[0:00] You're right.
[0:00] >> We welcome you to the Provo Municipal
[0:02] Council work meeting. It is March 24th,
[0:05] 2026 and it's 1:01 p.m.
[0:09] Uh we will do a roll call starting with
[0:12] Council Rachel Wiffle. Rachel Wiffle.
[0:14] Becky Bogden. Katrice MacKay. Brady
[0:16] Christensen. Jeff Whelock. Gary Garrett.
[0:20] All right. Um although this is a public
[0:22] meeting, only the presenters and those
[0:23] invited by the council may ask or speak.
[0:26] May speak or ask questions. Unless
[0:28] otherwise invited by the chair. Please
[0:29] wait to speak until called upon by the
[0:31] council chair. When speaking, please be
[0:33] sure to use the microphone so that the
[0:34] record is clear and those attending
[0:35] virtually can hear you.
[0:37] Please also be sure to limit side
[0:38] conversations as they interfere with the
[0:40] audio recording. If you need to have a
[0:42] side conversation, please step out of
[0:43] the work meeting room. It is proposed
[0:45] that we approve the following minutes.
[0:47] March 10th, 2026 work meeting. Are there
[0:50] any objections or requested changes?
[0:53] Just one change.
[0:55] Um
[0:56] I have a brother named Greg, so I'm very
[0:58] used to this, but it said Greg Garrett
[1:01] on the attendance, yeah.
[1:04] Oh, the minutes.
[1:05] It was actually me, not Greg.
[1:08] Is he a twin?
[1:09] Hm? Is he a twin? No.
[1:14] Seeing no, okay, we'll make those
[1:15] changes. I'll fix your name. Thank you.
[1:18] And we'll declare that the minutes are
[1:19] approved by unanimous consent.
[1:22] All right, our first item of business is
[1:23] a presentation regarding the proposed
[1:25] redevelopment of the Provo Town Center
[1:28] site into a mixed-use transit-oriented
[1:31] district. And this will be presented by
[1:33] Robert Schmidt, development director of
[1:34] PEG Companies, and Justin Long, project
[1:36] executive for Brixton.
[1:41] And we have about 60 minutes for this
[1:43] discussion.
[1:45] We'll try this. You're right to the
[1:47] front there.
[1:49] And if you have extra people who want to
[1:50] stay back here and talk for a bit, we
[1:52] can use
[1:54] Who's uh
[1:56] Sandy to Smith or Sides? Is it Sides? I
[1:59] have two sets of slides here. So let me
[2:01] know if this is the one you want to use.
[2:03] If you have not, I have another one.
[2:07] You should have a clicker.
[2:09] Yeah, I think all the other ones are
[2:11] just real quick. Okay, I'll do the other
[2:13] one
[2:14] and you can use that clicker up there
[2:15] and that will control the slides.
[2:20] Uh the other the other one was it.
[2:24] I got you only got these two.
[2:27] sets of slides.
[2:29] >> the one that's This is the one. Okay,
[2:30] good.
[2:32] All right, good afternoon. My name is
[2:33] Robert Schmidt, managing director of
[2:35] development of PEG Companies
[2:37] here in Provo. We're a Provo company,
[2:38] been here for in Provo for 15 years, but
[2:41] we were actually founded my first office
[2:43] building was in the Knight Block
[2:44] building on the third floor. So we've
[2:46] been here a while. Done several projects
[2:48] in town.
[2:49] You may be familiar with those.
[2:51] And we're happy to be here to talk about
[2:53] the Provo Town Center Mall project.
[2:55] We're partnered with Brixton Capital.
[2:57] Justin Long is here today with me and
[2:59] he'll be
[3:00] going through much of the presentation.
[3:03] Really what we want to talk about here
[3:04] today
[3:05] are uh
[3:06] process that we're in and the next steps
[3:09] that need to be taken to continue
[3:10] advancing this project to to bring it to
[3:13] a successful
[3:14] uh successful start
[3:17] and eventually successful completion.
[3:19] Um we've made application to the city
[3:22] for a rezone which involves a a text
[3:25] amendment to
[3:26] the ITOD zone
[3:28] to amend the general plan and to rezone
[3:33] the north end of the mall to an ITOD
[3:35] zone and we'll get into specifics about
[3:37] that. Uh attached to the the rezone
[3:39] request is a conceptual site plan.
[3:41] So today I think we'll start with
[3:43] Justin. He'll walk through the
[3:44] conceptual site plan. We'll kind of
[3:45] start at the site plan first and then
[3:47] we'll come back to some of the specifics
[3:50] uh, rezone request. Um in addition to
[3:52] the rezone,
[3:54] um, we also have a an HTARZ request in
[3:58] process with the city. The HTARZ is the
[4:00] Housing Transit Reinvestment Zone.
[4:03] It's a, uh, a TIF tool, basically tax
[4:06] increment financing tool, um, to help
[4:08] projects get over the hump, uh, of, you
[4:11] know, big projects that require major
[4:13] infrastructure to help them get over the
[4:15] hump to make them feasible. So, we'll
[4:16] talk about that, uh, a bit as well.
[4:18] We've got Ben,
[4:19] um,
[4:21] A. E. Davidson.
[4:21] >> What the A. Davidson Last name, sorry,
[4:23] Ben? Wilhelm. Wilhelm, sorry. I wanted
[4:25] to say Zeglin. Ben Wilhelm with the A.
[4:26] Davidson, uh, here with us as well. And,
[4:29] uh, he can talk through some of the
[4:30] HTARZ specifics as we get into that. We
[4:32] also have Kyle Goodat with Brixen
[4:34] Capital and, uh, Tyler Phelps with PEG.
[4:36] So, Justin.
[4:40] Thanks very much. We're, uh, pleased to
[4:42] be in front of you and presenting,
[4:44] excuse me, this concept and
[4:46] I think Robert, you introduced PEG and
[4:48] they've been a fantastic partner. We're
[4:49] thrilled to have them, um, on the
[4:51] project. They do extremely high-quality
[4:53] development on the multi-family side and
[4:55] we see that as a, obviously, a good,
[4:56] crucial component of the overall site
[4:58] plan here to making this successful and
[5:00] we're we're thrilled. They've been
[5:01] excellent partners to this and, you
[5:03] know, they'll continue to be, um, adding
[5:05] value through the process. So, um, as
[5:07] I'm sure most of you know,
[5:09] um,
[5:10] here's our
[5:11] mall here. It's
[5:13] not been as successful, I think, from a
[5:15] footfall standpoint as we'd like it to
[5:17] be in a number of years and we see that
[5:19] it needs to be reinvented. Uh, you know,
[5:22] this is not unique to Provo Town Center.
[5:24] That's kind of where I want to start.
[5:25] This is a secular shift that's happening
[5:27] across the country. Uh, in indoor malls
[5:30] are having challenges kind of no matter
[5:32] where they are. And the vast majority of
[5:34] those, uh, will need to become something
[5:37] else in the future. I saw an estimate
[5:38] the other day as high as 80% of current
[5:41] indoor malls will no longer be malls in
[5:44] 15 plus years. This is happening all
[5:46] around the world, excuse me, around the
[5:49] country.
[5:51] And the results of that have
[5:53] kind of been the tale of the tape here.
[5:56] On the left is the um
[5:59] annual sales tax receipts
[6:02] prior to today and on the right and red
[6:05] you can see kind of where we see things
[6:06] going without sort of re- reimagining
[6:08] what the future of the campus really
[6:10] needs to be. I mean, it's not a good
[6:12] asset currently for the community from a um placemaking
[6:17] standpoint, a business standpoint, or
[6:19] really from a revenue generation
[6:20] standpoint. So,
[6:22] we'd like to
[6:24] bring this into the 21st century.
[6:26] S- A lot of you all Kyle and I live this
[6:29] every day, so we have to deal with these
[6:31] challenges on a daily basis, but for
[6:33] those that aren't really familiar with
[6:34] what the challenges associated with
[6:35] malls are and why they're extremely hard
[6:38] to redevelop, and this is just sort of a
[6:40] high-level uh categorization of the
[6:42] things that create problems as we uh try
[6:45] to engage with the core partners and
[6:46] stakeholders in reimagining these kinds
[6:49] of assets.
[6:51] Typically, these land agreements are in
[6:53] this that govern how these assets work.
[6:55] So, things like parking and access and
[6:57] who can go where and who can build what
[6:59] where. Um those have to have um
[7:03] extremely detailed negotiations. In this
[7:05] case, it went on for many years uh on
[7:07] how to unlock the potential because the
[7:10] partners that are part of that agreement
[7:12] are often the key partners that are on
[7:13] the site, people like J.C. Penney's, um
[7:16] Cinemark, uh you know, now Target, all
[7:19] those kind of major players that are
[7:21] retailers have their own business needs
[7:23] that they're obviously concentrating on.
[7:24] They want to make sure those aren't
[7:25] negatively affected by whatever's going
[7:27] to happen going forward. So, that that's
[7:28] a major component that ties in with the
[7:30] anchor tenant rights just depending on
[7:31] whether they lease or actually own the
[7:33] ground. Uh but those are the same kinds
[7:34] of conversations. But the fact that
[7:36] there's typically multiple ownership
[7:38] groups, so when we when Brixton Capital
[7:40] acquired the property,
[7:42] the as some of you may or may not know,
[7:44] Dillard's actually used to own their
[7:45] building and the land around their
[7:47] building over time. And with the Target
[7:48] project, we were able to acquire their
[7:50] interest, which streamlined that
[7:52] approval process with them.
[7:54] But often that's a major hurdle, and it
[7:55] was in this case until we took that off
[7:58] the table with that acquisition.
[8:00] Uh cross parking cross access easements.
[8:02] And then, you know, the final one and
[8:03] not one that's insignificant is, you
[8:05] know, there's existing businesses that
[8:06] are in
[8:08] operating today. Whether it's Rue 21 or
[8:10] some of the temporary tenants, those are
[8:11] all obviously people that need to be uh
[8:14] talked to and figured out how to
[8:15] transition them to an alternative
[8:17] location, and in some cases relocate
[8:20] them into the uh the project and a
[8:22] different configuration. So, those are
[8:23] all challenges that we have to work through. This is a graphic that
[8:28] I think helps illustrate
[8:30] uh for Provo Town Center how these
[8:32] challenges manifest themselves. So,
[8:35] all of the boxes in red are the key
[8:36] anchor tenants that have to approve any
[8:39] of the components of any changes in
[8:42] development. So, you've got
[8:44] uh so, like I said, Cinemark, JCPenney,
[8:46] and Target. And then, in purple here,
[8:48] you each one of those parking lots
[8:51] has major controls that are dictated by
[8:55] either one or all, in some cases, of
[8:57] those anchor tenants. So, again, some of
[9:00] the challenges we have to work through
[9:01] as we
[9:02] try to create a new vision for what we
[9:04] believe the project should be going
[9:06] forward.
[9:08] So, just to hit real quick, I won't
[9:10] spend a lot of time on this, but as I
[9:11] mentioned, you know, we were able to
[9:12] acquire the Dillard's interest. We were
[9:14] able to bring Target into the project,
[9:16] which was a massive uh validation of the
[9:18] quality of the the real estate and the
[9:20] and a first domino for us to fall, and
[9:22] we think there's a lot of momentum there
[9:23] that we'd like to ride into the next uh
[9:26] phase of the project. And we see that as
[9:29] a before and after. On the right, you
[9:31] can see that it's an entirely enclosed
[9:33] indoor mall shifting to an
[9:35] exterior-oriented
[9:37] mixed-use walkable environment is the
[9:40] vision.
[9:42] So, I'd like to do play our video. Yeah,
[9:45] I think it Yeah, so Okay.
[9:50] I was wondering what this video was.
[9:52] It's actually really cool.
[9:55] So, let the video play. It's not, you
[9:57] know, it's not perfect. It was done a
[9:58] little while ago for some details um
[10:02] change in the plans, but it overall
[10:04] gives you a really good sense of what
[10:06] the walkable mixed-use um higher density
[10:09] vision for the project uh is intended to
[10:11] be.
[10:27] If we're able to kill this, nobody's
[10:29] killing it.
[10:34] Doesn't get any better.
[10:35] Um Wait, I'll talk about the buildings.
[10:39] So, the intent the intent here is to
[10:42] bring the vehicles and and the customers
[10:45] into the center of the new plaza
[10:48] and create a lot of energy as the nexus
[10:50] there around which everything can can
[10:53] pivot. On the left or in front of us, I
[10:55] should say, is the reconfigured mall.
[10:58] It's important to note that the
[10:59] buildings that you see right here are
[11:00] actually part of the malls. So, we're
[11:02] taking the existing mall structure and
[11:03] we're turning it reorienting it inside
[11:06] out. So, we're not just tearing
[11:08] something down and building something
[11:09] new. We're doing our best to try to use
[11:10] the existing infrastructure as best we
[11:12] can to facilitate uh this new vision.
[11:16] It's really centered around amenity-rich
[11:18] plaza area. We want to bring vehicles in
[11:21] and through and allow for convenient
[11:22] access and parking. We've got bicycle
[11:25] lanes that are designed in here that
[11:26] we'll see and highlight a little bit
[11:28] later. Um
[11:30] we've narrowed the scope of the retail,
[11:32] the small shop retail as you can see
[11:34] here everything on the lower level is
[11:36] intended to be that retail. What do you
[11:39] mean? Just smaller stores as opposed to
[11:41] big anchor stores? Yeah, just we've
[11:43] reduced the amount of small shop retail
[11:45] square footage. So today, we'll get to
[11:47] this in a minute. We have there's a
[11:49] tremendous amount of small shop retail
[11:51] interior facing space. And the scale was
[11:55] just unsustainable in today's world like
[11:57] from a lease-ability I mean it's
[11:58] standpoint. So we've reduced that to
[12:01] what we believe is productive leasable
[12:04] long-term sustainable space. It's all
[12:06] centered around an environment that
[12:07] people are actually going to want to
[12:08] spend time
[12:16] So you can pause it right there for a
[12:18] second.
[12:19] That's okay. I I've got a That's okay.
[12:20] I've got a slide in my space. Sure.
[12:24] So just jumping into the site plan
[12:26] because you can't see all the little
[12:27] details just through one fly-through but
[12:30] I'll be able to point to the screen.
[12:33] Each touch round screen.
[12:35] Touch.
[12:38] Oh yeah, you can you can paint on the
[12:40] screen with your finger. Oh perfect.
[12:42] Okay. So this if you remember this is a
[12:45] two-level mall. So we're looking at the
[12:47] lower level plan right now.
[12:49] So the food court entrance would be
[12:51] somewhere around here today just to
[12:52] orient you.
[12:54] There you go.
[12:55] So
[12:56] all the anchors are planned the same
[12:58] place.
[12:59] We demolish what's currently the Sears
[13:02] or the old Sears box goes away to make
[13:04] way for a part of the multi-family as
[13:07] well as the new road configuration
[13:09] coming in and through it.
[13:11] Create this amenity plaza which we'll
[13:13] get to some of the details of in a
[13:14] minute. Surrounded by
[13:17] smaller shop oriented retail.
[13:20] And the bulk of what's now the interior
[13:23] wall on the lower level if you'll recall
[13:25] Cinemark today has parking underneath
[13:28] it. So, it's covered parking. The intent
[13:30] is that you would extend that covered
[13:32] parking into what's today part of the
[13:34] interior mall to just provide more
[13:36] convenient covered parking. It's
[13:38] proximate to both the JCPenney's,
[13:40] Cinemark, as well as the spot of the
[13:42] It's going to be like a really nice
[13:43] high-quality parking for people. It'll
[13:45] get used multiple times a day.
[13:47] And then we also have a retailer front
[13:50] entrance here
[13:51] as well as on the lower level of Target.
[13:54] So, you're hoping to have another big
[13:56] box retailer there? Is that what that's
[13:58] for? Yes.
[13:59] so
[14:00] >> to the interior parking is through the
[14:02] existing Cinemark parking? That's right.
[14:04] So, you would be driving in the way of
[14:05] existing parking and you would continue
[14:06] down here. You won't even realize it's
[14:08] separate parking.
[14:09] >> Okay, so the only way you get into it is
[14:11] from the mall. That's correct. Yes.
[14:15] So,
[14:15] >> From the west. From the west. From the west. Yes,
[14:18] sir. I'm yes. But yes, the I knew it
[14:20] would be a retailer here, the lower
[14:23] level of Target's right here where the
[14:25] back house is.
[14:26] And then there's two more opportunities.
[14:28] Again, facing this way is the entrance
[14:30] for multiple, we'll call box retailers.
[14:33] >> Oh, there is? Yes. I thought you had
[14:35] like warehouse stuff there. So, only
[14:37] about a third of this lower level of
[14:38] what used to be Dillard's
[14:40] is taken up by a Target's logistics.
[14:43] Okay.
[14:43] >> There's another 70-ish thousand square
[14:45] feet that there's opportunity for more
[14:47] retail.
[14:47] >> Oh, good. Yes.
[14:52] Now, are have you been talking to
[14:53] anyone? Like are there any names on the
[14:55] table? We certainly have, but I I'll
[14:58] tell you from personal experience in
[14:59] these conversations, the first question
[15:01] they ask is, "What's happening with the
[15:03] rest of the mall?"
[15:04] Cuz they're not willing to go into their
[15:06] committee and stand in front of their
[15:07] executives and say, "Yeah, we should
[15:08] really go here, but yeah, we know we're
[15:10] next to a dead mall and there's no real
[15:12] plan for it."
[15:13] So, we've had a lot of interest and we
[15:14] think we've shown this, you know,
[15:18] quietly to some folks and said, "Hey, is
[15:19] this interesting to you?" And every one
[15:20] of them says, "Yeah, this is great. It's
[15:22] the type of thing we would to sign up
[15:23] for, but let us know when you're ready
[15:25] to go."
[15:28] So, moving to the second level, uh
[15:30] this is the entrance to the parking
[15:32] garage just to orient you again on which
[15:33] level we're on. So, second level target
[15:35] entrance is here. This is shown as this
[15:37] is basically commercial space. It's a
[15:38] lighter blue. It could really be a mix
[15:40] of a variety of commercial uses. We've
[15:42] talked about some retail. We talked
[15:44] about um
[15:45] uh some like higher density office.
[15:48] We've talked about uh medical offices.
[15:49] There's a variety of different
[15:50] commercial level uses that works for in
[15:52] here. And you can see the aqua color is
[15:55] more of the I'll call it co-working or
[15:57] smaller density um office suites on the
[16:00] second level just because in most places
[16:03] second level retail struggles pretty
[16:04] significantly. So, doing a more
[16:06] sustainable use on that second level is the vision we see.
[16:09] Uh another thing to point out here is
[16:12] so, the entrance that you walk in today
[16:15] to on the second level on that upper
[16:16] level parking, walk in the second level
[16:19] mall entrance here, you walk into the
[16:21] front of Cinemark there.
[16:23] That same path of travel will basically
[16:25] still be intact. This parking will allow
[16:28] for entrance right through there. Can I
[16:30] clarify here? Can I clear that? I can
[16:32] clear it for you. Thank you.
[16:35] Oh.
[16:36] So, you see a little hallway there for
[16:38] lack of better term. It's it's really a
[16:40] entrance.
[16:41] Um and we're going to reconfigure where
[16:42] the lobby actually is. It will be pulled
[16:44] in a little bit. You'll essentially, if
[16:46] you're a customer for Cinemark, you'll
[16:47] take the same path of travel you have
[16:49] been.
[16:51] But you'll be
[16:54] It's really the first level the second
[16:56] level you're coming in at though, right?
[16:58] That's right. So, if you park So, if you
[16:59] park here, this is second level. Yeah,
[17:02] it's upper. If you come in and park
[17:04] under the Cinemark, you just go up these
[17:06] escalators there right there and be at
[17:08] their front entrance.
[17:09] So, the escalators are staying.
[17:12] Uh there will be escalators. They won't
[17:13] be the same ones, but yes, there will be
[17:15] escalators. Yes. They'll be positioned.
[17:17] So that darker blue section there, you
[17:20] said it's going to be like co-shared
[17:21] office space on the second Yeah,
[17:22] co-working, smaller office, yes. And
[17:24] that's the second level. That's correct.
[17:26] So when I walk in and go see a movie, I
[17:29] also see that co-working shared space as
[17:31] well, right? In the hallway? Uh if you
[17:33] keep walking, there's a there's a
[17:35] exterior pathway here. So if you kept
[17:38] walking past the entrance for the
[17:40] You could.
[17:42] But there can be like no indoor of
[17:45] connection, is what you're saying.
[17:47] The Cinemark entrance is going to be a
[17:49] Cinemark entrance. That's correct.
[17:51] And then the co-working entrance is
[17:52] going to be a co-working entrance. Then
[17:54] you're going to have a walking path that
[17:55] also for the light rail.
[17:57] Yeah, and
[17:58] so right here we would get into the
[18:00] hotel plan, but right here, that's where
[18:02] the elevator and the stair core is to
[18:05] get from
[18:08] this level here
[18:10] up.
[18:11] So you were parking, let's say, in that
[18:13] parking covered parking area, you could
[18:15] walk right there, here's the elevator.
[18:17] Remind me again what that orange is
[18:18] underneath the dark blue.
[18:20] I'm sorry? Remind me again what that
[18:21] orange is on the first level. Okay.
[18:24] Uh retail.
[18:25] Okay, so you have three retail
[18:26] >> box retail. Small box retail that will
[18:29] have an elevator and an escalator that
[18:30] goes up to the second floor with the
[18:32] co-working space.
[18:33] >> So this is all exterior facing around
[18:34] the plaza. There's a small lobby here
[18:37] that provides covered
[18:39] actually access between the plaza, the
[18:42] entrance to J.C. Penney's, and this
[18:43] extended covered parking area.
[18:46] So all that feeds into this lobby, and
[18:48] in that lobby is where that elevator
[18:50] would be.
[18:54] So on the second back to the second
[18:56] level.
[18:58] So that blue is all external facing.
[19:01] Second level. Yes. Yeah, it's a little
[19:03] hard to see. I can run We can run the
[19:05] video back, and you'll see that there's
[19:06] a covered walkway just in front of that.
[19:08] >> that. That was nice. So it is covered
[19:10] >> That's correct. on the walkway.
[19:11] >> So all any of those entrances will just
[19:12] open up to that covered walkway there.
[19:14] And how many levels are there all
[19:16] together? Two.
[19:17] There's just two levels, period.
[19:19] Correct.
[19:20] And Hazel keeps both of those
[19:21] >> Well, on the commercial side, the
[19:23] residential is
[19:25] Uh five, right? Oh, yeah, we're just
[19:27] talking about the mall. Yeah, just just
[19:29] on the commercial side, yeah.
[19:31] And Hazel still has the two levels.
[19:33] That's correct.
[19:36] Yeah, so other than To answer that
[19:38] question, JCPenney's basically nothing
[19:40] changes about their store itself. We'll make sure to reorient exactly how
[19:44] it is.
[19:45] Okay, including
[19:46] >> Lobby area.
[19:47] Including all the stores, restaurants,
[19:49] entertainment, how many
[19:53] businesses were you going to have add?
[19:55] That's a tough question to answer. You
[19:56] don't have a number?
[19:58] Well,
[19:59] because it depends on the size of what
[20:00] you're
[20:01] >> on the size, right? You could have one
[20:02] really
[20:02] >> So, you have square footage. Yeah, I'll
[20:04] go to This will answer that question
[20:06] later.
[20:07] So, here is the square footage today.
[20:09] Almost a million square feet. That
[20:11] includes Sears, includes all the
[20:13] interior malls that are really not
[20:14] non-productive space, right? But at the
[20:16] end, so the anchors are going to say,
[20:19] "We're adding this is the 110,000 square
[20:20] feet you're asking before about box
[20:22] retail."
[20:23] Uh 42,000 square feet of retail, another
[20:26] 100,000 square feet of commercial space,
[20:27] and then about 20,000 in that
[20:29] co-working. So, at the end of the day,
[20:31] we're reducing the overall square
[20:33] footage by about 300,000, but we're
[20:34] massively increasing the product
[20:36] productivity of everything that's left,
[20:38] right? So, we're getting rid of all that
[20:40] interior mall space that's been very
[20:42] difficult to to fill and it's just too
[20:45] much for the ecosystem of retail that
[20:47] exists today. Same with Sears, and we're
[20:49] converting it to something that is
[20:50] mixed-use, walkable, and very productive
[20:53] from a a retail standpoint and a
[20:54] commercial use standpoint.
[20:56] So, your existing anchors, you're
[20:58] decreasing a ton.
[21:01] Considering the Cinemark was 781.
[21:04] That's correct. That That's correct.
[21:06] Okay.
[21:07] Yeah, there I think it's 81. Okay.
[21:11] Like, wait a minute.
[21:13] Yeah, so this the existing anchors
[21:16] basically the only thing going away from
[21:17] an anchor square footage standpoint is
[21:19] Sears, which no longer is operating
[21:21] anyway. So.
[21:24] And where you got Dillard's, is that
[21:25] actually Target now? That's Well, yeah,
[21:28] that represents both square footage both
[21:30] levels of Dillard's. I'm sorry, both
[21:32] levels of Dillard's, but 130,000 of that
[21:35] is already backfilled with Target.
[21:42] Any other quick questions about that
[21:44] one?
[21:48] So, one thing I want to highlight and
[21:49] this this came up a couple different
[21:51] times through various conversations was
[21:53] it's hard to kind of imagine scale
[21:56] of of what we're talking about here from
[21:57] a plaza standpoint. So, we wanted to
[22:00] show this is 1.7 acres of total space.
[22:03] So, in a scenario where
[22:05] you know, we have this flexible
[22:07] community space that you could shut down
[22:08] from time to time, do farmers markets,
[22:09] or any sort of events similar to what
[22:11] the mall does today. This is a very
[22:14] substantial space. It's actually
[22:17] significantly bigger than the lawn space
[22:20] that's on the Is that north side of
[22:22] Orem? Uh of University Mall. And so, we
[22:27] just wanted to kind of show that what
[22:28] we're we're talking about here is not
[22:29] just some kind of throwaway. It's a
[22:31] plaza that sits in the in the you know,
[22:33] middle of this, but it's not really a
[22:34] dynamic space for people to to
[22:36] congregate in. This is a really
[22:37] substantive space here that can be used
[22:40] for these kind of events, but also when
[22:42] they're not Oh, here it is. So, 95,000
[22:45] versus 70,000 is is the direct
[22:47] >> backwards, right? That picture.
[22:50] Which one?
[22:51] Oh.
[22:53] No, that one's right. You had a before
[22:54] and after picture in your slides that
[22:55] were wrong or backwards. Oh.
[22:58] But,
[22:59] sorry. Go ahead.
[23:00] So, again, that 1.7 on the left and then
[23:04] it's What is that? An acre and
[23:07] third or fourth
[23:09] uh on the right. And
[23:10] >> Councilor Whipple has a question. Oh,
[23:12] sure. So,
[23:13] I I like that it's a larger space, but
[23:16] it's just
[23:18] really confusing to me that your main
[23:21] road of path goes right through that.
[23:24] So, if you are doing events, people
[23:27] like you're you're closing off that that
[23:29] roundabout, but that's the main way to
[23:31] get up to the north where your parking
[23:33] is and everything else.
[23:34] >> To the west. Like what? Oh, sorry, west.
[23:37] Oh my gosh, thank you, Becky. But
[23:41] You know how that roundabout works?
[23:42] >> It's just
[23:45] it's hard for me to make sense of having
[23:48] the roundabout as like the core of the
[23:52] plaza. Is it because you feel like you
[23:53] need to have cars driving by there most
[23:55] of the rest of the time to drive traffic
[23:57] or
[23:58] >> Yeah, retail will not be successful in
[24:00] today's environment unless we bring the
[24:02] cars into the
[24:04] >> even like go directly to the parking lot
[24:07] from that roundabout. Like they're still
[24:08] going up and around.
[24:10] >> They want to see it. They want to drive
[24:11] around and see what's there. They Yeah.
[24:13] Yep. Okay. Yeah, I mean,
[24:15] it's an unfortunate reality that
[24:17] retailers when they when they look at a
[24:18] site plan, they say, "Where's my
[24:20] visibility? Where's my access? Where's the proximate parking?" That's
[24:23] what they look at.
[24:24] >> to have the visibility of driving by
[24:26] separate from the access of you can't
[24:29] just get to the parking lot from that
[24:31] visible drive.
[24:32] >> Yes, and for a couple different reasons.
[24:34] Uh
[24:39] I do think it's silly that we have
[24:41] amenities in the middle of the
[24:43] roundabout, though.
[24:45] Oh, retail In the circle. That looks
[24:46] ridiculous.
[24:48] Yeah, I agree with you. That's That's
[24:50] something that's not
[24:52] That's why it's not really highlighted
[24:53] in the
[24:54] That's why it's not That's why it's not
[24:55] really It's kind of an old design.
[24:57] But to to answer to answer the question
[25:01] So I think part of the answer is the way
[25:02] that the phasing on the multi-family
[25:04] works.
[25:05] So the phasing is these top phases over
[25:08] here are anticipated to be phase one.
[25:10] And then these phases down here will be
[25:11] two or two or three, whatever it ends up
[25:13] being broken out. These middle phases
[25:15] are anticipated to be the last phase.
[25:17] And the reason for that is we want to
[25:19] provide at least from all this parking
[25:21] remains surface parking until the next
[25:24] phase of multi-family development comes
[25:26] along and gets converted. That allows
[25:28] for a very long time frame for people to
[25:32] uh
[25:32] one sort of learn what the new routes
[25:35] are, where the stores are, what their
[25:36] path travel is, where they should park,
[25:39] um while they still have all this
[25:41] you know, unused surface parking that
[25:43] they can rely on to park here and come
[25:46] to these stores. Uh the second thing is
[25:49] um
[25:50] the question was access, why is there
[25:52] access and then um parking severance,
[25:54] all right?
[25:56] Yeah, because that you can't just turn
[25:59] and get into the parking structure
[26:00] there.
[26:01] Right. So there will So there will be
[26:03] parking available in this area for many, years. And people will learn first
[26:09] of this becomes really prime parking
[26:11] here. This is all very prime parking
[26:13] here. This is prime parking here. So
[26:15] there will remain a lot of parking
[26:17] options for people and as they continue
[26:19] to use the the site, they'll continue to
[26:22] you know, navigate and learn where they
[26:23] prefer to park.
[26:24] already prime. Like it's full every
[26:26] weekend with people here. Yeah.
[26:32] I I just it it still feels odd to me
[26:34] that anytime you have an event, you
[26:37] would be closing down that roundabout
[26:39] because it really does look like the
[26:40] main
[26:42] I'll tell you that that's that's kind of
[26:44] a um
[26:45] best practice is frankly for some of the
[26:47] best retail in the country. Right? Think
[26:50] of Friendly Center Town Center as one
[26:51] where we used to have a slide that we
[26:52] just didn't include today.
[26:54] It shuts down their main entrance. They
[26:56] frankly have a lot more
[26:58] um
[26:59] artificial congestion cuz they don't
[27:01] have these alternate you know, paths of
[27:03] travel that we necessarily have here.
[27:05] Um Kierland Commons is another one that
[27:07] does it commonly. They They shut down,
[27:09] you know, their center area for events
[27:11] all the time, which is the main kind of
[27:12] thoroughfare to get people, but they
[27:14] have an opportunity for people to get
[27:15] around again, similar to this, a kind of
[27:17] an alternative route to go around.
[27:19] Project leads to the various parking
[27:20] areas. So, I mean, it it works well and I would also say that, you know,
[27:24] it's not like events are happening
[27:27] daily or anything of it. We're really
[27:28] talking about community events that
[27:30] happen,
[27:31] you know, on occasion. Yeah. Well, cuz
[27:33] the Forum one, they have events there at
[27:35] least once a month
[27:37] at their their little park. So, that
[27:39] would be pretty frequent road closures
[27:41] for you. They don't have to close down
[27:43] their roads to have events at that
[27:46] space.
[27:47] >> honestly, we we looked at their project
[27:49] on a couple different fronts when we
[27:50] were evaluating
[27:52] design options for this. Couple things
[27:54] I'll say with respect to that. One was
[27:56] we didn't think we didn't like how they
[27:58] integrated or didn't really integrate
[28:00] their multi-family with the commercial.
[28:02] And we felt like you just had to walk
[28:03] across parking lots to get to it.
[28:06] So, we wanted to make sure that this was
[28:07] much more integrated into the overall
[28:10] project. So, that was one thing.
[28:11] Um
[28:12] and then the second thing is we didn't
[28:14] want a empty restaurant syndrome.
[28:17] So, when you have a big open space like
[28:19] the one that they have when it's not
[28:20] being programmed, which Cal and I have
[28:22] been up there mostly when it's not being
[28:23] programmed, it looks like, "Well,
[28:27] why should we go hang out there cuz
[28:28] there's really nothing going on?"
[28:29] So, we wanted to make sure that we broke
[28:31] this down in in from a design standpoint
[28:33] in in a way that looked active and
[28:35] vibrant and inviting even when it wasn't
[28:37] being used for those kinds of events.
[28:40] I I think you're still I agree with a
[28:42] lot of what what Rachel's saying. You're
[28:44] still having
[28:46] uh the same problem with I mean, it's a
[28:47] little better, but uh or where you have
[28:49] all your housing separated by the main
[28:51] thoroughfare of the entire project.
[28:53] Like, to me, that just seems very odd
[28:55] and not not optimal.
[28:59] Yeah, I mean, it definitely is separate.
[29:01] I don't know if you have an opinion
[29:02] about that you want to voice, but um
[29:04] It's It's like It's like that I'm a
[29:06] family and I want to go to the mall.
[29:08] Great. Okay, oh, bummer. Now I have to
[29:09] cross
[29:12] a very busy street to get there, and you
[29:14] know, it's not super safe to let my kids
[29:17] you know, wander to H&M, which seems
[29:19] like kind of contrary to the thesis of
[29:21] like, let's put a bunch of families
[29:23] right next to the mall so they can use
[29:23] the mall.
[29:25] And then the main thoroughfare separates
[29:26] the two. I mean, my our take on
[29:28] that access is that it's a it's a very
[29:30] low-speed It was a You know, it would be
[29:32] a lot nicer. Which I think it's a very
[29:33] low-speed access with the roundabout
[29:35] traffic with the traffic calming in
[29:36] there. It's very low-speed. It's 10 to
[29:38] 15
[29:39] um, you know, it'll feel more like a small drive versus a thoroughfare. I
[29:45] mean, the intent is to move cars
[29:48] through, but not move them through fast.
[29:50] So, you know, we're We actually feel
[29:52] like the roundabout and the ability to
[29:54] multi-use program it gives a lot of
[29:57] flexibility and a lot of
[29:59] vibrancy to the area. And and given that
[30:02] there are multiple points of
[30:05] um, you know, circulation to go around
[30:08] uh that are easily navigated, that yeah,
[30:11] it gives a a strong possibility of having a lot of life. I mean, we're
[30:15] trying to bring a lot of life to the
[30:17] area, all right? We don't want We don't want it to be just a
[30:21] traffic lane. Like, we want to be able
[30:22] to really make it a an amenity.
[30:25] And the challenge we were faced with is,
[30:27] you know, those retail partners I was
[30:28] mentioning, the anchors that we had to
[30:29] negotiate with, they would not approve a
[30:31] project that didn't have, you know, what
[30:33] they felt like was adequate access in
[30:35] and through the project cuz you're cuz
[30:37] we're I mean, the core of what we're
[30:38] doing from our circulation standpoint is
[30:41] right now you're forced to go around the
[30:42] ring right? You're forced to get as far
[30:44] away from a project as you possibly can
[30:45] or to navigate and then you come into
[30:47] the project, decide where to park, get
[30:48] out of your car, walk,
[30:50] then do it all over again, right? So,
[30:52] we're trying to invite them to come in
[30:54] and through and so when we move from
[30:57] and moving from here to here with that
[30:59] vehicle access,
[31:00] that's critical for these guys to
[31:03] approve it. And so then we were faced
[31:04] with the challenge of our Well, how do
[31:05] we allow cars to come through here in a
[31:07] way that feels safe, feels inviting, and
[31:10] still has amenity base around it. And we've looked at many projects around
[31:13] the country that did it successfully and
[31:15] we think incorporate a lot of the
[31:16] lessons learned. So,
[31:22] Anything else before I move on to some
[31:24] of the amenity slides?
[31:27] Okay, so just two levels in the mall.
[31:29] Now you're going to go over the
[31:30] amenities. Yes. Okay.
[31:39] So, just your bike access. As I
[31:40] mentioned, the one thing that we were
[31:43] concerned about it, we didn't want this
[31:44] to feel cavernous. We didn't want it to
[31:46] feel empty when it wasn't being used.
[31:48] And so we tried to imagine how can we
[31:50] break this down into a more human scale.
[31:53] And then a different amenity area, this
[31:55] one being part of the main one here. The
[31:57] vision to be more of a larger gathering
[31:59] area that's right outside that main
[32:01] entry uh to what we'll call the lobby
[32:04] for now is kind of at the core of where
[32:06] this retail nexus
[32:07] starts.
[32:10] In addition to that, we wanted to
[32:11] provide,
[32:12] you know, a little bit more of a focused
[32:14] amenity area which is right outside of
[32:16] here.
[32:17] This is the escalators I was mentioning
[32:18] before that go up to uh Cinemark. If you
[32:20] walk through there, that's the covered
[32:22] parking that exists today.
[32:24] Under Cinemark, we want to provide a a
[32:26] different, more evening-oriented,
[32:28] probably a little bit more
[32:29] adult-oriented gathering environment
[32:31] that played well with the entertainment
[32:32] component and the food and beverage that
[32:34] we envision being a large component of
[32:35] the merchandise mix here. Then,
[32:37] obviously, we wanted to provide a safe
[32:39] environment for families that's also
[32:41] maybe not as mixed in with everything
[32:43] else this week right on kind of the
[32:45] opposite area outside of this top bay.
[32:47] You know, whether it's proper fountains
[32:49] or um you know, holiday-related
[32:51] amenities, we see that happening a
[32:53] little bit more of a an I won't say
[32:55] isolated, but more of a dedicated family
[32:56] area where we can create some of those
[32:58] safety
[32:59] uh design features and make sure that it
[33:01] feels like people uh do feel safe to let
[33:04] their kids come down there and hang out
[33:05] and and aren't worried about their
[33:07] safety either from a vehicular
[33:08] standpoint or or otherwise. So,
[33:12] uh here's a couple of the things that
[33:13] we've highlighted that other projects
[33:15] have done well, whether it's these
[33:16] hardscape barriers that are also benches
[33:18] that allow for that hard barrier so that
[33:20] you create that you know, designed areas
[33:22] where people can flow, you know, through
[33:24] this so so the kids aren't just running
[33:27] out into the street or something like
[33:28] that. Um obviously, bollards are are
[33:30] important in that. We've also seen
[33:32] landscaping used really well. So, we're
[33:33] trying to incorporate each of those
[33:34] design elements into the overall plaza
[33:37] design to maximize the quality of the
[33:40] design, but also make it feel safe.
[33:45] And finally, here's here's the same
[33:47] types of things. Um
[33:49] I'm blanking on the name of this
[33:50] project. What's this project? One of
[33:52] North It's
[33:54] Is it Layton Riverdale? Or
[33:57] Station Park and Station
[33:58] >> Thank you.
[33:59] Um so, we we stole from them
[34:01] cuz we thought what they did was really
[34:02] good.
[34:05] For some reason, I thought you had done
[34:06] that project. What malls have you done?
[34:09] Me personally or Brixton Capital?
[34:11] Brixton.
[34:12] did uh we're working on Everett
[34:14] Mall right now, which is a Topgolf
[34:15] anchored project that's turning from a
[34:17] con- traditional mall into a likely a
[34:20] mixed-use entertainment style.
[34:22] Uh right now, uh Trader Joe's is open,
[34:25] Ulta's open, Topgolf's announced, but
[34:27] that's in process. Is this Everett,
[34:29] Washington?
[34:29] >> Everett Washington, yes.
[34:31] Uh and then we did Stockton, California,
[34:33] which was a conversion of a mall
[34:35] into So, we did um grocery, we did some
[34:39] um larger soft goods uh retailers there,
[34:41] and then we also added a climate In that
[34:43] particular case, we did climate
[34:44] controlled storage as a component in the
[34:45] back and sort of a non-retail space. So,
[34:48] those are the ones that Brixmor has
[34:49] done. I mean, you go through a bigger
[34:51] laundry list of the ones I've personally
[34:52] worked on, But, you're with Brixmor now.
[34:55] >> That's correct.
[34:57] Does those relationships help you in
[34:59] future projects? Like your relationship
[35:01] with Topgolf, but these relationships,
[35:03] you're able to use those and
[35:05] you find
[35:05] >> I mean, obviously it has to meet their
[35:06] business need. We obviously talk to each
[35:08] of those partners about all all of our
[35:10] opportunities as they come along. Um
[35:14] But, yeah. I mean, relationships help
[35:15] all the time. I mean, Target Target's
[35:17] obviously a was a big relationship we
[35:19] cultivated over a long time and it ended
[35:21] up, you know, culminating. We talked to
[35:22] our relationships folks that have done
[35:24] other box deals about this, and I
[35:26] mentioned I we had talked to a couple of
[35:28] those retailers before, and those are
[35:29] the type of conversations we're having
[35:31] all the time, and
[35:32] um
[35:33] would love to be in a position to be
[35:34] able to
[35:36] be far enough along the process that
[35:38] they have confidence that the vision
[35:39] that we're willing to talk to them about
[35:41] is is going to be effectuated.
[35:46] So, a couple of detail things here
[35:47] before I hand it back over Robert, but
[35:49] you know, one thing that is probably not
[35:51] quite as obvious is the amount of
[35:53] infrastructure that's required to be
[35:55] reworked or demolished
[35:57] in order to facilitate the vision that
[35:59] we're talking about here. So, if you
[36:00] look on the right-hand side, the red
[36:03] hatch thing, that's today that's all
[36:05] parking lot, and it's a bit of a
[36:07] spaghetti junction of subgrade
[36:09] utilities, whether it's storm water
[36:11] or water and all the various, you know,
[36:13] subgrade infrastructure that has to be
[36:14] reworked in order to make a way for all
[36:16] the buildings to eventually um So,
[36:18] essentially, what has to happen is this
[36:20] trunk lines that are scattered kind of
[36:22] all around need to be rerouted through
[36:24] this new, I'll call it regular, even
[36:25] some of the regular
[36:27] So, all that has to be done as part of
[36:29] the initial
[36:31] uh lift of the project and as you can
[36:32] imagine that's that's very expensive. In
[36:34] addition to that, we've got this blue
[36:36] area here which is the highly monetized
[36:38] plaza that we mentioned and then finally
[36:41] you've got all the components of the
[36:42] actual mall itself which to redevelop is fairly extraordinary um
[36:47] in most cases and this is no no
[36:49] exception.
[36:51] So, to help you guys understand the work
[36:54] that has been done so far to understand
[36:56] these details, we've gone fairly deep at
[36:59] a conceptual level I call it maybe even
[37:01] design development level
[37:03] uh of work here from an architecture
[37:05] standpoint and you can see the various
[37:07] details, elevations. We've got a whole
[37:09] package that we put together to help our
[37:11] general contractors give us pricing so
[37:13] we understand what these challenges
[37:15] actually are
[37:16] um on a kind of high level of what what
[37:18] it's going to take from an
[37:19] infrastructure level and from a project
[37:20] level in order to effectively the
[37:22] vision. So, I say that just to say
[37:26] we're not just coming to you with a
[37:27] grandiose idea with no real
[37:29] understanding what it's going to take in
[37:30] order to build something like this.
[37:31] We've done a lot of the homework and
[37:33] bring this to you with the confidence
[37:36] that we can actually do what we have on
[37:38] the page.
[37:40] So, with that I'll turn over Robert
[37:41] who's going to So, really quick I like
[37:42] how you have the covered area in front
[37:45] of the stores. What percentage
[37:47] of the um storefronts are covered?
[37:52] They're all I think they're almost all
[37:54] covered. I would say something the only
[37:55] exception would be
[38:03] And these half bays may have just
[38:05] minimal coat covering like little
[38:07] entrance covers, but
[38:09] there's walkways in front of all of
[38:10] these
[38:12] along this side and then of course these
[38:14] retailers will just have their typical
[38:16] you know, whoever it is of TJ Maxx or
[38:19] whatever entry would be difficult.
[38:28] All right. I'm just going to take a
[38:29] minute and walk through HTRZs and um
[38:34] and that process. So, several years ago
[38:35] the city of Utah created the Housing and
[38:37] Transit Reinvestment Zone Act
[38:39] legislatively.
[38:40] And this act
[38:42] allows cities to propose
[38:45] an HTRZ zone to the state and it has to
[38:48] be within a certain radius of either
[38:50] heavy rail, FrontRunner,
[38:52] light rail, or bus rapid transit. In
[38:54] this case, we have a unique situation
[38:55] where we're within
[38:57] a radius of both FrontRunner and the UVX
[38:59] line.
[39:00] Um and what what the HTRZ does is it
[39:03] enables a portion of incremental tax
[39:05] revenue
[39:06] be captured over a period of time to
[39:08] support the development and the
[39:10] extraordinary development costs.
[39:12] Um it does require
[39:14] mixed-use housing, at least 15 50
[39:17] housing units to the acre, and a minimum
[39:19] of 12% affordable. The slide says 10% is
[39:22] a typo. 9% affordable at the 80% AMI
[39:26] level and 3% affordable at 60% AMI
[39:30] level. So, is that
[39:32] Go ahead. Is that 50 units
[39:35] per 23 acres
[39:37] or just for the housing acres? It is the
[39:40] housing within the zone. So, whatever
[39:42] acreage is is within the zone requires a
[39:44] minimum density of 50 units to the acre
[39:46] within the zone.
[39:48] And about the AMI, is that based on our
[39:51] county, state, or city AMI?
[39:54] I believe it's county, but we've got Ben
[39:55] here for the
[39:57] Yeah.
[39:58] It's county. That's correct. And it's
[39:59] based on reports that are provided by
[40:02] the Housing and Urban Development.
[40:05] And would you intend to do the
[40:07] affordable units
[40:09] scattered throughout all the housing or
[40:11] all together? So, our proposal right now
[40:14] is
[40:15] we have a section of the of the project
[40:17] which is the very west side which is the
[40:19] existing mobile home park that we're
[40:21] proposing as town homes and we would
[40:23] actually propose them as for sale
[40:25] affordable town homes. So they would
[40:27] meet those levels
[40:29] on a for sale basis.
[40:31] And we think that you know helps the city meet you know it's for
[40:35] sale
[40:36] desires have for sale product
[40:39] would be owner occupied
[40:41] and affordability.
[40:43] And then the balance so that would be a
[40:45] big chunk of the requirement would kind
[40:47] of come up front
[40:48] in that phase and then the balance would
[40:50] come over time in the in the rest of the
[40:51] project.
[40:54] Just scattered throughout then.
[40:55] >> But it would proportionally through the project. So there's never a
[40:59] time where we would build
[41:01] a portion of the project unless we
[41:02] proportionally build the affordable
[41:05] portion or we've already met it.
[41:07] Who manages these affordable units as
[41:09] far as
[41:11] like
[41:12] do you guys have to just keep managing
[41:13] it over the years
[41:15] qualifying their income and Yeah. Like
[41:18] that.
[41:18] >> So so the for sale
[41:20] um
[41:22] Ben you're going to have to help me on
[41:22] some of the specifics around for sale
[41:24] but there will be a deed restriction
[41:26] right that'll and that'll be
[41:29] managed um
[41:30] through restrictions on the property and title and lending.
[41:34] Um the for rent is a management process
[41:36] so the rental management company has to
[41:39] make sure that they are meeting the the
[41:42] requirements the minimums tracking the
[41:44] incomes and and the reporting.
[41:47] Do you guys do your own rental
[41:48] management or do you use someone? We do
[41:50] our own rental management yes.
[41:57] Um just wrapping up this slide 80% of
[41:58] the tax increment
[42:01] are eligible
[42:02] to be captured over a maximum of 25
[42:05] years
[42:06] and it does require the city to adopt a
[42:08] zoning for the development before
[42:09] sending the proposal to the governor's
[42:11] office of economic opportunity.
[42:15] Um
[42:18] We we talked about kind of the steps,
[42:19] you know, this is the the governor's
[42:21] office. Um they're looking really to
[42:23] promote transit, promote affordable
[42:25] housing, and redevelopment, uh
[42:26] especially within those corridors uh
[42:29] where tran- where the state has invested
[42:31] significant capital in transit. So,
[42:33] um you know, they've they've provided
[42:35] this as a tool to help facilitate
[42:39] uh those processes.
[42:45] So, some of the uses uh for HTRZ
[42:48] increment, uh income targeted housing
[42:51] costs, structured parking, enhanced
[42:53] development costs, extra- extraordinary
[42:56] development costs, you know, when we
[42:57] look at a site like this,
[42:59] there are significant, for example,
[43:00] utilities that crisscross the site that
[43:02] all have to be re-
[43:04] uh realigned and and put into the new
[43:06] roadway alignments.
[43:07] Um and those are those are ex-
[43:10] extraordinary costs.
[43:13] Uh horizontal costs, vertical costs,
[43:15] land purchase costs, um cost of bonds,
[43:18] and administration of the HTRZ are all
[43:20] eligible costs that can be paid uh by
[43:23] the HTRZ.
[43:26] And you know, the purpose of this is
[43:27] ultimately to build value.
[43:29] Um
[43:31] when we look at the any tax increment
[43:34] financing tool, HTRZ included, uh we
[43:36] look at a base asset value, which is the blue here.
[43:42] And you know, assuming that it's it's in
[43:44] a situation where it's not going to
[43:45] increase on its own, it needs a it needs
[43:47] a little shot in the arm,
[43:49] uh this is what the HTRZ can help do.
[43:51] And so, it it allows to increase uh
[43:54] asset values over time,
[43:56] and at the end of that time period,
[43:57] there's a there's a new basis uh that
[44:00] becomes taxable. And the increment,
[44:02] which is the the area in green,
[44:04] is what's uh captured and available for
[44:06] in development costs.
[44:07] >> Councilor Whipple has a question.
[44:09] it's so
[44:11] the problem with these projections of
[44:14] the the increased revenue and everything
[44:17] from the project
[44:19] are actually the existing pro pro tabs
[44:22] at the mall.
[44:23] Right? Because it wasn't all that long
[44:25] ago, was it? 25 26 years ago. And the
[44:29] first chart that you gave us was showing
[44:31] the revenue just plummeting.
[44:34] From today, but it was, you know, it it
[44:36] did reach a high in 2007.
[44:40] Right, but that still would have been
[44:41] during the time that we'd only be
[44:43] getting incremental amounts. Now that thing is fully developed and
[44:48] everything, it's an albatross.
[44:51] Yeah.
[44:52] I guess what I would say to that is
[44:54] market conditions shift.
[44:56] And um you know, we are we we are
[44:59] reacting Brixton is reacting to the
[45:02] market, right? And and looking at what
[45:04] is today
[45:06] and what could it be in the future.
[45:08] Right? And and I don't know that we're
[45:10] asking, you know, in this in this
[45:12] scenario
[45:13] um
[45:14] the city's not taking any risk.
[45:17] Right?
[45:18] If we don't do anything,
[45:20] then we're in the blue box here
[45:22] for the next
[45:24] 25 years. Unless something changes.
[45:26] Maybe maybe something economically
[45:28] changes
[45:29] and suddenly it becomes financially
[45:31] feasible for us to come in and redevelop
[45:33] without any tax increment. But
[45:36] maybe not, right? And and we don't
[45:39] foresee that
[45:40] happening. Um so, you know, a tax
[45:43] increment financing tool is necessary if
[45:44] we're going to turn the trajectory
[45:47] of mall. And this has happened in in
[45:49] Utah. We take Orem as an example.
[45:51] Um
[45:53] And Orem's the best example, though. So,
[45:58] the University Mall, uh like all malls,
[46:01] uh found itself in a similar situation
[46:03] here a few years ago
[46:05] with declining revenue, declining sales,
[46:07] declining property tax values.
[46:09] Um,
[46:10] and the owners of that mall,
[46:13] uh,
[46:13] worked with the city of Orem to
[46:15] implement a CDA.
[46:19] Right, it was a uh,
[46:21] a fairly extensive CDA that included
[46:25] additional, uh, square footage for
[46:27] office, hotel,
[46:30] uh, retail,
[46:31] and multi-family units, uh, and it over
[46:33] a 10-year period.
[46:39] The Theirs was a 10-year period as
[46:42] opposed to 25?
[46:42] >> the build out was a 10-year Okay, what
[46:44] was their period on there?
[46:47] 30 years.
[46:52] Make sure I got that right here. 20
[46:53] years, sorry.
[46:55] I'm going to slide this kind of cut off
[46:56] here.
[46:57] Um,
[46:59] and this was their projection of the the
[47:01] tax increment increase over time.
[47:05] Now, what they were able to accomplish
[47:07] there, I think you're all familiar with
[47:08] the additional shops, restaurants,
[47:10] office space, uh,
[47:12] the hotel and and uh, multi-family was
[47:14] added there.
[47:15] You know, obviously Provo Towne Centre
[47:16] is a different mall.
[47:18] So,
[47:20] I don't think office is a a use that we
[47:22] would propose because we don't think
[47:23] it's commercially viable, but
[47:25] you know, in at that location they were
[47:27] able to do that and uh, you know, the proof is really in the pudding and
[47:31] this is fairly small text,
[47:35] but the 2013 base value
[47:38] uh, was $129 million.
[47:40] The 2025 assessed value was uh,
[47:45] over $500 million. So, a four and a half
[47:47] fold increase over the time period. Um,
[47:50] and the investment
[47:52] paid off. What year did Orem start
[47:55] theirs?
[47:56] Their their tax increment financing
[47:58] part. 2018
[48:01] It was actually settled on
[48:03] one
[48:04] year before us. So, they're still not
[48:05] seeing any of this benefit.
[48:08] Uh
[48:09] Not not till 2038. Not till 2038.
[48:12] But
[48:14] There's their school district.
[48:17] What uh Split up. What is the your
[48:20] estimated total of the um
[48:25] gap or the tax increment that you
[48:28] expect?
[48:29] Yeah, so Justin, do you want to Yeah, so
[48:31] the what we've requested is a bondable
[48:33] amount at around $20 million. And then
[48:36] the gap itself, if you really
[48:38] take it out, it's probably closer to 80,
[48:40] but
[48:40] based on our financing projections, we see the gap in the bondable amount of
[48:45] about $20 million.
[48:47] That's what we're requesting.
[48:49] So, 25 years or 20 million.
[48:53] Bondable amount, so that doesn't
[48:54] necessarily Oh. It is people being like,
[48:57] "Hey, cuz there's
[48:58] those payments are going to a bond
[49:00] holder of that type." So, what we're
[49:02] looking for is an upfront bondable
[49:03] amount to offset
[49:05] infrastructure costs of approximately 20
[49:07] million.
[49:21] So, where we are
[49:22] today, we have been to the planning
[49:24] commission with four requests.
[49:27] And those will be coming to you
[49:30] for your consideration. And we wanted to
[49:32] just touch on the request that we made
[49:33] at planning commission, some of the
[49:35] feedback that we heard, and and what we
[49:36] think our request and the need is when
[49:39] we come before you
[49:41] as city council.
[49:43] So, first um
[49:46] as I mentioned in the in the slide deck
[49:48] here, the application for the HRZ
[49:51] actually comes from the city and the
[49:53] zoning needs to be in place. So, we are
[49:56] in the process of requesting a re-zoning
[49:58] of this property to accommodate this
[50:00] project. And that step involves um
[50:04] uh what we've requested is an ITOD zone,
[50:07] amending the general plan to accommodate
[50:09] the ITOD zone, and a text amendment to
[50:12] the ITOD zone.
[50:14] One of the challenges that we faced is
[50:16] finding a zone within the Provo City
[50:18] ordinances that accommodates something
[50:20] like this.
[50:22] And so, the ITOD zone is the most
[50:26] um favorable. It's the the closest thing
[50:30] that that can accommodate something like
[50:32] this,
[50:33] but it needs a few tweaks.
[50:35] Um one of the requests that we made was
[50:36] that uh
[50:38] some tweaks be made to it that would
[50:40] allow us to build town homes that are
[50:42] for sale.
[50:44] And some of the feedback that we heard
[50:45] from Planning Commission was, "Well, we
[50:46] don't think town homes are an
[50:47] appropriate use in an ITOD zone. It
[50:49] should be more dense."
[50:51] And I just want to point out that um
[50:53] the project on University Parkway,
[50:55] River's Edge, uh built town homes within
[50:58] an ITOD zone 4 years ago.
[51:01] But they're there for rent.
[51:03] And and within the text of the zoning,
[51:06] you can actually build them for rent
[51:07] because of the lot standards.
[51:10] But you can't sell them individually
[51:12] because the lot sizes get too small. So,
[51:14] the requests that we made were to
[51:16] accommodate facilitate that use.
[51:18] Planning Commission recommended not
[51:20] approving that. They didn't feel like
[51:22] town homes were an appropriate use
[51:23] within the ITOD zone.
[51:25] But again, I I come back to
[51:27] we're following precedent here that town
[51:29] homes have been approved uh in an ITOD
[51:31] zone, but not for sale. So, you know,
[51:34] that's that's uh something that we need
[51:36] to consider.
[51:38] The other text amendment request that we
[51:40] had made was regarding setback
[51:41] requirements adjacent to uh residential
[51:44] zones.
[51:46] And uh the request that we made was that
[51:48] building heights be allowed for every
[51:51] foot horizontally
[51:53] um
[51:54] that you could go up 2 ft.
[51:56] Um and planning commission felt like
[51:57] that was
[51:58] uh too steep and they preferred the transition language that
[52:01] is in the ITOD zone.
[52:04] However, the the language that is in the
[52:06] ITOD zone currently requires within the
[52:09] first 100 ft of any residential zone,
[52:11] you can only be three stories high with
[52:13] a gable roof.
[52:15] Well, if we come back to
[52:18] Let me bring you back to the site plan
[52:19] here.
[52:22] Get to that one.
[52:34] I think I can get a better one here.
[52:38] Okay.
[52:40] So,
[52:42] we have residential zone
[52:44] here, here, here, here, and here.
[52:50] And uh those those residential zones
[52:53] primarily house uh duplex uh units and
[52:57] um multiplex units.
[53:00] Uh and we just want to point out that if
[53:01] we if we have a 100 ft setback limited
[53:04] to three stories in height
[53:06] that it dramatically reduces the density
[53:09] that we can fit on this project.
[53:12] And uh by about call it 250 to 300
[53:15] units. So, it's about a quarter of the
[53:17] units.
[53:18] Um and and one of the challenges is that
[53:21] it affects the way that the parking lays
[53:23] out. And and so,
[53:25] um
[53:26] we think there's room to work around
[53:29] this the setback from residential
[53:31] uh properties. Um you know, we had
[53:33] proposed 2 ft of vertical for every foot
[53:36] of horizontal. I think we could probably
[53:39] you know, come to a a 1 ft to 1 ft. So,
[53:42] every foot of horizontal to 1-ft of
[53:44] vertical, that that increases that set
[53:46] by set back by about double from what we
[53:49] had proposed in the in the tent.
[53:51] But that's those are two very critical
[53:53] issues for us on the rezone.
[53:56] Uh
[53:56] that make this project viable or
[53:58] unviable.
[53:59] And so we need to make sure that we get
[54:01] really clear on those.
[54:03] So what exactly is behind you? Is there
[54:05] a church with the Yeah, there's a
[54:08] church. With the church So we have a
[54:09] church here,
[54:13] This is
[54:15] open space that the church owns.
[54:18] And then we have a duplex, duplex,
[54:23] couple of duplexes in here and then two
[54:26] here.
[54:28] Those are all duplexes. Are they owned
[54:30] or rented?
[54:32] Uh I couldn't say.
[54:35] They're all HOA.
[54:37] They're all HOAs. I'm pretty sure.
[54:39] Sorry, what? What I didn't hear. I think
[54:41] they're pretty much HOAs.
[54:43] Daniel lives in
[54:45] the one around
[54:47] Yeah, Daniel lives in.
[54:50] Yes, it's all HOA. It's actually a
[54:52] really nice HOA. Like they do a good
[54:54] job.
[54:56] Okay, we can drive around there.
[54:58] For just for context, um Oh, it's what
[55:00] you drive through before you get to
[55:02] Yeah,
[55:03] they maintain it well. Yeah. This this
[55:05] building that slopes is right here
[55:08] to any residents here is
[55:10] Um
[55:11] and I guess this one as well. They're
[55:14] both 50 ft. There was a street between
[55:17] you and the residential? There is a
[55:19] there's a driveway, yes.
[55:21] But there's no street going down there.
[55:23] Like you'd be onto their property line.
[55:26] Like your property lines touch.
[55:28] Yes. Yeah. So the property line from our property line
[55:32] we're back 50 ft.
[55:35] Can I ask a question?
[55:37] Did you explore concept plans that use
[55:39] some of those townhomes as a buffer so
[55:40] that you don't have to amend the TDR
[55:43] zone?
[55:45] So,
[55:46] I Yes. Again,
[55:48] 100 ft is a long ways,
[55:51] and it just reduces the density
[55:53] dramatically.
[55:55] So,
[55:56] um,
[55:57] you know,
[55:59] In this In this area, we we do have some
[56:02] townhomes that could could potentially
[56:03] buffer there. We don't have a big issue
[56:05] here because the property line steps
[56:06] back, right? We just have more room to
[56:07] work.
[56:09] This side, um,
[56:10] you know, we have one little corner here
[56:12] that gets close, but it's not even It's
[56:14] not within 70 ft or so, you know, it's fairly
[56:17] removed. But then we're kind of pinned
[56:19] on this south side by the mall as it
[56:22] exists, and so,
[56:24] um, you know, what we're talking about
[56:26] here is,
[56:27] you know,
[56:29] really It's really just density, you
[56:31] know, and and
[56:33] building a dense
[56:35] urban project,
[56:37] right? On a redeveloping mall,
[56:39] and how do we how do we fit that in?
[56:42] Like I say, I think we can adjust that
[56:46] the ratio
[56:48] to a one-to-one, which is a 45° angle,
[56:51] and and be a minimum of 50 ft from the
[56:53] property line.
[56:55] What What are you meaning by that? You
[56:56] mean having it go
[56:58] What I'm What I'm suggesting is, you
[57:00] know, we're 50 ft from the property line on
[57:04] this side, and this is as close as we
[57:06] get.
[57:07] And we're 50 ft tall. We go 50, 50 ft
[57:10] up. So, for every 50 ft horizontally, we
[57:13] go up 50 ft, and that results in a 45°
[57:16] angle from the ground to the top of the roof.
[57:19] >> Got you.
[57:20] Um, one just thing to high just a
[57:22] reminder to highlight is not only is it
[57:26] present feasibility issues to lose that
[57:27] many units, but we also have the
[57:28] requirement on the H 2 RZ side to have
[57:31] enough density to meet that 50 units per
[57:33] acre. So, we have to have density to
[57:36] make meet the requirements of the HRZ.
[57:38] So, it's a little bit of a
[57:40] double whammy with that setback. So.
[57:45] could you put
[57:48] some of the town homes here and maybe
[57:49] move this building over there? That's
[57:51] what I was kind of
[57:54] Well, you can see the building. I mean
[57:57] there's probably a lot of
[57:59] sliding around that we can do and and
[58:01] you know, we're more than happy to look
[58:02] at it. But it it will reduce the density
[58:06] available on the site without somehow
[58:08] finding a way to I think I'd be more
[58:10] comfortable with you trying to finagle
[58:12] it and maybe some of those town homes.
[58:13] are out on an island
[58:15] and that's your 80% AMI and your 60%
[58:17] AMI. They're the ones that are going to
[58:19] need to be closer to transit in my
[58:21] opinion than your
[58:23] for-rent
[58:24] at market rate apartments. So, you kind
[58:28] of discriminated against them,
[58:31] kind of pushed them out instead of
[58:32] putting them closer to the
[58:33] transportation hubs. I'd like to see
[58:36] more of that
[58:38] integrated into your project
[58:42] and how do you kind of tweak it so that
[58:44] we can see more of that?
[58:46] Is there a distance? I mean, right now it says 100 ft, which is
[58:50] you know,
[58:52] a quarter to a third of the site, you
[58:54] know, in depth. I mean, is there is
[58:55] there a is there a some feedback on
[58:58] Well, I I would be
[59:00] I'd be okay being creative about the
[59:03] setback.
[59:04] Um my biggest heartburn about this is
[59:07] home ownership.
[59:09] We we made that very clear from the
[59:11] beginning.
[59:12] An 87 out of what is 340?
[59:16] It does not That's a nod to home
[59:17] ownership.
[59:19] What we don't need in this part of Provo
[59:21] is a bunch of more apartments. What we
[59:23] need is more home ownership.
[59:26] And so, I feel strongly
[59:29] I like what I'm seeing. I want this
[59:30] project to happen and you're going to
[59:32] tell me it doesn't pencil out.
[59:35] And I wish
[59:36] I hear that.
[59:37] I'm just saying we've got to figure out
[59:39] a way to be more creative
[59:41] because the kind of split of 1300 and
[59:43] then 87
[59:45] I understand if it's one big building,
[59:48] it's hard to split up one big building,
[59:50] but we've got separate buildings. You
[59:51] could take a couple of those those
[59:53] bigger buildings and make those condos
[59:56] or something like that.
[59:57] I feel very strongly
[1:00:00] about more home ownership and to me 87
[1:00:04] doesn't even come close. We've talked
[1:00:05] other projects about 50/50. Now, I
[1:00:08] realize not everyone on the council may
[1:00:10] see that the same,
[1:00:12] but I do.
[1:00:13] I I feel strongly that we need to be creative about figuring
[1:00:17] that out. Now, if that comes to setbacks
[1:00:19] and all this stuff, I'd I'd be willing
[1:00:21] to be creative.
[1:00:23] Um
[1:00:24] I would just I would say that the home
[1:00:27] ownership in my mind doesn't even come
[1:00:29] close.
[1:00:31] So,
[1:00:34] not that this that may matter to you, I
[1:00:36] don't know.
[1:00:37] Um
[1:00:39] condo developers typically plan on
[1:00:42] selling two to three units a month.
[1:00:45] That's about the absorption rate in a in
[1:00:47] a development project.
[1:00:49] And they can they can plan about a year
[1:00:51] to absorb. So, they can build 24 to 36
[1:00:56] units in a building
[1:00:58] and absorb those over a year and they
[1:00:59] can manage the carry cost
[1:01:02] of of doing that.
[1:01:04] Well, any one of these buildings is, you
[1:01:06] know,
[1:01:07] approaching 200 units. Multifamily we absorb on lease up
[1:01:12] 15 to 20 units a month.
[1:01:15] And we can absorb in in 12 to 15 months
[1:01:19] is tip our typical absorption period.
[1:01:22] I know
[1:01:23] it may not matter to you guys, but from
[1:01:26] a financial standpoint, those are real
[1:01:28] challenges Yeah. that we have to face.
[1:01:30] Yeah. And so, you know, if we can only
[1:01:33] absorb, you know, sell
[1:01:35] two to three units a month, then how how
[1:01:37] fast how long would it take us to sell
[1:01:39] 600 units?
[1:01:42] Right? Those are the challenges that we
[1:01:44] face, that we're trying to overcome.
[1:01:47] Um
[1:01:48] and and it's why, frankly, we don't see
[1:01:51] condo projects being built at the same
[1:01:53] rate we see apartment units being built.
[1:01:55] There's also a shift in the marketplace
[1:01:57] of
[1:01:58] uh renters by choice
[1:02:00] who can rent and and it's especially
[1:02:03] true today. It's not always been true
[1:02:05] and it will shift back. But today
[1:02:08] what you rent for and what you what you
[1:02:10] pay in in terms of a mortgage, there's
[1:02:12] so much disparity between the two that
[1:02:13] people are choosing to rent.
[1:02:15] Right? Even if they can afford to buy.
[1:02:17] They choose to rent because it's it's a
[1:02:18] better financial choice for
[1:02:21] And it's been happening for several
[1:02:22] years and we foresee it happening for
[1:02:24] the next several years. So, if we're
[1:02:26] trying to plan housing
[1:02:28] um and housing availability
[1:02:31] like
[1:02:32] policy-wise, we can put a stake in the
[1:02:33] ground and say
[1:02:35] this is the way it's going to be, but
[1:02:36] the market may not respond.
[1:02:38] Yeah. But at the same time, you're
[1:02:39] asking us to be lenient
[1:02:42] for something that's not necessarily in
[1:02:43] our goals, right?
[1:02:45] So, I think there needs to be more more
[1:02:47] give and take from the other end.
[1:02:50] And you're asking a lot from us. Yeah,
[1:02:52] and I and I would say I do care that
[1:02:54] this is successful. I I do care about
[1:02:57] the finances.
[1:02:59] And I also believe that there's got to
[1:03:01] be some way to figure this out.
[1:03:03] Um
[1:03:05] we've worked as we look at this project,
[1:03:08] again, I I just can't imagine moving
[1:03:10] forward with that kind of
[1:03:12] that number of apartments and that kind
[1:03:14] of home ownership.
[1:03:15] It just on that
[1:03:17] I personally think I would say,
[1:03:20] "Well, then we we should wait." Agreed.
[1:03:22] >> It just just me personal.
[1:03:25] Um and I really want this to happen. I
[1:03:27] love what you put together. I like what
[1:03:28] you're doing and I want you to be
[1:03:30] successful and I want the city to be
[1:03:32] successful, too, and I feel very
[1:03:33] strongly
[1:03:35] that we've got to be more creative in
[1:03:36] figuring out a way to to do that.
[1:03:40] We know the market is there. We have so
[1:03:42] many young singles that want to own and
[1:03:44] they want small. They want They want
[1:03:46] apartment owning. You had some of that
[1:03:47] in your comments on the planning
[1:03:48] commission.
[1:03:49] I believe the market is there to do that.
[1:03:54] Like I would Yeah.
[1:03:56] At least one of those buildings
[1:04:00] for sale.
[1:04:01] Um Is it okay if I go?
[1:04:03] >> Yeah.
[1:04:04] So, I have a couple kind of related
[1:04:06] questions around housing. What is your
[1:04:07] current plan with the manufactured
[1:04:09] housing that would be displaced for our
[1:04:11] these townhomes?
[1:04:14] I'll do it to you back. I'll call
[1:04:15] Justin. Sure. Uh yeah, so the plan
[1:04:18] currently is that there's a little
[1:04:20] somewhere between 30 and 35 at the
[1:04:22] moment that we anticipate, if it
[1:04:24] happened today, they would be impacted.
[1:04:26] But obviously, this is not happening
[1:04:28] today. So, one of the things we've
[1:04:29] offered is to provide at least 18 months
[1:04:31] worth of notice to anybody, you know,
[1:04:33] from the time we would actually need to
[1:04:35] vacate. So, we want to give them plenty
[1:04:36] of time. And then during that 18-month
[1:04:39] period, we really want to work with each
[1:04:40] of them individually to figure out what
[1:04:42] the right solution is for them because
[1:04:44] the the range of of desires and
[1:04:48] potential outcomes varies widely. Some
[1:04:50] of those old homes are very old and may
[1:04:53] not feel they can be moved. Some of them
[1:04:55] can maybe easily be moved. And we don't
[1:04:57] necessarily know what their, you know,
[1:04:59] housing goals are, either. So, we want
[1:05:00] to take that time in order to kind of
[1:05:02] individually work with each of them to
[1:05:04] figure out what the right solution is
[1:05:05] and there are varieties of different
[1:05:07] things that they could do, but we didn't
[1:05:09] have had those conversations yet and we
[1:05:11] want to make sure that there's plenty of
[1:05:12] time in this process to have those
[1:05:14] conversations. So, like I said, we've
[1:05:15] committed to,
[1:05:16] you know, minimum 18 months. It could be
[1:05:18] potentially longer than that, but 18
[1:05:20] months of of notice for that.
[1:05:22] >> Is there Is there willingness for more
[1:05:23] substantial commitments? Like to help
[1:05:25] them relocate. I think these are some of
[1:05:27] the most vulnerable members of our
[1:05:28] community.
[1:05:31] Again, I'm with Craig. I want I want to
[1:05:33] find a way to make this happen, but I
[1:05:34] think each of us have sort of our red
[1:05:36] lines. Like this to me is a red line.
[1:05:37] Like we're not going to displace these
[1:05:39] people and not help them relocate and me
[1:05:40] vote for this. So,
[1:05:42] 18 months is nice to get a head start,
[1:05:44] but you know, I talked to one woman who
[1:05:45] just, you know,
[1:05:47] saved up all her money, put a mortgage
[1:05:50] on this on a on one of the homes, and
[1:05:52] now it's like for her to find the money
[1:05:53] to relocate this in a place that works
[1:05:54] for her life is like just
[1:05:55] catastrophically,
[1:05:58] you know, impactful to her personal
[1:05:59] financial situation. So, I recognize you
[1:06:01] have constraints, but like
[1:06:03] the idea here is to find a win-win for
[1:06:05] our community, but also for you all. And
[1:06:06] so, that's just something I want to be
[1:06:07] clear about. Yeah, understood. And I'll
[1:06:10] just from an operational standpoint,
[1:06:12] uh we don't allow folks to move in. So,
[1:06:16] meaning
[1:06:17] nobody can just come in and legally just
[1:06:19] buy a mobile home park mobile home from
[1:06:21] somebody else. Because one, we want to
[1:06:23] know who's in there, and two, we want to
[1:06:26] make them aware of
[1:06:27] this scenario. So, if somebody comes in
[1:06:29] to says, "Hey, we want to acquire this
[1:06:31] home over here." We say, "Well,
[1:06:33] okay, here's
[1:06:35] probably can't do that and here's why."
[1:06:36] So, we we try as best we can to avoid
[1:06:39] those situations, but making sure that
[1:06:40] there's transparency with us so they can
[1:06:42] be made aware of you know, situations.
[1:06:44] We do not allow on our end for new folks
[1:06:48] to move in for all the reasons we just
[1:06:50] talked about.
[1:06:50] >> And haven't you been doing that for a
[1:06:51] while? What What's the last time that
[1:06:53] you took in a new
[1:06:55] I don't know exactly, but it's at least
[1:06:57] been a year, probably a couple of years
[1:06:58] that we've had that policy at least. I I
[1:07:01] didn't realize that people purchase. So,
[1:07:03] do they rent the the spot from you, the
[1:07:06] land, and then they provide the home.
[1:07:07] They would buy the house. I thought you
[1:07:09] owned both. Uh it's some mobile parks do
[1:07:12] operate that way. In our case, the the
[1:07:14] individual owns the home.
[1:07:15] >> It's their It's their home. Theirs. They
[1:07:17] go and then they lease the land on the
[1:07:19] lot. Correct.
[1:07:21] I didn't know that. And then I have
[1:07:22] another question. What
[1:07:23] >> Can Can I just add There There are
[1:07:24] challenges around mobile home parks
[1:07:26] because there are age restrictions on
[1:07:29] moving mobile homes. Sometimes they they
[1:07:31] age out or they get they get degraded
[1:07:33] enough that they can't be moved. So, the
[1:07:36] question becomes, well, whose job is to
[1:07:37] maintain the mobile home if it can't be
[1:07:39] moved? Whose job is that? Is that the
[1:07:41] land owner's or is that the home
[1:07:42] owner's?
[1:07:43] And And those are questions that we, you
[1:07:45] know, they're sticky.
[1:07:47] But we don't believe the land owner's
[1:07:49] responsible to maintain individuals'
[1:07:50] mobile homes.
[1:07:52] Don't get me wrong. You'll You'll You'll
[1:07:54] hear no argument from me about the
[1:07:55] problematic nature of mobile homes as a model, but nonetheless, they're
[1:07:59] still residents for our community. Um
[1:08:01] okay, so my other question is um are
[1:08:03] there any additional asks you all plan
[1:08:06] for this project that are not currently
[1:08:07] on the table? Like additional PIPS from
[1:08:09] like a a performance perspective on tax
[1:08:13] sales tax.
[1:08:14] Yeah, we've requested a sales tax uh
[1:08:16] share on it. It's not technically part
[1:08:18] of the EAZ. And we've requested a a
[1:08:21] PID, right?
[1:08:23] A PID, but not in order to put
[1:08:25] additional increment on, but basically
[1:08:26] just to take the revenues that are
[1:08:27] proposed to come in and use that as the
[1:08:30] bonding mechanism. So, it's not an
[1:08:31] additional
[1:08:32] uh monetary request. It's just a
[1:08:35] structural But that's That's the vehicle
[1:08:37] for the bonding.
[1:08:37] >> That's right. I know.
[1:08:40] So, What's And And And I would Was there
[1:08:41] anything I forgot? I don't think so. And
[1:08:43] to be clear, just to make sure everyone
[1:08:45] understands, a PID does not obligate the
[1:08:48] city necessarily. I mean, there are ways that a city can
[1:08:51] participate, but right as of right now,
[1:08:53] I don't think we're asking that the city
[1:08:55] necessarily guarantee guarantee the
[1:08:57] >> is to get back a portion of the revenues that we generate either
[1:09:03] sales tax or property tax over a
[1:09:05] baseline
[1:09:07] and be able to monetize that to help pay
[1:09:08] for the project. Yeah. So we're not
[1:09:10] asking for any of the existing tax base.
[1:09:12] We're asking for a portion of the income
[1:09:13] angle. Yeah. And how much of that
[1:09:15] exactly are you asking for? Uh it shares
[1:09:17] the
[1:09:19] it's 80% and we requested right now our
[1:09:21] modeling shows 50% of the sales tax
[1:09:23] share that half a percent.
[1:09:25] Which is a half a percent? Half a
[1:09:26] percent, Yeah. which is two years.
[1:09:31] It Going back to some of the home issue,
[1:09:34] um like right now there is one of those
[1:09:37] trailers listed for sale
[1:09:41] on Zillow. Like somebody's trying to
[1:09:43] actively sell one of these homes in your
[1:09:45] park.
[1:09:47] I would.
[1:09:48] Yeah, I had flagged it and and sent it
[1:09:50] to the building services a few months
[1:09:52] ago when I first saw it. It's been up
[1:09:53] there since October, so they're not
[1:09:54] moving it.
[1:09:56] But I don't know if that could be bought
[1:09:58] to move. I don't know. Sure. Yeah, the
[1:10:00] listing it just did say that the that it
[1:10:03] must be moved. Yeah. Yeah. We have had
[1:10:05] those come in that want to purchase
[1:10:07] Cedar Bay and sell the trailer and then
[1:10:09] move it to another site, land, mobile
[1:10:12] home park, whatever it is.
[1:10:13] So we will generally allow that. Okay.
[1:10:16] They are allowed to move out obviously
[1:10:17] to eventually vacate.
[1:10:19] So
[1:10:21] and I I talked to some of you there
[1:10:24] before.
[1:10:25] You said that there are 30 to 35 units
[1:10:28] affected. I know that you know, some
[1:10:30] people have moved out, have left their properties.
[1:10:35] Um so how many of those homes have
[1:10:38] already been vacated?
[1:10:40] And do you have any more that are in the
[1:10:42] process of being vacated?
[1:10:46] I mean I think there's always usually a
[1:10:48] couple that are in process of you know,
[1:10:50] legal
[1:10:52] for whatever Right, for for not
[1:10:54] complying with regulations or things
[1:10:56] like that. And there's very very few
[1:10:57] that we force trailer violations on us
[1:10:59] >> Usually it's ancient reasons.
[1:11:01] Um
[1:11:02] But that 30 to 35 includes folks that
[1:11:05] have already moved out. That's not
[1:11:06] necessarily mobile home
[1:11:08] trailers or mobile home
[1:11:10] units that are sitting there cuz they're into the middle of process of
[1:11:14] either removing or demolishing any
[1:11:17] right in the shape or form of it, so.
[1:11:20] Yeah, I The reason I ask about that is
[1:11:24] um
[1:11:25] I don't know exactly how many households
[1:11:29] are potentially affected by this right
[1:11:31] now because I know some of them are
[1:11:33] already in the process of leaving before
[1:11:35] we do any of this. Okay. Um and I'm
[1:11:39] honestly surprised that you don't have
[1:11:40] more specific numbers for us on that
[1:11:43] where you can't say, "All right, there
[1:11:45] are still 30 units that are in full
[1:11:46] compliance. We've got three that are
[1:11:49] in in violation and so we expect that
[1:11:51] they'll be gone before we even consider
[1:11:53] moving forward with that."
[1:11:54] >> Or I can tell you all the five are in
[1:11:56] some level of non-compliance.
[1:11:58] They're operationally or financially.
[1:12:01] So
[1:12:03] How many How many of those do you feel
[1:12:06] see what I'm saying? Moving out is kind
[1:12:08] of it's a loaded question. I can't
[1:12:10] exactly answer your
[1:12:11] Right.
[1:12:12] >> question. But if there only five
[1:12:15] households there
[1:12:16] that are in full compliance with the the
[1:12:19] restrictions and covenants of living in
[1:12:21] the mobile home park
[1:12:23] um
[1:12:25] where there could be through normal
[1:12:29] legal process is a way to to remove them
[1:12:32] if this weren't happening
[1:12:34] then that's that's a very different
[1:12:37] situation, right?
[1:12:39] That you would need to work with five
[1:12:42] residents or five homes So we don't
[1:12:44] necessarily have it done that
[1:12:46] necessarily have it done
[1:12:47] that approach.
[1:12:48] Right. Right.
[1:12:50] >> We could We could just lay the hammer
[1:12:52] down on everybody and
[1:12:54] only enforce because no there's not one
[1:12:57] tenant not one tenant that has an active
[1:13:00] lease at all in the whole of Boulder.
[1:13:02] So,
[1:13:03] we have a legal right to do a lot of
[1:13:06] this. We're just going to do what's the
[1:13:08] right thing to do. We're going to do the
[1:13:09] right thing to do. And I think that's actually an important thing for
[1:13:13] our community to know
[1:13:15] that some of the people who are living
[1:13:17] here are vulnerable not just because of
[1:13:20] their socioeconomic status, but because
[1:13:23] they are actually not in compliance with
[1:13:25] the current requirements of the place
[1:13:28] that they're living right now.
[1:13:30] And then often times I would say with
[1:13:32] normal standards of safety at home.
[1:13:35] So, like these
[1:13:37] that's a complicating factor that we we
[1:13:41] need to consider that some of these
[1:13:42] people may not have on their own
[1:13:46] strong rights to remain in this area
[1:13:49] already. It doesn't mean that there
[1:13:52] good options for them that they could
[1:13:54] afford elsewhere, but
[1:13:59] it it adds color to the conversation.
[1:14:07] Got Henderson.
[1:14:08] Speaking in a Mayor Judkins absence,
[1:14:11] there's a couple points that she wanted
[1:14:13] me to bring up. I think for those
[1:14:15] properties that you've discussed that
[1:14:17] may still be there, I think she really
[1:14:20] wanted to look at a target of a $10,000
[1:14:23] relocation allowance possibly for those
[1:14:26] ones as something to look at as part of
[1:14:28] your evaluation of the process.
[1:14:31] And another point that she wanted
[1:14:33] brought up and look at is just to make
[1:14:35] sure as both staff and you look at your
[1:14:38] design that and and Becky brought that
[1:14:40] up, make sure we have effective
[1:14:42] placement of transit locations close to
[1:14:45] those who would be most likely the
[1:14:46] users. So, make sure we spend enough
[1:14:48] time on that. But, those are a couple
[1:14:50] concepts that she wanted me to express
[1:14:52] for.
[1:14:54] Thank you.
[1:14:55] Councilor Whitlock.
[1:14:57] Thank you.
[1:14:58] Just a few more questions. I wanted
[1:15:00] Maybe you said this and I missed it.
[1:15:01] You're saying so the
[1:15:04] sales tax TIF is a half a percent over
[1:15:07] what period of time?
[1:15:08] Uh
[1:15:09] 10 to
[1:15:11] 30
[1:15:12] or
[1:15:14] So, 30 years? Okay. And then
[1:15:16] maybe this is a Cody question or your
[1:15:18] question, but this HTRZ zone it also
[1:15:21] requires the city to take 15% of sales
[1:15:23] tax of our sales tax and put it into a
[1:15:26] transportation fund. Can you explain how
[1:15:27] that works? I didn't fully
[1:15:29] understand all that from the packet.
[1:15:31] That's a city question.
[1:15:32] That a Cody question?
[1:15:33] >> City question. Isn't there like some
[1:15:34] requirement with
[1:15:37] Yeah, there is. So, with the HTRZ
[1:15:38] portion of it
[1:15:40] my notes towards what My notes I have
[1:15:43] notes.
[1:15:45] It's putting I don't know.
[1:15:47] If you give me one second, I'll Okay, I
[1:15:48] can ask another question in the
[1:15:49] meantime. So,
[1:15:52] the chart you provided the latest actual
[1:15:54] numbers were as of 2023. I was curious,
[1:15:56] what were the numbers for 2024 and 2025?
[1:15:59] Yes, because we have the target going in
[1:16:01] 2024. Yes.
[1:16:03] Uh I don't have that, but it's a good
[1:16:05] story. Okay. I I That's something the
[1:16:07] city would have to share with us
[1:16:07] actually.
[1:16:09] Okay, maybe we can get into
[1:16:11] Do you Are you not in contracts with the
[1:16:13] current operators of the mall?
[1:16:15] Can we also share
[1:16:16] >> but
[1:16:16] vast majority of retailers do not share
[1:16:18] their sales.
[1:16:19] >> Do not share their sales receipts with
[1:16:20] you. Okay. Um
[1:16:22] and then
[1:16:23] uh
[1:16:26] Cody, do you have that number now?
[1:16:27] >> Yeah, okay, cool.
[1:16:32] Cody Hill from the city economic
[1:16:34] development. So, it's 15%. So, 15% of
[1:16:38] the sales tax revenue that's generated
[1:16:39] within the HTRZ area goes towards the
[1:16:41] state TIF fund. That's 15% of the total
[1:16:44] 8% or whatever. It's not 15% of the
[1:16:46] city's I believe it's the 15% of the
[1:16:48] state's portion of the state. Are you
[1:16:49] saying 1.5 or 5.0?
[1:16:51] 14.15
[1:16:53] So you're saying the portion is what we
[1:16:54] already said at the state anyway. I
[1:16:56] believe that's correct. Is that Yeah. So
[1:16:58] it's not really relevant to us. Yeah, so
[1:17:00] it's not it doesn't So I guess it just
[1:17:02] depends what the denominator is. Is it
[1:17:04] from the state's allotment or is it from
[1:17:05] the total I mean I guess Yeah, I think
[1:17:07] it's the state. It's not relevant to us
[1:17:08] then. All right. Yeah.
[1:17:10] it's not our point of sale
[1:17:12] portion. Yeah, okay. Makes sense.
[1:17:15] And do we have an understanding of what
[1:17:17] all these percentages together are in
[1:17:18] actual dollar amounts? Sure. Yeah.
[1:17:21] If you prepare for this we want to
[1:17:23] have a more general discussion but I had
[1:17:25] a great time talking to you on
[1:17:27] projections at the department.
[1:17:29] annual standpoint
[1:17:33] Thank you.
[1:17:38] What are the Is that parking at the back
[1:17:41] of your second apartment complex?
[1:17:44] On the right. parking Yeah. Yeah. Uh
[1:17:47] townhomes. Oh, those are townhomes. Mhm.
[1:17:50] Yeah.
[1:17:53] with parking Yeah.
[1:17:59] And because it's a townhome it's not
[1:18:01] required to have the 100 ft, right?
[1:18:05] It doesn't Well, yeah, it doesn't go
[1:18:06] over the three stories.
[1:18:11] This question, is the
[1:18:13] Are the townhomes those two-story?
[1:18:17] Um two and three.
[1:18:20] Tyler, do you remember?
[1:18:21] We we've shown a variety of different
[1:18:23] designs. So I think those ones might
[1:18:25] just be two stories. But you have two
[1:18:28] and three. Um it just depends if we have
[1:18:31] it fully fleshed out.
[1:18:34] And do you all of your apartments have
[1:18:37] elevators?
[1:18:40] Uh yes, they do. Um
[1:18:42] this is what we call a wrap or it wraps
[1:18:44] around a parking structure. Those are
[1:18:45] five levels of units from the ground
[1:18:48] floor and those have elevators and then
[1:18:51] uh these two in the middle are what we
[1:18:53] call a podium. So, the left apartment
[1:18:55] units are built on top of the parking.
[1:18:58] And so, those are
[1:18:59] five levels on top of two levels of
[1:19:01] parking. So, it's ends up being seven
[1:19:03] stories tall and they all have and they
[1:19:05] all have elevators. And the ones to the
[1:19:07] east also have elevators? Yes.
[1:19:15] Councilor Whitlock?
[1:19:17] Um just for our education, assuming you
[1:19:19] know your business, but I'd like to
[1:19:20] understand so you said there's this like
[1:19:22] secular trend of malls failing across
[1:19:24] the United States. Um explain to us why
[1:19:27] this will work. Like why will this work
[1:19:29] and be durable for the next 50 years as
[1:19:31] opposed to
[1:19:33] you know, succumbing to this trend but
[1:19:34] just delaying it by a little bit.
[1:19:36] Good question. Um so, let me just
[1:19:38] reference some some of my work before I
[1:19:40] came to Brixmor. So, um
[1:19:42] I spent uh
[1:19:43] almost 5 years at CBL, which is a
[1:19:45] publicly traded REIT out of Chattanooga,
[1:19:47] Tennessee. They had 85 malls. I spent 5
[1:19:49] years with them redeveloping malls. Um
[1:19:52] their malls are mostly located in um
[1:19:55] Midwest, Southeast, and a little bit in
[1:19:57] the Northeast.
[1:19:59] More in secondary and tertiary markets
[1:20:01] and so, they ended up seeing the front
[1:20:03] wave of the secular shifts. So,
[1:20:05] obviously as uh malls that were winning
[1:20:08] continue to win. So, those that are the
[1:20:10] dominant, we'll call fortress malls, uh
[1:20:13] continue to win. You can think of uh City Creek. You think of just like
[1:20:18] everybody knows where it is. Everybody's
[1:20:19] willing to travel to go to it, right?
[1:20:21] Well, that takes the energy out of all
[1:20:22] the other malls that used to serve those
[1:20:24] areas.
[1:20:25] Um so, that's this been happening for a
[1:20:26] lot of time. So, CBL was kind of at the
[1:20:29] front wave of that. And then I went to
[1:20:31] work for a company called Macerich,
[1:20:32] which was a total trade area of Santa
[1:20:33] Monica, uh California.
[1:20:35] They had some higher quality malls, and
[1:20:38] but they had some of the lower tier
[1:20:40] ones. So, their options
[1:20:42] more like this asset had a little bit
[1:20:45] better demographics, a little bit better
[1:20:47] setting to reimagine what it could be
[1:20:49] instead of just saying, "Hey, well,
[1:20:50] maybe it's tear this down and do
[1:20:51] something completely different with it.
[1:20:53] We could reuse the buildings." And the
[1:20:55] reason um
[1:20:57] the reason this works is because I don't
[1:21:00] have the slide in here, but if you think
[1:21:01] about how mall traditionally works,
[1:21:03] people come maybe sometime during the
[1:21:06] week to go to a movie or maybe go or
[1:21:09] something like that, but the bulk of the
[1:21:10] time that's spent in a mall is let's
[1:21:13] call it 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. in the
[1:21:15] evenings, and then on the weekends it's
[1:21:17] fairly busy, you know, most of the time.
[1:21:20] Well, that means during the day and in
[1:21:22] the morning pretty much every time there
[1:21:23] is no activity. The only people there
[1:21:25] are virtually the people that operate
[1:21:26] the mall and the people that work at the
[1:21:27] mall.
[1:21:28] So, adding a mix of uses into the mix
[1:21:31] creates vibrancy, creates traffic,
[1:21:33] creates a self-sustaining
[1:21:35] uh story. So, it basically becomes a
[1:21:38] self-fulfilling prophecy that the
[1:21:41] residents that are there like having the
[1:21:43] amenities. They like being able to walk
[1:21:44] down go across this a short uh uh
[1:21:47] pedestrian walkway and get their coffee
[1:21:49] and go eat a bagel or do whatever
[1:21:51] they're going to do in the morning. Then
[1:21:52] they may come back for lunch. They may
[1:21:54] even work there or work nearby, and then
[1:21:56] all of a sudden it becomes activity
[1:21:57] throughout the day. So, the So, they are
[1:21:59] getting the benefit of that mix of use
[1:22:01] amenities. Consequently, they're
[1:22:03] typically going to pay a premium to live
[1:22:04] there because it's a nicer lifestyle.
[1:22:06] And all those businesses are benefiting
[1:22:08] from the fact that they have residents
[1:22:09] that are able to walk down, typically
[1:22:11] have good disposable income to be able
[1:22:13] to spend on higher price point items,
[1:22:15] and be able to make that a
[1:22:16] self-fulfilling prophecy. A traditional
[1:22:18] mall doesn't have that. A traditional
[1:22:20] mall relied on the model where Dillard's
[1:22:22] and J.C. Penney's and Macy's would come,
[1:22:24] and they would drive a million visitors
[1:22:27] there because everybody knew who they
[1:22:28] were and you used to go to a department
[1:22:29] store and everybody in the middle relied
[1:22:32] on on that business to bring all the
[1:22:34] traffic.
[1:22:35] We all know what has happened with
[1:22:36] Macy's and Dillard's and Bon-Ton and
[1:22:38] Sears. You go through the list of all
[1:22:39] department stores.
[1:22:41] When they when that business model
[1:22:42] collapsed, it took most malls with them.
[1:22:45] And so now there's not that anchor
[1:22:47] driver. So by creating this mix of uses,
[1:22:49] you're creating that activity that used
[1:22:50] to be brought by those anchors.
[1:22:53] So hopefully that helps. No, thank you.
[1:22:54] That makes that's helpful. Okay, I'm
[1:22:56] realizing we are definitely over time.
[1:22:59] Um
[1:23:01] the real numbers. Where are the real
[1:23:02] numbers? Are they here now or are they
[1:23:04] coming in the future?
[1:23:06] Certainly now. Real numbers as far as
[1:23:07] the actual dollar amounts of
[1:23:09] >> here. We've got a model and we certainly
[1:23:11] will Cody's
[1:23:13] or Professor will share all that and
[1:23:15] happy to.
[1:23:16] Okay, I don't know if we have time to do
[1:23:18] this now or if we need to do another
[1:23:20] work meeting to finish this.
[1:23:23] Yeah, so We'd be happy to come back probably and
[1:23:26] go through some more of the details and
[1:23:27] answer some of these questions. That was
[1:23:28] kind of what we
[1:23:30] All right, so yep, let's plan on another
[1:23:31] work meeting. We need to talk about more
[1:23:33] with this for sure. But thank you for
[1:23:35] all this extra information. Yeah, and
[1:23:37] let let me also just say this is
[1:23:39] tremendously exciting. This should be a wonderful asset to the city. So as you
[1:23:44] hear us deal with our challenges,
[1:23:46] especially as to the housing, no
[1:23:48] different than the challenges you have
[1:23:49] in trying to make the site work. Um
[1:23:52] and I'm convinced that we can find a way
[1:23:54] to make that work. But I'm very excited
[1:23:56] about what this will bring to the city.
[1:23:58] We're excited about the possibility.
[1:24:00] Thank you. Thank you.
[1:24:02] All right, we're going to go ahead with
[1:24:03] the presentation regarding the 2027
[1:24:05] budget. No.
[1:24:07] Uh
[1:24:08] yep, of administrative services.
[1:24:12] Presented by Dan Follett.
[1:24:18] Hey, if you get that contract to you you
[1:24:19] can earn a break. Yeah, you that 5
[1:24:21] minutes back.
[1:24:23] Let's see.
[1:25:02] Good. Good.
[1:25:04] Your tickets.
[1:25:05] You're up. Okay.
[1:25:12] Thank you municipal municipal council.
[1:25:15] Uh we appreciate the opportunity to talk
[1:25:16] about administrative services.
[1:25:18] Uh
[1:25:19] every year when we um do this
[1:25:22] presentation,
[1:25:23] uh we've asked the justice court to do
[1:25:26] an update on the justice court.
[1:25:28] Um Judge Schreiner is here today to do
[1:25:31] that update. He needs to leave uh as
[1:25:34] soon as possible. And so, we're going to
[1:25:37] move his portion to the beginning of the
[1:25:39] meeting.
[1:25:40] Uh so, judge, if you could come up and
[1:25:43] then uh Scott Henderson would also like
[1:25:45] to uh say a few words this time.
[1:25:59] Well, with Judge Schreiner's
[1:26:01] presentation, there's also a chance for
[1:26:03] a celebration.
[1:26:05] I think anytime uh
[1:26:08] longtime employee sticks with us for 30
[1:26:11] years, that is deserving of celebration.
[1:26:13] Judge Schreiner is celebrating that
[1:26:16] 30-year anniversary tomorrow. Isn't that
[1:26:19] amazing?
[1:26:21] Sorry. I'm sorry I'm taking from your
[1:26:23] You're going to shoot confetti confetti
[1:26:25] cannons, then go ahead and do that. But
[1:26:28] personally, I go back
[1:26:31] to my first days and
[1:26:33] Steve that at that time working in legal
[1:26:36] was a good friend. Was a good friend and
[1:26:39] I transitioned to a place where I didn't
[1:26:42] know anybody
[1:26:44] um at Provo City and you know, we talked
[1:26:47] a lot about basketball. We talked a lot
[1:26:49] about kids. We did those things, but
[1:26:54] that's something that really helped in
[1:26:55] an individual's transition. But Steve
[1:26:58] has always been that top performer and
[1:27:00] you can see that in where he's at now
[1:27:03] and he is amazing asset to our city and
[1:27:06] to our community and somebody I'm very
[1:27:10] proud of to be able to call a friend and
[1:27:13] we have his certificate for 30 years
[1:27:18] along with the recognition that he
[1:27:20] receives. And so if we could, let's
[1:27:23] congratulate Steve together on 30 great
[1:27:25] years.
[1:27:35] I'll thank you everyone.
[1:27:38] I started when I was 10 years old.
[1:27:44] Well, thank you. And the mayor's not
[1:27:47] here, huh?
[1:27:48] She had to leave and be in St. George. I
[1:27:50] hear. Okay.
[1:27:54] Well, members of the council then,
[1:27:57] uh last year
[1:27:58] that was my first address to the
[1:28:00] council.
[1:28:01] I stood before you prior
[1:28:04] to the NCAA basketball tournament last
[1:28:07] year.
[1:28:08] Uh last year's basketball team made it
[1:28:10] to the sweet 16. I don't know if you
[1:28:12] remember that.
[1:28:13] And this year, she's
[1:28:16] this year still a little sensitive about
[1:28:18] it. The first week of the tournament was
[1:28:19] played last week and the Cougars didn't
[1:28:21] make it out of the first round.
[1:28:24] So, bummer deal as it relates to that.
[1:28:26] But, being a former BYU basketball
[1:28:29] player,
[1:28:30] I thought it was appropriate that Dave
[1:28:32] McCann, in yesterday's Desert News
[1:28:35] article about this year's team,
[1:28:37] quoted the German poet, Ludwig
[1:28:41] J- Jacobowski.
[1:28:44] And he said, "Don't cry because it's
[1:28:46] over.
[1:28:47] Smile because it's happened."
[1:28:50] I kind of like that. Don't cry because
[1:28:52] it's over, smile because it happened.
[1:28:55] With fabulous freshmen, including Bear
[1:28:57] Backmire,
[1:28:59] and the football team,
[1:29:01] and AJ DeBons on the basketball team,
[1:29:04] and Jane Hedengren,
[1:29:07] uh in track and field, there's much for
[1:29:08] Cougars to smile about. And you all
[1:29:11] running Cougar Town,
[1:29:13] I have much to be smart much to smile
[1:29:15] about.
[1:29:17] If you don't know Jane Hedengren,
[1:29:20] Google her.
[1:29:21] Right, Brian?
[1:29:22] Google. Amazing. She's phenomenal.
[1:29:26] Anyway, I'm grateful for the opportunity
[1:29:28] to address you here today. I promise to
[1:29:30] be brief.
[1:29:31] It's been a little more than 2 years
[1:29:33] since I began my tenure as the Provo
[1:29:35] Justice Court Judge.
[1:29:37] Um and next tomorrow, as Scott said,
[1:29:41] will mark my 30 years
[1:29:44] having worked for Provo City, 28 in the
[1:29:47] Provo City Attorney's Office,
[1:29:49] many of those years with Brian.
[1:29:51] And I loved working in the Provo City
[1:29:53] Attorney's Office,
[1:29:54] and I have loved working in the Provo
[1:29:57] Justice Court as your judge.
[1:30:00] And my colleagues at the court are
[1:30:02] amazing.
[1:30:04] Um they are dedicated Provo City
[1:30:06] employees working to serve the citizens
[1:30:08] of Provo.
[1:30:10] And from my perspective, they are doing
[1:30:11] an excellent job.
[1:30:14] As you may or may not be aware,
[1:30:16] every four years Justice Courts are
[1:30:18] required to go through a recertification
[1:30:20] process.
[1:30:22] And our court did so most recently in
[1:30:24] 2023. So, we'll probably be doing that
[1:30:26] again next year. Is that right,
[1:30:28] Rhiannon?
[1:30:30] And as part of that recertification
[1:30:32] process, individual Justice Court judges
[1:30:35] are supposed to be meeting with uh the
[1:30:38] governing body
[1:30:40] that created the court
[1:30:42] at least yearly, which is why I'm here
[1:30:44] today.
[1:30:45] And part of that is to go over the
[1:30:47] budget of the court, to review
[1:30:49] compliance with the requirements and
[1:30:51] operational standards of the court, and
[1:30:53] to and to discuss other items of common
[1:30:56] concern.
[1:30:58] I'll leave the court's budget to people
[1:31:00] like Rhiannon, who's our court
[1:31:02] executive, and to Dan.
[1:31:06] But I want to assure you that uh Provo
[1:31:08] Justice Court meets, if not exceeds, the
[1:31:11] operational standards set by statute and
[1:31:14] the Judicial Council of the State of
[1:31:15] Utah.
[1:31:17] Provo Justice Court is one of the larger
[1:31:21] I know it's one of the larger, if not
[1:31:22] the largest,
[1:31:24] single-judge
[1:31:25] Justice Courts in the state. Last year,
[1:31:27] we handled
[1:31:29] about 11,000 cases.
[1:31:32] You can imagine, there's only 365 days
[1:31:34] in a year, of which I think there's 260
[1:31:37] that we're open.
[1:31:38] So, when you think about it that way,
[1:31:41] we handled over 1,900 misdemeanor
[1:31:43] criminal cases,
[1:31:45] uh over 2,200 small claims cases,
[1:31:49] and uh over 6,600 traffic cases.
[1:31:53] So, the police are out doing their job
[1:31:55] to keep Provo streets safe.
[1:31:58] So, we are pretty busy. Uh we We a large
[1:32:00] calendar this morning of
[1:32:03] uh over 70 cases, and we have a calendar
[1:32:06] this afternoon. So, I appreciate you
[1:32:07] letting me go first cuz I need to get
[1:32:09] back.
[1:32:10] I don't have any pressing concerns that
[1:32:13] I need to bring up with this body.
[1:32:15] Um if there are any questions or
[1:32:17] concerns that you have for me, feel free
[1:32:19] to ask. I know this is meant to be a
[1:32:22] short thing.
[1:32:24] But any member of this council, the
[1:32:25] mayor's office, the mayor
[1:32:28] is welcome to come to the justice court
[1:32:30] anytime. If you have issues, if you have
[1:32:32] questions, if you have concerns,
[1:32:35] feel free to talk to
[1:32:37] me directly, Rhiannon directly,
[1:32:40] and we'll respond, and you are again
[1:32:43] invited out to the justice court anytime
[1:32:45] you want to come.
[1:32:46] I want to thank uh each member of the
[1:32:49] council for the support that is given to
[1:32:52] the court,
[1:32:53] and for your dedicated service to the
[1:32:55] citizens of Provo.
[1:32:57] I want you to know that
[1:32:59] it doesn't go unnoticed.
[1:33:02] Um
[1:33:03] Again, I thank you for your time.
[1:33:05] I don't We have time for questions. If
[1:33:07] you have questions, feel free to ask.
[1:33:09] But Well, I would just say that with
[1:33:10] your efficiency, we should be thanking
[1:33:12] you. Okay. That's That's remarkable. Oh.
[1:33:15] Uh Scott's been out to see how we work,
[1:33:18] and
[1:33:20] if you have any questions, you can ask
[1:33:21] Scott too. He can give you an unbiased
[1:33:25] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Judge.
[1:33:26] Any questions for Judge before we go?
[1:33:28] All right. Thank you.
[1:33:29] >> you very much.
[1:33:34] Thank you, Judge.
[1:33:37] Uh just to go through uh administrative
[1:33:39] services, if we can turn to the next
[1:33:42] page. It goes to right here. Okay.
[1:33:45] Let's see if I can
[1:33:47] There we go. So, administrative services
[1:33:51] um
[1:33:52] uh includes these six uh divisions. So,
[1:33:54] city recorder, cybersecurity,
[1:33:57] facilities, finance, information
[1:34:00] systems, and then justice court that we
[1:34:02] just heard from. Most of the services we
[1:34:06] provide are focused internally.
[1:34:09] Justice Court obviously is is more
[1:34:11] external and City Recorder is a mix. We
[1:34:14] all have customers that are internal and
[1:34:16] external, but most of them are internal
[1:34:19] services that we provide in
[1:34:20] administrative services.
[1:34:22] In terms of the questions that were
[1:34:25] asked by the council, unfunded and
[1:34:27] underfunded needs, we'll talk about
[1:34:29] those on the next slide when we discuss
[1:34:32] supplemental requests for the FY27
[1:34:35] budget.
[1:34:36] Fee changes, there are no fee change
[1:34:39] request within administrative services.
[1:34:43] Requests that will increase ongoing
[1:34:45] operation expense, again, we'll talk
[1:34:47] about those in the supplemental
[1:34:49] requests.
[1:34:50] And then in terms of current budget
[1:34:52] constraints, at this point in time there
[1:34:54] are none.
[1:34:55] And council budget priorities, we always
[1:34:59] welcome and hope that we can be very
[1:35:01] helpful to the council in providing any
[1:35:04] kind of information information or
[1:35:05] support that they need for that you need
[1:35:09] for your priorities.
[1:35:11] In terms of cybersecurity and when we
[1:35:13] talk about supplemental request, we have
[1:35:16] a couple of requests that that we're
[1:35:18] asking for this year.
[1:35:20] Um
[1:35:21] The first one is contractual increases
[1:35:23] and these are are are simply contracts
[1:35:26] that we have in place,
[1:35:28] primarily Arctic Wolf that we use
[1:35:31] to secure our networks.
[1:35:34] And we have contractual agreement we
[1:35:36] have a you know,
[1:35:38] terms in those agreements where there's
[1:35:40] escalation in price on a yearly basis
[1:35:42] and so that's what that $20,200
[1:35:45] is.
[1:35:46] Um the other area that we are requesting
[1:35:50] additional support in cybersecurity
[1:35:53] is we would like to add an analyst.
[1:35:55] Right now, we have one person, uh,
[1:35:58] Tyler, who's with us today, and, uh,
[1:36:01] he's just exceptional in terms of
[1:36:03] monitoring monitoring our network not
[1:36:06] only during normal business hours here,
[1:36:10] but offsite, uh, weekends, vacations,
[1:36:14] sick leave, you name it. We would like
[1:36:16] to be able to have a little more backup
[1:36:19] there. Uh, unfortunately, the the bad
[1:36:22] guys, uh, aren't letting up their
[1:36:24] pressure at all. In fact, it only
[1:36:26] intensifies with each passing day, each
[1:36:29] passing year, each passing, you know,
[1:36:31] global, uh, event that takes place.
[1:36:35] And so, that's one area that we would
[1:36:37] like to increase the budget. In terms of
[1:36:40] information systems, we have contractual
[1:36:42] increases, uh, and those primarily
[1:36:45] relate to existing,
[1:36:47] uh,
[1:36:48] software that we have in place, OnBase,
[1:36:51] Cayenta, and CityView.
[1:36:53] And so, those increases total 18,960.
[1:36:57] Uh, last year, we implemented a new
[1:36:59] website, uh, for the city, and the
[1:37:03] ongoing support of that website is
[1:37:06] 124,000.
[1:37:08] Uh, and that's what you see that
[1:37:10] increase there for. And then, we have,
[1:37:12] um,
[1:37:13] some hardware, central disk storage
[1:37:16] infrastructure that that provides
[1:37:18] support for throughout the city, uh,
[1:37:21] including public safety, and, uh, the
[1:37:24] equipment itself is starting to get
[1:37:27] to be near end of life. Uh, and so, we
[1:37:30] need to replace that, and that's
[1:37:32] 410,000. Now, the 410,000,
[1:37:35] we're still working on that to see if
[1:37:38] there's ways that we can, um, spread
[1:37:41] that out over a few years, um, if there
[1:37:44] are some of it some of the equipment
[1:37:46] that we can replace and some we can
[1:37:48] defer uh, but in total it's the 410,000.
[1:37:52] And then Justice Court again we have
[1:37:54] contractual increases. The two primary
[1:37:57] drivers there are the building that the
[1:38:00] Justice Court is in is leased and in
[1:38:04] that lease agreement there are increases
[1:38:06] on an annual basis. The other item is
[1:38:09] that we contract for security services
[1:38:13] at the Justice Court and so
[1:38:16] some of it in in that 17,908
[1:38:21] relates to the security.
[1:38:23] So those are
[1:38:24] >> So is that the the deputies you talked
[1:38:26] about the contracted Yeah, so when you
[1:38:28] go to the Justice Court they're not
[1:38:30] Provo City police officers. They're
[1:38:34] it's a security service that my understanding is and Rihanna can
[1:38:39] talk to it more than I can but that the
[1:38:42] Justice Court has found that to be a
[1:38:46] very efficient and cost-effective way
[1:38:49] and a secure way to provide security at
[1:38:52] the Justice Court. Is that fair to say
[1:38:54] Rihanna? Yes and having
[1:38:57] we have
[1:38:58] Provo City police officers at the door
[1:39:00] screening people or handling security it
[1:39:03] creates this conflict of interest if
[1:39:05] it's the same old system of shaking
[1:39:07] people down.
[1:39:12] Um
[1:39:13] so
[1:39:15] I won't go through every one of these. I
[1:39:17] will say that the department we just
[1:39:20] have excellent employees in
[1:39:21] administrative services and the the
[1:39:23] accomplishments are numerous and
[1:39:25] significant. Um
[1:39:28] and and this is just a very very highest
[1:39:32] level of kind of what has been
[1:39:34] accomplished over the past year. In City
[1:39:37] Recorder
[1:39:39] Heidi earned certified municipal clerk
[1:39:42] and Utah certified clerk designations
[1:39:44] both last year.
[1:39:47] Implemented a number of improvements in
[1:39:49] document management. Did 24 employee
[1:39:51] newsletters
[1:39:54] and was elected to positions with the
[1:39:56] Central Utah Recorders Association and
[1:39:58] Utah Municipal Clerks Association. So I
[1:40:01] think it's fair to say that that we have
[1:40:03] a recorder that's very very active in
[1:40:05] the in the recorder community and that
[1:40:08] brings a lot of value to Provo City.
[1:40:10] In terms of cybersecurity,
[1:40:13] provided incident response services
[1:40:15] 24/7,
[1:40:17] risk and advisory support for multiple
[1:40:19] application and system reviews,
[1:40:22] 66 technology projects
[1:40:25] that improve security
[1:40:27] and updated strategies. Continues Tyler
[1:40:30] works on
[1:40:31] consistently staying ahead of the bad
[1:40:33] guys and does an excellent job of that.
[1:40:36] Key accomplishments for facilities,
[1:40:39] completed an emergency sewer line
[1:40:41] replacement at fire station three,
[1:40:44] did upgrades to service now which is a
[1:40:45] software that
[1:40:48] facilities utilizes to provide service
[1:40:50] throughout the city to all the
[1:40:52] departments, did a remodel of station 26
[1:40:55] kitchen, new construction at the
[1:40:56] airport, stucco at the Peaks Arena
[1:41:00] and started a five-year elevator
[1:41:02] replacement plan at the library. Our our
[1:41:04] elevators at the library are nearing
[1:41:06] end-of-life.
[1:41:08] Finance,
[1:41:10] received the Government Finance Officers
[1:41:12] Association Distinguished Budget Award
[1:41:16] and then also we received GFOA
[1:41:21] recognition for the annual comprehensive
[1:41:23] financial report and popular annual
[1:41:25] financial reports.
[1:41:28] We
[1:41:29] received a clean audit opinion on our
[1:41:31] audited financial statements. We issued
[1:41:33] wastewater revenue bonds this year and
[1:41:36] completed a significant a significant
[1:41:38] Kyenta software upgrade uh in
[1:41:40] conjunction with customer service
[1:41:43] uh and our information systems group.
[1:41:46] Uh information systems received 20
[1:41:49] 25 Utah Information Technology
[1:41:51] Excellence Award, uh the 2025 Visionary
[1:41:54] Digital Inclusion Trailblazer Award, the
[1:41:57] ArcGIS Open Data Hub uh they launched,
[1:42:01] and again they they also supported 66
[1:42:04] technology projects. Uh and and a very
[1:42:07] significant project is they launched the
[1:42:10] redesigned provo.gov uh website.
[1:42:13] And then finally the Justice Court
[1:42:16] completed 88% of traffic cases within 90
[1:42:19] days, 89% of criminal cases within 180
[1:42:22] days, and 98% of small claim claims
[1:42:26] cases uh with within 270 days.
[1:42:30] Um so as you can see,
[1:42:32] we provide a very diverse set of
[1:42:34] services, but uh
[1:42:36] um I think we've done that in an
[1:42:38] excellent fashion and plan to do that
[1:42:40] again this year.
[1:42:42] So I just asked council if you have any
[1:42:43] questions or
[1:42:48] Any questions?
[1:42:51] Councilor, sorry I couldn't see you.
[1:42:54] Um I just have a couple questions on the
[1:42:57] servers that you you have. I'm just just
[1:43:01] curious why why do we have it on prem?
[1:43:03] Is that like required by law?
[1:43:05] I'm going to let Josh address that.
[1:43:08] So specifically we're talking about the
[1:43:10] disk that's on prem. Uh we have a lot of
[1:43:13] services that are actually still here.
[1:43:14] We are required by law to maintain
[1:43:17] localized server rooms in the material
[1:43:19] scoring and animal dispatch center. So
[1:43:21] we look at the cost of disk in the cloud
[1:43:24] compared to this disk that we run
[1:43:26] locally, it's
[1:43:28] way less cost to the citizens of Provo.
[1:43:30] So it almost doubles our cost to If were
[1:43:32] to move it all to the cloud.
[1:43:34] What do what do we have on the cloud?
[1:43:36] We have a various set of services.
[1:43:38] Seeing things like Workday's cloud-based
[1:43:40] services. We have a very hybrid level
[1:43:42] approach. But each time we look at the
[1:43:44] actual costs over a 7-year cost outlay,
[1:43:46] we compare that to say if it makes sense
[1:43:50] to move to the cloud, we do so. Okay.
[1:43:53] In this case, it just Yeah, the it
[1:43:55] doesn't
[1:43:56] make sense monetarily.
[1:43:58] All right, good question. So, the 410
[1:44:00] servers, is that a complete
[1:44:03] replacement or is that one
[1:44:05] So, in this case specifically, disk
[1:44:07] space storage, not necessarily the
[1:44:09] servers themselves. So, if you go back
[1:44:11] in time, each time you've done like a
[1:44:13] one-time allocation, then these piece of
[1:44:16] the hardware we have in form some mix
[1:44:19] between spinning disk and volatile RAM.
[1:44:22] They are under support contracts and
[1:44:24] they end up going to end of life into
[1:44:25] support approximately year seven. So,
[1:44:28] when we start reaching that point, we
[1:44:29] can no longer get emergency repair
[1:44:32] services. We have to look at an
[1:44:33] alternative platform. And again, so the
[1:44:35] cost of an extended support contract in
[1:44:37] comparison to doing a replacement, which
[1:44:40] also just covers replacement of disk,
[1:44:42] but we also see an extreme growth curve
[1:44:46] and how much disk we need, so we try to
[1:44:48] cover that at around the 6-7 year mark.
[1:44:50] We are now at 7-7 and 1/2 years. So, we
[1:44:53] were able to extend it a little bit, but
[1:44:55] we are at that spot where we need to
[1:44:56] replace the disk. So, that's helpful. My
[1:44:59] question was what percentage of our
[1:45:02] of of that capacity is being replaced by
[1:45:05] 410? Complete replacement or Oh, yeah,
[1:45:08] it's it's 100%.
[1:45:09] >> 100%. Correct.
[1:45:11] Thank you. And we couple with that,
[1:45:13] there are some systems that have
[1:45:15] localized disk on the server themselves.
[1:45:17] So, this is the the primary storage
[1:45:19] part. Yeah.
[1:45:21] Uh related question I had was on the on
[1:45:24] your line item that said
[1:45:26] forget the exact word, it was like
[1:45:27] website hosting and other digital
[1:45:29] services. I was just curious what those
[1:45:31] other digital services were as part of
[1:45:32] the 100 and something thousand
[1:45:35] 124,000.
[1:45:37] I can take this as well if you'd like.
[1:45:38] Yes, please. So, the the council was
[1:45:41] part of this project within RFP for a
[1:45:43] digital platform which is the old
[1:45:45] website was not ADA compliant and it
[1:45:47] also did not have any online services
[1:45:51] uh that would let people interact
[1:45:52] directly with us. We also had a desire
[1:45:55] by the council to have a mobile
[1:45:56] app which the mobile app is included
[1:45:58] here. Also, if any of you use
[1:46:00] SeeClickFix which is 311's report an
[1:46:02] issue type service, that's included in
[1:46:04] that platform. We went with a product
[1:46:06] called CivicPlus which puts all under
[1:46:07] that one
[1:46:09] platform. And so, we did is we had some
[1:46:11] one-time funding that carried us through
[1:46:13] for the first portion of it. So, we're
[1:46:14] going to have that spot where we have
[1:46:15] ongoing funding to continue that
[1:46:17] service.
[1:46:19] Does that answer that question for you?
[1:46:20] >> is the 124 an annual it's like an annual
[1:46:23] SaaS service?
[1:46:24] >> And this is a quick version of it. This
[1:46:26] is 100% private. Okay. And that would
[1:46:28] continue? Correct. It would continue.
[1:46:30] It's ongoing.
[1:46:33] Thank you. Thanks.
[1:46:35] All right. Any other questions?
[1:46:39] Thank you.
[1:46:40] >> much.
[1:46:44] All right. Next, we have a the 2027
[1:46:47] budget for public works. It's being
[1:46:49] presented by Jimmy Knight, the public
[1:46:51] works administration division director.
[1:46:56] Who now?
[1:46:57] He's coming.
[1:46:57] >> Oh. Huh. Okay.
[1:47:10] Thanks for this opportunity. We're uh
[1:47:12] going to go through the public works
[1:47:13] budgets.
[1:47:15] I've got it organized by um division of
[1:47:17] our department.
[1:47:20] Uh we'll start with water and waste
[1:47:22] water, which is our water resources
[1:47:23] division.
[1:47:28] The, um,
[1:47:30] the budget's broken down here for each
[1:47:32] fund. Uh, the water fund is $21 million
[1:47:34] revenue
[1:47:36] broken up by these four sect- uh, three
[1:47:38] sections and the CIP.
[1:47:40] And the waste water as well at $28
[1:47:42] million
[1:47:44] with two operating sections and, uh, CIP
[1:47:47] expenditures there.
[1:47:51] Um, I I I wanted to note that the water admin and the waste water
[1:47:56] reclamation budgets also include, um,
[1:47:59] debt service payments.
[1:48:01] So, it might might not compare with some
[1:48:04] of the other operating funds where it's
[1:48:05] not just the cost of the employees and
[1:48:07] their, um,
[1:48:08] their supplies. It's
[1:48:10] those additional expenses.
[1:48:13] So, in water resources in FY26, the
[1:48:16] current year, we had asked for, uh,
[1:48:18] increase for
[1:48:20] the new sewer treatment plant coming
[1:48:21] online and be online for 12 months.
[1:48:24] And, uh, so we're we're currently
[1:48:26] through going through that now and it
[1:48:28] looks like we've we've budgeted
[1:48:29] sufficiently. We're still,
[1:48:31] um, learning, uh, as we go about, you
[1:48:34] know, seasonality and things like that
[1:48:36] of the of the treatment plant.
[1:48:39] Um, but looks like we we budgeted
[1:48:41] sufficiently with that request. We're
[1:48:42] not asking for additional money there in
[1:48:45] reclamation in '27.
[1:48:48] Uh, in '27 in these two divisions or at
[1:48:51] least two funds, water fund, uh, we're
[1:48:53] asking for
[1:48:55] drinking water plant staff and operating
[1:48:57] budget.
[1:48:58] So, we have our drinking water plant
[1:49:00] that is anticipated to be finished, uh,
[1:49:02] December or January.
[1:49:04] And so, we're uh, requesting two
[1:49:06] positions to be added in July to be there as the plant gets finished
[1:49:12] as, um, installers are there putting in
[1:49:14] the equipment, learning from them to
[1:49:16] make sure we know how it runs.
[1:49:18] Uh being prepared for when it comes
[1:49:19] online and then two others or three
[1:49:21] others in January
[1:49:24] once the plant comes online.
[1:49:27] Um Jimmy, is this the one for you?
[1:49:30] Yes. Okay.
[1:49:33] Yeah, so that it's going up very fast.
[1:49:35] Um it's getting enclosed and um
[1:49:38] we're excited about its progress. We're
[1:49:40] um just anticipating now in the 27
[1:49:43] budget to start staffing it and running the plant.
[1:49:47] Uh in distribution, we're requesting an
[1:49:49] increase to the overtime budget based on
[1:49:51] historical use. You know, that's uh
[1:49:53] overtime budget is used on
[1:49:56] um
[1:49:57] break response and you know, on call for
[1:50:01] um
[1:50:03] for any calls that we get about the
[1:50:05] water system on on off hours.
[1:50:08] And the wastewater fund, we're
[1:50:09] requesting a full-time wastewater
[1:50:11] collections operator. We feel like with
[1:50:13] an additional person, we can do a better
[1:50:15] job of um
[1:50:16] maintaining the sewer system, the sewer
[1:50:18] collection system, the pipes,
[1:50:20] and the manholes.
[1:50:22] Um we would anticipate an additional
[1:50:24] person being able to focus more on
[1:50:25] repairs
[1:50:27] uh of that equipment or of that
[1:50:29] infrastructure
[1:50:31] and um
[1:50:32] continuing the other work we do to
[1:50:35] keep the pipes flowing
[1:50:37] and uh respond to any backups.
[1:50:41] And also a similar collections overtime
[1:50:42] budget
[1:50:44] uh requests based on historical actuals.
[1:50:50] As far as fee changes in water resources
[1:50:52] in the water fund, um I've circled here
[1:50:54] the option three that was selected by
[1:50:56] the council
[1:50:58] in uh June of last year,
[1:51:01] which um
[1:51:03] anticipates a 6% rate increase in FY 27.
[1:51:08] In the current calendar year,
[1:51:10] we had some questions that we responded
[1:51:12] to about um how that would be applied to
[1:51:14] the council. It would be
[1:51:16] uh done to each component of the rate
[1:51:19] resulting in a 6% revenue increase
[1:51:21] overall.
[1:51:23] And um
[1:51:25] we had a question also about how those tiers have people have
[1:51:29] responded to those tiers so far and
[1:51:33] uh we don't have a lot of that
[1:51:34] information yet because the the tiers
[1:51:36] went into effect in September. So, we're
[1:51:38] we'll we'll learn more about that as we
[1:51:40] go through the summer months coming up.
[1:51:44] Councilor Boden.
[1:51:46] Jimmy, do we have like a hard dollar
[1:51:47] figure on which how much that's going to
[1:51:50] raise for each one of the tiers?
[1:51:52] Yeah, do we have a picture of the rates?
[1:51:55] Like tier one's going to be $5, tier
[1:51:58] two's going to be $10, tier three's
[1:52:00] going to be $15. Do you have
[1:52:02] I have that, but not in the
[1:52:04] slides. Can you send that to us? I can.
[1:52:07] Thank you. You want to know what the
[1:52:08] dollar amount of each tier We want to
[1:52:11] know what the dollar amount of each tier
[1:52:12] >> chart what this 6% looks like after.
[1:52:14] Yes, I have that.
[1:52:19] So, in the waste in the water fund,
[1:52:21] there's no other um fees that we're
[1:52:23] anticipating
[1:52:24] changing. In wastewater, we are looking
[1:52:26] to add a
[1:52:27] um
[1:52:28] two fees related to
[1:52:30] sewage that gets dropped off at the
[1:52:31] plant by waste haulers, people who drive
[1:52:33] the trucks that um
[1:52:35] that clean out septic systems
[1:52:37] typically and um
[1:52:40] making sure that we're recovering the
[1:52:41] costs of our employees being there after
[1:52:43] hours
[1:52:44] or when there's excessive um debris in
[1:52:48] the in the sewage.
[1:52:50] I'm trying to find a word a different
[1:52:52] word than sewage, but I'm not going to
[1:52:54] go.
[1:52:54] It's okay. We have strong stomachs here.
[1:52:57] Mhm.
[1:52:59] Um and then here's a list of our water
[1:53:01] some of our key accomplishments this
[1:53:03] year.
[1:53:04] I'm not going to go through each one and
[1:53:06] but um happy to answer any questions if you've had a chance to see these.
[1:53:13] Uh here's the wastewater fund.
[1:53:18] So our next division is public services
[1:53:21] which includes the streets operating
[1:53:22] budget which is
[1:53:25] a $3 million operating budget.
[1:53:28] Not revenue generating.
[1:53:30] Uh storm water fund $6.5 million which
[1:53:33] is uh
[1:53:35] a storm water fee on the utility bill
[1:53:37] that funds uh 2.8 million in operations
[1:53:39] and 3.3 of capital projects.
[1:53:43] Sanitation fund has $7 million of
[1:53:45] revenue which primarily goes for the
[1:53:48] operations. It's not a capital intensive
[1:53:51] operation. Um
[1:53:53] it's mostly just picking up the cans and
[1:53:55] operating the compost yard.
[1:53:59] Which is a enormous task.
[1:54:02] I didn't want to downplay that.
[1:54:05] Um
[1:54:06] and then the vehicle replacement uh
[1:54:08] vehicle maintenance fund
[1:54:10] where our fleet
[1:54:11] technicians and mechanics they keep
[1:54:15] maintain all the city fleet.
[1:54:17] And then the vehicle replacement fund
[1:54:18] which I'll get into a little bit later
[1:54:20] where we purchase the vehicles for the
[1:54:22] city.
[1:54:23] Do you know what I saw? I don't know if
[1:54:25] this is the right time to ask, but
[1:54:26] something about the vehicles you
[1:54:27] mentioned that you're just going to
[1:54:30] Was it garbage trucks? Just lease them
[1:54:32] every year and sell them or something?
[1:54:34] Can you explain how that's more
[1:54:36] financially sensible?
[1:54:38] Yeah, so what the the fire truck well
[1:54:41] Is it fire trucks? It No, it's it's
[1:54:43] sanitation. Okay.
[1:54:45] Warren, do you want to The fire trucks.
[1:54:46] It's probably have better to have an
[1:54:48] expert explain that and the sanitation
[1:54:50] maintenance costs that we're trying to
[1:54:51] avoid.
[1:54:52] So there is a tremendous amount of
[1:54:56] dollar figures for you, but there are a
[1:54:57] tremendous amount of labor
[1:54:59] um and
[1:55:00] cost of parts to go into the sanitation
[1:55:03] trucks to keep them running.
[1:55:04] Um
[1:55:05] They are vehicles that are become
[1:55:08] commercial tested. They are full
[1:55:09] throttle, break, full throttle, break
[1:55:11] about 1,800 times a day.
[1:55:15] And they get battled and just destroyed.
[1:55:18] They require a great deal of maintenance
[1:55:21] and repair. By replacing them on a
[1:55:24] regular basis every 12 months, we are
[1:55:27] introducing a new vehicle into the fleet
[1:55:30] that does not have as many cycles on it
[1:55:33] and it will not have as many breakdowns.
[1:55:36] So, I know it sounds crazy to say, "Hey,
[1:55:39] we're going to buy a brand new truck
[1:55:40] every year."
[1:55:41] But realistically, if you look at the
[1:55:44] maintenance and repair costs to what it
[1:55:46] would be to be able to cycle one out,
[1:55:49] there's quite a bit difference. And I
[1:55:50] apologize, I'm not prepared to tell you
[1:55:52] that exactly number. I didn't have that
[1:55:53] information. I'm sorry. And so, we just
[1:55:55] sell one vehicle every year, too? Is
[1:55:57] that the idea?
[1:55:57] >> Yes.
[1:55:58] How many of the sanitation trucks
[1:56:01] do we have in the fleet?
[1:56:03] As far as residential residential
[1:56:04] garbage cans?
[1:56:08] I believe, off the top of my head, we
[1:56:09] have three
[1:56:10] vehicles for roll-off containers. We
[1:56:13] have two front loads.
[1:56:16] And then as far as residential cans, I believe we have 16.
[1:56:22] But again, I would have to double-check
[1:56:23] that one. The 16 would do the blue,
[1:56:26] green, and black bins? Correct. Okay.
[1:56:29] Yes. And those are historically the
[1:56:31] vehicles you've had the most problems
[1:56:32] with.
[1:56:33] Yes, that is that is correct. I mean,
[1:56:36] every vehicle has its its problems. However,
[1:56:40] we do spend the vast majority of our our
[1:56:43] labor
[1:56:44] inside our shop working and keeping
[1:56:46] these on the road and keeping them up.
[1:56:48] So, you're not technically just using
[1:56:49] them a year. You're saying every year
[1:56:51] you're replacing one, which means it's
[1:56:52] like every 16 years or 20 years.
[1:56:54] >> So, what we're doing is is you purchase
[1:56:56] a new vehicle, that vehicle a year later
[1:57:00] they'll buy it back. They'll buy it back at 85 to 90% of that
[1:57:05] value. Okay. They're a very still a very
[1:57:07] high commodity item, so there's a a lot
[1:57:09] of huge market out there. So, we can get
[1:57:12] a lot of them back. So, you're only
[1:57:13] paying that small difference between the
[1:57:15] new and what you get that buyback at.
[1:57:18] And that's less than we're paying now.
[1:57:19] >> And that is that cost that cost
[1:57:21] difference is substantially less than
[1:57:23] what we pay on an ongoing maintenance.
[1:57:26] Cuz typically we'll replace a a
[1:57:28] sanitation sanitation truck one truck
[1:57:31] every year or two every year through
[1:57:33] that whole 16.
[1:57:35] And that becomes cuz then we're now
[1:57:37] running trucks that are 7, 8, 9 old and
[1:57:40] those older trucks are just constantly
[1:57:43] >> So, now are we running them all one year
[1:57:45] then? That's what Eventually we're just
[1:57:48] doing We're cycling that out. So,
[1:57:50] eventually all the people have basically
[1:57:52] new trucks coming in every year. And
[1:57:55] then we just pay that cost difference
[1:57:57] between the new and then the buyback.
[1:57:59] >> Okay. Cool garbage trucks.
[1:58:02] Very cool.
[1:58:03] Thank you. My tax would save us.
[1:58:08] As far as supplemental requests, um in streets we're requesting two
[1:58:12] full-time streets maintenance workers
[1:58:15] to do some work that is currently being
[1:58:16] done by contractors
[1:58:18] that we feel we can do more efficiently
[1:58:20] in-house. And by having these uh
[1:58:22] additional employees
[1:58:24] when they're not working on the concrete
[1:58:25] removal and trans trans trench patching
[1:58:29] they will be able to be used for the
[1:58:31] other services that streets provide such
[1:58:33] as um snow plowing in the winter.
[1:58:36] Um allowing us to improve that response.
[1:58:40] So, those would be funded by funded by
[1:58:42] existing funds um that would just be
[1:58:44] moved to positions instead of
[1:58:48] paying for the outside work.
[1:58:50] In stormwater we're requesting a
[1:58:52] increase to the part-time budget by
[1:58:54] $7,000 again based on historical usage.
[1:58:58] The fleet fund we've we've talked with
[1:59:00] fire about um
[1:59:03] the impact to the general fund as well
[1:59:05] as
[1:59:06] uh the fleet fund for an emergency
[1:59:09] vehicle technician additional
[1:59:12] emergency vehicle technician
[1:59:14] which we're continuing to work with uh
[1:59:15] with them and with administration to to
[1:59:17] talk through alternatives and and
[1:59:19] impacts potential impacts of that.
[1:59:22] In sanitation we're asking for a
[1:59:24] full-time scale house attendant position
[1:59:26] which would be a full-time person at the
[1:59:28] compost yard
[1:59:30] which would enable us to have it open 5
[1:59:32] days a week instead of two
[1:59:34] and increase um the the availability of
[1:59:37] other services such as uh another
[1:59:39] recycling drop-off and potentially glass
[1:59:41] drop-off.
[1:59:44] And this would be funded by um
[1:59:46] a change to the
[1:59:48] uh what's we refer to as the rooftop fee
[1:59:51] which is a dollar per
[1:59:52] uh
[1:59:54] per account. We're looking to change
[1:59:55] that to be $1 per
[1:59:59] uh
[2:00:00] residential household.
[2:00:02] And so right now we have some accounts
[2:00:04] that are like for an HOA where we have
[2:00:06] 200 garbage cans it's only one account
[2:00:08] they get charged $1
[2:00:10] where a single family home is also only
[2:00:11] get is also getting charged a dollar. We
[2:00:13] want to make sure that
[2:00:15] that's being distributed appropriately.
[2:00:17] I have a quick question.
[2:00:19] >> Yes. Um going back to the supplemental
[2:00:21] request on the compost yard person. Yes.
[2:00:24] So on the bit about recycling it
[2:00:27] mentioned the possibility of moving the
[2:00:31] recycling roll-off from over by the fire
[2:00:33] station so we wouldn't have it there
[2:00:35] anymore.
[2:00:37] It's much more convenient to get to that
[2:00:39] in the middle of the city than it is to
[2:00:41] go down to the transfer yard or
[2:00:43] something.
[2:00:44] Can we keep both?
[2:00:46] I think we're looking at alternatives
[2:00:47] for for locations. So far, yes. We are
[2:00:50] to keep it there. Okay. All right. We're looking at different things for
[2:00:54] recycling. It's just so challenging cuz
[2:00:57] anywhere we set it
[2:00:59] the the amount of overtime, we just get a
[2:01:03] lot of illegal dumping. And it becomes a challenge. We're trying
[2:01:07] to set them in places that are strategic
[2:01:10] that they can have some kind of fire
[2:01:12] safety. Maybe we're going to try it
[2:01:13] potentially to see if you set it next to
[2:01:15] a fire station maybe that will
[2:01:17] discourage people from Do we get illegal
[2:01:20] dumping with the glass recycling? Not
[2:01:22] there because it's But often times what
[2:01:24] you see is somebody they'll they'll
[2:01:26] throw some tires there or you know, just
[2:01:28] set a tire there. And it's incredible.
[2:01:31] Yeah.
[2:01:33] What people what they do. It's so
[2:01:35] That's the challenge we try to balance.
[2:01:37] So, but right now we're trying to keep
[2:01:39] it and then try to expand it, but
[2:01:42] still resolve that issue.
[2:01:43] >> Okay. I will say that the glass
[2:01:45] recycling is one of my favorite errands
[2:01:48] to do. Such a great stress reliever to
[2:01:50] go and like throw the glass. Right now,
[2:01:53] I would say Okay.
[2:01:56] But if the property sells and it gets
[2:01:59] redeveloped, then we got to rethink what
[2:02:01] we want to do with that. So, there may
[2:02:03] be opportunity to incorporate it with
[2:02:05] the development. We're starting to look
[2:02:06] at maybe some standards on there.
[2:02:09] Um and incorporating those in our
[2:02:10] development standards for recycling as
[2:02:12] part of the development process. And in
[2:02:15] commercial spaces on that, do you mean
[2:02:16] take through the space? We'll probably
[2:02:18] come back to council for those
[2:02:21] code changes or possibility to look at
[2:02:23] that too as to how the commercial
[2:02:25] businesses they need to put recycling
[2:02:27] facilities on there. Okay. On our
[2:02:29] property so. Okay. Thank you.
[2:02:36] Um I think the last item was the
[2:02:37] sanitation overtime budget which um
[2:02:40] was concluded in supplemental with with
[2:02:42] other over times based on um
[2:02:44] historical
[2:02:45] usage.
[2:02:48] Um and then here's a description of the
[2:02:50] fee that I tried to explain um
[2:02:54] that would help us fund the the
[2:02:57] position of the composture.
[2:02:58] Just out of curiosity, why didn't we do
[2:03:00] this 6 years ago?
[2:03:03] Or last year or year before? I mean, why
[2:03:05] are we doing it
[2:03:07] This seems like such a no-brainer. I'm
[2:03:08] just wondering.
[2:03:10] Good question. Shame you have a
[2:03:11] response? Well, over time when this was
[2:03:13] first implemented in 2011, it was per
[2:03:15] account.
[2:03:16] And so the thought process is we would
[2:03:18] be capturing all the residential houses,
[2:03:21] but over time since that time every
[2:03:23] account that was set up you would think
[2:03:25] that would be tied to a residential home
[2:03:27] or residential unit. What we found is it
[2:03:30] wasn't. So you have all these HOAs that
[2:03:32] come in and they have 150 houses, they
[2:03:35] have one account which is the HOA
[2:03:37] account, and so you're only charged one
[2:03:39] day one And so over time that has just
[2:03:41] like we've realized what it was intended
[2:03:43] was for all residential units. So what
[2:03:45] we're going to do is we're going to fix
[2:03:47] that instead of an account it'll be tied
[2:03:49] to like for instance the UTF it'll be
[2:03:52] tied to the power meter. That way it'll
[2:03:54] capture all those little HOA's, all
[2:03:56] those little things. Uh bravo.
[2:03:59] Lo- love it.
[2:04:01] Councilor Bobden.
[2:04:03] I know it's just a dollar. Is it dollar
[2:04:05] a month? A dollar a month?
[2:04:07] >> Okay, but for me
[2:04:09] I don't have a green waste can.
[2:04:12] I don't get mulch from the composting
[2:04:15] station.
[2:04:16] So explain to me why someone like me
[2:04:19] would be charged a dollar, $30 a year
[2:04:22] for a service I don't even use. And it's
[2:04:24] not just the composting, it's also for
[2:04:26] some of it's recycling. We have all
[2:04:28] these additional costs that we don't tie
[2:04:30] to any specific
[2:04:31] >> But I don't even have a recycling bin. A
[2:04:33] can. We also it's also help our um
[2:04:36] spring and fall cleanup.
[2:04:38] Our spring and fall cleanup has gotten
[2:04:41] massive and that is a benefit for the
[2:04:43] entire community.
[2:04:45] Um we we ask people to use the the the
[2:04:48] spring and fall cleanup.
[2:04:50] Um
[2:04:51] there we're not sure how how to
[2:04:53] recapture that. This is a long way to to
[2:04:55] do it. Um that's one of the big ones. We
[2:04:57] just keep expanding all these Other one
[2:04:59] is My Hometown. If you know My Hometown,
[2:05:02] I go help
[2:05:03] you know, the the various communities
[2:05:05] and they bring those things in. That has
[2:05:07] been a very successful
[2:05:09] um
[2:05:10] implementation of, you know, helping
[2:05:12] communities. That has just gotten so big
[2:05:14] and we have all the costs associated.
[2:05:16] This has helped helped with that cost.
[2:05:20] Do you need to clean up, Becky?
[2:05:22] Well, I I have I have a vehicle that I
[2:05:23] can do that, but I mean, I can imagine
[2:05:25] people coming to me and saying, "I don't
[2:05:27] even have a truck, so I can't even use
[2:05:28] the spring cleanup." And so now I'm
[2:05:32] paying for other people to clean up when
[2:05:34] I can't even clean up. So I'm just
[2:05:36] trying to figure out how do I explain
[2:05:38] this to a resident of why they're paying
[2:05:40] $30 a year.
[2:05:42] So so If they're two good dudes, do you do you do you do you do you do
[2:05:46] You've been paying this for 6 years and
[2:05:47] you're not in HOA.
[2:05:50] So everybody The only thing we're doing
[2:05:52] now is bringing it on to people that
[2:05:54] haven't been paying it.
[2:05:56] So this won't affect you or any of your
[2:05:57] neighbors. Right. This this is bringing
[2:06:00] it to the forefront, right? So Make them
[2:06:02] aware of it. Exactly. And so it even me,
[2:06:05] I I didn't even realize I was paying a
[2:06:06] dollar a month for composting container.
[2:06:10] So anyway,
[2:06:11] Yeah, so how do I explain this to
[2:06:13] people?
[2:06:15] I I again, not everybody uses every
[2:06:18] program of the city, but you have the
[2:06:20] ability to dump all your green waste
[2:06:22] there for free. You're have the ability
[2:06:25] to use the glass. Do we allow them to do
[2:06:27] that for free at the Is it a $5 charge
[2:06:29] to come in and dump green? No, I'm just
[2:06:31] getting rid of waste.
[2:06:33] So, just residents. We don't allow
[2:06:35] commercial. And so, those are some
[2:06:38] benefits that you have when you take
[2:06:39] advantage of them or not.
[2:06:42] So, I don't know how to tell you. We
[2:06:43] want you to take advantage of it. What is the expected incremental revenue
[2:06:47] increase from this change?
[2:06:50] So, right now, they're going to be about
[2:06:52] a little over 200,000. Right now,
[2:06:53] there's about 19,000 accounts that are
[2:06:56] just really that I think once we switch
[2:06:58] that, we're we'll jump up to like 26,000
[2:07:01] accounts. So, kind of multiply that out,
[2:07:03] that's a little over 200,000.
[2:07:05] And that would be used to pay for that
[2:07:06] person. And that would pay for the the
[2:07:08] person and all those other
[2:07:10] um
[2:07:11] facilities and those operations.
[2:07:14] The other thing I would mention is that
[2:07:16] by having the compost yard, uh it allows
[2:07:18] us to divert a lot of the that waste
[2:07:20] that would typically just be in the
[2:07:23] uh landfill.
[2:07:24] Um and and be put at the compost yard
[2:07:27] instead, which I think
[2:07:29] benefits everyone. So, I don't know if
[2:07:30] that helps, but Such a good idea.
[2:07:33] I've got a a quick question about the
[2:07:35] different overtime requests or budgets.
[2:07:39] So, I'm
[2:07:42] I really appreciate that you had the
[2:07:44] actual numbers for the past few years so
[2:07:46] that we could see how what had been
[2:07:48] requested was not matching what we were
[2:07:50] actually spending. That was really useful.
[2:07:54] Um and it seems like even for like the
[2:07:56] distribution over time,
[2:07:59] it was astonishingly high in 2025. Like,
[2:08:01] why was it double anticipated cost?
[2:08:07] 2025, we had the lead and copper rule
[2:08:10] where we had to get out and verify water
[2:08:12] services throughout the community. So,
[2:08:14] we were going out looking at a major
[2:08:16] percentage of all of our water metals to find out if they're galvanized
[2:08:22] um or copper or poly. So, some of that
[2:08:25] overtime was for
[2:08:28] the service and inventory.
[2:08:30] A lot of it was still for brakes.
[2:08:33] But
[2:08:34] that that number did go over because of
[2:08:37] lift cover.
[2:08:38] Okay. That's why I wanted to show
[2:08:40] multiple years so
[2:08:42] all those aberrations could be
[2:08:44] discounted and show the overall trend
[2:08:46] regardless of those one time.
[2:08:48] And on sanitation, like it was already
[2:08:51] fairly high 148 and we're asking 200.
[2:08:55] Does it make sense to have that much in
[2:08:57] overtime budget or would it make more
[2:08:59] sense to hire more people so that you're
[2:09:01] not doing overtime?
[2:09:04] I think eventually it'll get there.
[2:09:06] Right now it still makes sense to We we
[2:09:08] did look at that. It still makes sense
[2:09:10] to do the overtime. A lot of the
[2:09:12] overtime is all these extra things that
[2:09:15] we keep adding on to help with the
[2:09:16] community, you know, street cleaning and
[2:09:18] all those kind of things. And right now
[2:09:20] it still makes sense to just do that as
[2:09:22] overtime than actually get another
[2:09:24] person. We are getting another person.
[2:09:26] One of a lot of that overtime too is our
[2:09:29] better combo share.
[2:09:30] She says we have one individual that
[2:09:32] takes that. And so you're you're
[2:09:35] the hours that it it is open in there
[2:09:37] during the week plus the weekend, you
[2:09:40] kind of need two people or else that
[2:09:42] person continues to get additional
[2:09:44] overtime. This person will actually help
[2:09:46] somewhat reduce a lot some of that
[2:09:48] overtime.
[2:09:49] Okay. Thank you.
[2:09:54] Councilor Adams. Speaking of overtime,
[2:09:57] do we have the Buckley job figures in
[2:09:59] yet?
[2:10:00] Yes.
[2:10:01] And you send those to us? Yes.
[2:10:04] Thank you.
[2:10:05] Correct.
[2:10:09] All right again, key key accomplishments
[2:10:11] in each of the sections, street, storm
[2:10:13] water, sanitation and fleet. You know,
[2:10:15] it goes into some of the details about
[2:10:17] how many cans we collect, how many
[2:10:19] pieces of equipment we maintain.
[2:10:22] Um as far as a fleet replacement, this
[2:10:25] uh represents the uh the original
[2:10:28] proposal of the fleet advisory
[2:10:30] committee,
[2:10:31] which includes uh representatives from
[2:10:32] each of the general fund departments.
[2:10:34] These are the general fund vehicles that
[2:10:36] were initially identified for
[2:10:38] replacement in the coming year. We're
[2:10:40] going to continue to meet with them and
[2:10:42] um revise that number and and uh
[2:10:46] you'll see the the end result of that
[2:10:47] when we get to the proposal when the
[2:10:49] budget's proposed.
[2:10:51] Just an example of the types of
[2:10:53] equipment that um
[2:10:56] the uh fleet division maintains and
[2:10:59] we're sure replace.
[2:11:02] Engineering, our uh last division Oh, is
[2:11:04] 15 the entire fleet of patrol cars?
[2:11:08] No.
[2:11:08] >> No. I think there's uh I think there are
[2:11:10] 122. 122. 122 patrol units. Oh, yeah.
[2:11:17] I thought they were shared.
[2:11:20] So, engineering, uh again a general fund
[2:11:22] division, um
[2:11:24] there are some revenues associated with
[2:11:25] this uh division, but I I didn't put
[2:11:27] them on here.
[2:11:29] Uh 2.5 million dollar operating budget
[2:11:31] and accomplishments, um
[2:11:34] and then at the bottom we've got uh a
[2:11:36] supplemental request for a full-time
[2:11:38] engineering technician. We're We're
[2:11:40] proposing to use existing funding for
[2:11:42] one engineer to fund two technicians.
[2:11:45] So, we wouldn't need additional budget,
[2:11:46] we just need additional full-time
[2:11:48] equivalent approved in the budget.
[2:11:56] And that may be my last one.
[2:11:59] Any other questions? Councilwoman
[2:12:01] Whitlock.
[2:12:02] Um
[2:12:03] I was luckily not part of the water rate
[2:12:06] discussion last year.
[2:12:08] Um but I do Could you go back to that
[2:12:10] slide? I just have some questions if I
[2:12:11] may ask them. We can play videos.
[2:12:15] I got pretty heavy. I know.
[2:12:18] So, I just want to make sure I'm
[2:12:19] understanding this. This is
[2:12:22] the incremental increase every single
[2:12:23] year as a schedule? Yes.
[2:12:25] >> Yes.
[2:12:26] So, we're going to well over double the
[2:12:28] cost of water over the next
[2:12:30] Yeah, I have seriously issues with this.
[2:12:33] Am I wrong about that? That's right?
[2:12:35] Okay, I have to say. Okay.
[2:12:37] Yeah, it's to pay for the pipe.
[2:12:40] That's why they're so unhappy.
[2:12:41] >> That's what they say.
[2:12:43] Do you believe that we this increase is
[2:12:46] needed? It's like a
[2:12:49] paramount need for infrastructure.
[2:12:55] Yes, we we have pipe that is corroding
[2:12:59] underground and leaking and and our
[2:13:02] crews are out every weekend
[2:13:04] repairing main lines.
[2:13:06] Um and
[2:13:08] based on the evaluation of our water
[2:13:10] system, we feel like there's a minimum
[2:13:13] level of funding to keep our water
[2:13:15] system operating the way it is,
[2:13:18] providing
[2:13:20] the greatest water quality in the state.
[2:13:22] >> You have the greatest water. And so that that
[2:13:26] increase is based on keeping that
[2:13:29] funding level to where we can maintain
[2:13:31] our system and replace our old
[2:13:33] infrastructure.
[2:13:36] So,
[2:13:38] I guess what I So, what after the
[2:13:40] schedule is done, what is our margin
[2:13:41] What are our margins become on like the
[2:13:43] incremental gallon?
[2:13:47] I'll I'll have to prepare that and get
[2:13:49] back to you. Cuz it is inter- I mean, I understand the logic, but it is
[2:13:52] interesting to like essentially we're
[2:13:54] dramatically increasing our our gross
[2:13:56] margins on our water to cover a bunch of
[2:13:59] fixed asset costs. That's essentially
[2:14:01] the strategy we're doing, right?
[2:14:02] Yep.
[2:14:03] Okay. And a lot of cities have gone to
[2:14:05] bonding instead. Yeah, and then and then
[2:14:08] I'm just wondering like have we done
[2:14:09] exper- Like cuz I think again, uh this
[2:14:11] is the economist in me, but like
[2:14:13] there's a profit maximizing rate of of
[2:14:16] water that sort of And again, I know
[2:14:17] there's conservation, but if you're just
[2:14:18] So, there's different lenses you can
[2:14:20] look at this with, but if you're just
[2:14:21] thinking about it, there's some price
[2:14:23] elasticity associated with water. As
[2:14:25] rates go up, I conserve, I use less. And
[2:14:27] so, like how confident are we we're not
[2:14:29] going beyond the profit maximizing rate?
[2:14:31] Like I've done a ton of these studies,
[2:14:32] but you can you've you know, you fidget
[2:14:34] with pricing and then you see you can
[2:14:36] you see
[2:14:37] volume of consumption change, and
[2:14:38] sometimes you think more price equals
[2:14:40] more profit, but actually often times
[2:14:42] you go past that point at which the
[2:14:43] marginal cost is high where you actually
[2:14:45] bring down your profit because people
[2:14:47] are just like, "This is too expensive.
[2:14:48] I'm not going to pay it."
[2:14:49] So, I'm just wondering now like how
[2:14:51] confident we are in some of these
[2:14:52] things.
[2:14:53] Yeah, so we we do have multiple
[2:14:54] components of the rate. There's the base
[2:14:55] rate that was done regardless of the
[2:14:57] usage. And then when our our And that's
[2:14:59] just like a flat service rate being
[2:15:01] connected to the water, correct? Yeah.
[2:15:04] And then and so, our consultant that
[2:15:06] provided the rate proposal
[2:15:09] uh factored in the I can't remember the
[2:15:11] percentage of the elasticity of demand
[2:15:14] for
[2:15:15] water with the price as the price went
[2:15:17] up and and calculated that into the
[2:15:19] forecast so that as the price as the
[2:15:22] consumption went down that we would
[2:15:24] still reach the certain revenue
[2:15:25] thresholds we're seeking. And that was
[2:15:27] just based on assumptions from other
[2:15:28] cities or something like It's industry standard for
[2:15:31] >> an industry standard assumption and we
[2:15:33] didn't run any experiments to see how
[2:15:34] Provo reacts to it. No, and it's it's
[2:15:38] really hard to to to pinpoint because
[2:15:41] the consumption changes because of so
[2:15:42] many reasons other than because of the
[2:15:44] price.
[2:15:45] But then we'll get but we will start to
[2:15:46] get some year-over-year data of the two
[2:15:50] like of the two cohorts before and after
[2:15:52] where we can start to see if that
[2:15:53] assumption was true or not in the
[2:15:54] modeling. Yes. Okay.
[2:15:57] Now, prior to this increase
[2:16:00] we were you people were using what was
[2:16:02] it like a million less in water?
[2:16:06] And our revenue had gone down
[2:16:08] because of
[2:16:10] Yes, but again, we've had
[2:16:13] you know, some years where it's really
[2:16:14] dry, some years when it's really wet.
[2:16:15] It's it's really hard to pinpoint if
[2:16:17] it's the price that's changing, the
[2:16:18] usage, you know, just the overall
[2:16:20] sentiment about
[2:16:22] conservation. I'm sorry, we're getting
[2:16:24] so in the weeds here, but do we do we
[2:16:25] have like a any regression modeling that
[2:16:27] tries to like
[2:16:29] account for these various factors year
[2:16:30] over year? Because we could we could we
[2:16:32] could like essentially tag every single
[2:16:34] variable you just said it cost the last
[2:16:35] 30 years and try to come up with Have we
[2:16:37] ever done any work like that?
[2:16:38] >> Yeah.
[2:16:40] I don't think so. Okay, anyway. The
[2:16:41] reason why I ask it's funny you said
[2:16:43] that cuz I was talking to one of my
[2:16:44] professors from BYU at Econ. He's like,
[2:16:46] "We'd love to do some regression, you
[2:16:48] know, work for the city and I would if
[2:16:49] you have any project ideas." So maybe
[2:16:50] this is a good one.
[2:16:54] Good citizens have been conserving
[2:16:55] really well year after year. Just keeps
[2:16:57] going down.
[2:16:59] Yeah, and I expect it this year with our water year, people will probably be
[2:17:03] inclined to conserve on their own even
[2:17:05] without us asking them to just because
[2:17:08] we didn't have a winter.
[2:17:10] On a slightly different topic, I have a
[2:17:12] question about
[2:17:15] the water resources and our staffing
[2:17:18] levels on that. So that was a really
[2:17:20] interesting thing to read that EPA
[2:17:23] recommended that we should have 14
[2:17:25] people and we have seven full-time and
[2:17:27] two part-time. Um you know, so we're pretty close more or less to what
[2:17:33] Orem's doing, but we're far below those
[2:17:35] three cities that are the comparables
[2:17:37] that were listed. So how is it that we
[2:17:40] are able to get away with fewer
[2:17:43] employees right now? Like
[2:17:46] and
[2:17:47] can we sustainably keep doing that or is
[2:17:50] this something where we're borrowing
[2:17:51] time?
[2:17:52] I think we're borrowing time. We we do
[2:17:54] have the best employees out there.
[2:17:56] They're working hard, but but yeah,
[2:17:59] this this the system, the wastewater
[2:18:02] system continues to grow and
[2:18:05] we add more miles of and we have the
[2:18:07] same staffing levels or maybe even under
[2:18:10] what we've had in the past trying to
[2:18:12] maintain that increasing pipeline.
[2:18:16] Um we've also got new technologies where
[2:18:19] we can do a lot of the services that we
[2:18:21] have hired out in the past. Uh and by
[2:18:24] doing those in-house we're saving money.
[2:18:27] But using more of our employees' time.
[2:18:29] >> Yes. Yeah. Uh it was just cuz we've often gotten reports from police
[2:18:35] that we are not meeting, you know, some
[2:18:37] sort of industry standard for the number
[2:18:39] of officers for our population size. So
[2:18:41] it was really surprising to me to see
[2:18:42] that we're in a similar situation with
[2:18:46] water.
[2:18:47] So And specifically on wastewater
[2:18:50] collection?
[2:18:50] >> On wastewater, yeah.
[2:18:53] Oh, for fun.
[2:18:58] Okay, any other questions?
[2:19:01] I know I would love to see more charts
[2:19:04] for the water, which I know does not
[2:19:06] excite anybody. Maybe Jeff. Is that
[2:19:08] water? But
[2:19:10] I would love to see our conservation,
[2:19:13] the different differences.
[2:19:17] I want to somehow get it. I want to
[2:19:19] understand better our use per acre.
[2:19:22] That's something that's still my my
[2:19:24] issue with this whole thing.
[2:19:26] I think we're so disproportionately
[2:19:27] We're not being fair
[2:19:29] per size of people's
[2:19:33] land or whatever.
[2:19:35] But um yeah, so I don't know what
[2:19:39] I don't even know what to ask for.
[2:19:41] But I want to understand exactly how
[2:19:44] it's going up, the pricing,
[2:19:47] our conservation, how that's been going
[2:19:48] and how our conservation's been
[2:19:49] affecting our revenue.
[2:19:52] Um
[2:19:54] yeah.
[2:19:56] Well, if unfortunately
[2:19:58] you can't really look at
[2:20:00] Well, we still have it in the last 10
[2:20:02] years.
[2:20:02] >> Yes, the jump. Yeah, but we but we
[2:20:04] there's years where we increased every
[2:20:06] year 4%, right?
[2:20:07] >> Right.
[2:20:08] I want to compare those years to
[2:20:10] what we're
[2:20:11] assuming you were six and eight.
[2:20:13] And and the hard part like Jimmy was
[2:20:15] mentioning, those years where we were
[2:20:17] increasing 4 or 5% every year,
[2:20:19] it was also at the tail end of
[2:20:21] a long-term drought and there was
[2:20:23] constant messaging
[2:20:25] everywhere you looked, TV, radio,
[2:20:28] newspaper of conserve, conserve, we have
[2:20:30] no water. And so it it
[2:20:32] you know, maybe with the help of of
[2:20:35] BYU or some other
[2:20:37] some of our consultants, we can look at
[2:20:39] that and how that plays into
[2:20:42] what's what's been happening, but we
[2:20:44] have we have seen a decrease in overall
[2:20:46] water use,
[2:20:48] whether that's our rates going up or the
[2:20:51] messaging for conservation.
[2:20:53] >> there's absolutely a mindset of
[2:20:55] conservation in Provo, without a doubt.
[2:20:57] Yeah, there's no need to change that.
[2:20:58] >> Like you knock doors and it's
[2:20:59] undeniable. Yeah. And it's in every
[2:21:01] neighborhood.
[2:21:03] So.
[2:21:05] Okay.
[2:21:07] Thanks, Jimmy. Nothing else? Jimmy? Do
[2:21:09] you want to bring something back to this
[2:21:11] presentation or did you Are we We can
[2:21:14] just get it in Then we can do it memos
[2:21:15] and emails.
[2:21:16] >> We want it in memo.
[2:21:18] Thanks, Gordon.
[2:21:20] All right. Can I I should just like one
[2:21:21] more thing as we're like
[2:21:22] >> Yeah, specify I I can I can write an email, but the
[2:21:26] other thing that
[2:21:27] again, I I apologize. I think I was in
[2:21:29] the heat of the campaign and wasn't
[2:21:30] following this super closely, but like
[2:21:31] the other thing that I'm just curious
[2:21:33] about, I think I understand the logic of
[2:21:35] the tiers, but I'm going to I'm just
[2:21:37] curious why we decided to go and tier
[2:21:39] based on lot size as opposed to just a
[2:21:41] consumption-based tier.
[2:21:44] That I just love to hear like the
[2:21:46] rationale behind that in more detail and
[2:21:48] like your all's thoughts would be really
[2:21:49] helpful.
[2:21:50] >> We didn't do it based on lot sizes.
[2:21:52] >> We did We did by meter size.
[2:21:54] meter size instead of just
[2:21:55] pure consumption.
[2:21:57] Yes, they they
[2:21:59] yes, we can provide you understand what
[2:22:01] I'm saying is like yes yes it is also
[2:22:03] meter size.
[2:22:06] Uh
[2:22:08] Yeah, explain just my understanding is
[2:22:10] based on the the size of the pipe
[2:22:12] effectively property based on
[2:22:14] consumption based on the
[2:22:16] just like the total amount of water you
[2:22:17] use. It is based on the total amount of
[2:22:19] water you use. But it's a it's a hybrid
[2:22:22] model.
[2:22:23] For the different Can you help me out
[2:22:24] here? We can explain it. Okay, I'll just
[2:22:26] yeah, just explain to me. Get me caught
[2:22:27] up. Thank you.
[2:22:29] All right, we're going to take a
[2:22:30] 5-minute break. We're still totally
[2:22:32] running way behind.
[2:22:33] But
[2:22:38] No, we are not caught up.
[2:22:41] We're half an hour behind. I'm sorry.
[2:22:43] So, you have 5 minutes.
[2:22:47] Pardon?
[2:22:51] Our next presentation is at 3:00. 2:53
[2:22:53] 2:55
[2:22:56] How tall is it worth?
[2:23:02] It
[2:23:03] has to do with how big your property
[2:23:05] Yeah. Yeah.
[2:23:06] So, it gives somewhat of a break because
[2:23:09] someone can be conserving awesomely, but
[2:23:12] they have bigger and bigger property
[2:23:15] orchard. If you've got a bigger pipe
[2:23:17] Now, presentation regarding the 2027
[2:23:19] budget of development services.
[2:23:22] Thank you.
[2:23:24] I really like really like working with
[2:23:26] Gordon Hayden public works cuz they
[2:23:27] always make me look good compared to
[2:23:29] their budget and my budget is small and
[2:23:31] simple.
[2:23:33] Hopefully we'll help get help get you
[2:23:34] back on track as far as your time.
[2:23:37] So, over the past 5 years development
[2:23:39] services has eliminated three positions
[2:23:41] to help balance the city's budget. Two
[2:23:43] of those positions were at the
[2:23:44] management level.
[2:23:46] You'll see in this presentation that
[2:23:47] we're proposing eliminating another
[2:23:49] position in order to fund creating a
[2:23:52] more needed position.
[2:23:56] There are There was no mid-year budget
[2:23:58] adjustment.
[2:24:00] I came to you the budget adjustments
[2:24:02] were going to ask for for the coming
[2:24:04] year.
[2:24:05] Are these things here?
[2:24:07] Parking enforcement needs two license
[2:24:10] plate readers. One is to update an
[2:24:12] existing one and one is a new one.
[2:24:15] Sandy can talk to you in more detail if
[2:24:16] you'd like, but these LPRs are not what
[2:24:19] the police talked to you about a couple
[2:24:20] weeks ago. They do not access the all
[2:24:22] the private information, personal
[2:24:23] information that the police department
[2:24:25] has access to. So, that's not really an
[2:24:28] issue with these LPRs.
[2:24:31] This uh 600,000 from development
[2:24:33] services uh from uh RDA is going to repay public works
[2:24:39] for the fill that's been put at the site
[2:24:42] down on Lake View Parkway and the I-15.
[2:24:45] There's been a lien put on that property
[2:24:46] that would repay
[2:24:47] this money
[2:24:49] um when the property sells.
[2:24:51] Wait, I'm I'm sorry. Can you explain
[2:24:52] that again?
[2:24:54] This is a $600,000 transfer from RDA
[2:24:58] funds to public works to reimburse
[2:25:00] public works for the trucking costs of
[2:25:03] moving fill onto the site at Lake View
[2:25:05] Parkway and the I-15.
[2:25:08] Like the Walmart land? Yes.
[2:25:11] Oh, is this part Okay, is this part of
[2:25:13] the 1 million that we put towards the
[2:25:14] grocery store?
[2:25:16] Um this is part of the entire package.
[2:25:18] This
[2:25:19] There's 1 million of COVID money, that's
[2:25:21] separate from this. This is in addition
[2:25:23] to that. It helps buy down the ask from
[2:25:27] the city on the property.
[2:25:29] Whoever develops that property in the
[2:25:30] future, whether it's Walmart or somebody
[2:25:32] else, they have to lift the property.
[2:25:34] It's a value to them. So, they've signed
[2:25:37] a lien to guarantee the city's
[2:25:39] repayment.
[2:25:39] >> are getting that money back. We're
[2:25:40] actually getting the value of fill,
[2:25:42] which is more like 900,000.
[2:25:44] >> Okay.
[2:25:44] >> And the 900 will go back into the RDA.
[2:25:47] Okay, for some reason I understood that
[2:25:49] um
[2:25:50] we were doing the million for a grocery
[2:25:52] store towards that and they didn't have
[2:25:54] to pay it back. So
[2:25:55] >> That's the That's the COVID money.
[2:25:57] That's the
[2:25:59] But it's not going towards the fill
[2:26:00] dirt. No. So what's what's the COVID
[2:26:03] money doing right now?
[2:26:05] Is it just sitting there? Yes, that's
[2:26:07] right. It hasn't been spent.
[2:26:12] Uh the last one is for the building
[2:26:14] division.
[2:26:15] Um
[2:26:17] a bottleneck we have in our department
[2:26:20] in the building division is that plan
[2:26:21] review.
[2:26:22] We have one plan one person does plan
[2:26:24] reviews plan checks.
[2:26:26] Um the $17,000 is for an AI um program
[2:26:30] to help us with plan review.
[2:26:33] Okay, I would like to eventually hire a
[2:26:36] full-time another full-time plan
[2:26:38] reviewer, but this is the first step
[2:26:41] towards solving that problem in a much
[2:26:43] more economical way than paying for
[2:26:45] another employee. Okay.
[2:26:47] And this may end up solving our problem
[2:26:49] completely. Well, we'll have to see.
[2:26:51] This is for one-year contract to test
[2:26:53] this out and see how it
[2:26:54] works. Honda has already done quite a
[2:26:56] bit of testing with this, so we have a
[2:26:57] high level of confidence with it.
[2:27:00] Also, we feel like we need a new field
[2:27:02] inspector.
[2:27:03] The field inspectors have been spread
[2:27:05] pretty thin and it's not really
[2:27:06] sustainable. We're kind of sticking our
[2:27:08] necks out as far as that goes.
[2:27:10] So, I'm going to propose shifting some
[2:27:12] things around to be able to fund that.
[2:27:15] Well, but you're paying for it with an
[2:27:17] open planner position.
[2:27:18] >> Right. And you think you're not going to
[2:27:19] miss that?
[2:27:21] open planner position has been open
[2:27:23] for quite some time. We haven't filled
[2:27:24] it. I mean, I've got two planner
[2:27:26] positions. One I just filled. New plan
[2:27:29] new planner just started yesterday. And
[2:27:31] planner Natasha Robinson just resigned a
[2:27:33] week ago.
[2:27:34] So, I'll be filling her spot, but this
[2:27:36] is the third position that we have had
[2:27:38] unfilled in the department for
[2:27:40] a couple years.
[2:27:41] Okay. Councilwoman Ogden.
[2:27:44] Okay.
[2:27:45] So, we keep on rotating through
[2:27:47] planners.
[2:27:48] Why? Cuz Aaron is so hard to work for.
[2:27:52] So, if we replace Aaron, then
[2:27:54] everything's going to be great?
[2:27:56] Um
[2:27:58] Yeah, I was actually uh surprised that
[2:28:00] we lost Nancy. She got offered a got a
[2:28:02] job at BYU where she was before she came
[2:28:04] here. Um
[2:28:06] so, that was a surprise to us. Um but I
[2:28:09] think
[2:28:10] uh and the planner before that we lost
[2:28:12] simply because her husband graduated and
[2:28:14] took a job in Montana.
[2:28:15] So, I don't think it's really a
[2:28:17] management issue. I think it's just Or a
[2:28:19] pay issue or No, we've worked hard to
[2:28:22] make our pay compatible and competitive
[2:28:25] and
[2:28:26] HR's been very good at working with us
[2:28:27] on that.
[2:28:30] You just think it's just uh
[2:28:32] Poor timing, yeah. Fluke, yeah. I don't
[2:28:35] expect it to continue.
[2:28:38] Aaron, lighten up.
[2:28:40] Now, the state has
[2:28:43] things in place where we have to do
[2:28:44] inspections so many days and that,
[2:28:46] right?
[2:28:47] Yes, um Are we we're still meeting those
[2:28:50] goals and that?
[2:28:50] >> Yes, still meeting those goals now, but
[2:28:53] still plan review is a backlog and so,
[2:28:55] if we can get
[2:28:58] rather than taking 21 days to get an
[2:28:59] industrial plan approved, it would be
[2:29:02] nice to be able to do that in 14 or 7.
[2:29:04] Oh, for sure. That's what we're talking
[2:29:05] about. Like seven. Yeah.
[2:29:13] The areas that we're not quite covering
[2:29:15] costs are the parking permit
[2:29:18] areas. We're getting better, but we're
[2:29:20] still not full recovery. Then RDLs are
[2:29:23] still short because we're not allowed to
[2:29:24] raise this fee enough to cover
[2:29:27] inspections. The state law won't allow
[2:29:28] us
[2:29:29] to cover inspections in an RDL. But,
[2:29:31] we're
[2:29:32] >> working on getting that redone, staff.
[2:29:33] Yes, that's still coming to you.
[2:29:35] Yeah. Just quickly, how much would we
[2:29:38] need to charge on the parking permit
[2:29:41] fees in order to get full cost recovery?
[2:29:44] Cuz we do have a lot of people reaching
[2:29:46] out that are just appalled that we've
[2:29:48] gone from $15 to 100 per year. And so,
[2:29:52] if if we could reiterate how much the
[2:29:55] city is still subsidizing it, that might
[2:29:57] be helpful. You're talking about the
[2:29:58] front.
[2:30:02] Flip it up. Turn his volume up. All
[2:30:03] right, thanks.
[2:30:07] When I calculated University Garden,
[2:30:11] and if we ever decided to do something
[2:30:14] on Slate Canyon, it came to about
[2:30:16] approximately $297
[2:30:19] a year per resident
[2:30:21] per permit.
[2:30:23] Wow.
[2:30:25] That's up 15, right?
[2:30:27] That's up from 15. That's up from 15.
[2:30:30] And so, the 100,
[2:30:32] we started, like you guys know, with
[2:30:34] Carter about half of that.
[2:30:35] And then, it just seemed to be more cost
[2:30:38] absorbing. Um, Council Woodcock. What is
[2:30:41] the, um, like the patrol or level of
[2:30:45] service assumption baked into that?
[2:30:47] Um,
[2:30:49] depending on the size. University Garden
[2:30:51] is so much bigger. Um,
[2:30:53] I figure we figure about
[2:30:57] 20 to 25%
[2:30:59] Um, for University Garden, we have
[2:31:02] difficulty
[2:31:03] uh difficulty hitting the entire area in
[2:31:07] one night. So, we kind of
[2:31:09] uh
[2:31:10] alter that a little bit. Slate Canyon, I
[2:31:13] figured about 2 or 3%. But again, it's
[2:31:17] still all of that those costs that we
[2:31:20] gave,
[2:31:21] it's it's very
[2:31:23] What what I'm more asking is how often
[2:31:25] are we
[2:31:27] patrol or like uh patrolling or checking
[2:31:29] as a given
[2:31:31] house or given place? Like I said, um
[2:31:34] University Garden, we cannot get through
[2:31:36] the entire permit area in one single
[2:31:39] night. So, hopefully we're checking a residence once every
[2:31:46] three or four times a week, but we're
[2:31:49] trying to alter it. Um because of with
[2:31:53] the Carter bill, University Garden, uh
[2:31:56] we have the parking management on
[2:31:58] Sepulveda Canyon. And I'm not trying to
[2:31:59] be vague, I'm just trying to kind of do
[2:32:01] the same thing. Plus all of the other
[2:32:03] parking management that we do,
[2:32:05] um and the calls that we're taking from
[2:32:07] that for dispatch. So, on average it's
[2:32:08] like once every couple days?
[2:32:11] It depends on the area. Like I said,
[2:32:12] 25%. So, during the week it's getting
[2:32:14] hit about 25% of the time. Yeah. But
[2:32:15] other areas like Saticoy are 2%. Yeah.
[2:32:18] Or 2% so Saticoy is 2%
[2:32:21] And so, we will actually go down the
[2:32:24] road, you know, Sepulveda Canyon
[2:32:26] multiple times on different calls. Okay.
[2:32:28] But Does that answer your question? Or
[2:32:31] did that give it a little bit of a
[2:32:32] better answer? I'm sorry. Yeah, I think
[2:32:35] part of the question is is it necessary
[2:32:38] really to patrol those every single
[2:32:40] night in order to get compliance? Like
[2:32:43] do we need to spend that much employee
[2:32:46] time in order to fulfill the
[2:32:48] requirements of the program? Yes. Yes.
[2:32:50] Okay. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And it also
[2:32:53] right now we're Um so, any of your old
[2:32:56] license plate readers, they all factor
[2:32:57] into that or down to us.
[2:33:00] But
[2:33:01] yes, especially in the University Garden
[2:33:04] area and Carter bill, absolutely. Good.
[2:33:07] Thank you.
[2:33:13] So, this is my proposal to pay for the
[2:33:15] things that we've asked for.
[2:33:17] Um
[2:33:23] All right, these would be reoccurring costs, rather.
[2:33:27] Um
[2:33:28] we believe we can pay this out of the
[2:33:29] increased plan check fee, and we can pay
[2:33:32] for this out of the
[2:33:34] uh
[2:33:35] trading the planner position.
[2:33:43] Um as uh we understand very well, the
[2:33:45] zoning enforcement has been a top
[2:33:46] priority for the council, and um the
[2:33:49] blitzes have been very successful. Uh
[2:33:51] but there's certainly increasing
[2:33:52] caseload. So, if we continue with those
[2:33:55] blitzes on a regular basis, we may be
[2:33:57] back in another year or so asking for a
[2:34:00] another zoning enforcement person to
[2:34:01] keep up with the increased caseload that
[2:34:04] this could cause.
[2:34:09] Uh performance measures, um
[2:34:12] the disparity in these numbers are that
[2:34:16] at this point we were counting zoning
[2:34:18] verification applications as planning
[2:34:20] applications, and they probably
[2:34:21] shouldn't have. So, we stopped counting
[2:34:24] them here.
[2:34:26] Um
[2:34:27] if you were to throw this back in, you'd
[2:34:28] probably be looking at another 50 or 75
[2:34:31] added to that number.
[2:34:33] Um
[2:34:34] but that's a big reason for the
[2:34:35] disparity there.
[2:34:40] Just some of the accomplishments of the
[2:34:42] department. So, one thing I would like
[2:34:43] to point out in particular are the
[2:34:46] written warnings that parking gets. I
[2:34:48] know there's a lot of discussion about
[2:34:50] parking and the job they do. I feel like
[2:34:52] Sandy has does a really good job
[2:34:55] balancing giving warnings and educating
[2:34:58] people on what they can and cannot do
[2:35:00] with the writing citations.
[2:35:02] And with the potential revenue, do we
[2:35:04] take those things to collections, or how
[2:35:07] come Yes. Yep. And we have seen an
[2:35:10] increase in what we've been able to
[2:35:11] collect, and so that's helping to fund
[2:35:14] some of the things we've talked about.
[2:35:18] Other key accomplishments in planning
[2:35:20] and in CBG and home.
[2:35:27] The the increase in the down payment
[2:35:29] assistance has been huge.
[2:35:31] That's a big jump in that number.
[2:35:37] Yeah, down payment assistance has gone
[2:35:38] to 60,000. So, yeah.
[2:35:42] And then, um
[2:35:44] Melissa, get ready cuz you're up.
[2:35:55] Bill, so you're sure in that you don't
[2:35:58] need any more employees?
[2:36:01] Um
[2:36:03] I feel like it's a miracle you've asked
[2:36:05] for anything.
[2:36:06] Yeah, so
[2:36:09] um I try to be very careful I know you
[2:36:11] >> sure that everybody's busy 40 hours a
[2:36:13] week, but not strained.
[2:36:16] I'm want to make sure that our resources
[2:36:18] are all being used fully before I ask
[2:36:20] for more people because of what a large
[2:36:22] ongoing expense that is to the city.
[2:36:25] So, I feel like what we're doing now is
[2:36:26] manageable,
[2:36:28] but I need a field inspector
[2:36:30] and I need help with plan review. If the
[2:36:32] things I propose solve our problems,
[2:36:34] we'll be good. If not, then I'll be back
[2:36:36] and I'll probably have to ask for more
[2:36:38] help on the building side building
[2:36:39] division.
[2:36:40] If that's
[2:36:41] >> we're sacrificing in planning, just so
[2:36:43] you know,
[2:36:44] um the reduction in planning staff has
[2:36:47] affected long-range planning. We're not
[2:36:48] doing the neighborhood plans the way we
[2:36:50] used to and we have been sidetracked
[2:36:52] with station area plans and some other
[2:36:54] long-range projects like writing the new
[2:36:55] zoning ordinance, but we're not getting
[2:36:57] the neighborhood plans done the
[2:36:58] long-range projects. That's what's been
[2:37:00] sacrificed in losing positions.
[2:37:04] But, you'll come to us before the next
[2:37:06] budget season if something is a problem.
[2:37:08] Yes. Okay.
[2:37:09] Long as Scott lets me.
[2:37:14] Okay.
[2:37:15] Um my budget stuff's pretty simple.
[2:37:18] Um
[2:37:22] we have increased our
[2:37:24] um
[2:37:24] the amount of down payment assistance
[2:37:26] that we've given in the past year, which
[2:37:27] is really um it's really great. We did a
[2:37:30] few minor changes or to the programs
[2:37:33] that has been beneficial.
[2:37:35] Um and we're doing a really good job of
[2:37:38] marketing
[2:37:39] um the program.
[2:37:41] Um
[2:37:43] see.
[2:37:45] Um this is just what we've done so far
[2:37:47] in 2026. The bottom the bottom part um
[2:37:51] 10 down payment assistance loans just in
[2:37:53] the first quarter. Um we've
[2:37:57] um
[2:38:00] completed our the Well, I've completed
[2:38:02] my first project area plan. Yay. Um
[2:38:05] working on policies and procedures in a
[2:38:07] and the HTRC around the fire station.
[2:38:14] Is that it? That's it. That's it.
[2:38:18] And do you have any questions regarding
[2:38:20] RDA or our CDBG and home
[2:38:24] um items?
[2:38:26] Those are separate from the general
[2:38:27] fund. I I think that's why Bill makes me do it by myself because um
[2:38:34] Okay. Thank you. Any questions for
[2:38:36] Melissa?
[2:38:37] No, thanks Melissa. Thanks.
[2:38:42] All right. Is that it, Bill?
[2:38:44] Oh, you have helped us
[2:38:48] a lot. We're back on schedule. We're
[2:38:49] ahead of schedule. Wow, we're moving it
[2:38:52] up. All right.
[2:38:55] Yeah, three Oh, no, I did my math wrong.
[2:38:58] Thank you.
[2:38:59] We're we're 15 minutes in print. Yes.
[2:39:02] We got we got 50 minutes back. Okay,
[2:39:04] next is a resolution approving the
[2:39:06] appropriation of 96,547
[2:39:09] to pay for three new firefighters and
[2:39:11] their equipment between May and June for
[2:39:13] the fiscal year ending June 30th, 2026.
[2:39:16] And um Chief Headman,
[2:39:18] just make sure you explain why this is
[2:39:19] coming to us now before the budget.
[2:39:21] Okay.
[2:39:22] Thanks.
[2:39:27] Thank you. Uh appreciate you giving me a
[2:39:29] few minutes to talk about uh why we need
[2:39:31] to add three firefighters.
[2:39:34] I'll start off with why um why we're doing this now.
[2:39:39] Um there's
[2:39:42] the the plan ongoing starting in in
[2:39:44] fiscal year 27 is to fund them off of
[2:39:47] our
[2:39:48] um overtime account. So, we're going to
[2:39:50] reduce that in by a little over $300,000
[2:39:53] to pay for the full-time firefighters
[2:39:54] for the next year.
[2:39:56] The reason there's uh quite a few
[2:39:58] reasons we'd like to bring them in
[2:40:00] early.
[2:40:01] Um but a big one is that it's Well, let
[2:40:07] me just go through this. It'll kind of
[2:40:10] It's not going. I only have ordinances
[2:40:12] that we sent.
[2:40:13] Oh. All right. Well, then I'll do it
[2:40:15] without a presentation.
[2:40:17] Sorry about that. Um
[2:40:22] Hopefully that's the right one. It is.
[2:40:24] Okay. So, um
[2:40:27] it
[2:40:27] So, you didn't get one in your packet
[2:40:29] either a presentation. Did you get this?
[2:40:33] No. Okay.
[2:40:35] I'll be even more detailed cuz I thought
[2:40:38] I I thought there were three documents
[2:40:40] submitted. So, that's my mistake.
[2:40:43] Um so,
[2:40:45] the appropriation is for $60,000
[2:40:50] for the three salaries for two months
[2:40:53] and then a $39,000 for equipment which
[2:40:57] gets them personal protective equipment
[2:40:59] as well as radios and and some other
[2:41:02] um equipment, uniforms, and stuff they
[2:41:04] need to to perform.
[2:41:07] Um
[2:41:10] The fire department when we staff the fire department, every day we allow
[2:41:16] five people off.
[2:41:18] So that allows us to keep a minimum
[2:41:21] level of staffing at every fire station.
[2:41:23] And as soon as we have a sixth person
[2:41:25] off for any reason, that requires us to
[2:41:28] call back an overtime person.
[2:41:30] Which last year happened 330 out of 365
[2:41:34] days. So the the offset of the savings
[2:41:38] for overtime easily pays for the
[2:41:40] position. The reason it's not paying for
[2:41:42] it this current why we can't save it in
[2:41:45] this current budget year is that for the
[2:41:47] first two months of hiring in a new
[2:41:49] employee, they're not on shift. They're in training. So they're not
[2:41:55] helping us in the helping us reduce our
[2:41:58] overtime budget for that that two months
[2:42:00] of training.
[2:42:02] Um
[2:42:04] We we hire
[2:42:10] There's one of the reasons that we
[2:42:12] wanted to hire now is
[2:42:15] we're we're down two employees. We have
[2:42:17] a third one that's about to retire. So
[2:42:19] we need three.
[2:42:20] Um and then we we want to hire the
[2:42:22] additional three so we can run one camp
[2:42:25] in May,
[2:42:26] get them all trained up and then they're all on shift starting in July.
[2:42:30] Uh which
[2:42:32] helps for a number of reasons. It helps
[2:42:34] us provide a better training opportunity
[2:42:36] for the new employees
[2:42:38] by having um
[2:42:39] more people in training, we're able to
[2:42:42] function more like a real fire
[2:42:44] department in training. So when we when
[2:42:47] we go to a fire, we don't just go with
[2:42:48] one station, we go with multiple
[2:42:50] stations. So it allows us to have two
[2:42:51] companies to do training together and it
[2:42:55] makes it a whole lot more realistic.
[2:42:57] Um the one of the other big reasons we
[2:43:01] would like to hire earlier
[2:43:03] is we started interviewing for the three
[2:43:06] positions we know about uh
[2:43:09] after we did a test in February.
[2:43:11] And by the time we were making offers to
[2:43:14] them
[2:43:15] two weeks ago
[2:43:17] we'd already two of them had already
[2:43:19] taken jobs in other fire departments. So
[2:43:22] the the timing is important to get the
[2:43:24] best talent in in Provo. So we we we
[2:43:27] feel like it's
[2:43:29] to our benefit to hire we we have a
[2:43:31] great candidate pool that's at least
[2:43:33] five or six deep.
[2:43:36] We we haven't interviewed if we get
[2:43:38] approved an appropriation for the
[2:43:40] additional three we'll interview three
[2:43:42] more candidates.
[2:43:44] Uh which is a civil service requirement
[2:43:45] that we test we interview 10 for each
[2:43:48] position.
[2:43:49] So for the
[2:43:50] first three we we interviewed 12 if that
[2:43:53] makes sense. Um
[2:43:58] Let's see.
[2:44:00] This uh
[2:44:02] by doing this one camp also saves us a
[2:44:04] lot of overtime at cost because when we
[2:44:07] run a camp we have some people we have a
[2:44:09] training division that does a portion of
[2:44:10] the training but we have to bring in
[2:44:13] experts in their field to train them in
[2:44:16] EMS or
[2:44:18] whether it's some kind of technical
[2:44:19] rescue or different disciplines in the
[2:44:22] departments we bring in the right people
[2:44:24] to teach them
[2:44:25] through the through the training program
[2:44:27] in addition to the people that are there
[2:44:29] every day.
[2:44:30] Um
[2:44:35] Sorry, I was counting on a slide.
[2:44:39] Well, I think that's what we want to get
[2:44:40] across cuz we talked about this in
[2:44:41] leadership but that
[2:44:42] it is going to save money in the long
[2:44:44] run and the department needs it ASAP and
[2:44:47] my training save money save overtime. So
[2:44:50] covering this for two months before the
[2:44:52] year budget picks it up. Yeah, it will
[2:44:54] help us
[2:44:55] a lot to to get the people in the the
[2:44:59] pipeline so they're actually benefiting
[2:45:01] us starting right in July which is our
[2:45:03] busiest time of year.
[2:45:04] Um we already have firefighters
[2:45:07] in Nebraska fighting wildland fires.
[2:45:10] They're going to be out all season long
[2:45:12] I I expect as dry as everything is. So
[2:45:15] >> Well, are there any other questions for
[2:45:16] Chief Hedman about this?
[2:45:18] Okay, I think we're great. Thank you
[2:45:20] Chief. Thank you Chief. Thank you.
[2:45:22] All right, next a resolution to place
[2:45:27] 1.92 acre parcel of ground located
[2:45:29] approximately 1051 East Birch Lane on
[2:45:32] the surplus property list. This will be
[2:45:34] presented by Tara Riddle.
[2:45:46] Good afternoon.
[2:45:48] I have a little disclaimer. I love
[2:45:51] spring in Utah but it does not love me.
[2:45:53] So I'm having
[2:45:55] a little asthma issue so if I'm a little
[2:45:57] breathy it's not cuz I'm super excited.
[2:46:02] Um
[2:46:03] I've received a couple of comments about
[2:46:05] this item. So
[2:46:07] please forgive me for
[2:46:09] going away from some of the information
[2:46:11] that I provided to you in your packet. I
[2:46:13] thought it might be helpful to give you
[2:46:15] some historical information that was not
[2:46:18] included cuz I didn't realize that it
[2:46:20] would be some of the questions that were
[2:46:21] coming up. So I think this may be
[2:46:23] beneficial as we go with the discussion.
[2:46:26] So I'm going to start way back when
[2:46:30] in 1941
[2:46:32] um BYU acquired some property that's
[2:46:35] adjacent to the now Kiwanis Park.
[2:46:38] This will be important as I describe
[2:46:41] kind of what's happened.
[2:46:42] So um this is the property here where
[2:46:45] this building is located. Um it's known
[2:46:48] as the Oakridge Elemen- Oakridge School.
[2:46:51] Um, it sits on BYU property.
[2:46:54] Um, in 1948
[2:46:57] is when Provo City acquired the property
[2:46:59] that is now known as Kiwanis Park.
[2:47:02] So, 30 years after we acquired the park
[2:47:05] property, we entered into an a lease
[2:47:07] agreement with the school district for
[2:47:10] the 2 acres that we're talking about
[2:47:12] today.
[2:47:14] Um, that lease agreement was
[2:47:16] basically a 50-year lease agreement.
[2:47:20] So, it won't be expiring for 2 more
[2:47:23] years.
[2:47:24] And the lease agreement was to be used
[2:47:26] for parking and a playground for the
[2:47:31] Oakridge School.
[2:47:32] was a school
[2:47:34] specific for children in the Provo
[2:47:36] School District and later the Nebo
[2:47:38] School District, children with
[2:47:40] disabilities, so special needs children.
[2:47:43] So,
[2:47:45] um, the contract that we had
[2:47:47] was they would pay a dollar a year,
[2:47:49] which they paid in advance. They paid
[2:47:51] the full $50 up front.
[2:47:53] Um,
[2:47:55] so it was supposed to be used for public
[2:47:56] purposes in connection with the school.
[2:47:59] Um, so that included both the playground
[2:48:02] and the parking.
[2:48:03] And that the school district would pay
[2:48:06] for all of that equipment and the
[2:48:08] improvements for the parking lot. So,
[2:48:11] they built everything, all everything
[2:48:13] that sits there now is what the school
[2:48:15] district constructed. The deal was once
[2:48:18] the the lease agreement was either
[2:48:20] broken or it expired,
[2:48:22] all of those improvements then became
[2:48:24] the ownership of Provo City.
[2:48:26] So,
[2:48:28] in 1979,
[2:48:30] BYU entered into an agreement with the
[2:48:32] school district for the construction of
[2:48:34] the school. So, the school
[2:48:38] is owned by the school district, but the
[2:48:40] property is owned by BYU.
[2:48:43] So, fast forward to 2004,
[2:48:46] there was an amendment to the agreement
[2:48:48] with BYU between BYU and the school
[2:48:50] district. There were some changes that
[2:48:53] took place in the state of Utah Utah
[2:48:56] regarding the education of children with
[2:48:59] special needs.
[2:49:00] So, it made the Oak Bridge school
[2:49:02] basically obsolete.
[2:49:04] And so, the school district stopped
[2:49:07] using the building for that purpose.
[2:49:10] Provo City was never notified of that
[2:49:13] change in use.
[2:49:14] So, Wasatch Elementary School and the
[2:49:18] school district, I don't know how many
[2:49:19] of the offices and things there in the
[2:49:21] building were used by each, but it was
[2:49:24] basically used by the school district
[2:49:27] for school district park purposes. And
[2:49:29] the playground continued to be used for
[2:49:32] Wasatch Elementary School.
[2:49:35] Um it's important to note that when
[2:49:38] the school district took over this
[2:49:40] property, they put up signage on the
[2:49:43] parking lot that it was for Wasatch um
[2:49:47] employees and also for student drop-off.
[2:49:50] This was also in contradiction to our
[2:49:53] agreement cuz the agreement was supposed
[2:49:55] to be that it should have been parking
[2:49:57] shared between the park and the school.
[2:50:02] So,
[2:50:04] um we fast forward now to 2025.
[2:50:09] We know that Wasatch Elementary School
[2:50:11] is purchased by BYU.
[2:50:12] This also included the building. So, the
[2:50:16] school district quitclaimed all of their
[2:50:19] ownership over to BYU. So, BYU now owns
[2:50:22] the land and the building.
[2:50:25] They assumed, excuse me, I got to take a
[2:50:27] drink.
[2:50:31] BYU assumed the lease agreement. They
[2:50:35] were not made aware of the terms of the
[2:50:37] agreement. So, they in good faith have
[2:50:39] been using the property as the school
[2:50:42] district was using it, assuming that
[2:50:44] they had the same rights, not
[2:50:46] understanding that if it was no longer
[2:50:49] being used for the school that it would
[2:50:51] revert back to the city.
[2:50:53] So, when they got ownership, that was
[2:50:55] about the time that they came to the
[2:50:57] city and said, "We are making some
[2:50:59] adjustments to other buildings on
[2:51:01] campus, specifically the administration
[2:51:04] building. We're going to need to move
[2:51:05] some of our employees down to some of
[2:51:07] these buildings at the Wasatch
[2:51:08] Elementary School, also an Oak Ridge
[2:51:10] School. So, that's going to need us to
[2:51:13] actually use some of the parking, and
[2:51:14] we'd like to incorporate that into our
[2:51:17] overall plan. So, we'd like to purchase
[2:51:19] the property."
[2:51:20] So, that's where we are today.
[2:51:23] So, inside of the packet we had
[2:51:25] information, like we typically do. We
[2:51:27] did a departmental review with all of
[2:51:30] the city departments, asking what impact
[2:51:33] would it have if we were to surplus
[2:51:35] these two acres. It's very important to
[2:51:38] note that if you stand up on this
[2:51:40] property, you would probably not realize
[2:51:42] that it's actually owned by the city.
[2:51:44] We have not had use of it for 50 years.
[2:51:47] There has not been citizens using the
[2:51:50] playgrounds cuz it's secured.
[2:51:52] Well, then they're going in It's fenced.
[2:51:55] It's gated. So, if they're going in, through fences that are
[2:51:58] closed. So, and and I'll be addressing
[2:52:01] kind of the playground issue here in a
[2:52:02] second. But, Yeah. the parking and
[2:52:05] things they haven't been using. I don't
[2:52:07] know if they They have been.
[2:52:09] I don't know if you've been getting
[2:52:10] ticketed or whatever. But,
[2:52:12] so, that it really would not have an
[2:52:14] impact impact as far as our planning, or
[2:52:17] the parks department have been planning
[2:52:18] on, you know, the Quanus Park's future
[2:52:20] or anything like that.
[2:52:22] So,
[2:52:23] with the purchase of the Wasatch
[2:52:26] Elementary School from BYU,
[2:52:29] some of the There's three playgrounds
[2:52:31] that partially sit well, the one
[2:52:33] playground sits entirely on the parcel
[2:52:36] that was leased by the school district.
[2:52:39] There's two other playgrounds.
[2:52:41] One right here and one right here.
[2:52:44] When you If you look at the property
[2:52:45] lines, they're built partially on school
[2:52:48] district now BYU property and partially
[2:52:51] on city property. None of us know
[2:52:53] exactly why that happened. But the
[2:52:56] playgrounds have been used by both
[2:52:57] parties.
[2:52:59] So, um
[2:53:01] about a year ago
[2:53:03] the parks department went in and did a
[2:53:07] They actually hired
[2:53:09] an inspection of all three playgrounds.
[2:53:11] And it was determined that all of the
[2:53:13] equipment in those three playgrounds
[2:53:16] were rated at poor to very poor.
[2:53:19] Meaning that they're not safe for us to
[2:53:21] be using.
[2:53:22] So,
[2:53:24] the proposal is that in 2028-2029
[2:53:28] the re-um placement of those playgrounds
[2:53:31] would be done as part of their CIP
[2:53:33] project. And they would be improved down
[2:53:36] in our current playground area.
[2:53:39] Here.
[2:53:40] It's
[2:53:41] I I apologize.
[2:53:45] CIP parks and rec CIP? Yes. And we're
[2:53:48] talking about even the fenced off one to
[2:53:50] the north.
[2:53:51] No. That was not considered Well,
[2:53:54] I'm assuming that that would eventually
[2:53:56] be going away if we sell the property to
[2:53:59] BYU.
[2:54:01] So,
[2:54:02] there are three separate
[2:54:03] play-playgrounds plus our new our newer
[2:54:06] playground. And the three separate
[2:54:08] playgrounds are the ones that are joint
[2:54:09] on our property and are in very poor condition that need
[2:54:13] They need to go away. Okay.
[2:54:15] Is that clear?
[2:54:16] Because the fact that they're there
[2:54:18] They are. So, I just wanted And our
[2:54:20] inspection
[2:54:22] verified that. And I guess if we have
[2:54:23] questions on that, we have
[2:54:25] representatives from the Parks
[2:54:26] Department here.
[2:54:27] So,
[2:54:29] um
[2:54:30] what's happened to this point is that
[2:54:32] BYU, as I've mentioned, has made an
[2:54:34] offer to purchase the property.
[2:54:36] So, in essence, we could surplus the
[2:54:39] property and receive about 1.37 million
[2:54:43] dollars, which could be put into the CIP
[2:54:46] fund for the Parks Department to go
[2:54:49] towards the replacement of these
[2:54:52] playgrounds.
[2:54:54] And they would be replaced down in the
[2:54:56] playground area, expanding that
[2:54:58] playground that we currently have on the
[2:55:00] park property.
[2:55:02] Um I know there was some questions about
[2:55:05] what BYU's proposed use was, so we have
[2:55:07] representatives from BYU here if you
[2:55:10] have questions specific to that. If
[2:55:12] there's questions specific to the impact
[2:55:15] this would have on the Parks Department
[2:55:16] or the playground areas, as I mentioned,
[2:55:18] we've got representatives here from the
[2:55:21] Parks Department.
[2:55:23] Yes.
[2:55:25] So, Tara, why would Parks automatically
[2:55:28] replace playground equipment that sits
[2:55:30] partially
[2:55:31] in Kiwanis Park on city property and
[2:55:33] partially on the on BYU property? Yes,
[2:55:36] residents are using these playgrounds.
[2:55:38] Part of it is the smaller um playground
[2:55:41] that we have now is rated for
[2:55:44] you'll have to help me on this, two two
[2:55:46] to five-year-olds. We don't really have
[2:55:48] equipment for the five-year-olds to
[2:55:50] 12-year-olds.
[2:55:52] So, the new equipment that would be
[2:55:53] coming in would be replacing the stuff
[2:55:55] that was used by the elementary school,
[2:55:57] which would be the five-year-olds to
[2:55:58] 12-year-olds.
[2:55:59] Okay. So, you said there's two years
[2:56:01] remaining on the lease. Well, so
[2:56:04] theoretically, the lease should be
[2:56:06] terminated. Yeah. Because it's not being
[2:56:08] used appropriately.
[2:56:11] So, the lease part of this
[2:56:14] is now out of the picture.
[2:56:16] And then going way back to 19
[2:56:20] Where Where did Provo City acquire this
[2:56:22] property? Would it have been National
[2:56:24] Parks property or those
[2:56:26] No, we acquired it from a gentleman
[2:56:29] by the name of Willie Rita.
[2:56:32] Yes, a single gentleman as it said on
[2:56:34] the deed.
[2:56:35] So
[2:56:36] a single gentleman.
[2:56:38] So
[2:56:39] You tell us what Yeah, I know.
[2:56:42] I don't know. I am assuming we purchased
[2:56:44] it. It may have been
[2:56:45] um donated. I'm really not sure. There
[2:56:47] wasn't a lot of information
[2:56:49] on the deed, but
[2:56:51] You got the deed. We got fee title from
[2:56:52] it uh a single person.
[2:56:55] Okay, Counselor Whitlock. Um so
[2:56:58] just clearing up maybe a couple things
[2:56:59] that I'd heard. Um
[2:57:01] so you're saying right now BYU is void.
[2:57:04] So currently BYU does not have like a
[2:57:06] right to use the land. Correct. Okay.
[2:57:10] And there I'd heard that there was like
[2:57:11] an option for them to extend the lease,
[2:57:14] but is that's not accurate? Right?
[2:57:16] >> No, there hasn't been any discussion
[2:57:17] about that.
[2:57:18] >> hasn't been Okay. The original lease as
[2:57:19] I say was written for 50 years
[2:57:21] >> And there's no with the option of it
[2:57:23] renewing for another 25
[2:57:26] um automatically unless the city gave
[2:57:28] notice that we did not want to renew.
[2:57:31] Got it. Got it. So there was the
[2:57:32] original lease, there was that extension
[2:57:34] of
[2:57:34] >> There was that extension.
[2:57:35] >> no longer in effect because the lease
[2:57:37] was void. Right. Is that correct? Yeah.
[2:57:39] Thank you.
[2:57:42] Anyone else?
[2:57:44] Counselor Bogden. Okay, it's just in my
[2:57:46] notes.
[2:57:48] Return over there. Do we have a need
[2:57:52] for
[2:57:53] multiple five plus playgrounds? I mean,
[2:57:55] how do we envision this?
[2:57:58] It would be a consolidated to one five
[2:58:01] to 12-year-old playground.
[2:58:04] So would it be large like a Lakeview
[2:58:06] North Park
[2:58:08] playground large?
[2:58:09] >> Yes.
[2:58:10] Because we would think that you have
[2:58:11] three different ones and they're it's
[2:58:12] all being utilized. We would have a need for a lot, but just
[2:58:19] not not like a liquid park
[2:58:23] one, right? It it'll be sized for the needs of the neighborhood. We
[2:58:28] understand that
[2:58:29] there was an elementary school at this
[2:58:31] location and there's not no longer an
[2:58:34] elementary school, so the demand during
[2:58:38] the daytime hours is probably
[2:58:39] considerably less than how these were
[2:58:41] sized.
[2:58:42] But, we'll make sure it's sized
[2:58:43] appropriately and it is and it would be
[2:58:45] a larger playground than a smaller
[2:58:47] playground with the restrooms. And will
[2:58:48] the residents be a part of that
[2:58:50] decision, like where it's located at and
[2:58:53] Yes. how much it is? We will hold public
[2:58:55] uh input on all of that. And with it
[2:58:58] being a million dollars, would they also
[2:58:59] get a replacement of the tennis courts?
[2:59:03] With the capital improvement plan, yes,
[2:59:05] the intent is to replace the three
[2:59:07] tennis courts. And again, with public
[2:59:09] input, decide if there's three remaining
[2:59:12] tennis courts or if there's some
[2:59:13] pickleball court integration in there or
[2:59:15] not. We'll we'll we'll continue that as
[2:59:17] we get closer to that. We probably need
[2:59:19] to get the tennis people's input on
[2:59:21] that, too, or that's going to be a
[2:59:22] really
[2:59:24] bad situation for a lot of us.
[2:59:28] Okay.
[2:59:29] Thank you.
[2:59:30] Councilmember Clark. Uh yeah, so just a
[2:59:32] couple more questions. I I would be
[2:59:33] curious to hear what uh BYU's planned
[2:59:36] use of the land would be.
[2:59:38] Good question.
[2:59:41] Right now, we would just use it as as
[2:59:43] overflow parking for the Oak Ridge
[2:59:45] parking lot. Right now, we have no
[2:59:47] plans. We don't have
[2:59:48] any plans for Wasatch or Oak Ridge that
[2:59:51] we know of.
[2:59:52] That will come, you know.
[2:59:54] Yeah, but
[2:59:55] Uh even when the ASP is completed? Even
[2:59:57] ASP one is completed is we don't
[3:00:01] envision keeping the school.
[3:00:03] Okay. And what was the what was the um
[3:00:06] methodology to sort of reach the 1.37
[3:00:09] million uh
[3:00:11] between the two uh appraisal values. So,
[3:00:14] we typically split the difference, but
[3:00:16] BYU was actually generous in coming
[3:00:18] a little bit above what the splitting of
[3:00:20] the difference would be.
[3:00:22] Okay. That's normally what we do if we
[3:00:24] get two appraisals. And have we talked
[3:00:26] at all about options of maybe extending
[3:00:28] the lease under
[3:00:31] more than a dollar a year or like the needs the immediate needs during the
[3:00:34] ASB ASB construction?
[3:00:36] So, we have not discussed a lease option
[3:00:39] and it wouldn't be
[3:00:41] we would we we would create a new lease
[3:00:44] entirely. So,
[3:00:45] that is something I don't know if BYU would be open to
[3:00:48] a lease agreement. That's just not
[3:00:50] something we had talked about. Yeah, we
[3:00:51] haven't haven't talked about that. What
[3:00:54] why is it BYU's preference to purchase
[3:00:56] the land as opposed to something like a
[3:00:58] lease?
[3:00:59] Um,
[3:01:01] it it came up as a purchase. We we just
[3:01:04] talked about it. Okay.
[3:01:07] And I will go back Wasatch I don't know
[3:01:10] what happened with Oak Ridge. Oak Ridge
[3:01:11] is in the nicer condition so that may
[3:01:13] stay. But,
[3:01:14] Wasatch is in poor condition.
[3:01:18] Councilor Ivie, so when you say Wasatch
[3:01:20] will go away, do you envision
[3:01:23] another do you envision just selling the
[3:01:25] property to some
[3:01:28] At some point the building will either
[3:01:31] have to be
[3:01:33] I I just can't see us remodeling it cuz
[3:01:35] it's in such poor condition.
[3:01:38] So, we really don't know what we're
[3:01:39] going to do with it. So, you don't know
[3:01:41] if you're going to put a parking lot on
[3:01:42] it or if you're going to put a parking
[3:01:43] garage on it. Yeah. What is
[3:01:47] what's stopping you guys from putting
[3:01:48] parking garages up on campus? Um,
[3:01:51] parking garages are about in the
[3:01:52] underground and then going up they're
[3:01:55] about $46,000 per stall and then you're
[3:01:57] about $30,000 per stall for an above
[3:02:00] ground.
[3:02:01] And so, that's what's stopping us.
[3:02:04] 30 how many times? It's not um anything
[3:02:06] below ground about 45, 46,000 and above
[3:02:09] ground you're about 30,000 per stall.
[3:02:13] And so, um and you throw a parking then
[3:02:17] it just creates more of a traffic in
[3:02:19] that one area. Well, this is a lot of
[3:02:22] the feedback that we're getting Yeah. is
[3:02:25] that BYU needs to start staying within
[3:02:27] their footprint and start building up,
[3:02:29] building parking garages, and and
[3:02:31] building there instead of expanding out.
[3:02:33] Um and we've gotten Let me tell you I
[3:02:36] went to go exercise
[3:02:39] at the Rec this morning and by the time
[3:02:41] I got out I had 15 emails.
[3:02:44] And my email I would traveled home
[3:02:46] yesterday cuz we went to St. George for
[3:02:48] a conference last week and I got home
[3:02:50] yesterday I was traveling yesterday. My
[3:02:52] phone was just
[3:02:53] stinking going off all the time. This
[3:02:56] isn't just
[3:02:57] one person's opinion. This is a lot of
[3:03:00] Provo that is feeling that BYU needs to
[3:03:04] start staying within its footprint and
[3:03:06] start building up.
[3:03:07] Getting some parking garages. I'm I'm
[3:03:09] not doing this to be mean I'm just doing
[3:03:10] this to let you know that that its taste
[3:03:13] for us to sell this is pretty high.
[3:03:17] Um they want you guys to stay within
[3:03:19] your footprint. Well, that's fine. We we don't we want to be neighbors with Provo City. We've worked together
[3:03:25] for years.
[3:03:27] And so, if if you guys decide not to
[3:03:29] sell this, we're we're not here trying
[3:03:33] to tell you that we want it.
[3:03:36] Thank you.
[3:03:39] Any other questions for BYU or we got
[3:03:41] them? Gary, go ahead.
[3:03:43] Some of the images that we received show
[3:03:47] that
[3:03:47] BYU signage on Birch Avenue
[3:03:51] uh at parking lot entrances.
[3:03:52] >> Yes. Um
[3:03:54] if if in fact they were where
[3:03:57] they looked like they were and if those
[3:03:59] have been removed I want to commend BYU
[3:04:01] We pulled ours on it. for removing those
[3:04:03] in advance. Thank you.
[3:04:05] >> Until this issue is settled. I think
[3:04:07] that's that's up in the air.
[3:04:09] Good.
[3:04:10] Uh
[3:04:11] and then my other comment is
[3:04:13] I kind of feel like this issue is being
[3:04:16] um unfairly framed.
[3:04:18] And and even the slide itself that says
[3:04:21] Kiwanis Park surplus property
[3:04:24] m- maybe at one point this was part of
[3:04:26] Kiwanis Park when the lease agreement
[3:04:28] was entered into 50 years ago.
[3:04:30] But
[3:04:31] at best I would say the argument the
[3:04:34] citizens have is please return this
[3:04:36] property to park use.
[3:04:39] But everyone's saying don't sell off
[3:04:41] Kiwanis Park. This I don't view this as
[3:04:44] Kiwanis Park. I view it as parking and
[3:04:47] playgrounds that were used by the school
[3:04:49] district.
[3:04:50] So anyway, I I wanted to just clarify
[3:04:53] that as well. That's a good point. I
[3:04:55] think the reason we call it Kiwanis Park
[3:04:57] is cuz you will look at a parcel map.
[3:05:00] It's on the parcel for Kiwanis Park, but
[3:05:02] clarifying information probably would
[3:05:04] have been helpful.
[3:05:06] That's it's surplussing Provo City
[3:05:08] Council. Yeah.
[3:05:10] Well, I think so I used to live there
[3:05:12] and I've used that park for 10 years
[3:05:14] with my children. It was very much
[3:05:16] accessible. I played with my kids there
[3:05:18] and I parked there and sometimes when I
[3:05:19] had to work I'd watch them while I
[3:05:21] worked in my car.
[3:05:22] Like
[3:05:24] it's accessible and I used it a lot.
[3:05:27] It's a lot of people with little kids
[3:05:28] would use it.
[3:05:28] >> They do it regularly. Uh absolutely.
[3:05:32] So um and there's not a lot of parking
[3:05:34] at Kiwanis. So when you have a bunch of
[3:05:37] kids you're carrying around, it's really
[3:05:38] hard to find a place to park that you're
[3:05:40] not running across the street, which is
[3:05:41] dangerous. So like that's a coveted
[3:05:44] parking area when you are playing with
[3:05:45] your bunch of kids.
[3:05:47] Um
[3:05:49] I
[3:05:51] I'm definitely not open to selling any
[3:05:54] of Provo's parkland and I consider this
[3:05:56] parkland. I don't care if it becomes a
[3:05:58] rose garden or parking lots or
[3:06:01] more playground.
[3:06:04] It's very valuable space and
[3:06:07] I definitely want to
[3:06:08] keep it. This is what All we're doing is
[3:06:10] growing more dense. We're just more and
[3:06:11] more people. The last thing you want to
[3:06:13] do is lessen our park space we want. And
[3:06:15] I'm very perplexed by the price because
[3:06:18] lots are selling in the city for a half
[3:06:20] acre at a million dollars. So, this
[3:06:22] price seems ridiculous to me. And I had
[3:06:24] multiple people reach out to me on that
[3:06:25] account saying this price It probably
[3:06:26] has a lot to do with the zoning. This
[3:06:28] price is
[3:06:30] really cheap.
[3:06:32] And um
[3:06:35] the
[3:06:36] I I've heard from over
[3:06:39] call
[3:06:40] I've heard from over 75 people through
[3:06:42] email, text, phone calls.
[3:06:45] Um and not one person supports the idea
[3:06:48] of this.
[3:06:49] And I'm not surprised by that. I think
[3:06:51] there is still a lot of hard feelings
[3:06:52] about Wasatch cuz I heard about that a
[3:06:54] lot from people, too. Yeah. There's I
[3:06:56] don't know when Provo will ever get over
[3:06:58] that land swap. So, um
[3:07:01] it's it's still painful.
[3:07:04] But um lots of comments about the
[3:07:06] parking garages. People want parking
[3:07:08] garages and they they think it's very
[3:07:10] overdue and they're frustrated seeing
[3:07:11] the music building being built without a
[3:07:12] parking garage. And now the ASB being
[3:07:15] built without a parking garage. I don't
[3:07:16] know if that's true. That's what they
[3:07:17] told me. But um that there should be
[3:07:20] parking garages on the bottom. There
[3:07:21] should be our parking garages on the
[3:07:22] land that they own.
[3:07:24] And that um
[3:07:26] that the park is
[3:07:28] also very um
[3:07:31] very strong consensus that parking is
[3:07:33] very much needed. I heard from a lot of
[3:07:35] BYU employees saying parking's a
[3:07:37] nightmare. And BYU employees have been
[3:07:39] dealing with this forever. A bunch of
[3:07:40] retired people even said it's always
[3:07:41] been a problem the whole time before I
[3:07:42] retired. So, parking is a problem. They
[3:07:45] acknowledge that, but this isn't the
[3:07:47] solution.
[3:07:49] Councilor Christensen? No.
[3:07:52] Yeah, so the issues around the
[3:07:54] playgrounds playgrounds come and go.
[3:07:57] Uh
[3:07:58] prime land like this does not.
[3:08:00] This will not This will not come back. I
[3:08:03] and I I can see be why BYU would want to
[3:08:05] land bank this.
[3:08:07] Uh it's a very prudent thing to to ask
[3:08:10] for. I I appreciate that BYU is not
[3:08:12] being heavy-handed about this.
[3:08:14] Um
[3:08:16] and it's also prudent that Provo land
[3:08:18] bank.
[3:08:19] So, whether this is set up as a park,
[3:08:22] you know, has been seen on that in a
[3:08:24] different list. This is This is land
[3:08:26] that will not come back to us. And I
[3:08:29] would be a hard pass on this.
[3:08:33] Councilor Chris Sorry, Councilor
[3:08:35] Whitlock.
[3:08:36] Um one of the thing that was I also
[3:08:38] heard a lot from constituents that I was
[3:08:39] curious if someone from Parks and Rec
[3:08:41] could speak to is that Kiwanis is one of
[3:08:43] the most heavily trafficked parks in the
[3:08:45] city. Do you have any data or
[3:08:47] um
[3:08:48] research to suggest kind of what the
[3:08:50] relative use of Kiwanis to what to other
[3:08:52] parks?
[3:08:55] I would say that Kiwanis is one of the
[3:08:57] heavier used parks, especially around uh
[3:09:00] the 4th of July holiday for viewing
[3:09:02] fireworks.
[3:09:04] Um but after the holiday impacts, it is
[3:09:08] probably one of the more It's I would
[3:09:10] say it falls within
[3:09:12] regular use of
[3:09:14] capacity for the park. It's a larger
[3:09:16] park, so people can spread out well in
[3:09:17] there.
[3:09:18] Um I would have to get you the actual
[3:09:20] numbers, but I I can get them for you in
[3:09:22] those.
[3:09:26] Councilor Whitlock.
[3:09:29] Yeah, I would
[3:09:31] um
[3:09:31] I would be open to
[3:09:34] some sort of an agreement where BYU is
[3:09:36] able to use the existing parking lots
[3:09:38] that are there. I wouldn't want any
[3:09:41] landscaping change or anything like that
[3:09:44] because
[3:09:46] um
[3:09:47] a lot of the need for that parking space
[3:09:51] by the community would be weekends or
[3:09:53] other times that it wouldn't be
[3:09:54] necessary for the BYU employees. I think
[3:09:57] that would be a good faith solution.
[3:10:00] That's a very temporary one just while
[3:10:02] the ASB's being constructed and that
[3:10:04] overflow parking is needed.
[3:10:06] Um, I think we do need to work with the
[3:10:09] BYU since we
[3:10:11] are sharing a property line and we have
[3:10:14] assets that are crossing over that line
[3:10:16] for those parks or the playgrounds to
[3:10:19] get that figured out. And they've been
[3:10:21] pretty good at working with us on things
[3:10:23] like that.
[3:10:24] I am completely opposed to selling the
[3:10:27] property.
[3:10:28] Um, I can remember going to both of
[3:10:30] these playgrounds when I was an
[3:10:32] undergrad and just assuming that the
[3:10:35] reason that there were fences there was
[3:10:37] for restriction during the school day,
[3:10:39] but that those were community assets the
[3:10:41] rest of the time. And I believe that's
[3:10:43] how most people in the community treat
[3:10:45] it,
[3:10:46] um, even if parks hadn't been
[3:10:47] recognizing that officially.
[3:10:49] And I mean, this is where I got engaged.
[3:10:52] So, I've got like a strong emotional
[3:10:55] ties to this park even though I don't
[3:10:57] live next to it.
[3:11:00] And I would also say I wouldn't have any
[3:11:03] trouble either, uh, coming up the
[3:11:05] short-term lease to accommodate,
[3:11:07] you know, construction the next few
[3:11:09] years with I don't have a problem with
[3:11:11] that at all. I heard that a lot from
[3:11:13] constituents that they would be open in
[3:11:14] the spirit of being good neighbors with
[3:11:16] something like that as long as it was,
[3:11:17] um,
[3:11:19] like you said, not altered. The property
[3:11:21] is not altered, just using the existing
[3:11:23] playground and, um,
[3:11:25] and it was beneficial to the city,
[3:11:27] uh, whether it's, you know, the the the
[3:11:29] cost of the lease or potentially
[3:11:31] some kind of contribution towards
[3:11:32] getting it back towards more park space.
[3:11:37] Councilor Bogden.
[3:11:38] John, may I have the captive?
[3:11:43] Um, the one thing that I did hear is the
[3:11:45] people really did like the playground
[3:11:48] that was
[3:11:49] and stuff.
[3:11:51] It is a great asset for young children,
[3:11:54] so that they can just not worry about
[3:11:55] them running around and running in
[3:11:57] places where they shouldn't be. Runners
[3:11:59] are Runners are always a thing under
[3:12:01] five, aren't they?
[3:12:02] But, um, that was really valued. I did
[3:12:04] never hear that they wanted that to go
[3:12:06] away. I don't know what the condition of
[3:12:07] that playground equipment is, and I
[3:12:09] don't know that we know.
[3:12:11] But, um,
[3:12:14] I have heard that residents are making
[3:12:17] their own repairs to some of our
[3:12:18] equipment, so
[3:12:20] the sooner that we can get some of that
[3:12:21] equipment
[3:12:23] redone, I think would be in our best
[3:12:26] interest.
[3:12:27] But, I just wanted to point that out. I
[3:12:28] don't know that they're up for tearing
[3:12:31] down the fencing, just leaving Maybe
[3:12:33] re-signing the fencing so that it's it's
[3:12:35] clear that it's okay to use it, but,
[3:12:38] yeah, keeping those shorties contained
[3:12:40] super useful. Also, I kind of like
[3:12:44] the old school swings and stuff like
[3:12:46] that. I Those are probably not up to any
[3:12:49] kind of standard, but they are
[3:12:55] Hey, any more discussion?
[3:12:59] All right, is that all you need from us?
[3:13:00] Yes. Okay, I think so. Yeah. Thank you.
[3:13:03] to BYU for coming.
[3:13:06] Yeah, the surplus you want cuz it
[3:13:08] doesn't sound like
[3:13:09] there would be support to move it. So,
[3:13:11] I'll talk to BYU about the possibility
[3:13:13] of a
[3:13:14] lease to see if that would work.
[3:13:17] I guess. Thank you, Tara. Thank you,
[3:13:18] BYU, for coming. Yeah, thank you for
[3:13:20] answering our questions. I think both of
[3:13:22] you like to go.
[3:13:24] I think you'd like to go. I don't think
[3:13:26] it's I sent her an email. We just got
[3:13:28] this.
[3:13:30] We have to pivot.
[3:13:32] All right, um, Brian, if you can please
[3:13:34] speak to our closed meeting.
[3:13:36] Yes, we do have an additional topic
[3:13:38] which deals with potential acquisition
[3:13:41] of property which is one of the
[3:13:44] purposes for strategy session regarding
[3:13:47] acquisition property which is a
[3:13:49] permitted
[3:13:50] purpose for a closed meeting in the
[3:13:51] statute. So, it'd be appropriate to move
[3:13:53] to closed meeting
[3:13:55] Great. We have a motion for a closed
[3:13:56] meeting.
[3:13:56] >> In that case, I'll move that we close
[3:13:58] this meeting. Awesome. I will second
[3:13:59] that. Wonderful. We will close the
[3:14:03] meeting.
[3:14:05] Do we need to do a vote? Yes, let's do a
[3:14:07] vote. All right, a vote on doing a
[3:14:09] closed meeting. Councilor Withall? Yes.
[3:14:11] Councilor Bogan? Yes. Councilor McKay?
[3:14:13] Yes. Councilor Christensen? Yes.
[3:14:15] Councilor Withlaw?
[3:14:15] >> Yes. Councilor Garrett?
[3:14:17] >> Yes. And that passes 7-0.
[3:14:19] 6-0. 6-0.