[1:58] And, uh,
[2:04] So, I'm gonna read some typical
[2:06] opening remarks. Please be aware
[2:06] that there are microphones at
[2:08] your desk that will pick up
[2:08] conversations easily.
[2:12] Are we being recorded now? OK,
[2:14] and this is being recorded, um,
[2:16] these mics are connected to the
[2:18] live stream so the public may
[2:19] watch the proceedings.
[2:22] The property tax relief and
[2:24] modernization Working Group
[2:26] meeting is called to order in
[2:28] accordance with House rules,
[2:30] members of the public are able
[2:30] to participate either in person
[2:32] or virtually through Zoom
[2:33] Webinar.
[2:36] The public can participate
[2:38] virtually by registering through
[2:40] the meeting link posted on the
[2:40] General Assembly website.
[2:44] Instructions providing public
[2:46] comment are available on the
[2:48] website under this working
[2:50] group's meeting notice. Written
[2:52] comments may be submitted to
[2:54] Justin Doherty at Delaware.gov.
[2:56] Any comments received within 24
[2:58] hours after the hearing will be
[3:00] included in the public record.
[3:02] Members of the public physically
[3:04] present for the meeting may sign
[3:06] up on the speaker list located
[3:07] by the door of the hearing room.
[3:10] I'd like to begin today's
[3:12] meeting by taking roll call
[3:16] attendance to the members, um
[3:16] uh it's still see it.
[3:18] I don't know if that needs to
[3:19] be.
[3:22] Starting,
[3:24] OK.
[3:26] OK.
[3:30] We're just checking to make sure
[3:30] that that is actually the live
[3:34] stream is actually active. Uh,
[3:36] so we begin by taking roll call,
[3:38] uh, Frank Burns chair here.
[3:42] Send Senator Russ Huxtable,
[3:42] co-chair. I'm here.
[3:46] Representative Mike Smith had a
[3:46] family emergency this morning
[3:48] and emailed that he would not be
[3:49] in attendance.
[3:52] Senator Richardson, Senator
[3:54] Richard Senton.
[3:54] Senator Richardson, Senator
[3:55] Richardson, Senator,
[3:55] Richard Senton.
[3:56] That's, it's correct on the
[3:58] other side. Oh, OK.
[4:00] Good. Uh, 50/50.
[4:00] Senator Richardson, Senator
[4:01] Richard Senton.
[4:01] It's, it's cracked on the other
[4:02] side. Oh, OK.
[4:02] Good. Uh, 50-fifty.
[4:04] OK. So, uh, very good. Gina
[4:06] Jennings, here. Thank you.
[4:08] Susan Durham here.
[4:10] David Del Grande.
[4:14] Uh, Secretary Michael Smith,
[4:16] Secretary of Finance,
[4:18] not Newcastle.
[4:20] We've got a couple typos which
[4:22] we will deal with. Um,
[4:26] Deputy Director Anne Desaire.
[4:27] Deputy Director Anne Desali,
[4:28] Deputy Director Anne Desale,
[4:28] pregnant. All right, thank you.
[4:32] Steve Lucas, who is here, um,
[4:34] Jeff, Jeff Menzer is attending
[4:36] on his behalf. OK, great. Thank
[4:37] you.
[4:44] Uh, Mone Smith.
[4:44] Thank you.
[4:46] It's our own cage.
[4:52] Janelle Cornwall.
[4:54] Cynthia Batty.
[4:54] Yeah.
[5:00] Director Matt Heckles, OK.
[5:04] Jerry Heisler, I know he's not
[5:06] able to attend today. Um,
[5:08] unfortunately, this meeting is
[5:10] scheduled on Yom Kippur.
[5:12] And so he, he is.
[5:16] Unable to attend today. Tom
[5:16] Cook. Yeah.
[5:18] Bob Vacca.
[5:20] Here
[5:20] Thank you.
[5:26] Senator or Secretary Don
[5:28] Clifton. I'm here. Very good.
[5:30] And Sydney Grossnickel.
[5:32] Here.
[5:34] Great, thank you. So we have a
[5:36] quorum in case we actually take
[5:40] any votes on anything today. I
[5:42] don't anticipate we'll be voting
[5:44] on anything today, but, uh,
[5:46] motions can always come up, so
[5:48] it's good to know that we have
[5:48] um.
[5:50] Thanks, I'd like to go around
[5:50] the room now.
[5:52] And if you could just introduce
[5:53] yourself.
[5:54] By name,
[5:56] Title
[5:58] and organization, and whether,
[6:00] and then let us know if you're
[6:04] serving as a designee for uh
[6:04] another member.
[6:06] OK, so I guess we will start.
[6:12] To the right. Well, Frank Burns,
[6:14] State Legislature House. All
[6:16] right, so, uh, Russ Huxville,
[6:16] To the right. Well, Frank Burns
[6:17] State Legislature House. All
[6:18] right, so, uh, Russ Huxtable,
[6:18] state senator for the 6th Senate
[6:19] district in Sussex County.
[6:20] Michael Smith, uh, secretary of
[6:21] Finance, the state of Delaware.
[6:24] I'm Don Clifton. I'm the
[6:26] secretary of the Delaware
[6:26] Department of Agriculture.
[6:30] And I'm Sally. I'm the deputy
[6:32] director of Office of Management
[6:34] and Budget, and I'm Brian
[6:36] Maxwell's designee today.
[6:38] Good morning, Matt Heckles. I'm
[6:39] the director of DSAT.
[6:42] Cynthia Badie, I'm a citizen
[6:44] here representing the taxpayers.
[6:48] Mone Smith, currently president
[6:50] of the Delaware Association of
[6:52] School Business Officials. Thank
[6:54] you. Tom Cook, um, actually
[6:56] former Secretary of Finance and
[6:58] a proud grandfather.
[7:02] Janelle Cornwall, executive
[7:02] Director of the League of Local
[7:04] Governments. Good morning. I'm
[7:06] David Del Grande, uh, Chief
[7:08] Financial Officer in Yassa
[7:08] County.
[7:10] Susan Durham, finance director
[7:11] for Kent Kent.
[7:12] Gina Jennings, finance director
[7:14] and Chief Operating Officer for
[7:14] Sussex County.
[7:18] Senator Brian Richardson, my
[7:20] area is from Bridgeville to
[7:24] Delmore. Very good. And I would
[7:24] also like uh if
[7:28] You, Justin, if you could
[7:28] introduce yourself and
[7:30] on the Justin Docherty,
[7:32] legislative aide of
[7:32] Representative Burns.
[7:36] And I believe Senator Huxtable's
[7:37] aide is online.
[7:40] And I would like you also to.
[7:42] Introduce yourself, giving us
[7:44] the tech support. Uh, uh, I'm
[7:44] Adam.
[7:46] OK,
[7:50] thank you, and I just wanna note
[7:52] as, as he introduced himself,
[7:54] but Senator Heckles is here to
[7:54] uh adjust the the.
[7:56] A roll call.
[7:58] OK.
[8:02] Now just a little bit of uh.
[8:04] Housekeeping,
[8:06] One of the things that I think
[8:10] has worked well in organizations
[8:12] like this. We have a fairly big
[8:14] group. It's not gigantic, but if
[8:16] people want to be recognized
[8:18] online. Uh, they will raise
[8:20] their hand and uh Justin will
[8:24] see that, but in the room, if
[8:24] you want to be recognized,
[8:25] please turn your
[8:28] This up, and then I will try
[8:30] very hard to see who goes up
[8:32] first and make sure that I get
[8:34] to the people in order. I'm sure
[8:36] I'll make some mistakes. Just I
[8:38] will get to everybody
[8:40] eventually. That's um all for
[8:41] that.
[8:46] OK, um, so there's a copy of the
[8:48] House concurrent resolution
[8:50] that's included in the packet
[8:50] that you've got in there.
[8:52] Each of the directness of the
[8:54] resolution has been adopted into
[8:56] modules we will review together
[8:57] throughout our works.
[9:00] Please note that module
[9:02] schedule is not the same order
[9:02] as the language in the
[9:03] resolution.
[9:06] So now,
[9:10] We may have other things that
[9:10] people come up with that are
[9:11] not.
[9:12] On this schedule, these are the
[9:14] things we have to make sure we
[9:15] cover.
[9:18] So we need, because that's what
[9:20] the resolution says I do not
[9:22] wanna go off target.
[9:26] In our discussions, we may add
[9:26] an extra.
[9:28] Meeting we have uh time at the
[9:30] end of our schedule.
[9:32] Um, you know, when our meeting
[9:34] dates are, are scheduled too. So
[9:36] if there's something that comes
[9:37] up that the.
[9:40] Group wants to discuss and
[9:42] agrees to discuss, we can do,
[9:44] that's not a part of the
[9:46] scheduled, uh, discussion
[9:50] topics, we can do so uh when
[9:52] we're getting towards the end of
[9:52] our meetings together.
[9:54] Cause again, it's really
[9:58] important. We have to cover
[9:59] those things that are in the
[9:59] resolution, and I don't want to
[10:00] go down rabbit holes or get
[10:01] sidetracked.
[10:02] OK.
[10:04] Um.
[10:08] So is the schedule amenable to
[10:10] everyone, right? This is.
[10:10] You know, sort of.
[10:14] What seemed reasonable? Is there
[10:16] a discussion around the actual
[10:17] schedule itself?
[10:20] Yes, Cynthia, um, the
[10:22] twenty-eighth, I'm not available
[10:24] on, I'm gonna, oh sorry, of
[10:26] December. I, I'm guessing a lot
[10:26] of people won't be available.
[10:30] That seems like an unreasonable
[10:30] date.
[10:31] OK.
[10:32] Um,
[10:36] So at least I hope you won't be
[10:36] available.
[10:38] So that's, that's a very good
[10:42] point, and I'm gonna, so ask, I
[10:44] guess for a vote on that. We
[10:46] want to strike the December
[10:48] twenty-eighth and then adjust
[10:48] the schedule and move all the
[10:49] rest of them.
[10:52] Um, you know, one back further
[10:53] on the schedule.
[10:54] We do have time. We do have
[10:56] empty dates towards the end.
[11:00] Is that is, so I'll go around,
[11:02] um, so moved. Yes.
[11:02] OK, do you have a son.
[11:06] OK, OK,
[11:08] uh, then let's call the roll.
[11:10] OK, um.
[11:12] Greg Burns, yes, Senator
[11:13] Huxtable.
[11:16] Leonard Richardson, Gina
[11:16] Jennings.
[11:18] Susan Durham.
[11:20] David Del Grande. Yes.
[11:22] Michael Smith,
[11:24] oh
[11:26] he's
[11:26] Secretary Michael Smith. Sorry,
[11:28] I have to specify. OK, um,
[11:30] Deputy Director Anne Vasali,
[11:31] yes.
[11:32] Jeff, who's in for Steve Lucas?
[11:38] Yes. OK. Monet Smith. Yes.
[11:40] Cernca, not here.
[11:42] Uh, Janelle Cornwell. Yes,
[11:44] Cynthia Badding, yes.
[11:46] Director Matt Heckles. Yes,
[11:46] yeah.
[11:48] Uh,
[11:50] Tom Cook, yes.
[11:56] Secretary Don Clifton. Yes,
[11:56] Sydney Grossnipple.
[11:57] Yes.
[12:00] OK, so that passes. So we will
[12:04] strike the December 28th date
[12:06] and move the other uh discussion
[12:08] topics,
[12:08] one meeting date further out.
[12:12] Uh, just for attendance, so Ron
[12:12] Uh, just for attendance, Saron C
[12:13] Uh, just for attendance, Saron
[12:14] Cage just joined, uh, and Saron
[12:16] Cade has just joined online, so
[12:18] I'm here. All right, thank you.
[12:22] So Saran, did you want to vote
[12:24] on that? We were looking to
[12:26] strike the December
[12:28] 28th meeting because many people
[12:30] will not be available and move
[12:31] uh the other meetings.
[12:34] Back one day further in the
[12:34] schedule.
[12:38] That's fine for me. Thank you.
[12:39] Yeah.
[12:40] All right.
[12:48] Very good, so again, you know,
[12:48] it's every other Monday, 10 to
[12:49] 12.
[12:50] Um,
[12:52] I'm glad that that concern came
[12:54] up because it was a very good
[12:54] one.
[13:00] So now I'm gonna go through a, a
[13:02] presentation, you have a copy of
[13:04] the presentation at your uh at
[13:06] the on the table with your
[13:06] packet.
[13:08] So I guess we're gonna do this.
[13:12] With slides? Yes. OK.
[13:16] So, um,
[13:20] We did, we did that so far. So
[13:22] now we're into the module one
[13:24] presentation. Module one just is
[13:28] sort of an update on things that
[13:28] have been done and the working
[13:29] group charge.
[13:30] Um,
[13:36] So it tasks us with examining
[13:36] potential reforms.
[13:38] Delaware's property tax system
[13:42] to provide long-term relief for
[13:44] Delawareans. The resolution
[13:44] directs us to evaluate several
[13:46] policy approaches to property
[13:47] tax relief.
[13:50] Which are organized into
[13:52] individual modules, focused, uh,
[13:54] for focused discussion on each
[13:56] topic. At the conclusion of our
[13:58] work, we will be developing a
[14:00] final report and
[14:02] recommendations, including
[14:04] potential legislative language
[14:06] for consideration by the 154th
[14:08] General Assembly.
[14:10] OK.
[14:12] So we can go through the modules
[14:13] now.
[14:16] We can start module one. This is
[14:18] really, that's today, we're
[14:20] going over what the charge is to
[14:24] the group and legislative
[14:26] action, um, overview of recent
[14:26] legislative actions.
[14:30] Existing property tax relief
[14:32] programs and criteria for
[14:34] evaluating potential property
[14:34] tax relief reforms.
[14:38] So, um, homestead exemptions and
[14:40] owner occupancy relief,
[14:42] reviewing potential statewide
[14:44] and local option homestead
[14:46] exemption models including fixed
[14:48] dollar and percentage-based
[14:52] exemptions, enhanced relief for
[14:54] seniors and policies intended to
[14:56] support long-term owner
[14:58] occupancy and neighborhood
[14:58] stability.
[15:02] Uh, the 3rd module will be
[15:02] circuit breaker and income tax
[15:03] base.
[15:06] Property tax relief, evaluating
[15:08] whether Delaware should
[15:10] establish programs that provide
[15:12] relief when property tax burdens
[15:14] exceed a defined percentage of
[15:16] household income, including
[15:18] consideration of eligibility
[15:20] standards, renter participation,
[15:22] refund structures, and
[15:24] coordination with existing
[15:24] relief programs.
[15:30] Module 4 will be assessment, uh,
[15:32] growth limitations and taxpayer
[15:34] stability mechanisms, setting
[15:36] approaches used in other states
[15:38] to reduce sudden increases in
[15:42] taxable assessed value or annual
[15:44] tax liability including
[15:46] phase-ins, assessment caps,
[15:48] acquisition value systems, and
[15:50] other stabilization measures.
[15:54] OK, uh, module 5, tax deferral
[15:56] and payment flexibility
[15:58] programs, reviewing approaches
[16:00] utilized in other states to
[16:02] allow eligible homeowners,
[16:04] particularly seniors and fixed
[16:05] OK, uh, module 5, tax deferral
[16:05] and payment flexibility
[16:06] programs, reviewing approaches
[16:06] utilized in other states to
[16:07] allow eligible homeowners,
[16:08] particularly seniors and
[16:08] fixed-income residents to defer,
[16:09] phase, or otherwise structure
[16:10] property tax payments while
[16:14] maintaining local revenue
[16:14] stability.
[16:18] And module 6, property
[16:20] reclassification and
[16:20] differential tax treatment,
[16:22] assessing whether Delaware
[16:24] should consider to allow
[16:26] differentiating tax treatment
[16:28] among residential, commercial,
[16:30] industrial, agricultural,
[16:32] rentals, seasonal, vacation, and
[16:34] other categories of property for
[16:38] assessment or taxation purposes,
[16:40] including the potential impacts
[16:42] on tax equity, housing,
[16:44] affordability, economic
[16:44] competitiveness.
[16:46] And local revenues.
[16:48] Module 7.
[16:52] School tax equity and local
[16:54] government fiscal stability
[16:56] analyzing how potential tax
[16:58] relief measures could affect
[17:00] school district funding,
[17:02] referendum requirements,
[17:04] municipal and county revenues,
[17:06] and constitutional standards
[17:06] relating to uniform taxation.
[17:08] Bye.
[17:12] Housing affordability, uh,
[17:14] module, housing affordability
[17:16] and economic impact, considering
[17:18] the broader effects of property
[17:20] taxation on housing
[17:20] affordability.
[17:24] Senior retention, renters, small
[17:26] businesses, neighborhood
[17:28] stability, and statewide
[17:28] economic competitiveness.
[17:30] Module 9.
[17:32] Administrative and data
[17:33] requirements.
[17:36] Identifying the staffing,
[17:38] technology, implementation
[17:40] timelines for fraud prevention
[17:42] strategies and data
[17:44] infrastructure necessary to
[17:46] administer potential
[17:48] modernization and relief
[17:48] programs effectively.
[17:50] Module 10.
[17:54] Uniformity, statewide standards,
[17:54] and local options.
[17:58] The working group shall consider
[18:00] both statewide standards and
[18:00] local option frameworks,
[18:02] recognizing the differing
[18:04] economic conditions and fiscal
[18:06] structures of Newcastle, Kent,
[18:08] and Sussex counties, and
[18:10] Delaware's municipal
[18:12] municipalities and school
[18:12] districts.
[18:16] Module 11, the working group,
[18:18] it's discussion and development
[18:19] of final recommendations.
[18:22] The working group shall produce
[18:24] findings and recommendations,
[18:26] including draft legislative
[18:26] language where appropriate.
[18:30] For consideration by the 154th
[18:30] General Assembly.
[18:32] Within 6 months of its
[18:32] convening.
[18:36] So right now we're scheduled.
[18:38] We have dates set aside to go
[18:40] through, uh, I think March 22nd
[18:44] and uh you know, we can go a
[18:46] little bit further in there, but
[18:48] we do wanna have recommendations
[18:50] to go forward in time for them
[18:54] to be considered in this leg of
[18:56] the legislature, so we can't,
[18:58] you know, we can't have
[18:58] something coming out.
[19:00] being suggested in
[19:02] Mid April or later, it just
[19:04] things get backed up at the end
[19:06] of session. So realistically,
[19:08] um, we wanna make sure we have
[19:10] these things and our
[19:12] recommendations and with enough
[19:12] time.
[19:14] And I think I can speak for
[19:16] Senator Richardson and Senator
[19:18] Huxtable as well. Things get
[19:18] jammed up at the end of the
[19:20] session. This is an important
[19:22] thing. We don't want this to be,
[19:24] uh, you know, end of session
[19:26] rush to try to get it through.
[19:26] OK, um.
[19:30] So we went over the proposed
[19:31] schedule.
[19:34] I guess we are now out to
[19:36] February 22nd, we've, since
[19:38] we've shifted things down and
[19:38] dropped the December
[19:40] twenty-eighth date, so it'd be
[19:42] great if we can be done by the
[19:43] end of.
[19:46] February, if we have to go into
[19:48] March, we can. Uh, I want to
[19:49] make sure,
[19:50] you know, we.
[19:50] This
[19:54] I would like us to be able to
[19:56] come to consensus on some
[19:58] things. I don't know that that's
[20:00] possible, but I'm hopeful that,
[20:02] you know, it's, it's gonna be.
[20:06] Um, so when we go to
[20:06] recommendations, I think I'll
[20:07] start now.
[20:10] What is it that we want to have
[20:11] as the threshold?
[20:14] For putting a recommendation
[20:14] forward.
[20:18] Um, you know, as a group, do we
[20:19] want it to be.
[20:22] Simple majority we want it to
[20:22] be.
[20:26] 75%, you know, what is it,
[20:28] Because we're making very
[20:30] serious recommendations here.
[20:32] And I don't, this is up to the
[20:32] group, like.
[20:34] Does anyone want to make a
[20:36] motion that that we uh set a
[20:38] particular threshold before
[20:44] advancing recommendations uh to
[20:44] the General Assembly.
[20:46] Mhm.
[20:48] Tom Cook.
[20:52] Yes, my experience, sometimes
[20:52] you have
[20:56] ideas that come up that there's
[20:56] a unanimous, you know,
[20:58] everyone's behind it. There's
[21:00] other ones that, you know, maybe
[21:02] there's a different viewpoints.
[21:04] so maybe the, the
[21:04] recommendations could be broken
[21:08] down into, these are the list of
[21:08] ones that there was a complete
[21:10] consensus, and these are ones
[21:10] that.
[21:14] Had a, you know, a majority
[21:14] view, it's just an option.
[21:18] OK, but I think complete
[21:20] consensus might be tough. If you
[21:22] want to say like a 2/3 or above,
[21:24] and then, you know, majority but
[21:26] not 2/3 or above, would that be
[21:27] reasonable?
[21:30] So I, there's a motion now to
[21:32] have two tiers of
[21:34] recommendation, one that is um.
[21:36] 2/3 and above and one that's
[21:37] majority.
[21:38] And is there a second?
[21:44] Mm
[21:46] It's two different things. I'll
[21:46] It's two different things. So,
[21:48] I'll second the motion. I have a
[21:49] question on the motion.
[21:50] Oh, ask away.
[21:52] Well, the first you have to
[21:54] approve the motion. OK, so it's
[21:56] been seconded. The motion is
[21:58] seconded and before the group.
[21:58] Sorry.
[22:00] So just to clarify the
[22:02] definition of majority to be a
[22:04] majority of all the
[22:06] Appointees or designees, not
[22:07] those present.
[22:10] I just want to clarify that and
[22:12] then there'll be two categories
[22:14] a 2/3 and above and a majority
[22:16] and above, yeah, I second that
[22:18] question. OK, so they had a
[22:20] total all members, not members
[22:22] present. Correct, OK,
[22:26] for their designs, their
[22:26] designs.
[22:30] Yes, Cynthia Baer, baby. Would
[22:32] that be we would make that
[22:36] segregation per issue and decide
[22:36] it would be per recommendation
[22:38] per recommendation, all right,
[22:40] because I, as, as the taxpayer
[22:42] advocate and still trying to
[22:44] understand my role. Um, I just
[22:45] wanna make sure.
[22:46] As the advocate that, that.
[22:50] And the only one I know of on
[22:52] this group, although we all
[22:54] advocate for ourselves, um, that
[22:54] it's not overwhelmed in.
[22:58] You know, giant majorities,
[22:58] that's my only concern.
[23:02] OK.
[23:06] So can we have a vote on any
[23:06] other discussion on the motion?
[23:10] OK, can we have a vote?
[23:12] Frank Burns, yes.
[23:16] Uh yes. Yes, Michael Smith, John
[23:17] Clifton, yes.
[23:18] And Vali.
[23:22] Yes.
[23:28] Oh, sorry, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[23:30] Yes. Yes. Yes.
[23:30] Yes.
[23:32] And to the people online.
[23:36] Jeff Mezer, yes.
[23:40] Yes.
[23:42] Bob Vaca, yes.
[23:50] Cron Cade, yes.
[23:58] OK.
[24:00] Um,
[24:04] Sounds good. I'm happy that
[24:06] that's because it's always good
[24:08] to know in advance what the
[24:08] thresholds are, because we will
[24:09] have discussions.
[24:12] I say I'm hoping we can come to
[24:14] complete consensus on things,
[24:16] but that might not be possible
[24:16] and to know in advance, sort of.
[24:18] Because at the end of this, we
[24:19] were.
[24:20] You know, where we already knew
[24:22] there were contentious issues
[24:24] and we try to set thresholds,
[24:26] that would be problematic in my
[24:26] viewpoint, so.
[24:28] OK, um,
[24:30] Oh.
[24:38] So are there any additional
[24:38] sorry yeah.
[24:40] That
[24:42] It's
[24:42] He's picture,
[24:42] so.
[24:44] We're going to go an overview of
[24:46] recent legislative actions.
[24:48] So we can go through a timeline.
[24:50] Things um.
[24:56] In 2024 and 2025, 1st statewide
[24:58] reassessment in over 40 years
[24:58] was done.
[25:00] It led to significant hardship
[25:02] for some property owners as
[25:04] years of market changers were
[25:04] absorbed all at once.
[25:08] I would like to, and, and it's
[25:10] pointed out here in New Castle
[25:12] County, a dramatic decrease in
[25:14] the relative value of commercial
[25:16] properties led to a significant
[25:18] increase in residential property
[25:18] owner's share of the tax burden.
[25:22] So this, um, there are a couple
[25:23] of school districts.
[25:24] Especially up in New Castle
[25:25] County.
[25:28] that have big segments of
[25:32] downtown Wilmington, um, as part
[25:32] of their tax base, a lot of
[25:34] those properties were commercial
[25:35] office buildings.
[25:38] That the value of office space
[25:40] since pandemic dropped
[25:42] precipitously, so all of a
[25:44] sudden a lot of the tax base had
[25:46] disappeared, and then the
[25:48] With the single rate, it all
[25:49] fell on the homeowners.
[25:52] And it was such that um.
[25:54] You know, we were talking about.
[25:56] Uh, you know.
[26:00] Doubling people's taxes, taxes
[26:02] going up by thousands of dollars
[26:04] for modest homes, um.
[26:06] And this, it just wasn't
[26:08] tenable. We had a lot of
[26:08] especially.
[26:10] You know, if you're paying it
[26:10] off through your mortgage, it's
[26:12] one thing you don't see it.
[26:14] But we had a lot of elderly
[26:18] individuals who have paid off
[26:20] their mortgage, who paid their
[26:22] tax bill all at once, and they
[26:24] usually have set aside what they
[26:26] anticipate their tax bill will
[26:28] be and they were, it was an
[26:28] extremely precarious situation.
[26:32] So then in August, the special
[26:33] session was called.
[26:36] And legislation was passed to
[26:36] address immediate relief for
[26:38] residential property owners.
[26:42] It included efforts to split tax
[26:43] rates. And again, this is not.
[26:46] I want to point out that the
[26:48] legislature didn't split any tax
[26:50] rates to allowed the school
[26:52] districts to, if they felt they
[26:52] needed to, so.
[26:56] Even though the enabling
[26:56] legislation was passed by the
[26:58] legislature. The decision to
[27:00] split rates or not split rates
[27:02] were made by the individual
[27:04] school districts, and many did
[27:06] not split their rates. So that's
[27:08] something to keep in mind. I
[27:09] think uh.
[27:10] Oh.
[27:12] Well,
[27:14] yeah, I think that's something
[27:16] to really keep in mind when
[27:16] we're trying to address the
[27:17] issues.
[27:20] Thank you, Rippers. I think
[27:20] there was one thing you said,
[27:22] and, and I just wanna make sure
[27:22] cause I.
[27:26] I don't think you meant to say
[27:26] this, but you mentioned that you
[27:28] believed it was, it was the
[27:30] single rate that caused the
[27:32] issue, and I don't think it was
[27:32] a single rape that caused the
[27:36] issue. I think it was the the
[27:36] valuation of the commercial
[27:38] property that caused the issue.
[27:40] Not the simple thing, yeah.
[27:42] I didn't think I said the single
[27:44] rate had caused the issue, but
[27:46] that's, I didn't mean to, um,
[27:47] the property owners.
[27:50] We're in a bind and the
[27:52] Giving the school boards the
[27:54] flexibility to split the tax
[27:56] rates was.
[27:58] The immediate solution that was
[28:00] proffered at the time. As we
[28:02] discuss all these other things
[28:04] that we're gonna be discussing,
[28:06] None of them will be easy, and
[28:06] you'll see why.
[28:08] Um, in a short time frame, I
[28:10] think those things can be done.
[28:14] Someone online had their hand up
[28:16] who wanted to speak. Yeah, this
[28:16] is uh Saron Cade up here in
[28:18] Wilmington. I just wanted to
[28:20] point out, um, uh, some, some of
[28:22] our issues were related to
[28:24] commercial properties, but I
[28:26] don't wanna take the eye our eye
[28:28] off the ball on the reality that
[28:30] um the way that mass appraisals
[28:34] are done, um, make it very
[28:36] difficult to do, to do them
[28:38] accurately in urban areas.
[28:42] Where you don't necessarily have
[28:44] a homogeneous housing stock, um,
[28:46] that you can utilize. So, while
[28:48] I know for some of the public
[28:50] it's, it's easy just to say the
[28:52] commercial properties were rated
[28:54] higher and the residentials took
[28:54] the burden. It's much deeper
[28:58] than that in um urban
[29:00] environments and um uh and is
[29:02] related to the idea that, you
[29:04] know, for the city of
[29:06] Wilmington, the only uh uh
[29:08] measure that was really utilized
[29:09] was
[29:12] Cals, which in an environment
[29:14] like Wilmington where you get a
[29:16] lot of house flips, um, it can
[29:18] skew the, the value of
[29:20] surrounding properties to the
[29:22] value of the sale versus the
[29:26] reality of what those properties
[29:28] are if you don't have other
[29:30] measures to determine, uh, uh,
[29:31] the value of those properties
[29:32] internally and externally
[29:34] through appraisals or other
[29:38] means. So, while, while I know
[29:38] that the commercial piece.
[29:42] was very big throughout the
[29:44] county. Wilmington's was much
[29:46] deeper than just that, and so I
[29:46] wanna make sure that we hit on
[29:50] those things as we get into this
[29:52] topic and, and, um, don't leave
[29:54] it to just the bifurcated rates.
[29:56] OK, but I do want to point out
[29:58] there is another working group
[29:58] that's already actually started
[30:00] that is actually looking at all
[30:02] of those issues. That's being
[30:04] headed up by Representative
[30:08] Cromer, and they're looking at
[30:08] basically how do you get these
[30:09] assessments right?
[30:12] And the issues that went wrong.
[30:16] So, although I, I agree that if
[30:16] I made it, if I made it too
[30:20] simplistic in my explanation of
[30:21] all that went wrong, um.
[30:24] I am sort of trying to not make
[30:26] this meeting last till midnight,
[30:28] so I got you, I got you. So I,
[30:30] but I, I understand that and
[30:32] thank you for bringing that up
[30:32] because there were a lot of
[30:34] issues, um.
[30:36] About the, the, uh.
[30:38] Technical.
[30:40] Reliability of the reassessment.
[30:44] And you know, those that is
[30:44] actually being handled by a
[30:45] different group.
[30:50] So, um, I'm hopeful that they
[30:52] will come to the conclusions and
[30:52] come forward with things that.
[30:54] Will prevent that from happening
[30:55] in the future.
[31:00] OK, so August 12th, this special
[31:02] session was called and
[31:04] legislation was passed to
[31:04] address immediate relief for
[31:08] residential property owners, um,
[31:10] allowing the split rates for the
[31:12] school districts and counties to
[31:12] charge higher tax rates on
[31:14] non-residential properties.
[31:18] Fall 2025 Special reassessment
[31:19] Committee was formed.
[31:22] Tasked with investigating the
[31:24] statewide property reassessment
[31:24] and providing a full and
[31:26] transparent accounting of the
[31:28] reassessment process and to
[31:30] recommend legislation that could
[31:32] improve the process and provide
[31:33] fairness to all taxpayers.
[31:36] Uh, there, that out of that came
[31:38] 8 additional pieces of
[31:38] legislation.
[31:40] Um.
[31:42] And
[31:44] Uh,
[31:46] Part of that is the resolution
[31:48] that created this group.
[31:54] So and it's a split rate uh
[31:56] litigation, the split rate was
[31:56] challenged by a coalition of
[31:58] landlords and commercial
[32:00] property owners, arguing that
[32:02] the authority given to school
[32:04] districts to establish what
[32:06] rates was unconstitutional and
[32:08] resulted in a misplaced tax
[32:08] burden.
[32:12] Chancery Court ultimately upheld
[32:12] the split rates established
[32:14] under HB 242.
[32:20] In November 13th of 2025, the
[32:20] second special session was
[32:22] called. Due to the litigation,
[32:24] revised tax bills were
[32:26] significantly delayed and
[32:28] additional legislation was
[32:30] passed to extend the deadline
[32:30] for the payment of property
[32:31] taxes.
[32:34] Then in the 2026 regular
[32:38] session, additional legislation
[32:40] drafted by the Joint Special
[32:40] Reassessment Committee was
[32:42] drafted and considered by the
[32:44] General Assembly during this
[32:44] year's session.
[32:46] Uh,
[32:54] So then there's a nice picture
[32:56] of the general assembly.
[32:58] Meeting room with no one in it.
[33:00] OK, um.
[33:06] So the regular session, there
[33:10] was SB 228 um and SB 230, I'm
[33:12] sorry, SB 228. Pardon me, you
[33:13] skipped the page.
[33:18] So specialist, I'm sorry.
[33:22] So a special session, um.
[33:26] In August 2025 allowed New
[33:28] Castle County to modify the
[33:30] school property tax exemption
[33:30] amount.
[33:32] Uh,
[33:34] HB 240 required counties to
[33:36] issue refunds for overpayments
[33:38] of $50 or more.
[33:40] All other overpayments credited
[33:42] to future tax bills?
[33:46] HB 241 requires counties to
[33:46] offer payment plans for school
[33:48] and county taxes for an increase
[33:50] of $300 or more.
[33:52] HV 242.
[33:56] It's always nice when there's
[33:58] construction going on. HV 242
[34:00] allow Newcastle County,
[34:02] Newcastle school districts to
[34:04] reset tax rates and create and
[34:08] create split rates and extended
[34:08] payment due date to 11-30-25.
[34:12] Uh, Senate substitute one for
[34:16] Senate Bill 202 requires New
[34:16] Castle County to prepare and
[34:18] submit quarterly reports on
[34:20] utilization of payment plans,
[34:24] reassessment appeals, and taxes
[34:24] collected and distributed.
[34:28] Senate bills 203 and 204
[34:30] codifies the authority of
[34:32] counties and municipalities to
[34:34] tax property with different
[34:34] rates for different
[34:36] classifications.
[34:38] And special session, November of
[34:42] 2025 for Senate Bill 20206
[34:46] extended property tax payment
[34:48] deadlines to December 31, 2025
[34:52] for the 2025, 2026 tax year.
[34:54] OK.
[34:58] The regular session in January
[35:00] through June of 2026.
[35:02] There was Senate Bill 228.
[35:06] Granted authority to New Castle
[35:08] County to review and correct
[35:08] evaluation errors of
[35:10] non-residential tax parsons.
[35:12] And I think probably the one
[35:13] that.
[35:16] Got the most attention was the
[35:16] Amazon warehouse.
[35:18] It had initially been assessed
[35:19] that.
[35:22] About $100 million on
[35:24] reassessment. Its assessment
[35:26] went up to $300 million.
[35:28] That added millions of dollars
[35:30] to the back on the tax rolls,
[35:32] Um, but there's also appeals
[35:34] that have been going on. So
[35:36] there's been a lot of ups and
[35:36] downs, sort of trying to figure
[35:38] out exactly what the tax base
[35:39] is.
[35:42] HB 461 gave special authority to
[35:44] school districts in New Castle
[35:46] County to reset their tax rate
[35:50] for the 2026, 2027 tax year to
[35:52] account for, for these
[35:52] continuing adjustments.
[35:56] OK, because as the appeals have
[35:58] been going on and as these
[36:00] reassessments of commercial
[36:00] properties have been happening.
[36:02] The school districts are having
[36:04] changes to what their tax base
[36:06] is, so they, in order to be able
[36:07] to.
[36:08] Get the revenue they expect,
[36:10] they may have to adjust the
[36:12] rates and this gave them that
[36:14] ability. SV 230 granted subpoena
[36:16] power to all three counties to
[36:18] sufficiently access testimony
[36:20] evidence used to determine the
[36:22] fair market value of real
[36:22] property.
[36:26] HP 462 allows non-vocational
[36:28] school districts in New Castle
[36:28] County to continue setting split
[36:29] rates.
[36:34] HV 460 expanded permit data
[36:36] sharing requirements in New
[36:38] Castle County to prepare for the
[36:38] next reassessment.
[36:42] Um, I would say that's was
[36:44] partly in response to what Sarah
[36:45] Cade
[36:48] pointed out that there was not a
[36:48] good communication to the.
[36:50] Uh,
[36:56] Assessors and the county of
[36:56] which properties had had
[37:00] renovations done because the
[37:00] permit data was not forwarded,
[37:02] so it wasn't uh.
[37:04] I think there was a fall through
[37:06] in the sharing of data which
[37:08] also led to part of the problem
[37:10] with float towels is not being
[37:11] recognized that they had been
[37:11] flipped.
[37:14] And basically the flip tiles
[37:16] haven't been sold on a block at
[37:18] much higher, it had much higher
[37:18] value than the rest of the
[37:20] residences on the block.
[37:26] OK, um, SB 322 repeals school
[37:28] districts' ability to increase
[37:30] tax rates by up to 10% after a
[37:30] general reassessment.
[37:36] HCR 150 establishes the Property
[37:38] assessment Working Group NHCR
[37:42] 151 establishes the property tax
[37:42] relief and Modernization Working
[37:46] Group, which is us, so the, the
[37:48] technicalities of how the
[37:48] assessment is done is being
[37:50] handled by the other working
[37:52] group established under HCR 150.
[37:54] Yeah.
[38:00] We have pending legislation.
[38:02] but it's, it's not actually
[38:04] pending anymore, right, because.
[38:06] These were things that died on
[38:08] the vine when you have an
[38:10] election and a new legislature
[38:14] seated, all legislation is gone,
[38:14] it has to be reintroduced, but
[38:16] this, we'll go over the
[38:18] legislation that was in the
[38:18] pipeline at the end of the
[38:19] session.
[38:22] HV 72 changes the residency
[38:23] requirement.
[38:26] For seniors from 10 years to 3
[38:28] years as it was prior to 2017.
[38:32] That was in Appropriations
[38:32] Committee. I don't think it got
[38:33] out of committee.
[38:38] HB 73 raises senior property tax
[38:40] credit cap from $500 to $1000.
[38:42] That was in appropriations.
[38:46] HB 349 modifies the eligibility
[38:50] standard from 100% disability to
[38:52] 80% disability or greater for
[38:54] veterans to qualify for credit
[38:56] against school taxation on
[38:56] qualified property.
[38:58] That was also an appropriations.
[39:02] SB 149 creates a consistent
[39:04] process for counties and
[39:06] municipalities to exempt
[39:08] low income housing tax credit
[39:10] properties from property and
[39:12] school district taxes and that's
[39:14] uh that was on the Senate ready
[39:16] list, um.
[39:18] So it got through committee in
[39:18] the Senate, but did not.
[39:22] Get a vote in the Senate and
[39:24] comes to the House. SB 350
[39:26] creates a statewide system for
[39:28] classifying property by use and
[39:28] allows counties and school
[39:30] districts to use differential
[39:32] tax rates for different property
[39:34] types, and that was in the
[39:34] executive committee.
[39:36] Um,
[39:40] So they would need to be
[39:42] reinduced in 2027 for
[39:44] consideration by the assembly,
[39:45] um.
[39:50] Most, I would say, again, as we
[39:52] go through these, you'll see
[39:54] that there aren't easy answers,
[39:54] even though, yes.
[39:56] Um, I, I just wanna go back
[40:00] quickly to um the HCR 150
[40:02] stablishing Property Tax
[40:02] Assessment Working Group. If
[40:04] they're working now, can we be
[40:06] regularly given digital copies
[40:08] of their minutes so we see what
[40:10] they did. There's probably a
[40:10] real easy way to do it. I just
[40:12] don't know what it is, but it'd
[40:13] Um, I, I just wanna go back
[40:13] quickly to um the HCR 150
[40:14] stablishing Property Tax
[40:14] Assessment Working Group. If
[40:15] they're working now, can we be
[40:16] regularly given digital copies
[40:16] of their minutes so we see what
[40:17] they did. There's probably a
[40:18] real easy way to do it. I just
[40:18] don't know what it is, but it
[40:19] would be nice if we all were on
[40:20] the same page with what they
[40:20] were doing. Yeah, and they're
[40:21] looking at uh the technicalities
[40:21] of how the assessment is done.
[40:22] Which is
[40:24] Actually a separate issue from
[40:26] what we're working on, and it is
[40:26] available online, but I'll see
[40:27] if we can get that.
[40:30] That too. Thank you.
[40:34] OK,
[40:36] um, so they'd need to be
[40:38] reintroduced in 2027.
[40:42] OK, if we go then to statewide
[40:44] relief programs. These are
[40:46] programs that are in place now.
[40:48] Um.
[40:50] And so there's a senior school
[40:51] tax credit.
[40:54] Homeowners age 65 and over are
[40:56] eligible for 5.
[40:58] A credit of 50% off their school
[41:02] tax amount up to 500. There's no
[41:04] income requirements. Residents
[41:06] who moved to the state between
[41:08] 2013 and 2017, must have lived
[41:10] in Delaware for at least 3
[41:12] consecutive years, residents who
[41:14] moved to the state after 2018
[41:16] must have lived in Delaware for
[41:18] at least 10 consecutive years.
[41:19] OK.
[41:20] Now,
[41:22] These are very attractive.
[41:26] I mean these types of things,
[41:26] everyone always likes to do
[41:28] things for seniors. It's, yeah,
[41:32] legislators love doing that
[41:32] because, you know, that makes
[41:33] you look.
[41:36] Attractive to seniors and
[41:36] seniors are the most reliable
[41:38] voting block, so people tend to
[41:39] cater to seniors a lot.
[41:42] One of the things I'll point out
[41:43] with this is that.
[41:46] This tax credit is money that
[41:46] comes out of the state budget.
[41:50] To offset money that goes into
[41:51] school district budget.
[41:52] So, um.
[41:56] Yeah, that's something we need
[42:00] to keep in mind that this is not
[42:02] a, uh, school districts have
[42:02] their own elected.
[42:04] Members, school boards.
[42:08] They're responsible for how they
[42:08] do their budgets.
[42:12] And um it it may seem very easy
[42:14] to say the state can just step
[42:14] in and.
[42:16] Pay money, but that means
[42:18] everybody in the state gets
[42:18] burdened with with doing that.
[42:20] So just something to keep in
[42:24] mind, disabled veterans school
[42:26] tax credit, right now it'll,
[42:28] it's available to veterans with
[42:30] a 100% disability rating from
[42:32] the Department of Veteran
[42:32] Affairs.
[42:34] Must have legal domicile in
[42:36] Delaware for the past 3 years.
[42:38] And an individual cannot receive
[42:40] both the disabled veteran and
[42:41] senior tax credits.
[42:46] Then we're going to county by
[42:48] counties, county specific
[42:49] programs.
[42:50] New Castle County relief
[42:51] programs.
[42:56] The over 65 exemption, residents
[42:58] age 65 or older by July 1st of
[43:00] the current tax year may be
[43:02] eligible
[43:06] for up to the $173,000 for up to
[43:10] $173,000 to be subtracted from
[43:12] the total assessed value of
[43:12] their home
[43:14] Must be a resident of Delaware
[43:16] for at least 10 years and have a
[43:18] single or combined income of
[43:22] less than $65,000. So here we
[43:23] see something.
[43:24] It's um
[43:28] targeted both by age and
[43:30] disability exemption in New
[43:30] Castle County, disabled
[43:32] residents are eligible for an
[43:36] exemption of up to $427,000 to
[43:38] be subtracted from the total
[43:40] assessed value of their home.
[43:42] The total amount depended on the
[43:44] extent of the resident's
[43:46] disability and whether their
[43:46] disability is due to prior
[43:48] military service.
[43:52] So for the school for the
[43:52] property tax, you must be a
[43:54] Delaware resident for at least
[43:55] 10 years.
[43:56] And have a single or combined
[44:00] income of less than 65,000 for
[44:02] school tax, you must be a
[44:04] Delaware resident prior to July
[44:06] 1st of the current tax year and
[44:06] have an income of less than.
[44:10] Then $15,000 if you're single or
[44:12] $19,000 for a joint, joint
[44:13] income.
[44:14] Um,
[44:18] Also line of duty death
[44:20] exemption, the surviving spouse
[44:22] of a qualifying individual who
[44:24] dies in the line of duty may be
[44:26] eligible for a property tax
[44:27] exemption for up to 10 years.
[44:30] So
[44:30] the first in that time, the
[44:32] surviving spouse may not
[44:34] remarry, must be the titled
[44:36] owner of the property and must
[44:38] continue living in the home as a
[44:40] primary residence to retain that
[44:41] eligibility.
[44:44] There's some additional
[44:44] exemptions, historic property
[44:45] exemption.
[44:48] Farmland assessment exemption
[44:50] for agricultural property must
[44:52] Generate at least $1000 of
[44:53] income.
[44:56] Uh, and city of Wilmington
[44:56] exemption.
[44:58] Only eligible for newly
[45:00] constructed commercial and
[45:02] manufacturing properties in
[45:04] which site acquisition or
[45:06] construction cost exceeds
[45:06] $50,000.
[45:08] Yeah.
[45:12] Current Kent County relief
[45:13] programs.
[45:16] Over 65 intention.
[45:20] Residents aged 65 or older by
[45:22] May 31st, the current tax year
[45:24] may qualify for a reduction in
[45:24] their taxable assessment,
[45:26] reducing or potentially
[45:28] eliminating their property tax
[45:29] liability.
[45:32] Must be a resident of Delaware
[45:34] for at least 5 years and must
[45:36] live and maintain the property
[45:38] as their primary residence for
[45:40] at least one year and must have
[45:42] an adjusted gross income of less
[45:43] than $18,000.
[45:46] For someone who's single and a
[45:50] joint income of 24,750 combined.
[45:54] Disability exemption, residents
[45:56] who are entirely disabled may
[45:58] qualify for reduction in their
[46:00] taxable assessment, reducing or
[46:02] potentially eliminating the
[46:02] property tax liability.
[46:06] Must be a resident of Delaware
[46:06] for the last 5 years.
[46:08] Must live and maintain the
[46:10] properties of primary residents
[46:12] for at least one year. You must
[46:14] have an adjusted gross income of
[46:14] less than 18,000 if you're
[46:16] single or $24,000 combined.
[46:20] There's additional exemptions.
[46:22] Industry exemptions, select
[46:24] businesses and industries
[46:26] needing specific financial
[46:28] investment and job creation
[46:30] criteria may be eligible for a
[46:32] gradual reduction in county
[46:34] property taxes over 10 years
[46:36] through Kent County Economic
[46:37] Partnership.
[46:40] Um, farmland exemptions,
[46:42] agricultural land excluding
[46:43] improvements.
[46:46] They qualify for tax exemption
[46:48] under the Farmland Assessment
[46:52] Act of 1968. If specific
[46:52] requirements are met and through
[46:54] the Agricultural Lands
[46:54] Preservation Foundation.
[47:00] Uniform military personnel
[47:02] credit, persons who have served
[47:04] in combat zones beginning on or
[47:06] after November 13, 2007, may
[47:08] qualify to receive partial
[47:10] relief from county government
[47:11] property taxes.
[47:18] OK, then we move on to Sussex
[47:19] County.
[47:22] Suss Sussex County relief
[47:22] programs.
[47:26] Over 65 exemption, residents
[47:28] aged 65 or older by June 30th,
[47:30] the current tax year may be
[47:32] eligible for exemption to be
[47:34] applied to taxable assessments
[47:36] up to $229,000 of the assessed
[47:38] value. Must be a full-time
[47:40] resident of Sussex County for
[47:44] the preceding 5 years, must have
[47:46] an income less than $6000 if
[47:48] single for $7500 combined.
[47:50] Mm.
[47:50] I
[47:54] Yes, that is ridiculous. I, I,
[47:55] some of these.
[47:58] Values were probably set many,
[48:02] many years ago and if someone's
[48:03] comment on that, yeah. Well,
[48:04] please note that some of those
[48:06] values do not include Social
[48:08] Security, they only include
[48:08] other income other than Social
[48:10] Security. That's why the values
[48:12] are low. Social Security is
[48:16] excluded. OK, thank you.
[48:16] Um,
[48:20] So Sussex County property tax
[48:22] subsidy, low income residents
[48:24] may be eligible for subsidy to
[48:28] be applied to the 1st 16,000 of
[48:30] taxable assessment for the
[48:32] county portion of their tax bill
[48:32] only.
[48:34] Must be a full-time resident of
[48:36] Sussex County for the preceding
[48:38] 5 years, must have an income of
[48:42] less than $15,800 in single or
[48:46] $20,000 combined. Liquid assets
[48:48] or real estate must be less than
[48:52] $15,000 not including, uh,
[48:52] primary residents.
[48:54] Yeah.
[48:58] So.
[49:02] Yes, Senator Huxtable, thank
[49:04] you, Representative Burns. Is it
[49:06] possible, so I mean, we, as this
[49:08] committee looks on a statewide
[49:10] basis of what potential programs
[49:12] that might be out there on the
[49:14] property tax relief and
[49:16] modernization and and not
[49:18] wanting to like, and, and also
[49:20] working in concert with with the
[49:22] counties and their programs, is
[49:24] it possible to find out roughly
[49:26] how many people may qualify or
[49:28] who are using the current
[49:29] program, so we aren't.
[49:32] Uh, maybe instead of just
[49:34] targeting the same people, you
[49:36] know, we just figure out how we
[49:38] are working together in concert.
[49:40] I, I guess my question is really
[49:40] to.
[49:42] The county representatives
[49:42] current status.
[49:46] Yeah, yeah, there's, if there's,
[49:48] it's a robust program and lots
[49:48] of people are taking advantage
[49:50] of it or if it's not well
[49:52] subscribed because I think
[49:54] that'll help us figure out where
[49:54] where we may need to land.
[49:56] Is that something?
[50:00] I'm going to ask uh the county
[50:00] representatives weigh in if they
[50:02] will. Is that something that you
[50:04] think would be reasonable to ask
[50:06] is try to find out sort of what
[50:08] the level of participation
[50:10] in the various common level
[50:12] relief programs are,
[50:12] uh, Dave Del Grande here, New
[50:14] Castle County,
[50:16] Uh, we can pull data from our
[50:18] last tax bill cycle and see what
[50:20] that information was, if that's.
[50:22] That's
[50:24] Newcastle County can. That would
[50:28] be very helpful, um, so. We can
[50:28] do the same. OK.
[50:30] And Sussex can do the same, but
[50:32] I just want to make it clear,
[50:34] our numbers are very low because
[50:36] our average tax bill in Sussex
[50:38] is $124. So when you look at
[50:40] incomes and why not many people
[50:40] are qualifying is because their
[50:42] taxes are super low, so we're
[50:44] not gonna have much
[50:44] participation, but we can get
[50:45] you that information.
[50:48] But do those, does that also um
[50:52] Extend the school taxes. It does
[50:54] not. It's only county taxes.
[50:54] We're talking about programs,
[50:55] yeah,
[50:56] Extend the school taxes. It does
[50:56] not. It's only county taxes.
[50:57] We're talking about programs
[50:58] yeah
[50:58] But, and are your programs
[50:58] strictly for the county for the
[51:00] county. And it doesn't, not the
[51:02] county. And it doesn't not
[51:02] scoreboard. OK.
[51:03] That's a good that's not true
[51:04] Extend the school taxes. It does
[51:04] not. It's only county taxes.
[51:05] We're talking about programs,
[51:06] yeah.
[51:06] But, and are your programs
[51:06] strictly for the county for the
[51:07] county. And it doesn't not
[51:08] scoreboard. OK. That's a good
[51:08] point that's not true for us,
[51:09] right? So, and I believe in New
[51:10] Castle County.
[51:10] Is it for both or is it
[51:10] specifically counting tax?
[51:12] I will go back and look at that.
[51:16] I'll be 100% certain. I know we
[51:16] kind of bleed over into either
[51:20] side. Let me look. Because when
[51:20] the taxpayer gets their bill.
[51:24] They're not really parsing it to
[51:26] county versus school. So, you
[51:26] know they're looking at what
[51:28] their total tax burden is, so.
[51:28] Um,
[51:32] Pretty good. So we could get
[51:34] Pretty good. So if we could get
[51:34] that information, if you'd be
[51:36] willing to share that maybe um.
[51:40] I don't wanna burden someone
[51:42] with too much to do in terms of
[51:44] before our next meeting, but you
[51:46] know, let's say within 2
[51:46] meetings out.
[51:50] Um, give everyone a month.
[51:52] So I think if that's pretty
[51:54] reasonable, it would be very
[51:55] helpful,
[52:00] Oh, sorry. Yeah, just a quick
[52:00] question, were these, um,
[52:04] exemptions created a long time
[52:04] ago or were they in response to
[52:05] the reevaluation?
[52:08] These, these, I think were all
[52:10] created a long time ago. I've
[52:12] done these for you um.
[52:18] There were some, um, some moves
[52:18] modify some of them.
[52:22] After, so David, do you wanna,
[52:24] yeah, just to add, sir, um, New
[52:26] Castle County's numbers were
[52:26] updated after the reassessment
[52:30] with the income and the assessed
[52:32] value exemptions, but we don't
[52:33] have authority on the school
[52:33] side, so.
[52:34] Yes.
[52:36] Thank you.
[52:40] So
[52:42] I've had some.
[52:46] Pre-prescribed evaluation
[52:46] criteria.
[52:48] Which is probably incomplete.
[52:52] But um I think we need to,
[52:54] whatever we're looking at, we
[52:56] need to look at taxpayer equity
[52:56] and fairness.
[52:58] Ability to pay.
[53:02] And we
[53:04] that should be a consideration
[53:06] and also predictability of
[53:08] property tax bills and amounts.
[53:12] The impacts on housing
[53:12] affordability.
[53:14] Economic impacts on
[53:16] non-residential property owners.
[53:20] Revenue stability for the
[53:22] counties, municipalities, and
[53:22] school districts.
[53:26] Administrative feasibility and
[53:26] implementation.
[53:30] There's a number of things that
[53:32] um I'm sure the county
[53:32] representatives will say there's
[53:34] all sorts of ideas that people
[53:36] can come up with, but actually
[53:38] putting them into practice
[53:40] sometimes it can be very, very
[53:40] difficult.
[53:41] So,
[53:44] Are there additional criteria
[53:46] that members believe we should
[53:50] consider uh as we evaluate
[53:50] potential reforms.
[53:54] They can pop up at later
[53:54] meetings as well.
[53:56] So.
[53:58] So
[54:02] I question here, um, just a
[54:02] couple of questions.
[54:06] Well, maybe first of all, and I
[54:08] think the Department of Finance
[54:10] and, and you know the Office of
[54:12] Management and Budget, could,
[54:14] can you get the, the statistics
[54:14] on um.
[54:16] The dollar value and the number
[54:18] of people that for the seed
[54:19] property taxes.
[54:24] 74,100 homes.
[54:26] $31.6 million.
[54:30] Not, because not everybody gets
[54:31] the full $500.
[54:34] Sometimes it's prorated or
[54:34] sometimes it's less than. That's
[54:36] the most recent numbers across
[54:38] the state, but, uh, as
[54:38] as you mentioned.
[54:42] Chair, it's a, it's not income.
[54:44] testing
[54:44] because
[54:44] testing
[54:46] because there's many Michael
[54:48] Smiths, and sometimes, you know,
[54:50] we have the tax department and
[54:52] then we have the county records,
[54:52] so.
[54:53] Um,
[54:54] So that's something, you know,
[54:56] obviously the committee could
[54:57] So that's something, you know,
[54:57] obviously the committee can
[54:58] consider obviously this whether
[54:59] or not it's something that can
[55:02] be if it could be income or
[55:02] not it's something that can be
[55:03] if it could be income revenues
[55:04] tested, you know, uh, there's
[55:04] always been talk about trying to
[55:06] increase it, and I think that
[55:06] probably at lower income levels,
[55:07] um.
[55:10] It would be nice to have maybe a
[55:10] little more, but the upper
[55:12] levels maybe there's not so much
[55:14] you're in need of it that
[55:14] particular flat fee.
[55:16] I,
[55:18] yes, can you repeat that number
[55:18] again? I'm sorry. It's about
[55:22] 74,100 homes in all three
[55:24] counties, and uh it was just
[55:26] under 32, 31.6 million, last
[55:26] numbers.
[55:27] Thank you.
[55:32] It can be prorated, you know, it
[55:34] can be prorated because I mean
[55:36] it's 50%. It could be capped by
[55:38] the bill or it could be 4
[55:40] siblings own the property and
[55:40] only one qualifies, so you get
[55:42] $125 versus 500 pesa each.
[55:44] You know, that's, that's where I
[55:46] get different amounts and not
[55:46] get $500 depending on the
[55:47] situation.
[55:48] That's
[55:50] Kind of hard to hear you down
[55:51] here.
[55:54] OK, I was just talking to the,
[55:56] the numbers and then also the
[55:58] qualifications. No, not
[55:58] everybody receives a 4 or $500.
[56:00] Depending on circumstances of
[56:04] the 50%, $500 up to 50% of the
[56:04] bill, depending on what their
[56:05] bill is.
[56:08] But also, um, unrelated parties
[56:10] could own property, like 4
[56:10] siblings can own property and 1
[56:12] But also, um, unrelated parties
[56:12] could own property like 4
[56:13] siblings can own a property and
[56:14] 1 could be all living there, one
[56:14] could be qualified, so they get
[56:16] one quarter of the $500 not the
[56:16] full $500 so.
[56:18] There's a little bit of, you
[56:18] know.
[56:20] Coordination there
[56:20] only call
[56:22] Coordination there.
[56:22] The only call,
[56:24] Mr. Chair, it would be helpful
[56:24] too for the, the counties, um,
[56:26] there's the qualifications, but
[56:28] also income definition. I think
[56:30] it's important too. I know, I
[56:32] know, I think Newcastle doesn't
[56:32] probably include Social Security
[56:34] as well. I'm not sure if they
[56:36] include pensioner solution,
[56:36] things like that would be
[56:38] helpful like there's, you know,
[56:38] is there already
[56:40] um a reduction in income.
[56:44] So sometimes the numbers seem
[56:44] lower than they should be
[56:45] because
[56:46] there's already amounts being
[56:50] taken off of federal AGI and
[56:52] reduced down the Delaware AGI
[56:54] that would look, look slow but
[56:54] in reality it's.
[56:55] I hired him.
[56:56] Yeah, is that?
[57:00] Would that be something to add
[57:02] to the homework for the
[57:04] representatives from the
[57:04] counties. Newcastle County can
[57:05] Would that be something to add
[57:06] to the homework for the
[57:06] representatives from the
[57:07] counties. New Castle County can
[57:07] add income qualifications,
[57:08] thresholds. That's not a
[57:08] problem.
[57:09] Yeah
[57:12] For qualifications of
[57:12] exemptions.
[57:16] So can provide the information.
[57:16] OK, thank you.
[57:18] Very good.
[57:22] OK, well, that is, um.
[57:24] I had another follow up
[57:24] question, so,
[57:28] um, make sure the process is
[57:30] still the same, at least back
[57:32] when, when I was there for the
[57:34] statewide relief programs,
[57:38] senior school tax credit. That
[57:40] application is made to the
[57:42] counties by the resident,
[57:44] correct? Still, correct. OK,
[57:44] yes, yeah, um.
[57:48] But once again, that is only for
[57:50] school taxes on, on the state
[57:50] side.
[57:52] Um, and then another question is
[57:56] on your local programs with the
[57:56] income-based uh
[58:00] Qualification, do you have them
[58:02] come in and submit W-2s, or is
[58:04] there any supporting
[58:04] documentation that you asked
[58:05] for?
[58:06] You know,
[58:08] For New Castle County, correct,
[58:09] there are, um.
[58:12] Uh, backup requirements for the
[58:13] for the applications.
[58:14] I believe it's, I believe it's a
[58:16] tax return. I have to go back
[58:18] and check for sure, but I, there
[58:20] is verification steps they have,
[58:22] they have to go through to get
[58:22] qualified.
[58:24] We require the tax return and
[58:26] also they have to apply every
[58:27] year.
[58:30] Have to apply every year for
[58:30] that OK.
[58:32] And we require documentation as
[58:34] well. Do they apply every year
[58:36] too. They don't, yeah, we don't
[58:36] apply every year, so, but we'll
[58:38] do audits going back.
[58:40] Thank you.
[58:44] Well, I'm going to, I'm going to
[58:46] put my own little thing up
[58:46] because one of the things that
[58:47] um
[58:52] Another thing that I think to
[58:54] think about and it came up as,
[58:55] as, um you were talking about.
[58:58] Having to refile and things like
[59:00] that. Some people are not quite
[59:04] as with it as other people. Uh,
[59:06] so what is the burden to
[59:06] actually
[59:08] I think, yeah, but, but.
[59:12] Thank you for the comment.
[59:14] Secretary Clifton, um,
[59:20] You know, what is, what is the
[59:22] Outreach to people.
[59:24] To help them qualify.
[59:26] You know, in terms of.
[59:28] Um,
[59:30] You know, people who may.
[59:32] Be sort of hanging on at home or
[59:33] whatever, but not.
[59:38] Who may need help, because not
[59:40] everyone is, is at the same
[59:40] level of ability to request.
[59:44] Uh, to file forms and apply for
[59:46] things and sometimes what we see
[59:48] is there's a lot more people who
[59:50] would be eligible for a program
[59:52] that are actually receiving it
[59:54] and how, how, how do we go about
[59:56] lessening that burden for
[59:56] people. I'm sorry.
[59:58] We
[1:00:00] For the people that already have
[1:00:02] it, because they have to do it
[1:00:04] every year. We send them an
[1:00:06] application every year. So if
[1:00:06] you've already been established,
[1:00:08] you get it every year sent to
[1:00:08] your home.
[1:00:10] And then we just advertise in
[1:00:12] the paper, same way you do for
[1:00:14] everything in the papers, on
[1:00:16] your website, the outreach like
[1:00:16] that, senior centers.
[1:00:18] For our outreach areas.
[1:00:24] Do, is there any way to find out
[1:00:24] what the
[1:00:26] Actual participation is.
[1:00:28] And compare that to the number
[1:00:29] of people who
[1:00:34] Would be, should are eligible
[1:00:34] versus the number of people that
[1:00:35] apply.
[1:00:36] We have no idea about income.
[1:00:38] People's income, we don't track
[1:00:40] that you'd have nobody tracks
[1:00:41] that we have.
[1:00:46] And for the state senior tax
[1:00:46] credit, is that something where.
[1:00:48] It would be possible to
[1:00:48] determine sort of.
[1:00:50] How many people
[1:00:54] Appear to be eligible versus how
[1:00:56] many people are actually taking
[1:00:56] advantage of the program.
[1:01:00] Uh,
[1:01:00] same challenge when it comes to,
[1:01:02] I can tell you that um this is.
[1:01:06] New information. It was a little
[1:01:08] project that I kind of tried
[1:01:08] because, you know, if I, I, as
[1:01:09] Michael Smith.
[1:01:12] My social number and the parcel
[1:01:13] I live in.
[1:01:16] On my, uh including that that
[1:01:16] address on my tax return and
[1:01:17] applying for.
[1:01:18] A discount,
[1:01:20] a senior discount,
[1:01:22] um, then it would linked to that
[1:01:26] address, so to the extent uh we
[1:01:26] did a project to the extent we
[1:01:28] could find the name that matched
[1:01:30] or at least one person filing
[1:01:32] that and then uh a dress match
[1:01:34] of the all the individuals that
[1:01:36] received the credit, 1/3 were a
[1:01:38] match. So now there's a number
[1:01:40] that don't have to file, right,
[1:01:42] Because if you only have Social
[1:01:42] Security available income, you
[1:01:44] don't have to file a tax return,
[1:01:46] but we're able to with any kind
[1:01:47] of certainty, identify a.
[1:01:52] Approximately 300 or 33% of the
[1:01:52] individuals receiving, but
[1:01:54] that's the only thing, but
[1:01:56] that's just going by hoping that
[1:01:58] um the address, you know, which
[1:02:00] it's, it's, it's a name and
[1:02:00] address match against our
[1:02:02] records versus an actual
[1:02:06] taxpayer ID and that's kind of
[1:02:06] as far as it went, so if you're
[1:02:08] using a different address, a
[1:02:08] care of address, you know, you
[1:02:10] can use different addresses,
[1:02:10] care of address, whatever the
[1:02:12] case may be, uh, so it's not
[1:02:14] really, I what I hope for a
[1:02:16] little bit better match than
[1:02:16] that, uh, and that would
[1:02:17] clearly, you know, indicate.
[1:02:20] OK, well this is a parcel with
[1:02:20] an address matching individuals
[1:02:22] receiving it, we get, we now
[1:02:24] have their income, but that's
[1:02:26] the only link we can, but our
[1:02:28] success rate is about 1/3. OK,
[1:02:30] So I guess what the data and
[1:02:32] ability to access that just
[1:02:34] really doesn't exist right now
[1:02:36] to evaluate these programs in
[1:02:38] terms of their reach to.
[1:02:40] Total potentially eligible
[1:02:42] individuals. They don't track
[1:02:44] birth dates or income.
[1:02:48] OK, that was just, I just, I'm
[1:02:50] always looking out for the
[1:02:50] people who are, you know.
[1:02:54] Living at home, but maybe
[1:02:56] marginally so and maybe uh you
[1:02:58] know, in difficulty in terms of
[1:03:02] filing forms and getting things
[1:03:04] and, you know, jumping through
[1:03:06] the, so I guess I'm looking for
[1:03:08] hoop minimization in terms of
[1:03:09] what people would need to jump
[1:03:12] through to qualify as being one
[1:03:12] of the criteria to look at.
[1:03:16] Is that?
[1:03:20] Yes, just 11 comment, um.
[1:03:24] Depending on websites,
[1:03:26] newspapers, things like that,
[1:03:28] and I know that that is how
[1:03:30] municipalities do things, um,
[1:03:30] cause I live in one and that's
[1:03:34] how they do it. And um for
[1:03:36] regular humans or older humans,
[1:03:38] that is really difficult in
[1:03:42] terms of a, of a way to have
[1:03:44] reliable communication. This
[1:03:46] seems to me this is a, a change
[1:03:46] management problem, it's a
[1:03:48] societal change management
[1:03:52] problem. And so if, if we want
[1:03:52] this to work for people who
[1:03:54] really need it. I think we need
[1:03:56] to think about it a little bit
[1:03:58] differently. So yes, we would do
[1:04:00] all the normal stuff. You know,
[1:04:00] there's nothing more off-putting
[1:04:04] to a person who needs help than
[1:04:04] to be told, didn't you look at
[1:04:06] the website, that, that's
[1:04:08] actually, you know, I, I defy
[1:04:08] anybody to find anything on
[1:04:10] Newcastle City's website,
[1:04:12] including myself, and I've been
[1:04:14] on two commissions. So, um,
[1:04:18] maybe as part of this activity,
[1:04:20] we think about other ways to
[1:04:22] communicate. Senior centers is
[1:04:22] very good, libraries is a
[1:04:26] Really good one. Churches is a
[1:04:27] really good one,
[1:04:30] social groups, I don't know. I
[1:04:30] mean, I did change management
[1:04:32] professionally, uh, as a
[1:04:34] management consultant so I could
[1:04:35] help you come up with some
[1:04:35] thoughts, but
[1:04:38] Talking to real people,
[1:04:40] especially people in trouble who
[1:04:42] need help is a much bigger
[1:04:42] problem than what
[1:04:44] What I think has been done in
[1:04:46] the past, so maybe something we
[1:04:47] could think about.
[1:04:52] Thank you.
[1:04:52] OK.
[1:04:54] Ever um.
[1:04:58] I heard that Delaware has a very
[1:05:02] high foreclosure rate, uh, is
[1:05:02] it, I don't know if this is true
[1:05:06] or not and uh I guess part of
[1:05:06] what we're trying to
[1:05:10] determine is how we can
[1:05:12] Make sure that people can stay
[1:05:14] in their homes, especially
[1:05:18] uh, those who have contributed
[1:05:18] to society for a long time, the
[1:05:22] seniors, uh, especially like
[1:05:26] when a, a spouse dies and then
[1:05:26] the amount of income that's
[1:05:28] coming in, a limited amount of
[1:05:30] income is reduced, how do we
[1:05:32] make sure that there's, uh,
[1:05:34] those people can stay in their
[1:05:36] homes, so, uh, I, I don't know
[1:05:40] that if there's any way that uh
[1:05:40] the foreclosure rate fits.
[1:05:42] Into what we're discussing or
[1:05:43] not, but uh.
[1:05:44] Just thought I'd bring it up.
[1:05:48] I think that's
[1:05:52] A very good point, and I don't
[1:05:54] have any idea.
[1:05:56] I actually don't know whether
[1:05:58] our foreclosure, I've seen
[1:05:58] something in, you know, a
[1:06:00] headline on something about
[1:06:02] foreclosure rates, but I don't
[1:06:04] know that so Secretary Heckles,
[1:06:06] A very good point, and I don't
[1:06:06] have any idea.
[1:06:07] I actually don't know whether
[1:06:07] our foreclosure, I've seen
[1:06:08] something in, you know, a
[1:06:09] headline on something about
[1:06:09] foreclosure rates, but I don't
[1:06:10] know that so Secretary Heckel,
[1:06:11] A very good point, and I don't
[1:06:11] have any idea.
[1:06:12] I actually don't know whether
[1:06:12] our foreclosure, I've seen
[1:06:13] something in, you know, a
[1:06:13] headline on something about
[1:06:14] foreclosure rates, but I don't
[1:06:15] know that so Secretary Heckles,
[1:06:15] who's housing, would know those
[1:06:16] things. I might know. Um, it's
[1:06:17] actually not, um, historically,
[1:06:17] at least, uh, for context, when
[1:06:18] we were in the Great Depression,
[1:06:19] we were a Great Depression,
[1:06:19] Great Recession, financial
[1:06:20] crisis. Uh, we were looking at 7
[1:06:21] or 8000 foreclosures a year.
[1:06:22] year. Uh, at that point in time,
[1:06:24] we were trying to get back to
[1:06:26] our historical average, um, at
[1:06:28] about 2000, um, for the past
[1:06:30] several years, and there's been
[1:06:30] a lot of good products in the
[1:06:34] pandemic that have helped people
[1:06:34] facing foreclosure, but for the
[1:06:36] past several years we've sort of
[1:06:40] creeped up to about 1300 a year,
[1:06:40] which is below sort of what we
[1:06:44] would consider a natural rate of
[1:06:44] foreclosure. So, um,
[1:06:46] I've seen those reports too. I
[1:06:48] think maybe per capita, uh,
[1:06:50] there's some funkiness in the
[1:06:50] numbers when you look at it
[1:06:52] against, you know, other states
[1:06:54] and things like that, um, but
[1:06:56] generally it's not, uh, we're
[1:06:58] not seeing numbers that are uh
[1:06:58] concerning to us on the data
[1:07:02] side. Doesn't mean that any, uh,
[1:07:04] you know, if you're going
[1:07:04] through foreclosure, you don't
[1:07:06] care how many there are in the
[1:07:08] state. So it doesn't, uh,
[1:07:10] diminish your, your, your point.
[1:07:10] I just want to make the, the
[1:07:12] clarification on the data that
[1:07:14] that er we aren't seeing data
[1:07:14] that shows that we have a a
[1:07:15] foreclosure.
[1:07:16] rate that is uh
[1:07:20] Sort of big picture statewide
[1:07:22] policy wise,
[1:07:22] a concern for us at this point.
[1:07:24] So I've got Senator Huxtable and
[1:07:26] Secretary Clifton both want to
[1:07:28] speak, but I, I'm gonna ask if I
[1:07:30] I'm gonna ask you if I can ask
[1:07:30] you a bit of a follow-up
[1:07:32] question on that. Do you have
[1:07:36] Any kind of detailed demographic
[1:07:36] information.
[1:07:38] On the individuals who do get 4
[1:07:39] clubs.
[1:07:44] Because that we may be able to
[1:07:46] identify, as Senator Richardson
[1:07:48] said, you know, are these, if
[1:07:48] there's a big number of elderly
[1:07:50] people that have lost their
[1:07:54] spouse within the last year. We
[1:07:54] don't know that's a possibility,
[1:07:58] but, you know, maybe there's
[1:07:58] some very targeted things we
[1:08:02] need to think about and would it
[1:08:03] be possible to get.
[1:08:04] Demographics like that or is
[1:08:05] that not collected?
[1:08:06] So,
[1:08:12] The data I'm citing comes to us
[1:08:14] from the Department of Justice.
[1:08:16] Uh, they are, uh, involved in
[1:08:18] the foreclosure mediation
[1:08:18] program that was created again
[1:08:22] back in the financial crisis,
[1:08:22] um, and.
[1:08:26] I don't know that they go much
[1:08:28] deeper than county. Um, they
[1:08:30] certainly don't have sort of
[1:08:32] familial uh information about,
[1:08:34] you know, recently lost spouses
[1:08:35] or anything like that. I think
[1:08:35] it, it.
[1:08:38] It's just what comes through the
[1:08:39] court system, um.
[1:08:42] With that, with that foreclosure
[1:08:44] mediation program, you know,
[1:08:44] the, they, they do go through a
[1:08:46] mediation process with the
[1:08:48] lender, um, you know, they have
[1:08:50] access to housing counseling,
[1:08:50] um.
[1:08:54] And again, the, the number of uh
[1:08:56] foreclosure avoidance programs
[1:08:57] that popped up during the, the,
[1:09:00] the pandemic. The the the
[1:09:02] requirements at first, but then,
[1:09:02] you know, I think a lot of
[1:09:04] mortgage servicers have stuck
[1:09:06] with uh a lot of those programs
[1:09:08] to, you know, forbearances and,
[1:09:10] and things like that that have
[1:09:10] kept a lot of people in their
[1:09:12] homes. So when we say, you know,
[1:09:12] there's sort of a natural rate,
[1:09:13] um.
[1:09:16] You know, there, there are a lot
[1:09:16] of reasons that people can go
[1:09:17] through foreclosure.
[1:09:17] OK
[1:09:20] OK, I was just wondering because
[1:09:21] again if
[1:09:22] It would be useful to know that
[1:09:26] if, because there may be some
[1:09:26] crisis that we just don't
[1:09:27] recognize.
[1:09:30] That we can certainly ask the
[1:09:32] Department of Justice what other
[1:09:32] data they may have, um, but I
[1:09:34] don't think that that kind of
[1:09:35] level is gonna be there.
[1:09:36] Would it be
[1:09:38] Well, I can do that. We can.
[1:09:42] We can think about one of the
[1:09:42] recommendations the committee
[1:09:44] might be to ask at the end of
[1:09:46] all this is ask the Department
[1:09:48] of Justice to start collecting
[1:09:49] that kind of information.
[1:09:52] You know, that would be, again,
[1:09:54] we, not everything that we
[1:09:54] recommend coming out of this
[1:09:58] committee needs to be a piece of
[1:10:00] legislation that can be, we, we
[1:10:02] recognize the gap in the
[1:10:02] information we'd like to have to
[1:10:04] come up with really good
[1:10:06] solutions and then trying to
[1:10:08] make sure that that information
[1:10:08] can get obtained.
[1:10:10] So, thank you.
[1:10:16] OK, sorry, Senator Huxtable.
[1:10:16] That's right. So I know we've
[1:10:18] we've concentrated a lot on, on
[1:10:22] some of what the counties offer,
[1:10:24] uh, and I was gonna point to
[1:10:24] Janelle and ask.
[1:10:28] Uh, Janelle, do you know if any
[1:10:30] towns and other municipalities
[1:10:30] may have
[1:10:32] Additional programs that are
[1:10:33] layered on.
[1:10:36] That they are offering and you
[1:10:36] don't need to answer the
[1:10:38] question right now, but if you
[1:10:40] could do a survey. Yeah, I'll,
[1:10:40] I'll have to reach out and ask.
[1:10:42] Some do, I know, and I believe,
[1:10:46] and I believe most do not.
[1:10:48] Secretary Clifton.
[1:10:52] Uh, I see in the resolution
[1:10:53] that, um,
[1:10:56] One of the charges is that um.
[1:10:58] This group
[1:11:02] Shall review and evaluate
[1:11:02] property tax relief and
[1:11:04] stabilization strategies
[1:11:06] utilized in other states,
[1:11:08] including neighboring and peer
[1:11:09] states.
[1:11:10] Um,
[1:11:14] So my first question on that is,
[1:11:16] whose responsibility is that to,
[1:11:20] to collect all that data. Is it
[1:11:20] Justin's? So,
[1:11:22] does that fall to staff? So
[1:11:24] actually we have um.
[1:11:28] There's an organization called
[1:11:28] the Lincoln Institute of Land
[1:11:32] Use Policy, and they are experts
[1:11:34] in this field and they will be
[1:11:36] giving presentations to us
[1:11:38] about these different uh types
[1:11:42] of programs in other states. Um,
[1:11:44] they're, they're, uh, strictly
[1:11:46] nonpartisan, and they, they were
[1:11:48] a little bit afraid of getting
[1:11:48] involved because they didn't
[1:11:49] wanna.
[1:11:52] You know, seem to be.
[1:11:56] Putting forth any physicians. I
[1:11:56] think uh though in terms of
[1:12:00] factual information sharing, um,
[1:12:02] they're quite willing, and I
[1:12:04] think they'll be, I think, uh, I
[1:12:06] think one of the representatives
[1:12:06] on the meeting right now.
[1:12:07] So,
[1:12:08] Very good. Maybe we can ask.
[1:12:12] I, I have a coup couple other
[1:12:13] uh.
[1:12:18] Follow-ups to that too. Um,
[1:12:20] well, I, I'm, I'm aware of that,
[1:12:22] uh, and I don't know what the
[1:12:24] breakdown is, but, uh, some
[1:12:26] states have property tax, some
[1:12:26] don't.
[1:12:28] Some have income tax, some
[1:12:32] don't. But our charge doesn't,
[1:12:34] doesn't extend to the
[1:12:34] fundamental question of
[1:12:36] Which
[1:12:40] Which is the most equitable, uh,
[1:12:44] overall structure, category, uh,
[1:12:44] uh.
[1:12:46] Usage, utilization, etc.
[1:12:50] That that's not, we, we don't
[1:12:52] extend to that, correct? No, and
[1:12:52] I think um
[1:12:56] And also this is the state
[1:12:56] legislative and we don't have a
[1:12:58] state property tax.
[1:13:02] Property tax is all local. We,
[1:13:04] we as the state legislator just
[1:13:06] enable, have enabling
[1:13:08] legislation for things. So, um,
[1:13:10] yeah, yeah.
[1:13:12] Trying to say what should come
[1:13:14] from property tax, what should
[1:13:16] the uh, the thought of the sales
[1:13:16] tax, all that's beyond the scope
[1:13:18] of this,
[1:13:20] this meeting, this group. I have
[1:13:22] a hand raised from Ron Lincoln
[1:13:22] Institute.
[1:13:24] Hopefully Ron can, can we get
[1:13:26] Ron up on the screen and can he
[1:13:28] Hi there.
[1:13:30] Yeah.
[1:13:32] Uh, my name is Ron Rocco, and
[1:13:34] I'm with the uh Lincoln
[1:13:36] Institute of Land Policy, and I,
[1:13:38] I've, I've uh had some uh
[1:13:38] communications with the, uh,
[1:13:42] with the staff and the care uh
[1:13:44] about our participation in this.
[1:13:44] Uh, first of all, we're, we're
[1:13:48] pleased to help out on this. Um,
[1:13:48] in answer to the, uh,
[1:13:50] gentleman's question, yeah, uh,
[1:13:52] our, our whole, um, point in
[1:13:54] this, first of all, just a
[1:13:54] little bit about the Lincoln
[1:13:56] Institute. We are nonpartisan.
[1:13:58] We are a land use planning think
[1:14:00] tank that's in uh based in
[1:14:00] Cambridge.
[1:14:01] Massachusetts,
[1:14:04] Um, we have a particular focus
[1:14:06] on the property tax. So, uh, we
[1:14:10] have lots of good data, policy
[1:14:12] focused reports, uh, and whatnot
[1:14:14] that I think are very relevant
[1:14:16] to the work that you're doing in
[1:14:16] Delaware.
[1:14:20] Um, we have a database called
[1:14:22] Significant Features of the
[1:14:24] Property tax, um, which will
[1:14:26] provide a lot of, I think, data
[1:14:28] on not only what neighboring
[1:14:28] states are doing, but what all
[1:14:30] 50 states are doing in the
[1:14:30] District of Columbia. So we have
[1:14:32] lots of data that we can share
[1:14:34] uh with you and the staff. Uh,
[1:14:36] so our, our whole purpose here
[1:14:38] is really to kind of provide
[1:14:40] some guidance as a subject
[1:14:42] matter expert, um, we can, uh,
[1:14:44] do some presentations on some of
[1:14:46] the uh exemption programs you're
[1:14:47] considering in terms
[1:14:50] Of, uh, you know, do's and
[1:14:50] don'ts, uh, as we see it in
[1:14:52] terms of best practices and, and
[1:14:56] how to best target relief uh to
[1:14:58] the, the folks that um both,
[1:15:00] most needed. So, ah, with that,
[1:15:02] it's just a quick introduction
[1:15:02] to us and uh we're, we're happy
[1:15:06] to be part of the process here.
[1:15:10] OK. So, yes, it's not all on.
[1:15:12] Just to
[1:15:16] do all the background research.
[1:15:18] So, uh, just mostly, yes,
[1:15:20] and I, and I will say this,
[1:15:22] the, um, Lincoln Institute did,
[1:15:24] uh, do presentations for the
[1:15:26] special committee.
[1:15:30] I thought they were quite good.
[1:15:32] I'm, I, I think they'll be
[1:15:34] extremely useful in terms of
[1:15:36] understanding um the impacts and
[1:15:38] how to go about these, these
[1:15:38] various mechanisms.
[1:15:39] Yeah.
[1:15:44] OK, I know we are only at what,
[1:15:46] 11:15,
[1:15:48] Um, but I think we've covered
[1:15:50] what was on the agenda for
[1:15:50] today.
[1:15:52] Is there?
[1:15:52] We need to have
[1:15:54] Sorry?
[1:15:56] Mone.
[1:15:58] thank you.
[1:16:00] Um, just as a follow up to that,
[1:16:00] I think it would be helpful, uh,
[1:16:02] as we look at different relief
[1:16:04] options to also look at if we
[1:16:06] have the information available
[1:16:08] of what the average property tax
[1:16:10] bill is in each county in
[1:16:12] Delaware, as well as our
[1:16:12] neighboring counties.
[1:16:14] From other states.
[1:16:16] And I don't know if that's
[1:16:18] something that the Lincoln
[1:16:18] Institute has, um,
[1:16:22] Happy to research that myself as
[1:16:24] well, um,
[1:16:26] but as we consider relief, it
[1:16:28] would also be appropriate to
[1:16:30] consider what the bills actually
[1:16:32] are and what's best for
[1:16:34] Delawareans. And
[1:16:36] you'd be looking for county and
[1:16:38] school tax, right? Total, yep,
[1:16:39] the property tax bill.
[1:16:48] I think we can probably get that
[1:16:50] um, I'm sure the counties have
[1:16:50] that. We're probably looking at.
[1:16:52] Then
[1:16:56] A median and an arithmetic
[1:16:56] average type of.
[1:17:00] Way of doing that, is that
[1:17:02] something reasonably easy to
[1:17:04] come up with. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm
[1:17:06] just, uh, my, my wheels are
[1:17:08] spinning. So, um, we have
[1:17:08] different tax rates for each
[1:17:10] municipality in New Castle
[1:17:10] County, so it really depends on
[1:17:12] where you live. Um, City of
[1:17:14] Wilmington resident will pay
[1:17:16] much sum, much different than uh
[1:17:20] someone outside the city. Uh, I
[1:17:20] think that the biggest.
[1:17:22] Thing we're all discussing
[1:17:22] through the school text.
[1:17:26] I mean, I, I have no problem
[1:17:26] providing average and median for
[1:17:27] the county.
[1:17:28] In
[1:17:30] In the municipalities and
[1:17:32] outside of the municipality
[1:17:34] rates, uh, averages and medians,
[1:17:36] um, school districts begin to
[1:17:38] apply something similar as well
[1:17:40] as well based on the meetings
[1:17:40] for those, um.
[1:17:44] But yeah, that's something we
[1:17:44] can.
[1:17:46] We can also throw together
[1:17:48] so. So it seems like we're
[1:17:48] asking the counties to do a lot
[1:17:52] of homework. So. Um, again, if
[1:17:52] like 2 meetings ahead.
[1:17:56] If that's reasonable, it's a
[1:17:58] month away, um.
[1:18:00] So hopefully.
[1:18:04] We can hear back at that time
[1:18:04] and we can add that to the
[1:18:06] agenda for that meeting
[1:18:08] and Ron has his hand raised. OK,
[1:18:10] Ron, you're
[1:18:14] Yeah, sorry, just, just quickly,
[1:18:18] uh, on that question about um uh
[1:18:20] the uh property tax levels in
[1:18:22] other states. We do have um part
[1:18:24] that we do have census data that
[1:18:26] we put into our database that
[1:18:26] gets updated annually.
[1:18:30] Unfortunately, um, it's always
[1:18:30] like a couple of years in
[1:18:32] arrears because of the, the way
[1:18:34] the census data is collected. So
[1:18:36] I think we, our most recent data
[1:18:40] is either 23 or 24, but we can
[1:18:40] at least give you statistics
[1:18:41] like the median assessment.
[1:18:44] Value, median single home value,
[1:18:48] uh, median property tax, uh,
[1:18:50] median property tax is a
[1:18:52] percentage of income. So we do
[1:18:52] have metrics like that, that are
[1:18:54] available by state. We don't
[1:18:56] have it on the county level, but
[1:18:56] we do have it by state.
[1:19:00] Yeah, that would be very
[1:19:02] helpful um if you could provide
[1:19:03] that for
[1:19:04] What do you want?
[1:19:06] New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
[1:19:06] Maryland, and Delaware.
[1:19:12] Data, does that seem
[1:19:12] appropriate?
[1:19:13] Yeah, that
[1:19:14] OK.
[1:19:18] And we have.
[1:19:22] Mr. Del Grande, thank you, sir.
[1:19:24] Um, I was looking at the
[1:19:28] proposed agenda and the, the,
[1:19:28] the January 11th, now January
[1:19:30] 25th topic administration data
[1:19:34] and implementation. I'm kind of
[1:19:36] wondering, should we have a
[1:19:38] small discussion of that during
[1:19:40] each of these prior meetings
[1:19:42] because ultimately depending on
[1:19:44] where we go, um, every one of
[1:19:46] these topics is going to have an
[1:19:47] impact on.
[1:19:47] Um,
[1:19:48] Administration and costs and
[1:19:49] those types of things.
[1:19:50] So should that be?
[1:19:54] A part of each meeting prior to
[1:19:56] that, just for a general
[1:19:56] conversation, not for like
[1:19:58] getting into the weeds on
[1:20:00] things, but to give folks
[1:20:02] expectations of what's actually
[1:20:04] doable or not in a in a time
[1:20:06] frame for that. I think that
[1:20:08] that's quite reasonable, and I
[1:20:10] would expect that we'd be
[1:20:12] hearing from the counties
[1:20:14] We can't do that. Sounds like a
[1:20:16] great idea, but there's no way
[1:20:16] to implement that, or the
[1:20:20] implementation is gonna be
[1:20:20] extraordinarily expensive or
[1:20:21] whatever.
[1:20:22] I
[1:20:24] sort of, that's the reason
[1:20:25] everyone's here.
[1:20:28] So I expect that to come up
[1:20:30] during discussions and various
[1:20:30] approaches so.
[1:20:34] And I did want to have that as a
[1:20:35] separate
[1:20:36] uh thing also because.
[1:20:40] At some point we're going to be
[1:20:40] in our heads looking at these uh
[1:20:42] all these options and trying to
[1:20:44] figure out what do we think
[1:20:48] seems most reasonable or seems
[1:20:50] doable, and then, um, you know,
[1:20:52] it's sort of, you have that
[1:20:54] reality check as, OK, yes, these
[1:20:55] are.
[1:20:58] Doable, but the implementation
[1:20:59] side of this is gonna be.
[1:21:02] Very onerous, um, you know, who
[1:21:04] are not so onerous, so that'll,
[1:21:06] that'll, I like having that as a
[1:21:08] separate discussion topic as
[1:21:08] well. Great.
[1:21:12] And just add for the, for the
[1:21:12] team here, uh, New Castle
[1:21:14] County, we average about 1500
[1:21:16] senior exemption applications a
[1:21:17] year.
[1:21:20] And we do not require seniors to
[1:21:20] reapply every year.
[1:21:24] Oh. But we do, we do manage the
[1:21:26] program weekly. We look for
[1:21:28] changes that happen every week
[1:21:28] and adjust from there.
[1:21:30] Did someone have their hand up,
[1:21:32] Uh, Bob Becker had his hand up,
[1:21:34] but he put it down, so I don't
[1:21:36] know if he still wants to
[1:21:36] comment. Bob, did you still I
[1:21:37] did.
[1:21:40] I do have a question. I'm not
[1:21:42] sure this is possible, but when
[1:21:46] we look at surrounding states,
[1:21:46] counties, and taxes.
[1:21:50] We could be comparing apples to
[1:21:52] oranges with the reality that
[1:21:54] those states could have sales
[1:21:56] tax and a different type of
[1:21:58] income tax, so the complete
[1:22:00] picture of revenue for a county
[1:22:02] could be comprised of more
[1:22:04] components than what Delaware
[1:22:06] has, so not suggesting we expand
[1:22:08] the scope at all. I heard
[1:22:08] earlier that that's clearly
[1:22:10] beyond the scope, but the, at
[1:22:14] least some caveat to the data we
[1:22:14] pick up from the surrounding
[1:22:16] states that we may not be
[1:22:16] comparing apples and apples
[1:22:17] with.
[1:22:20] This one, particularly in states
[1:22:20] that have significantly higher
[1:22:24] sales tax or sales tax period.
[1:22:26] So is that possible or is that
[1:22:26] too big an ask given the time
[1:22:27] frame?
[1:22:30] Well, I think, I think we can
[1:22:34] probably uh at least recognize
[1:22:36] which states have
[1:22:36] uh
[1:22:40] allow municipalities or local
[1:22:42] entities to add to a sales tax,
[1:22:43] um.
[1:22:46] Which is, you know, I think that
[1:22:50] would be the fair comparison
[1:22:50] here. OK. Thank you.
[1:23:00] OK. Any other questions,
[1:23:01] comments?
[1:23:04] No one's sowing tomatoes, so I
[1:23:06] guess I didn't completely do a
[1:23:08] bad job, um, we just forgot.
[1:23:10] You forgot the tomatoes. All
[1:23:10] right.
[1:23:14] I think Senator Huxtable will
[1:23:14] have a tomato stand out in front
[1:23:18] just play ball before the next
[1:23:18] meeting any, any.
[1:23:22] Do I hear a motion? We have to
[1:23:22] do public comment first. Oh yes,
[1:23:24] sorry.
[1:23:26] Anyone for per for public
[1:23:28] comment in person. I don't have
[1:23:29] anyone signed up in person for
[1:23:30] public comment, but if there's
[1:23:32] anyone online who would like to
[1:23:32] give comments, please use the
[1:23:33] raise hand button.
[1:23:40] I'm not seeing any hands raised
[1:23:41] on Zoom.
[1:23:44] OK, since there's uh, so we've
[1:23:46] now concluded public comments
[1:23:47] OK, since there's uh, so we've
[1:23:47] now concluded public comment
[1:23:48] section.
[1:23:50] So actually someone.
[1:23:50] All right,
[1:23:50] uh, Susan Stewart.
[1:23:56] You should be able to unmute and
[1:23:56] provide comments.
[1:24:00] Excellent. Thank you so much. I
[1:24:01] appreciate it.
[1:24:02] Um, good morning, everyone.
[1:24:04] Thank you for convening this
[1:24:06] group. I find it incredibly
[1:24:08] fascinating. I'm actually
[1:24:10] joining you as uh a citizen of
[1:24:12] New Castle County, even though
[1:24:14] in my work life, I do work for
[1:24:16] DC government as a fiscal
[1:24:18] analyst, writing the 51 city tax
[1:24:20] burden study. Uh, I just wanted
[1:24:22] to offer up that if you have any
[1:24:22] questions, we'd be happy to
[1:24:24] share that study with you. It
[1:24:26] looks at the hypothetical
[1:24:28] families across 6 different
[1:24:30] families in, uh, 51 different
[1:24:31] cities across.
[1:24:34] All the different, different
[1:24:36] states and looks at tax burden,
[1:24:36] including property tax, sales
[1:24:44] tax, income tax, and, uh, auto
[1:24:44] taxes.
[1:24:48] But thank you for committing the
[1:24:50] group, and that's all my public
[1:24:50] comment. Thank you. Thank you.
[1:24:54] OK. Uh, that's it for virtual
[1:24:55] public comment.
[1:24:58] OK, having concluded the public
[1:25:00] comment portion, do I
[1:25:04] hear emotions from what you do
[1:25:04] in church.
[1:25:08] We, we have a motion and a
[1:25:10] second to adjourn. All in favor.
[1:25:11] Say aye.e.
[1:25:11] We, we have a motion and a
[1:25:11] second to adjourn. All in favor.
[1:25:12] Say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.
[1:25:13] All right.
[1:25:13] We, we have a motion and a
[1:25:13] second to adjourn. All in favor.
[1:25:14] Say aye. Aye. Bye.
[1:25:15] See you in a couple of weeks.
[1:25:16] Thank you everybody for being
[1:25:16] willing to do this. I know it's
[1:25:17] uh.
[1:25:20] It's not that easy to set time
[1:25:22] aside, and it's much appreciated
[1:25:24] and much needed. Thank you.