1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,160 Madame President, we are recording. 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,320 » Thank you and good evening everyone. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:20,000 Welcome to Swapmore BO Council's work 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,760 session for September 8th, 2026. We'll 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,080 start with roll call. Miss Garland 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,680 » Here. 7 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:24,480 » Mr. Theion 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,640 » Here. 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,320 » Miss Thompson here. Miss Zang 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,720 » Here. Miss McCloud 11 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,599 » Here. 12 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,000 » Mr. Bonan 13 00:00:29,599 --> 00:00:30,960 » Here. 14 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,519 » Mayor Booth 15 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,719 » Here, 16 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:33,200 » Manager 17 00:00:32,719 --> 00:00:35,120 » Here, 18 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,600 » Assistant manager Ashcom 19 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,880 » Present, 20 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,239 » And solicitor Scott 21 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,680 » Here. 22 00:00:38,239 --> 00:00:41,760 » We're going to take a few things out of 23 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,280 order this evening to accommodate some 24 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,600 schedules. And we're going to begin with 25 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:49,079 the president section. And I'm going to 26 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,079 make a little statement. 27 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,960 Before we begin tonight, I want to 28 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,640 briefly address a concern that was 29 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,120 recently raised about a potential 30 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,199 conflict of interest involving planning 31 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,120 commission chair James Lavine and his 32 00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:04,080 law firm's representation of Swathmore 33 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,400 College. We take this concern very 34 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,560 seriously and therefore we've asked for 35 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,159 a solicitor to review the matter and 36 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,799 give us his legal opinion and some 37 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:15,119 guidance. We also recognize that 38 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:17,119 regardless of this legal determination, 39 00:01:15,119 --> 00:01:19,200 the circumstances could create questions 40 00:01:17,119 --> 00:01:20,720 about the appearance of a conflict and 41 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,840 we want to make sure the process going 42 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:26,880 forward is clear and above reproach. 43 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:29,680 So, and without prejudicing prejudging, 44 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,360 sorry, we're prejudicing the situation. 45 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,960 James has been instructed not to 46 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,119 deliberate or vote on any land 47 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,439 development plan or other proposal 48 00:01:35,119 --> 00:01:39,439 submitted by Swathmore College so long 49 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:41,840 as he remains affiliated with Troutman 50 00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:44,799 Pepper Lock and the college remains a 51 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,200 client of that firm. The vice chair or 52 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:49,520 another commission member will instead 53 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,119 take the lead on these matters. We 54 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,479 believe these steps are the best way to 55 00:01:51,119 --> 00:01:54,320 protect public confidence in the 56 00:01:52,479 --> 00:01:56,240 planning commission's work and council's 57 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,960 ability to independently consider any 58 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,479 college matter that comes before it. We 59 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,159 will continue to handle this situation 60 00:02:00,479 --> 00:02:03,680 carefully and take the solicitor's 61 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:07,719 guidance into account as we move 62 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,719 forward. Thank you. 63 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,599 Okay, we're going to just finish out 64 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,720 under president since we're already 65 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:17,920 here. Um, can I get a motion to approve 66 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:20,400 the August 3rd, 2026 67 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,760 work session minutes? 68 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,959 » Is there a second? 69 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,920 » Second. 70 00:02:22,959 --> 00:02:24,640 » Does anyone have any 71 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,200 » Second? 72 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:30,319 » Anyone have any comments? 73 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:33,200 I think I do. I think there's a date. 74 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:35,760 Yeah. Under president, it says um Mr. 75 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,280 Boon's motion to approve the July 6, 76 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,720 2025 77 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,200 council minutes were second was 78 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,760 seconded. So, it should be 26. Catch 79 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,120 that. 80 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Shame. 81 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,720 » Any other comments? 82 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,720 All in favor? 83 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,480 » I. Any opposed? Motion passes. Um, can I 84 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,519 get a motion for the approval of the 85 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,800 September 2nd, 2026 special committee 86 00:02:57,519 --> 00:02:59,680 meeting minutes? 87 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,040 » So moved. 88 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,560 » Is there a second? 89 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,480 » Second. 90 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:08,400 » Any any comments about uh those minutes? 91 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,840 » Do we vote if we weren't there? 92 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,080 » Yeah. 93 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:10,560 » Not. 94 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,680 » That's right. 95 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,040 » Not needed for you can, but no need to. 96 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,599 It seems we got plenty of people here 97 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,640 today. 98 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:18,879 » Yeah. 99 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:22,560 » All in favor? 100 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:24,000 » Any opposed? Um uh 101 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,840 » Abstaining. I wasn't there. 102 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:31,040 » Okay. So we have one, two, three. 103 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,560 » One, two, three extensions. Okay. 104 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,840 » Noted. 105 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,599 » Okay. Next, um I would like to bring up 106 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,920 Aaron Hartung, a member of the 107 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:41,920 Centennial Foundation, who will be 108 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,560 presenting a very special gift to the 109 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:48,440 burrow. And I'll let her explain what it 110 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,440 is. Yes, please. 111 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,360 All right. Um, my name is Aron Hartung. 112 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,360 I'm uh, vice president of the Sworthmore 113 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,040 Centennial Foundation. I'm here today to 114 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,480 present a gift to the burrow on behalf 115 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:03,200 of the Centennial Foundation. Um, in uh, 116 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,439 2020, we commissioned um, this piece of 117 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:09,120 art that I will show and many of you may 118 00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:13,519 have seen. This is a a painting by local 119 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:16,479 artist uh Robert Bonet um of the um the 120 00:04:13,519 --> 00:04:19,359 beautiful parkletits um and uh and 121 00:04:16,479 --> 00:04:21,120 greenery along Park Avenue that were um 122 00:04:19,359 --> 00:04:23,360 uh placed there in the wake of the co 19 123 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,199 pandemic and allowed many uh local 124 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,479 restaurants to stay in business. Uh we 125 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:28,560 had commissioned this painting as a 126 00:04:26,479 --> 00:04:30,320 fundraiser for the foundation and now we 127 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,919 are envy and sold prints of it and now 128 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:37,320 we're pleased to present the original as 129 00:04:31,919 --> 00:04:37,320 a gift to the borrow. Thank you so much. 130 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,960 Thank you. I'm sure we'll find we'll 131 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,440 find a picture. 132 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,199 » We'll find a beautiful place 133 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,680 to place 134 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:52,160 it. 135 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,280 » Thank you. 136 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:57,199 » Thank you. 137 00:04:55,280 --> 00:05:00,479 Put it on the chair back. You want the 138 00:04:57,199 --> 00:05:03,479 cardboard? Yeah. 139 00:05:00,479 --> 00:05:03,479 » All right. 140 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,199 Thank you very much and our thanks to 141 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:16,560 the Centennial Foundation. 142 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:17,440 » Okay. Uh public comment. Al, do you want 143 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,000 to take it from here? 144 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,600 » Yep. 145 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,720 » All right. First speaker for this 146 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,880 evening, uh Richard Newton, please come 147 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,400 to the stand. You have three minutes 148 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,800 when you begin speaking. 149 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,720 » Councilman Michael, microphone's off, 150 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,720 please, except for Jill, please. 151 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:46,479 Uh Rich Newton, 316 South Chester Road, 152 00:05:43,039 --> 00:05:49,039 corner of Westdale and Southchester. Uh 153 00:05:46,479 --> 00:05:52,080 as you'll be aware, the college and TCDN 154 00:05:49,039 --> 00:05:55,280 are studying the feasibility of locating 155 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:59,199 a 100 place daycare facility on Harvard 156 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:01,680 Avenue beside Mary Lion Hall. 157 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:04,240 I fully support, as many of the 158 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,759 neighbors do, expanding daycare 159 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,560 provision within the Swathmore 160 00:06:05,759 --> 00:06:12,000 community. My concern, however, is 161 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:14,960 whether this is the right site. 162 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,520 It is a small, heavily treed and 163 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:20,560 constrained site on a quiet neighborhood 164 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:23,919 street hemmed in by the steep slope down 165 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,479 to Yale and Crumb Creek. A facility at 166 00:06:23,919 --> 00:06:29,919 this scale will require removal of many 167 00:06:26,479 --> 00:06:32,240 large mature trees, generate substantial 168 00:06:29,919 --> 00:06:34,720 additional traffic from daily drop off 169 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,240 and pick up likely hundreds of cars 170 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:41,360 movement at the most congested congested 171 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:44,800 time of day. Importantly, the site also 172 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:49,360 appears to lie entirely within the INB 173 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:52,080 200 ft perimeter transition area where 174 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:56,080 the zoning code specifically calls for 175 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:59,840 compatibility with adjoining land uses 176 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:02,319 and streetscapes. Our recently adopted 177 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:04,960 comprehensive plan similarly calls for 178 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:08,319 development to be thoughtful, deliberate 179 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,880 and sensitive to the existing context 180 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:12,880 and for appropriate transitions between 181 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,880 the college and surrounding 182 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,960 neighborhoods. 183 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,240 So for me the question is not simply 184 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,800 whether a 100 place child care facility 185 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,440 can technically be accommodated on the 186 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,840 site but whether this is the site that 187 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,400 it should be located. I would therefore 188 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:33,759 encourage the burough to ask the college 189 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:36,880 to share the criteria and comparative 190 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:40,560 site assessment that led to this 191 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,080 location being considered and most 192 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,160 importantly 193 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,520 to reconsider whether another site 194 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:50,080 within its extensive land holdings could 195 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,560 accommodate this important facility with 196 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:55,039 substantially less impact on the 197 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,879 immediately surrounding 198 00:07:55,039 --> 00:08:00,720 neighborhood neighborhood neighborhood. 199 00:07:56,879 --> 00:08:03,960 the residential community. Thank you. 200 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,960 » Thank you. 201 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,120 » Next up, we have Haven Wel. 202 00:08:11,039 --> 00:08:16,599 You have three minutes to speak uh when 203 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,599 you begin speaking. 204 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,720 » All right. Hi, Bro Council. Uh, my name 205 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,160 is Haven Winsel, 500 College Avenue. I 206 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,320 suppose the residence for right now. I'm 207 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,919 a junior at Sworthmore College and this 208 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,320 summer I had the pleasure to work for 209 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:39,039 the burrow on the records retention 210 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,800 policy or excuse me, record retention 211 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:42,640 project. Sorry, a little nervous. It's 212 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,200 the first time I've spoken for council 213 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,800 before. Um, I wanted to share a little 214 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,240 bit about my experience and what it 215 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,320 meant to me as well as the impact 216 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,320 hopefully that it has for the bureau. 217 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,760 Um, so I should mention my in 218 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,000 professional interest is in cities and 219 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,560 the development. And so I approached uh 220 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,320 manager Dave in the spring about 221 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:01,920 potentially helping out the the burrow. 222 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,760 And he called me back sometime later 223 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,399 asking what did I think about uh 224 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:09,200 municipal record detention. I said let's 225 00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:14,080 do it. Uh 226 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:15,440 um and so we we started uh and I thought 227 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,959 and I found the project to be really 228 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,560 revealing about the development of 229 00:09:16,959 --> 00:09:21,279 Sworthmore and I found it absolutely 230 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:23,120 fascinating. Um, I'm originally from 231 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:24,399 Oregon and so I didn't know as much as I 232 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,519 probably should have about the area. And 233 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:27,920 it was wonderful as we went through 234 00:09:25,519 --> 00:09:29,519 these files from the 1920s onward to 235 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,760 learn about how Sworthmore grew and 236 00:09:29,519 --> 00:09:33,760 developed from this small cute quaint 237 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:37,920 town to this small cute quaint town that 238 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:39,040 still is today. Um, yeah. And so from my 239 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,800 you know personal understanding learned 240 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,800 a lot about the bid process how local 241 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,560 government was organized and uh the 242 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,000 degree like absolute collaboration 243 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:48,000 between local brooks which is absolutely 244 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,160 fascinating and working with some of the 245 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,240 local you know wonderful historical uh 246 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:55,839 society volunteers some of which may be 247 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,680 present here today um that helped 248 00:09:55,839 --> 00:09:59,839 provide like a lot of context for the 249 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:02,720 actual documents that we went through 250 00:09:59,839 --> 00:10:04,080 and a lot of things that I personally 251 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,240 didn't realize to be so important such 252 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,480 as street resurfacing and street 253 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,920 repaving and street widening, which 254 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,600 apparently comes across the local 255 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,160 municipalities desk more often than I 256 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,760 realized before. Um, and so I find it 257 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,200 absolutely fascinating how that all 258 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:21,200 those records paint an absolute picture 259 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,800 of how the uh burrow operated. Um, and I 260 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,560 thought many of the town discussions 261 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,120 that those records captured in the 262 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:29,200 1950s, the 1970s, the 1990s, and onward 263 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,560 about parking meters and traffic and 264 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,880 development are still discussions that, 265 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:34,160 you know, come up today even now. And my 266 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,360 hope is that these records, you know, 267 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,440 they're a little bit more organized, can 268 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,880 be used for future discussions, and 269 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,360 hopefully eliminate some of these some 270 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,440 of these points going forward. Um, and 271 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,560 hopefully this will help Lisa her filing 272 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,160 going forward uh as well that I wanted 273 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:51,279 to say thank you for this opportunity to 274 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,959 learn. Um, and I'm very appreciative to 275 00:10:51,279 --> 00:10:55,760 uh all the folks that we worked with, 276 00:10:52,959 --> 00:10:57,920 the local historical society, 277 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,640 uh, and Elise for this opportunity and 278 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,760 to help everyone out. 279 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,760 » Thank you so much. 280 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:12,079 A did a great job. 281 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:17,160 » Yeah, thank you. 282 00:11:12,079 --> 00:11:17,160 » Next up, we have a Scott Draper. 283 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,640 » Scott, you have three minutes when you 284 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,640 begin speaking. 285 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:36,000 Good evening. I'm Scott Draper. I have 286 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,000 two parts to cover tonight. The first is 287 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,160 my public comment that will be followed 288 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,240 by sharing public comments from 10 289 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,800 residents. 290 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:47,200 I stand today as both the business owner 291 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,240 of Easy Composting and a proud resident 292 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,920 of this burrow for 30 years. The 293 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,000 opportunity to serve this community for 294 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,959 the past year has been the highlight of 295 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,040 my career. the capstone of my mission to 296 00:11:56,959 --> 00:12:02,160 create business platforms that enable 297 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:05,519 communities to be better together. I've 298 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:08,240 been proud to see program participation 299 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:10,320 to witness a significant leap towards 300 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,959 our zerowaste goals and to work 301 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,399 handinand with neighbors some of whom 302 00:12:12,959 --> 00:12:18,480 have and or will speak today toward a 303 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:21,680 shared mission to make our community 304 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,000 stronger and greener. I am passionate 305 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:26,639 about what I do and I hope that easy 306 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,399 composting has played a small role in 307 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:35,279 making caring for our earth a little 308 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:37,839 easier for residents of Swathmore. 309 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:40,160 And while I'm proud of what we've done, 310 00:12:37,839 --> 00:12:42,320 I can also say that we can do better 311 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,200 here tonight and in sitting and 312 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,360 listening in previous Burough meetings. 313 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,279 I've heard the voices of residents and 314 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,240 council members providing important 315 00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:54,800 feedback, insights into areas where easy 316 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,880 composting can improve to better serve 317 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,120 our community. 318 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,279 Over the past weeks and months, I've 319 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,360 taken these insights, consulted with 320 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:06,000 trusted experts in the field and arrived 321 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:09,760 at a plan of action to move easy 322 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,120 composting forward and Swathmore forward 323 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:15,600 in our goal of zero waste. 324 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,480 Community feedback is very important to 325 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:21,279 us. It was recently highlighted that 326 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,760 in-person communication was an area in 327 00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:27,360 need of improvement. I'm excited to 328 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:30,920 announce our new locally based route 329 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,920 manager, Dawn, 330 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,600 will be available to meet with Burough 331 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:39,120 staff and residents within 48 hours 332 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:42,000 notice. Additionally, we're seeing bins 333 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,920 left out after routes have started. This 334 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,399 is understandable with composting being 335 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,399 a new program. To make it easier for 336 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:50,399 residents to remember, we're providing 337 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:54,079 residents with notification reminders 338 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:57,720 for collections. To sign up, just email 339 00:13:54,079 --> 00:13:57,720 hello@ easycomposting.com. 340 00:13:57,839 --> 00:14:02,240 To tonight's attendees and council 341 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,440 members, thank you for giving Easy 342 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:08,959 Composting the opportunity to serve you 343 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,800 this year. And on a personal note, as a 344 00:14:08,959 --> 00:14:13,440 30-year resident, thank you for the 345 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:16,160 privilege of allowing me to play a small 346 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,480 role in the history of this town, I am 347 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,079 eager to hear your thoughts and am 348 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,279 committed to working with council 349 00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:25,839 members, burough staff, and any and all 350 00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:28,160 members of this community to ensure that 351 00:14:25,839 --> 00:14:32,920 we provide a service Swathmore residents 352 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,920 can count on for years to come. 353 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,240 May I provide the comments from the 354 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:41,279 residents? 355 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:44,800 » Yeah, sure. 356 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:48,399 » This is Margaret B on Fairview. While 357 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,800 serving on the Swathmore EAC, I learned 358 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:53,760 about easy composting from a fellow 359 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:56,240 member who recommended their service as 360 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:59,120 an easy, affordable, and environmental 361 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,600 solution to ensuring compostable waste 362 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,560 didn't end up in landfills. Their 363 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,120 service was always friendly, effective. 364 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,279 The few times I had questions or issues, 365 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,399 I received quick and friendly email 366 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:14,079 responses that helped fix the situation. 367 00:15:12,399 --> 00:15:16,560 I was thrilled when the burrow 368 00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:18,800 officially created a composting service 369 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,560 with Easy Composting. 370 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,120 Their service continued to be friendly 371 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:26,160 and effective. I hope the burrow will 372 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,320 take seriously my endorsement of easy 373 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:33,240 composting as well as the environmental 374 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,240 need for composting in general. 375 00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:39,440 Jack G on strap statement. We've used 376 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,240 easy composting since before Swathmore's 377 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,560 burrow wide program began and our 378 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,279 experience has been consistently 379 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,440 positive. The curbside service is 380 00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:51,519 reliable and convenient, and we've 381 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440 appreciated the responsive customer 382 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:56,000 service and connection to a local 383 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,759 provider. Please feel free to share this 384 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,160 with Burough Council as firsthand 385 00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:03,160 feedback about our experience with the 386 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,160 program. 387 00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:12,399 Maria M on Ruckers. You've made it easy, 388 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,320 affordable, and pleasurable for a 389 00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:16,880 beginning composter like me to start 390 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,600 making a difference in Swathmore. Always 391 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:24,079 great communication with questions, etc. 392 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:27,120 Always friendly pickups. Thank you, 393 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:28,560 Julia M on Chestnut. 394 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,040 We've been very happy with Easy 395 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,519 Composting for several years now, even 396 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,120 before it became the Burrows program. 397 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,120 It's been easy and convenient with 398 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:41,560 responsive service. We strongly support 399 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,560 M curbside composting in Swathmore. 400 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,199 Cesaly V on Elm, I read the Swathmore, 401 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,680 but I don't get into the weeds when it 402 00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:53,440 comes to some local controversies. 403 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,440 I gathered from your letter to the 404 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,839 editor a couple weeks ago that the issue 405 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,399 arose over where easy takes the food 406 00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:02,800 waste to be composted. Sometimes these 407 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:06,640 folks think everything can be done hyper 408 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:08,559 locally. It's okay that the farmers at 409 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,600 the Saturday market drive here from 410 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:14,559 Lancaster County. I understood from your 411 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:16,240 letter that Delo that the Delo facility 412 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:19,120 would not make the necessary commitments 413 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,919 in writing. So you go to and that 414 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:24,240 you have clients in other locations etc. 415 00:17:21,919 --> 00:17:26,959 I support the Berto's contract with you 416 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,840 and have enjoyed excellent service with 417 00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:32,720 Easy since 2023. 418 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:36,000 As another sub subscriber said, I also 419 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:38,080 much appreciated Easy coming by the day 420 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,480 after I failed to put my bucket out 421 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:44,400 early. You have responded promptly to 422 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:47,280 every email I've sent. My regular trash 423 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,120 rarely has any food in it, so it doesn't 424 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,720 smell or attract pests. 425 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,880 » Scott, I'm just going to ask that you 426 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,160 maybe summarize a little bit more and 427 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,919 wrap it up. 428 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,360 » Just trying to quote like 429 00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:58,559 » I understand. 430 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,320 » I literally have 431 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:00,720 » Yeah, why don't you send it to us if you 432 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,320 will? 433 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,919 » Okay. Can I just There's like one I want 434 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,480 to end with if that's possible. 435 00:18:03,919 --> 00:18:08,280 » Yeah. 436 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,280 » Okay. Um, 437 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,799 I'm fine with including me as a 438 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:15,679 supporter of easy compost arrangement. I 439 00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:17,200 think your explanation will prevail. 440 00:18:15,679 --> 00:18:17,600 » All right, I'll skip a few and I'll get 441 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,480 to the 442 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,120 » Yeah, let's wrap it up. 443 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,200 » Okay, thank you. Um, Susanna H on 444 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,720 Swathmore. Happy to lend my support 445 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,640 here. We strongly believe that 446 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,480 composting is an essential part of 447 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,799 caring for the place we are privileged 448 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:33,200 to call home. Not only does composting 449 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:35,840 significantly decrease the amount of 450 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,080 trash sent to landfills, it regenerates 451 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,480 food scraps into compost, which 452 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,280 nourishes the earth without chemicals 453 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:46,080 that could harm humans, as well as all 454 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,559 the living organisms we share this space 455 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,559 with, from foxes to bees to earthworms. 456 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:52,799 We've composted with Easy Composting for 457 00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:55,120 years, even before the burrow contracted 458 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:57,120 with them. And we've always been pleased 459 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,720 with the level of service. It's 460 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,559 important for this service to continue 461 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,000 with a local company committed to the 462 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:05,640 burrow and its residents. 463 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,640 » Thank you very much. 464 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,400 » Uh Jane Billings, 465 00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:15,640 you have three minutes. When you take 466 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,640 the stand 467 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,880 » Who is 468 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:29,200 » Really the parklets and and uh co was 469 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,840 enough to send me spiraling back to uh 470 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,320 uh memories. But we did a great job. We 471 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,160 we stopped it. Um I'm passing out some 472 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,440 stuff about the peace bowl. I'm actually 473 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,520 here on what I hope is a 474 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:43,520 non-controversial matter. Um and um uh 475 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,200 Sean Ering is actually with me as well 476 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,919 with the representatives of sport 477 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,760 Rotary. Uh I'm the past president for 478 00:19:47,919 --> 00:19:51,520 two years of Rotary. Pretty much went 479 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,000 into that after I retired. Great 480 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,160 organization. Um and one of our 481 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,280 unofficial committee of Sean, myself, 482 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:01,840 our current president Lonnie um and 483 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,480 another member of our club uh to install 484 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,160 a peace pole in a public place in the 485 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,200 burrow. There actually are some peace 486 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:12,400 poles already in the burrow. Um, but our 487 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,720 local voter district um is hoping to put 488 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,600 peace polls in a public place where they 489 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:20,240 can be seen pretty much on an everyday 490 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,320 basis. And after some searching and 491 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,320 discussing with other people, we have 492 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,360 picked a location that you can probably 493 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:30,799 see. It's by the um oak tree sort of on 494 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:32,480 the far side of Central Park. Uh we 495 00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,080 checked in with the Centennial 496 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,000 Foundation because, as you know, they've 497 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,159 done so much work in the park. We 498 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000 checked in with uh the horicultural 499 00:20:38,159 --> 00:20:42,159 society because they've done most of the 500 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,799 plantings and we checked in with Doug 501 00:20:42,159 --> 00:20:47,760 who just did the most amazing renovation 502 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:49,120 of the of the um veterans memorial just 503 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,960 to make sure that nobody thought it was 504 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:54,880 a funky location or they didn't want to 505 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:58,320 do it. Um so the peace polls uh all are 506 00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,960 engraved with languages that are that 507 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,280 all say may peace prevail on earth. Uh 508 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:06,880 we are planning eight languages and they 509 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:10,240 will include English, Lape, Swahili, 510 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,760 German, Spanish, Chinese, and Japanese. 511 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,720 I think that was eight. If it wasn't, 512 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,760 I'll miss one. Um the German actually 513 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,600 you're probably going to hear a little 514 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,760 bit more about this town used to have a 515 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,559 relationship with a town in Germany that 516 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,919 started after the war and um we're 517 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:27,280 hoping to get a little more information 518 00:21:23,919 --> 00:21:28,799 about that. And we also uh the Japanese 519 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,720 connection is very important. These 520 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:34,799 peace holes were started after World War 521 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,960 II by a survivor from Japan um and uh 522 00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:39,919 pretty much in response to Hiroshima and 523 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,320 Nagasaki and there are now 250,000 of 524 00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:44,960 them worldwide. So we're hoping to kind 525 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,200 of fasttrack this a little bit. Um we 526 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,799 would like to get this in the ground. Um 527 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,000 we're not going to make International 528 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,440 Day of Peace September 21st. Uh but we 529 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,159 would like to get it in the ground by 530 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,679 November at the very latest and they do 531 00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:01,600 take a while to make. So, if council has 532 00:21:59,679 --> 00:22:03,200 no questions or approves of it, it would 533 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,280 be great if we could get approval 534 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,039 tonight. 535 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,400 I don't know if everybody has any 536 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:09,840 questions. 537 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,320 » I think we can do that. 538 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,039 » Okay. 539 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,600 » Yeah. 540 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:13,440 » Thanks. 541 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,240 » Thank you, Jane. That's really nice. It 542 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,120 is. It's really nice. 543 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,360 » I was going to have a second 544 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:21,120 inscription. More peace all the time, 545 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,120 but um we're going to go with me. Peace 546 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,960 prevail on earth. It's it's uh pretty 547 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,320 remarkable to think about them all over 548 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,960 the world. 549 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,360 Thank you. 550 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,240 » And as I understand it, this would be at 551 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,400 no cost to 552 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,400 » No cost. Right. Correct. 553 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,480 » And it's maintenancefree and it's not 554 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,400 going in the grass because Brian Tipping 555 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,919 assured me that they would destroy it 556 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,679 with their weed whackers. Not 557 00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:44,240 intentionally, but if it was in the 558 00:22:41,679 --> 00:22:48,000 grass. So, this will go with some um 559 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:50,960 pavers around it and um in the the sort 560 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,520 of more the planted area. 561 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:59,120 » Thank you. 562 00:22:53,520 --> 00:23:00,720 Next up, we have Rhyma Aaron. 563 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:03,720 You have three minutes when you begin 564 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,720 speaking. 565 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,799 It's Evan. I guess I have to work on my 566 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:15,600 handwriting. 567 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:17,679 I'm here to talk about artificial turf, 568 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,760 but I want to take a brief historical 569 00:23:17,679 --> 00:23:22,799 detour first. 570 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,880 Lead paint has many advantages which can 571 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:28,960 be broken down into two basic 572 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,520 categories, convenience and performance. 573 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,520 Lead makes paint dry more quickly. It 574 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,240 makes paint more resistant to moisture 575 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,159 that causes corrosion and rusting. It 576 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,440 increases paint's durability and 577 00:23:38,159 --> 00:23:43,520 maintains fresh, vibrant colors. Not 578 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,840 surprisingly, the lead industry heavily 579 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:49,919 marketed the addition of lead to paint 580 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:52,080 and promoted it as a wonder ingredient. 581 00:23:49,919 --> 00:23:53,840 However, the dangers of lead paint were 582 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,559 well known by the end of the 19th 583 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,640 century. German health laws banned women 584 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:02,960 and children from working in factories 585 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:05,520 processing lead paint as early as 1886. 586 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,600 Uh Sherwin Williams, the paint company, 587 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,120 reported on the dangers of lead paint in 588 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,000 1904. 589 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:14,080 True to form, the US, so often 590 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,960 interested in putting money ahead of 591 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,360 public safety, didn't ban lead paint in 592 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:23,360 residential buildings, public buildings, 593 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:26,240 toys, and furniture until 1977. 594 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:28,400 Why this change in judgment? Because the 595 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,960 scientific establishment determined that 596 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,360 lead paint causes damage to the nervous 597 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,400 system, kidney failure, stunted growth 598 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:38,159 in children, reproductive problems. to 599 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,760 list only a few of the serious 600 00:24:38,159 --> 00:24:44,640 consequences of lead paint exposure. 601 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,360 Today, in 2026, the artificial turf 602 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:50,400 industry heavily markets their product. 603 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:52,799 Why? Two basic categories: convenience 604 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,279 and performance. You put down the turf 605 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:58,000 and it doesn't get muddy. It stays fresh 606 00:24:55,279 --> 00:25:00,480 looking, its colors vibrant. It is 607 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,559 marketed as state-of-the-art, the wonder 608 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,760 turf that all competitive athletic 609 00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:08,640 programs should have. The scientific 610 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,880 community has another view. An article 611 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,919 on the website of the National Library 612 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,679 of Medicine reads as follows. Numerous 613 00:25:13,919 --> 00:25:17,919 studies have shown that chemicals 614 00:25:15,679 --> 00:25:20,640 identified in artificial turf are known 615 00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:23,919 carcinogens, neurotoxicants, 616 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,760 mutagens, and endocrine disruptors. It 617 00:25:23,919 --> 00:25:28,720 is also widely known that artificial 618 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,640 turf increases risk to children. They 619 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,720 are lower to the ground where toxic 620 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,960 chemicals settle. They are more likely 621 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,520 to put their hands in their mouths. They 622 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,600 have immature detoxification systems, so 623 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,320 their bodies cannot cope with powerful 624 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,720 chemical agents. They produce more heat 625 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,760 per mass than adults, and they sweat 626 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,960 less. This intensifies their risk to the 627 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:54,400 extreme heat generated by turf. Here in 628 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,799 Swarmore, we face a test. Do we turn our 629 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,960 backs on science, equivocate about 630 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:01,279 risks, and choose the equivalent of 631 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,320 exposing lead paint to our children and 632 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:06,880 our environment? The people of Swarmore 633 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,200 are watching the Sparrow Council. Thank 634 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,440 you. 635 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,440 » Thank you. 636 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,919 Uh, next we have a Barbara 637 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,600 uh, Draven. 638 00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:29,000 » Dreb. Yep. That's one of 639 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:29,000 » Three minutes when you uh come and vote. 640 00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:37,840 » Barbara Jing, 323 North Swathmore. 641 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:41,039 Uh, I've passed out 642 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,919 copies of routine exclusions that exempt 643 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:46,960 insurers from paying any liability 644 00:26:43,919 --> 00:26:49,919 claims related to PAS, Forever 645 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,559 Chemicals, and other chemicals used in 646 00:26:49,919 --> 00:26:55,279 artificial turf and other products. 647 00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:57,600 These exclusions raise a major question 648 00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:59,600 whether the bureau or the school 649 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,640 district would have any liability 650 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,520 coverage for any potential future claims 651 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,760 related to these chemicals from 652 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,919 Cunningham Field adjacent to an 653 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,640 elementary school and residential 654 00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:16,080 neighborhood or any artificial turf 655 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,240 fields on school district property. When 656 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,200 you read the exclusions, you see that 657 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:24,080 they do not require that PAS forever 658 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,120 chemicals or other specific chemicals be 659 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:30,720 proven to be present on the site, but 660 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:33,520 they are broadly written to include any 661 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,720 substance that may exhibit or 662 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:41,080 demonstrate the same or similar harmful 663 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,080 properties as PAS. 664 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:45,919 as the Swathmore Burough may soon 665 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,320 consider changing the zoning on 666 00:27:45,919 --> 00:27:50,640 Cunningham Field after first turning 667 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,159 them down to permit the college to 668 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:56,799 install multiple tops types of turf on 669 00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:58,240 the fields and on the walkways. The 670 00:27:56,799 --> 00:28:00,960 bureau would be permitting the 671 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,760 proliferation of PAS forever chemicals 672 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,200 and other chemicals in close proximity 673 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:10,080 to residents, the school, school staff, 674 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,320 athletes, spectators, people working in 675 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,240 the vill and frequenting the town 676 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,760 center. 677 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,440 The Delaware County Planning Commission 678 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,760 has told Swathmore residents that they 679 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,720 have never seen a proposal with this 680 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,880 many different kinds of artificial turf 681 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,200 products to be installed in close 682 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,600 proximity to an elementary school and 683 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,679 homes. They encourage residents to get 684 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,679 all the details the impact of the 685 00:28:31,679 --> 00:28:35,919 interaction of these chemicals and child 686 00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:38,399 and resident health. And since they 687 00:28:35,919 --> 00:28:41,200 always categorize artificial turf as 688 00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:44,080 hardcape to get details on how the 689 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,760 massive runoff could be handled to avoid 690 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:50,159 flooding. In the event of a suit when 691 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,320 there is no liability coverage, how will 692 00:28:50,159 --> 00:28:54,559 the burough solicitor and the council 693 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,279 explain why the bureau would ever 694 00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:59,760 reszone Cunningham Field to allow 695 00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:02,000 proliferation of a huge volume of 696 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:07,000 chemical particles next to our 697 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,000 elementary school and residential homes. 698 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:10,799 All 699 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,760 right. Next up is Neil Young. 700 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,760 You have 3 minutes when you begin 701 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,760 speaking. 702 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,399 talk tonight about composting. Uh but as 703 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,159 I will maintain, I don't think the issue 704 00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:38,640 is comp composting. The issue is 705 00:29:36,159 --> 00:29:41,360 governance. Um you know, we approved 706 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:44,480 $150,000 of expenditure without any 707 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,159 clear goals, measurable criteria, um or 708 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,159 any sort of notion of what the program 709 00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:50,399 was supposed to achieve. Those are basic 710 00:29:48,159 --> 00:29:52,799 functions of government. Um, you know, 711 00:29:50,399 --> 00:29:55,039 I'm a fierce but measured critic of this 712 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:56,720 council and it's okay to make mistakes 713 00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,480 and it's okay to respond to new 714 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,000 information, but entering into a 715 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,159 contract without first deciding how 716 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,320 you'll measure success is is 717 00:30:02,159 --> 00:30:05,840 embarrassing. 718 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,279 We should before entering it, spending 719 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,559 the money, you should count should come 720 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:10,559 to the public and said, "This is what 721 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:12,399 we're trying to accomplish. Here's how 722 00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:14,000 we'll measure it. Here's what success 723 00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:16,960 looks like and here's what it would 724 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,799 cause us to reconsider." 725 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,799 You say those questions you want to ask. 726 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:22,960 And so without meaningful metrics uh 727 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:25,679 measured in advance almost any result 728 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,919 can be defined as success. Satisfied 729 00:30:25,679 --> 00:30:30,799 customers a pound of food waste diverged 730 00:30:27,919 --> 00:30:34,640 from landfill. Um you know an arbitrary 731 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:37,919 30% figure site is a success. Um it's 732 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,840 all post fact and I think taxpayers need 733 00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:42,480 a much simpler question answered. If we 734 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:45,120 had $150,000 of dollars to spend which I 735 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,720 don't think we do but if we did what 736 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,279 would be the best use of that taxpayer 737 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,720 funding? And I'd argue um the best 738 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:52,240 result here would be to return that 739 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,960 money to the taxpayer and let people 740 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,200 choose for themselves how to um sustain 741 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,360 the environment. So nobody asked these 742 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,760 questions before the unanimous vote last 743 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,520 year. So when SR comes up and the 744 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,600 seniors come up asking for a couple of 745 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,919 thousand or a couple hundred bucks, 746 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:11,600 every penny is scrutinized. So why 747 00:31:07,919 --> 00:31:13,039 wasn't the same standard applied here? 748 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,039 And I think this is what the bigger 749 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:16,399 issue is. There's a growing perception 750 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,240 uh in the community that highly 751 00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:21,039 organized committed groups and and very 752 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,120 wealthy landlords like the the college 753 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:24,880 have disproportionate influence uh over 754 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,120 the over the public discourse because 755 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,279 they have this council here and so they 756 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,120 get a seat at the table. Um so when 757 00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:34,640 you're at the table, everyone else is on 758 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,559 the menu. Um and so once these you know 759 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,320 ideas and schemes and notions gain 760 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:40,320 momentum, it stops being about what's 761 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,320 right for the public and it becomes 762 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,080 about the politics. So we've seen that 763 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,880 with composting and now we're seeing it 764 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:49,039 with with development. So enthusiasm for 765 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,000 the vague notion of of town center north 766 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:54,159 seems to be dominoes are falling into 767 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,480 well that means we have to tough over 768 00:31:54,159 --> 00:31:58,159 cunning field and it feels like the 769 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,360 political momentum is now replacing 770 00:31:58,159 --> 00:32:02,799 sound judgment. So I urge you uh once 771 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,000 again to recommit to a much higher 772 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:08,080 standard of governance um much more 773 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,000 consideration of public input, much more 774 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,559 objective evaluation, much more 775 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,880 transparency and much more willingness 776 00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:16,159 uh to question your own assumptions. And 777 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,080 I think most importantly, we need to 778 00:32:16,159 --> 00:32:19,760 stop confusing uh the interests of small 779 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,640 minorities and local minorities with the 780 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,000 needs of a broader community. Um so 781 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,000 again, I encourage you to listen more 782 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,440 broadly, govern more objectively and 783 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,159 serve more of the community. Thank you 784 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,960 for your time. 785 00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:31,960 » Thank you. Anyone 786 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,840 else who wishes to speak for public 787 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,760 comment? 788 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,679 » Okay, no further public comment. 789 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,760 » Thanks, Al. 790 00:32:41,679 --> 00:32:45,600 Okay, we're going to do um the planning 791 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,200 and zoning committee next because we 792 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:51,039 have a member of the planning commission 793 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,880 here, John. That's you. Um so, do we 794 00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:55,039 want to take a a minute so we can set up 795 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,200 this uh projector? Okay, we're going to 796 00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:57,840 be in recess for 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 797 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,600 however long it takes. 798 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:04,240 » Five minutes. 5. Thank you. 799 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:07,600 » Okay. Um the planning commission and uh 800 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:10,960 planning zone each met this uh past 801 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:13,039 month will be in a little bit later. The 802 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:16,320 largest area of discussion at our two 803 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:20,240 meetings was the PC's revised rever 804 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:24,480 version of what we sent to the planning 805 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:26,399 commission uh regarding uh outdoor 806 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,399 commerce. The biggest difference is 807 00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:30,399 whether the burrow should require 808 00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:33,120 parklets to have curb pipe flat 809 00:33:30,399 --> 00:33:35,840 platforms or allow the parklets to be at 810 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,919 street level. There is general agreement 811 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,000 about the need for improved aesthetics 812 00:33:37,919 --> 00:33:42,159 compliance with ADA and the need for 813 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,320 crash barriers. Members of the planning 814 00:33:42,159 --> 00:33:46,320 and zoning have concerns about the cost 815 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,399 of platforms, who pays for them, and 816 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,600 whether the cost might kill a park 817 00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:55,679 program. uh planning commission provided 818 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:58,880 no cost analysis previously and we were 819 00:33:55,679 --> 00:34:01,679 working with $30,000 of for modular 820 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,919 units. We recently received just this 821 00:34:01,679 --> 00:34:07,200 afternoon and that's what John will be 822 00:34:03,919 --> 00:34:11,200 discussing uh some more refined cost 823 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:13,919 estimates as we move uh further into 824 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,919 this evening's agenda. uh planning on 825 00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:18,000 zoning also discussed restrictions on 826 00:34:15,919 --> 00:34:19,440 artificial turf and has sent related 827 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,599 questions to our solicitor and the 828 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,320 zoning officer before taking the next 829 00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:26,240 step of engaging the uh planning 830 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,440 commission in discussion. More on this 831 00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:31,919 later and the college has not submitted 832 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:35,520 a proposal regarding Cunningham Wheel 833 00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:37,839 nor has it provided uh us nor Satna with 834 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,159 a dividing line between the Cunningham 835 00:34:37,839 --> 00:34:42,480 Field project and the town center north 836 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,800 boundary. The lack of a plannable bouch 837 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,839 will probably cost us our place in line 838 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:50,240 regarding transtorian it developed in 839 00:34:47,839 --> 00:34:53,040 Swathmore by SEPTA to defer the 840 00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:55,040 development of Town Center North Septa's 841 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:59,839 needs for clarity and its planning 842 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:03,680 schedule. Uh the PC will meet on the 843 00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:06,320 16th uh at 7:00 and planning and zoning 844 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,320 on the 17th at 7:00. 845 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,280 Um, 846 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,920 and uh, we can get back to general 847 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,440 comments on planning and zoning in a 848 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,680 second. I want to move right into 849 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,240 outdoor commerce, give a little bit more 850 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,320 background, and turn it over to John. 851 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:25,680 And I thank the planning commission for 852 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,720 all of its hard work. Um 853 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:33,119 so um as I said the biggest difference 854 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:35,200 is you know whether we require curb uh 855 00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:38,400 height platforms 856 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,480 and there are differences in opinion on 857 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,280 this. One's not right, one's not wrong. 858 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:47,760 They're different different emphasises. 859 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:50,480 Um and um 860 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,520 after we had much discussion at our 861 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:57,440 meeting, which we only had the planning 862 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:59,040 commission's text a few hours before our 863 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,839 uh meeting, we thought it would be 864 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,079 appropriate to talk to Swathmore Town 865 00:36:01,839 --> 00:36:06,640 Center merchants and restaurant tours as 866 00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:11,359 well as public works about the planning 867 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:14,240 commission's revised approach. Um, and 868 00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:16,160 this will take us probably a week or 869 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:20,160 two. So, we're not going to be asking 870 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:22,640 for any, you know, uh, decisions made in 871 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,680 this cycle, but we want to try to keep 872 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:28,320 them all all moving. Um 873 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:31,599 and um 874 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:34,560 at this point as I said we just got 875 00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:36,079 today some you know interesting 876 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:40,320 additional 877 00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:42,720 uh quantification of potential cost. Uh 878 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:47,680 subsequent to that, members of the of 879 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:51,280 the committee uh met with our uh 880 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:54,720 uh PC liaison and talked about this and 881 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:57,119 what we hope that this is the next step 882 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,560 in discussion about what these costs 883 00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:02,640 are, how they could be met or not, and 884 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:07,040 uh take it from there. So, John, I'm 885 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:10,320 going to turn it over to you. Um and uh 886 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:12,800 now we can have a discussion on where we 887 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,119 are on this topic. 888 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:19,200 » Great. Thank you, David. Uh I'm John 889 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:21,119 McCallum. Um I am a um as David 890 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,320 mentioned, I'm a member of the SWAT 891 00:37:21,119 --> 00:37:25,839 planning commission. Um so just glad to 892 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,320 be here to be able to talk through some 893 00:37:25,839 --> 00:37:31,760 of the thinking behind um our latest 894 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:35,520 draft of this ordinance. And oh, you 895 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:39,240 know what? I think this 896 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,240 You turn that off, too. 897 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,839 » So close everybody. 898 00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:46,960 » It's all my fault. 899 00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:50,119 » Most things are. 900 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,119 » I understand. 901 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,520 » Exactly. 902 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,839 » While that while that's back up and or 903 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:01,440 about to be back up and running. 904 00:37:57,839 --> 00:38:05,920 » Yeah. But it's uh 905 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:08,079 so um we as a commission um met last 906 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,720 Wednesday on 2nd and recommended the 907 00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:15,119 latest draft be uh sent back to to 908 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:17,920 council for uh debate and um uh and 909 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:21,440 working of course through um planning 910 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:24,079 and zoning um along the way. So we did 911 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,320 receive a draft back in May. Um that 912 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:29,200 draft had uh sort of two different 913 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,079 parts. one was the ordinance form and 914 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,880 the other was uh in more of a resolution 915 00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:37,440 form. What we did for our work was 916 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:40,320 actually to consolidate the two in one 917 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:45,680 uh coherent ordinance. Uh the ordinance 918 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:48,079 we uh affectionately know as 1020.04 919 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,920 uh use of sidewalks and streets in town 920 00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:55,040 center. Uh I believe that's a a renaming 921 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:58,720 from um I can't remember what it it's 922 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:01,280 1020.0 4. Um, but what we're looking to 923 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:04,720 do here is actually uh adapt what we 924 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,720 received from PNZ. Um, and we folded in 925 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,240 most of that into the front end of this. 926 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,560 And we've structured this in such a way 927 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:13,920 where we talk more generally about 928 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,920 commercial use in the public right away. 929 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,079 And then we drill down eventually onto 930 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,079 parkletits. I I I I know we want to get 931 00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:22,960 to parkletits uh very quickly, but this 932 00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:25,359 is really a comprehensive look at all of 933 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,880 uh permitted commercial uses within the 934 00:39:25,359 --> 00:39:30,560 public right away. I'm not going to read 935 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:32,960 through all this uh clearly it's um uh 936 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,480 not necessary to for tonight, but I 937 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,560 encourage you all to get your eyes on 938 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,480 the draft if you haven't seen it uh thus 939 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:43,359 far. But you know this covers everything 940 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:46,240 from the burough's um uh position uh and 941 00:39:43,359 --> 00:39:49,520 uh this use of the public realm as a 942 00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:52,400 privilege for uh for those uh those 943 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,400 commercial proprietors and uh you know 944 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,880 the need for any fixtures or any other 945 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,880 improvements to be temporary and be 946 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,720 removable should uh should the bureau 947 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:04,640 need them to be removed for any any 948 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:06,400 reason. Um and so on. So that then it 949 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,119 sort of starts generally and then we get 950 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:13,520 into use of sidewalks uh display of 951 00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:17,359 goods where is merchandise um and uh and 952 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,200 or outdoor seating. Um and uh there is 953 00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:22,240 one provision in there that talks about 954 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,880 the requirement to maintain a a pathway 955 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:27,599 a clear pathway free of any uh any 956 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,000 fixtures, displays or seating that is at 957 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:33,440 a minimum of 5t. Previously that was 4 958 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,440 ft. Um I think we we uh we along with 959 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,839 P&Z have have gotten comfortable with 960 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,000 the 5t. The rationale there is that two 961 00:40:37,839 --> 00:40:42,079 people can kind of comfortably pass one 962 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:47,040 another on the sidewalk. It's a standard 963 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:51,440 with for ADA turnaround all that. Um so 964 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:53,440 um in addition um 965 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,079 we also include outdoor commercial 966 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,480 product display and sales limitations. 967 00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,920 Um and I think that's uh that's pretty 968 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,200 straightforward. Again, I encourage you 969 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,720 all to read the draft. Um, I think for 970 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,040 tonight's purposes, we want to get to 971 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:10,000 the discussion points here. We do under 972 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,599 general outdoor dining regul uh 973 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:16,400 regulations 974 00:41:11,599 --> 00:41:19,520 um uh we do uh permit year round um 975 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:22,079 dining uh regulations. So, year round 976 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,119 use. So, that is something that's put uh 977 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:29,280 explicitly within this um within this 978 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:31,040 ordinance. Um, and then we do uh also 979 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,520 prohibit any enclosed or roof 980 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,520 structures. 981 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,640 Talked a little bit about furniture, the 982 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:41,200 need for them to be durable, maintained, 983 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,200 uh visual consistency. You know, we're 984 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,680 we're really trying to kind of clean up 985 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,720 and make much more clear uh what we're 986 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:53,720 requiring of uh retailers and merchants 987 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:53,720 within uh within the public right away. 988 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,480 Um I'm going to move directly then to 989 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,400 parklets. So then we really drill down 990 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,920 specifically on parklets and um again 991 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,640 this is really intended to be a 992 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,880 comprehensive solution and uh one that 993 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,599 we would really prefer not to be pulled 994 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:15,119 apart um but is really driven by the 995 00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:17,760 priorities of uh ensuring safety, 996 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,599 ensuring accessibility and ensuring uh 997 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,599 the quality of the public realm. That's 998 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:24,160 really what's driving our thinking 999 00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:28,079 behind carpets. And to the point of 1000 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,680 safety, um I'm going to just bring up a 1001 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:32,960 diagram here so we're not just staring 1002 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:37,119 at a text. 1003 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:39,520 Um this is a sketch um that we prepare 1004 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:41,359 to to lay out the requirements of a 1005 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:46,319 typical parklet. Now, in this case, this 1006 00:42:41,359 --> 00:42:48,079 is a a parallel parking spot. Um and uh 1007 00:42:46,319 --> 00:42:50,720 in terms of safety, there's really three 1008 00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:52,640 components to it. The first is safety 1009 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:55,839 from vehicles. We're talking about 1010 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:58,000 people dining in in literally in the 1011 00:42:55,839 --> 00:43:01,119 road directly adjacent to a travel lane. 1012 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,920 And one thing that we have yet to see um 1013 00:43:01,119 --> 00:43:05,680 really effectively thus far since the 1014 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,079 introduction of park lights is a 1015 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:11,119 significant barrier that uh provides a 1016 00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:13,200 certain measure of buffer uh from 1017 00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:15,280 vehicles should they lose control or 1018 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:18,079 otherwise stray out of that travel lane 1019 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,960 and impact a part. So what we're uh 1020 00:43:18,079 --> 00:43:24,240 suggesting here in in our draft is a 1021 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,720 significant um sign significant 1022 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:28,720 vehicular barrier um but one that can be 1023 00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:30,640 a planter uh something of significant 1024 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:34,000 weight. We give some perform performance 1025 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:37,280 criteria in our text uh to to specify 1026 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,440 what the weight of that is um and uh 1027 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,079 dimensional criteria. We do think that 1028 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,160 that barrier can can uh be right at the 1029 00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:46,240 edge of the travel lane um because we 1030 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,720 really do want to maximize as much of 1031 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:51,760 that parklet platform as possible. But 1032 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:54,480 these would be significant um barriers 1033 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:57,119 again should uh should the worst happen 1034 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,960 and it uh it it provides measure of 1035 00:43:57,119 --> 00:44:01,920 safety for the people dying on the 1036 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:04,800 platform. The second layer of uh 1037 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,319 security here is this guardrail uh that 1038 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,599 you can see on three sides of the 1039 00:44:06,319 --> 00:44:12,160 parklet. And uh this is to ensure that 1040 00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:14,480 people aren't um aren't falling off by 1041 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,280 accident. The platform falling into the 1042 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:20,319 travel lane. This would be a 42-in high 1043 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,240 typical um guard rail that you would 1044 00:44:20,319 --> 00:44:24,240 find anywhere else uh where you're 1045 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:27,040 needing to uh to keep people from 1046 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:29,119 accessing a different area. So um that 1047 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,920 has its own performance criteria. We've 1048 00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:36,640 included that in in the ordinance. Um 1049 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:38,720 thirdly, we are um we are including a a 1050 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,280 requirement for wheel stops at either 1051 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:43,599 side of the parklet platform. We have 1052 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,000 parking spaces often times adjacent to 1053 00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:48,560 these parkletits. We don't want people 1054 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,640 accidentally straying too far forward or 1055 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,880 backing up into the platform could cause 1056 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,280 a real issue of safety. So, uh just 1057 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,920 simple wheel stops 3 ft minimum off the 1058 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,400 edge of the of the park platform. 1059 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:03,280 um we do feel like those can encroach 1060 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:06,079 within the adjacent uh um parking 1061 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,520 spaces. That's yet not clarified in the 1062 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:10,160 text, but that's something we can 1063 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,920 address. Um 1064 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,599 so that really sort of covers things 1065 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,200 from a safety standpoint. From an 1066 00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:17,280 accessibility standpoint, and this 1067 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:20,319 really gets directly to what uh David 1068 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:24,880 started to introduce uh is the platform. 1069 00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:27,280 Um we have found uh in in uh all of our 1070 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,760 work looking at precedents for platforms 1071 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:33,359 or for uh parklets that platforms are 1072 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:36,560 commonly accepted uh and encouraged by 1073 00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:40,079 municipalities to ensure uh barrierfree 1074 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:43,920 access to uh parkletits. Uh we find it 1075 00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:45,920 problematic um today's condition where 1076 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,440 uh parkletits those dining areas are 1077 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,960 actually sunken down in the bed of the 1078 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:53,680 street. uh it presents a step down. Um 1079 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:56,240 but it also means you know the surface 1080 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,480 of the street is intended to be the 1081 00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,880 surface of the dining uh the dining 1082 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,640 area. Whatever slope you have for that 1083 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,200 street that cross slope that's what you 1084 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,440 have for the for the dining surface. We 1085 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:10,000 really feel like it's a problem from an 1086 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,240 ADA accessibility standpoint. And 1087 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,560 introducing a platform 1088 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:16,560 literally levels the playing field. It 1089 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,520 levels the surface. It it gives us 1090 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:22,000 control to create as level as possible. 1091 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,720 It may not always be achievable given 1092 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,960 the um the existing conditions that we 1093 00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:29,040 have throughout our town, but at least 1094 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:33,280 we're doing the best that we can. We're 1095 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:36,880 making a a good measured steps to uh try 1096 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:41,920 to rectify um a potentially inaccessible 1097 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:44,480 condition. Um, so, um, you know, we we 1098 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,440 we've, uh, discussed openly about other 1099 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,440 ways of satisfying ADA regulations. 1100 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,079 Would it would it work to have an 1101 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,240 accessible table along the sidewalk, 1102 00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:58,000 allowing the parklet perhaps not to need 1103 00:46:54,240 --> 00:47:01,119 to be accessible? or could we introduce 1104 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,119 um uh ramps that get uh folks in 1105 00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:05,520 wheelchairs or who are otherwise 1106 00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:08,560 mobility challenged down to the lower 1107 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,400 level of the of the uh parklet. We 1108 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,079 really feel like any one of those 1109 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:16,960 solutions are kind of um episodic and 1110 00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:19,200 not um really showing a conviction 1111 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,280 behind uh creating and achieving a 1112 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,680 barrier-free environment. And I think we 1113 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,680 all agree we want as inclusive and 1114 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,640 barrierfree environment as we possibly 1115 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:33,040 can achieve for our um for our public 1116 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:35,680 realm within reason. Um and it's our uh 1117 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:39,040 our take and now the commission's take 1118 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:42,319 um as recommended last week 1119 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:45,520 that uh the platform solution given its 1120 00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:48,560 ubiquity should be achievable. Um, do we 1121 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:51,359 have the answer to make it uh to to uh 1122 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,880 ensure that it's affordable? 1123 00:47:51,359 --> 00:47:55,599 Um, 1124 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:58,960 uh, right now we think we we've come 1125 00:47:55,599 --> 00:48:00,720 certain some way. Um, but, uh, I think 1126 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,560 there's more work to do. But I think 1127 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:05,920 what's important is that we set our 1128 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:08,480 sights high. We uh, we have some measure 1129 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,319 of aspiration behind um, what we're 1130 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,800 trying to achieve in the public realm. 1131 00:48:10,319 --> 00:48:16,160 and to to sort of acknowledge that what 1132 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:18,400 we have today is not acceptable. Um, but 1133 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:21,040 that uh we want to achieve that that 1134 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:23,680 that safety, that accessibility, and 1135 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:26,559 that general quality of the public realm 1136 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,880 that we think this this uh bureau really 1137 00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:32,240 deserves. Um, and we don't think it's 1138 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:35,040 really that big of a lift. This is 1139 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:37,520 common across the country, and I think 1140 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,520 this is something we can figure out. So, 1141 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,680 um, there's been back and forth. We've 1142 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,760 uh I know Doug who's joined me or Doug 1143 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,359 Karnsburgger has has done quite a bit of 1144 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,640 work looking into the planters 1145 00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:52,559 themselves. Um he's found a a great 1146 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:55,359 source out of Iowa for um for a number 1147 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:56,640 of these planters to be provided. Um I'm 1148 00:48:55,359 --> 00:48:58,880 not going to quote the cost because 1149 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:02,400 frankly I can't remember the exact cost 1150 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:06,400 but uh to be purchased uh delivered 1151 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:09,280 installed uh using a forklift and um 1152 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,839 those would be uh uh provided as that 1153 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:14,640 sort of vehicular barrier uh component 1154 00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:16,880 of this design. The platform component 1155 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:20,559 of the design we have started to work 1156 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:24,880 through an idea that um I'll try to 1157 00:49:20,559 --> 00:49:26,319 bring that up. I'm sorry guys. 1158 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:30,640 That's sort of outlined in these 1159 00:49:26,319 --> 00:49:32,640 sketches. So, um 1160 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:36,880 park plates are in the public realm. 1161 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:39,119 They need to be uh um easily assembled, 1162 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:43,040 easily disassembled, should they need to 1163 00:49:39,119 --> 00:49:44,640 be removed. Um and or just should a 1164 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,880 portion of it need to be removed. So, 1165 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,040 the idea here is actually to create 1166 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,440 something that's modular. Uh in this 1167 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:54,960 case, we've as a test case taken a 1168 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:57,119 parking space that's 6 feet by 18 feet 1169 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,640 uh long. It does account for the space 1170 00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:02,960 that's required for those vehicular 1171 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:06,079 barriers. And uh it it uh uses a module 1172 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:09,440 of 3 ft by 3 ft. So uh these these are 1173 00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:12,880 panels that you put down uh in uh on the 1174 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:15,359 road. They're leveled with adjustable um 1175 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,760 pedestals uh that are structural and 1176 00:50:15,359 --> 00:50:19,599 would support each each module. And then 1177 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:23,040 together they're all ganged together as 1178 00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:26,720 the parklet platform. They can be um uh 1179 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:30,160 built with the handrailing as well and 1180 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:31,760 um built offsite in a shop um and 1181 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,079 delivered to the site and assembled 1182 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,400 pretty quickly. Uh so what you see here 1183 00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:39,040 is basically just sort of a a codified 1184 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,880 plan in the upper left that labels the 1185 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,079 modules and then we break down each 1186 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,960 module uh in terms of its detailing. It 1187 00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:49,119 can be done by a a general contractor. 1188 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,680 Does not have to be a very expensive 1189 00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:54,079 prefab like you know similar to what we 1190 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,960 had been looking at earlier. David um 1191 00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:59,119 does not need to be $30,000 uh dollars. 1192 00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,880 We actually have a general contractor on 1193 00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:03,520 sitting on the planning commission which 1194 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:06,079 is very convenient. a good good builder 1195 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:09,839 uh Steve Mitten who uh worked through an 1196 00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:12,960 estimate um on this scheme and uh I 1197 00:51:09,839 --> 00:51:17,200 think in his uh in the middle of his 1198 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:20,720 pricing he he came out to about $12,500 1199 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:23,839 um estimated based on his experience, 1200 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:25,680 just an estimate, but um in that range 1201 00:51:23,839 --> 00:51:29,119 for something like this, which again 1202 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:33,280 could be done by a general contractor um 1203 00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:36,720 and uh and assembled uh conventional 1204 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:39,359 wood uh wood members and hardware that's 1205 00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:42,480 readily available. So this is one 1206 00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:44,480 approach. Um, thus far the draft uh 1207 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,200 ordinance that we have is not mandating 1208 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,680 an approach to this, but uh it could 1209 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,079 serve as an example and if we wanted to 1210 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:56,559 take it the next step and and um you 1211 00:51:52,079 --> 00:52:02,480 know organize an effort to um to uh uh 1212 00:51:56,559 --> 00:52:05,760 construct multiple um uh parklets um and 1213 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:07,760 uh and really organize that as an effort 1214 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,880 um and help to organize the financing. 1215 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,640 That's something that we could talk 1216 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,400 about. We do uh value deeply the 1217 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:17,119 apartments. Um I think it's really 1218 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:20,160 timely that we saw uh that painting from 1219 00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:22,319 Aram earlier. Yes, we want to encourage 1220 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,800 that vibrancy within our town. It's not 1221 00:52:22,319 --> 00:52:28,079 just a value to the merchants. It's of 1222 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:30,160 value to our town center and to to us as 1223 00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:32,160 residents. So we want to encourage that. 1224 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,520 We acknowledge that it's an additional 1225 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:39,599 cost, but uh that doesn't preclude the 1226 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:44,160 need to really um approach this with um 1227 00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:47,040 with a deliberate um uh set of 1228 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:49,040 aspirations that um really has, you 1229 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,119 know, that that requires a certain level 1230 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,359 of quality and and safety for our town 1231 00:52:51,119 --> 00:52:55,680 center. So, I'll I'll I'll leave it at 1232 00:52:53,359 --> 00:52:58,160 that and maybe open it up questions or 1233 00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:01,680 conversation. I know the platform 1234 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:05,200 probably is is maybe one subject, but 1235 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:08,720 feel free to ask talk about it. 1236 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:11,040 Thank you, John. Uh I 1237 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:14,720 we didn't quue it up for council to 1238 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:18,160 really review the entire proposal 1239 00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:23,200 uh as I said in my introduction uh this 1240 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:27,599 evening, but uh we really wanted to 1241 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:30,800 uh start kicking around ideas about 1242 00:53:27,599 --> 00:53:33,520 parkland versus no parkland amongst the 1243 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:38,400 members up here. get us some more 1244 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:44,079 guidance uh to raise concerns about um 1245 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:46,559 you know costs etc. Um you know 1246 00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:48,160 you know you mentioned that Doug had 1247 00:53:46,559 --> 00:53:50,880 some 1248 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:54,319 uh cost what the vehicular barriers 1249 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:59,040 might cost. Doug can you share that with 1250 00:53:54,319 --> 00:54:01,920 us? the Iowa contractor that 1251 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:05,599 goes. 1252 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,680 » Thank you. The the crash barriers that 1253 00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:10,559 John referred to are manufactured in 1254 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:12,880 Iowa, two other places in the Midwest. 1255 00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:16,400 So far, we have two bids or two quotes. 1256 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,920 The the lowest of them is approximately 1257 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:22,160 $8,200 1258 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:24,800 for 10 of them, which would amount to 1259 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:27,440 three crash barriers on the two Park 1260 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:31,119 Avenue sites and four crash barriers 1261 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,920 total on what was that cost? Sorry. 1262 00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:35,440 » 8,200 1263 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,359 » 8,200. And to that, the question of how 1264 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:40,800 they get moved, that needs to be 1265 00:54:37,359 --> 00:54:43,839 included. Uh the rental of a forklift 1266 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:47,760 at6 $650 1267 00:54:43,839 --> 00:54:51,040 has been quoted u by ENF Heartscaping 1268 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,880 which did the work of memorial. So 1269 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:56,960 combine those two numbers and you're 1270 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:59,280 close to $9,000 for the for the 10 1271 00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,520 barriers. Uh I'll just embellish a 1272 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:04,000 little to say that these these need to 1273 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:08,800 be filled with gravel and top soil and 1274 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:12,160 plants. So they come to us weighing uh 1275 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:16,000 950 lb. When they're filled, they're 1276 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:19,119 1,500 lb. So the the weight here is the 1277 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:21,520 important thing to remember. 1,500 lb of 1278 00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:24,880 dead weight for each of these three 1279 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,960 planters. There's 4,500 lb. So that's a 1280 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,920 significant 1281 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:32,000 barrier to keep the car truck from 1282 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,440 entering into the zone. And that's what 1283 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,240 we're trying to achieve here. This is 1284 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:39,599 not a unique solution. You can go to 1285 00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:42,559 media and see it at the silver pig on 1286 00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:45,200 the sidewalk. They have the same 1287 00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:48,440 at the silver pig. 1288 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,440 » A sterling 1289 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,799 is 1290 00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:54,720 I haven't been there. I just took a 1291 00:55:52,799 --> 00:55:57,839 photograph of it. So I show you that. 1292 00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:59,599 But any case has it, Laura Marion has 1293 00:55:57,839 --> 00:56:01,839 it, and Philadelphia has a useful 1294 00:55:59,599 --> 00:56:04,640 solution. So we're not inventing 1295 00:56:01,839 --> 00:56:06,319 something here. We're using precedent. 1296 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,680 And the key idea here is that they're 2 1297 00:56:06,319 --> 00:56:12,000 ft deep, 4 ft long. It's that 2ft 1298 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:16,480 dimension that allows the depth of the 1299 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:19,920 parklet to remain between 5' 6 and 5 and 1300 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:22,960 6 ft in depth. So I think it's it's an 1301 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:24,799 elegant structural solution. And I would 1302 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,440 just emphasize because this is something 1303 00:56:24,799 --> 00:56:29,440 that I've spent a lot of time looking at 1304 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,079 is that we need to provide this 1305 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,480 protection in our bureau. We've we've 1306 00:56:32,079 --> 00:56:38,799 skated without such protection for the 6 1307 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:40,799 years since co but I'm I'm aware that 1308 00:56:38,799 --> 00:56:42,880 accidents happen and I've been involved 1309 00:56:40,799 --> 00:56:45,280 in one of those accidents professionally 1310 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:48,000 and the bureau does not want to go there 1311 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:51,440 as far as allowing u the possibility of 1312 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:53,119 an accident in this situation. So even 1313 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,799 in terms of priority, I think it's the 1314 00:56:53,119 --> 00:56:58,079 number one priority to protect the 1315 00:56:54,799 --> 00:56:59,920 bureau's interest as we address the 1316 00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:00,480 other issues that John mentioned. 1317 00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:01,200 » Thank you, D. 1318 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,079 » Thanks, Dad. 1319 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:06,559 » Um, so, 1320 00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:09,920 you know, as I 1321 00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:12,720 said at the top, we weren't really 1322 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:15,359 queuing this up for the council to do a 1323 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:20,720 whole die. We wanted to get some input 1324 00:57:15,359 --> 00:57:24,799 on uh the issue of platforms versus node 1325 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:26,880 platforms, the cost of platforms. Um you 1326 00:57:24,799 --> 00:57:33,760 know there's all sorts of different ways 1327 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:36,960 of of doing this. Um and um you know I 1328 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:39,440 want to make it clear that when the 1329 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:42,400 uh planning uh planning and zoning and 1330 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:48,319 the council sent us on without platforms 1331 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:51,839 to uh the planning commission 1332 00:57:48,319 --> 00:57:54,319 we did so understanding that we needed 1333 00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:59,520 safety barriers we needed ADA 1334 00:57:54,319 --> 00:58:02,000 compliance. you know, you don't need 1335 00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,680 I'm not weighing in one way or the 1336 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,520 other. I'm just explaining that you 1337 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:08,160 don't need 1338 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:10,880 uh platforms have these barriers that 1339 00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:15,359 Doug just uh provided. I was driving 1340 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:18,160 through Maddio just over the weekend and 1341 00:58:15,359 --> 00:58:21,440 right down I guess that's main street 1342 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:23,599 Manunk all sorts of parklets all at 1343 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,160 street level all with what I think they 1344 00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:29,040 call jersey plastic jersey barriers 1345 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,319 probably filled with water uh they're 1346 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:34,559 different ways they're different 1347 00:58:30,319 --> 00:58:37,839 solutions uh I've even been mentioning 1348 00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:40,079 in our discussions that 1349 00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:42,720 on the safety end on the crash barrier 1350 00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:45,760 ers. It may be something that we as a 1351 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,839 burrow want to make sure are in place. 1352 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,240 Does it change the fee? Does it are 1353 00:58:47,839 --> 00:58:53,520 there ways of recovering those costs? 1354 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:57,599 But you know, putting safety paramount, 1355 00:58:53,520 --> 00:59:01,119 you know, over the um you know, very 1356 00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:05,440 many ways that you could have a 1357 00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:06,799 a parklet. So our members of our 1358 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:10,240 committee will be talking with 1359 00:59:06,799 --> 00:59:13,839 restaurant tours and uh town center 1360 00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:16,559 people etc and trying to advance this 1361 00:59:13,839 --> 00:59:20,960 very conversation. Uh I talked to Doug 1362 00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:25,839 this afternoon uh after getting um 1363 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:28,079 this uh cost estimates from uh John and 1364 00:59:25,839 --> 00:59:30,720 Steve and he said oh you know this is 1365 00:59:28,079 --> 00:59:33,200 step one let us look and see if there 1366 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:37,119 are other structures and other ways we 1367 00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:41,040 can suggest that might reduce the cost. 1368 00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:43,040 So I think we're all moving in the same 1369 00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:46,319 direction. I just don't think we've 1370 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:49,200 converged on a final spot at this point. 1371 00:59:46,319 --> 00:59:51,280 » Okay. Um, so would you like to open it 1372 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,400 up for discussion or it's going to go 1373 00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,000 back to committee? 1374 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:57,440 » It's going to go back to committee and 1375 00:59:54,000 --> 01:00:00,640 then probably back to uh uh depending on 1376 00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:03,440 what the committee does. It it may come 1377 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:05,520 right back to us. It may go back to the 1378 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:08,640 planning commission. We're working as 1379 01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:12,160 collaboratively as possible on on this. 1380 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:14,079 So, um, yeah, I'm always interested in 1381 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,079 my colleagues views. 1382 01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:18,640 » I mean, I have a lot of questions, but 1383 01:00:16,079 --> 01:00:21,680 I'm thinking I'll hold them until 1384 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,079 something that looks like a close to 1385 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,280 final draft comes before us because who 1386 01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:27,040 knows, 1387 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,559 » Right? I I mean, we were just 1388 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,000 discussing, 1389 01:00:28,559 --> 01:00:32,559 you know, whether it was today or 1390 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:36,640 yesterday, you know, uh, Jill doesn't 1391 01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:39,119 take any days off. um that we um were 1392 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,520 saying, oh, it says something about two 1393 01:00:39,119 --> 01:00:44,640 parking spaces where it should only be 1394 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:46,799 one or two parking spaces depending on 1395 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,440 the configuration. We want to clean up 1396 01:00:46,799 --> 01:00:52,880 some language. I'm sure everybody wants 1397 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:55,119 to do the same thing there. So yes, uh 1398 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,000 uh I don't want to get into that level 1399 01:00:55,119 --> 01:01:00,720 of 1400 01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:03,680 » Nits on something where we all know that 1401 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:06,400 » Details are important, but if there are 1402 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:10,319 general questions about 1403 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:12,240 » Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I I I I definitely 1404 01:01:10,319 --> 01:01:14,559 acknowledge there are probably details 1405 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:16,720 to work through, but um you know, as as 1406 01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:19,599 I mentioned last Wednesday, uh the 1407 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:21,520 commission um voted to recommend the 1408 01:01:19,599 --> 01:01:23,040 draft. Um 1409 01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:26,000 » And I think you know, the fundamental 1410 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,920 pieces are in place um in terms of our 1411 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,359 recommendation back to council. 1412 01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:33,520 » Well, now that you're saying that, so 1413 01:01:29,359 --> 01:01:35,680 let me just ask my big question. Um it 1414 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,680 you're not saying like this would be 1415 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:40,480 once it's accepted that this would be a 1416 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:43,200 standard standardized way to build the 1417 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,880 parklets or are you saying that like if 1418 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,440 it's vote like this would be in the 1419 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,680 ordinance? 1420 01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,200 » Yeah. No, currently it's not it's not 1421 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,200 addressed like that. Currently it's 1422 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:54,000 open. We're giving performance criteria 1423 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:57,040 meaning you need a barrier in place of 1424 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:59,200 this size of this of this weight and and 1425 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,599 you need a platform that achieves flush 1426 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:03,520 a flush. you know, it's more general. Uh 1427 01:02:01,599 --> 01:02:04,720 that gives people flexibility in terms 1428 01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,799 of how to achieve it. 1429 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,119 » It does talk about building materials. 1430 01:02:06,799 --> 01:02:13,200 » It does. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, it it 1431 01:02:09,119 --> 01:02:14,799 puts uh restrictions on, you know, yes, 1432 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,520 this needs to be exterior grade 1433 01:02:14,799 --> 01:02:18,559 materials. They need to be kept uh you 1434 01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,720 know, maintained. 1435 01:02:18,559 --> 01:02:22,880 » Will there be like Harry the building 1436 01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,400 inspector? Will he be required to say 1437 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,319 yes, this meets the building 1438 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,640 requirements in the ordinance or is this 1439 01:02:26,319 --> 01:02:30,000 like I mean if it's for safety it has to 1440 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:33,599 reach a certain 1441 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:35,200 » Threshold standard. So who decides that 1442 01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:38,400 » It it goes through the bureau. So 1443 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:41,599 there's a there's a specific uh list of 1444 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:44,079 required items that uh are required to 1445 01:02:41,599 --> 01:02:45,920 to be submitted includes a plan includes 1446 01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:48,720 a list of materials 1447 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:52,000 » Um that has to be reviewed by uh by the 1448 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:53,440 bureau and then a permit is issued um 1449 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,520 and there's a fee associated. 1450 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:58,400 » That was my big question. Thank you. A 1451 01:02:55,520 --> 01:03:02,400 and we could have 1452 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:05,839 barriers up, crash barriers up quickly 1453 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:08,400 that would not impede whether we had 1454 01:03:05,839 --> 01:03:11,119 when we when and if we would have 1455 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:14,400 platforms following that. So we could be 1456 01:03:11,119 --> 01:03:17,359 addressing the main safety concerns 1457 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:22,480 quickly if we thought there needed to be 1458 01:03:17,359 --> 01:03:26,400 a transition period to allow um the 1459 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:29,520 whomever is providing these platforms to 1460 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:31,920 provide the platforms. The restaurant 1461 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:34,480 tours generally don't own the property. 1462 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,799 You know that they may only be there for 1463 01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,640 a couple of years. Do they take their 1464 01:03:36,799 --> 01:03:40,960 platforms with us? Is this something the 1465 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:43,920 landlord's providing? all of these types 1466 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:46,000 of practical financial issues are still 1467 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:49,599 a little bit up in the air. 1468 01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:52,480 » Could I could I ask a few questions? Um, 1469 01:03:49,599 --> 01:03:56,160 » So the platforms on Dartmouth it it 1470 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,039 would be sloped appropriately. So 1471 01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:00,400 that issue. 1472 01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:03,039 » Yeah, I think uh I think the road is a 1473 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:05,520 fairly significant slope and I think uh 1474 01:04:03,039 --> 01:04:08,319 essentially we would do the platform 1475 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,920 would do the best it can uh to mitigate 1476 01:04:08,319 --> 01:04:12,240 that slope. 1477 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,640 um is it going to be perfect and it's a 1478 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,400 letter of but again this is a 1479 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,640 pre-existing condition I think it would 1480 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,839 greatly greatly improve the slope that 1481 01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,400 that is there 1482 01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:22,640 » And 1483 01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:26,160 » And on Dartmouth the very question you 1484 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:28,960 raised as you level it are we creating a 1485 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:31,359 different trip hazard at the edge of the 1486 01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,359 platform or how do we address that and 1487 01:04:31,359 --> 01:04:34,720 and we have 1488 01:04:33,359 --> 01:04:36,799 » The barriers 1489 01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,480 » Well we would have to have entry 1490 01:04:36,799 --> 01:04:39,760 barriers or something you can only get 1491 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,000 through 1492 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,920 a a small point. 1493 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,520 » Again, we're not solving for for every 1494 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,160 condition because 1495 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,039 » What do you need? 1496 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:52,880 » Turn your microphones on, please. 1497 01:04:49,039 --> 01:04:55,119 » Okay. And then um 1498 01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:58,799 » What's there now? Right. There are 1499 01:04:55,119 --> 01:04:59,599 barriers. There are platforms. So, those 1500 01:04:58,799 --> 01:05:01,200 are platforms. 1501 01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:02,640 » The platform was all been taken out. 1502 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,200 » They were removed. Yeah. 1503 01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,599 » I haven't been out and about in 1504 01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,440 development. 1505 01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:11,039 » I know how it feels. 1506 01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:14,640 We'll give you a special business. 1507 01:05:11,039 --> 01:05:16,480 » Okay. Um 1508 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,720 then then my question is not relevant. 1509 01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:20,000 Uh but the the existing barrier barriers 1510 01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,480 are they there. The planters. 1511 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,200 » Yes. 1512 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:25,119 » Okay. So they just weren't heavy enough. 1513 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,319 » I think that's our that's our feeling. 1514 01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:28,400 Yeah. They're just not significant 1515 01:05:26,319 --> 01:05:31,440 enough. There needs to be real mass to 1516 01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,680 to these barriers to have any any impact 1517 01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,680 on car. And then I thought I saw very 1518 01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:38,960 quickly it said something about if you 1519 01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:40,960 have an existing parklet these 1520 01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,599 guidelines would be put you would have 1521 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,799 up until April of next year to 1522 01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:48,079 » That's right. That's what we're 1523 01:05:44,799 --> 01:05:52,160 currently you know ready for the warm 1524 01:05:48,079 --> 01:05:55,760 season. Um, it's something that that 1525 01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:58,640 » So, if I'm a merchant and I think you 1526 01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:04,000 said they they're around that the ROM is 1527 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:06,319 like 125, am I paying that? 1528 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:09,680 » Yeah. So, we're talking about that. So, 1529 01:06:06,319 --> 01:06:11,520 we we have been talking about, you know, 1530 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,680 » Is there a way to fund this to get like 1531 01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,200 a long-term learning through STC? So, 1532 01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,960 that's what we're trying to figure out. 1533 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,119 But we would come up with a solution for 1534 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,240 funding before the deadline. So they're 1535 01:06:19,119 --> 01:06:22,319 not just 1536 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,640 » Yes. I I think ideally we would give 1537 01:06:22,319 --> 01:06:26,400 proprietors a few options. You can take 1538 01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:28,480 these specs, go build it. If you have a 1539 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,720 contractor, if you want some financing, 1540 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:33,119 we're hoping 10 century so far has been 1541 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:36,240 very willing to work with us and and 1542 01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:38,960 maybe, you know, they give a xyear loan. 1543 01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:40,400 Um do we get a grant? Do we fund it? You 1544 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,440 know, give the to the bro give them some 1545 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,559 money to help them. 1546 01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:46,880 » Okay. and the April date was developed 1547 01:06:44,559 --> 01:06:50,160 early in this review process. We may 1548 01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:52,960 have to add some time into that timeline 1549 01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,720 in order to make it pragmatic. 1550 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:56,160 Again, just one of those details that 1551 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,079 needs to be worked out. 1552 01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:00,240 » Okay. Circling back to your initial 1553 01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:01,520 point about like we all love the parklex 1554 01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,000 because of like, you know, all of the 1555 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:06,640 things, right? Vibrancy, etc. Um, what 1556 01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:09,039 we would want to do is like I'm a big 1557 01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,960 fan of the platforms. Clearly, I thought 1558 01:07:09,039 --> 01:07:13,440 they were still there. 1559 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:15,680 Um I for all of the reasons that you 1560 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:18,880 described what what would would hate for 1561 01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:20,559 it to happen is because of the financial 1562 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,520 » Literally the financial barriers and 1563 01:07:20,559 --> 01:07:25,680 figuratively the barriers to entry 1564 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,799 um would make so that they don't come 1565 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,480 back. 1566 01:07:26,799 --> 01:07:31,039 » I think that's what we're all we're all 1567 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,799 agreeing with you definitely. Um and I 1568 01:07:31,039 --> 01:07:34,960 think that's that's step two is to 1569 01:07:32,799 --> 01:07:38,079 figure out how to how to achieve it so 1570 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:41,599 it's not such a barrier. And and if I 1571 01:07:38,079 --> 01:07:43,200 could just add Jana, like I you maybe 1572 01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:44,559 have talked about this even more than 1573 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,000 anybody else in the room, but like you 1574 01:07:44,559 --> 01:07:48,079 know I know that each of these decisions 1575 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,079 about parkletits has been so difficult 1576 01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:52,880 in the town central world. Everybody's 1577 01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:55,839 got an opinion. However, I do think that 1578 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:58,319 following like a lot of municipalities 1579 01:07:55,839 --> 01:08:01,839 put it like slap dash to Parklet during 1580 01:07:58,319 --> 01:08:03,119 CO and now it's like it's a 2.0 version. 1581 01:08:01,839 --> 01:08:04,880 They've had to grown up. They've had to 1582 01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:06,880 grow up, you know, know what the safety 1583 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,480 concerns are. And so I think that the 1584 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,319 message to the proprietors is really 1585 01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,599 going to be, yeah, it was great when, 1586 01:08:10,319 --> 01:08:12,960 you know, we were trying to keep your 1587 01:08:11,599 --> 01:08:14,400 business alive, but if you want to do 1588 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,640 this, it really, you know, you're taking 1589 01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:19,920 public space to do it. It has to be 1590 01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:21,600 within our um our vision and our safety 1591 01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:23,279 and, you know, we'll work with you, but 1592 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,880 nobody's trying to kill it by making it 1593 01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:25,600 so arduous. 1594 01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,279 » Sorry, Colin. 1595 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:32,480 » Can I just caution you against um using 1596 01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:35,120 burrow tax dollars to give to private 1597 01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:36,640 parties? There are state, you know, I 1598 01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,560 know there's some state main street 1599 01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,960 programs where they give grants that you 1600 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,440 could then hand out, but as to the 1601 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:44,880 burough's own tax revenues, that's not a 1602 01:08:43,440 --> 01:08:48,239 permitted use. 1603 01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:51,839 » Would you be distinguishing between the 1604 01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:55,440 platforms and the safety barriers there? 1605 01:08:51,839 --> 01:08:56,960 » So, I think I'm sorry, I apologize, but 1606 01:08:55,440 --> 01:08:58,239 the safety barriers is the thing that I 1607 01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:59,600 want to talk about because I think that 1608 01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:03,600 is something that we've been lacking for 1609 01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:05,600 a very long time. And I'll defer to Bob, 1610 01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:08,239 but if there are barriers that we can 1611 01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:11,279 utilize in any way, shape or place we 1612 01:09:08,239 --> 01:09:12,640 need to or at events that we have, then 1613 01:09:11,279 --> 01:09:14,719 I think that that's something that we 1614 01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:17,839 should have on hand. Um, and it has been 1615 01:09:14,719 --> 01:09:20,319 a a concern of mine for many years. 1616 01:09:17,839 --> 01:09:22,960 » Well, and that's one of the beauties of 1617 01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:26,319 and again, I'm not weighing in on any 1618 01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:28,480 particular technology of the waterfilled 1619 01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:30,960 jersey barriers. 1620 01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:34,560 You know, they're not as privy. you 1621 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:37,120 know, uh, uh, so there are there are 1622 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,960 tradeoffs, right? 1623 01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,159 » Bob, would you say that the same is true 1624 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,799 of a 1625 01:09:40,159 --> 01:09:44,480 » A crash barrier? 1626 01:09:42,799 --> 01:09:47,359 » I would if it's dedicated to one 1627 01:09:44,480 --> 01:09:49,359 property's use, you know, I I I 1628 01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:51,120 understand mayor's point. If you have 1629 01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:52,880 something that's movable, you use it for 1630 01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:54,400 special events, use it here or there, 1631 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,719 that's a burrow, that's a burrow 1632 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,320 property. But if it's being dedicated to 1633 01:09:56,719 --> 01:10:00,800 one particular business, I don't think 1634 01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,719 that's something you can do. Well, I 1635 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:06,239 would view that it's being dedicated to 1636 01:10:02,719 --> 01:10:08,880 the safety of our citizens uh versus a 1637 01:10:06,239 --> 01:10:11,880 parklet is being dedicated to the 1638 01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,880 business. 1639 01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:18,640 » I my caution stands. 1640 01:10:15,679 --> 01:10:21,120 » Thank you, sir. 1641 01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,960 » Anybody else have any burning um 1642 01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,560 questions or comments on parklets? 1643 01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:27,199 Because it's going to come back and 1644 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,640 maybe that's the just let it do its 1645 01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:30,000 thing. I just wanted to say that I think 1646 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,320 the planning commission has done exactly 1647 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:35,360 what I hoped they would do. I wanted 1648 01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:38,080 safety and accessibility addressed and 1649 01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:41,120 and thank you for doing that. And I 1650 01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:44,640 think that that those considerations 1651 01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:47,840 should be continued no matter what the 1652 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:51,600 cost is because they just they're just 1653 01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:53,600 not negotiable. Um and I fully 1654 01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:56,480 understand our solicitor's cautions 1655 01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:58,159 about using taxpayer money. I was going 1656 01:10:56,480 --> 01:11:01,520 to make the same one, but I didn't know 1657 01:10:58,159 --> 01:11:05,040 the legal background. So, thank you. 1658 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:06,880 » Yeah, I I just want to say too that um I 1659 01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:09,679 support what the planning commission has 1660 01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:13,120 done requiring platforms and safe 1661 01:11:09,679 --> 01:11:16,560 barriers for accessibility and safety. 1662 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:19,520 And we can all take a look at the uh 1663 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:22,480 telephone pole or poll in front of the 1664 01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:24,159 co-op that was hit by a truck a few 1665 01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:26,880 months ago. 1666 01:11:24,159 --> 01:11:29,679 it it still is all marked off. You can't 1667 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:32,320 walk down the sidewalk um in front of 1668 01:11:29,679 --> 01:11:35,520 the co-op. And if that had been a few 1669 01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:37,040 feet to the left, that could have been 1670 01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:41,120 Arya. 1671 01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:44,080 So um you know, just it it it's really 1672 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:46,400 important. So I I really also applaud 1673 01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:49,280 the planning commission for all its work 1674 01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:52,719 and advising us. Thank you. Well, we'll 1675 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:55,520 be back to you uh probably not next 1676 01:11:52,719 --> 01:12:00,960 week, but probably next month with more 1677 01:11:55,520 --> 01:12:04,400 on this. Uh so, and we um look forward 1678 01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:07,840 to working with members of the planning 1679 01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:12,000 commission on other concepts around 1680 01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:15,199 design standards and costs that may make 1681 01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,640 it less of a gulp for people to swallow, 1682 01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:19,120 you know. Uh 1683 01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,679 » Thanks, John. really appreciate it. 1684 01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:23,600 » Thank you. 1685 01:12:19,679 --> 01:12:26,320 » Um can we let um Mr. Petrosa go next? 1686 01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:29,920 » I'm I'm doing him next. Okay. 1687 01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:31,520 » I told uh my good friend that he I 1688 01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,719 didn't even think he needed to be here 1689 01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:36,400 tonight, but here we go. Riverview Road 1690 01:12:34,719 --> 01:12:39,840 » Regarding the application dealing with 1691 01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:41,520 properties at 541 545 Riverview Road. PC 1692 01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:43,679 working on the applicant. Transiting 1693 01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,199 officer, federal engineer recommends 1694 01:12:43,679 --> 01:12:48,719 approval of the proposed land 1695 01:12:45,199 --> 01:12:51,360 development plan for 541545 1696 01:12:48,719 --> 01:12:53,679 for review as amended or resubmitted by 1697 01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:57,840 the applicant, including granting the 1698 01:12:53,679 --> 01:13:00,800 waiver from section 128609 to allow for 1699 01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:03,280 a combination combined preliminary and 1700 01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:06,640 final land development application and 1701 01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:09,920 from uh section 10246E 1702 01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:12,320 to allow a curb cut over 12 ft to the uh 1703 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:15,440 proposed 24 ft to facilitate traffic 1704 01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:17,760 flow and access by emergency 1705 01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:20,320 and planning and zoning concurs with 1706 01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,880 that recommendation. And given the 1707 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:25,280 extensions granted by the applicant and 1708 01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:27,679 all and that all matters seem to be 1709 01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:30,080 resolved, I'd like to move for approval 1710 01:13:27,679 --> 01:13:33,840 of the application as revised and 1711 01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:35,120 recommended by the planning commission. 1712 01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,199 So moved. 1713 01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:39,440 » Is there a second? 1714 01:13:37,199 --> 01:13:41,600 » Second. I'm going to ask you to amend 1715 01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:43,600 that you just add a condition that the 1716 01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:45,120 um the applicant enter into a 1717 01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:47,040 development agreement and financial 1718 01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:49,679 security agreement to the satisfaction 1719 01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:51,760 of the citizens. We don't always require 1720 01:13:49,679 --> 01:13:54,719 them, but this project I think is going 1721 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:57,120 to require some some fur oversight and 1722 01:13:54,719 --> 01:13:59,360 making sure that the sidewalks and 1723 01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:00,960 streets get restored and connected 1724 01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,719 properly. 1725 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,960 » As amended, Dave. A 1726 01:14:02,719 --> 01:14:06,560 » As amended. And I asked Don if they 1727 01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:09,679 would have any problems with that just 1728 01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:11,679 so no problem. So as amended by 1729 01:14:09,679 --> 01:14:13,280 solicitor 1730 01:14:11,679 --> 01:14:16,159 » Second. 1731 01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:19,880 » Any further comments? 1732 01:14:16,159 --> 01:14:19,880 » Jared, do you have a comment? 1733 01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:25,360 Yeah, I'm going to call the question and 1734 01:14:22,719 --> 01:14:28,000 thank everybody for finding a solution 1735 01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:30,080 to something at the top of Riverview 1736 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,920 Road, which has been a question for as 1737 01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,560 long as I've been here and probably 1738 01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:37,199 almost everybody's been here. So, I'll 1739 01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,360 call the question. Thank you. 1740 01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:40,159 All 1741 01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:42,320 » In favor. 1742 01:14:40,159 --> 01:14:46,800 » Anyone? 1743 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:48,239 » All right. Uh for a second later on in 1744 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:51,679 the agenda under public works, there's a 1745 01:14:48,239 --> 01:14:53,760 motion to approve a traffic sign 1746 01:14:51,679 --> 01:14:56,239 » Which relates to the same project. 1747 01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,600 » Okay. Did you want to handle it that way 1748 01:14:56,239 --> 01:14:59,520 so we can get out of here? 1749 01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:00,560 » Yeah, I think 1750 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:04,000 incorporate that. 1751 01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:05,679 » I'll defer to Jared then 1752 01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,760 to to you. 1753 01:15:05,679 --> 01:15:10,080 » Okay. Uh so in connection with this 1754 01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:11,679 project um right 1755 01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,679 » There's a a traffic signal problem. 1756 01:15:11,679 --> 01:15:15,920 there was a traffic signal that was uh 1757 01:15:13,679 --> 01:15:19,040 placed 1758 01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:21,760 um at at Baltimore Pike and River Road 1759 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,960 uh encroached on private property built. 1760 01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:26,800 I don't know how many years ago that 1761 01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:28,560 was, but um anyways, in order to to get 1762 01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:32,480 pendon approval for what they're doing, 1763 01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:34,080 they need to either move that over or 1764 01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:36,480 they need to get an easement from the 1765 01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:38,640 property owner, which is his client. His 1766 01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:40,960 client's willing to give an easement to 1767 01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:43,600 the burrow so we can keep it where it 1768 01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,520 is. and then hand off the traffic. So, 1769 01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:49,840 uh there's a traffic signal agreement 1770 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:51,440 which uh Bob has reviewed um that would 1771 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:54,000 accomplish this. I'll move the 1772 01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:56,320 acceptance of the travel traffic signal 1773 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:59,320 agreement. 1774 01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:59,320 » Second. 1775 01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,480 Do I have is that up here? Do we have 1776 01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:05,520 that? Oh, yeah. That's in our packet. 1777 01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:08,719 Okay. 1778 01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:12,800 » Um any comments, questions? All in 1779 01:16:08,719 --> 01:16:14,640 favor? I oppose. Motion carries. 1780 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:17,920 » All right. Back to planning and zoning 1781 01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:21,120 if that's all right, Mr. 1782 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:23,760 Manager. Um, 1783 01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:26,960 regarding artificial turf, uh, one of 1784 01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:29,199 the many, uh, concerns raised by the 1785 01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:31,600 public and noted by council in its memo 1786 01:16:29,199 --> 01:16:34,000 to planning commission on camp field is 1787 01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,760 artificial turf. uh planning themselves 1788 01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,679 to release that it might be timely to 1789 01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:40,239 address artificial turf worldwide 1790 01:16:37,679 --> 01:16:43,960 through some type of restriction. 1791 01:16:40,239 --> 01:16:43,960 The uh 1792 01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:48,080 uh PC liaison to planning and zoning 1793 01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,679 thought it's sufficient to hear from 1794 01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:53,360 planning and zoning on this matter and 1795 01:16:49,679 --> 01:16:56,159 not necessary for come at this juncture. 1796 01:16:53,360 --> 01:17:00,159 As mentioned earlier, planning and zing 1797 01:16:56,159 --> 01:17:02,400 has uh decided not to send anything to 1798 01:17:00,159 --> 01:17:04,159 the planning comm uh commission until we 1799 01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:06,239 hear from the solicitor and zoning 1800 01:17:04,159 --> 01:17:08,719 officer to whom we have sent some 1801 01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:11,600 inquiries which we have heard from this 1802 01:17:08,719 --> 01:17:13,600 afternoon. Uh we will consider all of 1803 01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:16,000 this at our next meeting and get back to 1804 01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:18,480 you one way or the another for our 1805 01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:20,800 October cycle. The scope of our 1806 01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:23,199 discussion ranged from ban on new 1807 01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:25,840 installations of artificial turf to 1808 01:17:23,199 --> 01:17:28,000 treating artificial turf as hardcape for 1809 01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:30,800 lockage with the former getting the 1810 01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:33,120 majority of our support. Our current 1811 01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,600 rules and regulations do not address 1812 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:37,360 artificial turf. During the over one and 1813 01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:39,280 a half years of discussion regarding 1814 01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:41,199 Cunningham field, we have found ways of 1815 01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:43,280 providing the college with guidance 1816 01:17:41,199 --> 01:17:45,920 about what may or may not be acceptable 1817 01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:47,920 at Cunningham. For example, we have sent 1818 01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,760 to the college strong signals about the 1819 01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:52,480 importance of the 200 foot transition 1820 01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:54,880 zone, preserving mature trees, strict 1821 01:17:52,480 --> 01:17:57,600 views of the colleges to be allowed to 1822 01:17:54,880 --> 01:18:00,159 install lighting or amplifies sound and 1823 01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:02,080 parking requirements. These informal 1824 01:18:00,159 --> 01:18:04,400 conversations have hopefully provided 1825 01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:06,000 the college with greater insight as it 1826 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:09,199 continues to develop plans for 1827 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:11,360 Cunningham Field, a policy direction on 1828 01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:15,360 artificial turf should add to that 1829 01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:18,239 clarity. We're not asking for a vote on 1830 01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:20,480 uh this cycle in artificial turf or 1831 01:18:18,239 --> 01:18:23,679 making a particular proposal. We wanted 1832 01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:25,600 to let full council and the public know 1833 01:18:23,679 --> 01:18:27,920 that we were discussing this matter at 1834 01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,760 committee and thought we would provide 1835 01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:31,920 other members with an opportunity to 1836 01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:34,320 give us feedback. 1837 01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:37,280 So, if there's any comment you'd like us 1838 01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:39,840 to be considering as we, you know, 1839 01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:43,199 ponder this issue and uh come back to 1840 01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:47,040 you hopefully as early as next month. Uh 1841 01:18:43,199 --> 01:18:51,280 we are all ears now or as you all know 1842 01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:53,199 always accessible to each and everyone. 1843 01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:56,239 » Does anyone have anything to share on 1844 01:18:53,199 --> 01:18:58,560 TUR? I know that individually we've been 1845 01:18:56,239 --> 01:19:01,760 reading and digesting and trying to 1846 01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:04,400 understand. So that process should 1847 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:06,480 continue and it will be in committee and 1848 01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:08,400 please feel free to go and share your 1849 01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:11,600 thoughts. 1850 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:13,600 Very good. Uh and I believe that is 1851 01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,840 everything. Thank you for your patience 1852 01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,400 and your input. Can we take a one 1853 01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:20,719 minute? 1854 01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:20,719 » Yes. We're in recess for a minute.