1 00:00:12,112 --> 00:00:26,894 And. Then you can see where all the structures or lie bottom or so on. Okay. The edge. On 260. 2 00:00:26,894 --> 00:00:42,175 Incredible. 75. May be part of it. I think that may be part of it. Goes east and west through. 3 00:00:42,175 --> 00:01:24,251 It's about 30 miles off. And all these are different species of fish live on all these 4 00:01:24,251 --> 00:01:29,556 bodies. And so the last time we went up, I've only been one time up there, me and my, my 5 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:36,163 good guy buddy Mark, which is another good friend of mine, Mark. Went out there and he 6 00:01:36,163 --> 00:01:41,368 didn't know we were having a problem with the boat at the time. So we dive off the boat 7 00:01:41,368 --> 00:01:47,975 and go through these big moon jellies like Frogger going in and out of these booths. And it 8 00:01:47,975 --> 00:01:56,950 was just so, so crystal clear. We could just see this black line as far as you go. Deeper 9 00:01:56,950 --> 00:02:08,795 and deeper down, you get bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. And I think I had 20. For about 200ft. 10 00:02:08,795 --> 00:02:51,004 And but it was so clear I ended up going shooting. Oh I don't. Used. Okay. That's deep. Well 11 00:02:51,004 --> 00:02:57,377 it is yes. That's past recreational. Just past. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of 12 00:02:57,377 --> 00:03:03,150 redevelopment. Agency regular meeting February 5th, 2026 9:00 Am. Please turn your cell phone 13 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:07,421 to vibrate. Silence or the Offsetting Board of County Commission allows the person to 14 00:03:07,421 --> 00:03:11,091 speak regarding item on the agenda. Speaker is limited to two minutes unless otherwise 15 00:03:11,091 --> 00:03:16,463 determined by the chairman. Is there a proof of publication? Yes. This meeting was 16 00:03:16,463 --> 00:03:24,738 advertised in the Pensacola News Journal, January 29th, 2026. Thank you. Are any 17 00:03:24,738 --> 00:03:31,945 speakers for public forum? Not to my knowledge. Thanks. Technical, technical and public 18 00:03:31,945 --> 00:03:38,018 service consent agenda. Yes. Recommendation concerning Community Redevelopment Agency 19 00:03:38,018 --> 00:03:46,793 meeting Minutes December 11th, 2025. Chair entertain a motion. Motion second please vote 20 00:03:46,793 --> 00:03:52,132 passage unanimous. Thank you. Budget and finance recommendation concerning the 21 00:03:52,132 --> 00:03:57,904 cancellation of Residential Rehab grant program liens. Recommendation concerning 22 00:03:57,904 --> 00:04:05,445 Residential Rehab grant program funding and lean agreements and recommendation concerning 23 00:04:05,445 --> 00:04:11,618 Residential Roof program funding and lean agreements. Chair entertain a motion if 24 00:04:11,618 --> 00:04:20,627 there's no discussion, all for second motion. Second, please vote that passes unanimous. 25 00:04:20,627 --> 00:04:27,768 Thank you, Mr. Director. So for discussion item, we are asking that the board reinstate the 26 00:04:27,768 --> 00:04:33,173 sewer connection part of the Residential Rehab Improvement grant for Non-homestead home 27 00:04:33,173 --> 00:04:39,746 owners with stipulations that have been revised in the agreement. For the grant, the 28 00:04:39,746 --> 00:04:44,351 terms added, were additional terms, I'm sorry. Additional terms and agreements were. 29 00:04:44,351 --> 00:04:49,723 Property owners must provide the current lease agreements of properties occupied or draft 30 00:04:49,723 --> 00:04:54,060 lease agreement showing current rental rate at the time of application if the property is 31 00:04:54,060 --> 00:05:02,302 occupied. Unoccupied property owners must increase but not increase rent by more than 5% 32 00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:08,108 during the three year lien term, and property owners must submit lease agreements annually to 33 00:05:08,108 --> 00:05:14,281 CRA staff for the duration of the lien. Also, if the property is sold, transferred or 34 00:05:14,281 --> 00:05:21,721 otherwise conveyed during the three year preferred above lien without the express permission 35 00:05:21,721 --> 00:05:26,560 of the CRA, or if the funding agreement executed concurrently with this lien agreement is 36 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:32,265 terminated prior to the expiration of three year period, the homeowner agrees that their 37 00:05:32,265 --> 00:05:38,705 heirs or assigns shall the total amount of the grant disbursed by the CRA up to and 38 00:05:38,705 --> 00:05:45,979 including the amount recited within the agreement, and also repayment shall not be required 39 00:05:45,979 --> 00:05:51,284 if the property is sold during the three year period to a homeowner whose household 40 00:05:51,284 --> 00:05:59,392 income is at or below the 80% Ami as verified and approved in writing by the CRA. So if they 41 00:05:59,392 --> 00:06:03,463 sell it to another developer, they have to pay the amount back. Yes. Correct? Yes. They 42 00:06:03,463 --> 00:06:08,835 said within that that three year lien period. So we're trying to make it. If they do 43 00:06:08,835 --> 00:06:15,742 sell it, sell it to someone that's for, you know, that's affordable. And we it's a 50% 44 00:06:15,742 --> 00:06:29,122 match. Yes. So they'll put 50% in. Yeah. Up to 10,000 okay. Any more questions. Well excuse 45 00:06:29,122 --> 00:06:33,093 me Commissioner, may I know this is something that the Pensacola party supports. I 46 00:06:33,093 --> 00:06:38,198 support wholeheartedly. When you look at the environmental impact of bio, bio and many of 47 00:06:38,198 --> 00:06:42,202 our waterways, this is something that will help with that. So I'm in full support of 48 00:06:42,202 --> 00:06:46,539 this program. And thank you, Commissioner caller. I think that probably in the joint town 49 00:06:46,539 --> 00:06:54,981 hall meeting, probably 70% of the people there were concerned about. Septic to sewer 50 00:06:54,981 --> 00:07:01,922 conversion. So this helps our commercial corridor, which in turn should well, it helps our 51 00:07:01,922 --> 00:07:07,093 residential, but it should be able to look at helping our commercial as well. And with 52 00:07:07,093 --> 00:07:11,264 that question, so is this just residential. What happens to commercial commercial 53 00:07:11,264 --> 00:07:17,637 commercial also with the same. Yeah. The commercial. I think we have to go back and look at 54 00:07:17,637 --> 00:07:23,009 that with the commercial grant, probably to add that caveat to it with the because you can get 55 00:07:23,009 --> 00:07:26,379 more with the commercial grant than you would with the residential rehab. So we might 56 00:07:26,379 --> 00:07:32,752 look at that. So we probably should make that equal in my opinion. So what what what 57 00:07:32,752 --> 00:07:40,026 currently exists with commercial for the 25,000 matching or just. Yeah, 25,000 58 00:07:40,026 --> 00:07:44,397 matching. So I will say aqua charge is different for commercial properties. And they 59 00:07:44,397 --> 00:07:48,768 do charge those commercial properties impact fees. And those can be significant. 60 00:07:48,768 --> 00:07:52,739 Absolutely. So we could look into changing that for the commercial. And so so when it 61 00:07:52,739 --> 00:07:56,977 does that the 25 it would help not only with the sewer but the would help with the grease 62 00:07:56,977 --> 00:08:02,048 traps and all those other things. Yeah. So I agree with Commissioner Hoffberger that, 63 00:08:02,048 --> 00:08:06,653 you know, it is a lot more for commercial to convert, so I would support keeping those 64 00:08:06,653 --> 00:08:11,257 numbers high. Okay. All right. So I think I think you have support I just bring it back 65 00:08:11,257 --> 00:08:17,130 and get it ratified okay. All right. Any questions. Thank you for the discussion. With that 66 00:08:17,130 --> 00:08:24,337 we stand adjourned, Madam Chair. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Welcome to the committee 67 00:08:24,337 --> 00:08:28,975 meeting of the whole. Please turn your cell phones to silent or the off setting. This 68 00:08:28,975 --> 00:08:32,746 meeting is officially called to order. Commissioner May, would you lead us in the Pledge of 69 00:08:32,746 --> 00:08:41,221 Allegiance? Please join me in the pledge. I pledge allegiance the United States of America 70 00:08:41,221 --> 00:08:48,795 and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and 71 00:08:48,795 --> 00:08:56,069 justice for all. Has this meeting been properly advertised? Madam chair? This 72 00:08:56,069 --> 00:09:00,340 meeting was advertised in the Pensacola News Journal and the board's weekly meeting schedule 73 00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:06,212 on January 29th, 2026. Wonderful. Thank you. And just to set the stage, this is a 74 00:09:06,212 --> 00:09:10,717 meeting where we will hear from staff and we'll be able to discuss among ourselves. This 75 00:09:10,717 --> 00:09:16,289 is not for public input or public comment that is reserved for the board meeting on 229, 76 00:09:16,289 --> 00:09:21,227 where we will actually be discussing it and deciding how to move forward. Public forum 77 00:09:21,227 --> 00:09:27,167 for that board meeting, which is on the on the 19th of February, will begin at 9 a.m. 78 00:09:27,167 --> 00:09:34,474 and the meeting itself will begin at 930. So with that, we will move into presentations. 79 00:09:34,474 --> 00:09:42,849 Okay. Good morning I'm Christy Hankins. I'm with the county attorney's office. Tim Day is 80 00:09:42,849 --> 00:09:49,889 also present. We were asked to look into the present status of customary use. And so we put 81 00:09:49,889 --> 00:09:54,060 together a small presentation just to let the board know where it stands. Since there 82 00:09:54,060 --> 00:10:03,636 was a repeal of an act that had been in place up until 2025. So in the previous statutory 83 00:10:03,636 --> 00:10:12,612 requirements from July 1st, 2018 to June 23rd, 2025. We're on 163 .035. I'm sorry. Let me 84 00:10:12,612 --> 00:10:16,749 know if you can't, I apologize. I'm not close enough on the microphone. I'm used to being 85 00:10:16,749 --> 00:10:24,190 loud enough. So and you can see up here this is taken from the from the when this particular 86 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:30,230 statute was repealed in 2025. And this is basically the layout of how it, how it worked 87 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:36,669 was that the public, the public hearing had to be held to adopt the to adopt the ordinance, but 88 00:10:36,669 --> 00:10:42,308 the notice of intent had to go out to each property owner. It was parcel by parcel, and then 89 00:10:42,308 --> 00:10:48,481 it all had then the after all that happened, the hearing was held. Then a it had to be filed 90 00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:53,453 in the court and a complaint had to be filed by the county, and then the county had to or 91 00:10:53,453 --> 00:11:00,160 the municipality, and then they had to prove all of the elements. And the it was not it 92 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:06,366 was it was a much more property owner friendly, and it allowed for the property owners to join 93 00:11:06,366 --> 00:11:14,240 as intervenors. But in 2025, that was that was reversed. And we went back to the the 94 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,512 customary use law that existed under common law prior to that. And this is the staff analysis 95 00:11:19,512 --> 00:11:28,321 saying what how it would change back. So you can do a customary use by conducting proper 96 00:11:28,321 --> 00:11:33,126 hearings before the board and then passing an ordinance, and then the property owners would 97 00:11:33,126 --> 00:11:39,766 have to file the lawsuit, and it'd be a case by case basis, but not on a parcel by parcel 98 00:11:39,766 --> 00:11:44,137 basis, which was much more challenging. Walton, County down the street, they went 99 00:11:44,137 --> 00:11:51,444 under the previous 163 035 and have faced some faced significant hurdles. They lost 100 00:11:51,444 --> 00:11:58,284 an easement that they had previously possessed. They lost. There's significant. They would 101 00:11:58,284 --> 00:12:05,358 be a cautionary tale on this, but they went under the 163035. Currently there's a case that's 102 00:12:05,358 --> 00:12:11,064 pending, that's pending, that's up on appeal on the 11th circuit for Redington Beach. 103 00:12:11,064 --> 00:12:18,638 They were also under 16163.035, but they passed theirs before 163035 went to effect. And so 104 00:12:18,638 --> 00:12:25,411 they had the affirmative defense of customary use. And currently that is waiting to 105 00:12:25,411 --> 00:12:31,284 see that that hearing will be in February, will be February 24th in front of the 11th 106 00:12:31,284 --> 00:12:37,857 circuit. And that will probably tell, I would imagine that will give us the best guidance as to 107 00:12:37,857 --> 00:12:41,027 where the courts are going with customary use and the requirements, and whether or 108 00:12:41,027 --> 00:12:46,266 not it's going to be well accepted. So here are the elements of customary use 109 00:12:46,266 --> 00:12:52,538 ancient, reasonable, without interruption and free from dispute. And if you have an 110 00:12:52,538 --> 00:12:56,876 owner that has the property, then they would have whatever their use it would be, have to 111 00:12:56,876 --> 00:13:01,881 be consistent with the customary use that's currently on. That's been determined. And 112 00:13:01,881 --> 00:13:06,586 that is a determination. It comes from the case City of Daytona Beach versus Rama. Tono 113 00:13:06,586 --> 00:13:12,725 Rama was not a customary use case. It was a case where a property owner who also owned a 114 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:19,465 pier had decided to put up an observation tower, and a competing company had decided 115 00:13:19,465 --> 00:13:25,972 to sue the city of Daytona, as well as as well as the property owner. Because the City of 116 00:13:25,972 --> 00:13:30,443 Daytona issued the permit and he decided to sue on the grounds of prescriptive 117 00:13:30,443 --> 00:13:35,181 easement, not on the grounds of customary use. The Florida went all the way to the Florida 118 00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:39,052 Supreme Court, and the Florida Supreme Court reversed the lower courts, who had found 119 00:13:39,052 --> 00:13:43,690 that the tower had to be torn down. They reversed those lower courts for a finding that it 120 00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:48,361 did not have to be torn down. That prescriptive easement did not apply, but there was 121 00:13:48,361 --> 00:13:53,333 discussion then at this time with within that opinion about customary use, which is what 122 00:13:53,333 --> 00:14:00,606 you see before you. And that discussion has become the law of the land ever since. These 123 00:14:00,606 --> 00:14:04,510 are the things that it does. These are the restrictions on customary use. It doesn't 124 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:11,284 create interest. It can't be revoked by the landowner. It can be regulated and it should 125 00:14:11,284 --> 00:14:19,258 be appropriately regulated, and it can be abandoned by the public. This would be your 126 00:14:19,258 --> 00:14:25,098 procedure for it's a standard ordinance procedure. So notice and hearing the evidentiary 127 00:14:25,098 --> 00:14:30,069 basis that I've seen in the court cases has been sworn testimony, photographs, 128 00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:35,775 historical documentation, expenditures by the county. And you would we would want to have 129 00:14:35,775 --> 00:14:40,179 very specific. Well, not specific, but not parcel specific. But we want to limit 130 00:14:40,179 --> 00:14:47,453 it to a to a geographical area and any other sources that would provide information. And 131 00:14:47,453 --> 00:14:52,158 then you would have to make legislative findings of facts, as you would for any ordinance 132 00:14:52,158 --> 00:14:58,698 that you pass. These are some of the definitions. And Tim is going to take over from here. 133 00:14:58,698 --> 00:15:03,436 We've heard a lot of definitions of words that have been used. We want to make sure 134 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:09,675 everybody has the same legislative understanding of the law in this area. Thank you. 135 00:15:09,675 --> 00:15:15,415 Commissioners. I'm Tim Day, deputy director for natural resources management department. 136 00:15:15,415 --> 00:15:23,523 What I anticipate is you get public testimony at the next BCC meeting is there's a series 137 00:15:23,523 --> 00:15:28,461 of terms that are likely to be utilized. And I wanted to make sure we were all working off of 138 00:15:28,461 --> 00:15:35,601 kind of the same definitions. These are all based on Florida statute. You know, one of the 139 00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:43,176 kind of harder ones to deal with is mean high water, which is from a regulatory stance 140 00:15:43,176 --> 00:15:48,915 from the sheriff's department where they try to work on trespass issues. It's 141 00:15:48,915 --> 00:15:56,489 generically looked at as wet sand. By definition, though, it's actually an elevation 142 00:15:56,489 --> 00:16:06,933 around just just under a foot. And. You know, essentially at a summertime high tide, mean high 143 00:16:06,933 --> 00:16:14,807 water is underwater during a winter high tide. The actual high tide mark is somewhere up 144 00:16:14,807 --> 00:16:22,281 on the dry, sandy beach. Because our tides sometimes are high, sometimes they're low. 145 00:16:22,281 --> 00:16:29,489 This is based on a 19 year average of tides to to establish our real point, what 146 00:16:29,489 --> 00:16:35,862 we utilize it for. For example, for Horus, a surveyor would do that to do that southern 147 00:16:35,862 --> 00:16:44,604 boundary for total acreage, to establish density. If, you know, if, if we tried to use mean 148 00:16:44,604 --> 00:16:50,610 high water as an actual location to enforce regulations, you would have to have a 149 00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:55,314 surveyor out there each time to establish exactly where it is as our sands, you know, even on 150 00:16:55,314 --> 00:17:00,386 a day to day basis, you know, we may get a little erosion one day, you may get a little 151 00:17:00,386 --> 00:17:09,362 accretion the next. The next one I'd like to do is just talk a little bit about beach 152 00:17:09,362 --> 00:17:17,036 nourishment under Florida statute. It's defined essentially as the process to 153 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:23,776 restore and eroded beach. That is also going to involve placing sands within the 154 00:17:23,776 --> 00:17:28,214 submerged lands of the Gulf of Mexico. So it's kind of like what's going on in Pensacola 155 00:17:28,214 --> 00:17:35,321 Beach right now as part of that process to do a nourishment project. And we did start this 156 00:17:35,321 --> 00:17:42,895 after Hurricane Ivan used erosion control line, which is a mean high water survey on a 157 00:17:42,895 --> 00:17:49,335 particular date. And the intent of that is, is to fix the southern boundary so that when 158 00:17:49,335 --> 00:17:55,474 you conduct that beach nourishment, you have a very clear delineation of what is 159 00:17:55,474 --> 00:18:00,913 being filled on sovereign submerged lands, which would become public beach, and the 160 00:18:00,913 --> 00:18:08,421 upland side, which would be remain private property. The coastal construction control 161 00:18:08,421 --> 00:18:17,897 line. Basically that exists on all barrier islands within Florida. There are two of them. 162 00:18:17,897 --> 00:18:23,536 The first one was established in the 70s. Very generally speaking, we prohibit all 163 00:18:23,536 --> 00:18:29,275 development other than dune walkovers. Seaward of that line. There is a newer one 164 00:18:29,275 --> 00:18:34,046 established in the 80s, and that's generally closer to. In this case, it's closer to 165 00:18:34,046 --> 00:18:41,253 Perdido Key Drive. And it's a regulatory line for DEP that if you propose construction 166 00:18:41,253 --> 00:18:46,626 seaward of it, the state has additional regulatory standards for construction that they have 167 00:18:46,626 --> 00:18:55,935 to meet. So it triggers the need for a permit. The last is just differentiating between 168 00:18:55,935 --> 00:19:04,276 beach nourishment and dune restoration. After Hurricane Ivan, the county embarked FEMA 169 00:19:04,276 --> 00:19:12,451 funded dune restoration project, in which we placed almost 1,000,000yd³ of sand up near 170 00:19:12,451 --> 00:19:19,058 construction areas along the quay, and the purpose of it was to provide a minimum level of 171 00:19:19,058 --> 00:19:24,130 protection for both the upland development and the county's infrastructure, the roads, 172 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:34,173 utilities, etc. since then, we have done two dune enhancements, which is involved additional 173 00:19:34,173 --> 00:19:39,612 vegetation, and we actually just closed a solicitation where a little bit later this 174 00:19:39,612 --> 00:19:49,922 year, we're going to be doing even further dune plantings on the key. But in in terms of, 175 00:19:49,922 --> 00:19:57,930 you know, something for customary use or has dune sorry, has beach nourishment occurred 176 00:19:57,930 --> 00:20:01,667 under Florida statute? It is not. Although it's you know, from an intuitive perspective, 177 00:20:01,667 --> 00:20:07,573 I can understand where the public could see. We place sand on the beach. Of course, you've 178 00:20:07,573 --> 00:20:15,147 restored the beaches, but for purposes of creating public lands, that process has not 179 00:20:15,147 --> 00:20:23,122 occurred on the key to date. And so that that concludes definitions. We'd be happy to 180 00:20:23,122 --> 00:20:32,431 help facilitate the discussion as the board feels fit. Oh, sorry. It's okay to assist the 181 00:20:32,431 --> 00:20:38,337 board. We have two maps of Perdido Key to lay out the portion. The east side and the 182 00:20:38,337 --> 00:20:44,310 west side is how we've laid it out. This is the east side. And you see in the middle there is 183 00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:51,884 the easement that we already have. That's that 75% 75 foot perpetual easement. And then to 184 00:20:51,884 --> 00:20:58,657 the right of that is the 4000ft for which if if there would be a customary use, that would be 185 00:20:58,657 --> 00:21:06,332 the area on the east side is that 4000ft out to the park at the Johnson Beach Park, and 186 00:21:06,332 --> 00:21:14,607 then the next slide is the west side, and you can see in the dark blue that's not only 187 00:21:14,607 --> 00:21:20,746 access, that's that's property that we actually own on Perdido Key, on the, on the, on the 188 00:21:20,746 --> 00:21:32,858 sand. So you've got about one mile on one side and about 1.25 miles on the other. So we are 189 00:21:32,858 --> 00:21:40,466 open if, if we can help the board. Madam chair. Yes, sir. Christie, can you go back to 190 00:21:40,466 --> 00:21:49,909 the other map, the first map. Okay. So yeah. So the second map is only breaking down the 191 00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:54,480 western part of this map. Is that how that is that how you're doing that? No, sir. So 192 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,952 this is this map is the eastern side of the key. So it's between Johnson Beach and 193 00:21:59,952 --> 00:22:06,492 Perdido Key State Park. We have the three little slivers you see are county public accesses. 194 00:22:06,492 --> 00:22:11,764 Yeah. And then can you go to the next map? I'm sorry. Can we go clear. That's the wrong way. 195 00:22:11,764 --> 00:22:17,536 So this is the west side. So it goes from the state park to the Flora-bama. And on the west 196 00:22:17,536 --> 00:22:21,807 side of the park, we only have beach access number four, which is the area highlighted in blue. 197 00:22:21,807 --> 00:22:31,917 Can you get back to the first map again? Yes, sir. Okay. So. But okay, that 75 foot easement, 198 00:22:31,917 --> 00:22:41,727 that was the issue a couple of years ago. Yes. Was it just last year? Okay, okay. And that 199 00:22:41,727 --> 00:22:45,965 that's the only portion that that's related to is that stretch that's in darker blue 200 00:22:45,965 --> 00:22:56,475 was approximately 1.2 miles in width. And it's it was memorialized on the plat as 75 201 00:22:56,475 --> 00:23:01,947 foot. Okay. And then that doesn't extend anywhere west of the state park. That's just 202 00:23:01,947 --> 00:23:09,922 this portion on this one map. Correct. Okay. All right. Well, the 4000, this is what you're 203 00:23:09,922 --> 00:23:18,163 talking about. No, I'm talking about the darker blue over here. Okay. Yeah. That's the and and 204 00:23:18,163 --> 00:23:22,201 that doesn't go any that doesn't go any closer to Johnson Beach, nor does it go 205 00:23:22,201 --> 00:23:27,239 west of the state park, which this was part of a plat. Yeah, from the 50s. And so it's only 206 00:23:27,239 --> 00:23:32,845 that 1.2 miles. All right. So and another thing Christy mentioned, just making sure I 207 00:23:32,845 --> 00:23:41,153 understand that the geography where the customary use if we exerted that it wouldn't would 208 00:23:41,153 --> 00:23:46,125 it not pertain to here because of that easement already exists. Is that what you're so what she 209 00:23:46,125 --> 00:23:54,433 said two thoughts. One is we are not recommending doing anything that might disrupt 210 00:23:54,433 --> 00:24:03,108 this 75 foot easement. So I would avoid overlaying anything on this easement. So we are not 211 00:24:03,108 --> 00:24:10,616 recommending messing with the 75 foot easement. And for the for the boards information. 212 00:24:10,616 --> 00:24:16,355 It's our interpretation that customary use is not an all or nothing proposition. It can be 213 00:24:16,355 --> 00:24:22,127 smaller pieces. It's not all of the beach or none it you may choose to go in that direction, 214 00:24:22,127 --> 00:24:28,233 but it's not an all or nothing proposition. It needs to be based on what you believe, the 215 00:24:28,233 --> 00:24:35,708 evidence to show you as to where historical, recreational customary use exists. In the 216 00:24:35,708 --> 00:24:41,914 most broad interpretation, what you're saying is this this 4000ft, that's east of the 75 217 00:24:41,914 --> 00:24:47,353 foot easement west of Johnson's Beach, that Johnson Beach, that's one that would be one 218 00:24:47,353 --> 00:24:52,157 portion that we could exert. And then on that other slide, it would be the portion west of 219 00:24:52,157 --> 00:24:57,062 the state park that potentially we could exert. That's the I think what they're 220 00:24:57,062 --> 00:25:05,437 demonstrating to you is the areas where public memorialized access is lacking, meaning you 221 00:25:05,437 --> 00:25:11,910 don't appear to have easements or county owned property. Right? This 1.25 miles, this one mile 222 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:17,383 and the other 4000ft, these are your significant weaknesses as far as memorialized easements 223 00:25:17,383 --> 00:25:22,221 or ownership. So with the most the most broad interpretation of customary use would be 224 00:25:22,221 --> 00:25:30,195 potentially those. So we're talking about primarily three sections there okay. Correct. 225 00:25:30,195 --> 00:25:46,745 Okay. All right. Thank you. I have lots of questions. What is prescriptive easement mean. If 226 00:25:46,745 --> 00:25:51,116 you to to establish a prescriptive easement you'd have to establish it's 227 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:55,788 basically like similar to adverse possession. But that's not the whole of it. So you'd 228 00:25:55,788 --> 00:26:02,561 have to establish there was continuous notorious uninterrupted use for 20 years 229 00:26:02,561 --> 00:26:07,633 is the general specific period of time. There'd have to be actual knowledge of the owner 230 00:26:07,633 --> 00:26:15,908 or, and, or it had had to be so open and notorious and visible that it like adverse possession. 231 00:26:15,908 --> 00:26:20,712 And then it would have to be for a limited and defined area of land. So it is more parcel 232 00:26:20,712 --> 00:26:26,452 by parcel requirements. Okay. And then the picture that we're looking at here, I'm assuming 233 00:26:26,452 --> 00:26:31,990 the light gray lines are parcel by parcel. And it looks like some of those go all the way to 234 00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:41,100 the water line, but some of them do not. So what what's generally reflected there is 235 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:46,138 just think of it this way. That's really just the map that that's done by the property 236 00:26:46,138 --> 00:26:54,813 appraiser. So they have to define a line. And so I believe that southern line may reflect 237 00:26:54,813 --> 00:27:01,220 an old erosion control line before it was vacated, but it doesn't reflect where they're 238 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:07,059 deeded access goes because as we kind of talked about earlier, as the, you know, day by day, 239 00:27:07,059 --> 00:27:12,698 year by year, that shoreline is adjusting. And so to produce a map, you would have to to have 240 00:27:12,698 --> 00:27:18,203 an accurate map, you'd have to produce it very often to make it look the same. Generally 241 00:27:18,203 --> 00:27:24,209 speaking, the west side of the island tends to accrete sand, so it's generally a building 242 00:27:24,209 --> 00:27:28,814 beach. And it's that's part of why I would suggest that that where it looks like the sands 243 00:27:28,814 --> 00:27:33,352 are going beyond the parcel lines. Okay. And then I know on Pensacola Beach it's 244 00:27:33,352 --> 00:27:39,391 drastically different, but they're all under different leases. The folks that live out 245 00:27:39,391 --> 00:27:44,596 here, that own property on Perdido Key, do some of their deeds, say all the way to the 246 00:27:44,596 --> 00:27:49,601 water line and some of them say mean high water line. Do we know what the deeds say? It's 247 00:27:49,601 --> 00:27:55,274 so their southern boundary would have been mean high water. So if it's and we can I can 248 00:27:55,274 --> 00:28:00,612 provide them before tonight's meeting. Just so you have it in plenty of time. Just examples 249 00:28:00,612 --> 00:28:05,851 of we can do a handful of deeds so you can see it. But and they're consistent. But their 250 00:28:05,851 --> 00:28:10,789 southern boundaries are tied to the mean high water. Okay. Perfect. And then you mentioned 251 00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:16,562 dune enhancements. What funded the dune enhancements were that was that grant funded or did 252 00:28:16,562 --> 00:28:22,301 that come from somewhere else. So the initial one was primarily funded by FEMA. 253 00:28:22,301 --> 00:28:30,475 During that time, we also received several state grants. And so basically all all the 254 00:28:30,475 --> 00:28:37,749 improvements have happened have had almost no county match during the original FEMA 255 00:28:37,749 --> 00:28:44,289 construction. There always is a little local match with FEMA project, but the county has not 256 00:28:44,289 --> 00:28:50,262 had local funds expended towards dune restoration. Okay, so we haven't taken taxpayer 257 00:28:50,262 --> 00:28:56,068 like ad valorem dollars or lost money and put it into dune restoration on Perdido Key. 258 00:28:56,068 --> 00:29:00,205 It's I'm going to say that's correct. With the exception of is we did have a little local 259 00:29:00,205 --> 00:29:06,545 match in every FEMA project. So it's we can we clarify what the little bit of match was? Yes. 260 00:29:06,545 --> 00:29:15,220 That would be great. Yeah. So I'm going to have to so generally on a hurricane when 261 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:23,795 we get match it's usually a 7525 split. The 25 is half state half county. With 262 00:29:23,795 --> 00:29:33,505 Hurricane Ivan we received some additional consideration where that went to a 9010 split. And 263 00:29:33,505 --> 00:29:39,544 so my best recollection is on those FEMA projects throughout the county is it would have 264 00:29:39,544 --> 00:29:46,952 been 90% FEMA, 5% state, 5% county. So it was I mean, none of us, you know, even 265 00:29:46,952 --> 00:29:51,523 Commissioner May and I weren't on the board. I mean, this is over 20 years ago. So was that 266 00:29:51,523 --> 00:29:57,396 a $10 million project? Was it a $5 million project? It just. And if you don't know, later 267 00:29:57,396 --> 00:30:01,233 today is fine. If you don't know all these numbers off the top, yes, I can get the 268 00:30:01,233 --> 00:30:05,570 information. It's fairly expensive because ultimately the dune restoration. So if if 269 00:30:05,570 --> 00:30:10,642 you remember photos from Ivan, the island was pretty well destroyed. If something was 270 00:30:10,642 --> 00:30:17,849 built like in the 80s or before, it was generally destroyed by Ivan. And so we did have 271 00:30:17,849 --> 00:30:22,888 working agreements. The contract was mobilized, they went out, they collected debris. 272 00:30:22,888 --> 00:30:27,926 They sifted sand to create sand to go back, you know, clean sand to go back onto the 273 00:30:27,926 --> 00:30:32,998 beaches. We also took sands that were dredged out of the intercoastal waterway by the 274 00:30:32,998 --> 00:30:40,906 Army Corps, restoring commerce, and brought those sands to help do the project. So it I mean, 275 00:30:40,906 --> 00:30:45,577 it's if it was a $20 million project, it means it was still $1 million of local money 20 276 00:30:45,577 --> 00:30:50,615 years ago. I mean, yes, it's it's I'll double check it. It probably exceeds $10 million 277 00:30:50,615 --> 00:30:55,721 pretty easily. Okay. All right. Thank you. And then is there a parking at Beach Access one or 278 00:30:55,721 --> 00:31:00,959 is that strictly for pedestrians to access the beach? There currently is parking 279 00:31:00,959 --> 00:31:06,198 along the there's a north south right of way leading to access one. I would have to recount 280 00:31:06,198 --> 00:31:12,504 the spaces. I think there's approximately 28 spaces there at access number one. Perfect. 281 00:31:12,504 --> 00:31:23,648 Thank you so much. Another thing to keep in mind, if we do have a public hearing to 282 00:31:23,648 --> 00:31:29,454 consider an ordinance, if you remember, a few years ago, the state legislature changed the 283 00:31:29,454 --> 00:31:34,559 obligations for an ordinance, and most ordinances now require some sort of business impact 284 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:38,764 study to be done unless it meets an exemption. This doesn't appear to be something 285 00:31:38,764 --> 00:31:43,902 that might meet an exemption. So that's another piece of the backup and research that would 286 00:31:43,902 --> 00:31:49,641 be needed in order to proceed with an ordinance. What is the process to having that study 287 00:31:49,641 --> 00:31:57,883 done? Well, I mean, I think you have some leeway in what that would look like. I do know that 288 00:31:57,883 --> 00:32:05,424 in a very formal sense, we have used up Haas Center for some things I have not. I need some 289 00:32:05,424 --> 00:32:10,796 board direction as far as whether or not that's something that you would be interested in 290 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:19,070 pursuing. But that's been one of our resources in, in the past. It's just food for 291 00:32:19,070 --> 00:32:26,378 thought. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Yes, sir. So none of the discussion related to this has 292 00:32:26,378 --> 00:32:31,183 any impact on Pensacola Beach, correct? No. Okay. I mean, literally I mean, not just very 293 00:32:31,183 --> 00:32:36,121 little impact. It literally has no impact. Correct. The Pensacola Beach situation is so 294 00:32:36,121 --> 00:32:40,725 factually different from this. It is night and day. All of Santa Rosa Island is publicly 295 00:32:40,725 --> 00:32:47,365 owned at the very root of it. The lease lines are drawn differently than the deed lines 296 00:32:47,365 --> 00:32:52,270 out on Perdido Key. It is night and day. It is apples and oranges. It has nothing to do 297 00:32:52,270 --> 00:32:57,709 with this conversation, in my opinion. Okay. All right. I just wanted to make sure when 298 00:32:57,709 --> 00:33:03,081 you, Tim, when you pull the dollar amount that we spent with the Dune enhancements, can 299 00:33:03,081 --> 00:33:09,287 you also drop those on one of these maps so we know where they are in correspondence to 300 00:33:09,287 --> 00:33:21,399 the beach accesses and the easement? Yes I can. It's when I go to I'm sorry. So very 301 00:33:21,399 --> 00:33:27,606 generally if we over if I were to overlay the dune restoration area, you know with an aerial 302 00:33:27,606 --> 00:33:33,879 you would generally see a line about the same width as a 75 foot easement just south of the 303 00:33:33,879 --> 00:33:39,818 line of development. So it's on Pensacola Beach where the dune exists, and you see how the 304 00:33:39,818 --> 00:33:45,857 development noses up to it. It would look very similar to that, but it's it's I do have 305 00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:51,596 drawings that have the Dune surveyed. Perfect. Thank you so much. Yes, sir. Commissioner 306 00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:58,103 Strubegger. So I've been getting surveys sent to me from property owners on Pareto key, 307 00:33:58,103 --> 00:34:06,478 and they clearly show that they have the deed. They own the property. Is she still there? 308 00:34:06,478 --> 00:34:15,720 Madam attorney, there's no dispute that these are private properties. No. That's why 309 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:23,662 you're having this conversation is because they. I do believe that there is private ownership 310 00:34:23,662 --> 00:34:30,535 based on deeds. And then what rights historically has the public gained across them? So 311 00:34:30,535 --> 00:34:41,513 I'm not disputing that there is private ownership. Okay. And and so I as you can imagine, 312 00:34:41,513 --> 00:34:47,152 I've been getting a lot of information from you, Tim, about this subject. I've been 313 00:34:47,152 --> 00:34:54,793 reading a lot about Walton County, and you correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, maybe 314 00:34:54,793 --> 00:35:00,799 you just, you know, shake your head or something. I don't know, it's. That was like an $8 315 00:35:00,799 --> 00:35:05,470 million lawsuit. So I think there's some misconceptions about this, about what 316 00:35:05,470 --> 00:35:14,379 customary use is and what. What the property owner's rights are. I think somebody had said once 317 00:35:14,379 --> 00:35:22,754 that, no, it was, you know, when when. Customary use was thrown back to us to decide 318 00:35:22,754 --> 00:35:30,962 than it was what customary use would and what the. What that would look like, particularly 319 00:35:30,962 --> 00:35:39,604 in Perdido Key that we. That the property owners that there would be no lawsuits, property 320 00:35:39,604 --> 00:35:44,009 owners still have their day in court and every one of them can still sue, right? They can, 321 00:35:44,009 --> 00:35:51,182 just like they did in Walton County. The the I do think the situation is a little bit 322 00:35:51,182 --> 00:35:56,921 different just factually than Walton County, but I do. I've been getting the email traffic 323 00:35:56,921 --> 00:36:03,328 similar to to many of you, and I do think that we have been warned that there will be 324 00:36:03,328 --> 00:36:12,404 lawsuits. I have been warned also. Yes. So for me, this is this is both an easy and a 325 00:36:12,404 --> 00:36:17,108 difficult issue. I think everyone feels the same way. It's easy. It's easy for me 326 00:36:17,108 --> 00:36:23,948 because we're the legislative body, right? We're the legislative body for the county. 327 00:36:23,948 --> 00:36:30,388 And our job is simple. It's it's to protect life, liberty and property. And I'm very 328 00:36:30,388 --> 00:36:34,059 grounded in my beliefs. And I don't believe my principles are better than anyone else's 329 00:36:34,059 --> 00:36:38,730 principles. I just believe that I'm very grounded in what I believe, and I believe in 330 00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:43,935 property rights, and I also believe in public access. And I don't think they should be in 331 00:36:43,935 --> 00:36:50,608 conflict, I don't I also don't believe that the public's perceived right to trample on 332 00:36:50,608 --> 00:36:58,950 private property. Trumps property rights. I mean, where where do we draw the line if we 333 00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:03,888 don't draw the line right now, how do I know that's not going to happen on my own personal 334 00:37:03,888 --> 00:37:11,096 property? I got an interior lot. Why does it stop here? Why does it? Why isn't it on old River? 335 00:37:11,096 --> 00:37:18,236 Why is it on that side? Why is it on that side of the water of of that of that island? I just 336 00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:26,911 don't know where it ends. And I just can't let you know. Mob rule. I know elections are are 337 00:37:26,911 --> 00:37:32,717 what drives decisions. A lot of times this is not an election issue for me, not because I 338 00:37:32,717 --> 00:37:36,721 don't have an election, but because this is foundational for me. I believe in property 339 00:37:36,721 --> 00:37:41,926 rights. I've traveled around the world, and I, I've been to countries without property 340 00:37:41,926 --> 00:37:48,867 rights. We have them here and people own that property. And what you're what you think and 341 00:37:48,867 --> 00:37:53,705 I've heard is that we're not we don't want the property. We just want to. We just want to 342 00:37:53,705 --> 00:37:59,677 be able to be on the beach there. You won't own it. The property owners will still own 343 00:37:59,677 --> 00:38:04,048 it, and they'll still have to clean that beach. Right? They'll own that property and 344 00:38:04,048 --> 00:38:08,386 they'll have to. Yes, they will. And that's that's what happens in Walton County. You can shake 345 00:38:08,386 --> 00:38:13,992 your head, but you don't know. They have to clean. They still own that property and they have 346 00:38:13,992 --> 00:38:19,297 to clean the property. The county does not own it. They've taken no custody of that. And 347 00:38:19,297 --> 00:38:25,069 you saw the slide. They've taken no county. They take no ownership of it. So they don't 348 00:38:25,069 --> 00:38:29,941 there's no liability for the county, but there will be for the property owners if someone 349 00:38:29,941 --> 00:38:35,880 gets hurt on there, just like personal property. You know, where I live and my house, that 350 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:42,086 that's a good question. So in a world, if we did decide to move forward with this life, safety 351 00:38:42,086 --> 00:38:47,492 is a huge aspect of that. What would be the county's responsibility of having 352 00:38:47,492 --> 00:38:54,699 lifeguards out there, or does that fall on the individual property owners? First of all, 353 00:38:54,699 --> 00:39:02,207 you're not ever obligated to provide lifeguards. You're not obligated to do that. There are 354 00:39:02,207 --> 00:39:07,946 areas even on Pensacola Beach, which is publicly owned, you're not obligated to have them 355 00:39:07,946 --> 00:39:14,485 everywhere where you have a public access or use of the property. So that would still 356 00:39:14,485 --> 00:39:20,959 be a question for this board to to deal with. We have been providing, I believe, some 357 00:39:20,959 --> 00:39:25,930 lifeguards out on Perdido Key at these access points already, but those are within the 358 00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:31,436 easement. Correct. Or these access points is where I thought that we had them 359 00:39:31,436 --> 00:39:37,175 stationed. Mr. Commissioner may know better than I, but I think we have, but not on the private 360 00:39:37,175 --> 00:39:42,347 property. Right, right, right. So theoretically, if something was to happen at the backyard 361 00:39:42,347 --> 00:39:47,685 of one of the condos and someone was to lose their life, could that family sue the condo 362 00:39:47,685 --> 00:39:53,658 for not having a lifeguard? I mean, people sue for lots of things. Yeah. I mean, I, you 363 00:39:53,658 --> 00:40:01,866 know, usually these there are statutory protections and legal authority that that helps. 364 00:40:01,866 --> 00:40:06,971 Anytime you're dealing with a drowning case, it's obviously a dangerous thing. Your Mother 365 00:40:06,971 --> 00:40:12,210 Nature acts of God, that sort of thing. But, you know, people do come up with unique ideas 366 00:40:12,210 --> 00:40:18,116 for lawsuits all the time. Is there anything in the new or the repealing of the 367 00:40:18,116 --> 00:40:24,255 legislation that provides protection for the property owners? No, I'm not aware of 368 00:40:24,255 --> 00:40:30,728 anything that that was added to help protect with liability. I think existing case law would 369 00:40:30,728 --> 00:40:39,037 govern. Okay. Thank you so much. Let's see. Commissioner Koehler. Thank you, Madam Chair, and 370 00:40:39,037 --> 00:40:44,943 thank you for this call today. My little over three years on the board, I don't think we've 371 00:40:44,943 --> 00:40:53,451 had anything this polarizing as of today. On any given day, we get 20 emails on both sides for 372 00:40:53,451 --> 00:41:01,259 and against. And so I reflect on what's the goal. There's 335,000 people in Escambia 373 00:41:01,259 --> 00:41:07,465 County. I think we all want more beach access. But I also agree with Commissioner 374 00:41:07,465 --> 00:41:13,504 Strasburger and the attorney. I think that we can get more beach access, but there needs 375 00:41:13,504 --> 00:41:22,246 to be give and take on both sides, I support that. When you look at the current 75ft, it's 376 00:41:22,246 --> 00:41:29,821 on the heading towards Johnson Beach and the other 400 that 4000ft right there. I think you 377 00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:36,294 have some opportunity there and over towards the floor. Bama. But I look at this and I'll 378 00:41:36,294 --> 00:41:44,235 share it from a different perspective. I lived at 1008 North Roose in North Hill for 379 00:41:44,235 --> 00:41:50,708 six years, right across the street's Alabama Square. It was less than 75ft, I can assure 380 00:41:50,708 --> 00:41:58,549 you. From my sidewalk to the park. Now, I didn't control when someone left a beer can or 381 00:41:58,549 --> 00:42:04,155 cigarette or I'd have to pick it up. I didn't like it and like that at all, but I love 382 00:42:04,155 --> 00:42:08,326 living across the park, and occasionally I'd have some homeless person sleeping in the 383 00:42:08,326 --> 00:42:12,697 hammock and stuff like that. There is real problems, Steve. There's real problems with this, 384 00:42:12,697 --> 00:42:17,502 and we have a responsibility, no matter what we do, to clean up the beach, just like we do 385 00:42:17,502 --> 00:42:22,507 at Pensacola Beach. If we do this, the homeowners out there do not deserve to have garbage 386 00:42:22,507 --> 00:42:28,112 all over the beach, no matter what we decide. But I don't think my recommendation would 387 00:42:28,112 --> 00:42:35,286 be for the folks here today. And Tim, have we had any meetings with the customer use 388 00:42:35,286 --> 00:42:41,059 folks and the beach condo people and the town hall with the county to see if there's 389 00:42:41,059 --> 00:42:49,100 any common ground? To my knowledge, we haven't had anything specific, but what I 390 00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:53,738 was going to say is Commissioner Berger has brought it up as a topic in his recent 391 00:42:53,738 --> 00:42:59,877 meeting. Has there been any any sort of give and take, Commissioner Sternberger? No, I 392 00:42:59,877 --> 00:43:07,085 think the condo owners and the property owners out there are pretty firm in that they own 393 00:43:07,085 --> 00:43:11,589 the property as black or white. Do we own it or not? That's what they've said universally. 394 00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:19,230 They've said, do we own the property? Don't we own the property? I had a town hall 395 00:43:19,230 --> 00:43:26,704 last week and I had a. I went to a neighborhood watch this week, another neighborhood 396 00:43:26,704 --> 00:43:33,611 watch last week, probably attended by between the three, maybe 130 people. It was a full 397 00:43:33,611 --> 00:43:44,188 house at the town hall. Between all that, all those discussions, I brought this issue up and two 398 00:43:44,188 --> 00:43:48,459 people raised their hands about customary use. The rest of them didn't know anything about it. 399 00:43:48,459 --> 00:43:53,231 They didn't know about it. In fact, at the town hall, they wanted to move on. It wasn't a 400 00:43:53,231 --> 00:43:57,268 subject they wanted to talk about. They wanted to talk about Beulah. And we did. We 401 00:43:57,268 --> 00:44:01,372 talked about Buell. That's what we started out talking about. But I thought it was something 402 00:44:01,372 --> 00:44:05,209 that it is something that affects the whole county. The whole county probably needs to 403 00:44:05,209 --> 00:44:12,717 know about it and discuss it. And there's little or no interest. And in fact, the when 404 00:44:12,717 --> 00:44:18,923 was it? Was it yesterday. I'm getting I think it was, man. I think it was Tuesday night. I 405 00:44:18,923 --> 00:44:26,631 was at the Neighborhood Watch and yeah, it was Tuesday night. And those people believe the 406 00:44:26,631 --> 00:44:32,069 same way I do. That was an Avondale. They believed like I do, that property rights is 407 00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:40,711 pretty foundational, right. And that I should protect that. That's my duty to do that. And 408 00:44:40,711 --> 00:44:46,651 they argued even as we we spoke for those property rights, because I think they put 409 00:44:46,651 --> 00:44:56,527 themselves in the the property owner's shoes on the beach because they're property owners. 410 00:44:56,527 --> 00:45:02,934 Well, I can look out in the audience and see that there's people that care about this. I 411 00:45:02,934 --> 00:45:12,310 my suggestion would be is to have staff and potentially look at what what areas that could 412 00:45:12,310 --> 00:45:19,984 potentially be customary use if there are any. And I, I think that's we don't have to take 413 00:45:19,984 --> 00:45:24,222 action. Is that right? No, no we don't have to take action. If I could finish. Thank you. 414 00:45:24,222 --> 00:45:30,728 Thank you. I was talking first. Point of order, Madam Chair. I was asking if we could look and 415 00:45:30,728 --> 00:45:36,534 have public hearing. Not not take action today, but at least have a conversation to see 416 00:45:36,534 --> 00:45:42,373 where we could get on something. And the other thing I'd like to bring up is on Johnson's Beach. 417 00:45:42,373 --> 00:45:47,278 There was some fallacy that we wanted to buy the beach. No one ever wanted to buy the beach. I 418 00:45:47,278 --> 00:45:53,317 wanted a daily rate. So $4. Just like the state park people say, well, $25 isn't that much. 419 00:45:53,317 --> 00:45:57,855 Well, it is for a lot of people that live in Myrtle Grove. So the people out there used to be 420 00:45:57,855 --> 00:46:03,661 open to everyone. When I was in E2, I went out there. I get it, we have to support that. I 421 00:46:03,661 --> 00:46:07,798 think the board should write the Department of Interior and ask for a daily rate. You know, 422 00:46:07,798 --> 00:46:13,604 I know it's $45 a year, $7 for our $25 for seven days, but there doesn't seem like any 423 00:46:13,604 --> 00:46:18,409 reason why we shouldn't ask the Department of Interior for a daily rate. You know, a lot of 424 00:46:18,409 --> 00:46:23,080 people don't that aren't on their vacation. Can't spend seven days out of the beach. 425 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,184 They can take their kid for their birthday party. So I would love to have the board 426 00:46:27,184 --> 00:46:31,255 support something like that for beach access as well. So I don't know where the board is 427 00:46:31,255 --> 00:46:35,526 going to land, but I do think we need to have a discussion. I'm not saying Commissioner 428 00:46:35,526 --> 00:46:40,164 Strober, we need to take action today. Not asking that. No, we can't take action today or at 429 00:46:40,164 --> 00:46:44,835 this meeting especially. But here's what the conversation in just a moment. If you're in the 430 00:46:44,835 --> 00:46:48,739 audience and you're flipping the bird, to us, that is also inappropriate, sir, with the 431 00:46:48,739 --> 00:46:58,916 glasses. So let's not do that. Thank you. So here are the conversations I've been having, 432 00:46:58,916 --> 00:47:03,554 because I don't think the problem is the problem is getting the beach so and 433 00:47:03,554 --> 00:47:10,328 getting the beach and be able to use the beach. I in conversations with the 434 00:47:10,328 --> 00:47:15,066 gentleman that owns the parcels next to a couple parcels next to beach access number three, 435 00:47:15,066 --> 00:47:24,475 and we've sent him the appraisals. We haven't got to come back from him yet. Yeah. 436 00:47:24,475 --> 00:47:31,115 So it's we'd engaged quite a bit last year. And the difference between, you know, 437 00:47:31,115 --> 00:47:38,322 the appraised value and his asking price is approximately $1 million. We're communicating 438 00:47:38,322 --> 00:47:43,961 with him to make sure that he's still firm on that price and, and are intending to bring it 439 00:47:43,961 --> 00:47:50,000 for the board's consideration, you know, to see how we might fund the difference. There is a 440 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:56,407 restore pot, one project that will pay the average of two appraisals. And we do have 441 00:47:56,407 --> 00:48:02,012 funding in that restore Pot one project as well to do the improvements if it's acquired 442 00:48:02,012 --> 00:48:06,183 by the board. That's pretty key. I didn't know that you told me that yesterday that the 443 00:48:06,183 --> 00:48:12,123 improvements would be also funded. So we would have we it would eliminate a lot of the 444 00:48:12,123 --> 00:48:17,027 issues we have out there at that, at that beach access point number three, where 445 00:48:17,027 --> 00:48:22,533 everyone's getting stuck in the sand too. Probably. The other thing is legislative days was 446 00:48:22,533 --> 00:48:28,839 in Tallahassee with some other commissioners. And, and I, I talked briefly with Secretary 447 00:48:28,839 --> 00:48:33,511 Lambert, the Department of Environmental Protection secretary. She put me in 448 00:48:33,511 --> 00:48:39,550 contact with her, her deputy. She said they have these kinds of partnerships. I asked about 449 00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:48,225 a partnership with Escambia County and our two state parks out there on Perdido Key Drive 450 00:48:48,225 --> 00:48:55,466 that's east and west. The state parks, and we can come up with a way for all Escambia 451 00:48:55,466 --> 00:49:00,304 residents. And I just mean Escambia residents. Now, to be able to use those parks, we'll 452 00:49:00,304 --> 00:49:07,478 have to agree on how we do that. And and I expect to have a meeting with him personally in 453 00:49:07,478 --> 00:49:12,082 the in the next couple of weeks to try to iron out some of those details. So that would 454 00:49:12,082 --> 00:49:18,556 provide more beach access for everybody. Problem is, I don't think that's going to be enough. 455 00:49:18,556 --> 00:49:26,063 It just won't be enough. Because yeah, that's exactly why. Because compromise is not 456 00:49:26,063 --> 00:49:33,971 something we come to easily here. It's always a fight to the death. And and that's where 457 00:49:33,971 --> 00:49:39,109 we're going to go. We're going to spend taxpayers money on a lawsuit, a big lawsuit. And 458 00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:44,882 what's going to happen is we're going to still not own the property, and the property 459 00:49:44,882 --> 00:49:49,186 owners are still going to have the liability and the garbage to pick up when someone's 460 00:49:49,186 --> 00:49:54,492 playing beer pong in their backyard, or just trashing the beach in general, or someone 461 00:49:54,492 --> 00:50:02,500 steps on some glass on their property. I'm trying to avoid all that. So I'm not. I'm still 462 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:07,271 going to pursue more property, beach access. That's what I want to do, and I think that's 463 00:50:07,271 --> 00:50:18,382 the right thing to do. I think this whole subject of customary use is, is trouble. It's it's 464 00:50:18,382 --> 00:50:23,020 asking for trouble. And it's not going to be easy to prove, am I right? It's not going to 465 00:50:23,020 --> 00:50:28,659 be easy to prove. You can't just say, I went fishing here or I used to go swimming here. 466 00:50:28,659 --> 00:50:36,367 That's not enough. That's not enough. It's got to be historical to be uninterrupted. 467 00:50:36,367 --> 00:50:41,639 It goes in and out so I could. I'm sorry. Can I add a second question to that? Currently, 468 00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:45,776 they do have the ability to swim and stay in the wet sand as well. So the customary use 469 00:50:45,776 --> 00:50:53,984 is more of the dry sand issue. Yes it is. It's a dry sand issue. The the wet sand or the 470 00:50:53,984 --> 00:51:00,124 except for of course, when the when the tide comes in in the summer that's protected. That's 471 00:51:00,124 --> 00:51:06,196 protected by state law. It can't be anything below the mean high tide is protected by 472 00:51:06,196 --> 00:51:10,701 state law. And so they could certainly use that. They could, you know, fish to their heart's 473 00:51:10,701 --> 00:51:15,306 content, put in, you know, lay out there, be there with their chairs anything like that. But 474 00:51:15,306 --> 00:51:20,377 as far as the, the dry sand, that's, that would be where the customary use would come in. So 475 00:51:20,377 --> 00:51:27,484 let me ask you this. So. The compromise they ended up with after the millions of dollars, 476 00:51:27,484 --> 00:51:32,823 and I don't think it's even done yet, is that it was 20ft. That's what they came up with, 477 00:51:32,823 --> 00:51:39,630 20ft. The property owner still owned the property. They have to clean the the beach. That's 478 00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:47,271 still their responsibility, not the county's responsibility. And what was my last point? 479 00:51:47,271 --> 00:51:54,078 It's not getting any better. I that's why I got to write these things down. It's still there. 480 00:51:54,078 --> 00:51:59,850 It's they still have the liability on that beach. And one of the issues that and it's 481 00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:07,758 not and I've heard this many, many times is is these. Yeah. These folks you know more 482 00:52:07,758 --> 00:52:15,299 likely it's, it's the spring breakers coming in and using the pool, using the bathrooms 483 00:52:15,299 --> 00:52:19,703 and all that stuff, because the porta potties are kind of a lousy idea out there. I don't 484 00:52:19,703 --> 00:52:24,408 like those. And that's another thing I'm pursuing. I'd like to get something resembling a 485 00:52:24,408 --> 00:52:28,746 Portland loo that we can haul in and out of there. That that's a lot nicer and a lot 486 00:52:28,746 --> 00:52:36,820 more welcoming for the western gate of the of Florida. Yeah, I think that's all I got. It'll 487 00:52:36,820 --> 00:52:42,993 come back, Commissioner Barry. Yeah. Thank you. So, Mike, are you back to what you were 488 00:52:42,993 --> 00:52:48,866 saying? Are you asking to see if the board is interested in having the staff, like, look at 489 00:52:48,866 --> 00:52:56,106 the different sections and see where see where we can make the best immediate case for 490 00:52:56,106 --> 00:53:00,744 customer use because it I would like that. And then I would like to have a public 491 00:53:00,744 --> 00:53:06,850 discussion with these folks and the people in the condos to see if we can get to some sort of 492 00:53:06,850 --> 00:53:10,954 compromise. I do agree with Commissioner Strassburger on two things. When you look at 493 00:53:10,954 --> 00:53:16,927 the definition on customer use, I do think without interruption and free from dispute is a 494 00:53:16,927 --> 00:53:21,131 problem. I don't know where it's going to land in court. I don't know that. Right? I don't 495 00:53:21,131 --> 00:53:26,136 know, but I'd prefer not to get into a lawsuit. I'd rather try to work to get more customer 496 00:53:26,136 --> 00:53:31,642 use with you folks and the condo owners. And to answer your question, in short, yes. 497 00:53:31,642 --> 00:53:36,714 Okay. I mean, I think that's a you know, I think that's a good idea. It seems like a good idea 498 00:53:36,714 --> 00:53:43,587 to try to see is part of the documentation for Tim. So, as you know, as the county would 499 00:53:43,587 --> 00:53:52,896 hypothetically try to exercise or to to document the. To document customary use, I mean, 500 00:53:52,896 --> 00:54:02,339 that's the creation of that case or that, that that file is not just the product of 501 00:54:02,339 --> 00:54:06,310 information that we possess currently. Right? We would then take like if we were say, we 502 00:54:06,310 --> 00:54:15,786 were looking at one section and this seems to be where the most. You know, I don't know that 503 00:54:15,786 --> 00:54:19,823 anybody knows more about the goings on out there than you or maybe chips, but you know, 504 00:54:19,823 --> 00:54:24,762 where, you know, one of you thinks that that that we have the best case and, you know, we 505 00:54:24,762 --> 00:54:31,435 have some documentation, but then would we take information from the public to also to 506 00:54:31,435 --> 00:54:35,939 supplant to, to supplement that file that we're building for what our case is, is that how 507 00:54:35,939 --> 00:54:42,780 that works? Yes, sir. So I mean, what I would suggest in terms of staff making determinations 508 00:54:42,780 --> 00:54:47,284 of kind of the best spots, you know, there's some softball areas out there and it's the 509 00:54:47,284 --> 00:54:52,623 easy one is out by Flora-bama. That is an area that or you know, any commercial 510 00:54:52,623 --> 00:54:57,327 restaurants. These are areas where for as long as it's been in existence, they've invited 511 00:54:57,327 --> 00:55:02,032 people there. You know, there's a benefit to their products. So something like the Flora-bama 512 00:55:02,032 --> 00:55:07,805 complex is an easy recommendation that, yes, customary use is there in terms 513 00:55:07,805 --> 00:55:13,577 of, you know, if we were to look in other areas of the beach that are residential in 514 00:55:13,577 --> 00:55:22,686 nature. You know, it's I've been an employee for 26 years. Most of that has been partially 515 00:55:22,686 --> 00:55:28,425 involved with the key or both islands. I certainly have personal observations, but it's 516 00:55:28,425 --> 00:55:34,665 if the board decided to move forward. My recommendation is, is that you actually hear from 517 00:55:34,665 --> 00:55:42,039 the people that and establish an actual record from people that historically have been 518 00:55:42,039 --> 00:55:46,310 utilizing it. Yeah, but what you're saying, the establishing of that record literally is 519 00:55:46,310 --> 00:55:52,549 that that's taking documents and taking. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't I don't go 520 00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:59,990 out there. I just literally say photographs or, you know, statements or that's where that 521 00:55:59,990 --> 00:56:05,095 establishing of a record would be taking documents from the public. Is that what you're 522 00:56:05,095 --> 00:56:09,099 saying? Yeah, that certainly would be the recommendation, Mike. Is that kind of what 523 00:56:09,099 --> 00:56:14,404 you're saying is, is have staff take a look at where, well, what we think and then have a 524 00:56:14,404 --> 00:56:21,545 public discussion where they're allowed to, where the public is allowed to come and, and begin 525 00:56:21,545 --> 00:56:27,718 to submit evidence to the county about what they think. I mean, because that's going to 526 00:56:27,718 --> 00:56:32,723 it appears that the public part of this is going to be a big part of this discussion. And 527 00:56:32,723 --> 00:56:37,027 they have, you know, anecdotal or documentable stories and histories out there for decades, 528 00:56:37,027 --> 00:56:43,000 I assume, is a reason that there is this passion about it. So they would have comments and 529 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:49,339 then they could potentially provide us documents of of things that they think are, you 530 00:56:49,339 --> 00:56:54,144 know, are why this has been customarily used. Is that kind of what you're saying? Well, 531 00:56:54,144 --> 00:56:58,849 yeah, I think that any public opinion on this is good for us to entertain before we go into 532 00:56:58,849 --> 00:57:06,957 any kind of ordinance change. But I also think what Tim said am I talk with legal one size 533 00:57:06,957 --> 00:57:12,062 doesn't have to fit all. I think we could get to a happy medium here, and it doesn't 534 00:57:12,062 --> 00:57:18,335 have to be everything. And I think that's how we start. So and that's, you know, talking 535 00:57:18,335 --> 00:57:23,540 with you and legal. That's what I've been told. So all right. So Madam Chair, so we're moving 536 00:57:23,540 --> 00:57:32,849 forward with the discussion on this on the 28th. Is that what. I'm sorry the 19th okay. So. 537 00:57:32,849 --> 00:57:39,256 Are you looking at you know, I, I don't know, I'm just I'm just kind of saying I mean, if 538 00:57:39,256 --> 00:57:44,294 people have things that they think are important, should we go ahead and say, let you know, 539 00:57:44,294 --> 00:57:47,431 let them start submitting whatever they think is important to Tim, or that's a 540 00:57:47,431 --> 00:57:54,538 question for Tim and Legal. What do you think I or legal, I guess, or whoever my 541 00:57:54,538 --> 00:57:58,742 recommendation would be? I'm sorry. Go ahead. Chairman. No, no, no, I would need to begin 542 00:57:58,742 --> 00:58:03,747 being the repository for something. I think you need to take public comment first. And 543 00:58:03,747 --> 00:58:10,988 you're doing that on the 19th. Okay. Before you guys come up with any sort of direction, I 544 00:58:10,988 --> 00:58:15,092 think. Does the public comment include these these things? Are you saying just the comment, 545 00:58:15,092 --> 00:58:20,998 just literally the the narrative oral you need to get? I would suggest you get public 546 00:58:20,998 --> 00:58:25,802 feedback before you guys direct where we're headed with this. And then you can certainly ask 547 00:58:25,802 --> 00:58:30,741 your staff to start, you know, if you want to be amassing a historical record. Some of what 548 00:58:30,741 --> 00:58:35,112 I think Commissioner Kohler is referring to is you don't want to end up with a patchwork 549 00:58:35,112 --> 00:58:38,949 quilt out there where you've got some areas where there's customary use and some areas 550 00:58:38,949 --> 00:58:43,053 where the public's not allowed to be, and some areas where you're allowed to have a towel 551 00:58:43,053 --> 00:58:47,958 but not an umbrella, and some areas where you can fish but not lay out. And some of that 552 00:58:47,958 --> 00:58:52,129 kind of thing has happened in Walton County. So I think what he's saying is send up a trial 553 00:58:52,129 --> 00:58:57,034 balloon and see if there are areas where this is not going to be disputed. And then then 554 00:58:57,034 --> 00:59:03,607 that's your, you know, your ground layer. I we'll see. I guess it it seems unlikely 555 00:59:03,607 --> 00:59:08,278 outside of maybe what Tim said or, you know, a commercial area, I mean, it seems. But you know, 556 00:59:08,278 --> 00:59:15,819 maybe, maybe, maybe that's possible. But the I mean, and I think that it would be good for 557 00:59:15,819 --> 00:59:22,659 the discussion on the 19th. I mean, I'm certainly no attorney, but I've been told that the 558 00:59:22,659 --> 00:59:27,097 issues are not the same as Walton County. I mean, it's not the same. So, I mean, I don't 559 00:59:27,097 --> 00:59:32,069 know that that's I agree, but perfect example of what could happen. I mean, you know, the 560 00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:36,973 county can and will be sued. You know, if not this week, next week for something. I mean, 561 00:59:36,973 --> 00:59:42,112 I mean, it's, you know, if you if you have a, if you have a pocketbook, you're going to be 562 00:59:42,112 --> 00:59:46,383 sued whether you're a business or an entity or, or whatever. I mean, a municipal organization, 563 00:59:46,383 --> 00:59:52,255 you're going to be sued for anything for any reason. So, I mean, we can't, you know, we we 564 00:59:52,255 --> 00:59:57,461 can't set policy and legislative actions out of, you know, avoid either do things or 565 00:59:57,461 --> 01:00:02,566 not do things out of fear. No, I agree that's that's not a good reason. But take the 566 01:00:02,566 --> 01:00:07,904 public comment on the 19th. And at that time, if members of the public want to contribute items 567 01:00:07,904 --> 01:00:14,678 or bring even items that they think help establish a historical record, I think we 568 01:00:14,678 --> 01:00:18,915 should absolutely be open to that. But I do think you need to open it to public comment 569 01:00:18,915 --> 01:00:22,352 before you guys provide direction. I think that is Florida's, you know, 570 01:00:22,352 --> 01:00:27,157 Participation Act requires that. I agree, and I think at a board meeting is better because then 571 01:00:27,157 --> 01:00:32,362 it's public record versus at a town hall. Commissioner May. Thank you, Madam Chair and 572 01:00:32,362 --> 01:00:38,869 commissioner and Commissioner, I think I do agree that, you know, we should have a public 573 01:00:38,869 --> 01:00:44,274 comment on the 19th, madam Chair, is that a meeting just solely for customary use, or is 574 01:00:44,274 --> 01:00:48,912 that going to be. No, sir. It's a regular board meeting. At our last board meeting, we decided 575 01:00:48,912 --> 01:00:53,316 that we would hear from the staff at this meeting. We would digest that information. The 576 01:00:53,316 --> 01:00:57,621 public would be able to digest that information, and then we would come back for a meeting 577 01:00:57,621 --> 01:01:02,726 with it being a discussion item on the 19th. And, Commissioner, I'll yield to you, because I've 578 01:01:02,726 --> 01:01:08,365 yielded to Jean Valentino, I've yielded to Doug Underhill because they should know the 579 01:01:08,365 --> 01:01:16,206 district. I would say to give this. It's right. I mean, to have it on the agenda with 580 01:01:16,206 --> 01:01:21,111 something else. It's it's going to be tough for it to get the attention that it needs. So if 581 01:01:21,111 --> 01:01:25,549 you want to do it on 19th with other things on the agenda or if you support it, calling a 582 01:01:25,549 --> 01:01:30,320 special board meeting where it would be on the record, I would support that. I've been pretty 583 01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:35,392 consistent in public access for me or where I am. I don't have to say a lot. I'm not going to 584 01:01:35,392 --> 01:01:40,430 say a lot. You know, there are a couple of things that God gives us. He gives us the land 585 01:01:40,430 --> 01:01:48,338 to see the fish, the water. And unfortunately, many people are limited access because of 586 01:01:48,338 --> 01:01:54,211 affordability of what they can afford. So I have a fresh memory of my parents being able 587 01:01:54,211 --> 01:01:59,416 to go to Johnson Beach for free and walk around in the old sands and maybe look up at 588 01:01:59,416 --> 01:02:02,586 condos that they could never afford or their children couldn't afford. So maybe the 589 01:02:02,586 --> 01:02:08,525 closest that they got to that water was that beach access. I recognize that we may be in 590 01:02:08,525 --> 01:02:16,800 lawsuits if I ever fail in my vote for anything, I'm going to fail on the side of supporting 591 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:23,373 public access. Whether it's any beach, there's it. Absolutely. It's not like Walton County 592 01:02:23,373 --> 01:02:28,011 Commissioner Biery we're not unique. You visit California and you go out there and you 593 01:02:28,011 --> 01:02:32,115 walk along the beach and you see the celebrities because they live in their condos. When 594 01:02:32,115 --> 01:02:37,354 you live downtown, such as I do, I the people walk on the sidewalks. We maintain those 595 01:02:37,354 --> 01:02:41,491 sidewalks. The county may put those sidewalks in, but we have to keep them old. We have to 596 01:02:41,491 --> 01:02:46,062 keep them cut. We have to keep them clean. That's if you want to say personal responsibility. 597 01:02:46,062 --> 01:02:49,833 There's there's some personal responsibility. If we talk about liability, as you said, 598 01:02:49,833 --> 01:02:55,205 Commissioner, we're going to get sued. I mean, 99% of the time when you pull a body out 599 01:02:55,205 --> 01:02:59,943 of the water that's drowned or injured or a shark bite, it's not the point of entry. It's 600 01:02:59,943 --> 01:03:04,848 the point of exit. So who's going to be liable where the where the point of entry or the 601 01:03:04,848 --> 01:03:09,019 point of exit when someone gets hurt? I mean, so it's not black and white, as you said, 602 01:03:09,019 --> 01:03:13,523 Commissioner Sternberg, it may be, you know, simple and hard, but whenever you have emotions 603 01:03:13,523 --> 01:03:18,328 and people involved in it, it's going to be hard because we have to make a legislative 604 01:03:18,328 --> 01:03:24,401 decision. We have to make a emotional decision, and we have to recognize and listen to all 605 01:03:24,401 --> 01:03:30,240 citizens. And so a couple questions for me, Tim, and then I'll be done. Because, you know, 606 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:35,078 this is certainly probably something that my colleagues up here all have more expertise 607 01:03:35,078 --> 01:03:41,484 than I do the original plat. Has anything changed? Who drew the from the treaty on who drew 608 01:03:41,484 --> 01:03:45,922 the original plat for these properties? Where, I mean, how far does it go back? The 609 01:03:45,922 --> 01:03:54,898 historical data of how the original plat was drawn. So I don't think I can answer that 610 01:03:54,898 --> 01:04:02,706 at the moment. I'm aware I believe there's some of them that was done in the 20s, the 611 01:04:02,706 --> 01:04:08,712 one where the easement is was US government lands. It was so when the treaty was signed and 612 01:04:08,712 --> 01:04:13,350 they dedicated the land, have we changed the plats from that? I mean, have have they been 613 01:04:13,350 --> 01:04:20,390 altered in any ways in the past of all the plats the same as they originally were back then? 614 01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:25,328 So it's my my presumption is there's been some additional subdivision that's occurred. 615 01:04:25,328 --> 01:04:30,700 You know, you had larger parcels that have become smaller parcels over time, but 616 01:04:30,700 --> 01:04:35,872 it's just I would feel more comfortable to go ahead and do a little more robust review of 617 01:04:35,872 --> 01:04:41,945 it. I believe Steve West, under a previous review, did a pretty deep dive. I just don't have it 618 01:04:41,945 --> 01:04:45,982 at my fingertips and that's fair enough. Thanks, Tim. I appreciate it. And I think, you 619 01:04:45,982 --> 01:04:50,820 know, Commissioner Kolody, I, I would agree with you if this was real easy and it could have 620 01:04:50,820 --> 01:04:57,360 been solved. It would have gotten solved probably. Many years ago. I mean, and so it 621 01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,498 has to be a conversation. I mean, it's a little convoluted. So I think that, you know, I 622 01:05:01,498 --> 01:05:05,735 appreciate Commissioner Barry saying, let's finally get this, you know, on, you know, the 623 01:05:05,735 --> 01:05:10,774 front of the agenda and get it solved. You represent that District commissioner. Haste 624 01:05:10,774 --> 01:05:16,646 makes waste. You know, I think we have to take our time and try and get it right and listen 625 01:05:16,646 --> 01:05:22,585 to all of the constituents and then listen to the strongest legal position we have, because 626 01:05:22,585 --> 01:05:28,124 a lawsuit is inevitable, but we should be yielding to our legal to say what puts us in the 627 01:05:28,124 --> 01:05:31,995 strongest position to preserve the people's money, particularly if we're going to 628 01:05:31,995 --> 01:05:36,699 be sued and utilize the people's money to fight this issue, which you'll be using 629 01:05:36,699 --> 01:05:42,772 all of the citizens money, not just certain citizens of the money. And so with that, I'll 630 01:05:42,772 --> 01:05:47,377 yield, because, I mean, we got to have public input. We got to have more debate. I hope that 631 01:05:47,377 --> 01:05:51,581 there's a compromise. I hope that there's a way in which, I mean, I know you can't vote in 632 01:05:51,581 --> 01:05:56,386 a public forum in a town hall meeting, but for me, it's always important for me to go 633 01:05:56,386 --> 01:06:02,192 listen to my constituents that I represent in those settings, to be able to come back and to 634 01:06:02,192 --> 01:06:10,834 advocate for them in the best way that I can. Knowing that negotiation and policy is about 635 01:06:10,834 --> 01:06:14,504 compromise, and that in some way we're going to have to find the compromise that best 636 01:06:14,504 --> 01:06:18,408 benefits all the citizens. Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner and then 637 01:06:18,408 --> 01:06:24,547 Commissioner Kohler. So I think we need to keep in mind that these are well defined private 638 01:06:24,547 --> 01:06:29,552 properties. The other thing is, you know, I say this all the time in my town halls. I said, 639 01:06:29,552 --> 01:06:34,524 I don't count hands. I don't count hands because it's not my control group. You know, the 640 01:06:34,524 --> 01:06:42,198 shirts don't make me change my mind. And we have been having communications. You've all been 641 01:06:42,198 --> 01:06:45,568 getting the emails that I've been getting. We've all been getting. So we've been we've 642 01:06:45,568 --> 01:06:51,541 been getting public input. This is the input I got just this morning. Connor printed it for 643 01:06:51,541 --> 01:06:58,348 me just this morning. You ran out of time and you ran out of paper. This is just. And this 644 01:06:58,348 --> 01:07:09,592 and all these are against customary use. All of them. Every single one of them. So I, 645 01:07:09,592 --> 01:07:16,032 I know that we're going to have more conversations and we're going to increase public access. 646 01:07:16,032 --> 01:07:21,638 Even in California. We live in the free state of Florida. Everywhere there's private 647 01:07:21,638 --> 01:07:29,445 property. And and I think that we need to guard that. Thanks, Commissioner Kohler. Yeah, I, I 648 01:07:29,445 --> 01:07:34,851 want to ask Christy a question because and I want to avoid lawsuits at all costs. I get it 649 01:07:34,851 --> 01:07:40,123 that sometimes they happen. But you cited that in Redington Beach on the 24th, the 11th 650 01:07:40,123 --> 01:07:45,194 circuit is going to have a decision potentially. How close is that related to what we're 651 01:07:45,194 --> 01:07:50,300 dealing with here? You didn't I just don't know. I mean, can you talk much about I know that 652 01:07:50,300 --> 01:07:54,571 hasn't been decided, but can you share a little bit more about that. Right. So currently 653 01:07:54,571 --> 01:08:00,610 the what's going up before on Redington Beach before the 11th circuit is Redington Beach has 654 01:08:00,610 --> 01:08:06,749 a customary use law. They did the they passed their ordinance prior. They passed their 655 01:08:06,749 --> 01:08:15,091 ordinance in the window of that 2018 statute that allowed them to use customary use as a 656 01:08:15,091 --> 01:08:20,396 affirmative defense, should they be sued. And they had witnesses that came forward 657 01:08:20,396 --> 01:08:27,837 that said, we used this beach up until somebody kicked us off. And so the court so it looks 658 01:08:27,837 --> 01:08:32,208 like that's going to so whenever that decision comes down, I don't have their 659 01:08:32,208 --> 01:08:37,280 arguments, the two arguments that are on each side. But that decision when it comes down 660 01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:42,819 will lend a lot of explanation. I'm hoping will lend some more explanation to these elements 661 01:08:42,819 --> 01:08:47,824 that I had up on the board for you. What does that how is that defined when you have a 662 01:08:47,824 --> 01:08:53,262 situation? And I have read many of the emails that that we've that a lot of the emails that 663 01:08:53,262 --> 01:08:58,267 come to you also come to me, they either get forwarded to me or I get copied or Alison will 664 01:08:58,267 --> 01:09:05,108 get copied. And so I see what the argument is on both sides. And I think maybe this will 665 01:09:05,108 --> 01:09:09,345 clarify some boundaries and some of the definitions, because I think since the court 666 01:09:09,345 --> 01:09:13,750 wasn't dealing with directly in the Supreme Court case, they didn't define what these things 667 01:09:13,750 --> 01:09:18,788 mean. And we've had to look at customary use as it goes back to the common law of England to 668 01:09:18,788 --> 01:09:23,426 understand it. And there really just wasn't that time this morning to go into that deep of 669 01:09:23,426 --> 01:09:28,564 an explanation. So I think that's going to answer some questions for us. I just don't 670 01:09:28,564 --> 01:09:32,935 until we have those answers. I would just be guessing. Well, that's good to know because 671 01:09:32,935 --> 01:09:37,774 that would consider precedent potentially in the state right, of what how we should deal with 672 01:09:37,774 --> 01:09:43,212 these issues. Right. And the state hasn't the state in some of the research I did, they 673 01:09:43,212 --> 01:09:48,618 decided not to not to set the customary use because they felt that that should be done per 674 01:09:48,618 --> 01:09:52,922 jurisdiction. It is a they they relied back on home rule and said each jurisdiction should 675 01:09:52,922 --> 01:10:00,963 make that decision. Okay. Well I'm very interested in that case. Thank you. 19 years going 676 01:10:00,963 --> 01:10:09,172 to be a discussion item that you want. To discuss it further meeting. So so we're able to 677 01:10:09,172 --> 01:10:14,243 speak as educated as possible with as much case law as possible. I'm just throwing 678 01:10:14,243 --> 01:10:19,649 this out there. Do we want to wait until after that comes down. So we have more 679 01:10:19,649 --> 01:10:24,887 information on on March 26th, we have a morning meeting. We could have a special meeting 680 01:10:24,887 --> 01:10:32,662 the evening of March 26th. I'm I'm with waiting for that to if there's a case like that 681 01:10:32,662 --> 01:10:38,634 because we want to do what's right. But at the same time we want to avoid lawsuits or get 682 01:10:38,634 --> 01:10:47,810 ahead of things we don't. I would say yes, sir. We don't know. We're going to still take 683 01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:51,781 public input on the 19th, whether we have it on the agenda or not. So there won't 684 01:10:51,781 --> 01:10:57,453 be any avoidance of a lawsuit. I mean, if we do this, we won't be avoiding it. We're on ahead. 685 01:10:57,453 --> 01:11:01,858 We're on a head on collision with it. We're not avoiding. But we have legal right now 686 01:11:01,858 --> 01:11:05,061 telling us that they're not completely prepared to give us the information. I understand, 687 01:11:05,061 --> 01:11:10,433 so you're saying, I mean, so we are going to get a lawsuit. I mean, I'm surely if we don't 688 01:11:10,433 --> 01:11:14,403 prevail, I'm going to get a lawsuit based on advice for, you know, because you know, 689 01:11:14,403 --> 01:11:18,274 who's going to point the fingers when it's all said and done? I mean, ultimately we get 690 01:11:18,274 --> 01:11:22,211 responsible for lawsuits, whether you serve on this board or not. I mean, we're going to 691 01:11:22,211 --> 01:11:26,983 get blamed for any lawsuit that happens. And so, you know, thank you. And I agree, when I 692 01:11:26,983 --> 01:11:31,954 say I want to avoid lawsuits, if it's something that I can say, take a step back and say, 693 01:11:31,954 --> 01:11:36,192 oh, I see the county over that. I would prefer not to move forward. And I think that's 694 01:11:36,192 --> 01:11:40,229 probably the lens that most of us look through this through. This is your district, and I 695 01:11:40,229 --> 01:11:44,367 want to make sure that we're respectful of that. What would be your preferred timeline on 696 01:11:44,367 --> 01:11:48,938 how we discuss this? I'm okay. I'm okay with the timeline everybody else wants. I'm I'm 697 01:11:48,938 --> 01:11:53,576 ready to talk about it. I don't know if any minds. Can you turn your mic on, please? Talk about 698 01:11:53,576 --> 01:11:59,415 this like your your mic. I don't know, I don't know if any minds will be changed between 699 01:11:59,415 --> 01:12:04,353 now and then. I have been trying to come up with some compromise with this. I've 700 01:12:04,353 --> 01:12:09,926 talked to. There's no compromise with the group in front of us. They they want 701 01:12:09,926 --> 01:12:15,298 customer use instituted. I've seen one interview from one end to the other end from one one 702 01:12:15,298 --> 01:12:22,338 from the park to the to the to the flora-bama. And it just I, I think that's an overreach. I 703 01:12:22,338 --> 01:12:28,878 think that's an overreach. We'll have that talk. We'll figure it out. But in the end, 704 01:12:28,878 --> 01:12:36,018 I just I think everyone's got to be a lot more respectful. No more damn fingers and all that 705 01:12:36,018 --> 01:12:43,292 stuff. I that really ticks me off. You know, my wife gave me a book a few months ago. This 706 01:12:43,292 --> 01:12:47,396 is the book. I brought it with me. It's called The Next Conversation. I don't know if 707 01:12:47,396 --> 01:12:53,269 any of the attorneys have read have read it. It's it's written by attorney. It's about verbal 708 01:12:53,269 --> 01:13:02,011 discipline and maybe also some physical discipline. And and to to to not get to the point 709 01:13:02,011 --> 01:13:07,717 where you can't have the next conversation. That's what we're going to next, the next 710 01:13:07,717 --> 01:13:14,490 conversation. So the outrage and the nonsense that goes on in the, you know, with the 711 01:13:14,490 --> 01:13:20,329 microphone mafia and those, those folks that doesn't get us to the next conversation. If 712 01:13:20,329 --> 01:13:25,768 you want to help and you want to come to a compromise and you need to find out what what a 713 01:13:25,768 --> 01:13:32,909 compromise is going to be for you to. All right. Thanks, Madam Chair, I just I know we 714 01:13:32,909 --> 01:13:36,879 can't make this decision tonight, but this is just as important to me. If we could 715 01:13:36,879 --> 01:13:42,685 add it on later tonight or next meeting, it doesn't matter. I would like the board to to put 716 01:13:42,685 --> 01:13:49,158 on the agenda to. If the board supports it. I don't know how the vote will happen, but we 717 01:13:49,158 --> 01:13:53,496 write the Department of Interior to change Johnson's Beach for a daily rate. I 718 01:13:53,496 --> 01:13:58,167 really would like to have that added at some point just to even start the momentum. I 719 01:13:58,167 --> 01:14:02,471 would agree. And then just to make it known, part of the big beautiful Bill does allow for 720 01:14:02,471 --> 01:14:07,877 free entry for military and veterans. 1 in 5 in our community has served in our 721 01:14:07,877 --> 01:14:11,914 military. So if you have that, you're eligible to enter those state parks for free. You just 722 01:14:11,914 --> 01:14:17,553 have to go to the website and download that and upload your ID to get that access. So my 723 01:14:17,553 --> 01:14:22,291 question is, and I do agree, we all have very passionate opinions about this. I like 724 01:14:22,291 --> 01:14:26,362 opinions that are backed by fact and case law. So I think that it would behoove us to 725 01:14:26,362 --> 01:14:31,534 wait until that case law comes down on the 24th. Do you want to have a special meeting just 726 01:14:31,534 --> 01:14:40,409 for. This is my question. We might need. This is just a a small percentage of the people 727 01:14:40,409 --> 01:14:44,513 that are going to show up. I mean, people people can't even speak today and they're here. 728 01:14:44,513 --> 01:14:48,584 So obviously they're concerned. I mean, that's going to be a pretty long meeting. So we 729 01:14:48,584 --> 01:14:53,522 everyone deserves a chance on the 26th. Do you want to have a special evening meeting on the 730 01:14:53,522 --> 01:14:58,661 26th of March? If I can just I just want to make it clear that just because the oral arguments 731 01:14:58,661 --> 01:15:03,466 are on the 24th does not mean we're going to get a written opinion on the 24th. So we 732 01:15:03,466 --> 01:15:08,304 can't control when that would happen. You've seen how courts are. They could sit on it for a 733 01:15:08,304 --> 01:15:14,410 week or a year. So I don't want to assume that we're going to be we may or may not know. Most 734 01:15:14,410 --> 01:15:23,152 likely we will not know on the 24th how they rule. It would be just like. Okay, so we'll we'll 735 01:15:23,152 --> 01:15:28,124 proceed as scheduled. Okay. Just so it's on everyone else's radar and related to this, but 736 01:15:28,124 --> 01:15:33,029 we do need to have a joint meeting with the city. So Jose will be reaching out for dates 737 01:15:33,029 --> 01:15:37,299 on that. All right, madam. Madam chair, I do have an item that's going to be added to the 738 01:15:37,299 --> 01:15:43,239 agenda tonight. It's only it's an appointment to a board, so just FYI. Yes, sir. Thank you. 739 01:15:43,239 --> 01:16:01,509 Is there any other discussion on customary use or any questions fo