[This transcript was generated automatically from audio using AI and hasn't been reviewed by a person -- it can contain mistakes, including plausible-sounding sentences that were never actually said. Treat it as a starting point, not a verbatim record.]

[0:19] This is the runner board of commissioners meeting from Monday, February 14th, just a brief notice
[0:28] that we met in executive session preceding the meeting to discuss legal matters with council.
[0:37] And before we move to public participation, the commissioners have been hearing from many
[0:44] residents over the last several days.
[0:45] I'm making an assumption that many of you here are to speak at our opening public comment
[0:51] about a shop that opened in Wayne late last week.
[0:58] I would like to, before I invite the public, I'm going to ask our solicitor, John Rice,
[1:04] to just speak to the issue, lay a little groundwork, and then we'll open it up for everybody to speak.
[1:10] Have public comment, I give you five minutes.
[1:13] I'll sort of wave one minute warning when your time's running down, and then we'll move to the next person.
[1:19] But right now, John, would you address the issue?
[1:22] Yes, thank you, Commissioner.
[1:26] I guess we've all done a lot of research since last Thursday about
[1:33] Quote and the shop that opened up in downtown Wayne and the township and the townships
[1:43] co-department.
[1:44] And we've got a couple, I've gotten a couple requests on meetings and minutes and things
[1:49] like that.
[1:50] There was no meetings, there were no phone calls, there were no permits that were applied
[1:54] for prior to that shop opening up last Wednesday or Thursday I think it was.
[2:01] The, for those of you that live there, you know the windows were paper, township employees left business cards there, over a period of time, but there was no contact at all by anybody from that organization with the township until today.
[2:21] The last week when Mr. Kaczynski found out that the business was open, we were as surprised as everybody in this room, believing.
[2:31] And they were told that they could not open without permits.
[2:35] I think we all know there was a Starbucks air for a number of years and closed down in 2020.
[2:42] And there was definitely work done on the interior of the building for the new business.
[2:47] So they are shut down and then today, Kevin and I spoke with two representatives of the organization and they're headquartered in St. Louis and I guess they hire contractors locally to fit out these businesses and we went through what the requirements are and the requirements are pretty substantial.
[3:08] There's building permits, there's maybe electrical permits and might be demolition permits or zoning permits.
[3:14] business license permits, so all those things, they've agreed that they have to do that.
[3:22] They've also agreed to, that they're shut down until all of that is resolved.
[3:29] We've also made a request to remove the signage, which we think is also a code issue.
[3:37] But what the folks here need to know, we don't have any plans on what they did in that building yet.
[3:42] So until we get the plans and we see the floor plan, we don't know what the scope of what the permits are and what the requirements are.
[3:51] So we expect to get that in the next week or two, it's not something you fill out a form and file it.
[3:58] We need floor plans of work that's already been done for our code officials to review it and then make a determination of what complies and what doesn't comply.
[4:09] So that's where we're at on this, it's closed, where we've made a request to have the
[4:19] signage either covered up or removed, they will have to go to the design review board
[4:24] for the signs, there may be other approvals, but until they submit what they did, we can't
[4:31] really tell you exactly what, I mean, we know that there are some permits that they're
[4:36] going to have to get. But the way it works is you submit a permanent application and describe
[4:41] what you're doing. Our code people make a determination whether that's within code or
[4:46] not, whether it meets whatever the building or electrical permit requirements are or
[4:51] not. We tell them that and then they either fix it or they go away. So or they do something
[4:59] else.
[5:00] So that's the process in every township and every borough in this, in the state of Pennsylvania. They have that kind of process in place, some more detailed than others. So that's, and I don't want to spend any more time with that, but that's where we are as of today. Today's the first day that we've spoken to anybody from the organization regarding this use.
[5:26] So
[5:31] public comment is the opportunity for all of our anybody in the audience to come and
[5:38] speak.
[5:39] You can speak for five minutes.
[5:41] It is not a Q&A.
[5:43] Commissioners don't respond and staff and solicitor not to respond to public comment.
[5:50] If anybody has questions after the meeting, you can certainly ask questions after the meeting.
[5:55] But it's not a back and forth question and answer.
[5:58] It's public comment.
[5:59] There's a lot of people here that want to make public comment, but questions that you
[6:03] have, either me or Kevin Kaczynski can answer them after the meeting.
[6:07] Or tomorrow?
[6:08] I think John probably, one issue that hasn't been addressed is the ability to fan Cray Tom.
[6:15] So I'm sure that there are questions about that.
[6:20] Can you speak a little bit to what the municipality level can do or lack of action that we can
[6:26] take?
[6:26] Well, what we,
[6:31] he'll speak to that.
[6:33] I'm asking him to speak to whether or not the meet-as-pality has the ability to be on
[6:40] Kraton.
[6:41] Yeah, there's no state law that lets the township do that.
[6:45] There's some states that ban Kraton, I think there's six that have done that.
[6:50] There's some few municipalities throughout the country that have done that.
[6:55] The township's been in touch with the state rep.
[6:58] There's some pending legislation in the Pennsylvania legislature to do that.
[7:03] If folks are here interested in that as a separate issue from code compliance, which it is then that's where you need to go with the state legislature.
[7:17] I don't know of any townships in Pennsylvania that have passed any kind of legislation that would ban.
[7:24] Either that or some other type of a cannabis drug, but it's a state legislature issue.
[7:32] It's really not a local government issue at this point.
[7:35] And the township obviously doesn't have anything that specifically addresses that.
[7:39] I mean, there's six, there's six, there's six, there's six.
[7:44] I'm going to reiterate, we're not doing kill-eck, there's six states.
[7:48] Six states.
[7:48] We just have a lot of people who want to speak and we money here from everybody.
[7:51] I
[7:55] would love to take public comment.
[8:07] Hi, is it this microphone here, this one?
[8:09] Yeah, if you can get to the small one.
[8:11] Okay, hi there.
[8:11] How are we can hear you in the room?
[8:13] I'm actually here to represent 88 people
[8:15] that find the letter.
[8:16] And when I timed it out, it was about six minutes.
[8:19] So could you please allow me to go over a little bit?
[8:22] I'll give you a one minute warning.
[8:24] I'll see where you are.
[8:24] Okay, thanks so much.
[8:26] I'll try to talk quickly.
[8:28] Hi, my name is Kate Hart, and I live
[8:30] on Metabrux Circle in Ward 3 in South Wayne.
[8:33] I'm here this evening with a letter signed by 88 of my neighbors, local business owners,
[8:38] students and their families that are in opposition to the CBD cradum store that opened suddenly last Thursday in the old Starbucks location in downtown Wayne.
[8:48] I'm not here to discuss the pros and cons of CBD use because quite honestly, that's not the issue at hand.
[8:55] The issue here is how did a store that sells substances that are banned in 19 states,
[9:01] literally open illegally next to two schools, three nursery schools, and
[9:05] local churches without anyone knowing about it.
[9:08] I'm here today to point out the reason a store of this nature does not fit with the culture and
[9:12] character of our community, and to ask that we take measures to prevent stores of this nature in the future.
[9:18] Wayne is a charming, idyllic community.
[9:20] We pride ourselves on being family-friendly and a safe place to raise our families.
[9:25] Knee Shrank's Ragnar is the second most family-friendly place to live in Delaware County.
[9:30] We hold annual events like the Walk to Wayne, the car show, the truck zoo,
[9:34] trick-or-treating for local businesses, the fall festival, the night at the ballpark,
[9:39] the Christmas tree lighting, and fire prevention nights to make families feel welcome in part of our community.
[9:44] It's a tradition in middle school for children to walk to Wayne on Fridays and visit local establishments.
[9:49] Wayne is a community built on being a safe place to raise families.
[9:54] Having our children go to school yards from an establishment that sells
[9:58] Freedom and Delta 8.
[10:00] Does not make our town a safe place for our children. Until last week, I had never heard of these substances. After a quick Google search, I learned the following. Cratham is banned in six states, including states such as Vermont and Alabama that have legalized marijuana. In 2019, a teenager from Westchester died in a car crash in traditional East Town Township. He had taken Cratham, suffered a heart attack, and crashed his car. The Chester County Corner ruled his debt was from acute
[10:29] mute, mid to gyrene and toxication, an active ingredient and
[10:33] cratum.
[10:35] No other drugs were found in his system.
[10:37] Cratum is pain relieving drugs similar to opiates.
[10:40] The Mayo Clinic has declared it unsafe and warns these side effects.
[10:44] Dizziness, drowsiness, hallucinations, delusion, depression,
[10:48] breathing suppression, seizure, coma, and death.
[10:51] They caution.
[10:52] It's not exactly what level of cratum is toxic in people.
[10:55] But as with pain medications and recreational drugs, it's possible to
[10:58] over dose on it. The FDA warns that Cratum, which affects the same opioid receptors as
[11:04] morphine, appears to have properties that exposes users to the risk of addiction, abuse
[11:10] and dependence. In fact, Cratum's a product that people who are addicted to opiates use when
[11:15] they're trying to get off of opiates or high when they cannot find them. Delta-8 is another
[11:21] product sold at this store, which is even worse than Cratum. It's been outlawed in 19 states.
[11:26] The U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency considers Delta-8 in a legal controlled substance.
[11:31] The FDA warns it's important for consumers to be aware that Delta-8 THC products have
[11:37] not been evaluated or approved by the FDA to be safe in any context.
[11:42] They can be marketed in ways that put the public health at risk and should be kept out of
[11:46] reach of children and pets.
[11:47] Adverse events include vomiting, hallucination, trouble standing, loss of consciousness.
[11:52] In order to get these effects, dangerous household chemicals are added to the hemp, and
[11:57] this process is not controlled or regulated.
[11:59] I visited the CBD Crate & Web site this weekend, and was told it had to be 18 years old
[12:04] to view their products.
[12:05] When I drove by their store, their products were proudly undisplayed in the front window.
[12:10] These products included candy and soda made from Crate & CbD.
[12:14] These products were in a window covered with an 8-foot-tall marijuana leaf.
[12:17] The store had reclaimed wood shelving, faux marijuana plants, and a hip vibe akin to a local coffee shop.
[12:25] A place that teens would want to hang out at.
[12:27] Sadly, on Friday, the kids had already discovered this store as they walked into Wayne and took selfies in front of the giant marijuana leaf and added them to their snapchats.
[12:37] The store claims in their press release that they want to be part of the South Wayne community.
[12:42] But they in fact have no idea who the South Wayne community is because they sneakily and
[12:48] illegally open the store without the proper licenses or permits.
[12:52] They avoided letting the community know where their store was and what they were selling
[12:56] because they knew that we would oppose it.
[12:59] In March of 2020, Ward 7 residents in Garrett Hill fought successfully to prevent dispensary
[13:04] from opening.
[13:05] Had we been given notice that this establishment was going to open in South Wayne, we would
[13:09] voice are concerned as well. Instead, they play the game of asking for forgiveness, not permission.
[13:16] Having this store in our community normalizes drug use for our children, it makes these substances
[13:21] look hip and trendy and makes them easily accessible with curbside pickup. For now, for fun on a
[13:27] Friday night, our seniors in high school can pick up cratum sodas and Delta 8 salted caramels on
[13:32] their way home from school. Their own website warns users to take it slow when first using THCO and
[13:39] And let's customers know that this substance will show up on a drug test.
[13:42] When have we ever known teenagers to take it slow?
[13:45] We cannot bury our heads in the sand.
[13:48] We cannot wait for the PA legislature to make these substances banned.
[13:51] We have to be proactive and keep the store closed.
[13:54] We have to create ordinances to protect the small town, charm and community for the safety of our children.
[13:59] There are dozens of empty businesses in Wayne, what is to prevent other businesses like sports betting,
[14:04] adult stores and strip clubs from opening a Lancaster Avenue.
[14:07] The Board of Commissioners met in May of 2020 to discuss that they should impose regulations
[14:11] related to marijuana distribution for recreational use.
[14:15] They also discussed the idea of safe injection sites for heroin users.
[14:19] Radner is 15 miles away from one of the nation's worst cities for heroin and opiate abuse.
[14:24] We rank 5th nationally for overdose deaths.
[14:27] So now is the time for you to act.
[14:28] The CBD Cratham store should not open.
[14:30] We should not expose our children to drugs that are outlawed in 19 states.
[14:34] We need you to create ordinances now to protect the safety and character of our community.
[14:39] Our children deserve this from our leaders.
[14:42] I will email you the letters so you can see all the members that signed it.
[14:46] I'm also going to send it to the zoning ordinance people as well.
[14:49] Thank you.
[15:00] Mr. Stern, 202, Midland Avenue, this one. I want to thank the township officials and the commissioners for taking swift action to close a store that was opened without permits. I do appreciate that and recognize that it may take some time for you to work through the process as Mr. Rice laid out for everyone here. I also wanted to, I don't know the status of the business development person that the board was considering hiring,
[15:28] But recognizing that we do have a lot of empty storefronts in Ragnar.
[15:32] And recognizing that this business owner did not have to rent to this person.
[15:37] That it would be great if you do have this business development person,
[15:41] bring them on board quickly so that they can work with our other storefront owners,
[15:45] property owners to cultivate the kind of tenants and
[15:49] community businesses in Ragnar that we would all appreciate.
[15:53] Finally, a few years ago, there was a sign on a bar on Garrett Avenue in that was, there was a concern around the size of the sign that it had the proper approvals.
[16:05] And it was taken down rather quickly, sorry, appreciate the request for the signs to come down.
[16:10] And I would appreciate that follow through on this property occurs, well, when signs go up without permission, they should come down.
[16:18] Thank you.
[16:18] Clark
[16:27] Angle, I'm a rat in a township resident, sorry you're going to hear a lot of repetitive
[16:32] things tonight but I guess that comes with the territory.
[16:36] I'm here tonight to voice my concern and displeasure that the CBD Cradum store is opening
[16:42] or is attempting to open in the former Starbucks location in Wayne.
[16:46] Like many people I just found out about this on Friday, my initial reaction like so many
[16:51] other residents I know you've already heard from was shock, anger, disbelief and frustration
[16:56] I have four kids, three of which are still a school age who do or will when they're old or hang out in downtown Wayne.
[17:03] I immediately started doing online research on zoning regulations, permitting, researching who owns a property.
[17:09] Who owns the business, where permits file.
[17:14] What is craddle, what types of stores are allowed in the Wayne business overlay district?
[17:19] What qualifies as a specialty shop?
[17:21] How can this be allowed within 1,000 feet of two schools?
[17:24] How do you establish your drug-free school zone and on and on?
[17:27] After numerous hours of this, I thought to myself, why am I doing this?
[17:31] We have elected officials who volunteer to serve the community in this capacity.
[17:36] I realize some of you may be new to this board and I realize there are a number of question marks
[17:40] as to whether this business followed the proper channels for approval.
[17:44] Nonetheless, I still can't fathom how this is even a gray area in 2022.
[17:49] Other towns around the country have taken preemptive steps to make sure this doesn't happen.
[17:53] Why hasn't Radner?
[17:55] I'm sure I can't open a manufacturing facility or a
[17:58] topless bar in downtown Wayne.
[18:00] Someone had the foresight to make sure the zoning addressed
[18:03] that. Why not this?
[18:05] Why? This is not some sleepy under the radar issue.
[18:09] I never imagined that I would need to come to a board of
[18:12] commissioners meeting to make my opinion heard on an issue
[18:14] that should be a no-brainer when it comes to public safety.
[18:18] But I now feel that I do because of two things I learned online.
[18:20] One, the Cratum and some of the other products that this store sells are not safe.
[18:25] These gateway drugs can begin dicting and leave people to a more hardcore drug use.
[18:30] The more alarming thing was an article I read in the mainline Times from September
[18:33] 2021 that there's already been debate here at these board meetings, as far back as March,
[18:39] about a marijuana dispensary and a safe drug injection site, yet apparently no zoning
[18:48] regs of change to address it.
[18:50] Yet the most alarming thing I'm sad to say,
[18:52] or your comments, Commissioner Mulroney,
[18:55] in which you were quoted as saying,
[18:57] I caution us not to be the not in the my backyard township,
[19:01] especially when these aren't even laws on the book jet.
[19:04] Well, you're damn right.
[19:05] I don't want it in my backyard or anywhere
[19:08] on the face of the earth for that matter.
[19:10] If you think legalizing drugs or making it safe for people
[19:13] to inject so they don't get diseases from dirty measles
[19:16] is a good idea, or leads to less crime, you're delusional.
[19:19] These utopian ideas don't work.
[19:21] Just look at San Francisco.
[19:31] Hi there.
[19:32] I'm John Leach, your dollar.
[19:33] I live here in the township.
[19:34] It's actually born here in Rader as well.
[19:37] First I just want to describe what the store is.
[19:39] It's only been a few days, but they describe it as
[19:41] CBD Crattle, right?
[19:44] CBD is legal.
[19:45] You can buy CBD cream at Walgreens, you can buy it on Amazon.
[19:49] Right?
[19:50] It's not a drug.
[19:51] You can buy it anywhere, right?
[19:52] but the store has a giant marijuana sign on Lancaster Avenue as someone said
[19:58] it's got a five-foot marijuana plan
[20:05] So why would they be advertising with the marijuana leave if they don't sell marijuana? Right? CBD's kind of marijuana, but not really. The reason they do that is it's just a bait and switch. Right? They market with marijuana, making people think that it's a marijuana store. I took a picture of the sign of the front door. It actually had things like no medical card required.
[20:29] is on the front door, making it seem like you could buy legal marijuana there, but they
[20:34] don't sell marijuana there because it's illegal for them to sell marijuana there.
[20:38] The marijuana is just a bait.
[20:41] The marijuana sign, the tree, it's a bait.
[20:45] You go in the store and you say, give me marijuana and they say, I don't have marijuana, but
[20:51] try this cradle for the Delta 8 or any of these other drugs.
[20:56] It's a bait and switch.
[20:57] that's their business model like a scumball street corner drug dealer you go to
[21:03] your drug dealer and say give me some weed they say I don't have any weed but
[21:07] try this other stuff that's their business model yeah this is actually a very
[21:14] good parallel to oxy cotton right what was oxy cotton it started off as a legal
[21:19] drug they found a loophole in a way to sell legal oxy cotton to people who
[21:27] unsuspecting, they got hooked, cut and yelled at, they're coming to me, billions, and people got hooked on the drug, and, you know, we want them to have them with oxicotin.
[21:36] This is oxicotin 2.0, right? The market marijuana, you want it with cradum, as people said, is dangerous, male clinic, the first thing you see, when you Google it is cradum, unsafe, according to male clinic, right?
[21:50] right? It's it's ox cotton 2.0. And that's that's why I have to say.
[22:04] Comments.
[22:06] Hi. My name is Kathy Agnew, a 325.
[22:08] Hembroke Avenue, former Commissioner of the Third Ward.
[22:11] I am Ray. I'm sorry you're doing a great job.
[22:14] This is, of course, about the store, but in a larger context.
[22:19] So if you know my favorite, one of my favorite things is administrative
[22:22] of a stop. And so, and I think it should be applied in this case. This is not a business that
[22:29] applied for some permits and got some things wrong or made some misrepresentations that
[22:35] they were incorrect about. This is a business, a sophisticated business. They're out of
[22:39] St. Louis, they're not in somebody in the neighborhood who just decided to do this. This is a business
[22:44] that's counsel. They know that they're supposed to apply for things. I frankly don't, regardless
[22:50] So what I feel about this business, I would say this about if they were opening up an electric
[22:54] light store, you have come in and tried to create facts on the ground, which then they
[22:59] try to cure.
[23:00] I think when a business comes in like this and applies for nothing, absolutely nothing,
[23:06] they should not be permitted to cure.
[23:10] No matter what kind of business it is, it is in the front to the boards and the front
[23:14] to the townships, the front to everybody, all the staff that they don't have to do what
[23:18] everybody else has to do.
[23:19] So it was, like the term, which used great facts in the ground and then they'll work
[23:22] from there. It should be no. When they come in and then they try to do this to be no,
[23:28] not only if we not rely, we can't rely on what you said because you would even make
[23:32] representations. That should be basically parallel in a kin to a misrepresentation.
[23:37] They should be denied if they sue, then they go to court, you apply a minute away as a
[23:41] strum, administrative, a stompal, and or the court could say, we're going to use judicial
[23:45] a stable because you cannot use the courts to come in when you doped another government body.
[23:52] That's my defense, John.
[23:55] I've said it many times, I wish this board would adopt it in many other circumstances, so thank you.
[24:13] Hi, Charlie Bonneberger, South Aberdeen Avenue, I just want to thank former commissioner Agnew for really touching on some important points.
[24:20] I know several of you are new to elected office and probably don't have a lot of experience in a lot of these matters.
[24:26] And I know the community does not have a lot of experience in dealing with these kinds of matters.
[24:31] For more than 20 years I've spent every day of my life including an hour ago working with elected bodies at the municipal county and state level across the Commonwealth and across the nation.
[24:41] And I can tell you a few things from my experience that I think are relevant not just to you as commissioners but to my fellow residents.
[24:47] Number one, follow the money.
[24:50] It is hard to believe that a large corporation like this picked that spot out of the blue and
[24:56] dropped a pin in South Wayne.
[24:58] Doesn't happen.
[25:00] Number two, we got a great outline of the process from our solicitor for which I'm grateful, thank you, sir. But that is the process. And you are the policy makers who determine that process. It's time to look at changing the process in this case. And I think former commissioner Agnew gave us some great opportunities for you to take that action. Third, I would highly recommend that everyone who's interested in this matter, file public records request to this body as often as possible to get copies of those records that the solicitor talks about.
[25:29] as they come in, filings, applications, licenses, and so on, to go back to point one, which
[25:36] is follow the money.
[25:38] Somebody has been hired to get this through or will be hired to get it through.
[25:42] I find it hard to believe that no one was on the phone today that wasn't hired locally
[25:46] to do that.
[25:47] And it's important to follow that money to see where that money landed and brought us to
[25:52] where we are today.
[25:54] And the last point I'll make is that these types of things don't come out of left field.
[25:58] Again, there's always something behind the scenes, and I reiterate what I said previously, which is the rules are what they are.
[26:04] Again, our solicitor did a nice job outlining them, but you make the rules.
[26:08] And I think our community here today is letting you know that it's time to change those rules.
[26:12] Thank you.
[26:28] Good evening, my name's Heather Gill.
[26:30] I'm award three residents over 18 years, and I'm concerned about this new store that opened where the old Starbucks is relocated next to the beer yard.
[26:39] It is my understanding that the store open without any notification to the township.
[26:44] Without opening a certificate of occupancy, business license, approval from the design review board.
[26:50] Looked at signage, they also did not file for any miscellaneous permits such as electrical or plumbing.
[26:57] I find it interesting at the building owner who has owned this type of store before would not be knowledgeable on the type of paperwork that is required to open a business.
[27:05] I have various questions for the township and our commissioners.
[27:09] Does this business even meet the zoning requirements?
[27:12] For instance, there are two buildings on one property.
[27:15] Is there a recorded deed that allows for this to exist?
[27:19] If zoning approval is required, would the entire parcel have to be brought up to the zoning code?
[27:24] There's various aspects such as storm water management, impervious and building coverage,
[27:29] building parking setbacks, buffer requirements, et cetera.
[27:41] How would this business safely dispose of waste for the site, given what they sell?
[27:46] Has the township considered the traffic impacts that could occur along Lancaster Avenue?
[27:50] Has the township thought about if this business would negatively impact our police department, their staff, and budget?
[27:57] Most importantly, has the township considered the negative impacts of our local school students that walk to waste?
[28:03] The business is 532 feet away from St. Catharines and 647 feet from the Radner Middle School.
[28:11] Just last week, the high school held an assembly on the negative effects of various drugs,
[28:16] including drugs that are sold at this store.
[28:19] How can we advise our students of the negative effects of these substances,
[28:23] yet we allow this type of business into our community?
[28:26] One of the commissioners stated in an email that this is a matter for the zoning hearing board and not the board of commissioners and wished us luck.
[28:34] While I agree that this matter is for the zoning hearing board, as it appears it does not meet various zoning requirements.
[28:41] I was taken back that a commissioner does not believe this is an issue for the board.
[28:46] It certainly is an issue for the commissioners, local school district, police and
[28:51] raddener community, specifically residents of Ward 3.
[28:55] We elect commissioners to represent and listen to the concerns and needs of the community.
[29:00] We are here tonight asking for your help, asking to protect our kids and community.
[29:05] I look to both the zoning hearing board and
[29:07] commissioner to put forth resolutions, zoning amendments, and
[29:11] other measures in place to address this immediately.
[29:15] I will leave you with this tonight.
[29:16] Right, the owners of the store were quoted in an article in April 2020 stating, if the town doesn't necessarily want us there, we are not in the business of fighting to be there.
[29:27] I wish that store owner would live up to their word and relocate to a community that actually wants them.
[29:34] Thank you.
[29:34] Hello
[29:50] there. I'm Joseph Smith. I'm the director of St Mary's Episcopal Church on the corner
[29:56] of Lou Alla at Lancaster 104.
[30:00] There's a back lot behind my church and behind this establishment that kind of connects all of them together.
[30:09] I am just dismayed that something like this can happen. We've all been wondering, what's going to go in there? What's going to go into the old Starbucks?
[30:20] There's paper on the windows and we wait in anticipation and see a giant pot leaf.
[30:26] And then I was in a conversation, I passed by totally lost my train of thought with the
[30:33] conversation I was having because I could not believe what was going on in my community
[30:38] that I live in.
[30:39] I've only been here seven and a half years, but it certainly doesn't represent what I've
[30:44] seen.
[30:45] I think all of us have noticed over the last five or six years that there's a lot of polarization
[30:53] in politics.
[30:54] This commission will find that there's unity here, that wherever you fall, Democrat, Republican
[31:01] or somewhere in between, we are unified and not wanting this establishment in our community.
[31:09] I urge you to take action.
[31:13] All I've heard is, well, we legally can't do this or can't do that, and we don't want to
[31:17] get sued, and I want to say figure it out.
[31:20] Is
[31:31] there any additional public comment?
[31:40] Good evening.
[31:40] My name is Mary Beth Doyle and I live on Meadowbrook Circle.
[31:44] First off, I would like to wish the Radner Boys basketball team good luck in their playoff
[31:48] game against Lower Marion tonight.
[31:51] I've spoken to many people who wanted to attend this meeting, but they were going to the
[31:55] game.
[31:56] I'm sure many of us here would like to be at the game as well, but there are important
[32:01] matters to deal with in our town.
[32:04] and I told them that we would represent their views to all of you.
[32:08] But first I would like to share the views of some others in their own words.
[32:13] It's sneaky. First you start taking it here and there then every day, then twice a day,
[32:19] then the amount goes up and up with tolerance. It's pretty cheap, even when you're taking a lot.
[32:25] I just look around and wonder what it's like not to take anything.
[32:30] I see these people who have simple lives and they seem so happy.
[32:36] There's a lot of scratching, restless leg syndrome.
[32:40] You know what that is? Really uncomfortable.
[32:43] Feels like your legs want to be stretched out of your body.
[32:47] These comments are from people who took credit.
[32:50] a product that is to be sold in our old Starbucks building less than a quarter
[32:56] mile from St. Catherine of Siena School and Radner Middle School. The
[33:01] product comes in bags of salted carmels just like a bag of candy that our
[33:06] kids would buy at CVS and in bottles that look like Snapple just like our kids
[33:12] would buy at Wawa. The owners of this store proudly display these items in their
[33:17] Windows right now, right now, for our kids to see on their Friday walks through
[33:25] Rankway right now.
[33:30] And what about CBD? Oh that's supposed to help people
[33:33] right? Well a study published in the Journal of American Medical Association
[33:39] Pediatrics concluded the following. Cannabis use disorder is a common comorbidity
[33:45] and risk marker for self-harm, all cause mortality and death by unintended overdose and homicide
[33:52] among youths with mood disorders.
[33:56] My guess is that given the experiences of virtual learning, masks, and lack of normality
[34:02] experienced by most of our youth over the past two years, most of them now have mood disorders.
[34:09] So I have a few questions for you, our commissioners, as we meet about the opening of this CBD
[34:16] Cradham store.
[34:18] We have some information from the solicitor about how this happened, so what are you
[34:23] going to do to stop it?
[34:26] And please take that sign down every day that side is up another day, a child learns about
[34:35] these harmful products.
[34:37] Don't let this business in our town.
[35:03] So, making comments over there, I need you either at the mic, could make a comment, you can leave those with us for sure. Thank you.
[35:10] And that flyer, can you come to the mic?
[35:14] That flyer was at Jules Pizza, where our kids go in to get a slice of pizza. I'm 55 years old, and I've never heard of that product. Our 12-year-olds are 10-year-olds now know what it is, because of these flyers in our pizza shops.
[35:29] and that sign that is along like a Stravina.
[35:39] Good evening everyone.
[35:41] My name is Peggy Sakanik.
[35:42] I'm on South Wayne Avenue,
[35:44] but I'm reading on behalf of Jennifer Carter
[35:46] at St. David's Circle.
[35:48] On Friday, during the traditional
[35:49] Ragnar Middle School walk to Wayne,
[35:52] students were taking selfies and group photos
[35:54] in front of the Lord We Beath
[35:56] that adorns the new CBD
[35:57] Creative Store in downtown Wayne.
[36:01] The display in the window
[36:02] of the store featured candy and soda items
[36:04] containing CBD, creatin, and delta-8.
[36:08] The substances are legal, but with a quick Google,
[36:10] it is easy to grasp the creatin and delta-8
[36:12] are substances that we don't want easily accessible
[36:15] to teens in our community.
[36:18] Both are illegal in many states because of adverse outcomes.
[36:22] The marketing technique immediately reminded me
[36:24] of jewel vaping devices.
[36:26] Jewel makes these cigarettes that resemble flash drives
[36:29] and work by vaporizing a nicotine-based liquid.
[36:31] The devices are colorful and easy to hide.
[36:35] The liquid cartridges contained fun kid flavors such as bubble gum, mango, cotton candy.
[36:40] The company advertised on Instagram, you needed to be 18 to purchase.
[36:45] Thousands of teens in the US became addicted and still are.
[36:49] We won't know the long-term consequences of this disease for years to come.
[36:53] I do not know that this legal, easily accessible product has devastated many teens' lives with
[36:58] addiction and increased depression.
[37:01] The fact that the CBD Creative Store is opening within walking distance from our schools
[37:05] is especially concerning.
[37:08] The CBD Creative Store is actively marketing to minors based on their signage and displays.
[37:14] Many of the Radner High School seniors are turning 18 and are legal to buy items from the
[37:19] store and share with friends and siblings.
[37:22] This is a slip-free slope for our young generation.
[37:25] Just because something is legal does not mean it is not harmful.
[37:28] reach should not outweigh the well-being of our children.
[37:32] CBD is readily available across our nation and has been proven to help many medical problems.
[37:37] I'm not here to advocate for against CBD.
[37:40] However, did you know that CBD is sold as a supplement, not a medication?
[37:44] For this reason, we do not readily know what other elements the CBD you purchase might contain.
[37:50] The FDA does not regulate the safety and purity of dietary supplements so you can't be sure
[37:55] that the product you buy has active ingredients
[37:57] at the dose listed on the label.
[37:59] Yes, CBD is a helpful supplement to many,
[38:02] but it is not regulated, something to think about.
[38:06] Finally, according to many,
[38:08] this store did not go through the proper channels prior
[38:11] to popping up and should not be allowed to open
[38:13] in its current location near our schools.
[38:16] Wayne has a charming small town feel
[38:18] and this establishment does not meet our standards.
[38:21] A giant weed leaf display in the middle
[38:23] of our family-oriented town, excuse me, middle of our family-oriented township is depressing.
[38:31] Thank you.
[38:42] Is there any other public comment, please?
[38:46] My name is Louise Pal macho.
[38:48] I don't live in this town, but my mother did, and my daughter does, and my four grandchildren.
[38:54] Now, frankly, I think this whole thing is appalling, that this store managed to come in through
[39:00] the back door, so to speak, and get away with or tried to get away with breaking all the
[39:05] rules of this panel, or maybe you set up in this township, building codes and sanitary
[39:11] codes and whatever.
[39:13] The rate of fact that they tried that is quite interesting, so it says all about them
[39:19] right from the get go.
[39:21] But to have this kind of store in this environment is disgusting.
[39:26] Now, there's St. Catharines. There's schools all around. There's a walk to Wayne on Fridays
[39:34] these kids. I've driven in this town with these kids all over the place. They're all over
[39:39] the place, and they're just starting to learn their independence. They're just starting to
[39:44] feel like grownups coming into town with their little friends. And they walk down past the
[39:51] stored to go to Rita's water ice now.
[39:54] It's appalling, and you people should do something about it.
[39:58] It doesn't fit in this-
[40:01] There's enough influences with these kids on the streets today. They don't need this, right in their faces. A mother's walker, their strollers. I used to walk this tabloid all for them in my, in their strollers. This shop should not be in this town. It is a wrong fit. Not to mention, I feel it's a safety issue. And it's a safety issue because we don't know the environment of the people that need this kind of stuff.
[40:30] who's going to come into this town to buy it?
[40:33] Where are they going to come from?
[40:34] Who are they?
[40:37] You know, what dispositions do they have?
[40:40] Are they nutcases?
[40:42] Would they try to kidnap one of those little kids
[40:45] that walk by there?
[40:46] We don't know.
[40:48] And not to mention a situation where if some of them are smart,
[40:53] they're going to look around and see teenagers.
[40:55] There's a teenage population.
[40:57] So what do you think's going to happen?
[40:58] and some teenagers are going to get wise and said,
[41:00] we know, if I slip you some money,
[41:02] you'll go in and buy some for me.
[41:05] That's another slippery slope
[41:07] that could occur from this thing.
[41:08] It's outrageous.
[41:10] It doesn't fit in this town.
[41:12] And Garret Hill, I don't know what those people did
[41:14] in that town, but they got rid of it.
[41:16] It wasn't allowed to open there.
[41:18] I don't know whether they knew what they did.
[41:20] I sure would like to find out
[41:22] because if they got rid of it, why can't we?
[41:25] I mean, it's a little town, Garret Hill.
[41:28] Oh, it's not a big city, right?
[41:29] Am I right about this town?
[41:32] It's a little town.
[41:33] It's Rodner Township.
[41:34] Is what?
[41:35] It's our township.
[41:36] Oh, it's a, there you go.
[41:38] Very small business.
[41:39] It doesn't want to, why should our township point it?
[41:42] There's too many children in this town.
[41:45] There's new families with babies and strollers.
[41:47] I've been in this town long enough.
[41:51] It doesn't fit, guys.
[41:53] It doesn't fit.
[41:54] It's wrong.
[41:55] It really is.
[41:55] I
[42:07] just wanted to know if I could read a comment from another resident who was unfortunately
[42:11] out of state.
[42:12] Yeah, if you can let us know who you are and who you're waiting for.
[42:15] Correct.
[42:16] My name is Heather Gill.
[42:17] I'm a resident of Ward 3.
[42:18] I'm reading on behalf of Kelly Martin.
[42:20] She is a six-word resident.
[42:23] And she wrote, did Rader's design review board approve the 12-foot high marijuana leaf wraps
[42:28] in the old Starbucks location?
[42:30] How about the larger-than-life soda bottle and candy wrappers?
[42:33] If this was a serious store offering medicinal products, they would need the building to be a billboard to lure people in.
[42:41] Is this the size and type of signage approved in Ragnar for all businesses?
[42:45] Is this the new norm?
[42:46] Regardless of the legality of the project sold in the shop, did the design review board approve the signage?
[42:52] Is the property zoned for two separate commercial standalone businesses?
[42:56] Did business, their agent, or the property owner seek a variance?
[43:00] Is it grandfathered?
[43:01] Will the shop ever, if it's legalized in Pennsylvania, sell recreational cannabis?
[43:07] Have the questions been asked of the business owners or their agents?
[43:10] The chain currently advertises curbside pickup of their entire menu for
[43:14] their new Wayne location on Lancaster Avenue.
[43:17] Is this approved?
[43:18] The shop advertised on their truck and online that they are a cannabis dispensary.
[43:23] Is this an approved location?
[43:26] Radner's code allows for medicinal marijuana to be sold in a stand-alone location, a thousand
[43:32] feet from the school property in a building with two entrances, a loading dock, and the
[43:37] business owner must own the building outright with no mortgage.
[43:40] If this business is advertising themselves as a cannabis dispensary, shouldn't they meet
[43:45] these very simple requirements?
[43:47] Did the business owners of their agents inquire about Radner's zoning codes or certificate
[43:52] of occupancy?
[43:52] What steps did Radner Township take after Commissioner Jake Abel inquired about the rumor of their business on January 27th?
[44:01] Did Radner shut the businesses down?
[44:03] What are the next steps?
[44:05] Thank you for keeping all residents and parents in the loop on this.
[44:08] When Radner residents fought to keep the middle school in downtown Wayne,
[44:12] they likely didn't foresee a shock advertising products, which provide a similar
[44:17] are high to recovering heroin addicts as their neighbor to our impressionable middle
[44:22] schoolers, just steps away from Radner middle school, St. Catharines, the ABC House, St.
[44:28] Mary's and St. Catharines churches. Thank you.
[44:41] Is there additional public comment?
[44:47] Okay, well, we don't ask and answer questions of
[44:52] the public comment. I do encourage everybody to reach out to us individually. You can also
[44:58] So, reach out to staff.
[45:00] And in a different environment, we are able to answer more questions. So, you know, let's keep talking about it. Really grateful that everybody came out. If there's no other public comment, I'm going to move to our next item.
[45:18] Should I do five minutes to get that?
[45:33] I'm going to make a motion for a five minute recess to allow the room to restart. Second, all in favor? Aye.
[45:40] I will be back at 727.
[1:01:40] If we could get the commissioners to the day us, I'd like to call to order.
[1:02:55] Hi, good evening. We are going to reconvene.
[1:03:00] Again, I would like to thank the community for coming out, allowing us to hear in person face to face the concerns of the residents. And we will continue to do all we can to look into the issue and move forward.
[1:03:17] forward. We're moving on to the consent agenda, according to the Sunshine Act, I'm allowed
[1:03:27] to allow comment at the consent agenda because we vote on it, but I'd like to do public
[1:03:34] comment first, and then I'll ask commissioners if they would like to remove an item.
[1:03:39] Is there any public comment on an item on the consent agenda?
[1:03:46] Great. Are there any items
[1:03:49] that a commissioner would like to remove from the consent agenda.
[1:03:56] I'm not hearing one,
[1:03:57] so I would like to have a motion to vote on the consent agenda.
[1:04:05] So moved and second, I'll call the vote on favor, say aye.
[1:04:10] Aye.
[1:04:12] Thank you. It's approved unanimously.
[1:04:17] Bill, I'm going to move to reports of the manager.
[1:04:19] Chair.
[1:04:20] Okay.
[1:04:21] Happy to.
[1:04:22] Thank you, Madam President.
[1:04:24] There are two items to touch on quickly.
[1:04:26] I'll take care of item A and then I'm going to ask Mr. Tate to step through item B. Understand
[1:04:33] that we have some more lengthier items later on the agenda.
[1:04:36] We will make this quick but we're excited to announce to both the Board and the public that
[1:04:43] that thanks to some reshuffling of duties within the finance department.
[1:04:48] And thanks to Melissa Conn and her excitement and
[1:04:53] energy that she would like to dedicate towards the township's energy and
[1:05:00] Sustainability related projects, she stepped up and asked if we would consider her to step into the sustainability and grant coordinator role, or to take on those tasks. So we were able to fill another vacant seat in finance, which allowed some of Melissa's other duties to be reassigned and freed up her to the, freed up her band width to be able to tackle
[1:05:29] some of those issues, so we're excited to let the board and the public know that Melissa
[1:05:35] Khan will serve as the township sustainability coordinator and she will be working with
[1:05:41] both the EAC and the members of the green team as they relate to the renewable energy legislation
[1:05:49] that was adopted by the board last year, as well as any other projects that flow through
[1:05:54] the EAC in years to come.
[1:05:58] And at the same time, Melissa has already jumped in head first on several different grant opportunities.
[1:06:05] Some of those grants are around projects that we're already looking at.
[1:06:09] We're taking a look at potential funding to help with the comp plan, potential funding to help with some of our storm water projects.
[1:06:16] And funding perhaps to help fund some of the departmental capital as it relates to.
[1:06:24] some of the energy related projects that are in the to-do list from that plan.
[1:06:30] So she started working on some of those things already.
[1:06:33] And we're excited to, first of all, I'd like to thank her for volunteering to step into
[1:06:39] that role.
[1:06:40] And as I explained to her, I'm super excited that she's our person because Melissa is always
[1:06:48] someone who is very professional, detail-oriented, and organized, and any project that she's
[1:06:55] been asked to do, and her time here with the township has been very successful, so I'm
[1:06:59] excited to have that she's the one working on it because I know it'll be good.
[1:07:04] So we're happy to move forward with that.
[1:07:07] I know she's already met with the EAC and the green team, and they've gotten the ball rolling
[1:07:11] there as well.
[1:07:13] So that's the update there.
[1:07:16] And then transitioning to the 2021 Finance Recap, I'll turn it over to Mr. Tate.
[1:07:24] Thank you, Mr. White.
[1:07:26] And thank you, Madam President.
[1:07:27] A couple of weeks ago, the board was provided the information on a Finance Recap for 2021.
[1:07:36] Just real quick, I'm very happy to summarize that the results in 2021 did exceed our budget expectations.
[1:07:45] If you recall going into 2021, in the midst of the pandemic, we were a lot of uncertainty.
[1:07:51] And our budget, we held the line with taxes, fees, and very conservative projections,
[1:07:59] just to ensure that we were not over or underestimating the outcomes.
[1:08:05] And as it turned out, we did have the fund balance at the time to help carry us through.
[1:08:10] We were expected to dip into that fund balance to the tune of about $1.6 million.
[1:08:17] And a number of factors throughout 2021 helped us actually come out much the opposite.
[1:08:24] We were favorable by surplus of about 2.8 million, a swing of about 4.4 million in total.
[1:08:34] That's primarily the result of better than expected real estate transfer taxes.
[1:08:40] We saw a nice rebound in the business taxes, and there was some the federal American Recovery
[1:08:47] Plan Act monies, ARPA for short.
[1:08:50] That also helped to stabilize the budget.
[1:08:54] It's important to note that the federal money, and as we have talked about before,
[1:09:02] and
[1:09:02] fund balance policy.
[1:09:04] That money helped bring the general fund balance back into compliance with our policy.
[1:09:11] And along with the other results, we're building back our healthy reserve.
[1:09:18] So in the nutshell, that kind of summarizes how we did for the year.
[1:09:22] Any questions, I'll be happy to answer.
[1:09:26] Do any commissioners have questions for Mr. Tate?
[1:09:34] I'll just say congratulations to Melissa, I think that's great news.
[1:09:37] and congratulations on the great financial report.
[1:09:41] You know, it's a team effort, so thank you.
[1:09:43] Thank you.
[1:09:48] Great. Thank you.
[1:09:49] And congratulations to Melissa
[1:09:51] and congratulations to all of us for
[1:09:54] some nice financial news tonight.
[1:09:58] That is...
[1:10:00] Available on the website for a review on my right. Mr. Tate, is the financial report?
[1:10:11] That's
[1:10:11] already been published. That's posted. I'll double check and make sure we have it out there
[1:10:16] on the finance section. Yes, I think it was posted. So anybody who wants to see more detail,
[1:10:20] please check the raddener.com website okay we're on to committee reports I will
[1:10:32] the first item is the appointment of Angelica Carriana's to the board of
[1:10:37] health for a four-year term ending December 31st can I have a motion to
[1:10:43] appointment Carriana's to the board of health so moved and a second thank you
[1:10:50] is there any board comment is there any staff comment is there public comment I'll
[1:11:01] call the vote all in favor say aye I prove unanimously thank you moving on to
[1:11:08] the appointment of Andy Santilla to the parks and rec board for a five-year term
[1:11:12] ending December 31st 2026 do I have a motion to approve and a second and is
[1:11:22] is there any comment from a board of commissioners?
[1:11:26] Any staff comment?
[1:11:28] Is there any public comment?
[1:11:30] I'll call the vote.
[1:11:31] All in favor say aye.
[1:11:33] Aye.
[1:11:35] Approved unanimously.
[1:11:38] Moving on to resolution 2022-21.
[1:11:43] 130 to 132 Calvary's plain request final minor lot line change.
[1:11:51] Thank you, Madam President.
[1:11:53] Mr. Calvary's and his attorney, Mr. Cannelli, we're here last week or last meeting to present
[1:11:59] the plan in caucus.
[1:12:01] This is a very minor plan.
[1:12:02] It's literally moving a lot line on a piece of paper.
[1:12:06] The applicant has agreed to comply with other requirements.
[1:12:09] Within the review letters, there are a couple of waivers that Mr. Cannelli will step through
[1:12:14] again.
[1:12:15] Thank
[1:12:19] you.
[1:12:23] You may recall, as Steve mentioned, this is an existing two lots.
[1:12:30] All this happening here is that the lot line is being moved so that this garage will now
[1:12:36] entirely be on this lot here, which is termed lot 130, and then you have lot 132.
[1:12:43] Currently, there's no residence on either the lots.
[1:12:46] that's the three waivers had to deal with the traditional waiver regarding showing
[1:12:53] principal buildings on adjacent properties. There's one regarding contour lines and
[1:12:59] another one regarding large trees which if these lots were ever developed they would
[1:13:05] have to comply with those regulations for a grading permit application and for approval
[1:13:10] we're greeting permit. So as shown on the resolution is conditioned upon if a
[1:13:17] greeting permit is ever applied for that the contour lines and the large
[1:13:22] trees would have to be shown on the plan.
[1:13:30] So I'm going to make a motion. Do I have a
[1:13:34] second? Second? Is there any board comments?
[1:13:43] Any staff comments?
[1:13:47] Any public comments?
[1:13:50] Great. I will call the vote. All in favor say aye.
[1:13:53] Aye.
[1:13:54] Thank you, passed unanimously.
[1:13:59] The next item is 816 Gailor Road, request waiver of the stormowner management ordinance.
[1:14:07] Do I have a motion?
[1:14:10] So moved.
[1:14:10] And a second.
[1:14:12] Thank you. Is there any, Steve, are you going to leave this in?
[1:14:16] Yes. Thank you, Madam President.
[1:14:17] So, 816-gaylor-drive is wishing to perform some slight improvements, they cannot infiltrate according to our storm order ordinance requirements based on that request, based on that situation, the resident is required to come to the board to request a waiver from the infiltration requirement of storm order management.
[1:14:42] My name is Edward Stassen, a resident 816-gaylor drive.
[1:14:45] As Steve accurately pointed out, I'll look into the documentation.
[1:14:48] My ground, unfortunately, does not park.
[1:14:50] It got a zero in the park test.
[1:14:52] So looking for a waiver to basically allow to place a back patio on my-
[1:15:00] I went through major renovations over the past year through the pandemic. Throughout the process I did put in spreaders in the front yard and I did put in drainage. So any, I get a lot of runoff from Goshen road and everything above me. So we are trying to minimize the impact and the goal will be to put some vegetation in as well. But ultimately, the ground's completely impervious. Happy to answer any questions. So I don't feel any impact is being occurred.
[1:15:29] If I put more concrete or hard skate there, obviously,
[1:15:33] I'm below any other ratios that would be required
[1:15:36] for the amount of acreage that I have.
[1:15:41] So, just a quick question.
[1:15:43] Are you in a floodplain?
[1:15:44] I'm sorry.
[1:15:45] Are you in a floodplain?
[1:15:46] No.
[1:15:47] Okay.
[1:15:51] Good evening.
[1:15:52] Thank you so much for coming.
[1:15:53] Hi.
[1:15:54] Here I am.
[1:15:54] A little hard if you try.
[1:15:56] I know.
[1:15:56] It's hard.
[1:15:56] It's hard to put that thing there.
[1:15:58] So thank you so much for coming.
[1:16:00] So I'm Lisa.
[1:16:00] I'm your Lisa Braskian, your commissioner.
[1:16:02] I live on Goshen Road, yeah, we've met, so sorry, it's my water coming down, I apologize
[1:16:07] for that. So I just have a quick question. So you already put in spreaders and you put
[1:16:13] in, so there's drainage in the back, and I know in the front as well, and that was part
[1:16:17] of the project. I mean, you basically, I know you built on a footprint of an existing
[1:16:22] home, and it looks beautiful, you've done a really nice job.
[1:16:25] It's still going, but it looks nice. But you already did some initial storm water as part
[1:16:30] of that project and that's what Steve is referencing that you did come before us before so so the patio was the patio part of your initial plan and you just are getting to it now is that or was this in addition to your plan.
[1:16:44] There's an existing slab that's there that we're just going to go over it. I believe at one time we did discuss and I thought there were plans in the office. I can't find them where my architect did discuss that there was going to possibly an outbuilding that I would still have to come for approval for a building permit.
[1:17:00] But in those numbers and when she did the calculations on what we would have been there it would be a calculated and a spreader.
[1:17:11] Okay, anyway.
[1:17:12] What I do have in the backyard also is the large drain because when I bought the house I was unaware it just constantly got flooded in its prior porch.
[1:17:21] So I do have a large drain there that does collect the runoff.
[1:17:24] So, in the last year that I've been there, I've never had it issue.
[1:17:28] I don't see any erosion.
[1:17:30] So, that drain, if we just move it forward, which we will, will capture any water.
[1:17:35] And I don't see any impact that will occur.
[1:17:38] You're increasing the drain, like you're increasing that space, the size of the drain or?
[1:17:43] The drain is, I don't like it this thing to go.
[1:17:45] I don't know the other guy had it.
[1:17:49] Ian, can we get the overhead?
[1:17:51] Yeah.
[1:17:52] Thank you.
[1:17:52] I just want to be recognized, you've already done, I think, a lot of stormwater mitigation to the property.
[1:18:00] So in orange here, there are two large drains I put in the backyard, two feet wide by probably a total linear foot of 200 feet because of the runoff that we were getting.
[1:18:10] So we brought in dirt to slow it down, we planted grass and in the yellow in the front, you can see that's the spreader.
[1:18:17] So everything from the drains, everything from the gutters, everything goes through the system and ultimately filters through the spreader system.
[1:18:23] So even though the ground doesn't perk, the goal was let's just slow down the water.
[1:18:30] So that's everything we've done and probably everything we're really able to do.
[1:18:34] Yes, so your property, you're like below a hill and then on a hill.
[1:18:38] So you can just slow down here.
[1:18:40] Okay, that was my only question.
[1:18:42] I just wanted everyone to be aware you already have done stormwater mitigation on the property
[1:18:46] and whatnot.
[1:18:47] Okay, great.
[1:18:48] Thank you very much.
[1:18:50] But just to clarify, no additional, you're not, I think I heard her question was.
[1:18:56] You're not expanding the water management system.
[1:18:59] Do you feel what you have is sufficient for the new piece that you're adding?
[1:19:03] Correct.
[1:19:04] Okay.
[1:19:06] But we are expanding the hardscape, or it's kind of fun to use the word impervious coverage
[1:19:12] when you're dealing with something that doesn't park, which is by definition impervious.
[1:19:15] So putting more papers down.
[1:19:20] Are there any other commissioner questions?
[1:19:24] Yeah, I just have one.
[1:19:26] So I know it's all impervious by testing,
[1:19:28] but the impervious coverage is how we zone things around here.
[1:19:33] So you're still staying under that 20%.
[1:19:36] Yes.
[1:19:37] It's what I have something very close, but you're still under it.
[1:19:39] Yes. The numbers were providing what was submitted.
[1:19:42] So we sit on an acre of land.
[1:19:43] Okay. Okay. Thanks.
[1:19:48] Anyone else?
[1:19:50] Do they have any staff comments?
[1:19:52] Is there a public comment?
[1:19:55] I'll call the vote.
[1:19:57] All in favor say aye.
[1:19:59] Aye.
[1:20:00] Opposed?
[1:20:03] Opposed? Opposed? Thank you. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So question, I guess. How do I proceed now? You're going to talk to Mr. Northeaning. We can talk to Mars, sir. We're going to process your grading permit. And once that's that you can apply for your building permit for all the arts. I'll give you a call tomorrow. That's fine. Very much. Okay.
[1:20:25] Moving on to item E resolution 2022-11 approving funding in an amount not
[1:20:30] to exceed $200,000 to be paid from the township's contractually obligated set aside for reimbursement
[1:20:38] to the Willis Park Preserve for installation of a fire sprinkler system and fire panel
[1:20:45] at the Willis mansion.
[1:20:50] Can I get a motion?
[1:20:52] So moved.
[1:20:53] In a second.
[1:20:54] So moved.
[1:20:55] Thank you.
[1:21:01] So can somebody on staff lead us in on this one?
[1:21:05] The
[1:21:07] commissioners last meeting you approved, it was brought up that the WPP had requested that $200,000.
[1:21:16] And the solicitor was directed to create a resolution memorializing that.
[1:21:23] The Township has an existing lease with the WPP and it provides for funding.
[1:21:29] this is part of that funding that's been requested, the $200,000.
[1:21:37] And I know that the willow executive director and board members are here from the Willow Park
[1:21:44] Preserve to commissioners have any questions for staff or we could bring up a board member.
[1:21:55] So I guess this would go to either Will or Krista or maybe power to this Howard here.
[1:22:02] Yeah, sorry.
[1:22:03] Good morning.
[1:22:04] Yeah, I wanted you to come up with just one or two questions.
[1:22:11] But before I start, let me just ask a housekeeping question.
[1:22:15] We issue, if this is approved, and we issue the $200,000 from our bucket.
[1:22:24] Do we write them a check and then they can do whatever they want with it?
[1:22:28] I mean, do they pick the contractor?
[1:22:29] Does it come to us?
[1:22:30] Who pays the contractor?
[1:22:32] Who pays the person that installs?
[1:22:34] It's their contractor.
[1:22:36] So they pay them.
[1:22:37] Correct.
[1:22:38] Okay. Good.
[1:22:38] One of you come up because I got to have a question.
[1:22:41] So I'm going to piggyback on that.
[1:22:43] Are we, because it says to not to exceed, are we reimbursing the work that's done?
[1:22:48] We're not handing them a $200,000 check, but they would submit their invoices for reimbursement up to that amount, am I right?
[1:23:00] Well, I think what Bill had recommended on the funding and it's in the resolution so there'll be an initial, once we see what the estimates are, there'll be an initial payment reimbursement payment from the township in a half of what the estimated cost is.
[1:23:16] and then any final payment would be upon receipt
[1:23:19] of the actual invoices for the work that gets completed.
[1:23:24] Thank you.
[1:23:25] I think Kristin now.
[1:23:27] Kristin, can I ask a few to come up?
[1:23:29] I can't follow up on it.
[1:23:30] I'm going to start with you.
[1:23:32] Thank you.
[1:23:35] Thanks.
[1:23:38] So while back you had a slate fundraiser,
[1:23:42] is that correct?
[1:23:43] That's correct.
[1:23:45] The whispering patio is that correct?
[1:23:47] The whispering terrace, yes.
[1:23:49] And how much was raised?
[1:23:51] So we've launched the great slate challenge in 2020,
[1:23:56] and the goals were to raise 500,000 and the project scope
[1:24:01] and objectives, and I'll read off the copy
[1:24:04] that was in the website and all the marketing collateral
[1:24:07] that went out to prospective donors.
[1:24:09] It was, please help us in raising 500,000 to build a new
[1:24:13] with Plain Terrace and to restore and expand our existing terraces, and it goes on to describe the project scope.
[1:24:21] So we found ourselves about a year later in 2021 having raised 6% of those goals.
[1:24:29] I was a contributor to the board members, or I personally contributed over $2,000 to that campaign, which put me in the top five.
[1:24:36] But we decided since we were at 6% a little over 30,000, that was enough funding to accomplish what was
[1:24:43] part of the scope which was the restoration of existing terraces but there was still a big gap
[1:24:49] between the goals to be able to construct a new terrace. So the board made a decision to put
[1:24:56] to pause on it while we just reassess what we can-
[1:25:00] We can do differently to achieve the project's objectives. We weren't comfortable asking donors to contribute through this specific campaign until we had a clear path forward on how we were going to reach the goals.
[1:25:11] So let me just make my point here.
[1:25:14] So I think everyone here wants to see you guys succeed.
[1:25:18] I mean, I want to see it succeed more than anything.
[1:25:20] You spend time this board, this board, your board,
[1:25:27] and the tang, and it is a true treasure of the township.
[1:25:32] My concern is that you raised,
[1:25:35] and this is coming from the resident who made a donation.
[1:25:42] You raised $30,000, it's a significant amount.
[1:25:45] I understand that we had COVID, and you give money,
[1:25:50] you want your name on a slate that you did it,
[1:25:53] and it's not there.
[1:25:56] So my concern is that we're gonna issue money, $200,000.
[1:26:01] And if that money may, I believe that it probably will,
[1:26:06] but based on this trend that you're raising money
[1:26:08] from the public, from I don't know, 30, 40, you know, those people, and that money didn't go.
[1:26:14] It really didn't go for what it was supposed to do.
[1:26:17] It was supposed to be a slate, it was supposed to be on the whispering terrace.
[1:26:20] I mean, you can say, well, we had to change it, but if I gave that money, and this is, you know, coming in, and I'm just
[1:26:27] regurgitating what I've heard, I would be what's, you know, upset, concerned, and now I'm concerned that
[1:26:36] that we're going to issue $200,000, you're going to get it and I believe that you're going
[1:26:42] to write those checks but at this point now, I'm just, you know, I mean, I'm looking
[1:26:48] at the, all I can do is look at the track record and yeah, yes, no, I do have a question.
[1:26:54] Okay.
[1:26:55] I mean, I'm with the $200,000 vote.
[1:26:57] I get it, but if you could ask a question, pardon?
[1:27:00] I can ask a question.
[1:27:02] No, it's commission or comment.
[1:27:03] And I'm making my comments.
[1:27:05] And my comments will be a comment and or a question.
[1:27:08] Thanks.
[1:27:09] So my issue is that this money doesn't get there or part of it gets there.
[1:27:21] And now we're in a situation where I don't know.
[1:27:25] So, if you want to respond to that, if you want to, I do, thank you, because there's nothing that we value more than the trust of the community and those that would give us a donation.
[1:27:37] I would respectfully disagree with you that the money didn't go for something that was within the project scope.
[1:27:44] The, you know, purchase of slate was never intended to be little.
[1:27:48] Your name was not going to be on a slate that would, that you would go and you'd walk on the new terracing, you would see your name engraved on a slate.
[1:27:57] It was never intended to be that literal, but I will say that nothing that I do or that the decisions that we make are always done in consultation with third parties.
[1:28:07] I can have my own opinion about what was in scope or not in scope, but we always consult with a third party accounting firm.
[1:28:14] We'll go through an independent audit and review with another firm, and then we consult with our council.
[1:28:21] So until we check all those boxes, we don't make determinations about restricted funds.
[1:28:30] Okay, it just seems to me that you had a fundraiser based on one thing, and
[1:28:35] And I just, my opinion from what I've seen is that it, that I, I, misrepresentate,
[1:28:43] there was issues with COVID, I get it.
[1:28:45] But it just didn't seem to go there in the manner that, from what I read, that if I gave money and I didn't,
[1:28:53] but I know someone that did, that was just, yeah, concern.
[1:28:56] And that raises that red flag.
[1:28:58] Well, we certainly want anybody that had a concern to come to us.
[1:29:01] We did talk about this in our April newsletter.
[1:29:03] There's probably things that we can do differently and better in terms of the communication.
[1:29:10] And we are always looking to improve.
[1:29:12] But again, the scope said to build a new whispering terrace and to restore and
[1:29:17] expand our existing terraces.
[1:29:19] And that was within all of the marketing collateral that we use for this particular campaign.
[1:29:24] Would you be open to having the township pay the bill?
[1:29:28] You contract it out and having the township right to check her now.
[1:29:33] So the township is going to just give you $200,000, so that's correct.
[1:29:37] Yeah, and the way it worked, I would expect that it would work the way it did when the township reimburse us for startup costs.
[1:29:45] We will, it's a reimbursement, or it was a reimbursement.
[1:29:49] Is this going to be a reimbursement or this, or not?
[1:29:50] This would be a reimbursement, we will get a check, we will execute the project and we'll get a check from the township similar to what was done with the startup costs.
[1:29:59] I'll be more.
[1:30:00] I'm not comfortable with who's a reimbursement. Well, we're going to get a check. Showing the reimbursements in the resolution. So it is a reimbursement? Yeah. I thought you said that they're going to get a check. No. We're going to cut them a check and then they spend it. No. Okay. There's a check and balance. That was never said. Yeah. Yeah. There's a. That's what I heard. That's what I thought I heard. You got to say. If you look at the at the resolution language, it does allow for an initial installment payment.
[1:30:29] will be made to the Willis Park Reserve in the amount of one half of the estimated cost for
[1:30:34] the improvement to be made at the start of the project. That follows upon where it says that it
[1:30:39] will be a reimbursement up to and not to exceed $200,000. So they'll get some upfront to be able to
[1:30:46] engage. I would imagine their contractors. Yeah. And then submit invoices for reimbursement.
[1:30:53] And I wanted to reiterate that we, again, we put it on pause just because of the gap
[1:30:59] between where we were and where we wanted to be.
[1:31:02] We are still looking at other methods to get their silent fundraising, perhaps finding
[1:31:06] a matching donor.
[1:31:08] It's just still, I just want to make clear it's still a priority of our board to have a
[1:31:11] new table.
[1:31:12] How much of that 30,000 has been spent?
[1:31:14] We spent 23,000 on the refurbishment, which included installing new flagstone and we took
[1:31:22] out what were flower beds and trees and installed new flagstone and then refurbished the existing terrace.
[1:31:28] And then we have done the grading that would support an eventual terrace.
[1:31:33] Welcome to terrace.
[1:31:34] Thank you.
[1:31:37] Does anybody else have questions for Ms. Hickson?
[1:31:42] No, you're good.
[1:31:43] Thank you.
[1:31:44] Any other questions or comments from the board?
[1:31:48] Well, I just have one comment and everybody knows it, but just so the public knows it as well is that in order to get
[1:31:54] But they're certificate of occupancy, they have to have these sprinklers.
[1:31:57] So they're totally stalled as far as doing anything in the building of any size, unless
[1:32:05] this sprinklers go in.
[1:32:10] Is there any staff comment on this issue?
[1:32:13] They're public comment.
[1:32:15] I'm going to call the vote.
[1:32:16] All in favor say aye.
[1:32:18] Aye.
[1:32:19] Any nay?
[1:32:20] One nay from Commissioner Abel.
[1:32:23] Congratulations.
[1:32:28] Moving to the next item on the Agenda Resolution 2022-15, authorizing the award of Construction
[1:32:37] Contract B-21-012 for Lancaster Avenue Sanitary Sewer System Replacement Project to
[1:32:45] A.J. Jurek Incorporated, and allowances for contingency and construction inspection and
[1:32:53] services in the total amount of $370, $2,610 to be funded through the sanitary sewer fund.
[1:33:01] Do I hear a motion to approve and a second?
[1:33:07] Okay, thank you.
[1:33:09] Steve, can I ask you to lead us in on this one?
[1:33:12] Yes, Madam President.
[1:33:13] So as we have in many areas of Wayne, this is a very aging sewer line that runs along Lancaster
[1:33:19] Avenue and then goes through our park.
[1:33:21] We've had recent development in that area, and we need to be able to accommodate that development with, we need to replace these aging lines.
[1:33:30] So this line runs through the Veterans Park and connects to another existing line, and it will take the flows from the Emerson development across the street.
[1:33:42] And ultimately through another project, the 20 unit condos down at 427 East Lancaster.
[1:33:49] and age age work has been vetted they've been around a long time so the projects
[1:33:55] approximately 298,000 contingency of approximately 44,000 and the inspections
[1:34:01] for 29,000 so we're asking for approval of all the above thank
[1:34:08] you are there any
[1:34:09] questions or comments from commissioners okay
[1:34:17] is there any public comment I will
[1:34:22] vote. All in favor say aye.
[1:34:24] Aye.
[1:34:26] Is that unanimous? Thank you.
[1:34:30] Moving to item G resolution 2022-14.
[1:34:36] I thought I just read that.
[1:34:38] Sorry. Authorizing the award of construction contract.
[1:34:42] B21-010 for the Gulf Creek Stream Bed's stream bank
[1:34:48] stabilization at 210 Gulf Creek Road.
[1:34:51] project to Stonewood Landshaping Incorporated and allowances for contingency and
[1:35:00] Section, inspection, and services in the total amount of $90,600 to be funded through the stormwater fund. Do I hear a motion to approve or? We'll just a motion to do I hear. Well, it's a motion to approve. Thank you. Sorry. Second, sorry. And is there any lead in from you on this, Mr. Norseany?
[1:35:29] Thank you, Commissioner.
[1:35:30] So this, we have a 1950s ease of an agreement with this property owner,
[1:35:36] and regarding the retaining wall in the property, retaining wall was installed several years ago.
[1:35:42] There was some additional erosion at the tail end of the wall, so this is to extend that wall
[1:35:47] approximately 10 feet to add bolstering rip wrap to the base of the existing retaining wall,
[1:35:54] and address some other areas of erosion along that property.
[1:35:58] And again, this is for the full construction, inspection, and contingency that we're requesting.
[1:36:06] So this is an easement, but the project is on the property of the homeowner?
[1:36:14] Correct. So in the early 50s, the township received an easement for a storm.
[1:36:20] So we're pipe that empties run off from the Gulf, from the cricket lane area, down this property.
[1:36:27] And very specifically it said in the easement that we are required to protect this property's
[1:36:33] stream bank.
[1:36:34] So we did a major project there several years ago and I think this will tie up some additional
[1:36:42] erosion that is concerned as well as bolster upwards there.
[1:36:46] Thank you.
[1:36:47] Any other board members?
[1:36:49] Comments?
[1:36:52] Anything else from staff?
[1:36:55] they're public comment. I will call the vote. All in favor say aye.
[1:37:01] Aye. Opposed?
[1:37:03] Last unanimously. Thank you.
[1:37:06] On to Resolution 2022-20 authorizing the payment of change order number 18 to road con ink
[1:37:14] for the modification of stormowner base number 1 for the Radner cap trail project in the amount of 23,973
[1:37:23] $8.41, and I get a motion to move to the second.
[1:37:28] Thank you, Mr. Norseini, I think this is you again.
[1:37:32] Thank you, Commissioner, so hopefully everybody's got to look at the tap trail.
[1:37:36] It's complete, it looks great, and people are using it.
[1:37:39] You may also note that Stormwater Management System number one, which is near the intersection of Lancaster Avenue and
[1:37:47] Ragnarchester Road doesn't drain well, and this is another issue with the infiltration rates.
[1:37:53] So, working through the conservation district and the EEP, we asked for the ability to fix this basin.
[1:38:04] Which really will entail running a pipe from that basin to stormwater management system number two, which does function properly.
[1:38:13] And the school district, I've been in touch with Bill Dolan, he's very much aware of what this project is.
[1:38:20] So, this is to get that project completed by the existing, by the contractor that did the tap trail.
[1:38:29] Thank you, any commissioner comment?
[1:38:36] So I just have a quick question, Steve.
[1:38:39] So it says that there was, there's a 6,000 and change.
[1:38:44] Is that going to come, so that's outside the contingency?
[1:38:48] Are we like tapped out on the top trail?
[1:38:52] Thank you, Commissioner, for picking up that oversight of mine.
[1:38:56] So as you could recall, we did have considerable change orders for the tap trail due to unsuitable soil.
[1:39:03] So yes, this takes us up, completes the contingency and we're requesting $6,000 to be funded outside of that contingency to complete this work.
[1:39:12] And I will, I'm going to really hold my breath when they say this, but this should be the last time I appear before this board.
[1:39:19] And Mr. Royce had perked up requesting change orders for the tap trail.
[1:39:24] This is to complete the trail.
[1:39:26] Did somebody bring the champagne?
[1:39:28] Yeah, we'll take an oath on that.
[1:39:33] So will that come from the general obligation bond, where we initially funded some of that trail from?
[1:39:41] Like where is it 6,000 going to come from the general fund?
[1:39:46] Where do we plan?
[1:39:47] They'll take general fund?
[1:39:48] Well, in this, yeah.
[1:39:51] So the 6,000 will come out of the general obligation bond fund.
[1:39:55] And as we've done with the other projects through the years,
[1:39:58] the variances...
[1:40:00] One project help others out. At the same time, the project funds are invested, so there's interest earnings to be used for situations like this, too. So the fund isn't is in good shape. This is something that it can absorb without a problem. So long as it's the last one. And Mr. Narcini seems to have promised that this will be the last one. Okay, so it is from the 2019 bond, but we still I know that there were some projects that went under.
[1:40:28] So we are kind of still status quo when it comes to that funding for that overall.
[1:40:36] All right.
[1:40:37] And just to elaborate, so I presented at the friends of Harvard Trails, they had an annual
[1:40:44] form every year where municipalities were all over present about their trails and I presented
[1:40:50] about everything that is great going on here in Radner and people were very impressed with
[1:40:56] our commitment to the trails, our commitment to just, you know, continuing what is, I mean,
[1:41:01] the tap trails definitely a continuation of other trails from other parts of the area.
[1:41:08] The work we're going to be doing at the Radner Trail, the extension there, which is part
[1:41:12] of the Heinz, the Heinz-Porge trail, I'm forgetting the exact name.
[1:41:18] But part of the Rails to Trails project, so everyone was very impressed.
[1:41:22] And Mr. Anderson and Mr. Capella and everyone else, our public works team, Mr. White, everyone who has worked on the funding for all these trails.
[1:41:31] You should be very proud.
[1:41:33] We really stack up well when it comes to the work that's being done.
[1:41:37] So, thank you all very much.
[1:41:41] Any other commissioners?
[1:41:45] Any comment from staff?
[1:41:47] And is there public comment?
[1:41:50] Seeing none, I'll call the vote.
[1:41:51] All in favor say aye.
[1:41:52] I pass unanimously, thank you, and on to ordinance 2022-02, the introduction of handicapped space at 1-3-1 plant avenue.
[1:42:07] Do I hear a motion?
[1:42:10] In a second.
[1:42:11] Thank you.
[1:42:14] Mr. Norseini, is this also you?
[1:42:21] But I can take.
[1:42:22] Chief, there he is.
[1:42:29] This is in reference to we have previously reviewed that they have submitted to the highway patrol unit the needed paperwork, which is a signature from a physician relating the medical need for this.
[1:42:40] We are requesting the Board of Commissioners to enact this ordinance, please.
[1:42:44] Thank you very much.
[1:42:45] Is there any board comment?
[1:42:48] Anything else from staff?
[1:42:51] And is there public comment?
[1:42:54] I will call the vote.
[1:42:55] All in favor say aye.
[1:42:57] I pass unanimously. Thank you. And there are the remaining items on the agenda are discussion
[1:43:09] and direction on several items that are coming up in front of from staff to the board.
[1:43:17] And I would like to ask Township Manager Bill White to start us with item J discussion
[1:43:23] and direction to staff regarding comprehensive planning?
[1:43:30] Absolutely, just quickly with this item as well as the redistricting, given the fact that
[1:43:39] there are two large, very public facing projects that we don't do very often, we want
[1:43:47] to add them to tonight's agenda to make sure we have this discussion and ensure that the
[1:43:53] The actions we're taking are in line with what the board's expectations are.
[1:43:57] So that's why we added them to the agenda.
[1:44:00] Specific to the comp plan if you'll recall at the January 24th meeting,
[1:44:04] the board authorized us to solicit RFPs for interrested firms.
[1:44:11] In that legislative item, we had included a proposed schedule which I actually instead of trying to guess.
[1:44:23] So if Kevin, if you could just quickly step through what that schedule was and then I'll take it up from there.
[1:44:28] Absolutely, thank you Mr. White.
[1:44:30] When we prepared this proposal for the agenda item for your last meeting,
[1:44:35] we had a tentatively scheduled laid out that would have put responses for
[1:44:41] the RFP due into the township March 23rd with hard copies on March 24th.
[1:44:47] A question and answer period which would have closed on March 10th.
[1:44:52] And then we would have provided answers to that March 16th with an anticipation of a special meeting in front of this board
[1:45:00] Middle to the end of May for two to three consultants that were selected to make presentations in front of this board. And as part of that process, we were looking at establishing a comprehensive committee, selection committee that would consist of three members of the Board of Commissioners, Mr. White, Mr. Narsini, Melissa Khan, which we mentioned earlier is a sustainability coordinator. And myself, we would vet
[1:45:29] That's the proposals coming in, make a short selection and that short selection would then be passed on to this board for final presentations and consideration.
[1:45:40] We said we had a tentative schedule, but through Melissa's work, we've identified some granting funding opportunities that may put us slate the lay and when this RFP goes out, we're learning that there are specific steps with this funding that we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves.
[1:45:57] Otherwise, we could either miss out on funding or a portion of that funding.
[1:46:02] So Melissa has attended some webinars on those.
[1:46:06] I think one last week and one today, we're going to gather the research to see if these are grants that we can apply for that can possibly pay for up to 50% of the funding needed for the redevelopment of this comp plan.
[1:46:21] Thank you, Kevin.
[1:46:24] So two things.
[1:46:25] First of all, that caught not necessarily a schedule, but
[1:46:31] series of events that get us from RFP to decision on the consultant.
[1:46:37] That's one step.
[1:46:38] That's obviously the first step.
[1:46:40] And that recommendation was made after discussing and
[1:46:45] internally looking at what other communities did.
[1:46:46] So we want to make sure that the board's on okay with that proposal.
[1:46:51] And then the second part of it is making sure that there's an understanding between the board and staff on.
[1:46:58] Once we have the firm selected what, how does the how does the comp plan proceed moving forward in terms of the public meetings, specific areas that we talked about one earlier tonight.
[1:47:12] specific things that the board would like to see addressed, making sure that we're incorporating all of the different elements.
[1:47:21] Again, understanding that we don't do this very often, so we want to make sure that when we do it now, we do it right.
[1:47:30] We do it comprehensively, and it's something that we're all satisfied with in the end.
[1:47:36] So those are the two things.
[1:47:38] First of all, making sure that the board is okay with the process
[1:47:40] and selecting the firm and then, you know, getting the board's thoughts
[1:47:45] in direction on what you see the process being once that firm selected.
[1:47:52] And I'll add one more qualifier to that is the,
[1:47:59] ultimately when we select a firm,
[1:48:01] And part of our expectation of that firm is to shepherd us through a process.
[1:48:08] So getting an understanding tonight will ensure that we're incorporating in those documents
[1:48:13] and are communicating to the firms accurately what you want the larger process to look like.
[1:48:20] So that's why tonight would be a good night to get that direction as we're finalizing these
[1:48:26] documents to move forward.
[1:48:28] Can
[1:48:32] I ask a question, how interactive is this going to be with the residents?
[1:48:36] Would you bring out or to over the, we hire, could they have town halls, maybe a bunch
[1:48:44] of them?
[1:48:45] Because what's important in my ward, may not be important in an animal reason ward.
[1:48:50] And then they'll have to marry that and kind of, you know, readjust that.
[1:48:55] Is that something that is being planned, is that talked about or?
[1:49:00] Yeah, no, so that's a really good point and what I mean what the baseline expectation would be is that
[1:49:07] You know, perhaps we have a
[1:49:09] Complan steering committee that incorporates commissioners and key stakeholders in various areas of the township
[1:49:16] From the residential the commercial institutional all the different
[1:49:21] stakeholder groups that we have and then that
[1:49:25] Right, that steering committee with the assistance of the consultant holds, yes, a series
[1:49:32] of public meetings.
[1:49:33] How those are organized, we can ultimately determine, maybe, I don't know, a ward by
[1:49:40] ward, maybe not, but issue by issue, zoning area, those types of things.
[1:49:47] But yes, I mean, I think having a lot of public discussion is going to be critical to make
[1:49:55] make sure that, again, the plan is comprehensive and incorporates.
[1:50:00] The issues that we want to see incorporated. And how long are you looking, how long does this, does the plan take? I know they need to get feedback. They come up up with something. I'm sure they're going to have to get feedback. And it's, I mean, I'm thinking right now it's probably like Phenomore Woods, maybe. But is that kind of the process? I mean, it's going to, it's going to take a while. Yeah, during the budget discussions, we had talked about a two-year process, at least two years.
[1:50:28] And we had spread the cost out over, you know, 2022 and 23 anticipating that.
[1:50:34] But ultimately, I think the board has some control on how quickly or, I don't want to
[1:50:41] say slowly, maybe methodically, it's a better term to get through the process.
[1:50:45] Because at the end, we want to plan that we're happy with for at least the next 10 years.
[1:50:52] And just for a clarification point that I may have missed, Kevin, did you say that there
[1:50:58] The RFPs have not yet gone out because we're looking into the grant support?
[1:51:03] Correct.
[1:51:04] There are certain steps that you need to take, so our initial contact with the state on one grant, they recommended holding off until we get some further direction if we proceed in a certain manner that could render us in eligible for the grant.
[1:51:20] So we're trying to get all of the information to see if these are grants.
[1:51:23] A, that are valid for this type of project, be that there's funding and see when the timeline is for
[1:51:29] submittal, because certain activities in cost that we would incur getting up to a grant application would not be included.
[1:51:37] So we don't want to go too far down the road to find out that the RFP would need to be tailored and have to resubmit it out for proposals if we missed a step through a specific grant requirement.
[1:51:50] And if I could just add a little bit, I mean, the other element that we're looking at here is
[1:51:55] while we want to pursue the grant funding, we also don't want to delay the project for too long of a time.
[1:52:01] So we're trying to get a better understanding of what the application and award period is.
[1:52:06] And if it's months and months and months, we may come back to the board and say,
[1:52:13] it's probably not worth the wait since we're excited to get this moving forward.
[1:52:18] But we're, I mean, that's what Melissa's working on now, literally late last week is when
[1:52:25] we started learning about the opportunities and started digging in, so when do you expect
[1:52:31] to make a decision?
[1:52:34] I think one of the last seminars Melissa attended was today.
[1:52:37] We have not had a chance to talk to her about what the requirements for that grant were.
[1:52:42] There were two from the state that we were looking at and we found out one we were ineligible
[1:52:46] for already.
[1:52:47] So they were pointing us more towards a later spring early summer
[1:52:53] submittal. I'm not sure what the deadlines and requirements are for this other
[1:52:57] grant opportunity. Some of them have a 50% match. Other ones only have a 10% match.
[1:53:02] So timing and funding availability, amount of funding available can also
[1:53:07] impact the decision on these.
[1:53:12] So Mr. White, I guess as far as the discussion and direction of staff,
[1:53:18] Can you articulate what the question is?
[1:53:21] Yep, so we'll break this down into two bites.
[1:53:23] The first is the review and selection of the firm,
[1:53:28] making sure that the,
[1:53:31] maybe not the dates that Kevin outlined a moment ago,
[1:53:34] but the steps and the decision making process
[1:53:36] to get through the RFP and select a firm
[1:53:39] if the board is agreeable to that plan.
[1:53:43] And Kevin, maybe just step through that again
[1:53:45] without the dates, just the steps,
[1:53:47] So that we can absorb it a little bit.
[1:53:51] Sure, I think the first that would be establishing the selection committee, which, again, would be myself, you, Mr.
[1:53:58] and Mr. and Ms. Conn and three members of the board.
[1:54:01] So we need to establish the members of the board.
[1:54:04] But then once the RFP is sent out, there is a close of question period, then we would have about a week
[1:54:14] to turn around answers to those questions.
[1:54:17] Everything is done through the PennBid website,
[1:54:19] so interested responders sending questions,
[1:54:23] anybody that has expressed interest receives notification
[1:54:26] that a question has been submitted.
[1:54:28] When we answer that, everybody receives the same information.
[1:54:32] So that would be about a week time between the deadline
[1:54:36] for questions and the time we return answers.
[1:54:39] from there, we would have approximately another two weeks before that to final proposals do electronically and in the day for the hard copies of those.
[1:54:53] We would get enough copies, hard copies for the members on this election committee.
[1:54:58] So we're talking about a
[1:55:00] Two-month window from the time the RFP goes out to the time that this selection committee identifies two to three consultants, and then we would schedule a public meeting for those two or three consultants to make presentations to the board as a whole. Where questions can be answered, proposals can be tailored in terms of their process, their techniques, comprehensive plans and public participation can vary in how they're implemented and what techniques and practices that an individual firm uses.
[1:55:30] You may hear something from one consultant, but like another consultant better with the overall package.
[1:55:36] So then we'd had that opportunity to tailor the public participation process unique to that consultant.
[1:55:43] And then ultimately an award to the winning firm.
[1:55:50] So that's the first bite, does the board like that plan?
[1:55:55] And is that acceptable or are there amendments or other things that you would like to incorporate
[1:56:00] or consider?
[1:56:04] So in general I think it's a great plan I think as far as you know the issue about selecting
[1:56:09] which board which commissioners would be on that I think it's send me your interest Jack
[1:56:18] and I will determine which three commissioners love to hear from others anyone?
[1:56:25] So I guess I think that's fine, I think the timeline that you've laid out seems appropriate
[1:56:31] and inclusive as well, so we definitely want it to be that.
[1:56:35] I'm just wondering if we can also, I've had several members of the prior Comprehensive
[1:56:43] Planning Committee from, I guess, 10, 11 years ago, 12 years ago, reach out that we're
[1:56:51] We're interested in participating at this time, and I'm just wondering if we can perhaps
[1:56:56] give some deference just having a few from who participated in the prior plan.
[1:57:04] I know we want to get new people involved and I think that that's great, but it might be
[1:57:08] helpful to have that institutional knowledge as we go through this process, so.
[1:57:12] Is that in terms of selecting the firm or laying out the actual work to be done in developing
[1:57:19] I think the comprehensive plan.
[1:57:22] I think both certainly both.
[1:57:27] So I'm not hearing that we're asking for resident participation
[1:57:29] in the selection of the firm in the plan that you presented.
[1:57:33] Yeah, it was not part of what we had presented,
[1:57:37] but that's what we're having this discussion.
[1:57:39] Well, that's, I mean, that's fine.
[1:57:41] It's not going to be a health, but I think definitely if we can circle back
[1:57:45] and make sure that, you know, if we have that information,
[1:57:49] I'm sure that we have the names of the people that were in the original, well not original,
[1:57:54] but the prior planning committee to circle back and see if anyone's interested in participating as we go through the process.
[1:58:02] Yeah, I love the idea of bringing in that institutional knowledge during the process.
[1:58:06] So two quick observations on that, first the group that works together to review the RFP's,
[1:58:20] really the goal is to narrow it down to the final three that are going to be asked to present publicly.
[1:58:27] So that will give the public an opportunity to hear these firms ask their questions and participate in the selection in that regard.
[1:58:35] In any event, members from the public would be recommended that they be part of the steering
[1:58:43] committee that ultimately goes through the actual plan process.
[1:58:47] So if that helps.
[1:58:50] If I have, and when you guys determine kind of that process, will you, I guess, are soliciting
[1:58:56] involvement or engagement, we'll just, can we pass those names?
[1:59:02] like people have reached out just pass them on to you guys or?
[1:59:05] You can forward them to me and I'll keep track of those and make sure that they are included in terms of a final recommendation to this board to establish the Ultimate Steering Committee for the development of the plan.
[1:59:17] Perfect, thank you.
[1:59:20] Kevin, just a, I think you said it, but you expect this to be a two-year process?
[1:59:26] We were anticipating about two years from start to finish for this.
[1:59:29] Just, we have put in the RFP, and I want to make sure that I'm quoting it correctly about the public participation process that the plan provides for a diverse and thorough public involvement in the drafting and adoption process.
[1:59:46] Public participation involvement is a critical component to this substantial update, and then there was a whole section in there regarding the public participation process.
[1:59:55] We want to make sure that there is ample time for because it's been so long since we've
[2:00:00] We've updated this.
[2:00:02] There's a chance to thoroughly vet this through the community to make sure that all of the issues, all the changes that the township has seen over the last 18 plus years are going to be fully recognized in the plan and everybody has that opportunity because it's such a major undertaking. If this was just a regular update and we were just going through when updating some numbers and it was, you know, 8 to 10 years, it could probably be done in a year but because it's been 18 plus years since the last one was done.
[2:00:29] We're anticipating a thorough update of all the mapping, all the numbers so it's going to take some time.
[2:00:35] So you don't think this can be done, a completion can be done in 2023.
[2:00:41] No, I think this is going to stretch into 2024, as you know, we're looking for the RFP to be on the streets for about two months and then another two months for the selection committee to go through those and make a recommendation to get it in front of this board.
[2:00:54] Okay, thank you.
[2:01:01] Any other commissioners want to chime in?
[2:01:07] Do you have what you need?
[2:01:09] Kevin, is that pretty?
[2:01:11] I mean, it sounds like we're pretty online with the initiative.
[2:01:15] Yeah, I think, ultimately.
[2:01:17] Thank you.
[2:01:18] I mean, we want this to be comprehensive and successful.
[2:01:25] So if it is the sense of the board that you would like to see this move quicker, we can
[2:01:33] always work that into the RFP process.
[2:01:36] We can make that part of the selection criteria.
[2:01:38] We can ask the firms to present their timelines and timeframes, and we're going to see all this
[2:01:47] anyway.
[2:01:47] So, again, it would be good to know if the sense of the board is, you know, target a certain date or a time frame and then we could start.
[2:01:58] We might hear from the firms that, you know, in order to have, you know, this much public process, you can't get it done in this time frame.
[2:02:06] So there's going to be probably some give and take on that, but it would be good to know now.
[2:02:09] Yeah, I'm going to hope that the firms that are selected are coming in with vast experience
[2:02:20] and can really give us a realistic timetable since we haven't done this in over a decade.
[2:02:27] I think it's hard to guess, but our discussions during the budget approval process led me to believe
[2:02:33] that two years was a sufficient time to get it done.
[2:02:36] I think, obviously, if we can do things faster, we'd like to do it.
[2:02:41] I am concerned that if you don't even know about a grant proposal application to go in
[2:02:47] for a couple of months, it's a, you know, I'd really like to know the date that you would
[2:02:53] find out if you got it and, you know, and how much you're expected to get from it.
[2:02:58] So when you were deciding, you know, I understand Melissa's gathering that information, but I think
[2:03:02] I think that's key. I don't think we want to drag our feet waiting for money we may not get and lose some time.
[2:03:11] So I think that's going to be a very important response when you have that information for us to decide about timing.
[2:03:17] But I think the rest of the plan sounds good.
[2:03:20] It will definitely be a balancing act between how much the cost share is for the township, the matching grant,
[2:03:28] When the award is and how much, you know, some of these funding, you may be cap down at $15,000 or $20,000 as part of the project may not be worth a six month delay in the process.
[2:03:40] Yeah, I was just thinking, if we're talking months and months, I mean, this was something that was fully budgeted for in the budget.
[2:03:49] But if it's months and months, we may forego the funding, and we'll advise the board either way on the timing and make a recommendation once we have it.
[2:04:00] But I'm going back to our budget discussions, and this was a priority to get moving on right away, so that is the intention.
[2:04:09] And like I said, just last week we're the funding opportunity presented itself, so we didn't want to just pause and consider it.
[2:04:15] But if it we don't not at the expense of delaying this, again, months and months.
[2:04:20] I'm seeing some head nods up here.
[2:04:23] Okay.
[2:04:24] Can I ask you a question?
[2:04:24] Can't we start it?
[2:04:25] And if we get a grant, it's reimbursome or?
[2:04:28] Well, unfortunately, with a lot of these grants, if you've started the work, it eliminates
[2:04:32] you from consideration of the grant.
[2:04:35] So.
[2:04:35] And that includes soliciting for RFPs, because I, well, I don't want to guess, but the grants
[2:04:43] That's typically our, if you're not able to do this because you can't afford it, here's the money.
[2:04:48] If we solicit RFPs, we've already presented that we have the money and we're doing it anyway.
[2:04:53] I mean, I think we should just, we need a comprehensive plan.
[2:04:58] Yep, so totally.
[2:05:00] And I think we should end its budget and we should, that's my opinion, as opposed to sitting around waiting because something's always going to be out there to grab. The question is whether or not you can do it. There's always a, you know, shiny, the grass is always greener. And there's always a shiny quarter that you're going to try to get.
[2:05:18] And it's a small sample size, but, you know, we heard tonight. Residents want us to move now. So, you know, I mean, the grant's great, but I don't want to wait any longer.
[2:05:29] We've talked about this for long enough, and every day we sit and look for other things
[2:05:35] the day that goes by, so my top priority is timeline, and the quicker we get it done
[2:05:40] the better.
[2:05:41] I think it's Mr. Waiter alluded to, we were ready to go with hosting this, but then when
[2:05:45] the grant opportunity, we wanted to at least explore to see what that was that presented
[2:05:49] to other grant opportunities.
[2:05:51] That it's been over the last week that we've gotten those details, we'll get the rest
[2:05:55] So there's from Melissa early this week and then from there
[2:05:58] to be able to make a decision at that point.
[2:06:04] So I mean, the fact that we're talking
[2:06:07] that we have the money, what went that negate us
[2:06:10] getting a grant, this conversation in itself
[2:06:12] that we have a budgeted, that we have the money.
[2:06:17] Well, at the end of the day, the grants have a process
[2:06:21] Yes. And their applications are evaluated based on their process, not, I mean, they wouldn't.
[2:06:31] And they're all different.
[2:06:32] Yeah, yeah.
[2:06:33] Mr. Barofi.
[2:06:34] So I hear what you guys are saying, and I agree with the, we did budget for it.
[2:06:40] So let's go for it.
[2:06:41] I think that when we talk to the firms, we definitely want to get a good sense from them as to,
[2:06:47] they may have, and we're kind of estimating two years.
[2:06:49] It could be that they say, you know, you can get it done in a shorter amount of time, but what I wouldn't want to sacrifice is the public participation in the process.
[2:06:59] So I think that that needs to be a very important component of the RFP. It's going to do us no good to rush through it.
[2:07:05] And then at the end present something that the community doesn't feel invested and involved in.
[2:07:11] So I think that that's going to be really important and the other thing about taking some
[2:07:17] time is we talked about being able to put money into the budget to be able to do the
[2:07:23] things or do some of the things that the comprehensive plan will put forth.
[2:07:28] So if that is rewriting our zoning code or working on new ordinances or things like that, we can
[2:07:36] start to lay in the funding for that.
[2:07:38] And I'm sure that we'll have, you know, as we go through the process, we'll start to realize,
[2:07:42] you know, what are some of the things that are rising to the top, the things that we need to start to plan for?
[2:07:46] So that will give us that time as well.
[2:07:49] So I wouldn't want to rush the process too much, but I think, you know, finding a good balance will be good,
[2:07:56] and I will look to the firms to be able to help guide us in that process.
[2:08:00] Absolutely.
[2:08:01] And once this comprehensive plan is adopted, then that's instrumental in getting grant funding
[2:08:06] to implement the complaint.
[2:08:08] So, there's a whole separate round of funding for that.
[2:08:10] Once we get this on the books, we'll be able to apply for to implement the recommendations
[2:08:16] in the complaint.
[2:08:21] Final comments from board members.
[2:08:25] Gentlemen, do you have what you need?
[2:08:27] I think we do.
[2:08:28] Yes, thank you.
[2:08:29] Okay.
[2:08:30] I'm going to move us to the next discussion, a direction to staff.
[2:08:33] This is regarding redistricting.
[2:08:36] So,
[2:08:40] similar to the complaint from the aspect that this process doesn't occur very often.
[2:08:48] In the past, the township has hired a consultant to help, again, shepherd us through it.
[2:08:58] Where we're at with this right now is we don't have an RFP prepared and we haven't obviously received permission to solicit for one.
[2:09:06] So this one's a little bit more at the starting gate, so we're hoping tonight to get some direction from the board on how you would like to proceed with this project.
[2:09:16] We had previously brought in someone to help us whack up the township, is that correct?
[2:09:23] Yes.
[2:09:23] Is there any reason that we couldn't call her back in to get that process started?
[2:09:28] I didn't hear his comment.
[2:09:29] So Commissioner Larkin is recalling that the last time that we had a there was a consultant
[2:09:35] who helped the township with redistricting and is that are we interested in reaching
[2:09:41] out to the same person who's familiar with our community or is this going to be open?
[2:09:48] We should decide if we're even interested in redistricting before we say you're putting
[2:09:53] the cart in front of the horse.
[2:09:54] We're required to buy our truck.
[2:09:55] We have to.
[2:09:56] We have to.
[2:09:57] Okay.
[2:09:58] So what I-
[2:10:00] What I would suggest is that we at least reach out to her a second time. I'm not aware are there other people who are consultants who could help us with this?
[2:10:11] Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure that that particular consultant is from Lehigh County. So I think one of the prior commissioners on the board was familiar with her and she came in. I mean, I have the proposal in my file.
[2:10:29] it was $1,800, and she did an initial divvy of the, in boards, it has to meet certain
[2:10:39] standards in the statute, which is a municipal reapportionment act that requires this after
[2:10:45] every sense of so, and your charter also speaks to it.
[2:10:49] So she did that relatively quickly, and then there was a series of public meetings, a board
[2:10:56] board members on this committee and where the eventual product was different from what
[2:11:03] her initial but it did take a little bit of time to get it right and then it goes to
[2:11:08] county court and it goes to a process in county court.
[2:11:12] I mean I guess I would suggest see if we can get her back but ultimately we're going to
[2:11:18] have to put out an RFP if there's somebody else who's interested.
[2:11:21] I think that what distinguishes the people is going to end up being not so much the product
[2:11:27] that they are promising, because obviously that should be governed by the statute, but
[2:11:31] instead, how much interaction with the public and what the cost going to be, and obviously
[2:11:37] background in education, if you've never done this before, I don't want to be the person
[2:11:42] that you're practicing on for the first time.
[2:11:44] But I guess you can convince me.
[2:11:46] Other than that, yeah, I'd just like to see an RFP that the staff can put out, and then
[2:11:50] and we can see what gets brought back to us.
[2:11:54] So, you know, there are some, if you read about redistricting
[2:11:59] there's some very creative ways that communities have gone
[2:12:03] into this process.
[2:12:04] One is open solicitation of the public to submit.
[2:12:08] I mean, there are a lot of different ways
[2:12:10] you can go about redistricting.
[2:12:13] I mean, I'm just not certain that going and finding somebody
[2:12:16] who was here 13 years ago, but lives in Lehigh County
[2:12:19] is maybe, you know, the direction we want to take, not being familiar with that. I wasn't
[2:12:25] here for that process, so I have no idea. But, you know, I just be interested in hearing
[2:12:32] what people think about, just process in general, about how to go around redistricting.
[2:12:41] Thanks. Just a jack's point, you know, before we talk about even bringing that individual back,
[2:12:47] I'd like to speak to the previous board that brought the person in and just get their
[2:12:53] sense of, did they like the work, was it fair, some of those questions, if they didn't
[2:13:01] agree with the work that was produced and it created conflict, I'm not sure why would
[2:13:09] we bring the same person back to have those same issues?
[2:13:12] You can answer the question.
[2:13:13] You've got the words that they left us with.
[2:13:17] Well, no, we don't.
[2:13:21] The commissioners agreed to that.
[2:13:22] So it went through a different process.
[2:13:24] So I don't even know if they used her work.
[2:13:28] Well, I'll let staff speak to that.
[2:13:31] I am not proposing that we exclusively use this one person.
[2:13:34] I think we have to send an RFP out generally.
[2:13:36] I'm just not aware that there's a lot of other consultants out there who do this.
[2:13:40] So I kind of want to attract her attention to it.
[2:13:43] If there's somebody else, by all means, let's talk to somebody else.
[2:13:49] So, John Rice was there a process the last time about, I mean, was it an RFP process?
[2:13:56] Was it as general as that or?
[2:13:58] Yeah, I think somebody used somebody and they brought somebody in to leave the firm.
[2:14:03] The individual was relatively well-known at the time she was involved in the state redistricting not just at a township level.
[2:14:16] So someone was familiar with her, she was relatively new actually at the time, but she had testified in some of the state actions at the time.
[2:14:28] So, one of the commissioners contacted her.
[2:14:32] She was interested, she submitted a proposal, but there was not an RFP process involved in it.
[2:14:39] I mean, I can ask around in my office to see whether there was anyone else out there doing this.
[2:14:47] I mean, it's only really the first-class townships that have wards or burrows that are required to do this.
[2:14:54] all the second-class townships which are most of the townships in Pennsylvania.
[2:15:00] Thank you.
[2:15:02] Don't really need to do this. It's just a virus in the first class and the home rule that have wards. Because all the second class, you get elected at large. Right. So I would, I would be curious to see, I mean, obviously this is the year that all of us who are in that position first class have to go through it. So I would, I think that would be a starting point is to understand the process that others are considering at this, at this stage.
[2:15:29] I wonder if we also engage, you know, we do have a very active League of Women voters
[2:15:40] group here.
[2:15:42] You know, it would be something to engage with that group and involve the community on
[2:15:51] that level.
[2:15:53] I'm sure they have a lot of thoughts about how redistricting is done.
[2:15:57] and I know they do, you know, I just, I wonder if it's worth it to talk with that group perhaps
[2:16:05] they know, you know, through their travels there's also, you know, groups out there that
[2:16:11] do, you know, do this kind of on a larger scale, I think, for the state.
[2:16:15] So it might be worth to look in that direction as well.
[2:16:23] Do you think we definitely need a community, there needs to be a community component to this
[2:16:28] And I think it needs to be early in the process.
[2:16:32] And I do think that we need to, and I don't really know what the parameters are around.
[2:16:38] I know the charter doesn't dictate a lot when it comes to this except really that we have to do it.
[2:16:43] And I'm not sure what the other statutes are, but I think that if we set some ground rules to begin with,
[2:16:50] you can't redistrict the sitting commissioner out of his or her ward.
[2:16:55] you know like things like that and I don't know if we can do that but I think
[2:16:59] that if I recall correctly that might have been a problem with the last time
[2:17:03] they did it which is one of the reasons why they kind of had to go back and do
[2:17:07] it again because some got redistricted out so you don't want to do that.
[2:17:11] I think you can. But they get to serve out their term.
[2:17:14] I think so but I don't I think we would want to do that rule but yeah so it's
[2:17:20] allowable as long as you don't unseat. But just what would some of the
[2:17:24] the ground rules be as you look at it.
[2:17:26] So set those parameters at front and would we want to engage?
[2:17:29] So does that become us and also the public who look at those kinds of things?
[2:17:33] We've got one whole ward that's basically all the dorms of Eastern University.
[2:17:39] So, you know, ultimately, things like that.
[2:17:43] So are those some of the things we want to look at as we look at the township?
[2:17:47] Ultimately, the commissioners have to approve what gets sent to the County Board of Elections.
[2:17:53] So the statute is very sparse on this.
[2:17:57] The only thing in the statute is a district shall be composed of compact and
[2:18:02] contiguous territory as nearly equal in population is practical,
[2:18:07] as officially and finally reported in the most recent federal census,
[2:18:12] decennial or special, that's the standard.
[2:18:18] So, beyond that, you know, you can consider those other items also, because ultimately the board has to vote,
[2:18:25] the majority of the board has to vote to pass this on, and then it gets vetted again at the county level as a court hearing on it, and it gets approved.
[2:18:36] So, that's the State Municipal Reapportionment Act, that's all it says, when it's done by the governing body.
[2:18:47] One last note that I'd like to toss in is that I would put a high priority on getting this done this year
[2:18:55] because the majority of the board is up for reelection next year, whoever runs, I just think it,
[2:19:01] I mean, I don't think there's anything that's legally inappropriate about it, maybe others,
[2:19:05] maybe I'm wrong about that, but it just doesn't look great to me if we are voting on what the
[2:19:10] The words are going to look like in the same year that people are running for those spots,
[2:19:14] particularly in the year when a majority of the board is up for election, as there would be next year.
[2:19:19] So I'd love to get this done in calendar 2022, which is why I'm really glad we're getting started in February.
[2:19:27] I do agree to that point.
[2:19:29] Plus, you want to be making sure you're knocking on the right doors.
[2:19:32] I would actually like to be zoned out of my word if it all possible.
[2:19:36] You can put me in for different.
[2:19:41] Alright, thanks so I hear the whole meet with illegal women voters and we did that and I'm not comfortable after the conversation that I had at the time, but there were some good points.
[2:20:00] I think that this should be good or professional. If someone that's done this before, and then if you want to bring the legal women voters, as well as your constituents, then you should do it. But I think that if this board could come up with something themselves, and that the public, then I think that's something that we should look at too.
[2:20:27] So, I mean, I have a, for instance, a couple of things in my mind, for instance, a train
[2:20:35] on, a train on split and half, and I don't necessarily think that it should be, it probably
[2:20:40] should be in Lisa's ward, not in mine.
[2:20:46] But I would just like to see this to what Jack said, getting this done sooner than later.
[2:20:51] But I would rather see this done with a professional and then the other outside groups and chime in as opposed to just asking them.
[2:21:02] So do we have tools that look at the census data and break it down for us?
[2:21:09] I did say the library, one of their board members works for an organization that has a tool and they did a presentation for the library around looking at the census data
[2:21:21] as the library looks to better engage residents.
[2:21:26] They looked at things and the information
[2:21:29] that this one board member was providing
[2:21:31] based on this tool was there's been a significant growth
[2:21:35] in the West Wayne area and in Garret Hill.
[2:21:40] And when you look at the data and where
[2:21:45] the various, where you've seen a lot of growth
[2:21:50] within the in the in the in the township. So do we have a tool like that so
[2:21:56] suppose to Commissioner Farge's point we wanted to undertake this ourselves with
[2:22:00] you know kind of the public participating do we have a tool like that or would
[2:22:05] we need something like that to help us I forget it's called but it's a it's a
[2:22:10] computer it analyzes you input your your census data and it gives fits out all
[2:22:17] this you know demographic information and yeah and would they help if we don't have it when they
[2:22:24] just help us out. I don't I don't know if they would just give it to us. I mean they are company.
[2:22:30] She as a board member and so it's a board member. Yeah she works with the company. It's not the
[2:22:34] library. She did it. So I retract that statement. I thought it was the library who had it. No no no it's
[2:22:40] not the library. It's a board member. She works with the organization. They did a demo for me because
[2:22:45] I was so impressed with what they put forth at one of their board meetings, and they're
[2:22:50] using that information, you know, around marketing and things like that for the library, so,
[2:22:55] but it was really cool, and I forget the name of it, and I will look it up if we want
[2:22:59] our interested in talking about it.
[2:23:03] Well, so, we have this technology, but we don't have the person yet to help us drive it,
[2:23:12] but it's part of...
[2:23:13] Yeah, part of our Esri software that we do have is a redistricting tool.
[2:23:22] Obviously, we have not taken a look at it.
[2:23:24] We don't know what it does.
[2:23:26] But if it's similar to other Esri products that we have looked at,
[2:23:30] I would imagine it would do those same type of functions,
[2:23:33] where it can take over a period of time or two different data groups
[2:23:38] groups based on two different census, a census, a census eye, whatever the plural is for
[2:23:47] census.
[2:23:48] And compare those and you can see where the shifts in population are and you can overlay
[2:23:54] that on top of our existing ward map and see where those movements are.
[2:23:59] So I think we do have access to a tool similar to that.
[2:24:03] that part of either the GIS coordinator which we don't have yet, or whoever we hire to
[2:24:13] help us with this, if they have expertise and data modeling, which hopefully they would,
[2:24:20] I know the last person I think did have some expertise in that area, they would be able
[2:24:26] to drive that technology that we already have.
[2:24:29] So, that exists, I mean, we just need someone to drive it.
[2:24:35] We hire a consultant to do that, and we can hire Esri to do it, honestly, but that's
[2:24:41] just the data piece.
[2:24:42] We would be missing the public process piece, but if we could satisfy the data piece, you
[2:24:51] know, perhaps there's another way to attack the public part of it, if the public process
[2:24:58] Please come in.
[2:25:00] For the data piece, so do we get people together and talk about, you know, what's important? Well, we don't want all of the dorms in one ward, you know, it's silly because there's only 12 residents in that ward. The rest is, you know, transient students. Not the students are not important with our students, but you know, it's, it's a really small, you know, is there a better way to do it? So do we look at things like that?
[2:25:29] Like, what don't we like right now, make a list?
[2:25:32] We don't want to redistrict anyone out of their ward, except for Jack, you know, things like that, and make a list before we start looking at the data so that we have those things, kind of those parameters, and when we run the data, we say, oh my goodness, you know, Jack is still in his ward, we better do this again or something like that.
[2:25:53] Sorry, Jack, then we need to pick on you.
[2:25:59] Do I see you puzzling over there?
[2:26:01] I just wonder, you know, because once we have the data and
[2:26:04] once we run the numbers, then we're just doing it based on, or
[2:26:08] maybe that's what we decide.
[2:26:09] We're just going to say we're just going to do it based on the numbers,
[2:26:12] but I think that's what happened last time and that's when commissioners
[2:26:15] got redistricted out of their boards.
[2:26:17] And while they could still serve, what if they want to run again?
[2:26:21] Then are they running again?
[2:26:22] Then are they in a board where there's an incumbent?
[2:26:24] Like that presents problems amongst, you know, in itself as well.
[2:26:29] I mean, there's probably a little bit of overlap, but it could be wrong, but typically
[2:26:38] when you work with data, it's more complete, I mean, the data is what it is.
[2:26:45] So it'll show you the movements and demographics and shifts and population and those types
[2:26:51] of things.
[2:26:52] And then you react off of that based on what it is you want to react to.
[2:26:58] So, if it is, if one thing is important to the board and the data supports it, then the data supports it or if it's important to the board but the data doesn't support it, at least you have the data in either case to consider and have a discussion about it.
[2:27:17] I'm not sure, and I'm not relating this back to redistricting specifically, just more
[2:27:22] generically, that decision making before the data is made available isn't always the
[2:27:30] best decision making, because then you look at the data the way you want to, that best forms
[2:27:37] the decision that's already been, like, this is more edgy, like, again, this is not redistricting
[2:27:43] specific. It's more, you know, just educational. So that's a long roundabout way of saying
[2:27:52] I think the data is probably important first, or at least a significant, the generic
[2:27:57] stuff first. And then you start refining it based on issues that you feel are important
[2:28:04] specific to the issue. But, I mean, we're still, we're still at, we might have access to
[2:28:11] a tool we need a driver. We can reach out to Ezri to find out what their consulting
[2:28:17] fee would be to do that piece for us. We might find that it's affordable and quick.
[2:28:23] We will do that right away. And I guess at the same time, we'll also research and try
[2:28:31] to pull together a quick RFP and see if that makes sense to combine or put the whole package
[2:28:40] together in terms of not just the data but then also the public part of it.
[2:28:46] Yeah, there are a lot of resources out there about best practices and redistricting.
[2:28:53] I would like to see staff take a look at that and come back and say we like this approach.
[2:29:02] I do agree that I think we need to have some professional leadership through the process
[2:29:08] and I also agree that it should be done quickly, so those are my feelings on it.
[2:29:12] Thank you Commissioner Jones, were you?
[2:29:16] I was really interested in this this summer and I was looking at all different protocols for
[2:29:22] redistricting and there are some really cool algorithms out there but it sounds like
[2:29:27] you know the technology we have would be able to foster that and part of that protocol always said
[2:29:35] always you know split it unpack what we call packing and you want to unpack using
[2:29:41] the algorithm and then you bring it to a human collective to you know kind of
[2:29:49] figure it out from there and also you know I believe in not having
[2:29:54] commissioners involved just for accusing the process
[2:30:03] Bill, this is a weird question. Can we offer like a grant or money? Can we pay a college kid college? Can we put it out there to the public? If we prove it, we give them $x amount of $5,000, whatever. To do what? Talk about the plan. We like it. We go with it. We have enough. We have enough. We have a bunch of colleges and professors and political polycyclics going for they could probably figure it out.
[2:30:34] Well, I'm sure there could be some kind of
[2:30:37] You ever thought we just talked about having somebody that's done it before?
[2:30:41] I'm just throwing up stuff against law and see what sticks.
[2:30:45] To a certain extent, it's a part of it.
[2:30:48] That is the process I've seen done before.
[2:30:50] Sure, so to a certain extent, I understand what Anna Marie saying.
[2:30:53] Like, we need to recuse ourselves and I get that.
[2:30:56] But at the same time, you know, these are our residents and, you know,
[2:31:02] like we need to have the stakeholder in there.
[2:31:06] I mean, there's a couple of the neighborhoods
[2:31:09] that we don't really, it's like not like for you and me,
[2:31:14] Annemarie, it's like anything,
[2:31:16] like you're a little bit east of 320.
[2:31:20] And it's kind of like, you know,
[2:31:22] like that's something that I should probably take,
[2:31:24] or someone else should probably take,
[2:31:26] and like I should probably give up,
[2:31:27] like something like Trina,
[2:31:28] And I'm like, that's the stuff that I think that if we come together and then put all that stuff out there, I mean, there's got to be cost, you said with $1,800, what, 13 years ago, so what's this going to be $10,000, $15,000?
[2:31:44] Give or take.
[2:31:45] Well, it was $1,600.
[2:31:46] $1,600.
[2:31:48] I think, yes, $1,600, what we pay, we have to find somebody.
[2:31:53] And now if we hired somebody for the Gips or Gix program, they would be able to do this
[2:31:59] or not, or we still need an outside consultant just because of what Ann and Marie said that
[2:32:03] the township should probably want to keep it as much hands off, so this really isn't even
[2:32:08] relevant to that program.
[2:32:10] Well, in either case, we're going to need someone to help us with the data points.
[2:32:14] whether that person is the same one that helps us then go through the decision-making process or if it's two different people, that's what we got to figure out.
[2:32:25] So what we'll do, we'll go back to the best practices in redistricting, try to build together an RFP that hits the points that we've talked about here tonight,
[2:32:39] and then we'll bring that back to the board to get moving on.
[2:32:43] And at the same time, answer some of the other questions like with the Esri and our access to that and if they can be that consultant on that front,
[2:32:52] like answer some of those questions and come back to the board and go from there, but we'll move quickly.
[2:33:02] Nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room and that redistricting can have very partisan effects.
[2:33:17] And I like the suggestion that we find best practices.
[2:33:22] I think that part of the instructions that we give to somebody is whether or
[2:33:32] not they're going to look at party registrations and things like that.
[2:33:38] I would suggest that, you know, I mean, if you're willing to tear the community apart by
[2:33:44] having something that's very partisan, you can have one result, and if you're willing
[2:33:49] to try to get to what best practices and do something that's fairly nonpartisan, but
[2:33:57] reflects just the demographics of the community on other aspects, you could get a different result.
[2:34:05] But we've all seen the effect of gerrymandering and what that can do.
[2:34:10] And that's really what,
[2:34:14] that's the danger or the attractiveness depending on where you are on redistricting.
[2:34:21] Thank you.
[2:34:25] Thanks, Kim.
[2:34:27] Are there any other comments from commissioners or staff?
[2:34:34] This isn't an issue that we're voting on, so not going to do public comment.
[2:34:41] Can you share it with us in another format?
[2:34:45] Thank you.
[2:34:45] And then the next issue is discussion and direction to staff regarding proposed plastic bag ordinance.
[2:34:52] I'll just say briefly about this one. This is an issue that has been raised at the environmental advisory.
[2:35:00] Committee. They've done some good work, even drafting a proposed ordinance based on others that have been done in the area. I know that they're doing some research on it by attending webinars and the like. But the one thing I think that hasn't been engaged yet is the business community. I did reach out to the WBA, and I'm trying to have a conversation there.
[2:35:28] the advisory, the EAC had asked for access to a list of our businesses and
[2:35:38] Rodner, and I think we're trying to figure out how to communicate with the
[2:35:43] businesses to engage in this conversation, and the community, of course, the
[2:35:48] seventh one. To any public setting at, there's been their town hall, the
[2:35:54] So environmental advisory committee is planning to use one of their meetings as a public
[2:36:00] meeting to have this conversation, but I just didn't want to get too far down the road
[2:36:05] on an issue that I know has, you know, it's controversial in many ways or some ways.
[2:36:13] So I wanted to get a sense of the board or have this discussion and we've not asked staff
[2:36:22] Do you have to do anything on the proposed language or outreach until we have this conversation?
[2:36:30] So that's what this issue is and I, is there anything that staff wants to add to that, or can we just?
[2:36:38] No, I mean, that's a good summary, just before we ask Kevin and the solicitor to dive in to the proposal just to make sure that the board's on board with that spending time and money in doing that.
[2:36:54] commissioners?
[2:36:55] What do you mean by spending money?
[2:36:59] Well staff resources I think is essentially what we're talking about at this stage, township
[2:37:06] resources, hosting, town hall, I don't think there's a lot of, there's not a budget attached.
[2:37:12] Sorry, yeah, that should be clear, just referring to that time is money.
[2:37:16] So it'd be staff resources and also the solicitor.
[2:37:21] Yeah, so as you talk to the business community, I'd be interested to know if you're to ban plastic bags,
[2:37:29] there's going to be a cost involved. It's going to be passed down to consumers.
[2:37:33] What do we forecast that cost to be? And then project that out, do we think
[2:37:39] people are going to look to go to surrounding towns to do their grocery shopping or to go to CVS,
[2:37:44] which, you know, they can just cross the township border and be, you know, near CVS right
[2:37:50] aid, act me. So what do we think that would do to our businesses, long-term, if those
[2:38:03] surrounding communities don't pass similar ordinances?
[2:38:06] So some already are in the process, I think, to reference looking at it. To that point,
[2:38:12] And what has been proposed, and I didn't want to share that here because it hasn't been
[2:38:16] bedded by the solicitor or anything, but there is a draft based on other jurisdictions
[2:38:20] and it's a fee base, which essentially is net neutral to the business to $10.
[2:38:26] It's $10.
[2:38:28] I think it's written as a 10 cent fee which would go to the business because the paper bags
[2:38:35] and the non-single use bags that they would be required to offer or want to offer cost
[2:38:42] about 10 cents. So the idea is that the bill is built to have a neutral financial impact
[2:38:48] on the businesses as much as possible. That's the intention. I don't know if it works
[2:38:52] in reality, but there's a there's a ban plus fee. There's a lot of education. There's time
[2:38:59] to implement. If anybody's been paying attention to how Philadelphia did it, they did pass it
[2:39:06] and then they left a six month or a year
[2:39:09] before it would be enforced so that community members
[2:39:13] and business owners could get used to it.
[2:39:17] So there's signage and an awareness time period.
[2:39:21] So those are built into what has at least been proposed
[2:39:24] out of the committee.
[2:39:26] Again, I didn't want to go farther into the details about it
[2:39:30] with this group before we were sure we wanted to go down
[2:39:34] about that. And question, so would this just be businesses in the wing business
[2:39:41] association or does this also include, you know, it would be a, yeah, it would be
[2:39:47] a township wide ordinance, you know, they're a very vocal group of business owners,
[2:39:52] but I think that if we're going to, you know, some of the corporate owned businesses
[2:39:56] is probably use more bags than the small businesses, so.
[2:40:00] You know, to act me in the home sense and TJ and all of those, but we'd have to engage somehow. I jump in. I'm really the only small business owner here.
[2:40:14] Net neutral means it still costs the business money, because that's time and resources where they could be out doing what they should be doing, their core business, and now they're dealing with more administrative stuff.
[2:40:30] When it comes to paper versus plastic, I think 10, 15 years will be right back at it because
[2:40:35] they'll be, you know, the reason why we switched from paper to plastic was because of
[2:40:39] the rainforest.
[2:40:40] Now, the plastic destroys the rainforest, so we'll get more paper, and it's kind of a vicious
[2:40:46] circle.
[2:40:48] The other thing, and Jake, you make the best point.
[2:40:53] I think that I'm lucky, I'll tell everybody here, and I'm lucky.
[2:40:57] I mean, I have a car, I have a pickup truck, I can pay for $3.50 gasoline.
[2:41:04] Some people can't afford that, so when you make them buy, they may take the bus and they
[2:41:10] may need something at a store and they're on their way home and it's all business decision
[2:41:17] for someone just scraping by $0.10 here, $0.15 there, it's a lot, it's a lot if you don't
[2:41:22] have a job or you're struggling or somebody sick.
[2:41:25] So I think that for us to say it's only 10 cents or you know people will get used to it.
[2:41:33] Maybe they will.
[2:41:36] That that hurts me and that I think that hurts the poorest of the poor.
[2:41:41] And that is really one of my major reasons why I'm against this.
[2:41:46] TJ pardon me.
[2:41:49] Trader Joe's. They'll pay you. That's fine.
[2:41:51] I think we should look at more soy based, something that would be biodegradable, finding something
[2:42:00] that, something that mice or other animals can eat.
[2:42:05] I don't know if anyone knows about Ford Motor, they wrapped a lot of their electrical wiring
[2:42:09] in soy based plastics and it didn't go too well because rodents would get in there.
[2:42:16] But my thing is the question that I have, again, it's very easy to say, let's just ban plastic bags, but I see single use bags there.
[2:42:28] Are we going to ban garbage bags?
[2:42:31] Are we going to ban the saran wrap?
[2:42:34] Are we going to ban the single waste dog bags at the dog park?
[2:42:40] Zip lock bags? Styrofoam?
[2:42:44] So you can hurt the consumer at a store, but they're just going to put those plastic products and paper bags on their way home.
[2:42:56] So I get it. I care about the environment. I am a steward in the environment despite what a lot of people think.
[2:43:04] I care about it. I spend my time in the country at my father's farm.
[2:43:11] I enjoy nature but I would love to see plastic ban but not at the expense of those who are the most vulnerable as well as if you ban one you should ban them all.
[2:43:29] ban them all and that's fine but don't ban things because it's easy and it looks good
[2:43:34] and Philadelphia did it or another township did it and you want to keep up with the
[2:43:38] Joneses if you're going to do it do it and that's fine but ban it all and the
[2:43:44] issue is is why are we banning it because when you're done with this bottle if you
[2:43:50] could recycle it or milk carton you put it in the recyclable and they burn it
[2:43:54] anyway so I don't I mean I don't really get it I just think that they're I
[2:44:02] mean I'd love to see this proposal I do want to see it but I think that we
[2:44:06] should be looking at not the stick but the carrot yeah I think I think to
[2:44:15] that point I don't know I don't know the answer to this it'd be worth looking
[2:44:20] into is there a way to incentivize people not to use plastic so so instead of
[2:44:24] charging somebody $0.10?
[2:44:26] No, no, no, no.
[2:44:26] What a store give you $0.10 to use a reusable bag.
[2:44:31] Yeah, I mean, that's fine.
[2:44:34] That's what I want to see, but I don't want to start punishing people.
[2:44:37] And, you know, like I said, we have cars.
[2:44:40] It's great, but like, you know, you can't carry around a, maybe you can, you know,
[2:44:44] your, your bag, your straw, your this, your that, and then get on the bus.
[2:44:48] And then you have an emergency.
[2:44:49] see. Yeah, I just look at those people that are most vulnerable, that's who it hurts. I have plenty of
[2:44:57] in my pickup truck, I do.
[2:45:08] So I disagree. I think the people look on the bus. Most of those people are not using single
[2:45:16] sack grocery bags. They're using stand up cloth grocery bags that they use again and
[2:45:22] again and again. I've lived in two places where this has been implemented, obviously
[2:45:27] not full-time because I've lived here for 25 years, but it goes very smoothly. People
[2:45:34] get used to it right, you do need to have these lead times where people get used to the rules.
[2:45:39] But you learn to bring your own bag really fast and it, you know, we've got to say start
[2:45:46] saving the world somewhere.
[2:45:48] I think as far as going across the line, it's an admirable idea, but I'm not sure you're
[2:45:53] going to get people to stop using garbage bags.
[2:45:56] Most of the places, these are not a universal plastic band.
[2:46:01] It will be the grocery sacks, not necessarily the larger sacks, the TJ max sacks at first, and then sometimes they'll escalate.
[2:46:10] So, but I think you have to start somewhere.
[2:46:13] And I don't think that the person you're hurting is necessarily that person that can't afford the bag.
[2:46:19] I just, sorry, one quick question.
[2:46:21] Who would enforce, I guess Kevin's on here, who would enforce this?
[2:46:25] I mean, it sounds like it's a, is it a code's violation?
[2:46:28] And I just think that, to a certain extent, we need to protect the environment.
[2:46:34] But I don't think that we can pick and choose.
[2:46:38] I mean, we, you know, if this comes down to codes, is it like the bamboo police,
[2:46:42] the plastic bags police, the rain gardens police?
[2:46:45] I mean, who's going to implement this and what are the fines going to be?
[2:46:49] Well, yeah, so I'm going to be.
[2:46:51] There's obviously a lot of details that would still need to be ironed out.
[2:46:56] Well, what it does sound like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there's interest in pursuing the topic.
[2:47:03] And if that's the case, then that's the direction to EAC.
[2:47:06] And then we'll ask Kevin and John to chime in and work with those groups accordingly.
[2:47:12] Finally, it may be that ultimately after they go through this whole process and present
[2:47:16] something to the board, it gets approved or doesn't or gets changed, but where we're
[2:47:22] at tonight is just, kind of, is there interest in pursuing the topic?
[2:47:28] All of those, these finer details is ultimately what needs to still be worked out.
[2:47:34] And yes, I do foresee any kind of code enforcement is going to fall under community development.
[2:47:41] So I'll just quickly, so I agree with Maggie, you know, you have to start somewhere.
[2:47:48] You can't just say it's impossible or we can't do it unless it's all inclusive.
[2:47:53] You know, it is baby steps and I think, I applaud the EAC, I know we tried to bring something
[2:48:00] like this forward.
[2:48:01] I remember Commissioner Clark and I many years ago, so I applaud them for taking it and running
[2:48:05] with it and I think as long as there's engagement with the business community, I think that's
[2:48:09] It's very important.
[2:48:11] We should go ahead and pursue it and see where it lands.
[2:48:19] Is there any other feeling sense of the board?
[2:48:23] I think what I'm hearing is that we would like to learn more.
[2:48:27] I think to everyone's point about what elements would be
[2:48:33] acceptable to our community, to our small business owners,
[2:48:36] and our shoppers.
[2:48:39] I think there's a lot of variations on how to do
[2:48:41] do one of these. Some of them include banning all single use utensils as well. You know, we
[2:48:49] could broaden this scope. We could narrow this scope. But I think that it sounds to me
[2:48:53] like the finishing that's worth pursuing. I think already some good work has been done
[2:48:57] by the environmental advisory council and they would either be able to come and present
[2:49:03] to us. They're willing to use their public meeting to host the community business owners
[2:49:11] and others, and I think doing individual outreach to different areas of business is really
[2:49:19] important as well. So I would like to direct staff to do some research, connect with the EIC,
[2:49:30] make sure that the proposal that they have is, you know, vetted against other options,
[2:49:35] and then get the public engagement part started.
[2:49:39] Very good, yep, we will through our new liaison to that group,
[2:49:45] we will get that message delivered, and then for their parts,
[2:49:48] Kevin and John will jump in when asked.
[2:49:58] Okay, so we are moving.
[2:50:00] Moving on to Section 5, reports of board liaisons. I want to open this by reminding us all that we spoke at our reorg meeting that we would change the structure of how commissioners engage with various commissions, boards and committees that are citizens led in our community.
[2:50:27] and we will now have a liaison, one board member will be a liaison to the committees that
[2:50:33] were selected by staff and Commissioner input. It conveniently whittled down to a list
[2:50:41] of seven that staff believe would benefit from having a Commissioner liaison and with conversations
[2:50:49] and communications with all of you. I will just read out the way that we have been assigned
[2:50:55] and then I will open it up to any reports from any of the board liaison.
[2:50:59] So for the Board of Health Commissioner Myers, Dr. Myers is the liaison for the Citizens
[2:51:05] Communications Council. It's Commissioner Abel. The Environmental Advisory Council is myself,
[2:51:12] Commissioner Mulroney. Historical Architectural Review Board is Commissioner Larkin.
[2:51:19] The Planning Commission is Commissioner Jones. Parks and Recreation Board is Commissioner
[2:51:24] Fargey and the Strait Tree Commission is Commissioner Burowski.
[2:51:29] I encourage all of you to connect with the staff liaison of each of those boards or commissions
[2:51:36] if you are new to them.
[2:51:37] I know that some of you have been engaged with these groups for a while and we will use
[2:51:45] this time at the meeting to do any reports back the same way we have done when it was standing
[2:51:50] committees but just a little bit of different structure. I'm hoping that it will enhance our engagement
[2:51:57] with these groups and yeah I think that's it. So if everybody's good with theirs, I mean you've
[2:52:07] all agreed to your assignments ahead of this meeting. So thank you for that. Thank you all of you for
[2:52:12] your service. I was going to I can start the report out because my committee we just had the major
[2:52:20] discussion about whether or not to move forward with looking into the ban of
[2:52:26] plastic bags. And since I am new, a new liaison to that committee, I'm just
[2:52:32] starting to get to know them and the other issues that are important to them.
[2:52:38] So obviously appreciate the service of those citizens and I look forward to
[2:52:42] working on that committee. Is there anyone else who wants to make a report?
[2:52:50] I just wanted to say that I could talk to you off, you know, off the dice, but I'm noticing
[2:52:56] that there is a time conflict between the RML and the zoning.
[2:53:03] We'll talk about that.
[2:53:08] What's that?
[2:53:10] I mean, I'm sorry, planning.
[2:53:12] I thought.
[2:53:13] Right?
[2:53:14] But I said there's, um, Annemarie is also one of the new board members, um, on the
[2:53:19] Radar Memorial Library.
[2:53:22] Hold on, maybe I read it wrong.
[2:53:23] I think planning is Mondays, and the library's on Thursdays, yeah.
[2:53:30] There are also, I would like to add that there is nothing that prohibits any of the board
[2:53:34] members, um, from going to any of the committee's or commissions that they are interested in.
[2:53:39] And this is just to have an official liaison, but a lot of these conversations are things
[2:53:45] that we all want to be involved in, and I encourage you to continue to do that.
[2:53:49] There are also other committees and boards that staff did not identify as needing a liaison,
[2:53:57] but if there's another area of interest, we can always discuss whether to make it another
[2:54:03] official liaison to a committee.
[2:54:07] So I'll just quickly report out on Shade Tree.
[2:54:10] I just want to congratulate Seth Reeser and James Gibbons, who were elected Chair and
[2:54:16] Vice Chair of the Shade Tree Commission at their last meeting in January.
[2:54:23] And thanks to the hard work of Frank Paris, we have a, are continuing the relationship that
[2:54:31] that we have with the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society and they have as part of the bear root tree program we'll be getting 80 shade trees, shade trees and fruit trees that residents can request for free and the township is going to plant them, we're looking for residents who are willing to plant trees in the right of way as we work on, you know, beautifying the right of way or the like the street areas of our township.
[2:55:00] So, if people are interested, they can contact the, they can check out the website, the flyer will be up and will be distributing it soon. I also posted on my Facebook page and I asked all the commissioners to include it in any of their communications out to their ward. So it's a great opportunity to get a free treat. So if the township plants it in the right of way, who is responsible? Because that's been one of the issues we've had the last couple of years is now, you know,
[2:55:29] All these trees we planted 20, 30 years ago,
[2:55:33] your neighbors are saying that they want them out,
[2:55:35] and it's becoming a huge expense for the township.
[2:55:39] I'm sorry, I guess I misspoke.
[2:55:41] It will be on the properties,
[2:55:42] but we want them to be on the streets.
[2:55:45] Like, so we prefer, I mean, people can get it
[2:55:49] and put it in their backyard if they want,
[2:55:50] but the idea is to have, you know,
[2:55:54] realign the streets with trees.
[2:55:56] No, no, I understand that.
[2:55:58] So if it goes along the street in the right of way, who's then responsible for it?
[2:56:03] The homeowner will be responsible for it because they're requesting it.
[2:56:08] But they're going to say the township planted it and it's a township.
[2:56:11] So they're getting a free tree and free planting from the township.
[2:56:16] They are requesting it.
[2:56:17] The township isn't coming and just putting it on their lawn.
[2:56:19] So the residents are requesting it if they want one.
[2:56:22] And then they are going to be responsible for it.
[2:56:24] They need to water it and take care of it.
[2:56:27] 30 years from now when some other person owns that house.
[2:56:30] If you ask for a tree and you have it on your property, it becomes your responsibility.
[2:56:35] But they didn't ask for it.
[2:56:36] There's going to be a new homeowner and they're going to say which we hear now the township planted it, they're responsible.
[2:56:42] Okay, so when you buy a house and there's trees on the property, you technically never ask for any of them, correct?
[2:56:53] I think we need to decide, you know, is the township responsible for trees planted in the right away.
[2:56:59] So the township is planting the trees as a part of an incentive to get people to put more trees in the township.
[2:57:13] So the trees are small, I would gather to say that maybe in 40 years they could be something that people need.
[2:57:21] But if people are requesting a tree, they're accepting this responsibility of a tree.
[2:57:29] I think if there's a way to, I think I understand that the Shade Tree Commission wants the trees to be out front of the property rather than everybody taking a tree and put it in their backyard.
[2:57:42] hard. I think it still makes it the homeowners. It should be on, I would suggest that we make
[2:57:49] sure that it's planted on their property and it's not in the right way. It's just, you
[2:57:53] can see it from the right one. Is that what they mean?
[2:57:57] Yeah, the people can basically say where and their property they want the tree to go, but
[2:58:02] the idea is to put, you know, to kind of re-line the streets with the trees.
[2:58:08] But let me question, but if it's in the right away and it grows up in front of say like a telephone
[2:58:13] pole and I'm throwing some like pico comes and they chop the top off right and then the
[2:58:20] tree dies it's the township that's going to wind up because because I've had that I mean because in
[2:58:25] my neighborhood there's the street the berm the sidewalk and we have a bunch of those where those
[2:58:30] paratroopers, those paratroopers, what are they called?
[2:58:34] Bradford pairs, right?
[2:58:36] So I have residents and I'm like, it's in the right away, I don't want it, it's dying
[2:58:42] get it out in the township, it's done it, they've done it with someone planted those
[2:58:47] Atlantis trees or something and they got all spotted lanternflies on it and it died and because
[2:58:52] it was in the right away, it's my understanding that it's a township's responsibility regardless
[2:58:57] of who plants it.
[2:58:58] So Bill, you're shaking your head, yes, and that's what I believe, and then it becomes
[2:59:02] down to a liability issue too.
[2:59:05] So forget about, you know, plant a tree in my yard, I'll take care of it, now if that
[2:59:11] tree comes down or if it's a faulty tree, or it's a sick tree, it's a disease tree, they
[2:59:16] bought a bad batch, and a branch comes down and destroys a car, God forbid, it hurts a person
[2:59:20] like on the Ratner Trail, I just would have questions and concerns with the liability aspect
[2:59:27] as well. So there's a couple of different things at play here. Commissioner
[2:59:33] Barowski's correct, if somebody, if the current homeowner requests a tree to
[2:59:39] be planted on their property, even if it's in the right away, they are accepting
[2:59:43] responsibility for that tree. If that tree either with that current homeowner or
[2:59:50] some future homeowner becomes a hazardous tree and is dying and needs to be
[2:59:57] remove the township.
[3:00:00] It does take responsibility for trees in the right of way, so the township would be responsible for removing it. In terms of liability, when the owner accepts the new tree being planted on their property, they become liable for that tree. It's their tree on their property, even though it's in the right of way, it's still their tree and their responsibility. Again, the township only gets involved if it becomes hazardous.
[3:00:27] If a subsequent homeowner comes and buys that house doesn't like the tree, it's completely
[3:00:36] healthy and wants it removed simply because they don't like it and learns that the
[3:00:41] township planted it, that is not something the township is going to take responsibility
[3:00:45] for or remove.
[3:00:47] The homeowner through the proper shade tree process can determine if they want to remove
[3:00:53] that tree.
[3:00:54] If that tree grows up and around wires and poles,
[3:00:59] utility companies are going to come take care of it.
[3:01:03] And that's, we've learned with a couple of the projects in the last year
[3:01:08] that we have very little say when that happens.
[3:01:11] But when PICO does come through and do that,
[3:01:14] they are using tree experts to manage the tree as best as possible.
[3:01:21] If, in their opinion, the tree, whatever needs to be removed, is going to endanger the
[3:01:27] life of the tree, they remove the full tree.
[3:01:31] They only trim and shape trees that they feel can be done and also save the tree, or keep
[3:01:37] the tree.
[3:01:40] So the management of the trees is obviously multifaceted, but specific to this program,
[3:01:47] I have the idea is to plant trees, and as soon as the homeowner accepts responsibility for that tree, it is theirs until such time when it becomes a hazard.
[3:01:59] And only then if it's in the right of way will the township take responsibility.
[3:02:07] Commissioner Moroni, can I just say thank you for putting me back on parks and rec.
[3:02:12] And with that, just there's a great little league meeting at the Wayne,
[3:02:19] Pardon me, Ratner Elementary Elementary School.
[3:02:22] We are looking for coaches, they are, I hopefully will be a coach this year, but they're looking
[3:02:27] for coaches anywhere from kindergarten to probably seventh-race grade, depending on where
[3:02:33] you age out.
[3:02:34] So if you are interested in Little League Baseball, the spring, please reach out to me.
[3:02:42] And I can put you in the correct contact with people.
[3:02:46] I do want to say Tammy Cohen just does a fabulous job and anyone that ever watches those meetings when she rattles down her agenda so much out there when it comes to the Sweetheart Dance which was this Friday to a million other things that she has gone on.
[3:03:05] So thank you very much for that and to the board that serves.
[3:03:11] Also, real quick, Commissioner Moroni, back to your point.
[3:03:16] There should be, you know, if it affects your ward and you're not on there, come out.
[3:03:22] Maggie's done a terrific job with phantom or woods.
[3:03:27] And I think that's great.
[3:03:29] And everyone should be engaged and keep your residents engaged.
[3:03:33] Thank you.
[3:03:34] Okay,
[3:03:38] do I hear any other reports from board liaisons, I'm not seeing any, so I am going to move to new business.
[3:03:48] Is there any new business?
[3:03:52] Is there any old business?
[3:03:53] So, for new business, I just want to bring up, so on January 26th, a representative, state representative,
[3:04:03] of Penicwick, circulated a co-sponsorship member for her soon to be introduced
[3:04:09] Creighton Consumer Protection Act, and Jennifer O'Mara is a co-sponsor.
[3:04:14] She is, yeah, a state representative for part of the third ward.
[3:04:20] And I'd like to propose that we create a resolution to support this.
[3:04:42] So I'm not sure that there's a new visit I hear you and I appreciate the
[3:04:48] suggestion that we create a resolution. I think that much of what we were
[3:04:54] hearing at the early part of the meeting is residents asking us to take some sort of
[3:05:01] I'm very interested in continuing to work with staff and the solicitor to find out what that action is. But as Commissioner Jones has made very clear, there is movement at the state level to address this issue. And perhaps residents of Ratner would like to put their support behind that. But moving forward, I think as we all recognize that this is a very important issue for our community.
[3:05:29] I think we're going to continue to look at it at all angles, that being one of them.
[3:05:36] Does anybody have any response on?
[3:05:44] I didn't finish my sentence.
[3:05:46] Well, I feel like the, I don't really know what the resolution is.
[3:05:51] So that's part of my problems.
[3:05:53] So I'm hearing a state resolution.
[3:05:56] Do we want a resolution to back the state?
[3:05:58] But I don't really know what the state's thing says.
[3:05:59] so I actually need to have some more information on that.
[3:06:04] And I also think that it might not be the best role
[3:06:07] for the Board of Commissioners
[3:06:10] in the acute setting of dealing with a business
[3:06:17] that's a proponent of this,
[3:06:19] that we might do better to personally support it
[3:06:21] or not support it rather than as a board.
[3:06:30] Okay, then I will jump to old business,
[3:06:33] Any old business from commissioners and public participation?
[3:06:47] Sarah Pilling, 29 Garrett Avenue, first to the census.
[3:06:52] I worked for the census 10 years ago, not in Ratner Township, but all over the main line.
[3:06:59] And so I was very interested when we reapportioned the township.
[3:07:07] The public was not involved until such time as there were three plans.
[3:07:12] and then the public weighed in, and it is true that it's done mathematically
[3:07:18] residents, and then there was a movement to break up the university, so one
[3:07:25] ward would not be totally full of universities. There was no recollection
[3:07:30] that party ever came into it. In the end, three commissioners, one Republican and
[3:07:39] and two Democrats set the ward system.
[3:07:42] And there was some horse trading at the very end.
[3:07:45] So I just wanted to make that clear
[3:07:48] because I've been here and I've seen it
[3:07:50] and I know none of you participated in.
[3:07:53] The other thing I wanted to say was to thank the township
[3:07:56] for Michelle, Melissa, for being the liaison,
[3:08:02] the sustainability and grant writer, liaison,
[3:08:05] on the green team is moving ahead with a lot of stuff
[3:08:10] right now because we suddenly have some support.
[3:08:14] And Melissa has been in touch with us
[3:08:16] with grant possibilities coming down the tracks
[3:08:19] so that we feel like we can begin to do our work.
[3:08:24] And not that the government has passed it,
[3:08:28] but whether there will be the money,
[3:08:30] there's going to be billions of dollars
[3:08:32] for EV charging stations, and one of the things I think we should begin to look at is where
[3:08:39] would they go? So that when the money appears, you're not going, oh, EV stations, hmm,
[3:08:45] let me see, now where might we? And that's the kind of work that the green team is doing
[3:08:51] is looking at what's coming down the track and looking at possibilities of where things
[3:08:59] would go. How would you change the saldo so that you move more towards EV vehicles?
[3:09:06] That's going to be one of the biggest movements in fighting for climate change.
[3:09:11] Thank you.
[3:09:16] Any other public participation?
[3:09:19] Not seeing any? Do I have a motion to adjourn?
[3:09:24] So moved.
[3:09:24] In a second? Second?
[3:09:26] All in favor?
[3:09:27] Aye.
[3:09:28] Thank you.
[3:09:30] Happy Valentine's Day.