1 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:29,320 Welcome, and thank you for attending the August 13th, 2026 Planning Commission meeting. We are calling our meeting to order if I could ask for roll call please. 2 00:00:31,540 --> 00:00:33,280 Commissioner Willet-La Roy, 3 00:00:35,350 --> 00:00:36,010 Gatsen. 4 00:00:36,410 --> 00:00:36,470 Here. 5 00:00:37,390 --> 00:00:47,510 Taylor Garza, President, Cypher, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, 6 00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:50,210 Blake, here in the Senate. 7 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,560 Hi, I'm going to make a motion to approve minutes for working, I get a motion to approve 8 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,980 minutes for July 23rd, 20, our regular meeting on July 16th, 16th, 26th, and the special 9 00:01:06,980 --> 00:01:09,160 meeting on July 23rd, 20th, 26th. 10 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,120 So second. 11 00:01:16,190 --> 00:01:17,370 All in favour? 12 00:01:17,770 --> 00:01:18,230 All in favour? 13 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,320 We are going to move one to public hearing. 14 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:31,160 Hearing case 202616, request to amend the Plan Unit Development at Harvard to Narrow 15 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:45,260 Condemniam Association, Partial 6124425, 000000 to reduce the amount of sidewalk to be 16 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:51,920 I'm going to defer to Commissioner Mosaic for comment. 17 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:55,860 I live in Halbert Island. 19 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,360 I want to disclose that. 20 00:01:58,780 --> 00:02:03,320 The city attorney has previously defined that I do not have a conflict of interest, 21 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:04,840 relative to this issue. 22 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,120 But nevertheless, I intend to abstain from voting on this matter. 23 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:10,300 Thank you. 24 00:02:10,420 --> 00:02:11,260 Thank you. 25 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:16,000 Can we get staff to report out on this public meeting? 26 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:19,240 Yes. We'll also need to approve the minutes, but we can do that. 27 00:02:19,380 --> 00:02:20,420 You're just, I'm sorry. 28 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:21,060 Yes. 29 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:21,920 We're going through this stuff. 30 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:22,720 Yes, I'm sorry. 31 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:26,540 You're going to get a publication. 32 00:02:28,140 --> 00:02:30,580 This may be for funding manager. 33 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,980 Given that it's not a technical, conflict, interest, and it's a discretionary 34 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:42,420 abstinence of staining from the process that is not triggered then the requirement that it be uniform 35 00:02:44,980 --> 00:02:50,340 of the remaining members who's want to confirm this the case not at the planning commission level 36 00:02:50,340 --> 00:02:55,160 This is just a referral to the this is just recommendation. Yeah, so and that 37 00:02:55,780 --> 00:02:59,480 This will be a question really becomes within the mind at the city commission level. I'm curious about that 38 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:05,660 If someone's discretionary that's staying you shouldn't trigger the requirement that it's unanimous by the remaining members 39 00:03:07,380 --> 00:03:12,220 And if I'm a manager and then just for another clarification, no matter how the vote goes tonight, 40 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,280 this does get referred to the city commission. So whether it's an affirmative vote or like a group of denying the application, 41 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:21,820 it still goes to the city commission. So just want to make sure that's clear. 42 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:23,800 So. 43 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:24,560 One of that. 44 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:27,960 Okay. If we can have staff report out please. 45 00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:28,440 Sure. 46 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:30,480 So in August, 2024, 47 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,940 a harbottom kind of any misociation applied to amend the planning and development to allow 48 00:03:35,940 --> 00:03:42,740 an additional 10 buildings which would include 28 new units total on vacant lots that are 49 00:03:42,740 --> 00:03:48,460 located on the west side of the development. The amendment was approved with the following conditions. 50 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:55,500 A turnaround must be incorporated at the end of channel view points. An additional fire hydrant must 51 00:03:55,500 --> 00:04:00,980 be at a long channel view point. We have since worked with the fire marshal and determined 52 00:04:00,980 --> 00:04:05,820 that is not actually necessary. The storm water premise must be obtained from the engineering 53 00:04:05,820 --> 00:04:10,960 department before construction commences, which is standard. Landscaping plan is provided. 54 00:04:11,380 --> 00:04:16,660 They plan on doing that when the individual homes are applied for. That's fairly standard 55 00:04:16,660 --> 00:04:22,640 as well. And number five was that the sidewalks through harbour town circle. East and West 56 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,100 are installed within two years 57 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:25,620 from the commencement of construction. 58 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:28,500 Harvard Town, Condominious Association, 59 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,640 has been unable to find a way to finance the installation 60 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240 of the new sidewalks throughout the entire development. 61 00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:36,440 So they are now proposing a scaled-back version 62 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,740 of the sidewalk connection, which would include 63 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:41,080 a new sidewalk from full-and-street entrance 64 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,320 to the Indian-estreet entrance as depicted on the map. 65 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:45,820 That's included in the packet. 66 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:57,180 The engineering department reviewed the plans and had some comments about the sidewalk proposal. 67 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:05,660 They suggested that a crosswalk will need to be incorporated at Indiana Street, including accessible ramps. 68 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,200 The existing sidewalk on Indiana Street that this will connect to is on the south side. 69 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,600 So there will be need to be a connection from the north side that leads to the sidewalk on the south side. 70 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:24,000 While the city is engineering group or consultant, whatever ends up designing this will be able to make the highlighted route work. 71 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:30,800 Several of the driveways on the east side of harbour town west harbour town circle will get quite a bit of steeper near the roadway. 72 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:40,520 He noted that some residents may be unhappy with the results as the steepness of the driveways may cause bottoming out or a lumpy ride. 73 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,740 He was able to provide a sketch that I have handed out to everybody. 74 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:52,700 We should have in front of you about how that would look and why the increase of steepness to the driveway would happen. 75 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,720 Also noted that grading easements will be needed outside of the existing right away, particularly along the east side of the street. 76 00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:04,180 If not obtainable, retaining walls may be necessary, driving up costs. 77 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:08,960 grading easements for the driveways will be absolutely required and are necessary for 78 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,660 project as proposed and improve sidewalk ramps. Require and grading easements and 79 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:20,400 possibly requiring permanent easements will be needed at the full-and-street entrance 80 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,100 to make this sidewalks ADA compliant which is a requirement for public sidewalks when 81 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:26,440 upgraded and 82 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,160 we also have a recommended motion below which includes those comments. 83 00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:41,270 Thank you. 84 00:06:41,690 --> 00:06:43,770 If the applicant is available, you have 85 00:06:43,770 --> 00:06:46,150 opportunity to come out if you like. 86 00:06:47,410 --> 00:06:50,410 Actually, actually, before we do that, I do have a question for staff. 87 00:06:52,750 --> 00:06:52,870 Okay. 88 00:06:54,570 --> 00:06:56,920 So the. 89 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:58,220 The sidewalk concerns. 90 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,400 That engineering brought up about. 91 00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:03,320 The the mumping or so whatever in the. 92 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,820 Approval that we previously did, it was for. 93 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:07,300 Was sidewalks to be on both sides. 94 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,940 Or was it to be on one side or the other? 95 00:07:09,940 --> 00:07:22,020 It was to be on one side or the other, but we hadn't actually picked out the route yet and we did note that it could cross the screen a couple of times to maybe try to avoid situations like this or other situations that would arise. 96 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,740 So with or without making any changes there would so potentially be the same challenge. 97 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:29,300 Correct. 98 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:39,120 Yeah, if you keep it on one side, I believe you're going to run into some steepness challenges, whether or not you're crossing over back and forth. 99 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,500 There is potentially going to be some issues before this. 100 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:44,360 Thank you. 101 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:45,640 Thank you, Manager. 102 00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:49,940 Anyone else? 103 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,060 On the dial. 104 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,880 I have anything else to say before we bring up 105 00:07:57,570 --> 00:07:58,250 the applicant. 106 00:08:01,340 --> 00:08:02,600 Is the applicant here? 107 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,840 Well, you please be so kind and state your name and address. 108 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,460 Good afternoon. 109 00:08:10,220 --> 00:08:13,180 My name is Mark Schultz and I'm here representing the Harvard Tellen 110 00:08:13,180 --> 00:08:14,100 Condo Association. 111 00:08:15,260 --> 00:08:20,760 Many of my comments would be repetitive of what Director 112 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Fransic just said. 113 00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:25,540 I do want to add with regard to the engineering drawings. 114 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,880 We would intend to hire a civil engineer to detail all of the 115 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:38,000 during requirements meet the city codes and ADA codes so that we don't do anything wrong in this situation. 116 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:48,080 Again, many of my comments have already been heard by Director Fransik so we'll be able to answer any questions that you may have. 117 00:08:51,170 --> 00:08:54,610 Anyone have any questions for our applicant? 118 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,740 If you have anything else to say, you can feel free to answer it. 119 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:06,400 Thank you. 120 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:07,040 Thank you. 121 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:13,520 welcome. Now we're going to open up for public comment. If anyone is out there in the crowd, 122 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,320 that would like to have something to say, please come up to the podium and state your name 123 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,200 in your address. 124 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:23,140 Yes, ma'am. 125 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,500 Arbor Azulaf, I live at 3440 Pitch and Hill Court. 126 00:09:31,980 --> 00:09:38,320 The financial aspect of this project is that to be born by harbour founders, the city going to 127 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,680 provide the paving and then the maintenance. 128 00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:45,370 I should press that for a developer. 129 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:48,490 Usually not question in the answer time. 130 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:50,390 Yeah, it's a public area. 131 00:09:50,530 --> 00:09:52,090 We're interested in the question they received. 132 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,980 We have anyone else that would like to speak. 133 00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:59,840 Good evening or afternoon. 134 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:00,840 My name is James Fox. 135 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,580 I don't live in the association, but I'm on the back side 136 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:04,620 of an analysis street. 137 00:10:05,420 --> 00:10:07,120 And I'll be affected a little bit. 138 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:08,600 My home sits up a little bit higher. 139 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,280 But we have what I consider a pretty good doing area behind our home. 140 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,060 and nobody there today and one of the buildings is going to be placed behind that 141 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:22,300 and I'm just curious how that will react with the doom and the grass lands and the woods 142 00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:23,680 behind our own. 143 00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:25,840 Thank you. 144 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:28,040 We have anyone else in audience? 145 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,300 My name is Kim Privy, I live at 1473 West Cargertown. 146 00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:45,880 I'm not familiar with all the rules of overtime, but I know that within our rules uniform 147 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,940 is one of the things that we stress. 148 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:51,920 For instance, if I wanted shutters on my building, 149 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:53,620 I can't give shutters because everybody 150 00:10:53,620 --> 00:10:54,080 have to. 151 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:56,200 If I wanted to paint my garage door, 152 00:10:56,260 --> 00:10:58,860 I can't do that because everybody would have to. 153 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,880 This sidewalk that's proposed right now 154 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:07,880 is starting basically at Indiana Coins North to Folgan. 155 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,420 I have friends and other people that live on East Harbour 156 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:14,980 Town Circle that presently walk for exercise, 157 00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:21,480 walk to go to Bowdocks, walk to go to the lake. They're walking on the street. They don't have a sidewalk. 158 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:28,100 My vision is, if we have to have a sidewalk and we have uniformity rules and herpertone, 159 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:33,760 and a sidewalk should be provided with everybody. These people are walking in the street. They have no choice. 160 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:39,300 I talked to some of these people and we also have a slight concern and nothing against the 161 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:45,880 docs, but we believe that the docs proposal as like emergency entrance or something 162 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:52,080 from their property to our property, but a lot of residents to go to Botox, to go to the 163 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,780 lake, may use that exit to walk in the harbour town, likewise, they will be walking on 164 00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:04,660 hypertoncircle in the row, to the original sidewalk. So I feel that it's uniformity, 165 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:10,980 excuse me, has to be done, with a sidewalk for the whole property. The other thing I'm 166 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:18,600 concerned with with the proposals right now, I drive beach-free, I drive the ovals. I drive up to 167 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:25,180 these pedestrian walkway signs. I'm diligent and make sure there's no residents, but I've also 168 00:12:25,180 --> 00:12:33,440 walk til throats, and many times there are vehicles that don't buy by those signs. 169 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,420 They just drive right through, even though they're supposed to stop from me. 170 00:12:38,060 --> 00:12:45,080 This new sidewalk proposal that we have starts on the west side of the street, from Indiana, 171 00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:49,920 to the proposed first unit that's going to be built. 172 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:57,020 And then I'm assuming it's going to be a crosswalk that goes across West Harbour Town and I'm 173 00:12:57,020 --> 00:13:01,600 guessing again that the other thing that you're going to be able to do is to put a pedestrian 174 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:09,720 walkway sign there because there's no stop lights and that means it's a problem because 175 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,280 of what I encounter every day by the beach. 176 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:20,200 Our Paton every month, our newsletter is talking about, note, it's 25 mile an hour speed limit. 177 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:27,460 Don't speed. We're not going to have potentially 28 more vehicles. If you do one per unit, 178 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:34,600 56 of you go for two driving through there. Come on to bow to Oxford and order their residents. 179 00:13:35,460 --> 00:13:39,060 We've been concerned about speed. Now we got more traffic going through there. 180 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:44,500 I just don't see that one that plan is already out there is feasibly because of that. 181 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,740 If we're going to have a sidewalk, make it from Indiana. 182 00:13:49,740 --> 00:13:52,020 I don't know how you would do it, but make it from Indiana. 183 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:54,840 Across to the west side. 184 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,840 So just one crosswalk. 185 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,140 A side to foot from Indiana to foot. 186 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:07,420 As we eliminate this, walk in the middle of the road with pedestrian walkway signs. 187 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,780 That is going to, you know, to me, that is a danger, because I, I sort of lived pretty 188 00:14:13,780 --> 00:14:18,420 near where that crosswalk is going to be, and I'm watching cars go by every day. 189 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,720 There is no 25 mountain horse to be there. 190 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:25,500 I'm watching people that are walking, they don't, they don't heed those cars. 191 00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:30,700 I've also talked to people that lived on the East side, or East Harbor Town Circle, that 192 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:35,940 when they walk, they've told me, when they come to Indiana, they're not going to walk 193 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:39,440 across to the west side of the street to get on to your sidewalk. 194 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 They're just going to keep right on walkin', 195 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,820 which means they're going to walk to that first unit 196 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:48,720 that's being constructed until the sidewalk starts. 197 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:51,700 So that has a limited part of the traffic. 198 00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:52,980 I think I'm going to hear me walking. 199 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:54,500 That's my point. 200 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Thank you for your comments. 201 00:14:56,820 --> 00:14:59,660 If we have anyone else in the audience that wishes to speak right now, 202 00:14:59,660 --> 00:14:59,960 You're going to... 203 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,700 I should have said this before, handsop, apologize. To keep your comments limited to three minutes. 204 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,580 Glenquist, I have a 1639 West Habitat on Circle. 205 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:19,660 But there, in the complex and and on a private house, for the last 15 years, walked three times a day through the neighborhood, 206 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,560 and they had not a need for an sidewalk ever. 207 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:30,900 So, look, concern about previous plan where it said all the way through the development goes through my yard. 208 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:37,300 I don't benefit from that financially or because it don't walk there anyway. 209 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,500 So I'm not sure that we've put the issue to bad with regard to through the complex, 210 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,780 but I'd like to see that we have sure that it's not going to happen. 211 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,240 Thank you. 212 00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:49,420 Thank you. 213 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,180 Do we have anyone else in our audience that wishes to speak? 214 00:15:55,060 --> 00:16:09,220 If not, we're going to move to the phone lines. You can call in at 2 3 1 7 2 4 6 7 2 1. Again, open up the phone lines. Call in at 2 3 1 7 2 4 6 7 2 1. 215 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,160 I'm going to give that just a few more seconds here. 216 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,720 It's not even done to you yet. 217 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,040 Oh, forget us the delay. 218 00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:37,620 You're just now announcing it. 219 00:16:56,950 --> 00:16:57,930 No calls yet. 220 00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:04,010 So we have no cause, I am going to move that we close the public hearing. 221 00:17:11,930 --> 00:17:13,390 Yeah, I got it. 222 00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:17,010 You want the whole thing or just go over here, I know. 223 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,660 I moved to close the public hearing. 224 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:22,500 Second. 225 00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:25,690 We're close. 226 00:17:25,870 --> 00:17:29,970 That public hearing, if we have anyone that would has, by the words. 227 00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:31,890 Oh, I'm going to move. 228 00:17:32,010 --> 00:17:33,090 Yeah, go to the public hearing. 229 00:17:34,510 --> 00:17:36,230 We need, can we vote one? 230 00:17:36,370 --> 00:17:37,870 The calls in the public hearing, please. 231 00:17:41,030 --> 00:17:42,870 All in favour? 232 00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:43,410 Aye. 233 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:44,890 All opposed? 234 00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:50,050 The occult in the public hearing case 20 2016. 235 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:52,150 2026-16. 236 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:56,770 Do we have any comments from Commissioner? 237 00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:57,790 One more comment. 238 00:17:58,070 --> 00:18:02,350 We did receive two emails that I've placed in front of everybody. 239 00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:04,830 You may want to take a minute or two to read those. 240 00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:06,450 Both of them will lose. 241 00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:11,510 being residents in harbour town that would like sidewalk throughout the 242 00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:11,890 development. 243 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:22,700 I'm sorry, one of them is not in harbour town. They are in Nelson. 244 00:18:36,980 --> 00:18:41,240 Nelson Street or Nelson Street. Nelson Street. Nelson Street. The the longer one that 245 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,700 resident Charlotte is from the Nelson neighborhood. 246 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:51,500 Has everyone had 247 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:53,780 opportunities to read both emails? 248 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:55,120 Yes. 249 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:58,580 Commissioner. 250 00:19:00,620 --> 00:19:02,320 Or do we need a little time? 251 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:03,360 Anywhere? 252 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:04,500 Yes. 253 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:52,570 Give just a few more seconds for commissioners to finish reading those emails. 254 00:19:54,590 --> 00:20:00,770 Then open up for any comments questions concerns that commissioners may have. 255 00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:15,720 There are any commissioners that have any comments concerns. 256 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:25,260 questions please feel free to yes I'm before determining what motion to make 257 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,980 we permit the applicant to come back with voting for questions yes I 258 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:37,980 applicant Mr. Schult would you please come back to the podium thank you 259 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:46,480 good afternoon Mr. Schult hi could you give us some background history in 260 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,540 in terms of, what is transpired since the Commission took action in, towards the end of 261 00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:59,100 2024, with transpired with the housing association, in both you've taken as an organization, 262 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,100 discussions, examinations of costs and the, like, you could just kind of bring us up to speed 263 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,020 as to what is transpired on your end since then. 264 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,900 We did have a vote of the co-owners, and that was concluded on April 11th, 2025. 265 00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:13,520 that vote was not successful. 266 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:20,680 There were 96, yes, 69, no, and 30 people did not submit a ballot. 267 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,920 And that equals 190 co-owners. 268 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,300 And by the bylaws of Harvard Town and Canada Association, 269 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,300 the ballots that were not returned are considered a no vote. 270 00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:38,480 So basically, the motion to proceed with the PUD failed. 271 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:49,480 We think that mainly the no voters were opposed, well, we did not have a lot of information 272 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,040 about the sidewalks at that time. 273 00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:56,100 During that time period of the vote, we had already sent out the ballots. 274 00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,320 The city gave us an estimate of $400,000 for the sidewalk. 275 00:22:01,020 --> 00:22:07,380 And then the county assessor came along and said that she would only assess the people 276 00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:10,160 where the sidewalk abutted in front of their units. 277 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,560 If you happen to live across the street from that particular unit, 278 00:22:14,180 --> 00:22:18,040 you would not get taxed, but the people that abutted the sidewalk, 279 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,780 they would bear the tax burden. 280 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,300 That tax burden would fall on maybe 50 to 55 of our coal owners 281 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:29,820 as compared to spreading the cost of the project to all coal owners. 282 00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:34,800 This is actually in conflict with the state of Michigan condolences 283 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:42,920 in regards to that this sidewalk would be placed on a common element of the condo association in the State of Michigan Condo 284 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:53,020 Log indicates that any improvement on a common element is shared by all condo owners not only the one set of buck this. 285 00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:58,800 In addition, the county assessor also said, and I have to back up here as I'm sorry. 286 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,120 The sidewalk, if we go all the way on East and West 287 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,340 Harbour Town Circle, there are plots of land that do not belong to 288 00:23:06,340 --> 00:23:06,820 Harbour Town. 289 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,200 There are other privately owned, some owned by the Sandocks, 290 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,140 some others are owned by individuals. 291 00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:17,040 The county assessor said, on those particular parcels 292 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,240 that are owned by the Sandocks and the other private individuals, 293 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:25,820 adding a sidewalk would not improve the value of their property. 294 00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:32,380 And so those people would not share in the cost of this sidewalk going through all of East and West 295 00:23:32,380 --> 00:23:33,040 Tableton. 296 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:41,480 So that, there again, we never did go back to the coloners because we knew that if we said, 297 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:48,760 hey, we have a section of the sidewalk, which would have been about 10% of the sidewalk, that we 298 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,680 would have to pay rather than the owners of the property. 299 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,260 So we did not proceed down that road. 300 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,280 We did have some conversations. 301 00:23:59,140 --> 00:24:03,120 And we talked with the mayor and the city managers 302 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:04,360 see forth. 303 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,920 And in December, we said, could we consider 304 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,480 this shortened version of the sidewalk? 305 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,700 We have talked to our developer, 306 00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:16,640 who is Mike Boschcraft, a bosscraft home in Holland. 307 00:24:17,340 --> 00:24:19,380 He is willing to front the money for the sidewalk. 308 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:27,600 and then deduct that money from the proceeds that the condo association would receive from the building of the 28 units. 309 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:34,680 So we have the funding element in place, and so now we're just looking for the city to approve the short and sidewalk version. 310 00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:42,600 If in fact the city goes back and says, sorry, we need to have sidewalks in the whole condo, 311 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,800 social, both East and West, however, tone. 312 00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:46,280 This proposal will die. 313 00:24:46,740 --> 00:24:48,460 We will not construct the 28 units. 314 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:49,960 It's, it's that simple. 315 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,540 So Mr. Schultz, the vote that happened in April of 2025, 316 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,240 that was after hearing from the county session's office 317 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,840 so it informed that it were not comfortable assessing 318 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:07,280 every property of the kind of association in Hamilton. 319 00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:11,180 Did, was the county session aware of the law 320 00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:14,600 you referenced the regulating condos associations and that. 321 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:15,540 Yes, the ultimate element. 322 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:22,600 Yes, the R attorney of an Alexander of make-aware and several names, they're located 323 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:29,880 in Permanent and Hills, and actually they're from helped write the condo law for the state 324 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:30,300 of Michigan. 325 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:38,120 So yes, R attorney reached out to the county assessor and said, by the way, you're in conflict 326 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:43,820 with the state of Michigan Condol law, but the county of Sussur decided to go over 327 00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:47,020 our own way and said, sorry, this is my ruling. 328 00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:49,480 So the Sussur was not persuaded. 329 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:51,440 No, that was that law. 330 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,320 It's not persuaded. 331 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,460 There were, and you mentioned meeting with the mayor myself in the city manager, and 332 00:25:57,460 --> 00:26:00,680 you've had many conversations with our DBW director as well. 333 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:04,960 One of the meetings, one of the earlier meetings, not the one in December of last year, 334 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:11,760 But one of the earlier meetings, there was conversation around trying to work out a development 335 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,920 agreement with the city where the city would front the money and then assess individually. 336 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,140 But it would be a contractual agreement with the condos association. 337 00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:24,740 It would not be a formal assessment of every property owner. 338 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,100 So it would be up to you all to work out how you're paying that back. 339 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,700 Was there any discussion amongst you and your residents around going that route potentially? 340 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,220 And I'm raising this because after our meeting in December of last year, you know, it was 341 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:41,360 comfortable with this modification. 342 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:46,960 I was the one that originally advocated for sidewalks for the continuous sidewalk throughout 343 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,500 Harbour Town, East and West of Harbour Circle. 344 00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:56,060 But hearing the issues and the flights and the struggles with being able to make the happen 345 00:26:56,060 --> 00:27:01,560 and also the fact that my original advocacy was predicated on the belief and the understanding 346 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:08,820 that the original P.D. had for Harvard Town had required a sidewalk, but it was never implemented 347 00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:14,880 in North enforcement happened. And so that's why I was so such an advocate of, okay, now 348 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,420 it's before me, I'm not going to pass this up. We're going to follow us through and get 349 00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:23,000 a sidewalk in there. I understand. Come to light. Since then, there can be no one can 350 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,260 find any actual records or documentation of the original P.D. requiring that sidewalk. 351 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:31,200 And 352 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,660 So, for a moment, I still personally prefer, you know, a sidewalk going with the length 353 00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:40,560 of that for a number of different reasons, you know, complete streets and coordinates, part 354 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,500 of our city policy, but was understanding and willing to be flexible, but I'm hearing some 355 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:49,600 of the folks that have come tonight as well as some emails that are focusing your community 356 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,280 that do want the sidewalk throughout the entirety of that street. 357 00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:58,960 So I'm just trying to understand what conversation has been happening and you're in with your 358 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:07,380 numbers and if what has been explored and if because it sounds like that vote, it 359 00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:13,200 will be counted the 30 apps of staining as know, even that, that's pretty close. 360 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:19,840 96, yes, 99, we would have needed two thirds vote, which is like 127, yeses, okay, you 361 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:26,400 need two thirds, got it. We were about 30 short. And that was based on the belief that only 362 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,380 some properties could be assessed, not all properties. 363 00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:30,740 It's not going to understand why people might vote no on that, you know, 364 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:31,820 than here unfairness. 365 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,340 And even some of those 60 no voters, we think we don't know for sure, 366 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,480 but in conversations after the fact, we found that they voted no 367 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,280 because of the ambiguity of the sidewalk cost and who was going to pay for it 368 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,340 or what the route was and how it was going to be funded. 369 00:28:51,340 --> 00:28:58,420 Relative of the question that you raised about if the city contracted with Habitown Condo 370 00:28:58,420 --> 00:29:06,980 Association and then the Association said, okay, 190 co-owners, you're going to get 371 00:29:06,980 --> 00:29:11,580 to assess you X amount per year for the 10 years or 15 years at home over that agreement 372 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:12,360 with Workout. 373 00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:20,120 We thought about that, but this situation with the Sandox owning part of the property and some 374 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,180 individual co-owners where the burden would be all on harbour town for that approximately 375 00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:31,860 10% of the linear feet of the sidewalk, which might be 500 feet or so in that 376 00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:37,780 vicinity. Again, we thought, well, co-owners are not going to be willing to pay for the 377 00:29:37,780 --> 00:29:43,700 sidewalk on property that does not belong to us. And when the county assessor took 378 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:55,260 first stance that, you know, it was all on a harbour tone, and particularly all on just the co-owners set about at the sidewalk, again, that kind of blew this whole thing out of the water. 379 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,060 Pardon my expression. 380 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,560 I appreciate that additional insight and background. One more one more question to understand your process and I guess you're by-laws perhaps. 381 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:23,040 What did it require for you as the to petition for amendment to PUD, with just a vote of your board? Did it have to go to the every property owner to say yes we support pursuing the PUD amendment? 382 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:30,040 Yeah, if the planning commission approves this and goes under the city commission and then the second reading of the city commission 383 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,580 And then we would have an approval for this short and version of the sidewalk 384 00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:43,860 Then yes, we would have we would go back to our developer because we have some other issues with him mainly on the exterior look of the proposed buildings 385 00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:49,700 And he's indicated he's willing to make the buildings look exactly like harbour town is today 386 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:56,460 He what he did is supplied as some of his stock photos of prior work that he had done and he's 387 00:30:57,380 --> 00:30:59,400 This was a third-generation contractor 388 00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:07,520 He's built several condo communities up and down West Michigan West Michigan shoreline. So he's very 389 00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:10,240 credible in this area 390 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:18,720 So he said, yes, I can build these buildings with my foot print, but put a harbour town look on him and all he did was give a stock photos of his 391 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:25,020 prior buildings and not have his CAD people do their work to make it look like carbotons. 392 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:34,080 So we intend to go back to him and get some revised drawings, not drawings and think of 393 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:41,220 the right word, the correct view of carbotone, so that we can then proceed on with a second 394 00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:47,880 boat to our co-owners and say, now we have the sidewalks defined, we have the funding defined, 395 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:54,920 We've got the exterior look of the buildings defined, and we believe now that we have a project that we can go forward with. 396 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:56,840 Thank you. 397 00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:57,480 Appreciate it. 398 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:58,420 Thank you Mr. Mayor. 399 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,200 Any other questions? 400 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,440 I do. 401 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:03,360 Two. 402 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:10,360 So if the sidewalk will, if we don't vote for sidewalk. 403 00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:10,860 That's correct. 404 00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:13,840 If you don't plan on going through with the development. 405 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:14,800 That's correct. 406 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:21,700 It's financially not in our interest to do it if we don't get the shortened version. 407 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:22,020 Okay. 408 00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:27,040 And again, just so I have a, it's wrapped around my head. 409 00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:31,840 Even the individuals who are part of the HOA that will not have the sidewalk, 410 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,300 they still will have to pay for the sidewalk. 411 00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:36,980 That's correct. 412 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,440 Okay. Thank you. 413 00:32:38,580 --> 00:32:42,440 It's an equally shared deal according to the state law of Michigan, the state condo law. 414 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:48,620 we can not do an improvement to a common element and only assess certain co-owners. 415 00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:55,240 It's one or all. It's all, basically. We cannot say, well, these 10 over here have to pay, 416 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,810 and these 10 over here don't have to, it doesn't work that way. That's the state law. 417 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:01,900 Yes. 418 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:10,000 Michelle, should this pass and eventually you prevail at both this level and from the electives? 419 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:21,740 would you continue to have the conversation about what is potentially possible as far 420 00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:27,760 as sidewalks through the entire development as part of a different conversation? 421 00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:31,000 We would be willing to have that conversation. 422 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:37,100 It would be difficult to fund it because of the way that the county assessor has stated 423 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:37,840 her position. 424 00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:46,180 So that, unless the city absolutely says you have to have sidewalks on this portion that 425 00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:51,100 we're not talking about today, it would have to be a city tax basically. 426 00:33:55,380 --> 00:34:04,480 Yeah, so that the option that we put out there as Mr. Schultz was talking about was essentially 427 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:10,080 the city would pay for the sidewalks to go in and then there would be a contract with the 428 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:19,740 and then they would have the dues associated with that and the HOA itself would be responsible for paying us back over probably a ten-year period. 429 00:34:21,660 --> 00:34:28,740 So, and that's just to be consistent with city ordinances when sidewalks go in are replaced in front of a home. 430 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:34,480 It's the responsibility of the homeowner unless there's some exciting circumstances, which there's a couple of situations. 431 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,440 So, 432 00:34:38,220 --> 00:34:44,480 that's that was sort of the agreement that we were trying to lay out that would have gotten around the concerns from the county assessor. 433 00:34:46,180 --> 00:34:54,680 And she and I did have a conversation when she initially came through with her position on it and it's been well over years since that conversation. 434 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:02,400 I don't remember the details of it, but essentially there were some state court rulings that she was looking at 435 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,580 that she felt didn't give her the authority even taking into consideration the condo law 436 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:13,420 and that that's why she wasn't comfortable rolling an assessment across all the properties, 437 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:19,660 which is another way that we pay for those sidewalks as well. And again, in that case, the city 438 00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:24,360 would still be paying the upfront cost and then we'd be recouping them through the special assessment over time. 439 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:31,480 So the contract option was essentially a similar option just with a contract with the HOA as opposed 440 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,360 to, on the individual properties. 441 00:35:41,610 --> 00:35:44,690 I, you know, of a mind to vote, 442 00:35:44,810 --> 00:35:48,430 guess, on this particular option. 443 00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:52,630 And one reason, that one of the big reasons is, 444 00:35:55,790 --> 00:35:57,710 I think it'd be Shane and Miss Out on, 445 00:35:57,710 --> 00:36:00,670 you know, additional housing within the city. 446 00:36:00,670 --> 00:36:01,410 Secondly, 447 00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:06,550 I've given this situation, 448 00:36:09,830 --> 00:36:16,390 I would hate to put an impediment in, you know, front of the ownership 449 00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:24,630 for use of their property. Now, through almost 40 years of not 40 years, we have a situation 450 00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:33,010 here that if indeed there is a deficiency meaning the sidewalks won't put in. But the mayor 451 00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:43,990 even mentioned a hard time finding if that was ever really a requirement. Now we've gone through 452 00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:53,250 how many developers in the first developer with Dick Anderson, John Dearing picks up 453 00:36:53,250 --> 00:37:03,070 the project. And then, you know, now, now we have, you know, ownership in the form of 454 00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:14,280 Okay, I knew it so she's right. How many, how many administrations or even times that the sidewalks came up, 455 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:25,830 you know, in front of the elected and basically it was pushed off. We've had 40 years 456 00:37:25,830 --> 00:37:39,090 of either inability or unwillingness to bring enforcement of some sort to force the sidewalks. 457 00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:47,870 but that was never done. The kind of the topic of the sidewalks had come up at least once 458 00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:58,250 back when I was still on the commission with you, Mr. Mayor, and it didn't go anywhere, you know, 459 00:37:58,250 --> 00:38:08,550 the discussion. So now we have the condo association with, you know, practical difficulties to 460 00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:19,250 circumstances that are unique to this property for the current ownership. This was not 461 00:38:19,250 --> 00:38:20,110 self-created. 462 00:38:23,330 --> 00:38:29,450 And you know how many current residents were residents at the time in the 463 00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:38,410 1980s when this even came up. Maybe 50%. Okay. And to your point about the transfer of ownership 464 00:38:38,410 --> 00:38:45,350 from Dick Anderson to John Darion. I believe I'm not sure on this, but we did find some 465 00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:54,650 records that in early 1990 or early 1990s there was a sidewalk boat and at that time 466 00:38:55,170 --> 00:39:02,370 John Darion still owned a greater than 50% of the parcels. So he had a boat of yes or no. And so 467 00:39:02,910 --> 00:39:08,190 obviously he voted the down because he had power over the empty parcels at that time. 468 00:39:08,410 --> 00:39:16,110 So, we think that's probably why that boat failed, is that he didn't want to put in the sidewalks at his expense. 469 00:39:17,350 --> 00:39:18,110 I'm guessing there. 470 00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:18,910 I'm not sure. 471 00:39:21,450 --> 00:39:27,890 Again, I'm going to vote in the affirmative, because I believe that this is a good option. 472 00:39:28,590 --> 00:39:29,190 Thank you. 473 00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:37,290 We'd hate to see the development of additional housing in the city of Michigan, 474 00:39:37,290 --> 00:39:45,890 stymied and also your ability as ownership to be denied, you know, the use of your own property. 475 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:57,620 One of the benefits there, and then, you know, somebody's got a nail down, you know, 476 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:04,260 just the deficiency actually exists. And, you know, if it does, then we do have 477 00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:11,320 legal bearing including you know court case to say build these different things or you 478 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:21,860 continue on you know as a body as a corporate body you know the residents and find some work 479 00:40:21,860 --> 00:40:34,040 around assessors and whatever else because there is a call for sidewalks by some of your 480 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,880 ownership, but I understand that and it's it's the funding element that is 481 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:46,380 it is and there was a question asked you know tonight who pays for this he better 482 00:40:46,380 --> 00:40:49,620 be clear on that one because it seems like you know some people aren't clear 483 00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:53,920 that and all the cities not going to come in and put inside walks they don't we 484 00:40:53,920 --> 00:41:04,020 wouldn't do that and any neighborhood you know the it's either going to be a 485 00:41:04,020 --> 00:41:09,060 neighborhood in this city. On the short and version of the sidewalk, the developers are going to 486 00:41:09,060 --> 00:41:14,140 pay the upfront cost and just deduct it from our proceeds. So that's why we have the funding 487 00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:20,260 element in place for the short and version. If we were faced with the extended version all the way 488 00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:24,180 from Pulton Street all the way to the end of East Harbor Town Circle, 489 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:34,000 we have a problem that we don't 490 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:42,500 because after 40 years of head scratching as to where the heck are the sidewalks who 491 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:49,420 pays for it and are you really required to, I'm not going to hold up the development of 492 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:57,100 additional housing in the city of Michigan or deny your corporate body, the residents 493 00:41:57,100 --> 00:42:01,900 there, an opportunity to use their own property. 494 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:03,420 Thank you, sir. 495 00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:07,340 One other point I'd want to make on the 28 additional units. 496 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,100 All of the infrastructure is already there. 497 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:12,820 The roads are there, the utilities are there. 498 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,380 The water insurers are there. 499 00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:17,060 We're not like the Sandacks. 500 00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,740 We're not like the Savvy property that have to still put in all of these infrastructure elements. 501 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:28,040 So if we do receive approval, and perhaps early 2027, 502 00:42:28,540 --> 00:42:30,820 we might be able to see something go up. 503 00:42:30,820 --> 00:42:40,460 But I'm not committing to that, but we have a lot of the infrastructure already there so that it's not a stumbling block. 504 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:46,400 And that would be nice to have additional people living there to actually pay the cost of maintaining that infrastructure. 505 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,160 Thank you. 506 00:42:50,530 --> 00:42:58,050 I was going to add a note that Head Conversations to DBW about how can we engineer, how can we do this the different ways. 507 00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:04,810 And one of your residents has to post can't you do something in the street itself instead of having a sidewalk. 508 00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:09,150 And so I did convert with their city manager and our DW director on that. 509 00:43:09,470 --> 00:43:16,250 Is there a way to have a marketed walking path out of the roadway that exists? 510 00:43:16,930 --> 00:43:20,050 And DW director did review that and it's not. 511 00:43:20,850 --> 00:43:26,430 He would not recommend that given the current with the roadway. 512 00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:29,090 That's the problem, is the road is just not widening. 513 00:43:29,330 --> 00:43:33,010 A little bit wider, then you're talking a little bit about each side. 514 00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:36,990 And basically then you would make Harper tell a circle of one lane road. 515 00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:40,730 Yeah. So if we're just a little bit wider, then it could have been able to accommodate both the 516 00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:45,470 two-way traffic and separate. We would have loved to have that. 517 00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:48,330 Which is unfortunate, because I would have been the cheapest option. 518 00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:54,490 So really, by far, and make everyone happy, most everyone's having, you're not going to get universal happiness. 519 00:43:54,490 --> 00:43:59,430 You work for a fire. We make a long ways towards making everyone happy. 520 00:44:01,650 --> 00:44:02,690 Mr. Rindig. 521 00:44:04,210 --> 00:44:10,750 Can you confirm with regard to the search for any documentation 522 00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:14,490 with regard to any side block requirement, 523 00:44:15,250 --> 00:44:17,890 predating the commission action in 2024? 524 00:44:19,110 --> 00:44:22,090 As I recall, there were some meeting minutes that referenced it, 525 00:44:22,090 --> 00:44:30,490 There was we couldn't find any actual documentation of the PUD requiring it or any minutes of motions that spoke to it. 526 00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:36,110 That's a really good question and I brought it up more during the first go around. 527 00:44:36,350 --> 00:44:44,290 We had some of the literature there that we found. Unfortunately for whatever reason we don't really have zoning files that predate 1990. 528 00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:46,330 They were tossed at some point. 529 00:44:47,110 --> 00:44:52,990 So we don't have the original plan, there's some pieces of it but it doesn't exactly show 530 00:44:52,990 --> 00:44:59,730 a sidewalk, but looking through the files around 1997 and in 2004. 531 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:09,020 There were discussions about it, and those emails referenced that the sidewalks needed to be installed. It didn't say where they were. 532 00:45:09,340 --> 00:45:21,160 Both sides of the street, one side of the street throughout the entire development or not. It just looked at some point that there was a requirement that a sidewalk should be put in, but we can't find exactly where that would be located. 533 00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:35,800 One comment on the original PUD in our discussions in the past two years or so, we have reached out to John Darian. 534 00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:39,800 He's still with us and he lives in the Trevor City area. 535 00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:44,480 He had indicated that he does not have any of the PUD documents also. 536 00:45:45,980 --> 00:45:51,000 So we went down the same road that Director Francis was that we were in search of the same 537 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,480 documents and he said, no, I don't have them. 538 00:45:54,580 --> 00:45:57,220 Whether he did or not, I'm not sure, but that was his answer. 539 00:45:58,300 --> 00:45:58,440 Thank you. 540 00:45:58,860 --> 00:45:59,460 Thank you. 541 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:00,320 Thank you. 542 00:46:00,820 --> 00:46:02,960 Have any further questions, comments? 543 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,180 I was going to address a couple of the questions that came up but then also kind of give 544 00:46:08,180 --> 00:46:12,300 my position to, so a question came about the open areas and how that's going to be impacted. 545 00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:20,220 So that was a dress, they've already had approval for the expansion, and that was a dress in that last public hearing by the PUD. 546 00:46:21,140 --> 00:46:26,920 But they would need to meet all Eagle permit requirements as well for anything with Dune grass and things like that. 547 00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:31,380 So those things have been addressed. 548 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:40,260 I keep looking at this and thinking about perfect mean the enemy of good and our goal here is to have more sidewalks. 549 00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:43,760 If we don't allow this change, we're guaranteed not to have more sidewalks. 550 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,460 If we allow this change, there's a possibility that we'll have sidewalks and the co-owners 551 00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:51,200 will have the opportunity to vote on it. 552 00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:56,880 And that's really what this process does is it gives the co-owners in hard recounting the 553 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,040 ability to go back and vote on the situation. 554 00:47:00,620 --> 00:47:04,680 So Lake Commissioner Garran, I'm also going to support the amendment because I think it moves 555 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,760 this in the right direction. 556 00:47:05,820 --> 00:47:06,620 It's not perfect. 557 00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:08,340 It's not the way that I would want to see it. 558 00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:12,220 would want to see more sidewalks, but we're guaranteed not to have the sidewalks if we don't 559 00:47:12,220 --> 00:47:12,980 make the change. 560 00:47:17,580 --> 00:47:18,480 Yes, Mr. Man. 561 00:47:18,820 --> 00:47:21,800 As you can see, I move the request to amend the Planning and Development Harvard Town 562 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,320 County Minimum Association to reduce the amount of sidewalk being installed as required 563 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,240 as part of their plans to construct additional housing. 564 00:47:27,420 --> 00:47:29,760 You recommended the City Commission for approval with following conditions. 565 00:47:30,340 --> 00:47:32,820 One, a turnaround must be incorporated at the end of the channel view point. 566 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,820 Two, a stormwater permit must be obtained from the engineering department before construction 567 00:47:35,820 --> 00:47:36,380 commences. 568 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,200 Three, a landscaping plan is provided. 569 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,720 for a crosswalk will be installed at the end of the street. 570 00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:44,260 Five grading easements will be needed outside this existing right away, 571 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,120 particularly among the east side of the street. 572 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,520 If not obtainable retaining walls may be required. 573 00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:52,260 Six improved sidewalk ramps and requiring grading easements 574 00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:55,100 and possibly requiring permanent easements will be required 575 00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:58,420 at the fault and entrance to make the sidewalks ADA compliant. 576 00:47:59,380 --> 00:48:03,400 I had a friendly amendment for clarity and note that the requirement 577 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:13,400 for a fire hydrant is removed, because sometimes I can create questions in the future if there's 578 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:19,380 a condition in one and then not in the next. So note that that is the reference to the fire hydrant 579 00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:24,550 requirement previous version has been stricken from this version. Second. 580 00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:29,440 Motion is again. 581 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:37,280 move by our mayor, Kim Johnson, and this is a part of a commission government. 582 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,460 Can we have a vote? 583 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,380 Well, I'll just say the final thoughts. 584 00:48:42,060 --> 00:48:45,200 I will support the motion that's on the floor. 585 00:48:45,940 --> 00:48:51,960 As our manager said, ideal, the ideal would be there to be sidewalk among the entirety 586 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:52,480 of that road. 587 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:54,120 That's still my personal preference, 588 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,120 and I'm going to continue to advocate for sidewalks 589 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:03,740 We're responsible in our city, so we have complete streets, which is a city policy of ours. 590 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:04,680 However, 591 00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:12,510 the exciting way of circumstances here, and there was good faith effort made on the city's 592 00:49:12,510 --> 00:49:18,850 part and the kind of socials part to find a way to be able to fund and install the sidewalk and do 593 00:49:18,850 --> 00:49:24,970 to fiscal constraints, engineering constraints, topography constraints, determined that it's just 594 00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:29,970 not feasible at this time. 595 00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:34,690 I still would like to see that find a, still to find a way 596 00:49:34,690 --> 00:49:36,050 to make that happen. 597 00:49:36,610 --> 00:49:38,190 However, if we were going to get a sidewalk 598 00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:40,790 at all here, I think this is a very important section 599 00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:42,950 of the sidewalk, connecting Fulton to Indiana, 600 00:49:44,170 --> 00:49:44,190 street. 601 00:49:45,090 --> 00:49:46,690 And by extension, connecting Harvittown Beach 602 00:49:46,690 --> 00:49:48,530 through Indiana to Pirmarket, 603 00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:49,950 is important. 604 00:49:51,590 --> 00:49:54,030 And you all have sunk in costs already 605 00:49:54,030 --> 00:49:59,810 and these vacant lots and I understand this is an important development not only to help 606 00:49:59,810 --> 00:50:05,270 get more residents to help shoulder the cost of maintaining your condo association and your 607 00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:09,530 facilities and common areas but also the development process is going to be significant and 608 00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:19,650 help support your association and condo residents as well. So I will support this maybe a little 609 00:50:19,650 --> 00:50:20,690 of a grudgingly? 610 00:50:21,310 --> 00:50:23,870 I mean, grudging might not be the right best words, 611 00:50:27,310 --> 00:50:30,170 but saddened, maybe, we couldn't find a way 612 00:50:30,170 --> 00:50:33,070 to ensure that there's going to be a continuous sidewalk 613 00:50:33,730 --> 00:50:36,830 on either side of that street. 614 00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:39,210 That would have been part of the preference of the ideal, 615 00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:42,930 but has the manager said sometimes the perfect 616 00:50:42,930 --> 00:50:44,590 can be the enemy of the good. 617 00:50:45,390 --> 00:50:48,500 And those are my thoughts. 618 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:49,760 Yes. 619 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:57,700 Just as a disinformation, under planning law and under planning developments, 620 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:18,460 there is indication of separating a new amended proposal from the existing and reading through my notes from our training. 621 00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:32,840 It was not only desirable but was a lot, you go ahead and handle the new proposal without 622 00:51:34,460 --> 00:51:42,360 dropping any perceived efficiency that had existed, you know, from the past and you would 623 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:51,770 still pursue, you know, that, but we're not even sure, you know, if there is a deficiency 624 00:51:53,230 --> 00:52:01,250 or a breach in, you know, existing contractual PUD language, 625 00:52:03,330 --> 00:52:05,710 but there is, that's part 626 00:52:05,710 --> 00:52:12,330 the mechanism, under planning law, that within an existing unit, 627 00:52:14,510 --> 00:52:19,070 you do address a new proposal 628 00:52:19,070 --> 00:52:24,150 without dropping the need to address the pre-existing situation. 629 00:52:24,770 --> 00:52:25,730 So, that's just an aside. 630 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:29,380 Any other comments? 631 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:38,980 Just a clarify, given we just heard from Commissioner Garret, I think the event that we're 632 00:52:38,980 --> 00:52:44,600 documentation were to surface that was a requirement of the original POD. No action being taken 633 00:52:46,550 --> 00:52:52,430 here, undo that previous requirement. If it were to be found, if we found out that side was 634 00:52:52,430 --> 00:52:57,230 re-required and this didn't pass, no no I'm saying if this were passed because we're talking about 635 00:52:57,230 --> 00:53:06,310 just one, we're talking about taking away a new requirement that we added in 2024 or a condition 636 00:53:06,310 --> 00:53:10,430 for an amendment. And so we're removing that condition to that amendment of just one area 637 00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:16,170 that's being developed. If you were, if you were, if documentation were to surface that the 638 00:53:16,170 --> 00:53:22,170 original PUD had required a sidewalk that is not now negated because we simply are 639 00:53:22,170 --> 00:53:31,830 mending a condition for these additional housing. I would kind of tough to answer. I guess I would 640 00:53:31,830 --> 00:53:38,290 say no, it wouldn't because the conditions are about the expansion and not about what is existing 641 00:53:38,290 --> 00:53:44,530 there at the time. So, and that's also why I made that from the amendment to add the striking 642 00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:48,670 of a hydrant in there to make sure that it's clear on what is changing. So, this is strictly 643 00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:54,570 related to them being able to do the expansion that's in place. If we found out that the original 644 00:53:54,570 --> 00:54:01,810 requirements were not met, that would be a different discussion. Now, I don't know if it would be 645 00:54:01,810 --> 00:54:05,590 that discussion. If that was discovered, but I would see these as two separate things. 646 00:54:06,010 --> 00:54:07,270 Okay, thank you. 647 00:54:09,260 --> 00:54:10,320 You went out. 648 00:54:13,010 --> 00:54:15,030 I'm going for a vote again. 649 00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:19,980 Commissioner Keener. Yes. 650 00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:21,620 Go around. 651 00:54:21,820 --> 00:54:22,240 Yes. 652 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,100 Say for? Yes. 653 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:25,700 It was Garza. Yes. 654 00:54:26,140 --> 00:54:26,540 In Johnson. 655 00:54:31,690 --> 00:54:35,370 So we have a guest on hearing case 2016. 656 00:54:36,330 --> 00:54:41,170 I'm going to move on to unfinished business. Do we have any unfinished business? 657 00:54:41,170 --> 00:54:47,490 I'm going to get a confirmation, but that come to the City Commission August 25th, or that 658 00:54:47,490 --> 00:54:50,070 be in our September, and should the August 25th? 659 00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:55,050 So just for folks in the audience and your neighbors know that this will become the City Commission 660 00:54:55,050 --> 00:54:58,810 on August 25th, and that's when the City Commission will be considering the planning 661 00:54:58,810 --> 00:54:59,650 commission's recommendation. 662 00:55:00,730 --> 00:55:05,430 And there will be public comment available at the beginning of the commission meeting 663 00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:07,430 before the Commission deliberates and votes. 664 00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:09,790 Thank you for clarifying. 665 00:55:09,790 --> 00:55:17,650 If you want to open a business, do we have any unfinished business, no unfinished business? 666 00:55:18,930 --> 00:55:22,190 Well, I just wonder, when are we going to have a joint city planning commission meeting? 667 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:25,280 That's a good question. 668 00:55:25,780 --> 00:55:28,780 We could schedule one. 669 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,800 We probably wanted to decide what the topic would be. 670 00:55:33,380 --> 00:55:36,800 Because we were supposed to be doing one every once in a year. 671 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:37,240 Yeah. 672 00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:37,740 to read the moment. 673 00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:38,540 Yeah, that would be true. 674 00:55:40,700 --> 00:55:45,500 So, I guess for each of us to decide, I would respect the bodies on the particular topic 675 00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:49,740 so I want to discuss one of which is what we've been having. 676 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,860 There's a broad board previously, which is around public access. 677 00:55:53,220 --> 00:55:54,100 Waterfront public access. 678 00:55:54,660 --> 00:55:57,980 And so there was some little discussion here, deferred back to staff to get clarification. 679 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,520 And it had popped up on our agenda for a close session discussion at one point. 680 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,180 that didn't happen, and I haven't seen it returned, 681 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,560 some prompts that's a topic that can be addressed 682 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,000 by the Planning Commission and the City Commission together, 683 00:56:12,180 --> 00:56:14,120 considering it was the City Commission that had given direction 684 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:20,880 to move forward with the zoning change to support more water 685 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:21,880 from public access. 686 00:56:23,980 --> 00:56:26,480 Do you know about when? 687 00:56:26,620 --> 00:56:28,500 We would have to figure out. 688 00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:31,380 Yeah, we'd have to figure out dates that would work 689 00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:35,400 I think every the last time we did it, we just combined it with a city commission meeting 690 00:56:36,260 --> 00:56:39,420 or if we want to have a special meeting in a different location or something like that 691 00:56:39,420 --> 00:56:40,760 that could accommodate everybody. 692 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,540 Thank you. 693 00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:44,860 Any new business? 694 00:56:50,020 --> 00:56:50,400 Move on. 695 00:56:50,660 --> 00:56:51,840 Any other business? 696 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,180 So, with that being said, we want to open up to general public comments. 697 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:00,120 Any about there? 698 00:57:00,220 --> 00:57:00,760 Any one out there? 699 00:57:00,940 --> 00:57:01,960 That has anything. 700 00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:03,700 Any general public comment? 701 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,500 Please feel free to come to the podium. 702 00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:07,680 Yes 703 00:57:12,830 --> 00:57:19,830 sir. Well we're waiting can I ask your question of Mike Pramp's in the last public 704 00:57:19,830 --> 00:57:26,030 hearing there was discussion about or made mention about the docks. Do you have any new 705 00:57:26,030 --> 00:57:33,250 information about the status of that project that you could share with us? I do not. I'm not sure 706 00:57:33,250 --> 00:57:39,690 if the city manager has any. I believe there's working through the permitting process with the state. 707 00:57:41,050 --> 00:57:55,130 I heard that there was, I'm sure we all want to hear this, but I heard that there may be another request coming back to the planning commission for another adjustment to their PUD. 708 00:57:55,170 --> 00:57:56,270 You heard that. 709 00:57:57,150 --> 00:57:57,490 No. 710 00:58:00,370 --> 00:58:01,570 Thank you. 711 00:58:05,220 --> 00:58:09,880 active general public comments seeing us how we have no one out in the audience 712 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:17,440 we've got one down there no one that looks want to give public comment we're 713 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:22,380 going to move to recognize your presence thank you we're going to move to the 714 00:58:22,380 --> 00:58:28,240 fold lines again that number is two three one seven two four six seven two 715 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:35,720 Again, that's 2, 3, 1, 7, 2, 4, 6, 7, 2, 1, 4, any general public comment? 716 00:58:59,890 --> 00:59:01,750 Because we don't want to do it. 717 00:59:02,050 --> 00:59:03,770 Because we don't want to do it. 718 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:26,760 What else? 719 00:59:27,580 --> 00:59:28,660 We have no cause. 720 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,480 I am going to move to make a motion for a giant minute. 721 00:59:32,540 --> 00:59:33,100 So move. 722 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:33,980 Second. 723 00:59:35,780 --> 00:59:37,920 Move by Mayor Kim Johnson. 724 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,340 Seconded by... 725 00:59:40,340 --> 00:59:41,460 That you, Commissioner. 726 00:59:41,460 --> 00:59:41,900 down. 727 00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:43,660 Mr. Steve. 728 00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:46,480 Thank you.