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progress.
>> Hello everybody. I'm going to call the

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uh September 3rd workshop meeting of
Burough Council to order and I'll lead

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us in the pledge.

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To the flag of the United States of
America and to the stands one nation

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under God
and justice for all.

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» President Bush
>> here.

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» Vice President Ricks
>> here.

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» Council member Samson
>> here.

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» Council member Barack
>> here. Council member Spear

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» here.
>> Council member Godini

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» here.
>> Council member Stratton

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» here. and Mayor Dana Edwards
>> here.

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» Okay. Uh

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I don't think I have any comments uh at
this time. I will note

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that

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we do have one consideration item. So I
think I will take um public comment

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before we vote on that consideration
item.

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Uh otherwise public comment will be at
the end of the meeting as it generally

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is a workshop.
Okay. Um Mr. Mayor, do you have

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comments?
>> No comments. Thank you.

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» Okay. Uh so let's move on to the agenda.
Uh our first discussion item is the uh

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bridge project update.
So let's begin with a a summary and then

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we can see if there's a motion. Um but
right now

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you want to give us our
sum of the situation.

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» Yeah. And I want to also mention that we
have um Mo Gawe here. Uh he's with

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traffic planning and design. Um so we
have him online. Uh he is our

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construction manager uh for this
project. Um so what is before you

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tonight is a consideration for some
options to uh alter the the bridge uh

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project slightly. And this is because
the site access was originally intended

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to be through the uh parking lot. Um
that access is not available at this

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time and so we are pivoting to taking
access from the south side um of the

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tracks which would result in us bringing
um um you machines and uh materials uh

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on the tracks themselves as opposed to
coming in off of the right of way.

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um because of the uh number of trips
that we would have to take um that does

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increase the project cost. Um so we have
a couple of options ahead of us. Uh

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these numbers so I produced a memo to
council a couple days ago as part of

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your packets. Those numbers have been
revised. So we do have those available

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um if we want to pull them up. Um and
actually we should probably because the

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numbers are are different nominally but
they're different. Um so if we do

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nothing to the bridge design, option one
would maintain the um existing

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pedestrian access um would have the
two-phase bridge construction uh but it

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would cost some additional money to um
potentially to the burrow and this is

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going to be the
um

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the ECMS.

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So, while we're getting this up, I'll
just keep going through the the three

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options.
Is it going to not show up because it's

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in word? Yeah.
>> Okay. [clears throat] Sorry. I'm sorry.

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Stand by. We have um
it's in Word, so it won't show up on our

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screen.
>> Correct.

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» Okay. My apologies. We'll just read out
the numbers then.

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So option one
um this would maintain all of our

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existing um design configurations and
timeline for the project. One of the

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things that we want to mention is that
we do have an approved budget. This is a

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fedally funded project but we have a
maximum approved budget for this. So any

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costs above that budget uh would be
borne by the sponsor and the bureau is

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the sponsor. So we uh would anticipate
then that we would be on the hook to pay

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any additional funds above what the
project approval costs um have that have

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been already approved. So option one um
in order to access the the construction

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entrance um it would result in an an
additional estimated cost of $244,000.

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This maintains the original completion
date of July 24th, 2029.

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um because we did start looking at other
options uh beyond just that one. We did

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come up with two others that are before
you this evening and I will give a brief

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overview of them and then I'll turn it
over to Mo to to talk a little bit in

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more detail about them. So option number
two would be to install a temporary

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pedestrian bridge. Um this would be
about a million dollars worth of

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construction cost to build the bridge.
What it does allow us to do though is

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actually demo the bridge in a uh rebuild
the bridge in a single phase as opposed

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to a two-phase. So, it eliminates that
construction seam in the middle of the

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bridge. Um, that is, I'm told, a better
product overall for long-term

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maintenance.
>> Sorry, sorry, I got feedback from people

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on Zoom that the audio is garbled and
getting worse. Is there anything

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different or is it the same?
>> Yeah, I don't know what we can do about

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garbles.
>> Yeah, sorry. Sorry.

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That usually has to do with the noise
like noise cancellation is on somehow

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either with Zoom [clears throat] or the
um the

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or the owl.
>> Yeah. Um

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» sorry.
>> Yeah. I just

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» It's all the same.

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» Does it help if we speak up?
>> Yeah, we'll try speaking louder. But

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» I do see the audio isn't jumping as much
as it normally does.

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The little icon there.
>> I mean, short of me unplugging

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everything. Um,
>> I don't We can try I don't want to

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interrupt the meeting too much. I
understand that folks are having a hard

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time hearing us online. Um, we can pause
for a few minutes and try to fix this or

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give people an opportunity to come down.

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What's what is council's pleasure here?
>> I do not think we pause the meeting. I

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think we've got a lot going on.
>> Okay.

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» I think we'd speak up and if if we can
identify a specific thing we can do

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» to try that would be fine. But like
rebooting the whole setup is

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» is it supposed to be red?
>> Yeah, that's the camera.

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» Oh, that's No, no. On the owl itself
there's a Is that okay? So maybe we do

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need to reboot the owl.
All

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right. In that case, yes, let's read
with the [laughter]

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Apologies to the folks in the room.
[snorts]

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What is this connected to?
That's that.

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This is very uncomfortably close to me.
[laughter]

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The video is on. Oh, there we go.
>> Oh, there we go. It just went off.

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a little tucked.
>> Sony online want to tell us

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to see if it
>> I will note that there is a budget

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proposal at some point to redo the audio
setup in here.

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» Keep that in mind.
>> It's jumping.

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» Okay. It seems like that's an
improvement. So, I think we're going to

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proceed and hope that that fixes it.
Okay.

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» Maggie, if you want to jump back into
the second option.

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» Yeah. Where was I? So, option number two
is the pedestrian bridge. Um, the

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pedestrian bridge does uh cost about a
million dollars. Um, there are cost

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savings though on the back end because
it would save um about 7 months on the

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schedule.
So, uh net cost for this one would be

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about $700,000
and 7 months ahead of schedule and we

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maintain pedestrian access through this
temporary pedestrian bridge. Uh but

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again, because these additional costs
would likely be borne by us, that would

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be $700,000 that we would need to budget
for uh for this construction project

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that we don't currently have budgeted.
Option number three, um would eliminate

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the pedestrian access. So this would be
no pedestrian bridge and we would do a

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singlephase construction. So we would
terminate pedestrian access for the

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duration of the construction project,
which is about 15 months. Um, the

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benefit of this one is that it would
actually be a net savings of about

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$270,000
to the overall project cost. Now, we

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don't get that money back. This is
fedally funded. It just means that we

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wouldn't spend any extra money of
burough funds. Um, and we anticipate

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that this could wrap the project up
almost 11 months ahead of schedule with

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an anticipated completion date of um,
September of 2028. So, this would

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dramatically reduce the overall
construction timeline for this project,

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but it would eliminate the pedestrian
access. So, those are the three options

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before you. I'm going to turn it over to
Mo u Mo if you're online um to add in

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any um additional details and then we'll
open it up to questions from council.

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» Thanks, Maggie. Can everybody hear me?
Okay.

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» Mhm. Yes. Thank you. I think so.
>> Yeah, Maggie summed it up perfectly. Um,

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option one, um, you know, we have to
access from the Overbrook tracks, um,

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and move equipment through that fourth
track up to the north side of the

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bridge. There's no savings in time.
There is additional costs. Um, option

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two, we would construct a temporary
pedestrian bridge. It would still need

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to go through the design and approval
process um, with the contractor and

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Penoni to make sure that it's it's going
to support pedestrians. We would also

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need to coordinate with uh Pico Electric
and Comcast to uh transfer the utilities

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onto the pedestrian bridge to allow us
to do the singlephase construction and

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eliminate that construction joint. And
again, that would be um an overall

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additional cost of over 700,000. It
would save 7 months on the schedule.

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eliminating um option number three,
eliminating pedestrian bridge um seems

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to be um the preferred method by you
know the contractor and and pendot would

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would result in the overall savings. Um
we feel like we can you know try to

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save you know 11 months of of time as
well.

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Does anybody have any questions about
any of the three options that I can

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answer for you?
>> Yeah. So, at this point, questions for

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uh about the logistics would be
appropriate and then we can discuss

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afterwards.

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» Just a point of clarity because I I know
what you mean, but other folks might

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not. When you said eliminate pedestrian
access, we're talking about for the

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duration of construction.
>> That's correct.

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» And there will be pedestrian access on
the bridge post construction.

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» Yes. And we would actually be able to
reopen pedestrian access before the

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bridge is fully open to vehicular
traffic as well. So this wouldn't

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necessarily need to wait until the
project is fully completely done, all

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elements of it. So the the deck, like
the bridge deck, the actual

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paved portion of it, um could be open to
pedestrians while they finish some of

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the freeze work and the utility
connections, things like that that

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wouldn't impede pedestrian access, but
the bridge would not yet be open to uh

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vehicles. So we would try to expedite
the pedestrian reopening as as much as

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possible. Um but yes, this is just
eliminating pedestrian access just for

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the period of construction which is
anticipated to be about 15 months.

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» Yeah. And just and also just to to resum
up even though you already said it,

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there were unforeseen circumstances that
we now have to respond to. And so our

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options are keep on the main pass but
meaningfully increase what we need to

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spend on that which has implications for
our CIP.

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um try to maintain pedestrian access at
at a significant additional cost which

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would also have to have implications for
a CIP or try to take a option that will

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speed up the process. It will lose
access for that period of time. Um there

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will be a net savings because of the
truncated um time frame.

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» Correct.
>> Okay.

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» Yep. Great summary.
>> So you say 15 months is the expected

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duration of construction.
>> Yes. You mentioned that the pedestrian

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access might open up earlier than 15
months or is 15 months inclusive of that

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earlier in you know early.
>> Yeah, Mo, correct me if I'm wrong, but

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the 15 months is the expedited opening
for pedestrians. Correct.

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» Yeah. Yeah. We we would figure that by
the time we have the deck board and the

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barriers installed and and working on
the architectural features, we should be

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ready to allow pedestrians on the deck.
um

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probably late June of 2028.
>> Um

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» 20
>> that's assume that the contractor can

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get the road paved and try to get us
back in a situation where we can at

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least get them back on before it's open
to ve vehicular traffic.

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» And when would the closure pedestrian
closure start? immediately or

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» with that option, we said January of
2027

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through about June of 2028.
[clears throat]

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» Um, hi Mo, thanks for being here. by the
way. Um can I ask a question about

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option three because again it's a
significantly earlier completion date um

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which is very attractive and I know one
of the issues is certainly the concern

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of neighbors adjacent to the bridge that
are going to hear a significant amount

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of work happen at night. Does that that
new date in option three alleviate some

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of that night work by agents?
Um, I would say the night work probably

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stays close to the same, if not a little
bit less, because now, um, we're

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basically consolidating instead of
having to do the two stages of of the

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excavation on the bridge and having to
set the bridge beams in two different

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phases, we would be consolidating those
uh activities into a single operation.

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Um, so yeah, I guess you would could you
could say that um like towards the

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middle of the project and definitely
towards the end we would be saving um I

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guess some of the there would be some
relief with the night work.

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» No, I think we're still on questions for
>> I have a question.

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» Go ahead. Um you mentioned that the
doing the bridge in a singlephase

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construction would result in a
structurally uh better bridge and

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potentially
lower cost maintenance over over time.

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Can you go into detail um
>> about that and what what the the cost

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difference might be long term for
maintenance?

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Well, when when you introduce a
construction joint where we have it

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currently designed, you have a bigger
potential of a failure point and and

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more um more of a maintenance concern.
When you eliminate the construction

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joint and you or the deck and the
abupments in a single pore, um you

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reduce that risk long term.

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You you you eliminate the failure point.
Do you have a sense of what the

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maintenance cost difference over the
long term might be between a singlephase

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bridge project and a
a two-phase bridge project with the

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seam?

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» You mean in terms of maintenance?
>> Yeah, in terms of long-term maintenance

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costs.
Um, I I don't have the figures on how

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much savings it would cost for long-term
maintenance, but I would imagine it

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would definitely, you know, longterm it
it would in terms of bridge inspections

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and having to come back and possibly
address future failure points and

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concerns. It would, you know, there
would be time basically that that you'd

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be saving and any shutdowns of the
bridge that you would have to do to to

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address those concerns. Um, but as far
as a dollar amount, I don't have that.

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Well, but I can I can look into it for
you.

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» And Jean, along with that as well, just
in terms of local maintenance, just the

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snow plow operations, having the
smoother road versus the seam road just

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for um salting and plowing operations
would be uh just easier and less uh less

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concern. Um but obviously the bridge was
designed in a two-phase, so we are

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committed to building it that way.
However, if we have the option to pivot,

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um, then that is a benefit to option two
or three.

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» If if we make these changes, do we have
to go through all of the cycle of

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approvals that we had to go through?
Cuz, you know, those took so long.

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Like I'm just hesitant about these time
frames. Are they taking into account

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whether and to what extent we need to
get approvals from Comcast, Verizon,

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Pico, Amtrak, SEPTA, and all the other
all the other folks that we need to get

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approvals for the initial construction.
>> You have you have you have more levels

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of approval with the pedestrian bridge
than you would for eliminating

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pedestrian access. the had not been made
aware that, you know, we could if we

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build we eliminate the pedestrian
access, you know, they cuz the site's

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currently not ADA compliant, they would
approve that change. It seems like they

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would approve that change pretty pretty
quickly. Things in construction tend to

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get approved a lot quicker than during
the the traditional design process and

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trying to get it out to bid. When we're
in construction, we can we can make

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things happen a little bit faster.
[clears throat]

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» Okay. Thanks.
>> Is it correct to say that um the

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construction project is waiting on this
decision right now that we are not

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proceeding because this decision needs
to be made?

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» That that would be correct. Um if we
would go with pedestrian bridge option,

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we would need to know sooner rather than
later so the contractor can submit their

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plans and submit their um designs for
approval. get there will be some

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fabrication and and lead times with
associated with that. Um doing the

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elimination of the pedestrian bridge um
would allow the contractor then to um

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00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:58,240
complete their designs for excavation
support in one stage rather than having

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to try to um figure out, you know, to a
second stage um excavation support. and

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also submitting the
beam placement plan. We can do that all

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in one shot now versus having to do a
peace meal.

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00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,520
» Okay.
>> Anybody else have some questions for

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00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:21,200
him?
>> Just one clarification. Uh if um we were

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talking about 15 months without
pedestrian access, when I count from

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January 27 to June 28, I get 17 months.
Uh just want to make sure I'm counting

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correctly.

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» I mean to go from June 1st to
these were estimated they estimate.

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00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:49,840
» I just want to make sure we're that
people listening. No, [clears throat]

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» it is 15 or 17
but but it's it's in that range. Sounds

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00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,760
like it's 16 plus minus. It would be
about 16 months is what we were told by

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the contractor.
>> 16.

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» Okay. 16 months.
>> Thank you.

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00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:07,520
» Sorry, maybe I missed it because it's
getting a little loud in here. But that

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you say this is going to have to be
submitted for some kind of approval. If

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we approve a design change, not design
change, but a, you know, construction

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change.
any like is there any peril with that

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that it it gets caught up in like a
delayed approval

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00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:32,320
again like what um what's your sense of
whether that could get caught up in

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00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:35,280
somebody's desk for you know 6 months or
more it

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00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,840
» I don't know that that's going to happen
uh we've been talking about this um now

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for the past few weeks I'd say for at
least a month Maggie with the value

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00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:48,240
engineering and and when we started
discussing the elimination of pedestrian

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access. Everybody on the project team
seemed to, you know, ready to do what it

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00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:58,080
takes to get that plan approved. Um
there would have to be, you know, some

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00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:04,720
modifications to the structural plans,
but we could work through that in the

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00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:08,720
interim before um before we get to that
point. It's the these changes are, you

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00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,320
know, would be field changes
essentially. Um and it could happen a

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00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:18,240
lot quicker than having to go through
the the design process, you know, before

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00:22:15,679 --> 00:22:21,440
going out to bed.
>> Yeah, I think we're not worried so much

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00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:27,039
about the contractors as about all the
state agencies and all the uh you know,

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00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:30,640
Amtrak and the [snorts] Conrailman and
all of that.

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00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:35,679
» Amtrak's been committed to helping the
project, you know, get access through

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00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:39,600
their through their yard um down by the
Overbrook Station to allow us to use

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00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,960
their tracks. Um, now obviously there's
there could always be hiccups along the

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00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:48,720
way, but they they have been committed
to making sure that we um complete this

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00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:53,840
project as as as quickly as we can if we
do this modification to the contract.

289
00:22:51,679 --> 00:22:58,320
» Okay. Has your company done a project
like this before bringing in materials

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00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:04,400
on the tracks
like this?

291
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:08,880
» Um, my company TP, no. Um, but the
contractor has, you know, experience

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00:23:06,159 --> 00:23:13,039
with, uh, railroads agencies and and
SEPTA and Amtrak and they have the the

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00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:17,679
connections there and and and have the
equipment to be able to access uh, the

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00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:22,960
tracks and and bring their equipment and
materials into where we need it to be

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and uh, move quickly and efficiently.
>> I'll point out that all three plants, I

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00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,400
think, have the equipment coming in
through the rail, right? So, those are

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00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,120
that that is a a a change that we'll
have to

298
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:37,760
» Yeah. regardless of the options that we
choose because of the access we will

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00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:44,480
have to bring in everything on the on
the rails. Um and and uh Joe to your

300
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:48,720
question earlier um I I'm referencing my
notes. So our previous discussions with

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00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:52,480
the contractor again these are estimated
timelines.

302
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:58,320
If we proceed with no pedestrian bridge
we're thinking January 2027 through

303
00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:02,880
April 2028 not June. My apologies. Um if
we do the pedestrian bridge option two,

304
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:07,120
then we would be looking at uh
demolition

305
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:12,159
um starting about May 2027 through
August 2028. Again, rough timelines.

306
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:16,736
» Totally understood. Great. So January
27th through April 28. There we go.

307
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:19,279
Thanks.
[clears throat]

308
00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:21,120
» Estimated timelines.
>> Estimated timelines.

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00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,200
» Estimated. Yeah.
>> Yep.

310
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,400
» All right. Uh, thank you, Mo. If you
don't mind sticking around uh for a few

311
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,919
minutes in case we have more questions
while we're discussing this, that would

312
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:34,279
be very helpful.
>> Okay, council members,

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00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,600
Mr. Mayor, anybody have thoughts they
want to

314
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:46,480
» I guess I'll I've expressed some
concerns already about this. Um

315
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:51,679
um I guess
my concern about deciding tonight is

316
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:58,640
that I feel like we have not complete
information and that's based on my view

317
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:05,520
that it's not clear to me who bears the
risk of

318
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:10,720
uh loss contractually for the
misapprehension in terms of what the

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00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:16,240
access for this project would look like.
uh I tried to look at the contracts

320
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:20,080
today. I really don't feel comfortable
making the determination that these

321
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:27,039
costs would fall in the burrow as
opposed to contractor based on um where

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00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:30,720
those risk of loss provisions are. And
so it's

323
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:36,880
um
I guess I I feel like I

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00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,799
I and I recognize what President Bush
said about you know if we wait it's

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00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:46,159
means that they can't start but I feel
like in the next two weeks we could get

326
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:51,120
an opinion from our solicitor as to to
ensure that these costs would actually

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00:25:48,159 --> 00:25:54,960
be fall on the bureau and not the
contractor or some other third party. I

328
00:25:53,200 --> 00:26:01,919
know the state has said that it's not on
them. Um, but I do have real concerns

329
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:06,320
about making decisions [snorts] largely
I think on these cost considerations

330
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,880
when we're not even sure that those cost
considerations are accurate in terms of

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00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:16,720
whether they would fall in the burrow or
not. Having said that, I you know my own

332
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:23,360
view is if if these are accurate, I
think option three um is the obvious

333
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:29,600
choice here. As much as I would love to
keep the pedestrian access

334
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:33,600
uh going, you know, we bicyclists can
get under the bridge, I do have some

335
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:38,880
concerns about accessibility and we
pride ourselves on being a burough for

336
00:26:35,679 --> 00:26:45,520
all. I don't know whether we can come up
with some sort of ability to transport

337
00:26:43,919 --> 00:26:51,200
people from the southside who are
wheelchair bound or otherwise limited in

338
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:55,440
their ability to get underneath the
tunnel. Um whether that's getting share

339
00:26:53,679 --> 00:26:59,279
rides from the police force or something
else. But I think we have to consider

340
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:03,919
that if we're going to eliminate
pedestrian access over the bridge

341
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:09,600
because we can't cut off a third of our
population. some people who might have

342
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,600
accessibility issues. Um, so I think I
think

343
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:16,000
» Yeah. So I think we have to, you know,
put that into consideration if we're

344
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:20,320
going to adopt option three.
>> Okay. So you're you're concerned about

345
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:25,919
the contract. Like I don't think there
is a way that we could get option two

346
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:30,799
paid for by the contractor. Like I it
looks [clears throat] like if if if we

347
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:36,080
somehow manage to um you know persuade a
judge that uh well I think potentially

348
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,520
your argument applies to option one
right that the fees option one which is

349
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,880
not a design change. I don't think we
could force a contractor to change their

350
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:47,840
design and pay extra out of their
>> No. I Well, and I think option my sense

351
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,840
is option two isn't really a
consideration

352
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:54,720
» among any of us, right? I mean, it
doesn't necessarily make sense

353
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:57,760
regardless. So, it's really just
evaluating option one versus option

354
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:02,640
three. I agree with that.
>> Okay. We'll leave that in mind. other

355
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,120
council members.
>> Are we going around or

356
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:10,720
» Well, people feel that we can go around.
Do you want to go?

357
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:15,440
» Sure. Yeah. I mean, it would be painful
to eliminate the continuous pedestrian

358
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:20,960
access since we that was one of our
specificifications, you know,

359
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:26,880
originally. Um although to be fair with
that it wasn't apparent until very late

360
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:32,159
in the game then that that maintaining
pedestrian access would bear

361
00:28:29,679 --> 00:28:35,679
a higher time frame. remember that it
was kind of we were not

362
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:39,520
» confirmed. They were definitely there
was a tradeoff and it appeared that we

363
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:43,039
couldn't do anything about it at that
time. You know that it just wasn't a

364
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,120
consideration anymore about you know we
were kind of stuck with our previous

365
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,559
decision to maintain pedestrian access.
But now it looks like we have the

366
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:55,919
opportunity to revisit that with not
only cost savings but time savings which

367
00:28:53,200 --> 00:29:02,240
is you know it's still not the best
thing but I agree probably probably it's

368
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:08,559
the way to go under the circumstances as
option three which eliminates pedestrian

369
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:12,080
access for 15ish months. I like the idea
that we come up with some kind of

370
00:29:10,159 --> 00:29:18,480
shuttle or something for people who I
mean there must be people who approach

371
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:23,120
even to use the the train station who
need to get to the other side that can't

372
00:29:20,159 --> 00:29:27,840
use the the stairs who you know have to
go over the bridge at this point. I

373
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:32,880
don't know how many people that is.
>> Yeah. I mean, we we have the numbers for

374
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:37,840
how many people use the bridge as a
pedestrian or as a bicyclist, but it

375
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:42,320
doesn't say whether they're impaired in
any way. So, you know, it could be two

376
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:47,039
people a day. It could be 20. Who knows?
I I don't think it's that significant,

377
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:51,279
but I do think we should at least if
we're going to adopt

378
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:55,200
number three, I I feel pretty strongly
that we should come up with some sort of

379
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:59,760
whether it's through public health and
safety or some sort of

380
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:06,399
» plan to ensure access for those who
won't be able to walk under the tunnel.

381
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:11,440
I guess.
>> So, I've had the same discussions,

382
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:17,840
obvious concerns about the pedestrian
accessibility, mobility impaired, um,

383
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:25,679
and bicyclists. And it it's a long time.
Um, at the same time, like when you're

384
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:30,240
weighing uh when how quickly the how
many months we're going to save 11

385
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:37,120
months, that's a significant length of
time. Um there's also the benefit of uh

386
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:44,399
the the structurally stronger stronger
bridge and there's the cost. Um and so

387
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:50,399
Maggie I talked to you about whether it
would be possible to work with SEPTA to

388
00:30:48,159 --> 00:30:57,600
see if we can install some sort of
temporary bike ramp um in the pedestrian

389
00:30:53,919 --> 00:31:04,240
tunnel at that station. Um, I've I've
also seen kind of these uh handicap

390
00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:10,720
accessible ramps, the ADA accessible
ramps. Um, and I think I've seen them at

391
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:15,679
museums where they have old
infrastructure where you can fold them

392
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:20,240
away or you can blow them out. So I
would definitely like to explore what we

393
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:25,679
can do at that pedestrian tunnel to see
if we can provide for that access for

394
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:31,039
for both mobility impaired people and
for crisis folks.

395
00:31:27,679 --> 00:31:36,000
» And just to touch on that, so I did um
start reaching out to some folks at

396
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:42,720
SEPTA just to get some sense of that. So
haven't yet gotten through to the person

397
00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:48,240
I need to talk to. Um but
uh the the fora has been made to get

398
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:53,120
some information there. Um and then our
engineer is also going to be taking a

399
00:31:50,080 --> 00:32:00,320
look um to see
if it would even be kind of technically

400
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:04,000
feasible to put in, you know, ramps
because SEPTA is not a partner in this

401
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:10,159
project. So they aren't actually part of
the the scope here. So [snorts] to bring

402
00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:15,360
in another agency um as part of the
official project scope could be

403
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:19,440
problematic. Um but if there's a way
that we could work with them kind of as

404
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:24,320
a one-off. Um but we are taking a look
at the the actual design of the the

405
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:26,399
tunnel to see if it would be technically
feasible because you have to have

406
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:33,039
certain
>> clearances and the tunnel is pretty

407
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:38,320
» short and narrow and it's deep. So the
height I don't see. So the the the the

408
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:42,480
slope that you need to get because of
how steep the stairs are and the height

409
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,840
of the tunnel, it might not be possible
because it's just technically

410
00:32:43,679 --> 00:32:50,440
infeasible. But we are looking into it
to try to exhaust all of our

411
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,440
possibilities.

412
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,559
» That was my question. It looks like the
the Zoom is down.

413
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,360
» Yeah, we lost the internet.
>> Okay,

414
00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:04,559
» let's pause for a second.
>> Backup is roll.

415
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,559
Okay. Nonetheless, it goes right.
>> Yeah.

416
00:33:07,679 --> 00:33:15,760
» So, we're just going to wait a second.
See if we can get back online

417
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:20,447
in a prompt fashion.
>> Good news is the audio seems to be

418
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,447
fixed. [laughter]

419
00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:26,998
» In order to save the audio, it was
necessary to destroy it. Yeah. Okay.

420
00:33:24,978 --> 00:33:26,998
[snorts]

421
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:38,039
And we are also looking into different
>> internet service provider as well. So

422
00:33:44,628 --> 00:33:46,648
[clears throat]

423
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,240
» how long ago did that go down? I
listening. [clears throat]

424
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,679
» It just
>> It just did.

425
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,000
I think that we're be having a whole
long conversation.

426
00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:02,320
» Yeah.
>> Recording in progress.

427
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,000
» Okay.
>> Back in

428
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,000
» sound.

429
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:18,879
The recording and the Zoom are two
different things.

430
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:22,079
» Still got to get the audio the video.
>> Yeah, we're in. I'm just

431
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:26,560
» Okay. So, we're live again. All right.
Thanks. Uh, we are proceeding. Uh, we

432
00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:29,440
paused while the technical difficulties
were going, so we're proceeding again.

433
00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:32,800
Michael,
>> yeah, I guess I had a lot of similar

434
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:37,919
questions like about, you know, the ramp
and and other things of that nature. Um

435
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:42,480
the
I mean it's this is obviously really

436
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,639
tough cuz no one wants to like we know
we have residents that have mobility

437
00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:52,000
issues on the southside and no one wants
to be put in the position of having to

438
00:34:49,839 --> 00:34:56,879
take that offline for a period of time
but the the just the totality of the

439
00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:01,680
information set that we're dealing with
um

440
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:08,000
does predispose me to to option three.
Um the I'm not sure the um I'm not a

441
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:14,640
lawyer, but I'm not sure that kind of
like trying to to to

442
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:19,440
have Walco spend time jocking with the
contractor and putting us in like an

443
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:26,160
adversarial stance for a couple weeks
makes total sense to me individually. Um

444
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:31,359
the and then I also thought there's like
time sensitivity to this. So if we don't

445
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:36,480
take action, we're effectively taking a
action, right? So if we if we take no

446
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:42,400
action, we are choosing option one. Is
that correct?

447
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:47,680
» Yes, option one is happening more or
less without

448
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:50,560
anyone taking proactive decision making
because that is the way that this

449
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:56,880
project can proceed.
>> Sure. So So we do not we are making a

450
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:01,280
request of the contractor. We are not
telling the contractor what to do. The

451
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,800
contractor has a lot of power to make
this project happen according to the

452
00:36:03,359 --> 00:36:08,560
terms that they signed.
>> Right. So,

453
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:12,000
» but I just wanted to clarify that like
contractor is actually

454
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:14,720
» if we don't make a choice ultimately the
contractor will make a choice.

455
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,520
» Right. Right.
>> So, yeah, just with

456
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:22,800
» and that choice will be number one.
>> Yeah. So, I spent a lot of time kind of

457
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:28,960
thinking through those different pieces.
And I don't, you know, I don't feel

458
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:33,839
particularly great about uh removing the
the pedestrian multimodal access for

459
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:38,400
that period of time, but just the
totality of all these items predisposes

460
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:43,839
me to options, right?
>> We we didn't even talk about that end of

461
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:50,640
the street. you know, actually opening
it up much earlier solves the end of

462
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:54,079
Havford health and safety issue, you
know, which is really significant. We

463
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:59,680
haven't even mentioned that, but that's
actually a collateral benefit.

464
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:02,160
» So, I would say regardless of
checking on the contract and the

465
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:07,280
numbers, I would still pick option
three. I don't need to repeat all the

466
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:11,520
concerns that you say, but um I actually
have confidence that our our neighbors

467
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:16,000
will show up and there will be a
communitydriven shuttle organized by our

468
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,800
residents, you know, in collaboration
with the burrow because we all care

469
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:24,119
about getting our neighbors the
accessibility that they need. So, I

470
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,119
support option three.

471
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,280
» Excuse me. I agree with option three as
well. um agree with the concerns that

472
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:33,599
have been brought up and and the reasons
why um option three seems like the the

473
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,599
best of the options available at this
time.

474
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:44,720
» I'm full support for option three. Um
there's a note in here about admin staff

475
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:47,839
basically having the same amount of
workload. Am I reading that right? I'm

476
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:52,079
I'm wondering if I'm wondering if
there's additional workload for you all

477
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:58,560
because like maybe the communications
are higher at the start and questions

478
00:37:54,400 --> 00:38:05,359
and whatever else they're going to do.
Obviously, if we do pivot on the design

479
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:09,599
of the plan um and um eliminating the
pedestrian access, so if we proceed with

480
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:14,480
option three, then yes, we will want to
certainly message this to the community

481
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,839
um to ensure that everyone understands
what decision has been made, why it's

482
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:23,680
been made, and the impacts that this
will have. Um but we we would be

483
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:28,240
messaging and communicating any
construction activities regardless. So,

484
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,800
this may add some additional work kind
of upfront with the initial kind of

485
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:39,920
change and and getting that word out.
Um, but I don't foresee that uh that

486
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:45,800
this would create enough of an
administrative burden that we would

487
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,800
recommend against it.

488
00:38:45,839 --> 00:38:53,200
» Yeah, I'm also generally in favor of
option three. I think that the the

489
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:58,720
amount of time saved
for the project is just so so large that

490
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:04,560
it is,
you know, in addition to the the the

491
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:09,280
cost savings, it's hard. I mean, I value
the pedestrian access and the bicycle

492
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:13,119
access. I think it is important, but
you know, there are about 10 times as

493
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:19,400
many cars using that bridge as
pedestrians on a general day. So, we

494
00:39:15,359 --> 00:39:19,400
have to weigh both of these factors.

495
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:27,119
I'm not happy about having to make this
decision, but I think that that is the

496
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:30,960
right decision. Um,
moving ahead with option three.

497
00:39:29,359 --> 00:39:35,760
» I'm not convinced we wouldn't have made
that decision to begin with.

498
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,040
» If it had been offered to us when we
were designing this bridge, we would

499
00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:44,480
have had the same qualms, but ultimately
I think we would have

500
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:50,560
» we may well have made that choice.
Can I ask um if we express our

501
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:56,880
preference for a change for option 3U uh
will the contract change with with the

502
00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:05,200
contractor will or will they still be
held to the July 2029 completion date?

503
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:11,520
» So the project agreement has the July
2029 as the ultimate project completion

504
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:14,000
date um regardless of this pivot. Uh Mo,
do we have you back

505
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,520
» here?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm here.

506
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,920
» Um could
>> you need to speak up a little? We can't

507
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,880
I couldn't I could barely hear what you
said there.

508
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:26,800
» Uh could you speak to could you speak to
the question about any any impacts this

509
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:30,480
would have on the uh contract?
Um, I think, you know, we we kind of

510
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:35,760
hold the power here that if we wanted to
do a time reduction and hold the

511
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:40,960
contractor to this new date, um, we
would we can have that conversation with

512
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:47,760
PennDOT and and the contractor to
incentivize them to, you know, maintain

513
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:51,520
it. Um, that's one option or, you know,
it's certainly a conversation we can

514
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:56,079
have with them.
Yeah, I I I had expressed that to Fred

515
00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,000
that, you know, if we're buying if what
we're getting in exchange for this is an

516
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,359
accelerated time frame, I do want to
make sure that there are incentives

517
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,800
built into any contract addended that
says if they don't make those time

518
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:11,520
frames, you know, there's some
disincentives for them penalties, delay

519
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:15,119
penalties, etc. because it would be
terrible to buy this on the assumption

520
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:19,839
that we're getting accelerated time
frame and then we don't get it and

521
00:41:17,359 --> 00:41:24,400
there's no [laughter]
there's no recourse for that. So I would

522
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:30,079
definitely want to make sure that
there's some contractual incentives

523
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:33,960
slash disincentives to stick to these
anticipated time frames.

524
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,040
» We we can we can I guess talk about that
Maggie. Um

525
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:45,599
the the one thing I'll mention just for
transparency is you know we can we can

526
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:49,520
do a time reduction and and hold the
contractor to liquidated damages with

527
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:55,760
the new completion date. Um that's where
we're going to go. Um the contractor

528
00:41:51,839 --> 00:42:00,960
will still have um I guess there are
delays due to utilities for example that

529
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:04,160
hold up that that could potentially add
time but not significant amount of time

530
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:06,880
compared to the 11 months that we're
saving.

531
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,079
» Yeah.
All right. So, we did not have a public

532
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:14,000
comment period at the beginning of this
meeting. We are coming close to taking

533
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:18,800
an action here. So, I will at this point
allow public comment on this one issue.

534
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:23,040
Um, so if anybody in the room wishes to
make a public comment on this issue on

535
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:27,440
the the change to the bridge contract,
please let me know. And u Okay, don't

536
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:32,160
see anybody in the room. Does anybody
online wish to make a public comment

537
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:36,960
specifically about this bridge?
If so, uh, please raise your hand.

538
00:42:37,839 --> 00:42:43,700
Okay. I
don't see anybody online who wishes to

539
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:46,880
make a public comment. Okay.
[clears throat]

540
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:52,760
So, at this point, what they are looking
for is a request to change the contract.

541
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,920
» I'm not sure if it's a request to change
the contract, but a request to amend the

542
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:04,480
the scope. And then this would allow us
to proceed with um negotiating with all

543
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:09,839
of the project partners including
PennDOT, Amtrak, the contractor, TPD,

544
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:16,560
and the burrow um to proceed with
whatever changes we need to make uh to

545
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,960
effectuate the change to pivot to the
design scope from option three.

546
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,599
» Okay.
>> I move to do that. [laughter]

547
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,640
» Second.
>> Second.

548
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:29,119
» Second.
>> All right. Any further discussion? All

549
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:34,079
right. I will I will point out that we
recognize this is the first time the

550
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:38,880
public is hearing about this and
ordinarily I think we would like to give

551
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:44,079
residents more time to weigh in on
matters like this but as we said earlier

552
00:43:42,319 --> 00:43:47,839
this decision right now is slowing down
the bridge construction. So we feel as a

553
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:53,280
council that it is important for us to
take action even without taking as much

554
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:58,800
time to get public feedback as we
usually would because this project is

555
00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:02,560
too important. So ultimately
if you feel like you're you know you are

556
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:08,000
not being able to be heard on this we
apologize but this uh time is of the

557
00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:15,680
essence here. So
with that in mind uh the proposal is to

558
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:21,440
has just been enumerated to uh work with
option number three as stated in in the

559
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:25,440
memo. All those in favor?
Okay. So

560
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:28,560
so directed.
>> Okay. Okay,

561
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,079
» thanks a lot for being here.
>> Thank you.

562
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,400
» Thank you.
>> Appreciate it.

563
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:40,560
» All right. [laughter]
Next item is um 201.

564
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:47,359
So
uh first of all we have um received a

565
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:54,720
proposal for uh adaptive reuse of the
property um from Refugeia and the

566
00:44:50,800 --> 00:45:00,480
founder of Refugeia is here to uh
um do you want should we summarize the

567
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:04,640
proposal?
Okay Jeff, why don't you take a a few

568
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:11,280
minutes introduce yourself and and uh
walk us through your proposal. The

569
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:14,319
proposal is in the packet. Um, and uh,
yeah, go ahead. Make sure to speak up.

570
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,680
So,
>> sure.

571
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:21,920
» Good evening. Uh, my name is Jeff Ren. I
am the founder of Fugia Design. We're an

572
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:25,440
ecological landscape design build.
>> Can tell you have to speak up a bit or

573
00:45:23,839 --> 00:45:30,000
come close.
>> Yeah, maybe if you want to

574
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,240
» or we'll move a mic near you.
>> You want to come over here?

575
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,720
» No, there's one right there. Just come
up a little bit next to Chief Strings

576
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:38,640
mic. Thank you. All right, there you go.
>> Is that better?

577
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:45,119
» Hopefully.
>> Hopefully. Okay. Um and um I live also

578
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:50,240
on I'm a resident of Narbirth. I live on
Lance Twin Lane and we are currently uh

579
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:55,839
we have our place of operations in the
Price House on Meeting House and

580
00:45:53,040 --> 00:46:02,240
Montgomery Avenue. Um so we've been
looking for um uh an alternate location

581
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:07,599
to potentially move our business. I
would love to keep the business in

582
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:12,000
Narbirth. Uh as we know there are very
like limited uh [clears throat]

583
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:18,160
properties that may offer some [snorts]
of the uh the spatial requirements that

584
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:23,119
we need. Um and also our current place
of business is up for sale. Um and it

585
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:27,680
doesn't entirely work for us. We're
making it work. It doesn't entirely

586
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:33,680
work. So started looking for options and
I said so I kind of want to say first

587
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:42,079
and foremost I'm presenting also looking
for is this feasible that our needs and

588
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:47,680
what Seabine has to offer might like
match or they might not. Um because we

589
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:51,520
would need some parking lot space. Um
there's definitely an indoor space that

590
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:57,119
we could utilize for a design studio,
but the outdoor space we will need

591
00:46:53,920 --> 00:47:02,960
functional uh parking lot space um which
I have illustrated in in uh this

592
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:08,160
presentation, but also maybe it's just
the entrepreneurial brain in me and also

593
00:47:06,319 --> 00:47:14,800
um just living in the community kind of
always searching for catalysts to kind

594
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:20,640
of kind of um break the ice uh a little
bit for for our town to uh to to see

595
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:26,880
some of our potential
um uh and to ignite some community

596
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:34,000
uh [clears throat] spark, if you will. I
think the Sine Property offers that. Um

597
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:38,240
uh or potentially offers that. Um, so
I've put together

598
00:47:36,319 --> 00:47:43,119
um
a presentation that has like kind of a a

599
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:49,440
potential new footprint that we're
thinking about for the property that

600
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:53,440
shows place of operations for us and
also some of the potential adaptive

601
00:47:51,280 --> 00:48:00,480
reuse for the space that's currently
available that is not um the daycare,

602
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:07,440
the wonders, which is the they they take
up the bulk of the twotory

603
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:12,720
section of of the property. Um but
currently um [clears throat] most of the

604
00:48:09,359 --> 00:48:18,000
rest of the property is um either
occupied by Lavner camps although they

605
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:21,760
no longer and Maggie maybe you could
correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure

606
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:26,240
where they are in their lease like
they're they have a lease but they're

607
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:29,839
not occupying space. Is that correct?
>> The lavender.

608
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:37,040
» Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Okay.
Um so this kind of illustrates you'll

609
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:42,720
see um the parking lot space in the back
um an area that's currently um Lavender

610
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:46,960
Camps, one of their office spaces
highlighted in yellow there. And then we

611
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:52,640
were looking at the cafeteria space
which is in orange as this kind of great

612
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:58,960
glass in kind of mid-century
public school room that could be great

613
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:03,920
community event space. Um, and there's
also the old um, principal's office,

614
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:07,359
which is in highlighted in purple there,
which is already kind of divvied up into

615
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:12,640
these really kind of oddly shaped rooms
and hallways. Um, that actually would

616
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:17,200
work quite well for um, artist studios
or maker studios. So, it just got my

617
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:20,880
brain started kind of cranking on this
and thinking about, well, what are some

618
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:25,680
other things that could potentially be
done um to the [clears throat] property

619
00:49:23,839 --> 00:49:32,240
in addition to us being potential
long-term tenants, which we would love

620
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:37,599
to explore the auction. Um, in addition,
one of the first things that we noticed

621
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:43,559
when we kind of tour the property is
that the parking lot is massive. I think

622
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:46,880
it takes up almost an acre.
>> [clears throat]

623
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:53,599
» Um, and it has like a few really puny
storm water drains in it. So, it's

624
00:49:49,119 --> 00:50:00,559
definitely it has uh a lot of storm
water problems. Um, and the idea of

625
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:07,920
thinking about more of an ecological
campus potentially for the state vine

626
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:12,559
property would allow us to address
um upgrades to the property in an

627
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:17,280
ecologically focused manner that could
also be a way that we we use it almost

628
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:23,760
as like a display landscape. Something
that can still it remains functional for

629
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:29,200
the public. Uh it allows us to run our
business out of this space, but also it

630
00:50:27,359 --> 00:50:34,000
allows us to use it as a sync
potentially for um MS4 credits, which

631
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:39,119
are being updated this year in draft
form. They're focusing less on

632
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:43,839
pollutants and more on volume, which is
a huge difference for the for for

633
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:47,839
burough consideration and storm water
management. And it's a huge upgrade

634
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:52,720
because a lot of the work that we do as
a as a business is dealing with volume

635
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:58,800
of storm water. It's less about
pollutants, more about volume. Um so I

636
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:05,119
have highlighted Maggie, I don't know if
you could go just to to show some of the

637
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:08,319
um inspiration photos. This
>> is that in the same document.

638
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,960
» It is. So all if you just kind of
continue to scroll.

639
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:19,520
So this well actually this would zoom in
to kind of show more of like the

640
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:27,280
footprint that we'd be
looking to have in the back side of the

641
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:32,000
parking lot. So um currently there are
there's a lot of open spaces. Some

642
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:38,800
people rent spaces for like RVs or work
trucks. There's um some space for um a

643
00:51:35,359 --> 00:51:42,160
little a community garden. I think some
of the plots are being used. A lot of

644
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:47,119
them aren't anymore. who are looking at
an option to kind of bring them out into

645
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:52,160
a more accessible space. Um, but our
plan would would allow for there to

646
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:59,280
still be 47 available
spots for the public and we would take

647
00:51:55,359 --> 00:52:05,520
24 of them during weekdays
and they would be back in use for the

648
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:10,079
for the public at night and on weekends.
So, it's a total of 71 spaces would

649
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:13,280
still be available. Um, and we're just
really kind of, and maybe I'm kind of

650
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:18,240
like ping ponging back and forth here a
little bit, but the idea is like how can

651
00:52:15,839 --> 00:52:24,800
we how can we connect this space? How
can we adaptively reuse the public

652
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:32,000
school connected to the park so that the
park becomes a more utilized park. Um,

653
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:36,559
by by thinking about this as more of
like a campus that can be community

654
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:42,240
focused, it allows us to start thinking
about how we can connect the green space

655
00:52:39,839 --> 00:52:47,040
and the buildings in a way that they
become

656
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:51,599
uh, you know, more used by the public in
a way that I I don't know has been

657
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:57,441
explored quite in this in this way
before. Um, and still offers revenue

658
00:52:54,640 --> 00:53:03,480
opportunities for the burrow. Um
[clears throat]

659
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,480
um if you could scroll down.

660
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,960
Our business isn't new to working in
public spaces. So these are just some

661
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:19,520
kind of inspiration photos from work
that we did at the Media Upper Proidence

662
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:25,200
Public Library. And this is a a
demonstration storm water management

663
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:30,319
system that we put outside of a barren
landscape on the on the side of the uh

664
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:37,680
on the side of the library which was it
had um just they post construction a

665
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:43,839
bunch of lawn and highly compacted soils
and nobody used it, no one walked near

666
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:47,200
it. Um, so we we took the opportunity to
create an educational space in there

667
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:52,462
that also functioned as a storm water
management system. And the same type of

668
00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:56,960
potential that we did here could be
[clears throat] done at Safeine. Um,

669
00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:02,880
I've been speaking extensively with
Moren McGee from the Lower Marine

670
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:08,160
Conservancy. They're very interested in
in getting involved in a project like

671
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:13,839
this where they could help fund and and
help tackle the storm water issues in

672
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:20,079
place and also create educ an
educational landscape and something

673
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:24,240
that's also a functional landscape. Um
so these are just some inspiration

674
00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:29,040
photos to kind of show how we can kind
of reimagine that space. Um, and also

675
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,160
think about the flow of traffic through
that space as something that feels far

676
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:36,400
more immersive, something that invites
you into the property rather than just

677
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:41,599
walking by it. Um, and brings people
into the park.

678
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:47,520
Um, if you don't mind scrolling a little
further, you'll see how like zoom out a

679
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:50,640
little bit. It really becomes even we
even took care of like putting plants

680
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:57,520
into the hellst strip along the
sidewalk. So, you're you're kind of

681
00:54:53,200 --> 00:55:02,319
drawn into the space. Um, and there's a
uh the media school is like just a few

682
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:06,319
blocks down. So, kids travel down the
street to get to school and they all cut

683
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:11,520
through and go through the landscape to
get there, which is really cool. That

684
00:55:07,839 --> 00:55:17,040
was the intention. Um, if you don't mind
continuing to scroll. Um,

685
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:20,160
I like the idea of thinking about this
potentially and maybe thinking about it

686
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:26,000
because it's a school like thinking
about a campus, but um, this is a

687
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:31,680
picture of Evergreen Brick Works, which
is a um, it's a former factory that was

688
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:36,640
converted into an environmental center
in Toronto, Canada. They do a lot of

689
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:41,359
community programming. Um, and they were
able to kind of take this like desolate

690
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:47,359
space. I think it also had like a
functional um, quarry on it and they do

691
00:55:44,319 --> 00:55:53,440
lots of um, community- based programming
in it. And if you go onto their website,

692
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:57,280
there is links that I shared in the
presentation so you can go in and and

693
00:55:56,079 --> 00:56:02,000
learn more about them as an
organization. But they they facilitate a

694
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:06,000
lot of community planning. Um, they're a
really cool organization, but I just

695
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:09,280
like the way that they kind of present
themselves, and I like, if you can, you

696
00:56:07,839 --> 00:56:15,680
can see before and after pictures on
their website. And we were also inspired

697
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:20,319
by the Bach building in downtown
Philadelphia. It's a form of occasional

698
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:24,400
high school that has been converted into
like artist studios. I think there's I'm

699
00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:29,920
not suggesting that we have like some
people know it's popular for a bar. Not

700
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:34,559
considering the bar part of this, but it
is used for um community space. There's

701
00:56:32,319 --> 00:56:38,960
a there's a music venue inside of there
or performance venue. There's artist

702
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:42,160
studios. A lot of this infrastructure
already exists in the school. Mhm.

703
00:56:42,109 --> 00:56:48,160
[clears throat]
>> Um and the other thing that we wanted to

704
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:52,559
acknowledge is that we understand that
this is um you know, one of the reasons

705
00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:58,319
that there's there's been a lot of
conversation about different uses for

706
00:56:55,040 --> 00:57:01,359
this property has to do with um that
it's not really much of revenue

707
00:56:59,839 --> 00:57:07,680
generator right now and there's a lot of
deferred maintenance. So, um I'm not an

708
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:12,240
expert at print right now, but thought
about this through the lens of okay, how

709
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:18,400
can we think about the potential for
something like this and also not

710
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:25,640
overlook the challenge of funding
something like this. So, if you don't

711
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,640
mind scrolling up a little further.

712
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:32,000
Oh, oh, I should mention too, so in the
parking lot, sorry, forgot about this.

713
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:36,799
Um, [clears throat] so Manny on Timber,
where we used to rent some space from,

714
00:57:34,319 --> 00:57:40,880
they've done a uh a deep paving effort
as part of managing the storm water

715
00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:46,400
management on this like massive parking
lot. Um, and they also have a couple of

716
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:54,079
um companies in there, a landscape
company, um, is one of them. Um, they've

717
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:59,760
done public art to kind of contain like
that's a that's just a cargo container

718
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:05,119
that they put public art on. And that's
one of our ideas is to kind of use

719
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:09,680
potentially like um quar containers like
that to to delineate our space with

720
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:14,319
potentially putting some of the um
public garden spaces on the outside so

721
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:19,359
that there's like a nice like it's an
inviting kind like we we create

722
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:23,599
something that looks looks nice and and
so you're not seeing our equipment and

723
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:27,760
also for safety but something that we
could invite um some public art

724
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:32,559
opportunities. They've also taken the
opportunity by depaving

725
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:39,040
big sections of the parking lot. They've
built retaining walls out of the old um

726
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:42,640
pavement and created this little micro
forest inside of it.

727
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:46,480
» So, if you if you don't mind scrolling
up a little further, you can see how you

728
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:51,200
kind of walk through. There's a couple
of entrance ways and then they have

729
00:58:48,559 --> 00:58:54,799
these um sitting areas in there. So, I I
put this in more just to kind of say

730
00:58:52,720 --> 00:59:00,640
like, look, there's there's a lot you
can do with with a 1 acre parking lot.

731
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:06,480
Um, and it could it could be a place of
uh business for us, but also something

732
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:12,799
that we make better use of, and also it
it has the potential to be um, you know,

733
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:19,599
we could get MS4 credits out of it as
well, which is another huge plus. Um, so

734
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:26,400
if you don't mind scrolling again. Um,
so I I put some work into this. Uh, I

735
00:59:23,839 --> 00:59:33,359
basically took the uh deferred
maintenance report that was put out in

736
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:38,400
um I think it was 2022. I'm I'm not 100%
sure. I I shared a secondary PDF that is

737
00:59:36,319 --> 00:59:43,920
just an excerpt of that particular
document and it lists all the deferred

738
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:47,839
maintenance for the property and
created kind of a top level set of um

739
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:52,319
potential grant opportunities and
funding partners which is here in this

740
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:57,920
on this page of the document. And then
fur like further down I broke down every

741
00:59:56,079 --> 01:00:03,440
section of the property into the
deferred maintenance potential more

742
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:07,520
ecological or sustainable alternatives
that [snorts] grants could be written

743
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:11,920
for that funding. There's funding
opportunities around doing a lot of the

744
01:00:09,359 --> 01:00:18,240
infrastructure upgrades that were
mentioned. Um but I don't think we would

745
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:22,319
have the time nor do I have I think the
brain power to dive into like lots of

746
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:28,160
specifics on that. And that can be for
another time potentially if this idea is

747
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:33,119
of interest. Um, but I did want to just
go through that and create that gesture.

748
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,640
Um, just to show that there's a lot of
potential behind this. As soon as you

749
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:41,280
kind of change the lens, you kind of
reframe the intent of the property.

750
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:47,760
Funding opportunities and really
creative ones open up. Um, so I like the

751
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:55,280
idea of kind of creating this umbrella
like ecological campus idea and then it

752
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:59,680
starts to um it it creates a set of it's
it's mission based. It creates a set of

753
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:04,240
tenants that you start to figure out how
to slide in brand opportunities, other

754
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:09,040
potential um not just funding partners,
but maybe there's other um organizations

755
01:01:06,319 --> 01:01:13,760
that are interested in renting space.
How can the community start taking

756
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:18,960
advantage of this? um and utilizing the
space for um symposiums, different

757
01:01:16,559 --> 01:01:24,160
events that could be hosted. Um so I did
make a list of some of those potentials

758
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:29,657
in my write up and we really want to
also make sure and again I'm presenting

759
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:33,520
it council meeting tonight but
[clears throat] that a next step if

760
01:01:31,359 --> 01:01:37,440
there's interest in this would be
immediately engaging the different like

761
01:01:36,319 --> 01:01:41,359
community members and community
organizations. We're not blind to the

762
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:48,559
fact that this is something that if it's
going to be community kind of centered

763
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:53,839
that we need everyone's voices kind of
to to see the full potential. We want to

764
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:59,839
open that up and see see where we can
kind of explore this idea further. Um,

765
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:04,240
and we also know it's there's there's a
lot of contention around the use or the

766
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:09,680
proposed uses for the property. And so
don't want to, you know, not acknowledge

767
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:14,640
that that that is a situation and and
hope that this might be again another

768
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:19,119
catalyst for a conversation that gets us
past that or or allows us to explore

769
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:24,640
other alternatives that may have not
been presented yet. Um, but I do think

770
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:29,520
it is important to go, if you don't
mind, just go back to that document for

771
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:33,440
just a second.
Um,

772
01:02:31,359 --> 01:02:39,520
and I apologize. I don't remember on
what page

773
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:43,119
it was. Let me see on my end here.
I wasn't sure if I was going to be able

774
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:46,799
to present or not. So, I I put this into
like a document that people could just

775
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:53,200
review. So, I apologize that it's not
like in slides. Yes. So, this right here

776
01:02:51,359 --> 01:02:58,960
is just kind of like these are like the
more top level um

777
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:06,000
grants that are available and and
potential funding partners that I

778
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:10,880
reviewed with Moren as just a kind of
somebody else to kind of help like think

779
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:17,280
through like these are these are folks
that we work with on a more regular

780
01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:23,119
basis to to fund um other public facing
projects. Um, and so there really is a

781
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:26,319
lot of potential. I I would feel kind of
foolish to come here tonight and and

782
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:32,160
present something that I didn't think
had potential or had these opportunities

783
01:03:28,559 --> 01:03:36,079
to to to also find ways that the burrow
doesn't necessarily need to invest their

784
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:41,839
own money in trying to make something to
this this like this come to fruition. um

785
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:46,319
refugeia on our own wouldn't be able to
like help manage the full like

786
01:03:45,244 --> 01:03:52,799
[clears throat]
like the grant writing etc. But we would

787
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:59,039
we'd want to be involved in helping with
the the vision and maybe

788
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:03,440
organizing a a group that helps kind of
take the next steps um or even in

789
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:08,240
helping the burough. I I know one of the
common practices is that if there's

790
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:11,520
grant writing that needs to happen that
we're we're kind of writing that

791
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:15,920
administration,
uh we're writing part-time part-time

792
01:04:13,599 --> 01:04:21,599
positions into those grants so that
we're thinking about how to actually get

793
01:04:18,319 --> 01:04:27,119
the the folks in place to help make them
happen. Um, so on your own time you can

794
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:33,119
kind of like look through what I wrote
in wrote up in in a little bit more

795
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:37,599
detail. But um it's been pretty cool
just and I can say to kind of to the

796
01:04:35,359 --> 01:04:42,799
community that I I've done I've had the
opportunity to speak nationally at at

797
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:49,839
various events kind of presenting the
work that we do. And um we have around

798
01:04:46,559 --> 01:04:54,079
150 uh properties in our ecological
greenway that are in within a 5 mile

799
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:59,680
radius of the building we're sitting in
right now. And [clears throat] when I

800
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:05,359
present at at national conferences, it
blows people's minds to see. And I have

801
01:05:02,559 --> 01:05:11,200
this little map that's on our website uh
showing all of these um kind of like

802
01:05:09,119 --> 01:05:16,880
like their native landscapes that we've
helped uh [clears throat] homeowners in

803
01:05:13,359 --> 01:05:22,079
particular do. But what we also feature
is all of the properties that other home

804
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:26,079
gardeners and other public spaces have
kind of taken on in their own. and we're

805
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:32,240
kind of like somewhat secretly
recognized as being this kind of like

806
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:36,480
we're we're we're seen as as like uh the
sea change of this comic. So, it's

807
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:43,039
pretty cool that in our we're a little
bit of an incubator in our area for um

808
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:46,559
for a national an international trend
that that's well, I wouldn't even call

809
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:52,480
it a trend anymore. It's it's a it's a
crop movement. Um and the landscape like

810
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:56,160
industry and gardening is heading in
this direction. It's one of the reasons

811
01:05:54,000 --> 01:06:00,880
that uh we do so much storm water work
is because we consider our landscapes

812
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:05,760
functional. I mean they're doing
something. They're not just pretty to

813
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:10,640
look at, but they are also the plants
have functionality. They're helping

814
01:06:07,839 --> 01:06:14,559
manage storm water. They're creating um
wildlife habitat and recreating wildlife

815
01:06:12,799 --> 01:06:20,400
habitat. We're putting natural systems
back in place in very small properties

816
01:06:17,039 --> 01:06:24,319
normally. But when you add up the impact
of all of those postage stamp

817
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:29,039
properties, you start to see major
impact. And we've we've seen like Anwin

818
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:33,280
Road is one of the streets we have five
or six properties on. A bunch of

819
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:37,520
neighbors have al also done
um a lot of work similar to ours and

820
01:06:35,839 --> 01:06:44,559
we've been able to start mitigating
people's basement flooding. So over

821
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:49,280
time, more lawns and starting
um put more energy in what can we do on

822
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:56,559
our own properties. We we see that
payoff. Um so with that, I'll [snorts]

823
01:06:53,039 --> 01:07:00,640
uh I'll conclude, but uh I'm open if
anyone has any any questions.

824
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:05,359
» Sure. I'm just going to start around the
table. I will say that you know walking

825
01:07:02,319 --> 01:07:09,599
around the bur routinely encounter you
know your signs and the the gardens

826
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:15,200
you've worked on. I think we we all um
are familiar with the the and the

827
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:20,960
product and I think it's a it's a great
asset um to burn. Uh right now just want

828
01:07:18,799 --> 01:07:25,760
to note we are is a discussion item. We
are not going to take any action after

829
01:07:22,559 --> 01:07:30,559
this but questions for or comments.
>> Yeah, I mean I see your work everywhere

830
01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:35,200
and I'm I'm very impressed by it. Um,
and I really thank you for bringing your

831
01:07:33,039 --> 01:07:40,480
creative ideas to the table and I think
it's always healthy when community is

832
01:07:37,839 --> 01:07:45,599
coming to us with ideas. Um, but I do
want to go back to something that we had

833
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:53,119
agreed on as council uh last year which
was that um any plan for this particular

834
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:58,720
site needs to uh relieve the burrow of
the the cost and responsibility of the

835
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:04,319
the buildings. And [clears throat]
so other than preserving and expanding

836
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:11,119
the park space, I do think that was the
clearest consensus item on council that

837
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:16,239
that was a big goal for for that
particular site. And and I would say

838
01:08:14,319 --> 01:08:21,040
that was probably one of the the main
reasons we started that process in the

839
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:26,719
first place. So, um I think that's the
biggest piece that might be missing. I I

840
01:08:23,440 --> 01:08:31,679
recognize that there's um there's grant
opportunities, but also brands are not

841
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:39,359
guaranteed. They often require a
thorough match um and they're they also

842
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:45,679
require a lot of administrative time to
to explore to administer and all of

843
01:08:41,839 --> 01:08:51,440
that. Um, so
I think the the main issue that that I

844
01:08:49,199 --> 01:08:57,040
would have is uh that the burrow would
still be a landlord and we're trying to

845
01:08:54,239 --> 01:09:02,880
extricate the the burrow from that
position. I think there's a risk um in

846
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:08,319
having the burrow continuing to be a
commercial landlord. Um

847
01:09:06,159 --> 01:09:13,040
there's always the risk that commercial
tenant might leave. So then we're right

848
01:09:10,719 --> 01:09:17,199
back in the same position that we were
uh

849
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:21,920
where we started and then there's all
the millions of dollars of capital

850
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:28,000
improvements that are needed to bring
the building which you have gone

851
01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:34,960
through. Um but I do think that we're
looking for a plan that uh takes that

852
01:09:31,759 --> 01:09:41,440
risk and the cost um off of the bureau
and off of the burough taxpayers. Um so

853
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:45,920
I would I would say um
any any plan that we would need to look

854
01:09:43,839 --> 01:09:54,080
at would have to meet that minimum
requirement. So um and also I I do want

855
01:09:50,880 --> 01:10:00,000
to like as a creative myself um I come
from a design background. I appreciate

856
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:06,880
the the the concept of bringing artists
and makers. Um I know the box building

857
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:10,560
too. I've gone to several events. I
think it's a different economic model

858
01:10:08,719 --> 01:10:18,880
there though. I mean, it's in the middle
of a very dense area which um I will say

859
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:26,400
has like a lot of different diverse uh
price points for housing. Um and it's

860
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:30,640
that makes it possible. It also has the
you mentioned the black bar. That's part

861
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:35,840
of its financial model. That's that's
why the rents are so low and artists can

862
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:43,640
come in and occupy that building and
make it successful. So, um I don't think

863
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:43,640
that will translate so well in

864
01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:53,679
» I would love to put a block party.
Um thank you. Thank you so much for for

865
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:58,400
uh bringing this forward for putting
time and energy into it. Um

866
01:10:56,719 --> 01:11:01,440
we see like the fruits of your labor all
around actually.

867
01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:06,159
my neighbor across. Sorry to put you on
the spot, but I get to see the fruits of

868
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:10,640
your labor in Barb's uh front yard every
day. Um it's and it's it's really

869
01:11:09,199 --> 01:11:15,679
awesome and it's it's awesome to
actually have some local folks come

870
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:21,520
forward with uh with really like, you
know, creative ideas. Um, I think that,

871
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:25,840
so I'm going to I'm going to riff a
little bit on what Jean said, but I I

872
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:31,360
have um something that was also Kate
Brenley that I'll get to um at the end,

873
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:36,800
but I had a lot of like the
similar um kind of concerns which are

874
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:41,360
not you concerns. They're more so just
and you spoke to this about just kind of

875
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:44,000
like the needs um that we've had
approaching the site and kind of the

876
01:11:42,719 --> 01:11:49,440
thicket of it. One of the things that
we've heard from uh prior people who've

877
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:53,120
sat in the seats because the the the the
property has been discussed since before

878
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:59,360
our time as well. It's just the
difficulty of being able to maintain and

879
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:03,520
manage the site that our local
government is not a particularly good uh

880
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:09,199
commercial landlord. And that's part of
the that's been part of the difficulty

881
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:14,159
that got us to this kind of spot. Um I
you know uh I think that grant funding

882
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:19,440
our our old manager used to describe
grant funding as coupon bonds where um

883
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:25,840
they're good funding source um they're
not your overall kind of strategy for a

884
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:30,239
recurring um operational um or financial
situation which is I think what we have

885
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:34,960
there. And so some of the things that
we've discussed in the past, including

886
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:38,640
in December, um, and if folks are
listening online, they can go and we

887
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:44,080
have them listed on the Sabbine page
under the December 2025 links. Um, and

888
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:47,040
we hit a bunch of things and we kind of
like tried to pull together a lot of the

889
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:52,560
different items that have been discussed
through the engagement process and a lot

890
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:56,880
of the different needs. Um, and one of
the one of the main things was how do we

891
01:12:54,400 --> 01:13:02,239
figure out a way to simultaneously
maintain ownership of this property as a

892
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:06,880
key asset while also relieving the
bearer of some of those financial and

893
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:11,840
administrative and operational
um, uh, issues. Um, and that's been a

894
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:17,040
tricky thing to solve. I feel very
confident that we can solve that. I feel

895
01:13:14,239 --> 01:13:20,880
very confident that we can get um,
proposals in front of us that hit a

896
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:24,480
variety of different needs. Um, and I
also really appreciate you've elevated

897
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:29,440
kind of this other aspect of it that
hadn't kind of come up before. Um, but I

898
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:35,040
really appreciate the time and energy
you've given to that. And I went back to

899
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:39,199
um the uh document that we had discussed
and agreed upon. It was a different we

900
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:42,640
had a one different council member
different mayor at the time but the

901
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:49,520
there were six of us who were here and
went back to that document and um

902
01:13:45,679 --> 01:13:53,440
there's a portion of that that said I'm
just going to read from it um additional

903
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:57,440
consideration be given in proposals that
incorporate existing uses that serve the

904
01:13:55,360 --> 01:14:01,840
community publicly available community
space and/or park plan improvements or

905
01:13:59,679 --> 01:14:06,000
maintenance and I think at the time we
had we had specified it that way because

906
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:09,040
we were expecting
um that in addition to kind of the

907
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:14,960
anchor uses that we're in that that we
might have proposals that would allow us

908
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:18,400
to carry forward um incorporate existing
uses and serve the community and when

909
01:14:16,719 --> 01:14:23,440
we're kind of considering the site. Um
but you've raised another um you know

910
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:29,040
potential need that might be able to be
incorporated into that kind of component

911
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:32,960
of the of the of the plan set. Um so
that folks so that that would be out

912
01:14:30,719 --> 01:14:39,280
there. We could potentially put add this
to the letters of interest online if we

913
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:43,440
wanted to. We could um specify either um
space for small local existing

914
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:47,840
businesses or ecological based
businesses. We could kind of figure that

915
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:53,760
out. Um and then that would that along
with the letter being available online.

916
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:58,320
um would I think allow folks to come in
through that RFP process that we've been

917
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:03,199
envisioning would allow this kind of
space to be incorporated into this

918
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:07,120
broader kind of campuswide vision. Um
and I think would also put us the Vera

919
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:11,840
in a in a good position to have a lot of
these kind of like just the full

920
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:15,760
creativity. um and then channel it
through a like a standardized process

921
01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:20,000
because I think one of the things that
has given us difficulty in the past, one

922
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:24,640
of the things that I thought um the RFP
process was intended to resolve for was

923
01:15:22,239 --> 01:15:28,960
we would get kind of like popcorn type
ideas. And this is a great one cuz it's

924
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:34,960
coming from internally. Uh but I do
think that we should get back to a

925
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:39,040
standard um process and then at a policy
level we can kind of work through that

926
01:15:37,199 --> 01:15:42,719
process the way that we've been doing.
Um, but then it also puts our local

927
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:46,400
partners in a good position as well
because then they know what the steps

928
01:15:44,239 --> 01:15:50,159
are and everyone kind of has clarity.
Um, and then you know at what step to

929
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:54,640
kind of schedule your energies as well
cuz the last thing I want to do is be

930
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:58,480
like, "Oh, go do all of these things."
Oh, and then wait for this like we will

931
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:04,159
have everyone will have clarity on all
of that. And I think that that could um

932
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:07,520
kind of incorporate this into this
process that we've been discussing since

933
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:11,040
December and put us in a really
productive position together. So I

934
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:15,040
really appreciate um your time and
coming and raising this. And

935
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:20,480
» um yeah, it was one of the questions I
had for Maggie cuz I was like um and all

936
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:25,520
of these things make sense, right? Like
>> if I'm to be a little blunt, it's like

937
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:32,080
like waiting through waiting and I would
say maybe waiting through an RFP process

938
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:35,440
when we do need to move our business is
becomes a deal breaker

939
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:39,199
» for a business like ours in the
community or a potential deal breaker,

940
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:44,880
right? And that's not to apply any
pressure to say if you like this idea

941
01:16:42,159 --> 01:16:50,800
can we explore some other options or
does it just get digested into a larger

942
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:55,280
RFP process where our ideas it doesn't
just become adaptive reuse for housing

943
01:16:52,880 --> 01:17:02,400
but then it's this other idea of this
potential like a hub idea and then our

944
01:16:58,719 --> 01:17:07,280
we get but we kind of get taunted from
or or I I see what you're saying by it

945
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:11,920
becomes a popcorn idea but we want it to
be more than a popcorn idea. [snorts] Um

946
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:17,440
there's there's intellect there's like
some intellectual property. I'm sharing

947
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:21,440
a very top level concept. Um, and I
think there's more I I'm always a

948
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:26,800
believer that there's and I'm not asking
for exclusivity with this, but I think

949
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:30,800
sometimes like and I [clears throat]
understand why going through certain

950
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:37,600
processes are very important to follow
just for I know and I know it's it has

951
01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:41,280
to happen that way sometimes, but I I do
wonder like options to explore not

952
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:45,120
having
>> to like go through all that because I

953
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:49,360
just I don't quite I honestly don't know
that we'd be able to wait

954
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:55,760
however long it's going to be. I might
have to be out of the Price House in 2

955
01:17:52,960 --> 01:18:00,239
months. I don't know. So, and then I
would end up just like everybody else

956
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:04,159
like going to Ka Haken or somewhere and
we are looking at other properties. I've

957
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:08,159
I've spoken with uh [clears throat]
uh Laura Marian a few times like the

958
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:13,199
properties didn't quite add up but they
were keen and interested in this same

959
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:17,360
kind of model. Um, and also looking at
another property in Armore, but I'd

960
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:24,400
really like to keep I'd like to stay in
Arbor and I think a lot of people would

961
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:30,719
like to see us stay in Nar. And I think
that putting that energy

962
01:18:28,159 --> 01:18:36,320
behind like not just community members
but our businesses allows us to kind of

963
01:18:33,679 --> 01:18:42,719
like I I I think
there there's got to be some room for

964
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:48,239
like we have to search for catalysts to
kind of up like like we have a downtown

965
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,760
that's been sitting I know you guys have
a lot of challenges in front of you. we

966
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:56,880
have a downtown that's just been like
mostly vacant. How do we [snorts] spark

967
01:18:54,560 --> 01:19:01,760
that, right? And it and I don't know, we
haven't seen other people coming in and

968
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:08,159
doing things. I I haven't seen stuff
happen in years. Um and I think there's

969
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:12,000
an opportunity like finding even if that
property is a sitting duck right now to

970
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:17,360
do something with it allow like allows
for some energy to come in and start to

971
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:21,360
like for us to see more of our full
potential. Um, that's part of the

972
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:25,360
intention behind this and I know that's
not really something I can say in a

973
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:28,480
presentation, but
>> point well everybody.

974
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:31,679
» Well, it's a point well made because I I
thought we could have actually started

975
01:19:29,679 --> 01:19:34,560
that process like at the earlier the
year. There were logistical reasons why

976
01:19:33,199 --> 01:19:38,159
that didn't happen, but I would think
that if we were able to incorporate that

977
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:42,960
into an RFP process, I would advocate
for us to get started on that very

978
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:48,000
quickly so that we actually can resolve
some of these issues um through that

979
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:51,120
standard, pick up the pieces that like
right, one of the main themes we have is

980
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:55,440
being able to hit all of these varying
needs and and I think that we should get

981
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:59,040
started on that and pick up that work
that we've been doing, incorporate the

982
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:04,480
good bits of things, try to hit this
whole variety of needs and and actually

983
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:10,159
move forward rather than just be caught
in constant stasis which you know it's

984
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:15,520
been a little bit. [laughter] Um so
Michelle Paninopoulos um she and I were

985
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:19,120
elected about 9 years ago. She really
took the lead on Sabine and she said

986
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:24,080
somebody has this great idea that we've
never ever thought of. And I think

987
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:28,000
that's this um and when I thought when
that you were even considering Sine is

988
01:20:26,239 --> 01:20:33,120
when I got involved to say tell me what
you're thinking. And quite honestly,

989
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:36,719
this idea of an eco campus that hits so
many of the missions and values of our

990
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:42,560
community felt like it was worth
exploring and it was worth exploring

991
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:45,840
with the community. I I think um I
appreciate your timeline very much so

992
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:52,640
right is that you are going to have to
leave Nar. Um, I think it is worth our

993
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:57,440
time to explore given the connection and
the support of the conservancy and the

994
01:20:54,560 --> 01:21:01,679
county is for us to explore this a
little bit more seriously as some type

995
01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:05,679
of long-term lease that alleviates us
from that maintenance and being a

996
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:10,719
landlord because I do believe that it
hits not only the mission but community

997
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:15,760
feedback of stormwater community
expanding green space you know the

998
01:21:12,719 --> 01:21:19,520
opportunity to have a multigenerational
living learning and garden with New

999
01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:25,199
Horizons and Wonder Springs is something
that I think deeply reflects the values

1000
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:29,520
of our community. Um,
with that said,

1001
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:34,871
you know, not to sound crass, but I'm
also interested in keeping your business

1002
01:21:31,679 --> 01:21:39,360
privilege tax and your EIT in our
[clears throat and laughter]

1003
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:44,000
um would be a reality. I mean, if we if
we could get that um and really

1004
01:21:42,239 --> 01:21:47,120
seriously explore how the conservancy
and the county would leverage those

1005
01:21:45,199 --> 01:21:52,159
funds and do something that might be a
really great gift to our community,

1006
01:21:50,159 --> 01:21:57,600
I would love to see us seriously explore
this. And I suspect now with the the

1007
01:21:55,120 --> 01:22:01,760
adoption of fungi that we might even
have community donors coming through

1008
01:21:59,679 --> 01:22:09,320
wanting to really earmark funds in a way
that perhaps they had not in the past.

1009
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:09,320
» Okay. Thank you, Sarah.

1010
01:22:09,440 --> 01:22:15,920
» I'll be brief. This is really valuable.
Incredible. [clears throat] Thank you so

1011
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:19,920
much. And uh I agree. I think it's
something that we should be exploring uh

1012
01:22:18,159 --> 01:22:24,652
really carefully.
But I agree. Thank you.

1013
01:22:23,342 --> 01:22:27,440
[clears throat]
[snorts]

1014
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:32,639
» D you want to jump in? Okay.
>> Uh just a couple of thoughts. Um I'm not

1015
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:37,600
sure. I think we'd have to check with
Mr.

1016
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:42,560
But my recollection is that he
has advised that we would have to do

1017
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:47,280
this through an RFP
which I understand could be problematic.

1018
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:55,280
I would definitely I mean I love this
idea so I would certainly want RF RFP to

1019
01:22:51,040 --> 01:23:00,080
be inclusive enough to allow for you to
put that in. I understand that could

1020
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:05,920
create a but we may be and I do want to
check with John on this. we may be

1021
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:11,199
legally bound to have to put out an RFP.
Um I guess you [clears throat] know

1022
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,760
having having just spent the last 5
months dealing with storm water

1023
01:23:13,122 --> 01:23:19,520
[laughter]
issues you know one thing is our storm

1024
01:23:16,719 --> 01:23:24,400
water you know if that's going to be a
change in volume you know one thing that

1025
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:28,800
we have to think about is yes the cost
of all the deferred maintenance is

1026
01:23:26,719 --> 01:23:34,239
significant what do we balance against
that we balance against that the EIT

1027
01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:40,080
business privilege tax if we can do a
lot of storm water mitigation up on that

1028
01:23:37,440 --> 01:23:44,880
property and it,
you know, allows us then not to spend

1029
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:47,440
how much per how much are we paying per
bump out

1030
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:51,120
» different
as of now it's in the wrong watered

1031
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:56,560
the rules
>> completely in the whole state

1032
01:23:55,040 --> 01:24:00,480
into an unimpacted
>> unimpacted water

1033
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:04,239
if they change the rules.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we don't

1034
01:24:02,159 --> 01:24:08,480
know. And I guess the other changes
there,

1035
01:24:04,719 --> 01:24:14,320
» right? So, the other question is
you presuppose that we're maintaining

1036
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:18,080
the properties as is and maybe a
smaller,

1037
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:23,280
you know, maybe some of those properties
do come down the the and we don't have,

1038
01:24:21,679 --> 01:24:26,719
you know, you're you're assuming, hey,
let's make use of everything that's

1039
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:31,120
there. If we're concerned about the
deferred maintenance, especially on

1040
01:24:28,239 --> 01:24:35,840
certain portions of that property, the
alternative is not well, we don't keep

1041
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:41,280
all those properties. We tear them down
and we only maintain, you know, to start

1042
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:45,600
with at least
a smaller footprint of properties. Maybe

1043
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:49,199
in the future we get additional grant
funding and things like that. So, I'm

1044
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:54,000
just trying to think that through about
addressing Jean's concern, which we did

1045
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:57,440
say, you know, go, do we really want to
be a landlord? Do we want it? You know,

1046
01:24:55,840 --> 01:25:02,159
this is becoming more and more of a
burden as every year goes by. I think

1047
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:07,040
there are ways we can try to be as
creative as you're being in terms of how

1048
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:11,360
to mitigate those things by perhaps
looking at at some of those things. Um,

1049
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:15,840
and [clears throat] you know, the
deferred maintenance included the

1050
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:20,400
driveways and the pavement and all the
things that that you're pointing out

1051
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:24,800
that would need to be fixed
regardless. I think if we own the

1052
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:29,840
property, some of the ADA stuff is
probably on us regardless. Not

1053
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:36,080
» you unless we really do just pure
groundies. Um, so I I definitely think

1054
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:40,480
this is
I I'm excited by the idea. It meets the

1055
01:25:38,639 --> 01:25:47,280
educational component that some people
have contended is a necessary predicate

1056
01:25:43,199 --> 01:25:51,440
to you know the use future use of the
property. Whether we agree with that or

1057
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:56,239
not is a different issue. But um you
know I think we have to be

1058
01:25:54,080 --> 01:26:01,199
honest about that being a potential
issue out there and I think this

1059
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:04,880
adequately addresses that. You know it
definitely addresses a lot of the things

1060
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:09,360
you know we have these competing
objectives throughout always. You know

1061
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:13,600
it's funny we were at that fundraiser
last night and I was talking to somebody

1062
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:16,560
in uh Plymouth Township and I was like
what are your you know what are your

1063
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:22,159
issues? What are our issues? affordable
housing, land use, you know,

1064
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:27,199
preservation of open space. Um, you
know, it's those are definitely

1065
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:30,480
competing objectives. Um, and at the end
of the day, we have to make a policy

1066
01:26:28,719 --> 01:26:36,880
decision on that. But this is definitely
one of our objectives is is I I think

1067
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:45,040
this is consistent with sort of our
long-term environmental objectives that

1068
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:48,619
that we as Bur adopted.
So I I definitely think it's worth more

1069
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:51,840
exploration.
[snorts]

1070
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:58,800
» So yeah, I share the concern about the
RFP process and you know and um that

1071
01:26:56,480 --> 01:27:03,600
that's probably going to have to be how
we determine what what goes forward on

1072
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:08,800
this property is through an RFP because
you know it's what we've been uh

1073
01:27:07,615 --> 01:27:15,440
[clears throat] I feel like that's the
way to put it out and we may well be

1074
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:20,560
bound to that. Um, so just the other
part of it is it's always has been my

1075
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:26,400
hope that we could c stop being a
commercial landlord on this property

1076
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:31,199
like for good like for the long term. um
more than just

1077
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:36,800
10 or 20 years, you know, but for 100
years, you know, we should we should be

1078
01:27:33,440 --> 01:27:43,520
able to hopefully dispose of this
property in a way that's both beneficial

1079
01:27:39,440 --> 01:27:49,199
uh to the community and doesn't do so
much uh uh

1080
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:55,280
harm uh financially.
Uh we do currently uh get rental income

1081
01:27:53,679 --> 01:28:01,520
from this property that offsets our
taxes. It's not it's you know it's still

1082
01:27:58,480 --> 01:28:05,199
significant. Uh it is sitting but that's
only contingent because we're it's

1083
01:28:03,440 --> 01:28:09,120
sitting on top of a ton of deferred
maintenance. So we kind of have this

1084
01:28:06,480 --> 01:28:15,040
dual problem here is that you know every
year the risk gets higher. Uh you know

1085
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:19,440
the peril that something goes wrong on
that property is higher. you know, does

1086
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:27,360
it need a new roof? Does it need a new
boiler? Does something completely

1087
01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:32,400
unforeseen happen? That's on us. Um, so
and it's also the reason why I would

1088
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:38,159
favor an RFP for something
uh for an extended ground lease because

1089
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:42,880
it would enable the new user to take
over deferred maintenance.

1090
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:49,040
That's kind of my top priority on this.
Um, the presentation itself is

1091
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:55,679
beautiful. you know, I I love the idea
of more green space. Um,

1092
01:28:52,800 --> 01:29:01,920
and uh, as far as the storm water map,
while you were talking, I did pull up

1093
01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:06,880
the the MS4 map. MS4 only covers
uh, properties that drain into Delaware.

1094
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:10,800
And most that property is actually
split. Like there's the line goes right

1095
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:15,341
through the building. I'll pull it up
again. Um,

1096
01:29:13,679 --> 01:29:20,440
look
[clears throat] at

1097
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:20,440
» uh where is it?

1098
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:25,760
» Up here. Right here.
>> Yeah.

1099
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:31,360
» Yeah. So, uh, at the end of Elm Terrace,
there's a line that goes, it looks like

1100
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:36,400
it cuts off the very, um, eastern most
part of the building. Everything to the

1101
01:29:34,159 --> 01:29:40,880
west of that drains into the Delaware.
everything to the east of that which is

1102
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:47,360
the the edge of the building the parking
lot and what's currently say by park

1103
01:29:43,440 --> 01:29:51,600
drains into the Skookul River. Um and I
don't think that's likely to change. you

1104
01:29:49,199 --> 01:29:57,679
know, the the most we've heard about is
that we'd be responsible for retention

1105
01:29:55,520 --> 01:30:02,639
with a change in NS4 law, but not a
change of river because uh and I gather

1106
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:08,120
that's because the part of the school we
drain into is not titled.

1107
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,120
Um,

1108
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:11,800
so

1109
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:17,920
if there were going to be a storm water
solution on that property, it would have

1110
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:25,520
to take place where the building is now,
you know, on the Essex side. And I'm not

1111
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:30,800
sure how that would work. Um, it'd be
great if we could we could, you know,

1112
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:34,320
borrow
>> you know, it's so painful to have to put

1113
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:40,480
these to put these bumpouts in every
year and I just thinking about it. Okay,

1114
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:45,600
but no, that's an extra. Um,
okay. I'm sorry for the mish mash of

1115
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:50,880
concerns, but I echo everyone else's
enthusiasm for this kind of thing and

1116
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:57,760
also for the concerns raised about, you
know, the disposition of this property

1117
01:30:53,040 --> 01:31:01,280
in the very long term. And that's it's a
>> Yeah. So, Jeeoff, I think you'd make a

1118
01:30:59,679 --> 01:31:04,960
fantastic tenant for the property. I
think that the the vision you've laid

1119
01:31:02,639 --> 01:31:10,960
out for what you would do, you know, as
an as a as a tenant of the property, as

1120
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:16,560
as an occupant of the space is uh is
very attractive and it works well with

1121
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:20,800
the the park, you know, which we have
existing infrastructure. you'd be, you

1122
01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:24,800
know, transitioning from a park to a,
you know, a park-like environment with

1123
01:31:22,480 --> 01:31:30,159
your your storage area and back would,
you know, with all the plants would be,

1124
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:34,239
you know, it's a it transitions well
into into the, you know, the the actual

1125
01:31:32,159 --> 01:31:38,560
public park space.
I I agree that the the problem is the

1126
01:31:36,719 --> 01:31:43,520
the moving from what you would do as a
tenant to how the whole building would

1127
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:48,400
function and how the burrow would you
know how it would be managed, what would

1128
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:53,679
happen to the maintenance, the grants.
So I think that portion is is the

1129
01:31:50,639 --> 01:31:57,280
difficulty. I think that you know were
we looking to continue our current setup

1130
01:31:55,520 --> 01:32:02,480
where we're we're renting out the space
I think you'd be an ideal tenant for

1131
01:31:58,719 --> 01:32:07,920
that space. Um but we are looking beyond
the tenency and I think that's where

1132
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:13,600
you know more
we're looking for more certainty I think

1133
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:17,600
than than than what you've suggested. I
mean, it would be great if grants were

1134
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:23,520
able to cover
um a transformation like this, but I

1135
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:30,080
think that's
it's far from clear. And I I I don't

1136
01:32:28,639 --> 01:32:34,080
Yeah, I don't think we can commit at
this time to something where the burrow

1137
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:40,080
would be on the hook for the the
transformational costs. Uh I think if if

1138
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:44,400
it could be grant funded um you know
that would be a much more appealing

1139
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:48,080
prospect than the certainty of the
burrow you know having to having to

1140
01:32:46,159 --> 01:32:53,679
cover these costs. So those are my
concerns right now. I will note that the

1141
01:32:50,480 --> 01:33:00,719
lavender space is currently empty and uh
there is 18 months uh in the contract uh

1142
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:06,559
of teny before anything we have to give
any tenants 18 months of warning before

1143
01:33:03,440 --> 01:33:08,800
any changes to the property. that
[laughter]

1144
01:33:07,869 --> 01:33:13,520
[snorts]
uh you could apply to be a tenant if you

1145
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:18,080
wish to be handled by our uh primarily
by our our manager and our building

1146
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:22,960
manager not by council but it is a
possibility even outside of what happens

1147
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:26,960
here.
Okay. Um

1148
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:34,960
» can I just ask you a question? What if
we do an RFP and we say the preference

1149
01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:42,639
is you know to dispose of the property
and we don't get a bid for that

1150
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:48,480
like can we have as the alternative like
a less attractive alternative is you

1151
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:51,520
know a full tenant for the property.
>> Let's let's pause that because we're

1152
01:33:49,679 --> 01:33:56,320
going to have a an RFP discussion
logistics RFP in a minute. So any any

1153
01:33:53,600 --> 01:34:00,480
other comments about chess proposal?
>> I guess just a question. How long of a

1154
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:03,360
lease would you want to sign for?
>> I was I thought 5 to 10 years.

1155
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:08,000
» Yeah.
>> Uh or more. It it really depends. I mean

1156
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:13,120
I think if I could just summarize a
little bit. I think what I was thinking

1157
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:17,840
and presenting right was to kind of like
find this nucleus of like okay

1158
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:21,280
understanding the challenges of the
landlordship,

1159
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:25,280
the deferred maintenance, right? Like I
went through that section of the

1160
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:30,239
deferred maintenance and some of it
didn't freak me out at all. I mean it's

1161
01:34:27,440 --> 01:34:35,360
like you have companies that like want
to put advanced sustainable technology

1162
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:41,920
in places where people can see them at
work. Like that's one way to deal with

1163
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:45,920
the HBA systems or HVAC systems. Like
there's there's ways to kind of think

1164
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:50,560
about some of this that I don't even
know could potentially bypass grants. I

1165
01:34:48,239 --> 01:34:57,600
just I think there's like an opportunity
to um think through some of that middle

1166
01:34:54,639 --> 01:35:04,080
ground that is that's unclear or that is
kind of pushing for like want to see the

1167
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:08,800
burrow be able to like shed themselves
as responsibility. Um but I think

1168
01:35:06,719 --> 01:35:15,520
there's there's just opportunities to do
that and maybe I I you know grants was

1169
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:21,440
not the entirely right way to like look
at this. Um, I I think with the Bach

1170
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:26,719
building there was some some level of
like like um sweat equity for ownership.

1171
01:35:25,199 --> 01:35:31,600
And I'm not suggesting that I'm like
looking to own this property

1172
01:35:28,719 --> 01:35:37,600
necessarily, but there's probably
other ways to think about like funding

1173
01:35:35,199 --> 01:35:42,159
for some of this that
maybe is a little bit easier and more

1174
01:35:39,679 --> 01:35:50,560
streamlined than hoping for grants or
like look Yeah, I I I by by talking with

1175
01:35:45,199 --> 01:35:53,679
Moren from the consery and like I I and
thinking about I mean it's like a

1176
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:57,600
million something for deferred deferred
maintenance which is Not an

1177
01:35:55,360 --> 01:36:02,560
insignificant amount of money.
>> Significantly more than that.

1178
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:06,159
» Is it from like 2018 or
>> No, it's even bigger than that. It's

1179
01:36:04,239 --> 01:36:11,271
more like four or five.
>> Does anyone have an actual figure on it?

1180
01:36:08,639 --> 01:36:13,280
» We can get it. We have it somewhere.
[clears throat]

1181
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:15,120
» It's It's more than that. It's
>> okay.

1182
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:18,159
» I think it was a million to tear it
down.

1183
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:21,840
» A million just to tear the village down.
Yeah, those are the data estimate was a

1184
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:24,960
precoid estimate.
>> I think

1185
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:30,239
I think the last time we talked about
it's closer to two.

1186
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:37,520
» So the um the 2021 econult
report estimated that the total deferred

1187
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:39,920
maintenance is $4.7 million and this was
2021.

1188
01:36:38,480 --> 01:36:43,600
» That's why we're so worried about if it
was 1 million. Yeah, there's a lot of

1189
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:46,960
creative solutions. 4.7 million.
>> Is that preverb for post? That's

1190
01:36:45,440 --> 01:36:53,159
» I was going to say there have been we've
done some stuff

1191
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:53,159
» that that is um

1192
01:36:53,840 --> 01:37:00,159
» No, this is post this is post roof.
>> So, the burrow has replaced the roof and

1193
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:05,520
damaged sophets, gutters, and downspouts
for $600,000 in 2020. It has identified

1194
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:10,280
other deferred but necessary maintenance
totaling approximately $4.7 million.

1195
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:17,760
» All right. Well, thanks Jeeoff. And we
do have

1196
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:22,880
» You're welcome. Yep. And uh
uh next we're going to discuss the uh

1197
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:27,920
the RFP process and how it would work if
we decided to proceed along that route.

1198
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:31,199
So Maggie, if you want to talk to us
about logistics here.

1199
01:37:29,119 --> 01:37:36,320
» Sure. Um so I've been doing a little bit
of uh looking into what a process like

1200
01:37:34,239 --> 01:37:41,679
this might look like um if we were to
draft an RFP. Um so based on the

1201
01:37:39,440 --> 01:37:47,440
direction that council gave in December
of last year, um we were looking at

1202
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:52,480
adaptive reuse for this property,
looking at workforce housing and maybe

1203
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:57,280
some other supporting services uh to be
retained on the property and

1204
01:37:54,400 --> 01:38:03,280
preservation of the existing park space
um and general layout of the parking

1205
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:11,040
lots uh to service both of those uses.
Um the process uh if we were to proceed

1206
01:38:07,360 --> 01:38:17,119
then with the RFP is um either uh
in-house or with the aid of a consultant

1207
01:38:14,159 --> 01:38:22,960
to help us draft the RFP. We would
outline all of the necessary asks. We

1208
01:38:20,239 --> 01:38:29,360
would say what we're looking for. Um we
would give the scoring rubric that we

1209
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:37,040
would be evaluating responses against
and we would vet that out. um we would

1210
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:40,000
uh take that before the community for
some feedback before we actually issue

1211
01:38:38,480 --> 01:38:44,159
the RFP which is the direction that
we've given in the past is that there

1212
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:51,199
would be some public engagement. The RFP
would then be issued. We would then

1213
01:38:47,440 --> 01:38:54,639
receive responses and then again if we
were doing this in-house or if we have a

1214
01:38:52,800 --> 01:39:01,920
consultant we would then evaluate those
responses again using the pre-identified

1215
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:08,080
scoring matrix um as our benchmark for
how we evaluate these.

1216
01:39:05,119 --> 01:39:12,159
We would then make a decision if one of
those options is something that we would

1217
01:39:09,679 --> 01:39:16,480
want to proceed with. Um again highest
ranked based on that predetermined

1218
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:22,239
scoring matrix. um if we don't like any
of the options, we're not beholdened to

1219
01:39:18,159 --> 01:39:28,080
any of this. Um but otherwise, uh if if
the price is right, if the project is

1220
01:39:24,159 --> 01:39:33,679
right, um and the um the proposal hits
all of the marks, then we would engage

1221
01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:38,000
in a u you know, professional services
agreement with this developer and

1222
01:39:35,679 --> 01:39:42,159
proceed with getting all the necessary
um documents um orders and and whatever

1223
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:50,080
else we need to to proceed with that
work. um from the timeline of drafting

1224
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:56,239
the RFP to potentially awarding a
contract is about a six-month timeline

1225
01:39:53,119 --> 01:40:01,679
in a perfect world. Um so that would be
about a month to develop the RFP. Um

1226
01:39:59,199 --> 01:40:06,480
about a month for a public engagement
process, about a month then for this RFP

1227
01:40:04,719 --> 01:40:11,840
to live out in the world to receive
responses. So what do we have? 3 months.

1228
01:40:08,719 --> 01:40:17,280
Um, and then once we receive responses,
we want about a month to evaluate them.

1229
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:20,080
I feel like I'm missing a month in
there. [snorts]

1230
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:25,280
» Are we rewriting after the public
engagement? Are there any to put a time?

1231
01:40:23,119 --> 01:40:30,000
» It was a month. So, a month to write it,
a month for engagement,

1232
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:35,440
a month to put it out in the world, a
month to evaluate responses,

1233
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:38,159
» turn
um

1234
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:42,480
» and incorporate revisions based on
public engagement feedback.

1235
01:40:40,719 --> 01:40:49,840
» There's a month in there before.
>> Okay.

1236
01:40:44,480 --> 01:40:53,840
» Anyway, so about 6 months. Um and
uh Right. So, we'd be looking at a

1237
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:57,920
six-month process. So if we were to have
an RFP drafted

1238
01:40:56,239 --> 01:41:03,440
at the end of September, it would be 6
months from so figure October, November,

1239
01:41:01,119 --> 01:41:10,960
December, January, February, March. So
we'd be looking at a spring timeline for

1240
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:15,360
having um having a decision point before
us at that point and then we would be

1241
01:41:12,639 --> 01:41:21,280
able to compare apples to apples with
these proposals um if that was something

1242
01:41:18,159 --> 01:41:26,639
that you would want to proceed with.
Okay. Can I do the Fred and Maggie know

1243
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:30,800
this is coming before we even start down
this path? I think council has to say

1244
01:41:28,719 --> 01:41:35,679
what are we taking off our plate. You
know, we talked this time last year

1245
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:40,719
about TOD and recodification. I was very
vocal with let's get the recottification

1246
01:41:38,159 --> 01:41:45,360
done. Feel good about it. Ask the
questions of what is missing and why do

1247
01:41:42,719 --> 01:41:51,360
we need to reevaluate form based zoning.
Then start a COD process.

1248
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:55,600
um that has got so conflated and we're
off the timeline and there's questions

1249
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:59,360
and still concerns if we are going to
move forward with an RFP, what are we

1250
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:02,639
taking off Maggie's plate and how do we
answer to the community because you have

1251
01:42:00,719 --> 01:42:06,960
a bridge that now we're having problems
with and hopefully have a good solution.

1252
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:13,119
We have a downtown that has got vacant.
We've not had had any substantial

1253
01:42:08,960 --> 01:42:18,080
changes to the master park plans. Um
what are we taking off our staff's

1254
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:21,520
plate? Because as soon as we start this
process, even though we're going to have

1255
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:26,400
the consultants with the county, we
relied on that for this recotification

1256
01:42:24,159 --> 01:42:30,320
process and that did not save anybody
any time.

1257
01:42:28,239 --> 01:42:36,560
You know, we will be paralyzed with
right to nose and threats of litigation.

1258
01:42:33,199 --> 01:42:41,840
So what are we willing to take off
the plate and how do we address the

1259
01:42:39,679 --> 01:42:46,480
community when they say you're saying
that right now you need to be doing

1260
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:50,000
recodification to and save when we have
these other outstanding projects. So, I

1261
01:42:48,480 --> 01:42:55,199
I just want to kind of publicly voice
the same concern I did last year on

1262
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:58,480
being thoughtful, being rightsized for
our burrow, and being able to

1263
01:42:56,880 --> 01:43:01,600
demonstrate that we're listening to our
community and we're doing things that

1264
01:42:59,920 --> 01:43:04,639
they can see that are tangibly
increasing their quality of life.

1265
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:08,159
» So,
>> I want to pick up on that cuz that's a

1266
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:12,480
good point. Like I think one of and this
is one of the reasons why I felt

1267
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:16,000
strongly last year and still do that we
should hire that we should bring in

1268
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:20,880
expertise
um to manage the RFP process to be a

1269
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:25,040
single accountability point. I felt
strongly in December that that that we

1270
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:29,360
we shouldn't try to do it in-house, but
we should do that specifically because I

1271
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:32,719
thought that there was too much on your
plate and that we would actually have a

1272
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:38,400
single accountability person to both
help us um have the expertise to design

1273
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:43,520
the RFP in a way that puts us in a best
position going forward. Um then also

1274
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:48,400
helps us manage the engagement process.
I really appreciate the admiral optimism

1275
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:52,719
about the uh the six months. I don't
know that I carry optimism, but I really

1276
01:43:50,159 --> 01:43:57,199
love it. [laughter] Um, but like but
have someone throughout that process

1277
01:43:54,239 --> 01:44:00,800
that is actually um that that is that
has taken that work off of your plate

1278
01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:04,960
and then on the back end because they've
been involved through this entire time,

1279
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:08,719
they're going to be able to help in a
good position to help us score things

1280
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:13,280
and and provide us professional
expertise. So, I felt um pretty strongly

1281
01:44:11,360 --> 01:44:17,760
about that. And I think that like the
one of the best aspects of this is

1282
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:21,119
getting to a position where Safe Mine
isn't on your plate at all. Right. That

1283
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:26,960
is like that's what we're heading
towards. Um what what I don't want to do

1284
01:44:24,159 --> 01:44:33,280
is put you back in a position where you
and the rest of of our staff are having

1285
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:40,000
to actively manage manage um say mine
for the next forever and and having to

1286
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:43,679
um rearrange the CIP to write grants and
all of these other things. I think we do

1287
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:48,400
have like a there's an intensive moment
ahead of us, but we're heading towards

1288
01:44:46,239 --> 01:44:52,159
something that will really uh
potentially offer beautiful

1289
01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:56,159
opportunities for a community, hit a
bundle of needs, take this off your

1290
01:44:54,000 --> 01:45:02,800
plate, retain ownership of it, and I
think that there is a a clear way to to

1291
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:09,280
get to that through, you know, a very uh
structured and important process.

1292
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:14,400
So Maggie, why don't you talk about
your workload and whether it makes sense

1293
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:20,400
to bring in a consultant like I suggest?
>> Yeah. What you would take off?

1294
01:45:17,679 --> 01:45:22,719
» Do you want to say
a spot? Yeah,

1295
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:28,560
» we can talk more.
>> Why don't you think about a response? I

1296
01:45:24,719 --> 01:45:36,239
mean I definitely agree that um with the
idea of bringing outside expertise in to

1297
01:45:32,239 --> 01:45:42,080
do this our school process um and I
think whatever you know nominal money

1298
01:45:39,360 --> 01:45:47,440
that we pay for that we will get that
back in dividends in terms of removing

1299
01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:54,719
the cost of the buildings removing the
risk of the buildings uh and bringing a

1300
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:59,520
long-term solution for this which really
has been like a albatross around their

1301
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:06,800
neck for for you know almost a decade
now. So um I think it will [laughter]

1302
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:12,480
pay like
it it's money well spent basically. Uh

1303
01:46:09,440 --> 01:46:17,199
and I I completely agree that we need
that's the route we need to take and we

1304
01:46:15,199 --> 01:46:23,920
need to move forward. And we also need
to recognize that the longer we wait on

1305
01:46:20,239 --> 01:46:28,880
this RFP process, the the higher the
cost and the higher the risk is for the

1306
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:31,880
burrow and we have to take that into
account.

1307
01:46:32,480 --> 01:46:40,159
» I I agree with that. I'm really eager
I'm really eager to be done with this

1308
01:46:37,119 --> 01:46:47,280
property as as it exists in relation to
the burn now and I think we should move

1309
01:46:44,239 --> 01:46:53,199
to RFP as soon as possible and and the
hiring someone

1310
01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:57,520
seems very reasonable seems very seems a
lot very straightforward

1311
01:46:55,440 --> 01:47:05,600
uh interested in the manager's comments
as whether that ads or subtracts work um

1312
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:09,199
uh I mean we just had a another
presentation that that contemplated

1313
01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:16,080
giving her a lot more work in terms of
writing a lot of grants. So,

1314
01:47:13,119 --> 01:47:22,480
you know, I'm not sure which is which is
asking more from the manager which is

1315
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:28,480
which is uh alleviating some of the some
of the work. Um but definitely long-term

1316
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:35,040
it seems to be on the alleviation side.
So, you know, I uh I would certainly

1317
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:39,084
like to see this done
while I'm alive. [laughter]

1318
01:47:41,199 --> 01:47:45,920
» My question was, what are we
individually going to take

1319
01:47:44,924 --> 01:47:50,480
[clears throat] off our chefs?
>> I What I'm saying is that I think

1320
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:55,520
I think what I'm saying is I think this
does represent taking something off of

1321
01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:58,560
her plate. Um and taking something off
of all of her plates. you know, it's

1322
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:02,080
something we've wanted to do for a long
time. It's something we are have

1323
01:47:59,679 --> 01:48:07,520
articulated as a council, you know,
since day one that I've been on council.

1324
01:48:04,639 --> 01:48:13,600
Um, and I I don't want to see this get
bumped another four years or, you know,

1325
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:17,600
or whatever it is. Um,
>> yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't mean to

1326
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:22,159
» No, I think Okay.
>> I I think two two basic points. I I mean

1327
01:48:20,159 --> 01:48:28,159
I agree that
if we're going to do this we should be

1328
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:31,679
outsourcing the proposal unless unless
May test says no actually that turns out

1329
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:38,080
to be more complicated for her but I
suspect she's not going to say that. So

1330
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:44,719
I I would actually say I would take the
probably the most forceful position say

1331
01:48:40,159 --> 01:48:50,080
I would only agree to to proceed
in relatively short order if we agreed

1332
01:48:47,440 --> 01:48:55,600
to have [clears throat] engage an
outside consultant to do it. Um, and I

1333
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:59,920
think it's, you know, it's
short-term pain for long-term gain,

1334
01:48:57,520 --> 01:49:05,119
right? The dividends will pay out the
sooner this property is disposed of.

1335
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:11,679
Now, having said that, I I'm a little
concerned about the scope of the RFP and

1336
01:49:08,719 --> 01:49:18,159
whether that moving quickly creates a
problem for us because if

1337
01:49:15,199 --> 01:49:28,400
depending on how the 4B and 5A
discussions actually play out,

1338
01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:32,960
for me at least, will inform my views of
how much and to what extent

1339
01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:37,920
that property
affordable housing or workforce housing.

1340
01:49:36,159 --> 01:49:43,679
I want to say workforce housing because
affordable housing is not really

1341
01:49:40,960 --> 01:49:49,520
appropriate term. You know, the need for
that on that property, you know, if it's

1342
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:55,840
going to end up that we end up with a
solid plan for that kind of development

1343
01:49:52,639 --> 01:49:59,760
in 4A and 5B and elsewhere in the world.
You know, we haven't even talked about

1344
01:49:57,199 --> 01:50:05,840
other places where that kind of
development could take place.

1345
01:50:02,719 --> 01:50:10,880
To me, that's going to inform
the prioritization of the RFP. So, I'm a

1346
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:16,080
little concerned that until we finish
having the discussion, the zoning

1347
01:50:12,719 --> 01:50:20,560
discussion at least in regard to 4 A 5B,
if not the broader one,

1348
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:27,360
that
we're acting a little bit prematurely in

1349
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:34,639
terms of deciding what what we want, if
that makes sense. But that's not to say,

1350
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:41,280
right? I I again, if it's a six-month
process, we may have finished that four

1351
01:50:37,119 --> 01:50:45,040
4 A and 5B process by then. But I I do
share Cindy's concern that we've, you

1352
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:50,480
know, we thought we were trying to keep
these things separately tracked and they

1353
01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:54,639
definitely have not been. Um, and so I
feel like we're falling over each other

1354
01:50:52,639 --> 01:50:59,520
at every step when we're talking about
these big issues and it would just be

1355
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:03,360
nice to be sort of finish something
before we start the next thing.

1356
01:51:01,679 --> 01:51:08,480
» So just just in terms of the timeline
for those, our expectation is to have 5B

1357
01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:15,040
in front of council by the end of the
year either in November or December. Um

1358
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:19,199
4A is going to be a while. Um, there was
requests for more information and just

1359
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:22,320
the way planning commission is
scheduling their time, they're not going

1360
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:28,320
to be able to get through everything
until

1361
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:34,639
next year. So, we will have 5B by the
end of the year. I

1362
01:51:30,800 --> 01:51:37,920
» have 5B before us, but it may not be by
the end of the year. Yes, it may not be

1363
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:41,840
approved. I believe we should vote on
it. I I would like to see a resolution

1364
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:46,560
to 5B one way or the other by the end of
the year. we need to make a decision and

1365
01:51:43,520 --> 01:51:51,360
move on. The 4A is going to take longer.
So this process would the four we would

1366
01:51:49,920 --> 01:51:55,679
still we would not have made our final
determination about 4A um while this

1367
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:59,440
process proceeds if it goes along the
timeline I'm talking if we start working

1368
01:51:57,199 --> 01:52:04,800
on the the uh if we start working on the
RFP now we will still have 4A

1369
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:07,920
» at some point in the future.
>> That's a concern. I'll just express it

1370
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:11,760
as a concern.
>> Okay.

1371
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:17,360
» Not a deal breaker but a concern. Mhm.
>> Uh I have a question and then a comment.

1372
01:52:13,599 --> 01:52:22,639
Um the question is u we're talking about
4A and 5B. Uh this property sits in 3B.

1373
01:52:22,080 --> 01:52:25,360
Do we have
>> cuz Mike brought it [clears throat] up?

1374
01:52:23,679 --> 01:52:33,920
» No.
>> I'll finish my question. Do do we have a

1375
01:52:28,480 --> 01:52:39,119
plan to talk about zoning in 3B or or is
that not something we're going to

1376
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:44,800
discuss? It's a Okay, so we have a
long-term plan. It is not on our

1377
01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:51,119
immediate agenda, but um since this
property is burrow owned, the zoning is

1378
01:52:48,400 --> 01:52:55,920
more flexible. The burough can determine
what can be built on it regardless of

1379
01:52:53,199 --> 01:52:59,840
the zoning. So,
>> but understanding that has an impact for

1380
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:03,520
the people who live in
>> of course I mean and any anything that

1381
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:06,880
we allowed on this property would not
necessarily be allowed on the rest of

1382
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:13,280
the 3B. So we're not whatever we do here
is not open up the rest of 3B to similar

1383
01:53:10,320 --> 01:53:17,440
um building options.
I think at our our last meeting when we

1384
01:53:15,199 --> 01:53:22,159
were discussing like the missing middle
typologies, we asked planning commission

1385
01:53:20,239 --> 01:53:26,893
to like look
>> why at the missing middle which includes

1386
01:53:24,873 --> 01:53:26,893
[laughter]

1387
01:53:27,040 --> 01:53:36,400
» we asked them to be looking at lot sizes
and allowing row houses and cottages and

1388
01:53:34,159 --> 01:53:38,639
» staff standards. So, we asked them to
look at those throughout the other

1389
01:53:37,599 --> 01:53:42,800
districts, but that's going to take
more. I mean, this will be okay.

1390
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:50,159
» Sometime next year, they'll get to that.
>> Thank you. Uh, my comment is uh I

1391
01:53:46,639 --> 01:53:54,080
recommend that we table um consideration
for an RFP. I know this will be

1392
01:53:51,840 --> 01:54:00,719
unpopular with people, but my
recommendation is that uh we table it.

1393
01:53:57,199 --> 01:54:06,400
My my rationale is a couple of points.
Um the uh I wasn't here in December. I

1394
01:54:04,639 --> 01:54:10,960
wasn't on council in December when this
was previously discussed. I see

1395
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:15,119
information about community feedback in
uh but I don't see any documentation of

1396
01:54:13,119 --> 01:54:20,480
community feedback or that was collected
or not. Uh so I don't have that

1397
01:54:17,119 --> 01:54:26,080
available to me. I just see a summary of
um community feedback. Uh I'm I

1398
01:54:24,480 --> 01:54:29,440
mentioned before, I'll mention again
I've been only on council for a short

1399
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:37,599
period of time and I've seen us make
mistakes when we rush and uh and it

1400
01:54:33,599 --> 01:54:43,920
sounds like we're we're pushing to uh
push this through when there are other

1401
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:49,440
things that we're working on. Um and I
am concerned that uh we're going to push

1402
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:53,280
hard. we're going to make mistakes and
uh and those are going to have

1403
01:54:51,040 --> 01:54:57,360
long-lasting consequences as Jim
mentioned perhaps for 100 years that we

1404
01:54:55,760 --> 01:55:04,080
might not have to worry about this
property. So I I just want to state very

1405
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:11,760
firmly and strongly uh I recommend that
we do not vote today to move forward

1406
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:14,719
with uh preparing an RFP for this. Thank
you.

1407
01:55:12,719 --> 01:55:18,480
» Well, I was not planning to vote on
this. I was just planning to get a sense

1408
01:55:16,159 --> 01:55:22,480
of council and then we will have a vote
when we have a a formal action to take

1409
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:27,440
which will probably be to authorize
hiring consultant or such. Um but and

1410
01:55:26,159 --> 01:55:33,360
I'll also note that the community
feedback that is anticipated is we

1411
01:55:30,719 --> 01:55:39,280
present a draft RFP to the community,
they offer comments on it and then we

1412
01:55:35,599 --> 01:55:44,159
incorporate that in any final RFP. So
sorry I'm referring to the community

1413
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:48,480
feedback that was cited in the document
um from the December 2025 meeting.

1414
01:55:46,719 --> 01:55:52,880
You're talking about the prior survey
that we

1415
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:56,800
» did we did a uh we pulled together kind
of like the various themes council

1416
01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:59,760
members for all provided feedback on it
that was incorporate but your point is

1417
01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,760
» it's called community
>> feedback

1418
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:13,119
processes on the website
>> yeah for you I appreciate that

1419
01:56:10,159 --> 01:56:16,880
» I just I agree with all of you but say
for this was the first topic we explored

1420
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:20,320
nine years ago
I think it's naive for us to say we're

1421
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:26,280
going to hire a consultant and it's
going to alleviate things to do from our

1422
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:26,280
office.

1423
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:35,040
» Yeah. And I think we should demonstrate
um that we have incorporated our

1424
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:38,880
community's feedback as we go through to
I would feel much more confident as an

1425
01:56:36,719 --> 01:56:43,360
elected official to say look we
collected feedback and this is how we

1426
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:48,320
heard you and we implemented that as we
go through a thoughtful process to

1427
01:56:45,360 --> 01:56:51,920
continue maybe we take off and say you
know what we're going to back burner

1428
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:56,880
that if the [clears throat] will council
is concentrating moved to an RFP but I I

1429
01:56:55,679 --> 01:57:00,960
want to demonstrate straight to the
people that elected us that we can get

1430
01:56:58,480 --> 01:57:04,239
something done. [laughter]
>> I mean, you're laughing. I'm like,

1431
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:08,880
seriously, like the park plan, you know,
the the bridge in downtown we have very

1432
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:11,840
little control over. Um, what can we
demonstrate and what has to come off?

1433
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:15,679
You know, maybe it's the sidewalk
maintenance and vegetation, maybe it's

1434
01:57:13,520 --> 01:57:20,239
the traffic calming, cuz to think that
hiring a consultant to do this RFP is

1435
01:57:17,679 --> 01:57:24,480
going to take work off of your plate, I
think, is naive. And so, correct me if

1436
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:29,599
I'm wrong, but I mean, I know Emily
spends weeks of her time doing right to

1437
01:57:27,040 --> 01:57:32,880
know requests
that a consultant would not be legally

1438
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:34,000
able to do.
>> Is that correct?

1439
01:57:33,599 --> 01:57:38,080
» Yes.
>> Okay.

1440
01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:42,480
» Um, so first of all, I appreciate you
all being mindful of my time. I do want

1441
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:46,159
to say it's not just my time. It is all
staff's time. So, I'm not solely working

1442
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:50,320
on this. and I want to recognize the the
efforts of Emily and the rest of our our

1443
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:55,199
staff and and all of the the support
that they provide to the burrow. So, um

1444
01:57:53,280 --> 01:58:01,360
I'm just very appreciative that that I
have a council who is mindful of of our

1445
01:57:57,840 --> 01:58:10,480
workflow workflow and workload.
Um so certainly hiring a consultant for

1446
01:58:06,719 --> 01:58:16,480
this would be the preferred option. Um,
I don't have the time or expertise to

1447
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:20,320
really devote to this effort. Um, you
know, to Council Member Stratton's point

1448
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:25,360
here, we don't want to rush through this
and make mistakes. Um, having a

1449
01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:30,000
consultant who does this for a living,
they would have much more uh

1450
01:58:27,760 --> 01:58:34,639
sophisticated means of analysis, of
research, of of comparison. Um, so I

1451
01:58:33,199 --> 01:58:39,520
would certainly recommend that we do
that. Um, it doesn't necessarily

1452
01:58:37,119 --> 01:58:43,520
alleviate all of the scope of work. um
it does still add a substantial amount

1453
01:58:41,280 --> 01:58:48,080
of work because the finding of the
consultants and working with them on

1454
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:52,560
drafting uh the RFP and getting the
coordination that that entails that's

1455
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:58,960
another kind of large project that that
we would undertake. So it does add work

1456
01:58:55,119 --> 01:59:03,840
to the staff. Um it doesn't add as much
work though as if we were to be doing

1457
01:59:01,040 --> 01:59:09,199
this by ourselves.
I will say though in terms of

1458
01:59:05,599 --> 01:59:13,360
prioritization of projects, we kind of
put Seabine a little bit on the back

1459
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:19,040
burner because we had a full complement
of tenants. Um other priorities came up

1460
01:59:16,480 --> 01:59:26,560
this year um that took our focus away
from this. However,

1461
01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:31,840
given that we now have lost all but
essentially one tenant, um one tenant

1462
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:36,960
being Wonders Daycare and the Wonders
admin. So, two tenants but under the

1463
01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:42,159
same umbrella. Um, Lavner still has an
active lease, but they're not actively

1464
01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:48,239
using the sites. Um, so we don't really
have as many tenants um as we used to

1465
01:59:46,239 --> 01:59:52,800
and we have not yet found tenants to
backfill those spaces. So when we talk

1466
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:56,560
about Sabbine being a revenue generating
property or at least a revenue neutral

1467
01:59:54,639 --> 02:00:01,040
and that the money that we're spending
on the maintenance of the building is

1468
01:59:58,639 --> 02:00:06,800
being offset by the uh rental income
that we're receiving, that number is

1469
02:00:03,119 --> 02:00:09,920
going to flip next year. So if we don't
get new tenants in, the building is

1470
02:00:08,639 --> 02:00:13,520
still going to require certain amounts
of maintenance. And now we no longer

1471
02:00:11,360 --> 02:00:20,960
even have the rental revenue to make up
for that. So this is now amplified as a

1472
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:28,000
priority project for the burrow, for our
staff, for our financials. Um, so I do

1473
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:31,679
recommend that we do something with this
regardless of what whatever council's

1474
02:00:29,679 --> 02:00:37,599
will is. We do need to make a decision
on this and I I do not recommend that we

1475
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:41,920
push this off any longer because we are
very quickly turning into a situation

1476
02:00:39,360 --> 02:00:46,480
where we will now uh be financially
constrained by this property. Um, and

1477
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:51,520
and I don't want to get us into a
situation where

1478
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:54,208
we we en encumber ourselves with
something where it's too late to make a

1479
02:00:53,040 --> 02:00:58,880
decision that we otherwise
[clears throat] may have wanted to make.

1480
02:00:55,760 --> 02:01:04,960
So, I put that out there just to um
express the the the pace at which I

1481
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:09,280
think or the prioritization I feel of of
the large project. So, we have the

1482
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:13,920
bridge going on. Um, so I'll be working
with our consultants on uh pivoting to

1483
02:01:12,239 --> 02:01:20,239
that option three. So there'll be
updates coming um on that. Um the

1484
02:01:18,239 --> 02:01:24,719
recottification efforts, I know we still
have some more discussion. Um we have

1485
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:29,280
other smaller ordinances that we're
working on. We have the budget season is

1486
02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:33,440
kicking off and I'll be giving a
overview of our our scope and timeline

1487
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:37,360
um tonight. So that's obviously going to
be kind of a big thing for the next

1488
02:01:35,199 --> 02:01:41,199
couple of months.
Um we've got some staffing turnover as

1489
02:01:39,440 --> 02:01:46,080
well that we're dealing with. So there's
a lot on the plate. um in terms of

1490
02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:49,920
things coming off the ordinance work is
is

1491
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:54,960
you know certainly something that um
requires a lot of coordination and

1492
02:01:51,440 --> 02:01:59,360
effort. Um we do have our consultants to
help with that. Um, so in terms of kind

1493
02:01:57,440 --> 02:02:02,560
of that prioritization,
it's it's hard to make those judgment

1494
02:02:01,119 --> 02:02:07,520
calls about what needs to come on and
off. But really the main point what I

1495
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:12,560
want to make tonight is that 2011
binding needs to be prioritized because

1496
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:17,520
we are we are now at an inflection point
more so than we ever have been and we

1497
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:21,040
need to proceed with a path forward.
>> Okay. I'd like so we're not going to

1498
02:02:19,599 --> 02:02:28,040
take a vote tonight on this, but I'd
like to propose that you bring us um

1499
02:02:25,040 --> 02:02:28,040
more

1500
02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:37,199
you bring us more details about hiring a
consultant. Uh

1501
02:02:33,599 --> 02:02:41,920
and that I I heard a several council
people say they'd like to hear more

1502
02:02:38,639 --> 02:02:46,960
information about Jeff's proposal. So I
think that the next step there would be

1503
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:51,360
to bring in um the Lower Marian
Conservancy, which would be a partner

1504
02:02:49,199 --> 02:02:56,320
for any kind of grant application. I'd
like to hear from them. So this can be

1505
02:02:53,520 --> 02:03:00,320
like a private meeting to start with or
potentially a presentation to council.

1506
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:04,000
But I think that that would be the
appropriate step there because our

1507
02:03:02,320 --> 02:03:10,080
concerns are about the the concerns that
I heard were primarily about funding and

1508
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:14,800
the Laurian Conservancy has offered to
work on grant funding as part of the

1509
02:03:12,639 --> 02:03:18,400
proposal and uh you know they've written
grants with us before and we've worked

1510
02:03:16,400 --> 02:03:22,000
with them and it's been a very helpful
process. So

1511
02:03:20,560 --> 02:03:26,000
I'm hearing that we proceed with both of
these steps and then we'll need to vote

1512
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:33,599
on one or the other pretty soon.
Um, so do we, so like one of the ways to

1513
02:03:30,159 --> 02:03:40,000
do that is rather than having them spin
their wheels, which is incorporate

1514
02:03:36,639 --> 02:03:46,239
just the concept of that into portion of
the process where we were talking about

1515
02:03:43,119 --> 02:03:51,199
all of these other things and then that
can be handled rather than like now

1516
02:03:48,639 --> 02:03:56,159
we're like having kind of two parallel
things occurring in process where this

1517
02:03:54,639 --> 02:03:59,840
where like the partnership
kind of piece may not even work for us

1518
02:03:58,320 --> 02:04:04,080
to begin with and rather than forcing
that energy, we can incorporate it into

1519
02:04:02,080 --> 02:04:06,960
the process in the way that I was
describing earlier and that might just

1520
02:04:06,080 --> 02:04:10,239
solve for that.
>> But that doesn't meet refugeia's

1521
02:04:08,639 --> 02:04:14,000
timeline. Is that up to
>> It sounds It sounds like nothing might

1522
02:04:12,239 --> 02:04:18,639
at that point. But if we're actually
trying to get this started, then I think

1523
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:22,719
that puts us in the best position to
potentially meet that time.

1524
02:04:20,719 --> 02:04:26,960
» I just wonder I mean I would ask this is
such a creative idea. I would hate for

1525
02:04:25,119 --> 02:04:32,480
kind of bureaucracy and well this is how
we always do it to not at least explore

1526
02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:36,560
what is really an entrepreneurial
innovative idea and it sounds like you

1527
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:40,560
and the conservancy and even the county
have had some really substantive

1528
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:44,719
conversations. I think in a month we're
not going to make any decision but to

1529
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:49,040
have another bite at the apple to
address some of those questions with the

1530
02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:55,360
good that we might see and save mind I
think it would be worth it. Joe, Mike.

1531
02:04:52,080 --> 02:05:03,760
» Yeah. I mean, I
I don't want to say again, my my only

1532
02:04:59,679 --> 02:05:08,400
concern about this is whether we have to
I'm on check with John whether we have

1533
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:13,599
to do it through the RFP process. We may
have to um legally I'm not sure. Um not

1534
02:05:12,239 --> 02:05:16,000
if he's a tenant. Right.
>> Right.

1535
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:22,080
» I mean, if it's a pure tenency, I don't
think that's an issue. But if there's

1536
02:05:18,560 --> 02:05:25,760
going to be any sort of
land transfer and you know I feel like

1537
02:05:24,719 --> 02:05:29,599
we're at the beginning of the
discussion, right? Like I always say the

1538
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:34,719
devil's in the details, right? I think
there's a lot of great ways there's sort

1539
02:05:32,639 --> 02:05:38,880
of I'm already spinning about land
trusts and things like that. I mean it

1540
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:43,520
may be that we can,
you know, set up a land trust and and

1541
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:49,360
have the land trust essentially buy the
property from us over time.

1542
02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:52,560
um you know and where we're not
responsible for. So I feel like we're

1543
02:05:51,520 --> 02:05:59,119
sort of at the beginning of the
discussion, not at the end. And

1544
02:05:57,040 --> 02:06:04,800
I guess my my my you know, all this
makes me think like the RFP process we

1545
02:06:02,400 --> 02:06:09,440
should start in January after budgeting
after we know what happens with 5B.

1546
02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:15,679
Again, from my perspective, I don't know
what I would want the RFP to look like

1547
02:06:13,679 --> 02:06:20,480
until I know what our the rest of our
zoning looks like and whether we have

1548
02:06:18,159 --> 02:06:27,679
been able to fairly and fully
accommodate the missing middle, which if

1549
02:06:23,520 --> 02:06:34,239
we don't, 2011 say to me is a prime
space to address that issue. Maybe maybe

1550
02:06:30,960 --> 02:06:38,719
we say we do it all over town, but
you know, again, Joe, I I echo Joe's

1551
02:06:36,719 --> 02:06:43,840
concerns about I feel like we've been
rushing through stuff

1552
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:50,079
and quite frankly giving a month of
public input on 2011 when we know it is

1553
02:06:47,679 --> 02:06:58,320
a high. I mean to me that's just not
realistic that you know it's a high

1554
02:06:55,520 --> 02:07:02,800
visibility item
and you know we've been previously

1555
02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:06,960
criticized about how we got that public
comment the first time around. I wasn't

1556
02:07:04,719 --> 02:07:12,000
on council back then but I share that
concern because of the way that was

1557
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:15,440
structured. Um and so I want to make
sure that

1558
02:07:13,920 --> 02:07:19,760
for something that's going to go for
hopefully a hundred years that we do it

1559
02:07:17,760 --> 02:07:24,719
slow. We do it deliberate and we do it
right. And I don't think that's,

1560
02:07:22,400 --> 02:07:28,880
» you know, [laughter] I asked Joe for his
opinions.

1561
02:07:26,480 --> 02:07:33,599
» I just want to express Megie, I
appreciate that uh everything that you

1562
02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:39,199
described and also that the urgency is
um that we don't you know we have two

1563
02:07:35,520 --> 02:07:44,480
tenants right now uh under one umbrella
and um and that's creating some urgency

1564
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:51,520
and there may be an opportunity for
another tenant. Um uh so it it it um you

1565
02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:57,920
know if the lack of tenency is the
reason for the urgency um maybe it makes

1566
02:07:55,280 --> 02:08:03,119
sense to you know really explore if
there's a willing able tenant who's very

1567
02:08:00,079 --> 02:08:06,960
interested um to help address that gap.
Is there any way I could just say

1568
02:08:04,639 --> 02:08:12,639
something because I feel I it this take
two seconds but I feel like I'm an

1569
02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:16,480
example of the urgency that popped up in
in a positive way. Like Maggie and I

1570
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:20,960
kind of talked like I was looking at the
property and then there was like kind of

1571
02:08:18,719 --> 02:08:26,719
an increase in the schedule for me to
come in and present my idea. And I feel

1572
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:30,639
like it's I mean like I presented
something that I feel is has tons of

1573
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:36,320
potential but is incomplete in the sense
that like I just haven't like I

1574
02:08:32,639 --> 02:08:42,320
literally threw together like I I talked
with um with Moren. We started getting a

1575
02:08:39,040 --> 02:08:47,840
lot like some like some energy going
around the like grant opportunities.

1576
02:08:44,880 --> 02:08:52,800
There are some like larger funders that
that look at at public space like this

1577
02:08:50,560 --> 02:08:56,639
that there is opportunities. It's not
it's not and and this isn't just like a

1578
02:08:54,639 --> 02:09:02,480
a project that started off for graffiti,
but it's really for the community, too.

1579
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:06,480
And I felt like I'm I'm extremely
appreciative to come in and present

1580
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:10,800
tonight, but I did feel a bit rushed.
And and so, but I also don't think it

1581
02:09:08,639 --> 02:09:14,079
needs to take forever. And I really
appreciate like right when you and I

1582
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:18,639
talked I was kind of just like I put
together like kind of what I could some

1583
02:09:16,639 --> 02:09:21,920
of what when when I was away in Maine I
was just like I was like kind of

1584
02:09:19,679 --> 02:09:26,079
scrambling to like get something that I
felt at least decent about to like come

1585
02:09:23,920 --> 02:09:30,480
in and present. like I do feel like
there's

1586
02:09:27,760 --> 02:09:35,040
like there's a lot of potential and just
to having a bit of time to like flesh

1587
02:09:33,360 --> 02:09:38,719
flesh that out especially the funding
opportunities

1588
02:09:36,880 --> 02:09:42,800
have like kind of to Fred's point like
having the opportunity to come back and

1589
02:09:40,719 --> 02:09:46,639
and present that in like [clears throat]
more fleshed out with Moren to have that

1590
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:50,320
opportunity I feel like we can make a
lot of headway and I I feel like I could

1591
02:09:48,719 --> 02:09:55,040
come back in here with something really
digestible to have that conversation cuz

1592
02:09:52,480 --> 02:10:00,079
I agree like and this has been humbling
like understanding a bit more about the

1593
02:09:57,119 --> 02:10:05,440
challenges of the the deferred
maintenance, the the level of the the

1594
02:10:02,159 --> 02:10:11,520
amount and also just like how much this
it like I just I appreciate that and so

1595
02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:16,320
um but equally it'd be great to come
back in here and and and look at a

1596
02:10:13,599 --> 02:10:20,639
solutionoriented approach to this that
um it could work for everybody. Right.

1597
02:10:19,119 --> 02:10:24,000
But first, we have a lot of other
>> I do want to mention one other piece

1598
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,880
though because it was it was you know it
was brought up like should we wait till

1599
02:10:25,520 --> 02:10:34,639
next year? Should we not? And I think
that like I do think that like part of

1600
02:10:32,159 --> 02:10:38,000
part of why I thought we should got
started last year. Why I think we should

1601
02:10:36,159 --> 02:10:43,599
get started in terms of hiring a
consultant now is specifically because I

1602
02:10:40,719 --> 02:10:47,679
expect this process is going to take
much longer than 6 months.

1603
02:10:46,079 --> 02:10:50,880
As much as I love your optimism, it's
going to take a while because it will

1604
02:10:49,119 --> 02:10:56,400
necessarily take a while in order to do
all the things. And every kind of like

1605
02:10:54,400 --> 02:11:01,760
time we push that timeline back 3
months, we're pushing this broader thing

1606
02:10:58,880 --> 02:11:07,119
out there back 3 months, back 5 months,
and then it becomes impossible to like

1607
02:11:04,480 --> 02:11:11,119
even get all of the information and do
workman like so we can take our time so

1608
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:14,880
we can we can really make a wise
decision and do all these things. So

1609
02:11:12,639 --> 02:11:20,079
that's why I think that even if folks
are coming back, we should also be

1610
02:11:17,920 --> 02:11:23,199
identifying some potential consultants
to help so that we're not continuing to

1611
02:11:22,480 --> 02:11:26,480
push that.
>> Okay, that that is what I'm hearing. We

1612
02:11:24,719 --> 02:11:30,320
are we are we got a lot of other items
tonight. We are not making we're not

1613
02:11:27,840 --> 02:11:34,159
voting on anything tonight. So I think
we should proceed. Uh I'm hearing

1614
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:39,040
significant support for two different
positions. Uh I think we need to

1615
02:11:36,639 --> 02:11:41,520
continue to explore these and to the
point where we have a vote. I think

1616
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:48,960
we're going to need to have a vote to
clarify our position. Um because I agree

1617
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:58,400
with Maggie's position that
the time has come to move on. Uh so

1618
02:11:55,920 --> 02:12:00,800
all right. Do you is that clear enough?
>> Yes.

1619
02:11:59,040 --> 02:12:06,040
» Okay.
Uh I'd like to move on to the next

1620
02:12:02,239 --> 02:12:06,040
discussion item then

1621
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:10,920
downtown tree maintenance.

1622
02:12:11,360 --> 02:12:18,920
All right. So,
get to my memo here.

1623
02:12:20,239 --> 02:12:29,520
Um,
so the burrow has an ordinance that

1624
02:12:25,760 --> 02:12:34,000
defines that all street trees,
also called shade trees,

1625
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:39,360
um, that extend within the public right
away are the maintenance responsibility

1626
02:12:36,960 --> 02:12:45,280
of the property owner on whose property
that tree sits.

1627
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:48,960
This extends to both commercial and
residential properties. The ordinance

1628
02:12:46,880 --> 02:12:55,599
doesn't make a distinction between the
two. And

1629
02:12:51,920 --> 02:13:01,040
what that means practically is that all
of the street trees on Hammerford Avenue

1630
02:12:58,239 --> 02:13:03,360
and in our downtown generally
are then the responsibility

1631
02:13:01,922 --> 02:13:09,040
[clears throat] of each individual
property owner um of however many

1632
02:13:07,280 --> 02:13:13,280
properties that may be. So some of them
are owned by the same person, some of

1633
02:13:10,400 --> 02:13:19,199
them are owned by different people. Um
there is there has been in the past a

1634
02:13:16,639 --> 02:13:27,679
practice that the burrow has maintained
these trees in a uniform manner um using

1635
02:13:22,880 --> 02:13:33,040
burough funds uh to do so. This is
because there is a vested interest in

1636
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:39,520
keeping a uniform maintenance of those
trees. Those trees are hugely [snorts]

1637
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:44,639
uh impactful on the streetscape of our
downtowns. really contribute to the

1638
02:13:41,679 --> 02:13:48,960
character of the downtown.
But as I understand it in speaking with

1639
02:13:46,880 --> 02:13:53,760
our director of public works is that
this has not been done in a uniform

1640
02:13:51,360 --> 02:14:02,880
manner by the burrow since about 2017 or
2018. Um the trees have gotten uh older

1641
02:13:58,320 --> 02:14:10,480
and are in need of some pruning. Um so
the question really that we wanted to uh

1642
02:14:05,520 --> 02:14:14,239
pose to council is that um this being
you know it's within the right of way so

1643
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:18,079
it falls within the burough's
jurisdiction. Uh the ordinance though

1644
02:14:16,480 --> 02:14:21,599
defines street trees in the right of way
as being the property owner's m

1645
02:14:19,599 --> 02:14:27,040
maintenance responsibility.
Um but should the burough wish to take

1646
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:32,320
on that maintenance responsibility it
would add additional cost to our tree

1647
02:14:29,040 --> 02:14:38,079
maintenance budget. Um, but it would
provide the benefit of maintaining the

1648
02:14:34,000 --> 02:14:42,079
trees in our downtown in a uniform way.
So, the question really is, uh, the

1649
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:46,079
trees are in need of some repair. I
actually had, um, a conversation with

1650
02:14:44,079 --> 02:14:53,440
one of the larger property owners just
this week, um, who expressed, uh, some,

1651
02:14:50,560 --> 02:14:58,560
um, concern that he didn't realize that
this was a a maintenance responsibility

1652
02:14:56,000 --> 02:15:03,280
that was born by the property owners. um
and just had some questions about what

1653
02:15:00,159 --> 02:15:06,880
that means in terms of liability. Um the
proposal that we're putting forth is not

1654
02:15:05,119 --> 02:15:10,159
that we would not that we the burough
would then take u maintenance

1655
02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:15,040
responsibility for everything about the
tree. Uh it really just to provide some

1656
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:19,840
uniform um pruning and periodic
maintenance. Um so if we were to do that

1657
02:15:18,320 --> 02:15:26,960
uh we would just hire a tree contractor
to come and do all of the trees. Um and

1658
02:15:22,719 --> 02:15:31,520
Jeff, this was for avenue.
There's two trees up forest that are

1659
02:15:29,280 --> 02:15:40,880
larger, two trees on Essex that are
larger, and two or three of them north.

1660
02:15:36,400 --> 02:15:44,880
So in total around about 20 trees.
>> So [clears throat] we're looking at uh

1661
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:48,800
that work would be about $5,000. Um they
would need to be maintained about every

1662
02:15:46,320 --> 02:15:52,960
3 to 5 years. Uh so if this is something
that we want to undertake, we would then

1663
02:15:51,280 --> 02:15:57,360
um share this information with the
property owners to let them know you

1664
02:15:55,119 --> 02:16:03,040
know we will be maintaining these trees.
However, that does not mean that we are

1665
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:06,960
taking full ownership of these trees. So
if they are to be damaged, if they need

1666
02:16:04,880 --> 02:16:11,679
to be replaced or there's other larger
maintenance needs with them, um you

1667
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:15,520
know, sidewalk repairs, those are all
still legally the maintenance

1668
02:16:13,280 --> 02:16:21,920
responsibility of those property owners.
um and we would simply um you know uh

1669
02:16:19,280 --> 02:16:25,840
reiterate that to them or just provide
explanation for that. So this would be

1670
02:16:24,239 --> 02:16:29,920
um something that we would need to
coordinate with our solicitor to make

1671
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:34,240
sure that we uh draft this language
appropriately to clearly define

1672
02:16:32,479 --> 02:16:39,040
responsibilities and what we're offering
to take on versus what would still

1673
02:16:36,880 --> 02:16:44,719
remain the the responsibility of the
property owner. Um, but rather than make

1674
02:16:42,559 --> 02:16:47,840
a unilateral administrative decision
regarding that, I did want to bring that

1675
02:16:46,399 --> 02:16:51,829
before council because this does have
implications on our budget.

1676
02:16:50,080 --> 02:16:56,639
» Okay.
[clears throat]

1677
02:16:53,599 --> 02:16:59,599
» Who who pays for this? Do do we do the
work? Can we charge the property owners

1678
02:16:58,639 --> 02:17:03,840
or
>> So, the proposal is that we would do the

1679
02:17:01,599 --> 02:17:09,519
work and we would pay for it. The other
option is we could do the work um and

1680
02:17:06,719 --> 02:17:13,920
then lean the property owners um or send
them invoices um but that is not what's

1681
02:17:12,399 --> 02:17:18,960
being proposed. What's being proposed is
that we would uh incorporate this just

1682
02:17:15,679 --> 02:17:24,080
as part of our budget.
>> I would just support

1683
02:17:22,399 --> 02:17:30,319
not charging or putting a lean to the
property owners at this point given the

1684
02:17:27,040 --> 02:17:33,439
vacancies downtown and you know they are
struggling so much. We're trying to

1685
02:17:31,519 --> 02:17:38,319
control what we can control this we can.
I mean 5,000 I think we can find that in

1686
02:17:35,599 --> 02:17:42,240
the budget and let folks know we're not
committing to this in perpetuity.

1687
02:17:40,080 --> 02:17:46,960
However, we want to recognize that with
the bridge out and downtown vacancies,

1688
02:17:44,639 --> 02:17:53,200
we don't want to add this to what is
already a struggle in your storefront at

1689
02:17:49,040 --> 02:17:57,280
this time. Can we put that language in?
Um yeah, and I think that's that's very

1690
02:17:55,599 --> 02:18:03,920
much kind of the spirit that this is
being undertaken in as we care about our

1691
02:18:00,639 --> 02:18:08,000
downtown. We care about um you know
providing um assistance where where

1692
02:18:06,399 --> 02:18:10,719
possible.
Um this has been something that we've

1693
02:18:09,519 --> 02:18:18,319
done in the past, but we've never
formalized it. And the the other intent

1694
02:18:14,639 --> 02:18:24,399
as well is that um if we proceed with
this, I do want to make it clear that

1695
02:18:21,679 --> 02:18:29,840
we're not then taking that ownership. So
I I do want to be very intentional about

1696
02:18:26,399 --> 02:18:34,960
this and clear as to kind of we're we're
doing this as a matter of courtesy.

1697
02:18:32,960 --> 02:18:40,800
We're doing this as a matter of interest
in our downtown. we're doing this as a

1698
02:18:37,040 --> 02:18:46,240
matter of um kind of a a good uh good
neighbor sort of a thing. Um there's a

1699
02:18:44,160 --> 02:18:48,880
lot of great benefits to that. Um the
property owners benefit from this

1700
02:18:47,599 --> 02:18:52,000
because then they wouldn't have to spend
the money to maintain the trees

1701
02:18:50,160 --> 02:18:56,559
themselves. The trees are maintained in
a way that supports their their

1702
02:18:54,000 --> 02:19:03,359
long-term health for our downtown. Um
but again clearly creating that um that

1703
02:19:00,319 --> 02:19:08,240
that division for this is what we're
doing to help out. But we're not doing

1704
02:19:05,599 --> 02:19:12,319
this in a way that would mean that we
would then in perpetuity take ownership

1705
02:19:10,479 --> 02:19:16,479
of these trees. We're simply taking
periodic maintenance of these trees on

1706
02:19:15,359 --> 02:19:22,559
ourselves.
>> Two one question and one nit um question

1707
02:19:20,240 --> 02:19:28,000
is what happens if the property owner
says I don't want you touching my tree?

1708
02:19:24,719 --> 02:19:32,840
I mean we can't we can't say we are
going to do this right

1709
02:19:32,960 --> 02:19:40,319
» but only but only if it's a health or
safety issue right if it's I mean I

1710
02:19:38,160 --> 02:19:44,240
guess we can say if their trees are not
being properly pruned I guess it's a

1711
02:19:42,160 --> 02:19:49,120
safety issue the other thing I guess
then is in our communication I I also

1712
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:53,600
think and we should probably talk to
John about this

1713
02:19:52,080 --> 02:19:57,520
I I want to make sure that we're not
undertaking potent potential liability

1714
02:19:55,439 --> 02:20:02,160
if somebody if the tree then falls and
somebody claims that we pruned it

1715
02:19:59,439 --> 02:20:06,640
improperly. I would like to put that
indemnification on the property owner to

1716
02:20:04,479 --> 02:20:10,080
say you are still liable for this
condition of this tree no matter what.

1717
02:20:08,560 --> 02:20:14,240
And if we do this work, you're going to
indemnify the burrow if any third party

1718
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:18,800
claims against us because of our
pruning. You know, a basic

1719
02:20:16,479 --> 02:20:23,040
indemnification. I think we need that.
This the cost isn't a lot, but I don't

1720
02:20:21,280 --> 02:20:27,920
want to create a I don't want to
unnecessarily create a risk of exposure

1721
02:20:25,280 --> 02:20:31,200
to the burrow if you know the tree falls
down in a storm and they're going to

1722
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:34,680
claim we mis pruned it. Not that Jeff
would ever mispr.

1723
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:40,960
But [laughter] but I think we need to
make sure we have those legal

1724
02:20:38,880 --> 02:20:46,560
protection.
>> So yeah, similar concern about what if

1725
02:20:43,040 --> 02:20:52,880
they what if they deny like you can't
prune my tree. Um but um the downtown is

1726
02:20:51,120 --> 02:20:59,120
I think it's the only area where we
mandate plantings you know in the verge

1727
02:20:55,920 --> 02:21:04,560
or in the street you know um and we
require that trees not only be

1728
02:21:01,359 --> 02:21:10,479
maintained there but also uh be replaced
if they're if they're damaged or they

1729
02:21:07,359 --> 02:21:15,840
die. Um
uh

1730
02:21:12,960 --> 02:21:19,520
the shade trick commission
they have been

1731
02:21:18,319 --> 02:21:24,160
I don't know if you remember this but
years ago we did task them with coming

1732
02:21:21,359 --> 02:21:26,160
up with a downtown crew replacement and
maintenance plan.

1733
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:30,399
» Mhm.
>> They've back burnered that forever. They

1734
02:21:28,880 --> 02:21:36,640
have a lot of lot on their plate, you
know, but this is one thing they have

1735
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:40,560
been working on and it might sort of
behoove us to fold something like this

1736
02:21:38,240 --> 02:21:45,520
into, you know, future maintenance. I I
mean, I agree that we can do this now

1737
02:21:42,240 --> 02:21:51,920
and it's not a great cost. $5,000
over 5 years doesn't seem like that

1738
02:21:48,160 --> 02:21:55,920
much. Um uh since this is an area where
we mandate trees be planted and

1739
02:21:53,680 --> 02:22:00,800
maintained, it seems natural that we
should you know codify that in some way

1740
02:21:58,640 --> 02:22:05,120
that we you know we articulate what is
our responsibility or what is you know

1741
02:22:02,880 --> 02:22:10,479
what kind of action can we take when
it's time to maintain or improve them.

1742
02:22:08,880 --> 02:22:16,160
Um
the

1743
02:22:12,960 --> 02:22:20,000
question I had is some of these uh trees
that are in the downtown area, they have

1744
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:24,240
lights in them, you know, that the shop
owners have put up. Some even have

1745
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:28,880
electrical boxes in them. Are we
contemplating doing anything like that

1746
02:22:26,960 --> 02:22:35,359
like removing them or asking them to
remove them or shift them or

1747
02:22:32,479 --> 02:22:39,120
» The electrical boxes were all taken out.
>> Oh, okay.

1748
02:22:36,399 --> 02:22:45,520
That was back when when Samantha was
here. Um that was a catch by Pico. They

1749
02:22:42,080 --> 02:22:50,240
didn't authorize that, so they came out.
And then the string lights that are in

1750
02:22:47,840 --> 02:22:57,040
there used to be plugged in by the
burrow when we when we would hang up our

1751
02:22:53,600 --> 02:23:01,920
wreaths and stuff on the lights. Um we
have not plugged them in in years. So,

1752
02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:07,280
you know, each year you say we're going
to unravel them and take them down and

1753
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:12,399
just be here that that do it.
>> Jim, can I ask you a question?

1754
02:23:09,359 --> 02:23:16,960
» It's probably for Jim, Jeff, or Jeff
even.

1755
02:23:13,439 --> 02:23:21,600
» Um, do we qualify as a level one
arburetum that tree American and is

1756
02:23:19,760 --> 02:23:25,359
there any funding available because of
that distinction to property owners?

1757
02:23:24,000 --> 02:23:30,880
» Yeah. Tree city.
>> Yeah, the tree city. And

1758
02:23:28,960 --> 02:23:36,000
» I don't think we get any funding
directly from Tree City, but maybe

1759
02:23:33,359 --> 02:23:43,280
» you know there's no direct funding. It's
actually the opposite. We have to spend

1760
02:23:39,200 --> 02:23:48,399
two bucks per resident to maintain that
and that is qualified with tree

1761
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:51,439
prunings, tree takedowns, tree
plantings.

1762
02:23:49,439 --> 02:23:58,000
» Okay.
I I I've been researching like uh Narn

1763
02:23:54,800 --> 02:24:02,720
qualifies as a a level one arburetum
through ARNET which accredited the

1764
02:24:00,399 --> 02:24:07,680
Barnes Foundation among others like
Barnes Foundation Arburum and when you

1765
02:24:05,600 --> 02:24:14,240
get accredited one one of my questions
was actually how does this uh I I I met

1766
02:24:11,920 --> 02:24:19,439
with the Chry Commission this month to
to kind of talk about this a little bit

1767
02:24:16,399 --> 02:24:23,680
to see if there's ways to like utilize
that then for available funding to

1768
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:28,800
because after the micro burst, right? It
was like this exact scenario where like

1769
02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:32,560
all these trees came down on p like
privately owned trees came down in

1770
02:24:30,800 --> 02:24:39,200
public space. You clear them off the
road, but then the land owners are still

1771
02:24:35,600 --> 02:24:44,560
left with like5$10,000
like tickets to, you know, take either

1772
02:24:42,000 --> 02:24:49,120
take their tree down or sometimes it's
deferred maintenance of the trees if

1773
02:24:47,040 --> 02:24:53,600
they're cabled. if there's money that's
put into like preventative care for the

1774
02:24:51,840 --> 02:24:57,920
street trees or even if they're on
private property. Um, being an

1775
02:24:55,439 --> 02:25:02,720
accredited arboritum and plenty of
municipalities have gone through this,

1776
02:25:00,160 --> 02:25:08,319
it it opens up funding opportunities and
also changes the guidelines about how

1777
02:25:05,680 --> 02:25:14,319
trees that are owned either primarily by
a municipality but then also there can

1778
02:25:10,319 --> 02:25:18,080
be secondary guidelines for how um uh
property owners can contribute in the

1779
02:25:16,080 --> 02:25:22,960
same way. So, it's something that can be
further explored. I I'm trying to learn

1780
02:25:20,399 --> 02:25:28,000
more about it so I can help the Shade
Tree Commission potentially

1781
02:25:25,359 --> 02:25:30,319
apply. I'm sorry to jump in there, but
it is a pretty cool It's a pretty cool

1782
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:33,120
option.
>> It was a direct question. I think that

1783
02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:36,560
it'd be good for that to keep going
through the Shane Tree Commission until

1784
02:25:34,560 --> 02:25:41,800
they come to a recommendation and then
it can rise to council.

1785
02:25:37,840 --> 02:25:41,800
» We were calling it a NAR

1786
02:25:42,000 --> 02:25:47,359
t-shirt.
>> Yeah. Other concerns about Jeff

1787
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:52,960
proposal? Anybody else?
>> I mean, I would just put this under the

1788
02:25:49,920 --> 02:25:57,760
umbrella of streetscape improvements for
the downtown and I think that's money

1789
02:25:56,240 --> 02:25:58,880
spent there in terms of
>> Yeah.

1790
02:25:58,479 --> 02:26:01,840
» Yeah.
>> I'm hearing general approval. It does

1791
02:26:00,399 --> 02:26:06,720
sound like we want to tighten the the
language a bit. Um, so make sure that

1792
02:26:04,399 --> 02:26:08,880
» John Walker's involved with the is
comfortable with the

1793
02:26:07,680 --> 02:26:13,280
» Y. All right.
>> One additional point. Uh there's a I

1794
02:26:11,520 --> 02:26:18,080
think looking at Google maps looks like
there's a tree on Windsor corner of

1795
02:26:14,960 --> 02:26:22,479
Windsor in Arbor that that uh I don't
know if that's I don't know if we want

1796
02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:27,520
to include Windsor or not but it looks
like there's a large tree there. Also

1797
02:26:24,479 --> 02:26:31,439
just in terms of uh in terms of uh
guidance to staff, um I think you know

1798
02:26:29,760 --> 02:26:39,600
we want to be very specific about which
trees uh there are trees um uh that go

1799
02:26:35,760 --> 02:26:45,040
into the parking lot kind of behind um
uh the south side of Narworth or are we

1800
02:26:42,160 --> 02:26:48,560
considering that we're doing those or I
I don't need an answer but I think we

1801
02:26:46,479 --> 02:26:55,200
just want to be very specific. This is
the trees along the street um only or

1802
02:26:51,840 --> 02:26:59,680
what about going into the parking lot
>> the traffic circle how are the trees

1803
02:26:57,359 --> 02:27:06,160
selected how did you select the trees
>> so face and circle are our trees you

1804
02:27:03,439 --> 02:27:11,120
know we we own in there we prune in
there you know we take care of those

1805
02:27:07,520 --> 02:27:17,920
elms you know the trees were selected by
which ones reside in the sidewalk within

1806
02:27:14,240 --> 02:27:22,240
the right away you know the tree that
you're referencing at the post office is

1807
02:27:20,240 --> 02:27:27,439
actually like on their front lawn. So, I
think it's just beyond, you know, the

1808
02:27:25,200 --> 02:27:32,880
right of way there. The only time we
touch that tree there is if it starts to

1809
02:27:29,920 --> 02:27:37,200
impede with this stop sign there. And
then that's just a quick cut. That's not

1810
02:27:34,960 --> 02:27:40,640
a horicultural
endeavor. That's we need folks to see

1811
02:27:39,680 --> 02:27:46,880
the sign.
>> Perfect. Thank you,

1812
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:51,680
» All right. Sounds like got approval to
proceed with that plan.

1813
02:27:49,040 --> 02:27:56,240
» Great. Thank you.
>> All right. [snorts]

1814
02:27:53,359 --> 02:28:04,479
Um, next discussion item
is the fitness and indoor recreation is

1815
02:28:02,160 --> 02:28:10,880
uh we lost our parking commission
unfortunately. Uh,

1816
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:16,399
so how do we want to structure this?
>> Right. So this is a new format that I

1817
02:28:13,520 --> 02:28:20,880
would like to introduce um is the table
read. Uh so the table read being

1818
02:28:19,200 --> 02:28:28,319
something that we would introduce at
work sessions. This is a nonvoting

1819
02:28:24,319 --> 02:28:34,319
meeting uh for most things and um this
just gives us an opportunity to be

1820
02:28:31,760 --> 02:28:37,840
deliberate about reading our ordinances,
making sure that everyone has read them,

1821
02:28:36,640 --> 02:28:41,280
making sure that all questions are
answered, making sure that any edits

1822
02:28:39,359 --> 02:28:45,439
that we would like to make to them um
have been addressed before they come

1823
02:28:42,880 --> 02:28:51,600
before council for any formal action for
authorizing authorizing advertisement um

1824
02:28:49,040 --> 02:28:55,760
or adoption. So the table read is going
to be something that we introduce before

1825
02:28:53,120 --> 02:29:00,640
we authorize advertisements. Um it can
go through as many table reads as we

1826
02:28:57,600 --> 02:29:04,319
feel necessary until the ordinance is um
satisfactory so that by the time that we

1827
02:29:02,720 --> 02:29:08,560
get to our business meetings and we
authorize advertisement and then we go

1828
02:29:06,160 --> 02:29:13,040
to authorize adoption, we will have
already have vetted all of our um

1829
02:29:11,280 --> 02:29:19,600
questions, comments, concerns ahead of
time. So then those business items just

1830
02:29:14,960 --> 02:29:24,960
become uh very um de facto at that point
because it it already would have gone

1831
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:30,000
through uh full review um and approval.
So what we're proposing then for tonight

1832
02:29:27,280 --> 02:29:35,439
is a table read. This is ordinance 1073
fitness and indoor recreation uses. This

1833
02:29:32,960 --> 02:29:41,439
is actually what we discussed at the
last business meeting in August. So we

1834
02:29:38,560 --> 02:29:46,160
have made the changes that were
recommended at that meeting. Um I had

1835
02:29:44,000 --> 02:29:49,840
recommended that we table the movement.
We were going to move to advertise with

1836
02:29:48,399 --> 02:29:54,240
all of those amendments and I felt that
the amendments were too numerous to do

1837
02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:58,493
that. So we have made those changes to
the ordinance that is incorporated into

1838
02:29:56,160 --> 02:30:02,160
the draft that you have before you. Um
[snorts] so really at this point it's an

1839
02:30:00,240 --> 02:30:06,720
opportunity for us to just take a look
at the ordinance. um make sure that the

1840
02:30:05,040 --> 02:30:10,479
changes that were recommended at our
August meeting have been incorporated to

1841
02:30:08,479 --> 02:30:16,160
your satisfaction. If there's any other
changes, we can make them ahead of the

1842
02:30:12,880 --> 02:30:22,960
the business meeting. Um but otherwise,
this is kind of the opportunity to uh uh

1843
02:30:21,439 --> 02:30:29,200
get out anything that we want to get out
and and discuss uh discuss the the

1844
02:30:25,200 --> 02:30:36,000
ordinance. Um and so again for not just
this table read but all moving forward

1845
02:30:31,920 --> 02:30:40,640
uh once we have then the um the okay at
our work sessions on the table read we

1846
02:30:38,720 --> 02:30:44,720
proceed then at the following business
meeting for authorization to advertise.

1847
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:48,800
So if this passes muster at this table
read then you will see this before us

1848
02:30:46,479 --> 02:30:52,600
for authorization to advertise at our
September business meeting.

1849
02:30:53,680 --> 02:31:02,319
» Okay. Thanks for that summary and yeah,
we're hoping this will avoid some of the

1850
02:31:00,319 --> 02:31:08,240
so more discussion time for some of the
legislation. Um,

1851
02:31:05,439 --> 02:31:14,479
so we've already seen this a few times,
but uh comments at this point on this?

1852
02:31:11,680 --> 02:31:19,760
So I I wasn't here obviously at the
business meeting so [clears throat]

1853
02:31:16,240 --> 02:31:28,229
express I I still think that this rule
for Habford of having the first 12 ft be

1854
02:31:23,520 --> 02:31:32,160
some other use is unnecessary and um I
[clears throat] just you know we're

1855
02:31:29,920 --> 02:31:36,399
trying to fill that space in particular
and creating an additional restriction

1856
02:31:34,560 --> 02:31:42,000
there to me just completely
counterintuitive.

1857
02:31:38,080 --> 02:31:47,120
I I get that in general the thought
process for Hford is you know you want

1858
02:31:44,479 --> 02:31:52,720
people coming in and out and you know
not just coming in but we have

1859
02:31:49,359 --> 02:31:57,600
restaurants that that's not the case um
and other kind types of businesses

1860
02:31:55,840 --> 02:32:04,080
potentially they're not the case and I
just I I think it's an unnecessary

1861
02:32:00,560 --> 02:32:11,439
restriction and is
at a time when we're desperately trying

1862
02:32:06,479 --> 02:32:17,040
to fill those spaces is like I don't
it maybe it's a nice thing to have. I I

1863
02:32:14,720 --> 02:32:21,760
but I I really don't see the problem
with you walking down a river road and

1864
02:32:19,439 --> 02:32:26,640
seeing a a bunch of people on a bunch of
exercise bicycles. It doesn't offend me

1865
02:32:24,399 --> 02:32:32,640
and I don't think we should be zoning
for

1866
02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:36,319
um uh you know because it doesn't look
nice to see people in sweats or

1867
02:32:34,560 --> 02:32:40,800
whatever. In fact, I think it creates a
vibe. If anything, you know, more

1868
02:32:38,960 --> 02:32:44,210
energy, maybe more people will go in and
sign up for classes. Oh, you know,

1869
02:32:42,479 --> 02:32:47,760
that's like a fun class or there's
[snorts] so and so. I know there's my

1870
02:32:46,080 --> 02:32:51,359
neighbor. Maybe I'll join that class.
So,

1871
02:32:49,359 --> 02:32:53,920
that that's my only comment. I didn't
get to say it last month cuz I wasn't

1872
02:32:53,359 --> 02:32:58,000
here.
>> Well, I actually have the exact same

1873
02:32:55,280 --> 02:33:02,479
apology in common. Um because we do we
do have businesses that kind of skirt

1874
02:32:59,840 --> 02:33:07,200
this by you know selling trinkets that
no one ever goes in to actually buy in a

1875
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:11,840
storefront. Um and what I would be even
kind of more concerned was you know I

1876
02:33:10,160 --> 02:33:17,120
think the spirit behind this I'm all
behind. Um however in practice you know

1877
02:33:15,359 --> 02:33:20,720
I would hate to see a fitness studio
sell a smoothie or a soda cuz we want

1878
02:33:19,040 --> 02:33:25,120
them to go in and use that fitness plan
and then walk down to get cafe and then

1879
02:33:22,560 --> 02:33:30,880
walk to Yasu. Like I think the landscape
of retail has shifted such particularly

1880
02:33:27,840 --> 02:33:35,301
at the time where we have such vacancies
12 ft of depth for them to sell socks or

1881
02:33:33,520 --> 02:33:38,720
something to qualify for this zoning.
[snorts]

1882
02:33:36,240 --> 02:33:41,120
Um I don't think it's I think it's
prohibitive or sets up an unfair

1883
02:33:40,640 --> 02:33:44,800
barrier.
>> So we we did we did send this back to

1884
02:33:42,800 --> 02:33:49,319
planning commission. They changed it
slightly so that it only applies to

1885
02:33:49,439 --> 02:33:55,760
» certain there's more than just so like
what what is being described as

1886
02:33:53,920 --> 02:34:00,560
functionally like a new building
scenario which I think at that point it

1887
02:33:58,960 --> 02:34:07,439
would be a new build scenario so they
could program it in the broader concern

1888
02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:12,240
and I share this concern is like is not
the new build scenario it's the existing

1889
02:34:09,520 --> 02:34:16,000
space scenario so the reason why 20 feet
of foot of a

1890
02:34:13,680 --> 02:34:21,680
was selected is because that's basically
the individual storefronts today. And

1891
02:34:18,720 --> 02:34:27,840
what we potentially do if we do not keep
that in place is we incentivize

1892
02:34:24,640 --> 02:34:33,680
a number of businesses to become one
gigantic space. And once you make that

1893
02:34:30,319 --> 02:34:39,280
interior change to tear down a bunch of
those walls, you're not going to get

1894
02:34:35,680 --> 02:34:44,319
kind of like small stall spaces back.
and small stall spaces have

1895
02:34:42,319 --> 02:34:50,399
a potentially good need. Obviously there
this individual property has a um a

1896
02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:53,680
troubled history for like really a
really specific subset of reasons, but

1897
02:34:52,240 --> 02:35:01,520
if you look throughout the rest of
downtown, those um classically sized uh

1898
02:34:59,439 --> 02:35:07,760
commercial spaces serve a specific type
of need. So if in fact the building

1899
02:35:06,160 --> 02:35:11,920
like we don't know what's going to
happen with that space if it becomes

1900
02:35:09,200 --> 02:35:15,439
like if there ends up being some sort of
new build scenario because we've

1901
02:35:13,680 --> 02:35:20,160
troubleshot stuff and that ends up being
then we kind of at this point they can

1902
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:23,600
just deal with that and they can deal
with this and give us an active street

1903
02:35:22,399 --> 02:35:29,280
and hopefully they're going to be
choosing those active uses. Um, but for

1904
02:35:26,880 --> 02:35:34,000
the time being, if we're going to have
the existing spaces as they are, I don't

1905
02:35:31,439 --> 02:35:38,880
want to incentivize someone to come in,
tear down the walls throughout, turn it

1906
02:35:35,600 --> 02:35:44,319
into one big large footprint use,
um, rather than, you know, someone ends

1907
02:35:42,319 --> 02:35:48,720
up with it and then it's just going to
be a large footprint use for the rest of

1908
02:35:46,640 --> 02:35:53,359
» something. Aren't you incentivizing them
to take more property because they can't

1909
02:35:51,439 --> 02:35:58,160
use the first 12 ft for
>> No, the point this the point of this is

1910
02:35:55,280 --> 02:36:02,479
that you if you come into one of those
individual spaces, you can totally you

1911
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:06,479
can run your fitness studio out of any
of those individual spaces

1912
02:36:05,359 --> 02:36:10,319
» uh any
>> like give an example. So the um village

1913
02:36:08,800 --> 02:36:14,240
streets the former village treats.
>> Yeah. So it's not more than 20 ft. It's

1914
02:36:12,720 --> 02:36:16,640
not more than 20 ft. So they could come
into village treats and run a fitness

1915
02:36:16,000 --> 02:36:19,040
studio,
>> right? Which

1916
02:36:17,200 --> 02:36:23,359
» under this rule they could do that
>> so small and they could do another one

1917
02:36:21,359 --> 02:36:28,640
next to it. They could do that.
>> So do we know Okay, I'm getting a better

1918
02:36:26,479 --> 02:36:33,040
sense of this now. So do we know which
individual properties

1919
02:36:30,880 --> 02:36:36,720
are more than 20 like are any of
>> I think it's like the I think it's a

1920
02:36:34,880 --> 02:36:40,880
like a basically
>> it's [snorts] Yeah. Um I

1921
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:45,520
» mean theater is probably more than 20
ft. I mean it's a post office, right? I

1922
02:36:43,520 --> 02:36:48,319
mean it'd be large properties.
>> Yeah.

1923
02:36:46,000 --> 02:36:54,240
» Of current of the current building
footprints it was American Family Market

1924
02:36:52,399 --> 02:37:00,960
and I think there was one other that
might qualify like where shift is now.

1925
02:36:58,720 --> 02:37:06,960
» Yeah. Former family.
>> Yeah. made a shift. I was looking we

1926
02:37:04,160 --> 02:37:12,240
were just looking at the um
>> of the of what's considered under 230

1927
02:37:10,160 --> 02:37:17,680
Habford, but yes. So,
>> no, that's what I'm thinking. Okay. Like

1928
02:37:14,800 --> 02:37:22,720
there there's broader like there are
>> there are broader problems with the

1929
02:37:19,520 --> 02:37:26,080
downtown commercial use mix that like
this doesn't address at all. And in

1930
02:37:24,479 --> 02:37:30,960
fact, I think that this kind of just
like says we're out of ideas. please

1931
02:37:28,240 --> 02:37:35,200
come put in the large footprint space.
And and I think that that

1932
02:37:32,720 --> 02:37:42,000
» No, I get it now. I I now that I've seen
the 20 foot, I understand that

1933
02:37:39,280 --> 02:37:45,359
I I thank you. [laughter] You address my
concern.

1934
02:37:42,560 --> 02:37:48,080
» Yeah. I think that that
Yeah.

1935
02:37:46,000 --> 02:37:52,720
» Okay. Yeah.
>> I mean, 12 ft a lot and I'm afraid we're

1936
02:37:50,319 --> 02:37:57,040
going to get not an unintended
consequence of a store saying, "Oh god,

1937
02:37:54,479 --> 02:38:01,920
you got to subtract 12 ft and sell some
stuff. only 12 ft if you're combining

1938
02:38:00,319 --> 02:38:06,160
for the major the but
>> right it can also be a completely

1939
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:08,479
different business
>> right [laughter]

1940
02:38:07,040 --> 02:38:10,319
you can enter from the rear and it would
be fine

1941
02:38:08,880 --> 02:38:15,319
» but you have a lot of small little
studios and things place

1942
02:38:16,800 --> 02:38:23,040
» yeah I mean I guess 12 ft seems like if
you're going to have like sort of a

1943
02:38:20,640 --> 02:38:27,840
counter a front c I think of like the
yoga studio right by my office you know

1944
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:33,760
you don't you don't See behind it
there's sort of a counter up front. I I

1945
02:38:30,240 --> 02:38:37,280
don't I mean well feet is
I guess I don't have a sense of is that

1946
02:38:35,680 --> 02:38:39,359
from me as Cindy is
>> two of these tables.

1947
02:38:39,040 --> 02:38:42,000
» Yeah.
>> Oh yeah. This a 6ft table. Yeah. These

1948
02:38:40,960 --> 02:38:45,680
are probably sixt.
>> I think it basically reflects what their

1949
02:38:44,080 --> 02:38:49,760
other recommendation for the ground
floor on Montgomery Avenue had been

1950
02:38:47,680 --> 02:38:53,600
which I think was for a depth of 12 ft.
I think they were keeping it consistent

1951
02:38:51,280 --> 02:38:58,000
in terms of like what the minimum like
amount of like activated space and

1952
02:38:55,439 --> 02:39:01,840
obviously you can go beyond that but
>> is anybody else uncomfortable with this

1953
02:38:59,520 --> 02:39:06,880
rule? I you know I don't want to spend a
huge amount of time that are

1954
02:39:04,080 --> 02:39:10,560
» no I support it. I I think I I'd have
concerns if it was broader but because

1955
02:39:08,880 --> 02:39:15,520
it's so
>> um specific to Habford Avenue and

1956
02:39:13,040 --> 02:39:19,439
Northworth Avenue I think it makes sense
to keep those as active as

1957
02:39:17,520 --> 02:39:21,520
» possible. Yeah. And we're allowing uses
that are not allowed there today. So

1958
02:39:21,280 --> 02:39:24,520
you're
>> getting

1959
02:39:25,280 --> 02:39:30,560
positive.
>> Okay. My question was more about the

1960
02:39:27,760 --> 02:39:36,000
noise part of this. Um
>> uh I wasn't really clear on whether this

1961
02:39:33,120 --> 02:39:40,960
is meant to relate to the business use.
You know, is this is this put in because

1962
02:39:38,960 --> 02:39:46,399
uh it's a sort of a newly allowed active
use that might generate more noise. Um,

1963
02:39:44,880 --> 02:39:51,120
and
just looking at the wording of it, it

1964
02:39:49,040 --> 02:39:57,120
seems like you would need to insulate
sound between the 12T section and the

1965
02:39:55,120 --> 02:40:00,800
rear section, you know, since you have
since they are different uses since the

1966
02:39:58,720 --> 02:40:05,680
fitness uses in the back and the retail
uses in the front. This this seems to

1967
02:40:03,600 --> 02:40:10,000
say additionally you need to provide
some buffering between those two uses

1968
02:40:08,240 --> 02:40:13,359
even if it's the same operator or the
same.

1969
02:40:11,280 --> 02:40:15,840
» So it's at the law boundary. So it would
have to be on it's measured at the

1970
02:40:15,280 --> 02:40:19,040
boundary.
>> Yeah. And I thought it was along

1971
02:40:16,960 --> 02:40:21,760
boundaries with the res.
>> I don't think I don't think it applies.

1972
02:40:20,160 --> 02:40:24,160
» It says adjacent uses.
>> Mhm.

1973
02:40:22,640 --> 02:40:27,920
» So it's not to be only if the other
place says it's a nuisance. I mean the

1974
02:40:26,880 --> 02:40:30,000
other the other business have to
complain about it.

1975
02:40:28,720 --> 02:40:34,160
» It it's complaint based.
>> Nuisances are complaint driven, right? I

1976
02:40:32,000 --> 02:40:37,840
mean in general the public nuisance law,
somebody has to complain about it. I

1977
02:40:35,600 --> 02:40:41,920
think a business would not be happy as a
gym studio like [snorts]

1978
02:40:40,479 --> 02:40:45,600
and it feels like then you would really
have the problem of retrofitting a space

1979
02:40:44,720 --> 02:40:50,000
for that. Right.
>> I think our

1980
02:40:46,880 --> 02:40:53,520
» preemptively address that
>> I think it's mostly the people that

1981
02:40:51,439 --> 02:40:55,439
would be sharing space with and they're
going to have some kind of deal with

1982
02:40:54,479 --> 02:40:58,720
whatever they share.
>> I think that would be like it would be

1983
02:40:57,520 --> 02:41:02,240
» but I mean you're not allowed to be a
nuisance to your neighbors. So like if

1984
02:41:00,319 --> 02:41:05,760
they were
>> well but this is in there so that heaven

1985
02:41:04,240 --> 02:41:08,080
can take action rather than it being
like a simple

1986
02:41:06,560 --> 02:41:13,280
» just I'm just curious about the wording
because since adjacent uses and since

1987
02:41:09,920 --> 02:41:18,720
we've defined fitness as a new use we're
demanding that the first 12 ft be

1988
02:41:16,160 --> 02:41:22,399
separate from that they become adjacent.
>> Yeah. So if if their business partners

1989
02:41:20,560 --> 02:41:26,399
complained about them, I mean, but they
would, you know, yes, I I understand,

1990
02:41:25,200 --> 02:41:31,280
but like they they would have to be
sympatico with the other use in front.

1991
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:37,120
» But if I hear you saying the front use
is retail, the back use is Jim. So

1992
02:41:34,880 --> 02:41:40,240
soundproof by if the front use
complains, then they send it, but the

1993
02:41:38,960 --> 02:41:44,000
front use would have to complain. Like
we're not going to proactively enforce

1994
02:41:41,680 --> 02:41:46,800
the
front use complaint.

1995
02:41:45,040 --> 02:41:52,800
» Would you like to exempt the front use
from instance? No, I just that the you

1996
02:41:50,080 --> 02:41:57,680
know I was I was thinking about the
where the noise part of this came from

1997
02:41:55,600 --> 02:42:02,000
and the rationale behind it and we had
had not had a chance to talk about this

1998
02:41:59,280 --> 02:42:05,120
before so I thought no it's a good
question to bring up the first thing I

1999
02:42:03,200 --> 02:42:08,880
thought of when I thought of this was um
what was the uh crossfit like I remember

2000
02:42:07,520 --> 02:42:11,520
this being a big thing when I was
working at council office like people

2001
02:42:10,080 --> 02:42:17,040
would come because the crossfit people
were throwing the bars and stuff and

2002
02:42:13,760 --> 02:42:21,280
like it became a noise like nuisance
issue So, that's kind of what I had

2003
02:42:19,680 --> 02:42:25,920
thought of when I was looking at like
why this would be included in general

2004
02:42:22,960 --> 02:42:30,240
performance standards. Um,
>> yeah, I mean, I assumed it was like if

2005
02:42:27,680 --> 02:42:34,720
you're doing something with music that's
thump thump, you know, a rhythmic thing,

2006
02:42:32,560 --> 02:42:39,359
you certainly are. That [snorts] is
actually a great example because the

2007
02:42:36,880 --> 02:42:43,680
reality is walking down the street you
don't hear the thump and the music which

2008
02:42:41,520 --> 02:42:47,473
is probably why then they're saying yes
the thump th something has to be now

2009
02:42:45,680 --> 02:42:50,399
you've just convinced me of the 12 ft
[laughter]

2010
02:42:49,040 --> 02:42:53,600
» right right
>> because you don't want to be walking

2011
02:42:51,840 --> 02:42:58,240
down the street hearing the crossfit the
music the whatever so it should be

2012
02:42:57,120 --> 02:43:02,240
» you know it doesn't matter if the
cashier doesn't find it the people

2013
02:43:00,080 --> 02:43:04,240
walking down the street
>> right I

2014
02:43:02,800 --> 02:43:08,319
» I think I think it is objective
standards for Kevin is the reason why

2015
02:43:05,680 --> 02:43:12,640
it's in there for for officer to
determine whether something is

2016
02:43:11,040 --> 02:43:17,359
in fact a problem.
>> Yeah, you did just

2017
02:43:15,840 --> 02:43:20,720
» and are these noise standards are they
ported over from

2018
02:43:19,200 --> 02:43:24,080
» there's another provision and it's about
industrial uses. It's the same noise

2019
02:43:22,560 --> 02:43:29,920
standards for industrial uses.
>> And so this is just applying them

2020
02:43:26,319 --> 02:43:35,840
» to the uses. Okay.
So the that table is already in our

2021
02:43:33,040 --> 02:43:38,800
» in our code.
>> Okay.

2022
02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:42,479
» Yeah. So sounds like we're good.
>> All right. But then the only other piece

2023
02:43:40,319 --> 02:43:46,000
which we didn't we discussed before, but
I just wanted to call that out just so

2024
02:43:43,840 --> 02:43:50,240
everyone's aware was the um the
restaurant small restaurant um gets

2025
02:43:48,399 --> 02:43:55,120
matched up with the rest of retail for
the the parking. So that just

2026
02:43:53,920 --> 02:43:57,120
Okay.
>> All right. So everyone's okay with this?

2027
02:43:56,560 --> 02:44:02,359
» Yep.
>> All right. Sounds like we're good.

2028
02:44:02,960 --> 02:44:09,120
» Okay. So, we'll have this then uh so
hearing no changes.

2029
02:44:07,120 --> 02:44:12,720
» Uh [snorts] we will see this then before
us for authorization to advertise at the

2030
02:44:11,439 --> 02:44:15,243
September business meeting.
>> Correct.

2031
02:44:13,200 --> 02:44:17,263
» Okay.
[clears throat]

2032
02:44:17,279 --> 02:44:25,120
» Budget.
>> All right. Um, so the budget discussion

2033
02:44:23,600 --> 02:44:30,240
that I wanted to have with you tonight
is uh more just to let you know about

2034
02:44:28,000 --> 02:44:34,240
the process and timelines and how we're
going to proceed with this. Um, I do not

2035
02:44:32,240 --> 02:44:37,840
have a budget for you yet to look at.
Um, I will soon. Um,

2036
02:44:36,479 --> 02:44:40,800
» understand there's been some turnover in
the office.

2037
02:44:39,279 --> 02:44:45,439
» Yeah, I've been spending my week um
entering in PICO bills into QuickBooks

2038
02:44:42,960 --> 02:44:52,720
um instead of working on the budget. So
um so what we're looking at moving

2039
02:44:47,680 --> 02:44:56,960
forward is um that we
began in August. So once the CIP was

2040
02:44:55,120 --> 02:45:02,399
adopted, I did start pivoting to the to
the budget. Um internally obviously

2041
02:44:59,680 --> 02:45:07,200
we've had some uh kind of staff turnover
has has limited some of that. Um, but I

2042
02:45:04,800 --> 02:45:11,760
have started having some uh preliminary
staff meetings to review some budget

2043
02:45:09,279 --> 02:45:17,200
requests and I have sent out a request
for departmental budgets to all of our

2044
02:45:15,120 --> 02:45:23,520
internal departments and community
partners um and all of our boards and

2045
02:45:20,880 --> 02:45:29,920
commissions uh to get their budget
requests in by um by September. So, in a

2046
02:45:28,000 --> 02:45:37,760
couple weeks I'll have all of those and
then we'll be able to look at those in

2047
02:45:31,439 --> 02:45:43,200
earnest. Um, in October I plan to uh set
up our small group meetings with council

2048
02:45:40,640 --> 02:45:46,800
and mayor. Um, so by that point we'll
have all of our budget requests. So

2049
02:45:44,560 --> 02:45:52,000
we'll have our preliminary budget laid
out, ready to go. Um, we'll get

2050
02:45:48,960 --> 02:45:56,160
additional feedback uh from council.
Those small group meetings, uh, they

2051
02:45:53,920 --> 02:45:59,920
will not meet quorum requirements. Um,
so we'll we'll break them up. We'll meet

2052
02:45:58,240 --> 02:46:05,120
with you guys. This is your opportunity
to ask questions, take deep dives,

2053
02:46:03,040 --> 02:46:10,000
anything you want to know. Um,
understand that's going to be the the

2054
02:46:07,359 --> 02:46:13,920
primary kind of meet for council to
really dive into some of those

2055
02:46:11,359 --> 02:46:18,080
specifics. Um, happy to talk about those
at public meetings, but this will help

2056
02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:24,160
to kind of keep the process moving
moving along. Um,

2057
02:46:21,920 --> 02:46:29,120
the budget obviously once we have it uh
open to the public, we can start taking

2058
02:46:25,760 --> 02:46:32,560
some uh public feedback as well.
And then the budget will just be

2059
02:46:30,640 --> 02:46:38,800
continued uh to be refined throughout
October. And then the intent is that I

2060
02:46:36,800 --> 02:46:46,160
will have a final budget to present to
you at the council work session.

2061
02:46:42,080 --> 02:46:51,279
And then we will move to advertise the
final budget um with the intent to

2062
02:46:48,720 --> 02:46:54,720
actually adopt the final budget earlier
than normal this year. So we want to

2063
02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:59,840
adopt our final budget by November
business meeting this year. So, that is

2064
02:46:57,520 --> 02:47:03,439
the goal. That is the timeline. So,
we're going to be diving right in. Um, I

2065
02:47:01,920 --> 02:47:08,960
think we did a lot of really good work
on the budget last year. Um, I think

2066
02:47:05,760 --> 02:47:13,520
we're going to have um a a good go of it
again this year. We're maintaining a lot

2067
02:47:11,600 --> 02:47:18,880
of status quo things. So, really the
main thing that I want to just call out

2068
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:23,600
is as we get into the budget season now,
as we discussed in the CIP, we had those

2069
02:47:21,359 --> 02:47:27,279
projects that we identified in the CIP.
this is now where we actually put our

2070
02:47:25,680 --> 02:47:34,720
money
in where our mouth is. Um,

2071
02:47:31,680 --> 02:47:40,000
so that's something that I want you all
to um kind of review again the CIP, take

2072
02:47:37,920 --> 02:47:44,479
a look at what you actually want to
spend on those capital projects for next

2073
02:47:42,640 --> 02:47:49,760
year. And that's going to be a really
kind of key decision-m point that I will

2074
02:47:47,680 --> 02:47:55,040
need council's feedback on. Otherwise, a
lot of it is just administrative um

2075
02:47:52,240 --> 02:48:00,000
keeping the lights on uh budget. So,
that's kind of preset by what rates are,

2076
02:47:57,680 --> 02:48:04,240
how much energy costs, increases to
health insurance. So, we're going to see

2077
02:48:01,359 --> 02:48:09,200
costs increase. Um we're seeing impacts
from tariffs, from rising insurance

2078
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:12,800
costs.
So, we kind of see some of those

2079
02:48:10,880 --> 02:48:16,960
incremental rises. Those are expected
and normal. Um maybe not the tariffs,

2080
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:22,800
but the other costs are expected and
normal. And um so you'll you'll see

2081
02:48:20,560 --> 02:48:26,160
you'll see those budget numbers. Uh but
really where we're going to see a lot of

2082
02:48:24,319 --> 02:48:30,160
flexibility and where we want to put
those budget numbers is going to be in

2083
02:48:27,439 --> 02:48:34,319
our capital plan. Um also just to kind
of give a preview, we've talked about

2084
02:48:31,840 --> 02:48:38,560
this already, but just to remind you, we
did hear from Lower Merid earlier this

2085
02:48:36,160 --> 02:48:43,840
year. They got a reassessment from the
Philadelphia uh water department. Their

2086
02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:47,200
rates increased, so our rates are going
to increase. So, we will have to do an

2087
02:48:45,600 --> 02:48:51,680
increase in our sewer rate again this
year uh to accommodate the um increased

2088
02:48:50,080 --> 02:48:56,479
cost that we're that we're getting from
Laura Marion who's getting them from

2089
02:48:53,120 --> 02:49:00,479
Philadelphia. So, um it's it's trickling
down the line, pun intended.

2090
02:48:58,399 --> 02:49:06,000
» Yeah. [laughter]
>> Um

2091
02:49:02,240 --> 02:49:10,560
otherwise, um we are entering into our
final year of 2027 is going to be our

2092
02:49:08,080 --> 02:49:14,960
final year for our trash contract. Um,
so we do have a preset 4-year contract

2093
02:49:12,960 --> 02:49:20,560
that expires at the end of 2027 with
Muscog. So our budget for our solid

2094
02:49:17,760 --> 02:49:25,359
waste fund is going to be what you
expect based on what our contract

2095
02:49:22,319 --> 02:49:31,040
numbers are. Um, but we have started uh
those discussions and analysis

2096
02:49:28,399 --> 02:49:35,600
to see what uh Laura Mary might be able
to do for us as a trash hauler. And then

2097
02:49:33,680 --> 02:49:40,720
uh we'll be looking at putting a bid
together again next year uh for a trash

2098
02:49:38,080 --> 02:49:43,439
hauler if if we're not able to work
something out with Laura Marion or we

2099
02:49:42,000 --> 02:49:49,200
decide to have some um additional
comparisons. So in terms of kind of some

2100
02:49:45,920 --> 02:49:54,880
long-term thinking um of staff work
products, we're planning on applying for

2101
02:49:51,040 --> 02:50:02,080
grants next year for the um playground.
We're planning on doing a um RFP for a

2102
02:49:59,200 --> 02:50:05,840
new trash contract. Um, so we got a
couple big things coming on and those

2103
02:50:03,359 --> 02:50:10,720
are going to be uh, you know, spring and
early summer timelines for some of those

2104
02:50:08,080 --> 02:50:15,920
big efforts next year. So that doesn't
impact the budget necessarily uh, for a

2105
02:50:12,960 --> 02:50:20,479
trash contract for for 2027, but just to
give you a preview of things to come.

2106
02:50:18,640 --> 02:50:26,000
Um, those are kind of the main things.
So our sewer solid waste um, and our

2107
02:50:24,479 --> 02:50:29,760
general fund and our capital fund are
going to be kind of the big ones. Um,

2108
02:50:27,840 --> 02:50:33,279
our highway aid, those that's our liquid
fuels funding. we get money from the

2109
02:50:31,359 --> 02:50:36,960
state for that. Um, so we will be
looking ahead at the program that we

2110
02:50:34,960 --> 02:50:42,160
want to do for next year for our road
paving. We will actually likely need to

2111
02:50:39,680 --> 02:50:46,960
seed some money into that fund from our
general fund. Um, since the the money

2112
02:50:45,279 --> 02:50:50,640
from the state only covers about half of
the scope of work uh of what we

2113
02:50:49,200 --> 02:50:54,720
typically plan to do. So, if we're going
to be doing a half mile of road, which

2114
02:50:52,240 --> 02:50:57,760
is what our game plan is, uh, we'll
probably need to take a look at putting

2115
02:50:56,160 --> 02:51:01,760
some extra money into our highway aid
fund. Again, all of this will be in the

2116
02:50:59,760 --> 02:51:06,160
budget documents that come to you, but
just kind of little previews of things

2117
02:51:04,800 --> 02:51:10,640
to come.
>> This is what I think about as I'm

2118
02:51:08,000 --> 02:51:15,120
brushing my teeth every day. [laughter]
>> How are we going to put the HA fund

2119
02:51:12,479 --> 02:51:19,279
together?
>> Questions about the uh budget process.

2120
02:51:18,160 --> 02:51:23,840
All right. So, it sounds like we'll have
small group meetings coming up next.

2121
02:51:21,680 --> 02:51:29,040
» Yes. Um, so we'll have, like I said,
we're going to do um, uh, get our

2122
02:51:26,399 --> 02:51:32,880
preliminary budget requests in. Um, so I
hope to have a kind of loosely

2123
02:51:30,960 --> 02:51:37,439
structured preliminary budget. Some of
the funds that we know ahead of time

2124
02:51:35,040 --> 02:51:40,640
that we can anticipate those costs. Um,
I should actually have more or less

2125
02:51:39,040 --> 02:51:44,479
final numbers for you by September.
Those are already well underway. Um, the

2126
02:51:42,720 --> 02:51:48,479
general fund and the capital fund are
going to be the real malleable ones. So

2127
02:51:46,479 --> 02:51:52,880
we'll have a loose kind of structure for
that in September. And then we'll have

2128
02:51:50,000 --> 02:51:55,920
our um small group meetings after the
September meeting kind of leading into

2129
02:51:54,399 --> 02:51:59,600
the October workshop.
>> Um and then we'll continue to refine.

2130
02:51:58,080 --> 02:52:03,200
» All right.
>> Okay. Thanks, Maggie.

2131
02:52:00,960 --> 02:52:07,040
» Thank you.
>> Uh we do have one consideration item

2132
02:52:05,279 --> 02:52:12,720
tonight, which is the revised bid award
for the storm water bumpouts.

2133
02:52:10,319 --> 02:52:17,279
» Move to approve the revised bid award
for the storm water bump.

2134
02:52:14,160 --> 02:52:22,560
» Second. Okay.
And just briefly to explain why this has

2135
02:52:19,439 --> 02:52:27,520
to happen. So after we um amended the
bid scope at last month's meeting, it

2136
02:52:26,080 --> 02:52:31,680
turns out that when we took that scope
of work out of the bid awards, a

2137
02:52:29,680 --> 02:52:35,680
different contractor became the lower
bidder.

2138
02:52:32,800 --> 02:52:42,720
» Um so we just
>> so we just for uh crossing our tees um

2139
02:52:39,920 --> 02:52:45,600
have to rebid this to now the lowest
responsible bidder. Reward it.

2140
02:52:44,880 --> 02:52:50,240
» Reward it.
>> I'm sorry. Yeah.

2141
02:52:46,560 --> 02:52:54,160
» Not rebid. Reward. Um and so the the
contractor is actually going to be

2142
02:52:51,680 --> 02:52:57,520
Calone who has done our um bumpouts in
the past and is very familiar with the

2143
02:52:55,520 --> 02:53:02,640
process. So they're a known entity as
well, which is um a a plus.

2144
02:53:01,120 --> 02:53:05,279
» Since we're taking action, should we see
if anyone wants to

2145
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:07,600
» Yeah. I'll let any council members who
want to speak? Anybody have something to

2146
02:53:07,200 --> 02:53:10,880
say here?
>> They also do our sidewalks, right?

2147
02:53:09,760 --> 02:53:15,120
» Yeah, they've done a lot of work.
>> Yeah, they've done a lot.

2148
02:53:13,439 --> 02:53:20,000
Okay. So, this is an action item. So, if
any if anybody in the audience wants to

2149
02:53:17,439 --> 02:53:26,000
um make a comment about this stormwater
bumpout revised bid.

2150
02:53:22,640 --> 02:53:30,720
Anybody online wish to make a comment?
Okay. We will have public comment

2151
02:53:27,359 --> 02:53:36,160
shortly, but general public comment. Uh
okay. So, let's vote on the revised bid

2152
02:53:34,319 --> 02:53:41,279
award for the storm water bumpouts. All
those in favor of awarding the bid to

2153
02:53:37,520 --> 02:53:47,200
Caloney. Okay.
All right. Thanks everyone. And uh

2154
02:53:44,080 --> 02:53:53,680
committee reports
FNAF FNA has not met since the last

2155
02:53:50,800 --> 02:53:56,800
report. I anticipate we're going to um
what are we going to talk? Are we going

2156
02:53:55,200 --> 02:54:02,160
to we going to get to the budget by that
point or

2157
02:53:58,720 --> 02:54:05,200
» uh we yeah again the the smaller funds
um I think we should have some of those

2158
02:54:03,600 --> 02:54:08,640
yeah preliminary budget numbers ready to
start taking a look at.

2159
02:54:06,160 --> 02:54:13,920
» Okay. Okay. And we're also uh just
reminding you our new um boards and

2160
02:54:11,680 --> 02:54:18,319
commissions reporting structure calls
for FNA to make contact with all the

2161
02:54:17,120 --> 02:54:23,439
boards and commissions that don't
regularly report to a committee. So

2162
02:54:21,439 --> 02:54:27,600
» uh I got one from uh zoning hearing
board this morning. I'm going to follow

2163
02:54:25,600 --> 02:54:32,240
up with whatever it is the other four or
five that do that.

2164
02:54:30,479 --> 02:54:37,520
give my compliments to Naida for taking
care of their deferred uh business.

2165
02:54:36,190 --> 02:54:40,920
[snorts] Guess I'm not really one of our
boards committ

2166
02:54:44,399 --> 02:54:51,439
since you last met.
>> Public health and safety meets next

2167
02:54:49,040 --> 02:54:54,640
week. So we have not met since
>> last council meeting.

2168
02:54:53,040 --> 02:54:59,359
» Okay.
>> All right. We will move on then to

2169
02:54:56,560 --> 02:55:02,880
public comment. So, apologies for
putting it at [snorts] the end of a long

2170
02:55:00,640 --> 02:55:06,399
meeting, but it is what it is. So,
public comments limited to 3 minutes.

2171
02:55:04,479 --> 02:55:10,920
Please give your name and your address
and then you can begin your public

2172
02:55:07,920 --> 02:55:10,920
comment.

2173
02:55:10,960 --> 02:55:18,479
Barbara
Barbara Forner, 415 Conway. Um, hi

2174
02:55:16,800 --> 02:55:23,680
everybody.
I'm having deja vu. Um,

2175
02:55:21,680 --> 02:55:28,800
I just wanted to make a couple comments
on the 2011 sale property. I mean,

2176
02:55:25,760 --> 02:55:32,160
that's near and dear to my heart. It was
uh I was really thrilled to be one of

2177
02:55:30,479 --> 02:55:35,760
the council members to have to vote to
accept the school district saying, "We

2178
02:55:34,240 --> 02:55:42,279
don't want responsibility or don't want
any claim to this building. You guys can

2179
02:55:37,680 --> 02:55:42,279
have not knowing."

2180
02:55:42,346 --> 02:55:48,800
[laughter]
So, yeah, and I spent a good bit of my

2181
02:55:46,880 --> 02:55:53,680
time on council the second time dealing
to myself.

2182
02:55:50,240 --> 02:55:58,160
Um, I think it really is imperative to
proceed with the RFP process. Now, it

2183
02:55:56,560 --> 02:56:01,920
kicking this can down the road any
further not going to get any better.

2184
02:55:59,680 --> 02:56:08,160
It's just going to get worse. And I
think it's vital to use a consultant for

2185
02:56:04,800 --> 02:56:13,279
this work. To think that a municipality
of our size would be so fortunate as to

2186
02:56:11,120 --> 02:56:18,479
find a burough manager who could manage
a process like this, write the RFP, do

2187
02:56:15,600 --> 02:56:23,279
all the scoring, that's that's a
unicorn. And you know, no shade on

2188
02:56:21,040 --> 02:56:26,960
Maggie, she's great, but good Evans, you
know, so we need to be sensible about

2189
02:56:25,359 --> 02:56:31,359
that and say, "Yeah, we need help for
this." Um,

2190
02:56:29,359 --> 02:56:36,319
I'm concerned
that you that the process that was laid

2191
02:56:34,479 --> 02:56:41,520
out in December
has not been followed in the sense that

2192
02:56:38,720 --> 02:56:46,399
you allowed a presentation to be made
outside that process. I don't feel like

2193
02:56:44,000 --> 02:56:50,640
that's fair or transparent to the people
who submitted letters of intent in

2194
02:56:48,319 --> 02:56:54,880
December or somebody that might respond
to the RFP down the road. So, I would

2195
02:56:52,960 --> 02:56:58,720
just, you know, if you want to continue
to allow that, I think you need to let

2196
02:56:57,520 --> 02:57:04,240
those other people come and make
presentations outside the RFP process,

2197
02:57:00,800 --> 02:57:10,479
too. So, I just wanted to know that. Um,
and I just don't think it makes sense to

2198
02:57:08,160 --> 02:57:16,080
go with anything that kind of maintains
the status quo. We really need to get

2199
02:57:13,120 --> 02:57:20,880
out of the business of being a landlord.
Every iteration of council since

2200
02:57:18,000 --> 02:57:26,880
December of 2017, every bureau manager
has said the same thing. We cannot

2201
02:57:23,279 --> 02:57:29,200
continue to be a landlord. And
if you can find a developer

2202
02:57:28,457 --> 02:57:35,680
[clears throat]
who wants to apply for all these grants,

2203
02:57:32,399 --> 02:57:40,640
who wants to do the programming, I love
some of the ideas that could be in in

2204
02:57:38,800 --> 02:57:45,040
this space, you know, like the artist
studios or maker spaces or whatever, but

2205
02:57:43,200 --> 02:57:49,840
you need somebody who's running those
programs. It's not going to be somebody

2206
02:57:47,439 --> 02:57:53,520
who's the burrow employee. We don't have
the bandwidth for that. So I think you

2207
02:57:52,080 --> 02:57:58,479
really, you know, we really need to
think about what can we take on and what

2208
02:57:56,160 --> 02:58:04,080
can we do and I think we really have to
say we can't do that. We need a

2209
02:58:01,840 --> 02:58:06,960
developer or you know somebody who's
willing to take that on. [clears throat]

2210
02:58:05,680 --> 02:58:11,279
The last thing I want to say is I want
to say none of this is a commentary on

2211
02:58:08,560 --> 02:58:14,963
Refugeio. I love this company and I want
them to be in Arbor forever. They remade

2212
02:58:13,920 --> 02:58:17,279
my front yard and I
[cough and clears throat] have my

2213
02:58:15,600 --> 02:58:22,560
backyard.
Anybody who wants to see how they can

2214
02:58:20,640 --> 02:58:28,720
have more storm water retained on their
property, have um sequester more carbon

2215
02:58:26,399 --> 02:58:34,560
on their property and have wildlife
habitats come by 415 Conway, take a look

2216
02:58:31,680 --> 02:58:42,000
at my yard, knock on my door, ask me
questions. I I it's like the best. So,

2217
02:58:39,279 --> 02:58:45,094
» thank you. And uh just as to process, I
will note that our current rules of

2218
02:58:43,439 --> 02:58:48,960
council allow two council members
[clears throat] to put an item on the

2219
02:58:46,080 --> 02:58:51,520
agenda. So that's that was the process
that was following you.

2220
02:58:49,920 --> 02:58:56,240
» Just want you to know it doesn't seem
fair to me to other folks.

2221
02:58:54,080 --> 02:59:05,359
» Okay.
>> Okay. Um uh I'm blessing at 243 North

2222
02:59:00,880 --> 02:59:09,680
Lynwood Avenue. Um so I'm just here a
war graduate narrative resident, a

2223
02:59:07,600 --> 02:59:15,439
member of the MCO 30% project which
advocates for housing for all across the

2224
02:59:12,000 --> 02:59:20,720
county. And I'm just um here to
hopefully speak to um the housing

2225
02:59:18,560 --> 02:59:27,680
portion being a center portion, you
know, not excluding any other ideas, but

2226
02:59:23,040 --> 02:59:33,200
just being a a central portion of um for
uh the property at 2011 say buying. And

2227
02:59:30,479 --> 02:59:37,680
so just giving a different perspective,
speaking um from the perspective of

2228
02:59:35,359 --> 02:59:41,920
someone who has experienced homelessness
and as someone who's grown up in this

2229
02:59:39,600 --> 02:59:48,640
community, left to go to college, came
back, Nworth is a bit cheaper than New

2230
02:59:44,720 --> 02:59:53,600
York City. and I would love to stay and
continue contributing to this place that

2231
02:59:50,640 --> 02:59:58,000
I love, but like many fellow Gen Z
people, this desire is becoming

2232
02:59:55,600 --> 03:00:06,080
increasingly out of reach despite having
IV degree and working full-time. Um, and

2233
03:00:01,600 --> 03:00:09,520
so, um, I used to volunteer at the food
bank, spend a lot of time on that

2234
03:00:07,840 --> 03:00:14,560
property, which has a lot of potential
as we've heard and seen today. And I

2235
03:00:12,399 --> 03:00:19,760
think that Narborth has an incredible
opportunity to turn this space into a

2236
03:00:16,399 --> 03:00:24,800
thriving space um while providing safe,
stable housing for members of our

2237
03:00:22,000 --> 03:00:28,720
community, whether it's newly graduated
students starting um out in career,

2238
03:00:27,040 --> 03:00:34,479
young families seeking a safe
environment, seniors wanting to stay in

2239
03:00:30,640 --> 03:00:40,240
Narbor, and can be a model um that can
be done in the midst of this countrywide

2240
03:00:37,279 --> 03:00:45,359
affordability crisis um while
maintaining the diversity of of our norm

2241
03:00:42,319 --> 03:00:51,040
community where community uses uh other
community uses can be complimentary to

2242
03:00:47,359 --> 03:00:55,359
that. So um that's why
>> nice thank you

2243
03:00:54,160 --> 03:01:00,479
they're close to being neighbors it
sounds like. So [laughter and snorts]

2244
03:00:58,000 --> 03:01:03,760
I'll talk to you after the game. Uh okay
that's it for folks in this room I'm

2245
03:01:02,160 --> 03:01:07,840
assuming or Jeff did you want to make a
public comment. Okay let's move to folks

2246
03:01:05,920 --> 03:01:13,600
online. So if you'd like to make a
public comment, please uh raise your

2247
03:01:10,160 --> 03:01:17,160
hand and then we will call on you.
Anybody remaining?

2248
03:01:18,000 --> 03:01:22,680
Anybody online wish to make a public
comment?

2249
03:01:24,160 --> 03:01:33,840
Okay, seeing none, uh I'm going to close
public comment at this time. And we do

2250
03:01:31,680 --> 03:01:36,640
not have an executive session scheduled
after this meeting. So I'll take a

2251
03:01:35,840 --> 03:01:38,080
motion to adjourn.
>> No, we do.

2252
03:01:37,520 --> 03:01:40,240
» We do.
>> Yeah.

2253
03:01:38,720 --> 03:01:43,120
» Sorry. We do have a second session
during which we will discuss [laughter]

2254
03:01:42,240 --> 03:01:46,560
» personnel matters.
>> Personel matters. I apologize.

2255
03:01:45,040 --> 03:01:49,920
» We do have an executive session. Motion
to adjourn. Okay. We will not be coming

2256
03:01:48,800 --> 03:01:53,200
into session after meeting. There's a
motion to a second.

2257
03:01:51,439 --> 03:01:57,760
» Any discussion? All right. Voting to
adjurnn. All those in favor of

2258
03:01:54,160 --> 03:02:02,840
adjournment. Thanks everybody.
My apologies. I did not remember

2259
03:01:59,631 --> 03:02:02,840
[laughter] the meeting.