[19:27] meeting started
[19:32] called the meeting to order. Now
[19:34] we currently do not have a
[19:35] quuorum
[19:38] so if we do reach that point we
[19:39] we're missing a couple senators
[19:42] if we get to that point and they
[19:44] come in and we'll go back to
[19:45] this and we'll we'll do it
[19:49] do it from there so we'll go to
[19:54] previous meetings or we're not
[19:55] going to do that because we have
[19:56] to wait to my fault
[19:56] OK
[20:00] yes that's what I'm trying to
[20:06] the next item on the agenda is a
[20:08] presentation on safety and
[20:10] collaboration and construction
[20:13] zones for fire and EMS vehicles
[20:14] by Scott Epllin
[20:18] the assistant deputy secretary
[20:18] of the west Virginia Department
[20:19] of Transportation.
[20:22] is he here today
[20:23] come on
[20:32] thank you for being here today
[20:34] you sir appreciate that the
[20:35] well we've got one still short
[20:37] if you raise your right hand on
[20:38] through the oath
[20:41] do you solemnly swear or affirm
[20:42] that the testimony you shall
[20:44] provide shall be the truth, the
[20:45] whole truth and nothing but the
[20:48] truth so help you go sir OK
[20:49] thank you and you may proceed
[20:56] don't mind stand by we'll go
[20:58] ahead and take care of this
[20:58] business and then we'll be
[21:02] back to you. OK we do have a
[21:03] quorum now
[21:04] so I'm gonna
[21:08] have the committee clerk will
[21:10] take a silent roll call Quorumm
[21:11] has been established
[21:13] and now we'll move to the
[21:14] approval of the previous
[21:16] meeting's minutes. I move that
[21:17] the previous meeting's minutes
[21:18] be approved.
[21:19] The
[21:24] question is on the motion that
[21:25] previous meeting's minutes be
[21:28] approved all those in favor say
[21:29] a
[21:29] those opposed say no
[21:33] in the opinion of the chair the
[21:34] ays have it. I declare the
[21:35] motion
[21:37] now
[21:40] august
[21:41] minutes to be approved
[21:44] because that was for January
[21:47] that was for January we have two
[21:47] sets
[21:50] well that was for January so now
[21:51] we'll do August
[21:53] those in favor say a
[21:54] right
[21:57] those opposed no
[22:01] this is my opinion that the ayes
[22:02] have it
[22:02] so
[22:04] and
[22:06] the meeting is ajjo not the
[22:07] meeting is adjourned sorry not
[22:08] yet.
[22:11] we'll go back to the regular
[22:13] business with the presentation
[22:14] Mr Epllin you have the floor
[22:16] thank you
[22:20] the committee posed three
[22:26] areas or questions that they
[22:28] would like for me to address and
[22:29] all of it surrounds work zone
[22:32] safety and the coordination with
[22:33] firing EMS services
[22:36] the first one was the
[22:38] elimination of emergency
[22:41] crossovers when we install
[22:41] protective barriers
[22:46] as the rule of thumb there's
[22:48] typically two types it's either
[22:51] a cable barrier or a concrete
[22:52] medium barrier. Both of these
[22:56] are installed for safety usually
[22:57] driven by crash data
[23:00] one thing to note with the
[23:01] concrete
[23:04] barrier that's when we're
[23:05] typically widening
[23:09] for example the interstate and
[23:10] we're adding in filling in the
[23:11] median
[23:14] constructing the wall and thus
[23:15] eliminating the shoulder
[23:20] so then that poses a huge safety
[23:21] risk to have some type of break
[23:22] in that concrete wall.
[23:26] it can be done some may be
[23:28] familiar we've installed those
[23:29] on the turnpike
[23:32] back to a lot of referred
[23:34] to it as nomageddon. it was a
[23:35] huge snowstorm
[23:40] like in the2000s and
[23:44] those are effective. that
[23:46] unfortunately left a lot of
[23:48] motorists stranded for days
[23:50] somewhat paralyzed our first
[23:52] responder community that was a
[23:54] very unique circumstances but in
[23:56] working with the first responder
[23:59] community, we did identify
[24:02] solution and to my knowledge
[24:03] we haven't really had those
[24:03] types of issues since.
[24:07] with the cable barrier it is a
[24:08] costeffective way and we're
[24:10] trying to prevent crossover
[24:13] accidents, typically lead to
[24:13] a headon impact
[24:19] unfortunately we're not an
[24:19] enforcement
[24:22] agency even though
[24:26] we put up signage says and still
[24:28] use these so it's not just the
[24:30] first responder community and
[24:32] even our own maintenance
[24:34] operations that utilize them
[24:36] motorists will ignore the
[24:38] signage and take advantage of
[24:40] these so that poses an
[24:40] additional safety concern
[24:46] when people talk or you get
[24:47] feedback from the
[24:51] first responder community a lot
[24:53] of the ones that get eliminated
[24:54] when these are installed were
[24:55] not authorized to begin with
[25:00] they just happened over time so
[25:01] to speak, whether it's
[25:03] maintenance operations former
[25:05] construction project a lot of
[25:06] the time the contractors when
[25:08] they're replacing a bridge for
[25:09] an example we'll have something
[25:09] there and
[25:12] unfortunately just never went
[25:13] away.
[25:14] there are
[25:18] directives established
[25:22] when we're designing these and
[25:23] the design phase that we take
[25:25] that into account. a lot of it
[25:26] boils down to
[25:30] the safe distance between
[25:32] interchanges but also the
[25:33] roadway geometry comes into
[25:33] play.
[25:37] In fact, back in the old days
[25:38] and you've probably seen him
[25:39] yourself, it was just a gravel
[25:41] dip through the median and I've
[25:43] seen first responder vehicles be
[25:43] stranded there
[25:46] they just were not constructed
[25:47] for that
[25:51] no ther question that was posed
[25:51] was
[25:57] the boxes and emergency vehicles
[25:57] that change the signal lights.
[26:01] What that is it's an optical
[26:01] emitter
[26:05] and if the signalized
[26:07] intersection has up todate
[26:08] technology or has that
[26:10] technology and what we refer to
[26:11] as the cabinet
[26:14] you can install an optical
[26:16] emitter on the responding fire
[26:19] engine or ambulance that a lot
[26:22] of site does send a signal to
[26:23] that intersection and we'll
[26:26] instigate the change to where
[26:27] they're catching green lights.
[26:30] now when you get posed with the
[26:31] questions
[26:34] you know why can't we put these
[26:36] in all emergency vehicles. We do
[26:39] not regulate that typically when
[26:40] we install that technology in
[26:42] the intersection we give the
[26:43] responding
[26:44] typically firehouse
[26:46] we give them one
[26:50] they can get as many as
[26:51] possible. I would
[26:56] urge everybody to use caution
[26:57] that there's a lot of room for
[26:57] abuse with those
[27:01] it's almost the user's
[27:04] discretion is it a true
[27:07] emergency or emergency they deem
[27:09] it does disrupt the flow of
[27:10] traffic for everyone
[27:16] but we do not regulate or limit
[27:18] how many of those devices that
[27:19] the
[27:22] firehouse or the ambulance
[27:23] agency would utilize
[27:26] the other question that was
[27:27] posed was how can
[27:32] firing EMS communicate with
[27:35] flaggers and how can we develop
[27:36] a policy to
[27:37] implement that
[27:41] There are some challenges with
[27:41] that
[27:44] one we would want our
[27:45] flaggers to be concentrating on
[27:49] safely controlling the traffic
[27:49] through a work zone
[27:54] I'll share with you there are
[27:57] policies it's a design directive
[28:00] and when we develop a project,
[28:02] there's three level it's a
[28:04] transportation a TMP which is a
[28:06] transportation management plan.
[28:07] there's three levels
[28:10] level one being insignificant
[28:12] right up to a level3 being the
[28:14] most significant. A good example
[28:16] for that would be the Eugene
[28:18] Carter deck replacement project
[28:19] out here in the middle of
[28:19] Charleston
[28:22] That project is unique because
[28:23] that's the heavily traveled
[28:25] bridge in the state
[28:29] when we do that right from the
[28:32] conception or design we involve
[28:33] all stakeholders
[28:36] your first responder community,
[28:38] your business community even
[28:42] local hospitals other transit
[28:44] agencies that all stakeholders
[28:46] are identified and they are
[28:48] involved in every step of the
[28:49] way through the development of
[28:49] the project
[28:54] there's mandatory meetings so we
[28:56] get their feedback and some of
[28:57] the things that come up was
[28:57] uniquely
[29:00] how could they respond
[29:04] given any day there could be a
[29:06] change in traffic pattern even
[29:07] though part of this plan is
[29:09] public notification right down
[29:12] to aite of changing traffic
[29:12] patterns
[29:16] things happen during the
[29:17] sequence of construction
[29:21] on this as just as an example I
[29:22] think we added12
[29:24] Cctv cameras
[29:28] now obviously there may not be
[29:30] somebody at every station
[29:32] monitoring it so they're feeding
[29:33] into the 911 center
[29:37] first responder community that's
[29:38] how they chose to have that set
[29:39] up
[29:42] in an effort to give advanced
[29:46] notice. Now in contrast out in a
[29:48] rural setting could be a fewho
[29:49] pipe replacement project
[29:51] out on a rural county route
[29:55] the most effective thing
[29:55] there and I know
[30:00] many years ago, when I
[30:02] started I flagged traffic in
[30:04] most valuable tool there is the
[30:05] audible alarm of a siren.
[30:07] and when you hear that
[30:10] flagger and everybody they're
[30:11] working
[30:14] does everything possible to
[30:16] facilitate the efficient fast
[30:18] movement of that responding
[30:20] emergency vehicle through that
[30:21] work zone. those are typically
[30:22] small
[30:24] if nothing else and you just
[30:26] get everybody to stop if you had
[30:28] it down to one lane the
[30:30] responding emergency vehicle
[30:31] could easily navigate that
[30:36] and I touched on the the TNP
[30:38] because there was a question
[30:39] about a policy but it boils
[30:39] down
[30:44] to the level of the project or
[30:46] the significance of the project
[30:48] that's being constructed or
[30:49] maintained
[30:52] Now those were the three
[30:53] questions posed by the committee
[30:56] but I did agree to open it up
[30:58] to Q andA and try the field or
[31:01] address any additional
[31:01] concerns you may have.
[31:06] are there any questions from
[31:07] the committee?
[31:10] OK Mr Mallow
[31:13] or actually delegate Mallow
[31:17] thank you Mr chair thank you
[31:18] for being here great
[31:20] presentation. couple of
[31:23] questions. when you plan out a a
[31:24] highway do you plan out
[31:26] mandatory distances between the
[31:30] crossovers are they mandatory or
[31:31] do they just because you said
[31:33] they sometimes happen upon
[31:35] construction but is there not
[31:36] like every two miles or every3
[31:38] miles or whatever the number is
[31:42] unauthorized crossover for fire
[31:43] EMS and police
[31:43] good question
[31:47] Yes, according to the asto
[31:49] greenook or that's the design
[31:52] manual for all projects in all
[31:54] states. It's a a minimum of5
[31:55] miles
[31:58] so there is a standard there and
[31:59] we do take that into
[32:00] consideration when we're
[32:03] developing these plans that's
[32:04] why I was referring to you may
[32:05] have some existing ones
[32:08] before we come in and install
[32:09] the barrier system
[32:13] now they're blocked off it's
[32:14] probably because they did not
[32:18] meet the design criteria to be
[32:19] established in the first place.
[32:21] and the question that came from
[32:24] my fire department was that and
[32:26] where they go up79 just south of
[32:27] Morgantown
[32:29] if they lose that crossover, I
[32:32] think it's at exit143 they have
[32:34] to go up to where7968 meet to
[32:36] turn around to come back if
[32:37] they're they have to go
[32:38] northbound to get on the
[32:40] interstate, then they got to go
[32:42] to Morgantown and come back for
[32:44] a southbound fire or accident or
[32:45] whatever. so they're worried
[32:46] about response time. they're
[32:47] accustomed to using that
[32:49] authorized crossover there
[32:52] and we don't want to lose that
[32:54] because I think their biggest
[32:56] concern is like response time
[32:57] getting to the accident or
[32:57] getting to the fire
[33:02] ive miles seems a lot but that's
[33:03] just met I don't know
[33:07] yes and that's just we can
[33:10] obviously review each instance
[33:14] because we were partners in and
[33:16] we want to work hand in hand
[33:17] with them to address
[33:20] each and every situation. When I
[33:22] looked at the couple that were
[33:23] presented to me one
[33:24] unfortunately was removed due to
[33:27] the installation of the concrete
[33:28] wall in they expand into six
[33:31] lanes. The other one even though
[33:32] the cable is already installed
[33:34] it's still exists and is in use
[33:38] but I could see their fear
[33:40] and I will follow up and check
[33:41] with the local district office
[33:43] to make sure that particular
[33:44] locations addressed. thank you
[33:45] so much. thank you Mr Chair.
[33:48] senator Woodrum
[33:56] thank you Mr Chairman. You you
[33:58] mentioned that5 miles the the
[33:59] standard are there exceptions
[34:00] made for high oxidant areas
[34:06] obviouslybously there is room to
[34:08] review and we would perform have
[34:10] our traffic engineering
[34:11] department before a review but
[34:14] if the data is driving that, we
[34:16] would recognize that and make an
[34:18] exception but it still has to
[34:19] meet certain
[34:21] other thresholds for example the
[34:22] geometry
[34:26] to where we can do so safely
[34:28] because unfortunately it's not
[34:30] just the emergency vehicle
[34:31] community that takes advantage
[34:31] of those.
[34:34] even though we put there's
[34:36] proper signage you'll see it
[34:38] it's a no U-turn and authorized
[34:40] vehicles only signage there
[34:45] citizens still routinely
[34:45] utilize them
[34:48] but we can look at each and
[34:50] every case and review it and
[34:51] obviously make an exception
[34:54] if it's warranted.
[34:57] yeah I'm I'm on the 64 down near
[34:59] theandstone exit but both sides
[35:00] of that you've got a significant
[35:02] grade. it's not uncommon to have
[35:04] more than one accident at a time
[35:06] going on. Sometimes you may have
[35:08] three different accidents on on
[35:09] each side of that exit
[35:12] depending upon the weather
[35:13] and that's that's the reason I
[35:15] was asking our resources are
[35:16] already stretched thin without
[35:19] you know as he said me doing5
[35:21] miles to to make a loop to come
[35:23] back. we're typically
[35:26] we've got a volunteer fire
[35:26] department that's first
[35:28] responders but we have two other
[35:29] counties potentially that are
[35:30] trying to respond to that series
[35:33] of accidents as well. So it gets
[35:34] to be a lot to manage sometimes
[35:36] and I thought it was a way to
[35:37] make that easier on those high
[35:39] oxidant areas that would be be
[35:39] advisable.
[35:44] yes one thing we did discover
[35:46] I think it's worth noting years
[35:47] ago when a
[35:49] large scale incident or major
[35:52] accident does occur. the
[35:54] first few, experience these
[36:00] obstacles if you want to call it
[36:02] that. what happens is once
[36:04] everything gets shut down we
[36:06] bring in all of our first
[36:08] responders opposed through
[36:10] opposing traffic coming the
[36:11] other way to where they have a
[36:13] clear road right to the scene.
[36:14] We have felt that to be one of
[36:18] the most useful methods as far
[36:19] as saving time and resources
[36:23] doesn't always work but as a
[36:24] standard practice, the first
[36:26] community first responder
[36:28] community is very efficient and
[36:29] utilizing that technique.
[36:31] right thank thank you sir. Thank
[36:32] you Mr. Chairman.
[36:36] senior senator from the sixth
[36:42] Thank Mr Chaman thank you for
[36:44] being here Scott. Just while
[36:45] we're having these conversations
[36:46] I think about the four lanes
[36:49] it's been expanded to 6 lanes
[36:51] with the port wall in the middle
[36:51] and it just kind of makes it
[36:54] impossible to to get a crossover
[36:56] I think about other large
[36:58] metropolitan areas that have a 8
[36:59] and
[37:02] 10 lane highway you know there's
[37:03] no crossovers there are they I
[37:03] mean
[37:06] isn't that common in you know
[37:09] when you have like more than a
[37:10] four lane highway to not have
[37:11] the crossover
[37:16] correct especially in the more
[37:17] urbanized area you're
[37:19] interchange spacing it's gonna
[37:19] be much closer
[37:22] this really only comes into play
[37:23] in rural areas now
[37:28] where we have expanded to sixth
[37:30] lane you're taking away that
[37:32] shoulder that the emergency
[37:33] vehicle would use to decelerate
[37:36] and navigate that turn because
[37:38] it is a tight radius but it's
[37:39] not common in
[37:44] these multilane facilities to
[37:46] have emergency crossovers you
[37:48] mentioned the five miles is that
[37:50] selfimposed or is that aeder
[37:53] regulation or. That's acfR from
[37:54] the asshow greenook I believe I
[37:55] can
[37:58] follow up and verify that but
[38:00] I'm pretty sure that's where
[38:02] they got like a federaler
[38:03] mandated regulation
[38:05] guideline
[38:08] that's what would allow us a
[38:11] to be able to review each
[38:13] location independently.
[38:13] right thank youco thank you Mr
[38:14] Chairman.
[38:18] Any other questions
[38:22] I have one question
[38:26] you've mentioned something about
[38:29] something that was installed on
[38:30] the emergency vehicles that
[38:31] would
[38:34] would trigger the stoplights and
[38:35] you said that
[38:38] you felt like that at times was
[38:39] abused
[38:42] by some of the first responders
[38:44] is is that did I hear that right
[38:47] it'd say I would give caution
[38:48] that there is a lot of room for
[38:51] abuse to my knowledge it's not
[38:51] abused
[38:56] and and I'm saying we don't
[38:58] regulate I had a fire department
[38:59] once that wanted
[39:03] like 20 of them. I can't
[39:03] remember if this was years ago.
[39:05] we give one
[39:08] with the installation and then
[39:10] they are best suited that they
[39:13] know which engines or ambulances
[39:17] I don't to my knowledge it's not
[39:20] expanded to all the auxiliary
[39:21] vehicles they have
[39:22] but it
[39:26] for true emergencies and not out
[39:27] of convenience is what I'm
[39:28] trying to stress right and and I
[39:29] know
[39:31] back when I was
[39:32] a first responder
[39:35] it had to be
[39:40] a a a certain code you had to be
[39:41] running
[39:44] you know full code in order to
[39:46] get those services to you is
[39:47] that not the
[39:48] standard
[39:52] today it's only for a code3
[39:55] response so so it is so there is
[39:58] and and so I would think it
[39:59] would be hard to abuse if
[40:02] there is a standard out there to
[40:03] say you cannot
[40:04] utilize this
[40:08] piece of equipment unless you
[40:09] are running
[40:10] a code3
[40:16] Yes, and I can follow up on that
[40:19] where we don't enforce it, I
[40:20] don't know how the first
[40:22] responder community handles that
[40:26] I know in West Virginia for
[40:27] example, they're all optical
[40:28] line of sight
[40:34] in huge urbanized areas a lot
[40:36] of them are stationary and they
[40:38] utilize GPS and that's
[40:40] controlled through both the
[40:43] 911ent and the the station.
[40:45] but where it's just an opttacle
[40:47] that's on that vehicle there is
[40:47] an opportunity
[40:50] that it could be utilized and
[40:51] it's not
[40:54] I think some of them utilize
[40:56] it that they wire it in to where
[40:58] if they're not running for
[41:00] example lights and sirens, the
[41:01] optical emitter is not operable.
[41:06] so there are some methods you
[41:07] can utilize to minimize
[41:10] any potential malfunction so to
[41:11] speak.
[41:14] right but I think the just the
[41:16] you know to me it just appears
[41:19] that the there needs to be some
[41:21] accountability towards the
[41:22] first responders if they're
[41:23] abusing it like that
[41:24] because
[41:26] it it let's let's face it that's
[41:29] that's your that's a dangerous
[41:29] when you're running a code3
[41:34] you know it's it should be for
[41:35] those major
[41:36] emergencies
[41:41] because it does you know the the
[41:42] public will get used to the
[41:43] lights and siren
[41:45] if you're running it every time
[41:48] you go on a on a call so that's
[41:50] why we had a a standard that you
[41:51] could not well you could abuse
[41:52] it if you want but there should
[41:55] be accountability for those who
[41:56] you know that's that's for
[41:58] everyone's safety there because
[42:00] those are for those critical
[42:03] moments when emergency vehicle
[42:03] needs to get
[42:04] somewhere
[42:08] fast so I I would I would look
[42:09] at the
[42:11] the leadership of those
[42:13] agencies to
[42:15] hold them to their standard
[42:17] to fix that issue.
[42:21] yes sir in you're spot on what
[42:24] you do is you train the public
[42:26] to ignore it's very it's a
[42:28] parallel situation to our
[42:29] signage. when you look at
[42:30] safety and mobility and
[42:32] navigating through a work zone
[42:34] signage is critical. one of
[42:35] the
[42:38] big things is leaving up flagger
[42:39] signs overnight.
[42:42] that's very frustrating to us
[42:44] not only with our crews but all
[42:45] utilities. there's a lot of
[42:47] crews that utilize our roadways
[42:50] as work zones and what
[42:50] unfortunately what you're doing
[42:53] is training the public to ignore
[42:54] the signage you know it would be
[42:55] the same situation with
[43:00] a false alarm on utilizing an
[43:01] emitter it's like the boy who
[43:05] cried wolf you know you you you
[43:06] have all these things and then
[43:08] you find out well they were just
[43:10] there's no need for it so I
[43:11] appreciate are there any other
[43:11] questions
[43:13] sir
[43:21] a no unauthorized vehicles. Does
[43:22] it say there's a possibility of
[43:24] a fine and if so what is that
[43:25] amount?
[43:30] as far as the standard, there's
[43:31] nothing that lists the fine.
[43:32] there could have been something
[43:34] put up at some point and be a
[43:38] residual basically your your
[43:39] 9 dots on the placard
[43:43] along with the no Uturn and the
[43:43] authorized
[43:47] emergency vehicles only I think
[43:48] is the only two really signs
[43:52] that I heard your you made a
[43:54] great point that the motorist
[43:55] using that could be a safety
[43:57] hazard. So in order to keep
[43:59] those for our fire EMS and
[43:59] police
[44:02] could we maybe bring awareness
[44:05] level up with a fine and the
[44:05] potential of a fine
[44:10] I could definitely talk to our
[44:12] traffic engineering division and
[44:14] and report back to see if that
[44:16] needs further action. That'd be
[44:18] greatid. thank you so much.
[44:19] thank you Mr Chairman. Yes sir
[44:22] if there are no other questions
[44:23] we got one up
[44:27] it would be the senator from
[44:27] Upshurre
[44:30] thank you Mr Chairman and
[44:32] unfortunately I'm going to ask a
[44:33] question
[44:36] for clarification that's
[44:38] probably running through every
[44:39] member of this committee this
[44:39] morning
[44:43] you're not considering giving
[44:44] those to delegates and senators
[44:45] are you
[44:50] no sir unfortunately thank you
[44:51] that's never been addressed
[45:03] if there are no other questions
[45:06] I see none thank you so much
[45:07] I appreciate your
[45:10] your presentation Mr Epllin
[45:11] and
[45:14] you have nothing furthers are
[45:16] there any is there any other
[45:17] business before the committee?
[45:22] there being no further business
[45:23] before the committee. I
[45:24] recognize the cochair.
[45:28] all those in favor say aye all
[45:32] the all those opposed say no in
[45:34] the opinion of the chair the ays
[45:35] have it the meeting is adjourned
[45:35] to get you