[0:00] To the flag of the United States of
America and to the republic for which it
[0:04] stands. One nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice
[0:10] for all.
[0:14] » Okay. Before we get started, I'd like to
announce that after our work session
[0:18] last week, council met in executive sk
session to discuss ongoing litigation.
[0:23] I would also like to welcome members of
Troop Scout 29 who are here with us
[0:28] tonight to observe their local
government uh to get their citizenship
[0:31] in the community merit badge. Welcome.
>> Okay, moving on to public to be heard.
[0:37] Does anyone have any uh public to be
heard for items not listed on tonight's
[0:41] agenda?
[0:46] » Please enter the conference pin number.
>> Sorry, we have someone joining us
[0:50] remotely.
[0:54] That pin is invalid for this conference.
Please enter the conference pin number.
[1:05] » That pin is invalid for this conference.
Please enter the conference pin.
[1:10] » Judy, can you go see if there's anything
we can do to at least turn the volume
[1:14] down a little bit so we can keep going?
Thank you.
[1:18] Um, so I see no public to be heard for
items not on the agenda.
[1:23] Okay. Then before we move on to our
presentations, I'd just like to ask, is
[1:27] there anyone here um on behalf of their
certificate of appropriateness being
[1:32] heard tonight?
[1:36] Okay. Well, then I was going to move
those forward if we had someone uh here
[1:40] present, but since we don't, we'll move
on and we'll start with the EAC Bowman's
[1:44] Hill plant grant presentation.
[2:00] I think by way of introduction this is
the reason for this presentation or are
[2:03] you going to be saying that some
>> you can
[2:06] » you'll let me do it. Okay. Um, okay. The
New Town received a grant from um
[2:12] Bowman's um Hill Wildflower uh
um for planting native plants in three
[2:20] locations in the burrow, one being
Patriots Park, one being the New Town
[2:26] Common Park, and the other being um
along a drainage swale off of Chancellor
[2:31] Street. The two parks have signs in them
that have educational information in
[2:36] them regarding native plants, but the
swale does not have that and we are
[2:42] required to have an educational
component to receive this grant and
[2:46] summer u bound from the uh EAC has
kindly offered to make that presentation
[2:51] to us.
>> All right. Well, good evening. My name
[2:56] is Summer and I'm a member of the
environmental advisory council here in
[3:00] New Town Burough. Um, as Julia said, I'm
here to, uh, present the educational
[3:05] component of the Bowman's Hill
Wildflower Preserve Grant that was
[3:07] awarded to the burrow last fall.
Uh, this presentation will focus on New
[3:13] Town Burrow's beloved storm water
discharge system named Old Skunky. We
[3:18] will go over fun information about Old
Skunky, Old Skunky's role in storm water
[3:23] management, and how native plants are
helping to maintain New Town Burough's
[3:27] storm water systems. What we won't talk
about is how Old Skunky got its name.
[3:32] I'll leave that for interpretation.
[3:37] Before we get into the thick of Old
Skunky's history, here's a map of where
[3:41] Old Skunkkey flows through the burrow.
It starts at the northeast corner of
[3:45] Washington Avenue and flows southwest
towards South Street or South State
[3:50] Street and eventually discharges into
the New Town Creek.
[3:57] Now, here's some history about ye old
skunky.
[4:00] Old skunky was originally considered a
tributary of the New Town Creek. A
[4:05] tributary is a stream or river that
flows into a larger river or body of
[4:09] water. Now, a fun fact, New Town Creek
is a tributary of the Namin Creek, which
[4:15] flows into the Delaware River drainage
basin. The Delaware River Basin provides
[4:19] fresh drinking water to over 15 million
people spanning four states and includes
[4:24] major cities like Philadelphia and New
York City.
[4:28] Old Skunky is one of two surface water
resources in the burrow and is
[4:31] considered an open storm water sewer
system. So for reference, the EPA
[4:37] defines storm water as rainwater or
melted snow that runs off streets,
[4:42] lawns, and other sites. When storm water
is absorbed into soil, it is filtered
[4:47] and ultimately replenishes aquafers or
flows into streams and rivers.
[4:52] Storm water runoff has also been
identified as a number one cause of
[4:56] pollution to rivers and streams, which
is the source of our drinking water. As
[5:01] New Town became more developed, Old
Skunky's channel was diverted. There is
[5:06] a section of Old Skunky between
Chancellor Street and Lincoln A where
[5:10] the stream was enclosed. The enclosure
causes the intersection of Penn and
[5:14] Chancellor Streets to flood due to its
incapacity to handle excess storm water.
[5:20] More development in the burrow meant
more issues for our dear old Skunky. You
[5:24] might even say Skunky was having a
stinky time.
[5:28] In the 1960s, when Washington Village
was being developed, stormwater
[5:32] management was not typically a
consideration in cons in construction
[5:36] planning. More development means more
impervious pave surfaces. This was bad
[5:41] news for Old Skunky. Since there was no
storm water management plan, poor old
[5:46] Skunky experienced more runoff,
flooding, and erosion. The flooding was
[5:51] so severe that eventually the burrow had
to replace the inlets and piping under
[5:54] South State Street.
[5:58] Excessive runoff from flooding and waste
disposal may give you a hint to what
[6:01] earned Old Skunky its endearing name,
but that's just a guess. After decades
[6:07] of what old skunky may have called the
H2O no years, restoration projects were
[6:12] underway. For example, the retention
basin at New Town Station alleviates
[6:18] some of Old Skunky's water load. The
basin can carry approximately 600,000
[6:23] gallons of water. That's about 5 million
pounds.
[6:28] Recent projects have studied New Town
Burough storm water management and the
[6:31] importance of Old Skunky's role. These
projects have helped with slope
[6:36] regrading, bank stabilization, and the
installment of native plants.
[6:41] For a burrow with a population of about
2,300 people, Old Skunky is a vital
[6:46] system for storm water management. It is
responsible for 23 of the burough storm
[6:51] water discharge.
Despite its wary and sometimes stinky
[6:55] past, Old Skunky continues to flow.
[7:00] So, now that you know about Old Skunky,
let's learn about Old Skunky's swale.
[7:06] Old Skunky's swale is a vegetative area
where Old Skunky runs through Chancellor
[7:10] Street. The swale is about 300 ft long
and 20 to 30 feet wide. A swale is
[7:16] simply defined as a lowlying space or
depression between ridges. If you make a
[7:22] fist and look at the indented space
between your knuckles, that is what a
[7:26] swell looks like. A swell's main purpose
is to collect and manage storm water.
[7:32] Storm water can be thought of as water
looking for a safe place to go. When it
[7:35] doesn't have when it doesn't have
somewhere to go, it causes flooding.
[7:39] During its search, storm water picks up
pollutants along the way. A swale
[7:44] provides storm water a place to flow
into and to gradually seep into the
[7:48] ground. This is how a swale slows the
storm water's infiltration rate.
[7:53] Infiltration rate is a measure of how
fast water enters soil. As the storm
[7:58] water seeps into the ground, the soil
also filters a storm water of its
[8:02] pollutants. So instead of the storm
water flooding and polluting the New
[8:07] Town Creek, Old Skunky Swale offers
storm water a chance to collect, slow
[8:11] down, get filter through the soil, and
infiltrate our water table.
[8:20] Swells can also be a hospitable
landscape for diverse ecosystems.
[8:24] A soil with native plants creates
habitat and food for animals and
[8:27] pollinators, which in turn benefits our
community as a whole. The generous grant
[8:33] from Bowman Hill Wildflower Preserve has
given us the opportunity to add
[8:36] additional native plants to the swale's
embankment areas.
[8:42] So, here's some pictures of the swale
during the drought last summer. A cool
[8:46] thing about swailes is that they have an
amazing ability to retain moisture,
[8:50] especially with the help of native
plants and their root systems. You can
[8:54] see the vegetation around the soil is
still pretty green despite how dry it
[8:57] was.
[9:02] Old skunky and it swale playing an
essential row role in the burrow's MS4
[9:07] program. MS4 stands for municipal
separate storm sewer system. You can try
[9:13] saying that 10 times fast.
As defined by the PA,
[9:18] MS4s are conveyances or systems of
conveyances, including roads with
[9:22] drainage systems, municipal streets,
catch basins, curbs, gutters, ditches,
[9:29] man-made channels, or storm drains that
are owned or operated by a public
[9:34] entity. They are designed or used for
collecting or conveying storm water and
[9:39] are not a combined sewer or part of a
publicly owned treatment works. MS4 is a
[9:44] required program/permit that is
regulated by the DP, the Department of
[9:49] Environmental Protection.
MS4 program's main goal is to regulate
[9:54] storm water, how it is discharged, and
the associated pollutants.
[9:59] Every MS4 permittee establishes a storm
water management program. The program
[10:04] addresses the impacts of stormwater
runoff and solution plans.
[10:09] The S SWMP requires a focus on six
minimum control measures. Some of these
[10:14] include construction site runoff
control, pollution prevention,
[10:18] education, and outreach amongst others.
[10:26] Now, after all this talk about Old
Skunky and storm water management, what
[10:30] is storm water management? How do native
plants help with storm water management?
[10:35] Well, I'm so glad you all asked. By
definition, storm water management is
[10:40] the use of practices to reduce, detain,
slow down, or remove pollutants from
[10:46] surface water runoff and can be used to
restore natural processes previously
[10:51] provided by nature. Old skunky and its
swale have the ability to do all these
[10:55] things, especially with the help from
native plants.
[11:00] So, what are native plants? Native
plants are defined as a species that
[11:04] occurs naturally in a given location
either because it evolved there or
[11:09] dispersed to that location without
benefit of human activity.
[11:14] Native plants have a plethora of
benefits for the environment, animals
[11:17] and humans. So next we will see how
native plants contribute to storm water
[11:22] management, erosion control and
biodiversity.
[11:29] Native plants have remarkable abilities
to fix many man-made problems. To quote
[11:35] the infamous Io Wilson, "There can be no
purpose more inspiring than to begin the
[11:40] age of restoration, reweaving the
wondrous diversity of life that still
[11:45] surrounds us."
End quote. As opposed to non-native or
[11:50] exotic exotic plants, native plants have
an extensive root system that can hold
[11:55] on to soil. Their roots prevent erosion,
increase storm water retention, and
[12:01] slows down the infiltration rate of
groundwater while filtering out
[12:04] pollutants.
Native plants provide necessities like
[12:07] food and habitat for local fauna and
flora. This is also how native plants
[12:12] increase biodiversity.
For example, echynasia, the common name
[12:17] is cone flower, feeds our pollinators
and animals with its nectar and seeds.
[12:22] When the seasons change, burrowing bees
will overwinter in the woody stems.
[12:27] Echanasia also has medicinal properties
for humans as a remedy for colds and
[12:32] immune support. As an extra bonus,
native plants minimize maintenance
[12:37] costs. They require less mowing, less
watering, and no chemical or fertilizer
[12:42] applications.
Sounds like a pretty good deal.
[12:47] So, this is a list of the plants that we
planted uh around the soil at Old Skunky
[12:52] from Bowman's Hill.
Here are some of the plants being
[12:57] installed. They don't look like much in
these photos, but once they're
[13:02] established, they will fill out nicely.
So to wrap up this presentation, I'd
[13:07] like to showcase a couple of the native
plants we received from Bowman Hill
[13:10] Wildflower Preserve.
This one's called Clethral on a also
[13:15] known as summer sweet or sweet pepper
bush. It has fragrant and very
[13:19] attractive flowers. Excellent food
source for pollinators and it's also
[13:23] deer resistant. It tolerates wet
landscapes and does well in sandy soils.
[13:29] In fact, it's often used for erosion
control along bodies of water. The next
[13:33] time you go down the shore, notice how
erosion has affected the shoreline. You
[13:38] might notice that these areas with dunes
and plants are much more stable than
[13:42] those without. So for those of you with
shore houses and experiencing the
[13:46] effects of erosion, this native is a
great plant to keep in mind.
[13:52] This is picntheum, also known as
mountain mint. Oh, the picture didn't
[13:57] show up. Well, it's not an aggressive
spreader like other mints you might find
[14:02] at a garden center. It's fragrant and
can act as a natural repellent for
[14:05] mosquitoes and ticks. It's also deer and
rabbit resistant. It enjoys moist areas,
[14:10] so it's a great plant choice for old
skunky. Is also fairly drought tolerant.
[14:16] It's a wonderful food source for
pollinators. If you plant this, your
[14:20] yard will also be humming with
honeybees, hummingbirds, and
[14:23] butterflies. The leaves have culinary
uses as a seasoning or a tea to treat
[14:28] colds, help with anxiety, insomnia,
tummy aches, and so many other ailments.
[14:34] Because it's a native plant, it doesn't
require fertilizer or pesticides, so it
[14:39] also reduces landscaping costs and will
save you money.
[14:45] There's the picture. There we are.
Uh on behalf of the New Town Bureau and
[14:50] the EAC, I'd like to extend a ginormous
thank you to Bowman's Hill Wildflower
[14:55] Preserve for awarding us this grant uh
making our community a more
[14:59] environmentally sound and wonderful
place to live. I thank you all for
[15:03] listening and being here today. I hope
you enjoyed this presentation and maybe
[15:07] learned something. If you're feeling
inspired, reach out to your local
[15:11] environmental advisory council or
township about how you can get involved
[15:15] in projects that make a difference.
Because without a thriving environment,
[15:19] where would we be? Uh, you can stay
tuned to New Town Burrow's new
[15:23] newsletters and the environmental
advisory council's new web page for more
[15:27] updates about upcoming projects. And uh,
I thank you.
[15:55] are currently the only person in this
conference.
[16:07] So now we'll move on to our next
presentation which is about the Liberty
[16:11] Center development proposal.
Are you all using the technology as
[16:16] well? Okay, great.
>> I'm not, but we are.
[16:19] » Okay. [laughter]
>> Uh, I'm Ed Murphy. Um, I'm here tonight
[16:24] with Jim Worthington and a host of other
project consultants to
[16:30] uh discuss
about the Liberty Development proposal.
[16:49] Please continue. Sorry.
>> Okay. Um, I'm here tonight with Jim
[16:55] Worththington and uh multiple of the
project consultants to discuss a project
[17:00] that has probably been one of the most
discussed publicly um in the history of
[17:07] the burrow. It used to be known for many
years as the steeple view project that
[17:13] went on seemingly for almost a
generation and resulted in various
[17:16] levels of approval.
Uh Jim Worthington purchased the
[17:22] property almost 14 months ago in uh
early 2025
[17:28] and uh we had our first informal
workshop session with um a handful of
[17:36] burough administration staff and several
council people last mid July when we
[17:43] made everyone aware of Jim's acquisition
and also some tenative plans he had for
[17:49] how he would uh look to modify the
previously approved plan. Uh we spent
[17:55] the balance of the summer and early fall
um doing um due diligence on the plan
[18:03] various uh reached out to some u local
stakeholders to get their sense of it.
[18:10] And then we met for the first time in
early November last year with your
[18:15] planning commission and we presented at
that time a a sketch plan. Uh we did
[18:21] have the benefit of a review
uh from Michelle Fountain's office when
[18:27] we did have that first meeting. And much
like the first staff meeting in mid July
[18:32] where we got a fair amount of feedback
of issues to be uh thinking about as we
[18:37] embarked on any revision to the plan. We
had that same kind of feedback from your
[18:43] planning commission last November 3rd
and we've since that meeting have
[18:48] followed up again with um different um
groups stakeholders if you will within
[18:56] the burrow. Uh Jim's had a number of
listening sessions which I'm sure you're
[19:00] familiar with because some of you
attended those and uh more recently we
[19:06] made u a more formal submission of the
revised sketch plan and a companion
[19:14] uh overlay ordinance that we call the
green rate greenway redevelopment
[19:19] ordinance or the grow ordinance. that
would be a vehicle that would allow the
[19:24] plan that we're going to present to you
tonight if everybody thinks it makes
[19:28] sense uh to move forward. So, uh, this
opportunity tonight is to allow Jim
[19:34] briefly and then the project architects
and then, um, the project planner to
[19:42] talk about the design elements that
we've incorporated into the plans since
[19:46] some of you saw it last July and
hopefully the uh, benefit of that we see
[19:52] in considering this amendment as opposed
to relying on the prior most recent
[19:57] amended final approval for the steeple
view project. So, uh, with that as
[20:02] background, Jim wants to make only a
very brief commentary and then we'll
[20:07] turn it over to the project architects
who will have a more visual presentation
[20:11] of uh, the work product we've developed
since last July.
[20:27] My name is Jim Worthington and thanks
[clears throat] for having us tonight. I
[20:30] just want to give you a little brief
history. Uh very brief. Um two years uh
[20:36] prior to purchasing the uh project from
Allan Smith, who I admire dearly. I
[20:40] think he's done tremendous things for
the burrow and the township. uh myself
[20:45] and a friend of mine spent uh
virtually dozens of meetings with Allen
[20:51] trying to get familiar with the project
and I was very excited about it in terms
[20:55] of because he's he's a visionary and he
does really good things. Um during that
[20:59] two-year project, we also were talking
to different stakeholders, residents
[21:04] around the site, which was then Steeple
View, uh business owners on State Street
[21:10] and surrounding areas. And we found out
that the what Allen's vision was did not
[21:16] coincide with what the folks around
there thought. And I came in with very
[21:22] excited about, hey, I'm going to buy
this plane. I'm going to just do it. But
[21:26] that wasn't the feeling. and sense we
got from the people there, they were
[21:30] concerned about a number of things uh
that that that I wasn't aware of. And
[21:35] then after I purchased it in January of
uh of that year, uh we dug further into
[21:42] it with my experts and people that were
working on my project to find out that
[21:47] all the fears of the people that were um
not thrilled with the the plan and were
[21:53] looking for something different came
true. So, for instance, the plan that
[21:58] Allen had uh versus the plan we have had
1,700 more cars per week per week than
[22:07] our plan that we developed, which is
85,000 cars more a year. That was a
[22:11] problem. People were concerned about
traffic. That's what we were repeatedly
[22:15] told. People were concerned about
off-site parking that was in Allen's
[22:19] plan down at the stocking works saying,
you know, this doesn't make sense
[22:24] because people aren't going to go down
there and park. We realized that was
[22:28] true, too. So, we came up with a plan
that basically park right on site.
[22:34] People were concerned about the fact
that there was going to be limited
[22:38] public parking. We provided much more
public parking in our new plan. Um there
[22:45] was a a plaza space that was uh very
much needed and wanted. It was something
[22:51] that the burrow I think insisted upon.
We saw that uh plaza space which was
[22:58] nice but it was 5,000 square feet. We
said hey there's room to do much better.
[23:03] We made it 15,000 square feet. We
tripled the size of it. Every place we
[23:10] looked at where we could improve Allen's
plan. We did. Um, and the biggest thing
[23:16] was the business community was
definitely afraid of more competition.
[23:20] They didn't want another restaurant.
They wanted no more coffee shops. They
[23:24] said it's hard enough to to now
business-wise to compete. And here we
[23:28] are going to bring in more people, which
is going to cause more traffic and
[23:32] decimate the people there. What they
wanted was people that lived in the
[23:37] community. So, what I originally thought
I was going to do, which would have been
[23:41] really easy, we scrapped because it
wasn't right for the community. And I've
[23:47] done business in New Town now in two
years, 50 years. Some of you have been
[23:52] members of my club. And we try to do
things that are exemplary. And we try to
[23:56] do things that give back to the
community. People may not like some of
[24:00] the things I do outside of my business,
but the fact of the matter, I've always
[24:03] have thought that what I could do best
for our community, whether it's raising
[24:08] money for charities or uh supporting
different businesses or whatever the
[24:13] case may be. Um, so the plan we're going
to present tonight, I think you'll get
[24:18] the facts from our our experts here, is
a far better plan than Allen. And that
[24:23] doesn't mean that Allen didn't have a
great vision. He did. But at the time he
[24:26] came up with that many many years ago,
New Town has burrow has changed quite
[24:32] quite a bit. And I think this plan on
its merits uh really really adds to the
[24:38] community. Really I think it's it's a
wonderful community. I you may or may
[24:43] not have heard I've most recently um uh
I will be buying the Burden Hand
[24:48] Building uh on April 15th. I have two or
three other uh sites right on State
[24:53] Street that I own. I have a vested
interest in making sure we do a plan
[24:58] that really really contributes to the
community. So, that's all I really
[25:02] wanted to tell you. I'm I'm honored to
be able to stand here and say I have an
[25:07] opportunity, I think, to do something
that's a really gamecher for the burrow
[25:11] and I think the surrounding community.
And I'm very proud and blessed to say I
[25:16] will do everything I can to make that a
huge success. And I think um we do have
[25:21] information that we and I do want to
tell you we did we did go around and uh
[25:26] one of my employees, Linda Mitchell, who
will be celebrating our 45th uh work
[25:31] anniversary this May, uh basically went
on foot, which is pretty good for
[25:35] somebody 75 years old, and went door to
door every every surrounding business,
[25:42] every resident she could with unbiased
asking, "How do you feel about this
[25:48] project?" not asking them for their
support, just playing it right down the
[25:51] middle. And I think if we get a chance
to show you the results of that, it was
[25:55] pretty overwhelming that people uh
people really want to see this happen.
[26:00] So anyway, thank you very much for
listening to me and I appreciate it.
[26:06] So, what you're going to see next is um
a visual
[26:12] uh and a descriptive presentation from
David Mow and Michael Lawson. Uh both uh
[26:19] members of Minnow and Wasco, which is a
regional architectural firm
[26:24] headquartered in Lambertville. Uh Dave
and Michael have been working with us
[26:29] from the get-go since um Jim's
acquisition of the property last year
[26:34] and um I think uh hopefully you'll feel
as we do that the changes that um they
[26:43] will visually review with you and Jim's
overview description of that are
[26:49] I think provide real municipal benefits
to um the burrow and to a greater area
[26:55] outside the burrow when you see the
changes that hopefully uh you'll think
[27:00] are worthy of incorporating into any new
revised plan. So with that as
[27:04] background, I'll turn it over to David
and Mike.
[27:10] » Good evening. I'm David Mow um with
Minnow and Wasco Architects and
[27:14] Planners. And I have a big smile on my
face tonight. I'm a New Town burrow
[27:19] resident and this plan I think is going
to be uh what New Town needs in this
[27:26] location. We've had an eyesore in this
location for years and years and we'd
[27:32] like that to end and do something beyond
just be a development project uh for a
[27:38] developer to make money. This is
something very special that uh the
[27:42] community needs and will benefit from.
Uh Do you advance? Go ahead.
[27:50] So, uh, this is our development team,
Jim and his partner Bob Weller, myself,
[27:57] Michael Lawson, Lynn Yahaya, who's a
landscape architect,
[28:02] our civil engineer, Ron Monree, Ed who
you know, Jeff Manard who works with
[28:08] Jim, and John Kennedy who's a who's a
planner.
[28:14] Why don't you move on? I think Jim has
covered some of these main points. So,
[28:19] I'm going to reiterate a little bit of
what Jim said, not much, but um we have
[28:25] created a 14 to 15,000 square foot
uh town square on the property. And this
[28:32] is a place that can be activated by New
Town Burrow to do various things whether
[28:38] it's a Christmas tree lighting or bull
market carts. Uh any kind of festival
[28:44] that we want to have. It can have
entertainment. Uh we have a a covered
[28:49] pavilion where groups can perform and
it's a space that New Town really
[28:54] doesn't have and it does happen to be
right in the center of town.
[28:58] We've enhanced the greenway trail. It
was always contemplated
[29:03] uh in the plan uh that was approved
prior to this, but we've made some very
[29:09] special changes to it and it's going to
be a great walkway for the community.
[29:14] It's open to the public. It's not a
private amenity all along New Town Creek
[29:19] in this section of the property.
the um
[29:24] public parking spaces. We've got
55 u public parking spaces.
[29:32] We have 20 parking spaces set aside for
phase one residential. The building uh
[29:38] the residents who live over the liquor
store off of State Street are just
[29:43] parking with everyone else in that beat
up parking lot. So we've got reserved
[29:48] now 20 specific spaces for those
residents.
[29:52] We've got 20 spaces for the existing
retailers, the liquor store and our
[29:58] favorite croissant store.
So we've provided the parking that we
[30:03] need not only for the commercial and for
public, but we've also got the required
[30:09] number of parking spaces for our
residents.
[30:13] Um, one of the things you'll see about
our parking that's quite different from
[30:17] the prior approved plan by Alan Smith is
that our parking u, much of it for the
[30:24] residential portion is underneath the
buildings and out of sight. And this is
[30:29] something that makes it a higher quality
project all around. It's a elegant way
[30:34] to live. You can park under your
building and take an elevator up uh, and
[30:39] avoid the inclement weather when you're
bringing groceries in. And so it's a
[30:42] very very nice way to live.
We've uh the project now includes 125
[30:49] rental uh apartments and we expect our
renters here to be in two basic groups.
[30:56] We and we see this all over in downtown
redevelopment. The first group would be
[31:02] young uh professional type people who
are just starting out and running an
[31:07] apartment uh employed in the area. And
the second group which we see in
[31:14] particularly important in the New Town
project is an empty neester market. Um
[31:21] we have many people who have lived in
New Town and the surrounding communities
[31:25] for a long time who may be at a point
where they're selling their home and
[31:30] want to keep a a residence in New Town.
Maybe they're buying a home in Florida
[31:35] or the Carolas, but they want to keep a
residence here because this is where
[31:40] their relationships are. This is where
their families are. This is where they
[31:43] worship. This is their home, and they
want to stay here in a in a very, very
[31:49] nice building. So, that's that's kind of
who we seek coming to this project.
[31:57] The other thing that Jim mentioned was
that we have 85,000 fewer
[32:02] annual car trips to this project than
the prior approval.
[32:08] And a lot of that is based on the fact
that we have removed the retail
[32:12] component that was in the prior approved
plan. And as Jim mentioned, the retail
[32:18] that was contemplated here was
competitive with our good merchants on
[32:23] State Street and other locations within
town on Sycamore.
[32:27] And uh there was really not the proper
parking to support it. And it created
[32:33] this uh influx of parking even in the
evening which would have been in a
[32:39] little bit of a competition with the
residents and a nuisance for the
[32:43] residents to have cars coming in
throughout the evening for retail uses.
[32:49] So we think that this is a benefit to
reduce the amount of traffic that's
[32:53] coming in and out of this site.
Um the architecture that we're going to
[32:59] be presenting tonight is a high quality
architecture that really works well with
[33:04] the phase one architecture. We did meet
with Harb and we got comments from them
[33:09] that they wanted to see an
interpretation of
[33:14] uh what was done in phase one and the
idea there I think is that it's a
[33:19] it's a site that did hold industrial
uses back in the day. We actually
[33:24] consulted with Jeff Marshall who helped
us figure out what existed on this site
[33:30] way back in the day. And as you may
know, larger businesses tended to locate
[33:36] in two places historically. One was
along rail railroad tracks and the other
[33:41] was along streams or waterways. And on
this site in particular, there was a
[33:47] very large millwork company that was
located right there along the New Town
[33:51] Creek. There was also a a huge complex
of green houses in that location. So,
[33:58] architecturally, you know, we can play
off of that idea of older industrial
[34:02] buildings that have been renovated into
newer residences. And that's what we've
[34:06] done. And I'll let Michael, my partner,
u describe that in a little bit more
[34:11] detail. Next slide.
Uh this is just an area that I think
[34:18] points out the uh supporters and
solicitation of people to comment on
[34:26] this on this project. This is where we
handed out um uh you know leaflets and
[34:32] gave information. Next,
[34:37] so this slide is a portion of the
approved Allen Smith slide. This is the
[34:42] northern end. Center Avenue is on the
right hand side of the sheet. And this
[34:49] was the approved plan. And he had a
great deal of retail on this end of the
[34:55] site in buildings two and three. And the
small plaza area that he had next to the
[35:01] creek was located right there adjacent
to Center Street.
[35:06] But he has very very little parking
there for that retail. Um and as you uh
[35:14] the park the public parking which is
sort of in the center of the site was
[35:19] too far away for the state street
merchants uh to be effective for them.
[35:25] Next slide.
This is more of the um southern end of
[35:31] the site where he had uh small
residential buildings perpendicular to
[35:36] the creek sort of lined up. um no
parking under the building, all surface
[35:42] parking. And in fact, he didn't make the
parking work on site. I think 50 spaces
[35:48] to support this project where at the
stocking works, which I think was a
[35:53] difficult thing for the boards here to
approve, even though they did, but I
[35:58] don't think personally I don't think it
worked. People really weren't going to
[36:01] walk that far to either uh park for the
residents or park for retail.
[36:08] Also, this uh big circle in the center
of the site ate up a lot of land and
[36:13] really didn't do much u for the site at
all. So, that's one thing that we we saw
[36:19] as a as a big problem right from the
get-go. Next,
[36:25] so here is a a portion of or this is our
site plan. Uh we have three residential
[36:33] buildings. one, two, one on the left,
two in the middle, three on the right.
[36:38] And these buildings have 43 units in the
first building, 49 in the second, and 33
[36:46] in the third.
And as you look on the right hand
[36:50] portion of the plan, we've got a greatly
enlarged town park and pavilion
[36:56] building. and you'll see renderings of
what this looks like, but we've taken
[37:00] the entry that's uh sort of behind
Starbucks and the hardware store and
[37:05] we've made that a a special paving
street as you come in that ties right
[37:10] into the plaza itself.
And on days when you'd be having
[37:15] functions there, music or performance or
whatever, we can close off that portion
[37:22] of the street and have it be an even
larger uh plaza that would include the
[37:28] street area itself. So that that's
something that I've seen done
[37:33] successfully in in several towns uh in
downtown areas.
[37:38] um our parking and I'll I'll let Michael
go through it but much of it is
[37:43] underneath the building. We have 241
residential spaces for 125 units and we
[37:51] have 133 of those as garage spaces. So
there are more than one to one spaces uh
[37:58] garage spaces for the residents.
And I'm going to let Michael take over
[38:04] and show you some beautiful
architecture. I must say that our client
[38:08] Jim has said, "I want to make this a
legacy project." Um, and he said that in
[38:16] relation to the quality of all the
materials to be used in this project and
[38:22] the design of the buildings. He wants it
to be something that will look good on
[38:27] all four sides. It's not going to have a
beautiful front and vinyl siding on the
[38:31] back. It's going to be a wonderful
four-sided project. And um I'll let
[38:38] Michael describe the architecture. Thank
you.
[38:41] » Thank you, Dave.
>> Perfect.
[38:45] » Thank you so much. As Dave alluded to,
my name is Michael Loss. I'm a partner
[38:49] uh with Dave at Mano and Wasco and we
specialize in these kinds of
[38:52] developments in downtown areas where we
try to rehabilitate areas that are not
[38:59] succeeding. Um, and I think Dave really
illustrated how the vision now for
[39:04] Liberty Center as well as ownership um,
really looked and saw what different
[39:09] components needed to be enhanced. Dave
alluded to the fact that we have this
[39:14] beautiful now retail or uh, events plaza
located here with the pavilion. We also
[39:20] have located the public parking closest
to the Starbucks and closest to State
[39:25] Street so that those people that are
using that public parking can have an
[39:30] easy and accessible uh walk back up to
where all the businesses are located. As
[39:36] we come down into the site, we've really
taken a uh view that we have to minimize
[39:43] the the size of the buildings through
shaping them and creating view
[39:48] corridors. And one of the things that we
did here was you can see on each of
[39:53] these corridors heading down towards uh
the inner side of the site, that is
[39:58] where we've located our main entry, our
architectural feature. You can also see
[40:03] that we've done that here in this
location. We've in we've included even a
[40:08] park uh next to this area for green
space. And you can see this kind of
[40:13] working through the whole site plan.
There are different nodes that occur as
[40:18] you walk through and you experience the
site. And that's really what we wanted
[40:22] to do. That's how it integrates into the
burrow and the downtown here uh in New
[40:28] Town.
[40:32] Yes. So, as you look at at the at the
plan that you have here, this is a
[40:37] ground floor plan. The gray areas are
that parking those parking uh spaces
[40:43] that are on the ground floor. They are
the garage parking spaces. They're these
[40:46] light gray areas here and here. This
building actually has them in a basement
[40:52] level underneath it. So, there's even
parking underneath this this uh building
[40:57] here in building one. So each of these
buildings has that level of parking. The
[41:02] pink areas is where we have those nodes
and that's where we have that lobby
[41:08] space and amenity space. That's going to
include a few different things and I
[41:12] have uh some imagery of that as we get
further along. But in there you'll have
[41:17] an elegant lobby space. You'll have a
club room, fitness areas, co-working
[41:22] spaces, all the amenities that come and
are expected now in these kinds of
[41:27] communities throughout the Northeast.
And then um as you see these plans as we
[41:32] progress further, you'll see that the
yellow components are the residential
[41:36] units, how they stack in the building
and how they step back in different
[41:40] locations as we move up the the plan
here.
[41:47] some of the areas that we're looking to
enhance. Um, and these are some theme
[41:51] imagery of the public spaces that we're
we're hoping to create, the public
[41:55] plazas, the entertainment areas. Um,
areas that you can have a Christmas tree
[42:01] lighting or manora lighting or an event
for your holidays. Um, as well as like
[42:06] Dave mentioned, you could have uh areas
for food trucks and festivals and those
[42:12] kinds of things, but also for leisure.
the the walkway along the creek is an
[42:17] very important piece of this
development, but also of the the entire
[42:22] downtown New Town Burough. And that
really allows us to connect both the
[42:26] residential to that natural perspective
that you see into the creek um but also
[42:32] to the downtown and the walkability of
downtown.
[42:36] These are some of the images that I just
alluded to for the interior amenities.
[42:40] These are this is the level of amenity
that is expected at these kinds of of
[42:45] projects and and these types of new
residences. So you can see the the the
[42:50] private dining areas for the residents
of the community, the club rooms, the
[42:54] fitness areas, as well as the level of
design that's brought into each of the
[42:58] residential units. As Dave said, the the
people that we expect to be living here
[43:04] and renting here are people that have a
high quality of living. They want to see
[43:08] these kinds of amenities and they want
to see wood floors. They want to see a
[43:13] beautiful kitchen. Those are the things
that make this community that much
[43:17] special for uh New Town Burough.
As we go up to the next floor plan, this
[43:24] is actually a typical floor plan. And
this this shows that on the upper floors
[43:29] of the building, you have all
residential units. This is where we have
[43:33] a mix of one uh bedrooms, two bedrooms,
and three-bedroom units that really
[43:38] enhance and create different uh size of
units for the different income levels,
[43:45] but also for what people are looking
for. We think that we have the correct
[43:49] mix uh that's warranted for this uh
downtown environment. And as Dave
[43:54] alluded to, we do have the correct
amount of parking to park these uh uh
[43:59] these residences both in the surface
parking as well as the garage parking
[44:02] underneath the buildings.
This is then the roof plan. And you can
[44:07] see that on the roof plan, this is where
we hide our mechanical units, but also
[44:12] we have an amenity up here as well. And
on buildings two and three in this
[44:17] location and this location, we're
providing for rooftop amenity decks.
[44:22] This was really important for Jim and
his and his development team that we
[44:26] created an an area that you could go up
to the top of the building and you could
[44:31] look over the creek, look over the
natural environment, as well as look
[44:34] over downtown uh the downtown area. In
these areas, you'll see that you have
[44:40] fire pits, you have areas for lounging,
you have areas to uh allow you to
[44:46] sunbathe in in certain areas, um as well
as barbecue grills and areas uh so that
[44:51] you can actually cook um and bring those
things back down to your
[44:55] » Wi-Fi
>> as well as work outside and Wi-Fi, which
[44:58] is very important nowadays in in our
technology communities.
[45:03] So that leads us into the vision of what
this is going to look like. And I bring
[45:10] up this is um the an image looking from
our our central street um at building 2
[45:17] at the entry to building 2 where the
park is um that we've created at the
[45:21] center of the site. And as Dave had
said, we met with Harb and we worked
[45:26] with them um through a pallet of
materials that includes an elegant gray
[45:31] brick um as well as traditional brick
detailing um with modern accents. And
[45:36] you can see those modern accents at the
center uh entry area where we have uh a
[45:42] a larger glazing area on that on the
building that denotes where we believe
[45:48] the node is on the building. the
important piece where people are drawn
[45:52] to, but it also has a contextual
element. Even on this building, as you
[45:57] as you came in, it has a large glass
entryway. On several other buildings
[46:04] throughout the burrow, it has this
vernacular. We wanted to use that as
[46:08] well here to bring in some context in
terms of how buildings have been
[46:12] rehabilitated in the burrow. You can
also see that on um several of the
[46:17] different architectural elements, we've
created a residential feel. And you can
[46:21] see that in the gable pitched roofs that
we're creating, the bay windows that we
[46:26] have on the on the building, the
balconies that we've incorporated into
[46:30] the language of the ins and outs, as
well as the [clears throat]
[46:36] the divided lights in each of the
windows on the lower portion of the
[46:41] building. This breaks down the scale of
the building and allows for a more
[46:45] residential typology that we think
merges well uh with the the aesthetic
[46:50] that we were trying to create on site.
[clears throat]
[46:55] The next image just takes you slightly
around is looking at the same building
[46:59] at a different perspective here. Um you
can see how we're pushing in the
[47:04] building in different locations. That's
where we have several of our balconies
[47:08] as well as our um stepbacks in the
building. On the top floor of the
[47:13] building for a lot of the proportion of
it, we do have a pretty considerable
[47:17] step back. A step back is a push back of
the building on the top floor. This
[47:22] allows for the eye to be stopped at that
one story below where we have that
[47:27] cornis line and that glass railing as
you walk past it. It's another way that
[47:32] we're breaking down the scale of those
buildings.
[47:37] This is now a view of the same building
on the walkway side. And here you can
[47:42] see that on the one side we have the
creek, we have the walkway, and then we
[47:46] have our parking on the ground floor and
three stories of residential above.
[47:51] We've changed the materials as we get
higher in the building to a panel
[47:55] material rather than a masonry material.
It allows for a softness as we go up the
[48:00] building, but also allows for us to step
back the building here above the
[48:04] parking. That allows for larger private
terraces for those first floor of
[48:08] residential units.
[48:12] This is an image looking at the entry of
building one. This is that L-shaped
[48:16] building that we looked at on the plan.
You can see here we have a slightly
[48:20] different um style. We have the two
gable roofs on either side. We've really
[48:26] minimized the height in this location,
bringing those uh top gables down into
[48:31] that top floor. Um, as well as creating
that entry node that we talked about um
[48:37] as well throughout the presentation.
Here on this side of the building, we
[48:41] have a much larger at uh right above the
parking podium uh amenity area that can
[48:47] be used for public or private events as
well as barbecue grills, lounge areas
[48:53] for the residents of the community.
>> And you can see the entry of the parking
[48:58] going down underneath the building using
the grading of the site to our benefit.
[49:03] That's another thing that I did want to
bring up. As you can see, we're sitting
[49:07] at the lowest point of the site in a lot
of these areas. South State Street is
[49:12] actually almost a story higher um at
that level. So, the buildings, even
[49:17] though they are four stories tall, do
sit much lower in the site. As you as
[49:23] you kind of know if you've ever been to
the liquor store, which I'm sure you all
[49:26] have, that liquor store actually sits a
story lower for its entry. from South
[49:31] State Street, you go down the hill and
you enter in on the lower level. That
[49:35] allows for these buildings to minimize
the height and we think that it's still
[49:39] very much appropriate uh to then add
this height in this location. As Dave
[49:45] said, historically this site has had
larger buildings on it, more
[49:49] manufacturing buildings, those kinds of
things. This is now what makes sense for
[49:54] downtown areas. Manufacturing doesn't
make sense. residential walking wallets,
[49:59] people who are going to activate your
downtown. Really makes a lot of sense
[50:04] here.
This is uh as we now progress towards
[50:09] the public plaza. This is building
three. This is a a smaller building. You
[50:14] can see the same kind of architectural
details that we've added to the
[50:18] building. You might say, "Okay, so it
looks a little bit the same from
[50:22] building to building." That was actually
a comment from Harb. They wanted a a
[50:27] harmonious and a similar contextual
feeling on each of the different
[50:33] buildings. Originally, we had proposed
several different brick varieties, some
[50:37] different materials. The guidance that
we received back from them is that they
[50:41] wanted it to be more streamlined. We
heard that and we prepared a
[50:45] presentation and designed the buildings
appropriately in that manner.
[50:50] This is now a view as we progress closer
to that public plaza on the walkway
[50:56] side. On this side, we actually are able
to put our fitness center and some of
[51:01] our amenities activating that walkway uh
at that level here. So, we have large uh
[51:07] open windows um areas that you can see
the activity on the inside as you're
[51:11] walking by on the walkway.
[51:16] And you can see in the back right there
that we have the First National Bank.
[51:20] We've imported that into our models. And
you can see that in relationship to the
[51:25] Heights, it is very similar. Um, and
that's right across the street from our
[51:30] public plaza as well as, you know, this
building fronts on that public plaza as
[51:35] well. So now this is now turned around
and and this is an image from that that
[51:41] that bank and from Center Street. And
you can see the the road that we've
[51:46] created here that really uses the same
materiality. We use ballards and and
[51:52] different color treatments to to denote
where the driving area is and where the
[51:57] pedestrian realm is. But during festival
times, during public events, you can
[52:02] close that street down and it becomes an
extension of that. That's how you get an
[52:06] even larger area for those kinds of
events. on a on a weekend, you could
[52:11] have um a line of uh food trucks sitting
there activating that public plaza,
[52:16] which a lot of downtowns have. You can
also see that we've added a pavilion
[52:21] located at the end. We think that this
is a great opportunity uh for music, for
[52:27] sound to really enthral and activate not
only Liberty Center, but the whole
[52:34] downtown area with that kind of
activity.
[52:38] And then you can also see the walkway on
the right. This actually creates that
[52:42] conclusion in some ways or that center
area that activates that walkway. It
[52:48] allows for an area that somebody could
walk to the public plaza and then walk
[52:52] back.
>> I think this is phase one.
[52:55] » And then you can also see phase one
located there um in the rendering which
[52:59] is where the liquor store and uh and the
bakery is. So you can see that does sit
[53:04] higher on the site because it is one
story higher along South State Street
[53:09] and you can see the heights of that are
relative to the heights that we have
[53:13] proposed for for our new buildings in
the rear of the site.
[53:18] So that concludes our presentation for
tonight. It gives you a great overview
[53:23] of what we are proposing, the vision
that we are proposing here. And we
[53:28] really are very excited to bring this to
an area of your downtown that needs a
[53:34] little inspiration. And we believe that
this is the correct inspiration for the
[53:38] right time and the architecture that
that follows. So we really welcome you
[53:43] to downtown living in New Town Burough
and we think that this vision is that.
[53:46] Thank you so much.
[53:51] » [applause]
[53:54] » Um the next and uh final presenter would
be uh our planner, John Kennedy. Uh John
[54:02] is a longtime municipal planner. Uh he
represents many municipalities in Bucks
[54:09] and Montgomery counties and um he and I
have collaborated on multiple projects
[54:15] on the private side as well. And I
thought this particular assignment was
[54:22] tailor made for John because um he does
a lot of work with other uh developing
[54:28] or redeveloping burrows such as Hatboro.
Um we're also working on another project
[54:34] in in Doylestown. And uh the task that
John had was to try to develop a
[54:41] framework for which um a municipality
could consider a project that uh David
[54:46] and Mike just described uh and
recognizing the inherent limitations of
[54:51] the split zoning that exists today on
the site. part of the site. It's, as we
[54:56] all know, it's almost nine acres, but
it's owned town center and VR2, village
[55:03] village center, too. Um, and neither of
those individually uh are zoning
[55:09] districts that are easily accommodated
by a project like this. So John's task
[55:16] was to identify a overlay that we've
called, as I indicated a few minutes
[55:22] ago, uh the uh greenway
uh redevelopment overlay as a possible
[55:29] vehicle for to consider something like
this. So I'd like John to talk about the
[55:33] ordinance. We submitted that draft
ordinance with the sketch that u we made
[55:38] the formal submission of a couple weeks
back. So like John to provide some
[55:42] planning concepts why he considered it,
what values and benefits we think it
[55:46] serves. Uh so you can consider that as
you consider the other elements of the
[55:51] project.
[55:55] Thank you. Uh my name is John Kennedy.
I'm the principal of Kennedy Associates
[56:00] Planners and Landes Consultants.
Uh just to briefly give you a little bit
[56:05] of my background, I have been a
professional planner for 46 years. I
[56:09] have had my own consulting firm for the
last 36 years. Uh we work for a wide
[56:14] variety of private developers,
nonprofits, and also we have municipal
[56:20] clients. Um currently I am the planning
consultant for Lansdale Burough. Uh also
[56:26] the planning consultant for Hatboro. In
the past I've I also worked with uh
[56:31] Amler Burough, with Richland Township,
Abington Township. uh typically in those
[56:37] cases on special projects
when um in and in addition to that uh I
[56:45] have also spent 26 years serving on two
planning commissions, one in Lansdale
[56:50] Burough and one in Lower Southford
Township. Um 12 years in in Lansdale, 14
[56:56] years in Lower Salford. So I have a
pretty good understanding of both sides
[57:00] of the table and how things work.
uh Jim brought me in and Ed brought me
[57:06] in to uh take a look at the plan and
review the existing ordinance and some
[57:11] of the existing planning documents uh of
the bureau. So we started as we often do
[57:18] by looking at the existing districts and
then we go on to the comprehensive plan
[57:24] and I am glad to see that you have
recently updated your comprehensive plan
[57:28] in uh 22.
uh not all townships and burrows are
[57:34] that uh prompt at renewing their
comprehensive plan. So kudos for that.
[57:41] Um when I started looking at this, I I
in talking to the whole team, I realized
[57:46] that uh there had been quite a bit of of
input and thought put into this this
[57:53] plan. and and Jim uh does care very much
about uh the way New Town looks and the
[58:01] downtown area. And so um we started
looking at different ways that we might
[58:08] be able to implement this proposed plan.
And like most things, there's more than
[58:13] one way to do that. Um, probably the the
typical way that most people might
[58:19] approach this would be to provoke uh,
excuse me, propose uh, some kind of text
[58:24] amendment on the underlying zoning.
Unfortunately, in this case, we have two
[58:29] zoning districts, the TC and the B2. And
the downside to that would be it starts
[58:35] to then affect other properties in the
bureau that have that same zoning
[58:39] district. So that may not be the best
way to approach it. Uh another thing we
[58:46] could do way we could uh implement the
proposed plan would be to make an
[58:51] application to the zoning hearing board
and we would have a long list of
[58:56] variances that we would need. Uh
however, my own opinion, I'm not an
[59:02] attorney, but I don't think that that
would be successful in this case because
[59:05] of the high legal bar that we need to uh
overcome for variances and and obviously
[59:12] the use does have the property does have
a a use due to the fact that it has an
[59:18] approved plan on it. So, I don't know
that that would be the best path either.
[59:24] So, we started to talk about an overlay
uh district, which I know that you do
[59:31] not have many overlays. I believe only
one, just a flood plane overlay
[59:35] district, which is actually very common.
Uh many municipalities use overlays for
[59:40] flood planes, deep slopes, and riparian
corridors. Um but I actually utilize
[59:47] overlays for many, many different types
of projects. Uh we utilize them in
[59:51] Lansdale Burrow. We utilize them uh in
Hatboro quite a bit. Uh and in many of
[59:59] the other projects that uh I work on uh
we do use overlays. One of the
[1:00:05] advantages of it in um in my opinion is
that we're not changing the underlying
[1:00:10] zoning map. It all stays the same. The
regulations stay the same. All you're
[1:00:15] really doing is you're applying
uh you're you're giving the land owner
[1:00:21] another development option on that piece
of land. So, it sits on top of the
[1:00:25] existing zoning and you could develop it
either under the existing zoning or you
[1:00:31] could develop it under the overlay. One
thing you don't get to do is pick and
[1:00:35] choose which regulations you want to do.
We get people doing that occasionally in
[1:00:39] Landdale where they'll they'll say I'll
take this from the business district and
[1:00:42] this from the downtown overlay district.
Um but you cannot do that. Um, so
[1:00:49] looking at the the work that uh Dave and
Michael have produced and going and and
[1:00:55] visiting the site and walking around the
town, uh, I really think that this is
[1:01:00] probably the the best way to be able to
solve this this little bit of a puzzle
[1:01:06] in being able to implement a project
such as this uh, on a site like this
[1:01:11] where you have two different uh, zoning
districts. uh but we need to be able to
[1:01:17] bring them together so that we can have
one coherent project.
[1:01:21] So while there are uh two different
zoning districts, that said,
[1:01:28] those two zoning districts are not
really that far apart. They they may be
[1:01:32] far apart in your minds. I I get that.
But I've worked on sites where, you
[1:01:37] know, half of it's R3 and the other
half's industrial. So we don't have that
[1:01:42] here. If you examine the the TC district
and then you examine the um the gateway
[1:01:49] district, the B2,
many of the same uses are still allowed.
[1:01:53] It's just it there's the allowance for
residential uses and the allowance for
[1:01:57] non-residential uses. They're just
regulated in different ways, which was
[1:02:01] one of the main reasons why I thought
that an overlay is ideal for this
[1:02:05] particular site.
I became even more convinced after I
[1:02:11] dove into the comprehensive plan because
what
[1:02:15] jumped out at me and rather surprised me
is the fact that uh this project has the
[1:02:21] ability to
uh align with many many of the goal
[1:02:26] statements in your comprehensive plan
which I was a little bit surprised at
[1:02:31] that one project could kind of check so
many boxes in a comp plan.
[1:02:36] Um, and many of those are uh laid out in
the intent statement. I'm not going to
[1:02:43] go through this line by line because I
know you have a a large agenda, but I'm
[1:02:47] just going to briefly go through it and
then I will more than happy to answer
[1:02:50] any questions you have. Uh, but in the
intent district, I do want to just spend
[1:02:55] a moment there. The intent statement,
uh, we we have five um, eight different
[1:03:00] intent statements. Many of these are are
taken directly from your comprehensive
[1:03:05] plan or they reference to the
comprehensive plan. They also um many of
[1:03:11] these are taken from another document
which is a little bit older uh 2011,
[1:03:17] the New Town Creek Wershed Conservation
Plan prepared by the Heritage
[1:03:21] Conservancy.
And that was a really interesting plan
[1:03:25] because it gets into
um many other topics other than just the
[1:03:31] creek itself and the watershed and the
hydraology of it all. It actually does
[1:03:36] get into
um things like parking, land uses,
[1:03:41] housing. uh I was actually quite
surprised and once again many of these
[1:03:47] goals or recommendations in that case uh
in that study uh also do align with this
[1:03:54] particular project and I think there's
the uh ability to maybe check some of
[1:03:59] those boxes off too.
So um basically I will go through and at
[1:04:04] least read these. Um the first one is to
implement the recommendations of the new
[1:04:09] town bureau comprehensive plan
specifically core recommendations for
[1:04:13] sustainability, mobility, resilience and
balance.
[1:04:18] Also to establish and preserve a
greenway ribbon along the New Town
[1:04:22] Creek,
to redevelop underutilized
[1:04:27] sites along the New Town Creek,
to establish a greater variety of uses
[1:04:33] to complement local burrow businesses.
to provide a greater variety of housing
[1:04:39] types within the burrow
to provide additional community
[1:04:43] gathering areas in the burrow
to create pedestrian connections with
[1:04:49] nearby recreational facilities which was
one thing that actually was not
[1:04:53] mentioned and that is the uh bridge
connection to the park over in New
[1:04:58] Township.
Uh and then finally to provide access
[1:05:02] from the burough's commercial core to
burrow recreation facilities, both the
[1:05:07] the greenway itself and then the park uh
further south.
[1:05:12] Um the way the overlay is structured is
what we call a mapped overlay. There's
[1:05:18] actually a couple of different types. Uh
you can either define an area on your
[1:05:23] zoning map just like you have for other
district uh districts.
[1:05:27] uh or they also sometimes overlays are
done uh where it would apply on an
[1:05:34] entire district say on the whole R3
district or something. In this case
[1:05:40] we're talking about specific area that
is mapped.
[1:05:46] Um in order to qualify for this um there
must be a minimum gross tract area of 8
[1:05:54] acres. There must be a minimum of 1,000
feet of frontage along the new town
[1:06:00] creek and the track must have 300 feet
of frontage on State Street. So that's
[1:06:07] what you use to really tighten it down
and
[1:06:11] really just apply it to this one area.
If any of those
[1:06:16] uh standards were tweaked, it may apply
to other properties, but when I looked
[1:06:21] around, I could not find any that it
would apply to. the standards would have
[1:06:25] to be radically reduced uh like going
from a thousand feet of frontage on the
[1:06:29] creek to 300 feet of frontage on the
creek. And I don't I don't know that uh
[1:06:34] certainly we are not interested in that
and I'm not sure that the burrow is but
[1:06:38] you could do that at your own uh leisure
if you wanted to in the future.
[1:06:44] Um in terms of uses uh they're laid out
here. It's a a variety of residential
[1:06:51] which are multif family uh dwellings,
apartment style units and then a wide
[1:06:56] variety of uh non-residential. The
reason for that is that as some of the
[1:07:01] spaces may come up, we want to make sure
that there are a lot of different uses
[1:07:04] that could go in those spaces.
Uh we then get into the development
[1:07:10] regulations
uh on page two which provide once again
[1:07:14] the tracked area. It regulates mix uh
gets into the mixture of non-residential
[1:07:21] and residential. Also uh there is an
open space requirement.
[1:07:26] Uh 25% of a GRRO tract uh must be uh
remain in open space. In addition to the
[1:07:36] open space regulations just
[clears throat] the simple percentage,
[1:07:40] there's also further refinement of the
open space standards. For instance, 70%
[1:07:45] of the minimum required open space must
be designated as a public greenway along
[1:07:50] the creek. We we want to make sure that
you get the the the walkway along the
[1:07:56] creek as opposed to any kind of bait and
switch. That's why they're all
[1:08:00] specifically written into this
ordinance.
[1:08:03] Uh in addition, 10% of the minimum
required open space shall be improved
[1:08:09] community open space. This is something
that I'm very big on. Um, I know in
[1:08:14] Bucks County it's very popular to say
we're going to take 50% or 60% of the
[1:08:19] land and preserve it as open space. And
you got yourself a nice feel, but this
[1:08:23] is a burrow. You have people who use the
streets. It's active. You want to have
[1:08:28] improved open space. Uh, it doesn't need
to be huge because improved open space
[1:08:33] is much more expensive than natural open
space. But once again, we want it in the
[1:08:39] ordinance which is why it's here. Uh and
then we also have limitations on the
[1:08:44] amount of impervious surface that can be
within the open space.
[1:08:48] Uh below that we have some standards for
the greenway in terms of the uh width
[1:08:54] standards accessibility.
Uh and then at the bottom of page three
[1:08:59] we get into dimensional regulations.
[1:09:06] We uh
dimensional uh standards are on page
[1:09:12] four. Uh and then at the bottom are
design standards. Uh and then we have
[1:09:17] design standards for buildings, street
access drives,
[1:09:22] uh parking, off- streetet loading and
trash, streetscape and streetscape
[1:09:27] amenities.
And then there are uh at the very end of
[1:09:31] it there is the uh statement that the
the site is also in the historic
[1:09:36] district which I'm sure many of you are
aware of and those regulations do have
[1:09:40] to be followed. So in kind of a quick
nutshell that's the ordinance that we
[1:09:45] have proposed. I think that
uh it's a way that you could
[1:09:52] uh implement this development.
Personally, from a planning standpoint,
[1:09:56] I think it's a wonderful opportunity.
When I go out there and look at the
[1:09:59] site, I look at the creek and quite
frankly, it needs some love. It really
[1:10:05] does. Not just fixed up, but also people
that will use it. People that will walk
[1:10:09] down the the the walkway and will cross
over the creek into the the park in New
[1:10:17] Township.
And I think it's something that also
[1:10:20] would provide some uh
additional um positive impact for the
[1:10:26] local businesses. I was especially
struck by the uh the one comment I think
[1:10:32] it was in the comprehensive plan where
they
[1:10:36] you want open space in the downtown, but
you want it to be accessible to the main
[1:10:41] commercial areas. And I think that
that's actually a great idea. It's sort
[1:10:44] of unusual, but part of it is because
you've got this unusual uh landscape.
[1:10:50] The fact that you have this creek that
is right smack up against your downtown.
[1:10:56] And uh my own personal feeling is it is
a real opportunity. Uh this is our first
[1:11:03] presentation. Obviously, some of these
things are going to get tweaked and
[1:11:06] changed a little bit, but uh we welcome
your input and welcome your questions.
[1:11:12] And that that concludes our
presentation.
[1:11:18] » Uh John's right. Um that's the extent
tonight of the formal uh presentation.
[1:11:24] Obviously, we would solicit any comments
uh that anyone would have about anything
[1:11:30] you saw or heard this evening.
recognizing it's a lot to digest in one
[1:11:35] meeting but um it's a important first
step for us and I'm sure u as well for
[1:11:42] council as well as the other
stakeholders um in terms of the process
[1:11:47] that we at least the way I think about
it um
[1:11:52] our thought would be our next step would
be to return to the planning commission
[1:11:56] to continue the conversation we started
in November
[1:12:00] um and to continue to flesh out the
information that we presented to you
[1:12:05] this evening, which uh planning
commission hasn't seen anything since
[1:12:09] November. So, some of what we presented
tonight might be somewhat new or
[1:12:13] different to them. Um, one of the, uh,
encouragements we did receive from your
[1:12:19] planning commission in November was to
reach out to the community, make sure
[1:12:23] others uh, are consulted that have both
in a direct and maybe a less direct
[1:12:29] impact, which we have, I think, done a
better job than we did pre-Nvember
[1:12:36] uh, when, uh, some of the planning
commission folks thought we had not done
[1:12:40] enough uh, listening to other community
segments. So I think we've done much
[1:12:46] better since November to do that. Um and
we will continue to do that with any
[1:12:51] feedback you provide us and as we go
through the process any other feedback
[1:12:55] we receive. So um I know there are
people here in the audience that may or
[1:13:00] may not want to speak. One unrepresented
group uh that's not here tonight that
[1:13:06] I'm authorized to report to you is the
phase one condominium unit owners with
[1:13:12] whom we've had a lot of engagement uh
over multiple issues not just uh what
[1:13:19] would phase two look like but also
addressing lingering issues they had as
[1:13:25] residents there today which Jim in large
measure has addressed But none of the
[1:13:32] residents that reside there today could
attend tonight. But I am authorized to
[1:13:37] tell you that there is unanimous support
for what you've seen and heard this
[1:13:42] evening by that small group. Now, I'm
sure they will be able to come at
[1:13:47] subsequent meetings to comment as well,
but wanted you to they wanted me to
[1:13:51] share that with you tonight as you think
about what you've seen and heard. So,
[1:13:56] uh, David and and Michael and John, uh,
can answer any other questions and Jim
[1:14:02] answer any other questions you may have
tonight. Uh, and hopefully you would
[1:14:07] offer folks in the audience if they
choose to to speak good or positively or
[1:14:12] otherwise about what they've seen and
heard tonight. Thanks.
[1:14:38] Thank you. Um, first of all, uh, to Jim
Worthington and the whole team, thank
[1:14:43] you. It was a very wellorganized
presentation and we appreciate the
[1:14:47] thoughtfulness in terms of how you put
it together and the thoughtfulness in
[1:14:51] which uh that you um have have shown in
terms of developing the plan. Um I have
[1:14:57] a question I think maybe best addressed
to the architects with respect to um
[1:15:03] maybe if you could summarize what the
differences are between this plan and
[1:15:08] the plan that you had presented
previously to the planning commission.
[1:15:12] Was that's mostly architectural or were
there site plan changes as well?
[1:15:19] » You know, it's funny. I just asked Ed if
I could just kind of simplify this and
[1:15:23] you just asked the question I was going
to answer, but he'll give you more
[1:15:27] detail. If you really want to simplify
this plan, [clears throat]
[1:15:32] the Staple View planet, just so we're
clear, had 88 apartments, but they also
[1:15:37] had a restaurant pad and other retail.
Our our plan is 125 apartments. So, it's
[1:15:45] really 37 apartments different, but not
all the mess that creates all the
[1:15:51] traffic.
>> Yeah.
[1:15:52] » All the parking problems.
>> Can I just interrupt you for a sec?
[1:15:55] Sure.
>> Because uh I def I definitely appreciate
[1:15:57] that difference. Um and I I'm familiar
with that plan. I was more focusing on
[1:16:04] the previous concept plan that you guys
had presented to the planning commission
[1:16:10] that you had presented to the planning
commission.
[1:16:12] » Our concept that we presented to the
commission.
[1:16:14] » Okay. Well, can I just finish my thought
and then he'll answer that. So I'm sorry
[1:16:18] I misre but I I think for the audience I
because you see hear all this stuff you
[1:16:22] think wow what's the difference between
the two? It was what that I had said
[1:16:26] earlier that it it's a it's really just
getting rid of all the retail and the
[1:16:31] restaurant pads and everything that
creates all the traffic and it just you
[1:16:35] know it Allan had a lot of apartments
88. We have 125. We don't have that many
[1:16:40] more than him but we eliminate all the
problems with the off-site parking the
[1:16:46] 1,700 cars per week, 85,000 cars per
year. We uh eliminate the uh we we have
[1:16:53] um more private uh public parking for
all the people right on center ABS so
[1:16:58] they can walk right into town. And you
know, of course, we've expanded the uh
[1:17:02] the the uh plaza space three times
bigger. We've enhanced the the walkway
[1:17:07] trails. We have a lot of public uh
things like the street lights and things
[1:17:12] like that that are surrounding that area
that we're going to be fixing. But I
[1:17:16] will tell you I believe pretty strongly
there isn't a whole lot of change from
[1:17:20] what we originally came with to what we
get because one of the the f things I
[1:17:25] directed the architect I said we're not
coming in with a plan where we're saying
[1:17:30] hey let's ask for the moon and let's
negotiate down. I'm not into that. I
[1:17:35] wanted to come in with a plan that we
can make it work for everybody but is
[1:17:40] not over the top that that doesn't need
to be, you know, negotiated from this
[1:17:47] number down. I I'm that's not my style.
We came in with the minimum we could do
[1:17:52] to make this plan work, not just for us,
but more so for the for the town. I
[1:17:57] think you're going to see we haven't we
haven't changed much of anything. I
[1:18:00] mean, people told me come in for with
200 apartments. I I'm not doing that.
[1:18:04] We're just not playing those games.
We're going to come in with what we
[1:18:07] think and it isn't a heck of a lot more
than what Allan had ironically. Yet,
[1:18:12] it's and God bless him. I love him. It's
a far greater plan for this community.
[1:18:17] So, go ahead.
>> Thank you. So, as Jim alluded to, that's
[1:18:21] my favorite word tonight. Um, we uh did
not change too much. It's more
[1:18:26] advancement of the architecture. um
advancement of some of the details that
[1:18:30] you see in the renderings as well as
some of the balconies and those kinds of
[1:18:35] architectural elements on the
architecture. Those are the advancements
[1:18:38] that we've made in terms of the
locations of the buildings um where we
[1:18:43] have the main components of the plan
that has all remained consistent with
[1:18:48] what we presented to the planning
commission in November. There has been
[1:18:51] some advancements in the overall
landscaping design. So certain things
[1:18:56] have been advanced further as we work
through the design process but
[1:19:00] everything in terms of the components
the locations of those components have
[1:19:04] remained consistent.
[1:19:07] » Thanks that that that was my question.
Now one really sort of simple really
[1:19:12] basic question in the uh the
illustrations the brick look brown and
[1:19:17] you had mentioned gray. So, um, is it
just a matter of how it comes out on the
[1:19:21] screen or what is it that you're using?
>> So, we're proposing a beige brick. Um,
[1:19:25] so I I thought that I had said beige. If
I had if I'm mistaken, I'm sorry, but um
[1:19:31] it's it's going to be a beige brick,
which I think is very elegant um for for
[1:19:35] the for the building. It's brownish. It
has some hues of different things. And
[1:19:40] during the planning commission process,
we can bring in some samples to show
[1:19:43] kind of the selection that we're
choosing. We think it works well with a
[1:19:47] lot of the downtown uh buildings along
South State Street um that have the the
[1:19:52] variety of brick color in terms of some
yellows, some browns, some grays. We
[1:19:57] think that this matches rather well.
When we were at Harb, we had proposed
[1:20:01] several red or uh burgundy uh colored
bricks and we advised that they would
[1:20:07] rather see uh the beige palette as
something that we do consistent on all
[1:20:11] of the buildings.
>> Thank you. Any
[1:20:16] other questions or comments from
council?
[1:20:19] » I do. I have one. Um, so the uh your
your sketch plan indicates that you are
[1:20:25] developing a TND. Are you still
anticipating that you're following our
[1:20:29] TND ordinance?
[1:20:39] Thi this would take some elements from
the TND ordinance uh but primarily we
[1:20:45] are drawing everything from the proposed
GRO overlay district.
[1:20:50] » Right.
>> So that that leads me to my second
[1:20:52] question. What are the major differences
between the GRRO and the TND ordinance
[1:20:58] knowing that the majority of your
project is actually in the V2 district
[1:21:02] that there's very little building most
of the building is on that side which
[1:21:07] does permit the TND
>> there there's uh differences in terms of
[1:21:12] the types of units and the mixture uh if
I recall I'd actually have to have my
[1:21:17] full notes because we did look at that
carefully um there's there's not
[1:21:22] necessar necessarily big differences
between these two districts. Um,
[1:21:28] so I'm I'm
>> so my I took a quick look at your o your
[1:21:34] overlay
>> and it appears to me that it is very
[1:21:37] similar to our TND with the exception of
the sizes of the buildings that they are
[1:21:42] taller, they are longer and they have
more units than our TND ordinance and
[1:21:47] our regular ordinance would permit. and
that the the mixeduse element which was
[1:21:52] very important when the TND ordinance
was put together seems to be lost in
[1:21:57] this development.
>> Well, I I think one of the things is
[1:22:01] that this is uh the the the
one of the differences between the
[1:22:07] proposed ordinance and uh the previous
plan and and the existing zoning is it's
[1:22:12] encouraging more commercial than might
be able to be leased or sold. Uh that's
[1:22:19] that's just a trend that we're seeing
everywhere uh across this state and
[1:22:23] actually across the country. Um so it's
pulling back on some of the commercial
[1:22:29] uh what is more important um and we
actually see this a lot in um well
[1:22:35] really in both Lansdale and Hapo uh
where the business owners they just want
[1:22:40] more households. It's as simple as that.
They want more households to support the
[1:22:45] local businesses. you can add uh just a
a little bit of commercial. Even then,
[1:22:51] it's going to depend on its actual
location because right now we're seeing
[1:22:55] a lot of empty commercial spaces of all
different varieties.
[1:23:01] » Thanks.
[1:23:05] » I do want to comment on the hype
briefly. Um,
[1:23:12] one of the things that uh I think it
might have been Dave mentioned this
[1:23:16] which is very important and a lot of
people cavalerely throw this around and
[1:23:22] that is the idea of why don't you put
all the parking spaces underneath the
[1:23:26] building. That is incredibly expensive
to do. And so in order to accomplish
[1:23:32] that
the developer see needs to make it
[1:23:36] worthwhile. I mean, just to be
completely honest about it, this plan
[1:23:41] would look completely different.
Even if it had less units, but you put
[1:23:45] all the parking on the surface, would
not be nearly as attractive.
[1:23:51] And so,
you do have to accommodate that within
[1:23:55] the architecture. And I think that's a
very important point to make.
[1:23:59] Well, I'm certainly sympathetic to that
and and I appreciate that a lot of the
[1:24:03] parking is being hidden because we are
trying to get away from seas of asphalt.
[1:24:08] Yeah.
>> Um and I understand that and I know that
[1:24:10] you have to balance the obviously the
economics of building something.
[1:24:16] » Um and as been told to us for years as
this property has been out there to be
[1:24:21] developed that you're trying to figure
out how you can afford to do it by doing
[1:24:25] this or that or something else. And I I
certainly understand that. I guess the
[1:24:29] end product though is what the town will
have and so that that's important. So I
[1:24:34] don't want to go into a lengthy
discussion about it now. I was just
[1:24:37] curious to get your feedback.
>> Just want to make sure that that the
[1:24:40] point was made because it is very very
important.
[1:24:42] » Sure.
>> Any additional comments or questions
[1:24:46] from council?
[1:24:50] I just want to say it's it's very
encouraging and um I look forward to
[1:24:55] working with this through and there's
been debates back and forth on a lot of
[1:25:00] issues and I don't know I think we can
come to an agreement and really make
[1:25:04] this thing work.
>> Thanks Gail. So, um, Greg and I talked
[1:25:10] about, you know, you brought up process.
So, we're going to take, um, the rest of
[1:25:14] the next few weeks of March for council
to review not only the proposed text
[1:25:18] amendments you said sent, but also our
engineers review of those. Um, and then
[1:25:23] we plan on, uh, discussing in our April
cycle at our work session. Um, moving
[1:25:28] forward to sending this to planning
commission for additional re review or,
[1:25:32] uh, going back to you um, with, you
know, our thoughts on on the proposal
[1:25:36] and what needs to change, etc., etc.,
before we send anything forward. So, we
[1:25:40] plan on having that on our next cycle in
April.
[1:25:43] » Okay.
[1:25:46] » You have any other questions or comments
for us?
[1:25:49] » Unless you're going to not solicit
public comment. I think there are people
[1:25:53] came tonight wanting to speak. So, I
don't know if that's appropriate now or
[1:25:57] do you want to wait? But
>> I mean, we typically don't um unless
[1:26:00] we're making a motion, but I I'm okay
with that if anyone would like to speak.
[1:26:14] Good evening. I'll keep this uh brief
and first of all, thank you for your
[1:26:18] service. I know that um these late
nights are are not something for
[1:26:22] everyone, so appreciate that. I'm Dave
Marcola. Uh I own three uh businesses
[1:26:27] here in the burrow uh in the real estate
industry, commercial, residential, and
[1:26:31] uh estate sales. and I also serve as the
president of the New Town Business
[1:26:35] Association for the past six years. Um,
I just wanted to give a few comments.
[1:26:41] You know, over the years I've been
involved in New Town, lived or worked in
[1:26:45] the community for the past 26 years. Um,
I uh had the opportunity to run First
[1:26:50] Night New Town for anybody that
remembers that back in the day on New
[1:26:53] Year's Eve. Uh, currently our parade,
our holiday parade and uh our car show
[1:26:59] and welcome day. And so I can say that
there's a lot of excitement from the
[1:27:03] folks who put those events on to have
space like a plaza, to have space that
[1:27:07] doesn't require costly inconveniences of
closing roads. And so we're excited
[1:27:12] about that. I also wanted to share that
we gave uh Jim and his team the
[1:27:16] opportunity to share this plan with our
members. We're over 300 business members
[1:27:20] strong at our January member meeting and
uh it was very wellreceived. I know
[1:27:26] Linda, as you heard, spent a lot of time
on the streets, uh, talking to
[1:27:30] businesses as well, hundreds of
businesses. And so, I've reviewed all of
[1:27:33] that. I've reviewed the original plans,
and I reviewed the plan that you saw
[1:27:37] here tonight. And I do think that, you
know, over the 26ome years that I've
[1:27:42] been here, we've all seen change, right?
We've all seen a lot of progress. And,
[1:27:47] uh, we've also seen a lot of things done
really well. On the residential front, I
[1:27:52] can't tell you how many times a week I
tell people, unfortunately, no, there's
[1:27:55] just nowhere here to live. On the
commercial front, I can't tell you how
[1:27:59] many times I tell people, you probably
can't afford that commercial rent in New
[1:28:02] Town. All of that means we're doing
something really well. We're a desirable
[1:28:07] community that people want to be in.
They want to be a part of. I live right
[1:28:11] now, um, sad to admit, in Pennington,
New Jersey, as I'm rehabbing a a 200-y
[1:28:16] old farmhouse and look forward to coming
back to New Town. But every day my car
[1:28:20] is in New Town. Everything I do is in
New Town. Work to gym to eat to you name
[1:28:25] it. So, um, and that's because it's the
perfect balance. And I think that's
[1:28:31] something Julia you mentioned about
striking the balance. I think the time
[1:28:35] that's been spent reviewing and the the
efforts of the experts. Um, I think you
[1:28:39] guys know your job obviously, but I
think I feel like myself as well that I
[1:28:43] would agree that I think we're in a
place where a lot of those things that
[1:28:46] come with progress that are
unfortunately challenges um have been
[1:28:51] met headon with this current plan. Um, I
don't think we'll ever have perfect.
[1:28:55] There is no such thing, but I like what
I see and I wanted to just share my
[1:29:00] support from my community here in New
Town. Thank you.
[1:29:03] » Thank you very much.
>> Is there anyone else who'd like to
[1:29:06] speak, please?
[1:29:15] Good evening. I'm Lisa Flmer. I'm the
executive director of Lower Bucks County
[1:29:19] Chamber of Commerce and we recently
moved into the stocking works um this
[1:29:24] past year and um we're very excited to
be a part of New Town Burrow uh not just
[1:29:30] for our membership but also for the
businesses that we represent and the
[1:29:35] burrow itself is well known for so many
various cultural activities in addition
[1:29:42] to the niche that you have of feeling
like a hometown town and what Jim has
[1:29:51] done and I've I've worked with Jim when
I served on the Middletown Township
[1:29:54] Board of Supervisors so in the early
2000s and he ran our Middletown Country
[1:30:00] Club. He doesn't do anything halfway.
He also ensures that he takes into
[1:30:07] consideration all of the stakeholders
and their needs and their requirements.
[1:30:14] Um so not just the municipalities but
also the businesses. You could see that
[1:30:19] from every single aspect of this plan
completely ditching the former plan to
[1:30:24] what he has created now. Taking into
account the hindrances um that would
[1:30:29] have you know befell the community but
also ensuring that what he is building
[1:30:36] what he is presenting to this community
blends with this community. It is
[1:30:42] aesthetically pleasing. It takes care of
your walkway along the creek to provide
[1:30:47] not only access to nature for the
residents there, but for those that come
[1:30:53] and have business in the community who
decide that they want to dine in the
[1:30:57] community in addition to the
entertainment that could reside at the
[1:31:02] pavilion.
I think one of the things that I enjoy
[1:31:06] most in my capacity is the number of
residents that will now be a part of
[1:31:13] your community that will then frequent
the commercial sector of your community.
[1:31:18] That only bodess well for the businesses
along State Street and throughout the
[1:31:23] burrow, but it also bodess well for
their future and their success, which
[1:31:29] then also adds to the value of this
community. this beautiful community that
[1:31:34] you continue to create, foster, and
ensure that for generations to come,
[1:31:41] they will know exactly the history and
legacy of New Town Burough, not only
[1:31:46] maintain it, but sustain it for its
legacy. So, thank you for your time this
[1:31:50] evening. I really hope that you consider
this plan in its entirety and bring this
[1:31:55] forth for not only the burough residents
but also the commercial sector and for
[1:32:00] the future of the burough. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Would anyone else
[1:32:06] like to speak? Please come up to the
podium.
[1:32:14] » Hello, my name is Excuse [clears throat]
me. My name is John Monahan. I live at
[1:32:18] 202 South State Street, so I would be
right across from this building. And I I
[1:32:25] just have to tell the board members how
how much better I think this plan is
[1:32:30] than the the plan that was in effect
when I purchased.
[1:32:36] I think the the buildings
architecturally the buff brick m u
[1:32:42] doesn't imitate but echoes the building
directly across state street on the
[1:32:48] corner of pen and also the first uh
national bank of new town building which
[1:32:54] you would see from these buildings and I
think the mixeduse idea sounded good 15
[1:33:02] or 20 years ago but really it would not
work in this location. And also, if I
[1:33:08] were a business, if I had a business on
on State or or Sycamore Street, I would
[1:33:14] just like, do I need the competition?
The answer to me would be no. But do I
[1:33:20] need customers? The answer would be yes.
And one reason I moved from Pipersville
[1:33:26] to this building was I wanted to be in a
place where I could walk to to the
[1:33:34] restaurants and the other businesses
that are right here. And I think you
[1:33:39] will find that uh as one of the uh
people stated, you're going to find a
[1:33:46] lot of people who are downsizing who
live in New Town or nearby and they go,
[1:33:50] "Yes, I want to I want this, but I don't
want to buy." So the rental, I think,
[1:33:55] also makes a better idea. You may get
younger people who are going to be
[1:34:00] renting as well. And there really isn't
that much rental in New Town Burrow. I
[1:34:05] go by, I see the Laroo building and a
few others in the small small rentals
[1:34:10] down the street down State Street at 440
State Street, but you don't see all that
[1:34:16] much more uh rental space. And also, I
think we need to move ahead on this. And
[1:34:23] one more thing is that the speaker who
was talking about the wild flowers,
[1:34:29] let's also keep in mind that the bank of
the new town creek is going to be
[1:34:34] improved. It's it's one of the few
places you'll be able to access. In
[1:34:39] fact, I think it's the only place you'll
be able to access uh and walk along New
[1:34:44] Town Creek and it'll be cleaned up. The
rusty shopping carts will be out and
[1:34:49] it'll be much nicer. So, I'm also
authorized to speak for the people in
[1:34:55] 202 who were unable to attend tonight
because they're away. And uh without
[1:35:01] exception, everybody is in favor of this
and would like to move forward as
[1:35:07] expeditiously as possible. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much.
[1:35:13] Anyone else, please?
[1:35:25] Hi, my name is uh Jim Wis, 2011 Penn
Street. Um, some of the other people
[1:35:31] already mentioned some of the things
that I wanted to talk about, but I've
[1:35:34] been involved with a lot of things in
the community, been around town as much
[1:35:37] as anybody doing various things and
working in the community way back when.
[1:35:42] We all love Allen and I was on a
committee with Allen probably in year
[1:35:45] 2000 where we talked about improving the
creek and the you know doing a creek
[1:35:50] walk and here we are 25 years later
we're still talking about doing
[1:35:55] improvements along the creek and an
asset that we have there that we're not
[1:35:59] using. In addition to that, I see five,
six empty buildings around town. I agree
[1:36:05] with everybody else that including more
retail down there is probably not the
[1:36:08] best
opportunity when we already have vacant
[1:36:12] things and and like the guy said before,
you need clients if you want to have
[1:36:16] retail and and people using those
things. So, I'm also in support of it.
[1:36:20] There's some things that I don't know if
it's going to be phased or not. maybe
[1:36:23] this isn't the time to bring it up, but
an important part to me also is that
[1:36:26] public space that's down along the
creek. And I just would like to ensure
[1:36:31] that that gets built as part of if there
is any phasing and I don't know if
[1:36:34] there's any phasing or not that that is
one of the first phases that's done
[1:36:38] because I also think that's an big draw
to to everybody and importance to
[1:36:42] everybody. So those couple things I'm in
support traffic is always going to be an
[1:36:47] issue. You're never going to make
everybody happy like somebody else said,
[1:36:50] but we need a spark in this town to get
some things rolling in a better
[1:36:54] direction and uh I think this will help.
>> Thanks.
[1:36:57] » Thank you very much.
Anyone else?
[1:37:01] Okay, thank you gentlemen very much.
>> Thank you.
[1:37:10] » Okay, so we're going to move on to
certificates of appropriateness. Chris,
[1:37:16] » thank you.
If it's okay with uh our solicitor and
[1:37:20] council, I'd like to group the first
three together. They're all going to be
[1:37:25] proposed for um approval.
>> Is that all right?
[1:37:30] » Y.
So I would uh move to follow the
[1:37:34] recommendations of the historical
architectural review board and direct
[1:37:38] the president of council to sign the
following certificates of
[1:37:40] appropriateness thereby approving the
historical appropriateness of the
[1:37:45] applications with final approval by the
code enforcement officer. The first
[1:37:49] application is COA 2026-9.
It's 159 North State Street and the
[1:37:55] applicant is Mike Hutchinson. The
applicant seeks a certificate of
[1:37:59] appropriateness for the demolition of an
existing shed addition on the back of
[1:38:04] the house and an early 20th century shed
at the rear of the property.
[1:38:09] [snorts] Harb recommended approving the
application for demolition, noting that
[1:38:13] neither the shed addition nor the rear
shed has architectural nor historic
[1:38:19] significance.
[1:38:22] Our second application is COA 2026-6
and 20267.
[1:38:30] This is for 105 and 107 North Chancellor
Street. Our applicants are Christopher
[1:38:36] Grimes and Charles and Barbara Lewis.
The applicant seeks a certificate of
[1:38:41] appropriateness for repairs to the
shared front porch of this twin house.
[1:38:47] Again, that's both halves of the twin
house. Harb recommended approving both
[1:38:51] applications for 105 and 107 North
Chancellor Street with the following
[1:38:56] changes.
The main three posts will be repaired
[1:39:00] using Dutchman or epoxy. The railing
will be salvaged if possible or replaced
[1:39:07] in exact kind in terms of proportion and
detailing. The ballusters will be
[1:39:13] salvaged. Necessary new ballasters will
be turned to match the existing.
[1:39:18] And third, we have COA 2026-8.
This is 110 East Center Avenue. And this
[1:39:26] applicant is Peggy and Doug Levvin. The
applicant seeks to seeks a certificate
[1:39:30] of appropriateness for alterations to
the rear porch. Harb recommended
[1:39:35] approving the application as presented.
>> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
[1:39:39] second?
>> Second.
[1:39:42] » Thank you. Any comments or questions
from council on these COAs?
[1:39:48] Okay. I know I asked this earlier, but
are any of the applicants present?
[1:39:53] Any public comment on these COAs?
All those in favor?
[1:39:58] » I
>> I
[1:39:59] » I.
>> Any nays? Motion passes.
[1:40:04] » Okay. Now, uh I move to follow the
recommendation of the historic
[1:40:09] architecture review board and deny the
following certific certificate of
[1:40:13] appropriateness. This is COA 2026-00005
[1:40:19] for 17 North State Street. The
applicants are Caroline and Janine El
[1:40:26] Classen Trust.
The applicants seek a certificate of
[1:40:30] appropriateness for installation of a
fence. Harb recommended denying the
[1:40:35] application, emphasizing that if the PVC
fence had become had come before HARB
[1:40:42] before its construction, it would have
been denied.
[1:40:47] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[1:40:50] » Second.
>> Thank you. Any comments or questions
[1:40:52] from council on this motion?
>> Is the applicant present?
[1:40:57] Any public comment? All those in favor?
I
[1:41:01] » I any
>> any nays? Motion passes.
[1:41:07] » Okay. Seeing as we are missing our dear
Chief Sabbath, um we'll move on to the
[1:41:10] mayor's report who we are also missing.
Um so I would just uh say that we have
[1:41:16] two events on here that we will make
motions for tonight to um approve. Um so
[1:41:22] I would entertain a motion for Arbor
Day.
[1:41:26] I'll make a motion to approve Arbor Day
sponsored by the recreation board on
[1:41:31] Friday, April 17, 2026 from 9:00 am to
11:30 a.m. at Brian S. Greg Park. Rain
[1:41:38] date is April 24th, 2026.
>> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
[1:41:42] second?
>> Second.
[1:41:44] » Thank you. Any comments or questions
from councel?
[1:41:47] Any public comment?
All those in favor?
[1:41:51] » I.
>> Any nays? Motion passes. Uh, I'd
[1:41:56] entertain a motion for the Memorial Day
parade.
[1:41:59] » I'll make a motion to approve the
Memorial Day parade sponsored by the
[1:42:02] American Legion Morell Smith Post 440 on
Monday, May 25th, 2026, 9:00 a.m. to
[1:42:09] 11:30 a.m. along a designated parade
route. No rain date.
[1:42:14] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[1:42:16] » Second.
>> Thank you. Any comments or questions
[1:42:18] from councel?
Any public comment?
[1:42:23] All those in favor?
>> I
[1:42:25] » I
>> I
[1:42:26] » Any nays? Motion passes. Now, there's an
additional uh item under uh the mayor's
[1:42:32] report. Uh but I don't know what Tara
was planning on saying about it. It's
[1:42:36] just about uh that Saturday, August 8th
will be New Town celebrates America's
[1:42:40] 250th. Um we'll add this to the next
agenda so she can give us more detail
[1:42:45] about that.
[1:42:49] » Okay, Greg. Moving on to the solicitor's
report.
[1:42:51] » Great. Uh the first thing I'm going to
take up under the solicitor's report are
[1:42:54] actually moving from the president's
report up to the solicitor's report
[1:42:57] which is an update on the fire services
agreement. As council may be aware um
[1:43:02] the township did approve on their end a
uh I guess our offer uh for the amount
[1:43:10] to enter back into a fire services
agreement with the township at their
[1:43:14] previous meeting. We received a draft
agreement after the work session uh last
[1:43:19] week. Um and so that's in review. We're
asking for a little bit more
[1:43:22] information. There was some
documentation missing from the
[1:43:25] transmission that we got. And so that's
under review and we'll be bringing that
[1:43:28] to council for review and discussion
during the April and and and hopeful
[1:43:33] approval uh during the April session. So
that's just an update on that. Um then
[1:43:38] next item on the solicitor's report is
the continued appeal hearing for 239
[1:43:43] Court Street, which is a Harve appeal.
Are the deacons present? You want to
[1:43:47] come up? We'll we'll continue where we
left off. As a reminder for the board,
[1:43:52] we looked at this um at a previous
meeting. Um this is regarding a
[1:43:57] retaining wall at 239 Court Street um
that uh was erected prior to receiving
[1:44:04] any approvals. Um at the last meeting,
council elected to remand uh the
[1:44:13] application to HARB uh for a
recommendation on uh what they would
[1:44:18] recommend to be placed there uh had uh
it gone through the normal review
[1:44:23] process to inform council's decision in
this appeal. Um so HARB did take it up
[1:44:29] at their meeting on the 25th of
February. Uh, and the minutes reflect
[1:44:34] the um following statement. And I'll
just read that in as we as we um
[1:44:42] did at the last one. Uh Harb recommends
a well the it was stated that the if the
[1:44:48] application had come before the wall as
built, it would have been denied. Harb
[1:44:53] recommends a simpler, more appropriate
stone wall. The stone shouldn't be laid
[1:44:58] in an ashlar pattern uh but rather more
closely match the irregular and roughly
[1:45:03] dressed stone of the house's foundation.
The cap should be less formal than the
[1:45:08] existing rectangular cut blue stone top.
A more appropriate stone cap should be
[1:45:14] of the same stone as the wall. Um and so
the ultimate was that they would they
[1:45:20] denied it still but made those
recommendations for council's benefit in
[1:45:24] this hearing. So, as we reconvene now,
um, as the deacons have come forward,
[1:45:30] um, I don't know if if the deans would
have anything, uh, that they would like
[1:45:35] to offer council at this time based on
that recommendation made by HARB as to
[1:45:39] where you are in the process or we can
open it back up to uh, council's
[1:45:44] discussion, but I would give the first
opportunity to begin.
[1:45:47] » No, I mean, I I don't, as I said before,
I don't um, you know, first of all, we
[1:45:52] obviously didn't try to do anything
sneaky. There's a thousand cars drive by
[1:45:56] our our house every day on on Court
Street. So, we didn't get a permit. We
[1:46:01] screwed it up. Um, you know, as I
mentioned before, and I don't you know,
[1:46:06] you guys are here long enough, but we've
we stole the idea off the house on
[1:46:11] Washington Street. It's a brick house.
Um, their stone is very similar to ours.
[1:46:16] I don't pretend to know the names of the
stones and all that stuff, but but their
[1:46:20] stone is very, very similar to ours. As
I said to you guys before, that's where
[1:46:24] I got the idea or my wife and I got the
idea. The other thing is there's it was
[1:46:29] mentioned that the stone doesn't match
the stone of the foundation of the
[1:46:34] house, but the home across um from the
funeral home has a similar wall. It's
[1:46:42] not it's different. So, I'm not I'm not
acting like it's exactly the same, but
[1:46:46] it certainly doesn't match the
foundation of theirs. So again, we're
[1:46:50] not, you know, we're not trying to do
anything to be sneaky. If we owe money
[1:46:55] for the permit, that's fine. You know,
if whatever we're not we're not trying
[1:46:59] to be difficult, but I feel like we got
a tennis match going on. I'm going back
[1:47:03] and forth, you know. Um I think it looks
nice. We've gotten a lot of compliments,
[1:47:09] you know. Um I mean, I don't know what
else to say. I don't, as I said, I I
[1:47:14] don't think we've uh I don't think the
top piece looks any different than
[1:47:18] multiple homes in the area. So, I don't
really understand that. But again, we're
[1:47:23] not we're not trying to be difficult.
We're easy to get along with, but I
[1:47:27] mean, at some point, I mean, I I think
we tried to do the right thing. The
[1:47:31] house looks nicer, I think. Again, I'm
not totally objective, I guess, but you
[1:47:35] know, it just I feel like we're being a
little nitpicky to be truthful with you,
[1:47:39] but and I'm not trying to be difficult.
We'll do whatever we got to do. I'm not
[1:47:43] it just as I say I think there's other
homes in the area that look exactly the
[1:47:47] same who are very very similar that
apparently didn't get get their hands
[1:47:52] slapped. Make a long story short.
>> Thank you Mr. Deacon. council, we'll
[1:47:56] open it back up to I mean, we we were
already in discussion and certainly you
[1:48:00] can ask any additional questions of the
deans related to this in light of the
[1:48:04] recommendation or or I know it's a
recommendation the evaluation made by
[1:48:10] HARB.
[1:48:13] » Oh, well I I went to look at your wall
again this weekend. Um
[1:48:19] I
there are there are a number of things
[1:48:22] going on here. I would agree with you
that you know you did it's similar to
[1:48:27] other walls in town and I see where you
got the idea actually went and looked at
[1:48:30] those walls and you are correct their
walls did not match their foundations at
[1:48:34] all either. Um and har I think Harvest
being inconsistent or maybe they're
[1:48:41] being consistent in their
inconsistencies because they have
[1:48:44] approved walls. They have told other
property owners don't make your wall
[1:48:50] look like your foundation. I've heard
multiple times when people have come to
[1:48:54] put walls in their backyard and said,
"Oh, we picked this stone to look just
[1:48:58] like our house." And the response from
Harb was, "No, make it look different."
[1:49:03] And and then it is true. There are
houses on Washington Avenue that have
[1:49:07] stone walls that are recent that were
approved that don't reflect the
[1:49:11] foundation at all. They're granite and
their houses are are um the brown
[1:49:15] sandstone Bucks County stone. Um, your
wall
[1:49:21] has a much has a modern look to it and
I'm wondering if you would be willing to
[1:49:27] consider replacing just the blue stone
top with a rougher stone that matches
[1:49:33] the stone of the rest of the wall. I
think that might soften the look and
[1:49:38] might um,
obviously it's not going to match your
[1:49:42] foundation and I don't I don't I
wouldn't say that it needs to. I would
[1:49:46] say that it might take away from the
more modern aspect of that wall compared
[1:49:51] to the age of your house.
>> Yeah. I mean, we'll certainly take a
[1:49:54] look at it. As I said, we're not
>> No, I get along with I'm more than happy
[1:49:58] to have
>> Do you want I'm wondering if is there
[1:50:00] any kind of photo we could get of what
you're talking about because that
[1:50:03] definitely seems
>> Well, rather that what you have is a is
[1:50:05] a modern blue stone which is very
popular right now. The top the top
[1:50:10] piece.
>> Okay. and and Harb actually did say this
[1:50:13] that they were suggesting that a more
appropriate stone cap would be of the
[1:50:17] same stone as the wall. So you have uh
stone in the the you know your your
[1:50:21] vertical surface is is [snorts]
like it was a a concrete block wall that
[1:50:27] had a laminate put on right. So the the
kind of stone that the front of the wall
[1:50:31] is, if you could get you can go to a
quarry and get some stone pieces to put
[1:50:36] on the top of the wall instead of the
blue stone cap that might soften it
[1:50:41] better. And then
>> we're happy to we're happy to take a
[1:50:44] look at it and most likely do that. I'm
said I'm not recommendation.
[1:50:47] » Yeah. I No, I I I I understand your
situation. I I
[1:50:52] » Yeah, I get it. Yeah. [snorts]
>> I just don't And we're happy to do it.
[1:50:57] » Yeah. said, "We're going to do whatever
you whatever."
[1:51:00] » Right. So, if you were just
>> don't understand how there's multiple
[1:51:03] homes that have the same top. And again,
I don't I don't even care what it cost
[1:51:06] us.
>> We'll do it. Get it done. I just don't
[1:51:08] understand as you're saying earlier,
which I appreciate you taking the time
[1:51:11] to go look at the homes. Um, you know,
but
[1:51:15] » there's so many others that are the same
is that's all I'm confused about. But
[1:51:19] we're happy to do that. No problem at
all.
[1:51:22] » I do have a question though. So, we need
to get a we probably should go before
[1:51:25] ARB again. No, they would
>> um I don't know. In the past, people
[1:51:31] have asked harb to like help them pick
the stone, but not necessarily go back
[1:51:35] through the whole process again.
>> It would be up for council. There's
[1:51:38] there would since they've appealed from
the har. We're in a harb appeal here and
[1:51:42] council ultimately has the the say on
what gets installed or not. So, I think
[1:51:48] it would be appropriate if council wants
to determine
[1:51:51] » what it wants to do. It doesn't have to.
I mean you can certain you can certainly
[1:51:55] send them back to harb like you just did
but there is no requirement whatsoever
[1:51:59] that they need to go back to harve where
they are in this process.
[1:52:03] » We might be able to get some advice from
harb from the consultant to say what
[1:52:07] would be the best stone to do this or
what should it look like or how should
[1:52:10] it be but not go through the whole har
coa process. I don't we don't want to go
[1:52:15] through another month of this.
[laughter]
[1:52:22] Um, hello. Um, may I make a
recommendation?
[1:52:25] » Yeah, go ahead, Josh.
>> Right.
[1:52:28] » Um, so, uh, in the past we've had folks
bring in materials that they were in
[1:52:33] question to our work session and let us
take a look at those. Could that be a
[1:52:38] possible solution to go ahead and bring
in the material uh for the the cap of
[1:52:44] the wall as Julia suggested suggested
and then council can make a decision
[1:52:50] rather than because Harve's
recommendation was that it wouldn't be
[1:52:54] approved and then they sent it back to
be um uh they would they said that they
[1:52:59] would want it to look like the
foundation and we're kind of in
[1:53:01] disagreement over that it sounds like
and I appreciate Julia you bringing that
[1:53:05] to all of our attention. about the
history of that that really adds a lot
[1:53:09] of context. So I would recommend they
select a material that looks that would
[1:53:15] that could be appropriate to match what
you were talking about Julia and then
[1:53:19] bring that to a work session where we
can evaluate it and approve it.
[1:53:24] » That that's absolutely an option.
>> Yeah.
[1:53:29] » Yeah.
>> Yes.
[1:53:30] » So first of all, sorry for keeping you
in purgatory over this.
[1:53:33] » No, we're all good. This was my biggest
problem. the the reason you're in
[1:53:36] purgatory is because we're trying to be
thoughtful and and not not jump to
[1:53:42] conclusions uh because of the situation.
Um and nobody's sent you a uh violation
[1:53:48] notice or anything like that. We'll get
through it. Okay.
[1:53:50] » No, it's all good. I'm not
>> um that's the main thing I wanted to say
[1:53:54] with respect to uh Julia's suggestion.
Um, I just want to mention that, um,
[1:54:01] having like rough stone on top is may or
may not be an easy thing to do to cap a,
[1:54:09] uh, to cap a block wall with. Uh, and to
me, the more important piece is that
[1:54:15] these the stone itself in color and
texture is able to match um match the uh
[1:54:23] the wall stone. um and not so much that
it's that's it's uh fully rough or
[1:54:28] that's there's a whole bunch of
different pieces, but um other than
[1:54:32] that, I'm open to I'm open to
suggestion. I'm open to a practical
[1:54:37] solution.
>> Thank you. Is there is there a home?
[1:54:42] Again, I'm not expecting somebody to
give us an address off the top of your
[1:54:45] head, but if there's if there's a home
we can go look at for what you're
[1:54:50] requesting,
>> you know, I'm happy to do that. Well,
[1:54:53] [laughter] I I I just do want to make
the point because you've mentioned it a
[1:54:56] few times when when Harborviews these
kinds of things, they're not comparing
[1:55:00] it to any other house. Every house is
>> bas is judged by itself. It's not So
[1:55:07] something that could be appropriate for
a house on Washington Avenue that was
[1:55:11] built 100 years after yours might not be
appropriate for yours. That's how Harb
[1:55:16] reviews things. So, I just wanted to
point that out. But that doesn't mean
[1:55:20] there's not another house in town that
has the kind of stone uh that Julia is
[1:55:24] referencing. So,
>> we're not super creative. We like to
[1:55:27] have
>> Well, who did this wall? Did you work
[1:55:29] with the mason?
>> Our landscaper that we've used for 25
[1:55:33] years.
>> So, he laid the stone and everything.
[1:55:36] » He did everything. [clears throat]
>> Yeah. Um you might talk to him if he's
[1:55:38] got some ideas. You might bring this
back to them and him and say, "Well,
[1:55:42] what would you suggest that's is not as
>> um modern."
[1:55:47] » Okay. and that would blend better and he
might be able to say, "Oh, yeah, I did
[1:55:51] this for so and so." and be able to send
you that way. If that doesn't work, I'm
[1:55:54] sure we can find some resources for you.
>> Okay.
[1:55:57] » Or Harb could actually
>> and and and likely like if he has a
[1:56:00] couple suggestions, a couple samples
that council could review, um that
[1:56:04] probably be better.
>> Who would we reach out to? Is it Anna
[1:56:09] » when we have um
>> you can reach out to Craig?
[1:56:11] » Craig.
>> Okay.
[1:56:12] » Yeah. Our our April work session is
>> the 8th. It's a week later.
[1:56:19] » Wednesday, April 8th is when we'd have
the opportunity to review them.
[1:56:23] » Okay. Um, no, that's perfect. And and I
do I appreciate you um
[1:56:27] » the suggestions we do
>> trying to work with us. I'm not um
[1:56:31] » and we promise we will always get for
every other thing we do.
[1:56:34] » I appreciate you working. We'll figure
>> if that's if that's the direction of
[1:56:38] council. We don't have to do a any
formal motion. I would just say that
[1:56:42] we'll stand we'll we'll recess this
hearing until the April 8th meeting and
[1:56:47] that the direction of the deans is to uh
source some samples for a cap to the
[1:56:53] wall and if you can share them and if
you are able to you can also coordinate
[1:56:58] with Craig to share them in advance but
it will be discussed and we'll resume
[1:57:02] this conversation at the April 8th work
session with a with an agenda item for
[1:57:06] resolution to this as well
>> potentially. That's perfect. Is it is it
[1:57:11] fair to say that that just to keep this
in mind that um and picking up on
[1:57:15] Julia's comments, number one, that um uh
we don't like the blue stone in the
[1:57:20] modern look, right? So, we're looking
for something that's a perhaps more uh
[1:57:24] of a match to the other stone that's on
the wall. Is that what you're saying?
[1:57:29] » And secondly,
ideally a little bit more rough hune if
[1:57:33] possible. Again, matching matching the
wall. That's uh
[1:57:37] » all on the top piece.
>> That's what we're suggesting. you you
[1:57:40] take a look at.
>> That's perfect.
[1:57:43] » Okay. Thank you very much.
>> Thank you. Have a good night.
[1:57:46] » Thank you.
>> You too.
[1:57:48] » Uh the next item on the
[1:57:53] » No, because there's no motion. It was a
hearing.
[1:57:59] The next item on the uh under the
solicitor's report is um the
[1:58:05] consideration of a handicap parking
space uh with conditions at 446
[1:58:09] Washington Avenue. Um this was provided
as a resolution for council uh numbered
[1:58:15] 3-10-2026.
[1:58:19] Um this would establish a reserved
parking space um with conditions in
[1:58:24] front of 446 Washington Avenue. Um and
this is established pursuant to um
[1:58:30] section 535-32E
of of the code of burrow of new town. Um
[1:58:38] the resolution re uh I won't read it. Uh
the all the whereas clauses but the the
[1:58:45] conditions that the resolution
establishes is that the reserved parking
[1:58:48] space is established in front of 446
Washington Avenue. that the reserved
[1:58:52] parking spaces shall be demarcated
within the cartway of Washington Avenue
[1:58:56] in front of 446 Washington in an
appropriate location determined by the
[1:59:01] burrow. The burough shall issue a permit
to Mallerie Newman for her exclusive use
[1:59:05] of the reserved parking space without
fee required. The reserve parking space
[1:59:09] shall include a sign with such signage
restricting use of the parking space
[1:59:13] solely and exclusively to the permit
holder. The Burrow of New Town shall
[1:59:17] delineate the reserve parking space with
visible lit linage following the size
[1:59:23] and line spacing of section 486-21E
of the code of B burrow of New Town and
[1:59:29] that the reserved parking space and
permit shall be available to the permit
[1:59:32] holder for so long as the permit holder
resides at 446 Washington Avenue or no
[1:59:37] longer holds a handicap placard or
license plate.
[1:59:41] Thank you. So to begin discussion, I
would entertain a motion from council.
[1:59:52] » So you want to do the motion
>> for the for the parking space? Yes. And
[1:59:55] then we will discuss. Yeah.
>> Like to make a motion to approve a
[1:59:59] reserved handicap parking space with
conditions for 446 Washington Avenue.
[2:00:06] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[2:00:08] » Second.
>> Thank you. Okay. Okay, now we can open
[2:00:10] it up to comments or questions from
council.
[2:00:16] » I have one I actually have two
questions. Um I'm in favor of this
[2:00:20] motion, but I just I want to clarify
some things. Um Michelle, this is a
[2:00:24] state road. Um are there any special
requirements that um is are we able to
[2:00:32] provide this parking space without any
um permitting from PENDOT?
[2:00:38] » That's it.
That's a good question. You may need to
[2:00:42] um get a permit from Pendot at least for
the signage. That's something that we
[2:00:47] could look into for you.
>> Okay. So, having the spot is not the
[2:00:50] problem, it's the sign. It may be both.
>> Okay. Okay. Um my second question is um
[2:00:57] knowing the um
[2:01:02] I don't know if the word I want to use
the the scarcity of parking at that end
[2:01:05] of of the block and given the number of
houses that don't have off- streetet
[2:01:10] parking that are in the neighborhood of
this particular address. I'm wondering
[2:01:14] if if the Newmans would be willing,
although I don't want to put this into a
[2:01:18] motion. I'm just asking since I see that
um [snorts] that Matt is at the podium.
[2:01:23] Um if if Mallalerie knows she's going to
be away for an extended period of time,
[2:01:28] like a week or a vacation or something,
would there be would you be willing to
[2:01:34] um make that spot available to others?
[2:01:40] » I'm not quite sure if I'm being directly
addressed because I really being invited
[2:01:46] up here. I just kind of showed up. Um,
yes. I mean, if if if we know that we're
[2:01:52] going to be gone for a month for or, you
know, a week for a vacation, absolutely
[2:01:56] anybody can use that spot. This is just
solely so that Mal has the ability to
[2:01:59] park in front of her spot when it's
she's having a bad day and, you know,
[2:02:04] she needs to be close when there's
groceries and I'm not home. So yeah, if
[2:02:09] I mean we would absolutely work with the
neighbors if if that's something you
[2:02:13] know there's generally
oa there have been occasions where you
[2:02:19] know random people will park there but
it's generally just our our local
[2:02:22] neighbors and we're happy to work with
them.
[2:02:24] » Okay. Thanks.
>> And that would also be an enforcement
[2:02:27] issue. So I guess the Newman's could
just alert
[2:02:30] » Sabbath
>> put a bag over the sign
[2:02:32] » just alert chief Sabbath that this to
not enforce the the permit you know.
[2:02:37] Okay.
>> During that time,
[2:02:40] » so should we um make this uh subject to
uh pendot approval? Is that what we're
[2:02:47] saying?
>> If required. If required.
[2:02:51] » Excuse me.
>> To the extent required. Yeah.
[2:02:52] » Hi.
>> Go ahead, Josh.
[2:02:55] » I have a question. Um so in regards to
the signage, one of our conversations
[2:02:59] that we've had as council, will there be
any kind of painting of lines or
[2:03:03] anything to mark the location? And if
so, and if PINDOT approves that, how do
[2:03:08] you um then I I I hear the question
about working with neighbors when
[2:03:13] they're not home, but that seems like a
whole another issue of how do you say,
[2:03:18] well, those lines don't matter right
now. Just throwing that out there. Any
[2:03:22] comments on that from U Michelle or
Greg? I think Josh I I think as I'm u
[2:03:30] mentioned I think it would the lines not
mattering would be an enforcement issue
[2:03:36] uh for the for the police department. Um
they're they're the ones who are going
[2:03:40] to be going around and saying there's a
there's a car without a permit parked in
[2:03:43] a permit spot or or inappropriately
parked in half the spot. So if there's a
[2:03:47] if there's a time that the Newmans would
not be utilizing the spot and they can
[2:03:52] advise the the police department of
such, they could not enforce it at that
[2:03:57] time. Um there there's not there's not a
another party that would be enforcing
[2:04:04] that parking regulation other than the
police department. And the and the
[2:04:08] resolution does does state that linage
will be painted on the on the roadway to
[2:04:15] to allow an appropriate amount of room
for a car to park there so that it
[2:04:20] wouldn't be
uh impossible for Miss Newman to
[2:04:25] actually utilize the spot based on other
cars being parked on the block.
[2:04:31] » Does that answer your question?
>> I think I think so. Yes.
[2:04:37] So, um, we want to amend the motion to
be contingent upon meeting the
[2:04:41] requirements of PENDOT should there be
any.
[2:04:46] » So,
>> I think I think we we I think you would
[2:04:49] have to understand that we don't really
have a choice in that in that matter
[2:04:53] that PENDOT would have to ultimately
approve.
[2:04:56] » Yeah, I I fully understand that we can't
skirt the overarching laws that we live
[2:05:03] under.
>> [laughter]
[2:05:06] » So, I guess you can just say as amended.
>> Uh, as amended.
[2:05:12] » Second.
>> Second.
[2:05:13] » Okay. Any additional comments or
questions from council on this?
[2:05:18] Any public comment?
All those in favor?
[2:05:22] » I
>> I.
[2:05:24] » Any nays? Motion passes.
[2:05:29] Um and the last item on the solicitor's
report is regarding a pillar agreement
[2:05:34] um with the Newman's for an EV charging
post in the right of way in front of 446
[2:05:38] Washington Avenue. Um there was some
documentation that was supplied to
[2:05:44] council on the location uh and the uh
schematics of the uh um corresponding uh
[2:05:53] electrical work uh to the extent that it
was available now um with the
[2:05:58] understanding as I think Mr. Dr. Newman
understands that anything that would be
[2:06:01] installed would have to be uh under a
permit issued by the burrow, inspected
[2:06:06] and compliant with the the burrow's
electrical code and the NEC. Um so that
[2:06:11] that has been presented. We do not have
a a draft of any pillar agreement, but I
[2:06:16] think we would we would ask that if
council is inclined to approve this
[2:06:21] tonight. It's more so related to whether
the pillar can be related there and we
[2:06:25] would then work on uh and with Mr.
Newman and his council on getting a
[2:06:31] pillar agreement together that would
satisfy any requirements that would be
[2:06:36] uh dictated by council.
>> So we're looking for a motion to open
[2:06:41] discussion.
[2:06:45] So, this is just to open the discussion,
>> correct? Just like we do every other.
[2:06:49] [laughter]
>> Everyone's different. I'd like to make a
[2:06:51] motion to approve a pillar agreement
with Matthew Newman for an EV charging
[2:06:56] post in the right of way in the front of
446 Washington Avenue.
[2:07:00] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[2:07:03] » Second.
>> Thank you. Um I'll open it up to
[2:07:05] comments and questions from council.
>> Question number one to Michelle. This is
[2:07:10] a state road. Do we have to get a home a
highway opening permit or other kinds of
[2:07:16] permits from PENDOT to even consider
this
[2:07:19] » because it's in the rightway is
>> in the in the rightway of a state road.
[2:07:25] » You may.
[laughter]
[2:07:29] » Yes. Yes, you may.
>> Um my
[2:07:34] » Would that be the responsibility of of
the burrow as it's in the right of way
[2:07:37] or the responsibility of the property
owner?
[2:07:39] » Property owner.
So my second comment is that there has
[2:07:44] been a tremendous amount of new
information that's come within the last
[2:07:47] 24 hours. The um proposed design of the
post, the the actual charger being
[2:07:54] selected, the way the wiring is done,
comments, we just at 3:00 this afternoon
[2:08:00] got a response from um Barry Iset
regarding um the electrical code and
[2:08:06] what he would need to be looking for.
And it's very complicated. there's a lot
[2:08:09] of stuff. Um so, um I would say we're
not ready to consider a pillar agreement
[2:08:14] at this time. Um if it is going to be
referencing a particular design or uh or
[2:08:22] whatever. I'm so I'm I'm trying to
decide whether
[2:08:26] the ability to
consider a pillar agreement, which is
[2:08:33] saying, "Yeah, we're in favor of a
pillar agreement." and all of the the um
[2:08:38] who's responsible for what and who's uh
and all of the second page of that o
[2:08:43] that other draft that was that you had
previously given us Greg whether um but
[2:08:48] eliminating any reference to any
particular design or anything because
[2:08:52] that would have to be taken care of
separately that would be something that
[2:08:56] I might consider but if it's going to
have any kind of direct indication of
[2:09:01] what we are approving we don't have
nearly enough time to review the
[2:09:05] information we've received to make sure
that we know what's being proposed
[2:09:10] before we actually say okay.
>> I I think the the primary purpose of the
[2:09:15] pillar agreement is to approve the
location of the the fixture that would
[2:09:20] that would be erected in the right of
way. um any any [snorts]
[2:09:26] electrical standards, the the charger,
however that would uh comply with the
[2:09:32] burrow's existing code would be subject
to the permit that would have to be
[2:09:36] pulled. Um, so whether it's the the
cable running under underground, the uh
[2:09:42] charger that's installed, the um
how it's wired, uh would all be subject
[2:09:49] to the review of that permit, subject,
you know, under our existing uh
[2:09:53] electrical code. Um I think that there
are are some things that council could
[2:09:58] consider as part of this that were in
that uh original agreement um like uh it
[2:10:03] being locked or not available for public
use. The
[2:10:07] And I know that there was some
information that this one can't be
[2:10:09] physically locked but not available for
public use. That could be a condition of
[2:10:13] the existence of this pillar in the
right of way um that could be separated
[2:10:18] off from the
uh technical specifications.
[2:10:24] Well, to a certain extent I I disagree
because the um the pillar as it's
[2:10:30] currently being depicted in the latest
picture that we got is basically a post
[2:10:36] with a charger hanging on it and if I'm
interpreting it correctly, a 25 foot
[2:10:42] charging cable
wrapped around and hanging off a hook on
[2:10:47] the side of it.
>> [snorts]
[2:10:49] » So, if that's what we're looking at
right now, then um I'm not in a in a
[2:10:54] position to support that. We were
previously told this was something that
[2:10:58] was going to hide something. That's what
went to harm. There's too many things
[2:11:02] that are out there and keep changing
like hourly. So, um, I would suggest
[2:11:07] that we not we that that we can't have
an agreement that in any way, shape, or
[2:11:14] form is approving what's actually going
to get put there. But then the second
[2:11:19] half of that is when we've had pillar
agreements come before council before,
[2:11:23] it's to say, I want to put this ballard
or this pillar in the rightway in front
[2:11:28] of my house. It looks like this. And
council says, okay, it looks like that.
[2:11:32] That's what we're going to allow.
Therefore, we will write this agreement.
[2:11:36] So, you see where I'm stuck. I do
>> in the middle of this.
[2:11:39] » I do. And I think Mr. Newman may be able
to answer some of those questions, if
[2:11:43] not all of them. But I I I'm I'm not
capable of answering them. I looked at
[2:11:48] the same uh materials that that were
forwarded to council.
[2:11:52] » So, I I have too many questions. So, um
that that's where I am on this one.
[2:12:00] I I just I guess from a solicitor's
perspective in in the eventual
[2:12:05] consideration of a pillar agreement, if
that's council's choice for this, then
[2:12:10] uh
I guess I would ask for council's
[2:12:15] direction on when we can work on
answering those questions so that uh
[2:12:22] we we can move move this forward if
council so desires. Um whether that's
[2:12:27] tonight with Mr. Newman or or in some
other other form. Uh that's I think that
[2:12:35] direction is necessary so that we're not
in uh we're not back here in a meeting
[2:12:39] and still have unanswered questions.
That that's my concern
[2:12:42] » for sure. So based on all of this
documentation that's gone back and forth
[2:12:46] and and the uh opinions weighed one way
or another on all different things, um
[2:12:52] it would seem to me that a more detailed
um and I would say quote unquote final
[2:13:02] um design is presented to us. The one we
just got was not even 24 hours old and
[2:13:08] it's completely different in terms of
components and how things are arranged
[2:13:12] and and and so on.
So we don't have that. Um just
[2:13:23] could I I have a question.
>> Yeah.
[2:13:28] » Um so would could and and this also is a
question for Greg. Could we not um uh
[2:13:34] approve the pillar agreement contingent
upon it meeting the electrical code and
[2:13:39] standards that of which I'm not as aware
of but our our permitting office and and
[2:13:45] code inspectors are. Um, could we do
something like that which would give
[2:13:50] them the ability to move forward in good
faith and then also to for the Newmans
[2:13:55] to work probably a little bit more
closely with the permitting office and
[2:14:00] um and their recommendations to make
sure that this is moving in the right
[2:14:04] direction.
>> Josh, I I it's certainly feasible to uh
[2:14:09] approve a pillar agreement subject to
the that type of condition. Um, I will I
[2:14:13] will say I agree with with Julia that
council needs to um as if you're
[2:14:20] approving the pillar agreement then
council has to be comfortable with the
[2:14:23] the fixture that's going to be erected.
Uh I don't I I I'm agree that it can be
[2:14:28] contingent whether the the inards and
the the electricity of it can be
[2:14:33] conditional based on the approval of a
permit by the and working with the code
[2:14:36] office. Um, but the actual fixture and I
would venture to say the the charger
[2:14:41] that's mounted there as well is part of
what you're con you're considering when
[2:14:45] you're approving the pillar agreement.
So I I council does have to feel
[2:14:49] comfortable with that information. Um, I
think that there's been over the course
[2:14:53] of this I think there's been three
different things that council has seen.
[2:14:57] We started with a a post I think with a
charger on it. There was a secondary
[2:15:02] scheme uh from uh that you saw recently
that that it appeared to be hidden. The
[2:15:08] most recent one, as Julia mentioned,
shows a a mounted charging box. Again, I
[2:15:13] think albeit smaller in size than any
one that than the previous version of a
[2:15:17] mounted charging box, but yes, council
has to be comfortable with the post uh
[2:15:22] general the general location of the post
and and any uh impertinances on that
[2:15:27] post. uh but it could absolutely be
contingent on the technical electrical
[2:15:32] aspects of it being approved by the code
office and those with that technical
[2:15:37] expertise.
>> Um I have a question for you Matt. Um
[2:15:42] the the latest plan that we just got
yesterday that is different than the
[2:15:46] original one. Um,
was the original one an actual like
[2:15:51] portable plug-in cord that you could
have un unplugged and put in your car
[2:15:57] when not charging?
>> That uh that was never the intent. Uh
[2:16:02] I'll be quite honest. Um I was uh a
little bit uh expeditious with that
[2:16:08] first version. I was just trying to put
something together uh per uh in order to
[2:16:13] provide some kind of visual impact so
that council could understand what we're
[2:16:18] looking for the location of it in reg uh
respon or regards to the the rightway
[2:16:24] and where the parking spot would be. Um
I had not gone through the detailed
[2:16:28] electrical engineering necessary uh and
mechanical engineering necessary in
[2:16:33] order to to do that. Um that is what led
me to version two which is what was
[2:16:39] presented to harb where everything was
kind of hidden. Um I was running under
[2:16:44] an assumption that that could be a
hardwired system. Uh when I again got
[2:16:50] into the details there is no provision
to hardwire that system. Uh and that
[2:16:55] would have required a very large
pluggable um outlet that would have been
[2:17:02] able to be removed. I I suppose, but I
was trying to hide it and make it more
[2:17:07] visually appealing for the neighborhood.
Um, so when I came to the conclusion
[2:17:13] that that was not a NEC uh acceptable
installation, I had to move back to an
[2:17:19] external charger. But all of the
electrics are inside of the pillar in
[2:17:23] order to um again reduce the visual
impact. Uh there is
[2:17:30] the the the the risk in my mind
associated with doing uh a removable
[2:17:36] charger is one we're talking about
somebody who does have mobility issues
[2:17:41] sometimes. Uh these cables are fairly
heavy. Uh they're difficult to move and
[2:17:46] the the in the the main issue from an
electrical safety standpoint. Yes, we
[2:17:52] would have a large outlet down near the
bottom that it could be plugged in.
[2:17:56] again, more visually impactful. Those
systems are not intended to be plugged
[2:18:00] in and removed repeatedly. Uh you'll get
wear over time. It's it's just not um
[2:18:08] it's not an ideal use case.
>> Okay. Thank you.
[2:18:14] » May I
>> please?
[2:18:16] » Yeah. So um uh with respect to so first
of all um
[2:18:23] in order to accommodate your wife right
we have gone a step further than what
[2:18:29] the ordinance already allows which is
that we can we can establish a um a
[2:18:36] handicap parking spot um as a reasonable
>> issues though
[2:18:42] » talking about that I I know I know but
to me one is related to the other. Um,
[2:18:48] so I just pointing out that in addition
to what would be allowed under
[2:18:52] ordinance, we're entering into an
agreement that gives you exclusive use
[2:18:56] of that with respect. Now, secondly,
with respect to the pillar, again, we
[2:19:01] have an ordinance that provides for that
and I'm perfectly happy with proceeding
[2:19:06] um to enter into a pillar agreement
um in accordance with whatever the
[2:19:12] ordinance allows.
The issue to me is the EV charger. We
[2:19:17] have no ordinance for an EV charger.
We've begun to discuss it. I've
[2:19:23] expressed my uh strong concerns with a
number of issues with respect to EV
[2:19:28] chargers on posts along our streets. We
live um in a in a town that's a uh it's
[2:19:37] an intimate town with houses close
together um with um not everybody has a
[2:19:43] driveway. It's not possible. But that
doesn't mean we should be putting uh uh
[2:19:50] charging posts in the ride of way across
the burrow. And I don't see how this
[2:19:56] specific situation is any different from
the situation with respect to any other
[2:20:01] resident in the community. And um so I
am 100% against
[2:20:08] um any pillar ordinance that would
include the EV charger. I think that's a
[2:20:14] mistake as a precedent. I think it's a
mistake as a policy. Thank you.
[2:20:21] » Thank you. Any other comments or
questions from council?
[2:20:26] » Would it be helpful? I'm sorry. Were you
a sec?
[2:20:30] » I I have full faith in zoning and
electrical.
[2:20:34] » Is your mic on?
>> I have full faith in the zoning and the
[2:20:39] electrical and I I think that
we could do this pillar knowing that
[2:20:44] they're they're going to do their job
and it's it's going to work and it's
[2:20:47] going to be good. concern I have is
comes back to the cable and the
[2:20:51] connector that goes from here to the car
and maybe I don't completely understand
[2:20:56] it and need to look at this better. Um,
but to have cables just hanging out
[2:21:02] there
just seems to be a way we
[2:21:07] we need just to work on it and make sure
that we can get a design that doesn't
[2:21:13] have that long cable there all the time
because if everybody on Washington
[2:21:18] Avenue has these pillars, which are
great, which are fine, I have no
[2:21:21] problems with them, but the cables
attached to them.
[2:21:27] May may I speak to that?
>> Yes.
[2:21:29] » Um, so as as far as an untethered EV
charger, uh, there is a little blurb at
[2:21:34] the at the very back on the
decision-making process on that.
[2:21:38] Ultimately, you cannot get a ULlisted EV
charger in the United States that is
[2:21:43] untethered. So, that is
ultimately not a possibility. The only
[2:21:48] possibility to accomplish that would be
to use a portable charger.
[2:21:53] » Right.
Um, have you thought about um the
[2:21:58] possibility of
mounting your charger on a post in your
[2:22:04] yard and then sending a conduit
underneath the sidewalk that comes up to
[2:22:10] this post in the right of way and I know
this particular charger that you have
[2:22:16] currently you're currently looking at
because we actually have one and that
[2:22:20] can you then take you you can open it up
And as you know, you can hardwire it.
[2:22:26] You can also detach the charging cord
that's current the the charging cable
[2:22:32] where it's attached to that unit. Take
that and feed it back from the right
[2:22:38] ofway under the sidewalk and back up to
the charger.
[2:22:42] So it's a 25 foot long cable.
If it's if you're charging right at your
[2:22:48] post, you probably need about five feet
on the street side. That right? So, if
[2:22:54] what's coming up is your charger cable
and when it exits maybe exits your post
[2:22:59] from the top of your post, you have
about five feet left that you can use
[2:23:04] then to get to your car and then when
it's not in use that you might be able
[2:23:09] to feed that bit of cable back into your
hollow post and then flip the cap back
[2:23:15] down on the top. Have you thought about
something like that?
[2:23:18] » Um, I have not. I would entertain that,
but that would take a significant amount
[2:23:23] of research and engineering to determine
if the heat loads for the flex flexible
[2:23:28] cables are not intended to be in
conduit. So, the EV cable that goes from
[2:23:33] the charger to the plug is per the NAC,
you're not allowed to put that into
[2:23:38] conduit. So, I don't I don't know if
there's a method there. Mhm.
[2:23:43] » Um,
>> but I haven't thought about it much
[2:23:46] further than getting to that point in
the NEC and saying that's that's a nogo.
[2:23:50] » That's interesting. So then the other
item I wanted to bring up is that when I
[2:23:53] was doing research for the EV ordinance
that I'm have presented to council and
[2:23:57] that is currently being worked on that
um looked at a number of communities
[2:24:04] that provide charging curbside charging
and they basically have a pillar that
[2:24:08] comes up with a receptacle in it and
then people are issued an um a charging
[2:24:17] cord that they then plug in when they're
charging and unplug when they're not
[2:24:21] charging. And so I know there are some
cities that have these. I also know that
[2:24:26] there's at least one company that will
do this, like if you have a private
[2:24:30] business and you want to provide
charging at the street that they will
[2:24:34] wire it up for you and that's what you
have. And then people who sign up to
[2:24:38] this like charging club or whatever are
issued these
[2:24:42] cords that you these charging cords that
you can connect to the pillar and to
[2:24:47] your char and to your car. And then
there is no um cable hanging out there
[2:24:51] that has to be wound around.
>> You could point me to a company. Um that
[2:24:55] would appreciate it. I my research I
have not found any UL listed pieces of
[2:25:00] equipment that meet that.
>> Okay.
[2:25:02] » Description.
>> Well, be happy to share information that
[2:25:04] that I've found if it will be helpful
for your design.
[2:25:09] And then I'm wondering if for
council's activity if what I should be
[2:25:14] doing and I'm not I don't want to do it
yet but would be to table the for the
[2:25:18] discussion on this motion to enable us
to get more um I'm not making the motion
[2:25:25] to table just saying if this is
something that will be helpful is to
[2:25:30] table this so that enable every all
parties to get more information and to
[2:25:34] be able to address this more concretely
at a future meeting. [snorts]
[2:25:43] » I have one more question though for
Matt.
[2:25:45] The way you are charging now, um, is
that just a level one charger?
[2:25:50] » It is.
>> It is. Um, I would assume you'd have a
[2:25:53] lot more flexibility with a level one
charger. Have you thought about just
[2:25:58] having a pillar that could use that? I
would imagine you have a lot more
[2:26:04] options. I know it takes forever. I have
a level one charger still. Um, but is
[2:26:10] that at all an option where we wouldn't
have some of these issues with a 240?
[2:26:17] » Ultimately,
I'm not going to speak to
[2:26:24] the goal here was to futureproof.
>> I'm sorry. It was to what?
[2:26:28] » To future proof.
>> Okay. I I don't want to be coming back
[2:26:31] to council in in 10 years when EV car or
combustion cars are banned or whatever
[2:26:37] the situation may be. Obviously, the
landscape would be different then. But
[2:26:42] um I think we can all see electric cars
being a benefit to society both to from
[2:26:47] an environmental impact but also just
from you know the the the absolute chaos
[2:26:53] and flux in the world and how that
affects gas prices and things of that
[2:26:57] nature. Um, so the goal here was to to
be able to put a level two charger in if
[2:27:04] it comes to it that
you know I I I don't really want to
[2:27:08] speak further than that, but that's
that's where the intent was.
[2:27:15] » Any other comments or questions from
council?
[2:27:19] » May May I make just one more?
>> Yeah, I'm I'm going to ask that was my
[2:27:24] next question. Does the applicant have
anything else to say?
[2:27:27] Um
there were a couple of things. Um
[2:27:30] absolutely
I will well I guess the one question I
[2:27:35] have for Michelle would be is it our
respons I know it's our responsibility
[2:27:39] to apply um in the event that we need to
uh get an application. Is that our
[2:27:45] responsibility to do that research as
well?
[2:27:47] » I I I can give you a name of somebody at
PennDOT.
[2:27:51] » Okay. that you could contact to see if
you actually need a permit or they can
[2:27:55] give you some sort of approval to do
that.
[2:27:58] » Okay. Thank you. Um
[2:28:02] I I kind of have lost my thought here.
I've um obviously been trying to figure
[2:28:08] out a way to charge my car for a long
time. Um I know it's not a great
[2:28:14] situation right now, but it does not
look like there's going to be a
[2:28:16] resolution anytime soon. Um,
outside of this discussion, and maybe
[2:28:24] I'll speak one more thing. Um,
[2:28:29] I I've done I've done a spent a lot of
time that I don't really have trying to
[2:28:33] figure this out. I think that I've
created a a fairly aesthetic
[2:28:38] um
um design that is safe. It's defensible.
[2:28:44] It's, you know, the the the coupling of
that to ah this is the the thing that I
[2:28:52] wanted to mention. The coupling of that
to the dedicated parking spot is
[2:28:56] intended in this situation to uh mimic
the driveway that we were denied by
[2:29:02] zoning hearing board. If uh if I quite
frankly had done a little bit more
[2:29:08] research and understood the level of
complexity and the legalities associated
[2:29:12] with zoning hearing board, I probably
would have been a little bit more
[2:29:15] prepared for that situation. Uh we might
not be in this situation right now. We
[2:29:19] might I might be parking there.
The agreement that we had put together
[2:29:25] was intended to alleviate the need for
that zoning variance. And in order to do
[2:29:31] that, we needed a dedicated spot as well
as the ability to plug an electric car
[2:29:36] in in the future that we all know that
is coming. So that's kind of the drive
[2:29:44] here. In my mind, if it's one or the
other, it's not it's not uh an equitable
[2:29:51] trade. Um,
and that's kind of where I'll I'll end
[2:29:56] that discussion. Um, moving forward, I
don't believe that we're going to have
[2:30:02] resolution anytime soon. As I mentioned,
is there some guidance that I can do an
[2:30:10] an ADA compliant cord cover for the
level one charger? Something that we can
[2:30:16] quite frankly get this monstrosity out
of my the front of my yard. I I'm
[2:30:20] looking for guidance. I'm not trying to
be malicious here. I just I want the
[2:30:26] right answer.
Is it possible for for Matt to work with
[2:30:32] Barry Isit, the gentleman who sent us
all of the very technical specs? I mean,
[2:30:38] is that a thing that's done?
>> I mean, I think that he would have to
[2:30:42] work with Anna as our representative.
She is the front-facing person when when
[2:30:45] he would go apply for something and
Greg, tell me if I'm wrong, and she
[2:30:49] would then relay. But that's just
>> it. It would be coordinated through Anna
[2:30:55] and and Craig. uh on a permit level. I I
think the problem here in the the issue
[2:31:02] Matt's referencing is without council
approval, nothing can really be
[2:31:07] installed within the right of way. So
any type of permanent fixture can't go
[2:31:14] forward uh in any way, shape, or form,
whether it's it's burying a cable or or
[2:31:19] a cord or whatever to to provide it. And
from a a liability standpoint, uh having
[2:31:27] a some type of
[2:31:31] uh obstruction or impediment across the
sidewalk uh is is not something that I
[2:31:39] can recommend uh to council at this
juncture, which is why we were this
[2:31:46] which is as Matt stated is the basis of
of this conversation. So I I
[2:31:52] I'm not sure if there is, you know,
there are there are certainly I know
[2:31:56] you're referencing an ADA compliant, you
know, uh, wire cover for certain
[2:32:02] applications, whether in a in an
auditorium or something for for someone
[2:32:07] to to transverse. I'm not sure if that
would ever be acceptable in a a public
[2:32:14] right-of-way situation and and absent
maybe Michelle and I reviewing that
[2:32:19] because I can tell by that by Michelle's
gesture there that that I that we don't
[2:32:24] know off the top of our head whether
that exists, we c we can look into it.
[2:32:28] Um, I'm not I I will be honest, Matt.
I'm not confident in any way that there
[2:32:34] is something because the the whole point
of a rightway is that it is unobstructed
[2:32:39] in in all ways. Um, but council's
blessing, we can certainly explore it in
[2:32:45] the in the interim here.
>> So, I have a question. If uh if this
[2:32:50] doesn't get tabled and the motion is
denied, what are the next steps for the
[2:32:56] Newman's? Is it just done?
[2:33:01] » [laughter]
>> I
[2:33:02] » no
>> I mean
[2:33:06] » is it done is um
>> always come back again. I mean it's not
[2:33:11] it's not the end of the
>> I guess my question is they they they
[2:33:14] will have a course of action to be able
to try to do this again should it get
[2:33:18] denied.
This is all discretionary in council's
[2:33:23] th this particular motion to the pillar
agreement is all discretionary for
[2:33:27] council. So it could if it gets denied
it can certainly be added to a future
[2:33:33] agenda again.
>> Um
[2:33:38] that's answering your question.
>> How long cable the permanent cable from
[2:33:41] the pedestal to your car that'll be
there all the time. How long is that?
[2:33:45] » It's 25 ft.
>> I'm sorry. What was that?
[2:33:47] » It's 25 ft.
>> 25. So, you are going to have a 25 ft
[2:33:50] cable.
>> I haven't reached out to the
[2:33:55] uh manufacturer to find out if there's a
sanctioned way to shorten it, but that
[2:34:00] is a possibility. Um, as Julia
mentioned, I think it can be
[2:34:05] disassembled according to the
instructions, but whether or not they
[2:34:08] would sanction that and it would still
be ULlisted, I don't know.
[2:34:14] So, my suggestion again is to table this
to allow everyone to get more
[2:34:19] information so we can reconvene and
discuss this with um having some of our
[2:34:25] questions answered and Matt doing more
research, us doing more research, be
[2:34:30] able to talk to our um our consultants,
understand this better, and then be able
[2:34:35] to look at this again, which might be a
little bit easier than voting this
[2:34:39] motion down and then having to bring it
back again and starting this all over.
[2:34:45] So, if you'd like me to make that
motion, I'm happy to do it.
[2:34:49] » May I comment? So, um I to me it really
makes no difference whether we table. I
[2:34:55] don't have an objection to tableabling.
Um if we were to deny as as Sister said,
[2:35:01] it would be we could essentially deny
without prejudice. So, um it could be
[2:35:06] reintroduced um whenever. So, from that
perspective, it it really makes little
[2:35:11] difference to me. I mean, my only
concern right now is as as
[2:35:15] um Mr. Newman said, it's a it's it's a
you use the word monstrosity, but
[2:35:24] anyway, it's an uncomfortable situation
on the street, and the sooner we get
[2:35:28] this resolved one way or the other, the
better. that you're you're I think um
[2:35:36] hoping, anticipating, whatever, that
this gets resolved in a way that allows
[2:35:40] you to put a post in. Um and so you're
trying to keep the car charged in the
[2:35:46] meantime. Um from from my perspective,
and as I said, I'm not for um allowing
[2:35:52] the charging post at this time until
such time as we have an ordinance that
[2:35:58] allows it. Um, I think it's important
that uh we we get some resolution here
[2:36:06] so that um if if it's yes, it's yes. And
if it's no, you're you're going to have
[2:36:10] to deal with the the fact that you have
no charger for your car and fix your
[2:36:16] hardship that you've created in some
other way. But all that being said,
[2:36:22] um that was just my editorial comment.
It doesn't really change that we can
[2:36:27] either table or deny
[2:36:32] I mean, in effect, is there really any
difference between tableabling or
[2:36:38] » or denying without prejudice? Is is
>> what would make it easier for Matt to
[2:36:43] come back,
>> right?
[2:36:44] » There there's there is no difference.
[2:36:50] » I think
>> so.
[2:36:53] I would I would prefer to table it if
that is the feeling in the room from
[2:36:57] fellow counselors that this needs
further discussion.
[2:37:02] » Okay. I'm going to make a motion to
table this pending um the to offer
[2:37:07] council the ability to um do further
research as previously stated.
[2:37:12] » I have a motion to table. Do I have a
second?
[2:37:14] » Second.
>> All those in favor? I
[2:37:17] » I I
tabled.
[2:37:25] I'm sorry. We don't take public comment
when we table motions. Sorry.
[2:37:32] [laughter]
>> Doesn't happen. Sorry.
[2:37:34] » There's a public comment period.
>> Yeah, there's public comment at the end
[2:37:37] that you can speak at.
[2:37:42] » So, it's been tabled so we can try to
come to a solution
[2:37:47] and and introduce it at the April cycle.
So, what am I to do with my monstrosity?
[2:37:54] » Take it down.
>> I would
[2:37:55] » Nobody's
>> I would tell
[2:37:57] » we can what?
>> We can certainly talk after the meeting.
[2:38:01] » Nobody from Burrow has asked me to take
it down, but I did receive a solic uh a
[2:38:06] court summon about it. So, I just not
sure if everybody's aware here.
[2:38:10] » Well, hang hang on. We're we're not
approving its existence in any way,
[2:38:14] shape, or form.
>> I know that, but nobody's asked me to
[2:38:17] take it down. You haven't been issued a
violation notice yet?
[2:38:20] » Yes, he has. He's been citation. He has
a court date.
[2:38:22] » He was issued a citation. I I can't
speak before the citation.
[2:38:26] » It went straight It didn't get he didn't
get a violation for this. It went
[2:38:29] straight to citation.
>> It was a violation for the previous post
[2:38:33] which has been removed.
>> The and
[2:38:37] the code officer interpreted that as a
continuation of the same violation.
[2:38:46] Okay. Thank you.
>> All right. Uh, moving on. Manager's
[2:38:53] report.
[2:39:00] » So, there I have one item of business
that um we discussed at the last meeting
[2:39:05] regarding um the
action to solicit bids for landscaping
[2:39:12] services. Um we're looking to get more
um performance and for more economical
[2:39:22] services which I'm believe we can uh
accomplish and we'll do that through
[2:39:28] this motion um this evening to solicit
bids for the landscaping services.
[2:39:37] » I would entertain a motion from council.
Um, I'll make a motion to authorize
[2:39:41] solicitation of bids for landscaping
services.
[2:39:44] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[2:39:47] » Second.
>> Any comments or questions from council
[2:39:50] on this? And
>> I'll just mention for council's benefit
[2:39:53] that we did review the bid package and
it's it's ready to go upon your
[2:39:56] authorization.
>> Thank you. Any public comment on this
[2:40:01] motion?
>> All those in favor?
[2:40:05] » I
>> I.
[2:40:06] » Any nays? Motion passes. I keep
forgetting there's a lag there.
[2:40:10] » Yeah.
>> Okay. Well, we've moved um the only item
[2:40:13] under my report went earlier with Greg's
report. So, I will uh move on to the
[2:40:17] approval of minutes and entertain
motions.
[2:40:20] » I'd like to make a motion to approve the
February 4th, 2026 work session minutes.
[2:40:26] » Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[2:40:28] » Second.
>> Thank you. Any comments or questions
[2:40:30] from council on these notes? These
minutes?
[2:40:33] » All those in favor? I Any? Motion
passes.
[2:40:38] » I'd like to make a motion to approve the
February 26, 2026 council meeting
[2:40:43] minutes.
>> Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
[2:40:45] second?
>> Second.
[2:40:46] » Any comments or questions from council
on these minutes?
[2:40:50] » All those in favor?
>> I.
[2:40:53] » Any naysay? Motion passes.
Okay. Moving on to budget and finance.
[2:40:57] I'll entertain a motion for the
consolidated expenditure report. I'd
[2:41:01] like to make a motion to accept subject
to audit the consolidated expenditure
[2:41:06] report for the month of February
totaling $314,826.17.
[2:41:14] Thank you. I have a motion. Do I have a
second?
[2:41:16] » Second.
>> Thank you. Any comments or questions
[2:41:18] from council on this?
Any public comment?
[2:41:23] All those in favor?
>> Any nay?
[2:41:27] » Any nays? Motion passes. Okay. Gina
personnel Uh, no additional activity. We
[2:41:33] are still looking for two members for
the uh, human relations commission.
[2:41:38] » Okay, great. Thank you. Any old business
from council?
[2:41:43] Any announcements?
Public to be heard.
[2:41:52] Please come up.
[2:42:00] Joe Lovey, 151 North State Street. You
guys know me. Uh, it's in reference to
[2:42:05] the uh, bear with me. 239 Court Street
Wall. I wanted you to there's something
[2:42:12] interesting and I think the historical
guys are wrong on this. Uh, my house is
[2:42:18] 233 years old.
Every every chimney in the town has blue
[2:42:24] stone on the top of the chimney. The
reason why they put blue stone on the
[2:42:29] top of the chimney, not the regular
stone, is because all stones absorb
[2:42:34] water. Blue stone have tighter pores.
Okay? So what it is is that the reason
[2:42:40] why first of all if you look at other
places if you use a brownstone it's got
[2:42:45] to be almost a foot thick because when
the water hits it it absorbs in it it's
[2:42:50] going to crack and break. The only wall
in our town that we had something like
[2:42:54] that was on State Street right next to
the Fitch building and if you recall it
[2:42:59] had triangles on the top. Do you
remember? Okay. That got removed. Okay.
[2:43:05] That was historical as ever. The reason
why it got removed was is because the
[2:43:09] water sat in there, busted it apart and
so forth. And they put the blue stone.
[2:43:14] So I have to be honest with you, when
you put stone on the facade, you can use
[2:43:20] many different types of stone, okay? But
when you put it on the top, you want the
[2:43:25] stone with the most types of pores.
That's why, and I use mine as the
[2:43:30] example, I put up a new piece on mine
years ago. They only put it a half inch
[2:43:37] thick. The reason was they couldn't lift
it that high. Mine's an inch and a half.
[2:43:43] Okay. Reason is is that it's tougher to
break through. And all of a sudden, it
[2:43:48] it weighs 200 and some odd pounds. They
couldn't get it up that high. They were
[2:43:52] pulling mules. So, at the end of the
day, there is the history, but there is
[2:43:57] what is today. And if our founding
fathers knew this, they would also use
[2:44:03] materials. They wouldn't use stone.
We've got better materials.
[2:44:07] So, what I'd like you to do is the
historical view board is a review board.
[2:44:14] It's there. It's a recommendation. They
say no. You guys could say yes. I really
[2:44:19] want you to think about this is that
they violated something. They're willing
[2:44:25] to pay the fees and so forth. But I have
to be honest with you, if you make them
[2:44:29] put it's their investment. If you make
them put a different stone on the top,
[2:44:34] every good mason out there will tell you
that blue stone is the best material to
[2:44:39] put on the top. It should also have a
ridge on the bottom so when the water
[2:44:43] when the water comes down, it hits a
drain ridge that the drip doesn't come
[2:44:48] down the wall and pop the mortar joints.
Whether they did that or not, I don't
[2:44:52] know. I I I've just learned all these
things. But I have to be honest with you
[2:44:56] guys.
We have people making the town look
[2:45:01] better. Okay, it's a stone, believe it
or not. That is, would it look cooler
[2:45:06] with the natural stone? Oh, without a
doubt. But I'll tell you what, it's got
[2:45:10] to be really, really thick. It's going
to weigh a ton. It won't even look app
[2:45:14] propo because the wall is so big. Okay.
I only came up here to help them and to
[2:45:20] provide you a guidance.
It's not modern. My house has a and and
[2:45:25] and and Julia Julia stone remember your
you she had a stone a flag stone on the
[2:45:30] top of her chimney and when the
hurricane came by it blew it off
[2:45:34] » the tornado
>> the tornado came by it blew it off
[2:45:37] that's why it's got to be a certain uh
weight and so forth but at the end of
[2:45:41] the day I just want you to think about
that
[2:45:44] that the historical review board they
made their decision it's done okay at
[2:45:50] the end of the day I have to be honest
with you that is the best stone And you
[2:45:53] could ask other stone people. You can go
to Route One stone quarry and so forth.
[2:45:57] That is the best stone for a top of a
wall. Two, when the ice and so forth
[2:46:02] comes that it will not crack and so
forth. I I'm just trying to help. And
[2:46:06] this other gentleman.
>> Hey Joe.
[2:46:08] » Yeah.
>> That's So first of all, um, you have it
[2:46:10] right in terms of process, right? It's
it's been to Harb. It's now to us. We
[2:46:15] can kick it back to Harb if we want, but
>> you're just going to kick it back and
[2:46:18] forth. Yeah. We're not going to do that.
>> You have that. You have that right. You
[2:46:20] got that right. And I appreciate your
comment and um about the about the stone
[2:46:24] quality.
>> It was just to help you. Okay. So, at
[2:46:27] the end of the day, Okay. The other
thing is is I was just going to try to
[2:46:30] just help this gentleman.
>> You got two minutes.
[2:46:32] » Okay, that's cool. But [laughter] but at
the end of the day, I I sorry I don't
[2:46:36] know your name, but I actually thought
we were lynching somebody when I went
[2:46:39] down the street.
>> The only thing I could say is this. If
[2:46:42] you're going to keep it up, take all the
flowers and so forth off of it because
[2:46:46] you're just attracting attention. Okay?
But my thing is is that I I I really
[2:46:52] believe that that Chris
Chris hit the nail on the head. It's a
[2:46:56] difficult decision. You don't have an
you don't have an ordinance.
[2:47:00] You don't have an ordinance. So
truthfully, unfortunately, these guys
[2:47:04] don't have an ordinance for EV. And I
have to be honest with you,
[2:47:08] I don't know how you buy a car that all
of a sudden you have to charge. Nothing
[2:47:12] against you. Don't take it personal. But
all of a sudden it's like, where do I
[2:47:16] charge it? You're very lucky. We have a
Waw Wa now right down the road. So, the
[2:47:21] only thing I could say is is that
charge it full full steam ahead down at
[2:47:27] the road and then you could park your
car anywhere and so forth. Is it
[2:47:30] inconvenience? It is, but unfortunately
there are only about a handful and and I
[2:47:35] I I went around. There's probably two
handfuls of car of houses on this town
[2:47:41] that don't have a driveway and they're
your situation. That's equivalent to
[2:47:45] living in Philadelphia.
Okay. And at the end of the day, it's
[2:47:50] going back and forth, legal, not legal,
and so forth. We don't have an
[2:47:54] ordinance. We have somebody that's
handicapped. At the end of the day,
[2:47:59] we can give them a handicapped spot, but
at the end, let's be realistic.
[2:48:04] You guys really don't want to have 20
foot cables. And I will let you know
[2:48:08] something. I work for BMW.
>> All right, Joe, your time is up. I'll
[2:48:11] give you I'll give you 30 more seconds.
>> 30 more seconds.
[2:48:14] If this gentleman changes any of his
electrical
[2:48:19] pieces that he buys from the
manufacturer, your warranty is null and
[2:48:22] void. Okay? But at the end of the day,
I'm just going to let you know
[2:48:25] something. You probably don't want, you
know, because you don't have it. You
[2:48:29] don't want these cables hanging out all
over on a on a street.
[2:48:34] I It's going to be a disaster. Sorry to
bother you guys. Just to thank you, Joe,
[2:48:38] guys.
>> Any additional public to be heard?
[2:48:44] All right. Seeing none, I will entertain
a motion to adjurnn.
[2:48:48] » So moved.
>> Do I have a second?
[2:48:50] » Second.
>> Thank you. All those in favor?
[2:48:53] » I
>> I.
[2:48:54] » Any nays? Motion passes.
>> Thank you everybody.