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Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to convene the interim session of the House Ag and Natural Resources Committee, September 16, 2014. We're in order. Welcome to all of you. We have a full house today, which is obvious. And because of that, it will be, or may be difficult for all questions to be answered, and for everyone to have as much time as he or she would like.

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We have invited testimony only today, and we have some very, very heavy duty subjects that we're going to be covering.

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Because of that, we're going to have to adhere to a very strict time limit of depending on which topic we're on two to three minutes per person.

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My apologies to you in advance, but we have no other way of getting through our agenda without that's kind of strict adherence.

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If the committee members have additional questions that we are unable to get to from any of the folks that will be appearing today, please write down your questions, hand them into Beth, and she will get those answered for you.

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If the public has questions that you would like to have responded to, we will entertain those as well, and you can pass those in over here to the committee assistant, okay?

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And with that, we beg everyone's indulgence to help us get through this very strenuous agenda.

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And please, at all times, be cognizant of one fact.

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We are all Oregonians, and we must all respect each other's opinions.

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We may not agree with everyone, but as citizens of this state, we can do it better than anybody else.

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Please remember these are your friends and neighbors.

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With that, that's some housekeeping.

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Yeah, just two quick things.

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Members, you've probably already heard about the new recording system.

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So just to be aware that when the blue light is on, the recording system is functioning.

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When it's not on, it's not.

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with no longer flash, like it used to when it was being paused.

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And then second piece of housekeeping, and you've probably

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already heard about this, community services is just updated

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all of their background briefs.

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So if you are interested, and I'll be happy to help you find them

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on the website, or provide you with copies, whatever you'd like.

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So it's a couple of little housekeeping items.

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Thanks very much.

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For everyone in the audience, I think typically we hear in terms

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of force products in the industry that mills close down, that we have a lot of people who

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have or are losing jobs, that we are facing litigation, both foreign against the harvest

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of timber in the state, that folks are unable to get along, that we've paralyzed oftentimes

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the management of our forests and I am pleased today that we are going to be taking a look

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at Forest Health and I suspect to give you a very different paradigm than what we have

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been reading about and hearing about in the media.

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With that, I would like to call forward, please, State Forest, or Doug Decker, Brown Scone,

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and Chad Davis.

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Welcome to each of you, and some exciting things to talk about this afternoon.

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And so we begin, as we will, do you mind for the time?

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Thank you.

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Did you have a good afternoon, Chair Whit, members of the committee of the record main of Becker?

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I'm Morty State Forrestor and the Director of the Purple Forestry.

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We're going to focus in on forest health, particularly these are relates to federal forests today.

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Please to be joined by a number of folks, some who are here and others who will rotate up here in a few moments who have people who have helped us shape the state's approach to increasing the pace and scale of management on Oregon's national forest lands.

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You recall the State of Oregon through ODF is working exactly with local communities, and with federal agencies to improve the management, the resiliency of federal forests in Oregon.

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We refer to this as the collaborative support package, or the 2.88, may have heard that.

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That's 2.88 million dollars.

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A lot of it was that we've been investing in some very specific ways that Chaskin that described for you here in a moment.

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I think you're making a real difference for rural or in communities. Our goal in the 30 minutes that we have, if we can take that time, is to update you on the impact of the work.

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I'm going to start off by talking about why it's important, why this matters to Oregon, and then putting it in context with some new tools that Oregon has in place to work with the federal force management agencies.

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So for me, I want you to know why this is important and I would start with the first

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slide is that 60% of Oregon's forest lands are 30 million, there's 60% of our 30

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million acres.

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Forest lands are owned and managed by the federal government and their managed to achieve

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goals and outcomes that have been defined by Congress and that have been enacted in a set

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federal rules that are translated by the federal agencies and

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demand management plans.

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And the work that we're going to describe today of the 2.88 is really all within

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the context of those existing federal authorities, the National

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Force Management Act, the National Environment Policy Act.

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So this is within those existing authorities.

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The State of Oregon is preparing a set of recommendations about ways to

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modernize some of these authorities.

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And that's another conversation.

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We've begun that with our Board of Forestry, with the Governor's office, and with a growing

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number at the national level.

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And so this is really kind of playing within the existing authorities that are out there.

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And so here's the problem.

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We have a complicated confluence of conditions and choices and policies that have led to a situation

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in which much of Oregon's federal forests, not all of it, but much of it, particularly

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Eastern Oregon is in a compromised condition, and we see that through fire through the

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infestations of insects and disease where it's vulnerable there.

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This next slide will show you a picture of a forest ownership.

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The colors are different ownership types.

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And yellow on this map is a private industrial forest land.

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The green lands are Oregon's federal forest lands.

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And the residents are lands that are owned by Oregon's family forest landowners typically smaller landowners.

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You can see that the cascades, the southwest Oregon, and much of eastern Oregon, are owned and managed by the federal government.

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And so these lands that are federally owned represent a significant value and potential in terms of habitat.

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I'm going to ask everyone to please recognize that when we have folks up here

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testifying, they have the microphone, and I'm going to ask that the public please not

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interrupt.

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Thank you, sir.

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Thanks, Brett. So these federal lands really represent significant value, social, economic, and environmental value.

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Habitat, jobs, products, recreation, all the things that we want from multiple use managed forests.

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But there's been a set of legal challenges, of congressional gridlock, of highly debated public opinion, and really some outdated policies that have conspired to produce a set of conditions on these lands.

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that not only do not leverage the potential that they represent, but they actually work against

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the rural communities that are striving to survive. And in many cases, also export risks

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to adjacent non-federal forest lands as well. So the state working through the Governor's Office,

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the Board of Forestry, working with local communities, and collaborative, and with your leadership,

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we've been thinking about how we can make a difference here, and that's what we want to talk to you about today.

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So, Brett is going to tell us a little bit about the governor's standpoint.

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Chad is going to talk through how we've been investing the 2.8.

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And then I'm going to close, I'll come back after we have some of our other colleagues

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trying to, with a sense of this new authorities that we have through the federal farm bill called

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Good Neighbourn, so we're going to be able to find a way to work with federal agencies in 2015-17.

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Thank you for having me for the record.

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My name is Brett Browns, I'm not a resource policy advisor to the governor.

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What I wanted to start with, and I'd like to be brief is, in difference, the remaining

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presenters is just a bit about the governor's perspective on why this issue over federal

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forest management remains such an important one.

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Many people, if not most people in Oregon, probably can't name the National Forest that exist within the state were certainly the BLM districts within the state, but most people have their lives affected, whether they realize it or not often, bye.

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What happens on these lands and the conditions on these federal poorest lands, which has

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started pointed out, dominate the landscape acreage within the state, as shown on the map.

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So what I'd like to do is rattle off some examples of how the public is affected and

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what the various members of the public are affected by federal poorest management. And these

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based on real world examples of people who live in

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house district such as yours or senate districts of senator

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that I have come across in the past two to three years and so

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you know first there's the the rural resident whose community is

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directly adjacent to federal forest lands and uh... who has seen

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decreases in school enrollment or decreases in

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local jobs

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generally related to

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either the idling or closure of mills in their in their community. Then there's the

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resident of places like John Day or Klamath Falls or towns in the Wally, like yesterday

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who wonder whether they should send their kid to school or whether they should spend too much

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time outdoors because of excessive levels of smoke in the air due to wildfire, often burning

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on federal lands. Or there's the school board member or the superintendent or the local

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rural hospital director who is looking at an opportunity to reduce energy costs by converting

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a from fossil fuel sources, heating oil sources to what he biomass that has a connection

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to supporting for us health.

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There's also the tree-hugging environmentalists or the hunter who, like many people in the

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general public, want to know that they can find a place where they can find solitude or

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create, in a place with wild habitat that supports healthy, efficient wildlife populations that

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they can't find in urban environments, or people who just want to know that places like

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that exist within our state.

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There's also the millowner, the mill worker, the logger, the building architect, and some

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of the urban sectors are the trade commodities worker who are looking at the next opportunity

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or wondering whether there will be potential future economic opportunities tied to federal

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forest management, or the Portland resident who just had their rogue river float trip cancelled

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because they could no longer access to put in due to smoke or wildfire, or the Sisters Oregon

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Business Owner who had their inventory of clothing wiped out because they can't wash the smoke

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from the fabric after wildfire.

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And finally, there's the state, not to mention

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the national taxpayer who is seeing increasing

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general fund and millions in increasing general fund

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payments for fire suppression costs.

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So the first point here is that this is not just

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a real issue, but this is a statewide issue.

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And it affects citizens of many stripes,

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whether they live adjacent to federal lands

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or not. The current conditions on these lands are exposed or threatened all of the above

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interests that I mentioned in addressing these underlying causal conditions with proactive

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management is really key to finding solutions on the symptoms that are evidenced by the

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examples that are rattled off. The second point is that this is not just an issue of challenge,

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but also an issue of opportunity.

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And we'll hear more about this in a minute from Chad and Tom Insco,

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who came from afar, but the broad point here is that this is an issue that connects across

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economic, social and ecological values. And it can produce the elusive common ground for diverse

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in competing interests and it can provide that often sought after triple bottom line solution in a way that other issues don't always do.

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The issue has ties to the governors and the first ladies interests around advancing rural prosperity,

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but it also connects to Oregon prosperity, writ large.

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And it connects to our cultural identity, both past and present and future.

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So, importantly, Oregon is a leader in this, on this issue, and with growing recognition

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nationally, our history has been tied to the storyline around the Timber Wars, and that's

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our most recent history on this issue, but it's really been because of our locally grown efforts

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to move beyond that tired storyline of the Timber Wars through collaboration that we are

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getting national recognition.

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We know.

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Renational Forest Statewide, where there's not been litigation in seven years, because of the

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work of local forest collaborative groups. And our leadership is also as a state, is also based

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on your leadership as a legislative body, as demonstrated by the advancement of the

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a new form of constructive partnership with federal management agencies, as demonstrated

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through the, as well as local communities and local forest clover of groups that was demonstrated

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in 2013 with the investment of 2.85 million in enhancing the pace and scale of federal

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forest management work, which I know Chad will talk about. So to wrap up building on this momentum

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is very much in the Governor's interest because he believes it connects to many facets of the

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I know he looks forward to working together with the legislature and across party lines to advance the next round of

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solutions in Oregon leadership steps on this issue.

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And lastly, I want to mention the governor recently became Vice Chairman of the Western Governance Association,

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which puts him in line to become chair of the Association in 2015, late 2015.

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I know in that capacity he's looking forward to working with other Western

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governors on Federal Forest Management Policy and doing what he can to increase the

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space, the policy space that we have to build momentum around the positive examples

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that we have going right now for us, but also increase that space to enhance what we

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can do, and that does involve broader policy conversations with a community at the national level

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that Western governors are ideally positioned to influence.

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So with that, I'll close and stick around for any questions, but probably step in the back

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so that Tom Insco can come up and just want to thank you for the invitation.

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Thank you very, very much.

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Appreciate your terms.

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Chair Whit and members of the committee, for the record, my name is Chad Davis, and over

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at the Department of Forestry, I serve as the project manager on the state legislature's

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investment in federal forest health.

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I'm appreciative of this opportunity today to report on how we focus the state's investment

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to strengthen collaborative agreement for active management on federal forest and to increase

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the pace and scale of our health treatments.

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At the highest level, our strategy is targeted and based on a premise that a strong federal

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state partnership can meaningfully improve the status quo of forest management across

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the state.

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And our strategy is leveraged, both in terms of commitment, as evidenced by the Forest Service

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is willingness to partner with the state in this regard, and in terms of its funding, as

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evidenced by their obligation of an additional $10 million of federal funds in the same geographic

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region as the state's focus.

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As a result of the states' investment, the federal investment and the targeted approach being employed,

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local forest collaborative are maturing and increasing the scope of their agreements.

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One example is the Blue Mountain Forest Partners, based out of John Day,

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that are using a state awarded grant to retool their collaborative process

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to match the increased pace and scale of management happening on the Mount International Forest.

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Secondly, the Forest Service is refining its approach to project-level planning, and this effort is buoyed by state investments.

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The Forest Service's regional office made a three-year commitment, and that started last year, to fund a dedicated planning team for larger scale projects in the Blue Mountains region.

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The state funds are being strategically used to leverage even more process change within this particular team's purview.

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The Planning Team's first project is a 90,000 acre project called Lower Joe's of Creek

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Project in Allow County.

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We expect a decision on that project in December of this year.

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On Lower Joe's of state funds are being used to complete heritage resource surveys.

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With our federal partners, we have identified this survey protocol in particular for potential

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cost and time reductions.

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The Planning Team is also charged to deliver two other projects over the next two years.

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The second of which is a 500,000 acre project due in 2016.

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State funds are in play to support this very large scale project as well.

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Finally, all of the combined efforts, including public and private investments,

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are changing the direction of important metrics such as local employment and timber availability.

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As shown on this chart on the screen, we are seeing a significant increase in timber availability.

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In particular here is shown on the mount here in National Forest.

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Compared to what they've produced over the last 10 years. In this regard, state funds are being used to help present layout activities for projects that have already cleared environmental analysis, realizing that there is an additional needed capacity to get those projects, quote unquote, off the shelf.

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The volume of timber actually awarded is indicated by the yellow line on this graph has increased in each of the last three years.

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That includes almost 200% increase from 2012 to 2013 due to the award of a 10-year stewardship contract.

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Just two years ago, now your lumber company had announced it would close due to a lack of supply.

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Today that mill is buying logs and it has indicated an intent to reinvest to improve its milling capacity in the area.

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Well, difficult to plot as an empirical relationship with this increase in timber supply, unemployment

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in grant and horny counties declined by 1% from July of 2013 to July of 2014. That decline

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outpaces what we've seen across the entire state. Given the short window in response time

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for these more bulky metrics, anecdotal evidence makes a much stronger case about the positive

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impacts within the local economy of this work. I encourage each of you to

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follow a store owner in Grant County and ask them for yourselves. At this point, I'm

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going to hand this over to Mr. Tominsco, who can speak to the opportunities that

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these combined state and federal investments are yielding for the far

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sector.

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Mr. Let's go, welcome to our committee. Thank you for making yourself

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available. Please introduce yourself for the record and proceed. Chair Whit, committee members,

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My name is Tom Insco, I'm the Inland Area Manager for Boise Cascade and as Doug mentioned

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I also serve on the State Board of Forestry.

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Chad's mentioned some important metrics primarily focused on the ground.

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We obviously have a significant issue there.

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But also in business, robust performance metrics tied to meaningful outputs is a primary method

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for monitoring success.

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I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask how the $2.8 million dollars, what kind

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of return on investment have we had?

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And I would suggest it's significant because not only has a state leveraged federal partnerships,

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but private partnerships are also being leveraged and to provide some context in terms

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of where we were, literally, when this investment was first made, just a few years ago,

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industry was nearly in collapse in eastern Oregon, out here, Lumber, had announced closure,

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and I was literally in the process of analyzing how we would essentially exit all but one

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of our facilities.

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But then perspective today, Boise Cascade, employees 650 employees in eastern Oregon, so

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a huge switch in terms of where we were directly going and where we are today.

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I wouldn't suggest there aren't challenges, there are thorns on the roses that we're seeing out there.

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And that just illustrates the importance of continued investments in investment and diligence in this case.

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Currently, Boise Cascade is adding jobs and investing in operations in Eastern Oregon, doing part to the leadership and investment of the state.

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Recently, I testified here in Salem that we had added 70 jobs at our lumber mill in

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LaGrand and our Partic Board Plant outside of Island City.

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We're also making significant investments at our Elgin facility.

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We just completed a phase of a two-phase project that will be fully completed mid-year next

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year, represents $15 million of capital investment.

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And it's a new approach for creating a partnership with Federal Forest and what we need to do out there.

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What it will allow us to do is take material off the forest, not just federal, but crust all ownership to a two inch top.

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So a material that would have historically been left in the woods, we are going to keep attached to sawlog.

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We can scan that, we can merchandise that we can take that wood to the proper place whether it be chipping it or taking it into an existing mill infrastructure.

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The value in that really is, yes, we've got 15 million dollars of capital investment.

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But if you look at those mills that we have in Eastern Oregon, they really represent hundreds of millions of dollars of installed investment.

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And today, four of those five mills aren't running.

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So we've got opportunity. And with that insulted capacity, we can add an additional 150 jobs in eastern Oregon. So the trend is positive, but I would suggest that we need to continue to invest, we need to continue to be diligent and the state needs to continue to take a leadership role in forming new partnerships with federal owners in Oregon.

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Last but not least, I want to stress that there is the need for policy reform and we'll continue to work on that too as we go forward.

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So in closing, I just want to thank this committee. I want to thank the governor. I want to thank the staff and all those that are working diligently to really change the tide and rural Oregon and with forced health in eastern Oregon and across the state.

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Thank you, Mr. Instructor. Thank you very, very much. And again, I apologize for the

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brevity that we have you before us, but such as the nature. Give us a take home message.

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Take home message is the trend lines are going in the right direction. There is a ton more work to do.

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And some of the new tools that we have are going to set the stage for the next couple of years.

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We've gained an authority called Good Neighbor Authority within the federal farm bill,

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which allows state foresters within agreement and place with the federal agencies,

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actually manage a project on federal land to accomplish those objectives that have gone through that process.

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So what we're thinking about and we'll be talking with you more about in the full session is a package that would

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I was to essentially double the investment and further increase the pace and scale of restoration

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on technical four-stime.

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Gentlemen, thank you so very, very much and your message is one of hope.

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Thank you for your hard work.

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We look forward to hearing from you more about this here in the future.

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We'd love to bring a topic back related to buying that.

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We will be looking forward to hearing that.

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Thank you.

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All right.

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I'd like to call forward, please.

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Thomas Roy and Palmer Mason, please.

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Can we do all of this?

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Yes.

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Can we do all of this?

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Can we do all of this?

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Okay.

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All right.

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Fine.

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Thank you very much.

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I appreciate that.

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We will look forward to your presentation during the full session.

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I appreciate your helping us with the clock.

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We just gained five minutes.

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Thank you.

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With that, we're going to switch gears and move from forest health to the lead ammunition survey.

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And I'd prophesys by saying that there's been a great deal of discussion about the possibility

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of our state banning lead ammunition.

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And there's been it's not surprising a rather controversial issue of which a number of us on this committee have been receiving a great deal of communication from the general public.

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One hour ago I had at that point I had received 170 emails, so it's suggestive of how important this is to the general public.

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And we're looking forward to hearing more about what may or may not be proposed.

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With that, I'd like to call forward, please, Roy Elliker and Ron Anglan.

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Yes, Vice Chair Esquivel, please.

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Before the panel gets in place, I would like to add that I've received almost 200 emails on

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I don't remember before you begin, sir, a little on orthodox, but I understand that you may have a question or something.

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I'll tell you, that issue is why I'm here, and that I don't think it's proper to go on the last subject about

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for us without some influence of the public.

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Okay.

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We're here for an informational hearing.

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That's what this is all about.

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And we're receiving that information to assist us in helping to determine whether or not we may be entertaining certain pieces of legislation

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in the regular session.

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Based on the information that we received today, that may, that may, that may.

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May sway some of us or not. You will have and the rest of the public will have more than adequate

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opportunity during the legislative session to testify. And I'm sorry, sir, but I'm going to have to cut the public off.

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We have to move forward. My apologies.

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Gentlemen, welcome.

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Thank you for making yourselves available.

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And please give us your views on the led ammunition survey and whatever background that you might have for the committee.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you Mr. Chair, members committee, Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, though.

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I would like to take a few minutes to speak about another matter.

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And to what's that?

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Identify yourself.

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Oh yes, for the record, my name is Roy Elker and I'm the director of the Oregon Department Fish Wildlife.

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And before I start my prepared comments which were passed out to the committee,

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before I start my prepared comments.

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What would like to practice my testimony that I think all of you know that I'm leaving this position and going to the Fish Wildlife Service and work on fisheries.

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And I wanted to come forward and Mr. Chair, I'm appreciative of the time frame,

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But it would be remiss if I did not thank this committee for all their help and support

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in the years that I have been in this building on Fishwallow Fisheries.

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And the appreciation of the many things I have learned about the business of governance from

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the members of this committee and others in the legislature, as well as the support for the

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department and for its policies and for the passion that all the members of this committee

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bring to fish wildlife management in Oregon.

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And I've never disagreed with the vice chair

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Representative Eskimo.

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But Mr. Chair, it's a bit of sweet moment for me.

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Friday's my last real day on the job.

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And then I'm moving out of the state government

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in the federal government where I hope I can bring the viewpoints

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of many of you into some of the federal processes.

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At least I'm hoping that's why they asked me

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to come join them when they get there.

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So again, I just want to thank the committee for all

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help to the years both individually and collectively. I've had many mentors on this committee

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and outside this committee, many folks have come and gone. All have been very helpful to me.

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And I want to thank each and every one of you. So thank you.

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Well, we're all in this committee. Thanks you for your service. You have always made yourself

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available, not only to this committee, but to the general public. I know that personally,

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that you love the resources that you managed and we have been in most capable hands under your leadership in guidance.

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Thank you, Mr. Chair, and now to my prepared testimony on the led ammunition survey.

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Let's take a couple minutes if I do want to put this on the record, Mr. Chair.

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In June 2014, the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife and the Oregon State University Wildlife Extension Unit began surveying

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The Oregon Hunters regarding their opinions and attitudes about lead ammunition, available alternatives, and strategies to use in other locations to reduce the use of lead ammunition.

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A survey of the non-hanging public is currently underway as well.

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The survey effort was prompted due to the increasing effort to restore California condors throughout their historic range, which includes portions of Oregon.

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California condors have been the subject of an intensive, high-profile recovery effort since

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1980s when the condor population dwindled to just 22 birds.

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An intensive captive breeding program was initiated, including a facility operated by the

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Oregon Zoo.

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In 1992, condors were released, released in California, and in Arizona, 1996 by the

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United States Fish Wildlife Service.

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More recently, the service began discussions with the Yurak tribe of Northern California,

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regarding our lease site on tribal land south of the Oregon border.

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A memorandum of understanding was signed in March of this year,

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setting the stage for potential releases in Northern California in the near future.

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According to the Fish Wildlife Service, the primary cause of condom mortality is lead poisoning

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with lead ammunition is the primary source.

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The service states that while their lead exposure sources may exist for instance,

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chain tips, sciences clearly shown that condors are primarily supposed to lead by ingesting

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lead shot or fragments of lead bullets when feeding on carcasses.

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Lead rifle bullets fragment to hundreds of tiny pieces when they strike an animal and are left

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behind in the gut pile.

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And those are quotes from the service.

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According to the FishWive Service Documents, this threat and others must be addressed in a

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meaningful way in any proposal to reintroduce condors.

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The service uses the California legislation banning the use of land ammunition for hunting as an example.

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Voluntary programs in Arizona, Utah, are also identified as successful strategies to

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Reduce Condor exposure to let ammunition. These voluntary programs supported by a coalition of state and federal agencies, non-governmental organizations, industry and weedailers, include ammunition exchanges, incentives, education programs, and other efforts to encourage hunters to voluntarily switch to non-led ammunition area areas where condors are present.

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California condors are far-ranging and are known to fly as much as 150 miles a day in

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search of food. As a result, any condors released in Northern California can be expected

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to appear in Southern Oregon, where they will have full protection of the federal and dangerous

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species act. In addition, there is interest by tribes and other organizations to seek

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California condors reintroduced in Oregon. Once condors appear in Oregon, the Department

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respects that the state will be required to take some action to reduce condor exposure to

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lead.

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Did a part of an expects advocacy groups to pursue litigation, or from post legislation,

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or about measure, to completely ban or significantly restrict the use of lead ammunition

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for hunting?

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During the past few years, advocacy groups, like the Center for Biological Diversity, have repeatedly

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filed lawsuits or evitations challenging the use of lead ammunition, especially in

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as preconceived by condors. Similar legal challenges can be expected when condors appear in

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Oregon. And now right ban on the use of late ammunition for hunting could have a significant

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impact on hunting, wildlife management, and ODFW funding. Hunting is an important tool for

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managing wildlife populations. Additionally, we're having new from the sale of hunting and

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fishing licenses, and new latest federal exercise tax on firearms, ammunition, fishing

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Rod's tackle and other equipment provides more than 40% of the department's funding.

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Without this funding, the department would be unable to fulfill the statutory responsibility

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to manage Oregon's fishing activities and the joint with the president and future generations.

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Because of the significant potential impact of this issue, O.D.F.N.W. collaborated with the

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Oregon State University to survey hunters and the general public on lead ammunition, available

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alternatives, and strategy used in other locations.

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The Oregon State University Research Center, which has extensive experience conducting public

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opinion surveys, was contracted to conduct a survey and to collect the data for ODEF and

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W and the OSU Wildlife Extension Unit.

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The information gathered from the survey effort will be critical and future discussions

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regarding condors and any related discussions regarding lead ammunition.

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As the states, while if match an agency, the Department of Fellows should take the lead on assessing

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hundred opinions, rather than having to respond to surveys conducted by other organizations

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that may not accurately reflect the views of hunters and the public.

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A scientific survey conducted by a respected professional organization should minimize bias and

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ensure that the views of hunters and the public are represented as fairly as possible.

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The preliminary results of this survey are expected early in 2015.

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The survey effort is not, as some alleged, the first step towards a ban on lead ammunition.

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There are no proposals or plans by the Department or Commission to ban and restrict the use of lead ammunition.

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The use of lead ammunition for hunting is legal and organ with a general exception of waterfowl hunting.

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The Department sees no reason to change that.

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A well-designed voluntary program should be sufficient to meet FishWide Service requirements to address

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led exposure, should condors appear in Oregon.

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The survey results will be useful in developing that program, should have become necessary.

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In closing, the department is gathering hunter and public input, so that we are prepared for the eventual reappearance of condors in Oregon.

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Do anything less would be of the service to hunters, the public, and Oregon's Fish Wildlife Resources.

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Thank you, Mr. Chair.

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Thank you very much.

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Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

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Ron Anglin, wildlife division administrator for the department.

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You also have a copy of our PowerPoint presentation.

428
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:21,360
So I won't hit on every one of the slides simply to help with timing,

429
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,600
But I will focus in on a few of them that I think would be really helpful to you.

430
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,500
As Roya said, the condors are the focus of why we're in this survey.

431
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:40,260
When you look at the historic range of condors here in Oregon, they obviously covered

432
00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:42,360
a good portion of the state.

433
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,960
They're first documented by European man by Lewis and Clark.

434
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,960
And the last known condor in the state was actually killed in southwest Oregon in the mid-30s.

435
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,060
Currently condorers are found in several relief sites down California.

436
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:25,780
And the California areas are under full ESA protection and the relief sites over in Arizona were part of an experimental, non-essential population, which actually allows more flexibility for Arizona game and fish in how they manage programs and allow them to really pursue their voluntary lead program that we'll talk about here in a second.

437
00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:31,780
Roy's already hit on the threats that have been identified to condors by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

438
00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:37,840
They're the ones that are driving this on the recovery effort, so I won't go into that much more.

439
00:40:38,740 --> 00:40:41,480
You're all aware of the California ban.

440
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,180
That was not something that was proposed by the California Commission,

441
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,980
but it was something that their legislature decided to take up

442
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:57,020
up and is something that obviously all the states around California were watching with a

443
00:40:57,020 --> 00:41:02,600
great deal of interest because of the condor concerns and reintroduction of the birds

444
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,960
and how that might impact other states.

445
00:41:08,370 --> 00:41:13,410
Arizona, as I said, was allowed to implement a voluntary program.

446
00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:15,610
They've been very successful with that.

447
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:45,590
One of the things that they have done was they pulled together a stakeholder group to really talk about the program, they did hunter surveys and general public surveys and that's some of the recommendations they actually have made to other states that have been told that they will likely have contours in the near future is don't wait until the birds show up, get out ahead of it and start working on what you might want to do.

448
00:41:45,590 --> 00:41:53,150
need to deal with and finding out what your constituents really think. Utah just recently

449
00:41:53,150 --> 00:41:59,910
ended up with condors in the state coming from Arizona and Utah under the federal

450
00:41:59,910 --> 00:42:05,130
ESA also has had to deal with the lead issue in their hunting seasons in the southwest

451
00:42:05,130 --> 00:42:12,130
portion of the state and they've been following Arizona's example with a voluntary exchange

452
00:42:12,130 --> 00:42:20,030
program. This kind of gives you an example of bird movement from the release sites there in the

453
00:42:20,030 --> 00:42:27,230
Grand Canyon in Arizona. The birds moving into Colorado and up to Montana are Wyoming and

454
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:35,150
back is a movement of about 250 miles altogether. It's not unusual for bird to move 150 miles in

455
00:42:35,150 --> 00:42:43,730
day and move back. Here's an example of one GPS colored bird down in California and the Central Valley

456
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:50,950
and showing its movements over about a three week period of time ranging from nearly down

457
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:58,030
down to the grapevine and the Tahone ranch up on top of grapevine just south of Bakersfield

458
00:42:58,570 --> 00:43:02,290
all the way to the north up to San Jose.

459
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:10,550
So what does that mean for us, as Roy mentioned, the service as entered into agreements with the

460
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:19,010
Yurok tribe, we expect that there will be releases within 2 to 5 years on the reservation in Northern

461
00:43:19,010 --> 00:43:19,510
California.

462
00:43:20,450 --> 00:43:26,490
And the graph on the left or the picture on the left kind of shows where the Yurok reservation

463
00:43:26,490 --> 00:43:35,410
is the picture on the right. Each one of those arrows represents a hundred miles. So based on

464
00:43:35,410 --> 00:43:41,290
what we know about the birds, the birds, it kind of gives you a feel for what we would expect

465
00:43:41,930 --> 00:43:49,210
once birds start moving, where we would expect them to show up and the service would then be looking at

466
00:43:50,190 --> 00:43:54,350
ESA take from lead in Oregon.

467
00:43:56,370 --> 00:44:01,330
Again, Arizona and Utah both have told us get out ahead of it.

468
00:44:01,390 --> 00:44:10,710
Don't wait and anything you can do as soon as possible to understand what your constituents think is well worth it.

469
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:17,210
And that's what led us as Roy said into the survey effort and wine to know what our primary

470
00:44:17,210 --> 00:44:18,370
constituents think.

471
00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:24,310
And we felt very strongly that we needed to know that.

472
00:44:24,850 --> 00:44:32,190
And then finally, we'll have the results, let this fall early winter and make all those

473
00:44:32,190 --> 00:44:38,450
available to the public, to the legislature, you know, the led issue itself.

474
00:44:38,450 --> 00:44:45,950
I've been talking with sport group leaders, conservation group leaders, and boards of some

475
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:52,790
of the statewide groups now for about three years, about condors and lead, and warning them

476
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:59,030
that things are happening and that we can likely see it happening and coming into the state.

477
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:06,640
The service has moved even closer to making that happen. That concludes our presentation.

478
00:45:07,460 --> 00:45:11,880
Thank you very much. Gentlemen, certainly appreciate your appearance.

479
00:45:14,020 --> 00:45:18,560
Can you give us just kind of a 30,000 foot

480
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,680
a look-see of what a voluntary plan might entail.

481
00:45:26,740 --> 00:45:27,660
Yes, Mr. Chair.

482
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:36,080
What the program that's held up as the example is what's happened in Arizona.

483
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:44,480
And in Arizona, they have partnered up with various industry organizations,

484
00:45:44,820 --> 00:45:47,300
sporting good stores and hunting community.

485
00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:55,220
They've received special allocations of funding from their legislature and they conduct an ammo exchange.

486
00:45:56,420 --> 00:46:10,080
And so they'll give a person a coupon that you can take that coupon in and turn in a box of lead ammunition and get a free box of lead alternative copper ammunition.

487
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,120
And in addition to that, they know that there's people that don't want to make that change,

488
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:22,520
so they have a gut pile retrieval in pretty gross terms program that they've implemented,

489
00:46:22,860 --> 00:46:28,840
that if you bring your gut pile in the awful out of the woods and bring that into a check station,

490
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:36,600
then they enter you into a drawing for items that have been donated by various organizations.

491
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:42,820
And so it can be from ATVs, to guns, camping equipment, things like that.

492
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:49,180
And Arizona has had between 80% and 90% compliance under their voluntary program.

493
00:46:49,660 --> 00:46:57,380
That has been challenged by some of the non-governmental organizations out there that they were

494
00:46:57,380 --> 00:47:02,480
taken to court over that and the court and services taken to court over it and the court

495
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:08,340
held the voluntary program as appropriate and as a way to address the threat.

496
00:47:09,380 --> 00:47:15,620
Thank you very much. Representative Krieger, and then committee members, we're going to probably have to move on. I apologize.

497
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:26,400
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You didn't want to do anything about the migration time a year, like our

498
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,300
March, did these birds have summer-type adored you know?

499
00:47:30,980 --> 00:47:37,620
Chair Whit, Representative Krieger, we don't know 100% for sure what will happen here in Oregon.

500
00:47:38,220 --> 00:47:42,660
There's some speculation that Oregon may have been a summer area historically

501
00:47:42,660 --> 00:47:46,080
and that in the wintertime it was wet enough and damp enough.

502
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:52,720
Condors really need thermals to be able to move and that in the wintertime that they may have gone south.

503
00:47:52,720 --> 00:48:19,480
They certainly in the Arizona Utah area have seen similar type movements, that birds will move out of the Grand Canyon up into Utah during the summertime, and they first started being noticed around sheep allotments on federal forest land in southwestern Utah, and then as hunting seasons and everything kind of come to a conclusion and the grazing allotments are closed down for the winter.

504
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,740
the birds tend to move back into the canyon in Arizona.

505
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:24,740
Okay, thank you.

506
00:48:24,860 --> 00:48:26,480
Sheldon, thank you very, very much.

507
00:48:27,500 --> 00:48:31,800
And Roy, the federal government's getting a great day.

508
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,180
I'd like to call up next, please.

509
00:48:36,740 --> 00:48:38,900
Dan Edge and Colin Eagle Smith, please.

510
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:43,340
Welcome to our committee.

511
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:49,970
Chair, with members of the committee, for the record, my name is Dan Edge.

512
00:48:50,090 --> 00:48:54,470
I'm the Department Head and Department of Fisheries and Wildlife at Oregon State University.

513
00:48:54,470 --> 00:49:03,630
I'm just going to take a couple of minutes to sort of set the stage and then I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Colin Eagle Smith who really is the expert.

514
00:49:03,750 --> 00:49:14,290
We were asked to provide some information regarding the impact of lead on condors and other wildlife and part of me that's what Colin will do.

515
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:19,790
But knowing that this is probably an issue that will come again before this body.

516
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:29,970
I did want to at least a prize you of what the expertise is at Oregon State University relative to this type of information and so very quickly

517
00:49:29,970 --> 00:49:38,790
We have several people that have at least some expertise or some interest in the issue Dr. Dana Sanchez is an extension wildlife specialist that

518
00:49:39,950 --> 00:49:48,230
ODF and W. mentioned who worked with them to design the survey and to implement the survey through the survey research center.

519
00:49:48,750 --> 00:49:59,210
Dr. Sanchez actually is a mammal habitat ecologist, but she has a special interest in what we call human dimensions of fish and wildlife management, which is sort of this sociology.

520
00:50:01,780 --> 00:50:10,420
As a former Fish and Wildlife Commissioner, I'd say I'm very proud of ODIF and W. Engaging with Dr. Sanchez on this.

521
00:50:11,020 --> 00:50:21,680
This information on this survey will be critical in informing policy and management decisions. So delighted to see them get ahead of the situation.

522
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:28,180
We have another professor, Dr. Clinton Eps, who is an associate professor of wildlife ecology.

523
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:35,840
Mostly as a geneticist, but he is a long time competitor, rifle competitor and is interested

524
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,320
in ballistic research.

525
00:50:37,580 --> 00:50:48,800
I believe I pass the committee a paper that he wrote recently entitled, considering the

526
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:55,300
switch challenges of transitioning to non-led hunting ammunition and which he lines out what some

527
00:50:55,300 --> 00:51:02,020
of the many challenges are going to be if hunters decide that they want to switch. It's not

528
00:51:02,020 --> 00:51:06,160
a simple proposition as we've already heard.

529
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,700
Dr. Susan Hague is a courtesy professor of wildlife

530
00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:21,480
and USGS senior scientists working, she basically is a small population

531
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:28,000
demographer and has worked on condor recovery, specifically related to

532
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:33,580
population genetics. She and her graduate student just recently published a book on

533
00:51:34,220 --> 00:51:39,260
condors and a Pacific Northwest, which has all the historical information about

534
00:51:39,260 --> 00:51:41,700
where we think they occurred.

535
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,820
Other expertise at Oregon State University, of course there's the entire department of molecular

536
00:51:49,820 --> 00:51:51,360
environmental toxicology.

537
00:51:51,860 --> 00:51:58,920
So this committee becomes interested in environmental faith, risk assessment, or human health

538
00:51:58,920 --> 00:51:59,620
concerns.

539
00:52:00,100 --> 00:52:04,080
I would recommend you contact Dr. Craig Marcus, who is the department head.

540
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:09,820
And so now I'm going to yield my time to Dr. Colin Egel Smith.

541
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:15,160
He's a courtesy assistant professor in our department, and it's a supervisory research

542
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,000
ecologist with USGS.

543
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:25,820
He is an expert in toxicology and wildlife health type issues in particular is interesting

544
00:52:25,820 --> 00:52:32,540
the interactions of ecological processes and contaminant bio accumulation and effects on wild

545
00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:33,120
populations.

546
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:49,020
He's also co-author with Dr. Susan Hague of another chapter in the book that I just referenced and I believe the committee has that copy and with those introductory marks, I yield my time to Dr. Eagles.

547
00:52:49,780 --> 00:52:51,720
Thank you very much and welcome.

548
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,580
Thank you. Thank you, Chair Whit and members of the committee for the record. My name is Colin Eaglesmith with the US Geological Survey.

549
00:52:57,580 --> 00:53:04,840
My lab focuses largely research on the bio-accumulation and exposure of environmental contaminants

550
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,940
in wildlife and fish and that ecotoxicological effects of those contaminants on AV and fish

551
00:53:10,940 --> 00:53:11,440
communities.

552
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,260
I mean, it used my time today to talk briefly about the background of lead as environmental

553
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:21,920
contaminants and what we know about exposure in wildlife communities and the potential

554
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,680
impacts to those wildlife species.

555
00:53:24,340 --> 00:53:28,220
I'm not going to touch too much on the actual effects of California condor,

556
00:53:28,340 --> 00:53:32,640
Dr. Finkelstein is here and she's an expert on that, so I'm going to yield that discussion

557
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:33,120
to her.

558
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,760
So, let it is a naturally occurring element in geological material.

559
00:53:37,260 --> 00:53:40,460
It's distribution and occurrence in the environment has been increased dramatically

560
00:53:40,460 --> 00:53:42,840
over the last several hundred years due to human activities.

561
00:53:44,580 --> 00:53:47,280
And it's a neurotoxin known to impair reproduction.

562
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,060
It can also impact behavior and various physiological processes.

563
00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:58,060
The toxicological effects of lead have been linked to a number of human derived sources, including

564
00:53:58,060 --> 00:54:06,680
consumption exposure to lead-paint chips in wildlife, as well as mining and smelting processes,

565
00:54:07,780 --> 00:54:09,960
sinkers and fishing tackle and ammunition.

566
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:15,420
Those are all sources of lead that have been documented associated with various effects in different fish and wildlife species.

567
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:24,540
We're here today because the concern about lead in hunting ammunition is acute, largely because

568
00:54:24,540 --> 00:54:29,300
when lead is releasing the environment as ammunition, it's released into habitats where

569
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:34,680
wildlife co-car, and fragments that are left behind in gut piles are essentially left

570
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,920
behind in a food resource for scavengers and other wildlife species.

571
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,520
Modern light court bullets are designed to expand and plant impact, they distribute their

572
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:50,020
through the wound channel. And so you don't have one large slug in an organism. You have a

573
00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:53,740
number of very small fragments that are distributed along the course of the wound channel.

574
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:59,960
This results in two things. First, the small fragments have a larger surface area than one large slug.

575
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:13,900
So that can increase the assimilation absorption of lead into the digestive tract. Secondarily, in scavengers and other social foraging species, you can have more than one individual exposed when you have the lead distributed through a carcass.

576
00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:24,100
So things like vultures or condors that forage socially, you can have multiple individuals exposed to lead when they're forging on a carcass that does have lead fragments in them.

577
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:32,340
The stomach acids dissolve the lead and it can then assimilate into the circulatory system where it elisits a range of physiological effects.

578
00:55:32,420 --> 00:55:41,120
Two of the most prevalent and common effects that we see in wildlife are the inhibition of blood-protein hemsynthesis.

579
00:55:41,820 --> 00:55:52,160
So it's the precursor to hemoglobin, it can result in anemia, and then a very deleterious effect we see is neurological impacts in various wildlife species.

580
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:57,980
and this is largely due to the fact that lead mimics calcium in vertebrate properties, and calcium

581
00:55:57,980 --> 00:56:03,120
is an important component of nerve signaling, and so it can actually block the movement

582
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:10,760
of nerve signals through an organism resulting in altered foraging behavior in lethargy and

583
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,600
poor coordination ultimately poor survival.

584
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:26,660
One of the complications in understanding lead risk in wildlife is that there's limited

585
00:56:26,660 --> 00:56:32,080
actual, despite the fact we've been researching this for decades, there is very limited information

586
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:37,220
on strong toxicological benchmarks across a range of species. There's very good knowledge

587
00:56:37,220 --> 00:56:42,700
on a few species that have been very well studied, not very clear understanding of the baseline

588
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:48,680
effects and concentrations that elicit effects in wildlife across a range of species at lower concentrations.

589
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:55,420
There's also a lot of variation in the sensitivity of different species to exposure to lead,

590
00:56:55,420 --> 00:56:59,000
So a recent scientific survey of scientific publications

591
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,800
over 80 publications were surveyed in this review found

592
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,840
that when looking at the highest concentration

593
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,320
that would cause no observable effects across a range

594
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,900
of different species, there was a 1600 fold range

595
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:21,180
in that concentration that caused no effects across species.

596
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,740
When you look at the concentrations in blood,

597
00:57:24,260 --> 00:57:33,500
There's a less of a range about 50 fold range and that lowest affects concentration, but still tremendous variation in different species and their sensitivities to lead.

598
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:42,600
So you can't use a benchmark developed for a quail and apply it to a lead concentration that you might measure in the blood of a golden eagle or a condor.

599
00:57:43,620 --> 00:57:48,420
And there's a limited information of what the toxicological thresholds are of those other species.

600
00:57:50,420 --> 00:57:53,560
And moving on to wildlife exposure to lead ammunition.

601
00:57:53,780 --> 00:57:56,660
I'm going to stick to an example of big game largely.

602
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,260
There are a number of vectors associated with lead-based ammunition,

603
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,700
but when the urban studies on deer shot with a single bullet

604
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,640
and hundreds of fragments have been left behind in the carcass

605
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,800
and on average about 160 small fragments are left in the gut piles.

606
00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:16,060
The species obviously most likely to be exposed to those fragments

607
00:58:16,060 --> 00:58:21,460
are scavenging species, such as turkey veltures, condors, ravens, and raptors, there's

608
00:58:21,460 --> 00:58:22,900
eagles and hawks.

609
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:30,000
For those species to be exposed, do you need to have overlap in both space and time?

610
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,020
So understanding the life history strategy of the species, condors, or any other species,

611
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,300
and the spatial and temporal distribution of hunting activities and the distribution of

612
00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:40,620
light in the environment is very important.

613
00:58:41,580 --> 00:58:46,040
Dr. Egel Smith, I apologize sir, but can you, can you, can you

614
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:52,280
wrap this up? Could you, yes, hit the high points? Absolutely. Thank you. I almost

615
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:59,140
don't. Recent work in Wyoming has found that during the hunting season, about 47% of

616
00:58:59,140 --> 00:59:05,240
ravens were exposed to elevated levels of blood in their blood, outside the hunting season,

617
00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:10,800
2% of ravens were exposed to lead. Similarly in California, during the hunting season,

618
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:15,960
cultures, where twice is likely to be exposed to lead in the lead concentrations in their blood,

619
00:59:15,980 --> 00:59:20,040
where about twice is high as during the non-hunting season.

620
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:26,320
So, finally, moving into what we know about lead in Oregon and lead in a while like life

621
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,540
in Oregon, that's a tremendous data gap.

622
00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:33,540
There's very little information about exposure rates in free-flying wild birds.

623
00:59:33,580 --> 00:59:38,200
There's a lot of information from rehabilitation communities, and the information they provide

624
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:44,300
is great for birds that are sick or injured, however we know very little about free-flying

625
00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:49,620
or free-ringed wild species in the state. We're currently doing research at USGS, looking

626
00:59:49,620 --> 00:59:56,620
at scavengers across the states. We have collected blood samples from about 465 birds

627
00:59:56,620 --> 00:59:59,960
over the last two to three years, and we expect those, we're looking forward to

628
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,900
When it results to be out in the next 6-12 months, at which point that will really help facilitate

629
01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:10,600
an understanding of potential hotspots of exposure for condors or other wildlife species in the state.

630
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:12,420
Thank you.

631
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,760
Thank you very, very much. Gentlemen, I appreciate your testimony.

632
01:00:18,460 --> 01:00:23,960
Committee members, I just don't have time to open it up to general questions, but if someone

633
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:29,000
has that burning question that you feel needs to be asked to clarify anything.

634
01:00:29,740 --> 01:00:31,940
I would accept the question.

635
01:00:32,220 --> 01:00:33,880
I do have a question.

636
01:00:33,900 --> 01:00:34,620
I'll present a question.

637
01:00:36,340 --> 01:00:41,300
I was wondering what caused the initial decline in the condor in the 1970s.

638
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,940
I understood it was thinning shells from pesticides.

639
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:45,840
Is that correct?

640
01:00:47,220 --> 01:00:51,240
The thinning shells from pesticides was one factor in the decline, yes.

641
01:00:51,740 --> 01:00:55,000
There's the thought that lead was a contributing factor as well as

642
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:01,760
actual shooting of the condors for feathers and other things and exposure to DDT and other pesticides

643
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,240
resulted in thin egg shells and inability of them to use.

644
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:11,460
That's what I was told, but I would assume that we've now had a recovery.

645
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:17,960
There is some evidence that the sun birds foraging along the coastlines are still receiving

646
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:23,520
elevated levels of DDT, or actually it's breakdown product, DDE, and there have been,

647
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,180
at least a few egg shells that have been recovered recently

648
01:01:26,180 --> 01:01:27,500
that have been fined.

649
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,840
So these are a birds along the Southern California

650
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,160
by it where they're still as elevated concentrations

651
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:34,300
of DDE in the sediments.

652
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:36,420
So we really don't know what's causing.

653
01:01:37,420 --> 01:01:40,580
I mean, we can't say there is a single source

654
01:01:40,580 --> 01:01:43,320
of this causing the condorers to decline

655
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,220
given that they're back on the upswing after the 1970s.

656
01:01:47,500 --> 01:01:50,240
So I just want to establish that we don't know

657
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:55,700
that led is causing the decline of the condor or is actually a problem.

658
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,240
I think Dr. Finkelstein can speak to that.

659
01:01:59,380 --> 01:02:00,840
Gentlemen, thank you very, very much.

660
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:02,060
I appreciate your appearance.

661
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,540
With that, I'd like to call forward please.

662
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:15,260
Professor Finkelstein and Deborah Schaefer, please.

663
01:02:25,590 --> 01:02:34,090
I'm going to have to ask, please, respect the process. We have a lot of people to testify.

664
01:02:37,730 --> 01:02:44,690
Welcome to our committee. Thank you for your parents. Please introduce yourselves and proceed.

665
01:02:47,310 --> 01:02:50,050
Hello, Chair Whit, and the members of the committee.

666
01:02:50,250 --> 01:02:51,710
Thank you, I'm honored to be here today.

667
01:02:51,930 --> 01:02:56,110
My name is Dr. Finkelstein, and I've been setting the effects of environmental impacts

668
01:02:56,110 --> 01:03:00,450
from lead poisoning on wildlife species, including California conders over the last 10 years.

669
01:03:00,910 --> 01:03:04,230
I would like to say that I've published work that demonstrates that lead poisoning from

670
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:09,990
spent lead ammunition is the number one or for the cause of mortality for California conders

671
01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:14,510
in California, and we've showed that the mortality related directly to lead poisoning

672
01:03:14,510 --> 01:03:18,430
from ingesting spent-led ammunition is preventing the recovery of the California

673
01:03:18,430 --> 01:03:23,190
Condor in California. So that's been published. I'd be happy to pass that out to anyone.

674
01:03:25,030 --> 01:03:29,910
I also just wanted to briefly address one other point that was raised and that was that

675
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:34,450
although the volunteer programs in Arizona have been incredibly successful in terms of participation

676
01:03:34,450 --> 01:03:41,030
rates of 90%. We have yet to see that translate to an impact or to a significant reduction

677
01:03:41,030 --> 01:03:43,710
And the number of dead contours led poisoning.

678
01:03:44,670 --> 01:03:47,610
So there seems to be a lot of people participating, but we have not seen that translated

679
01:03:47,610 --> 01:03:50,170
into fewer dead dead poison contours.

680
01:03:51,010 --> 01:03:55,810
Some of the work that we've also published has illustrated that very low-carcass contamination

681
01:03:55,810 --> 01:04:00,990
rates across the landscape can actually still result in a high probability that an individual

682
01:04:00,990 --> 01:04:03,370
scavenger or california contours led poisoned.

683
01:04:04,210 --> 01:04:05,970
And some of that work is actually in your package.

684
01:04:05,970 --> 01:04:22,110
So, I'm moving on to my more general testimony as Dr. Egel testified that is one of the most well-study toxins, and there's a vast amount of scientific evidence that shows that lead is toxic to multiple physiological systems across multiple vertebrates species.

685
01:04:22,670 --> 01:04:33,050
For children, lead is particularly susceptible to blood poisoning, and there's currently no level of lead exposure known to be without long-term cognitive impairment for children, none.

686
01:04:33,970 --> 01:04:38,270
To help inform the public about the effects of spend-led ammunition on human wildlife health

687
01:04:38,270 --> 01:04:44,130
in March of 2013, I joined with 29 other scientists, the world's leading experts, including

688
01:04:44,130 --> 01:04:48,250
physicians, veterinarians, toxicologists, and wildlife biologists in the field of lead

689
01:04:48,250 --> 01:04:52,450
and environmental health to release a consensus statement of scientists, which is also in your

690
01:04:52,450 --> 01:04:52,790
packet.

691
01:04:53,970 --> 01:04:57,870
As a co-author of this consensus statement, I can affirm that this was an unbiased assessment

692
01:04:57,870 --> 01:04:59,610
of the best scientific evidence.

693
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,680
State's lead is a powerful toxicant, harmful to human health in the environment, and that the discharge

694
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:11,180
from lead ammunition from activity such as hunting, potentially exposes wildlife in humans to detrimental

695
01:05:11,180 --> 01:05:18,040
amounts of lead. Lead-based ammunition production is the second largest annual use of lead in the United

696
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:24,120
States, and consequently lead-based ammunition is likely the greatest largely unregulated source

697
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,740
of lead knowingly discharged into the environment in the United States.

698
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,580
In contrast, other significant sources of lead in the environment such as

699
01:05:32,580 --> 01:05:38,480
blooded paint, and lead in gasoline are recognized as harmful and have been significantly reduced

700
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:43,620
or eliminated over the last 50 years. Lead bullets used to shoot wildlife as Dr. Eagle Smith

701
01:05:43,620 --> 01:05:49,020
attested can fragment a hundred small pieces with large proportions being sufficiently small

702
01:05:49,020 --> 01:05:54,000
to be easily ingested by scavenging animals or incorporated into process meat for human

703
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,520
consumption, and published studies have documented this occurrence.

704
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,300
Lead poisoning from the gestant of spent-led ammunition, fragments poses a particularly

705
01:06:02,300 --> 01:06:07,240
serious threat for scavenging species, including california condors, but also golden

706
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:11,120
eagles, bald eagles, ravens, and turkey vultures, and published studies have documented

707
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:15,860
that organ wildlife is also affected by lead poisoning, and it was probably from lead poisoning

708
01:06:15,860 --> 01:06:18,540
from ingesting spent-led ammunition from hunting.

709
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,640
Our published work illustrates that even a small numbers, what I said earlier, led

710
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:27,560
containing carcasses across the landscape can lead to a high probability that a scavenging

711
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:28,960
species is less exposed.

712
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,380
And given the vast body of scientific evidence demonstrating that the use of lead in ammunition

713
01:06:33,380 --> 01:06:37,720
is a serious threat to human wildlife health, the conclusion of our consensus is a statement

714
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:38,340
of scientists.

715
01:06:38,780 --> 01:06:43,560
Again, made up of 30 of the world's leading experts on lead in an environment on human health.

716
01:06:44,820 --> 01:06:49,700
Was that given the availability of non-led alternative products for hunting, reducing and

717
01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:53,540
eventually eliminating the introduction of lead into the environment, from lead based ammunition

718
01:06:53,540 --> 01:06:57,160
is a reasonable and equitable action to protect human wildlife health.

719
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:58,340
Thank you.

720
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:00,340
Thank you very, very much.

721
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:02,120
Dr. Shafer.

722
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,180
Good afternoon, Chair Whit and members of the committee.

723
01:07:05,460 --> 01:07:06,940
My name is Dr. Deborah Shafer.

724
01:07:07,020 --> 01:07:11,600
I'm a wildlife veterinarian with over 20 years of experience treating injured wildlife.

725
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,540
Serving as the wildlife veterinarian at the Audit Bons Society of Portland's Wildlife

726
01:07:15,540 --> 01:07:17,360
Care Center for the past 10 years.

727
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,160
We treat approximately 3,000 injured wild animals per year.

728
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:26,260
Today, I'm here representing the Audubon Society of Portland and our 15,000 members.

729
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,280
I'm here to convey a very simple message.

730
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:30,480
Let us poison.

731
01:07:30,980 --> 01:07:35,940
We abandon lead from gasoline, paint, and other uses because of its toxic effects.

732
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:42,240
It is banned from use and waterfell hunting because of well-documented impacts on ducks, peace, and swans.

733
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:46,580
However, we continue to allow lead to be used in other forms of hunting.

734
01:07:46,580 --> 01:08:00,220
We knowingly and intentionally shoot huge quantities of lead into the environment and what's in the environment it can enter the food chain through either direct ingestion or through scavaging of gut piles or carcasses left in the environment.

735
01:08:01,220 --> 01:08:03,440
And please make no mistake this does happen.

736
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:14,780
Each year wildlife hospitals across Oregon and across the United States devote huge resources to treat bald and golden eagles and other species that have been impacted by this unnecessary and avoidable threat.

737
01:08:14,780 --> 01:08:19,780
Lead poisoning can happen rapidly or can accumulate in an animal system over time.

738
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:28,220
It takes a very small amount of lead, as mentioned previously, today, just a fragment to cause potentially lethal impacts.

739
01:08:28,940 --> 01:08:32,360
Lead poisoning affects essentially all organ systems.

740
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:40,580
Symptoms can include weakness, disorientation, emaciation, anemia, seizures, blindness, and other other signs.

741
01:08:40,580 --> 01:08:48,340
I have to say, lead poison cases are some of the saddest cases we see in our hospital, they are truly suffering animals.

742
01:08:48,620 --> 01:08:51,680
By the time they reach us, most of them cannot be saved.

743
01:08:52,140 --> 01:08:56,500
And for those that do survive, the recovery can take months and cost thousands of dollars.

744
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:04,240
One example is an adult bottle that came into our center from long view last year and was treated at our facility.

745
01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:06,760
It took four weeks of intense therapy.

746
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:11,640
and then three months more every of the protests and so it could gain strength and

747
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,200
conditioning to be suitable for really back to the wild.

748
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,760
Some will tell you that the unnecessary and wasteful death of a wild animal for

749
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,220
lead poison is not a matter for concern.

750
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:22,640
They're wrong.

751
01:09:23,260 --> 01:09:27,220
First of all, we know that what we are seeing in wildlife hospitals across the United

752
01:09:27,220 --> 01:09:28,840
States is just the tip of the iceberg.

753
01:09:29,380 --> 01:09:32,260
Most wild animals that suffer lead poisoning are never recovered.

754
01:09:32,260 --> 01:09:39,340
These deaths for the most part occur in remote places in the natural instinct of a wild animal when it is sick as to hide.

755
01:09:39,620 --> 01:09:45,560
The fact that wildlife hospitals see as many poisoned animals as they do is indicative of a far larger problem.

756
01:09:46,260 --> 01:09:51,880
Second, the wasteful and completely unnecessary deaths of our native wildlife should not be something we accept.

757
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,200
Most of these species are protected at the federal and state level.

758
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,960
Some of them, such as bald eagle, we've spent decades and millions of dollars.

759
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:13,820
Allers recovering. Just as we work to reduce poaching electricutions, other forms of poisoning, and to restore habitat, we should also be working diligently to reduce the toxic impacts of lead on these species.

760
01:10:14,980 --> 01:10:26,640
Finally, I don't believe that if anyone in this room actually saw a bald eagle suffering the effects of lead poisoning, they could stay in here and say that it does not matter. Lead poisoning is a horrendous, sad way to die.

761
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,560
The impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife are well documented.

762
01:10:30,940 --> 01:10:35,420
There are alternative to lead, just as we have done with gasoline, paint, and numerous

763
01:10:35,420 --> 01:10:40,480
other sources of environmental lead, it's time to get the lead out of our ammunition

764
01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:41,480
use for hunting.

765
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:42,860
Thank you.

766
01:10:42,980 --> 01:10:44,600
Thank you very, very much.

767
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:51,700
Committee members, limited questions for doctors at Finkelstein and Shafer.

768
01:10:57,290 --> 01:11:03,790
What was the method of exposure was in gestion of the lead?

769
01:11:04,450 --> 01:11:06,010
How was that exposure?

770
01:11:06,450 --> 01:11:07,330
How did that occur?

771
01:11:08,930 --> 01:11:11,090
Well, you mentioned the ball legal.

772
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:15,570
Yes, it was in gestion, and actually in that ball legal, we were actually the first

773
01:11:15,570 --> 01:11:21,610
it came in, able to see radiographic evidence of metal in its stomach, but it was by in gestion.

774
01:11:24,130 --> 01:11:28,110
Thank you both very, very much, appreciate your appearance.

775
01:11:29,230 --> 01:11:36,330
With that, I'd like to call forward, please, stand still, Kevin Starrot, and Dan Reed.

776
01:11:44,010 --> 01:11:50,370
And gentlemen, to the extent that you can be brief and to the point it would be greatly appreciated.

777
01:11:52,530 --> 01:11:53,650
Welcome to our committee.

778
01:11:54,410 --> 01:11:54,630
Thank you.

779
01:11:54,730 --> 01:11:56,710
Thank you for making yourselves available.

780
01:11:56,710 --> 01:11:59,950
Please decide among yourselves who goes first.

781
01:12:01,030 --> 01:12:03,250
Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, my name is Dan Reed.

782
01:12:03,810 --> 01:12:05,850
I state liaison with the National Rifle Association.

783
01:12:06,710 --> 01:12:10,090
I want to thank you for having us here and allowing us to be part of this

784
01:12:10,090 --> 01:12:12,150
informational hearing on this led survey.

785
01:12:12,850 --> 01:12:16,270
I know personally a lot of far organ members have reached out to me with concerns

786
01:12:16,270 --> 01:12:20,250
with a number of editorial that have been running the papers and this campaign

787
01:12:20,250 --> 01:12:25,730
along with the survey that came out with biodefW and OSU.

788
01:12:25,730 --> 01:12:28,790
I just wanted to point something out.

789
01:12:28,930 --> 01:12:35,970
I want you, I'm encouraging the members of this does come before the committee to really look at the science and look at it hard and the underlying data.

790
01:12:36,610 --> 01:12:38,750
One of the messages we heard today was lead is back.

791
01:12:39,070 --> 01:12:39,690
We heard that.

792
01:12:40,270 --> 01:12:46,230
And I didn't hear anyone point out the difference in elemental lead in industrial lead.

793
01:12:46,570 --> 01:12:48,450
And we heard about legacy pain and gasoline.

794
01:12:49,070 --> 01:12:51,630
And we heard about bullets and they all got lumped into one category.

795
01:12:52,070 --> 01:12:53,230
But they're very different.

796
01:12:53,230 --> 01:13:03,410
Let ammunition is an elemental lead, which is much different as much different characteristics and there's much different exposure compared to the industrial lead.

797
01:13:03,510 --> 01:13:11,610
So I really encourage you to look at that, look at these studies, see how the science was being performed, what's the underlying basis for it.

798
01:13:11,610 --> 01:13:18,730
Now, the reason that you call the hearing today is for this survey, and I was here to get a lot of information at Sokin.

799
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:19,810
What's the plan?

800
01:13:20,650 --> 01:13:22,570
Mr. Ellicard did a great job of explaining it.

801
01:13:22,650 --> 01:13:24,130
We want to thank him for his service.

802
01:13:24,810 --> 01:13:25,590
He's leaving right now.

803
01:13:25,650 --> 01:13:26,350
Thank you very much.

804
01:13:26,570 --> 01:13:28,470
But that's a lot on your next endeavors.

805
01:13:29,490 --> 01:13:31,070
So that was very enlightening.

806
01:13:31,870 --> 01:13:36,050
One of the things that was of concern with this survey, and I'm trying to keep it very brief.

807
01:13:36,150 --> 01:13:36,470
Thank you.

808
01:13:36,570 --> 01:13:41,430
When you looked at this, there was one question in particular where it asked the

809
01:13:42,570 --> 01:13:46,950
What would influence you to switch your non-none to switch the non-led ammunition?

810
01:13:47,570 --> 01:13:51,530
Seems like kind of a leading question, and I was kind of curious where they were going with that.

811
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:59,910
And I couldn't help but notice when I was scouring the internet that the Oregon Zoo is advertising for a wildlife and lead outreach coordinator.

812
01:14:01,890 --> 01:14:05,210
So well-paying job, $55 to $73,000 a year.

813
01:14:05,610 --> 01:14:10,010
And if you look at the summary here for the Oregon Zoo's Conservation and Research Division,

814
01:14:10,010 --> 01:14:14,830
looking for a wildlife and lead outreach coordinator to spearhead the development and

815
01:14:14,830 --> 01:14:18,090
an implementation of a wildlife and lead outreach initiative.

816
01:14:18,770 --> 01:14:22,290
The program is envisioned to provide education outreach with the goal of reducing the

817
01:14:22,290 --> 01:14:27,610
exposure of wildlife and lead, which has been identified as a significant cause of morbidity,

818
01:14:27,750 --> 01:14:28,850
mortality and wildlife.

819
01:14:29,390 --> 01:14:32,850
And then it talks about the coordinator will travel throughout the state to build relationships

820
01:14:32,850 --> 01:14:33,970
with hunters.

821
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:38,470
I just thought it was interesting how these two documents came out at a very similar time.

822
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:40,930
I didn't know what the purpose of the survey was.

823
01:14:41,070 --> 01:14:45,310
I just wanted to make sure this was brought to everyone's attention that this is going

824
01:14:45,310 --> 01:14:45,610
on.

825
01:14:45,690 --> 01:14:49,450
And there could be some advocacy with your tax dollars as far as furthering a agenda.

826
01:14:50,730 --> 01:14:56,970
The California model was mentioned in 2007 we had an outright ban in the Condor region,

827
01:14:57,770 --> 01:14:59,950
despite 99.8% compliance or rough.

828
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:11,240
The lead levels in the condor remain stagnant in some cases we saw in increase. And so it wasn't effective, but California chose to go to a statewide ban that's being implemented over the next few years.

829
01:15:12,260 --> 01:15:16,460
I would encourage you to look at that hard and let's make sure we're basing everything on the back. Thank you very much.

830
01:15:16,820 --> 01:15:18,200
Thank you very much.

831
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:24,160
For the record, my name is Kevin Starrin with the Oregon Fire and Federation. Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today.

832
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:33,220
I prefer to testify when I have a bill to deal with and quite frankly quite certain we will be facing a bill or perhaps an administrative rule.

833
01:15:33,380 --> 01:15:42,240
But based on some previous testimony, I think that clearly in some people's ultimate goal is a complete ban on the availability of land ammunition period.

834
01:15:43,340 --> 01:15:50,780
I looked at the survey and received one obviously, but I did look at it. It didn't seem it was fair on bias to me at all as Mr. Reed pointed out.

835
01:15:50,780 --> 01:15:56,560
definitely seem to be some leading questions with an effort to get a specific response.

836
01:15:57,620 --> 01:16:02,180
The fact is, as Mr. Reed said, there is a lot of competing science on this, and as he pointed

837
01:16:02,180 --> 01:16:07,340
out in California, the band not only failed to work, but resulted in elevated levels of lead

838
01:16:07,340 --> 01:16:12,980
in some conduits. A previous speaker testified that in the state where there was a voluntary program

839
01:16:12,980 --> 01:16:19,860
with massive compliance that it didn't work. So it's hard to conclude that when lead is being removed

840
01:16:19,860 --> 01:16:24,760
And the problem is not being solved that lead is actually the problem.

841
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:32,740
The other thing I want to point out is that there are not really very many good alternatives to lead for bullets.

842
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:38,840
The fact is that bullets are made a lead for a reason because of the density, because of the ability to do.

843
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:45,080
This is the composition of the lead is ideal and it's going to be very, very difficult and very, very expensive to replace that.

844
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:50,200
There's one of the few alternatives is something like depleted uranium, which I don't think anybody really wants to use.

845
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:56,580
But to replace lead in bullets is for the most part, really not practical at all.

846
01:16:57,100 --> 01:17:01,580
And so given the extreme difficulty of creating alternative and the cost,

847
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,360
and at this point, no real evidence that it's had any positive effect,

848
01:17:05,900 --> 01:17:11,340
I think we should pay a lot of attention to this as the inevitable bill or administrative bill comes rolling down the pike.

849
01:17:12,980 --> 01:17:13,820
Thank you very much.

850
01:17:17,140 --> 01:17:21,900
chairweight, chairweight, vice chair, Escovall, members committee, my name is Stan Steele,

851
01:17:22,060 --> 01:17:27,360
representing the Oregon Outdoor Council, and just Hunters, and Shooters. This is going to be a

852
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:31,700
contentious issue. It's not going to be solved today. I would say that probably not going to be

853
01:17:31,700 --> 01:17:37,800
solved in next year or two. Took a long path in California, and actually tomorrow, California will be

854
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:43,300
having hearing on how to implement their A.B. 7.11, there's a ban.

855
01:17:43,900 --> 01:17:45,840
It's going to be phased in over a period of years.

856
01:17:45,980 --> 01:17:48,960
I actually think it has to be phased in totally by 2019.

857
01:17:50,220 --> 01:17:54,700
It's still controversial whether that legislation actually is going to work in California

858
01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:56,140
and actually help the condor.

859
01:17:56,820 --> 01:18:02,800
I think both speakers and what we've heard before really outlines the depth and breadth of the issue.

860
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:09,340
Hunting is huge door again, shooting is huge door again. Hunting and shooting nationally

861
01:18:09,340 --> 01:18:17,220
provides the bulk of the pit and the Robinson funding. Our agencies and our wildlife depend

862
01:18:17,220 --> 01:18:23,200
on adequate funding because certainly other sources have not stepped to the forefront.

863
01:18:24,020 --> 01:18:30,400
So as we move through this debate, let's keep caution, not slowly, understand that there

864
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:36,040
There's a lot of science on both sides of this and just because your scientist doesn't mean

865
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:38,760
that you do not have a scientific bias on issues.

866
01:18:39,180 --> 01:18:42,180
I think most of us out here in this community understand that.

867
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:48,880
A gender-driven science would be the worst policy science to use to worst policy science to

868
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:49,380
use.

869
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:55,300
Let's keep it fair, respectable, to all user groups, but I understand ultimately all of this

870
01:18:55,300 --> 01:18:56,940
not the same thing, what's best for Oregon?

871
01:18:57,480 --> 01:18:58,180
Best for our wildlife.

872
01:18:58,940 --> 01:19:00,880
And I think decisions then will probably be made.

873
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,060
Thank you.

874
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:03,400
Thank you very much.

875
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:10,180
Committee members, once again, I've recognized

876
01:19:10,180 --> 01:19:13,360
that there may be some very pressing questions here,

877
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,040
we're a little bit over time.

878
01:19:15,220 --> 01:19:18,880
But if someone has the question that needs to be answered,

879
01:19:19,420 --> 01:19:22,160
and we have our experts, I want to allow that.

880
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:24,020
I'm not seeing any gentlemen.

881
01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:27,620
And I do have, I have one of those questions,

882
01:19:32,110 --> 01:19:37,310
are any of you, possibly all of you familiar

883
01:19:37,310 --> 01:19:50,610
with the terminal ballistics of a lead bullet, a jacket, excuse me, a jacket, a lead bullet,

884
01:19:51,010 --> 01:19:52,630
any of you familiar with that?

885
01:19:52,790 --> 01:19:55,250
Because I have a question for anyone who is.

886
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:59,990
I would probably defer. I'm I'm I'm I'm going to be relatively close.

887
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:13,520
Let me pose the question and see if any of you feel confident to be able to answer it. It has

888
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:20,980
the appearance at least to me that there is an assumption that Jacketed led bullets fragment upon

889
01:20:20,980 --> 01:20:31,740
impact with with with an animal. Now I am a hunter myself. I personally do not choose to hunt with

890
01:20:33,180 --> 01:20:38,820
fragmentary bullets. They are not terribly effective, at least that's been my experience.

891
01:20:40,340 --> 01:20:48,840
And I am and none of the hunters that I'm aware of, choose that type of ammunition either

892
01:20:48,840 --> 01:21:01,240
that honor is typically look for a bullet that upon impact, mushrooms and holes together for penetration purposes.

893
01:21:04,140 --> 01:21:08,500
Is that, is the assumption that lead bullets fragment?

894
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:18,920
Is that, is there an assumption here that the bullet is just led and we are not considering the jacketing effect of a bullet?

895
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:21,800
What would you comment on this point share away?

896
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:32,020
Nice chair as well in members of committee. I think I can dress that 25 years. I checked literally thousands of Oregon deer in elk. I was a foreign fish and wildlife officer. I examined

897
01:21:33,220 --> 01:21:45,920
Many knee crops. He's field E crops. He's also a game guys talked about trying to find the bullet trying to find fragments. But oftentimes they were very, very important evidence in prosecution. Especially if we had a crime, but you can whatever it may be.

898
01:21:46,740 --> 01:21:52,260
I think Michigan or Minnesota just completed a research study where they used 250 carcasses.

899
01:21:52,700 --> 01:21:56,420
Sheeper pick, I can't remember which exactly, where they shot bullets into these carcasses.

900
01:21:57,300 --> 01:22:01,120
We did hear that bullets just fragment and if they could be because of that fragmentation,

901
01:22:02,020 --> 01:22:04,840
it could be very susceptible to all types of scavengers or anything.

902
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:06,780
So whatever else, I want to eat on them.

903
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,100
That's not really true. In some cases, it's very true.

904
01:22:10,460 --> 01:22:13,680
But to generalize and share what you're absolutely correct.

905
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:18,220
The last thing we want to do when a piece of honey ammunition is David Fragment, not leave

906
01:22:18,220 --> 01:22:23,160
a moment to handle the exercise, and last even out of damage, that's the kill power,

907
01:22:23,220 --> 01:22:24,640
that's the down range impact.

908
01:22:25,460 --> 01:22:31,980
I've actually used Barnes-Alt Copper, they're a good bullet, but for earlier testimony indicated

909
01:22:31,980 --> 01:22:41,480
this alternative ammunition is widespread and available, untrue, twice the cost, availability

910
01:22:41,480 --> 01:22:45,520
is extremely limited, male order and many cases

911
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:46,260
in the possible.

912
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:49,900
So I think what we have to make sure is

913
01:22:49,900 --> 01:22:54,120
that the information is clear, precise, and accurate.

914
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,500
And the listics are going to be a big portion of that discussion.

915
01:22:58,820 --> 01:23:02,520
If I'm a Mr. Chairman, I have a good fortune to have

916
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,540
some associates and friends who are very well versed in this.

917
01:23:05,540 --> 01:23:07,940
And I did go to them and ask some questions like that.

918
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:10,040
And one of the things they pointed out is,

919
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:11,760
I have the notes they gave me.

920
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:17,240
The objective is to design a bullet that is dense enough to penetrate, strong enough to

921
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:22,460
hold together to break bones, but malleable enough to expand to create a large wound

922
01:23:22,460 --> 01:23:27,880
channel while dumping all of the bullets energy inside the ammo, which would not be what

923
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:29,960
how you would describe a fragmentary bullet.

924
01:23:33,070 --> 01:23:33,390
Hi, sir.

925
01:23:33,590 --> 01:23:34,150
I was supposed to do that.

926
01:23:34,370 --> 01:23:34,570
Yeah.

927
01:23:34,870 --> 01:23:37,230
Well, actually, I can chime in a little bit here.

928
01:23:37,230 --> 01:23:43,950
I took an L1 time and hit him three times in his tenderloin and all three bullets stayed inside.

929
01:23:44,650 --> 01:23:50,430
And I weighed those bullets and there wasn't a green difference in all three ways.

930
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:53,270
From what I started with and when I finished with.

931
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:58,910
So no offense but I just don't subscribe to what some people are saying in this hearing.

932
01:24:01,110 --> 01:24:07,490
I have a final question, I don't know if any of the other committee members, but my last

933
01:24:07,490 --> 01:24:15,630
question, hopefully we can move on. Again, my personal experience. I'm not suggestive

934
01:24:15,630 --> 01:24:24,450
that this is necessarily true across the board, but it's counterintuitive to think that

935
01:24:24,450 --> 01:24:33,530
Jacketed bullets are stopped by, excuse the graphic nature, but intestines and guts if you will,

936
01:24:34,450 --> 01:24:41,630
that it's usually hard bone matter and other parts of the animal. Oftentimes the opposite

937
01:24:41,630 --> 01:24:52,650
side capers skin is what actually ends up stopping that projectile. Do we have reason to believe that

938
01:24:52,650 --> 01:24:59,950
It's common for guts to stop project that.

939
01:25:01,490 --> 01:25:15,370
I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, as you're probably aware, there are rounds of ammunition that are specifically designed to fragment their use in defense, and they're completely different from what would be used to hunt.

940
01:25:15,510 --> 01:25:21,930
And if bullets fragmented by their nature, there'd be no reason to specially design bullet that did that.

941
01:25:23,290 --> 01:25:26,990
Yes, representative Craig and we're taught to properly

942
01:25:27,630 --> 01:25:32,930
trying to take an animal, which means you don't shoot it, and that's maybe a California they do.

943
01:25:38,100 --> 01:25:43,280
I just have a comment, it's not quite related to this, but it isn't a way.

944
01:25:43,580 --> 01:25:49,800
We have thousands of raptors dying yearly by flying into wind power generating facilities across the west.

945
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:55,160
And yet our government gives these industries a pass even on endangered species.

946
01:25:55,720 --> 01:26:02,200
So I have a really hard time saying, you know, on one hand, we forgive it and on the other hand, we don't.

947
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:02,920
So.

948
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:04,580
All right.

949
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:07,140
Gentlemen, thank you very, very much.

950
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:08,440
I appreciate your appearance.

951
01:26:08,580 --> 01:26:09,240
Thank you.

952
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:15,200
And with that, we're going to move on to ODF and W fee proposals.

953
01:26:15,200 --> 01:26:21,060
Like to call forward once again, please Roy Elliker and Debbie Colbert.

954
01:26:21,100 --> 01:26:24,160
Thank God I won't go to the parkour here.

955
01:26:25,660 --> 01:26:27,500
I'm here in just a minute.

956
01:26:31,260 --> 01:26:33,520
No one mentioned that was a variation.

957
01:26:34,440 --> 01:26:36,240
Yeah, I know.

958
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:39,340
Was this the gallery?

959
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:43,400
No, no, no, no.

960
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:44,660
I don't think so.

961
01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:48,140
I don't know.

962
01:26:48,140 --> 01:26:49,980
I don't know.

963
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:57,840
Is that director, you know how to clear a room?

964
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:11,380
Mr. Chair for the record, shall I weigh second our shaggle?

965
01:27:11,460 --> 01:27:12,960
Yeah, maybe just a second.

966
01:27:26,310 --> 01:27:37,010
And just to help you and to help me, if we can do your two of you in 15 minutes would be great.

967
01:27:42,060 --> 01:27:43,360
Chair, I think we can do that.

968
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:43,980
Thank you.

969
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:49,140
Chair, Mr. Chair, once again for the record, Roy Alaker, Director of the Oregon Department of Fish Wildlife,

970
01:27:49,140 --> 01:27:54,160
on my right to miss Debbie Colbert, our Deputy for Administration also with the Oregon Department

971
01:27:54,160 --> 01:28:00,460
Fish and Wildlife. We do have a short PowerPoint here to go through what's been requested

972
01:28:00,460 --> 01:28:07,320
by this committee as our 2015 Hunting and Fishing License Feb Proposals, and we can get started on

973
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:11,640
that right away. And the report's going to start, and I'm going to finish. Thank you.

974
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:18,300
Just to the committee was interested in talking about our 2015 paper proposals, but just to give a

975
01:28:18,300 --> 01:28:21,540
a little bit of context to the work we've been doing on those V proposals.

976
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:27,040
This is our agency request budget for 2015-17.

977
01:28:27,220 --> 01:28:31,520
As you can see, it's quite the mix of federal funds,

978
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:34,600
other funds, general fund, and lottery as we've proposed.

979
01:28:35,540 --> 01:28:41,300
But as a kind of context for the discussion of our recreational fees,

980
01:28:41,300 --> 01:28:53,900
You can also see that, even though it's a mix of funding, those funds that flow from hunters and anglers is actually pretty large.

981
01:28:54,360 --> 01:29:07,360
Of the federal funds we receive almost a third of those federal funds are because of the past through from the federal government of exercise taxes on sporting gear and ammunition and other items.

982
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:13,660
And then in our other funds, it's about $100,000,000,000 out of the $150 million

983
01:29:13,660 --> 01:29:19,780
of other funds we receive is directly the sale of recreational licenses and tags.

984
01:29:20,420 --> 01:29:25,660
So it's a pretty important piece as we build our budget for your consideration is our

985
01:29:25,660 --> 01:29:26,420
fee proposals.

986
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:35,300
And again, just to set some context for what we will be discussing in 2015, we our last fee

987
01:29:35,300 --> 01:29:42,360
proposal was approved by the 2009 legislature, and it adjusted our recreational or occupational

988
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:49,040
and our commercial licenses and tags, and it was effective in January 2009, 2010.

989
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:54,460
At that time, we made a commitment to our stakeholders and to the legislature that we would

990
01:29:54,460 --> 01:29:59,860
those revenues last six years and that has been our typical cycle where we

991
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:16,160
Do you seek your increments on our fee adjustments? So 2013-15, the budget that we're in right now is essentially the end of that six year period and we are tracking to meet our commitment to make it the six years as we had promised to our stakeholders and our customers.

992
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:29,160
As we look forward into the next six year horizon, we are looking at having less carryover or less reserves or savings moving into the next six year period for a number of reasons.

993
01:30:30,380 --> 01:30:37,320
Over the six years that we've been operating under our 2010 fee schedule, we've really seen

994
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:42,960
lower than originally projected revenues, especially in the area of non-residents.

995
01:30:43,580 --> 01:30:52,480
It's about 6% lower in terms of participation in revenue for non-residents than what we had predicted in 2009

996
01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:55,280
when we brought the proposal to the legislature.

997
01:30:55,280 --> 01:31:00,700
We also, over the course of the six years, there have been fun shifts where, for example,

998
01:31:00,860 --> 01:31:07,000
general fund would be taken out of the budget and instead we would be using licensed

999
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:07,560
dollars.

1000
01:31:07,860 --> 01:31:12,860
So, again, that shortened some of our reserves moving into this next six-year period.

1001
01:31:13,900 --> 01:31:18,960
This last biennium in 1315, we've had higher than what we had originally projected in terms

1002
01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:20,260
of some personnel costs.

1003
01:31:20,260 --> 01:31:30,740
And then it would be no surprise to you that we've also had a lot less interest earning on carryover funds over the course of these six years because of the economy.

1004
01:31:32,100 --> 01:31:46,080
We have been working on a combination of strategies to plan our entire budget requests, and it really relies on a number of strategies, including proposed adjustments to our recreational commercial licenses and tags.

1005
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:48,860
And that's what we were going to talk to you about today.

1006
01:31:49,380 --> 01:31:53,460
We've been working essentially for about eight months with our stakeholders.

1007
01:31:53,780 --> 01:31:59,080
We have a pretty extensive public process for building our budget as a state agency.

1008
01:31:59,980 --> 01:32:05,060
Even more so, this go around, given the fact that we were really looking at some significant

1009
01:32:05,060 --> 01:32:08,820
changes in terms of how we were funded and proposing changes to fees.

1010
01:32:09,420 --> 01:32:11,980
We have a large budget advisory committee.

1011
01:32:11,980 --> 01:32:16,640
you'll be hearing from three members of that budget advisory committee on your panel today.

1012
01:32:17,180 --> 01:32:21,080
No numerous meetings with them to design our fee proposal, gather their input.

1013
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:27,540
We also host a series of town hall meetings across the state together broader public input

1014
01:32:27,540 --> 01:32:28,460
on what we're proposing.

1015
01:32:29,140 --> 01:32:33,820
We've received numerous comments to our commission proposal.

1016
01:32:34,460 --> 01:32:37,920
And then we also did, this was new to us, this go round.

1017
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:58,460
We sent out quite a few surveys to hunters and anglers, non-resident, and resident, to try to get even more input from our customers in terms of how we would design any fee adjustments, new concepts that they wanted us to look at, and ways that we could just be more customer friendly in terms of how we package hunting and angling licenses.

1018
01:32:58,460 --> 01:32:59,220
So,

1019
01:33:02,900 --> 01:33:08,960
we're going to share with you, members of the committee, our fee adjustment restructuring

1020
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:10,380
proposal here in just a second.

1021
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:16,960
We've tried very hard to incorporate all the public input that Deputy Director Cooper has

1022
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:17,820
talked about.

1023
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:23,540
We tried to look at strategic adjustments across the board rather than just, rather than just

1024
01:33:23,540 --> 01:33:24,700
across the board increases.

1025
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:32,120
We look based on our survey results in particular, we're looking at a schedule of a

1026
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:39,520
incremental by a smaller amount rather than just just to flat out the increase and then maintain

1027
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:44,900
for six years. We're going to look to promote participation even more by using families and I'm

1028
01:33:44,900 --> 01:33:50,500
going to show you how well you do that and some new licensed concepts. So new licensed concepts,

1029
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:54,820
I want to cover with this committee because I think there'll be a lot of discussion about some of them.

1030
01:33:56,280 --> 01:34:01,700
So some of you may know that last session, the legislature passed a bill that allowed us

1031
01:34:01,700 --> 01:34:10,750
To move to selling hunting and fishing licenses. I'm not just an annual basis, but also three year basis or five year basis. So we're going to have

1032
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:19,870
We're going to roll that out this year for 2016. I'm sorry for 2016 after this let's say session and

1033
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:25,660
It's going to sell we're going to have license available in one year three year and five year increments

1034
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:31,640
By having people buy three and five year licenses that really helps what they call the churn in other words

1035
01:34:31,700 --> 01:34:38,600
probably about as many as 40% of all licensed buyers don't apply to licenses every single year.

1036
01:34:38,820 --> 01:34:43,220
They tend to buy one they want to go hunting fishing but that may not be every 12 months.

1037
01:34:43,740 --> 01:34:46,920
So when you have someone step up and buy three new licenses or five of your license,

1038
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:51,080
you're not working very hard to get them to make sure they buy license next year.

1039
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:55,060
They're already signed up. It's a sweet deal in some ways for us. And in some states,

1040
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:59,420
they've already moved to this multi-year concept. They've already seen a change

1041
01:34:59,420 --> 01:35:00,000
and

1042
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:29,980
And see the impact that's making to the positive for revenues. The Pioneer License, you're going to have a lot to discuss about this, because right now, where is the support in that, or I believe, over 65, and I've lived here 50 years, get a free, hunting and fishing license. And that's been an effect for May decades. However, because of the way the federal government distributes the exercise tax revenue, Debbie talked about, from the sale of hunting.

1043
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:36,400
fishing ammunition, marine gasoline, boats, other hunting fishing accessories. When we give

1044
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:44,640
that free license, it kind of just qualifies us with that license to get the federal revenue.

1045
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:50,840
We could normally get by charging something for it. So by charging very minimal fees, maybe

1046
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:59,980
$6, we're going to turn around and gain equivalent of another $14 a federal money through the

1047
01:35:59,980 --> 01:36:05,020
But when we ran it through our survey with the exception of the folks already holding

1048
01:36:05,020 --> 01:36:09,640
Pioneer licenses most folks were looking forward to Pioneer licenses said they'd be

1049
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:14,260
wanting to pay a small fee particularly if it kept you overall price-flying fishing licenses low.

1050
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,560
But I'm sure we'll have a lot of discussion about that in this next session.

1051
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:20,800
We're going to be looking for some unique fishing opportunity raffles.

1052
01:36:21,260 --> 01:36:23,480
We're going to look for a premier hunt series for Deer and Alka.

1053
01:36:23,660 --> 01:36:26,220
I'll move right to these Mr. Chair. I know in the instant time.

1054
01:36:26,220 --> 01:36:32,180
And another thing is that we're thinking of adding an additional fee for folks fishing in the ocean.

1055
01:36:32,500 --> 01:36:39,540
And that comes about because some of our ocean fisheries, whether it's tuna, whether it's halibut, whether it's a bottom fish,

1056
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:45,680
more and more increasingly we have more work to do to ensure we can have those fisheries.

1057
01:36:45,940 --> 01:36:53,460
No fisheries in particular wants more information and data about harvest and about catch and how we match those fisheries.

1058
01:36:53,460 --> 01:36:58,680
that comes across us to do all that work and collect that data, and so right now those

1059
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:02,680
ocean fisheries are being supported by general license fees from everybody that goes fishing.

1060
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:07,540
What we were thinking is for folks that do that kind of ocean fishing, maybe have them pay

1061
01:37:07,540 --> 01:37:13,000
a little more of a fee upfront to help support those specific expenses that come with keeping

1062
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:14,700
those fisheries open and robust.

1063
01:37:17,060 --> 01:37:21,280
I'm very proud of this concept because we're going to make it even simpler for families

1064
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:25,880
young kids to go hunting and fishing and shell fishing in Oregon because here's the deal.

1065
01:37:26,480 --> 01:37:32,600
10 bucks. If you have any children or grandchildren between 10 and 17, for 10 bucks you're

1066
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:36,060
going to buy one license for them. They're going to be able to hunt. They're going to be able to

1067
01:37:36,060 --> 01:37:42,440
fish. They're going to go crabbing. Go razor-clamming. That's it. One time feed 10 bucks each year.

1068
01:37:43,220 --> 01:37:47,280
It's going to apply to resident kids and non-resident kids. Columbia endorsement,

1069
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:50,320
and Ocean Dorson would be included, no additional fee there,

1070
01:37:51,060 --> 01:37:55,200
because of some of the federal requirements on waterfowl and upland birds.

1071
01:37:55,700 --> 01:37:57,960
Something called a hip, which tells you know very well what is,

1072
01:37:58,200 --> 01:37:59,880
which is that harvest information program.

1073
01:38:00,620 --> 01:38:04,940
We were trying hard to have no cost for waterfowl and upland birds,

1074
01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:06,060
but it got so confusing.

1075
01:38:06,340 --> 01:38:07,980
We had to go with the reduced cost on that.

1076
01:38:08,140 --> 01:38:11,340
But the bottom line is to be no increase on the juvenile storage pack,

1077
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:14,580
which provides all kinds of tags on attorneys for total of $55.

1078
01:38:14,580 --> 01:38:18,560
And it's very popular among young families, not in fish a lot.

1079
01:38:19,100 --> 01:38:23,980
And then on top of that, we're just going to make it very simple for the $10 fee for whatever.

1080
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:27,660
If your kids want to go on and fish in 10 bucks, you're there.

1081
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:28,020
Right there.

1082
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:33,820
Here's an example of some of the adjustments we're proposing, again, these will be coming

1083
01:38:33,820 --> 01:38:37,920
to the committee for some discussion I am sure as well as ways and means, which will lead to the

1084
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:38,320
discussion.

1085
01:38:39,060 --> 01:38:44,520
You can see overall, like in a hunting license, it's a $5 increase over a bout or, yeah,

1086
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:50,780
a little less than that. About about a $5 increase through 2020, not very much of an increase,

1087
01:38:50,940 --> 01:38:54,700
frankly, about the price of applying a beer, and if you're Portland, maybe a little less than

1088
01:38:54,700 --> 01:39:00,580
applying a beer. Control-hunt apps, for those who use that big game hunters, know that those are

1089
01:39:00,580 --> 01:39:06,540
the applications that people file to apply to go big game hunting in the state. One of the lessons

1090
01:39:06,540 --> 01:39:13,240
we learned back in O'Nine is that when we substantially raised the cost of these applications,

1091
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:21,760
Is that hunters pretty much let us know that was the worst thing to have done that was their number one complaint about the fee package

1092
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:27,960
You know nine is that we raised the application fee for them to apply for different pick-aimons

1093
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:32,600
So we learned something from that and in this proposal, you'll see there's no change

1094
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:38,140
No change in control on applications and we went out to the public forums and talked to hunters

1095
01:39:38,140 --> 01:39:43,140
They were very supportive of that and then you can kind of pick and choose some of these things

1096
01:39:44,820 --> 01:39:49,800
And the wildlife side, hunting side, increases not as much on the fishing side, for instance

1097
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:54,640
on the Angling Tag and the fishing license a little bit more of an increase because, frankly,

1098
01:39:56,180 --> 01:39:59,800
for the inorgan, two thirds of our costs and two thirds of our program.

1099
01:40:01,100 --> 01:40:20,180
With all the work we do on salmon, all the work we do on green fisheries, all the work we do on the side of a trout and other species, we really have a department heavy to fisheries, and of course that comes to the real cost with all the monitoring and the dangerous species issues in the Columbia River, coho, pull trout, for instance, those kinds of things.

1100
01:40:22,610 --> 01:40:26,870
So one of the things that we're doing is kind of a marketing play this year is we're going

1101
01:40:26,870 --> 01:40:32,590
after what we call the Trial 365, because in Oregon you can fish somewhere for Trial 365 days

1102
01:40:32,590 --> 01:40:39,210
a year, last dates don't have quite as large opportunities for this, and so we're using this

1103
01:40:39,210 --> 01:40:44,830
little bit to start to tell people perhaps to change in license fee, but at $38 per year

1104
01:40:44,830 --> 01:40:50,730
you just want to go Trial Fishing, that's $2.38 on the average trip, and we based that

1105
01:40:50,730 --> 01:40:56,850
is from all the survey work we did, the average working angler goes fishing about 16 times a year.

1106
01:40:57,510 --> 01:41:02,770
And so when you break down a $38 license fee, that's $2.38 every time they go out fishing.

1107
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:06,690
Which if anyone here's been fishing lately, $2.38.

1108
01:41:07,530 --> 01:41:11,650
And that's probably one of your least amount of your costs when you go fishing for a day.

1109
01:41:11,890 --> 01:41:14,450
And if you go to Booye 10, that's a cup of coffee.

1110
01:41:15,570 --> 01:41:17,450
So that's one of the way we're looking at this.

1111
01:41:17,770 --> 01:41:18,190
Go ahead Debbie.

1112
01:41:18,190 --> 01:41:19,830
I want to move to this.

1113
01:41:19,830 --> 01:41:20,650
That wraps it up.

1114
01:41:20,730 --> 01:41:25,290
Mr. Chair, Vice Chair, we know we've got a lot of issues here today, and we just want

1115
01:41:25,290 --> 01:41:26,050
to give that overview.

1116
01:41:26,630 --> 01:41:28,350
I don't have lots of discussion in this community.

1117
01:41:29,890 --> 01:41:31,130
Vice Chair, also below.

1118
01:41:32,050 --> 01:41:33,730
By noon, some more time.

1119
01:41:33,770 --> 01:41:38,270
When I turn 65, that you would figure a way to get money from me from my

1120
01:41:38,270 --> 01:41:39,470
pioneer license, Roy.

1121
01:41:40,670 --> 01:41:43,090
The other thing is, I suggest that the commission,

1122
01:41:43,710 --> 01:41:46,970
or the department itself, look into the State of Pennsylvania.

1123
01:41:46,970 --> 01:41:52,930
They have quite a graph that, when they have been raised for fees, last people had

1124
01:41:52,930 --> 01:41:53,650
100 fish.

1125
01:41:53,830 --> 01:41:56,790
When they would lower fees, more people had 100 fish.

1126
01:41:57,410 --> 01:42:01,430
We're eventually going to head for a train wreck in this state if we're not careful because

1127
01:42:01,430 --> 01:42:04,770
you're going to get it at the point where the only people are going to be able to go hunting

1128
01:42:04,770 --> 01:42:09,590
of a family of four, it's going to cost them an arm and a leg and you can't do that to

1129
01:42:09,590 --> 01:42:10,510
the work of people.

1130
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:18,940
I represent a creek right you know how I pioneer licenses are issued here. Yes, sir

1131
01:42:18,940 --> 01:42:26,600
I think it's about 53,000 53,000 a year and that is going up as the as the population

1132
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:33,680
Asian fishermen so you can see where we're going on this. Yeah, represent a creek. I mean this 53,000 this year now in few years

1133
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:45,480
It probably easily be 60,000 and about half of those licenses. I'm not getting any federal exercise tax money for but it's it's

1134
01:42:45,480 --> 01:42:52,600
I know, for instance, there's a lot of folks that are in the early 60s all looking forward to that Pioneer license, but

1135
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:59,220
a lot of information we're going to provide on that, but it's okay. We like to know what that's going to bring us. Yes, sir.

1136
01:42:59,340 --> 01:43:00,680
We'll be able to do all that.

1137
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:04,220
Thank you. Mr. Director, I don't know whether it's just

1138
01:43:05,020 --> 01:43:08,840
the members of this committee or whether it's age or what it is, but

1139
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:12,160
there's nothing to fear about given them a free go. I mean,

1140
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:16,920
You know, there's plenty left for the rest of the summer.

1141
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:18,840
Representative Witzett.

1142
01:43:18,980 --> 01:43:19,140
Yes.

1143
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:24,140
I'm hearing from a lot of my constituents that they are giving up hunting and fishing

1144
01:43:24,140 --> 01:43:25,660
because of the increase in licenses.

1145
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:33,180
And I was wondering if you're seeing a decrease over the last few years in licensing for hunting and fishing.

1146
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:35,900
I mean, you know your numbers from one year to the next.

1147
01:43:36,180 --> 01:43:37,400
Is it down or up?

1148
01:43:37,980 --> 01:43:39,700
Mr. Chair, Representative Witzett.

1149
01:43:39,700 --> 01:43:46,160
In the last five years, I'm happy to say it's not been going up, but it's not been going down.

1150
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:51,020
There's been relatively flat. We have all those numbers we can provide to you about numbers of

1151
01:43:51,020 --> 01:43:58,400
hunting and fishing, but it's not been a significant decrease at all. It's been relatively flat.

1152
01:43:58,660 --> 01:44:04,980
We have about 650,000 fishermen, about 280,000 hunters, generally, but we'll provide you that

1153
01:44:04,980 --> 01:44:08,000
information here this week. And you can take a look at yourself.

1154
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:20,820
And I just want to say that if I am doing my math, right, your fishing licenses, it's a 25% increase through 2020 and a 40% on your angling tag.

1155
01:44:21,420 --> 01:44:27,100
Just to break it through, what percentage is our versus just looking at some money there?

1156
01:44:27,260 --> 01:44:27,440
Sure.

1157
01:44:28,180 --> 01:44:29,520
Mr. Chair, what's it?

1158
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:30,040
Thank you.

1159
01:44:30,220 --> 01:44:32,540
I'm sure there'll be lots of discussion on that.

1160
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:37,980
because a lot of discussion individually and ways and means and probably missed to make you.

1161
01:44:39,580 --> 01:44:41,140
Thank you both very very much.

1162
01:44:41,220 --> 01:44:42,460
Thank you again Mr. Chair.

1163
01:44:42,740 --> 01:44:44,240
Thank you.

1164
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:48,760
I'd like to call up please stand steel L. Elkins and Joe Rollator.

1165
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:05,020
Please. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the record, I'm Al Alokins, representing the Oregon Contrast Association.

1166
01:45:06,940 --> 01:45:17,680
Come here today to talk about the T and C, O D F, W. We were an R, a member of E-back, the external budget

1167
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:25,020
advisory committee that you saw on the board. When they first met this year, we had the understanding

1168
01:45:25,020 --> 01:45:31,200
We came to the realization that there was going to be a request for the fees increases.

1169
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:40,180
During that time, they started the town hall meetings and a number of our members attended those.

1170
01:45:40,840 --> 01:45:49,200
We started getting a great deal of feedback against most of those things that you saw up there in relation to hunting.

1171
01:45:50,140 --> 01:45:53,360
I'm sure you've all had to do with the press on the pioneer license.

1172
01:45:53,360 --> 01:46:02,340
we did as well. So during that time, the board, through phone calls and emails from the

1173
01:46:02,340 --> 01:46:10,640
membership, decided that they could not support FE increase and we testified in front of them.

1174
01:46:11,100 --> 01:46:14,160
The Oregon Hunter Association could not support FE increase.

1175
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:20,220
What we heard a lot was that people were dissolution about hunting.

1176
01:46:20,220 --> 01:46:28,600
They also wrapped up fishing in that scenario as well, and many commented on that they were

1177
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:34,600
tired of paying for hunting trips and not having the opportunity to even see wildlife

1178
01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:36,220
let alone hunt it.

1179
01:46:36,820 --> 01:46:41,720
So that was the theme that we saw in the emails and the phone calls.

1180
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:49,900
And to sum it all up, we got a phrase that stuck with us as hunters do not want more

1181
01:46:49,900 --> 01:46:52,780
days in the field, but more wildlife in the field.

1182
01:46:53,080 --> 01:46:58,340
And that in essence said, it gives you the mindset of what these people were saying.

1183
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:06,020
So what's next, during the e-back process, a lot of information was given to us.

1184
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:10,580
And if I'm going to say anything today that you're going to remember, I hope it's this,

1185
01:47:10,580 --> 01:47:19,040
that we have to have a policy discussion at some time here in this building about the field

1186
01:47:19,040 --> 01:47:27,540
biologists who we as an association support 100 percent are number one priority every legislation

1187
01:47:27,540 --> 01:47:32,800
I've legislated session I've been with this group is to keep the field biologists in the field

1188
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:37,880
and to keep the game enforcement officers in the field but something that I learned that was just

1189
01:47:37,880 --> 01:47:46,640
absolutely astounding to me, was that 50% to 60% of the daily work of biologists now

1190
01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:53,860
includes analysis of agency to agency work, getting including analysis plans at the county

1191
01:47:53,860 --> 01:48:01,320
state and federal levels that impact wildlife and habitat. So this is not your mom and dad's

1192
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:09,780
on grandpa's ODFW that we're all used to. These are not the biologists. These are the biologists

1193
01:48:09,780 --> 01:48:17,980
that now have a tremendous amount of work to do in addition to the 50 to 60 percent of time

1194
01:48:17,980 --> 01:48:27,260
that they have to spend on planning analysis of plants. So our question is, what's paying for this?

1195
01:48:27,260 --> 01:48:37,760
Well, we know the answer now, but we'd like to see perhaps a discussion on who should be paying for it and how should they be paying for it?

1196
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:46,840
And when you look at 50%, the 60% of an individual's time, that takes a lot of time away from wildlife and habitat management,

1197
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:55,220
that we think we are paying for, and that we think we should be getting out of our dollars, and I would conclude with that.

1198
01:48:55,220 --> 01:48:59,920
So we would like to have the board would like to have that discussion publicly.

1199
01:49:00,300 --> 01:49:01,880
I've never been discussed publicly.

1200
01:49:02,140 --> 01:49:02,680
I don't think.

1201
01:49:03,380 --> 01:49:05,860
I think, thank you very much.

1202
01:49:06,380 --> 01:49:06,820
Isn't it?

1203
01:49:06,820 --> 01:49:12,240
And if we could, if you can five minutes maximum, four minutes, we might even have time

1204
01:49:12,240 --> 01:49:12,600
for questions.

1205
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:13,420
She knows you well.

1206
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:14,740
She knows you well.

1207
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:16,480
Chair of it.

1208
01:49:17,240 --> 01:49:19,080
My chair has to go on committee members.

1209
01:49:20,220 --> 01:49:21,880
So I'm curious what's my outfit?

1210
01:49:22,140 --> 01:49:25,160
I think there's a consensus across the sport user group, both in the English.

1211
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:34,200
the hunting, the trapping community, that we might not have avoided the train wreck, or if we

1212
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:40,380
have or anything entering the tunnel. And it's a dark tunnel. 34 million potential in the

1213
01:49:40,380 --> 01:49:46,520
red, up to 132 million, potentially in the red in the next six years, if we don't either

1214
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:51,080
shore up the tracks or see what the base problem is. Base problem is participation.

1215
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:57,400
South Hunters, fishers and other users participating, the economic model doesn't work.

1216
01:49:57,640 --> 01:49:59,400
It's the North American Wildlife History.

1217
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:10,220
Conervation. It's based on a user pay user play scenario. Every action that we take, and I have a newspaper article

1218
01:50:10,220 --> 01:50:14,280
that I wanted to bring just to refer to myself here is commission vote today on limiting

1219
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:20,660
hatchery salmon. Each one of those actions is death by a thousand cuts to a rate-paying

1220
01:50:20,660 --> 01:50:28,120
public. So what we have to do is have that discussion. Get back to our core values. Understand

1221
01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:32,440
as this is so apropos for where we're at.

1222
01:50:32,740 --> 01:50:34,940
We used to go deer hunting in eastern Oregon,

1223
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:39,060
and now we go deer camping, and elk camping.

1224
01:50:39,920 --> 01:50:41,040
There is a root problem.

1225
01:50:41,480 --> 01:50:44,140
It can't be solved by anything other than

1226
01:50:44,140 --> 01:50:46,860
looking at those programs that will support

1227
01:50:46,860 --> 01:50:48,480
our core user groups.

1228
01:50:48,900 --> 01:50:50,420
Other states are doing it.

1229
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:53,680
Our recent survey that OVFW participate in

1230
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:55,300
that they say is not a good survey,

1231
01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:58,060
but it was conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

1232
01:50:58,060 --> 01:51:05,980
under a grant with what the ODFW said Oregon has lost 18 and 17% of its hunters and

1233
01:51:05,980 --> 01:51:08,480
anglers within the last five years respectively.

1234
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:13,460
I don't know whether the surveys accurate, but it's certainly out there and published.

1235
01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:14,880
Thank you.

1236
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:16,080
Thank you very much.

1237
01:51:16,580 --> 01:51:18,560
Mr. Chair, my name is Jill Rollator.

1238
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:20,620
I live in Walport.

1239
01:51:21,220 --> 01:51:27,460
I've been involved in this sort of thing, fish and wildlife funding for a long time, 30 years

1240
01:51:27,460 --> 01:51:34,220
So, and I'm not going to talk about all the specifics of the percentages of who pays what

1241
01:51:34,220 --> 01:51:39,620
and where it comes from, but I want to talk about a little bit about the history of how we

1242
01:51:39,620 --> 01:51:49,320
funded wildlife management in North America, and we developed informal policy in about the

1243
01:51:49,960 --> 01:51:56,980
1330s, where we set for seven principles, and I can't remember them all up to top of

1244
01:51:56,980 --> 01:51:57,280
my head.

1245
01:51:57,500 --> 01:52:06,480
But basically, the wildlife belongs to everybody, and that it's hunting and fishing, implied,

1246
01:52:07,220 --> 01:52:11,980
is democratic, which means anybody who wants to hunt and fish can hunt fish.

1247
01:52:11,980 --> 01:52:17,720
It's governed by laws that are set by the governments and the places where we hunt fish.

1248
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:27,420
And sort of unstated was that the consumers, Fishermen and Hunters, would pay for the management of everything.

1249
01:52:29,020 --> 01:52:36,900
The, you know, us guys that, that haunted and fished would buy tags like the Duck Stamp that came out in 1934.

1250
01:52:38,420 --> 01:52:44,820
And also, we pay exercise taxes on the hunting and additional equipment that we buy through the

1251
01:52:45,480 --> 01:52:48,960
Pippman Robertson Act that went into effect in 1937.

1252
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:54,660
And the Dingo Johnson purchased restoration act that went into effect in 1950.

1253
01:52:55,240 --> 01:53:02,780
And anywhere from 10 to 12% of the wholesale value of fishing and hunting equipment is collected by the federal government

1254
01:53:02,780 --> 01:53:08,180
and then re-distributed back to the states for Fisheries Management.

1255
01:53:09,380 --> 01:53:16,100
And just to cut this short, there's a discussion going on about taking the general fund

1256
01:53:16,100 --> 01:53:22,120
and parceling the Gen ODF and WS budget and just converting that conservation.

1257
01:53:23,500 --> 01:53:26,480
And taking the hunting and fishing fees and saying,

1258
01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:31,280
you get to manage their milk with that money.

1259
01:53:31,280 --> 01:53:37,080
And I participated in that conversation for a while, but now I kind of think that maybe it's not a real good

1260
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:42,680
conversation for us to have, because we've just kind of changed the North American

1261
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:51,200
conservation model to, now we've got to figure out a way, so the other people that are

1262
01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:59,300
enjoying wildlife without eating it and pay. And I think that all of us who hunt and fish are

1263
01:53:59,300 --> 01:54:06,620
to pay as much as we can for my house myself you know I get a tremendous amount of

1264
01:54:06,620 --> 01:54:14,160
pleasure out of a 50 or 60 dollar charge for my my fishing licenses and it's a

1265
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:20,520
lot less than going and playing a day's goal but that's just me and I don't have

1266
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:26,660
the same demands economically some other people have so I just want to leave you with

1267
01:54:26,660 --> 01:54:34,380
idea that that is that if we all as hunters and fishermen had not have paid for fisheries

1268
01:54:34,380 --> 01:54:40,600
and wildlife management that restored deer and elk populations in Oregon, we wouldn't

1269
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:46,120
have to have the argument about the wolves because the wolf didn't have anything to eat.

1270
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:56,460
If we had no body gone and paid for really good scientific management, if we had to help those animals

1271
01:54:56,460 --> 01:54:59,860
in public trust and if we have no loud everybody.

1272
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:29,980
I think to have access to those animals. So my lecture is over and as the as the as the session goes on, you all know that it worked with me that I really like to have the sort of extended esoteric discussions about about these things before we make decisions and so I hope that you follow follow that model and we have that discussion and that we come up with an equitable way to

1273
01:55:29,980 --> 01:55:37,960
continue to fund really good vision violence. Thank you. Thank you very much. Vice

1274
01:55:37,960 --> 01:55:41,880
Chair, us, we'll go. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Real briefly here. We mentioned

1275
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:48,140
we we kind of touched on people doing work in our biologists doing work for other

1276
01:55:48,140 --> 01:55:53,680
people, other organizations, other departments, probably state departments, so on and so forth.

1277
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:59,960
And county, state and maybe even federal, I'm not sure. The one thing that I think we do

1278
01:55:59,960 --> 01:56:08,840
lack in the commit on not the commission but the department. Where's the accountability for these

1279
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:16,640
biologists that we have? What exactly do they do? What exactly do they produce? If we have someone

1280
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:22,680
doing 60% of his work or her work for some county, why don't we back charge in the county?

1281
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:29,940
Why are

1282
01:56:29,940 --> 01:56:33,700
because if they didn't, if they didn't grab those biologists,

1283
01:56:34,260 --> 01:56:36,000
by going, they didn't have to hire somebody.

1284
01:56:38,290 --> 01:56:41,370
Mr. Chair, Representative, ask of all, that's our question.

1285
01:56:42,390 --> 01:56:45,570
It's kind of a vicious circle, and we want to see if there was

1286
01:56:45,570 --> 01:56:49,330
some way we can break that and get them reimbursed for what they're doing.

1287
01:56:50,630 --> 01:56:53,550
About what they're doing now, we have a very good working relationship

1288
01:56:54,150 --> 01:56:57,350
with our, the biologists through our 25 chapters,

1289
01:56:57,650 --> 01:56:59,310
and they attend all our monthly meetings.

1290
01:56:59,310 --> 01:57:04,110
and so we know what the work they're doing and we know how hard they work to maintain the

1291
01:57:04,110 --> 01:57:08,630
wildlife and the habitat. But we also know all of the additional things that they're called to

1292
01:57:08,630 --> 01:57:29,290
do. So that's, we just want to get some questions answered this all. Representative Creer and then

1293
01:57:29,290 --> 01:57:29,990
the year.

1294
01:57:30,110 --> 01:57:32,150
There are 64 and a half days in the year.

1295
01:57:32,250 --> 01:57:35,170
I'm going to start pro-right in this thing.

1296
01:57:37,110 --> 01:57:38,130
Representative Reardon.

1297
01:57:38,610 --> 01:57:39,370
I'm just curious.

1298
01:57:40,190 --> 01:57:45,410
I didn't capture how much all the increases were on the fees, but to one I remember it was

1299
01:57:45,410 --> 01:57:48,610
like $5 over five years or something.

1300
01:57:49,630 --> 01:57:54,670
Didn't seem like a whole lot to me, but I can't judge how that might affect somebody

1301
01:57:54,670 --> 01:57:55,450
else's finances.

1302
01:57:55,450 --> 01:58:02,790
But do you have any information through your various organizations that talks about how much the average hunter or fisherman

1303
01:58:03,610 --> 01:58:05,230
facial person spends

1304
01:58:05,230 --> 01:58:07,690
per year on their

1305
01:58:07,690 --> 01:58:09,430
active recreational activities?

1306
01:58:10,930 --> 01:58:16,890
Well, I think and I'm I'm I'm going obviously as how how big a deal is this?

1307
01:58:16,890 --> 01:58:20,710
$5 your increase is if somebody's spending

1308
01:58:21,810 --> 01:58:24,870
50, 100, 200, whatever they spend a year.

1309
01:58:25,130 --> 01:58:27,430
So I just wanted to help me put it in perspective.

1310
01:58:29,270 --> 01:58:30,730
I'm Chair Whit, representative Reardon.

1311
01:58:31,330 --> 01:58:32,310
It's a great question.

1312
01:58:33,370 --> 01:58:38,210
In my pocket, I have over $250 of licenses and tags to hunt fish in Oregon.

1313
01:58:38,990 --> 01:58:39,650
So we're a family.

1314
01:58:40,190 --> 01:58:43,030
That can really mount up, especially in family in rural Oregon,

1315
01:58:43,950 --> 01:58:48,510
where maybe the job isn't really what we classify in Portland is a family wage earning

1316
01:58:48,510 --> 01:58:49,610
a job.

1317
01:58:49,610 --> 01:58:57,710
So it does mount up, each little cost, and I'm an exception, I'm like Joe, you know, I

1318
01:58:57,710 --> 01:58:58,610
hunt in fish a lot.

1319
01:58:58,850 --> 01:59:01,170
So I'm very willing to pay, and I'm capable of paying.

1320
01:59:01,590 --> 01:59:05,110
But we really do have to look at those who aren't who can't.

1321
01:59:05,310 --> 01:59:10,250
Participations declining means that obviously rates are going to go up.

1322
01:59:11,730 --> 01:59:17,870
And so it's difficult for many families, and you look at $2 here.

1323
01:59:17,870 --> 01:59:26,110
$5 here. Pretty soon here of saying now. Do I do this? Or do I do that? And these are

1324
01:59:26,110 --> 01:59:30,830
discretionary spending. It's a recreational discretionary spending. And that's always

1325
01:59:30,830 --> 01:59:32,190
the first to go.

1326
01:59:34,820 --> 01:59:39,300
Hopefully I helped. Mr. Chair representative, there are studies out there

1327
01:59:39,300 --> 01:59:44,000
that show how much our volumes are spending on hunting and fishing and is broken down

1328
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:50,480
county and the revenues are generated through business local businesses things of that

1329
01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:55,640
nature that really make you become aware of what how much families are participating in these

1330
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:59,500
sports. So we'd be glad to get that information. I love to see you.

1331
02:00:01,840 --> 02:00:15,040
The one thing I will state though that if they don't buy the license, they won't do the rest. They won't go out and buy the equipment. They won't go out and do this. They won't travel. They won't, you know, everything comes to a halt.

1332
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:23,520
Chair, what Representative is called, that's very fair. On the average, Oregon, we'll spend

1333
02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:30,040
$1,200 a year on his money. And it's about what it works out when he's a licensed buyer,

1334
02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:37,440
he'll spend additional $1,200. This is not really a cheap sport and it's difficult. And so,

1335
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:41,120
you know, that's where I think incremental increases actually impact.

1336
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:48,340
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would also like to get the information regarding counties

1337
02:00:49,020 --> 02:00:54,760
in particular, but I've got to say this, you know, and I've lived in my house since

1338
02:00:54,760 --> 02:01:02,040
77. My block. There is probably one other person on my block right now who goes fishing.

1339
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:09,580
No one else, no one does hunting, as far as I can tell. That was not the case when I moved in.

1340
02:01:09,580 --> 02:01:16,700
It was on a regular basis. The folks across the street for me, the other the families would go out and go hunting and fishing.

1341
02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:24,520
Not big and it was not an issue of money. It was an issue of culture, of this is what they did.

1342
02:01:25,720 --> 02:01:28,820
And the fact is right now, that's not what's going on.

1343
02:01:29,260 --> 02:01:34,380
I mean, I always joke that I don't have any farms in my district. I have a lot of chickens.

1344
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:44,500
And I do have a lot of chickens, the latest poster that was put on the telephone pole, the other day was found white chicken.

1345
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:50,740
But, uh, so Peppot Landy is not too far from reality.

1346
02:01:52,500 --> 02:01:53,180
What was this name?

1347
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:54,160
I don't know.

1348
02:01:54,260 --> 02:01:55,280
They didn't have a name for it.

1349
02:01:55,480 --> 02:01:56,060
No, it's that found.

1350
02:01:56,460 --> 02:01:58,520
There was no one asking for white chicken.

1351
02:01:59,780 --> 02:02:03,540
My point is that there's a culture change that has taken place.

1352
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:11,220
The average Oregonian, or certainly in Portland, I think, would have you would have found

1353
02:02:11,220 --> 02:02:16,640
several hunters and fishing people on my block 30 years ago, 20 years ago.

1354
02:02:16,820 --> 02:02:18,260
That is not the case anymore.

1355
02:02:19,100 --> 02:02:24,640
And so the money that's coming in is coming in from a much smaller group of people than

1356
02:02:24,640 --> 02:02:25,580
we used to have.

1357
02:02:25,580 --> 02:02:29,020
And in rural communities, that's part of the culture.

1358
02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:30,620
That's exactly what you do.

1359
02:02:31,940 --> 02:02:35,020
But in Portland, in the metro area,

1360
02:02:35,180 --> 02:02:36,960
the folks who are moving into the metro area

1361
02:02:36,960 --> 02:02:39,740
are not coming from the rural communities of Oregon.

1362
02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:42,440
They're coming in from outside the state.

1363
02:02:42,900 --> 02:02:44,200
And they're coming in from urban areas

1364
02:02:44,200 --> 02:02:47,020
that are not interested as interested or knowledgeable

1365
02:02:47,020 --> 02:02:48,320
about fishing and hunting.

1366
02:02:48,760 --> 02:02:50,800
So they don't even think about a license.

1367
02:02:50,940 --> 02:02:53,260
In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if I went to talk

1368
02:02:53,880 --> 02:02:59,920
most of the many of the folks in my district I would ask them how much a hunting license was they

1369
02:02:59,920 --> 02:03:06,960
will want to know what a hunting license was. So that's something that we need to recognize

1370
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:11,880
that we have had a cultural change. We need to be able to support the folks who are continuing to

1371
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:17,940
do that and enjoy it. I don't do any hunting anymore. I don't do some fishing when I get a chance

1372
02:03:17,940 --> 02:03:37,200
But we need to really understand that there has been a significant change, and we need to support the people who are still doing it in a way that there are also supports the ability for those biologists to do the research and to study and support them when they do the research even when it comes back the way that you may not want it to.

1373
02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:45,280
very well said thank you Mr. Chair representative very well said thank you come what comes to my mind as he's

1374
02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:57,260
OTFW did a survey and actually a study of the trends that you're talking about and it was fascinating and I'll see if I can get that for you to leave that

1375
02:04:05,040 --> 02:04:13,280
I'm trying to, I'm trying to draw conclusions from what you stated and my mind's going

1376
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:18,460
to 1000 miles an hour here trying to get my arms around it.

1377
02:04:18,460 --> 02:04:23,900
But I think you're suggesting that we do

1378
02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:27,340
fish and wildlife management.

1379
02:04:27,540 --> 02:04:29,560
It's not fish and wildlife management.

1380
02:04:29,760 --> 02:04:32,120
We are managing hunting and fishing.

1381
02:04:32,740 --> 02:04:35,160
Human populations of hunters and fishers.

1382
02:04:35,180 --> 02:04:36,340
That's what we are managing.

1383
02:04:36,760 --> 02:04:38,500
I think is what you were telling me.

1384
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:41,020
And I think what you were telling me was

1385
02:04:41,020 --> 02:04:44,020
is that we sort that out by price.

1386
02:04:45,460 --> 02:04:54,020
And that by logical extension, what all of you said was that because of that price,

1387
02:04:56,060 --> 02:05:00,000
I, who can afford it, is representative Esquivel just.

1388
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:11,400
Said, get to go out and deer camp in elk camp. But my experience, if we keep to this model,

1389
02:05:13,420 --> 02:05:19,360
is really not that different from the person who we've priced out of the market, because they don't get to hunt or fish.

1390
02:05:19,360 --> 02:05:27,660
And I don't get, I don't get to see the animals as, as, as, as Al was alluding to.

1391
02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:36,440
And so by managing hunters and fishers by price, we have actually sacrificed the experience

1392
02:05:36,440 --> 02:05:42,900
for those hunters and fishers, and we are not managing fish and wildlife.

1393
02:05:42,900 --> 02:05:55,440
Now, if that's what you're telling me, then this begs for a pretty significant shift.

1394
02:05:56,760 --> 02:06:00,720
Mr. Chair, I think for my own personal standpoint,

1395
02:06:03,320 --> 02:06:06,120
when I was a kid, fish and while

1396
02:06:06,120 --> 02:06:10,420
like management was hunting and fishing management, but that's not the case anymore.

1397
02:06:10,420 --> 02:06:17,580
Now when you manage for hunting and fishing or the ability to hunt fish, you have to do a lot of other things.

1398
02:06:18,540 --> 02:06:22,920
To do requirements for other laws, so you can hunt fish.

1399
02:06:23,600 --> 02:06:30,660
We found out that there's science that we need to gather in order for us to have sustainable wildlife populations.

1400
02:06:31,660 --> 02:06:36,260
And we've also started to understand that we need to manage in a holistic manner.

1401
02:06:36,260 --> 02:06:43,480
that we can't manage metal arcs and then manage foxes separately that we need to have

1402
02:06:43,480 --> 02:06:47,220
some kind of of overall management system.

1403
02:06:47,220 --> 02:06:59,740
I think we're transition and this, my point was that the funding crisis is going to cause

1404
02:06:59,740 --> 02:07:09,540
us to have a discussion as we transition into being able to pay for adequate science and

1405
02:07:09,540 --> 02:07:16,240
management of all the species that live in Oregon. And that that's going to be very expensive.

1406
02:07:16,820 --> 02:07:22,500
And that somehow, how are they going to say, well, we've had to pay for that. And the general

1407
02:07:22,500 --> 02:07:29,280
public is saying, well, use our general funds for things that we want to send it on. And I think

1408
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:36,740
It's a horrible dilemma for us to go through, but I think this body, and you all have worked

1409
02:07:36,740 --> 02:07:40,260
together for a year now, and so we all have a pretty good idea how you work.

1410
02:07:40,940 --> 02:07:46,880
You've been capable of asking those questions, and we'd like to help you find answers to

1411
02:07:46,880 --> 02:07:47,680
those questions.

1412
02:07:48,320 --> 02:07:53,020
We're all getting kind of old, and we're not going to be here very long, and it'd be nice

1413
02:07:53,020 --> 02:07:58,300
to leave a place where somebody wanted to go out and see if box could see if box.

1414
02:08:01,300 --> 02:08:08,700
I am 15 seconds away from taking you up on your offer. You have 15 seconds to change your mind.

1415
02:08:10,020 --> 02:08:12,400
I'm not seeing any of you leaving no doubt.

1416
02:08:15,040 --> 02:08:23,280
I would like to ask the three of you to be to work with Beth to form a work room to find those answers.

1417
02:08:23,780 --> 02:08:24,040
Thank you.

1418
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:26,240
We will. Thank you very much, sir.

1419
02:08:27,400 --> 02:08:29,440
With that, thank you very much.

1420
02:08:29,780 --> 02:08:30,160
Thank you.

1421
02:08:30,160 --> 02:08:37,880
We need some help from some other folks that are interested in this, and so if we might add a few more people, we'd appreciate it.

1422
02:08:38,140 --> 02:08:40,560
We have the power of draft here in this.

1423
02:08:45,640 --> 02:08:51,460
Yes, the recruiters right outside the door, by the way. Thank you very much.

1424
02:08:51,460 --> 02:08:52,160
Thank you, sir.

1425
02:08:53,260 --> 02:08:55,760
With that, we're going to shift to a comprehensive

1426
02:08:55,760 --> 02:08:57,060
predator control.

1427
02:08:57,380 --> 02:09:00,300
And I'd like to call up, please, Ron Anglin and Scott

1428
02:09:00,300 --> 02:09:00,840
Becksted.

1429
02:09:13,530 --> 02:09:14,090
We'll see.

1430
02:09:14,510 --> 02:09:15,770
Good afternoon, Chair Whit.

1431
02:09:15,810 --> 02:09:17,750
Members of the committee, once again, Ron Anglin,

1432
02:09:17,950 --> 02:09:19,270
wildlife division administrator.

1433
02:09:21,410 --> 02:09:25,830
I do have a short PowerPoint presentation for you here

1434
02:09:26,290 --> 02:09:28,910
that I thought I'd run through real quick.

1435
02:09:29,310 --> 02:09:31,750
Again, being sensitive to your time.

1436
02:09:32,490 --> 02:09:34,270
I'll kind of zip through some things.

1437
02:09:34,930 --> 02:09:40,110
We do, and this is based on some of the input that we've received from you on what you were looking for today.

1438
02:09:40,810 --> 02:09:44,970
We have had a lot of focus in the last few years on a Swedish species.

1439
02:09:45,610 --> 02:09:48,830
Some of those we've been in front of this committee to discuss in the past,

1440
02:09:48,930 --> 02:09:53,470
also in front of the Senate Environment Committee to discuss.

1441
02:09:54,210 --> 02:09:57,450
We'll gloss over several of them right here,

1442
02:09:57,670 --> 02:09:59,950
and then go into more detail on several of the other.

1443
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:28,880
You know, as you're all well aware, we've got very liberal citizens down on several of our species. We've done everything we can, holding price down on veritags, cover tags, and providing multiple opportunities for hunters, success rates on for our hunters on some of these species are not very high, and our ability to manage populations based on that is fairly limited.

1444
02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:35,840
Wolves is your well aware and we've reported to you before our coming in our here in the state.

1445
02:10:36,440 --> 02:10:41,540
We are initiating research in Northeast Oregon on the interaction of Wolves, Cougars,

1446
02:10:42,100 --> 02:10:50,140
Dere and Elk, and looking at how all of that plays out as Wolves re-established themselves

1447
02:10:50,140 --> 02:10:58,400
on the landscape of what that does to praise species and populations, and whether Wolves and Cougar

1448
02:10:58,400 --> 02:11:01,060
predation is additive or compensatory.

1449
02:11:01,720 --> 02:11:04,320
We've seen mixed results in some of the other states,

1450
02:11:04,620 --> 02:11:06,180
and we want to make sure that we've

1451
02:11:06,180 --> 02:11:08,160
got some really good information from Oregon

1452
02:11:08,160 --> 02:11:11,440
that can inform us in management decisions

1453
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:12,700
as we move into the future.

1454
02:11:13,900 --> 02:11:16,820
The following three, I'm going to touch on a little more detail.

1455
02:11:18,540 --> 02:11:21,800
So we'll just go ahead and move into those.

1456
02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:25,100
You're well aware of the discussions

1457
02:11:25,100 --> 02:11:26,840
that we've been having on comrades.

1458
02:11:26,840 --> 02:11:39,860
We are very involved in the lower Columbia East sand island discussions that the Corps of Engineers under taking the EIS, they're working on, we're part of.

1459
02:11:39,900 --> 02:11:49,060
We have co-operator status in development of that EIS and in the various alternatives that they have in place.

1460
02:11:49,640 --> 02:11:54,920
While we do support lethal management of comrades on East sand island, we've also made it very clear.

1461
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:58,620
we're not interested in tomorrow's being displaced into other coastal

1462
02:11:58,620 --> 02:12:04,080
ester worries and worries and exasperating the problem we may have in

1463
02:12:04,080 --> 02:12:09,240
some of those other ester worries. We've reported on the work that we've been

1464
02:12:09,240 --> 02:12:14,400
doing in coastal ester worries, so I won't really go into a lot of detail here

1465
02:12:14,400 --> 02:12:19,200
on this other than to say that because of the work that the course doing on

1466
02:12:19,200 --> 02:12:23,880
the Columbia, we still are waiting for analysis of the stomach

1467
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:30,400
contents that we've collected for the telemook and also for the rogue and the

1468
02:12:30,400 --> 02:12:36,660
Yampquah. We were denied a depernation permit for 2014 for the telemook. We

1469
02:12:36,660 --> 02:12:43,140
hoped to have enough or have our information back in time to include that in our

1470
02:12:43,140 --> 02:12:50,000
request for a depernation permit for the telemook in 2015. We've been able to do

1471
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:56,220
work based on the fact that you have provided this funding that we've been able to use as

1472
02:12:56,220 --> 02:13:03,840
match with our federal funds to be able to conduct the research that we've been working on.

1473
02:13:04,120 --> 02:13:13,200
What we've seen so far in the diet results in the telemook, 6% to 35% of the salmonids are being

1474
02:13:13,200 --> 02:13:23,180
soon, in the diet of quamerons, we've got a multitude of species that results in about 1 to 4%

1475
02:13:23,180 --> 02:13:28,840
of the out migrants annually coming out of the different river systems into the telemook.

1476
02:13:30,280 --> 02:13:36,200
In the yum-quang, the row, the diet composition, the salmons is a little bit different than

1477
02:13:36,200 --> 02:13:38,080
what we've seen so far in the telemook.

1478
02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:44,260
the picture in the bottom right there is a pickle fish and that was

1479
02:13:44,260 --> 02:13:50,520
completely contained inside the stomach of a quamerant so it was pretty

1480
02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:56,840
much extended from the trachea all the way through to the bottom of the stomach and

1481
02:13:57,660 --> 02:14:02,360
you know it's nothing small. I have no clue what a pickle fish is on the wildlife

1482
02:14:02,360 --> 02:14:12,100
file just. But I'll I see what they're doing now. So it maybe Ed can tell you that when

1483
02:14:12,100 --> 02:14:21,660
he's up here. So next I want to talk to you a little more detail about penipeds. We've

1484
02:14:21,660 --> 02:14:27,540
had Robin Brown here in front of you in the past talking about the programs that we've got.

1485
02:14:27,540 --> 02:14:34,700
You know, I'll just put in a plug that Oregon's penipet program is practically the only

1486
02:14:34,700 --> 02:14:36,580
penipet program on the west coast.

1487
02:14:37,060 --> 02:14:42,720
We are the leaders on providing scientific data and information to the U.S. Fish Wildlife

1488
02:14:42,720 --> 02:14:50,520
Service and Neural Fisheries on sea lion seals and other penipet management and the decisions

1489
02:14:50,520 --> 02:14:56,060
that are made in large part are due to the work that our shop does, our very small shop

1490
02:14:56,060 --> 02:14:59,960
and does depend on ongoing funding, which will...

1491
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:03,340
We wrapped into our budget request that you'll see this winner.

1492
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:12,000
So, you know, we all know that penipeds were protected under the Marine Mammal Act back in the 70s.

1493
02:15:12,620 --> 02:15:19,620
Since that point in time, we've seen substantial increases across the United States and the coastal areas of penipeds.

1494
02:15:20,140 --> 02:15:28,000
We certainly have seen that here in the West Coast and did want to point out that there is no archaeological evidence that

1495
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:34,600
that Pinnapads ever went to either Slyle Falls on the Columbia or

1496
02:15:34,600 --> 02:15:39,600
Alamut Falls and consumed Salmonets like they are today.

1497
02:15:39,740 --> 02:15:44,320
That appears to be a learned behavior and it's something new that was never

1498
02:15:44,320 --> 02:15:45,260
here historically.

1499
02:15:48,610 --> 02:15:53,690
We've reported on some of this to you in the past again on consumption rates at

1500
02:15:53,690 --> 02:15:54,750
the various sites.

1501
02:15:55,290 --> 02:16:00,110
I think that the important part of this is that the work that we've been able

1502
02:16:00,110 --> 02:16:10,930
to do on the Columbia is what led to our being able to get both hazing and removal of sea

1503
02:16:10,930 --> 02:16:19,570
lions in the Columbia, and we also based on things that we're working on right now

1504
02:16:19,570 --> 02:16:27,750
are looking at how we can provide the information necessary that would allow us to request

1505
02:16:27,750 --> 02:16:31,890
for potential removal of sea lions at Willamut Falls.

1506
02:16:33,070 --> 02:16:36,110
So there's a lot of work that's been going on.

1507
02:16:36,250 --> 02:16:38,830
It's been ongoing for a lot of years

1508
02:16:38,830 --> 02:16:42,670
and it's been pretty critical to our success

1509
02:16:42,670 --> 02:16:46,070
and being able to move forward on different things.

1510
02:16:47,590 --> 02:16:50,370
The last thing I want to touch on is Cougars.

1511
02:16:52,350 --> 02:16:55,790
Certainly, we feel like we have a very robust

1512
02:16:55,790 --> 02:17:16,790
cougar population in the state, you know, the question that really came up relative to cougars is in relation to deer and elk, and, you know, as you're well aware, deer and elk, and their survivability, their ability to expand is based on primarily on three different things.

1513
02:17:16,790 --> 02:17:26,750
You know, it's habitat disease and and predation and what we've found here in the state is by and large habitat is not a limiting factor for elk.

1514
02:17:27,470 --> 02:17:33,530
We may be starting to see some problems here in western Oregon, but by and large in eastern Oregon that hasn't been the case.

1515
02:17:34,010 --> 02:17:40,910
We do feel that habitat is limiting for deer, especially in western Oregon for blacktail deer.

1516
02:17:40,910 --> 02:17:45,870
You know, you've heard earlier on the Forest Health Initiative, some of the things being discussed.

1517
02:17:46,370 --> 02:17:52,690
Certainly, we see on federal lands, there are not early successful stage habitats that are conducive for deer.

1518
02:17:53,590 --> 02:17:58,990
And we've been working with forestry on trying to come up with ways to address that.

1519
02:17:59,730 --> 02:18:05,630
From a disease standpoint, again, that's not at this point of problem for elk, but it is a concern for deer.

1520
02:18:05,630 --> 02:18:12,550
And they are different diseases on both black-tailed deer and in mild deer that have

1521
02:18:12,550 --> 02:18:15,590
cropped up that historically we never had to deal with.

1522
02:18:16,330 --> 02:18:22,510
And now when drought conditions occur we end up with losses, not a way that we can actually

1523
02:18:22,510 --> 02:18:23,370
treat those.

1524
02:18:23,770 --> 02:18:27,810
And then finally, predation, there's really two ways that predation occurs and that's either

1525
02:18:27,810 --> 02:18:33,670
human caused or that's from what we'll call an actual predator like a cougar.

1526
02:18:33,670 --> 02:18:37,890
You know, in the human caused ones, the one I did put up here is Roadkill.

1527
02:18:38,630 --> 02:18:44,010
There are significant number of deer in particular that are killed on Oregon's highways.

1528
02:18:45,170 --> 02:18:46,710
Poaching is a problem.

1529
02:18:48,050 --> 02:18:54,410
And we certainly, in our different state radiometry studies that we've done when we look

1530
02:18:54,410 --> 02:19:00,890
at losses of our radio-collar animals, we've documented up to 19 percent of those losses

1531
02:19:00,890 --> 02:19:07,510
have been as a result of poaching, and in the most recent one, it was the same, or virtually

1532
02:19:07,510 --> 02:19:14,210
the same as the amount of losses that occurred from Prudation primarily to Cougars.

1533
02:19:15,530 --> 02:19:20,770
We've had historical studies on deer and elk that have been in that 15 to 20 percent range

1534
02:19:20,770 --> 02:19:22,470
on poaching.

1535
02:19:22,730 --> 02:19:29,190
Legislature has helped out or tried to help out with increased penalties, and one of the

1536
02:19:29,190 --> 02:19:36,890
things that we have identified is high road densities and access to animals is really contributing

1537
02:19:36,890 --> 02:19:40,930
to the ease of people being able to go out and poach.

1538
02:19:41,010 --> 02:19:47,450
When we find poached animals, our radio-collar animals, they are not half mile away from

1539
02:19:47,450 --> 02:19:47,910
a road.

1540
02:19:48,190 --> 02:19:49,210
They're right next to a road.

1541
02:19:49,570 --> 02:19:54,450
And in some areas with the road densities that we have, it makes it very hard for those

1542
02:19:54,450 --> 02:19:59,910
animals to get away and not be easily accessible from somebody.

1543
02:20:00,000 --> 02:20:08,520
That's got a vent for poaching. Cutting seasons, the other way that we can see that I'm going to term

1544
02:20:08,520 --> 02:20:14,700
predation, you know, we influence populations through our hunting seasons, certainly whether

1545
02:20:14,700 --> 02:20:21,120
their damage hunts or their population level hunts, we can manipulate populations up and down with

1546
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:26,280
what we do. Primarily through our cow harvest, not through bull or buck harvest, but through cow or

1547
02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:29,020
harvest is how we manipulate populations.

1548
02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:32,940
The final thing relative to

1549
02:20:32,940 --> 02:20:40,920
predation is what happens from critters on the ground. Cougar predation it occurs.

1550
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:47,120
And we certainly, you know, we've been a leader in the West on our research relative

1551
02:20:47,120 --> 02:20:53,160
to Cougar Management over the course of the last 25 years in documenting predation rates

1552
02:20:53,160 --> 02:21:00,080
and documenting interaction with the cougar and deer and elk and influencing populations.

1553
02:21:02,380 --> 02:21:08,980
And, you know, we certainly, as you're well aware, and you've heard from us before, we don't manage cougars.

1554
02:21:09,460 --> 02:21:16,580
At this point in time, you know, the amount of hunting that occurs is pretty minimal, amount of harvest that occurs is pretty minimal.

1555
02:21:16,580 --> 02:21:22,580
We don't manage coogers as a big game animal to the same level that we manage during elk.

1556
02:21:23,520 --> 02:21:29,060
And we've been working towards getting the tools set in place that would allow us to do that,

1557
02:21:29,660 --> 02:21:34,780
being able to set management objectives, being able to refine population objectives.

1558
02:21:35,640 --> 02:21:39,640
And quite frankly, I think we're getting very, very close that we can start

1559
02:21:39,640 --> 02:21:48,860
We're creating some of that stuff out and start setting what we would turn to be population objectives for coogers, similar to what we do for deer and elk.

1560
02:21:50,700 --> 02:21:56,380
And some of our research that just was wrapped up, and I was hoping we'd have more time I'd be able to touch on that today.

1561
02:21:56,900 --> 02:22:04,920
We've got some ways now that we feel we can come in and make population estimates at the unit level.

1562
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:09,820
They're expensive to do, but we feel like we've got some ways to do that.

1563
02:22:09,940 --> 02:22:15,320
We're refining what that might mean, and when we update the cougar plan the next time,

1564
02:22:15,520 --> 02:22:20,940
how we can trot that out in a way that would allow us to more effectively manage cougars.

1565
02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:26,000
I wanted to show you some of the things that we've done.

1566
02:22:29,960 --> 02:22:32,200
Can you put a wrap on this?

1567
02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:32,820
Yes sir.

1568
02:22:32,820 --> 02:22:39,880
time I've got two slides. Okay. So I wanted to touch real quick on the Heppner Management

1569
02:22:39,880 --> 02:22:45,900
area where we implemented a Cougar target area where we wanted to test the effect of reducing

1570
02:22:45,900 --> 02:22:51,540
the Cougar population and how an elk population would respond. You can see in this slide

1571
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:58,960
that the elk population, the green line, had been declining through time. Calf recruitment

1572
02:22:58,960 --> 02:23:05,780
was declining with that. When we saw the population declining, we responded. We decreased

1573
02:23:05,780 --> 02:23:12,800
hunting opportunity. We decreased antlerostags. We decreased bolt tags. At the same time,

1574
02:23:12,940 --> 02:23:19,780
we saw some small increases, but really very little harvest of coogers. So we implemented a

1575
02:23:19,780 --> 02:23:26,300
cougar target area where we went in and administratively removed cougars ourselves. Over a three-year

1576
02:23:26,300 --> 02:23:34,360
period of time, we remove 58 cats. There were another 33 cats, 34 cats that were actually removed

1577
02:23:34,360 --> 02:23:41,520
by hunters during the same time frame, a couple of those were also on damage complaints.

1578
02:23:42,080 --> 02:23:47,520
And then we stopped the Cougar removal. And what we saw was the population responded in the

1579
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:51,740
green line. You can see that it came back up. We increased voltage.

1580
02:23:55,340 --> 02:23:56,280
We increased some

1581
02:23:56,280 --> 02:23:56,800
up,

1582
02:23:58,900 --> 02:24:04,800
but now our camera crew is starting to decline again. And why is that? Well, as we all

1583
02:24:04,800 --> 02:24:12,680
suspected, the Cougar population rebounded. So we've run some simulations on what that looks

1584
02:24:12,680 --> 02:24:20,620
like. And we ran three different simulations our research unit did. And what we looked at with

1585
02:24:20,620 --> 02:24:29,580
the bottom line here and the diamonds is what happens in a unit if you remove a whole bunch

1586
02:24:29,580 --> 02:24:35,080
of coogers and there's no new coogers coming in. How long knowing that you only remove maybe

1587
02:24:35,080 --> 02:24:41,740
50% of the cats? How long would it take for that cat population to recover? And what we found was

1588
02:24:41,740 --> 02:24:49,380
by year four, the cat population was starting to bounce back and by year six we were back to pre-removable

1589
02:24:49,380 --> 02:24:55,340
levels so then we looked at what if we had low immigration levels coming in from adjacent

1590
02:24:55,340 --> 02:24:59,680
units and then high immigration levels coming in from adjacent units.

1591
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:07,060
How soon would we expect to see the cougar population rebound assuming you had no more cougar removal?

1592
02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:15,960
And it was anywhere from two to three years. So that also leads into the whole discussion on managing cougars and managing population.

1593
02:25:16,120 --> 02:25:20,500
Similar to what we do with Derenelk, because certainly we could have more Derenelk than what we do.

1594
02:25:20,500 --> 02:25:26,220
but socially, we look at habitat, we look at landowner tolerance for those numbers and we

1595
02:25:26,220 --> 02:25:28,660
manage below what the carrying capacity is.

1596
02:25:28,800 --> 02:25:33,840
We don't do that with coogers and what we need to set the stage for, and what we're setting

1597
02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:38,740
the stage for is getting to the point where we can make those choices on, we want to manage

1598
02:25:38,740 --> 02:25:46,740
coogers in conjunction with Derenelk and work for a broad range of values, recognizing we don't

1599
02:25:46,740 --> 02:25:51,520
white coovers out, we want to maintain a healthy population of them, but in conjunction with other species.

1600
02:25:53,300 --> 02:25:55,240
And I'm not going to run through all that.

1601
02:25:55,480 --> 02:25:56,260
That's it.

1602
02:25:56,800 --> 02:25:57,960
Thank you very much.

1603
02:25:58,640 --> 02:25:59,680
Scott, welcome to our committee.

1604
02:25:59,940 --> 02:26:00,760
Good to see you.

1605
02:26:00,940 --> 02:26:01,440
Thank you.

1606
02:26:01,960 --> 02:26:03,460
Chair Whit, members of the committee.

1607
02:26:03,900 --> 02:26:08,660
For the record Scott Beckstead, Senior Oregon Director for the Humane Society of the United States.

1608
02:26:09,240 --> 02:26:13,020
Also the Western Regional Director for the Humane Society of the United States.

1609
02:26:13,620 --> 02:26:22,500
Here to speak on the issue of predators, and I share with, I sympathize with your time constraints

1610
02:26:23,240 --> 02:26:25,340
when I took over as mayor of Walport.

1611
02:26:25,460 --> 02:26:30,600
We had a long sad history of city council meetings that lasted till two in the morning, and

1612
02:26:30,600 --> 02:26:33,780
my first order of business was to get those down to an hour and a half or less.

1613
02:26:33,780 --> 02:26:35,600
So I'm going to try and make this very brief.

1614
02:26:38,040 --> 02:26:47,220
I handed out in my material some biological information about our position on the effects of predators,

1615
02:26:48,700 --> 02:26:51,460
on wildlife species and populations.

1616
02:26:52,640 --> 02:27:03,600
I would like to add to that just a request that you, whenever you're looking at policy changes regarding predators,

1617
02:27:03,600 --> 02:27:11,380
that you take into account evolving social trends and attitudes toward predators, and where

1618
02:27:11,380 --> 02:27:16,360
we are now versus where we were, say, 50 or 60 years ago with respect to predators.

1619
02:27:17,480 --> 02:27:22,960
The trend generally, and this is reflected in the fact that more and more of your constituents

1620
02:27:22,960 --> 02:27:32,140
want predators protected and and moreover that is enhanced by the fact that

1621
02:27:33,200 --> 02:27:35,940
predators, more than

1622
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:41,720
that's probably for me.

1623
02:27:44,350 --> 02:27:53,710
The methods used on predators are methods that are not used on other wildlife species.

1624
02:27:54,510 --> 02:27:58,990
These impacts of dogs, the use of bait, piles of bait and forest.

1625
02:27:59,950 --> 02:28:02,850
Leg, steel, jawed, leg, whole traps, wires, snares.

1626
02:28:04,290 --> 02:28:09,470
Large volume killing contests, especially involving coyotes, and springbearhants that

1627
02:28:09,470 --> 02:28:11,590
leave baby cubs orphaned in the woods.

1628
02:28:12,610 --> 02:28:17,110
Now the voters have already banned two of those methods, and nationwide, we're seeing these

1629
02:28:17,110 --> 02:28:19,970
methods targeted by voters and by legislatures.

1630
02:28:19,970 --> 02:28:25,210
And I'm not here to say that the Humane Society wants to ban Predator hunting.

1631
02:28:25,330 --> 02:28:34,410
What I'm saying is that predators deserve the same basic level of respect as every other species.

1632
02:28:35,810 --> 02:28:47,490
And when you see the kind of images on Facebook and social media and the Internet of what people do to predators more than they do to other wildlife species,

1633
02:28:47,490 --> 02:28:53,430
What that does is it turns non-huntars into anti-huntars.

1634
02:28:54,410 --> 02:29:00,690
And this conversation about decreasing populations of hunters and decreasing participation,

1635
02:29:01,630 --> 02:29:08,130
if there was a greater respect, according to these species, there would be a lot less

1636
02:29:08,130 --> 02:29:08,690
outrage.

1637
02:29:09,790 --> 02:29:15,450
And that outrage is inevitably going to turn into policy, one way or the other.

1638
02:29:17,750 --> 02:29:24,930
So, I've always said that if it weren't for coogers and wolves and sea lions, I'd probably

1639
02:29:24,930 --> 02:29:27,790
have an existential crisis and wouldn't know what to do with myself, at least while I'm

1640
02:29:27,790 --> 02:29:29,350
in that in this building.

1641
02:29:29,450 --> 02:29:36,010
I guess we can add comrades to that list of roads, but the Humane Society is very proud to

1642
02:29:36,010 --> 02:29:39,030
stand for these species, and we believe that they are and fairly scapegoated.

1643
02:29:39,650 --> 02:29:45,310
And we are encouraging you as lawmakers, as policy makers, who care about wildlife, to

1644
02:29:45,310 --> 02:29:50,530
take a kind approach that is balanced and fair and humane. Thank you for your time.

1645
02:29:50,850 --> 02:29:54,450
Thank you very much. Burning questions.

1646
02:29:56,670 --> 02:29:59,230
Gentlemen, thank you both very, very much.

1647
02:29:59,550 --> 02:29:59,950
Like to call.

1648
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:01,660
All up, please,

1649
02:30:03,800 --> 02:30:12,440
Joe Ricker, George Houston, in Steans Steel. And gentlemen, if you can help me, I have

1650
02:30:12,440 --> 02:30:19,800
one more segment to do after you before 5 o'clock. So I'm doing what you can do to help me here, manage

1651
02:30:19,800 --> 02:30:20,780
the time. Thank you.

1652
02:30:20,780 --> 02:30:21,800
I've got to look to there.

1653
02:30:22,900 --> 02:30:23,460
Great job.

1654
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:28,580
Chair, what members of the committee, I'm Joe Ricker.

1655
02:30:29,040 --> 02:30:30,620
Chairman of the Oregon Hunters Association.

1656
02:30:31,040 --> 02:30:32,520
Chairman of the Board, Oregon Hunters Association.

1657
02:30:33,340 --> 02:30:37,240
I'm going to skip my first paragraph and go to the last three points that I want to make.

1658
02:30:38,120 --> 02:30:39,580
The first one is a sage grouse.

1659
02:30:39,700 --> 02:30:44,400
As you know, they are being considered for listing under the Indian Species Act.

1660
02:30:45,080 --> 02:30:50,060
The listing of this bird will have an adverse impact on the economy of those regions of Oregon, where they occur.

1661
02:30:50,840 --> 02:30:57,240
Oregon has been able to maintain a viable population of sage grass, but as indicated by

1662
02:30:57,240 --> 02:31:02,220
studies, predation is a major factor in the decline of sage grass across the range.

1663
02:31:03,180 --> 02:31:11,140
A recent study in northwestern Nevada, not far from home, indicates that over 88% of the

1664
02:31:11,140 --> 02:31:19,200
there were monitored or depredated. In another study, done in a very recent past, they showed

1665
02:31:19,200 --> 02:31:26,720
a 94% of the nest were depredated. The solution for these grass management is a balanced

1666
02:31:26,720 --> 02:31:34,700
approach with management of habitat and depredation. That's very short of what I attended

1667
02:31:34,700 --> 02:31:40,160
to say, so I move on to elk and deer. Elk and deer numbers of decline in many areas

1668
02:31:40,160 --> 02:31:42,520
over the last several years.

1669
02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:49,480
Their studies that indicate high predation densities explain the overwhelming majority of variations

1670
02:31:49,480 --> 02:31:52,600
in cash to recruitment.

1671
02:31:53,840 --> 02:32:01,700
Cougars kill about 1.55% more ungulants in summer than in winter because they are killing

1672
02:32:01,700 --> 02:32:04,780
the elk calves and the deer fawns.

1673
02:32:04,780 --> 02:32:13,880
This is needed to meet their nutritional requirements because I think the fact that more kills in summer

1674
02:32:15,340 --> 02:32:20,500
results is that there's about 75% of the elk killed during the summer

1675
02:32:21,020 --> 02:32:29,420
are in fact the calves and about 40% of the 6% of the deer that are killed in the summer are funds

1676
02:32:33,260 --> 02:32:39,880
This flies in the face of the old wives tale that they kill the old and the inflamed

1677
02:32:39,880 --> 02:32:40,540
ungulates.

1678
02:32:41,220 --> 02:32:44,100
In fact, they're killing the future of the ungulates.

1679
02:32:47,010 --> 02:32:53,730
In this lame study, it states that in the past 10 to 15 years, the calf to cow ratios

1680
02:32:53,730 --> 02:32:59,550
at the end of the winter was below the level needed to maintain elk populations in

1681
02:32:59,550 --> 02:33:00,550
with East Oregon.

1682
02:33:02,610 --> 02:33:08,950
My next point, ODF and DOB implemented a Mueller initiative a few years ago,

1683
02:33:09,530 --> 02:33:15,270
and we applaud them for doing so. You saw part of their results on what happens when you

1684
02:33:15,270 --> 02:33:17,250
removed predators in a region.

1685
02:33:19,490 --> 02:33:22,830
There's indications that this is not only the only unit

1686
02:33:22,830 --> 02:33:27,090
of course, for a predator removal has assisted

1687
02:33:27,090 --> 02:33:31,370
the deer populations, and I applaud them for doing that.

1688
02:33:32,530 --> 02:33:36,070
All of the clients cannot be a contributed predation.

1689
02:33:36,750 --> 02:33:39,450
However, predation management is as action

1690
02:33:39,450 --> 02:33:42,330
that can and should be taken in the short term

1691
02:33:42,330 --> 02:33:46,810
to assist in maintaining and enhancing wildlife numbers in Oregon.

1692
02:33:47,870 --> 02:33:49,950
Sheriff, what that's about as quick as I can make it.

1693
02:33:50,050 --> 02:33:51,390
You did an excellent job.

1694
02:33:51,390 --> 02:33:53,230
Thanks for the help, truly appreciated.

1695
02:33:58,100 --> 02:34:03,820
Mr. Whitman, members of the committee, my name is George Huston, I'm the President

1696
02:34:03,820 --> 02:34:07,180
of the Oregon Chapter of the Foundation for North American Wild Cheat.

1697
02:34:07,800 --> 02:34:08,060
Welcome.

1698
02:34:08,780 --> 02:34:09,600
Thank you.

1699
02:34:09,820 --> 02:34:15,700
This morning, when the sun came up in the state of Oregon, in Wala County, we had 12

1700
02:34:15,700 --> 02:34:22,900
heards of Rocky Mountain big orange sheep, a real success story. Likewise, we had 32

1701
02:34:22,900 --> 02:34:30,520
heards, we have 32 heards of California big horns in the state of Oregon today. The staff

1702
02:34:30,520 --> 02:34:39,520
and the employees, the bios on the ground in different parts of the state are doing really,

1703
02:34:39,520 --> 02:34:45,460
really good work for Big Horn sheep and the places they have a tea.

1704
02:34:46,340 --> 02:34:51,120
We've got a really good opportunity for hunters that we want to see continue.

1705
02:34:53,000 --> 02:35:00,000
Interestingly enough, by 1912, there were no California Big Horn sheep in the state.

1706
02:35:01,720 --> 02:35:14,580
In 1954, ODFW went to British Columbia and brought back 22 head of California Big Horn sheep and they took

1707
02:35:14,580 --> 02:35:21,600
them to heart mountain national handle refuge in southeastern Oregon and they released them. Did

1708
02:35:21,600 --> 02:35:32,000
absolutely a superb job. By 1992 we had 600 individuals sheep on heart mountain. Fast forwarding

1709
02:35:32,000 --> 02:35:35,420
to last year we have 168.

1710
02:35:37,500 --> 02:35:44,940
It appears that Cougar Prudation on the heart mountain national

1711
02:35:44,940 --> 02:35:54,040
antelope refuge is reducing the amount of big orange sheep markedly. We'd like to see the

1712
02:35:54,040 --> 02:36:00,160
agency look really, really hard at the Cougar Prudation Challenge there.

1713
02:36:00,820 --> 02:36:06,420
And once again, get into the Prudation Management process.

1714
02:36:07,640 --> 02:36:15,540
It's important that we consider managing the Prudation rather than eliminating the Prudation.

1715
02:36:15,980 --> 02:36:17,600
It's got to be a balanced approach.

1716
02:36:17,600 --> 02:36:24,860
We've got terrestrial aquatic and aerial predators in the state of Oregon to require our attention.

1717
02:36:26,260 --> 02:36:30,460
All the counties require that kind of help from time to time.

1718
02:36:31,580 --> 02:36:33,920
We need to have management objectives set.

1719
02:36:34,920 --> 02:36:37,240
We need a balanced management process.

1720
02:36:38,200 --> 02:36:47,520
We need projects on the ground to manage predators with metrics to match to help our rural economy.

1721
02:36:47,600 --> 02:36:55,220
come back to where they used to be in times gone by. If you drive highway 101 and you start

1722
02:36:55,220 --> 02:37:00,540
in a Lincoln City and just head north to our story and you go by the river drainages and you

1723
02:37:00,540 --> 02:37:06,760
look at the little old places that are run down and close it used to be cafes and they used to

1724
02:37:06,760 --> 02:37:13,940
serve meals every day to fishermen or hunters and you kind of wonder gee what it happened

1725
02:37:13,940 --> 02:37:19,620
if they had more hunter opportunity or fisher opportunity in those locations to think things could change.

1726
02:37:20,420 --> 02:37:22,420
I think maybe that's something we ought to consider.

1727
02:37:23,280 --> 02:37:28,920
I appreciate the opportunity to testify today and would look forward to working with you folks in the future.

1728
02:37:30,180 --> 02:37:33,680
George, let me get those figures again.

1729
02:37:33,680 --> 02:37:38,480
Sometime in the 1990s, heart mountain we went sheet population.

1730
02:37:39,480 --> 02:37:49,320
In 1992 from from zero in 1912 to 1954 when the agency transplanted the sheep from

1731
02:37:49,900 --> 02:37:59,960
Weems Lake, British Columbia, 22 sheep by aggressive support of the animals on the ground.

1732
02:37:59,960 --> 02:38:13,040
we had over 600 sheep by 1992. If you fast forward to today, we had 168 total sheep population

1733
02:38:13,040 --> 02:38:15,360
on heart mountain last year.

1734
02:38:17,820 --> 02:38:21,100
Production isn't the only challenge here. I'm not trying to paint

1735
02:38:21,100 --> 02:38:28,100
that picture. But they need some help and we need to kind of look at that process and say,

1736
02:38:28,100 --> 02:38:33,340
what can we do to swing in and make things once again balanced out.

1737
02:38:33,640 --> 02:38:35,040
Thank you very much.

1738
02:38:38,010 --> 02:38:40,010
Chair Whit, committee members, I want to make this really quick.

1739
02:38:40,170 --> 02:38:47,370
I handed out a relatively lengthy handout that talks about what we really would like to see in Oregon.

1740
02:38:48,090 --> 02:38:51,790
And the reason I'm going to make it quick is you have another really important discussion coming up.

1741
02:38:52,350 --> 02:38:58,050
So if you don't take the time to read that, and what I would request is if you do have questions, please get a hold of this.

1742
02:38:58,050 --> 02:39:04,070
We really are working on this issue daily, and I mean daily, it's a 7, 24, 7, almost, sometimes

1743
02:39:04,070 --> 02:39:04,890
issue.

1744
02:39:05,290 --> 02:39:08,370
It's not important to Oregon's future wildlife, we're not anti-predator.

1745
02:39:08,910 --> 02:39:13,670
If there's a person who's a conservationist and honor, and says he's anti-predator, he's

1746
02:39:13,670 --> 02:39:13,910
neither.

1747
02:39:14,930 --> 02:39:19,170
In other words, management, professional, science-based management.

1748
02:39:19,550 --> 02:39:24,730
With that, we'd like to see a policy, statewide policy administered by the Oregon Department

1749
02:39:25,770 --> 02:39:34,670
I've directed policy by the legislature, however, and setting up a funding source and a review that allows us to have professional science-based management.

1750
02:39:34,850 --> 02:39:35,710
Thank you.

1751
02:39:35,970 --> 02:39:37,150
Thank you very much.

1752
02:39:37,390 --> 02:39:38,070
Burning questions.

1753
02:39:39,770 --> 02:39:40,850
Gentlemen, thank you.

1754
02:39:41,050 --> 02:39:41,870
Truly appreciated.

1755
02:39:43,330 --> 02:39:45,670
Thank you for helping out with the time factor as well.

1756
02:39:46,130 --> 02:39:46,990
Call up next.

1757
02:39:47,870 --> 02:39:50,230
Please, Bill Baki and Ed Bowles.

1758
02:39:50,230 --> 02:39:53,050
So I'm on it stock transfer policy.

1759
02:40:08,460 --> 02:40:10,200
Welcome to our committee, gentlemen.

1760
02:40:12,780 --> 02:40:14,060
Thank you.

1761
02:40:16,270 --> 02:40:19,470
Chairman Witt, and members of the committee, my name is Bill Bawke.

1762
02:40:20,250 --> 02:40:22,190
I'm representing the Navy Fish Society.

1763
02:40:23,450 --> 02:40:37,410
And we presented a concept to the committee and I believe that you have that in your position to look at developing a bill for controlling stock transfers of salmon and steelhead and other fish in the state of Oregon.

1764
02:40:37,410 --> 02:40:46,390
And I want to address that the purpose for our concern and give you some scientific

1765
02:40:46,390 --> 02:40:48,830
foundation for it, which I've also supplied.

1766
02:40:50,050 --> 02:40:55,550
There's a lot of available, I only gave you a couple pages of it, but there are quotes

1767
02:40:55,550 --> 02:41:01,450
from the scientific literature that are actually studied the issue and we're going

1768
02:41:01,450 --> 02:41:10,290
way back to the 1930s has said that locally adapted salmon and steel at populations in order

1769
02:41:10,290 --> 02:41:18,010
to maintain their abundance productivity, they need to be managed as an individual stock.

1770
02:41:18,890 --> 02:41:22,630
And with that, what suggests is that you don't move fish from one watershed into another

1771
02:41:22,630 --> 02:41:23,150
watershed.

1772
02:41:24,230 --> 02:41:29,830
And the science behind that question is coming more and more clear all the time that if you're

1773
02:41:29,830 --> 02:41:36,350
maintain the diversity in life history, diversity, and we are locally adapted animal that's adapting to

1774
02:41:36,350 --> 02:41:42,750
continuous changes in the environmental circumstances both in the ocean as well as in fresh water,

1775
02:41:43,850 --> 02:41:52,070
that those those fine-tune adaptations can be disrupted by the inclusion of naturally spawning

1776
02:41:52,070 --> 02:41:56,830
stocks from another water jet, especially of more distant water jet.

1777
02:41:58,350 --> 02:42:03,130
Or a hatchery fish that has been cultivated and released into a water jet

1778
02:42:03,130 --> 02:42:10,270
to free this pond with a salmon of a wild origin, local locally adapted origin.

1779
02:42:11,590 --> 02:42:14,730
The science is pretty clear and it's getting more clear all the time.

1780
02:42:15,150 --> 02:42:19,830
The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife Scientists have identified this as a problem.

1781
02:42:19,830 --> 02:42:26,090
And in some cases, the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife has been very responsive and trying to solve that problem.

1782
02:42:26,690 --> 02:42:29,510
Good example of that would be on the Clyde Comus River.

1783
02:42:30,610 --> 02:42:35,770
The non-native summer steel head were released above North Park Reservoir.

1784
02:42:36,890 --> 02:42:39,390
ODIFW scientists looked at that issue.

1785
02:42:40,190 --> 02:42:45,470
Found that the winter steel head, which are listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act,

1786
02:42:45,470 --> 02:42:48,190
are actually declining as a result.

1787
02:42:48,510 --> 02:42:51,010
They were able to show us a result of releasing

1788
02:42:51,010 --> 02:42:52,250
summer steel ad.

1789
02:42:52,610 --> 02:42:54,770
Summer steel ad produced Juveniles.

1790
02:42:55,050 --> 02:42:57,110
They competed with Wild's summer,

1791
02:42:57,130 --> 02:42:58,950
our winter steel ad had Juveniles.

1792
02:43:00,030 --> 02:43:04,010
And as a result of the production of wild winter steel ad

1793
02:43:04,010 --> 02:43:06,670
decreased by about 50%.

1794
02:43:06,670 --> 02:43:08,290
The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife

1795
02:43:08,290 --> 02:43:13,150
recognizing this problem removes the release of

1796
02:43:13,150 --> 02:43:17,130
actually some are still above the dam, not below the dam, but above the dam, and they're

1797
02:43:17,130 --> 02:43:22,370
no longer able to pass up the fishway to above the dam, and reserve that for a wild fish,

1798
02:43:23,290 --> 02:43:25,730
sanctuary, and that population has begun to grow.

1799
02:43:26,170 --> 02:43:27,230
So that's an example.

1800
02:43:27,710 --> 02:43:32,190
Also on the Imnohan, a Grandrond River, once those such inuk were listed, they were going to

1801
02:43:32,190 --> 02:43:36,590
plant a fish in the wildlife to a non-native system, and they went out and went to a local

1802
02:43:36,590 --> 02:43:37,790
fruit stock.

1803
02:43:37,790 --> 02:43:40,150
How they identify it's six different,

1804
02:43:40,250 --> 02:43:42,110
springs, you know, can a grander on river,

1805
02:43:42,290 --> 02:43:46,330
different stocks that are adapted to various parts of the watershed.

1806
02:43:47,410 --> 02:43:50,550
And they decide to work with them as they're bringing fish in from

1807
02:43:51,350 --> 02:43:53,850
wind river down in the Columbia River Gorge.

1808
02:43:55,110 --> 02:43:57,970
So those are good, good indications that the department

1809
02:43:57,970 --> 02:44:01,050
is following the literature, the science,

1810
02:44:01,650 --> 02:44:07,150
and is also following the information and recommendations of their staff,

1811
02:44:07,150 --> 02:44:09,790
But it's not always the case, and that's the problem.

1812
02:44:11,530 --> 02:44:19,650
It's kind of a situation where if it doesn't fit with our fishery goals, and we're not going

1813
02:44:19,650 --> 02:44:29,550
to do a managed program, so that has actually been a fitting and protecting the life history

1814
02:44:29,550 --> 02:44:31,230
diversity of the wild population.

1815
02:44:31,770 --> 02:44:34,790
An example of that, for instance, is on the Santam River.

1816
02:44:34,790 --> 02:44:38,950
Another one is on the Mollala River, another one's on a mechanical river.

1817
02:44:39,390 --> 02:44:43,750
We're in case for the bringing fish in from other watersheds, released them.

1818
02:44:44,050 --> 02:44:47,090
There's no, there's competition and influence.

1819
02:44:47,630 --> 02:44:52,590
There's predation, attraction, and predator influence on those stock fish.

1820
02:44:53,170 --> 02:44:57,790
Now, like for instance, on this anti-ammeraver, they've asked people to come in and catch the residuals.

1821
02:44:58,410 --> 02:44:59,950
Some are still had hatches.

1822
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:07,580
Number steel ed, there are not native to the Santian River in our competing with Wildwater Steel ed, there are threatened under the endangered species deck.

1823
02:45:07,740 --> 02:45:19,620
They come and fish for those juvenile steel ed that are residualized as hatchery steel ed, so that they could reduce the competition between the juvenile hatchery steel ed and the Wildwater Steel ed.

1824
02:45:20,400 --> 02:45:27,160
Well, the problem is that that problem is not getting that isn't a good way to resolve the problem, because you're also impacting wild steel ed at the same time.

1825
02:45:27,160 --> 02:45:32,400
But the thing is that the fish don't belong there, but why are they there because they

1826
02:45:32,400 --> 02:45:37,060
sell fishing licenses. That's an important thing to their agency. I understand that.

1827
02:45:38,040 --> 02:45:44,040
But at the same time, why are we allowing summer steelhead be released in that water shed

1828
02:45:44,040 --> 02:45:51,600
that are known competitors and making a problem in the anti-am when we didn't do it,

1829
02:45:51,960 --> 02:45:55,940
where we made those changes, crucial changes on the clack of us above the dam.

1830
02:45:55,940 --> 02:46:03,920
So those inconsistencies are the problem, and it's not a one thing, you know, fixes the whole

1831
02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:04,320
problem.

1832
02:46:04,820 --> 02:46:07,380
There's a lot of problems that these fish are faced with.

1833
02:46:07,780 --> 02:46:12,840
The problem is that the stock transfer policy, which was repealed on the Oregon coast,

1834
02:46:13,320 --> 02:46:19,100
established by Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife in the 1980s, to protect the native

1835
02:46:19,100 --> 02:46:25,940
They repealed it when they adopt their coastal multi species plan in order to allow

1836
02:46:25,940 --> 02:46:32,500
hatchery, introduction of spring, Chinook from the Rogue River into the Aquina and Kuzve.

1837
02:46:33,140 --> 02:46:39,420
We don't know what the impact of those fish are going to be, but the reason they decided not to allow

1838
02:46:39,420 --> 02:46:45,200
that to adopt a stock transfer policy for the coast was protect and naturally rearing

1839
02:46:45,880 --> 02:46:51,980
productive, shenook populations on the Oregon coast. That was the goal. Now we've

1840
02:46:51,980 --> 02:46:59,020
repealed it. So again, the science is clear that we need to protect these

1841
02:46:59,020 --> 02:47:05,220
locally, it after stocks. The stock transfer policy, it doesn't exist in the

1842
02:47:05,220 --> 02:47:10,860
state of Oregon by rule. It doesn't, but it isn't part of the rules, but it doesn't

1843
02:47:10,860 --> 02:47:17,500
exist as a rule, it doesn't, it isn't supported by state law, pre-count the serious

1844
02:47:17,500 --> 02:47:23,460
deflation of any indigenous species, but it doesn't exist as a requirement under state

1845
02:47:23,460 --> 02:47:30,040
law not to transfer these fish and protect these fish. The, a lot, a lot most of which are

1846
02:47:30,040 --> 02:47:35,800
listed as, has threatened species under the Endangered Species Act. That's an obligation,

1847
02:47:35,800 --> 02:47:42,620
recover those transferring fish from water one water shed or a hatchery into another one

1848
02:47:42,620 --> 02:47:47,880
doesn't help you accomplish an objective has on this at the end and the malala river and

1849
02:47:47,880 --> 02:47:56,100
and others so the the point I'm trying to make is that the science is clear on stock transfer

1850
02:47:56,100 --> 02:48:05,080
don't do it if you're going to avoid it don't do it the department is been compliant with the science

1851
02:48:05,080 --> 02:48:12,280
in some cases but not at all and we have species recovery problems that are being addressed

1852
02:48:12,280 --> 02:48:19,460
by the state that should be but are being frustrated by stock transfer policy not being applied

1853
02:48:19,460 --> 02:48:25,840
to those situations. So the goal is under this legislation and I think we've written it

1854
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:31,940
our concept broadly enough where it would allow some transfer of failure. For instance I said

1855
02:48:31,940 --> 02:48:37,960
And, you know, in my comments, bringing bull trout in from the materialiest was certainly

1856
02:48:37,960 --> 02:48:46,120
as an adjacent watershed to the clacamus, but it helped recover a bull trout that had gone

1857
02:48:46,120 --> 02:48:50,600
extinct in the clacamus, probably maybe it's not a good choice, but they seem to be doing

1858
02:48:50,600 --> 02:48:51,160
well.

1859
02:48:52,660 --> 02:49:00,640
And they are feeding on the ESA listed salmon and steel, you know, but you know, that's what happens

1860
02:49:00,640 --> 02:49:07,540
when you get the feds and the states arguing over what's the proper species and what should the recovery

1861
02:49:07,540 --> 02:49:12,760
program look at look like. But we supported bulge items, inclusion in the clock much

1862
02:49:12,760 --> 02:49:22,340
error because it used to be there. Okay, so the our policy, our policy concept allows

1863
02:49:22,340 --> 02:49:30,580
force on the use of cancer fish. But it really draws a line about moving fish from hatcheries,

1864
02:49:31,540 --> 02:49:38,040
or distant watersheds into other watersheds for release to primarily for the purpose of creating

1865
02:49:38,040 --> 02:49:52,080
a sport fishery or a commercial fishery. It was a monitoring of that release and criteria has to

1866
02:49:52,080 --> 02:50:00,000
those two kinds of fish so that you can evaluate whether or not they're actually providing you with a benefit and the

1867
02:50:00,000 --> 02:50:06,620
Mr. Providing that benefit isn't the expense of the Navy population. Thank you very much. If you have any questions,

1868
02:50:06,800 --> 02:50:13,940
be glad to answer. Thank you very much. Welcome, Ed. I'd share with members of the committee.

1869
02:50:14,040 --> 02:50:17,860
My name is Ed Bulls. I'm the Fish Division Administrator for Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife.

1870
02:50:18,400 --> 02:50:26,140
We appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today about the stock transfer issue in our policies for both conservation and

1871
02:50:26,140 --> 02:50:29,520
related to moving fish around between basins.

1872
02:50:29,920 --> 02:50:37,580
Before I do, I thought I just follow up on our wildlife and ministers pickle on the fish

1873
02:50:37,580 --> 02:50:39,260
in the Comerance Valley.

1874
02:50:40,800 --> 02:50:46,100
I had not seen that before, but if I were to guess, I would think, I think I love this.

1875
02:50:46,400 --> 02:50:51,780
It's actually not a pickle fish, if I heard that right, it's a monkey face prickle back.

1876
02:50:52,620 --> 02:50:57,660
And those are kind of a, you know, you'll have to Google that one.

1877
02:50:57,960 --> 02:51:02,120
It's more of an eel looking fish that resides in the rocks and seaweed.

1878
02:51:02,340 --> 02:51:05,460
And in fact, they can actually live out of water for a little bit.

1879
02:51:05,500 --> 02:51:12,180
And the karma probably got it when it was stranded due to a title shift in the rocks there until much base.

1880
02:51:12,660 --> 02:51:15,660
So there's a little bit of a, all right, go for you.

1881
02:51:19,280 --> 02:51:30,690
So once again I want to just stress on the outset that ODI of W takes and I did provide some

1882
02:51:31,140 --> 02:51:36,600
written testimony for you and hopefully I can be brief and give you your time a lot

1883
02:51:36,600 --> 02:51:42,410
months but you've got that with some details but we take very seriously the importance of

1884
02:51:42,410 --> 02:51:51,130
Managing directly, the risk that are associated with moving fish between vases, whether hatchy fish or

1885
02:51:51,130 --> 02:51:58,010
hatchy produce fish, those risks are real and they're very important for us to be aware of into

1886
02:51:58,010 --> 02:52:05,350
manage and those can be genetic issues that can be health issues related to disease, pathogens, parasites,

1887
02:52:05,950 --> 02:52:11,710
they can be ecological issues, competition, predation, all of those, both on native fish and wildlife

1888
02:52:11,710 --> 02:52:19,670
for the watersheds, so that does not, I don't want to imply that there's any management

1889
02:52:19,670 --> 02:52:21,010
vacuum there whatsoever.

1890
02:52:22,670 --> 02:52:32,030
I want to also make a clear that we have existing policies in place that allow us to manage

1891
02:52:32,030 --> 02:52:38,030
for these risks appropriately, and those policies are the native fish conservation policy,

1892
02:52:38,030 --> 02:52:43,730
The Fish Health Management Policy and the Entry Fish Management Policy.

1893
02:52:44,450 --> 02:52:53,470
And all of those basically mandate the requirement of protecting our naturally produced native fish.

1894
02:52:53,890 --> 02:53:04,050
And within that protective atmosphere providing opportunities for fishing, wherever appropriate within that, standing on that platform of conservation.

1895
02:53:04,050 --> 02:53:13,250
And we don't do that very effectively with one size fits all sort of policy constraints.

1896
02:53:13,690 --> 02:53:19,270
And so the native fish conservation policy is very clear on this that you achieve that

1897
02:53:19,270 --> 02:53:29,030
through a portfolio of actions that are custom tailored to the specific situation, whether

1898
02:53:29,030 --> 02:53:35,130
be a particular watershed or particular species, and that's what allows us to meet the conservation

1899
02:53:35,130 --> 02:53:42,990
needs on a case-by-case basis and allows us to meet the fishing opportunity mandates on a

1900
02:53:42,990 --> 02:53:47,910
case-by-case basis. And that is the approach that we have taken in dealing with stock transfers,

1901
02:53:48,330 --> 02:53:54,110
no different than any of the other approaches that we take to managing the risks that are out

1902
02:53:54,110 --> 02:54:07,430
relative to our conservation needs and I want to make it sometimes providing a fishery with

1903
02:54:07,430 --> 02:54:13,350
an out of basin stock is actually less of a conservation risk than using the invasive stock.

1904
02:54:14,130 --> 02:54:20,070
And this is typically not the norm and in fact our default is to always rely on locally adapted

1905
02:54:20,070 --> 02:54:26,750
stocks where we can, but for example, if you're going to provide a fishing opportunity

1906
02:54:26,750 --> 02:54:32,250
through a hatchery program and the local population in case being on the Canacom River

1907
02:54:32,250 --> 02:54:39,250
Falls, you know, because it's not robust enough, and probably never was to support taking

1908
02:54:39,250 --> 02:54:46,470
adults out to form a brood stock for that hatchery program, using an outside stock to provide

1909
02:54:46,470 --> 02:54:53,190
that fishery opportunity is appropriate and less conservation risk than mining the wild

1910
02:54:53,190 --> 02:54:59,050
fish to get your hatchet roots stock. Other examples would be where you have a situation

1911
02:54:59,050 --> 02:54:59,970
and we're a locally-

1912
02:55:00,000 --> 02:55:23,140
Derive, brewed stock, moved into the hatcheries, may be more likely to interact on the spawning grounds with the remaining wild fish and so you can isolate the hatchery program by having a stock that is less similar to the local population and you can actually reduce the interaction effects of that and then in some cases we manage to that.

1913
02:55:23,140 --> 02:55:31,160
And so this is not, this really does not lend itself to one size fits all approach to managing the conservation risks.

1914
02:55:31,900 --> 02:55:36,600
And I want to just give you a few, in my written testimony, I think I gave you 10 examples.

1915
02:55:37,480 --> 02:55:52,000
If you weren't to decide to go with a uniform prohibition on stock transfers, I gave you 10 examples of very important fisheries that could potentially be lost by something like that.

1916
02:55:52,000 --> 02:55:56,580
if we weren't able to look at this on a case-by-case basis, which is the way we do it now.

1917
02:55:57,520 --> 02:56:03,840
And I'll just mention some of the first five on there, just to make the point, we'd lose,

1918
02:56:03,920 --> 02:56:07,000
potentially, the hatchery, fall, Chinook, Fishery, and the Necanicum River.

1919
02:56:07,020 --> 02:56:13,860
Very important to the North Coast folks, losses, several hatchery, winners, dealet fisheries on

1920
02:56:13,860 --> 02:56:14,780
the North Coast.

1921
02:56:15,100 --> 02:56:20,520
And these some of these fisheries are very popular between Thanksgiving and December, before

1922
02:56:20,520 --> 02:56:25,500
We've shifted to a local brewed stock while brewed stock when there's steel at fisheries.

1923
02:56:25,580 --> 02:56:33,840
Many of our young Nostaca Wilson, some of those rivers, by we've lost through those that

1924
02:56:33,840 --> 02:56:36,680
important Thanksgiving to Christmas time period.

1925
02:56:37,880 --> 02:56:44,740
And many of our stakeholders really want that traditional fishery that comes from, let's say,

1926
02:56:44,740 --> 02:56:52,160
stock at a hatchery program. And so managing that to provide that opportunity is very important

1927
02:56:52,160 --> 02:56:57,340
to stakeholders. We, on the other hand, need to manage those fisheries to ensure that the

1928
02:56:57,340 --> 02:57:03,220
conservation risks to the wild populations are manageable, are contained. You're never going to

1929
02:57:03,220 --> 02:57:08,340
reduce that to zero, but you can attain it to a manageable level, and that's what we do through

1930
02:57:08,340 --> 02:57:14,340
our programs. And those were approved through the Coastal Multi Species Plan that the Commission

1931
02:57:14,340 --> 02:57:16,080
and just adopted in June.

1932
02:57:16,780 --> 02:57:19,180
Laws of several hatchery summer steeled fisheries

1933
02:57:19,180 --> 02:57:20,480
on the North Coast.

1934
02:57:21,060 --> 02:57:24,440
Laws, as Bill mentioned, of several new coastal

1935
02:57:24,440 --> 02:57:27,020
spring-shinook programs that were part

1936
02:57:27,020 --> 02:57:29,760
of the coastal multi-species plan to generate

1937
02:57:29,760 --> 02:57:34,240
economics in the springtime for the likes of the equine and bay

1938
02:57:34,240 --> 02:57:37,840
and coups bay, as well as ramping up some of the releases

1939
02:57:37,840 --> 02:57:39,940
in the springtime for the telemic bay.

1940
02:57:40,060 --> 02:57:42,140
Very important economically to those areas.

1941
02:57:42,140 --> 02:57:50,040
we believe we can manage those hatchery programs in a way that contains the risks to make sure

1942
02:57:50,040 --> 02:57:55,100
our conservation needs are met but we don't need to exclude those from occurring as important

1943
02:57:55,100 --> 02:58:02,960
economic use to those communities. And then the other one that's very important nearly all

1944
02:58:02,960 --> 02:58:09,600
of the state's hatchery programs are non-indigenous fish, okay?

1945
02:58:10,100 --> 02:58:18,040
There are hatchery stocks, Heinz 57, a uniform prohibition of stock transfers would functionally

1946
02:58:18,040 --> 02:58:23,660
remove the state's hatchery trout fisheries.

1947
02:58:28,120 --> 02:58:35,540
The reason Bill mentioned that we removed the existing rule that dealt with stock transfers

1948
02:58:35,540 --> 02:58:41,200
for coastal shunook. That was limited to just shunook and it was limited to just coastal rivers.

1949
02:58:42,360 --> 02:58:50,700
And the reason that was scrub so to speak was because the case by case approach was embodied

1950
02:58:50,700 --> 02:58:55,820
in the new policies, the native fish policy, the hatchery fish management policy, and the

1951
02:58:55,820 --> 02:59:01,960
fish health policy. And so it didn't create a vacuum whatsoever. It just allows us the flexibility

1952
02:59:01,960 --> 02:59:07,520
to deal with this on a case-by-case basis to meet our conservation needs, and that's why

1953
02:59:07,520 --> 02:59:08,440
that was scrubbed.

1954
02:59:08,620 --> 02:59:18,560
It was supported that removal of that in the commission project as well, and so I just

1955
02:59:18,560 --> 02:59:25,020
want to leave you perhaps with the message that the risks associated with moving fish around

1956
02:59:25,020 --> 02:59:25,700
are real.

1957
02:59:26,520 --> 02:59:31,760
We don't take those lightly, but those are embodied in existing policies that are the

1958
02:59:31,760 --> 02:59:36,980
policies of the state, we are able to contain those risks effectively through management.

1959
02:59:37,680 --> 02:59:44,040
And by doing that, with the flexibility afforded to us, we can optimize both conservation

1960
02:59:44,040 --> 02:59:49,060
and fishing opportunities as opposed to a one-size-fits-all uniform prohibition.

1961
02:59:49,600 --> 02:59:50,120
Thank you.

1962
02:59:50,240 --> 02:59:52,580
Thank you very, very much.

1963
02:59:52,820 --> 02:59:58,680
I appreciate your presentations, I appreciate your helping me to get a set of here on

1964
02:59:58,680 --> 02:59:59,440
time.

1965
02:59:59,440 --> 02:59:59,960
Committee members.

1966
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:06,880
We're two minutes over. I want to take a couple of limited questions, and then we're going to need to wrap up, Representative Krieger.

1967
03:00:07,560 --> 03:00:24,460
Mr. Chair and Bill, and we really, I think, in 13 coming in, I got to understand the value of our native wild fish and that a lot of our efforts should be to understand it for the value of a project, but at the same time.

1968
03:00:25,800 --> 03:00:32,080
We understand that strain takes place anywhere from 3 to 8 percent in wild fish, certain

1969
03:00:32,080 --> 03:00:34,180
years we don't understand why they stray.

1970
03:00:35,120 --> 03:00:43,160
So why is a wild fish that strayes into a stream not as great as a same threat as a wild

1971
03:00:43,160 --> 03:00:46,200
wild fish from a hatchery that strayes into a stream?

1972
03:00:47,580 --> 03:00:53,980
Well, under the scientists have called that a meta-population, it's usually adjacent streams,

1973
03:00:53,980 --> 03:01:00,620
and it's part of their life history, diversity, so the straight rate may be low, but the

1974
03:01:00,620 --> 03:01:09,320
fact is that that allows a group of fish to constantly refresh, I guess, genetically. The

1975
03:01:09,320 --> 03:01:13,920
water sheds, each of the water sheds, because of the strays among the Jason water sheds,

1976
03:01:14,480 --> 03:01:19,000
the fish are most different when they're further away. And there's some science that shows

1977
03:01:19,000 --> 03:01:26,300
to where that distance might be, and related to genetic evaluation of those stocks in

1978
03:01:26,300 --> 03:01:27,140
the most places.

1979
03:01:28,440 --> 03:01:34,420
But the close by ones are part of the metapopulation, that's the way they've evolved, that's

1980
03:01:34,420 --> 03:01:35,100
an important aspect.

1981
03:01:35,200 --> 03:01:41,240
I think Mr. Chair, that's the point I'm getting at this is a natural ongoing thing of non-selective

1982
03:01:41,240 --> 03:01:45,760
of a wild face, not to select their home stream, it's part of the process like they come

1983
03:01:45,760 --> 03:01:48,700
back and two, three, four, five, six year old fish.

1984
03:01:49,220 --> 03:01:50,280
It's a safety net.

1985
03:01:50,980 --> 03:01:55,060
So how we do those stock transfers, as you said,

1986
03:01:56,460 --> 03:01:59,520
we need to keep it at one of us necessary,

1987
03:01:59,840 --> 03:02:03,360
as close to the other stream as possible.

1988
03:02:03,520 --> 03:02:06,020
We have the same thing taking place from the climate

1989
03:02:06,580 --> 03:02:09,660
to the rogue, from the check code of the wind check,

1990
03:02:09,820 --> 03:02:12,720
from the wind check to the Smith River, wild fish

1991
03:02:12,720 --> 03:02:14,480
showing up at each of those streams.

1992
03:02:14,480 --> 03:02:22,840
Acca, they didn't go home to their home stream, but they're wild, so it is a natural process that has value, I think, for the fish themselves.

1993
03:02:23,520 --> 03:02:38,700
Just the one common I have about that is when your hatchery fish are selected for, they essentially called it domesticated fisher within a hatchery program, their fitness, their reproductive success is pretty low in the natural environment.

1994
03:02:38,700 --> 03:02:44,600
and when they interbreed or have an ecological impact upon a wild fish in that particular stream

1995
03:02:44,600 --> 03:02:49,340
then you cause yourself problems in terms of lowering the production like they found on the

1996
03:02:49,340 --> 03:02:53,720
clacomus of the fish that were native to that watershed.

1997
03:02:55,960 --> 03:03:07,340
Ed, I am curious when the departments making the decision of where to introduce fish and in order

1998
03:03:07,340 --> 03:03:15,160
stock them. Is there an opportunity for folks like Bill and the native fish society and maybe

1999
03:03:15,160 --> 03:03:21,960
members of the public who have a scientific interest to be able to have some input into the decision

2000
03:03:23,260 --> 03:03:27,560
of what fish stocks are being introduced into any given tributary?

2001
03:03:29,140 --> 03:03:34,820
Yeah, sure. Let me just give you an example using the coastal plan that was just recently adopted

2002
03:03:34,820 --> 03:03:41,320
by the Commission. We call that the long name is the coastal multi-species conservation

2003
03:03:41,320 --> 03:03:47,320
and management plan. It was six species, long the coast. You all heard a lot about the

2004
03:03:47,320 --> 03:03:53,700
public process. There was a lot of sausage making going on throughout a couple year process

2005
03:03:53,700 --> 03:04:00,620
and many important stakeholder groups involved in that. We had four stakeholder teams. We

2006
03:04:00,620 --> 03:04:05,080
had a separate habitat, scientific forum.

2007
03:04:06,020 --> 03:04:14,120
We had reviews by the independent multidisciplinary science team, and we had so opportunity for

2008
03:04:14,120 --> 03:04:20,580
public comment throughout the process, opportunity for a two-step commission, two different

2009
03:04:20,580 --> 03:04:27,920
commission meetings before it was approved, all culminating in unanimous support by the commission

2010
03:04:27,920 --> 03:04:32,840
and strong stakeholder support in the balanced portfolio.

2011
03:04:33,000 --> 03:04:37,900
Nobody was happy with everything, but it was supported overall

2012
03:04:37,900 --> 03:04:42,240
because of that balance of conservation and use that we provided.

2013
03:04:43,540 --> 03:04:47,880
And I want to make it clear that that, for example,

2014
03:04:47,880 --> 03:04:58,660
that plan, we cannot go in now, and unilaterally, as an agency, add fish to a separate

2015
03:04:58,660 --> 03:05:00,000
water shed and dump it.

2016
03:05:00,000 --> 03:05:28,220
Sir, we can't do that. It has to. Any changes to those plans now have to have commission review. If we're adding new hatchery programs or moving fish around, so the plan adopted the details, which included several places where there will be stock transfers and those were fully vetted through the process and many, many places where stock transfers are prohibited.

2017
03:05:29,340 --> 03:05:38,900
And that's why on one size fits all doesn't work because it's a cross that spectrum that you get to your conservation need by balancing that.

2018
03:05:39,100 --> 03:05:40,660
And that's locked in for a decade.

2019
03:05:42,540 --> 03:05:44,860
Okay, you'll anticipate my next question.

2020
03:05:45,200 --> 03:05:45,480
Very good.

2021
03:05:45,940 --> 03:05:47,980
Well, you addressed it to him.

2022
03:05:48,700 --> 03:05:49,880
I was part of this.

2023
03:05:50,040 --> 03:05:52,320
I like to also say something.

2024
03:05:52,320 --> 03:05:58,640
has that I've been working with the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife since the 70s.

2025
03:05:58,640 --> 03:06:06,140
And I have to say that if administratively, I could address the problems administratively with the biologist, with the management,

2026
03:06:06,960 --> 03:06:12,120
and actually gain some ground in terms of conservation management for fish, which is my primary concern.

2027
03:06:13,180 --> 03:06:16,300
Right now, frankly, the best way to gain ground is to go to court.

2028
03:06:17,620 --> 03:06:20,520
I think that's a waste of time and money.

2029
03:06:20,520 --> 03:06:31,540
And what we're not finding in the term and with with inficional life department is that we're getting the cooperation that he's the spouses.

2030
03:06:32,420 --> 03:06:33,820
It's not there.

2031
03:06:34,140 --> 03:06:44,620
And in fact our organization and members of our organization working in places like the John Day and South Coast and so on has actually been blackbulb by the agency.

2032
03:06:46,060 --> 03:06:51,600
And that's one of the reasons that they blackball this, because we took them to court, because

2033
03:06:51,600 --> 03:06:54,280
and we won according to the judge.

2034
03:06:56,540 --> 03:07:03,120
But that's important, I guess, but the thing is, I'd rather see the agency do the changing,

2035
03:07:03,560 --> 03:07:06,240
not have a federal judge telling the do the changing.

2036
03:07:07,080 --> 03:07:13,940
But if we're stuck in this role right now, that only you can't solve the problems administratively,

2037
03:07:13,940 --> 03:07:19,500
have to go to the court, then we're headed in the wrong direction.

2038
03:07:21,200 --> 03:07:29,360
I, for one, would agree with you that resorting to litigation is headed in the wrong direction.

2039
03:07:31,920 --> 03:07:42,200
I'm not able to resolve this difference at this point, but I can't speak for everyone on this committee,

2040
03:07:42,200 --> 03:07:50,160
But I sense a general feeling that there is a desire for us to keep native stocks as pure

2041
03:07:50,160 --> 03:08:00,340
as we possibly can to minimize inner watershed transfers of stocks, that all of this

2042
03:08:00,340 --> 03:08:07,280
is very sound science, and I think makes perfectly good sense to most of us on this committee.

2043
03:08:07,280 --> 03:08:33,640
But I'm hearing also from the Department that there are practical considerations on a daily basis and to the extent that over the next couple of months at least prior to December if there remains a problems that need to be addressed through legislation.

2044
03:08:33,640 --> 03:08:42,680
And helping us to better understand how we get past the practical, every day considerations

2045
03:08:42,680 --> 03:08:48,820
that Mr. Bulls laid out for us, you need to help us understand that, because we're

2046
03:08:48,820 --> 03:08:54,680
going to be looking quite frankly at the possibility of committee legislation between

2047
03:08:54,680 --> 03:08:56,380
Alan Net.

2048
03:08:56,380 --> 03:09:05,360
Could I say one more thing, maybe you ask a very important question, and Mr. Bols believes

2049
03:09:05,360 --> 03:09:08,280
on an interesting problem.

2050
03:09:09,460 --> 03:09:16,300
We were concerned about balancing, you know, utilization and protection, conservation, utilization.

2051
03:09:16,620 --> 03:09:22,360
So we asked the Oregon Department of Justice for a clarification.

2052
03:09:22,360 --> 03:09:27,960
Mr. Bowles asked for a clarification in 2003 with regard to the Navy Fish Conservation

2053
03:09:27,960 --> 03:09:33,420
Policy before we were working on that and I was on the Advisory Committee for that.

2054
03:09:33,800 --> 03:09:39,700
And when both cases there were consistent but it's really interesting to note is that the

2055
03:09:39,700 --> 03:09:50,680
Prevent to Sirius depletion of any indigenous species, quote is the Commission and the

2056
03:09:50,680 --> 03:09:59,500
completion, which thereby enables the commission and the department to provide optimum

2057
03:09:59,500 --> 03:09:59,960
recreation.

2058
03:10:00,000 --> 03:10:29,480
And aesthetic benefits. It's not a balancing. You don't have fishy. You don't practice conservation. If you don't protect the species, you run out of species, you have extinction. The fish runs in the state of Oregon, Washington, California, are going extinct. We're losing capacity. And it's not just habitat. This driving them there, it's also fish management. And I would like to say that the Department of Justice, maybe it's worth a while asking them,

2059
03:10:29,480 --> 03:10:35,940
to give the committee some direction on really what the rule says.

2060
03:10:35,940 --> 03:10:36,940
This is state law.

2061
03:10:37,020 --> 03:10:41,260
This is O-R-S for a 9, 6, 0, 1, 2.

2062
03:10:42,320 --> 03:10:47,280
I understand the implication of what you've said.

2063
03:10:47,500 --> 03:10:50,980
I'm not going to be looking for another branch of the government to direct our committee,

2064
03:10:51,640 --> 03:10:54,520
but I understand the implication of your suggestion.

2065
03:10:55,340 --> 03:10:58,020
and their input is certainly welcome.

2066
03:10:58,780 --> 03:11:00,360
Mr. Bulles, if you have something else,

2067
03:11:00,520 --> 03:11:02,460
I am absolutely going to have to adjourn this

2068
03:11:02,460 --> 03:11:03,480
because you hear momentarily.

2069
03:11:04,400 --> 03:11:07,480
Joe, I'll just leave you with the fact

2070
03:11:07,480 --> 03:11:13,080
that we in no way compromise our conservation mandate

2071
03:11:13,080 --> 03:11:15,560
and its primacy within our management.

2072
03:11:16,440 --> 03:11:18,420
But it's on that platform of conservation

2073
03:11:18,420 --> 03:11:21,780
that we provide opportunities for societal use.

2074
03:11:21,780 --> 03:11:27,060
And conservation does not mean managing to zero risks.

2075
03:11:27,260 --> 03:11:30,340
It means managing, closed risk accordingly.

2076
03:11:31,500 --> 03:11:35,100
And that's what all of our criteria and standards do.

2077
03:11:35,700 --> 03:11:38,420
And it's always within that context that we provide

2078
03:11:38,420 --> 03:11:41,240
Fishing opportunities, some of which may include

2079
03:11:41,240 --> 03:11:44,320
in a very limited basis, some stock transfers,

2080
03:11:46,000 --> 03:11:47,080
afforded that flexibility.

2081
03:11:47,820 --> 03:11:49,020
Thank you very much.

2082
03:11:49,020 --> 03:11:52,640
And with that gentlemen, you're excused, I appreciate your input.

2083
03:11:53,340 --> 03:11:56,000
Committee members, just a couple of things here.

2084
03:11:56,240 --> 03:11:59,160
First, thank you for hanging in here for very long day.

2085
03:11:59,940 --> 03:12:06,020
Number two, we will be looking for volunteers to serve on the fact-finding group

2086
03:12:06,840 --> 03:12:11,120
that we discussed earlier today and number three.

2087
03:12:11,640 --> 03:12:18,340
If any of you have concepts for committee bills for December, please let me know as soon as possible.

2088
03:12:18,340 --> 03:12:22,360
With that we stand adjourned and thank you committee members very very very