[0:19] well I, if I were you I'd go to
[0:20] the store and get some of the
[0:21] Bob Evans mashed potatoes so you
[0:22] don't have to make them to make
[0:25] you know what I'm talking about
[0:27] they're pretty good. I think
[0:28] they sell them the wrongs
[0:32] I think the you call I call
[0:33] first to make sure they have
[0:34] some pretty girl over there
[0:36] but that way you could at least
[0:36] go ahead and have your mashed
[0:37] potatoes
[0:48] you can get all of that at ro's
[0:48] too you don't have to go I want
[0:49] to
[1:43] right
[1:50] sorry about that senatorice umlm
[1:53] the we're a little bit less
[1:54] formal with our interim studies
[1:57] than we are with regular
[1:59] senate meetings but the
[2:04] interim study2026-72 will now
[2:06] come to order and the way
[2:07] we're going to run it as
[2:11] Senatorice will call her
[2:13] presenters and if there's any
[2:15] place that when you're
[2:16] ready for questions or the
[2:16] present
[2:20] ers need to be ready for
[2:20] questions that's fine
[2:24] if we need to take a brief
[2:26] recess or anything like that
[2:27] because we're having some
[2:29] technological difficulties and
[2:31] we'll address those as they
[2:34] arise so without further ado
[2:35] Senatorice ma'am the floor is
[2:36] yours
[2:39] thank you Mr chairir and our
[2:41] members of the committee I know
[2:43] we will be expecting at least
[2:45] one or a couple more. thank you
[2:47] for the opportunity to present
[2:49] the centrum study and thank you
[2:50] for those attending today's
[2:53] interim study online and in
[2:55] those in attendance that are
[2:57] watching in special gratitude
[2:59] topresentative Ellen Heffner
[3:03] for being here with me on this
[3:05] afternoon. I would also like to
[3:06] acknowledge the Oklahoma
[3:06] animalimal coal
[3:09] ition for organizing today's
[3:10] discussion and bringing together
[3:11] experts from across the state
[3:14] and the nation. Oklahoma is
[3:16] currently the only state in the
[3:18] country with a mandatory pound
[3:20] seizure statute that was enacted
[3:21] in 1957.
[3:27] and this law allows research
[3:29] institutions to compel municipal
[3:31] shelters to surrender unclaimed
[3:33] dogs and cats for research
[3:35] unless a local opt out ordinance
[3:37] is in place and as you will hear
[3:39] today this practice has not been
[3:41] used in many years and federal
[3:44] policy has shifted decisively
[3:46] away from random source animal
[3:49] acquisition and modern research
[3:51] increasingly relies on human
[3:52] relevant methods our go
[3:55] al this afternoon is
[3:56] straightforward to examine
[3:57] whether this statute still
[4:00] serves a practical purpose to
[4:01] understand its impact on
[4:03] shelters and to evaluate whether
[4:06] Oklahoma should consider repeal
[4:09] or modernization. I appreciate
[4:10] the committee's attention to
[4:11] this issue and I look forward to
[4:13] the perspectives that our
[4:16] presenters will share and we do
[4:19] have a quite a few presenters
[4:21] with us today and all of them
[4:22] have expertise on this topic
[4:22] more
[4:25] expertise than I do so I'm very
[4:27] grateful that they are with us
[4:29] so we will hear more about pound
[4:31] seizure and overview of the
[4:32] practice and history of pound
[4:34] seizure within our state
[4:37] licensing of institutions to
[4:39] procure live dogs and cats from
[4:41] municipal animal shelters pound
[4:42] seizure and its effect on urban
[4:45] municipal animal shelters and
[4:47] regional and national
[4:49] perspective regarding animal
[4:50] research and random source
[4:52] testing in a case study Freedom
[4:52] Fields in solution
[4:55] s to address pound seizures in
[4:57] Oklahoma and we welcome all
[4:58] questions from our committee
[5:01] members and I will follow up
[5:03] with questions as well so we
[5:04] will go with the order of
[5:09] the agenda we have on the agenda
[5:11] a presenter who is not present
[5:13] with us today but we will
[5:15] continue with the conversation
[5:18] so we will begin with Shannon
[5:21] Keith Esquire for president and
[5:22] founder of the beaglereedom
[5:25] Project following her after
[5:27] questions we'll have Ccynthia
[5:29] Armstrong, the Oklahoma state
[5:31] director of humane world for
[5:33] animalimals and following that
[5:35] we will have Tina Gunter Esquire
[5:36] she is the general
[5:39] council director of Oklahoma
[5:40] department of agriculture Food
[5:43] and forestry we also have Miss
[5:47] sherrieerrier the director of
[5:49] Tulsa Animal Services Lindsay
[5:51] Sofi she's the head of programs
[5:54] for rise for animalimals and we
[5:57] will close again with Shannon
[5:59] Keith Esquire with the
[6:00] beaglereedom Project so very
[6:01] grateful that all of those are
[6:03] in attendance with us on today
[6:05] and look forward to this great
[6:06] discuss
[6:08] ion so without further ado I
[6:11] welcome comments about what
[6:13] is a pound seizure from Miss
[6:14] Shannon Keith.
[6:21] right oh here I am
[6:24] thank you so much thank you for
[6:26] having us I'm Shannon Keith.
[6:27] I'm an animal rights attorney
[6:29] and president and founder
[6:31] ofeagle Freedom Project we're a
[6:35] nonprofit501c3 animal
[6:37] advocacygan organization and we
[6:39] specialize in rescuing
[6:41] rehabilitating and rehoming
[6:43] animals used in animal research
[6:46] we have a facility in Nowata,
[6:48] Oklahoma we shut down an animal
[6:51] testing facility there and we
[6:52] took custody of all of the
[6:55] animals there and we now have a
[6:57] facility that is a sanctuary and
[7:00] beautiful facility of 30 acres
[7:01] where we have animals that are
[7:05] victims of animal testing.
[7:06] I'm gonna make this quick
[7:06] because I'm gonna be rounding it
[7:08] out at the end and talking all
[7:10] about pound seizure what it is
[7:12] the statistics the research
[7:15] that we've done in Oklahoma
[7:17] with the municipal shelters here
[7:19] what we found out what we do
[7:21] specifically but I wanted to
[7:22] show you all
[7:24] a video that we made over the
[7:25] years we've been around
[7:27] since2010 and we've done a lot
[7:29] of rescuing we've rescued
[7:31] over4,500 animals from animal
[7:33] testing and a lot of those
[7:35] animals were the victims of
[7:37] pound's seizure and what that
[7:38] means is that
[7:41] these animals these dogs and
[7:44] cats were in the pound and we
[7:45] don't know how they ended up
[7:47] there whether they got lost,
[7:48] they were somebody's family
[7:49] member
[7:52] and they were stray however they
[7:53] ended up there they then were
[7:55] either sold or given to an
[7:57] animal testing laboratory and
[7:58] they're used for testing
[8:00] luckily
[8:03] through one circumstance or
[8:05] another our organization was
[8:06] able to rescue some of them but
[8:09] they were just a drop in the
[8:10] bucket
[8:12] there are many more that didn't
[8:13] get the opportunity to be
[8:16] rescued so this video shows
[8:19] the story of two lucky survivors
[8:21] that we had the opportunity to
[8:24] rescue and shows you a little
[8:26] bit in depth of what their
[8:28] rescue stories were like and how
[8:31] meaningful it is to rescue these
[8:34] survivors and how important it
[8:35] is to stop this practice
[8:36] so here's a little bit about us
[8:37] and their stories
[8:41] and play
[8:43] is that the right button
[8:47] No
[8:49] there we go
[9:15] this is nutmeg. she is the
[9:19] sweetest lovable cuddly little
[9:20] nutmeg
[9:23] and she's really silly and she's
[9:24] really kind.
[9:27] o a does her dance parties and
[9:28] that my watches
[9:31] they're a little pair
[9:38] nutmegs so sweet and lovable but
[9:41] to know also that humans did
[9:41] like horrible things to her.
[9:46] utmeg came from a lab
[9:50] in the lab had gotten her from a
[9:50] pound
[10:01] we had no idea that labs could
[10:02] get dogs from the pound.
[10:07] I was shocked because like I
[10:09] loved dogs my whole life but I'd
[10:11] never like heard of that to be
[10:13] happy in America people in our
[10:14] country would even think that
[10:15] that's something acceptable
[10:23] this is max. he was a pound
[10:25] seizure. he's got a lot of
[10:27] incisions they have a lab they
[10:29] were surgically implanting
[10:30] tumors all over his body
[10:34] I'm just amazed at how forgiving
[10:36] he is because I can't imagine
[10:37] what he was going through
[10:40] when she was rescued she was
[10:40] underweight she was
[10:45] caged pretty much24/7 but also
[10:48] tested on I think it was like
[10:49] some sort of medications and
[10:51] something to do with tumors that
[10:52] made her very susceptible to
[10:53] tumors.
[10:55] and she needed a few surgeries
[10:59] and the fact that she's so sweet
[11:00] is to it's crazy to me
[11:05] I feel like when they're pulling
[11:07] the dogs to tests on were
[11:08] violating that trust.
[11:11] I think it's just a sad
[11:13] manipulation that we're you
[11:16] violating that relationship and
[11:19] violating just the trust that's
[11:20] always been there between dogs
[11:20] and people
[11:31] then and only child I sometimes
[11:32] get lonely cause like I want to
[11:34] play with someone but like
[11:37] nutmeg cheese almost like she's
[11:38] like my really best friend
[11:41] for me as her dad to like know
[11:43] that she has such a sweet just
[11:45] such a sweet soul in there too
[11:47] and like the bond that they've
[11:48] grown it's almost like to the
[11:49] level of siblings like they're
[11:50] they're inseparable.
[11:56] that bond between a dog and its
[11:57] family and a dog and its owner
[11:58] and a dog and its person
[11:59] is
[12:02] something that's unbreakable for
[12:02] them
[12:06] you know something that's really
[12:07] should be cherished as a
[12:08] really special thing
[12:13] we have a lot of neighbors that
[12:14] are out in the morning when
[12:17] we're going on our walk and he
[12:18] well he will say hi to them.
[12:19] they'll kind of he knows the
[12:21] houses and he'll pull off to the
[12:22] side and he'll want to greet
[12:23] them
[12:27] he just wants to show love.
[12:35] that's her little sister it's
[12:37] it's our baby it's our member of
[12:39] our family so when you're making
[12:40] laws to think about that
[12:54] they deserve to run around the
[12:56] yard playing with the ball
[12:59] rolling onto their back getting
[13:01] belly scratches we need to give
[13:03] all of these dogs a chance to
[13:06] love us and to receive that
[13:06] love.
[13:11] it's what type of society do we
[13:13] want to be in this country? do
[13:15] we want to be one that cast
[13:16] aside animals we can give them
[13:19] over to labs for testing or do
[13:20] we want to aspire to be better
[13:24] and think about them as members
[13:26] of people's families babies
[13:26] siblings
[13:29] that's the whole point of what
[13:31] our laws should aspire to be a
[13:33] better society and it's a better
[13:34] country as a whole
[14:08] M Armstrong if you'll just
[14:09] pushed your button to
[14:11] where your red light on your
[14:13] microphone lights up then we'll
[14:14] be able to hear you and if you
[14:15] don't mind just introduce
[14:17] yourself again please Yes I will
[14:18] thank you so much
[14:22] so my name iscynthia
[14:22] Armstrong
[14:25] I'm the Oklahoma state director
[14:27] for humanmane world for
[14:30] animalimals. I have worked in
[14:31] that position for the last
[14:32] couple of decades
[14:37] in Oklahoma and it has been
[14:39] my privilege to work with many
[14:41] state and local policymakers
[14:45] as well as provide trainings for
[14:47] our law enforcement agencies
[14:49] across Oklahoma in the
[14:50] investigation of crimes of
[14:50] animal cruelty
[14:54] and I have also had the very
[14:55] distinct pleasure of working
[14:57] with many of our municipal
[14:59] animal shelters and humane
[15:00] organizations
[15:03] across the state and they do
[15:05] really frontline life saving
[15:06] work so
[15:09] that has been my privilege. they
[15:11] work hard to make sure that
[15:13] animals like nutmeg make it out
[15:15] of these shelters and into
[15:16] loving homes
[15:19] Now I am going to advance my own
[15:20] slides if I can
[15:21] figure this out
[15:23] that work
[15:25] Oh here we go
[15:28] OK
[15:33] So in my presentation what I
[15:35] really want to cover is what
[15:37] is pound seizure how did that
[15:39] begin and and gain traction in
[15:40] the United States
[15:44] what are the key dates that
[15:46] we want to know in the evolution
[15:49] of the practice of pound seizure
[15:50] what does that look like
[15:50] nationally
[15:53] which states prohibit it which
[15:54] states
[15:55] have no
[15:59] opinion on it at all or at least
[16:01] no statute and then which states
[16:05] mandate it and of course that is
[16:07] the state of Oklahoma the only
[16:08] state that still mandates the
[16:08] practice.
[16:13] we'll talk specifically about
[16:14] the history of pound seizure in
[16:14] Oklahoma
[16:19] and issues with the practice why
[16:20] is it considered controversial
[16:23] is it still needed given the
[16:25] scientific advancements in the
[16:27] field of animal research and and
[16:28] human research
[16:30] and then where do we go from
[16:31] here? what are our options
[16:33] and and recommendations
[16:41] so pound seizure really gained a
[16:42] lot of traction in the United
[16:43] States in the fort0s and50s.
[16:47] in these pan seizure laws
[16:49] started being enacted state by
[16:52] state. uhokklahoma's was enacted
[16:53] in 1951
[16:57] and during the fortiess and
[17:00] fiftiess postorld WarI there was
[17:03] a resurgence of a lot of
[17:04] interest
[17:07] in biomedical and pharmaceutical
[17:10] research and also commercial
[17:11] product development which would
[17:12] involve testing of animals
[17:16] and they determined rightly or
[17:18] wrongly that there was a
[17:21] plentiful supply of animals to
[17:22] be testing subjects
[17:25] in the shelters around the
[17:27] United States so they went state
[17:29] by state and lobbied to mandate
[17:31] pan seizure in a number of
[17:32] states
[17:34] it
[17:37] obviously
[17:39] it involves
[17:43] research institutions or
[17:46] middlemen calledlass B dealers
[17:47] coming to a shelter and
[17:48] demanding the unclaimed pets
[17:51] for use in research
[17:55] experimentation or testing or
[17:56] education
[18:03] So these key dates really relate
[18:04] to
[18:09] the random sourcela B dealer and
[18:11] as soon as the pound seizure
[18:12] statutes were enacted
[18:16] the random sourcelassy dealer
[18:16] came into being
[18:18] these
[18:21] people were problematic from the
[18:23] very beginning they even
[18:25] though they were licensed by the
[18:27] United States Department of
[18:29] Agriculture and they were
[18:30] regulated and subject to
[18:30] enforcement
[18:35] and they were chronic compliance
[18:39] problems for USDA they had a
[18:41] lot of animal welfare violations
[18:43] of the federal animalimal
[18:45] welfare Act which the USDA is
[18:46] charged with enforcing
[18:48] and they
[18:52] caused a lot of problems so much
[18:53] so that there was a
[18:57] great amount of public outcry
[18:58] against the practice and
[19:02] the national institute of Health
[19:05] at the request of Congress asked
[19:07] the national academies of
[19:09] Sciences to conduct a study and
[19:10] talk about do we really need
[19:14] these random source animals are
[19:15] they really significantly
[19:17] valuable to the research
[19:20] community and as you can see
[19:20] from the dates
[19:27] from2009 when the study began on
[19:29] this topic through2023 we
[19:33] went from not providing NIH
[19:34] grant funding for people who use
[19:37] random source animals all the
[19:37] way to permanently preventing
[19:41] the USDA from issuing
[19:43] licenses to this kind of dealer.
[19:46] so there are not currently any
[19:48] class random source class B
[19:48] dealers at this time
[19:50] there was
[19:54] a very infamous lapy dealer
[19:57] in Oklahoma that was one of the
[19:59] last to lose his license and his
[20:02] name was henry Lee Cooper he
[20:04] operated C andC kennels out of
[20:04] Waoka
[20:09] he was a problematic fellow he
[20:15] had several enforcement actions
[20:19] against him by the USDA in2007
[20:21] USDA filed an official complaint
[20:22] against him
[20:24] and I want to be precise about
[20:25] this so I'll read what that
[20:29] animal welfare actct violation
[20:31] was within the USDA complaint
[20:35] and they found that he had at
[20:37] his kennel dogs in danger of
[20:39] injury from structurally unsound
[20:41] cages inadequate pest
[20:43] prevention, dirty water
[20:45] containers, failure to maintain
[20:46] an adequate veterinary care
[20:48] program dogs in needed of
[20:48] veterinary care
[20:51] keeping of unidentified animals
[20:54] animals acquired from
[20:57] unidentified sources excess
[20:59] animal waste in cages, dogs kept
[21:02] without access to shelter and he
[21:04] was cited for creating false
[21:04] acquisition records
[21:07] so
[21:11] you can see and he he was one of
[21:14] many that that had these types
[21:17] of problems in2008 they
[21:20] suspended his license and
[21:20] then
[21:23] they got rid of the po the
[21:24] random source altogether
[21:35] So pound seizure in the US as
[21:36] we stand now
[21:40] we have 18 states that have laws
[21:40] that ban it outright
[21:45] and we have other states that
[21:46] allow it but don't require it
[21:49] and there's still may be
[21:51] ordinances that ban the practice
[21:53] in certain municipalities and
[21:56] then as you'll see on the map
[21:58] some states don't weigh in on
[21:58] the the issue at all
[22:00] so
[22:04] the light blue states are the
[22:07] ones that have banned it the
[22:09] darkk green still allow it and
[22:13] but don't mandate it and then of
[22:14] course Oklahoma there in the
[22:15] middle it's still required
[22:22] OK oh all right
[22:28] so pound seizure in Oklahoma did
[22:29] did everybody get a chance to
[22:30] look at the map and
[22:31] yeah
[22:35] I don't know why I'm looking
[22:37] behind me I have this very good
[22:38] ok so there's the map
[22:41] and again the light blue
[22:45] are the states that have banned
[22:47] the practice of pan seizure
[22:49] altogether. The green states
[22:53] allow it but don't mandate it
[22:57] and then the remaining state
[22:59] that still requires it or
[23:01] mandates it is Oklahoma
[23:09] OK and so a little bit of the
[23:09] history of pound seizure in
[23:11] Oklahoma our statute was passed
[23:12] in 1951
[23:15] and
[23:18] it requires that the shelter
[23:19] must provide unclaimed
[23:20] pets
[23:24] if if a research institution or
[23:29] a hotel biology supply
[23:30] concern wants the animals
[23:35] it stipulates that dogs must
[23:36] be held at least 15 days without
[23:37] a license and 30 days with a
[23:40] license. I would note that there
[23:40] are quite a few
[23:43] animal shelters in Oklahoma that
[23:44] don't
[23:47] do licensing of their pets
[23:49] within their municipality so
[23:53] waiting an extra 1f days for
[23:55] a dog with a license you
[23:57] probably wouldn't run into that
[23:59] too often. there's no
[23:59] specified holding period for
[24:00] cats
[24:05] fortunately in 1997 the law
[24:07] was amended to allow
[24:09] municipalities to opt out and
[24:11] not participate in this demand
[24:12] requirement
[24:15] and and several have
[24:18] it's interesting I
[24:23] I started working at the capitol
[24:26] on animal issues in2005.
[24:29] and I'm monitoring
[24:31] legislation2008 comes along
[24:35] and I see a bill and it is
[24:38] trying to expand our already
[24:38] kind of archaic
[24:41] pound seizure statute and I'm
[24:43] thinking what is that about what
[24:45] who's doing that who's
[24:45] requesting that bill
[24:48] and so I did a little research
[24:50] and found out that the
[24:51] individual requesting the bill
[24:53] was from out of state.
[24:56] He was from California. he was a
[24:56] man named Michael Sergent
[24:59] of Sergent's wholesal
[25:03] Biologicals and he had just
[25:07] gotten in trouble in Tulare
[25:09] County, California for bribing
[25:10] animal shelter employees to
[25:11] conduct
[25:15] mesh euthanasias so that he
[25:16] would have more carcasses to
[25:17] sell for his biological supply
[25:19] company. He
[25:22] it was widely covered in the
[25:22] press
[25:28] he let me just say there were
[25:28] also two
[25:32] toulare County animal control
[25:33] employees who were also charged
[25:36] with multiple felony counts
[25:38] related to embezzlement, bribery
[25:40] and animal cruelty so
[25:45] this was a serious problem I
[25:47] certainly was concerned about
[25:48] his plan to move his business to
[25:48] Oklahoma
[25:50] so we
[25:55] worked on meeting with all of
[25:57] the members of the house Public
[25:58] Health Committee at the time
[26:01] visited with everyone talked
[26:02] about the very
[26:05] important role that community
[26:06] animal shelters play
[26:07] for the citizens
[26:12] I mean that the it's critical
[26:13] that citizens have confidence
[26:17] in the true mission of an animal
[26:20] shelter and that they are not
[26:21] calling and when you're dealing
[26:23] dogs out the back whether you're
[26:24] being required to or whether
[26:27] you're making these deals like
[26:28] Michael Sergent did in in
[26:28] California
[26:31] it calls into question what is
[26:33] the true mission of the shelter?
[26:35] are you really concerned about
[26:38] rehoming animals and being
[26:39] conscientious about that or are
[26:42] you dealing dogs out the back
[26:42] door as a cheap source of supply
[26:45] for research and
[26:47] pharmaceutical companies. So
[26:53] we defeated that bill the
[26:53] public health committee members
[26:57] really understood the the
[26:59] conflict and the problem and the
[27:01] betrayal of public trust and so
[27:02] we defeated the bill in2008
[27:07] it came back in2009 and this
[27:11] version actually expanded
[27:11] what they wanted to do and they
[27:12] wanted to
[27:19] make criminal penalties for
[27:21] animal shelter employees that
[27:22] would not hand over or refuse to
[27:27] hand over the animals. So we
[27:28] talked to the committee members
[27:29] again we
[27:33] they've got the message and
[27:35] we defeated it for a second year
[27:36] in a row fortunately
[27:39] so that's how I got to know
[27:40] aboutmisergent
[27:44] the the infamousmi Sargent and
[27:44] henry Lee Cooper.
[27:52] Well I would say in in terms of
[27:57] you know a lot has happened
[27:59] since the 1940s and1950s and are
[28:01] not the least of which is
[28:04] advances in the way research is
[28:06] conducted as it turns out
[28:07] animals are not a perfect
[28:11] candidate to to
[28:15] end up with human relevant
[28:16] results when you're looking at
[28:18] the efficacy of a medicine or
[28:19] what are the harmful side
[28:21] effects there are lots of
[28:23] techniques and advances now that
[28:25] can be used that are more
[28:26] specifically related to the
[28:27] human body
[28:29] and so that that has
[28:34] changed quite a bit
[28:37] our federal agencies are also
[28:40] moving away from animal testing
[28:45] the EPA wants to has has set as
[28:46] a goal ending
[28:50] mammalian animal testing by2035
[28:52] and it's updated its list of
[28:53] nonanimal methods for use by
[28:56] companies and streamline the
[28:58] process for allowing companies
[28:59] that are trying to bring a
[29:01] product to market to submit new
[29:03] alternative methods for
[29:04] consideration
[29:06] fdaA
[29:09] their goal is to phase out
[29:10] certain animal tests in the next
[29:13] 3 to5 years and of course NIH
[29:15] they are the ones that push to
[29:16] get rid of the random sourcelapy
[29:17] dealer because they were so
[29:19] problematic and they have now
[29:24] created an office that
[29:25] prioritizes what are called
[29:28] human relevant methods meaning
[29:30] methods that are more
[29:30] specifically
[29:35] adaptable to human beings rather
[29:37] than testing safe on on dogs and
[29:39] then not really being safer
[29:40] human beings
[29:43] And I will say too
[29:48] in terms of the educational use
[29:48] of of animals that are
[29:53] were purchased from shelters or
[29:55] demanded from shelters our
[29:55] veterinary school
[29:57] used to conduct
[30:01] perm what are called terminal
[30:03] surgeries and they would use
[30:05] animals that were purchased from
[30:07] Class B dealers and that was
[30:08] kind of an old way of doing
[30:10] things and then the animals were
[30:11] killed at the end of the
[30:13] instruction and through
[30:18] a lot of student advocacy public
[30:21] pressure donor pressure and
[30:23] they made the change in fact
[30:24] they made the change from
[30:27] terminal surgeries to
[30:27] beneficial surgeries
[30:34] in2009 and they have a wonderful
[30:37] beneficial surgery rotation
[30:39] that they provide for their
[30:40] students who can go to their
[30:43] website and look at it but I I
[30:44] was just very impressed. I
[30:45] remember when all of that was
[30:46] happening I went to several of
[30:47] those meetings
[30:49] and they are helping
[30:54] over 3000 shelter animals each
[30:56] year through their beneficial
[30:59] sur surgical rotation they are
[31:00] learning how to anesthetize they
[31:00] are spaying and neutering
[31:04] they are learning pain
[31:06] management they are
[31:09] practicing dental procedures on
[31:10] these animals and they are
[31:11] making these animals more
[31:13] adaptable and they're learning
[31:15] concurrently so it's it's a real
[31:17] win win'm very proud of our vet
[31:18] school for doing that
[31:26] So where do we go from here?
[31:27] Well
[31:31] I personally would love to see
[31:33] Oklahoma repeal the statute in
[31:36] its entirety and make sure that
[31:37] the door is shut on any future
[31:40] activity like this
[31:44] there are still practices that
[31:45] she you know that can benefit
[31:47] animals that would be able to
[31:49] continue even if we repeal the
[31:50] statute
[31:53] and just as I mentioned with the
[31:54] OSU the school of eterinary
[31:56] medicine Spain needer programs
[31:57] that help the shelter and they
[31:58] help the students learn
[32:03] and I hope that we will join the
[32:05] other states that have banned
[32:06] the practice and
[32:10] that would be a wonderful thing
[32:10] to celebrate for Oklahoma
[32:15] and that is the end of my
[32:17] presentation. thank you for your
[32:18] attention
[32:23] thank you so much Miss Armstrong
[32:24] are there any questions from
[32:25] committee members
[32:29] if not
[32:33] if not we'll continue with
[32:37] our our next presenter we have
[32:39] Miss Tinaunter. she's a general
[32:41] counsel director for Oklahoma
[32:43] department of agriculture, Food
[32:44] and forestry.
[32:51] good afternoon appreciate
[32:53] y'all having me here. The
[32:55] Miss Armstrong went over what
[32:56] the law does. I'm going to give
[32:57] you our experience of it
[33:01] we have0 experience of it the
[33:03] program was transferred from the
[33:04] department of healthalth to the
[33:05] department of agriculture
[33:08] in2012. That law specified that
[33:09] the Department of Health would
[33:12] provide us their records. there
[33:13] were no records. I don't think
[33:15] they had anyone licensed under
[33:17] this at that time and we have
[33:19] never even had an inquiry until
[33:21] the interim study came up about
[33:23] anything of our dealing with on
[33:27] that on on that law so we've
[33:28] never had a license issued
[33:29] by the department of agriculture
[33:31] on this matter and we don't have
[33:35] in in most people's collective
[33:36] memory we don't even have hardly
[33:37] any memory of it. they don't
[33:39] they they barely realize it's a
[33:41] law that we have within our
[33:43] purview we've never had an
[33:45] application and we don't even
[33:46] have an application form if
[33:49] someone wanted to do this we'd
[33:50] have to make it up at that point
[33:54] to to license them so so it's
[33:55] kind of an interesting program
[33:57] that we just and my
[33:59] understanding is when it came
[34:00] over to us I was kind of told
[34:02] that
[34:07] nobody does it anymore so and
[34:08] and that's why that we didn't
[34:09] receive any records or anything
[34:10] like that that people just
[34:11] weren't were no longer had the
[34:13] will to do that the pound
[34:15] seizure as as a part of their as
[34:16] a part of their work so
[34:19] so that's kind of in a nutshell
[34:21] the department of gs experience
[34:22] with it and happy to answer
[34:22] questions
[34:27] thank you that was to the point.
[34:29] are there any questions with
[34:30] relation? yes Senator Goodwin
[34:35] I'm just curious how did it get
[34:37] into your purview because we're
[34:39] talking about animals and I see
[34:42] food forestry and agriculture so
[34:43] I'm just a little I can see
[34:45] cattle but I'm just wondering
[34:47] how that got into your purview
[34:49] our our state veterinarian is
[34:51] responsible for all animal
[34:53] health in the state so we we we
[34:55] have several programs that deal
[34:57] with these kinds of animals and
[35:00] for example we have the pet
[35:02] shelter and dog breeding
[35:02] program within our agency
[35:06] that we we license facilities
[35:07] and and inspect and regulate
[35:08] those.
[35:11] thank you and if you don't mind
[35:13] I do have a couple of questions
[35:14] if you know of any local
[35:16] ordinances that prevent pound
[35:17] seizure in Oklahoma. are you
[35:19] aware of any? I don't know of
[35:21] any specifically but my I've
[35:23] heard that the larger cities
[35:24] especially like Oklahoma City
[35:26] and Tulsa don't do not allow it
[35:27] and it's been a part of theirs
[35:29] but it's not something that I
[35:31] have I didn't need to look it up
[35:34] there was no one asking so I
[35:36] understand and my second
[35:37] question if you can describe the
[35:38] benefits of a statewide ban on
[35:39] pound seizure
[35:42] over local officials needing to
[35:43] deal with this issue in their
[35:44] local municipality.
[35:47] well and you know I've only
[35:51] anecdotally would be saying that
[35:52] that you know generally the
[35:54] public doesn't like this idea so
[35:57] so you you if if that
[35:58] continued then and people got
[36:00] wind of it or somebody came to
[36:03] us for a license then I can
[36:04] anticipate that there would
[36:04] probably be quite the outcry
[36:05] over it
[36:08] all right are there any other
[36:09] questions from any committee
[36:13] membersunter thank you for being
[36:14] here thank you for your service
[36:16] to the state of Oklahoma my
[36:19] question would be and I I
[36:19] might should have asked this
[36:21] earlier and if you don't have
[36:23] the answer to it and my
[36:25] apologies but
[36:28] the the the laboratories that
[36:31] are acquiring these animals
[36:33] under pound seizure are they
[36:35] buying these animals or are they
[36:36] just taking them?
[36:41] the educate the they have to
[36:43] have the license and so there
[36:45] would presumably be a fee for us
[36:47] under that but I don't see any
[36:49] indication one way or the other
[36:51] in this law that tells them they
[36:53] have to pay for those animals or
[36:55] that they have to or or that
[36:57] they have to provide some
[37:00] kind of a a fee or purchase
[37:01] it's not it's certainly not
[37:03] spelled out in in the statute at
[37:04] this time
[37:11] OK thank you so much M Gunter
[37:13] for your presentation. next we
[37:15] will hear from Miss
[37:17] Sherrieerrier and she's a
[37:18] director of Tulsa Animal
[37:19] Services and she may be able to
[37:21] answer that question that you
[37:23] just asked Mr Chair and she'll
[37:24] be talking about pound seizure
[37:26] and its effect on urban
[37:28] municipal animal shelters thank
[37:29] you for being here thank you for
[37:32] having me also brought our
[37:35] deputy director Mr Colton Jones
[37:37] I think it's important to
[37:37] always have our team because it
[37:38] take
[37:39] s a team to take care of
[37:40] community animals here in
[37:40] Oklahoma
[37:44] if you
[37:47] ever looked up the word pound
[37:49] which I really hadn't thought
[37:50] about it too much
[37:53] this comes from an old
[37:54] agricultural community
[37:58] where towns use fence enclosure
[38:00] called pinfolds or pounds to
[38:02] hold loose stray farm livestock
[38:03] livestock until owners claim
[38:04] them.
[38:07] Colton would know more about
[38:09] that than me because he grew up
[38:11] on a farm and I did not but
[38:12] that's the history of the word
[38:16] the a story a lady came into our
[38:21] shelter facility a few months
[38:22] back her name was Catherine
[38:23] I could tell she was an older
[38:24] lady
[38:27] She came in to ask for some
[38:29] assistance with some kittens and
[38:30] we became close
[38:33] but when she came in she asked
[38:34] for the pound master
[38:35] and
[38:37] my team members came in to tell
[38:39] me there's a lady here to see
[38:41] the pound master and I said, you
[38:43] know, I don't know what you're
[38:45] talking about. no she's here
[38:46] to see the pound master.
[38:48] So I went out and she said are
[38:49] you the pound master?
[38:52] I said my name's sherrie. I'm
[38:53] the director of this facility.
[38:55] So we became close we helped her
[38:58] with her her kitten issues
[38:59] several times I saw her. it
[39:01] was like we bonded and she told
[39:03] me a story that she was actually
[39:05] the first female that worked at
[39:06] the Tulsa animalimal pound
[39:10] obviously that was several years
[39:12] years ago and I assumed this
[39:13] lady was probably in her
[39:15] eightiess but it was a a bond
[39:17] and a connection that I won't
[39:19] ever forget and definitely my
[39:21] team won't ever forget that she
[39:22] asked for the poundmaster
[39:26] and just as this law is really
[39:27] obsolete
[39:30] just like those words are. you
[39:31] know the pound and the pound
[39:32] master no longer exists
[39:37] we're here to help animals.
[39:38] We're here to protect them from
[39:41] harm. we're not here to support
[39:42] a law where somebody can come in
[39:44] and request animals to be used
[39:46] for research purposes for
[39:46] testing
[39:51] we've not gotten any requests.
[39:53] Colton and I have been at the
[39:54] facility now
[39:57] for about four years and we
[39:58] have not gotten any requests
[40:01] but as I said we're working
[40:03] to protect animals not to harm
[40:04] them.
[40:07] we have the place of last resort
[40:09] for our community animals and it
[40:11] takes a lot of people to take
[40:13] care of them so we do the best
[40:14] of our ability to do that
[40:15] and in saying that
[40:17] you know we could have had a
[40:20] pound many many years ago that
[40:20] became a shelter
[40:23] and now we have a new name and
[40:25] we've included services in our
[40:26] name
[40:28] and waiting on a brand new
[40:30] facility hopefully by the end of
[40:31] this year or the first of next
[40:34] year to do even more services to
[40:35] help and protect these animals
[40:38] so as a director of a city
[40:39] municipal animal facility
[40:43] it's imperative that we have
[40:44] public trust that was mentioned
[40:44] before.
[40:48] this adds to our opportunities
[40:50] for success and it's been proven
[40:50] in Tulsa
[40:54] as we went, you know,3.5 to4
[40:57] years ago with a66% live release
[40:58] rate to now trending almost 83%.
[41:02] we're not where we want to be
[41:04] yet but we're getting there and
[41:05] that's because of public trust
[41:07] and all of the efforts of our
[41:09] team members and our volunteers
[41:10] and our community in Tulsa
[41:17] Public trust is compromised
[41:18] having a mandatory pound seizure
[41:19] law and it's hanging over our
[41:20] head.
[41:23] this is why it Tulsa at some
[41:24] point
[41:25] before coton and I were there
[41:29] there was something put in our
[41:31] city ordinance. but on 914 we're
[41:32] going to go before the Tulsa
[41:34] Animal welfare Commission. we're
[41:35] gonna to review this ordinance
[41:37] and we're gonna see if we need
[41:39] to strengthen that language
[41:42] update it so that it
[41:42] represents our current
[41:43] department.
[41:49] once we get approval to move
[41:51] forward from the animal
[41:52] welfaremission if we need to do
[41:54] so we'll approach the mayor and
[41:56] the city council to strengthen
[41:59] that law if we need to do it.
[42:00] and that will be coming up like
[42:00] I said 914.
[42:03] and I'm happy to answer any
[42:04] questions if you have any.
[42:11] are there any questions from
[42:12] other committee members
[42:16] carrier thank you for being here
[42:18] and my only question is
[42:20] the the one that I asked of
[42:21] the previous presenter
[42:25] under this law are the
[42:28] animals being if anybody knows
[42:30] are the animals being purchased
[42:32] or are they being requisitioned.
[42:34] I couldn't tell you thatir we
[42:35] haven't had a single request
[42:38] since we've been there. if it
[42:39] happened before I have no
[42:40] knowledge of
[42:43] Thank you very much appreciate
[42:44] y'all.
[42:49] thank you so much.ppreciate you.
[42:50] 01 more I'm sorry
[42:53] kind of follow up on chairman's
[42:55] question this may go to Miss
[42:57] Armstrong whoever
[43:00] on the out of state laboratories
[43:02] requesting these animals how
[43:03] many is that? do we have any
[43:06] knowledge of how many animals
[43:09] are being transported across
[43:11] state lines we we don't have
[43:11] knowledge we we've had no
[43:12] request
[43:23] So I can give you a snapshot in
[43:27] time for the random sourcelass B
[43:28] dealer henry Lee Cooper that
[43:30] operated in Oklahoma let me grab
[43:31] that
[43:31] so
[43:37] in the time that he was had a
[43:38] random source class B dealer
[43:41] license
[43:45] it looks like
[43:51] he
[43:58] Think with the between the years
[43:59] oh here we go
[44:02] yeah I think he
[44:09] between the years2006 and2007
[44:10] invoices indicated that
[44:11] he had
[44:19] sold2,395 animals from2004
[44:20] to2006.
[44:24] earning280,000 dollars over that
[44:25] period of time
[44:29] I didn't mention this in my
[44:30] presentation but I'll mention it
[44:30] now
[44:35] as as pound seizure grew and the
[44:37] public were rejecting the idea
[44:40] Life magazine I don't know
[44:41] how many of you remember Life
[44:44] magazine growing up but it was a
[44:46] big deal they had some
[44:46] investigative journalism
[44:50] and we're finding that the
[44:51] random sourcelassy dealers
[44:53] weren't just demanding unclaimed
[44:56] pets from animal shelters but
[44:58] they were also stealing them out
[44:59] of people's backyards it was
[45:00] lucrative and
[45:01] it just
[45:05] that was happening and so of
[45:06] course that added fuel to the
[45:06] fire
[45:09] you
[45:17] all right we also have joining
[45:19] us virtually
[45:23] Miss Lindsey Soist and she's
[45:24] giving us the national
[45:25] perspective regarding animal
[45:26] research and random source
[45:28] testing and she may be able to
[45:30] give us some insight on the the
[45:31] question that was just raised as
[45:33] well. Thank you Miss Lindsay we
[45:34] appreciate you being here
[45:36] thank you so much senatorice.
[45:39] I am
[45:43] going to share my screen if you
[45:44] guys OK perfect
[45:49] chairhamilton senator nice
[45:51] members of the committee thank
[45:52] you for the opportunity to speak
[45:53] today as part of this interim
[45:56] study on Oklahoma's mandatory
[45:57] pound seizure law. I am Lindseay
[45:59] Sois, head of programs atrise
[46:01] for Animals and national
[46:03] nonprofit organization seeking
[46:05] to end animal experimentation in
[46:06] our lifetime.
[46:08] I've been asked to bring the
[46:10] national perspective to this
[46:12] conversation. how animal
[46:13] research and random source
[46:15] animal procurement are
[46:17] positioned today where federal
[46:19] law and policy are moving and
[46:21] how Oklahoma s sets relative to
[46:22] the rest of the country.
[46:25] the vast majority of modern
[46:27] animal research doesn't involve
[46:28] dogs and cats at all
[46:31] In USDA's fiscal year2025
[46:34] reporting dogs and cats together
[46:37] accounted for less than 3% of
[46:39] all reported animals and
[46:40] reported animals are themselves
[46:42] a fraction of the total because
[46:43] most of the animals used in
[46:45] laboratories aren't subject to
[46:47] regulation and therefore are not
[46:48] subject to reporting
[46:52] Most of the dogs and cats used
[46:54] in experiments today are what
[46:55] industry calls purpose bread
[46:57] meaning their bread specifically
[46:59] for research by USDA
[47:02] licensedlass A breeders and
[47:04] dealers or raised in dedicated
[47:06] research colonies. a much
[47:09] smaller similarly unquantifiable
[47:11] portion or what industry calls
[47:13] random source animals. dogs and
[47:15] cats not bred for research but
[47:16] drawn from the general
[47:18] population. they arrive in labs
[47:19] primarily through
[47:21] federally licensed classy
[47:23] dealers who acquire animals from
[47:25] various sources including pounds
[47:27] and shelters and sell them to
[47:29] research facilities through the
[47:30] practice before you today pound
[47:31] seizure
[47:35] modern numbers are sparse if not
[47:37] outright nonexistent. USDA and
[47:39] NIH don't track or report on
[47:41] animal acquisition sources
[47:43] meaning that the figures we have
[47:44] stem from one off studies or
[47:45] reports
[47:47] we're not aware of a current
[47:49] breakdown approximating how many
[47:53] of the41,000 plus dogs and
[47:57] 12,500 plus cats reported by US
[47:58] labs last year likely originated
[48:01] in shelters or pounds but data
[48:03] from years past can provide some
[48:05] context. A comprehensive review
[48:07] of the question commissioned by
[48:10] NIH and published in2009 found
[48:12] random source dog and cat use to
[48:15] be small and declining even then
[48:16] with Classy dealers
[48:19] accounting for about4% of dogs
[48:21] and a little over 1% of cats
[48:23] used in research between2008 and
[48:26] sorry2007 and2008.
[48:31] even without contemporary
[48:33] findings the overall trend
[48:35] points clearly in one direction
[48:37] dog and cat use has been falling
[48:39] for years and that decline has
[48:41] been pronounced even over the
[48:44] last decadetween2014 and2025
[48:46] reported dog and cat use
[48:49] declined by over40% and we can
[48:50] expect random sourcing to have
[48:51] fallen at least as steeply
[48:55] Critically these declines are
[48:56] attributable to deliberate
[48:59] choices by Congress, by federal
[49:01] agencies and by research
[49:02] institutions themselves.
[49:05] one of the most important
[49:07] federal developments concerns
[49:08] the Class B dealers who
[49:10] historically moved shelter
[49:10] animals into laboratories.
[49:14] Oklahoma has a direct connection
[49:16] to that story and in fact local
[49:18] Oklahoma activity heavily
[49:18] influenced federal activity.
[49:22] In2003, a black hound dog named
[49:24] Buck was seized in Oklahoma from
[49:27] alass B dealer. he had heartworm
[49:28] disease and other untreated
[49:29] ailments and he died of internal
[49:31] hemorrhaging months later while
[49:32] in foster care
[49:35] Buck's case became a rallying
[49:37] point in the congressional
[49:39] debate overlass B dealer reform.
[49:41] so much so that advocates and
[49:43] sponsors began calling the
[49:44] federal pet safety and
[49:46] Protection Act which sought to
[49:49] barlassy dealers from selling
[49:50] random source dogs and cats to
[49:50] labsox bill
[49:55] Congress ultimately took action
[49:56] though through the
[49:57] appropriations process.ginning
[50:00] in fiscal year2016 Congress
[50:02] attached an annual rider to the
[50:03] agricultural appropriations bill
[50:06] barring USDA from spending funds
[50:09] to license or relicenselassy
[50:10] dealers who sell dogs and cats
[50:10] for research.
[50:14] after years of need renewals to
[50:15] stay in effect, Congress made it
[50:18] permanent in December2022.
[50:21] Section733 of the consolidated
[50:23] appropriations Act of2023
[50:25] provides that in that fiscal
[50:27] year and thereafter and
[50:29] notwithstanding any other
[50:31] provision of law, no funds may
[50:33] be used to issue or renew animal
[50:35] welfare actct licenses tolass B
[50:36] dealers who sell dogs or cats
[50:37] for research.
[50:39] experimentation
[50:40] testing
[50:41] or teaching
[50:45] that language conveys a
[50:47] permanent standing law one that
[50:48] no longer requires requires
[50:49] annual renewal
[50:52] Congress didn't reach that
[50:55] conclusion isolation NIH the
[50:56] world's largest funder of
[50:58] biomedical research had already
[50:59] barred its extramural grant
[51:01] funds from being used to acquire
[51:03] cats fromlass B dealers
[51:05] beginning in October of2012 and
[51:06] dogs beginning in October2014.
[51:11] Congress'lab funding prohibition
[51:13] sits within a much broader
[51:15] federal shift, one that has
[51:16] accelerated sharply over the
[51:16] past two years
[51:21] In April of2025, FDA announced
[51:23] it would begin phasing out
[51:24] mandatory animal testing
[51:26] requirements for certain new
[51:27] drug applications starting with
[51:30] monoclonal antibody therapies
[51:31] that built on the FDA
[51:34] modernization Act2.0 of2022
[51:36] which repealed a many decades
[51:38] old requirement that new drugs
[51:41] be tested on animals. it's
[51:42] successor the FdaA modernization
[51:45] Act 3.0 passed the US house this
[51:47] July after the senate passed
[51:48] identical language with
[51:50] dissent in december in both
[51:51] chambers it drew essentially no
[51:52] opposition
[51:57] also in april2025 NIH announced
[51:59] an initiative to reduce animal
[52:01] use in NIHf funded research and
[52:03] prioritize human based models
[52:05] citing both advances in
[52:07] technology and failures of
[52:09] animal data to predict human
[52:11] outcomes. NIH established a new
[52:13] office to develop and validate
[52:16] nonanimal methods committed $150
[52:17] million to humanbased approaches
[52:20] and has said it will no longer
[52:22] issue new funding opportunities
[52:22] focused exclusively on
[52:24] animal models of human disease
[52:29] In November of2025, the Centers
[52:30] for Disease Control and
[52:32] Prevention phased out all of its
[52:34] nonhuman primate research and is
[52:35] seeking to send the survivors to
[52:36] sanctuary.
[52:38] and the environmental protection
[52:39] agency has committed to
[52:41] eliminating mammalian animal
[52:45] testing by2035. It expanded its
[52:47] list of approved nonanimal test
[52:49] methods this past June and just
[52:51] last month announced two further
[52:53] advances that let reviewers
[52:55] assess inhalation and oral risks
[52:57] using human tissue models and
[52:59] calculations rather than new
[53:00] animal studies.
[53:04] Alongside that general shift,
[53:06] federal lawmakers have turned
[53:08] specifically to dogs and cats
[53:10] and notably they have done it
[53:13] across party lines. This June
[53:14] the US house passed two
[53:15] amendments to the fiscal
[53:17] year2027 agriculture FdaA
[53:19] appropriations bill one
[53:22] prohibiting funding for painful
[53:23] experiments on dogs and cats.
[53:26] The otherboring taxpayer dollars
[53:27] from being used to require dog
[53:28] testing through FDA.
[53:32] Other pending2027 bills carry
[53:34] the same direction of travel.
[53:35] The house appropriations
[53:38] subcommittee advanced its NIH
[53:40] bill with language defunding dog
[53:40] and cat testing
[53:43] and the EPA bill cuts funding
[53:44] for dog testing
[53:47] the veterans affairs bill
[53:48] approved unanimously in
[53:50] committee would require the VA
[53:52] to justify to Congress any
[53:53] research involving dogs, cats or
[53:54] primates.
[53:57] Individual legislators have gone
[54:00] further. Representative Nancy
[54:01] Mace has introduced the
[54:02] preventing animal abuse and
[54:05] waste actct barring NIH from
[54:07] conducting or funding research
[54:09] that causes significant pain or
[54:10] distress to dogs and cats
[54:12] andpresentative Nick Langworthy
[54:13] has voiced his intent to
[54:15] introduce legislation banning
[54:17] taxpayerfundded breeding of dogs
[54:18] for laboratory research.
[54:23] what's driving this isn't only
[54:24] science though there is a
[54:25] growing acknowledgement that
[54:27] nonhuman animals cannot act as
[54:29] predictive standins for humans
[54:32] it's also a broadening judgment
[54:33] across the political spectrum
[54:35] that experimenting on animals
[54:37] raises complex ethical issues.
[54:39] Gallup has asked Americans the
[54:41] same question every year
[54:43] since2001.hether medical testing
[54:45] on animals is morally
[54:48] acceptable. In200165% said it
[54:48] was.
[54:53] this may only45% did the lowest
[54:55] figure Gallup has recorded in25
[54:56] years of asking the question
[54:59] and that shift has not come from
[55:00] one side of the aisle
[55:03] of the issuesallup tracks animal
[55:05] testing is among the closest
[55:07] points of agreement betweenubs
[55:09] and Democrats. In recent
[55:11] yearsuban acceptance has fallen
[55:13] faster than democratic
[55:15] acceptance closing what used to
[55:16] be a wide gap
[55:20] and in factubs are currently
[55:21] leading reform efforts.
[55:23] Representative Mace has stated
[55:25] that dogs and cats aren't tools
[55:27] for research but rather our
[55:29] companions and our family
[55:31] Representative nicole melitaki
[55:33] has said that companion animals
[55:35] are members of our families and
[55:36] that taxpayers shouldn't be
[55:37] forced to pay for
[55:39] experimentation on them.
[55:41] SenatorRandd Paul has condemned
[55:43] dog experimentation as
[55:44] unnecessary and torturous.
[55:46] Representative Langworthy has
[55:46] characterized the killing
[55:50] of healthy dogs for science as
[55:52] barbaric, cruel and unnecessary.
[55:55] Senator Joni Ernst has said that
[55:57] dog testing has no place in our
[55:58] government, much less on the
[55:58] taxpayer's dime.
[56:01] Opposition to animal
[56:03] experimentation now also extends
[56:05] into the federal agencies
[56:06] themselves. former FdaA
[56:07] commissioner doctorctor Marty
[56:09] Mcerry at a federal workshop on
[56:11] reducing animal testing gave
[56:13] three reasons to move to
[56:15] nonanimal methods faster cures,
[56:19] lower costs and most importantly
[56:20] in his framing that they are
[56:21] more humane and ethical.
[56:25] for a long time the answer to
[56:26] these types of objections
[56:27] without that there is no other
[56:29] way that however troubling the
[56:30] practice science required it
[56:33] that assertion is becoming less
[56:35] and less colorable as
[56:36] alternatives to animal research
[56:37] gain traction.
[56:40] methods drawing federal
[56:42] investment are now increasingly
[56:44] human based organoids grown from
[56:47] human cells organ on the chip
[56:49] systems that reprodu reproduce
[56:51] human tissue behavior and
[56:52] computational models that
[56:54] simulate human biology and drug
[56:56] response. NIH director Jay
[56:57] Bhattacharya has said these
[56:59] technologies have improved
[57:01] dramatically in recent years and
[57:03] that NIH intends to steer
[57:05] biomedical research in that
[57:07] direction. The agency's stated
[57:08] rationale is straightforward
[57:10] iff ence s between animals and
[57:12] humans limit how well animal
[57:12] data translate to humans.
[57:16] notably these methods are not
[57:18] being adopted as a concession to
[57:20] animal welfare but because they
[57:21] better serve the underlying
[57:22] purposes of the research itself.
[57:27] ga in s t this backdrop,
[57:29] Oklahoma finds itself as the
[57:31] only state in the country with a
[57:33] mandatory pound seizure law that
[57:35] contemplates companion dogs and
[57:36] cats being used as experimental
[57:37] subjects
[57:40] this means that Oklahoma isn't
[57:41] just a state that allows pound
[57:43] seizure. it's the last state
[57:45] whose law compels it and it has
[57:47] held the status since at
[57:51] least2010 when Utah until then
[57:52] one of the last states with a
[57:53] similar law repealed its own
[57:54] pound seizure mandate.
[57:57] Oklahoma has retained its
[57:59] mandatory pound seizure law even
[58:01] as its own flagship veterinary
[58:03] program abandoned dealer source
[58:05] dogs and terminal teaching labs
[58:06] years ago on its own initiative
[58:10] Oklahoma State University used
[58:11] to obtain dogs from dealers and
[58:12] kill them after students
[58:13] practice surgery on them
[58:17] In2010 it reversed coursestead
[58:19] of killing animals in teaching
[58:21] labs the university partnered
[58:22] with animal shelters. The
[58:24] shelters would supply animals on
[58:25] whom students would perform spay
[58:27] and neuter surgeries and then
[58:28] the animals would return to the
[58:30] shelters for adoption. The
[58:31] university's president called
[58:33] this transition a winwin one
[58:35] that gave students the training
[58:37] they needed addressed animal
[58:38] welfare concerns and served the
[58:38] local community
[58:44] Since2012 licensing under
[58:45] Oklahoma statute has been the
[58:47] responsibility of the Oklahoma
[58:49] department of agriculture and as
[58:51] we heard the department has not
[58:53] issued a single license under
[58:55] this law in the nearly four
[58:57] years since meaning that while
[58:59] Oklahoma bears the undesirable
[59:01] distinction of being the only
[59:02] state in the country to mandate
[59:05] the roundly condemned practice
[59:06] of pound seizure, there's no
[59:07] record of any Oklahoma
[59:08] institution using it.
[59:11] so this is where the national
[59:11] picture and Oklahoma meet
[59:16] nationwide laboratory use of
[59:18] dogs and cats has fallen more
[59:18] than40% in a decade.
[59:23] Congress has permanently
[59:25] defunded the dealer system that
[59:26] supplied shelter animals to
[59:26] laboratories
[59:31] federal agencies are moving
[59:32] toward humanbased ethical
[59:35] science and members of both
[59:36] political parties are working to
[59:37] strip funding from dog and cat
[59:38] experimentation specifically
[59:43] one of Oklahoma's own flagship
[59:45] institutions has voluntarily and
[59:46] successfully adhered to a model
[59:48] that partners with shelters to
[59:49] treat and send animals home
[59:53] and no Oklahoma research
[59:54] facility has been issued a
[59:55] license to engage and pound
[59:56] seizure in well over a decade.
[1:00:00] Every institution with a direct
[1:00:01] stake has moved away from
[1:00:02] sourcing animals this way
[1:00:05] the only thing that hasn't is a
[1:00:06] state statute itself
[1:00:09] thank you so much for your time
[1:00:10] and consideration.
[1:00:15] thank you so much. I know we
[1:00:17] have a couple of questions so I
[1:00:20] hope you can hear us can thank
[1:00:21] yousenator senatorhamilton
[1:00:26] thank you senatorice all allow I
[1:00:27] think Senator Goodwin has a
[1:00:28] question who will allow
[1:00:30] yes ma'am that's all right you
[1:00:31] go right ahead
[1:00:35] thank you thank you for your
[1:00:37] presentation and I absolutely
[1:00:41] understand are your
[1:00:43] concern as we are looking at
[1:00:45] some antiquated or archaic laws
[1:00:47] on the books I want to let you
[1:00:49] know that when you mention
[1:00:51] thatubs are leading the way I
[1:00:53] know theubs and Democrats are
[1:00:55] concerned about this issue. I'm
[1:00:57] particularly offended though
[1:00:59] when you use Nancy Mace as
[1:01:02] someone who talks about pets or
[1:01:02] family when she
[1:01:05] has made some very egregious
[1:01:07] statements in Congress as
[1:01:09] relates to Muslims as relates to
[1:01:11] Africanericans so I wanted to
[1:01:13] know as she sees pets as being
[1:01:15] family I hope that we'd all be
[1:01:16] able to understand that we're
[1:01:19] all family and and in America
[1:01:21] and I was just going to say that
[1:01:23] particular you outline that
[1:01:25] outlier for Nancy Ma and some
[1:01:27] others
[1:01:29] I just wouldn't agree with that
[1:01:31] using her as a a great example
[1:01:32] to talk about who was family
[1:01:38] apologies Senator Goodwin for
[1:01:39] any offense we were merely
[1:01:41] attempting to demonstrate that
[1:01:43] this is a bipartisan issue and
[1:01:45] these folks who we've
[1:01:47] highlighted have been outspoken
[1:01:48] on on this particular issue
[1:01:49] which it was my understanding is
[1:01:50] the subject of today's study
[1:01:57] thank you thank you mesopus for
[1:02:00] your presentation my question
[1:02:03] was regarding the and I
[1:02:05] forget the number of the slide
[1:02:07] but it was regarding the
[1:02:11] NIH to expand humanbased
[1:02:12] models and then a couple slides
[1:02:15] later you talk about the labrown
[1:02:17] organoids. I wonder if you could
[1:02:20] expand on the source of the
[1:02:21] human cells that we're using for
[1:02:22] the lab grown organoids please.
[1:02:25] yes
[1:02:29] Chairhamilton my understanding
[1:02:30] is that these cell lines are
[1:02:32] procured in different ways
[1:02:33] depending on the technology
[1:02:35] being used or the purveyor of
[1:02:36] the technology but there is a
[1:02:37] large discussion around ethical
[1:02:39] sourcing and many of these cells
[1:02:41] are procured from donors so
[1:02:43] human donors who are either
[1:02:45] providing theirs cells or coming
[1:02:47] from organ donations or other
[1:02:49] sources this is a very live
[1:02:51] conversation and I think that
[1:02:53] that is an important part of the
[1:02:54] discussion that's happening
[1:02:55] again intending to supplant our
[1:02:56] current system
[1:02:58] with an ethical one based on
[1:03:00] consent two items that are very
[1:03:01] live criticisms of the current
[1:03:02] animal research testing
[1:03:03] paradigm.
[1:03:10] OK Miss Lindsay thank you so
[1:03:11] much again for your presentation
[1:03:13] and if you don't mind sticking
[1:03:14] around just in case we have some
[1:03:17] more questions towards the end
[1:03:18] and we're nearing towards the
[1:03:19] end right now so thank you
[1:03:20] kindly. I appreciate you again
[1:03:21] for joining us virtually.
[1:03:23] Thank you Senatorice thank you
[1:03:24] for having us.
[1:03:29] and lastly we want to welcome
[1:03:31] back Miss Shannon Keith she's
[1:03:32] the president and founder of
[1:03:34] beagle Freedom Project and she's
[1:03:35] going to give us a case study,
[1:03:37] Freedom Fields and a solution to
[1:03:39] addressing the pound seizure
[1:03:40] that we are experiencing here in
[1:03:40] Oklahoma.
[1:03:45] thank you so much I'm back
[1:03:49] my Poweroint oh thank you so
[1:03:50] much
[1:03:52] awesome right
[1:03:57] I'm gonna just quickly breeze
[1:04:00] through a Poweroint many of
[1:04:01] the points that I make here were
[1:04:03] already made so I'll just sort
[1:04:05] of emphasize them and I'm going
[1:04:09] to end on a video that we made
[1:04:11] about our organization why we're
[1:04:13] here what we're doing here in
[1:04:16] Nowata, Oklahoma and about
[1:04:17] our beautiful pound seizure
[1:04:20] survivor Grace who is on our
[1:04:22] board over there who now lives
[1:04:23] in Nowada at Freedom Fields
[1:04:25] right
[1:04:32] ok as we've heard,
[1:04:33] the problem
[1:04:38] it's hard to read OK. Oklahoma
[1:04:39] law requires public animal
[1:04:41] shelters to surrender animals to
[1:04:43] licensed research facilities
[1:04:44] upon request.
[1:04:47] a practice known as mandatory
[1:04:49] pound seizure animals who enter
[1:04:51] shelters seeking adoption or
[1:04:52] possible reunion with their
[1:04:54] families may instead be
[1:04:56] transferred to laboratories for
[1:04:58] experimentation as we've heard
[1:05:01] before from my colleagues this
[1:05:02] policy undermines public trust
[1:05:04] in shelters discourages adoption
[1:05:05] and puts puts vulnerable animals
[1:05:06] at risk.
[1:05:10] Againba is the last state to
[1:05:11] mandate this practice
[1:05:12] unfortunately
[1:05:16] the mandatory transfer Oklahoma
[1:05:17] law currently requires shelters
[1:05:19] to surrender unclaimed animals
[1:05:21] to licensed research facilities
[1:05:24] upon request. so there's no
[1:05:25] right of refusal. shelters can't
[1:05:27] say no. The animals are at risk
[1:05:30] and there's a severe community
[1:05:31] impact familiesmilies who
[1:05:33] surrender pets expecting humane
[1:05:35] outcomes are misled.unities lose
[1:05:37] confidence in their local animal
[1:05:39] shelters and an adoption
[1:05:40] programs.
[1:05:43] you know there are people who
[1:05:45] for whatever reason can't keep
[1:05:47] their animals and being a rescue
[1:05:49] organization we've seen this
[1:05:51] time again, time and again
[1:05:53] there are circumstances
[1:05:55] sometimes out of people's
[1:05:56] control or they just simply
[1:05:58] cannot keep their family member
[1:06:00] sometimes people are very ill
[1:06:03] or they pass away and they have
[1:06:05] to unfortunately relinquish
[1:06:07] their beloved family member to a
[1:06:09] shelter and to think that
[1:06:13] that animal who is so beloved by
[1:06:15] somebody who had just passed
[1:06:17] away is now at risk for going to
[1:06:19] an animal testing laboratory is
[1:06:21] terrifying to think about
[1:06:26] Animal testing this is something
[1:06:28] that my organizationiggofreedom
[1:06:31] Project specializes in fighting
[1:06:32] against we've been doing this
[1:06:35] for fif years. The animals we
[1:06:36] rescue come from all types of
[1:06:38] animal testing facilities,
[1:06:41] private and public we've rescued
[1:06:43] not only dogs and cats but all
[1:06:44] types of animals from animal
[1:06:45] testing facilities including
[1:06:49] horses alpacas goats pigs
[1:06:51] rabbits many of whom live at
[1:06:52] Freedomfieldelds here in
[1:06:53] Oklahoma but in terms of
[1:06:57] of dogs and and cats
[1:07:01] they're routinely used for
[1:07:02] toxicology and cardiovascular
[1:07:05] testing and that's particularly
[1:07:09] sad because when they're used
[1:07:11] for those types of tests they're
[1:07:13] typically going to die so
[1:07:13] they're not going to get out of
[1:07:15] the shelter alive. they're not
[1:07:16] going to get out of the
[1:07:17] laboratory alive sorry so if
[1:07:19] somebody is is looking for their
[1:07:20] beloved animal they're never
[1:07:20] going to find them
[1:07:24] in Oklahoma
[1:07:29] there are only4 reported
[1:07:31] facilities that actually use
[1:07:35] dogs and cats for testing of
[1:07:35] the last reported which was
[1:07:39] in2024 there were only 365 dogs
[1:07:44] and 160 1s being used one of
[1:07:46] them however had a noncompliance
[1:07:47] for not administering
[1:07:49] appropriate pain medication to
[1:07:51] the dogs during the procedure
[1:07:53] and I thought that was really
[1:07:54] important to point out and you
[1:07:55] think about your dog
[1:07:56] you know
[1:07:59] being in a shelter getting lost,
[1:08:03] going to a laboratory then being
[1:08:05] tested on that's really horrible
[1:08:06] to think about
[1:08:09] not being given the proper pain
[1:08:10] medication undergoing a
[1:08:12] procedure and this comes from
[1:08:15] USDA inspection reports so I
[1:08:16] I just
[1:08:19] I think it's important to bring
[1:08:20] this home. I think most of us in
[1:08:22] this room probably have a dog or
[1:08:26] a cat and can't imagine a
[1:08:26] situation where they get lost
[1:08:29] they end up in a shelter and
[1:08:31] then they end up in an animal
[1:08:32] testing facility and this
[1:08:32] happens to them
[1:08:39] so about a year ago when I
[1:08:41] discovered that Oklahoma was the
[1:08:43] lone state here and mandating
[1:08:45] pound seizure myself and my team
[1:08:46] at beaglefreedom Project started
[1:08:48] doing a lot of research. We
[1:08:51] spent months doing research on
[1:08:53] the issue here in Oklahoma and
[1:08:55] so we sent out lots and lots of
[1:08:57] public records requests and
[1:09:01] making a lot of calls and so we
[1:09:02] contacted and sent out public
[1:09:04] records requests at 39
[1:09:09] municipal shelters across25
[1:09:10] counties in Oklahoma
[1:09:12] of all 39 shelters
[1:09:16] none of them participate in
[1:09:16] paesthesia
[1:09:20] and this was all evidence based
[1:09:22] on the responses that we got
[1:09:23] from the public records requests
[1:09:26] So here's a map
[1:09:30] the24 counties it was24
[1:09:32] counties24 counties confirmed to
[1:09:33] not participate in count seizure
[1:09:36] and that includes the five most
[1:09:37] populated counties
[1:09:40] and these are of all the ones
[1:09:41] that we contacted we didn't
[1:09:43] contact all of them but these
[1:09:44] are all the ones that we did
[1:09:45] contact so I think that's
[1:09:47] critical we spoke to
[1:09:48] everybody
[1:09:50] at these municipal shelters
[1:09:54] and these are all of them listed
[1:09:55] here the the counties and the
[1:09:56] shelters
[1:09:59] again
[1:10:00] including the five most
[1:10:00] populated
[1:10:04] and ashirrri was saying shelter
[1:10:05] workers want to help
[1:10:07] and protect animals in their
[1:10:08] care
[1:10:10] so when we spoke to them
[1:10:13] the overwhelming response was
[1:10:15] what
[1:10:16] this goes on here
[1:10:21] that's horrible. we would never
[1:10:22] do that
[1:10:26] so not only were the individual
[1:10:27] employees who we spoke with
[1:10:28] horrified
[1:10:31] some didn't even know this
[1:10:34] existed but they would never
[1:10:37] participate in it in fact of
[1:10:39] many of the municipal shelters
[1:10:41] we spoke to several said that if
[1:10:42] there was a bill about this they
[1:10:45] would sign on and participate as
[1:10:46] a signatory to this
[1:10:51] a better way we know there's a
[1:10:53] better way you all heard about
[1:10:55] it today. I think my amazing
[1:10:56] colleagues for being a part of
[1:10:57] this and for all of you to
[1:10:59] listening about this and opening
[1:11:00] your hearts to this and your
[1:11:02] minds about this umm gonna end
[1:11:03] on a video and I'll stay here
[1:11:05] for any questions you might have
[1:11:08] about our facility and about
[1:11:10] Grace who's a survivor
[1:11:13] and again there's there's a
[1:11:14] better path forward
[1:11:18] I think that we just need to
[1:11:18] repeal this. Thank you.
[1:11:32] sorry
[1:11:33] oh
[1:11:38] for fif years theigoreedom
[1:11:40] project has rescued animals from
[1:11:40] laboratory testing
[1:11:47] and placed them with loving
[1:11:48] families
[1:11:52] we've passed legislation it's
[1:11:53] called the beaglereedom bill.
[1:11:55] The governor today proclaiming
[1:11:57] beagle freedom project day with
[1:11:59] scientists to help reduce the
[1:12:00] need for animal testing
[1:12:05] then two years agoiglereedom
[1:12:07] Project did something never done
[1:12:08] before
[1:12:15] approached an animal testing
[1:12:16] laboratory in Oklahoma with a
[1:12:17] bold request
[1:12:21] close your doors and we can give
[1:12:22] all your animals a loving home
[1:12:23] they agreed
[1:12:29] massive animal testing lab in
[1:12:31] Oklahoma has been shut down.
[1:12:32] Nothing like this has ever been
[1:12:34] done before where or anyone's
[1:12:35] been able to close down an
[1:12:37] animal testing facility and then
[1:12:39] turn the facility into a rehab
[1:12:40] and sanctuary.
[1:12:53] today that former testing
[1:12:54] facility is Freedom Fields
[1:12:59] a sanctuary in Nowata Oklahoma
[1:13:01] for animals rescued from
[1:13:02] laboratories.
[1:13:04] where animals were once tested
[1:13:07] they now heal
[1:13:26] animals like grace
[1:13:29] Grace was a victim of pound
[1:13:31] seizure taken from an animal
[1:13:33] shelter and sold to a testing
[1:13:34] laboratory
[1:13:37] there she endured harsh
[1:13:39] experiments today Grace lives at
[1:13:41] Freedom Fields waiting for her
[1:13:42] forever home
[1:13:49] every animal that arrives at
[1:13:50] Freedom Fields receives
[1:13:50] veterinary care
[1:13:54] and rehabilitation from the
[1:13:55] trauma they endured in the labs
[1:13:59] and when they're ready we place
[1:14:00] them with incredible families
[1:14:04] becausereedom Fields is more
[1:14:04] than a rescue
[1:14:07] it's a home
[1:14:09] a sanctuary
[1:14:13] proof that even after everything
[1:14:16] a new beginning is possible
[1:14:50] right. thank you so much. Are
[1:14:50] there any questions?
[1:14:52] from any many members yes
[1:14:56] thank you for the wonderful
[1:14:59] presentation to clarify is your
[1:15:01] policy recommendation a repeal
[1:15:03] to the existing statute and then
[1:15:06] also a ban on pound seizures
[1:15:07] it is
[1:15:09] thank you
[1:15:15] all right thank you and thank
[1:15:17] you to all of our presenters
[1:15:19] thank you again to our chair
[1:15:21] chairirhamilton to our committee
[1:15:23] members in attendance we had
[1:15:25] senator Logan and Senator
[1:15:27] Goodwin and to our house members
[1:15:29] for also showing up today. I
[1:15:31] appreciate your support and
[1:15:33] those in attendance and watching
[1:15:35] online Shannon Key thank you
[1:15:37] again with beaglereedom Project
[1:15:38] and the folks that you brought
[1:15:40] with you today Miss Cynthia
[1:15:41] Armstrong Oklahoma state
[1:15:42] director for human
[1:15:47] Humane world for animals and for
[1:15:48] Miss Tina Gunter our general
[1:15:51] counsel and director of Oklahoma
[1:15:52] department of agriculture, Food
[1:15:53] and forestry thank you
[1:15:58] to Miss Sherrieerrier with the
[1:16:00] executive director of the Tulsa
[1:16:02] Animal Services and deputyrector
[1:16:05] Colton thank you for traveling
[1:16:07] Missyndsay Soist, the header of
[1:16:08] programmes for rice for
[1:16:09] animalimals thank you
[1:16:11] andokklahoma animalimal
[1:16:13] coalition for their assistance
[1:16:14] and participation with this
[1:16:15] important topic in interim study
[1:16:18] as well as a senator kirt for
[1:16:21] being here as well and our
[1:16:23] senate staff thank you and to my
[1:16:24] executive
[1:16:25] assistant Miss Joyce. I could
[1:16:27] not have done this without you.
[1:16:28] thank you so so much
[1:16:33] this was a topic that I did not
[1:16:36] have familiarity with and I
[1:16:39] think it's very important for us
[1:16:40] to understand a lot of these
[1:16:43] topics. I spent time on city
[1:16:46] council the animal shelter was
[1:16:49] in my ward that I served on and
[1:16:51] I had no idea that there was a
[1:16:53] law on the books as as serving
[1:16:55] as an elected official that
[1:16:58] would hinder animals from being
[1:16:58] able to live
[1:17:03] a full life. I can't imagine my
[1:17:07] foxy brown who lived to be 18
[1:17:09] and my imi who lived to be six
[1:17:13] you know being lost and being
[1:17:16] given up to a shelter and me
[1:17:19] never seeing them again because
[1:17:22] they had to be given up for
[1:17:24] testing. I can't imagine now
[1:17:25] having a storm as a cat
[1:17:30] in my house that will be two
[1:17:32] in a couple of months. I can't
[1:17:35] imagine those things because I
[1:17:37] had no idea these things existed
[1:17:39] and I'm grateful that we were
[1:17:41] able to have the conversation
[1:17:43] because it sparked a different
[1:17:47] type of of way of informing the
[1:17:49] public about what is happening
[1:17:50] in the state of Oklahoma
[1:17:54] and when it was shared on social
[1:17:57] media the conversations began
[1:17:59] and as you heard the inquiries
[1:18:02] also started to pour in about
[1:18:05] who is asking for a license in
[1:18:06] Oklahoma. Nobody
[1:18:09] no one is asking for a license
[1:18:11] this has been on the books and I
[1:18:13] said I apologize 1957 when we
[1:18:14] began I couldn't read my own
[1:18:17] writing. it is 1951 but
[1:18:19] that's too long for us to have
[1:18:21] something such as this so we
[1:18:25] heard today public trust we
[1:18:27] heard we are here to help and
[1:18:28] protect the animals from harm
[1:18:31] we heard that there's a federal
[1:18:35] topic recently as June of this
[1:18:37] year about this bipartisan issue
[1:18:39] this is a bipartisan issue this
[1:18:41] is a urban and rural issue no
[1:18:43] right of refusal mandatory
[1:18:47] transfers I can't imagine how
[1:18:48] our folks who work for these
[1:18:51] different shelters feel that
[1:18:53] they're being forced to give up
[1:18:55] animals instead of us being able
[1:18:57] to help and protect so I ask
[1:18:58] that we will continue to look at
[1:18:58] how
[1:19:01] we can protect more nutmegs more
[1:19:04] maxes more graces more bucks
[1:19:07] ofokklahoma and more foxy
[1:19:09] browns. I love my foxy brown and
[1:19:11] I promise you I just can't
[1:19:16] imagine kids getting their dogs,
[1:19:17] not seeing their dogs again
[1:19:19] because they just ran off and
[1:19:20] you never see them because they
[1:19:22] are now being given up for
[1:19:23] testing. I just can't imagine
[1:19:26] that so again I appreciate the
[1:19:27] conversation and I thank
[1:19:28] everyone who was
[1:19:31] a part of this conversation
[1:19:33] today and look forward to us
[1:19:35] going further in depth with
[1:19:36] the next legislative session
[1:19:40] for us to look at repealing and
[1:19:41] doing something different with
[1:19:43] this this particular piece of
[1:19:45] legislation on the books and
[1:19:47] thank you again Mr Chair for
[1:19:48] allowing me to present this
[1:19:48] study
[1:19:51] you senator nicepresentative
[1:19:53] Heffner for bringing this
[1:19:57] over it's not always our job to
[1:19:58] agree with each other but it is
[1:19:59] always our job to listen to each
[1:20:01] other so thank you for an
[1:20:02] interesting and informative
[1:20:03] presentation and thank you to
[1:20:05] the esteemed colleagues from the
[1:20:09] house for being here today and
[1:20:10] I also want to echo your
[1:20:11] comments thank you to the senate
[1:20:13] staff at all levels nothing
[1:20:15] happens up here without them and
[1:20:17] they do great work for us and
[1:20:18] most importantly
[1:20:20] I'd like to thank God that we
[1:20:21] live in a country where we can
[1:20:24] hash out our differences civilly
[1:20:25] thank you with that we'll
[1:20:26] adjourn the meeting