1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,440 This is a continuation of the hearing of 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,600 uh the application of Kid Toledo 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,480 Development Group 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,120 of Torington, Connecticut to obtain a 5 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:15,519 special permit and or variance under the 6 00:00:15,519 --> 00:00:17,760 particular under the applicable sections 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,359 of the zoning bylaws to the town of 8 00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:22,080 Sunland for the purpose of constructing 9 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:25,680 a 9100 square foot retail building with 10 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,920 associate site improvements on the 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,840 premises of Ammerst. road route 116 tax 12 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,880 map 9 plot number 44 in the town of 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,399 Sunland. So this is the uh the fourth 14 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:46,709 continuence we've had on this. So 15 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:48,399 I suppose I should probably send you 16 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:51,280 guys the agenda 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,520 would help. Thank you. Can we use the 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,760 mics by chance? 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,440 I don't think the mics do any 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,280 amplification inside here. Uh 21 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000 I will try to speak up. 22 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,200 That's that's 23 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,910 pass it on to Stuart. Uh 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,159 that's something that my wife rarely 25 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:16,320 complains that I speak loudly enough, 26 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:19,380 but okay. Um 27 00:01:19,380 --> 00:01:21,920 [Applause] 28 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,360 okay. Uh 29 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,200 the first item on our my draft agenda 30 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,960 for today is a further discussion of an 31 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:40,479 item of a that uh 32 00:01:40,479 --> 00:01:45,360 both uh Ron Roblesque and Michael Pill 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,840 presented at the last hearing. It had to 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,560 do with the uh 35 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,479 driveway separation town bylaw and the 36 00:01:54,479 --> 00:02:00,000 argument that the uh that bylaw doesn't 37 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,320 apply in this case. And uh when it came 38 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,239 to us, I said I'm going to have to take 39 00:02:08,239 --> 00:02:10,239 some time and discuss with town council 40 00:02:10,239 --> 00:02:12,720 on this because it was kind of a matter 41 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,319 I was not familiar with. Um and uh 42 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:20,800 there's been some further developments 43 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:26,550 on that. Um 44 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,720 today it was it was actually this 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,949 morning. Uh 46 00:02:32,959 --> 00:02:38,879 I discovered and found the uh ANR 47 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:42,640 that uh created 48 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:47,670 the parcel 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,480 All right. Probably be best if I show 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:56,080 one. And I have copies of the ANR from 51 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,760 you from the planning board. And 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,120 if I could steal your easel, 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:10,630 I will put this up there. 54 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:16,390 Okay. 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,910 [Music] 56 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:23,519 Okay. the the argument uh that was 57 00:03:23,519 --> 00:03:25,200 presented 58 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,080 by uh the applicants was that the parcel 59 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,360 known as 99-4 60 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:40,560 uh predated the uh uh the the uh parking 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,920 area bylaw that was introduced in the 62 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,360 town of Sunland I think sometime in 1999 63 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,159 and the creation of this parcel predated 64 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:53,040 it And the argument was that uh because 65 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,840 of that the uh uh 66 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,319 that bylaw did not apply. The the 67 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:02,560 driveway location did not have to meet 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,280 our park our driveway bylaws, our 69 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,319 driving design bylaws. 70 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:09,840 Now, 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,720 uh, I noted 72 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,320 all along that the parcel 944 that they 73 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,199 were referring to 74 00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:25,199 was actually it shows here was the whole 75 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:29,280 thing. Now there was a parcel that 76 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:33,759 appeared uh at at about 2015 77 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:35,840 that is parcel 78 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:37,520 100 79 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,919 and 80 00:04:39,919 --> 00:04:43,110 uh 81 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,360 and there's and uh I did find an ANR. I 82 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,240 found it today. It was an ANR issued by 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,680 the planning board and it's all signed 84 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,720 off and dated. Oh my goodness. 85 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,919 January 14, 2014. 86 00:04:59,919 --> 00:05:04,720 Uh, and in this in this ANR, which uh 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,240 it's a the ANR is a term that means 88 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,320 approval not required. People can come 89 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,560 and cut up their parcels and make 90 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,520 changes to their parcels. And uh what 91 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:22,400 happened here in in January of of 2014 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,080 uh GB Jackson, who is the owner of that 93 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,280 property, the whole property, uh came in 94 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,400 and he presented a uh approval not 95 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,639 required that locked off this part of 96 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:39,670 994. 97 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,240 And it even says in the description, it 98 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,800 says this part, and they're referring to 99 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,320 in on this drawing as parcel A, it says 100 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,280 parcel A is a portion of 994 or 944 101 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,479 and it shows what the the area is and 102 00:05:58,479 --> 00:06:01,199 the frontage is. It also says the 103 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:03,360 remaining portal 104 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,919 uh remaining portion of the land of 944 105 00:06:07,919 --> 00:06:10,240 uh the remaining frontage has been 106 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,639 reduced to 48 ft or 480 ft and the 107 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:18,720 remaining area is down to 2.966. 108 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,000 So uh 109 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,199 and this was approved by the by the uh the planning board. All of them 110 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:29,520 signed off on the ANR. It's stated 111 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,199 11414. 112 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:32,720 Well, where was it recorded? The 113 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:33,919 recording was blank. 114 00:06:33,919 --> 00:06:36,639 The owner didn't record it. 115 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:37,440 That didn't happen. 116 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,160 Oh, that doesn't count. that is not that 117 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,479 uh I I discussed this matter with town 118 00:06:42,479 --> 00:06:46,639 council and it's uh Mike uh I I don't 119 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:48,720 know if you want to speak to that but 120 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:57,919 this is an ANR that created that and our position is that the the new 9944 121 00:06:57,919 --> 00:07:03,280 or 944 came into being in 2014 and is 122 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:05,840 therefore subject to that parking bylaw. 123 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:07,520 Uh Mike, do you want to elaborate on 124 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,520 that? 125 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:09,759 I 126 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:12,400 I'm happy to, Steve. And um just to give 127 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,039 a little context uh for the board and 128 00:07:15,039 --> 00:07:17,840 folks in the room, the genesis of this 129 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,880 issue comes from the provision of the 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,160 Sunderland zoning bylaw. And that's uh 131 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,280 in section 1253-1 132 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,160 which deals with driveway configuration 133 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,680 requirements uh when you're undergoing a 134 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,639 review by the zoning board of appeals. 135 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:39,199 Uh and those new uh requirements came 136 00:07:39,199 --> 00:07:41,680 into effect with an exemption. They said 137 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,400 that unless precluded by lot 138 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,039 configuration in existence on the date 139 00:07:47,039 --> 00:07:50,880 of adoption of this zoning bylaw. Now, 140 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,280 these driveway requirements were last 141 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,240 amended in 1999. 142 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,080 And so, if uh the lot configuration 143 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,360 existed prior to 1999, 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,879 uh it would not have to comply with 145 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:09,919 these requirements that came into effect 146 00:08:09,919 --> 00:08:13,280 later on. On the other hand, if the lot 147 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,879 configuration was changed after the 148 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:18,879 effective date of the bylaw, which is 149 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:20,560 1999, 150 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,680 then the any proposal would need to 151 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,879 comply with the requirements of the 152 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:30,160 Sunderland zoning bylaw specific to 153 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,000 driveway distances between entrances and 154 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,080 exits onto a state highway or a town 155 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,800 road improved under the chapter 90 156 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,880 program. 157 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,880 The question here legally is whether the 158 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,040 application and endorsement on the 159 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,560 approval not required plan from 2013 or 160 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:54,399 2014 and Steve correct me if I've got 161 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:59,600 the year wrong was effective to affect a 162 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,000 change in the lot configuration even 163 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,480 though that plan was never reported at 164 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,240 the registry of deeds. And while there 165 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,200 is no case law that is directly on 166 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,560 point, there is an uh an analogous case 167 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,360 as well as uh the statutory text of the 168 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,000 subdivision control law. Uh and that has 169 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,480 led us uh in previous cases as well as 170 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:27,600 this case to opine that the subdivision 171 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,959 plan is effective that it did change the 172 00:09:30,959 --> 00:09:33,519 lot configuration as of the date of the 173 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:35,920 endorsement of the plan even though it 174 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,080 wasn't recorded at the registry. 175 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,200 Therefore, the driveway separation 176 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,080 requirements in the bylaw apply. And 177 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,160 Steve, if it'd be helpful, I can explain 178 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:47,920 the analysis a little further on that or 179 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,200 I can pause for questions. 180 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,720 I cite the case. He's law is referenced 181 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,279 to authority and so your attorney has 182 00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:00,800 referenced statute and case and it would 183 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,560 be really nice if he would provide us 184 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,600 with the citation to both please. Well, 185 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,519 uh, 186 00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:08,640 otherwise he's got 187 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,600 Do you think I don't know if I want to 188 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,079 deliberate and argue this case in front 189 00:10:14,079 --> 00:10:16,399 of this this this particular hearing, 190 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,000 but is is that appropriate, Mike? 191 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,320 I I really take your your lead, Steve. 192 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,079 I'm I'm happy to go into some of the 193 00:10:24,079 --> 00:10:27,279 details. Now, I'm also happy to provide 194 00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:29,760 either to speak with uh the applicant 195 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,200 and their council offline and uh also 196 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,120 provide information in writing 197 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,120 and I'm happy to give you a citation in 198 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,440 the case that I can give you off the top 199 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,000 of my head that shows that your learned 200 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,120 council is in error the case. And may I 201 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,360 give you that case and and perhaps he 202 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:48,640 might want to look it up because it 203 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,959 appears he's not aware of it. I you know 204 00:10:50,959 --> 00:10:56,160 at at I think this is you know uh Mike 205 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,040 we got two Michaels thing. Uh Mike 206 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,880 you can call me Michael and Mike. How's 207 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,200 that? 208 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,240 Well uh Mike I I don't know. I I'm 209 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,560 tending to think that this could occupy 210 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,360 the whole hearing. Uh I I don't know if 211 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,839 this is better to be taken offline. I 212 00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:15,519 you know I mean and then you guys can 213 00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:17,600 you know take off the gloves and have at 214 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,150 it. Uh, 215 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,360 well, Steve, I think what I would say is I really defer to to you and the 216 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160 board and and if you have other uh other 217 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,079 items. So, if you think it would be 218 00:11:32,079 --> 00:11:34,480 helpful to, you know, hear the 219 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,079 conversation between um council for the 220 00:11:38,079 --> 00:11:39,600 applicant and myself, we can certainly 221 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,920 have that conversation now. Um but if 222 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,800 you have you know other elements of the 223 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,680 application to consider and process uh 224 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,000 you know your time may be better spent 225 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 doing that and myself uh and applicants 226 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,279 council can discuss these citations dig 227 00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:01,040 into them offline uh you know tomorrow 228 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,000 in the coming days. I I I I would say 229 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,279 that we have a lot of other I mean uh 230 00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:09,600 this is not like the final issue that's 231 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,519 before you know this this board as far 232 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:14,399 as uh other things that come into play 233 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:18,320 for the uh the special permit. Um we 234 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,639 have other items on our my proposed 235 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:31,120 draft agenda. Uh uh I don't know board what what do you think of it? Uh I know the board really I will say that 236 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,360 the board has not been in the many 237 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,519 discussions I've had with town council 238 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:39,760 and my discovery of the ANR and 239 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,360 uh they're not as familiar with the 240 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,360 nuances and the situ you know the 241 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,920 matters that are being discussed here. 242 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,279 Uh do I mean 243 00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:54,720 uh you know the our our c our town 244 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,200 council is is uh uh looking to us to 245 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,720 decide do we want to have them slug it. 246 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,399 I don't know if you're Michael I don't 247 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:08,160 know if you're prepared to uh site cases 248 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,079 or or whatever. I don't know if that's 249 00:13:10,079 --> 00:13:10,639 going to take 250 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:13,519 he's obviously prepared 251 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:14,399 to bill. 252 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:15,440 Okay. 253 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,639 He's obviously prepared. uh 254 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:20,480 this was something we just discovered 255 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,480 today. So I mean I don't know how much 256 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:29,279 this what is the impact of this this is one matter that involves 257 00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:32,399 whether we you know we can deny a 258 00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:35,040 special permit based on this if we if 259 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,720 our if our standing side stands but 260 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,990 there's a lot of butts to it. Um 261 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,320 yeah, you know, cuz there there was 262 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,240 other issues, Michael, uh Michael D, 263 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,360 that uh there are other issues of this 264 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,519 letter that we would like to address. 265 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:58,800 And you know, it's it's let's let's put 266 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,240 it this way. We're not going to be 267 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,320 making a decision whether to grant or 268 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,639 deny this special permit today. It's 269 00:14:04,639 --> 00:14:06,560 this is we get a lot of other things 270 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:11,440 that we want to go through. So, um, uh, 271 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,399 I'm thinking that it would our our time 272 00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:17,519 would best be suited that we you go 273 00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:20,240 through what I had to present today on 274 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,399 this and if there's arguments between, 275 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:27,120 you know, between the attorneys, let 276 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,639 them take it offline and, you know, and deal with it. I mean, does 277 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:34,000 how does how does the board feel about 278 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,680 that? I I would say my proposal would be 279 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,160 after that for them to like bring some 280 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,480 sort of summary to the next meeting. 281 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Well, that that would that would be the 282 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,680 thing that we would we would that that 283 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,160 would be my idea is that 284 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,680 you know this hearing is going to get 285 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,600 continued 286 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,279 uh for other matters. 287 00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:57,680 Why do we how do we know that yet? 288 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,399 Well, I I why why do you think 289 00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:03,040 otherwise? So, if I could respectfully 290 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,440 just address the board briefly just to 291 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,079 kind of reframe the discussion 292 00:15:08,079 --> 00:15:10,320 and you're you're Rob Levesque. Yes. 293 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,040 You're the 294 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,600 Yes. So, for the record and I don't know 295 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,360 if there's cameras now or there wasn't 296 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,399 before. 297 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:17,360 There's cameras somewhere. 298 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,880 So, we can speak into So, uh good 299 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,399 evening. For the record, I'm Rob Le from 300 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:25,920 Marc Associates. Um to clarify, an ANR 301 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,160 is an approval not required plan that 302 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,240 gets endorsed by the planning board. If 303 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,639 it doesn't get recorded, there is no new 304 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:35,279 property lines that are put on record. I 305 00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:37,199 think Mr. Pill has case law to that 306 00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:39,360 effect. We are here to present the 307 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,000 entirety of the project. We have no 308 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,199 question, no concern that these property 309 00:15:45,199 --> 00:15:47,360 lines, although contemplated and 310 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,720 although approved for recording by the 311 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,279 planning board, never got recorded. And I think by admission by of town 312 00:15:55,279 --> 00:15:57,920 council as well as by uh the chair, it 313 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,680 sounds like those never got recorded. 314 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,279 Whose respons can I ask whose 315 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:04,800 responsibility is it to record an ANR? 316 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,199 It would be Mr. Bill that 317 00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:10,720 it's in fact your council has completely 318 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,040 missed the mark in terms of real estate 319 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,160 law. The issue is not just the 320 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,279 recording. The issue is that to create a 321 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:22,160 separate lot requires an instrument. And 322 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,000 if he's not willing to sight authority, 323 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,639 I am. Patel versus No, let me give him 324 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:28,959 the citation, please, because I'm ready 325 00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:31,279 to put my cards on the table even if he 326 00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:32,959 is not. Patel 327 00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:35,199 Hold on, hold on, Michael. I'm going to 328 00:16:35,199 --> 00:16:38,160 interrupt you. I'm going to interrupt you right 329 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,000 there cuz you're making an allegation 330 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,800 about my state of mind that you you 331 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,360 don't know. I'm I'm happy to discuss the 332 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,519 details. And I also welcome any 333 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:50,079 additional new information because uh 334 00:16:50,079 --> 00:16:52,240 none of us has a monopoly on every case 335 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,839 that is out there. 336 00:16:53,839 --> 00:16:54,959 All I can tell you 337 00:16:54,959 --> 00:16:56,639 and he should stop interrupting me. 338 00:16:56,639 --> 00:16:58,480 Please 339 00:16:58,480 --> 00:16:58,800 go ahead. 340 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,910 Mike, 341 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,959 so attorney Bill is about to 342 00:17:06,959 --> 00:17:09,360 versus planning board of North Andover. 343 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:10,959 It's a published case in the Mass 344 00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:13,520 Appallet Reports, Massappellet Court 345 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,559 Reports. I believe it's 1989. The point 346 00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:19,760 of that case is that regardless of 347 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,199 whether the plan is recorded, a plan 348 00:17:23,199 --> 00:17:26,160 cannot create a lot. That requires 349 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,960 what's called an instrument, a D. In 350 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,039 Patel versus Planning Board of North 351 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:35,280 Andover, a subdivision plan was recorded 352 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,919 showing crucial easements for the 353 00:17:37,919 --> 00:17:41,120 subdivision. There was never a deed from 354 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,080 the developer to the municipality 355 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,320 creating the easements. What the court 356 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,760 pointed out was the intent was clear, 357 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,480 but the formalities required by 358 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,799 centuries of Massachusetts real estate 359 00:17:54,799 --> 00:18:00,240 law were not observed. So even if it was 360 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,559 recorded, and I've seen this happen 361 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:05,440 before, the recording of a plan does not 362 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,880 create a lot. There had to be a deed 363 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,720 that separated these parcels ownership. 364 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,200 That's what created a second lot. Now, 365 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,200 as as you probably know, I'm the author 366 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:20,880 of a multi- volume treatise on 367 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,360 Massachusetts real estate law. It's on 368 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,080 West Law 28, Mass Practice. I'm sure 369 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,400 your distinguished council may not have 370 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,720 done a lot of real estate conveyancing 371 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,799 because this goes back centuries and the 372 00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:38,000 deed is the essential element. Without a 373 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,039 deed, there is no separate lot. Now, if 374 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:43,760 he's willing to do as I've done and cite 375 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,080 cases and not shove us off somewhere 376 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,200 else, then we could have a discussion 377 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,600 that might help everyone because what 378 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,240 he's done is he's thrown down a gauntlet 379 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,400 and he's not going to change his 380 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,280 position, 381 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,080 you know, 382 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,520 and that's this is exactly the weeds I 383 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,360 don't think the zoning board needs to 384 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:04,559 get into. 385 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:04,960 Okay. 386 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,120 Uh if there was 387 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,360 if the lots weren't separated before 99, 388 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,360 then the driveway governs the driveway 389 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,480 bylaw governance. Is that correct? 390 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,600 Say that again. If the 391 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,799 those lots weren't separated before 99. 392 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,400 No, they're saying the uh the 99 is is 393 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,480 when the existence of the bylaw came 394 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:34,000 into place. the the the n the whole 99 395 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,480 for four for or 944 396 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,320 was was created back in what late 80s 397 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,120 early 90s? 398 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,360 No, I mean the uh when was the bylaw 399 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:44,960 changed? 400 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,559 November of 99. 401 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:49,840 Of November of 99. So this lot wasn't 402 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,000 separated before then? 403 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,120 No, it was not. 404 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:54,640 The person is saying that. Right. 405 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,360 Right. So, doesn't that driveway 406 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:03,510 thing govern regardless? 407 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,679 I I some I'm missing the point of your 408 00:20:05,679 --> 00:20:07,600 question. Uh 409 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,110 yeah, 410 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,590 because 411 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,080 yeah, this this separation occurred in 412 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,240 2014. 413 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,240 So hypothetically through the chair if 414 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,240 the if the if the division of land did 415 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,559 happen by deed let's just say attorney 416 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:30,559 pill is accurate not saying which 417 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,840 attorney is accurate then arguably the 418 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:39,039 driveway requirements were one but 419 00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:41,840 assuming that that ANR plan that never 420 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,240 got recorded that did not have a deed 421 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,159 associated with it did not convey any 422 00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:47,919 land 423 00:20:47,919 --> 00:20:49,360 is 424 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,080 So it never happened. Then the driveway 425 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,640 bylaw does not apply. Regardless of that 426 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,679 driveway bylaw, we actually are coming 427 00:20:57,679 --> 00:21:00,559 in directly across from the curb cuts as 428 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:04,159 required under the bylaw. So 429 00:21:04,159 --> 00:21:06,400 you're talking about the one onto 116. 430 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,760 Yeah, we're right across from the one 431 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:08,960 across the street and we're right across 432 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,919 the one from Clark Mountain Road. So 433 00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:13,360 what we'd love to do is let the 434 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:14,880 attorneys duke it out. They get they 435 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,159 make a lot more money than the rest of 436 00:21:16,159 --> 00:21:18,240 us. Um, and maybe we can move forward 437 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,559 with the rest of the agenda. 438 00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:24,799 Uh, that would be my preference. Uh, let 439 00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:25,360 you guys, 440 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:26,080 yeah, 441 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,520 have your fun that you enjoy. Uh but I 442 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:35,120 uh I I don't think really the the the zoning board may even not fully 443 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:36,880 understand and it we don't have to 444 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,600 understand the nuances of this other 445 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,559 than 446 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:42,720 what is the you know the determination 447 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,080 of this of this lot and does this bylaw 448 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,640 apply and our our our my contention 449 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,880 right now is that it does but we'll 450 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:51,679 leave it to 451 00:21:51,679 --> 00:21:53,280 Wait. So just clarify it's our 452 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,120 contention. 453 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,559 That is not our contention. 454 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:57,200 Right. Well, 455 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,320 that is your contention. 456 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,679 It is my contention. 457 00:21:59,679 --> 00:22:00,880 Has not reached a content. 458 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,360 No, we the board was not involved in the 459 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,039 discussions I had with town council. 460 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:06,559 I would like to come back to Amanda's 461 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:08,480 suggestion 462 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,640 which if that's how it's going to go 463 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,480 forward that we get either one or two 464 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,080 one summary if they agree or two 465 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,760 summaries of this. 466 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,200 Yes. I I I would I would say 467 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,400 the city 468 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,679 I would say that uh you know I I think 469 00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:27,360 it's safe to say this hearing is going 470 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,799 to continue. I mean and at at that 471 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:37,919 continuence I would expect that a uh a a an agreement or a summary or decision 472 00:22:37,919 --> 00:22:40,720 between these two guys would uh be able 473 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,840 to be uh announced. Does that sound uh 474 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,240 reasonable, Mike D? 475 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,159 It does, Steve. And um I can tell you 476 00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:50,159 just a couple of points here uh in 477 00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:52,559 summary. First um you know I always 478 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:54,720 welcome new information. I often change 479 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,000 my mind because uh what guides me is the 480 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,880 law. What I don't do is try to assume 481 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,280 what's in somebody else's mind or make 482 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,200 assertions as to their motives and 483 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,679 values. I think that's inappropriate in 484 00:23:07,679 --> 00:23:10,640 a profession such as this uh where what 485 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,520 we are trying to do is to find what the 486 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,919 statute says where often reasonable 487 00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:18,240 people can disagree. So it may be that 488 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,720 we're able to come to a consensus myself 489 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,120 uh and the applicants council. It may be 490 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,760 that we're not. Um, but either way, we 491 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,520 want to provide the board with full 492 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,320 information from uh either both sides or 493 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,720 one side depending on where we land uh 494 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,960 so that the board can make an informed 495 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,880 decision. And I I think that we're 496 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,760 unlikely to be able to do that on a 497 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,240 telephone conference right now to really 498 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,320 get into the details. Um the second 499 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,159 point I want to make and and and this is 500 00:23:46,159 --> 00:23:47,840 just for the board's general knowledge. 501 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,159 This is an area where I agree with 502 00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:52,640 applicants council is relative to the 503 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,840 law around taking it. And so one of the 504 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,679 uh issues for the board to be aware of 505 00:23:57,679 --> 00:24:01,440 is in my opinion we could not apply the 506 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,679 driveway separation bylaw in such a 507 00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:06,640 manner that there was no access onto the 508 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,559 property. Right? We look at the the 509 00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:10,880 Lucas case out of South Carolina and 510 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,960 that would basically foreclose all 511 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,279 economic uses of the parcel. That would 512 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:17,760 be a regulatory taking. And so one of 513 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,919 the other questions that we have to 514 00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:23,760 consider uh where the uh driveway 515 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,480 separation bylaw may apply if we 516 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,960 determine that it does. We also have to 517 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,760 be able to provide some access to the 518 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,320 property uh in order for it to be valid. 519 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,000 So I just share that with the board as 520 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,960 some further context. 521 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,080 Thank you. 522 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,640 And I I don't know if do you want to get 523 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,640 into the details of that or just let 524 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,799 that be and let let you uh 525 00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:49,120 I think we can take that up along with 526 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:51,120 uh you know the detailed legal memo for 527 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:53,600 the board uh to consider. Again, it may 528 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,440 be one memo from both of us if we're on 529 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,880 the same page. It may be two separate 530 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,440 memos. 531 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,679 Mr. Pill, is that agreeable to you? 532 00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:03,679 Well, 533 00:25:03,679 --> 00:25:07,039 it sounds like he's as familiar as I am 534 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:10,880 that the tenor of the US Supreme Court 535 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,600 is much more favorable in recent decades 536 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,360 to property rights than the 537 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:16,880 municipalities. 538 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,679 And so if the first issue becomes 539 00:25:19,679 --> 00:25:22,400 irrelevant, then that's fine and the 540 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,400 second issue governs. With respect to 541 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,960 the first issue, Patel versus Planning 542 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,799 Board of North Andover is the 543 00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:31,760 cornerstone of my case. So I'm not sure 544 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,840 how much dialogue we need. It sounds 545 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,320 like he and I are both familiar with the 546 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,960 regulatory taking case law especially 547 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,679 from the US Supreme Court. So, and if 548 00:25:41,679 --> 00:25:44,320 obviously if your council's conclusion 549 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,720 is that the regulatory taking issue 550 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,520 means that the bylaw cannot be 551 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,480 constitutionally applied regardless of 552 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,000 what the issue is with ANR deed um 553 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,600 recording or whatever, then we can both 554 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,200 save our clients a lot of money and 555 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,480 time. So, I guess I'd say that balls in 556 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,159 his court and I hope he would, you know, 557 00:26:08,159 --> 00:26:10,480 let us know where he concludes on the 558 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,520 regulatory taking issue because then I 559 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,200 can sit down and shut up and you all can 560 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,909 get back to work. 561 00:26:19,919 --> 00:26:22,159 Mike, I Mike D, I don't know how you 562 00:26:22,159 --> 00:26:24,320 feel about that. We have talked about 563 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,880 that offline between the two of us and 564 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,000 we I just don't know where did you want 565 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,039 to step in that one or 566 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:35,440 Well, I think what we need to uh know 567 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,440 and this this may be a further offline 568 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,279 conversation is is whether there is any 569 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:44,559 access under uh the driveway separation 570 00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:46,720 bylaw if it were to be applied. And the 571 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,720 reason for that is because you know in 572 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,279 that Lucas case uh in the Supreme Court 573 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:54,240 taking case it basically said that a a 574 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,320 regulatory taking generally forecloses 575 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,159 all economic value right if it 576 00:26:58,159 --> 00:27:01,760 forecloses 95 but not 100 uh% of the 577 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,159 value it's not a regulatory taking in a 578 00:27:04,159 --> 00:27:06,000 way of saying you know it may not be how 579 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,520 you want to use the property but there 580 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,000 is an economically beneficial use is not 581 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,320 a regulatory taking. On the other hand, 582 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,720 if you could not access the property at 583 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,440 all, you could not build any driveway to 584 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,360 access it, then then that would 585 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,760 foreclose all economic use and would be 586 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,919 a taken. And so the question really is 587 00:27:23,919 --> 00:27:26,320 and uh this is what I think we need to 588 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,520 discuss is is there a way to access the 589 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,039 property if the bylaw were applied as 590 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:35,120 written? And what I I just can't tell 591 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,720 from um the existing paperwork whether 592 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,760 there is um a spot between the different 593 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,159 colored lines where where access may be 594 00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:45,360 possible. 595 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,200 If I if I could through the chair, 596 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,559 attorney, is it okay to call you 597 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:49,840 attorney Mike because I'm not sure what 598 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,000 the last name is. Absolutely. Call Mike 599 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,200 D. Attorney Mike D. Um Rob Lec again. I 600 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,000 don't know if you're watching on TV or 601 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,320 closed circuit TV. Um we have an 602 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,880 exhibit. It is dated uh 60325. 603 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,279 It's provided also as a graphic on the 604 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,760 memo for Green Miles Lipton uh LLP dated 605 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,520 June 24th, 2025. It very specifically 606 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,120 shows that all access points to the 607 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,080 property would be eliminated if the 608 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,880 driveway bylaw were utilized. 609 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,039 uh we have separations from each of the 610 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:28,559 driveways 611 00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:32,080 uh roadways, curve cuts, etc. across and 612 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,880 on the same side of the roadways. So, um 613 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,440 that that graphic I think is probably 614 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:38,799 what you're looking for. So, if you 615 00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:40,159 don't have that already, we'll certainly 616 00:28:40,159 --> 00:28:41,120 provide that. 617 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:41,760 He does. 618 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:48,710 Okay, great. 619 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,960 Uh thank you, Rob. And um and I I think 620 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,919 I uh I think I have that uh that I have 621 00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:55,600 in front of me, but it may be helpful to 622 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,880 confirm afterwards that I'm looking at 623 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,559 the right one. And specifically, it 624 00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:02,880 looks like there's an area where the uh 625 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,799 there's sort of a gap between two of the 626 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:06,559 lines where there might be an access 627 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:08,799 point, but I just can't tell it, you 628 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,039 know, how wide it is. It may not be wide 629 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:12,720 enough for a car to drive through, in 630 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,960 which case it's not practical access. So 631 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,559 just a little bit more um detail on that 632 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:19,760 I want to get into. 633 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,679 Yeah, absolutely. And that and I and I 634 00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:23,440 respect that question. So I believe 635 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,880 you're talking about the area where the 636 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,520 two 250 radi uh join each other and know 637 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,840 there's not enough width for access. 638 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,320 Further complicating this is that mass 639 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,760 dot is the jurisdictional authority on 640 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,880 you know Ammerst road. So we are going 641 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,480 through the mass DOT process for the 642 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,159 curb cuts. We have our traffic engineer 643 00:29:44,159 --> 00:29:45,600 that is obviously communicating with 644 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,960 Mass DOT as we are. Um so yeah, so to 645 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,880 clarify that graphic, there is no room 646 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,480 for access anywhere on this property 647 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,720 provided we respect all of the bylaw, 648 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,799 which we still think don't doesn't 649 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:03,520 apply, but there's no way in if that's 650 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,440 the case, I guess, is the bottom line. 651 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,600 Thank you. 652 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,960 So, I I think that's worth us um uh uh 653 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,919 following up on because we may well we 654 00:30:13,919 --> 00:30:15,440 may end up agreeing on the first 655 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,279 question, we may end up continuing to 656 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:20,720 disagree. Um but, you know, if we what 657 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,320 I'd like to see is something showing, 658 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,159 you know, whatever that distance is and 659 00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:26,320 I I don't know how many inches or feet 660 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,320 it is and then the board can make a 661 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,159 determination that says um 662 00:30:32,159 --> 00:30:34,640 you know, if it's 6 in, obviously that's 663 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,120 not real access. um and um uh and 664 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,440 therefore, you know, the bylaw can't 665 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,000 apply as written. Um but having that 666 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,520 level of specificity, I think will be 667 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,840 helpful for the board so they can make a 668 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,919 determination as to whether that access 669 00:30:49,919 --> 00:30:51,200 is or isn't there. 670 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,200 Uh and that graphic through the chair 671 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,360 again, that graphic is colorcoded based 672 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,159 on the different required separations. 673 00:30:58,159 --> 00:30:59,840 So if it's across the street, it's a 674 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,320 certain color. if it's on the same side, 675 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,720 depending on the nature, if it's a curb 676 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,440 cut versus a street, uh, versus an 677 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,279 intersection, those are all colorcoded. 678 00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:10,799 So, we're happy to describe that. Should 679 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,559 you get a chance to review that in the 680 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:14,799 time to come, we'll have we'll be happy 681 00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:17,600 to, you know, clarify that for you. 682 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,200 Great. Appreciate it. 683 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,880 Thank you. 684 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,360 So uh what we would like is uh for the 685 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,720 two mics to take this uh discussion 686 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,039 argument or whatever uh offline and uh 687 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,799 address those two issues. And uh at the 688 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,440 time of our next continuence, whenever 689 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,799 it may be, uh we had hoped to get uh uh 690 00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:51,039 some legal opinions that the board can uh 691 00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:51,840 deal with. 692 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,720 Well, I've he's got apparently 693 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,039 he does have that. I I I I did send that 694 00:31:57,039 --> 00:31:59,120 and he's got the citation that I gave 695 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,399 him and so I look forward to receiving 696 00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:05,279 whatever town council has to say or 697 00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:07,200 write and we can take it from there. 698 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,000 Thank you very much. 699 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,799 I suggest you guys set up a date and uh 700 00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,120 well, I need to get I need to get he's 701 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,120 got our side of the story between what 702 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,960 I've said tonight and what I put in 703 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,919 writing. So I I I've just waited. We can 704 00:32:19,919 --> 00:32:25,350 set a date as soon as I get his side. 705 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,039 So, 706 00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,360 can you guys get together, pick a date, 707 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,679 and then do do I mean, 708 00:32:31,679 --> 00:32:33,679 I just don't want to chew up time. In 709 00:32:33,679 --> 00:32:36,640 other words, he's he's got an argument, 710 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,640 but he hasn't shared his legal authority 711 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:39,200 like 712 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,360 I understand that. Can you guys get 713 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,919 together and exchange information? I 714 00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:44,080 mean, 715 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:44,960 yes, 716 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,720 is it isn't that uh 717 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,720 Well, I hope he will do that. Thank you. 718 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,919 Yeah, I'd be happy to talk to 719 00:32:49,919 --> 00:32:52,480 It's a two-way street. I mean, I have to 720 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,840 say you you will call him or you will 721 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,279 call him. I mean, come on. 722 00:32:57,279 --> 00:32:59,760 Attorney Mike D. Rob here again to help 723 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,399 facilitate. Um, the best contact 724 00:33:02,399 --> 00:33:05,200 information for you is what? No, 725 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,840 I let me give you my uh cell. Feel free 726 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,679 to write it down. It's uh generally 727 00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:12,720 available anyways. Uh, which is 781 728 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,909 8014317. 729 00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:18,240 Uh, and I welcome a call and happy to 730 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,440 talk at any time. 731 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,440 Thank you, sir. appreciate it. But all I 732 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,120 can do is say, "Please send me your 733 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,399 memorandum and please provideations, 734 00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:28,000 which I've just done." But I'll be happy 735 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,919 to call him and leave a message that 736 00:33:29,919 --> 00:33:31,519 says the same thing. That's all I can 737 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:32,159 do. 738 00:33:32,159 --> 00:33:34,159 I hope you talk to him personally, not 739 00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:36,320 have to leave a message. You could if 740 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,240 you could share your ex if you could 741 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,000 change your 781. 742 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,039 I I try to pick up. I will say uh but I'll add that I often find that just 743 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:47,440 talking can can be helpful uh especially 744 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,600 when you've got uh two attorneys uh you 745 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,440 can work through a lot of items uh more 746 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,559 quickly talking uh but you know if 747 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:56,480 writing is preferred first I'm also 748 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,200 happy to do that 749 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,000 if it requires a face-toface meeting 750 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:00,880 make it so 751 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,480 I'll be happy to give him a call and 752 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,320 maybe we can meet by Zoom which is the 753 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,159 next best thing at least we can see each 754 00:34:06,159 --> 00:34:06,880 other 755 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,040 I'll be I'll give him a call tomorrow 756 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,040 thank you. 757 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,760 That was fun. Okay. 758 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:16,240 So, 759 00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:17,520 the lawyers maybe. 760 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,760 Okay. 761 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,040 Come on. Share the fun. Okay. So, uh, 762 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,960 that issue is going to be discussed in a 763 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,879 pint and like I said, I just wanted to 764 00:34:28,879 --> 00:34:32,879 share that we did find that ANR and 765 00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:36,320 I'll just make an editorial comment that 766 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,679 uh, and I see it happen on filing 767 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:40,960 uh, 768 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,320 special permit uh, decisions uh, are 769 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,560 supposed to be filed at the registry of 770 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,440 deeds. It would shock you to see how 771 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,159 many don't get spiled. 772 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:53,679 And 773 00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:56,159 it my understanding is it it's the 774 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,760 responsibility of 775 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,240 the person that that receives a special 776 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,480 permit. I know that's the case and I 777 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,560 think it's the responsibility of the 778 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,440 person who receives an ANR to file it. 779 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,359 And 780 00:35:13,359 --> 00:35:16,000 sometimes they forget, sometimes they 781 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,040 don't do it cuz it's 782 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,480 so and sometimes plans change. 783 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,119 And there's our I got exhibit A right 784 00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:27,119 there. 785 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:28,640 Steve, can you just quickly clarify? 786 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,880 They did receive the special permit. Is 787 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,960 that correct? Document. 788 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,760 No, no, no, no. These people they this 789 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,240 special permit is still uh being 790 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,839 special permit, but the the This is not 791 00:35:41,839 --> 00:35:45,359 a special permit. It is a it is a uh 792 00:35:45,359 --> 00:35:48,079 approval not required. 793 00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:50,640 It it's it's pretty much a plan that 794 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:51,119 Yeah. 795 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,119 If they brought that in, 796 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:55,040 if they had brought that in, would that 797 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:55,680 have been 798 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,400 No. So, can I can I clarify? Sorry. um 799 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,000 as a member of the um so when a when 800 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,680 somebody presents an approval that 801 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,359 required submission um it's essentially 802 00:36:07,359 --> 00:36:09,040 saying 803 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,200 they they don't have to get a special 804 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,960 permit or the approval of the zoning 805 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,880 board planning board. What they need to 806 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,520 show essentially is a plan that all the 807 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:24,160 planning board looks at is whether the newly configured lots comply with 808 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,480 the frontage and other requirements on 809 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,040 zoning code. If they do, then we have no 810 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,599 choice but to endorse the ANR. 811 00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:33,280 And when that was signed, then you 812 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,680 approved that. I mean, I wasn't on the 813 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,079 planning board in 2014, but the the 814 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:40,320 planning board got that submission as an 815 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,960 ANR presumably, you know, looked at the configuration of the lots as as 816 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,040 contemplated, made sure that they 817 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,440 complied with the the conventional 818 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,440 requirements of the of the zoning code 819 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,320 and then endorsed it, saying yes. 820 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,000 And I I would say there's two 821 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,400 disclaimers on here. It says planning 822 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,760 board endorsements shall not be 823 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,320 construed as either being an endorsement 824 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,800 or approval of the zoning bylaws 825 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,480 requirements of the town. And another 826 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,000 one this that there's a second one. It 827 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,599 says endorsement of this plan does not 828 00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:13,920 certify compliance with zoning of any 829 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,800 time town bylaw or regulation. So 830 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,680 they but they they look to see that it's 831 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,280 proper and I mean I'll do 832 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,440 Yeah. Yeah. And and if if we get a like 833 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:24,880 you know I can tell our process if we 834 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,560 get a plan that you know 835 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,079 I'm sure you get some crazy ones, 836 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,160 right? And if it's not if it's not what 837 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,800 it needs to be, then we send it back. 838 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,640 You don't approve it. 839 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,000 Just to the chair. What what he said is 840 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,800 exactly correct. And what I think 841 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,480 supports what I was saying is, and 842 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,320 that's chapter 183 or 184, section 6A, 843 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,599 if you're creating a new lot, you cannot 844 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,800 lawfully record a deed without the 845 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,640 planning board approval. So, you see, 846 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,240 it's not the planning board approval 847 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,880 that creates the new lot. It's simply a 848 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,680 precondition so that when a new lot is 849 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,400 created along with the deed, you've got 850 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,079 a plan that shows at least it went by 851 00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:10,880 the planning board. And I am Am I making 852 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,079 sense? It's it's like a preliminary 853 00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:16,880 to the creation of a new law ID. Thank 854 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,040 you. 855 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:23,920 Okay. I I I hear your point. Okay. So, 856 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,599 shall we move on to the second uh agenda 857 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:31,599 item? And Mike D, I don't know if you uh 858 00:38:31,599 --> 00:38:34,480 if if you're if you uh are suffering 859 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,520 from insomnia, uh you're welcome to stay 860 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:38,480 and listen. 861 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:39,599 Excuse me. 862 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:40,800 Hold on a second. I got a 863 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,640 quick question. This is 864 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:43,760 Who uh who are you? 865 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,800 I'm Jen Snaker. I've lived in for about 866 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,599 25 years. 867 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:51,440 Okay. Um, is this uh thing we've been 868 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,040 discussing uh the dollar store what they 869 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,480 want store 870 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:02,560 dollar general is is they're they're the developers for the dollar. 871 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,320 Okay. Um is it appropriate tonight to uh 872 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,119 a general public to voice their 873 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:11,839 No. Uh we we've we've actually I mean 874 00:39:11,839 --> 00:39:14,000 we've actually had a lot of discussion 875 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,960 and we can have more at the end but it's 876 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,599 not really germanine to today's uh 877 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:20,160 agenda. 878 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,839 When you say the end, what do you mean 879 00:39:21,839 --> 00:39:23,839 like public comment? 880 00:39:23,839 --> 00:39:26,240 Well, it's not going to end today. I 881 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:28,400 mean, we we have a lot the zoning board 882 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,320 has a lot to look at in this case and 883 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,440 we've already had four continuations. 884 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:35,839 Okay. 885 00:39:35,839 --> 00:39:37,599 I I'll bet the house we're going to have 886 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:40,320 a fifth one. So, and maybe even more 887 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,200 than that. So, that would be a better 888 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,920 time to uh to put on that kind of uh I 889 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,320 mean that kind of uh input. So, 890 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,680 okay. Thanks. 891 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,280 So, Mike, I'll leave it to you whether 892 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,520 you want to buck out or if you want to 893 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,640 stay. 894 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,200 Uh 895 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,320 Mr. Chair, I'm I'm available at at your 896 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,000 discretion and if you feel that I would 897 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,599 be helpful later on, I'm happy to stay. 898 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:04,000 Otherwise, I'm happy to save the town 899 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,040 money and sign off. 900 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,040 I got I got your I got your cell number. 901 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:08,720 I'll call you back. 902 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:10,640 Yeah, I'll I'll I'll be available if 903 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,359 needed. And um I want to thank you, the 904 00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:15,280 board, uh the applicants, uh 905 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,599 representatives and council uh for their 906 00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:20,160 time tonight. And I look forward to 907 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,200 continuing this conversation tomorrow. 908 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:23,839 Thank you. 909 00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:24,640 Okay. Thank you. 910 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,560 Mike. 911 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:27,440 Have a great evening. 912 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,400 You too. 913 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,510 Good night. 914 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,560 Okay. Um, let's see what I have next on 915 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,520 the uh this is sort of sort of a 916 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,880 carryover from uh the agenda from our 917 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,720 last hearing we never got to. uh you you 918 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,800 uh uh have made uh a different layout uh 919 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,560 and you provided us with drawings uh rev 920 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,880 drawings uh I don't know if you want to 921 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,160 briefly go over that uh and you also 922 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,599 provided some new uh elevations. 923 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,040 Yes sir. So, uh, 924 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,880 this 925 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,640 I'm trying to think. I I didn't even 926 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,839 send it on to the I do have these in 927 00:41:17,839 --> 00:41:20,000 electronic form, but just haven't sent 928 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,119 it off to you guys yet. 929 00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:25,200 Uh, this one of the just before we get 930 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,040 into that, I did post documents on our 931 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,000 website, the ZBA zoning board website 932 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,640 for the town of Sunderland. Uh, I was a 933 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,079 little late in putting it. I'd forgotten 934 00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:38,240 about it, but there are several 935 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,119 documents including the latest plans, 936 00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:43,920 the Rev B plans are on the website for 937 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,520 viewing. Uh the letter that Michael uh 938 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,400 the two Michaels were talking about is 939 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,119 up on there. Uh and the elevations are 940 00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:55,119 on there. So, uh I was a little bit late 941 00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:56,640 in get that getting it on there. I 942 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,400 forgot about it, but it is up on the 943 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,599 website for for those that uh that are 944 00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:03,119 interested. Rob, 945 00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:05,119 thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um again for 946 00:42:05,119 --> 00:42:08,240 the record Rob Lec associates uh 947 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,440 president of Rbec and we are the civil 948 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,839 survey site landscape architecture 949 00:42:13,839 --> 00:42:17,200 component of the project. We um designed 950 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,160 the site originally as discussed um had 951 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,400 a different orientation and talking to 952 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,160 the zone board of appeals in the last 953 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,040 public hearings we basically decided 954 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,720 that there may be a way to be less 955 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:32,000 impactful potentially improved on the 956 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,920 circulation patterns curve cuts within 957 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,319 the site. So what we did is we basically 958 00:42:36,319 --> 00:42:38,880 reoriented the building um so that it is 959 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,920 90 degrees uh to the street have would 960 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,520 have less aesthetic impact um as well as 961 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,200 having the parking on the side of the 962 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,839 building allows us to reconfigure the 963 00:42:49,839 --> 00:42:52,480 location of the curb cut off Ammerst 964 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,119 Road um specifically directly across 965 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:56,880 from the curb cut for the plaza and the 966 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,960 Dunkin Donuts to the I guess that's to 967 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,560 this 968 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,920 south 969 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,480 west um and um also reconfigured 970 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,640 slightly the curb cut uh off of Clark 971 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,200 Mountain. Uh we have the parking spaces 972 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,200 which are approximately actually they 973 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,800 are 46 parking spaces. We have the um 974 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,520 refu area and loading area at the back 975 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,960 side of the building so that that 976 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,760 doesn't impact um visibility from the 977 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,160 street which was previously kind of on 978 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,440 this side. Um generally speaking um 979 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,040 we've met all of the parking 980 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,440 requirements. Uh we believe we've met 981 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,640 all of the access requirements. We have 982 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,319 run truck turning movements through the 983 00:43:38,319 --> 00:43:41,359 site uh with regard to um drop off 984 00:43:41,359 --> 00:43:42,640 vehicle drop off. You'll see that 985 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,119 there's this long apron here that is for 986 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:46,640 the truck turning movements. As you can 987 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,319 imagine, you get into the site, you want 988 00:43:48,319 --> 00:43:49,680 to be able to back into the loading 989 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,800 area. Um there are on occasion tractor 990 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,720 trailer trucks that will be delivering. 991 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,079 A lot of times they're smaller, but 992 00:43:56,079 --> 00:43:57,760 there are tractor trailer trucks that 993 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,480 will periodically be delivering. So, um, 994 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,800 this is the overall layout that was, I 995 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,040 guess, informally discussed previously, 996 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,800 at least in in general format. This has 997 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,720 been refined. 998 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,200 I'd be happy to stop there. Emily Buck 999 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:12,720 is here this evening. She is our traffic 1000 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:14,720 engineer from Bowman. I think Michael 1001 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,720 was here last Michael Michael was here 1002 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,280 last time in herstead. Um, she decided 1003 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,280 to go ahead and get married. Go figure, 1004 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:21,760 right? Oh, 1005 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:22,079 dare. 1006 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:24,720 Um, so anyway, so she is available this 1007 00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:26,720 evening to discuss the revised storm, 1008 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:28,400 I'm sorry, revised traffic report. We 1009 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,920 also have a revised storm water report. 1010 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,599 I know that there was some questions and 1011 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:34,160 comments in the past. 1012 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,599 Generally speaking, we have very 1013 00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:37,599 specific requirements for storm water. 1014 00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:39,359 Happy to get into those should you want 1015 00:44:39,359 --> 00:44:41,280 to entertain that later. Uh but for now, 1016 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,960 I'll probably stop there and then 1017 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,480 through the chair be happy to answer 1018 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,240 your questions about circulation and 1019 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,920 then I can transfer things to Emily 1020 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,069 or however you want to do it. 1021 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,599 Um, I think one of the one of the things 1022 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,079 I like to ask and one thing I'll note 1023 00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,079 the at the first layout you were 1024 00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:06,160 actually going to have the the tractor 1025 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,920 trailers pulling through the parking 1026 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,880 area and I see that you've made change 1027 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,359 where now the tractor trailer all looks 1028 00:45:13,359 --> 00:45:14,960 like all deliveries will be coming in 1029 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,400 from Clark Mountain Road. 1030 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:17,040 Yes sir. 1031 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,160 And it it would negate driving through 1032 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,480 the parking area. There was some concern 1033 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,280 about driving 1034 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,599 separation separating passenger car from 1035 00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:26,319 delivery system. 1036 00:45:26,319 --> 00:45:27,680 Right. And you get nice little 1037 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,920 turnaround there. Uh that uh 1038 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,680 I just want to note that cuz you made 1039 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:34,960 that change. 1040 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:40,560 Um the new driveway location AC that's 1041 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,960 from 116. Now you say that's directly 1042 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,440 across the uh the Dunkin Donuts 1043 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,160 entrance. 1044 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,960 Yes. and also um directly where mass dot 1045 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,880 has requested that we shift it. Uh 1046 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,040 originally it was a farther up the road. 1047 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,200 Um so it's part of our redesign and one 1048 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,839 of the driving factors for the curb cut 1049 00:45:59,839 --> 00:46:03,200 location um was the comment from Mass 1050 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,119 Dot. I think it was a 25% comment from 1051 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:07,520 Mass DOT basically addressed that asked 1052 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,200 us to put it at certain station point. 1053 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,200 That's where it is directly across. 1054 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,680 Again, we're we're directly across from 1055 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,880 the subway exit onto Clark Mountain with 1056 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:23,670 our entry exit over there. 1057 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,880 Board, have any questions or comments on 1058 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,119 this revised 1059 00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:34,069 layout? 1060 00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:36,560 Um, see, 1061 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,160 just to help me with the layout, maybe 1062 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,440 it's easier on the bottom. 1063 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,839 Sure. on that. Could you put either on 1064 00:46:41,839 --> 00:46:43,680 either one? Can you put your finger on 1065 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,670 where the oak tree is 1066 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:48,079 on that? 1067 00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:48,960 You say the oak tree. 1068 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,960 Yeah. 1069 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,119 Is it the lot or is it in the middle of 1070 00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:53,760 the lot? 1071 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:54,720 The uh 1072 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:57,599 the existing 1073 00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:59,920 it be in a picture. 1074 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,560 Got it. 1075 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,599 Uh somebody want to show me which 1076 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:07,119 Sorry 1077 00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:09,520 to your right hand. The aerial. Is that 1078 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,280 the aerial photo? 1079 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,000 Is it? 1080 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,990 Yeah. 1081 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,440 Is it right here? I 1082 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,599 think that's it. 1083 00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:23,430 No, it's further. 1084 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:33,990 I'm just trying to Sorry. 1085 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,800 Um, 1086 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,800 so the oak tree that I believe Mr. 1087 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,470 Beckley is talking about is 1088 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,200 okay here. 1089 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,160 I'm sorry. There's another one here. 1090 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:53,040 It's 26 in or 28 inch tree here. 1091 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:53,760 That's not it. 1092 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,560 Will they remain? 1093 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,720 asking right here right there. Thank 1094 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:00,560 you. 1095 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,680 So, is the tree in question staying or 1096 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:04,319 going? 1097 00:48:04,319 --> 00:48:05,839 How it lines up on the site? 1098 00:48:05,839 --> 00:48:06,400 Okay. 1099 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,240 As you see as you drive by today where 1100 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,440 the building's going to be it's going to 1101 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,359 be to the 1102 00:48:11,359 --> 00:48:13,599 and is that that tree is going or 1103 00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:14,720 I would definitely go. 1104 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:17,680 Okay. 1105 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,589 Regrading. 1106 00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,359 uh one of the asks uh that I made and 1107 00:48:25,359 --> 00:48:28,720 you complied with that you have some uh 1108 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,440 elevations that are close closer to 1109 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,000 scale to to this. Uh do you want to can 1110 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,359 you talk to that? 1111 00:48:37,359 --> 00:48:39,359 Sure. 1112 00:48:39,359 --> 00:48:41,760 Um, 1113 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,160 this is at a somewhat different scale 1114 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,800 than the other drawings. Actually, it's 1115 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,760 about, uh, this is closer to what, uh, 1116 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,680 you had been submitted before. 1117 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,760 Uh, yep. So, just to orient everyone, 1118 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,240 um, if you're looking 1119 00:48:58,240 --> 00:48:58,720 the right one 1120 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,160 from 116 is 1121 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,040 the middle one. 1122 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:02,319 Just the middle. That's that one. 1123 00:49:02,319 --> 00:49:04,480 Yeah. Looking straight across. 1124 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,640 This would be the view from 116. So the 1125 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,720 building so the building before was 1126 00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:10,720 obviously longer towards 116 this kind 1127 00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:12,880 of truncase thing. Uh this would be the 1128 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,680 view if you're coming from Ammerst. Uh 1129 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,839 so the crowd corner here with the 1130 00:49:17,839 --> 00:49:20,319 glazing um on the far side of the 1131 00:49:20,319 --> 00:49:22,480 building. Originally there was no 1132 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:22,960 right 1133 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,280 uh really no articulation of you know 1134 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,440 facade. So what we've done is we have 1135 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,520 they have a brick shelf here. Um they 1136 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,880 have uh I guess we call them shutters 1137 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,599 faux windows shutters etc. um along that 1138 00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:38,400 hole and and then the you know the the 1139 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,119 roof line here. So this really is the 1140 00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:42,800 only, 1141 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,200 you know, basic elevation which is to 1142 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,319 the back um at the loading area, but 1143 00:49:48,319 --> 00:49:50,559 everything else is basically hardy plank 1144 00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:54,160 siding trim um you know and then 1145 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:55,920 slightly taller roof but still staying 1146 00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,069 into the requirements 1147 00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:02,079 and again the materials and you know 1148 00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:05,280 accommodations are you know 1149 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,359 malleable a little bit at this point you 1150 00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:08,800 know so if there's certain questions or 1151 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,800 concerns concerns. I'm sure um they 1152 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,400 would be more than happy to try to 1153 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,040 address concerns. 1154 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,520 I I I will tell board members this is 1155 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,079 kind of new to you. Uh I I received them 1156 00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:23,920 like late last week and uh 1157 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,319 I have not forwarded a lot of them to 1158 00:50:26,319 --> 00:50:29,280 you. So I apologize for that and that's 1159 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,720 why I asked Ron to uh Rob to uh to to 1160 00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:37,119 touch on that. So good. If you have 1161 00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:43,349 thoughts, we're happy to take input. 1162 00:50:43,359 --> 00:50:44,720 Just can I ask a question? 1163 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:45,119 Sure. 1164 00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:46,880 Is there signage on the building? 1165 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,880 There will be. Yes. Yeah, we'll have to 1166 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,480 meet the sign requirements. I could ask 1167 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,480 the architect to show that. 1168 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,800 Um they they did not in this edition, 1169 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,480 but I certainly could. 1170 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,000 Do you have any idea where just 1171 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,880 I would believe it would be here and 1172 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,960 here if if permitted. So right here and 1173 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,400 here. 1174 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,319 typically where it would be. I might 1175 00:51:08,319 --> 00:51:10,880 even have a picture of some recently 1176 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,480 built that I can show. But 1177 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,680 I think your notes said uh that's where 1178 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,280 the sign area be subject to uh 1179 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,040 you know zoning or something like that. 1180 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,190 So 1181 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,839 I have just another question on the 1182 00:51:29,839 --> 00:51:31,760 second. Yeah, you that one down on that 1183 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,200 one. Can you just remind me where the 1184 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,319 lot line is on that one? 1185 00:51:38,319 --> 00:51:43,200 So, the existing lot line is Oh, 1186 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,160 it's way over here. So, um right here 1187 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:49,839 would be, you know, potentially a 1188 00:51:49,839 --> 00:51:54,079 proposed lot line. Um but right now, 1189 00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:57,359 this is where the line is. So it's the 1190 00:51:57,359 --> 00:51:57,760 red 1191 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,720 all attorneys conversations aside. 1192 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,599 So the the picture um with the 1193 00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:05,680 driveways, right? That whole red section 1194 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,000 is the current lot. 1195 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,920 Well, that's that's that's right. 1196 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:16,720 That's 9 that's 9-44 and 9-00 right on 1197 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:17,440 this drawing. 1198 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,920 That is so that just to clarify this 1199 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,880 entire lot is the subject parcel at this 1200 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,680 point. At this point, 1201 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,839 that's what you're applying for the 1202 00:52:27,839 --> 00:52:30,480 special appointment for is that lot. 1203 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:31,680 Correct. Yeah. 1204 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:45,750 Thank you. 1205 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,559 Okay. Thank you for submitting those and 1206 00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:50,800 again I I will I will pass them on to 1207 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,240 the to the zoning board. 1208 00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:56,400 And they're actually uh on the website. 1209 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,000 You can actually download them from the 1210 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,280 ZBA website. One the uh the storm water 1211 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,319 report is is a monster. So 1212 00:53:06,319 --> 00:53:07,680 light reading 1213 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,480 277 pages of light rating and about 1214 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,319 35 meg of 1215 00:53:14,319 --> 00:53:16,319 too big for an attachment. 1216 00:53:16,319 --> 00:53:19,599 Excuse me. I have a question. Uh David, 1217 00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:23,040 20 years investment. Um, are we 1218 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,520 approving the removal of the vegetation 1219 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,440 in the watershed 1220 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,599 district? Is that part of the exception 1221 00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:31,599 that they're applying for? 1222 00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:33,119 Uh, 1223 00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:34,880 I mean, as part of the demolition, I 1224 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,520 mean, that's going specifically into 1225 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:38,480 that. 1226 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,200 You know, this this this parcel is in 1227 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,480 the uh uh watershed district 1228 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,880 and it actually is subject to a special 1229 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,160 permit from the planning board. So, it's 1230 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,160 kind of weird that uh it's it's I I 1231 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,760 can't think of a case we've ever had 1232 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,839 where like 1233 00:53:57,839 --> 00:54:00,240 uh you know both the planning board and 1234 00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,319 the zoning board sort of having 1235 00:54:04,319 --> 00:54:08,240 uh authority over uh the same use the 1236 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:10,240 same parcel. So, uh 1237 00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:13,119 so the vegetation removal be part of 1238 00:54:13,119 --> 00:54:14,960 exception that would be granted from 1239 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,280 either you or the planning board. Well, 1240 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,920 I mean, if if in the absence of this, I 1241 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,440 mean, if part of it would be the 1242 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,599 demolition and the preparing of the site 1243 00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:25,599 for, you know, whatever they're they're 1244 00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:28,240 doing. Uh 1245 00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:29,599 I I mean that 1246 00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:31,359 so through the through the chair, we do 1247 00:54:31,359 --> 00:54:33,119 have to meet the performance standards 1248 00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:36,240 of of the uh that district as well. Is 1249 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:38,400 there a specific question about uh 1250 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,559 removal that most of the most of the 1251 00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:43,440 area is a field as you're aware? There 1252 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,040 are some mature trees that will have to 1253 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,040 be taken that are obviously where our 1254 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,000 site is going. Um, anything around the 1255 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,760 perimeter that doesn't need to be taken, 1256 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,839 we certainly not plan on taking anything 1257 00:54:53,839 --> 00:54:56,800 beyond what we show on our plan. Um, so, 1258 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,200 but there would be some area in here 1259 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,440 that does have some mature vegetation. A 1260 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,440 lot of the perimeter plan things will, 1261 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,760 you know, we don't we won't control this 1262 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,920 area in the future, but along the along 1263 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,280 the edge, if it doesn't need to be 1264 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,240 touched, we won't touch it. 1265 00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:13,599 So I don't know if there was a specific 1266 00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:20,870 question about vegetation. 1267 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,440 I mean, one of the I mean, the hang I'm 1268 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,480 trying to find the criteria here, but 1269 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,880 you know, when when we get to the end of 1270 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,960 this process, the zoning board will need 1271 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,599 to 1272 00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:38,480 decide on making a, 1273 00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,480 you know, whether to grant or deny a 1274 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,319 special permit. 1275 00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:45,520 And it'll be based on there's like seven 1276 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,480 criteria that we we take into 1277 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,720 consideration. Special permit shall be 1278 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:52,640 granted by the special permit granting 1279 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,480 authority only upon its written 1280 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,280 determination that the proposed use will 1281 00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,680 not have adverse effects which 1282 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,319 overbalance its beneficial effects 1283 00:56:02,319 --> 00:56:05,280 either on the neighborhood or the town. 1284 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,119 In view of partic particular 1285 00:56:07,119 --> 00:56:08,880 characteristics of the site and the 1286 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,680 proposal in relation to that site, the 1287 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,000 determination shall consider each of the 1288 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,400 following and there are seven of them. 1289 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,880 Number one is the social, economic or 1290 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,960 community needs which are served by the 1291 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,119 proposal. 1292 00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:27,760 Number two is traffic flow and safety. 1293 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,839 Number three is adequacy of utilities 1294 00:56:29,839 --> 00:56:33,040 and other public services. 1295 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,359 Number four, neighborhood characteristic 1296 00:56:35,359 --> 00:56:38,400 and social structures. 1297 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,720 Number five, qualities of the natural 1298 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:43,280 environment. And that's probably where 1299 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,760 this falls under. 1300 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,119 Number six, impact or potential fiscal 1301 00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:51,040 impact. 1302 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,160 And number seven is impact on drainage 1303 00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,559 or storm water management. So both of 1304 00:56:56,559 --> 00:57:01,040 those sort of uh fall into this the 1305 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,680 storm water drainage report and some of 1306 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,680 the things that we'll be getting into. 1307 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,400 So um 1308 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,240 that's what the the board will be 1309 00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:12,880 looking at uh 1310 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,680 that the proposed use will not have 1311 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,240 adverse effects which overbalance its 1312 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,760 beneficial effects. That's if it doesn't 1313 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,079 you grant. If it if it if it does, 1314 00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:28,319 that's basis of denial. So that's that's 1315 00:57:28,319 --> 00:57:31,520 really what the board is uh you know 1316 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,400 that's when judgment day comes that's 1317 00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,559 what we'll be reviewing and so we're 1318 00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:38,559 trying to gather as much information 1319 00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:42,799 about these things uh to you know to 1320 00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:45,520 formulate that decision. So through Mr. 1321 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,079 Chair, we have provided um through the 1322 00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:50,160 application package a response to each 1323 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:51,839 of those items, those criteria 1324 00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:55,119 specifically. Um as you are probably 1325 00:57:55,119 --> 00:57:57,920 aware and in the 200 some odd page page 1326 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,880 report um we have addressed all the D 1327 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,440 storm water management standards um for 1328 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,520 storm water. We've addressed all of the 1329 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,000 requirements for treatment drain, water 1330 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,400 quality, storm water attenuation. All of 1331 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,319 those components have been met with 1332 00:58:12,319 --> 00:58:14,559 regard to drainage. Uh with regard to 1333 00:58:14,559 --> 00:58:16,640 the environment, um you know, this site 1334 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,880 is not uh necessarily unique uh other 1335 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,440 than the district that falls within. Um 1336 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,079 it's obviously a an open field that's 1337 00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:28,319 maintained. Um there is some mature 1338 00:58:28,319 --> 00:58:31,359 vegetation. Uh but in general, um 1339 00:58:31,359 --> 00:58:34,160 there's no other criteria. We areware 1340 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:35,680 well aware where I know this was a 1341 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,680 comment from folks in the audience. Uh 1342 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,119 we're well aware of where groundwater 1343 00:58:39,119 --> 00:58:41,680 is. We do test pits before we even start 1344 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,680 our drainage. Our drainage efforts are 1345 00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,720 typically 100 plus hours 1346 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,920 to determine the proper drainage 1347 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,319 associated with the site. So um we feel 1348 00:58:52,319 --> 00:58:54,319 confident and certainly if you have any 1349 00:58:54,319 --> 00:58:55,760 questions through the process with 1350 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,920 regard to how we address those criteria, 1351 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,280 we would be more than happy to meet 1352 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:00,480 those because we feel very confident 1353 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,240 that we have addressed those and can 1354 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:03,760 address each item should you have 1355 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:04,480 concerns. 1356 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,920 Right. the uh the next agenda item uh 1357 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,839 you know sort of gets into one of those 1358 00:59:09,839 --> 00:59:12,559 areas that the the the board would have 1359 00:59:12,559 --> 00:59:19,349 questions about, but uh 1360 00:59:19,359 --> 00:59:21,200 we got a lot of pots on the on the 1361 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:22,799 stove. 1362 00:59:22,799 --> 00:59:26,559 So So we just got to wait till 1363 00:59:26,559 --> 00:59:30,789 they simmer out. Um 1364 00:59:30,799 --> 00:59:34,000 I I I will I'll state again that it's in 1365 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,520 the uh it's in the watershed district. 1366 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:42,559 Uh and you know we we do have uh part of 1367 00:59:42,559 --> 00:59:44,799 our criteria is qualities of the natural 1368 00:59:44,799 --> 00:59:47,680 environment. So we we do have some uh 1369 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:49,200 interest there that we have to make a 1370 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,240 determination on. Um 1371 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,640 uh also uh one thing I wasn't aware of I 1372 00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:01,200 discovered that actually the uh uh the 1373 01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,960 Cliffside Apartments which is nearby 1374 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,200 uh they actually have a well that's uh 1375 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,520 they they they don't use town water they 1376 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:16,799 use well water and uh uh and I think 1377 01:00:16,799 --> 01:00:21,440 part of the their aquifer field is goes 1378 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,359 under this area. So, uh that's something 1379 01:00:23,359 --> 01:00:32,240 that uh uh the the board would be be uh would be, you know, cognizant of 1380 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,040 this. This parcel, even though it's 1381 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,520 changed hands many times and it's been 1382 01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,839 chopped up and combined and all sorts of 1383 01:00:39,839 --> 01:00:43,760 things, uh has essentially been vacant 1384 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,720 and in that state since uh the mid70s. 1385 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,760 Uh so 1386 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,240 uh you know that sort of serves as you 1387 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,119 know not and I I don't pretend to be a 1388 01:00:57,119 --> 01:01:01,359 uh you know any sort of biologist or 1389 01:01:01,359 --> 01:01:05,119 what whatever the proper uh whatever the 1390 01:01:05,119 --> 01:01:06,640 proper 1391 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,480 uh discipline that goes over this but 1392 01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,000 it's uh you know this this has it it's 1393 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,359 been sort of a acryer recharge area and 1394 01:01:15,359 --> 01:01:18,079 so again I'm wandering into areas where 1395 01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:19,760 I'm going get over my head, you know, so 1396 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:25,839 I I'll stop there. But uh but 1397 01:01:25,839 --> 01:01:27,680 you know, so the board is concerned 1398 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,640 about uh potential impacts uh of, you 1399 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,559 know, runoff and whatever of uh of this. 1400 01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:37,599 So 1401 01:01:37,599 --> 01:01:40,960 can just speak to the well uh comment. 1402 01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,680 So public water supply in Massachusetts 1403 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,720 is required to have a a well radius for 1404 01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,680 the zone one uh ranging anywhere from a 1405 01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,520 minimum of 100 ft um to 400 ft based on 1406 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,599 the the draw of the well or the you know 1407 01:01:55,599 --> 01:01:57,680 the product productivity of the well who 1408 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,640 was provided to. Um so that well radius 1409 01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,359 we can certainly show on the plant. We 1410 01:02:03,359 --> 01:02:05,599 are not the well radius in any way for 1411 01:02:05,599 --> 01:02:08,079 the zone one. Uh we are obviously we're 1412 01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:09,680 in the water resources protection 1413 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,920 district. We're in the recharge area. Um 1414 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,520 that's why we've designed the storm 1415 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,160 water management system um to meet the 1416 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,880 requirements. Um so we have met all 1417 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,400 those requirements. I invite you to 1418 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:25,280 review the the drainage I'm sorry the storm water report um which details 1419 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,440 all of that um provides all of that 1420 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,640 information for you. Could I ask 1421 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,000 the storm water drainage report is a a 1422 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,200 further agenda item. Uh I I'm 1423 01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:43,200 particularly interested in the uh the 1424 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:49,829 subsurface infiltration basin design and 1425 01:02:49,839 --> 01:02:50,319 never asked 1426 01:02:50,319 --> 01:02:51,920 what's that you never asked 1427 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,160 and how and how it works and 1428 01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:01,599 you know assume I don't know I mean 1429 01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:04,559 I'm not a you know I 1430 01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:06,240 is this is this basically the same as 1431 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:07,920 the original but flipped 1432 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:08,480 similar. 1433 01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:08,799 Yeah. 1434 01:03:08,799 --> 01:03:11,520 Uh yeah, I think fair to say yes. 1435 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,599 Um so in in basic terms, I can explain 1436 01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:17,839 the requirements for what we need to do. 1437 01:03:17,839 --> 01:03:19,680 Um and what we've generally done and if 1438 01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,359 there's specifics, I can certainly ask 1439 01:03:21,359 --> 01:03:23,039 those questions or our our engineers can 1440 01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:24,240 certainly answer some of those 1441 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,200 questions. But generally speaking, we 1442 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,280 are required to look at the 1443 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,359 pre-development condition. Right now, 1444 01:03:31,359 --> 01:03:33,359 it's a grass field, right? In the 1445 01:03:33,359 --> 01:03:34,880 postdevelopment condition, there's going 1446 01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,480 to be impervious surfaces. So it's 1447 01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,000 generating more runoff during storm 1448 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,480 events. So they want us to one, we'll 1449 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,400 call it attenuate flow, right? So slow 1450 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,599 down, detain, slowly release that water, 1451 01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:49,680 right? They also want us to look at 1452 01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:51,440 water quality. There's stand 10 1453 01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,359 standards they have to meet. Um they 1454 01:03:53,359 --> 01:03:55,200 include recharge, they include, you 1455 01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,599 know, water quality. The water quality 1456 01:03:57,599 --> 01:03:59,039 is achieved through what they call a 1457 01:03:59,039 --> 01:04:01,119 treatment train. So that treatment train 1458 01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:03,200 starts typically in a traditional 1459 01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:04,640 drainage system with catch basins. 1460 01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:06,160 Everybody knows it's a touch basin 1461 01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:07,599 great, right? The water goes into the 1462 01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:09,920 top of it. Well, what you don't see 1463 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,920 below that is typically those structures 1464 01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:13,440 and now they're required to have a deep 1465 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,839 sump. So there there's a 4ft sump below 1466 01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:18,640 the pipe that comes out of it that the 1467 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,160 water goes into. Uh it settles into that 1468 01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:23,839 uh sump, right? And it's supposed to be 1469 01:04:23,839 --> 01:04:26,079 clean. There's periodic requirements um 1470 01:04:26,079 --> 01:04:27,599 throughout the year. They're supposed to 1471 01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:30,400 be clean, street sweeping, etc. So 1472 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,319 that's the first order of business in 1473 01:04:32,319 --> 01:04:34,400 the treatment train. Then it typically 1474 01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,880 goes prior to going into the subsurface 1475 01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,200 system, it would go into a water quality 1476 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,119 unit. So be a proprietary water quality 1477 01:04:41,119 --> 01:04:43,119 unit that essentially swirls the water 1478 01:04:43,119 --> 01:04:45,680 around for lack of a better term. Uh 1479 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:47,680 separates total suspended solids, 1480 01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,799 floatables, etc. gets removed from that 1481 01:04:50,799 --> 01:04:53,680 water and then ideally you're you're 1482 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,920 introducing clean water or remove 80% 1483 01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,799 TSS from the system. And then we have 1484 01:05:00,799 --> 01:05:02,400 within the system, we have what's called 1485 01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,400 an isolated row that's basically 1486 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,039 isolated the fabric so that if that row 1487 01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:10,160 got fouled in some way that that row 1488 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:11,839 could be cleaned out without fouling the 1489 01:05:11,839 --> 01:05:13,839 rest of the system. There's ports over 1490 01:05:13,839 --> 01:05:15,920 the top of the system that were allowed 1491 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,640 to I'm sorry that that are provided for 1492 01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,520 maintenance and you know inspection etc. 1493 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,680 Um the system itself you think of like a 1494 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,520 big septic system it's kind of like that 1495 01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,039 right? So you have drainage that's gets 1496 01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:28,480 the water gets cleaned then it goes into 1497 01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:30,799 the big septic system. Um we have an 1498 01:05:30,799 --> 01:05:32,880 outlet control. So the water goes in 1499 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,559 there it's controlled if you think of an 1500 01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:36,079 hourglass right the sand through the 1501 01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:38,000 hourglass it's the same thing. The water 1502 01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,000 through our drainage system it's slowly 1503 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:41,200 metered out just like it would be 1504 01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:42,319 metered out through a water glass. 1505 01:05:42,319 --> 01:05:44,160 That's the attenuation component. And 1506 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,680 then we're discharging through a 1507 01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:49,520 discharge pipe through an outlet point. 1508 01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:51,839 So we're basically 1509 01:05:51,839 --> 01:05:54,880 collecting, cleaning, 1510 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,720 slowly detaining, and then metering out 1511 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,200 at the same rate 1512 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,119 that it was already going to that same 1513 01:06:03,119 --> 01:06:05,039 design point. So we can't increase the 1514 01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:06,319 amount of water going to that design 1515 01:06:06,319 --> 01:06:08,000 point. We're not supposed to, you know, 1516 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,280 if it was a wetland, you wouldn't want 1517 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,039 to decrease. Uh, in this case, 1518 01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:12,480 obviously, it's already wetland, so it's 1519 01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:13,920 not an issue, but that's what's 1520 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,599 happening. So this rectangle you see 1521 01:06:15,599 --> 01:06:17,680 here is getting all the water. We're 1522 01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:19,119 cleaning it before it gets here. The 1523 01:06:19,119 --> 01:06:20,640 catch basin here, catch basin here, runs 1524 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:22,400 into a water quality unit into our 1525 01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,559 system, out the control, allows it to go 1526 01:06:24,559 --> 01:06:26,799 out slowly out of our system, and then 1527 01:06:26,799 --> 01:06:29,359 just discharge. Um, we also have the 1528 01:06:29,359 --> 01:06:31,119 roof water, which has slightly different 1529 01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:32,720 requirements because it's not, you know, 1530 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,960 it doesn't get floatables and sand and 1531 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:36,400 grit and everything in like a parking 1532 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,359 lot would do. So, we have a an outlet 1533 01:06:39,359 --> 01:06:41,280 pipe from our roof bleeders that goes 1534 01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,280 into the storm water basin here. They 1535 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,119 both provide recharge. They both which 1536 01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:48,640 they want the water to one of the 1537 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:49,760 requirements is that the water be 1538 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,280 allowed to recharge especially in the 1539 01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,520 Nackquifer area recharge clean water 1540 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:57,119 back in reactive. Um we are I think it 1541 01:06:57,119 --> 01:06:58,400 was a question that we're required to 1542 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,119 have uh certain separation above 1543 01:07:01,119 --> 01:07:04,640 groundwater. So two two in most cases 1544 01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,680 sometimes three feet of separation from 1545 01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,799 groundwater for an infiltration basin. 1546 01:07:10,799 --> 01:07:13,920 So these basins are we we do test fits. 1547 01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,280 We look for seasonal high ground water 1548 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,119 which are redoxorphic features in the 1549 01:07:17,119 --> 01:07:19,359 soil that determines ground water based 1550 01:07:19,359 --> 01:07:21,280 on soil evaluation done by a certified 1551 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,599 soil evaluator. And then our civil 1552 01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:25,599 engineers then design the system based 1553 01:07:25,599 --> 01:07:27,520 on that elevation. So everything's got 1554 01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:29,680 to be above that. So that's how it's all 1555 01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,400 designed. That's what you see here. Uh 1556 01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,960 in plan in report describe the 1557 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:36,400 pre-development conditions described the 1558 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,000 post-development conditions described 1559 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,079 all the CFS and different design points 1560 01:07:40,079 --> 01:07:42,079 pre and post development the treatment 1561 01:07:42,079 --> 01:07:43,440 train the water quality how we're 1562 01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,359 meeting all the 10 standards is all in 1563 01:07:45,359 --> 01:07:47,839 that report. Get some popcorn, grab a 1564 01:07:47,839 --> 01:07:50,960 beer. It's exciting stuff. 1565 01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,400 The where the the where the water is 1566 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,240 discharged. 1567 01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,799 That's right. Is that like a perforated 1568 01:07:58,799 --> 01:08:00,720 pipe or is it just like 1569 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,680 it's a solid HDP pipe and it just 1570 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,079 discharged at a flared end with 1571 01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:07,599 discharge service? 1572 01:08:07,599 --> 01:08:08,880 Yes sir. 1573 01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:09,359 Yeah. 1574 01:08:09,359 --> 01:08:14,160 So all the all the runoff from the uh 1575 01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:18,400 parking lots uh and the rooftops 1576 01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,719 does the uh the water from the roof go 1577 01:08:20,719 --> 01:08:22,080 through the same 1578 01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:25,199 filtration separate. Uh so the rooftop 1579 01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:27,359 runoff goes to a basin here a surface 1580 01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,960 basin. Okay. The water here not all and 1581 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:32,159 you said all the water. I just want to 1582 01:08:32,159 --> 01:08:35,040 clarify most of the water is handled in 1583 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:36,960 the subsurface system and then it 1584 01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:38,400 exfiltrates through the bottom of the 1585 01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,440 system. Um there are there is a certain 1586 01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:43,120 amount of flow matching the 1587 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,040 pre-development condition. That same 1588 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,400 amount of flow is sent to this design 1589 01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:51,600 point here. So it's it's pretty well 1590 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,199 described. There's a table in our front 1591 01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:54,799 order report that says pre-development 1592 01:08:54,799 --> 01:08:57,359 CFS to the design point postdevelopment 1593 01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:00,960 CFS which describes all that. 1594 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,279 Now this you say you got a a filtration 1595 01:09:05,279 --> 01:09:07,279 system that's going to require some kind 1596 01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:07,920 of maintenance. 1597 01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,239 Yes, sir. So the entire system requires 1598 01:09:10,239 --> 01:09:12,319 maintenance. There's a long-term on& and 1599 01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:14,560 M as part of the D requirements. There's 1600 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:16,400 a long-term operation and maintenance 1601 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,279 plan that has has to be executed by the 1602 01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:23,679 owner slash uh you know tenant um and 1603 01:09:23,679 --> 01:09:26,080 responsible parties are identified very 1604 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,080 specific schedules for maintenance for 1605 01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,080 different BMPs so best management 1606 01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,000 practices like catch basins you know 1607 01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,000 water quality unit um you know 1608 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,799 inspection of subsurface systems street 1609 01:09:36,799 --> 01:09:38,640 uh or parking lot sweeping should it be 1610 01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,120 required all of those are folded in and 1611 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:42,719 that is all based on the guidelines for 1612 01:09:42,719 --> 01:09:44,960 mass DV 1613 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,759 So who's going to be responsible for the 1614 01:09:47,759 --> 01:09:48,960 maintenance? 1615 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:50,960 Um I mean 1616 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,359 there will be an individual identified 1617 01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:54,320 that is responsible 1618 01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:57,040 but I mean the the this is going to be 1619 01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:57,440 sold. 1620 01:09:57,440 --> 01:09:59,600 So this is developed by Cleo Development 1621 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,080 Group. So hypothetically speaking, Cleo 1622 01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:03,360 Development Group will have a tenant 1623 01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:05,440 that would be Dollar General and Cleo 1624 01:10:05,440 --> 01:10:07,440 Development Group would charge them a 1625 01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:09,920 triple net lease and either they will be 1626 01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,880 specifically responsible for their their 1627 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,840 lease premises or if Kid Toledo 1628 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:17,280 Development does a different agreement 1629 01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:19,120 with them, Kid Toledo Development could 1630 01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,199 be responsible and then they pay Toledo 1631 01:10:21,199 --> 01:10:23,520 Development to be responsible. Um have 1632 01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:25,520 not seen that document but either way 1633 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,440 there is a responsible party and that 1634 01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:31,040 has to be identified. Uh and how good is 1635 01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:34,880 this filtration system with automotive 1636 01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,480 what's like petroleum products 1637 01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:41,600 and you know antifreeze and all other 1638 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:42,800 salt and 1639 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,560 well not so much salt but 1640 01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,600 so um everything that you're talking 1641 01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,159 about uh gets picked up on the asphalt 1642 01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:52,320 right so this is curved asphalt there's 1643 01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,080 collection areas the catch basins 1644 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:55,679 themselves everything is graded at a at 1645 01:10:55,679 --> 01:10:58,880 a minimum of a 1% slope to those catch 1646 01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,560 basins. The the the uh catch basins not 1647 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:03,920 only have the deep sump, but I also 1648 01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:04,960 failed to mention there's something 1649 01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:07,840 called a hood. Um there's very specific 1650 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,640 proprietary hoods that if if you 1651 01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:12,640 envision a pipe, this is my hand is the 1652 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,640 pipe come coming leading out of the 1653 01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,080 catch basin. So you're inside the catch 1654 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,000 basin. This is inside the catch basin. 1655 01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,640 There's a hood that sits over the top of 1656 01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,040 the outlet pipe that actually prevents 1657 01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,280 floatables from getting into that pipe. 1658 01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:27,199 So that's what allows things to settle 1659 01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:29,120 out either in solution it'll settle out 1660 01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,600 in solution or uh eventually as the 1661 01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:36,320 water goes down um it can be then taken 1662 01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,199 out later. Um there's very specific uh 1663 01:11:39,199 --> 01:11:41,120 street sweeping companies that have back 1664 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:43,440 trucks. They remove that material in the 1665 01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:45,360 back truck. It gets disposed of at a 1666 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:47,360 very specific location. It can't just go 1667 01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:49,600 anywhere. Um and they they're doing that 1668 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,679 on a you know daily weekly basis on 1669 01:11:51,679 --> 01:11:54,239 sites. 1670 01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:56,640 Mr. chairman. 1671 01:11:56,640 --> 01:12:00,320 I no uh at this point I'm going to have 1672 01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:01,840 any questions come from the board and 1673 01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,000 then we can open it up to from the 1674 01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:13,110 public. Um 1675 01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:16,080 now the the water that eventually comes 1676 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,239 out of the discharge uh are the is there 1677 01:12:20,239 --> 01:12:22,960 some specification on how clean it is 1678 01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:24,080 relative to the 1679 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:26,159 Yes. uh prior actually prior to going 1680 01:12:26,159 --> 01:12:29,040 into our subsurface system there's very 1681 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:31,120 specific requirements that D has for 1682 01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,600 total suspended solid removal and 1683 01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,679 there's there's certain credits that you 1684 01:12:35,679 --> 01:12:38,000 get for deep subcatch basins for water 1685 01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,679 quality units etc and that all gets 1686 01:12:39,679 --> 01:12:41,280 calculated that's all part of the 1687 01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:42,000 calculations 1688 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,000 will the discharge be monitored I mean 1689 01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:45,920 does it is it tested 1690 01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,320 uh the discharge will not be monitored 1691 01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:51,679 manually by a person um but during the 1692 01:12:51,679 --> 01:12:56,000 operation and maintenance review that is 1693 01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:57,520 described in the operation and 1694 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,159 maintenance document that's part of the 1695 01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:02,320 stormwater report. Absolutely. So, I'm 1696 01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:04,480 going to be checking the entire system 1697 01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:06,880 out falls for, you know, more so for 1698 01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,920 erosion or some sort of scouring, that 1699 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:11,920 type of thing. Uh, again, it's a fairly 1700 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:13,120 flat site, so it's not like we're 1701 01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:14,800 dropping this onto a 3 to1 slope or 1702 01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:16,880 something like that. This is literally a 1703 01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:18,880 low area, you know, adjacent to the 1704 01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,679 property. 1705 01:13:21,679 --> 01:13:23,440 So, it's going on to almost like a lawn, 1706 01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:25,600 call it a lawn area. 1707 01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,440 Very subt if you drive around, you'll 1708 01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:31,990 see these all over town. 1709 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,760 I mean, it sounds like this thing is it 1710 01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:37,520 is going to require some sort of 1711 01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:39,040 maintenance schedule that's fairly 1712 01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:39,840 rigorous. 1713 01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:41,679 Absolutely. Yeah, that that is that is a 1714 01:13:41,679 --> 01:13:44,000 requirement for any new site. This is 1715 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,480 not a lupple uh land use with a higher 1716 01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:48,800 pollutant load. Um like for example an 1717 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:50,800 industrial use or something like that. 1718 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:55,199 Um this is pretty standard stuff. Um so 1719 01:13:55,199 --> 01:13:57,199 you know this is what you would see in 1720 01:13:57,199 --> 01:13:59,520 any commercial parking lot. Um the DP 1721 01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:01,120 requirements aren't drastically 1722 01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,159 different for you know an aquifer area. 1723 01:14:04,159 --> 01:14:05,920 They're they're belts and suspenders 1724 01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,960 already which is good. Um so you know 1725 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,080 it's what's typically required for a new 1726 01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:14,640 construction site or new commercial 1727 01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:17,120 development. 1728 01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:21,840 Mr. Chairman what what you can do is 1729 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,320 make that have you ever seen the on&m 1730 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,320 plan become like a condition? 1731 01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:27,600 It always is. 1732 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,000 Yeah. The on andm plan is is typically 1733 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,000 uh on a planning board decision or on 1734 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,400 the ZBA decision 1735 01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,239 they would it would all be referenced 1736 01:14:36,239 --> 01:14:38,960 into the decision um in a condition 1737 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,040 certainly could be provided. Same thing 1738 01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:42,560 if we had conservation which we don't 1739 01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:44,560 hear often times they will incorporate 1740 01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,920 all of that into their uh decision 1741 01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:48,400 document 1742 01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:51,120 which means the town can it it's it's 1743 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:53,679 another belt and suspenders in addition 1744 01:14:53,679 --> 01:14:55,440 to whatever other requirements there 1745 01:14:55,440 --> 01:14:58,400 are. It means the building inspector can 1746 01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,760 go in anytime and say 1747 01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,000 the documentation. 1748 01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,960 There is also a construction phase um 1749 01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:08,560 anytime you're disturbing over an acre 1750 01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:10,239 of land. There's a construction phase 1751 01:15:10,239 --> 01:15:11,920 nifty stormwater pollution prevention 1752 01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,000 plan that's more construction related, 1753 01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:17,280 but that also is um impactful in making 1754 01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,440 sure that there's no issues during 1755 01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:20,880 construction. 1756 01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,960 Are these kind of details included in 1757 01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,199 the storm water and drainage? 1758 01:15:25,199 --> 01:15:27,120 Absolutely. Every single one. 1759 01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:28,480 Okay. Absolutely. 1760 01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:29,520 That's why 1761 01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:33,520 and we can tab or and or you know help 1762 01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:35,040 you know break it out and actually the 1763 01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:37,520 index the index of the stormwater report 1764 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:38,960 should it should show all the different 1765 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,640 exhibits. Um, it's pretty 1766 01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,159 about half of it is interesting to look 1767 01:15:44,159 --> 01:15:46,960 at. Maybe less, maybe third, but in the 1768 01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:48,480 first part of the report before you get 1769 01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:50,480 to all the hydrocad calculations, that's 1770 01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:51,920 where the meat of what you're probably 1771 01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:57,990 going to be looking for is 1772 01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,640 questions from the board. Any thought? 1773 01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:06,480 Happy to. Is there a is there a zone 1774 01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:10,719 um around the discharge area 1775 01:16:10,719 --> 01:16:15,440 where um any type of use is restricted? 1776 01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:17,520 So my question is you're going to you're 1777 01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,239 going to divide this lot off again and 1778 01:16:20,239 --> 01:16:26,159 your discharges are very close to the the newly proposed property line for 1779 01:16:26,159 --> 01:16:27,840 the the new lot. 1780 01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,400 Yeah. um 1781 01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:34,000 you know what's what kind of uh 1782 01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,400 safeguards there preventing the outflow 1783 01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:38,560 from flowing onto that other lot and 1784 01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:40,239 becoming the next tenants's problems 1785 01:16:40,239 --> 01:16:40,960 down the street. 1786 01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:44,000 Good question. Um so one is discharging 1787 01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,960 on a very uh flat area so it's not a 1788 01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:48,480 steep slope where we're running out of 1789 01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:50,560 the neighbor's property. Two uh we 1790 01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,199 calculate the apron of the you know 1791 01:16:53,199 --> 01:16:54,719 there's a flared end familiar with a 1792 01:16:54,719 --> 01:16:56,640 flared end looks like. So the you know 1793 01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,280 this will be likely an HDPE flared end 1794 01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:01,520 connected to the HDPE pipe. And then 1795 01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,840 from there we calculate an apron energy 1796 01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,239 dissipator. Um that's calculated based 1797 01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:08,960 on the velocities of the of the pipe 1798 01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:10,960 that are anticipated. And that is a 1799 01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,840 certain distance off of so these aprons 1800 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:15,760 that you see these are rip wrap aprons 1801 01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,400 angular stone 4 to 6 in angular stone 1802 01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,040 that's placed um at the end of the pipe 1803 01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:23,520 to dissipate any sort of velocity. So 1804 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:25,280 then it and then from there it could 1805 01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,760 basically sheet flow um and dissipate 1806 01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:29,920 out into you know the sandy soils that 1807 01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:31,840 we have 1808 01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:33,600 again already treated 1809 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:35,760 up here you know here and here 1810 01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:37,760 is it sort of like a swale is there like 1811 01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:39,360 a basin I mean 1812 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,679 uh so there's a basin here but this area 1813 01:17:41,679 --> 01:17:44,000 this discharge here so first of all the 1814 01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:45,840 discharge from the roof leaders is 1815 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:47,360 pretty straightforward in that it goes 1816 01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,280 just into that basin and exfiltrates 1817 01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:51,440 through the bottom. Um, this here is a 1818 01:17:51,440 --> 01:17:53,360 discharge. And again, that's just that's 1819 01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:57,199 just metering flow out at a certain rate 1820 01:17:57,199 --> 01:17:59,520 to this point based on what's already 1821 01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:01,920 generally going there from the site um 1822 01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,520 pre-development conditions. 1823 01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,560 Would you expect that like if we have a 1824 01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,199 uh a thunderstorm with with heavy rain, 1825 01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:13,199 say we got a a 4 in thunderstorm over 1826 01:18:13,199 --> 01:18:16,320 couple hours is not that unusual. I 1827 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:17,440 mean, if you're lucky, you don't get 1828 01:18:17,440 --> 01:18:20,080 them, but if you do, would that fill up? 1829 01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:21,920 Would that would there be a 1830 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:22,400 good question, 1831 01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:23,920 a leaking effect there? 1832 01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,560 Um, so that's the attenuation component 1833 01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,440 of the subsurface. Um, there are very 1834 01:18:29,440 --> 01:18:31,920 specific storm events that D has us 1835 01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,320 designed for and they do have uh 1836 01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:36,640 rainfall data in the report associated 1837 01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:38,080 with each one of those items. So, say 1838 01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,320 it's the 100red-year storm based on the 1839 01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:41,920 requirements for calculation of the 1840 01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:43,760 100red-year storm. We use the same storm 1841 01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:45,679 event pre-development, post-development, 1842 01:18:45,679 --> 01:18:47,600 obviously different conditions. Those 1843 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:50,800 two numbers generate a CFS for for that 1844 01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:52,560 design point. Pre-development and 1845 01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:54,640 post-development. And then again, the 1846 01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,760 size of this is based on those numbers. 1847 01:18:57,760 --> 01:18:59,679 How big this gets is based on how 1848 01:18:59,679 --> 01:19:01,360 quickly it exfiltrates through the 1849 01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:03,760 bottom of the system, what's coming into 1850 01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:06,400 it, and what we're allowed to to 1851 01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:08,560 discharge based on the pre-development 1852 01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:09,040 condition. 1853 01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:10,400 And CFS is 1854 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:12,239 cubic feet per second. It's a 1855 01:19:12,239 --> 01:19:13,360 measurement of the amount of water 1856 01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:16,000 coming out. Sorry. 1857 01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,560 Well, in the storm water report, I'm 1858 01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,040 imagining there's probably 1859 01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:22,719 um 1860 01:19:22,719 --> 01:19:25,199 reporting criteria and reporting 1861 01:19:25,199 --> 01:19:28,400 requirements that um have to be filed 1862 01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:30,400 with with certain entities, probably the 1863 01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:34,239 D and all that. Um, 1864 01:19:34,239 --> 01:19:37,520 are there provisions that someone would 1865 01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,719 notify the town of Sunderland if this 1866 01:19:40,719 --> 01:19:43,760 system somehow started not performing up 1867 01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:47,679 to par? Is the town going to know that system is faulty? 1868 01:19:47,679 --> 01:19:49,679 It's a good question. Um, I would say 1869 01:19:49,679 --> 01:19:51,920 that you could add a condition. The 1870 01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:53,760 enforcement of that condition or 1871 01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,000 understanding that condition is going to 1872 01:19:56,000 --> 01:20:00,239 be based on the inspections. So, um, 1873 01:20:00,239 --> 01:20:02,080 it's a good question. I think it's a 1874 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,040 good question for any site. Um to be 1875 01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,840 fair, it's monitoring of the system 1876 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,000 properly and it's also communicating 1877 01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:12,400 with the town properly. U for example, 1878 01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:15,600 let's say you had a somebody spilled 1879 01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,040 oil, change their oil in the parking 1880 01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:19,280 lot, spill oil, right? Then they would 1881 01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:21,440 have to, you know, whoever's operating 1882 01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:24,239 the store would have to um review that, 1883 01:20:24,239 --> 01:20:26,320 call Clean Harbors or somebody, you 1884 01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:28,000 know, have that handled properly, you 1885 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,400 know, file all the proper paperwork. The 1886 01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,719 good news is if that happens, it gets 1887 01:20:32,719 --> 01:20:34,960 caught in our system. It gets caught in 1888 01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:36,800 our net, so to speak, right? Gets caught 1889 01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,760 in the in the um treatment train before 1890 01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,480 getting to the subsurface system. Um if 1891 01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:44,960 for some reason somehow it got there, um 1892 01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:46,480 you know, they would need to address 1893 01:20:46,480 --> 01:20:48,960 that accordingly. Um but these 1894 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,360 safeguards that are in place are likely 1895 01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,880 not in place on anything developed prior 1896 01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,880 to 2008. C certainly not to this extent. 1897 01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:00,560 These these regulations came out in 1898 01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:03,040 2008. These are the newest storm water 1899 01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:05,120 regulations that we're adhering to. And 1900 01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:07,520 there's also some recent rainfall data 1901 01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:09,600 that we've increased the calculations 1902 01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:11,360 based on because a lot of people are 1903 01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:12,880 talking about what what is really the 1904 01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:14,480 100red-year storm. There's some more 1905 01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:16,719 conservative estimates rainfall data for 1906 01:21:16,719 --> 01:21:18,159 the 100red-year storm which is based on 1907 01:21:18,159 --> 01:21:22,719 a 24-hour um time frame. So a lot of the 1908 01:21:22,719 --> 01:21:24,800 new calculations that are done are 1909 01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:30,229 assuming those that new rainfall data. 1910 01:21:30,239 --> 01:21:33,199 So it's pretty thorough process that we 1911 01:21:33,199 --> 01:21:34,480 end up having to go through. 1912 01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:36,800 The but the enforcement agency is going 1913 01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,800 to be the town building inspector. 1914 01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:42,880 So the enforcement agency there's 1915 01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:44,640 multiple enforcement agencies depending 1916 01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:46,480 on the nature of the anticipated 1917 01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:48,080 problem. So I'm not sure. 1918 01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,360 Does the D have authority over this or 1919 01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:52,239 absolutely 1920 01:21:52,239 --> 01:21:54,000 in some regard? Yes. From a wetlands and 1921 01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,480 waterway standpoint, no. 1922 01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:59,120 But there are certain aspects that could 1923 01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,320 potentially trigger a D review or 1924 01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:03,920 response if there was something 1925 01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:06,239 catastrophic that happened. Otherwise, 1926 01:22:06,239 --> 01:22:08,320 it's proper maintenance. if they end up 1927 01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:10,400 having, you know, if they end up having, 1928 01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:13,040 you know, um, you know, over time, if 1929 01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:15,280 they're not maintained, you know, if 1930 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:17,520 things aren't maintained 20 or 30 years 1931 01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:18,800 from now, you could start to have, you 1932 01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:20,000 know, it's just like a septic system, 1933 01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,840 right? They have sometimes have a shelf 1934 01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:23,440 life depending on how well people take 1935 01:22:23,440 --> 01:22:25,280 care of them or if you have 17 kids like 1936 01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:26,400 I do. 1937 01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,400 So, that that's the point of my question 1938 01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:34,960 on the ongoing maintenance. Are there um are there reporting 1939 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,880 requirements for the ongoing maintenance 1940 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,080 where you have to prove that you're maintaining it and 1941 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,600 okay ongoing the on maybe I'm sorry I'm 1942 01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,040 not describing it well 1943 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:48,320 the on andm plan has ongoing reporting 1944 01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:52,400 requirements that are required and your 1945 01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:55,040 board uh as well as the planning board 1946 01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:58,960 could condition their decision to to 1947 01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:00,960 have those provid provide either to your 1948 01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,199 board or to the building inspector or 1949 01:23:03,199 --> 01:23:06,239 whoever you uh designate as your 1950 01:23:06,239 --> 01:23:08,159 So in the absence of that where do those 1951 01:23:08,159 --> 01:23:10,320 reports go? 1952 01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:14,960 um one they're they uh defense depends 1953 01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:16,560 specifically but a lot of times they go 1954 01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:18,480 to the conservation commission uh 1955 01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:19,679 typically they would go to the permanent 1956 01:23:19,679 --> 01:23:20,880 granting authority here there's no 1957 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:23,199 conservation commission jurisdiction so 1958 01:23:23,199 --> 01:23:25,600 I think that probably would you know if 1959 01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:26,960 you guys want them you guys could get 1960 01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:28,800 them but they're required to do them 1961 01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,120 based on the D regs in reporting for 1962 01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:32,800 that 1963 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,040 I don't know that D necessarily reviews 1964 01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:36,239 that stuff I can't imagine 1965 01:23:36,239 --> 01:23:40,080 I I I just I just know that and I mean 1966 01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:42,719 things tend to sound great at the design 1967 01:23:42,719 --> 01:23:46,880 stage and the pre you know man pre 1968 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,520 construction phase but maintenance is 1969 01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:51,760 the first thing that goes out the window 1970 01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:52,400 and uh 1971 01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:53,120 yeah I don't 1972 01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:54,880 and he's saying you know you you cited 1973 01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:56,800 an instance well somebody dumped their 1974 01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:58,960 oil in the thing I mean who's going to 1975 01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,040 report that I mean the employees at 1976 01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:02,880 Dollar General I mean 1977 01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,120 or or who that's 1978 01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,639 yeah so any so I can't design for stupid 1979 01:24:08,639 --> 01:24:11,199 I Don't I could I you know somebody 1980 01:24:11,199 --> 01:24:16,880 asked me once we were we were putting a kiosk up and somebody asked me you 1981 01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:18,159 know what if somebody parks in the 1982 01:24:18,159 --> 01:24:19,360 middle of the street and runs out of 1983 01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:21,199 their car into the ATM and leaves their 1984 01:24:21,199 --> 01:24:22,719 car running 1985 01:24:22,719 --> 01:24:24,080 arrest them. 1986 01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:27,280 So I mean we can we all the safeguards 1987 01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,080 are in place. The mechanism would be to 1988 01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:32,560 connect the D requirements that are in 1989 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,639 the on andm to your permits. That's the that's the protection. I 1990 01:24:36,639 --> 01:24:39,280 would have you uh confer with town 1991 01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:40,880 council with regard to how to do that 1992 01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:44,950 the best way. 1993 01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:47,280 You know, I know that you you say uh you 1994 01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,800 know, I know there's a big fat uh storm 1995 01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:52,239 water and drainage report that we 1996 01:24:52,239 --> 01:24:55,600 haven't even got into on some of these 1997 01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,120 situations and are covered in there. Uh, 1998 01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:02,560 I'm thinking that uh I'm just thinking 1999 01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:04,880 out loud for the board that we may want 2000 01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:06,639 to have 2001 01:25:06,639 --> 01:25:09,760 some outside review or paper somebody. I 2002 01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:12,480 mean because this a lot of this is Greek 2003 01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:16,159 to me, you know, but the common sense of 2004 01:25:16,159 --> 01:25:20,000 part of me says that 2005 01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,679 I fear that uh the water that's going to 2006 01:25:23,679 --> 01:25:26,159 get discharged into the ground is going 2007 01:25:26,159 --> 01:25:28,800 to is is going to be compromised by this 2008 01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:32,000 use. And you can say, hey, when when 2009 01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,760 first installed, all the filters work 2010 01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:36,480 great, everything works great. uh you 2011 01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:38,480 know what happens when maintenance falls 2012 01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:40,880 down and uh you know something happens 2013 01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,400 and uh 2014 01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:46,080 that that is a concern for me. 2015 01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:48,800 So I will tell you we have been through 2016 01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:51,120 hundreds of peer reviews. If it wasn't 2017 01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,199 for the cost of my client I would be so 2018 01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:55,520 bold as to welcome that because frankly 2019 01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:57,280 it gives you the data you need to make a 2020 01:25:57,280 --> 01:25:59,600 proper decision. We stand by our storm 2021 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:01,360 water report. for some reason they can 2022 01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:03,440 find some little detail in our 2023 01:26:03,440 --> 01:26:05,520 calculations that can be improved upon 2024 01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:08,560 or clarified we you know they have to 2025 01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:11,600 they they have to justify their um you 2026 01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:13,440 know their job in in doing the peer 2027 01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:14,880 review but we've been through hundreds 2028 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,440 of them and I will tell you not one has 2029 01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:19,840 changed the drainage system it might it 2030 01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:22,000 might we might be revising little calcs 2031 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,520 or maybe there's you know make sure 2032 01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:25,520 somebody signs the elicit discharge you 2033 01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:26,960 know statement or something like that 2034 01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:29,520 but you know as far as you know peer 2035 01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,080 reviews is it will slow the process but 2036 01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:34,880 it actually will you know frankly all 2037 01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:36,239 these questions that you're asking and 2038 01:26:36,239 --> 01:26:37,840 we're talking about hypotheticals kind 2039 01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:39,600 of go away when the peer review happens 2040 01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:42,320 so in a way it's you know fairly 2041 01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:42,960 reasonable 2042 01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:49,679 well I I know that uh you know the this particular uh drainage report 2043 01:26:49,679 --> 01:26:53,280 arrived late last week and I I forwarded 2044 01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:55,520 it to the conservation commission to you 2045 01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:58,719 know local experts uh to to take a look 2046 01:26:58,719 --> 01:27:00,080 at it and quite frankly frankly they 2047 01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:02,960 didn't have the time uh to provide a 2048 01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:07,760 response for today's hearing. So, uh, I, 2049 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:09,600 you know, maybe, you know, if we get to 2050 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:13,920 it, maybe just a superficial, uh, 2051 01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:15,920 you know, presentation on the storm 2052 01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:17,920 water devel. I mean, I don't know if 2053 01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:20,159 it's even presentable. I mean, it is, 2054 01:27:20,159 --> 01:27:22,239 you know, maybe kind of is what it is, 2055 01:27:22,239 --> 01:27:24,880 but it certainly, uh, we don't have 2056 01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:27,360 experts on this board that can look at 2057 01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:29,199 this thing and say 2058 01:27:29,199 --> 01:27:31,120 that doesn't sound right or that looks 2059 01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:32,080 too small. You know, 2060 01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:33,840 we fully respect that. I guess all we 2061 01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:36,080 would ask is if if you feel that way, 2062 01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:37,679 it'd be nice for you to come to that 2063 01:27:37,679 --> 01:27:39,360 determination this evening. So, if there 2064 01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:41,440 is a peer review that is going to be 2065 01:27:41,440 --> 01:27:43,280 requested, we're not just kicking it 2066 01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:45,679 down the road. Um, to me, you know, we 2067 01:27:45,679 --> 01:27:46,960 have the traffic information, we have 2068 01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:48,719 the site information. If there are 2069 01:27:48,719 --> 01:27:50,080 questions related to that, we're happy 2070 01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:52,000 to address those. And frankly, we 2071 01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:54,719 welcome that. I really in a way it's 2072 01:27:54,719 --> 01:27:56,719 going to when they write you a letter 2073 01:27:56,719 --> 01:27:58,320 saying that we have no further questions 2074 01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:01,120 on the stormwater report there's nothing 2075 01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:04,480 better for guys like this to address if 2076 01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:06,719 there was ever a concern about that so 2077 01:28:06,719 --> 01:28:08,000 might be prudent 2078 01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,960 right I I I mean Stuart 2079 01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,440 well I I I agree that it's not our 2080 01:28:13,440 --> 01:28:16,639 expertise um I would have a question as 2081 01:28:16,639 --> 01:28:17,840 to whether the planning board has 2082 01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:19,600 started their hearing 2083 01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:20,159 no 2084 01:28:20,159 --> 01:28:22,159 okay what what I think would be a shame 2085 01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:24,159 is both boards asked for it. That would 2086 01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:26,639 be a waste of somebody's money, 2087 01:28:26,639 --> 01:28:28,880 but I think it's very reasonable to ask 2088 01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,400 for peer review on storm water. 2089 01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:33,920 Um, 2090 01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:36,560 and even though he referenced that it 2091 01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:37,920 might cost us, it should be the 2092 01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:38,880 applicant's cost. 2093 01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:39,199 Correct. 2094 01:28:39,199 --> 01:28:43,199 No, that that we have, 2095 01:28:43,199 --> 01:28:49,910 you know, my client just use TP4 2096 01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:51,840 there. There's a point that that needs 2097 01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:55,280 to be made that he was too modest about 2098 01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:57,760 and I've litigated this issue. 2099 01:28:57,760 --> 01:28:59,840 Massachusetts stormwater standards still 2100 01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:02,960 just use TP40, right? US Geological 2101 01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:06,719 Survey technical paper 40 which only has 2102 01:29:06,719 --> 01:29:10,560 drainage data I think from 1936 2103 01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:14,639 or 37 up to like 1956. 2104 01:29:14,639 --> 01:29:17,920 and more than one engineer has told me 2105 01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,239 an engineer can come in here and or or 2106 01:29:20,239 --> 01:29:22,000 somebody like Rob and say, "Oh, we 2107 01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:24,000 satisfied all the legal standards." 2108 01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:26,320 Well, the problem is given what's 2109 01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,280 happened in the last 80 years, that 2110 01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:31,760 100red-year storm is now a 25-ear storm. 2111 01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:34,639 So, what Rob has done, and he wasn't 2112 01:29:34,639 --> 01:29:37,600 legally required to do it, is used 2113 01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:41,120 modern precipitation data. 2114 01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:43,520 But not to bore you, the reality is 2115 01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:45,440 you're using modern precipitation data 2116 01:29:45,440 --> 01:29:47,280 for the pre-development condition and 2117 01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:48,800 the post-development condition. You're 2118 01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:50,560 designing for the delta between the two. 2119 01:29:50,560 --> 01:29:52,560 So it actually doesn't change that much, 2120 01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:54,159 believe it or not. 2121 01:29:54,159 --> 01:29:56,239 Darn. I'm glad you weren my opponent 2122 01:29:56,239 --> 01:29:59,199 when I litigated that last. Okay. But 2123 01:29:59,199 --> 01:30:02,159 it's good to know that in other words, 2124 01:30:02,159 --> 01:30:04,719 he's doing it he's doing it right. And 2125 01:30:04,719 --> 01:30:07,840 certainly what I've seen um and I've 2126 01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:12,639 used them you know Tai and Bond um Bucky 2127 01:30:12,639 --> 01:30:15,600 Sparkle and Ammeris uh Brookshire Design 2128 01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:18,719 I mean any anybody the guy at Tai and 2129 01:30:18,719 --> 01:30:20,560 Bond is named Tim Grace he's found in 2130 01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:26,400 East Hampton um in other words there's plenty of people around who they 2131 01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,400 do these storm water reports and they 2132 01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:31,120 also do 2133 01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:31,360 peer 2134 01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:33,840 review with with the university we have 2135 01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:36,639 I I think uh the conservation commission 2136 01:30:36,639 --> 01:30:39,520 is very much aware of the wealth of 2137 01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:41,920 one of the items through the chair is if 2138 01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:44,560 in fact the board does feel that a storm 2139 01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:46,320 water peer review is appropriate which I 2140 01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:48,960 don't necessarily disagree um I would 2141 01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:50,639 want to make sure that you know in a 2142 01:30:50,639 --> 01:30:54,000 perfect world there was a vote taken 2143 01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:55,440 we haven't been before the planning 2144 01:30:55,440 --> 01:30:58,000 board so to to Mr. Beckley's, you know, 2145 01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:00,239 comment. We would like that this 2146 01:31:00,239 --> 01:31:03,679 stormwater report is designed and the 2147 01:31:03,679 --> 01:31:05,520 review process is designed so that it is 2148 01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:07,520 suitable to the planning board as well 2149 01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:09,920 as zoning board of appeals. Uh in 2150 01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:12,080 addition, I think we want to resolve 2151 01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:14,080 some of these legal questions hopefully 2152 01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:17,360 in short order before we you know you 2153 01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:19,120 know some if there's a legal battle 2154 01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:21,440 happening over some basic zoning 2155 01:31:21,440 --> 01:31:22,239 something else. 2156 01:31:22,239 --> 01:31:23,760 Yeah. Yeah. you probably want to get 2157 01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:25,199 just beyond 2158 01:31:25,199 --> 01:31:27,280 I think fundamentally I'm in agreement 2159 01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:30,400 with what you say uh that and usually 2160 01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:33,199 the the planning board chair is here but 2161 01:31:33,199 --> 01:31:36,000 I think uh you know any sort of peer 2162 01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:39,600 review or engineering review or whatever 2163 01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:43,120 uh that uh it would it would satis it 2164 01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:44,800 would satisfy both so we don't get you 2165 01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:46,800 double jeopardy I mean we're not that 2166 01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:51,600 mean um uh but but the plan there's 2167 01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:54,159 nobody here from the planning board uh 2168 01:31:54,159 --> 01:31:56,880 and or there's nobody in authority and 2169 01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:58,800 you know I by no means I I don't think 2170 01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:01,280 we're ready to take a vote for the 2171 01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:03,679 reason that you say uh cuz that would 2172 01:32:03,679 --> 01:32:07,199 pro I'd probably do that uh you know at 2173 01:32:07,199 --> 01:32:09,840 the next hearing. I would this would 2174 01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:12,000 probably be a lead item other than you 2175 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,560 know resolving the thing that we spent 2176 01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,120 the first 3/4 of an hour talking about. 2177 01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:21,440 uh but uh you know that would be part of 2178 01:32:21,440 --> 01:32:25,360 it and also we'd talk about uh peer 2179 01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:28,159 review and whatever 2180 01:32:28,159 --> 01:32:30,159 I know there's a process for it. I'm not 2181 01:32:30,159 --> 01:32:35,600 familiar with it at the top of my uh at the top of my head how that works but 2182 01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:39,120 uh uh there is we we can request uh a 2183 01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:40,800 peer review consultant review or 2184 01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:42,719 whatever that that 2185 01:32:42,719 --> 01:32:43,600 falls on the 2186 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:47,600 it's chapter 44 section 53G of the mass 2187 01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:48,719 general laws. 2188 01:32:48,719 --> 01:32:49,520 Okay. 2189 01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:50,800 And that but 2190 01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:52,159 I don't know that off the top of my 2191 01:32:52,159 --> 01:32:54,320 head. I know it exists and when it comes 2192 01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:57,040 time to to site it we'll have it. Thank 2193 01:32:57,040 --> 01:32:59,040 you. 2194 01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:01,520 Can you make any peer reviews any 2195 01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:04,960 stipulation? So permits are granted. 2196 01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:08,080 Let's say a permit is subject to a pure 2197 01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:09,520 review of the water. 2198 01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:14,960 I I I'm I wouldn't I I wouldn't I mean I I 2199 01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:16,719 don't that doesn't sound like a good 2200 01:33:16,719 --> 01:33:17,840 idea to me. Uh 2201 01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:19,199 putting the car before the horse. 2202 01:33:19,199 --> 01:33:21,280 Yeah. I mean I I think cuz I mean if 2203 01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,480 we're going to make a decision on uh you 2204 01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:26,239 know one of the things is impact of 2205 01:33:26,239 --> 01:33:28,560 storm water and drainage 2206 01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:30,159 storm water management and then 2207 01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:32,159 qualities of the natural environment. I 2208 01:33:32,159 --> 01:33:34,000 think we need to know the answers to 2209 01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:38,480 this uh to before we say you know before 2210 01:33:38,480 --> 01:33:41,679 we start balancing it and saying is it 2211 01:33:41,679 --> 01:33:44,239 you know does it are the detrimental 2212 01:33:44,239 --> 01:33:46,239 effects overbalance the beneficial you 2213 01:33:46,239 --> 01:33:49,120 know that sort of thing. So I I 2214 01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:50,639 especially something this complex I 2215 01:33:50,639 --> 01:33:53,199 wouldn't you know pass it off to a 2216 01:33:53,199 --> 01:33:55,120 stipulation grant a conditional I'm 2217 01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,920 getting if you know 2218 01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:00,239 peer reviews are always done before you 2219 01:34:00,239 --> 01:34:01,360 grant the firm right 2220 01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,760 well I think rock maybe trying to 2221 01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:07,360 facilitate things or whatever but I 2222 01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:08,719 think it's going to take whatever time 2223 01:34:08,719 --> 01:34:11,360 it takes so 2224 01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:14,480 hold on uh any 2225 01:34:14,480 --> 01:34:17,360 story 2226 01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:19,920 Why? Just looking for an explanation why 2227 01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:22,080 we won't go forward tonight with that 2228 01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:25,270 vote. 2229 01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:28,480 Well, I mean it was I mean whether we do 2230 01:34:28,480 --> 01:34:30,639 it at the beginning I mean we're not 2231 01:34:30,639 --> 01:34:33,520 going to be whether we do it at the end 2232 01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:35,760 of this session or the beginning of the 2233 01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,880 next one. I mean I I I you were saying 2234 01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:40,719 that and first of all we don't have 2235 01:34:40,719 --> 01:34:43,520 planning board 2236 01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:46,560 you know you know agreement on what 2237 01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,760 we're talking about uh 2238 01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:51,360 and 2239 01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:54,800 chairman we were asked um I believe I 2240 01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:57,760 think maybe even by town council not to 2241 01:34:57,760 --> 01:34:59,360 apply to the planning board. actually 2242 01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:00,719 had applied to the planning board 2243 01:35:00,719 --> 01:35:02,880 because we felt that it was logical to 2244 01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:05,280 do these two permits in concert and have 2245 01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:07,840 input from the planning board. Um that 2246 01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:09,600 was our goal. We were asked not to do 2247 01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,440 that. We were asked to go directly to 2248 01:35:11,440 --> 01:35:14,400 the ZBA first. So 2249 01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:18,320 and that is true. I I I have I mean 2250 01:35:18,320 --> 01:35:21,440 so we would have preferred to go the 2251 01:35:21,440 --> 01:35:23,440 other route but we respectfully you know 2252 01:35:23,440 --> 01:35:25,600 entered into this process. I think what 2253 01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:30,560 would be logical and prudent would be to 2254 01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:33,040 request that the DVA take a vote a vote 2255 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:35,440 I'm sorry about the peer review this 2256 01:35:35,440 --> 01:35:38,320 evening so that you guys can then secure 2257 01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,960 quotes from you know respective 2258 01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:42,239 engineering firms right 2259 01:35:42,239 --> 01:35:44,000 based on that and then at the next 2260 01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:46,639 meeting you would have those quotes we 2261 01:35:46,639 --> 01:35:48,719 would be presented to those quotes my 2262 01:35:48,719 --> 01:35:50,960 client would be required to agree to 2263 01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:53,360 that and pay the fee so that that work 2264 01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:58,320 can be done because what h you know it's t it's you know time and and 2265 01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:00,400 frankly if we're kicking it down the 2266 01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:01,679 road you know not that we don't have 2267 01:36:01,679 --> 01:36:03,280 other items we can continue to address 2268 01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:04,880 those other items but at least we would 2269 01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:06,639 be working towards a peer review you 2270 01:36:06,639 --> 01:36:07,920 would have the information that you're 2271 01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:11,040 talking about um so respectfully I would 2272 01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:13,280 ask through the chair if it's possible 2273 01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:15,600 for you if you think the members are 2274 01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:17,760 going to want a peer review of the storm 2275 01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:22,400 water that we you know get that agreed 2276 01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:24,560 upon and then I believe you need to go 2277 01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:27,679 out for quotes um and and then provide 2278 01:36:27,679 --> 01:36:29,199 us that information and we would agree 2279 01:36:29,199 --> 01:36:31,040 and write my client will write the 2280 01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:32,239 check. 2281 01:36:32,239 --> 01:36:34,639 And and one other point, I think it was 2282 01:36:34,639 --> 01:36:37,120 actually the same young lawyer who you 2283 01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:39,199 heard from tonight. I went to the 2284 01:36:39,199 --> 01:36:41,040 planning board. I wrote an opposing 2285 01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:44,560 memo. Um, I did everything I could to 2286 01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:47,760 get them involved in the process and 2287 01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,320 with the backing of that lawyer, they 2288 01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:54,239 absolutely declined and we decided we're 2289 01:36:54,239 --> 01:36:55,440 not going to fight with them. We're 2290 01:36:55,440 --> 01:36:57,440 going to come to you. But since the 2291 01:36:57,440 --> 01:36:59,920 board, the planning board adamantly 2292 01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:01,840 backed by this same lawyer took the 2293 01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,800 position that you need to decide first, 2294 01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:06,880 I think what in effect they've done is 2295 01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:08,960 they put it in your hands. I mean, if 2296 01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:11,760 you hire a peer reviewer and whatever 2297 01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:13,520 conditions the peer reviewer comes up 2298 01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:15,840 with are incorporated into whatever 2299 01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:18,800 decision you make, I think the planning 2300 01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:21,679 board has quite frankly made their bed. 2301 01:37:21,679 --> 01:37:23,679 In other words, they could have and 2302 01:37:23,679 --> 01:37:25,520 indeed if they want to change their mind 2303 01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:27,520 right now, so we can go forward, the 2304 01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:30,239 application's already in to them, then 2305 01:37:30,239 --> 01:37:31,760 that would be great and they could work 2306 01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:35,199 with you and we'd love to see that. But 2307 01:37:35,199 --> 01:37:36,960 in other words, and I'm trying to be 2308 01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:39,600 frank, um they're not going to be in a 2309 01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:41,760 very good position if you do the peer 2310 01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:43,840 review and then they say, "Oh, now we 2311 01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:46,400 want another peer review and we're going 2312 01:37:46,400 --> 01:37:49,920 to start all over." After having been so 2313 01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:51,840 adamant about saying, "We're going to 2314 01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:54,719 wait till you make a a decision." So 2315 01:37:54,719 --> 01:37:56,400 maybe, you know, they'd want to 2316 01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:59,920 reconsider or else I I like Rob said 2317 01:37:59,920 --> 01:38:02,080 because it takes time. We've both seen 2318 01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:03,840 that, you know, you got to put out 2319 01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:06,000 requests and then the engineers got to 2320 01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:09,679 make proposals and and so a vote tonight 2321 01:38:09,679 --> 01:38:12,159 would simply get the ball rolling cuz 2322 01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:16,960 it's going to take a while. Please, please. 2323 01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:18,960 You make some points I agree with. You 2324 01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:21,600 make some points I don't agree with so 2325 01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:26,000 much, but I think fundamentally uh I 2326 01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:32,000 mean I know the planning board made their 2327 01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:35,040 decision the way they did. I didn't 2328 01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:36,560 understand that. But I also know that 2329 01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:38,560 this is a unique situation. We haven't 2330 01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:42,639 had a uh a proposal of this type that 2331 01:38:42,639 --> 01:38:44,639 actually had 2332 01:38:44,639 --> 01:38:46,719 elements of both approvals from both 2333 01:38:46,719 --> 01:38:51,360 boards. So, it's it it's kind of unique and we're 2334 01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:53,360 feeling our way through it. So, how they 2335 01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:55,679 decided to approach it, they that's it. 2336 01:38:55,679 --> 01:38:58,480 Um 2337 01:38:58,480 --> 01:39:01,040 do you do you want me to try to explain 2338 01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,360 why we made the decision? Well, that's I 2339 01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:06,400 I'll say that Amanda, who is a associate 2340 01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:08,639 member on our our zoning board, is 2341 01:39:08,639 --> 01:39:10,719 actually a a a member of the planning 2342 01:39:10,719 --> 01:39:14,480 board. So, we have crosspollination. And 2343 01:39:14,480 --> 01:39:15,280 so, 2344 01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:18,719 we um thought similar to what was said 2345 01:39:18,719 --> 01:39:20,800 that if we were both deciding at the 2346 01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,199 same time, maybe you asked for a peer 2347 01:39:23,199 --> 01:39:25,119 review, we asked for a peer review or we 2348 01:39:25,119 --> 01:39:26,400 put a stipulation and you put a 2349 01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:28,239 stipulation that they would may be 2350 01:39:28,239 --> 01:39:30,880 competing. And so it made more sense to 2351 01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:33,600 put one first and then we would have 2352 01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:36,239 that as that was the first step and then 2353 01:39:36,239 --> 01:39:39,199 we would take the next step. And so, you 2354 01:39:39,199 --> 01:39:41,280 know, whatever we come up with, whatever 2355 01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:43,920 peer reviews, whatever stipulations that 2356 01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:46,239 if if this goes forward, that will be 2357 01:39:46,239 --> 01:39:47,920 taken into consideration when we 2358 01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:51,360 I would I would think that uh I you 2359 01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:53,760 know, I can work with the chairman of 2360 01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:55,600 the planning board to make sure that, 2361 01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:58,320 you know, but you know, whatever peer 2362 01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:01,040 review would satisfy both. I mean, I 2363 01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:02,239 think that's you just don't want to get 2364 01:40:02,239 --> 01:40:04,239 double jeopardy, you know, and I can 2365 01:40:04,239 --> 01:40:06,000 understand that. If it was some other 2366 01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:08,480 type of review, we would maybe have more 2367 01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:09,600 concern, but 2368 01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:11,679 stormwater peer reviews are 2369 01:40:11,679 --> 01:40:13,600 just through a quirk of the zoning 2370 01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:18,320 bylaws is that uh projects in the 2371 01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:21,440 watershed district fall under the 2372 01:40:21,440 --> 01:40:22,159 planning order. 2373 01:40:22,159 --> 01:40:23,440 Mhm. 2374 01:40:23,440 --> 01:40:26,080 So, 2375 01:40:26,080 --> 01:40:29,119 but we also have, you know, two of our 2376 01:40:29,119 --> 01:40:31,360 criteria has to do with storm water and 2377 01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,360 drainage and qualities of the natural 2378 01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:34,880 environment. So, it's sort of like 2379 01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:36,320 you're you're half pregnant. It's kind 2380 01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:38,239 of a tough situation to deal with, but 2381 01:40:38,239 --> 01:40:49,830 we will we'll deal with it. So, um, 2382 01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:54,880 uh, so I think, uh, shall Okay, I'm just 2383 01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:56,400 trying to figure out they have to make a 2384 01:40:56,400 --> 01:41:00,080 motion to uh, request a peer review, 2385 01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,159 put out 2386 01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:06,239 quotes for peer review of the storm 2387 01:41:06,239 --> 01:41:08,800 water and drainage report. 2388 01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:10,239 So, I thought you were steering us away 2389 01:41:10,239 --> 01:41:12,000 from that. So, I'm happy to make that 2390 01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:14,400 motion. 2391 01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:16,000 Yeah. To me, it doesn't make much 2392 01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:18,000 difference whether we do it 2393 01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:20,080 at the end of I'd be more comfortable 2394 01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:21,679 doing at the beginning of the next 2395 01:41:21,679 --> 01:41:23,600 hearing. 2396 01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:24,800 It saves a lot. 2397 01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:25,760 Yeah. Well, that's 2398 01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:27,199 So, that's the difference. 2399 01:41:27,199 --> 01:41:29,040 That's the only 2400 01:41:29,040 --> 01:41:31,840 Well, Rob, you had expressed some 2401 01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:32,960 concern, but maybe not. 2402 01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:34,400 You're going if you anticipate a peer 2403 01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:37,280 review, please now. That'd be great. 2404 01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:39,280 Possible. 2405 01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:42,400 Based on your experience and expertise, 2406 01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:44,000 do you expect this to cost more than 2407 01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:47,990 $10,000? 2408 01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:51,440 No. But I'm sure maybe somebody puts a 2409 01:41:51,440 --> 01:41:53,520 quote in. So the way that this 2410 01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:56,239 someone puts one in under 2411 01:41:56,239 --> 01:41:58,320 telling you that you don't need quotes. 2412 01:41:58,320 --> 01:41:59,280 Well, 2413 01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:02,480 so to so to clarify the I believe and 2414 01:42:02,480 --> 01:42:06,239 you know this intimately the the cost of 2415 01:42:06,239 --> 01:42:09,119 that cannot be disputed. I believe it's 2416 01:42:09,119 --> 01:42:11,040 only qualifications that can be disputed 2417 01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:12,560 and it's being paid for by the 2418 01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:13,840 applicant. 2419 01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:16,719 So I believe we're okay. And normally 2420 01:42:16,719 --> 01:42:19,440 what the the engineering firms will do 2421 01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:22,239 is they'll give you a written proposal 2422 01:42:22,239 --> 01:42:24,560 saying this is what we'll do and this is 2423 01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:27,119 what we'll charge for and then it's up 2424 01:42:27,119 --> 01:42:31,199 to you um to pick and at least in my 2425 01:42:31,199 --> 01:42:33,920 experience 10 grand is because they're 2426 01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:35,920 not doing the work. They're they're 2427 01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:38,639 reading the report and you've got like 2428 01:42:38,639 --> 01:42:40,960 somebody with PE, professional engineer 2429 01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:44,080 after their name who's who's essentially 2430 01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:48,800 saying, "Yeah, this is okay, but this, and this need to be changed." And 2431 01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:51,600 then Rob writes a response to it. And 2432 01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:53,840 hopefully we can make whatever changes 2433 01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:56,639 they say are needed. At which point you 2434 01:42:56,639 --> 01:42:59,280 have your person. And and the way the 2435 01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,320 statute works, say, is all we get to do 2436 01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:06,159 is pay for it. You hire the peer review 2437 01:43:06,159 --> 01:43:08,480 and we pay the money into an escrow 2438 01:43:08,480 --> 01:43:11,040 account. So the engineer and and of 2439 01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:12,560 course that's important in the real 2440 01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:14,480 world. The engineer sees the money's 2441 01:43:14,480 --> 01:43:16,719 coming from you all. So they know who 2442 01:43:16,719 --> 01:43:18,560 they're working for and you're the one 2443 01:43:18,560 --> 01:43:20,560 who picked. But that's I think part of 2444 01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:22,239 why we're so concerned about time 2445 01:43:22,239 --> 01:43:25,199 because after you vote, you got to ask 2446 01:43:25,199 --> 01:43:28,480 for the proposals and then you got to 2447 01:43:28,480 --> 01:43:29,760 pick who you're going to 2448 01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:31,119 have to receive them. We have to figure 2449 01:43:31,119 --> 01:43:33,280 out which one to go with. I'm trying to 2450 01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:35,040 think the last time we did this was 2451 01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:36,080 actually probably during the 2452 01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:38,400 comprehensive permits. We we had to 2453 01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:39,520 bring 2454 01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:41,040 you we had multip 2455 01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:43,360 we got unbelievable reports and and 2456 01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:45,600 stuff. There's a well over our head and 2457 01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:47,040 we got so 2458 01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:48,719 well and you can even have the peer 2459 01:43:48,719 --> 01:43:50,400 review engineer and I I don't know how 2460 01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:52,320 many times I've seen this have the peer 2461 01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:54,880 review engineer come to a meeting and 2462 01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:57,040 that could be included and then they 2463 01:43:57,040 --> 01:43:58,560 answer whatever questions you have. 2464 01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:00,159 And I think that's what happened. We 2465 01:44:00,159 --> 01:44:02,800 actually audience have questions, they 2466 01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:06,400 can ask questions too and then both you 2467 01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:09,119 and the folks who come to the meeting 2468 01:44:09,119 --> 01:44:11,520 know that an expert who works for the 2469 01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:15,360 town has also gone over it. 2470 01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:19,040 I I I I do want to add one thing. Uh I 2471 01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:20,800 did reach out to the conservation 2472 01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:23,520 commission and uh uh 2473 01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:24,960 I'm here 2474 01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:27,520 well you're you're one of them. I mean, 2475 01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:30,080 I reached out to Jen and I re I I 2476 01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:37,520 received uh a a memo from from Ellie Kurt, who's also on the 2477 01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:38,639 conservation commission, 2478 01:44:38,639 --> 01:44:39,840 also could not be here tonight. 2479 01:44:39,840 --> 01:44:41,440 Yeah. And Jen couldn't be here. She's 2480 01:44:41,440 --> 01:44:43,600 the chairman. But they did come back to 2481 01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:45,280 me and you know, they cited that, hey, 2482 01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:47,360 this thing just arrived last we really 2483 01:44:47,360 --> 01:44:50,880 can't give a a you know, a fair analysis 2484 01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:53,840 and and critique of it. and they both 2485 01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,960 suggested uh in in different words that 2486 01:44:56,960 --> 01:45:00,719 a uh having a qualified engineer do a 2487 01:45:00,719 --> 01:45:02,960 peer review. I'm putting words in their 2488 01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:05,040 mouth that not but essentially 2489 01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:07,360 as a whole board we're all strongly in 2490 01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:08,320 favor of that. 2491 01:45:08,320 --> 01:45:10,320 Yeah. So I I think uh there's there's 2492 01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:13,119 violent agreement here. So uh I think we 2493 01:45:13,119 --> 01:45:15,280 can go forward with that. Uh, can we 2494 01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:19,840 have a vote on uh voting to uh uh go 2495 01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:23,360 through the process of uh 2496 01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:25,199 getting a peer review, putting out 2497 01:45:25,199 --> 01:45:30,000 requests for quotes for peer reviews? Uh 2498 01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:32,000 I mean, is that a crooked motion? I 2499 01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:32,560 mean, 2500 01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:35,280 did Stuart make the motion? 2501 01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:37,520 Yeah, I would like to make that motion. 2502 01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:41,440 I would like to make it more crooked. 2503 01:45:41,440 --> 01:45:42,960 That's good. Tell tell a lawyer here 2504 01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:44,880 he's listening. 2505 01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:47,199 twist it. Is that a better word? 2506 01:45:47,199 --> 01:45:49,760 It's not a technical thing. It's just 2507 01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:52,000 voting just in effect just 2508 01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:53,199 voting to authorize 2509 01:45:53,199 --> 01:45:57,430 I mean 2510 01:45:57,440 --> 01:45:59,440 just do it that way. 2511 01:45:59,440 --> 01:46:09,109 voting authoriz 2512 01:46:09,119 --> 01:46:12,000 chair and the town administrator move 2513 01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:16,239 forward with um seeking proposals for 2514 01:46:16,239 --> 01:46:19,520 peer review relative to storm water. Um 2515 01:46:19,520 --> 01:46:23,679 and um just take the plain word and to 2516 01:46:23,679 --> 01:46:26,639 particularly note uh relative to the 2517 01:46:26,639 --> 01:46:29,760 groundwater acquered 2518 01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:34,080 district that um I guess I'll stop 2519 01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:35,440 there. 2520 01:46:35,440 --> 01:46:41,109 Second. 2521 01:46:41,119 --> 01:46:41,440 Yes. 2522 01:46:41,440 --> 01:46:44,639 Any discussion? Any comment? Okay. Uh 2523 01:46:44,639 --> 01:46:48,320 five uh full-time members. Oh, uh, 2524 01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:50,400 Palace, what do you say? 2525 01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:51,520 Stewart. 2526 01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:53,600 Yes. 2527 01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:54,400 James, 2528 01:46:54,400 --> 01:46:55,520 yes. 2529 01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:59,600 I say yes. James, number two. Uh I will 2530 01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:04,239 work with uh the town administrator and 2531 01:47:04,239 --> 01:47:07,040 uh and and I'll I'll incorporate the the 2532 01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:09,119 planning board uh just to make sure 2533 01:47:09,119 --> 01:47:12,159 they're uh you know that that that they 2534 01:47:12,159 --> 01:47:14,480 are 2535 01:47:14,480 --> 01:47:16,800 they will be have a part in this and 2536 01:47:16,800 --> 01:47:20,260 that they will be satisfied. So, 2537 01:47:20,260 --> 01:47:23,440 [Music] 2538 01:47:23,440 --> 01:47:27,350 okay. 2539 01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:30,709 So, 2540 01:47:30,719 --> 01:47:33,360 okay. I'm 2541 01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:35,760 Were there some questions from the 2542 01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:39,520 audience that that on what we've done so 2543 01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:41,040 far or at least on the most recent 2544 01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:45,990 stuff? 2545 01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:48,880 And who are you? Yes. Hi, I'm Carrie 2546 01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:51,360 Klein. I live at 50 South Silver Lane or 2547 01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:52,320 I got your I got your letter. 2548 01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:53,440 In this building, it's called 2549 01:47:53,440 --> 01:47:55,840 Silverlane. And I got your letter. 2550 01:47:55,840 --> 01:47:58,560 First, I want to thank you for really 2551 01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:04,800 good questions, Mr. Chair. I think and for going through the the special 2552 01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:08,880 permitting, all seven, which included 2553 01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:10,960 more than what was discussed tonight, 2554 01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:15,040 really good points. It also included 2555 01:48:15,040 --> 01:48:17,119 um economic well-being and general 2556 01:48:17,119 --> 01:48:20,320 well-being of the community. And also on 2557 01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:22,639 that same page, it talked about public 2558 01:48:22,639 --> 01:48:26,400 hearings. And this is uh we've lost 2559 01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:28,880 about half of the public that came to 2560 01:48:28,880 --> 01:48:31,600 speak because we're almost two hours 2561 01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:33,760 into the meeting. We have not heard the 2562 01:48:33,760 --> 01:48:36,080 public. And I know that there's so much 2563 01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:38,320 that has to be done. I also know that 2564 01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:40,320 the mandate of the Dollar General right 2565 01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:44,080 now is to have over 200,000 new Dollar 2566 01:48:44,080 --> 01:48:47,840 Generals in the next well while we're 2567 01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:50,880 having an economic downturn and and 2568 01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:53,040 developers want to develop and lawyers 2569 01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:54,159 want to talk 2570 01:48:54,159 --> 01:48:56,080 and the public hasn't spoken and I 2571 01:48:56,080 --> 01:48:58,560 wonder if you would consider having a 2572 01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:01,040 public hearing to hear the public. 2573 01:49:01,040 --> 01:49:05,280 Well, that's what we've had. We've had and I know we've had four 2574 01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:07,440 continuences, but one of them was we 2575 01:49:07,440 --> 01:49:10,159 opened it, set a new date, and yeah, but 2576 01:49:10,159 --> 01:49:12,719 we and I believe at each one of those we 2577 01:49:12,719 --> 01:49:13,920 had public input, 2578 01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:15,600 but it's always been the same like in 2579 01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:18,320 the last maybe one time it was an hour, 2580 01:49:18,320 --> 01:49:19,920 but the last little bits, you know, 2581 01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:23,679 where the developer and the lawyer most 2582 01:49:23,679 --> 01:49:27,119 I'll say that I've received uh you know, 2583 01:49:27,119 --> 01:49:33,040 written communication uh that uh that I you know, we got to have some sort of 2584 01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:34,800 order to these hearings. I mean, it 2585 01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:36,320 just, 2586 01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:39,600 you know, we try to do, you know, stuff 2587 01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:41,920 from the pres from the applicants and 2588 01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:43,520 then we go back and forth and then we 2589 01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:47,119 open it for for uh for for comments. 2590 01:49:47,119 --> 01:49:52,000 uh we've you know I think we give I mean 2591 01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:56,320 this is your time to to talk uh and uh 2592 01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:58,000 you know every you know our next hearing 2593 01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:00,320 we'll have another you know public 2594 01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:02,000 comment 2595 01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:04,880 uh you know session but you know we like 2596 01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:06,719 the public comment to be pertinent to 2597 01:50:06,719 --> 01:50:08,480 the discussion that we had today I mean 2598 01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:10,880 we've had you know you some of the 2599 01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:12,480 things you raised about Dollar General 2600 01:50:12,480 --> 01:50:14,639 and their you know mandate to have some 2601 01:50:14,639 --> 01:50:17,119 that is not a not of concern to the 2602 01:50:17,119 --> 01:50:19,679 zoning board. I mean, uh, we we'd like 2603 01:50:19,679 --> 01:50:23,840 comment relative to the decisions and 2604 01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:26,320 what we have to do as a board. I mean, 2605 01:50:26,320 --> 01:50:29,280 that's I I'm not here to, you know, say 2606 01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,920 what what kind of uh retailer, you know, 2607 01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:34,480 this this company is versus another 2608 01:50:34,480 --> 01:50:35,920 company that this one's better than the 2609 01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:38,800 other one that that, you know, we 2610 01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:41,679 consider, you know, social, economic, or 2611 01:50:41,679 --> 01:50:43,520 community needs a proposal. we can take 2612 01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:46,000 that into into play. But, you know, we 2613 01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:48,480 got much other bigger fish to fry here 2614 01:50:48,480 --> 01:50:49,920 and trying to come to a decision on 2615 01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:51,840 whether to grant the special permit. I 2616 01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:53,440 hope I hope you understand. And I did 2617 01:50:53,440 --> 01:50:56,239 get I believe it was you that sent the 2618 01:50:56,239 --> 01:51:00,320 letter to the uh uh to the uh town 2619 01:51:00,320 --> 01:51:02,239 clerk. Was it you? 2620 01:51:02,239 --> 01:51:03,199 It was. 2621 01:51:03,199 --> 01:51:06,470 Okay. 2622 01:51:06,480 --> 01:51:07,119 Yes. 2623 01:51:07,119 --> 01:51:09,920 My name is Susan Triel. I live at 43. 2624 01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:12,960 Hi, Susan. Um, and I this is my second 2625 01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:15,679 hearing and I don't know if these issues 2626 01:51:15,679 --> 01:51:18,320 have been addressed previously, so my 2627 01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:20,560 questions may have already been brought 2628 01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:23,840 up at some point. Um, has it has there 2629 01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:25,920 been discussion about the character of 2630 01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:28,000 this building, what it's going to look 2631 01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:29,280 like? Do we know 2632 01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:30,719 what this building is going to look 2633 01:51:30,719 --> 01:51:31,119 like? 2634 01:51:31,119 --> 01:51:34,000 Yeah, I mean, we have the uh the 2635 01:51:34,000 --> 01:51:35,520 drawings in 2636 01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:37,199 Well, I know there's drawings. Those are 2637 01:51:37,199 --> 01:51:39,280 flat drawings. But what I'm wondering 2638 01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:40,800 about is what is it going to look like? 2639 01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:42,560 What are the materials that are going to 2640 01:51:42,560 --> 01:51:45,199 be made out of? Is it a flat roof? Is it 2641 01:51:45,199 --> 01:51:48,719 going to match any of the the nature of 2642 01:51:48,719 --> 01:51:50,800 the character of our town? That's one 2643 01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:51,280 question. 2644 01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:54,239 I believe on Rob on the elevations 2645 01:51:54,239 --> 01:51:56,400 there's some details as to what the 2646 01:51:56,400 --> 01:51:57,360 materials are going to 2647 01:51:57,360 --> 01:51:59,360 what color is it going to look like. 2648 01:51:59,360 --> 01:52:00,880 Those are things that we these we have 2649 01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:02,719 no control over that Steve. These are 2650 01:52:02,719 --> 01:52:04,080 things that are 2651 01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:06,159 uh I mean there's been superficial 2652 01:52:06,159 --> 01:52:08,400 discussions about it. I mean, if if and 2653 01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:10,239 when we get to the point where you're 2654 01:52:10,239 --> 01:52:11,679 granting a special permit, we'll get 2655 01:52:11,679 --> 01:52:13,119 into the details. So, I 2656 01:52:13,119 --> 01:52:16,719 So, my second question then is um about 2657 01:52:16,719 --> 01:52:19,440 the potential fiscal impact. I'm 2658 01:52:19,440 --> 01:52:22,080 wondering if there's going to be tax 2659 01:52:22,080 --> 01:52:24,960 breaks for this company to bring their 2660 01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:27,360 business to this town. 2661 01:52:27,360 --> 01:52:28,960 I'm just asking. I don't know. 2662 01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:32,560 We don't I'm not aware of any tax breaks 2663 01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:34,480 being given by the town of Sunderland. 2664 01:52:34,480 --> 01:52:37,760 Uh I I mean we we consider you know 2665 01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:40,639 potential fiscal impacts but uh I'm not 2666 01:52:40,639 --> 01:52:44,400 aware of any uh incentives that the town 2667 01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:45,679 is giving to 2668 01:52:45,679 --> 01:52:47,360 is that would that be a decision that's 2669 01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:48,400 made here? 2670 01:52:48,400 --> 01:52:49,520 No. 2671 01:52:49,520 --> 01:52:50,800 Where would that be made? 2672 01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:52,239 It would have to go through town meeting 2673 01:52:52,239 --> 01:52:53,679 and that's not something that I I'm 2674 01:52:53,679 --> 01:52:56,159 aware anything being applied for. Um, 2675 01:52:56,159 --> 01:52:57,760 I'm sure they'd accept any tax breaks 2676 01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:00,639 you want to give them, but 2677 01:53:00,639 --> 01:53:02,719 I mean that 2678 01:53:02,719 --> 01:53:05,360 I I don't think that applies here. So, 2679 01:53:05,360 --> 01:53:06,080 thank you. 2680 01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:08,639 Real quick, uh, Mr. Chairman, um, can I 2681 01:53:08,639 --> 01:53:10,000 can give you this? I'll give you this 2682 01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:11,679 after the meeting. Um, this is the 2683 01:53:11,679 --> 01:53:12,159 elevation. 2684 01:53:12,159 --> 01:53:15,280 This draw this this drawing is on the uh 2685 01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:17,360 the website. 2686 01:53:17,360 --> 01:53:18,159 I was wondering 2687 01:53:18,159 --> 01:53:20,800 materials and colors and all that. So, 2688 01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:22,480 should be pretty descriptive right over 2689 01:53:22,480 --> 01:53:22,800 here. 2690 01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:24,239 So, this basically going to be a box 2691 01:53:24,239 --> 01:53:24,719 store. 2692 01:53:24,719 --> 01:53:25,040 Yeah. 2693 01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:27,199 Yes. with a flat roof. 2694 01:53:27,199 --> 01:53:29,760 Yes. Uh flat with a little slope. But 2695 01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:32,400 yes, but essentially it cut wall so it 2696 01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:33,119 look like a flat. 2697 01:53:33,119 --> 01:53:34,800 Is there a similar one nearby that we 2698 01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:35,760 could go look at? 2699 01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:39,679 Yeah, probably find 2700 01:53:39,679 --> 01:53:41,440 plug it into your GPS. 2701 01:53:41,440 --> 01:53:44,639 I've I visited several of these cuz I 2702 01:53:44,639 --> 01:53:45,920 drove through Westfield says, "Oh, 2703 01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:47,360 there's a Dollar General." So I walked 2704 01:53:47,360 --> 01:53:49,599 in there and there's one in Greenfield. 2705 01:53:49,599 --> 01:53:51,840 They're they're all over the place. And 2706 01:53:51,840 --> 01:53:55,280 I mean their general motif is like green 2707 01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,520 on green or green and yellow 2708 01:53:57,520 --> 01:53:59,119 in green field. 2709 01:53:59,119 --> 01:54:03,360 Let let me So I mean uh 2710 01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:04,960 you know there there's a certain look to 2711 01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:06,239 them. 2712 01:54:06,239 --> 01:54:08,320 But in Greenfield for example is part of 2713 01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:10,239 a shopping mall. This is going to be a 2714 01:54:10,239 --> 01:54:12,080 standalone building in the center of our 2715 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:12,560 town. 2716 01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:15,679 Y that's what's proposed. Yes. That's 2717 01:54:15,679 --> 01:54:17,599 what's proposed. And we will act on what 2718 01:54:17,599 --> 01:54:19,520 is prop. That's what we will act on what 2719 01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:20,560 is proposed 2720 01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:21,360 if it's helpful. 2721 01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:23,760 We don't do into fine detail of color of 2722 01:54:23,760 --> 01:54:25,280 the building and all that kind of stuff. 2723 01:54:25,280 --> 01:54:27,119 We just don't have we don't have control 2724 01:54:27,119 --> 01:54:28,400 over that. 2725 01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:29,679 No, it actually it actually is 2726 01:54:29,679 --> 01:54:31,920 presented. So the plan before you has 2727 01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,080 the color. So very specifically thins 2728 01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:37,280 thin brick ways coded you know color you 2729 01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:40,480 know 5W7. It's like literally specific 2730 01:54:40,480 --> 01:54:43,280 colors material types for the exterior 2731 01:54:43,280 --> 01:54:45,280 of the building are on a schedule for 2732 01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:48,320 that right here. and and we've put 2733 01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:51,280 stipulations on buildings uh of you know 2734 01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:52,800 storage buildings or whatever say it 2735 01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:55,520 must be muted colors or you know we you 2736 01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:59,440 know if necessary so I mean it it could 2737 01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:01,760 be covered in the stipulation but uh I 2738 01:55:01,760 --> 01:55:03,199 mean I think they're propo what they're 2739 01:55:03,199 --> 01:55:05,599 proposing right there you know that you 2740 01:55:05,599 --> 01:55:07,679 know they're they're proposing something 2741 01:55:07,679 --> 01:55:08,880 so 2742 01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:12,080 in their development the developer uh 2743 01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:13,760 does have a website and I do believe 2744 01:55:13,760 --> 01:55:15,360 they have a number of stores that 2745 01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:17,520 they've they've showcase on their 2746 01:55:17,520 --> 01:55:18,800 website. You might want to take a look 2747 01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:20,320 at that as well. Give you some feel for 2748 01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:22,080 what they've done in other communities. 2749 01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:25,760 Again, if there's input, we'll we'll try to take 2750 01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:26,159 I mean, 2751 01:55:26,159 --> 01:55:28,400 because there was a a 2752 01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:30,800 proposal for Cummington that I think was 2753 01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:32,239 ultimately denied. 2754 01:55:32,239 --> 01:55:34,960 I'm not that one because I didn't 2755 01:55:34,960 --> 01:55:38,560 I I don't know what that's a material. I 2756 01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:39,360 mean, 2757 01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:41,040 every everyone's different and I mean 2758 01:55:41,040 --> 01:55:44,880 it's this is ours. So, 2759 01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:46,960 thank you. 2760 01:55:46,960 --> 01:55:50,239 I'm Nancy Pik. I have lived at 187 North 2761 01:55:50,239 --> 01:55:53,040 Main Street for 33 years and I've been 2762 01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:55,040 on the conservation commission for more 2763 01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:58,320 than a dozen years I think. Um, 2764 01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:02,480 one question is um, Cliffside Apartments 2765 01:56:02,480 --> 01:56:04,560 as you mentioned has a drinking water 2766 01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:06,480 well that has a pumping zone that 2767 01:56:06,480 --> 01:56:08,239 intersects with the property line of the 2768 01:56:08,239 --> 01:56:10,400 development plan. A parking lot with 2769 01:56:10,400 --> 01:56:13,920 associated automobile fluids, road salt, 2770 01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:16,639 etc. can have an impact on their 2771 01:56:16,639 --> 01:56:18,320 drinking water system. And I'm wondering 2772 01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:20,560 if contact has been made with either 2773 01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:22,800 resident association or the owners like 2774 01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:24,719 have they been involved? Do they because 2775 01:56:24,719 --> 01:56:26,560 they are potentially drinking the 2776 01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:28,639 runoff. So, um 2777 01:56:28,639 --> 01:56:29,760 I think they're drinking their own 2778 01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:32,639 runoff too. 2779 01:56:32,639 --> 01:56:37,520 That's fair enough. But just 2780 01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:40,000 I'm not sure. their their uh parking 2781 01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:41,840 lots are attached to a 2782 01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:44,960 they're so we we can certainly show the 2783 01:56:44,960 --> 01:56:47,119 well location. All public water supplies 2784 01:56:47,119 --> 01:56:49,760 are listed with D. They have a very 2785 01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:52,800 specific detail of what the well yield 2786 01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:54,800 is. There's a radius as I had mentioned 2787 01:56:54,800 --> 01:56:57,040 between 100 communication are you 2788 01:56:57,040 --> 01:56:59,199 communicate like have they t you talked 2789 01:56:59,199 --> 01:57:00,880 to them and like do they know that this 2790 01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:01,760 is 2791 01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:04,080 I don't you know I I would think you 2792 01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:06,880 know I I talked to Fred Lauronitis who 2793 01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:09,920 is the uh our water commissioner because 2794 01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:12,719 we have a well but it's up mountain road 2795 01:57:12,719 --> 01:57:14,960 so it's he says that's you know not 2796 01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:17,920 really uh a factor for me but he said 2797 01:57:17,920 --> 01:57:20,800 boy if I had you know that that that 2798 01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:23,199 well at cliffside I mean I would I would 2799 01:57:23,199 --> 01:57:24,719 be here. You know, I'd be very concerned 2800 01:57:24,719 --> 01:57:26,639 about it. I'd be looking into it 2801 01:57:26,639 --> 01:57:28,239 there. Just for a correction, there's 2802 01:57:28,239 --> 01:57:30,719 three wells at close. Three bedrock 2803 01:57:30,719 --> 01:57:33,119 wells, you know, maybe 600 ft deep ft 2804 01:57:33,119 --> 01:57:34,480 total or each well. 2805 01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:35,760 Relatively shallow. 2806 01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:37,920 Yeah. I'm just curious why it didn't 2807 01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:39,840 show up on on any of these, 2808 01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:41,440 isn't it? What? 2809 01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,199 Okay. See, I don't know what I'm talking 2810 01:57:43,199 --> 01:57:43,599 about. 2811 01:57:43,599 --> 01:57:45,360 You know, the well screens could be 2812 01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:47,360 anywhere from near the surface down to 2813 01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:50,000 some depth. But I'm just curious why 2814 01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:52,239 they those locations never showed up in 2815 01:57:52,239 --> 01:57:54,800 any of the diagrams or they're in you 2816 01:57:54,800 --> 01:57:57,040 interim wellhead protection areas. We're 2817 01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:59,280 not we're not required to show them 2818 01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:00,800 outside 2819 01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:01,840 water 2820 01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:03,440 in the storm water. Are you saying it's 2821 01:58:03,440 --> 01:58:04,000 not in here? 2822 01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:06,480 So the well the well radiuses radi that 2823 01:58:06,480 --> 01:58:08,159 you're talking about don't intersect. 2824 01:58:08,159 --> 01:58:08,719 They do. 2825 01:58:08,719 --> 01:58:10,080 Yeah. I can show you. 2826 01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:11,679 Okay. So with our site 2827 01:58:11,679 --> 01:58:12,080 Yeah. 2828 01:58:12,080 --> 01:58:12,960 with our disturbance. 2829 01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:14,639 Yeah. In the northwest corner. 2830 01:58:14,639 --> 01:58:17,360 Yeah. with our with our disturbance, our 2831 01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:18,480 work, our storm water. 2832 01:58:18,480 --> 01:58:20,239 Yeah. In the northwest corner of the 2833 01:58:20,239 --> 01:58:21,679 property. 2834 01:58:21,679 --> 01:58:23,199 You want to show me? 2835 01:58:23,199 --> 01:58:25,119 Well, 2836 01:58:25,119 --> 01:58:28,400 we can go and we can go and look up on 2837 01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:30,639 um on Mass GIS or 2838 01:58:30,639 --> 01:58:32,560 So, you're telling me that with our 2839 01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:34,480 development here in our storm water 2840 01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:35,280 drainage? 2841 01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:37,760 It's on the very sorry, the very 2842 01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:41,760 northwest corner of that little solid 2843 01:58:41,760 --> 01:58:45,040 green area there. The radius 2844 01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:46,880 the northwest corner but 2845 01:58:46,880 --> 01:58:48,400 not the well the radius for the well 2846 01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:50,960 the radius okay so not within what we're 2847 01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:51,760 doing 2848 01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:53,840 so yeah so the way the way the railway 2849 01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:57,520 well I'm hydro geologist so you know how 2850 01:58:57,520 --> 01:58:58,000 it works 2851 01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:01,040 yeah okay these are interim wellhead 2852 01:59:01,040 --> 01:59:03,440 protection areas too so um 2853 01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:05,679 which we're meeting the requirements for 2854 01:59:05,679 --> 01:59:07,360 I'm not quite sure but um 2855 01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:08,480 that's what the peer review 2856 01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:10,960 that's why you want a peer review I mean 2857 01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:14,880 so um what would need to be is you would 2858 01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:16,480 need to do some kind of groundwater 2859 01:59:16,480 --> 01:59:19,599 monitoring analysis to look at how you 2860 01:59:19,599 --> 01:59:22,320 know your uh infiltration basins are 2861 01:59:22,320 --> 01:59:24,159 impacting you know the contributing 2862 01:59:24,159 --> 01:59:26,560 areas of those wells but well you know 2863 01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:28,880 so the proper professional is a PE our 2864 01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:31,199 PE will communicate with the PE for the 2865 01:59:31,199 --> 01:59:33,440 town they are intimately familiar with 2866 01:59:33,440 --> 01:59:35,119 the D stormwater management standards 2867 01:59:35,119 --> 01:59:36,719 all these requirements mounting analysis 2868 01:59:36,719 --> 01:59:39,040 are required in certain situations all 2869 01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:40,719 that would be looked at through the peer 2870 01:59:40,719 --> 01:59:42,159 review process 2871 01:59:42,159 --> 01:59:44,480 and then provided to the 2872 01:59:44,480 --> 01:59:46,800 I would hope that the uh the peer 2873 01:59:46,800 --> 01:59:48,639 reviewer would be knowledgeable in this 2874 01:59:48,639 --> 01:59:50,480 area too that would be able to look at 2875 01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:53,040 this that critical eye 2876 01:59:53,040 --> 01:59:55,840 the stormwater standards I don't recall 2877 01:59:55,840 --> 01:59:57,920 exactly which volume but there is 2878 01:59:57,920 --> 01:59:59,280 something in there about mounting 2879 01:59:59,280 --> 02:00:02,480 analysis and when it depends very 2880 02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:03,599 specific to the standard 2881 02:00:03,599 --> 02:00:06,159 which isn't by any means all the time 2882 02:00:06,159 --> 02:00:07,360 correct 2883 02:00:07,360 --> 02:00:09,360 only usually if you're within separation 2884 02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:10,639 of groundwater 2885 02:00:10,639 --> 02:00:11,920 yeah yeah and if it's if those 2886 02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:13,920 conditions aren't at the site then 2887 02:00:13,920 --> 02:00:16,320 there's no need for an enamel. It's not 2888 02:00:16,320 --> 02:00:16,960 required. 2889 02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:18,639 Well, that's I think that's up to debate 2890 02:00:18,639 --> 02:00:21,440 as well. Um it looks like your 2891 02:00:21,440 --> 02:00:24,400 subsurface um under the parking lot. 2892 02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,360 What's the depth of that infiltration 2893 02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:29,360 uh I don't know what you call it 2894 02:00:29,360 --> 02:00:30,000 facility 2895 02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:32,560 your 2896 02:00:32,560 --> 02:00:34,640 structures. 2897 02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:38,000 [Music] 2898 02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:39,520 I was just looking at the Sonic report. 2899 02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:41,520 It says 3.75 2900 02:00:41,520 --> 02:00:42,000 ft. 2901 02:00:42,000 --> 02:00:46,080 Bottom of stone is 167.5 2902 02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:47,280 uh inches. 2903 02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:51,199 No, that's the elevation above sea level 2904 02:00:51,199 --> 02:00:53,119 based on the 1988. 2905 02:00:53,119 --> 02:00:55,280 Okay. And then how how deep is it to 2906 02:00:55,280 --> 02:00:58,560 ground water below that point based on 2907 02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:00,080 I have to go through the report. 2908 02:01:00,080 --> 02:01:02,560 I don't know if I have it on this sheet. 2909 02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:03,040 Do you want 2910 02:01:03,040 --> 02:01:05,840 estimated seasonal high groundwater 2911 02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:11,280 directly adjacent is 159.5 2912 02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:14,960 I have the report if you want to 2913 02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:16,560 yeah so well 2914 02:01:16,560 --> 02:01:21,280 are those plates online these the 2915 02:01:21,280 --> 02:01:22,000 associated 2916 02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:24,400 I believe so the the they're under the 2917 02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:25,840 rev 2918 02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:26,239 okay 2919 02:01:26,239 --> 02:01:28,000 package I mean there's like I don't know 2920 02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:31,520 how many drawings there are there's like 2921 02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:34,080 18 I BP storm water man management 2922 02:01:34,080 --> 02:01:36,639 handbook is very specific to the design 2923 02:01:36,639 --> 02:01:39,280 of different types of basins. 2924 02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:42,080 Um so yeah so the separate so if you're 2925 02:01:42,080 --> 02:01:43,520 trying to determine groundwater we have 2926 02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:45,040 no ground water in one of our test 2927 02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:48,560 holes. We have another one at 159.5. 2928 02:01:48,560 --> 02:01:53,360 Um so 159.5 the bottom of the stone uh 2929 02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:58,400 for our chambers is 167.5. So, 2930 02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:02,480 well, interesting because in the in the the leadup, I guess the site 2931 02:02:02,480 --> 02:02:04,320 description I'm just looking for, it 2932 02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:06,239 says that groundwater was found between 2933 02:02:06,239 --> 02:02:09,520 72 and groundwater was encountered in 2934 02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:11,360 six of the test pits and was generally 2935 02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:14,800 at a depth of 72 in to 120 in below 2936 02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:16,639 grade. 2937 02:02:16,639 --> 02:02:18,000 Yeah. So, what I'm telling you is the 2938 02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:20,960 actual elevation, not the not the 2939 02:02:20,960 --> 02:02:22,480 surface, which I think you're referring 2940 02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:23,040 to. 2941 02:02:23,040 --> 02:02:24,239 Okay. 2942 02:02:24,239 --> 02:02:25,760 Let the peer review figure it out. I 2943 02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:26,159 mean, 2944 02:02:26,159 --> 02:02:28,880 yeah. I mean, seriously, 2945 02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:30,239 we're happy to take comments. If you 2946 02:02:30,239 --> 02:02:31,599 provide comments to the board, have 2947 02:02:31,599 --> 02:02:32,880 specific comments, we're certainly happy 2948 02:02:32,880 --> 02:02:33,920 to address them. We can 2949 02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:36,239 Well, I I I do have some comments from 2950 02:02:36,239 --> 02:02:39,440 Ellie that she sent to us and she's a 2951 02:02:39,440 --> 02:02:40,639 member of the conservation commission 2952 02:02:40,639 --> 02:02:42,000 that couldn't be here and I got from 2953 02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:43,599 something from the chair. We got two 2954 02:02:43,599 --> 02:02:45,520 people from the conservation commission 2955 02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:48,960 here. So, um, 2956 02:02:48,960 --> 02:02:50,480 you know, I think there's going to be a 2957 02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:52,560 lot of attention on this and I think it 2958 02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:54,480 it's well warranted. Uh, 2959 02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:56,400 I think Sounds like a good process. 2960 02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:58,880 So, 2961 02:02:58,880 --> 02:03:00,800 I think 2962 02:03:00,800 --> 02:03:02,639 if there's no more questions, I think 2963 02:03:02,639 --> 02:03:05,840 it's the Yes. 2964 02:03:05,840 --> 02:03:07,599 Bailey, you live at the social. 2965 02:03:07,599 --> 02:03:09,280 You live? Oh, social. Okay. 2966 02:03:09,280 --> 02:03:12,000 The social um which is across the street 2967 02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:13,599 from where the Dollar General is 2968 02:03:13,599 --> 02:03:15,040 proposed to go. 2969 02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:17,280 Why Sunderland? Because you have 2970 02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:19,840 existing empty storefronts in Hanley 2971 02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:22,159 that would have greater traffic, better 2972 02:03:22,159 --> 02:03:23,040 business. 2973 02:03:23,040 --> 02:03:23,520 What? 2974 02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:25,040 Why Sunderland? I 2975 02:03:25,040 --> 02:03:26,560 why waste the money building? 2976 02:03:26,560 --> 02:03:30,880 I I'm sure that you know I I it hey this 2977 02:03:30,880 --> 02:03:33,520 arrived in our applica it application 2978 02:03:33,520 --> 02:03:35,599 shows up. I mean 2979 02:03:35,599 --> 02:03:36,880 we didn't pick it 2980 02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:39,679 actually address 2981 02:03:39,679 --> 02:03:41,280 and I mean I don't know why that how 2982 02:03:41,280 --> 02:03:43,280 that's germanine to the special permit 2983 02:03:43,280 --> 02:03:46,239 process. I mean that's 2984 02:03:46,239 --> 02:03:48,560 sorry but uh you know 2985 02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:51,280 I'm happy to explain that that's not my 2986 02:03:51,280 --> 02:03:53,760 specific role but the developer works 2987 02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:55,760 directly with Dollar General they 2988 02:03:55,760 --> 02:03:58,320 identify demographics um you know 2989 02:03:58,320 --> 02:04:00,000 population 2990 02:04:00,000 --> 02:04:01,679 within a certain vicinity I'm sure 2991 02:04:01,679 --> 02:04:05,040 traffic counts um and you guys met the 2992 02:04:05,040 --> 02:04:07,840 criteria what do you guys 2993 02:04:07,840 --> 02:04:12,560 lots of students yeah so yeah so there's there's a reason why they want 2994 02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:15,430 to be 2995 02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:17,360 What what you've said, by the way, 2996 02:04:17,360 --> 02:04:20,719 before are words of wisdom that I can 2997 02:04:20,719 --> 02:04:23,679 say I have never heard from a board 2998 02:04:23,679 --> 02:04:24,480 before. 2999 02:04:24,480 --> 02:04:26,960 And that's probably in trouble for it 3000 02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:27,599 now. 3001 02:04:27,599 --> 02:04:30,400 No, no. For example, when I represent 3002 02:04:30,400 --> 02:04:33,199 opponents, which sometimes I do, what I 3003 02:04:33,199 --> 02:04:36,080 say to people is for God's sakes, don't 3004 02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:39,040 just come and spew out anything that 3005 02:04:39,040 --> 02:04:41,760 comes to mind because the board, it's 3006 02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:43,679 exact, what I tell them is exactly what 3007 02:04:43,679 --> 02:04:46,560 you said. The board's criteria are in 3008 02:04:46,560 --> 02:04:48,880 the zoning bylaw. And what you need to 3009 02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:51,440 do, and it's online, is read those 3010 02:04:51,440 --> 02:04:53,520 criteria, and you read them, and then 3011 02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:56,480 you need to focus your comments on those 3012 02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:58,800 criteria. And if, for example, you're 3013 02:04:58,800 --> 02:05:00,800 opposed to it, then for God's sakes, 3014 02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:04,239 make your argument, but please focus on 3015 02:05:04,239 --> 02:05:07,520 the criteria, just like what Rob's doing 3016 02:05:07,520 --> 02:05:09,840 in his report, which is showing how 3017 02:05:09,840 --> 02:05:13,040 we've met those criteria, and it keeps 3018 02:05:13,040 --> 02:05:16,719 it focused, and it avoids wasting a a 3019 02:05:16,719 --> 02:05:21,119 heck of a lot of um time. So, thank you. 3020 02:05:21,119 --> 02:05:26,480 I wish every board would do that. Well, respectfully, Hilda's question is 3021 02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:29,119 under uh number one here. Social, 3022 02:05:29,119 --> 02:05:30,960 economic, or community needs, which are 3023 02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:32,239 being served. What are they? 3024 02:05:32,239 --> 02:05:34,159 Well, I I can answer that too, by the 3025 02:05:34,159 --> 02:05:37,360 way, because to the board, to the chair, 3026 02:05:37,360 --> 02:05:40,560 um you are in between Ammerst, 3027 02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:44,560 Northampton, Greenfield, and and 3028 02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:47,280 basically, and and I can see this for 3029 02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:48,719 sure. I mean, I've got a degree in 3030 02:05:48,719 --> 02:05:52,320 economics. Okay, this type of store 3031 02:05:52,320 --> 02:05:55,679 basically saves trips that would 3032 02:05:55,679 --> 02:05:58,080 normally have to go to any one of those 3033 02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:00,159 towns. And I think it's it's an 3034 02:06:00,159 --> 02:06:03,119 excellent excellent example. And this is 3035 02:06:03,119 --> 02:06:05,599 what Toledo does and other people and 3036 02:06:05,599 --> 02:06:08,320 this is how the a small box retailer 3037 02:06:08,320 --> 02:06:10,639 like this has succeeded. They look for 3038 02:06:10,639 --> 02:06:14,239 these holds basically where the big 3039 02:06:14,239 --> 02:06:17,760 stores are far enough away that it's a 3040 02:06:17,760 --> 02:06:19,840 lot more convenient and that's how it 3041 02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:22,080 serves the well-being of the community. 3042 02:06:22,080 --> 02:06:24,800 If you need something that they've got, 3043 02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:27,920 you don't have to slept a lot farther 3044 02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:30,639 for it and that I think is a well-being 3045 02:06:30,639 --> 02:06:34,000 to the community in addition to they're 3046 02:06:34,000 --> 02:06:36,320 not getting any tax breaks. commercial 3047 02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:39,440 property, unlike houses, benefit the 3048 02:06:39,440 --> 02:06:42,400 town because they add to the town's tax 3049 02:06:42,400 --> 02:06:45,199 base. There's a net gain, unlike houses, 3050 02:06:45,199 --> 02:06:47,440 which if you got two kids in the school, 3051 02:06:47,440 --> 02:06:50,560 the house is a is a 3052 02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:52,639 use that we can't use that when 3053 02:06:52,639 --> 02:06:53,440 deciding. 3054 02:06:53,440 --> 02:06:55,440 I understand you can't use it, but I 3055 02:06:55,440 --> 02:06:57,280 think it's it's something that people 3056 02:06:57,280 --> 02:06:59,599 obviously are concerned about. And so, I 3057 02:06:59,599 --> 02:07:02,079 think it's both a service, an access 3058 02:07:02,079 --> 02:07:04,320 benefit, and a financial benefit to the 3059 02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:05,840 town. Thank you. 3060 02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:13,189 Uh okay. So 3061 02:07:13,199 --> 02:07:15,760 shall we talk about continuation dates? 3062 02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:22,149 Um 3063 02:07:22,159 --> 02:07:27,350 so 3064 02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:29,440 play. 3065 02:07:29,440 --> 02:07:33,840 Do we want to do you 3066 02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:36,320 want to continue to 3067 02:07:36,320 --> 02:07:41,119 four or six weeks or I mean we got some homework to do. The two 3068 02:07:41,119 --> 02:07:44,800 attorneys have some homework to do. Uh 3069 02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:46,800 I don't know Rob you probably don't have 3070 02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:51,189 much to do. Uh 3071 02:07:51,199 --> 02:07:53,599 so I mean we're going to have better 3072 02:07:53,599 --> 02:07:56,239 part of three weeks to get secure quotes 3073 02:07:56,239 --> 02:07:57,119 I would think 3074 02:07:57,119 --> 02:08:00,400 at least. So I I would say uh maybe four 3075 02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:03,119 to six weeks we the time frame to the 3076 02:08:03,119 --> 02:08:04,159 employee 3077 02:08:04,159 --> 02:08:05,840 I mean quotes 3078 02:08:05,840 --> 02:08:08,239 if you so right now we're when do you 3079 02:08:08,239 --> 02:08:09,440 normally meet? 3080 02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:10,719 We meet as needed. 3081 02:08:10,719 --> 02:08:11,599 Okay. 3082 02:08:11,599 --> 02:08:13,119 So in a perfect world we would like to 3083 02:08:13,119 --> 02:08:15,280 meet in September 3084 02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:17,280 and then if you have you know can secure 3085 02:08:17,280 --> 02:08:21,040 quotes meet with you on on those items. 3086 02:08:21,040 --> 02:08:23,599 Um, and I think in that time hopefully 3087 02:08:23,599 --> 02:08:27,040 at the attorneys can pow and help with 3088 02:08:27,040 --> 02:08:31,830 where they're at. 3089 02:08:31,840 --> 02:08:33,760 Do you like meeting on Wednesdays? Is 3090 02:08:33,760 --> 02:08:35,760 that what you've been to? 3091 02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:38,079 You know, I I try to avoid Mondays and 3092 02:08:38,079 --> 02:08:41,199 Fridays. So, 3093 02:08:41,199 --> 02:08:43,920 um, 3094 02:08:43,920 --> 02:08:46,000 the 24th 3095 02:08:46,000 --> 02:08:47,440 is a Wednesday. 3096 02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:53,669 It is. 3097 02:08:53,679 --> 02:08:55,840 Wednesday 3098 02:08:55,840 --> 02:09:02,550 September. 3099 02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:12,790 No, it's August September. 3100 02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:15,119 Okay. Board. Wednesday, September 24th. 3101 02:09:15,119 --> 02:09:17,679 Is that is that a good day for for us? 3102 02:09:17,679 --> 02:09:18,880 Good for me. 3103 02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:22,639 Okay. So we'll continue this hearing at 3104 02:09:22,639 --> 02:09:27,119 uh on Wednesday, September 24. Uh one 3105 02:09:27,119 --> 02:09:30,800 thing I would like to request uh you're 3106 02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:35,920 the travel study engineer, right? Uh I 3107 02:09:35,920 --> 02:09:38,560 would like to revisit that. Uh when we 3108 02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:40,320 were doing 3109 02:09:40,320 --> 02:09:41,920 uh the travel study at the end of the 3110 02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:44,800 last session, we had sort of a hard hard 3111 02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:46,960 stop. we are in the middle of discussing 3112 02:09:46,960 --> 02:09:51,360 things uh and so I and some further 3113 02:09:51,360 --> 02:09:53,520 questions have been raised that we would 3114 02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:56,560 like to to talk to the traffic sit 3115 02:09:56,560 --> 02:10:00,880 person uh and I would ask is it one of 3116 02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:03,679 the questions I have that uh you know it 3117 02:10:03,679 --> 02:10:08,159 was classified as a a variety store use 3118 02:10:08,159 --> 02:10:12,079 uh somehow that doesn't quite seem right 3119 02:10:12,079 --> 02:10:15,440 uh I wonder what other uses are there 3120 02:10:15,440 --> 02:10:18,000 because you know based on a a variety 3121 02:10:18,000 --> 02:10:19,440 store use they said we're going to have 3122 02:10:19,440 --> 02:10:22,400 x amount of cars coming in you know 3123 02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:23,040 whatever 3124 02:10:23,040 --> 02:10:26,079 so I do have the um and I can save it 3125 02:10:26,079 --> 02:10:28,400 for next time but I did pull the central 3126 02:10:28,400 --> 02:10:30,639 variety store isn't you know a standard 3127 02:10:30,639 --> 02:10:33,040 term um the institute of transportation 3128 02:10:33,040 --> 02:10:34,560 engineers have descriptions for the 3129 02:10:34,560 --> 02:10:36,400 different land use codes so I did pull 3130 02:10:36,400 --> 02:10:38,480 that and can certainly share that or 3131 02:10:38,480 --> 02:10:38,960 send 3132 02:10:38,960 --> 02:10:41,280 do they have other categories I mean 3133 02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,679 because you know I look at Dollar 3134 02:10:43,679 --> 02:10:47,199 General And it doesn't strike me as a 3135 02:10:47,199 --> 02:10:49,679 variety store or like no what other what 3136 02:10:49,679 --> 02:10:51,440 else is a variety store? I mean it's 3137 02:10:51,440 --> 02:10:51,920 like 3138 02:10:51,920 --> 02:10:53,199 so I can just 3139 02:10:53,199 --> 02:10:55,440 and but I I don't I don't but I'd ask 3140 02:10:55,440 --> 02:10:59,040 you to take a look at if uh I mean is 3141 02:10:59,040 --> 02:11:01,840 there such it's more of like a mini big 3142 02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:03,520 box. I mean I don't know if that's such 3143 02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:05,440 a category 3144 02:11:05,440 --> 02:11:08,159 variety store specifically references 3145 02:11:08,159 --> 02:11:10,079 the similarity to a dollar store that's 3146 02:11:10,079 --> 02:11:12,800 in the description. Um, and so that's 3147 02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:14,400 where data has been collected at other 3148 02:11:14,400 --> 02:11:16,639 similar uses, other dollar stores. So 3149 02:11:16,639 --> 02:11:18,719 that's why we picked the one 3150 02:11:18,719 --> 02:11:20,560 that that is a question I like to touch 3151 02:11:20,560 --> 02:11:22,560 on. Again, the other thing is that I 3152 02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:24,880 don't know uh I know 3153 02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:27,280 how these corporations work. They took a 3154 02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:29,679 very careful analysis of the side before 3155 02:11:29,679 --> 02:11:32,079 they they the dollar general decided 3156 02:11:32,079 --> 02:11:34,480 before they said I think we want to site 3157 02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:37,119 this and you know bear the expense of 3158 02:11:37,119 --> 02:11:38,480 you know going through and getting a 3159 02:11:38,480 --> 02:11:42,239 special permit. So having the engineers 3160 02:11:42,239 --> 02:11:43,760 uh 3161 02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:46,239 do they have I mean they must look at 3162 02:11:46,239 --> 02:11:47,840 that and they must go through and they 3163 02:11:47,840 --> 02:11:49,840 go through a formula and they say not 3164 02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:52,480 enough traffic not not worthy find 3165 02:11:52,480 --> 02:11:56,639 another place does do they did did they 3166 02:11:56,639 --> 02:12:00,239 have a a study that shows how many cars 3167 02:12:00,239 --> 02:12:03,520 uh what kind of traffic they can expect 3168 02:12:03,520 --> 02:12:05,599 uh I I don't know if that somehow could 3169 02:12:05,599 --> 02:12:08,960 be factored into this 3170 02:12:08,960 --> 02:12:10,800 you know we we talked we talked talked 3171 02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:12,880 about and you've actually done you've 3172 02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:16,159 reduced the amount of parking from the 3173 02:12:16,159 --> 02:12:18,239 first set of drawings. 3174 02:12:18,239 --> 02:12:21,920 uh you know I'm 3175 02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:23,920 I I I don't know does does 3176 02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:25,440 so I not that I'm aware of I don't 3177 02:12:25,440 --> 02:12:26,880 believe Dollar General has their own 3178 02:12:26,880 --> 02:12:28,480 data set but the Institute of 3179 02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:30,560 Transportation Engineers trip manual is 3180 02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:34,079 based on data collected at other dollar 3181 02:12:34,079 --> 02:12:36,639 stores that is all into that that 3182 02:12:36,639 --> 02:12:40,320 variety store um land use code that's um 3183 02:12:40,320 --> 02:12:42,000 kind of what the the manual does. that 3184 02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:44,880 it collects and summarizes data to come 3185 02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:46,079 up with the rates. Yeah. 3186 02:12:46,079 --> 02:12:48,079 Um based on the trips in and out of 3187 02:12:48,079 --> 02:12:49,040 similar sites. 3188 02:12:49,040 --> 02:12:50,800 Are you trying to established that it 3189 02:12:50,800 --> 02:12:52,880 wouldn't be a viable location? 3190 02:12:52,880 --> 02:12:55,760 No. No, not at all. I'm trying to it's 3191 02:12:55,760 --> 02:12:59,760 somehow I'm trying to the the biggest 3192 02:12:59,760 --> 02:13:01,199 question that comes out of my mind out 3193 02:13:01,199 --> 02:13:03,199 of the traffic study. I mean, I see the 3194 02:13:03,199 --> 02:13:04,719 cars going this way and you know, they 3195 02:13:04,719 --> 02:13:06,320 say they show all that stuff. I says, 3196 02:13:06,320 --> 02:13:09,280 "Okay, you know, more or less I I can 3197 02:13:09,280 --> 02:13:12,239 understand that. I'm just trying to do 3198 02:13:12,239 --> 02:13:15,360 we have a good handle on what how many 3199 02:13:15,360 --> 02:13:17,599 cars are are going to you know is 3200 02:13:17,599 --> 02:13:19,040 expected to go in there. 3201 02:13:19,040 --> 02:13:21,199 I think it's fair to say in 3202 02:13:21,199 --> 02:13:23,360 understanding what Bowman has done and 3203 02:13:23,360 --> 02:13:24,880 what they've done on multiple projects 3204 02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:27,280 we worked with them on they're relying 3205 02:13:27,280 --> 02:13:30,159 on very specific detailed data that's 3206 02:13:30,159 --> 02:13:33,920 collected by the premier 3207 02:13:33,920 --> 02:13:36,320 standard industry standard. Let me just 3208 02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:38,320 say I I'd like to take a deeper look at 3209 02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:40,719 that and then that we can talk about 3210 02:13:40,719 --> 02:13:42,320 when we when we get into the traffic 3211 02:13:42,320 --> 02:13:42,960 study again. 3212 02:13:42,960 --> 02:13:44,719 So I guess what I'm saying is that 3213 02:13:44,719 --> 02:13:48,079 information is less than sight specific 3214 02:13:48,079 --> 02:13:50,880 that is that is more data sets based on 3215 02:13:50,880 --> 02:13:52,639 the industry standard. What what other 3216 02:13:52,639 --> 02:13:53,119 solution 3217 02:13:53,119 --> 02:13:54,800 our special permit will be sight 3218 02:13:54,800 --> 02:13:57,599 specific. So I mean I I yeah I know 3219 02:13:57,599 --> 02:14:00,000 but I I don't think I said it right but 3220 02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:05,119 it's this is this is the the data that 3221 02:14:05,119 --> 02:14:07,599 everyone in the entire country uses. Am 3222 02:14:07,599 --> 02:14:10,960 I wrong? Maybe what we could do is, and 3223 02:14:10,960 --> 02:14:13,119 I don't know, has Bowman done other 3224 02:14:13,119 --> 02:14:15,920 Dollar General stores? Then maybe what 3225 02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:18,960 you could do is look at studies that 3226 02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:21,920 Bowman has done specifically for Dollar 3227 02:14:21,920 --> 02:14:25,119 General for this same company stores and 3228 02:14:25,119 --> 02:14:26,639 look, you know, compare the square 3229 02:14:26,639 --> 02:14:28,960 footage of the store and then see if the 3230 02:14:28,960 --> 02:14:31,520 other studies use the same Institute of 3231 02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:33,520 Traffic Engineers category. 3232 02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:35,599 I mean, I we have I mean that that's the 3233 02:14:35,599 --> 02:14:37,520 most applicable lay code. So that's the 3234 02:14:37,520 --> 02:14:39,440 one we usually we look for the one that 3235 02:14:39,440 --> 02:14:42,000 is most consistent with the proposed 3236 02:14:42,000 --> 02:14:44,800 land use. So it saying specifically in 3237 02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:48,079 the description also called dollar store 3238 02:14:48,079 --> 02:14:50,480 that that is what we should go with. 3239 02:14:50,480 --> 02:14:54,960 Okay. I mean is I mean I I don't know. I 3240 02:14:54,960 --> 02:14:56,400 that's that's something that troubles 3241 02:14:56,400 --> 02:14:59,760 me. I I so I'm 3242 02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:01,840 What specifically troubles you so we can 3243 02:15:01,840 --> 02:15:02,159 drive? 3244 02:15:02,159 --> 02:15:06,400 Do we have the expected number of cars? 3245 02:15:06,400 --> 02:15:11,599 I mean the the the traffic or the the car volume that this use is going to 3246 02:15:11,599 --> 02:15:13,280 generate. Do we have it right? 3247 02:15:13,280 --> 02:15:15,360 Is there a similar one on the state 3248 02:15:15,360 --> 02:15:18,719 highway? You know, with similar traffic 3249 02:15:18,719 --> 02:15:20,560 kinds of similar 3250 02:15:20,560 --> 02:15:22,159 I I you know I I don't know. Do they 3251 02:15:22,159 --> 02:15:24,000 base it on square footage? That doesn't 3252 02:15:24,000 --> 02:15:25,679 seem to make sense. I mean 3253 02:15:25,679 --> 02:15:27,520 they flex the the in and out all the 3254 02:15:27,520 --> 02:15:30,239 trips in and out of similar stores and 3255 02:15:30,239 --> 02:15:33,520 they they aggregate that and generate a 3256 02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:35,360 rate based on square footage. So x 3257 02:15:35,360 --> 02:15:37,520 number of trips per square footage based 3258 02:15:37,520 --> 02:15:39,520 on all the data collected and and the 3259 02:15:39,520 --> 02:15:41,760 characteristics of those sites. So kind 3260 02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:43,840 of what you're asking for looking at 3261 02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:46,079 another Dollar General and the trips 3262 02:15:46,079 --> 02:15:49,119 associated with that is what the IT 3263 02:15:49,119 --> 02:15:51,199 generation manual does. 3264 02:15:51,199 --> 02:15:53,599 And it's probably safe to say that the 3265 02:15:53,599 --> 02:15:57,119 last thing Mr. Toledo wants is either to 3266 02:15:57,119 --> 02:15:59,360 have people who can't find a parking 3267 02:15:59,360 --> 02:16:04,320 space or pay a fortune to pave areas 3268 02:16:04,320 --> 02:16:06,880 that aren't going to get used. I mean, 3269 02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:09,920 that I think is part of what any store 3270 02:16:09,920 --> 02:16:10,960 like and that's why 3271 02:16:10,960 --> 02:16:12,960 I'm most concerned about the traffic 3272 02:16:12,960 --> 02:16:18,480 impact. I mean, I'm not wor I I'm not I have a feeling that the parking is 3273 02:16:18,480 --> 02:16:21,040 more than adequate. That's not the point 3274 02:16:21,040 --> 02:16:24,719 of my question. I'm trying to I mean I 3275 02:16:24,719 --> 02:16:28,800 got to tell you traffic flow and safety 3276 02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:32,160 is a big problem with this. No matter 3277 02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:34,719 where you put the driveway, I think I 3278 02:16:34,719 --> 02:16:36,240 told you the only place that I'd feel 3279 02:16:36,240 --> 02:16:37,840 comfortable you put the driveway is at 3280 02:16:37,840 --> 02:16:41,200 that traffic light. 3281 02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:45,840 But I mean I I this is and and if we 3282 02:16:45,840 --> 02:16:48,000 underestimate the amount of cars that 3283 02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:49,599 going to go in there, that's going to 3284 02:16:49,599 --> 02:16:52,000 make that a traffic problem worse. 3285 02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:55,359 So that's what I'm wrestling with. Okay. 3286 02:16:55,359 --> 02:16:58,399 And you know may maybe it is what it is 3287 02:16:58,399 --> 02:17:00,960 and maybe that that's truly accurate but 3288 02:17:00,960 --> 02:17:04,319 you know in you know in my gut doesn't 3289 02:17:04,319 --> 02:17:05,359 I'm not sure. 3290 02:17:05,359 --> 02:17:07,840 That's why we as design professionals 3291 02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:10,080 and traffic engineers don't rely on 3292 02:17:10,080 --> 02:17:12,319 and I'm just asked I'd like to I'd like 3293 02:17:12,319 --> 02:17:14,319 to revisit that. That's correct. 3294 02:17:14,319 --> 02:17:18,559 And then if you could provide some more, 3295 02:17:18,559 --> 02:17:20,800 you know, substantiation or, you know, 3296 02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:23,760 something to to to reinforce it. Okay. 3297 02:17:23,760 --> 02:17:24,160 But 3298 02:17:24,160 --> 02:17:26,639 will be able to make a left onto 116. 3299 02:17:26,639 --> 02:17:30,160 Are you looking to find out how much the 3300 02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:32,559 in the traffic will increase due to the 3301 02:17:32,559 --> 02:17:33,599 store being there? 3302 02:17:33,599 --> 02:17:34,160 Yeah, 3303 02:17:34,160 --> 02:17:35,359 it's on the report. 3304 02:17:35,359 --> 02:17:37,439 I I know it's on the report. I mean, and 3305 02:17:37,439 --> 02:17:40,639 it's based on a it's a it's a variety 3306 02:17:40,639 --> 02:17:43,040 store use and they look it up. 3307 02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:45,040 But I think that the hard part is that 3308 02:17:45,040 --> 02:17:47,599 there's already a lot of traffic there. 3309 02:17:47,599 --> 02:17:51,040 So if they if you add 10 more cars, it 3310 02:17:51,040 --> 02:17:52,719 doesn't really 3311 02:17:52,719 --> 02:17:54,559 increase. If you add 100 more cars, 3312 02:17:54,559 --> 02:17:56,080 that's going to make it a heck of a lot 3313 02:17:56,080 --> 02:17:58,719 worse. And I and I'm I'm exaggerating 3314 02:17:58,719 --> 02:18:00,000 for effect. 3315 02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:02,479 So I'm just 3316 02:18:02,479 --> 02:18:05,599 Well, trying to figure out why your 3317 02:18:05,599 --> 02:18:08,240 anticipation of a lot of extra traffic 3318 02:18:08,240 --> 02:18:10,960 mean isn't my expectation. Well, 3319 02:18:10,960 --> 02:18:13,359 the traffic report does say it, you 3320 02:18:13,359 --> 02:18:15,599 know, this this use is expected to 3321 02:18:15,599 --> 02:18:17,760 generate this much traffic. 3322 02:18:17,760 --> 02:18:19,359 Can we just go back, Mr. Chairman? 3323 02:18:19,359 --> 02:18:22,719 Sorry. There was a lot of lot of 3324 02:18:22,719 --> 02:18:24,080 some a lot that was said in that 3325 02:18:24,080 --> 02:18:28,800 statement. You said no matter what the 3326 02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:30,559 traffic or no matter what the traffic 3327 02:18:30,559 --> 02:18:32,240 report said, you had specific concerns 3328 02:18:32,240 --> 02:18:34,479 with circulation, site access, safety, 3329 02:18:34,479 --> 02:18:36,719 etc. So in the report, I just want to go 3330 02:18:36,719 --> 02:18:38,960 on the record in the report and I'm 3331 02:18:38,960 --> 02:18:40,719 going to ask Emily to reiterate this or 3332 02:18:40,719 --> 02:18:42,800 clarify this, but in the reiterate, 3333 02:18:42,800 --> 02:18:44,559 yeah, she's a traffic person. So I'm 3334 02:18:44,559 --> 02:18:46,319 going to ask Emily the question. Is 3335 02:18:46,319 --> 02:18:49,760 there anything in the report to support 3336 02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:52,800 the statement that this is is a specific 3337 02:18:52,800 --> 02:18:55,519 safety concern with the existing turning 3338 02:18:55,519 --> 02:18:57,840 movements in and out 3339 02:18:57,840 --> 02:18:59,359 is there and the crash data that's 3340 02:18:59,359 --> 02:19:01,280 available for this area? 3341 02:19:01,280 --> 02:19:03,599 No, we've reviewed the crash data. It's 3342 02:19:03,599 --> 02:19:06,399 all below average um at our study area 3343 02:19:06,399 --> 02:19:07,040 intersections. 3344 02:19:07,040 --> 02:19:08,559 I understand all that and you know I 3345 02:19:08,559 --> 02:19:10,479 don't even question that. 3346 02:19:10,479 --> 02:19:11,920 That's what your question was. So you're 3347 02:19:11,920 --> 02:19:12,960 saying you don't question the 3348 02:19:12,960 --> 02:19:15,120 circulation in and out. 3349 02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:18,399 I I mean I I understand 3350 02:19:18,399 --> 02:19:21,200 again 3351 02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:23,920 I have I just do we have the the the 3352 02:19:23,920 --> 02:19:25,519 amount of traffic that's going to be 3353 02:19:25,519 --> 02:19:27,920 generated by this use right and so I 3354 02:19:27,920 --> 02:19:30,000 need some convincing on that. I mean, 3355 02:19:30,000 --> 02:19:33,439 so what what if we were to solicit a 3356 02:19:33,439 --> 02:19:34,960 specific 3357 02:19:34,960 --> 02:19:38,319 can you go to an ID to desri for further 3358 02:19:38,319 --> 02:19:39,200 description of the 3359 02:19:39,200 --> 02:19:40,800 I mean they provide the manual provides 3360 02:19:40,800 --> 02:19:43,120 descriptions. I did bring it to read. I 3361 02:19:43,120 --> 02:19:43,679 mean I can 3362 02:19:43,679 --> 02:19:44,399 Okay. Huh? 3363 02:19:44,399 --> 02:19:46,319 You can send it in advance. Whatever is 3364 02:19:46,319 --> 02:19:49,439 you I mean maybe you have no answer for 3365 02:19:49,439 --> 02:19:52,720 my concern or but I'm just I'm just 3366 02:19:52,720 --> 02:19:54,000 telling you 3367 02:19:54,000 --> 02:19:56,479 something I'm I'm kind of wrestling with 3368 02:19:56,479 --> 02:20:00,240 and you know anything you could do to 3369 02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:03,280 you know to convince me that 3370 02:20:03,280 --> 02:20:04,960 you know we have this nailed right. I 3371 02:20:04,960 --> 02:20:06,399 mean that's all. 3372 02:20:06,399 --> 02:20:09,760 Can I ask a question? if there's going 3373 02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:12,399 to be something at the next meeting that 3374 02:20:12,399 --> 02:20:14,000 you're going to provide us with, if you 3375 02:20:14,000 --> 02:20:16,080 could provide it like ahead of time and 3376 02:20:16,080 --> 02:20:17,520 then it can be distributed. You've 3377 02:20:17,520 --> 02:20:18,800 figured out how to put stuff on the 3378 02:20:18,800 --> 02:20:20,399 website, we can like make sure that it's 3379 02:20:20,399 --> 02:20:22,319 available ahead of time. I think that 3380 02:20:22,319 --> 02:20:23,280 would be helpful. 3381 02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:25,200 The uh so we can review it. 3382 02:20:25,200 --> 02:20:27,520 The traffic report is up there as well. 3383 02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:28,800 Yeah. But she's saying that she has 3384 02:20:28,800 --> 02:20:30,479 definition 3385 02:20:30,479 --> 02:20:32,800 of the land use code. Um just to make it 3386 02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:33,920 clear, you know, that it does 3387 02:20:33,920 --> 02:20:35,840 specifically state the dollar store. Um 3388 02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:38,080 it's it's just the short description, 3389 02:20:38,080 --> 02:20:40,399 but if it's something we want to share, 3390 02:20:40,399 --> 02:20:41,520 I can certainly provide it. 3391 02:20:41,520 --> 02:20:43,040 So, thank you. 3392 02:20:43,040 --> 02:20:46,160 I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm sure I'm just 3393 02:20:46,160 --> 02:20:53,280 bludgeoning you guys and I I had hair when I started doing this. 3394 02:20:53,280 --> 02:20:55,200 No, but you're you're you're asking the 3395 02:20:55,200 --> 02:20:58,960 right question because in fact, 3396 02:20:58,960 --> 02:21:03,200 is the traffic study based on the right? 3397 02:21:03,200 --> 02:21:04,240 Yeah. 3398 02:21:04,240 --> 02:21:07,120 out there. I continue the hearing 15 3399 02:21:07,120 --> 02:21:10,000 minutes ago. So, half the audience left 3400 02:21:10,000 --> 02:21:13,429 for 3401 02:21:13,439 --> 02:21:15,680 I was saying I want to get I'd like you 3402 02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:17,920 to if you could address my concerns at 3403 02:21:17,920 --> 02:21:22,640 the next at the next hearing. Maybe you can't maybe you know 3404 02:21:22,640 --> 02:21:24,880 sounds great. 3405 02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:29,600 Thank you. Thank you. The hearing is continued to Wednesday, 3406 02:21:29,600 --> 02:21:34,680 September 23rd at 7:00.