[0:03] Good evening. Red Bank's zoning board of
[0:06] adjustment will come to order this third
[0:08] day of September 2026. The time is 6:30.
[0:12] Roll call, please.
[0:14] >> And Tori
[0:15] >> here.
[0:15] >> Raymond Mass
[0:16] >> here.
[0:17] >> Greg Fitzgerald
[0:18] >> here.
[0:19] >> John Gilde
[0:20] >> here.
[0:20] >> Anna Cruz
[0:24] absent. Vincent Light
[0:26] >> here.
[0:27] >> Paul Kagno
[0:28] >> here. Eugene Harowitz
[0:30] >> here.
[0:31] >> Chris Havens
[0:32] >> here.
[0:33] >> Darothy Cerulo
[0:35] >> here.
[0:36] >> Can in accordance with New Jersey law
[0:39] meeting notice has been published in the
[0:41] icebury park press and the Two River
[0:43] Times and is available on the municipal
[0:45] website and the New Jersey Secretary of
[0:48] State's website. It is also posted on
[0:51] the municipal bulletin board. This
[0:54] meeting complies with the open public
[0:55] meetings act and will be tape recorded.
[0:58] If the applicant chooses to use the
[0:59] court reporter to transcribe the
[1:01] recordings, the board requires a copy of
[1:04] the transcript. A break will occur
[1:06] around 8:00 p.m. in the conference room
[1:07] on the first floor. Public is welcome to
[1:10] attend, but discussion with board
[1:11] members will not be allowed. No new case
[1:14] will be heard after 9:00 p.m. and the
[1:16] cuto off time is 9:30 p.m. Any
[1:18] applicants not heard this will be
[1:21] rescheduled for next meeting. Uh, pledge
[1:23] of
[1:23] >> allegiance.
[1:42] Okay, we have a few administrative
[1:44] matters. Uh, we have a meeting minutes
[1:47] from August 20th. Somebody like to make
[1:50] a motion to approve? I'll move those
[1:52] minutes.
[1:53] >> I'll second.
[1:58] >> I think it just I don't think you need
[2:00] to do roll just
[2:02] >> No. All in favor?
[2:04] >> I
[2:06] >> Any oppose?
[2:07] >> No.
[2:09] >> Okay. We have a couple resolutions. We
[2:11] have a resolution of approval for 44
[2:14] Haden Park.
[2:16] >> Uh Mr. Chairman, that was a uh basically
[2:19] demolition of an existing shed/workshop
[2:22] and construction of a new shed in the
[2:24] same spot. It was a rather
[2:26] straightforward application and the
[2:28] conditions of note are the applicant
[2:30] obtains any necessary demolition
[2:32] permits, no utility service for the new
[2:34] shed except electricity and uh
[2:37] compliance with Shauna's review
[2:39] memorandum. So, I apologize I got that
[2:41] late, but if that's acceptable, we can
[2:42] adopt that as presented.
[2:44] >> Okay. I have a motion to approve that
[2:47] resolution.
[2:49] >> I'll make a motion. Second. I'll second.
[2:54] There you go.
[2:57] » An Tory.
[2:58] >> Yes.
[2:59] >> Raymond Mass.
[3:00] >> Yes.
[3:00] >> Greg Fitzgerald.
[3:02] >> John Gilde.
[3:03] >> Yes.
[3:04] >> Anna Cruz.
[3:06] >> Paul Kagno.
[3:08] >> Yes.
[3:08] >> Eugene Harowitz.
[3:10] >> Yes.
[3:11] >> Okay.
[3:13] We have one more resolution of approval
[3:16] for 44 Irving Place. Mr. Mr. Chairman,
[3:19] that was an application that which was
[3:21] approved effectuating a number of
[3:23] improvements to a lot containing a
[3:25] single family home with a detached
[3:27] garage and that was on Irving Place and
[3:31] uh the conditions of note were the
[3:33] garage is not going because remember it
[3:36] was going to be a larger garage uh so it
[3:38] would be technically a principal
[3:39] structure but uh the expanded garage is
[3:42] not going to be a principal use and it's
[3:44] only going to be used for storage and
[3:45] parking purposes. Uh the garage is not
[3:47] to be used for office space. No, uh
[3:51] utility services except electricity and
[3:54] the stairs in the garage uh definitely
[3:56] pull down staircase. It's going to
[3:58] comply with the height. The bill code
[4:00] doors are going to be removed and no
[4:02] windows on the garage facing the rear
[4:04] property line and um I think that was
[4:09] the the gist of it in compliance with
[4:10] Shauna's review memorandum. And there
[4:13] was also um I believe a a placement of trees uh and the tree replacements
[4:20] have to be reviewed and approved by
[4:22] Shauna in terms of the details of sizing
[4:25] and it has to be from the burrow's
[4:27] approved natural species list. If that's
[4:30] acceptable, we can present that subject
[4:32] to legal and engineering review if
[4:33] that's acceptable.
[4:35] >> Okay. Thank you for that short
[4:37] resolution, Mr. Kennedy. Anybody like to
[4:40] make approve?
[4:43] >> I'll make motion.
[4:46] >> I'll second.
[4:49] >> Any
[4:50] >> yes.
[4:51] >> Raymond Mass.
[4:52] >> Yes.
[4:53] >> Greg Fitzgerald.
[4:54] >> Yes.
[4:55] >> John Gilde.
[4:56] >> Yes.
[4:57] >> Vincent Light.
[4:58] >> Yes.
[4:59] >> Paul Kagno.
[5:00] >> Yes.
[5:01] >> Eugene Harowitz.
[5:02] >> Yes.
[5:03] >> And Chris Havens.
[5:06] Thank you.
[5:07] >> Okay. New business. We have 56 Newman
[5:10] Springs Road.
[5:12] >> Okay, this is Jennifer Crimco and uh
[5:15] good evening and welcome back. And as um
[5:20] we're getting ready, I just wanted to do
[5:22] a couple real quick things. First up, is
[5:24] there anyone here who had any questions
[5:27] or comments regarding the sufficiency of
[5:29] the notice they uh received? And uh just
[5:32] for the record, the applicant did notice
[5:36] uh the individual and owners in Redbank
[5:39] and in Shrewsbury. So we thank you. All
[5:41] right. No comments or concerns regarding
[5:43] the notice. So the board secretary and I
[5:45] reviewed the notice and found everything
[5:47] to be in order. So it would be my humble
[5:49] opinion that we have jurisdiction to
[5:51] proceed tonight. So for the record, I
[5:53] just want to put uh some pretty unique
[5:56] aspects of this um file into the record.
[6:00] Now, why do we want to do that? We want
[6:02] to do it because one, we want to make a
[6:03] complete record. Two, we want to make
[6:05] sure everyone on the board and in the
[6:07] public um is all on the same page. And
[6:10] we want to make sure everyone has a
[6:12] basic understanding of where we started,
[6:13] where we went, and where we're going.
[6:16] And that's important because this
[6:18] application, Jennifer, I think started
[6:20] three maybe four years ago. And uh
[6:24] different different types of uh
[6:25] different board members. So, I just want
[6:27] to make sure that we're all on uh
[6:29] record. So we begin. So previously this
[6:32] applicant submitted a development
[6:34] application to the Burough of Redbank to
[6:36] demolish the existing billboard sign at
[6:39] 187 Riverside Avenue and uh it's right
[6:43] uh basically um next to the uh the
[6:46] Beerino restaurant and we had a lot of
[6:52] um hearings on that. there was a lot of
[6:55] public comments and it was a very
[6:57] nuanced and uh complicated burough
[7:00] ordinance that was in uh in effect at
[7:03] the time. So we had a lot of hearings
[7:04] and I said a lot of public comments and
[7:07] I think we also had three different
[7:09] variations of the billboard proposal. So
[7:13] ultimately at the end of the
[7:14] presentation, the board voted to deny
[7:17] that application and a memorializing
[7:19] resolution was adopted and the
[7:22] applicants filed a prerogative lawsuit
[7:24] seeking to reverse or overturn the board
[7:27] decision. So, as is standard and as I
[7:30] was authorized, I filed an answer to
[7:32] that complaint and the matter is
[7:34] presently be pending before the uh
[7:36] superior court and I guess we're sort of
[7:39] on a timeout uh pending this uh
[7:41] potential uh settlement and and hearing.
[7:45] So when in the course of a typical
[7:47] prerogative writ litigation case
[7:49] whenever we talk about a potential
[7:51] settlement we reference the term
[7:53] whispering woods hearing and that name
[7:56] and that phrase whispering woods will be
[7:58] used a lot tonight and I would like to
[8:00] just take two minutes just to explain
[8:03] and most of us up here know it because
[8:05] we've been having talk talks about it
[8:07] but I just want to explain uh Whispering
[8:10] Woods was a name of a case a local case
[8:13] and in that case. Um there were
[8:16] objectors to an application and at the
[8:18] end of the planning board or zoning
[8:20] board presentation, uh the application
[8:22] was denied and the objectors clapped and
[8:25] they were happy and and uh they thought
[8:28] that was the end of it and the um the
[8:33] party who got denied ultimately
[8:36] appealed, instituted litigation and the
[8:39] case was ultimately settled whereby the
[8:41] planning board or the zoning board
[8:42] authorized the construction of something
[8:44] slightly different than what was
[8:46] initially uh proposed. And construction
[8:49] started and the objectors, you can
[8:51] imagine, went a little uh uh were very
[8:55] confused and they said, "Wait a minute."
[8:57] They were concerned because they said,
[8:58] "We were here when this application was
[9:00] denied and uh how is this applicant now
[9:03] building and what gives and how did that
[9:05] happen and is that right?" So there was
[9:08] litigation again and the outcome of that
[9:10] whispering woods case is that if a
[9:14] planning board or zoning board are going
[9:16] to settle a litigation case involving a
[9:19] potential approval uh of an of a new
[9:22] application, there has to be notice to
[9:25] everyone and it has to be done in a
[9:26] public hearing uh with notice and
[9:29] testimony and and has to be transparent.
[9:32] And at its simplest and most basic
[9:34] level, I think we can all sort of
[9:35] understand that that makes sense. That
[9:38] everything has to be done transparently
[9:40] and in the open so everyone can see and
[9:43] question and comment and voice opinion.
[9:46] So when we hear or use that phrase
[9:49] whispering woods hearing, that's just a
[9:51] reference to the fact that it's a
[9:53] potential settlement of a prerogative
[9:55] writ litigation case and it needs to be
[9:57] publicly reviewed, publicly vetted,
[10:00] publicly discussed, publicly debated
[10:02] with all that um uh you know in in the
[10:06] view of the public. So tonight's hearing
[10:09] is in many ways a very typical
[10:11] whispering woods hearing uh because it's
[10:14] including the same applicant and it's
[10:16] includes the um billboard proposal and
[10:20] there's public notice uh and we're going
[10:23] to have a public hearing but there are
[10:26] also many other factors present which
[10:28] make this unlike many other typical
[10:31] prerogative wood uh prerogative writ
[10:33] whispering wood uh hearing cases and
[10:36] Some of those unique factors that are
[10:38] present tonight are uh involve the
[10:41] following. One, we're talking about a
[10:42] totally different a totally different
[10:44] property. The first application that was
[10:47] denied that was the subject of the
[10:48] litigation was dealing with the
[10:49] billboard at 187 Riverside Avenue.
[10:52] Tonight, we're dealing with a potential
[10:54] billboard on Newman Springs Road. Uh
[10:56] Sean, it's different zones. Uh I forget
[10:58] what zone H and now it's the HBD zone.
[11:02] It's a different property owner. It's
[11:04] totally different surrounding uses and on top of that, Shauna, we have a
[11:08] different a different ordinance in
[11:10] effect. Um at last time when we uh came
[11:15] for what I'm going to say round one, um
[11:17] there was understandably some questions
[11:20] and concerns about the nuances of the
[11:23] ordinance. So, um that ordinance has
[11:26] been revised and uh readopted and
[11:29] clarified. And there was also uh
[11:31] Jennifer I think in round one there was
[11:34] a question that whether you needed site
[11:36] plan approval whether you needed use
[11:37] variance approval whether you need a
[11:38] bulk variance approval and I think we
[11:40] had 12 interpretations uh on on on the
[11:43] docket. So now all that is eliminated.
[11:46] We know that use variance approval is
[11:48] needed and um interestingly the
[11:52] underlying testimony from the three or
[11:55] four hearings that we had uh on the in
[11:57] round one are not necessarily relevant
[12:01] uh to this site or the nature of the
[12:04] surrounding uses. Um and that's why
[12:06] after a lot of debate the what we agreed
[12:10] was that you everyone was more than
[12:12] welcome to listen to those tapes but you
[12:13] did not have to and also
[12:17] we all agreed that this uh would be
[12:20] technically a new application. So Mr.
[12:23] Chair I have um sort of coined a new
[12:27] legal phrase uh instead of I'm I'm
[12:29] calling it a whispering woods type of
[12:31] hearing. So, I don't know if it's going
[12:33] to uh get any traction, but that that's
[12:35] sort of my uh middle ground there. So,
[12:38] now we return back to our procedural
[12:40] history. So, as part of the litigation
[12:42] process, uh the board's representatives
[12:44] and the applicants representative
[12:46] discussed some potential settlement
[12:49] options. Um again of course in the
[12:52] context of the Whispering Woods case law
[12:54] and the settlement concept um generally
[12:58] involved uh the following and it
[13:01] involved uh and we'll go into much more
[13:04] detail of this later on but it involved
[13:06] um the removal of the billboard at 187
[13:10] uh Riverside Avenue. It uh involved the
[13:13] permanent removal and abandonment or of
[13:15] seven or eight other uh static
[13:18] billboards uh in the Redbank area. It
[13:22] involved um use uh the bureau's use of
[13:26] the billboard uh at no charge for
[13:28] certain designated uh time and then also
[13:31] in the use of a um for emergencies. And
[13:36] there was also uh a moratorum on
[13:39] converting other billboards and we'll go
[13:40] into that in a little bit. But we had a pretty extensive uh settlement
[13:45] agreement. And for what I would like to
[13:48] do, I'm going to mark as B1 is the
[13:51] resolution of this board conditionally
[13:53] authorizing the uh the settlement
[13:56] agreement. And then I'm going to mark as
[13:58] two B2 the actual settlement agreement.
[14:02] But um uh again, it's sort of uh the
[14:07] settlement agreement very clearly. Uh
[14:10] well, tonight's hearing will be um you
[14:13] know, all like all other applications.
[14:15] The applicant's going to have the burden
[14:17] of proof. They're going to need to
[14:18] satisfy the legal standards and they're
[14:20] going to have to address your answers
[14:21] and questions and comments and it may be
[14:24] approved. It may be denied. It may be
[14:26] approved with conditions. Um but uh also
[14:30] in many respects because of the afores
[14:32] whispering woods this application is
[14:34] very different from our other typical
[14:35] hearings. But I think before I forget
[14:38] and given the um extremely nuanced
[14:41] procedural history, there's a lot of
[14:43] stuff that has happened already in this
[14:45] uh how we got here and I just want to
[14:48] make uh very clear that though there is
[14:51] a conditional settlement agreement in
[14:53] effect. One of the big conditions is
[14:56] conditioned on the fact that the um
[15:00] board approves the application at a
[15:02] whispering woods hearing and there is no
[15:06] obligation uh to to do that. It based
[15:09] going to be based upon the testimony and
[15:10] evidence presented. Now real quickly uh
[15:13] before we start I want to uh give a
[15:15] couple of shoutouts to a bunch of
[15:17] people. We've been before the court and
[15:19] the court has been very helpful in
[15:22] managing and facilitating potential
[15:25] settlement without in my opinion without
[15:27] crossing uh that line. And I want to um
[15:30] I want to thank um we've got Ed Purcell
[15:34] who was the applicants litigation
[15:36] attorney and Jennifer Crimco who's their
[15:38] zoning attorney and and the outfront
[15:40] representatives. Um, obviously we've had
[15:42] a lot of uh positions where we have
[15:46] legally been 100% diametrically opposed
[15:49] to each other, but between Ed and
[15:50] Jennifer and myself, we've been very
[15:52] collegial and very respectful and uh on
[15:55] many points, we just agreed to disagree.
[15:58] And uh at the risk of getting personal,
[16:00] I think we probably need a little bit
[16:01] more of that in the world. I want to
[16:03] thank our friends at at TNM. um they
[16:06] reviewed things uh in an expeditious
[16:08] fashion but um most importantly without
[16:12] sacrificing any thoroughess or
[16:14] completeness. Mr. Chairman, I absolutely
[16:17] want to thank my friend Shauna. She's
[16:19] been wonderful for this thing for three
[16:21] or four years. She's dealt with the the
[16:23] initial ordinance and the handling of
[16:25] the the new ordinance and she uh I don't
[16:28] see it myself, but apparently I'm
[16:29] annoying and I I' I've must have spoken
[16:31] to her, you know, sometimes 15 times a
[16:34] day. And I um if I was texting
[16:38] uh how great she is, I would end the
[16:40] text with a whole bunch of happy face
[16:42] emojis and thumbs up emojis because
[16:44] Shauna is is is the real deal. And I
[16:46] also, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank
[16:48] you and the board members because this
[16:49] has not been easy and it's been
[16:51] complicated and it's been long and it's
[16:53] been different boards uh different
[16:55] mixtures of boards over the years and uh
[16:58] you have all and I'm serious about this.
[17:00] You you've been very patient. You've
[17:01] been very thorough. You've been very uh
[17:03] committed and you're all volunteers and
[17:06] I think you're for the record I think
[17:08] you're wonderful ambassadors to this
[17:09] town and I think the board is is is
[17:11] great uh to have you. Uh so anyway,
[17:15] against this um we're now here and um we
[17:20] should just do a couple of normal
[17:22] things. So before I'm going to uh shoot
[17:24] it over to
[17:26] uh Jennifer Crimco and she's going to
[17:29] enter her appearance and we'll also do a
[17:30] little bit of conflict check as to who
[17:32] the principles of the owner are and and
[17:33] the applicant. But we're going to do a
[17:35] couple of things. So, first up, we're
[17:37] going to swear in uh Shauna uh Ebanks,
[17:40] who's a planner and our director of
[17:41] community um I'm sorry, a director of e
[17:45] community development. And um we're
[17:48] going to swear in Carolyn Ryder from
[17:50] TNM, who's the burrow planner, and we're
[17:52] also going to see swear in Jackie Dur uh
[17:56] our board engineer from TNM Associates.
[17:58] So, uh, ladies, if you wouldn't mind
[18:00] raising your right hands, do you swear
[18:03] that the information and testimony
[18:04] you're about to provide to the extent
[18:07] you provide any will be the truth, the
[18:09] whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
[18:10] so help you God. Okay. And before we um
[18:15] mark uh the items into evidence, just a
[18:18] couple little caveats. And ultimately,
[18:20] uh Jennifer Crimco here is going to be
[18:22] able to say, "Hey, I agree with
[18:24] everything you said, or I agree with
[18:26] half of it. uh you need to add 08 and I
[18:29] want you to take out 12, but we can uh
[18:31] do all that. But a couple of caveats. So
[18:34] the initial vote was taken um I think in
[18:38] 2024. I'm not sure. Um but uh everyone
[18:42] here tonight is eligible to participate.
[18:45] So if you weren't on the board back
[18:47] then, that's okay. If you voted no back
[18:49] then, that's okay. If you didn't even
[18:52] live in Redbank at the time, that's
[18:53] okay. Um, so it's uh everyone um and
[18:58] it's okay if you voted, you know, you
[19:01] entertained the settlement agreement or
[19:02] you didn't want to entertain the
[19:03] settlement agreement. This is a brand
[19:05] new start, new application. And
[19:07] Charlene, for the record, even though I
[19:09] said everyone can participate, this is a
[19:11] use variance application. So only seven
[19:14] members will ultimately vote. And
[19:18] remember uh in order for a use variance
[19:20] application to be approved, we need uh
[19:22] the applicant needs five affirmative yes
[19:25] votes. So uh to mark into the record uh
[19:29] we're going to mark as A1 is the
[19:31] application package. A2 is the minor
[19:35] site plan prepared by dynamic
[19:37] engineering and that's one sheet dated
[19:39] July 8th 2026.
[19:42] A3 is the survey dynamic survey one
[19:44] sheet dated April 23rd 2026.
[19:48] A4 is the application submission letter
[19:50] prepared by Jennifer Crimco and it was
[19:53] July 16th, 2026.
[19:56] A5 is the intent to proceed. And I'm
[20:00] going to mark the TNM Associates review
[20:02] letter dated August 14th, 2026 as B3.
[20:06] And a couple of real other real quick
[20:08] things. Um A6 will be the outfront uh
[20:13] protocol A and B and that uh Jennifer
[20:16] Krimco and her team will explain that sort of explains some of the uh the
[20:23] no charge uh protocol that the at which
[20:25] the bureau can use the uh billboard if
[20:29] the application is approved. A7 are the
[20:32] sign details
[20:34] and A8 is a sign detail sketch exhibit
[20:40] and we have A9 is an aerial exhibit and
[20:43] A10 is the lighting plans and view angle
[20:46] exhibit. A1 is a billboard removal
[20:50] exhibit. A12 is a disclosure.
[20:53] A13 we're going to mark as protocol A.
[20:56] A14 we're going to mark as protocol B.
[20:59] And then A15 is a communication from uh
[21:02] Dynamic and that's dated August 24th,
[21:04] 2026. And last but not least, I just
[21:07] want to say one quick thing before I
[21:08] forgot. Um part of our settlement
[21:12] agreement did not require
[21:15] uh the applicant to use um the uh
[21:20] Jennifer the what is view technology?
[21:23] Narrow view technology. and Jennifer uh
[21:26] Krimpco sent me an email the other day
[21:28] saying, "Hey, even though it's not
[21:29] required, we are going to provide that."
[21:32] So, we thank you and you can testify
[21:33] into that later on. So, against that
[21:36] very long introduction, I thank the
[21:38] board members. I thank members of the
[21:39] public. And I turn it over to Jennifer
[21:41] Crimco.
[21:42] >> Good evening, members of the board. It's
[21:43] nice to see everyone and it's nice to
[21:45] see some of the new faces. Jennifer
[21:47] Crimco, on behalf of the applicant, I
[21:49] would say I agree with 98% of what Kevin
[21:52] did. I have some questions before I can
[21:54] agree to a hundred. So before I go into
[21:56] it, if the it's okay with Mr. Chair,
[21:58] I'll just go through some of these
[21:59] things.
[22:00] >> So
[22:01] >> Jennifer, please speak enough
[22:03] >> on the way down. I will.
[22:04] >> Sorry. Um, so a couple things. First,
[22:08] the site plan was
[22:12] not one page. It's a four page and it's
[22:15] actually revised through 82426.
[22:20] And those are the ones that were
[22:22] submitted to the board on 824.
[22:24] >> So let's mark that as A16 just to be
[22:28] clear.
[22:28] >> Okay. So the first one was the original
[22:31] and then this is the right and and just
[22:33] so the board is aware this was done as a
[22:35] result of the comments from the planner
[22:37] and the engineer. We added some more
[22:39] details to the plan. So A16 is the site
[22:41] plan revised through 82426.
[22:46] Okay. And when you talk about the sign
[22:48] detail
[22:50] and the sign detail sketch exhibit,
[22:54] I just want to make sure, sorry, Mr.
[22:57] Chair,
[23:02] the the aerial exhibit is
[23:03] self-explanatory. The lighting view and
[23:05] sign view angle is self-explanatory.
[23:08] Billboard removal is self-explanatory.
[23:10] May I just see what you're referencing
[23:12] as the as A7 and A8? You know, and Sean,
[23:15] I was reviewing from your um um
[23:19] computer. Okay.
[23:21] >> We don't have a sign detail. What we do
[23:24] have is a sign detail comparison
[23:25] exhibit. And I think that that was
[23:28] probably what those were intended to be.
[23:31] >> So, and let's just mark that A17 sign
[23:34] detail comparison exhibit.
[23:36] >> Right. But I don't know what A seven and
[23:39] eight are.
[23:42] So, originally I had sent you one that
[23:44] had them in the vertical and then Dan
[23:47] submitted one that has them in the
[23:49] horizontal to hand out. So, I think
[23:52] Kevin, if it's okay with you, they
[23:53] should probably be A7 and 8 instead of a
[23:56] new exhibit.
[23:57] >> Um, okay.
[24:00] >> So, A A7 can be the sign detail vertical
[24:04] and A8 can be the horizontal. And it is
[24:06] the same exhibit. It's just how it's
[24:08] presented.
[24:09] >> Got it.
[24:13] >> Okay. And then
[24:15] the only other thing, and it's not a
[24:16] disagreement. I tend to agree with you
[24:18] that this is not a typical Whispering
[24:20] Woods, but I'm not comfortable calling
[24:22] it a Whispering Woods type because I
[24:24] believe this is a Whispering Woods case.
[24:25] I think we're following the letter of
[24:27] the law 100%. So, I would like to
[24:29] characterize this as a Whispering Woods
[24:31] hearing. Although not a traditional one,
[24:33] it still falls within what a Whispering
[24:35] Woods hearing would be. So, you're not
[24:37] going to accept my coined phrase of
[24:38] whispering woods type, but we're okay.
[24:40] >> Not for this one. The rest. So,
[24:44] as always, and I think I said this at
[24:46] all the prior hearings I've been here,
[24:47] and every hearing I've ever been to
[24:49] where Kevin is the board attorney, you
[24:51] stole a lot of my thunder. Um, I know
[24:53] that in an abundance of caution, you
[24:55] like to be sure to uh put everything on
[24:58] the record, and I appreciate that, and I
[25:00] thank you for that. And I echo Kevin and
[25:03] thanking him and the board members and
[25:05] Shauna for working so hard to get us
[25:07] where we are today.
[25:10] Um
[25:11] I have two additional exhibits that were
[25:15] submitted in advance.
[25:17] So A7 and I have handouts of everything
[25:20] for the board. I see that everyone on
[25:24] this side is with me plus one on that
[25:26] side is with me. So there's only a
[25:27] couple members of public. I did print
[25:30] enough to to have them. So, my first
[25:32] question is for all of the exhibits that
[25:34] um Kevin just went through, do you
[25:36] already have your copies or would you
[25:38] like me to hand out additional copies?
[25:43] » I think we have an older version of the
[25:45] site plan, right?
[25:46] >> No, no, no. Not the not the big one. I'm
[25:48] sorry, Mr. Gild Day. I'm just talking
[25:50] about these types of exhibits that we
[25:51] went through. So,
[25:53] >> yeah, please. Yeah.
[26:05] Then the remainder we can put on the
[26:07] table any member of the public.
[26:09] >> And then Jennifer, just so I know, this
[26:11] first one here, what number is that?
[26:15] >> Which one's the first one?
[26:16] >> Um,
[26:18] >> that is a eight.
[26:21] >> Eight. Got it.
[26:22] >> The second one is the aerial. So that is
[26:25] a nine.
[26:29] Thank you.
[26:31] >> The third one is the light and view
[26:34] angle. That's a 10.
[26:38] » Got it.
[26:46] » The next one is the billboard removal
[26:48] exhibit.
[27:00] And tell me when you're ready, Kevin,
[27:01] because
[27:01] >> I'm ready.
[27:02] >> Okay.
[27:03] >> A17
[27:04] is a public benefit package,
[27:09] and you're going to hear testimony uh
[27:11] from the representative from outfront
[27:13] with regard to the types of public
[27:15] messaging that we uh provide.
[27:18] >> You know what, Jen? Just hold on. What
[27:19] number is this one?
[27:23] That one is A1.
[27:24] >> A1. And then one last one. This is
[27:29] >> that is the lighting view angle exhibit.
[27:32] >> And that's a
[27:34] >> I need to look real quick. That's A10.
[27:37] >> Got it. All right. And then A17 is a
[27:40] public benefit
[27:42] >> photo pack.
[27:43] >> Photo package.
[28:07] again. If there's any member of the
[28:08] public that wants to see these, they're
[28:10] available.
[28:15] Uh
[28:17] and then A18
[28:23] is uh the renderings
[28:27] of
[28:28] the billboard, the proposed billboard
[28:31] and the relocated commercial sign as to
[28:33] what it will appear from various sites.
[28:36] I'm sorry, from various distances public
[28:39] and west.
[29:05] I'm just going to I'll I'll call up
[29:07] Andrew and have him get situated, but
[29:10] we'll wait until everything Yes.
[29:42] Now an acceptable time to ask a
[29:43] clarifying question on the whispering
[29:45] woods aspect of the hearing. Okay.
[29:48] >> Um does the whispering woods uh hearing
[29:52] meaning this this application is
[29:54] distinct from the old one, right? But um
[29:58] does the does that mean that the
[30:00] settlement can have bearing on tonight's
[30:03] >> Absolutely.
[30:04] >> Okay. So you intend to include um the
[30:06] terms of the settlement as special
[30:08] reasons or positive criteria in the
[30:11] >> I I I love your use of the planning
[30:15] vernacular. The that those aren't going
[30:18] to be the special reasons necessarily.
[30:20] So a couple of things if I may, Kevin,
[30:22] to just supplement what you so aptly uh
[30:25] stated. So, Whispering Woods hearing,
[30:27] yes, we have to present the revised
[30:29] plans. We have to put our proofs on as
[30:30] it relates to the revised plans, but
[30:33] essentially a Whispering Woods hearing
[30:34] is not only the approval of the
[30:36] application should you so approve it. It
[30:38] is the acceptance of the terms of the
[30:40] settlement. So, what does that mean?
[30:42] Everything we agreed to in that
[30:43] settlement that we signed, if the board
[30:46] approves that tonight, then those all
[30:49] apply as conditions. So everything
[30:52] within that settlement would apply to
[30:54] any approval that was granted tonight.
[30:55] We're not here to relitigate those.
[30:57] We've already agreed to it, both the
[31:00] board as well as the applicant. As Kevin
[31:02] had said, that doesn't mean that there
[31:03] can't be other reasonable conditions
[31:04] imposed, which we'll go through. Um, it
[31:08] is not the conditions themselves that
[31:10] are the public benefit or the special
[31:12] reasons, but what we're promising to do
[31:15] as part of those conditions add to the
[31:18] special reasons. And I think Mr. Gild
[31:20] day. I think that that gives me the
[31:21] opportunity to tell you who's going to
[31:22] be here tonight and who's going to
[31:24] testify and who's going to testify to
[31:26] what. So, I have Andrew Arvey here as a
[31:28] representative of Outfront. I'm going to
[31:31] go through the process of swearing him
[31:33] in, having him tell you all about
[31:35] himself. uh he will be giving some of
[31:38] the background as it relates to uh who
[31:40] outfront is what the what we are
[31:44] required to put on the record uh as
[31:46] outfront as to what we have the
[31:47] authority to stipulate to in the
[31:49] settlement as well as answer some
[31:51] questions. The technical aspects of this
[31:54] will be handled by Dan Dockerty who is a
[31:57] uh principal engineer at Dynamic
[31:59] Engineering. He will go through all of
[32:02] the zoning criteria, what's existing,
[32:05] what we're proposing. He'll go through a
[32:07] lot of the exhibits. Um, and he will
[32:10] offer a lot of the detailed information
[32:12] with regard to lighting, luminance,
[32:15] impacts on, uh, the neighborhood and
[32:19] residential and things like that. Then I
[32:22] also have Christine Capone here. She's a
[32:24] professional planner. Uh, she will offer
[32:26] all of the planning testimony in support
[32:28] of the application. So she will go
[32:30] through the proofs that we need to as it
[32:32] relates to particular suitability, the
[32:35] purposes of land use which is all part
[32:37] of the positive and then the negative no
[32:39] substantial detriment to the public good
[32:41] or to the master plan or the zone plan
[32:43] and then the Medici reconciliation. So
[32:46] she'll go through all of that. So each
[32:49] witness has a distinct part that's all
[32:52] kind of related. So did that answer that
[32:54] for you? Yeah, I understand that the
[32:56] procedure, but um I think I also need to
[32:58] hear from our council too that we that's
[33:01] how that's also your understanding of
[33:02] the
[33:02] >> work 100% that uh if let's just assume
[33:06] for purpose of this discussion that the
[33:09] application is approved um the
[33:12] conditions of approval would include
[33:14] compliance with the settlement agreement
[33:15] and we will more clearly specify every
[33:18] single condition. Uh, yes. So, that 100%
[33:22] is true.
[33:23] And then Jennifer, just um and I I I
[33:26] forget. I have so many papers here. Do
[33:28] you recall offh hand the name of the
[33:30] owner of the property?
[33:32] Um, I just want to do a quick internal
[33:35] conflict check. Shauna, do you remember?
[33:38] >> No, no, no. The legal
[33:41] >> Yeah, I think it's Food Properties LLC.
[33:43] >> Okay. And then, and then the um outfront
[33:46] media. So, hearing those names. any
[33:49] questions or comments or concerns about
[33:51] conflicts or potential conflicts?
[33:52] >> And I can just tell you some of the
[33:54] representatives for the owner um are
[33:56] Scadudo and Aelina and Outfront is a
[34:00] publicly traded company. So there are no
[34:02] owners of 10% or more. That would create
[34:04] a conflict.
[34:04] >> Thank you.
[34:05] >> So unless you own a lot of stock in
[34:07] Outfront, uh I would say that you would
[34:09] not be conflicted out.
[34:11] >> Got it. So you want to swear in Andrew?
[34:13] >> I would. Thank you.
[34:14] >> Andrew, if you could just state your
[34:16] first and last name, please.
[34:17] >> Sure. That's Andrew Arve. That's spelled
[34:20] A R. V as in Victor. A Y.
[34:23] >> A R V A Y.
[34:26] >> Yes, that's correct.
[34:26] >> Okay. And your address?
[34:28] >> 185 US Highway 46, Fairfield, New
[34:31] Jersey.
[34:31] >> All right. Do you swear that the
[34:32] information and testimony you're about
[34:34] to provide will be the truth to the best
[34:35] of your knowledge to help you God?
[34:37] >> Yes.
[34:37] >> And just for the record, you're
[34:38] testifying tonight in your capacity as
[34:40] >> real estate representative for Alfront
[34:42] Media.
[34:44] >> Okay. Okay. And just uh bring that mic
[34:46] really close to you so that we hear.
[34:50] >> You're more comfortable with that then
[34:51] feel free.
[34:52] >> Uh real estate representative for
[34:54] Alfront Media. That better everybody?
[34:56] >> Yep. Okay.
[34:56] >> Keep it close to your mouth if you don't
[34:57] mind. So Andrew just take a moment to
[35:00] give uh the board the benefit of your
[35:02] experience
[35:03] uh with regard to real estate and what
[35:06] you do for out front as well as with
[35:08] outfront.
[35:09] >> Sure. So, I've uh been involved in your
[35:11] mouth. Sorry. I have 17 years of
[35:13] experience in real estate sales,
[35:15] leasing, and development. I've been with
[35:17] Outfront Media for over a year and a
[35:19] half now as a real estate representative
[35:20] for New Jersey. My roles in my current
[35:23] position are I work directly with the
[35:25] senior real estate manager of New Jersey
[35:28] in the modernization of the existing
[35:30] billboards and identifying and
[35:32] developing new sites as well as all
[35:34] aspects of portfolio management
[35:37] including leasing and permitting.
[35:39] >> Okay. And you're authorized to speak on
[35:40] behalf of the company and you're
[35:42] authorized to agree to conditions or
[35:45] make commitments on behalf of the
[35:46] company tonight.
[35:47] >> Yes.
[35:48] >> Okay. Great. So for those board members
[35:51] that were not here at the last meeting
[35:52] and were not uh didn't have the
[35:54] opportunity to read the many many
[35:56] transcripts, if you could just take a
[35:58] few minutes to talk about who Outfront
[36:00] is and what they do.
[36:02] >> Sure. So Outfront is a national Alfront
[36:04] Media is a nationally outdoor
[36:06] advertising company. We are publicly
[36:08] traded on the New York Stock Exchange
[36:10] under the symbol OU.
[36:13] In New Jersey, we operate over 3,500
[36:16] billboards, 117 of which are digital,
[36:20] and we've been operating digital
[36:22] billboards in New Jersey since 2009.
[36:25] >> Okay. And out and and I'm going to use
[36:27] outfront as a shortened version rather
[36:30] than saying outfront media LLC every
[36:32] time. I'm sure the board can appreciate
[36:34] that. Um, so outfront has a signed lease
[36:38] with the property owner for this
[36:40] proposed billboard.
[36:41] >> Yes, that is correct.
[36:42] >> Okay. And the lease is for how long?
[36:44] >> The lease is 15 years with a 5-year
[36:46] outfront option.
[36:48] >> Okay, great. And outfront would maintain
[36:52] and operate the sign. Is that correct?
[36:54] >> Yes, that is correct.
[36:55] >> If it were to be approved.
[36:58] Okay. Um
[37:01] why when when we went through the
[37:03] settlement process
[37:05] um and we were discussing potential
[37:07] alternative sites within Redbank that
[37:10] would uh be suited for this billboard.
[37:14] What made you pick this location?
[37:17] >> So the reason we selected this location
[37:19] was the lot suitability. It's a good
[37:21] location in terms of depth.
[37:23] >> I see that some board members are not
[37:25] hearing you. So I need you to hold it
[37:26] closer.
[37:27] >> Okay. Can you use that better everybody?
[37:28] Sorry about that. Uh the reason we
[37:30] selected this site was its good location
[37:33] in terms of depth and size of the lot,
[37:35] ease of access for the construction and
[37:37] the maintenance of the sign as well as
[37:40] that it can be constructed to meet all
[37:43] the NJ DOT regulations and zoning
[37:45] requirements. It does not interfere with
[37:48] any existing use on the property as well
[37:50] as the ingress or the egress of the
[37:52] property. Newman Springs Road is a main
[37:54] thoroughfare in nature commercial
[37:56] highway and it was a stipulation of the
[37:59] settlement to find a location on Newman
[38:01] Springs Road.
[38:02] >> Okay. And just from your perspective, it
[38:04] being in their business district along a
[38:07] very heavily trafficked road is
[38:08] appropriate location for the billboard.
[38:10] >> Correct. It's suitable exactly for the
[38:12] traveling public.
[38:13] >> Okay. And I'm going to have Dan go
[38:15] through what we're actually proposing by
[38:17] way of billboard because he has all of
[38:19] the exhibits. And you'd indicated that
[38:21] we meet uh state DOT requirements. So
[38:25] that involves everything related to what
[38:27] the DOT regulates with regard to safety,
[38:30] the messaging, how often uh the message
[38:34] when the how long the messages have to
[38:37] stay on before they can change, the
[38:39] immediate changing of the message. Is
[38:40] that correct?
[38:41] >> Yes, that is correct.
[38:42] >> Okay. And those in your understanding
[38:44] all of those are put in place by the DOT
[38:46] and the statute to ensure safety for the
[38:49] motoring public.
[38:49] >> Correct. Safety, visibility, and
[38:51] traffic.
[38:52] >> Okay. And all of these requirements are
[38:54] what is applied to any billboard, any
[38:57] digital billboard throughout the state.
[38:59] >> Correct.
[39:03] » Okay. Um, as it relates to digital
[39:06] billboarding, why don't you take a
[39:08] moment to explain to the board what the
[39:11] requirements are with distances to other
[39:13] billboards.
[39:13] >> So, for a digital billboard in the state
[39:15] of New Jersey per the NJ DOT outdoor
[39:18] advertising regulations, it needs to be
[39:21] 3,000 ft linear feet from another
[39:23] digital billboard. So, there cannot be
[39:25] another digital billboard within 3,000
[39:27] ft of an existing one.
[39:29] >> Okay. Or proposed. So, should this be
[39:31] approved?
[39:32] >> Correct.
[39:32] >> Okay. So whether whether outfront owns
[39:36] it or not that's just the regulation
[39:38] >> correct from that.
[39:39] >> Can I just ask does that mean also I
[39:42] forget. So it doesn't mean across the
[39:44] street it just means linear.
[39:46] >> Yes that is correct.
[39:47] >> So you could have one across the street
[39:49] but you just would that would be okay.
[39:51] >> We can't but we can't based on the
[39:54] settlement agreement.
[39:55] >> Right. But but the thousand applies to
[39:57] on the same side.
[39:58] >> 3,000 applies. Yes.
[39:59] >> I'm sorry. Got it.
[40:00] >> Correct.
[40:02] >> Okay. So the permit was previously
[40:04] issued and it was uh renewed on March
[40:07] 2026 and obvious we they didn't send out
[40:11] the updated permit list yet. So we don't
[40:13] have a physical copy of it but we have
[40:15] confirmed its renewal.
[40:16] >> Correct. The permit has been renewed and
[40:18] paid for annually. This is done usually
[40:20] around March and that permit is good for
[40:22] one year. We renew these every year and
[40:24] we are just awaiting the updated permit
[40:26] list from the NJ DOT but it is current
[40:28] and it is active.
[40:29] >> Okay. So should the board approve this
[40:31] and obviously before any construction
[40:33] we'd have to provide a copy of that
[40:34] permit.
[40:35] >> Absolutely.
[40:36] >> Okay.
[40:40] So, as it relates to the operations of
[40:44] the um digital sign,
[40:48] obviously what are some of the benefits
[40:51] to have a digital sign as opposed to a
[40:53] static billboard, which and when we use
[40:55] the term static, I know the board
[40:57] members who are with me for the last
[40:58] four hearings know exactly what I mean.
[41:00] For any of the new board members, static
[41:03] means uh one that is uh in place.
[41:06] >> Correct. A static is a vinyl, printed
[41:08] vinyl that is stretched over the
[41:10] structure itself and has to be changed
[41:12] every time the ad needs to be changed.
[41:14] >> Okay. And what's the benefit of having a
[41:16] digital LED sign?
[41:18] >> So a digital LED sign, it's easier for
[41:21] the workers of Outfront to change.
[41:23] There's less maintenance. There's less
[41:25] going to the actual site to change the
[41:27] advertising copy.
[41:28] >> So when you say it's easier, let's go
[41:29] into a little more detail on this. So
[41:32] other than maintenance, which is only
[41:33] four times a year, correct? The messages
[41:35] are all done by computer offsite. So in
[41:39] order to change the billboard message,
[41:41] we don't need to bring in trucks and
[41:43] ladders and and and work people who
[41:45] might be in the way of operations of the
[41:48] roadway and or the site, but it actually
[41:51] can all be done remotely.
[41:53] >> It's all done remotely via a secure
[41:55] internet connection to the billboard.
[41:57] >> Okay. And I had alluded to the fact that
[42:01] the DOT doesn't allow um moving images
[42:05] or images that wave in and out. So how
[42:07] does that work?
[42:08] >> Correct. So there's no motion, animation
[42:10] or video allowed by the NJT DOT
[42:13] regulations. The images, the
[42:16] advertisements are changed
[42:17] instantaneously
[42:19] from one to the other. There's no
[42:20] waving. It's not like a screen saver.
[42:22] There's no in between. It just goes one
[42:25] to the next instantaneous. And that's
[42:27] been determined by the DOT to be the the safety mechanism with regard to
[42:32] digital billboards.
[42:32] >> Correct. And we would not be able to
[42:34] operate any billboards if we used any
[42:36] motion, animation, or video.
[42:38] >> Okay. Now, and I say this more for the
[42:41] board's benefit than for your benefit.
[42:43] So, I I'd ask that questions with regard
[42:46] to what we're going to talk about next
[42:47] be deferred in any technical nature to
[42:50] Dan because we're not going to go into
[42:51] the technical nature. I just want to
[42:53] give it offer to you from out front and
[42:56] how they operate what these things are.
[42:58] So, um, some of the things that Dan is
[43:01] going to talk about is the brightness of
[43:03] the billboard in in foot candles on the
[43:06] ground as well as luminance or knits at
[43:10] the billboard, how bright it is. So, in
[43:13] the first instance, the brightness of
[43:16] this billboard in either way is not
[43:18] constant throughout the day. Is that
[43:20] correct?
[43:20] >> That's correct. It's variable. There is
[43:22] a photo sensor, a photo cell on the top
[43:25] of the billboard and in the screens that
[43:26] adjusts to the ambient light. So, for
[43:29] instance, at night time it dims down.
[43:31] You don't want it too bright. It sounds
[43:32] counterintuitive, but you don't want it
[43:34] too bright because you want to be able
[43:35] to read the message and not get blinded.
[43:37] During the day, it goes to max capacity
[43:39] because it has to compete with the
[43:40] ambient light of the sun.
[43:42] >> Okay. And and then throughout throughout
[43:45] the day, if it's raining, if it's
[43:46] cloudy, if the sun comes out, if it's
[43:48] dusk, it adjusts as we go.
[43:50] >> Correct. that adjust to the weather
[43:51] conditions and the ambient light.
[43:52] >> And it's not just that we don't want it
[43:54] to be blinding. We want to try and
[43:55] achieve as little impact as possible and
[43:58] really just focus on the um traveling
[44:01] public.
[44:02] >> Exactly. That is correct.
[44:03] >> Okay. And uh one of the things that was
[44:06] stipulated to in the settlement
[44:08] agreement that I want to offer through
[44:11] uh Andrew now is that uh the billboard
[44:14] will be turned off daily from midnight
[44:16] to 5:00 a.m. Is that correct?
[44:18] >> Correct. midnight to 5:00 a.m. the
[44:19] billboard will be turned off.
[44:21] >> Okay. And this will be important as we
[44:24] go through and talk about dark sky
[44:26] compliance through uh DAN, but the sign
[44:29] is monitored 24/7 by a camera uh
[44:33] installed on both sides of the faces of
[44:35] the screen. So if anything should go
[44:38] wrong, it can be addressed.
[44:41] >> Correct. It could be remotely turned
[44:42] off. If there's any issue with it, if
[44:44] there's a tampering, it goes off
[44:45] immediately. There's a critical failafe
[44:48] function that has to be put on it per
[44:50] the DOT where if there's any
[44:52] interference, anyone tries to come up to
[44:54] the billboard and mess with it, it'll
[44:56] automatically turn off and the screen
[44:57] will go black.
[44:58] >> Okay. And
[45:01] what are some of the benefits of
[45:03] digital?
[45:04] >> So, some of the benefits of digital are
[45:06] the flexibility for timely and relevant
[45:09] messaging based on the time of the day,
[45:11] the weather conditions, and any other
[45:12] factors in the surrounding areas. For
[45:15] outfront, it's the ability to change the
[45:17] sign remotely via the secure internet
[45:19] connection instead of having to go visit
[45:21] that site all the time to change out the
[45:23] advertisement.
[45:24] >> So, for example, if a local restaurant
[45:27] wanted to advertise and they wanted to
[45:30] change their daily specials from lunch
[45:31] and dinner on a daily basis, that could
[45:34] easily be done.
[45:35] >> Correct. That's a great example. For
[45:36] example, a restaurant can put out a
[45:38] breakfast advertisement in the morning,
[45:40] a lunch advertisement in the afternoon,
[45:42] and a dinner special at night. And this
[45:44] is all done remotely. Whereas a static,
[45:47] you would not be able to do this. It
[45:48] would have to be changed at the exact
[45:50] site.
[45:50] >> Or a car wash could say, "We're closed
[45:53] due to the weather."
[45:54] >> Exactly. Connect to the thunderstorms or
[45:56] something. Correct.
[45:56] >> Okay. And we're going to get into
[45:58] greater detail what you're offering by
[46:00] way of emergency as well as
[46:02] non-emergency public. But there is a
[46:04] public benefit uh because you allow
[46:08] emergency and public service advertising
[46:10] at no cost.
[46:11] >> Yes, that is correct.
[46:13] Okay. And the engineer will talk about
[46:16] it in a little more detail, but
[46:20] aside from the narrow view, which we'll
[46:22] talk about in a moment, um the photo
[46:24] cells or the the cells from the light
[46:26] are directed downward and shielded. So,
[46:30] it's not as if they're shining up or out
[46:32] to the sides. Is that correct?
[46:34] >> Yes, that's correct. There are louvers
[46:36] on the panels themselves, which our
[46:37] engineer Dan will attest to and testify
[46:39] to, that block the light from going up.
[46:41] It's directed to the roadway.
[46:43] >> And that was the word I was looking for.
[46:45] Lofer. That wasn't that
[46:46] >> I got one. I've got a question. Is there
[46:48] any data collection?
[46:50] >> We we we're going to go there.
[46:52] >> You're going to go there.
[46:53] >> So, Ke Kevin was kind enough to share
[46:55] some potential concerns and we're going
[46:57] to talk all about it. The short answer
[46:59] is no,
[47:00] >> but I want to put it in in a little more
[47:02] detail than that because I think it's an
[47:03] important issue.
[47:04] >> Okay. So um
[47:08] >> could I ask about the um conditions on
[47:11] which you can change the sign?
[47:14] >> Sure.
[47:14] >> Yeah. So you had listed some you said
[47:15] time of day about the restaurant
[47:17] specials the weather. Um what about
[47:19] audience if are you able to change it
[47:22] based on nearby audience or passing
[47:24] vehicles?
[47:25] >> So that's all going to be part of what
[47:27] we're going to talk about the tracking
[47:28] and whether or not that gathered data is
[47:30] going to be gathered best. So, if you if
[47:32] you bear with me to finish going through
[47:34] his affirmative, I promise we're going
[47:35] to address all of that.
[47:39] But this witness, of course. Yeah. No,
[47:42] not the next one. This one for sure
[47:43] because he's out front. He's the one who
[47:45] knows exactly what they do and what they
[47:46] don't do. So, we're going to go through
[47:49] that. Um, let's talk about protocol A,
[47:53] protocol B. What did we what are we
[47:56] offering to donate to the town as part
[48:00] of any approval here that we couldn't do
[48:02] with a static billboard?
[48:04] >> So, protocol A is more for the emergency
[48:06] messaging. These are emergencies, not
[48:08] really traffic issues. This is something
[48:10] that can come from the local, federal,
[48:12] or state level. Um, protocol B is more
[48:15] for the town itself. And for the town,
[48:17] we are promising one full spot on the
[48:21] digital billboard, which is every 8
[48:23] seconds
[48:25] every 64 second minute.
[48:26] >> So an 8-second spot every 64 seconds,
[48:30] which equates to 12 1.5%
[48:32] >> 12% or
[48:33] >> I'm sorry, 8 second spot every
[48:36] >> 64
[48:36] >> every 64 seconds.
[48:38] >> Seconds, which equals equates to
[48:40] >> 12%
[48:41] >> right in the settlement
[48:42] >> and 180 minutes per 24 hours. Well, not
[48:45] for 24 hours for the number of hours
[48:47] that we that we're open. Correct. That
[48:49] we're on because we're not on 24 hours.
[48:52] >> Um, however, for the emergency
[48:55] perspective, you could,
[48:58] God forbid, there was a mass emergency,
[49:00] the burrow needed to get information out
[49:01] at 3:00 in the morning, you could have
[49:03] it turned on at that hour.
[49:05] >> Yes. Correct.
[49:05] >> Okay. Um, and
[49:10] >> and Jennifer, the other emergency, I'm
[49:12] assuming I know last time we talked
[49:13] about silver alerts, Amber Alerts, those
[49:16] are the types of things,
[49:17] >> correct? Yes, that's what a protocol A
[49:19] is for. Yes. So, homeland security
[49:21] issues, FBI alerts, missing persons,
[49:23] Amber alerts, silver alerts,
[49:26] >> and um yes,
[49:29] >> in in the case of like, you know, some
[49:31] awful god-awful emergency, can
[49:35] that supersede the 1/8 of the time? So,
[49:38] something
[49:39] >> it's in addition to.
[49:40] >> Okay.
[49:41] >> The emergency is in addition to
[49:43] >> there's another
[49:44] >> Yeah. So,
[49:44] >> 911. No. So the 1/8 or the one the 12
[49:48] and.5%
[49:50] is solely automatic every cycle within a
[49:54] 24-hour period. The emergency is on top
[49:57] of that and it would supersede and
[49:59] replace any advertising.
[50:01] >> Correct. It would
[50:03] >> Okay. Um
[50:05] >> I have one I have sorry right here. I
[50:06] have one more question about that on the
[50:08] um the decision-making authority for um
[50:14] the content the 12.5% as well as the
[50:17] emergency is that exclusively Redbank
[50:19] Burrow or would that ever be county of
[50:22] Mammoth State of New Jersey etc.
[50:24] >> The 12% is Redbank Burrow and only
[50:27] Redbank Burrow. You're having ClamFest,
[50:31] >> that's what goes there. You're doing
[50:32] something on the riverfront, that's what
[50:33] goes there. you're having a townwide
[50:37] celebration. That's what goes there. As
[50:39] it relates to the emergency, I believe
[50:42] any of the emergency personnel such as
[50:46] state police, the county sheriff's
[50:48] office,
[50:49] >> any any municipal or governing body or
[50:54] OEM, it would have to be some official.
[50:57] Exactly. And in those cases, that would
[50:59] go they would go directly to outfront.
[51:01] They wouldn't necessarily need to go
[51:02] through Red Bank to then contact
[51:04] >> I think they would. So, it's my
[51:06] understanding, correct me if I'm wrong,
[51:07] that there would be a police contact or
[51:09] a burrow contact with regard to
[51:11] emergency messaging and if you don't
[51:13] have a a personal contact with the state
[51:16] police or the like, they would go
[51:18] through the Redbank Police Department.
[51:20] >> Correct. There would be a code assigned
[51:21] to the designate, usually it is the
[51:23] chief of police. They call the 247
[51:25] hotline. They provide that code. They
[51:28] tell us what the emergency is. We get
[51:30] that message up immediately and it
[51:32] supersedes all the advertising and it
[51:34] runs for one hour.
[51:35] >> Great.
[51:36] >> And if they call back in the next hour
[51:37] and it's still an emergency, then it
[51:39] runs for another hour.
[51:40] >> Great. Thank you.
[51:42] >> Uh, now let's talk about the
[51:43] non-emergency. So, I think we gave a
[51:45] little bit of it away already, but what
[51:48] kinds of messages are for the
[51:49] non-emergency and how do those get used?
[51:53] So similar to the protocol A there will
[51:56] be a town designate could be someone
[51:58] from the recck department it could be um
[52:00] the business administrator we would
[52:04] provide again 12 and a half% of the
[52:06] billboard for these town it could be
[52:08] events for the town it could be the
[52:09] fourth of July celebration it could be
[52:11] October Fest that's coming up
[52:13] >> could just be welcome to Redbank
[52:15] >> exactly anything for a public message
[52:16] that's not an emergency uh you reach out
[52:19] to us via the hotline and an email uh
[52:22] you let us know what you'd like to put
[52:23] up. If you prefer to use your own image,
[52:27] we'll put that up. If you need us to
[52:29] design an image for you, we will work
[52:31] with you free of charge to design that
[52:33] image and that message will go up on the
[52:36] billboard.
[52:36] >> So essentially, there'd be a municipal
[52:38] design who'll be the main contact and
[52:40] then anyone in the town that wants to
[52:42] have a public message put up who do
[52:44] that. Now, in addition to the town, you
[52:46] also often you also offer non-forprofit
[52:51] advertising at no cost as well.
[52:53] >> That is correct.
[52:54] >> Okay. And let me move into what was
[52:56] moved in as A17.
[52:58] >> And just one point though, the for the
[53:00] protocol B, the ads from the town or the
[53:03] images, messages uh need to be
[53:05] politically neutral and they cannot be
[53:07] monetized in any way or bartered.
[53:10] So, we had handed out the public benefit
[53:12] and I'd asked the board to just take a
[53:14] quick look at what we moved in as A17
[53:17] and I'm just going to walk you through
[53:19] it if you don't mind. So, the first is
[53:20] the emergency messaging and that gives a
[53:23] sample of the type of messages. So, the
[53:25] first one is an FBI announcement.
[53:27] >> Correct.
[53:29] >> The second one is an Amber Alert
[53:32] and then they're public service
[53:33] announcements where for example that's a
[53:35] nonforprofit, the Valerie fund. So, you
[53:38] donate that. Correct. That's all
[53:39] donated. Correct. As well as Makea-Wish
[53:41] for New Jersey.
[53:43] >> The next page we have um Community Food
[53:46] Bank of New Jersey and the Boys and
[53:49] Girls Club of New Jersey as well. These
[53:50] are all partners with Alfront. Uh that
[53:52] time is donated to. This is another one,
[53:55] the New Jersey Move Over Slow Down Law.
[53:59] And
[53:59] >> and then on page starting on page 12,
[54:02] you show the types of um the types of of
[54:06] billboard ads that a municipality might
[54:08] post.
[54:09] >> Correct. So this is relating to protocol
[54:11] B that we just spoke about messages for
[54:12] the townships and burrows themselves. So
[54:14] for this one, this is Stafford using it
[54:17] uh for their help its people. Uh the
[54:19] next page is Dville. Uh they're a big
[54:21] user of the billboard. They like to
[54:23] promote their downtown and the
[54:25] revitalization of it. So, for example,
[54:27] River Center could do a similar type um
[54:31] advertising package through the burrow
[54:33] to publicize any events that might be
[54:35] happening down at the riverfront.
[54:37] >> Absolutely.
[54:39] >> Okay.
[54:40] >> And the last one is another one that the
[54:42] township of ocean uses for their pool
[54:44] and tennis club uh looking to sign up
[54:46] today. So, this is just some of the
[54:48] messaging that we do for local townships
[54:49] around the areas and throughout New
[54:51] Jersey. And as we said, we're offering
[54:53] Redbank, Burough Red Bank, uh, a full
[54:56] dedicated spot on the billboard for
[54:58] these.
[54:58] >> Okay. I I want to take a minute and I
[55:00] apologize, Mr. Gil. I'm going to do the
[55:02] other portion about the tracking last
[55:04] because I feel like there's going to be
[55:05] the most amount of questions for that.
[55:06] So, um, I just want to go through some
[55:10] of the, um, conditions that we had
[55:12] promised Kevin we would stipulate to on
[55:14] the record. So,
[55:17] one of the things we didn't talk about
[55:19] yet and that is on the exhibit marked in
[55:23] as A1,
[55:25] in addition to uh removing the billboard
[55:29] at 187 Riverside and forever giving up
[55:33] any rights to a billboard in that
[55:35] location. We have also agreed to uh get
[55:39] rid of eight other billboard faces and
[55:42] not in the Redbank area. Kevin, I didn't
[55:44] correct you then, but I'll say it now.
[55:45] It's not in the Redbank area. It's in
[55:46] Redbank. Not in Shrewsbury, not in Titan
[55:50] Falls, not in Middletown, right in
[55:51] Redbank. So, there's eight different
[55:54] billboards that are going to be removed,
[55:56] which Dan will go into.
[55:58] >> But I want to make sure. So, I'm going
[55:59] to ask you some questions, and I just
[56:00] like you to answer them.
[56:01] >> Sure.
[56:02] >> Does Outfront have the full and
[56:04] unfettered lease rights and legal
[56:06] authority to remove these billboards and
[56:08] their support structures and abandon
[56:10] their use?
[56:10] >> Yes.
[56:12] Does outfront need affirmative approval
[56:14] from the landlords to remove these
[56:16] billboards?
[56:16] >> No.
[56:17] >> Because you actually own the billboard
[56:18] structure. Is that correct?
[56:19] >> Correct.
[56:20] >> Okay. And do you have lease rights to
[56:22] these billboards and they cannot and
[56:25] will not be assigned to any other
[56:26] individual or entity. They will be
[56:28] extinguished.
[56:29] >> Yes, that is correct.
[56:30] >> Okay. And for a period of 7 years from
[56:34] the trigger date in the um in the
[56:36] settlement which I'll go into in a
[56:37] moment uh outfront agrees that for 7
[56:41] years there will be a moratorum on
[56:43] conversion of any static billboards to
[56:45] digital.
[56:46] >> Correct.
[56:46] >> Okay. So recognizing that if they ever
[56:49] wanted to convert a static to digital,
[56:52] they'd have to come back to the board
[56:53] for the use variance and go through the
[56:55] process, but they're committing they
[56:57] won't even consider filing an
[56:58] application for a minimum of seven
[57:00] years.
[57:03] >> Um
[57:04] >> I have a question about that one.
[57:06] >> Yeah.
[57:06] >> Um we have an ordinance that says
[57:09] existing billboards may not be converted
[57:11] to a different type of billboard or
[57:12] sign. And so that that behavior that
[57:15] converting is already prohibited by a
[57:18] correct we have. And so could you speak
[57:20] to what if if it's already prohibited
[57:22] then what is the benefit of the
[57:23] seven-year
[57:24] >> the benefit of is it because any
[57:25] applicant can file a use variance
[57:27] application to seek approval for a
[57:29] prohibited use. So what we're offering
[57:32] and what was asked by Kevin was that we
[57:34] commit that we will not seek to do that
[57:37] via application to the zoning board for
[57:39] use variance.
[57:41] >> Okay.
[57:46] I have a quick question on that as well.
[57:47] Um that pertains to all uh all land
[57:52] within Redbank and there's no exclusion
[57:54] for say like land owned by NJ Transit or
[57:57] this is a county road so it's not
[57:59] technically Red Bank.
[58:00] >> That's any billboard we have. We will
[58:02] not and cannot make an application to
[58:04] convert it to digital.
[58:06] >> Got it.
[58:06] >> And how many billboards are currently
[58:07] does Alfront have in Redbank?
[58:09] Approximately before we remove him about
[58:12] 20 or 21 I think from the list correct
[58:16] >> about 20 or 21
[58:17] >> but that's faces
[58:18] >> faces correct
[58:26] no it's I said eight plus Riverside
[58:29] which makes it nine
[58:32] I was distinguishing between them
[58:33] because and again it the the seven-year
[58:37] moratorum just so the board understands
[58:38] that came out request of the board with
[58:41] regard to that that was part of the
[58:42] negotiated settlement as I understand
[58:44] it. Um
[58:47] so
[58:49] >> of those nine faces that would be
[58:51] removed, how many um do you already have
[58:54] a permit for the conversion to digital?
[58:56] We know the the Riverside one, right?
[58:58] Which which other ones?
[59:00] >> Uh I believe we have permits on two of
[59:02] those. Uh the Oakland Street and the
[59:05] Riverside Avenue one.
[59:09] Okay. So, now let's talk about tracking
[59:12] using gathered information. So, Kevin
[59:14] was kind enough to share some questions
[59:16] for me. So, I'm going to go through them
[59:18] with you.
[59:18] >> Okay.
[59:19] >> Um, so will our digital billboard have
[59:22] any type of device installed for data
[59:25] collection?
[59:25] >> No. The billboard is just the structure
[59:27] itself. There is no type of hardware,
[59:30] sensor, device, anything on the
[59:31] billboard.
[59:32] >> So, no sensor, no beacon, no receiver,
[59:34] no data collection or hardware of any
[59:36] kind. Absolutely not.
[59:38] >> Will there be anything on the billboard
[59:40] that will be able to detect, receive, or
[59:42] record anything from a passing phone,
[59:45] vehicle, or person?
[59:46] >> Absolutely not. Hold on. Just say it
[59:48] again. uh detect, receive, record
[59:52] uh information
[59:54] >> mobile device or personal data from any
[59:57] passer by or and and I think you'd
[1:00:00] indicated we we have about 3,500
[1:00:02] billboards throughout and of them 117
[1:00:05] static and digital. Do any of your
[1:00:08] billboards have this technology?
[1:00:10] >> No.
[1:00:11] >> And as you said, the structure is
[1:00:13] display only, no different than a sign
[1:00:16] anywhere else in the burrow.
[1:00:17] >> Absolutely. That is correct.
[1:00:19] >> Okay. So,
[1:00:21] can you tell me about Smart Scout and
[1:00:23] whether or not we'll be enrolled in
[1:00:25] that?
[1:00:25] >> So, from my understanding, Smart Scout
[1:00:28] is a data management platform for our
[1:00:30] out ofome assets, our billboards that is
[1:00:32] currently being phased out.
[1:00:35] Correct. Smart Scout is an outfront data
[1:00:38] management platform system for our out
[1:00:40] ofome assets, which are our billboards,
[1:00:43] and it's currently being phased out. on
[1:00:46] Smart Media was a brand designation that
[1:00:48] was Alfront's network of displays,
[1:00:51] digital displays.
[1:00:52] >> So, this wasn't collecting information.
[1:00:54] This was
[1:00:56] >> it was just
[1:00:58] types of sales tools that our company
[1:01:00] uses. It's platforms. There's nothing
[1:01:02] from the billboard that's collecting
[1:01:04] information.
[1:01:04] >> Nothing to enroll in or anything like
[1:01:06] that.
[1:01:06] >> Correct. There's nothing.
[1:01:08] >> So, now I want to talk to you think
[1:01:09] about what's at the heart of Mr. Gil's
[1:01:11] question. Um, are you familiar with the
[1:01:14] term geo fencing?
[1:01:18] » Yes, I am familiar.
[1:01:20] >> Okay. And in simplest terms, are there
[1:01:23] thirdparty analytic services that
[1:01:26] collect the type of information that Mr.
[1:01:28] Mass and and Mr. uh Gild Day were asking
[1:01:30] us about?
[1:01:31] >> Yes.
[1:01:32] >> Okay. We're not a part of that in any
[1:01:34] way, shape, or form. That's all being
[1:01:36] collected today.
[1:01:37] >> That is correct.
[1:01:38] >> Okay. And some of the ways that that is
[1:01:40] used, and I'm going to give you some
[1:01:42] examples. If I have a um Starbucks
[1:01:46] account and I am near a Starbucks,
[1:01:52] if Starbucks is enrolled with any of
[1:01:54] these third party uh platforms, they
[1:01:57] might know that my cell phone is near a
[1:01:59] Starbucks and Neptune and might give me
[1:02:02] a targeted ad to say, "Hey, come here's
[1:02:04] 20% off."
[1:02:05] >> Yes, that is correct. If there is a
[1:02:08] bakery in Redbank, just a regular old
[1:02:10] building, and the bakery sees that I'm a
[1:02:14] regular customer there, based on the
[1:02:16] fact that I join their Facebook page,
[1:02:18] and they know that I'm in the area
[1:02:20] because my cell phone is there and this
[1:02:22] third party tracks these things, they
[1:02:25] could use that information to send me a
[1:02:27] text and say, "Hey, come in and we're
[1:02:28] having a special."
[1:02:29] >> Yes, that is correct. And that is
[1:02:31] something that businesses are doing
[1:02:32] throughout the United States
[1:02:35] through third-party providers,
[1:02:38] >> correct?
[1:02:38] >> And
[1:02:40] for example, you uh order something on
[1:02:43] Amazon and you get a text that says your
[1:02:48] Amazon delivery is three stops away. Is
[1:02:51] that because they track every single
[1:02:54] driver because they potentially set up a
[1:02:55] geoence to know where it is in relation
[1:02:57] to my delivery? I'd say they probably
[1:02:59] set up a geoence,
[1:03:00] >> right? So
[1:03:04] there is there are different analytic
[1:03:06] services that any business or any
[1:03:08] individual can subscribe to and then use
[1:03:10] that for targeting advertising.
[1:03:12] >> Correct.
[1:03:12] >> And certainly because any other business
[1:03:15] does in the competitive commercial
[1:03:17] world, you would participate in that as
[1:03:20] well in order to have targeted
[1:03:23] advertising.
[1:03:24] >> Correct.
[1:03:24] >> Okay. So to how would you do that? I I
[1:03:27] have some questions. I mean
[1:03:29] >> I have some questions. Go ahead. So I
[1:03:31] think the first thing is you said smart
[1:03:32] scout is being phased out.
[1:03:34] >> Yes, that's
[1:03:34] >> okay. So it would be fair for us to
[1:03:36] apply a condition that says that you
[1:03:38] would not use any like there would be
[1:03:40] >> yes
[1:03:41] >> future in the future we would not allow
[1:03:43] for any type of data collection from any
[1:03:46] type of hardware or sensor or video with
[1:03:49] on the billboard. That would be
[1:03:50] something you
[1:03:51] >> happy to accept that um I want to
[1:03:53] understand what you're talking about
[1:03:54] regarding geo fencing. So you said
[1:03:57] third-party platforms. Are you talking
[1:03:59] about thirdparty data? I don't or are
[1:04:01] you talking about platforms that um
[1:04:04] external companies have and hosts in the
[1:04:06] cloud that you subscribe to? Like I'd
[1:04:08] love to understand the disc.
[1:04:09] >> Sure. So there's a company called Placer
[1:04:12] AI. Uh they're an analytic service that
[1:04:14] relies on aggregated and consented
[1:04:16] mobile location data. So from my
[1:04:19] understanding, if you have a weather app
[1:04:21] on your phone with a GPS, you've
[1:04:23] consented to your location. Now all this
[1:04:26] is anonymous and this is just my
[1:04:28] understanding. I'm not
[1:04:29] >> because we don't do this. We just are
[1:04:31] able to gather information from these
[1:04:33] companies.
[1:04:34] >> I understand. But you said that geo
[1:04:35] fencing you understand is like a
[1:04:36] standard business practice and outfront
[1:04:38] would engage in geofencing. I'm really
[1:04:40] interested in how you can apply a
[1:04:42] geoence if you're not collecting network
[1:04:44] data on where an asset is. And by asset
[1:04:46] I mean your mobile device. So the way
[1:04:48] geo fencing works is you have there's network data that's on an ass on
[1:04:53] a device on hardware and if you're going
[1:04:56] to apply a geoence you need to be able
[1:04:59] to know what data is passing through the
[1:05:01] perimeter of the geoence. So I guess I'm just curious about how you would
[1:05:06] have geo fencing but not um be
[1:05:09] collecting data like what would be the
[1:05:10] purpose of geoencing?
[1:05:12] >> And this is just my understanding
[1:05:13] because we don't we don't do it. So it's
[1:05:15] my understanding that for example with
[1:05:17] the AI analytics y
[1:05:20] >> you would say
[1:05:22] we'd be interested in you know if if
[1:05:26] someone who
[1:05:28] likes coffee is within a mile of our
[1:05:31] billboard and so they would
[1:05:35] tell us when someone who likes coffee is
[1:05:37] within a mile of our billboard.
[1:05:38] >> But you all don't engage in that
[1:05:39] practice. Absolutely. And you'd be very
[1:05:41] comfortable putting in a condition that
[1:05:42] says but you would not ever use any
[1:05:44] first party or third party data to
[1:05:45] personalize advertising.
[1:05:46] >> No, no, no. The what I had indicated was
[1:05:49] just like any other business has the
[1:05:52] ability to use third party data to
[1:05:54] target advertising.
[1:05:57] >> But how I I guess I'm confused about h
[1:06:01] how could you personalize it if you're
[1:06:04] not collecting data on who's in your
[1:06:07] geoence? So you have third party data on
[1:06:09] me. I like Starbucks. So I'm driving by
[1:06:12] and you you flash up a Starbucks ad. How
[1:06:15] do you know to put a Starbucks ad up if
[1:06:17] you're not collecting data on the fact
[1:06:19] that I'm within the geo?
[1:06:20] >> So it's not you personally. So I think
[1:06:22] what what the issue is is let's say for
[1:06:24] example
[1:06:26] we ask place or AI
[1:06:29] how many people drive by that like
[1:06:31] coffee and they say none.
[1:06:35] >> Okay. So, Outfront Media does use third
[1:06:38] party data to personalize.
[1:06:39] >> Correct. Which is what I indicated from
[1:06:42] the beginning, just like every other
[1:06:44] business in modern times does.
[1:06:46] >> Yeah.
[1:06:46] >> So, just like Starbucks, when they know
[1:06:50] that I'm within a mile of a Starbucks,
[1:06:52] lo and behold, I'll get a popup ad on
[1:06:54] Facebook. But it's not just like that,
[1:06:56] though, because Starbucks
[1:06:57] >> to me,
[1:06:58] >> right? But Starbucks, the way Starbucks
[1:07:00] does that is they're reacting to the
[1:07:01] fact that they know that you personally
[1:07:04] are within. So they're using first party
[1:07:07] data which is distinct from third party
[1:07:10] data. So it's not So that Starbucks
[1:07:12] example is not a good example.
[1:07:14] >> Well then I apologize.
[1:07:15] >> Oh no it's okay. I just want to make
[1:07:16] sure I understand.
[1:07:16] >> I have limited knowledge on this. Y
[1:07:19] >> and this issue was only shared with us
[1:07:21] this question three days ago. So we did
[1:07:24] as much as we could to get you the
[1:07:25] answer. But no we're not using first.
[1:07:28] We're not sending things to your phone.
[1:07:29] >> You're not collecting data. Yeah. No
[1:07:33] we're not sending to your phone. None of
[1:07:34] that.
[1:07:35] >> Okay.
[1:07:35] >> If we find from this third party data
[1:07:37] that a lot of a a lot of uh
[1:07:42] >> soccer moms drive by our
[1:07:44] >> promote the soccer to do a soccer thing.
[1:07:46] >> Yeah. Sure.
[1:07:47] >> No first party, nothing targeted to an
[1:07:49] individual. Okay. It's more gathering
[1:07:51] the data. So, for example, if an
[1:07:53] advertiser for a pizza place comes in,
[1:07:56] we can say, "Yeah, we have people that
[1:07:58] like to go out to eat a lot."
[1:07:59] >> You know, that kind of thing. Nothing
[1:08:02] individual, nothing first party targeted
[1:08:04] that we can commit to 150%. We don't do
[1:08:08] it now. We have no intention of ever
[1:08:09] doing it because we don't have the
[1:08:11] ability to collect that information.
[1:08:13] >> Okay.
[1:08:13] >> Correct. It's just a display. It's just
[1:08:15] a structure. There's no hardware or
[1:08:17] devices on it whatsoever.
[1:08:19] >> And perhaps when this hearing is over,
[1:08:20] personally, you can
[1:08:22] >> share some of your insight a little more
[1:08:23] with me because I don't understand it to
[1:08:25] the level that you do. So, thank you.
[1:08:27] Yeah, one one maybe educational just
[1:08:29] point for the group on Placer AI. Just
[1:08:31] reading from a website, Placer AI is a
[1:08:33] cutting edge online service that uses
[1:08:35] anonymously sourced mobile location data
[1:08:38] to calculate the number of active cell
[1:08:39] phones in any locality during a
[1:08:41] specified time. That is from the
[1:08:43] Riverenter announcement announcing that
[1:08:46] River Center is using Placer AI to track
[1:08:48] footfall in Redbank. So Placer AI is
[1:08:52] being used already by the burrow just to
[1:08:54] make sure everybody understands. No. And
[1:08:56] I appreciate that.
[1:08:57] >> Yeah. I think one of the
[1:08:58] >> And just Mr. Haritz, just you you took
[1:09:00] that. Oh, Mr. Fitzger, you're right.
[1:09:03] Well, I know he's not Anna. That I know.
[1:09:06] >> Um, Mr. Fitzgerald, I apologize. You
[1:09:09] took that from which website? Just so
[1:09:11] the record's clear.
[1:09:17] Okay. And Redbank River Center is part
[1:09:20] of of Redbank. So, the burrow the burrow
[1:09:22] is geo fencing.
[1:09:23] >> Yes.
[1:09:24] >> Okay. Thank you. I wish I had known that
[1:09:27] before coming in. I could have made this
[1:09:29] a lot easier on all of us.
[1:09:32] >> So I understand that um the we are doing
[1:09:35] targeted uh advertisement placement. It
[1:09:38] just happens via the third party and and
[1:09:40] it's anonymized. Right.
[1:09:41] >> Correct.
[1:09:41] >> But one of my uh concerns with the use
[1:09:45] of this site versus some of the other
[1:09:47] examples that were given is when I have
[1:09:50] um and to your point, every business is
[1:09:52] doing this, right? like I work for
[1:09:54] business, they're doing it and um it
[1:09:57] when you receive usually when you
[1:09:59] receive an ad say on your personal
[1:10:01] device, the experience is personal,
[1:10:02] right? Like I'm looking at my device, I
[1:10:04] get a targeted ad. We've all had the
[1:10:06] experience of getting a targeted ad
[1:10:07] that's like really kind of feels creepy
[1:10:09] because it's so well targeted. It works
[1:10:10] very well, right?
[1:10:12] >> Um but it's one thing when it's on my
[1:10:15] phone and it's another thing when it's
[1:10:16] on a very large site. And that's where I
[1:10:18] think the privacy concern comes from
[1:10:21] because if you're and I understand the d
[1:10:23] the targeting is anonym based on
[1:10:25] anonymized data. If I'm on the turnpike
[1:10:28] there's thousands of cars passing by the
[1:10:29] digital billboards there. You know
[1:10:31] you're one of person in a sea of
[1:10:34] targets. In a very small town when I'm
[1:10:37] at this intersection or or when I'm
[1:10:39] driving by the proposed site I may be
[1:10:42] one of five one of 20 cars. And then for
[1:10:46] a an advertisement to be targeted to me
[1:10:48] in that scenario, it feels a bit more
[1:10:51] invasive. It's like putting my browser
[1:10:53] history on a screen.
[1:10:55] >> I I don't think it's going to be
[1:10:57] targeted to you. I think it's going to
[1:10:58] be targeted to certain demographics.
[1:11:01] Whereas the Facebook ads are if I search
[1:11:04] pink sweater, every Facebook ad I get is
[1:11:07] going to be about pink sweaters going
[1:11:08] forward. As if they heard me. If I say
[1:11:10] something to my friends about a
[1:11:11] restaurant, it'll all show up there. I
[1:11:14] think if I understand it because the way
[1:11:16] that this programming works, it's not as
[1:11:17] if a um it's not as if a advertiser
[1:11:21] calls and says, "Hey, this popped up, so
[1:11:24] can you quick run an ad because Mr.
[1:11:26] Gild's driving by?" These are these are
[1:11:29] pre-established
[1:11:30] advertisements, right? It sends my
[1:11:32] profile over, right? Like it's, you
[1:11:35] know, this is a
[1:11:36] >> it's not moment. It's it it isn't done
[1:11:39] >> instantaneously. like it won't if you
[1:11:42] drive by it it's not going to put up an
[1:11:43] ad that it potentially
[1:11:45] >> today but we were asking to be grant a
[1:11:46] variance that is indefinite and
[1:11:48] technology keeps changing
[1:11:50] >> we are not so again we are not proposing
[1:11:53] any tracking technology on this
[1:11:56] billboard
[1:11:57] >> at all
[1:11:57] >> I understand
[1:11:58] >> so whatever these third party
[1:12:01] organizations are going to be regulated
[1:12:03] and I spoke at length with Kevin about
[1:12:05] this whatever state and federal laws are
[1:12:07] in place and privacy laws so again we're
[1:12:10] not targeting to individuals. We are not
[1:12:12] going to know on our billboard when
[1:12:14] you're coming by. So, let's put that ad
[1:12:17] up. What we will know is is that
[1:12:21] this number of people went by, so we
[1:12:23] think it's a great idea to advertise
[1:12:25] this.
[1:12:26] >> So, this I I think this is a plausible
[1:12:28] scenario. If
[1:12:30] you could receive information that um
[1:12:33] you know enough the audience in the area
[1:12:36] at a given time um has this skin
[1:12:39] condition so you should advertise you
[1:12:42] know this medicine to them. That would
[1:12:43] be the algorithm determining that and
[1:12:47] the audience is subject to how many
[1:12:49] people are in that geoence. And so my
[1:12:52] point is in a small town that can be a
[1:12:55] concern if it says this audience and
[1:12:57] that audience is 10 people has this
[1:13:00] characteristic.
[1:13:01] >> So I guess the the question that I have
[1:13:04] in return is if it's fully anonymous
[1:13:08] and it is not individually or first
[1:13:10] party targeted.
[1:13:12] How is that concerning? Wouldn't you
[1:13:14] want the advertising that you see to be
[1:13:16] targeted to what you're interested in or
[1:13:18] what you're looking for? I mean, isn't
[1:13:20] that the very purpose of advertising to
[1:13:22] reach a certain audience? So,
[1:13:25] this is just the way that we achieve it
[1:13:28] like any other business. You know,
[1:13:32] Kevin, may I quote you from our
[1:13:35] conversation or no, you'd prefer me not
[1:13:36] to?
[1:13:36] >> You absolutely can. I don't know what I
[1:13:38] said, but yes.
[1:13:39] But he when we discussed this and I
[1:13:41] explained to him what it is, he goes,
[1:13:42] "Well, if all businesses are able to use
[1:13:44] it, you'd be crazy not to
[1:13:47] as long as you stay within the confines
[1:13:49] of the legal parameters for this type of
[1:13:52] use. So,
[1:13:56] we're not asking you to we're asking you
[1:13:58] for a digital billboard. We're not
[1:14:00] asking you to allow us to put up
[1:14:01] tracking information of any way, shape,
[1:14:04] or form. But certainly I would think
[1:14:06] that if you were going to grant this
[1:14:08] approval, you couldn't discriminate
[1:14:09] against us when every other business in
[1:14:12] town is allowed to do it as well.
[1:14:14] >> Well, I think it's it's the use. It's
[1:14:16] the site and the use that feels
[1:14:18] different, right? Because if other
[1:14:19] businesses are sending me personalized
[1:14:21] experiences on my personal device,
[1:14:23] that's different from a public
[1:14:25] experience.
[1:14:25] >> We are not sending you personalized.
[1:14:27] >> I know that. Yeah. And I would argue
[1:14:29] that a digital billboard is not
[1:14:31] personalized based on the amount of
[1:14:33] traffic that goes back and forth on uh
[1:14:37] Newman Springs Road. So it's not
[1:14:39] personalized. It's not first party and
[1:14:45] >> I am offer kind of just to like deepen
[1:14:48] that line of questioning though. So I'm
[1:14:49] curious about what kind of categories
[1:14:50] you all use for the third party data.
[1:14:52] Obviously mobile location data which I
[1:14:54] think we've established yeah pretty much
[1:14:56] everyone does it. I'm assuming
[1:14:57] demographic segments because we
[1:14:58] mentioned soccer moms. Um device
[1:15:01] identifiers, household data, um gender,
[1:15:07] age, income, like what what do we have a
[1:15:11] sense for that?
[1:15:13] >> I I and I'm also assuming that it is
[1:15:16] specific to the location. It's not like
[1:15:18] it's specific to Redbank. So Red Bank's
[1:15:20] going to see something different from
[1:15:21] what like
[1:15:22] >> Well, every billboard and every
[1:15:23] municipality is different depending on
[1:15:25] because the at the end of the day,
[1:15:28] >> we aren't generating ads and we are not
[1:15:31] um we're not the ones making them and
[1:15:33] >> deciding you're just getting the data
[1:15:35] and then
[1:15:36] >> No, no, we're not getting the data.
[1:15:38] >> I mean, for the third party data that
[1:15:39] you all
[1:15:40] >> Well, we we gather the data and so when
[1:15:42] people come to us and want to advertise
[1:15:44] with us, we're able to say
[1:15:46] >> we have this many people go by Correct.
[1:15:49] Yeah, we're just putting the image up.
[1:15:51] We're not
[1:15:51] >> Yeah, we're putting the image up based
[1:15:53] on what the advertisers want to put
[1:15:55] there. It very well may be that every
[1:15:57] that the advertisers themselves
[1:15:59] subscribe to this.
[1:16:00] >> Yeah.
[1:16:01] >> And say, I want to put this ad up at
[1:16:03] 5:00 because it's the busiest time. But
[1:16:06] again, I don't have specific details as
[1:16:08] to this because it's really not related
[1:16:11] anything other than business practices.
[1:16:12] It's not specific to the billboard use.
[1:16:15] Well, I think that it's really relevant
[1:16:17] because there's a lot of established New
[1:16:18] Jersey case law around privacy and
[1:16:21] consent and some of the characteristics
[1:16:24] for data categories are perfectly
[1:16:26] adequate under New Jersey state law. Um,
[1:16:29] but there are other categories that are
[1:16:30] not. So, I think that for due diligence
[1:16:32] for the town of Redbank, we want to make
[1:16:33] sure that our citizens are protected
[1:16:34] around what categories constitute
[1:16:36] private. So what I can commit to is
[1:16:38] >> is that we will abide by the state law
[1:16:41] and the federal law as it relates to
[1:16:43] privacy.
[1:16:44] >> 100% would commit to that
[1:16:46] >> and and local if there are local
[1:16:48] >> of course if there was anything but 100%
[1:16:51] we would commit to it.
[1:16:52] >> Okay. Great.
[1:16:53] >> And we would have to because again it
[1:16:55] would affect our DOT permitting. It
[1:16:56] didn't.
[1:16:57] >> Yep. Okay.
[1:17:00] So essentially what happens with these
[1:17:02] billboards is you have a mix of ads that
[1:17:05] you know there's a lot of auto people on
[1:17:07] that street and so probably people doing
[1:17:09] auto ads for the Volvo whatever Nissan
[1:17:12] but also within it you would also might
[1:17:14] have customized ads where you'd be
[1:17:18] looking for advertisers that are hitting
[1:17:19] certain demographics. So you'd have a
[1:17:21] mix of of ads. Some would be specific
[1:17:24] businesses because they're there. Some
[1:17:26] would be trying to reach the demographic
[1:17:28] that's driving by. So again it's it's not as targeted as it's being
[1:17:33] described for example and and without
[1:17:36] admittedly
[1:17:37] >> without understanding the depth in which
[1:17:39] this is done one will commit to it but
[1:17:42] it's not instantaneous. So for example
[1:17:44] if if an advertiser comes and says I'm
[1:17:47] interested in advertising with you then
[1:17:49] you could say well here's this data that
[1:17:51] was collected by someone else for you to
[1:17:54] analyze and decide if you want to
[1:17:55] advertise with us or not. So it again
[1:17:59] I agree with Mr. Gilde. It'll be
[1:18:01] everchanging. The laws will be ever
[1:18:03] changing. But what we can commit to is
[1:18:05] one we will abide by any of the
[1:18:07] regulations as it relates to that and
[1:18:09] privacy. And we will commit that we will
[1:18:12] do no such gathering of any information
[1:18:15] certainly not on our billboard
[1:18:17] structure.
[1:18:20] » To to maybe put it a different way or or
[1:18:23] get a little different perspective on
[1:18:26] the information. I think we're hoping to
[1:18:27] understand. So for a normal paid
[1:18:29] advertiser, so a lot of the billboards
[1:18:31] around town right now, like a doctor's
[1:18:32] office or a realtor who is here, so
[1:18:34] assume a realtor takes out an ad for
[1:18:37] 12.5% of the time on this digital
[1:18:40] billboard. What are some of the data and
[1:18:42] insights they will receive about the
[1:18:44] performance of their advertising
[1:18:46] campaign at the end of that campaign,
[1:18:48] say for a month it runs? Is it number of
[1:18:50] impressions? Is it
[1:18:52] >> my understanding that it's number of
[1:18:54] impressions? I'm not involved in the
[1:18:56] sales department. Uh I'm just in the
[1:18:57] real estate department. So, but I
[1:18:59] believe correct that it's impressions.
[1:19:02] That's what they're looking for.
[1:19:03] >> You paid us, you know, whatever $3,000.
[1:19:05] It ran for a month and 50,000 people saw
[1:19:08] it. We know that 50,000 number because
[1:19:12] that's one time we had someone track how
[1:19:16] many cars go by on a daily basis. And we
[1:19:17] did that times 30. is that 50,000
[1:19:20] generated by Placer AI and these
[1:19:22] anonymized
[1:19:23] um data points coming in and out and
[1:19:26] that changes in real time. I think maybe
[1:19:27] we just want to understand what level of
[1:19:30] data an advertiser might receive and
[1:19:32] therefore could optimize off of and it's
[1:19:34] okay if we don't have more detailed
[1:19:36] information right now, but I think
[1:19:37] that's just what maybe the group is
[1:19:38] looking to understand more.
[1:19:41] >> Okay.
[1:19:42] >> Yeah. I don't I don't like I'm I'm not
[1:19:43] involved in the sales and
[1:19:45] >> so at minimum number of impressions how
[1:19:47] many people saw your ad while it ran
[1:19:49] >> right and again
[1:19:54] we don't want to be handicapped
[1:19:56] as to be not not competitive in any type
[1:20:00] of industry. So, uh-oh,
[1:20:04] we're not collecting anything. Just like
[1:20:07] if I have a website, there's a record of
[1:20:09] who came to the website and who didn't
[1:20:11] come to the website, how many viewers
[1:20:12] you had. That's essentially what's, as I
[1:20:16] understand it, what's happening here.
[1:20:18] Um, but again, we will abide by whatever
[1:20:21] the legal requirements are as it relates
[1:20:23] to this data and the privacy not only of
[1:20:25] the citizens of Redbank for, but for
[1:20:27] anybody who's coming by the sign. And it and it's no different than than a
[1:20:33] non-static than a than a non-digital
[1:20:35] billboard. That could be done. It's
[1:20:38] likely being done even on static
[1:20:39] billboards. You get an understanding as
[1:20:41] to who's coming by the billboard. So
[1:20:43] then when you want to sell it for the
[1:20:44] month, you can say this is the number of
[1:20:46] people who pass by.
[1:20:48] >> Correct. It's again, it is just a
[1:20:49] structure. It's just a screen that's
[1:20:52] putting out an image where the canvas
[1:20:54] and the advertisers are the painters. I think it is different though because
[1:20:57] you can change it every 8 seconds which
[1:20:59] allows you to respond dynamically to the
[1:21:02] audience versus making these decisions
[1:21:04] well in advance as you do with the
[1:21:05] static billboard.
[1:21:06] >> So as Jen said, there's nothing that
[1:21:09] we're collecting from the billboard
[1:21:10] itself. So we don't know, we can't just
[1:21:12] automatically put out a new image
[1:21:14] because you drove past it or someone
[1:21:16] else drove past it. These ads are
[1:21:18] purchased in advance by the advertisers.
[1:21:21] They're not purchased split seconds
[1:21:23] prior to someone driving by.
[1:21:25] But that's a matter of like your policy
[1:21:27] and procedures and what the board is
[1:21:29] being asked to consider
[1:21:31] >> is a large sign that is connected to be
[1:21:36] remotely controlled by people or
[1:21:38] algorithms or AI or etc. Right? So I
[1:21:41] mean would we have to put in our
[1:21:42] conditions that you know that's how you
[1:21:44] sell ads from now and forever?
[1:21:47] >> I I don't understand. I think the
[1:21:50] question is kind of if the third party
[1:21:52] data changes because it's it's
[1:21:54] programmatic, right? And it's
[1:21:56] increasingly AI driven. So you have
[1:21:58] information about who's passing by
[1:22:01] if you're and you mentioned there's no
[1:22:03] real time. So I'll I'll assume
[1:22:04] >> as far as I understand. Okay.
[1:22:06] >> No, there's no real.
[1:22:07] >> Okay. But so if the third party data
[1:22:09] changes because it's the holidays and so
[1:22:11] all of a sudden a lot of people are in
[1:22:13] from out of town and you know does that
[1:22:16] change what the advertising content is
[1:22:18] displayed in real time or does it just
[1:22:19] inform advanced campaign planning?
[1:22:22] >> It it would have to inform advanced c
[1:22:24] campaign. Okay.
[1:22:25] >> I mean these advertisers buy them
[1:22:27] >> buy it based on exactly right what they
[1:22:30] know. And then um one other question
[1:22:31] just is the optimization and the third
[1:22:33] party data is it used on an individual
[1:22:35] level or a household level?
[1:22:38] I don't even know that I understand the
[1:22:40] difference between.
[1:22:41] >> So if my child is connected to my third
[1:22:44] party data as a household because of
[1:22:46] course the data provider knows that I
[1:22:48] have two kids and where we live. Will my
[1:22:51] son see ads? Will that is is that like
[1:22:54] is the data aggregated based on me?
[1:22:57] >> It it's anonymized. There is no
[1:22:59] individualization in the in the third
[1:23:01] party data.
[1:23:01] >> So it's to it's it's aggregated.
[1:23:03] >> Yes.
[1:23:04] >> Absolutely.
[1:23:04] >> Yeah. That was what that that was what I
[1:23:06] think we started with verbatim that it
[1:23:08] is an aggregated consent mobile location
[1:23:12] data. Got it.
[1:23:13] >> So an advertiser would know based on
[1:23:16] publicly available data like right
[1:23:19] there's this many children that live in
[1:23:21] Redbank. Therefore I might want to place
[1:23:23] an ad for my toy company on this
[1:23:26] billboard. That is something someone
[1:23:28] could do. Suppose
[1:23:30] if River Center is using it and the
[1:23:32] burrow is using it.
[1:23:35] I'm not sure what the distinction is
[1:23:37] here. It is being
[1:23:39] >> it is it is being used everywhere.
[1:23:42] Everything you do it's so again
[1:23:46] >> we are not collecting anything. It's
[1:23:48] anonymous. It's not individually
[1:23:50] targeted. That I can commit to.
[1:23:53] I think I can try to clarify that the at
[1:23:56] least I don't know about the other
[1:23:58] members of the board, but my concern is
[1:24:00] not that you're doing something unique
[1:24:02] or that you're collecting data or that
[1:24:04] you even have the names of people,
[1:24:06] right? I know I understand it's all
[1:24:07] anonymized and my concern is really that
[1:24:10] the experience of the targeted ad is
[1:24:13] public and on display and responsive to
[1:24:16] the audience and that audience can be
[1:24:17] small enough to raise a privacy concern.
[1:24:21] >> Okay. I I we can as as Kevin liked to
[1:24:23] say, we can agree to disagree. Um I
[1:24:26] understand your position, but it's no
[1:24:29] different than um if the burrow were to
[1:24:32] put up a little, you know, one of those
[1:24:34] little screens with the scrolling that
[1:24:36] goes through it or Count Bassy scrolling
[1:24:39] that goes through it. They also have
[1:24:41] availability to use this data. We know
[1:24:43] the bureau is already using it. Perhaps
[1:24:44] the bureau is sharing it with Count Basy
[1:24:46] and those scrolls that go through are I
[1:24:50] don't believe it's a privacy issue and I
[1:24:52] certainly don't think it's a privacy
[1:24:53] issue that would in any in any way
[1:24:55] violate any
[1:24:57] >> federal
[1:24:58] >> No, I don't think it's legal. So,
[1:25:00] >> so what we're what we're doing here is
[1:25:02] trying to determine what exactly is
[1:25:04] going to happen with the billboard and
[1:25:06] what it's going to be like because this
[1:25:08] is a town where people scrutinize
[1:25:11] everything that the government does and
[1:25:13] everything on every corner, every little
[1:25:15] hole in the wall, every little pothole,
[1:25:17] a light is left on. So, we need to
[1:25:20] understand and also flesh out in the
[1:25:21] hearing what actually is going to happen
[1:25:23] with that billboard and what it's really
[1:25:24] going to be doing that.
[1:25:26] >> But, no, but I'm not I'm not asking your
[1:25:28] question. I'm making a statement. So,
[1:25:29] I'm just saying that what we're trying
[1:25:30] to do is why we're asking all these
[1:25:33] questions because very informed people
[1:25:34] who understand these things. So, we want
[1:25:36] to understand exactly what we're getting
[1:25:38] and exactly what's going to happen. And
[1:25:39] it's a way of informing the public who
[1:25:41] may be watching this. There's reporters
[1:25:44] here so people understand what's coming
[1:25:46] and that we fleshed out what's coming to
[1:25:48] the town. That's what we're doing.
[1:25:49] >> And I appreciate that, Mr. Havens. I can
[1:25:51] tell you is my office is across the
[1:25:54] highway from a billboard that a digital
[1:25:56] billboard that I go by every single day.
[1:25:59] Not once, and it's an outfront
[1:26:01] billboard. Not once has there ever been
[1:26:04] an ad that flashed that was in any way
[1:26:08] related to any demographic data of mine.
[1:26:12] That I can tell you for sure. And I pass
[1:26:15] it every day, twice a day.
[1:26:18] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think if I could also
[1:26:19] clarify the the reason I'm asking these
[1:26:22] questions is because we have an
[1:26:24] ordinance that um pertains to billboards
[1:26:28] and signs and it's I'm going to read it
[1:26:30] just so it's clear. It it's actually the
[1:26:32] very first um section of our 490-104
[1:26:36] uh ordinance for signs and it says uh a
[1:26:40] sub or subsection a1 to protect the
[1:26:42] public health, safety and welfare by
[1:26:44] restricting signs which impair the
[1:26:45] public's ability to receive information
[1:26:47] violate privacy or which increase the
[1:26:49] probability of accidents by distracting
[1:26:51] attention or obstructing vision. And so
[1:26:53] I'm focusing on the violate privacy one
[1:26:54] because this is the ordinance that you
[1:26:57] are here asking for relief from.
[1:26:59] >> Correct. and and our position is is that
[1:27:01] the anonymity of it is in no way an
[1:27:04] invasion of privacy.
[1:27:09] » Okay.
[1:27:10] >> Is is there a time frame in advance that
[1:27:15] the messages the messages are pre
[1:27:17] pre-prepare?
[1:27:19] >> I think it is. Okay. Is that better?
[1:27:20] >> Yeah, you just got cop.
[1:27:21] >> Thank you. So is there if the messages
[1:27:25] are pre-prepared
[1:27:27] and pre-esigned is there a time frame in
[1:27:31] advance of their display that
[1:27:36] you know in other words like for example
[1:27:38] all ads to appear on the 15th of the
[1:27:40] month must be completed by the first of
[1:27:42] the month something like that so that we
[1:27:45] know that there's some sort of
[1:27:46] information with respect to how far in
[1:27:48] advance the schedule of ads of course
[1:27:51] minus miss any emergency situations but
[1:27:54] the schedule of advertising is prepared
[1:27:57] and
[1:27:59] finalized with an outfront.
[1:28:01] So my understanding is that the
[1:28:04] advertisers purchase there's a sales
[1:28:06] contract from what I understand. So they
[1:28:08] purchase let's say from January 1st to
[1:28:12] March 15th there. To your point it
[1:28:15] doesn't I don't know if it needs to be
[1:28:17] at a certain point like you need to get
[1:28:19] us the image prior to this date. Once
[1:28:22] they purchase their contract, they then
[1:28:24] provide, I believe, the sales and the
[1:28:25] creative team with their image, but it
[1:28:28] doesn't need to be provided by a certain
[1:28:30] date to run.
[1:28:31] >> We're not creating these images,
[1:28:32] correct?
[1:28:32] >> No, we're not. I mean, we have a
[1:28:34] creative department, but the advertiser
[1:28:35] who's buying the sales contract can
[1:28:37] either provide us with their image or
[1:28:40] pay us
[1:28:40] >> instruct us to what they would like to
[1:28:42] put up there. Correct.
[1:28:43] >> So, that's all done in advance. There
[1:28:45] must be some sort of schedule and
[1:28:46] deadlines, I'm assuming.
[1:28:48] >> I would have to assume so. So that's you
[1:28:50] know it's not as we're hearing these
[1:28:54] very legitimate concerns with respect to
[1:28:56] privacy and data collection. I mean
[1:28:58] there is I'm assuming I guess you're not
[1:29:00] able to provide the specifics some type
[1:29:02] of process and procedure
[1:29:05] at your company just like at every
[1:29:06] company we have you know deadlines for
[1:29:08] things to be submitted. For example our
[1:29:12] report for the Redbank zoning board has
[1:29:14] to be turned in. We can't just walk into
[1:29:15] the meeting with it. has to be turned in
[1:29:17] 48 hours in advance or something like
[1:29:19] that. It's all done in advance.
[1:29:20] >> Even in an emergency situation, you have
[1:29:23] to call. You have to say, "We need to
[1:29:25] run this, but it needs to stay. It need
[1:29:28] I'm either going to send it to you or
[1:29:30] you're going to create it for me. It's
[1:29:33] not instantaneous.
[1:29:36] >> The potential is there to be next day.
[1:29:39] You could certainly do that. If you have
[1:29:40] a contract for six months, you could
[1:29:42] feed in an image and change the image
[1:29:44] for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. You
[1:29:47] could do different images. Eventually,
[1:29:48] you'll be able to do that if you don't
[1:29:50] do it now where you could just change
[1:29:52] the images in 24 hours. I could have a
[1:29:54] new ad in 24. I'm not objecting to it.
[1:29:56] makes sense, but
[1:29:58] >> and I that is my understanding. I believe
[1:30:01] so. I'm not 100% sure, but that is my
[1:30:04] understanding. In
[1:30:04] >> the future, it could be done very
[1:30:05] quickly, but that's still it's just the
[1:30:07] way it is.
[1:30:11] Um I have a question. Uh the slightly
[1:30:13] unrelated but similar topic. Um the town
[1:30:18] the burough use time you mentioned there
[1:30:21] are certain guidelines around like must
[1:30:22] be politically neutral etc. Are there
[1:30:24] guidelines that dictate the other
[1:30:27] advertiser types of ads like protected
[1:30:31] categories unprotected cate like what governs other types of ads that
[1:30:35] might show up on this billboard?
[1:30:37] So the first amendment as well as we
[1:30:39] have our legal department reviewed.
[1:30:41] There's nothing that's going to be put
[1:30:43] out there that is illegal. Um there's no
[1:30:46] nude, you know, um images, lewd images,
[1:30:49] uh violence, you know, we're we're a
[1:30:52] publicly traded company. Um you know,
[1:30:55] >> for the you know, 80 87.5% of time
[1:30:58] political ads could be fair game if
[1:31:00] they're paid for by, you know, vest an
[1:31:03] interest, etc.
[1:31:04] >> Yes. My understanding is yes.
[1:31:06] >> And yeah. Okay. It it is across the
[1:31:08] street from a Planned Parenthood I would
[1:31:10] like to just note as well. So I don't
[1:31:11] know if we want to maybe be aware of
[1:31:14] that as as well.
[1:31:18] » Okay.
[1:31:19] >> Any other questions?
[1:31:21] >> Yeah. Um I wanted to revisit the
[1:31:23] protocol B a bit. That was the one where
[1:31:25] the burrow gets the 12.5%
[1:31:28] time as it's used. And so I'm trying to
[1:31:30] understand the um value of that benefit.
[1:31:33] And and one of the ways I could
[1:31:34] understand it is if um the bureau were
[1:31:37] already spending x amount of dollars on
[1:31:40] outfront ads, it could then use this
[1:31:43] time instead to save um some of its
[1:31:46] budget. And so are you aware is of what the bureau does spend on
[1:31:51] outfront ads today?
[1:31:52] >> I I'm not in sales. I can't answer that
[1:31:54] question. I'm sorry. But to your point,
[1:31:56] yes, you could absolutely if you are
[1:31:58] spending money now, you could
[1:32:00] potentially stop and use your dedicated
[1:32:02] time,
[1:32:03] >> right? I'm trying to quantify how much
[1:32:04] and and so I I don't recall seeing any
[1:32:06] burrow advertisements on on static
[1:32:08] billboards, so I'm just going to assume
[1:32:10] it's zero, but um if you would if you
[1:32:12] know otherwise, please let us know.
[1:32:14] >> Well, but but also, Mr. Goodday, we're
[1:32:15] not saying that it's necessarily a
[1:32:17] financial benefit to the
[1:32:19] >> No, but that's one way to understand it.
[1:32:21] it is, but we think that it is a
[1:32:23] public benefit to the burough residents
[1:32:26] that their municipality is able to
[1:32:28] communicate with them with important
[1:32:30] information in a medium that will be
[1:32:33] seen by a lot of people,
[1:32:34] >> which they can do today if they pay
[1:32:36] market rates for it.
[1:32:37] >> Well, they can't do it today on the same
[1:32:39] way because there is no digital
[1:32:40] billboard in Redbank and the billboards
[1:32:44] are changed once a month as it relates
[1:32:47] to um a static billboard. So, for
[1:32:51] example, if the senior center decided
[1:32:53] they were going to have a Valentine's
[1:32:55] Day party and they wanted everybody to
[1:32:57] know,
[1:32:59] the the bureau could call up and say,
[1:33:00] "Next week, please run this." You can't
[1:33:02] do that with a static billboard. So, the
[1:33:04] benefit of a digital billboard is that
[1:33:07] you have the ability to provide more
[1:33:10] timely burrow type announcements,
[1:33:12] whether emergency or non-emergency. It's
[1:33:15] not about a financial benefit as much as
[1:33:18] it is about a convenience benefit for
[1:33:20] the burrow to reach an audience on much
[1:33:22] more timely things than a static
[1:33:24] billboard would be able to.
[1:33:25] >> Okay. And if I were to ask a different
[1:33:28] way to try to understand objectively
[1:33:30] what the value of that is um the what
[1:33:34] would be the market rate for that 12.5%
[1:33:36] or for one of those 8-second slots?
[1:33:39] >> I'm not aware.
[1:33:40] >> Okay.
[1:33:42] It seems to me it's a that the u the 12
[1:33:46] and a half% is is going to be of
[1:33:49] tremendous value to the bureau and for
[1:33:51] advertising events especially and for
[1:33:53] reaching people which is very difficult
[1:33:55] today in this enormously uh environment
[1:34:00] and we needed to be doing stuff in
[1:34:01] Spanish to reach people here. Um, and I
[1:34:05] think it's of tremendous value to the
[1:34:07] town to have something like this to do
[1:34:09] like I saw the Dville ads and what
[1:34:11] they're trying to do and trying to get
[1:34:13] people to shop Red Bank and spend in Red
[1:34:15] Bank.
[1:34:16] >> And just to echo that, Mr. Havens, on on
[1:34:18] the former site at 187, the burrow
[1:34:22] actually set up a giant display. I I
[1:34:26] don't know that it was um digital but it
[1:34:29] was a lighted display to give messages
[1:34:32] to people at that location. So there is
[1:34:35] a need to disseminate this information.
[1:34:37] A lot of municipalities have their own
[1:34:39] digital signs with which they do this.
[1:34:41] You drive into Belmar, you have welcome
[1:34:42] to Belmar and all the announcements are
[1:34:44] there. So there is definitely a need in
[1:34:47] addition to the internet obviously uh to
[1:34:50] do this. So again this is a public
[1:34:52] benefit not a financial benefit
[1:34:54] necessarily.
[1:34:58] Okay,
[1:34:59] everybody's okay. We'll kind of move on.
[1:35:04] >> I did have another question actually on
[1:35:05] the um is this would be the right time
[1:35:07] to talk about the removals in the
[1:35:09] settlement. Yeah.
[1:35:10] >> Yes.
[1:35:10] >> Okay. And so we had asked before about
[1:35:12] which one of those uh had is I'm sorry I
[1:35:16] had asked a question before about which
[1:35:18] of those faces already has a permit to
[1:35:21] be removed. Right. And
[1:35:22] >> no no that wasn't the question. I'm
[1:35:23] sorry. Not to be. Yes. It was a you
[1:35:25] asked to be turned to digital and the
[1:35:27] answer was two and I I want to go you
[1:35:29] rais a a good point for a discussion
[1:35:31] that I had had with Kevin so thank you
[1:35:33] for raising that
[1:35:34] >> so just so the I I promised I would talk
[1:35:36] about this so I'm going to do it now um
[1:35:38] the way that the settlement agreement is
[1:35:41] written there is a trigger date which is
[1:35:43] what um governs all of the various
[1:35:47] actions that are required
[1:35:50] and I want to read it exactly because I
[1:35:55] Don't want to misstate anything. So the
[1:35:59] trigger date for which all action is
[1:36:01] required is a multitude of different
[1:36:04] things. One, it would be an approval by
[1:36:08] this board, a memorialization and any
[1:36:10] appeal period. Two, confirmation that
[1:36:14] the uh litigation
[1:36:17] was that any any appeal or litigation is
[1:36:20] fully concluded and it's gone. And then
[1:36:22] three, most importantly, the issuance of
[1:36:25] construction permits for the billboard.
[1:36:28] And one of the questions Kevin astutely
[1:36:31] asked me was, well, if you have 90 days
[1:36:34] from then to remove all of the
[1:36:36] billboards, how do we know that you're
[1:36:38] going to actually remove them if you
[1:36:41] have the opportunity to put your digital
[1:36:43] billboard up digital billboard up first?
[1:36:46] And that's when Kevin and I discussed
[1:36:48] that the board is able to impose
[1:36:50] conditions. and I want to just explain
[1:36:51] the process with the board and then I'll
[1:36:53] share what condition we'd be willing to
[1:36:55] agree to. So, as I understand it,
[1:36:59] outfront doesn't order the materials
[1:37:02] for any billboard that they're
[1:37:03] constructing until the construction
[1:37:05] permits have been issued.
[1:37:07] >> Correct. That is correct.
[1:37:08] >> And the types of materials for a
[1:37:10] billboard like this would typically take
[1:37:12] how long to get there? anywhere from 8
[1:37:15] to 12 weeks, sometimes a little longer
[1:37:17] depending on if it's a unique size or
[1:37:19] configuration, but typically two to
[1:37:21] three months.
[1:37:22] >> So, if outfront were willing to agree
[1:37:24] that they would not be permitted to
[1:37:26] commence construction on the billboard
[1:37:28] structure until it was confirmed that
[1:37:31] all nine faces have been removed as
[1:37:34] required by the um settlement, that
[1:37:37] would be a condition we would accept.
[1:37:39] >> Yes, 100%. So that isn't something that
[1:37:42] was negotiated as part of the
[1:37:43] settlement, but in an effort to assure
[1:37:46] the board that we can't put up our new
[1:37:48] billboard should you vote in favor until
[1:37:52] all those nine faces are gone, we're
[1:37:55] willing to accept that as a condition.
[1:37:56] And I think that gives the board a level
[1:37:59] the municipality a level of security
[1:38:01] that would be a lot more than posting of
[1:38:04] bonds or the ability to go to court to
[1:38:05] enforce a settlement agreement.
[1:38:06] >> Is it just the faces or the faces and
[1:38:08] the structure?
[1:38:09] >> Faces and the structure.
[1:38:10] I'm I'm calling it eight faces because
[1:38:11] there are not eight structures,
[1:38:13] >> right? Eight faces, four structures.
[1:38:15] >> Eight faces and however many structures
[1:38:17] they sit on. And then it's nine when you
[1:38:20] include 187.
[1:38:21] >> And just for the record, we um said
[1:38:24] permanent 100% removal and abandonment
[1:38:27] of the structures, the the framework, I
[1:38:29] mean everything, the kitten
[1:38:31] >> and JD dot permit as well.
[1:38:32] >> Yes.
[1:38:33] >> Right. So So again, that's something
[1:38:34] that could be inspected by No, sorry,
[1:38:36] Jackie. That's something that can be
[1:38:38] inspected by your burough engineer and
[1:38:40] then that could be the trigger for the
[1:38:42] construction department allowing us to
[1:38:44] commence construction.
[1:38:45] >> So essentially what you're going to do
[1:38:46] is just get started on all the work that
[1:38:48] you have to do.
[1:38:49] >> Correct.
[1:38:49] >> Just get going on all
[1:38:51] >> the moment we get the sooner the better.
[1:38:54] >> Should we get there? The moment we get
[1:38:55] the construction permit for the new
[1:38:57] billboard is when we start dismantling
[1:39:00] all of the other ones and hopefully
[1:39:02] we're done by the time we get the
[1:39:04] materials for the new one. One thing
[1:39:06] though, a caveat that I had uh talked to
[1:39:08] Kevin about, as you know, there are
[1:39:10] other things related to this as you're
[1:39:12] going to hear when when Dan gets up
[1:39:14] here, is we're reconstructing the
[1:39:17] island. We're moving the sign that's
[1:39:19] existing there today back from the right
[1:39:21] ofway. Uh so what we'd like to do is not
[1:39:25] have it tied to the site work related to
[1:39:27] the relocation of the other sign and
[1:39:29] prep. It's just the actual billboard
[1:39:31] construction cannot commence. So, that
[1:39:33] was what we were offering. And I think
[1:39:35] that gives us the opportunity that once
[1:39:37] the materials come in and once uh
[1:39:40] Jackie's confirmed that all the nine
[1:39:41] other billboards have been uh adequately
[1:39:44] removed and abandoned, that would give
[1:39:46] us the opportunity to have the site
[1:39:47] ready to get moving.
[1:39:49] >> So, essentially, it won't be lit up
[1:39:51] until the other ones are gone.
[1:39:53] >> Won't even be lit up until the other
[1:39:55] ones are gone because we still have to
[1:39:57] build it.
[1:39:58] >> But you got to build it. And I was
[1:40:00] curious about that. You set back further
[1:40:01] than I expected to be. I thought it'd be
[1:40:03] closer to Newman. Um
[1:40:05] >> no. So it it can I
[1:40:07] >> Dan testified if you don't mind?
[1:40:11] >> So um the the nine faces and so the ones
[1:40:15] at Oakland that was the other one
[1:40:18] besides Riverside that is eligible for
[1:40:20] conversion. I I also understand that one is in the train station
[1:40:24] redevelopment area. And so regardless of
[1:40:27] the settlement, it's my understanding
[1:40:28] that one is compelled to be removed. Is
[1:40:30] that right?
[1:40:31] >> It I don't I don't have the answer to
[1:40:33] that, but I know that that was a
[1:40:35] discussion, which is why we added an
[1:40:36] additional one.
[1:40:37] >> Correct. So I if you if I could jump in
[1:40:39] here. So yes, uh to your point, it is uh
[1:40:42] being developed and those will have to
[1:40:43] come down. So the original hearing, I
[1:40:45] believe there were six billboards
[1:40:47] offered up for removal. Uh because of
[1:40:49] what you just mentioned, those are
[1:40:51] coming down regardless of what happens
[1:40:53] here tonight.
[1:40:53] >> Those two.
[1:40:54] He added another two bringing
[1:40:56] it from six to eight as well as
[1:40:58] Riverside which makes it nine total.
[1:41:01] >> Okay. And could you tell us about the
[1:41:04] you told us the lease terms of the
[1:41:05] proposed billboard is 15 years with five
[1:41:08] years. What was the
[1:41:09] >> Yeah, a five-year out outfront option.
[1:41:11] >> Outfront option. Okay. And of for the
[1:41:14] phases that would be coming down, I'm
[1:41:16] most interested in I guess 187
[1:41:18] Riverside, 31 Shrewsbury app, and 300
[1:41:20] Maple. what is the remaining lease terms
[1:41:23] on those so that I can compare you know
[1:41:25] there's 15 uh years of billboard faces
[1:41:29] coming up as part of this proposal how
[1:41:31] many years of billboard is coming down
[1:41:33] >> I I don't have that um
[1:41:36] >> but but again just because the lease
[1:41:38] expires doesn't mean that the landlord
[1:41:40] wouldn't renew it
[1:41:42] >> because it's lucrative so I don't think
[1:41:44] that even if we had that information I
[1:41:46] don't know that that's a fair metric
[1:41:47] because again they could be renewed
[1:41:50] which they have been. The billboard at
[1:41:52] 187 has been continuously renewed
[1:41:56] for
[1:41:56] >> 50s or 60s and each lease term is not
[1:41:59] that long. But regardless,
[1:42:02] we were asked in the settlement to
[1:42:04] provide some very specific information
[1:42:06] which I believe that we did and we'll
[1:42:07] get through all of it. But the lease
[1:42:09] terms of the various billboards that
[1:42:11] we're removing is not information that
[1:42:12] we have available nor that we can
[1:42:14] present.
[1:42:15] >> But but you do know you're you're
[1:42:17] managing 3,500 billboards in the state
[1:42:19] of New Jersey. No. in the country. No.
[1:42:21] State of New Jersey.
[1:42:22] >> State of New Jersey. My
[1:42:23] >> How many How often are those
[1:42:25] discontinued?
[1:42:28] >> Not that often.
[1:42:29] >> That's what I thought.
[1:42:31] >> No, but I mean it's pretty well
[1:42:32] documented that at least the current
[1:42:33] property owner of 187 Riverside is
[1:42:35] motivated to not have a billboard there.
[1:42:37] So, we know in some cases
[1:42:39] >> the current owner that purchased it
[1:42:41] after our denial had that feeling
[1:42:44] because
[1:42:45] >> that was part of the objection. So
[1:42:46] again, how one property owner
[1:42:50] did it, again, the testimony is is that
[1:42:53] typically it's lucrative for the land
[1:42:55] owners. It's a passive use that uh they
[1:42:59] derive income from. There'd be no reason
[1:43:00] why they wouldn't allow it to continue,
[1:43:03] >> but they might. And and there's some
[1:43:06] information asymmetry here because, you
[1:43:07] know, these lease terms, but but we
[1:43:09] don't. And so I'm kind of at a
[1:43:10] disadvantage when weighing 15 new years
[1:43:13] of billboard faces versus these other
[1:43:15] ones that could come down in a year. And
[1:43:19] I
[1:43:19] >> we don't anticipate that any of those
[1:43:21] billboards would be coming down in a
[1:43:23] year except for perhaps the one on the
[1:43:25] transit
[1:43:26] >> 187. Um the lease uh
[1:43:31] >> we had an additional two or three years
[1:43:33] left on that lease. So that lease could
[1:43:36] continue past the wish that that could
[1:43:39] continue even though the properties
[1:43:40] changed hands. Yeah. Thank you.
[1:43:46] » Are any of the um did did you apply for
[1:43:49] a permit to upgrade with like um to an
[1:43:52] electronic billboard? Uh how many out of
[1:43:55] the eight that you're taking down did
[1:43:56] you apply for a permit to upgrade those?
[1:44:00] >> Me personally, none of those. Um I but
[1:44:02] they it looks like it says that they are
[1:44:04] eligible for an upgrade for those two
[1:44:06] based on the exhibit.
[1:44:07] >> So two out of the eight.
[1:44:08] >> Correct. Two faces out of the two
[1:44:10] locations out of the four which is a two
[1:44:13] of
[1:44:14] >> three faces.
[1:44:15] >> So those you got the permits to to
[1:44:18] upgrade those and then you would have
[1:44:19] had to come before the zoning board.
[1:44:21] >> Yes, 100%. And some of those permits
[1:44:23] could have been approve uh applied for
[1:44:25] to potentially block out other
[1:44:26] competitors from putting up a digital.
[1:44:29] Just because Outfront applies for a
[1:44:31] digital permit doesn't necessarily mean
[1:44:33] that we're looking to convert it because
[1:44:36] of the zoning laws from the DOT and the
[1:44:40] spacing there. It's a competitive way to
[1:44:42] stop other digital billboards from being
[1:44:44] built.
[1:44:44] >> And you apply for that though with the
[1:44:47] um through the DOT.
[1:44:48] >> Yes, correct. All
[1:44:49] >> did you apply for permits for all for
[1:44:52] all four structures that you're giving
[1:44:54] up here or just two of the four? Uh, I
[1:44:56] believe just two of the four.
[1:44:58] >> Were any of the um any applications that
[1:45:01] you put in for a permit denied in
[1:45:03] Redbank to upgrade by the DOT?
[1:45:06] >> No,
[1:45:07] not to my knowledge.
[1:45:08] >> And with what frequency it does the DOT
[1:45:11] deny applications to upgrade billboards
[1:45:14] throughout the state?
[1:45:15] >> The only reason for denial would be that
[1:45:18] it doesn't fit their requirements for
[1:45:19] zoning, spacing, and ramp spacing. uh
[1:45:24] they're very black and white with what
[1:45:26] they're looking for. There's no
[1:45:28] inbetweens. It's either you fit their
[1:45:30] requirements or you don't. And that's
[1:45:31] the only reason you would get a denial.
[1:45:33] >> So, is it 90% approval rate by the
[1:45:35] state?
[1:45:37] >> I I I don't have that answer for you,
[1:45:39] but it's
[1:45:41] >> Well, they routinely approve it as long
[1:45:43] as it meets the terms of the law.
[1:45:45] >> Exactly. That is correct.
[1:45:50] You know, for me it and I guess you have
[1:45:53] some more testimony coming forward, but
[1:45:55] >> we do have quite a few more witnesses
[1:45:56] coming
[1:45:57] >> that I I won't give a little narrative.
[1:45:58] I'll let
[1:46:01] >> Right. I I I certainly want wouldn't
[1:46:02] want it to appear that you prejudged it.
[1:46:04] So, I would ask you to wait until we
[1:46:05] finish with all of our witnesses where
[1:46:08] you offer us your opinion.
[1:46:10] >> Okay. Any more questions for this
[1:46:12] witness from the board?
[1:46:16] Any questions from the public for this
[1:46:19] witness?
[1:46:22] Come on up.
[1:46:25] >> Hello. Good evening. If you could just
[1:46:26] state your name and address. Need to get
[1:46:28] a micro. Grab that mic out of it. There
[1:46:31] you go.
[1:46:39] Name and address.
[1:46:40] >> Suzani 25 C Street. Do you swear that
[1:46:42] the information and testimony you're
[1:46:44] about to provide to the extent you
[1:46:45] provide any will be the truth to best
[1:46:46] your knowledge to help you God?
[1:46:48] >> Yes.
[1:46:48] >> Thank you.
[1:46:48] >> Could I just get the spelling of your
[1:46:50] last name?
[1:46:50] >> Vistor. I S C O M I.
[1:46:54] >> And your address again?
[1:46:56] >> 25 Cedar. CE D A R Street.
[1:47:02] I am not speaking on behalf of the
[1:47:04] school board or anything. I'm speaking
[1:47:06] for myself. Um I have a question. You
[1:47:08] mentioned that the town can use this
[1:47:10] forformational purposes. Uh would that
[1:47:12] include or would there be a separate ask
[1:47:15] for like the library and the schools to
[1:47:17] have uh small access forformational
[1:47:24] » certainly the town could give some of
[1:47:26] their time. So
[1:47:27] >> correct I mean if it's part of red bank
[1:47:29] >> the library or the board of ed.
[1:47:32] >> So not exclusively to just the town's
[1:47:34] activity. It could be if the board of ed
[1:47:36] acts for time or
[1:47:37] >> well they wouldn't the board of ed
[1:47:38] wouldn't ask us for the time they would
[1:47:40] go to the bureau gets 12 and a half% how
[1:47:42] the burrow wants to use that 12 and a
[1:47:44] half% is going to be up to the burrow
[1:47:46] >> and we kind of do that now because the middle school has a nice digital
[1:47:51] board and the library does too. So thank
[1:47:53] you.
[1:47:54] >> Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else from
[1:47:57] the public?
[1:47:59] Come on up.
[1:48:02] Name and address question.
[1:48:08] » Uh, Victor Roller, 187 Riverside Avenue,
[1:48:10] Red Bank, New Jersey.
[1:48:11] >> Good evening and welcome. Do you swear
[1:48:13] that the information and testimony
[1:48:14] you're about to provide to the extent
[1:48:15] you provide any will be the truth to the
[1:48:17] best of your knowledge to help you God?
[1:48:19] >> Yes.
[1:48:20] >> Thank you.
[1:48:20] >> Uh, question. You talked about the
[1:48:23] public and financial benefit of giving
[1:48:26] the time to Red Bank. Um, I know what
[1:48:30] the billboard company pays us uh monthly
[1:48:35] and they pay us a lot of money. I think
[1:48:37] it's a tremendous benefit to the town of
[1:48:41] Redbank financially and publicly. It
[1:48:44] would be so expensive for the town to
[1:48:46] advertise and to have 12 and a half% of
[1:48:49] a billboard with advertising for the
[1:48:52] town I think is a is a unbelievable
[1:48:54] benefit financially and public benefit.
[1:48:57] So
[1:48:59] just from my knowledge of what we make
[1:49:01] and how much it would cost the town.
[1:49:03] >> Great. Thank you.
[1:49:07] Anyone else from the public?
[1:49:10] Come on up.
[1:49:15] name and address.
[1:49:16] >> Esther Nelson, uh, 39 Parkway Place,
[1:49:19] Redbank, New Jersey.
[1:49:20] >> All right. And just speak loudly into
[1:49:22] that mic.
[1:49:22] >> Right into that.
[1:49:23] >> Do you swear that the information and
[1:49:24] testimony you're about to provide to the
[1:49:26] extent you providing will be the truth?
[1:49:27] To best your knowledge to help you God.
[1:49:29] >> Yes.
[1:49:29] >> Thank you.
[1:49:30] Um, I was just curious if
[1:49:32] Outfront Media has subsidiaries that
[1:49:35] also put up billboards so that like
[1:49:38] there's another one proposed on Newman
[1:49:39] Springs Road at the Extend State America
[1:49:41] right now that's going through process.
[1:49:44] Um, and if there's relationship with
[1:49:46] Outfront Media with other companies that
[1:49:49] are applying, so not under the name
[1:49:50] Outfront Media. So if so, just so I
[1:49:53] understand the question, you want to
[1:49:54] make sure that outfront isn't going to
[1:49:55] use some shell company to put up
[1:49:58] billboards because we're promising that
[1:50:00] we won't.
[1:50:02] >> Uh um I'm asking not not specific just
[1:50:05] are there other companies under under
[1:50:08] outfront that
[1:50:09] >> operate under any other entities?
[1:50:12] >> No, we do not.
[1:50:14] >> I'm sorry. Can I can I just say one
[1:50:15] thing because that's an excellent
[1:50:16] question and in the settlement agreement
[1:50:19] it specifically references outfront
[1:50:21] media and its agents representatives
[1:50:23] affiliated and related entities. So
[1:50:25] everything that they're committing to
[1:50:27] it's going to be to their affiliates as
[1:50:29] well.
[1:50:30] >> Okay. Thank you. And and this is not at
[1:50:32] all connected to the one that's about a
[1:50:33] mile down the road proposed?
[1:50:35] >> Not to my knowledge. No.
[1:50:37] >> And and I'm just curious it's dual
[1:50:39] spacing.
[1:50:40] >> Yes. Two faces back to back.
[1:50:42] >> We didn't get we didn't even get there
[1:50:43] yet.
[1:50:43] >> Oh okay. We we have pictures and
[1:50:45] everything of it. We just don't have not
[1:50:47] yet.
[1:50:47] >> All right. Thank you.
[1:50:48] >> Okay. Thank you.
[1:50:51] >> Okay. Last call for public. Come on up.
[1:50:59] Name and address.
[1:51:01] >> Brian Ramirez. Don't place right there.
[1:51:04] >> And Ramirez is R A M
[1:51:07] >> I R E Z.
[1:51:09] >> Okay. And do you swear that the
[1:51:10] information and testimony you're about
[1:51:12] to provide to the extent you provide any
[1:51:13] will be the truth to best your knowledge
[1:51:15] to help you guide?
[1:51:16] >> Yep. Thank you.
[1:51:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. Just what street I just
[1:51:21] >> by please
[1:51:24] >> I'm sorry. Okay. When he turns to talk
[1:51:26] into the mic, he turns away from me so I
[1:51:28] can't see him.
[1:51:29] >> Take the mic out of I don't do that
[1:51:30] often.
[1:51:31] >> I got it. Thank you.
[1:51:32] >> Um just want to say two things. So uh
[1:51:34] one I've been in digital marketing for
[1:51:37] about I guess 20 years now. uh to date
[1:51:39] myself. Um so I've seen it change for a
[1:51:42] while. Um and everything you guys are
[1:51:44] saying is like I best my knowledge is
[1:51:46] true. Like the tracking is pretty
[1:51:48] elementary compared to what what else is
[1:51:50] out there right now. My concern is just
[1:51:53] having seen it change over 20 years, 15
[1:51:55] years is a very long time. And so as you
[1:51:57] guys kind of think about what the New
[1:52:00] Jersey standards are right now, the
[1:52:01] stuff they're going to abide by as a
[1:52:04] resident with young kids, all that sort
[1:52:05] of stuff, just knowing how it changes,
[1:52:07] if you can think about head about, you
[1:52:10] know, what the standards are right now
[1:52:12] and should be and how that, you know,
[1:52:14] aligning it with how New Jersey changes
[1:52:16] or whatever else,
[1:52:19] you you don't you don't uh you don't
[1:52:21] control that trajectory necessarily,
[1:52:23] right? But if you think about what's
[1:52:24] best for the town right now and what you
[1:52:25] want to be in 15 years, that's how I'd
[1:52:27] encourage you to kind of think about
[1:52:29] putting those parameters in place if
[1:52:30] that's how how it works. Um because and
[1:52:34] because the other thing that also uh one
[1:52:35] other thing that wasn't brought up, we
[1:52:36] talked a lot about the out of home
[1:52:39] tracking and everything. Uh but the mo
[1:52:42] the mobile buys you guys actually do not
[1:52:44] talk about as well like you know by
[1:52:46] looking at the pitch deck. I was looking
[1:52:47] at my phone most of this time, right?
[1:52:49] your your sales agents are selling not
[1:52:52] just the the the billboard buys but also
[1:52:54] the mobile personalization that comes
[1:52:56] when you pass it, right? Like trying to
[1:52:58] make sure that if I drive by it that
[1:53:00] then later on I get out of my phone as
[1:53:03] well. And so I'm not sure why that was
[1:53:05] necessarily brought up because I think
[1:53:06] it probably addresses a lot of the
[1:53:07] concerns you guys are bringing up about
[1:53:08] the personalization and the tracking,
[1:53:10] but best my understanding again based on
[1:53:12] the sale the the public pitch decks that
[1:53:15] the sales teams used to pitch people
[1:53:17] like myself. I'm just wondering why that
[1:53:19] wasn't necessary part of the
[1:53:20] conversation so far.
[1:53:21] >> First of all, the conversation was in
[1:53:23] direct result of questions from the
[1:53:24] board. So, we were answering them.
[1:53:26] Second,
[1:53:27] >> we're not familiar with how that works
[1:53:30] any different than any other company and
[1:53:31] whether or not that even occurs today
[1:53:33] with static billboards.
[1:53:34] >> Y
[1:53:35] >> So, again, it it's nothing to do with
[1:53:37] our proposed billboards. So if outfront
[1:53:40] or any other company
[1:53:43] >> uses what you called cell phone buys and sends them that has nothing to do
[1:53:48] with what we're proposing by way of the
[1:53:51] uh use variance for the digital
[1:53:52] billboard. We were asked whether or not
[1:53:54] we were doing any tracking.
[1:53:57] >> Right. I mean, I could just just mean
[1:54:00] >> Well, I'm a little bit uncomfortable
[1:54:02] from just a legal perspective to have
[1:54:04] you read from a website without me
[1:54:06] having confirming where it's from, what
[1:54:07] it is.
[1:54:08] >> Uh, we your objections don't for the
[1:54:10] record, but we'll let you read and then
[1:54:11] we'll we'll come back to that.
[1:54:13] >> Uh, out from media media kit. Uh,
[1:54:16] >> what website is that on, Mr. Ramirez?
[1:54:18] >> This is on slideshare.net. So, maybe
[1:54:21] it's a little outdated.
[1:54:22] >> Yeah. I'd prefer if you're going to
[1:54:23] reference anything from outront it be on
[1:54:25] the outfront website.
[1:54:26] >> Yeah. Okay. That's fair. Um,
[1:54:30] yeah, it was a few years dated, but I
[1:54:31] guess this the last point I'm going to
[1:54:33] say is that this this pitch deck that I
[1:54:35] saw was I think 20 like the the early
[1:54:37] 2020s. Um, and without a home, you know,
[1:54:43] uh, I never actually bought it because
[1:54:44] it was never that they actually never
[1:54:46] had the data that I wanted as a as a
[1:54:48] digital marketer, right? But they are
[1:54:50] competing with the metas and all these
[1:54:52] much more sophisticated platforms out
[1:54:54] there. And so as a public company, you
[1:54:58] guys should be trying to get more and
[1:54:59] more sophisticated to get better and
[1:55:00] better tracking for your advertisers,
[1:55:02] right? Like I don't know why you
[1:55:03] wouldn't be I know you guys aren't doing
[1:55:05] that. Right. Right.
[1:55:05] >> And so that's what I'm more concerned
[1:55:06] about as a resident here is just how
[1:55:08] does this evolve? Where does it go from
[1:55:10] there?
[1:55:10] >> Can I just ask Mr. Mir a couple
[1:55:12] questions about what what you had said?
[1:55:13] So when you say for digital marketing,
[1:55:16] so essentially you do targeted marketing
[1:55:18] and
[1:55:20] you you utilize these services to target
[1:55:23] ads
[1:55:24] >> for my uh for my employers. Yes.
[1:55:27] >> Okay. And what kind of business is that?
[1:55:29] >> Uh I'm currently the head of marketing
[1:55:30] for like a health tech company.
[1:55:33] >> Okay. So the health tech company. So
[1:55:35] that was one example that I didn't use,
[1:55:36] but you use the exactly the type of um
[1:55:39] the type of information that we were
[1:55:41] talking about.
[1:55:42] >> Yes. But so that's that's to serve to
[1:55:44] serve the business interest of the
[1:55:45] company I work for.
[1:55:46] >> Yeah.
[1:55:47] >> No, no, no. Understood. Not personally.
[1:55:48] Of course not. So I I guess my question
[1:55:50] is
[1:55:51] >> just like you would be as the technology
[1:55:53] advances 5 years from now, 10 years from
[1:55:55] now, the laws would grow with that as it
[1:55:59] typically does, as the um technology
[1:56:02] gets better, the laws trying to regulate
[1:56:04] it attempt to get even stronger. So the
[1:56:07] same way that your company would be
[1:56:09] bound by whatever the privacy laws are
[1:56:11] for purposes of your business outfront
[1:56:14] would be bound by the very same laws
[1:56:17] on behalf of their advertisers.
[1:56:19] >> I guess from my perspective uh it seems
[1:56:22] like the laws are getting less in the
[1:56:24] favor of the consumer the past couple
[1:56:25] years. And so that doesn't seem like a
[1:56:27] train you want to be on right now. I
[1:56:29] understand, but I just I want to point
[1:56:31] out that you're objecting to one
[1:56:34] business using the same exact type of
[1:56:38] information and data
[1:56:40] >> that you're currently using on behalf of
[1:56:41] your employer and you're recognizing is
[1:56:43] used worldwide.
[1:56:45] >> I I also use AI for my for my work. I
[1:56:47] don't personally give it access to my
[1:56:49] calendar, any of my personal stuff. I
[1:56:50] don't trust it.
[1:56:51] >> Correct. Which is why we're not asking
[1:56:53] for any personal information. It's all
[1:56:54] going to be anonymous. Uh, well, I'm
[1:56:56] responding to your point about like me
[1:56:58] using it for my work and you guys trying
[1:56:59] to do the same thing. And all I'm trying
[1:57:01] to point out is the difference between a
[1:57:03] publicly traded company that needs to
[1:57:04] make more money as your, you know, uh,
[1:57:08] responsibility versus what the residents
[1:57:10] actually want and care about.
[1:57:12] >> I would like to say though that
[1:57:15] you asked you you said it wasn't brought
[1:57:18] up that we were concerned about
[1:57:20] individual ad targeting to mobile
[1:57:22] phones. And I thought we spent about a
[1:57:24] half an hour on that issue.
[1:57:25] >> Oh, sorry. Then I misspoke. I was saying
[1:57:27] the the the conversation from my
[1:57:29] perspective was more about like the out
[1:57:31] the the out of home billboards, right?
[1:57:32] The the messages changing on the
[1:57:34] billboard every 8 seconds, etc. I'm
[1:57:36] talking about the fact that they part of
[1:57:38] the media buys are also selling
[1:57:40] impressions that occur on your personal
[1:57:42] phone when people go by. They
[1:57:46] >> again my understanding is this billboard
[1:57:48] won't have that capacity and they're
[1:57:49] saying it never will.
[1:57:52] Oh, that so uh the the sales team will
[1:57:55] not sell media buys that will be able to
[1:57:57] set.
[1:57:57] >> So again, what we tested to is that our
[1:58:00] billboard will not have the ability to
[1:58:03] track anybody or anything
[1:58:05] >> or collect it.
[1:58:07] >> That is so that's different though
[1:58:08] because you guys then you guys buy the
[1:58:10] data from the third parties that can
[1:58:12] then send the information to the mobile
[1:58:13] phone.
[1:58:14] >> Again,
[1:58:15] no different.
[1:58:17] >> Yes. as it as it relates to any
[1:58:19] advertiser, it it's no different than
[1:58:23] the
[1:58:24] whether we have a billboard or not, we
[1:58:26] could still any company could use that
[1:58:29] technology. That has nothing to do with
[1:58:31] the billboard.
[1:58:32] >> Yeah, I think I just want to clarify the
[1:58:34] >> technology you're talking about is
[1:58:35] sending ads based on someone being in a
[1:58:37] certain area in town.
[1:58:39] >> And again, that's something you use for
[1:58:41] your healthcare. That's something
[1:58:43] anybody could use. Just be clear. I
[1:58:45] don't actually use it for unrelated.
[1:58:47] >> Could if I wanted to. Yes.
[1:58:48] >> Right. Unrelated.
[1:58:49] >> I just want to go back to something
[1:58:50] regarding the board of zoning board of
[1:58:52] adjustment is I think we did spend quite
[1:58:54] a bit of time trying to determine that
[1:58:56] this billboard will not be able to
[1:58:58] target individuals
[1:59:00] and and if they're selling targeting to
[1:59:03] phones, it has nothing to do with the
[1:59:05] billboard. I think
[1:59:07] >> that's not what I'm seeing. On outfront
[1:59:09] mobile seems to be the product. And
[1:59:11] >> that's what I was trying to bring up.
[1:59:12] Yes.
[1:59:13] But what does the billboard have to do
[1:59:14] with front
[1:59:14] >> to do with the digital billboard itself?
[1:59:17] It can be so again
[1:59:19] >> they they don't work together.
[1:59:21] >> It it says they do. It says if you get
[1:59:23] an impression on the digital billboard
[1:59:25] out front will help you give the same
[1:59:27] impression on the mobile device later.
[1:59:29] And that's what referred to as mobile.
[1:59:31] >> It's unrelated to the ad that's on the
[1:59:34] billboard.
[1:59:37] >> That's not what I'm reading on
[1:59:38] outfront.com.
[1:59:40] I don't think that technology is powered
[1:59:42] by something inherent in the billboard.
[1:59:43] I think it's like, hey, I could sell you
[1:59:45] the Red Bank special. It's an ad on a
[1:59:47] billboard and I target everyone in
[1:59:48] 07701.
[1:59:50] That's your Redbank advertising package.
[1:59:52] >> No, it says it's based on impressions on
[1:59:54] the billboard,
[1:59:55] >> right? So, if someone who lives at 07701
[1:59:58] is in that area, no different than if it
[2:00:01] was a school. If the school, anytime you
[2:00:04] come near the school, they could buy
[2:00:07] these ads and have something sent to the
[2:00:09] phone about we're closing early, come
[2:00:12] pick up your kids early. It
[2:00:14] >> it shows on this site, the front site,
[2:00:17] it shows the view cone from the
[2:00:19] billboard targeting a car passing by and
[2:00:22] then that individual's phone later
[2:00:24] getting the same impression. How is that
[2:00:26] not tracking that car?
[2:00:28] >> There's nothing on the actual structure.
[2:00:31] There's no device or hardware on the
[2:00:33] billboard.
[2:00:34] >> I understand it's it's in it's in the
[2:00:35] phone. I The phone is tracking the
[2:00:37] device. It's selling it to a data
[2:00:38] broker. You're buying it from the data
[2:00:40] broker. So, there's a bit of changing
[2:00:41] hands, but ultimately
[2:00:44] I mean, ultimately, it's it's just the
[2:00:46] structure. There's nothing correlating
[2:00:49] the billboard to the phone in data
[2:00:51] collection. If anything, it's the third
[2:00:53] party from my understanding. I I'm not
[2:00:55] involved in the sales or the analytics
[2:00:57] or the advertising. I I'm in the real
[2:00:59] estate department for outfront. Let let
[2:01:01] me let me give you an example.
[2:01:04] >> Vic, may I use you as an example?
[2:01:05] >> Sure.
[2:01:05] >> Thank you.
[2:01:07] If Vic wants to send targeted ads to
[2:01:10] Redbank residents,
[2:01:13] he can do an ad by like what we're
[2:01:16] talking about and it could be anytime
[2:01:19] there's a hit that someone who has a zip
[2:01:21] code of 07701 drives by Beravino,
[2:01:25] they get an ad to their phone about an
[2:01:28] about a pasta sale.
[2:01:31] That's the equivalent of what I believe
[2:01:33] Mr. Ramirez is talking about. It's not
[2:01:35] related to the billboard use. It is a
[2:01:38] technological service that is offered to
[2:01:41] anyone irrespective of it. It just so
[2:01:44] happens that the billboard use is the
[2:01:47] primary use. No different than a
[2:01:49] restaurant or a library or a bakery. So
[2:01:52] again, it's no different than any other
[2:01:54] technology any other business in town is
[2:01:57] utilizing today. So, the only reason I
[2:01:59] brought that up was because I'm glad you
[2:02:02] brought the distinction. It was not
[2:02:05] because I've dealt I' I've nerded out on
[2:02:07] this stuff for a long time. I knew it
[2:02:08] was not exactly what you guys were
[2:02:09] discussing earlier. So, I wanted to
[2:02:11] bring it to everybody's attention.
[2:02:13] As consumers, as somebody who's served
[2:02:15] ads, nobody wants more ads. I'm thinking
[2:02:17] about as a resident, I'm thinking about
[2:02:19] kids, all that sort of targeting. Just
[2:02:20] wanted to bring it up. I think the more
[2:02:22] important issue though is thinking about
[2:02:24] again just because it's how it is today
[2:02:27] doesn't mean that's what it's going to
[2:02:28] be like tomorrow. New Jersey could
[2:02:30] change its rules next year, rebules next
[2:02:33] year and we see how fast technology is
[2:02:35] changing and you know the uh from my
[2:02:39] perspective has been getting worse for
[2:02:41] the consumer. And so just thinking about
[2:02:43] what putting those parameters in place
[2:02:45] now as you think about um as you think
[2:02:47] about this deal whatever you call it.
[2:02:49] And that's exactly what we're doing by
[2:02:51] saying this billboard can't do that.
[2:02:53] >> Yeah. I was going to say what what um do
[2:02:55] you suggest as someone who's uh let's
[2:02:58] call you somewhat of an expert. You've
[2:03:00] been doing this for 20 years. So you're
[2:03:01] talking about what parameters we should
[2:03:03] consider, but what you've heard us
[2:03:04] talking about some of our concerns. I
[2:03:07] think it's quite clear that invasion of
[2:03:09] privacy is not a public benefit to the
[2:03:11] residents of Redbank. We've heard about
[2:03:13] a lot of the benefits that you're
[2:03:14] espousing, but invasion of privacy is
[2:03:16] certainly, I think we'll all agree, is
[2:03:18] not a benefit to anyone in the town
[2:03:20] >> to invade anybody's privacy.
[2:03:21] >> Correct.
[2:03:21] >> Well, I think the point is that a lot of
[2:03:23] the third parties that you're dealing
[2:03:25] with arguably are, right? They're
[2:03:28] tracking your phone.
[2:03:29] >> It's
[2:03:29] >> there's a circular kind of advertising
[2:03:31] going on here. It's not the billboard,
[2:03:33] it's the other it's the other third
[2:03:34] party and everyone's doing it.
[2:03:35] >> Well, it was with it was by consent.
[2:03:38] >> I understand somebody clicked the
[2:03:40] consent when they signed up or whatever.
[2:03:42] But again, this is not specific to the
[2:03:44] billboard use, which is what we're here
[2:03:46] for. You're talking about a much bigger
[2:03:49] issue that's plaguing the world as
[2:03:52] opposed to this particular use at this
[2:03:55] location.
[2:03:56] >> I understand, but I want to finish my
[2:03:57] question to the witness or, you know, to
[2:03:59] the resident. So, you're in the business
[2:04:01] for 20 years. What parameters or what
[2:04:04] else do you want us to consider? What
[2:04:06] I'm listening, what else can we ask or
[2:04:08] what else can we ask of them? They're willing to take down eight
[2:04:11] faces.
[2:04:13] So
[2:04:14] that seems to be
[2:04:17] pretty good. Um right. Um we have one. I
[2:04:21] guess the question I would have for Miss
[2:04:23] Kimco is what makes this one site eight
[2:04:25] times as valuable? Um so we didn't hear
[2:04:28] that yet.
[2:04:29] >> I can answer that.
[2:04:29] >> But before you answer that, do you have
[2:04:32] you're asking us to be uh cognizant of
[2:04:35] certain parameters and things like that?
[2:04:36] Like what specifically else do you think
[2:04:37] we should be asking her? and and and a
[2:04:39] good so uh I will say uh kind of came
[2:04:43] here last minute bit jetlagged uh for
[2:04:46] different so but then I have not give
[2:04:48] much thought to this ahead of time so I
[2:04:50] was kind of spitball but I think based
[2:04:53] on what I know what I've read about out
[2:04:55] front
[2:04:57] I'm not really that concerned about
[2:04:58] their data collection right now it's
[2:05:00] just more
[2:05:02] stipulating that like they they you know
[2:05:05] actually and again based on New Jersey
[2:05:06] right now they can't go to first party
[2:05:08] data collection because they would my
[2:05:10] understanding is have a whole set of
[2:05:12] like regulations, right?
[2:05:12] >> But we're committing even if the law
[2:05:14] changes we're not going to do it.
[2:05:15] >> Okay. And that's so again I don't have
[2:05:16] but and so
[2:05:17] >> that's what we offered
[2:05:18] >> if if if that's the case then yeah it's
[2:05:20] just kind of like doubling down there
[2:05:22] just you know whether it's the um type
[2:05:25] because the other thing also is if
[2:05:26] they're if they are not sending any data
[2:05:27] to the third part to the third parties
[2:05:29] like if it's it's more it's more kind of
[2:05:33] keeping the status quo as it is. Um,
[2:05:35] that's what I more want to encourage you
[2:05:37] guys to like think about. And if you
[2:05:38] guys already have that all in place,
[2:05:39] then great.
[2:05:40] >> I don't think we do. I mean, what we
[2:05:42] heard a lot is we we asked a lot of
[2:05:43] questions about how do the ads get
[2:05:45] placed? You know, how much lead time do
[2:05:47] you need um before an ad is approved
[2:05:49] before it's shown? But that's all based
[2:05:52] on um today's technology and uh the
[2:05:55] policies of the company right now. But
[2:05:57] the use variance is indefinite. And so I
[2:06:00] think your your point about how does
[2:06:01] technology change over time is
[2:06:03] considered in the use when we're
[2:06:05] considering the variance.
[2:06:06] >> Yeah. Are are you guys keeping any I
[2:06:09] know you're not selling are you keeping
[2:06:10] any first party data or any anything
[2:06:12] else?
[2:06:12] >> Not to my knowledge.
[2:06:13] >> No. And again it's anonymous. And to
[2:06:15] address your question, Mr. Hegno, I
[2:06:17] think that you you you made my point is
[2:06:20] that the type of um
[2:06:23] use of data that Mr. Ramirez is talking
[2:06:26] about where it's targeted to your phone.
[2:06:28] We have eight faces now that out front
[2:06:31] has leases for and could gather all the
[2:06:34] same data for from those very eight
[2:06:37] spaces. Nine spaces, I'm sorry, nine
[2:06:39] faces. So we're going from having nine
[2:06:42] places where we can use third party data
[2:06:44] or anyone could where we're giving up
[2:06:46] any use of that property at all and now
[2:06:49] it's all just being on one. So the
[2:06:51] benefit is is the reduction in the
[2:06:53] number and as far as why a digital is
[2:06:58] more uh lucrative. I believe that Andrew
[2:07:01] could testify because it opens up to a
[2:07:03] much wider array of users.
[2:07:06] >> Correct. Well, it also is more
[2:07:07] affordable for the local advertisers.
[2:07:09] Think of it as like a pizza pie, which
[2:07:11] has always been an example used where
[2:07:13] you buy a slice of pizza or instead of
[2:07:16] buying the whole entire pie for a static
[2:07:18] billboard, you have to buy that entire
[2:07:20] billboard for a set period of time.
[2:07:22] >> Cumulative, excuse my pronunciation, let
[2:07:25] me say it better. Cumulatively,
[2:07:28] when you add up all the slices of pie,
[2:07:30] there's potential for you to earn more
[2:07:32] than there would be for one user to use
[2:07:34] one billboard for a month.
[2:07:36] >> Correct? So that's the distinction as to
[2:07:39] why they're more lucrative,
[2:07:41] >> why you're willing to give up the eight
[2:07:43] and for the one.
[2:07:45] >> Yes.
[2:07:47] And and also just as it goes to the the
[2:07:50] particular suitability, this location is
[2:07:54] a better, more appropriate location for
[2:07:56] the type of advertising because it's in
[2:07:58] the center of your business district on
[2:08:00] a very busy road where some of the other
[2:08:02] billboards might not be in areas as
[2:08:05] appropriate as this one. So that's also
[2:08:07] one of the reasons
[2:08:10] >> one one other thought just came up. Um
[2:08:13] do you guys uh if you can't sell all
[2:08:15] your inventory do you know what happens
[2:08:17] to like the remnant inventory is
[2:08:20] >> saying I didn't understand a question.
[2:08:21] >> Um so and I haven't done an out of home
[2:08:24] buy in a long time but like you guys you
[2:08:26] know you have this many impressions to
[2:08:28] sell this many slots a day a month
[2:08:30] however you're selling it. What happens
[2:08:32] if you don't if you don't sell all the
[2:08:33] inventory? Meaning if there's extra
[2:08:35] slots, yeah,
[2:08:36] >> I think they get used more for the
[2:08:38] >> for the public service.
[2:08:39] >> Public service.
[2:08:40] >> Is that is that is that purely where it
[2:08:42] goes or could that go like do you guys
[2:08:43] have like like a extended network of
[2:08:45] partners that could then serve ads?
[2:08:47] >> Not to my knowledge. No,
[2:08:49] >> I would speaking to the
[2:08:51] >> Sorry, not not to my knowledge. I would
[2:08:53] just dig in there in case there is
[2:08:56] uh there's a ton of um just examples of
[2:08:59] advertisers
[2:09:00] having their ads appear on and this is
[2:09:02] not out of homes is like on the internet
[2:09:04] and stuff like that being p being thrown
[2:09:06] onto like what they call remnant
[2:09:07] inventory stuff that was not sold and
[2:09:09] being on like you know gambling sites
[2:09:10] and stuff that they didn't want to be on
[2:09:12] and so I don't quite know what the
[2:09:14] equivalent could be here other than kind
[2:09:16] of reselling the space that your sales
[2:09:18] team wasn't able to sell something going
[2:09:21] up
[2:09:21] >> that would be given away that would be
[2:09:22] giving away valuable advertising space
[2:09:25] for free and it would devalue.
[2:09:27] >> It's not giving it away. You guys just
[2:09:29] sell it at a big discount like somebody
[2:09:30] else sells it for you. It's like this.
[2:09:32] And so I don't I I I'm not I don't know
[2:09:33] if you guys do that. If the sales team
[2:09:35] does that, you probably could put
[2:09:37] something in there that Red Bank gets
[2:09:38] whatever unsold inventory on top of the
[2:09:41] 12 and a half% if if it happens.
[2:09:43] >> That that doesn't happen that there is
[2:09:45] no discounted ad if it's not sold. It
[2:09:47] either goes to the community service
[2:09:49] >> or they run each ad that they already
[2:09:52] have for a few more seconds.
[2:09:54] >> Okay.
[2:09:54] >> To fill up the instead of eight ads,
[2:09:56] it's six.
[2:09:57] >> Yeah.
[2:09:57] >> Not not more seconds. Sorry, Jen. To
[2:09:59] clarify, it's just instead of running
[2:10:01] the it's 8second ads, but instead of
[2:10:03] eight advertisers, it's just the six
[2:10:05] that you know that have that have been
[2:10:07] sold.
[2:10:07] >> I'm sorry. I meant that they get each ad
[2:10:09] gets longer time, not in that increment.
[2:10:13] >> That's it. Yeah. I mean, um, I can stop
[2:10:16] and talk for a long time.
[2:10:20] >> I have just one question.
[2:10:22] >> Oh, sorry.
[2:10:23] >> One quick question. This proposed
[2:10:25] billboard has two sides, correct?
[2:10:28] >> Correct.
[2:10:28] >> Now, will both sides always show the
[2:10:30] same ad?
[2:10:33] >> Uh, no. There are separate ID numbers on
[2:10:35] the billboards. It would be two
[2:10:36] different.
[2:10:37] >> So, there's 16 impressions then, not
[2:10:40] eight. Correct.
[2:10:43] When you say impressions,
[2:10:45] >> well, so there's um eight second in a cycle,
[2:10:52] >> but if there's two sides,
[2:10:54] >> sign gets one of gets that same number,
[2:10:59] >> right? But the now the ads could be
[2:11:01] different. So there could be 16
[2:11:05] different 8second Yes in one cycle. So
[2:11:09] the ad facing east could be different
[2:11:13] than the ad facing west.
[2:11:15] >> Yes. Unless someone purchased it
[2:11:17] >> for both sides. Correct.
[2:11:19] >> Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.
[2:11:23] >> Um I also just had a point of
[2:11:24] clarification. You mentioned earlier
[2:11:26] that there's nothing on the app that on
[2:11:28] the billboard that would actually allow
[2:11:29] you to collect data. But we had said you
[2:11:32] had said earlier that there are video
[2:11:33] cameras for fail safe. So the hardware
[2:11:35] is there right? You do have real time.
[2:11:37] It's facing the actual signed display
[2:11:40] itself. So this is the billboard. The
[2:11:42] camera is camera is facing the actual
[2:11:45] display. So we can monitor the display.
[2:11:47] It's not facing out to the public. It's
[2:11:49] not looking at cars. It's only looking
[2:11:51] at the display to make sure that it's
[2:11:53] running properly and if there's an
[2:11:55] issue, it goes black and we make sure it
[2:11:57] goes black through.
[2:11:58] >> So the use case that was for tampering.
[2:12:00] So if you could see someone tampering.
[2:12:02] So how does that work if it's facing in
[2:12:04] >> tampering the screen? tampering the
[2:12:06] screen.
[2:12:07] >> Yeah, that's not tampering the not not
[2:12:09] tampering any part of the steel
[2:12:11] structure. Okay, it's with regard to
[2:12:13] it's facing the screen to know one is
[2:12:15] someone tampering with the screen. Two,
[2:12:17] is there a glitch on the screen? So,
[2:12:19] does it go all white?
[2:12:20] >> Okay.
[2:12:21] >> Is it is it doing something that would
[2:12:24] need it to be shut off immediately?
[2:12:26] >> Okay. And that's for monitoring the
[2:12:28] screen.
[2:12:29] >> Right. And so when when you had said you
[2:12:31] would be very comfortable with the
[2:12:32] condition that you won't collect like we
[2:12:34] could write into that that those cameras
[2:12:35] stay facing the screen. Okay.
[2:12:38] >> Um similarly there are sensors on the
[2:12:41] sign
[2:12:42] >> for light right.
[2:12:44] >> Yeah. I just want to be clear that we
[2:12:45] had said there was no hardware but there
[2:12:46] is it's just for different use cases.
[2:12:48] >> No no no. So the and I'm sorry we
[2:12:50] weren't clear. There's no
[2:12:52] >> there's no data collection.
[2:12:54] >> Data collector. Correct.
[2:12:55] >> Fair. That's right. data
[2:12:59] » and there won't be you said correct.
[2:13:00] >> Correct.
[2:13:01] >> If the board approved this then yes
[2:13:03] that's correct.
[2:13:04] >> Okay.
[2:13:05] >> And you're guaranteeing there won't be
[2:13:06] on eight other faces in town.
[2:13:09] >> We'll close the public portion of
[2:13:11] questions for this witness. Let's move
[2:13:14] on to your next one.
[2:13:17] >> Thank you board members.
[2:13:19] >> Ready? Let's go.
[2:13:22] >> I should have drank this a little
[2:13:23] slower. Mr. Mass. Well,
[2:13:26] >> okay.
[2:13:27] >> We only got 45 minutes left, so
[2:13:29] >> keep going. All right.
[2:13:32] >> All right. If you could state your name
[2:13:34] and address.
[2:13:39] » Daniel Dockerty, Dynamic Engineering,
[2:13:42] 1904 Main Street, Lake Ko, New Jersey.
[2:13:45] And I didn't spell my last name. Daniel
[2:13:47] Dockerty. D O U G H E R T Y.
[2:13:53] >> Okay. Hey. Do you swear that the
[2:13:54] information and testimony you're about
[2:13:55] to provide will be the truth to the best
[2:13:57] of your knowledge to help you guide God?
[2:13:58] >> Yes, I do.
[2:13:59] >> Okay. And just for the record, you're
[2:14:00] testifying in your capacity as
[2:14:02] >> professional engineer.
[2:14:04] >> And your licenses and certifications and
[2:14:06] qualifications are current, up to date,
[2:14:08] and in good standing.
[2:14:09] >> Yes, they are.
[2:14:10] >> And I believe you testified in round
[2:14:12] one.
[2:14:12] >> I absolutely did.
[2:14:14] >> Okay.
[2:14:14] >> Yeah.
[2:14:15] >> Don't hold that against him, Mr.
[2:14:17] Kennedy.
[2:14:17] >> We have some new.
[2:14:18] >> Okay.
[2:14:19] >> We have some new
[2:14:21] take a moment to Yeah,
[2:14:23] >> Dan, just give the board the benefit of
[2:14:25] your education and how long you've been
[2:14:27] a licensed professional engineer.
[2:14:29] >> Certainly, I'm a graduate of Villanova
[2:14:30] University with a bachelor's in civil
[2:14:32] engineering. I'm a licensed engineer in
[2:14:33] the state of New Jersey since 1999.
[2:14:37] Uh, and I'm a principal partner with
[2:14:39] dynamic engineering consultants since um
[2:14:41] I've been there since 2005.
[2:14:43] >> And you've been accepted as an expert in
[2:14:44] the field of engineering in hundreds of
[2:14:46] hearings throughout
[2:14:47] >> Yeah, I would say over 100 boards
[2:14:48] throughout New Jersey and of course here
[2:14:50] in Redbank.
[2:14:51] >> Great. Thank you. Thank you. So, being
[2:14:54] that we just qualified him as an expert,
[2:14:56] I'm going to turn it over to Dan to have
[2:14:58] him walk through the exhibits that were
[2:15:00] prepared and address some of the
[2:15:01] concerns and then we'll uh go from
[2:15:03] there. So, um I'm going to just
[2:15:05] introduce this exhibit that was already
[2:15:07] uh read in. This is the aerial exhibit
[2:15:10] sheet one of one dated September 1st,
[2:15:14] 2026.
[2:15:15] Um, this is just an aerial photo view of
[2:15:18] the location. Very similar to the uh
[2:15:21] aerial map that's in your plan set. For
[2:15:24] now, I'm really only going to be
[2:15:25] referencing stuff that would be um
[2:15:27] similar to that, but it does change a
[2:15:28] little bit. There are some lighting,
[2:15:30] there's some lighting data on there that
[2:15:32] I'll get into later in my testimony. Uh,
[2:15:34] but for now, I'm really just looking at
[2:15:35] the location of the site. Um, I'm sure
[2:15:38] you're all familiar with the site. Uh
[2:15:40] we're located at 56 Newman Springs Road
[2:15:43] uh block 9701 lot 44. It's the existing
[2:15:47] uh Circus Wine and Liquors building. Um
[2:15:50] and we're proposing a new uh two-faced
[2:15:52] um or dual faced billboard uh LED
[2:15:55] billboard. Um the site's located on the
[2:15:58] north side of Newman Springs Road
[2:16:00] adjacent to the boundary and the border
[2:16:03] with Shrewsbury to the south. We're
[2:16:05] about halfway in between uh Route 35
[2:16:08] Broad Street to the east and on our
[2:16:11] west, the next major intersection would
[2:16:13] be the the Conrail uh Railroad crossing.
[2:16:16] That's the the freight railroad that
[2:16:17] goes across Newman Springs Road. Um and
[2:16:19] then beyond that would be Shrewsbury
[2:16:21] Avenue beyond the the our picture here.
[2:16:23] Uh we're located in the HB Highway
[2:16:26] business zone.
[2:16:28] Um behind us um and to the north is uh
[2:16:32] Calpacy Park. Uh we've got uh ball
[2:16:35] fields there both for school and
[2:16:36] probably municipal use. I would expect
[2:16:38] the school fields uh further to the
[2:16:40] north of Count Basy Park or north side
[2:16:42] of Count Basy Park are lit with uh
[2:16:44] stansions as are the basketball courts
[2:16:47] um and the parking lot that's um to our
[2:16:50] north uh west. um that is a residential
[2:16:54] zone, the RD zone, but it it it is of
[2:16:58] note that our site's probably about 800
[2:17:00] ft or so from the nearest residence,
[2:17:02] which would be um to the northwest, just
[2:17:05] um just past the um to to the west of
[2:17:07] the basketball courts. If you can see
[2:17:09] them on your plan
[2:17:11] to our uh south is um as I mentioned
[2:17:15] before, Shrewsbury. This is the B1 B uh
[2:17:18] business district in Shrewsbury. And
[2:17:20] then behind that, there are some
[2:17:21] residential uses um the R3 and R4 zones
[2:17:25] uh in the neighborhoods that are behind
[2:17:28] um that first block of of commercial
[2:17:30] uses on on Newman Springs Road. And also
[2:17:33] there's some commercial uses on Haden
[2:17:34] Avenue uh south of Newman Springs Road.
[2:17:49] So, I I'll get into this exhibit. I
[2:17:50] wanted to pull down the aerial right
[2:17:52] now. Um,
[2:17:54] so for for the location of our site,
[2:17:57] what we're doing on site is we're taking
[2:18:00] the proposed billboard. It's being put
[2:18:01] and this is just on simply on the site
[2:18:03] plan. It's being put within um a
[2:18:06] landscape island that is immediately
[2:18:09] adjacent to the existing circus wine and
[2:18:12] liquors sign. that island that houses
[2:18:14] that sign is is small. We're just
[2:18:17] expanding that concrete island to the
[2:18:19] west probably by 50 to 100% expansion.
[2:18:23] Um that c that curved concrete island
[2:18:26] still fits within the parking scheme and
[2:18:29] all the striping in the parking lot. So
[2:18:31] there's no impacts to the existing
[2:18:33] parking layout or drives or circulation.
[2:18:36] And all we're really doing is providing
[2:18:37] some space to be able to relocate the
[2:18:39] new sign or sorry relocate the existing
[2:18:41] sign and to place the pole for the new
[2:18:43] sign.
[2:18:43] >> And when you say relocate the existing,
[2:18:45] as you're going to get in through
[2:18:46] testimony, we're not just relocating the
[2:18:48] existing, we're actually reducing it in
[2:18:50] height significantly.
[2:18:51] >> That's correct. Okay.
[2:18:52] >> And that brings me to my next exhibit.
[2:18:55] This is sign detail comparison exhibit
[2:18:58] sheet one of one
[2:18:59] >> and this is the horizontal one. So
[2:19:01] that's A8 Kevin.
[2:19:02] >> That's correct. Thank you.
[2:19:05] And this is dated September 1st, 2026.
[2:19:10] Um,
[2:19:13] I'm embarrassed to say that I'm the
[2:19:15] reason we have to have this exhibit.
[2:19:17] When we submitted the plans to the
[2:19:18] board, um, we misrepresented the
[2:19:21] location of the existing circus sign in
[2:19:24] the detail at the bottom left corner of
[2:19:26] the site of of the site plan set.
[2:19:28] >> Explain to the board what each box is.
[2:19:31] So on the left side is the submitted
[2:19:34] version. So that's going to match what
[2:19:36] you have on the plan set in in in your
[2:19:39] um in your packets. And on the right is
[2:19:42] the reason we prepared this exhibit. And
[2:19:44] the reason is you'll see on the left
[2:19:46] hand side the existing circus sign which
[2:19:49] is grayed back in color and higher than
[2:19:52] the proposed one is shown further into
[2:19:55] the site. Okay. And that's actually the
[2:19:58] opposite of reality. The reality is on
[2:20:01] the right hand side of this sheet that
[2:20:04] the circus um wine and liquors or wine
[2:20:08] and beer and spirits sign is actually
[2:20:09] closer to the left which is where Newman
[2:20:11] Springs Road is and where our property
[2:20:13] frontage is measured front yard set back
[2:20:15] from. And part of the reason for this
[2:20:17] exhibit
[2:20:19] now corrected is that I think it was the
[2:20:21] board planner had questioned where is
[2:20:24] the new circus wine sign and where is
[2:20:27] the billboard sign going in relation not
[2:20:30] only in location to the existing circus
[2:20:34] sign but in size and height and and
[2:20:36] everything else. So the intent of this
[2:20:38] exhibit is to show that the taller
[2:20:40] circus sign is actually going away and
[2:20:42] being replaced with that much smaller
[2:20:43] one.
[2:20:44] >> That's correct. Okay.
[2:20:46] And both the circus sign, the face of
[2:20:50] the new circus sign and the edge of the
[2:20:52] face of the billboard are going to be
[2:20:54] set back. How far? Uh, in numbers?
[2:20:59] >> I I'll start with the existing. So, the
[2:21:00] existing circus sign is about 11.4t
[2:21:04] from the rightway. That's our setback.
[2:21:07] and we'll be um reconstructing that sign
[2:21:11] further into the site to increase the
[2:21:14] setback to 15 feet
[2:21:16] and the sign will be much lower than it
[2:21:19] is right now. Right now it's 33.4 ft
[2:21:21] tall and we'll be lowering it to 20 ft
[2:21:24] tall.
[2:21:24] >> And I think importantly, Dan, typically
[2:21:26] when this board or the planning board
[2:21:28] sees site plans, you're measuring the
[2:21:30] sign distance to the base of the sign.
[2:21:32] Where's the pole going to be? But these
[2:21:34] numbers are not where the pole is going
[2:21:36] to be. the pole's going to be in much
[2:21:37] further because of the type of the sign
[2:21:39] and and the direction in which it will
[2:21:41] address the street. We're actually
[2:21:43] measuring the setback to the edge of the
[2:21:45] face of the sign.
[2:21:47] >> That's correct. That's correct. It's a
[2:21:48] 10x10 sign. It's the same sign face in
[2:21:51] existing conditions that we're going to
[2:21:52] be proposing. So, there's no change in
[2:21:54] the dimensions of the sign or or the
[2:21:56] nature of the size of that panel. Um the
[2:21:59] existing sign you'll see on this
[2:22:00] exhibit, uh again, keep looking at the
[2:22:03] right hand side. um is has four columns
[2:22:06] on it and some cross bracing. Um all of
[2:22:09] that is going to be removed. We're going
[2:22:11] to have a monopol that holds the sign.
[2:22:13] So it'll be more of a traditional and
[2:22:14] less structural kind of look to that
[2:22:16] sign. Um and then as you can see um
[2:22:19] above the sign um we have the proposed
[2:22:22] billboard, the left hand side of the new
[2:22:25] sign and the left hand side of the
[2:22:28] billboard lineup. They both have the
[2:22:30] same setback of 15 ft from the right
[2:22:32] from Newman Springs Road. rightway. The
[2:22:35] proposed sign is um uh 43.5
[2:22:38] ft tall. 436 in
[2:22:41] >> 43.5 ft tall.
[2:22:42] >> That's correct.
[2:22:45] >> And um the dimensions are are appro I'll
[2:22:48] give you approximate dimensions. There's
[2:22:49] very exact numbers on here um that match
[2:22:52] the um outfronts exact numbers, but it's
[2:22:55] about 10 1/2 ft by 36 and 2 1/2 ft. And
[2:23:00] I I'll read that out just for the record
[2:23:02] real quick. So, it's 10 ft 5 and 6364
[2:23:08] in high.
[2:23:11] And the panel is in width 36 ft 2 and
[2:23:17] 4164s
[2:23:19] of an inch wide. Um, again, roughly 106
[2:23:24] x 36 is kind of the way uh outfront
[2:23:27] refers to this panel. Um,
[2:23:31] the total panel area is 380 square uh
[2:23:34] square feet. 380.26
[2:23:36] square feet. Um,
[2:23:38] >> I'm sorry. 38
[2:23:40] >> 26 square feet.
[2:23:44] >> That's a total panel area for each side.
[2:23:52] And just I know it's on the site plan
[2:23:54] and not on this exhibit, but the when we
[2:23:56] talk about the the double-sided and in
[2:23:59] reference to Mr. Light's question,
[2:24:02] the signs are at each at an angle. It's
[2:24:04] a V. So, it's not back to back with each
[2:24:07] other. It's it's the spread V, so it's
[2:24:09] not directly perpendicular
[2:24:14] to the road. Correct.
[2:24:15] >> That's correct. That's correct. It's
[2:24:16] angled slightly to face face the roadway
[2:24:20] oncoming and traffic from both east and
[2:24:22] west. Um I just mentioned there's not
[2:24:26] many site improvements here. I just
[2:24:27] wanted to mention we will have
[2:24:28] electrical service to both separate
[2:24:31] electric service to both the new sign
[2:24:33] and the relocated existing sign. Um
[2:24:36] there's space um on that concrete island
[2:24:39] to allow for any kind of transformer
[2:24:41] that might be required. I would doubt
[2:24:42] that there's going to be a specific
[2:24:43] transformer pad mounted that would be
[2:24:45] necessary, but in any event, there's
[2:24:47] room in that landscape island for it.
[2:24:49] Um, and all of the services will be
[2:24:51] below ground.
[2:24:54] >> Do you use a hardwired internet
[2:24:56] connection for the camera and the
[2:24:58] display?
[2:25:00] >> I would have to
[2:25:00] >> That's a great question.
[2:25:01] >> That is a really good question.
[2:25:10] » Yeah, wire. It's what?
[2:25:12] >> Wireless.
[2:25:17] » Your I'm sorry. Is now a good time to
[2:25:19] ask about the Vshape or should I hold
[2:25:21] that?
[2:25:21] >> Um I'll get I'll get there. So you can
[2:25:23] hold off.
[2:25:23] >> So um I just want to talk really quickly
[2:25:26] about the modules. You you probably
[2:25:27] heard a little bit about this um from Mr. Arve. Um the the sign panel is
[2:25:33] made up of uh modules that together make
[2:25:36] up all of the the full sign. Um, and
[2:25:39] each one has numerous LED elements in
[2:25:43] it, light elements, like you know, you
[2:25:45] would see on your oldfashioned TVs. Your
[2:25:48] old fashioned color TVs, if you went
[2:25:49] really close, you could see the little
[2:25:51] elements. So, it's kind of similar to
[2:25:52] that where each one combines. They put
[2:25:55] out different colors, red, uh, uh, red,
[2:25:58] blue, green, uh, to to represent
[2:26:01] combinations that give you that shape,
[2:26:03] just like on a television set back then.
[2:26:05] Um, the modules themselves are
[2:26:06] replaceable. out. Sometimes, you know,
[2:26:08] there might be a a prop one placed
[2:26:11] without the whole screen coming out. Um,
[2:26:13] in the rows of the LEDs, there's louvers
[2:26:18] on the tops of the LED elements. And
[2:26:21] what that does is it reduces the sky
[2:26:23] glow that would come from the LEDs. It's
[2:26:26] like a on a hat for reverse for a visor
[2:26:29] on a hat to keep the rays or the the
[2:26:32] light from going up and and going into
[2:26:34] the sky. That's something that's a dark
[2:26:36] sky you know benefit um that's always in
[2:26:39] there on all these in this in addition
[2:26:42] we have narrow view technology on this
[2:26:46] the
[2:26:48] have kind of like blinders on a horse um
[2:26:51] to keep the conision of light spreading
[2:26:54] from the panel confined um this one is
[2:26:58] um I believe the 25 degree narrow view
[2:27:01] the one we g we showed in previous
[2:27:04] application was a 30°ree. They've now
[2:27:06] developed a 25 degree which we're using.
[2:27:08] Um, and you'll see that in in the next
[2:27:10] exhibit. I'll talk more about that as
[2:27:12] well as the shape.
[2:27:19] So, this exhibit is lighting plan and
[2:27:22] sign view angle exhibit
[2:27:25] >> and that one is A10
[2:27:30] >> sheet one of one dated September 1st,
[2:27:33] 2026.
[2:27:38] Now, this this exhibit has been has a
[2:27:40] lot of data on it. You'll see in front
[2:27:42] of you there's a lot of numbers. You can
[2:27:43] ignore the numbers right now in the
[2:27:44] grid. Um,
[2:27:47] basically what this is showing is how
[2:27:49] the light is projected from each of the
[2:27:52] panels. We're oriented the same where
[2:27:54] we've got east to our right and west to
[2:27:57] our left. And you could see that the the
[2:28:00] cone of of of light as it's being thrown
[2:28:03] from the panels is angled slightly and
[2:28:06] that's and that's a result of that
[2:28:08] Vshape. So it's it's a shallow V. It's
[2:28:11] not a you know it's not a deep wide open
[2:28:12] V. It's it's very shallow. Um there's
[2:28:15] only a slight difference. It's very
[2:28:17] typical for what you see on a road where
[2:28:19] there's not a curve where you're trying
[2:28:21] to advertise to a direction that's then
[2:28:24] turning and then another direction and
[2:28:25] then that V flattens out. Yeah, that V is actual the visibility of the
[2:28:30] sign.
[2:28:32] >> No, well, I'm talking about the V of the
[2:28:34] sign itself. Right. Right.
[2:28:36] >> And and and the cones the cones kind of
[2:28:39] are are showing you that the way they're
[2:28:41] not perfectly symmetrical and lined up
[2:28:43] and they're aimed towards the road.
[2:28:44] That's a result of that V. And if you
[2:28:46] look in closely, you can see the actual
[2:28:47] line work of the structure of the V. So,
[2:28:49] I'm not sure if that answered your V
[2:28:50] question. You can hit me with with your
[2:28:52] question now if you
[2:28:53] >> Sure. Yeah. Mine was more uh procedural,
[2:28:57] I guess you'd say, because we have a
[2:29:00] part of our ordinance for signs does not
[2:29:03] allow for um a Vshape, right? Says the
[2:29:06] signs if it has two faces, they have to
[2:29:07] be parallel. And so I just want I guess
[2:29:10] maybe not a question for you, maybe for
[2:29:11] a town engineer. Are are we uh seeking a
[2:29:14] bulk variance for this tonight?
[2:29:17] Okay.
[2:29:22] Um I don't not the they're seeking bulk
[2:29:25] variances but not for the V that you're
[2:29:29] talking about
[2:29:30] >> because those sign ordinances are made
[2:29:32] for the commercial signs that advertise
[2:29:35] for the business. There are no
[2:29:36] regulations that apply to billboards as
[2:29:39] a principal use. So
[2:29:43] again, as it relates to requirements for
[2:29:47] use that isn't permitted under price
[2:29:49] behards
[2:29:52] were not uh intended to regulate it
[2:29:55] because it's not a permitted use. So
[2:29:57] they are subsumed within the uh variance
[2:30:01] the use variance if it was granted.
[2:30:05] If they're subsumed, then do we I why do
[2:30:08] we have any bulk variances on that we're
[2:30:10] considering tonight?
[2:30:14] » Because I believe that the variances
[2:30:16] that we're seeking are relative to at
[2:30:19] least the lighting on is relative to
[2:30:21] general lighting standards, not just
[2:30:23] signage. But again, out of an abundance
[2:30:26] of caution, because I know Kevin, we
[2:30:28] notice for them, but from a legal
[2:30:30] perspective and I think you'd agree that
[2:30:32] technically they are subsumed within the
[2:30:35] variance because the sign regulations
[2:30:37] were never intended to regulate
[2:30:38] billboards since billboards aren't
[2:30:40] permitted.
[2:30:41] >> Yeah. I mean, so let's just say we're
[2:30:43] talking about a veterary.
[2:30:46] So let's just say we were talking about
[2:30:48] a veterary use and our ordinance would
[2:30:50] say if you're going to have a veterary
[2:30:52] use you have to have a setback of X uh
[2:30:55] and and so because the billboards are
[2:30:57] not permitted we don't have the bulk
[2:30:59] regulation so it is I mean it's still a
[2:31:01] high standard because they have to
[2:31:02] satisfy the use variance but they are
[2:31:06] typically subsumed into the whole
[2:31:09] overall application because there are no
[2:31:11] specifically permitted requirements for
[2:31:13] a billboard because billboards are not
[2:31:15] permitted And similarly, the way that
[2:31:17] we're considered a principal use as
[2:31:20] opposed to an accessory use, we were
[2:31:21] held to the standards of principal
[2:31:23] structure. So there's all kinds of
[2:31:25] different mixed regulations. Um, but
[2:31:28] again to quote Kevin, out of an
[2:31:31] abundance of caution, should the board
[2:31:33] want to dot every eye and cross every
[2:31:34] tea should they approve this,
[2:31:38] certainly you could say that you could
[2:31:40] call out and recognize that it doesn't
[2:31:41] conform to that sign requirement even
[2:31:44] though not designed for this type of
[2:31:45] sign.
[2:31:49] » Okay, I think I understand.
[2:31:55] Okay. So, um just referring back to the
[2:31:57] exhibit, um what we've plotted on here
[2:32:01] um are the design light levels in that
[2:32:05] grid. Those are the small numbers that
[2:32:07] appear throughout the sheet. And we've
[2:32:09] provided um isolux um lines which are
[2:32:14] basically like contour lines but for
[2:32:15] lighting levels. So where you would have
[2:32:18] contour lines on a grading plan to
[2:32:19] represent elevations, we have isol lines
[2:32:22] on our plan to represent the light, the
[2:32:25] level of light. Um
[2:32:29] I I forget if this was under Mr. Arve's
[2:32:31] testimony. So the way the sign functions
[2:32:35] is that it senses the ambient uh light
[2:32:39] whether it's the middle of the day or
[2:32:41] the middle of the night. um and it
[2:32:43] adjusts the brightness of the sign
[2:32:45] accordingly. During the day when you
[2:32:47] have very bright conditions, sun's
[2:32:50] shining, um the sign will be at its
[2:32:53] brightest uh to compete with the
[2:32:56] surrounding elements. I like to I
[2:32:59] usually see those signs when I do see
[2:33:02] them during the day. They it's hard
[2:33:04] sometimes it's hard to even tell that
[2:33:05] they're LED because they're appearing
[2:33:08] like a surface because they're
[2:33:10] appropriately lit like a surface would
[2:33:12] be lit by the sunlight. Um and that's
[2:33:15] the way they kind of manage those
[2:33:16] levels. um if the if it's a more cloudy
[2:33:20] day that that's it's going to dim
[2:33:22] appropriately because the the owner out
[2:33:25] front does not want the sign to be too
[2:33:28] bright for the viewer. They want it your
[2:33:31] the the sign to be visible with the way
[2:33:34] your iris would adjust for the
[2:33:35] surrounding light. And then the same as
[2:33:37] your the dashboard in your car, when you
[2:33:40] get on the car in the car during the
[2:33:41] day, you might not even realize it. the
[2:33:43] dashboard's at its brightest and then
[2:33:45] when uh the sun goes down, my car has a
[2:33:48] little sensor on the dashboard. All of a
[2:33:50] sudden, it goes to dim because it
[2:33:51] recognizes it's night and and it's not
[2:33:53] trying to compete and blow your blow
[2:33:55] your eyes out with brightness.
[2:33:57] >> Um could you very similar
[2:34:00] >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I don't mean to
[2:34:02] interrupt, but sometimes we move on and
[2:34:03] then I forget my question. So, you were
[2:34:05] just talking about that you said at its
[2:34:07] brightest and so I was asking could you
[2:34:08] quantify that range? What's the
[2:34:09] brightest and what is it um down to? But
[2:34:12] what it what it does I'll I'll have more
[2:34:14] on
[2:34:15] >> that particular in a in a few minutes
[2:34:17] >> few minutes but um
[2:34:19] >> that's we're going to get to the
[2:34:20] luminance and the hits and that's where
[2:34:22] that's more appropriate. So, because
[2:34:24] we're um measuring the ambient light,
[2:34:29] measuring how much light is hitting a
[2:34:32] sensor that's on the sign from the sky,
[2:34:35] from from surrounding lights, if you're
[2:34:38] in a situation where you've got a a low
[2:34:40] sign, other lights might be lighting
[2:34:42] that at night. Um,
[2:34:44] >> does each side of the sign have its own
[2:34:47] ambient sensor?
[2:34:50] Is there mult?
[2:34:53] >> No, there's just one for both sides.
[2:34:56] >> So, if the sun is setting in the west
[2:35:00] and hitting the billboard on the west
[2:35:03] side, it will make the light brighter.
[2:35:09] So, if you're driving west and you're
[2:35:11] seeing the east sign, that's going to be
[2:35:14] >> well, well, it's the sensor faces up, so
[2:35:18] it's it's not going to read like a like
[2:35:20] a spotlight hitting it and then changing
[2:35:22] the brightness on the sign. It's going
[2:35:24] to measure the ambient light coming down
[2:35:28] that you would read on a surface.
[2:35:29] >> Okay. So, as the sun as the sun moves
[2:35:32] east to west and this sign faces east
[2:35:35] and west,
[2:35:36] >> correct?
[2:35:37] um one side is going to be appear darker
[2:35:40] than the other.
[2:35:41] >> Yeah. So, so if you were in a sunset
[2:35:44] scenario, okay, the the levels are going
[2:35:47] to be coming down. All right. Um but
[2:35:50] >> Yeah. Or the sunrise scenario,
[2:35:51] >> right? And and and there might be during
[2:35:54] that, you know, small amount of time,
[2:35:56] there might be although the signs are
[2:35:58] lit the same, the backlighting will be
[2:36:01] different because one side's the east
[2:36:02] and one side's the west and that's
[2:36:03] sunset or sunrise. So we don't control
[2:36:06] how that backlighting occurs or or or
[2:36:10] gauge the sign that way. It's based upon
[2:36:11] the ambient light that's available to a
[2:36:13] sensor. Um so um and and the reason I
[2:36:17] mention that is and and that's why we go
[2:36:19] into foot candles. That's why measure by
[2:36:20] foot candles. So what we do is we put
[2:36:23] the R sign three foot candles higher
[2:36:27] than the ambient light. And that that's
[2:36:29] kind of the sweet spot to be able to
[2:36:31] view the sign. Um, and the reason we use
[2:36:35] foot candles is because that's what we
[2:36:36] measure. So, we're measuring foot
[2:36:38] candles in our sensor and then we adjust
[2:36:41] the brightness of the sign for that foot
[2:36:43] candle level. Um, and I'll have more
[2:36:46] about that later. Um,
[2:36:48] >> but essentially, and I just want to
[2:36:49] clarify, the foot candles that you're
[2:36:52] showing on this plan are going to be
[2:36:54] consistent, meaning our sign is able to
[2:36:58] adjust to ensure that we're never
[2:37:00] exceeding the foot candles that you're
[2:37:02] showing.
[2:37:03] >> Right. Right. This this is and and this
[2:37:05] is a kind of like a capture in time of
[2:37:08] dark. Okay. And these numbers are we're
[2:37:10] capturing the.3
[2:37:13] and and the relative numbers associated
[2:37:16] with that. Um and and for that reason
[2:37:19] like our three isolux line is this one
[2:37:22] out here. It's the it's the kind of the
[2:37:25] middle dashed line. The reason we use
[2:37:27] that line is because it's the three
[2:37:29] over. So that's kind of like it helps
[2:37:32] describe one sign to another, one uh
[2:37:35] parabola display to another another
[2:37:38] display. If you get to the end of the
[2:37:40] parabola, and if you guys knew how hard
[2:37:42] of a time I had saying that over the
[2:37:44] last six months, you've done very well
[2:37:45] >> that I nailed it just now. When you get
[2:37:48] to the end of that, it's zero.
[2:37:50] >> That's correct.
[2:37:51] >> So, if it's not within that parabola or
[2:37:54] triangle on either side, then it is zero
[2:37:58] foot candles coming from
[2:38:00] >> that. That's correct. So, that mean you
[2:38:02] can't see it.
[2:38:02] >> Just to correct one thing, I misspoke.
[2:38:05] It wasn't priced vimei, Kevin. So in
[2:38:07] case you look it up for me, it's the
[2:38:09] Paleo versus North Brunswick.
[2:38:12] >> Thank you.
[2:38:13] >> Price has to do with sight suitability.
[2:38:15] Paleo has to do with subsuming the bulk
[2:38:18] variances in the use. I apologize.
[2:38:20] >> Got it.
[2:38:21] >> So are you saying outside of the
[2:38:23] furthest
[2:38:25] um shape you won't see?
[2:38:28] >> No, you'll see.
[2:38:29] >> Okay. So So I'll have more on that. So
[2:38:31] this is
[2:38:31] >> Wait, let me just lay first and explain
[2:38:33] it. Sure. When we're talking about foot
[2:38:35] candles, we're talking about light
[2:38:36] that's hitting the ground.
[2:38:39] So part of your ordinance requires
[2:38:42] certain foot candles based on lighting.
[2:38:44] So what we're saying is in a vacuum,
[2:38:47] this sign will never at when you get to
[2:38:50] that edge, there'll be no light hitting
[2:38:53] the ground from our sign. That's what we
[2:38:55] mean. We're going to get to the
[2:38:56] visibility and the knits and everything
[2:38:58] else, but again, there's two metrics.
[2:39:00] There's foot candles on the ground and
[2:39:02] intensity of the light coming at the si
[2:39:04] coming out of the sign at the face of
[2:39:06] the sign. Those are the two standards.
[2:39:09] We're only talking about one right now.
[2:39:11] And and the fun part's going to be is
[2:39:14] when we start talking about the
[2:39:15] calculation for how nets convert to foot
[2:39:18] candles. But we'll wait because it's,
[2:39:20] you know,
[2:39:20] >> and and just just a quick clarification,
[2:39:22] it's over ambient. So the light will be
[2:39:26] on. There'll still be light hitting the
[2:39:27] ground, but that some of that's ambient
[2:39:29] light. We're we're not projecting more
[2:39:32] than the ambient light. So So there is a
[2:39:34] project projection of light, but it's
[2:39:36] just not beyond the ambient light.
[2:39:38] >> Which is the same thing as saying in a
[2:39:40] >> No. No. Yeah. If you're in a field
[2:39:41] somewhere, the ambient light is zero. So
[2:39:43] it's really the same thing.
[2:39:45] >> Exactly. So what we did was we took
[2:39:47] >> Wait. I'm sorry.
[2:39:49] >> Yeah.
[2:39:54] One of the bulk variances is
[2:39:57] >> exceeding 1.5 at the property line.
[2:39:59] >> Correct. And you are at
[2:40:01] >> Okay, I'll I'll tell you right now.
[2:40:02] >> Didn't get there yet.
[2:40:03] >> Okay. All right. Because you're talking
[2:40:05] about.3 foot candles over ambient light,
[2:40:09] but you're really
[2:40:12] at 10 seven, you know. So, can you
[2:40:14] >> So, that that's exactly where I was
[2:40:15] going to go next. So, again, we're using
[2:40:17] foot candles. It might be kind of
[2:40:19] familiar when you're talking about your
[2:40:20] regular site plans and their lighting
[2:40:23] designs and you're talking about, you
[2:40:25] know, what's the what it's a question.
[2:40:28] What's the light putting out and is it
[2:40:30] adequately lighting a site? And it's a
[2:40:32] set standard. There's not photo cells.
[2:40:34] It's on or off, right? Um and again, a
[2:40:37] reminder that's measuring the light that
[2:40:39] hits the ground and reflects off and is
[2:40:42] captured by a meter. That's how you
[2:40:44] measure that. Okay. Um, it's not what
[2:40:48] you look at a light. If you go
[2:40:49] underneath any of those le those those
[2:40:51] light fixtures and look straight up,
[2:40:54] that that has nothing to do with the
[2:40:56] brightness that's on the correct.
[2:40:58] >> Um, so
[2:41:00] um, for the ordinance requirement and a
[2:41:02] half at the property line, what we're
[2:41:05] projecting is what happens in the dark
[2:41:08] at the lowest point of the day when
[2:41:10] we're projecting.3
[2:41:12] over ambient. We're showing where we're
[2:41:15] 1.5 over ambient.
[2:41:19] So if it was completely dark, we're
[2:41:22] showing you where we would be showing
[2:41:24] 1.5.
[2:41:25] >> That makes sense.
[2:41:26] >> Same Jackie as if if I'm trying to give
[2:41:29] you a parking lot light. When you give
[2:41:32] what the foot candles are, it's really
[2:41:35] over ambient because it doesn't take
[2:41:37] into consideration what other lights are
[2:41:38] going to be there. So again,
[2:41:40] >> correct. if there's spillage from
[2:41:42] another site like like what
[2:41:45] >> candles there but we're only giving a
[2:41:48] certain amount to it.
[2:41:49] >> So again I think it the way you're
[2:41:51] describing it was confusing to me and I
[2:41:53] think it's becoming confusing here.
[2:41:56] >> The light sensor reading based on light
[2:41:59] coming from our sign at the property
[2:42:02] line is what? At the highest
[2:42:05] >> at the highest point
[2:42:06] >> at the at the property line
[2:42:07] >> the variance. So it's it's at at its
[2:42:10] highest it's
[2:42:18] yeah 10.6 or 10.7.
[2:42:21] So and that's where I wanted to point
[2:42:23] you to the lines that we added to the
[2:42:26] drawing. We provided a 1.5 line. It's
[2:42:29] the solid line that's um closest the
[2:42:32] solid line that's closest to the sign
[2:42:34] panel. Not the the there's a dash line
[2:42:36] in between the two. So, um, that I'm
[2:42:40] sorry, sorry, it's the dash line closest
[2:42:43] to the panel is the 1.5 line.
[2:42:46] And you can see that area. It come it
[2:42:49] comes out into Newman Springs Road,
[2:42:51] comes back to the sign, goes back out
[2:42:53] into Newman Springs Road, and then it
[2:42:55] goes to our western property neighbor.
[2:42:56] It's the parking lot for the car
[2:42:58] dealership. So, those are the locations
[2:43:00] where we're greater than the 1.5.
[2:43:03] That's part of of the performance
[2:43:05] standards. So, and as it relates to
[2:43:08] exceeding the 1.5, it's not having an
[2:43:10] impact on it's not having a negative
[2:43:13] impact on the neighborhood because it's
[2:43:14] either lighting a roadway
[2:43:17] or it's lighting the parking lot.
[2:43:19] >> Parking lot by their own security
[2:43:22] lighting and stuff. Again, the
[2:43:24] dealerships
[2:43:26] that most of it
[2:43:28] now,
[2:43:32] » well, I would say
[2:43:34] I not
[2:43:37] But it would depend on whether there's
[2:43:39] street lighting
[2:43:46] and and Yeah. Well, and I'll add this
[2:43:48] also. Our photo cells are
[2:43:54] lower than those lights.
[2:43:56] >> Our photo cells are at 43 feet high.
[2:44:00] So, they're receiving ambient light at
[2:44:03] 43 feet. any light source that's
[2:44:07] downfacing, flood lights, street lights
[2:44:10] that are lower than 483 feet aren't
[2:44:13] being seen by our photo cell. And
[2:44:15] therefore, our lights not being
[2:44:17] increased in in brightness, which makes
[2:44:20] sense because we want the ambient light
[2:44:23] where the sign is to dictate how bright
[2:44:26] the sign is. But the ambient light
[2:44:28] that's on the ground to the ground,
[2:44:31] we're we're using that to dimmer sign,
[2:44:35] but that's not what we're do. That's not
[2:44:38] the result. So, we'll have a dimmer sign
[2:44:42] based upon the ambient light of at night
[2:44:45] and during a day it won't.
[2:44:52] So, it's pretty conservative from that
[2:44:54] nature when you have an elevated sign
[2:44:56] like that.
[2:45:02] Um, so then the next item I wanted to
[2:45:05] point out is the outer limit on this
[2:45:07] exhibit and that's where we go to zero
[2:45:10] on foot candles. So there's no projected
[2:45:14] increase on ambient light at that whole
[2:45:17] perimeter
[2:45:18] >> and that means no projected increase on
[2:45:20] any residential property.
[2:45:21] >> That's correct.
[2:45:24] And that was the second part of that
[2:45:25] design standard was you can't have more
[2:45:28] than 0.1 on any residential property and
[2:45:30] at all residential properties our foot
[2:45:33] candles would be zero.
[2:45:34] >> And so I'll go back to the aerial
[2:45:36] exhibit
[2:45:38] and this is where the important part of
[2:45:41] this exhibit for this discussion occurs.
[2:45:43] That in in yellow that dashed line the
[2:45:46] two cones there that's the same exact
[2:45:48] line that we had on the other plan.
[2:45:50] That's the 00 line. And so you could see
[2:45:53] the distance um to neighboring
[2:45:55] properties. Um I think we're probably
[2:45:59] uh to to the nearest Redbank property is
[2:46:02] over 800 ft. Um I think we're probably
[2:46:05] about 600 feet to the nearest um
[2:46:08] residential property in Shrewsbury.
[2:46:11] Um so you know we we meet all those
[2:46:14] standards. Again we're be below zero.
[2:46:30] Are you done?
[2:46:31] >> No.
[2:46:32] >> Don't.
[2:46:33] >> He's checking his notes to make sure he
[2:46:35] didn't leave anything out relative to
[2:46:36] that section before moving on to the
[2:46:38] next one.
[2:46:38] >> Okay. I just was curious about the
[2:46:40] pause.
[2:46:43] >> Was I Was I correct on that? Yes.
[2:46:50] So there's there's one more for standard
[2:46:52] I was mentioned. Um the first one was
[2:46:57] for glare that was the the 1.5 at the
[2:47:00] property and then the 0.1 and then
[2:47:02] there's a lighting and illumination.
[2:47:04] It's actually in the next section and it
[2:47:06] talks about not exceeding.5 foot candles
[2:47:09] at the property line. Again it's the
[2:47:11] same result. This requires 0.5. Um, I'm
[2:47:15] not sure why it differs diff differs
[2:47:16] from the glare section, but it is in the
[2:47:18] performance standards. So, we wouldn't
[2:47:20] be meeting that either for those same
[2:47:22] reasons.
[2:47:26] » Okay. So, as requested both in um the
[2:47:29] planning and engineering review and also
[2:47:32] um informal questions that were
[2:47:34] mentioned to us was um compliance with
[2:47:38] dark sky
[2:47:40] uh parameters. The um Dark Sky
[2:47:43] Association is a a private organization
[2:47:48] that supports
[2:47:50] what it kind of what it says, dark sky,
[2:47:52] viewing of constellations, limiting of
[2:47:54] light pollution, etc. Um it's not a
[2:47:57] regulatory agency. It's not a
[2:47:58] jurisdictional element. It's an entity
[2:48:01] that sets standards for for multiple
[2:48:03] things. Um and one of the things they do
[2:48:05] discuss is sign is is LED billboards
[2:48:08] specifically.
[2:48:10] Um, and this is where it's it's a little
[2:48:13] confusing. I if I lose you, feel free to
[2:48:16] ask a question because it gets into some
[2:48:18] science. Um, my parents would both be
[2:48:22] proud. Um, so I me I explained before we
[2:48:27] have foot candles because that's easy.
[2:48:29] The light hits a table, the light hits a
[2:48:31] meter, it's a foot candle. And then I
[2:48:33] talked about but when you look up at the
[2:48:35] light element, that's a totally
[2:48:36] different thing, right? It's like it's
[2:48:38] like a spotlight versus the light that
[2:48:41] the spotlight is throwing. Right now,
[2:48:45] the difference in units in that and the
[2:48:48] what we what we call illuminance is the
[2:48:52] foot candles. Then what's called
[2:48:54] luminance is the focus and the
[2:48:57] brightness of the source. And it's
[2:49:00] measured at the source. It's not
[2:49:02] measured at a different distance. It's
[2:49:04] measured at the source. But what you can
[2:49:06] do is control how it spreads. Okay. So
[2:49:12] the um signs like these they and oh
[2:49:16] sorry that unit is called a knit. That's
[2:49:19] the standard unit for this. It's I've
[2:49:22] one candel
[2:49:25] and that's a knit. Whatever whatever a
[2:49:27] knit is.
[2:49:27] >> It's how bright it is.
[2:49:28] when you're
[2:49:30] looking at the light source.
[2:49:31] >> Right at and you're in front of it.
[2:49:33] >> It's measured at the light source.
[2:49:36] Mr.
[2:49:37] >> Nit Nit.
[2:49:38] >> That's interesting because it's not an
[2:49:39] anagram for anything. So, I'm not sure
[2:49:41] where that came from.
[2:49:46] » And they say, "Nick,
[2:49:47] >> flesh wound, I tell you."
[2:49:50] >> Um
[2:49:54] >> so uh
[2:49:57] Dark Sky has some standards for that and
[2:49:59] I'm going to work into that. The first
[2:50:01] thing they do, one of the things they
[2:50:02] set forth is they they have a whole kind
[2:50:04] of rec
[2:50:08] what they call EMC's, electronic message
[2:50:11] centers, and and they it even says
[2:50:13] billboards are included in this. They're
[2:50:15] kind of prepped for having these kind
[2:50:17] they even write sample ordinances for
[2:50:20] towns about if they wanted to adopt them
[2:50:22] and help them with that. Um, but what
[2:50:25] they recognize is that different levels
[2:50:28] of activity
[2:50:30] requirements
[2:50:33] for restricting light. Um, so they rate
[2:50:36] their lighting zones LZ0 through LZ4.
[2:50:40] So LZ4 would be the busiest kind of
[2:50:43] location you might have where you're not
[2:50:46] really concerned with light trespass,
[2:50:48] >> like Time Square.
[2:50:49] >> Well, maybe not that. I think time
[2:50:50] square LZ12 because I went there the
[2:50:52] other day and I thought it was broad
[2:50:53] daylight.
[2:50:54] >> Um
[2:50:55] >> but you know it it it it raised for for
[2:50:59] normal not times square that LZ4 would
[2:51:01] be an urban very high a lot of
[2:51:05] operations and then LZ3210
[2:51:08] LZ0 is basically there's no light um and
[2:51:11] therefore you'd have more restrictions
[2:51:12] on light trespass. Um so I I qualify
[2:51:16] this as an LZ3. I'll read you the
[2:51:18] definition. um moderately high ambient
[2:51:22] lighting areas of human activity where
[2:51:24] the vision of human residents and users
[2:51:27] is adapted to moderately high light
[2:51:29] levels. This is a recommended default
[2:51:32] zone for business districts in large
[2:51:35] cities. Okay. The next level down from
[2:51:38] that
[2:51:39] >> well let's talk about the level that
[2:51:40] we're in. So let's
[2:51:41] >> L3.
[2:51:42] >> Yeah. L3. So
[2:51:43] >> again, and I I respect that you want to
[2:51:45] give some context, but this is not a
[2:51:47] primer on dark sky compliance.
[2:51:50] >> Well, to be clear, it's your opinion
[2:51:51] that it's L3, right? Dark Sky has not
[2:51:53] come in and said Red Bank is high.
[2:51:55] >> A couple things, and again, I'm not sure
[2:51:57] why we're going into this level of
[2:51:58] detail as to an organization that sets
[2:52:01] standards that are not enforceable and
[2:52:03] have not been adopted by the bureau. So
[2:52:05] again, this is just for context, but
[2:52:08] again, it's based on their regula, their
[2:52:12] standards. My expert is characterizing
[2:52:15] it as level three, but again, we're not
[2:52:19] bound to it in that it's not been
[2:52:22] adopted by the burrow. So, so the the
[2:52:24] long short answer about dark sky is is
[2:52:27] there's there's no requirements put upon
[2:52:29] this applicant or any applicant on dark
[2:52:31] sky because it's not adopted by the by
[2:52:33] any master plan to adopt a dark sky
[2:52:37] strategy and we have to consider the
[2:52:38] master plan and a use fair. I
[2:52:40] >> I just want I want we want to be fair
[2:52:41] and address it thoroughly for you
[2:52:43] because the question was asked both in
[2:52:44] the review letter and separately. So, we
[2:52:46] >> on fairness that's what we're here to
[2:52:47] do, right? address well
[2:52:49] >> does the use variance have a negative
[2:52:51] impact on the master plan or the
[2:52:53] ordinances?
[2:52:54] >> Well, no. It's whether or not it has a
[2:52:55] substantially negative impact that
[2:52:57] outweighs all the benefits. It's not in
[2:52:59] a vacuum and any variance has a negative
[2:53:01] impact and it it's not does it have does
[2:53:05] it have a negative impact on one small
[2:53:07] element
[2:53:08] >> of the master plan? Again, let's talk
[2:53:11] about what our knits are, how much light
[2:53:13] we're producing, and what that
[2:53:15] translates to into foot candles at
[2:53:18] different distances.
[2:53:21] >> So, we're going to focus on the the wind
[2:53:23] of the nets, the daytime amount of the
[2:53:25] knits. As I said before, when the sign's
[2:53:27] at its brightest, nobody really cares
[2:53:29] how bright it is because it's kept at a reasonable level with ambient
[2:53:33] light. It's at night time that you're
[2:53:34] concerned how bright that's going to be.
[2:53:35] So, we focus on on on the low end. Um,
[2:53:39] so our signs produce when they're white
[2:53:43] and at their lowest. So, in other words,
[2:53:45] we've got low ambient light like our
[2:53:46] point.
[2:53:48] We got low ambient light levels. We're
[2:53:50] putting out on a white sign, pure white,
[2:53:54] no no copy at all, is 300 nits.
[2:53:57] >> So, let's just let's stop there for a
[2:54:00] second. So that would be as if we're
[2:54:01] using our, you know, our flashlights
[2:54:03] work on our phones where it just goes
[2:54:04] white. It would just be like the
[2:54:07] flashlight on the phone when you when
[2:54:08] you light up your screen and there's no
[2:54:11] scenario that we would do that because
[2:54:13] if it was all white, there'd be no
[2:54:14] message to be read.
[2:54:15] >> Correct. The the that's all white. Now,
[2:54:19] different colors have different
[2:54:22] illuminance or luminance values just on
[2:54:25] the color itself, even with the same
[2:54:27] power. So, white puts us fourth at the
[2:54:30] most at 300 nits. Um, the next one down
[2:54:34] is green. Green's about 60%
[2:54:38] of the total power draw. So, it's about
[2:54:40] 180 nits.
[2:54:42] >> So, again, that would be as if it was an
[2:54:43] all green with no message.
[2:54:44] >> That's correct. And and the next one
[2:54:47] down is red. All red, no message. That's
[2:54:51] um about 30%. That's 60 nets. And then
[2:54:54] the next one down, the lowest one is
[2:54:56] blue and that's 10%. So that's 30 nits
[2:55:00] on average.
[2:55:01] >> Yeah, it doesn't make sense to
[2:55:03] >> on average. And this is based upon the
[2:55:05] data that Outfront has monitoring their
[2:55:08] power that they send to the signs. On
[2:55:10] average, they're about 30% or about a third of the total max. So of
[2:55:17] the 300, they're at about a third of
[2:55:20] that. They they average about a hundred.
[2:55:22] And that's due to the different colors
[2:55:23] of the copy being on there at their low
[2:55:26] point.
[2:55:29] » The advertisement with the the the the
[2:55:32] illustration and the text is on average
[2:55:36] 100 minutes. That's what you're saying.
[2:55:38] Correct.
[2:55:38] >> And three and 300 is your white like the
[2:55:42] flashlight on your phone.
[2:55:44] >> But typically, so some may be above 100,
[2:55:46] some may be below, but somebody has
[2:55:48] actually looked at this at Outfront.
[2:55:50] You're saying that your your your
[2:55:53] advertisements on average are 100.
[2:55:55] >> Yes. And we're committing to that.
[2:55:56] >> Thank you.
[2:55:58] >> So, we'll go back to Dark Sky.
[2:56:02] with their lighting levels for
[2:56:04] the LZ3.
[2:56:06] Their level recommendation is 80 nits.
[2:56:09] So, we're really very close to that
[2:56:11] ballpark. And that that varies when you
[2:56:15] change groups within Dark Sky to the
[2:56:17] tune of like 100%.
[2:56:19] So, if you go one level down from Dark
[2:56:21] Side, it goes from 80 to 40. If you go
[2:56:23] one level up, it goes from 80 to 160.
[2:56:25] So, it's a pretty it's a pretty um it's
[2:56:29] more of a neighborhood than an exact
[2:56:32] number. And that's the recommendation um
[2:56:35] that that Dark Sky has. And you can see
[2:56:37] we're really in that ballpark already.
[2:56:39] Um and so it kind of makes sense with what Dark Sky is putting out as far
[2:56:44] as what they think is appropriate for
[2:56:45] communication. So, additionally, dark
[2:56:47] sky has different categories for how to
[2:56:52] mitigate any impact irrespective of the
[2:56:54] nit. So, if you can't get down to the 60
[2:56:56] and and realistically,
[2:56:59] I don't know how realistic that is, but
[2:57:01] you can't get down to 60, there's other
[2:57:03] things that they ask you to do by way of
[2:57:05] mitigation. Yeah.
[2:57:06] >> And and and we're doing almost all of
[2:57:08] those. Correct. Then why don't you just
[2:57:10] without reading from dark sky just list
[2:57:14] what those things are.
[2:57:16] >> So these are known as their best
[2:57:17] management practices. It's best to do as
[2:57:20] many of these as you can. One monitoring
[2:57:24] make sure they're monitored 247. If
[2:57:25] there's any issues, if there's any
[2:57:27] malfunctions, it's handled
[2:57:28] >> which is the
[2:57:30] >> Mr. Arvey handled that in his testimony.
[2:57:32] Sensitive area setback. This is relation
[2:57:35] to parks, wildlife refugees.
[2:57:39] etc. where bright lights might impact
[2:57:40] animals or nature centers. We don't have
[2:57:43] any of that in our vicinity. Um the next
[2:57:46] one is um distraction limitation as far
[2:57:50] as how often the changing of copy and
[2:57:52] how the copy is changed. Again, that's
[2:57:54] all set by DOT.
[2:57:56] >> And let me just and let me just point
[2:57:58] out to the board. So these are general
[2:58:00] standards throughout the country. Not
[2:58:03] every state has the same regulations
[2:58:05] that the DOT does. So the DOT enforces
[2:58:08] that in and of itself through its
[2:58:10] regulations. So we meet that not because
[2:58:13] we're trying. We meet that because we
[2:58:15] have to.
[2:58:15] >> Right.
[2:58:17] And the the recommendation is that set a
[2:58:19] minimum, set a maximum, set standards.
[2:58:22] So not only are standards set in New
[2:58:23] Jersey for us, but we follow them. Um
[2:58:27] number four, gradual brightness
[2:58:28] reduction. We're not turning we're not
[2:58:30] suddenly going dimmer from full blast to lower. It's all done through our
[2:58:35] photo cell. The same way nature operates
[2:58:38] gradually gradually on on the
[2:58:40] brightness, the same way our sign will
[2:58:42] be adjusted. Uh size limits. Um this one
[2:58:45] is is kind of like neither here nor
[2:58:47] there. This is really instruction for a
[2:58:49] regulator to set size limits on where
[2:58:52] they think certain sizes would be
[2:58:54] appropriate or inappropriate. So it
[2:58:55] doesn't really apply to us. And um the
[2:58:58] next one is density limits, meaning the
[2:59:00] density of signs and the frequency of
[2:59:01] the electronic signs. And again, as we
[2:59:04] said, that's already handled by DOT.
[2:59:06] There's no there's, you know, we're
[2:59:07] beyond 3,000 ft where no sign could be.
[2:59:09] >> So for every one of those generally
[2:59:11] accepted practices that are within our
[2:59:13] power to comply with, we are complying
[2:59:15] with that.
[2:59:16] >> That's correct.
[2:59:18] Uh, Miss Crimco, we're going to take
[2:59:20] like
[2:59:21] >> Okay,
[2:59:21] >> I'm going to check with the board
[2:59:23] members to to see if we can extend this
[2:59:27] maybe to 10:00, but I want to ask them
[2:59:30] because they're volunteers. They've been
[2:59:32] here sitting here for three and a half
[2:59:34] hours and at some point you lose
[2:59:37] attention to a lot of the details and I
[2:59:39] want to make sure everybody is on board
[2:59:42] with going till 10:00. So, if you give
[2:59:44] us a couple minutes.
[2:59:46] >> Sure. And you you won't be offended if I
[2:59:48] step out of the room for a moment.
[2:59:50] >> You
[2:59:58] wait a minute. We got to do a roll call.
[3:00:03] >> Anor
[3:00:04] >> here.
[3:00:05] >> Raymond Mass
[3:00:06] >> here.
[3:00:07] >> Greg Fitzgerald
[3:00:08] >> here. We
[3:00:09] >> John Gild
[3:00:10] >> here.
[3:00:10] >> Vincent Light
[3:00:11] >> here.
[3:00:12] >> Paul Kagno
[3:00:13] >> here.
[3:00:14] >> Eugene Harowit
[3:00:15] >> here. Chris Havens
[3:00:17] >> here.
[3:00:18] >> Darthy Cerulo
[3:00:20] must have stepped up.
[3:00:21] >> Yeah, she's here.
[3:00:23] >> So, so we we've decided that we're going
[3:00:26] to live finish with this witness and
[3:00:29] then look to carry it to uh the next
[3:00:32] meeting.
[3:00:33] >> Okay. Great.
[3:00:34] >> Because it's just getting getting a
[3:00:36] little crazy.
[3:00:36] >> Understood. So, I'm going to step away
[3:00:38] from the technical for a second. Okay.
[3:00:40] >> I think that that might be Wait, we're
[3:00:43] missing somebody. Shall we?
[3:00:44] >> Yeah, Dorothy.
[3:00:47] back.
[3:00:51] » While we wait, can I ask one quick
[3:00:53] clarifying question?
[3:00:58] » I I would love to. The problem is is if
[3:01:00] she's not here on any part of it.
[3:01:02] >> Yeah, I don't think it I don't think it
[3:01:04] would really matter.
[3:01:06] >> There she is.
[3:01:06] >> Here she come.
[3:01:09] >> Just give it to I'll I'll stay as long
[3:01:11] as you want. I know you guys want to go
[3:01:12] home, but um
[3:01:13] >> I just quick question. Yeah, the
[3:01:14] billboard has two sides and the proposal
[3:01:18] is to give Redbank 12.5% of the signage.
[3:01:22] Is that both sides or one side?
[3:01:26] >> Both sides.
[3:01:27] That's all. Thank you,
[3:01:30] >> Mr. In case you missed that.
[3:01:34] >> And we're not just giving 12 and a half%
[3:01:36] of one of the faces. It's for both of
[3:01:38] the faces. So that's really 25.
[3:01:42] If I could be pedantic, you mean half is
[3:01:45] 25.
[3:01:47] I'm just playing. I know. I'm kidding.
[3:01:52] >> Okay. So, finish.
[3:01:54] >> Yeah. So, just very briefly, and again,
[3:01:55] this was one of the I know one of the
[3:01:57] board members had asked for this, and I
[3:01:59] just want to make sure that we
[3:02:00] referenced it in the testimony. So,
[3:02:03] there's an exhibit that we moved in as
[3:02:04] A18. Those of you that were at the last
[3:02:07] meeting uh previously recognized this.
[3:02:10] Dan, I'm going to just ask you some
[3:02:12] questions and to confirm it. So, um,
[3:02:15] outfront typically will hire a crane
[3:02:19] and
[3:02:21] place it at the site and hold a flag
[3:02:25] down that's 10 ft in that's the same
[3:02:27] height as the billboard sign. Correct.
[3:02:30] >> That's correct.
[3:02:30] >> And they will hang it in the exact
[3:02:32] location that the Let me just get my
[3:02:35] side. That's the southern end of where
[3:02:38] those billboards would be. Yes.
[3:02:40] >> So the the the flag is held exactly in
[3:02:44] the location as to where the billboard
[3:02:46] will address Newman Springs Road and
[3:02:49] lots of pictures are taken and they're
[3:02:52] taken from all varying distances up and
[3:02:54] down Newman Springs Road in both
[3:02:56] directions.
[3:02:56] >> Correct. And then using your plan and again fortunately you corrected your
[3:03:02] mistake before we finished these um
[3:03:06] renderings using the existence of the
[3:03:09] current sign.
[3:03:12] The uh out front prepared a rendering
[3:03:16] showing existing conditions and proposed
[3:03:19] conditions of exactly what
[3:03:23] people will see from these varying
[3:03:25] locations. So, I'm asking the board to
[3:03:27] take a look at A18. The first page is an
[3:03:30] existing condition and that's traveling
[3:03:32] east.
[3:03:34] And
[3:03:36] based on the picture and the way the
[3:03:37] printout is, it's it's difficult to see
[3:03:40] the sign on the left. Uh the sign
[3:03:43] there's a white spot in the distance. I
[3:03:45] originally thought that was the sign.
[3:03:47] That's not. That's a reflection off of
[3:03:48] the building. The sign is uh adjacent to
[3:03:51] that. Correct.
[3:03:52] >> That's correct.
[3:03:54] And then when you turn the page,
[3:03:58] uh, it shows from 750 ft what the view
[3:04:00] of the billboard would be, uh, moved in
[3:04:03] a little bit to the left on this camera.
[3:04:06] >> That's correct.
[3:04:09] >> And you can't see it, but it it is
[3:04:10] advertising October Fest. Yeah.
[3:04:14] The next page is 500 ft traveling in the
[3:04:17] same direction. And there you can see
[3:04:19] behind the um utility pole uh high up by
[3:04:24] where the light poles are, you see the
[3:04:26] face of the existing sign.
[3:04:27] >> That's correct.
[3:04:29] >> And then as you turn to the next page,
[3:04:33] you see much smaller to the left of that
[3:04:36] the uh new sign and then the uh
[3:04:39] billboard beyond it.
[3:04:42] >> That's correct.
[3:04:43] And then again it repeats the same thing
[3:04:45] at 250 ft existing
[3:04:51] and 250 ft proposed.
[3:04:54] >> Correct.
[3:04:54] >> And this is what the traveling public
[3:04:57] would see driving eastbound. And then as
[3:04:59] you go turn the page, uh it's the same
[3:05:03] thing 750 down to 250 showing exactly
[3:05:07] what would be seen to scale at the exact
[3:05:09] height and size of what's being
[3:05:12] proposed. And as you see it's 750 the liquor store sign you could see the
[3:05:18] relation and then the 500
[3:05:23] and then you go through and I think 250
[3:05:25] is is the best seen as you could see in
[3:05:27] comparison. That's correct.
[3:05:30] >> So, we were asked to provide that. I
[3:05:32] just wanted to not leave tonight before
[3:05:35] we had the opportunity to explain what
[3:05:36] those were.
[3:05:38] >> Are there any questions for Dan?
[3:05:40] >> Any questions from the board?
[3:05:43] >> Um, I don't know if you're the right
[3:05:44] person, but I'm just curious about
[3:05:46] connectivity. Um,
[3:05:48] is the you're using um cellular or is
[3:05:52] there uh fiber? Like how is the
[3:05:55] >> It was going to be there. that was asked
[3:05:57] and we went over quickly. It's going to
[3:05:58] be hard w you mean the internet
[3:05:59] activity.
[3:06:00] >> Uh yeah.
[3:06:01] >> Yeah. The internet connectivity. I'm
[3:06:02] sorry. It'll be hardwired.
[3:06:04] >> So then like you mean like fiber optic
[3:06:07] cable or whatever internet is available
[3:06:10] at that location.
[3:06:12] >> So I think that if you if it is fiber
[3:06:15] then you would the installation would
[3:06:16] require trenching and possibly boring in
[3:06:18] a public right of way.
[3:06:22] Well, it it'll depend on what service is
[3:06:24] available to that location.
[3:06:27] >> Okay.
[3:06:30] >> So,
[3:06:32] >> yeah.
[3:06:32] >> I'm just wondering if it's
[3:06:34] >> it's actually what was said before. It's
[3:06:36] wireless.
[3:06:37] >> Wireless.
[3:06:38] >> It'll be wireless. I apologize.
[3:06:41] >> Originally, it was
[3:06:42] >> okay. So, cellular. Is it 4G LTE or 5G?
[3:06:50] Yeah, it it's a secure uh line. We're
[3:06:52] not I'm not sure the exact um type
[3:06:55] >> secure line like a dedicated network
[3:06:57] slice or
[3:06:58] >> I again that's not my expertise.
[3:07:01] >> Okay.
[3:07:03] Um the reason I'm asking is because the
[3:07:05] infrastructure could determine if you
[3:07:07] need additional application elements. So
[3:07:09] like if you're going to ask for fiber,
[3:07:12] it requires trenching. That might be
[3:07:13] outside of the purview of our approving
[3:07:15] the application. Um, I'm also just kind
[3:07:18] of interested in the up link and the
[3:07:21] down link, but I have a feeling that's
[3:07:22] probably too technical a question.
[3:07:23] >> Yeah, it is. It It's It is. And And just
[3:07:26] to answer the question, whatever
[3:07:27] utilities are required, like any
[3:07:28] application that comes before this
[3:07:30] board, if we're required to uh stub them
[3:07:33] in from the street, we'd be subject to
[3:07:35] whatever the requirements are for
[3:07:37] repaving and patching
[3:07:38] >> permits and all of that.
[3:07:39] >> Oh, of course. Road opening permit. And
[3:07:41] also 520 is a county road, so I think
[3:07:43] we'd need county approval as well.
[3:07:45] >> Okay.
[3:07:46] Thank you.
[3:07:48] >> Okay. Any other questions from the
[3:07:50] board?
[3:07:50] >> Yes. Um during which hours will this uh
[3:07:53] billboard be lit?
[3:07:55] >> Um as per the settlement agreement, it's
[3:07:57] going to be lit um beginning at 5:00
[3:08:00] a.m. and ending at midnight.
[3:08:02] >> Ending at midnight.
[3:08:05] >> Okay. And uh before you testify that
[3:08:09] you're taking all the measures you can
[3:08:10] to um follow Dark Sky guidance, it has a
[3:08:13] bunch of mitigating concerns. One of the
[3:08:15] mitigating concerns I read from them is
[3:08:17] to have it off um entirely uh one hour
[3:08:20] before sunrise and um let's see what
[3:08:23] else they say.
[3:08:25] >> Yeah. until basically dust till till
[3:08:28] dawn. And then the um or or the town
[3:08:31] zone or the burough zone ordinance is I
[3:08:34] believe from 11:00 p.m. to 7 a.m. And so
[3:08:37] would you consider a condition to um
[3:08:41] comply with dark skies one hour before
[3:08:44] sunrise instead of the 12 to 5?
[3:08:47] >> So the the short answer is is that we're
[3:08:50] here as a this is not a fresh hearing
[3:08:52] where we are proposing a new use out of
[3:08:54] the blue. We are here as part of a
[3:08:56] settlement negotiation for the pending
[3:08:58] litigation. This was negotiated at
[3:09:01] length
[3:09:03] with the board through Kevin and this is
[3:09:06] where both parties came to and agreed
[3:09:07] to. And just to correct you if I may, I
[3:09:10] don't believe that the timing that you
[3:09:12] referenced is a mitigating factor, a
[3:09:14] generally accepted principle. I think
[3:09:16] instead that was one of the
[3:09:17] recommendations that again are not real
[3:09:19] regulations. They're just
[3:09:20] recommendations. So, right now the
[3:09:24] application is for as was a
[3:09:27] conditionally agreed to before we came
[3:09:29] here, which is midnight to 5:00 a.m. it
[3:09:32] will be off.
[3:09:33] >> Okay. So, it's it's fair to say that it
[3:09:36] being lit at midnight and at 5:00 a.m.
[3:09:39] >> won't be lit at midnight. It'll be off
[3:09:40] at midnight.
[3:09:41] >> 11:59 we'll call it. Um is would not be
[3:09:46] uh following Dark Sky recommendations.
[3:09:48] Right. Again,
[3:09:50] that one recommendation would not be
[3:09:52] followed.
[3:09:53] >> I wouldn't say generally we're not
[3:09:55] following the recommendations.
[3:09:57] >> Okay.
[3:09:57] >> But again, we never
[3:10:00] I I'll just state it again for the
[3:10:01] record. We never said we were dark sky
[3:10:03] compliant. And we also recognized that
[3:10:06] the bureau has not adopted dark sky as a
[3:10:09] requirement, which is very diff which is
[3:10:11] very different than recommending it in a
[3:10:12] master plan and it never materializing
[3:10:14] into an ordinance. And just for the
[3:10:16] record, I think, and I'm going back
[3:10:21] eight, nine months, so I I might be
[3:10:23] wrong, but I think in round one when we
[3:10:26] were talking about 187, Shauna, there
[3:10:29] was definitely a condition of I think a
[3:10:31] longer time frame when it would be shut
[3:10:34] off. And I think we had attempted in our
[3:10:38] negotiations to have a similar time
[3:10:41] frame on this. And as I recall, um, that
[3:10:46] was not part of the, uh, settlement
[3:10:48] agreement at first. And I think we, as I
[3:10:51] recall, we pushed and countered, and then it came
[3:10:55] up with this
[3:10:58] medium proposal, so to speak. That's my
[3:11:00] recollection.
[3:11:01] >> Right. Originally, as part of the
[3:11:02] proposal, we weren't suggesting to turn
[3:11:03] it off at all because again, it's in
[3:11:05] your business district and it's exactly
[3:11:08] where these types of signs should be if
[3:11:10] they were to be anywhere. Um, and yes,
[3:11:13] it was a concession, a mutual concession
[3:11:15] between the board and uh the applicant
[3:11:18] with the five.
[3:11:19] >> I think there was, again, I don't want
[3:11:22] to I mean, everything's on on the table,
[3:11:24] so to speak, but I think there was a
[3:11:27] bigger concern with the 187 because of
[3:11:30] the residential development at
[3:11:33] >> directly across the street. And again,
[3:11:35] Kevin, as it relates to everything on
[3:11:36] the table, I think we talked about
[3:11:38] certainly there can be additional
[3:11:39] conditions imposed, but the settlement
[3:11:41] can't be disregarded as a negotiated
[3:11:43] conditional settlement either that was
[3:11:46] conditionally agreed upon by all of the
[3:11:48] parties. I I think it would be in bad
[3:11:50] faith to now try and renegotiate those.
[3:11:52] >> I I think it was just a question and I
[3:11:54] think it's a fair question and then
[3:11:56] we'll we'll, you know, can discuss in a
[3:11:58] little bit.
[3:12:02] Okay. Any other questions from the
[3:12:03] board?
[3:12:06] >> Yeah. Um, sorry.
[3:12:08] >> Oh, I thought you had your hand up.
[3:12:10] >> I do. I'll wait. I'll wait till you were
[3:12:11] done. I thought that I didn't I wanted
[3:12:13] to make sure the chairman wasn't closing
[3:12:14] everything down.
[3:12:16] >> I was worried about
[3:12:18] >> So, I understand um we we talked a bit
[3:12:20] about glare um in in your testimony and
[3:12:24] uh we do have an ordinance that
[3:12:27] discusses
[3:12:28] glare in distracted driving. I
[3:12:30] understand this is also um part of New
[3:12:33] Jersey Department of Transit and so you would comply with all of their uh
[3:12:38] regulations. I understand that. But um
[3:12:40] our ordinance also involves the uh
[3:12:46] sorry what let me try to find the
[3:12:50] exact language for you because I don't
[3:12:51] want to mess it up. But
[3:12:58] yes, so it says, "No sign shall be
[3:13:01] maintained at any location where by
[3:13:02] reason of its position, sign, shape,
[3:13:04] content, or color, it may be in the
[3:13:06] opinion of the chief of police obstruct,
[3:13:08] impair, obscure, interfere with the view
[3:13:10] of, or be confused for any traffic
[3:13:11] control, sign, signal, or device, etc."
[3:13:14] All that is to just say, have you um
[3:13:17] gotten the opinion of the chief of
[3:13:18] police on your proposal?
[3:13:21] So I believe that
[3:13:24] the application will be submitted to
[3:13:26] outside agencies. I don't know if it's
[3:13:27] the general practice for the board to
[3:13:29] send it out to outside agencies. That
[3:13:31] issue certainly can be something that
[3:13:33] can be done.
[3:13:36] It was sent to him. So he did not have
[3:13:39] any comment apparently.
[3:13:40] >> Okay.
[3:13:44] » And if I could revisit the Vshape again.
[3:13:46] So the um Vshape was for the two
[3:13:48] billboard faces, but the um the circus
[3:13:51] liquor sign is not a Vshape, right?
[3:13:53] Those are correct. That's parallel. It's
[3:13:55] That's right. back to back.
[3:13:58] >> Okay. Any other questions from the
[3:14:00] board?
[3:14:04] » Oh, okay.
[3:14:05] >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um going back
[3:14:08] to the crane test. So,
[3:14:11] is this sort of how back in the day uh
[3:14:13] there were balloon tests for the cell
[3:14:15] towers? So, the day of the crane test, I
[3:14:18] mean, let me let me backtrack. Is you
[3:14:20] said there's a flag raise. Is it a big
[3:14:22] fat flag? How does it how does it handle
[3:14:25] wind? I mean, how accurate can we
[3:14:28] >> hung from the crane? So, it's kind of
[3:14:31] like a like a chevron sign that you see
[3:14:34] on the on the roadway with with diagonal
[3:14:36] slashes on it. And it's it's about 10
[3:14:39] feet tall and it's probably about two or
[3:14:42] three feet wide. And they hang that from
[3:14:44] the crane and they place it at the edge
[3:14:47] of the sign that you want to want to I
[3:14:50] guess build off of from an exhibit
[3:14:52] standpoint that you want to judge the
[3:14:54] sign by. You don't want to write middle
[3:14:56] because it's hard to tell exactly where
[3:14:58] that middle is depending on your
[3:15:00] perspective. So in this case it was hung
[3:15:03] at the southern edge of the sign
[3:15:07] at the at the height at the proposed
[3:15:09] height. Um and that way the renderer can
[3:15:13] take those photos and see where that
[3:15:16] edge of sign is and then superimpose the
[3:15:19] image of the render of the of the sign
[3:15:21] there. and also for the the outfront
[3:15:25] team on the day of that test can also
[3:15:28] drive around and say is this the
[3:15:30] appropriate height for this sign? Um
[3:15:33] does it higher? Does it does it be
[3:15:36] lower? Can it be lower? Um so those are
[3:15:38] the kinds of things to look at.
[3:15:41] >> Were you present on the day of the
[3:15:43] >> He's not on this.
[3:15:44] >> Thiago from his firm was were you?
[3:15:47] >> Yeah, Andrew was present. if you have
[3:15:48] any questions about the conditions at
[3:15:50] the time.
[3:15:51] >> Um,
[3:15:53] okay. Uh, so is I mean who is someone so
[3:15:58] is the testimony from this team that
[3:16:00] this is generally speaking what the sign
[3:16:03] will be you know their location is as
[3:16:05] accurate as accurate as possible.
[3:16:07] >> I've witnessed other tests
[3:16:10] um but I know um Mr. Harvey has been at
[3:16:13] numerous tests and is out front. It's
[3:16:17] something they've routinely done um
[3:16:20] previous to crate
[3:16:23] balloon test as well. I think the crane
[3:16:25] test is a lot more exact. You could put
[3:16:27] a ruler on everything that you're
[3:16:28] measuring and be confident as to where
[3:16:30] it is in two dimensions over the site.
[3:16:33] >> Have you ever after the fact after the
[3:16:36] billboard is installed gone back and
[3:16:38] looked at these uh exhibits and compared
[3:16:41] it to what you see out there? or has
[3:16:44] somebody
[3:16:44] >> I personally have not.
[3:16:46] >> So, it's your testimony that this is
[3:16:48] accurate, but you've and they're very
[3:16:50] accurate, but nobody's looked at it.
[3:16:53] >> Well, no.
[3:16:56] >> Dan Dan said he never looked at said
[3:16:58] nobody's ever looked at it. So,
[3:17:00] >> so I'm not usually tied into um that
[3:17:04] aspect. As an engineer, if we were asked
[3:17:06] to confirm the location of the sign,
[3:17:09] we'd send a survey crew out and they
[3:17:11] would physically survey the sign to make
[3:17:13] sure it matched the height, elevation,
[3:17:16] and two-dimensional location that's on
[3:17:18] the plan or if there was any deviation.
[3:17:20] But I wouldn't go out and just look at
[3:17:22] it and come to a conclusion because
[3:17:23] frankly I myself.
[3:17:25] >> Okay. And then
[3:17:28] the photos are all along Newman Spring
[3:17:31] Road. is that because there was no
[3:17:34] concern about the residents then the the closest residents and what that type
[3:17:39] of visual impact might be. So, so again,
[3:17:42] I wasn't there, but I do know that um
[3:17:45] Thiago, my my associate from from
[3:17:47] Dynamic Thiago Dwart, um he did go and
[3:17:51] take a couple pictures from different
[3:17:52] locations that he couldn't see the crane
[3:17:54] from those locations. So, it's hard to
[3:17:56] even say when you go to that location
[3:17:58] where the sign is when you can't see it
[3:18:01] um or where the crane is, but there was
[3:18:03] some exploratory exploring around. and
[3:18:06] you take a look at the agreement um and
[3:18:08] certainly any sign it it we we weren't
[3:18:12] trying to make it an invisible sign. So
[3:18:14] we're not saying that it will be
[3:18:16] invisible from varying locations. What
[3:18:19] we need to demonstrate is that there
[3:18:20] will be no substantial light impact from
[3:18:23] it to those various locations which is
[3:18:26] done visa v the knits as well as the
[3:18:29] foot candles and the fact that it would
[3:18:30] be zero at those locations. So again,
[3:18:34] the the whether or not you can see the
[3:18:37] sign, they can also see the circus sign
[3:18:40] potentially if they could see our sign,
[3:18:42] the current one. There's no obligation
[3:18:44] to make a sign invisible. There's an
[3:18:46] obligation to make sure that there's no
[3:18:48] substantial impact as it relates to the
[3:18:50] lighting.
[3:18:52] >> And I recognize that and I'm not
[3:18:53] suggesting that the sign would be
[3:18:55] visible. I'm saying first of all I want
[3:18:57] to make sure that the of the accuracy of the exhibit and up until
[3:19:04] tonight we didn't have any information
[3:19:06] on how the exhibit was prepared. That's
[3:19:09] the first part.
[3:19:10] >> The crane test photos with you either no
[3:19:12] one of you. I'm happy to share the crane
[3:19:14] test photos with you.
[3:19:16] >> I I
[3:19:17] >> they're the same photos that you see.
[3:19:19] It's just that the crane
[3:19:20] >> the crane instead of the
[3:19:22] >> digitally removed from the photo.
[3:19:25] I would really like to see that. Happy
[3:19:27] to. That would answer a lot of the
[3:19:29] questions, I think, potentially.
[3:19:32] Do
[3:19:32] >> you have any photos of what the sign
[3:19:34] looked like from the baseball field
[3:19:35] that's about 50 yards from there?
[3:19:38] >> I I do not. I do not. We We have these
[3:19:41] that we ran. I know they went to a
[3:19:43] couple of residential neighborhoods to
[3:19:44] look for for evidence, but again, I was
[3:19:47] not there. So,
[3:19:51] » so,
[3:19:53] and I know you weren't there.
[3:19:55] Will the do the photos that are going to
[3:19:58] be provided, do they show anything from
[3:20:01] the residential neighborhoods that you
[3:20:03] can't see the sign or is are there any
[3:20:06] photos from the residential
[3:20:07] neighborhoods or there was
[3:20:10] >> we talked about this and the the the
[3:20:12] problem with doing that is is that if I
[3:20:14] brought a photo from a residential
[3:20:15] neighborhood
[3:20:17] Then the then the question would be,
[3:20:19] well, what about their second floor
[3:20:20] bedroom? And then the question would be,
[3:20:22] what about the house next door? What
[3:20:23] about the house next door to that? We
[3:20:25] can't go into their homes or onto their
[3:20:27] properties. We can only be at the street
[3:20:29] right ofway, which is going to be a very
[3:20:31] different view from where it would be to
[3:20:33] those homes. What we can tell you is is
[3:20:35] that traveling on the right of way, the
[3:20:37] crane was not visible from any vantage
[3:20:40] point that we were at from those
[3:20:42] residential neighborhoods.
[3:20:45] We can't give you a viewpoint from every
[3:20:47] home in every residential neighborhood.
[3:20:50] It it and I know this to be a fact. You
[3:20:53] weren't at the last meeting I was. When
[3:20:55] we did show photos from various
[3:20:57] homeowners property lines, we got
[3:20:59] challenged. Well, what about the one
[3:21:01] next door? What about the one behind it?
[3:21:02] Well, that's not a fair representation.
[3:21:04] So there is no exhibit I can give you
[3:21:07] that will satisfy you that it will not
[3:21:09] be seen from that there will be no
[3:21:11] residential home that it will be seen
[3:21:13] from. What we can offer is is that
[3:21:19] the light from it will not have
[3:21:21] substantial intrusion in any residential
[3:21:24] home.
[3:21:26] But I do think it's important to
[3:21:27] establish that the light there will not
[3:21:29] be substantial intrusion of light to the
[3:21:31] park where it's probably the busiest
[3:21:34] park in Mammoth County quite frankly.
[3:21:36] Yeah.
[3:21:36] >> So when the sporting events are going on
[3:21:38] >> Yeah. I would I would say
[3:21:39] >> confirm that
[3:21:41] our narrow view technology
[3:21:45] » dimensions in three dimensions in in in
[3:21:49] going sides of the stium where we limit
[3:21:52] that's a hard cap.
[3:21:55] They won't be able to see this sign.
[3:21:57] >> They'll see the structure. They won't be
[3:21:58] able to see the message
[3:21:59] >> only within this cone. I was asking
[3:22:03] >> all the way out here
[3:22:06] be able to see the light that's on the
[3:22:08] pan
[3:22:10] cone is what our where our narrowology.
[3:22:23] And then looking south, kind of very
[3:22:24] similar with the neighbors here to the
[3:22:26] south. Laurel Street is all out of that
[3:22:29] cone. Henry Street is all out of that
[3:22:32] cone. I mean, this line projects down
[3:22:35] >> residential property and head street.
[3:22:38] >> Now you're talking like that are
[3:22:40] >> right. Then you're more railroad.
[3:22:43] >> There's trees.
[3:22:43] >> That would my concern is if you could
[3:22:45] see it from the park. And if you're
[3:22:47] saying the cone is where you can see the
[3:22:49] sign, you can't see it from the park.
[3:22:51] >> All right. Well, you can see the
[3:22:52] structure. You just can't see the map.
[3:22:54] >> And also if you look at the picture of
[3:22:56] 500 feet traveling westbound, you look
[3:22:58] at the size of that
[3:22:59] >> 500 feet and you extrapolate around
[3:23:01] that.
[3:23:02] >> Correct.
[3:23:02] >> This thing's going to be about this big.
[3:23:04] >> Correct.
[3:23:06] >> Okay.
[3:23:07] >> Which was the purpose of this?
[3:23:09] >> Any more questions from the board?
[3:23:10] >> Uh yes. So the in the performance
[3:23:14] standards um 10A on on your site design.
[3:23:18] I might have an older copy in front of
[3:23:19] me. I apologize. So, it says that um for
[3:23:25] ordinance 490-54C11,
[3:23:28] uh there shall be no direct or sky
[3:23:29] reflected glare. Um it says it complies
[3:23:32] with the first part of it. Now, the
[3:23:34] second part of it is on intense glare
[3:23:36] and it says it's not applicable. Could
[3:23:39] you speak to why it's not applicable?
[3:23:41] >> Just where are you reading from the plan
[3:23:43] or the
[3:23:44] >> I'm reading from uh
[3:23:46] >> probably your response letter would be
[3:23:48] my guess. No, it would be
[3:23:52] I apologize. I don't have the um it's
[3:23:54] the site plan sheet number three.
[3:23:56] >> Oh, okay. Oh, so so performance
[3:23:59] standards note 10. Sorry, I wasn't
[3:24:01] following as you were. I wasn't
[3:24:02] following it.
[3:24:03] >> It's note 10 and which which one? A or
[3:24:05] B?
[3:24:06] >> A.
[3:24:13] Any operation or activity producing
[3:24:15] intense glare shall be conducted so that
[3:24:18] direct and indirect illumination from
[3:24:20] the source of light shall not cause
[3:24:23] illumination in excess of 0.1 ft candle
[3:24:26] in residential districts. So we probably
[3:24:29] put said NA for that init or no we say complies for that right or no we
[3:24:34] probably put NA for that because it's
[3:24:35] not in a residential district but that
[3:24:38] was part of my testimony anyway that
[3:24:40] >> we comply So
[3:24:44] this is the point 0.0. So just inside of
[3:24:48] this envelope is 0.1
[3:24:52] and there's the the there's not any
[3:24:55] residential district where that's
[3:24:56] distributed to.
[3:24:57] >> Okay.
[3:24:58] >> In either misspelled.
[3:25:00] I apologize that it says NA there.
[3:25:02] Probably misinterpreted that one. Didn't
[3:25:04] we drafted the plans?
[3:25:07] >> Okay,
[3:25:09] last one. Any questions from the board?
[3:25:11] Any questions from the public for this
[3:25:14] witness?
[3:25:16] Okay, we'll close that public portion
[3:25:20] >> and we're done with this guy.
[3:25:24] » Done with him.
[3:25:26] >> Could I would ask that we carry this
[3:25:28] without the need for further notice. I
[3:25:30] do understand that my planner was
[3:25:32] negotiating a date based on her
[3:25:34] availability and that the date may be
[3:25:37] October 1st. So, is that an available
[3:25:40] date?
[3:25:43] Do we do we have anything about in
[3:25:45] September?
[3:25:49] » I I don't Is that the date you were
[3:25:50] asking for, Christine, or no?
[3:25:56] » Okay.
[3:25:58] >> And I know you're thinking about the
[3:25:59] judge wanting this to be handled in an
[3:26:02] expedited manner.
[3:26:04] >> And we don't want to have the situation,
[3:26:05] Mr. Mass, where the judge demands that
[3:26:07] we stay till 2 in the morning and our
[3:26:09] eyes are open. I understand that. But at
[3:26:11] the same time,
[3:26:12] >> I know
[3:26:12] >> after 10:00 and like I said,
[3:26:15] >> and we started at 6,
[3:26:16] >> they're all volunteers and a lot of them
[3:26:19] work work jobs during the day and it's
[3:26:21] been a long day. So,
[3:26:23] >> I'm agreeing with you.
[3:26:25] >> So, October.
[3:26:27] Yeah.
[3:26:29] >> All right. So, uh Jennifer, uh assuming
[3:26:32] that we have a motion, do you consent to
[3:26:34] extend the time frame within which the
[3:26:36] board has to act on this application? of
[3:26:38] course through the meeting following the
[3:26:41] October 1st meeting.
[3:26:42] >> Perfect. So, Mr. Chairman, if it's
[3:26:44] acceptable to the board, we'll have a
[3:26:46] motion to carry this application to
[3:26:49] October 1st, 2026, 6:30 p.m. without the
[3:26:54] need for any further public notice. Um,
[3:26:57] if that we can have a motion of
[3:26:58] >> I will make that motion.
[3:27:02] » And Tori,
[3:27:04] >> yes.
[3:27:04] >> Raymond Mass,
[3:27:05] >> yes. Greg Fitzgerald, yes.
[3:27:08] >> John Gild,
[3:27:09] >> yes.
[3:27:10] >> Vincent Light,
[3:27:11] >> yes.
[3:27:11] >> Paul Kagno,
[3:27:12] >> yes.
[3:27:12] >> Eugene Harowitz,
[3:27:14] >> yes.
[3:27:15] >> Chris Havens,
[3:27:16] >> yes.
[3:27:16] >> Darthy Ceruo.
[3:27:18] >> And Jennifer, just for recordeping
[3:27:20] purposes, I think you know, in the
[3:27:22] absence of extraordinary circumstances,
[3:27:24] you have one witness left.
[3:27:26] >> Yes.
[3:27:28] >> And you're going to send the the photos
[3:27:31] from the crane test also? I
[3:27:32] >> am. Thank you. I'm going to send you the
[3:27:34] naked crane and then I'm going to send
[3:27:37] you the ones with the crane embedded in
[3:27:39] the sign to show that it's perfectly
[3:27:41] lined up in height and southern edge.
[3:27:44] >> I thought it might having the crane in
[3:27:46] it might have been confusing to the
[3:27:47] board, but I'm happy to give it to you
[3:27:48] as backup.
[3:27:49] >> Thank you.
[3:28:09] that we want the applicants to submit
[3:28:11] prior to the hearing. Obviously, the
[3:28:13] crane test pictures.
[3:28:18] If somebody thinks of something, contact
[3:28:21] me. Not reply all. I mean, not copy
[3:28:24] everyone and I I will reach out to Miss
[3:28:25] Primka.
[3:28:26] >> Okay.
[3:28:27] >> To the extent we can do it, we're happy
[3:28:29] to. We we we rocked quite a bit on the
[3:28:31] nets, so we'll try to do better next
[3:28:34] time.
[3:28:34] >> Great. Thank you.
[3:28:35] >> I feel like I need a lice comb for that.
[3:28:38] >> Motion to adjurnn.
[3:28:41] >> Oh,
[3:28:46] » and made the Tory.
[3:28:49] >> Second.
[3:28:52] >> All in favor?
[3:28:54] I