[0:04] All right, we will call the work session
to order. Call the roll, please.
[0:10] » Brown.
>> Here.
[0:11] » Calvin.
>> Here.
[0:13] » Cornelius.
>> Here.
[0:14] » Pratt.
>> Here.
[0:16] » McGehee Ready.
>> Here.
[0:17] » Wick.
>> Here.
[0:18] » Yore.
>> Okay.
[0:22] This is the portion of the work session
that we invite the public to address the
[0:26] commission. If you would like to do so,
we ask that you come to the microphone,
[0:30] give us your full name, residential
address, and abide by our 3-minute rule.
[0:37] Okay, seeing none, we will move on to
our discussion of our rental ordinance
[0:41] amendments, Mr. Shipman.
>> Well, I don't remember the last time we
[0:46] talked about it, but I know your request
is simply just from the city attorney,
[0:49] which she did, and I sent that to you
by email a couple weeks ago and once I
[0:54] got it,
a couple hard copies of the first
[0:57] » I got I got you. I got I got hard copies
if anybody would like
[1:00] » Awesome.
[1:12] » Just this once.
>> We need the latest one.
[1:15] » I just read pages of it yesterday, and
like I can't remember good enough.
[1:19] » Yeah.
>> The opportunities present itself.
[1:22] » I tried reading it digitally and my eyes
were just
[1:26] No, no idea what I just read. Got to do
it on paper.
[1:35] » So, I don't know if you
>> I would say
[1:38] » requested anything additional
um to what we've already changed to this
[1:42] point.
>> Yeah. Um
[1:45] I actually I had uh a couple things um
I had one question.
[1:50] The The first one was about the uh
complaint review. I think it's on page
[1:54] seven.
Um
[2:00] Yes. Okay, and then um
section E.
[2:05] So
the
[2:08] uh we got rid of the
um misdemeanor part, right? If someone
[2:13] submits
um
[2:15] uh a number of claims that turn out to
be false,
[2:20] uh it's no longer a misdemeanor.
Um
[2:23] does that These claims, do they go
before the administrative hearings
[2:26] bureau and can they assess a fine on
someone who continues to
[2:30] um file false complaints on
uh a landlord?
[2:36] Or the other way around?
[2:40] » So, the previous language regarding
harassment, um in my time with the city,
[2:43] we've never once utilized that section.
>> Okay.
[2:46] » Um it would it would be a criminal
misdemeanor handled through district
[2:49] court.
But again, we've never once used that
[2:52] section or enforced it. Um that's why we
changed that to this complaint review
[2:56] process instead.
Um
[2:59] we thought that the harassment language
kind of deterred the tenants from making
[3:02] complaints, which we encourage them to
do so when there are issues. So, that's
[3:06] why we we did the switch to the
complaint review
[3:09] um wording instead.
>> Thank you. No, that's really great.
[3:14] Um the other stuff I had was outside of
the changes here, so I'll wait for
[3:19] people to talk about the changes here.
[3:25] » Right. Did you have anything else?
>> my I was just going to say the one
[3:29] area that we left uh you left in my
hands is
[3:33] just cuz we thought it needed a little
bit more
[3:36] thought and for me, I couldn't think
quick enough at the meeting was section
[3:41] 3A
on page three.
[3:46] Um
>> It's just semantics, right?
[3:49] » Yeah.
[3:55] » Oh, the within 30 days thing?
>> Yeah.
[3:58] » Yeah.
[4:04] » I thought it made sense. The way it is
now.
[4:07] » So, it looks this way.
>> With that this part?
[4:10] » Yeah.
>> With the red.
[4:11] » Oh, with the red. Yeah, that's new since
our last meeting.
[4:13] » Yeah. No, I think it makes total sense.
[4:23] That on the shelf also be responsible
for providing an inspection in 30 days.
[4:27] » The other ordinances that The other
ordinances I looked at
[4:31] were had a much shorter timeline, but I
think 30 days is still very reasonable.
[4:38] » More like 2 weeks or something?
>> I saw 10 days. It was probably 10
[4:42] business days though, so yeah, 2 weeks.
>> Okay.
[4:54] You all good with this?
>> I'm good.
[4:57] » Anybody else have any
Are we good?
[5:03] » Commissioner Brown is going to think
it's something.
[5:05] » Not necessarily, Bob.
Cuz I you know, we've gone over this.
[5:10] » We have a few times.
>> Yeah.
[5:12] » Okay.
>> Yeah, yeah, please.
[5:13] » So, I finally found some time and
thankfully it was yesterday, so it's
[5:17] fresh on my mind
about what other communities have done
[5:21] in terms of their rental ordinances and
I found a couple things. The first was
[5:25] that
our rental ordinances are actually
[5:28] pretty pretty good compared like a lot
of cities that have redone theirs are
[5:32] getting to the point where ours work in
some regards.
[5:35] But, I also saw a few things that other
communities did that I
[5:38] thought it would be good to discuss. Not
necessarily that we should pick all of
[5:42] these things up, but
it would be be to get more information
[5:46] on them or to know if these were uh
issues. Um so, the first one was um
[5:52] in tenants receiving information on
their rights. I emailed this around to
[5:56] everyone, um but I found that uh the
city of Ann Arbor and the city of
[6:02] What was it? East Lansing? Sorry,
Ypsilanti. Both have an ordinance that
[6:06] requires um
the landlord at the time of the rental
[6:10] agreement to give the tenant a copy of a
booklet with their rights and
[6:15] information from the city about how to
file a complaint um
[6:19] and and other information like that. Um
the state law and the
[6:23] city ordinances, but you know, in a way
that's much easier to read than than
[6:28] this.
So, I could send around that. Um
[6:32] really the way the ordinance is written,
it just says that the city shall provide
[6:35] the city clerk with booklets explaining
the rights of tenants under the city and
[6:39] state law. The clerk should make those
booklets available to landlords and
[6:42] their agents. They can pick those up at
the clerk's office, and then they must
[6:46] give those to the tenant at the the time
that they start a new lease, not just uh
[6:51] not at any point.
Only the first time. So, I can send over
[6:54] both of these. The language is slightly
different on uh on those, but I thought
[6:59] that would be really helpful um
just for people to know what they're
[7:03] getting into and what their rights are.
Um
[7:06] » On that, may I did see in the email
Brian's plan of at least putting a link
[7:10] on the website
of the landlord-tenant stuff at the
[7:14] state level. So, that's at least one
step in that direction already. But
[7:18] yeah, I would I would definitely be
curious to see kind of what Ipsi and uh
[7:22] Lansing and Ann Arbor
did, kind of how that
[7:26] how that works out in the details.
>> Yeah. Yeah, the the websites um I found
[7:32] that they had websites that did have all
that information. It was extremely easy
[7:35] to navigate and get links to all that
stuff, too. Um so, maybe it doesn't need
[7:39] to be be
as well, but, you know,
[7:43] um
[7:45] That That was a good point on that.
The other thing, um
[7:51] what I found was that some cities uh So,
the state doesn't have a cap
[7:55] uh and most cities don't have a cap on
application or pre-tenancy fees. So, I'm
[7:59] not necessarily saying that we should,
either, but I was was wondering I wonder
[8:03] what the average um
uh application fee is in the city.
[8:09] Um for a lot of people who are applying
for a couple of rentals, and those fees
[8:14] kind of add up. And so, if it's
somewhere between like 50 and 150
[8:18] dollars, which is what I remember when I
got my apartment off of Grosbeck,
[8:23] um
if you have to apply for a bunch of
[8:25] those, that really adds up quick. So,
um and so, the city of Ann Arbor came up
[8:30] with an ordinance that uh essentially
said landlords need to come up with
[8:35] really how much it costs to figure out,
you know, do a background check, do a
[8:39] credit check, all those things. Um and
if their application fee is above that,
[8:44] uh if they don't choose you for that
rental, they need to give you the money
[8:47] back that they didn't use um to do that.
Um I don't know if that's a good fit for
[8:52] us, but I thought it was an interesting
concept.
[8:55] I would be curious to see from renters
in our community if they're applying to
[9:00] multiple um places at once, um and if
that's become a burden for them. I think
[9:06] in Ann Arbor, because it's a college
town, people in the demand is so high,
[9:11] people are applying to a lot. And so, I
I understand why they did it.
[9:15] But I thought that was a question I just
didn't have an answer to. And those
[9:19] pre-tenancy fees were like, you know,
holding fees, option fees,
[9:24] um
not the security deposit, but just, you
[9:28] know, they come up with fees for
everything. So, um once again, I'll send
[9:32] this around, but I found that to be
really interesting.
[9:35] Um
and then so, I also found a lot of
[9:39] information from Ann Arbor about
discrimination.
[9:42] They have a very, very comprehensive
discrimination
[9:47] or anti-discrimination
ordinance that just governs how they run
[9:52] their city, but particularly toward
housing, their discrimination ordinance
[9:57] says that no person shall discriminate
in leasing, selling, or otherwise making
[10:01] available
any housing facilities. Um now, of
[10:05] course, there was the state law on
discrimination, which has been expanded
[10:08] a little bit, but they also said that no
one should be denied housing based on
[10:13] actual or perceived age, arrest record,
color, disability, educational level,
[10:18] ethnicity, familial status, family
responsibilities, gender expression,
[10:23] gender identity, genetic information,
height, HIV status, marital status,
[10:28] national origin, political beliefs, um
source of income such as like vouchers,
[10:35] veteran status, being a victim of
domestic abuse, stalking, or weight.
[10:40] Um and so, I don't know because
um I don't know how many complaints
[10:44] we've had on this
or if we've had any at all,
[10:48] um
if this is something that would
[10:51] make a difference here, but it is
something that um I thought was
[10:55] interesting and it went a little bit
further than the state law.
[10:58] Um
So, it was interesting.
[11:01] » Spencer, Spencer, which
municipality did that come from?
[11:05] » This was Ann Arbor.
>> Okay. That's what I thought you said.
[11:07] » So, yeah.
Um
[11:11] Yeah, those were and then also, if you
really want to do some research, um
[11:16] I was reading about right to renew
ordinances. Once again, I don't know if
[11:19] they're that's a great fit for us, but
it was just interesting to to see what
[11:23] other communities have put together
to create more stability for people who
[11:27] want to remain in their community as
renters.
[11:29] » All right.
>> So, I'll email this to everyone so can
[11:33] get out and look at it, but thanks.
>> Can we Have you ever had any complaints
[11:38] like that on in any of that?
>> No, we don't really get complaints
[11:43] regarding fair housing issues. It's
generally just the condition of the of
[11:46] the rental unit itself.
[11:50] » How common are
complaints regarding the condition of
[11:54] the rental?
>> Um I think they're not as common as what
[11:59] you probably believe and maybe that's
partly because the tenants don't know
[12:02] that the program exists that we have a
rental inspection program, but
[12:06] I would say maybe
one a week, which really isn't that many
[12:10] in the grander scheme of things, but
they it does happen.
[12:13] » Yeah, it's not it's not nothing, but
it's not like a flood of them either.
[12:16] » Correct. And and we do find ourselves
when there is a tenant complaint, it's
[12:20] often stemming because the tenant's
being evicted for for whatever reason.
[12:24] Um and so there there's tenant versus
landlord and we're trying to they try to
[12:28] get us in the middle sometimes, so we do
our best to just follow our ordinance
[12:31] and the guidelines and stay out of that
that type of situation.
[12:39] » All right. Anything else? Any
Anything further on this one?
[12:45] » I do. I see a little note I had made.
Just one little note, Rob.
[12:50] Under um
um let's see what section this this is
[12:54] eight.
Uh
[12:57] Under section eight inspections
on page seven under E, complaint review.
[13:05] Um
I kind of took
[13:10] issue with one particular
example
[13:14] uh where it reads that last sentence
under the complaint review, "Nothing in
[13:19] this article shall require the city to
conduct an inspection based solely upon
[13:24] a complaint that lacks sufficient
information or appears to be frivolous,
[13:28] repetitive, or made in bad faith.
I thought repetitive really is not a
[13:33] negative. It just means it's a
reoccurring problem sometimes and it
[13:37] hasn't been resolved. Of course, if it's
frivolous, that's that goes without
[13:42] saying or made in bad faith, but I
wanted to know if we would consider
[13:46] striking repetitive because sometimes
you do have to keep asking for the same
[13:50] things.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I would be fine with
[13:54] » I I mean I
I agree with you in in some nature, but
[13:58] I've also had a person who
who has
[14:03] given me the same complaint
in a repetitive nature because they
[14:08] don't like the answer.
>> Looking for another answer. Yeah, that's
[14:13] kind of a
>> So, um that would be my It's almost to
[14:16] the point of harassment.
You know, um like
[14:19] » Yeah, when you can't accept that you hit
a brick brick wall, but I don't want
[14:24] people to think that once you raise an
issue once in some of these housing
[14:29] situations that you can't raise it
again.
[14:32] » Sure. Sure. Yeah.
>> And I think even if you take out I think
[14:35] if you take out the word repetitive,
if it is
[14:39] still having frivolous or made in bad
faith or lacks sufficient information, I
[14:43] think
[14:46] those kinds of issues could still be
covered in that way normally cuz if it's
[14:52] repetitive but not frivolous and not in
bad faith,
[14:57] They almost beat It's hard to almost
imagine that situation.
[15:01] » I If I really want to go forward with
something, but then the person would
[15:04] know.
>> But I think what you're speaking to,
[15:09] Mayor Laura, falls under
bad faith. Right.
[15:14] So, that's really covered there cuz you
said it border borders on harassment.
[15:18] » Yeah. I mean
Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully it would be bad
[15:22] faith, I suppose.
>> Yeah.
[15:26] Bad faith is a um
broad
[15:29] » Pretty broad.
>> subject. Yeah, subjective, too. So, I
[15:32] can view it as bad faith if you keep
asking me the same question and I've
[15:36] responded. So,
>> Okay.
[15:38] » I think it's pretty clear.
>> All right.
[15:39] » It is.
>> Yeah. Okay.
[15:41] I've just had a repetitive
experience.
[15:47] So.
>> This is My one thought on on uh
[15:51] Commissioner Kelle's
uh suggestions,
[15:55] um I like, you know, there's no downside
to putting in a non-discriminatory for
[16:00] whatever reasons the commission decides.
So, I can see that one. The one where
[16:05] we're putting in an ordinance
uh burden on the municipality to create
[16:09] a document explaining rights, I almost
feel like that gets the landlord off the
[16:15] hook if they
uh say we haven't kept up with what
[16:18] we're supposed to do. So, how the heck
with it, they're not giving the rights.
[16:22] I I do like the idea of putting it on
the website cuz it is it's more fluid
[16:26] and changes easier than uh putting in a
written document. But, whatever you get,
[16:31] you know, whatever everyone thinks. This
is my initial thoughts.
[16:34] » The cities that I found, um
they all worked with um
[16:40] either I think one of them worked with
Eastern Michigan University, the other
[16:44] one worked with a law firm, and they
created a document that could be updated
[16:50] that um quite a bit. They also have uh
like a renter's commission that looks at
[16:55] that. So, they have a reason to keep
updating it. Um
[16:59] but, that is a a good point that how we
do it could take a little bit of
[17:04] pressure off of the staff.
>> But, I think also
[17:08] I remember somewhere in my background
there are grants to to help get those
[17:13] tenant landlord booklets made and
university help, like you said, but also
[17:19] to the point of having a printed one, I
think the assumption is always that
[17:24] everyone can navigate
a website, and a lot of
[17:29] seniors and people with disabilities
don't go there. And if they have a paper
[17:34] booklet in hand, even if it becomes
obsolete quicker to your point, Rob, I
[17:39] think it's just helpful to have both.
>> Yeah, I mean, my only concern is how do
[17:44] you enforce?
Because if we put it as an ordinance
[17:48] that a landlord must give that, how do
you enforce that?
[17:52] » Mhm.
>> Right.
[17:54] » Is it a mandate or a suggestion?
>> Oh, no, it's a mandate.
[17:58] » Oh, you want us to do a mandate? Okay.
>> I mean, everything
[18:01] I have to look at the rest of the the
ordinance.
[18:04] » Yeah.
>> From what I remember, from what I saw,
[18:06] it all pointed to any violation in that
section was a misdemeanor, according to
[18:11] the
So.
[18:13] It was all tied to that. But I don't I
don't see a problem with
[18:18] this kind of information being available
digitally, and them having just a paper
[18:23] copy of
you know, here's how to get access this
[18:26] information, and some paper copies being
available at city hall.
[18:31] » And the bottom line is we also have like
I'm sorry, do some
[18:34] like we could do some press about once
we get it that all on the website, and
[18:39] doing it some article in the
Clementines, and doing some social media
[18:43] about it to, you know, just help promote
it so that and point people in that
[18:47] direction, so it's not just
>> There.
[18:49] » on the website, and if you're lucky you
might find it, you know.
[18:54] The Clementines makes sense.
>> Cuz all seniors usually do read the
[18:57] » Definitely does, yeah.
>> But um, you know, if we
[19:02] there's good landlords and there's bad
landlords, and the good landlords might
[19:05] try to keep up with it and make make
sure it gets out there. The bad
[19:09] landlord, you hope to God they
register. I mean
[19:14] there's several out there that
>> Sure.
[19:16] » I know I tore down the houses that
they weren't registered as
[19:21] » Right.
>> rentals.
[19:22] » Sure.
>> And the
[19:23] conditions were horrible.
So, it's it's really hard to keep track
[19:28] of all this stuff and hold landlords
accountable.
[19:32] Mhm. I forgot this.
>> I believe it was the previous
[19:35] Clementines with the one that just came
out. We do we did have an article about
[19:38] the rental registration inspection
program. So, um but I think we can take
[19:42] a look at the website to see, you know,
is the information where it is now kind
[19:46] of buried and can we make it more easily
accessible um from somebody going on our
[19:51] website and maybe even include some more
information about, you know, landlord
[19:55] tenant rights and things of that nature.
>> Yeah. Actually, um I forgot to mention
[20:00] that. It probably just didn't make its
way on here. They also
[20:04] um they
the way they got the city to engage in
[20:09] sending it out and winding the cities
was they added that the city would send
[20:13] a voter registration once they saw that,
you know, it came through that there was
[20:17] a new renter. So, there was a reason for
the city to interact with them and send
[20:21] them that information. So, that's how
they solved that. So, once again,
[20:25] not that we should do that. Um although
it would be cool. But,
[20:28] um
you know, they they they found a way to
[20:31] make sure that information got to them.
Um
[20:34] and then just one observation I found
when I said that our our ordinance was
[20:40] ahead of a lot of others. For instance,
us requiring that there's a responsible
[20:44] local agent if you have I think it was
if you have over five properties.
[20:48] Uh I didn't see that anywhere else. And
you know, I looked at four or five other
[20:53] cities. So,
things like that I'm really happy to see
[20:57] that we have that and
um we have worked to strengthen that a
[21:00] little bit.
>> Absolutely.
[21:01] » Yeah.
>> Well,
[21:04] » and Mel Commons is actually one of the
very first communities in Southeast
[21:07] Michigan to have a rental
registration inspection program. Our
[21:10] ordinance dates back to 1990.
>> Awesome.
[21:14] » It's awesome.
>> That's good. Yeah.
[21:16] » Yeah.
>> For you.
[21:18] » Yeah, for me.
[21:21] » Very good.
>> And then there you know, the enforcement
[21:24] of it varies
over the years, but
[21:26] » Mhm. So.
[21:29] » All right. So, anybody else have
anything to add?
[21:32] » This might go into This might go into
some detail, but I was listening to
[21:38] your comment. How does it get that bad
that a property is that is so bad
[21:45] um cuz we get a lot of those calls and
we end up sending them a letter to Legal
[21:49] Aid, but it gets it's really a bad
property to live in, but yet they were
[21:55] still paying rent.
When do we do these inspections and are
[21:59] they for every landlord in the city?
[22:04] » Yes, every unit's required to be
inspected every 2 years.
[22:07] » Okay.
So, what happens when you get a bad
[22:11] property and it's
it's not up to call. I mean, it's just
[22:15] really bad. Are they fined immediately?
What happened?
[22:18] » Well, no. We go to the administrative
hearings bureau when we do an inspection
[22:23] and corrections are not being made.
>> Okay.
[22:25] » Yes.
>> Okay.
[22:26] » And in that case as Commissioner Ford
you were saying they weren't registered.
[22:32] They weren't registered landlords. They
weren't being inspected because nobody
[22:35] even knew they were rentals and that is
a challenge. So, we do if you have a
[22:40] neighbor who you believe is renting out
your house their property or or you
[22:46] know, then we do encourage you to go to
the report a problem link and and put a
[22:51] tip in there. I mean, it's You can be
anonymous and um you know, report that
[22:57] and we can make sure it's registered.
>> And we do our best at we track property
[23:01] sales. We'll track on principal
residence exception, what people are
[23:04] applying for for the city to determine
well, if it's 0% homestead, then it's
[23:08] probably a rental, and then we'll send
out a you know, a request for rental
[23:11] registration and inspection. So, we are
trying to track some of that behind the
[23:14] scenes.
>> Awesome.
[23:17] The one problem that I kept going to the
AHC hearings
[23:22] is when the landlord
doesn't acknowledge and you know, you go
[23:28] month after month after month with no
response or no
[23:32] um
the the Italy diet comes to mind, you
[23:37] know, but that you got people living
there, there's clear violations, and yet
[23:42] the landlord just goes
just
[23:46] we can we can AHC him to the
all day long and it that I
[23:52] » Yeah, we need we need to make it hurt
them hurt them financially as much as
[23:55] possible for them to
take action. Absolutely.
[24:01] » And you have my full support for that as
well, especially when it's people who
[24:04] are not members of our community.
[24:08] All right. Anybody else? Cuz we are
about 5 minutes before our next meeting.
[24:13] » So, just to summarize, I'm going to make
the one comment that was suggested by
[24:18] Commissioner Brown, and then I'm going
to wait to see
[24:22] whether we're incorporating anything
from Commissioner Calhoun.
[24:26] Sounds good.
>> Okay, got it.
[24:28] » But and I would encourage everyone to
not I would say let's put a time
[24:32] time frame on you're going to send it
out soon, right? And then
[24:37] yeah, if you send it out soon and then
we give it a week and give comments back
[24:41] to Greg if you're interested in
wanting some of those
[24:47] you know, incorporated in our rental
agreement so we can get them to Rob and
[24:50] we can make that happen.
All right.
[24:53] All right, thank you. And is there any
other city business that we want to
[24:58] attend to in the next 4 minutes?
>> You want to talk about the four minutes?
[25:05] » Okay.
[25:09] Okay, excellent.
[25:20] Thank you.
[25:30] Thank you.
[25:34] » So speaking of administrative hearings
bureau, there's going to be a series of
[25:37] amendments coming down the pipeline,
ordinance amendments, as you can see in
[25:40] this timeline I put together, but this
is also that we can enforce
[25:45] certain sections of the zoning ordinance
through our administrative hearings
[25:48] bureau. Uh the sections that I've
identified here, they're related to
[25:51] blight and and property maintenance and
things of that nature as opposed to more
[25:55] of a land use type issue issues, which
should continue to be handled through
[25:58] uh district or circuit court. Um so I
have one
[26:02] one way we're going to be amending the
AHB and the blight ordinance so that we
[26:06] can do these enforcements, but then the
planning commission also needs to
[26:09] initiate zoning ordinance amendments um
at the same time or simultaneously,
[26:14] which will ultimately come to the the
city commission for approval as well. So
[26:17] I just wanted to get this in front of
you. So there's going to be pretty much
[26:20] an ordinance amendment every meeting for
the next several.
[26:24] » Okay.
>> Any questions that come, you know, shoot
[26:26] them over to Greg and we can get those
answered. So
[26:29] » Awesome.
So these are
[26:31] Where do we find them? Online? Is
>> The The sections here that I've
[26:35] outlined, um you can find them. They're
in the They're in the zoning ordinance.
[26:39] » But
[26:42] » But they're they're existing sections.
>> to change?
[26:45] » Just the abilities that we can enforce
these sections through the
[26:49] The ability to enforce them through the
administrative hearings bureau as
[26:52] opposed to district court, etc.
>> So, we're just adding 8.6 878893949928
[26:59] Is that it? Okay. Okay.
Awesome.
[27:05] Awesome. Okay. Thank you for this. This
is helpful. Yes, this is helpful.
[27:11] Okay. Now, does anyone else have any
Got anything? Got anything?
[27:17] Uh all right. So, Commissioner
Commissioner Conant, do you have any
[27:20] Commissioner comments for the work
session? All right, hearing none, we
[27:24] will move on to I will entertain a
motion to adjourn the work session.
[27:28] » Move to adjourn the work session.
>> Second the motion.
[27:30] » All those in favor?
>> Aye.
[27:32] » Any opposed? All right, the ayes have
it.