regular meeting of the planning
commission for uh November 3rd, 2025. 5
is called to order at 6:00 p.m.
Could we have the roll call, please?
>> Member Peterson
>> here.
>> Member Sparks Gillis absent. Member
Ziggler
>> here.
>> Vice Chair Adler absent. Chair Williams
>> here.
>> Thank you.
>> Bill, would you lead us in the pledge,
please?
>> Be happy to.
» Ready? Pledge. I pledge allegiance to
the flag of the United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands.
One nation under God, indivisible, with
liberty and justice for all.
» Okay. Next up, approve the order of the
agenda. Does anybody want to change the
order of the agenda?
>> Move approval.
Second.
>> Moved and seconded. All in favor?
>> I passes 3 0.
Public comment.
It doesn't look like we have anybody
here for public comment or online.
So, we'll move directly to the consent
items.
Does anybody want to pull the consent
items or have any questions about them
before we?
» None here.
>> I'll move approval of the consent items.
>> Second.
>> Uh moved and seconded. All in favor?
>> I
uh
and I meant just one question about the
uh these events. the this chart. There's
a a number of things on here that are
expiring this year. Uh some have one's
has already expired and one is going to
expire in a couple of days. What what is
going to happen with those items?
>> Are these the improved entitlements or
are these projects that are under
construction? Uh
the uh it's on the first page. Page
eight
is uh the uh Schaefer Family Trust. It
says the expired uh October 30th.
>> Oh, 4:30. Oh, that was actually final.
So, hence why it says building permit
final.
>> Okay. [laughter]
>> Yeah. So, it's all done. And that's
actually the new Thai restaurant that
opened up.
>> Okay. Okay. And then moving down to the
approved entitlements, the the first two
there.
>> So 1420 Mission Drive, they are out of
additional extensions. So going to
assume that they will not have an
approved building permit by the 6th of
this month considering that they haven't
even submitted for permit. So that will
also die.
>> Okay.
>> So they will start back at the drawing
board.
And as for the condo map, um, that one's
a that one's an interesting one because
that one
we have, I believe this one is I don't
recall if this was the 2-year extension,
which I think it's the two-year
extension, but this has a three-year
um development uh plan that was
approved. So, the map will die on the
25th on on December 4th, but the
applicant is looking to redo everything.
So, um,
>> we may see something on that.
>> We'll see something completely different
from what's been approved. So, that one
probably will die quietly as well. So,
>> okay.
Thank you.
Um, exparte communications have anything
to report?
>> Nope.
>> None here.
>> Uh, no. Item five, item six, discussion
items.
discussion and direction for title 11
chapter 13 the signed ordinance.
Uh
before we start just a comment Raphael I
want to uh
thank you and staff for the work you did
on this.
Uh I know it's a lot of work. Uh Aaron
and I have gone through this two or
three times where we've had to do the
work that uh staff has done this time
and we never got any support. So I'm
really happy to see this finally
something actually happening.
>> Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean you guys
started the work back in uh I want to
say 201819 give or take. So before that
[laughter]
» well before you this evening is actually
it's not the finished product. It's our
draft sign ordinance uh planning
commission review. So, just to give
everyone who's watching or will watch
this uh in the future a little bit of
background on where we're at with this
thing. So, uh we've been talking about a
new sign ordinance since I started here.
Um we did hold a joint workshop on March
13, 2025 with the planning commission
and the DRC. Um that we got a little bit
of direction on. Um and from that
direction we ended up starting beginning
a series of of feedback from the design
review committee beginning in June. Uh
held one in August and October. And so
at this point we're really preparing the
admin draft for city council in January
2026. So what that means is it's still
an admin form. This you're not adopting
something tonight. Uh but we're just
basically asking for your feedback and
comments and then we are looking for a a
target adoption as of February. So
essentially what'll end up happening is
uh we'll we'll take this to city
council. If we can get it into the end
of the year, that'd be great for their
feedback. If not, we'll roll out the
first January meeting and then we'll
target um February for us to actually
begin the adoption process. And of
course, our city attorney will still
need to take a look at this who's on the
line uh if you have any questions. So
the basis for the amendments are really
four-fold. Uh first is to modernize our city sign regulations. if uh we've had these in place since 2012. We
attempted in 2018 and 19 to amend these.
Um just they've never really gone
anywhere. Um we're really trying to
ensure legal defensibility and first
amendment compliance. That's the biggest
key. Um third is we're trying to adapt
to new technology and listening to the
needs of our businesses. And then the
last but not least one is maintaining
our Danish village aesthetic. That's
really what it comes down to is. So we
have these competing sort of things all
glancing into one in terms of we have
this brand we want to maintain. Uh but
our siding ordinance hasn't really kept
up with any uh case law and over the
last 10 years and then of that we just
you know we're trying to balance the
what we're hearing from the business
community.
So, one of the the big items that our
siden ordinance really falls short on is
this idea of of content neutrality. And
so, what the draft ordinance so far is align with the big court case from
2015, which was Reed versus the Town of
Gilbert. Um, so we've really removed
messagebased distinctions, i.e.
political signs, real estate signs,
construction signs, all those have sort
of been removed out of the ordinance,
and instead we're really regulating
based on physical attributes, placement,
and duration. So, time, place, manner is
really what it comes down to. Um, we've
removed the idea of colors. We move the
idea of logos that and the and fonts,
etc., and really just drilling down to
time, place, manner, but we want it to
look with a certain aesthetic. and
that's sort of been the legal standing
since about 2015.
The other one is just allowing
non-commercial messages to substitute on
any sign structure. So, we've recently
had this uh where a property owner
decided to place a non-commercial
message sign up. Most certainly can do
it. That's within their realm. Um it's
just we need needed to make it very
clear that it's it can substitute for an
allowed sign. So again, just really
trying to punch up that language to make
sure we're consistent with federal case
law.
The next sort of set that we were
looking at is modernizing our sign code.
Uh so this includes streamlining
language and much more clear intent. So
um our code was in is ambiguous that it
has language that it prefers or
recommends or et we sort of eliminated
that. We've also simplified the
permitting process and we've so we're
introducing administrative sign permits
and so that's sort of been this in in
the 2018 2019 effort city staff um had attempted to go ahead and get sign
uh permits all administrative which for
most municipalities actually is what
they do. It's the kind of the standard.
Signs are are typically again time place
manner. There's not much to it. Uh of
course with solving we're a little bit
different. uh we definitely want to
maintain our aesthetic and our look. So,
we kind of also had the idea of of
streamlining it that way, but we've
heard back from this planning commission
and the DRC. And so, we're going to sort
of split the difference a little bit.
So, what we've written in is some
signage will be done administratively.
So, many temp signs, uh A-frame signs
that we will allow in um those will be
done administratively or over the
counter. So, they don't need to go to
DRC. The big one that it actually will
change out is suspended signs. So those
are the ones that you mainly see along
your sidewalks. Those are your
pedestrian oriented signs that hang from
the building. If you're using the same
hardware and you're using everything and
you're only changing out the sign and it
meets all the intent of the code, you
can get it over the counter. It's as
simple simplistic as that. Um the DRC
did wanted a caveat stating that if they
uh applicant came back with a wall sign
in six months or a time frame
essentially, we've put down 6 months. So
we'll make it pretty clear that hey, if
you're going to do a wall sign that we
want to see it all as one package, but
if you're really just aiming to get
something up and and get it going and
you're not doing much and you're just
doing that, let let's do that over the
counter. So sort of a test run is
probably the best way of taking a look
at it. Um if everything works out pretty
well then uh maybe it might be something
in a future goal to amend further signs
uh to go into by right administrative
permit only. Um but for now we got to
run a test balloon and that's the test
balloon we're going to run. The other uh
is the objective design measurement
standard. So again, getting rid of our
current language, um, amending our
current language that discussed colors,
that discussed fonts, that discussed
logos, and inability to put on a
website, etc. That's content based,
that's message based. We're not supposed
to be looking at it. So instead, we're
looking really at objective standards
instead. And so what that means is what type of material is being
utilized for the sign? How tall is it?
How big is it? Where is it located?
those type of things that are much more
definitive and objective that's falls in
line with uh federal case law. And then
the other one is is integrating with our
updated design handbook. So we have a
set of I where that's where we can say
hey if you're looking for this type of
design aesthetic this is probably much
more pleasing. Uh but again it's more
it's essentially uh not necessarily a
recommendation but just hey this is what
we tend to prefer more so than anything
else and sort of integrating those two
together.
So some of the proposed new signage uh
that's in our ordinance is the
regulation of murals. This is something
where uh city staff did spar with the
DRC um and by city staff meaning myself
and the extension of our city attorney
um our city attorney's office. Um, so
currently our ordinance actually doesn't
regulate murals. It's a blank. Um,
murals are are great is that they add
some vibrancy, especially to blank
walls. Uh, but there are pitfalls to
those, particularly when it comes to
what's being painted and what the
message is. Um, best practices is sort
of stay out of that realm and just say,
"Hey, look, as long as you've met these
criterias, we are okay with it." Um, so,
uh, while we overheard the DRC and we
took in their, um, we did modify some of
the language, uh, based on their
suggestions, we are still going to be
recommending to council that this is
done at an administrative level as long
as you've met the criteria for it. And
again, art is extremely subjective. Uh,
it's the eye of the beholder. uh what
one um sort of uh beer cup looking thing
that sits in the median is a beer cup
looking thing versus a trophy. It's a
whole different story. Uh what is a
stein versus a trophy versus what is
art? It's all subjective. So again,
rather just keep the metrics in there in
terms of up upkeep of maintenance. Where
is it located at? Is it visible? How big
is it? How long are you going to install
it, etc.
um allowance for A-frame signs. That's
something we heard from our workshop. Um
so in this instance, we are going to
allow A-frame signs. Um they will not be
allowed in the rightway. Uh they will
require a sign permit that will require
to be reviewed. Um there is something uh
that we're proposing is an actual change
out of the sign face every 30 days
because that's the intention of the
A-frame sign. It's really to draw a
customer in whether you have a sale,
whether special, the day, etc. Again,
we're not looking at regulating the
message um or the content. We're just
simply saying, "Hey, if you can change
out that face every 30 days, that's
great." And again, that sort of prevents
this idea of purchasing an A-frame sign
and just having a static message all day
long. And really, the intention of the
A-frame sign is to advertise something
different, whether again weekly special,
nightly special, a sale, a new item, and
just really and leaving that up to our
business owners. But again asking for a a change in the face every 30 days as
part of the issuance of the permit and
again time place manner regulations. So
the sign needs to come in at the end of
the business day. It just can't
permanently stay out. Can't be lit.
Can't have balloons on it. Um and it
can't be located on right away. It needs
to be located within x amount of feet
from the door. It needs to keep a ADA
path cleared. So, there's regulations
that are time, place, manner, uh, to try
to streamline that, but allow for our
businesses to utilize the A-frame signs,
wayfinding, and directional signage for
pedestrians. This is actually new. Um,
currently we kind of have that. We kind
of don't. Uh, we I think at best what
you're you're seeing is the directional
signage that's been in planters. Um,
which again is great. Uh, has kind of
worked. Um, but planters aren't
technically permanent. there's no
foundation to it. Some of them have bolt
they think that the way around it is
they said well if the planter is
permanent and boltered in we we'll call
it good but then that becomes a sticky
wicket. So at this point we're we've
introduced these this type of signage
again with objective standards that it
is a permanent sign structure. It can't
be in a planner. It has to meet the
objective criteria and again it equals
the playing field for everybody. um
umbrella awning and freestanding signs
are clarified. Um and so those that's uh
some of our umbrella sign uh language
was not very clear. Um our freestanding
signage is now clarified. And then uh
digital limited signs limited and
standardized. So again, this is part of
that message of eliminating content
base. One of the biggest ones is have
neon signs. Uh neon signs is strictly
prohibited except for a hotel use.
That's content. Sorry, can't have that.
So we've heard loud and clear to just
eliminate straight up.
um revised standards. So again,
illustrating measurement and standards.
You see that in your staff report and
we'll continue to um try to include as
many images to help city staff and
business owners uh determine how to do
that. Um objective limits for area,
height, and placement. One of the bigger
issues in and allowances what we've done
is we've actually increased the amount
of signage that you can do um in terms
of the letter height. Um, and we've sort
of given you this box to say, "Hey, if
this is based on your linear footage.
So, if you have 50 feet of frontage, 50
ft is your max, you go figure it out.
We're not going to tell you how to
figure it out, but you as the business
owner need to go figure out. So, if you
want to put all your eggs in one basket
in a sign, be our guest. That's
perfectly fine by us. Um, if you want to
split the difference, which most people
do, they'll split it between a suspended
sign, a regular wall sign, or a sign on
a on an awning, perfect. That's
fantastic. But you got to figure this
out. We'll give you the box to play
with. And that's a big fundamental
difference versus what our current
ordinance is. It accepts a window sign
and accepts a umbrella sign and it
accepts a suspended sign. So you start
having all these sign exceptions and
that's where you really do get the sign
clutter versus just stating you got 50
square feet to work with. Figure it out.
You as the business owner and if it
doesn't work, cool. Then you do
something new. But you got to figure it
out all within your 50 square ft.
Whether it's uh a new whether it's a
display sign that's in the front coupled
with a new awning sign, etc. Again, it's
really putting the the power back in the
business owner's hands. We're actually
proposing illumination standards [gasps]
for a town that really uh really really
wants dark skies. It was kind of
shocking to not have an illumination
standard. We got that in. So, that's
what we're proposing out. And then
again, strengthening our maintenance and
repair requirements. Um the couple
sections sort of left it up to uh the
director but gave no time frame. um
others were out of whack with existing
code sections. So really we streamlined
it. We made it consistent with our
chapter one that already deals with it
and again just really trying to clean it
up.
Um and then as mentioned before looking
at the streamline review, the
administrative permits um really looking
at the DRC um to handle more of the
complex applications. So, um, again,
those wall signs or sign programs go to
them. And then making a very clear
appeal section and exception procedures.
So, right now, that's not very clear of
where that goes. Um, our findings have
been cleaned up. And again, we're
looking for if we're loosening up the
sign ordinance, you better have a very
good reason why you're looking for an
exception. And then again, consolidating
our enforcement and compliance under our
city code. So that's basically the
overview of what is being proposed in
the draft signed ordinance. Your tasks
this evening are just to provide
comments and feedback. Uh provide any
directions or modifications and ask
questions of say you staff because again
this isn't um the last time we'll be
checking in with the planning
commission. Um but we are almost there
to sort of finish up and wrap up uh the
sign ordinance which has been many years
in the making. And with that I'll turn
it over to commission for any questions.
So, any immediate questions before we go
to public comment?
>> I I do. Raphael, could you um do we have
any regulation on murals? And if so,
could you talk about that a little bit
>> in the current ordinance or in the
proposed ordinance?
>> Well, you indicated that you did not
want to restrict, but I don't know what
you currently have. So, I guess
>> we don't have anything in the current
ordinance, which is why we're proposing
it now.
>> And what are you proposing? So, in the
current section, it's it's coming it's
called out in the proposed um side
ordinance. It it's called out as its own
sort of specialty signage.
>> And so
here it sort of defines what a mural is,
what's the purpose, exempt from sign
consideration.
>> Page 29.
>> Yeah, page 29 and 30.
>> Thank you. And then it really the review
authority falls onto the director and
then as long as the standards are and the first standard is a
non-commercial content. A mural is
non-commercial. It doesn't contain any
logo, trademark, trade names or other
commercial identifiers. And if the
primary purpose is aesthetic, cultural
or expressive rather than advertise. Uh
so case in point, you get a nice little
mural of of a Coke bottle. It's a Coke
bottle. So it's it's pretty there. uh
locations just located on the exterior
wall or permanent surface visible from
the public rideway. Uh just making sure
that any lighting shall be directed to
prevent any glare on the adjacent
properties. Um safety is to not cover
windows or doors and then ensuring a
maintenance and then putting a limit on
the number of murals which is one per building or property whichever is
less.
>> So um I I understand the free speech
component of things. Um, what if
something were proposed that was
patently offensive? Um,
swastikas and things of that nature.
How, if you have no standard, how would
you regulate that? I
>> I will turn that question over to our
city attorney, Taylor, who is on
>> course. So, um, patently offensive
speech, there's a different standard for
it, and hate speech that's specifically
defined and treated differently under
the First Amendment. So if something did
come up that was proposed that fell into
those categories, the city would be able
to to regulate that and essentially say
no.
>> Thank you.
Yeah, it would it would still require a
permit. So it would still require a
submitt required for us to review to
make sure it meets the criteria. Um
we're we're just not taking it and
bubbling it up to um the powers that be.
Unless, of course, we most certainly
have to. And in in an application like
that, most certainly we could reference
out to the DRC first and have them take
a crack in a public hearing. Um, that's
always within the director's ability to
do that. Uh, but again, it it's just
administratively we want to continue to
just keep that at a staff level.
>> I appreciate the clarification.
I will have a question um on a specific
item. when you get to 1113
7 AE
um
>> why don't we go to public comment okay
>> before we get into the individual if
that's okay
>> sure
>> okay well well we'll take it to public
comment
uh there's nobody here there's nobody
online
so we'll close public comment and bring
it back to the commissioner
Bill, I interrupted you.
>> No worries. That's appropriate. Um, so
what I found was in that section, let me
get to it.
>> Yeah. What was that section?
>> It was 11-13-7
capital A, little E. And um,
>> page
around page 20 or so.
>> 22.
Thank you.
>> Get there to
Um, I just had a question about time of
display. You have none listed. So that
indicate that you're not allowed to do
that.
>> Um, as in there's we don't have a
duration of time of display as in 180
days, 6 months. Um, and we can most
certainly change the language.
>> So no restriction.
>> Correct. So,
>> um yeah,
>> we just don't want to and the r the
rationale is we do not want to uh
specifically limit um non-commercial
signs on residential properties whether
it's
you know elections are completely
different that they got their own sort
of guidelines and everything but but
more so if you want to support the
troops or you want to voice your opinion
on whatever administration's in place or
whatever or product dour or or keep your
goats in your yard. I we just don't want
to we don't want to limit that.
» Okay. I have just
I I have a lot of things to to mention.
None of them major I hope. Uh but just
one general question.
Uh in the past, our biggest problem with
the signed ordinance, aside from people
complaining about it, is a lack of
enforcement.
Are there any plans of foot to actually
enforce these regulations?
>> Yeah, that's the intention of this. When
somebody gets a sign approved,
is there's somebody that's going to go
out and look at the sign when it's up
and say, "Yes, that's that's what was
approved or no, it's not." Because a lot
of times people make changes in the
process of putting up their signs.
>> Yeah. So I mean that so with the sign
permit obviously um there there is
supposed to be followup and and and for
the most part most people when they put
permanent signage it is what it is. Um
as far as the temporary signs that's a
different story. That's end of story is
yes there will be enforcing to it. Um
we'll be since code enforcement and
compliance is in our community
development department. I'll be working
very closely with our code compliance
officer to make sure our A-frame signs
and temporary banner signs are are done
at the time frame to which they're
approved and taken down at the time
frame in which they're supposed to be
taken down. So there there very much is
enforcement that goes with it as there
is today and very much follows our our
policies for um enforcing our ordinance.
Well, I I've got a few.
>> Well, what why don't we just go through
page by page
>> and starting on page 16.
>> Can we start on 15?
>> 15. Okay.
>> 15. Um B. It's just a I think it's a
typo. B is I think it says consistent
with section 11134. I think it's 11133
which is the exempt signs I think.
Yes, it could be it. We'll check back
again because it's admin draft. Some of
the sections would get moved around. So,
we've got to make sure that's correct.
>> That's all I had on on 15. Thank you.
>> Okay. Page 16, exempt signs.
>> Um I I have some questions. Um,
so we we've got if we go to uh 11133
and we go down to two and temporary
signage related to Ulfest and Danish
days or any other official city holiday.
Um, I assume that's
a legal term. Is it is something where
they say we declare that Fourth of July
is an official city holiday or event and
they do that every year. Do people come
up and say here's an official event.
It's going to be I don't know car show
in the park. I mean it is it limited or
is it up to city council to just come up
with these official city holidays? It
might be offensive that Ulifest is
listed in Danish days, but other um
other holidays are not for and and so
I'm just curious, do we put anything in
there or do we just say any official
holiday as declared by city and let it
go?
>> So we we specifically did Yulfest simply
because that's something that in Danish
days is those two big sort of festivals,
Fourth of July being the other one. Um
really the aim is to just have the
ability for parks and wreck who issues
out uh temporary event permits to allow
for sort of those banner signs to be
there as a in conjunction with that. Um
we most certainly can clean it up. Um
but really the reality is we we want to
be make sure sort of cover our bases to
say that the signed ordinance doesn't
affect any of those city sponsored
events and most certainly we can clean the language up.
>> Okay. it. You could certainly say any
temporary signage related to any
official city holiday event or events
such as Ulfest, Danish Days, etc. And
then you'd cover official events.
>> And that's a that's actually a fantastic
>> clarify. We do have a definition of
holiday in the municipal code. It kind
of broadly refers to any federal or
state holidays. Um, and then I believe
the city could also uh establish a city
holiday by ordinance as well. Um, so
that that's where we're getting the
definition of holiday there.
>> But that's actually a very excellent
suggestion of of cleaning that up. And
again, we really just don't want to
hamstring ourselves for especially, you
know, special events that that
applicants go through and and that's
been sort of that question of, well,
what can they do signwise? I'm like,
well, um, [laughter]
>> got to get it declared special event, I
guess,
>> right? where
>> city holiday
>> whereas it if if the if the signage is
turned in with the special event they've
already cleared the barrier they're not
going to do anything and we don't need
to take a look at it so that we'd much
rather prefer that than the ladder
>> can I ask on number three underneath
that um
it's talking about again these are
exempt and it's the non-eliminated signs
but not limited to credit card
acceptance I get that business hours
open and closed I get it or menus use.
I didn't see a menu um portion section
in here.
>> Yeah, because that's content based. We
don't want to do that anymore.
>> That's why it says display instead.
>> Should we be taking menus out of this?
>> Um it's it's we could in theory. Um
again,
>> it says it's an aggra of only two square
feet. That's aggra. That's all of it.
So, you're going to get a whole lot in
two square feet. That's sort of the
point because it is there is the display
sign that allows for that sort of
additional larger display and that's
already caked into the ordinance. So
again the intention and we could remove
menu as an example which is fine by me
because again the real reality comes
back to is we want to exempt out
aggregate of two square feet your hours
of operations your your credit card
acceptance do you accept Bitcoin be my
guest I don't care
our current
>> menu been such a a hot button you know
how many do you have what do you do it I
my suggestion would just take menus out
because it's more subjective again my
menu is different than yours than the
credit card in the open and close
>> would be happy to take it out. So,
>> okay.
Um,
number four, the special event. Now,
we're into decorations, not signs, but
we're talking about decorations here,
obviously, non-commercial messages.
They can go up 30 days before an event
and and must be down 72 hours after an
event. Um
this is just confusing but a bit ULFest
is that the whole month. So if they
declared that that's the 1st of December
through the whatever it is um does that
mean that they need to when they declare
those events they need to have a start
and a finish date knowing that we want
it after the Christmas tree burn? We
don't want it on the 27th of December if
that's what we're looking for. 30 days
prior to an event seems a lot. Going
back to Ula Fest as an example, that
means November one you could start
putting up Christmas tree decorations
and stuff. Um I I get it when it's maybe
a Danish days, a one-day event. Even
that is a long way out to go 30 days
prior to a fiesta or a Danish days. I I
so that that's a long period of time and
kind of a short time to take it down
afterward. in some of the others. I
think we've got like a a seven day after
an event on some things and I don't know
that that's just my thought and I always
use look for the extremes that we would
start getting Christmas decorations up
today if if you starts on December 3rd
at the parade which I think that's kind
of what they declare it to be. It's not
the not just the holiday.
So I think we ought to just look at that
think it through. So we we can um the
reality is this is really it's a
twofold. One is trying to cover Yilifest
Halloween and other you know Fourth of
July etc. But also we we've had requests
in the past for businesses that
celebrate you know one year
anniversaries and can they put up
balloons etc. So most certainly we can
quantify it with the time difference. So
if you're doing a one day one to three
day event 72 hours makes sense. Um and
then for longer events we can extend out
the time to uh remove the decorations.
>> Yeah.
>> So be happy to include sort of that time
frame.
>> Tighten that up just just a bit was was
my thought.
>> I like that approach too.
>> Yeah. But there's also the question of
when you can start putting up the
decorations. I understand
some flexibility on the back end. But
you know can they according to this they
can start 30 days before the
>> sale
>> the special event.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And
>> and then they have to take it down 72
hours afterwards.
>> Correct. And and so part of it is maybe
there's the event of a sale and event of
something like a popup whatever they're
doing in in the park or at Demirus
Square or somewhere. And the other is
these official city holiday festivals
that you know two classifications.
>> Yeah, it sounds like we may just need to
cut a se two separate exceptions and
that's again not a problem. That's the
intention of sort of this study session
is to to get that and I know we try to
combine it as much as we can into one.
But yeah, it's fine. If it makes
application much easier, I'm all for
that.
>> Um on down lower 1113-4
But before you get there, I have a
question on five.
>> Sorry.
>> Uh this is uh a fixed to vehicles. It
says magnets, vinyl application,
other forms of material
uh of permanent adhesive. I question the
word permanent. Magnets aren't
permanent. Vinyl applications can be
peeled off. Uh what was the intent there
with permanent adhesive? the the the
intent is to show that the that the sign
is is sort of a fixed in some way, shape
or form that doesn't appear to be
temporary, which is why such signage
such as banner, boards, paper, wood,
material, any other sort of temporary
sign um is not included. And and here
it's not. We don't have many vehicles
that do that. In other jurisdictions,
we've had vehicles where they parked the
car and they put the sign in the window
pointing out, you know, and it's a
cardboard sign. So again, just trying to
differentiate between someone that has a
has gone through the process of of
either vinyl or putting window
lettering, etc. that is really, you
know, trying to make it not into a a
moving billboard per se, but you know,
directing traffic to a particular area.
It's just trying, you know, we're just
trying to differentiate a a permanent
versus something that's temporary and
attention getting.
>> Would the as any examples would the
signs on the trolley be exempt under
this?
>> Those are already exempt. They're
different sections. So, yeah.
>> Okay. And what about the signs on the
roofs of the Domino's Pizza delivery
guys?
>> Again, that's that's typically fine.
We're trying to walk that fine line to,
you know, differentiate between the two.
>> Okay. Well, and and I brought that one
up in particular because it says that
the sign can't project above
or from the vehicle profile.
So, by that definition, dominoes
shouldn't be able to do that.
>> Yeah, we again, we can take a look at
that and try to make that work. or
[clears throat] just walking a fine line
and we'll try to sniff that out.
>> Okay.
>> Such as exceptions being made for
delivery vehicles or something,
commercial de delivery vehicles.
>> Yeah, that's one way of doing it. So,
>> um and under four, again, I'm just
trying to emphasize the the 30-day and
the 72 hours,
you can do it three times a year. That's
times 30 days. That's I'm beating a dead
horse. That's 90 days. That's a quarter
of the year. You could have stuff up.
So, let's just if we can
>> squeeze it down. Thank you.
>> We We will We will squeeze that down.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Okay. You had um on 1113-4
number one offsite signage. Um, I
really, if we, if we turn to page 36 for
definition of off site signage, now I'm
not saying the other one was any better.
It's probably the same. It's right in
the middle of page 36. Offsite signage
that is not located on the same legal
lot of the business.
>> Okay, that that's where it's saying.
So that means that if you're in a square
and you're on the you can put signs
remotely throughout the square if you
got permission obviously from yourself
or from the landlord. And I was always
of the belief even talking to tenants of
mine that you cannot put an off-site
sign down there. the signs need to be on
your frontage, your lineage, your It
doesn't matter that it's all on one
legal lot or you can have people putting
signs around um off of their off of
their
businesses. So, I don't know if the if
there's a better definition or if you
guys chatted about that, but offsite
didn't to me mean off the property that
you have your one of 17 businesses on
and you can do it anywhere on there. It
had to be in front of your business or
over your door.
>> I seem to recall from our previous
discussion and I think you brought it up
Erin about it being proximate to the
business and you even talked about some
distances I think but primarily it was
with I think Arames.
>> A frames and that's in here as 5t from
your primary door which is great. Yeah.
>> But I always thought Jack you've been
around it enough too that the signs had
to be on your exterior. walls of your
property, not your neighbors because
they don't care,
>> but you're on one legal lot. So,
>> so you might be able to cover this on
and we haven't gotten there yet under a
sign program for uh a square where you
have a number of businesses. One area
that the developer or the owner could
come up with a signed program for
uh that business
location
and get the program approved through the
city. And then it would be a
collaboration between the owner or the
landlord,
>> the city, and
>> but we still need to define off-site
signage because the landlord's going to
come in and say, "Well, it doesn't it
says off-site signage could be anywhere
on my piece of property. I've got 15
tenants, and so I'm coming in with this
signage all around off my off of the
rental spots. There are some very small
um shops in town, retail shops, very
small, 300 feet, 400 square feet, 200
square feet, and they don't maybe have
enough walls, so they want to put them
down and across. And I don't think
that's maybe what what I want to see
happen. I'd rather have I'd rather have
site signage defined a little bit
better.
>> Well, 1134 says that it's not allowed.
>> Uh
>> it's under prohibited signs. Uh
>> yeah, off-site signage, but the
definition of offsite is the legal lot
that you have your rental on.
>> Yeah, it sounds like we can
>> adjust it to both off-site and off-
premise. So that's
>> perfect. I think it used to say off
premise. You're absolutely correct
instead of offsite before.
>> We can we can make that adjustment.
>> Um under number four on this the digital
display LED. I get it all. I understand
it.
Can we should we say that you can't have
those inside or outside or seen from the
street because you can get a lot of neon
and stuff inside and can we even
regulate that if it's back 15 [laughter]
18 in from the window? Maybe we cannot.
>> That's a tough one. I mean there's a
couple businesses where you can see the
LEDs through the window. They see the
signage in there and um
>> and we never we never say I know we do
this thing of 18 inches be after the
window. You can do signage and you're
not But the neon that you can still
seems like it should be maybe a little
tighter. But um my thought
>> well and that this that starts to really
blur that line of where do we sort of
draw the line
>> of of what we can and cannot see. So,
you know, in this instance, I'm, you
know, some businesses, it's just easier
for them to do the digital display,
especially on the menu boards if
they're, you know, coffee shops, etc.
>> Hadn't even thought about that. That's
the hot thing right now.
>> Yeah, it's just easier. So, I, you know,
I'd rather keep to just regulating what
we can see from the right away.
>> Um, one thing that we can add in is the
amount of lumens. So, that's that's
definitely one way to regulate it. And
again trying to be in a very succinct
objective manner that if we can see the
lumens at night or you know that that's
going to be the easiest way to do it. So
>> okay
>> it's all I have on 16
>> 17
um perhaps number seven at the very top
because these are prohibited signs. It
starts number seven outdoor decorations
maybe comma except as a as allowed under
1113-3
which we just went over which is 11 the
exempt signs which is for the festivals
and boppity bop just because wait a
minute you can't do out there I can't I
thought we could do it here just you
know more info sometimes better
um this poll sign number 20 on that page 17. And if we go to a definition of
poll signs on page 37,
we um we give a definition of a poll
sign, but we are saying the poll signs
are prohibited. So I I don't know. I I'm
just I'm just wondering.
>> I want we want the definition there so
we can make sure it's prohibited.
>> Okay. Okay. That's and and that's fine
because we always allowed pole signs in
our current. You can have a pole sign.
If you have 100 feet, you can go up in
the air with one. We're now saying two,
which makes it nicer.
Okay.
>> Yeah. I want to be able to say nah, no
pull. So you here's the definition.
You've met the definition, so no pull.
>> Y.
>> So
» I don't have anything.
>> Well, I have a question.
>> Go ahead. I'm sorry.
>> On sign programs,
uh, I couldn't find a definition of a
what a sign program is.
>> We may have inadvertently left out the
definition. We'll we'll add the
definition in. [clears throat]
>> Yeah. And uh what would be the and I
alluded to this earlier. What would be
the process
uh for uh individual signs on businesses
uh that are included under the sign
program.
>> So typically a sign program includes a
list of conditions that run with the lay
of the land. So it's very similar to
conditional use permit. So once those
get codified um and then they are passed
by resolution, we keep the resolution.
We actually do have a few sewing
programs here in town that are already
active um and some of them it's hit and
miss because they're not consistent.
Some of them say it can be approved at
staff level, some say they can't. And so
um but the reality comes back to is the
whole point of the sign program is it is
that there's a program that's laid out
it's particularly when you have these
smaller shops and the you know trying to
direct people to where they need to be
or larger shopping centers and the
program just basically dictates how the
signs are supposed to look where they're
supposed to be located and if you meet
that criteria city staff should be able
to um process a a permit over the
counter. And so that that's the
intention of the sign program is as
tenants come and go um they have a sign
program that's approved a new tenant
comes in it's like I want to do a new
sign. Okay well this has a sign program
please see attached and have your sign
do everything towards the sign program
and we approve it call it a day. Okay.
Well, that was uh second going to be the
second part of my question that uh in
exactly ceremon the situation you uh
suggested
uh uh new business comes in.
Uh would and and you know everything is
according to what was in the the sign
program that was approved for that.
Would that person actually have to come
to the city again or can the landlord or
owner approve it or do both have to
approve it?
>> Yeah, again we I mean landlords
typically don't really say much unless
there's a new placement. Um it's again
it's a signed permit. It just would as a
condition of the sign permit would
simply say if it meets the intent of the
sign program, you know, city staff is
able to approve the permit through an
administrative sign permit. Done. So
again,
>> it does say sign face,
>> right?
>> You can you can do that.
>> Yeah. And that that's the point of the
conditions is is is to have that. Now
again a sign program is is different.
You want to each that means each site is
different. So it's just let's pretend
that the Neielson Center one day goes
through a massive fateless and they they
want a a sign program with a large pylon
sign. Well maybe you want to see what it looks like each time a new
tenant comes in. So we can condition
that the pylon sign specifically when a
new tenant comes in it goes to the DRC.
You write the condition as such. So that
that's that's the beauty of the sign
program is it is much more sight
specific and and the controls of how we
want to see it.
>> Yeah. Well, the having the definition
would help a lot there.
Uh
>> I have nothing else on 17.
>> Neither do I. I have nothing on 18.
>> 18. Um
I just a couple
uh silly stuff I I suppose. Um
re uh let's go to sign permit to a
wherever we see review authority.
um
sign we had to say signage review
authority because you do say it in some
places and capitalize it because I know
what you mean. Um it's so if we just you
know this it's it's in your box your
table signage review authority and just
capitalize them. It's a couple places it
is and couple it is not. Same with B.
Number one, administrative sign permit
capitalized way at the bottom last
paragraph.
Administrative sign permit is not
capitalized. I'm just saying just you'll
probably catch that consistent.
>> Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, that's that's um
>> Yeah,
>> appreciate it. Um and then number three
at the top of that page sign program I
put big question define this and you
you've got that and you got that and so
we'll get a definition as to how you get
a a uh because it's required and so
therefore we had a yeah so that was it
there.
>> I have one other question that I skipped
over on the sign program.
uh who is responsible for the
maintenance of the the signs?
>> So, it's typically always the landlord
or tenant. So, again, we're we're not
responsible for that. We just do the
approval.
>> But would uh be the would it be the
landlord's responsibility to notify a
tenant that, hey, your your sign needs
to be repainted or freshened up or
whatever needs to happen. the latch
broke, you need to fix it.
>> So, is that something?
Some landlords don't do that. The city
will come give you a notice and say this
is in disrepair and then the landlord
will go to the tenant and say get it
repaired or vice versa and they'll get
it repaired. But these these ticks go
against the business owner as we know.
I've argued for years and I always lose
to the city attorney that we should be
finding people and then it should go
against the property owner so that
there's an enforcement mechanism instead
of a business just closing up and going
way back to Santa Barbara and leaving
$1,000 worth of fines and um not we're
trying to collect money. It's just we're trying to enforce. So it's kind of
up to correct me if I'm wrong landlord
and tenant working it out. it is and I
mean if it comes to disrepair then then
you we we can find the tenant and that's
what we typically have done is we we
find the tenant um now we have informed
the landlord and some tenants aren't
happy about that but you know that's just our way of particularly when
we're setting a second and third notice
that's when we start slapping on the
landlord. Um, but we've really tried to
make it at at best practices. Once we
send one notice out to a tenant, we
actually also CC the property owner that way there's no sort of
miscommunication. Well, this is the
first time we've heard of it. Well,
we've CCD you like six, four copies, so
I don't know [laughter]
where your mail has been gone. So,
>> so what happens and the business gets a
notice from the city
and
you know they you don't know it but
they've already decided to close the
business and
the next day they're gone and their old
sign is hanging there. Is it then become
does it become the responsibility of the
landlord to do that? Yeah, it ultimately
eventually does fall into the the
landlord, which is why we have a signed
maintenance section. So, basically sort
of outlines, you know, what that upkeep
is. And then, you know, in that same
subsection that there's a notice to
repair, you know, the director or my
designate, you know,
>> I was just thinking in particular with
the sign program,
uh, who's who's responsible for what?
>> Again, each reading this, it wasn't
clear to me. Each sign program you got
to treat it as its own entitlement. So
it's not all sign programs are created
equal. So again those are exceptions
that will carry conditions and those are
discussions that happen at each and
every individual sign program and not
every not every property will have a
sign program and that's typically
um it's meant for larger properties but
is also meant to assist some of our
smaller properties that have multiple
tenants.
>> Yeah. Well, I understand you don't have
to have a sign program, but if you do,
the the city should have some framework
uh size, you know, some objective
standards that go into that signed
standard or that uh
>> program program.
>> Yeah. And even even if the doesn't if it
stays silent, it it kicks back to our
code, which our code has, you know, the
basic maintenance requirements that need
to get done. So,
Raphael, also that I believe you have
the findings for the sign program and
the ordinance as well. So those would
need to be met um for the sign programs.
>> Yes, that's correct.
>> So section E has the findings that would
need to be made to approve those
anyways. So
>> okay,
page 20 or
>> I just have a
six in the bottom paragraph. It just
says established by the director. I
think that's community development
director. No big deal. But catch that.
>> Just uh uh uh one comment on the
uh example up at the top of where it
says solving shop.
You've got XY plus XY. But down here
when you're talking about tutoring,
you're using ABCD.
I think you should use ABCD in the you
know
uh in both instances again just for
consistency.
Okay, page 21.
Um
my here's my question on number seven at
the top is measurement of the building
facade. um
from building frontage and then we slip
we we go over to the facade. I think we
had to just keep it building frontage
but nevertheless um
facing to the street. My question here
is corners. Is it then streets?
>> Yeah, it actually is. So yeah,
>> so maybe parallel to the street and put
s in parenthesis so people realize that
it's both. I I figured it was but
>> yeah. Oh, very much. That's the great
thing about having a corner lot is you
get more signage from your pitch. So
» okay.
>> Um
one under that design and construction e
this is this freestanding signs and you
know this is a new new uh word that's in
our code as far as I know. I remember
polls I remember monument but not
freestanding. So, it's good that we have
it there. Um,
I'm I'm I'm not um I guess I'm not
understanding. The freestanding signs
utilizing bases should be a minimum one
foot in height off the ground and three
high bases shall be this this.
But then if we if I go to page 22 and
23, 22 at the bottom is where
freestanding signs start as a header
number three. And it starts going up
saying under freestanding signs. They
have a maximum height of six feet and
they can be 32 square feet. And I'm
maybe I'm getting them confused. No,
that freestanding and this free
standing. You've caught an error and it
should that should read monument sign
that section
>> ex or Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
Isn't that the monument over there? Yes.
>> Okay. We have those smaller freestanding
I
>> correct. So that should so that is
so that should flip to monument sign
standards instead. Yep.
>> Versus freestand.
>> Yep. Under three.
>> Yep.
>> Yes.
>> And that's what I had on 20. Um I have a
question about illumination.
Um
on uh C it says uh for uh externally
illuminated signs it says low lumen
output but internally we specify a
maximum. Should we specify a maximum for
the uh externally illuminated signs as
well? Yeah, we we we could um again the
external illuminate those are a little
bit since we're trying to not have the
internal illuminated ones we most
certainly can um and I can take a look
and do a little bit of research on
what's the best practice on on that
>> uh look at uh uh color temperature
uh
» I think at what point do you want to
[laughter] regulate this thing to
I mean, I I agree. Some some
temperatures are
>> soft white lights or do you want uh
>> there's there's candle, there's soft
white, there's there's a lot. I think at some point
>> and some are are very bright even though
the lumens are the same, they appear
much brighter.
>> The the blue hue
>> Yeah. when you get up to the the 5,000
Kelvin.
>> I I wish we would handle that with our building lighting, too, because
some people have gone with these very
bright. I'm sure they meet the lumens.
Um, right. I don't know how that's ever
been handled.
>> Yeah, we can we could probably extend it
with foot candles would probably be the
best uh go about for that. So, again,
it's more of like the foot candles is
just how how far away you can see it
versus lumens. Um, so most certainly we
can add in the foot candle. Um, and then
again, the color, I get it. Some colors
look, you know, better than others. Um,
>> it's a discussion. I just don't
>> in the same area. Can you have color
changing lights as in the park?
>> Well, the that's city facility city
stuff. That's exempt. So, we're not I
mean,
>> no, but I mean, could somebody do that
for an externally lit sign and have
color changing uh uh illuminating?
>> In theory, yes. So, we could probably
want to set that to one solid color only
and let the business No flashing.
>> No flashing, which flashing is already
in. So that's already prohibited. So if
it's flashing and that's already
prohibited, so um but limiting to one
solid color is probably the best bet.
>> Yeah. Yeah. They do have a definition of
foot candle, but yeah, you're right to
that.
>> The last thing on that, again, hate to
beat it up. C1E,
freestanding signs again at the top
there. So C1E on 21
I wrote here. What are these? I I don't
know what these freestanding signs are
that have to be a foot off the ground
but can't go more than
>> free. It's a monument sign. So again,
it's that's it needs. So originally the
freestanding was just in one category.
Um and then upon sort of reflection, we
had this thing called a kiosk sign,
right?
>> But it was it's
a kiosk cuz it move there was a whole
bunch of things. So instead it's like
okay when we break out and say monument
and a freestanding because really that's
what it is is and that we have a
freestanding you know menu signs that
>> but they got to be they can't be more
than 3 ft. Monuments can be six and a
half
>> right. So this so this design and
construction is more so referring to
monument signs because again you want
that base to at least be 1 ft up to give
the sign height and then you want to max
out that base on a monument sign to
three. just about the bases here.
Correct. These standing signs using
bases. The bases should have a minimum
of one foot.
>> Correct.
>> Maybe just put comma. The bases should I
read it four times and and went what? I
thought it had to be a max of six. Yeah.
Okay.
>> We'll add an illustration. We'll add an
illustration this. I think that'll help out.
>> And it says they have to be decorative
and located in a planter. Correct.
>> Yeah.
» If they're located in the planter, you
can't see them, right? Oh, that's the
point of the base is the base is to
elevate the sign up post. The post or
the base, it elevates the sign up. So,
>> u but again, you still have a maximum
that you had adhere to, but what what
you don't want to see is the sign droop
all the way down to the bottom beyond
the base and no one can read it because
again, the intention of the monument
sign isn't for a pedestrian, it's for
the motorist.
» I'm on 23 if if we pass 22. I don't know
if we have
>> I I just have a a question on
freestanding signs in residential
districts and it talks about uh
one per property or residential unit
with multiple units are located in
common. So uh a house with an ADU
couldn't have two. It could still only
have one.
>> This is our way of calling it a real
estate sign without calling it a real
estate sign.
>> [laughter]
» because it it's actually all meant to be
a real estate sign. So, um you got to
kind of read between the lines a little
bit. Um because time of display is
actually what keys it into what it
actually is.
>> Seven days of sale,
>> right? Exactly. So, seven days of sale
are rented. And so, the reality is this
is just a a a for rent sign or a for
sale sign, but we just can't call it
that due to contentbased messaging.
>> Okay. But in in residential districts,
you can put up a a sign
as long as it meets the the size. And uh
so given that, I was wondering what
happens in mixed use where you have a
business on the ground floor and
residential on the top.
>> It depends on again the the sign of what
we're talking about. So, if you're
talking like the non-commercial message
sign,
>> Yeah.
>> then if it's got on the the residentials
on the second and third floor and they
have a window and as long as it's two
square feet, knock your two and a half
square feet, knock your socks off, put
it on the window. I can't I'm not going
to control the message even if it's the
most absurd message known to man.
>> Right.
And our ordinance does say businesses or
entities on the first floor, put your
signs on first floor, second floor, put
them on the second floor. So the
residents by definition is second floor.
Therefore, that's where it would end up
being.
>> Okay.
Uh on page 23,
just a a knit uh um at the very bottom
BC,
it says maximum 3 and 1/2 ft. It
probably should be a a maximum of three
and a half feet.
Just a knit.
Um I've got something on F on page 23
way up at the top. AB CDF
again this is I I I wrote this twice
here where we talk about we talked about
earlier time of display shall be
temporarily only placed prior and I
circled prior we need a definition of
prior as we spoke earlier and it's the
same down on G straight down on number
four placed prior to an event shall
temporarily be placed again that the
prior is again two days one day what
whatever that is and it's funny the one
down below says within two days you take
it off under G and you go up to F it's 7
days after the event I know one's a
banner and one is not a banner one is a
freestanding sign but one is two days
after one's seven days after maybe
because banners are more offensive
they're bigger I don't really know but
prior for certain and it would be better
to me that they would all be consistent
within 3 days they got to be down or two
days and prior x amount for because we
had that earlier in this in
>> yeah earlier we talked about three days
they have to be done so you know
>> so again the freestanding sign on on the
poll or the the freestanding sign all
other districts again is is saying it
without trying to say it's a real estate
sign more you know that's what it is
>> seven days um and then again and then
again F talks about example real estate
sign shall be uh removed within 7 days
after the property sold lease or rented
a sign uh you know a sign for an on-site
sales event shall be removed within 7
days after the event. So again trying to
give those examples the banner sign is 2
days and that again that's typically
because
again what is the event? The event is
[clears throat]
um
>> cowboy Christmas not in our town but
I'll I'll use it cuz they're coming up.
Uh so the event is cowboy Christmas that
is the time frame. Uh so that is the
prior to the event and then so it's up x
amount of days prior to said event and
then they just we can give them more
time. We just don't want ultimately in
the end we want to shorten those banner
signs simply because those are
>> let's be honest the cheaper made cheaply
looking signs so we want to just shorten
that down. Is two days enough?
Probably not. Maybe extend it out. We
can extend it to seven just so we're
consistent. That'd be fine by me.
>> I'd rather not. But
>> I I'd rather not either.
>> I like the two. I I thought two days
after an election, you should have your
signs done and two days after the house
sells get your sign down,
>> right?
>> Yeah. I want to see it shorter than
longer, but that's just kind of prior
something prior as we discussed. I don't
know what that answer is.
>> All right. Um I can noodle on this one.
Maybe extend it out to maybe five days.
That that gives enough time because
usually these banner signs, Lisa,
they're they're down pretty quick,
aren't they? So would you say about
>> usually after
>> two day? Yeah. A day or two. Yeah. So
they're down. We just again the real
estate signs a little bit tougher simply
because you're you're putting them into
the ground
>> and then some guy's got to come and pick
it out or unless you were me and I took
mine out as soon as they clos the sale
because I didn't want the sign up
anymore. [laughter]
So
» that was all I had on 23.
>> And am I correct that A-frame is only
allowed in uh commercial zoning
districts?
Yes,
>> that's
>> yeah only only in in all commercial
zoning districts. And this was one we
had a
>> they're not allowed in residential
districts.
>> No. And it's [clears throat]
fairly rare that we'll see them in in
residential districts. Usually you you
may see them in associated with uh the
schools. That'd be the one sort of
caveat or a church. Um, which again we
[clears throat]
we can also make sure that the PI is
covered in there. Now that I'm really
thinking about it, so we'll we'll make
sure the public zones
>> I was thinking of uh at the the church
down here where they have their food
program. They usually have an a sign
A-frame sign set up out there, but it's
just for the day,
>> right? And the food program is is uh is
SNAP and other government sort of funded
which is now covered from exempt. So
again, we're just really trying to make
sure we cover our basis to make sure
that th those type of things are are
exempt.
» Okay.
I've got a couple things on 24 if we're
there. I don't know.
>> We're there.
>> Um
I know what we're trying to do here in
the A-frames. Um, I was against ever
allowing A-frames, but I lost that one
also, so I'm fine with that. Um, so I
know that what you're what we're trying
to do is saying the the when you look at
G really gets into the meat of it, um,
under under the G at the top, it's after
30 days, then the verbiage needs to
change
to something else. And then I guess
after 30 days, you can go back to the
verbiage you had before 30 days. and
every you could just keep doing two of
them throughout the year. I I think it's
going to be really tough to to enforce
that. I know what we're trying to do to
not just have it look like it's a
permanent one. And I like that we it c
it has to go in. I disagree with five
o'clock because right now the sun went
down at five and there are restaurants
open and it says the earlier five
o'clock or earlier sunset or the
business closing it ought to be the
later sunset or the I don't but
certainly when the business closed now
you can't illuminate them but there's
lots of lights out there on the
sidewalks that that people can still see
those happy hour signs or or soup signs
whatever it is. We'd be happy to
eliminate it just to make it easiness. I
mean, again,
>> I do.
>> Yeah. It's
>> we just don't want them out at night.
Yeah.
>> This is this is the first cut and I as
I've said to our council um and I'll say
it to y'all.
>> Um you know, we're not going to get it
right the first time. Well, we got to we got to let it start.
>> We got to let it cook and figure
[laughter] out the the spice content.
>> No. And uh if we don't get it right the
first time, then we may need to dial it
down or may need to dial it up, but we
got to got to give it one crack first.
So, um I understand I I think the
intention was that we didn't want
A-frame signs in the dark and then
someone hitting it and so but close a
business. I mean, obviously, you know,
sun went down pretty early today, um as
it's winter now
>> and so um yeah, close a business is just
as good. So,
>> okay.
Um, under banner signs, number two, um,
we go down to they're allowed, one per
business, [snorts] 20 square ft. It's
very large, 2 ft by 10 ft, very large.
Um, location on a structure, not to be
located above the first story or on a
roof. Um, shall not be placed on a
fence. It's the time of display. So,
it's a maximum of seven consecutive days
up to twice a year in the VMU district.
So,
and then if you look up the definition
of what a sign is, it's anything that
you want it to be. And so, I use a an
example of Denmark Square. And you've
got
I put a banner up that says now open.
Then I move it over to the next one. Now
open. I go this next one. Now open. We
just keep doing it around until we get
seven consecutive days till it loops me
twice and there's 15 shops. I just think
it's excessive. I I don't know how we
what what the better thing is, but I
just it just banners again. I I can't
believe that we're really allowing
banners on businesses. I know what
they're designed to do. Having a sale.
So the shoe store has a sale twice a
year and it's up for seven days. Outside
it's 14. Makes sense.
It can be abused where that sign because
it doesn't have to say sale. It can just
say open come visit. Then I just give it
to my neighbor and the neighbor and the
neighbor and we just have these banner
signs up all the way around. I'd rather
have it say something like and maybe we
can't control content
>> sale. No.
>> Or special event.
>> No,
>> it just it just it can say anything
because you look in definition sign. It
can say anything we want to say. Now
open come visit the square. And we just
keep passing that thing
>> around and around.
>> That's content. And we don't we're we're
already So the problem is right now with
our banner signs is one,
it doesn't even limit. There is no time
duration. It allows it, believe it or
not. It's there but it's it's basically
it's some convoluted
10 days before opening 5 days after
opening
at less than four square ft and then can
be done if this is this special. It's completely convoluted whereas this
is much easier to enforce. Now
>> could we make it smaller than 20 square
ft?
>> We most certainly most certainly can um
>> with 10 you know
>> we can make it extremely
performance-based. So again by
performance space meaning if you're in
50 50 square 50 linear feet is pretty
much the cut off. So one we can change
it to where it says number of signs one
per business or property or one per
property. So then now you're really
beginning to limit like hey man sorry
you can't pass it out. It's one per
property. Um two is you we can go down
you know 20 square ft we can bring it
down to 16. Um 12 is the lowest you
should probably go for these things. Um
but again, we're really just trying to
strike this balance of we don't get many
banner signs. The most times we actually
get asked for banner signs. And correct
me if I'm wrong, Lisa. That's typically
when a business wants to open up
>> or close. Those are typically the only
times we have probably maybe I can count
on my hand the number of times someone
has asked for a banner sign for like a
special sale,
>> but it's mainly just revolving around
those two items. is now granted we have
had a certain business that's had
>> an extended amount of uh
>> band of signs
>> closing sale [laughter]
» hence again time place manner um which
we which adds us so
>> I'm if you you know 20 was a number that
originally it was down to 16 then we put
it to 20 I mean you know we can go
either or um you know
>> I just like them smaller I mean
>> yeah 16 16 is now you're at the 4x4,
>> right?
>> Um, and again, we can keep it at 20 and
say if it's between if you're over 50,
you can get 20. Uh, if you're under 50,
hey, you can you got to go down to to to
12 or 16.
>> There you go.
>> I like that. And I I like the idea of
per property also, unless you find some
pitfall with that. that would take care
of the
>> the only thing with per property is if
one person has a sale twice a year and
he's used up the entire properties, you
know, then you get into how come he got
it twice or she got it twice and so I I
get that. It's just to me it was an
awful lot and then they were so big and the thing about the size too, if we
think about our community, this isn't we
don't have a freeway running through
town where you've got to have something
that massive to catch it. things are
going kind of at a pedestrian pace here,
even if you're in a car. So, I don't
know that you need a great size to draw
that level of advertising.
>> We can tighten it up. Um, we could
definitely break it out a little bit
further um and take a look through our
GIS what our linear feed is and then
just do a quick query and then try to
come up with obviously anything under 25
you go down to 12. Again, we're really
just trying to make sure you expand the
space out. Um and then obviously 32
square feet it we're really looking at
Neielson's and right
>> and and uh the merkantiel and then out
you know
>> those are big
>> but I'll be happy to come up with
performance standards based on this you
know conversation and um amend as
needed. So
» my my last one on 24 is maybe I'm just
not following it. Um permanent signs at
the very bottom.
Um
permanent signs are going to be your your your blade signs are going to
be your wall signs. They're going to be
your ground sign. I so I'm not really
following that. The maximum
signage size allowed should be 20 square
feet. By the way, same as the banner
total
20 the maximum. It's not per sign square
feet or the one square foot per lineal.
Whichever is less, was it not whichever
is more?
>> Yeah. No, it wasn't that's the DRC did
want the less. And again, it comes back
to at that point now you're really
beginning to just pick and choose what
you want. Um, do you want a very large
>> ridiculous that that they I mean and
look they that's what they recommended.
That's fine.
>> It does and that's where the sign
program comes in and that's again it
it's it's basically it's a I call it the
choose your own adventure map. And so um
there's the easy way. You can do it this
way and call it a day or if you really
want to go out there at gusto and you're
very adamant then we'll give you a path
out. Um it just it's you'll have to ask
for the exceptions. Um
so again we're we're
>> yeah I I to me I
it should be on we use this linear
frontage so that there's a increase if
you're bigger and you're decreased if
you're smaller which makes perfectly
good sense. I know it's subjective that
a very small shop could would come in
and go, I want I want 20 square feet of
signage and I've only got X amount of of
L feet. I got my or I got my 20 ft so I
can have my 20 square feet so I match it
on both.
>> And then you've got someone like again
Copen House, Kahuna, um the big the big
guys in in town that 20 square feet.
None of these signs I I could walk you
up and down the street, none of them are
going to meet it. You're never going to
get those again. 20 is nothing. It's is
seven square feet. Eight square feet
signs. That's two and a half of them.
That's all that's all that a place can
ever have is two and a half signs. An
eight and an eight and a four. Done.
>> And again, that's where the sign program
allows in the asking for the exceptions.
And that's
>> I know, but man, now you got to appeal
and we know how those go and you appeal.
I I'm just I'm just surprised that DRC
went from
>> to know the exceptions would would go to
the DRC, right? They wouldn't be over
the counter,
>> right? Of course, they go to DRC
>> and then it goes to planning and then it
goes to city council and
>> so we so we can do is we can flag this
and then bring it to city council and
then um I mean I I see the argument for
it as well. Um usually as you have the
larger linear footage you go up. That's
what it's
>> which usually it's always been. Um you
have certain members in the DRC that
want to keep it small. Um
and I'm not doubting their judgment. I
just um I don't know if any of them have
businesses in town and realize that 20
square feet is not a lot for these large
Burkholmes bakery.
I mean an eight an eight and a four, you
know. Uh it's just it's they're
solving Bruco. I mean these are these
are big and these apply to hotels. I'm
assuming hotels aren't exempt. There's
not one hotel sign that's under 20
square feet in this town. So if they
ever change names, it's gone. They're they're they're not conforming
any longer.
>> Well, the structure I take the cork for
instance. The cork went out of business
and um the sign structure is there and
they're just changing the face of the
sign. This new ordinance says face
changes
off you go.
>> So a name change, business change is
okay.
>> You get a what it is. Well, you know, as
an individual, I'll go to city council
and say 20 is ridiculous. Win that or I
won't win that.
>> And and again, that's fine by us and
then we could go back a little bit and
start accepting things out where we say,
okay, well, if you're going to use a
blade sign, suspended sign, that's
exempted from it. If you're going to use
uh a if you're going to use awning sign,
that's also exempt. Okay. Well, now
what's left? So, [laughter] there's various ways to slice it. We we
can most certainly bring this to the
city council attention.
>> Well, and I know that there's an example
of the new shop that went in town, which
they have, you know, four or five signs,
maybe six signs because they went, "Oh,
I'll just do a bunch of small ones." And
this eliminates that because what are
you going to do 10 that are two square
feet? I mean, we we can do that. It's
going to be cluttered and it's going to
look ridiculous. And so, it's got to be
that that's another big shop in town.
And so, there's some really large shops
in town that that um the shoe store. I
mean, my gosh, 20 square feet, it's
really not a lot. But anyway, that's it
is what it is. That's just I'm just
voicing my
>> And the other the other way is is is 20
square feet, one square feet per line, a
maximum of 40. I mean there's there's a
ton of ways we can slice this. Correct.
So
>> correct.
>> All right.
>> Correct. So then it the bigger you are
you can go up to that and the smaller is that.
>> So we will we'll
>> it's just not one size fits all is my
point.
>> We'll do more analysis but [laughter]
your your point is taken on there.
>> Okay. Moving on. 25 and
>> can I ask 25 C obviously at the top. Is
that a multi-ten? Is that a directory?
Is that what that is?
>> No, it's just it's simply trying to
allow again this is one way of um trying
to solve a riddle for some of our
centers that we have in the downtown.
>> Okay.
>> Um allowing sort of this additional
signage through a sign program. And so
um you know we that's that's been a bone
of contention is well we're all the way
in the back. They can't see us. How do
we get people there? Well,
you you chose where you wanted to rent,
but um again, it's it's just trying to
figure out how we can do a multi-tenant,
you know, get some sort of sign program
that allows for direct just that
directory sign, but in a much more
tasteful manner.
>> No, that I I No, I get it. Um because
the next page has the directory sign.
The very next page has directory signed
with the definition. And I'm just
wondering, are we being redundant? Is
this multi-tenant signage? Seems like
that's a directory and we're allowing
one lineal square foot.
>> It's a little bit different
>> per storefront frontage. So again, if if
that's the case, if I've got 30 lineal
feet, I could have 30 square feet of
signage, but I can't because I can't do
it here. But here, if it's a
multi-tenant, I can. Or is it the
directory can be that big?
>> It's again, it's just more again, it's
entering into a sign program, which is
trying to add a little bit more
creativity. So you got you got to
remember that the sign program is your
ultimate sort of
>> passcode to unlock creativity. So you're
not locked in to the standards that are
sitting in there.
>> Okay.
>> And so while you can have a directory
sign you, yeah, you can have that all
day long. Um but then maybe you want to
do a painted wall sign with that has a
directory on it that's pretty large. And
so again, just trying to be more
creative with um the multi-tenants to
try to get them to unify under one sign
versus what's kind of being done right
now is and I don't want to name names,
but [laughter]
This might be a better way to sort of
help and alleviate that situation.
>> Got it.
That was it on 25.
>> Okay. I I have nothing on 26.
>> I have nothing on 26. I thought it was
redundant with directory and
multi-tenant. I couldn't understand it.
Sorry.
>> Nothing on 27 either.
>> Um 27
and I could be wrong and not reading it
correctly. It's monu monument sign. If
we go into the special requirements box,
um I I think that it would be clearer if
it would didn't say it said monument
sign. Instead of freestanding signage
under A and under D and under E, unless
I'm not understanding it. Uh, no. That's
that again was a l was a monument sign
that I I will take my air and my
lashings for not making sure those are
changed out that they should they should
read monument for all of them. So,
>> and then the the other thing is the the
sign the bottom box is that is called
out the display case. Can a can a menu
go in that? Is that what that is?
>> Yes, that's that's the intention of it.
Yeah. But again, we can't call it menu.
Yes, [laughter]
but you can. It's a display. Okay.
>> It's very much a display case. What it
displays, I don't know.
>> Usually a menu. [laughter]
>> Yes,
>> that is absolutely fine. And just a
clarification, if somebody wanted to put
a window that opens from the outside
that is a um what do you call it? A
boxed window, but you can't get to it
because it's got a a sheer panled wall
that you can't go in. You wouldn't call
it a sign. you go to the DRC and get
approval for a window that's exterior,
that's a display window that has a
locking key. I mean, I I don't Right. It
wouldn't be considered a sign.
>> Yeah, that's not considered a sign. And
it doesn't even go to DRC anymore. It
goes to us first. [laughter] So, Got
>> Yeah. I mean, it's Yeah. Again,
>> that's facads. Those are different.
We're we're talking pure signs here.
Like in this instance, a display case.
And I think we had one uh recently. for
forget which one that wanted this.
>> Park.
>> Parkplace. Yeah, Parkplace had a display
sign yet we didn't technically have the
regs for it. Don't ask. It's there now.
[laughter] So,
>> I get it.
» Okay.
>> 28.
I'm I'm curious as to under the box at
the top and the box at the bottom where
it says number of signs permitted.
You can only have one
of the window letterings. You can only
have one of these hanging suspended
sides. That's that's I'm reading that
correct.
>> You are correct. But so let's take
>> same with the wall sign on the Well,
that that gives you one on the next
page. It gives you one per public street
frontage, but this is just one and one.
>> So you can't have two of those.
>> And yeah, we want them mixed up,
>> right? So, we want them to one. And the
other uh issue here is um with the
window sign and and we want to make sure
you under special requirements that the
window sign a permanent window lettering
can extend to multiple windows.
>> Correct. Has to be one pane. It's only
25% or whatever the numbers are. Yeah.
Makes sense.
>> So, that is something I just now I'm
really thinking through because again,
if you're going to do it and you extend
it out, we should be able to extend it
out to Windows. So, we just want to
clarify that it could be on multiple
windows, but it'll be counted as one
sign.
>> Then the the only thing on on the bottom
of that page, which corresponds over to
um the wall signs, is something that
Brian Schneider brought up, 805 signs.
I've talked to him many times about
quarter inch or half inch thickness on
lettering. And his argument was the
shadowing. you get to a half inch and
the if you have a sign you have a light
over it it it kind of disappears a
quarter inch he believes is is good and
we over on on wall sign we do say
quarter inch under D but on this one we
say under B half inch um depth and one
is a bigger sign than the other one I
mean that'll either be consistent but
he's argued with me that quarter inch
looks better from a a lit sign with all
the shadowing that goes in even with the
sun down and things like that. But I
don't know why they picked quarter and a
half as differences signs
>> and in fact the wall signs much bigger.
>> Yeah, Brian did make this argument for
the projecting signs of letter depth and
that's in your blue folder.
>> Um type of sign should be top letter
depth of 1/2 should be one quarter to
match the wall sign specs plus carving
out. And we did have this discussion
with Brian um at DRC. he he was generous
enough uh to lend his um eyes to our
signed ordinance uh and reviewing it as someone who works in the industry. Um
so I I typically when it comes to that I defer to someone in the industry who
knows what they're doing and so more
than likely we'll we'll probably take
this into pretty good consideration as
part of the next iteration.
>> That's I figured it was a yeah slip up
or something. Who knows?
I have nothing else on that. Um
I'm a little worried about the mural on
page 30 as as we spoke earlier.
>> Yeah, we'll bet go back to 29 again
under definition of a mural. Shouldn't
that be in the definition section? I
know you have mural defined, but this
after reading this and what you have in
definitions, I think this is a much
better definition of a mural.
>> The mural should match. Yeah. So, that
one they'll they'll we'll re we'll make
sure the murals match definition wise
that uh 113.
>> Just take B out of here and put it into
the definitions.
>> Yeah. And that's just as good. So,
because I thought this was a good
definition.
>> Yeah. And again, this is uh a little bit
uh
PTSD from both Dave Fleshman and I. Uh
Dave's not here. I know Taylor's on the
line, but um you know, Dave had a a sign
uh mural go completely sideways as as
have I um in two municipalities um that
I formerly work at. So, a lot of it is
leading up to PTSD and really what it
comes down to is really trying to shield
those of you up here um and let us take
the hits and cover on that because again
it it's so subjective. So, we just want
to really just keep it to the box. Uh
but we'll bring this to city council's
attention.
» Okay.
» 30.
Nothing.
>> Uh I have a question under where it says
review authority D. It says with the
standards in subsection
which sub section
>> uh plug that hole to make sure it's a
standard of subsections um
with a standard in in this it should
read in this section. So, which would be
111310B.
Oh, yeah.
No, 11310B1 which is murals. So, that's
what it should be.
» And uh under uh the standards
uh does this apply anywhere in the city?
Yes.
>> Residential, commercial, industrial,
wherever somebody wants to put up a
mural. As long as they meet these
requirements, they can.
>> Yes. Because I I have seen where people
have turned their garage into a mural.
>> Yes, there's one right up the street.
>> There's one up the street. Looks good.
>> Yeah. I I happen to like it, but a lot
of people don't.
>> But uh that's PTSD. That's the whole
[laughter] point, right?
31.
>> Um,
>> I keep looking at Aaron. Bill, do you, know, speak up. I
>> Oh, I I will. I'm listening. You guys
have been very thorough and I truly
appreciate Aaron's business perspective
as he looks at this from both sides. You
have a large building and perhaps you're
being restricted or something could be a
nuisance because there are too many. So,
I'm I'm actually learning a lot and
listening. So, thank you both. It's
because we're been doing it forever,
right?
>> Yeah.
>> Um 31. We're back to the freestanding
sign.
>> Yes. The true freanding sign on to be
confused with the monument sign.
>> Yeah.
>> Maximum sign area. This is the four
square feet. I get it. The height is
five. Perfect. Um lower edge is three.
That's I mean it just works out. The
number is the question I have. None for
properties with less than 50 lineal
feet. Is it properties or is it
businesses or tenants? Sometimes we
interchange those um those words.
>> So, this is a new cut. The DRC's not
seen this. So, you are the first one to
see this. Um again, based on sort of the
review of the three meetings and really
trying to make see what's out there,
what we got.
This is a tough one because again, this
is my first cut at this is is really
I don't want to name names, but we have
certain properties
that uh certain business owners
want to have this type of signage and
they want them at uh the both public
entries that are available. So, if you
do it per business, you start
multiplying then
>> buy that
>> by that versus if you do it per
property, we're just saying, hey, we're going to cap you. And the reason
50 is chosen is we don't have many
properties with a 50ft linear frontage.
So what we're trying to avoid is if
you're a business, small business
and you don't have the 50 ft, you don't
get this because you you don't really
need it. Um we're really trying to
capture those businesses that are have a
deeper sort of lot depth or so hence why
that the 50 says you can't none. So 50
to 100 in looking at our GIS, we we have
quite a few there where these are
already at. And so we want to limit
those to to just say, "Hey, look, if
you're in the 50 to 100, you get one."
So landlord, you need to figure this
out. We're not going to figure it out
for you. You all need to figure this
out. And then at the greater than 100
linear feet, which we have a couple of
them, and again, these are these are
both. So, if you're corner corner lot
like the Copenhagen house, you you know,
you'll you'll have this. You'll be able
to do it no problem. Which kind of makes
sense. The larger the lot, the bigger
the more you're going to be able to get
this done. But the reality comes back to
we don't want a proliferation of these
on our smaller properties and business.
So, hence why one it says property
versus business and two was really
analyzing what we actually have out
there in terms of linear frontage. I'm
not married to this. This is my first
cut, but this is just trying to really
think this through.
>> It makes makes sense. You're um and it
wouldn't matter. So, use a business
anywhere they um you get one. You say
you've got 55 ft. It could be either for
the building or it could be for an
individual business. Again, it's up to
the landlord, the business guy. If it's
the same building and business, peasants
feast, well, then there's no arguments.
But if it's the other way, then there is
and you got to figure it out because
you're only getting one,
>> right? So, and that's that's the great
thing about it because in one particular
property that I'm thinking of,
>> they got two right next to each other,
>> right? And third one
>> and a third one on the other side. Okay.
Well, and two of them sit in planters
that are bolted to the ground and
>> god they look ugly. And so, [laughter]
it's just
>> why not solidify that? give them a
little bit larger space than what was
originally allowed, but say, "Hey, look,
if you can share and divide, be our
guest." But one, put it in a permanent
base. Two, put it at a height, max it
out. No additional signage, no
additional arrows, no nothing.
>> Um, again,
and then here
figuring out how does this play into the
extra 20 ft. Um, it may be exempted, it
may not. So, we we need to figure that
out as well. So, again, this is more of
a first cut. Um, and just trying to get
some sort of feedback on this one.
>> And if we go back to page 27, outdoor
display case sign. There's another 2 by
two. It's four square feet. I'm thinking
of a building that has three
restaurants. You could each have one of
those. It's the freestanding sign that
is limited by the lineage.
>> That is correct. And so and that's an opportunity here again with
our deeper properties that have
multi-tenants of three or four or five.
It's the opportunity to maybe they don't
do a menu sign in sign. Maybe they
instead do a directory saying these
three businesses are back here.
>> Yeah.
>> Cool. Fantastic. Great. That's one way
of solving that issue. Um but again this
is first cut. Be happy to to get some feedback on this but there is a
little bit of rhyme and reason to it.
>> Yeah. No, it it does make sense. I think
that this is just a observation. The
picture looks like it's a menu sign. And
so I'm reading I'm going, "Wait, is that
the menu sign?" So just make it blanked
out because it's like there's two
columns with prices, I think. I'm not
sure. No, [laughter]
>> because that's I thought that and then I
thought, "Oh my gosh, you're going to
have that that one square that has
them." And they're like, "Wait a minute.
We get all our menu signs per per
restaurant." Well, you do. Yeah.
>> Over on this other um display case.
>> Yeah. can blank it out and just put sign
right in the middle so people know to
sign. So
» that's all I had on 31.
>> Okay.
32.
>> Um
I I I missed it under the hanging signs.
Um but it caught me because I just w it
out and put hanging. We you guys changed
hanging I think to 8 ft. Yet still we
still have umbrellas and awnings at
seven. Yeah,
>> seven. And Brian mentioned that in his
also that it's sometimes hard with
eight, nine foot plates. You got to get
eight. You can't get a hanging sign and
is seven. I always thought seven was
kind of our standard, but you know, a
door is 68. So, I think that's what we
>> So, this one I just need to ping our
building official just to make sure
we're hitting minimum vertical
clearance. That's what it comes down to.
So, um I set it to eight because eight's
sort of that industry standard. Um, and
I noticed that we are already low and
I'm like, "Oh, they should really be
eight." Cuz again, in my walking
Copenhagen, I can extend my arm out and
grab one of those signs really easy. I
don't want to be able to do that.
>> Um, but again,
>> Brian does bring up a point. We do have
some
>> lowanging
>> lower hanging that are there. So,
>> um, and again, these are for new signs.
These are things we need to remember.
So, stuff that's there, you're
interchanging, it's existing,
non-conforming, and we leave it. We
leave it as is. It's it's what we're
looking for when you're doing a remodel
or new buildings. Now, now you got to
come into conformance. So, but still,
let me check in with the building
official on that one.
Can on 32 at the bottom I again you
explained um you have a non-conforming
sign and you so under non-conforming
sign AB
um two
this is non-conforming signs are allowed
if you change your face changes on a
non-conforming that's okay
but then under C number one it says
however
pro prohibited modifications. If you
change to another non-conforming sign,
it's prohibited. Well, you are changing
it from one non-conforming to another
one. By changing the face, it's still
non-conforming.
We need to be I don't know it maybe
change to another non-conforming sign,
comma, except for face changes as noted
above or except for the stuff noted one,
two, and three. Does that make sense?
>> Yeah, change another non-conforming sign
for the exception of section B. That's
really what it is because again we don't
want to change it. You don't want non
one non-conforming sign and then just
change to nothing. No. So we don't Yeah.
Then anything for 33 as we begin to
>> uh nothing on 33
for me anyway.
Um
can I 34 question?
>> Yeah, go ahead.
>> Way at the bottom directory sign. A sign
less than eight square feet that directs
pedestrians visitors to tenants.
>> That's
>> Yeah, we want that's the definition.
>> Yeah, we want to strike that. The eight
square feet just says a sign that
directs pedest Yeah. number 36 direct
where it says 18 square feet. Yeah,
eight square feet. Yeah, got it. Thank
you.
on 35. I don't know if it needs to be
done, but under event definition, maybe
we call it a special event throughout,
maybe we ought to call that special
event and not just event, but that's
just to be consistent.
>> So there's two types of events. There's the event that connects to
limited duration signage, which is
really what this is pointing to. So
again, set start date. So whether it's a
garage sale, open house, etc. Special
events, a whole different ball game. So
>> this is the federal holiday stuff and
elections.
Yeah. Yeah. So, whereas event is
actually more so I've put my house on
the market.
>> Yeah.
>> Putting my house on the market is the
event.
>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thank you.
» Can Did we ever address or we can't how
many flags you can have?
>> The flag ordinance isn't changing. So,
that's already been addressed and
already done. Um we've kind of gone
through that. We're not touching the
flag ordinance at this point. Um there
are a few properties still that are out
of whack with our ordinance. So we that
is on our to-do list for 2026 bringing
in lines
>> under this definition. A corporation
flag is fine. That's a
>> So yeah. So that's going to be stricken
out. Apologize.
>> Yeah, because we're going to take some
[clears throat] of that out, right?
Yeah. The Guinness one or whatever I put
out Carlsburg.
I don't I don't have anything else.
>> Neither do I.
>> I'm good, too.
>> All right. Well, again, thank you uh
council or commission for the feedback.
It was is much welcome. And and we're
beginning to be at the finish line and I know this has been a big push for a
lot of folks. Um but your feedback means
a lot. um especially coming from from
all y'all. So, really appreciate it.
>> Okay. So, uh there's no action or
anything we have to take on this?
>> No, not at this point. Yeah, we'll we'll
uh recue some of these and uh tee it up
and then we'll take your comments, do a
little bit more finessing, and then take
it to council with a couple of
considerations based on what
Commissioner Peterson mentioned.
Okay, moving on to item seven.
Planning commissioners comments that
nothing.
>> The only thing I have is echoing what
Jack said earlier and the appreciation
of staff. We had to get it started
somewhere. My gosh. You know, I know
it's been a long time coming, but it's
hard to get in and I'm looking at the
old one and the new one. I'm doing this,
>> you know, for about a day and a half.
>> Oh my gosh. You know, and I have some of
it memorized, some of it not. So, I know
what you guys went through to do that in
the middle of also other jobs that you
have. So, appreciate it.
>> No, and it's it's been good. I mean, I
know Lisa's does a lot of our signs and
I think on Friday, uh, we had a question
from an applicant and I'm like, "Hey,
use the new graphic [laughter]
because that explains it to a te exactly
what we're what we're using." So, um,
because the the definition didn't
change, so we went ahead and used the
new graphic for that.
>> And following up on that, you're I know
you mentioned it, design guidelines.
We're going to that that's going to be
tough too, isn't it?
>> It is and uh you know Lisa's
spearheading that and I have an update
in regards to that. So,
>> okay,
» I would just echo well done folks. I
know it's a lot of work and a lot of
detail and and you're taking some risks
there and I think it's worthwhile. So,
thank you very much.
» Okay, item eight, community director
report.
>> All right. Thank you. So, uh, city
council, just as many of you know,
upheld your decision on 1704 mission.
So, uh, just a quick update of where
we're at. The applicant did request a
lifting of the existing stop work. Um,
however, we did inform them of the plans
that needed to be submitted per our
letter and, uh, and review work that's
beyond the scope of the permit. So,
that's where we're at right now. Um,
we're really looking forward to work
with the applicant and and get this
items resolved and continue moving
forward with uh, fining out construction
of that uh, project. um because overall
it it is a good project for the city and
uh you know we are looking forward to
that. Um city council will be moving
forward to adopt the 2025 California
building code at its November 24th 2025
meeting. I know that didn't go to you um
but we are um part of we are at the end
of our uh tri triannual cycle. Um
there's one sort of caveat to that is
our our residential um there was a new
state law uh passed as a part of the
budget that freezes uh residential
building code updates. So this will be
the last one of those that you'll see
for the next six years. So um it kind of
gives a lot more certainty moving
forward. Um so which is great. Um we
will be having a December meeting. I
know there was some questions of that
and that is to discuss short-term
rentals. So um that's we're currently at
the finish line on that one. um which is
fantastic. Um that is now in for review
at the city attorney's office. The city
attorney, I know Taylor's looking at it.
Um but hopefully we'll get that into
ordinance format. It's based on the
recommendations of just limiting our uh
short terminals into the village only
and then carving out if you had an exist
if you have a R3 um and you have an
existing permit um you'll be able to
apply for one with some caveats and
exceptions. But again, that'll be coming
to you for recommendation and we'll have
that in ordinance format. Um, and as a
part of that, we're actually going to
beginning our begin our enforcement of
our ordinance since there's no path
forward at this point for folks that are
operating short-term rentals outside of
the village. So, um, letters will be
going out at the end u by midmon
informing them that they need to um
cease uh their their operations.
Um, speaking of uh we are moving along
with the administrative draft, the
design handbook. Um, so we're actually
hoping for um either a December or
January to bringing that to the DRC very
similar to what we did here is we'll
bring it to DRC first. Um, get some sort
of feedback, re re-edit, reit it down
and then bring it to you for that sort
of second check-in on feedback and then
bring it to city council and then we'll
re-reverse it out back to everybody. Um,
so um, Lisa's been uh doing that and
she's I'm the one now that's behind. But
I'm sorry, Lisa, that I need to review
that. Um, but we are looking to get that
done, uh, here at the latter end of this
year and at the beginning of next year.
And then, um, speaking of the sign
ordinance, it either returned either in
January, uh, to this body or in
February. So, we don't know quite yet
where we're going to land with the city
council. U, uh, but after, uh, we get
input from the council, um, we'll, this
will come back to you. And it'll
actually come in two forms. One is the
ordinance format, but also a sign
handbook. So, we'll be working. So,
whatever comes out from the city
council, that's what we'll put into the
handbook, which will be a much more
reader friendly, easier to use,
incorporate some of the graphics that
we're already doing. And so, that way we
it's it's a finished product that
everyone gets to see, and then uh
everyone now starts playing on the same
rules. Um, and then finally, we we uh
bless uh Cole Phillips in our public
works department. Um, he recovered uh
two goats that were roaming the street.
So if you are missing any goats, they
are at the animal shelter in Santa
Maria. Um
so
>> goats eating eating vegetation.
[laughter]
>> Wish we could
>> um we don't know where they came from.
So they were just roaming the streets.
So uh
>> had some goats eating stuff on the
[laughter] field over there. So
>> they're little goats. They're little
goats. So they're little guys. So, if
you're missing any goats and you're
watching, go call animal services and
hopefully we'll we'll re reunite you
with your goats.
>> Can I ask you two questions? The the
until the design review handbook gets
changed. This is going to happen sooner
than that. I mean, the design review
handbook is still the
>> Are you talking the design guidelines?
>> Yes, the guidelines. I'm sorry.
>> Yes, that's in place.
>> That is very much in place. that
actually has to go through a repeal. Um,
so essentially what will end up
happening is once we dial in the
handbook, we come to this the DRC for
recommendation, the planning
commissioner recommendation, and the
city council will adopt and then repeal
the old guidelines.
>> The old one stays in place until
>> correct. Yeah. So,
>> and the last question,
um, the the stop work order on on the
St. George property, I don't even know
the address, 1704. Was that because of
the design or was that because of some
other structural things?
>> So in the interior there's a substantial
amount of work that deviated from the
approved permit in the interior in terms
of the floor plan. Um also on the
exterior flat work it it deviated
particularly when it comes to storm
water drainage. So what a lot of people
don't understand is storm water drainage
is heavily integrated into the amount of
what's called impervious surface. And so
the minute you start adding impervious
surface that really changes the calculus
of your drainage and it may trip you
into doing additional um uh le features
or other sort of underground work that
needs to get done to retain the storm
water. So it's actually a bigger deal
than meets the eye. Um, so that was
mainly the main trip up was the ADA, the the other storm water and the other
sort of interior work where you can't,
you know, run an inspection and then the
inspection essentially becomes a
correction of either demo what you're
doing and put it back to what it's
supposed to be or go revise your plans
and tell us what it actually is and
we'll inspect for what it actually is.
So that that's where we're at.
>> That's where it's at.
>> That is where it's at.
>> Okay.
I do have a question related to that
project. Um because the project is
scaled um are is the developer still
having to meet uh building codes, door
heights and such.
>> So a lot of folks uh there were
questions about the door heights. Um
there are actually two doors. People
don't realize that there's the main
entry door which is actually to code
>> usually in the back where you can't see
it. Yeah. And so that that's the and
that's part of the issue with the floor
plan is those doors were never called
out whether they were ingress egress.
And so these these technically can't be
ingress egress doors. So they got to
figure that out. And and so um you know
but there was that comment of well
that's not even up to code. No it is.
There's just the main entrance is on the
side that is actually to code and done
per plan. Glad to hear that. Yeah.
Okay. Nothing else.
Okay. We're adjourned at 854.
» 7:54.