior rounds, which preceded the third round, There was no ability to challenge the number.
you were handed a number. It was developed in a black box by the state.
and they handed you the number and you solved as much as you could. So I just want to make the record clear about that and I hope that's helpful.
is this planning done in consultation with developers?
the in terms of the involvement, the planning is done to try to solve for the obligation.
there are developers who have approached the town, And when those developers approach to town, the town considers whether or not there's a
reasonable. It's a reasonable proposal and how it can address the affordable housing.
and those developers who have approached the town that the town felt were on suitable Sites that had a good model for how they
would address the housing, were put into the plan. There's three of them. Okay. You mentioned 400 to 420 trucks.
I'd be curious. What are the assumptions that you made in coming up with this number?
and can this report be made available to the general public so that we can actually look At how these calculations were made?
the. So the concept plan was sent to our traffic engineer, Who then ran the numbers based on the
concept plan. So there's not a formal report, But we could probably prepare some type of information to answer your
question. Thank you. One of the committee members mentioned earlier.
why are we here? It sounds to me like this is a fait accompli.
this is more of an informative evening. All of the questions and comments made by all of These folks.
do they really amount to anything? Because it sounds like nothing's going to change.
if we challenge this, then we are legally liable.
to the developers, we. Montgomery township stands to lose their immunity, And we could be litigated.
so it almost sounds like a form of extortion to me.
is there? No, there wasn't a question in there, But I'll answer a question.
I came to this meeting tonight to learn everything I possibly could, Because I don't look to make any decisions until I get all of the
information from our professionals, as well as get questions and comments from the public.
so I don't know what a fait accompli is in relation to us, But I, I think you heard from the questions from the board.
we asked some pretty specific questions to get answers, But it sounds to me like everything is pretty much set in stone.
we have a june 30th deadline I can't imagine before june 30th and anything is going to Change.
is that correct? What I would say is we had the information session earlier in the winter.
we kind of laid out what our number was and a little bit about the approach.
and so the number is the number and how we approached it. I think we tried to share some of those guiding principles, Some of the challenges we were faced,
some of the decisions that needed to be made by the township, And trying to convey those to you tonight as to why you see the things in the plan and how
we tried to come up with a plan that reduced the total number of new units certainly Protected us from any builders remedy developments,
which would, you know, be far worse than what's in the plan.
extend the controls, especially on those senior citizen units, And maximize the number of bonuses which would not be available to us.
so we tried to lay out what the parameters were, And the plan is quite detailed also to, to go into that.
so in terms of it's more why, why did the town make the decisions that we made that are in The plan?
okay. Lastly. I can't understand why all the residents who live in the areas
of this affordable housing, why they were not sent legal notices informing them as to what Was coming around the corner.
you mentioned that it's this was this was put in the courier.
well, I, for one, never read the courier. And I'm sure there are many residents in Montgomery who don't read the courier,
so that is not a very effective form of communication to montgomery residents.
I think. Everyone here is affected by that. In particular, You
know, anybody who's into these areas where there's going to be an enormous amount of Congestion amongst other issues,
their property values are all going to be affected by this. And I can tell you the house is along. 518 right behind that new development are now up For sale.
I can't imagine that at this point in time that they could. They can even give away those properties. Yep.
thank you. And by the way, we are not here to approve any developments.
we're not. No, I understand that. And if if a builder is ready to present plans, Then yes,
people who live in the area will be noticed directly. Also, this meeting, the plans for the agenda etc.
is always on the website for the township. I understand that, But we're all the residents in these affected areas,
were they notified by mail? If there is a plan for for the builder to build on on the Land,
then they will be. Yeah. Michael. Well we'll also so there's a couple steps here.
this is the master plan. The master plan doesn't create any ordinances.
ordinances are adopted. If a zoning ordinance is changed, The zoning is changed.
there would be notice to 200 foot property owners within that zone and within 200ft of That zone.
so there's a notice when the property is zoned. And there will be a notice for major development applications on those sites.
when a developer would actually come in and do the plan. So those are the two times you'll Get 200 foot notice.
and one of those notices are actually sent out. What recourse do the residents actually have in affecting those plans?
I don't know how to answer that. What is the answer? Well, what I've been telling some of the folks that I've talked to to come into the Planning office or look at the concept plan and zoom with myself or
sherry, talk a little bit about it, and provide feedback and input into what's now a Concept plan and what will become something,
you know, that would go before the planning board to get those comments in. So sherry and I would be available to do that with any residents or some of the folks that I talked to today.
we talked about that. Laura, you testified to me, To me that you you said that there would be a change in there would be a required change
in zoning, which would propagate a either a planning board or a zoning board meeting.
zoning board. Right. Depending on the scale of the change, Probably a zoning board, right? Unless the township committee,
township township committee for a zoning ordinance, It would be referred to the planning board for consistency review.
it would not go to the zoning board. Right. So the planning board then would have a Meeting, and then it would go to the township committee to adjudicate and change the
zoning. At that time, sir, you would then you would be able to speak at a future planning Board meeting,
different opportunities and a future township committee meeting to state your objection to Any,
any specific pacific development. That was why I was trying to say that these plans are Are just planned.
that it's not there's nothing approved here. I understand what the state the state is Mandating that we
provide x number of units for affordable units.
so there's no sounds to me like there's no getting around that.
the state has mandated that. Okay. If sir if you have no other questions, You certainly can come back for comments.
so thank you. Thank you. Okay. Nancy defazio.
ma'am, I'm nancy defazio and I live in skillman. Alrighty. And, ma'am, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful.
I do. Thank you. Questions. My first question was a little bit already addressed, But I just want to clarify because I have personal confusion from some from something that
was said in the january meeting. So my question first is, Is the consultant ever represent the state or consult for the state?
thank you. Sorry. Just my. So this is from confusion from a january meeting.
I'm asking if the consultant ever consults or represents this state.
man, the state's very large. I mean, there are many agencies. No, no, I know. I'm asking, does the consultant ever represent the state of new jersey or Consult or or consult for them?
yes or no? Yes. Okay. Not not as a not an affordable housing.
not not an affordable housing. Correct. Okay.
but I'm trying to, like, make this a simpler question.
so I have a question a little bit about extension of controls. And I'm basing it on something you said. So I'm not sure I understood what you said, But it sounds like because most of the building,
a lot of the building now is related to affordable housing, That less money is coming into some fund that funds the extension of controls.
so my question is where does the money come from for the extension of controls and if There's less money coming in.
is that a tax burden on the township citizens.
so let's say montgomery promenade that's under development right now.
they are not providing affordable housing. So they will pay an affordable housing Development fee when they apply for building permits for each of them.
that money goes into the dedicated affordable housing trust.
and so developments like that pay, pay into it.
and that's the money that we have available to you. So when we talked about the 100% projects. So over the years we've been accumulating our Trust fund.
and so that's why in the last round, we had money available to help subsidize the 100% Affordable projects.
so we've drawn down on that. We're recovering with new montgomery promenade is under Construction.
and so that will that those fees will go into the affordable housing trust.
but in terms of being able to have that financial burden shared between the township's Affordable housing trust fund and
the developer at the can view site, that helps us extend more controls without directly Impacting the general budget of the township.
okay, okay. Just my one one question. Like, so if there's like an 80 over 20 development, Do they give any money to the.
no. So if they build even one unit of affordable housing, They give nothing to that fund.
well, I mean, nobody's building one, but you know what I'm saying? That's correct. If it's An inclusionary development that is doing a set aside,
let's say it's 15% or 20%, they do not pay the residential fee.
however, if you have a mixed use residential and nonresidential like village walk, They will pay developer fees on all the non residential portion of that,
but they will not pay residential fees on the market rate units within that. Okay. And all the money comes from developers and and also homeowners.
if you apply for any additional square footage.
so not interior renovations but additional square footage. That's all by the state. This isn't done by the township.
that's the state as part of the the rules. Okay.
I think that's it. I just need oh, yeah. George basically just asked this question, But I wanted to ask,
are there any changes? I know you guys keep saying this isn't set in stone, But it's hard to believe that,
to be honest. So my question is what is like are there changes at this point that could Result from the public comment?
what are the most effective ways to give input and what changes could possibly result from That input?
like honestly? I want to take a shot, michael.
I mean, I'm I it's speculation. I don't know if you if you own some property that you Would like to use to develop
affordable housing, then that would be a change or could be a change.
so I have to own property I want to develop to make a change in this plan so nobody else Can make.
so public input isn't going to change anything. It's only if you have property to offer. No, I mean that's what she said.
I will answer that question in a future meeting. We could deny the application, whatever future application. We could deny it because it Doesn't meet the plan of the township.
we could. Okay. So so the best way to give is there going to be like ways to give written Comments or just speak at a meeting?
is there anything in particular? Is it the ken view site or is it? I'd like to have a time to develop more questions than what I have right this minute.
and I'm also probably going to meet other people that don't know this is happening.
so I want to be able to tell people, hey, if you have something to say about this, You can write an email to this email address or whatever.
but I need to know what that is or I can't do that.
what I've been telling folks that I've talked to, If they have the the can view plan is a concept plan.
so if so, some of the people that live in the area had had a chance to talk to they can Reach out to me or sherry.
I can give you my email, my phone number. So there's not going to be like a place where You're collecting comments from the general public.
well, I reach out to you personally. Can I ask a clarifying question?
I don't have my glasses on. Hi. I'm here. Okay. Mine are for reading. Are you questioning the the affordable housing plan numbers that We're talking about,
or are you questioning, like, what the can view site could look like?
well, my understanding is that you guys thought of not I don't. If you don't feel like you as part of this, then just exclude yourself.
but my feeling and an impression is that the people running our town think of this as just Something that we have to say yes to,
because the state has passed laws that the process creates a situation.
I'm going to. You're putting me in a position where I'm commenting, But like, you can't say no or you lose your rights.
well, and so so I it's not so my what I want to know is it's you.
it seems to be too. It's too late to object to the numbers. So I guess my question is now we have people might want to object to the plans.
so how? Besides calling somebody personally, How can the general public contact you with input?
okay. And again you're talking about the housing plan not the individual like can view Site.
correct. I don't know. I want to be able if I talk to someone and they say, Oh I don't think it should be at the kennedy site.
it's not just me. If I want to contact one of you, I will do it.
but I'm here. There's other people that don't even know about this meeting. I'm more asking for those people. How do they talk to you if they don't like ken view or They don't like the numbers or I mean the numbers,
it's that's wrong because it's too late. But if they don't like the site or they don't Like the fact that there's not enough exits from the development or whatever that is,
that's a really good question. And I would urge everybody to watch the website look at The.
so you're not going to provide like an email to, To submit like you're telling us.
we all should be gotten constant vigilance. No, No, no. If if yes. Well, well, I am a witness. I'm here, But other people aren't.
because they don't know. Okay, let's let's turn it down a little bit. First of all, I hope you understand. Hope everybody understands.
we are all residents as well. I mean, I hope everybody gets that right.
you were appointed by elected officials. Right. But we are residents of the town. I can assure everybody that when a site plan comes up to The planning board,
there will be sufficient notice. And I believe, Cheri, if someone lives within a certain amount of feet,
miles, yards, 200, 200ft, right, they will get a personal notice in their mail.
so you're not going to provide a collection place for everybody here.
she said she would. Here's the township administrator. The township administrator provided. Oh, thanks for telling me.
okay. That's it. I'm done. Here's here's the thing.
for every. For the township committee, for the planning board, For the zoning board.
if you're we are not supposed to just take comments from people who don't come to the Meeting because they
don't they haven't listened to the presentation. And I remember having an issue. I wanted to speak to the township committee about, And I had a very fussy toddler,
and I had to leave the meeting, and I wanted to leave, Drop off a letter, and they weren't supposed to look at it.
sometimes they say they'll take it as a courtesy, But the comments that come from people who haven't listened to the presentation
they may not know what they're commenting on. So that's my understanding, is why it isn't allowed.
and is that a state law about planning boards not taking letters and petitions and things Like that?
if I could clarify, perhaps it would be helpful in terms of providing comments or asking Questions about what happens
moving forward from the master plan and the housing element, Which the planning board is being asked
to approve. Both the administrator, who's also our planning director and our assistant Planning director,
sherry cruz, have stated tonight their emails are right there on the township website.
any questions? Any information you're looking for, They are available to you.
you send them an email, they will get back to you. In terms of the properties that this plan anticipates will be able to generate affordable Units.
those properties still require adoption of ordinances by the governing body.
those agendas are posted before every meeting.
in addition, each application needs a site plan.
we don't know if they need variances as well. They may. All of you within 200ft will get a notice indicating the application is coming Up.
what is the applicant looking for? Are they looking just for variances.
they also need a site plan. Where are they going to put the buildings. Where are they putting access. What kind of landscaping are they putting.
all of these issues are down the road. It will come in front of this planning board, And all of you will have the opportunity to see the
plans ahead of time to come to the meeting to raise your concerns.
to send comments to the planning director of something particular that bothers you.
the reason for planning board applications not this hearing, But planning board applications.
the reason we require people to come in person is because the state land use law requires Sworn testimony.
if I'm the developer, I'm the applicant. Letters are sent.
I say, well, that's not correct. I would like to question the person who's making these Statements.
suppose you live within 200ft of can view and you feel there is going to be a terrible Traffic
impact. Okay. The developer says, no, that's not true. Or you feel your driveway is going to be impeded and I'm just picking examples out of the Air.
the state land use law requires that you be there so that questions can be asked if you by The board as well.
if you sent a letter and said it's going to ruin my landscaping.
okay. How is that going to happen? Tell us. The board wants to know.
the developer may say, well, I'd like to know, Too. Maybe there's a way I can alleviate that. So I don't know if that's helpful, But that's the reason why at planning board
applications, we need you here in person. Deborah keenan.
keenan keenan skillman and miss keenan, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this Evening will be truthful?
I do. Thank you. So in the state plan, when they were coming up with a 260 that number, They kept certain portions
of properties out. It was considered rural or so forth.
so, mike and one of those properties is considered rural is actually in the ken view area.
so it wasn't put in as a developable site for affordable housing in the state's Calculation.
so aren't you are we concerned that when the state calculated that montgomery's number, That the rural properties that were excluded and
can view is now going to be included? Are we concerned that this could change the state's Calculations because we are opting in properties
that they would they did not include in their own calculations.
can I ask you a clarifying question on that, Deborah? Because I think it's a great point. So are you specifically,
are you testifying now that that that when the state determined the 260 that the can view Site specifically was not a part of their calculations?
is that what you're correct. It was. Thank you of the property because it was rural.
it's testimony. Can you confirm that that that testimony, Miss aaron?
well I if I to answer the question, the whether it's in or out would not change your Number at all.
but but the state calculated we're throwing in properties and saying they could come back And say hey then all of montgomery is included in this.
the court has set the number. The number cannot change. Okay. So there's no concern about that. Okay.
so if I look at the can view properties there's it's made up of four lot blocks.
okay. The one that there the developer is considering donating is not in the sewer system Area anyway.
so, you know, if they sold it to a developer, The most, they could put in this 12 houses because it's mountain zoned right around their
mountain residential. So I don't think that really kind of comes in calculation wise.
and then the other portion that is in there, Which is the commercial aspect, it is 160 acres.
so if you look at 160 acres and the zoning mountain zoning, It would only mean a developer could come in there and put in 16 if you switch it to
residential, or if you did it residential five, It would be a maximum of 32.
or even if you did the r-2 zoning, it would be a maximum of 80. And now we're talking 417. Okay. This is in an area that is southlands.
it's considered very sensitive. So why would we all of a sudden say oh 412 is, Is totally fine.
that's very problematic I think. Does anyone concerned about those numbers.
yeah. Can I ask you a clarifying question? Did your 160 acres include the wetlands also, Which would be reducing?
I don't even know. All I know is it's the. So 14. If you look at the block and lock number 14 I'm going to assume it's this is the part that Is possibly developable because 14.
is it 14001 lot two. There's a portion that's property class code of four eight, Which is commercial.
that's what they're getting. The what we get as a township, The highest level of taxation on that commercial.
and that is it. It's valued right now a net of $41 million.
right. That is the 140, sorry, 160 acres. There is another parcel that there is qualified As farm on that same side in
that I would call sewer area. And that is qualified as farm and that is 97 acres.
so I don't know how developable it is or not. But even if you said, hey, the whole thing could be, We're still talking.
if it was, that's a total of 257 acres. That would be for ten acres owning.
it's 25 buildings. It's 25 houses. We're not 417.
if you did five acres zoning, it's 51 housing, Even two acres. It's 128 a lot, right? But nowhere near 400 something units.
so I just don't know if that is, has that been brought into any kind of consideration when Just switching from commercial to residential?
so I know that the state has smart growth goals in the state plan, Which is being formulated and finished now.
and so areas with existing development like the can view site would be sites they would Recommend for redevelopment,
because they're not we're not expanding on footprint that hasn't already been degraded.
so that would be the 160 acres because the rest has not been developed. Correct. Okay. So it sounds from I know this would go in front of the township committee And zoning and stuff,
but it seems to me very problematic that this parcel is even in there. Who owns who currently owns the property? We're working with the contract purchaser.
okay. But it's currently owned by ken view, aka johnson and johnson.
so if you look at the deed and stuff, I think it still says johnson and johnson, Who made the determination from a corporation to leave montgomery and to go to summit.
right. So that is and we that's a significant amount of taxes that we get as a township For that property.
my sense is that I don't know what we're doing to make life better for them. They own the property. They're going to have to keep paying the taxes on that.
we should find the right thing that fits for montgomery. So switching it from commercial to residential, There be better be a very, very, very good reason.
a huge benefit for montgomery to even consider doing this. And I don't think just a couple of things, and they're trying to buy out of something Affordable housing.
is that so? I'm sorry it wasn't a question on that one, But I did want to clarify some of those things.
and then this idea that there is more taxes that would come in residential taxation versus Commercial taxation,
it's also how much how much of that tax dollars do you actually use generally?
commercial. They don't use a lot of the services within the town. So then to switch it to residential, it's huge.
it's massive. And so they're not equal. So my question is for plan b right.
the old municipal building site was that considered.
it was in a prior plan. But that project has moved down to this property, The 100% seniors to be closer to public transportation because there's not public
transportation up there. Okay. But it could be part of this plan, Right?
I mean, it could be this. Right? Well, I believe someone would have to buy it and then Someone would have.
or we could build it. We could build it as a as a municipality.
we're building over there. I mean, it is it's it's in our.
we could do it. Okay. It costs money and we'd have to look at the finances, But that is certainly part of it.
and we could maybe hit maybe we could do 260 units there or something.
so as opposed to opening that. So I don't know why that property isn't part of this.
so so so I. Right. So I, I know something will happen at can view.
but I think as a township we should help decide even if we're like I'm sorry that you Can't sell this to get this off your corporate books.
not our problem. Right. We should be. Let them pay the taxes until we as a township decide What works best for them.
and not just deborah, I understand. I'm not sure we can determine who they sell to or not.
no, but we don't have to change the zoning. You say, Hey, buy it the way it is.
I actually have a question for you. This hearing is about our state numbers.
no, it's not about the state numbers. Those were. I'm sorry. This is about approving. This Is about approving our plan.
right. So for. So it's not about the can view property per se.
well it is in terms of how we come up with our numbers too. In terms of the can be property. We're given this massive property and a massive pass.
they're hardly putting in any units that are actually affordable, And they're just putting in a lot of properties.
I think it's a well, they're also putting in funds in order for us to extend.
well, frankly, I would think if we wanted to change the zoning for them from something That isn't there saying they can't sell it.
well, if you want to change, we want to change the zoning. You know what? I think we're in a better driver's seat than just, Say, put a little bit of money into something else.
I think that the numbers that we've come up with on that property should be hugely should Be changed.
but I want to talk to about 23 orchard, if I may because.
is there a question. There is a question about that one. Okay. So 23 I'm sorry, 23 orchard is in the sewer service area, Correct?
yes. Okay, great. Thank you. It's commercial right now.
and I know the owners. It was bought at bankruptcy, And they're now they've just done a they've come back to the taxes and they've moved it
down to half of what they paid last year in taxes. How much do they currently pay in taxes? I don't have that off the top of my head.
can we get it for last for 2024 and 2025? Because they did come to come back to get it Reassessed.
because my point is these this developer has come in and bought a commercial property at Bankruptcy and is now actually doing a very good job of filling that property and
now saying, hey, I got to make it work for myself. So I want to put in a huge amount of units of residential units.
if that's indeed the case, then we as a township should sure as heck demand more than 20%.
right? You're changing the zoning, right? If you want a zoning change, Then 20% is nothing.
and we should be saying why not put all put 40% in there?
right. If you can make a go of it, great. If you can't, Oh well. But we shouldn't be settling for 2,020% 20. Right.
it's 20. Is it 20%. Is that the units. So how many was it for?
23. Orchard 180 total with 36 affordable. So affordable units 36 would be it.
so if we're if they're wanting to basically really develop this thing, I think 20% is not enough.
so would you consider changing it to say 40%?
I could say that as a practical matter. Project projects like that without subsidies from A municipality or from tax credit financing are
infeasible at that set aside. But we don't really even need it to be developed.
right? So why does it why would we giving it away in essence, For free?
like we should be getting something more that I would hope that the that the planning Board would really consider that either now or in the future when it comes to that.
so and then if just as just a note to people in the audience, If you want to get more information on collecting names afterwards and contact information
will keep people apprized. Thank you. Craig craig johnson, City
manager. Rom. Rom a sorry. Rom.
nope. Claude takano and paul vecchione.
kristen paul is coming. Hello. Paul vecchio and six mathew storm road.
sir, do you swear or affirm your testimony this evening will be truthful. I do. Thank you. Just a question in regards. I know the state's going to force pretty much Everything on us here.
after the adoption. I'm assuming the adoption of some plan.
if. What? What's that time frame look like after that? As far as what we have to do in the in the various steps have to be taken.
kind of. What's that general. So, so the the the housing plan element is required to be Adopted and filed by june 30th.
okay. After that, there are a series of implementing ordinances that would have to be Adopted.
and we have until march 15th of 2026 to adopt those ordinances.
all right. Would that be where the variances take place? No no, No. The variance happens at a at a hearing,
either a planning board or a zoning board application where there's a deviation from the Standard. What would happen in that step, that first part then between now and march 26th.
march 15th of 2020 2022. What would happen in there? They're the ordinances that are required to create the zoning opportunities, The ordinances,
the updated ordinances for the municipal fee ordinances.
those will all be updated and to comply with the new fair housing act and to be able to Implement the plans that are talked about in here in terms of the
inclusionary development. So any other agreements that have to be made.
okay. So at that point, I guess there's still 27 municipalities challenging that are suing The state of new jersey.
I know they've all adopted plans up to this point. Would we consider as a town or the planning board joining those 27?
because my understanding is they're opposing the formula. And then any other changes have To happen at the legislative level in between now and then,
we have an election coming up at the state level, Which could potentially change this. I think we should reach out as a group if we haven't
reached out to our state legislators already. As to our opposition to the formula, we should do that right away.
but then consider joining the other 27 municipalities, You know, against this fight about the formula,
and then let the legislative area kind of play itself out in that regard. Can I ask a clarifying question based on what you just said to our planner, The 27 towns that have filed a lawsuit?
I have one of them was that I have one of them. You have one. One of them. Okay. Did they did they ever pass a resolution as a township to To agree to the
number, or did they follow the lawsuit before that time?
I guess have have have we already missed the opportunity to do that or could we?
as as the commentator says or the questioner says, Join a.
I think they would always love to have more riders on the bus for that, Right?
I guess I'm asking your perspective as a as a planner. Not not in your opinion. Not illegal. Not legal stuff.
not not not as a yes. Yes. Based on your knowledge of the affordable housing act that was Passed.
like, warren township's still part of it. You know, Our neighbors to the north. No, I, I.
well, let me let me pull back a second and say this, That in all of the towns where we've passed resolutions,
adopted a plan, those resolutions include a caveat in there that if this litigation ends Up changing what has happened in here,
the assumptions that this is based on, or there's a change to the fair housing act that Changes things,
we reserve the right to go back and change that plan to reflect that so that that will be In there.
that's all I know is a plan. So I guess. But my question is, Did they comply with their requirement to and then file the lawsuit?
yeah, they adopted a plan. They did adopt the they adopted all 27. Adopted a plan. So so what's happened? Avoid the builder.
this is my expert. So I just want to make sure from my expert that. Yeah. But I think your point is very valid. And it's a good question. Yeah.
yeah. Yeah. Yes. Please. Please, please. I don't want to interrupt. Yeah. The the towns that I work with and the ones I'm familiar with, They all stipulated to a number,
and they figured we're going to do this, and we'll figure it out later. Maybe we'll file a Plan, maybe we won't.
and then going down the road, they decided we're going to file. And they file the plans with that caveat in there.
they still have that caveat on there that if things change because of litigation, Right.
they want that out to be able to revise their plan without fear of having builders come in And say,
no, you're changing your plan. You can't do that. So if we did adopt our plan, It would have those caveats as well.
that's what I suggest that the resolution and I think she has that too.
what's what's the downside of joining that litigation with those groups? Money.
we don't know what that amendment is. Yeah. Well that's also not a decision for the Planning board.
that would be the township committee. I mean, This whole plan is going to cost us money. So it's a matter of how much?
how what what's the process if you do have to pivot properly? Properties like if that. I want to talk about the kennedy property.
let's just say for instance variances are in passed. And I think someone brought up the state property that's restricted land, The orchard and or by the church or the right.
right. And that what does that mean? Restricted. The state would not allow us to buy that from them, Or a developer to buy it from them for this type of a project.
well, close to the school, walk to school, all that township is currently working with the State to acquire the property,
but it has a restriction on it, so we couldn't put it in the plan right now.
one, we don't control it and two, there is restrictions. So there would have to be a Process we would go through to lift those restrictions.
so that is probably a two year process. And it's a farmland restriction right.
it has to be used for farmland. I'm sorry. Say it again.
farmland restricted to farmland. That's preserved farmland. Right, right. And just to your other question, If I just I just ran some numbers quickly here to replace ken view as a site in here.
let's say you want to say there was a sea change in the township's view of this and Whatever.
to replace ken view, you would need a site or sites capable of producing over 700 market 700 total units.
how does that number get? So let me explain this. So if you assume that you you had to change ken view.
and ken view is a unique property because we're doing on site inclusionary plus the Extension of controls and there's bonuses attached to that.
we get redevelopment bonuses, we get extensions now, We don't get the extension.
we get the redevelopment bonuses. You take all that away. If you were just going to replace it with family rentals, It just zone a spot without any concept plan.
you just said this is a field that's in the sewer service. Er we're going to do that. To Replace it you would need 706 units because you would only 20% for 15% set aside on that
straight zone, because they're set aside because the set aside 15% set aside. So that Translates to 700 units.
it's the freelander given that's given. So I wanted to make sure because you were talking About replacing can view the implications of that.
or how many sites or what size site would you need for that. And this plan tried to accommodate, economize on the land and new units to try to maximize The bonuses in the production there.
so that just gives you a sense of and it's not easy to find a site where you could or two Sites where you could do 350 units each.
it's not an easy job. How big is that site? I'm sorry. Total acreage can view is the developable part.
it's 160. Two. My plan is to big.
while they're looking. Any other questions? That's good. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And as soon as they have it, They'll they'll yell it out.
thank you. Hey, sherry. Could you see who's next on the list while there?
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Christina. Christina. Thank you.
yes. Okay. Hello, everyone. I'm christina. Fire, 32 east ridge road.
ma'am, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful. Yes. Thank you. So I only learned about this meeting an hour ago.
but it seems, or most of us are trying to do the right thing for this township.
one question. When did this, however many page document come out with all the can you Stuff on it?
like when was it made available on the website?
june 13th. Was there any news of this like site plan and everything about can view prior To june 13th?
we did the information session in january where we talked about the overall numbers.
we did not specifically talk about can view at that time. Okay. How many people in this room are here? Mostly about the can view site.
okay. So I guess ten days would have been better than one hour to prepare for this.
but as being an optimist, I don't think we can stop.
my question is, has anyone to multiple questions? Has anyone looked at the impact of 417 housing units in the environmentally sensitive Area?
ken view is at the foot of the southland preserves, Which is the largest contiguous green space,
to my knowledge, between new york and philadelphia.
okay. One of the things I would add is that the township has bought a significant amount Of land up on the mountain to preserve that contiguous tree
canopy that you're referring to at a significant investment, And remains committed to it to this day.
so true. And that's. Yes. And I we moved to this township because of this township's Commitment to the environment,
to the open space and nature. So wooden and I know 700 is a lot more than 417.
but could we do everything in our power to leave that environmentally sensitive area with Wetlands that
is here, which would a lot of it been taken away by the proposed developer and find some Other
area which is more near transportation, which is already more developed and away from this Area.
I think it behooves us to do that. Okay. And if we don't
do that and the zoning comes up, and what what if we all get together and say, No, we don't want this zoning to change.
then we have this in the plan. Does that put us at risk for litigation since we already Have it in the plan?
well earlier we talked about how the contract purchaser has a plan to develop what they Call buy.
right? So under the current zoning. So I don't know if you were here for that part of the Discussion that we were having because so something's going to change that can be right
that that we understand. Right. But taking and looking at the environmental and traffic And all sorts of impact of a 417 unit
housing complex versus a research complex versus light manufacturing.
the trucks that you were talking about. Can I ask what the definition of a truck is?
is it an 18 wheeler? Is it it the big dump trucks that go down, Up and down 601 from the mine.
is it an amazon delivery truck? Right. It it could be a box truck.
it. What happened to you? It could be a box truck. It could be a tractor trailer. It could run the gamut depending on the user of.
they were doing flex space. So there would be units where someone might be creating one Thing,
and they do need a small box trucks to come and bring various parts that they assemble.
and then maybe once they're all assembled, a large tractor trailer takes it off of the Site.
so it really they, the traffic engineer kind of uses an average number, So it could be less.
it probably it could be worse, depending on the actual users. And we can't zone the users and users that go into that building so they could change.
so that so the answer is it could be it could be anything.
it could be anything. Okay. But as barbara pointed out, Looking at the traffic from 417 housing units should be compared to that
420. So I don't think we've done a good comparison for all the different possibilities of This can view property,
right? So if and I it sounds like we have a week to do this.
it's the 23rd. And by the 30th we need to approve this part plan.
realistically we have a couple of years to get any developments approved.
okay. Tonight is about approving a plan for affordable housing because I think most of us In this room
understand that. And I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of line that there will be some change,
but I feel probably that most of us in this room are against the housing unit parked in a Rural area.
if you go between 200 and 6 down to 518. It is rural all the way.
it is one of the most beautiful parts of montgomery. People even living in montgomery sometimes don't know that area back there.
so I'm going to go off book here, I apologize.
and michael said it earlier. Let's say that I think we probably all agree that this kind Of stinks.
the alternative is, though, that a developer, Maybe not the ones buying, can view today.
but a year from now, if we do not have a program or a plan, Approved developer could come in and say they want to build
1500 houses and that that would not come to this board.
that would not go to the township committee. It would go to a judge and they would decide.
yes. And I now understand that having sat through this meeting. So I appreciate that. So we're basically between a rock and a hard place, And we have to make the best of what we
have. And usually the best solution is when everybody's unhappy.
okay. The last, I guess, question, question. How many of you will
be more attentive to what's going on in this township and looking at the websites more Frequently and looking at every single
piece of paper? That's that's a question for for everybody. Not not here. Until an hour ago I was not that we support that.
so all right. We will solve this. Thank you. Thank you so much.
stephen. Voorhees. Stephen. I'm sorry. Stephen.
lauren. Paul. I'm sorry. Paul. I gotta put paul s paul.
s paul. Let's do this. Hi. My name is paul shaw.
I live in skillman. Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.
yes, I do. Thank you. So, actually, I just want to just piggyback a little bit on what Christina was just talking about and just ask about timeline,
because, again, for me, it was found out about this an hour ago.
so at the very beginning, you talked about milestones for, For, like, how we got to where we are here and where we are here.
we have an 800 page report that was provided for general consumption ten days ago.
presumably the planning committee has taken those ten days and poured exhaustively over Those 800 pages over ten days.
I just want to sort of walk backwards. So the milestone you had before that was in late March.
what happened in late march? The court issued an order approving the number of affordable Housing.
okay, but it wasn't a meeting of any sort that had any input from.
no, it was it was a it was a an order from the court. It was an order from the court. Okay. And that's when the town understood that its number Was locked in.
okay. And so a court ordered, okay, lock in this number late march.
and then prior to that, we're talking a handful of january dates. Was it? Well, in january, there was a public information meeting about what we're facing In terms of this mandate from the state and how we're going to,
you know, that we need to solve it. It talked about the need. By the end of january that the township had to stipulate to a number, And they did that by resolution.
and the resolution also said it would participate in the program.
we waited for the the court to solidify that through their order, But.
and then the next deadline is june 30th. Okay, Great. So correct me if I'm wrong, then. So to summarize in in january.
like the number was sort of discussed and decided. And then in march a court said like okay, lock in this number.
and then on june 13th we're provided an 800 page document for a june 23rd the
meeting in order to approve it by june 30th. That's correct. That's correct. Okay. And this was this was like, Is there something in the process that I'm not understanding that like,
that was like that this could have been done in a sort of more collaborative kind of way Or I don't know.
I think the timeline that you discussed is set by the state, Which is why michael probably hasn't slept.
you know, working on these 800 pages is hard to do. Yeah. So we understand where you're coming from, And the timelines are really not reasonable.
yeah. And to give you an idea, the third round plan probably took a year or more to do it Because we didn't have the gun to our head.
can can. Can I ask you a clarifying question then, Miss aaron, if you just said as a testimony that the timeline is not reasonable,
can then we. Is it possible that the township committee could file a lawsuit stating just That,
and we don't have to make a decision by june 30th? Is that is that a reasonable thing to do? You just.
I. Think so. There are towns that have asked for
extensions who have brutal circumstances in terms of, You know, whatever's going on and there hasn't been any success.
you have to fight with the court. You have to file a motion to extend the time period and The time frames that have been mentioned have been like
90 days, 60 days, things like that. I can't speak personally.
I know one's pending and it's june 30th, so you're going to have we're going to have no Way to know.
but the attorneys that I've worked with have said they've had very limited success with Any kind of extension.
it would have to be a circumstance that was truly extraordinary from what I'm hearing.
but it doesn't mean that you couldn't file. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Just a just a just a quick time check.
it's 724, and the meeting will go to eight. And we will have to continue it to thursday Night to make sure everybody gets heard.
so, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What? Fire! Fire!
oh, lauren. Long.
lauren. Long. Grandview 322 grandview road. And, Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.
yes, I do. Thank you. So, it's been very interesting to listen to this.
my understanding is that we have to commit to some lockdown numbers, Like by the end of this month.
and those locked in numbers include, like, for instance, The 400. And so how housing units from can view. Is that correct.
can view does contain in the plan 417 total units on site.
so if if something happens and they can't do the can view, Be it.
they don't get zoning permissions or they run out of money or something like that.
do we still have the obligation to find some other similar set of housing units that will Meet the requirements?
yes. So I mean, for instance, if ken view had some other brilliant use on the property or Something.
yeah, I just put it on the record that if you wanted to replace ken view with just a Straight zoning of 15% set aside,
you'd require a site that could accommodate 706 units. Wow. Okay. Anyway the only other question to have is we talked about 400 and some odd Trucks.
if we had used a light manufacturing at ken view.
what was the number of trucks that johnson and johnson had on the road during the same, You know,
during their peak? I don't have that number, But it must have been.
okay. So I guess the only other thing is, do we have.
you said you had an estimate of the number of cars that we put on for the new population, If we did,
with the 400 and some houses or you have that somewhere number that they gave us was based On their original of 617 units,
and the number of cars would have been 4065 for 24 hour period.
is that per hour? I mean, per day? Yes. Okay.
I'm sorry. Sherry, when you say 4000 odd, are you talking about trips or.
yes, trips a day. A day? Because the people in the back of ontario.
yes. Thank you. According to the traffic summary sheet that the developer gave us at 617 17
total units. The total number of trips in a 24 hour period was 4065.
at full buildout for the cam view site as the light industrial, It was 7820 for car
trips and 402 truck trips. Wow.
I have no other questions. Okay. Maria. Coachman.
hi. Maria councilman, 139 fairview road. Ma'am, Do you swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.
yep. Thank you. First. Thank you. I know a lot of you are volunteers, And I appreciate it,
because that would be. That would be all. All of us. And and I'm going to add more grief. I'm sorry.
who determined the lot sizes can view since I'm in that neighborhood because my Neighborhood is mountain rural.
we have ten acre zoning, and you want to put something with lots marked and feet right Next door to our area.
I actually counted within a mile of the driveway of grandview circular.
there's like 300 houses, and you want to put 400 on 160 acres.
can you justify how they came up with these tiny things?
lots. So we had alluded to a higher number that they came up with in terms of a site Suitability.
so the township was not agreeing to 600 plus units.
and so the total number of units is backed into from what is needed on the property.
so it's a mix of single family townhomes and so we should be grateful it's not 600.
and we're getting 400. I did not say that I was just. You asked how we arrived at the total lot number.
another question. Another question. Your calculation of the 600 something houses that Would needed to be replaced can view does that.
the view developer is proposing to give money for the buybacks.
and without that buyback money you would need more housing. Is that your cash? It's threefold actually. It's it's the extension of controls that are Off site.
so we would have to load them back in. It's the law requires a 15% set aside.
so that means that there's more more market rate units to get to the number that we would Need to make up.
and we're at what set aside with both the on site and off site. We're at 26. So that's that differential. And isn't there?
there was a third. Not to cut you short, but I get it. I'm trying to speed it up. In addition to that question, You are putting in 20.
I don't know, it's 22 extensions and 24 surplus as extra stuff.
that's 46 units. You're putting 70. That's more than half of what's happening at at ken View.
and I do understand the ken view has to be developed. I get that we always knew that. We've lived there 33 years.
but I don't understand the desire, the desire to change the entire character of art.
we chose to live there because of the open vistas, Because of the large housing lots and going to
change. Change the nature of that part of town.
and my belief is that just going to be the start of the creep that happened on the other Side of 206,
which is why I would not live there. It's just not my choice of where I want to live.
it's fine for a lot of people, but I chose to live in an area that was rural, And you want to go against that fairly severely
and change that dynamic. I understand some of it does have to do with the sewer service Area.
and so the town has tried to reduce where development can be through limiting the sewer Service area limits.
so all about poop. It's all about poop. I get it, I and I understand that and I understand that we are in an
area that's heavily, you know, it's all septic and wells which goes to another issue That's for down the road of if
there's going to affect our aquifer, etc., etc..
sorry. Your comment about the tax revenue is higher from residential than from what jay aa Or
can view currently. But in my 33 years of living here, The township school district has gone from 1500 students to
5000 something students, which has increased my taxes over 400%.
and I don't see how getting a little more money for the houses will change that tax Revenue.
and I wish you would explain how you think that's going to benefit our town.
and thank you. That's all for now. Do you want to talk about how that works?
just before the next person comes up I just want to clarify the 22 units, The extensions that we have to purchase.
in the fourth round, we cannot use in the fourth round because we have a senior cap.
so we those will be banked for a future round, Right? We're limited to those. Yes. In this there are 24 surplus units which gives us that Flexibility.
should we have a little slide in any of our other areas. Right. We have a quick question. Do we have any recourse?
I heard it mentioned before that pike run decided they didn't want to be involved in the Equation or the extension of
controls. Do we have any recourse for properties like that, Or is it just.
yeah, I don't want to be involved. Leave me alone. Or is there anything that we can do in The event that and then this is just hypothetical,
that the can of you site doesn't, you know, go through it goes before the board and we, We make a decision that,
you know, it's not going to happen in terms of the zoning. And we need the, The affordable credits.
is there any way that we could sort of discuss that with other properties?
I just thought about that when I heard about the bike run thing. Other properties? Yes. But the the extension of controls at pike run is governed by a Series of documents that are legal documents and
recorded documents, and they don't give us the the right to sue essentially over that Extension.
okay. Jake schwartzman. How's it going? Jake schwartzman
920 cherry hill road. Sir, do you swear or affirm any testimony you give this evening will Be truthful.
yes. Thank you. So I just want to preface by saying this is kind of my first time at a, At a at something like this.
I don't I don't quite know what I kind of heard about this last night. I don't even fully know what this is. I just heard about what's going to happen to the Kennedy thing. I don't know who all these people are or anything. I'm pretty new to this,
as I think some people here might be. But my question.
yes. So I, I feel like it. My question has kind of changed as I'm sitting here listening To everybody's questions,
and it's kind of like, it sounds like we're being almost bullied into this in that we have To like,
I know we have to add some sort of some sort of housing, Low income housing or something.
but like, why can view why do we have to redevelop it? People, people are saying we have to redevelop it. Why can't you just why can't it just be Because we have power as the town to say,
no, you can't rezone this. And no, like I just, I think there's so many different consequences on a larger scale,
which I can talk about if I won't get to the comments, But I can talk about it later.
but like, I think there's so many consequences and more things that this says other than Just,
oh, we're putting up more housing, like this is kind of a big deal and messes up the whole I just think it's a really awful idea.
and it's like, how is there anything we can do about this? Because it's really being made sound like we're being bullied into this or forced into This.
that's really what it sounds like to me. And unfortunately, That bullying started, I think,
somewhere around 1976, in the state. So but why does it have to be?
why does it have to turn into. I went to preschool actually in that in that I've lived Here my entire life.
monti, class of 2021 I went to preschool, the jnj preschool.
bright, bright horizons. That's back there. Why do we have to change it? Why? Why does it have to be all this, this housing that's going to screw up the southland Mountains,
which is beautiful. This whole town is beautiful. But the southland mountains. That's so Beautiful. Why do we have to put housing there? Why are we. Why does it sound like we're
being bullied into this? Someone purchased the property, Right?
right. So can you. Is selling the property, the purchase, The company buying the property has an option,
a concept to develop it under the current zoning. So they have the right to do that. We kind of refer to it as the bi-rite plan.
and that was where the truck traffic conversation was, Was abuzz about.
so their redevelopment could either be under the current zoning, Which we don't have legal authority to stop them from doing.
or an alternative. Who's in charge of the zoning that, That says they can't rezone it because that's the municipal land use law.
so the state says to each town, we're giving you the right to zone.
this is how you will. This is how these are the rules you will follow. And so the property is zoned limited manufacturing now.
so they have the right to to develop it and redevelop it under that current zoning.
so it's above the town it's state it's state level that zones. It does that. So yeah the town zoned it limited manufacturing when j and j first developed The property,
and it has stayed that zoning through all these years.
the town had hoped that they can view, and through their sale would find a buyer that Would be similar to what operation is leaving.
but that did not happen. The company that's buying it has two options that they've put Forth to the town.
we can develop it under the current zoning, which would be this flex industrial space or a Residential,
which would require zoning. So they can do they can do the flex industrial under the Current zoning.
and the housing would need to be done through a zone change. So it could be done through affordable housing.
it could be done. They could sue the town and say we, You know, we can't develop it as a commercial.
so or you let's say they, they applied to do their buy right plan and the township denied The zoning.
sorry. The planning board denied it. They can sue and say to the judge this is a permitted Use.
you have to. You know, let me let me do this. We'd likely be overturned unless there was something, You know, and then they have some right to develop it in some way.
so if it's not under the current zoning, it could, You know, it could be housing then.
so we can't zone for farmland or open space so that it could just remain, You know
open and I guess a decaying office building because they wouldn't at that point take it Down.
okay. I'm still confused. I'm not. No, no, I hear what you're saying, But I don't know how to I don't know how to argue it because I'm not I don't know I don't
know how to. I don't know how it all works. Any alternatives? I'm not a politician. I'm just, you know. But I just think. I think it's really important that we fight hard to To keep it how it is,
I don't know. That's, that's that's basically the moral of my whole thing. I think everybody here agrees with me. Okay. Lawrence, Can I.
can I actually, I mean, you you just raised a point, Laurie. Actually, that. That caused me to ask a question in a different way.
I think I've already asked it, but if if. If johnson and johnson never left.
if ken view never sold their property, what would be the alternative then?
where? What is your what would would would have been the town's plan if johnson and Johnson was still a viable property?
in in the past, we sometimes have had like, backup alternatives.
we didn't have any backup alternatives for this plan. So if this were to fall through, you would come we would come back to the planning board To amend the plan to say this particular project
mechanism isn't working, and we would need to come up with another idea.
but but the numbers would stay the same. I mean, Well, under michael's calculation, we would be looking for land that could accommodate
706 correct housing units. Right. That's what I mean. That's right. Yeah, but. And I don't want multiple pieces.
yeah, I think I would like to talk too much. Thank you.
hello. We are the cg from coldstream court at skillman.
all righty. Do you both swear or affirm any testimony you give will be truthful.
yes. Thank you. We do. Thank you. Voila. So I was I was at this at this meeting since the Beginning,
and I listened to the whole the whole meeting.
and I was wondering if you're going to do more work for the township or if your job is Stopping today.
I didn't understand the question. Both of you. I mean, have you finished your mission? And is it the summary of what you propose?
or are you continuing to work for the township? Yeah. So first of all, the adoption of the housing plan doesn't end the process, Right?
the adoption of the housing plan, we still there's still ordinances that need to be done. There's agreements that would need to be done. And over the next, You know, 4 to 8 months those things would happen.
that okay. But your job I would like to know you your job.
are you continuing to recommend something or does it stop today?
was it your final recommendation? What you shared with us today?
let me be very clear. As a as the consulting affordable housing planner, My job is to work with the town to help develop a plan that fits the rules and the law.
and that's what I've done. The decisions about how these sites can in here, That's.
I'm an adviser. I'm not a decider. Yeah. So I work with the town. Thank you. They're behest. Thank you. So I want to tell you you gave me the impression That you were
paid by the developer and not by the township. Because you you to you, the people you represent.
because all that you showed us was one planner, One choice.
let me finish. Let me finish. We don't have a lot of time.
so you you you said there is there. Is there a question?
because you have. Yeah, it's my question. So I haven't I mean, This is I have not finished with my question.
okay. So you know, we are attached to this site.
you were trying to hide during the whole meeting that it was owned by johnson and johnson,
but the deed is owned by johnson and johnson. So you are seeing can view. Can view. Can view is almost gone.
okay. So you said earlier that the developer said that there would be 4000 trucks.
so, you know, whatever the number. Yeah. So the thing is, Can you be a little more objective instead of,
like, saying what the developer said, can you please, Like, like have a multiple what if what did we do to have a
research group take over the site? What effort has been made?
all the what? The impression you gave us tonight is that all the efforts were made to Build additional housing.
that's it. This is all. This is the only solution.
this is not the solution. Ma'am, I have to limit you to a two question if you have if you Have comments and you want to just talk rationally,
that would be great. There's no reason to yell at anybody. I mean, there really isn't. Okay. Okay.
have you confirmed that the deed for that property is in the name of j and j right now, And not can view?
what? What would it matter? We are dealing with the contract purchaser. Okay. So that goes to my next question. No, I'm dealing with the contract purchaser.
yeah. My next question is why are you dealing with the contract purchaser if the numbers Won't change,
regardless of what the owner of the property is?
because why are we having conversations with the contract purchaser that hasn't is that That's who's going to be owning the property?
well, they are contract purchasers, which means that it's not a done deal yet, Right?
so we don't know if the deal is going to go through. So why are we dealing with them like they are going to be the owners?
ken view has said this is who you will be speaking with. We are no longer discussing the property. We're selling the property to this company.
right. But that property is only going to be purchased if they like what you decide.
so they you can make decisions that they're not going to like, And then the contract won't go through and then it will remain as it is.
so they are very interested in buying the property under the current zoning.
yes. They'll just they'll just, you know, that's what they that's what they have.
let me let me get to my next question. I hear your answer. I'm just trying to move it along. Is there an advantage to being a part of the lawsuit?
to the extent that the court could decide that the participants in the lawsuit get a Particular remedy,
that people who are not in the lawsuit won't get?
I mean I. Possible I mean if the if that litigation results in let's let's
make a proposition here. Let's say that that litigation results in a change to the fair Housing act that impacts everybody.
right. But it could result in changes for the obligations of individual municipalities.
right. They're not they're challenging the law and not not just not just for their not Just for theirs.
yeah. Last thing. The property of the form of municipal building.
could we change the zoning of that now to make it entirely low income and thereby relieve The burden from other properties to it?
is it is it within your authority to change the zoning for that one piece of property?
so that I talked a little bit about why 100% percent affordable is not the best option for The
town to pursue right now, including the strain on ems.
the cost to the taxpayers because our affordable housing.
what's the current zoning of the municipal building? The old municipal building. It's Zoned ppe,
public parks and education. Okay. So we can at least make it residential with a high Percentage.
now to make it easier for someone to come in and do a deal there and take some of the Credits.
we would have a different 50 people that are in here. Okay. All right. That would say not in my backyard either, Right.
okay. Diane. Got a quick one before diane gets up.
do do we have enough property to accommodate the number in the event that
can view is not approved. Are there enough lots or properties that we can engage
to to support the number in montgomery? So you would need to look at properties that have Public water and public sewer.
and and they're large enough that could support 700 and some.
but the other thing is there's a practical reality.
is there a practical reality to the scale of a project that would actually be feasible in Some places where you have very small sites,
you can get away with very small little developments that are inclusionary, But when you're talking about 15%,
you need a project that can support at least at six, Five, you know, five total units at six units per acre,
per the law. Okay. How many of those can you cobble together because you get one for every One of those projects.
so there's a scalability that's important to this. In terms of the market and understanding that, The other point I should make is that the the law really recognizes that the public,
the the private sector developers are largely the the entities that will create affordable Housing,
whether they are the 100% affordable developer or the 15%, You know, pulte or whatever they are.
it's the private sector that does most of this, And the implementation is really there. So they call the tune in terms of whether it's feasible or not.
and if we have a site that's sitting there for eight years and it hasn't been built, We're going to be replacing it. So they have to be they have to have feasibility. And when
the developers approach, we have to consider those. And those are the ones that are presumed to be feasible because the developer has said This is what it takes.
right. That's a good answer. Okay. Again, time check.
nine minutes left. So I'll be quick, ma'am. Diane. Last name diane taylor, 213 grandview road. 14.
do you swear or affirm? Any testimony you may give will be truthful? Yes. Thank you. I do have just a couple questions.
well, I'll tell you. My father sold the property to jay and jay back in the 70s for the Purpose of bringing in commercial
type. I don't know what you want to call it, But instead of seeing 700 houses, a thousand houses,
whatever you're going to put in there. With that said, I know it was brought up about the ten acre zoning.
is there a line in the southland mountains where that ten acre zoning begins and ends?
yes. Like, I mean, we live about a half mile from the jnj or.
sorry, can you. And if we we own the farm at the top of the hill, And if we were to sell the farm,
we're ten acre zoning a half a mile away from this.
so what is that border? Or pretty much right at the at the end of the can view property.
so the sewer service area ends and that's where the limited manufacturing zone is.
so as you come up the hill, because they own a small little house that sits there on that Hill.
so you're telling me to basically my property line, My property line to fairview is where the ten acre zoning begins.
you're on the corner of grandview and fairview.
yes. And there's one small. You own the christmas tree farm, Right?
and there's two small lots on in the front along grandview. Right. One is ours, and one is the neighbors right on the corner.
yeah. Okay. So, yes, your property line is the dividing line.
it's limited manufacturing to you. And then it goes to mr.. So based on the map that I had seen that it doesn't look like they're going to develop From my property line to where that wetland sort of
begins down the road, correct? Yeah, I think the concept plan shows it in the area of the Buildings.
right? Sorry, I have a zoning map. There, there, There.
that's fine. Thank you. All right. Question answered.
okay. The other thing was, have you considered truly the impact on the schools?
I mean, I work for the school and we're nearing capacity, And you're going to put in 400 and some odd more houses.
average two kids to the schools. It's going to eventually affect all of us as taxpayers, Because you're going to ask for more taxes
so we can support the schools. So I can answer that.
the planning department does analyze that. We obtain the data directly from the school District,
and we apply a public school children ratio to the housing type.
so if it's apartment, townhome, single family. So all of the ratios that we develop are based on the actual numbers of public school Children residing in similar types of development in montgomery township.
we get that data from the school. Companion to that is the june 2024 enrollment report That the board of education prepares,
and they work with demographer doctor ross haber. They have for years. So he concluded in his 2024 report that the montgomery township Schools have decreased in enrollment between 2018 and 19 and
2023 and 24 school years. When reviewing earlier enrollments 2010 to 11, The enrollment was considerably higher 5091.
that's the bubble that sometimes we used to talk about. This indicates that notwithstanding added programs or repurposing of classrooms that the District will not have issues with instructional space over the next five years,
even with the impact of new housing added. The decline in enrollment should be mitigated, But will only reach current enrollment levels.
okay, so that's from the board of education's demographer, And he prepared that report.
so we did take the data that I talked about, The number of public school children that are generated by different developments in in
town. So through the can view plan through number of single family townhomes
condos, apartments there. Would we project 291 public school children.
okay. And that has different and this is based this is based on actual student numbers of Similar developments.
so country club estates that's our latest single family house. We take a look at every student that comes out of that development and we come up with That ratio.
so I heard you say two per. It may be surprising, But I'm telling you, we use actual data that we obtain from the school district.
that's 0.81 public school children per household.
for the townhomes we use the development across the street. That's 0.973 public school children. So that generates that's where we're coming up with That 2.91.
it's based on actual data that we obtain from the school. And we apply that that ratio to this. And 23 orchard would be 40, 56 public school
children. With the combination of 144 market rate, One and two bedroom units and 36 affordable
units. Now that between those two developments, We're looking at 347.96 students.
we did also run the numbers on the do nothing scenario. We call it the do nothing scenario. It means that we don't adopt a plan and we allow Developers,
if they're interested, they will come and they sue the township on the builder's remedy.
we use those numbers. And actually now I guess they're a little bit lower since I was Using the for market rate per and those would be so this number will be lower
than if we ran it a different way. 952 public school children.
so our plan does have 63% less public school children than if we did nothing.
and we we allowed the developers to just, you know, Come in with a plan and sue us, and we go before the judge to do that.
and that number I just want to say will be higher because I was using a mark, A different market rate,
the old market rate multiplier, which has increased. Okay. Last question is the sewage. Sewerage. I mean can you currently has their own Self-contained contained
treatment plant. What is this builder's plan? Are they going to try to tap into the one are.
the one that the school is currently using which is a public one or city sewer?
we all have wells and skeptics up there. So, You know, city sewer is something foreign to me a little bit.
but have you considered that impact on that system?
I didn't hear the what did you hear? The question is it has to do with the service area or Will there be an impact on your septic and.
well, well, obviously there'll be an impact on septic and. Well, because it has to do with the aquifer. But my question is can you currently has Their own treatment plan?
j and j have their own treatment hooked up to public sewer and public water. So there won't be an impact on the aquifer. They won't be drawing from the same aquifer That your well does.
so it will be city water they're going to be connecting then to like the sullivan lake, Which is what the school is at that septic.
yes. That the the skillman village plan, gilman village, Sullivan lake, depending how long you lived here.
I think one more question. And it's just with all the traffic, Whether it's the trucks or the cars that you feel are going to be up and down
this country road. A traffic light at the bottom of grandview and 601 with the railroad Track being there.
if you've ever driven on that road at any rush hour, You can't make a left for a very long time.
so the our traffic engineer said, under any of the scenarios, Whether it's the bi-rite, so the existing zoning,
if they were to redevelop under the existing zoning or a residential plan, A traffic light is warranted at that intersection because years ago with j and j,
you had mentioned like 7000 cars in 24 hours. There were not 3500 employees at j&j. We didn't have that traffic at all.
I don't think they were saying that was the traffic under the if they were to redevelop Under the flex,
the office, the not the not back then under j and j. No, but it would still be the same type of limited manufacturing or, You know, trucks or whatever coming in and out of there and never at full
capacity that they were running. Was there ever that much traffic?
I what is it the it the institute of. I'm just thinking the traffic impact is going to be Big either way,
whether it's housing and or left at limited manufacturing or and they'll you'll have to Consider that because 601 will become the new
206. Thank you. Thank you. Sand car. Okay. Actually, That was going to be the last
question, laurie, for tonight. We have reached 8:00.
we're close. I mean, is it is it possible that we would continue tonight?
I mean, I would be amenable to that. I think it's a preferable solution then coming back.
thursday is a limited time. We have a community event. That's the community we all want to participate in.
so I would extend my time personally. Yep. I just want to make sure everybody gets a Chance to be heard.
okay. So we do it today. So can we get an idea of how many folks still have to go?
how many more questions do we have? Raise hands. One. Two more. Three more questions. Would people like to forego their questions and go to Comments?
no. I want to go through all the finish the question. Yeah, let's finish it off. They got three. Yeah.
I we can't be here forever, is what? The point is. We can't be here forever. Here. Is that okay?
before before this gentleman comes up. How many people have comments to make?
well, frank. Five. Six. Seven. Okay, so if we limit everyone's comments to three minutes, Does everybody promise to try to stick to that
30 minutes. Okay. Very good. I'm sorry. It seems logical to
me. I'm going to get three minutes to interview.
okay. We can stop. We can stop now. Okay. Yes. So we can stop. We we can I it. We have to be reasonable, right?
we can stop now. You ken. It's ridiculous. Why don't you stand up for us and fight and do These
things? We don't have this at all. Why do you let it get this far? We don't even need to the day before. You should be fighting for us.
what did you say? Thank you. Sir. Sir. Sir. Sir.
sir! I can't hear you. Please, sir. We have a lot of people. I hear you, sir. Sit down please. Okay. Shame.
shame on it. I think I think we should stop this for tonight, Then. I was willing, I was willing, I was, I was willing to offer my time.
yeah, I was okay. We will continue this till thursday night at 5:00.
we've noticed. Correct. Thank you sir. Yes. Thank you. So we will continue this to thursday at 5 p.m..
we are. What happens when we're not reasonable? Right. We're done. Well, I think I don't.