[0:00] in so many ways. Lord, especially we
want to thank you for our town that we
[0:04] live in. We want to thank thee for those
who serve so faithfully in the offices
[0:09] of the town. We ask that you give them
wisdom to be able to decide those things
[0:13] which come before them as they go
through these meetings. Lord, be with
[0:17] them tonight and be with all of the town
employees and workers so that they would
[0:22] work to the best of their ability. And
Lord, even be with the people who
[0:27] sometimes might be disgruntled about
this or that, but give them patience and
[0:30] understanding and and so that we can all
continue as citizens of this town to
[0:34] work together and go forward according
to that which is right. Lord, bless each
[0:40] of us in in every way. And we thank thee
once again for for this tongue, for the
[0:47] servants, but most of all, we thank thee
for Jesus who his suffering death on a
[0:52] cross. His glor
glorious resurrection. Through that we
[0:56] have eternal life. In Jesus name we
pray.
[0:58] » Amen.
>> Thank you. [clears throat]
[1:02] » Thanks John.
[1:05] » Thank you.
>> All right.
[1:07] » Have a good night.
[1:16] » How you doing?
>> Good afternoon chief.
[1:18] » Evening.
>> That water looks tasty.
[1:22] » Yeah.
rather be swimming, but here I am.
[1:27] [laughter]
>> Rather be swimming.
[1:28] » Yeah, I love to swim.
>> Love being in the lake of the water.
[1:32] » Love it.
>> Water's nice and warm this time of year.
[1:36] Still,
>> you know, peak.
[1:40] » Yeah, I was out. It was 72 to 73 all
day.
[1:44] » Really?
>> Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah.
[1:47] » Yeah. We were out
>> out on the boat.
[1:49] » Yeah.
>> First time in two years. Jeez, really
[1:52] got it done.
>> Yeah, we've got out there.
[1:54] » Yeah, nice. Awesome.
>> Yeah, same.
[1:55] » Kids had a blast.
>> Oh, cool.
[1:57] » Yeah, it's one of my favorite things
about boing.
[2:00] » Yeah,
>> it's definitely
[2:03] » It's uh
>> good time.
[2:05] » What did they What do they say? It's
long periods of relaxed enjoyment
[2:12] interrupted by [laughter]
brief moments of full adrenaline.
[2:17] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. You get that.
[2:19] » Yeah. and money, right?
>> Oh, and money. Yeah.
[2:24] » But they're worth it.
[2:31] » Just to remind you,
>> in the
[2:36] select office.
>> Oh,
[2:39] » I just did. You were looking for a
minute ago.
[2:41] » Oh, yeah. He's
>> He's wandering around the building
[2:43] somewhere.
>> Well, he'll be here.
[2:47] » Yeah.
>> Okay.
[2:48] Yeah, he just pulled in.
>> Yeah, I'll wait to get
[2:53] [clears throat]
>> Yeah, I just want to remind you to sign
[2:55] the stuff in the drawer because there's
two pay things in there and the payroll
[2:59] is in there. The AP will be in there
tomorrow.
[3:02] » Yeah.
>> If you have an ability to sign up
[3:06] tomorrow, that' be great.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
[3:11] » That is how it has been going.
[3:35] Hey, good evening. Hi, everybody.
>> Good afternoon. Evening.
[3:42] » Good night.
>> How are you?
[3:47] » Hi, Stephanie. Hi.
[4:06] » [snorts]
[5:01] » All right.
Can we
[5:04] open this meeting with the pledge?
[5:09] Pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America and to the
[5:14] republic for which it stands. One nation
under God, indivisible, with liberty and
[5:21] justice for all.
[5:24] » All right. Good evening everyone.
[5:28] Once again, a light agenda.
I think these light agendas are going to
[5:36] be a thing of the past soon as we head
into budget season.
[5:40] So, we'll enjoy it. While we have it, uh
we have Chief Ael here to discuss uh
[5:50] police detail billing rates and some
proposed changes both to the rates and
[5:56] to the ordinance.
And
[6:00] we have Stephanie
just here
[6:05] as well as Mary. Okay. And then we have
round table.
[6:13] » Further ado to not delay the chief. Why
don't you do him first?
[6:17] » Yeah, that's I think that's all we have.
Oh, on our agenda printed off it says
[6:21] update from administrator. But I would
like to sure.
[6:24] » Yeah, as usual.
[6:30] the chief wants to go over his.
[6:35] » Yep. Floor is yours.
>> Okay. Thank you. Uh yeah, I just was
[6:39] want to come before the board and the
town today just to propose um some
[6:43] amendments uh that hopefully will be
adopted to our town of Winter's town
[6:48] ordinance, please details. Um this
ordinance was originally adopted in
[6:53] October of 202.
Yeah, almost a few years ago. Um, my
[7:00] main focus this time as I did draft the
letter for the board. Um, just
[7:05] explaining what our billing fee
structure was in October 23 and then
[7:09] what I'm proposing u for the fee
structure and uh for this um adoption if
[7:15] taken. So 2026 do we have that letter?
>> This right here.
[7:20] » Yep.
>> Is that the bottom?
[7:21] » Correct.
>> The bottom is 2026.
[7:23] » Correct. Yes sir. Yeah. So the top two
tables are our current uh fees and the
[7:28] bottom two tables would be the proposed
changes to our fees.
[7:35] And most of the changes that would be uh
that I'm requesting would affect um
[7:41] section 6.0
or section six of the detail rates. Um
[7:47] and I did draft a proposal of the
changes and uh they should be in red and
[7:52] I think I gave them to It'll be in
faint.
[7:56] » It'll be in faint on years. These are
the changes.
[8:00] » Basically,
>> so that's a 60.
[8:03] » Yeah. On section six.
>> Okay.
[8:05] » Yeah.
>> And I tried to do it a little bit more
[8:08] detailed this time because some of the
um businesses that were using our
[8:13] services um they would we came up with
some regular questions. I'm like, well,
[8:17] maybe I can make it more clear in detail
ordinance what the fee structure is. So
[8:21] that's why I did that in a table um
underneath uh 6.5 with the proposed new
[8:27] rates. Um so that that's what it is. Um
I'm proposing that the the detail rate
[8:34] paid to the officers go up to $72 $60
the admin fee of 25 cruiser fee of 16
[8:40] with a total billing of $113 an hour. Um
that's up um $13 from the 2023
[8:49] um uh costs. Um and then on the um
after eight hours holidays and weekends
[8:57] pay um that went from $90 an hour, 37.50
50 for admin, 15 for cruiser for a total
[9:04] of 142 uh to a new total of $100 for the
office of admin fee is 33 cruiser 16 a
[9:12] total of 149 so up $7.
So those are really the proposal of the
[9:19] changes and the reason for my request is
you know officers take these as a extra
[9:25] duty pay um paid primarily by private
companies or um establishments or groups
[9:34] um and to stay competitive what with
what other um agencies are offering um
[9:42] would keep us in the realm. I did a
study um
[9:46] with eight other agencies and what their
current uh officer rate is. So,
[9:50] Hillsboro County Sheriff Office pays the
officers get 94 an hour. Ring is 75 an
[9:55] hour. Francis P 75 an hour. Peter 74 an
hour. Greenfield 70. Jeffrey 6966,
[10:02] Temple Green was 65, Bolton PD 65.
That's $587 and change divided by eight
[10:09] is the average of $7345
was the average. So that's how I came up
[10:15] with $72. Stick around the average.
[10:20] » What were
Could you read them off a little slower?
[10:23] » Yeah, you want
>> I just like Oh, you have a print out of
[10:26] it.
>> Oh, okay.
[10:27] » This one's cleaner. I give you this one.
This one has a bunch of
[10:33] » Thank you.
[10:53] So there was none of these.
We were
[11:00] quite a bit lower.
>> Yeah.
[11:01] » What about for the other Do you want to
take a look at that,
[11:04] » please?
>> For the other um
[11:08] » aspects of the fees.
>> Yeah.
[11:10] » Yeah. Very similar.
>> Crew.
[11:12] » Cruiser.
>> Yeah. I'm seeing somewhere between $10
[11:15] and $20 an hour for the cruisers with
the other agencies.
[11:26] Is the admin fee correct or
>> um which
[11:30] » I mean I think
>> Yep.
[11:33] » I think we're at we're at 25 but I think
you're
[11:37] Is it because it's a different u I think
the current admin position is higher
[11:42] than that.
>> Yeah, that's just the fees that the town
[11:45] pays is get gets paid for and part of
the detail structure. So we're not
[11:49] paying the admin that we're getting that
money in. Okay.
[11:52] » Right.
>> Is is that when it comes back into the
[11:54] town?
>> I think it's like an overhead.
[11:56] » Yeah. Cover that.
>> So that would cover
[11:59] accounting and
>> it covers Yeah. the retire somebody's
[12:04] got to answer the phone, make the
schedule, reach out to things just
[12:09] estimate overhead.
Oh [clears throat]
[12:13] yeah.
[12:20] » And then so parts
[12:25] everything you see in that detailed
building construction is what's coming
[12:28] in to the agency for
in the town.
[12:34] So this this billing
[12:40] will it be how does this work? You'll
contact say Eversource. They're probably
[12:45] one of the most common.
>> Yeah. Aspen, Eversource, power
[12:48] companies. Yeah.
>> So do you contact them, they contact
[12:52] you?
>> No, they typically reach out to us. So
[12:54] they reach out to us and they'll say,
"Hey, like today they were working uh in
[12:58] town
>> and they said, "Hey, we're going to have
[13:00] a project on Turnpike Road at 572. uh
we're going to be in the road uh
[13:05] requesting a police detail. Um they're
very good about it. They call all the
[13:09] time like when they're going to have
road work. Um
[13:12] we'll say, "Okay, we'll we'll see if we
can fill it." So we get that detailed
[13:17] request. We have a schedule. We call um
officers and say, you know, try to fill
[13:22] that request. And if it's filled, we
call every source back and say, "Yeah,
[13:26] we have found an officer to fill the
detail. Um where would you like to
[13:30] meet?" And we get all that contact
information and then the officer comes
[13:33] in, performs the private, you know,
extra duty detail,
[13:38] completes the detail, comes back,
my town, my police administrator then
[13:43] fills out the invoice and then mails it
out or emails it to the company
[13:47] depending on their preference. They get
the bill for the invoice. They send back
[13:52] a check. We take the check, the invoice
and then give it to the Treasury
[13:56] Department here at the police
department. I mean at the top office. So
[14:00] we track the details coming you know
that we perform and then the payments
[14:04] coming in.
[14:12] » So has there ever been a time
[14:17] when we've used
[14:21] section 8 penalty?
>> Not yet. Nope.
[14:28] But it is there as a
deterrence, right? That if they were to
[14:34] not follow the town or the lens, kind of
like riding bicycles in the memorial
[14:39] park, there should be some type of fine
structure for that.
[14:55] Has there ever been like a dispute
between
[14:59] like hours work. Do they like sign the
ticket or just
[15:03] » No, not that I'm aware of. No. Yeah. A
lot of times like Eversource or
[15:08] » Aspen it's it's on and off when they
actually have a slip, right?
[15:14] » They'll have a slip that we sign off
that goes back to their corporation and
[15:17] vice versa. We have a detail slip that
they fill out. It's our detail
[15:21] application. Okay.
>> And we track the hours there and then we
[15:24] submit the bill. So we
>> haven't had disputes.
[15:28] » Uh we have, you know, cases where, you
know, we've had to like nag them like,
[15:32] "Hey, you're falling behind in your
payments, you know, beyond the
[15:35] » the um request for payment in the detail
ordinance." And that's where, you know,
[15:40] our town keeps saying that police
administrator um you know, makes phone
[15:44] calls just like anybody else trying to
collect money and and I say, "Hey,
[15:47] you're 30 days late or 60 days or um
>> but currently to date for 2026, we're
[15:53] 100% up to date on what's been built and
um
[15:57] That's where we're at
[16:01] » other than like the detail over the
weekend and today, you know, those those
[16:05] bills will go out this week.
>> Yeah.
[16:09] » So, is there ever a time that a a
resident might want to consider
[16:15] » a detail?
>> Yeah.
[16:17] » Yeah. We we get um the biggest ones we
get for residents are one has been
[16:23] served the domestic violence order of
protection and they can't be at the
[16:26] residence legally without a police
officer presence and they want to move
[16:31] out. So they'll call and say, "Hey, I
need a civil standby. I want to get my
[16:35] property at the house." And our normal
course of action says, "We can give you
[16:39] 10 or 15 minutes free. We'll come and
stand by for 10 or 15 minutes. If we get
[16:43] called away within that 10 or 15
minutes, we're going to ask you to
[16:46] leave. you got to leave immediately. And
then they're like, well, I need to move.
[16:49] They're like, well, how long do you
need? I need 4 hours. And they say,
[16:51] well, you can get a police detail. So,
I'm not going to pay, you know, you
[16:54] can't give an officer dedicated four
hours to be there. So, that's rare, but
[16:58] that's probably the most common that we
get for a citizen. Uh, sometimes like
[17:04] Old Homestead Farm will have an event
that they'll call us for um police
[17:09] detail, graduation, graduation
ceremonies, weddings if they feel it's
[17:13] necessary. Um, I think they're growing
up there. I'm not entirely sure, but
[17:18] those are some examples.
>> Yeah.
[17:23] » Any comments?
>> No.
[17:37] » Well, the rates aren't that much
different from what they were back in
[17:41] 2023.
[17:49] The admin fee went down for holidays.
[17:56] » Yeah, correct. Was that just done in the
same manner of average
[18:03] or
>> it was a little bit to do with the
[18:05] average and was also trying not to have
a a major increase between the 142 and
[18:11] the 149 and still cover the admin fees.
>> Um,
[18:17] so that was my thought process behind
that.
[18:27] You have any thoughts on it, Jack?
>> No, I think it's pretty standard. Um,
[18:32] you know, the idea is there's no reason
to put this on the back of the
[18:36] taxpayers. So, you're trying to price it
generously enough so that you know
[18:40] you're covering your costs. I mean, you
know, the cruisers running out there for
[18:44] hours and hours and hours on hills. You
know, they're 70 or 80,000 bucks.
[18:48] So, you know, it's not it's not
inexpensive and it does take a lot of
[18:52] time, but it's built into the system and
they don't have to come here. They're
[18:56] working and they could go to any
community police detail. You know,
[19:00] sometimes they'll I'm sure the chief
reaches out to other towns, but if they
[19:04] can't get the coverage, they'll come
over. You see it all the time. So,
[19:07] » and you know, if they don't want to use
a police detail, they can use a flagger.
[19:11] They make that choice.
>> Yeah.
[19:13] » Yeah. And we work with them. There's a
lot of details we can't film, plain and
[19:17] simple, right? And we don't stop them
for it. We say just make sure you have
[19:20] the road covered with certified flaggers
and do your job, right? And that's
[19:24] something we're very fair with. I mean,
ever so
[19:27] » is in town today and tomorrow. We don't
have anybody for them. Aspen right now
[19:32] has five trucks a day in town for the
last three months. Most of those we
[19:36] don't we can't fill that request. But
the details ordinance allows them allows
[19:41] us to say, "Hey, at least ask us." So we
know one we know where you are and two
[19:45] if we can put a police detail there we
will and if we can't please use flaggers
[19:48] do your business right we don't we're
not in the business of stopping people
[19:52] from stop from doing their business
we're just saying you know when you use
[19:56] us this is the fees you know um and uh
works out well so I said [clears throat]
[20:03] one's been in town for months and I
think they're going to be here for a few
[20:06] more months
>> and the police like to know because not
[20:09] everybody's always nice when there's
vehicles in the road and there's delays
[20:13] So
>> if there's an incident,
[20:15] » then at least they know what the deal
is.
[20:17] » Yeah.
>> And it's nice to know where they are.
[20:19] Like daily right now, I get emails are
scheduled from ask of the roads they're
[20:24] going to be on.
>> So if somebody calls and says, "Hey,
[20:27] there's construction and it's not
properly flagged or posted, you know,
[20:32] like, oh yeah, I saw out there or asks
out there. I know who's out there." Then
[20:35] they can go take a ride out there and
take a look and see what's going on. And
[20:39] sometimes we'll roll up and say, "Yeah,
there is absolutely nobody flagging it."
[20:42] It's a onelane road and it's you know
not in the best position for visibility
[20:46] for approaching traffic or pedestrians
and you know the the other part some
[20:51] people say why details and you know the
other part is you know the police
[20:55] department patrols these streets every
single day we respond to all the
[20:58] accidents we respond to all the
emergencies we assist disabled motorists
[21:02] we assist the stranded motors motorists
in distress why shouldn't we be out
[21:07] there another cop on the road is a good
thing right and U
[21:12] we are responsible for a lot of that as
a police department. So
[21:23] » can I ask a question about this?
>> Absolutely.
[21:26] » Um so for the record, one of my brothers
is a former Rochester officer. So I'm
[21:32] very
>> New Hampshire.
[21:32] » Yes.
>> I'm very pro police. I wish we had a 247
[21:37] funded force, but my only concern
concern from a finance standpoint. I
[21:42] understand that these companies
regardless of the rates, you know, pay
[21:45] for you, your officers to do that during
that time, but I have concerns about
[21:50] then that taking away coverage or then
driving overtime if something else
[21:54] happens during that given week. So then
we end up we end up paying more as a
[22:00] town because we're covering the shift or
things like that.
[22:04] » So that's this doesn't
>> Yeah, it's extra duty. So, it's beyond
[22:08] their scheduled 40 hours. So,
>> no, no, I understand. But if something
[22:12] happens and you already got a guy on
detail, you got to call somebody in.
[22:16] Now, they're on overtime, right? Because
somebody else was or Unless you break
[22:20] the detail. And
>> yeah, I I mean, if I have to call
[22:24] somebody in, I'm sure it's going to be
overtime anyway for any reason. Um,
[22:29] and we've had guys break away from
details because we'll have a critical
[22:31] incident in town and like I the
personnel and they'll clear or they'll
[22:35] make contact with the company and say,
"Hey, I can't do traffic. Can you get
[22:38] somebody here or shut down? I got to
leave right now." Right? Well, you know,
[22:42] it happens. And as a chief, I'm like,
it's nice to know that extra officer's
[22:46] in town. Even though he's on an extra
duty, hey, when I really need someone,
[22:50] they can come, right? You know, and
that's that is another I guess a benefit
[22:56] to it. I guess is a benefit. Um, that
happens once in a while. Probably of all
[23:01] the details we do annually, two or three
times a year, well, some guy will come
[23:05] off a paid detail to come over and
assist us in a what we call a hot call
[23:09] or an emergency.
So, that's nice, too.
[23:15] » So, hopefully we can straighten out
straighten out the revolving fund and
[23:18] how that's all getting paid too because
that's still a mess.
[23:22] » So, what was your other
>> That was that was my major concern about
[23:26] pulling
>> losing our resources,
[23:29] » right? Because we have limited
resources, right? And we're not able to
[23:33] staff 24/7. So that that was my major
concern,
[23:38] » right? And but it is a latent concern
because you can always have a special
[23:41] event even without a detail and have to
call somebody and it's the same minimum
[23:45] over time
>> connection or whatever. But I get it.
[23:48] No, it's not it's not not a bad point.
>> I just don't see I mean how many times
[23:55] would that happen.
>> It doesn't not my exper
[24:02] » detrimental to the
>> Yeah.
[24:05] » Yeah. It it it doesn't really happen.
>> Yeah.
[24:11] » My my officers know like if there's an
overtime shift versus a detail shift,
[24:15] they would never take the detail. I
wouldn't give it to them, right? Like
[24:18] this is I need you here for for overtime
to cover a shift, but you that's not
[24:23] going to happen.
And you have a budget to run by, you
[24:28] know.
>> Y
[24:30] to make sure.
[24:38] » Well, first of all, Jack, if it possible
to get copies of whatever was presented
[24:42] tonight,
[24:47] we can take this right here.
>> I don't want to take something that
[24:51] belongs. No, that's a that's a
>> This is an extra.
[24:55] » Is there
>> It's not in red. There's a little more
[24:58] italics or
>> section 6.0 is what we have.
[25:05] » Well, it's offered to you.
>> Is there anything else?
[25:08] » Is there any kind of legal RSAs or
anything like that that
[25:13] justifies these rates for billing rates?
[25:20] » Not that I know. one.
>> Oh, yeah.
[25:23] » You actually It's actually in your uh
>> and not the rates, the actual use of the
[25:28] » Yeah, it was 1059.
So, I think we're talking to all of us.
[25:32] You didn't specifically ask anybody. So,
I was just responding. It's just normal
[25:35] course, I think.
[25:41] » Here's a copy of your
talking about it and the reference
[25:47] material that's brought in there.
What you're what he references is two
[25:52] things. One is the guidelines for state
of New Hampshire Department of
[25:56] Transportation
>> DOT. Yeah.
[25:59] » And the second one is RSA 105
9
[26:06] wherever it is. I have a copy if you
need it. But if you read this, first of
[26:11] all, this isn't standalone.
There's actually
[26:17] here you go. This is the policy letter
that goes with this.
[26:23] And it says right in there that we the
state strongly recommends the use of
[26:29] flagman and rarely recommend uniform
police officers. That's throughout this
[26:34] entire book.
The if I meant I don't mean it. I left
[26:42] my copy back for sure.
[26:46] On the last page of this thing that's
listed in your ordinance, the very last
[26:51] thing lists
where you should char find out the
[26:55] billing rates. It says section 618.
>> Mhm.
[27:00] » Of here's a Department of Transportation
guidelines and it sites. Here's a copy
[27:06] for you.
>> Yeah.
[27:08] » And here is section 618.
At the very bottom it says rates of
[27:15] payment.
[27:18] Now the rates of payment according to
the state of New Hampshire
[27:24] is the cost of a the salary cost of your
officer plus 5% for overhead which means
[27:32] it shouldn't be $90 an hour. If
Davey for example pulls a detail it
[27:39] should be 3180 an hour.
plus 5% for overhead.
[27:45] That's what the state of New Hampshire
puts in the guidelines that's cited in
[27:50] your
[28:01] » So there is a a documented rate that we
should be charging.
[28:07] [clears throat]
>> Well, it's recommendation. It's
[28:08] recommendation.
It's not recommendation.
[28:11] » It's not our policy even
department of transportation guidelines
[28:17] on how much you charge basis of payment
and
[28:24] that's what's cited in your
ordinance.
[28:28] So we're not really following that.
>> Yeah. In here section 3.0 procedure
[28:33] chief may reference the New Hampshire
DOT flag uniform officer work zone
[28:37] guidelines and say I shall it says I may
and that's that's a a guideline that we
[28:43] look at to use flaggers and to set up
work zones safely um and so that's there
[28:50] as a reference
>> then the question would become what
[28:56] we're leaving the authority to run a
detail at all
[29:00] » uh 1059
If you read 1059,
[29:09] » 1059 says
any person desiring to conduct a public
[29:15] dance, circus, or carnival.
That's what it applies to. I don't know
[29:21] that a road detail has either a public
dance, circus, or carnival.
[29:26] » I can read the rest of it. I believe it
talks about lane blockage and other
[29:30] things like that in the RCA.
Section section two goes on to say the
[29:35] chief of police shall have a authority
to assign police details to any public
[29:40] meetings or functions which he
determines
[29:43] may potentially involve traffic related
problems lead to a public disturbance or
[29:49] public nuisance or endanger public
health safety or welfare.
[29:55] » That's where the road work would
probably come in.
[29:57] » Sure. Listen, every agency in New
Hampshire does it this way.
[30:02] » Yeah.
>> Market driven.
[30:04] » So what you quoted was section one and
then there's there's actually a section
[30:09] two.
>> I understand. But section two can also
[30:13] to the first part which is this is the
areas that you are interested.
[30:18] Now, when we say things like Eversource
and so on and so forth, those are state
[30:23] contracts,
not town contracts that are governed by
[30:27] the Department of Transportation's
guideline, which I just gave to Select
[30:33] Summer,
and they lay out [clears throat] who
[30:37] should be pulling the detail, and they
flat out oppose
[30:42] uniform police officers except in
specific places in the state. For
[30:47] example, route 101 between ports or
whatever if
[31:08] the policy actually says
if you miss some if you read on the
[31:13] policy letter about halfway down it says
polic policy and the state says flaggers
[31:19] will be a primary source of providing
dynamic temporary traffic control work
[31:24] areas.
>> So is that the case in switch?
[31:28] » Uh I'm not sure what was the question.
>> No, our flagger is generally the
[31:34] » I would say especially speaking of this
year we're not filling the vast majority
[31:39] of the detail requests.
>> That's right.
[31:41] » That's there's probably five or six
detailed requests of the day right now.
[31:44] We're lucky to fill one and we don't
stop them from working. We like I said
[31:48] before, if they can do work with a
flagger, we let them do that. We don't
[31:53] say like for instance, Donna Wrench's
policy says if you don't have a police
[31:57] detail, you don't you don't get in the
road. We don't do that. My job is to say
[32:02] if we can provide one, we will. If we
can't use flaggers and move on, right?
[32:06] Do your job.
[32:08] This is the same thing you already have.
I highlighted
[32:13] that line.
You can have that more. And if you look
[32:18] through this, this is the guidelines.
And you can read everywhere. It says
[32:23] uniform officers will be used in
specific areas
[32:28] and preferred
not at all.
[32:39] And then we have a training requirement.
And then of course we go back to how
[32:45] much they should be paid.
If we're going to use that as a
[32:52] site for the appendix B, then we should
follow it.
[32:57] » It's a reference.
>> That's all it is.
[32:59] » You referenced it.
>> I didn't. It says a maybe reference.
[33:03] police made reference
>> if we're going to put it
[33:06] » at the end of the day. Every police
agency, every community does it the way
[33:10] you described.
>> You can see that in the statistics. So,
[33:14] I understand your point on this one. I
think you're wrong and I think every
[33:18] community in the state would agree.
>> I understand you do it no matter what.
[33:24] » But the policy that he references
>> says that we should be paying the guys
[33:29] their salary plus 5% for overhead.
not $200 or 100 whatever it comes to.
[33:36] » Okay.
>> The other thing is you read the actual
[33:41] policy
>> pretty much nobody that it applies to
[33:46] because all the road most of the road
work is done by state contract which
[33:51] they follow that regulation.
And then the exceptions that we have,
[33:58] we've accept exempted everybody
in town.
[34:05] All nonprofits or civic groups
are deemed necessary to enhance the
[34:11] sense of community in town. I can't
think of a nonprofit or civic group
[34:15] [clears throat] that would not fall into
that category.
[34:34] I would suggest that you think about
resending the ordinance completely and
[34:40] suspending detail activity until you
come up with a better, more precise
[34:45] ordinance instead of
I want to get paid hundreds of dollars
[34:49] an hour. I disagree. I think this
ordinance is uh fine the way it is and
[34:53] it's sustainable and we've been
operating this without any complaints
[34:57] from businesses or other people in town
other than Mr. Doyle and uh it seems to
[35:02] work. It keeps our community safe. He
has another officer out on the road
[35:07] directing traffic. Um and again the
appendix to N DOT flag is a uniform is a
[35:14] reference so we can reference material
if we need to. Uh it's not a it's not
[35:18] the new switch police department's
policy by any stretch.
[35:34] » I'm trying to find where you said
everybody is exempt.
[35:41] » Well, it's a matter
>> in our policy in the
[35:45] » polic. I don't see where everybody is
exempt.
[35:48] » Exemptions is section 50
>> and 51 says nonprofit and civic groups
[35:57] that are deemed to enhance the sound
sense of uh the town's [snorts]
[36:01] sense of community
>> as defined by the board of select. Well,
[36:07] » if traffic control is deemed necessary
by the police chief, these groups shall
[36:11] pay the wages and associated benefits of
full-time officers at the overtime rate
[36:16] rather than the detail rate or part-time
officers at the overtime rate if no
[36:21] full-time officers are available. So, I
don't see I don't understand why you
[36:27] said everybody's exempt. I'm saying very
few people would apply
[36:31] » and that may be true as when I asked the
chief that he did say very few
[36:36] » would be exempt
>> very few residents
[36:41] um end up using this
>> they would be exempt
[36:44] » well against the community sense of
community and you support the children's
[36:50] fair so
[36:54] difficult to find a community event that
does not enhance the community. If it
[37:01] doesn't enhance the community, you
wouldn't bother calling it a community
[37:05] event.
>> Yeah. I I'm just not following your
[37:08] train about it that everybody's exempt.
>> Chief, did you have something?
[37:12] » Yeah, I was [clears throat] just going
to say an example would be we do uh
[37:15] sports games at the high school. If
there's a lot of crowds, large crowds,
[37:20] [clears throat] we go, they pay the
detail or the overtime, you know, so
[37:24] they possibly could be exempt, but they
asked us to be there, right? Because
[37:29] there could be problems. We had an
assault happen two years ago in the
[37:32] soccer field. Um, you know, there was no
police there and that's when I realized
[37:37] we probably should have police, you
know, so those we we do basketball
[37:41] games, could do soccer games. Um, so the
that those are that would be an example
[37:50] » where you know a town civic group or
organization such as the scenic school
[37:55] district request our presence for
detail.
[38:00] » Mr. And historically the same school
district and other sporting events get
[38:05] charged significantly
less than what is outlined in this which
[38:11] is a lot closer to the officer's actual
salary plus 5%.
[38:17] But isn't wouldn't that be in compliance
with this?
[38:22] Because it says that the chief may
um wouldn't be at detail rates if it's
[38:31] something that we're discussing. So I
would think that would be complying with
[38:37] the ordinance
because it's a school event.
[38:43] Have you seen anything in there that
would change your thoughts on this?
[38:47] » I haven't. Not yet. I haven't fully read
everything, but
[38:52] » there's a few.
>> I'm I'm just wondering like what is the
[38:56] other than the guidelines that you
present here? What is the
[39:03] what is the negative to having a police
detail?
[39:07] » To having a police detail.
>> Yeah. the cost to the taxpayers.
[39:12] » How he's billing for it though.
>> Well, he's billing them, but the
[39:16] taxpayers are paying the officers and we
don't necessarily
[39:20] have that money transferred over to the
town, which is why we have an accounting
[39:24] problem with some of that. That's one
thing. Eversource is going to relay that
[39:28] cost to you and me, whether it's
directly out of tax or our increased
[39:33] billing. It costs them more.
The one of the invoices I p two officers
[39:40] were out there for a total of 12 hours.
It was like a $2,500 bill or some
[39:46] ridiculous amount to Eversource or one
of the companies like that. And they
[39:51] don't absorb that. They're going to pass
that on to the customers, you and me and
[39:55] the rest of the Eversource customers,
whether it's electric or cable or
[40:00] whoever that's going to be passed on.
And those contracts, by the way, are run
[40:04] by the state
>> and should be following the guidelines.
[40:08] » The state, if you ever look at some of
these, they all have the state
[40:12] requirements. You have
>> they have an officer, a flag on each
[40:16] side with the thing, dress in yellow,
regardless how hot it is.
[40:21] » They've met the state requirements.
>> We're simply imposing an additional
[40:25] requirement and an additional cost on to
them. And it's not like it's either we
[40:31] need it there because How many have you
passed where there's no officer there?
[40:34] » But they're the ones initiating.
I don't I don't think we're going to
[40:39] them saying, "Hey, we need a have a
somebody out here, right?" Don't they
[40:44] come to the police and say, "Hey,
we want somebody here or need somebody
[40:49] here or how does that work?"
>> Yeah, I think the vast majority of them
[40:53] will call us and request. There are
there has been instances where we'll see
[40:57] somebody out on the road that's not
using a flagger and they're doing, you
[41:01] know, obstructing traffic.
>> Um,
[41:04] yeah. And we'll solve we'll address it.
We're like, "Hey, this isn't safe." And
[41:07] sometimes we receive complaints
complaints from citizens and we don't
[41:10] even know they're there until somebody
tells us because, you know, this is 32
[41:13] miles in town, square miles. We'll go
out there and we'll explain to them
[41:16] that, you know, for safety reasons, you
should have flaggers and properly mark
[41:20] the road at both ends that there's a
construction zone ahead. flagger ahead,
[41:24] one lane road, whatever the sign package
needs to be. Um, and you know, so so
[41:29] sometimes they don't do that, right? And
that's, you know, an education part on
[41:33] our our part of the PD when we go up to
these uh people that are doing that. And
[41:37] then, you know, we also give them the
town ordinance so they understand what's
[41:41] uh the ordinance of the towns and what's
expected.
[41:46] » And just for balance, this is
[clears throat]
[41:49] obviously the state of New Hampshire,
they have their own things when they're
[41:52] building
roads and bridges. So, they're trying to
[41:55] control their costs. They'd rather have
a flyer than a car because they spend
[41:58] tens of millions of dollars on bridges
and roads. They want to control their
[42:02] costs. A splint is a private company.
They get hired by a by these utilities.
[42:08] And I don't I would disagree with oil
that these are state contracts. It's a
[42:13] utility contract with a private company.
And the fact is again every single
[42:19] community
[42:22] charges these rights for these just the
way it is. Every community that I've
[42:27] ever worked in love with the air
and I called New Hampshire State Police
[42:32] and I don't quote me on this but I think
was the troopers are getting $72 an hour
[42:37] and that's what the state so if you
reference this their own people aren't
[42:40] even doing it you know if that if that's
what we're looking at. Um, plus their
[42:44] fees are a lot higher than ours. They
have uniform fees and you know other
[42:48] things. But anyway, that's
[42:54] » all right. Any other discussion on the
proposed changes?
[43:00] » I would like to see some of the
surrounding police departments and you
[43:05] know
what would be comparative
[43:09] um to the what they what they charge and
how they do it compared to what we're
[43:16] doing.
[43:21] [clears throat]
>> Those are current rates.
[43:25] » Okay.
[43:28] » And those listed there, Mr. Alvarez, are
the officers pay rate, not all the fees
[43:33] combined.
>> Okay.
[43:38] Any
[43:44] other discussion?
[43:48] » Does that satisfy what you were?
>> Oh, I'm just looking at it right now.
[43:53] So, go ahead and and and
[43:59] speak to it.
[44:05] » Well, I was going to uh it up. We there
>> that's your prerogative.
[44:18] » I suppose it is chairman.
>> It is my prerogative.
[44:21] » Make a motion to
>> Yeah, this is what But I wanted to know.
[44:25] » Oh, yeah. I'm just Yeah, I'm just
looking at the at the details here.
[44:28] » Yeah.
>> And we can go ahead and Yeah, you could
[44:32] wrap it up if you'd like and then um
that'll give me the next until the next
[44:38] week or so to uh to review this. That's
all.
[44:44] Unless you don't want me to take this
with me.
[44:47] » Oh,
[44:53] so you don't feel comfortable voting on
a motion at this time?
[44:56] » I didn't accept this.
>> Oh, okay. Can I have a motion?
[45:02] » I
I'll make motion to accept new policy
[45:07] changes for police department
for 2026
[45:13] outlined in
the paper that we got here.
[45:21] Second it.
All in favor?
[45:27] » I tap.
>> All right, the motion carries.
[45:36] That's yours.
[45:50] » Okay. How is the uh new trainee coming
along?
[45:53] » Good.
>> Good.
[45:54] » Yeah. Okay. A little over a week out of
the academy, so it's going pretty good.
[46:00] lots to learn and you know it's a
probably a four or five year journey
[46:04] before they really get comfortable. But
it's a it does get us to fully staffed
[46:09] as far as you know the numbers are six
full-time officers and uh
[46:16] um you know he's still quite a burden to
us versus useful because we got to train
[46:20] him and he's going to be with an officer
all the time. But we're hoping in a
[46:22] couple months that he'll be a solo
officer and patrolling on his own and uh
[46:27] » Jeez, just a couple of months.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we we got a chance to
[46:31] train him a little bit before he left
the academy while he was pending the the
[46:35] start of the police academy. They
finished up his 16 weeks there and
[46:39] everything went well.
>> Excellent.
[46:41] » We're in a good spot. Um Jackie Bouedi
is uh the police administrator. Today
[46:47] was her last day, so I'm actively
filling trying to fill that position.
[46:50] » Today was her last day.
>> She's going to work a couple part-time
[46:54] hours Wednesday and Thursday. So, we uh
we threw a little party today. We had a
[46:59] little bit of pizza and some cake and um
prosecution group stopped in to say
[47:03] thank you because she works closely with
them. U all the st a lot of the staff
[47:07] returned even on their day off today to
come and attend and say thank you.
[47:12] » We do as well
>> the board offers.
[47:15] » Thanks for having Yeah. So it was sad to
see her go but she's going to move on to
[47:20] the next chapter in her life and we got
to go start to do some adventuring. So,
[47:26] uh,
>> there wasn't enough adventures at the
[47:28] PD.
>> They got a fifth wheel trailer and, uh,
[47:32] they're going to just kind of poke
around and have some fun and see where
[47:35] they land and and life's going to throw
them some adventure, you know.
[47:39] » So, we're pretty happy for us to see her
go. She was an amazing employee and
[47:43] dedicated to us. Uh, real crucial to our
our success at the police department.
[47:48] Um, awesome performing employee, you
know.
[47:53] So, we'll we're working on it. Phil,
>> Chief, can I ask you a question? I
[47:57] noticed that instead of a an hourly rate
range, you just listed, I think the rate
[48:03] that Jackie is currently at, like the
26, 10 or whatever it is. I'm just
[48:08] wondering if it would be more
appropriate to have listed a range
[48:10] because I mean to me that kind of rate
somebody that's got at least 5, seven,
[48:15] 10 years experience.
Yeah, I I I posted it for what the
[48:20] position is budgeted for and I I
honestly think that it's low, right? So,
[48:24] I might as well pay somebody what I have
in the budget and try to attract a
[48:28] quality candidate. And to be frank, one
of the persons that applied has five
[48:32] years and works for another agency and
she applied to the job. Had it been
[48:36] less, I don't think she's done, right?
So, I think it worked and I'm pretty
[48:40] happy and I stand behind my decision to
post it that way. Um, I'm trying to draw
[48:45] talent and I'm trying to get people in
the role to support our agency and
[48:48] complete our mission. Um, and I want the
best I can get.
[48:52] » Are you going to have that person clean
the office as well?
[48:55] » Uh, I'm going to offer to if she feels
like this person feels like they want
[48:59] that task. If they don't, then I'll have
to well, they're going to come up with a
[49:03] plan, right, to get it close. Um, but,
uh, you know, that's where we're at. and
[49:09] we used uh you know we we were able to
advertise and we actually got I think
[49:14] right now I have really three real solid
candidates for the position and uh very
[49:18] fortunate right so um yeah we're moving
forward been very successful u we've
[49:26] been interviewing for two or three weeks
yeah
[49:28] » thank you good
>> and if if I can speak to one other
[49:33] matter if this one's closed I give you I
just want to give a heads up it's
[49:36] nothing that I would need to be here Um,
I did apply for a grant u from the
[49:42] department of safety um to help us get
new computers for the cruisers and
[49:48] hardware and try to get on what we call
the J1 program where we can start
[49:51] submitting
uh citations and complaints and crash
[49:56] reports electronically versus paper.
Um,
[50:01] » this is something that's different than
the um
[50:05] » software. Yes, the records management.
>> Yeah, this is a state initiative to try
[50:10] to get more agencies to use their
electronic transfer of data versus
[50:14] paper. Like right now, we print out
every accident report and put it in the
[50:18] mail and send it to the state where we
could be sending that electronically.
[50:22] Uh but anyway, I just want you I did
apply for that grant. We are are going
[50:26] to be awarded the grant. Um, I have to
go through and wait for one more piece
[50:31] of paper, but I just want you to know
that's coming that there'll be a
[50:34] certificate of authority. I'll have to
touch base with Jack on the certificate
[50:38] of authority saying that we can accept
the grant. I'll give you guys the terms
[50:41] of the grant. Uh, this grant is um for
$37,750
[50:47] for all new computer equipment.
It's 100% grant. Um, we do have to buy
[50:54] and submit a reimbursement request for
that uh equipment, but it's 100%. It's
[50:58] not a match. So, I thought that's pretty
exciting news. Um, good good stuff. So,
[51:04] in the future, probably next week, I
might submit it for review and then
[51:07] maybe get back on the agenda in a week
or two and see if we can have a
[51:12] conversation about
>> Do they have Do you have the terms or
[51:15] [clears throat] the the fine print?
>> Yes, sir. It's all right here.
[51:20] » Okay. You can Absolutely. That's what I
mean by next week I maybe I'll submit
[51:24] all the paperwork to you for review
>> and then you know if you don't take the
[51:28] grant then you know that is what it is
but uh you know it's it's a way to help
[51:32] offset some of our future costs and um
you know it's out there being offered by
[51:38] the by the state to try to promote
agencies that are small like us to start
[51:42] using the the the technology.
>> I assume it'll save your staff hours too
[51:47] and the officers hours.
>> Yeah. between the new record management
[51:50] system and being able to do like this
kind of using this kind of equipment.
[51:55] It's it's very much more efficient. You
know, now we'll be able to take a
[51:58] license in the cruiser and scan it once
we in that position. There's a barcode
[52:04] scanner on there, puts that person's
information into the call, you know,
[52:08] stuff like that. um that you'll be able
to print the citation out right in the
[52:13] cruiser versus handwriting one out
>> which takes all that time and then when
[52:18] we're done that that summons or ticket
is transferred electronically through
[52:23] the web back out to the state. Um, those
are all steps that take manpower. And
[52:29] anyway, I don't want to get on a
tangent, take up a bunch of your time,
[52:31] but you I'm going to send you some of
that.
[52:34] » Be between that and the update on the um
reporting software.
[52:39] » There could be there could be a lot of
>> the workload of these of your officers.
[52:45] » Yeah.
>> Could be relieved and they can be
[52:47] spending more.
>> Yes, sir. Yeah. it when we finally get
[52:50] this all up and running by go live date
of May next year. I mean, it's going to
[52:54] make a big impact on our our efficiency
for sure.
[52:59] » And then that in turn improves morale
>> does
[53:03] » because nobody
>> and we're going to get up to modern
[53:05] technology where a lot of agencies are
already doing this. We we're not we're
[53:08] way behind the curve.
>> Yeah. But I bet we're ahead of some
[53:12] » some. Yes, we are. We are definitely
ahead of some. We are not we are not
[53:16] behind everybody. Some some police
departments still don't have computers
[53:20] in their cruisers,
>> which
[53:23] » is really really old school, right? Like
I started 20 something years ago.
[53:29] We had computers in the cars,
>> right? Some agencies don't have anyway.
[53:34] Uh exciting news for you know that that
grant was a a bit of work. I got the the
[53:39] letter from the state last week saying
that it's going to go through and uh
[53:43] that this got signed off by the
governor's council. etc. So,
[53:47] » so we'll be a Did you say you'll be able
to email the three of us to so we can
[53:53] » Yep. I'll get everything compiled and
say here this is what the agreement is,
[53:57] scope of work, and the um certificate of
authority.
[54:01] » Yeah. If you could send it earlier than
like just at a meeting where [cough]
[54:05] » Yeah.
>> If I get it to you next week, I probably
[54:07] won't be asked to get on the agenda for
a week or two after. Perfect. Right.
[54:11] » And that way we can cover if this
questions Yeah.
[54:16] All right, I have one other question.
Um, you see a lot on the news now of
[54:23] video surveillance,
>> right? You I'm sure you've seen like
[54:27] cameras everywhere.
>> Flock is the is the is the the name
[54:30] going around for sure.
>> And I'm wondering that
[54:36] um gifted radar thing that we accepted.
Yep.
[54:40] » Is that a part of that network?
>> No, it is not. is not linked to like an
[54:44] automatic license plate here where it's
running a license plate back to the DMV
[54:49] or anything like that. No,
>> it's capturing speeds.
[54:53] » But then there was a there was a camera.
>> Yeah, there's supposed to be an anti-
[54:57] theft camera there. So, if you somebody
stole it that perhaps you could get a
[55:00] picture of somebody who stole the sign
and vandalized it. I've never used it.
[55:04] I've never had to and I'm not even sure
how to access that to be frank. Right.
[55:09] Um, so the police is not using it as a
surveillance tool other than to monitor
[55:15] speed.
>> And so you get a report.
[55:18] » I can print a report. Yep. So I I can
log in and see the traffic patterns
[55:25] speed patterns.
>> All right.
[55:30] » Very good.
>> We we do have two we do have a camera at
[55:34] Hybridge and and not us, but there is a
camera at Hybridge and 1241 123.
[55:39] » That's a DOT camera.
>> That's a DOT camera. My understanding
[55:42] that's a live feed only. They don't
record it. They just monitor the
[55:45] intersection. That's what I was told.
I've never seen any footage from it or
[55:48] used it.
>> And I've had people come into the office
[55:51] and be like, "You own that camera within
the last couple months." Right.
[55:55] » Yeah. Because it's really
>> They want to know if it's a FL camera
[55:57] basically. And I'll be like, "No, it's
DOT. If you have questions, go see the
[56:01] DOT."
I wonder if this board has any footing
[56:07] to ask the state
why that's there and can it be removed.
[56:13] » Well, my understanding is they just
monitor road conditions like in winter
[56:18] if there's a car off the road or snow
accumulation or that sort of thing. But
[56:23] » I don't know that there's any other
purpose. But
[56:26] » yeah,
>> and I've been up to the control center
[56:28] up there and it's it's impressive. They
have
[56:32] hundreds and hundreds of cameras around
the state monitoring the interstates
[56:35] mostly the interstates and the troubled
intersections off ramps on ramps um and
[56:40] that is useful tool to direct resources
to accidents and hazardous conditions
[56:45] but I can't speak to surveillance and
running plates and what they do but they
[56:49] do have a pretty comprehensive
um camera surveillance sort of you know
[56:56] monitoring system at the department of
transportation
[56:59] » I I remember when they put it up and I
was told very similar.
[57:03] » Yeah.
>> Whether they said it was to monitor the
[57:06] bridge.
>> Yeah.
[57:08] » And I think one point we had a bus
accident right at the intersection and I
[57:12] I think I called and was like, "Can I
get the footage?" And they're like, "No,
[57:15] it's just monitored." Cuz I was like, I
wanted to see if I had evidence of
[57:18] wrongdoing.
>> Somebody rammed the bus coming out of
[57:22] the library or whatever the scenario. I
can't quite read the scenario. This was
[57:25] six years ago, seven years ago. But, you
know, I remember you, oh man, can I get
[57:29] footage from that camera [clears throat]
to see what happened?
[57:32] » Yeah, but it's not available.
>> I was told it was not available.
[57:42] » Well, thank you for coming in.
[57:46] » Thank you.
>> Have a good night.
[57:51] » Thank you.
>> Good job on that grant.
[57:53] » Thank you.
>> We got to see the pine gray.
[57:58] It's It's promising.
>> It sounds very promising and and a and a
[58:03] good resource for the department.
[58:08] » All right. I don't I don't actually have
much to report since I've only been back
[58:13] five hours. But
>> um but I do, you know, I do um kind of
[58:20] want to continue the conversation about
the um the finance software module that
[58:26] we discussed a month or two or three
ago.
[58:31] » I don't know if you want to talk about
that at all.
[58:36] » Please.
>> Yes.
[58:39] Yeah. So, um I can speak to that a
little bit. Um,
[58:44] I we I went and attended a meeting this
week with Mary and Pete and
[58:52] kind of went over the overall picture of
what's happening within the finance
[58:59] departments and the accounting and the
practices between
[59:03] uh
finance and the treasurer.
[59:07] And most of the problems or a lot of
problem that we have is pointing towards
[59:13] limited limited functions of our
software.
[59:18] And
there's I didn't dig into all the
[59:22] numbers and that per se, but I was just
trying to figure out where the
[59:26] bottlenecks are within the town to have
the proper channels for who's doing what
[59:32] and how it's supposed to be going on.
Um,
[59:38] and so without the software, we're not
allowed to
[59:43] set up, from what I understand, the
accounts properly to post
[59:50] the treasures revenues and they need
expense accounts to go along with them
[59:56] and
it all filtered back towards two
[59:59] limitations that our software is not
correct.
[1:00:03] So, um I think previous meetings we've
had
[1:00:09] the discussion that the modules to get
what we need was like around 15,000
[1:00:14] maybe a little over.
>> Well, that came through an email.
[1:00:17] » Yeah.
>> A few weeks back.
[1:00:20] So in my opinion from what I see versus
trying to go back to like an Excel or
[1:00:27] switch the software midstream where we
are, I I just think we will disrupt more
[1:00:36] than getting the proper software that we
already own
[1:00:42] to abandon our whole old system or our
system currently.
[1:00:46] » BSNA.
>> Yeah. It just seems
[1:00:50] » that might
>> they might be
[1:00:53] we've already came this far and
implementing something else is going to
[1:00:58] cost way more than just getting the
module.
[1:01:00] » And we actually priced out with another
company. They actually declined and they
[1:01:06] said, "Listen, you have BSNA. If you had
bought the modules that you should have
[1:01:10] bought,
you wouldn't have this problem." And so
[1:01:15] they weren't actually interested in they
kind of talked themselves out because
[1:01:20] you know the SNA will work for you but
you have to get the other modules and
[1:01:25] you you bought part of the modules
because you didn't think the other half
[1:01:29] of the equation was necessary for some
reason or other.
[1:01:34] Yeah,
>> that has been
[1:01:38] our throne in the side
>> for a long time and
[1:01:43] I'm glad to see there's some
direction going forward. It's not an
[1:01:48] ideal year to just be because we've
already done this, you know, approved
[1:01:54] expenses like
that weren't budgeted for.
[1:02:02] Part of the problem we have is this
whole issue makes it difficult to make
[1:02:09] decisions like this on the fly because
we don't have
[1:02:14] that complete picture of our revenue.
which which
[1:02:19] » at least we're getting that we've
identified where the problem area is.
[1:02:23] » Yeah.
>> Okay.
[1:02:24] » And that's Pete and Mary and Jack have
been working all summer on that trying
[1:02:30] to get to the bottom and
>> and that's a start.
[1:02:33] » Yeah. So now at least we're at the base
of trying to identify what we need to
[1:02:40] get, what modules to get to what you
know I don't know enough about BSNA to
[1:02:48] uh to make any recommendations but
>> but they they have recommended to us we
[1:02:53] know what modules are needed.
>> Well they recommended to us for a lot of
[1:02:56] other things before
>> and they didn't pan out.
[1:03:02] Well, I don't think that we have we have
not changed the BSNA program since we
[1:03:08] purchased it. And so, this would be the
first
[1:03:13] um advised change that we I think we
should implement it. I don't know where
[1:03:20] the money I can't tell you. Hey, we're
going to pull it out of I mean, if we
[1:03:24] all
[1:03:28] » surrendered our salary, that would give
another what 800 bucks.
[1:03:33] » Yeah, it's almost an emergency.
>> I think so. I think we're going to have
[1:03:37] to scrape this money up somewhere.
>> That's how I feel. This has gone on so
[1:03:42] long.
>> The longer it goes on, the worse it and
[1:03:45] that was something we discussed is like
If we don't fix,
[1:03:52] it's not necessary like we just don't
have the tools and if we don't fix and
[1:03:58] kind of like draw the line in the sand,
say this is this is how we do this going
[1:04:03] forward.
>> Yeah.
[1:04:04] » We are just going to be in the same
>> thing in next year.
[1:04:10] » And as a new selectman, I I do I do want
to get this
[1:04:16] » as an old selectman.
I really want to be able to pass on
[1:04:22] readable
finances so
[1:04:27] » many select men can actually look and
say yes or no.
[1:04:32] » You have to wonder why it took so long
to come to that conclusion.
[1:04:36] » Well, I don't think we're going to go
there tonight. There is some
[1:04:40] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. extenduating circumstances
[1:04:43] throughout the years, we'll say.
>> But it's not just the two modules that
[1:04:48] you need for the accounts receivable
cash receipts there. There was also some
[1:04:52] underlying account structure that needed
to get fixed and accounts put in. So
[1:04:58] it's not that straightforward that we do
this.
[1:05:01] » This isn't a magic button. There's also
a lot of work
[1:05:05] » and that's what I was saying the
software is that
[1:05:08] » but there's also
>> possibility of bringing in or the extra
[1:05:15] time to set up the accounts correctly
>> correct
[1:05:18] » just to get the the accounting going
forward correct
[1:05:24] » then we still need to go back
>> and I'm suggesting just
[1:05:30] » call bygones bygones and is get the
audit
[1:05:34] » for 2025
>> good enough for the auditors
[1:05:40] » and obviously if there's question we
have to go kind of what I call
[1:05:44] scavenging hunting for the numbers for
them
[1:05:48] » because I don't see where we can
>> got to get the road
[1:05:52] » spend so much time going reverse versus
>> trying to move forward
[1:05:59] » the staff has put in a lot of effort on
We understand that.
[1:06:04] » But you at some point you you have to
just do the right thing.
[1:06:09] » Well, and this will just give you the
proper tool, the right hammer for the
[1:06:14] job.
>> Yes.
[1:06:15] » It won't do the job for you. You still
have to do the job, but it's going to
[1:06:19] give you the right
>> tools.
[1:06:21] » Yeah.
>> And then it'll be a matter of a still a
[1:06:25] lot of coordination from what I
understand.
[1:06:27] » A lot of coordination needed to get this
Well, Mary and and
[1:06:34] Pete and others have spent a lot of time
on on the phone and on Zoom with BSNA at
[1:06:39] the moment just
getting familiar with the layout, the
[1:06:42] setup of the accounts, that sort of
thing. What's missing, what
[1:06:45] » what the elements we have can do and
what they can't do.
[1:06:49] » So, that's
a lot of what we can't do. Yeah. And and
[1:06:52] they all say the same thing too, like
don't co it because that's pretty much
[1:06:57] what we've been doing. There was there
was a a a little glimmer of hope at one
[1:07:03] time that maybe we can make it work
using not having the modules but that
[1:07:09] seems to have evaporated.
>> Yeah, I think yeah I don't
[1:07:14] » it it would have been distorted.
>> It would have been just a cop like
[1:07:18] » which would have had to been addressed
at some point.
[1:07:20] » Correct.
>> Yeah.
[1:07:22] » And if you don't
then you're back to
[1:07:27] » you know
[1:07:32] So, is that a motion to approve the
proposal that was submitted a couple
[1:07:36] weeks ago that you reviewed?
>> Yeah. When was that came through the
[1:07:41] email?
[1:07:52] » There was no motion.
>> I'm just asking.
[1:07:54] » Yeah.
[1:08:02] Has anyone called or followed up with
them?
[1:08:08] » You got trained with them,
>> right? But did they I know the last time
[1:08:14] that we went reviewed the
potential cost,
[1:08:19] » how long it was good for.
>> Yeah.
[1:08:24] No, but I can tomorrow.
>> It's typically 60 days.
[1:08:29] » Yeah,
>> it's past the quoted date, but I just
[1:08:33] want to make sure
>> if they'll
[1:08:38] reach out to them tomorrow.
[1:08:48] So,
>> so that is that quote was 15,000.
[1:08:59] » You can make a motion that it's up to
say 17,000 or within 10% of the more
[1:09:04] than that we just come back. But at
least if it's within the boundary, then
[1:09:09] we'll just get her down.
[1:09:17] And then we'll actually end up at some
point saving on overtime to our finance
[1:09:23] » in about 6 months.
>> In about 6 months.
[1:09:27] » Assuming there's cooperation.
[1:09:46] I'm looking back at my notes.
[1:10:04] She's going to go get that email if you
have any.
[1:10:12] I'm wondering back in May we approved
$3675
[1:10:18] » that was
>> for consultation
[1:10:20] » that was for training and trying to help
solve these
[1:10:23] » Yeah. Can we burn up all that money?
>> Not yet. But I think I think this week
[1:10:28] may finish it off.
>> Yeah.
[1:10:30] » Remember there's layers to this. First
one was we
[1:10:34] » we took the BSNA platform half of it
because
[1:10:38] that replicated the method that you were
using here which wasn't working. But it
[1:10:45] also
um we had to understand with some of
[1:10:49] that consultation and training what
happened to the
[1:10:54] account set up to get
to set the software up. There were
[1:11:00] errors and mistakes with that. And so we
had to kind of figure out well how was
[1:11:05] this set up in the first place because
some of the accounts didn't make sense.
[1:11:08] And then what can it do? And then what
are we missing? What's taking the
[1:11:13] numbers?
[1:11:19] » Yeah, I was I was just asking that
thinking some of that money
[1:11:26] unused money if there was any leftover
it would go towards helping with this.
[1:11:31] But
purchasing these modules does that you
[1:11:36] don't probably don't know if that comes
with a certain amount of consultation.
[1:11:41] There is
>> there's a project management.
[1:11:44] » It talks about
>> fee in there covered.
[1:11:48] » I think it was like 40 of my memory.
It's like 4200 [clears throat]
[1:11:53] » was in the 50.
>> Okay, that was a good part of it.
[1:11:56] » They aren't just going to here download
the software.
[1:11:59] » They have to set it up. They have to
make sure the accounts line up what it's
[1:12:02] supposed to be. They have to train
people to use it.
[1:12:05] » But I think if we have
>> that's going to be the challenge
[1:12:08] » if we can get it and we have the
[1:12:13] some extra personnel or whatever in here
to help
[1:12:18] implement it. I think it would be
beneficial.
[1:12:24] » Is that even possible though? Can you
can you put a whole team on it?
[1:12:30] Let's
>> take the first step first.
[1:12:31] » Yeah. I mean, and um
>> let's get it get it set up.
[1:12:36] » Yeah. get file with it moving forward
and then I think we've already talked to
[1:12:42] Nancy for example she's got some
familiarity I believe with
[1:12:48] so you may have some internal resources
>> no that's not it
[1:12:54] » was that the quote Mary
>> no this isn't that's
[1:12:58] » that's mine but Pete did the other one
that was from a year before
[1:13:02] » a year before cuz I I see it in my notes
back in May.
[1:13:07] » I think I recommend you do what Jack
said, you know, to say up to 17,000%
[1:13:14] of the
>> cost estimate and come back if you need
[1:13:18] to come back.
[1:13:25] » Give another 2,000 in there.
[1:13:30] » That's an up. So
>> it'll be whatever.
[1:13:33] » Yeah. Everybody's aware
>> you don't need to spend it. Don't spend
[1:13:37] it.
>> I think everyone's aware of that.
[1:13:40] » If not, we can make a decree from the
board of selectmen. You must be aware.
[1:13:48] » I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion
to
[1:13:52] purchase the extra modules outlined in
our proposal up to
[1:13:59] date. Let's call it 16,000
[1:14:04] and
[1:14:08] » 16,000. If it be over, it would have to
come back to the board for view and
[1:14:13] approval.
[1:14:16] » A second. I'll second that.
>> All in favor? I
[1:14:22] » you are authorized
to move forward.
[1:14:26] » Thank you. I will call them in the
morning and
[1:14:30] send an email.
>> No,
[1:14:33] » thank you.
>> You can help me just hang with the
[1:14:36] original price.
>> Mhm.
[1:14:39] » Yeah, they have to
>> cuz we're going to need the extra cost.
[1:14:44] » We never told them you were authorized.
>> No,
[1:14:47] » they can watch.
>> You know, the fee shouldn't have to
[1:14:51] change very much, right?
>> It should have what it is.
[1:14:53] » It is what is what it is.
>> Yes. Thank you.
[1:15:02] Well, that was good.
>> Yeah,
[1:15:04] » good stuff.
>> I really feel
[1:15:05] » it. Sounds like you guys had a
productive meeting last week
[1:15:10] » and we'll continue to um meet um with
I've asked the auditors to send somebody
[1:15:19] out next Thursday as well as
to meet with Arlene and Mary and me and
[1:15:28] you guys if you're available.
>> And I know that um
[1:15:36] the Jaffrey Town finance director has
helped you out in the past and she's
[1:15:41] willing to come and help out again. So,
we'll get we'll get a number of people
[1:15:46] focus in on it.
>> Now, she's familiar. I forget her last
[1:15:51] name. Her name Fitzgerald.
>> Alisa.
[1:15:55] » Alicia. Okay.
>> It's Alisa.
[1:15:57] » Alisa, I think Es
[1:16:03] » Yeah, she has helped in the Yeah, I
spoke to her today.
[1:16:06] » We've hired her before.
>> So, she's
[1:16:12] advantage to using her is she's very
familiar with the towns.
[1:16:17] » I think she helped you with your trial
balance a couple few years ago.
[1:16:21] » Yeah.
[1:16:25] » Well, hopefully it works out.
[1:16:33] That was the big one. Any uh small round
table discussion?
[1:16:41] » Thank you for coming.
>> Good night.
[1:16:43] » Good night, Stephanie.
>> Good night.
[1:16:48] » Hello.
>> Nothing I can talk about.
[1:16:52] » No old business.
[1:16:58] All right.
[1:17:08] I can I can say that the hunt for a town
administrator permanent position
[1:17:15] continues.
>> It does.
[1:17:17] » It continues. And we thank everybody who
has submitted applications.
[1:17:23] [snorts]
[clears throat]
[1:17:24] The board is still deliberating.
Does anybody come
[1:17:31] um
in the top five?
[1:17:35] » We haven't.
>> I think the short answer is probably no.
[1:17:40] » Okay.
>> I did forward another one on to you um a
[1:17:44] couple hours ago.
>> I'm sorry. What was that?
[1:17:46] » I forwarded another resume on to you a
couple hours ago.
[1:17:49] » Oh, did you? Okay.
[1:17:53] » Sorry. I just came down from
>> Yeah. No, sorry. No problem. No rush.
[1:17:57] » Another job. Yeah,
>> it's all good.
[1:18:04] » All right, we do have uh primary
elections coming up September 8th. Polls
[1:18:10] will be open 7 to 7 at the scenic
Auditorium.
[1:18:17] » Do you think uh
is it beneficial to keep the polls open
[1:18:23] a little later or is seven like good?
>> That's been a torical. I don't think you
[1:18:28] want to go too much later on primaries.
It probably in my this is all my
[1:18:31] opinion.
>> Yeah.
[1:18:32] » Um primaries won't be an issue. Uh
townbo vote and presidential,
[1:18:41] you know, the big the fouryear
>> Mhm.
[1:18:46] » Yeah. The pole workers end up staying
[clears throat]
[1:18:51] » probably at least four hours after the
poll.
[1:18:55] » It's a long day.
>> It's a long
[1:18:57] Yeah, they're there.
>> So that to leave it open even longer
[1:19:01] than that.
>> I was just wondering if it's 7:00
[1:19:07] in the morning. Is it better to open it
a little later and keep
[1:19:12] » Well, is that what you were go You were
on the front end of it.
[1:19:14] » Yeah.
>> Ah,
[1:19:17] » I just don't know. I haven't been here
to see the history.
[1:19:19] » Yeah, I think there is. You generally
get a morning rush of of people.
[1:19:23] » You get a morning rush here. people on
their way to work,
[1:19:27] » they'll stop and vote.
>> There'll be a huge when people are uh
[1:19:32] coming out of work.
>> Yeah.
[1:19:34] » Um
>> and then it's all afterwards, it's
[1:19:38] counting the votes and and sorting them
out and doing the other and that's the
[1:19:43] part that goes in from about
>> 7:00 until 1 or 2 o'clock in the
[1:19:48] morning.
>> So, it's a long day. So, I wouldn't want
[1:19:51] to keep the full me personally as a town
moderator. Yeah,
[1:19:55] » I know those hours and you know after
you've worked 12 hours and then you
[1:19:58] actually have to do the real work making
sure you're counting all the balls and
[1:20:02] all the numbers line up and all the
forms filled out.
[1:20:04] » Yeah,
>> that's
[1:20:05] » I
highly recommend that you take a lunch
[1:20:10] hour or go take a nap. [laughter]
>> I haven't done that yet. I do take a
[1:20:15] little bit of a lunch break. We are
required by law to be there as
[1:20:22] » the moderator's
faithful servants.
[1:20:27] » Yeah.
>> Yeah.
[1:20:29] » So that's September 8th, 7 to 7.
>> Yeah. And so we should be there a little
[1:20:34] beforehand.
>> Yeah.
[1:20:36] » As select.
>> Do you know if we got our new
[1:20:42] voting machine?
>> It's there. He said he's going to have
[1:20:45] it on standby if I recall from our last
meeting.
[1:20:49] » He
>> There was an email that came out that
[1:20:52] said it was paid for,
>> right? Cuz we authorized we had it in
[1:20:58] our possession. Okay.
>> Right. We did.
[1:21:00] » We were leasing since
>> the last election.
[1:21:02] » It was a a lease to buy agreement.
>> And so that's why it was only
[1:21:08] » another $3,500 I think
>> to purchase it. So
[1:21:13] » you have one machine to have two now.
>> We have two.
[1:21:17] » They're new machines with that photo
scanning.
[1:21:21] » They work pretty slick.
>> They're they're pretty accurate.
[1:21:25] » All right. I would say very accurate.
>> Yeah. Good night, Alan.
[1:21:32] » Yeah.
I was always a little suspicious of
[1:21:36] electronic machines
>> like being a part of the process has
[1:21:42] » I can't say these things are not to be
trusted because of what I've seen hand
[1:21:49] counting and these new ones they have an
optical scanner
[1:21:53] » right
>> that records
[1:21:56] um and it'll print off
>> Oh yeah
[1:22:00] » right in votes
>> which that was a long time it took took
[1:22:04] us to tally right in
>> boats.
[1:22:06] » This thing does it. And so, um, Debbie
Deon was helping us last year and Debbie
[1:22:13] and I just asked the moderator if he
minded if we just we double checked. We
[1:22:18] didn't have to because the state sends
it like you just got the email of the
[1:22:25] election guidelines.
>> So, it's not a requirement, but I wanted
[1:22:29] to see.
>> Yeah. because we are um election
[1:22:32] officials and we do sign it
>> and I was impressed.
[1:22:38] » I was very impressed with the accuracy
how it was able to take handwriting
[1:22:44] and tabulate a list for us.
>> Wow.
[1:22:47] » And the list was good.
>> I like that. I like the idea that you
[1:22:50] can see it on a screen. So if you have
people are observing it, they can
[1:22:54] actually see the ballot.
>> It's an optical scan you can see. So
[1:22:57] it's picking up any little mark that's
either inside or within the range
[1:23:02] » and then you add those list and tallies
it up. I used to have three tables, two
[1:23:07] people at a table divy up all the
ballots and there'd be two sets of eyes
[1:23:12] on them. So I'd have one group of people
and then another one writing down the
[1:23:17] names and then you switch then that
person goes through the same pile
[1:23:22] compares it to make sure you didn't miss
anybody. So every ballot get got
[1:23:28] looked at separately by at least two
people
[1:23:31] » to make sure you didn't miss anything.
>> Oh, wow.
[1:23:33] » So, when when Debbie and I were doing,
>> right?
[1:23:36] » Yeah. You need a lot of people to do
that. But when we were doing this,
[1:23:40] » at first it came out wrong and I said,
"No, let's go through and check. Maybe
[1:23:45] we tallied wrong. It was like one vote
off." And we went through all over
[1:23:51] again. And it was we had tallied wrong.
That's the other thing is there's
[1:23:56] there's great potential for math errors
particularly on the supervisor of the
[1:24:00] checklist because they have to go
through all their books
[1:24:03] » and they total up everybody that signed
in and got a ballot but well like 20 30
[1:24:09] pages.
>> Yeah.
[1:24:11] » And uh
>> not only that
[1:24:13] » wicked math there it is there's a lot
that goes into it.
[1:24:18] » There's a lot of
>> So they're going to be doing a ballot
[1:24:20] machine test I saw in the sign out
there.
[1:24:22] » Yeah. I'm doing my tomorrow morning
>> and I think that's tomorrow morning here
[1:24:28] as well.
>> Was that the date?
[1:24:30] » Yeah, I think it is tomorrow.
>> It would be good to to observe that
[1:24:35] » to see what goes into these.
>> This is tomorrow morning when where
[1:24:40] » it's on the sign outside. I can't
remember the time. Might have been 8:00
[1:24:43] in the morning.
>> I don't you get you have to
[1:24:45] » I shouldn't say a time. Somebody wants
to observe that they can show up and
[1:24:50] observe it.
>> Yeah. [clears throat]
[1:24:51] » Yeah. I'd like to be here with that.
>> You usually run 50
[1:24:53] » Well, look at the sign outside.
>> You usually run 50 balls through every
[1:24:58] which way. So, you end up running about
200 ballots through [snorts] face up,
[1:25:02] face down, and dim in and you compare
the numbers to make sure the optical
[1:25:07] reader saw the same ballot all four
times, no matter how it was put in.
[1:25:12] » Yeah, I think yeah, Claudia is part of
that group.
[1:25:18] » Yeah. Yeah. So, that being said, like
when I was first elected,
[1:25:22] there was a recount
that was um
[1:25:28] needed on just on one of the Warren
articles.
[1:25:30] » And so, when you do a recount on that,
you're hand counting. And we had people
[1:25:36] all around the table and the moderator
was supervising and then the the people
[1:25:41] who petitioned for a recount were
walking and watching and
[1:25:48] And again, the machine was
very accurate.
[1:25:54] » Now,
I don't know. I can't speak for other
[1:25:58] like big cities and all of that. I can't
speak for that. So, I'm not saying,
[1:26:03] » "Hey, go Dominion. We love
>> I'm just saying my experience.
[1:26:08] » I have never seen an issue with the
machines here.
[1:26:12] » And if we don't have them, we will need
a lot more volunteers."
[1:26:16] » Yeah.
But it's okay.
[1:26:18] » Tough to find militaries because you
know
[1:26:23] » there's not a lot of young people
actually participating in the work.
[1:26:28] » I've been elected into an election with
older folks.
[1:26:34] » The older some people get, the more
mistakes they make.
[1:26:37] » What?
>> I heard that. That's not about us. Well,
[1:26:40] » it's other people. Okay.
>> Thanks for clarification.
[1:26:43] » Can happen.
>> Can happen.
[1:26:47] So, I think you're going to get a good
>> Yeah.
[1:26:49] » because you're being a relatively light,
>> right?
[1:26:53] » Um I mean, you never know. People can
surprise you.
[1:26:57] » A huge light election.
>> It it appears that it's going to be
[1:27:03] » what what election
>> this this primary
[1:27:06] » really. Well, the turnout is not going
to be like we have had. Like if there's
[1:27:11] a fiery march,
you know, if the deliberatives stoke a
[1:27:16] lot of energy, then them can go along
>> and then the November votes when it's
[1:27:23] presidential
tend to go.
[1:27:27] » So,
>> this this will be a nice nonpicky
[1:27:32] » election for you to
>> be inaugurated into. Yep.
[1:27:37] » Be able to see the process.
[1:27:41] » So, I have a little bit left on or a few
things for um the DPW being the liaison.
[1:27:50] » Oh, okay.
[1:27:54] » One thing I have is
I met with Peter Thursday and went kind
[1:28:01] of to the the shop and checked out the
equipment.
[1:28:06] kind of went over some of his budget
stuff for next year. Um trying to put
[1:28:13] together some stuff together with him.
One of the couple things that came up is
[1:28:19] um he was wondering about if we could
set up a time
[1:28:24] and a place and I'm not familiar with so
I need you guys' help with doing a
[1:28:30] public hearing I believe for a scenic
road
[1:28:34] um out at um Timbertop.
It's a there's a section in there that's
[1:28:40] a scenic road.
>> Okay. And there's trees that are being
[1:28:45] hit with the plow
that are like right on the the road. And
[1:28:51] he said that when he plows the between a
lot of like if a car is coming, he's had
[1:28:58] in the past have to back the plow truck
up, let the car by and then come
[1:29:03] through. Um,
um, I've been told that there was a a
[1:29:10] small either accident or something in
the past with the plow in a car or
[1:29:15] vehicle.
Um,
[1:29:18] » it's hard to see the edge of the rain
cloud.
[1:29:20] » Yeah.
>> Um, when you're driving at 20 miles an
[1:29:24] hour,
>> right?
[1:29:26] So from my understanding is [snorts]
um there's the on a scenic road you are
[1:29:34] not allowed to touch any tree that's
greater than 15 in
[1:29:39] » in circumference.
>> So
[1:29:42] » we just we just had something like that
over on um is it Collins route across
[1:29:48] from the ambulance?
>> Yeah,
[1:29:50] » I think that's
>> where I remember the
[1:29:54] the procedure. Yeah.
>> But go on.
[1:29:57] » So what he's asking is that he would he
could go out and mark potential
[1:30:04] tree or trees that he's considering that
needs to be taken out to help the
[1:30:09] plowing situation.
And we would hold a public hearing
[1:30:16] to for any resident or anybody that
wants to go look. They would be marked.
[1:30:23] Markham and just see if we could help
out that situation with the polling
[1:30:30] coming this winter.
>> So, are you looking at or thinking about
[1:30:34] just giving that an offset from from the
trees and and mark that spot?
[1:30:41] » What he was saying is he would drive the
road because he knows which trees they
[1:30:46] are and identify them with some kind of
flag.
[1:30:50] each one that he wants to remove and
then
[1:30:53] » so he wants to remove them rather than
protect them,
[1:30:56] » right? He wants to cut them down.
>> You get them beyond this the
[1:31:00] » toow. Doesn't that
>> Okay. So, we have a um somebody who's a
[1:31:06] forester who
manages that. I believe it's Becky.
[1:31:11] » Wow.
I think on a scenic road from what my
[1:31:15] understanding and this is just it's new
to me so I don't I haven't completely
[1:31:19] read [snorts]
>> but in in the hard road to travel book
[1:31:23] we read kind of the RSA of what he's
allowed or not allowed to do and right
[1:31:28] now we're not allowed to touch them.
>> Correct.
[1:31:32] » However, there is a way to address the
issue with the public by holding a
[1:31:40] public
hearing of a public meeting before
[1:31:44] winter
that we could
[1:31:48] and what we were suggesting or Peter was
suggesting is he'll go out pre-mark
[1:31:53] everything so nobody's wondering what
trees would be taken out pre-mark
[1:31:57] everything so before the hearing so
everybody can go drive it or do what
[1:32:02] they're going to do and then we can have
a a boat on it or
[1:32:07] » it seems like
On top of that, he could use his
[1:32:12] portable sign.
[1:32:16] » Yeah.
>> Right out on timber top, you know,
[1:32:18] public here.
>> Yeah.
[1:32:20] » Yeah. We would do all the posting and
all the proper things. But I'm I guess
[1:32:24] what I'm asking as a board is he's
asking me to ask us that. Can we set
[1:32:29] this up
>> and give us some trees we're talking?
[1:32:34] » Um, no. But he will go and do it. I
don't it it doesn't sound like it's a
[1:32:40] lot, but there's enough out there where
he's saying that.
[1:32:43] » You know, if we would take the trees
down using our own staff for you to
[1:32:47] something we have to spend money on, but
>> I think he would do it. I'm pretty sure
[1:32:51] he would take them down.
>> Well, it still has to go through to take
[1:32:59] the trees down. I believe it has to go
through a a state um
[1:33:06] » arburist arborist.
>> Well, either an arborist or you have
[1:33:12] state permission to take them down even
if you were taking.
[1:33:15] » Do you are you aware of the laws with
scenic roads?
[1:33:17] » I don't I'm going to have to look it up.
I haven't
[1:33:22] pleasure of
cutting trees on a scenic road. So, I
[1:33:26] don't really know. Well, that's where
apparently like I was saying is [snorts]
[1:33:32] there's the biggest factor me as a for
one for me being le liaison talking with
[1:33:38] Peter is it's a major safety problem
>> and the fact that I hear him saying that
[1:33:46] he's got to, you know, when he sees
somebody and it's so tight they got to,
[1:33:50] you know, basically slam the brakes on,
lift the wing up, back the truck kind of
[1:33:56] on the side of the road, let the car by
and go.
[1:33:58] » Yeah. No, it's
>> I mean that's a hazard.
[1:34:01] » It can be dangerous because then because
the plow can also bounce off the tree
[1:34:04] into the
>> Well, and that was the other thing he
[1:34:06] was [clears throat] saying is that he
said if you want if you kind of want to
[1:34:08] know the trees, most of them have plow
dings on them right now.
[1:34:12] » Yeah,
>> they're already marked.
[1:34:14] » Yeah,
>> you don't need to flag them,
[1:34:16] » but he will go and flag them. So,
>> and people complain about them.
[1:34:20] » But that's important to get this
procedure down.
[1:34:23] » Yeah.
>> Before he flags anything. Yeah,
[1:34:26] » we need to we need to publicly know the
procedure.
[1:34:29] » Yeah,
>> I'll look up the procedure
[1:34:31] » and be sure that uh it's something that
>> he can send out some guys with chainsaw
[1:34:37] and chipper and get it done,
>> right?
[1:34:39] » As opposed to what Lou brought up. It
may be that you need
[1:34:42] » Yeah.
>> more
[1:34:45] » permission.
>> Yeah.
[1:34:47] » And typically people who have beautiful
trees along the road don't really want
[1:34:51] to give them up,
>> but This would be within the rightway of
[1:34:56] the highway.
>> Well, I don't know because it's a scenic
[1:35:00] road. So, I there stipulations that says
I know I read the RS
[1:35:06] » uh that said that you you cannot it's
you can he can remove any I think
[1:35:12] there's a height limitation like 4T and
under 15 inches in circumference.
[1:35:19] » Do you have this guy?
>> I don't. No, I was reading it down in
[1:35:23] his
>> his office. We kind of went through it,
[1:35:27] » but
>> yeah,
[1:35:28] » 15 in is not very big. It's like
>> circumference
[1:35:33] » six or seven inch.
>> We hit this problem
[1:35:36] » probably three or four years ago.
>> Oh, wasn't that on Collins Road?
[1:35:41] » Collins Road.
>> Yeah.
[1:35:42] » And what ended up happening? Were they
able to date?
[1:35:44] » A lot of people were pissed off.
>> Okay.
[1:35:48] » What about the procedure that I think I
think they were less than 6 in
[1:35:54] » and that's why he just I think he marked
them out and said these are coming down
[1:35:59] » and we're allowed to.
>> Now I'm curious if there's any
[1:36:02] conservation
organizations along that scenic road
[1:36:07] stretch cuz
>> could be you know
[1:36:10] » if there's a conservation easement along
there then they have a say. The other
[1:36:16] option of course is send a smaller truck
but
[1:36:22] » for one stretch of the road
>> option of course is what?
[1:36:25] » Send a smaller truck.
>> Yeah. Pickup truck.
[1:36:27] » Yes.
>> Rather than a 10 wheeler, you know, send
[1:36:30] a [snorts] 350 something. But
>> the issue is is most of the road is
[1:36:36] wide.
>> Yeah.
[1:36:37] » And then it goes into the scenic road.
>> So what would you do? all the the little
[1:36:43] bit or not little bit but the portion of
the road with one truck and then you're
[1:36:46] sending in another.
>> It's it's it's that would be labor
[1:36:50] intensive.
>> Yeah. Well, it's Yeah. And then I mean
[1:36:53] usually when you have a lot of snow and
you don't have a lot of room to push it
[1:36:58] out,
>> right?
[1:36:59] » I mean a pickup truck may not even be
able to pile it at times, right?
[1:37:04] » And then you got the issue of salt and
sand back. But I get it.
[1:37:09] So anyway, I'd like to know how to
[clears throat]
[1:37:12] do that. Um, and then
the second thing that I have is
[1:37:19] um
[1:37:23] is that he was um he's got a request to
add a street light.
[1:37:30] » Powerful. A street light.
>> A street light. Yeah, I saw that. and we
[1:37:36] just want to know like what's associated
with that kind of project or what is our
[1:37:40] procedure as a town. I don't I'm not
sure.
[1:37:44] » I guess it would depend on the location.
Further information on that.
[1:37:49] » Um they're saying it's on Spindle Back
Lane.
[1:37:55] So, there was a request from a resident
for a to add a street light on a power
[1:38:01] pole
and
[1:38:05] Peter was wanting to know basically
he knows that there's cost associated
[1:38:10] with the project and he's just wondering
if we get more information on the
[1:38:16] process and also
>> just to let it know let the resident
[1:38:21] know how it works. And we have had
in my time as selectman at least three
[1:38:28] requests to remove street lights
>> by people who live next door there.
[1:38:34] » Yeah.
>> Why is there a street light?
[1:38:36] » Well, it it does frequently cost about
30 bucks a month
[1:38:42] » for a street light depending on
>> That's about right. Yeah.
[1:38:46] » Pay them to put it up or whatever, but
I' I'd imagine it's just a vote from the
[1:38:52] board to add another street light
>> but
[1:38:57] » I would like to know how many we have
and pay for
[1:39:00] » that was my question
>> it should be in AP [snorts]
[1:39:03] » yeah one of
>> separated
[1:39:06] » a number of years ago
>> um
[1:39:09] your electrical utility
>> ever so typically they they identify by
[1:39:14] cost and location
>> yeah uh all the street lights and Um
[1:39:21] because a lot of times
you never know whether the street light
[1:39:26] is out until somebody complains and you
call up the utility and say, "Hey, I'm
[1:39:29] paying 30 bucks a month whether this
thing is on or not. This one's out.
[1:39:34] » Fix it."
>> But
[1:39:38] then let me try to look into it.
Some of the people that were complaining
[1:39:42] about the street lights were always in
the middle of the park um because the
[1:39:47] cotton lights weren't going down until
after 11:00 11 p.m.
[1:39:53] » Weren't going on until after
>> until 10 or 11 p.m.
[1:39:58] So, uh you know, their complaint was it
was coming right into their living room
[1:40:02] or whatever.
>> And um I don't remember how it got
[1:40:08] settled out, but I remember
what the the length of time was or or
[1:40:15] anything else, but we've become much
more sensitive to it.
[1:40:20] » This was especially when they were
bringing in new street lights for night
[1:40:25] games for the league group.
[1:40:30] » Have you have you gone through any sort
of transition from
[1:40:36] halli lights or sodium vapor to LEDs.
>> Yeah, that was when I was both when we
[1:40:42] were first come on. It was winding down.
>> So, your LED.
[1:40:48] [clears throat]
[1:40:55] » Yeah, that's a good question.
>> I I'll look at it. I'm pretty sure
[1:41:02] it should be easy to know how many
they're building and
[1:41:06] » Yeah.
[1:41:11] It it
joged my memory on an email
[1:41:17] that I received
maybe a month and a half ago of a
[1:41:22] resident
asking if we could get fiber optic cable
[1:41:27] put into town. I guess it's not cable at
that point, fiber optic internet. I
[1:41:33] asked Jack if there was any kind of
processes
[1:41:37] uh he pointed me to some of the RSAs
that would authorize the select men to
[1:41:47] there's a few different avenues that are
available in doing it.
[1:41:54] » From what I read, the town could
actually offer a financing package to a
[1:42:00] company to come in and run the fiber
optics. [snorts]
[1:42:06] » We have
had fiber optic
[1:42:09] » and this is where
>> throughout the whole town until this
[1:42:11] that snowstorm
the one that that knocked down
[1:42:18] » I'm not aware of that
>> it was all the whole town was wired up
[1:42:23] for fiber optic and then when that
snowstorm came around and
[1:42:28] » the ice storm
>> the ice storm
[1:42:29] » that took that cut
>> that broke every utility pole in
[1:42:36] at the base.
>> You can kind of picture that.
[1:42:41] » I mean, I I understand we have Comcast
cable and I'm not clear why that's not
[1:42:48] sufficient,
but I did a little bit of looking into
[1:42:53] it and it sounds like the town could
offer up a bond. So, we would loan the
[1:42:57] money based on the our taxpayers would
be backing it to a company to come in
[1:43:05] and
get infrastructure in.
[1:43:08] » Well, I think that's what's happening
over in Greenville right now.
[1:43:13] » Yeah, there's frequently a broadband
initiative and um the company that would
[1:43:19] install the broadband does the math in
terms of how many potential customers
[1:43:25] they could get.
>> And then that drives the investment
[1:43:30] number for them. and then they
um pay off the loan, right, based on
[1:43:41] their subscriber fees, right?
>> And um basically, um the town's not
[1:43:47] really on the hook for if there's enough
potential subscribers for them to pay
[1:43:53] off the bond, they simply do that. It
just saves the utility from having to
[1:43:58] take out to do that. The town does it,
but the is
[1:44:04] has a hold list so that they won't be on
the hook for it
[1:44:08] » once the utility signs on that's hey we
can pay for this then they own it
[1:44:13] basically you borrow the money they're
going to pay it off
[1:44:17] » it has some risk
>> and you go ahead and tell which lines
[1:44:21] have have or which utility poles have
fiber optic because they'll usually be
[1:44:26] the fiber optic is um uh painted or
covered over uh with
[1:44:36] orange
>> orange. Yeah.
[1:44:38] » On the top of the pole.
>> Well, the the line itself you can see it
[1:44:42] on the pole.
>> So, they usually run on the poles and
[1:44:46] not under
>> on the utility.
[1:44:48] » Oh, right. You wouldn't There's not
enough money on Earth to run all
[1:44:51] underground
>> because we grow rocks around here. So,
[1:44:54] the digging is terrible. You know that,
right?
[1:44:56] » Yeah. No, they they string it right up
and and so generally
[1:45:01] The lower voltage is closer to
>> it's the lowest one.
[1:45:05] » The higher up you go on the pole, the
higher the voltage is.
[1:45:08] » Yeah.
>> Yeah.
[1:45:09] » And then they just work out the spacing.
>> Well, actually the second line up which
[1:45:13] would be red is for alarm systems.
>> Also,
[1:45:18] » in any case,
>> it looked like the options that I saw
[1:45:23] for the board and you could do your own
research.
[1:45:27] I think I had left them papers at home
on my office desk. They didn't they
[1:45:33] didn't appear to me to be um what I
would consider a viable option for us.
[1:45:41] They they carried risk.
>> Yeah.
[1:45:44] » The options that are available
and
[1:45:49] » and I mean nowadays the
[1:45:55] internet off of the cable is pretty fast
now compared to where it used to be.
[1:46:02] » And
>> yeah, you'd have to do your own test at
[1:46:06] home.
>> Yeah.
[1:46:06] » Your up and down speeds.
>> Yeah.
[1:46:09] » But I'm just saying in general,
>> your broadband is got to be 10 times the
[1:46:13] download.
>> Yeah.
[1:46:14] » That your cable is.
>> Yeah.
[1:46:16] » Imagine.
>> That's true. Yeah.
[1:46:18] Uh, and in fact, that's what I don't
know if you've noticed, but AT&T is uh
[1:46:24] having their AT&T
over the air
[1:46:28] program.
>> Oh, are they?
[1:46:30] » When is that? Is that available now?
>> It is. Just you call them up and they'll
[1:46:37] tell you if uh if it'll actually reach
you.
[1:46:44] » I've heard of that. And it's all
>> long time ago. I heard that's how all
[1:46:47] the internet was going to be
>> and it it'll be
[1:46:50] » digital air waves.
>> Well, you know, you also have satellite
[1:46:54] stuff.
>> Yeah.
[1:46:55] » And that's kind of
>> that's a biggie for Elon Musk.
[1:47:00] » Yeah.
>> It's working.
[1:47:03] I mean and and even if the risks are
very low to the town, I am more prone to
[1:47:10] be let the market
do what it does. If if a provider sees
[1:47:18] an opportunity in our town, I would
think they would be approaching
[1:47:24] us
>> and we wouldn't have to have 20, 30 year
[1:47:28] bonds being [snorts] let out possibly.
>> It's, you know,
[1:47:33] It all depends. If AT&T has got a a good
market in a particular area,
[1:47:40] um they're using 5G for uh for their
internet.
[1:47:49] » Unfortunately, we have a great
um antenna up uh
[1:47:56] by wherever that the road is. Um and
that uh the top lines over there are not
[1:48:09] AT&T. They're something else
>> on your road.
[1:48:14] » No, this is the one. What was the what
was the place that we were we were put
[1:48:19] having the um
um
[1:48:24] the tower?
>> Oh, older.
[1:48:27] » Older room.
[1:48:32] And we have an antenna. Uh we we had a
contract on on the application
[1:48:42] where um we allowed them to put it in
the way they wanted to, but we had to
[1:48:48] have the top space for that.
>> Yeah. That
[1:48:52] » that line
>> last year it was shot down
[1:48:56] on the March ballot. We were we had a
quote to get our emergency services set
[1:49:03] up there and it
>> but that was going to be a hard one
[1:49:05] because it was about 186 or 189,000.
>> Now it's probably going to be more
[1:49:10] because another year went by,
>> right?
[1:49:14] » Yep.
And that's the vertex tower, which we're
[1:49:19] unsure of where the uh bond is
extra.
[1:49:28] All right. Do you have any other items,
>> Lou?
[1:49:35] » No.
>> I did want to bring up again our uh
[1:49:40] warrant for next year. Any thoughts on
it?
[1:49:47] just we have to draft up the warrant for
next March. So you look at last year's
[1:49:54] and then consider if the board wants to
put another article in here.
[1:50:11] It's something something we should be
thinking about. And for every year that
[1:50:16] I've been on board, I've said I'd like
to see an article that establishes an
[1:50:22] actual budget committee,
[1:50:27] which we have had in the past.
What would that look like?
[1:50:32] » That would be that would take away your
power to set the budget as a select.
[1:50:39] » So you could set it up. So basically
it's I believe it's a two3 two vote
[1:50:45] maybe just some
>> um to establish a budget committee and
[1:50:49] then you have the wording and um you
could have the budget committee
[1:50:55] comprised of so many members
probably elected. So they they'd get
[1:51:02] elected town meeting
>> and um they would kind of do what what
[1:51:07] Stephanie does, which is that they would
meet with department heads, review their
[1:51:12] budgets, make recommendations,
and um and then the board gets to weigh
[1:51:18] in
and um on what the budget committee has
[1:51:23] done. You could decide you like what
they've done or not like what they've
[1:51:26] done or um and and usually there's a
select board representative on a budget
[1:51:32] committee so that this this body can
kind of be kept in the loop of what that
[1:51:38] body is doing.
>> And um and if you want to try to
[1:51:42] influence their decisions on budget just
based based on your experience as a
[1:51:47] select board, you put that input in and
then the budget committee has a public
[1:51:52] hearing on the budget and they present
it to the public and then it goes to
[1:51:58] meeting and there'll be a warn article
recommending it one way or another.
[1:52:04] » So, but it but it does put the budgeting
process into that committees.
[1:52:10] » It does and the authority of the budget.
>> So, it kind of reverses what we have
[1:52:15] now. The selectman become more of an
advisory to the budget committee if I'm
[1:52:20] understanding it correctly. Yep. Yep.
>> I know last year we had on the ballot to
[1:52:29] turn this to a five member board.
[1:52:34] » And did that pass?
>> No.
[1:52:37] » It's the same.
It was a petitioned article.
[1:52:43] » Yeah.
>> Right here.
[1:52:48] » But I think
In my mind, uh there's a lot that comes
[1:52:55] to this board.
[1:53:02] » Yeah, I was pushing that raising the the
board to five.
[1:53:08] » Um because that in my opinion it gives
you a a wider spread on ideas from each
[1:53:16] of the people.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We went through pros and
[1:53:21] cons. I was
pretty neutral
[1:53:25] on it,
[1:53:31] but my thought is is that there's a lot
that comes here
[1:53:36] » and
that having a an actual budget committee
[1:53:42] would allow this board to focus on
things that,
[1:53:49] you know, like building number two and
all these things that just have such a
[1:53:55] hard time getting traction
because
[1:54:01] you might just start the ball rolling
and now it's budget season
[1:54:05] » but it was taking all the power away
from
[1:54:08] » it was for the budget. Yeah, we we the
the select men would become managers of
[1:54:13] what the budget committee
>> but they didn't have the right
[1:54:21] to go against the budget committee.
>> Well, I mean, you can voice your
[1:54:25] opinion. It's America
>> and you're an elect you're elected to
[1:54:29] represent the people and if you feel
that the budget committee is going
[1:54:32] against the people, it would be your
duty
[1:54:35] to tell that budget committee you are
not
[1:54:39] doing what the people elected and I
don't know if you can do a whole lot
[1:54:43] more than that, but you can at least do
that.
[1:54:46] » Well, of course, you work with to see
what roads he wants to tackle and get
[1:54:53] some general pricing on that that you
build in.
[1:54:58] » Yeah, we do have an active road
committee.
[1:55:01] » Oh, okay.
>> Have you been to any of the meetings
[1:55:04] yet?
>> No.
[1:55:05] » So, I think they usually have one
towards the end of the year to review.
[1:55:10] Right now, it's ongoing.
>> Yeah.
[1:55:12] » The projects that they slated for this
year.
[1:55:15] » Yeah. So I think they will typically
have one to review how that went
[1:55:21] and then
double check the list.
[1:55:28] » Pretty hard on road because they still
have to do the top coat.
[1:55:34] » I [clears throat] believe I read that
they're working on
[1:55:37] » Yeah.
>> Is the paving crew in town yet or do you
[1:55:40] know?
>> Haven't seen
[1:55:41] » they haven't done yet.
[1:55:46] So this budget committee so what um so
the purpose or the reasoning you're
[1:55:54] thinking is
is it similar to the finance committee?
[1:56:00] » No it's it would turn the dynamics that
the if you want to call it the power
[1:56:06] dynamics
>> it would be turned on its head.
[1:56:09] » Yeah. They would have the authority.
>> Yeah. Well, is the finance committee
[1:56:16] just a
>> their advisory
[1:56:18] » volunteer? So, this would probably
actually replace the finance committee.
[1:56:22] Yeah, it would it would evolve
>> and then the budget committee would hold
[1:56:25] I'll say quarterly meetings as often as
they want but quarterly meetings to
[1:56:30] monitor the budget produce a report
quarterly budget report [clears throat]
[1:56:35] that could be presented here or at their
own meeting or but somehow you get it
[1:56:39] out there so that people can monitor the
budget.
[1:56:41] » That was my next question is could they
go further and
[1:56:47] do the quarterlys
you know or be in charge of ing them or
[1:56:52] assembling it,
>> right?
[1:56:54] » You know, and then presenting that to
the select board,
[1:56:59] » right?
>> Just as a review. And
[1:57:01] » yeah, and you you could we could look at
wording
[1:57:06] that petitioner say no less. They the
budget committee would meet no less than
[1:57:10] quarterly. Yeah. Report their results to
the select board.
[1:57:16] » Something like that.
>> Yeah. So
[1:57:20] » yeah,
>> it hasn't been met with welcome arms by
[1:57:26] no matter who I've served with. Um,
and that's okay. I didn't I haven't
[1:57:32] pushed the issue.
>> So, you know, it it's actually
[1:57:36] it's actually not a bad dynamic to have
a five member board and a budget
[1:57:40] committee because it it actually
increases the public participation and
[1:57:44] transparency in view.
And you know, communities like that. Not
[1:57:50] not all of them, but
>> yeah.
[1:57:53] » But then you then you have to actually
find people that want to
[1:57:57] » do the work.
>> This is the problem. That was one of my
[1:58:00] because I like I said, I was pretty
neutral on the fiveman board.
[1:58:04] » There there's definite advantages and
then the disadvantages.
[1:58:09] One that really stuck out at me is you
may end up with a permanently
[1:58:16] appointed board members because so the
election happens and nobody puts a name
[1:58:22] in. Now by law we don't
the select men then
[1:58:29] appoint the unfilled thing until next
year.
[1:58:33] So you could it could backfire on you
and you could end up with a more stacked
[1:58:38] board.
>> So it was a well if nobody runs then you
[1:58:44] stay three. I mean you get to fill a
vacancy but
[1:58:49] I guess we'd actually want to check
procedurally whether I mean a vacancy
[1:58:56] could be you run you win and then you
die or you move. That's a vacancy.
[1:59:02] But when is a vacancy not a vacancy?
Well, maybe when somebody didn't run in
[1:59:06] the first place.
>> That's just
[1:59:08] » Okay. So, I suppose
>> so we'd have to answer that question.
[1:59:11] » It would depend on what So, it's a
quorum.
[1:59:14] » Yeah. Otherwise, you could stack your
own deck. You know what I mean?
[1:59:17] » So, I'm just not sure the answer to
that. But,
[1:59:19] » you're right. I didn't think of that.
Three might be the quorum and there
[1:59:23] would be no need.
>> Three would be.
[1:59:26] » Yeah. So there might be no need to
appoint
[1:59:31] » maybe I don't know I didn't research
>> I think nor did I think the board would
[1:59:35] have the option
>> I think there'd be a certain amount of
[1:59:39] pressure to fill a vacant seat
>> because once the town votes for five
[1:59:44] they kind of want five. They don't want
three. They wanted three. They would
[1:59:48] have voted for five. So there's a fair
amount of pressure to to replace that
[1:59:52] seat
>> to carry out the wishes of the voters.
[1:59:57] Yeah. The the push for the people who
didn't want it was that well now you're
[2:00:03] going to be paying three five salaries
instead of three salaries.
[2:00:07] » Well, the the pay rate
>> we make a whole
[2:00:12] [clears throat]
>> that was that was probably from a few
[2:00:16] individuals
>> would say that.
[2:00:20] Well, that's a that's a good point
because um
[2:00:28] you probably want to fix the price in
there so that the budget committee
[2:00:34] couldn't
[2:00:37] [laughter]
right put a dollar in there.
[2:00:43] So that that's that's Yeah. So those are
things that which is why a lot of times
[2:00:48] you're elected treasurer have a statuto
warrant article fee and it's not up to
[2:00:53] the board to decide I'm not going to pay
the treasurer. You can't do that because
[2:00:57] they're an independent elected official.
So they typically are associated with a
[2:01:02] fixed amount of compensation determined
by the voters.
[2:01:09] » Interesting.
So, we're not drafting the warrant now,
[2:01:13] but I want to put that
>> I think it would be beneficial in that
[2:01:20] there are people that we hear from
whose only
[2:01:27] concern is finances.
>> Sure.
[2:01:30] » That's their only concern. And then we
have others who are like, "Hey,
[2:01:36] » what are you doing with building two?" I
mean, I know they're very closely
[2:01:40] related, the finances and that, but
[2:01:45] » there's a lot of work and and I think as
sitting in this chair
[2:01:49] » and people ask how much time do you have
to give
[2:01:54] » have to give you got to come to these
meetings
[2:01:59] at least most of them all right if you
want to go minimum
[2:02:03] but could give
80 hours a week
[2:02:09] » or more.
>> Yeah, you could. And so
[2:02:14] » yeah,
>> and certainly
[2:02:16] » town administrator point of view
>> um I mean you are responsible for
[2:02:22] running the town and you do get to make
those decisions
[2:02:26] » and so yeah you you it's not just
showing up at meetings because you have
[2:02:30] to you have to understand enough about
the operations and the departments in
[2:02:34] order to get to a meeting like this and
make sound decisions with the
[2:02:38] information. So yeah, no, it's a
commitment.
[2:02:41] » It's a commitment.
>> It is.
[2:02:43] » But but that in a way that also makes
five person board easier because you can
[2:02:47] say, well, you're DPW, you're police,
fire, you're somebody else, you're
[2:02:53] somebody else. You kind of divvy up the
workload
[2:02:56] and then those people kind of report in
just like you
[2:02:59] » on on, you know, what what's going on.
[2:03:08] » Yeah. I just wonder on
I mean I can see for the future reality.
[2:03:14] It's probably
something that I guess I don't know my
[2:03:20] what I think of it, but I do know like
as a board like um
[2:03:28] I wouldn't want to
pile more onto another committee
[2:03:34] without
knowing exactly like I don't know if
[2:03:39] it'd be a good idea to add one now.
>> Yeah. Well, And that would it would go
[2:03:44] on the one right next year.
>> Yeah.
[2:03:47] » We can't that's something only the
voters can do.
[2:03:50] » Correct.
>> Is this budget committee
[2:03:52] » Yeah.
>> idea. Yeah.
[2:03:56] [clears throat]
>> And in fact I think the same applies
[2:03:58] with the finance advisory committee. It
is the voters who approve it.
[2:04:03] » Are those elected position?
>> They're not elected. Okay.
[2:04:05] » There's an advisor you appoint them
>> but the selectmen are okay.
[2:04:09] » The appointees.
>> Okay.
[2:04:13] winters. Sorry.
>> Yeah.
[2:04:17] » Well, you know, you you've had Is this
your third default budget in 10 years or
[2:04:24] so? At least the second, isn't it?
>> It could be
[2:04:30] somewhere in there.
So maybe
[2:04:34] maybe a budget committee would help help
people
[2:04:38] learn about the budget, understand the
budget, get more involvement. You know,
[2:04:42] the budget committee could make periodic
reports in whatever way they want. Just
[2:04:47] go right on the website or
newsletter or something or report it out
[2:04:52] here in minutes. But
there is a process that's helpful to
[2:04:59] educate the public on the budget so they
can understand what it is they're paying
[2:05:03] for, particularly if it goes up.
Obviously, if it goes up because it's
[2:05:06] going to go up forever. It'll go up
forever. Utilities are going to cost
[2:05:10] more. Labor is going to cost more.
Health insurance is going to cost more.
[2:05:13] On and on it goes. And and you're not
necessarily adding services.
[2:05:19] It's just I mean look at the 30%
increase in dump trucks for example.
[2:05:26] » I mean fire engines gone from 800,000 to
1.2 million.
[2:05:32] » So the select can also do that as well.
>> Yeah.
[2:05:36] » I mean the select can
>> No, that's absolutely true.
[2:05:38] » Once we get the full understanding of it
to be able to present it,
[2:05:43] » we will have to
>> hold a budget hearing, public hearing
[2:05:46] just like a budget committee would.
Yeah,
[2:05:50] » that's coming up.
[2:05:54] » Yeah. So, that was one thought I had and
we will be voting on our next year's
[2:05:59] warrant at some point of what we're
going to have.
[2:06:02] » Do you typically get any communication
from the planning board or zoning? They
[2:06:08] will
they
[2:06:11] » planning boards ends up
having CIP trying to um
[2:06:20] target as to when the next police car or
>> or um um police car,
[2:06:31] » right?
>> Yeah. dump truck
[2:06:36] would be targeted to come in. And
actually, I did one that went back like
[2:06:42] 20 years. And you know, it actually
stayed fairly consistent that a dump
[2:06:48] truck was good for 12 years.
[2:06:52] A um
the back hole was good for
[2:06:58] I think it was like nine years and then
traded in for a new one because that way
[2:07:03] it still had some value.
>> Yeah.
[2:07:06] » Etc. etc.
>> So you're talking zoning ordinances or
[2:07:11] » Yeah. sort of a thing.
>> Yeah.
[2:07:13] » Yeah. They they typically are working
>> Okay.
[2:07:17] » independent of us.
>> Okay. and we'll just we'll see when
[2:07:21] they're done, we'll find out
what article number our budget is and
[2:07:27] then we begin from there.
>> Mhm.
[2:07:32] » So, the other one I had in mind was um
breaking apart
[2:07:39] what was article 9 last year uh the
capital reserves and expendable trust.
[2:07:46] I've noticed
towns do it
[2:07:50] similar to this in other towns. Just
break them right apart
[2:07:55] and it makes for a long warrant. We have
one, two, three, four,
[2:08:04] » nine of them in one article.
I think it could be combined like
[2:08:10] highway department expendable trust,
building maintenance expendable trust.
[2:08:17] them could be together.
>> Yeah. Fire has three. Them could go
[2:08:23] together.
>> And then pool and parks and rec could go
[2:08:28] together.
[2:08:33] » How does your town do it?
>> Um, it's a mix, but I think we kind of
[2:08:39] break them up into categories.
>> Yeah.
[2:08:41] » I mean, you know, some people like the
fire department, they don't like the
[2:08:44] police. Some people like
Okay, they just pass the whole thing.
[2:08:48] But
>> but
[2:08:52] um
I think for the moderator it can be a
[2:08:56] little easier. I mean I read all of
these and make sure that people
[2:08:59] understand what's in there just because
and so you throw out too many numbers
[2:09:06] and by the time you get to the fourth
number, you've forgotten the first
[2:09:08] number.
>> You know, you've got a good moderator.
[2:09:13] But you you saw what happened last year.
The whole thing was voted down and it
[2:09:20] may have been because of
I don't know. It's hard to say what it
[2:09:25] was, but possibly
some of them may have passed
[2:09:33] had they been separate had they been
separated.
[2:09:36] » But you know that but you could you can
always make an amendment from the floor.
[2:09:41] I move that we
amend article 9 by
[2:09:47] deleting X and X and if the crowd wants
to do it then that article goes amended
[2:09:54] » that was that deliberative session.
>> Yeah, that was attempted at the
[2:09:58] deliberative but somehow
the
[2:10:04] person who was not trying to make this
adjustment to it got sidetracked.
[2:10:10] » Okay. and got thrown off course I think
because of the discussion it ended up
[2:10:16] starting to going to
I I [snorts] don't recall but
[2:10:23] I think it would make sense to have
four
[2:10:29] [clears throat] it's something again
we're not voting on it tonight but it's
[2:10:33] something for the board to think about
and I've had a few a few people um
[2:10:39] request
both within the town
[2:10:44] and
>> and request what?
[2:10:47] » Separated capital reserves.
>> Reserves. Yeah.
[2:10:51] » Requests.
[2:10:54] » Yeah.
>> Well, we had, you know, some big numbers
[2:11:00] there because as far as the uh the tower
that was going to beundred, I think it
[2:11:07] was 86. That was Yeah, that was just a
warrant and I I hope it comes on again
[2:11:11] because I think we need it. That was a
communication for the emergency
[2:11:17] services. Yeah, you're right. It was
180,000.
[2:11:20] » Yeah. Yeah. And [clears throat] um
but there was also a small cadre of of
[2:11:29] individuals that was on a push of you
know we don't want anything out there
[2:11:37] because it's going to cost money and
we're paying too much taxes as it is
[2:11:41] now. [clears throat]
>> That was in a small cadre. That was the
[2:11:44] majority. That's why everything got
voted no right through us and through
[2:11:50] the school.
>> There was a small cadre that started off
[2:11:54] you know with that whole concept and
then that uh got spread out throughout
[2:12:00] all the
>> Yeah.
[2:12:02] » I don't know. I'll leave it to the
political analysts they can figure out
[2:12:05] what happened. All I heard was too much
money being spent.
[2:12:13] Yeah. Then we had a we'll have petition
work,
[2:12:16] » you know, look at what the that things
that we had no control over like the
[2:12:20] school budget.
>> Yeah.
[2:12:22] » Right. The school budget went up to what
24 million.
[2:12:25] » Mhm.
>> Yeah.
[2:12:28] And uh and that's a big kick.
>> Yeah.
[2:12:31] » You know, especially for a school that's
got what 800 students or something like
[2:12:36] that.
>> Now, when we had the reps here, they
[2:12:40] [clears throat] confirmed what the
moderator said. there is going to be a
[2:12:44] school
um budget tax cap.
[2:12:50] I don't know. Is that a referendum
question? Kind of.
[2:12:54] » It's kind of a real weird dynamic
because the state is putting it on the
[2:12:58] ballot.
If our towns vote for it, we're
[2:13:03] the school board then has to institute
it, which
[2:13:07] » unless unless it's there's a override
vote by the taxpayers
[2:13:12] » on the March vote.
>> Yeah.
[2:13:15] » So,
>> yeah, write it. I think
[2:13:19] » I think it's might even be two vote.
>> Yeah, I think so.
[2:13:25] » But something but you can override it, I
think.
[2:13:28] » And you can do it temporarily
>> for a year. you can say no this year we
[2:13:34] need to go more than so there's that was
attempted
[2:13:39] three years ago here
and then subsequent years and it was
[2:13:43] attempted last year with both the town
and the school
[2:13:48] » yeah I mean in a matter of three years
it went from it was
[2:13:53] 17,000 18,000 to
I'm sorry
[2:13:57] » million million rather up to
And that's a big jump for an area with
[2:14:06] with this many students.
>> And like I said during the the um
[2:14:13] conference with the um
with the people running is that um you
[2:14:19] know they're only graduating
um 18 to 24 students
[2:14:26] per year out of the out of the high
school. And you you're paying $24
[2:14:32] million to
>> Yeah. The numbers change. Yeah. I don't
[2:14:36] know what the
>> Well, in large measure, the numbers
[2:14:40] change at the school level because the
state pulls back the funding that
[2:14:45] they've historically done. Like they
required
[2:14:50] transportation for out of school
placement for disabilities and so forth
[2:14:55] and they used to fund it. Well, then
they decided, well, we're not going to
[2:14:57] pay that bill anymore. So you have to
pay it. They still require you to
[2:15:01] provide all these services,
>> but now you have to pay for it. You
[2:15:04] didn't have to pay for it before.
>> But that wasn't happening here.
[2:15:08] » Oh yes, it is.
>> It just happen.
[2:15:10] » It has because you're subject to the
same state funding for transportation,
[2:15:14] special ed, out of school placement, and
all the rest because it's just part of
[2:15:17] the state budget.
>> So
[2:15:19] » yeah. Well, it could be part of the
state budget, but
[2:15:22] » but it's important, I think, for the
taxpayers to understand
[2:15:26] what are the expenses that we've
actually increased because we made that
[2:15:30] decision and what's the impact of cost
shifting at the state level because the
[2:15:36] state always likes to say, "Oh, we're
living within our means." Well, no,
[2:15:39] they're not. They're just not paying the
bills anymore and they're shoving them
[2:15:43] down to you and you can't avoid them
because otherwise you'll violate the
[2:15:46] statute. And so, there's the shifting
argument, but then there's also the
[2:15:51] local increase itself and you have to be
able to distinguish those.
[2:15:56] » So, how can the town fight that
>> elect different people to the
[2:16:01] legislature to actually fund the
promises and stop breaking them?
[2:16:04] » It did the same.
>> I'm just saying if the state decided to
[2:16:07] say, hey, it's your problem now.
>> They've been doing it for a decade.
[2:16:11] » Well, they've been doing it over
>> it was discussed and the problem I think
[2:16:16] I think that
>> that's been 15 years that Yeah.
[2:16:20] » Claremont.
>> What's it down? Claremont. Yeah.
[2:16:22] » And it's just, you know, the judges came
down on them or the Supreme Court came
[2:16:27] down on them saying, "You have to pay
this."
[2:16:30] » And and nobody's doing it,
>> right? And you know why? Because
[2:16:36] » the Supreme Court can say, "Hey, you
should fund education better."
[2:16:40] » But they don't have the ability, the
authority to appropriate the money,
[2:16:45] » the money to make [clears throat] that
happen. That's the legislature. So
[2:16:48] Supreme Court can say whatever they
want. They can't force the legislature
[2:16:51] to fund it. They just can't. They never
have. That's why it's been unresolved 15
[2:16:56] years.
>> So, so there is
[2:16:58] » the municipal level
um the state encouraged every community
[2:17:04] to join the state retirement system and
they promised that they would pay a
[2:17:08] substantial percentage. That was the
endorsement. They made that promise.
[2:17:13] Well, then four or five years ago, they
decided maybe not so much. So, they
[2:17:18] pulled the funding from like 50% now
back to 35%. And then they went to zero.
[2:17:23] That added millions and millions of
dollars onto the back of the property
[2:17:27] taxpayer.
>> Oh, check out the retirement line on on
[2:17:30] payroll.
>> Yeah. You never used to pay that because
[2:17:33] the state broke its promise and they
said, "Oh, we can't afford that
[2:17:37] anymore."
What they done down here at the
[2:17:40] property? We said, "What are we supposed
to do?" Oh, you'll just have to pay it.
[2:17:44] So, yeah, the state lived within its
means because they're picking your
[2:17:48] pocket and they're forcing their bills
down onto you
[2:17:53] » and that's why most people's property
taxes have increased.
[2:17:56] » So, that's that is one aspect. And the
retirement thing I I agree with the
[2:18:02] school funding.
>> Um, it depends if you want the thing is
[2:18:06] is if you want the state to take and
start kicking in more
[2:18:12] What happens?
You know what happens is the state now
[2:18:17] because if the state is going to be
funding the majority of our education
[2:18:22] cost, they will control.
>> And it was brought up when we had the uh
[2:18:27] representatives here. They said, not
that it would happen in Newswitch, but
[2:18:32] maybe the state would look and say,
"Hey, you don't have enough students.
[2:18:37] We're shutting your district down.
you're moving your kids
[2:18:41] to
>> Limeboro because we're not going to keep
[2:18:46] funding you when you only have this many
students. And so there there is a
[2:18:51] there's a balancing act to be had there.
>> Yeah. But look at the problems that
[2:18:55] Peter or that school district is having
now.
[2:18:58] » Look at every school district.
>> Yeah.
[2:19:00] » Right. I mean Peterbr's lo are they
losing students and then to keep the
[2:19:05] buildings open becomes the
>> yeah you have a certain amount of cost
[2:19:10] regardless of if there's any difference
>> right if you have a 100 less students
[2:19:14] the building costs don't change
>> they don't keep the heat and the lights
[2:19:17] on
>> still mass mass yeah still going to fix
[2:19:21] the roof
>> although you can decommission a building
[2:19:26] and consolidate
True.
[2:19:32] » So that but that can be a local
decision.
[2:19:35] But if if it becomes a state funded
system.
[2:19:39] » Yeah. But but see I don't no see I
disagree because the state used to fund
[2:19:44] it. They decided that they wanted to
give a break. Uh they wanted to reduce
[2:19:51] the revenue they collect from at the
state level from like the business
[2:19:55] enterprise and and that sort of thing.
So they reduced the they reduced their
[2:20:01] budget and they shifted those costs.
They don't have any more or less control
[2:20:05] now than they've ever had. Um they just
don't want to pay for it anymore.
[2:20:13] » I've actually done quite a bit of
analysis on it. I have to send you the
[2:20:16] article.
>> I did read your I did read that.
[2:20:18] » The numbers don't lie. Those are state
numbers. Those are the numbers from the
[2:20:22] DRA.
>> Can you send me a copy of that?
[2:20:24] » Sure.
>> Maybe
[2:20:26] Jason. I don't know if I can remember
where I saw it [clears throat] when when
[2:20:30] we were
>> It was It was in a news news. It was in
[2:20:32] a magazine.
>> Yeah.
[2:20:34] » Yeah.
>> NHMA magazine.
[2:20:36] » It was NHMA
>> that had the article.
[2:20:40] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, that's interesting.
[2:20:43] » Yeah.
>> It was an interesting night with our
[2:20:45] » actually if you if you remember my
bottom line,
[2:20:49] » if the state hadn't been downshifting
costs for the last 10 years, the local
[2:20:54] property tax would actually be lower
today.
[2:20:57] than what was 10 years ago.
>> And what would the state property tax
[2:21:02] look like with inflation?
>> Whatever it is.
[2:21:06] » Yeah.
>> That's the problem.
[2:21:07] » Would my bill
>> how the bill? No.
[2:21:11] » Because the state collected the revenue
from other sources.
[2:21:15] » Now, you might have paid more on your
business enterprise
[2:21:18] tax or broken meals or something, but
but
[2:21:24] » Yeah.
The numbers are very very good. They
[2:21:27] [laughter] the state has deliberately
lowered the revenue it gets and they've
[2:21:31] shifted but there but their law and the
requirements and the functions haven't
[2:21:37] changed. And so whatever that takes to
pay for it now is on the back of the
[2:21:41] property tax
>> and there is an amendment in our
[2:21:45] constitution
that
[2:21:49] forbids the state from doing that.
>> Sure. The Supreme Court
[2:21:55] » has never bought into that because they
say, "Well, you were paying some
[2:22:00] property tax before you. You
participated a little bit in school
[2:22:03] funding, so therefore it's not a new
tax. You're just paying 50% more of it.
[2:22:10] » So, it's a joke, people. It's a joke."
But this is why I say you answer your
[2:22:15] question.
>> What's going to change it? elect people
[2:22:18] to conquer that actually care about the
property tax because right now it's just
[2:22:22] a dumping ground for the state because
they know they can simply say we're not
[2:22:27] going to pay this anymore and you get to
pay it
[2:22:31] » and you have no sales tax,
>> right? That is true. That is true.
[2:22:39] » Yeah, that's a touchy subject.
>> It is.
[2:22:42] » I guess sales and income.
>> Yeah. But I but here I'm not a uh I
[2:22:47] don't like the car shifting, but I also
don't think an income tax is is the
[2:22:50] solution because in every state that's
uh implemented an income tax, it hasn't
[2:22:57] changed the budget. People pay just as
much. They just pay differently,
[2:23:01] » right?
>> Yeah. I have friends down in like
[2:23:03] Boilston, Mass, and they don't pay a lot
less in property tax than me.
[2:23:10] » They pay fairly similar.
And you do pay less, but not by much.
[2:23:17] » And that's the problem with the taxes.
And I think the argument
[2:23:23] for local control,
we got defaulted. When was the last time
[2:23:28] the state got defaulted?
They don't. No, they they actually don't
[2:23:34] need to because they can reduce their
budget and downshift those costs because
[2:23:39] they're the legislature. Remember, the
legisle passed a law, for example, that
[2:23:44] said, "Hey, we're going to share the
Roman meals tax. You're going to get
[2:23:46] $100." And then they said, "Well, I'm
not going to give you the $100." And you
[2:23:52] say, "Well, I know, but the law says
we're going to get $100." They said,
[2:23:56] "Well, guess what? We're going to change
the law." They said, "No, you only get
[2:23:58] $50." So, we've changed the law. We
changed what we're going to give you,
[2:24:02] and you still have to pay the bill. And
they've done that year after year. It's
[2:24:07] amazing. It's amazing. It is like a
house of cards. It's like a slight of
[2:24:11] hand.
They change the laws as to them
[2:24:16] » and they shove the burden down to you
[2:24:22] [laughter]
[2:24:26] » numbers are what they are. Those are
state numbers. I'll send you the article
[2:24:31] to find it again.
[2:24:34] So the ideal is that the state would do
these things without being big brother,
[2:24:42] » right? Well,
>> they would fund them and not be
[2:24:46] » taken away the local control.
>> That's fine. If more people ran after
[2:24:50] House of Senate
>> on a platform of property tax reform
[2:24:55] » and getting the state to pay its way,
you'd see a change. But it would it
[2:25:02] would kind of go back to Mr. Doyle's
argument.
[2:25:06] We would still pay.
>> Well, one way or another, somebody's got
[2:25:10] to pay for government.
>> Yeah, that's a problem.
[2:25:14] » Well, yeah. Only if you want roads,
bridges, healthcare, electricity,
[2:25:18] » and don't forget
>> don't forget
[2:25:21] » you go off the grid.
>> Yeah. Roads, bridges.
[2:25:24] » They've actually been throwing a lot of
money into roads.
[2:25:27] » Yeah. over the last five, 10 years.
>> Here's another thing. The the gas tax,
[2:25:33] right? They had a perfectly well
constructed
[2:25:36] » system of maintaining the state growth
by collecting 25 cents from you,
[2:25:40] » right?
>> Or 50 cents when you go through a toll.
[2:25:43] » But they've never actually implemented
because they're so they don't want to
[2:25:48] raise the toll and so the roads
deteriorate. And so their aid to roads
[2:25:53] and bridges that some of which came down
to local isn't there anymore. So guess
[2:25:58] what? Now you have to pay for those
roads more than you used to. Why?
[2:26:02] Because they had a perfectly good plan
to maintain the state infrastructure,
[2:26:06] but they're too they don't want to fund
it,
[2:26:07] » right?
>> So there you go.
[2:26:12] » Somebody's got to pay for it.
>> They say like a gas tax is what? Like
[2:26:18] » 40 cents.
>> 40 something.
[2:26:19] » 42 cents.
>> Yeah. that goes to
[2:26:24] » and now the electric cars
>> bypass it.
[2:26:27] » No,
>> well they do
[2:26:29] » electric cars actually their
registration is higher than
[2:26:33] » that was explained to us. They did get
the electric car fee to offset the loss
[2:26:38] in revenue of gas tax. But
>> and with an electric car though there is
[2:26:43] I mean I don't have the data but if you
think about it if you're using power
[2:26:50] that's Also, you know, they it's a lot
of well, it's greener,
[2:26:55] » but you still have a power plant or
something generating the power to be a
[2:27:01] And what's that pollution?
>> Something's chugging away.
[2:27:03] » If you add more to it, you
>> used as many ounces of fossil fuel to
[2:27:10] create the batteries and the currents
and everything as as you would if you
[2:27:15] use if you if you burn.
But there is still at least with the
[2:27:21] » the same amount of of wear and tear
um with electric cars that they do as
[2:27:28] gas cars
>> on the road.
[2:27:30] » On the road
>> and I've heard it's more
[2:27:32] » well they're heavier.
>> They're heavier
[2:27:34] » because of batteries. I don't know if it
gives more weight to generally
[2:27:38] » at least with my gas powered truck I
don't have to park it 200 feet away from
[2:27:43] the building because it might
spontaneously combust.
[2:27:49] Yeah. Anyways, that was good. Good. It
was a good meeting with the reps and it
[2:27:54] spawned this discussion really took up
the bulk of it was education funding.
[2:28:00] » Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, all they have to do is pay
[2:28:02] what they used to pay. I'm not even
talking about increasing. Just pay what
[2:28:05] you used to pay
>> because [snorts and clears throat] we're
[2:28:08] used to it back then.
>> Yeah.
[2:28:10] So, I'm anticipating we are going to see
another um petitioned article for strict
[2:28:15] operating budget increase
limitation policy.
[2:28:20] » This one passed last year and when it
passed, I said, "Well, there's a
[2:28:25] referendum to the select one."
>> Which one passed?
[2:28:29] » That was number 21.
>> 21. There's a petition article, but
[2:28:33] » it didn't follow the correct
format because the state sets up these
[2:28:39] things that we hear about so often
called RSAs and the procedure wasn't
[2:28:45] followed by this petitioner. And so our
attorney said it's actually not
[2:28:49] enforceable.
>> Oh.
[2:28:51] » Because
there was supposed to be another part of
[2:28:56] it before this was submitted.
[2:29:01] However, the point got across and I
think it'll be back and perhaps it'll be
[2:29:06] back
done in the correct policy.
[2:29:11] I mean procedure. Sorry.
>> The problem with the CPI is it doesn't
[2:29:16] really track what you're what government
does.
[2:29:20] » Yeah.
>> You know, nobody's
[2:29:22] » it's a starting point is all it was. And
I think they took that verbiage from the
[2:29:26] state.
>> They might have. thinks so if I recall,
[2:29:32] » but that the CPI has no connection to
the price of a fire engine or an
[2:29:36] ambulance or health insurance.
>> No,
[2:29:38] » you know, nobody's health insurance went
up 3%.
[2:29:42] » Right. Right. Right. So, and most of
what this budget is is labor. Labor and
[2:29:50] heavy equipment.
>> There's a few pens on the side, but it's
[2:29:54] and none of that aligns with the CPI,
>> right?
[2:30:01] I expected to be back. Um, article 22.
>> Well, we're looking I'm sorry. We're
[2:30:08] looking at replacing the um the tobacco,
right?
[2:30:17] Because the um
[2:30:25] » I don't think it's on.
>> Fill me in. I haven't heard anything
[2:30:28] yet?
>> No. Peter had mentioned years ago that
[2:30:31] his long-term goal would be to get a
wheeled excavator and sell the backos
[2:30:36] because the backos are
>> harder to Yeah. They're no good for
[2:30:40] ditching. And I mean, they have some
purpose, but
[2:30:44] » the wheeled excavator would be a much
better
[2:30:47] » Yeah, the lease. The lease is coming due
>> or
[2:30:53] on the on the
>> Yeah, that's the loader. That's the only
[2:30:56] equipment we've leased.
>> Okay.
[2:30:58] » That is coming to be curious to see how
it closes out because you are told what
[2:31:03] you're told and then you see what you
see. And I hope it'll be what we were
[2:31:08] told.
>> We'll see. [laughter]
[2:31:12] » The last one I I just want to talk about
uh article 22. [clears throat]
[2:31:17] [snorts]
The town
[2:31:23] used to have it as a selectman's
um submitted article similar to
[2:31:31] all the way up to article 16.
It was the selectman who would bring
[2:31:37] this to the voters. Do you want to make
donations to people right
[2:31:41] » to organizations?
Um few years back I brought up the point
[2:31:46] that a lot of these things it just they
were politically there is a political
[2:31:52] firestorm. Do you recall that in 2021?
>> I've been through it but
[2:31:57] » I'm saying different communities
>> this ideological thing of
[2:32:00] » oh sure
>> all this
[2:32:02] » all these businesses going political and
pushing different agendas.
[2:32:08] um it still goes on to a little bit
lesser degree right now, but it does
[2:32:12] still go on. And so I
I looked at that article and I said,
[2:32:16] "Three of these things are pushing
agendas that are opposite of what I
[2:32:22] believe in. And if this thing passes,
I my town is forcing me
[2:32:31] to fund
something that I'm
[2:32:37] morally opposed to.
Now, to me, that was like, okay, wait a
[2:32:42] minute. So, I back up and I look, okay,
so maybe I like this one here,
[2:32:49] but my neighbor hates him or my neighbor
has a moral objection to it.
[2:32:56] And I thought, what is the town doing
raising taking money from the taxpayers?
[2:33:03] This would be the selectman at that
time. the selectman would say, "Yeah,
[2:33:08] we're going to take money from you guys
and we're going to give it to this
[2:33:11] person and that one and that one and
this one, but we're not going to give to
[2:33:15] that one." I said, "It just seems like
that's not a
[2:33:20] » but that was the people's choice,
>> but it's not a proper use of public
[2:33:26] funds in
>> it's not a public fund in my opinion. It
[2:33:30] is a a person's choice.
>> Only the people who voted yes
[2:33:36] That was their choice. The people who
voted no
[2:33:40] » are being conscripted by the government
to support a charity.
[2:33:45] » How do you know that they're
conscripted?
[2:33:47] » Because if I don't pay my property
taxes,
[2:33:51] this board will send the sheriffs over
there to boot me out and they'll take my
[2:33:57] land away.
And this is raised by
[2:34:02] property taxes.
So here the list is um that I was
[2:34:10] constrained last year. I was forced to
support one, two, three, four, five, 6,
[2:34:17] 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 charities who are
nonprofits.
[2:34:24] Um,
>> what was the point? What's the point of
[2:34:30] that? It seems to be a New Hampshire
somewhat some towns do it, some don't.
[2:34:36] Like it all I can think of is this is a
way maybe somebody said I am voting no
[2:34:45] on everything, but this is a way they
can say but I'm going to give to
[2:34:49] charity. Well, you're not giving to
charity. You're forcing me to give to
[2:34:53] charity if I want to give to charity.
And you look at some of these numbers
[2:34:57] » an individual. You look at some of these
numbers. They're small numbers. And when
[2:35:01] I when I first brought this up at a
deliberative session, it was never met
[2:35:07] with warmness. People I feel like it's
something that makes people feel good.
[2:35:15] At least, hey, all the, you know, the
complaints they'll have about what the
[2:35:20] town does with the money, but at least I
know this is going to a good cause.
[2:35:24] Well, give it yourself.
120 bucks the town's going to get
[2:35:29] » to this one organization here.
>> Well, a lot a lot of times because I'
[2:35:34] I've been through this for decades
obviously in different settings.
[2:35:37] Sometimes these are petition warrant
articles individually, [snorts]
[2:35:41] » but even still the 15 or 20 people that
send a petition warrant article get to
[2:35:46] submit it in front of the all the voters
and some will vote it up and some will
[2:35:50] vote it down. A lot of times these
numbers are driven by like home
[2:35:54] healthcare.
They come into town and they don't
[2:35:59] decline to provide care for any new
resident uh for want of pay for for want
[2:36:07] of reimbursement and typically they'll
come to the budget committee or the
[2:36:12] fiscal committee or you guys and say you
know we took care of 230 people in town
[2:36:17] » and this is this is how much it costs us
uh because there's not adequate
[2:36:22] reimbursement. [snorts]
So they ask for donations to offset the
[2:36:26] cost of taking care of US citizens.
Yeah.
[2:36:28] » So every agency um they [clears throat]
don't like to make up these numbers
[2:36:33] typically at least in my experience
>> you say where did that number come from?
[2:36:37] How many how many new residents uh
had to get services from Center for
[2:36:45] Violence Prevention or how many people
in town needed meals on wheels and um
[2:36:51] and or 100 night shelter. How many
homeless people came from New Ipsswitch
[2:36:55] and on and on and on. And so you get to
make a decision about
[2:37:02] uh how you take care of your citizens
>> and and you could do your you could just
[2:37:08] take that money and put in the welfare
budget and you could and you could pay
[2:37:13] home healthcare directly. But but that's
the concept and and either the board
[2:37:20] recommends the outside agencies
whose money is used to take care of your
[2:37:25] citizens
or they do a petition war article where
[2:37:29] 15 of your people's citizens say, "Hey,
I want to fund home healthcare." Either
[2:37:34] way, it's going to end up on the ballot.
Um
[2:37:37] so
>> possibly. So we didn't have it on the
[2:37:40] ballot for two years.
>> Okay. You didn't find any outside
[2:37:44] agencies? But the people,
>> a number of people came up last year and
[2:37:50] said that they wanted it back on there.
>> Yeah.
[2:37:54] » Oh, yeah. that's happened
>> because we have citizens in town who are
[2:37:57] poor and they need services
>> and they get it
[2:37:59] » and they're going to get it because
statutoily, you know, you can do it
[2:38:03] through your welfare budget.
>> No, but can do it through these agencies
[2:38:06] and maybe so if you take if you take
>> um 100 night shelter on this one, $500.
[2:38:15] » Okay,
>> that wouldn't even be one month's rent.
[2:38:19] » No, but you could probably stay at the
shelter for 60 days.
[2:38:24] for that amount of money
>> would. So are these are you telling me
[2:38:28] that these charities will no longer
provide services for the town people in
[2:38:33] this town if the town
>> if the town doesn't give $120 a year?
[2:38:38] » No, they will.
>> And this is my point. And if and if
[2:38:41] somebody
who's going to pay who's going to pay
[2:38:44] for the bricks these
these here are nonprofits.
[2:38:49] » Well, that doesn't mean they don't have
expenses and they don't need revenue.
[2:38:51] » Understood. Who do you think pays for
nonprofit organizations?
[2:38:56] I hope it's not governments because now
you're just a branch of you're like a
[2:39:01] you're not an NGO anymore. You're just a
branch of the government.
[2:39:06] » There may not be the people of this, but
there are other towns that are willing
[2:39:10] to
>> Oh, absolutely.
[2:39:12] [cough and clears throat] No such tax
voted for this $10,000
[2:39:18] a little bit more than my house. You
could say the voters said all of my
[2:39:24] taxes will go towards
donating to these charities. Now, if I
[2:39:30] like a charity, I don't ask you
to pay for that. [clears throat]
[2:39:36] » And most of these charities, they run
off of people's generosity.
[2:39:42] » He didn't. And so,
>> which is why they're asking for the
[2:39:45] money.
>> But, but what's happening here? Well,
[2:39:49] wait a minute. You did not have to to
accept any one of those.
[2:39:54] » What do you mean?
>> Just because they're on there, you could
[2:39:58] have just said, "I'm not I don't want to
pay."
[2:40:01] » How?
>> Well,
[2:40:03] » I have no choice.
>> My neighbors
[2:40:06] » once it's in the budget.
>> Once it's there, it's there. And and
[2:40:10] what happened last year was my neighbors
told me,
[2:40:15] "Regardless of what you think about
these charities, you are paying it.
[2:40:20] You're paying it this year."
>> That's true.
[2:40:22] » No matter what you think one of these
charities,
[2:40:24] » this comes back to your quasi Christian
roots about who's going to care for the
[2:40:29] poor.
>> There's a church in here.
[2:40:33] » Yeah. St. Paul, that's one of them.
>> They get they get more than everybody.
[2:40:38] Maybe they do more than anybody.
>> I don't know. I mean, but you know,
[2:40:42] honestly, that's part of the dialogue
that you have with them. They come and
[2:40:45] they say, I want X. Well,
>> we just have two things. A, the money
[2:40:51] can only be spent on on the Wford
citizens. And B, I want to see the
[2:40:54] numbers. How many people did showed up?
What what services did you provide? How
[2:40:59] long did they stay? Whatever it is. And
then you get to validate. Well, if I had
[2:41:05] to have my welfare director pay the oil
bill or something else, then I'm still
[2:41:11] paying it. But so those are all kind of
community care decisions.
[2:41:16] » Yeah. because you're always going to
have the poor and somebody's going to
[2:41:19] have to be taking care of them and
somebody's going to have to be paying
[2:41:22] for these agencies to operate
>> and and it has generally
[2:41:28] they don't survive off of NOIPS which is
$120 annual donation they survive. So,
[2:41:36] [clears throat] if I like a charity, I
may give I don't know
[2:41:41] maybe 600,000
dollars a year
[2:41:45] » because I want them to continue what
they're doing. And I said that at the
[2:41:49] deliberative. I take it uh
courtappointed special advocates. That
[2:41:53] one brought some fire. Um my wife and I
went through that and we understand what
[2:41:58] they do.
>> Okay. My wife is, she took on several
[2:42:04] cases for Cassa. We give them $500 a
year.
[2:42:09] » Okay.
>> And I said, "Why?
[2:42:13] » We the
>> town in this one in this particular
[2:42:16] one."
>> And I said, "You know, we're and someone
[2:42:20] said, you know, you're being a Scrooge.
You're just so concerned about No, it's
[2:42:25] not about money
being involved. But I understand there's
[2:42:29] people who don't appreciate something
that happened
[2:42:36] with Cassa. That was something I looked
up when I was in there are people who
[2:42:42] [clears throat] are very unhappy.
>> Not not every story anywhere turns out
[2:42:45] well.
>> Exactly. Exactly point. I'm not saying
[2:42:48] it's justified.
>> I'm not saying it's a justified or a
[2:42:51] reasonable objection. It just is. It's
reality with people.
[2:42:55] » Um and I told the the woman who was
really angry at me for bringing it up.
[2:43:01] If you pass the hat around with the
speech you just made, you would easily
[2:43:05] get more than $500.
So why are we forcing everybody?
[2:43:12] It's just not right. And I I I
looked through
[2:43:17] historically and I found one
prominent politician who said who had a
[2:43:23] speech on it and said absolutely
unethical for the government
[2:43:30] to use public money
um in support of
[2:43:35] a charity. That was Davy Crockett.
So that was the only one I saw. There
[2:43:43] was if you if you look back into the um
founding fathers, you'll see
[2:43:49] » none of them were
supportive of that idea.
[2:43:54] » Yeah, there was something
>> but but you know, every single dollar in
[2:43:58] this budget
>> goes to take care of the citizens of the
[2:44:03] town.
>> Yep. one way or another, whether they're
[2:44:05] poor, whether they're sick, whether
they're getting beaten up, whether they
[2:44:10] have an accident, whether they have a
cardiac arrest, whether they need to get
[2:44:15] out of their home in the middle of a
snowstorm. I mean, everything goes to
[2:44:19] care for New Hood citizens. What makes
these any different? What makes them
[2:44:26] different is they're organizations that
are outside of our
[2:44:32] » taking care of the citizens.
>> Suppose suppose you didn't want to plow
[2:44:36] the roads and and and people couldn't
get out of their home. Why why is it
[2:44:40] your responsibility to plow their road?
>> This is that's a part of the operation
[2:44:44] of the town. This here is a donation to
a charity of your choice. Now, I said,
[2:44:50] "Hey, how about if I convince the
selectman, and I, this was in just a
[2:44:55] conversation with someone, and I named
off some really overtly political, very
[2:45:02] clearly
on this side of the whatever you want to
[2:45:06] call it, um, ideological
war that our culture is in. How about we
[2:45:12] just give a list of them,
[2:45:17] » right?"
>> Yeah.
[2:45:19] No, we don't want I I I'll limit it to
the ones that have actually done work in
[2:45:24] our town.
>> No,
[2:45:26] » all of these have
>> Right. I'm saying my list I'll limit it
[2:45:30] to that.
>> And the answer is still no.
[2:45:34] These have I don't know. I haven't
looked at them recently, but when I
[2:45:38] first brought it up, that's what they
were. Not all of them. There was three
[2:45:43] of them. and I brought it out at the
deliberative session and the moderator
[2:45:47] put me right on the spot and he said
would you like to make an amendment
[2:45:51] » and you said
>> and I said yes
[2:45:53] » okay
>> I would like to strike these three
[2:45:56] » okay
>> and that's when that's when I felt uh
[2:46:01] » the dem the the the thrust of democracy
over
[2:46:04] » yes
so we had a very
[2:46:08] » I think I think it was a very civil
discussion but it was basically me with
[2:46:14] » the audience [clears throat]
resoundingly rejected.
[2:46:17] » No, not resoundingly.
>> Okay.
[2:46:20] » Yeah. And it he actually called for a
standing vote. The moderator did.
[2:46:24] » Okay.
>> Yeah. But they also stood with me for
[2:46:27] putting those back on. [clears throat]
>> Right. And my whole point is
[2:46:34] get to the bottom of it. It's at the
barrel of a gun. You will donate to this
[2:46:39] charity. Now, if that charity becomes a
part of our welfare office, then
[2:46:46] whatever. I mean, that's we're stuck
with.
[2:46:48] » Okay.
>> I I sign off on checks that the welfare
[2:46:52] department writes. And I understand that
I have no choice.
[2:46:56] And who that check goes to has been
arranged by the welfare officer in
[2:47:00] helping out whatever individual needed
it. But the principle of this is what
[2:47:07] gets me.
And yeah,
[2:47:10] » at the county, we've we've been funding
some of these people literally for 40
[2:47:14] years.
>> Um, but we've also have
[2:47:20] said no more outside agencies. We're
funding enough. So,
[2:47:24] » yeah,
>> we're not adding new people to the list,
[2:47:26] just just some of the legacy ones.
>> And then last year, guess what? They
[2:47:31] added a new one.
>> The [clears throat] government would
[2:47:33] never do that.
>> Really? Not everybody. government would
[2:47:38] never say one thing and do another.
>> There's other times where I've looked at
[2:47:42] the balance sheet of some of these
nonprofits. I said, you know, they're
[2:47:45] sitting on $2.5 million. They don't need
our money,
[2:47:48] » but they still get it.
>> But they're helping
[2:47:51] » because it's helping state.
>> Yeah, I know. This is why I say let's
[2:47:56] and we did. We didn't fund these things
for a couple years. and our town
[2:48:01] administrator was not pleased with the
board of selecting because she fielded
[2:48:07] the calls.
>> Oh,
[2:48:09] » what kind of a Scrooge town you
>> at the end of the day, the town
[2:48:12] administrator's job is to carry out the
majority vote to the board.
[2:48:15] » Yeah. And I like what you said there at
the deliberative session and that has
[2:48:20] been a really
good educational thing for me is
[2:48:26] it them deliberative sessions and March
vote really strongly illustrate why
[2:48:35] these people here were deathly afraid of
a true democracy.
[2:48:41] Because it's mob rule. You come to the
deliberative session, you get enough of
[2:48:46] your friends, you own the town.
It's crazy
[2:48:50] » for sure.
>> Yeah, it is wild.
[2:48:53] » That's why
they didn't really form a democracy.
[2:48:58] » They formed a republic.
>> Yep. Exactly. And it was because of
[2:49:02] that. And we get to witness it firsthand
here.
[2:49:06] » Um,
you know, with like the warrant,
[2:49:11] » it was
And and the the reason they were not
[2:49:16] they were afraid of a true democracy
and mob rule is because
[2:49:23] we see emotions
can be stirred up and they they
[2:49:30] experience it there.
>> Yeah. I mean all the tar and feathering
[2:49:34] and stuff a lot of these the founding
fathers they weren't in favor of it but
[2:49:38] that's what happens. people's emotions
get stoked up
[2:49:42] » and watch out. Yeah. So, that's been a
really
[2:49:48] » Well, we don't have as many refs beating
each other over the head with canes like
[2:49:52] we did 200 years ago
>> or duels.
[2:49:54] » DS. Yeah. We're a little more
>> Oh, feed them to the line. I
[2:49:57] » I would not say that we're more
civilized.
[2:50:00] » I would say some of the customs may have
changed.
[2:50:03] » That way you know where it's going.
[clears throat]
[2:50:06] » You do. [laughter]
They do that in Europe. I see them
[2:50:09] brawling over there. Have you seen them?
>> British house.
[2:50:14] » Yeah, they'll start.
>> There's a boot to watch.
[2:50:17] » I don't know. They're a little little up
to on civil, but I will not take up any
[2:50:22] more time. That was my last thought on
the warrant and I'll ask one last call.
[2:50:26] » I had this is about the fourth time, if
not more.
[2:50:30] » What
>> that I've listened to to this whole
[2:50:32] » Yeah. Yeah. And you still disagree. You
you enjoy the fact that I have a gun
[2:50:38] pointed to my head telling me to donate
to these charities.
[2:50:41] » Yeah, but they have
>> you say
[2:50:44] for me for 35 years. It's just
>> Ron said, "Please, can you wind it up
[2:50:50] already?" You're talking in circles. If
anyone has anything