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Progress.

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Welcome to the Douglas Council work

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meeting

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Welcome [clears throat]

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to the Douglas Council work meeting. It

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is April 28th, 2026 and it is 1:00 p.m.

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We'll do a roll call of the elected

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officials.

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Jeff Welock. Stacy Bogdan.

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Patrice McCay. Gary Garrett. Rachel

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Whipple.

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And Craig Christiansen.

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we have online and

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Travis Hoban will be in a minute.

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Although this is a public meeting, only

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the presenters and those invited by the

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council may speak or ask questions

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unless otherwise invited by the chair.

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Please wait to speak until called on by

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council chair. When speaking, please be

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sure to use a microphone

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so the director is clear and those

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attending virtually can hear you.

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Please also be sure to limit side

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conversations as they interfere with the

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audio recording. If you make a side

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conversation, please step out of the

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work room.

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Is there a motion we approve the

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following minutes?

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April 24th, 2026 council meeting, April

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Sorry, March 24th, 2026 council meeting,

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April 14th, 2026 work meeting and April

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14th,

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2026 council meeting. Are there any

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objections or requested changes?

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Seeing no objection, I'll declare the

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minutes approved by unanimous consent.

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Our first item is a resolution amending

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the council audit committee charter and

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internal audit charter. This will be

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presented to us by Tanner Tokuchi and he

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is our council policy analyst.

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I want to get this

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Terrific. Thank you, council, for having

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me here today.

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Uh per our current audit committee

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charter and internal audit charter,

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uh the audit committee is required to

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review the charters on a regular basis

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and to present any changes. We've met

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with the audit committee and we've

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discussed a few proposed changes to the

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audit charters, which I wanted to review

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briefly

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here.

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So, the main changes in the audit

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committee charter that I wanted to

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highlight are that we're going to allow

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greater flexibility in the composition

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of the committee itself. Currently, uh

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it requires two councilors and two

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members of the public chosen by the

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council. That will be changed to allow

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like a varying uh composition between

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three to five members with at least one

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member of the public and at least two

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members of the council,

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uh which is it currently is right now.

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Uh after we've had the recent

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uh term ending

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this month.

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The next uh major change in the audit uh

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committee

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charter is that it will more explicitly

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designate the council executive director

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as the chief audit executive, which is

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an industry term for the person who

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deals with the board or in this case the

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committee. So, those are the two major

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changes to the audit committee charter.

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And then in the audit internal audit

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charter, it's the main change is

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changing uh the terms external and

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internal and the terms financial and

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performance to provide greater greater

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clarity for both the committee, the

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council and the public about what the

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functions

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uh of the audit function are of the

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audit committee are.

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And also adding a more explicit process

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for responding to fraud hotline uh

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complaints that are issued through the

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city.

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So, um I created just I sent out a memo

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that was updated on Monday uh kind of

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addressing some of the principles of

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auditing and government auditing that

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have come up.

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Sorry.

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>> Quick question, how often do we get

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fraud hotline complaints?

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I think maybe Justin would be best to

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answer that. I think it's a few I don't

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know. Actually, I won't speak. Yeah, so

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typically uh the audit committee meets

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about once a quarter. Um

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the average um number of complaints that

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come in are between one and two

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each quarter.

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In the four years I've been here, there

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have only been two that are actually

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related to the purpose of the hotline

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being

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um

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submissions related to fraud or abuse

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within the city. They're typically

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submitted by members of the public um

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who feel they have been either defrauded

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um

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by some private business, typically on

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social media, and so we will respond

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with standard language saying, "Thank

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you for your submission. Please report

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this to X division of the police

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department that deals with those types

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of claims." So,

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um

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Sorry, I should have kind of

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hit the hit the lead there, but so as

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far as real claims, there are very few

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that come in, um but we do receive them

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and then direct direct the public to the

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correct um place within the the police

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department where they can submit those

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uh

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claims if they have them

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in the private sector. Like a couple per

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year, Justin, right? Is you say? Yeah, a

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couple

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if that.

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One every every other year.

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And then none of them have been

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substantiated that we have come in. No.

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Not at this point.

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Thanks.

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So, and uh I actually neglected to

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mention one of the other major changes,

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which was

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that members of the committee, upon

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becoming members, will be asked to

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complete uh a training given by uh

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legislative office of legislative

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auditor general that covers the basic principles of government

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auditing and trying to make sure

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everyone's on the same page about what

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the purpose of the audit function is and

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the best practices of operating as the

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board of an audit function.

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Tanner, can you put the slide back? Go

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back one slide.

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When

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uh the council director, who is the

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current council director?

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Justin. Yeah, I'm referring to Justin in

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that in this case.

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So, it's clarifying that the Justin is the

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chief audit executive.

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That's correct. From my reading of the

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charter here, it's on the

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internal audit charter on the first

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page, it says the council executive

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director controls and supervises the

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internal audit activities. For when I

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read that, my interpretation is that

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essentially

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the director is functioning as the chief

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audit executive. This change just

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clarifies it to make it more explicit.

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Here's the Here's where it would be

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helpful. Brian, maybe you can help us

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out because I

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>> you talk more into your microphone? I'm

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actually trying to put my mouth right on

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top of it.

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Um

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sorry, I'm calling from a long way away.

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Um

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The ex- The it seems like the chief

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audit executive

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would be an auditor.

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Like a certified auditor, not

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um a designated person to be an an

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auditor.

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So, Tanner, I think it might be helpful

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to talk about how it typically is

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structured in the private sector and how

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we of course have limitations.

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Questions.

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Um I I actually agree with you, Craig,

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but um

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we'd have to allocate budget for that

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and hire somebody.

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Yeah.

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>> Um Sorry, Craig, I I didn't have my mic

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on, but in the in the private sector,

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typically you have a chief audit

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executive who's hired and reports

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directly to the board of directors.

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So, you know, HR and and payroll and

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salary, you know, might report dotted

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line to, you know, the CEO or president

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or whatever, but as far as

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accountability and hiring and firing and

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such, it's they report to

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the board of directors.

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Um so that they have the independence to

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be able to do their job, right? To be

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able to be objective and independent and

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not have be coerced or feel like they're, you know, if

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you're reporting to the CEO and you find

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that there's something shady going on,

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you might be hesitant because they have

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the power to fire you or dock your pay

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or whatever, right? But in this case,

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and so at the county level, it's a

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little different. So, if we're kind of

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transition to government now, you have

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county auditor who is an elected

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official who ultimately doesn't report

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to

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anybody but the taxpayers but the

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voters, right? And that's who they

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report to.

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So, it's just it's a little weird

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because we don't have the same structure

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that you would have in like a corporate

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environment. We could,

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as a council, we could hire a chief

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audit executive, somebody who's an

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auditor,

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um and they could serve as as that

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function and they could report to us, um

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but there's also some limitations that

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Brian probably should talk about in the

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separation of

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branches of government that we can't

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really compel We're not really uh

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given authority by the state to really

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do much in any case in any case. So,

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there's just some limitations on what we

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can do. But the the reason the thought

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was just that the council director be

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the chief audit executive is because

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basically to to to handle the

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administrative aspect of it, like making

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sure that we get the

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um

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we get the external auditors hired,

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external and internal auditors hired,

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and following up on on things. Um but

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yeah, I agree with you, they should be

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an auditor. But anyways, that's a lot of

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info just but I just wanted to give you

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context of kind of

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what this should look like and then the

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limitations we have.

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Well, actually that that's It's helpful,

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Travis. Thank you. I guess my follow-up

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question would be is there another

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function in the city

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that acts as an independent auditor

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other than this

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uh the position we're talking about now?

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No. I'd say

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I would say no. If that was directed to

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me, sorry.

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Yeah. What Well, let's legally go over.

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I can go over the the standards Okay.

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Brian can explain this stuff. Pop it

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Well, I think maybe it might help Brian

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00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,480
I think broadly I think we should hear

284
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:27,800
from Brian first and then get into the

285
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,840
details. I think.

286
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,080
Uh and I don't want to I was going to

287
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,920
say I I haven't reviewed

288
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,360
uh Tanner's presentation, so I don't

289
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,160
want to step on his toes and go over

290
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,520
anything that he's already going to go

291
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,520
over, but I I mean this it's a little

292
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,800
bit of a weird situation. Uh

293
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:43,920
Travis and I were just talking about

294
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,200
this a few minutes ago and we've had

295
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,440
some previous conversations before.

296
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,920
So,

297
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,640
as Travis is pointing out, at the state

298
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,840
and the county level code actually

299
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,080
creates the auditor position

300
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,400
and says what it's supposed to do. At

301
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,640
the city level, there is no such thing.

302
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,160
And not even at the state

303
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,560
it's not even

304
00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,440
neces- it's not a requirement that we

305
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,040
have an auditor. It's not even a a

306
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,120
recommendation necessarily from the

307
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,560
state auditor that we have one. It's

308
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:14,560
more of a we've got this checklist that

309
00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:17,000
we get points if we have one.

310
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,800
We have plenty of points if we don't

311
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,000
have one.

312
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,080
Most cities don't have one. Most cities

313
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,400
have not even, as I understand it, even

314
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:26,520
with the

315
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,800
with this point chart, haven't taken the

316
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,400
step of adopting them.

317
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,839
And which is interesting because in most

318
00:11:33,839 --> 00:11:35,920
other cities with different forms of

319
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,360
government, it would actually be easier

320
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,160
for them to have one

321
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:40,440
than it is for us.

322
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,000
But so So, we my understanding is from

323
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,240
the institutional history is that, you

324
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,680
know, we we like points. So, when this scorecard came out, we decided we

325
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:52,320
wanted more points. We said, "Let Let's

326
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:53,640
do one."

327
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,360
And there was a recommendation

328
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,000
that I think was

329
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,520
maybe not completely thought through

330
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,760
from

331
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,200
that I think came from the state

332
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,680
auditor's office of, "Well, if you're

333
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,640
going to have one, it probably shouldn't

334
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,120
be in the administration because it's

335
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,839
probably overseeing the administration."

336
00:12:11,839 --> 00:12:14,680
Well, on the on the surface, that makes

337
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:16,120
sense.

338
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,960
Except that then the practicalities of

339
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,560
it become very difficult because

340
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,640
while one of the council's statutory in

341
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,120
code functions is administrative

342
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,839
oversight,

343
00:12:28,839 --> 00:12:31,440
there is no specified

344
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,520
definition of what that means, how that

345
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,839
power is wielded, what the consequences

346
00:12:35,839 --> 00:12:38,120
of wielding that power are.

347
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:39,120
I mean, at the end of the day, we've had

348
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,040
this discussion before.

349
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,920
The way that power is wielded is really

350
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,480
through the budget, right? I mean,

351
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,520
essentially what the council does in

352
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,120
administrative oversight is ask

353
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,839
questions

354
00:12:50,839 --> 00:12:52,880
and threaten how they will use the

355
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,480
budget if they don't get the answers

356
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,240
they want, right? They don't have

357
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,480
subpoena power. They don't have They're essentially completely uh

358
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,200
at the

359
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,280
uh discretion of the administration

360
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,760
whether the administration answers the

361
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,880
questions or not. And And that same

362
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,760
problem flows over into the audit

363
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,000
function

364
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,160
if the auditor

365
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,800
is only answerable to the council. So,

366
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,720
the council can

367
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,640
hire an auditor. They can, you know, you

368
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,920
can create a position inside your your

369
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,480
staff office.

370
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,080
And you can hire an auditor. You can pay

371
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,520
them. You can do whatever you want.

372
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,800
The minute that they turn to the

373
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,800
administration and say, "Here's the

374
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,120
things that I want to look at."

375
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,160
The administration could, under our form

376
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,120
of government, say, "We don't want to

377
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,400
answer those questions." Now, you then

378
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,400
have power, like I just mentioned about

379
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,360
the budget, about how you respond to

380
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,720
that non-response.

381
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,320
But there's nothing in state or city

382
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,160
code or even guidance from the state

383
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,320
auditor's office that grants that

384
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,440
defines any of these powers or says how

385
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,720
any of this should work, right?

386
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,760
And so, that's why in one of the

387
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,120
previous conversations that we had in

388
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,440
the audit committee about this,

389
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:07,960
I said, "Well,

390
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,640
if [clears throat] you really want this

391
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,200
to function the best way possible, I

392
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,560
think there needs to be an alignment

393
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,720
between the administration and the

394
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,480
council about what

395
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,640
the audit what the auditor does, what

396
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,760
the auditor is, right? And in some ways,

397
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,720
they would actually have, and this is

398
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,079
somewhat ironic, but in some ways they'd

399
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:28,240
actually have more power

400
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,800
if they were an administrative an

401
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,480
executive branch employee than if

402
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,440
they're a council branch employee, as

403
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,800
long as

404
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,400
their duties were defined somehow. You

405
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,600
know, we could build that into title two

406
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,200
of the code and and define what their powers and responsibilities

407
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,400
are. Um

408
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,160
But those are anyway, I've probably gone

409
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,560
on too long. Those But those are some of

410
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:51,760
the struggles in the sense that there's

411
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,320
this real very real

412
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,280
Yeah. limit on what happened Everything

413
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,760
works fine as long as there's

414
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,760
cooperation. And then there are real

415
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,920
awkward logistical limits if there is if

416
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,160
there is. Well, on the downside of

417
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,079
having it somebody who reports to say

418
00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:08,880
the mayor is, what if

419
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,760
No. Our mayor would ever do this or

420
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,320
Scott would ever do this, but like what

421
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:13,640
if they're like, "Eh, let's just keep

422
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,079
that on the down low and not let anybody

423
00:15:15,079 --> 00:15:16,720
know about that. You're my employee. You

424
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,400
do what I say, right?"

425
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,760
>> Right. So, it goes in the flies directly

426
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,079
in the face of like the independence of

427
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:24,360
auditing, which is like the number one

428
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,400
aspect of auditing, right? But I get the

429
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,160
practical considerations. But the flip

430
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,480
side of that, and this is why at the

431
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880
county and the state level, again,

432
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,200
now we recognize at the state level,

433
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,120
state auditor is not answerable to the

434
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,800
legislature. And at the county level,

435
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,560
the county auditor is not answerable to

436
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,920
the commission for the exact same reason

437
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,040
because having an auditor that is

438
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,440
answerable to either branch of

439
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,240
government, but only to that branch of

440
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,720
government, creates the same problem

441
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,360
because the council could Yeah. wield

442
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,000
the auditor in a political way in the

443
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,120
same way that the mayor could. Does that

444
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,640
make sense?

445
00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:59,959
So.

446
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:01,079
>> Glad you got seven of us. You don't have

447
00:16:01,079 --> 00:16:03,480
to convince us. You can keep your quiet.

448
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,160
Which is going to be a lot harder. Yeah.

449
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,959
Um

450
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:08,520
What are the points for? Do we care? Is

451
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,280
it like best in state? We don't have to

452
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,000
do this.

453
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,000
Well, I I think we should. I think it's

454
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,839
good for transparency for our people.

455
00:16:15,839 --> 00:16:18,120
Right. But Um

456
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,400
and I think it I think it helps people

457
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:21,880
feel better about where their tax money

458
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,880
is going. But what are what's the point

459
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,240
system for? Is it like best in state?

460
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:28,560
Do you Do you want to speak to that? No.

461
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,079
You can. The point system just uh gives

462
00:16:31,079 --> 00:16:33,040
you a feel for the level of

463
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,839
responsibility that your finance

464
00:16:34,839 --> 00:16:37,680
department is is undertaking. So, for

465
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,280
example, 180 to 220 points would give

466
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,360
you an A rating. And currently, we we're

467
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,320
at 190 even. But then adding the auditor

468
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,480
function puts us at 210.

469
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400
So, it's just a a way to show how

470
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,640
effective our finance and audit

471
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,640
functions are in the city. And so, does

472
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,600
the state put this out on some website

473
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,760
that Provo City is a great A

474
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,240
financial institution?

475
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,600
>> Well, it could be around if somebody

476
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:03,600
really wanted to look it up. It's not

477
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,480
like they're posting it, but it is

478
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,439
something that is tracked by the state.

479
00:17:08,439 --> 00:17:10,760
>> So again, why do we care? So, each year,

480
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,679
it is a requirement that cities go

481
00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:13,959
through what's called the fraud risk

482
00:17:13,959 --> 00:17:16,480
assessment, statutorily required. And

483
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,199
it's after

484
00:17:18,199 --> 00:17:19,240
um

485
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,600
we receive our audited financial

486
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,720
statements from our

487
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,600
external auditor. Um

488
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,520
And to to Counselor Garrett's point, so

489
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,040
there's a breadth of questions that are

490
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,840
asked. The majority ask about controls.

491
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,280
Um is there separation there? But

492
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,679
it's it's this awkward question of

493
00:17:39,679 --> 00:17:42,320
do you have an audit committee? Is there

494
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,880
um you know, do you perform independent

495
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,600
audits?

496
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,240
The questions are asked and points are

497
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,679
given, but it's also not a requirement

498
00:17:49,679 --> 00:17:53,080
of municipalities. Um it is for school

499
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,720
districts. So, it's this it's this place

500
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,800
in code that doesn't quite match up.

501
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,880
They're trying The fraud risk assessment

502
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,960
list is this kind of one-size-fits-all

503
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,640
uh checklist for taxing entities,

504
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,240
but all the questions don't necessarily

505
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,800
apply to everyone. That makes sense.

506
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,480
>> Right. But it nobody's really answering

507
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,120
my question. But I would say Why Why do

508
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,200
we care if we're rated an A, B, C, D, or

509
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,720
E?

510
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,480
I I mean, I think Travis answered your

511
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:20,960
question by saying we're overachievers.

512
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,840
That's literally why we care.

513
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,880
Okay. I think There's no platform

514
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,159
finance as well. There's no I bet if you

515
00:18:27,159 --> 00:18:29,120
came in and you didn't probably start to

516
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:30,640
get some pretty harsh oversight from the

517
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,880
state auditors. I would guess. Right.

518
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,120
They would look at Yeah.

519
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,800
>> They would start to look at You do for

520
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,960
us. But isn't some of that Sorry. Aren't

521
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,440
a few of your comments a little

522
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,200
orthogonal to what's before us? We

523
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,919
already set up the structure in the

524
00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:45,480
independent auditor.

525
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:46,520
Are you just giving you're just giving

526
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,840
broad context? Yeah. Well, I'm giving

527
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,679
broad context because of questions that

528
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:54,480
have come up inside the audit committee

529
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,320
since it got set up. I mean, Got it.

530
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,200
may not be

531
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,800
Tanner's giving you recommendations

532
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,600
about how to improve the charter. There

533
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,280
are some baseline questions about how

534
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,400
effective it is at all. with or without

535
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,760
the changes, right? Because And some of

536
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,880
that has to do with who gets selected as

537
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,960
the auditor and what their role is. Um

538
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,360
and what the in my view, what the

539
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,600
committee's role is in

540
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:22,600
kind of

541
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,360
uh overseeing that auditor and

542
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:28,560
coordinating with the with the

543
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,640
administration about,

544
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,159
you know, having kind of some shared

545
00:19:33,159 --> 00:19:35,520
vision about what the auditor does. I'm

546
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,360
going to give a few examples

547
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:40,200
of just broadly why I think the audit

548
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,120
committee is important. So,

549
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:44,480
um

550
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,640
in recent months,

551
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,840
the hot the fraud hotline, we had one

552
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,240
tip about an employee. And we're still

553
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,000
looking into that if that's, you know,

554
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,200
even relevant or valid, but somebody

555
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,040
sent a sent a tip in that said, "Hey,

556
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,160
this employee is using their position,

557
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,760
you know, whatever." And then we had

558
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,120
another one about a department that we

559
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:05,960
need to look at.

560
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,200
And so,

561
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,160
those are coming to the audit committee.

562
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,800
Well, they weren't. For some reason,

563
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,040
they were

564
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,880
they weren't being Typically, they would

565
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,280
come to us, but I think there was a

566
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:16,360
glitch in the system and we weren't

567
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:17,920
getting them, but But those are coming

568
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,240
to the audit committee and

569
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,120
it gives us the opportunity as

570
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:23,840
kind of an outsider to take a look and

571
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,040
say, "Hey, is this something relevant,

572
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,840
something we need to look at in more

573
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,880
detail, in more depth, something we

574
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,240
should be concerned about?" I I think if

575
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,200
those go to the administration, then you

576
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,160
have the the fox guarding the hen house,

577
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:40,120
so to speak, right? You're These are concerns about the

578
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,760
you know, administration. And then we

579
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,240
don't know if they're valid or relevant

580
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,800
or Just just know, guys. Like, we get

581
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,960
all sorts of stuff. But it's the ability

582
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,680
for us as kind of an

583
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,760
a check a check and a balance on that,

584
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,280
right? And if you do away with an audit

585
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,720
committee, you don't have that.

586
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,720
Um not to mention, we also

587
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,280
like Jeff Miles, our auditor, external

588
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,320
auditor, who audits the financials, um

589
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,960
HBM&E, I think is the name of their

590
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,240
firm. Um you know, we can be a check and

591
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:11,680
a balance on that. Like, are we just

592
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,440
hiring the same guy every time cuz he

593
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:14,720
get, you know, tells us what we want to

594
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,320
hear or are we are we, you know, going

595
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,560
out to bid legitimately and and taking

596
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,760
an entertaining other bids. So, it's

597
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,080
just a it's just a check and a balance,

598
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,800
another set of eyes.

599
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,440
Um I think there's a lot of value in it.

600
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,280
Um so, I don't

601
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,800
want to overcomplicate it and say like,

602
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,000
you know, well, how how effective is it

603
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,960
even? And I would rather have it and

604
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,480
have it maybe be only so effective than

605
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,480
not have it at all, right? Is my two

606
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,360
cents, but

607
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,360
Um The council will like I mean, I think

608
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:43,760
you make you raise a good point. I

609
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,320
talked about a lot of stuff that's not

610
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,360
necessarily what's in front of you. It's

611
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:48,800
because there's been a lot of questions

612
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,640
over the last six months. Travis was

613
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:51,760
asking me a bunch of these questions

614
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,480
half on the board, so I kind went off.

615
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,120
Right. off board

616
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,280
brain work. Just wanted clarity. Mostly,

617
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,320
I wanted clarity on what does the state

618
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,840
What authority power does the state give

619
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,115
us in it? Basically, none. So.

620
00:22:03,115 --> 00:22:03,720
>> [laughter]

621
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,520
>> But why is it not? I mean, he's saying

622
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:05,720
that

623
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,080
>> It should be clarified, but

624
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,440
>> He's saying that we can do whatever

625
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,200
audit we want.

626
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,760
Um I think the difference being this can

627
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,080
attempt to do Yeah. So, so the county and the

628
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,040
state, they can do whatever they want

629
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,840
within bounds and nobody can say no.

630
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,400
Unfortunately for us, that's not the

631
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,160
case. Right to the information

632
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,840
effectively. To access unfettered access

633
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,000
to certain things and we don't.

634
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,320
>> So, Brian, could we codify some of this

635
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,840
and say, "Okay,

636
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,520
The state would There have to be a state

637
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,320
It's got to be the state that does it.

638
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,440
We can't codify it here. Yeah. I mean, I

639
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,760
think we could I mean, we have a lot of

640
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,840
positions that are defined in our code.

641
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,400
If we wanted to create a position and

642
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,960
define it in code, we certainly could.

643
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,560
We can't

644
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,960
I mean, it But on the other hand, the specific prohibition on the council

645
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,560
that says, "You may not direct executive

646
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,760
branch staff." That is in state code and

647
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,679
would supersede it all. It supersede

648
00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:07,840
anything we did. So, we couldn't codify

649
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,240
something that violates that principle.

650
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,360
Right. But we could certainly

651
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,560
clarify some things.

652
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,560
I do want to say, we haven't really had

653
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,920
any problems with the administration

654
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,080
like working with us on the audit

655
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,040
committee. So,

656
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,560
you know, we're It's kind of like, let's

657
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,040
make some improvements, keep doing

658
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,240
things how we're doing them, and if they

659
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,360
needed to change in the future, they

660
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:32,960
could. I don't think anything's broken

661
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,280
right now is what I'm saying. Like, I

662
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,400
don't

663
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,960
I think we were just more so doing some

664
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,200
housekeeping and clean up on how we

665
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,679
define things, right? And who does what.

666
00:23:43,679 --> 00:23:45,800
But uh Craig, did that answer your

667
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,606
question?

668
00:23:46,606 --> 00:23:47,280
>> [laughter]

669
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:48,880
>> Sure. Sure.

670
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,679
Actually, yes. It's very It's very

671
00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:51,960
helpful and

672
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,720
um I guess my response would be

673
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,000
um

674
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,640
as a citizen,

675
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,400
I want an independent audit. I I want

676
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,560
someone looking I don't care if the

677
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,400
state requires it or not. Just because

678
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,240
it's

679
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,840
not required doesn't mean it wouldn't be

680
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,320
prudent

681
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,360
for a city like Provo or every city

682
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:15,000
to take a a higher standard, especially

683
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,320
when it comes

684
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,679
to how we use tax dollars. So,

685
00:24:18,679 --> 00:24:21,160
um I applaud the good work that's gone

686
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,720
on in terms of the audit committee.

687
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,600
And I would encourage us to

688
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,120
um instead of asking the question,

689
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,760
"What's required?" Uh I think we ought

690
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,000
to be asking the question, "What would

691
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,360
be

692
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,200
in the best interest of the citizens?"

693
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,080
And an independent auditor who is

694
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,560
looking anywhere and everywhere,

695
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600
um and as a check and balance, I think

696
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,520
it's good for the administration. I

697
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,960
think it's good for the council. I think

698
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,760
it's good for the city just overall.

699
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,840
Hey, Craig.

700
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,720
I appreciate what we've what we've done

701
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,280
and I would

702
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,280
I think we could do even more.

703
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,160
Yeah, and let me let me clarify and

704
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,840
probably everybody was jumping up ready

705
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,640
to say this that the state does does uh

706
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,760
require that we do hire an external

707
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,000
independent auditor for the financial

708
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,320
side of to look at the finances, the

709
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,200
city's finances. So, that is there.

710
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Um where there isn't clarity is

711
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,080
regarding anything outside of that. So,

712
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,520
um

713
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:29,990
yeah, that's that's the issue. Yeah.

714
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,280
I have um I have I have just a couple

715
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,600
questions about sort of the changes

716
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,640
before us. So,

717
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,880
previously, we require it the

718
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,640
composition of the body required at

719
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,040
least two members of the public.

720
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,600
Correct. Now, we could have two

721
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:44,960
counselors and one member of the public.

722
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,520
That's correct.

723
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,520
>> Can you explain the thoughts on that?

724
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,440
Were we having a hard time getting

725
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,920
people? Like, generally, I think

726
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,600
qualified. Yeah. I'm just curious about

727
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:51,360
that.

728
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,800
Yeah, I think the ability to have more

729
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,880
or or fewer members of the public is

730
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,240
just a matter of flexibility depending

731
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,040
on what the pool of applicants would be

732
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,520
for those members of the public for the

733
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,920
public positions. Well, from a

734
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,760
governance standpoint, though,

735
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,679
you want to ensure that the council

736
00:26:05,679 --> 00:26:09,000
members are the majority vote Right. on

737
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,400
the audit committee.

738
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,880
Um cuz we're the ones that are elected

739
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,640
and have invested interest, right? So,

740
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,560
you would never want one council member

741
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,880
and two members of the public and then

742
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,360
all of a sudden,

743
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,320
um you know, the the audit committee is

744
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,760
kind of dictated by public only, not the

745
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,440
people that ultimately should be

746
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,040
part of ultimately in control I'll say

747
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,000
this, in control of governing the audit

748
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,920
committee, right? It should be council

749
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,400
members. So,

750
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,880
right now, we have two members on the

751
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,800
audit committee from the council. And

752
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,280
so, only one the member of the public to

753
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,560
ensure that the the governance is still

754
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,480
in the hands of the council. But we

755
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,840
could go to three and then we could have

756
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,040
two members of the public, which would

757
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,800
be ideal, but then we just need somebody

758
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,840
to volunteer from the council.

759
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,310
Or three and one.

760
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,160
Um just not saying we need to, but just

761
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,000
throwing this out there is like having a

762
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,760
concept of like a observer could be an

763
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,560
interesting concept. Like, a lot of

764
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,400
times in boards, you have you have board

765
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:06,880
observers who are there and have are not

766
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,040
can be part of the conversation, but

767
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,600
don't have voting rights. That could be

768
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,640
a way to have more public kind of

769
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,280
input, but not have them have control.

770
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,960
You would just want to be sure that the

771
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,960
observer would observe the

772
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,760
confidentiality and other things in the

773
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,240
discussions that are mentioned in the

774
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,040
charter as well if they have that

775
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,520
position.

776
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,000
Um and I also suppose that if we were

777
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,960
like right now in an adversarial

778
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,160
position against the administration,

779
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,679
there is a lot that the audit committee

780
00:27:35,679 --> 00:27:38,200
could do with grammar request

781
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,320
and gathering information that very

782
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,240
adversarial way to help perform their

783
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:44,360
audits.

784
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,000
That would be more expensive and more

785
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,800
fun for the lawyers, but that that would

786
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,760
be the workaround if there really is no

787
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,880
possibility of cooperation.

788
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,040
I I agree. Um

789
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,230
my suspicion is that in a

790
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,080
Again, if we're looking out at the

791
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,200
edges, if we're looking at the edge

792
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,920
cases,

793
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,640
probably a lot of the documents that you

794
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,440
would want in the edge case would be

795
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,360
protected.

796
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,200
Yeah.

797
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,040
Your position would be fun then. Yes,

798
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,720
that would be fun. Well, fortunately, I

799
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,089
don't review the grammar requests.

800
00:28:19,089 --> 00:28:22,149
>> [laughter]

801
00:28:22,159 --> 00:28:25,040
» All right. Terrific. So, um if Jeremy

802
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,400
here, if it's okay, I could just if I

803
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,200
can just directly address Craig's

804
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,560
earlier question about the

805
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,080
qualifications. So, uh Counselor

806
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,040
Christensen, I'm just pointing to the

807
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,840
internal audit standards. Uh this is uh

808
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,640
just in it's called the red book.

809
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:40,960
And it says, "While the global internal

810
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,880
audit standards apply to all audit

811
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,200
functions, auditors in the public sector

812
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,960
work in an political environment under

813
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,360
governance, organizational, and funding

814
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,520
structures that may differ from the

815
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,280
private sector, these differences may

816
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,320
affect how audit functions

817
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,120
uh apply the standards." And I also

818
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,600
pulled up this paragraph here, which

819
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,159
says, "While the list, which includes,

820
00:28:59,159 --> 00:29:00,960
to Craig's point, the ideal of them

821
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,600
being a certified internal auditor,

822
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,240
while that list includes ideal

823
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,640
competencies and qualifications, the

824
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,320
chief audit executive may be selected

825
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,320
for other qualities or areas of

826
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,840
expertise that are supplemented by the

827
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,720
competencies of other members of the

828
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,640
internal audit function." So, if

829
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,440
the council executive director, for

830
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,159
example, were to go out and to contract

831
00:29:19,159 --> 00:29:20,679
with a consultant who has auditing

832
00:29:20,679 --> 00:29:22,400
experience,

833
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,800
the director would be connected to the

834
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,280
areas of risk that the council has

835
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,240
pointed out, the priority areas that the

836
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,480
committee wants to study, and then they

837
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,280
would also lean in work with people with

838
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,080
actual auditing experience in order to

839
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,480
lead that team. So, hopefully that also

840
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,080
kind of addresses your concern there,

841
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,640
Counselor Christensen. That's helpful.

842
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,280
Thank you. Awesome. Uh ano- another

843
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,760
question I had was

844
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,400
So, with um the council director being

845
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,960
also the

846
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,400
director effectively of the audit

847
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,520
committee, do we I didn't see like a

848
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,160
refusal process or some other

849
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,200
Do we need to spell that out if for

850
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,320
example there's a conflict of interest

851
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,080
as the audit committee is looking at

852
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,150
things?

853
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,480
That's an interesting question. Uh if

854
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,080
there's a personal conflict conflict of

855
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,760
interest, I think that would in most

856
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,440
cases be covered under other areas of

857
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,280
statute because the councilor or the

858
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,880
council executive director's area of

859
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,000
like super supervisory influence would

860
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,040
be limited to our branch of government

861
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,600
while the auditee organizations would be

862
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,200
in the other branch of government. I

863
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,600
don't see any problem with trying

864
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,840
exploring language to to cover that. I

865
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,160
imagine that would be covered by other

866
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,520
areas of statute, but I can't say for

867
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:41,070
sure.

868
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,920
Everything he does has to be approved by

869
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,600
the council chair.

870
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,440
I can see a world too

871
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,360
where as the you know, fringe scenario

872
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,800
too where the administration isn't they

873
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,840
wants to look at the finances of the

874
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,160
council budget or something like that,

875
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,200
you know.

876
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,960
I don't know.

877
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,680
Like

878
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,600
It's it's just hard. It's hard because

879
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,680
we don't have explicit no there's no

880
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,240
explicit controls like that, you know.

881
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,800
Save room.

882
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,320
But still everything gets down to

883
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,040
finance, right? She's under them.

884
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,000
>> Yeah. And even our our budget, our

885
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,000
expenses, everything goes through them.

886
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,520
So I would say

887
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,000
in a way they kind of audit us anyway.

888
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,680
Yeah.

889
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,240
I guess what I would say is we we can

890
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,640
definitely look into that and see if

891
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,720
there there would be something

892
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,320
to add to the charter um

893
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,760
under city employment city employees

894
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,680
also do sign confidentiality

895
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,680
um

896
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,240
and um

897
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,120
Gosh, what's the word I'm looking

898
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,240
Conflict of interest. Conflict of

899
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,720
interest disclosure. So

900
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,320
um I think that would

901
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,600
if that gives any kind of comfort um

902
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,160
that is there, we can look at expanding

903
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,679
that language um but also spelled out in

904
00:31:54,679 --> 00:31:56,040
the charter

905
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:56,720
um

906
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,000
council office employees

907
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,640
and whatever you want to call this

908
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120
position refer to it um

909
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,080
direction is taken from the audit

910
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,160
committee and then

911
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,720
kind of taking a step back in the

912
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,000
council role from council leadership and

913
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,710
the council body, so um

914
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,960
There's never

915
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,000
a perfect scenario, I will say. You

916
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,040
never you never know who people are, but

917
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:25,720
um

918
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,320
I think there are adequate controls in

919
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,480
place for that, but happy to look into

920
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,590
that more.

921
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,600
So

922
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,550
What did you look into this year?

923
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,040
Um so we started looking at 311. We were

924
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,800
looking at 311, but we didn't make it

925
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,800
through

926
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,280
um

927
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,360
due to a variety of things the audit

928
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,880
team completed, so

929
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,920
I have a few ideas for the upcoming year

930
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,679
um

931
00:32:55,679 --> 00:32:57,400
probably to talk we would talk about

932
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,040
them in that closed session I think. And

933
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,679
business license

934
00:33:01,679 --> 00:33:04,350
fees

935
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,880
to some extent. Did we talk didn't we

936
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,120
talk about that?

937
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,360
We did. We talked a little bit about how

938
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,679
the council prioritized this licensing

939
00:33:13,679 --> 00:33:16,000
and um

940
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,760
code enforcement process review as

941
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,880
fitting under this, but the audit

942
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,080
committee still wanted to look for

943
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,280
another

944
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,520
project or or audit project that would

945
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,200
fit within that scope of whether it be

946
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,360
an internal audit or

947
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,200
performance audit or some other type. So

948
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,080
um that's ongoing and the RFP's out

949
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,800
currently, but

950
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,600
still looking for additional ones.

951
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,200
Yeah,

952
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,560
you know, you kind of asked me that

953
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,480
question brings up good point that

954
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,000
it's probably a conversation we should

955
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,960
be having more with the full body of the

956
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,160
council

957
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,760
of like what do we want to what do we

958
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,280
want to look at this year for internal

959
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:57,400
audit?

960
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,400
Um

961
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,520
you know, maybe the audit committee

962
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,000
comes up with two, three, four ideas in

963
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,600
conjunction with the administration and

964
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,200
bring that to the council in a closed

965
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,200
session maybe to discuss if if there's

966
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,679
something sensitive, right? Cuz

967
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:12,399
sometimes there is.

968
00:34:12,399 --> 00:34:13,960
Um

969
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,560
But this year we we because of some of

970
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,080
the issues around lack of clarity, we had some issues with the internal

971
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,159
audit

972
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:23,399
um

973
00:34:23,399 --> 00:34:24,600
and

974
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,520
the contract and such, so it didn't get done unfortunately, but

975
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,760
that's why we're hoping to clean some of

976
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,080
this up so that we can move forward a

977
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,990
little more smoothly in the future.

978
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,000
But to your point earlier Craig and and

979
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,320
sorry Tanner to hijack your

980
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,480
presentation,

981
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,520
but this council is the decision body to

982
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:43,879
recommend

983
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:44,879
to the audit [clears throat] committee

984
00:34:44,879 --> 00:34:46,720
how many members do you want? Should we

985
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:48,960
go to five, add another councilor? How

986
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,720
much budget should be allocated? Are

987
00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:52,720
there areas you want the audit committee

988
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:53,520
to focus on?

989
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:54,800
>> We could do audits all year if you

990
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,919
wanted to. And if you wanted to allocate

991
00:34:56,919 --> 00:34:58,560
the budget, we could do five or six,

992
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,920
right? I mean it's all a matter of

993
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,800
we don't have to just do one thing and

994
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,120
one thing only. It can be it could be an

995
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,320
on more of an ongoing function. Knowing

996
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:08,720
that the more

997
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:10,880
we direct, the the more budget we would

998
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:11,800
need to

999
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,200
find or allocate.

1000
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,880
>> I do think that Travis the councilor who

1001
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,840
made his last point actually makes a lot

1002
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,440
of sense though um

1003
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,280
if the committee came up with ideas,

1004
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,160
brought them to the council, the council

1005
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,760
approved them, and then the committee

1006
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:26,720
executed them.

1007
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:27,440
>> Yeah.

1008
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,720
That actually I think would resolve a

1009
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,480
lot of the issues that I talked about

1010
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,320
before as far as establishing legitimacy

1011
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,120
of the of the

1012
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,680
of what's happening. Yeah.

1013
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,240
I if nothing else is making sure we're

1014
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:43,000
on the same page.

1015
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,480
>> I I really agree with that. I think it

1016
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,880
makes a lot of sense to like

1017
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,480
um because it effectively gets its

1018
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,280
legitimacy from the council having kind

1019
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,120
of official council input into its

1020
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,760
efforts seems like good governance.

1021
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,510
Absolutely.

1022
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,280
Okay.

1023
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,560
Well, the only other things that I

1024
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,920
prepared to talk about were the general

1025
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,040
principles of the auditing that I've

1026
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,640
heard concerns from councilors in the

1027
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,840
past, independence, the prioritization

1028
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,320
of audits, risk assessments including

1029
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,800
input from the council. So

1030
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,160
we're because we're coming up on time, I

1031
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,680
don't see any need to necessarily push

1032
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,440
on that, but you can talk to me anytime

1033
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,680
unless you'd like me to continue.

1034
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,120
But other than that, I feel if if the

1035
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,320
committee is uh satisfied to consider

1036
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,720
this in a night meeting

1037
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,240
uh that's the proposal.

1038
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:29,920
>> need to add to this? Do we need to add

1039
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,800
the process of talking about it and

1040
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,840
voting on? I like that idea.

1041
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,720
I think that'd be a good amendment or

1042
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,120
update to these proposed Kind of codify

1043
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:39,920
that.

1044
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,080
I mean

1045
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:42,800
not that it couldn't happen before, but

1046
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,960
if it's in there, it's more likely to or

1047
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,320
to be consistent with it. Are you

1048
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,520
talking about I just want to make sure

1049
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,200
I'm clear about like having council

1050
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,600
input on the risk assessment? Uh council

1051
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,600
input on

1052
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,720
um the scope of the audit

1053
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,080
uh we'll call it audit charter um audit

1054
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,320
um

1055
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,280
uh yeah, sorry.

1056
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,800
>> Sort of like it's audit priorities for a

1057
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:05,680
given

1058
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:06,960
time period. The audit plan, thank you.

1059
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,240
I was looking for the right word.

1060
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:10,680
>> The audit plan for the year. Okay.

1061
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:11,920
I can make those amendments and make

1062
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,800
sure they're in there for the night

1063
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,040
meeting. And Craig has a comment. Go

1064
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,840
ahead, Craig. I was just going to say I

1065
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,720
would also not like the idea of us

1066
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:21,680
having further discussion discussion

1067
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,160
about it. Uh anything we can do to

1068
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,680
create greater transparency,

1069
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,920
uh greater efficiency

1070
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,600
um I think is is uh time and money well

1071
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,640
spent. So I'm I'm very supportive of

1072
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,000
continuing this discussion.

1073
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,720
Terrific.

1074
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:41,680
And I just want to say thanks to the

1075
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,240
council and the administration for

1076
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:45,720
making the audit

1077
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:47,800
both internal audit function a priority.

1078
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,880
I mean we're one of the few cities who's

1079
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,359
doing it and I think that's great. I

1080
00:37:51,359 --> 00:37:53,040
really think that's

1081
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,200
commendable. So

1082
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,440
I have a quick question.

1083
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,240
So in having the audit committee check

1084
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,600
in with the rest of the council and

1085
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,040
doing the plan, is that something that

1086
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,320
we would want to just do by email or

1087
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,120
that we would want to do in a work

1088
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,640
meeting?

1089
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:12,800
Um

1090
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,520
because I could imagine that the items

1091
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,400
that we may want to investigate could

1092
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,560
potentially be sensitive. Some of them

1093
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,520
would be. Yeah, I think it probably

1094
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,000
depends on the subject. So could be a closed

1095
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,440
session too then. Could be. I mean

1096
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,120
there's very limited number of things

1097
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,520
that we can talk about in a closed

1098
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,520
session. A lot of things that might be

1099
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:34,880
the subject of an audit probably

1100
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,680
wouldn't qualify. So I think it's

1101
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,320
ultimately going to depend on the topic.

1102
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,680
I think that's probably something for

1103
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,400
the audit committee

1104
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,359
as they come forward with

1105
00:38:43,359 --> 00:38:45,040
recommendations as to the focus of this.

1106
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,640
We'll talk amongst themselves of like

1107
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,040
how are we going to present these

1108
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,560
recommendations to the rest of the

1109
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,320
council. Right. And maybe take that to

1110
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,440
council leadership for the decision as

1111
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,040
whether or not it needs to be a big

1112
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,760
meeting type of thing.

1113
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,670
Okay.

1114
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,040
We need a meeting motion on this for

1115
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,080
night meeting consideration. Or are we

1116
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,160
good to go?

1117
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,240
It's not code. Okay.

1118
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,560
I mean I don't know, but

1119
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:12,400
Well,

1120
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,920
previously

1121
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,480
the council had adopted the two charters

1122
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,000
by resolution, so we can bring those

1123
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,550
back by resolution for an update.

1124
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:24,800
All right, any questions for Tanner

1125
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,600
before he goes?

1126
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,280
All right, thank you, Tanner.

1127
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,590
You.

1128
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080
And the application process is open for

1129
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,840
councilors to join the audit committee.

1130
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,110
Wait, it's not open.

1131
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,430
Bye.

1132
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,040
I I would say that I'm not committed to

1133
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,120
this sometimes.

1134
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,360
I think that must be Yeah, I think that

1135
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,040
comes Yeah. I think it's really for a

1136
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,720
break. Yeah, I think All right, next up

1137
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,120
is a presentation regarding conservation

1138
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,870
plan.

1139
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,480
All right, that's Wendy Fisher,

1140
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,280
Executive Director, Media Executive

1141
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:12,790
Director, and Utah Open Lands.

1142
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,840
Welcome back, Wendy.

1143
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,840
Thank you. Who said that? Mayor Wilson.

1144
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,520
Oh, it's like, "Wow.

1145
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,440
I'm so glad I'm here. Um do we have

1146
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,350
Okay.

1147
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,640
Had an episode.

1148
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,200
Oh, all right.

1149
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,280
>> Good. This your Is this your slide?

1150
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,200
These are the slides, yes.

1151
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,240
Look at that. The computer decided to

1152
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:41,880
Uh so, uh some of you counselors, um

1153
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,240
witnessed a very similar presentation uh

1154
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,560
almost a year ago. Um I'm Wendy Fisher.

1155
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,040
I am and the Executive Director of Utah

1156
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,000
Open Lands. I've actually been with the

1157
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,278
organization for 37 years

1158
00:40:56,278 --> 00:40:56,600
>> [sighs]

1159
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,080
>> uh now.

1160
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,080
Um

1161
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,520
what Utah Open Lands does as an

1162
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,800
organization is we hold conservation

1163
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,200
easements

1164
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,040
primarily with the purpose of protecting

1165
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,640
agricultural, recreational,

1166
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,480
wildlife, scenic, and open space

1167
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,200
resources throughout the state. And um

1168
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,920
we work with a range of landowners, a

1169
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,600
lot of private landowners um that we

1170
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,480
work with, but then we also work with

1171
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,760
various different government entities.

1172
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,000
Um so, I've given a very short list here

1173
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:31,280
of some of the different governmental

1174
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,160
partners that we've worked with in the

1175
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,160
protection of open space, everything

1176
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,360
from Wasatch Mountain State Park, um

1177
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,120
where we protected about 1,000 acres, uh

1178
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,120
the Gene and We Dean Weeden Farm Park is

1179
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,320
actually now with Salt Lake County,

1180
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,600
um all the way to Bridal Veil Falls,

1181
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,680
which of course many of you may remember

1182
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,480
that we worked with Utah County and

1183
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,920
right here in Provo City, we worked on

1184
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,880
Bonnell's Fork.

1185
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,990
Now, can I do this? Yes.

1186
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,800
I'm assuming the Well, one of the

1187
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,440
buttons are going to work. Um so, again,

1188
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,640
here's just a list. I'll try to speed my

1189
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,040
presentation up so that you can get on

1190
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,920
track with where you're at in terms of

1191
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,560
the agenda. Um but we have worked with a

1192
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,960
number of different agencies that range

1193
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,280
from city to county to state uh

1194
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,640
government agencies including groups

1195
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,840
like the Division of Forestry, Fire, and

1196
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,280
State Lands. And one of the first

1197
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:28,960
conservation easements that was ever

1198
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,440
placed on

1199
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:31,080
uh a

1200
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,920
state-owned piece of property was the

1201
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,680
Snake Creek Conservation Easement. And

1202
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,360
here you can see

1203
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,000
uh the Governor of the State of Utah

1204
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,040
signing that back in 1995.

1205
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,240
Um just to give you a little bit of

1206
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,800
background in Utah Open Lands, um we

1207
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,720
were established in 1990. We were the

1208
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:48,480
first local land trust in the State of

1209
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,280
Utah. Um we are a 501c3 public charity

1210
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,920
with special designation under 170H,

1211
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,480
which usually is not a huge issue with

1212
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,560
respect to working with government

1213
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,960
entities, um but 170H really clarifies

1214
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,400
what a conservation purpose is for

1215
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,240
public benefit. And I think that's

1216
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,800
important to understand is that is part

1217
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,040
of what the public benefit is all about

1218
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,040
when you do a conservation easement.

1219
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,200
From

1220
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,600
my perspective, um I feel like I'm in my

1221
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,400
home territory because I grew up in Utah

1222
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,160
County. I used to ride my horse

1223
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,240
Actually, it was a different one. Um but

1224
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:25,520
I used to ride my horse through the

1225
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,520
orchards with permission um and all the

1226
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,520
way up into the foothills. And one of

1227
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,200
the reasons that I became dedicated to

1228
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,840
doing open space preservation in the

1229
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,120
state is because I do believe that our

1230
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,640
long-term term economic vitality is tied

1231
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,040
to our quality of life. And a huge part

1232
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,160
of that quality of life are our open

1233
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,840
spaces. If there was any better uh

1234
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,560
statistic for it, just look at 2020,

1235
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,040
um when we were dealing with pandemic,

1236
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,560
we saw a 300% increase in the amount of

1237
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,520
people utilizing our open spaces, but

1238
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,840
increasingly what we see is even when

1239
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,680
you look at things like the outdoor

1240
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,240
recreation grants that are available

1241
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:05,520
throughout the state, there is

1242
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,920
increasing funding put into the state uh

1243
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,120
trails and recreation and those sorts of

1244
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,840
open space funding uh by the legislature

1245
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,680
because they recognize that the people

1246
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,320
that come to our State of Utah are

1247
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:20,520
really attracted, whether they're

1248
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,560
business visitors,

1249
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,800
people who want to live here because of

1250
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,800
our great outdoors. And so, it does make

1251
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,280
sense from a long-term economic uh

1252
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:30,760
perspective to do that. And

1253
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,080
additionally, from a personal

1254
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,920
perspective, when I look at the places

1255
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,320
that I used to go when I was a young

1256
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,680
kid, um we're losing some of those. And

1257
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,400
I think that they're really vital but

1258
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,359
really as as our entire civilization

1259
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:46,080
grows here in the State of Utah. So,

1260
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,160
what is a conservation easement? This is

1261
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,359
definition that comes out of um

1262
00:44:50,359 --> 00:44:52,120
different places through the Utah Code.

1263
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,280
I chose the best one, I thought. But it

1264
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,080
ba- basically is an encumbrance on the

1265
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,359
landscape. Um I think that there have

1266
00:44:58,359 --> 00:45:00,520
been questions in the past, and I

1267
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,280
certainly want to continue to answer

1268
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:03,960
those questions, but I think one of the

1269
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,920
things that's important to understand is

1270
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,880
you are not giving Utah Open Lands the

1271
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,320
land.

1272
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:10,840
We are not going to become owners of the

1273
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,359
land that Provo City owns when we talk

1274
00:45:13,359 --> 00:45:14,960
about Slate Canyon or we talk about

1275
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,880
something like Bonnell's Fork.

1276
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,600
You're essentially giving us an

1277
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,120
obligation.

1278
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,720
You are giving us an obligation to

1279
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:23,040
ensure the protection of these

1280
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,840
landscapes in perpetuity. And that for

1281
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,160
that, we have to defend these

1282
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,440
landscapes. Um

1283
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,040
It was interesting

1284
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:33,560
not to throw you back to your previous

1285
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,400
conversation, but to listen to that

1286
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,440
element of independence. And I think

1287
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,000
what Utah Open Lands provides in

1288
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,920
conservation easement from really a

1289
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,400
government perspective is a little bit

1290
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,520
of a check and balance. Really, you will

1291
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,640
remain continue to hold the ultimate

1292
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,640
power in what you want to see done with

1293
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,040
these landscapes, but in making this

1294
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,000
decision, bless you, what you're really

1295
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,640
looking at from a City Council

1296
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,280
perspective is saying, "This is

1297
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,600
something that you've seen that your

1298
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,680
constituents are interested in, that you

1299
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,560
see this is a long-term economic

1300
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,840
vitality, and maybe you want to have a

1301
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,760
little bit of a check to make sure that stays protected."

1302
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,960
If down the road there's a real

1303
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,120
legitimate reason as to why you wouldn't

1304
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,320
want to have it continue to be

1305
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,400
protected, there are provisions within a

1306
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,240
conservation easement that it can allow

1307
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:17,120
you to do that, especially you as a

1308
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,960
government entity. We can talk about

1309
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,160
that in a minute if you'd like. Um the

1310
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,600
other reasons that I think that it makes

1311
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,840
sense to do conservation easements with

1312
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,000
uh organization like Utah Open Lands is

1313
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,080
we can partner in management strategies.

1314
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,320
Um just this last Saturday, uh we were

1315
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,760
involved in some wildfire mitigation.

1316
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,240
We've done extensive research on forest

1317
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,800
health. Um we've done some extensives uh

1318
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,960
research on certain water quality

1319
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,120
issues. And right now, actually, we own

1320
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,000
a landscape where we are doing some

1321
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,680
regenerative agricultural practices uh

1322
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,200
working with various different farm

1323
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,320
farmers and ranchers that we think

1324
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,000
actually will apply to even broader land

1325
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,120
management um priorities, so you get

1326
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,800
that for free. Um I think some of the

1327
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,560
other things is as I've mentioned

1328
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,880
before, it guards against rash decision

1329
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,800
and it guards against private benefits

1330
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,960
by ensuring the public benefit that

1331
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,160
accrues from a conservation easement.

1332
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,640
And I think it really does codify what

1333
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,960
it is that the community is looking at.

1334
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,920
Um what you'll see in a conservation

1335
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,560
easement, um because hoping hoping that

1336
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,080
we get to that place, um what a

1337
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:24,440
conservation easement, you'll see

1338
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,800
basically, bless you, the intentions

1339
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,880
that are codified in these recitals.

1340
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,440
Then you'll also see the what the rights

1341
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,720
you are giving to Utah Open Lands. And

1342
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:34,240
all of these things that I've put up

1343
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,280
here, but I think probably one of the

1344
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,640
focus points is one, we have a baseline

1345
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,600
documentation that identifies what the

1346
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,560
existing condition of the property is.

1347
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,280
So, this isn't that we're requiring you

1348
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,560
to enhance it or restore it or any of

1349
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,760
those sorts of things. The next part of

1350
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,000
it in terms of the permitted and the

1351
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,800
prohibited uses, this is really

1352
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,600
something that you all as council, along

1353
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480
with your staff, end up identifying and

1354
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,120
really visioning for the property. I

1355
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,600
like to tell people that a lot of times

1356
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:02,880
people think that a conservation

1357
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,880
easement locks in the fate of the land,

1358
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,880
and yet development locks in the fate of

1359
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,880
the land far greater than conservation

1360
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,600
easement would. And if you talk to any

1361
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,880
farmer who's ever tried to farm or

1362
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,160
reclaim a property that had been

1363
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,400
concreted, you'll know that that soil

1364
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,600
depth is no longer there, for example.

1365
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,520
And so, what when you look at when we go

1366
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,320
forward and we develop things, there's a

1367
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,480
lot of visioning that goes through that.

1368
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,240
Conservation Easement, these permitted

1369
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:30,200
and prohibited uses, the same sort of

1370
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,240
idea in terms of coming up with some

1371
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,160
visioning. We can also work on a

1372
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,600
management plan provision. I think when

1373
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,000
Bonnell we did Bonnell's Fork, we did

1374
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,960
not look at a management plan provision,

1375
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,600
in part because your um Parks and Recs

1376
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,240
and your uh Public Works folks already

1377
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,040
have some really great visioning and

1378
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,359
plans that are already in place, and the

1379
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:51,280
conservation easement really is intended

1380
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,520
to mimic that.

1381
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,280
Um this is just an example of what you

1382
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,400
might see in terms of some language with

1383
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,920
respect to, for example, the baseline

1384
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,480
documentation.

1385
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,520
Um and then this section here, it talks

1386
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,560
about a uh master plan. This actually

1387
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,480
came directly out of a conservation

1388
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,480
easement that we did for um Bonanza

1389
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,960
Flats. So, if any of you have been up to

1390
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,000
uh the Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon,

1391
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:17,480
you've gone up to the top there, and

1392
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:18,880
you've ever hiked to Bloods Lake, that's

1393
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,960
Bonanza Flat. We worked with Park City

1394
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,840
to ensure that 1,500 acres is under a

1395
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,480
conservation easement. There it is. Um

1396
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,560
In that particular instance, we did work

1397
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,520
on a management plan, and we divided the

1398
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,320
property into sort of a a a headwaters

1399
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,720
area, a backcountry area, and a front

1400
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:39,560
country area. I think one of the things

1401
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:40,840
that's interesting that shows sort of

1402
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,400
the value of having an organization like

1403
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,440
Utah Open Lands involved in the

1404
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,040
protection of a piece of property like

1405
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,480
this is we actually garnered about

1406
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,120
$500,000

1407
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,520
in funding to allow for trailhead

1408
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,880
development, trail development. Um there

1409
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,560
was an old yurt platform that has now

1410
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,960
been totally taken out and reclaimed as

1411
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,440
what we're calling the Aspen Gathering

1412
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,440
Place. Um we're also working on some

1413
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,320
interpretive sites that open up some

1414
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,840
accessibility to this area. Um and

1415
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,200
really that's one of the successes that

1416
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,040
we've seen in the partnership that we've

1417
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,360
had on that particular property.

1418
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,440
Our role really as an organization is to

1419
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,320
act as a steward. We provide you with

1420
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,600
annual, at least, sometimes more than

1421
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,800
annual reports on the status of the

1422
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,880
property. Um we are there as a continual

1423
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,560
partner in things you might want to

1424
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,200
accomplish on the property. As I

1425
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:35,640
mentioned with Park City, we've written

1426
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,880
numerous grants. We also wrote a grant

1427
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,600
for the county when we were working on

1428
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,080
Bridal Veil Falls. But fundamentally,

1429
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,480
our role is to ensure the terms of the

1430
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,280
conservation easement are adhered to and

1431
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,280
that the property itself is continues to

1432
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,320
um remain as the intentions that are set

1433
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,680
forth in the conservation easement.

1434
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,080
Pretty sure that's my last slide.

1435
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,120
So then that beautiful picture of

1436
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:12,950
Bonnell's Fork. Yes.

1437
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,680
Yeah, I know. I feel I feel a little bad

1438
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:26,150
for you, but

1439
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,320
So did you say I thought I caught

1440
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,440
if they needed to, they could get out of

1441
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,600
this? Is that what you said? There are

1442
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,080
provisions within the conservation

1443
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:36,560
easement. For example, you could condemn

1444
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:37,880
it.

1445
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,160
You're a city, you have condemnation

1446
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,240
powers. We could condemn our own

1447
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:42,400
property? You could condemn the

1448
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,990
conservation easement.

1449
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:48,480
That's a

1450
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,720
>> Well, I mean that's up to you and the

1451
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,280
Yeah. So

1452
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,480
the the easement itself is a property

1453
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,760
right. You could condemn that property

1454
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:56,920
right. It's

1455
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,520
it essentially results in what's called

1456
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,680
merger where the all the right cuz right

1457
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,680
now with with a conservation easement,

1458
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,600
the rights are being held by the

1459
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:05,800
underlying property owner and the

1460
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,200
easement owner.

1461
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,440
And through condemnation, you would

1462
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,750
merge those rights back into each other.

1463
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,320
Did we gather all of your open little

1464
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:15,960
sticks?

1465
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Right.

1466
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,400
We just bend all the sticks. Okay, so

1467
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,960
then tell me

1468
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,240
if we hold the power to

1469
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,760
bond us in an easement and we also hold

1470
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,470
the power to get us out of an easement

1471
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,840
why go with the easement in the first

1472
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,080
place?

1473
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:39,840
Again, I I find it interesting that you

1474
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,560
had that conversation from an auditing

1475
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,120
perspective, right? I think that

1476
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:44,960
fundamentally, it's not going to be an

1477
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,560
easy process. It's not like you get a

1478
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,920
wave your hand and say, "Okay, we agreed

1479
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,280
to get into this. Now we're going to

1480
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,920
agree to get out of it." There is a

1481
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,880
process and that process gets outlined

1482
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,760
in the conservation easement. So it

1483
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,240
really becomes one of those check and

1484
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:59,240
balances. I think it becomes a part of

1485
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:01,880
the transparency um in terms of a piece

1486
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,800
of property. The reason we got involved

1487
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,320
with Bridal Veil Falls is it was headed

1488
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,680
for development and nobody actually knew

1489
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,080
that there was a developer that was

1490
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,200
bidding on the development of it. We've

1491
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:12,920
seen that similarly with the Galena Sun

1492
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,760
Coney property down along the Jordan

1493
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,000
River. Largest piece of open space in

1494
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,560
the Jordan River. I actually worked with

1495
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,480
the legislator who put the legislation

1496
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,920
in place to see that 250 acres

1497
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,520
protected.

1498
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,680
Several news news articles about 10

1499
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,160
years later

1500
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,480
and a developer had gotten onto a public

1501
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,080
authority that had some authority over

1502
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,120
that area and wanted to see that land

1503
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,240
exchanged and taken out, which had a

1504
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:41,680
4,000

1505
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,600
4,000-year-old archaeological site on it

1506
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,160
and developed.

1507
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:47,840
So it becomes basically a check and

1508
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,000
balance um on some of those similar

1509
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,680
things. I think in terms of the question

1510
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,920
conversation you were having even in

1511
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,280
terms of why have an independent

1512
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,640
auditor. It basically provides one, the

1513
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,280
vision for what you want to see move

1514
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,000
forward with this piece of property. Not

1515
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,800
all property is going to be the same.

1516
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,320
And I think actually last time I was

1517
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,320
here, we we had a you know, we had a

1518
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,000
good conversation. I think you had some

1519
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,440
really good points about not all of

1520
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,000
these properties are properties that

1521
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,640
would be appropriate for a conservation

1522
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,080
easement. And I think the one that's

1523
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,920
being brought forward, Slate Canyon, is

1524
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,920
one that has again watershed resources,

1525
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,600
recreational resources that really fit

1526
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,400
hand in glove with the concept of a

1527
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,120
conservation easement. And so

1528
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,120
essentially, what you're doing is you're

1529
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,400
just really codifying and identifying

1530
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,280
what the intention of the city is for

1531
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,480
its constituents and for this landscape

1532
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,680
with respect to honoring the protection

1533
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,160
of those recreational values. That's

1534
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,640
what I see from

1535
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:45,920
having

1536
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,520
been doing this for 37 years as as why I

1537
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,400
mean there's not

1538
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,080
cuz sometimes I ask my question, why do

1539
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,800
I go to work every day to do all of

1540
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:55,960
this? Um because it isn't like you're

1541
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,200
giving an asset to Utah Open Lands, but

1542
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,800
I have I've seen the other side of it

1543
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,920
and I think that we should have at least

1544
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,840
a little bow around certain sticks that

1545
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,480
you really have to intentionally untie

1546
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,720
if you're going to bring those sticks

1547
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:12,720
back in and you're going to potentially

1548
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:14,200
destroy the protection of a piece

1549
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,480
>> Have you ever I mean you guys have been

1550
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,480
in you said 37 years? Yes. Have you guys

1551
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,440
ever had one undone?

1552
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:21,359
Nope.

1553
00:55:21,359 --> 00:55:22,200
Okay.

1554
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,710
Thanks. We have not.

1555
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,040
Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you to

1556
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,760
everybody who had this vision and has

1557
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,520
worked so hard. I know that there's been

1558
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,000
a lot of time and effort put into it. I

1559
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,440
think it's really important to protect

1560
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,040
our spaces. You said it great, so I

1561
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,160
didn't want to take a ton of time, but I

1562
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:40,840
just want to say I'm really

1563
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:41,440
um

1564
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,600
happy and excited to be able to support

1565
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,870
this effort.

1566
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:48,560
Wendy, what's that a picture of?

1567
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,600
Bonnell's Fork. Bonnell's Fork. There's

1568
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,240
a

1569
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,120
Oh my gosh. It was throwing me. Like I

1570
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,080
thought it was Bonnell's Fork, but I saw

1571
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:58,600
the electrical lines and I saw the

1572
00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:59,960
little trailers below it. I thought it

1573
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:01,520
had a gondola.

1574
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:02,808
>> I thought it had a gondola. I'm like

1575
00:56:02,808 --> 00:56:05,430
>> [laughter]

1576
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,080
» You were scaring me. I was like, "Wait a

1577
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,320
minute." Yeah, I was like,

1578
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,400
"What where is this?"

1579
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,240
I swore it was Bonnell's Fork. Okay.

1580
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:14,280
Thank you.

1581
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:15,280
All right. Well, thanks for the

1582
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:15,960
>> yep.

1583
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,680
That's up in Bridal Veil.

1584
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,440
Yeah.

1585
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,400
Chairman okay? Yes. Just a couple

1586
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,280
other thoughts with Council Bogden's

1587
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,200
question before. Um I agree entirely

1588
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,680
with Wendy that um condemning something

1589
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,080
is harder than just putting it on the

1590
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,960
surplus property list and selling it. So

1591
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:36,720
it it would take longer. It would be a

1592
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:38,680
more public process.

1593
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,240
The other two reasons why it's harder is

1594
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:42,880
because you can only condemn for certain

1595
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,240
purposes. Oh. So under state law, you

1596
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:49,840
can't just condemn for any purpose that you can think of.

1597
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,760
And two, if you do condemn you have to

1598
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,040
pay the property right holder the fair

1599
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,600
market value of the property right that

1600
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,600
you're taking away from them. So there

1601
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,200
would be both a cost and limitations on

1602
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:01,880
what the state would allow you to do it

1603
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,960
for. Now wait.

1604
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,640
So yes. You would property Property

1605
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,280
rights have values even not just

1606
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:10,800
property has value. Property rights have

1607
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,760
value. So easements have monetary value.

1608
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,080
And so you can't So where you're going

1609
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:17,560
with this I think by the look on your

1610
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,240
face is you could end up giving away a

1611
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,120
property right for free and having to

1612
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,520
pay to get it back

1613
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,840
if you decided to condemn it. Just just

1614
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,160
give me a ballpark figure on what an

1615
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,359
easement 10%

1616
00:57:32,359 --> 00:57:33,000
>> value.

1617
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,040
And I think gen-

1618
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,040
generally speaking, like if like if I

1619
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,200
had if if I had a big uh if I had a

1620
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,840
residential lot in Provo and my neighbor

1621
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,880
needed access to drive his car across it

1622
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,640
generally speaking, charging him 10% of

1623
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,720
the of the value of the property to give

1624
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,280
the easement across my property would be

1625
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,560
kind of a standard

1626
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,440
sit- situation.

1627
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,080
And in that case, Brian, that doesn't make

1628
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,000
any sense because we would be buying it

1629
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,880
back from ourselves. Well, but you're

1630
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,240
not because you don't hold the easement.

1631
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:05,960
You're giving the easement to Utah Open

1632
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,080
Lands. So if you condemn it from them,

1633
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:09,840
you have to pay them for the right that

1634
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:14,440
you're taking away from them. So that's the disincentive to take it out

1635
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,120
of an easement. Yes.

1636
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,320
And and I will just jump in having

1637
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,640
worked with your staff and and you know,

1638
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:22,680
um Tara and I have had this

1639
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,520
conversation.

1640
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,560
You you you can't The way that we have

1641
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,280
worked with Provo City to draft these,

1642
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,359
it is not a huge amount as they're

1643
00:58:34,359 --> 00:58:37,920
saying it's that 10%. Obviously, when

1644
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,480
we've worked with private land owners

1645
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,560
depending on how that is set up there is

1646
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,280
potentially like if they're taking a tax

1647
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:46,800
deduction and therefore they're

1648
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,320
receiving a value for it, the percentage

1649
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,680
of what that property right holds to the

1650
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,000
overall value can be quite a bit

1651
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,760
greater. But I think that you know, um

1652
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,040
I know Tara was involved in that very

1653
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,440
much in terms of making sure that the way that it was written it's

1654
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:06,600
enough of a safeguard, but it's not that

1655
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,080
you are giving it's it's it's a pretty

1656
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:10,600
I'm not going to say a nominal amount,

1657
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,320
but it's it's a it's a pretty small

1658
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,960
amount quite frankly in comparison to

1659
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,680
even what we've done with Park City.

1660
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,040
Typically, the percentage of the

1661
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,880
property right that they end up

1662
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,440
giving to Utah Open Lands through the

1663
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,200
conservation easement is quite a bit

1664
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,080
larger and there are many different ways

1665
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:26,920
reasons for that everything from open

1666
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,280
space bonds and things like that, which

1667
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:29,560
is not the case here, so I don't really

1668
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,640
want to go into it, but I saw your face,

1669
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,720
too, and I don't want to have it seem

1670
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,880
like you are giving us this huge value

1671
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:36,960
that then you're going to have to buy

1672
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,280
back. It's just enough that it creates

1673
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,080
that disincentive.

1674
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,080
So, Brian, we only have to buy it back

1675
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,160
if we

1676
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,240
don't condemn it for one of the reasons

1677
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:48,000
that the state allows us to condemn it

1678
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,920
for? No. No, I'm saying

1679
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:51,880
the

1680
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,680
um part of the condemnation is So, let's

1681
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:56,880
move out of conservation easements for a

1682
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,400
little bit just to be uh more simple.

1683
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,040
So, if you want to build a road and you

1684
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,120
condemn somebody's property, the private

1685
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:06,600
citizen's property in order to build the

1686
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,560
road, you must pay them the fair market

1687
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:10,920
value of the property you condemn. That

1688
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,320
same principle applies here.

1689
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,120
If you give away a property right, in

1690
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:16,400
this case an easement, whether it's a

1691
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:17,840
conservation easement or not, let's say

1692
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:19,720
it was Let's say it's not a conservation

1693
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:20,880
easement just for simplicity and it's

1694
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:22,120
like the one I just said a minute ago,

1695
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,080
it's just an easement to cross

1696
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,080
somebody's property. If you later want

1697
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,040
to build a

1698
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,240
uh

1699
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,200
electric substation on that property and

1700
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,000
you want to take the the easement that

1701
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,080
lets the person drive across it back

1702
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:40,320
from them,

1703
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,560
you can condemn it, but you have to pay

1704
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,600
them the fair market value of the right

1705
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,200
of the easement right. Okay, so we have

1706
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,280
built in our

1707
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:53,880
conservation easement that we have the

1708
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:55,880
right to build substations, we have the

1709
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,680
right to build

1710
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,960
parks, we have the right to build I can

1711
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:02,240
Yeah, I mean this That's the next item.

1712
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:03,720
This one This one we haven't necessarily

1713
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,560
done yet, but yes, generally speaking,

1714
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,040
we're going to preserve most And And

1715
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,560
this is where in some ways it's again

1716
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,800
it's it's kind of a hypothetical

1717
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,080
non-starter, right? Because the intent

1718
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,640
would be to build almost all public

1719
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,160
purposes into the conservation easement

1720
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,240
so we could do them anyway and

1721
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,320
non-public purposes are the kinds of

1722
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,000
things that the state wouldn't allow us

1723
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,520
to condemn for anyway. So, the idea that

1724
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,480
we

1725
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,000
>> we could sell it to somebody to build a

1726
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,000
subdivision on. Correct. That's not

1727
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,040
something that you can condemn for under

1728
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,200
Utah law.

1729
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,000
Mhm.

1730
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:47,910
I think you

1731
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,920
All right. Thanks, Wendy. Okay, perfect.

1732
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,040
Glad there's not a gondola over there.

1733
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:54,520
Yeah.

1734
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,480
Next we'll hear from Malia on a

1735
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:57,880
presentation regarding specifically a

1736
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:03,190
Slate Canyon conservation easement.

1737
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,520
Perfect.

1738
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:08,200
Thank you, Wendy, for the intro to

1739
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,223
conservation easements.

1740
01:02:12,233 --> 01:02:12,360
» [laughter]

1741
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,200
>> This is specifically

1742
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,440
for Slate Canyon conservation easement.

1743
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,040
And I'm just going to jump ahead really

1744
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,200
quick

1745
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,720
so we can orient to where we are talking

1746
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,520
about. So, green green shaded parcels

1747
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,560
are city owned parcels.

1748
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,800
And then you turn right.

1749
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:30,560
Oh.

1750
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,120
So,

1751
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,160
here's the state hospital

1752
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,400
and then Slate Canyon

1753
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,000
and then this is Slate Canyon Drive

1754
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,760
the state

1755
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,360
or State Street, or something like

1756
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:46,520
So,

1757
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,080
these are all city owned parcels up

1758
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,400
here. It totals

1759
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,320
115

1760
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,040
Well, 115 acres have been recommended

1761
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,280
by the committee for the easement. The

1762
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,280
city also owns this parcel here, this is

1763
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,560
47 acres

1764
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,880
and the working group that has been

1765
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,520
working on this is not recommending

1766
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,800
that. Which I'll talk to in a second.

1767
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,760
Anyway, these are This is where we're

1768
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,600
talking about. I also have this picture.

1769
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,120
This is currently designated as Slate

1770
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,040
Canyon Park, so

1771
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:20,960
all of those parcels

1772
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,560
minus south of State Canyon Drive here

1773
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,480
and then the one parcel that's

1774
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,280
So, there's nothing recommended south of

1775
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,080
Slate Canyon Drive.

1776
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,520
for the easement.

1777
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,120
Currently it is included and we can I'll

1778
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:36,760
talk about that in a second.

1779
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,280
This is included just because it's all

1780
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,080
one parcel.

1781
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:41,640
But we can change that if you would

1782
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,600
like. Okay.

1783
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,000
Going back, so this is going to be

1784
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,200
really I'll go quick and then if

1785
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,040
Councilors Christiansen and Whitlock

1786
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,040
would like to jump in, this originally

1787
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,600
came as an issue sponsor request from

1788
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:57,600
Councilors Whitlock and Christiansen to

1789
01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:59,680
just discuss potential conservation

1790
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:01,560
easement on Slate Canyon.

1791
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,680
So, we met along with

1792
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,480
a lot of staff from the administration,

1793
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,920
from almost every city department

1794
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:10,880
um and the mayor's office to kind of

1795
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:12,520
discuss

1796
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,040
our initial concerns, what we're excited

1797
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,040
about, what we're not, if there's

1798
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,080
um things to take into consideration,

1799
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:21,960
what went well during the Bonnell Sport

1800
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,880
conservation easement, what we want to

1801
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,560
change, who do we want to partner with.

1802
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,800
So, after all of that, we came to

1803
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:31,880
the idea of a Slate Canyon conservation

1804
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,320
easement to place the city on parcels we

1805
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,120
just discussed

1806
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,520
into an easement with the city as the

1807
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:41,400
landowner and then Utah Open Lands as

1808
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,280
the easement holder.

1809
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,720
This is through the same section of code

1810
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,120
that we used for Bonnell's, which allows

1811
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:50,920
the city to provide non-monetary

1812
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,200
assistance to nonprofits

1813
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,040
without receiving

1814
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,240
fair market value compensation for that.

1815
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,320
We just have to do a public benefit

1816
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:01,400
study

1817
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,600
um which we did for Bonnell's.

1818
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:07,240
So, that would just allow us to then

1819
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,200
um put the prop those property rights

1820
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,359
into an easement. We have talked to

1821
01:05:11,359 --> 01:05:13,520
Conserve Utah Valley, a local nonprofit

1822
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,440
who has offered to cover the initial

1823
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,720
stewardship costs of placing this into

1824
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:20,359
an easement, which is around $10,000.

1825
01:05:20,359 --> 01:05:22,400
So, that would be another partnership in

1826
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:24,800
this. They've offered to fundraise and

1827
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,920
pay those initial costs.

1828
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,600
And then the why behind this, it

1829
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,280
supports a lot of goals in our master

1830
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,200
plans and then it's also support from

1831
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,320
Councilors Whitlock and Christiansen.

1832
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:42,000
This is a simple process. So, first,

1833
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,120
after if we there's a motion of the

1834
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:45,600
majority of the council here in this

1835
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,720
meeting to go forward with this process,

1836
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,440
then this is what that would look like.

1837
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,480
So, you'd have an MOU between Provo City

1838
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,480
and Utah Open Lands that would just say

1839
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,680
the city is not going to offer monetary

1840
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,720
funds for this now or ongoing,

1841
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:02,000
but that we want to enter into a

1842
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,800
conservation easement with you and we've

1843
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:06,760
already spoken with legal and they would

1844
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,000
work through that for us.

1845
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,000
And then we'd work on drafting the

1846
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,920
easement. So, this would involve

1847
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,880
administration, legal, public works,

1848
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:17,960
parks and rec, development services,

1849
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,240
fire, and Utah Open Lands just to make

1850
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,640
sure every consideration

1851
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,600
is taken when drafting that easement. I

1852
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,720
can speak to when we were drafting the

1853
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,359
Bonnell Sport easement, um we went

1854
01:06:29,359 --> 01:06:30,920
through the parks and rec master plan,

1855
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,480
the public works master plan, public

1856
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,920
works really was great about visioning

1857
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:37,720
what they might need as far as watershed

1858
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:39,800
needs and different infrastructure.

1859
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:41,640
Parks talked about, well, what if we

1860
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,760
went fully, we wanted a huge park, we

1861
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:46,160
went all the way, like what that would

1862
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,440
look like, made sure that was in there.

1863
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,120
Made sure that the city had everything

1864
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:52,440
it needed to

1865
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,760
manage that land according to our master

1866
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,200
plans. So, the same thing here, when we

1867
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,200
were talking in our working group, um

1868
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:01,640
multiple representatives from

1869
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,320
development services, public works, and

1870
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,440
parks were all there

1871
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,160
making sure that water infrastructure,

1872
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,280
street infrastructure, easements with

1873
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,600
There are a lot of

1874
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,960
in this map, there are a lot of other

1875
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,040
public utilities from other

1876
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:19,320
some

1877
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,160
private companies, Rocky Mountain Power,

1878
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,240
Enbridge, the state, others who already

1879
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,160
have easements on the land. Already

1880
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,080
working on a coordination plan with them

1881
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,160
to make sure that that is all

1882
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:31,760
taken into account when drafting the

1883
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:33,080
easement.

1884
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,359
Making sure it's also in line with parks

1885
01:07:35,359 --> 01:07:38,080
and rec master plan for Slate Canyon

1886
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,200
park and the visions that they have

1887
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:41,359
there.

1888
01:07:41,359 --> 01:07:43,640
So, that is all being taken into

1889
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,359
account.

1890
01:07:45,359 --> 01:07:47,320
Um along with drafting the easement,

1891
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,359
we'd also be drafting a public interest

1892
01:07:49,359 --> 01:07:51,200
valuation study. The council staff would

1893
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,680
take that on and have that reviewed by

1894
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,280
administrative staff to make sure we're

1895
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:56,440
not

1896
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:58,480
missing anything there.

1897
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,280
And then finally, it would come to a

1898
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,560
resolution to the city council to

1899
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,120
authorizing the city to place the

1900
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,480
property into an easement including a

1901
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,520
notice public hearing, which is what we

1902
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,280
did with Bonnell's.

1903
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,560
Okay. We do have a suggestion request.

1904
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,880
Okay.

1905
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,200
I

1906
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,560
This This is slated to be a park one

1907
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,600
day. One day. Yes.

1908
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,160
>> Right. One day. And we did take out

1909
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:27,920
the provision that they could sell off

1910
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,799
pieces of this in order to pay for the

1911
01:08:29,799 --> 01:08:33,200
park. Correct. So, I don't want people

1912
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:35,240
to come and say, "Okay, now that we put

1913
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:36,680
this in a conservation easement, we're

1914
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,080
getting a park tomorrow." I I don't want

1915
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:40,880
that to come across

1916
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,799
when we do this. I I want them to

1917
01:08:42,799 --> 01:08:44,880
realize that funding

1918
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,880
for parks is few and far between and it

1919
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,040
could be decades before they would even

1920
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,759
get a park on this land. And by putting

1921
01:08:53,759 --> 01:08:55,920
it in a conservation easement, that

1922
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,759
kills any idea in the future that any

1923
01:08:58,759 --> 01:09:01,319
portion of it could be sold off

1924
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:04,560
to be placed as money back towards the

1925
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,880
park. Because I think that also needs to

1926
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:12,040
be in their cognitive space. That today

1927
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,520
or yesterday we fought against someone

1928
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:16,799
that came in, gave a proposal to the

1929
01:09:16,799 --> 01:09:18,160
city council and then didn't even make

1930
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:19,200
it anywhere. I don't even think they

1931
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,319
filed anything with the city, right? It

1932
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:25,600
was just insane. But um

1933
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:27,400
And we did that because of the response,

1934
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,000
but I also wanted

1935
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,440
very clear given to them

1936
01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:32,759
that that doesn't mean that you're going

1937
01:09:32,759 --> 01:09:34,520
to get your park tomorrow

1938
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,960
and that this option will be taken out

1939
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,000
for future

1940
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,000
generations to even have that option to

1941
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,799
get money for a park.

1942
01:09:44,799 --> 01:09:46,040
Because there are some parts of this

1943
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:47,720
that are buildable, correct? Some of

1944
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,200
this is not in the There are slim

1945
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,080
portions. Most of it is above 30% grade,

1946
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,080
so it's not buildable.

1947
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:56,720
Even west of Slate Canyon there on the

1948
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,120
north part?

1949
01:09:58,120 --> 01:09:59,200
On this part?

1950
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,120
>> Yeah. I There's some parts up here that

1951
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:01,360
are

1952
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,560
>> West of the west of Slate Canyon? There.

1953
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,240
Yeah, there you go. That section there.

1954
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:09,280
This part, um, public works

1955
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:11,360
they had mentioned that this is like all

1956
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,160
infrastructure. That this would be a a

1957
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:15,520
basin, water

1958
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,040
it would all be for public works.

1959
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,280
>> Doesn't it kind of like gully? Right now

1960
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,480
there's a big hole with like satellites

1961
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:24,160
in it and Right. So, is their plan to

1962
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,600
just fill it up? I'm not exactly sure of

1963
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,840
their plan, but I can follow up and get

1964
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:30,680
back to you on that. But I know in our

1965
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,080
discussions they talked about

1966
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,320
the amount of public infrastructure

1967
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,960
work that needs to be done in this area

1968
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,600
is a lot in their master plan.

1969
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:47,070
Yeah, we had initially, um

1970
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:48,200
discussed and part of the initial

1971
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,360
proposal was having that small sliver of

1972
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:52,680
a property on the west uh west side of

1973
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,200
Slate Canyon Drive trying to like

1974
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,360
consider um splitting that parcel and

1975
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,920
not including it, but then public works

1976
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:00,200
came back with that feedback, so we

1977
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,160
didn't push forward with doing that. Um,

1978
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:03,720
there is you could argue like a little

1979
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,520
bit a little tiny bit in the

1980
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,560
kind of the the northwest corner of it

1981
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,960
that potentially if if I can see it on

1982
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:12,680
if like this area here Wait a minute.

1983
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,560
Like this area? Okay.

1984
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,720
Yeah, where you potentially could

1985
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,840
sell and build that land, but it's very small. Um It's kind of How would

1986
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:21,440
you get to it though?

1987
01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:22,680
>> And if there's a nice bike course on it

1988
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:23,560
now.

1989
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:24,680
Oh, is there?

1990
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:26,000
Yeah, there is. I use that I love riding

1991
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:27,720
on with my kids, but

1992
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:29,960
so.

1993
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,000
When when you say that that sliver is

1994
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,280
infrastructure, like explain a little

1995
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:36,760
more what they want to do with that or

1996
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,040
what they will be doing with that in the

1997
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:38,720
future?

1998
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:40,600
>> all a lot of this is the large basin.

1999
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:42,360
Yeah, I mean I I I know there's

2000
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,160
satellite dishes in there and They're

2001
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:45,920
going to do a water They want to do a

2002
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,440
water retention basin. Yeah, okay. So,

2003
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:50,000
like with Buckley Draw, they're building

2004
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,520
a huge basin down by Centennial Park for

2005
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,800
their Slate Canyon, this is the same

2006
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,640
like path for water.

2007
01:11:57,640 --> 01:11:59,440
So, we're looking at like a little

2008
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:01,480
reservoir or we looking at maybe storm

2009
01:12:01,480 --> 01:12:04,240
water retention? I do not know. I can

2010
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:07,990
get details and get back to you though.

2011
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,800
My understanding is when when we had

2012
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,000
that flooding was it like 20 30 years

2013
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:14,880
ago? Um

2014
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:16,040
that that a lot of the infrastructure

2015
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:19,480
was put in so that cuz if we have a very heavy snow year

2016
01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:20,640
that Slate Canyon runs quite

2017
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:22,040
aggressively and then they started

2018
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:28,910
flooding down 3rd South so.

2019
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:30,960
Um, I would add

2020
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:32,320
Go ahead, Craig.

2021
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,480
No, go ahead. I'll go after you.

2022
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:35,760
Um

2023
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,280
I've had multiple residents speak to me

2024
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:41,870
about how they wish um

2025
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,680
there was more recreational places to

2026
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,800
like eat and sit and enjoy food and

2027
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,200
stuff. Like they've talked about how you

2028
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:49,600
can go up Immigration Canyon and do

2029
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:51,280
things and go up different canyons and

2030
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:52,640
have these

2031
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:53,920
Like we just have Sundance, it's always

2032
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:55,880
busy, it's hard to get into.

2033
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:57,080
Um

2034
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:59,280
I'm so curious, Wendy, talking about a

2035
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:01,160
conservation easement. Like I remember

2036
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:04,000
eating it at um Bridal Veil Falls back

2037
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:05,960
in the day, you know, you can't do that

2038
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,920
anymore. Um, like does a conservation

2039
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:10,480
easement totally like we went to Mill

2040
01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:12,560
Creek Commons. I love how they have food

2041
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,760
incorporated into that whole thing. Um,

2042
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:19,280
and their park and I wonder if does a conservation

2043
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:21,720
easement negate the city having a food

2044
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,960
thing or something popsicles or

2045
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,720
>> Though food truck I can

2046
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:28,520
speak to in the Bonnell's Fork

2047
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,800
conservation easement we said that the

2048
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,360
management plan of that will follow the

2049
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:34,240
Parks and Rec and Public Works master

2050
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:35,560
plans.

2051
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,120
That was kind of the management plan we

2052
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,600
built into that. Similarly, Parks and

2053
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:41,160
Rec and Public Works have requested that

2054
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:42,840
for this easement as well. So, if Parks

2055
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:44,600
and Rec master plan for Slate Canyon

2056
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:47,480
Park would include a concession stand

2057
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:48,120
or like

2058
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:48,960
>> Okay, so it doesn't have to be written

2059
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:50,880
in stone now. It could be a plan that

2060
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:51,600
you have.

2061
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,320
>> it would have to within the uses that

2062
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,360
are outlined in the

2063
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:57,560
conservation easement, but Parks was

2064
01:13:57,560 --> 01:13:59,160
involved in these discussions and wants

2065
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,280
to make sure that this is a

2066
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:03,720
featured amenity of the city, so. Is it

2067
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,200
like today's master plan or does this

2068
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:08,600
conservation easement change with each

2069
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,040
master plan every five It changes. Okay,

2070
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:11,840
so that is built in.

2071
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:13,560
>> So, it's in it's in conversation and

2072
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:15,680
we're working with Utah Open Lands on

2073
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,440
our master plan in these parks to make

2074
01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:18,960
sure

2075
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:21,040
>> So, in 50 years from now if they decide,

2076
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:22,920
"Hey, we want just this big old food

2077
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:24,640
truck pad up there." That's still going

2078
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:26,560
to be permissible. Well, I'll let Wendy

2079
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:27,920
speak to that.

2080
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,160
It's just speak to Wendy is on the mic.

2081
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:32,560
Okay, go ahead.

2082
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:35,920
Um, so so again, I think as Malia is

2083
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,440
pointing out we don't have the best

2084
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:40,520
answers cuz we're still going through

2085
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:42,120
kind of the discussing what the terms

2086
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:43,960
would be, but yes

2087
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:45,480
every management plan that we've done

2088
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:47,040
especially with government entities what

2089
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:51,000
we call an adaptive management plan. And

2090
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,760
so, it adheres to the general

2091
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:54,960
principles. Right? So, you wouldn't be

2092
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,360
able to do something in the master plan

2093
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:00,640
in the future that was a private benefit

2094
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:04,520
oriented idea. But you would be able to

2095
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,400
do certain adaptations that again follow

2096
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:09,520
through with the overall goal and I

2097
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:10,760
think as

2098
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,040
we experienced with Bonnell's Fork,

2099
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:14,880
there's already quite a bit of vision

2100
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,680
within the city as it stands or how they

2101
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,600
like to see some of these recreation

2102
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,560
areas move forward really to respond to

2103
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,240
what residents want. And that would be

2104
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:28,680
something that we could even build into

2105
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,200
the adaptive element of this adaptive

2106
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:33,600
management plan. So, that I think is

2107
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:35,040
part of the answer. I think also with

2108
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:37,680
Bridal Veil, I think there you're there

2109
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:39,560
what's built into that particular

2110
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:41,440
easement, you may see some of those

2111
01:15:41,440 --> 01:15:42,800
concessions and you may see some of

2112
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:44,720
those things come back into the future.

2113
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,160
Part of it was funding in in some areas

2114
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:48,760
that were I don't want to say blight,

2115
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,280
but that had not functioned very well

2116
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,080
for a while. So, a lot of those things

2117
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:54,520
need to come into play as you just

2118
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:56,560
mentioned, right? There seems to be this

2119
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:59,200
area that has maybe less conservation

2120
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:01,080
value to it just because of some of the

2121
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,200
debris that's already there. Well, how

2122
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:04,880
that gets visioned into the future is

2123
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,000
something absolutely we can put into the

2124
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,440
conservation easement. It The way I like

2125
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:10,760
to think about it is really what we're

2126
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,720
trying to provide are these these major

2127
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:14,440
guardrails.

2128
01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:15,960
And as long as we're okay with what

2129
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:18,240
those major guardrails are, we can kind

2130
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:21,360
of work within that. So, I think that's

2131
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:23,960
fundamentally what as I understand it is

2132
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:25,800
going to be brought back to council is

2133
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,840
what are the major guardrails of this

2134
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,800
conservation easement. And then it's up

2135
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,160
to you all to say, "Well, within those

2136
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:32,480
guardrails, do we have enough

2137
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:34,680
adaptability to accomplish the things

2138
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:36,760
that we think are going to be necessary

2139
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,320
for residents, you know, 100 years from

2140
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:39,120
now?"

2141
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:40,600
Yeah, like in Southern California

2142
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:42,680
there's a beach we love to go to.

2143
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:44,200
I can't think of the name, but it's a

2144
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:46,120
state park.

2145
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:47,680
But you go down, it has one restaurant.

2146
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,320
>> I know exactly It's packed 24/7. But

2147
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,320
like my my in-laws can't walk well and

2148
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:54,400
they can't but they can go there and sit

2149
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:55,680
and look at the sunset and watch the

2150
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,280
beach for it's like their happy place,

2151
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:58,680
right? And there's people who want to

2152
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:00,720
enjoy So, that restaurant makes money.

2153
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:02,680
It's a profit center, it has to be. But

2154
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:04,560
it's in a state park. So, those kind of

2155
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,720
things can be written into it.

2156
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:08,640
Yeah, and I think the the best example

2157
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:10,520
of that is as we've looked at

2158
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,080
some of the projects along for example

2159
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:13,640
the Jordan River. If there's some of

2160
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:15,480
those things

2161
01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:16,960
You might because you want people to be

2162
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:20,480
drawn in and again, it's it's all within

2163
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:23,440
the flexibility of saying here are, you

2164
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:24,840
know, the major guardrails. I think

2165
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:26,920
there are probably going to be things as

2166
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:28,680
we look at Slate Canyon that the

2167
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,120
community wants to be able to say, "No,

2168
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:32,960
we would never want to see that." But,

2169
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:33,680
you know, are there going to be

2170
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,400
improvements to the bike park? Sure. You

2171
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:37,760
know, are there certain improvements

2172
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:38,960
that, you know, you don't want to see

2173
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:41,440
all of those things become conversations

2174
01:17:41,440 --> 01:17:43,680
that you have and I think part of it is

2175
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:45,160
looking at

2176
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:46,320
I'm not really going to say it's going

2177
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:48,480
to be able to provide everything for

2178
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:50,520
every person, but if you look at where

2179
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,960
it is in terms of the place, who's going

2180
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,560
to be attracted to it, what it The goal

2181
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:57,840
is is I understand it from Provo City is

2182
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:03,920
to really ensure that this meets what you all see as future needs for the

2183
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,120
recreation values that are part of

2184
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:07,520
Provo's.

2185
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:09,880
Thanks, Council Whitlock. And what one

2186
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:11,320
bit of context in this vein that might

2187
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:13,360
be helpful is when we were meeting

2188
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,760
doing our working sessions on this uh

2189
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:17,520
Parks for example,

2190
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,640
wanted to They had in their plan this

2191
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,680
idea to host a

2192
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:23,120
uh I believe I got this right, a frisbee

2193
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,719
golf tournament that is quite large cuz

2194
01:18:24,719 --> 01:18:26,080
you know the frisbee golf of course in

2195
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:27,840
this area and that was something that we

2196
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:29,400
were going to ensure that could be

2197
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:31,480
compatible with how this was drafted up.

2198
01:18:31,480 --> 01:18:33,320
And that and they would bring vendors

2199
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:35,000
>> Good. for a short period of time.

2200
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:36,520
Obviously, they're just temporary, but

2201
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:37,280
that's an example.

2202
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:38,600
>> Yeah, you want festivals, you want to be

2203
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:40,640
able to do things and have

2204
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,480
Okay. movies in the park.

2205
01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:45,240
Um That'd be a bumpy ride. That'd be a

2206
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:46,360
bumpy

2207
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:49,709
That bumpy ride is very steep.

2208
01:18:49,719 --> 01:18:50,760
two trees

2209
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,480
Yes. Oh, sorry. Council Christensen.

2210
01:18:53,480 --> 01:18:55,560
Um, yeah, I'd like to

2211
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:57,719
uh just jump in and say every once in a

2212
01:18:57,719 --> 01:18:59,200
while we have a chance to make a a

2213
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,000
significant a significant difference in

2214
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,560
the city.

2215
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:04,640
And when we can take a beautiful piece

2216
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:06,719
of land like this that's already up in

2217
01:19:06,719 --> 01:19:08,240
the hills, it's already the mouth of

2218
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:09,760
Slate Canyon.

2219
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,360
Uh very little of it is commercial

2220
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:14,760
grade, you know, that could be built on.

2221
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:17,719
What this signals is a commitment to our

2222
01:19:17,719 --> 01:19:19,840
citizens that we're serious about

2223
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:21,720
maintaining what makes Provo so

2224
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,080
incredibly unique.

2225
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:27,000
And so, this is not a loss for the city.

2226
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,040
This is not uh

2227
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:30,760
you know, a a trade. It's not even an

2228
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,480
equal trade. This is such a gain for us

2229
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:35,560
because for generations we maintain this

2230
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:37,320
with all of the wonderful things we just

2231
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:40,160
talked about. Yes, it can it can include

2232
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:42,280
amenities. It can make sure that it

2233
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,760
addresses all of the needs of the city.

2234
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:46,560
But, what it will prevent

2235
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:49,280
is it from being overdeveloped.

2236
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,800
And it will keep it as a as a wonderful

2237
01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:55,720
gateway to Slate Canyon. Um I I just so

2238
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:57,240
I'm so grateful for everyone who's

2239
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,000
worked hard to uh to make this happen.

2240
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,280
And I think we'll be a a tremendous gift

2241
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:05,080
to generations and generations to come.

2242
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:06,120
Thanks, Craig. Yeah, this is a

2243
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,760
no-brainer and it's something that the

2244
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:09,360
council's always

2245
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:11,360
been supportive of. Um Councilman

2246
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,800
Whitlock. Yeah, one one other comment to

2247
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,440
this effect that um I think it's helpful

2248
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:17,680
is I had a I've had a lot of

2249
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:19,080
conversations with constituents about

2250
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:20,920
this. And I think a lot of them

2251
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:23,000
recognize that given the infrastructure

2252
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,680
needs, the park is a long ways out.

2253
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:27,120
Maybe for really successful in our

2254
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:28,600
economic development it won't be as far

2255
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:30,440
out as they may think, but it's a long

2256
01:20:30,440 --> 01:20:32,600
ways out and I think to them the city

2257
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:34,840
doing this as as setting the vision of

2258
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:36,560
like this is what this land is for and

2259
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:37,680
we're preserving it for future

2260
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:40,680
generations is a is a is a win that

2261
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:42,440
they'll be grateful for and and

2262
01:20:42,440 --> 01:20:44,320
recognizing it may take a long time to

2263
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:49,670
actually build the park.

2264
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:51,920
Great. All right. Any other questions

2265
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,680
for Malia or Wendy or No, thank you,

2266
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,480
Malia. It was very helpful.

2267
01:20:57,480 --> 01:20:59,120
>> So, Malia, I see you're the next step.

2268
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:01,880
>> Yes, I was going to say

2269
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:03,560
Yes, I was going to next steps. First,

2270
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:06,200
we need a council motion. And I was also

2271
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:08,000
going to talk about if there is a

2272
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:10,080
council motion of majority support, then

2273
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:11,080
we are

2274
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,160
tentatively planning a public open house

2275
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,720
at Slate Canyon Park to do education on

2276
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,360
conservation easement, Slate Canyon, and

2277
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,720
then a little group hike and snacks.

2278
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:24,880
We always want snacks.

2279
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:26,320
I would make a motion that we move

2280
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,080
forward.

2281
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:30,400
I'll second it.

2282
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:32,560
Beat me to it.

2283
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,520
All right, we'll take a any comment on

2284
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:36,240
the motion.

2285
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,160
All right, we will take a vote on the

2286
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,320
motion. Councilman Garrett. Yes.

2287
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:41,920
Councilman McKay, yes. Councilman

2288
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:44,760
Christensen. Yes. Councilman Whitlock.

2289
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,000
Yes. Councilman Ogden. Yes. Councilman

2290
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,040
Hoban. Yes. Councilman Whipple. Yes. All

2291
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:52,040
right, that passes 7-0. Okay, and the

2292
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,176
open house is June 13th.

2293
01:21:55,176 --> 01:21:56,600
>> [laughter]

2294
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:58,400
>> Now that it is planned, as you

2295
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,350
mentioned.

2296
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:04,240
celebration

2297
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:06,480
Thanks, Wendy. And thanks uh all the

2298
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:10,190
good people from CUV.

2299
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,120
All right.

2300
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:16,270
Yeah, we are we are grateful to

2301
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,840
Conserve Utah for paying those fees and

2302
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:20,160
covering the administrative part of

2303
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:21,640
that.

2304
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:23,720
All right, next resolution appointing

2305
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:25,680
public members to the council standing

2306
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:26,760
committee.

2307
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:28,760
And this will be presented by Tanner

2308
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:30,720
Taguchi.

2309
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,400
Thank you, Council. So, back to the

2310
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:35,080
business of audit charters. Did we get

2311
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:37,280
like out of line there with that?

2312
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:38,920
You didn't break.

2313
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:41,240
Under the current uh audit committee

2314
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,440
charter as written, it requires that

2315
01:22:43,440 --> 01:22:45,680
citizen members participate

2316
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:47,360
and that they be approved by the

2317
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:52,280
council. Uh one member of the current uh

2318
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:53,760
audit committee will not be returning.

2319
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:55,480
Dave Shipley

2320
01:22:55,480 --> 01:22:57,320
uh is unable to adhere to his

2321
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,320
responsibilities.

2322
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:00,840
However, Rick Anderson, who is an

2323
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,200
incumbent member of the committee, uh

2324
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,240
has expressed willingness to uh continue

2325
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,080
to serve in that role as the as citizen

2326
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:09,800
member of the audit committee. And

2327
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:11,960
the council will just need to be able to

2328
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:13,600
approve that.

2329
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:15,920
So, I sent a little bit of biographical

2330
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:19,080
information uh in packet about Rick.

2331
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:20,720
Those who have more experience with Rick

2332
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:22,600
than me can also speak to his experience

2333
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:24,120
on the council and his professional

2334
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:25,480
life. But,

2335
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:26,200
that is what

2336
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,240
>> I'll just say he's been he's been a he's

2337
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:30,600
contributed. He's been active part of

2338
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,480
the committee. He's

2339
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:34,120
added value.

2340
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:35,880
So, if he wants to continue to serve, I

2341
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:37,400
think that's great.

2342
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:39,360
Um if we add another council member,

2343
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:41,880
we'd love to add another citizen member

2344
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,520
to the committee as well. So, at some

2345
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:46,200
point maybe we come back and do this

2346
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:47,560
again.

2347
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:49,320
Sad to see Dave Shipley go and grateful

2348
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,280
for his service that he provided the

2349
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,200
committee. He has a good financial mind

2350
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:56,760
and it was nice to have him on there.

2351
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:58,160
Terrific.

2352
01:23:58,160 --> 01:23:59,040
So, uh

2353
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,520
there are no other uh questions about

2354
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:03,560
it. It's it's this other than the the

2355
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:05,080
resolution before us, there's really no

2356
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:06,200
other information that I have to

2357
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:10,030
present.

2358
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:12,360
All right, next

2359
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:15,760
application regarding the FY

2360
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:17,920
year '26 to '27 budgeted revenue

2361
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:19,680
comparison.

2362
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:20,880
That's what we're going to do or take a

2363
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,440
break now. That's a fair three financial

2364
01:24:23,440 --> 01:24:24,200
statements.

2365
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:25,320
They're not here. All right, they're

2366
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:26,840
right here.

2367
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:28,240
Let's do it then.

2368
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:30,720
Do it right then. Sorry, no I got to get

2369
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:32,440
up the stairs as soon as I saw Tanner

2370
01:24:32,440 --> 01:24:34,400
get on the I'm ready.

2371
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:37,320
I'm so speedy. I wasn't speedy enough.

2372
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:38,640
No, we're good.

2373
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:43,150
Um okay, well, let's get started.

2374
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:46,680
Oh, thanks, Kevin. Okay, so FY27

2375
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,000
budgeted revenue comparison. I just want

2376
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:50,400
to give you the caveat these slides were

2377
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:52,560
prepared a couple of months ago. So,

2378
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:54,120
rather than focusing on like exact

2379
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:55,840
numbers, I think it'd be more beneficial

2380
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:57,640
to just focus on some of the trends that

2381
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,680
we're seeing, which will set the stage

2382
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:01,000
for the tentative budget that you'll

2383
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:03,320
receive next Tuesday. So, as long as

2384
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:06,360
we're all on board with that, um

2385
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:09,000
we'll just keep going.

2386
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:10,160
So,

2387
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,360
I think let's start with general fund.

2388
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,080
allocations are you know,

2389
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:16,520
about the same um as we've seen in

2390
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,480
previous years. Sales taxes are biggest

2391
01:25:18,480 --> 01:25:20,440
revenue source. Transfers from other

2392
01:25:20,440 --> 01:25:22,720
funds is right up there and then the

2393
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:26,790
others are you know, the other half.

2394
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:29,240
Um oh, sorry, going back to this. So,

2395
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:31,320
the reason why these two revenue sources

2396
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,840
are kind of highlighted or grayed out is

2397
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:36,120
because the city like the council and

2398
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:37,520
the administration don't have a lot of

2399
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:39,520
control over a lot of the general fund

2400
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:41,640
revenues. We're really dependent on

2401
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:43,200
what's happening in the economy, what

2402
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,160
taxes are just flowing in from the

2403
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:48,560
state, and so on. Property tax though

2404
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:50,760
and transfers from the utilities funds,

2405
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:52,480
those are areas that the city has a

2406
01:25:52,480 --> 01:25:54,560
little bit more direct control over in

2407
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:57,680
terms of balancing budgets. Um

2408
01:25:57,680 --> 01:25:59,160
and so, just wanted to kind of highlight

2409
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:01,640
that. You might say, "What about fees?"

2410
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:04,880
And yes, we can look at fees certainly,

2411
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,120
but there's a ceiling on what we can

2412
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:08,680
charge for fees. They can only cover

2413
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:10,880
direct costs. And so, just something to

2414
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,760
keep in mind. They're not going to be

2415
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:15,800
generating revenue above what um the

2416
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:20,590
direct costs could be.

2417
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:23,200
Yeah, this is the B&C roads tax. Yes,

2418
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:24,720
exactly. It comes through the general

2419
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:26,520
fund and then covers the streets

2420
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:28,760
operating budget. And then it flows into

2421
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:31,040
the B&C roads for capital projects into

2422
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:33,480
that CIP fund.

2423
01:26:33,480 --> 01:26:34,560
Okay.

2424
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,440
This is a property tax bill breakdown

2425
01:26:36,440 --> 01:26:39,440
from last year basically. Um just good

2426
01:26:39,440 --> 01:26:42,120
for residents to know in the FY27 budget

2427
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:43,640
there's no plan for a property tax

2428
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:45,880
increase um whether it's general

2429
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:49,160
operations or library. So, if any of the

2430
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:52,080
city's portions go up, it's probably

2431
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:53,560
because your property valuation has

2432
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:55,680
changed. And so, that's that's what the

2433
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:57,040
tentative budget would assume for the

2434
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,080
next year. And again, remember this is

2435
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:00,880
an area the city does have control over

2436
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:02,560
and influencing and we're not going to

2437
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,560
touch it in the tentative budget.

2438
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:08,600
Um in terms of the utility sales, the

2439
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:10,080
transfers to the general fund, if you

2440
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:11,760
remember this time last year there was a

2441
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:13,080
proposal

2442
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:15,480
that the transfer of utility funds go

2443
01:27:15,480 --> 01:27:17,800
from 11% of utility revenues to 12 and

2444
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:22,000
1/2% as a way to balance. And that was

2445
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:24,000
great last year. We're going to keep it

2446
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:25,720
at 12 and 1/2% this year. We're not

2447
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:28,800
recommending any changes. And so, um

2448
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:29,960
that's just something to keep in mind

2449
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,600
going into next week.

2450
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,720
Um the reason why we haven't really had

2451
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:36,240
to worry about transfers from other

2452
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:38,240
funds or the property tax is because

2453
01:27:38,240 --> 01:27:40,920
sales tax is looking really strong. Um

2454
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:42,760
it's been looking great for almost 12

2455
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,000
months now. And it's amazing because

2456
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:46,240
last year

2457
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:47,640
when we were preparing the budget,

2458
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:49,560
trends were not looking as good. There

2459
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:51,920
are a couple of reasons why we're seeing

2460
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:54,680
this change. The first one

2461
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:56,000
and you may have heard some of this last

2462
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:58,000
year, but last year's numbers were kind

2463
01:27:58,000 --> 01:27:59,520
of weird that we were getting from the

2464
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,880
state. There were some abnormalities

2465
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:04,560
that we hadn't seen in other years. The

2466
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:06,520
first one was there was another taxing

2467
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:08,840
entity in Utah that was getting some of

2468
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:10,560
our sales tax revenue.

2469
01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:12,760
And luckily, John was amazing last year.

2470
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:14,840
He was able to identify that this was

2471
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,560
happening and we were able to recoup

2472
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:19,400
that money later, but it wasn't until

2473
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:21,400
about June that we got that money. And

2474
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:23,480
so, that's one reason sales tax revenues

2475
01:28:23,480 --> 01:28:25,440
were down. The other abnormality was

2476
01:28:25,440 --> 01:28:28,200
that there had been a entity, a business

2477
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:30,800
in Provo, that had been overpaying sales

2478
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:33,640
tax for several years. And the state

2479
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,680
identified this and understandably, you

2480
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,560
know, refunded this entity for the

2481
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,400
overpayment, but it hit Provo all at

2482
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:43,320
once in one fiscal year

2483
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:45,360
um that reimbursement of what we had

2484
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:46,560
received from this entity that was in

2485
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:48,520
overpayment. So, Okay, Councilman Hoban

2486
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:48,840
wants to ask

2487
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:50,320
>> Was that was a large entity then, I

2488
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,280
would assume? It was it wasn't

2489
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:54,040
>> such an impact? It was an entity that

2490
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:55,800
was large, but we can't really go into

2491
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,200
details on what it was.

2492
01:28:58,200 --> 01:28:59,960
Um just for privacy of the entity.

2493
01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:01,760
>> Do we know how that occurred? Was it

2494
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:03,880
their fault or the It I think it was the

2495
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:05,800
entity's fault. Like I think they

2496
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:07,960
overpaid or there had been something

2497
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:09,360
where some of the revenue needed to go

2498
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:11,440
out of state and Utah got more of it,

2499
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:12,960
something like that.

2500
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,000
Um anyway, that's probably all I can say

2501
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,200
on that, but it was an odd situation,

2502
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:19,880
and we haven't been seeing that again,

2503
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:21,920
and I don't think I don't think that

2504
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:22,920
>> of that?

2505
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,120
Oh, I can't remember. It was Like seven

2506
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,200
figures? No, we're talking like

2507
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:30,600
maybe 600,000 if I'm remembering from a

2508
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:32,800
year ago. I can get the exact number on

2509
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:33,520
the impact, but

2510
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:34,680
>> That's all right. Just curious.

2511
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:35,400
Interesting.

2512
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:37,360
>> all of these hits like in the fall, and

2513
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:38,800
you're trying to project out what the

2514
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,160
rest of the year is going to look like,

2515
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,720
it's influencing the projections, right?

2516
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:44,080
And so, I know that we had tried to

2517
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,160
account for that in some degree, but

2518
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:47,320
anyway,

2519
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:49,920
it ended up working out better this year

2520
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:51,400
for us, and we're very grateful for

2521
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:53,400
that. Um another reason besides the

2522
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:55,440
abnormalities of why sales tax is

2523
01:29:55,440 --> 01:29:58,800
looking so good this year is in July,

2524
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,080
the state adopted a new data set for use

2525
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:06,040
for population numbers. Mhm. Um so,

2526
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:07,760
previously the state had been if you

2527
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:09,360
remember like for sales tax

2528
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:10,720
distributions,

2529
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:13,680
um part of it comes from population. 50%

2530
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,680
is 50 or like Sorry. Part of the sales

2531
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:18,080
tax distribution comes from your popu-

2532
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:20,120
population numbers, and the other part

2533
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:22,040
comes from your point of sale.

2534
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:23,320
And so,

2535
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:24,920
the population numbers had previously

2536
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:27,400
been derived from US Census Bureau data,

2537
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:28,680
and I think people at the state were a

2538
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,280
little bit unsure of how reliable that

2539
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:33,200
2020 census had been since it happened

2540
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:35,600
during COVID. So, they switched to the

2541
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:37,920
Kem C. Gardner Policy Institute um over

2542
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:39,000
at the U, they switched to those

2543
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:40,160
numbers,

2544
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:42,520
and it helped Provo. Like, we got a

2545
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:44,680
couple extra thousand residents added to

2546
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,440
our um population for the sales tax

2547
01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:49,840
allocation, and so, it bumped up our

2548
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:51,520
revenue from that perspective, which

2549
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:53,240
we're grateful for. When did we become

2550
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:54,360
aware of that?

2551
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,720
It happened in July

2552
01:30:57,720 --> 01:31:00,990
of 2025.

2553
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:03,200
No, it was not. I wish. That would have

2554
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:05,160
been really nice, but no. So, it's been

2555
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:06,920
basically this fiscal year, fiscal year

2556
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,000
'26 that we've been seeing that benefit

2557
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:11,760
from the population numbers. Um

2558
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:15,080
and it's boosted our sales tax for sure,

2559
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:18,200
but I think it's important to note that

2560
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:20,120
if you look at our sales tax revenue,

2561
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:21,240
like

2562
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:24,320
60% of our sales tax revenue in FY26 has

2563
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,520
come from our population numbers,

2564
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:28,360
and then you have 40% coming from point

2565
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:29,960
of sale. So, it's something to keep in

2566
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:31,800
mind as you're doing your economic

2567
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,000
development study just in terms of how

2568
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:36,760
to generate maybe more point of sale tax

2569
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:38,800
revenue. Do we know how point of sale is

2570
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:40,640
looking relative?

2571
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:43,120
Like if we were

2572
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:44,360
I mean,

2573
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:46,360
is point of sale looking good? I mean,

2574
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:47,640
it's

2575
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,080
I mean, I think ideally it would be a

2576
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:52,400
bigger portion of our sales tax revenue

2577
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:54,960
coming in, about like maybe 50%. It'd be

2578
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:55,800
50/50.

2579
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:57,600
>> I guess what I was asking is like, are

2580
01:31:57,600 --> 01:31:59,160
we seeing a trend?

2581
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:01,600
Uh is are people spending less? Are they

2582
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:03,560
spending more?

2583
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:05,480
So, I would say I'd point So, like the

2584
01:32:05,480 --> 01:32:06,800
third reason,

2585
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:08,480
uh this will answer your question. The

2586
01:32:08,480 --> 01:32:10,760
third reason why our sales tax revenue

2587
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,320
is so strong is just because the state

2588
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:14,200
of Utah's economy is looking really

2589
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:19,560
good. Um and so, I would say that

2590
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:22,520
people are spending, and

2591
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:24,160
whether it's like in Provo or just the

2592
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:25,640
state, we're seeing a benefit from

2593
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:27,920
spending overall,

2594
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:30,120
and I can just say that Provo's point of

2595
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,400
sale is only 40% of our sales tax

2596
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,680
revenue. So, I have a question about

2597
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:35,680
that. Yeah.

2598
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,680
No, I was just curious.

2599
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:39,520
Last was 35 or it was 40? We would have

2600
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:41,000
to go back and check. Oh, it's like a

2601
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,960
trend. Yeah, I'm not sure. Um I think

2602
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,240
Dan just looked at the numbers, and I

2603
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:47,240
think we had dropped to like

2604
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:50,880
39.something percent for the last look

2605
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:53,560
at the projections for sales tax revenue

2606
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:55,520
this year. So, I wouldn't say that's the

2607
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:57,360
best trend, but maybe it's fluctuating.

2608
01:32:57,360 --> 01:32:58,720
We'd have to do more of an analysis. I

2609
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:00,280
think we have some data that we could

2610
01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:02,000
look at, but I don't have it right now.

2611
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:05,400
40% of it should be 100% of our sales

2612
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:07,080
point of sale. Yes. In the city of

2613
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:08,880
Provo. Yeah, like out of our sales tax

2614
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:11,800
revenue numbers, like we're basically

2615
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:14,480
saying 60% of that money is coming from

2616
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:15,560
the population portion of the

2617
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:17,320
allocation, and then the 40% So, what is

2618
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:19,120
the how is this population allocation

2619
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,680
decided? Why do we get 60% of

2620
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:23,800
population? Well, it's not it's not

2621
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,160
really we get 60%. It's just saying out

2622
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:27,720
of the revenue that's coming in, like

2623
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:29,920
the state the state breaks down like out

2624
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:31,120
of all the revenue that we're bringing

2625
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,680
in for sales tax, it's saying out of

2626
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:35,520
this pot of money that you get each

2627
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,360
month, like here's how much is because

2628
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:40,840
of your population, and here's how much

2629
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:42,440
It's ba- it's basically like what

2630
01:33:42,440 --> 01:33:44,840
happens is um of the total sales when

2631
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:46,240
someone spends a dollar of the

2632
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:48,560
7.whatever percent, some percent of it

2633
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:50,000
is attributed to point of sale, which

2634
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:51,840
comes back to us. Some of it goes into a

2635
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:53,320
general state pot, which then gets

2636
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:54,760
reallocated to the cities based on the

2637
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:57,320
population. So, is that 40% comes back

2638
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,000
to us because it's point of sale, and

2639
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,640
then 60 cents goes into that It's not

2640
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:03,760
40% coming back. It's saying of that 30

2641
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:05,960
million, 40% of that 30 million is

2642
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:07,840
attributable to point of sale, and 60%

2643
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:09,600
is attributable to our population.

2644
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:10,040
That's right.

2645
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:12,840
>> want to have a stronger point of sale.

2646
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:13,040
>> Yeah.

2647
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:14,640
>> Correct. still reliant on our

2648
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:17,320
population. Right. for our sales because

2649
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:19,520
What's the equation for it? Like Yeah,

2650
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:21,960
that's what I I can look it up. I'm

2651
01:34:21,960 --> 01:34:23,640
pretty sure we have a PDF. I just don't

2652
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:25,400
have it The mayor knows.

2653
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:28,120
So, so the the whole sales tax that you

2654
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:31,280
pay, 1% of that is the local sales tax.

2655
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:33,840
And so, they take 1% of all the sales

2656
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:39,000
that happen in Utah, and they look and then they look at all the sales that

2657
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,920
happen in Provo. So, half of that

2658
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:44,800
percent goes to point of sale all

2659
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:46,320
throughout Utah, right? So, we get our

2660
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:48,080
half percent, Orum gets their half

2661
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,560
percent of all the Does that make sense

2662
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:51,480
of

2663
01:34:51,480 --> 01:34:53,200
And it's the sales that happen here,

2664
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:55,160
that's the point of sale. Then like she

2665
01:34:55,160 --> 01:34:56,880
said, they take that other half a

2666
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:58,480
percent, and that goes into a big

2667
01:34:58,480 --> 01:35:01,400
bucket, and then they divide that up for

2668
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:03,680
population.

2669
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:05,840
So, that 1% is 50/50.

2670
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:07,040
>> What What this is saying What this is

2671
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:08,800
saying 50% of it

2672
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:11,680
>> So, if someone brought in a $100 in

2673
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,000
sales tax, we keep 50 of it, and 50 of

2674
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:15,600
it goes to the state, and that state

2675
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:18,560
then distributes 1% of that $50. So,

2676
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:20,920
It's divided, yeah.

2677
01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:21,240
So,

2678
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:23,880
>> of the 100, right? 1% of it Yeah, 1% is

2679
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:26,080
a dollar. So, then of that, 50 cents

2680
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:28,120
would go to point of sale for us. So, we

2681
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:30,880
keep 99 and a half percent.

2682
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,640
No. Well, then the other 50 cents of

2683
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:36,320
that dollar goes into a big pot, okay,

2684
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:39,000
and it's divided up of population But

2685
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:40,600
the the reason why it's the But the

2686
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:42,480
reason why it's 60/40 for us is because

2687
01:35:42,480 --> 01:35:44,800
our population is spending less relative

2688
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,920
to our pop- like we're not spending that

2689
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:49,320
much money here locally in Provo, and we

2690
01:35:49,320 --> 01:35:51,880
have relative to our population.

2691
01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:54,520
So, my guess is

2692
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:56,600
Correct. Exactly. So, it's like my guess

2693
01:35:56,600 --> 01:35:58,200
is some, you know, like Park City or

2694
01:35:58,200 --> 01:35:59,600
whatever is probably 60/40 the other

2695
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:00,840
way.

2696
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:04,270
Maybe even more.

2697
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:06,200
Oh, that's probably the total, right?

2698
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:07,280
Yeah.

2699
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:08,560
Those are the numbers, but it had our

2700
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:10,440
thing of all of the cities

2701
01:36:10,440 --> 01:36:12,200
So, we were really close to Orum.

2702
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:14,240
Yeah, and we're like Park City was lower

2703
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:15,400
than us. I don't know. It was just a

2704
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:16,800
technicality.

2705
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:18,720
Back If you're looking at total numbers,

2706
01:36:18,720 --> 01:36:20,520
it's because their population is so much

2707
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:22,080
lower, and they just get the exact same

2708
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:24,360
amount per person that we do.

2709
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:26,000
So, What city? What's how many people

2710
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:27,160
there?

2711
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:29,000
Not as many as in Provo.

2712
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,120
Yeah, not really. We can Probably like

2713
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,120
20,000 full-time residents.

2714
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:35,280
We can certainly do like a deeper dive.

2715
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:38,080
I mean, it sounds like there's pretty

2716
01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:40,080
Like I appreciate the comments on

2717
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:41,320
explaining how that works, but we are

2718
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:43,600
happy to provide some material or do a

2719
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,400
deep dive on sales tax.

2720
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:46,840
Yeah, thank you, Councilmember Herbert.

2721
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,000
8,500 full-time residents.

2722
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,400
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, my my guess is

2723
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:52,800
Yeah, yeah. So, my guess is that they're

2724
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:54,320
probably 70/30. They're probably getting

2725
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:56,480
70% of their sales tax from point of

2726
01:36:56,480 --> 01:36:58,680
sale, and 30 or it could even be 80/20

2727
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:01,160
like in the opposite direction.

2728
01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:01,560
Yes.

2729
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:03,000
>> So, so when you say ideally it should be

2730
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:06,160
more, I'm I'm just saying Are you Do you

2731
01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:08,360
have like benchmarks in your mind or I I

2732
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:11,560
don't. It was more of just a a point for

2733
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:17,000
the council to be aware of is that while sales tax is something we really

2734
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:18,880
kind of just get and just get from the

2735
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:20,800
state every month, and some of it's

2736
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:22,080
based on population, and some of it's

2737
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:24,040
point on sale point of sale, it's just

2738
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:25,640
good to know that if you want to

2739
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:27,960
increase sales tax number, then point of

2740
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:30,000
sale is an area that that economic

2741
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:31,760
development study might shed some light

2742
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:33,760
on. I guess probably the way that it

2743
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:35,560
mathematically works, 50/50 is the

2744
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:37,640
average, right? That would make sense.

2745
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:40,600
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that makes sense.

2746
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:42,040
Um

2747
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:49,670
Overall though, I just want

2748
01:37:49,680 --> 01:38:09,830
Oh, wow.

2749
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:11,719
Okay. Oh, is there a question about

2750
01:38:11,719 --> 01:38:12,840
that? I just have a couple quick

2751
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:13,360
questions.

2752
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:16,430
>> Yeah. Um

2753
01:38:16,440 --> 01:38:20,240
So, uh on the enterprise fund pie chart,

2754
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:23,120
it's uh there's a 166.4

2755
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:25,440
million, but then the changes table has

2756
01:38:25,440 --> 01:38:27,440
158.3, and I was just wondering what

2757
01:38:27,440 --> 01:38:30,240
that discrepancy Um I can get to that.

2758
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:31,960
Again, I

2759
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:34,280
a lot of the numbers have changed, and

2760
01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:36,400
so, I think like next week when you get

2761
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:39,920
the the '27 budget in your hands, like

2762
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:42,080
it'll have all the updated numbers and

2763
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:45,280
more accurate comparisons. Um anyway,

2764
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:47,760
not to dismiss that question. It's just

2765
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:49,520
I think you'll have

2766
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:51,160
more relevant information

2767
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:52,840
>> to go over all this again soon with the

2768
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:55,560
exact numbers? We can certainly do that

2769
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:58,800
if the council would like us to. Yeah.

2770
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:00,480
Sorry to say, one one question that I

2771
01:39:00,480 --> 01:39:02,320
was also relate was interested in, which

2772
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:03,280
you kind of spoke to, but it'd be

2773
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:05,440
interesting to get more details on is of

2774
01:39:05,440 --> 01:39:08,719
that uh $4 million sales increase, what

2775
01:39:08,719 --> 01:39:10,680
would be attributable to the population

2776
01:39:10,680 --> 01:39:13,280
reweighted versus underlying just retail

2777
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:16,710
sales growth.

2778
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:18,280
Yeah, we can look at that. I'm just

2779
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:20,000
making some notes here.

2780
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:21,760
The The ignorance [clears throat]

2781
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:23,080
um

2782
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:24,320
the increase on the road taxes, that's

2783
01:39:24,320 --> 01:39:26,200
pretty significant. It's based on

2784
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:28,400
trends. Again, old numbers. I'm not sure

2785
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:29,960
if that's what's it's going to translate

2786
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:31,760
into in the tentative budget, but that's

2787
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:33,000
kind of what it was looking like 2

2788
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:35,320
months ago. But again, we looked at the

2789
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:36,840
numbers again

2790
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:38,480
shortly after the slides were prepared.

2791
01:39:38,480 --> 01:39:40,240
So, I just I just want you guys to know

2792
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:42,440
like this is not final. No, but still I

2793
01:39:42,440 --> 01:39:44,360
mean even if it levels out to a million

2794
01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:45,960
dollars, it's still a big jump. And the

2795
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:48,200
road road tax has been coming in strong.

2796
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:49,880
I know that there there are some

2797
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:51,320
legislation that has happened up the

2798
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:51,560
state.

2799
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:53,280
>> so high, is that it? That This would

2800
01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,200
have happened for the gas prices. And

2801
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:57,000
so, I think

2802
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:58,920
the legislation the legislature I also

2803
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,360
know just passed some in some bills

2804
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:03,200
about

2805
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:05,760
the gas tax. And I think public works

2806
01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:07,160
has also been concerned about how that

2807
01:40:07,160 --> 01:40:08,600
might play into some of our revenues

2808
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:11,000
there. So, we've been revisiting some of

2809
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,400
the numbers there for those reasons.

2810
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:14,520
Um

2811
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:16,360
Ultimately though, I think Yes.

2812
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:18,360
>> to that, I would just want to confirm

2813
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:20,920
that the transportation utility fees

2814
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:24,160
include other fees and not road taxes.

2815
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:26,760
Um it would be included I think in its

2816
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:29,520
own fund. So, this is general fund

2817
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:31,200
specifically, but yes, it would not be

2818
01:40:31,200 --> 01:40:32,760
included in these road taxes. You're

2819
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:34,640
right. Yeah. Well, and the reason I'm

2820
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:36,120
asking, you know, cuz that's a

2821
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:37,720
million-dollar difference, is that

2822
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:39,360
something we can control? Do we

2823
01:40:39,360 --> 01:40:41,160
anticipate that coming in the future?

2824
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:42,760
Did we do something differently? Did the

2825
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:45,000
state do So, it seems like

2826
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:45,880
>> Yeah. The

2827
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:48,080
To understand that would be useful. I'll

2828
01:40:48,080 --> 01:40:49,520
take a look and see what our updated

2829
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:51,080
number is for that one. I do agree it

2830
01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:53,640
was it was quite a bit higher coming in.

2831
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:55,680
But I know that our actuals were looking

2832
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,160
good as well. So,

2833
01:40:58,160 --> 01:40:59,000
um

2834
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:00,560
yeah, we can see if we can identify like

2835
01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:02,000
the exact reason why that would be

2836
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:02,440
higher.

2837
01:41:02,440 --> 01:41:05,000
>> be good to understand. Um

2838
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:06,280
Good.

2839
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:08,680
I think the main takeaway for this is

2840
01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:11,160
just knowing that when you receive the

2841
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:13,600
budget next week, know that sales tax

2842
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:16,920
has really been a strong

2843
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,280
factor in balancing the budget in terms

2844
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:23,560
of being able to fund things and um

2845
01:41:23,560 --> 01:41:25,080
it's it's just a big player this year

2846
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:27,600
just like some of the other factors like

2847
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:29,120
the utility transfer was a big player

2848
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:31,400
last year. Sales tax is kind of leading

2849
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:33,920
out for FY27.

2850
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:35,160
Um

2851
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:37,240
It's good to know our sales tax is good.

2852
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:38,720
Yeah, it's good to know. For sure.

2853
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:41,440
>> outside of the what the state is has

2854
01:41:41,440 --> 01:41:43,920
changed, I mean, I guess if you knew

2855
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:45,560
this, you would be a billionaire and you

2856
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:46,960
wouldn't be sitting here.

2857
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:49,120
Do we anticipate Do we know what how

2858
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:51,520
things are going to look for the future?

2859
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:54,560
I mean, what do the experts project for

2860
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:57,240
economics and macroeconomics and how

2861
01:41:57,240 --> 01:41:59,000
that's going to impact sales tax revenue

2862
01:41:59,000 --> 01:41:59,240
for FY27?

2863
01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:01,040
>> and Tanner, you might need to back me up

2864
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:04,200
because we were at UGFOA together. Um

2865
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:06,800
but we there was um UGFOA is Utah

2866
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:08,560
Government Finance Officers Association

2867
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:11,280
and they had a conference um

2868
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:13,880
kind of beginning of April and they

2869
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:17,000
always end with an economic outlook from

2870
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:18,680
Zion's Bank. They have an economist who

2871
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:20,320
does a good job of just compiling tons

2872
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:22,360
of data and just kind of showing what

2873
01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:24,520
trends are. And he prefaced everything

2874
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:27,920
by saying that

2875
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,480
it's hard for anyone to really know

2876
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:31,480
what's going on with the economy and no

2877
01:42:31,480 --> 01:42:33,280
one really knows for sure like what will

2878
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:34,880
happen.

2879
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:36,440
Um he said there've been a lot of

2880
01:42:36,440 --> 01:42:38,680
disruptions in the economy. So, you

2881
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:39,680
know, you think you might have a

2882
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:41,800
recovery happening and okay, Tanner's

2883
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:44,400
nodding, so I'm not making this up. Um

2884
01:42:44,400 --> 01:42:46,040
there've been disruptions, so you think

2885
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:47,800
the economy's like stabilizing, but then

2886
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:49,000
something will happen that kind of

2887
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:50,720
throws things off and no one really

2888
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:52,600
knows if it's a fluke or if it's going

2889
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:53,720
to last.

2890
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:55,960
Anyway, his takeaway though, and that

2891
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:58,640
was like what I wrote in big letters, is

2892
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:00,640
the economy's still

2893
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:02,040
it's still chugging along.

2894
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:02,560
>> strong.

2895
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:04,440
>> It's still strong and in particular,

2896
01:43:04,440 --> 01:43:07,440
Utah is leading out in the economy in

2897
01:43:07,440 --> 01:43:09,080
the United States. And so, even if we

2898
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:10,760
were worried about national trends,

2899
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:13,520
Utah's still kind of riding above

2900
01:43:13,520 --> 01:43:16,400
national trends and so

2901
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:18,960
from that perspective, it doesn't seem

2902
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:21,000
unreasonable to budget for stronger

2903
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:23,200
sales tax next year.

2904
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:25,600
Okay. If if our sales tax ended up going

2905
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:27,200
down, then there would be a lot of other

2906
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:29,360
people who would be hurting worse than

2907
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:31,360
us, I think, as a state.

2908
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:33,000
So,

2909
01:43:33,000 --> 01:43:34,920
anyway, I think that's probably the main

2910
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:36,880
takeaway. The other slides again with

2911
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:40,990
the enterprise stuff, I think

2912
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,400
there's changes, but we'll go over those

2913
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:46,400
more in depth next week. And so, I think

2914
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:48,720
that we'll leave it at that for now and

2915
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:50,080
we're excited to give you the tentative

2916
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:53,480
budget next Tuesday. So, look forward to

2917
01:43:53,480 --> 01:43:56,640
that. Councilor Wetzel. Yeah, just

2918
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:58,400
So, I know for the last few years we've

2919
01:43:58,400 --> 01:43:59,720
been

2920
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:01,560
um

2921
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:03,880
very cautious in our sales tax

2922
01:44:03,880 --> 01:44:06,040
projections because we've gotten caught

2923
01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:07,520
a little bit by that.

2924
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:10,040
>> Yeah. Um since last year it came in

2925
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:12,440
better than we were expecting.

2926
01:44:12,440 --> 01:44:12,960
>> Yeah.

2927
01:44:12,960 --> 01:44:15,640
Do we have surplus from from that that

2928
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:18,040
we had not expected?

2929
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:18,800
>> current year?

2930
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:19,840
>> In the current year.

2931
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:22,000
>> a surplus, yes. And I know that there

2932
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:24,040
are a few appropriations that need to

2933
01:44:24,040 --> 01:44:26,240
happen this year that will come probably

2934
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:27,960
through on base shortly.

2935
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:29,920
Um but yes, beyond that there is a

2936
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:31,600
surplus that will benefit general fund

2937
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:33,720
balance. Wonderful. Thank Yeah. Thanks

2938
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:35,640
for the question. Okay, that's all I

2939
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:37,280
have. Thank you for your time. Thanks,

2940
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:38,680
Kelsey.

2941
01:44:38,680 --> 01:44:41,280
Now we get a break.

2942
01:44:41,280 --> 01:44:42,960
Well, it's too late. Exciting times in

2943
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:44,320
the city.

2944
01:44:44,320 --> 01:44:47,040
So, we'll meet up at 3:00. Thank you,

2945
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:48,240
Kelsey.

2946
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:52,870
Recording stopped.

2947
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:56,000
Recording in progress.

2948
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:57,640
All right, welcome back. Next we have a

2949
01:44:57,640 --> 01:44:59,200
presentation regarding the victim

2950
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:02,720
services program. Presented by Kim Fein.

2951
01:45:02,720 --> 01:45:16,790
And the victim services team.

2952
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:19,040
Good afternoon. Thanks for um giving us

2953
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:21,880
some time this afternoon. I am Kim Fein.

2954
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:24,520
I'm the victim services coordinator and

2955
01:45:24,520 --> 01:45:28,040
twice a year we are required by the VOCA

2956
01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:31,240
grant, which we are a recipient, um to

2957
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:34,800
come and report to our shareholders or

2958
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:37,200
our stakeholders, um kind of just a

2959
01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:39,040
little bit about

2960
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:41,360
um what we've done in in during this

2961
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:43,400
past fiscal year. And so, this is our

2962
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:47,520
second um report of of this fiscal year.

2963
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:48,840
So, um

2964
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:51,560
I'll just give you a little quick

2965
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:55,080
See if I can figure this out.

2966
01:45:55,080 --> 01:45:59,510
Nope.

2967
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:01,040
Oh, there it is.

2968
01:46:01,040 --> 01:46:03,720
Um just a little bit about who we are.

2969
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:06,680
Our mission statement reads to provide

2970
01:46:06,680 --> 01:46:09,200
crisis intervention, emotional support,

2971
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:11,240
and critical service referrals to aid

2972
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:14,040
victims and their children, as well as

2973
01:46:14,040 --> 01:46:15,960
to promote community awareness on

2974
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:17,920
victimization issues.

2975
01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:20,920
So, we are physically located within the

2976
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:23,240
with the police department and we are

2977
01:46:23,240 --> 01:46:25,280
part of the criminal investigation

2978
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:28,830
division.

2979
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:31,520
Go please. My name's Becky. Um I'm one

2980
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,680
of the full-time advocates here.

2981
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:35,720
Okay, perfect. Thank you. So, this is

2982
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:38,200
our team. Um our team consists of five

2983
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:39,960
advocates. Four of us are full-time and

2984
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:42,480
one of us is a part-time court advocate.

2985
01:46:42,480 --> 01:46:44,280
Um two of our full-time advocates are

2986
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:45,800
Spanish-speaking, so that's really

2987
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:49,080
awesome to have. Um and in addition to

2988
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:52,320
the um our work schedule like during the

2989
01:46:52,320 --> 01:46:54,760
day, one of us is always on call 24/7.

2990
01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:57,200
So, we rotate a week at a time and so,

2991
01:46:57,200 --> 01:46:58,640
we'll just kind of go throughout the

2992
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:00,440
month so that officers can always get a

2993
01:47:00,440 --> 01:47:01,760
hold of us in case there's a scene that

2994
01:47:01,760 --> 01:47:04,160
we need to respond to um or victims that

2995
01:47:04,160 --> 01:47:05,240
we need to call in the middle of the

2996
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:07,320
night or just whenever

2997
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:08,840
things are happening. So, that's kind of

2998
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:10,600
the structure of our team.

2999
01:47:10,600 --> 01:47:12,000
And then this is who we serve. So, we

3000
01:47:12,000 --> 01:47:14,600
serve any victims of interpersonal crime

3001
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:16,360
and so, most of that is domestic

3002
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:18,720
violence and sexual assault. Um but we

3003
01:47:18,720 --> 01:47:21,480
also help victims who um had physical

3004
01:47:21,480 --> 01:47:23,800
assault happen, stalking, harassment,

3005
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,080
crimes against children, hate crimes,

3006
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:28,040
elder abuse. We also help with

3007
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:29,880
homicides, suicides, and unexpected

3008
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:31,920
death and emergencies and traumatic

3009
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:33,720
events. So, anything where it's a

3010
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:35,360
person-on-person crime, we're happy to

3011
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:37,560
go help out and make sure that people

3012
01:47:37,560 --> 01:47:39,160
are getting the resources that they need

3013
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:41,600
and helping in their healing. So,

3014
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:44,120
that's what that looks like.

3015
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:47,280
And my name is Estreya. I'm a full-time

3016
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:49,800
victim advocate here. Um

3017
01:47:49,800 --> 01:47:52,640
VOCA funded and um this is just a little

3018
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:56,560
bit of what what we do. So, um we assist

3019
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:57,920
with writing protective orders and

3020
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:00,480
stalking injunctions. We can help um

3021
01:48:00,480 --> 01:48:03,280
safety planning, um transporting victims

3022
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:06,560
to the shelter, um can also help with

3023
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:08,760
mental health support, um like therapy

3024
01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:11,440
or crisis support, um

3025
01:48:11,440 --> 01:48:13,680
and just community resources like

3026
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:17,719
housing or like food assistance. Uh we

3027
01:48:17,719 --> 01:48:19,480
help educate victims about the court

3028
01:48:19,480 --> 01:48:21,480
criminal justice process

3029
01:48:21,480 --> 01:48:23,600
and we accompany them. We're a court

3030
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:27,520
advocate. Um also accompanies them to

3031
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:31,640
court um and we sit in in detective

3032
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:34,719
interviews. Um we like to obtain victim

3033
01:48:34,719 --> 01:48:37,000
input for prosecutors, uh death

3034
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:39,200
notification, community outreach at

3035
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:43,040
schools, um tabling at just local

3036
01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:44,640
organizations.

3037
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:45,880
Um

3038
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:47,320
and yeah.

3039
01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:49,520
It's just a little bit about what we do.

3040
01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:52,200
Um here are 2025 statistics for the

3041
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:55,840
calendar year. So, we served 1,558

3042
01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:58,000
victims, majority of them being domestic

3043
01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:01,520
violence. Um so, 546 DV or family

3044
01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:04,280
violence, 206 for adult sexual assault,

3045
01:49:04,280 --> 01:49:07,760
184 for child sexual assault, uh 123 for

3046
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:10,040
child abuse, 374 for stalking and

3047
01:49:10,040 --> 01:49:12,920
harassment, and 183 for adult physical

3048
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:15,080
assault. And out of those victims, we

3049
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:24,270
provided 9,015 services.

3050
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:29,590
Yeah.

3051
01:49:29,600 --> 01:49:32,000
I found the statistics slide.

3052
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:33,640
Uh Australia or Kimberly, could you just

3053
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:36,640
give us a feel for

3054
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:37,840
the

3055
01:49:37,840 --> 01:49:40,400
comparisons to 2024. What's up, what's

3056
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:43,120
down, where are your areas of focus or

3057
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:44,720
concern?

3058
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:47,320
Um overall, it's pretty consistent.

3059
01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:47,680
Okay.

3060
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:51,480
>> Um the we haven't seen a a huge change

3061
01:49:51,480 --> 01:49:53,440
in the calendar year.

3062
01:49:53,440 --> 01:49:55,960
We always have quarters that for some

3063
01:49:55,960 --> 01:49:59,680
reason, there are spikes of specific um

3064
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:03,000
victimizations. But overall for the 12

3065
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:04,440
months,

3066
01:50:04,440 --> 01:50:08,910
they remain pretty much the same.

3067
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:11,280
Some years will be a little bit less or

3068
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:14,200
a little bit more, but it's not usually

3069
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:17,040
a huge jump.

3070
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:18,640
Trends that you're seeing necessarily.

3071
01:50:18,640 --> 01:50:21,800
Not um not really Well, one of the one

3072
01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:23,720
of the things that we are seeing a lot

3073
01:50:23,720 --> 01:50:25,360
more of are

3074
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:28,600
uh child victims that are connected to

3075
01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:29,400
um

3076
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:32,000
child sex crimes on like on the

3077
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:33,160
internet.

3078
01:50:33,160 --> 01:50:36,120
And so, we don't always interact with

3079
01:50:36,120 --> 01:50:39,760
them, but it when the need arises and

3080
01:50:39,760 --> 01:50:42,200
um we need to support a family or an

3081
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:44,840
individual, um those those have

3082
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:47,360
definitely increased because the the

3083
01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:50,800
tools for our detectives are a lot

3084
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:53,720
better. And so, we're able to identify a

3085
01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:55,640
lot more of those victims than we used

3086
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:56,880
to be able to.

3087
01:50:56,880 --> 01:50:59,640
So, that is one number that has probably

3088
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:02,560
gone up a lot.

3089
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:03,560
But you're not you're saying not

3090
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:05,480
necessarily how many it's happening to,

3091
01:51:05,480 --> 01:51:07,760
how many we actually catch.

3092
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:09,840
Or do you think it's going up, both?

3093
01:51:09,840 --> 01:51:14,160
Uh yeah, I think I think it's been an we know it's been an issue for a really

3094
01:51:14,160 --> 01:51:18,400
long time. But being able to detect them

3095
01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:20,600
and and then

3096
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:23,680
locate them, even in the past, even if

3097
01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:25,920
we knew it was happening, being able to

3098
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:29,800
actually trace it back to a suspect and

3099
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:31,480
a victim

3100
01:51:31,480 --> 01:51:32,760
was

3101
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:34,760
really complicated. And so, we've had a

3102
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:37,480
lot more success with seeing those

3103
01:51:37,480 --> 01:51:40,200
through, and especially cases that

3104
01:51:40,200 --> 01:51:42,320
happened here in Provo.

3105
01:51:42,320 --> 01:51:44,480
It's unfortunately it happens quite a

3106
01:51:44,480 --> 01:51:45,480
bit.

3107
01:51:45,480 --> 01:51:50,800
And so, working with the suspects as well as

3108
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:53,320
because sometimes it's as the members

3109
01:51:53,320 --> 01:51:55,960
the family members of the suspect, they

3110
01:51:55,960 --> 01:51:58,480
are incredibly traumatized by those by

3111
01:51:58,480 --> 01:52:00,960
learning of those situations, too.

3112
01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:03,160
And so, sometimes we'll provide support

3113
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:06,320
for them, but it's mostly um the the

3114
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:08,720
families of the child victims when they

3115
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:11,320
are located in Utah and especially in

3116
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:12,880
Provo.

3117
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:14,880
It's horrible. But I'm so glad that

3118
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:16,280
we're able to

3119
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:18,160
It's just it's a it's horrible as it is

3120
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:19,520
to know, it's so important for people to

3121
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:21,440
recognize it and know it's happening.

3122
01:52:21,440 --> 01:52:22,360
Yeah.

3123
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:25,200
I was talking to an war councilor, they

3124
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,520
talked about how there were some

3125
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:28,480
Yes.

3126
01:52:28,480 --> 01:52:31,000
Massage therapy places that are sex

3127
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:33,000
trafficking sites or

3128
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:34,480
And it was I was telling this group at

3129
01:52:34,480 --> 01:52:36,320
my gym, and guess what? There's a

3130
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:37,360
company that I know that does that. And

3131
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:38,880
I was like, how was that allowed? And

3132
01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:41,040
then and then someone would like let's

3133
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:42,600
slide some conspiracy theory and I'm

3134
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:44,280
like, that's true.

3135
01:52:44,280 --> 01:52:45,120
Oh, okay.

3136
01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:46,840
I think I'm just saying that.

3137
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:48,280
It These things are hard to admit, but

3138
01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:49,520
it's important that we know them and

3139
01:52:49,520 --> 01:52:51,360
acknowledge them so we can help people

3140
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:53,280
or be aware and we can stop them. We

3141
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:56,040
have had a couple of trafficking victims

3142
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:58,920
specifically from businesses like that.

3143
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:02,440
They're they're not um our community is

3144
01:53:02,440 --> 01:53:05,440
not affected as severely as traffic by

3145
01:53:05,440 --> 01:53:08,480
trafficking as you see in a really large

3146
01:53:08,480 --> 01:53:11,200
metropolitan area, but it definitely

3147
01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:13,560
happens, unfortunately. And so, we we

3148
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:17,880
have had specific training um and

3149
01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:20,000
learned about resources that are

3150
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:21,960
available specifically for traffic

3151
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:24,040
trafficking victims because they they

3152
01:53:24,040 --> 01:53:26,360
are different. They're the resources and

3153
01:53:26,360 --> 01:53:27,560
their rights.

3154
01:53:27,560 --> 01:53:28,280
Interesting.

3155
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:30,560
>> So. All right. Council Whitlock.

3156
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:32,400
Thank you so much for serving our

3157
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:34,080
community. Um

3158
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:35,560
you know, it's as we've been talking,

3159
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:36,400
it's

3160
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:37,960
sad that we need this, but it's clearly

3161
01:53:37,960 --> 01:53:39,240
is needed. I'm so grateful for your

3162
01:53:39,240 --> 01:53:40,400
service.

3163
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:42,640
Um a couple questions I have is so we

3164
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:44,160
have you said we have two

3165
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:46,320
Spanish-speaking employees. Mhm.

3166
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:49,880
Do we ever uh have the need to serve uh

3167
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:51,640
people in other languages that we're not

3168
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:53,120
able to support?

3169
01:53:53,120 --> 01:53:55,600
Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, often I think

3170
01:53:55,600 --> 01:53:59,960
Portuguese is a big one here. Um but

3171
01:53:59,960 --> 01:54:03,280
yeah, we do have victims that

3172
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:05,200
speak a lot of different languages and

3173
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:06,880
luckily our department does have like

3174
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:09,240
language link. Um

3175
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:11,080
and yeah, so we're able to support them

3176
01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:13,280
that way, but seems like Portuguese,

3177
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:15,440
besides Spanish, Portuguese is the next

3178
01:54:15,440 --> 01:54:16,560
language that's

3179
01:54:16,560 --> 01:54:18,760
>> We have a lot of officers that speak a

3180
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:22,760
wide variety of languages. And so, um in

3181
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:24,600
case of an interview or something like

3182
01:54:24,600 --> 01:54:26,920
that, we will make arrangements for a

3183
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:29,200
police department employee to assist

3184
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:31,560
with that. When that is absolutely not

3185
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:33,520
available, um

3186
01:54:33,520 --> 01:54:35,640
a lot of resources are available to us

3187
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:37,200
from BYU.

3188
01:54:37,200 --> 01:54:39,080
But it's just we prefer to stay within

3189
01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:40,960
the police department if we can because

3190
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:43,560
they are educated in the subject matter

3191
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:45,560
that these individuals might be speaking

3192
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:50,560
about. We recently had um an ASL um

3193
01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:53,200
victim, and we do have a a police

3194
01:54:53,200 --> 01:54:56,560
officer that is trained in American Sign

3195
01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:58,440
That's great.

3196
01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:00,040
Any other questions?

3197
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:04,080
All right, thanks, guys. Thank you.

3198
01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:05,600
Next is ordinance an ordinance

3199
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:07,520
prohibiting virtual currency kiosks

3200
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:10,000
within Provo City. This is presented by

3201
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:18,470
our own Melia Daily.

3202
01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:20,560
Thank you, councilors.

3203
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:23,800
Although super quick, there is a memo in

3204
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:25,760
the packet and then the slides are just

3205
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:28,360
summarizing the memo. So,

3206
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:30,320
unless we have questions,

3207
01:55:30,320 --> 01:55:33,080
I'm just going to jump ahead.

3208
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:35,320
Cryptocurrency ATMs are exactly what

3209
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:36,640
they sound like,

3210
01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:39,480
an ATM for cryptocurrency, but you use

3211
01:55:39,480 --> 01:55:41,120
cash instead of connecting to your bank

3212
01:55:41,120 --> 01:55:44,120
account. So, it's cash only.

3213
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:46,160
And there

3214
01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:49,640
is a notable amount of scam and fraud

3215
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:52,080
in Utah related to

3216
01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:55,680
cryptocurrency ATMs. This was a council

3217
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:57,440
issue sponsor request from councilors

3218
01:55:57,440 --> 01:55:59,200
McCane and Christensen.

3219
01:55:59,200 --> 01:56:01,360
And they are requesting

3220
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:04,400
for a proposed ordinance to

3221
01:56:04,400 --> 01:56:06,280
essentially ban

3222
01:56:06,280 --> 01:56:08,920
Um I believe the exact language is to

3223
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:12,270
ban

3224
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:14,520
to it's unlawful for person or entity to

3225
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:16,800
host, allow, operate, permit, or locate

3226
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:19,600
or place a virtual currency kiosk within

3227
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:21,720
Provo City. So, these are the

3228
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:23,400
definitions that would be adopted as

3229
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:25,560
part of that code here, just defining

3230
01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:28,040
virtual currency and the kiosk

3231
01:56:28,040 --> 01:56:30,240
and an operator. And then here's the

3232
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:32,520
actual sections of what would become

3233
01:56:32,520 --> 01:56:35,560
unlawful and the penalties for that. It

3234
01:56:35,560 --> 01:56:37,560
would be part of the new section. We

3235
01:56:37,560 --> 01:56:40,160
have a section of code in 9.14

3236
01:56:40,160 --> 01:56:43,440
miscellaneous criminal provisions.

3237
01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:45,400
And it would become another section

3238
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,000
within that chapter of code. Okay.

3239
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:50,440
Councilor Brogdon.

3240
01:56:50,440 --> 01:56:51,680
Do we know how this relates to like

3241
01:56:51,680 --> 01:56:54,520
Western Union scams?

3242
01:56:54,520 --> 01:56:57,160
I don't know. No. Like do you mean like

3243
01:56:57,160 --> 01:56:58,280
the

3244
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:01,480
in-person like money transfer?

3245
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:03,640
This isn't going to be that. This won't

3246
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:05,320
be related This doesn't have anything to

3247
01:57:05,320 --> 01:57:06,840
do with that. This is just banning

3248
01:57:06,840 --> 01:57:08,560
cryptocurrency. It it kind of does

3249
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:09,680
because I mean people are getting

3250
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:11,120
scammed with those Western Union things

3251
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:13,720
all the time. That's why you see the

3252
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:15,600
do not transfer money to people that you

3253
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:16,440
do not know.

3254
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:18,400
>> saying that this wouldn't affect that.

3255
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:20,800
Well, what I'm saying is I'm not for

3256
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:24,870
this and um

3257
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,200
to me, if I were into cryptocurrency, I

3258
01:57:27,200 --> 01:57:32,040
would much rather cuz it said that the fraud is

3259
01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:33,560
much higher

3260
01:57:33,560 --> 01:57:35,640
when it's tied to a an account than it

3261
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:37,600
is with the cash transaction. If I

3262
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:39,719
wanted to buy Bitcoin, I would much

3263
01:57:39,719 --> 01:57:41,640
rather go in some place and purchase it

3264
01:57:41,640 --> 01:57:43,840
with cash than have it tied to my bank

3265
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:45,280
account online.

3266
01:57:45,280 --> 01:57:47,840
And I don't feel like it's my job to

3267
01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:51,680
police adults. I feel like they should

3268
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:53,360
have if they want to buy Bitcoin, they

3269
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:55,840
should be able to do that. But if we're

3270
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,280
looking at the scam, there's scams with

3271
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:00,520
Western Union as well. And instead of

3272
01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:02,520
banning all Western Union transaction

3273
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:04,520
places within the city,

3274
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,840
um you see warning signs.

3275
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:09,640
It's more a percentage of what like this

3276
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:11,920
is mostly used for scams versus Western

3277
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:14,400
Union's not mostly used for scams.

3278
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:16,640
But there's still probably a very high

3279
01:58:16,640 --> 01:58:18,000
percentage of people that are getting

3280
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:20,440
scammed at a Western Union. So, to me,

3281
01:58:20,440 --> 01:58:21,840
this is

3282
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:23,880
this isn't something that I'm going to

3283
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:25,640
vote yes on. I'm going to vote no on

3284
01:58:25,640 --> 01:58:26,680
this.

3285
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:28,680
For those reasons, I think people have

3286
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:30,840
choice and you're an adult and you have

3287
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:33,640
that choice and you have that right. And

3288
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:36,160
I know that I've had people come to my

3289
01:58:36,160 --> 01:58:38,040
home that are into this Bitcoin stuff

3290
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:38,960
and

3291
01:58:38,960 --> 01:58:40,520
all of them are power to them.

3292
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:42,120
But if it were me, I would much rather

3293
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:44,160
have the cash transaction where I know

3294
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:45,560
that

3295
01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:47,480
it's this amount of money than my bank

3296
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:49,080
account tied to

3297
01:58:49,080 --> 01:58:50,920
something and I think they should be

3298
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:55,642
able to have that opportunity.

3299
01:58:55,652 --> 01:58:56,880
» [clears throat]

3300
01:58:56,880 --> 01:58:59,600
>> Malia, you said the um

3301
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:02,719
in your notes, Layton recently banned uh

3302
01:59:02,719 --> 01:59:05,400
Bitcoin ATMs. Are they the only ones you

3303
01:59:05,400 --> 01:59:07,240
know of? I mean, is it likely that Provo

3304
01:59:07,240 --> 01:59:09,080
residents looking to

3305
01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:11,360
use a Bitcoin kiosk would just travel to

3306
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:13,280
Orem or Springville?

3307
01:59:13,280 --> 01:59:15,640
Yeah, it's Layton City is the only city

3308
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:18,520
in Utah that has banned it. Um there is

3309
01:59:18,520 --> 01:59:21,840
Indiana is a statewide ban on currency

3310
01:59:21,840 --> 01:59:23,680
kiosks in the whole state. They're

3311
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:25,840
illegal. There's other states where the

3312
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:28,120
same legislation has been introduced.

3313
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:30,320
But as far as in Utah, Layton City is

3314
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:31,840
the only other city. This does not

3315
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:35,040
prohibit people to use their own laptop,

3316
01:59:35,040 --> 01:59:38,120
their own cell phone. Like any of that

3317
01:59:38,120 --> 01:59:39,960
they can do. This is just the actual

3318
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:41,560
kiosks

3319
01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:44,360
operating within a business. The kiosk

3320
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:45,200
would not be allowed.

3321
01:59:45,200 --> 01:59:47,240
>> And then your numbers, the one chart

3322
01:59:47,240 --> 01:59:50,040
that you have Yes. 389 million in

3323
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:52,160
losses. That's cumulative in the state

3324
01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:54,840
of Utah, right? That is nationwide in

3325
01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:58,000
2025. I'm sorry? That is nationwide in

3326
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:04,560
2025. So that's from a 2025 FBI report that they

3327
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:08,080
said in 2025 389

3328
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:09,600
Can we move to that slide? The next

3329
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:11,680
chart shows

3330
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:12,680
right there.

3331
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:16,000
So 389 nationwide in 2025.

3332
02:00:16,000 --> 02:00:19,240
The next chart shows 107 million in Utah

3333
02:00:19,240 --> 02:00:20,960
in 2025.

3334
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:25,280
We don't have Elizabeth We're ranked 24.

3335
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:28,080
26,000 Yeah, okay. That is in the

3336
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:29,880
internet crime report. So the Utah ones

3337
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:31,840
are ranked over I think 4 years where

3338
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:34,040
that report is just over one year. So

3339
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:35,760
that is a nuance I didn't place in the

3340
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:37,920
report, but yes.

3341
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:40,080
Thank you.

3342
02:00:40,080 --> 02:00:41,840
Councilor Open

3343
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:43,760
Uh so just generally, I think because I

3344
02:00:43,760 --> 02:00:46,360
work in banking technology,

3345
02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:47,920
um

3346
02:00:47,920 --> 02:00:49,840
you'd have similar charts for wire

3347
02:00:49,840 --> 02:00:52,720
transfers, money transfers,

3348
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:56,000
um a lot of things. I mean, cash itself

3349
02:00:56,000 --> 02:00:57,560
is the biggest

3350
02:00:57,560 --> 02:00:59,720
medium for fraud. Yeah,

3351
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:03,600
just cards. I mean, just generally

3352
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:06,280
I I think crypto has a bad name cuz it's

3353
02:01:06,280 --> 02:01:09,040
one of the newer forms of, you know,

3354
02:01:09,040 --> 02:01:11,320
digital currency, newest way to

3355
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:13,440
transact. And so

3356
02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:16,160
and there is a history of

3357
02:01:16,160 --> 02:01:18,560
criminal use of it, but there is as well

3358
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:20,680
with the dollar and whatever. But

3359
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:25,200
generally, I I agree with Becky that

3360
02:01:25,200 --> 02:01:27,200
I don't feel like what you're doing is

3361
02:01:27,200 --> 02:01:29,240
taking away for people to transact. The

3362
02:01:29,240 --> 02:01:32,120
vast majority of transactions that occur

3363
02:01:32,120 --> 02:01:33,960
via cryptocurrency are not related to

3364
02:01:33,960 --> 02:01:36,880
fraud. They are actual transactions. In

3365
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:39,680
these with these with these things?

3366
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,040
I've used them, and it wasn't for fraud,

3367
02:01:42,040 --> 02:01:44,040
but I guess I'm probably not your

3368
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:47,440
average Joe. I get that. Um my parents

3369
02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:49,400
lost have lost money through Zelle,

3370
02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:50,960
right? Through their Wells Fargo. I

3371
02:01:50,960 --> 02:01:53,800
mean, I'm just saying generally

3372
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:56,040
anywhere anytime there's money involved,

3373
02:01:56,040 --> 02:01:58,120
there's potential for fraud, and I don't

3374
02:01:58,120 --> 02:01:59,960
necessarily view

3375
02:01:59,960 --> 02:02:05,360
cryptocurrency kiosks as the perpetuator as fraud. I would have to

3376
02:02:05,360 --> 02:02:07,960
see the actual, you know, statistics on

3377
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:09,960
it, but generally

3378
02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:13,960
I just I'm more I'm more um

3379
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:16,920
open to cryptocurrencies just generally

3380
02:02:16,920 --> 02:02:18,920
because it's it's a, you know, something

3381
02:02:18,920 --> 02:02:21,000
that I'm personally interested in. So

3382
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:22,680
I'm not supportive of banning them. I

3383
02:02:22,680 --> 02:02:24,960
think it it takes away

3384
02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:28,320
for the underserved under unbanked. It

3385
02:02:28,320 --> 02:02:29,440
takes away an option for them to

3386
02:02:29,440 --> 02:02:34,160
transact. So it is You are taking away

3387
02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:36,360
uh a way for people to transact that

3388
02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:37,920
currently they have a way to transact if

3389
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:39,280
they perhaps are unbanked or

3390
02:02:39,280 --> 02:02:40,560
underbanked.

3391
02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:42,760
So just generally, I'm not I don't have

3392
02:02:42,760 --> 02:02:44,040
the same

3393
02:02:44,040 --> 02:02:46,440
hesitations with them. I've used them,

3394
02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:48,120
so I'm just probably more comfortable

3395
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:50,680
than most. And I also am exposed maybe

3396
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:56,160
to cryptocurrencies more broadly than probably the general population. So

3397
02:02:56,160 --> 02:02:57,960
just I have a different perception of

3398
02:02:57,960 --> 02:03:01,280
them. But um so yeah, I'm I'm a no on it

3399
02:03:01,280 --> 02:03:02,440
as well.

3400
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:03,960
I mean, there's only six. It's not like

3401
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:05,560
it's going to be a make or break, and

3402
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:07,200
you you can go to the up by the Orem

3403
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:08,880
Mall or you know, every smoke shop in

3404
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:11,200
town has a cryptocurrencies

3405
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:13,280
uh Bitcoin ATM or whatever. So there's

3406
02:03:13,280 --> 02:03:14,880
other ways they can take a 10 or

3407
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,440
15-minute drive. I So I guess in that

3408
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:18,680
sense, I don't think we're changing

3409
02:03:18,680 --> 02:03:20,760
anything really, but

3410
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:22,600
it's also not a make or break, but I I'm

3411
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:24,480
not supportive of it.

3412
02:03:24,480 --> 02:03:25,920
Councilor Whitlock

3413
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:27,600
I have a um

3414
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:30,755
an odd question. If if they turn

3415
02:03:30,755 --> 02:03:31,120
>> [laughter]

3416
02:03:31,120 --> 02:03:33,320
>> So given the way that this

3417
02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:35,320
ordinance language reads, would this

3418
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,040
also ban ban like

3419
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:38,960
um

3420
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:41,320
arcade digital currencies? Like when you

3421
02:03:41,320 --> 02:03:43,400
kind of load a cash onto a little arcade

3422
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,200
card?

3423
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:48,640
Those are already largely banned because

3424
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:50,120
Well, they they We have them all over at

3425
02:03:50,120 --> 02:03:51,960
Play Joy and

3426
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:55,120
Zaxby's Zaxby's A lot of those Oh, I see

3427
02:03:55,120 --> 02:03:56,800
what you're saying. Because a lot of the

3428
02:03:56,800 --> 02:03:57,520
I thought you were talking about the

3429
02:03:57,520 --> 02:03:59,000
gambling ones. A lot of those

3430
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:01,240
>> about like arcade. Like I go put $20 on

3431
02:04:01,240 --> 02:04:02,240
a card, and then I go spend it around

3432
02:04:02,240 --> 02:04:06,870
the arcade.

3433
02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:08,480
Well, I don't think so. I don't think I

3434
02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:10,520
think those are used as a medium of

3435
02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:11,760
exchange. You can't use them anywhere

3436
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:13,560
outside of that. Yeah, maybe not

3437
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:15,080
generally accessible to the public as

3438
02:04:15,080 --> 02:04:17,840
well, but

3439
02:04:17,840 --> 02:04:19,640
I don't think

3440
02:04:19,640 --> 02:04:22,160
I I guess first of all

3441
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:23,800
I'm pretty confident that the inner

3442
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:26,000
discretion of both police department and

3443
02:04:26,000 --> 02:04:27,520
legal department, we wouldn't interpret

3444
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:29,080
it that way even if it was subject to

3445
02:04:29,080 --> 02:04:31,160
being interpreted that way.

3446
02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:32,760
Okay. Okay. But I

3447
02:04:32,760 --> 02:04:35,480
uh but I don't think so.

3448
02:04:35,480 --> 02:04:37,760
It's certainly something that we could

3449
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:39,520
uh workshop language if that's a

3450
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:41,760
concern.

3451
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:43,160
Okay. Yeah, I just want to make sure we

3452
02:04:43,160 --> 02:04:44,800
don't accidentally make those illegal.

3453
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:45,680
Um

3454
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:47,391
I've been a bit conflicted about

3455
02:04:47,391 --> 02:04:48,400
[clears throat] this one because

3456
02:04:48,400 --> 02:04:49,720
initially

3457
02:04:49,720 --> 02:04:52,160
um I had very similar inclinations to

3458
02:04:52,160 --> 02:04:56,000
Councilor Bogdan. I'm just like adults, not sure we want to

3459
02:04:56,000 --> 02:04:57,000
um

3460
02:04:57,000 --> 02:04:58,760
you know, want to stick our hands in

3461
02:04:58,760 --> 02:05:01,840
this, but um

3462
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:03,560
it is real when it comes to the fraud.

3463
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:04,800
Like I just as I've done a lot of

3464
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:06,360
research, and it seems to be like the

3465
02:05:06,360 --> 02:05:08,320
most frictionless way to steal someone's

3466
02:05:08,320 --> 02:05:10,960
money. Like if I go like for example, if

3467
02:05:10,960 --> 02:05:13,000
someone if I'm if I'm just coming to a

3468
02:05:13,000 --> 02:05:15,440
fraud classic kind of my grandpa just

3469
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:16,800
come to one of these where you kind of

3470
02:05:16,800 --> 02:05:18,560
someone grooms you through some email

3471
02:05:18,560 --> 02:05:19,800
exchange, and they need some help, and

3472
02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:21,240
they promise something. Like if they're

3473
02:05:21,240 --> 02:05:22,480
like, "Wire me the money." You go to a

3474
02:05:22,480 --> 02:05:23,360
bank, and the teller's like, "Are you

3475
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:25,840
sure you want to wire the money?" If you

3476
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:27,880
go to, you know, if even Western Union

3477
02:05:27,880 --> 02:05:29,360
at the bank, someone's going to say

3478
02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:30,320
like, "Are you sure you want to do

3479
02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:32,600
this?" Um if you do it online, like I've

3480
02:05:32,600 --> 02:05:34,360
sent I served my mission in West Africa,

3481
02:05:34,360 --> 02:05:36,520
so I'll occasionally West uh

3482
02:05:36,520 --> 02:05:37,800
I'll occasionally send money through

3483
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:39,560
Western Union or MoneyGram, and like

3484
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:42,200
even in their like digital checkouts,

3485
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:44,760
you have to like five times say, "I know

3486
02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:46,200
the person personally and met this

3487
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:49,040
person before I'll send the money." Um

3488
02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:50,600
whereas like this I just think it's

3489
02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:52,120
probably the most frictionless way to

3490
02:05:52,120 --> 02:05:55,240
send uh $1,000 or $2,000 to someone in

3491
02:05:55,240 --> 02:05:57,680
Nigeria. Sorry for the Nigerians in my

3492
02:05:57,680 --> 02:05:59,480
life.

3493
02:05:59,480 --> 02:06:03,280
Maybe an unfair stereotype, but yeah, so I think there is, and I

3494
02:06:03,280 --> 02:06:04,720
think that like

3495
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:06,160
you know, the elderly in our population

3496
02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:08,360
are definitely a bit more susceptible to

3497
02:06:08,360 --> 02:06:10,120
this. So I am conflicted, but I do think

3498
02:06:10,120 --> 02:06:11,760
there's like a pretty strong public

3499
02:06:11,760 --> 02:06:12,920
policy

3500
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:14,840
rationale potentially for this. So

3501
02:06:14,840 --> 02:06:17,680
anyway, just some thoughts.

3502
02:06:17,680 --> 02:06:19,280
Councilor Whipple

3503
02:06:19,280 --> 02:06:24,680
So is there any kind of of data on

3504
02:06:24,680 --> 02:06:27,520
increasing time or friction decreases

3505
02:06:27,520 --> 02:06:31,200
the amount of fraud? Like giving people

3506
02:06:31,200 --> 02:06:33,400
a chance to think it over for a second

3507
02:06:33,400 --> 02:06:36,000
cuz a lot of these work on urgency.

3508
02:06:36,000 --> 02:06:37,520
And this false sense of urgency, you

3509
02:06:37,520 --> 02:06:39,400
have to do this right now.

3510
02:06:39,400 --> 02:06:42,120
And if they had to leave the station in

3511
02:06:42,120 --> 02:06:44,840
those days. Yeah, and so if you had to

3512
02:06:44,840 --> 02:06:47,840
drive 15 minutes, would that actually

3513
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:50,120
change the likelihood that somebody

3514
02:06:50,120 --> 02:06:52,920
would follow through and and get the

3515
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:55,830
money?

3516
02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:57,400
I don't

3517
02:06:57,400 --> 02:06:59,680
know. I mean, I can look it up though,

3518
02:06:59,680 --> 02:07:01,640
and I'll get back to you.

3519
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:05,840
Because that I think that would be the real question, right? If this is

3520
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:10,160
actually effective at saving some of our residents.

3521
02:07:10,160 --> 02:07:11,120
Because in the time that they're

3522
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:12,960
driving, maybe they call their daughter

3523
02:07:12,960 --> 02:07:14,280
or something and say, "Hey, I'm going to

3524
02:07:14,280 --> 02:07:16,077
go do this."

3525
02:07:16,077 --> 02:07:16,720
>> [laughter]

3526
02:07:16,720 --> 02:07:18,440
>> My my friend did it. Had to go buy gift

3527
02:07:18,440 --> 02:07:21,160
cards at Target. And

3528
02:07:21,160 --> 02:07:22,600
she been on the phone like an hour with

3529
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:24,200
this person, and finally went to buy the

3530
02:07:24,200 --> 02:07:25,680
gift cards, and then her husband called

3531
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:26,960
through, and she had to say, "Hey,

3532
02:07:26,960 --> 02:07:28,880
he was like, "Hang up now. Do not do

3533
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:30,488
this. What are you doing?"

3534
02:07:30,488 --> 02:07:30,640
>> [laughter]

3535
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:33,120
>> And then someone else was doing it, and

3536
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:35,160
they they'd been on the phone an hour

3537
02:07:35,160 --> 02:07:36,040
and

3538
02:07:36,040 --> 02:07:39,160
an half with a sheriff from

3539
02:07:39,160 --> 02:07:40,719
Summit County

3540
02:07:40,719 --> 02:07:42,080
who was who's going to be put in jail

3541
02:07:42,080 --> 02:07:43,560
because they had

3542
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:45,000
ignored a jury summons. And they need I

3543
02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:46,640
mean, like it's crazy the stuff that

3544
02:07:46,640 --> 02:07:48,280
goes on. The mayor keeps asking me for

3545
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:49,800
gift cards.

3546
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:51,000
I'll get them to you. Don't worry.

3547
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:53,040
Sorry. I know I know there's a lot of

3548
02:07:53,040 --> 02:07:55,600
urgency around it.

3549
02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:58,320
But it is it is wild.

3550
02:07:58,320 --> 02:07:59,963
And these are people that I consider

3551
02:07:59,963 --> 02:08:00,160
>> [laughter]

3552
02:08:00,160 --> 02:08:01,680
>> to be people. And I'm like and they tell

3553
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:02,719
me stories. I'm like, "He fell for

3554
02:08:02,719 --> 02:08:04,200
that?" And they're like, "I just tell

3555
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:05,440
you, I looked him up online, and he was

3556
02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:07,719
the sheriff of Summit County."

3557
02:08:07,719 --> 02:08:09,400
Yeah. But they're not calling you. And

3558
02:08:09,400 --> 02:08:11,400
there is good data that as as people get

3559
02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:13,680
older, even if they remain competent in

3560
02:08:13,680 --> 02:08:16,360
many areas, they lose a certain

3561
02:08:16,360 --> 02:08:18,360
skepticism or competency with regard to

3562
02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:19,920
financial matters.

3563
02:08:19,920 --> 02:08:23,200
And so our seniors are much more likely

3564
02:08:23,200 --> 02:08:24,719
to fall prey to these scams. Like we run

3565
02:08:24,719 --> 02:08:26,800
into this all the time with, you know,

3566
02:08:26,800 --> 02:08:28,560
estates and conservatorships and things

3567
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:29,800
like that.

3568
02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:32,440
So I would want to know that this

3569
02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:34,840
actually like creating this little tiny

3570
02:08:34,840 --> 02:08:38,840
bit of friction would be beneficial.

3571
02:08:38,840 --> 02:08:40,760
I did get a number of responses from my

3572
02:08:40,760 --> 02:08:43,000
newsletter that all wanted it. And they

3573
02:08:43,000 --> 02:08:46,120
were They were all elderly. And and then

3574
02:08:46,120 --> 02:08:47,600
a couple young people who said they'd

3575
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:49,360
helped their parents or elderly neighbor

3576
02:08:49,360 --> 02:08:50,640
with their finances, and they'd lost One

3577
02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:53,160
person lost $250,000.

3578
02:08:53,160 --> 02:08:55,120
But that wasn't a Bitcoin ATM, I'm sure.

3579
02:08:55,120 --> 02:08:56,560
It was just a scam. It was just about a

3580
02:08:56,560 --> 02:08:58,520
scam. But like I was just like, "Wow,

3581
02:08:58,520 --> 02:09:00,720
like I don't know. It's unfortunate This

3582
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:03,520
is not any means helping with all scams

3583
02:09:03,520 --> 02:09:05,840
or it I'm sure it is an incremental

3584
02:09:05,840 --> 02:09:07,520
amount. But, maybe it's worth it for

3585
02:09:07,520 --> 02:09:11,670
those families.

3586
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:13,280
Anyway, we're looking for a motion

3587
02:09:13,280 --> 02:09:15,240
today. If we have a majority motion,

3588
02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:18,680
it'll come back to a night meeting.

3589
02:09:18,680 --> 02:09:20,320
for adoption.

3590
02:09:20,320 --> 02:09:22,080
Was that the main

3591
02:09:22,080 --> 02:09:24,240
impetus Katrice

3592
02:09:24,240 --> 02:09:26,920
residents coming to you inquiring about

3593
02:09:26,920 --> 02:09:28,160
>> Well, we got that email about it and

3594
02:09:28,160 --> 02:09:29,200
then I had those two friends that it

3595
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:30,760
happened to. So, it was just kind of

3596
02:09:30,760 --> 02:09:33,720
like, "Well, if it can help anything."

3597
02:09:33,720 --> 02:09:36,480
And in my research, Bitcoin was the most

3598
02:09:36,480 --> 02:09:38,920
associated with

3599
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:40,640
that. Councilor Holben, can I ask what

3600
02:09:40,640 --> 02:09:42,240
your um

3601
02:09:42,240 --> 02:09:44,320
uh like what your if you're willing to

3602
02:09:44,320 --> 02:09:46,040
share what your use case is for the ATMs

3603
02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,120
cuz I as I was doing research on this,

3604
02:09:48,120 --> 02:09:48,960
like I

3605
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:51,240
I've two people I'm close with who are

3606
02:09:51,240 --> 02:09:52,520
at the Bitcoin conference actually

3607
02:09:52,520 --> 02:09:55,040
happening right now in lots of ideas. Um

3608
02:09:55,040 --> 02:09:56,440
who are really into cryptocurrencies. I

3609
02:09:56,440 --> 02:09:57,720
also am relatively into

3610
02:09:57,720 --> 02:09:58,560
cryptocurrencies.

3611
02:09:58,560 --> 02:10:00,160
>> Primarily, it's the unbanked or

3612
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:01,320
underbanked Okay.

3613
02:10:01,320 --> 02:10:03,000
>> who use them. People who don't have

3614
02:10:03,000 --> 02:10:04,720
access to digital trading platforms.

3615
02:10:04,720 --> 02:10:06,160
>> They don't have access to a traditional

3616
02:10:06,160 --> 02:10:09,200
bank account. And so, they utilize the

3617
02:10:09,200 --> 02:10:11,600
crypto ATMs like a traditional ATM,

3618
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:15,080
right? To put money into their account or take

3619
02:10:15,080 --> 02:10:16,560
it out of their account. They're cash

3620
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:18,560
heavy. Maybe they they're migrant

3621
02:10:18,560 --> 02:10:20,320
workers or something like that. And

3622
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:22,880
they're using the the crypto ATMs.

3623
02:10:22,880 --> 02:10:24,960
>> As like a store of value, so they Well,

3624
02:10:24,960 --> 02:10:28,280
so Yeah, so let's say they aren't

3625
02:10:28,280 --> 02:10:30,720
perhaps they're migrant worker and so,

3626
02:10:30,720 --> 02:10:33,480
they're not necessarily They're the

3627
02:10:33,480 --> 02:10:35,240
underbanked or unbanked community.

3628
02:10:35,240 --> 02:10:37,280
Generally, they look for alternative

3629
02:10:37,280 --> 02:10:39,640
means. So, they use the money MoneyGram

3630
02:10:39,640 --> 02:10:41,480
or or whatever a lot or they use the

3631
02:10:41,480 --> 02:10:44,320
check cashing places a lot. Um and

3632
02:10:44,320 --> 02:10:46,800
crypto ATMs are kind of their ATM as

3633
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:50,000
well. So, that's the primary use case

3634
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:52,360
outside of crime.

3635
02:10:52,360 --> 02:10:53,600
Right.

3636
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:55,080
Um so, yeah.

3637
02:10:55,080 --> 02:10:57,920
Unbanked or underbanked.

3638
02:10:57,920 --> 02:10:59,640
Are those here in Provo?

3639
02:10:59,640 --> 02:11:01,600
You see a lot of people paying cash at

3640
02:11:01,600 --> 02:11:03,960
Sam's Club and

3641
02:11:03,960 --> 02:11:06,040
Here's a community base that deals in

3642
02:11:06,040 --> 02:11:08,630
cash.

3643
02:11:08,640 --> 02:11:11,200
And like I said, I'm I'm not I don't

3644
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:12,240
like

3645
02:11:12,240 --> 02:11:14,000
I don't I I won't even use my ATM card.

3646
02:11:14,000 --> 02:11:15,680
I will use a credit card and pay it off

3647
02:11:15,680 --> 02:11:18,440
because I don't want my I share my bank

3648
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:18,760
account.

3649
02:11:18,760 --> 02:11:24,320
>> Yeah, totally. And if I were into this, is the route I would go.

3650
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:26,680
And I'm not underbanked or underserved.

3651
02:11:26,680 --> 02:11:30,400
I am protecting my bank account.

3652
02:11:30,400 --> 02:11:31,560
Okay. Well, I don't know if we'll pass

3653
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:34,000
it up, but we'll I'll make a motion

3654
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:36,920
to move it forward to a night meeting.

3655
02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:38,160
We'll see if there's a second. I'll

3656
02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:40,120
second it.

3657
02:11:40,120 --> 02:11:43,960
Okay. Any discussion on the motion?

3658
02:11:43,960 --> 02:11:46,360
All right, we'll take a vote. Councilor

3659
02:11:46,360 --> 02:11:48,880
McKay, yes. Councilor Christensen is

3660
02:11:48,880 --> 02:11:51,440
excused. Councilor Whitlock.

3661
02:11:51,440 --> 02:11:54,160
Yes. Councilor Bogden. No. Councilor

3662
02:11:54,160 --> 02:11:57,040
Holben. No. Councilor Whipple. Yes.

3663
02:11:57,040 --> 02:11:59,240
Councilor Garrett. Yes.

3664
02:11:59,240 --> 02:12:01,480
Okay, so that's four to So, we'll go to

3665
02:12:01,480 --> 02:12:03,960
a night meeting. We can see. Can I just

3666
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,000
or The more information you want on that

3667
02:12:06,000 --> 02:12:07,360
>> for a point of clarification. Some of

3668
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:08,960
these questions, will there be

3669
02:12:08,960 --> 02:12:11,560
additional data part of this?

3670
02:12:11,560 --> 02:12:13,840
I can send it out in an updated memo and

3671
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:15,040
then we can go over it in the night

3672
02:12:15,040 --> 02:12:17,160
meeting as well if you want to.

3673
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:18,360
And do you do you feel like you have a

3674
02:12:18,360 --> 02:12:19,600
good understanding like the kind of

3675
02:12:19,600 --> 02:12:21,440
question that we Yeah, okay.

3676
02:12:21,440 --> 02:12:23,800
Thanks, William.

3677
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:27,840
All right. Next, we have HomeServe.

3678
02:12:27,840 --> 02:12:30,240
Is there any way you can get information

3679
02:12:30,240 --> 02:12:32,240
from our police about the number of our

3680
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:34,720
Provo residents who have been scammed?

3681
02:12:34,720 --> 02:12:36,600
>> definitely. Okay, thanks.

3682
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:39,400
One other

3683
02:12:39,400 --> 02:12:41,400
That would be helpful to have

3684
02:12:41,400 --> 02:12:43,920
Maybe I'll DIY this research, but I did

3685
02:12:43,920 --> 02:12:46,520
notice one of these in a Sub Zero

3686
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:49,160
downtown. Um great place for ice cream,

3687
02:12:49,160 --> 02:12:50,920
by the way. But, I'm just wondering like

3688
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:53,320
I'd be curious like what is the like

3689
02:12:53,320 --> 02:12:55,000
what is How does this help small

3690
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:57,400
businesses? Like are they How much How

3691
02:12:57,400 --> 02:12:58,280
are they benefiting?

3692
02:12:58,280 --> 02:12:59,840
>> Go go have a conversation with Sub Zero.

3693
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:01,920
Ask them why Also, if you do that, ask

3694
02:13:01,920 --> 02:13:03,640
them why they have it there.

3695
02:13:03,640 --> 02:13:05,440
Because they intentionally put it there.

3696
02:13:05,440 --> 02:13:07,720
Yeah, totally. So, why is it there?

3697
02:13:07,720 --> 02:13:08,480
Well,

3698
02:13:08,480 --> 02:13:10,080
>> is it to them?

3699
02:13:10,080 --> 02:13:11,680
I just generally sometimes they'll get a

3700
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:14,120
cut of the transaction fees and by

3701
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:15,400
allowing them to be placed there.

3702
02:13:15,400 --> 02:13:17,120
Typically though,

3703
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:19,680
like with any like retail ATM and such,

3704
02:13:19,680 --> 02:13:21,880
it's the convenience or attracting a

3705
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:23,920
certain, you know, customers or clients.

3706
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:25,960
>> bringing in it's Yeah, I think. But,

3707
02:13:25,960 --> 02:13:27,680
you'll have that with sort of like

3708
02:13:27,680 --> 02:13:29,240
retail ATM. Like you go to convenience

3709
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:30,680
stores. Sometimes they do get a cut of

3710
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:32,040
the transaction fee, but a lot of times

3711
02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:34,840
it's just we have it there so that

3712
02:13:34,840 --> 02:13:35,120
you know.

3713
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:37,320
>> More foot traffic. Well, if somebody

3714
02:13:37,320 --> 02:13:39,000
More foot traffic or if somebody needs

3715
02:13:39,000 --> 02:13:41,360
to make a purchase, they have access to

3716
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:43,760
an ATM or whatever. But, Ask him. I

3717
02:13:43,760 --> 02:13:45,720
will. I'm curious about it.

3718
02:13:45,720 --> 02:13:47,320
Yeah, I couldn't speak to specifically

3719
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:50,000
why Sub Zero would

3720
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:51,600
I do always feel like I'm scammed if I

3721
02:13:51,600 --> 02:13:53,040
go to buy something at a place and

3722
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:54,720
they're like, "Cash only." But, you can

3723
02:13:54,720 --> 02:13:57,000
carry ATM Right. that charges you a $10

3724
02:13:57,000 --> 02:13:59,720
transaction. That's the worst.

3725
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:01,400
All right. Next, an ordinance amending

3726
02:14:01,400 --> 02:14:03,840
power generation evaporative evaporative

3727
02:14:03,840 --> 02:14:05,280
cooling and environmental

3728
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:07,360
pre-requirements for data centers. It's

3729
02:14:07,360 --> 02:14:11,070
presented by Hannah Salton.

3730
02:14:11,080 --> 02:14:13,200
Hello. I don't know if you remember me

3731
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:15,480
standing up here last September and

3732
02:14:15,480 --> 02:14:16,720
saying you're going to hear from me in

3733
02:14:16,720 --> 02:14:18,120
the next year or so with cleanups once

3734
02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:19,520
we've gotten this code tightened and

3735
02:14:19,520 --> 02:14:22,800
field tested. This is exactly that.

3736
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:24,440
So, we processed an application already

3737
02:14:24,440 --> 02:14:26,000
that came to the council. We've talked

3738
02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:27,840
with other data centers. We've found

3739
02:14:27,840 --> 02:14:29,120
what points we thought were working

3740
02:14:29,120 --> 02:14:31,520
really well and what points we realized

3741
02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:34,360
we were more upfront being

3742
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:37,280
uh clear about as a possible no.

3743
02:14:37,280 --> 02:14:38,800
Or that we saw from the council

3744
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:39,920
discussions and planning commission

3745
02:14:39,920 --> 02:14:42,360
discussions might be possible no's.

3746
02:14:42,360 --> 02:14:45,800
Uh so, there are three things that this

3747
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:47,800
these amendments would accomplish. They

3748
02:14:47,800 --> 02:14:49,800
remove power generation as a permitted

3749
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:53,000
use and per UMPA policies, data centers

3750
02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:55,000
over 50 MW have to generate their own

3751
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:56,720
power. So, by removing that as a

3752
02:14:56,720 --> 02:14:57,960
permitted use in the overlay zone, it

3753
02:14:57,960 --> 02:14:59,800
effectively caps data centers in Provo

3754
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:02,960
to under 50 MW.

3755
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:04,840
Uh which also, you know, triggers some

3756
02:15:04,840 --> 02:15:06,560
other minor cleanups that we're looking

3757
02:15:06,560 --> 02:15:09,840
at smaller data centers.

3758
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:11,720
It would require non-evaporative cooling

3759
02:15:11,720 --> 02:15:13,720
measures. There was that trade-off in

3760
02:15:13,720 --> 02:15:16,800
efficiency where you use less water, but

3761
02:15:16,800 --> 02:15:18,680
you take more energy to move the smaller

3762
02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:20,880
round of water around more times. If we

3763
02:15:20,880 --> 02:15:22,720
are already limiting

3764
02:15:22,720 --> 02:15:25,080
energy use, we felt a little bit more

3765
02:15:25,080 --> 02:15:27,240
okay making clear stance on a

3766
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:30,200
closed-loop cooling system for water to

3767
02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:32,280
reduce water use, but also because we

3768
02:15:32,280 --> 02:15:33,720
were no longer trying to work with data

3769
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:35,400
centers having to balance their energy

3770
02:15:35,400 --> 02:15:37,760
load versus water use as much. If we're

3771
02:15:37,760 --> 02:15:38,880
already capping the energy load, it's a

3772
02:15:38,880 --> 02:15:40,520
smaller conversation.

3773
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:43,520
And then finally, it would remove the

3774
02:15:43,520 --> 02:15:44,680
requirement for third-party

3775
02:15:44,680 --> 02:15:46,480
environmental analysis,

3776
02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:47,880
which used to be required for data

3777
02:15:47,880 --> 02:15:50,080
centers over 5 MW, but as we've been

3778
02:15:50,080 --> 02:15:51,960
looking at these amendments and reaching

3779
02:15:51,960 --> 02:15:54,280
out to these environmental analysis

3780
02:15:54,280 --> 02:15:55,960
companies, they don't feel like they

3781
02:15:55,960 --> 02:15:58,040
would have anything really to analyze at

3782
02:15:58,040 --> 02:15:59,480
this point. If there's no major power

3783
02:15:59,480 --> 02:16:01,440
generation facility on site, if the

3784
02:16:01,440 --> 02:16:03,240
water is not being discharged into the

3785
02:16:03,240 --> 02:16:04,680
municipal system, it's often brought in

3786
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:06,200
by another system to make sure it's

3787
02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:08,880
clean and has the biocides they need, uh

3788
02:16:08,880 --> 02:16:10,720
then it has effectively the

3789
02:16:10,720 --> 02:16:13,320
environmental footprint of a large

3790
02:16:13,320 --> 02:16:14,760
office building.

3791
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:16,520
So, there's just simply not enough to

3792
02:16:16,520 --> 02:16:18,840
require an analysis.

3793
02:16:18,840 --> 02:16:22,400
Uh otherwise though, we did as staff

3794
02:16:22,400 --> 02:16:25,840
like the high discretion that the code

3795
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:28,280
gives the council to make the call on

3796
02:16:28,280 --> 02:16:29,920
whether or not a data center is the

3797
02:16:29,920 --> 02:16:32,719
appropriate use for that parcel. We

3798
02:16:32,719 --> 02:16:34,320
We've seen that in action and that held

3799
02:16:34,320 --> 02:16:36,120
up well. That part's not being touched.

3800
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:38,120
Any questions?

3801
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:42,910
Councilor Bogden.

3802
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:45,040
If this is at this discretion of the

3803
02:16:45,040 --> 02:16:47,320
council, why would we need any more code

3804
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:50,040
cleanup? I'm confused by that.

3805
02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:52,120
It signals mostly to developers. If

3806
02:16:52,120 --> 02:16:53,880
there's something that we are probably

3807
02:16:53,880 --> 02:16:56,120
going to say no about, we'd rather have

3808
02:16:56,120 --> 02:16:58,559
that in code as an upfront. If we are

3809
02:16:58,559 --> 02:17:00,480
really hesitant about power generation

3810
02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:02,920
on site as a city, for example, then

3811
02:17:02,920 --> 02:17:04,360
let's be upfront that that might be a

3812
02:17:04,360 --> 02:17:06,400
non-starter. But, I don't recall the

3813
02:17:06,400 --> 02:17:08,519
council ever

3814
02:17:08,519 --> 02:17:10,320
coming out and saying these are the

3815
02:17:10,320 --> 02:17:13,040
problems with this. I think

3816
02:17:13,040 --> 02:17:14,960
the way that we have the code right now

3817
02:17:14,960 --> 02:17:21,110
is okay. And I think

3818
02:17:21,120 --> 02:17:23,440
that we have that discretion and so, we

3819
02:17:23,440 --> 02:17:26,360
don't need any of the other stuff. Hm?

3820
02:17:26,360 --> 02:17:28,320
Because I mean, it it's already in our

3821
02:17:28,320 --> 02:17:30,360
UMPA stuff that

3822
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:32,000
they can't have power generation on

3823
02:17:32,000 --> 02:17:34,160
site. I know that the planning

3824
02:17:34,160 --> 02:17:36,559
commission didn't agree with any of this

3825
02:17:36,559 --> 02:17:38,800
either. Yes, I do need I should note

3826
02:17:38,800 --> 02:17:40,040
that. The planning commission did

3827
02:17:40,040 --> 02:17:41,840
recommend denial. They recommended

3828
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:45,040
instead of prohibiting power generation

3829
02:17:45,040 --> 02:17:46,880
on site, instead making it a conditional

3830
02:17:46,880 --> 02:17:47,920
use so that it could go through more

3831
02:17:47,920 --> 02:17:49,639
scrutiny, but it doesn't close the door

3832
02:17:49,639 --> 02:17:51,320
entirely. That is actually the route

3833
02:17:51,320 --> 02:17:52,800
that staff was considering, but then as

3834
02:17:52,800 --> 02:17:53,760
we talked with staff and other

3835
02:17:53,760 --> 02:17:57,040
departments and other parts of the city,

3836
02:17:57,040 --> 02:17:58,320
uh they thought that an outright ban

3837
02:17:58,320 --> 02:17:59,880
would probably be cleaner.

3838
02:17:59,880 --> 02:18:01,360
So, we're proposing that instead. And if

3839
02:18:01,360 --> 02:18:03,000
the council disagrees, you are welcome,

3840
02:18:03,000 --> 02:18:04,719
of course, as always to amend the code

3841
02:18:04,719 --> 02:18:05,760
or vote no.

3842
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:07,440
Well, I I just don't see that these are

3843
02:18:07,440 --> 02:18:09,480
necessary. I think

3844
02:18:09,480 --> 02:18:13,120
that we have written this code so that

3845
02:18:13,120 --> 02:18:18,400
we get ahead of it, right? So, that we don't have it written for us by the

3846
02:18:18,400 --> 02:18:21,320
state of Utah or someone else.

3847
02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:24,920
And I don't think that I mean, UMPA

3848
02:18:24,920 --> 02:18:28,920
already has this a policy for

3849
02:18:28,920 --> 02:18:30,920
power generation and for this, that, and

3850
02:18:30,920 --> 02:18:32,960
the other. And I just don't see closing

3851
02:18:32,960 --> 02:18:35,599
these loops as necessary. I think that

3852
02:18:35,599 --> 02:18:37,800
these are something that

3853
02:18:37,800 --> 02:18:39,240
And I don't I don't recall us ever

3854
02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:40,960
having a conversation that these things

3855
02:18:40,960 --> 02:18:43,200
are necessary. I just think I guess

3856
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:44,040
you're asking what This is what

3857
02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:46,320
instigated this. What What instigated

3858
02:18:46,320 --> 02:18:47,360
it?

3859
02:18:47,360 --> 02:18:49,360
Uh this came in part from conversations

3860
02:18:49,360 --> 02:18:50,880
with UMPA who does support these

3861
02:18:50,880 --> 02:18:52,559
amendments, but this is the conversation

3862
02:18:52,559 --> 02:18:55,040
we're having it now. Uh it was mostly

3863
02:18:55,040 --> 02:18:57,800
instigated by staff

3864
02:18:57,800 --> 02:19:00,320
uh talking with other council staff,

3865
02:19:00,320 --> 02:19:03,920
UMPA energy staff uh talking with other

3866
02:19:03,920 --> 02:19:06,880
data centers, seeing the pushiness of

3867
02:19:06,880 --> 02:19:08,960
some data centers, but also those that

3868
02:19:08,960 --> 02:19:10,840
were willing to be good partners were

3869
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:12,120
able to work with us on things that we

3870
02:19:12,120 --> 02:19:15,200
really did like and educate me honestly

3871
02:19:15,200 --> 02:19:19,040
about more of what was uh

3872
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:20,480
feasible within the community. For

3873
02:19:20,480 --> 02:19:24,679
example, uh how much more doable these

3874
02:19:24,679 --> 02:19:27,120
closed-loop water systems are so that

3875
02:19:27,120 --> 02:19:30,320
maybe that requirement is not so much of

3876
02:19:30,320 --> 02:19:31,440
a burden as we would have thought in the

3877
02:19:31,440 --> 02:19:33,920
industry initially. So, having learned

3878
02:19:33,920 --> 02:19:35,559
more, having field tested it, having had

3879
02:19:35,559 --> 02:19:37,320
more conversations with other cities,

3880
02:19:37,320 --> 02:19:39,599
other departments within our city,

3881
02:19:39,599 --> 02:19:41,800
that was the in summary

3882
02:19:41,800 --> 02:19:45,719
spark. Okay. Any questions for Hannah?

3883
02:19:45,719 --> 02:19:46,519
Councilor Whipple.

3884
02:19:46,519 --> 02:19:48,640
>> Whipple. Yeah, so

3885
02:19:48,640 --> 02:19:52,760
I'm I'm curious about um

3886
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:54,880
backup generation at the facility

3887
02:19:54,880 --> 02:19:56,400
because I would assume they need to have

3888
02:19:56,400 --> 02:19:59,080
that in the event that the power supply

3889
02:19:59,080 --> 02:20:00,880
is disrupted.

3890
02:20:00,880 --> 02:20:03,440
And that could have, you know, really

3891
02:20:03,440 --> 02:20:07,800
immediate, acute, local effects. Um so

3892
02:20:07,800 --> 02:20:10,520
would we not I I would assume that if we

3893
02:20:10,520 --> 02:20:13,360
did these full studies and everything,

3894
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:15,480
that would take into account any effects

3895
02:20:15,480 --> 02:20:17,640
of using the backup generation. Are we

3896
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:21,120
losing that ability with this proposal?

3897
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:22,480
It is something that we could add back

3898
02:20:22,480 --> 02:20:25,840
in. Uh we do require

3899
02:20:25,840 --> 02:20:27,800
still the uh environmental and air

3900
02:20:27,800 --> 02:20:30,720
quality reports, but we don't require

3901
02:20:30,720 --> 02:20:32,560
them to be analyzed by a third party.

3902
02:20:32,560 --> 02:20:33,640
I'll double-check the effects on that

3903
02:20:33,640 --> 02:20:35,840
exactly.

3904
02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:37,520
We still require an estimation of the

3905
02:20:37,520 --> 02:20:38,640
amount of pollutants that would be

3906
02:20:38,640 --> 02:20:41,160
produced including a whole list um and a

3907
02:20:41,160 --> 02:20:43,600
comparison against best made emissions

3908
02:20:43,600 --> 02:20:45,280
of a similarly sized office building.

3909
02:20:45,280 --> 02:20:47,200
So, we are still making them be

3910
02:20:47,200 --> 02:20:48,880
transparent and making them give us some

3911
02:20:48,880 --> 02:20:50,960
context so that we can find check that.

3912
02:20:50,960 --> 02:20:53,280
Okay. Another thing that I I've been

3913
02:20:53,280 --> 02:20:56,080
wondering about data centers generally

3914
02:20:56,080 --> 02:20:58,560
is there's a lot of

3915
02:20:58,560 --> 02:21:00,400
concern I've heard about kind of the hum

3916
02:21:00,400 --> 02:21:02,320
or vibration that comes from these and I

3917
02:21:02,320 --> 02:21:04,840
don't know how much of that is an effect

3918
02:21:04,840 --> 02:21:07,120
of the servers themselves running with

3919
02:21:07,120 --> 02:21:09,480
their little fans and and everything or

3920
02:21:09,480 --> 02:21:11,280
is related to the power generation on

3921
02:21:11,280 --> 02:21:12,520
the site.

3922
02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:13,520
But

3923
02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:16,200
I suppose what I'm worrying is

3924
02:21:16,200 --> 02:21:18,800
are there effects that would extend

3925
02:21:18,800 --> 02:21:20,240
beyond the property that could be

3926
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:22,400
considered nuisance that are not only

3927
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:25,320
caused by power generation? Yes, noise

3928
02:21:25,320 --> 02:21:27,200
is one of them. Um the code that was

3929
02:21:27,200 --> 02:21:29,280
adopted last September holds them to our

3930
02:21:29,280 --> 02:21:30,960
noise ordinance standard or the

3931
02:21:30,960 --> 02:21:32,320
requirements of the zone. For example,

3932
02:21:32,320 --> 02:21:33,800
anything in that planned industrial

3933
02:21:33,800 --> 02:21:36,360
commercial zone has a much lower noise

3934
02:21:36,360 --> 02:21:36,920
ordinance.

3935
02:21:36,920 --> 02:21:40,960
>> Yeah. Limit. But with some of these noises, I think they don't reach

3936
02:21:40,960 --> 02:21:42,680
the decibel level that's a problem, but

3937
02:21:42,680 --> 02:21:45,760
because it's that constant, persistent

3938
02:21:45,760 --> 02:21:48,040
hum and vibration, it causes real

3939
02:21:48,040 --> 02:21:50,000
issues. So, it wouldn't be necessarily a

3940
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:52,720
violation of our noise ordinance,

3941
02:21:52,720 --> 02:21:54,640
but it could still be a problem.

3942
02:21:54,640 --> 02:21:55,760
My understanding that is a bigger

3943
02:21:55,760 --> 02:21:57,480
problem with bigger data centers, which

3944
02:21:57,480 --> 02:21:59,960
was part of the motivation for capping

3945
02:21:59,960 --> 02:22:02,080
data center size, but if this is a

3946
02:22:02,080 --> 02:22:03,560
general concern among the council, we

3947
02:22:03,560 --> 02:22:04,880
could tighten noise ordinance

3948
02:22:04,880 --> 02:22:06,480
restrictions as part of these

3949
02:22:06,480 --> 02:22:09,960
amendments. And then, I know BYU has

3950
02:22:09,960 --> 02:22:13,040
some data facilities on their property

3951
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:15,200
that they work with to, you know, crunch

3952
02:22:15,200 --> 02:22:17,240
genetics information and stuff like

3953
02:22:17,240 --> 02:22:18,920
that. Um

3954
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:22,560
and I don't know what kind of systems they

3955
02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:24,720
have. Like

3956
02:22:24,720 --> 02:22:25,880
maybe it's appropriate to have

3957
02:22:25,880 --> 02:22:27,840
evaporative cooling systems in really

3958
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:29,520
small ones.

3959
02:22:29,520 --> 02:22:31,680
And so, that was a a question that I had

3960
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:33,120
as well.

3961
02:22:33,120 --> 02:22:35,880
The systems can be combined in any way.

3962
02:22:35,880 --> 02:22:38,080
It does take a lot more energy for a

3963
02:22:38,080 --> 02:22:40,120
closed-loop system in a bigger facility,

3964
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:41,600
of course. So, it is

3965
02:22:41,600 --> 02:22:42,520
um

3966
02:22:42,520 --> 02:22:44,240
cheaper to do on an energy side in a

3967
02:22:44,240 --> 02:22:46,440
smaller facility. I can't speak for BYU.

3968
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:48,280
I believe it's closed-loop, but I

3969
02:22:48,280 --> 02:22:49,400
haven't spoken with them in some months

3970
02:22:49,400 --> 02:22:51,000
about it and I can double-check. Okay,

3971
02:22:51,000 --> 02:22:52,720
thank you.

3972
02:22:52,720 --> 02:22:55,360
Councilor Bogdan.

3973
02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:58,440
Is your mic not on?

3974
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:00,520
Hey counselor, um what else?

3975
02:23:00,520 --> 02:23:03,320
Um can you say just a little bit more

3976
02:23:03,320 --> 02:23:06,360
about what you mean when you said that

3977
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:09,160
it felt cleaner to take this approach as

3978
02:23:09,160 --> 02:23:10,480
to kind of a performance standards

3979
02:23:10,480 --> 02:23:11,640
approach?

3980
02:23:11,640 --> 02:23:16,480
Uh the conditional use permit approach?

3981
02:23:16,480 --> 02:23:17,560
Well, in the planning commission

3982
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:19,000
discussion, they were effectively

3983
02:23:19,000 --> 02:23:20,440
saying, okay, instead of instead of

3984
02:23:20,440 --> 02:23:22,120
doing input-based regulation,

3985
02:23:22,120 --> 02:23:23,480
effectively do output or

3986
02:23:23,480 --> 02:23:25,040
performance-based regulation. Like let's

3987
02:23:25,040 --> 02:23:26,720
decide how much do we actually care

3988
02:23:26,720 --> 02:23:28,040
about water consumption, how much do we

3989
02:23:28,040 --> 02:23:30,480
actually care about um

3990
02:23:30,480 --> 02:23:32,560
noise, about these different ex-

3991
02:23:32,560 --> 02:23:34,280
negative externalities, which is the

3992
02:23:34,280 --> 02:23:37,160
public policy rationale for this, and

3993
02:23:37,160 --> 02:23:39,240
then let's kind of write those outputs

3994
02:23:39,240 --> 02:23:40,440
as part of the code as opposed to

3995
02:23:40,440 --> 02:23:42,040
something like this because, you know,

3996
02:23:42,040 --> 02:23:43,160
you got into the discussion about fuel

3997
02:23:43,160 --> 02:23:44,320
cells. Like there's innovative

3998
02:23:44,320 --> 02:23:46,600
technology that may address some of

3999
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:48,640
these negative externalities.

4000
02:23:48,640 --> 02:23:50,360
Um anyway, so I was just curious like

4001
02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:52,520
why did we decide to As I understood you

4002
02:23:52,520 --> 02:23:53,720
said we decided to go this approach

4003
02:23:53,720 --> 02:23:55,720
because it's cleaner or simpler and I

4004
02:23:55,720 --> 02:23:56,720
was just curious what if you could

4005
02:23:56,720 --> 02:23:58,920
expand on that. That was recommended by

4006
02:23:58,920 --> 02:24:01,280
other city staff as one of those that

4007
02:24:01,280 --> 02:24:04,040
they there was a perception that this is

4008
02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:05,360
something the city was probably going to

4009
02:24:05,360 --> 02:24:06,880
say no to, this being power generation

4010
02:24:06,880 --> 02:24:08,560
on site. If the city was going to be

4011
02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:10,920
saying no every time or if the city had

4012
02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:13,360
a bigger appetite for or would rather

4013
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:15,480
see multiple smaller data centers rather

4014
02:24:15,480 --> 02:24:17,840
than big mega facilities, then to just

4015
02:24:17,840 --> 02:24:20,720
use the size as a as a cap limit for

4016
02:24:20,720 --> 02:24:23,160
size with the energy as a cap for size

4017
02:24:23,160 --> 02:24:27,710
and also prevent the uh

4018
02:24:27,720 --> 02:24:30,480
conditional use process, which can be a

4019
02:24:30,480 --> 02:24:32,240
little subjective, can be a little

4020
02:24:32,240 --> 02:24:34,360
time-consuming. Staff was of course fine

4021
02:24:34,360 --> 02:24:36,800
with this. Again, the that was initially

4022
02:24:36,800 --> 02:24:38,120
the planning department's approach was

4023
02:24:38,120 --> 02:24:39,360
to take a conditional use permit for

4024
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:40,920
energy generation. Well, like for

4025
02:24:40,920 --> 02:24:43,520
example, this this um

4026
02:24:43,520 --> 02:24:45,440
fuel cell approach, that would violate

4027
02:24:45,440 --> 02:24:46,640
this, correct? Because it would be

4028
02:24:46,640 --> 02:24:48,760
considered on-site generation.

4029
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:51,520
Yes, it would be. That specific pitch

4030
02:24:51,520 --> 02:24:54,360
from that data center developer wouldn't

4031
02:24:54,360 --> 02:24:56,240
meet even the current code because

4032
02:24:56,240 --> 02:24:58,040
they're insisting it would be islanded,

4033
02:24:58,040 --> 02:25:00,160
which current UMPA policies and our code

4034
02:25:00,160 --> 02:25:00,800
do not permit.

4035
02:25:00,800 --> 02:25:01,480
>> Not allowed, yes.

4036
02:25:01,480 --> 02:25:03,400
>> So, even if these amendments didn't go

4037
02:25:03,400 --> 02:25:05,400
through, that facility still would not

4038
02:25:05,400 --> 02:25:08,320
have been legal.

4039
02:25:08,320 --> 02:25:11,510
Interesting.

4040
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:13,320
Any other

4041
02:25:13,320 --> 02:25:14,920
Councilor Houben.

4042
02:25:14,920 --> 02:25:15,760
First off, I want to say I'm

4043
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:18,120
appreciating Becky's inner libertarian

4044
02:25:18,120 --> 02:25:19,640
coming out today. Let's let adults be

4045
02:25:19,640 --> 02:25:22,120
adults. Why make Why make amendments if

4046
02:25:22,120 --> 02:25:24,720
we don't need to? This is kind of fun.

4047
02:25:24,720 --> 02:25:26,600
Um

4048
02:25:26,600 --> 02:25:29,800
uh so I appreciated Rachel's

4049
02:25:29,800 --> 02:25:30,680
um

4050
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:32,760
question or some of her thoughts. I

4051
02:25:32,760 --> 02:25:35,400
guess I I do like the idea of making

4052
02:25:35,400 --> 02:25:37,160
sure that we're not forgetting that

4053
02:25:37,160 --> 02:25:39,080
these backup generators can be pretty

4054
02:25:39,080 --> 02:25:40,720
disruptive.

4055
02:25:40,720 --> 02:25:43,480
Um sounds like they would have to be

4056
02:25:43,480 --> 02:25:46,240
within our noise ordinance limits

4057
02:25:46,240 --> 02:25:48,120
anyways, but

4058
02:25:48,120 --> 02:25:51,840
I don't know. I That is maybe Facebook

4059
02:25:51,840 --> 02:25:53,600
my algorithm is like all messed up right

4060
02:25:53,600 --> 02:25:55,320
now because all I get is like anti-data

4061
02:25:55,320 --> 02:25:57,040
center stuff and I don't know if that's

4062
02:25:57,040 --> 02:25:58,840
just because I was researching it or

4063
02:25:58,840 --> 02:26:00,520
what or maybe it's just happening more

4064
02:26:00,520 --> 02:26:03,320
and more, but it's all over and a lot of

4065
02:26:03,320 --> 02:26:04,760
the comments are around these backup

4066
02:26:04,760 --> 02:26:07,560
generators or the hum or kind of these

4067
02:26:07,560 --> 02:26:09,640
unforeseen

4068
02:26:09,640 --> 02:26:11,880
um consequences of the data center. So,

4069
02:26:11,880 --> 02:26:14,240
I guess I just wouldn't I I would some

4070
02:26:14,240 --> 02:26:16,760
of the things that she thought

4071
02:26:16,760 --> 02:26:18,480
we might want to kind of circle back and

4072
02:26:18,480 --> 02:26:20,280
address. I'm supportive of that as well.

4073
02:26:20,280 --> 02:26:21,160
I can't remember, there were two of

4074
02:26:21,160 --> 02:26:23,360
them. Backup generator and the hum, I

4075
02:26:23,360 --> 02:26:24,680
guess, yeah.

4076
02:26:24,680 --> 02:26:29,400
Um so, I just wanted to support that

4077
02:26:29,400 --> 02:26:30,840
and also just talk about Becky's

4078
02:26:30,840 --> 02:26:32,840
libertarian fight.

4079
02:26:32,840 --> 02:26:34,480
In defense of your feed, data centers in

4080
02:26:34,480 --> 02:26:36,200
Utah have been in the news more lately

4081
02:26:36,200 --> 02:26:37,880
as we're getting that 9 gigawatt

4082
02:26:37,880 --> 02:26:39,520
facility up north, which for context

4083
02:26:39,520 --> 02:26:41,040
would be 9,000 megawatts. That's what

4084
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:42,680
we're looking at limiting to 50. Yeah.

4085
02:26:42,680 --> 02:26:44,560
That is islanded naturally.

4086
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:46,240
>> what you're saying, but just simply by

4087
02:26:46,240 --> 02:26:48,120
limiting it to 50, we are going to

4088
02:26:48,120 --> 02:26:50,400
probably alleviate a lot of the issues

4089
02:26:50,400 --> 02:26:52,680
that you might see with other bigger

4090
02:26:52,680 --> 02:26:54,400
data centers. Like the hum will be less

4091
02:26:54,400 --> 02:26:56,520
because it's not as big and the won't be

4092
02:26:56,520 --> 02:26:59,640
as many backup generators and just yeah.

4093
02:26:59,640 --> 02:27:00,840
For the backup generators, that is

4094
02:27:00,840 --> 02:27:02,280
something we looked at exploring in this

4095
02:27:02,280 --> 02:27:04,120
code, but data centers are far from the

4096
02:27:04,120 --> 02:27:06,040
only facilities in our city that use

4097
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:08,200
backup generators. So, consider that

4098
02:27:08,200 --> 02:27:10,560
maybe if we're looking at regulating

4099
02:27:10,560 --> 02:27:12,520
backup generators in any way, it should

4100
02:27:12,520 --> 02:27:14,280
be in a more comprehensive way and not

4101
02:27:14,280 --> 02:27:15,840
nested just within this target facility.

4102
02:27:15,840 --> 02:27:17,360
Just go with our idle ordinance, 2

4103
02:27:17,360 --> 02:27:19,000
minutes. You can run it for 2 minutes.

4104
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:22,910
I'm just kidding.

4105
02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:24,640
They're our largest set of backup

4106
02:27:24,640 --> 02:27:26,400
generators that I know of. Okay,

4107
02:27:26,400 --> 02:27:26,920
interesting.

4108
02:27:26,920 --> 02:27:28,640
>> BYU has several. Other facilities, Rocky

4109
02:27:28,640 --> 02:27:31,000
Mountain Medical has several.

4110
02:27:31,000 --> 02:27:32,000
I frequently heard that.

4111
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:35,280
>> All right, any other

4112
02:27:35,280 --> 02:27:36,560
So, I guess you're looking for a motion

4113
02:27:36,560 --> 02:27:38,480
to move this forward. It's on the

4114
02:27:38,480 --> 02:27:40,320
agenda. It's on the agenda. Oh, it's All

4115
02:27:40,320 --> 02:27:42,280
right, that's right.

4116
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:44,040
I will say good work. I mean, just

4117
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:45,840
generally. I think

4118
02:27:45,840 --> 02:27:47,400
And I love the idea of having cleaner

4119
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:51,990
code whenever possible.

4120
02:27:52,000 --> 02:27:55,040
All right. Thank you.

4121
02:27:55,040 --> 02:27:57,720
Hey Brian, we have a closed session.

4122
02:27:57,720 --> 02:27:59,240
Yes, that's correct. There's been

4123
02:27:59,240 --> 02:28:01,000
there's an item for discussion that

4124
02:28:01,000 --> 02:28:03,000
involves um

4125
02:28:03,000 --> 02:28:06,440
potential sale of transfer of property

4126
02:28:06,440 --> 02:28:08,240
uh which is one of the approved reasons

4127
02:28:08,240 --> 02:28:09,320
that would be appropriate to close the

4128
02:28:09,320 --> 02:28:10,760
meeting at this time.

4129
02:28:10,760 --> 02:28:11,920
All right, I'll look for a motion to

4130
02:28:11,920 --> 02:28:13,880
close the meeting. I move that we close

4131
02:28:13,880 --> 02:28:16,600
the meeting. Second. Excellent. All

4132
02:28:16,600 --> 02:28:18,440
right, we'll call for a vote on the

4133
02:28:18,440 --> 02:28:21,160
motion. Councilor Whipple.

4134
02:28:21,160 --> 02:28:24,760
Yes. Councilor Bogdan. Yes. Councilor

4135
02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:26,680
Houben. Yes. Councilor Mendenhall, yes.

4136
02:28:26,680 --> 02:28:29,680
Councilor Harris. Yes.

4137
02:28:29,680 --> 02:28:32,240
Councilor Whipple. Yes. All right, that

4138
02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:34,240
passes 6-0.

4139
02:28:34,240 --> 02:28:36,200
And we will re-

4140
02:28:36,200 --> 02:28:39,360
meet in the back room down the hall.

4141
02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:42,520
Recording stopped.