[1:48] Recording in progress.
[2:44] » Okay.
[2:46] What's that up with what I come out and
[2:47] do?
[2:54] » [clears throat]
[2:58] » Channel 17, please start recording.
[3:06] » Welcome to T-MAC this beautiful August
[3:10] 20th, 2026 morning.
[3:12] Um it's 12:30 and
[3:15] uh
[3:17] we would like to go around do
[3:18] introductions and as you're doing your
[3:19] introductions, if you have any conflict
[3:21] of interest, please let us know. I'll go
[3:23] ahead and introduce myself. My name is
[3:25] Beth Provit. I am T-MAC chair.
[3:27] I'll turn to Noah.
[3:28] >> Noah Gordon, T-MAC member.
[3:30] >> Oh, no conflict by the way.
[3:32] >> We're supposed to all say for the
[3:33] record, Noah.
[3:35] That's correct.
[3:37] >> No conflict.
[3:38] >> [laughter]
[3:41] [clears throat]
[3:41] >> I'm Ryan Kohler. I'm a
[3:44] >> People come to me with their ideas.
[3:46] >> contingent T-MAC member, I guess, voting
[3:49] member. Um
[3:50] Yeah, I'm just here kind of as a
[3:54] involved people.
[3:55] Yeah.
[3:57] >> No conflicts.
[3:58] >> Oh.
[4:00] I wish they were.
[4:02] >> [laughter]
[4:02] >> After via public works.
[4:05] >> Joseph Gandy, public works.
[4:09] >> Eric Keller,
[4:10] T-MAC,
[4:11] conflict free.
[4:13] >> No conflicts.
[4:15] >> Hannah Baskin, member.
[4:18] >> I'm the PA on the council.
[4:22] » Okay.
[4:24] >> Good morning. No conflicts.
[4:27] >> I'm Greg McFarland, T-MAC member, and I
[4:29] have no conflicts.
[4:31] >> Uh Brian Hiesler, Provo City
[4:32] Engineering.
[4:33] >> Yeah, I'm sure Provo City Engineering.
[4:36] >> I'm here from Seven Peaks Neighborhood.
[4:39] >> Lynn Fortenberry.
[4:41] >> Evan Lewis.
[4:42] >> Richard Jensen.
[4:43] >> Okay. And
[4:44] >> I'm starting to draw Provo City Power.
[4:47] >> We have um no conflicts.
[4:49] >> Oh.
[4:50] >> Great. Uh Rachel, if you could unmute
[4:51] and just let us know real quick.
[4:55] » Yeah, Rachel Whipple here on the Provo
[4:57] City Council.
[5:00] » Okay. Thank you so much.
[5:02] Okay. Our first item, or I guess our
[5:05] second item, is an action item, and we
[5:07] want to approve the minutes from June
[5:09] 11th.
[5:11] Do we have anybody who would like to
[5:14] approve those minutes?
[5:17] » [clears throat]
[5:21] » Extra ordinary meeting.
[5:24] Minutes. Minutes.
[5:25] Meeting.
[5:26] Can we have a second?
[5:28] >> I second.
[5:28] >> Thank you, Greg. Okay.
[5:30] Uh
[5:31] our first
[5:32] >> You need to [clears throat] take a
[5:33] >> a vote.
[5:34] >> Oh, yeah. Oh, thanks.
[5:37] Is there a
[5:39] Everybody in favor?
[5:40] >> Yep.
[5:42] >> Anybody opposed?
[5:44] Nope. Perfect. Okay. Our first
[5:46] discussion point is East-West
[5:48] accessibility analysis and Grant is
[5:50] going to take it from here.
[5:51] >> All right, KayAnn, can you pull up my
[5:53] slides? Okay.
[5:55] Right, and do you mind if I control
[5:58] things and get a mouse here, too?
[6:03] Okay, so
[6:05] I volunteered to do this a few months
[6:07] ago.
[6:08] I I
[6:09] think that discussions like this
[6:12] East-West accessibility
[6:14] question are
[6:16] uh best informed by some kind of data
[6:19] um and analysis rather than just
[6:22] feelings, although feelings are
[6:24] important.
[6:25] Um and shouldn't be dismissed, but data
[6:27] on top of feelings is is helpful. Uh so,
[6:30] I'm a professor at uh in civil
[6:32] engineering at BYU if you did not
[6:33] already know that. Um
[6:35] and
[6:37] I
[6:38] volunteered to give this presentation to
[6:40] look at a slightly different
[6:42] take on the East-West connection problem
[6:45] that we wanted to talk [clears throat]
[6:46] about this year than the one that that
[6:47] Vern Heberly presented earlier this
[6:49] spring.
[6:50] Um
[6:51] so, just just kind of as a background
[6:53] overview of of the perspective that that
[6:56] I'm going to use in this analysis.
[7:00] Transportation School started this week,
[7:03] right? And BYU's starting soon, you know
[7:05] this. So, we're getting a little bit of
[7:07] education here. Um
[7:09] we'll even do an activity in a minute,
[7:11] too.
[7:12] Transportation systems have to provide
[7:14] two things.
[7:16] They have to provide mobility,
[7:18] which is moving things along. They also
[7:22] have to provide accessibility,
[7:24] which is at the end of what by the time
[7:26] you've gotten there, you have to be able
[7:28] to
[7:29] park or get out of the train or do
[7:32] something, right? There There has to be
[7:33] an activity there at the end of your
[7:35] trip, otherwise there's no point in the
[7:38] transportation system.
[7:40] Um
[7:41] Vern presented about level of service
[7:43] analysis uh uh in his presentation a
[7:46] couple of months ago. Level of service
[7:48] is a is a really useful tool for looking
[7:51] at the quality of a traffic stream.
[7:54] Really is is what it tries to describe.
[7:57] And functionally it is just the ratio
[8:00] it's defined as the ratio between the
[8:02] flow rate on the road and the speed of
[8:05] traffic on the road.
[8:07] Um, it is only a measure of mobility.
[8:10] Right? It just looks at how fast can
[8:13] cars move down this road, how freely can
[8:16] they move down this road. It doesn't try
[8:19] to say anything about the other half of
[8:21] the transportation system, which is this
[8:23] accessibility piece.
[8:26] Um,
[8:28] functionally the difference here, it
[8:30] doesn't matter how long it takes you to
[8:32] drive to Orem if the thing you want to
[8:34] go to is in Provo.
[8:36] Right? My my in-laws live in Fairview.
[8:40] They never experience anything less than
[8:42] a level of service A.
[8:46] But it takes them two hours to go buy
[8:48] groceries
[8:49] because the nearest place to buy
[8:51] groceries is Ephraim. There's a little store in Mount
[8:54] Pleasant, right? But so so they have
[8:56] very high level of service
[8:59] but they actually have very low
[9:02] accessibility which impedes their
[9:04] transportation like quality of life.
[9:07] Right?
[9:08] So you you have to have both. You have
[9:10] to have both a moving road
[9:14] and
[9:16] somewhere to go.
[9:17] And if you don't have both of those
[9:19] things, then the transportation system
[9:21] feels
[9:22] like it's not working for you.
[9:25] Um,
[9:27] there are ways to measure this
[9:28] accessibility and there are different
[9:30] ways of doing it. A simple one that we
[9:32] see a lot is well, how many jobs can I
[9:34] reach from my home within 20 minutes or
[9:37] 40 minutes.
[9:39] And you can, you know, put a point on a
[9:41] map, draw a line of how far away you can
[9:43] get in 40 minutes, count up the number
[9:46] of jobs in that space, and that's how
[9:48] you can make your measurement.
[9:50] Uh how many customers live within 10
[9:51] miles of my store? This is something
[9:53] that uh
[9:54] companies do all the time when they're
[9:55] trying to
[9:57] um find you know, do should we put in a
[10:00] new store somewhere? How many customers
[10:02] will be within
[10:03] uh my catchment range? Uh how far away
[10:06] is the nearest grocery store? How far do
[10:08] I have to go to get to the thing I want
[10:09] to do? And then just uh as a as a
[10:12] general metric, how much total time do
[10:14] you spend traveling each day?
[10:16] You know, assuming that the places
[10:18] you're going to are the places you want
[10:19] to go to,
[10:20] how much total time do you spend
[10:21] traveling? That is itself an
[10:23] accessibility metric more than just a
[10:25] mobility one.
[10:27] So now is where is when we'll do our
[10:29] little activity. In front of you, you've
[10:32] got a colorful little diagram. It's made
[10:34] by professors in Germany. So the
[10:38] distance is in meters. Just use time,
[10:41] right? Just if if you don't know how how
[10:43] far a meter is, you don't have to. But
[10:45] just take a couple minutes
[10:47] and go through with the your pencil or a
[10:49] pen and write down a few places you go
[10:53] to regularly and how far away from your
[10:56] home you wish they were.
[10:58] Okay, so this could be either what
[10:59] you're doing now if you like it or
[11:01] something better than what you're doing
[11:03] now. We'll just take a couple minutes
[11:05] for you to sort of work through this.
[11:08] Um and get an idea for this.
[11:11] >> Can we keep this?
[11:12] As well again?
[11:12] >> Yeah.
[11:15] Did anyone not get the sheet, the colorful sheet? I'm
[11:21] Officer, would you like to participate
[11:22] in this activity?
[11:24] >> [laughter]
[11:29] » So this is how far we wish things were.
[11:31] >> Yeah.
[11:31] >> So what you're you're basically asking
[11:33] what are the things that we wish were
[11:34] close to us.
[11:35] >> Yeah. Or, you know, it it's like, "Okay,
[11:37] I I go to a grocery store a lot.
[11:39] I wish that my grocery store that I
[11:41] preferred was
[11:43] 10 minutes away from me."
[11:44] Whatever.
[11:48] » You just said concert venue. That's very
[11:50] funny.
[11:53] » How far away would you like the concert
[11:54] venue to be, Councilwoman?
[11:55] >> I just thought of one.
[11:57] I just like a really crazy one and I'm
[11:58] like,
[11:59] "Oh."
[12:01] Man, I just thought of A CONCERT
[12:02] VENUE.
[12:03] >> [laughter]
[12:05] >> NOT AN AGENDA ITEM TODAY.
[12:08] >> That's funny.
[12:10] I think of the things I go to a lot,
[12:11] like
[12:13] Is your valley a lot?
[12:14] >> Yes, quite honestly, it's
[12:19] I like where I live versus where things
[12:21] are, so
[12:22] >> Yeah, well, then then describe your day.
[12:24] Describe Describe what you do now.
[12:37] » [clears throat]
[12:44] » Well, what you're saying is that you
[12:45] can't picture things you're making a
[12:47] You're you're making yourself a big
[12:48] city.
[12:49] You're making feel Usually one thing
[12:51] goes with another and it's
[12:52] ramifications, so
[12:54] >> Especially, yeah.
[12:56] And so, you know, there may be different
[12:57] levels of things, right? Like, maybe you
[12:59] want your primary care physician to be
[13:01] closer to you, but you wouldn't mind
[13:03] driving a further distance to get
[13:05] [clears throat] to
[13:06] specialist or a major
[13:08] uh medical center or something like
[13:10] that.
[13:19] » You could also think, "I would really
[13:20] love to
[13:21] you know, be able to get to Costco
[13:23] quickly, but I don't want to live
[13:25] immediately next door to a Costco.
[13:27] >> A high school?
[13:28] >> Yes, that's right.
[13:33] Like, you know, teenagers are delightful
[13:35] one-on-one
[13:36] and in a group they are
[13:38] really difficult.
[13:40] >> [laughter]
[13:43] » All right, I'll give you just another
[13:44] couple minutes to sort of
[13:47] think through this.
[13:50] is not an exam. I'm not actually
[13:51] collecting going to collect your data.
[13:53] You're welcome to go.
[13:55] Uh give this to your mother and put it
[13:56] on her fridge.
[13:58] Um
[14:33] Okay.
[14:34] So, you probably got a an idea of sort
[14:36] of how this would look for you.
[14:39] Um
[14:41] Some things you want closer, some things
[14:42] you don't mind being further away.
[14:45] But, the idea is you have some kind of
[14:46] space
[14:48] that you would like to be able to
[14:50] perform your daily life, right? It
[14:52] doesn't mean you don't want to travel
[14:53] Europe. Doesn't mean you don't want to
[14:55] go to Salt Lake occasionally. But, if
[14:57] you go to Salt Lake for daily
[14:58] activities,
[15:00] maybe that wears down on you. Um or
[15:02] maybe you commute there and that's okay, right? So, there there This
[15:05] is the idea here.
[15:07] Okay.
[15:08] So, now now with that background,
[15:11] this this idea here is sort of at the
[15:14] core of this analysis that I've done.
[15:17] And this analysis is just an
[15:18] illustration of an analysis that can be
[15:21] done. I don't intend that this be the
[15:24] final word on this. I don't intend that
[15:26] this be like actual data or be used for
[15:28] actual decision-making. This is just an
[15:31] illustration.
[15:33] Uh so what I what did I do in this
[15:34] project? Well, I said, "Let's gather
[15:36] some destinations that people might want
[15:38] to go to
[15:40] and decide some threshold about what I
[15:42] think they should be able to travel to
[15:44] that distance."
[15:46] And it's just asserted we could collect
[15:47] the data we could collect data like this
[15:48] for everyone in Provo and get more
[15:50] realistic uh
[15:52] curves and and uh important scales, but
[15:55] we didn't do that here. I just asserted
[15:57] everything.
[15:58] Um based on that, we can look at which
[16:01] neighborhoods have good access and bad
[16:03] access to various kinds of destinations.
[16:08] And then,
[16:09] we can look at changes that we make to
[16:11] the roadway network or to the land use
[16:14] in Provo and see how that affects the
[16:17] accessibility of these neighborhoods.
[16:20] By the way, feel free to interrupt me at
[16:21] any point if if something is unclear or
[16:23] if you just want to like dig in deeper
[16:25] on an idea.
[16:26] Um
[16:27] I don't have a particular timeline for
[16:30] how fast we get through this. So, you
[16:32] want if you want to stop me, it's okay.
[16:34] So, the points of interest that I picked
[16:35] for this I I chose elementary schools in
[16:38] Provo. These are Provo School District
[16:39] schools.
[16:40] Uh I excluded charter schools although
[16:42] they'll show up on the map. I didn't
[16:43] include them. I said you should be able
[16:44] to get to an elementary school in 5
[16:46] minutes. Transportation nodes, you
[16:47] should be able to get to these within 15
[16:49] minutes. Included I-15 interchanges and
[16:52] FrontRunner stations.
[16:53] Uh retail stores, 10 minutes and grocery
[16:56] stores, 10 minutes and parks, 5 minutes.
[16:59] >> I see multiple not getting there too.
[17:01] >> Yeah, that's right.
[17:05] Uh so I pulled all these points from
[17:06] OpenStreetMap or a couple that I made on
[17:08] uh I made some apps on my own.
[17:11] Uh all right, so here's
[17:13] So, these are the transportation nodes
[17:16] that I say you should be able to get to
[17:18] as many of these as possible in 15
[17:19] minutes.
[17:21] Here are our grocery stores. This data
[17:23] is not perfect because I just scraped it
[17:25] from OpenStreetMap.
[17:26] There is a Alliance and Fence Supply
[17:28] that someone has put in as a grocery
[17:29] store.
[17:30] >> [laughter]
[17:31] >> But, you know what? That's fine because
[17:33] there's a Target here where people can
[17:34] buy some groceries that's not on the
[17:35] map. So, this data is not perfect.
[17:38] Here are parks.
[17:40] There are a lot of retail stores.
[17:41] Basically, anything where they sell
[17:42] goods is a retail.
[17:43] Um and then here again, the schools,
[17:45] although I've excluded like these
[17:48] charter schools and high schools from
[17:49] the actual analysis data.
[17:52] Uh and like for the schools and
[17:54] transportation, we just did what's in
[17:55] Provo. For the retail, I picked all of
[17:57] Utah County.
[17:59] Uh
[17:59] but functionally, people can't get there
[18:01] in 10 minutes. So,
[18:03] uh
[18:04] This is This is the data points of
[18:06] interest that we're looking at.
[18:09] Okay, for the highway network, I used
[18:11] the Wasatch Front Travel Demand Model
[18:12] network calibrated for their 2019 base
[18:15] scenario.
[18:16] So, it's not the most recent one, but
[18:17] it's the one I had most easily
[18:19] available.
[18:20] Um and I'm using the congested PM travel
[18:23] times.
[18:25] So,
[18:26] uh
[18:27] I've colored these links by level of
[18:29] service.
[18:30] So, dark green means the link has a
[18:33] level of service A. Red means it has a
[18:35] level of service E or F.
[18:37] Uh this road is not actually operating
[18:39] at level of service F.
[18:41] What it is is the travel model dumps all
[18:43] of BYU's activity on these two roads.
[18:46] And so, it there's some
[18:48] aggregation problems that happen in the
[18:51] network from that. But, overall, it's a
[18:53] decent network for just getting a skim
[18:56] of travel times.
[18:58] Um Pros of this, I can use congested
[19:00] travel times and I can adjust how fast
[19:03] the road is going. The cons of this, it
[19:05] does not have every road in it, right?
[19:06] It's just You can see the roads that are
[19:08] included. It's just kind of high
[19:09] capacity facilities. We're missing all
[19:12] the uh
[19:13] like most Some collectors are in it,
[19:15] some are not, and all the local roads
[19:17] are in it.
[19:17] >> So, this data is 2019 [clears throat]
[19:19] data. It's not like MAG's projected
[19:22] forward data or anything like
[19:23] >> No, this is the 2019 calibration data.
[19:25] >> base year
[19:26] >> Yeah, so they made it in 2022 using data
[19:29] that had been collected pre-pandemic.
[19:33] Um
[19:34] So, from that network, I can drop a
[19:35] point anywhere in space and measure how
[19:39] far that person can get in the PM peak
[19:42] hour uh within these bands, right? So, a
[19:46] point dropped in this neighborhood here,
[19:47] right at the mouth of the canyon, can
[19:49] get to this blue area in 5 minutes, the
[19:51] yellow area in 10, and the red area in
[19:53] 20, according to the travel model. Your
[19:55] mileage may vary.
[19:57] Yeah, it's like right at the mouth of
[19:58] Provo Canyon there. Well, you can zoom
[20:00] in. Where is this person?
[20:02] Yeah.
[20:03] >> Riverwoods
[20:03] >> Yeah, Riverwoods. The Riverwoods is
[20:05] right here, kind of up on the hill
[20:07] there. I just picked this point at
[20:09] random to illustrate
[20:10] Um
[20:12] This is not perfect, right? It looks for
[20:13] the nearest link in the network, so
[20:15] there's some distortion that happens
[20:17] if the nearest link in the network
[20:19] happens to be I-15,
[20:22] then that means that they're stuck on a
[20:23] one-way link and have to go to the next
[20:25] exit before they can get back going the
[20:27] other way.
[20:28] I didn't like force them to pick the
[20:30] nearest two-way link, but you know, so
[20:32] there's a little bit of error that comes
[20:34] from that. But again, this is just for
[20:35] illustration.
[20:37] Okay, so let's look at how things are
[20:39] currently in Provo with these different
[20:40] ideas.
[20:42] So, here's my grocery stores map.
[20:44] The The darker the household points,
[20:47] I I sampled a synthetic household that a
[20:51] synthetic population
[20:52] at the household level pinned to all the
[20:55] parcels in Provo, basically. This I'm
[20:57] just showing a sample of points on the
[20:58] map here.
[20:59] But the darker the the circle, the more
[21:02] grocery stores the person can access
[21:04] within the the 10-minute band.
[21:07] So, access to grocery stores is pretty
[21:08] good if you live close to Orem because
[21:11] that's where a lot of the the the stores
[21:13] are.
[21:14] Um it's decent in Central Provo. Again,
[21:16] there's this distortion here because
[21:18] these people can get to stuff in
[21:19] Springville cuz it puts them straight
[21:20] onto I-15.
[21:21] Um and access to grocery stores is is
[21:24] fairly poor in Slate Canyon, which
[21:27] you would not know. You would expect.
[21:30] >> Surprise, right?
[21:31] >> Yep. Uh elementary schools.
[21:33] Again, this is this is
[21:35] You have great uh access to elementary
[21:37] schools in Central Provo
[21:39] because there are a lot of schools there
[21:40] and you can get to lots of them in
[21:42] different directions. Uh if you're on
[21:44] the edges of the city, your access is
[21:46] going down.
[21:48] The number of elementary schools you get
[21:49] to might not be the best measure because
[21:51] most people only need to get to one.
[21:53] Uh
[21:54] >> I'm going to guess they're they're all
[21:55] by one.
[21:55] >> They're all by one, right? And so maybe what we should do with this
[21:59] analysis instead of counting how many
[22:01] can you get to in 5 minutes, can you get
[22:03] to one in 5 minutes?
[22:05] >> That's right.
[22:05] >> But
[22:06] that's that again is is something you
[22:08] can you can choose to do.
[22:10] Uh transport nodes.
[22:13] Uh Edgemont and Tree Streets
[22:14] neighborhood have pretty poor access to
[22:17] transport nodes relative to the rest of
[22:19] the city, which
[22:20] >> Right.
[22:21] >> Having grown up there, you living there
[22:22] now, yeah, we we get we get that idea.
[22:25] But if you live over here uh in in the
[22:27] west part of Provo, you actually have
[22:29] exceptional access to transport nodes
[22:31] cuz that's where the transport nodes
[22:32] are.
[22:35] So, what we can do is we can add all
[22:36] these together and I'm going to move
[22:38] this a little bit so you can see the
[22:39] rest of my equation. Um
[22:42] we can add up all of these different
[22:45] categories. So, grocery stores, parks,
[22:46] trails, uh
[22:49] transport nodes, schools, and retail
[22:51] things,
[22:52] multiply them by this weight.
[22:55] I just picked the weights to kind of
[22:57] give a number.
[22:58] Um
[23:00] the weight on these retail outlets is
[23:02] really small because a lot of people can
[23:03] reach hundreds of retail outlets within
[23:06] a 15-minute band.
[23:08] So, we've kind of scaled that one down.
[23:10] We've really scaled up the transport
[23:12] nodes and schools. Yeah, we could fight
[23:14] about what what weights these should
[23:16] get, but that's a discussion for later.
[23:22] Okay. So, that's our baseline.
[23:25] Now, [clears throat] we can change the
[23:27] roadway network or change the land use
[23:30] to see how changes to these roads would make a difference.
[23:34] And so, I've got three roads.
[23:36] I couldn't add new roads in this
[23:38] analysis. I can only change the roads
[23:41] that were existing. That doesn't mean
[23:42] you couldn't,
[23:44] but I didn't here. Um so, 2200 North
[23:48] between University Parkway and Timpview
[23:49] Drive,
[23:50] 700-800 roads between Geneva Road and
[23:52] 900 East, and Center Street between
[23:55] Geneva Road and 900 East.
[23:57] I took these three east-west corridors
[23:59] that kind of run across the city that
[24:01] we've talked about a lot, and we can
[24:03] make changes to them.
[24:05] So, 2200 North, this is how
[24:08] accessibility would change if the entire
[24:11] road operated at free-flow speed
[24:14] in the uh PM peak hour.
[24:17] So, up here in the tree streets in Oak
[24:20] Hills,
[24:21] there this person's composite access
[24:24] score increases by 2.6%
[24:29] if we take them from the level of
[24:31] service
[24:32] B that they're operating at now and move
[24:34] them to a level of service A.
[24:36] So, there there's a small increase in
[24:38] accessibility.
[24:40] Of course, this this is not equally
[24:41] distributed across all types, right?
[24:45] >> we say that road is running at C now?
[24:47] >> At peak time.
[24:47] >> Yeah, what was your what was your show
[24:49] what was the rating you had? It was like
[24:51] It was C or D, right?
[24:52] >> I think it was level of service D or E,
[24:55] yeah,
[24:56] at PM peak hour.
[24:57] >> Yeah, it's not C.
[24:58] >> Now, this this so that's
[25:00] >> data. This is a few years old, so there
[25:02] may be a discrepancy there, right? So
[25:04] the baseline here may not be what the
[25:06] baseline is now,
[25:08] but this is if you make it totally free
[25:11] flow. This is how accessibility would
[25:13] change, and this is whose accessibility
[25:16] would change.
[25:16] >> So when you point out a 2.6% for that
[25:19] one household or that one So
[25:22] aggregately, it I mean, that's just for
[25:25] that one
[25:26] >> That's just for that one household. And
[25:27] we'll look at the aggregate score later.
[25:29] And when I say this 2.6, this is across
[25:31] all of the weighted things. We could
[25:34] pick just transport nodes.
[25:37] Right? So making this road operate at
[25:39] free flow speed takes this cluster of
[25:42] homes
[25:43] that are close to the mouth of Rock
[25:45] Canyon and effectively gives them access
[25:47] to one more transportation node within
[25:49] that 15-minute threshold.
[25:51] >> 10 houses?
[25:52] Right? So it's it's it's a So
[25:55] really small impact for a very small
[25:58] group of people.
[25:59] Yeah.
[26:00] >> I'm sorry if you've already covered
[26:01] this, but when you say taking it to a
[26:02] free flow speed, are we talking like
[26:05] freeway or
[26:06] >> No, this would be
[26:07] >> post time
[26:07] >> uncongested, right? So it's it's faster
[26:10] than the posted speed limit. I think
[26:12] it's like speed limit plus five is what
[26:14] the free flow speed is set at.
[26:16] >> And did you talk about
[26:17] what it would take to accomplish that or
[26:18] not?
[26:19] >> No.
[26:20] one asked.
[26:21] >> Yeah.
[26:23] » [clears throat]
[26:23] >> Okay.
[26:24] Uh parks, right? There's here a little
[26:26] bit more
[26:27] uh benefit is is seen with a few oh a
[26:31] bit of a wider spread, right? These
[26:33] people can now get to some of the parks
[26:35] in Northeast Provo faster. These people
[26:37] can get to some of the parks in West
[26:39] Provo faster.
[26:40] Um
[26:42] grocery stores,
[26:44] very small benefit for some people in in Wymount.
[26:48] Uh
[26:49] fairly decent uh spread, but a small
[26:53] benefit for, um,
[26:55] retail stores, right? So, this this is
[26:57] what we can look at.
[26:59] On the other hand, we can also look at
[27:01] what happens if we make this road, uh,
[27:04] so there's a 1.1 volume capacity ratio.
[27:08] So, this is definitely into the F range.
[27:11] Um, and this is who would be
[27:14] hurt by that. Right? So, it's a much
[27:18] different proposition. It's a it's a
[27:20] wider spread. It's a deeper spread. So,
[27:23] this these people up in Oak Hills lose
[27:25] 13, 14% of their existing accessibility
[27:29] if that road suddenly magically becomes
[27:31] level service F.
[27:34] Yeah, that's right.
[27:36] >> Same day.
[27:37] >> So, this this is not our normal
[27:38] situation. This is well beyond this is
[27:40] like crawling traffic.
[27:43] That's right.
[27:45] But, the difference between a D and an F
[27:46] is pretty substantial. It's like
[27:51] If you think of it as a grade, an A and
[27:53] a B are 10% apart. A D and an E are 10%
[27:55] apart. But, in terms of like volume
[27:58] delay, a D and an F is like twice as bad
[28:00] as a D, and a D is like 5% worse than an
[28:03] A. Like, it's it's it's it's not a
[28:05] linear change.
[28:09] Um,
[28:10] transportation notes. Yeah, so a lot So,
[28:13] people living along this corridor would
[28:16] see a decrease in their ability to get
[28:17] to transportation as with these people
[28:19] up, uh, near the mouth of Rock Canyon.
[28:23] Um,
[28:24] we can click through a few of these, but
[28:25] we'll just go on to the next one.
[28:27] So, this is 800 700 North. We can do the
[28:29] same thing. Make that road operate at
[28:31] free flow speed.
[28:32] Uh, so this is five over the speed limit
[28:34] effectively for the whole length of the
[28:36] road.
[28:37] Um,
[28:38] and I'm treating this as one road. In
[28:40] reality, of course, you'd have to do
[28:41] some kind of thing, but we don't have
[28:42] intersection delay in this in this
[28:44] network. So, people just kind of mesh
[28:47] through traffic signals, so we don't
[28:48] worry about that. Yeah.
[28:49] >> Quick question. So, I guess part of it
[28:51] was the light. So, when you say free
[28:53] flow, that's assuming they get all
[28:54] greens?
[28:54] >> It's assuming that yeah, they can move
[28:56] perfectly.
[28:56] >> And then, um you're saying five above.
[29:00] Um I know with 2200, that's basically
[29:02] what people are driving already, but I
[29:04] think it's unintended.
[29:05] >> It would be unintended. Yeah. So,
[29:06] there'd be no vehicles.
[29:07] >> So, there wouldn't be a backup at the
[29:08] light or anything.
[29:10] >> That's right.
[29:12] And again, this this this network is
[29:14] aimed at a regional planning. It's not
[29:16] aimed at like microscopic traffic delay.
[29:20] So, it doesn't have like left turn
[29:22] pockets or permitted signals or things
[29:24] like that. It's just
[29:25] traffic kind of flows along it.
[29:27] >> And this is still based all off of 2019
[29:30] data.
[29:31] >> It's It's relative to a 2019 calibration
[29:33] baseline.
[29:35] So,
[29:35] >> 7800
[29:36] >> delay is probably
[29:38] 3% higher than it used to. You know,
[29:40] it's it's not radically different. It's
[29:42] not like I went back to the 1980s.
[29:44] >> Yeah.
[29:45] >> Um
[29:47] Okay, so yeah, with 7800 North,
[29:49] here we see the benefits spread across a
[29:51] much wider area of the city.
[29:54] Um and some some of the benefits are are fairly big, especially for the
[29:59] people who live along it.
[30:01] Um
[30:02] and you know, they're they're different
[30:04] for different things, right? So, parks,
[30:06] for schools,
[30:08] retail, but again, the benefits are
[30:10] mostly for
[30:12] you know, people across core of the
[30:13] city.
[30:14] We make this road operate at level of
[30:16] service F.
[30:18] It's this This benefit is much more
[30:20] symmetrical than the other one.
[30:22] So, with 2200 North,
[30:26] the making it really bad hurts a lot of
[30:29] people, and making it better helps a
[30:31] couple,
[30:32] but here it's it's much more
[30:34] symmetrical in terms of its effect and
[30:36] in terms of the number of people.
[30:38] >> Good corridor.
[30:39] >> That's right.
[30:41] Um
[30:42] And the last road scenario is Center
[30:44] Street where because I couldn't do the
[30:47] free flow speed because these are 15
[30:48] miles an hour, I just set the whole road
[30:50] to 30 miles an hour
[30:52] uh which is which means that some people
[30:54] out here actually see a decrease because
[30:57] that makes this road these links a
[30:59] little bit slower than the free flows in
[31:02] the existing condition.
[31:03] So, this this gets up Most people have a
[31:06] positive benefit. Some people actually
[31:08] have a negative benefit if you make
[31:10] that whole corridor 30 miles an hour. I
[31:12] could have cranked it up to 40 to get
[31:14] rid of that, but that would have been a
[31:15] >> [laughter]
[31:17] >> So, but again, you you see some some of
[31:19] the same basic issues like
[31:22] fairly large benefits for a few people
[31:26] some small benefits for a lot of people
[31:28] spread across mostly the core of of
[31:31] Provo. Yes.
[31:34] Uh
[31:35] Transportation notes, if you did this,
[31:37] right? You get a big band of people who
[31:39] benefit here from being able to get to
[31:41] One more.
[31:42] It doesn't really change anything for
[31:44] people who live in this area.
[31:46] And then for people who live up in the
[31:47] tree streets up hills, you get to
[31:49] another
[31:50] So.
[31:51] Um
[31:52] But yeah, so in this mid-range, so if
[31:54] you're close enough to I-15, you didn't
[31:55] see any benefit.
[31:57] If you're just at the right distance
[31:59] away, you get a bit of a benefit, but if
[32:00] you're in here, it doesn't really help
[32:02] you more than it used to.
[32:04] If you consider this as 15 in, 16 out.
[32:08] Not really help people see things, but that's that's how this analysis is.
[32:14] Uh and then we could make it slower,
[32:16] make it level service F and
[32:19] Okay.
[32:23] The other benefit of this analysis or
[32:24] this way of analyzing things is that you
[32:27] can also change the land use. You can
[32:29] change the points of interest and look
[32:32] at how that makes an effect.
[32:35] Because again, transportation is not
[32:36] just about the roads and the trains and
[32:38] the bike paths. It's also about the
[32:40] places people need to use those things
[32:42] to get to.
[32:44] So, in this scenario, I added three
[32:45] grocery stores to Provo unilaterally.
[32:48] I said there'll be one west of Center
[32:50] what on Center Street west of the
[32:52] freeway. I said there'll be one on 900
[32:54] East where the Vasa is that used to be a
[32:56] grocery store and is has been a gym
[32:59] in various forms for a while and on
[33:02] State Street in Slate Canyon.
[33:04] >> You picked like the three biggest
[33:05] >> Yeah. I I I tried to maximize the
[33:08] appearance of the That's right. But, you
[33:10] know, if if you put in these grocery
[33:11] stores,
[33:12] it doesn't affect anybody's ability to
[33:14] get to a park, right? Not at all.
[33:18] But, it affects a lot of people's
[33:19] ability to get to an additional grocery
[33:21] store within that 10 min.
[33:23] And it's a it's a pretty big jump,
[33:25] right? This person used to be able to
[33:27] get to four, now they get to five.
[33:29] That's a
[33:30] 20% increase.
[33:32] Um and with the waiting we used,
[33:36] there's actually a pretty big
[33:38] benefit across the entire city from
[33:41] these grocery stores. And then again, we
[33:43] haven't changed anything about the
[33:44] roadway network. We've just given an
[33:47] additional point of interest.
[33:49] Three additional points of it.
[33:52] So, we can look at these in aggregate,
[33:54] all our scenarios together. The way to
[33:57] read this chart
[33:58] is
[34:00] loss on the left mean that people's
[34:02] accessibility is going down.
[34:04] Loss on the right mean that their
[34:06] accessibility is going up.
[34:08] Um the colors indicate what kind of
[34:11] score it is with this composite thing
[34:14] sort of this pale green and like grocery
[34:17] stores being orange.
[34:19] The bars indicate the spread of that
[34:22] benefit. Like some people get a little,
[34:23] some people get a lot. And
[34:26] um
[34:27] the size of the dot indicates the
[34:29] percentage of Provo residents who would
[34:33] see that average benefit.
[34:35] This is the bigger the dot, the more
[34:37] people benefit from it,
[34:39] >> [music]
[34:39] >> and the further to the right, the more
[34:42] benefits they get.
[34:45] And so, in all of these scenarios,
[34:47] the biggest and the the most or the
[34:51] largest composite benefit and the one
[34:52] that goes to the most people is actually
[34:55] the grocery store scenario.
[34:57] Adding three grocery stores would do
[34:59] more for Provo than making all of our
[35:01] roads free flow speed.
[35:03] Or at least these any of these East-West
[35:05] corridors. We could look at them
[35:07] together, we could look at other roads,
[35:09] like we could we could play with these
[35:11] things.
[35:12] We could also decide that our grocery
[35:14] stores are weighted too heavily in this
[35:15] analysis, let's let's change some other
[35:17] things and these numbers would change.
[35:21] Again, this is not like
[35:24] an analysis that should now be used in
[35:26] policy making, right? We we would need
[35:28] to go through and figure out what the
[35:31] weights are, what the
[35:33] >> weights? Was it 0.3? Your highest
[35:35] weighting was for grade schools.
[35:36] >> Yeah, grade schools are 0.5. I think
[35:38] grocery stores are 0.2.
[35:40] >> It wasn't incredibly high.
[35:40] right?
[35:43] >> Conceptually, it's like if you put the
[35:44] things people go to closer to them, you
[35:46] don't need as much traffic.
[35:48] >> That's exactly right.
[35:50] Um especially when you when you think of
[35:52] a place like Costco,
[35:54] right? You get you get the people from
[35:56] traveling from all the way out here on
[35:58] the road,
[35:59] plus the people traveling from here on
[36:01] the road, plus the people traveling from
[36:03] here, and all the traffic stacks up on
[36:05] the roadway.
[36:07] Whereas if you have another thing for them to go
[36:11] to,
[36:12] then the the additive traffic problem
[36:15] gets less important.
[36:19] >> All of this is mobility or not mobility,
[36:21] it's accessibility. It's not really
[36:22] measuring mobility, right?
[36:24] >> That's right.
[36:24] >> So, like if you say 15 minutes to the
[36:26] freeway, but somebody lives an eighth of
[36:29] a mile off the freeway, but they have to
[36:30] drive parallel to the freeway for 15
[36:32] minutes to get on, they're unhappy,
[36:34] right?
[36:35] >> That's right.
[36:36] >> So even though it looks good here, it's
[36:38] like that's
[36:40] people aren't getting a like like if you
[36:42] say, "Okay, if you're within 15 minutes,
[36:44] that's great." But if you're only a
[36:45] block away and it takes you 15 minutes
[36:47] to get there, you're mad.
[36:48] >> Now in this in this case, because we're
[36:50] using the network path travel time, it
[36:53] would get how far the way they are on
[36:55] the network, not how far away they are
[36:57] in space.
[36:58] Right?
[36:58] >> Yeah.
[36:59] >> Unless they happen to live immediately
[37:01] next to the freeway, in which case they
[37:03] might this method might make them use
[37:05] the freeway to get there.
[37:06] >> I would love to see freeway on there.
[37:10] » Yeah, the freeway specifically. Yeah.
[37:14] » Yeah, I mean it also depend on your
[37:16] mobility and in what form of traffic you
[37:18] want. Like if if you want to if you want
[37:19] to walk, what is a 15-minute walking
[37:22] time versus driving time versus biking
[37:24] time?
[37:25] >> Yeah, so so looking at the limitations,
[37:27] right? Like we could talk about which
[37:29] POIs are important to include and which
[37:31] ones are not.
[37:32] Right? Calling all retail stores the
[37:33] same thing is probably not correct.
[37:36] Um calling all grocery stores the same
[37:37] thing is also probably not correct,
[37:39] right? The Hilleman Halls Creamery shows
[37:41] up in this data set
[37:43] uh in the same form that Harmon's does,
[37:46] right? And that that's not correct.
[37:48] >> And like I think accessibility to
[37:49] employment is really difficult to show
[37:51] because a lot of people, you know, they
[37:52] have to drive out of town to go to work.
[37:54] >> right.
[37:55] >> And where are they going? It's like you
[37:56] have to look at the max.
[37:57] >> But it's also it's also tricky though
[37:58] because like
[38:00] yeah, you you have to look at a wider
[38:02] scale, but people only have like one or
[38:04] two jobs, right? And so getting like
[38:07] having access to 60,000 jobs within 30
[38:09] minutes
[38:10] >> And everybody specializes.
[38:12] >> care about your own job.
[38:13] >> Not all jobs are equal. All jobs are
[38:15] very unequal, right?
[38:16] >> Well, then we also have to realize that
[38:18] each person or family has a choice
[38:21] >> Yeah.
[38:22] >> of where they're wanting to live versus
[38:23] where they I mean there's some
[38:24] affordability issues there, too, but it
[38:26] is a matter of I like this neighborhood.
[38:28] >> Right.
[38:29] >> in this neighborhood, so that eliminates
[38:30] or that immediately
[38:32] limits exactly what their mobility is,
[38:34] right? For instance, if they're
[38:35] efficient.
[38:36] >> So, there is a matter of choice of
[38:38] individuals as well.
[38:40] >> Yeah, I mean we're everyone here is
[38:41] choosing in the form of constraints and things like that. Um another big one
[38:45] is these are all hypothetical trips.
[38:47] This gets to your point about the the
[38:48] employment thing, right? This is what
[38:51] you could do, not what you were actually
[38:53] doing.
[38:54] Um the activity-based models that WFRC
[38:57] is working on would allow us to do that
[38:59] kind of thing, where we look at a
[39:01] synthetic person, look at their modeled
[39:04] work location, and figure
[39:06] [clears throat] out how changes to the
[39:07] network would help would help or hurt
[39:09] them on their specific daily trips.
[39:12] Um that's that's a
[39:14] further step that requires more complex
[39:16] tools than I can crunch a week.
[39:19] Um
[39:19] but
[39:21] So, yeah, there's a lot of limitations
[39:22] in this analysis.
[39:24] There are a lot of limitations in level
[39:26] of service analysis, as well, right? But
[39:28] I think I think pairing these two
[39:30] analyses together
[39:32] helps get helps us get a better picture
[39:35] of well, what who would be who would
[39:37] benefit, who would pay,
[39:39] what would be the benefits be, how
[39:41] widespread they would be, um and I think
[39:44] doing this kind of analysis for these
[39:46] kinds of east-west corridor discussions
[39:49] would help Provo City make better
[39:50] decisions
[39:52] than just oh, this road's really bad,
[39:54] let's make it wider.
[39:57] » If we were to settle on one of the three
[40:00] east-west corridors
[40:03] without the grocery stores, I mean cuz I get what you're saying, which is
[40:07] you put people
[40:08] what they want, where they're wanting to
[40:10] go close to them, they don't need to be
[40:12] on the network, but let's pretend that
[40:14] we don't get those three grocery stores.
[40:17] >> Then which of those three corridors
[40:19] comes out kind of as the leader that
[40:22] gives the biggest benefit?
[40:24] >> Well, it it 20
[40:25] >> other things being, you know, just based
[40:27] on your
[40:27] >> Yeah, so if you look at this composite
[40:29] Well, if you look at the composite
[40:30] score,
[40:31] Center Street and and 800 North are
[40:34] pretty close.
[40:35] Um there's a big
[40:37] They both have kind of a wide spread,
[40:38] right?
[40:40] Um if you were if your job was we want
[40:42] to get people to transportation faster,
[40:45] then 800 North would definitely be the
[40:47] best.
[40:49] Um
[40:50] but you know, some people would benefit
[40:51] a lot and some people would not benefit
[40:53] as much as the average of Center Street.
[41:01] I don't know that any of these can
[41:03] happen exactly as we put it, right?
[41:09] It would be a huge issue. But I mean, if you made if you made 100 North
[41:13] free flow speed and tied it in fast to
[41:16] Center Street, it would effectively be
[41:19] the same.
[41:21] » So if I'm understanding right,
[41:24] the
[41:25] according to this analysis, the thing
[41:26] that would actually have the largest
[41:27] impact on
[41:29] would be having more groceries.
[41:31] >> Yeah, or yeah.
[41:34] >> [laughter]
[41:36] » No, but what I think is interesting is
[41:38] the city's not in the business of
[41:39] building groceries.
[41:40] So I constantly on Facebook on the Provo
[41:43] pages people saying, you know, the city
[41:44] needs to give us a Westside grocery.
[41:46] Well, the city doesn't The city's not
[41:48] Kroger.
[41:49] So but what is interesting is while the
[41:51] city isn't in the business of building
[41:52] grocery stores, cities all over the
[41:54] country have been in the business of
[41:56] creating subsidies for larger
[41:59] further space apart
[42:01] mega retail grocery and then things for
[42:04] years. And that's what's created this
[42:05] problem. Is that Provo used to be dotted
[42:09] with neighborhood grocery stores. My my
[42:11] business my building was a grocery
[42:12] store, and there was one one block away.
[42:14] And I just think that were groceries
[42:16] more expensive than in Walmart?
[42:19] Probably. But, how much are we paying
[42:20] for road construction, for road
[42:22] widening, for gas, for travel time?
[42:24] Like, it doesn't make sense. So, while
[42:26] the cities, I think, have created this
[42:28] problem,
[42:30] the cities, unless they want to go into
[42:31] the grocery business, can't fix it.
[42:34] >> It's interesting you mentioned the west
[42:36] side and they have such great flow and
[42:38] everything because there aren't that
[42:40] many people.
[42:41] The grocery stores don't want to go
[42:42] there cuz there's not enough people.
[42:43] Like, the same thing is
[42:45] Yeah. And you mentioned the incentives
[42:48] and stuff. Provo has been taking a poll
[42:51] last 5 years.
[42:52] They email me. So, it's just people who
[42:53] are what Whatever it comes up, it's for
[42:55] 5 years it come up a lot.
[42:58] And I don't shop at Walmart.
[43:00] But, everyone shops at Walmart. And it
[43:03] just cracks me up. I'm like, from
[43:04] wealthy to not wealthy, it Cuz cuz cuz I I my thing was like, "Oh, let's
[43:09] get you to a Day's. Let's get you to a
[43:10] Day's on the west side and on south
[43:12] I love Day's.
[43:13] You grew up there?
[43:14] >> Uh
[43:15] >> Yeah, all the time. And when I lived in
[43:17] the south When I lived in south Yeah,
[43:19] when I lived in southeast Provo, I just
[43:21] wanted Day's every day.
[43:23] And so, I moved back there. But,
[43:25] I'll give the citizens that all ask for
[43:27] Walmart. And I said, "Well, what are you
[43:28] going to What are you going to shop
[43:29] there?" I said, "Are you ridiculous? You
[43:30] have ridiculous prices." You know what
[43:31] it
[43:32] It's such a hard thing cuz people want
[43:35] what they want. And they're willing to
[43:36] go spend a hundred million dollars at
[43:38] the fork in Orem to shop at Walmart.
[43:41] Provo citizens.
[43:43] So, I don't It's like
[43:44] >> I drive to Orem to shop at Harmon's.
[43:47] >> What?
[43:47] >> I drive to Orem to shop at Harmon's.
[43:49] >> So do I.
[43:51] But, um we spend
[43:53] Provo citizens spend a hundred million
[43:54] about a hundred just under a hundred
[43:56] million at
[43:58] Springville
[44:00] and Orem for Walmart and at Smith's and
[44:02] Springville. I mean, that's what they
[44:04] want. That's what they choose to do. You
[44:05] do it.
[44:06] >> Every Sunday night I
[44:07] go to the Walmart.
[44:09] >> [laughter]
[44:11] [clears throat]
[44:11] >> First special on the show.
[44:13] >> thing, what people do want.
[44:15] >> Well, you don't know if if there was a
[44:16] Days on the west side, would people use
[44:18] it? I don't
[44:19] >> Well, but when we've gone out, like that
[44:21] one selfie, what was that one? It was
[44:22] such a total produce.
[44:24] If if there was a woodworking place
[44:26] >> And um Alan.
[44:28] >> You know, it didn't make it. The Amish
[44:30] store didn't make it. It's just sad. I
[44:32] don't I don't know what the answer is.
[44:34] >> Yeah, I mean, with grocery stores, I
[44:36] just I have a paper being published next
[44:38] week about grocery store accessibility
[44:40] in Utah.
[44:41] Um
[44:42] and in doing the research for this,
[44:43] margins at grocery stores are super
[44:46] tiny. They're so small. And so, by
[44:50] aggregating everything into a
[44:51] supermarket, you can you can actually
[44:53] run a functioning business on
[44:55] agglomeration, right? And so, and Days
[44:58] does not try to compete on price. It
[44:59] tries to compete on service.
[45:01] >> I'm I'm going to reel it back just a
[45:03] little bit just because
[45:05] It's great we're talking about grocery
[45:06] stores, but grocery stores is not what
[45:08] this meeting is about. We're about
[45:09] transportation and how to get to places.
[45:12] So, I appreciate the analysis on adding
[45:15] those grocery store points would make
[45:17] transportation
[45:19] easier,
[45:21] depending on choices people make of
[45:23] where they want to go shopping.
[45:25] Um I find it very interesting
[45:29] the transportation nodes is kind of what
[45:31] I was focusing on a little bit, getting
[45:33] to and from the major transportation
[45:35] nodes, getting to the freeway, to the
[45:37] tracks, and
[45:40] making 820 faster
[45:43] and 2200 North faster
[45:46] and free flowing, how
[45:48] much that increases people's ability to
[45:51] get to the transportation nodes, get to
[45:53] the places to go to these other places,
[45:56] or to
[45:57] >> Well, it's it's it's a big change,
[46:02] but it affects a very small number of
[46:04] people, especially the 2200 North one,
[46:07] right? There are like 10 households that
[46:08] have a big change.
[46:09] >> But the 820 North 8 home North one,
[46:12] a lot of people.
[46:13] >> Well, it's it's about
[46:15] uh it's about 10% of Provo households.
[46:18] >> Okay.
[46:23] It wasn't about just the households. We
[46:24] had a presentation by IAC the other day
[46:27] at our meeting.
[46:29] And you know, they bring in
[46:33] how many companies
[46:35] >> What is
[46:36] >> How many employees are there that come
[46:37] in there?
[46:37] >> There is 2200.
[46:38] >> 2200 that commute in and drive their
[46:41] car.
[46:43] And the um and they talked about
[46:45] ambulance trips. Like their ambulance
[46:46] trips shocked me. I had no idea cuz they
[46:48] do all the ambulances from all South
[46:50] Utah.
[46:51] You know, and they're extremely
[46:55] good in 820 right there.
[46:56] They have that
[46:57] freeway interchange there. And the
[46:58] difference
[47:00] even in ambulance time, they say they
[47:02] could cut down saving lives. And that's
[47:04] the the speed at which ambulances could
[47:06] actually get to the hospital from the
[47:07] west side and from South Provo. There's
[47:09] an interchange there instead of coming
[47:11] from so far all through University
[47:13] Parkway or center.
[47:14] >> But so would a trauma center in Spanish
[47:16] Fork.
[47:18] » I I think
[47:19] >> But they're still
[47:20] >> I mean, they're they're all driving past
[47:21] the hospital in Spanish Fork to get to
[47:23] the one in Provo.
[47:24] >> Hospitals are at a higher level, right?
[47:26] >> That's that's right. Yeah.
[47:27] >> say you have a regional hospital versus
[47:29] just a small trauma center.
[47:31] Even small trauma centers can't
[47:33] deal with certain things. They would
[47:34] have to go to the regional center.
[47:37] Um
[47:38] but I
[47:41] To me, it if you're focusing on
[47:43] transportation, you're focusing the
[47:44] other issue I see with
[47:48] accessibility
[47:49] is accessibility to businesses like
[47:51] Center Street
[47:53] and everything. Center Street
[47:55] the interchange, the whole Center Street
[47:57] corridor.
[47:58] Big talking point for it. Um and I
[48:01] appreciate the fact that you're focusing
[48:03] on accessibility and points of interest
[48:06] because I think that's a really big
[48:08] thing for business owners cuz if we have
[48:11] roads that are not functioning as they
[48:13] could be,
[48:14] Provo City is losing out on
[48:17] millions of dollars.
[48:18] >> I think there's there's two sides to
[48:20] that coin, though, right? Where if you make Center Street
[48:24] that cars can so that cars can drive by
[48:27] it more quickly,
[48:29] you will actually kill the businesses
[48:31] that are there.
[48:32] >> So, my question on that is that to be
[48:35] able to help businesses and as we're
[48:37] looking at transportation, cuz we do, we
[48:39] want to thrive in downtown.
[48:40] So, what alternative things can we do?
[48:42] We've talked about 100 North. We have
[48:44] talked about pushing to 300 South
[48:46] because the state already is expanding
[48:48] that need that a huge corridor.
[48:50] What are things that we as a community
[48:53] could recommend to City Council, to the
[48:54] mayor to say, "Hey, this would be
[48:57] something that could
[48:58] really impact
[49:00] downtown Provo in a good way."
[49:02] >> And I think I think this analysis that
[49:05] we've done here should not inform that
[49:07] discussion, right? I think I think what
[49:09] we would need to do is take this and do
[49:13] it in a way that we can all agree on
[49:15] and we, I mean the professionals that Provo City hires, is the
[49:18] consultants that they hire, um
[49:21] to implement this as as a additional way
[49:24] of looking at how Provo City functions.
[49:27] Um I think just looking at traffic
[49:29] >> analysis
[49:30] of how this analysis could help?
[49:32] What is your quick summary of how this
[49:33] analysis
[49:34] >> You see who benefits and how they
[49:35] benefit. Whereas the mo- a level service
[49:38] analysis just says, "Let's make this
[49:39] road faster."
[49:40] >> There's always multiple solutions to a
[49:42] problem. And the real world isn't nice
[49:44] like a math equation. So, if you have
[49:46] everybody not commuting all far away
[49:49] along the same corridor, if you can
[49:51] provide them alternate places to be that
[49:53] satisfy what they're looking for, the
[49:55] traffic needs on that corridor don't
[49:57] exist. You're you're eliminating the
[49:59] problem before it's a problem.
[50:01] And that's honestly ideally the best
[50:04] thing you can do. Now, it's very
[50:06] difficult. If we had like grocery
[50:08] stores, those three additional grocery
[50:10] stores, that's great. But can we here
[50:12] build them? Are we in that business?
[50:15] Right? If you build those grocery
[50:16] stores, that frees up the road for
[50:18] everybody else who uses those roads, so
[50:20] they should be happier. People have the
[50:22] grocery store closer to themselves
[50:23] should be happier. And you're avoiding
[50:26] having to fork out an intense amount of
[50:28] money to build up your transportation
[50:29] system because people don't need to go
[50:31] that far for what they need. And that is
[50:33] the ideal, right? Now, that's not the
[50:35] reality we live in, but that is the
[50:36] ideal.
[50:37] >> I mean I mean you guys have spent untold
[50:39] millions
[50:40] trying to get everyone in Saratoga
[50:42] Springs out of Saratoga Springs every
[50:44] day
[50:44] instead of just
[50:46] building some places for people to work
[50:48] in Saratoga Springs.
[50:49] >> Yes.
[50:50] Brynn, you have something?
[50:51] >> Well, I think the clear picture is how
[50:54] important land use is tied to
[50:57] transportation. I think we're all aware
[50:59] of that, but I think a couple of these
[51:01] slides really took home how important
[51:04] that message is of land use associated.
[51:08] So, I I appreciate Greg's effort here to
[51:11] really show us how they
[51:13] uh can impact. I think uh Greg is to be
[51:17] uh recognized for his good work on that,
[51:19] and uh I think the healthy discussion
[51:22] that I'm hearing, uh by the way, we're
[51:24] doing everything we can to get a grocery
[51:25] store in Southeast Provo.
[51:28] >> [laughter]
[51:29] >> We're doing some
[51:30] Yeah, uh we're we're recruiting, okay?
[51:33] I I want to put a agency together
[51:35] recruit a grocery store down there, but
[51:38] uh it's happening. It's happening, so.
[51:40] >> I do I do think that if one thing if I
[51:43] could make one recommendation out of
[51:45] this discussion, I'll make two.
[51:47] The city engineers should think about
[51:49] this when they do these things.
[51:50] The second is we have a we have a
[51:53] liaison from the planning commission
[51:55] here.
[51:56] Do we have a liaison to them?
[51:58] Like is there somebody on the
[51:59] transportation commission?
[52:03] Is it the same person?
[52:04] >> Yeah.
[52:04] >> Okay. All right, that's fine.
[52:07] >> I I appreciate that you put this
[52:09] together and I appreciate the looking at
[52:12] the impact of these things. I would
[52:13] almost I don't I don't know. I guess I
[52:15] would recommend possibly sending this on
[52:17] to city council.
[52:19] And then let them see
[52:21] if that's just
[52:23] as a document we could
[52:26] >> We can do that after that because we'll
[52:28] need to put it in the minutes and we're
[52:29] happy to forward it on to anybody.
[52:31] >> I yeah, I can render this to PDF. It
[52:33] won't have the fancy script.
[52:37] » Rachel here. I just wanted to say the
[52:39] thing that I thought was interesting was
[52:42] usually when we have a new business or
[52:44] something going in and we look at the
[52:46] traffic study, we're concerned about the
[52:48] additional traffic that will be
[52:50] generated and the impact on you know,
[52:52] the local streets.
[52:54] And this was making me think about it
[52:56] differently. Like the people who will be
[52:58] benefiting in the area by having that
[53:02] you know, attraction close to it. Um and
[53:05] I don't know that that I've seen traffic
[53:08] studies looking at the benefit as
[53:10] opposed to just the burden in that way
[53:11] before.
[53:14] » That's a really good a really good
[53:16] point. Um California changed and it no
[53:19] longer uses level of service analysis in
[53:21] its traffic impact studies.
[53:23] It's changed to something that is really
[53:25] unworkable and hard to deal with. But uh
[53:28] And so I wouldn't recommend necessarily
[53:30] doing what they do. Um
[53:32] But thinking about this, yeah, like not
[53:34] just the extra activity and how where
[53:36] all these people going to park, but will
[53:38] this actually reduce
[53:41] the distance people travel to get
[53:42] somewhere else and then would that be a
[53:44] benefit for Provo's roadways? Yeah.
[53:47] >> Again, thank you so much for putting
[53:49] together and we will
[53:50] hopefully this can be sent on to
[53:54] the council.
[53:56] >> Or would you like me to send a link?
[53:57] >> I don't know.
[53:58] >> If you send a link, just put the link to
[53:59] my email.
[54:00] >> in. That way they don't have to PDF that
[54:02] message.
[54:03] >> Perfectly.
[54:04] >> Um we have about 10 minutes left real
[54:06] quick. So I just wanted to get to the
[54:08] engineering projects update and I know
[54:11] we're going to have more discussion on
[54:12] these West End connectivity next time
[54:14] kind of a
[54:15] what I'd like you guys to bring up for
[54:17] next time is kind of your final analysis
[54:20] on all the information we've heard about
[54:21] East-West connectivity and any
[54:24] major points or thoughts. I know I have
[54:26] got a couple written down here and so
[54:28] next time we'll talk about major points
[54:29] and thoughts on it and any potential
[54:33] ideas and or recommendations we might
[54:37] And then
[54:39] uh I'd like to turn it over to the
[54:40] engineering staff for our updates real
[54:41] quick.
[54:42] >> I'm going to quickly start with the our
[54:44] State Street Trail update um from 300
[54:48] South to 9th South.
[54:50] Uh we ran into a storm drain issue where
[54:53] we had to go and redesign that. Spent a
[54:55] couple weeks redesigning, waiting for
[54:57] UDOT to approve that that uh change and
[55:01] then we're back to work on that. So if
[55:03] you haven't seen anything happening out
[55:05] there in 2 weeks, that is why.
[55:07] Uh 600 South Trail update from 100 East
[55:11] or 100 West to 4th
[55:13] East is moving forward at Center
[55:15] Construction. Um
[55:18] the railroad has cooperated and we're
[55:19] moving forward with that project.
[55:22] Um the the 820 North Bridge ribbon
[55:25] cutting is this Saturday.
[55:27] Um it starts at
[55:29] ribbon cutting for the bridge and trail
[55:32] starts at 11:00 for bike decorating and
[55:35] then at 11:30 we have some remarks from
[55:38] the mayor and and uh public works
[55:40] director. Ribbon cutting is 11:45 and
[55:43] then uh we get to ride underneath the
[55:45] bridge for the uh people have already
[55:47] been doing it. Uh so we'll do that uh
[55:51] and you can see the new mural that's
[55:53] under the bridge. Um
[55:55] >> It's really awesome. I'm excited to see
[55:56] it.
[55:56] >> That project uh came in just about 3
[56:00] weeks later than we anticipated uh for
[56:02] the road and about 6 weeks later than we
[56:05] anticipated for the trail. That's
[56:09] We didn't want anybody disturbing the
[56:11] artwork while it was under construction.
[56:13] So it's better just to keep things
[56:15] closed instead of closed we open closed
[56:18] we you know.
[56:19] So but the project is under budget. So
[56:22] we're very happy with the way that
[56:23] turned out. David Nicholson did an
[56:24] excellent job as project manager on
[56:27] that. Um
[56:28] I really believe that uh we want to
[56:31] invite all of you come out uh for that
[56:34] on Saturday morning. So we'll be in
[56:36] attendance on that. Uh Joseph anything
[56:39] else you want to say about that?
[56:40] >> Great.
[56:41] >> Okay and then University Avenue Bridge replacement update. Uh
[56:47] I don't know if anyone geeked out like I
[56:48] did. I went out there
[56:50] uh Saturday night and watched them take
[56:51] the beams off the big truck and then
[56:54] load the beams onto the bench and then they got out of sequence so
[56:58] then they had to load the beams off the
[56:59] truck and put it to the side um and then
[57:02] the next night they tried to catch up
[57:04] doing the work but anyway
[57:06] fun stuff right?
[57:07] Um it was fascinating to to continue to
[57:10] see uh that bridge going up. Uh so
[57:13] excited um
[57:14] anyway
[57:15] uh if I can answer any questions on that
[57:17] let me know. Heyon's got the last 5
[57:19] minutes. I'm going to head to my 1:30
[57:22] meeting and uh it's always good to see
[57:24] you guys and
[57:25] I'll talk with you guys about the next
[57:27] agenda. Okay?
[57:28] Thanks.
[57:28] >> Good night everyone.
[57:29] >> Thanks.
[57:32] » Okay. Well,
[57:34] what I'm going to do is we're going to
[57:35] do a quick update on our capital
[57:38] improvement projects. These are just
[57:40] some of the projects. Um
[57:42] not all of them.
[57:44] Uh here is our CDBG project. This is in
[57:47] Franklin neighborhood. We did we
[57:50] targeted total of 12 intersections.
[57:53] 32 new ADA ramps were installed and we
[57:56] did improve some sidewalk as well at the
[57:58] intersection, obviously.
[58:00] Um
[58:01] the total for that Franklin neighborhood
[58:03] was about 100 and thousand-ish.
[58:07] Um we did get total of 150,000. Mind you
[58:10] again, this was a CDBG application. The
[58:13] remaining funding, which was about 40,
[58:15] 35,000,
[58:17] we transferred that to another CDBG
[58:19] application that I did last year uh for
[58:21] Foothill neighborhood. This is close to
[58:23] the Wasatch Elementary, the new Wasatch
[58:25] Elementary School.
[58:27] Uh we did total of 14 new ADA ramps
[58:30] there. We targeted a bunch of
[58:31] intersections, as you could see. This
[58:33] one right here, 1250 East on the east
[58:35] side, the whole road was or the whole
[58:37] sidewalk or gutter was improved.
[58:40] Um the other sections that you see,
[58:42] these are spot improvements at the
[58:44] intersections. Mainly, you're looking at
[58:46] ADA and program gutter improvements.
[58:48] >> Grinding down.
[58:49] >> Sidewalk, new sidewalk.
[58:50] >> New sidewalk.
[58:51] >> That was a big project.
[58:53] >> I like that project.
[58:55] >> 1250 East looks a lot better. There were
[58:58] a lot of um drainage issues. Obviously,
[59:01] ADA was out of compliance. The driveways
[59:03] were out of compliance.
[59:05] When we improved uh 1250 East, the west
[59:09] side, I had a most of these residents,
[59:12] whenever they would see me, they would
[59:13] stop and like, "Hey, when are you going
[59:14] to do similar improvements on our side
[59:16] of the road?"
[59:17] I let them know unfortunately the amount
[59:19] of funding that I had I was able to only
[59:21] do what I'm able to do here, but I'll
[59:23] certainly reapply next year to make some
[59:26] more improvements, if if funded,
[59:28] obviously.
[59:29] Um this is some of the pictures of that
[59:31] 1250 East as well as the other locations
[59:34] in the Foothill neighborhood.
[59:38] And then 900 East 900 South sidewalk
[59:41] improvement project. This was not a CDBG
[59:44] application.
[59:45] We used our capital funding to make some
[59:47] sidewalk improvements here.
[59:49] Uh project turned out really good.
[59:52] Again, uh
[59:53] on the other side of the road, west side
[59:55] of the road,
[59:56] we got a lot of interest from our
[59:58] residents. They want to see similar
[1:00:00] improvement on their side as well. Uh
[1:00:02] this section did not have carbon gutter
[1:00:04] or sidewalk. Uh so this is brand new
[1:00:06] sidewalk, brand new carbon gutter. It
[1:00:07] was a huge connectivity issue that that
[1:00:10] we were able to resolve.
[1:00:12] Uh we didn't
[1:00:14] build two new driveway accesses based on
[1:00:16] our residents' requests.
[1:00:18] Um and then obviously there were some
[1:00:20] ADA ramps that went in here. Part of the
[1:00:22] project, we also installed a new cross
[1:00:24] gutter. Uh we had a cross gutter that was
[1:00:28] falling falling apart. We improved that
[1:00:30] with a brand new uh
[1:00:32] cross gutter there as well.
[1:00:33] And uh
[1:00:34] more pictures of the project, obviously.
[1:00:37] Uh this year I applied for two more CDBG
[1:00:41] applications, and luckily we were
[1:00:43] granted funding. So M neighborhood is
[1:00:46] going to be one of the projects that
[1:00:48] I'll get I'm going to design uh next
[1:00:50] year. We see about $250,000
[1:00:53] worth of uh funding.
[1:00:55] There was a developer
[1:00:58] a private developer, obviously,
[1:00:59] proposing a development, and they needed
[1:01:02] some extra help from the city side. In
[1:01:04] the past, we have never done anything
[1:01:07] similar to what we're doing for them,
[1:01:08] meaning going out of our way, finding a
[1:01:10] source of funding for them. Uh but
[1:01:12] obviously the the developer's
[1:01:15] idea was dependent on extra uh help from
[1:01:17] city. So we were able to get some
[1:01:19] funding, about $250,000 worth of
[1:01:21] funding. We're going to do curb gutter,
[1:01:23] driveways, and storm water ADA pullouts
[1:01:27] at the intersections and some similar
[1:01:28] improvements.
[1:01:30] The other application that I submitted
[1:01:31] for next year was for Dixon
[1:01:33] neighborhood. I'm going to do similar
[1:01:35] improvements that I did in Franklin. I'm
[1:01:36] going to target ADA ramps where we
[1:01:39] currently don't have ADA ramps or the
[1:01:40] ramps are not up to standard. Um, I did
[1:01:43] get about about 150,000 worth of funding
[1:01:46] on this.
[1:01:47] Those two will be for next year.
[1:01:50] Good.
[1:01:52] >> Good job getting a handle on that money.
[1:01:53] Good job.
[1:01:54] I would say, I mean, dealt with these
[1:01:56] kinds of projects. The ADA ramps aren't
[1:01:58] necessarily as challenging.
[1:02:01] Putting in curb and gutter and sidewalk,
[1:02:02] you would think that would be less like
[1:02:04] a really easy thing to do from a design
[1:02:05] perspective. They're kind of the most
[1:02:07] challenging because you're dealing with
[1:02:08] all this existing stuff.
[1:02:11] Trying to make it work. A lot easier to
[1:02:13] design a brand new road.
[1:02:15] Developers have it easy when they're
[1:02:16] plowing new ground, but uh, so it's hats
[1:02:19] off
[1:02:20] to the whole city staff cuz that
[1:02:22] actually is it's really quite
[1:02:24] difficult and interesting to do.
[1:02:26] >> Absolutely. Yeah, this 1250 East section
[1:02:28] that we did, um,
[1:02:30] the existing sidewalk was way lower.
[1:02:33] And based on the design, in order to
[1:02:35] meet the requirements for uh, basically
[1:02:37] driveway access and slopes as well as
[1:02:39] sidewalks to curb and gutter, there was
[1:02:41] a lot of thought processes that went
[1:02:43] into it. Uh, one of the solutions were
[1:02:45] to have curb wall all the way to
[1:02:46] project. Um, obviously, as you can see
[1:02:50] here, we have a transition going on here
[1:02:52] and the sidewalk is not 6 ft all the
[1:02:54] way. There's a transition to meet our
[1:02:56] basically slope requirements.
[1:02:58] Tying into curb and gutter and then the
[1:03:00] on the other side sidewalk tying into
[1:03:02] driveway and then tying the driveway new
[1:03:04] driveway to the existing driveways. Um,
[1:03:07] the before or
[1:03:09] the old driveways were not in
[1:03:11] compliance. So, the slopes that we have
[1:03:13] now, they're all in compliance.
[1:03:15] Slopes to curb and gutter, curb and
[1:03:16] gutter to asphalt, everything is in
[1:03:18] compliance.
[1:03:18] >> And more than ADA and sidewalk.
[1:03:22] » Oh yeah, okay.
[1:03:23] >> It's a pain. I don't like doing these
[1:03:25] projects like this where we have to do a
[1:03:26] little patchwork.
[1:03:27] >> And mind you, we didn't do all the
[1:03:29] carbon gutter. We just did
[1:03:31] as little carbon gutter as possible
[1:03:33] because obviously the funding was uh the
[1:03:35] major
[1:03:36] >> Good job on doing it right. BYU replaced
[1:03:39] two ADA ramps last year. Not a good
[1:03:41] look.
[1:03:46] » Hey, well
[1:03:48] that's it.
[1:03:48] >> You can get them on that.
[1:03:50] >> Okay.
[1:03:52] I probably have more saying what happens
[1:03:53] in Provo than what happens at BYU.
[1:03:55] >> [laughter]
[1:03:56] >> Although I anecdotally we went to DC and
[1:03:59] we're down there walking around the ADA
[1:04:00] ramps by the Department of Justice,
[1:04:02] which is the one that sets all
[1:04:03] >> They need enforcement of the ADA.
[1:04:05] >> I bet.
[1:04:06] >> They [laughter] need enforcement. They
[1:04:06] don't need any of their own money.
[1:04:08] >> Okay.
[1:04:09] >> That's awesome.
[1:04:10] >> Okay, thank you again so much and we
[1:04:12] will see you next
[1:04:14] uh
[1:04:15] >> You still don't know the date next
[1:04:16] month?
[1:04:16] >> I do want the color pencils back. But
[1:04:18] your diagram is good.
[1:04:19] >> Color pencils back and we are adjourned.
[1:04:20] Thank you very much, guys.
[1:04:21] >> See you.