1 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:34,800 All right. Good afternoon. Call to order the September 3rd 2 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:42,800 commission meeting to order attendance to 3 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:47,600 Smith. Smith, Pam Porter, Eric Herbert, Mr. Plita, 4 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:53,760 Sean, um, Aaron, 5 00:00:51,120 --> 00:01:00,879 Becky Rice, and Kathy Berszag, and Anthony Yard here. So, 6 00:00:57,199 --> 00:01:08,720 first item on our agenda is to approve the minutes from August 6th. Are there 7 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:14,240 any additions or corrections? Mr. Chair, a couple typos noted by staff 8 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:19,439 within the minutes. >> Uh on packet page three, uh the third 9 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:24,960 paragraph from the bottom beginning with Megan Yor, uh the second instance of 10 00:01:22,479 --> 00:01:32,479 Miss Yor's last name, uh is missing an E. Uh so we'll have that corrected. Uh, 11 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:35,479 additionally on packet page 8, um, 12 00:01:37,759 --> 00:01:45,119 apologies. The third paragraph down, uh, beginning 13 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:52,040 with Vice Chair Berszac, uh, it says, Vice Chair Bersac, if the language the 14 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,040 word asked was omitted. 15 00:01:53,119 --> 00:02:01,439 I have one more day. Last 16 00:01:57,759 --> 00:02:06,920 um paragraph right about the eight. The last two words zone in district. 17 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,800 » Okay. 18 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:19,800 Does anyone else have any changes or corrections to the minutes? 19 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:30,480 Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion to approve the minutes as presented or as 20 00:02:26,879 --> 00:02:35,720 modified and corrected. >> Okay. 21 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:35,720 » All right. 22 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:42,441 » Who was the second? >> Eric Herbert. Yeah. No, 23 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:46,160 » I mean, Mr. [laughter] 24 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:49,046 » I'll get it together. >> Turn these around. [laughter] 25 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:58,000 » All right. Um, 26 00:02:54,640 --> 00:03:03,920 so any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. I. Those 27 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:09,400 » against. Any opposed? 28 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,400 Motion carries. 29 00:03:10,959 --> 00:03:21,840 All right, following the agenda, we have no 30 00:03:18,159 --> 00:03:29,200 new business. So, let's uh focus on the old business. This is new language for 31 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,840 accessory dwelling units. Um Dalton, would you like to introduce the item for 32 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,280 us, please? >> Uh absolutely. Okay. So, at the previous 33 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,280 planning commission meeting, uh the commission advised staff to draft some 34 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:44,159 sample language to better contextualize our discussion on possible accessory 35 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:49,599 dwelling unit text amendments. Uh you'll find that language on packet pages 11 36 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:54,319 and 12. Uh this is based uh largely on the commission's discussion, the survey 37 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:57,439 results uh as well as the echo unit housing language which exists currently 38 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:03,200 in the ordinance just to try and keep that consistent. Um 39 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:07,519 we have several items within the language that we have recommended the 40 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:12,000 commission discuss uh particularly dimensional requirements in terms of 41 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:15,200 height setbacks uh just to advise if we feel those numbers are accurate and 42 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:19,359 within the bounds of what we feel appropriate to make sure we're 43 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:23,680 maintaining the character of the city. Um 44 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:30,240 additionally staff has provided an uh analysis. So we in the staff report 45 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:35,600 packet pages 13 through uh 18 we have provided some accessory 46 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:40,320 dwelling unit language from three other communities uh these being Sue St. 47 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:44,000 Marie, Traverse City, and Paskki uh who have accessory dwelling unit language in 48 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,600 their ordinance. Uh just to give you a reference point for what this looks like 49 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,280 in other communities, we've provided a table which compares some of the 50 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:55,520 dimensional requirements uh in their ordinance to those proposed in the 51 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:59,600 sample language. Um we have received commentary from uh Commissioner Eert who 52 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:04,720 unfortunately could not be here tonight. Uh in addition to the topics that staff 53 00:05:02,479 --> 00:05:10,400 has recommended discussion a point that he has uh risen is discussing whether or 54 00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:14,720 not ADUs should be a conditional or special use. Um for reference I'm sure 55 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,800 you're all aware but just so everyone in the audience knows as well. Uh 56 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:23,520 conditional use would be a staff review. Uh where a use is not outright permitted 57 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,639 by right. uh it would require review of an additional conditional use permit 58 00:05:25,039 --> 00:05:31,120 which staff would review and make sure certain conditions are met along with 59 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:35,199 the use. That is how we've laid it out in the language uh presented to you 60 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:39,120 tonight. However, the other option uh would be a special use permit. This 61 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:42,160 would be a similar process with similar st this would be a process with similar 62 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:45,360 standards but a different process in that it would go before the planning 63 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:51,240 commission for recommendation before being approved or denied and acted upon 64 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,240 by the city commission. 65 00:05:51,600 --> 00:06:00,759 Thank you commissioners. Before we start with the discussion, do we have any 66 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,759 further questions for staff? 67 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:11,680 » Just one thing that that I kind of came across a few times just so I'm clear. If 68 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:16,479 I had an attached garage on my home, the height limit would be 35. 69 00:06:14,479 --> 00:06:19,280 » Uh, correct? So if the garage is attached to the home, it would be 70 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:22,880 considered a part of the principal building. And then the bulk standard 71 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:27,199 requirements of article 5 would apply. In this case, the 35 ft. If it were 72 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:31,840 detached from the home, then you would look at uh article 3 section 3.9, which 73 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:36,400 lists the hypher detached structure at 14 ft. 74 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,960 And I guess before we get into rest of the disc discussion here when you were 75 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:45,759 mentioning that conditional versus special use, is there also an option for 76 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:50,720 it to be a just permitted by right use or is that not allowed for some reason? 77 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:56,560 » You could have it permitted by right? So we've included uh at the back of your 78 00:06:52,720 --> 00:07:00,000 packet uh appendix BC of the Michigan building code. Uh Trudy can provide 79 00:06:58,319 --> 00:07:04,960 additional commentary on that. She's more familiar than I am, but essentially 80 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,919 those would be the minimum requirements if the city commission were to adopt 81 00:07:06,479 --> 00:07:13,360 that into our building code. That instead of requiring any additional uh 82 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:19,560 zoning review, it would be permitted by right at those minimum requirements 83 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,560 would be the alternative. 84 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:31,280 There's no further questions with staff. Let's open it up for discussion. 85 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:36,880 Um staff has asked us to give some feedback 86 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:42,160 as to some of the specific items that are um highlighted in this new draft 87 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:48,960 language. Um so let's let's take them one at a time. The first one being 88 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:55,120 height. Um right now it's uh it's first proposed as 24 ft is the maximum height 89 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:59,520 for the p uh of the height of the primary dwelling which or or the height 90 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:05,039 of the primary dwelling unit whichever is lower. thoughts on this uh proposed 91 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:10,160 height limit from anyone >> comments. 92 00:08:06,639 --> 00:08:15,919 The 24 feet is it taking under the same dimensionality as in the definitions 93 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:21,520 from mid-grade and mid roof line or is 24 feet to the top of the is that the 94 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:26,560 maximum height overall or is that the taking off the same definition as the 95 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,919 way you define height in the ordinance? it would maintain the same measuring 96 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,839 requirements used elsewhere in the ordinance. So if you had a flat roof, it 97 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:38,640 would be just to the maximum height, but if it's a pitched roof, you would go 98 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:41,360 from the medium point of that for the maximum height. So it could go a little 99 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:46,240 bit over at the >> and and the same would come into play if 100 00:08:43,599 --> 00:08:48,720 you were on a sloping lot where you use mid-grade then 101 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:55,120 » correct. Yeah, you take the average grade. So based on that, I think the 24 102 00:08:52,640 --> 00:09:01,519 um my concern I understand when it's attached to the main structure. Um 103 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:08,720 however, if it's out in the backyard and it's a foot or so from the street and it 104 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:17,200 was 35 foot high to the mid roof or to the mids slope of the grade, um then in 105 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:22,240 all essence, the resident dwelling unit would then be overlooking 106 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:30,560 the neighbors yards and everything else. And so, um, I think the lower height is, 107 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:35,200 um, is a good option. Realizing though that, you know, they're probably with a 108 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:39,920 garage that's already existing, you're going to have to do a fire roof layer 109 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:44,720 between the garage and the upper dwelling unit. So you probably need that 110 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:48,880 extra height in order because I was trying to do it in my math and you know 111 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:53,680 in my head like 10 feet per floor maybe and then if it's already a established 112 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:58,720 garage that you pull the roof off of I believe you have to add fire between a 113 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:05,200 garage and a upper level dwelling unit. So then the 24 seem like a reasonable 114 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:08,880 amount um and about the minimum amount that might make all of that work for 115 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:15,040 getting you know that extra fireproofing and things in. So, um I I feel like that 116 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:19,760 based on the, you know, the way it's defined and how it would um work in 117 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:28,200 relation to the rest of the ordinance is um is u a an acceptable alternative 118 00:10:28,959 --> 00:10:38,880 » on that. I would ask Trudy, do you do you feel that uh if a a detached garage 119 00:10:36,959 --> 00:10:44,079 as an accessory dwelling or as a sorry as a 120 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:49,839 uh do you think 24 ft provides enough room to add 121 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,839 a dwelling unit above a garage? Do you think there's as far as construction 122 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:58,480 ability? Of course, it depends on the pitch of the roof a lot because you 123 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:04,720 have, you know, the barn load roof, Gabriel roofs, roofs and 124 00:11:01,839 --> 00:11:10,000 » and all that. But an average height for a dwelling is 8 feet and then a garage, 125 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:14,800 it's usually a little more than 8 feet because the doors are seven, you know, 126 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:20,800 have to pull up. So, you got to figure at least eight and a half down here. So, 127 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:25,680 that would be, you know, 16. 128 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:33,240 right right there. I as you notice in the work that go that 129 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,240 some are 18 130 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:42,360 » instead of 24 but right now we're at 14 the 14 would not give any 131 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:46,560 » thank you >> and I think also since it's based that's 132 00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:50,800 why I wanted clarification if that was the overall height or if it's the 133 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,240 definition per height requirements in the ordinance that to the midpoint of 134 00:11:53,279 --> 00:11:59,760 the roof Yes. What's in the ordinance? 135 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:04,480 » It would be a nightmare to to say we're going to do ADUs under this stand and 136 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:09,600 then regular, you know, primary structures standard. 137 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:14,519 » I agree. I'm I just wanted to make sure that that was what it was based on. So, 138 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:26,480 » so it sounds like unless does anybody else have any other comments on height 139 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:30,320 with regards to this new language? You know, I guess for me the height is 140 00:12:28,079 --> 00:12:34,800 one of the bigger concerns for me to try to to kind 141 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:40,560 of get my head around uh and allowing it to work. You know, we 142 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:46,800 have detached garages. I can see the attractive nature of having an accessory 143 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:52,000 dwelling unit above that detached garage because it does provide you know more of 144 00:12:49,120 --> 00:13:01,200 an independent dwelling unit. Uh but on the other hand 145 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:05,760 it does not give I guess a a similar non ADU property owner the same height 146 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:10,320 allowance for their garage. You know, if I had, 147 00:13:08,399 --> 00:13:16,880 you know, if I had a detached garage on my residence, I would still be 148 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:20,880 restricted to 14 feet if I didn't have an accessory dwelling unit. So, that's 149 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:28,720 » Are you Are you looking to make a garage that's 24 ft tall? No, I'm just just uh 150 00:13:25,839 --> 00:13:35,200 trying to look at it from a view of of do I feel that that's fair to allow a 151 00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:40,000 property owner that puts in an accessory dwelling unit to be have an allowance 152 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:45,360 more than a property owner that does not have an accessory dwelling unit. I'm not 153 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:49,279 strongly opposed either way. I'm just trying to, you know, 154 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:54,800 » get a flavor for if do I feel that that is fair to all property owners. 155 00:13:53,360 --> 00:14:00,079 » My comment on that would be that it's a higher use of the land to provide 156 00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:04,720 additional housing instead of just a garage to store more stuff. So, yeah, 157 00:14:03,199 --> 00:14:09,920 maybe someone might have an issue with, oh well, their structure can be taller. 158 00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:15,279 Why can't mine be taller? But you're not if you're not trying to do anything more 159 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:19,040 useful with it then I don't know. 160 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:22,320 » Okay. >> True. more I think about 161 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,399 » it's good good to think about the other >> you know I guess you know I think about 162 00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:30,639 it when you know the home can be up to 35 ft tall 163 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:37,839 I don't think it's that big of an ask to allow for an accessory dwelling unit to 164 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:43,920 go up to 24 feet with regards to the garage building an 165 00:14:40,959 --> 00:14:48,240 ADU above a garage would 18 ft be sufficient 166 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:52,639 » well it depends on the size of the garage do in the design of the roof, 167 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:58,000 excuse me. >> Um because a lot of garages are, you 168 00:14:55,279 --> 00:15:04,480 know, 20 by 20 and um 169 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:06,399 you know, that would be 400 square ft. >> I'm talking about height. 170 00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:08,240 » Oh, height. >> Height. 171 00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:13,519 » Yeah, I think 18 >> 18 feet would be sufficient. 172 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:17,519 » 18 could be 24 certainly. >> Okay. 173 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:22,480 » And 18 could be limiting. I mean you look at Trevor City and Sus Murray both 174 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:27,920 are 25 comparing relative things right Paskki has lower amount but 175 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:30,959 » I think 18 ft would lead to some awkward designs. 176 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:35,519 » Okay that might not be as attractive. I think a little more height might allow 177 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,920 it to blend in more naturally with the existing home. 178 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:46,079 » Okay. Thank you. 179 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:49,920 Does anybody else have any comments? on height only. 180 00:15:46,959 --> 00:15:55,920 » On height only. Yes. So it sounds like we have a consensus 181 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:59,440 that 24 feet would be okay. I'm >> seems reasonable. 182 00:15:56,959 --> 00:16:05,360 » Okay. All right. 183 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:11,519 Let's uh move to size. draft proposes between 400 and a,000 184 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:16,000 square feet not exceeding the size of the primary dwelling unit 185 00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:20,959 » which sorry which >> we're on packet page 17 186 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:22,720 » list are you going off of here there's >> make sure we're going in order so we 187 00:16:21,839 --> 00:16:27,440 don't skip stuff >> I think we're on packet page 17 188 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:32,320 » so do you want to do setbacks first then >> um 189 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:36,720 » oh um clarification I think a source of confusion so on on packet page 17 190 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,199 there's A there's a chart which shows comparisons between the different 191 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,199 communities but this does not necessarily line up with the order they 192 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,680 are presented in the uh considerations section which is just below that. 193 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:51,000 » I see. >> Um 194 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,000 » just a point of clarifies. 195 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:58,079 » So we like to consider the size of this. Let's do size first. 196 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:03,920 » Let's do that first. Yeah. [laughter] >> So 400 to a,000 not to exceed the 197 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:10,319 current dwelling unit. What's what are the thoughts on that? 198 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:14,400 » Where is the 400 minimum coming from? What is that based on? 199 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:18,640 » Uh so that's just kind of similar to like what I've seen in some research of 200 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:23,039 what sizes look like in other communities. Um 201 00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:27,280 you don't necessarily want one that's kind of too small and not serviceable. 202 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:33,520 If you look at the the back, you will see that the uh in appendix BC, it does 203 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:36,720 permit age not less than 190 square ft. So, it could theoretically go smaller. 204 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:41,200 That's certainly something to be considered here as well. Um 400 just 205 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,760 seemed like a good baseline considering the numbers that I saw in other 206 00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:48,400 communities. >> I guess I guess the question would be 207 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:53,520 what it's what is the in general my my kind of thought philosophy on this is is 208 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:58,880 only restrict things where it's necessary. And so in the sense of 209 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:03,600 if someone wants to build something smaller but then they can't fill it with 210 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:09,760 someone like I don't I guess what is the point of of having a minimum size um 211 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:14,240 when we can whoever's building it can decide if 212 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,760 that's going to be too small or not. >> Okay. 213 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:24,559 » Um to the building code for a space to be a habitable dwelling area you have to 214 00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:30,400 be able to cook food store food. Okay. >> And um clean food. You have to have a 215 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:35,039 bathroom. You have to have certain things for it to dwell in area. 216 00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:39,360 » Yep. Makes sense. >> So, um 217 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:46,799 I can see your point is you're saying that like a studio apartment type thing. 218 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:53,280 Okay. And the um the codes pretty clear of what you need to have for it to be 219 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:57,039 and 400 would be about the size of the garage. It's like 20 by 20. 220 00:18:55,120 --> 00:19:00,280 » So, I think that's probably where they come up. 221 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:07,840 » That sounds pretty accurate. Yeah, you do have to fit a lot in there to qualify 222 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:10,960 as a dwelling unit. >> I don't necessarily think it's too big. 223 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,440 I'm just trying to make sure we're not >> there's an argument to be had that the 224 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,240 minimum requirements that Trudy's talking about like being able to fit a 225 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,760 uh >> kitchen and a bathroom in there that 226 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:24,160 might >> in essence force you up to a similar 227 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,120 size 400 ft. So why are we requiring that? That's a fair point to make and 228 00:19:25,679 --> 00:19:30,960 definitely why we're having this discussion right now. So something to 229 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:33,679 consider if we want to even have a minimum size requirement or just go what 230 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:39,360 with uh >> the appendix uh suggests of 190. 231 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:43,919 » Yeah. and the habitility be habitility be requirements. 232 00:19:42,943 --> 00:19:48,480 » [clears throat] >> I think that the 400 minimum makes sense 233 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:56,000 if it's supposed to meet certain requirements and um I feel the thousand 234 00:19:52,400 --> 00:20:02,799 is too much because if two people are the maximum that can be in there and a 235 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:08,240 studio apartment can fit in of 400 I feel doubling that should be adequate 236 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:12,559 that we don't need to oversize these um >> well the the thousand square feet 237 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:17,280 » the number of people is a separate thing Eric, go ahead. Finish, please. 238 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:22,799 » So, um, so, you know, I think I agree with the 400, but I feel that if there's 239 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:28,720 two people allowed to be in the unit that you don't need more than double for 240 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:34,559 two people. So, um, you know, assuming they might have separate bedrooms, um, 241 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:40,480 you know, it seems to me like the, um, the other ones were comparing it to, um, 242 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:47,600 ours, the thousand would be the largest. And um I don't feel that we need the 243 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:53,120 additional 200 square ft added. I would like to see us more similar to what the 244 00:20:50,159 --> 00:20:58,240 other um municipalities that are similar to us um from a tourist standpoint or 245 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,840 anything else or looking for middle housing might have. So, 246 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:07,120 » okay. >> I think I, you know, I I wouldn't want 247 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:10,880 to go smaller than 400 ft, especially if some of the criteria we saw towards the 248 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:14,960 end of having, you know, a separate heating system, separate electrical 249 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:20,559 controls that are accessible, right? I want to have rental units or accessory 250 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,559 dwelling units that are available that provide 251 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:31,360 these requirements. I wanted to be able to have, like Trudy said, cooking 252 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:38,400 facilities, bathroom facilities, uh, that are appropriate. As far as the 253 00:21:33,679 --> 00:21:44,320 upper size, uh, I'm not opposed to a a thousand square feet. I think our it it 254 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:49,679 wouldn't apply in a lot of areas or be available in a lot of areas in the city, 255 00:21:46,559 --> 00:21:57,520 but our city has a lot of different sized homes and lots. And I can envision 256 00:21:53,520 --> 00:22:05,919 the possibility that some homes could have a 1,000 ft accessory dwelling 257 00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:09,760 unit and it and it work just fine. Uh, would it work really close to the city 258 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:14,880 and close to city hall with really small lots? No. Could it work in the parts of 259 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:21,360 the city that have bigger homes and much bigger lots? I believe it could. 260 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:26,880 So, I have a question. So, if you allow a thousand, what stops a smaller home 261 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:32,880 from putting it a thousand and having that upper level can lever? That's what 262 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:39,039 I'm trying to figure out is how then um because it seems to me that the majority 263 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:44,559 of people needing this because if you have a lot of property, you don't really 264 00:22:41,919 --> 00:22:49,039 you you could build onto your home at the 35 foot height and still have a 265 00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:54,720 separate entrance and call it an ADU. You don't need a separate standalone 266 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:00,159 building. However, it seems to me the most benefit for these are in tighter 267 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:07,919 spaces where you want to build up above a garage. And so, how do we control 268 00:23:03,919 --> 00:23:13,120 is it based will it will it be based on if you are going above a garage that you 269 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:19,520 base it on the footprint below and it has to match those dimension or 270 00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:23,919 will it be allowed to be canolvering and that's what I don't understand. Yeah, I 271 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:29,840 guess some possible considerations. So, I don't believe the language as it's 272 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:34,880 currently presented separates out um detached and attached for the purposes 273 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:38,240 of the maximum floor area. So, it's possible you we may want to separate 274 00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:42,799 those if you feel it more appropriate if you're adding on to the home itself to 275 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:46,159 allow for a larger ADU. Uh that could be a consideration. I have seen in some 276 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:52,320 other communities, not the ones we're looking at today, but some communities 277 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:56,080 do based on a percentage. So, you would essentially create, it can be a little 278 00:23:54,559 --> 00:24:00,080 bit convoluted and hard to understand, but they create an equation based on a 279 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:04,320 percentage of the size of your lot to determine what the maximum square 280 00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:08,640 footage. So, if you want to maybe allow um lots of a certain size, it wouldn't 281 00:24:06,159 --> 00:24:14,240 necessarily have to be so complicated. We could say lots uh up to x amount of 282 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:19,440 square feet, 6,000 square f feet are permitted to a maximum of 800 ft². Lots 283 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:25,440 over are permitted uh up to a thousand, something like that maybe uh appropriate 284 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:31,120 to kind of address those concerns. >> I I think I'd like to try to I'd like to 285 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:38,000 try to keep as many of our other requirements the same if we can, like 286 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:43,840 setbacks, lot coverage. I try to look at it as from a perspective if I had a home 287 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:48,720 and outside of an ADU I just wanted to put on an addition to my home. I wanted 288 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:53,840 my home to be bigger, taller, bump out, whatever. And I think if we 289 00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:58,720 could achieve if someone could achieve an ADU and be still inside those 290 00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:02,720 requirements, I think I'd still be comfortable, right? I wouldn't want to 291 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:06,799 exceed lot coverage. I wouldn't want to encroach on setbacks. Yes. So that's 292 00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:10,960 what I think you and I are saying the same thing. And I'm worried if we go up 293 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:15,200 to a thousand, but we don't somehow define where that is allowed. Can 294 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:18,960 someone on the second level then can lever five feet each direction? Get that 295 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:25,279 extra square footage. >> I could lever my home right now, right? 296 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:29,840 » No. Anything over six inches off the ground goes against percent of coverage, 297 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:37,960 » right? >> You would still have to meet the setup. 298 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:37,960 » Yes. So the language uh 11.12.27D 299 00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:44,480 an ADU which is located within or attached to a principal structure shall 300 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,520 comply with the dimensional requirements of article 5 or principal structure 301 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,799 » page one. >> Oh sorry this is packet page 11 um as 302 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,880 the sample language is presented. So they they would still be beholdened to, 303 00:25:55,120 --> 00:26:00,640 as Commissioner Miller was saying, they would still be beholdened to the same 304 00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:05,840 height requirements, lack coverage, setbacks, um regardless of if it was an 305 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:10,799 ADU or a uh single family home. So, if someone were 306 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:16,880 to build on to the upper level of their garage 307 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:20,960 and the second floor is above 6 in off the ground, then all of that upper level 308 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,640 would be figured into percent of coverage, which then might limit the 309 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,559 size overall. >> Correct. 310 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:30,080 » That's my perception. >> Correct. Yes. They'd still be beholden 311 00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:35,760 to lot coverage requirements and setbacks for cash accessory structure. 312 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:40,640 Um the the only exception that is presented uh for those requirements in 313 00:26:38,159 --> 00:26:45,120 here would be the increased height uh in the case of an ADU which the intention 314 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:51,400 of that is to more comfortably be able to design an ADU above a garage. Uh, 315 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,400 » okay. 316 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:59,440 » I have no issues with the with the thousand feet and I mean if anything we 317 00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:06,080 just say potentially even scratch that and just say less than the primary 318 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:09,520 dwelling like Susie Murray has but I don't think we again I'm trying trying 319 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,679 to limit how much we're we're restricting where where it's not 320 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:17,520 necessary >> but in the survey everyone said they 321 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:20,559 wanted maximum sizes. So what does that mean exactly? I guess you 322 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,440 know >> it was pretty pretty much all the 323 00:27:22,159 --> 00:27:28,080 questions were split and again it was a 1% response rate. So 324 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:33,520 » yeah I I guess I have a question maybe Trudy can answer it. So let's say I have 325 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:38,880 my existing home and let's say it's 2,000 square feet and I want to turn the 326 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:46,080 basement into an accessory dwelling unit. By measuring, would it now if if 327 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:52,880 both levels were 1,000 square ft, would my 2,000 square foot home now just be 328 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:57,360 1,000 and each one would be,000? >> Are you talking in terms of living area 329 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:06,559 or >> whatever, however we define square feet. 330 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:12,399 » Okay. So when we get a plant into the building department, we're looking at 331 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:17,520 step back and how big the basement if it's not finished isn't included in the 332 00:28:16,159 --> 00:28:21,039 square. >> Okay. Let's say it was finished and I 333 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,679 just wanted to close it off, provide a second entrance, whatever would be 334 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,039 required to make it an accessory dwelling unit. Would that 335 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:28,880 » Yeah, like an egress window, a separate entrance. 336 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:34,240 » Yeah. >> Well, it would be a separate 337 00:28:31,919 --> 00:28:37,279 mechanical system. >> Yep. If if I was able to do that, that 338 00:28:36,399 --> 00:28:41,840 would >> then that would be included in square 339 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:47,640 footage for living space. >> Okay. 340 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,640 » Right. Rel 341 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:05,600 » So I have a question of staff. What is so if the similar cities to us don't 342 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:10,880 have a thousand don't go that high what what are we trying to achieve by going 343 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:15,039 to a th00and square feet? >> Uh thousand square feet was kind of 344 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:20,720 meant to sort of start on the high end of what I've seen uh and then we can 345 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,159 maybe work down from there. Again the intention of this is to give us a 346 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:27,919 baseline for discussion. So, this is presenting it on kind of a high end uh 347 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:33,120 compared to the other communities that we're looking at. Um, but if we want to 348 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:36,799 reduce that, uh, we certainly could. Uh, as, uh, Commissioner Herbert said, Sue 349 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,480 St. Marie, they only require that it be smaller than the primary dwelling. So, 350 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:46,320 that could theoretically be much larger than a thousand square feet. Um, so it's 351 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:51,440 really meant to serve as a baseline for something that could be reasonably 352 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:56,320 allowed. Um, and again, setbacks, lot coverage are going to be limiting 353 00:29:52,399 --> 00:30:00,080 factors here, um, as well. So, thousand square feet might be possible for a home 354 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:06,480 on Ridgeway, but it might not be so much possible for something on State Street. 355 00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:10,000 And I think a thousand square feet if if possible, and I think there's a lot of 356 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,640 the areas of the city where it wouldn't be possible, but I think where possible, 357 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:21,440 it could provide an opportunity for there to be a small family home. You 358 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:28,159 know, a thousand feet for a small family isn't enormous, but it's it may provide 359 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:33,840 enough room for extra bedrooms for, you know, small kids. Uh, so I I think I 360 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:38,480 like that thousand square feet. I don't expect a lot of examples of it. I 361 00:30:36,399 --> 00:30:43,039 wouldn't be that uncomfortable going a little bigger, 362 00:30:40,399 --> 00:30:48,240 but I think it's easier to relax standards. If we started at a th00and 363 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:53,840 and in a year we kind of got some feedback that hey maybe 1,200 would work 364 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:59,919 better. I would it's easier to relax a standard than to try to tighten it back 365 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:05,039 up. But I I have no no concerns about a th00and square feet. I would not want to 366 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:10,000 go more smaller than 400 though. >> Can I ask clarification? So if it was a 367 00:31:07,919 --> 00:31:14,880 thousand square feet and the mention of small children, then would there need to 368 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:19,360 be a break in where the square footage accommodates more than two people? 369 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,520 » Yeah. I I think I I want to talk about that more when the when the number of 370 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,679 people comes up. >> Yeah. So the next talking point that I 371 00:31:25,679 --> 00:31:31,679 had listed here would be the occupancy. Currently it lists two. Um, we could 372 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,000 increase consider increasing that to three or four, which would possibly make 373 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:41,760 sense. As you've discussed, if you have a couple that has one or two small 374 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:46,559 children, at two, that would not be able to rent the accessory dwelling unit, but 375 00:31:44,399 --> 00:31:50,279 at three or four, they could that could be an option for them. 376 00:31:50,720 --> 00:32:02,399 » Any other comments on on this one size? Do we have a consensus as to where we 377 00:32:00,159 --> 00:32:07,120 at? We comfortable with how the language is now or do we want to change it? What 378 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,519 is what's the general consensus here? 379 00:32:09,679 --> 00:32:16,039 » I'm good as written. I know Kathy's a little concerned about the the bigger 380 00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:16,039 size, 381 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,640 » Miss Rice. My final thought, 382 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:28,080 » I'm good with it, Dan. >> I would actually like to come back to 383 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:33,039 that question after we talk about maximum people. That that seems 384 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:37,039 reasonable to me. I'm on the fence between 800 and a thousand, but we'd 385 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:42,480 like to talk about two to four people. 386 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,600 » So, do we want to table that until we >> Yeah. 387 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:50,320 » get some clarification on occupancy? So, why aren't we we okay with that? Let's 388 00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:55,840 let's let's uh let's table that for now and let's Mr. Plick, you want to give 389 00:32:52,640 --> 00:33:01,440 some input? Where are you at with00? >> Okay. So, let's let's move let's go to 390 00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:07,679 occupancy then. Let's uh let's let's determine what we think about that. So, 391 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:13,600 um what are the thoughts on occupancy? I I personally don't see a reason for a 392 00:33:09,919 --> 00:33:18,880 limit. Again, I kind of go back to if I had my home and I wanted to expand it 393 00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:23,120 within the zoning requirements of the city. I 394 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:27,440 wanted to put on addition, I wanted to finish some space in the basement or the 395 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:32,960 attic or or whatever and it was fit within all of our zoning requirements 396 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:38,880 and all I needed was a building permit. Um, I think there could be an accessory 397 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:44,320 dwelling unit that would allow more people. 398 00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:50,240 If if we're going to rent, we need we handle the rentals in the building. 399 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:55,440 When we're under there's a property code when we do rental inspection, we give 400 00:33:53,039 --> 00:34:03,840 out rental. Okay. So, um that is very specific as to 401 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:08,960 the size a bedroom to be. Has to be 70 square feet for one person. You can have 402 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,839 another person at 50 square feet. So, a bedroom has to be 403 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Now for studios, um it's not as clear in the property 404 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:23,359 maintenance code, but we really don't have many studio apartments. All we 405 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:29,760 really have are the ones that are at Lake Press in the middle of the forest, 406 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:36,159 okay? Where it's one big open room >> and they have a separate bathroom and 407 00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:42,480 then a kind of gather kitchen, okay? and that we measure the whole size of that 408 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:50,960 room. Then so then we determine occupants on 70 and 15. 409 00:34:47,919 --> 00:34:58,320 » So for our studio apartment there for an example to have three heartbeats and we 410 00:34:53,839 --> 00:35:04,640 go by heartbeats. Okay. So you had 170 square feet could have three 411 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,839 heartbeats. would have what? 412 00:35:05,839 --> 00:35:13,760 » Three heartbeats. >> And when someone submits an application 413 00:35:09,359 --> 00:35:17,520 for a rental permit, um are they on that permit saying how many people they're 414 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,599 looking to rent it to and then it's approved? Okay. 415 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,960 » And that's how many they're allowed, right? 416 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:29,920 » Okay. Because um at one point I had 10 rental units in the city. I was here for 417 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:36,320 23 years in the city and I rented to a gal, single gal. It wasn't that big of 418 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:40,880 an apartment. twin bed and all and sister 419 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:45,040 and her three kids moved in. Okay. So, but that space couldn't accommodate five 420 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,079 people. So, she had the power and this is what I tell people. You have the 421 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:55,599 power of the city behind you that you're not a legal rental for five people. What 422 00:35:51,200 --> 00:36:00,880 you, you know, a legal rental is two people. So, that way she could say, "You 423 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:05,839 can't move in with me because I'm not, >> you know, I'm not allowed to have it. 424 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:10,240 I have a question. >> If it's not a rental and it's maybe a 425 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:14,000 family member moving in, >> where would the size limitations be on 426 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:21,040 the occupancy there? I mean, how does that 427 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:27,079 » Well, the ADU would be new to us. We >> But are there still minimum size? Yeah. 428 00:36:23,359 --> 00:36:27,079 If it's a two unit, 429 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:36,560 » there would still be occupancy limits. >> Oh, yeah. 430 00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:38,560 » Even if it wasn't a rental, if I built a brand new 431 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:44,960 » Oh, if it's your own house and you're not renting it, go for it. 432 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:52,400 » But if if you're renting your house, I mean, uh the court looks at it that um 433 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:59,200 your renters are entitled to 30 things. fresh air, you know, hot water, you 434 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:05,520 know, certain things and certain socks. Now, I just because um I find it 435 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:11,280 interesting as I talk to other building officials, you know, that problems, they 436 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:14,960 look at people literally moving into a whole family like moving into the 437 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,800 garage. Okay. Now, you know, remember we're 438 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:26,240 talking about rental areas above a front, but some of these could be where 439 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:33,839 people want to move like into the front, you know. So, and put parking outside of 440 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:37,640 the out. So, so remember it's not that we're just talking about. 441 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:47,280 » I have a question. So currently anytime you look at a rental unit when you 442 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:54,640 evaluate it, so um what minimum square footage you're 443 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:58,960 saying 170 square ft of a building of a unit could have three people living in 444 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:04,000 it currently. >> Okay. So if you look at a weekly rental, 445 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:09,839 let's say, and you look at the square footage, then you determine how many 446 00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:13,359 » rentals. So, let's say weekly to 30, the 30-day or whatever. If you look at a 447 00:38:11,599 --> 00:38:19,680 30-day rental and you go in and you evaluate the square footage, do you put 448 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:23,920 three people per every 170 ft or is that only based on a certain portion of it 449 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:27,119 being 170 ft like bedroom occupancy? >> Yes, that's 450 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,359 » So, you base it on bedroom occupancy for 170. 451 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,160 » Okay. >> Except where we're going to have a 452 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,720 studio. >> Yes. 453 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,720 Okay. Thanks, 454 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:47,480 Um, >> any of this detached or attached trigger 455 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,480 any sort of fire suppression system? 456 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:57,359 » Well, that's a very good question. So, the Michigan residential code is for one 457 00:38:54,160 --> 00:39:02,920 and two family homes. Okay. And a townhouse. 458 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920 Townhouse only. 459 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:14,640 So, Technically, when a building gets more than two boiling units, it goes 460 00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:18,880 into the building code and the building code would require sprinkler systems for 461 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:24,160 three. >> That's per building, not per lot. 462 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,960 » That's per building, >> right? 463 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:31,920 » So, if you had if you had a duplex, if you had a duplex and a detached ADU, 464 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,920 that's still fine. That doesn't trick you. 465 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:45,520 Um, I echo Commissioner Miller's comment that I don't I'm not sure that we really 466 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:48,960 need to have a any kind of restriction if if we're renting it out, right? We're 467 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:54,880 going to have restrictions when they apply for permits anyways. Um, and then 468 00:39:53,119 --> 00:40:00,880 if you've got family and stuff, I don't like again if you're if you live in your 469 00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:06,079 own house, you can do whatever. So if you got family and they're not renting 470 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:09,920 it out, why is that different? So if we >> Yeah, we don't require rental 471 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:13,119 certificates. >> So if we if we've already got other 472 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,119 mechanisms that are going to enforce something, 473 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,040 I feel like there's no reason to to add another restriction here when it's 474 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,480 already going to be restricted >> under the rent. 475 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:31,119 » Other Yeah. Okay. So based on that, if you end up 476 00:40:27,839 --> 00:40:39,280 with five people living there in that small unit, um, and they all are 477 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:43,200 adults and they all have jobs that require them to drive to work and we 478 00:40:41,359 --> 00:40:50,880 only require one additional parking space, that I just feel like that not 479 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:57,520 limiting anything is going to open up a big can of worms that's going to cause 480 00:40:52,800 --> 00:41:03,680 all kinds of um issues that you know we want this to be successful. We want it 481 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:09,920 to be a good neighbor. We want it to benefit the housing shortage that we 482 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:15,200 have. And I feel that if we don't put any restrictions or consider all of 483 00:41:12,319 --> 00:41:20,800 that, then we're not really um we're setting ourselves up in my 484 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:25,839 opinion for it not to be successful because again, one parking space and you 485 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,119 know, well, we're not going to limit the number of people. So then where are they 486 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:34,560 all going to park their cars? Are they going to be blocking the neighbor's 487 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:39,520 garage? Are they going to be parking in alleyways overnight and everything else? 488 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:45,200 because Ellie's evidently you can park in. So I think it's like we need to 489 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:52,240 really think this through for what we're trying to achieve and what the purpose 490 00:41:47,599 --> 00:42:00,160 of it is and it's to help provide the housing for the middle in you know the 491 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:06,000 middle housing that's missing and um I don't know that you know having 492 00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:10,720 unlimited numbers of square footages and people will accommodate that in a 493 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:14,240 neighborly fashion that's It's just my opinion. 494 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:17,359 » We already have restrictions on the people based on the rental stuff. 495 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:23,680 » But she's saying we wouldn't if it becomes a if it's a non- rental family 496 00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:28,800 situation. So you and you allow a bunch of family 497 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:33,280 members to move in and they all have vehicles, but you only require one 498 00:42:31,359 --> 00:42:40,079 parking space. Oh, >> I mean, you have the same issue with if 499 00:42:36,319 --> 00:42:43,839 I've got a big house and I've got um eight kids and a bunch of them live 500 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:49,119 there. Like, it's just it's no different. It's the same exact issue and 501 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:53,440 we're fine with that, right? We're not saying people are limited to 502 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:57,520 four people in a primary house. show, but the ADU is a different in my 503 00:42:56,079 --> 00:43:02,640 opinion, it's something we're introducing to try to add more housing 504 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:06,400 options and um you know, many people that mentioned some said they wanted it 505 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:10,400 for relatives, but there were a fair amount that wanted it for rental income. 506 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:15,480 And so, I think we have to think of all the aspects of what these might be used 507 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,480 for. 508 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:25,920 I think the, you know, I like we've discussed, I could take my current home 509 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:32,319 and expand on it, modify it in whatever way 510 00:43:28,319 --> 00:43:37,680 is allowed within the ordinance and put I won't say as many people, but put a 511 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:42,480 lot of people in it. I'm I'm hesitant to restrict the number 512 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:45,960 of people in a unit. 513 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,760 I could I don't have a problem with maybe coming up with the number, but it 514 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:56,319 would be more than three or four. >> I think it should be based on the square 515 00:43:53,440 --> 00:44:00,400 footage. So, if you're able to build a certain square footage based on your lot 516 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,640 size, then you get X number of occupants. If you're able to build a 517 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:08,640 larger square footage based on your house sites, then that hopefully means 518 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:12,800 that you have a lot more property where you could accommodate more vehicles and 519 00:44:10,319 --> 00:44:18,079 things. I think it should be go hand in hand. Square footage and occupancy 520 00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:21,839 should go hand in hand and they should be a certain amount for a certain square 521 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:25,359 footage and a certain amount for a larger square footage which means your 522 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:30,720 property's larger. Kathy, do you feel like the 523 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:36,800 square footage regulations through the IPMC help at all with that? Like you 524 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:41,520 need 70 square foot for one occupant, 50 for each additional occupant. So, you 525 00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:46,720 know, when they submit plans to us for the ADUs and stuff, we would limit them 526 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:49,359 on occupants based on square footage of the bedrooms. 527 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,560 » Well, that's what I was wondering. That's why I was asking the question 528 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:56,240 about how you and I know it's a poor example to use short-term rental, but 529 00:44:54,560 --> 00:45:00,079 that's what I was trying to decipher how you determine those numbers. Now, 530 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,599 » you do that with homes, too. When they give us plans, we calculate square 531 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,359 footage of the bedrooms and put the occupants in. 532 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:12,240 » I mean, that to me seems reasonable because if that's how you already figure 533 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:16,480 it, um I just don't feel that it should be that you know, if you do 400 square 534 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:20,160 feet, you should have an endless number of occupants. Um, 535 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,720 » but that's not what I'm hearing though from the city of 536 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,520 » That's why I'm saying I think we need to use some restriction and I like the idea 537 00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:30,640 of that. >> But I think it may be self regulated, 538 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:34,160 right? If someone had whatever size unit and they the city came and inspected and 539 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:37,440 it's like, okay, your bedrooms, you have this many bedrooms or this size, you can 540 00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:41,520 have this many people. >> Would you regulate that with ADU? If 541 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,160 this is enacted, it would be the same code enforcement 542 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:49,760 » if it's a rental. >> If it's a rental, okay. And if it wasn't 543 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:53,760 a rental, I think people would be >> wouldn't wouldn't make the choice to 544 00:45:51,359 --> 00:45:58,000 make an ADU for family, >> right? You're I I personally think you'd 545 00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:02,240 be better off just improving your home if you wanted your in-laws or your adult 546 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:05,440 children living there. I personally think you'd be better off just 547 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:10,000 remodeling your home, putting on an addition. Oh, you're not able. Let's say 548 00:46:07,839 --> 00:46:14,240 you have limited space and your only space available is above the garage, 549 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,720 then maybe we >> I think I think we're all on the same 550 00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:22,880 page. The rental part is the part we need to govern and and be concerned with 551 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:28,160 and regulate. And if you're going to build above your garage 552 00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:33,119 » to the city's a family member and it's not a rental, then 553 00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:36,640 » well, it has to then it is right. then then they're in the position where the 554 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,920 city is going to inspect it and go there's this many bedrooms of this size 555 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,240 you're allowed this many people. >> Yeah, I think that's a good point. Thank 556 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:48,400 you. >> So what what are those limits? If if we 557 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:51,680 if the bottom level is 400 square feet, would that accommodate two people? Is 558 00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:58,160 that enough square footage to accommodate? 559 00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:03,119 » You know, would 800 accommodate four? >> Yeah. depends how big the bath the 560 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:07,599 bathroom and kitchen is. In terms of >> living's perhaps space, yes, you do have 561 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,480 to have somewhere to store and cook food. So, they have to have a kitchen. 562 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,880 You have to be able to go to the bathrooms. They'd have to have a 563 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:18,560 bathroom. If you got 400 square feet, kitchen taken out of that, you got 564 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:22,480 bathroom taken out of that. Probably a living area, but maybe not. 565 00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:26,480 » Studio than the bedrooms. >> And the bedrooms is where we calculate 566 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:30,160 the square footage. So if you've got 120 square foot like a 10 by 12 bedroom 567 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,880 that's two people. >> Okay. 568 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:36,960 » Um yep. So we've only looked at the bedrooms themselves and square footage 569 00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:43,599 in there to calculate how many people can be in the residence. 570 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:47,520 » D your comparison with Travers did you were there any limits on on their side 571 00:47:46,319 --> 00:47:52,079 of homes? >> Uh so in terms of occupancy that's I 572 00:47:50,319 --> 00:47:58,480 believe we've got the language in here. I can double check it as I recall. 573 00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:05,119 uh it's largely unressed uh to their ordinances. Um so they may have been 574 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:09,640 leaning uh on building code regulations to uh handle their occupancy. 575 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:17,760 » I think I just like the essentially the self-regulating part of the city will 576 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:23,599 come in and they will they'll measure and count and they'll go okay this this 577 00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:27,200 unit can hold this many people. Um, right. That's how it is with any 578 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:32,559 apartment in the city. It could be a big apartment, could be a 579 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:37,359 » any anything that's being added uh goes through that process. Yep. 580 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,680 » And, you know, with with this accessory dwelling unit consideration, you know, I 581 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:48,720 want I want this to be a an affordable option 582 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:53,280 that might be created for for young families. 583 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:57,520 And if a young family has mom and dad and three kids, I want and the the unit 584 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:02,400 is big enough, I want mom and dad and three kids to have that available. 585 00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:08,720 » Trudy, what were you going to clarify for us? 586 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:15,280 » He wanted to know what was uh >> um so 400 square feet, you know, the 587 00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:19,359 minimum. How many is that? Two people, is that three people? 588 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:24,000 » Okay. So, uh, you're assuming one big room 589 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:27,359 or bedrooms or what are >> what were the 590 00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:31,680 » I guess both. Um, you know. >> Okay. So, 591 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,680 according to the property maintenance code, 592 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:41,640 bedrooms are what as we mentioned. Okay. 50 593 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:49,680 and overcrowding dwelling units shall not be 594 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:55,040 occupied by more occupants and committed by the minimum area requirements table 595 00:49:52,240 --> 00:50:04,319 44. So it has a living room 596 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:07,920 space for one to two occupants should be 120 square ft 597 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:14,800 3 to 5 should be 126 or more 598 00:50:12,079 --> 00:50:21,680 dining room. There's no requirement. I guess you could eat on the couch. 599 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:30,800 And um 3 to five, 80, six or more per 100. So if you're 600 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:36,000 saying that uh efficiency unit okay nothing would prohibit an 601 00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:43,119 efficiency a unit occupied by not more than one 602 00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:52,400 occupant so have a minimum clear for area of 120 square ft. If you want two 603 00:50:48,319 --> 00:50:59,359 occasions, the minimum has to be 220 square ft. Okay. A 604 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:07,599 unit occupied by three shall have a minimum clear area of 320 square. 605 00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:12,480 So for four or 400, it seems to be going up into increments of 100. 606 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:18,400 » So I would say that they would have at least three and 400. 607 00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:24,520 that help. That's what we would go on when we were 608 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,520 rent certificate. 609 00:51:27,359 --> 00:51:34,160 And it's always good to think about all the extremes, right, of of ways that it 610 00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:38,240 could potentially be negative or or otherwise. Um, but at the same time, you 611 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:43,920 know, we need to make sure we're not thinking that, oh, every ADU is going to 612 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:47,440 end up having five individual adults living in it and all of a sudden we're 613 00:51:45,359 --> 00:51:52,160 going to be inundated with all of these extreme versions, right? Like, yeah, it 614 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:56,400 might happen and that's something that then as we continue along, we figure out 615 00:51:55,040 --> 00:52:01,839 what the pain points are and we can adjust things um 616 00:51:59,359 --> 00:52:06,960 as well. So, >> so this this says the maximum number of 617 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:14,720 occupants shall be three for an efficiency unit at 220. 618 00:52:12,319 --> 00:52:19,680 I I will say from a legal perspective, what Mr. Miller had said earlier is 619 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:25,440 correct in that it's always hard sometimes to know where to with the 620 00:52:21,359 --> 00:52:29,359 limits, but it's easier to kind of lessen them and reduce the restrictions 621 00:52:27,839 --> 00:52:33,440 than it is to try and tighten them up later as you know kind of putting it 622 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:38,640 back in the gate after things have already been in place. So I I'm not 623 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:42,640 taking a position on that but I just want make to make sure you kind of keep 624 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:47,200 that in mind as you're looking at these. Um, I think again you want to have a 625 00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:51,680 reasonable basis for putting restrictions in on on anything you're 626 00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:55,920 looking at, but you know, keep that in mind too because I think looking at best 627 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,920 case, worst case scenarios are really important. Sort of see where the 628 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:05,040 extremes are. I always end up dealing with the extremes. 629 00:53:02,559 --> 00:53:09,839 So, you know, just I guess keep that in mind and and you try to do your best. It 630 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:14,160 may need adjustment in the future, but when you have to make those adjustments, 631 00:53:11,359 --> 00:53:17,359 it's easier to to pull back and loosen them up a little bit than it is to 632 00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:22,319 train. And also, right now, how we we've got 633 00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:28,400 the suggestions, right, is that the um the owner has to live on site. So, if 634 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:31,520 there are issues, right, it's that owner is also dealing dealing with it. 635 00:53:30,319 --> 00:53:36,400 Neighbors can talk to the owner and stuff. It's not like it's some corporate 636 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:43,440 entity that's owning this and and faceless, right? So, I think that helps 637 00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:49,280 out if there's any friction as well. >> Is is that in the clarification that 638 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:53,160 that Okay. It has to be a person. Okay. >> Correct. That is one of the 639 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,160 requirements. 640 00:53:53,680 --> 00:54:05,839 Uh, I guess can maybe Trudy or any uh of our real 641 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:14,400 estate folks do does anyone know about the size of a of our smaller homes in 642 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:21,282 the city like our 1940s era smaller homes. Do we know about how big those 643 00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:25,040 are? How many square foot we would call? [clears throat] It was 810 square ft. 644 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:29,839 It's two bedroom 810. 645 00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:32,720 » Was it one floor? Thank you. That I think that's good information, right? I 646 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:37,680 can kind of picture a lot of those houses and kind of picture. Okay. You 647 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:42,319 know what could be considered? 648 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:44,559 » That could easily be Yeah. two adults and two or three kids in the other 649 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:49,599 bedroom, you know. >> Yeah. Is is it is it a twobedroom or is 650 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:55,280 it Uhhuh. Okay. So, >> that's 800 ft. What do you think of a 651 00:54:52,000 --> 00:55:00,880 400 garage trying to stick three, four, five people doesn't work? I mean, you 652 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:05,200 you just told me that, you know, two bedrooms nice little home, but now you 653 00:55:03,839 --> 00:55:09,280 just cut that in half. >> Mhm. 654 00:55:05,839 --> 00:55:12,760 » And you now you have 400 foot garage backup lots. 655 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:20,800 » All right, let's uh we appreciate your input. It's valuable. We just let's uh 656 00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:26,800 can >> No, it's valuable input. 657 00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:31,200 » Yeah. So, let's take this full circle. We So, 658 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:36,319 we're either going to do self-regulating. It's that the rules are 659 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:41,440 already in place to regulate this and maybe there's some personal um practical 660 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:45,839 reasons that it gets regulated so you don't have to stipulate the actual 661 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:52,480 number of occupants. That's one approach. Or the other approach is we do 662 00:55:50,319 --> 00:55:58,640 put some restrictions on it because we can later relax them because if we start 663 00:55:56,079 --> 00:56:03,599 out being completely open, it's going to be more difficult to put restrictions on 664 00:56:00,799 --> 00:56:09,760 it. That's kind of how I'm seeing this. So does anybody have any comments on on 665 00:56:06,799 --> 00:56:14,319 that with respect to occupancy? And I guess it also flows into the size as 666 00:56:11,839 --> 00:56:19,359 well, but you so >> but so I guess I want to understand if 667 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:24,079 you start with a th00and square feet, it's going to be harder to reduce it to 668 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:26,000 800 in my opinion, right? Because you can go. 669 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:30,640 » So so the concern would be that theoretically someone could develop an 670 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:34,720 ADU under the regulations and then when we go to change them, they will be then 671 00:56:32,799 --> 00:56:39,280 legally non-conforming. So they could maintain their increased size that if we 672 00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:44,319 decide that that size is not appropriate then we have allowed for a 673 00:56:42,319 --> 00:56:49,280 non-conformity to be created. Whereas as Lori was saying if we uh tighten the 674 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:53,680 regulations now and then we want to relax them later 675 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:58,000 properties would maintain within conformance with the ordinance at that 676 00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:01,200 point. So, if somebody had a,000 and you changed it to 800 and they sell the 677 00:57:00,319 --> 00:57:06,880 property, >> does the non-conforming, let's say now 678 00:57:03,359 --> 00:57:09,839 all of a sudden that ADU needs to be uh uh renovated, 679 00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:12,559 » but it's non-conforming and it's a thousand square feet. 680 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:16,640 » What happens then? >> So, if you have a non-conforming 681 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:22,400 structure, that non-conformity can be repaired and maintained. Um, it would 682 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:27,520 have to be uh in order for it to to be required to comply with the current 683 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:32,880 ordinance, it would need to be destroyed uh up to 50% over 50% of its replacement 684 00:57:31,119 --> 00:57:38,079 value. So it would have to be essentially burned to the ground, a car 685 00:57:35,599 --> 00:57:40,799 hit it um >> realistically for it to 686 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:46,400 » even if the owner changes >> the change of ownership uh in itself 687 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:48,720 would not uh infringe on any non-conforming rights. 688 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:53,119 » Okay. >> So similar to where we have duplexes, 689 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:56,079 triplexes in our R1 zoning districts and stuff because that 690 00:57:53,760 --> 00:58:00,160 » correct. Yeah. A duplex in a single family zone uh would not lose its 691 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:03,520 non-conforming use as a duplex if you were to sell it. It would be just like 692 00:58:01,359 --> 00:58:08,319 that. Yes. >> All right. Let's try to tighten this up 693 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:15,119 so we can give some direction to staff. So, who is in favor of no restrictions 694 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,680 on occupancy? So, we have 695 00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,000 » it's the self-limiting option. >> Self-limiting. Yeah. 696 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,880 » Or the property. >> Right. Right. Yeah. That that is the 697 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,839 limiting factor. Yeah. >> Yeah. 698 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:31,920 » Okay. Right. So, >> so using the existing regulations as 699 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:37,520 they are, we would not stipulate any further in these ADU regulations as to 700 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:41,119 what occupancy is. We would use the existing regulations as they are. Who's 701 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:45,040 in favor of that? >> I I would Yeah, 702 00:58:43,359 --> 00:58:46,799 » I think I guess what how is that different from the first thing you 703 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:51,280 asked? Sorry, >> it's the same. I was restating it to 704 00:58:49,599 --> 00:58:53,520 make it more clear, but I haven't. That was my intention. 705 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:58,480 » I'm still in favor of Okay. >> All right. So, it sounds like we have a 706 00:58:54,880 --> 00:59:03,520 consensus that we would not regulate the number of occupants specifically in the 707 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:07,599 ADU uh language. 708 00:59:05,359 --> 00:59:11,359 » It would be based on already, >> right? 709 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:17,920 » But this language we would not further clarify it. Okay. So, I think there's 710 00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:20,079 consensus with that. That is strong. I think it's almost unanimous 711 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:26,160 here. >> Just for clarification for me, the ADU 712 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:33,119 is not a rental. It's for mom and dad 713 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:39,520 company coming or whatever. Okay. So, that would not be restricted, 714 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:42,720 » right? Similar to your own house. >> I don't know that we've determined 715 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,119 whether or not it couldn't be a rental yet. 716 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:50,799 » If it's a rental, then it needs to have the same restrictions that every rental 717 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:55,760 has. So if I see mom and dad, you know, if mom and dad need to move in with 718 00:59:52,960 --> 01:00:00,240 their family, you know, and they build an ADU for them to live in, they're 719 00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:07,040 family. They're not paying rent. But as soon as you start getting income, then 720 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:11,359 it falls under the occupancy per whatever you said 7 whatever that. 721 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:15,839 » So we're still consistent with we don't need to add further clarification in the 722 01:00:13,839 --> 01:00:20,480 ADU language. >> It's self-regulating. Does it need to 723 01:00:18,319 --> 01:00:24,799 say something that if it's a rental, it will follow that requirement? I think 724 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:30,079 » why would family not follow that? If you don't have an ADU now and you come to me 725 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:34,880 with building permits to build an ADU, whether it's for your mom or for rental, 726 01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:38,240 you're going to give me building plans and I'm still going to calculate how 727 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,400 many occupants can go in there based on square footage. 728 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,920 » Okay, perfect. >> New home. 729 01:00:40,799 --> 01:00:45,920 » That's fine. Yeah, that's >> see because what I hear is that 730 01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:51,200 » um >> like we would get a set of plans and 731 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:57,119 let's say it's 400 square feet >> and my sister who just left her husband 732 01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:01,680 and four kids want to move in there. We would not be able to stop that. There 733 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:04,160 would be five people in that 400 square feet 734 01:01:03,119 --> 01:01:09,760 » because it's family. >> Because it's family 735 01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:11,760 » unless you stay in ADU as specific. Correct. 736 01:01:10,079 --> 01:01:15,359 » Yeah. There's no enforcement. I mean, I don't go door to door and knock and say, 737 01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,880 "Kathy, I put eight occupants. How many people do you have in your house?" 738 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,040 » Yeah. >> But if they have a rental certificate 739 01:01:18,319 --> 01:01:26,240 and it's an ADU, then they then it would be enforced. 740 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:31,839 » But I just want you to understand how we're looking at that. 741 01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:36,640 » So, do you feel that it [clears throat] should be regulated when it's an ADU for 742 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:44,240 any occupant regardless of whether it's rental or family? I would want you to 743 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:48,000 consider that if it's a garage size being converted, which is about 400 744 01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,280 square ft. >> Yeah. 745 01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:58,240 » Okay. Would you be comfortable with your neighbor having a family of five people 746 01:01:54,559 --> 01:02:01,760 living in that garage? >> I think that's up to them. Under the 747 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:05,119 current regulations, they would be able to without further restrictions. 748 01:02:04,559 --> 01:02:08,640 » Yes. >> Okay. 749 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:12,799 » If it's not a rental, if you're Now we it's an ADU. We don't have them. 750 01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:17,760 » But and no, Kathy, I don't see enforcement 751 01:02:14,799 --> 01:02:21,599 happening for ADUs that are just for family. I I that would be very hard for 752 01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:26,000 us to do >> to keep track of how many people are 753 01:02:23,839 --> 01:02:32,240 living in every single ADU. >> Unless it's stated like no more than 754 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:36,839 four or something. >> Otherwise, we would not. Okay. 755 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:46,400 All right. So, we're still in the same position. No further language, correct? 756 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:51,200 With respect to occupancy in the ADU language, no further specification for 757 01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:54,200 the number of occupants. >> Agreed. 758 01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:05,359 We have Okay, let's go back to size and get that lined up as well. We're still 759 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:10,640 toying with 400 to a thousand or up to a thousand. What's our thoughts on that? 760 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:15,280 It's >> no greater than a thousand or the floor 761 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:21,359 floor area of the primary dwelling unit. I think that will restrict it adequately 762 01:03:19,359 --> 01:03:25,440 from my perspective. I'm not going to have a small home and 763 01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:29,839 add a 1,000 square foot. We're not going to 764 01:03:27,119 --> 01:03:33,440 have an 810 foot square foot home and add a 1,00. 765 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:38,640 I think it's going to kind of self-regulate, especially if we have the 766 01:03:35,839 --> 01:03:47,039 other regulations to to come into play, setbacks, yet lock coverage. Um, 767 01:03:43,359 --> 01:03:53,440 I'm still comfortable with 400 to 1,000. If uh if I think the planning commission 768 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:58,720 was more comfortable with 400 and 800 with us to reconsider that in the 769 01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:03,280 future, I could support that as well. >> What's the thinking behind a minimum at 770 01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:10,559 400? >> I think 400, right? We want to provide 771 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:13,880 a a unit, an accessory dwelling unit that has 772 01:04:14,079 --> 01:04:18,880 all the things that all the requirements that we're going to have. It's going to 773 01:04:17,119 --> 01:04:22,640 have bedrooms. It's going to have cooking and food storage facilities. 774 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:26,640 It's going to have a bathroom. Uh, you know, we're seeing language that it's 775 01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:33,359 going to have its own standalone HVAC unit and electrical panel access. And 776 01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:39,400 I think that's to me that's a more appropriate size 777 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,400 to support that. 778 01:04:39,599 --> 01:04:47,839 And I I brought that up before in the sense that all those requirements 779 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:52,240 are it's kind of similar to the the the maximum people requirement where where 780 01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:57,200 things that might self- select it anyways. Um, and there seemed to be 781 01:04:54,880 --> 01:05:01,520 consensus that it'll it'll be roughly 400 ft probably as a minimum anyways. 782 01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:05,920 So, I don't I don't think we need to put a minimum, but I think 400 is not too 783 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:10,319 large of a of a minimum. So, I I'm fine with 784 01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:13,599 it >> and I could be comfortable with a 785 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:18,160 slightly smaller number. >> To me, I was just wondering does it have 786 01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:23,839 do you need a number at all? Again, we have in our codes minimum size living 787 01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:28,160 room for people, minimum size bedrooms, you know, so we already have minimum 788 01:05:26,319 --> 01:05:33,520 square footages in here for you to occupy it anyway. Um, so to just throw 789 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:40,079 an arbitrary number out there like 400. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, I 790 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:46,720 just it's probably not necessary at all if we already have minimums for you to 791 01:05:42,559 --> 01:05:53,599 even build and live inside of it. I think the one thing is that um it does 792 01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:55,520 maybe help a person that doesn't have that knowledge 793 01:05:55,039 --> 01:06:01,520 » sure >> understand that you have to have a space 794 01:05:58,319 --> 01:06:09,760 that's occupiable that you can't move into um you know a 6 by8 shed in your 795 01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:14,000 backyard and say it's a house um unless you're on you know one of those shows 796 01:06:13,275 --> 01:06:18,559 [laughter] they do that but Um, 797 01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:23,599 » so I think I think it helps people that may not have the background to at least 798 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:27,599 get a basis of what they're getting into if they want to develop an ADU that it 799 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:31,520 needs this square footage. And if they look at it like, okay, an 80, you know, 800 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:36,079 anytime you do construction now, is it $300 a square foot? Okay, if I need a 801 01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:40,400 400 square foot, this is what I'm going to be investing. Is this worth my time 802 01:06:38,559 --> 01:06:45,119 and effort? I think it gives someone a basis that might not have that knowledge 803 01:06:42,799 --> 01:06:47,200 without having something very, 804 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:50,640 » you know, and that might be beneficial to a lot of people to decide if this is 805 01:06:49,119 --> 01:06:55,119 even in the realm of something they would want to consider. 806 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:58,240 » Not to mention that other cities have have put in put in a 807 01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:04,559 » Yeah, >> I'm not opposed to the idea of making it 808 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:08,880 a little bit smaller and then increasing it later if that makes sense. 809 01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:12,160 » Yeah, I'm still having heart over >> making it bigger. Increasing it later 810 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:15,920 would make it more restrictive. >> Okay. The other way. So we like we're if 811 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,520 we start with 400 now and >> right 812 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:21,520 » right we're hearing back from the city officials like oh man we're getting 813 01:07:19,039 --> 01:07:27,280 these applications and gez the these old garages over here in this part of town 814 01:07:23,359 --> 01:07:32,880 are ah they're only 360 square feet. Oh okay well let's talk about it then it's 815 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:39,760 as we said ah it's real easy to to to go from 360 or to from 400 to 360. 816 01:07:36,079 --> 01:07:44,079 » Yeah. Yeah I agree with that. So that's why I feel I still am having heartburn 817 01:07:41,839 --> 01:07:48,799 over the thousand because if we went to 800 and found that we were just finding 818 01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:54,720 that too many people weren't being able to bill within that square footage you 819 01:07:51,359 --> 01:08:00,640 can raise lowering later when we if we determined the thousand was um you know 820 01:07:58,079 --> 01:08:05,760 too much would be harder. >> So then we created non-conformancies. 821 01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:10,720 » Yeah. the the thousand um maximum of a thousand is still what is that 200 more 822 01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:12,799 than either of the three cities. >> Yeah, 823 01:08:11,599 --> 01:08:19,120 » that's my issue with >> Well, Sus Marie is doesn't have a 824 01:08:16,159 --> 01:08:22,239 » the other two. So, so Paskki is 600. Traverse City is a maximum of 800. 825 01:08:21,759 --> 01:08:28,799 » Yeah. >> And then to St. Marie, no. 826 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:32,640 » Yeah. >> So, in other words, going to 800, I I 827 01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:38,159 think that would be fine. And if we had to increase it, 828 01:08:35,679 --> 01:08:44,582 » I could support 800 with uh future considerations for 829 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:48,239 » No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Right. Sorry. Getting my math 830 01:08:46,719 --> 01:08:52,239 going the wrong way. So if Yeah. If it was Yeah. Yeah. We're allowing it to be 831 01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:57,359 that big. Yeah. I could support 800 in the future if we said we're seeing 832 01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:02,000 applications like gosh this house here and that house there. Boy, a thousand 833 01:08:59,759 --> 01:09:08,159 would have worked a lot better. >> Sounds like we're hearing I'm hearing 834 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:16,319 that we need to put a reduction from a,000 to 800 as the maximum and that 835 01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:23,400 we're okay with a minimum of 400. >> Okay. Yes. All right. 836 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,400 Let's check those off. 837 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:31,920 Let's uh let's talk about renting. short-term 838 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:41,080 rentals 30 days versus three months 839 01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:41,080 thoughts. So I again when I read that 840 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:48,960 I guess I I don't know why we right we're talking about ADU is a use we're 841 01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:51,359 talking about in the R1 district. Is that correct? Don't 842 01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:56,239 » R1 R2 >> correct. be looking at the R1 and R2 843 01:09:54,159 --> 01:10:01,679 districts where short-term rentals are already uh not permitted. 844 01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:05,120 » Um so the kind of point here would just be an additional clarification since it 845 01:10:03,199 --> 01:10:09,360 was such a large concern short-term rentals just putting that directly in 846 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:15,679 the ordinance uh possibly as a future proofing and then specifically with the 847 01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:20,159 three-month minimum lease. Um that possible suggestion uh was raised after 848 01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:24,080 doing the research uh and seeing that these other three communities just so 849 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:28,960 happen to have that same requirement. Um so that's certainly an option we can 850 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:33,199 pursue if we want to. Uh >> what about the water recreation district 851 01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:37,600 where short-term rentals are >> they're already low. But but I mean as 852 01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:42,239 far as an accessory dwelling unit, if I had a a home in the water recreation 853 01:10:40,239 --> 01:10:46,640 district and I wanted to add an accessory dwelling unit. 854 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:51,520 » So the language as presented currently uh only allows them in the R1 and R2 855 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:54,000 districts. Okay. We could expand that to include the water recreation district. 856 01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:59,520 That could be its own separate discussion. Um certainly. But 857 01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:04,080 » are water recreation districts usually considered PUDS? uh pretty much every 858 01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:08,400 use is a PUB in the water recreation >> district. So I think it's not really 859 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:12,719 applicable there, >> but I would just like to say, and I know 860 01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:17,440 I sound like a broken record, um having lived where I lived for over 30 years, 861 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:24,560 um I've witnessed a lot of the 30-day rentals. Um you know, they're 30 days. 862 01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:33,120 Um, and my concern is the whole purpose of this housing is to provide rental 863 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:37,840 housing. It's not to provide three to$4,000 a week for people that build 864 01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:43,520 these and then rent them during the summer months and then look for workers 865 01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:48,960 that come into the area from September through April and then you 866 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:54,880 kick them out. So, I feel very concerned that if we do the 30-day 867 01:11:51,679 --> 01:12:00,239 um and staff knows very well that it's very hard to monitor the 30 days. you 868 01:11:57,679 --> 01:12:10,400 don't have adequate staff to take that on and um and frankly um I feel that the 869 01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:16,719 three month could elim eliminate any of those concerns because you would have to 870 01:12:12,719 --> 01:12:21,040 have a rental agreement signed and um possibly like many of the communities 871 01:12:18,719 --> 01:12:26,400 did and it would eliminate any of those problems associated with the 30-day 872 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:31,120 because I've seen firsthand where I live people go and live in a campground and 873 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:38,080 rent out their homes. They're not helping the housing market. They're 874 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:44,640 providing um you know um a place for someone to temporarily lodge that wants 875 01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:50,640 to be here during you know the most um you know nicest part of the year. And um 876 01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:56,560 so that's my concern that if we're truly trying to solve a problem and we want to 877 01:12:53,440 --> 01:13:03,040 provide more housing opportunities um then we really need to think about 878 01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:10,640 that the 30-day opens it up to an income generating temporary housing on a 30-day 879 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:16,480 basis or providing a place for people that want to be by the beach to house on 880 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:19,760 a 30-day basis or less. All right. So, 881 01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:24,320 » but let's get a consensus on short-term rentals. Which are the thoughts 882 01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:28,800 is let's just get that off. >> Well, sure. As presented, I agree. Okay. 883 01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:33,040 I'm sorry. Yeah. 30-day rentals. >> I I support restricting short-term 884 01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:36,159 rentals in for 885 01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:38,159 » 30-day rentals are off the table. We'd like to get that 886 01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:40,800 » under less than 30 days. >> Less than 887 01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:43,280 » under 30. >> But okay. 888 01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:46,880 » 30 opens it up to everything. >> Yeah. But but at least initially it 889 01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:51,600 sounds like >> well right now 30 or more is one. 890 01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:56,880 » Yes. So the language presents it as a minimum 30-day rental. Do we feel it 891 01:13:53,840 --> 01:14:03,280 appropriate to increase that to possibly the three month minimum uh lease that 892 01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:06,560 other communities have or some other uh >> measurement [clears throat] of time? 893 01:14:04,719 --> 01:14:10,480 » I think three maybe even six months. >> Yeah. Agree. because we we like to be 894 01:14:08,719 --> 01:14:15,600 long-term rentals, I think, largely. Whereas there's plenty of seasonal 895 01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:20,480 rentals already. Um I don't know how easy if that's legal or um run into 896 01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,120 issues with with yeah month-to-month rentals obviously just like 897 01:14:22,566 --> 01:14:27,840 [clears throat] for normal non- vacationers, but 898 01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:32,159 » once again, if you start high, you can go you can ease it down some point in 899 01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:36,480 the future. >> There's always a reference to 30 days. 900 01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:40,719 It's actually well it's a month but the short-term rentals are defined as 901 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:46,320 periods of less than a month. Okay. >> So um I do need to double check on the 902 01:14:44,480 --> 01:14:51,120 legal aspects of it. I know when they adopt the short-term rental ordinance 903 01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:57,440 before I started representing the city there was a reason it was and I think it 904 01:14:53,920 --> 01:15:02,320 tied into month rentals and how rental laws work. Um, 905 01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:09,440 I I'll have to look into that more just to make sure that we'd be okay with 906 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:14,320 having something beyond that. I So, if other communities are able to do three 907 01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:18,560 months, why would St. Joseph not be able to require a three-month minimum? 908 01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,560 » Um, I don't rely on other people's research. 909 01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:24,159 » Okay. [laughter] >> But, but is it I was thinking statewide 910 01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:28,159 that it's a state. >> It may be perfectly fine. I just I I 911 01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:32,239 would feel better to independently look at that, verify it, and tell you, "Yes, 912 01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:34,880 I think you're you're good with that." So 913 01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:37,360 » So I guess we have to pause on that until that's 914 01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:41,199 » Well, I think we can discuss consideration and attorney Schmidt could 915 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:43,600 get back to us to go, "Yeah, what you talked about 916 01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:48,760 » that quickly." So >> it probably is fine. They just want to 917 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:48,760 verify. 918 01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:55,280 » Uh well, what do we think would be an appropriate duration for this concern? 919 01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:59,520 So, the three-month, the one thing about a three-month I thought of is let's say 920 01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:03,360 there's a student that's in college somewhere and they take an internship at 921 01:16:01,679 --> 01:16:08,560 Whirlpool or somewhere >> for the summer months. The three-month 922 01:16:05,199 --> 01:16:12,000 accommodates them. Students don't have money to pay six months of rent when 923 01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:15,520 they stay somewhere three months. That's the only thing about the three-month. I 924 01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:22,480 like the three-month personally because of that because I thought it might um 925 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:26,560 you know open the area to accommodating summer interns that are from a different 926 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:29,920 area. That's >> traveling nurses. 927 01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:34,000 » Traveling nurses. Yeah. All of that type of thing. That was the three-month 928 01:16:31,199 --> 01:16:37,760 because typically, you know, um you know, we had several interns at our 929 01:16:35,679 --> 01:16:41,280 office for the summer and some were fortunate to be from the area and could 930 01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:46,000 live at home, but it would be nice to not burden them with paying three months 931 01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:50,000 of additional rent and or making them sublet, but if you do all the legal 932 01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:54,560 things where you want the things signed and all that, it might make it more 933 01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:59,920 difficult for them. So, I I I like the idea of three month versus 30-day plus 934 01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:04,080 because of the concerns about the, you know, the turning it over all the time 935 01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:08,880 in the summer. Um, >> all right. So, it's sounds like we have 936 01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:10,960 a consensus that three months, if Lori finds that it is 937 01:17:10,239 --> 01:17:15,440 » acceptable, >> legal to do that, let's put that 938 01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:19,960 restriction in. Okay, let's All right, let's move on to parking. 939 01:17:20,728 --> 01:17:28,080 » [laughter] >> Uh 940 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:33,360 » we're proposing one additional space. Uh is that enough? Where's that space? And 941 01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:40,320 we've got a lot of park a lot of streets that you can't even park overnight. So 942 01:17:37,679 --> 01:17:45,040 how do we how do we accommodate this? Is it driveway? 943 01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:51,600 I there's all kinds of discussions as to however currently managed. Correct. If I 944 01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:57,199 have a home and it's required to have two parking spaces, right, the city has 945 01:17:53,520 --> 01:18:02,320 to go, where are your parking spaces? >> And each dwelling is required to have 946 01:18:00,719 --> 01:18:06,000 two. >> Yeah. 947 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:11,280 » So, having them have one would be lesser than that. Um, 948 01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:17,760 but on the smaller square footage, the minimum 400, it could go by square 949 01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:22,719 footage. If you build 400, you'll get one. If you build beyond that, 950 01:18:20,159 --> 01:18:25,760 depending, you know, if like you do with the rest of the 951 01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:30,239 ordinance, the square footage is what's the basis for the number of spaces um 952 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:36,640 » for commercial like restaurants >> for commut. Yeah. So, you know, like 953 01:18:33,679 --> 01:18:40,960 apartments are 1.25. >> Yeah. So, a single family home requires 954 01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:46,800 just a flat two spaces. We could theoretically expand the amendments uh 955 01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:50,080 to add a brief uh addition to the table in article 18 which has parking 956 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:53,920 requirements to include accessory dwelling units on some sort of basis of 957 01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:59,120 square footage. So it could be one space per 400 square feet. So then if you're 958 01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:04,400 at that threshold uh you only need one space but if you go over uh 959 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:10,480 » ups it to two spaces in that case. I feel that follows what you're already 960 01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:16,199 doing and that it then provides um you know a larger unit may have more people 961 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,199 in it. 962 01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:24,080 » So from my clarification, does a driveway count as a parking space? 963 01:19:22,239 --> 01:19:27,760 » Yeah, long >> Yep. A driveway would count as a parking 964 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:32,719 space. It would have to be some sort of hard surface. Uh whether that's paved 965 01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:36,800 with asphalt or concrete. Uh gravel could qualify. It could also be covered 966 01:19:34,159 --> 01:19:41,120 in a garage or carport. >> So it has to be off streetet 967 01:19:38,719 --> 01:19:44,480 » off streetet parking spaces. Yes, >> you cannot park on the grass on your 968 01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:49,199 front yard. >> Ask me how I know. 969 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:54,239 » Is this one additional over what's already there or one additional over the 970 01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:58,960 the two requirement from the single family? So if you if you if you already 971 01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:04,239 have three or four parking spaces, >> are you good? Uh theoretically, if your 972 01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:07,360 lot is already accommodating four parking spaces and you have a single 973 01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,480 family home, you would not need to add an additional to what's already there. 974 01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:12,719 you would be you would have more than the requirement. I just want to make 975 01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:17,040 sure that's clear in here because this says I want additional space whereas I 976 01:20:15,199 --> 01:20:20,880 know like Paskki specifically said like you can you know count it stacked in 977 01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:24,080 driveways and that kind of stuff and so make sure it's going to be clear that 978 01:20:22,159 --> 01:20:27,520 that's not like oh you build an ADU so you have to add a space 979 01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:32,320 » if you've already got the space >> one additional from the two requirement 980 01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:36,719 that yeah that's perfect the way to >> so I think that's good clarification 981 01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:41,840 » that's a good clarification I think in general I mean in general I'm against 982 01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:44,640 parking minimums as it is. I mean, looking I mean, when I'm walking around 983 01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:48,800 neighborhoods and stuff, there's we have a lot of unutilized parking as it is, 984 01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:52,080 driveways, garages, and that kind of stuff. And I feel like it might be kind 985 01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:57,440 of self- selecting. So, we can't park on the street by now anyways. So, if you 986 01:20:55,120 --> 01:21:01,199 build a unit, say it's going to be for, you know, your elderly parent, are they 987 01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:04,960 going to have a car? Are you going to share a car? Or if it's going to be, 988 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:08,159 yeah, your your adult kid who lives in there or an intern, maybe they're there 989 01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:13,040 for the summer. like there's plenty of people who don't need a car, so why do 990 01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:17,840 we need to force a parking spot? Now, if it's going to be you're building an ADU 991 01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:22,000 and um you don't provide a parking space, well then if someone's renting it 992 01:21:20,239 --> 01:21:25,520 and they need a parking space, they're not going to rent it from you, right? 993 01:21:24,239 --> 01:21:30,640 So, I I feel like it might be kind of self- selecting. Like, if I were to go 994 01:21:28,239 --> 01:21:33,600 move out of my place and live in ADU, I have a bike. I just bike around. I'm 995 01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:38,719 fortunate to have family in town, too. If I need a car, I can borrow a car. but 996 01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:44,719 I don't need a parking space. So, >> I think uh having seen um what happened 997 01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:48,960 early on when there were weekly rentals that didn't require any spaces and the 998 01:21:46,719 --> 01:21:54,480 burden it caused for the neighbors, I think people would be up in arms if we 999 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:57,679 approved an ADU with not requiring the adequate number of spaces because of 1000 01:21:56,320 --> 01:22:03,040 what's already happened in this community and you know in the past um 1001 01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:09,199 » just on the on the weekends. No, there are there are several grandfathered in 1002 01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:14,880 um weekly rentals that were there before the parking space minimum was enforced 1003 01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:18,719 or required. I shouldn't use the word enforced. And um so they're 1004 01:22:17,199 --> 01:22:22,639 grandfathered in and they have no parking and it's very burdensome to the 1005 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:27,600 neighbors and um >> I guess my clarification 1006 01:22:24,159 --> 01:22:33,280 » to keep the the you have you know one required beyond the two or the dwelling 1007 01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:39,199 unit. My clarification on that would be where where you're indicating that we've 1008 01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:42,719 had issues in the past. Is that because they're parking in the neighbor's spots 1009 01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:45,679 or parking on the street when when it's illegal to park on the street or when 1010 01:22:44,639 --> 01:22:50,159 when is it the issue? >> It was a combination of things. Probably 1011 01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:54,800 council can address it more, but we we you know, we've had numerous problems 1012 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:59,199 with um no, you know, that these units are rented out and there's no parking 1013 01:22:57,199 --> 01:23:03,040 associated with them and so it's caused burdens for people. 1014 01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:07,600 Oh, so I guess I'm still not clear what the 1015 01:23:04,480 --> 01:23:10,719 burden is when like during the week you can't park on the street. So if they're 1016 01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:14,800 renting it during the week, where where are they park? Are they parking the 1017 01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:20,000 neighbor spots or what? >> It's already limited right now as it is 1018 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:23,199 » parking on on the street, you know, during the day 1019 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:30,320 » illegally. Oh, and that overnight. Okay. like um uh that had an alley, they would 1020 01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:35,360 park in the alley or on neighbors, you know, property a little more. 1021 01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:38,960 You know, they're being Yeah. encroached. Parking 1022 01:23:37,199 --> 01:23:43,840 » is an issue sometimes. >> Some sometimes it is. 1023 01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:50,639 » It is, but that's it. It was a lot of um on street parking and and kind of the 1024 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:54,639 traffic associated with that, but it added to what was on the street 1025 01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:58,639 already. And so that was where a lot of complaints were. Sometimes it was 1026 01:23:56,159 --> 01:24:04,480 encroachment on the neighbors property or you know 1027 01:24:01,199 --> 01:24:08,400 parking over driveways, sidewalks that it kind of runs the gamut, but um 1028 01:24:06,159 --> 01:24:12,320 » but then they would just be you could call enforcement and get them ticketed 1029 01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:15,120 or whatever. um 1030 01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:20,080 » do not have enforcement. >> Well, [laughter] things like that. 1031 01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:24,000 » I know. >> Um but you know, even if there is that 1032 01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:26,080 enforcement angle of it, it creates a burden for the city. 1033 01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:31,760 » Yeah. >> I I support at least one additional 1034 01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:36,159 required space. Um 1035 01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:41,840 again I think it it relieves a lot of burden on residents and I think city 1036 01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:48,000 resources in some situations. Some parts of the city some areas it's not a 1037 01:24:44,639 --> 01:24:52,719 problem in others it it does create a problem and I don't want to create more 1038 01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:57,120 tension and I guess this could be another example of maybe there's an 1039 01:24:55,120 --> 01:25:02,560 opportunity to relax a requirement in the future if we felt it was 1040 01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:07,199 unnecessary. So if we required a certain amount of additional parking and we 1041 01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:10,080 found that that wasn't necessary in the future, we could possibly remove that 1042 01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:15,199 requirement. >> I guess I my other thought on that too 1043 01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:19,120 is you know yes if if everyone on your block all built an ADU and there was 1044 01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:26,920 they didn't provide any additional parking like that could obviously be an 1045 01:25:21,199 --> 01:25:26,920 issue. You got one house per block. 1046 01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:31,600 You know how much is that actually impacting parking? 1047 01:25:31,329 --> 01:25:35,199 » [cough] >> And again, especially depending on who's 1048 01:25:33,199 --> 01:25:38,080 living there, right? They may not need a car though when um 1049 01:25:37,224 --> 01:25:42,320 [cough and clears throat] all of a sudden then they're they don't have 1050 01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:47,199 anywhere to park and they have to move their car at night and so then they're 1051 01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:52,719 kind of blocking your, you know, part of your garage in the alley because that's 1052 01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:58,880 the only spot they've got. Um, so I would just say that um I would only 1053 01:25:55,679 --> 01:26:02,880 support having parking included and that after it exceeds a certain square 1054 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:10,000 footage, I would like to follow the ordinance requiresments for square 1055 01:26:05,440 --> 01:26:16,800 footage based parking numbers that but I would only support one minimum space per 1056 01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:22,080 per ADU beyond the two required. So, if someone has four already, they don't 1057 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:26,080 need anymore, but that um one beyond the two required, I I I would feel 1058 01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:31,360 comfortable with that. I don't feel comfortable with eliminating parking 1059 01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:35,440 » in multif family. What's the parking requirement? 1060 01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:37,520 » Um I believe it's two per dwelling unit. I would have to 1061 01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:43,120 » So, for R3 >> Oh, that's right. We should 1062 01:26:40,239 --> 01:26:45,920 » in 1.2 in R3 specifically. Sorry. I was thinking like 1063 01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:51,840 » I just know cuz I use it all the time. >> I was We just discussed this too. Okay. 1064 01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:56,239 » So, what's the issue with you using that as the requirement? 1065 01:26:54,320 --> 01:27:00,719 » What was the requirement again? >> Well, that's an R3 multif family. 1066 01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:03,920 » That's an apartment. >> Understood. 1067 01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:07,199 » Right. So, the single family home is required two spaces. Ordinance as 1068 01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:11,440 presented. We require one additional space if you build it on your single 1069 01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:16,560 family home lot. So, three spaces total. Um it sounds like the other option 1070 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:20,560 that's being considered uh it seems like we're not interested in completely 1071 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:24,800 eliminating parking spaces at least to start. Um the other options on the table 1072 01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:31,040 would be to base it off of the square footage in article 18 uh so that it's 1073 01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:35,040 possibly one space for 400 square feet maybe a fair number. So that way if 1074 01:27:33,679 --> 01:27:37,120 you're on the high end it would require two spaces. 1075 01:27:36,480 --> 01:27:42,000 um >> maybe it's 400 to X number and then over 1076 01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:46,480 that amount then it brings it into the higher number and you guys could figure 1077 01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:51,440 that out based on what you feel occupancy rise those square footages 1078 01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:54,800 might house I know we don't want to say an ADU is multifamily but 1079 01:27:54,239 --> 01:27:58,239 » it is >> it is 1080 01:27:56,080 --> 01:28:02,639 » you know we're we're allowing someone else to live 1081 01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:09,719 » on our property we have those requirements already 1082 01:28:05,199 --> 01:28:09,719 do we need to recreate. 1083 01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:16,560 » But there's not the size requirements that the size restrictions we're talking 1084 01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:20,719 about here, right? We talked about right now we're talking about a maximum of 800 1085 01:28:18,719 --> 01:28:24,239 square ft. I think with that maximum size 1086 01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:30,719 requirement, I'm still comfortable with just requiring one additional 1087 01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:37,840 parking space. Thoughts on this parking space? Let's 1088 01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:45,920 let's uh try to condense this. So, we're we're good with a maximum size of 800 1089 01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:50,880 square ft and we have two um so do we want one space at that maximum or two 1090 01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:56,239 spaces >> for the maximum or do we want no 1091 01:28:53,840 --> 01:29:00,480 restrictions on parking? Those are those are some of the discussions that we've 1092 01:28:58,480 --> 01:29:04,080 had. I hear that we want some restrictions on for the most part a 1093 01:29:03,440 --> 01:29:06,880 parking space. >> I want no restrictions, but I'm good 1094 01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:10,000 with just one. >> Okay. So, [laughter] 1095 01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:14,960 » I'm good with one. >> Up to 800 square feet. What is the 1096 01:29:13,199 --> 01:29:18,320 consensus for the number of parking spaces required? 1097 01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:23,679 » I'm still one. >> I would say one to 600 or 400 to 600 1098 01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:27,440 square feet would be one space and after that would be 1.5. 1099 01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:32,719 How about >> what's.5 of a space? 1100 01:29:29,679 --> 01:29:37,280 » Oh no, no fractions. What do you do with that space? [laughter] 1101 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:40,880 » How about one to 800 and over 800 it's one? It's two. 1102 01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:45,360 » Yeah. [laughter] 1.5 is because you have people work 1103 01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:51,760 nights. You have different shifts and the residents, you know, they they o 1104 01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:56,639 overall you get the average of Okay. That's not one unit, right? Round. 1105 01:29:54,159 --> 01:30:03,360 » Can you answer how many people you think successfully occupy if it was per your 1106 01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:08,239 standards an 800 square foot dwelling unit an ADU how many people do you think 1107 01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,362 will be in there >> well 1108 01:30:08,639 --> 01:30:13,520 » maximum [laughter] 1109 01:30:10,719 --> 01:30:16,239 » maximum typically 10 >> I mean what would you say would roughly 1110 01:30:15,440 --> 01:30:22,159 if you figured >> it says that at 320 is the minimum for 1111 01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:24,960 three people >> that's why I think that after 600 it 1112 01:30:24,159 --> 01:30:28,639 needs to go up to >> but you're looking at just maximum imum, 1113 01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:33,440 not typical. So, if we're looking at an 800 foot unit, right, that's a 1114 01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:37,120 onebedroom typically or whatever, that's two adults, 1115 01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:41,920 » three people. Okay. Yeah. So, two adults and a kid. 1116 01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:44,639 » Um, like right now, my wife and I, two bed, one bath place, and it's it's one 1117 01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:48,800 we share, one car. >> It could be three adults. 1118 01:30:46,719 --> 01:30:54,000 » It could be three adults. And so that's why I think once you get above a certain 1119 01:30:50,719 --> 01:30:56,800 square footage, you need to consider >> the parking space requirement. 1120 01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:00,719 » Why not? >> It also could be one person 1121 01:30:58,239 --> 01:31:05,040 » load instead of square footage. >> Why not occupant load instead of square 1122 01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:12,320 footage? I could build an 800 foot ADU and use 500 square feet of it for my 1123 01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:16,960 home office, an arcade, a gaming room. It could still be a one-bedroom ADU even 1124 01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:20,880 with 800 square feet. And then you're telling me I need two parking spaces. 1125 01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:24,320 » So what if we made it based on bedrooms? Then that's a really 1126 01:31:22,239 --> 01:31:28,400 » was occupant load. If you've got three, you get one. If you're over three, you 1127 01:31:26,159 --> 01:31:31,120 need I would probably >> square footage. 1128 01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:36,159 » Sorry. I would advise against occupant load because that if they rent it for 1129 01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:39,760 six months and then a new renter comes in, it's going to 1130 01:31:37,840 --> 01:31:42,000 » it's going to be an how do you track that 1131 01:31:40,239 --> 01:31:46,480 » load stays the same? The max >> I guess I guess the maximum 1132 01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:49,360 » would be your permit, right? All right. >> I'm telling you, you can have four 1133 01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:54,320 people in there. I don't care if you rent it to one or two or three. I've 1134 01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:59,360 told you you could have four. And that's what I determine you're parking on is 1135 01:31:56,480 --> 01:32:01,120 the maximum occupant load, not who's physically in there. 1136 01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:09,760 » Yeah. I think >> actually when we do rental inspections, 1137 01:32:04,480 --> 01:32:16,719 I do ask the landlord, okay, based on this, you qualify for eight people. 1138 01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:23,040 Okay. the landlord can say I don't want more than six. 1139 01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:27,120 » Okay? Because I always did that because being you know 10 rental units and stuff 1140 01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:32,560 there were it was my property and I could decide how many people I want to 1141 01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:37,679 rent to. Now even though I could rent to more we always do and I just want to 1142 01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:43,760 make that clear. We always do ask the landlord how many do you want to rent? 1143 01:32:41,679 --> 01:32:47,120 » So there is a little that we could say, "Yeah, you couldn't have 10 people in 1144 01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:52,239 here." And the landlord is like, "Oh my god, I want 10 people in here. I want to 1145 01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:55,120 only rent to six." >> So, 1146 01:32:52,800 --> 01:33:00,639 » yeah, I I will say the ordinance as it is currently, pretty much every use is 1147 01:32:58,400 --> 01:33:04,239 based off of square footage except for housing in which it's based on the 1148 01:33:02,639 --> 01:33:07,840 number of dwelling units. In the case of multif family, it's one and a quarter 1149 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:12,719 per dwelling unit. For single and two family homes, it's two per dwelling 1150 01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:19,199 unit. Um, I would feel more comfortable tying it to either square footage 1151 01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:22,000 » or or number of dwelling units um because it would just be more consistent 1152 01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:25,520 with the ordinance. And then occupant load that that's a building code thing. 1153 01:33:24,080 --> 01:33:29,199 It's not like within the zoning ordinance. So, you'd be tying together 1154 01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:33,360 two separate ordinances in order to calculate your parking requirements. It 1155 01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:35,920 just becomes very muddied. Um, I would say 1156 01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:41,280 » if we're if we're looking at also in comparison to the other compared some 1157 01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:46,000 cities here, there's a none and just one. None of those are tied to square 1158 01:33:43,679 --> 01:33:49,679 footage. >> I would tie it to dwelling. 1159 01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:54,000 » Yeah, they can just keep it simple. Just do one and that alleviates some of the 1160 01:33:52,480 --> 01:33:57,920 concern with parking, but we're not being too restrictive. 1161 01:33:56,000 --> 01:34:07,760 » Okay. Keep it simple. >> A dwelling unit. An ADU is one dwelling 1162 01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:12,960 unit. Okay, thank you. So, we're down to we're going to have multiple spaces 1163 01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:18,400 based on square footage or up to 800 square ft, which is the maximum that 1164 01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:25,280 we're um considering here. Only requires one parking space. What's 1165 01:34:22,480 --> 01:34:29,760 Mr. Smith, where are you at with this? and more probably more aligned with 1166 01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:34,960 Kathy on this like a four to six is one six to eight is two you know Kathy 1167 01:34:32,719 --> 01:34:38,239 mentioned earlier about being neighborly with this whole thing and I think that 1168 01:34:36,719 --> 01:34:43,920 probably aligns more with that but I could be 1169 01:34:40,080 --> 01:34:46,480 convinced either way on that set on it >> miss 1170 01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:52,159 » yeah I I can go either way too I think about parking and being neighborly that 1171 01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:58,000 the one thing that is good about this is that it has to be owner occupied And 1172 01:34:55,199 --> 01:35:02,639 that's different than, you know, a weekly rental where someone lives in 1173 01:35:00,159 --> 01:35:05,440 Chicago and is renting it. >> I I would hope 1174 01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:08,159 » a weekly rental is supposed to have someone 1175 01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:12,719 » a local agent. >> Locally agent, but we all know how 1176 01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:14,719 » we know how that goes. Exactly. >> I I could be convinced either way as 1177 01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,239 well. >> Well, we're going to have to make a 1178 01:35:15,679 --> 01:35:22,800 decision here. So [laughter] So Mr. Herbert, where where are you at with 1179 01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:27,199 this um one space? Particularly also since you owner is gonna be on site. So 1180 01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:31,440 be neighborly. You can talk to your neighbor and figure it out. 1181 01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:36,000 » Okay, Mr. >> I support one space. Yep. There's always 1182 01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:38,639 those extremes that are possible and can be out there. I I support one additional 1183 01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:41,120 space. >> Rice. Okay, Kathy, 1184 01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:46,719 » you already know how I feel. >> Okay. All right. So, um, we've already 1185 01:35:44,159 --> 01:35:49,960 got a majority of people saying one up to 800. 1186 01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:58,000 I think that covers everything that has to 1187 01:35:56,080 --> 01:36:02,320 » that covers all of my points. There is the comment uh from Commissioner Eert 1188 01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:06,960 who couldn't be here tonight regarding conditional versus special use permit. 1189 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:10,000 So currently we have it set up as a conditional use permit where it would be 1190 01:36:08,480 --> 01:36:14,960 reviewed by staff to make sure all these standards are met. Uh they pay a $100 1191 01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:19,760 fee for our current fee schedule. a special use would require them to go 1192 01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:22,080 before you all um for a review. They would additionally be look you would 1193 01:36:20,880 --> 01:36:28,159 additionally be looking at the special use standards um which are uh subjective 1194 01:36:26,239 --> 01:36:32,000 in nature. We can kind of get into them specifically if we want. Um but 1195 01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:35,440 essentially you'd be looking at it matching the character of the area being 1196 01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:40,320 in line with the goals of the master plan. Um it would be a public hearing so 1197 01:36:38,239 --> 01:36:43,679 public comment would be taken. Uh we'd have to do noticing. Uh and then you 1198 01:36:42,480 --> 01:36:46,159 would submit a recommendation to the city commission who would also be 1199 01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:49,840 looking at those standards and your recommendation 1200 01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:52,239 » each and every time someone applied >> each and every time someone applied for 1201 01:36:51,679 --> 01:36:54,800 ADU. >> So 1202 01:36:53,600 --> 01:37:02,800 » Miss Bers, >> so um I have mixed feelings. One is that 1203 01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:08,560 we love when we have the general public attend and hopefully we can hear all 1204 01:37:05,679 --> 01:37:14,639 your thoughts in a few minutes. Um, and so there may be situations where it's 1205 01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:21,360 just if it is only a conditional use and the neighbors have no ability to voice 1206 01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:26,560 concerns about certain things, um, you know, you're not you're not going to 1207 01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:34,159 have that insight. um you know so I think I like the idea of the special use 1208 01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:41,119 um because it then allows for um the mindset of you know if the 1209 01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:46,719 current garage is somehow grandfathered in and it's a couple feet away from this 1210 01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:50,000 other property and you know and they're concerned about when they try to back 1211 01:37:48,159 --> 01:37:54,000 out they have limited sight lines already and everything. That's stuff you 1212 01:37:51,679 --> 01:37:59,840 would maybe want to know to consider, but it doesn't in essence eliminate them 1213 01:37:56,800 --> 01:38:07,119 being allowed to do it. So, I like the idea of it being a special use to then 1214 01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:12,159 be even more neighborly, but it does add more um cost to the applicant. They 1215 01:38:10,639 --> 01:38:16,639 would be required to come before the planning commission. Would they have to 1216 01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:21,280 to come before the planning commission? They would not have to provide a series 1217 01:38:18,639 --> 01:38:24,560 of drawings and surveys, would they? Or would they? 1218 01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:28,239 » Uh, they'd likely have to supply some form of plot plan. Um, it might not 1219 01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:32,000 necessarily have to be assigned and sealed drawings per se, but it would 1220 01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:34,639 have to be legible to clearly depict that they're meeting all the ordinance 1221 01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:37,679 requirements. I I would typically require that 1222 01:38:35,679 --> 01:38:41,040 » just in a staff review, some form of plan to show that you're meeting all the 1223 01:38:39,119 --> 01:38:46,719 setbacks. And then specifically in regards to if you have some form of 1224 01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:51,440 legally non-conforming structure, >> you can't expand on that structure. Um, 1225 01:38:49,679 --> 01:38:54,960 so if you were to build if you have a non-conforming garage that has 1226 01:38:52,480 --> 01:38:58,880 non-conforming setbacks, I I couldn't with this language, you wouldn't be 1227 01:38:56,800 --> 01:39:02,400 allowed to expand that into an ADU. That would be expanding the non-conforming. 1228 01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:05,760 » Yes. >> Okay. Any thoughts on conditional versus 1229 01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:10,400 special? >> Definitely conditional. I think for 1230 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:14,800 special use, right, we would have to draft criteria. 1231 01:39:13,119 --> 01:39:18,880 » Well, there there are general standards in the ordinance, but there may be 1232 01:39:16,719 --> 01:39:23,119 additional ones that >> So, we'd have to consider that, right? 1233 01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:29,280 We may just have some general standards for a special use, but we may have to 1234 01:39:26,719 --> 01:39:33,760 create other if we went the special use route, we may have to create other 1235 01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:37,199 criteria to review. So I will say we I don't think we 1236 01:39:35,199 --> 01:39:42,000 included it in this sample language based on the feedback we had received 1237 01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:47,199 previous but there's there are subjective criteria such as whether or 1238 01:39:44,239 --> 01:39:52,400 not you want the ADU to match with the current aesthetic of the primary 1239 01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:56,239 dwelling um for a special use in it's the same ordinance section article 11 1240 01:39:54,639 --> 01:40:01,440 has the special use standards and the conditional use standards use it would 1241 01:39:58,719 --> 01:40:04,639 essentially be the same format here uh possibly with addition 1242 01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:08,000 We could have those. That's not necessarily required. But then the big 1243 01:40:06,719 --> 01:40:12,760 difference is you'd be looking at the special use standards and it would be a 1244 01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,760 public hearing. 1245 01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:20,400 » Where are you at with that, Eron? >> Uh, so I I support conditional use. 1246 01:40:17,679 --> 01:40:25,760 Okay. uh if someone you know you talked about those those other standards if 1247 01:40:22,719 --> 01:40:30,480 someone disagreed with the city's decision it was say it was a condition a 1248 01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:35,119 conditional use said no I don't think that you know it doesn't match this part 1249 01:40:33,679 --> 01:40:40,159 you know it's not close enough to how everything else looks if if you 1250 01:40:38,159 --> 01:40:44,480 disagreed with them what's their course of action after that 1251 01:40:41,679 --> 01:40:48,400 » um I you could theoretically appeal um I I forget the exact appeal process if you 1252 01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:53,360 aren't the applicant Um, but the applicant after they're 1253 01:40:50,159 --> 01:40:56,800 handed the determination, uh, with the minutes being approved and everything, 1254 01:40:55,040 --> 01:41:01,520 they then have a certain window. I believe it's 30 days to appeal the 1255 01:40:58,639 --> 01:41:07,040 decision in a circuit court. Um, if you are not the applicant, you some sort of 1256 01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:10,320 coalition of neighbors. I I'm not sure what the process is, but I believe they 1257 01:41:08,320 --> 01:41:16,159 could have some form of route of appeal if they were against the decision. 1258 01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:19,679 expanding recently changed to expand a little bit more but yeah 1259 01:41:17,280 --> 01:41:24,480 » it wouldn't be well the the zoning administrator didn't support this 1260 01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:29,040 conditional use but I want to appeal to the planning commission for approval 1261 01:41:26,639 --> 01:41:31,760 » yes so the if they wanted to appeal my administrative decision that would be a 1262 01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:35,440 process through our zoning board of appeals so if they believe I have 1263 01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:38,320 misinterpreted the ordinance and they would like to appeal that have the 1264 01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:42,159 zoning board appeals look at it and read the language and make a determination 1265 01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:45,199 they could certainly do that um the intention with conditional use standards 1266 01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:49,440 is that they are supposed to be clear-cut such that I as a staff member 1267 01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:53,920 am not using my opinion in this I'm looking at 1268 01:41:51,760 --> 01:41:57,040 objective criteria to determine if it you are meeting this setback you're 1269 01:41:55,119 --> 01:42:01,520 meeting this height requirement um you are meeting this square footage limit um 1270 01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:03,280 such that there's no uh >> discretion 1271 01:42:02,239 --> 01:42:09,119 » discretion yeah >> okay understand 1272 01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:13,360 » all right let's give some guidance here um as to whether or not we want to 1273 01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:20,159 request ire special use permit or a conditional use permit. Um 1274 01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:25,920 » do we do you think that the the matching the character of the existing was that 1275 01:42:22,719 --> 01:42:28,960 the only kind of subjective? That would be the only thing that I can 1276 01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:33,040 think of off the top of my head that you may want to add and maybe more better 1277 01:42:31,199 --> 01:42:36,960 applicable through the form of a special use permit because I as staff may not 1278 01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:41,199 feel comfortable making that determination unless we laid out very 1279 01:42:38,880 --> 01:42:45,199 clear criteria such as considering the >> pitch 1280 01:42:42,719 --> 01:42:52,880 removed right if the matching the character of the existing if that wasn't 1281 01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:57,040 part of the criteria for an ADU >> which 1282 01:42:54,639 --> 01:43:00,320 that's a special use permit to >> No, no, no. If that if that wasn't 1283 01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:05,280 required, if that wasn't required and it was purely setbacks and square footage 1284 01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:09,360 and coverage and parking spaces, >> uh, it would just have to meet the codes 1285 01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:12,239 as is. It could be constructed. It wouldn't have to look, 1286 01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:14,080 » but then you would be comfortable as staff to 1287 01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:18,000 » Yeah, I would be comfortable staff reviewing that as long as I'm 1288 01:43:15,199 --> 01:43:25,520 » as a conditional. >> I think right now in the language that 1289 01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:30,159 was presented, I package 12. Um, it's J does talk about a newly constructed 1290 01:43:27,679 --> 01:43:35,440 detached structure shall be constructed with the design and material that only 1291 01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:40,400 consistent with the primary dwelling. >> Yeah. So they would be maintaining a 1292 01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:45,679 material um but it might not be exactly aesthetically uh similar. But if you had 1293 01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:49,920 um for example stucco on the exterior 1294 01:43:48,719 --> 01:43:55,360 » so you know this has kind of come up over different times over the years. 1295 01:43:52,960 --> 01:44:01,119 I'm not particularly a fan of it because it's for the most part taste. I can take 1296 01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:05,600 my single family home right now and paint it any which way long as it's good 1297 01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:11,440 paint and good condition. It can be polka dots and stripes and and right but 1298 01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:17,360 things are go to taste, right? And I think that'll the market will kind of 1299 01:44:14,239 --> 01:44:21,040 dictate well I have this attractive accessory dwelling unit. people people 1300 01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:24,560 are attracted to it and they want to they want to rent it or my family wants 1301 01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:29,119 to live there. >> I don't know. I can go both ways on that 1302 01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:33,679 because you could go the cheap route and plan to have a family member live in it 1303 01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:38,159 and then all your neighbors are upset because aesthetically it doesn't look 1304 01:44:35,679 --> 01:44:43,760 like it belongs. I mean, do you allow like cinder block and things like that 1305 01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:47,679 for a dwelling? is I mean do you have limitations on what they'd be able to do 1306 01:44:45,920 --> 01:44:50,719 if there was no standard >> acceptable building material? 1307 01:44:49,679 --> 01:44:55,679 Absolutely. >> Yes. So maybe what you build to look 1308 01:44:53,040 --> 01:45:00,880 like, you know, a garage that you put a car in might not have the same aesthetic 1309 01:44:57,920 --> 01:45:05,679 appeal that something that all of your neighbors are now 20 foot high up 1310 01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:09,119 looking at. Um so >> it's your land. Don't look at it. 1311 01:45:07,440 --> 01:45:14,320 » I don't know. It's it's I think it's the same as just just our general 1312 01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:17,920 construction requirements, right? We don't require people to have 1313 01:45:16,639 --> 01:45:21,920 » pretty homes and >> Right. But if there's a certain standard 1314 01:45:20,159 --> 01:45:27,920 that's already established on your property, what is the harm in saying it 1315 01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:32,800 should have a similar appearance? >> That also puts the challenge to us to 1316 01:45:30,239 --> 01:45:37,760 review that and go, I think that's close enough or I don't think that's close 1317 01:45:34,480 --> 01:45:43,360 enough. Um, >> and I I can't really think of examples 1318 01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:47,679 where in the city we've really been challenged in changes, either initial 1319 01:45:46,239 --> 01:45:50,159 construction or changes. Yeah, there's some properties that aren't as 1320 01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:54,000 attractive as others, but >> So, Daltton, are you saying if it had 1321 01:45:52,080 --> 01:46:02,400 the requirement that it has to have similar materials to the house that the 1322 01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:07,040 um building department and you alone would not be capable of? 1323 01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:11,360 » Yes. So I guess the planning commission. >> Yeah. To clarify that statement, I as 1324 01:46:08,639 --> 01:46:16,080 staff could review the materials, the pitch of the roof, kind of if we outline 1325 01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:20,560 those like as objective criteria of like how is this looking similar? I could if 1326 01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:24,719 you if it were to say does this match the general character of the home, I 1327 01:46:23,199 --> 01:46:30,040 couldn't really make that determination as staff. So if the wording had 1328 01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:30,040 something 1329 01:46:30,480 --> 01:46:36,960 design and materials generally consistent, it's just that the materials 1330 01:46:34,639 --> 01:46:39,520 are consistent. >> You could address you guys could address 1331 01:46:38,639 --> 01:46:43,119 that. >> I don't want to. As it's written right 1332 01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:47,440 now, are you telling me that I if I have vinyl sighting on my home that when I 1333 01:46:45,360 --> 01:46:49,920 build a garage, I can't build a metal pole bar because the materials are 1334 01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:52,719 different? >> No. What? 1335 01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:56,080 » So So currently what it says is a material generally consistent. So it 1336 01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:57,600 wouldn't >> Sure. 1337 01:46:56,480 --> 01:47:02,800 » Yeah. This is how it's written currently. This isn't a public hearing. 1338 01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:06,880 So it's not like sighting on my house. I can't build a polebar style ADU with 1339 01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:11,920 metal siding because the materials aren't consistent with my home. Even if 1340 01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:15,280 the color matches, the trim matches, >> they're metal and vinyl. I can't do 1341 01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:19,920 that. >> Is that what we're saying based on how 1342 01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:24,880 it's written? Well, so I guess I'm wondering, do you want a 24 foot pole 1343 01:47:22,480 --> 01:47:29,600 barn next door to your house? >> But I could build the 24 Well, 1344 01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:33,520 » not saying this for sure, but I can probably built a 24 foot pole barn as a 1345 01:47:32,639 --> 01:47:35,440 house. >> Yes. 1346 01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:43,199 » But we're not seeing that in in the city. And right, I put some faith into 1347 01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:48,400 our residents and our owners. Yeah. Does does everyone make the nicest 1348 01:47:45,199 --> 01:47:54,159 thing every time? No. But from what I see, things are done within reason. 1349 01:47:52,239 --> 01:47:59,520 Yeah, there's always that option. I I did this addition, this home, this 1350 01:47:56,800 --> 01:48:04,159 change as cheaply and as unattractively as possible. 1351 01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:08,800 » I'm not really seeing that to a level that would bring me concern. Let me ask 1352 01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:15,280 a question. If it's if the initial requirement is conditional use permit 1353 01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:20,159 and I submit a pole barn with aluminum siding, but the rest of my house is 1354 01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:22,960 stucco, what's the procedure then? Special use permit. 1355 01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:26,639 » I can look at the material as a conditional use permit and say this says 1356 01:48:24,639 --> 01:48:30,800 that the material must match and I can say objectively that that does not 1357 01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:37,040 match. If you were to expand that into the general character and make that more 1358 01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:39,679 of a subjective criteria, I I can I cannot make that deter. 1359 01:48:38,000 --> 01:48:43,760 » That's not my question. If I'm the if I'm the applicant, but I want to do a 1360 01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:47,199 metalsighted polebar, >> I I can say no. It must be the same 1361 01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:50,880 material as your home. >> What's what's my next um step? 1362 01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:55,199 » ZBA, right? >> But you could appeal my determination or 1363 01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:57,199 ask for a variance. >> Okay. 1364 01:48:55,679 --> 01:49:01,119 » So, I could ask for a variance. That would be the procedure 1365 01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:03,440 » if I wanted to do this. >> So then yeah. 1366 01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:07,040 » Okay. >> So then if J 1367 01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:11,600 » Now I would I would say that getting a variance on that standing would be a 1368 01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:14,639 very tricky situation because I would be hardressed to say that there's a unique 1369 01:49:13,119 --> 01:49:18,800 circumstance applying to your property. That means you can't put stucco instead 1370 01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:22,320 of metal siding. >> Okay. Um, 1371 01:49:19,679 --> 01:49:27,760 » so the way I mean I don't necessarily think everything you do on your property 1372 01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:33,600 needs to be exactly the same material. You know, you might have field stone on 1373 01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:38,080 one thing and siding on another and, you know, stonework or whatever else. So, 1374 01:49:36,560 --> 01:49:44,000 I'm just trying to understand this better. The way Jay is worded right now, 1375 01:49:40,480 --> 01:49:48,560 the way Jay is worded right now, what would need to be changed to make it 1376 01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:55,360 where you would be comfortable as building officials and zoning to just 1377 01:49:53,440 --> 01:50:00,080 be able to evaluate it? >> Well, so I guess there are a few options 1378 01:49:56,880 --> 01:50:03,199 before us. So, we could eliminate it if we don't feel that that's an appropriate 1379 01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:11,159 thing to be restricting. We could just eliminate that uh item. Uh J. 1380 01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:11,159 One thing 1381 01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:20,080 of rarely do we look at usually dimensional. Okay. It's usually 1382 01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:23,280 dimensional. It's Yeah, I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole because 1383 01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:30,239 we're already kind of within the discussion of conditional versus special 1384 01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:35,040 use permit as is. Um but so what we could is we could adjust it. Um, we 1385 01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:38,320 could remove it and then it would work a bit better. If we don't like the 1386 01:50:36,480 --> 01:50:41,280 material component, we could remove it and then it could be viewed as a 1387 01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:46,800 conditional use permit. If you want it to view more as the character of it to 1388 01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:52,239 match, special use permit may be more appropriate. We could refer to things 1389 01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:57,360 separately as the pitch of the roof. Uh, for example, if you want to maintain uh 1390 01:50:55,440 --> 01:51:01,679 aesthetic across the two, that might be more appropriate for staff to look at. 1391 01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:05,920 Um, it just depends if that's something we really want to hammer down on and 1392 01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:10,560 restrict. >> I I I don't I I don't want to be that I 1393 01:51:09,679 --> 01:51:14,560 personally don't want to be that restrictive. I would prefer it to be 1394 01:51:12,239 --> 01:51:19,760 conditional use. I would prefer that it didn't have the I would like it to to to 1395 01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:24,480 match kind of like it, but I would I don't want that requirement. 1396 01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:29,679 Uh, I think processes can be a challenge as it is 1397 01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:34,880 without it. Let's say it didn't have that and I wanted to put this ADU above 1398 01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:40,080 my garage. The the permitting process for at least as a general citizen, 1399 01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:44,080 there's a lot of anxiety there and you know permitting and getting contractors 1400 01:51:42,320 --> 01:51:50,560 or having the skills and getting that work done. There's a lot there. And to 1401 01:51:46,320 --> 01:51:53,599 add on the special use process, I don't want to go that route. I would 1402 01:51:52,239 --> 01:51:58,719 prefer to go the condition. I would prefer to remove that requirement, make 1403 01:51:55,840 --> 01:52:02,960 it conditional use, have faith in my community and and go that direction. 1404 01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:05,760 » I agree. >> I agree. I 1405 01:52:03,679 --> 01:52:08,719 » I think we have consensus conditional use permit 1406 01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:12,480 permit and >> and eliminating the standard uh J 1407 01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:16,000 » uh which is >> so are you evaluating anything about the 1408 01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:21,040 aesthetic or nothing? >> Uh if we eliminate Jay, it would not be 1409 01:52:18,639 --> 01:52:25,599 evaluating the aesthetic. We evaluate anything pitch of the roof or anything? 1410 01:52:23,360 --> 01:52:28,960 » Uh, nothing. Yes. Or we could change something else if you prefer, but 1411 01:52:27,199 --> 01:52:33,360 » we don't evaluate aesthetics for new home builds as long as it meets code 1412 01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:37,360 » or remodel or just >> materials. Remodel change 1413 01:52:35,599 --> 01:52:41,199 » materials. That might answer the question I'm looking for. Is there 1414 01:52:39,280 --> 01:52:47,119 certain materials that would not meet code but still are building materials? 1415 01:52:43,440 --> 01:52:50,159 » Requiring that fire rated wall. >> Pardon? Would we require the fire rated 1416 01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:53,440 wall? >> I think it would depend on how close it 1417 01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:56,560 is to other structures, right? >> Are there materials you're worried about 1418 01:52:55,199 --> 01:53:00,320 being used? >> No, I'm trying to find out are there 1419 01:52:58,239 --> 01:53:05,760 certain building materials that aren't allowed for an exterior 1420 01:53:03,199 --> 01:53:09,599 like aesthetic or not an aesthetic, but related to what you're is there anything 1421 01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:14,480 that you just don't allow within the city limits to be utilized? No, they can 1422 01:53:12,639 --> 01:53:18,080 utilize any building material that's exterior grade 1423 01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:21,440 » except if it has to be non-com or you know because the wall needs to be fire 1424 01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:26,480 rated. Well, then they have to use certain materials because 1425 01:53:24,320 --> 01:53:31,040 » so right now there's really no standard. So then to incorporate one on the ADU 1426 01:53:29,119 --> 01:53:36,560 would be really restricting for no reason when there's already nothing that 1427 01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:42,159 correct. Okay. >> So eliminate uh J paragraph. Okay. All 1428 01:53:40,880 --> 01:53:47,360 right. So, 1429 01:53:44,159 --> 01:53:51,760 Dalton, have we answered all of your >> uh Yeah, those were all my particular 1430 01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:56,000 questions uh that that I was uncertain of and felt the board uh it would be 1431 01:53:54,080 --> 01:53:59,360 worthy of discussion if there any additional concerns. Uh 1432 01:53:58,000 --> 01:54:01,760 » I have one clarification. >> Yeah. 1433 01:53:59,679 --> 01:54:08,880 » Um for a point C where it's the property owner shall reside in either one. Um, do 1434 01:54:04,480 --> 01:54:13,840 they have to be currently residing to get the permit to build it or if they're 1435 01:54:11,440 --> 01:54:16,560 currently, you know, they permanent residence is elsewhere or they're 1436 01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:20,880 renting out whatever and they want to build an ADU so that they can move in 1437 01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:24,080 and then rent the ADU, like do they have to live there first? 1438 01:54:22,639 --> 01:54:27,599 » That would likely have to be some form of condition of approval. I may have to 1439 01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:31,119 do some research on that before providing a clear answer. 1440 01:54:28,719 --> 01:54:35,119 » Okay. Because I think I saw like there were various examples of either way. I 1441 01:54:33,199 --> 01:54:39,520 think one of the cities you had there kind of maybe kind of spelled that out, 1442 01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:44,560 but um I think we should just make sure we clarify that because 1443 01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:49,679 I I I'm fine with it being that it has to be a primary dwelling, but it would 1444 01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:54,320 be probably you might be useful if if someone just doesn't currently live 1445 01:54:51,040 --> 01:54:58,480 there, but is going to move in after the ADU is built. But 1446 01:54:56,239 --> 01:55:05,599 » I have one more question based on that. So, if the per prime property owner can 1447 01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:11,520 actually live in the ADO, does that mean then their house can then be a rental? 1448 01:55:09,679 --> 01:55:15,599 » Uh, correct. Yes. >> Okay. So, if their house currently isn't 1449 01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:19,520 allowed to be a rental, as soon as you build an ADU and you decide that you 1450 01:55:17,679 --> 01:55:22,560 need to downsize, you can rent out your home property, your house, and live in 1451 01:55:21,599 --> 01:55:26,880 the ADU. >> Why wouldn't their current house not be 1452 01:55:24,719 --> 01:55:29,440 allowed? Do you allow any property to be a rental if they're not currently zoned 1453 01:55:28,639 --> 01:55:33,440 a rental? >> Yeah, if they're in R1. Yeah. 1454 01:55:31,040 --> 01:55:37,199 » Okay. So, in R1, do they have to do anything special? 1455 01:55:34,560 --> 01:55:41,360 » The zoning the zoning ordinance does not restrict uh rentals outside of 1456 01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:46,880 short-term rentals as its own specific use. That's outside of the scope of the 1457 01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:50,159 zoning ordinance. Um, any dwelling unit, single family home could theoretically 1458 01:55:48,719 --> 01:55:53,360 be a rental if they meet those requirements in chapter eight. 1459 01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:58,080 » Yeah. >> Okay. All right. I'm going to ask you 1460 01:55:55,440 --> 01:56:01,840 something afterward on a sidebar. >> Thanks. 1461 01:55:58,639 --> 01:56:06,719 » All right. Commissioners, are we ready to I wanted to get a few more. I had a 1462 01:56:04,639 --> 01:56:09,679 few other side items related to this that I go ahead. 1463 01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:14,080 » Sorry. So, the easy one >> uh in our definitions, accessory 1464 01:56:11,599 --> 01:56:20,159 structure says not for habitation. >> You might need to look at that if that's 1465 01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:26,320 necessary or not. Um, so in the example of a detached garage, 1466 01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:31,159 would we want to have words that says the ADU has to be above the first floor? 1467 01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:39,040 » So you have a detached garage. Okay. Now, now it can be up to 24 feet. 1468 01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:42,880 Well, can the whole thing be do we do we want the whole thing to be able to be an 1469 01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:46,239 ADU? Do we want to say, hey, no, we only want that to be on the second floor. 1470 01:56:45,119 --> 01:56:49,520 Let's say I have >> So, let me say square footage, 1471 01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:52,880 » right? [clears throat] >> Uh I guess yeah, the square footage part 1472 01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:57,440 could could pinch that >> and the parking. 1473 01:56:54,800 --> 01:57:01,679 » So, if they turn their garage into a twotory ADU is what you're saying. 1474 01:56:59,760 --> 01:57:04,560 » Yeah, I guess the size limit would would kind of probably prevent. 1475 01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:08,960 » Yeah, because if their garage is 20 by 20, then they could in essence be a 1476 01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:12,800 twotory because then it would be 800. >> Yeah. So, so yeah, 1477 01:57:11,199 --> 01:57:17,920 » I guess it's something for us to kind of to to think about. I think it's another 1478 01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:21,360 thing that you know that again how how is that going to work unless it's a big 1479 01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:23,840 property that can accommodate additional parking and 1480 01:57:22,239 --> 01:57:28,400 » which exists in the city. I don't want >> additional lot coverage and all of that 1481 01:57:25,840 --> 01:57:32,800 stuff to still be under the maximum. So maybe we don't it's going to that's 1482 01:57:30,239 --> 01:57:37,840 going to regulate by other requirements, right? What what if I have an existing 1483 01:57:35,440 --> 01:57:44,239 detached garage and we that's 14t tall and it's now made 1484 01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:48,880 24 feet tall. >> I mean, if you if you satisfy all the 1485 01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:53,119 other Yeah. setback coverage parking requirements because you because you're 1486 01:57:50,960 --> 01:57:57,360 taking away parking by doing it. Sure. >> You can't make a garage 24t tall. It's 1487 01:57:55,599 --> 01:58:00,639 only if it becomes an ADU. >> That's what I mean. Let's say you have a 1488 01:57:58,560 --> 01:58:04,480 14 foot garage, existing garage, you make it 24 feet tall. Do you are you 1489 01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:07,440 comfortable with people being on both both floors? 1490 01:58:05,599 --> 01:58:11,760 » You can make it 24 feet tall if it's going to house people. 1491 01:58:08,560 --> 01:58:15,119 » Correct. You you make the an ADU. >> Yeah. 1492 01:58:12,639 --> 01:58:18,480 » I'm not strong either way, but I you know, we've talked about that in other 1493 01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:22,239 parts of the city where hey, above the first floor kind of talk, 1494 01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:26,639 » but would that open up another can of worms because if you're only allowed to 1495 01:58:24,159 --> 01:58:29,679 have two dwelling units on a single family lot and now all of a sudden you 1496 01:58:28,560 --> 01:58:34,960 have >> it's one ADU still. It's one ADU, but 1497 01:58:32,320 --> 01:58:39,760 how does that work with if you do like you're basically making it an upper and 1498 01:58:36,960 --> 01:58:44,239 lower kind of townhouse where you do a one unit on the lower level or you say 1499 01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:46,239 only one >> only one? Yeah, it would just be a 1500 01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:52,800 standalone. >> But is it multifamily, 1501 01:58:49,199 --> 01:58:55,280 one unit down, one unit up or is it just one unit? 1502 01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:58,960 » Well, then that's fine because the other wouldn't be right. 1503 01:58:56,719 --> 01:59:01,599 » Yeah. If you were putting two units, you couldn't do that. That's not an ADU. 1504 01:59:00,880 --> 01:59:03,840 » No. >> Yeah. 1505 01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:06,960 » And we're still limited to the height of the principal dwelling, too. So, you're 1506 01:59:05,760 --> 01:59:11,520 not going to be Yeah. >> a 24 that's taller than the single 1507 01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:12,800 » one story in the front or something. >> Okay. 1508 01:59:12,159 --> 01:59:17,599 » So, um >> I think that's fine. 1509 01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:23,520 » So, then let's maybe have it fully internalized. So, let's look the route 1510 01:59:19,520 --> 01:59:28,239 where this ex this accessory structure doesn't exist and it's going to get 1511 01:59:25,360 --> 01:59:30,719 added to create this accessory dwelling unit. 1512 01:59:31,599 --> 01:59:39,199 people might still want an accessory structure. Okay. But we will 1513 01:59:37,520 --> 01:59:45,679 still have that in >> they might want when that becomes 1514 01:59:42,880 --> 01:59:50,560 modified then it becomes an ADU. It's not accessory structure. 1515 01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:56,239 » But how are we are we going to treat it as an accessory structure for setbacks? 1516 01:59:53,599 --> 01:59:59,840 And I think it's still an accessory 1517 01:59:57,440 --> 02:00:02,400 structure that's allowed to be an ADU. >> Okay. So that's how we're going to look 1518 02:00:01,280 --> 02:00:05,760 at it. >> Yes. So it's an accessory structure. It 1519 02:00:04,159 --> 02:00:11,040 has to meet all the requirements of an accessory structure. 1520 02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:16,080 » And then it would also be an accessory >> for zoning purposes. It can be an 1521 02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:21,760 accessory structure for building code. I would not call it that. Accessory 1522 02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:28,000 structures have codes that are applied to them and not to a primary home that 1523 02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:31,760 are much more restrictive. >> Do you think there's additional words we 1524 02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:38,880 might want to consider for >> Let me Let's look into that because um 1525 02:00:36,560 --> 02:00:42,880 our building code doesn't allow you to live an accessory structure unless it's 1526 02:00:41,679 --> 02:00:45,520 used. >> Okay. 1527 02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:50,320 » Because an accessory structure wouldn't have it's a utility. 1528 02:00:48,880 --> 02:00:53,280 » So that sounds like something that maybe staff 1529 02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:57,560 » Yeah. might want to smooth out a little bit. 1530 02:00:54,560 --> 02:00:57,560 » Um, 1531 02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:12,080 and maybe not for big discussion, but I I I think we want the public if this 1532 02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:18,000 becomes something for consideration to try to fully understand what the impact 1533 02:01:14,400 --> 02:01:23,360 of an accessory dwelling unit might be on their property. I would suspect if I 1534 02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:30,080 had an accessory dwelling unit that was a rental that my homestead property tax 1535 02:01:27,199 --> 02:01:35,599 exemption might be affected. I don't know that for a fact, but I think 1536 02:01:33,520 --> 02:01:40,880 there's that possibility that you're paying your taxes and however taxes 1537 02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:46,080 change for a home that someone's going to come and look at that and go 1538 02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:50,719 » some amount of your home is no longer homestead exemption doesn't no longer 1539 02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:53,679 qualifies for the homestead exemption. >> I I don't know that for sure or not, but 1540 02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:58,480 that's something that people might want to find out for sure. Yeah, I would say 1541 02:01:56,719 --> 02:02:03,840 that from like the zoning ordinance standpoint, our here we are making the 1542 02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:08,719 regulations that that would allow it. It's kind of up to we want to make sure 1543 02:02:06,480 --> 02:02:13,520 people like are we obviously want people to be informed like that's not a noble 1544 02:02:10,639 --> 02:02:16,719 goal, but in terms of what what we're doing here is we're creating the 1545 02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:20,639 regulations by which they can pursue this. And it would the onus would kind 1546 02:02:19,040 --> 02:02:25,440 of be on the property owners to make sure they've done their research on 1547 02:02:22,159 --> 02:02:32,000 implications in terms of like taxation. >> I agree. But I I think it would be 1548 02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:37,760 really helpful people to have some way a brochure something for them to kind of 1549 02:02:34,400 --> 02:02:42,960 hey before you take this step if you know if if I'm choosing between doing a 1550 02:02:40,719 --> 02:02:48,960 remodel of my home that fits completely within the zoning to bring in adult 1551 02:02:45,199 --> 02:02:53,199 children or balancing that off of I'm going to take this accessory dwelling 1552 02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:59,280 unit route there. there might be important considerations for a family to 1553 02:02:55,360 --> 02:03:01,599 understand. You know, taxes, permits are kind of hard things [clears throat] to 1554 02:03:00,239 --> 02:03:06,159 get around when you don't work with them every day. And I I think it would be 1555 02:03:04,239 --> 02:03:09,840 really important for the public to to kind of know that if they're they're 1556 02:03:08,320 --> 02:03:14,400 going to bring in grandma and grandpa and well, all I really need to do is get 1557 02:03:12,080 --> 02:03:18,560 a permit to remodel and do these changes to my home that's perfectly within the 1558 02:03:16,239 --> 02:03:22,400 permitting process. Well, maybe I want to do that instead of going the [snorts] 1559 02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:27,280 accessory dwelling unit route. I think that's going to be really important for 1560 02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:30,880 the public if this comes to fruition. >> It's a good point. Thank you. 1561 02:03:29,679 --> 02:03:33,280 » All right, that's all my additional stuff. 1562 02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:37,040 » All right, so we do need to give direction as to whether or not we're 1563 02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:42,159 ready to proceed. So I wonder though, would it be advantageous because we have 1564 02:03:39,920 --> 02:03:47,679 the public here today to get comments from them that may help um you know 1565 02:03:46,239 --> 02:03:55,040 maybe there's some things that we didn't think of and that um I would entertain 1566 02:03:52,719 --> 02:03:59,920 allowing them to speak and maybe give their comments that might assist us and 1567 02:03:57,520 --> 02:04:05,599 we appreciate you all being here. >> All right, so let's uh open the floor up 1568 02:04:03,119 --> 02:04:09,920 to public comment. Is there anybody here that would like to give us some input? 1569 02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:12,920 That is >> an 1570 02:04:17,119 --> 02:04:23,199 » Thank you for doing this. By the way, I wanted to jump up about six times. 1571 02:04:21,119 --> 02:04:28,239 » Okay. So, please state, >> excuse me, please state your name 1572 02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:29,760 » and move the microphone so we can maybe >> There you go. 1573 02:04:28,880 --> 02:04:34,320 » Am I good? >> Yeah. There you go. 1574 02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:38,960 » Okay. to answer um the gentleman's question, there's this wonderful thing 1575 02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:45,440 from Tish Law that tells potential people that want to build ADUs the 1576 02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:52,239 requirements and taxation issues that might face them. Um there's also in 1577 02:04:48,719 --> 02:04:58,000 here, and as a former teacher, I'm going to say y'all haven't done your homework. 1578 02:04:54,320 --> 02:05:03,280 I don't think Grand Rapids, Detroit, Holland, Lancing, and 1579 02:05:00,400 --> 02:05:08,800 Kalamazoo. as far as their thoughts on ADUs and I'd like to share a couple of 1580 02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:15,199 those with you if I could because it has come up in your conversation. 1581 02:05:11,440 --> 02:05:20,560 Grand Rapids um says that ADUs Am I still good? Grand Rapids says that ADUs 1582 02:05:17,679 --> 02:05:27,920 must measure between 400 and 850 square ft and cannot exceed 40% of the primary 1583 02:05:25,199 --> 02:05:32,560 structures floor area. My question during your discussion that 1584 02:05:29,760 --> 02:05:38,960 I got totally lost on is >> isn't there a requirement about the lot 1585 02:05:35,199 --> 02:05:41,840 itself and how much space the structure may take up? 1586 02:05:41,440 --> 02:05:44,239 » Yes. >> Lot coverage. Yes. 1587 02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:48,400 » Okay. >> Correct. District. 1588 02:05:45,599 --> 02:05:51,840 » So let the typically how this works is you're going to give us your 1589 02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:56,159 presentation, give us things to think about and at the end staff can help 1590 02:05:54,239 --> 02:05:59,679 answer some questions. Okay. would help out better here. Okay. 1591 02:05:57,440 --> 02:06:03,599 » So, but that this is helpful. Thank you. >> All right. Detroit's regulatory 1592 02:06:01,760 --> 02:06:08,560 environment reflects a more cautious embrace of ADUs. While attached and 1593 02:06:06,239 --> 02:06:14,080 detached ADUs are permitted, restrictions exist in residential 1594 02:06:10,800 --> 02:06:19,599 districts like R1 and R2 where only pre940 carriage houses are allowed as 1595 02:06:17,199 --> 02:06:25,840 for dwelling purposes. Holland has opted for a narrower ADU 1596 02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:30,880 policy allowing only detached units. These must be smaller than the principal 1597 02:06:27,840 --> 02:06:38,000 dwelling with maximum sizes ranging from 200 to 800 square ft based on lot size. 1598 02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:43,360 Height limits are set at 16 ft for ground level units and 22 ft for 1599 02:06:41,040 --> 02:06:48,719 secondstory structures. Um, and then this had some points from 1600 02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:54,719 Traverse City and Lancing and Kazoo as well. So, um, I think maybe a broader 1601 02:06:52,480 --> 02:07:03,119 picture might help some of those decisions. And my my last comment has to 1602 02:06:58,880 --> 02:07:09,440 do with um the thought process behind this whole thing, which I know you all 1603 02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:17,760 didn't make up, but I bought my home in R1 in a residential area, and I really 1604 02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:26,400 really do not appreciate that changing. uh having a 1-month rental 5 ft over my 1605 02:07:21,440 --> 02:07:33,679 property line does not seem to me to bode well for my enjoyment of my 1606 02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:40,159 property. And when you take away um gosh, I forgot your verbiage on how this 1607 02:07:37,119 --> 02:07:46,000 is assessed when people come to want to do an ADU and you've just said no 1608 02:07:43,599 --> 02:07:52,079 neighbors matter. They they're not notified. They don't get to know 1609 02:07:48,079 --> 02:07:57,040 anything. Just deal with it. So, you've gone from 1610 02:07:54,000 --> 02:08:04,079 residential where when I had my son room and I'm sure 1611 02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:09,599 Trudy remembers all the fun we had, um, everybody was notified and we went 1612 02:08:07,040 --> 02:08:15,040 through the process and then I had to get a variance because I didn't put it 1613 02:08:12,639 --> 02:08:20,159 quite far enough away from the garage. And I understand all that and and that's 1614 02:08:17,679 --> 02:08:27,520 a protective measure for neighbors in neighborhoods, which I think is what we 1615 02:08:24,159 --> 02:08:31,599 as a city want is neighbors in neighborhoods. 1616 02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:39,599 So, I would appreciate it if you consider that and consider that you had 1617 02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:44,239 less than a 1% response. Um, to to go through all this without recommending to 1618 02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:49,360 the city commission that they do some further research or I don't know, put it 1619 02:08:46,560 --> 02:08:56,159 on the ballot. Let people decide is this what you want in your residence or not. 1620 02:08:52,159 --> 02:09:02,280 I I would respectfully suggest that you make that suggestion. Thank you. 1621 02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:02,280 » Thank you. 1622 02:09:07,040 --> 02:09:16,800 » My name is Mark Derry, 171240s Avenue. So I'm just south of the 1623 02:09:12,480 --> 02:09:23,119 park. Okay. And parking. Uh we have a two two unit across the street. 1624 02:09:19,599 --> 02:09:26,320 Grandfather owns it. We believe. Um cars park out there. You can park out there 1625 02:09:24,639 --> 02:09:30,320 all night long. They get a ticket. They don't care. They've taken deliveries in 1626 02:09:28,480 --> 02:09:33,840 the middle of the night for pizza. You know, we got one the other day. They 1627 02:09:31,679 --> 02:09:38,239 arrived at 11:30. They they left the middle of the street around 12:30. Um 1628 02:09:36,560 --> 02:09:44,239 that for some reason they seem to park on our side. I have a garage and Trudy 1629 02:09:41,599 --> 02:09:48,079 can tell you that at 1712 there's a space above it. It was built 1630 02:09:46,000 --> 02:09:52,000 that way that is stubbed in for electrical, plumbing, the whole thing. 1631 02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:56,960 Cecil was the uh building inspector at the time. have not done anything with 1632 02:09:54,159 --> 02:10:02,000 it, but it would be something. If I sold my house, somebody could put a rental 1633 02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:06,639 unit in that garage today. There's a parking place next to it, plus two right 1634 02:10:04,079 --> 02:10:11,840 below it. I would hate to think that somebody would do that to me if I had 1635 02:10:09,360 --> 02:10:18,000 either house on either side of that. You know, I am stunned that this the St. Joe 1636 02:10:14,960 --> 02:10:22,719 City Commission and a group of you have nothing more to do than try to socially 1637 02:10:20,400 --> 02:10:26,560 engineer and worry about what we're calling somehow the disadvantaged 1638 02:10:24,320 --> 02:10:31,199 middle. You know, this this is more about do what's best for this the the 1639 02:10:29,199 --> 02:10:38,000 citizens of St. Joe that that live and work here. I mean, the we are in one of 1640 02:10:34,719 --> 02:10:44,159 the busiest walking streets in town. families, dogs, strollers constantly up 1641 02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:49,520 and down, constantly find that that unit across the street cuz when grandpa's 1642 02:10:45,920 --> 02:10:54,719 gone, it's a party. They they block the sidewalk. People are forced to walk with 1643 02:10:51,840 --> 02:10:59,119 strollers out into the street to get down the block. I would think that's 1644 02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:03,679 only going to get worse with what you're proposing. This isn't going to get 1645 02:11:00,880 --> 02:11:08,960 better. And I again I would hate to think that somebody if I sold that unit 1646 02:11:06,560 --> 02:11:13,440 tomorrow would turn that unit and it's would be perfect. It's met it would meet 1647 02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:19,520 everything that you're looking for. You know the size of it, the siding on it. I 1648 02:11:16,000 --> 02:11:23,679 paid $634 a square for siding if you know building materials at all. It's the 1649 02:11:21,760 --> 02:11:29,440 same siding that's on the uh the golf course at Harbor Shores. You know, 1650 02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:33,520 typical vinyl when I did it was about 85 bucks a square. That's how much more I 1651 02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:38,079 paid. So for somebody to do that to me, to put a unit next to me, that's 1652 02:11:35,920 --> 02:11:42,800 incredible. And if you're telling me that 1% responded and that's what you're 1653 02:11:40,400 --> 02:11:47,840 working on here, that's even more. You know, the I I am, as I sat here and 1654 02:11:45,119 --> 02:11:51,440 listened, I need to get more involved. I can't believe this is the same group 1655 02:11:49,760 --> 02:11:55,360 that that dealt with the parking downtown. You know, I have I have 1656 02:11:53,679 --> 02:11:59,840 breakfast at Thornton's on Friday mornings with the old coaches. when you 1657 02:11:57,840 --> 02:12:03,760 go in there and the parking fiasco was going on. Now I come down here and I'm 1658 02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:08,400 listening to this. I'm asking you not to to to put an end 1659 02:12:06,079 --> 02:12:11,760 to it quickly. I don't think we need more parking, more on the street. I 1660 02:12:10,159 --> 02:12:15,599 don't think we need more people living in garages. 1661 02:12:14,159 --> 02:12:20,400 Okay. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. 1662 02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:23,639 » Anyone else? >> Thank you. 1663 02:12:25,840 --> 02:12:31,599 How you doing? My name is John Pop. I actually is a neighbor neighbor of 1664 02:12:29,360 --> 02:12:38,880 Marks. I live on Forest Avenue also 1700 Forest Avenue. Um I'm here uh for one 1665 02:12:36,320 --> 02:12:42,639 main main reason is safety. What what you guys are proposing to allow happen 1666 02:12:40,639 --> 02:12:47,360 to the city is really going to jeopardize your safety officers both 1667 02:12:44,719 --> 02:12:52,639 police and fire. I did 34 years in the city of Chicago. The worst fire you can 1668 02:12:49,760 --> 02:12:59,040 go to is on the alley. Can't pull your rig down there. Too many electric lines, 1669 02:12:55,360 --> 02:13:03,040 too much stiffs. So if one of the great things the city has is no parking right 1670 02:13:01,040 --> 02:13:08,159 now on the streets, full accessibility to the front of the building. Most key 1671 02:13:05,440 --> 02:13:11,760 thing in combining a fire, a house fire is accessibility. I can tell you your 1672 02:13:10,320 --> 02:13:15,199 police officer will tell you the same thing. When you pull up and there's 1673 02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:19,760 nothing on the street, you have full visit visibility. You have flexibility 1674 02:13:17,760 --> 02:13:23,040 to put your car where you need to put it and everything else. But back to the 1675 02:13:21,440 --> 02:13:27,199 fires. Your guys are going to allow people to 1676 02:13:24,639 --> 02:13:31,840 live in the back of the lot, roughly about 125 ft from the street. Well, we 1677 02:13:30,239 --> 02:13:36,880 can't get a rig back there. So, we got to pull the hose back. Okay. Pulling the 1678 02:13:35,040 --> 02:13:42,880 hose back to the back of the building. It's going to take two people. Okay. And 1679 02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:48,560 right now, the way the city's set up is uh we we get a manning shortage in 1680 02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:52,400 essence until people start arriving. the fire uh the police show up on the scene 1681 02:13:50,159 --> 02:13:58,400 and everything else. Uh and time is of the essence in a fire. A fire doubles 1682 02:13:55,280 --> 02:14:03,119 every minute. Okay. One of the other things you're doing is you're allowing 1683 02:14:00,159 --> 02:14:08,800 people to live in a structure right next to the garbage cans. Each one of those 1684 02:14:06,079 --> 02:14:13,679 large 85gallon garbage cans is three and a half gallons of gasoline when it 1685 02:14:11,040 --> 02:14:17,119 starts to melt. Now I have two. Well, I actually have three because I have a 1686 02:14:14,960 --> 02:14:23,679 yard waste one too. So, we're starting to get into some very high levels of uh 1687 02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:27,920 accelerates. Um, like I said, the uh location of these ADUs or is that the 1688 02:14:27,280 --> 02:14:28,800 right word? >> Yes, 1689 02:14:28,320 --> 02:14:34,480 » it is. >> I'm sorry. It is is just it's um 1690 02:14:32,159 --> 02:14:38,400 unfortunate. You're trying to make a situation better for people that need 1691 02:14:36,000 --> 02:14:41,679 help, but this isn't the way to go. I mean, because I think you're 1692 02:14:39,119 --> 02:14:49,280 jeopardizing a lot. the lady mentioned, you know, she she would not like to have 1693 02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:53,280 uh her structure impeding her her neighbors or in and same the same thing 1694 02:14:51,280 --> 02:14:58,159 with Mark. Mark's garage is I look at every time that's screaming. And this 1695 02:14:55,360 --> 02:15:02,320 anybody in real estate, anybody, do you know what his house is worth? 1696 02:15:00,560 --> 02:15:08,159 He can he can rent his his back property out for $1,200 a month. That's $14,000 a 1697 02:15:05,599 --> 02:15:15,760 year. You could take a 30-year mortgage out for $1,257 a month for $200,000. I 1698 02:15:13,440 --> 02:15:20,560 mean, you talk about kind of going in the wrong direction by allowing this. I 1699 02:15:19,119 --> 02:15:25,760 think you're going to have people go out and capsize capitalize on any house that 1700 02:15:23,440 --> 02:15:29,520 has a garage because I'm going to raise the price and when I go to sell it, 1701 02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:33,760 there's not that price. That house isn't going to be worth $300,000. It's going 1702 02:15:31,599 --> 02:15:39,040 to be $300,000 plus >> a second income. I mean, the initial 1703 02:15:36,560 --> 02:15:43,199 thought is to help people, but then you go back to the 1% of the response. I 1704 02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:47,679 mean, that's the key. I don't I don't know if this is an issue for everybody. 1705 02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:51,520 It's a talked about issue for real politicians, which thank God none of you 1706 02:15:49,679 --> 02:15:54,400 guys are, but I mean, if you were trying to get elected, you're going to talk 1707 02:15:52,960 --> 02:16:00,960 about these things, but they're really not relevant. I mean, uh I don't know. I 1708 02:15:59,199 --> 02:16:06,320 just I just think it's a lot of effort with a little bit of response from 1709 02:16:02,719 --> 02:16:11,520 people. And um again, safety is really really a key factor here for the the 1710 02:16:09,679 --> 02:16:15,040 firefighters and and the the police officers and everything else. I mean, 1711 02:16:12,880 --> 02:16:19,199 you couldn't have a tougher fire in the back of the building. I mean, here the 1712 02:16:17,119 --> 02:16:24,639 24 foot height, you got to you're going to have to bring a 35 foot ladder to 1713 02:16:21,119 --> 02:16:29,440 make the roof or to uh to to do a rescue. That takes two guys. And all all 1714 02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:36,160 the ladders are aluminum. They're still really heavy. I mean, you you just don't 1715 02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:39,760 have um the the consistent manpower to facilitate fighting fires in the rear. 1716 02:16:38,319 --> 02:16:44,639 And we're not even talking about a wind blown fire. There was a fire last 1717 02:16:41,599 --> 02:16:50,639 October on the back side of my street >> that I walked over and uh the the one 1718 02:16:47,920 --> 02:16:55,760 house to the west is at least 20 feet away from the the the fire building. The 1719 02:16:53,599 --> 02:17:00,160 whole side of it was burnt, you know? I mean, it's just evident on that on that, 1720 02:16:57,599 --> 02:17:04,319 you know. I mean, um, just the way it's all structured, I think you're putting a 1721 02:17:02,399 --> 02:17:07,519 lot of people at great risk because you're you're you're allowing them to 1722 02:17:05,679 --> 02:17:11,519 live in the alley or on the alley, I should say, in the So, I just love if 1723 02:17:09,679 --> 02:17:16,639 you guys take that in consideration. So, >> this is good input. We appreciate it. 1724 02:17:13,359 --> 02:17:21,280 Yeah, very much. Thank you. Anyone else want to come up and provide comment? 1725 02:17:20,080 --> 02:17:24,960 » All right. So, I want to I'm going to talk to you guys as a citizen, too. I 1726 02:17:23,359 --> 02:17:29,599 live a block away. I live on Court Street. I've been there my entire life. 1727 02:17:27,439 --> 02:17:35,840 So have all of my neighbors. We've all been there for 30 plus years. 1728 02:17:33,094 --> 02:17:39,599 [snorts] I struggle because I I think people who own their property should be 1729 02:17:37,519 --> 02:17:43,280 able to do whatever they want with their property. But at the same time, I'd 1730 02:17:41,920 --> 02:17:48,240 encourage you to think of how people are going to take advantage of this because 1731 02:17:44,960 --> 02:17:52,559 they are big time. I've got my neighbor next to me and my neighbor behind me who 1732 02:17:50,639 --> 02:17:57,679 have already committed to building ADUs as soon as it goes through and their 1733 02:17:54,719 --> 02:18:02,559 plan is to live in the ADU and rent out their home. Now, you're not putting the 1734 02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:05,200 homes only have a 30-day restriction on them. So, they're going to do exactly 1735 02:18:03,760 --> 02:18:09,920 what Kathy said. They're going to live in the ADU and they're going to use 1736 02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:14,319 their primary home now for shortterm. It'll be 30 days 1737 02:18:12,399 --> 02:18:19,040 technically, but they'll rent it out in May and then June and then July and then 1738 02:18:16,719 --> 02:18:25,280 August and September. So, I'm going to have, you know, I've got an alley that's 1739 02:18:21,760 --> 02:18:29,200 maybe 20 ft wide at most. We can barely get in and out of there. When it snows 1740 02:18:27,439 --> 02:18:34,800 in the winter, I'm the last place to get plowed because it's an alley. Everybody 1741 02:18:30,960 --> 02:18:42,800 knows how that works. Um, so to shove two more homes 5 feet away from me, um, 1742 02:18:40,000 --> 02:18:47,679 man, that's going to be I'm already congested when I walk into my backyard. 1743 02:18:45,359 --> 02:18:52,800 We all have six foot tall fences and I'm looking into five other yards. I can My 1744 02:18:51,120 --> 02:18:57,040 whole block can see me when I'm in my backyard. So, to add two more homes in 1745 02:18:55,200 --> 02:19:00,240 my backyard, uh, and then the additional parking that 1746 02:18:58,800 --> 02:19:06,559 goes with it and the additional people that go with it. overcrowding is not 1747 02:19:03,359 --> 02:19:08,960 something I'm excited about. Um, but I would just think about how people are 1748 02:19:07,760 --> 02:19:13,599 going to take advantage of it because because they will, you know, one other 1749 02:19:11,439 --> 02:19:18,800 thing I thought of is all right, I can only have a 14t garage. I'm going to 1750 02:19:16,719 --> 02:19:24,559 tell you it's an ADU then so that I can go up to 24 and then when I'm done 1751 02:19:21,280 --> 02:19:29,679 building I've got a 24 foot garage when I was only allowed to have a 14ft 1752 02:19:26,399 --> 02:19:35,200 garage, you know. Or or maybe I'll I'll build an ADU. Gosh, I was intending on 1753 02:19:31,679 --> 02:19:40,080 having an ADU, but what what I abandon the use. What if I don't use it as a ADU 1754 02:19:38,319 --> 02:19:45,359 anymore? I go back to using it as a garage. Now I'm 24t tall. Um, 1755 02:19:44,559 --> 02:19:48,080 » it's a good point. >> Yeah, I would just think of how people 1756 02:19:46,880 --> 02:19:52,640 are going to take advantage of it because there's lots of talk about how 1757 02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:57,600 they can do that already. Um, and it's going to happen. You know, the the owner 1758 02:19:54,880 --> 02:20:03,520 occupied thing is huge. Uh, I know people that own 80 plus homes in the 1759 02:20:00,640 --> 02:20:07,920 city of St. Joe and he's got enough money he'll put an ADU on every single 1760 02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:11,439 one of them and rent them out. Um, he's looking forward to it. He can't wait. 1761 02:20:09,600 --> 02:20:15,520 So, the owner occupied thing I think is is a big deal because if you don't do 1762 02:20:13,120 --> 02:20:22,640 that, you are going to run into that. Um, the missing middle is an interesting 1763 02:20:18,479 --> 02:20:27,600 part for me because the people that are can afford to build these ADUs are not 1764 02:20:24,800 --> 02:20:31,439 in the middle. If you got another 100 plus grand laying around to throw up 1765 02:20:29,359 --> 02:20:36,720 another structure on your property, you're not in the middle, my friend. Um, 1766 02:20:35,120 --> 02:20:42,399 you know, you may be supporting the middle by renting it out to them, 1767 02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:45,600 but you, you know, the 1%'s just getting richer. They're just putting more money 1768 02:20:43,680 --> 02:20:50,640 in their pockets. Their home value just went up. I think Todd made a great point 1769 02:20:48,479 --> 02:20:54,319 when he turns around to sell his home. I mean, how how much more is it worth now 1770 02:20:52,479 --> 02:20:59,280 when now the middle really can't afford to be there? And I've got, you know, 1771 02:20:56,560 --> 02:21:04,319 there's there's people on my block that have bought large homes intended for 1772 02:21:02,000 --> 02:21:08,160 multifamilies and they have enough money they just say, "No, I know this is a 1773 02:21:06,319 --> 02:21:12,399 triplex. I know three people can be here. I can afford to be here by 1774 02:21:10,080 --> 02:21:16,240 myself." So, I'm, you know, I'm getting rid of that. So, I I can see a lot of 1775 02:21:14,080 --> 02:21:20,479 that moving forward where it's well intended and then people just don't, it 1776 02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:28,080 just doesn't pan out that way. The the people with all the money end up winning 1777 02:21:23,200 --> 02:21:33,600 anyway. Um, so yeah, was that >> Thanks for your input. Anybody else want 1778 02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:35,520 to come up? >> Yeah, 1779 02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:41,200 » come on up. >> If you would, 1780 02:21:38,800 --> 02:21:47,359 we rely on you guys to maintain the integrity and 1781 02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:51,439 our our our zoning. If you don't, you're a little reluctant on rules and 1782 02:21:49,040 --> 02:21:56,000 limitations. Listen to me talk. If you don't set a limitation, they're just 1783 02:21:54,240 --> 02:22:00,960 they're going to do whatever they want. And I I I I understand what you're 1784 02:21:58,240 --> 02:22:05,600 saying. I trust that my fellow citizens got to do the right thing. But if it 1785 02:22:03,120 --> 02:22:09,840 comes down to just how what I can build and how cheap I can build it, there 1786 02:22:07,520 --> 02:22:14,000 people out there do that all the time. My other hat was in the construction 1787 02:22:11,520 --> 02:22:19,920 world. And it's really it always comes down to dollars and cents. But the 1788 02:22:16,800 --> 02:22:24,640 gentleman just mentioned every house has a the ability to be uh 1789 02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:30,479 an ADU built on it. They're going to get sold fast topped out because I'm going 1790 02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:37,520 to bring in subsidy, you know, a supplemental income. Like I said, $1,200 1791 02:22:33,120 --> 02:22:43,040 a month for a 400 foot unit, probably be going right here. So, if you go into the 1792 02:22:39,280 --> 02:22:46,640 600 square 600 foot units, you're really going to get up there. I mean, and 1793 02:22:45,040 --> 02:22:51,920 price, you know, talking about 18 maybe $2,000 a month. Um and so, yeah. So now 1794 02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:56,080 all of a sudden that house value just went up. But we're not I don't think 1795 02:22:53,760 --> 02:23:00,240 we're solving the problems. The best thing we could do for the people that 1796 02:22:57,920 --> 02:23:03,920 need more help is take a a dedicated section of property abandoned factory or 1797 02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:09,040 something else and set some special building codes so we can bring those 1798 02:23:05,359 --> 02:23:14,080 prices down because every every new code enforcement just cost more and more. It 1799 02:23:11,520 --> 02:23:17,359 really does. And uh this isn't I don't think this is going to be a big enough 1800 02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:21,920 answer. I think you're going to end up with a lot of, you know, weekly rentals 1801 02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:26,640 and and a lot of short-term rental people, you know. Um, that's all I got 1802 02:23:24,960 --> 02:23:30,319 to say. And plus, too, you know, the guy said, "Well, my grandma and grandpa 1803 02:23:28,720 --> 02:23:34,479 moved in." We're not going to the second floor of garage, right? 1804 02:23:32,080 --> 02:23:37,120 » You know what I mean? [laughter] >> It's a good point. Thank you. 1805 02:23:36,560 --> 02:23:39,520 » Appreciate it. >> Just where we're standing right now. 1806 02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:44,479 » Yeah. >> Is 24 ft 1807 02:23:41,280 --> 02:23:49,439 » or my eyes, my eyesight right now, first floor is 12 feet. This one is tw 10. I 1808 02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:54,240 mean, we're we're I'm not even 24 feet right here. So, imagine my I'm still 1809 02:23:51,840 --> 02:23:55,760 looking in my neighbor's yard. >> Wow. 1810 02:23:54,720 --> 02:24:03,240 » Thought that was in. >> It's a nice perspective. Thank you. 1811 02:23:58,399 --> 02:24:03,240 » Does anybody else like to come up? 1812 02:24:06,880 --> 02:24:14,080 » Hi, Stacy Runner, 1301 Lake Boulevard. My concern 1813 02:24:12,160 --> 02:24:19,520 is I know right now it's saying no short-term rentals, no under a month. 1814 02:24:17,040 --> 02:24:23,520 What happens if I know it's gone to the state a couple 1815 02:24:21,439 --> 02:24:29,760 times about changing that to where municipalities can't control that? So 1816 02:24:27,520 --> 02:24:36,080 what happens then if we have all these ADUs and then somehow it goes 1817 02:24:33,280 --> 02:24:40,319 » and now we have tons of short-term rentals. That's just 1818 02:24:38,399 --> 02:24:42,160 something that worries me. >> Thank you. 1819 02:24:41,359 --> 02:24:48,200 » Good point. >> Yeah, good perspective. 1820 02:24:44,800 --> 02:24:48,200 Anyone else? 1821 02:24:48,240 --> 02:24:56,560 Just as a comment here to you that are in the in the uh public. We're This 1822 02:24:53,840 --> 02:25:02,240 isn't something that we decided to do. We've been asked to do this and the 1823 02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:06,160 planning commission has pushed back. So, you need to go to your city 1824 02:25:03,680 --> 02:25:10,399 commissioners. they're the ones who are making these 1825 02:25:07,600 --> 02:25:15,520 decisions. So that would be more effective. But our job here is to come 1826 02:25:12,800 --> 02:25:22,960 up with some regulations in the event that they decide on your behalf to 1827 02:25:19,520 --> 02:25:27,600 implement ADUs. So your input is is helpful because those are additional 1828 02:25:24,560 --> 02:25:35,280 things we need to consider as well as a safety net. Um, and so we I would say 1829 02:25:33,200 --> 02:25:38,800 » I want to ask a question before we decide on anything. I want to ask a 1830 02:25:37,680 --> 02:25:44,240 question. >> Has the public safety 1831 02:25:42,399 --> 02:25:51,439 been um notified and been involved in the 1832 02:25:47,040 --> 02:25:56,880 discussions in any way on ADUs and um how do they feel? I mean because very 1833 02:25:53,680 --> 02:26:02,319 good points brought up um about you know many alleys are not serviceable at all. 1834 02:25:59,920 --> 02:26:07,120 The street I live on they can't pick up any kind of leaf or limbs or anything 1835 02:26:05,359 --> 02:26:11,200 because they tell me they can't turn the corner and make it down the alley. 1836 02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:17,280 » So how do you put out that second floor ADU fire 1837 02:26:12,640 --> 02:26:21,359 » from um 150 feet away or more than that because the fire hydrant is somewhere 1838 02:26:18,960 --> 02:26:27,920 else down the street. So, I guess my concern now is that um 1839 02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:35,520 um I feel like for us to make these decisions, um they have to really be um 1840 02:26:32,960 --> 02:26:42,560 secondary to public safety and that public safety needs to be um in the 1841 02:26:38,479 --> 02:26:47,520 forefront of guiding us because we um need them to say if they don't feel that 1842 02:26:45,439 --> 02:26:51,680 an ADU should be allowed to be over the alley, then that might change completely 1843 02:26:49,760 --> 02:26:55,200 what we've been discussing. >> Um, and I feel it's very important that 1844 02:26:53,520 --> 02:27:00,000 they're involved if they haven't been so far. 1845 02:26:56,240 --> 02:27:03,840 » Do so. I guess my clarifying question, would you like to see the language 1846 02:27:01,520 --> 02:27:08,800 routed to public safety and receive a formal communication regarding their 1847 02:27:06,160 --> 02:27:13,120 sentiment on the issue and concerns? I think it's Yeah, I think it's important 1848 02:27:10,240 --> 02:27:20,560 that if if the way this is moving forward will allow um an ADU unit to be 1849 02:27:18,000 --> 02:27:25,120 above a garage in an alley, you know, that has I mean, we're not restricting 1850 02:27:22,720 --> 02:27:29,840 that the alley has to be 26 foot wide or it can't have a ADU 1851 02:27:28,240 --> 02:27:33,840 or maybe that's something they're going to say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't 1852 02:27:31,920 --> 02:27:38,640 service them from there, so then we need these other restrictions. So that's the 1853 02:27:36,240 --> 02:27:43,040 thing I think um before we really finalize this and maybe this takes a 1854 02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:49,680 month or two longer but if that's the case and I think today's input from the 1855 02:27:46,800 --> 02:27:54,880 public was extremely valuable and that um we really need to have public safety 1856 02:27:51,760 --> 02:28:00,399 involved in the process and um be at the forefront of guiding us on what they 1857 02:27:56,800 --> 02:28:04,800 feel is uh reasonable and you know if 24 feet means a ladder truck but they can't 1858 02:28:02,560 --> 02:28:09,280 pick up brush with a little truck on an alley county because they can't turn the 1859 02:28:06,880 --> 02:28:14,000 corners. How do you service a fire that might occur in that location? So, I I 1860 02:28:11,920 --> 02:28:17,760 think u I I really appreciate all the comments today and feel that it's um 1861 02:28:15,840 --> 02:28:24,760 brought a lot of things to light that we need to consider before we really move 1862 02:28:20,319 --> 02:28:24,760 forward with making a recommendation. 1863 02:28:24,880 --> 02:28:28,080 » May I? >> Yes. 1864 02:28:26,399 --> 02:28:34,080 » Thank you. when we if we directed to public safety, 1865 02:28:31,120 --> 02:28:37,840 it would be helpful to give some context rather than just giving them language 1866 02:28:35,760 --> 02:28:42,160 because this gentleman has brought up some things that we really hadn't 1867 02:28:39,600 --> 02:28:47,200 considered because that's his expertise. >> And things like the narrowness of a of 1868 02:28:44,399 --> 02:28:50,960 an alley, that's a good point. Or the if the dwelling units are in the back of a 1869 02:28:48,800 --> 02:28:54,080 lot, how do you service it with fire trucks? Those are things that we hadn't 1870 02:28:53,359 --> 02:28:57,920 considered. >> Yeah. I mean, what we can do is we can 1871 02:28:56,080 --> 02:29:01,200 potentially set up a meeting. I can meet with them, kind of discuss your 1872 02:28:59,200 --> 02:29:03,760 viewpoint. If you'd like someone to be a representative of the planning 1873 02:29:02,080 --> 02:29:07,359 commission, be included in that meeting. I'd be happy to accommodate that as 1874 02:29:05,280 --> 02:29:11,359 well. Um, and we can kind of discuss that more with them and then they can 1875 02:29:09,439 --> 02:29:15,520 provide feedback from there. I >> potentially be at an efficient meeting 1876 02:29:14,080 --> 02:29:18,800 as well. So, >> we can certainly accommodate that. Yeah. 1877 02:29:17,280 --> 02:29:25,200 Let them know that we you'd like a representative to speak on that. And I 1878 02:29:20,960 --> 02:29:30,479 will further say um um the one comment um I think I still am leaning toward I 1879 02:29:28,800 --> 02:29:36,479 want the special use versus the conditional because of what you obtain 1880 02:29:33,520 --> 02:29:40,800 by having public comment. Um, and you know, we we got public comment tonight 1881 02:29:38,479 --> 02:29:44,720 and it brought up several other issues that 1882 02:29:42,080 --> 02:29:50,080 » um, in a vacuum, in a room, in an office, you don't always get. And I 1883 02:29:47,280 --> 02:29:55,439 still like the idea of having it be a special use versus student. 1884 02:29:52,880 --> 02:30:00,080 Um, and you know, just to state that that I still feel like that that is the 1885 02:29:58,000 --> 02:30:05,040 route they should go because every property is going to be unique and 1886 02:30:01,920 --> 02:30:12,640 different. And what occurs in an area where the lots are an acre versus 33 1887 02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:18,560 foot wide by 110t long is totally different. And um I I really think that 1888 02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:23,760 we should consider a little more before we just think that you know that it's 1889 02:30:21,680 --> 02:30:27,760 not something that the neighbor should be included in. 1890 02:30:25,120 --> 02:30:30,080 » If I were a neighbor included, I would be extremely disappointed to find out 1891 02:30:29,520 --> 02:30:34,960 that someone >> and I feel the same way. Um because the 1892 02:30:32,800 --> 02:30:38,800 area I live in is very congested and we have parking problems. We have all kinds 1893 02:30:36,800 --> 02:30:44,479 of problems and good point. I would feel very uncomfortable having all of a 1894 02:30:41,280 --> 02:30:51,280 sudden just outright approval that we had no ability to even comment on. Um, 1895 02:30:48,399 --> 02:30:56,240 you know, so just I would like that to go on the record is that I would like to 1896 02:30:53,680 --> 02:31:00,880 have us consider that and because we've gained so much tonight from what what 1897 02:30:59,040 --> 02:31:04,960 was expressed here by the public. >> All right. So, can we get a consensus 1898 02:31:02,560 --> 02:31:09,439 here? Special use permit or conditional use permit? Where are we at with that? 1899 02:31:07,520 --> 02:31:13,600 conditional >> especially 1900 02:31:11,200 --> 02:31:19,280 » I think with considering that right the uniqueness of our different lots 1901 02:31:16,560 --> 02:31:24,399 » in the city you know some I think some lots are are 1902 02:31:22,240 --> 02:31:29,200 pretty easy and I think some other lots are probably going to require uh some 1903 02:31:26,960 --> 02:31:34,479 more careful thought I >> I think I would want a special use 1904 02:31:32,880 --> 02:31:41,280 » to to get those considerations >> I think the consensus is special use 1905 02:31:39,840 --> 02:31:45,920 » and I think that might have been Mr. Eert's consensus too, by the way, whose 1906 02:31:43,439 --> 02:31:49,680 letter was worded. >> Um 1907 02:31:46,640 --> 02:31:54,319 » um clarification with the alley stuff. We do we currently have houses that face 1908 02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:57,439 directly on an alley that are unable to be serviced by fire trucks or 1909 02:31:56,160 --> 02:32:01,439 » so. So So this is an interesting question. And so currently in the text 1910 02:32:00,160 --> 02:32:04,880 amendments we have going forward for the lots and yards, there are certain 1911 02:32:03,200 --> 02:32:10,479 streets that for zoning ordinance purposes we consider to be alleys and 1912 02:32:07,840 --> 02:32:16,720 there are in some cases homes that front onto those alleys. Uh gen generally no I 1913 02:32:14,479 --> 02:32:21,439 don't believe I I would have to do some research to make that determination but 1914 02:32:19,359 --> 02:32:24,479 I would probably have to defer to public safety in terms of like servicing of 1915 02:32:22,960 --> 02:32:27,920 those. That would be a great question to add into that. But like the street the 1916 02:32:26,720 --> 02:32:30,240 street you're talking about though. Yeah. 1917 02:32:28,240 --> 02:32:34,640 » Vine is served from a street that's 15 to 16 foot wide. They're they don't have 1918 02:32:33,120 --> 02:32:40,640 access behind them because of the railroad. So Vine is a street um and the 1919 02:32:38,720 --> 02:32:44,960 that's where I live in the back of my house where they told me I can't put 1920 02:32:42,319 --> 02:32:49,040 limbs out there ever or leaves that they have to be in the front yard because 1921 02:32:46,479 --> 02:32:51,359 they say they can't make the turn. >> So right 1922 02:32:50,000 --> 02:32:55,280 » you can't make the turn to pick up leaves in a little thing. What are you 1923 02:32:52,880 --> 02:32:57,840 going to do with a 55 foot rig when you have an issue? 1924 02:32:56,080 --> 02:33:01,040 » That's my that's my point though is we already have houses that are fronting on 1925 02:33:00,000 --> 02:33:07,600 alleys we do. >> And so when we send information over to 1926 02:33:05,040 --> 02:33:10,800 safety or whatever that would be some additional context of hey what do we do 1927 02:33:09,359 --> 02:33:15,280 now for this stuff? >> So is this is it inadequate now or is 1928 02:33:14,080 --> 02:33:18,240 there is it going to be fine? >> Yeah, I think that's a fair point. It's 1929 02:33:16,720 --> 02:33:24,800 also important to consider that not every backyard has alley access as well. 1930 02:33:21,920 --> 02:33:30,000 So you'd be looking at going through on the sideyard which possibly could have 1931 02:33:27,600 --> 02:33:33,200 non-conforming side setbacks. These are certainly things to consider and worth 1932 02:33:31,439 --> 02:33:37,600 discussing with public safety and possibly amending this language to uh 1933 02:33:35,760 --> 02:33:42,000 include something in regards to having an adequate uh 1934 02:33:39,680 --> 02:33:45,520 » fire access. I we'd have to >> include them on that discussion to see 1935 02:33:43,680 --> 02:33:48,640 like what they would be wanting to see out of that, but certainly worth 1936 02:33:47,439 --> 02:33:52,240 considering. Mhm. >> Can we 1937 02:33:50,640 --> 02:33:55,520 in terms of the rental stuff because I know we we've discussed obviously that 1938 02:33:54,080 --> 02:33:58,640 we're not looking to do month like monthly rentals and things like that. 1939 02:33:57,359 --> 02:34:05,359 Obviously, we're all in agreement on that. Are we able to um 1940 02:34:02,960 --> 02:34:10,800 adjust the rental ordinance language so that such that if you have an ADU, your 1941 02:34:08,319 --> 02:34:15,040 house is not allowed like it's going to be the same stipulations of whatever we 1942 02:34:12,960 --> 02:34:18,240 come back with of a threemonth minimum or whatever it is. Can we are we allowed 1943 02:34:17,280 --> 02:34:22,960 to do that? >> Well, the that's in our code of 1944 02:34:20,560 --> 02:34:25,920 ordinance. That's what you're trying to decide 1945 02:34:25,200 --> 02:34:31,359 tonight. >> But I No, but I want to allow if the 1946 02:34:28,880 --> 02:34:34,160 owner lives in the ADU, their p the primary dwelling, can we restrict that 1947 02:34:32,880 --> 02:34:36,640 one too for rentals? >> You mean you mean three months? 1948 02:34:35,840 --> 02:34:38,399 » Yes. >> I would think 1949 02:34:37,200 --> 02:34:39,920 » because that would alleviate some of the concern there. 1950 02:34:39,520 --> 02:34:43,359 » Oh, >> I think it would have to. 1951 02:34:42,080 --> 02:34:46,000 » I don't know if we're allowed to. I don't know if there's some legal issue 1952 02:34:44,319 --> 02:34:52,080 with that. I think that may be difficult. The other kind of easier 1953 02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:56,399 solution possibly would be requiring the uh property owner to reside in the 1954 02:34:54,720 --> 02:35:00,240 primary dwelling unit. >> Then that would eliminate all of that 1955 02:34:58,960 --> 02:35:05,760 concern. It would be a bit more restrictive. Uh I suppose but 1956 02:35:04,080 --> 02:35:11,040 » the only thing I think about that is let's say you know empty nesters that 1957 02:35:08,880 --> 02:35:17,359 you know so I don't think they should be penalized. Um, so I think we need to 1958 02:35:13,920 --> 02:35:24,080 come up with a a good idea of, you know, how we can make it work because as you 1959 02:35:19,680 --> 02:35:28,560 get older and things, um, now most older people aren't going to live in the 1960 02:35:25,520 --> 02:35:34,080 second floor garage area, you know, so there might be certain things that'll 1961 02:35:30,000 --> 02:35:41,680 limit that anyway, but um, I think that, um, we need to come up with a a clear, 1962 02:35:38,000 --> 02:35:46,560 concise way. But, you know, and to her point, you know, if they do change the 1963 02:35:43,600 --> 02:35:49,439 law and you build all these ADUs, then all of a sudden, do these all become 1964 02:35:48,080 --> 02:35:51,840 weekly rentals? >> Yeah. 1965 02:35:49,920 --> 02:35:56,319 » And are they allowed by right and then the would an ADU be exempt from that 1966 02:35:54,720 --> 02:36:00,160 change in law because it was an accessory dwelling unit and could that 1967 02:35:58,240 --> 02:36:05,600 language be written in or would it not stand up? So what I would like to add to 1968 02:36:02,080 --> 02:36:12,080 that is it the state would supersede us and the state has reviewed uh language. 1969 02:36:09,439 --> 02:36:15,920 I it has not moved forward the bill I'm not 100% sure where it ended up but they 1970 02:36:13,760 --> 02:36:20,640 did review a bill which would have allowed ADUs across the board. 1971 02:36:18,720 --> 02:36:24,880 » So ADUs to be weekly >> no ADUs just to be permitted across the 1972 02:36:23,120 --> 02:36:29,600 board which would have superseded us at the local level. So 1973 02:36:27,439 --> 02:36:33,520 » I I don't know if the best course of action is to base it on what the state 1974 02:36:31,359 --> 02:36:36,640 could do because they could make us allow ADUs which would supersede the 1975 02:36:35,439 --> 02:36:38,960 entire discussion we're having right now. I see. 1976 02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:42,240 » So I don't know if we should be basing our decision based off of that. 1977 02:36:40,560 --> 02:36:46,319 » Okay. To further answer your question, I think 1978 02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:50,720 we could try to build things in the language that make it clear it can't be 1979 02:36:48,399 --> 02:36:56,560 for short-term rental use, but the state can supersede things if if legislation 1980 02:36:53,439 --> 02:36:59,600 moves that way on on either ADUs or short-term rentals. I mean, it's been a 1981 02:36:58,240 --> 02:37:03,359 battle. And, >> you know, so far it's 1982 02:37:01,200 --> 02:37:07,520 » and there's never any reassurance that that's not going to happen even your 1983 02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,439 your current property >> with anything. [laughter] 1984 02:37:09,040 --> 02:37:13,359 » Huh. >> It's like with anything. 1985 02:37:11,520 --> 02:37:16,560 Did I hear someone say earlier that only 1% of residents responded to the survey? 1986 02:37:16,000 --> 02:37:20,880 » Correct. >> So, I thought the survey was a great 1987 02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:24,160 idea. >> How did we advertise that to people? How 1988 02:37:22,720 --> 02:37:29,600 did we let the citizens know, hey, there's a survey available for you? 1989 02:37:28,240 --> 02:37:34,479 » But we're I think we're looking at the language now is the way to do it is, you 1990 02:37:32,160 --> 02:37:39,200 know, if you if you're against it, this is put it in out to the public and let 1991 02:37:37,280 --> 02:37:44,520 them see the full context. >> Let's know it was there. Did you guys 1992 02:37:40,640 --> 02:37:44,520 did any of you do the survey? 1993 02:37:44,880 --> 02:37:51,040 » Okay. >> I couldn't find it online. I had to 1994 02:37:48,720 --> 02:37:55,040 write to Emily and say, "Emily, where's that survey? 1995 02:37:53,200 --> 02:37:57,439 I've been on the city's website and I can't 1996 02:37:55,920 --> 02:38:01,760 » and I missed the last meeting, so I didn't even know there was a survey 1997 02:37:59,280 --> 02:38:05,920 until today. I don't have Facebook. So, unless I'm checking the city's website 1998 02:38:03,600 --> 02:38:09,520 on a daily basis, thinking, well, shoot, maybe they'll come out with something." 1999 02:38:08,160 --> 02:38:12,000 How would I know it was there? >> That's why I think 2000 02:38:10,319 --> 02:38:16,800 » I had an inspection and Trudy told me about it. I mentioned it to Mark and 2001 02:38:14,880 --> 02:38:22,800 four other neighbors. They all were coming. Um, but two two jammed up a 2002 02:38:20,560 --> 02:38:28,720 little bit, but I mean >> it's definitely a hot 2003 02:38:25,280 --> 02:38:32,960 » Yeah. to not hear from 90% of 99% of the population. I think it's important 2004 02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:38,080 though that you gave us a lot of good input and I also think it's very 2005 02:38:34,720 --> 02:38:42,800 important that um you know um we're a body that makes suggestions but it it's 2006 02:38:40,479 --> 02:38:47,760 also important that you follow through like was mentioned and um your comments 2007 02:38:45,600 --> 02:38:52,000 today I think have really been very beneficial and appreciate not getting 2008 02:38:50,240 --> 02:38:55,359 bypassed because a lot of times people bypass the planning commission and just 2009 02:38:53,840 --> 02:38:59,200 wait till it's >> um but it helps us in the long run 2010 02:38:57,359 --> 02:39:04,479 because of you all being here today and making comments. Um, you know, one thing 2011 02:39:01,680 --> 02:39:08,479 we already decided that we really felt uncomfortable with because of your 2012 02:39:06,160 --> 02:39:12,399 foresight to come today and and explain to us your rationale and there were a 2013 02:39:11,120 --> 02:39:17,760 lot of things we hadn't thought about. So, it's it's always beneficial to have 2014 02:39:15,120 --> 02:39:21,520 community input at every level, not just waiting until it's going for the final 2015 02:39:19,520 --> 02:39:23,840 vote. So, we appreciate you all being here. 2016 02:39:22,240 --> 02:39:27,359 » That's why I asked about the delivery method. I mean, I think things look 2017 02:39:25,200 --> 02:39:32,399 different today if there's 130 people in here that are against it. Do do people 2018 02:39:30,479 --> 02:39:35,280 know that we're having this meeting right now? I mean, other than Facebook, 2019 02:39:34,880 --> 02:39:38,640 » Yeah. >> how are we telling the community? 2020 02:39:36,880 --> 02:39:41,520 » This also isn't the public hearing yet. >> Yeah, we're not the public hearing yet. 2021 02:39:40,640 --> 02:39:44,080 Yeah. >> But I mean, we're tossing around ideas 2022 02:39:43,200 --> 02:39:47,280 and things >> as far as what we need to do for the 2023 02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:50,640 next meeting. If you can provide direction, it's starting to get a little 2024 02:39:48,800 --> 02:39:54,720 bit late and we're getting sidetracked a little bit here. if we could. So, I 2025 02:39:52,880 --> 02:40:00,560 think the direction is that we would like to have the fire and safety 2026 02:39:58,399 --> 02:40:06,560 consulted, the public works, excuse me, or public safety, excuse me, um 2027 02:40:03,200 --> 02:40:11,040 consulted and that they make recommendations 2028 02:40:08,240 --> 02:40:15,600 um or how they feel about, you know, certain things that that we're 2029 02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:20,640 considering um height, you know, location, all of those elements um that 2030 02:40:18,399 --> 02:40:25,680 may be impactful to how they do their jobs. And then 2031 02:40:23,680 --> 02:40:29,280 » special use permit, not conditional use permit. 2032 02:40:26,720 --> 02:40:32,880 » And then everything else I think um >> but we 2033 02:40:29,840 --> 02:40:35,600 » high square footage 4 to 800 um all of the things that we 2034 02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:38,640 » the height maybe we I mean >> we might have to think about once public 2035 02:40:37,600 --> 02:40:41,359 safety >> we may have to think about that. 2036 02:40:39,760 --> 02:40:45,040 » You give me a perspective that I really hadn't 2037 02:40:42,479 --> 02:40:49,760 » 24 feet is high. So >> there's a lot to do still here. It is 2038 02:40:48,000 --> 02:40:54,800 definitely not ready. So we got let's get okay let's keep it on track here so 2039 02:40:51,760 --> 02:41:01,200 we can go home. We've given you input as to as to the major things. There is 2040 02:40:57,520 --> 02:41:06,640 concern beyond those things with safety. We need to get some input there. Why 2041 02:41:02,960 --> 02:41:10,800 don't we start with that um next along with these other things that we've 2042 02:41:08,240 --> 02:41:19,280 discussed so that we can give some direction and close this down for today. 2043 02:41:14,720 --> 02:41:22,399 Um, so we did close the public section. We didn't do that formally. 2044 02:41:20,800 --> 02:41:26,800 » We can take other public comment. I think that was more specific to the 2045 02:41:24,240 --> 02:41:31,200 ADUs, but there may be other public. >> Is there any other public comment? 2046 02:41:29,200 --> 02:41:35,439 » Thank you. You guys are a very good board. You're a very good administrator. 2047 02:41:33,840 --> 02:41:41,972 Everybody exchange ideas. 2048 02:41:38,640 --> 02:41:45,760 Unfortunately, a lot of over 20s. You [clears throat] guys are very cohesive. 2049 02:41:43,200 --> 02:41:50,479 Well, we appreciate that. We're We try. >> And just so you know, we get paid a lot 2050 02:41:47,040 --> 02:41:55,920 of money for doing this. [laughter] >> All right. So, public's comment section 2051 02:41:53,520 --> 02:42:01,760 is now formally closed. Do do commissioners have any more discussion 2052 02:41:58,880 --> 02:42:06,960 » that they'd like to have with staff? >> I think [clears throat and cough] I I I 2053 02:42:04,319 --> 02:42:09,520 appreciate the bringing to light that there's a 2054 02:42:08,240 --> 02:42:15,840 possibility that someone would just build a 24 foot garage and abandon their 2055 02:42:11,840 --> 02:42:21,280 ADU. So, if if staff could could just chew on that point and maybe have some 2056 02:42:19,359 --> 02:42:24,960 if possible recommendations on how to maybe avoid some of those 2057 02:42:23,359 --> 02:42:31,600 considerations. Uh the same is the with the what I'll 2058 02:42:28,080 --> 02:42:39,520 call is the owner swap. If there's ideas that we could consider on how to 2059 02:42:36,560 --> 02:42:45,439 restrict the owner swap in and to some extent to 2060 02:42:42,960 --> 02:42:50,479 maybe require the either require the owner be in the primary residence or 2061 02:42:47,920 --> 02:42:53,359 that the owner >> they can't rent out 2062 02:42:51,600 --> 02:42:58,000 » they can't rent their own for for less than a certain period of time if if that 2063 02:42:56,399 --> 02:43:02,880 makes sense that you know the owner swap thing you know now that I had to think 2064 02:42:59,520 --> 02:43:08,680 about it does I think that does create the possibility of some some tension 2065 02:43:08,800 --> 02:43:15,439 all right we anybody else with any more comments 2066 02:43:12,640 --> 02:43:19,040 So general direction is next time you'll have updated draft language. You'll have 2067 02:43:17,200 --> 02:43:21,680 touch base with the safety people. We're not recommending to do the public 2068 02:43:20,240 --> 02:43:23,439 hearing yet next month. >> No, 2069 02:43:22,160 --> 02:43:24,800 » because we have to sort everything out still. 2070 02:43:24,080 --> 02:43:30,399 » Correct. >> Right. Right. I was I was reading it 2071 02:43:27,600 --> 02:43:33,359 shorten things to have that in so that we can get this solved which will be 2072 02:43:32,560 --> 02:43:38,000 solved >> from here instead of here. 2073 02:43:36,240 --> 02:43:41,680 » Yes. And kind of wrapping this into the item I had under staff comment. I had a 2074 02:43:40,160 --> 02:43:47,359 list of items that are to be on the agenda next month. I will say it is a uh 2075 02:43:45,200 --> 02:43:50,399 pretty significant agenda. We have a few large ticket items uh to go through. 2076 02:43:49,760 --> 02:43:54,080 Okay. >> Considering that the length of our 2077 02:43:51,760 --> 02:43:58,479 discussion today, it may be appropriate to push ADU discussion to November 2078 02:43:56,240 --> 02:44:02,319 because next month we are intending to talk about the Harbor Shores parcel 5 2079 02:44:00,319 --> 02:44:07,760 planned unit development uh which is a new PUD in the city. that will likely be 2080 02:44:05,279 --> 02:44:10,880 a lengthy discussion. Uh as well as an application we received for zoning text 2081 02:44:09,279 --> 02:44:16,640 amendments for the R3 zone, which we likely spoke about at our last meeting. 2082 02:44:13,120 --> 02:44:21,680 Uh likely be a long discussion. Uh we're also we're intending to bring forward 2083 02:44:18,800 --> 02:44:24,960 the review of the 2016 master plan. Uh every five years we need to review the 2084 02:44:23,359 --> 02:44:28,479 master plan to determine if an update is needed. Uh 2085 02:44:27,040 --> 02:44:31,760 » does that have to be next month? >> It does not have to be next month. I 2086 02:44:30,000 --> 02:44:36,720 would likely put it towards the end of the agenda and possibly we could table 2087 02:44:33,520 --> 02:44:40,160 it to November as needed. Um, but I would like to have it on everyone's 2088 02:44:38,160 --> 02:44:44,319 radar. Uh, if you have some spare time, I'd recommend reviewing the 2016 master 2089 02:44:42,160 --> 02:44:47,640 plan uh, just so that everyone's up to date on it. 2090 02:44:48,640 --> 02:44:58,800 » Okay. Any further comments from staff? >> Yes. 2091 02:44:54,160 --> 02:45:03,760 » So, um, two two things. One is, um, Mr. Miller asked me where we were the status 2092 02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:08,479 of the special use permit for the short-term rental for the building on 2093 02:45:06,479 --> 02:45:12,800 State and Market Street. >> Um 2094 02:45:10,640 --> 02:45:17,760 » there was an application for short-term rental um which would be a special use 2095 02:45:15,359 --> 02:45:21,600 permit there. Planning Commission had recommended it be denied. The city 2096 02:45:19,439 --> 02:45:26,160 commission ultimately denied it. There was an appeal by the property owner with 2097 02:45:23,520 --> 02:45:32,000 filed with the circuit court. So it is pending in court. Um, we have just 2098 02:45:29,359 --> 02:45:37,439 finished the briefing and I expect to get a notice from the court on when oral 2099 02:45:34,560 --> 02:45:43,600 argument will be, which probably will be a few months down the road, but um, just 2100 02:45:40,399 --> 02:45:47,520 want to let you know the status of that. um part of our discussion, I'm not sure 2101 02:45:46,160 --> 02:45:53,359 how we're going to fit it in with all we've got going, but was maybe to 2102 02:45:49,920 --> 02:45:57,359 provide a little bit of um kind of an educational component, I 2103 02:45:55,040 --> 02:46:02,800 guess, on on some of the processing uh that came up with the special use permit 2104 02:45:59,840 --> 02:46:08,800 in particular. Um you've seen a little bit of change in how Dalton prepares the 2105 02:46:05,359 --> 02:46:16,160 memos. Um and moving forward when we have special use permits, he's going to 2106 02:46:11,279 --> 02:46:20,319 be very um diligent and clear in what the standards are that have to be 2107 02:46:17,760 --> 02:46:24,800 reviewed there. Those are always spelled out, but in addition, there'll be staff 2108 02:46:22,479 --> 02:46:30,960 recommendations and it may may be presented in a um in a format that it 2109 02:46:28,240 --> 02:46:34,640 shows suggested, you know, positive or negative responses and then the planning 2110 02:46:33,120 --> 02:46:38,479 commission would discuss that further and and come up with their findings on 2111 02:46:36,560 --> 02:46:43,439 that basis. But we're trying to make sure that we get all the um all the 2112 02:46:41,359 --> 02:46:48,240 details in correctly so that it's very clear on what basis the decision is 2113 02:46:45,200 --> 02:46:53,200 being made for each of those points. So, um, if we don't get to that in a couple 2114 02:46:51,359 --> 02:46:58,399 of months, we'll try to fit that in. But, um, a little bit of change in case 2115 02:46:55,680 --> 02:47:02,720 law that came out in late 2024. So, we're just trying to make sure we have 2116 02:46:59,680 --> 02:47:07,600 our procedures in line with that. Um, I think that covered everything we 2117 02:47:05,600 --> 02:47:11,920 talked about. And the last thing I wanted to let you know is that I have 2118 02:47:09,200 --> 02:47:17,200 turned in my resignation. Um I'll be retiring retiring um from the city at 2119 02:47:15,520 --> 02:47:23,600 the end of the year. My last day in the office um will be December 1st and they 2120 02:47:21,120 --> 02:47:27,279 will be discussing process moving forward at the next planning or next 2121 02:47:25,279 --> 02:47:31,920 city commission meeting. But I did want to let you know that. So I'll do my best 2122 02:47:29,040 --> 02:47:36,960 to try and you know I I'll be here until then definitely working with Dalton and 2123 02:47:34,080 --> 02:47:40,240 and everybody else. But um there will be somebody else that [laughter] will will 2124 02:47:38,640 --> 02:47:42,080 be assisting at some point. We'll miss your guidance. 2125 02:47:41,439 --> 02:47:44,080 » Oh, thank you. >> It's been wonderful. 2126 02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:48,240 » Thanks. >> Yeah. 2127 02:47:45,680 --> 02:47:52,560 » All right. Any questions to staff from commissioners? 2128 02:47:49,680 --> 02:47:56,800 » Just maybe to mention that three of us may have to be in the hallway for a 2129 02:47:54,240 --> 02:48:03,040 while next month. So hopefully we can determine that that we have um enough 2130 02:48:00,560 --> 02:48:03,920 people present to have the meeting. >> Point. 2131 02:48:03,439 --> 02:48:07,840 » Absolutely. >> One of the items on the agenda. 2132 02:48:06,160 --> 02:48:11,200 » Yeah. If anyone's aware of them not being able to attend the October 1st 2133 02:48:09,520 --> 02:48:15,600 meeting, uh please let us know as soon as possible because we are operating on 2134 02:48:13,680 --> 02:48:20,800 a pretty thin margin to make a quorum for the uh Harbor Shores parcel 5D. 2135 02:48:18,399 --> 02:48:23,840 » Okay. >> All right. If no further business, I'll 2136 02:48:22,560 --> 02:48:28,960 entertain a motion. >> I'll make a motion to 2137 02:48:25,760 --> 02:48:32,279 » Okay. Miss Bersack and >> Miss Porter. 2138 02:48:33,359 --> 02:48:38,880 » We have to vote. We have to vote on the motion. motion. 2139 02:48:36,720 --> 02:48:43,040 » What I We have to vote on the motion. >> Vote on the motion. 2140 02:48:40,640 --> 02:48:48,240 » Those in favor say I. I. >> Those against. 2141 02:48:44,960 --> 02:48:53,200 » Is it okay that it's a >> meeting a journ that calls roll? 2142 02:48:51,840 --> 02:48:59,000 » I never know when he has to call roll and when he doesn't. 2143 02:48:54,560 --> 02:48:59,000 » You don't. I know. That's for sure.