[This transcript was generated automatically from audio using AI and hasn't been reviewed by a person -- it can contain mistakes, including plausible-sounding sentences that were never actually said. Treat it as a starting point, not a verbatim record.]

[9:13] Okay, we had our finger on the calls. That's right, right? That's weird. That's it. Our hands are going in the same place.
[9:24] Is this turned off?
[9:31] Okay.
[9:36] Okay, it is a 305 or 303. I will call this work session on August 25th, 2026 to order. Our mayor will be here, momentarily. And so, but we'll go ahead and get started.
[9:49] and we'll start with the pledge of allegiance.
[10:15] Jessica, are you taking over for talent managers comments today?
[10:18] I am.
[10:22] Good afternoon.
[10:25] Please welcome you to our first council work session in the council chambers.
[10:30] So welcome to town hall.
[10:32] We have two items on your action section of your agenda today.
[10:37] The first one is to repeal the red corner social district, the ABC commission
[10:43] informed the owner of Reds Corner that that was actually not necessary in order to get their
[10:51] licensing. So Attorney Macarley has recommended that we repeal the social district that you
[10:57] approved back in July. Resolution 1160 is a very, very limited power of attorney for the town clerk
[11:06] work in order to request duplicate replacement titles for town and vehicles and equipment
[11:13] when we may have misplaced those and are selling those items.
[11:19] For our Council updates and discussion section of the agenda, we have three items today.
[11:26] We have Mr. Jeff Darling and he is the CEO of the YMCA of the Santils and then we have Mr.
[11:36] Bruce Griffin, who is from the North Carolina Alliance of YMCA, they will be discussing
[11:42] the property that we transferred to them and the project to construct a YMCA in Southern
[11:51] Pines. Director B. J. Grief will give us an update from the Planning Department and then
[11:57] the last item on the agenda is the Council Code of Ethics, which was requested by Mayor
[12:04] climate and then you'll have your council roundtable. Thank you. Assistant Major Roth. Any questions for Jessica?
[12:14] All right. Seeing none we'll move to our action items and is there a motion for ordinance 30208 or
[12:21] additional questions?
[12:27] We just have to move to approve that ordinance correct. Or do we just do it?
[12:31] You are repeal on the previous, and the previous one is ordinance number 3208.
[12:40] Okay.
[12:41] So I'll make a motion that we read.
[12:42] I'm sorry, the previous one is 30207.
[12:45] 30207.
[12:46] 38 is the repeal of 30207.
[12:49] Okay.
[12:49] I make a motion that we repeal ordinance 30207 and replace it with ordinance 30208.
[13:01] There's a motion in the second. All in favor?
[13:04] Aye.
[13:05] Opposed?
[13:06] Motion carries.
[13:09] Is there any additional discussion or motion?
[13:12] That's the resolution 1160.
[13:14] No, I think it's a great idea.
[13:18] So make a motion that we adopt resolution number 116,
[13:23] a requesting limited power of attorney to give
[13:25] into the town court for the purpose of requesting duplicate
[13:27] or replacement titles for Town and Equipment.
[13:32] Second.
[13:33] Motion.
[13:34] Second. All those in favor?
[13:36] Aye.
[13:36] Opposed?
[13:38] I motion carries as well.
[13:39] Thank you guys very much.
[13:41] All right.
[13:41] We'll move to part five.
[13:43] Updates and discussions with Jeff and Bruce.
[13:46] Was Town staff going to be part of this?
[13:48] Or just just the folks in the YMCA?
[13:53] Just you guys.
[13:53] Okay.
[13:54] Thank you.
[13:55] Thank you, and thanks for giving us a little bit of time today.
[13:59] I know that you are already aware that you have some great concerns
[14:05] over and up from that one, you've written into the agreement with the land of Triad Science
[14:12] and had to do with having a preliminary science and two of the other items
[14:19] that you can be done by the English September.
[14:22] And I met with Reagan and let him know we are not going
[14:28] to hit that deadline, we might have heard
[14:31] that he could have not even called us right now.
[14:33] But I did want to mention a couple of things
[14:35] in my interview shoot to Bill Murray to be your friend.
[14:41] But a couple of bags for years, and I recognize a couple
[14:47] faces that were in the meeting the one time that I was here. I came on the very
[14:51] tail end of the agreement in order to be decided and I got to show up for the
[14:59] I'm very glad you're here.
[15:00] That's meeting, right before everything comes to normal. What I didn't know at that time was that my other duties in
[15:07] federal and county and county counties were going to pretty much take all of my time to not forget the rules. And so it set us back considerably with
[15:17] project here also, learning that we miss some very significant steps required to be successful
[15:26] at bringing the audience to the team. And so we have now reached out to the experts and asked
[15:34] Bruce Griffin to step in as a consultant and someone who has been very successful at bringing
[15:41] one in two days of community. And so I'm going to have to turn over the word is
[15:46] you'll be able to cover some of those stuff also. And I'm going to give you one second
[15:52] to plug in. It's a lot of pressure doing tech in front of us. Bear with me.
[16:06] I did rehearse
[16:07] ahead of time. Congratulations on your new facility here. This is really impressive. And
[16:17] And it looks like people are whispering when they're talking.
[16:19] And I'm trying to see who's mouth is moving because your mics are so powerful.
[16:22] And I'm a loud person, so I'm going to apologize ahead of time.
[16:27] In your area there, I have a packet of information, so I have a copy of our slide deck, I have
[16:35] a copy of a detailed kind of summary timeline, and then we have a community forum document
[16:41] that I want to share with you later.
[16:42] So thank you council for having this. My name is Bruce Griffin. I'm a consultant with the North Carolina Alliance of YMCA's. We support 26 associations from Wilmington to Raleigh, to Charlotte, to Asheville, to Bertie County, Stanley County,
[17:02] Cumberland, Hornet, and Moore County and everything in between.
[17:06] I'm retired. I'm still working full-time so I really wasn't that good at it.
[17:10] But retired from a career of sort of wise really all over the country.
[17:15] I'm from Raleigh. Originally I'm housed in Nightdale right now.
[17:20] We are a YJ household. So little trivia. My wife is the National Director for
[17:27] sports for the YMCA of the USA. So she gets the first floor suite though I think her titles far
[17:32] more important to mine is. So most recently I was the CEO in Goldsboro, North Carolina and then
[17:40] have moved back to Raleigh. So a little bit of background there.
[17:46] I want to add a little bit more
[17:48] to Jeff's story. When I first came into this role I've known Rick Halp who was Jeff's predecessor
[17:55] for a long time. It's very innovative, creative, out of the box. He's a wonderful at negotiating and I think it is amazing what he and the town work through on the eight acre piece of property on Oregon 10 and Henry.
[18:13] Jeff did come in, his Fayetteville wife, he came in two years, removed from COVID.
[18:18] He comes in, his Fayetteville wife had catastrophic water damage to the electrical system of
[18:24] their pool, and they had to gut the entire system.
[18:28] He had to shut his wife down for almost a year, so his cash flow was challenged.
[18:37] He had a property in Hope Mills, the lease was not a good lease, and they walked away from
[18:41] the lease so they left their hoop mills that only left them with their camera and location
[18:45] which is really pretty amazing the storefront in Celebi and then he has this property in
[18:51] southern pines tiktok tiktok that the clock is ticking for him to try to figure out what
[18:57] to do. He knows nobody in any of the counties he has really nobody to introduce him people
[19:04] so he's knocking on doors trying to figure it out. Rick has gone and finally raved with
[19:11] Wave to White Flag and came to you and I think Senna note to the town manager and say we just can't,
[19:18] we can't follow through. And there was some outpouring from the community. He had not really felt that
[19:24] before one because he hadn't really engaged, been able to because he just didn't know.
[19:28] the folks from West Southern Pines, they're kind of a passionate group I found.
[19:36] So they came out, we met with them, and started the process.
[19:40] A lot of my working supporting-wise is supporting new communities, big and small, that won't
[19:47] wise.
[19:48] I'm kind of a matchmaker, wise, the, why you say, charters, local-wise is independent, they
[19:55] They've not chartered a new one in the last five years.
[19:58] That's an independent.
[20:00] We are going to get Jacksonville.
[20:02] If you can imagine, Oneslow County,
[20:04] with almost 300,000 in their county,
[20:06] we're finally getting them approved for independent charter.
[20:09] But why is it exists under the umbrella of an existing why?
[20:13] So that's why discussions about a way in Southern Pines
[20:16] would fall under the Wayne State of the San Hills.
[20:19] Does that make sense?
[20:21] Okay.
[20:22] So a couple of things I'd like to kind of walk through.
[20:24] Let me make sure I hit all those highlights first great so the project was paused and unfortunately
[20:35] and I've been kind of following along were grateful for local media that supports goodness
[20:42] in the community and so I think might have somebody here from the paper which is great.
[20:48] Unfortunately I think the message that came across is that the why just could not fundraise they
[20:53] They cannot raise the money.
[20:55] And it really raised the question, I asked Jeff, I said, well, what are you raising the
[20:59] money for?
[21:00] It's kind of hard to go out and raise money when you really don't know what you need,
[21:05] what you're building.
[21:06] Is it all the right things you really probably need to vet that.
[21:11] So my comment here was to make sure there's really good validation.
[21:15] So what's not about funding capacity?
[21:16] That's way down the road before you start raising money.
[21:20] He just didn't really have time to communicate with the community, learn the site, learn
[21:27] the competitive opportunities, what are the gaps in that area of programming?
[21:34] Why is typically going to try to address gaps?
[21:37] They don't come in as a gorilla and try to just take over all areas and they have five primary
[21:43] areas that why serve.
[21:44] They serve health and wellness fitness.
[21:47] most folks when you think of a why would you think of women gym or some
[21:54] by the village people right I mean to be honest so so aquatics child care
[22:01] both before and after school summer camp senior programming and sports those
[22:09] are normally the five areas if you're in a city that's got a strong sports
[22:13] program. Why try to duplicate? But maybe sports is offered in the fall. There's nothing in the
[22:19] spring for kids. Well, then let's find those gaps. That's what wise typically do. The more gaps,
[22:24] the better in terms of programming. So the key questions are, what's the role and is it,
[22:30] is it Southern Pines or is it the full county located in Southern Pines? What unmet community needs
[22:38] and service gaps exist. That's the question you're looking for.
[22:42] And then once you have that, you can decide what your facility looks like,
[22:46] what programs, partnerships,
[22:47] because it's one thing to build a Y. It's another thing to sustain a Y.
[22:52] And the worst thing to do in YUSA,
[22:55] they take great pride in their brand.
[22:59] They don't want to bring a Y into the community,
[23:01] just to take it back out.
[23:03] So if they're coming, they're knowing that it's a long term investment.
[23:07] And please, if there are any questions or anything, stop me as we go.
[23:11] I did want to say Councilwoman Peterson and I spoke at the beginning.
[23:16] Little did we know, I come from a competitive swimming background, coach, we were together.
[23:23] She was just a little, little bit ahead of me on some things, but I was great to catch
[23:28] up and talk about that.
[23:29] I did want to acknowledge that.
[23:30] So what would the YFCA be raising money for?
[23:32] or any capital campaign has to really support
[23:36] an evidence-based need in solution, not just some concept.
[23:42] Everybody just wants a why.
[23:44] But what are the components of that why
[23:46] that you would really want?
[23:47] Key questions for us.
[23:49] What programs and services will the why provide?
[23:51] And are they needed?
[23:53] How does the Southern Pines property fit the long term
[23:57] county-wide vision?
[23:58] and what measurable community outcomes will result from the investment.
[24:04] It's a very intentional thought process.
[24:08] Let's talk about the validation first.
[24:11] It's one defining, is this why a county-wide-wide or is it a community-wide?
[24:17] A county-wide-wide is probably going to have to be a bigger footprint than a community-wide.
[24:24] So there's something to think about in terms of the piece of property and I think that shows here at the top
[24:30] Southern Pines was a four Southern Pines chef has done a marketing study
[24:35] Several years ago with a company. We support called four square
[24:39] Research and that was four Southern Pines or what was the reach for that?
[24:48] Okay, it's pretty much covers most of the camp. Is that right? Would that be accurate?
[24:53] very favorably, by the way, for a potential membership-based facility.
[24:57] And the best YMCA model is going to be a membership-based facility.
[25:01] In Northmore County, he's going to be farther away than 12 minutes.
[25:04] So it's so-is Carpage, so if you are interested in actually knowing the area.
[25:09] That's good.
[25:10] That's helpful.
[25:11] That's not going to cover more counties.
[25:13] Okay.
[25:13] Helpful.
[25:15] So, testing capital feasibility, membership revenue staffing is sustainable, validating
[25:21] the property site, can it be built on from an expansion standpoint, validate what the
[25:28] community needs may be, what are the demographics, are there underserved groups because the
[25:34] Y will protect our underserved because the Y wants to ensure that no one's turned away
[25:39] for an inability to pay.
[25:41] So as a nonprofit, we have a full robust financial assistance program, most of those generated
[25:48] contributed from contributions out of the community, all the money comes from the community.
[25:53] And anytime wise really come to communities, Jeff's not going to, he doesn't have this
[25:58] treasure chest that he's going to bring in and build a wire.
[26:02] Why is your built from within the communities?
[26:05] He has an expertise of facilitating a lot of that process, certainly raising money, maybe
[26:13] not so much for capital, but there are a lot of funders, especially for underserved communities
[26:18] that love Eastern North Carolina so we know we have those relationships for you and then finally what's
[26:26] the community support we want to hear from the community we do have a community forum the schedule
[26:32] and we're talking about that more in just a second. Now I mentioned that I come from a competitive
[26:39] swimming coaching background I coached swimming professionally for 10 years with the Wayne G
[26:44] of the triangle in Raleigh. We're pretty good.
[26:49] So I have a passion for competitive swimming.
[26:53] I'm just, I'm just really worried. I love them.
[26:55] Three national championships. That's pretty good.
[26:57] We said four kids to the Olympics. That's pretty good.
[27:00] Two, one gold. That's pretty good.
[27:04] So the one thing I do observe in more county is that aside from health first,
[27:10] First, you do not have really a large enough aquatic center in the county.
[27:17] Your swim teams, I suspect I don't know this, are struggling to find pool time.
[27:23] Your club teams may be doing the same.
[27:28] And where you are located, I think there's a new, I haven't seen it, but a new facility in
[27:34] HOPE counties, right?
[27:35] Does somebody tell me that?
[27:36] Okay, I've not seen it.
[27:37] I was, I was blessed in Goldsboro.
[27:42] Goldsboro had the largest YMCA facility in the state,
[27:49] larger than East Carolina, larger than UNC Wilmington,
[27:53] indoor 50 meaters, separate 25-yard pool,
[27:55] probably one of the largest in the region.
[27:57] And it worked for us cause we had a visionary in 1984
[28:01] before to put that in, the benefit for us is we were able to host regional competitions,
[28:07] which brought in revenue, not only to the Y, but to our local community.
[28:11] They stayed in our hotels, they ate at our restaurants, they shopped at our shops.
[28:16] So to me, just high level at this phase, that seems to be something that is missing in your
[28:24] community.
[28:25] There's so much can be done with that.
[28:26] it would need to be multi-pools. We would recommend a competitive pool, warm water pool,
[28:33] that you could do swim instruction, senior classes, whatever it may be. So just something I would
[28:39] probably think would be important. Any questions about that? Okay.
[28:49] So we have a community forum scheduled
[28:53] for October 13th at the Southern Pines Landon housing trust in their auditorium.
[29:00] This is a great opportunity.
[29:02] This is really not intended to see if the community is interested in a Y.
[29:06] We assume that the answer would be yes.
[29:08] If we put that out to the community, I think we get high level of votes.
[29:12] But what we want to know are community leaders interested in it.
[29:17] Is there potential partnership with the school district?
[29:20] Is there potential partnership with the hospital?
[29:21] are municipalities behind it.
[29:25] So I'm working with Jacksonville right now
[29:27] which is renovating a church and building
[29:30] a $12 million aquatic center fully funded.
[29:34] Through gifts from the different partners within.
[29:39] So now they have a place that the first indoor pool ever
[29:42] in Oslo County, which is shocking to imagine.
[29:48] So we'll be discussing in that group.
[29:50] I hope the turnout is high. If 10 people showed up, I think that's going to be a great indication
[29:55] of Jeff that we're probably not interested in a white and so the price.
[30:00] We challenge you and others in the community to try to get after that. It's a 90 minute session. It'll be facilitated by myself. We won't fix to learn what a YMCA really is. So much more than swimming gym. One thing you may not know that Jeff is doing in Lillington. Jeff feeds 500 families a week with a seven day meal box at a church drive through in Lillington.
[30:27] He started that site and they had 37 boxes given away last summer.
[30:33] He now does that.
[30:34] That's fully reimbursable through a state program called the Summer Food Service program.
[30:40] And I would suspect if I pulled up more county statistics, you are accessing less than 10%
[30:47] of what's available to more county under summer feeding opportunities.
[30:51] So the opportunities here in Southern Pines, whether it certainly could be down by the
[30:57] Landon Housing Trust facility, but their pockets around the community, he goes there.
[31:03] They don't have to come to him.
[31:05] So what an opportunity.
[31:06] No cost to you, fully reimbursable from the state for him, but certainly one of the things
[31:11] that we look for to partner along with the why.
[31:14] So what is the why?
[31:15] What are the unmet needs?
[31:17] What's great about Southern Pines?
[31:20] because he is mostly in Cumberland County.
[31:23] He has a white in Harnet County,
[31:25] but now let's convince Jeff and his team
[31:27] that we think more County's great
[31:29] and deserves a while as well.
[31:31] And this is why.
[31:32] And then what partnerships can be enhanced
[31:37] as part of that?
[31:39] So this is timeline.
[31:41] We want to be very clear on what we want to provide for you
[31:46] starting with our session today.
[31:48] We've done some initial market and site assessments.
[31:51] We've got some stakeholder engagement.
[31:53] We've already done.
[31:55] I've met with some folks from West Southern Pines.
[31:57] Ms. Dot, I think is the key person I've met there.
[32:02] She is passionate.
[32:06] And Ms. As you was there as well.
[32:10] The community forum I have on their October 13th.
[32:14] Once we learn from there, we will know kind of where the gaps are.
[32:17] I've seen the site. We'll assess the site. It's eight acres is great, but it's probably
[32:25] going to have to be thin and hot, especially if you consider something like that aquatic
[32:33] center, because you're going to need a lot of parking space there.
[32:38] I'm sorry. I hate to interrupt you. We try not to interrupt people when they make their
[32:42] presentation. That time for that October 13th meeting is a strange time. Yeah.
[32:48] Is morning. Yeah. Why did you schedule it for that? Most of the folks that we
[32:52] want to be there are not community members. They are staff. They are county staff,
[32:59] city staff, hospital staff, school staff, and they're working during that time.
[33:04] And so we see that as part of their job would be to step out and be able to
[33:09] have something to do that day.
[33:11] I suspect we'd have less turnout if it was optional at night.
[33:15] We'd have great community leaders,
[33:16] but who can really help put that thought together?
[33:20] So when I've done this for other communities,
[33:22] it's well represented, but we consider this a,
[33:25] it's not a heavy lift, but it's a working session,
[33:28] and everybody we would like to be there.
[33:31] They're employed to support growth and impact
[33:34] in their community.
[33:36] That's the target audience.
[33:40] We'll come back in late January if you allow us to speak to your next work session to kind of give you an overview of what we've discovered and then Jeff will make that decision by February 9th. That'll be the six-month period as to whether or not we feel like we want to set another six months to explore if it could work or he may choose to release it back that it's just not a viable fit right now.
[34:08] Okay, and that's kind of the frame.
[34:12] Now, in your packet, now put a couple on the back.
[34:16] We've already done a flyer for the community session.
[34:19] It's fancy dancing, it's got a QR code.
[34:22] All you got to do is scan a QR code, you can register.
[34:26] For we won't folks to register,
[34:27] we don't just want it to be, we want to know who's there.
[34:30] There'll be a combination of working together,
[34:34] group, learning, it will not be a sit and get activity.
[34:37] We're here to learn and to really think about the impact that a wife at that location or in Southern Pines would make and is that viable for Jeff and his team to pursue.
[34:50] So that's in your pack as well.
[34:52] I think that may be it.
[34:57] Any questions?
[34:59] My favorite slide here. You've done this, right?
[35:02] Now remember, when you do the C, it's this way.
[35:06] It's not this way.
[35:08] All right, this is not a C, this is a backwards C.
[35:12] All right, I'm full service consultant.
[35:15] Any questions for me?
[35:17] I had some questions.
[35:17] Yes, sir.
[35:20] So I numb this, I guess, the meeting, unfortunately,
[35:22] when you all came, like last month, I think, to update.
[35:25] So I was of the impression all this had already happened,
[35:27] based on what we were told, the meeting's
[35:29] part of two plus years ago. So no community assessments then done. I remember sitting here hearing
[35:35] everything you said, thinking it's long happened. Yeah, but it hasn't. Did you hear that from Jeff
[35:39] or from both members just meetings here? Well, there was a four-square assessment that was done. The
[35:45] challenge for Jeff is he could not accelerate the project because he was just one person. He just
[35:51] he was drowning. And so he finally just put the white flag up. So it's kind of started from scratch right
[35:56] right now. Not fully from scratch, but starting more at the beginning, we've done some initial
[36:01] assessments, we've had some conversations, we've met with some of the folks from West
[36:05] Southern Pine, so I think we're starting to get a good feel. The community forum will
[36:10] be a big help to kind of help define some of that, and then we can kind of move from there.
[36:16] So I wouldn't say it's from the beginning, but it's early, but a six-month timeline is
[36:21] really compact, but that's why we wanted to hold ourselves accountable and show you exactly
[36:26] what we're going to be doing.
[36:27] And then my other question,
[36:29] Mark's maybe turning the carly can fill in.
[36:32] So we have a deed on record.
[36:33] It's already been recorded with these timelines built in.
[36:36] So what legally would we need to do
[36:38] should a deadline get extended because there is a,
[36:41] it's on record with these deadlines with the registered deeds.
[36:44] We're going to have to do a new deed or an amendment to that.
[36:49] Well, to put something on record.
[36:56] I've got two quick questions, number one, I'm huge favor this, I'm in supported, I think
[37:01] it's great.
[37:05] I do think we're kind of starting back, not maybe zero, but we're going back a little
[37:10] bit.
[37:12] And one of the things I just worry about is obviously you're scaling the why to the population
[37:20] density.
[37:21] And I talked with one of our constituents, and it's a cradle grave operation.
[37:27] And we talked about eight acres and realistically the size of the installation or the why would
[37:35] be built to support what we believe or what your assessments would believe could be handled
[37:41] by our populations.
[37:42] That is a true statement because you talked about the 12 mile ring and so that got me thinking
[37:47] when Ms. Peterson said, you know, Northmore, it's a 35-minute drive, Carthage is 26, is that
[37:55] one of the things that goes into your, I guess, long question short. Is that one of
[37:59] the things that goes into this next set of assessments in the six months? Do we have
[38:03] the population base? I think there are two pieces. I think there is the size of the property and
[38:09] what could fit on it. Right. Secondly, what are the competing entities around that
[38:15] property? Are there any fitness centers around it? Is there aquatics around it? Is
[38:20] there child care? There's a boys and girls club around it? Is there
[38:24] how close is the senior center, so is there cannibalizing potential because the wide would
[38:30] have to drive 50, the economic engine for wisest membership. That's how they, that's 50% of
[38:36] their budgets. Child care is normally 25%, all the other program is 25%. So, and we have seen
[38:44] low cost for profit, like a planet fitness, those type things. They go for volume, if all the
[38:52] the people that signed up went, they would be crippled,
[38:54] but it's a brilliant strategy, really,
[38:56] because it's only $10 a month.
[38:57] So if I skip this, I'm not gonna cancel,
[38:59] cause it's only $10 a month.
[39:02] So it would be more, but we also need to look at the demographic
[39:06] of the area, what would be the price point,
[39:08] and that was very favorable
[39:10] through the four-square report
[39:11] that was done for the community.
[39:13] So that's not spooking us off, really.
[39:14] And so my last question.
[39:15] So we think this next six month extension on the timeline,
[39:19] that may not be the right term.
[39:20] I'm trying to be very positive.
[39:21] this next six months will give you those answers yes that because I mean it's it's a
[39:28] great facility when they're up and running and serving the community so I
[39:32] appreciate your time yeah thank you good questions good questions excited for
[39:36] the journey so my first question was going to be well first of all let's talk
[39:40] about one thing we can agree on Miss Dot is the key person there you go and I
[39:46] quote you on that so but my first question I was gonna ask was gonna be the same
[39:51] one that Dr. Gray asked about the time which you've explained. I'm a little bit concerned
[39:57] as far as an attempt to have community educated or involved. And my big point is going
[40:04] to be that I'm looking at the document signed by the town clerk in 2023, three years ago
[40:14] that says by September 30th of 2026, there will be the YMCA of Sandhills will fund and construct
[40:24] a minimum 45,000 square foot recreation facility to include at minimum an indoor pool in
[40:31] addition to any parking, landscaping and necessary public infrastructure and accordance
[40:36] with general plans, which one would have, and architecture to be submitted to the town
[40:41] and ultimately approved via the appropriate town permitting authorities that would be
[40:46] our planning department.
[40:47] Initial site plan and architectural review application will be submitted no later than
[40:52] September 30th, 2026, which as you well know is about a month away.
[40:59] And I'm assuming that there have not been any architectural proposals.
[41:04] I'm not correct on that.
[41:05] There have not been any architectural proposals.
[41:06] You said you have a lot of potential funders.
[41:09] Have any of those people been in that position?
[41:10] Well, no, I think most of our fundings are on the program side.
[41:13] There's been no capital feasibility dive.
[41:15] I think.
[41:16] It's been no capital feasibility.
[41:17] For me, in most communities, you lead with programming.
[41:20] You do not.
[41:21] I think what Rick negotiated at a $20 million price tag, which is within indoor pool would be
[41:29] very difficult.
[41:30] I understand.
[41:30] To do here.
[41:31] So there's not been any funding raised.
[41:33] Correct.
[41:33] And there's no architectural proposal made and we don't know what programs would be included
[41:37] at this point.
[41:38] Yes.
[41:38] And you say we need an intentional thought process, we don't have that and we have not validated the proposed side.
[41:45] Is that all all those things are true and you've had three years to do that.
[41:49] And your comment regarding not doing that is quote, he didn't have time.
[41:56] Well, from a time standpoint, I think he's new.
[41:59] He inherited the project.
[42:02] He had to deal primarily with keeping the organization afloat, and when he closed down
[42:06] two facilities, that he was not going to be able to invest the resources into supporting
[42:12] a whole nother capital project that had not been vetted at all yet.
[42:16] He had to make that decision.
[42:19] So who entered this agreement with the town?
[42:23] I think Rick, how the prior executive director would have been the person that entered into
[42:28] it.
[42:28] I was aware of it.
[42:29] we were talking about he we were talking about it. I was new into the role probably 2022
[42:34] at that point. So we were aware but he was really trying to accelerate it before he retired.
[42:40] It was big for him to get the land. That was his main thing. I got to get the land. I got to get
[42:43] the land but there was no it was not a good thing. Had it and then literally set on it for three.
[42:48] We don't disagree but because I remember a discussion he told us like I can't fund raise until I get
[42:54] the dirt, which is why we did that. That's why my question to you earlier,
[42:57] I was similar to Councilman Peterson, surprised at how little has happened since
[43:02] these discussions the years ago. We do not disagree on that. And I have a long
[43:08] history going back in my brain. I started swimming at the Y in Rowling on Hills
[43:14] Worst Street in fifth grade. So I understand the importance of a Y and I
[43:19] I understand, and again, I will attest to this fact until the cows come home, Miss Dot is the key person.
[43:27] And I know that she's done a lot of driving the train and sparking the re-interest,
[43:33] but to say that I am frustrated and disappointed in the fact that this is the first time
[43:40] you'll have come back to us and said, oh, by the way, to reinforce what Mr. Pate says,
[43:46] I love the idea of a why, but by the way, we've been setting on this for three years.
[43:52] That's really not a good look.
[43:54] Well, I came into this later, but what I will say for Jeff is he gave it back.
[44:00] He said, here's the white flag we're done.
[44:04] And it was outreach from the community to say there's got to be it.
[44:08] Can we have another swing at it?
[44:09] Right.
[44:10] So we're just asking for another swing at it.
[44:11] you may say no, and then they will explore other opportunities throughout
[44:15] more county to see if there's more interest. If you were given a six-month swing
[44:21] in six months, what would you deliver to us? Exactly what's in there. We will
[44:26] embedded that basically is whether you want to take on the property or you want to release
[44:31] the property. And then we will schedule out it's not going to be another six months and you're
[44:35] going to be able to cut the ribbon. It's going to take some time at that point. So at that point,
[44:40] If we know that he's able, we feel like their support, he will have done some preliminary
[44:46] but not heavy lifting on capital funders at that point.
[44:50] It's just whether or not the site fits program capacities and gaps are met.
[44:55] Then we lay out what the timeline is to actually start the capital phase.
[45:00] Explore timelines for all the other more detail to actually get you bill. So you're going to assess whether or not a site that we handed over three years ago is even appropriate to move forward with in the next six months. So it's another six month with basically nothing happening except for an assessment about whether or not you would even accept the property to move forward.
[45:27] Would that be accurate?
[45:31] Well, in terms of that site, the goal is to at least start generating some programs
[45:37] probably in West Southern Pines, so we can establish a presence of Wayne State Programming.
[45:43] So that is our intent to explore partnership with West Southern Pines.
[45:48] That'll be some of the discovery items there.
[45:50] Most why start with programming, they don't start with bricks and mortar, you just don't go
[45:54] Tell me what that would entail.
[45:56] Does that work for me?
[45:57] Well, one, we have to identify assets that we could do that.
[46:00] So are there areas in the town that we could access for sports to launch sports?
[46:06] Are there access to potential spaces to offer after-school care or summer camp?
[46:12] Are there spaces that we could convert into senior classes or some exercise possibility?
[46:19] We have talked with the land and housing trust.
[46:23] They certainly have all those spaces.
[46:25] So, would that be an opportunity to start to establish a YMCA program center at least
[46:30] so we have some momentum so that we've already had those initial discussions about it.
[46:36] So, that is a separate entity than the building itself.
[46:40] Our focus here was just the extension on the building, but that's the plan right now.
[46:44] Now, should you have to decide not to convey the property or not to accept the property does
[46:50] does not mean we would not continue to develop a program center out of West Southern Pines.
[46:56] That may be your way and she had presence, maybe West Southern Pines, and a full facility
[47:01] may move somewhere else.
[47:04] So, at this point, have you entered into agreement with West Southern Pines Land and Housing?
[47:09] Yes.
[47:10] There's no agreement.
[47:11] No agreement.
[47:12] Discussions?
[47:15] I would like to apologize for being here late.
[47:17] That's okay.
[47:18] Thank you very much.
[47:18] two other events that I started at 2.30 and then jumped between them until I got here.
[47:22] That's okay.
[47:23] Bill, thank you for opening the meeting.
[47:25] So you are asking for a six-month extension in which you will determine if it's viable
[47:30] to use the land.
[47:32] Viable for a full facility Y, which is what was indicated, I think, in the initial agreement.
[47:38] Okay.
[47:39] I do want to express my appreciation for your revisiting the idea.
[47:42] Sure.
[47:43] I think Ms. Peterson and Ms. Gray and I were the only ones at the council meeting, and I don't
[47:47] think you all even came.
[47:48] I think Reagan delivered the news that because when Jeff moved to town and took over several
[47:53] facilities that were failing, it was overwhelming to try to open a new facility at that same time.
[48:00] Timing doesn't always work out but we think that Southern Pines is a great place for the YMCA to be
[48:05] and I think it's admirable that you're re-evaluating the potential for that to work.
[48:12] So you've talked a little bit about what you hope to have in six months is six months enough
[48:18] Yes. Okay. And then if, I mean, I think this has happened with us before that you have there's a very long timeline and sometimes getting those things done in three years is almost unfeasible.
[48:32] But if you have, I'm not sure if that's right word, but having it six month increments, if we have a smaller list to use in the next six month, I think it'd be great to see something happen.
[48:41] see some programming start in West Southern Pines and I think that we've we've
[48:47] seen that the community wants it we've seen that the YMCA is important to
[48:52] people of Southern Pines and if there's something that we can do to help that
[48:55] happen I hope that you'll let us know. Well the six months I think you've seen is
[48:59] very clear I don't think you had anything like that with you prior three-year
[49:03] agreement other than we're gonna convey the deed and we're gonna give you the
[49:07] I think that was the that was the plan so now you have now you know what will happen in the six months. I'm pretty good at this.
[49:17] So I hope it's very favorable. What we have discovered is that there's a need for program in this other parts.
[49:24] And we feel like there are some gaps, but as a high level observation, you got a lot of great resources in southern parts.
[49:32] I mean a lot of fitness centers, a lot of child care, a lot of the boys and girls clubs
[49:38] very active.
[49:39] You've got a lot of tremendous resources.
[49:41] And so how does the Y gonna fit into all that and without nudging everybody else out
[49:47] of the way, we like to be partners and fill gaps, not bullied through the process.
[49:53] But we will know, but I think our intent is, I would expect that we will have an agreement.
[49:58] But we are in an early dating phase with the land and housing trust.
[50:05] So from our end, Mac, what do you need us?
[50:07] Do we need a motion for us to vote on this extension and?
[50:12] No, ma'am.
[50:13] What I'd like to do is come back to you at the business meeting next month with some options for how we can approach this.
[50:21] As it stands today, if they don't meet the first deadline,
[50:26] the property automatically reverts ownership to us.
[50:30] But that's not a very clean title on the records.
[50:33] So, let me come back to you with some options
[50:35] about what we could do,
[50:37] and I'll have that ready for you in a memo ahead of time.
[50:39] Okay, thank you.
[50:40] For our next business meeting.
[50:41] And I don't wanna speak for Jeff in good faith.
[50:46] Maybe it goes back.
[50:47] We do the vetting, so you don't have to go through
[50:50] the convey and if it feels favorable, you may then choose to convey it back at that point.
[50:55] So we're, you know, I think at this point, we realize we've wasted three years of time.
[51:01] This is, I'm not putting any of this on, Jeff, because I see what he's had to do.
[51:05] But reverse back to the city.
[51:07] You don't make plans for it.
[51:09] Give us six months to come back to you.
[51:11] If it's a yes, convey it back.
[51:14] If it's a no, you already have your property back.
[51:16] And that's one of the options I'll bring you.
[51:19] And you'll follow up with the YMCA about those options as you present them to us, okay?
[51:24] And a time frame that makes some sense.
[51:26] Okay, so at this point, there doesn't need to be a motion.
[51:30] It's going to simply revert back to us and they can come in six months and make a pitch.
[51:36] Is that if we do nothing, the property will revert back to us by operation of law on September 30th.
[51:42] Okay, so one of the options is do nothing
[51:46] But other options exist which would be to revise the deed
[51:52] Take it literally take it back get a deed from them take it back and
[51:57] Feed it back to them at a future time if if it works out, right?
[52:01] Let me bring you the options. Okay. I'll send you a memo ahead of time. So you have to think about it. So as to today
[52:10] Nothing needed to do we do nothing today
[52:12] And if this is, in fact, the dating phase don't ghost us.
[52:18] Yeah, this, yeah, thank you.
[52:21] I'm pretty good.
[52:22] September 8th, it's not far from now, so we'll revisit this.
[52:25] September 8th, correct?
[52:27] And we'll keep you updated.
[52:28] Again, the timelines are pretty clear.
[52:30] We would hope to see some of you at the community forum.
[52:32] That's where, and I know that gathering of officials
[52:35] and I understand all the laws related to that.
[52:38] But I think that'll give you a good example.
[52:40] And for the folks in West Southern Heights,
[52:41] it'll be an opportunity there. This is not a West Southern Pines facility. It will probably
[52:49] provide the most impact to West Southern Pines. So it's my hope that they will come through with
[52:55] their passion and make sure they get folks there. But we would really we certainly want Southern
[52:59] Pines representatives there and probably some county representatives will need support them all.
[53:05] But excited about the opportunity and thank you for allowing us to do that. Are you reaching out
[53:09] to the county and state leaders about this event.
[53:12] I'm sorry.
[53:13] Have you reached out to the county and state leaders at this point?
[53:15] We'll coordinate with Asia and her team.
[53:19] And if you'll notice on the flyer, we identify kind of who,
[53:23] but we're building the list of who we would like to be there.
[53:26] And who needs to contact them.
[53:28] Funny, Ms. Dots got a lot of them in her phone directly to get to them.
[53:34] But I think we've given enough time.
[53:36] I mean, two months is normally good.
[53:38] I've had very good turnouts with some of these
[53:40] and other municipalities that I've worked with.
[53:43] And that has inspired local CEO.
[53:46] He's the one that's got to decide at the end of the day.
[53:49] And if there's just, the community's not really saying,
[53:52] yeah, you know, then there be other communities
[53:55] that he'll test out.
[53:57] All right.
[53:57] Thank you for that.
[53:58] Thank you so much for your time today.
[54:00] That's
[54:04] probably, if you want to take it.
[54:06] Yes, Bill, thank you again for getting the meeting started for me.
[54:09] our Planning Department update, Director Greve.
[54:13] Good to see you again.
[54:14] Good to see you again.
[54:16] Good evening members of Council.
[54:17] Thank you for having me.
[54:19] Everybody, I've watched Step Up Here kicks that podium
[54:21] and I just did it too.
[54:23] So we don't know the things that have to be fixed
[54:25] until we're in the building.
[54:26] I'm not saying it has to be fixed.
[54:27] I'm just saying I need to watch my big slot hopper feet
[54:29] and where I push them.
[54:33] I have four items or a quick planning department update.
[54:37] One of which is to circle back to a discussion
[54:39] Earlier this summer Councilwoman Peterson asked for a discussion regarding the topic of data centers
[54:44] We had that discussion at the work session on June 23rd. We made a brief presentation about the
[54:51] Electricity grid and the requirements for data centers. What we had learned from some research we did at the end of that discussion
[54:59] Councilman curtain and councilman Pate were not at that work session. So therefore the discussion concluded
[55:05] members of council at that time saying that prior to directing staff to develop in sort
[55:11] of a data center ordinance, it should be discussed with all council members.
[55:14] So if I may, very briefly, I'll refresh on what was already a pretty brief discussion.
[55:20] Essentially, data centers fall into three categories of size.
[55:24] There are hyper centers, which are the big whoppers that use up hundreds of megawatts.
[55:28] And it's just exceptionally unlikely any of those would ever be located within our jurisdiction
[55:32] because of the current grid.
[55:34] They locate them up by Sharon Harris nuclear facility.
[55:37] There is a facility that is proposed up there.
[55:39] They locate them down by Duke's Smith Energy Complex, down by Hamlet.
[55:45] Because again, there are lots of power in those two locations.
[55:49] We're on a little, I had a map before, but I didn't bother with it.
[55:52] We're on a little loop that comes off the main line.
[55:54] And so Duke can deliver between 8 to 10 megawatts here.
[55:59] Routinely are more county economic development folks.
[56:01] when they respond to inquiries about power demand,
[56:04] it's common for that type of request for our area.
[56:08] That would potentially warrant
[56:10] what are the medium size to small size data centers.
[56:13] And those, the issue there is that we do not currently
[56:16] have a definition in our UDO for data center.
[56:19] We would have in our UDO presently enough
[56:23] that we could probably administratively place it
[56:25] as sufficiently similar to something else.
[56:27] But it is better to have a pretty specific definition.
[56:29] It is also not inappropriate to go ahead and also look at other things specific to data centers such as where they're allowed, setbacks, buffering heights, maximum lot coverage, maximum building footprints, site lighting, disclosure of water use during site review.
[56:48] We don't have any of those things in the UDO. However, we don't see it to be a big emergency.
[56:52] I wanted to bring it back for full council discussion but I will close my remarks by simply
[56:57] saying staff had a good discussion about this and we concluded that what would seem appropriate
[57:02] to us based on inquiries based on our knowledge of the UDO would be not to drop everything
[57:07] and work on this but probably to put this on the list for phase 4 of comprehensive plan
[57:12] implementation and probably come back with some drafts and a brief discussion about it at
[57:16] the beginning of 2027 that way you're not pushing it too far out because at some point we
[57:21] We could get a small request for a small facility or a medium-sized facility.
[57:25] We'd want to be prepared, but they're not banging down our door at this point either.
[57:29] So with that, I certainly wanted to bring it back to your discussion, and that's closing
[57:33] a by-remark to them at the top.
[57:35] So we'll expect a follow-up again in early 2027.
[57:39] If you would like us to put it on the, bring it to your attention, you know how we at the beginning
[57:43] of each calendar year, I bring in a recommended list of items to talk about during that phase
[57:48] of conference of planned implementation.
[57:50] We are all working really hard on the stuff that's at the tail end of Phase 3, things that I'm going to get to actually with the next thing I want to talk about.
[57:57] That's why I'm saying we don't want to drop everything and allocate resources to work on data centers.
[58:01] But again, it's worth defining them. It's worth considering them and having them in the UDO for sure.
[58:06] I mean, I think I don't see any downside to you including it in your face for discussion and when you bring it to us, allowing us to prioritize that along with the other items on your list and at that point.
[58:16] I mean, unless anyone is adamantly opposed to even being brought up, I just think you
[58:21] include it.
[58:21] And if language needs be updated, we'll discuss what makes sense.
[58:29] If there was to one of these little mini-guys we discussed going in, we would you foresee
[58:35] that going?
[58:36] And if you had a crystal ball.
[58:38] Based on our research, many times the smaller facilities are considered enterprise facilities
[58:44] and I serve a hospital campus or they serve a school system or they serve a large employer
[58:50] that needs a small dedicated data center. And like I said, they draw a relatively small
[58:56] amount of power. We have actually at one point field an inquiry for an IT center that was
[59:01] going to serve more county schools. It was going to be the pre-application meeting we did
[59:05] was out at McDeeds Creek Elementary and that contained some equipment that could be defined
[59:11] as data center, but trust me, it was relatively small compared to Amazon or Google.
[59:15] That's how it's kind of, you knew where I was going.
[59:17] Yeah, yeah. But the great question.
[59:19] And so, yes, it would, it would those we have no problem regulating as either independent uses,
[59:25] depending upon the nature of the use, or accessory to another use.
[59:28] So we've got those covered.
[59:29] Yes, sir. Thank you.
[59:30] Thank you.
[59:32] So I think we should keep it on the table to talk about.
[59:36] If it's early 2027, that actually is not very far away, so that's great.
[59:41] My two in reading the information from central pines that they sent are that you included in the packet my two biggest concerns that I would like considered by the council and hopefully by planning and by the community is notice which I think is often.
[1:00:00] An issue with data centers where purchasers are made without a full disclosure of what the purchase, what the purchase land is to be used for. So notice is really important to me and exploration dates, which is under number seven on considerations, process tips for local governments. I don't want a perpetuity nature for approvals. I want an expiration date. And, and I'd be really interested as you guys start to dive into it. In fact, the council decided
[1:00:29] that you should. I'd be really interested in which one of the examples, the zoning examples
[1:00:36] that are listed here from Loudoun County, Virginia through Dublin, Ohio, which ones of those
[1:00:42] you must prefer and why. So I think the wheel has been invented. I also think there's a lot going
[1:00:49] on I know that in Pennsylvania, there's just an executive order that came down regarding data centers,
[1:00:57] and it's going to be a fascinating, fast-moving governmental issue, but I would like for us to have noticed, and I would more importantly like your constituents to have noticed.
[1:01:10] Those would be my top concerns. I appreciate you revisiting it and taking a look, and it's fun to have the boys back.
[1:01:17] We were missing Mr. Paid and Mr. Curtin's when we went when I first brought it up so
[1:01:25] Great to be a full council today and talk about. Thank you
[1:01:30] With the council's blessing then we'll plan to bring it back on our list of options for phase four of conference plan
[1:01:35] Thank you excellent next item is I wanted to mention because since July there's been three
[1:01:42] bill's pass that you by the North Carolina legislature, which you may have heard about, that have land use related things in them.
[1:01:49] I want to do assure you that our office is paying very close attention and give you a brief summary.
[1:01:56] House bill 162 eliminated the ability for local governments to have parking minimum requirements, so we will be preparing.
[1:02:04] We've actually decided as a team to take that work with eliminating out of our UDO all of our parking minimums
[1:02:10] and wrap it into the project that Keenan is managing regarding parking in general.
[1:02:15] So we've been talking about that topic with our parking focus group.
[1:02:18] So when that project is ready, that will include the revision,
[1:02:22] hopefully before January 1st, when that elimination of the ability to parking minimums takes effect.
[1:02:27] So we've got that one. We are aware of that one.
[1:02:31] Senate Bill 257, which also allows up to three years now to appeal administrative decisions,
[1:02:36] and they can go straight to Superior Court, that will require some amendment to our text
[1:02:40] to make sure that that's clear in there, that you don't have to stop at the Board of Adjustment.
[1:02:44] If you choose to, you can go straight to Superior Court.
[1:02:47] And then the recently passed budget bill, Senate Bill 4545,
[1:02:52] contains quite a bit of stuff, some of which is not applicable to us,
[1:02:55] because there are two things in there that at first, when you hear about them, they say,
[1:02:58] oh my goodness, we need to be aware of that. However, they are only applicable
[1:03:01] to counties, to cities over 80,000 in population and counties over a million,
[1:03:06] or counties over a million in population.
[1:03:07] Those two things are in that bill are residential right of use, in other words all residential
[1:03:13] land uses have to be allowed in commercial zones and therefore that allows that requires
[1:03:17] you to allow multifamily development, apartment complexes in all commercial zones.
[1:03:22] That does not apply here, so we're still okay on that.
[1:03:26] Obviously that's been a topic of great discussion in South End of Moore County.
[1:03:31] Also accessory dwelling unit provisions, we are also working on a project regarding accessory
[1:03:36] dwelling units. Mason is managing that project. He's got a focus group together and they've come
[1:03:40] up with a few recommendations that they're working on. However, that provision in the budget bill
[1:03:46] also does not apply to us as well. So he's free to continue working with that focus group.
[1:03:51] You will see a tax amendment coming with a few things related to that.
[1:03:55] The three that do apply to us is that the North Carolina legislature has banned any
[1:04:01] Any local requirement for window glazing, we are not allowed to have any, you cannot
[1:04:07] require that any more of the front of a building to be more than 35% windows.
[1:04:15] Right now we have some zones such as our downtown zone where we do require more than 35%
[1:04:20] of the building to be windows, that's to promote transparency and walkability and character
[1:04:24] for window shopping and we have to remove that.
[1:04:27] So we can only be now to 35% one of our zones requires that it be no less than 70% between a height of two feet and 10 feet
[1:04:34] So we have to get rid of that
[1:04:36] We also have to change vested rights from two years to five years in our UDO. We'll take care of that
[1:04:42] And also one of the more challenging ones right now that around the state is dealing with
[1:04:47] There is a requirement that local jurisdictions for development approval process
[1:04:52] Generate what is called a fee estimate for the projects the fee estimate
[1:04:57] is an estimate of all applicable fees for the project.
[1:05:01] What we're trying to figure out, I'll be brief about this, is, what is the project?
[1:05:05] If the project is from the very beginning to the very end all the way from,
[1:05:09] you might say, from rezoning to site plan review and architectural compliance
[1:05:14] through to site plan review, I think I already said site plan,
[1:05:19] through to building permit and then engineering inspections
[1:05:23] and building permit inspections for the entire project.
[1:05:28] That's going to be exceptionally difficult to generate that fee estimate all the way up when they're talking about rezoning the property.
[1:05:34] So if that's project, so we're going to work on figuring that out.
[1:05:37] But I wanted to most important thing is we're aware of what's referred to as the fee transparency requirements.
[1:05:42] And we're going to work on it. We're going to make sure we're compliant.
[1:05:45] We already have all of our fees very clearly outlined. They're adopted. They're posted online.
[1:05:49] So that's one of the big requirements that you have your fees posted.
[1:05:53] We've already got that taken care of but the fee estimate is something we're going to figure
[1:05:55] out.
[1:05:56] Any questions about those?
[1:05:57] Right.
[1:05:58] It sort of sounds like you're going into crystal ball to know which way the project is going.
[1:06:01] So is that something we should put into the budget for next year crystal ball?
[1:06:06] Yeah.
[1:06:08] I think there's nothing in there that my professional opinion is everything in there is
[1:06:14] good government, you know just requiring that the government be transparent about fees
[1:06:19] because I, as a professional planner for many years, have heard horror stories about jurisdictions where, you know, fees aren't well documented.
[1:06:27] They're not, you don't know what they, they come to you with fee, all of a sudden nobody wants that. That's not good government.
[1:06:32] On the flip side, trying to figure out exactly if it's, if it's the project means additional zoning district all the way through construction.
[1:06:40] That's going to be very difficult to, to give a fee estimate, and then the requirements stipulates that if anything changes that fee estimate, you have to continue to revise that fee estimate.
[1:06:48] So, we're going to need somebody to pay pretty close attention to small adjustments in the scope of the project that might amend those fees later down the road and make sure to keep adjusting their fee estimate.
[1:06:58] Like everything, we'll model through, we'll do the best we can with the best of intentions to comply and be as good as we can.
[1:07:04] And around the state, we'll gradually figure out as a state how to make it work.
[1:07:10] And so, again, overall, I think, as I read it, I think, I could see why this is useful and
[1:07:17] creates transparency.
[1:07:18] So entire project has not been identified or a definition has not been offered by the
[1:07:24] mandated participation?
[1:07:26] The bill that created the language does not stipulate very clearly enough for us as administrators
[1:07:32] to make it immediately obvious what project is.
[1:07:35] If the project is the conditional zoning district for which an applicant is applying,
[1:07:42] oh, that's fairly straightforward.
[1:07:43] If the project is their building permit and now they're building, that's the project.
[1:07:47] But one could also reasonably argue that the project is not just a conditional zoning district.
[1:07:52] The project is to build something that first requires conditional zoning plus all these other things.
[1:07:57] We'll work on that.
[1:07:58] I'll go ahead.
[1:08:00] I was going to change gears on, so if you're going to continue.
[1:08:02] I know I was going to ask to speak to me like I'm a fifth grader and explain to me what you mean when you say
[1:08:08] Two years to five years on vested rights. Give me give me an example. So right now
[1:08:13] The there is a stipulation in the UDO that when you
[1:08:19] Your statutory vested rights. There are multiple types of vested rights your statutory vested rights for certain types of
[1:08:26] projects
[1:08:26] projects are when you submit a project and you have a common plan of development and
[1:08:33] you stipulate how long it's going to take, you can have it seven years.
[1:08:37] If you don't submit that common plan of development with phasing, et cetera, you're automatically
[1:08:42] granted two years within which if the rules change, as your statutory vested right, within
[1:08:47] which if the rules change, while you're working on your project, you don't have to abide
[1:08:52] by those.
[1:08:52] You also have permit choice.
[1:08:53] So you can choose the new rules or the old rules.
[1:08:56] And so, however, the statutory vested rights provision
[1:09:01] is changing, so those will be locked in for five years
[1:09:04] instead of two years.
[1:09:05] OK, thank you.
[1:09:06] Yes, ma'am.
[1:09:06] Well, I'm good at questions.
[1:09:07] Yeah, my question will change gears on you, sir.
[1:09:10] But they're pretty easy, I think.
[1:09:12] They're like meatballs.
[1:09:13] The first one, I'll take me back to the windows.
[1:09:16] OK, so when we talked about the windows,
[1:09:18] you brought up downtown, and 70% by 30,
[1:09:21] is there a grandfather clause in there that protects the town because you know
[1:09:28] you walk downtown you we enjoy the big windows that are open I get to look
[1:09:31] into the stores is your grandfather the clause that allows us to maintain
[1:09:35] that not to my knowledge for this provision for new projects moving forward
[1:09:40] if it's new projects just require more than 35% on new projects okay oh yeah
[1:09:46] so nobody has to go back and retrofit their storefronts right no and that's
[1:09:50] I don't really know what I was getting at, but historic district.
[1:09:52] So we just, yeah, we were in the historic district,
[1:09:55] so take the place on higher one that just burned, right?
[1:09:59] Down, down, down, yeah, done roving.
[1:10:02] Something like that happens, God forbid, in, you know,
[1:10:07] in our historic district or anywhere for that matter.
[1:10:09] To be clear, in the local historic district,
[1:10:11] this is not applicable in the local historic district.
[1:10:13] They can still have their own roles, their own.
[1:10:15] But our local historic district, remember, is only a small rectangle.
[1:10:19] Well, it is not the same as the national register district and it is not the same as our central business zoning district
[1:10:24] We do require 70% and this is just a bummer for for me
[1:10:27] I'll I'll add because really what we're trying to we're trying to create with our central business is that corridor
[1:10:34] heading down broad
[1:10:36] Towards Pinedine and we've been talking about now creating a second destination with Pinedine and our first destination
[1:10:41] Ishes downtown in the corridor between them being a walkable corridor. Man, I tell you what you can buy a brick wall
[1:10:47] It's just you kind of, you know, you're looking to the next store already.
[1:10:51] So that leads to my question, so if I can ask, I'm done with that.
[1:10:54] Thank you.
[1:10:56] So you asked the question on the historic, which doesn't apply, which is great.
[1:11:01] But when it comes to character districts, we can't require more than 35%, but do you
[1:11:05] foresee some way that we can change, you know, lower our requirement, but because we have
[1:11:10] a design guide and binding that we can still encourage people to build something that looks
[1:11:14] looks like it fits in or has more glazing.
[1:11:17] If rezoning is required, and if it's conditional zoning, absolutely yes.
[1:11:23] If a rezoning is not required, say for example, the existing general business zoning, it
[1:11:28] is a by-right use for the general business, then their windows would be, now if it's general
[1:11:32] business, the window percentage in our UDO was already 25%, so it actually won't be a change.
[1:11:40] It's mostly in our central business district where it's going to feel the impact, but if
[1:11:44] They have to rezone, and if they're rezone with conditional zoning, and this is why I'll
[1:11:47] put in a plug for the premise of when we come in and a development says, hey, listen,
[1:11:53] I can give you this, that, and the other thing on the ground floor, make it look really,
[1:11:56] really nice.
[1:11:57] In order to pay for all that, I'm going to need one, two, or three more stories, and I might
[1:12:00] need a use that you don't love tucked into the back, but we'll make it look nice, we'll
[1:12:05] make it function really well.
[1:12:07] That's how we go through conditional zoning, and we do wind up getting the character we want.
[1:12:10] So I'm just putting in a plug for that.
[1:12:11] Sometimes we come in and we say, hey, they're going to need to do some multifamily, they're
[1:12:15] going to need to do an extra story, they're going to need to do this to help pay for all
[1:12:18] this really great design. That's part of that equation. That's good. Thank you for that question.
[1:12:23] I just didn't want to walk by the brick wall, you had a picture in my mind.
[1:12:31] It is a real thing. Some of you know, I love my job, so I go and many times when I'm out at lunch,
[1:12:39] I will observe how people are interacting with our downtown.
[1:12:42] Just, if they come to a corner, why did they choose to go this way versus this way?
[1:12:46] Just watch people, and it is a real thing.
[1:12:49] It is a real thing that the character of the street and how people feel at any given moment
[1:12:54] will drive them going across street, walking another block, spending more money over there,
[1:12:58] things like that, so it's a critical thing.
[1:13:00] Thank you for your understanding of that and patience with our level of detail on those things.
[1:13:07] Third of four issues is that you may recall while back the council was on the topic of the
[1:13:14] Pinerst avenue and the Murray Hill Road corridor is in the possibility of turning those
[1:13:19] over to the North Carolina Department of Transportation.
[1:13:22] Our esteemed colleagues in the engineering department have done the work of getting a survey done
[1:13:26] for any signs that may be located within that right-of-way that NC DOT was concerned about
[1:13:31] dealing with as encroachments within that right away before they'll accept it.
[1:13:36] Their team went out, got the survey done, went out and visited everything,
[1:13:39] and then came to us because they're really good at certain tasks. We're really good at certain
[1:13:43] tasks and we work together because we said, you know what, we could really want to help you with
[1:13:47] the outreach and the change management. We don't want to just send a letter to a land or saying
[1:13:51] your sign's in the right way, move it. So we wanted to do, we want, and this project is going to take
[1:13:55] a little while, but we think it's important to make sure that we work very closely. It turns out
[1:13:59] their only 17 signs within the right way they need to be dealt with. I thought there would be far
[1:14:04] more than that so I'm really, really happy about that relatively small number but that really means
[1:14:08] we can work with those. Whoever is responsible for that sign, we can go out and work with them very
[1:14:12] closely and it will be a slow process. We will first let them know about it. We will then, you know,
[1:14:18] we will very, very slowly on this and work with them in every possible way we can. So just want to
[1:14:22] put it on your radar because as we begin that process, we're going to work closely with everybody to keep
[1:14:27] everybody in the loop. And so we'll just treat it very much as a change management type of project,
[1:14:33] engage with the emotional side of it. Okay, finally, I wanted to give you an update on September
[1:14:38] 8th, 2026 town council meeting and the items that will be on the agenda from planning. We will
[1:14:44] write a staff report for the annexation of the property that you saw the conditional, the conceptual
[1:14:50] development permit, the rezoning for the church that is located in the intersection of Weiner Road in
[1:14:55] 22 they're annexing that property similarly that same property is coming in for their PDP
[1:15:00] Which is the second step of the process and plan development. And for a major subdivision preliminary
[1:15:05] plan for the residential lots, you remember we're on the back. That's coming in for the PDP.
[1:15:09] That will be an evidentiary hearing to render a quasi-judicial decision. We will also have
[1:15:15] a package of text amendments, the cover of a variety of topics. None of them, to the best of
[1:15:20] my knowledge at this time, are particular controversial. They're mostly just fix it, type things
[1:15:24] in the UDO that we've identified over time.
[1:15:27] It mostly, the primary one is making some revisions
[1:15:30] to our technical review committee processes.
[1:15:33] I'll let that, it's just a series of text amendments
[1:15:35] we can talk about it at the meeting.
[1:15:37] And finally, a bed and breakfast,
[1:15:39] conditional zoning district for the Skyline Manor,
[1:15:43] bed and breakfast out off of U.S. 1,
[1:15:45] near the Statuary, I can't remember the gentleman's name,
[1:15:50] who owns the Statuary out there.
[1:15:52] There you go. Next to Corey Longstreet's property out there where he sells very cool statues.
[1:16:00] Concrete statues, small statues. Any questions for planning before I sit down? An injured
[1:16:05] pain? No, no. Thank you. Okay,
[1:16:14] the last item before our round table is our code of ethics.
[1:16:18] You'll notice that my staff provided printed copy of Southern Pines code of ethics to each
[1:16:23] of our council members. This is in our drop box. It's something that I know we have reviewed
[1:16:28] in the past and I'm sure it's something that as we are elected, probably our attorney
[1:16:34] or town manager brings to our attention at that time.
[1:16:40] I have also looked at the recommendation
[1:16:42] of council and Peterson at the Pinehurst Code of Ethics and have forwarded that to our
[1:16:47] town manager and to our town attorney and I think that there are some pieces of it that
[1:16:52] I do appreciate as we look at reviewing ours, Ray, all right, in the back.
[1:17:01] We will work through updating our code of ethics and I understand that some of the ethics
[1:17:07] in our current, some of our current code of ethics, you feel like borders on the line
[1:17:12] of what is more civil behavior or request.
[1:17:17] I actually do enjoy that part of it.
[1:17:19] I think it is really important for politicians even today, as we see the change in movement
[1:17:27] away from civility at many levels, whether it be national, state, or local, moving away
[1:17:34] from just the level of respect that I would expect from people elected, I mean, putting
[1:17:41] the civility back into civil work.
[1:17:44] I will draw your attention to under the,
[1:17:49] gosh, he's probably should be labeled at some point.
[1:17:51] Under the fourth section, the council members should perform
[1:17:54] the duties of the office diligently.
[1:17:57] Section B, items two and three, council members should demand
[1:18:01] and contribute to the maintenance of order and decorum
[1:18:03] and proceedings before the Southern Pines Council.
[1:18:06] And council members should be honest, patient, dignified, and courteous
[1:18:10] to those whom they deal with in their official capacity.
[1:18:13] and should require similar conduct of their staff and other subject to their direction.
[1:18:19] Something that the Pinehurst Code of Ethics has that we do not is a whole section on
[1:18:24] enforcement and accountability.
[1:18:27] As I have received comments from people, residents of our town, I have thought through what
[1:18:36] that policy for us should look like, and I believe that, as a first step, a discussion one
[1:18:42] on one or with our town attorney about those complaints to the person and then the second
[1:18:49] time it occurs should happen at a council meeting and so this is my formal request Ms.
[1:18:54] Peterson for you to be to be more thoughtful about how you talked to applicants and other
[1:18:59] councilmanvers and the public in our meetings and between meetings and during breaks of our
[1:19:06] meetings, knowing that you speak from a position as elected official, we are all trying to
[1:19:12] represent our citizens in the best way possible. And I think that doing so with the highest
[1:19:20] level of respect towards each other encourages our citizens to feel comfortable that we are
[1:19:30] Just their faith in us that we are doing our job to represent them in the best light possible.
[1:19:38] Does that make sense?
[1:19:46] I'm asking you directly.
[1:19:51] I'm very interested in having civility within the council.
[1:19:55] That's. Thank you.
[1:19:57] As a third step, we will move to what our code of ethics outlines is a censure proceeding and should that happen.
[1:20:05] and we will discuss it in a council meeting as needed.
[1:20:09] Hopefully we do not get there.
[1:20:10] Are there any other questions on the code of ethics
[1:20:12] that we currently have or recommendations
[1:20:14] for its change?
[1:20:17] If that happens, we can be welcome to send me an email
[1:20:21] or Mac will start a first draft and we'll work through it
[1:20:24] making sure that our code of ethics,
[1:20:26] as it changes, reflects what we all would like it to say.
[1:20:32] Okay.
[1:20:33] So, yes, sir.
[1:20:35] What do you ask me in the first, like review this, take a look at it, and if we take
[1:20:42] something to change, send everyone a message, but email, and here I want section 4, Delta
[1:20:48] change whatever.
[1:20:50] Nine of it's fine.
[1:20:50] Just send you a message.
[1:20:53] So I think if there is, you can read through this if there's things that you definitely
[1:20:57] don't like, I actually think it's lovely.
[1:20:59] I think the whole thing is great.
[1:21:00] Our town is where he doesn't love it.
[1:21:02] And that's I understand why, but the one the the code of ethics and
[1:21:08] finders I will share it with you as well. And if you want to look through it, and
[1:21:11] if there are pieces of it that you like, you're welcome to let us know.
[1:21:15] Otherwise, Mack will just put together a draft and we'll work from there.
[1:21:18] Oh, thank you. Are there other questions?
[1:21:22] Thank you. Okay. Seeing none, we'll move on to our council round table.
[1:21:28] I feel like I always start left and so I'm going to start right.
[1:21:30] Alright Bob I will say before even start thank you for attending the St. Hill's Metropolitan
[1:21:37] Planning Organization meeting for me last Wednesday.
[1:21:42] It was my pleasure.
[1:21:44] It's always exciting isn't it?
[1:21:45] It was very exciting.
[1:21:46] I'm glad you asked me on a day that was not hair on fire type day.
[1:21:54] Well I don't have much hair so I did nervous, you know what I'm saying?
[1:21:57] I'm sorry.
[1:21:57] Yeah, it's okay. I feel like I've been home getting picked on by my wife. It's all good.
[1:22:03] Well, it's back to school. So if you're not getting picked on at school, that's a good sign.
[1:22:06] True statement. Yeah. No, I think from from my round table, I'm going to have to look at this.
[1:22:11] I know I brought this up a while back just because I needed to know how, you know,
[1:22:16] what and I do appreciate the way that most people here, not most, everyone on this council,
[1:22:22] especially as the guys have been here almost a year, kind of got me on board, made sure I was doing
[1:22:26] the right thing, saying the right things. I think it's important. So for my
[1:22:30] round table, I really all had today was very quick. Just, I'm really grateful
[1:22:35] to each and all of you. And as I look forward, there's a lot of work to be done.
[1:22:40] And I think we should all send Reagan an email saying enjoy these last 10, 12 days
[1:22:45] on vacation because it's going to be crazy only until December. He may not come
[1:22:51] back. He may not come back and we're on trouble. And then Jess, it's all you.
[1:22:55] Thank you. Which is fine.
[1:22:57] That's my favorite comment. Yeah.
[1:22:59] I've been sick about that.
[1:23:01] No. One thing I did have, ma'am,
[1:23:03] this is the serious business.
[1:23:04] So we rescinded the district,
[1:23:11] the social district order.
[1:23:15] And I don't know if this is possible.
[1:23:17] In the future, is there some way that we?
[1:23:20] I think that is it's my interpretation that the state
[1:23:22] didn't do that due diligence in Red's corner in the first place by, and I asked the question,
[1:23:28] why did they, and I wanted to go back and I asked the question, why are they asking for
[1:23:33] a social district with two separate liquor licenses, you know, in essence?
[1:23:39] We all granted it,
[1:23:41] you know, he said yes and now they come back after he brings it to them and they say, hey,
[1:23:45] you don't need that. And that was my question that evening. And I don't know if we can ever
[1:23:52] get ahead of something like that but it just seemed like because we spent in
[1:23:55] order not a time that evening and we really, you know, we dug in date, all of
[1:24:00] us to make sure we're doing the right thing on behalf of, you know, the
[1:24:04] business owner and all of our, you know, town folks that go there. So I'm glad
[1:24:10] it worked out the way it did for all those involved but it's just something like
[1:24:13] that is something I think that in the future we probably need to figure out how
[1:24:20] I mean, we all knew the answer was he didn't need to let the license or he didn't need
[1:24:24] to turn into a social district, but for some reason he was getting stonewalled and I
[1:24:28] think he felt like this was the right, and it was the right way to go about it.
[1:24:33] It just kind of frustrated me a little bit, and I know it was nobody here that caused that
[1:24:38] consternation on the business owner or the town, but I don't know, Mac, maybe I guess my
[1:24:42] question is really to use, is there not a way that before that comes to us and our staff
[1:24:48] puts tons of at-man hours into it that is they're not or is this just I'm just it's
[1:24:54] one of those things I'm asking pie in the sky type of stuff.
[1:24:58] My opinion is that what happened is that the ABC folks read their rule very literally
[1:25:04] and instead of applying a little bit more common sense to it, a man pushed him into a difficult
[1:25:10] position where they wouldn't wouldn't give him a permit without having the social district
[1:25:15] and that after thinking about it they finally decided that maybe they're
[1:25:19] ruled out a little bit more wiggle room in it. Okay, Mr. Berkschrin, does that
[1:25:23] your understanding? Yeah, thanks for inviting me to speak. I've been grateful
[1:25:28] that everybody expanded over to me. I can't get you to please come and
[1:25:31] podium. Sure. I didn't mean to put him on the spot, but it was on my...
[1:25:37] I was on my note. You don't have to turn anything on or anything.
[1:25:40] I think it's already on.
[1:25:43] Yeah, the greens on.
[1:25:45] It was a necessary evil.
[1:25:48] Ultimately, it was a square peg and a round hole.
[1:25:51] And I think they finally realized it.
[1:25:52] It was a couple of new faces in the room when I brought it up there.
[1:25:56] And a couple of senior people went into the back room and said,
[1:25:58] look, if you can demonstrate that these properties are contiguous,
[1:26:01] then we're going to take away one license.
[1:26:03] We're going to grant you across the whole thing.
[1:26:05] I was not expecting it.
[1:26:06] So I think through this whole exercise,
[1:26:08] we actually got the result that we desired it was not my bingo card so I'm
[1:26:13] just grateful that we all did it it's such a unique circumstance that you know
[1:26:17] from my perspective a social district is a completely different animal if
[1:26:22] you ever consider it next time yes sir thank you thank you thank you I think in
[1:26:27] in line with that what we can learn from it is the comments and
[1:26:32] application of our own rules and regulations I mean I think that we've seen that
[1:26:36] from the state level, it would have never come to us.
[1:26:38] All right, Ms. Green, Dr. Green.
[1:26:44] I get this correct myself until one day just comes down.
[1:26:47] Oh, it's all right, it's all right.
[1:26:53] In convening to a presentation brought to us earlier by Bruce,
[1:26:58] I forgot, I forgot your last names.
[1:27:00] I'm just going to call you Bruce.
[1:27:01] You're so...
[1:27:01] First name, much better.
[1:27:03] other than West Southern Pies and yeah we're very passionate there and and I do hope that this
[1:27:10] meeting on the 13th that you get a good list of people to to for that to unfortunately I don't
[1:27:19] know names and but I'll try to to scout for you on that um secondly um by the month maybe it's two
[1:27:30] months ago the police department brought to us a presentation revolving
[1:27:35] flock cameras and I was kind of unfamiliar with it and I was I was grateful for
[1:27:41] Councilwoman Peterson's input and people that she had an opportunity to speak
[1:27:49] with I guess and research that she had done but subsequent to all of that and
[1:27:55] And council knows we're a closed council.
[1:28:00] We are definitely non-partisan, but we are pro-friendly.
[1:28:06] And I'm so grateful for our mayor, for everybody on the council, for their love.
[1:28:12] And Bob, I'd hear from you, but I know you were thinking about me.
[1:28:16] Bill Taylor, I lost a student of mine two weeks ago.
[1:28:26] in the triple homicide that happened in Pine Bluff.
[1:28:31] And if it were not for the flock campers,
[1:28:33] they would have never caught the person that murdered her,
[1:28:38] her grandmother, and her grandfather.
[1:28:41] So sometimes, I guess, as a position of the council,
[1:28:48] we're elected officials and we represent everybody
[1:28:52] And we need to come to the table really having a broad perspective that definitely cares and listens to the constituencies that we may be closely connected to, but we got to really look at the broad, like I said, the broad perspective.
[1:29:10] We have a fantastic town staff and our police department is second to none.
[1:29:15] So, when they brought that before us, we didn't really know everything there was to know
[1:29:22] about flock hammers, but thank God we passed it, that we don't live in Pinebluff.
[1:29:28] That incident happened there, but certainly that incident happening shed a lot of light
[1:29:37] on the necessity of that particular tool.
[1:29:41] I'm so glad that they had it there and that that person was caught, so, you know,
[1:29:50] shouldn't it ever happen? I mean a triple homicide, but again, justice will be
[1:29:56] done, so that's not common.
[1:30:00] Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. I do want to mention in that same event a former Southern Pines employee was one of the other people who was who died. I don't even know the right way to say it. The nicest way to say it. It was awful. But I'm glad that you mentioned it. Thank you. And I want to thank the mayor also for coming to the memorial service for them. Thank you, Taylor.
[1:30:29] So yeah, I will I'll quickly jump on since it that's a good transition the county. Thank you for their
[1:30:39] additional meeting on the flat cameras. I appreciate that that Chief Polaroid came and spoke
[1:30:43] to us, but he also attended the county meeting and followed up with me afterwards. Nedra our
[1:30:49] IT director was also there and we have spoken since. Thank you to everyone who was here for the
[1:30:57] open house on the 13th. It was such an amazing evening. Just full of positivity from the staff
[1:31:06] who was here to the people who were visiting. It was a very warm open house and I appreciate
[1:31:11] everyone's involvement.
[1:31:17] AT&T was here today. I was at the airport with them just prior to the meeting
[1:31:22] which is part of why I was late. There was also a ribbon cutting for an extension of St. Joseph
[1:31:27] of the Pine's higher care facility, but AT&T made the effort of coming in meeting with
[1:31:33] Nedra this afternoon, and I think that we're working through, she identified some areas
[1:31:40] of concern that staff is having issues. And so it's really easy when they are on routes,
[1:31:45] and they need to report when something happens that she was actually able to pinpoint specific
[1:31:51] areas. And so AT&T is going to work directly with her on getting some of those, just making
[1:31:55] sure that they're working, especially the lift station areas, so I'm going to get this
[1:32:01] wrong. I should just ask her to come and speak, but making sure that those are communicating
[1:32:05] with the town so that if something goes wrong, we are getting immediate notice. I also got
[1:32:11] a call on my way here and I always want to share praise when I get it. The phone call I got
[1:32:19] as I was driving to this council meeting was someone calling public works and talk to Archie
[1:32:24] about their water and they said it wasn't arty who came out and they're not sure who it was,
[1:32:28] but they had such a great experience that their water is flowing. It was the pies were cleaned out
[1:32:32] and they just really appreciate the responsiveness. So I wanted to make sure that I'm seeing
[1:32:38] prices when I'm able. I think that's all I have. Bill? I don't have anything much other than
[1:32:46] one of the echo mayor's comments about those that came to the open house. I've heard several comments
[1:32:51] from people since and it was very well received and everybody's excited for
[1:32:55] Southern Ponds and it is a reminder to me that we'll need to now enter some due diligence
[1:33:01] with the two facilities that have become empty with a consolidation but that'll be on our
[1:33:06] agenda in the near future but just the positive of everything and being having so many people here
[1:33:12] which is great and then just with school starting tomorrow everybody be safe and patients with our
[1:33:20] traffic and officers because it's that first day is always an adventure, but that's it.
[1:33:24] Thank you and I have nothing to add. All right. All right. If there's nothing else I
[1:33:30] will hear a motion to adjourn. To move. Second. All those in favour? Aye. Any opposed?
[1:33:37] Motion carries. Thank you guys. We will see you September 8th back here for our
[1:33:41] Thanks for your time.
[1:33:42] Council meeting.