[0:00] Ready?
[0:00] >> Okay. Okay. [clears throat] I'd like to
[0:04] uh welcome everybody to the Springdale
[0:06] Art Review Board meeting. Um this is a
[0:09] special meeting.
[0:11] Today is Monday, July 6th, 2026
[0:16] and the time is 12:08.
[0:19] Um we are at the Canyon Community Center
[0:22] here in Springdale. And joining us we
[0:24] have Tom Dancy.
[0:27] We've got a new kid on the block,
[0:28] >> David Walpert.
[0:31] >> David Wahlberg, uh Nile Connley, April
[0:35] Radits,
[0:36] um uh Mike
[0:40] Alucker,
[0:42] Kathy Lefay, myself, Jack Burns, Lisa
[0:46] Benham, and Jim Walsh. I think we should
[0:50] have our main [laughter]
[0:54] » uh Okay. So, uh we have a couple items
[0:57] on the agenda today, but before we get
[0:59] started, could we uh get a motion for
[1:02] approval of the agenda?
[1:04] >> I'll move to approve the agenda.
[1:06] >> I'd second it.
[1:07] >> All in [clears throat] favor?
[1:08] >> I
[1:11] uh any general announcements from the
[1:13] town? I'd like to uh introduce David
[1:17] Walpert, our new zoning administrator,
[1:19] who's here with us. So, we're delighted
[1:21] he joined us a few weeks ago, so he'll
[1:24] be at the meeting.
[1:26] >> That's great.
[1:29] >> Okay. Um
[1:31] so, the first item we have is an action
[1:33] item. This is an application for a mural
[1:36] at Iceberg Restaurant located at 849
[1:40] Zion Park Boulevard. and Nile, you're
[1:43] gonna get us started.
[1:45] >> Yeah, thank you. So, the art re review
[1:49] board has requested to make a
[1:50] determination on a mural application at
[1:53] the Iceberg [snorts] restaurant which is
[1:55] at 849 Z Park Boulevard. Uh the board
[1:59] reviewed this application at the last
[2:01] meeting and decided to table uh the
[2:05] decision uh mostly to allow board
[2:08] members to view the mural after dark. Um
[2:12] so the board should now take this time
[2:14] to deliberate on the mural and make a
[2:16] determination on it. Uh the the key
[2:20] points are as follows. So there's the
[2:22] color palette. So the questions around
[2:24] that. The second point is around whether
[2:28] this is advertising or not and as the policy says that it it should be
[2:36] a work of art rather than uh than
[2:38] advertising.
[2:40] And then thirdly, h is it illuminated?
[2:43] And I I think since the last time you've
[2:46] all been able to visit it at nighttime,
[2:48] so you can draw a conclusion on that
[2:51] point too.
[2:53] And just finally, we received a public
[2:55] comment just this morning actually and
[2:59] I think you have a copy of it there, do
[3:02] you?
[3:08] So, just to draw your attention to that
[3:10] as well. So, I'd be happy to answer any
[3:12] questions. The business owners are here
[3:15] and they'll be able to answer questions
[3:17] too if you would like.
[3:23] » Start with um comments on the color
[3:26] palette. Um, you know, if a
[3:31] image of Zion National Park pretty
[3:34] spot-on color-wise is not on our color
[3:37] palette, we ought to look at our color
[3:38] palette.
[3:40] >> That I mean, I feel strongly on that. I
[3:42] mean, that is to me, if you look at the
[3:46] thought of going forward with art
[3:50] installations within this community, and
[3:52] we're encouraging public art
[3:53] installations, and we even had comments.
[3:57] That image just went away. Um, we even
[4:00] had comments about like how could you
[4:04] incorporate photography paintings in
[4:07] terms of public art. we talked about
[4:09] along the the walls that were put in um
[4:14] the artificial stone walls and
[4:18] you know um iceberg drive-in
[4:22] you know that
[4:24] I wrestle with that portion of it. I
[4:26] think it's tastefully artistically done.
[4:29] Um I even think it's kind of it's not a
[4:33] drive-in but it kind of it's like a
[4:35] retro flashback to what iceberg started
[4:39] as
[4:41] um you know I stuck it in front of the
[4:44] cliffs as I am that we're you know we
[4:46] might struggle with that a bit. I think
[4:49] it's adorable. Um
[4:52] that being said,
[4:54] we're faced with what might come after
[4:57] this and in the future and somebody
[4:59] else's arguments of what verbiage might
[5:02] be appropriate or not. But I also drove
[5:06] through town and Springdale Candy
[5:09] Company had I mean I can't tell you how
[5:12] much verbiage is on their windows. I
[5:14] mean it's it's a ton and it's
[5:16] advertising and are we questioning it
[5:18] because it's not mural or not art. Um
[5:22] you look at the switchback you know
[5:24] stakes this that you know those are
[5:28] words.
[5:30] Those are my comments for for now.
[5:35] I [clears throat] looked at it and I
[5:36] went and I didn't looked at it and I
[5:38] also looked up actually what a mural is
[5:42] and I'm going to take the stance that
[5:43] it's not a mural, it's a sign. And I
[5:46] think that it should really go back to
[5:48] the city and they have signage and the
[5:51] city can look at it and they can make
[5:53] exceptions. It has advertising on it. It
[5:57] doesn't fill the whole color uh uh that
[6:01] was set up. So, I'm just going to take
[6:03] the stance. It's not a mural and it
[6:05] really isn't in our our area to judge
[6:09] and I look at it as a sign and I would
[6:11] recommend it go back to the city and
[6:13] they can take it from there.
[6:17] >> I think from a functional standpoint,
[6:18] from what they said, it's actually um
[6:22] it's a window covering, right? It's
[6:24] actually it was put there to serve and
[6:26] not have a big glaring kitchen window
[6:29] going out into the town. So just just to
[6:33] either simplify or complicate things,
[6:35] it's it's um I don't even
[6:40] the exceptions that the I'm not maybe as
[6:42] familiar as you are with the exceptions
[6:44] that the town is allowed to to make
[6:46] regarding window coverings, but I think
[6:48] in this case the added area is actually
[6:51] serving functionally in a way that
[6:53] shouldn't be penalized.
[6:55] And um
[6:58] from an artistic standpoint, I was just
[7:01] looking at it again and kind of laughing
[7:02] and going, you know, from a fine art
[7:03] standpoint, it's kind of hilarious that
[7:06] because there's this giant um this is
[7:10] like coming from a I love I love art
[7:12] when it tweaks your brain standpoint.
[7:15] It's this giant billboard that would
[7:17] absolutely never be allowed placed on a
[7:19] rock like that in the canyon and yet
[7:22] it's quite delightful on a small window.
[7:24] So, uh, I I think it has a lot of merit
[7:27] coming from a lot of different
[7:28] directions and I would just hate us to
[7:30] see the whole project browbeated because
[7:33] of technicality technicalities that we
[7:36] don't know what to do with.
[7:38] >> I I might suggest that the board could
[7:41] recommend to the city that we see it as
[7:45] a sign and that we support it. I don't
[7:49] know what they're available to do if
[7:51] they can make exceptions. I don't have
[7:53] any idea, but obviously we're looking at
[7:58] >> exceptions with the color with the
[8:00] signage. So, I'm going to sort of stick
[8:02] with it's a sign and it should go back
[8:05] to the city. And I think that if we all
[8:08] feel strongly about it and if we want to
[8:10] support it, we could give let them know
[8:12] that we support it and they could take
[8:14] it from there.
[8:16] >> Okay.
[8:18] I've taken my chill pill. Um,
[8:22] we were told it's a mural, meeting one,
[8:24] and the reasons why it's a mural, sign
[8:27] or size, um, etc.
[8:31] This will be our third meeting dealing
[8:33] with this. If we kick it back to the
[8:36] town, we will have at least two more
[8:38] meetings dealing with this. I have I
[8:40] think we're all in support of what's
[8:42] there. I do. I mean, I kind of hear that
[8:43] under undertone. And I think there's a
[8:48] very um
[8:50] easy way to do this using the wonderful
[8:55] policy that we created. Um follow our
[8:59] policy and with a few conditions we can
[9:03] make this happen. If we want to say no, Don't do this loop-de-doo with
[9:08] the town. Just say no.
[9:09] >> No. No. Because why?
[9:11] >> Whatever. because
[9:14] >> I just it drives me nuts that nobody can
[9:16] make a decision.
[9:17] >> I think that you
[9:22] subject
[9:24] to
[9:28] votes,
[9:28] >> right?
[9:29] >> But I would like to hear what the motion
[9:31] >> Let me There were three items that Nile
[9:33] spoke to. One was the um illumination,
[9:36] the color, and what's the last one? Um
[9:39] signage advertising. Um the illumination
[9:42] as far as I'm concerned is a mood issue.
[9:45] I I looked at it at night. Lisa went
[9:48] last night. Uh it's not an issue. So I
[9:50] think we're in agreement there. Um the
[9:52] color palette in our policy. It says um
[10:00] a majority of the colors
[10:04] are shown on the town's pallet for
[10:07] building constructions. other less
[10:08] significant colors are compatible with
[10:10] the existing and built surroundings of
[10:13] the site. That's our own words. It in my
[10:15] mind spot on.
[10:18] Um
[10:19] so illumination I think we've agreed on
[10:24] color. We can talk about signing and
[10:26] advertising. I think that's the the
[10:28] issue. We we turn sign adventure around
[10:32] strongly for the word Zion in their
[10:35] sign. Um because
[10:41] » whatever. Um, and you're you're right
[10:44] on. Um, this isn't just about this
[10:47] application there. There's a whole bunch
[10:49] more coming. And
[10:52] so, just so I'm clear on your position
[10:54] though, you want us to make a motion on
[10:58] this because it was given to us by the
[11:01] town as a mural.
[11:04] Now, whether we agree moving forward
[11:07] beyond this application, whether or not
[11:09] it's a window covering or a mural, then
[11:13] you're saying that's a a separate
[11:15] conversation.
[11:17] >> And if we say it's a window covering,
[11:20] my understanding from Nile on our last
[11:22] meeting, it doesn't comply. It's too
[11:24] big. It it, you know, it just it's not a
[11:27] window sign. So then they would have to
[11:29] go back and either redesign a window
[11:32] sign, which is smaller or they would
[11:35] have to propose a mural and they'd be
[11:37] back in front of us with the same issue.
[11:40] >> I don't think it would come back to us,
[11:41] Jack. If we say we don't consider it a
[11:43] mural and that give it back to the city,
[11:46] like I said, if it's a sign, then the
[11:48] city will have to make a decision on it.
[11:51] And I'm not sure the city has the power
[11:54] to make exceptions. Obviously, we do too
[11:57] because we have a, as I understand it, a
[11:59] very strict color code as far as it
[12:02] goes. And we've already looking at that
[12:05] in this uh this piece. So,
[12:09] >> I just think last talked about this,
[12:12] Nile spoke to the fact that it it um is
[12:16] not a window sign because of its size
[12:20] and um okay, what is it then? It's a
[12:22] mural and that's why it's in our lap. I
[12:25] and I I would feel really bad sending
[12:28] these two
[12:30] >> down a rabbit hole. I think it's
[12:32] tastefully done. I don't think
[12:35] elimination is an issue.
[12:38] I just I think it's great and
[12:42] unfortunately the words got put there. I
[12:45] in this situation
[12:48] I'd like the whole thing to stay because
[12:50] it has a nostalgic feel. It doesn't
[12:52] strike advertising. There is so much
[12:54] advertising around that building that is
[12:57] advertising. To me, it's retro and it's
[13:01] a take back old driveins. And to me,
[13:04] those words aren't meant to be
[13:06] advertisement. They're meant to be
[13:08] nostalgic and a take back. And I think
[13:11] that I think we have to be openminded
[13:13] enough to look at things on a case by
[13:15] case basis and decide whether it's
[13:17] advertising or if it's not. And
[13:22] I completely agree.
[13:24] >> So, I'm going to step us back just a
[13:25] little bit [clears throat] because I
[13:27] have to admit recognizing that I missed
[13:29] the meeting. Um, when I read this, it's
[13:33] like what? Why are we calling this a
[13:34] mural? And I don't want I just want to
[13:38] make sure that by
[13:41] um
[13:43] u moving forward with this is that we
[13:46] are not precedent setting in that we
[13:49] decided to treat it as a mural versus a
[13:52] window covering and I'm I'm going to ask
[13:55] for some recommendation.
[14:04] » Can we call it public art
[14:11] and have it not necessarily I mean
[14:14] public art is sculpture,
[14:16] it's music, it's murals, it's
[14:20] photography, [clears throat] it's
[14:22] painting, it it has a
[14:25] >> but public art also has a caveat that
[14:30] the two has to be on display. it has to
[14:34] be up for so many weeks. U so there's a
[14:38] whole if you look into what public art
[14:40] is there's a whole list of what they
[14:43] consider is public art.
[14:45] >> I don't think at least given the things
[14:48] that you just remembered to list I don't
[14:49] think this would fail in that regard.
[14:52] Um, I just want to clarify when I called
[14:55] it a window covering, I was thinking
[14:56] like curtain, not window decal or
[15:00] whatever the town ordinance um has very
[15:03] strict rules on. I literally meant a
[15:05] window covering. So,
[15:07] >> you mean like a curtain?
[15:09] >> Yes. Because that's when they described
[15:11] functionally why it came about.
[15:14] >> Um, if if that lends a different facet
[15:16] with which to view this.
[15:21] » Great. So uh ju just a few thoughts. Um
[15:24] so for your information I've brought up
[15:26] the definitions and the policy of mural
[15:29] and public art just there so you can
[15:32] refer to those. Um yeah so a few
[15:35] thoughts. I think um
[15:40] as far as um due process goes for the
[15:44] applicants. I would maybe recommend that
[15:47] you make a decision one way or the other
[15:50] in this meeting. I think um determining
[15:54] that it's signage and that would require
[15:57] them to make another permit application.
[16:00] Uh they probably would not get approved.
[16:02] It it's probably
[16:05] not fair to the applicants to do that.
[16:08] would be my sense. I I I would
[16:10] recommend that you do make a decision on
[16:13] the basis that it is a mural. Um
[16:18] and um I would say you know those those
[16:23] three points that I mentioned at the
[16:25] beginning
[16:26] those are really the three points that
[16:28] this is hinging on. And so I think you
[16:31] know I would focus on um whether you
[16:36] think this complies with those three
[16:38] points um and whether that's um you know
[16:42] justified within the policy that that
[16:44] would be my recommendation.
[16:47] If if we need to kind of look at window
[16:50] coverings or window signs or the
[16:54] definition of the mural a little bit
[16:56] more broadly and and tweak this policy
[17:01] that we could do that but probably at a
[17:04] separate meeting that that we would kind
[17:06] of discuss that. I I would recommend
[17:09] making a determination on this based on
[17:12] the policy based on the fact that it has
[17:14] been defined as a mural and kind of
[17:17] based on those standards.
[17:19] >> Neil, did you define it as a mural?
[17:22] >> Who defined it as a mural?
[17:24] >> So that that was a staff decision that
[17:27] kind of based on this definition here.
[17:29] with a mix of colors, designs, and
[17:31] shapes, and other design elements
[17:33] painted or permanently fixed onto a
[17:36] vertical or nearvertical surface of a
[17:39] structure for the purpose of artistic
[17:41] display.
[17:43] And that was that was staff's
[17:47] interpretation that it would fall under
[17:49] that category.
[17:50] >> And is this a vinyl covering?
[17:53] >> It it is a wrap, isn't it? Yeah.
[17:56] >> Yeah. So, can we go back to the the
[18:02] photograph of the um window covering? Um
[18:07] so, again, I want to talk about the text
[18:11] within it. If you go around the other
[18:13] side of the building, shakes,
[18:16] hamburgers,
[18:18] you know, I that is as much advertising
[18:21] >> windows. I know. But
[18:25] >> in terms of like aesthetic impact, that
[18:28] is so small, I think is what you
[18:30] >> It's just so small. I mean, when I look
[18:32] at that, I see Zion National Park and
[18:34] then I just slightly see Iceberg
[18:36] Drive-In and I think, "Oh, that reminds
[18:38] me of when I was a kid and I would go to
[18:39] the A&W drive-in and we'd pull up." It
[18:41] it's it doesn't make me think of
[18:44] advertisement. It makes me think of
[18:46] childhood and the drive-ins that we used
[18:48] to go through and get cheeseburgers,
[18:49] fries, and a rip your float. It just
[18:52] doesn't because they aren't a drive-in.
[18:54] Why would they put drive-in if they were
[18:56] trying to advertise their drive-in? They
[18:58] don't have one. It's a flashback to when
[19:00] iceberg first got started. So,
[19:05] I don't have a problem with the
[19:06] >> Would another restaurant be acceptable
[19:08] with the same type of advertising?
[19:11] depending on what it was if it wasn't,
[19:15] >> you know, something blatant. I
[19:18] >> Is their name blatant?
[19:21] >> It is. And I like it in this case. So,
[19:23] you're right. I'm I'm I'm not saying I'm
[19:25] right, Mike. I'm not saying I'm right.
[19:29] >> I don't I agree with what you're saying.
[19:30] I'm thinking about what comes next. What
[19:32] comes
[19:33] >> I understand.
[19:33] >> Yeah.
[19:35] >> How do How do we say yes to this and
[19:37] then have somebody else not come along?
[19:39] >> Here's the question.
[19:41] If the letters, can the letters be
[19:44] changed to red rock without just having
[19:47] a blue thing tossed over the front?
[19:50] Okay.
[19:52] >> It's either it stays up or
[19:57] >> is the I'm not spending I'm not
[20:01] >> Yeah. Is this a
[20:05] » Is this a twopiece installation?
[20:08] >> It's one
[20:10] It it looks like
[20:11] >> it looks like it has
[20:12] >> it looks like two because that's the
[20:14] shot of illuminated.
[20:16] >> So you're saying
[20:17] >> you're not changing you're not going to
[20:19] eliminate the iceberg?
[20:20] >> Well, we have to redo the whole thing
[20:23] do it all again. And then I mean the guy
[20:27] who installed it is the one who wrapped
[20:29] our inside of our building. So
[20:32] >> our dining room area
[20:33] >> like who wrapped the inside of our
[20:34] dining room. So I we just
[20:36] >> I'm not bringing him in.
[20:37] He came he comes from Salt Lake. So like
[20:39] for us it's just not going to be worth
[20:41] it.
[20:45] » And it serves it serves a second purpose
[20:47] in regard to on the other side of the
[20:50] window is our shake room and it gets
[20:52] really hot
[20:53] >> in there. So
[20:54] >> in there
[20:55] >> n I understand where they're
[21:00] again reading what
[21:03] to me it doesn't qualify as a mural.
[21:07] it qualifies as signed. Now, my question
[21:09] would be, you said they'd have to make a
[21:11] new application out and everything else,
[21:14] new fees. Could those all be waved? And
[21:17] if it's a sign, then do you have this?
[21:21] And I don't know, does it go to the
[21:22] planning committee? Is that who makes
[21:24] the final decision on signs?
[21:26] >> So, if it was determined to be a sign,
[21:29] uh, it would be approved by staff um in
[21:33] this case. So window signs um are only
[21:36] allowed to take up 25% of the total
[21:40] window area. And so this this is the
[21:43] whole thing. So I wouldn't recommend
[21:47] that they would make an application
[21:49] because we would deny it because it
[21:52] wouldn't comply. So um
[21:57] yeah, so it wouldn't comply with the
[21:59] signage standards,
[22:01] >> but but in the same sense, it doesn't
[22:04] comply to what some of the mural uh
[22:07] criteria is. For example, no advertising
[22:11] and if you stick with the strict color
[22:12] palette, it doesn't even though I don't
[22:15] have a problem with the color because I
[22:16] agree it's what actually that it looks
[22:19] like. So, we're in the same quandry that
[22:23] you would be in. I just am a little
[22:25] nervous about when I look at at the
[22:28] definition of a mural than anything else
[22:31] that comes in. Um,
[22:35] and I again consider this a sign. So, I
[22:38] mean that's just my feeling on it. And
[22:40] someone may feel you all may feel
[22:42] different, but
[22:43] >> it's it's almost like like because the
[22:47] thing is glass, we have to do something
[22:50] vastly different with it instead of just
[22:53] the hanging size out front out in front
[22:55] of the store, right? Like it feels like
[22:59] we're shoehorning it into whatever
[23:02] category we can find without actually
[23:06] thinking what like
[23:08] satellite view like what's what's the
[23:10] actual impact of this and is it helping
[23:14] or hurting on several different
[23:17] >> Can there be no exceptions to the
[23:19] signage rules?
[23:21] Does the does it does does the city not
[23:24] have the same power that we do to make a
[23:27] recommendation on something and take
[23:29] this into consideration as a unique
[23:32] thing it for signage that it is a cover.
[23:35] They're using it as a I would almost say
[23:38] a a a I don't want to say a drape, but
[23:40] like a curtain and there are some other
[23:43] implications in it that because of the the light that comes through and
[23:50] everything else. So that is is there no
[23:52] wiggle room within the city to make that
[23:55] decision?
[23:56] >> I think that they the town was correct
[23:58] in that it isn't a sign and they put it
[24:00] in front of us as a mural and I think we
[24:02] have to make a decision on that. Okay.
[24:05] So, so maybe maybe the shift is is to
[24:12] » probably solve the problem. We're trying
[24:14] to figure out this is cool, but what
[24:16] comes next? That's that's where we're
[24:17] stuck, right?
[24:18] >> So, it seems like our conversation I'm
[24:20] hearing, the only really open item we
[24:22] have is the advertising and the text.
[24:24] >> Yep.
[24:25] >> And I'm strongly against it and I
[24:29] understand the predicament it puts the
[24:31] applicant in. However, if this had come
[24:34] before the town in the right process, we
[24:37] wouldn't be here. It would have been
[24:38] solved at the application process. So,
[24:41] we're, you know, we're trying to
[24:42] retrofit something backwards and um I
[24:48] don't think we were hired to do that,
[24:50] but
[24:51] >> well, actually, we were
[24:52] >> that's what we're doing. Um this whole
[24:55] >> So, I think the discussion should be
[24:56] about the advertising and the words. If
[24:58] we can resolve that, I'm against it.
[25:00] I'll vote against it. But if I get
[25:01] overruled, fine. I'll go with the
[25:03] majority. But
[25:04] >> I I came here today wanting this to get
[25:07] approved because I think it's so great.
[25:09] I really do. And I'm so sorry. I I just
[25:14] um I I think it adds to the charm. I
[25:17] think you guys did an incredible job
[25:18] with the red, white, that everything
[25:20] that's going on down there. It makes
[25:23] downtown Springdale more charming. But I
[25:25] would have to agree with you
[25:27] >> on the text and maybe there's a creative
[25:30] way to fix it. I don't know.
[25:32] >> And I I just don't accept it as a mural.
[25:35] >> Is there something like a p we could add
[25:38] to our policies? Sort of a percentage of
[25:41] what you know it's it's not like a whole
[25:44] wall saying Coca-Cola or something. It's
[25:46] a tiny little
[25:48] >> I think it's another I think it's the
[25:49] next conversation. I think clearly
[25:53] uh the policy needs to be revisited so
[25:56] that we have a better understanding of
[25:59] what is that a window that we're not
[26:01] confusing a window covering with a
[26:03] mural. But I think let's deal what we
[26:06] have in front of us and let's make a
[26:09] motion on that
[26:12] and then it sounds like there's more
[26:14] discussion needed to refine the policy.
[26:17] I would love to use not have them pay
[26:20] for us not thinking of the details that
[26:23] would I guess I would sorry let me say
[26:26] um
[26:30] towards our fear of what comes next. We
[26:33] will address that with different
[26:37] with with more stipulation as to what
[26:39] kind of verbiage might appear on a mural
[26:45] as opposed to say, well, you came in too
[26:48] early. Sorry. You know,
[26:50] >> we did do that design adventure and we
[26:52] made them repaint, but they could
[26:54] repaint. Now we're trying to wiggle out
[26:56] of it because they can't, you know. So
[26:58] to your credit, what Mike's saying is
[27:02] Zion Adventure was able to go back and
[27:04] paint that portion of the sign with
[27:06] limited financial impact to them. They
[27:08] cannot remove the verbage from this.
[27:11] >> Yeah.
[27:12] >> So we're trying to make it work.
[27:13] >> I guess I maybe the difference I see
[27:16] maybe is that we didn't want to backtrack with the
[27:24] sign adventure mural. We were pretty
[27:25] firm about what was okay and what
[27:27] wasn't. whereas this we're kind of like
[27:30] this is a case we didn't consider and we
[27:32] would like to have that movement moving
[27:34] forward.
[27:36] >> That's true.
[27:36] >> I still think I agree. I would like to
[27:39] see it work. I don't think it qualifies
[27:40] as a mural and I think that the city has
[27:44] the opportunity to look at it and not
[27:47] charge them again an additional fee for
[27:51] uh applying for it as signage. And they
[27:53] could call it a window cover, whatever.
[27:56] and that the the city could take a look
[27:59] at it and make the decision. To me
[28:02] personally, I don't think this ever
[28:03] should have come before us because to me
[28:06] it's not a mural. I've read everything
[28:08] on murals how what murals are. It's a
[28:11] panoramic. I like it if it but it's it
[28:17] to me if I look at the I looked at the
[28:19] real strict definition of what a mural
[28:22] is, how it's applied, what materials are
[28:25] used on, etc. So I am I'm going to vote
[28:33] that it be sent back to the city for
[28:36] them to reconsider it. So that's my
[28:38] feeling.
[28:39] >> I have a question. So, I'm gonna get
[28:43] some really bad looks on this one. Um,
[28:46] we we tabled this because we all wanted
[28:49] to look at it. We've all looked at it
[28:51] and and we see that it it has an
[28:53] artistic quality to it. So within the
[28:56] art review process,
[28:59] can a section be added for um artistic
[29:03] window wraps that we create a paragraph to that and
[29:10] what we allow in it. And then we can
[29:12] have further discussion as to whether
[29:14] verbiage and what percentage of the face
[29:16] of that sign could have verbiage before
[29:19] we have somebody go strip down something
[29:21] that's not harming anybody within the
[29:24] community. I mean it's not I mean we may
[29:27] after a lot of table discussion decide
[29:29] we don't want to see window wraps or we
[29:31] do want to see window wraps and they can
[29:33] be created as a whole another thing. It
[29:35] doesn't have to be a mural. It doesn't
[29:36] have to be a photograph. It doesn't have
[29:38] to be um a painting. It doesn't have to
[29:41] be a sculpture. can be its own thing
[29:44] because I think you know this was done
[29:46] in a very artistic tasteful way and we
[29:52] can't we can't make it a mural. It has
[29:55] to go down. If we call it a mural it has
[29:57] to come down because it has it has word
[30:00] words and advertisement. It has the name
[30:03] of their business and we made Zion
[30:05] Adventure Company remove the name of
[30:07] their business. So if in the process of
[30:10] creating
[30:12] our master plan
[30:15] we have a section that talks about you
[30:18] know other art forms and what those
[30:20] other art forms could potentially be.
[30:23] >> Well I guess for me I guess I as as
[30:25] visually pleasing as this is I don't
[30:27] think we should confuse it as art. I
[30:30] think it's I think it's a window
[30:32] covering and and I think that um uh you
[30:36] know I'm kind of curious uh if if
[30:39] somebody who wants to tint their window
[30:40] because this has a transparency
[30:44] what are the limitations of someone says
[30:46] this is a window tint it just has an
[30:49] image on it. I mean is that another
[30:52] realm that I mean how does the the town
[30:54] deal with window tinting?
[30:58] >> Yeah. So I I don't believe that the code
[31:02] has anything very specific on that. Um
[31:05] what we do have is for window signs. Um
[31:10] it says so non-elilluminated permanent
[31:12] window signs may be painted on or
[31:14] otherwise displayed provided total copy
[31:18] area of such signs shall not exceed a
[31:20] maximum of 25% of the total window area
[31:24] um on which it is displayed
[31:27] or one square foot per linear front foot
[31:31] of the premises occupied whichever is
[31:33] the lesser. So, um,
[31:37] >> are there no exceptions to that? Does
[31:40] the city not have the ability to make
[31:42] exceptions to that?
[31:45] >> That's that's my question.
[31:46] >> Then you're setting the president.
[31:48] >> So, the setting the president all over
[31:50] again.
[31:51] >> So,
[31:51] >> well, but we're talking about us taking
[31:54] a look at it and changing things. Maybe
[31:56] the city needs to look at their sign
[31:58] policy and add window covering in there
[32:01] and making a change. In the meantime,
[32:04] what we're trying to do is not penalize
[32:06] the business owners for doing something
[32:08] and make and which I hearing what you
[32:10] saying, Kathy, not necessarily making
[32:12] them take it down, which is the big
[32:14] cost, not necessarily making them
[32:16] reapply for another permit of some sort
[32:21] and then going through the process. But
[32:23] in the mean in in the meantime,
[32:27] again, it might be to the point where
[32:29] the city really needs to take a look at
[32:31] this and really take take another look
[32:33] at their signage. Uh uh uh and obviously
[32:40] if we can recommend
[32:43] exceptions, well then and if I think
[32:46] always our stuff goes to the city, the
[32:48] city needs to take a good look at it.
[32:50] And Jack, you're on the city council.
[32:52] Well, I I guess Jim, I appreciate, you
[32:55] know, kind of where you're going. I I
[32:57] understand you're trying to find a way
[32:59] to make this work. Where I'm not
[33:01] comfortable with what you're suggesting
[33:03] is is knowing that this is the very type
[33:06] of thing that will come back at us where
[33:09] this could have all been resolved, and
[33:10] don't take this the wrong way, but this
[33:13] could have all been resolved if you had
[33:14] simply approached the town before you
[33:16] did did it.
[33:18] >> We were told
[33:19] to apply for
[33:24] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean,
[33:27] >> I know. I know. I know. I'm just saying,
[33:30] you know, welcome to Springdale. But,
[33:32] uh, but the thing of it is is what Jim
[33:34] is Jim Jim is trying to find a way to
[33:36] make. I'm uncomfortable with it. Is if
[33:41] we make an exception here, then then
[33:43] we're in the position of the next
[33:45] business who has a similar issue. Why
[33:48] aren't we making an exception for them?
[33:50] Yeah, it it happens all the time
[33:52] >> and it's kind of on the town that I I
[33:55] noticed catching up with my email
[33:57] yesterday that we now have a hey, are
[33:59] you thinking of putting a mural on your
[34:01] is this in in the town newsletter, which
[34:03] is like okay, good. Um, and I
[34:07] >> So, am I correct that there was nothing
[34:09] on my business application
[34:12] regarding murals?
[34:13] >> Yeah, there wouldn't have been.
[34:14] >> There was not. And I was just going to I
[34:17] was just going to guess that probably
[34:18] there will be one added moving forward.
[34:21] >> Plus, on the window coverings, I'm
[34:23] pretty sure there's plenty of windows
[34:26] out there that are covered 25% or more.
[34:31] >> There's plenty of them.
[34:33] >> So, can I I I was listening to the last
[34:36] thing that you read. Um what was the is
[34:40] the term window covering or is there a
[34:42] different term used? Um,
[34:45] >> it's called window signs.
[34:46] >> Window signs. And then this, so I I keep
[34:50] sliding back to functionality. If this
[34:53] were a curtain, would we be having this
[34:56] conversation? A curtain on the other
[34:57] side of the glass,
[35:00] >> you know?
[35:00] >> Yeah. Perhaps not.
[35:01] >> Yeah. And that's that's where I feel
[35:03] like there's just it just happened to
[35:05] touch the glass which touches the
[35:07] outside of the building and here we all
[35:08] are. And um there's back to her high
[35:13] level view of what does that whole area
[35:15] look like in terms of signage and and
[35:18] we're going to take issue here. And I
[35:20] totally get the the quandry. I totally
[35:23] get it. And and yet I think we're
[35:25] throwing the baby out with the bathwater
[35:27] here um without finding some way through
[35:30] here that also fixes the future and
[35:33] maybe doesn't kick it back to the town.
[35:35] Because I hear Jim, as much as I agree
[35:37] with you, I hear
[35:39] the town saying
[35:41] >> we do not want to do that.
[35:42] >> They're saying they don't want to make
[35:43] an exception.
[35:44] >> No, they're saying they don't want us to
[35:46] kick it back. They want us to decide
[35:48] this today and I think so do all we
[35:51] >> But I guess a question for you Nile is
[35:54] if this we deny it today as a mural.
[35:58] >> Is this can this qualify as a window
[36:00] tent?
[36:04] So
[36:06] yeah, I mean we we we'd have to look at
[36:09] as a as a window sign, which doesn't
[36:12] actually require a permit for a window
[36:14] sign. Um
[36:18] so
[36:19] >> but it's covering 25% or more.
[36:24] >> And it's not serving as an ad well it
[36:28] may double but its main purpose was to
[36:30] cover up a window. I think for just in
[36:33] the essence, you know, interest of time,
[36:36] um I think we probably need to move
[36:38] forward and treat this as a mural and
[36:40] then what happens beyond this as far as
[36:44] whether that stays or or you're just
[36:46] going to have to do something else. I
[36:47] think that's probably another
[36:49] conversation.
[36:54] So, yeah, I think there's a few things.
[36:56] Um,
[36:59] yeah, if you determine that it's not a
[37:01] sign, then we can look back on the
[37:05] take a look at the signage chapter of
[37:08] the code and see again if it complies
[37:12] with that or if there's kind of a way
[37:14] that it could stay under that. Um
[37:20] if you wanted to change the policy um we can we can look at that
[37:28] in a subsequent meeting. Um,
[37:36] so yeah, I I think there's
[37:38] >> Can we vote to say that it's not Can we
[37:41] all say we don't think this is a mural
[37:43] and kick it back to you? As much as I
[37:45] hear that you don't want to do that?
[37:47] >> Yeah.
[37:47] >> I'd like to make a motion.
[37:49] >> I I I think you could do that if if you
[37:51] felt it wasn't a mural and then we would
[37:53] work with them on the signage front.
[37:55] full motion, but I'm still not clear on
[37:57] where we um stand on the advertising and
[38:01] the verbiage. Sounds like you're against
[38:02] it. I'm against it. I don't know about
[38:05] >> I actually
[38:06] >> Well, but what if three say it's okay?
[38:10] That's I'm I'm still unclear where we
[38:12] are
[38:13] >> talking signage. Mike, I I I think what
[38:17] we're trying to do is move on with this
[38:19] because we have a heavy agenda. Uh, and
[38:22] so, uh, I agree with you on the signage.
[38:26] I think they've been pretty strict about
[38:28] signage and, uh, so I will wait and hear
[38:33] whatever motion is made. If I were to
[38:35] make a motion, I would make a motion
[38:37] that this not be considered a mural and
[38:40] that it be sent back to the the city.
[38:45] >> So, let's hear your motion.
[38:46] >> Yes, please.
[38:49] Um
[38:55] it's u
[38:58] the art review board uh conditionally
[39:00] improves
[39:02] um the mural at the Iceberg Drive in 849
[39:04] Z Park Boulevard based on the following
[39:07] findings and additional conditions
[39:09] findings. The mural does promote and
[39:12] enhance the town's village character.
[39:16] The installation is classed as a mural
[39:18] rather than a window sign and complies
[39:19] with applicable size and dimension
[39:21] standards for a mural.
[39:26] A majority of the colors do contain
[39:30] colors shown on the town's color palette
[39:33] for buildings and structures and other
[39:35] less significant colors are compatible
[39:37] with the existing and built surroundings
[39:39] of the site.
[39:42] The mural is not eliminated or backlit
[39:45] and is compliant with town policy. The
[39:48] mural contains advertising which is
[39:50] non-compliant with town policy.
[39:53] As a conditional approval, the following
[39:55] additional conditions are required.
[39:59] The applicant must continue to prevent
[40:00] any backlight transmission from inside
[40:02] the building and acknowledge that no
[40:04] illumination of the mural surface is
[40:06] permitted.
[40:08] The applicant shall remove all
[40:10] references to Zion, Iceberg, Drive-In,
[40:12] Advertising, etc. from the mural and the
[40:16] applicant must acknowledge the
[40:17] responsibility to maintain the mural per
[40:20] section 10-20-13 of town code. So that's
[40:24] strictly it's a mural.
[40:28] » So then I'd like to hear Kathy's motion.
[40:34] » I make a motion that Um,
[40:39] >> the art review. Well, this would be if I
[40:41] made a motion,
[40:42] >> right?
[40:43] >> I would make a
[40:44] >> This one's on the floor.
[40:46] >> Go ahead.
[40:47] >> I would change your motion to say
[40:49] >> you can amend it
[40:50] >> that the art review board has determined
[40:53] that this is not a mural and it's more
[40:55] of a window covering and should be
[40:58] addressed through a different agency
[41:00] with the town.
[41:02] >> I'll second that motion.
[41:03] >> Well, you can't yet because I'm just
[41:05] talking about that. But Mike doesn't
[41:06] have a second on his motion.
[41:09] >> Hasn't been voted on.
[41:11] >> Um, and you know,
[41:13] >> if it fails, then we go another route.
[41:15] That's the way it works.
[41:19] >> So, if it doesn't have a second, then it
[41:21] fails. And then you would do another
[41:23] motion,
[41:24] >> correct? It either fails or it stands
[41:27] without a second.
[41:28] >> Yeah.
[41:29] >> Although I really agree with the motion
[41:30] that you just made.
[41:32] >> But other than it's not a mural.
[41:34] >> Yeah.
[41:36] Just trying to make not a small piece.
[41:39] >> Jack, you would have to say the motion
[41:41] fails because of a second and then
[41:43] Kathy's would come up.
[41:44] >> Kathy seconded,
[41:46] I believe.
[41:48] >> No.
[41:48] >> Oh, you didn't.
[41:49] >> But he hasn't have a second.
[41:50] >> Okay. Then call for a second.
[41:56] >> There is none.
[41:58] >> So the motion that Mike made has failed.
[42:02] Do we have another motion? like to make
[42:04] a motion that the art review board has
[42:07] determined that the application from
[42:10] Iceberg with respect to the image that
[42:16] was placed on their window is not in
[42:19] fact a mural
[42:21] and is determined to be more of a window
[42:24] covering
[42:26] >> as opposed to a mural. window ad
[42:30] >> as opposed to a window ad or a mural.
[42:35] >> I second that motion.
[42:37] >> All in favor?
[42:38] >> I
[42:41] >> No,
[42:44] the motion passes too.
[42:46] >> I just Sorry, Nile. [laughter]
[42:49] >> Yours is much more
[42:51] >> trying to make it work and we're going
[42:52] to be here. I know 12 more windows
[42:54] coming.
[42:56] >> I know. So let's make sure moving
[42:58] forward we're not
[42:59] >> we identify calling
[43:01] >> well by calling this
[43:02] >> treatments murals.
[43:04] >> We they won't come here if they're not
[43:06] murals
[43:07] >> and and and also to Nyla and now I talk
[43:11] talked about this the last time we
[43:12] really need to get out to business
[43:15] owners and the community
[43:18] the mural policy. It was in the last
[43:22] newsletter. There was a
[43:23] >> It was okay. Good. Because then there
[43:25] isn't any questions because what we're
[43:27] doing is having to look at this after
[43:30] the fact. Someone does something and
[43:32] then they didn't go through the process
[43:34] and then here we are, you know, making
[43:37] decisions when if it was that if an
[43:40] application was made, we get the
[43:42] application. We we can look at it. We
[43:45] can see it. We can make any suggestions
[43:48] prior to it being done. and businesses
[43:52] and and even homeowners if they're going
[43:53] to do murals, they need to know what it
[43:55] is. So, I would again I'm glad it was uh
[43:59] published and so uh you know I just
[44:03] can't hate to see us keep going over the
[44:05] same thing over and someone does
[44:07] something and then we're So, anyway,
[44:10] >> we're all in agreement.
[44:13] >> Sorry you guys.
[44:17] >> Okay.
[44:19] Thank you for your patience.
[44:26] » Well, thank you for coming
[44:28] >> and again, welcome to Springdale.
[44:29] >> Yeah, the next step here
[44:33] with Nile now.
[44:34] >> Yeah. So, I think um let I I will touch
[44:38] base with you both on kind of what that
[44:41] means and we'll go from there.
[44:45] >> Thank you.
[44:46] >> Have a good rest of your day.
[44:48] Okay. Uh, so the next item on our
[44:51] agenda, this is a non-action item. Uh,
[44:54] this is going to be a work workshop
[44:56] session of Springdale's draft public art
[45:00] plan. And Nile, do you want to get us
[45:03] started on that?
[45:04] >> Yeah, thank you. So
[45:07] for this uh this section of the agenda,
[45:10] I thought it would be useful to have
[45:13] more of a workshop session to to um yeah
[45:18] push forward the public art plan. So
[45:21] what I've created, it's a little bit
[45:24] middle school art project, but bear with
[45:26] me. Um at the back of the room, I've got
[45:29] some um some questions for you to
[45:34] consider. some material for you to look
[45:37] at. I'd like to get your thoughts down
[45:39] on paper. Um, so it's it'll be kind of a
[45:45] just an opportunity for you to kind of
[45:46] move around uh discuss it in a more kind
[45:50] of flexible way. Um, so I think we're
[45:53] going to transition into a different
[45:55] sort of part of the meeting where the
[45:59] we won't have a recording because it'll
[46:01] be just a workshop session. So, if you
[46:05] want to come over here and we can we can
[46:07] get started on that. Once we're finished
[46:10] with this, we'll come back to the DAS for you to conclude the
[46:15] meeting.
[46:17] >> Okay. We could just have a couple
[46:19] minutes before we start. I just wanted
[46:21] to really thank Jim for the work that
[46:24] you've done to kickstart this.
[46:27] >> I had a fun time doing it and artist.
[46:29] I'm not Lisa's the artist. Jack, you're
[46:32] the artist. I just have a fun time. So, it was
[46:36] >> I had a good time doing it
[46:38] >> and I you can take it. I I you're not
[46:42] going to hurt my feelings if you go,
[46:43] "Oh, no." But I also spoke with one of
[46:46] my neighbors, um, and I think maybe Mike
[46:49] knows her, uh, Linda Barnes, and she was
[46:51] an art teacher, and, uh, she said she'd
[46:55] help out with any artwork because
[46:57] obviously
[46:58] I like art, but my skills are limited,
[47:02] [laughter]
[47:03] to put it mildly,
[47:06] >> but I had fun.
[47:08] >> Thank you.
[47:09] >> So, um, front page for me. Um, and
[47:14] again, this is no offense. You I'd like
[47:16] it to have a real professional look. Um,
[47:19] I did reach out to Willa Marie Hules
[47:21] Camp. You reached out to Linda Barnes. I
[47:23] think there are a number of artists in
[47:25] the community that could create
[47:27] something that would tie into the
[47:29] Springdale logo feel, you know, a little
[47:32] bit more on the professional. This kind
[47:34] of ties into some of the murals and
[47:36] things that kids have done. Um, the
[47:40] verbiage that you picked for the front
[47:42] page, it's fantastic. I like the words.
[47:46] I I I think it's great. Um, you know,
[47:50] we're going to go do a work session. You
[47:52] know, there were some typos or things.
[47:54] Um, your your introduction and I went
[47:57] back and I read the master plan for
[47:59] Ivans again, which I think is a great
[48:01] working document, but needs to be
[48:03] changed. And just that beginning
[48:05] introduction, I changed to say
[48:08] Springdale is the gateway community to
[48:09] Zion National Park. We welcome over 5
[48:12] million visitors each year. While we are
[48:14] hosts to so many visitors, we also we
[48:18] are also a community that is home for
[48:20] over 500 people. We are surrounded by
[48:22] the Closian National Park, an amazing
[48:25] natural art display in itself. In
[48:28] addition to the natural beauty that
[48:29] surrounds the town of Springdale, the
[48:31] town has a long history of supporting
[48:33] the arts through public art
[48:34] installations. And then it goes right
[48:37] into what Jim wrote. Public art has the
[48:40] power to transform spaces, inspire
[48:42] residents, attract visitors, and reflect
[48:44] the unique character and history of our
[48:46] town. Springdale's general plan seeks to
[48:48] promote the town as an art community.
[48:51] This plan identified identifies the
[48:54] types of lo types of locations where
[48:57] public art should be encouraged and how
[48:59] the town will administer its art
[49:02] program.
[49:03] After we do what you guys have set for
[49:06] us, I'd like to share with everybody
[49:08] some images of art by a local artist,
[49:11] uh, Megan Cox. she works with metal and
[49:14] we had talked about um that kind of
[49:17] identified that front circle coming into
[49:20] Springdale as maybe one of the high
[49:22] priorities for a piece of public art. I
[49:24] had a conversation with Megan Cox. I
[49:26] asked her to send some images because I
[49:30] like what she does. She's been in this
[49:32] community for decades.
[49:34] >> She currently doesn't live in Springdale
[49:35] just because she can't afford it and
[49:37] shouldn't be penalized because she has
[49:39] and she's worked here.
[49:41] >> Um and Rock Rockville or Virgin.
[49:44] >> She's she bounces where she can find a
[49:46] home.
[49:47] >> Um
[49:47] >> and she's still a local is my point.
[49:49] >> Yeah. And um going back to some of that
[49:53] great public art that is along the
[49:55] freeways in Las Vegas and looking at you
[50:00] know the possibility of like a male
[50:02] female to infant big horn sheep in kind
[50:06] of that 3D metal fullcale height but not
[50:11] full scale body. And you know, I I asked
[50:15] her also because we're talking about an
[50:17] annual budget of 8,000 and um I said,
[50:20] "Is that could you produce that type of
[50:21] art for eight?"
[50:22] >> Well, we're hoping for more.
[50:24] >> Yeah. And she said that would be a
[50:26] struggle, you know, but I would love to
[50:28] do the project.
[50:29] >> Well, we're hoping for more moving
[50:31] forward.
[50:32] >> Okay. So, so let's let's deal first with
[50:34] the meat of this plan and and I think,
[50:37] you know, it's it's certainly coming in
[50:39] more and more into focus and then what
[50:41] it looks like visually. Then let's have
[50:44] a whole conversation on that as well.
[50:46] >> Yeah. And I think
[50:48] I mean I like this group. I like these
[50:50] meetings, but you know there's a better
[50:53] faster way to do this. Um what's our
[50:55] mission? What's our goals? You know what
[50:57] bullets do we want in this thing? We're
[50:59] diving down into specific pieces of art.
[51:01] No. No, no, no. We're We're way above
[51:04] that. I think we should be.
[51:06] >> Well, let's let's see what he's got.
[51:08] Yeah.
[51:08] >> Can I do ask it? So, for all of the
[51:11] effort that you put in here, it it
[51:13] prompted me to seek clarity. We are
[51:15] we're not Springdale City. I know that
[51:18] town of Springdale or Springdale town
[51:20] when when we're putting town of
[51:21] Springdale. That's what I thought. So,
[51:23] Jim, town of Springdale, not Springdale
[51:26] City.
[51:26] >> Okay. [laughter] Okay.
[51:29] while you're putting in so much. We
[51:31] wanted to go in