[0:06] we will
[0:07] we'll get this party started how
[0:08] about that
[0:12] good morning ladies and
[0:13] gentlemen and thank you for
[0:14] coming back today two of our
[0:16] revenue stabilization and tax
[0:18] policy interim committee
[0:19] appreciate the discussions that
[0:22] we had yesterday and as was
[0:25] discussed day one in in our
[0:26] meetings for this interim
[0:28] session day one will begin with
[0:29] kind of giving a background on
[0:30] the foundation for those
[0:32] discussions that we will have on
[0:34] day two which for the most part
[0:36] day twos will be the
[0:38] presentation of pieces of
[0:39] legislation proposed legislation
[0:40] by their spon
[0:43] s or s for the upcoming
[0:44] legislative session and so this
[0:47] is being done on the front
[0:49] and and and I just had a
[0:49] conversation withristina but
[0:53] iss is it easier this way
[0:54] nothing's ever easy in their
[0:56] world and they get that get that
[0:57] we're we're gonna go to oh
[1:02] a little bit of feedback you
[1:04] know we're we're gonna try to to
[1:05] help them out the the best way
[1:06] that we can and so with them
[1:09] drafting the bills upfront with
[1:10] with them by providing all of
[1:13] the context to the pieces of
[1:14] legislation hopefully during the
[1:16] session they won't be under the
[1:17] gun as much and and if they have
[1:18] to work on amendments that may
[1:20] be a little bit easier for them
[1:21] to do rather than presenting and
[1:23] creating a brand new bill
[1:25] during any one day or one
[1:28] week during the session so that
[1:29] being said I wanna again once
[1:29] again reiterate
[1:32] that this process again is one
[1:35] that that with all intent
[1:36] and purpose is done we're trying
[1:38] to create transparency and and
[1:39] provide an opportunity for all
[1:41] of us to begin to ask those
[1:41] real
[1:44] intriguing questions, difficult
[1:46] questions in many parts but at
[1:47] the end of the day of the end of
[1:52] the day of the day All right.
[1:54] got the remix this morning
[2:01] OK we the remix happening it's
[2:02] not intended to stifle
[2:05] yeah the DJ and that's right
[2:07] that'serrek DJy
[2:11] again it's not intended to
[2:13] stifle the process that we
[2:14] normally have in any one session
[2:17] this is simply meant to provide
[2:18] it an opportunity for all of us
[2:19] to begin to ask those questions
[2:21] and any one piece of legislation
[2:22] will not be endorsed here in
[2:23] this in this
[2:26] interim session but rather it
[2:28] will go through the these normal
[2:30] process but really at the end of
[2:32] the day for those that have a
[2:35] cost associated to the tax
[2:38] policy presented it will begin a
[2:40] process for for us to then begin
[2:43] to create a a budgetary ask from
[2:44] the legislative finance
[2:45] committeetee for the upcoming
[2:47] session so that we can then
[2:48] go into a session with some type
[2:49] of
[2:52] budget for a tax package
[2:54] rather than trying to work
[2:55] backwards and create a a a
[2:58] budget capacity during the
[3:00] session itself and with that
[3:02] being said, I also want to
[3:04] include that I would hope
[3:05] that that you provide
[3:07] opportunities to work well with
[3:08] our staff you know they they
[3:10] they work really hard for all of
[3:12] us and so for those of you
[3:14] that are having bills drafted or
[3:15] or that want to get on our
[3:18] agenda please do so and and
[3:19] and I know we do this anyways
[3:19] but in the in
[3:21] the most respectful way and I
[3:24] would also extend that to to
[3:25] those lobbyists that are working
[3:26] on behalf of their clients that
[3:28] when they're talking to or
[3:29] working with our staff or with
[3:32] any one of our legislators do so
[3:34] with respect because at
[3:35] the end of the day we're trying
[3:36] to make sure that that we are
[3:38] working as best as possible and
[3:39] and when we were met with
[3:44] with some friction it's not
[3:45] always the best and so I would
[3:45] ask the especially those
[3:46] lobbyists that are working on
[3:48] behalf of some of their clients
[3:50] to do so and in a respectful way
[3:52] and so with that being said we
[3:54] will begin our our morning
[3:55] session with
[3:58] senator Bobby Gonzalez. he has a
[3:59] couple of pieces of legislation
[4:00] that he wants to get in front of
[4:03] us on the front end and
[4:04] uhenator Gonzalez thank you for
[4:06] being here with us this morning
[4:07] and thank you for bringing the
[4:08] rain from Taos and we will begin
[4:10] with your first bill which is
[4:12] amending motor vehiclecle excise
[4:14] tax distributions and again
[4:16] senator we did have a discussion
[4:18] on with the DOT yesterday and
[4:20] we learned a little bit or a lot
[4:22] of bit about taxes and how
[4:24] they work and so this will be
[4:25] very much germane to the
[4:25] discussions
[4:27] and its continuation from
[4:29] yesterday so senator
[4:31] the senator the floor is yours
[4:31] sir.
[4:36] thank you Mr Chairman and
[4:37] members of the committee
[4:37] first of all
[4:39] just want to tell you
[4:43] it was very rewarding in many
[4:44] parts of the state yesterday
[4:46] seeing that rain and the most
[4:48] rewarding was seeing children
[4:50] playing outside on the rain they
[4:51] didn't want to go inside it felt
[4:54] good so that's a a good part
[4:57] for New Mexico the other part
[5:01] is on the first six years
[5:04] that I was elected to the house
[5:06] of Representatives I was on this
[5:07] this committee
[5:11] and so to me it's very
[5:12] special you know and
[5:14] and in those days and working
[5:16] with the the many issues and it
[5:18] continues and I know how hard it
[5:20] is and the planning that goes
[5:22] with it and that what it does to
[5:23] our state you know this is where
[5:25] it really comes you know it with
[5:25] a tax part
[5:29] and with a motor vehicle excise
[5:31] tax and the other piece of
[5:31] legislation that I have
[5:33] first of all is
[5:38] this is not about a democrat or
[5:40] Republican. it's about doing
[5:41] what's responsible.
[5:45] as legislators to our state and
[5:46] this is one department that
[5:51] really struggles into to
[5:52] recently that there's been some
[5:54] appropriations that have been
[5:56] made to the department that this
[5:57] department has to generate their
[5:58] own funding they're not
[6:02] connected to the general fund
[6:05] and it's it's been hard and
[6:08] also as we go through the
[6:09] presentation that
[6:12] the cost of doing business
[6:13] especially with
[6:16] the kind of work that has to be
[6:18] done with construction bridges
[6:20] and everything that goes with
[6:23] legal part and Eastman's and
[6:25] everything with the department
[6:26] everything has really escalated
[6:30] and today's presentation I hope
[6:32] I can give you that view of
[6:34] where we are because we haven't
[6:36] changed that part is the base of
[6:37] what generates the funding to
[6:37] this department
[6:41] and so with that sure I'll go
[6:43] ahead and start with a motor
[6:43] vehicle excise tax
[6:48] this bill does not raise a
[6:49] tax.
[6:52] it does not change the rate it
[6:54] does not change what is what is
[6:55] tax
[6:58] no one in New Mexico pays one
[7:00] cent more. He changes one thing
[7:01] where the money goes.
[7:06] and where the money goes now
[7:07] when you buy a car you pay the
[7:07] for
[7:12] this4cent tax of every dollar we
[7:14] collect59 cents goes to the
[7:17] general fund 22 cents goes to
[7:19] the road fund19 cents goes to
[7:20] the local project fund.
[7:24] and most of the car tax does not
[7:25] go to the roads.
[7:29] what the bill does is it flips
[7:32] the shares of or of every dollar
[7:34] 65 cents goes to the roads.
[7:38] 25 cents goes to the local
[7:41] project fund and10 sons stays in
[7:41] the general fund.
[7:45] that moves about159 million a
[7:45] year to the roads.
[7:50] the change starts July1st of
[7:51] 2027.
[7:52] why it makes sense
[7:55] you pay this tax when you buy a
[7:56] car.
[7:57] a car needs a road
[8:01] and it should be when you buy a
[8:01] vehicle
[8:06] the tax should should pay for
[8:08] the things it does it does tie
[8:09] to right now it does not.
[8:11] This fixes that
[8:14] The need is real. The department
[8:15] thinks that we have
[8:20] 75 billion in road work needs
[8:23] and we're only chipping away at
[8:24] that with the current
[8:25] distribution
[8:26] also
[8:33] or reference to to that7.5
[8:36] billion, the trip report shows
[8:37] very similar to the same needs
[8:37] of the state
[8:40] then no this past year
[8:44] we all know that we did pass
[8:45] that bond that is at1.5.
[8:49] and that is grateful that is
[8:51] good but you know it doesn't do
[8:53] what we actually need to be at
[8:55] or where we should be at but
[8:57] it's a it's a good part to to
[8:57] add to the department.
[9:05] in 2021 95 of every100 miles of
[9:08] our state noninterstate miles or
[9:09] in fair shape or better
[9:12] today it is about70
[9:13] of those
[9:18] 100 are going the wrong way.
[9:20] This bill helps your towns, your
[9:24] counties $1 in4 goes to
[9:24] transportation project fun.
[9:27] the fund makes grants
[9:31] to counties to cities and to
[9:31] tribes.
[9:34] the state pays up to 95 cents
[9:35] of each dollar
[9:39] or place in need and the state
[9:39] pays it all.
[9:44] this is about 20 million more a
[9:45] year for local roads.
[9:49] and at this part of
[9:52] Mister Chairman and members I
[9:54] would yield to if there's any
[9:56] comments there is any questions
[9:58] to this proposed legislation and
[9:59] also
[10:07] does your
[10:09] do you wish to make any further
[10:10] comments sir?
[10:16] m chairman and members of the
[10:19] committee I'mlin Turner I'm
[10:23] your body as a whole
[10:26] economist so I'm not here to
[10:28] support the bill or to oppose
[10:30] the bill but to either your
[10:32] chagrin or for your hopefully
[10:33] durable
[10:40] Reference I I serve the body so
[10:41] if you have any questions I'm
[10:42] here for that
[10:44] great thank you and also for the
[10:46] reverence of the committee right
[10:48] in the back of the proposed
[10:49] legislation is the is the
[10:52] analysis of the bill itself so
[10:53] for your reference it's right in
[10:55] the back of the bill and so with
[10:56] that being said we we'll open it
[10:58] up for some some questions and
[11:00] comments from the committee
[11:02] again stemming from the
[11:04] presentation made by the senator
[11:05] and also maybe even some of
[11:06] those questions that were
[11:08] proposed yesterday and some of
[11:10] the questions that were asked to
[11:11] the department itself when they
[11:11] were here presenting to
[11:14] us so that being said any
[11:16] questions or comments for the
[11:18] senator related to this
[11:19] amendment of the motorecle
[11:19] excise tax distribution.
[11:22] look it on the table
[11:25] Representative Gallegos
[11:30] thank you and and thank you
[11:32] senator for bringing this legis
[11:34] proposed legislation to you
[11:35] know you said it at the
[11:36] beginning of your presentation
[11:38] this is not a text. could you
[11:39] explain some of that explain
[11:40] that?
[11:42] very well
[11:46] this bill does not
[11:49] does not race attacks
[11:53] so it's what's current right now
[11:55] it's just the distribution how
[11:58] it's being set up today you know
[12:00] where the funding has been going
[12:01] the last few years.
[12:03] and the change would be on the
[12:04] distribution.
[12:08] and Misterir and senator I
[12:09] appreciate that because
[12:11] yesterday when the the roads
[12:14] department or DOT came to
[12:16] present they were really
[12:18] clear on that and they showed
[12:19] the different ways that the
[12:22] money can be spent and once I
[12:24] heard that I had a much
[12:26] different perception of of the
[12:29] bill than I did when I first
[12:30] read it on the agenda cause I
[12:32] thought you know when you first
[12:33] read it on the agenda, it looks
[12:34] like we're raising a tax and so
[12:35] just some feedb
[12:38] ack for you to to have to make
[12:40] sure that people understand
[12:42] what what you're trying to do, I
[12:44] I think especially in a time
[12:46] when people are worried about
[12:48] how much we're spending on gas
[12:50] how much we're spending on cars
[12:52] just the inflation overall
[12:54] going up that I think we need to
[12:55] be real clear on that Mr
[12:55] chairir.
[13:00] when will take representative
[13:02] any comment to that if not no no
[13:04] worries the only part Mr
[13:06] Chairman and to the members is
[13:08] I can't recall I should have
[13:09] looked at that part
[13:12] at one point it did come to the
[13:13] department.
[13:14] and then it was during those
[13:17] times when general fund when
[13:19] the lean years that the
[13:19] change was made
[13:23] but at one point or several
[13:26] times it is where it used to
[13:27] flow to the department
[13:33] Very well thank you any other
[13:34] questions or comments related to
[13:35] this issue from the committee.
[13:39] if not I I have a couple of my
[13:40] own senator if you if you don't
[13:42] mind and I appreciate the
[13:43] distinction that the
[13:44] representative was trying to
[13:46] make with you in regards to how
[13:48] this is communicated I guess for
[13:49] for the broader public that may
[13:51] be listening at home and may
[13:52] look at this and say well geez
[13:54] tax distribution tax tax tax
[13:55] what does that mean are we gonna
[13:56] are we gonna see an increase and
[13:58] I think it it it is well stated
[14:00] and and well taken at least by
[14:02] me and understanding that
[14:03] again referencing that this is
[14:05] not a new tax right we're not
[14:05] trying to impose a new tax
[14:08] it's just simple a a a
[14:10] reformulation if you will of how
[14:13] the current system and how those
[14:14] monies are distributed and to
[14:16] where right because yesterday
[14:18] in in the session that we had
[14:19] with the department of
[14:21] transportation they made it
[14:23] clear that the general fund
[14:25] receives a bulk of this money at
[14:26] this point is that correct
[14:27] senator?
[14:30] oh Mr Chairman that is correct.
[14:32] OK and and and saying that's
[14:33] correct then we want to make
[14:36] sure that if we're if we're if
[14:38] the intent is to help the roads
[14:40] and to help transportation then
[14:41] understanding that based on
[14:42] the conversation yesterday that
[14:46] the general fund today is is is
[14:47] doing well that the state is
[14:48] doing well the general fund is
[14:49] receiving the money that it
[14:51] should and appropriately from
[14:52] the other sources that it hasn
[14:54] and so if we can then
[14:56] redistribute this money that
[14:57] once went to their to the road
[14:57] fund
[14:59] it would help the department
[15:01] immensely for the projects that
[15:02] they have and so that being said
[15:04] I can appreciate where you're
[15:06] going with this and I think this
[15:07] is a discussion that we had and
[15:10] we well embraced as a
[15:12] committee yesterday that we
[15:13] understand that we want to make
[15:14] sure that we are helping the
[15:15] department knowing that they are
[15:17] self funded primarily as a
[15:19] department themselves a
[15:21] follow up question to that rep
[15:22] senator excuse me is that
[15:26] is there a road condition or a
[15:29] project target once reached that
[15:32] would indicate the transfer as
[15:33] this as this bill is presented
[15:35] has done its work
[15:43] Mr Chairman no maybe someone
[15:44] from the department might be
[15:45] able to address that
[15:48] we have anyone from the
[15:49] department
[15:54] not I I I think maybe it it's
[15:55] definitely a technical question
[15:57] because at this point re
[15:58] recognizing the department is
[16:00] huge there's thousands of miles
[16:02] of roadway that they maintain in
[16:04] our state, I I think that the
[16:06] point I was trying to make and
[16:07] the question that was posed to
[16:09] you was that if if there's a
[16:09] target if there's a stretch of
[16:10] road if there's a a large
[16:12] project and I'll take one that's
[16:13] on top of my head right now and
[16:14] that's in the city of
[16:16] Albuquerque and that's that
[16:17] stretch right there
[16:20] what is it uhtmontgomery right
[16:23] on I-25 on Montgomery that big
[16:23] project right and that's that
[16:24] that
[16:27] had to have taken a chunk of of
[16:28] monies's from the department to
[16:29] make sure that that was done in
[16:30] a timely and efficient manner,
[16:32] right and so if there are
[16:33] projects like that across the
[16:34] state if we can begin to
[16:37] redirect monies this way with
[16:38] the intent that we can get
[16:39] larger projects like that done
[16:41] all across our state right in
[16:42] the rural parts of our state
[16:43] that we know where there are
[16:44] roads that are crumbling at this
[16:46] point if we can address those
[16:48] then that's a huge win for our
[16:49] state and so I I wanna to make
[16:50] sure that
[16:52] we can impress upon that through
[16:54] this piece of legislation that
[16:55] those are the types of of
[16:57] projects that we can help to
[16:58] effect and bring change to
[16:59] positively.
[17:03] Mister Chairman with that
[17:05] that project you know I don't
[17:06] know where they're at as far as
[17:09] the total amount but just to
[17:11] give you an example north of
[17:13] Espanola when they started with
[17:16] that that was the first was
[17:19] like at18 million and I think
[17:20] the project ended up at34
[17:22] million and and that's just what
[17:24] we have been seeing due to the
[17:25] many different
[17:27] oh
[17:29] variables that happened to to
[17:30] everyone
[17:33] within the especially the
[17:35] last57 years of high costs to
[17:39] to materials high cost to labor
[17:39] high cost to
[17:42] just doing
[17:45] any kind of construction work.
[17:51] understood ok those are my
[17:52] questions and if they didn't
[17:54] know no other questions from the
[17:55] committee.
[17:56] OK Senator Hamlint vice
[17:57] chairwomanhamlet
[18:02] Thank you Mr Chair and and
[18:04] senator mine isn't really a a
[18:06] question but more of a comment
[18:07] because I appreciate this you've
[18:08] been you've been really cha
[18:10] championing this for quite
[18:11] some time to
[18:14] really you know be kind of
[18:16] the leader in something that all
[18:18] of us are seeing in all of our
[18:19] communities in terms of roads
[18:21] being in disrepair and and being
[18:22] able to make sure that we fund
[18:24] that if we have this opportunity
[18:26] to do that I look forward to
[18:28] this discussion in during the
[18:30] legislative session because I
[18:32] think all of us can bring to the
[18:35] table stories of how there are
[18:36] roads in our communities that
[18:38] are in desperate need of repair
[18:40] and if this is a way to more
[18:41] efficiently get money to where
[18:42] those
[18:45] projects can can be repaired
[18:46] to where those roads can be
[18:47] repaired in our communities
[18:49] cannot have to worry about the
[18:50] wear and tear on their shocks
[18:52] and on their tires and the
[18:54] safety of their children then
[18:55] I think that this will be a good
[18:56] thing and I'm glad that you're
[18:58] bringing it here today so that
[18:59] we can kind of do a little
[19:01] workshop on this and and figure
[19:02] out what's the best way to
[19:04] target those messages so that we
[19:05] can get this past the finish
[19:06] line, so I appreciate that
[19:08] senator thank you so much thank
[19:10] you Mr chairir youceroman let's
[19:11] go topresentative Parahon.
[19:14] you and senator just a quick
[19:18] question senator it do you
[19:20] know why originally it was the
[19:21] fund was distributed the way
[19:22] that it was.
[19:26] you mean currently or you mean
[19:29] sorry, I mean
[19:32] yeah how it's currently being
[19:34] distributed versus your new
[19:38] proposal and maybe someone has
[19:39] the tenure with the department
[19:41] is so
[19:45] at one point this did flow to
[19:46] the department.
[19:50] and then it was those ears that
[19:51] we were very lean on budget.
[19:54] that probably this is not the
[19:56] only fund that was taken it was
[19:59] to transfer the funding to the
[19:59] general fund
[20:04] and then once it was placed
[20:07] there it hasn't gone back and
[20:07] that's
[20:11] you know should have done you
[20:13] know or maybe have had a a way
[20:15] of looking at that more like a
[20:16] sunset but it didn't happen
[20:21] ur n ed senator
[20:23] thank you any other questions or
[20:24] comments for the senator before
[20:25] Representative Duncan.
[20:28] thank you Mr chairir you know
[20:30] when we when we talk about this
[20:32] stuff any monies that we can get
[20:33] to the road department that just
[20:34] means more companies in Mexico
[20:36] are going to be working and I
[20:37] think that's an economic driver
[20:38] and and so I just wanted to
[20:40] state that it makes common sense
[20:43] to use any money or any tax that
[20:45] the state is taxing anything to
[20:46] do with automobiles to go back
[20:48] to the one thing that they and
[20:49] they have a common denominator
[20:50] and that's odes so thank you Mr
[20:52] chair thank you for the comments
[20:53] sir let's go topresentative
[20:53] Montoya.
[20:56] and thank you Mr chairir
[20:58] senator if we would we had a
[21:00] brief conversation about this
[21:04] yesterday in committee and
[21:06] I think it's pretty I think I
[21:07] think there's a lot of consensus
[21:10] this year that to finally get
[21:11] this across the finish line to
[21:12] to get the dollars back
[21:16] to where the dollars are
[21:18] supposed to be going anyway I
[21:19] I think it's really hard with
[21:20] the
[21:24] the year after year of you know
[21:26] record budgets that we've had to
[21:27] think that we need to keep on
[21:30] taking these dollars and putting
[21:32] them into the general fund when
[21:35] like you stated likely
[21:36] ended up there in the general
[21:38] funded lean years we haven't had
[21:39] lean years for a while but we
[21:40] are still not distributing those
[21:42] dollars to the to the road funds
[21:44] so look forward to to
[21:46] supporting this and and
[21:47] anything that you
[21:50] any help you need I think
[21:51] you're gonna get a lot of help
[21:51] from members on this committee.
[21:56] thank youpresentative. any other
[21:57] questions or comments from the
[21:57] committee
[22:00] as a reminder folks the
[22:03] analysis that are in the back of
[22:05] the pieces of proposed
[22:06] legislation again those are
[22:07] prepared by the legislative
[22:08] finance committeetee and our
[22:10] chief Ishmael is isiorres is
[22:12] more than willing to come up to
[22:13] the podium should we have any
[22:14] more
[22:17] financial detailed questions
[22:18] that we want to ask that maybe
[22:20] the sponsor can't can't answer
[22:22] and so that being said for also
[22:23] those people that are are
[22:26] listening at home these are
[22:28] all online and so the proposed
[22:29] legislation as well as the
[22:30] analysis are all online on the
[22:33] agenda so you just click it and
[22:33] it'll link it to everything
[22:34] that we're looking to here
[22:36] and you can have that imprinted
[22:38] at home as well and so that
[22:39] being said with no other
[22:41] further questions Senator we
[22:43] appreciate your presentation on
[22:43] that portion of
[22:46] of the proposed legislation that
[22:47] you have we can now skip to the
[22:48] next one.
[22:50] and so the next one is
[22:50] increasing
[22:53] the gasoline tax and special
[22:55] fuels excise tax discussion.
[23:17] Thank you all Mister Chairman.
[23:19] on this one
[23:24] I just want to mention again and
[23:25] as I mentioned at the beginning
[23:28] I think we really really need to
[23:30] look at this is not as I
[23:32] mentioned a Democratub it's a
[23:36] responsibility that we owe to
[23:39] why we're elected and this is
[23:39] one part that
[23:44] that is so important to our
[23:45] infrastructure to our business
[23:48] to our economic development but
[23:50] the part that also you know
[23:52] worries me a lot
[23:53] is so
[23:54] the more deficient
[23:57] and the more we have
[24:00] the more possibilities of
[24:04] liability to the state or having
[24:05] not the adequate bridges the
[24:08] adequate strife the adequate
[24:11] roads and also you know to our
[24:13] economic development that
[24:14] prohibits to
[24:18] be in a more positive to our
[24:20] state versus you know taking
[24:22] longer to travel or or having a
[24:24] different problems with
[24:26] different parts of the state
[24:27] with our road system
[24:32] and the gas tax this what this
[24:34] legislation would do is the gas
[24:37] tax goes from17 cents to 20
[24:37] cents a gallon
[24:40] and let me mention
[24:47] When I started in1995.
[24:51] the first thing that happened
[24:52] that year
[24:56] there was a repeal to the gas
[24:57] tax of 6 cents.
[24:58] we went backwards
[25:00] We have never made that up.
[25:04] you know and you can just look
[25:07] at all those six cents over ir2
[25:10] years you know if you multiply
[25:11] that by what he would have
[25:11] generated to the state
[25:15] and so we're not even to where
[25:17] we used to be because we had
[25:19] that repeal of those six cents
[25:19] the gas tax
[25:22] on this legislation will go
[25:24] from17 cents to 20 cents a
[25:25] gallon. The diesel tax
[25:29] would go from 21 cents to 25
[25:29] cents
[25:33] re cents on the gas and4 cents
[25:36] on the diesel. It races about57
[25:39] million a year and all of it
[25:39] would go to the roads.
[25:43] how long has it been the gas tax
[25:46] has not changed since1995, that
[25:47] is ir1 years.
[25:50] The diesel tax has not changed
[25:51] since 204, that is 22 years.
[25:55] and think of what a gallon of
[25:58] gas cost in1995.hink of what the
[26:01] road crew cost and prices went
[26:02] up. I wrote money stood
[26:07] Whaty did to the raid
[26:12] to buy what17 cents bought
[26:13] in1995
[26:15] it would need37 cents today.
[26:20] to buy what 21 cents bond in 2
[26:21] or4.
[26:25] it'll take37 cents today, Both
[26:27] rates have been have lost about
[26:30] half of their worth, but let me
[26:31] pause here for a second because
[26:33] you're seeing17 cents
[26:36] and that's not a true number
[26:39] either because Ot of the se7
[26:40] cents that you have the tax
[26:43] the department only gets
[26:45] approximately13 cents the other
[26:46] increments are to the
[26:49] municipalities which is fine.
[26:50] they also need it but just
[26:55] the department is not getting
[26:56] the se7 it's a approximately13
[27:10] this bill would win back a small
[27:12] part of that it does not get us
[27:13] to halfway.
[27:16] where we stand next door to our
[27:18] neighbors. New Mexico has the
[27:20] fourth lowest gas tax in the
[27:21] country.
[27:24] we are lower than Texas,
[27:26] Colorado, Arizona, Utah and
[27:28] Oklahoma all of them at 20 cents
[27:30] it would still rank us445th
[27:33] we will tie with Oklahoma
[27:34] we would take
[27:38] 2,577 of the gas tax
[27:42] for each lane mile of road.
[27:44] the average in the country
[27:49] is12,684, that is five times our
[27:49] rate.
[27:53] why we keep falling behind
[28:02] I have water here
[28:10] cars go further on a gallon
[28:12] than they used to
[28:16] so people drive more miles but
[28:17] buy less gas.
[28:18] We collect less
[28:22] at the same time asphalt steel
[28:23] labor and all costs more.
[28:28] less money and higher cost out
[28:29] that is the whole problem.
[28:49] who gets the money about447
[28:50] million goes to the state road
[28:51] fund.
[28:55] about 9 million goes straight to
[28:55] the city and county road fun.
[29:00] but it costs the driver say you
[29:01] buy12 gallons a week.
[29:05] 3 cents a gallon is36 cents a
[29:06] week.
[29:09] what is under $20 a year.
[29:12] less than one tank it is under
[29:13] 20 a year
[29:16] badd roads cost them more in
[29:17] repairs.
[29:23] one blown tire, one bad road
[29:23] costs more than that.
[29:25] It is enough to fix a problem
[29:30] no but it it closes about 1/5 of
[29:34] the gap. It is the start and it
[29:35] is overdue.
[29:35] re cents
[29:38] this road carries our kids
[29:42] our economic development our
[29:43] crops
[29:44] and our freight
[29:46] they are worth
[29:47] three cents
[29:52] and with that all Mister
[29:55] Chairman and the members I'll
[29:55] yield at this time for any
[29:57] questions or any thoughts
[30:00] very good thank you very much
[30:02] senator let's go to vice
[30:04] chairmanhamlin with the first
[30:06] question. Thank you Mr Chair and
[30:08] and Senator I you know we we all
[30:10] I think recognize just how
[30:11] important it is that our roads
[30:12] get improved and whatever
[30:15] revenue sources we can get to
[30:17] target that and be really
[30:19] genuinely directed towards
[30:21] those repairs I think is what
[30:23] all of our intent is. I'm just
[30:25] wondering senator is this the
[30:26] right time to do this when we
[30:28] see gas prices go up, diesel is
[30:29] at an all time high
[30:32] I think the challenge will be
[30:34] to justify this when people are
[30:35] having a really hard time my car
[30:37] was55 dollars to fill up for a
[30:40] thir tank13 gallon tank of gas
[30:41] to drive all the way up here
[30:43] from Las Cruces and so I I
[30:43] wonder
[30:47] given given that people are
[30:49] feeling it right now in their
[30:50] their pocketbooks is this
[30:52] something to to how can you
[30:53] justify this?
[30:56] chairman no no
[30:58] madam vice chair
[31:02] you bring a a very good point
[31:04] but
[31:05] on my part
[31:10] it's never the right time
[31:13] I mean we should have done this
[31:14] 21 years ago we should have done
[31:17] it1f years ago and there's
[31:19] always something that goes into
[31:21] why it's not the right time and
[31:24] I do realize what's happening
[31:26] today on on the other hand I
[31:27] thought that
[31:30] the comment that was made also
[31:32] by senator Munoz yesterday
[31:37] saying the this is the first
[31:39] time that he have seen I-40 with
[31:40] fewer trucks
[31:44] so who's gonna be paying more
[31:45] when we don't receive the
[31:46] groceries we don't receive
[31:47] everything else
[31:50] and you know there again you
[31:51] know it goes to
[31:54] infrastructure and to the many
[31:56] parts of it but I won't disagree
[31:59] with you but again you know I
[31:59] have seen that
[32:02] it it was always it's that it
[32:03] was never the right time.
[32:06] and this is very incremental,
[32:07] very small.
[32:09] you know the state of Wyommen
[32:10] usually at times that they have
[32:12] done that it's on steps of10
[32:15] cents right away some states
[32:15] even higher
[32:18] but for us you know just
[32:19] bringing in a closing that gap
[32:19] of
[32:22] you know more you know
[32:24] and and it's needed
[32:30] Thank you, Mr chair and thank
[32:31] you senator, I don't disagree
[32:33] with you at all, Bobby, I I
[32:34] think it's senator, I think it's
[32:37] it's certainly something that
[32:38] you know is there ever going to
[32:39] be a right time I think the
[32:40] challenge for you when you're
[32:43] presenting this bill is really
[32:45] addressing those issues because
[32:47] every single person is going to
[32:48] think about how much they've
[32:49] just had to spend on their gas
[32:52] tank and filling up their gas so
[32:53] I think that that's just going
[32:54] to be the challenge for you is
[32:55] really nailing that and
[32:56] articulating just the the
[32:57] importance and how that does
[32:58] trick
[33:00] le down you know our
[33:02] colleague Senator Munoz I talked
[33:04] with him yesterday and he was in
[33:06] arizona last week and diesel was
[33:10] at like 6 dollars30 cents and
[33:12] and I think gas was over4
[33:14] dollars and so you know all of
[33:15] us are experiencing this in some
[33:16] capacity or another, so I think
[33:18] just the challenge for you
[33:20] senators like how to nail that
[33:22] when I think every single person
[33:24] is is kind of nodding their head
[33:25] or understanding how
[33:28] is this the right time right now
[33:31] and it's it's gonna be your
[33:34] skill and superpower to to
[33:35] target that to really drive that
[33:38] home. no mam chairman and madam
[33:39] chair of just to share with you
[33:44] when in 9596 when that
[33:45] repeal of sixth sense went
[33:45] through.
[33:49] and you know we have one part
[33:50] our part
[33:55] and industry went up11 cents
[33:56] like the next five days after
[33:57] that.
[34:00] and that's one part that we
[34:01] can't control, I mean that's a
[34:02] different level of of you know
[34:05] how that los but there is
[34:09] you know again you know here we
[34:09] did
[34:12] take ix cents off and
[34:13] immediately we saw11 cents go up
[34:14] and
[34:18] there was like almost nothing
[34:19] that we could do about it the
[34:19] only thing we did is we hurt
[34:20] ourselves
[34:22] you know and we have since then
[34:25] you know all those years that we
[34:25] have not
[34:28] captured that revenue and
[34:29] and it shows
[34:34] you know at one presentation I
[34:35] hope that that's not true
[34:36] anymore, but we had were
[34:39] school buses actually could not
[34:39] cross certain bridges
[34:43] you know and they were bringing
[34:44] the students with feeder rods
[34:47] you know up to that point
[34:48] because bridges were not safe I
[34:50] think we're out of that you know
[34:52] but just a few years ago we
[34:53] were at that point
[34:57] that's all Mister chairir thank
[34:58] you thank you senator
[35:00] thank you vice chairman let's go
[35:01] to Representative Montoya.
[35:06] thank you Mr Chair uhsenator
[35:08] once again I know this has
[35:09] been a long crusade for you to
[35:10] try and get our roads
[35:11] fixed
[35:13] I I would
[35:18] agree to some to some
[35:20] degree with with senator Hamblin
[35:21] but I would I would take it a
[35:21] different route which is
[35:24] when we've been experiencing
[35:29] these massive budget
[35:34] overages we've been we've been
[35:35] receiving a lot of money into
[35:35] the state coffers
[35:37] over the last five years
[35:40] and what I've seen during that
[35:41] time is
[35:44] a bunch of programs that we've
[35:47] created and a bunch of trust
[35:47] funds
[35:49] that we've created
[35:51] to fund
[35:54] this new project, this new
[35:56] program, and we've got a
[35:57] couple of
[35:59] trust funds that are
[36:02] funded in the tens of billions
[36:03] now.
[36:09] I agree I don't think this is
[36:10] the right time to raise taxes
[36:12] for multiple reasons but one
[36:15] being the the surpluses that
[36:16] we've been seeing in the last
[36:17] several years
[36:19] including this year we're going
[36:19] to see it again
[36:22] just wondering if you've
[36:23] considered that route of
[36:26] creating a a highway trust fund
[36:30] that dollars go into it and then
[36:31] a certain amount of money comes
[36:32] out of it
[36:38] you don't do it for this which
[36:39] is really needed
[36:40] uhm I can't hardly wait to see
[36:44] how this legislatures decides to
[36:47] spend3 billion dollars that is
[36:47] not recurring
[36:52] this session we'll we'll see all
[36:54] kinds of things that affect very
[36:56] very very few people across New
[36:57] Mexico where roads and
[36:58] infrastructure affects everyone
[37:01] I I would just suggest
[37:06] a new tax right now for the
[37:08] reasons that Senatorhamlin
[37:10] mentioned and then also for the
[37:13] the fact that we are that that
[37:17] state government is not lacking
[37:19] for money and hasn't lacked for
[37:20] money the last five or six years
[37:24] I would suggest a different
[37:26] route and I'd like to see the
[37:27] roads get that money before we
[37:30] before whatever it is we decide
[37:31] to fund
[37:35] come come the session I don't
[37:35] know what your thoughts are on
[37:36] that
[37:39] oh Mr chairman and vice chair
[37:39] and members so
[37:42] I'm open to whatever works
[37:46] d d ition al revenue to the
[37:47] department.
[37:50] and that is one very strong
[37:51] point that we
[37:56] Mr Chair once again and senator
[37:58] if that's something that that
[37:59] you're looking for some help
[38:01] with wouldn't mind helping
[38:02] you with that cause once again
[38:03] that's that's money that's
[38:03] sitting there that
[38:05] for whatever reason we as
[38:06] government
[38:07] can't not spend
[38:08] let's spend it on roads
[38:12] Thank you Mr chairir. very well
[38:14] thank you thank youpresentative.
[38:15] any other questions or comments
[38:16] from this committee?
[38:19] if not senator I I have a couple
[38:20] and maybe I don't know if it's a
[38:21] question but
[38:27] just just just previous to this
[38:28] presentation you talked about
[38:30] amending the motor vehiclecle
[38:31] excise tax distribution and it
[38:31] seems that
[38:36] that being a a no raising no new
[38:38] taxes discussion right and I
[38:40] think is generally appreciated
[38:42] and embraced by by people around
[38:44] this around this table that that
[38:47] brings in a h that if we made
[38:48] that change that would bring
[38:50] in153 million dollars per year
[38:53] of of monies and I'll say new
[38:55] money loosely to the department
[38:58] of Transportation which in in my
[39:00] mind completely absorbs the
[39:01] potential um57 million dollars
[39:04] that might be raised by
[39:05] increasing
[39:07] the taxes
[39:09] as as as I read the analysis
[39:14] is might that be a better
[39:16] alternative given the
[39:18] discussion that was had just now
[39:20] with a couple of comments that
[39:22] were received that maybe we just
[39:23] look at the redistribution of
[39:26] how we provide the excise
[39:28] taxes not to the general fund
[39:29] but to the road fund or to the
[39:32] department of transportation and
[39:34] you you you you make that57
[39:36] million plus another 90 some
[39:37] million on top of that
[39:39] do you have any comments towards
[39:40] that?
[39:44] Mister chairman no
[39:46] vice chair these are all
[39:47] excellent.
[39:50] excellent thoughts and excellent
[39:51] oath again you know we can put
[39:53] our minds together and you know
[39:53] when we feel that
[39:55] is accepted by
[39:59] the overall everyone that's more
[39:59] comfortable with and
[40:02] the important part is the
[40:03] objective is just to
[40:04] work with a
[40:09] to what it would bring recurring
[40:09] revenue to the department.
[40:14] and again senator with all
[40:15] due respect this is not an
[40:17] intent for me to try to walk you
[40:18] away from this piece of
[40:19] legislation. I'm just I'm trying
[40:21] to look at just the the piece of
[40:22] legislation you talked about
[40:24] before and how you know it
[40:27] raises again that um153 million
[40:30] dollars per year of again new
[40:31] money that once went to the
[40:32] general fund but then redirected
[40:34] to the to the road fund and then
[40:36] that way you don't have to in
[40:38] this case raise a tax and
[40:40] Mister Charman one part that
[40:41] always so amazes me is so
[40:44] every district
[40:48] every legislator looks at a if
[40:50] you want to call it look at
[40:51] themselves and they understand
[40:52] the needs of of their district
[40:58] and in my part I have a I have
[41:00] been proposing legislation for
[41:01] many years
[41:03] and it never has hurt my
[41:04] election.
[41:08] you know and and I think to
[41:10] as I mentioned the
[41:12] responsibility part to your
[41:13] constituents
[41:14] you know they also want an
[41:16] answer you know why isn't this
[41:18] road fixed or why isn't this
[41:19] traffic light
[41:22] and I think this also shows
[41:23] so
[41:24] we're trying you know but
[41:28] you know it's not something that
[41:30] by doing it that he would hurt
[41:31] you it's I I see it positive
[41:33] you know it's so
[41:36] anything to increase the
[41:37] possibilities of making
[41:39] every street every road safer.
[41:45] and and and finally senator
[41:48] it takes a lot of courage for
[41:49] for you to being a piece of
[41:50] legislation legislation like
[41:52] this at a time like this and and
[41:53] again you're not doing it for
[41:55] yourself you're not doing it
[41:56] because it's a Democrat or
[41:58] Republican matter right you're
[42:00] doing it for the for the greater
[42:01] good of the state and the roads
[42:02] that we all utilize on a daily
[42:04] basis and so I can appreciate
[42:05] that and this this couldn't have
[42:08] been in an easy discussion to
[42:09] want to engage in this morning
[42:10] but nonetheless you're bringing
[42:11] this and and that's what I think
[42:12] this is this is
[42:15] the process that I'd I I can I'm
[42:18] trying to engage in now so that
[42:19] we can know what's coming down
[42:20] the pipe so that we can begin to
[42:22] in this case if if you say well
[42:24] let's collaborate let's let's
[42:26] gather some ideas fantastic you
[42:28] have4 months before our ours
[42:30] session begins right and so we
[42:32] can begin to to to collaborate
[42:34] in those ways at the end of
[42:36] the day again this the intent
[42:37] of this committee at this point
[42:39] is simply just to garner ideas
[42:40] and again these are not
[42:43] revenue spending initiatives
[42:45] these are in many cases
[42:46] generating revenue generating
[42:50] initiatives and so I
[42:51] appreciate that bless you
[42:54] and and as we move forward
[42:56] our staff is here to help you
[42:58] and and we will continue to
[43:00] develop your ideas and again the
[43:02] the intent is not to persuade
[43:04] you to do something or another
[43:05] the intent of this is to get
[43:06] people thinking about what's
[43:08] gonna be discussed more in
[43:10] detail and then its essentially
[43:12] voted upon as you move into the
[43:14] next legislative session and so
[43:15] with that senator if you have
[43:17] any final comments welcome to to
[43:17] make those if not
[43:19] happy
[43:21] Mister Chairman no members
[43:21] though
[43:24] thank you first of all you know
[43:25] for the opportunity to present
[43:26] this
[43:28] and we just need to have that
[43:30] open
[43:33] dialogue you know keep going and
[43:34] you know just everyone to where
[43:38] we can work together and I am
[43:40] open to suggestions and I am
[43:41] open to trying to
[43:43] different ways that
[43:45] that we can work with to
[43:48] again you know just to bring
[43:52] back that needed part that is
[43:53] needed so bad you know by the
[43:53] department
[43:54] and
[43:58] if each one of you was to take a
[43:59] site visit
[44:02] we get the proper name that they
[44:05] use but where they warehouse or
[44:08] their equipment their snowplows
[44:09] trucks and everything they're in
[44:10] that shape
[44:14] you know a very sad and you know
[44:16] yet we expect them to work and
[44:18] we expect him to do the work
[44:20] that's needed when we do have a
[44:24] a big snowfall or what we have
[44:25] and to have proper equipment
[44:25] for that
[44:28] and I can take anyone to any
[44:29] of the
[44:30] of those so
[44:33] you know warehouses that they
[44:33] have with the equipment
[44:34] and
[44:38] so the point is so
[44:40] funding is needed for the
[44:41] department.
[44:42] thank you
[44:45] thank you senator appreciate
[44:46] your time this morning and
[44:47] you're welcome to sit up here
[44:48] and join us for the rest of the
[44:49] meeting but again thank you for
[44:50] the presentation this morning.
[44:52] thank you to all of you thank
[44:56] you let's move on our agenda to
[44:59] the next one which is senator
[44:59] sharer will be presenting this
[45:02] on behalf of senator Joshua
[45:04] Sanchez who could not be here
[45:05] this morning
[45:05] and
[45:10] Senator Sher will be talking us
[45:12] through providing a groce
[45:14] receipts tax deduction for dyed
[45:15] diesel.
[45:20] And there's no greater voice
[45:22] fory diesel in the state than
[45:23] senatorhi.
[45:32] OK sure thing
[45:44] me too I think Mrir all of us
[45:45] would agree on that one
[45:48] that that's bipartisan that
[45:51] that Pam andizzie are are the
[45:52] brains behind a lot of the crazy
[45:53] ideas that we come up with
[45:58] No no no no no
[46:01] lo a ' s yours sir whenever
[46:01] you're ready.
[46:08] thank you Mr chairir so first
[46:10] this is a a fairly simple bill
[46:12] as you can see it's really
[46:14] one page if you take out all of
[46:16] the blank spaces on it and it's
[46:18] a repeal and replace that's
[46:20] that's what it really does. so
[46:21] it repeals the grocery receipts
[46:24] tax credit and replaces it with
[46:26] a grocery receipts tax deduction
[46:27] on dyed fuels and
[46:29] so
[46:34] really the way I I look at this
[46:36] is this is what I would refer to
[46:40] as a peta factor bill so pITA
[46:41] that's peti factor that's pain
[46:45] in the rear factor and so the
[46:47] way it works right now it's a
[46:48] it's a relatively high peta
[46:51] factor on the taxpayer and this
[46:52] would make it a low peta factor
[46:53] on the taxpayer.
[46:56] and of course for those that
[46:58] in the world that don't
[47:00] understand the die diesel it's
[47:02] really for offroad use so
[47:04] typically agriculture but it
[47:05] could be for anything that's not
[47:06] on the road so if you've got a
[47:08] piece of construction equipment
[47:09] somewhere that's using diesel
[47:10] you could use the dyed diesel
[47:13] there as well and why it's
[47:15] because it's not on the road
[47:16] therefore it's not paying the
[47:17] road tax cause it didn't use the
[47:18] road.
[47:19] and so that's
[47:23] that's really the whole
[47:23] idea of
[47:26] behind it being different
[47:28] than what goes in the in the
[47:30] your truck that's going down the
[47:31] road.
[47:36] on the analysis here that
[47:38] that isn't so eloquently did and
[47:39] so I have to challenge him on a
[47:42] couple of things here so on
[47:44] page two of the analysis he
[47:47] talks about number 2 the
[47:48] theory of the change color. does
[47:50] it identify the taxpayer
[47:52] behavior that's intended to
[47:53] influence and that's really
[47:54] where I would say
[47:57] it's just a peta factor thing.
[47:59] If I have to spend an hour doing
[48:01] something or3 minutes doing
[48:02] something well why are you gonna
[48:04] make me spend an hour doing it
[48:06] so let's just let the
[48:08] taxpayer do it as quickly and
[48:09] simply as possible.
[48:11] so I think that's what this is
[48:12] is really about. Another
[48:14] question here is does the
[48:16] proposal estimate the impact on
[48:18] the general fund. Well further
[48:20] up on that list it says the
[48:22] fiscal impact report scored at
[48:23] $6 million.
[48:26] a year for general fund and4
[48:27] million to local governments.
[48:30] so yeah we do know what it's
[48:32] gonna cost, OK? but there
[48:33] clearly is
[48:35] let me read something
[48:38] something else that I had here
[48:40] now I've eaten
[48:44] there clearly is
[48:46] a
[48:51] confusion on what all of this
[48:52] might mean so I think that
[48:54] there's that's that's part of
[48:56] the peti factor thing because
[48:58] TRD is confused the the the
[49:00] taxpayers are confused other
[49:01] people are trying to figure this
[49:02] out just simply trying to to
[49:04] make it so that it all makes
[49:05] sense to everybody.
[49:07] and so that's what it does
[49:09] and so
[49:15] barring any real major 2%
[49:16] grocery receipts tax tax reform
[49:18] bill that would actually fix all
[49:20] of our taxes I think that
[49:22] this is a a a wise use of just
[49:24] trying to make it easier for the
[49:25] taxpayer to figure out how to
[49:25] pay the
[49:35] Senator share you impressed us
[49:35] all
[49:36] you didn't ask for Pam's help at
[49:37] all
[49:38] good
[49:44] OK. any questions for the
[49:45] senator let's start with
[49:45] Representative Duncan.
[49:48] thank you Mr chairir.
[49:52] quick question for you and and
[49:54] um'm think I know the answer.
[49:56] So I get in my tractor, I drive
[49:58] down the gas station from my
[49:59] farms about
[49:59] two minutes.
[50:02] so I get out there and fill up
[50:04] my tractor this week. next week
[50:06] you're done fill it up again are
[50:08] we talking about diesil that's
[50:09] delivered to my farm or are we
[50:10] talking about diesel that I can
[50:12] just go buy and then I keep the
[50:13] receipt at the end of the year
[50:17] actually with the dyed diesel
[50:18] the way it's supposed to be that
[50:20] tractor's not supposed to be on
[50:21] a public road using the dyed
[50:21] diesel.
[50:26] I know you're doing it anywhere
[50:30] so you take it in your pickup
[50:32] truck and you fill up the cans
[50:33] and you drive back to your
[50:33] tractor.
[50:36] Miss chair that sounds like a
[50:38] really good idea in theory, but
[50:40] when you're 67 years old and
[50:41] diesel can weighs
[50:44] 40 pounds that's not gonna
[50:46] happen very much and a lot of
[50:47] these farmers are the same age
[50:50] as I am or older so I guess my
[50:52] question is I have to have that
[50:54] delivered is that what you're
[50:55] saying I have to have my own
[50:55] tank there
[50:57] umm chairir that's
[51:01] the idea behind the the diesel
[51:03] is that it wasn't on the roads.
[51:06] Does it happen? Yes. Is the
[51:07] state cop gonna just drive past
[51:09] you probably ok because
[51:11] we're in New Mexico
[51:14] right? but the whole idea is
[51:17] that this is really for ag use
[51:17] or off
[51:21] offhigway use of whatever the
[51:22] the piece of equipment might be
[51:26] and that's that's the idea
[51:27] they're not using the roads
[51:28] therefore they don't have to pay
[51:29] the road tax.
[51:32] I understand the reality. I
[51:33] think anybody that doesn't live
[51:34] inside of Albuquerque
[51:34] understands the reality
[51:41] Thank Mr Cha but senator on that
[51:43] what would be my mechanism then
[51:45] to be able to get this tax
[51:46] credit at the end of the year
[51:48] amm I going to keep the receipt
[51:50] I get from the gas station or do
[51:51] I have to have it delivered to
[51:52] my farm? What what what do we
[51:54] need to do there? So this is
[51:56] imposed on the on the seller so
[51:57] you don't have to do anything as
[51:58] the farmer
[52:02] good. Second thing to that Mr
[52:04] chairir and it's only a4
[52:06] million dollars hit but I always
[52:07] think about what it does to
[52:09] municipalities and the GRT that
[52:09] they're going to be hit with
[52:12] and that's my concern with this
[52:14] when we when we rode them so
[52:16] thank you som chair please
[52:17] ignore the big guy in the back
[52:17] that's shaking his head no.
[52:31] re representative did you have a
[52:34] question to that? No I I just
[52:35] that I just wanted to make that
[52:36] statement. I worry about
[52:39] whenever we we get this I also
[52:42] miser also understand dye diesel
[52:43] has to be delivered you can't
[52:44] get it from a gas station so
[52:45] thank you
[52:48] thank youpresentative
[52:50] so Mr chairir I did I did make
[52:51] an error that's why Pam is here
[52:51] to make sure that I'm
[52:52] that I'm
[52:57] trying to be honest with you
[53:00] so I misread what it what it is
[53:02] so the the impact of the general
[53:04] fund on page one of of this
[53:08] analysis is uh16.8 million to 26
[53:09] million
[53:11] or to the general fund 9.6
[53:15] to1f million to the local
[53:19] municipalities. so that's
[53:21] that's the real impact and of
[53:22] course the five year impact is
[53:23] lifetime big
[53:26] appreciate you better correct
[53:28] that and make sure that
[53:29] otherwise Pam was gonna kick me
[53:30] again.ppreciate the
[53:32] clarification. let's go to vice
[53:33] chairman Hamlin and then we'll
[53:34] go to senator wirth and all of
[53:36] us thank you Mr Chair all of us
[53:37] who know Pam know that she's not
[53:39] really kicking senator sharer
[53:42] under the table but it is a
[53:43] lovely dynamic to always watch
[53:45] to watch the two of you
[53:46] mine's more of of a comment
[53:48] senator and and we've had this
[53:50] bill before our committee in the
[53:52] senate a couple of times in my
[53:53] district I've got a lot of
[53:54] farmers and
[53:57] and they and and I have
[53:58] pulled up behind a trail a
[54:00] tractor on the road on highway
[54:01] 28 going through the the
[54:02] beautiful pecan orchards that we
[54:05] have and so I think with this
[54:07] the the importance will be to
[54:09] get the word out about that for
[54:10] them so that they understand
[54:13] that but also I I like with
[54:14] my colleaguepresentative Duncan
[54:17] is as we know anytime there's a
[54:18] conversation about GRTs and
[54:21] removing GRTs those communities
[54:23] that benefit from that
[54:23] start to panic a little bit
[54:26] and and understandably so
[54:28] because they're looking at all
[54:29] of a sudden a revenue stream
[54:31] that they were expecting that is
[54:32] not going to be coming in
[54:34] anymore so my my comment more
[54:36] is I I just look forward to more
[54:38] conversation about it because I
[54:40] see the value of it, but I also
[54:41] see the concern about it and so
[54:43] I I'm hoping that there is a way
[54:45] to kind of get there to where we
[54:47] can we can implement this to
[54:48] where the communities that
[54:49] benefit from that GRt don't
[54:51] feel it
[54:55] in a in a really bad way and I'm
[54:57] looking at our TRD folks and and
[54:59] and uhizzy you know because I do
[55:00] think that there is a
[55:02] possibility it's just you
[55:03] know having those conversations
[55:04] to see how we get there because
[55:05] I know that people in my
[55:07] district will certainly
[55:08] certainly appreciate it thank
[55:10] you Mr chair thank you Viceruman
[55:12] let's go to Senatorwirth thank
[55:13] you Mr Chair.
[55:14] So I just want to understand I
[55:15] do I also remember this film
[55:16] lots of discussion about this
[55:17] bill
[55:20] so this past though right we did
[55:21] some kind of die diesel
[55:24] I'm looking at the sheet here
[55:26] looks like 2024 it was part of
[55:28] the om of this bill and I guess
[55:29] I want to understand
[55:32] what did we pass? what are we
[55:33] changing and why do we need to
[55:33] change it
[55:36] uhmir senator a couple of years
[55:38] ago in the tax package the
[55:40] credit was passed for dieteil
[55:42] for agricultural purposes and
[55:43] that's what's being repealed in
[55:46] this bill and re and replaced
[55:48] with the deduction and the
[55:50] credit is discussed in in the
[55:52] analysis of the proposal
[55:52] analysis and talks about how
[55:54] it's limited to agricultural
[55:55] use. it has a10 million dollars
[55:56] cap which is why it was
[55:58] limited to $6 million hit to the
[56:00] general fund4 million dollars to
[56:02] the locals because it had that10
[56:03] million dollar cap and
[56:03] those will go away
[56:06] because with the deduction you
[56:07] can't have it's
[56:10] near I can't and I can't see
[56:12] how a cat can be administered
[56:13] with a deduction because they're
[56:13] just
[56:16] claimed differently deductions
[56:17] are extremely difficult to to
[56:18] watch ac. I think the only way
[56:20] you could do it is by auditing
[56:21] taxpayers and don't think
[56:21] anybody wants that
[56:24] so and I guess Mr chair does it
[56:26] make sense to make this shift
[56:28] mean why would we go away from a
[56:32] agricultural use with a cap with
[56:33] a set hit
[56:37] to something that goes from you
[56:39] know for local governments iss
[56:40] rep Duncan said I mean this is
[56:42] going from4 million to15 million
[56:43] dollar
[56:44] and I just what what's the
[56:47] give me the thinking between
[56:49] expanding it beyond agriculture
[56:50] which I think is what it does is
[56:53] now all off road, correct on top
[56:54] of agriculture so Mister Chair
[56:56] Senator, yes
[57:00] but again if we're trying to
[57:01] build the things in New Mexico
[57:04] if we're actually trying to
[57:06] create an economy and and make
[57:08] things happen. Well those pieces
[57:09] of equipment that are digging
[57:10] big holes in the ground or those
[57:12] pieces of equipment that are
[57:14] flattening the ground or
[57:16] whatever would then be
[57:17] included and therefore
[57:17] hopefully
[57:23] created a a longer lasting
[57:24] stronger economy. Today our
[57:26] economy is kind of limited oil
[57:27] and gas federal government
[57:29] healthcare mean that
[57:32] overs our economy so can we can
[57:33] we do
[57:37] And Mr Chan, would this apply to
[57:38] recreational offroad vehicles
[57:39] that use diesel.
[57:43] I
[57:46] any vehicle
[57:50] any any die diesel purchase.
[57:54] and so I guess just to
[57:55] understand it so if I've got
[57:56] umm hauling
[58:00] four wheelers that use diesel
[58:02] right now can I purchase die
[58:04] diesel or would this change the
[58:06] right now I paying $6 for diesel
[58:07] and this would
[58:10] w itch ing over to die diesel I
[58:11] guess that
[58:14] off road vehicles currently are
[58:15] they able to use ye diesel?
[58:18] that's unfortunately out of my
[58:19] expertise. do we have anybody
[58:19] who
[58:22] lin s islin still here do you
[58:23] know that the answer
[58:27] the secretary here Izzie's here
[58:34] we have the off road vehiclecle
[58:36] expert Ismaelorris and and
[58:38] and
[58:41] I don't know if you want yeah
[58:42] happy to do that mis chair and
[58:43] senator wirth they are
[58:46] interchangeable so if you are
[58:48] currently on off-road vehicle
[58:50] or user you know there's other
[58:52] uses of dye diesel than just
[58:54] offroad vehicles you can use
[58:56] undyed diesel as well and so
[58:58] currently the unda diesel the
[59:00] road the diesel used for for
[59:03] roads has special fuels excise
[59:05] tax that's a set rate as we were
[59:06] just discussing with Senator
[59:07] Gonzalez and so
[59:09] as the price rises of diesel as
[59:12] you mentioned $6 you know the
[59:13] tax doesn't rise on the undai
[59:15] diesel but because die diesel
[59:15] has a GRT on it
[59:17] which is a percent of the value
[59:21] you you actually have a higher
[59:22] there are certain prices where
[59:24] you have a higher tax on the dye
[59:25] diesel than the non dye diesel
[59:27] but those offroad vehicles could
[59:28] always just use the undy diesel
[59:30] to continue running if it's a
[59:31] lower price
[59:36] thanks and thanks Mr Chair. just
[59:37] one more question I remember
[59:40] Pam you had huge heartburn about
[59:41] this bill when we passed it and
[59:44] and it working you know the
[59:46] existing so switching over from
[59:48] the credit to the deduction. I
[59:49] mean it sounds like from a
[59:50] policy standpoint that's cleaner
[59:51] to
[59:54] implement I just get your
[59:56] thoughts on that it in regard
[59:58] to the cap if you want to cap it
[59:59] you really need to make it a
[1:00:00] credit but it it is harder to
[1:00:02] administer it's hard for
[1:00:04] compliance it's it's more
[1:00:06] cumbersome on both for tax and
[1:00:08] rep and for the taxpayer, but if
[1:00:09] you want a cap
[1:00:11] you you I think you have to do
[1:00:11] credit.
[1:00:12] thank you Mrir
[1:00:16] thank you senatororth great
[1:00:17] questions. let's go to
[1:00:17] Representative Monto
[1:00:22] thank you Mr Chair senator
[1:00:25] I actually like the discussions
[1:00:27] we've had in this committee the
[1:00:27] last two days.
[1:00:29] seems to be
[1:00:32] that a lot of what we're talking
[1:00:35] about is truth truth in
[1:00:38] government truth and taxation
[1:00:39] it just seems like
[1:00:42] almost in every category of
[1:00:43] taxation
[1:00:43] in this state
[1:00:46] we have some peculiarity
[1:00:50] where a certain portion of this
[1:00:51] tax goes to the general fund
[1:00:52] even though it's not related to
[1:00:53] the general fund
[1:00:56] so I think in just
[1:00:59] from a
[1:01:02] purityian government
[1:01:04] logic
[1:01:07] standpoint I like the idea of
[1:01:11] if it's if this is not
[1:01:14] a fuel that's being used on our
[1:01:15] highway
[1:01:18] shoulduld be should be taxed
[1:01:19] that way
[1:01:22] so I I I like the idea of making
[1:01:23] a cleaner
[1:01:24] once again
[1:01:26] because we got here
[1:01:28] it's gonna be hard
[1:01:32] because of as mentioned the
[1:01:34] the local municipalities just
[1:01:35] seems like every time we fix
[1:01:35] something
[1:01:38] they're the ones that take the
[1:01:39] biggest brunt of it state
[1:01:39] government can take a bigger
[1:01:43] hit and it doesn't matter as
[1:01:45] much but the local government so
[1:01:48] I I I want to see this going
[1:01:50] forward how if if we can make it
[1:01:51] happen but I think it's a lot
[1:01:52] cleaner than we're going to tax
[1:01:53] you and then we're going to give
[1:01:54] you something back through a
[1:01:55] credit
[1:01:57] and also it
[1:02:00] the farm equipment is not the
[1:02:01] only thing that
[1:02:03] is not you know, no backhoe
[1:02:05] should be
[1:02:09] you know I I've seen backho's
[1:02:09] you know tram on the road
[1:02:15] you know a short distance but
[1:02:16] generally they're not not on the
[1:02:17] road they're they're being
[1:02:20] hauled and and it doesn't make
[1:02:22] sense that we would tax
[1:02:23] somebody that's doing excavation
[1:02:26] or running a greater you know
[1:02:27] you're not running a grader on a
[1:02:27] on the highway
[1:02:31] so I I I like I like the concept
[1:02:31] but
[1:02:34] it it always seems like the the
[1:02:36] the weight of something like
[1:02:37] this to make it
[1:02:38] make more sense is always
[1:02:39] harder than it would seem
[1:02:42] just like your 2%
[1:02:46] across the board GRT seems
[1:02:47] really simple.
[1:02:50] rilliant ok since I didn't say
[1:02:53] that but someone did
[1:02:56] thank you Mr chairir.
[1:02:59] thank youpresentative questions
[1:02:59] or comments
[1:03:02] if not I I have a couple if you
[1:03:03] don't mind
[1:03:03] yes sir
[1:03:09] so the secretary if she wants
[1:03:10] can explain some of the
[1:03:13] technical issues which may
[1:03:14] contradict not contradict but
[1:03:16] contradict my purpose not
[1:03:17] contradict anything else I don't
[1:03:17] think but
[1:03:20] but just to be fair so we've
[1:03:21] got honesty in what we're doing
[1:03:22] here
[1:03:25] if you don't mind sure no
[1:03:26] secretary you're welcome thank
[1:03:28] you senatorch Mr Chair and
[1:03:31] members I I think it's it's
[1:03:32] been discussed pretty well, I
[1:03:33] think the part that I could try
[1:03:34] to add and clarify for the
[1:03:36] committee is that GRT
[1:03:39] doesn't really work well with
[1:03:41] credits you know the personal
[1:03:42] income tax or the corporate
[1:03:44] income tax are a really good
[1:03:46] vehicle for credits because you
[1:03:48] file once a year you claim your
[1:03:50] credit once a year it's the the
[1:03:51] credit claiming process is more
[1:03:52] burdensome for both the taxpayer
[1:03:54] and the department, but you do
[1:03:56] it once a year GRT usually gets
[1:03:58] paid every month and so what we
[1:04:00] found is there are about3 new
[1:04:01] GRT credits that have been
[1:04:02] enacted in recent years there's
[1:04:04] this this one for ye diesel and
[1:04:06] then there were two related to
[1:04:07] the calfs canyon and her
[1:04:07] r m it ' s eak fires
[1:04:10] and none of them have been used
[1:04:12] very extensively by taxpayers
[1:04:13] like in the latest tax
[1:04:15] expenditure report we had to
[1:04:18] asterisk out the number of
[1:04:19] claims and the amount claimed
[1:04:20] for thisdy diesel credit because
[1:04:21] there were fewer than3 claims.
[1:04:25] so you're you're foregoing
[1:04:26] almost no revenue and almost no
[1:04:27] taxpayers are bothering to use
[1:04:28] it.
[1:04:30] because it's just too
[1:04:31] burdensome. The other problem
[1:04:32] with the credit right now is
[1:04:34] that the way that it's
[1:04:35] structured it's already been
[1:04:37] stated that the seller of the
[1:04:38] die diesel is the one that
[1:04:40] claims it but at the time of
[1:04:42] sale the seller would have to
[1:04:43] collect from the purchaser
[1:04:45] something in writing saying that
[1:04:46] they're going to use it
[1:04:48] primarily for egg and they
[1:04:50] didn't pass on thegRT and
[1:04:51] there's it puts the seller in a
[1:04:52] difficult position to have to
[1:04:56] make sort of make a statement
[1:04:59] to the state that I sold it to
[1:05:00] someone else and they told me
[1:05:02] they intended to use it for ag
[1:05:03] and that's just not something
[1:05:04] that they understand well or are
[1:05:06] really very excited to do
[1:05:08] because they're thinking well, I
[1:05:09] could get audited on this for
[1:05:10] many years and I don't'm not
[1:05:12] gonna have any contact with that
[1:05:14] purchaser anymore so those are
[1:05:16] some of the reasons that the
[1:05:18] current credit doesn't work
[1:05:20] well. I believe the reason you
[1:05:22] all as a body structured as a
[1:05:23] credit was because it allowed
[1:05:23] you to put a cap
[1:05:25] on it and so there was an
[1:05:27] estimated $6 million state
[1:05:29] general fund reduction4 million
[1:05:31] locals but really it's just
[1:05:33] too burdensome to do credits in
[1:05:34] the GRT and we would always
[1:05:36] advise just if you're if you're
[1:05:38] trying to give GRTre if you need
[1:05:39] to do it as a deduction.
[1:05:42] thank you for the clarification
[1:05:44] a couple of comments from from
[1:05:46] myself and I appreciate the
[1:05:47] context that senatorwirth
[1:05:50] provided in regards to the
[1:05:51] recollection of when we passed
[1:05:53] this in 2024 for the first time
[1:05:54] and and and how we're trying to
[1:05:57] improve it if we put a cap on
[1:05:59] it at10 million dollars then how
[1:06:00] close have we
[1:06:03] how close have we got to that10
[1:06:03] million dollars today.
[1:06:07] Chairman
[1:06:10] I can't even tell you the amount
[1:06:11] that's been claimed because
[1:06:13] fewer than3 taxpayers have
[1:06:15] claimed it it's a very very very
[1:06:17] small amount but to protect tax
[1:06:18] that's how small it is to
[1:06:20] protect confidentiality of the
[1:06:22] taxpayers they can't even
[1:06:23] disclose that amount it's very
[1:06:25] small. OK appreciate that and
[1:06:26] and and maybe this is a question
[1:06:27] for
[1:06:28] our our
[1:06:34] offroad vehicle expert Mr
[1:06:36] Ishmael Torres what did we know
[1:06:38] that the price of a gallon is
[1:06:40] that is that how they sold the
[1:06:41] price of a gallon of diet diesel
[1:06:43] what's the price today versus
[1:06:44] what's the I mean, I just saw
[1:06:47] coming up to Santay the price of
[1:06:49] diesel at the pump is 625.
[1:06:50] what's the price of a diet
[1:06:51] diesel gallon?
[1:06:54] uhm Chair, they should be very
[1:06:56] similar if the difference being
[1:06:59] the tax so it at $6 a gallon
[1:07:02] generally for for diesel you're
[1:07:03] gonna have die diesel more
[1:07:03] expensive than
[1:07:05] what you might see at the pump
[1:07:11] and so being that in 2024 this
[1:07:14] was caps we said capped
[1:07:16] capped to ag right and so this
[1:07:18] was the intent was that we're
[1:07:19] going to help the farmers and
[1:07:21] the and the ranchers of this
[1:07:23] state it's kept to ag at10
[1:07:24] million dollars.
[1:07:26] and now we're looking to expand
[1:07:28] it to potentially
[1:07:33] for for the general fund for
[1:07:34] year one as I'm reading this
[1:07:36] analysis between16 to26 million
[1:07:37] dollars per year
[1:07:39] that that's that's quite a
[1:07:42] big jump and it's because of its
[1:07:44] expansion to then not only just
[1:07:46] ag but then now construction and
[1:07:48] all offroad vehicles so then if
[1:07:50] that if that's the case then is
[1:07:52] there a residency requirement to
[1:07:53] participate in this
[1:07:56] No Mr Cha, there's no
[1:07:58] residential and so I guess where
[1:07:59] I'm going with this question is
[1:08:00] that
[1:08:02] in in in the south part of
[1:08:04] the state where Project Jupiter
[1:08:07] is is turning dirt like crazy
[1:08:09] are they gonna receive a large
[1:08:12] what we call it a benefit to
[1:08:13] to to that to that project
[1:08:13] that's going on right now
[1:08:19] m Chair construction activity
[1:08:21] mining activity and all
[1:08:23] commercial activity would also
[1:08:25] receive this as well we
[1:08:26] there's some conversation as
[1:08:28] well about maybe short line
[1:08:30] railroad could there's there's a
[1:08:31] a table in the analysis that
[1:08:32] shows sort of the other sectors
[1:08:34] that would benefit and you
[1:08:35] can you can look at that on page
[1:08:36] three.
[1:08:40] yep and and I saw that but I
[1:08:41] wanted for for the sake of
[1:08:42] conversation purposes to bring
[1:08:44] that up because I I think when
[1:08:46] when we when we did it initially
[1:08:48] the intention was I think right
[1:08:49] right obviously we want to help
[1:08:51] the folks in egg and that it was
[1:08:52] true then as it is today why we
[1:08:54] want to still continue to to
[1:08:56] help them out but as we
[1:08:57] expand it more I you know
[1:09:00] that's fine if if if the
[1:09:00] interest is there and and and
[1:09:02] and the willingness is there
[1:09:04] from this from this legislature
[1:09:05] but you know if that's the case
[1:09:07] and we're we're opening it up to
[1:09:08] to railroads and construction
[1:09:11] and and and to again the the
[1:09:12] project Jupiter folks down down
[1:09:14] south it's gonna be a a huge
[1:09:15] boom and and again take it or
[1:09:16] leave it I'm not trying to
[1:09:17] create any any friction there
[1:09:18] but I'm just saying that
[1:09:20] we're we're talking about some
[1:09:21] some different aspects now than
[1:09:22] what was once initially
[1:09:24] discussed at when we passed
[1:09:26] this as a credit rather than a
[1:09:27] deduction so those are
[1:09:30] those are my questions or or or
[1:09:32] comments to this appreciate it
[1:09:34] Ishmael and that being said
[1:09:36] we'll go back to the senator
[1:09:37] just one more followup could
[1:09:39] could you limit a deduction just
[1:09:39] to ag
[1:09:45] we could certainly put in the
[1:09:46] words and
[1:09:49] it's up to the taxpayer to
[1:09:53] all of them I don't know maybe
[1:09:54] that maybe the secretary should
[1:09:56] be probably be best to answer
[1:09:57] that question
[1:10:04] Thank you Mr Chair and senator.
[1:10:05] yes you could put in the words
[1:10:09] and yes we could audit after the
[1:10:11] fact to have a reasonable
[1:10:13] indication that someone was in
[1:10:15] the ag business and not the
[1:10:15] earth turning or
[1:10:16] off road
[1:10:17] vehicle
[1:10:21] for recreational purposes
[1:10:21] business
[1:10:28] loves it ok appreciate the
[1:10:29] conversation this morning
[1:10:29] Senatorchr thank you for
[1:10:30] stepping in for Senator Sanchez
[1:10:33] hopefully he'll he'll listen
[1:10:34] to this when he when he gets
[1:10:37] time to and to think about
[1:10:38] the the question and comments
[1:10:39] that we proposed this morning.
[1:10:40] thank you for the conversation
[1:10:41] sir.
[1:10:45] next and on behalf of senator
[1:10:47] Mimi Stewart we have sitting in
[1:10:48] her place senator vice
[1:10:50] chairwoman Hamblin who will
[1:10:52] be discussing increasing the
[1:10:55] amount of the new solar market
[1:10:58] development income tax credit
[1:11:00] joining her will be chief of
[1:11:01] staff for senator
[1:11:06] Stewart uhandorors and then we
[1:11:09] also have Jim this jardins
[1:11:10] executive director renewable
[1:11:12] energiesndustry association of
[1:11:14] New Mexico and so vice
[1:11:15] chairwoman whenever you're ready
[1:11:15] the floor is yours now.
[1:11:17] salud
[1:11:20] my goodness it is an allergy day
[1:11:23] here in Santa Fe coming up from
[1:11:24] southern New Mexico the juniper
[1:11:27] is just kicking my rear. thank
[1:11:28] you Mr chair and thank you
[1:11:30] committee and again thank you
[1:11:34] toenate protemstuart for
[1:11:36] asking me to go ahead and step
[1:11:38] in on this before I get
[1:11:40] into the actual bulk of the bill
[1:11:41] I wanna share with you kind of a
[1:11:42] personal story my wife and I
[1:11:44] were very fortunate enough to
[1:11:45] get a solar system put on our
[1:11:47] house about1f years ago and
[1:11:51] we have been able to really
[1:11:52] kind of make our house an energy
[1:11:53] efficient what they call an
[1:11:56] envelope because of in
[1:11:58] many cases the tax credits and
[1:11:59] the reason why we got the solar
[1:12:01] system on our house was because
[1:12:02] of the tax credits at the time
[1:12:06] we got a30% tax deduction
[1:12:07] because of that and the
[1:12:09] system itself was about an18,000
[1:12:10] dollars system and my wife and I
[1:12:12] are very fortunate enough to be
[1:12:14] able to do that but with the
[1:12:15] tax incentives it dropped down
[1:12:15] to12.
[1:12:19] and so that was a $6000 savings
[1:12:22] for us you know the tax
[1:12:23] credit was really what
[1:12:25] incentivized us to get that in
[1:12:27] addition to being able to reduce
[1:12:29] our energy use but you know I
[1:12:32] I think of the individuals that
[1:12:33] live in my community or in my
[1:12:34] neighborhood and those that
[1:12:36] don't have solar on their roofs
[1:12:37] on what they're spending causez
[1:12:38] I can tell you with our house
[1:12:41] with a refrigerated air unit our
[1:12:43] average bill is about45 dollars
[1:12:43] during peak summer.
[1:12:47] and so we're really lucky to
[1:12:50] have that savings and I'm really
[1:12:52] passionate about making sure
[1:12:53] that everybody who can afford
[1:12:54] that and making it affordable
[1:12:56] for everybody but also full
[1:12:58] transparency in my job I have
[1:13:00] several solar companies who
[1:13:02] are members and knowing these I
[1:13:04] run the Las Ccruces Greenchamber
[1:13:05] of Commerce and we talk about
[1:13:06] the importance of renewable
[1:13:08] energy in addition to supporting
[1:13:10] local businesses and the local
[1:13:11] solar companies that we have
[1:13:12] inpresentative Gallegos and I
[1:13:14] know several of those folks
[1:13:15] they're really good
[1:13:18] about informing people of the
[1:13:19] tax credits that are available
[1:13:20] because that's their job they
[1:13:22] are trying to sell a system but
[1:13:24] also make it as affordable as
[1:13:27] possible understanding the tax
[1:13:28] breaks that happen but this
[1:13:31] built today is in response to
[1:13:32] the federal credits being
[1:13:34] removed and that was one of
[1:13:36] the benefits for us back 15
[1:13:38] years ago was the the federal
[1:13:40] tax credit that existed and it's
[1:13:43] been since removed New Mexico
[1:13:44] has a10% solar
[1:13:47] tax credit for solar
[1:13:50] installations and the maximum
[1:13:52] is 6000 for residential and for
[1:13:54] small businesses and agriculture
[1:13:57] owners and the maximum is30
[1:13:58] million a year for the state 9
[1:14:00] million has been historically
[1:14:01] used and this the point of this
[1:14:03] bill is to increase the tax
[1:14:04] credit at the state level since
[1:14:05] we don't have it at the federal
[1:14:06] level
[1:14:09] at the federal level before
[1:14:11] that expired in 2025. it was
[1:14:13] a30% solar tax credit and the
[1:14:14] New Mexico solar industry lost
[1:14:16] an estimated 20% of jobs since
[1:14:19] the solar tax credit expired and
[1:14:20] in my community that's certainly
[1:14:21] evident as well.
[1:14:24] now we talk about us as the
[1:14:25] sunshine state and how we're
[1:14:27] very proud of the350 days of
[1:14:28] sunlight that we have a year.
[1:14:33] today almost included but
[1:14:34] what we're asking for and this
[1:14:36] has been a conversation that the
[1:14:38] prote has been really
[1:14:39] championing for the last couple
[1:14:42] of years is to bring back that
[1:14:43] other part that we lost in the
[1:14:46] federal portion of that but
[1:14:47] also make up for some of the
[1:14:48] money that has been lost since
[1:14:52] then and so this would be to
[1:14:53] increase the state tax credit to
[1:14:56] 25% include battery storage
[1:14:58] systems which full disclosure we
[1:14:59] are thinking of now
[1:15:02] just because of at the southern
[1:15:03] part of our border worried about
[1:15:04] electric rates going up.
[1:15:07] and also where we are in terms
[1:15:09] of our electricity usage. the
[1:15:11] max individual tax credit would
[1:15:14] be capped at15,000 and I'm sorry
[1:15:15] I want to correct this because
[1:15:16] Jim let me know that
[1:15:18] actually the solar industry
[1:15:21] lost40% of jobs not 2. that is a
[1:15:22] significant change so thank you
[1:15:23] for that correction
[1:15:26] the anticipated fiscal impact
[1:15:29] on high end would be17.1 million
[1:15:32] a year and this is based on3,430
[1:15:34] claims which is the actual claim
[1:15:36] increase of5,000 dollars due to
[1:15:38] the increased capacity in
[1:15:40] additional energy storage and
[1:15:43] then the it would also have
[1:15:44] no change to the sunset of the
[1:15:46] tax credit in 2032, so there is
[1:15:49] a there isn't a sunset day
[1:15:50] but really what it is the
[1:15:52] overall importance of this and
[1:15:53] and Sanders and and J
[1:15:56] im can correct me or or fill
[1:15:58] in where I'm missing but this is
[1:16:00] really to for for two things to
[1:16:02] incentivize people to be able to
[1:16:04] everydayme everyday New Mexicans
[1:16:06] to be able to consider buying a
[1:16:07] solar system to reduce their
[1:16:08] energy use, especially when
[1:16:09] we've been talking about the
[1:16:10] cost of gas right now we're
[1:16:12] talking about the guest of the
[1:16:14] cost of food and we don't want
[1:16:15] people having to decide whether
[1:16:16] or not to cool their homes or
[1:16:17] put food on their table when
[1:16:18] they can't pay their utility
[1:16:20] bills but also it's to help
[1:16:22] an industry that we should be
[1:16:23] supporting that
[1:16:24] we should be talking about when
[1:16:27] we talk about you know the
[1:16:29] impact that oil and gas has had
[1:16:30] on our state budget and also
[1:16:32] trying to diversify that and
[1:16:34] bring in renewable energy for
[1:16:36] crying out loud we have350 days
[1:16:38] of sunshine a year. why are we
[1:16:40] not supporting this and also
[1:16:41] being champions and that as
[1:16:42] equally as we are for the other
[1:16:44] resources that we have and this
[1:16:46] is really a great opportunity to
[1:16:49] do that and so I do hope that
[1:16:50] we are able to push this
[1:16:52] through I'll be a cosponsor with
[1:16:53] Senator Stewart
[1:16:55] on this bill but appreciate
[1:16:56] any feedback from the committee
[1:16:58] at this point on this bill and
[1:17:01] also give Sanders and Jim an
[1:17:02] opportunity to say a few words
[1:17:03] before we turn to the committee
[1:17:08] sanders good morning good
[1:17:09] morning Mrir members of the
[1:17:10] committee I'msners moreore I'm
[1:17:12] chief of staff to Proim Stewart
[1:17:14] and she has been working on this
[1:17:16] legislation for a while we've
[1:17:19] seen it come and go and I I just
[1:17:20] actually wanted to add to
[1:17:22] Senator Hamblin's personal
[1:17:23] story, I also put solar panels
[1:17:25] on my house when we purchased it
[1:17:27] the state tax credit did not
[1:17:29] exist but the federal tax credit
[1:17:31] did, I was working for a
[1:17:33] nonprofit making piddily little
[1:17:33] salary, I will say
[1:17:36] that my husband was a grad
[1:17:38] student at UNM also making a
[1:17:40] piddly celery when we put the
[1:17:41] solar panels in our house but it
[1:17:43] took our400 dollars summer
[1:17:46] bill which was a shock coming
[1:17:48] from a tiny apartment to a
[1:17:50] slightly larger house and we
[1:17:52] didn't have to pay anything
[1:17:54] at the time in our except for to
[1:17:56] connect to the grid it's $8 at
[1:17:57] the time to connect to p andM's
[1:17:59] grid and now with the increasing
[1:17:59] cost I will say that
[1:18:02] the system was sized when there
[1:18:03] were only two of us, we now have
[1:18:04] two children so it's not quite
[1:18:06] the right size for us anymore,
[1:18:08] but it is still kept our
[1:18:10] solar our our electric bills
[1:18:12] steady this summer and
[1:18:14] manageable when I have been seen
[1:18:16] on so many websites and social
[1:18:18] media that the spike in prices
[1:18:20] and so I'm really grateful that
[1:18:22] we were able to do that it
[1:18:24] made a huge difference in our
[1:18:26] we were we were not making as
[1:18:28] much as we are now to have that
[1:18:29] stability in our in our electric
[1:18:30] bills
[1:18:32] so I just wanted to add that
[1:18:34] from a personal perspective
[1:18:35] it has made a huge a huge
[1:18:38] difference and the addition
[1:18:40] here in Jim can add some is that
[1:18:43] my understanding is that Imner
[1:18:44] has actually been asking for the
[1:18:46] addition of the storage systems
[1:18:48] more more homeowners are adding
[1:18:50] the storage and it's actually
[1:18:51] been I think an administrative
[1:18:57] challenge to sort out the solar
[1:18:59] the batteries from the solar
[1:19:02] system to just provide the tax
[1:19:04] credit on the solar piece of
[1:19:05] those installations not
[1:19:06] everybody is adding the battery
[1:19:08] system with this s the solar
[1:19:10] panels but there has been
[1:19:13] more of an up an uptake in that
[1:19:14] as well and that is why this has
[1:19:16] been added to the proposal for
[1:19:18] this year and I'm here to answer
[1:19:19] any questions.
[1:19:19] thank you Mr Chairders
[1:19:22] pretty much
[1:19:26] chairmanentnte members of the
[1:19:28] committee Jim Dehordin I'm the
[1:19:29] executive director of the
[1:19:29] renewable energyndustry
[1:19:32] association of New Mexico
[1:19:34] just a couple of few points here
[1:19:36] the solar industry in
[1:19:38] Newexxico employs 2100 people
[1:19:40] but it's still in its infancy
[1:19:41] and there's a lot of room for
[1:19:43] growth and so what we want to do
[1:19:46] is to keep that growth going
[1:19:49] as was mentioned in 20
[1:19:52] twenty5 the one big beautiful
[1:19:53] bill eliminated the thir0
[1:19:54] % federal tax credit for
[1:19:56] residential solar systems
[1:19:58] effective at the end of the year
[1:19:59] so I put the industry in a
[1:20:02] really bad spot. and there
[1:20:03] has been a lot of layoffs some
[1:20:05] of our members have been very
[1:20:06] resourceful they're small
[1:20:08] business people and they've kind
[1:20:10] of branched out into other areas
[1:20:12] so give them credit for that
[1:20:14] also want to say that one of the
[1:20:16] advantages of residential solar
[1:20:18] and that's what this bill is
[1:20:21] geared towards is that it is
[1:20:22] basically on built environments
[1:20:23] so
[1:20:25] they're not big solar fields
[1:20:27] that some people object to they
[1:20:28] also because they're at the
[1:20:30] point of usage they're more
[1:20:32] efficient and also very
[1:20:34] importantly is that residential
[1:20:36] solar companies employed local
[1:20:38] people and it's a steady ongoing
[1:20:40] business it's not just a big
[1:20:41] project to hire a bunch of
[1:20:43] people project is done and then
[1:20:46] it's over to get into the
[1:20:50] actual impact one of the
[1:20:52] numbers that we used last year
[1:20:53] Mner processed
[1:20:56] 2595 solar tax applications
[1:21:00] this year to date to date was
[1:21:04] the end of august460. so you can
[1:21:06] see the real impact that is
[1:21:07] going on in our industry
[1:21:11] also want to say if you do look
[1:21:14] at the fiscal impact we did use
[1:21:15] some of the numbers from the tax
[1:21:18] and revenue department but
[1:21:21] there are some different ways
[1:21:22] you could look at that and if
[1:21:24] there's any questions on that
[1:21:26] I'm happy to to go into that
[1:21:28] that was really what I the
[1:21:29] points I wanted to make and
[1:21:29] thank you very much for the
[1:21:30] opportunity.
[1:21:33] thank you Jim thank you senator
[1:21:34] anything else toad if not we'll
[1:21:36] come to the committee Chair and
[1:21:39] committee you know also as I
[1:21:40] stated when we've had our solar
[1:21:42] system for about1f years and one
[1:21:44] of the things that we were
[1:21:45] considering was whether or not
[1:21:46] it was worth it to buy a battery
[1:21:47] and about5 years ago it wasn't
[1:21:49] worth it to buy a battery now
[1:21:50] it's worth it to buy a battery
[1:21:53] and so you know when we talk
[1:21:55] about bringing in the storage
[1:21:57] opportunities for our solar I
[1:21:59] can certainly see that those of
[1:22:00] us who were kind of early
[1:22:01] adopters to so
[1:22:03] lar systems on our house are
[1:22:04] going to be looking at those
[1:22:05] batteries as well.
[1:22:08] I look forward to the
[1:22:08] conversation, Mister Chair. Very
[1:22:09] good.ppreciate the conversation
[1:22:10] we started
[1:22:12] coming back to the committee
[1:22:13] let's go then to Representative
[1:22:14] Duncan.
[1:22:16] thank you Mr Chair
[1:22:17] in
[1:22:20] senator in this the bill we
[1:22:22] passed a couple of years ago did
[1:22:23] that have anything to do with
[1:22:25] keeping it to low income
[1:22:25] families
[1:22:26] or
[1:22:31] what's the limit that a person
[1:22:31] could get this
[1:22:36] thank you very much Chairman
[1:22:39] Lentte umpresentative Duncan so
[1:22:41] when the bill was and there's
[1:22:42] been a number of different
[1:22:43] itineations of this bill in
[1:22:44] terms of extending it and I
[1:22:46] think it was the most recent one
[1:22:49] that made the tax credit
[1:22:50] refundable for people who did
[1:22:52] not have sufficient tax
[1:22:54] liability to claim an actual tax
[1:22:55] credit.
[1:22:58] thanks for that Mr Cha but
[1:23:01] could I mean if I let's just
[1:23:02] say I' in half a million
[1:23:03] dollars, could I go ahead and
[1:23:04] get this
[1:23:05] credit
[1:23:07] ok that's what I want to know.
[1:23:09] thanks for that and and senator
[1:23:10] how long you said you've had
[1:23:12] yours1f years. how much longer
[1:23:14] do you think you'll have yours?
[1:23:15] I believe that we will have it
[1:23:16] for at least another15 years.
[1:23:18] Our system our inverter is
[1:23:21] still in top shape which
[1:23:22] we haven't had to change out yet
[1:23:24] and the panels that we did we
[1:23:25] did a lot of research and and
[1:23:28] found that we got we invested
[1:23:30] the money in the panels that
[1:23:31] still in their last 15 years
[1:23:32] even with hail storms haven't
[1:23:34] been damaged so you know I
[1:23:35] always encourage people when
[1:23:36] they're spending that much money
[1:23:38] on something to do a lot of
[1:23:40] research because I don't
[1:23:41] endorse a particular company but
[1:23:43] I always endorse doing your your
[1:23:44] your research on it and so my
[1:23:46] wife and I did and we've been
[1:23:47] very very fortunate with our
[1:23:48] system.
[1:23:50] and when I pay that electric
[1:23:51] bill of45 dollars in the middle
[1:23:52] of July. I'm very happy about
[1:23:56] doing that'll bet you are thank
[1:23:57] you one last question and we
[1:23:59] resolved how if I put that on
[1:24:04] there on my house and then
[1:24:06] my wife decides next week that
[1:24:08] we want to sell and and I still
[1:24:10] owe and I'm paying making
[1:24:11] payments on that have we
[1:24:13] resolved that yet then for those
[1:24:16] who who didn't have the money to
[1:24:17] write a check for this
[1:24:20] yeah thank you very much
[1:24:22] Chairman Lentte umpresentative
[1:24:24] Duncan so there's different ways
[1:24:26] that you can put solar on your
[1:24:28] home some people are
[1:24:28] fortunate to be in a position
[1:24:31] they just write a check. also
[1:24:32] other people will take out a
[1:24:33] loan and there's just different
[1:24:35] kinds of loans there are a
[1:24:38] loan from Nunda which requires
[1:24:40] no lien on your property. Other
[1:24:41] people might take out a second
[1:24:42] mortgage which would have alien
[1:24:44] on your property. Then there's
[1:24:46] also third party ownership so
[1:24:47] in other words another company
[1:24:50] actually owns a solar system and
[1:24:52] then you are either leasing or
[1:24:54] doing a what we call a power
[1:24:56] purchase agreement. So in those
[1:24:58] instances where there's either a
[1:25:00] leen or there is I forget what
[1:25:02] they call it but there is
[1:25:03] something similar to a leen a
[1:25:04] third party ownership company
[1:25:06] puts on there that does need to
[1:25:08] be resolved at the time that a
[1:25:09] home is sale is sold.
[1:25:11] thanks for that Mr Chair and
[1:25:12] that's that's our concern I
[1:25:14] think we heard that a couple of
[1:25:16] years ago you know as people
[1:25:18] got older and they needed to
[1:25:19] sell their home and and downsize
[1:25:21] they had to pay that off and so
[1:25:22] they didn't get near as much for
[1:25:23] their home and so that's what I
[1:25:24] was wondering about if there was
[1:25:26] a way that that that go could go
[1:25:29] to the new owner or does that
[1:25:30] individual have to pay it and
[1:25:31] then all of a sudden they're
[1:25:34] they're net value just
[1:25:36] decreased by half of that what
[1:25:37] they're going to get in return
[1:25:38] so that that's my concern
[1:25:42] Mr chair as we look at this how
[1:25:43] are we going to resolve that for
[1:25:45] those folks who have a system
[1:25:47] that's not paid for and and
[1:25:48] they're left on the hook even
[1:25:50] though they're no longer on the
[1:25:52] home or will own the home and
[1:25:53] mis chairir andres
[1:25:53] representative, I think that's a
[1:25:54] very good point because it also
[1:25:55] highlights predatory loan
[1:25:56] companies or predatory solar
[1:25:58] companies that have especially
[1:26:00] walked my streets come up to
[1:26:01] my door when you can very
[1:26:02] visibly see my solar panels on
[1:26:04] my roof. Um, they are there and
[1:26:06] they are not local. they are
[1:26:08] from out of state trying to
[1:26:09] capitalize on the solar
[1:26:11] opportunities that we have in
[1:26:14] this state and so I have the
[1:26:15] luxury in my job to really
[1:26:16] inform people about like do your
[1:26:20] homework always ask and with
[1:26:21] those predatory solar companies
[1:26:23] there are loopholes that
[1:26:24] people aren't understanding. I
[1:26:26] had a call one night from a
[1:26:28] friend who lives in Vegas who
[1:26:29] asked me about who did I go
[1:26:30] through to get my solar and I
[1:26:32] said who are you talking to
[1:26:34] right now and she told me it was
[1:26:36] a a popular out of state
[1:26:37] solar company that was really
[1:26:38] predatory and I said do not sign
[1:26:39] that
[1:26:41] contract because there are those
[1:26:42] loopholes and so what I always
[1:26:44] encourage people to do is to
[1:26:46] first and foremost go local
[1:26:48] because we know that those folks
[1:26:49] are going to be here in our
[1:26:50] communities and that they're
[1:26:51] already giving back to our
[1:26:53] communities Las cruces is no
[1:26:54] no no different from other
[1:26:57] parts but to to do the
[1:26:58] research and I think that's
[1:26:59] really important and that's upon
[1:27:00] us and that's upon you know
[1:27:02] jim's agency to really help
[1:27:04] people understand the nuances
[1:27:06] and then also to if you're going
[1:27:08] to spend that much money and
[1:27:09] it's going to be something
[1:27:09] that's going to pay off
[1:27:12] in dividends down the line to
[1:27:13] really do research and and
[1:27:14] understand that so I I
[1:27:16] appreciate your story as well
[1:27:17] because it is a concern.
[1:27:20] thank you representative let's
[1:27:22] go to senatorwirth thank you Mr
[1:27:24] Chair and I I just want a flag
[1:27:26] on page four of the bill the
[1:27:28] existing language that is struck
[1:27:31] on line se7 which is the30
[1:27:34] million dollar cap which we made
[1:27:38] as a policy decision when we
[1:27:40] pass this bill and I just want
[1:27:42] to highlight again I appreciate
[1:27:43] we had an interesting discussion
[1:27:44] during the session about this
[1:27:46] bill we actually ran this bill
[1:27:48] as a standalone out of the tax
[1:27:49] committee
[1:27:50] it also ran to the standalone
[1:27:52] out of the finance committee it
[1:27:53] passed the senate
[1:27:56] what's interesting though is
[1:27:58] that it's not scored at30
[1:27:59] million because it's only being5
[1:28:00] million is being used and I know
[1:28:04] yeah 9 million's being used
[1:28:05] so we're in this weird situation
[1:28:07] where we made the policy
[1:28:08] decision to cap this to30
[1:28:11] million but now when we tweak
[1:28:13] the mix that increases the use
[1:28:14] all of a sudden it gets a fiscal
[1:28:16] hit and that kind of have a hard
[1:28:17] time with that cuz we already
[1:28:18] made the decision that we wanted
[1:28:20] this to be a30 million dollars
[1:28:22] cap and right now if we took the
[1:28:23] existing law
[1:28:24] and cranked it up to30 million
[1:28:27] bucks we could do that under the
[1:28:29] existing law. so I think I
[1:28:30] just wanted to flag that
[1:28:34] I would hate to lose this in a
[1:28:36] tax package because it feels
[1:28:37] like we already did this
[1:28:40] we made the decision to move it
[1:28:41] to30 and I appreciate
[1:28:44] the share of tax the chair of
[1:28:46] Senate finance for recognizing
[1:28:48] that and moving that forward
[1:28:50] so one question I do have though
[1:28:53] if the30 million dollars cap is
[1:28:56] reached in a year up up in
[1:29:00] paragraph F page4 line3 it says
[1:29:06] once the cap is met reddits
[1:29:07] shall not be approved. Is there
[1:29:07] any
[1:29:09] provision I know with other
[1:29:12] like sustainable building we've
[1:29:14] got carriover. would there be a
[1:29:16] situation where somebody in
[1:29:17] November
[1:29:19] does their system we've already
[1:29:20] reached the th30 million. could
[1:29:22] that carry over to the next
[1:29:23] year's30 million dollars.
[1:29:27] thank you Senatorwirth thank you
[1:29:29] Mr Chair. there's not a
[1:29:30] queuing system, so if the30
[1:29:32] million dollars is met in a
[1:29:34] calendar year then then there
[1:29:36] would not be those people would
[1:29:37] be out of luck, but that is one
[1:29:38] of the reasons why the
[1:29:40] legislature decided to put the
[1:29:42] cap at30 million a couple of
[1:29:44] years ago so that the cap was
[1:29:46] high enough that it would not be
[1:29:48] reached that was a problem many
[1:29:50] years ago, but that is why
[1:29:52] this body chose to raise that
[1:29:53] from I think it was
[1:29:55] 10 million before that, but I
[1:29:56] might have my memory incorrect
[1:29:58] there just to make sure what
[1:29:59] would it take I mean it just it
[1:30:02] doesn't feel fair that someone
[1:30:03] who shows up in November is out
[1:30:04] of luck.
[1:30:06] you know and that's the problem
[1:30:07] is we're creating that I mean
[1:30:08] what did we do what does it take
[1:30:10] to have it be a carryover I mean
[1:30:12] I know we carryover and
[1:30:14] sustainable building tax credit
[1:30:15] is our additional language
[1:30:15] that's needed to make it carry
[1:30:16] over?
[1:30:24] chairman Lentte Senatorwirth
[1:30:25] actually in a previous
[1:30:28] itinration it did carry over and
[1:30:30] I believe there was some
[1:30:31] concerns about the way that
[1:30:32] worked
[1:30:36] and I believe the concerns came
[1:30:37] from tax and revenue but I don't
[1:30:38] wanna
[1:30:41] chair and senator we do also
[1:30:42] have Pam here to answer Pam
[1:30:44] Sttoes so with the legislative
[1:30:46] council service uhm chairir
[1:30:47] senator yeah you would need to
[1:30:49] add language to say that they're
[1:30:50] that any excess can be
[1:30:52] carried forward that that
[1:30:57] that would apply to an
[1:30:58] individual taxpayer though
[1:30:59] that's that's a if you want to
[1:31:00] do a cue that's something else
[1:31:03] and I believe as cider
[1:31:04] Sanders said they tried to
[1:31:06] design it with this30 million
[1:31:08] dollars cup to ensure there
[1:31:10] wouldn't be a need for a cue,
[1:31:12] but I don't know what
[1:31:16] the the takeup is of this credit
[1:31:17] and if there's room, it sounds
[1:31:18] like there's room it has been
[1:31:20] room and that they intentionally
[1:31:22] made rooms so they didn't run
[1:31:23] into the situation they had
[1:31:24] before they had to kind of
[1:31:27] backtrack and get people caught
[1:31:27] up who did get cut off.
[1:31:30] just remember there being a huge
[1:31:32] problem with the prior credit
[1:31:33] where a whole bunch of people
[1:31:36] were hanging in limbo and I
[1:31:37] would just suggest you consider
[1:31:38] putting the language in as a
[1:31:41] default because again you
[1:31:43] want this to be up to the cue
[1:31:44] that's the whole point of this
[1:31:46] is to encourage its use and it's
[1:31:48] just I don't want to see the
[1:31:50] situation again where the person
[1:31:51] who shows up in November is out
[1:31:52] of luck just because of
[1:31:55] the cue being there. yeah they
[1:31:57] gotta wait till next year and
[1:31:58] jump in front and then we should
[1:31:59] come back and decide whether we
[1:32:00] want to increase this if there's
[1:32:02] that demand that's all I have Mr
[1:32:03] chair thanks. Mr Secretary,
[1:32:04] could you chair in a little
[1:32:06] bitir I feel like have like a
[1:32:10] basketball team of of of
[1:32:11] supporters
[1:32:12] umm chairman and senatorwirth, I
[1:32:14] can think of two examples that
[1:32:16] you could use for drafting and
[1:32:18] there's like for example there's
[1:32:19] a couple credits like the
[1:32:20] sustainable where it just sort
[1:32:22] of says anyone denied
[1:32:23] certification because the
[1:32:25] cap has been reached is at the
[1:32:26] front of the line for next year
[1:32:28] there's also a slightly more
[1:32:30] complicated but sort of still
[1:32:32] interesting version in the film
[1:32:34] credit in the most recent where
[1:32:35] the film officeice can keep
[1:32:37] certifying project budgets once
[1:32:40] they meet the annual cap but
[1:32:41] only up to a certain point they
[1:32:42] have something I think it's100
[1:32:44] million dollars of wiggle room
[1:32:46] to cushion to keep certifying
[1:32:48] project budgets but once they go
[1:32:50] that far over then they truly
[1:32:51] stop so there's two different
[1:32:51] examples you could use.
[1:32:56] very good thank you. Other
[1:32:57] questions and comments from this
[1:32:58] committee?
[1:33:00] not to have a few of my own and
[1:33:02] so and this I think maybe the
[1:33:03] first one is gonna be for gimm
[1:33:04] do do we have a map
[1:33:08] a a statewide map of where these
[1:33:09] types of solar units for a home
[1:33:10] are installed
[1:33:16] thank you for the question
[1:33:17] Chairman Lenten. yes there is
[1:33:19] one at at Amnard you can go on
[1:33:20] their website and they'll show
[1:33:22] you where the applications have
[1:33:26] been submitted from I believe
[1:33:28] with the exception of Hilddago
[1:33:29] and hopefully if pronounced that
[1:33:30] correctly county every county
[1:33:32] has submitted at least one
[1:33:33] application.
[1:33:36] and of course as you might
[1:33:38] expect Santa Fe and Albuquerque
[1:33:40] areas have more application OK
[1:33:42] and I guess in terms of an
[1:33:44] application an application to
[1:33:46] have a unit installed or an
[1:33:47] appli what what do you what do
[1:33:47] you mean by application?
[1:33:50] chairman Lientting and thank
[1:33:51] you for that sorry for that I
[1:33:52] didn't clarify that the
[1:33:54] application would be the
[1:33:56] application for the tax credit.
[1:33:58] so one of the main ways that we
[1:34:00] actually track installations
[1:34:02] and related activities are
[1:34:04] through the amnerd website which
[1:34:06] is very good OK and and the
[1:34:07] reason I asked this question and
[1:34:08] and again this is just me being
[1:34:10] ignorant and for forgive my my
[1:34:12] misconceptions but oftentimes
[1:34:13] when I look through my my
[1:34:15] district for instance and I
[1:34:15] drive through
[1:34:19] I I don't see any units on any
[1:34:20] pueblo homes. I don't see any
[1:34:22] units on any reservation in
[1:34:24] thenavo Nation homes I don't see
[1:34:25] any units on any of the homes in
[1:34:26] the town of Bernolio I don't see
[1:34:28] any home units on any of the
[1:34:30] rural community homes that that
[1:34:32] I that I see I just don't see
[1:34:34] them and so again forgive this
[1:34:36] misconception but are are are
[1:34:38] these credits being used for
[1:34:39] those that have the means then
[1:34:40] to afford this type of
[1:34:42] I'll I'll call it a luxury for
[1:34:43] lack of a
[1:34:49] thank you Chairman Lnte. So I
[1:34:50] can offer you a couple of
[1:34:52] explanations for that. first of
[1:34:54] all, I believe there is a lower
[1:34:57] adoption rate of of solar in
[1:34:59] rural communities and a native
[1:35:00] American communities but I
[1:35:03] will also say that probably my
[1:35:06] estimate is 60% or more of the
[1:35:08] homes in New Mexico have flat
[1:35:10] roofs and most solar ins
[1:35:11] installation companies use a
[1:35:13] ballot system that I believe at
[1:35:14] its highest point is only16
[1:35:15] inches above the roof.
[1:35:18] so what I'm suggesting is
[1:35:19] sometimes you just simply don't
[1:35:21] see it because it's not visible
[1:35:26] oh and I I'm sorry one more
[1:35:28] point to that is I believe in
[1:35:31] the last itterration of the
[1:35:34] legislation it did at clarity to
[1:35:36] how native American communities
[1:35:38] could take advantage of the tax
[1:35:39] credit so hopefully that has
[1:35:39] helped as well.
[1:35:42] I appreciate that Jim and then
[1:35:44] so I'm I'm just gonna ask
[1:35:46] another question then so for a
[1:35:47] home and I don't know the
[1:35:48] average size of a home in New
[1:35:49] Mexico let's just say1,500
[1:35:51] square feet house what would a
[1:35:53] unit cost not with the battery
[1:35:55] pack or what it just just the
[1:35:56] unit to get them up and up and
[1:35:57] running what what does that cost
[1:36:02] Mr Chair you know I can and
[1:36:04] and Jim can add just in in
[1:36:06] our case fif years ago it was
[1:36:08] an18,000 dollars purchase and
[1:36:12] I wanna to address your point
[1:36:13] and I'll get to that question is
[1:36:14] that I think as a state we do a
[1:36:16] horrible job at informing people
[1:36:17] about all the different things
[1:36:17] that we can offer at the state.
[1:36:20] you know from economic
[1:36:22] development to film to solar
[1:36:23] credits to different tax
[1:36:24] credits. I don't think we do a
[1:36:25] good enough job and I think that
[1:36:26] that's something that we have to
[1:36:28] do better in order to make
[1:36:29] sure that every New Mexican has
[1:36:31] an opportunity and access to
[1:36:33] this should they be able to
[1:36:34] 15 years ago our solar system
[1:36:36] was18,000 dollars. I know that
[1:36:38] with the you know when when
[1:36:40] there's an increase in it
[1:36:42] prices can go down but it
[1:36:44] also is you know, do you want a
[1:36:46] solar system that has 6 panels
[1:36:47] on it or do you want a solar
[1:36:47] system that has16 panels on it
[1:36:50] and that obviously changes the
[1:36:52] cost. but you know it's
[1:36:53] been so long so I don't know
[1:36:56] what an average system costs
[1:36:57] at this point Jim if you don't
[1:36:58] mind clarifying that. Sure thank
[1:37:00] you Senatorhamblin and
[1:37:03] Chairman Linte the the way
[1:37:04] that they measure the cost of
[1:37:06] solar is the price per watt so
[1:37:08] you got you know ri per pound
[1:37:10] price per gallon whatever so
[1:37:12] the price per watt has gone down
[1:37:14] since the time that Senator
[1:37:16] Hamlin purchased her system
[1:37:17] the average cost it it
[1:37:20] and I hate to answer it this way
[1:37:22] but it depends it varies depends
[1:37:24] on your electrical usage you
[1:37:25] have electric vehicle do you
[1:37:28] have refrigerated air but to use
[1:37:30] a number from Mner the
[1:37:35] average tax credit in 2025
[1:37:38] was $2,533 so that would in
[1:37:41] other words be a $25,000 system
[1:37:42] and I think that's a a fair
[1:37:43] estimate
[1:37:46] before any tax credits got it
[1:37:48] and thank you for for for
[1:37:49] engaging in in this conversation
[1:37:50] and so I I'm looking then at at
[1:37:54] page four of our analysis and it
[1:37:55] says that
[1:37:58] an average income of a house who
[1:38:01] installs a unit is about115,000
[1:38:02] dollars that that household
[1:38:03] makes right
[1:38:06] and and it's and it looks like
[1:38:08] the average household income
[1:38:10] currently of a new Mexican
[1:38:12] family is $65,000 per year and
[1:38:15] so I I I'm not trying tom not
[1:38:16] trying to engage in anything
[1:38:17] negative at this point I'm just
[1:38:18] trying to make clear that when
[1:38:19] we're when we're talking about
[1:38:20] these types of of initiatives
[1:38:22] and incentives right? I I wanna
[1:38:24] to make sure that we're looking
[1:38:25] out for everybody that everyone
[1:38:26] can enjoy them and so that leads
[1:38:28] me then to my next question and
[1:38:30] would be then probably to one
[1:38:32] that represented Duncan had was
[1:38:33] do we have a salary re
[1:38:36] g ul ator to focus on lower or
[1:38:38] middle income families that may
[1:38:41] be at that $65,000 or less
[1:38:43] household income to help them
[1:38:43] out before we help out
[1:38:47] the families that are making the
[1:38:48] household income of115,000
[1:38:49] dollars
[1:38:56] Mr Chair, I'm gonna go ahead and
[1:38:57] let Sanders answer that if
[1:38:59] that's all right Mr chair there
[1:39:00] is nothing currently in the
[1:39:03] legislation that targets
[1:39:06] different income levels the
[1:39:07] addition as Jim had mentioned
[1:39:09] earlier of the refundability
[1:39:13] was an effort for the the solar
[1:39:14] companies to be able to provide
[1:39:18] that the tax credit upfront for
[1:39:22] those purchasers and I agree
[1:39:23] with Senator Hamlin I think that
[1:39:23] this is
[1:39:26] something that we don't probably
[1:39:27] do well enough job of explaining
[1:39:28] the benefits, I mean, I
[1:39:29] mentioned I was mentioning my
[1:39:31] piddly salary is nonprofit
[1:39:33] before because it was I knew the
[1:39:34] benefits because I had actually
[1:39:36] worked on the tax credit and
[1:39:38] so I knew the benefits to my
[1:39:39] family or to myself and my
[1:39:40] husband at the time to install
[1:39:42] solar, but we were making
[1:39:44] definitely less than far less
[1:39:48] than115,000 as together and
[1:39:49] so but I knew that I knew the
[1:39:50] benefits of doing that and I
[1:39:51] knew those would be long term
[1:39:52] benefits but I think that's
[1:39:53] something if we educate people
[1:39:56] as to how that and there's no
[1:39:57] way we could have done it
[1:39:58] without the federal tax credit
[1:39:59] as I mentioned the state tax
[1:40:00] credit did not exist when we
[1:40:02] installed solar but that30% back
[1:40:03] I will tell you getting that
[1:40:04] check back from the federal
[1:40:05] government and put it straight
[1:40:06] onto the loan that we had taken
[1:40:08] out and it just knocked it down
[1:40:10] so much so all of this helps
[1:40:12] people be able to afford and
[1:40:15] then buffer from spike
[1:40:16] increases and inflation and
[1:40:18] everything that we're seeing
[1:40:19] today with affordability and Mr
[1:40:21] Chair if I can add on to though
[1:40:21] you know we've we've had other
[1:40:22] legislation and Jim you can help
[1:40:23] out with this is in terms of
[1:40:26] our community solar to help make
[1:40:27] that more accessible to
[1:40:28] people who can't purchase a
[1:40:31] whole system and so I I do
[1:40:33] think this conversation really
[1:40:35] is helping us kind of look at
[1:40:36] all the different options
[1:40:38] because I shared the same values
[1:40:39] as like I want everybody to be
[1:40:40] able to have access to this so
[1:40:41] that they can lower their
[1:40:43] utility bills. I also feel
[1:40:44] that we need to do a better job
[1:40:46] of educating people and helping
[1:40:47] do outreach to let people know
[1:40:49] what opportunities are there
[1:40:50] and not just with purchasing
[1:40:51] their own solar system but if
[1:40:52] they can tap into community
[1:40:53] solar or other
[1:40:55] projects that are happening in
[1:40:57] the area so I think it's really
[1:40:58] important that as we move
[1:40:59] forward with this bill is to
[1:41:00] look at all the different
[1:41:02] opportunities that people have
[1:41:03] to access and where are the
[1:41:04] deficiencies in that?
[1:41:07] and really try to address those
[1:41:08] I think the intent of this bill
[1:41:11] is to help increase the use of
[1:41:12] solar energy but how we get it
[1:41:14] to where it is equitable to
[1:41:16] every single person across the
[1:41:18] state I think is really the the
[1:41:20] the value that we're trying to
[1:41:21] instill in this. Yeah.
[1:41:23] and I appreciate that because
[1:41:25] quite honestly is that I I I I'm
[1:41:26] less likely to want to support a
[1:41:28] continuation of a credit to
[1:41:30] people that are making the
[1:41:32] on the upper end of the wage
[1:41:34] scale versus those that we can
[1:41:35] probably really help out that
[1:41:36] need the help at the end of the
[1:41:37] day to help offset their their
[1:41:39] electric bills or whatever their
[1:41:42] energy their costs couple of
[1:41:44] last questions and sunset of
[1:41:49] 2032 but this is a reaction
[1:41:50] to the cuts of the federal
[1:41:53] credits correct? So what would
[1:41:56] that be302032 or if the federal
[1:41:58] credits come back and then would
[1:41:59] we wanna to just escape this
[1:41:59] altogether
[1:42:03] thank you for that uhs I'm
[1:42:05] sorry chairman Linte we've
[1:42:07] been in this proposed
[1:42:08] legislation does not change the
[1:42:12] existing sunset which is 2032 so
[1:42:13] yeah that that is not
[1:42:18] contemplated to change one up or
[1:42:19] down got and final question is
[1:42:24] is this program restricted to
[1:42:26] homes with solar panels and I
[1:42:28] bring this up only because I
[1:42:30] know for those involved in
[1:42:32] agriculture solar is now the new
[1:42:34] way that many ranches are
[1:42:36] getting water for their cattle
[1:42:37] instead of windmills so could
[1:42:38] this program be utilized for
[1:42:41] those ranchers in rural Mexico
[1:42:41] to supply water for the cattle.
[1:42:44] Sure thank you Chairman Linte
[1:42:46] for the question. So basically
[1:42:50] the the legislation and we're
[1:42:51] not changing that aspect either
[1:42:53] but the way it is currently
[1:42:54] anyone who owns the land
[1:42:56] can take advantage of it
[1:42:59] or for Native American
[1:43:02] communities it's approach a
[1:43:03] little differently but so so
[1:43:04] therefore yes a small business
[1:43:08] can take advantage of it a
[1:43:10] rancher farm homeowner but
[1:43:11] you have to own the land where
[1:43:12] you're putting the solar on
[1:43:16] I'll I'll just add Mr Chairman
[1:43:17] that it would not be for
[1:43:18] commercial size solar
[1:43:22] installations so if a utility or
[1:43:23] another entity wanted to
[1:43:26] but a commercial size facility
[1:43:28] on a farm or a ranch and work
[1:43:29] with that landowner
[1:43:31] that would be a totally
[1:43:32] different type of system this is
[1:43:34] for the smaller scale
[1:43:36] residential or some of those
[1:43:38] benefits to the farmers but and
[1:43:40] ranchers but not at a commercial
[1:43:41] scale where they would be
[1:43:43] selling to the utilities the
[1:43:44] electricity or the the the the
[1:43:45] utility would own that
[1:43:48] that solar facility like a solar
[1:43:50] field like a solar field exactly
[1:43:51] got it but and and so but
[1:43:52] nonetheless you did make mention
[1:43:54] that it was a commercial it it's
[1:43:56] it's offered to commercial but
[1:43:57] just not at a scale so that if a
[1:43:59] commercial warehouse for
[1:44:00] instance in Santa Fe wanted to
[1:44:01] partake in this program they
[1:44:02] could
[1:44:06] so there is a cap or the
[1:44:09] state tax credit I believe we
[1:44:10] would be we're proposing
[1:44:13] changing that from $6000 to I
[1:44:16] believe it's15,000 dollars the
[1:44:18] credit is going up so that cap
[1:44:21] alone basically precludes any
[1:44:24] large commercial entity for
[1:44:25] applying for it yes they could
[1:44:26] up to that amount.
[1:44:29] but it would it would that's
[1:44:29] what limits them
[1:44:31] very good.
[1:44:33] any other questions or comments
[1:44:33] from the committee?
[1:44:36] if not folks thank you
[1:44:37] Senatorhamlin for stepping in
[1:44:38] sanders and Jim thank you for
[1:44:41] joining us this morning folks
[1:44:42] you know hate to bring it to you
[1:44:44] but we're we're we've managed
[1:44:46] through everything super fast
[1:44:49] this morning and un unless
[1:44:50] you want to sit around for
[1:44:52] another two hours with us
[1:44:53] you're welcome to but if not
[1:44:54] we've come to an end of our
[1:44:56] agenda for this first
[1:44:59] interim session I foresee the
[1:45:02] October meeting being much more
[1:45:03] packed given the the
[1:45:06] content of of what's gonna be
[1:45:08] discussed which again includes
[1:45:10] economic development, property
[1:45:12] taxation and affordability that
[1:45:13] includes housing retail
[1:45:14] purchasing etc etc and that list
[1:45:16] can go on and so again I would
[1:45:18] encourage us that if there are
[1:45:20] pieces of legislation that that
[1:45:21] you want to have
[1:45:25] analyzed by ourlfc please get
[1:45:27] that into them again please
[1:45:29] treat christina and the team
[1:45:30] with with the utmost of respect
[1:45:31] and care because they're working
[1:45:32] on our behalf and they work
[1:45:34] extremely hard for all of us
[1:45:36] and and again that's for all of
[1:45:38] us around this table and those
[1:45:39] of us that and those of you
[1:45:41] that might be lobbyists that
[1:45:42] want to try to engage in the
[1:45:44] conversation with them they work
[1:45:46] for all of us so please do treat
[1:45:48] them with care we appreciate
[1:45:49] your your engagement during
[1:45:50] these past couple of days and
[1:45:51] with that we will see you again
[1:45:51] in October
[1:45:53] thank you all very much we're
[1:45:54] adjourned