[3:23] regular meeting of the planning
[3:25] commission for uh November 3rd, 2025. 5
[3:29] is called to order at 6:00 p.m.
[3:33] Could we have the roll call, please?
[3:36] >> Member Peterson
[3:38] >> here.
[3:38] >> Member Sparks Gillis absent. Member
[3:40] Ziggler
[3:41] >> here.
[3:42] >> Vice Chair Adler absent. Chair Williams
[3:44] >> here.
[3:45] >> Thank you.
[3:48] >> Bill, would you lead us in the pledge,
[3:49] please?
[3:50] >> Be happy to.
[3:54] » Ready? Pledge. I pledge allegiance to
[3:57] the flag of the United States of America
[4:00] and to the republic for which it stands.
[4:03] One nation under God, indivisible, with
[4:06] liberty and justice for all.
[4:14] » Okay. Next up, approve the order of the
[4:18] agenda. Does anybody want to change the
[4:20] order of the agenda?
[4:22] >> Move approval.
[4:24] Second.
[4:26] >> Moved and seconded. All in favor?
[4:28] >> I passes 3 0.
[4:32] Public comment.
[4:35] It doesn't look like we have anybody
[4:38] here for public comment or online.
[4:43] So, we'll move directly to the consent
[4:46] items.
[4:48] Does anybody want to pull the consent
[4:51] items or have any questions about them
[4:53] before we?
[4:57] » None here.
[4:59] >> I'll move approval of the consent items.
[5:02] >> Second.
[5:04] >> Uh moved and seconded. All in favor?
[5:07] >> I
[5:09] uh
[5:11] and I meant just one question about the
[5:16] uh these events. the this chart. There's
[5:20] a a number of things on here that are
[5:23] expiring this year. Uh some have one's
[5:28] has already expired and one is going to
[5:31] expire in a couple of days. What what is
[5:35] going to happen with those items?
[5:39] >> Are these the improved entitlements or
[5:41] are these projects that are under
[5:42] construction? Uh
[5:45] the uh it's on the first page. Page
[5:48] eight
[5:50] is uh the uh Schaefer Family Trust. It
[5:54] says the expired uh October 30th.
[5:59] >> Oh, 4:30. Oh, that was actually final.
[6:01] So, hence why it says building permit
[6:02] final.
[6:04] >> Okay. [laughter]
[6:05] >> Yeah. So, it's all done. And that's
[6:07] actually the new Thai restaurant that
[6:08] opened up.
[6:09] >> Okay. Okay. And then moving down to the
[6:11] approved entitlements, the the first two
[6:14] there.
[6:16] >> So 1420 Mission Drive, they are out of
[6:20] additional extensions. So going to
[6:23] assume that they will not have an
[6:25] approved building permit by the 6th of
[6:27] this month considering that they haven't
[6:29] even submitted for permit. So that will
[6:31] also die.
[6:33] >> Okay.
[6:34] >> So they will start back at the drawing
[6:35] board.
[6:38] And as for the condo map, um, that one's
[6:42] a that one's an interesting one because
[6:43] that one
[6:45] we have, I believe this one is I don't
[6:48] recall if this was the 2-year extension,
[6:51] which I think it's the two-year
[6:53] extension, but this has a three-year
[6:55] um development uh plan that was
[6:58] approved. So, the map will die on the
[7:02] 25th on on December 4th, but the
[7:05] applicant is looking to redo everything.
[7:08] So, um,
[7:11] >> we may see something on that.
[7:12] >> We'll see something completely different
[7:14] from what's been approved. So, that one
[7:15] probably will die quietly as well. So,
[7:18] >> okay.
[7:20] Thank you.
[7:22] Um, exparte communications have anything
[7:26] to report?
[7:27] >> Nope.
[7:28] >> None here.
[7:29] >> Uh, no. Item five, item six, discussion
[7:33] items.
[7:37] discussion and direction for title 11
[7:40] chapter 13 the signed ordinance.
[7:44] Uh
[7:46] before we start just a comment Raphael I
[7:48] want to uh
[7:50] thank you and staff for the work you did
[7:53] on this.
[7:54] Uh I know it's a lot of work. Uh Aaron
[7:58] and I have gone through this two or
[8:00] three times where we've had to do the
[8:04] work that uh staff has done this time
[8:06] and we never got any support. So I'm
[8:08] really happy to see this finally
[8:11] something actually happening.
[8:14] >> Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean you guys
[8:16] started the work back in uh I want to
[8:17] say 201819 give or take. So before that
[8:21] [laughter]
[8:23] » well before you this evening is actually
[8:25] it's not the finished product. It's our
[8:27] draft sign ordinance uh planning
[8:29] commission review. So, just to give
[8:31] everyone who's watching or will watch
[8:33] this uh in the future a little bit of
[8:35] background on where we're at with this
[8:36] thing. So, uh we've been talking about a
[8:39] new sign ordinance since I started here.
[8:41] Um we did hold a joint workshop on March
[8:43] 13, 2025 with the planning commission
[8:45] and the DRC. Um that we got a little bit
[8:48] of direction on. Um and from that
[8:51] direction we ended up starting beginning
[8:52] a series of of feedback from the design
[8:54] review committee beginning in June. Uh
[8:57] held one in August and October. And so
[9:00] at this point we're really preparing the
[9:03] admin draft for city council in January
[9:05] 2026. So what that means is it's still
[9:07] an admin form. This you're not adopting
[9:09] something tonight. Uh but we're just
[9:11] basically asking for your feedback and
[9:13] comments and then we are looking for a a
[9:16] target adoption as of February. So
[9:18] essentially what'll end up happening is
[9:20] uh we'll we'll take this to city
[9:22] council. If we can get it into the end
[9:23] of the year, that'd be great for their
[9:25] feedback. If not, we'll roll out the
[9:27] first January meeting and then we'll
[9:29] target um February for us to actually
[9:33] begin the adoption process. And of
[9:35] course, our city attorney will still
[9:37] need to take a look at this who's on the
[9:38] line uh if you have any questions. So
[9:41] the basis for the amendments are really
[9:42] four-fold. Uh first is to modernize our city sign regulations. if uh we've had these in place since 2012. We
[9:50] attempted in 2018 and 19 to amend these.
[9:55] Um just they've never really gone
[9:56] anywhere. Um we're really trying to
[9:59] ensure legal defensibility and first
[10:00] amendment compliance. That's the biggest
[10:02] key. Um third is we're trying to adapt
[10:05] to new technology and listening to the
[10:07] needs of our businesses. And then the
[10:10] last but not least one is maintaining
[10:12] our Danish village aesthetic. That's
[10:14] really what it comes down to is. So we
[10:16] have these competing sort of things all
[10:19] glancing into one in terms of we have
[10:21] this brand we want to maintain. Uh but
[10:24] our siding ordinance hasn't really kept
[10:25] up with any uh case law and over the
[10:29] last 10 years and then of that we just
[10:33] you know we're trying to balance the
[10:36] what we're hearing from the business
[10:37] community.
[10:39] So, one of the the big items that our
[10:41] siden ordinance really falls short on is
[10:44] this idea of of content neutrality. And
[10:47] so, what the draft ordinance so far is align with the big court case from
[10:52] 2015, which was Reed versus the Town of
[10:54] Gilbert. Um, so we've really removed
[10:56] messagebased distinctions, i.e.
[10:58] political signs, real estate signs,
[11:00] construction signs, all those have sort
[11:02] of been removed out of the ordinance,
[11:04] and instead we're really regulating
[11:06] based on physical attributes, placement,
[11:08] and duration. So, time, place, manner is
[11:10] really what it comes down to. Um, we've
[11:12] removed the idea of colors. We move the
[11:15] idea of logos that and the and fonts,
[11:19] etc., and really just drilling down to
[11:22] time, place, manner, but we want it to
[11:24] look with a certain aesthetic. and
[11:26] that's sort of been the legal standing
[11:28] since about 2015.
[11:30] The other one is just allowing
[11:32] non-commercial messages to substitute on
[11:34] any sign structure. So, we've recently
[11:36] had this uh where a property owner
[11:39] decided to place a non-commercial
[11:41] message sign up. Most certainly can do
[11:43] it. That's within their realm. Um it's
[11:46] just we need needed to make it very
[11:48] clear that it's it can substitute for an
[11:50] allowed sign. So again, just really
[11:52] trying to punch up that language to make
[11:54] sure we're consistent with federal case
[11:56] law.
[11:58] The next sort of set that we were
[12:00] looking at is modernizing our sign code.
[12:03] Uh so this includes streamlining
[12:05] language and much more clear intent. So
[12:08] um our code was in is ambiguous that it
[12:12] has language that it prefers or
[12:15] recommends or et we sort of eliminated
[12:18] that. We've also simplified the
[12:20] permitting process and we've so we're
[12:22] introducing administrative sign permits
[12:24] and so that's sort of been this in in
[12:27] the 2018 2019 effort city staff um had attempted to go ahead and get sign
[12:36] uh permits all administrative which for
[12:38] most municipalities actually is what
[12:41] they do. It's the kind of the standard.
[12:42] Signs are are typically again time place
[12:44] manner. There's not much to it. Uh of
[12:46] course with solving we're a little bit
[12:48] different. uh we definitely want to
[12:50] maintain our aesthetic and our look. So,
[12:52] we kind of also had the idea of of
[12:55] streamlining it that way, but we've
[12:57] heard back from this planning commission
[12:59] and the DRC. And so, we're going to sort
[13:01] of split the difference a little bit.
[13:03] So, what we've written in is some
[13:05] signage will be done administratively.
[13:07] So, many temp signs, uh A-frame signs
[13:10] that we will allow in um those will be
[13:12] done administratively or over the
[13:13] counter. So, they don't need to go to
[13:14] DRC. The big one that it actually will
[13:17] change out is suspended signs. So those
[13:20] are the ones that you mainly see along
[13:21] your sidewalks. Those are your
[13:22] pedestrian oriented signs that hang from
[13:24] the building. If you're using the same
[13:26] hardware and you're using everything and
[13:28] you're only changing out the sign and it
[13:30] meets all the intent of the code, you
[13:32] can get it over the counter. It's as
[13:34] simple simplistic as that. Um the DRC
[13:39] did wanted a caveat stating that if they
[13:42] uh applicant came back with a wall sign
[13:45] in six months or a time frame
[13:47] essentially, we've put down 6 months. So
[13:49] we'll make it pretty clear that hey, if
[13:50] you're going to do a wall sign that we
[13:52] want to see it all as one package, but
[13:53] if you're really just aiming to get
[13:56] something up and and get it going and
[13:57] you're not doing much and you're just
[13:59] doing that, let let's do that over the
[14:01] counter. So sort of a test run is
[14:03] probably the best way of taking a look
[14:04] at it. Um if everything works out pretty
[14:07] well then uh maybe it might be something
[14:10] in a future goal to amend further signs
[14:13] uh to go into by right administrative
[14:16] permit only. Um but for now we got to
[14:19] run a test balloon and that's the test
[14:20] balloon we're going to run. The other uh
[14:23] is the objective design measurement
[14:25] standard. So again, getting rid of our
[14:28] current language, um, amending our
[14:30] current language that discussed colors,
[14:32] that discussed fonts, that discussed
[14:34] logos, and inability to put on a
[14:37] website, etc. That's content based,
[14:40] that's message based. We're not supposed
[14:41] to be looking at it. So instead, we're
[14:43] looking really at objective standards
[14:45] instead. And so what that means is what type of material is being
[14:48] utilized for the sign? How tall is it?
[14:51] How big is it? Where is it located?
[14:53] those type of things that are much more
[14:56] definitive and objective that's falls in
[14:58] line with uh federal case law. And then
[15:01] the other one is is integrating with our
[15:03] updated design handbook. So we have a
[15:05] set of I where that's where we can say
[15:08] hey if you're looking for this type of
[15:10] design aesthetic this is probably much
[15:12] more pleasing. Uh but again it's more
[15:15] it's essentially uh not necessarily a
[15:18] recommendation but just hey this is what
[15:20] we tend to prefer more so than anything
[15:22] else and sort of integrating those two
[15:24] together.
[15:25] So some of the proposed new signage uh
[15:28] that's in our ordinance is the
[15:29] regulation of murals. This is something
[15:31] where uh city staff did spar with the
[15:34] DRC um and by city staff meaning myself
[15:38] and the extension of our city attorney
[15:40] um our city attorney's office. Um, so
[15:43] currently our ordinance actually doesn't
[15:45] regulate murals. It's a blank. Um,
[15:48] murals are are great is that they add
[15:51] some vibrancy, especially to blank
[15:53] walls. Uh, but there are pitfalls to
[15:55] those, particularly when it comes to
[15:56] what's being painted and what the
[15:58] message is. Um, best practices is sort
[16:01] of stay out of that realm and just say,
[16:02] "Hey, look, as long as you've met these
[16:04] criterias, we are okay with it." Um, so,
[16:09] uh, while we overheard the DRC and we
[16:12] took in their, um, we did modify some of
[16:14] the language, uh, based on their
[16:16] suggestions, we are still going to be
[16:18] recommending to council that this is
[16:20] done at an administrative level as long
[16:22] as you've met the criteria for it. And
[16:25] again, art is extremely subjective. Uh,
[16:28] it's the eye of the beholder. uh what
[16:30] one um sort of uh beer cup looking thing
[16:35] that sits in the median is a beer cup
[16:37] looking thing versus a trophy. It's a
[16:40] whole different story. Uh what is a
[16:42] stein versus a trophy versus what is
[16:44] art? It's all subjective. So again,
[16:46] rather just keep the metrics in there in
[16:48] terms of up upkeep of maintenance. Where
[16:52] is it located at? Is it visible? How big
[16:55] is it? How long are you going to install
[16:57] it, etc.
[16:59] um allowance for A-frame signs. That's
[17:00] something we heard from our workshop. Um
[17:03] so in this instance, we are going to
[17:05] allow A-frame signs. Um they will not be
[17:07] allowed in the rightway. Uh they will
[17:09] require a sign permit that will require
[17:11] to be reviewed. Um there is something uh
[17:14] that we're proposing is an actual change
[17:16] out of the sign face every 30 days
[17:18] because that's the intention of the
[17:20] A-frame sign. It's really to draw a
[17:22] customer in whether you have a sale,
[17:23] whether special, the day, etc. Again,
[17:25] we're not looking at regulating the
[17:27] message um or the content. We're just
[17:29] simply saying, "Hey, if you can change
[17:30] out that face every 30 days, that's
[17:32] great." And again, that sort of prevents
[17:34] this idea of purchasing an A-frame sign
[17:37] and just having a static message all day
[17:38] long. And really, the intention of the
[17:40] A-frame sign is to advertise something
[17:43] different, whether again weekly special,
[17:46] nightly special, a sale, a new item, and
[17:50] just really and leaving that up to our
[17:52] business owners. But again asking for a a change in the face every 30 days as
[17:57] part of the issuance of the permit and
[17:59] again time place manner regulations. So
[18:01] the sign needs to come in at the end of
[18:03] the business day. It just can't
[18:04] permanently stay out. Can't be lit.
[18:06] Can't have balloons on it. Um and it
[18:09] can't be located on right away. It needs
[18:11] to be located within x amount of feet
[18:13] from the door. It needs to keep a ADA
[18:15] path cleared. So, there's regulations
[18:17] that are time, place, manner, uh, to try
[18:19] to streamline that, but allow for our
[18:21] businesses to utilize the A-frame signs,
[18:24] wayfinding, and directional signage for
[18:26] pedestrians. This is actually new. Um,
[18:29] currently we kind of have that. We kind
[18:31] of don't. Uh, we I think at best what
[18:33] you're you're seeing is the directional
[18:35] signage that's been in planters. Um,
[18:38] which again is great. Uh, has kind of
[18:41] worked. Um, but planters aren't
[18:43] technically permanent. there's no
[18:45] foundation to it. Some of them have bolt
[18:47] they think that the way around it is
[18:49] they said well if the planter is
[18:51] permanent and boltered in we we'll call
[18:52] it good but then that becomes a sticky
[18:55] wicket. So at this point we're we've
[18:57] introduced these this type of signage
[19:00] again with objective standards that it
[19:02] is a permanent sign structure. It can't
[19:04] be in a planner. It has to meet the
[19:06] objective criteria and again it equals
[19:09] the playing field for everybody. um
[19:12] umbrella awning and freestanding signs
[19:14] are clarified. Um and so those that's uh
[19:17] some of our umbrella sign uh language
[19:20] was not very clear. Um our freestanding
[19:22] signage is now clarified. And then uh
[19:25] digital limited signs limited and
[19:26] standardized. So again, this is part of
[19:28] that message of eliminating content
[19:29] base. One of the biggest ones is have
[19:31] neon signs. Uh neon signs is strictly
[19:34] prohibited except for a hotel use.
[19:35] That's content. Sorry, can't have that.
[19:38] So we've heard loud and clear to just
[19:39] eliminate straight up.
[19:42] um revised standards. So again,
[19:44] illustrating measurement and standards.
[19:46] You see that in your staff report and
[19:47] we'll continue to um try to include as
[19:50] many images to help city staff and
[19:54] business owners uh determine how to do
[19:56] that. Um objective limits for area,
[19:58] height, and placement. One of the bigger
[20:00] issues in and allowances what we've done
[20:02] is we've actually increased the amount
[20:03] of signage that you can do um in terms
[20:06] of the letter height. Um, and we've sort
[20:09] of given you this box to say, "Hey, if
[20:11] this is based on your linear footage.
[20:13] So, if you have 50 feet of frontage, 50
[20:17] ft is your max, you go figure it out.
[20:19] We're not going to tell you how to
[20:21] figure it out, but you as the business
[20:23] owner need to go figure out. So, if you
[20:24] want to put all your eggs in one basket
[20:27] in a sign, be our guest. That's
[20:28] perfectly fine by us. Um, if you want to
[20:31] split the difference, which most people
[20:32] do, they'll split it between a suspended
[20:34] sign, a regular wall sign, or a sign on
[20:37] a on an awning, perfect. That's
[20:39] fantastic. But you got to figure this
[20:41] out. We'll give you the box to play
[20:42] with. And that's a big fundamental
[20:45] difference versus what our current
[20:46] ordinance is. It accepts a window sign
[20:49] and accepts a umbrella sign and it
[20:52] accepts a suspended sign. So you start
[20:54] having all these sign exceptions and
[20:56] that's where you really do get the sign
[20:58] clutter versus just stating you got 50
[21:01] square feet to work with. Figure it out.
[21:04] You as the business owner and if it
[21:05] doesn't work, cool. Then you do
[21:08] something new. But you got to figure it
[21:09] out all within your 50 square ft.
[21:13] Whether it's uh a new whether it's a
[21:16] display sign that's in the front coupled
[21:18] with a new awning sign, etc. Again, it's
[21:21] really putting the the power back in the
[21:23] business owner's hands. We're actually
[21:25] proposing illumination standards [gasps]
[21:28] for a town that really uh really really
[21:31] wants dark skies. It was kind of
[21:32] shocking to not have an illumination
[21:34] standard. We got that in. So, that's
[21:36] what we're proposing out. And then
[21:37] again, strengthening our maintenance and
[21:39] repair requirements. Um the couple
[21:42] sections sort of left it up to uh the
[21:45] director but gave no time frame. um
[21:48] others were out of whack with existing
[21:50] code sections. So really we streamlined
[21:52] it. We made it consistent with our
[21:54] chapter one that already deals with it
[21:56] and again just really trying to clean it
[21:58] up.
[22:00] Um and then as mentioned before looking
[22:02] at the streamline review, the
[22:03] administrative permits um really looking
[22:05] at the DRC um to handle more of the
[22:08] complex applications. So, um, again,
[22:11] those wall signs or sign programs go to
[22:13] them. And then making a very clear
[22:17] appeal section and exception procedures.
[22:20] So, right now, that's not very clear of
[22:22] where that goes. Um, our findings have
[22:24] been cleaned up. And again, we're
[22:26] looking for if we're loosening up the
[22:28] sign ordinance, you better have a very
[22:30] good reason why you're looking for an
[22:32] exception. And then again, consolidating
[22:34] our enforcement and compliance under our
[22:36] city code. So that's basically the
[22:39] overview of what is being proposed in
[22:41] the draft signed ordinance. Your tasks
[22:43] this evening are just to provide
[22:45] comments and feedback. Uh provide any
[22:48] directions or modifications and ask
[22:50] questions of say you staff because again
[22:52] this isn't um the last time we'll be
[22:54] checking in with the planning
[22:55] commission. Um but we are almost there
[22:58] to sort of finish up and wrap up uh the
[23:00] sign ordinance which has been many years
[23:02] in the making. And with that I'll turn
[23:03] it over to commission for any questions.
[23:08] So, any immediate questions before we go
[23:10] to public comment?
[23:12] >> I I do. Raphael, could you um do we have
[23:15] any regulation on murals? And if so,
[23:17] could you talk about that a little bit
[23:20] >> in the current ordinance or in the
[23:21] proposed ordinance?
[23:22] >> Well, you indicated that you did not
[23:24] want to restrict, but I don't know what
[23:25] you currently have. So, I guess
[23:27] >> we don't have anything in the current
[23:28] ordinance, which is why we're proposing
[23:30] it now.
[23:31] >> And what are you proposing? So, in the
[23:34] current section, it's it's coming it's
[23:37] called out in the proposed um side
[23:40] ordinance. It it's called out as its own
[23:43] sort of specialty signage.
[23:46] >> And so
[23:48] here it sort of defines what a mural is,
[23:51] what's the purpose, exempt from sign
[23:53] consideration.
[23:54] >> Page 29.
[23:55] >> Yeah, page 29 and 30.
[23:57] >> Thank you. And then it really the review
[23:59] authority falls onto the director and
[24:01] then as long as the standards are and the first standard is a
[24:04] non-commercial content. A mural is
[24:07] non-commercial. It doesn't contain any
[24:08] logo, trademark, trade names or other
[24:11] commercial identifiers. And if the
[24:13] primary purpose is aesthetic, cultural
[24:14] or expressive rather than advertise. Uh
[24:18] so case in point, you get a nice little
[24:19] mural of of a Coke bottle. It's a Coke
[24:22] bottle. So it's it's pretty there. uh
[24:25] locations just located on the exterior
[24:27] wall or permanent surface visible from
[24:29] the public rideway. Uh just making sure
[24:31] that any lighting shall be directed to
[24:33] prevent any glare on the adjacent
[24:34] properties. Um safety is to not cover
[24:37] windows or doors and then ensuring a
[24:40] maintenance and then putting a limit on
[24:42] the number of murals which is one per building or property whichever is
[24:45] less.
[24:46] >> So um I I understand the free speech
[24:50] component of things. Um, what if
[24:53] something were proposed that was
[24:55] patently offensive? Um,
[24:58] swastikas and things of that nature.
[25:01] How, if you have no standard, how would
[25:03] you regulate that? I
[25:04] >> I will turn that question over to our
[25:06] city attorney, Taylor, who is on
[25:08] >> course. So, um, patently offensive
[25:10] speech, there's a different standard for
[25:12] it, and hate speech that's specifically
[25:14] defined and treated differently under
[25:16] the First Amendment. So if something did
[25:18] come up that was proposed that fell into
[25:21] those categories, the city would be able
[25:23] to to regulate that and essentially say
[25:25] no.
[25:26] >> Thank you.
[25:28] Yeah, it would it would still require a
[25:30] permit. So it would still require a
[25:32] submitt required for us to review to
[25:34] make sure it meets the criteria. Um
[25:36] we're we're just not taking it and
[25:39] bubbling it up to um the powers that be.
[25:43] Unless, of course, we most certainly
[25:45] have to. And in in an application like
[25:47] that, most certainly we could reference
[25:50] out to the DRC first and have them take
[25:52] a crack in a public hearing. Um, that's
[25:54] always within the director's ability to
[25:56] do that. Uh, but again, it it's just
[25:59] administratively we want to continue to
[26:00] just keep that at a staff level.
[26:02] >> I appreciate the clarification.
[26:07] I will have a question um on a specific
[26:11] item. when you get to 1113
[26:16] 7 AE
[26:18] um
[26:19] >> why don't we go to public comment okay
[26:21] >> before we get into the individual if
[26:24] that's okay
[26:26] >> sure
[26:28] >> okay well well we'll take it to public
[26:30] comment
[26:32] uh there's nobody here there's nobody
[26:35] online
[26:37] so we'll close public comment and bring
[26:40] it back to the commissioner
[26:43] Bill, I interrupted you.
[26:45] >> No worries. That's appropriate. Um, so
[26:49] what I found was in that section, let me
[26:52] get to it.
[26:52] >> Yeah. What was that section?
[26:53] >> It was 11-13-7
[26:56] capital A, little E. And um,
[27:01] >> page
[27:03] around page 20 or so.
[27:05] >> 22.
[27:05] Thank you.
[27:08] >> Get there to
[27:12] Um, I just had a question about time of
[27:15] display. You have none listed. So that
[27:17] indicate that you're not allowed to do
[27:19] that.
[27:20] >> Um, as in there's we don't have a
[27:22] duration of time of display as in 180
[27:25] days, 6 months. Um, and we can most
[27:28] certainly change the language.
[27:29] >> So no restriction.
[27:30] >> Correct. So,
[27:32] >> um yeah,
[27:34] >> we just don't want to and the r the
[27:36] rationale is we do not want to uh
[27:39] specifically limit um non-commercial
[27:42] signs on residential properties whether
[27:44] it's
[27:45] you know elections are completely
[27:47] different that they got their own sort
[27:48] of guidelines and everything but but
[27:50] more so if you want to support the
[27:52] troops or you want to voice your opinion
[27:56] on whatever administration's in place or
[27:59] whatever or product dour or or keep your
[28:03] goats in your yard. I we just don't want
[28:05] to we don't want to limit that.
[28:10] » Okay. I have just
[28:13] I I have a lot of things to to mention.
[28:17] None of them major I hope. Uh but just
[28:20] one general question.
[28:23] Uh in the past, our biggest problem with
[28:27] the signed ordinance, aside from people
[28:29] complaining about it, is a lack of
[28:34] enforcement.
[28:36] Are there any plans of foot to actually
[28:39] enforce these regulations?
[28:42] >> Yeah, that's the intention of this. When
[28:44] somebody gets a sign approved,
[28:48] is there's somebody that's going to go
[28:50] out and look at the sign when it's up
[28:52] and say, "Yes, that's that's what was
[28:55] approved or no, it's not." Because a lot
[28:58] of times people make changes in the
[29:00] process of putting up their signs.
[29:03] >> Yeah. So I mean that so with the sign
[29:06] permit obviously um there there is
[29:09] supposed to be followup and and and for
[29:11] the most part most people when they put
[29:12] permanent signage it is what it is. Um
[29:15] as far as the temporary signs that's a
[29:17] different story. That's end of story is
[29:20] yes there will be enforcing to it. Um
[29:23] we'll be since code enforcement and
[29:25] compliance is in our community
[29:27] development department. I'll be working
[29:28] very closely with our code compliance
[29:30] officer to make sure our A-frame signs
[29:32] and temporary banner signs are are done
[29:35] at the time frame to which they're
[29:36] approved and taken down at the time
[29:38] frame in which they're supposed to be
[29:39] taken down. So there there very much is
[29:42] enforcement that goes with it as there
[29:44] is today and very much follows our our
[29:47] policies for um enforcing our ordinance.
[29:57] Well, I I've got a few.
[30:00] >> Well, what why don't we just go through
[30:02] page by page
[30:04] >> and starting on page 16.
[30:06] >> Can we start on 15?
[30:09] >> 15. Okay.
[30:11] >> 15. Um B. It's just a I think it's a
[30:14] typo. B is I think it says consistent
[30:17] with section 11134. I think it's 11133
[30:21] which is the exempt signs I think.
[30:25] Yes, it could be it. We'll check back
[30:27] again because it's admin draft. Some of
[30:29] the sections would get moved around. So,
[30:30] we've got to make sure that's correct.
[30:32] >> That's all I had on on 15. Thank you.
[30:37] >> Okay. Page 16, exempt signs.
[30:41] >> Um I I have some questions. Um,
[30:51] so we we've got if we go to uh 11133
[30:57] and we go down to two and temporary
[31:01] signage related to Ulfest and Danish
[31:03] days or any other official city holiday.
[31:07] Um, I assume that's
[31:10] a legal term. Is it is something where
[31:12] they say we declare that Fourth of July
[31:15] is an official city holiday or event and
[31:17] they do that every year. Do people come
[31:20] up and say here's an official event.
[31:22] It's going to be I don't know car show
[31:24] in the park. I mean it is it limited or
[31:28] is it up to city council to just come up
[31:30] with these official city holidays? It
[31:33] might be offensive that Ulifest is
[31:35] listed in Danish days, but other um
[31:38] other holidays are not for and and so
[31:41] I'm just curious, do we put anything in
[31:43] there or do we just say any official
[31:45] holiday as declared by city and let it
[31:47] go?
[31:48] >> So we we specifically did Yulfest simply
[31:52] because that's something that in Danish
[31:53] days is those two big sort of festivals,
[31:55] Fourth of July being the other one. Um
[31:57] really the aim is to just have the
[32:00] ability for parks and wreck who issues
[32:02] out uh temporary event permits to allow
[32:04] for sort of those banner signs to be
[32:06] there as a in conjunction with that. Um
[32:08] we most certainly can clean it up. Um
[32:11] but really the reality is we we want to
[32:14] be make sure sort of cover our bases to
[32:16] say that the signed ordinance doesn't
[32:18] affect any of those city sponsored
[32:20] events and most certainly we can clean the language up.
[32:23] >> Okay. it. You could certainly say any
[32:25] temporary signage related to any
[32:27] official city holiday event or events
[32:30] such as Ulfest, Danish Days, etc. And
[32:33] then you'd cover official events.
[32:36] >> And that's a that's actually a fantastic
[32:39] >> clarify. We do have a definition of
[32:41] holiday in the municipal code. It kind
[32:43] of broadly refers to any federal or
[32:45] state holidays. Um, and then I believe
[32:47] the city could also uh establish a city
[32:50] holiday by ordinance as well. Um, so
[32:52] that that's where we're getting the
[32:53] definition of holiday there.
[32:56] >> But that's actually a very excellent
[32:58] suggestion of of cleaning that up. And
[33:00] again, we really just don't want to
[33:02] hamstring ourselves for especially, you
[33:04] know, special events that that
[33:06] applicants go through and and that's
[33:08] been sort of that question of, well,
[33:10] what can they do signwise? I'm like,
[33:11] well, um, [laughter]
[33:14] >> got to get it declared special event, I
[33:16] guess,
[33:16] >> right? where
[33:17] >> city holiday
[33:18] >> whereas it if if the if the signage is
[33:20] turned in with the special event they've
[33:23] already cleared the barrier they're not
[33:24] going to do anything and we don't need
[33:25] to take a look at it so that we'd much
[33:27] rather prefer that than the ladder
[33:29] >> can I ask on number three underneath
[33:31] that um
[33:35] it's talking about again these are
[33:37] exempt and it's the non-eliminated signs
[33:40] but not limited to credit card
[33:42] acceptance I get that business hours
[33:44] open and closed I get it or menus use.
[33:47] I didn't see a menu um portion section
[33:52] in here.
[33:53] >> Yeah, because that's content based. We
[33:54] don't want to do that anymore.
[33:56] >> That's why it says display instead.
[33:58] >> Should we be taking menus out of this?
[34:00] >> Um it's it's we could in theory. Um
[34:04] again,
[34:05] >> it says it's an aggra of only two square
[34:06] feet. That's aggra. That's all of it.
[34:08] So, you're going to get a whole lot in
[34:10] two square feet. That's sort of the
[34:12] point because it is there is the display
[34:14] sign that allows for that sort of
[34:17] additional larger display and that's
[34:19] already caked into the ordinance. So
[34:22] again the intention and we could remove
[34:24] menu as an example which is fine by me
[34:28] because again the real reality comes
[34:29] back to is we want to exempt out
[34:32] aggregate of two square feet your hours
[34:34] of operations your your credit card
[34:36] acceptance do you accept Bitcoin be my
[34:38] guest I don't care
[34:40] our current
[34:41] >> menu been such a a hot button you know
[34:44] how many do you have what do you do it I
[34:46] my suggestion would just take menus out
[34:48] because it's more subjective again my
[34:50] menu is different than yours than the
[34:51] credit card in the open and close
[34:52] >> would be happy to take it out. So,
[34:54] >> okay.
[34:57] Um,
[35:00] number four, the special event. Now,
[35:02] we're into decorations, not signs, but
[35:04] we're talking about decorations here,
[35:05] obviously, non-commercial messages.
[35:08] They can go up 30 days before an event
[35:12] and and must be down 72 hours after an
[35:15] event. Um
[35:19] this is just confusing but a bit ULFest
[35:21] is that the whole month. So if they
[35:23] declared that that's the 1st of December
[35:25] through the whatever it is um does that
[35:27] mean that they need to when they declare
[35:30] those events they need to have a start
[35:31] and a finish date knowing that we want
[35:34] it after the Christmas tree burn? We
[35:36] don't want it on the 27th of December if
[35:40] that's what we're looking for. 30 days
[35:42] prior to an event seems a lot. Going
[35:46] back to Ula Fest as an example, that
[35:48] means November one you could start
[35:50] putting up Christmas tree decorations
[35:52] and stuff. Um I I get it when it's maybe
[35:56] a Danish days, a one-day event. Even
[35:58] that is a long way out to go 30 days
[36:00] prior to a fiesta or a Danish days. I I
[36:04] so that that's a long period of time and
[36:07] kind of a short time to take it down
[36:09] afterward. in some of the others. I
[36:11] think we've got like a a seven day after
[36:14] an event on some things and I don't know
[36:16] that that's just my thought and I always
[36:19] use look for the extremes that we would
[36:22] start getting Christmas decorations up
[36:24] today if if you starts on December 3rd
[36:27] at the parade which I think that's kind
[36:29] of what they declare it to be. It's not
[36:31] the not just the holiday.
[36:34] So I think we ought to just look at that
[36:36] think it through. So we we can um the
[36:38] reality is this is really it's a
[36:40] twofold. One is trying to cover Yilifest
[36:43] Halloween and other you know Fourth of
[36:45] July etc. But also we we've had requests
[36:47] in the past for businesses that
[36:49] celebrate you know one year
[36:51] anniversaries and can they put up
[36:52] balloons etc. So most certainly we can
[36:55] quantify it with the time difference. So
[36:57] if you're doing a one day one to three
[36:59] day event 72 hours makes sense. Um and
[37:02] then for longer events we can extend out
[37:05] the time to uh remove the decorations.
[37:08] >> Yeah.
[37:08] >> So be happy to include sort of that time
[37:11] frame.
[37:11] >> Tighten that up just just a bit was was
[37:14] my thought.
[37:14] >> I like that approach too.
[37:17] >> Yeah. But there's also the question of
[37:19] when you can start putting up the
[37:21] decorations. I understand
[37:24] some flexibility on the back end. But
[37:27] you know can they according to this they
[37:30] can start 30 days before the
[37:32] >> sale
[37:33] >> the special event.
[37:35] >> Yeah.
[37:36] >> Right. And
[37:36] >> and then they have to take it down 72
[37:39] hours afterwards.
[37:41] >> Correct. And and so part of it is maybe
[37:43] there's the event of a sale and event of
[37:46] something like a popup whatever they're
[37:48] doing in in the park or at Demirus
[37:51] Square or somewhere. And the other is
[37:52] these official city holiday festivals
[37:55] that you know two classifications.
[37:59] >> Yeah, it sounds like we may just need to
[38:00] cut a se two separate exceptions and
[38:03] that's again not a problem. That's the
[38:05] intention of sort of this study session
[38:07] is to to get that and I know we try to
[38:10] combine it as much as we can into one.
[38:11] But yeah, it's fine. If it makes
[38:13] application much easier, I'm all for
[38:16] that.
[38:17] >> Um on down lower 1113-4
[38:21] But before you get there, I have a
[38:23] question on five.
[38:24] >> Sorry.
[38:25] >> Uh this is uh a fixed to vehicles. It
[38:29] says magnets, vinyl application,
[38:32] other forms of material
[38:34] uh of permanent adhesive. I question the
[38:38] word permanent. Magnets aren't
[38:39] permanent. Vinyl applications can be
[38:42] peeled off. Uh what was the intent there
[38:45] with permanent adhesive? the the the
[38:48] intent is to show that the that the sign
[38:51] is is sort of a fixed in some way, shape
[38:53] or form that doesn't appear to be
[38:55] temporary, which is why such signage
[38:57] such as banner, boards, paper, wood,
[38:59] material, any other sort of temporary
[39:00] sign um is not included. And and here
[39:04] it's not. We don't have many vehicles
[39:07] that do that. In other jurisdictions,
[39:09] we've had vehicles where they parked the
[39:10] car and they put the sign in the window
[39:13] pointing out, you know, and it's a
[39:15] cardboard sign. So again, just trying to
[39:17] differentiate between someone that has a
[39:21] has gone through the process of of
[39:23] either vinyl or putting window
[39:25] lettering, etc. that is really, you
[39:27] know, trying to make it not into a a
[39:31] moving billboard per se, but you know,
[39:33] directing traffic to a particular area.
[39:35] It's just trying, you know, we're just
[39:38] trying to differentiate a a permanent
[39:40] versus something that's temporary and
[39:42] attention getting.
[39:44] >> Would the as any examples would the
[39:47] signs on the trolley be exempt under
[39:50] this?
[39:50] >> Those are already exempt. They're
[39:52] different sections. So, yeah.
[39:53] >> Okay. And what about the signs on the
[39:56] roofs of the Domino's Pizza delivery
[39:59] guys?
[40:00] >> Again, that's that's typically fine.
[40:03] We're trying to walk that fine line to,
[40:06] you know, differentiate between the two.
[40:09] >> Okay. Well, and and I brought that one
[40:11] up in particular because it says that
[40:13] the sign can't project above
[40:17] or from the vehicle profile.
[40:21] So, by that definition, dominoes
[40:24] shouldn't be able to do that.
[40:25] >> Yeah, we again, we can take a look at
[40:27] that and try to make that work. or
[40:30] [clears throat] just walking a fine line
[40:32] and we'll try to sniff that out.
[40:36] >> Okay.
[40:36] >> Such as exceptions being made for
[40:37] delivery vehicles or something,
[40:39] commercial de delivery vehicles.
[40:41] >> Yeah, that's one way of doing it. So,
[40:44] >> um and under four, again, I'm just
[40:47] trying to emphasize the the 30-day and
[40:49] the 72 hours,
[40:52] you can do it three times a year. That's
[40:55] times 30 days. That's I'm beating a dead
[40:58] horse. That's 90 days. That's a quarter
[41:00] of the year. You could have stuff up.
[41:02] So, let's just if we can
[41:04] >> squeeze it down. Thank you.
[41:04] >> We We will We will squeeze that down.
[41:06] >> Thank you. Thank you.
[41:08] >> Okay. You had um on 1113-4
[41:14] number one offsite signage. Um, I
[41:18] really, if we, if we turn to page 36 for
[41:22] definition of off site signage, now I'm
[41:27] not saying the other one was any better.
[41:29] It's probably the same. It's right in
[41:31] the middle of page 36. Offsite signage
[41:34] that is not located on the same legal
[41:35] lot of the business.
[41:37] >> Okay, that that's where it's saying.
[41:40] So that means that if you're in a square
[41:42] and you're on the you can put signs
[41:45] remotely throughout the square if you
[41:48] got permission obviously from yourself
[41:50] or from the landlord. And I was always
[41:52] of the belief even talking to tenants of
[41:56] mine that you cannot put an off-site
[41:58] sign down there. the signs need to be on
[42:02] your frontage, your lineage, your It
[42:05] doesn't matter that it's all on one
[42:07] legal lot or you can have people putting
[42:09] signs around um off of their off of
[42:14] their
[42:15] businesses. So, I don't know if the if
[42:18] there's a better definition or if you
[42:20] guys chatted about that, but offsite
[42:22] didn't to me mean off the property that
[42:24] you have your one of 17 businesses on
[42:27] and you can do it anywhere on there. It
[42:29] had to be in front of your business or
[42:32] over your door.
[42:34] >> I seem to recall from our previous
[42:36] discussion and I think you brought it up
[42:38] Erin about it being proximate to the
[42:40] business and you even talked about some
[42:43] distances I think but primarily it was
[42:45] with I think Arames.
[42:46] >> A frames and that's in here as 5t from
[42:49] your primary door which is great. Yeah.
[42:51] >> But I always thought Jack you've been
[42:52] around it enough too that the signs had
[42:54] to be on your exterior. walls of your
[42:58] property, not your neighbors because
[43:00] they don't care,
[43:01] >> but you're on one legal lot. So,
[43:03] >> so you might be able to cover this on
[43:07] and we haven't gotten there yet under a
[43:09] sign program for uh a square where you
[43:13] have a number of businesses. One area
[43:16] that the developer or the owner could
[43:19] come up with a signed program for
[43:24] uh that business
[43:26] location
[43:28] and get the program approved through the
[43:30] city. And then it would be a
[43:32] collaboration between the owner or the
[43:35] landlord,
[43:37] >> the city, and
[43:38] >> but we still need to define off-site
[43:40] signage because the landlord's going to
[43:42] come in and say, "Well, it doesn't it
[43:43] says off-site signage could be anywhere
[43:45] on my piece of property. I've got 15
[43:47] tenants, and so I'm coming in with this
[43:50] signage all around off my off of the
[43:53] rental spots. There are some very small
[43:56] um shops in town, retail shops, very
[43:59] small, 300 feet, 400 square feet, 200
[44:02] square feet, and they don't maybe have
[44:04] enough walls, so they want to put them
[44:06] down and across. And I don't think
[44:08] that's maybe what what I want to see
[44:11] happen. I'd rather have I'd rather have
[44:13] site signage defined a little bit
[44:15] better.
[44:15] >> Well, 1134 says that it's not allowed.
[44:20] >> Uh
[44:21] >> it's under prohibited signs. Uh
[44:25] >> yeah, off-site signage, but the
[44:27] definition of offsite is the legal lot
[44:29] that you have your rental on.
[44:31] >> Yeah, it sounds like we can
[44:34] >> adjust it to both off-site and off-
[44:36] premise. So that's
[44:37] >> perfect. I think it used to say off
[44:39] premise. You're absolutely correct
[44:41] instead of offsite before.
[44:42] >> We can we can make that adjustment.
[44:44] >> Um under number four on this the digital
[44:47] display LED. I get it all. I understand
[44:50] it.
[44:52] Can we should we say that you can't have
[44:54] those inside or outside or seen from the
[44:57] street because you can get a lot of neon
[44:59] and stuff inside and can we even
[45:01] regulate that if it's back 15 [laughter]
[45:03] 18 in from the window? Maybe we cannot.
[45:07] >> That's a tough one. I mean there's a
[45:08] couple businesses where you can see the
[45:10] LEDs through the window. They see the
[45:12] signage in there and um
[45:14] >> and we never we never say I know we do
[45:16] this thing of 18 inches be after the
[45:19] window. You can do signage and you're
[45:21] not But the neon that you can still
[45:23] seems like it should be maybe a little
[45:27] tighter. But um my thought
[45:30] >> well and that this that starts to really
[45:33] blur that line of where do we sort of
[45:36] draw the line
[45:37] >> of of what we can and cannot see. So,
[45:42] you know, in this instance, I'm, you
[45:44] know, some businesses, it's just easier
[45:47] for them to do the digital display,
[45:49] especially on the menu boards if
[45:50] they're, you know, coffee shops, etc.
[45:52] >> Hadn't even thought about that. That's
[45:54] the hot thing right now.
[45:55] >> Yeah, it's just easier. So, I, you know,
[45:58] I'd rather keep to just regulating what
[46:00] we can see from the right away.
[46:02] >> Um, one thing that we can add in is the
[46:04] amount of lumens. So, that's that's
[46:07] definitely one way to regulate it. And
[46:08] again trying to be in a very succinct
[46:11] objective manner that if we can see the
[46:14] lumens at night or you know that that's
[46:17] going to be the easiest way to do it. So
[46:19] >> okay
[46:21] >> it's all I have on 16
[46:25] >> 17
[46:27] um perhaps number seven at the very top
[46:31] because these are prohibited signs. It
[46:34] starts number seven outdoor decorations
[46:37] maybe comma except as a as allowed under
[46:41] 1113-3
[46:43] which we just went over which is 11 the
[46:46] exempt signs which is for the festivals
[46:48] and boppity bop just because wait a
[46:50] minute you can't do out there I can't I
[46:52] thought we could do it here just you
[46:54] know more info sometimes better
[46:59] um this poll sign number 20 on that page 17. And if we go to a definition of
[47:07] poll signs on page 37,
[47:11] we um we give a definition of a poll
[47:15] sign, but we are saying the poll signs
[47:18] are prohibited. So I I don't know. I I'm
[47:22] just I'm just wondering.
[47:23] >> I want we want the definition there so
[47:25] we can make sure it's prohibited.
[47:26] >> Okay. Okay. That's and and that's fine
[47:28] because we always allowed pole signs in
[47:31] our current. You can have a pole sign.
[47:33] If you have 100 feet, you can go up in
[47:34] the air with one. We're now saying two,
[47:37] which makes it nicer.
[47:41] Okay.
[47:42] >> Yeah. I want to be able to say nah, no
[47:44] pull. So you here's the definition.
[47:47] You've met the definition, so no pull.
[47:49] >> Y.
[47:49] >> So
[47:54] » I don't have anything.
[47:56] >> Well, I have a question.
[47:56] >> Go ahead. I'm sorry.
[47:57] >> On sign programs,
[48:00] uh, I couldn't find a definition of a
[48:03] what a sign program is.
[48:06] >> We may have inadvertently left out the
[48:08] definition. We'll we'll add the
[48:09] definition in. [clears throat]
[48:10] >> Yeah. And uh what would be the and I
[48:16] alluded to this earlier. What would be
[48:18] the process
[48:21] uh for uh individual signs on businesses
[48:27] uh that are included under the sign
[48:30] program.
[48:32] >> So typically a sign program includes a
[48:34] list of conditions that run with the lay
[48:36] of the land. So it's very similar to
[48:37] conditional use permit. So once those
[48:39] get codified um and then they are passed
[48:43] by resolution, we keep the resolution.
[48:45] We actually do have a few sewing
[48:46] programs here in town that are already
[48:48] active um and some of them it's hit and
[48:51] miss because they're not consistent.
[48:52] Some of them say it can be approved at
[48:54] staff level, some say they can't. And so
[48:57] um but the reality comes back to is the
[48:59] whole point of the sign program is it is
[49:01] that there's a program that's laid out
[49:03] it's particularly when you have these
[49:05] smaller shops and the you know trying to
[49:07] direct people to where they need to be
[49:09] or larger shopping centers and the
[49:12] program just basically dictates how the
[49:14] signs are supposed to look where they're
[49:15] supposed to be located and if you meet
[49:17] that criteria city staff should be able
[49:19] to um process a a permit over the
[49:22] counter. And so that that's the
[49:23] intention of the sign program is as
[49:26] tenants come and go um they have a sign
[49:29] program that's approved a new tenant
[49:30] comes in it's like I want to do a new
[49:32] sign. Okay well this has a sign program
[49:33] please see attached and have your sign
[49:36] do everything towards the sign program
[49:37] and we approve it call it a day. Okay.
[49:39] Well, that was uh second going to be the
[49:42] second part of my question that uh in
[49:45] exactly ceremon the situation you uh
[49:49] suggested
[49:51] uh uh new business comes in.
[49:55] Uh would and and you know everything is
[49:59] according to what was in the the sign
[50:03] program that was approved for that.
[50:07] Would that person actually have to come
[50:09] to the city again or can the landlord or
[50:12] owner approve it or do both have to
[50:14] approve it?
[50:15] >> Yeah, again we I mean landlords
[50:16] typically don't really say much unless
[50:18] there's a new placement. Um it's again
[50:20] it's a signed permit. It just would as a
[50:23] condition of the sign permit would
[50:24] simply say if it meets the intent of the
[50:25] sign program, you know, city staff is
[50:27] able to approve the permit through an
[50:28] administrative sign permit. Done. So
[50:30] again,
[50:31] >> it does say sign face,
[50:32] >> right?
[50:33] >> You can you can do that.
[50:34] >> Yeah. And that that's the point of the
[50:36] conditions is is is to have that. Now
[50:38] again a sign program is is different.
[50:40] You want to each that means each site is
[50:43] different. So it's just let's pretend
[50:46] that the Neielson Center one day goes
[50:48] through a massive fateless and they they
[50:49] want a a sign program with a large pylon
[50:52] sign. Well maybe you want to see what it looks like each time a new
[50:57] tenant comes in. So we can condition
[50:58] that the pylon sign specifically when a
[51:00] new tenant comes in it goes to the DRC.
[51:02] You write the condition as such. So that
[51:05] that's that's the beauty of the sign
[51:06] program is it is much more sight
[51:08] specific and and the controls of how we
[51:11] want to see it.
[51:12] >> Yeah. Well, the having the definition
[51:14] would help a lot there.
[51:19] Uh
[51:20] >> I have nothing else on 17.
[51:23] >> Neither do I. I have nothing on 18.
[51:27] >> 18. Um
[51:30] I just a couple
[51:32] uh silly stuff I I suppose. Um
[51:39] re uh let's go to sign permit to a
[51:44] wherever we see review authority.
[51:47] um
[51:49] sign we had to say signage review
[51:51] authority because you do say it in some
[51:53] places and capitalize it because I know
[51:57] what you mean. Um it's so if we just you
[51:59] know this it's it's in your box your
[52:01] table signage review authority and just
[52:03] capitalize them. It's a couple places it
[52:06] is and couple it is not. Same with B.
[52:10] Number one, administrative sign permit
[52:13] capitalized way at the bottom last
[52:15] paragraph.
[52:17] Administrative sign permit is not
[52:18] capitalized. I'm just saying just you'll
[52:21] probably catch that consistent.
[52:23] >> Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, that's that's um
[52:28] >> Yeah,
[52:28] >> appreciate it. Um and then number three
[52:33] at the top of that page sign program I
[52:35] put big question define this and you
[52:37] you've got that and you got that and so
[52:39] we'll get a definition as to how you get
[52:42] a a uh because it's required and so
[52:44] therefore we had a yeah so that was it
[52:48] there.
[52:48] >> I have one other question that I skipped
[52:52] over on the sign program.
[52:56] uh who is responsible for the
[52:59] maintenance of the the signs?
[53:03] >> So, it's typically always the landlord
[53:04] or tenant. So, again, we're we're not
[53:07] responsible for that. We just do the
[53:08] approval.
[53:10] >> But would uh be the would it be the
[53:13] landlord's responsibility to notify a
[53:17] tenant that, hey, your your sign needs
[53:19] to be repainted or freshened up or
[53:22] whatever needs to happen. the latch
[53:25] broke, you need to fix it.
[53:27] >> So, is that something?
[53:30] Some landlords don't do that. The city
[53:31] will come give you a notice and say this
[53:34] is in disrepair and then the landlord
[53:35] will go to the tenant and say get it
[53:37] repaired or vice versa and they'll get
[53:39] it repaired. But these these ticks go
[53:42] against the business owner as we know.
[53:44] I've argued for years and I always lose
[53:46] to the city attorney that we should be
[53:49] finding people and then it should go
[53:50] against the property owner so that
[53:52] there's an enforcement mechanism instead
[53:53] of a business just closing up and going
[53:55] way back to Santa Barbara and leaving
[53:57] $1,000 worth of fines and um not we're
[54:00] trying to collect money. It's just we're trying to enforce. So it's kind of
[54:04] up to correct me if I'm wrong landlord
[54:06] and tenant working it out. it is and I
[54:08] mean if it comes to disrepair then then
[54:10] you we we can find the tenant and that's
[54:13] what we typically have done is we we
[54:14] find the tenant um now we have informed
[54:18] the landlord and some tenants aren't
[54:19] happy about that but you know that's just our way of particularly when
[54:24] we're setting a second and third notice
[54:26] that's when we start slapping on the
[54:27] landlord. Um, but we've really tried to
[54:30] make it at at best practices. Once we
[54:32] send one notice out to a tenant, we
[54:34] actually also CC the property owner that way there's no sort of
[54:38] miscommunication. Well, this is the
[54:39] first time we've heard of it. Well,
[54:40] we've CCD you like six, four copies, so
[54:43] I don't know [laughter]
[54:44] where your mail has been gone. So,
[54:46] >> so what happens and the business gets a
[54:50] notice from the city
[54:52] and
[54:54] you know they you don't know it but
[54:56] they've already decided to close the
[54:58] business and
[55:00] the next day they're gone and their old
[55:03] sign is hanging there. Is it then become
[55:07] does it become the responsibility of the
[55:09] landlord to do that? Yeah, it ultimately
[55:11] eventually does fall into the the
[55:13] landlord, which is why we have a signed
[55:15] maintenance section. So, basically sort
[55:17] of outlines, you know, what that upkeep
[55:19] is. And then, you know, in that same
[55:23] subsection that there's a notice to
[55:25] repair, you know, the director or my
[55:26] designate, you know,
[55:27] >> I was just thinking in particular with
[55:30] the sign program,
[55:33] uh, who's who's responsible for what?
[55:37] >> Again, each reading this, it wasn't
[55:38] clear to me. Each sign program you got
[55:40] to treat it as its own entitlement. So
[55:42] it's not all sign programs are created
[55:44] equal. So again those are exceptions
[55:47] that will carry conditions and those are
[55:49] discussions that happen at each and
[55:51] every individual sign program and not
[55:53] every not every property will have a
[55:54] sign program and that's typically
[55:57] um it's meant for larger properties but
[55:59] is also meant to assist some of our
[56:01] smaller properties that have multiple
[56:03] tenants.
[56:04] >> Yeah. Well, I understand you don't have
[56:06] to have a sign program, but if you do,
[56:09] the the city should have some framework
[56:13] uh size, you know, some objective
[56:15] standards that go into that signed
[56:18] standard or that uh
[56:20] >> program program.
[56:22] >> Yeah. And even even if the doesn't if it
[56:24] stays silent, it it kicks back to our
[56:26] code, which our code has, you know, the
[56:28] basic maintenance requirements that need
[56:30] to get done. So,
[56:34] Raphael, also that I believe you have
[56:35] the findings for the sign program and
[56:37] the ordinance as well. So those would
[56:39] need to be met um for the sign programs.
[56:43] >> Yes, that's correct.
[56:45] >> So section E has the findings that would
[56:46] need to be made to approve those
[56:47] anyways. So
[56:49] >> okay,
[56:53] page 20 or
[56:55] >> I just have a
[56:57] six in the bottom paragraph. It just
[56:59] says established by the director. I
[57:01] think that's community development
[57:03] director. No big deal. But catch that.
[57:06] >> Just uh uh uh one comment on the
[57:13] uh example up at the top of where it
[57:16] says solving shop.
[57:18] You've got XY plus XY. But down here
[57:22] when you're talking about tutoring,
[57:23] you're using ABCD.
[57:26] I think you should use ABCD in the you
[57:30] know
[57:32] uh in both instances again just for
[57:37] consistency.
[57:44] Okay, page 21.
[57:47] Um
[57:48] my here's my question on number seven at
[57:50] the top is measurement of the building
[57:54] facade. um
[57:57] from building frontage and then we slip
[57:59] we we go over to the facade. I think we
[58:01] had to just keep it building frontage
[58:03] but nevertheless um
[58:08] facing to the street. My question here
[58:11] is corners. Is it then streets?
[58:14] >> Yeah, it actually is. So yeah,
[58:16] >> so maybe parallel to the street and put
[58:18] s in parenthesis so people realize that
[58:20] it's both. I I figured it was but
[58:22] >> yeah. Oh, very much. That's the great
[58:24] thing about having a corner lot is you
[58:25] get more signage from your pitch. So
[58:32] » okay.
[58:34] >> Um
[58:37] one under that design and construction e
[58:42] this is this freestanding signs and you
[58:44] know this is a new new uh word that's in
[58:48] our code as far as I know. I remember
[58:50] polls I remember monument but not
[58:52] freestanding. So, it's good that we have
[58:54] it there. Um,
[58:57] I'm I'm I'm not um I guess I'm not
[59:01] understanding. The freestanding signs
[59:03] utilizing bases should be a minimum one
[59:05] foot in height off the ground and three
[59:07] high bases shall be this this.
[59:12] But then if we if I go to page 22 and
[59:18] 23, 22 at the bottom is where
[59:20] freestanding signs start as a header
[59:23] number three. And it starts going up
[59:26] saying under freestanding signs. They
[59:30] have a maximum height of six feet and
[59:32] they can be 32 square feet. And I'm
[59:36] maybe I'm getting them confused. No,
[59:38] that freestanding and this free
[59:39] standing. You've caught an error and it
[59:41] should that should read monument sign
[59:43] that section
[59:43] >> ex or Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
[59:46] Isn't that the monument over there? Yes.
[59:48] >> Okay. We have those smaller freestanding
[59:49] I
[59:50] >> correct. So that should so that is
[59:54] so that should flip to monument sign
[59:56] standards instead. Yep.
[59:57] >> Versus freestand.
[59:58] >> Yep. Under three.
[59:59] >> Yep.
[1:00:00] >> Yes.
[1:00:03] >> And that's what I had on 20. Um I have a
[1:00:07] question about illumination.
[1:00:11] Um
[1:00:13] on uh C it says uh for uh externally
[1:00:18] illuminated signs it says low lumen
[1:00:22] output but internally we specify a
[1:00:26] maximum. Should we specify a maximum for
[1:00:30] the uh externally illuminated signs as
[1:00:33] well? Yeah, we we we could um again the
[1:00:36] external illuminate those are a little
[1:00:37] bit since we're trying to not have the
[1:00:41] internal illuminated ones we most
[1:00:43] certainly can um and I can take a look
[1:00:45] and do a little bit of research on
[1:00:46] what's the best practice on on that
[1:00:50] >> uh look at uh uh color temperature
[1:00:56] uh
[1:00:59] » I think at what point do you want to
[1:01:01] [laughter] regulate this thing to
[1:01:03] I mean, I I agree. Some some
[1:01:05] temperatures are
[1:01:06] >> soft white lights or do you want uh
[1:01:09] >> there's there's candle, there's soft
[1:01:10] white, there's there's a lot. I think at some point
[1:01:15] >> and some are are very bright even though
[1:01:18] the lumens are the same, they appear
[1:01:20] much brighter.
[1:01:21] >> The the blue hue
[1:01:22] >> Yeah. when you get up to the the 5,000
[1:01:24] Kelvin.
[1:01:25] >> I I wish we would handle that with our building lighting, too, because
[1:01:29] some people have gone with these very
[1:01:31] bright. I'm sure they meet the lumens.
[1:01:33] Um, right. I don't know how that's ever
[1:01:35] been handled.
[1:01:36] >> Yeah, we can we could probably extend it
[1:01:37] with foot candles would probably be the
[1:01:39] best uh go about for that. So, again,
[1:01:41] it's more of like the foot candles is
[1:01:43] just how how far away you can see it
[1:01:45] versus lumens. Um, so most certainly we
[1:01:47] can add in the foot candle. Um, and then
[1:01:51] again, the color, I get it. Some colors
[1:01:53] look, you know, better than others. Um,
[1:01:57] >> it's a discussion. I just don't
[1:01:58] >> in the same area. Can you have color
[1:02:02] changing lights as in the park?
[1:02:06] >> Well, the that's city facility city
[1:02:09] stuff. That's exempt. So, we're not I
[1:02:11] mean,
[1:02:11] >> no, but I mean, could somebody do that
[1:02:14] for an externally lit sign and have
[1:02:17] color changing uh uh illuminating?
[1:02:21] >> In theory, yes. So, we could probably
[1:02:23] want to set that to one solid color only
[1:02:27] and let the business No flashing.
[1:02:30] >> No flashing, which flashing is already
[1:02:32] in. So that's already prohibited. So if
[1:02:34] it's flashing and that's already
[1:02:36] prohibited, so um but limiting to one
[1:02:40] solid color is probably the best bet.
[1:02:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. They do have a definition of
[1:02:45] foot candle, but yeah, you're right to
[1:02:47] that.
[1:02:49] >> The last thing on that, again, hate to
[1:02:51] beat it up. C1E,
[1:02:53] freestanding signs again at the top
[1:02:56] there. So C1E on 21
[1:03:00] I wrote here. What are these? I I don't
[1:03:02] know what these freestanding signs are
[1:03:04] that have to be a foot off the ground
[1:03:06] but can't go more than
[1:03:07] >> free. It's a monument sign. So again,
[1:03:09] it's that's it needs. So originally the
[1:03:12] freestanding was just in one category.
[1:03:14] Um and then upon sort of reflection, we
[1:03:17] had this thing called a kiosk sign,
[1:03:19] right?
[1:03:20] >> But it was it's
[1:03:22] a kiosk cuz it move there was a whole
[1:03:24] bunch of things. So instead it's like
[1:03:25] okay when we break out and say monument
[1:03:27] and a freestanding because really that's
[1:03:28] what it is is and that we have a
[1:03:30] freestanding you know menu signs that
[1:03:33] >> but they got to be they can't be more
[1:03:35] than 3 ft. Monuments can be six and a
[1:03:37] half
[1:03:37] >> right. So this so this design and
[1:03:39] construction is more so referring to
[1:03:40] monument signs because again you want
[1:03:42] that base to at least be 1 ft up to give
[1:03:46] the sign height and then you want to max
[1:03:48] out that base on a monument sign to
[1:03:50] three. just about the bases here.
[1:03:52] Correct. These standing signs using
[1:03:54] bases. The bases should have a minimum
[1:03:56] of one foot.
[1:03:57] >> Correct.
[1:03:57] >> Maybe just put comma. The bases should I
[1:04:00] read it four times and and went what? I
[1:04:03] thought it had to be a max of six. Yeah.
[1:04:05] Okay.
[1:04:05] >> We'll add an illustration. We'll add an
[1:04:06] illustration this. I think that'll help out.
[1:04:09] >> And it says they have to be decorative
[1:04:11] and located in a planter. Correct.
[1:04:13] >> Yeah.
[1:04:16] » If they're located in the planter, you
[1:04:18] can't see them, right? Oh, that's the
[1:04:20] point of the base is the base is to
[1:04:22] elevate the sign up post. The post or
[1:04:24] the base, it elevates the sign up. So,
[1:04:27] >> u but again, you still have a maximum
[1:04:28] that you had adhere to, but what what
[1:04:30] you don't want to see is the sign droop
[1:04:32] all the way down to the bottom beyond
[1:04:34] the base and no one can read it because
[1:04:35] again, the intention of the monument
[1:04:36] sign isn't for a pedestrian, it's for
[1:04:38] the motorist.
[1:04:43] » I'm on 23 if if we pass 22. I don't know
[1:04:46] if we have
[1:04:47] >> I I just have a a question on
[1:04:49] freestanding signs in residential
[1:04:52] districts and it talks about uh
[1:04:57] one per property or residential unit
[1:05:00] with multiple units are located in
[1:05:02] common. So uh a house with an ADU
[1:05:06] couldn't have two. It could still only
[1:05:09] have one.
[1:05:10] >> This is our way of calling it a real
[1:05:11] estate sign without calling it a real
[1:05:14] estate sign.
[1:05:15] >> [laughter]
[1:05:18] » because it it's actually all meant to be
[1:05:20] a real estate sign. So, um you got to
[1:05:23] kind of read between the lines a little
[1:05:25] bit. Um because time of display is
[1:05:28] actually what keys it into what it
[1:05:29] actually is.
[1:05:30] >> Seven days of sale,
[1:05:31] >> right? Exactly. So, seven days of sale
[1:05:33] are rented. And so, the reality is this
[1:05:35] is just a a a for rent sign or a for
[1:05:38] sale sign, but we just can't call it
[1:05:41] that due to contentbased messaging.
[1:05:43] >> Okay. But in in residential districts,
[1:05:46] you can put up a a sign
[1:05:49] as long as it meets the the size. And uh
[1:05:54] so given that, I was wondering what
[1:05:57] happens in mixed use where you have a
[1:06:02] business on the ground floor and
[1:06:03] residential on the top.
[1:06:06] >> It depends on again the the sign of what
[1:06:09] we're talking about. So, if you're
[1:06:11] talking like the non-commercial message
[1:06:13] sign,
[1:06:13] >> Yeah.
[1:06:14] >> then if it's got on the the residentials
[1:06:17] on the second and third floor and they
[1:06:18] have a window and as long as it's two
[1:06:21] square feet, knock your two and a half
[1:06:23] square feet, knock your socks off, put
[1:06:24] it on the window. I can't I'm not going
[1:06:26] to control the message even if it's the
[1:06:28] most absurd message known to man.
[1:06:30] >> Right.
[1:06:33] And our ordinance does say businesses or
[1:06:36] entities on the first floor, put your
[1:06:39] signs on first floor, second floor, put
[1:06:40] them on the second floor. So the
[1:06:41] residents by definition is second floor.
[1:06:43] Therefore, that's where it would end up
[1:06:45] being.
[1:06:46] >> Okay.
[1:06:50] Uh on page 23,
[1:06:53] just a a knit uh um at the very bottom
[1:06:58] BC,
[1:07:00] it says maximum 3 and 1/2 ft. It
[1:07:03] probably should be a a maximum of three
[1:07:06] and a half feet.
[1:07:09] Just a knit.
[1:07:12] Um I've got something on F on page 23
[1:07:15] way up at the top. AB CDF
[1:07:19] again this is I I I wrote this twice
[1:07:22] here where we talk about we talked about
[1:07:24] earlier time of display shall be
[1:07:26] temporarily only placed prior and I
[1:07:28] circled prior we need a definition of
[1:07:31] prior as we spoke earlier and it's the
[1:07:33] same down on G straight down on number
[1:07:36] four placed prior to an event shall
[1:07:39] temporarily be placed again that the
[1:07:41] prior is again two days one day what
[1:07:45] whatever that is and it's funny the one
[1:07:47] down below says within two days you take
[1:07:49] it off under G and you go up to F it's 7
[1:07:52] days after the event I know one's a
[1:07:54] banner and one is not a banner one is a
[1:07:57] freestanding sign but one is two days
[1:08:00] after one's seven days after maybe
[1:08:02] because banners are more offensive
[1:08:04] they're bigger I don't really know but
[1:08:06] prior for certain and it would be better
[1:08:08] to me that they would all be consistent
[1:08:10] within 3 days they got to be down or two
[1:08:12] days and prior x amount for because we
[1:08:16] had that earlier in this in
[1:08:17] >> yeah earlier we talked about three days
[1:08:19] they have to be done so you know
[1:08:22] >> so again the freestanding sign on on the
[1:08:25] poll or the the freestanding sign all
[1:08:27] other districts again is is saying it
[1:08:29] without trying to say it's a real estate
[1:08:31] sign more you know that's what it is
[1:08:33] >> seven days um and then again and then
[1:08:36] again F talks about example real estate
[1:08:38] sign shall be uh removed within 7 days
[1:08:41] after the property sold lease or rented
[1:08:43] a sign uh you know a sign for an on-site
[1:08:47] sales event shall be removed within 7
[1:08:48] days after the event. So again trying to
[1:08:50] give those examples the banner sign is 2
[1:08:52] days and that again that's typically
[1:08:54] because
[1:08:55] again what is the event? The event is
[1:08:58] [clears throat]
[1:08:58] um
[1:09:00] >> cowboy Christmas not in our town but
[1:09:02] I'll I'll use it cuz they're coming up.
[1:09:04] Uh so the event is cowboy Christmas that
[1:09:05] is the time frame. Uh so that is the
[1:09:07] prior to the event and then so it's up x
[1:09:10] amount of days prior to said event and
[1:09:12] then they just we can give them more
[1:09:14] time. We just don't want ultimately in
[1:09:16] the end we want to shorten those banner
[1:09:18] signs simply because those are
[1:09:20] >> let's be honest the cheaper made cheaply
[1:09:22] looking signs so we want to just shorten
[1:09:25] that down. Is two days enough?
[1:09:28] Probably not. Maybe extend it out. We
[1:09:30] can extend it to seven just so we're
[1:09:31] consistent. That'd be fine by me.
[1:09:32] >> I'd rather not. But
[1:09:33] >> I I'd rather not either.
[1:09:35] >> I like the two. I I thought two days
[1:09:37] after an election, you should have your
[1:09:38] signs done and two days after the house
[1:09:39] sells get your sign down,
[1:09:40] >> right?
[1:09:41] >> Yeah. I want to see it shorter than
[1:09:42] longer, but that's just kind of prior
[1:09:44] something prior as we discussed. I don't
[1:09:47] know what that answer is.
[1:09:48] >> All right. Um I can noodle on this one.
[1:09:51] Maybe extend it out to maybe five days.
[1:09:53] That that gives enough time because
[1:09:55] usually these banner signs, Lisa,
[1:09:57] they're they're down pretty quick,
[1:09:58] aren't they? So would you say about
[1:10:01] >> usually after
[1:10:02] >> two day? Yeah. A day or two. Yeah. So
[1:10:04] they're down. We just again the real
[1:10:06] estate signs a little bit tougher simply
[1:10:08] because you're you're putting them into
[1:10:09] the ground
[1:10:10] >> and then some guy's got to come and pick
[1:10:12] it out or unless you were me and I took
[1:10:15] mine out as soon as they clos the sale
[1:10:16] because I didn't want the sign up
[1:10:18] anymore. [laughter]
[1:10:20] So
[1:10:24] » that was all I had on 23.
[1:10:27] >> And am I correct that A-frame is only
[1:10:31] allowed in uh commercial zoning
[1:10:33] districts?
[1:10:34] Yes,
[1:10:35] >> that's
[1:10:37] >> yeah only only in in all commercial
[1:10:40] zoning districts. And this was one we
[1:10:41] had a
[1:10:42] >> they're not allowed in residential
[1:10:43] districts.
[1:10:44] >> No. And it's [clears throat]
[1:10:46] fairly rare that we'll see them in in
[1:10:48] residential districts. Usually you you
[1:10:50] may see them in associated with uh the
[1:10:52] schools. That'd be the one sort of
[1:10:54] caveat or a church. Um, which again we
[1:11:00] [clears throat]
[1:11:01] we can also make sure that the PI is
[1:11:03] covered in there. Now that I'm really
[1:11:05] thinking about it, so we'll we'll make
[1:11:07] sure the public zones
[1:11:08] >> I was thinking of uh at the the church
[1:11:12] down here where they have their food
[1:11:14] program. They usually have an a sign
[1:11:17] A-frame sign set up out there, but it's
[1:11:20] just for the day,
[1:11:21] >> right? And the food program is is uh is
[1:11:24] SNAP and other government sort of funded
[1:11:27] which is now covered from exempt. So
[1:11:30] again, we're just really trying to make
[1:11:31] sure we cover our basis to make sure
[1:11:33] that th those type of things are are
[1:11:35] exempt.
[1:11:38] » Okay.
[1:11:41] I've got a couple things on 24 if we're
[1:11:44] there. I don't know.
[1:11:45] >> We're there.
[1:11:46] >> Um
[1:11:48] I know what we're trying to do here in
[1:11:50] the A-frames. Um, I was against ever
[1:11:52] allowing A-frames, but I lost that one
[1:11:54] also, so I'm fine with that. Um, so I
[1:11:58] know that what you're what we're trying
[1:11:59] to do is saying the the when you look at
[1:12:01] G really gets into the meat of it, um,
[1:12:05] under under the G at the top, it's after
[1:12:08] 30 days, then the verbiage needs to
[1:12:12] change
[1:12:14] to something else. And then I guess
[1:12:15] after 30 days, you can go back to the
[1:12:17] verbiage you had before 30 days. and
[1:12:20] every you could just keep doing two of
[1:12:21] them throughout the year. I I think it's
[1:12:24] going to be really tough to to enforce
[1:12:26] that. I know what we're trying to do to
[1:12:28] not just have it look like it's a
[1:12:29] permanent one. And I like that we it c
[1:12:32] it has to go in. I disagree with five
[1:12:35] o'clock because right now the sun went
[1:12:36] down at five and there are restaurants
[1:12:39] open and it says the earlier five
[1:12:41] o'clock or earlier sunset or the
[1:12:44] business closing it ought to be the
[1:12:47] later sunset or the I don't but
[1:12:50] certainly when the business closed now
[1:12:52] you can't illuminate them but there's
[1:12:53] lots of lights out there on the
[1:12:55] sidewalks that that people can still see
[1:12:57] those happy hour signs or or soup signs
[1:13:01] whatever it is. We'd be happy to
[1:13:03] eliminate it just to make it easiness. I
[1:13:06] mean, again,
[1:13:07] >> I do.
[1:13:08] >> Yeah. It's
[1:13:10] >> we just don't want them out at night.
[1:13:12] Yeah.
[1:13:12] >> This is this is the first cut and I as
[1:13:14] I've said to our council um and I'll say
[1:13:17] it to y'all.
[1:13:18] >> Um you know, we're not going to get it
[1:13:20] right the first time. Well, we got to we got to let it start.
[1:13:24] >> We got to let it cook and figure
[1:13:25] [laughter] out the the spice content.
[1:13:27] >> No. And uh if we don't get it right the
[1:13:30] first time, then we may need to dial it
[1:13:31] down or may need to dial it up, but we
[1:13:33] got to got to give it one crack first.
[1:13:35] So, um I understand I I think the
[1:13:38] intention was that we didn't want
[1:13:40] A-frame signs in the dark and then
[1:13:42] someone hitting it and so but close a
[1:13:45] business. I mean, obviously, you know,
[1:13:47] sun went down pretty early today, um as
[1:13:50] it's winter now
[1:13:51] >> and so um yeah, close a business is just
[1:13:54] as good. So,
[1:13:55] >> okay.
[1:13:57] Um, under banner signs, number two, um,
[1:14:04] we go down to they're allowed, one per
[1:14:08] business, [snorts] 20 square ft. It's
[1:14:11] very large, 2 ft by 10 ft, very large.
[1:14:15] Um, location on a structure, not to be
[1:14:18] located above the first story or on a
[1:14:20] roof. Um, shall not be placed on a
[1:14:22] fence. It's the time of display. So,
[1:14:25] it's a maximum of seven consecutive days
[1:14:28] up to twice a year in the VMU district.
[1:14:35] So,
[1:14:38] and then if you look up the definition
[1:14:40] of what a sign is, it's anything that
[1:14:42] you want it to be. And so, I use a an
[1:14:46] example of Denmark Square. And you've
[1:14:50] got
[1:14:51] I put a banner up that says now open.
[1:14:53] Then I move it over to the next one. Now
[1:14:55] open. I go this next one. Now open. We
[1:14:58] just keep doing it around until we get
[1:15:00] seven consecutive days till it loops me
[1:15:03] twice and there's 15 shops. I just think
[1:15:06] it's excessive. I I don't know how we
[1:15:08] what what the better thing is, but I
[1:15:11] just it just banners again. I I can't
[1:15:15] believe that we're really allowing
[1:15:18] banners on businesses. I know what
[1:15:20] they're designed to do. Having a sale.
[1:15:22] So the shoe store has a sale twice a
[1:15:24] year and it's up for seven days. Outside
[1:15:26] it's 14. Makes sense.
[1:15:29] It can be abused where that sign because
[1:15:34] it doesn't have to say sale. It can just
[1:15:35] say open come visit. Then I just give it
[1:15:38] to my neighbor and the neighbor and the
[1:15:40] neighbor and we just have these banner
[1:15:42] signs up all the way around. I'd rather
[1:15:45] have it say something like and maybe we
[1:15:47] can't control content
[1:15:49] >> sale. No.
[1:15:50] >> Or special event.
[1:15:52] >> No,
[1:15:52] >> it just it just it can say anything
[1:15:54] because you look in definition sign. It
[1:15:55] can say anything we want to say. Now
[1:15:57] open come visit the square. And we just
[1:15:59] keep passing that thing
[1:16:01] >> around and around.
[1:16:02] >> That's content. And we don't we're we're
[1:16:05] already So the problem is right now with
[1:16:06] our banner signs is one,
[1:16:10] it doesn't even limit. There is no time
[1:16:12] duration. It allows it, believe it or
[1:16:14] not. It's there but it's it's basically
[1:16:17] it's some convoluted
[1:16:19] 10 days before opening 5 days after
[1:16:22] opening
[1:16:24] at less than four square ft and then can
[1:16:28] be done if this is this special. It's completely convoluted whereas this
[1:16:32] is much easier to enforce. Now
[1:16:34] >> could we make it smaller than 20 square
[1:16:36] ft?
[1:16:37] >> We most certainly most certainly can um
[1:16:40] >> with 10 you know
[1:16:41] >> we can make it extremely
[1:16:43] performance-based. So again by
[1:16:45] performance space meaning if you're in
[1:16:48] 50 50 square 50 linear feet is pretty
[1:16:50] much the cut off. So one we can change
[1:16:52] it to where it says number of signs one
[1:16:53] per business or property or one per
[1:16:56] property. So then now you're really
[1:16:57] beginning to limit like hey man sorry
[1:17:00] you can't pass it out. It's one per
[1:17:02] property. Um two is you we can go down
[1:17:07] you know 20 square ft we can bring it
[1:17:10] down to 16. Um 12 is the lowest you
[1:17:14] should probably go for these things. Um
[1:17:16] but again, we're really just trying to
[1:17:18] strike this balance of we don't get many
[1:17:21] banner signs. The most times we actually
[1:17:23] get asked for banner signs. And correct
[1:17:25] me if I'm wrong, Lisa. That's typically
[1:17:26] when a business wants to open up
[1:17:29] >> or close. Those are typically the only
[1:17:31] times we have probably maybe I can count
[1:17:33] on my hand the number of times someone
[1:17:35] has asked for a banner sign for like a
[1:17:36] special sale,
[1:17:37] >> but it's mainly just revolving around
[1:17:39] those two items. is now granted we have
[1:17:42] had a certain business that's had
[1:17:44] >> an extended amount of uh
[1:17:46] >> band of signs
[1:17:47] >> closing sale [laughter]
[1:17:51] » hence again time place manner um which
[1:17:53] we which adds us so
[1:17:56] >> I'm if you you know 20 was a number that
[1:17:59] originally it was down to 16 then we put
[1:18:01] it to 20 I mean you know we can go
[1:18:03] either or um you know
[1:18:07] >> I just like them smaller I mean
[1:18:08] >> yeah 16 16 is now you're at the 4x4,
[1:18:11] >> right?
[1:18:12] >> Um, and again, we can keep it at 20 and
[1:18:14] say if it's between if you're over 50,
[1:18:16] you can get 20. Uh, if you're under 50,
[1:18:18] hey, you can you got to go down to to to
[1:18:21] 12 or 16.
[1:18:22] >> There you go.
[1:18:22] >> I like that. And I I like the idea of
[1:18:25] per property also, unless you find some
[1:18:27] pitfall with that. that would take care
[1:18:29] of the
[1:18:29] >> the only thing with per property is if
[1:18:31] one person has a sale twice a year and
[1:18:34] he's used up the entire properties, you
[1:18:36] know, then you get into how come he got
[1:18:38] it twice or she got it twice and so I I
[1:18:41] get that. It's just to me it was an
[1:18:43] awful lot and then they were so big and the thing about the size too, if we
[1:18:49] think about our community, this isn't we
[1:18:52] don't have a freeway running through
[1:18:53] town where you've got to have something
[1:18:54] that massive to catch it. things are
[1:18:57] going kind of at a pedestrian pace here,
[1:18:59] even if you're in a car. So, I don't
[1:19:00] know that you need a great size to draw
[1:19:04] that level of advertising.
[1:19:06] >> We can tighten it up. Um, we could
[1:19:08] definitely break it out a little bit
[1:19:09] further um and take a look through our
[1:19:11] GIS what our linear feed is and then
[1:19:13] just do a quick query and then try to
[1:19:16] come up with obviously anything under 25
[1:19:18] you go down to 12. Again, we're really
[1:19:21] just trying to make sure you expand the
[1:19:22] space out. Um and then obviously 32
[1:19:26] square feet it we're really looking at
[1:19:27] Neielson's and right
[1:19:29] >> and and uh the merkantiel and then out
[1:19:33] you know
[1:19:34] >> those are big
[1:19:36] >> but I'll be happy to come up with
[1:19:37] performance standards based on this you
[1:19:39] know conversation and um amend as
[1:19:43] needed. So
[1:19:47] » my my last one on 24 is maybe I'm just
[1:19:50] not following it. Um permanent signs at
[1:19:54] the very bottom.
[1:19:56] Um
[1:19:58] permanent signs are going to be your your your blade signs are going to
[1:20:02] be your wall signs. They're going to be
[1:20:03] your ground sign. I so I'm not really
[1:20:06] following that. The maximum
[1:20:09] signage size allowed should be 20 square
[1:20:12] feet. By the way, same as the banner
[1:20:14] total
[1:20:16] 20 the maximum. It's not per sign square
[1:20:19] feet or the one square foot per lineal.
[1:20:23] Whichever is less, was it not whichever
[1:20:26] is more?
[1:20:27] >> Yeah. No, it wasn't that's the DRC did
[1:20:29] want the less. And again, it comes back
[1:20:30] to at that point now you're really
[1:20:33] beginning to just pick and choose what
[1:20:35] you want. Um, do you want a very large
[1:20:39] >> ridiculous that that they I mean and
[1:20:42] look they that's what they recommended.
[1:20:44] That's fine.
[1:20:45] >> It does and that's where the sign
[1:20:46] program comes in and that's again it
[1:20:48] it's it's basically it's a I call it the
[1:20:51] choose your own adventure map. And so um
[1:20:55] there's the easy way. You can do it this
[1:20:57] way and call it a day or if you really
[1:20:59] want to go out there at gusto and you're
[1:21:02] very adamant then we'll give you a path
[1:21:05] out. Um it just it's you'll have to ask
[1:21:09] for the exceptions. Um
[1:21:12] so again we're we're
[1:21:14] >> yeah I I to me I
[1:21:18] it should be on we use this linear
[1:21:20] frontage so that there's a increase if
[1:21:23] you're bigger and you're decreased if
[1:21:26] you're smaller which makes perfectly
[1:21:28] good sense. I know it's subjective that
[1:21:31] a very small shop could would come in
[1:21:33] and go, I want I want 20 square feet of
[1:21:35] signage and I've only got X amount of of
[1:21:38] L feet. I got my or I got my 20 ft so I
[1:21:41] can have my 20 square feet so I match it
[1:21:43] on both.
[1:21:44] >> And then you've got someone like again
[1:21:45] Copen House, Kahuna, um the big the big
[1:21:49] guys in in town that 20 square feet.
[1:21:51] None of these signs I I could walk you
[1:21:53] up and down the street, none of them are
[1:21:54] going to meet it. You're never going to
[1:21:55] get those again. 20 is nothing. It's is
[1:21:59] seven square feet. Eight square feet
[1:22:01] signs. That's two and a half of them.
[1:22:03] That's all that's all that a place can
[1:22:05] ever have is two and a half signs. An
[1:22:08] eight and an eight and a four. Done.
[1:22:11] >> And again, that's where the sign program
[1:22:12] allows in the asking for the exceptions.
[1:22:14] And that's
[1:22:15] >> I know, but man, now you got to appeal
[1:22:17] and we know how those go and you appeal.
[1:22:20] I I'm just I'm just surprised that DRC
[1:22:23] went from
[1:22:23] >> to know the exceptions would would go to
[1:22:26] the DRC, right? They wouldn't be over
[1:22:28] the counter,
[1:22:29] >> right? Of course, they go to DRC
[1:22:30] >> and then it goes to planning and then it
[1:22:32] goes to city council and
[1:22:34] >> so we so we can do is we can flag this
[1:22:37] and then bring it to city council and
[1:22:40] then um I mean I I see the argument for
[1:22:43] it as well. Um usually as you have the
[1:22:45] larger linear footage you go up. That's
[1:22:48] what it's
[1:22:48] >> which usually it's always been. Um you
[1:22:52] have certain members in the DRC that
[1:22:54] want to keep it small. Um
[1:22:58] and I'm not doubting their judgment. I
[1:23:00] just um I don't know if any of them have
[1:23:02] businesses in town and realize that 20
[1:23:05] square feet is not a lot for these large
[1:23:08] Burkholmes bakery.
[1:23:11] I mean an eight an eight and a four, you
[1:23:13] know. Uh it's just it's they're
[1:23:16] solving Bruco. I mean these are these
[1:23:19] are big and these apply to hotels. I'm
[1:23:22] assuming hotels aren't exempt. There's
[1:23:24] not one hotel sign that's under 20
[1:23:25] square feet in this town. So if they
[1:23:27] ever change names, it's gone. They're they're they're not conforming
[1:23:32] any longer.
[1:23:32] >> Well, the structure I take the cork for
[1:23:35] instance. The cork went out of business
[1:23:37] and um the sign structure is there and
[1:23:39] they're just changing the face of the
[1:23:41] sign. This new ordinance says face
[1:23:43] changes
[1:23:45] off you go.
[1:23:46] >> So a name change, business change is
[1:23:47] okay.
[1:23:48] >> You get a what it is. Well, you know, as
[1:23:51] an individual, I'll go to city council
[1:23:52] and say 20 is ridiculous. Win that or I
[1:23:55] won't win that.
[1:23:55] >> And and again, that's fine by us and
[1:23:58] then we could go back a little bit and
[1:24:00] start accepting things out where we say,
[1:24:02] okay, well, if you're going to use a
[1:24:03] blade sign, suspended sign, that's
[1:24:04] exempted from it. If you're going to use
[1:24:07] uh a if you're going to use awning sign,
[1:24:10] that's also exempt. Okay. Well, now
[1:24:13] what's left? So, [laughter] there's various ways to slice it. We we
[1:24:17] can most certainly bring this to the
[1:24:19] city council attention.
[1:24:20] >> Well, and I know that there's an example
[1:24:22] of the new shop that went in town, which
[1:24:25] they have, you know, four or five signs,
[1:24:28] maybe six signs because they went, "Oh,
[1:24:29] I'll just do a bunch of small ones." And
[1:24:31] this eliminates that because what are
[1:24:33] you going to do 10 that are two square
[1:24:34] feet? I mean, we we can do that. It's
[1:24:36] going to be cluttered and it's going to
[1:24:38] look ridiculous. And so, it's got to be
[1:24:41] that that's another big shop in town.
[1:24:43] And so, there's some really large shops
[1:24:46] in town that that um the shoe store. I
[1:24:48] mean, my gosh, 20 square feet, it's
[1:24:50] really not a lot. But anyway, that's it
[1:24:54] is what it is. That's just I'm just
[1:24:55] voicing my
[1:24:56] >> And the other the other way is is is 20
[1:24:59] square feet, one square feet per line, a
[1:25:02] maximum of 40. I mean there's there's a
[1:25:04] ton of ways we can slice this. Correct.
[1:25:05] So
[1:25:06] >> correct.
[1:25:06] >> All right.
[1:25:07] >> Correct. So then it the bigger you are
[1:25:09] you can go up to that and the smaller is that.
[1:25:12] >> So we will we'll
[1:25:13] >> it's just not one size fits all is my
[1:25:15] point.
[1:25:15] >> We'll do more analysis but [laughter]
[1:25:18] your your point is taken on there.
[1:25:22] >> Okay. Moving on. 25 and
[1:25:25] >> can I ask 25 C obviously at the top. Is
[1:25:28] that a multi-ten? Is that a directory?
[1:25:31] Is that what that is?
[1:25:33] >> No, it's just it's simply trying to
[1:25:35] allow again this is one way of um trying
[1:25:39] to solve a riddle for some of our
[1:25:43] centers that we have in the downtown.
[1:25:45] >> Okay.
[1:25:45] >> Um allowing sort of this additional
[1:25:49] signage through a sign program. And so
[1:25:52] um you know we that's that's been a bone
[1:25:56] of contention is well we're all the way
[1:25:57] in the back. They can't see us. How do
[1:25:58] we get people there? Well,
[1:26:01] you you chose where you wanted to rent,
[1:26:03] but um again, it's it's just trying to
[1:26:06] figure out how we can do a multi-tenant,
[1:26:10] you know, get some sort of sign program
[1:26:13] that allows for direct just that
[1:26:16] directory sign, but in a much more
[1:26:17] tasteful manner.
[1:26:18] >> No, that I I No, I get it. Um because
[1:26:22] the next page has the directory sign.
[1:26:25] The very next page has directory signed
[1:26:27] with the definition. And I'm just
[1:26:30] wondering, are we being redundant? Is
[1:26:32] this multi-tenant signage? Seems like
[1:26:36] that's a directory and we're allowing
[1:26:39] one lineal square foot.
[1:26:42] >> It's a little bit different
[1:26:43] >> per storefront frontage. So again, if if
[1:26:46] that's the case, if I've got 30 lineal
[1:26:49] feet, I could have 30 square feet of
[1:26:52] signage, but I can't because I can't do
[1:26:55] it here. But here, if it's a
[1:26:57] multi-tenant, I can. Or is it the
[1:26:59] directory can be that big?
[1:27:01] >> It's again, it's just more again, it's
[1:27:03] entering into a sign program, which is
[1:27:05] trying to add a little bit more
[1:27:06] creativity. So you got you got to
[1:27:08] remember that the sign program is your
[1:27:09] ultimate sort of
[1:27:11] >> passcode to unlock creativity. So you're
[1:27:13] not locked in to the standards that are
[1:27:15] sitting in there.
[1:27:16] >> Okay.
[1:27:17] >> And so while you can have a directory
[1:27:19] sign you, yeah, you can have that all
[1:27:21] day long. Um but then maybe you want to
[1:27:24] do a painted wall sign with that has a
[1:27:25] directory on it that's pretty large. And
[1:27:27] so again, just trying to be more
[1:27:29] creative with um the multi-tenants to
[1:27:33] try to get them to unify under one sign
[1:27:36] versus what's kind of being done right
[1:27:39] now is and I don't want to name names,
[1:27:42] but [laughter]
[1:27:43] This might be a better way to sort of
[1:27:45] help and alleviate that situation.
[1:27:48] >> Got it.
[1:27:51] That was it on 25.
[1:27:53] >> Okay. I I have nothing on 26.
[1:27:56] >> I have nothing on 26. I thought it was
[1:27:58] redundant with directory and
[1:27:59] multi-tenant. I couldn't understand it.
[1:28:01] Sorry.
[1:28:02] >> Nothing on 27 either.
[1:28:04] >> Um 27
[1:28:08] and I could be wrong and not reading it
[1:28:10] correctly. It's monu monument sign. If
[1:28:14] we go into the special requirements box,
[1:28:17] um I I think that it would be clearer if
[1:28:21] it would didn't say it said monument
[1:28:23] sign. Instead of freestanding signage
[1:28:25] under A and under D and under E, unless
[1:28:28] I'm not understanding it. Uh, no. That's
[1:28:31] that again was a l was a monument sign
[1:28:34] that I I will take my air and my
[1:28:36] lashings for not making sure those are
[1:28:39] changed out that they should they should
[1:28:41] read monument for all of them. So,
[1:28:45] >> and then the the other thing is the the
[1:28:48] sign the bottom box is that is called
[1:28:51] out the display case. Can a can a menu
[1:28:52] go in that? Is that what that is?
[1:28:54] >> Yes, that's that's the intention of it.
[1:28:56] Yeah. But again, we can't call it menu.
[1:28:58] Yes, [laughter]
[1:28:58] but you can. It's a display. Okay.
[1:29:00] >> It's very much a display case. What it
[1:29:02] displays, I don't know.
[1:29:04] >> Usually a menu. [laughter]
[1:29:05] >> Yes,
[1:29:08] >> that is absolutely fine. And just a
[1:29:11] clarification, if somebody wanted to put
[1:29:13] a window that opens from the outside
[1:29:16] that is a um what do you call it? A
[1:29:18] boxed window, but you can't get to it
[1:29:20] because it's got a a sheer panled wall
[1:29:22] that you can't go in. You wouldn't call
[1:29:24] it a sign. you go to the DRC and get
[1:29:26] approval for a window that's exterior,
[1:29:28] that's a display window that has a
[1:29:30] locking key. I mean, I I don't Right. It
[1:29:33] wouldn't be considered a sign.
[1:29:35] >> Yeah, that's not considered a sign. And
[1:29:36] it doesn't even go to DRC anymore. It
[1:29:38] goes to us first. [laughter] So, Got
[1:29:40] >> Yeah. I mean, it's Yeah. Again,
[1:29:43] >> that's facads. Those are different.
[1:29:45] We're we're talking pure signs here.
[1:29:47] Like in this instance, a display case.
[1:29:49] And I think we had one uh recently. for
[1:29:52] forget which one that wanted this.
[1:29:54] >> Park.
[1:29:55] >> Parkplace. Yeah, Parkplace had a display
[1:29:57] sign yet we didn't technically have the
[1:29:59] regs for it. Don't ask. It's there now.
[1:30:01] [laughter] So,
[1:30:02] >> I get it.
[1:30:08] » Okay.
[1:30:10] >> 28.
[1:30:12] I'm I'm curious as to under the box at
[1:30:16] the top and the box at the bottom where
[1:30:18] it says number of signs permitted.
[1:30:21] You can only have one
[1:30:24] of the window letterings. You can only
[1:30:26] have one of these hanging suspended
[1:30:30] sides. That's that's I'm reading that
[1:30:32] correct.
[1:30:33] >> You are correct. But so let's take
[1:30:35] >> same with the wall sign on the Well,
[1:30:36] that that gives you one on the next
[1:30:38] page. It gives you one per public street
[1:30:40] frontage, but this is just one and one.
[1:30:43] >> So you can't have two of those.
[1:30:46] >> And yeah, we want them mixed up,
[1:30:49] >> right? So, we want them to one. And the
[1:30:51] other uh issue here is um with the
[1:30:54] window sign and and we want to make sure
[1:30:58] you under special requirements that the
[1:30:59] window sign a permanent window lettering
[1:31:01] can extend to multiple windows.
[1:31:02] >> Correct. Has to be one pane. It's only
[1:31:04] 25% or whatever the numbers are. Yeah.
[1:31:06] Makes sense.
[1:31:07] >> So, that is something I just now I'm
[1:31:09] really thinking through because again,
[1:31:12] if you're going to do it and you extend
[1:31:14] it out, we should be able to extend it
[1:31:16] out to Windows. So, we just want to
[1:31:18] clarify that it could be on multiple
[1:31:19] windows, but it'll be counted as one
[1:31:21] sign.
[1:31:22] >> Then the the only thing on on the bottom
[1:31:25] of that page, which corresponds over to
[1:31:28] um the wall signs, is something that
[1:31:30] Brian Schneider brought up, 805 signs.
[1:31:33] I've talked to him many times about
[1:31:35] quarter inch or half inch thickness on
[1:31:38] lettering. And his argument was the
[1:31:40] shadowing. you get to a half inch and
[1:31:43] the if you have a sign you have a light
[1:31:45] over it it it kind of disappears a
[1:31:47] quarter inch he believes is is good and
[1:31:50] we over on on wall sign we do say
[1:31:53] quarter inch under D but on this one we
[1:31:57] say under B half inch um depth and one
[1:32:03] is a bigger sign than the other one I
[1:32:06] mean that'll either be consistent but
[1:32:09] he's argued with me that quarter inch
[1:32:10] looks better from a a lit sign with all
[1:32:13] the shadowing that goes in even with the
[1:32:15] sun down and things like that. But I
[1:32:16] don't know why they picked quarter and a
[1:32:19] half as differences signs
[1:32:21] >> and in fact the wall signs much bigger.
[1:32:23] >> Yeah, Brian did make this argument for
[1:32:24] the projecting signs of letter depth and
[1:32:26] that's in your blue folder.
[1:32:28] >> Um type of sign should be top letter
[1:32:30] depth of 1/2 should be one quarter to
[1:32:32] match the wall sign specs plus carving
[1:32:34] out. And we did have this discussion
[1:32:36] with Brian um at DRC. he he was generous
[1:32:39] enough uh to lend his um eyes to our
[1:32:44] signed ordinance uh and reviewing it as someone who works in the industry. Um
[1:32:49] so I I typically when it comes to that I defer to someone in the industry who
[1:32:53] knows what they're doing and so more
[1:32:55] than likely we'll we'll probably take
[1:32:56] this into pretty good consideration as
[1:32:58] part of the next iteration.
[1:33:00] >> That's I figured it was a yeah slip up
[1:33:03] or something. Who knows?
[1:33:09] I have nothing else on that. Um
[1:33:13] I'm a little worried about the mural on
[1:33:15] page 30 as as we spoke earlier.
[1:33:18] >> Yeah, we'll bet go back to 29 again
[1:33:22] under definition of a mural. Shouldn't
[1:33:25] that be in the definition section? I
[1:33:28] know you have mural defined, but this
[1:33:31] after reading this and what you have in
[1:33:33] definitions, I think this is a much
[1:33:35] better definition of a mural.
[1:33:38] >> The mural should match. Yeah. So, that
[1:33:40] one they'll they'll we'll re we'll make
[1:33:42] sure the murals match definition wise
[1:33:45] that uh 113.
[1:33:47] >> Just take B out of here and put it into
[1:33:50] the definitions.
[1:33:52] >> Yeah. And that's just as good. So,
[1:33:57] because I thought this was a good
[1:34:00] definition.
[1:34:02] >> Yeah. And again, this is uh a little bit
[1:34:05] uh
[1:34:06] PTSD from both Dave Fleshman and I. Uh
[1:34:10] Dave's not here. I know Taylor's on the
[1:34:12] line, but um you know, Dave had a a sign
[1:34:16] uh mural go completely sideways as as
[1:34:20] have I um in two municipalities um that
[1:34:25] I formerly work at. So, a lot of it is
[1:34:28] leading up to PTSD and really what it
[1:34:30] comes down to is really trying to shield
[1:34:33] those of you up here um and let us take
[1:34:37] the hits and cover on that because again
[1:34:39] it it's so subjective. So, we just want
[1:34:41] to really just keep it to the box. Uh
[1:34:44] but we'll bring this to city council's
[1:34:46] attention.
[1:34:49] » Okay.
[1:34:53] » 30.
[1:34:54] Nothing.
[1:34:55] >> Uh I have a question under where it says
[1:34:59] review authority D. It says with the
[1:35:02] standards in subsection
[1:35:06] which sub section
[1:35:10] >> uh plug that hole to make sure it's a
[1:35:12] standard of subsections um
[1:35:16] with a standard in in this it should
[1:35:18] read in this section. So, which would be
[1:35:21] 111310B.
[1:35:25] Oh, yeah.
[1:35:31] No, 11310B1 which is murals. So, that's
[1:35:33] what it should be.
[1:35:38] » And uh under uh the standards
[1:35:44] uh does this apply anywhere in the city?
[1:35:49] Yes.
[1:35:51] >> Residential, commercial, industrial,
[1:35:54] wherever somebody wants to put up a
[1:35:56] mural. As long as they meet these
[1:35:59] requirements, they can.
[1:36:00] >> Yes. Because I I have seen where people
[1:36:02] have turned their garage into a mural.
[1:36:05] >> Yes, there's one right up the street.
[1:36:06] >> There's one up the street. Looks good.
[1:36:09] >> Yeah. I I happen to like it, but a lot
[1:36:11] of people don't.
[1:36:14] >> But uh that's PTSD. That's the whole
[1:36:16] [laughter] point, right?
[1:36:20] 31.
[1:36:22] >> Um,
[1:36:23] >> I keep looking at Aaron. Bill, do you, know, speak up. I
[1:36:26] >> Oh, I I will. I'm listening. You guys
[1:36:29] have been very thorough and I truly
[1:36:31] appreciate Aaron's business perspective
[1:36:34] as he looks at this from both sides. You
[1:36:36] have a large building and perhaps you're
[1:36:38] being restricted or something could be a
[1:36:41] nuisance because there are too many. So,
[1:36:43] I'm I'm actually learning a lot and
[1:36:45] listening. So, thank you both. It's
[1:36:46] because we're been doing it forever,
[1:36:48] right?
[1:36:48] >> Yeah.
[1:36:50] >> Um 31. We're back to the freestanding
[1:36:54] sign.
[1:36:56] >> Yes. The true freanding sign on to be
[1:36:58] confused with the monument sign.
[1:36:59] >> Yeah.
[1:37:00] >> Maximum sign area. This is the four
[1:37:01] square feet. I get it. The height is
[1:37:03] five. Perfect. Um lower edge is three.
[1:37:07] That's I mean it just works out. The
[1:37:09] number is the question I have. None for
[1:37:12] properties with less than 50 lineal
[1:37:14] feet. Is it properties or is it
[1:37:18] businesses or tenants? Sometimes we
[1:37:21] interchange those um those words.
[1:37:24] >> So, this is a new cut. The DRC's not
[1:37:26] seen this. So, you are the first one to
[1:37:28] see this. Um again, based on sort of the
[1:37:32] review of the three meetings and really
[1:37:34] trying to make see what's out there,
[1:37:36] what we got.
[1:37:38] This is a tough one because again, this
[1:37:40] is my first cut at this is is really
[1:37:45] I don't want to name names, but we have
[1:37:48] certain properties
[1:37:50] that uh certain business owners
[1:37:53] want to have this type of signage and
[1:37:55] they want them at uh the both public
[1:37:58] entries that are available. So, if you
[1:38:01] do it per business, you start
[1:38:03] multiplying then
[1:38:04] >> buy that
[1:38:05] >> by that versus if you do it per
[1:38:07] property, we're just saying, hey, we're going to cap you. And the reason
[1:38:12] 50 is chosen is we don't have many
[1:38:14] properties with a 50ft linear frontage.
[1:38:17] So what we're trying to avoid is if
[1:38:20] you're a business, small business
[1:38:24] and you don't have the 50 ft, you don't
[1:38:25] get this because you you don't really
[1:38:27] need it. Um we're really trying to
[1:38:29] capture those businesses that are have a
[1:38:31] deeper sort of lot depth or so hence why
[1:38:34] that the 50 says you can't none. So 50
[1:38:37] to 100 in looking at our GIS, we we have
[1:38:40] quite a few there where these are
[1:38:42] already at. And so we want to limit
[1:38:45] those to to just say, "Hey, look, if
[1:38:48] you're in the 50 to 100, you get one."
[1:38:51] So landlord, you need to figure this
[1:38:53] out. We're not going to figure it out
[1:38:54] for you. You all need to figure this
[1:38:57] out. And then at the greater than 100
[1:39:00] linear feet, which we have a couple of
[1:39:01] them, and again, these are these are
[1:39:03] both. So, if you're corner corner lot
[1:39:05] like the Copenhagen house, you you know,
[1:39:08] you'll you'll have this. You'll be able
[1:39:09] to do it no problem. Which kind of makes
[1:39:11] sense. The larger the lot, the bigger
[1:39:13] the more you're going to be able to get
[1:39:15] this done. But the reality comes back to
[1:39:17] we don't want a proliferation of these
[1:39:19] on our smaller properties and business.
[1:39:22] So, hence why one it says property
[1:39:23] versus business and two was really
[1:39:26] analyzing what we actually have out
[1:39:28] there in terms of linear frontage. I'm
[1:39:30] not married to this. This is my first
[1:39:32] cut, but this is just trying to really
[1:39:33] think this through.
[1:39:34] >> It makes makes sense. You're um and it
[1:39:37] wouldn't matter. So, use a business
[1:39:39] anywhere they um you get one. You say
[1:39:42] you've got 55 ft. It could be either for
[1:39:46] the building or it could be for an
[1:39:48] individual business. Again, it's up to
[1:39:50] the landlord, the business guy. If it's
[1:39:52] the same building and business, peasants
[1:39:54] feast, well, then there's no arguments.
[1:39:56] But if it's the other way, then there is
[1:39:58] and you got to figure it out because
[1:39:59] you're only getting one,
[1:40:00] >> right? So, and that's that's the great
[1:40:02] thing about it because in one particular
[1:40:04] property that I'm thinking of,
[1:40:06] >> they got two right next to each other,
[1:40:08] >> right? And third one
[1:40:09] >> and a third one on the other side. Okay.
[1:40:11] Well, and two of them sit in planters
[1:40:14] that are bolted to the ground and
[1:40:17] >> god they look ugly. And so, [laughter]
[1:40:19] it's just
[1:40:20] >> why not solidify that? give them a
[1:40:23] little bit larger space than what was
[1:40:25] originally allowed, but say, "Hey, look,
[1:40:27] if you can share and divide, be our
[1:40:29] guest." But one, put it in a permanent
[1:40:31] base. Two, put it at a height, max it
[1:40:34] out. No additional signage, no
[1:40:36] additional arrows, no nothing.
[1:40:38] >> Um, again,
[1:40:41] and then here
[1:40:44] figuring out how does this play into the
[1:40:46] extra 20 ft. Um, it may be exempted, it
[1:40:50] may not. So, we we need to figure that
[1:40:52] out as well. So, again, this is more of
[1:40:53] a first cut. Um, and just trying to get
[1:40:56] some sort of feedback on this one.
[1:40:59] >> And if we go back to page 27, outdoor
[1:41:02] display case sign. There's another 2 by
[1:41:04] two. It's four square feet. I'm thinking
[1:41:07] of a building that has three
[1:41:08] restaurants. You could each have one of
[1:41:10] those. It's the freestanding sign that
[1:41:13] is limited by the lineage.
[1:41:16] >> That is correct. And so and that's an opportunity here again with
[1:41:20] our deeper properties that have
[1:41:21] multi-tenants of three or four or five.
[1:41:23] It's the opportunity to maybe they don't
[1:41:25] do a menu sign in sign. Maybe they
[1:41:27] instead do a directory saying these
[1:41:28] three businesses are back here.
[1:41:30] >> Yeah.
[1:41:30] >> Cool. Fantastic. Great. That's one way
[1:41:32] of solving that issue. Um but again this
[1:41:36] is first cut. Be happy to to get some feedback on this but there is a
[1:41:41] little bit of rhyme and reason to it.
[1:41:44] >> Yeah. No, it it does make sense. I think
[1:41:47] that this is just a observation. The
[1:41:50] picture looks like it's a menu sign. And
[1:41:52] so I'm reading I'm going, "Wait, is that
[1:41:54] the menu sign?" So just make it blanked
[1:41:56] out because it's like there's two
[1:41:57] columns with prices, I think. I'm not
[1:41:58] sure. No, [laughter]
[1:42:00] >> because that's I thought that and then I
[1:42:02] thought, "Oh my gosh, you're going to
[1:42:03] have that that one square that has
[1:42:06] them." And they're like, "Wait a minute.
[1:42:07] We get all our menu signs per per
[1:42:09] restaurant." Well, you do. Yeah.
[1:42:10] >> Over on this other um display case.
[1:42:13] >> Yeah. can blank it out and just put sign
[1:42:15] right in the middle so people know to
[1:42:17] sign. So
[1:42:21] » that's all I had on 31.
[1:42:24] >> Okay.
[1:42:25] 32.
[1:42:28] >> Um
[1:42:30] I I I missed it under the hanging signs.
[1:42:33] Um but it caught me because I just w it
[1:42:35] out and put hanging. We you guys changed
[1:42:37] hanging I think to 8 ft. Yet still we
[1:42:40] still have umbrellas and awnings at
[1:42:42] seven. Yeah,
[1:42:43] >> seven. And Brian mentioned that in his
[1:42:46] also that it's sometimes hard with
[1:42:48] eight, nine foot plates. You got to get
[1:42:50] eight. You can't get a hanging sign and
[1:42:52] is seven. I always thought seven was
[1:42:53] kind of our standard, but you know, a
[1:42:55] door is 68. So, I think that's what we
[1:42:57] >> So, this one I just need to ping our
[1:42:59] building official just to make sure
[1:43:00] we're hitting minimum vertical
[1:43:02] clearance. That's what it comes down to.
[1:43:03] So, um I set it to eight because eight's
[1:43:05] sort of that industry standard. Um, and
[1:43:08] I noticed that we are already low and
[1:43:09] I'm like, "Oh, they should really be
[1:43:11] eight." Cuz again, in my walking
[1:43:14] Copenhagen, I can extend my arm out and
[1:43:16] grab one of those signs really easy. I
[1:43:17] don't want to be able to do that.
[1:43:19] >> Um, but again,
[1:43:21] >> Brian does bring up a point. We do have
[1:43:23] some
[1:43:24] >> lowanging
[1:43:24] >> lower hanging that are there. So,
[1:43:26] >> um, and again, these are for new signs.
[1:43:28] These are things we need to remember.
[1:43:29] So, stuff that's there, you're
[1:43:31] interchanging, it's existing,
[1:43:33] non-conforming, and we leave it. We
[1:43:35] leave it as is. It's it's what we're
[1:43:37] looking for when you're doing a remodel
[1:43:39] or new buildings. Now, now you got to
[1:43:41] come into conformance. So, but still,
[1:43:43] let me check in with the building
[1:43:44] official on that one.
[1:43:47] Can on 32 at the bottom I again you
[1:43:51] explained um you have a non-conforming
[1:43:54] sign and you so under non-conforming
[1:43:58] sign AB
[1:44:00] um two
[1:44:03] this is non-conforming signs are allowed
[1:44:06] if you change your face changes on a
[1:44:09] non-conforming that's okay
[1:44:13] but then under C number one it says
[1:44:15] however
[1:44:16] pro prohibited modifications. If you
[1:44:19] change to another non-conforming sign,
[1:44:21] it's prohibited. Well, you are changing
[1:44:22] it from one non-conforming to another
[1:44:25] one. By changing the face, it's still
[1:44:26] non-conforming.
[1:44:28] We need to be I don't know it maybe
[1:44:31] change to another non-conforming sign,
[1:44:33] comma, except for face changes as noted
[1:44:35] above or except for the stuff noted one,
[1:44:38] two, and three. Does that make sense?
[1:44:40] >> Yeah, change another non-conforming sign
[1:44:42] for the exception of section B. That's
[1:44:44] really what it is because again we don't
[1:44:45] want to change it. You don't want non
[1:44:47] one non-conforming sign and then just
[1:44:48] change to nothing. No. So we don't Yeah.
[1:45:04] Then anything for 33 as we begin to
[1:45:07] >> uh nothing on 33
[1:45:12] for me anyway.
[1:45:18] Um
[1:45:20] can I 34 question?
[1:45:22] >> Yeah, go ahead.
[1:45:23] >> Way at the bottom directory sign. A sign
[1:45:26] less than eight square feet that directs
[1:45:28] pedestrians visitors to tenants.
[1:45:30] >> That's
[1:45:32] >> Yeah, we want that's the definition.
[1:45:33] >> Yeah, we want to strike that. The eight
[1:45:34] square feet just says a sign that
[1:45:36] directs pedest Yeah. number 36 direct
[1:45:39] where it says 18 square feet. Yeah,
[1:45:41] eight square feet. Yeah, got it. Thank
[1:45:43] you.
[1:45:50] on 35. I don't know if it needs to be
[1:45:53] done, but under event definition, maybe
[1:45:56] we call it a special event throughout,
[1:45:58] maybe we ought to call that special
[1:46:00] event and not just event, but that's
[1:46:02] just to be consistent.
[1:46:03] >> So there's two types of events. There's the event that connects to
[1:46:06] limited duration signage, which is
[1:46:07] really what this is pointing to. So
[1:46:09] again, set start date. So whether it's a
[1:46:12] garage sale, open house, etc. Special
[1:46:15] events, a whole different ball game. So
[1:46:17] >> this is the federal holiday stuff and
[1:46:18] elections.
[1:46:20] Yeah. Yeah. So, whereas event is
[1:46:21] actually more so I've put my house on
[1:46:23] the market.
[1:46:24] >> Yeah.
[1:46:24] >> Putting my house on the market is the
[1:46:26] event.
[1:46:26] >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thank you.
[1:46:35] » Can Did we ever address or we can't how
[1:46:39] many flags you can have?
[1:46:41] >> The flag ordinance isn't changing. So,
[1:46:43] that's already been addressed and
[1:46:44] already done. Um we've kind of gone
[1:46:47] through that. We're not touching the
[1:46:48] flag ordinance at this point. Um there
[1:46:51] are a few properties still that are out
[1:46:53] of whack with our ordinance. So we that
[1:46:55] is on our to-do list for 2026 bringing
[1:46:58] in lines
[1:46:59] >> under this definition. A corporation
[1:47:01] flag is fine. That's a
[1:47:03] >> So yeah. So that's going to be stricken
[1:47:05] out. Apologize.
[1:47:05] >> Yeah, because we're going to take some
[1:47:06] [clears throat] of that out, right?
[1:47:07] Yeah. The Guinness one or whatever I put
[1:47:10] out Carlsburg.
[1:47:24] I don't I don't have anything else.
[1:47:26] >> Neither do I.
[1:47:28] >> I'm good, too.
[1:47:29] >> All right. Well, again, thank you uh
[1:47:32] council or commission for the feedback.
[1:47:35] It was is much welcome. And and we're
[1:47:37] beginning to be at the finish line and I know this has been a big push for a
[1:47:41] lot of folks. Um but your feedback means
[1:47:44] a lot. um especially coming from from
[1:47:46] all y'all. So, really appreciate it.
[1:47:50] >> Okay. So, uh there's no action or
[1:47:53] anything we have to take on this?
[1:47:55] >> No, not at this point. Yeah, we'll we'll
[1:47:57] uh recue some of these and uh tee it up
[1:48:00] and then we'll take your comments, do a
[1:48:02] little bit more finessing, and then take
[1:48:04] it to council with a couple of
[1:48:06] considerations based on what
[1:48:07] Commissioner Peterson mentioned.
[1:48:10] Okay, moving on to item seven.
[1:48:14] Planning commissioners comments that
[1:48:16] nothing.
[1:48:16] >> The only thing I have is echoing what
[1:48:18] Jack said earlier and the appreciation
[1:48:20] of staff. We had to get it started
[1:48:22] somewhere. My gosh. You know, I know
[1:48:24] it's been a long time coming, but it's
[1:48:25] hard to get in and I'm looking at the
[1:48:27] old one and the new one. I'm doing this,
[1:48:29] >> you know, for about a day and a half.
[1:48:32] >> Oh my gosh. You know, and I have some of
[1:48:34] it memorized, some of it not. So, I know
[1:48:35] what you guys went through to do that in
[1:48:37] the middle of also other jobs that you
[1:48:39] have. So, appreciate it.
[1:48:41] >> No, and it's it's been good. I mean, I
[1:48:43] know Lisa's does a lot of our signs and
[1:48:45] I think on Friday, uh, we had a question
[1:48:47] from an applicant and I'm like, "Hey,
[1:48:49] use the new graphic [laughter]
[1:48:52] because that explains it to a te exactly
[1:48:54] what we're what we're using." So, um,
[1:48:57] because the the definition didn't
[1:48:58] change, so we went ahead and used the
[1:49:00] new graphic for that.
[1:49:00] >> And following up on that, you're I know
[1:49:02] you mentioned it, design guidelines.
[1:49:04] We're going to that that's going to be
[1:49:06] tough too, isn't it?
[1:49:07] >> It is and uh you know Lisa's
[1:49:09] spearheading that and I have an update
[1:49:11] in regards to that. So,
[1:49:12] >> okay,
[1:49:15] » I would just echo well done folks. I
[1:49:17] know it's a lot of work and a lot of
[1:49:19] detail and and you're taking some risks
[1:49:21] there and I think it's worthwhile. So,
[1:49:23] thank you very much.
[1:49:27] » Okay, item eight, community director
[1:49:30] report.
[1:49:31] >> All right. Thank you. So, uh, city
[1:49:32] council, just as many of you know,
[1:49:34] upheld your decision on 1704 mission.
[1:49:37] So, uh, just a quick update of where
[1:49:39] we're at. The applicant did request a
[1:49:41] lifting of the existing stop work. Um,
[1:49:43] however, we did inform them of the plans
[1:49:45] that needed to be submitted per our
[1:49:46] letter and, uh, and review work that's
[1:49:49] beyond the scope of the permit. So,
[1:49:50] that's where we're at right now. Um,
[1:49:52] we're really looking forward to work
[1:49:53] with the applicant and and get this
[1:49:55] items resolved and continue moving
[1:49:57] forward with uh, fining out construction
[1:49:59] of that uh, project. um because overall
[1:50:03] it it is a good project for the city and
[1:50:05] uh you know we are looking forward to
[1:50:07] that. Um city council will be moving
[1:50:09] forward to adopt the 2025 California
[1:50:12] building code at its November 24th 2025
[1:50:14] meeting. I know that didn't go to you um
[1:50:16] but we are um part of we are at the end
[1:50:19] of our uh tri triannual cycle. Um
[1:50:22] there's one sort of caveat to that is
[1:50:24] our our residential um there was a new
[1:50:26] state law uh passed as a part of the
[1:50:28] budget that freezes uh residential
[1:50:30] building code updates. So this will be
[1:50:32] the last one of those that you'll see
[1:50:33] for the next six years. So um it kind of
[1:50:36] gives a lot more certainty moving
[1:50:37] forward. Um so which is great. Um we
[1:50:41] will be having a December meeting. I
[1:50:42] know there was some questions of that
[1:50:44] and that is to discuss short-term
[1:50:45] rentals. So um that's we're currently at
[1:50:48] the finish line on that one. um which is
[1:50:52] fantastic. Um that is now in for review
[1:50:54] at the city attorney's office. The city
[1:50:55] attorney, I know Taylor's looking at it.
[1:50:57] Um but hopefully we'll get that into
[1:50:59] ordinance format. It's based on the
[1:51:01] recommendations of just limiting our uh
[1:51:03] short terminals into the village only
[1:51:05] and then carving out if you had an exist
[1:51:07] if you have a R3 um and you have an
[1:51:10] existing permit um you'll be able to
[1:51:12] apply for one with some caveats and
[1:51:14] exceptions. But again, that'll be coming
[1:51:16] to you for recommendation and we'll have
[1:51:18] that in ordinance format. Um, and as a
[1:51:20] part of that, we're actually going to
[1:51:21] beginning our begin our enforcement of
[1:51:23] our ordinance since there's no path
[1:51:25] forward at this point for folks that are
[1:51:27] operating short-term rentals outside of
[1:51:29] the village. So, um, letters will be
[1:51:31] going out at the end u by midmon
[1:51:33] informing them that they need to um
[1:51:36] cease uh their their operations.
[1:51:39] Um, speaking of uh we are moving along
[1:51:42] with the administrative draft, the
[1:51:43] design handbook. Um, so we're actually
[1:51:45] hoping for um either a December or
[1:51:48] January to bringing that to the DRC very
[1:51:51] similar to what we did here is we'll
[1:51:52] bring it to DRC first. Um, get some sort
[1:51:55] of feedback, re re-edit, reit it down
[1:51:58] and then bring it to you for that sort
[1:52:00] of second check-in on feedback and then
[1:52:02] bring it to city council and then we'll
[1:52:04] re-reverse it out back to everybody. Um,
[1:52:08] so um, Lisa's been uh doing that and
[1:52:11] she's I'm the one now that's behind. But
[1:52:13] I'm sorry, Lisa, that I need to review
[1:52:14] that. Um, but we are looking to get that
[1:52:17] done, uh, here at the latter end of this
[1:52:19] year and at the beginning of next year.
[1:52:20] And then, um, speaking of the sign
[1:52:22] ordinance, it either returned either in
[1:52:24] January, uh, to this body or in
[1:52:27] February. So, we don't know quite yet
[1:52:28] where we're going to land with the city
[1:52:30] council. U, uh, but after, uh, we get
[1:52:32] input from the council, um, we'll, this
[1:52:34] will come back to you. And it'll
[1:52:36] actually come in two forms. One is the
[1:52:38] ordinance format, but also a sign
[1:52:40] handbook. So, we'll be working. So,
[1:52:42] whatever comes out from the city
[1:52:44] council, that's what we'll put into the
[1:52:46] handbook, which will be a much more
[1:52:48] reader friendly, easier to use,
[1:52:50] incorporate some of the graphics that
[1:52:52] we're already doing. And so, that way we
[1:52:54] it's it's a finished product that
[1:52:56] everyone gets to see, and then uh
[1:52:58] everyone now starts playing on the same
[1:52:59] rules. Um, and then finally, we we uh
[1:53:03] bless uh Cole Phillips in our public
[1:53:05] works department. Um, he recovered uh
[1:53:08] two goats that were roaming the street.
[1:53:10] So if you are missing any goats, they
[1:53:12] are at the animal shelter in Santa
[1:53:14] Maria. Um
[1:53:16] so
[1:53:17] >> goats eating eating vegetation.
[1:53:19] [laughter]
[1:53:20] >> Wish we could
[1:53:22] >> um we don't know where they came from.
[1:53:23] So they were just roaming the streets.
[1:53:25] So uh
[1:53:26] >> had some goats eating stuff on the
[1:53:28] [laughter] field over there. So
[1:53:30] >> they're little goats. They're little
[1:53:31] goats. So they're little guys. So, if
[1:53:34] you're missing any goats and you're
[1:53:36] watching, go call animal services and
[1:53:38] hopefully we'll we'll re reunite you
[1:53:40] with your goats.
[1:53:42] >> Can I ask you two questions? The the
[1:53:46] until the design review handbook gets
[1:53:48] changed. This is going to happen sooner
[1:53:51] than that. I mean, the design review
[1:53:53] handbook is still the
[1:53:57] >> Are you talking the design guidelines?
[1:53:58] >> Yes, the guidelines. I'm sorry.
[1:54:00] >> Yes, that's in place.
[1:54:01] >> That is very much in place. that
[1:54:03] actually has to go through a repeal. Um,
[1:54:05] so essentially what will end up
[1:54:06] happening is once we dial in the
[1:54:07] handbook, we come to this the DRC for
[1:54:10] recommendation, the planning
[1:54:11] commissioner recommendation, and the
[1:54:13] city council will adopt and then repeal
[1:54:17] the old guidelines.
[1:54:18] >> The old one stays in place until
[1:54:20] >> correct. Yeah. So,
[1:54:22] >> and the last question,
[1:54:25] um, the the stop work order on on the
[1:54:27] St. George property, I don't even know
[1:54:29] the address, 1704. Was that because of
[1:54:32] the design or was that because of some
[1:54:34] other structural things?
[1:54:37] >> So in the interior there's a substantial
[1:54:39] amount of work that deviated from the
[1:54:40] approved permit in the interior in terms
[1:54:42] of the floor plan. Um also on the
[1:54:44] exterior flat work it it deviated
[1:54:46] particularly when it comes to storm
[1:54:48] water drainage. So what a lot of people
[1:54:50] don't understand is storm water drainage
[1:54:52] is heavily integrated into the amount of
[1:54:53] what's called impervious surface. And so
[1:54:56] the minute you start adding impervious
[1:54:57] surface that really changes the calculus
[1:55:00] of your drainage and it may trip you
[1:55:02] into doing additional um uh le features
[1:55:06] or other sort of underground work that
[1:55:09] needs to get done to retain the storm
[1:55:11] water. So it's actually a bigger deal
[1:55:13] than meets the eye. Um, so that was
[1:55:15] mainly the main trip up was the ADA, the the other storm water and the other
[1:55:21] sort of interior work where you can't,
[1:55:24] you know, run an inspection and then the
[1:55:25] inspection essentially becomes a
[1:55:26] correction of either demo what you're
[1:55:28] doing and put it back to what it's
[1:55:29] supposed to be or go revise your plans
[1:55:32] and tell us what it actually is and
[1:55:35] we'll inspect for what it actually is.
[1:55:37] So that that's where we're at.
[1:55:38] >> That's where it's at.
[1:55:39] >> That is where it's at.
[1:55:40] >> Okay.
[1:55:44] I do have a question related to that
[1:55:46] project. Um because the project is
[1:55:49] scaled um are is the developer still
[1:55:53] having to meet uh building codes, door
[1:55:56] heights and such.
[1:55:58] >> So a lot of folks uh there were
[1:56:00] questions about the door heights. Um
[1:56:02] there are actually two doors. People
[1:56:04] don't realize that there's the main
[1:56:06] entry door which is actually to code
[1:56:09] >> usually in the back where you can't see
[1:56:11] it. Yeah. And so that that's the and
[1:56:14] that's part of the issue with the floor
[1:56:15] plan is those doors were never called
[1:56:17] out whether they were ingress egress.
[1:56:20] And so these these technically can't be
[1:56:22] ingress egress doors. So they got to
[1:56:24] figure that out. And and so um you know
[1:56:28] but there was that comment of well
[1:56:30] that's not even up to code. No it is.
[1:56:33] There's just the main entrance is on the
[1:56:34] side that is actually to code and done
[1:56:37] per plan. Glad to hear that. Yeah.
[1:56:42] Okay. Nothing else.
[1:56:45] Okay. We're adjourned at 854.
[1:56:52] » 7:54.